The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide with Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy: Recent Episodes
Curt Widhalm, LMFT and Katie Vernoy, LMFT
The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Where Therapists Live, Breathe, and Practice as Human Beings
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when clinicians must develop a personal brand to market their private practices, and are connecting over social media, engaging in social activism, pushing back against mental health stigma, and facing a whole new style of entrepreneurship.
To support you as a whole person, a business owner, and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Humor in Psychotherapy Curt and Katie chat about the benefits and challenges of using humor in the therapy room. We look at the research exploring how humor is used, potential risks, and best practices. We work to infuse humor, even as we take our therapeutic humor pretty seriously. This is a continuing education podcourse. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can best work within treatment teams Anecdotal evidence suggests that humor can have positive effects on therapeutic relationship development and as a skill that can be used for interventions. Concerns that humor may be used incorrectly or be potentially harmful make many clinicians wary of utilizing humor in therapy and empirical research is in its infancy about how it can be used effectively. This podcast episode explores the themes of therapeutic humor, which populations might present with different humor styles, and cultural considerations when using humor. What are the beneficial uses of humor in therapy? · Authenticity versus rigidity · Serious versus humorous interactions · Irreverence in DBT · Humor must come from within your own personality, it is not something that is teachable · Within the relationship and the therapeutic alliance, humor can increase connection · Using humor as a therapist can address power imbalances · Opportunities to challenge beliefs and shift behavior with a lighter touch · Diffusing situations, gallows humor, and moving on from challenging situations What are the risks of using humor in therapy? · When clients don’t understand the humor, it can cause iatrogenic harm · Confusion on the intent of humor · Confusion regarding the connection fostered by humor (i.e., could be seen as seduction) · Humor can be a distraction or a way to deflect from the therapeutic work · Humor can be seen as reinforcing power imbalances, especially when the client sees the humor as an insult, criticism, or the therapist putting the client down · Clients may not be able to give feedback on their reactions to humor · Self-deprecating or self-pitying humor is not recommended in therapy What is in the research on using humor in therapy? · Not a lot of research · Research on humor in therapy is usually done with western therapists and clients · It is important to understand the different cultural impacts on humor · There is research on the 7 stages and themes of humor within therapy · Assessing the use of banter in therapy · Identifying whether aggressive humor can improve outcomes in therapy · Misapplication of humor as confrontation versus using it for facilitation How can therapists use humor effectively in therapy? · Assess jokes and humorous interactions from the lens of it being for the benefit of the client · Focus on “reading the room,” so you’re not using humor inappropriately · Connecting and affirming your understanding of the client’s experience · Balancing activities in session (business time versus fun time) · Using humor as a diagnostic tool · Addressing ruptures or potential ruptures caused by humor
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/ Continuing Education Approvals: Continuing Education Information including grievance and refund policies.
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
How Therapists Can Deal with the Crisis of the Week Curt and Katie chat about a typical dynamic that can happen in therapy sessions, namely the “crisis of the week.” We look at how this dynamic comes up and what therapists can do to deal with it more effectively. We identify both clinician and client factors and suggest strategies to improve therapy sessions. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we explore how therapy can get stuck responding to the crisis of the week During one of our Patreon coffee hour/Q+A sessions, we got a request from a patron to talk about how to navigate client sessions that were mostly focused on worrisome incidences from the week, rather than on treatment goals. What is “Crisis of the Week?” · When therapy gets stuck with only talking about what has happened in the week · Crises take precedent over treatment goals · There are also biases in how this topic has been brought up during training or supervision for early career clinicians How do therapists determine whether the “crisis of the week” conversations are helpful · If conversations are repetitive or there is little progress made, these conversations are likely not helpful · “Crisis of the week” can be conversations from clients and (for kids) their parents · If the conversations align with treatment goals, they are more likely to be helpful How can therapists mitigate the concerns related to “crisis of the week”? · Making sure to talk about the therapy and determine whether the treatment goals are appropriate for the client · Providing structure on how to work on therapy goals can help make therapy more effective · Making sure that you’re hearing the client and then redirect to treatment goals or the client’s hopes for therapy · Making sure that everyone is on the same page with how the treatment progresses · Insight into why there is a tendency to go to the crisis of the week What are the clinician factors in getting stuck in a “crisis of the week” conversation? · Feeling uncomfortable with structuring therapy · Allowing the client to lead, when they are not ready to do so · Potentially not taking responsibility for the session due to laziness, burnout, or other concern · Therapists not clarifying expectations early enough in treatment What are the client factors in getting stuck in a “crisis of the week” conversation? · Clients are fearful and potentially using a decoy issue to avoid discussing a more relevant · Clients may be having a trauma response that leads to speaking about safer topics · Clients are not yet comfortable enough with the therapist to dig deeper · Clients do not have the skills to manage the topic · Cultural factors could impact communication and expectations What conversations can therapists have with clients related to avoiding crisis of the week? · Setting up structure for sessions · Addressing the relational elements related to attachment and getting to the clinical work · Identifying how to address it when “crisis of the week” happens · Determining how best to start your session with each client
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Making Sense of Insurance Billing and Client Referral Services for Therapists Curt and Katie chat about a lot of the different services that therapists can sign up for to provide therapy. We talk about Alma, Headway, TalkSpace, BetterHelp, etc. We also look at what therapists should consider when deciding which service to sign up for (or whether they should). Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we explore therapist insurance referral services like Alma and Headway We’ve been asked to weigh in on insurance referral services like Alma and Headway. We explore the different things to consider when choosing a service to sign up for. What client referral services should therapists sign up for? · Betterhelp and TalkSpace models do not include insurance billing and pay therapists very little. We do not recommend therapists sign up as providers on BetterHelp and TalkSpace. · Alma, Headway, and other similar models get therapists credentialed, bill insurance, etc. · These services are very different and there are a lot of choices for therapists to make What are questions therapists should consider when deciding which therapist referral service to sign up for? · Can I actually use these platforms? · How quickly am I credentialed and how many different panels can I sign up for? · Will this service get me clients? · How many clients are they going to get you? · Are the insurance benefits checks accurate? · What does customer service look like? · What are the rates they pay therapists? · Is there a minimum number of clients you’re expected to see? · What benefits are included for therapists (like CEs, group meetings, EHR, etc.) · What do you want your practice to look like? · What purpose will this platform serve for my practice? For example, are you wanting to get more clients or are you wanting to add insurance billing capacity (or both)? Concerns about digital therapy platforms and insurance referral services · The tendency for things to change as startups grow · Privacy concerns from app-based therapy apps (like BetterHelp and TalkSpace, etc.) · Systemic impacts of tech companies negotiating with insurance companies instead of therapists · Most are set up as 1099 businesses versus W2 employee models and seem to skirt some labor laws and put liability on the therapist
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Choosing Yourself as a Therapist: Strategies to address burnout, compassion fatigue and vicarious trauma Curt and Katie interview Laura Reagan, LCSW-C, of the Trauma Therapist Network. We engage in real talk about burnout and compassion fatigue. We look at why therapists are especially susceptible to burnout, what therapists can do to take care of themselves, and what systems we can set up to try to avoid burnout and compassion fatigue. Laura also shared some ideas for group practice owners who want to support their clinicians. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! An Interview with Laura Reagan, LCSW-C, Trauma Therapist Network Laura Reagan, LCSW-C is an integrative trauma therapist who owns a group psychotherapy practice in the greater Baltimore area. Laura also hosts Therapy Chat and Trauma Chat Podcasts, and she founded Trauma Therapist Network in 2021. Laura trains trauma therapists around the world in using bottom-up therapy methods and accessing their highest selves while doing meaningful psychotherapy work for sustainable careers. In this podcast episode, we take a deeper look at therapist burnout work We’ve spoken many times about burnout and compassion fatigue. We decided to revisit this important topic with our friend, Laura Reagan. What do therapists need to know about “burnout” and “compassion fatigue?” · Burnout isn’t necessarily us not wanting to work, but feeling that the world will fall apart if we aren’t there for our clients · Not paying attention and ending up losing our clients’ trust · You forget you have agency Why are therapists at particular risk for burnout? · Our stuff coming up and not being there for ourselves · Not metabolizing our own trauma triggers · Getting dissociated and numb due to our compassion fatigue and moral injury · There are different levels of risk based on developmental stages What can therapists do to take care of themselves? · Identify whether there is space for experiencing emotions as well as being present for clients · Step away when needed, even when that could mean stopping see clients · Exploring other options to take care of yourself financially · Learning to choose yourself What can therapists do to prevent deep burnout and compassion fatigue? · Being in tune with yourself and your body · Paying attention to your responses to a client session, day, week · Understanding what is happening inside yourself to identify what you need to be well · Making sure to move in between sessions to recalibrate your nervous system · Being in community while also working to stay in connection with yourself · Specific suggestions for group practice owners
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Building Your Treatment Team in Private Practice: Essential Networking Skills for Therapists Curt and Katie chat about treatment teaming, especially for clinicians in private practice. We look at the benefits of a treatment team, how to effectively create an interdisciplinary treatment team (including some networking skills), the qualities of a strong team, and the practicalities for therapists to collaborate effectively in treatment teams. This is a continuing education podcourse. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can best work within treatment teams Clients are often best served by a robust treatment team. Specific diagnoses (like Eating Disorders or Serious Mental Illness) require treatment teaming as a best practice and many others are best served when you are collaborating with the other health and wellness professionals in your clients’ lives. Creating and working within treatment teams in private practice creates a unique challenge. How do you find these professionals and how do you best work with them? The meetings in the hall in treatment centers and agencies can’t happen when you’re at your own office or working virtually. What can modern therapists do? This episode will explore the importance of treatment teams, how to identify who belongs on your treatment teams, and the essential networking skills to create these important relationships. We answer the following questions: What do treatment teams look like in private practice? What are the benefits of treatment teams, especially for lower acuity cases? How can therapists create treatment teams when they are in private practice? How do therapists vet the people they are meeting with? What are the qualities of strong treatment teams? How can therapists collaborate effectively with other professionals in private practice?
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/ Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information including grievance and refund policies. CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit. Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: *The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
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Revisiting SEO and AI – Ethics and best practices: An Interview with Danica Wolf Curt and Katie interview Danica Wolf, COO of Simplified SEO Consulting, on the basics of SEO and how AI is being used in marketing. We look at best practices and ethics for both SEO and AI. We also talk through the potential pitfalls and cautions in the current state of AI for marketing. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! An Interview with Danica Wolf, MSW, Simplified SEO Consulting Danica is a not-so-secret strategy nerd who loves coffee and conversations about all things entrepreneurial. Especially when helping professionals are ready to dive into the world of ethical marketing strategies that actually work. As COO of Simplified SEO Consulting, Danica gets to spend most of her time helping therapists and other mental health professionals build the business of their dreams with dream clients who are already searching for them. As a birth business owner, former trauma advocate, University instructor, and single mom, Danica knows how important it is for busy practice owners to get the info they need quickly with action steps to implement right away. In this podcast episode, we return to our discussions about SEO and AI We’ve talked with caution about AI for your therapy practice but thought it would be helpful to talk to a marketing pro about effective ways to consider AI for your practice marketing. We also look at SEO best practices. What is SEO? What are best practices for on-page optimization? · Search Engine Optimization · Using keywords and content to get better ranked on Google · Content needs to be specific and aligned to ideal client · It is important to use ethical practices in your SEO What are the best practices for making marketing activities more efficient? · We talk about ways that AI is being used for marketing, including cautions and best practices · Google wants to see original content and wants folks to identify that AI has been used · There may be a google penalty for using AI generated content · When using AI for writing, make sure it actually sounds like you, you are editing it, and is accurate information · A better strategy with AI is using thoughtful prompts, your own examples, etc. as well as re-prompting and iterating on the content · Always check and read through things before putting anything on your website · Accessibility and simpler language (e.g., 3 am trauma brain) What are some good resources for writing content? · Jasper.ai · Copy.ai · Previous recommendation was originality.ai (which has had problems recently) · https://hemingwayapp.com/ What are concerns with using AI for your business at this point? · There is a shift in how AI content is being viewed, so initial dopamine hits may be leading you down the wrong path · You will need to be able to keep up with the evolution of AI, not just use it as a shortcut · It needs to be done strategically, intentionally, and ethically Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
How Can You Create an Ethical Faith-Based Practice? An Interview with Whitney Owens, LPC Curt and Katie interview Whitney Owens, LPC of Wise Practice, about faith-based practice. We look at what therapists can get wrong when considering incorporating faith into therapy. We also talk about what to do (and NOT do) when creating a faith-based therapy practice, specifically talking about ethics, using faith as a tool when requested, and the harm caused when therapists have a religious agenda in session. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode, we talk about faith-based therapy practices Faith is a big part of many people’s lives. It is important for therapists to understand how to use faith as a resource in therapy. Further, there are Christian, faith-based therapists who can identify how best to remain within their ethics as a therapist when incorporating faith into therapy. What can therapists get wrong when creating a faith-based therapy practice? · Therapists become unethical when they try to convert clients to Christianity in therapy · When therapists mismatch how much clients want to include faith and belief · Therapists are not supposed to have an agenda for how their clients grow and change · Conversion Therapy (e.g., Sexual Orientation Change Efforts, Anti-trans therapy) are illegal and wrong, regardless of your beliefs or faith · Telling clients what to do about “moral” issues · Refusing to work with people based on “morals” What can therapists do to create an ethical faith-based practice? · Using faith as a tool in therapy · Letting clients dictate how faith is incorporated in therapy · Providing clients space to interpret the bible or create the lives that they want to create · Addressing our own bias · Helping clients to make their own decisions · Getting supervision and even joining secular consultation groups · Doing the work to overcome bias and increase inclusion and affirmative practices What are the benefits of incorporating faith into therapy and therapy practices? · When therapists and clients share faith and beliefs, there can be an alignment of lived experience · Therapists can extend their faith into the work to be more aligned (as long as they remain ethical in how they incorporate it into practice) · Making business decisions that are both faith-based and ethical Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Wise Practice Summit Wise Practice Podcast Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Am I Honoring My Personal Values OR Am I Discriminating? An exploration of ethics for modern therapists What Therapists Need to Know About Abortion and Termination for Medical Reasons: An Interview with Jane Armstrong, LCSW The Practicalities of Mental Health and Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth: An Interview with Jordan Held, LCSW What Goes in Your Notes? Interstate therapy practice and documentation for clients considering abortion or gender affirming care Has Therapy Become the New Religion?
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Can Therapists Do When Clients Don’t Getting Better? Curt and Katie chat about what modern therapists can do when their clients don’t (or can’t) get better. We explore what “getting better" looks like in therapy, what can get in the way of clients improving, how we can support clients who are unable to reach traditional treatment goals, and how clinicians can take care of ourselves while doing this longer-term work. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can happen when clients aren’t improving At a recent talk, we got the question – what if my clients aren’t getting better? We decided it was time to look at how goals are set, what “getting better” actually looks like, and how therapists can cope with clients whose treatment goals are "not getting worse." What does “getting better” look like in therapy? · Treatment goals are often set based on functionality, independence, and productivity · Outcome measures can be used to track improvement on mood, anxiety, etc. · Goals of “not getting worse” or prevention of future concerns are often hard to quantify or are unsatisfying for therapists (and potentially for their clients) What can get in the way of clients improving in therapy? · Situational concerns that are not changed · Longer-standing diagnoses that don’t go away, but can be stabilized · When improvement is defined as reaching goals, rather than avoiding relapse How can therapists support clients who are unable to reach traditional treatment goals? · Collaborative treatment goal setting · Identifying appropriate expectations · Quality of Life goals · Showing ongoing medical necessity and documenting appropriate need for ongoing care · Higher acuity and relevant diagnoses documented How can clinicians take care of ourselves when we have longer term clients who don’t show dramatic improvement? · Getting clear on client’s capacity for growth · Be clear on your own skills and capacity as a therapist · On-going conversations with the client to determine whether other help is needed · Exploring quality of life goals · Identifying incremental gains and reframing to build hope · Deepening the therapeutic relationship, focusing on the attachment · Redefining success and understanding the pieces that are still uncomfortable · Making sure that therapists do not define their own success based on client outcomes · Destigmatizing long-term weekly therapy as a coping strategy
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Are You Actually Neurodivergent Affirming? An Interview with Sonny Jane Wise Curt and Katie interview Sonny Jane Wise, the Lived Experience Educator. We chat about therapists getting stuck in neuro-normative expectations and norms or refusing to accept medication or accommodations as neurodivergent affirming. We look at how you can get more creative and individualized to support neurodivergent individuals more effectively. We also look specifically at neurodivergent friendly DBT and whether skills-deficit models are inherently ableist. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode, we talk about creating neurodivergent affirmative therapy practices Too often, therapists create goals and engage in practices that are neuro-normative. When working with neurodivergent clients and their families, these practices can be harmful. We asked Sonny Jane Wise, the Lived Experience Educator, to talk with us about how to best incorporate neurodivergent affirming practices for therapy. What do therapists get wrong when moving toward neurodiversity affirming practice? · Removing medication or accommodations as an acceptable option · Failing to allow for individual differences and preferences · Neuro-normativity shows up in goals, especially looking at independence and productivity · Setting expectations inappropriately How can therapists become more neurodivergent affirming? · Understanding the impacts of intersectionality on how someone chooses how they navigate their neurodivergence · Moving away from independence as the goal of therapy · Understanding that a neurodivergent person’s needs are more important than neuro-normative norms · Getting creative with problem-solving and communication · Recognizing differences, learning to work with them and not try to change them or work against them Are skills-deficit based models (like Dialectical Behavioral Therapy) inherently ableist? · When the model states that the problem lies with the individual, then it is ableist · Adjusting the environment and the external factors is more appropriate · DBT skills can be helpful to learn emotions regulation that wasn’t learned when growing up · It is important to recognize differences and giving opportunities to work with differences · Letting go of the one size fits all and moving toward options What is an ideal for neurodiversity affirming spaces? · Viewing differences as differences and not something to be fixed or changed · Needs based system (not diagnosis-based system) · Understanding that everyone needs different things and accommodations, not just those with · Removing neuro-normative standards and expectations Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Liability Hot Potato: Defensive Therapy practices that give clients inadequate care Curt and Katie chat about defensive therapy practices. We talk about how therapists avoid liability by practicing defensively, which can harm our clients. We look at common defensive therapy practices, like refusing to see clients with certain types of risk or too quickly hospitalizing someone. We explore the risks to our clients when we practice this way and how we can navigate risk to avoid practicing defensively. This is a continuing education podcourse. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about therapists minimizing their own liability without benefitting their clients Therapists facing difficult decisions in therapeutic treatment are presented with the competing tasks of providing quality care to clients while also trying to minimize their legal risks. This can lead to therapists who may choose courses of action that do not benefit clients while doing things to protect the therapist. This podcourse explores the types of defensive practices that therapists take, how to recognize them, what steps can be done to protect therapists, and how to maximize client outcomes. What are defensive therapy practices? · Actions taken by a therapist that don’t benefit the client, but are done to protect the legal liability of the therapist · Avoidant versus Assurant defensive therapy practices · Responding to very scary law and ethics classes · Avoiding lawyers and subpoenas What are examples of Defensive Therapy practices? · Avoidant: Avoiding talking about anything that is even related to things outside of our scope of practice (e.g., medical or legal advice); refusing to see clients with specific types of risk · Assurant: Sending clients to the hospital quickly based on risk rather than on treatment efficacy, over-reporting abuse and engaging clients with systems · Therapists are employing defensive therapy practices when making sure to shift liability elsewhere How do I navigate the risk that often leads to defensive therapy practices? · Make clear the limitations on your knowledge, but respond to questions and needs in the best way you can, referring to experts as appropriate · Prescriptive Assurant practices (taking action based on laws, rules, and/or ethical decision-making) · Documentation of ethical decision-making process and the decision and actions made · Documentation of the conversations with the client related to the action or inaction · Also, documentation of the ongoing evaluation procedure for the action taken Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/ Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information including grievance and refund policies. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Special Episode: Modern Therapist’s Consumer Guide on Thrizer Curt and Katie talk with Raunak Sharma, owner of Thrizer, a modern payment processing app for private pay therapists. Thrizer is a modern payments solution built for therapists. You can charge clients securely, receive payments seamlessly, and enable insurance reimbursements automatically. We chat with Raunak about Thrizer as well as his perspective on the finances of therapy, specifically out of network billing. We explore the challenges (and ineffectiveness) of super bills as well as a new solution (ThrizerPlus) that will help clients only pay what they owe. This is the Modern Therapist Consumer Guide, a series of special episodes to help modern therapists navigate products and services specifically designed for therapists and their clients. We dig deeply into the companies, the people, and the products and services so you can make smart decisions in building your practice and serving your clients. Transcripts will be available on mtsgpodcast.com. Interview with Raunak Sharma, Founder and CEO of Thrizer Raunak is the Founder and CEO of Thrizer, a payments app for private pay therapists. A therapy-goer himself, he got tired of the struggle to leverage his out-of-network benefits and get reimbursed for his sessions, and wanted to build a solution to help both therapists and their clients. Thousands of therapists now use Thrizer daily to securely charge for appointments and upgrade their client experience. In this podcast episode we talk about out of network billing and payment processing with Thrizer Interview with Raunak Sharma, Thrizer 2:04 How did you decide to create Thrizer? How did you put together the business? 3:08 What are the values that guide your business and business decisions? 4:51 When therapists are putting together their private pay practice, what should they consider when designing their financial systems? (i.e., Private pay, Insurance-based, Out of network billing) 8:14 What does out of network billing involve? 10:34 What does out of network billing look like when using Thrizer? 12:59 What kind of out of network rates are people getting? 15:33 How often are clients wanting and able to use their out of network benefits? 18:49 How does Thrizer work? 21:22 How do you actually have enough information to create a claim? 24:22 How can you make a profit if you are only charging the 3% processing fee? 26:40 What is ThrizerPlus? 31:21 What makes Thrizer different than other payment processors and/or other out of network billers? 32:40 What’s still a work in progress at Thrizer? 34:04 Special offer from Thrizer for our Modern Therapist audience Curt and Katie Chat – Our review of Thrizer 36:19 What do you see as the deciding factors when deciding whether to use Thrizer for payment processing and out of network billing (or not)?
A Special Offer for the listeners of Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast from Thrizer Go to bit.ly/moderntherapists and use the code MODERNTHERAPISTS for free payment processing on your first $2,500 of payments. Relevant Links: Thrizer Website Email: Raunak at thrizer.com Social Media: Thrizer on Instagram Thrizer on Facebook Thrizer on LinkedIn
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
How to Provide Culturally Appropriate Care for African American Families, An Interview with Mercedes Samudio, LCSW Curt and Katie interview Mercedes Samudio, LCSW, about working with African American Families. We talk about what therapists typically get wrong when working with these families, what therapists need to know about working with African American families, how to work cross culturally, and how both conscious and unconscious bias impact therapy. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode, we talk about how therapists can work with African American families more effectively Our friend, Mercedes Samudio, LCSW, is researching how therapists can best support African American families. She is looking at how these clients are treated and how they traverse the mental health system to get healing. What do therapists get wrong when working with African American Families? · Therapists will apply therapy universally to diverse groups that require nuance and different interventions · Therapists don't understand enough about African American families to understand the differences What do therapists need to know about African American families? · There are differences between “Black” and “African American” · The impacts of the transatlantic slave trade · Cultural differences based on which country one is living in as well as how one travels as a human in their country of residence How can therapists work cross-culturally with African American families? · Specialized training like Mercedes’ training: Engaging African American Families · Work with people who have expertise · Google alerts for · Understanding how you show up in the world, create an identity statement for all of the identities you have that are relevant to you, your social location · Talking about conscious and unconscious bias and identities throughout the therapy process · Understanding generational differences How do conscious and unconscious bias impact therapy? · What we know we don’t like about people (conscious) · What may influence us from before we understand labels and differences · Prejudices that influence how we show up in the therapy room can cause conflict · Explore the conflict, explore the potential biases · Use tentative language (I wonder if this is showing up here or impacting our relationship) · Understanding how your identity often shows up socially can provide the therapist with fodder for exploring what bias may be present in the room What are best practices for working with African American families? · Genograms are helpful to explore how everything impacts the family members and who they say are included in their families · Understanding how these families fit within their communities and who is involved with each of these families Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! https://shameproofparenting.com/
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
The Future Is Now: Chatbots are Replacing Mental Health Workers Curt and Katie chat about what happened with the National Eating Disorder Association and their chatbot, Tessa, as well as new prompts to make ChatGPT act like a CBT therapist. We also look at the risks related to chatbots taking over mental health and crisis services. We also discuss what therapists can do to safeguard their practices in the wake of the robot revolution. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about Tessa, the chatbot replacing NEDA hotline workers After their hotline workers unionized, National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA) fired all of their hotline workers and replaced that service with Tessa, an AI chatbot. This chatbot quickly started telling folks seeking eating disorder assistance that dieting could be a good idea. There are already prompts folks are using to have ChatGPT act as your therapist. We decided we needed to talk about how the chatbots are coming for our jobs. What happened with National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA) and Tessa? · The hotline workers unionized and were fired by the association and replaced with Tessa · Tessa is a prevention chatbot that was created to provide support to folk waiting for resources · Tessa was launched and when tried, provided harmful advice, and then was taken down · Now there is no crisis hotline or back up chat support offered by NEDA What is the Tessa Chatbot? · An evidence-based practice was redesigned as conversations · Writing prompts and infographics to break up the text · Studies were done to see how it works and to fix some of the errors What are the risks related to chatbots taking over mental health services? · There are now instructions for prompts to have ChatGPT act as a CBT therapist · As people interact with chatbots, they will add to the dataset, theoretically improving it · The concerns about the iterations, if unchecked, will become more and more harmful as it adopts human disordered thinking and language · Evidence-based practices are prime to be put into chatbots · The utility of the resources that chatbots can provide (including coping strategies and writing prompts) What can therapists do to address the concerns of the robot revolution? · Understand the technology and pay attention to the innovation process · Look at where AI may not be able to replace immediately, focus your attention there in developing your skills · Intuitive leaps that humans make that AI may find too risky · Higher level risk assessment and more challenging diagnoses may be reserved for humans
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
The Sky is Falling: How Therapists Can Protect Our Industry, Patient-Centered Care, and Our Businesses, An Interview with Dr. Ajita Robinson Curt and Katie interview Dr. Ajita Robinson about innovation within the mental health industry that could threaten therapists in private practice. We chat about Value Based Care in insurance, insurance credentialing companies, and big tech disruptors. We also talk with Dr. Ajita (an income strategist) about ways that therapists can diversify their income leveraging both their license AND their knowledge, to try to mitigate these risks to our businesses. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode, we talk about how therapists can protect our profession With the changes to our industry, we thought it would be important to talk with Dr. Ajita Robinson, an income strategist and insurance expert, about how therapists can weather the storm. What are the threats to the mental health industry? · Big tech companies innovating in our space, with a focus on efficiency · Value-based insurance billing · Credentialing and billing services (like Alma and Headway) moving us out of direct communication with insurance companies How can therapists leverage their skills for alternative revenue streams? · Understanding what other types of services can therapists provide · Clarifying when we’re leveraging our knowledge versus leveraging our license · Identifying problems that we’re best situated to solve · Entering the self-help industry How can therapists get started when they are ready to leverage alternative revenue? · Identifying the problem you solve rather than the transformation you want to provide · Understanding what your target client has already tried · Knowing what the barriers are for them to solve their problem · Clarifying who is the customer and who is the consumer · Contracting with schools, cities, etc. is possible for therapists to increase income · Accessing resources and experts to help you do what you need to do · Distinguishing when to start a separate business Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Dr. Ajita’s website Dr. Ajita Robinson’s book: The Gift Of Grief: A Practical Guide On Grief And Loss Facebook: facebook.com/drajita Instagram: instagram.com/dr.ajitarobinson LinkedIn: linkedin.com/ajitarobinson Facebook group: Purposeful & Profitable Therapist Community Purposeful and Profitable Summit in July
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Private Practice Planning for the Future of Mental Healthcare: An interview with Maureen Werrbach Post-Pandemic Practice Is AI Smart for Your Therapy Practice?
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Private Practice Planning for the Future of Mental Healthcare: An Interview with Maureen Werrbach Curt and Katie interview Maureen Werrbach of the Group Practice Exchange on upcoming trends for mental healthcare. We talk about what is predicted, how to prepare your private practice for success in 2023, and how to plan for unexpected changes to our profession.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Maureen Werrbach, LCPC, The Group Practice Exchange Maureen Werrbach established The Group Practice Exchange after starting her private practice, Urban Wellness, and growing it into successful group practices in various locations.
Spending countless hours researching how to start a private practice (the legal and procedural steps) and then so many more hours learning how to grow it into a group (again trying to figure out the appropriate steps), she remembers wishing there was a place that she could go, or a book that she could read, that would explain not only the steps it would take to launch a group practice, but also discuss topics that relate to group practice ownership.
A degree in the social service field doesn’t offer any training on the business side of running a group practice! Maureen learned through trial and error what works and what doesn’t in running a counseling group practice. She enjoys helping others reach their full potential and feel confident in running their business.
In this podcast episode, we talk about upcoming trends in Mental Health and what it means for your therapy practice We reached out to our friend Maureen Werrbach of the Group Practice Exchange about where our field is moving and how we can plan for success.
The way therapy is provided and paid for will be changing “I feel like are going to be (or have already started) affecting our industry – outpatient private practice – is the shift, slow shift to values based reimbursement… which essentially is shifting away from a fee-for-service model that insurance companies now pay a certain dollar amount for sessions, to values-based reimbursement based off of values-based care (which insurance companies are going to be dictating what values based care is)… they're going to shift from this fee for service model of paying a flat amount per CPT code to a drastically reduced amount and then based off of the values-based care that you give, there can be additional reimbursements per session.” – Maureen Werrbach, LCPC
- Insurance: Fee for service versus value-based pricing
- Large tech companies and one-stop shops
- Ease of access and diminished costs via telehealth
What therapists can do to future-proof their practice “There's going to be an unfortunate consequence. You already have a therapist shortage. I believe that there's going to be a lot of people who close their doors because the business side of it becomes too difficult. And where my feedback is: start now – by any practice owner, solo or group – start now by dedicating even one hour a week to researching the future.” – Maureen Werrbach, The Group Practice Exchange
- Strong niche and branding
- Doing what we do best
- Addressing fees, profit margins, hiring
- Dedicate time to researching upcoming trends
- Diversifying offerings
- Determining the best fit for your business, your career, your employment
Special considerations for Group Practice Owners in 2023 * The concerns related to large group therapist mills taking employees * Focus on people, culture, and innovation * Intentionality related to values, mission, vision * Avoiding divisiveness and conflict between employers and employees * The importance of transparency and clarity on how you’ve set up your practice * Pathways for employees to grow and creative employment opportunities
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! The Group Practice Exchange Membership
The Group Practice Exchange Facebook Group
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Maureen’s previous interview: Becoming a Group Practice Owner
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Beyond Reimagination: What is right (and wrong) with mental health apps
Post Pandemic Practice
All Things Group Therapy: An interview with Katie K. May, LPC
Online Therapy Apps
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Penny Wise and Pound Foolish: Thoughts on investing and getting paid as a therapist Curt and Katie chat about money: considerations for investing and getting paid as a therapist. We look at typical unpaid opportunities and how to decide whether to do them. We also talk about client care practices that may take time, but could keep clients.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about money mistakes that many therapists make We talk a lot about making sure that therapists get paid, but thought it was worth talking about when therapists should invest in their business and when they may want to work for free.
What are the lessons Curt and Katie learned around investing in their businesses? * Electronic Health Records/Practice Management systems are very helpful * Automation helps your business to run without you * Sometimes visibility is worth working for free
How do you decide if you should do something for your business? “I gave a presentation, it's gotta be more than 10 years ago at this point, for a group of students. I think, like five people showed up… But I still get referrals from one of the people who came there. And it turned into a really wonderful relationship, because I sounded like I knew what I was talking about.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- What are the practical benefits and challenges?
- What are the other potential benefits (like enjoyment)?
- What is the investment of time, money, and expertise?
- What is the return on investment?
Specifics on deciding to take unpaid work “There are elements of this where it's really looking at is the audience strong enough? Is there any money eventually? And do you actually want the referrals from the audience that you're going to be in front of? Because if all of those things are yes… I would consider – at least the first time out – doing some content creation (because I love content creation) without getting paid to see does it actually pan out. But you want to make sure you track that to determine: am I going to actually get anything from this this relationship and from this work that I'm doing?” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- What new relationships will be developed?
- Will you get visibility with the audience you’re seeking?
- Will you obtain access to relevant learning?
- Is the entity that is asking you legit and established?
- Are there other forms of compensation (like photos or videos)?
- Are you able to get clients from this work? (And what are new clients worth to you?)
Client care versus getting paid “I don't think it's helpful, at least not for customer service purposes, to view your client as trying to take advantage of you.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Setting up appropriate boundaries and policies
- Avoiding additional costs, if you can (i.e., setting fees in a private pay practice to include these extras)
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Why You Shouldn’t Just Do It All Yourself: An interview with Bibi Goldstein
Why You Shouldn't Sell Out to Better Help: An interview with Jeff Guenther
I Just Graduated, Now What? Career Advice for New Clinicians
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
How to Manage Your Practice as a Traveling Therapist: An Interview with Kym Tolson, LCSW Curt and Katie interview Kym Tolson, the traveling therapist. We look at how a modern therapist can be a digital nomad, including what business logistics to consider as well as how to travel well.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Kym Tolson, LCSW I'm Kym Tolson, I'm an LCSW and CSAC licensed in the state of Virginia. I have an online insurance-based therapy practice. I lived in Florida until 2/2/22 when we (my BF and I) became digital nomads. Now, we will live in Air BnB's and travel the world. During the COVID lockdowns, I had a lot of time to work on my "side-hustles". I still saw my clients, but I also continued to perfect my course, "DIY Insurance Billing for Private Practice". Over 950 clinicians have taken my course and I'm humbled to be able to guide so many therapists on a path of empowerment and knowledge in their practices. I truly believe it's imperative to have at least a basic understanding of insurance billing if you are going to accept it in your practice. In addition to my course, I created a supportive community, Bill Like A Boss, for therapists who are billing insurance in their private practices. Since that time, I've created 8 income streams to support my traveling obsession. Luckily, coaching other therapists through my courses, consultations, and membership has given me space to see fewer clients and make a higher income. I've been able to scale up and serve more people at the same time instead of being stuck in the 1:1 therapy model. Now I have the space and finances to be a digital nomad and actually enjoy the places I'm traveling to! Most recently, I started a Podcast!! The Traveling Therapist to share my journey as well as the stories of other traveling therapists. Please feel free to reach out to info@kymtolson.com, www.thetravelingtherapist.com, and privatepracticeinsurancebilling.com if you would like to learn more.
In this podcast episode, we talk about working as a therapist when traveling We reached out to our friend Kym Tolson who lives and works as a digital nomad.
“It's kind of like being on vacation every day.” – Kym Tolson, LCSW
What are the most important considerations when working as a digital nomad? * Checking the Wi-Fi before booking your accommodations * How long to stay in each place (Kym says about 2.5 weeks) * Finding a schedule that works and only takes small tweaks when you change time zones * Planning around the seasons and ideal locations
What are the business considerations for traveling therapists? * Consult with tax attorney and accountant, where to register your business * Reach out to boards for the state you are traveling to (to determine if you can practice within the state) * Paying attention to state of licensure and state where you are working * Considerations for business write offs and expenses * Tracking business expenses, income, and the location these things happen
Managing work-life balance as a digital nomad * Finding the right times for work * Setting a schedule * Compartmentalize fun and work separately
What have been the biggest surprises in becoming a digital nomad? * The number of possibilities for each day * How hard it was initially in letting go of stuff and how easy it seems like it is to let go of stuff now * The feelings about not having a homebase
What are the necessities when traveling as a digital nomad? “We definitely need multiple Wi Fi options… So we have two different hotspot carriers because if mine’s not working, his might be and vice versa. We can use each other’s spots. We also have another portable mobile hotspot that we can turn on and off as we need. It connects to any cell service that's local to where that hotspot is. So that's another alternative. So we definitely have that taken care of everywhere we go, because we both need the Internet to be able to work.” – Kym Tolson, LCSW
- Specific creature comforts or life necessities (for Kym it’s pots/pans to manage Celiac disease)
- Computer
- Numerous Wi-Fi options (different carriers for cell-phone coverage and portable mobile hotspot)
- Airbnbs have everything
- Being organized
- Understanding of the impacts of mode of travel and type of accommodations
How do clients react to therapists who are on the road? * Decide on the level of transparency on traveling or location * Virtual background for continuity * Clients are usually pretty flexible with traveling therapist
What are the biggest challenges when thinking about the traveling lifestyle? * Leaving family and home * Scheduling * Costs and money mindset * Loneliness if you are doing it on your own * Organization and planning
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! www.thetravelingtherapist.com
www.privatepracticeinsurancebilling.com
Kym’s Facebook Group
The Expert’s Guide to Becoming a Traveling Therapist Course coupon code for 25% off is MODERNTHERAPIST
Bill Like a Boss – Kym’s Insurance Billing Membership
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: How Can Therapists Actually Retire: An interview with David Frank
Partners of Therapists
Thriving Over Surviving – Growing a Practice Without Burning Out: An interview with Megan Gunnell, LMSW
Post Pandemic Practice
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Smarter than SMART: How therapists can improve goal-setting with clients Curt and Katie chat about setting goals. We look at why goals are important to therapists, SMART goals (what they are, what works and what doesn’t), and how to move beyond SMART goals to more robust goal setting and behavior design.
This is a continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about how to strengthen your goal-setting skills Many therapists learn SMART Goals and objectives as the primary tools for creating treatment plans. Oftentimes, goal setting can be a check box for insurance or a frustrating activity that doesn’t seem to support clinical progress. We dig deeper into how to make SMART goals better (SMARTer goals?), and we uncover and address the limitations of SMART goals. The current research on how to move past SMART goals to more effective and strategic planning for change also helps to make our clients dig deeper into the process of achieving their goals. We also explore additional goal-setting models to inform and create a more robust goal setting strategy…and we do it all with a demonstration on how to put it into action!
Why is goal-setting important to therapists? * Therapeutic benefit * Ethical responsibility * Ability to achieve goals
What are SMART Goals? Do they work? * A goal-setting style that leads to concrete behavioral goals * Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Relevant, Timebound * There are challenges that do not lead to goal attainment * The benefits of effort or progress goals versus outcome goals * May need to add steps to create a more robust plan
How can you improve SMART goals? “Even though it's a lot easier for clinicians to have goals that will span a number of treatment plan periods, it's actually not effective for our clients.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Using the Grip on Life model
- Understanding the challenge and making sure that the SMART goal addressed the challenge
- Digging deeper into the elements of SMART goals
- Identifying the barriers to following through with goals set
- Finding life skills that help to reach the goal
- Exploring values, planning, attention
- Looking at what is actually more motivating
- Is motivation sufficient to make the goal happen?
“[Make] sure that you're testing your own assumptions, because we want to meet the client where they are, in their timeframe of making the change. Because if we push them too hard, it becomes not realistic, or it doesn't become attuned to them.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
What is the key difference between setting goals and behavior design? * Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg * Motivation is fickle * Finding the smallest behavior change that can move you toward the goal * Create a habit, put it into something you’re already doing, and celebrate the accomplishment
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Tiny Habits: The small changes that change everything by BJ Fogg, PhD
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Bertelsen, P. & Ozer, S. (2021). Grip on life as a possible antecedent for self-control beliefs interacts with well-being and perceived stress. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 62, 185–192.
Fogg, B. J. (2020). Tiny habits: the small changes that change everything. Boston, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.
Gano-Overway, Lori & Sackett, Sarah. (2021). Let’s Get Smart and Set Goals to ASPIRE. Journal of Sport Psychology in Action. 1-15. 10.1080/21520704.2021.2007192.
Geurtzen, N., Keijsers, G. P. J., Karremans, J. C., Tiemens, B. G., & Hutschemaekers, G. J. M. (2020). Patients’ perceived lack of goal clarity in psychological treatments: Scale development and negative correlates. Clinical Psychology & Psychotherapy, 27(6), 915–924. https://doi.org/10.1002/cpp.2479
Müller, A. A., & Kotte, S. (2020). Of SMART, GROW and goals gone wild - A systematic literature review on the relevance of goal activities in workplace coaching. International Coaching Psychology Review, 15(2), 69–97.
Parish, T. S. (2020). IMPROVING OUR CHOICES THROUGH EFFECTIVE GOAL SETTING and PLAN-MAKING. International Journal of Choice Theory & Reality Therapy, 15(1), 41–44.
Preben Bertelsen, Simon Ozer, Peter Faber, Anne Sofie Jacobsen & Toke Lund-Laursen (2020) High school students’ grip on life and education, Nordic Psychology, 72:4, 265-291, DOI: 10.1080/19012276.2019.1690557
Starreveld, A. (2021). MAGIC: A Proposed Model Based on Common Factors. Integrative Psychological & Behavioral Science, 55(3), 582–592. https://doi.org/10.1007/s12124-020-09599-0
Weintraub, J., Cassell, D., & DePatie, T. P. (2021). Nudging flow through “SMART” goal setting to decrease stress, increase engagement, and increase performance at work. Journal of Occupational & Organizational Psychology, 94(2), 230–258. https://doi.org/10.1111/joop.12347
Zarate, M., Miltenberger, R., & Valbuena, D. (2019). Evaluating the effectiveness of goal setting and textual feedback for increasing moderate‐intensity physical activity in adults. Behavioral Interventions, 34(4), 553–563. https://doi.org/10.1002/bin.1679
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Structuring Self-Care
All Kinds of Burned Out
Thriving Over Surviving – Growing a Practice Without Burnout: An interview with Megan Gunnell, LMSW
Why You Shouldn’t Just Do It All Yourself: An interview with Bibi Goldstein
Therapists Are Not Robots: How we can show humanity in the room
Whole Person Therapist Episodes
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Navigating the Social Media Self-Diagnosis Trend Curt and Katie chat about the TikTok Mental Health and the self-diagnosis trend. We dig into what diagnosis is (and what is actually useful about diagnosis). We also explore the concerns with social media self-diagnosis as well as how we can support our clients with getting accurate assessment and treatment.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about self-diagnosis and the impact of social media We have both heard about TikTok diagnoses in our practices and wanted to talk about how therapists might navigate this new trend.
What is the TikTok trend of self-diagnosis? * Lots of influencers on social media are sharing content * Unvetted content creators * Some good information mixed in with very vague information that can be confusing
What is diagnosis? “The way I see diagnosis is that it's a construct… It's labeling folks that seem to fall together with similar symptoms. And the medical model says, that's a real thing. And then we can do treatments or prescribe medication for it... And so, to me, some of the self-diagnosis stuff is almost colluding with this medical model that’s saying, if you have a couple of these things over here, and a couple of those things over here, then you have this label, this label is a real thing. And that blows my mind, because I think a lot of folks in the self-diagnosis realm are trying to kind of push up against the establishment, but they're lending credence to this idea that diagnosis is a real, concrete thing versus a tool to help with treatment planning, and to understanding us better.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Rosenhan experiment (experiment showing that malingering patients will probably be misdiagnosed)
- Constructs of things that typically fall together
- Effective for treatment planning and getting this treatment covered by insurance
- Identity versus something to heal
What are concerns with social media self-diagnosis? “The point of having a professional be able to properly evaluate is looking through that more nuanced clinical eye in order to look at where the threshold is that actually meets diagnostic [criteria] versus actually just having some characteristics in common with [the diagnosis]. Somebody can be nervous, does not mean that they have anxiety… What is pathologizing normal feelings?” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Focusing in on small elements and then having that frame their full life experience
- Seeking only confirmatory diagnosis versus allowing for differential diagnosis
- Clinicians who are not doing full assessments to support clients who have self-diagnosed
- Clients who do not need treatment taking slots from those who do need assessment and treatment
- Lack of nuance in the social media content that doesn’t include information on differential diagnosis
- Inaccurate treatments based on inaccurate self-diagnosis
- Malingering and factitious disorder risk
- Pathologizing normal feelings
- Being inundated with so much information
- Confirmatory bias
How to support clients who have sought diagnostic information on social media and google? “What started the whole thing… clinicians under diagnosing, undervaluing client feedback, not asking all the right questions. And so, folks are feeling dissatisfied with what we're doing and heading to the interweb to understand better what it is that's going on.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Therapists need to listen to their clients, so they don’t feel the need to go elsewhere for information
- Identify what is resonating for clients and explore what it means to them
- Educate clients about differential diagnosis
- Walk through their research (to listen and to help vet sources)
- Take your client seriously and support them in getting the help they need
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Rosenhan experiment
Articles:
TikTok Mental Illness Diagnosis
Deconstructing TikTok Videos on Mental Health: Cross-sectional, Descriptive Content Analysis
Young People Are Using TikTok to Diagnose Themselves With Serious Mental Health Disorders. What's Behind This Trend?
TikTok and the Dangers of Self-Diagnosing Mental Health Disorders
Why "TikTok Diagnoses" Are on the Rise
Why the nature of TikTok could exacerbate a worrisome social media trend
Young Women Are Self-Diagnosing Personality Disorders, Thanks To TikTok
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: What's New in the DSM-5-TR: An interview with Dr. Michael B. First
Portrayals of Mental Health and Therapy in the Media: An interview with Danah Davis Williams, LMFT
Should Therapists Correct Their Clients?
It’s Not a Chemical Imbalance: An interview with Dr. Kristen Syme
Is Therapy an Opiate of the Masses?
Speaking Up for Mental Health Awareness: An interview with Metta World Peace
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Therapists Should Know About Sexual Health, Monkey Pox, and the Echoes of the AIDS Epidemic: An Interview with Mallory Garrett, LMFT Curt and Katie interview Mallory Garrett about sexual health as well as the current concerns related to Monkey Pox. We discuss what therapists usually get wrong when working with sexual health, what therapists need to know about STIs, as well as Monkey Pox. We talk about the relevant history of the HIV/AIDs epidemic and the community responses to Monkey Pox. We also look at how therapists can be most helpful to clients within our scope of practice. Resources to stay up to date with Monkey Pox and sexual health are also included in the show notes.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Mallory Garrett, LMFT Mallory Garrett is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in California and New York. She graduated with a BA in Comparative Literature from UCLA and an MS in Counseling from CSU-Northridge. She began working in the social services sector as a Resident Services Intern with a low-income housing corporation for people living with HIV/AIDS and other chronic health conditions. She continued working in this field during her traineeship and internships as she worked towards licensure. She loves speaking to therapists about destigmatizing HIV/AIDS and STIs and has co-facilitated a workshop through Simple Practice Learning. When not working she enjoys going to the theater and traveling.
In this podcast episode, we talk about sexual health and sexually transmitted infections (STIs) We talk about sexual health broadly as well as the recent concerns about Monkey Pox and the historical context of HIV/AIDs.
What do therapists get wrong when working with sexual health? “When you're working with someone who is in a mismatched libido relationship, oftentimes we look at it and say, well, the long-term relationship is not about sex, it shouldn't be about sex. It's about other things. It's about, you know, companionship, and friendship and mutual respect for your partner. And those are definitely important. And those are the cornerstones of our relationship. But sex is also a cornerstone of a relationship.” – Mallory Garrett, LMFT
- Lack of education, or education that solely focuses on reproduction
- Fear about scope of practice when addressing folks who are being treated medically
- Lack of understanding and exploration of libido mismatches
- Downplaying the importance of sex in our clients’ lives
- The moralistic or puritanical nature of how many people approach sex
What do therapists need to know about sexual health, STIs, and Monkey Pox? * Monkey Pox is not technically a STI, but is primarily transmitted sexually in the US * The stigma and concerns of being ignored, especially from those who lived through the HIV/AIDS epidemic * Gay Rights and Sexual Liberation has relevance to these diseases * The extreme societal bias toward the gay community during that time, medical neglect * The emergence of Monkey Pox brought back the fears, stigma, and neglect
How can therapists help therapists have discussions related to Monkey Pox or STIs? * Approaching sexually transmitted infections with a harm reduction lens * Empowering clients to make decisions * Referring folks to their local public health department for information on vaccination
What is Monkey Pox? * Monkey Pox does not seem to be spread asymptomatically * The lesions are very painful and are the primary reason for hospitalization * Primarily being spread through close intimate contact by men who have sex with men * Monkey Pox is typically not fatal, but there are two different strains with different fatality rates
How do therapists support folks who have Monkey Pox? * Push back against judgment and shame, checking own bias * Meeting clients where they are * Decreasing isolation through virtual sessions * Understanding the pain related to the lesions, as well as the potential disfigurement
How can therapists stay up to date on sexual health issues, including Monkey Pox? * Follow CDC and WHO online * Follow AIDS activists who are following Monkey Pox * Scroll down for links from Mallory
Why is it important for therapists to step into advocacy for our patients? “More than an expert, I would describe myself as an advocate, because it is one of those things where it's so hard sometimes to stay up to date with all the science and the details. And ultimately, like as therapists especially, we don't need to know the science and the details. We need to know the gist, but not the specifics. I don't need to know what viral strain, etc., to have empathy and understanding for my clients.” – Mallory Garrett, LMFT
- Providing empathy and compassion regardless of our medical understanding
- Doctors and other medical providers are not perfect, so it is important for clients to have good questions and feel empowered
- Encouraging folks with lived experiences to sit at the table when policy decisions are being made
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Mallory’s website: www.mallorygarrett.com
Mallory’s twitter: https://twitter.com/nomad_therapist
Mallory’s course on SimplePractice: HIV & AIDS Awareness for Mental Health Providers
Mallory’s recommendations for staying up to date on sexual health issues: https://twitter.com/dr_demetre
https://twitter.com/CDCgov
https://twitter.com/benryanwriter
https://twitter.com/WHO
https://twitter.com/peterstaley
https://youtube.com/c/MamaDoctorJones
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Understanding Polyamory: An interview with Dana McNeil, LMFT
Sex and Shame: An interview with Eliza Boquin, LMFT
Let’s Talk About Sex: An interview with Liz Dube, LMFT
Managing Chronic Pain and Illness: An interview with Daniela Paolone, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
It’s the Lack of Thought That Counts: Ethical Decision Making in Dual Relationships Curt and Katie chat about dual relationships. We talk about the types of dual relationships, how often therapists get in trouble for these types of relationships, how to manage dual relationships, and the ethical decision making process to go through to decide whether to engage in a dual relationship. This is a law and ethics continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about ethical decision making to navigate dual relationships We take a deeper dive into the complex relationships that we can have with our clients, our supervisors and our supervisees.
What are dual relationships? * Therapists know a lot about a very specific dual relationship: having sex with your clients, which is not acceptable * There are many different types of potential dual relationships (we talk about the definitions of each type) * The different hats we may wear with clients and colleagues
How do you manage a dual relationship? * Open conversations * Outside neutral party facilitating the transition in the relationship * The assessment of benefit or harm, whether there is coercion * Exploring how culture interacts with these types of relationships
How often are therapists getting in trouble for dual relationships? * About 1/3 of complaints are due to sexual relationships with clients * Other types of complaints include conflict of interest, non-sexual, or not described * Concerns in rural areas are actually less dual relationships than incompetence * Most complaints happen after the relationships have ended
Why do therapists engage in harmful dual relationships? “Oftentimes [in predatory dual relationships] there is a conspiratorial element of it – if the client knows (hey, we're stepping across the line) or there is a very manipulative element if the therapist is framing it as this is good for you. And so, once there's a rupture or an end to the relationship and you start talking about, oh, my therapist did this and people are like "what?!?!", I think it's that element of [realizing] I've been wronged by my therapist, and let me go and tell the world that they did this thing.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Boundary slips
- Manipulation, intellectualization
- Not a thoughtful process
- Not an examination of bias
- Therapists going through an intuitive process versus a formal decision-making process
What is a strong formal process for ethical decision making? “One of the calls to action, as far as any other ethics professors: really reinforcing the importance of an ethical decision-making model, because that is what the licensing boards and the ethics committees want you to do. If you go through a good model, and even if you end up with slightly the wrong answer, if you've put good thought into it, it at least formalizes the process and gives people an insight into how you're thinking about things.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Pope and Vasquez have a 17 Step Process for ethical decision making
- Deeply examining the question, the impact, and exploring any bias
- Identifying and understanding relevant laws and ethics
- Consultation, documentation, and evaluation
- We walk through a specific dual relationship question: what happens if your client refers a friend and colleague to you? How do you decide whether to take the client or not?
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Pope: Steps in Ethical Decision Making
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT) Code of Ethics
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Boland-Prom, K. Johnson, J. & Gunaganti, G. S. (2015) Sanctioning Patterns of Social Work Licensing Boards, 2000–2009, Journal of Human Behavior in the Social Environment, 25:2, 126-136, DOI: 10.1080/10911359.2014.947464
Brownlee, K., LeBlanc, H., Halverson, G., Piché, T., & Brazeau, J. (2019). Exploring self-reflection in dual relationship decision-making. Journal of Social Work, 19(5), 629–641. https://doi.org/10.1177/1468017318766423
Pearson, B., & Piazza, N. (1997). Classification of dual relationships in the helping professions. Counselor Education and Supervision, 37(2), 89-99.
Pope, K. S., Vasquez, M. J. T., Chavez-Dueñas, N. Y., & Adames, H. Y. (2021). Ethics in Psychotherapy and Counseling: A Practical Guide (6th ed.). Wiley.
Wilkinson, Tyler, Dannielle Smith, and Ramona Wimberly. "Trends in ethical complaints leading to professional counseling licensing boards disciplinary actions." Journal of Counseling & Development 97.1 (2019): 98-104.
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Dual Relationships: Pros and Cons
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Therapists Are Not Robots: How we can show humanity in the room
Therapy as a Political Act: An interview with Dr. Travis Heath
What You Should Know About Walk and Talk and Other Non-Traditional Counseling Settings Part 1 and Part 2
Therapy with an Audience: An interview with Doug Friedman, LCSW
Small Town Sex Therapist: An interview with Jeanette Tolson, LCSW, CASAC
Whole Person Therapist Episodes
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
It’s the Lack of Thought That Counts: Ethical Decision Making in Dual Relationships Curt and Katie chat about dual relationships. We talk about the types of dual relationships, how often therapists get in trouble for these types of relationships, how to manage dual relationships, and the ethical decision making process to go through to decide whether to engage in a dual relationship. This is a law and ethics continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about ethical decision making to navigate dual relationships We take a deeper dive into the complex relationships that we can have with our clients, our supervisors and our supervisees.
What are dual relationships? * Therapists know a lot about a very specific dual relationship: having sex with your clients, which is not acceptable * There are many different types of potential dual relationships (we talk about the definitions of each type) * The different hats we may wear with clients and colleagues
How do you manage a dual relationship? * Open conversations * Outside neutral party facilitating the transition in the relationship * The assessment of benefit or harm, whether there is coercion * Exploring how culture interacts with these types of relationships
How often are therapists getting in trouble for dual relationships? * About 1/3 of complaints are due to sexual relationships with clients * Other types of complaints include conflict of interest, non-sexual, or not described * Concerns in rural areas are actually less dual relationships than incompetence * Most complaints happen after the relationships have ended
Why do therapists engage in harmful dual relationships? “Oftentimes [in predatory dual relationships] there is a conspiratorial element of it – if the client knows (hey, we're stepping across the line) or there is a very manipulative element if the therapist is framing it as this is good for you. And so, once there's a rupture or an end to the relationship and you start talking about, oh, my therapist did this and people are like "what?!?!", I think it's that element of [realizing] I've been wronged by my therapist, and let me go and tell the world that they did this thing.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Boundary slips
- Manipulation, intellectualization
- Not a thoughtful process
- Not an examination of bias
- Therapists going through an intuitive process versus a formal decision-making process
What is a strong formal process for ethical decision making? “One of the calls to action, as far as any other ethics professors: really reinforcing the importance of an ethical decision-making model, because that is what the licensing boards and the ethics committees want you to do. If you go through a good model, and even if you end up with slightly the wrong answer, if you've put good thought into it, it at least formalizes the process and gives people an insight into how you're thinking about things.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Pope and Vasquez have a 17 Step Process for ethical decision making
- Deeply examining the question, the impact, and exploring any bias
- Identifying and understanding relevant laws and ethics
- Consultation, documentation, and evaluation
- We walk through a specific dual relationship question: what happens if your client refers a friend and colleague to you? How do you decide whether to take the client or not?
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Pope: Steps in Ethical Decision Making
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT) Code of Ethics
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Boland-Prom, K. Johnson, J. & Gunaganti, G. S. (2015) Sanctioning Patterns of Social Work Licensing Boards, 2000–2009, Journal of Human Behavior in the Social Environment, 25:2, 126-136, DOI: 10.1080/10911359.2014.947464
Brownlee, K., LeBlanc, H., Halverson, G., Piché, T., & Brazeau, J. (2019). Exploring self-reflection in dual relationship decision-making. Journal of Social Work, 19(5), 629–641. https://doi.org/10.1177/1468017318766423
Pearson, B., & Piazza, N. (1997). Classification of dual relationships in the helping professions. Counselor Education and Supervision, 37(2), 89-99.
Pope, K. S., Vasquez, M. J. T., Chavez-Dueñas, N. Y., & Adames, H. Y. (2021). Ethics in Psychotherapy and Counseling: A Practical Guide (6th ed.). Wiley.
Wilkinson, Tyler, Dannielle Smith, and Ramona Wimberly. "Trends in ethical complaints leading to professional counseling licensing boards disciplinary actions." Journal of Counseling & Development 97.1 (2019): 98-104.
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Dual Relationships: Pros and Cons
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Therapists Are Not Robots: How we can show humanity in the room
Therapy as a Political Act: An interview with Dr. Travis Heath
What You Should Know About Walk and Talk and Other Non-Traditional Counseling Settings Part 1 and Part 2
Therapy with an Audience: An interview with Doug Friedman, LCSW
Small Town Sex Therapist: An interview with Jeanette Tolson, LCSW, CASAC
Whole Person Therapist Episodes
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
How Can Therapists Help Couples Recover from Infidelity?: An Interview with Dr. Talal H. Alsaleem Curt and Katie interview Dr. Talal H. Alsaleem, Psy.D, LMFT about System Affair Recovery Treatment (SART) and how therapists can better address infidelity in treatment. We discuss what therapists usually get wrong when working with infidelity, the difference between typical couples counseling and affair recovery, and why infidelity happens. We also look at the SART Model as well as tactics and treatment teaming.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Dr. Talal H. Alsaleem, PsyD, LMFT Award-winning marriage counselor and researcher, Dr. Talal H. Alsaleem is recognized as a leading expert in the field of infidelity counseling. He is the author of the acclaimed book, Infidelity: The Best Worst Thing that Could Happen to Your Marriage, and the founder of the Infidelity Counseling Center. His research interests and clinical work are focused on identifying the causes of infidelity and providing the best treatment for recovery from its impact. He developed Systematic Affair Recovery Therapy (SART) ™, a method of infidelity counseling that has helped hundreds of couples navigate the challenges of the healing journey from affairs. Dr. Alsaleem is an international lecturer and speaker. His engaging talks have helped many counselors broaden their understanding of infidelity and gain the necessary clinical tools to help their clients recover from affairs. Learn more at TalalAlsaleem.com.
In this podcast episode, we talk about Infidelity We explore with Dr. Talal Alsaleem what good infidelity counseling can look like and what therapists often get wrong when approaching this type of therapy.
What do therapists get wrong when working with infidelity? “Infidelity is really one of the most prevalent issues that couples face and it's one of the most damaging, but it's mind boggling to me that in this day and age as trained professionals, were so ill equipped to deal with it.” – Dr. Talal Alsaleem
- Not understanding the goal of infidelity counseling
- Lack of clear clinical expectations
- Getting too focused on the emotional expression
- Bias and lack of knowledge
- Lack of adequate training in graduate programs and internship sites
- Lack of understanding the etiology of the affair
What is different between couples counseling and affair recovery? * Strategy * Length of session * Importance of each intervention
Why does infidelity happen? * Can be either individual or relationship factors * Unhappiness within the relationship is not the only reason * Individual mental health issues, including personality disorders * Addiction including hypersexuality * Environmental factors, including jobs, gender ratios * Differentiating polyamory from infidelity * Social contracts and understanding and honoring the relationship
What is the Systemic Affair Recovery Treatment (SART) Model? “So in their quest to understand why the infidelity happened, we have to accept that the unfaithful is 100% responsible for the decision that they make for being unfaithful. So even in the worst case scenario, whether there was a huge relationship deficit, and you have the worst partner in the universe, that doesn't give you permission to cheat, you can take them to counseling, you can end the relationship before you cross those lines.” – Dr. Talal Alsaleem
- Seven milestones with clinical objectives and interventions
- Setting the stage for healing
- Getting the narrative of the affair
- Acknowledging the impact of the affair
- Choosing a path of recovery (individual or within the relationship)
- Creating an action plan
- Implementation
- Sustainability
- Infidelity can be the “best worst thing” that happens because you directly address what has happened
What are some of the tactics for healing infidelity and rebuilding a relationship? “I don't think that transparency is only needed when somebody discovers infidelity. I really think in a healthy relationship, there shouldn't be any secrets.” – Dr. Talal Alsaleem
- Transparency or surveillance does not equate to trust (it’s a tool or a means to an end)
- How much needs to change and how much will the unfaithful will agree to
- When the unfaithful can’t cut out the person with whom they’ve had an affair
- Helping the betrayed partner to stop rumination
Treatment teaming while working on affair recovery * Informed consent and making sure there is full access to individual therapists * Open lines of communication to make sure all therapists are on the same page * EMDR and Brainspotting are recommended to address trauma response of the betrayed partner
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Talal’s website: www.TalalAlsaleem.com
Dr. Talal Alsaleem on Facebook
Dr. Talal Alsaleem on Twitter
Dr. Talal Alsaleem on LinkedIn
Dr. Talal Alsaleem on YouTube
YOU CAN SIGN UP FOR THE SIGNED BOOK DRAWINGS IN THE SHOW NOTES OVER ON MTSGPODCAST.COM!
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Understanding Polyamory: An interview with Dana McNeil, LMFT
Sex and Shame: An interview with Eliza Boquin, LMFT
Let’s Talk About Sex: An interview with Liz Dube, LMFT
Small Town Sex Therapist: An interview with Jeannette Tolson, LCSW
What is Parental Alienation and How Can Therapists Successfully Treat It?
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Why Aren’t Men Becoming Therapists Anymore? Curt and Katie chat about the lack of male therapists and the decreasing number of male students in the profession. We look at current statistics and reported experiences of men in the field. We also dig into what needs to change to balance gender representation and increase the number of men becoming therapists.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about male therapists Continuing forward within men’s health month, we are looking at the state of the profession for male therapists.
Statistics on men in the mental health profession * Depending on license type, mental health professionals are between 60-90% female * Men and women have fairly equal parity on compensation (especially when looking at similar roles) * Men are less likely to seek out these jobs as the wages stagnate, the requirements become more onerous, and due to a lack of male representation and role models
What needs to change to balance gender representation within the mental health field? “Men typically have privilege in other spaces… And yet I recognize in our field, that's not the case. And so, it's this weird, complex understanding of societal privilege, but not privilege within the field.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Understanding the difference between societal privilege versus professional privilege
- Identifying why the number of men is dramatically decreasing within graduate programs and all stages of licensure
- The impact of feminism on the conversations about the impact of white men on the field
- The perception of “male bashing” and the need to nurture male voices within the profession
- The challenge of identifying when men are being ignored or “soloed out”
- The problem of stereotyping, ignoring, or isolating male therapists and students
- Men being automatically pushed into leadership due to mentorship by male faculty and bias toward men as leaders
How do we get more men into the mental health profession? “If we're identifying that men need to go and get mental health treatment, and there's no men to get it from, this then has the potential for reaching critical failure as a profession in being able to provide services.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Reaching critical failure in trying to provide services to men (if men no longer enter the profession)
- Recruitment strategies for graduate programs
- Making the profession sustainable for all individuals
- Pushing back against wage stagnation due to feminization of the profession
- Looking at retention and commitment for male therapists
- The importance of representation across the mental health profession
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Clinical Therapist Demographics and Statistics In The US
Number of women vs men in grad programs: https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/12/datapoint
Men’s experiences in the field:
https://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2011/01/cover-men
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12144-021-01960-9
Faculty experiences of teaching male students: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-015-0473-1
Recruiting men into the field: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259538918_A_Mixed_Methods_Study_of_Male_Recruitment_in_the_Counseling_Profession
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Why Men Don’t Stay in Therapy
On the APA Guidelines for Boys and Men
Why Therapists Quit
Why Therapists Quit part 2
The Return of Why Therapists Quit
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Why Men Don’t Stay in Therapy Curt and Katie chat about men’s mental health. We look at why men typically go to therapy, their experiences while in therapy, what therapists get wrong when working with men, and how therapists better support the needs of men seeking mental health treatment.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about men seeking therapy For Men’s Health Awareness month, we want to explore men seeking mental health services.
Why do men typically go to therapy? * Others telling men to go to therapy * Career or relationship issues * Depression, which looks like irritability and hostility (externalized behaviors)
What is the experience of men in therapy?
“Some of this research [on men accessing mental healthcare] shows that while men are increasing in the numbers presenting for mental health treatment, they tend to drop out earlier than women and they tend to drop out at a lot faster rate than women. So that to me says that we as a field are doing something wrong, that we are not able to meet the needs of men. All of that great advice out of ‘hey, go and seek mental health treatment,’ is falling on people who are trying it out and finding bad experiences with it. “– Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Therapy seems to try to get men to emote like women
- Invalidating masculine presentations and behaviors
- Equating masculinity with toxic masculinity
- Not feeling safe to express emotions beyond confidence, neutrality, or anger
How can therapists better serve men seeking therapy? * Understanding and honoring a range of masculinities (even within the same client) * Helping men to broaden their range of emotional expression * Problem-solving, solution-focused can be helpful for men who want to have a clearly defined goal to work toward * Collaboratively creating treatment goals * Identity work that supports self-definition of masculinity
What can therapists get wrong when working with men in therapy?
“There is such a broad array of understandings at this point of what masculinity and what ‘real men do’ that I think we need to be aware that whether it's traditional gender roles, or more current… there's some need for an understanding of where your client sits.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Framing masculinity and toxic masculinity solely as “bad”
- Not digging more deeply into individual development around masculinity
- Taking offense at their client’s gender identity or ignoring their own bias around “traditional gender roles”
- How therapists characterize men’s presenting problems (assigning blame, like depression being seen as anger or hostility, men being described as violent rather than traumatized)
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Men’s mental health: Spaces and places that work for men
Why it’s time to focus on masculinity in mental health training and clinical practice
Men’s Dropout From Mental Health Services: Results From a Survey of Australian Men Across the Life Span
Improving Mental Health Service Utilization Among Men: A Systematic Review and Synthesis of Behavior Change Techniques Within Interventions Targeting Help-Seeking
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: On the APA Guidelines for Boys and Men
Antiracist Practices in the Room: An interview with Dr. Allen Lipscomb
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders
What to Know When Providing Therapy for Elite Athletes
Speaking up for Mental Health Awareness: An interview with Metta World Peace
When is it Discrimination?
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What is Play Therapy?: An Interview with Ofra Obejas, LCSW Curt and Katie interview Ofra Obejas, LCSW, RPT-S, about working with children in therapy. We look at what therapists often get wrong, important factors to understand, specialized training required (including play therapy), and what you actually do in therapy session with children.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Ofra Obejas, LCSW, Registered Play Therapist - Supervisor Ofra Obejas, Registered Play Therapist - Supervisor level, is a professional player. She works with elementary- to middle-school aged children. She’s been called by some of her clients a “kid grownup.” (That’s her rapper name.) She’s taught at the University of San Diego Play Therapy program and presents webinars and courses on clinical topics related to children’s issues.
In this podcast episode, we talk about Play Therapy We reached out to our friend, Ofra Obejas to talk with us about how to work with kiddos and what additional training is needed to work effectively with children.
What do therapists get wrong when working with children? * Treating children like mini-adults * Not understanding the skill involved in play therapy
What are important factors for therapists to understand when working with children?
“It’s more scary to the children when the adult is incongruent and not showing their true feelings. It's less scary to see somebody angry than it is to see somebody pretending that they're not angry, but they are.” – Ofra Obejas, LCSW
- Children have a different culture (i.e., the tooth fairy is real)
- The therapist’s role as translator for what children are saying
- Children will make you feel what they feel (e.g., powerlessness, never getting anything right)
- The importance of showing feelings to children as a therapist (versus remaining a blank slate)
What do you do with children in therapy sessions? * Psychodrama and re-enacting situations * Therapists can use any theoretical orientation * Ways to interact with the child * Paying attention to transference and countertransference * Case conceptualization, including family therapy and work with parents
What specialized training is most effective for working with children?
“So, what is the therapy on a bumper sticker? If you had to put it in three words, it's notice it, sit with it, and make meaning of it. Or in an experiential [play therapy] model, it's: you observe it, you name it, and then you model how to cope with it.” – Ofra Obejas, LCSW
- There are specialized protocols for working with children with many different orientations
- Identifying which orientation suits you
- How to understand what is being reenacted and how to respond: Notice it, sit with it, make meaning of it; Observe it, name it, model how to cope with it
What boundaries should therapists set when working with children and families? * Unit of treatment (family, individual, who was showing up to the session?) * Treatment goals (what are we working on?) * What children are allowed to do in the session * Interactions with caregivers and the responsibilities caregivers have during sessions
What does online therapy look like with children? * The challenges with working with children online * Online sand tray, online dollhouse, online puppet theater * Creating a virtual play room * New trainings for VR therapy for children * Watching children play video games online
How has the pandemic impacted children? * This was dependent on how well parents were able to self-regulate and stay within the window of tolerance (was there someone who could help the child to regulate) * Lack of socialization and difficulty in having conversations
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16-day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn.
The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field.
To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Ofra Obejas’ website: redondovillagecounseling.com
Ofra on YouTube
UCSD - Play Therapy Program
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: How Therapists Can Really Help Kids Who Are Being Bullied
Infant and Early Childhood Mental Health: An interview with Dr. Barbara Stroud
What is Parental Alienation and How Can Therapists Successfully Treat it?
Rage and Client Self-Harm: An interview with Angela Caldwell, LMFT
Let’s Talk About Race: An interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
How Therapists Can Really Help Kids Who Are Being Bullied Curt and Katie chat about how therapists can support the targets of bullying. We explore what bullying actually is as well as what can be problematic in how it is typically addressed. We also discuss individual therapy strategies for kids who have been bullied. Curt and Katie also debate about whether the targets of bullying should change what makes them different to avoid getting bullied.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can effectively treat bullying in therapy For Bullying Prevention month, we decided to dig into what bullying actually is and how therapists can treat bullying in therapy.
What is bullying actually? * The definition of bullying and how it is described currently (i.e., teasing versus bullying) * Target and aggressor (versus victim and bully) as more appropriate language to describe participants * Three essential elements of bullying: ongoing behavior, behavior is intended to be harmful, and there is a power differential between the aggressor and the target * The relevance of impact versus intention of behavior * Numerous types of power imbalances that can be present * Types: physical, verbal, social or covert, cyber bullying
What is problematic in how bullying is typically addressed?
“Aggressors have a more robust set of social skills. And it's being able to adapt more quickly to things that are socially changing, even in the moment. This also plays a role in the reporting on the people teasing them because the more socially adept kids are then better able to convince the adults around them. Oh, no, we were just playing. We were teasing back and forth.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Most bullying is not observed by adults
- Not moving past holding space
- Looking toward community interventions rather than individual
- Lack of understanding of what cyber bullying actually looks like (when you haven’t grown up as a digital native)
- Aggressors have a more robust set of social skills
Strategies for kids who have been bullied
“I think we also need to recognize that if we go too far in telling people not to be different, we are invalidating their identity. And if we don't go far enough, and we don't help them to be part of society, they may continue to get really harshly bullied, but either one is damaging.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Beyond ignoring (especially if there is an audience)
- Understanding what the target’s response means to the aggressor
- Not playing into what the aggressor is doing, escalating to forceful “stop,” seeking out a trusted adult (or multiple adults)
- Debate on whether a target should shift their behavior and change what makes them different
- Building confidence versus masking
- Safety now versus identity development
- Practicing responses to potential bullying statements in session
- Including targets in the planning process with adults
- The challenges with mediation within school settings (and the importance of follow up)
- Systemic or prevention programs that also address bystanders
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16 day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn.
The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field.
To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Article: Parent-Assisted Social Skills Training to Improve Friendships in Teens with Autism Spectrum Disorders
Article: The 411 on Bullying
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults
The Practicalities of Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth: An interview with Jordan Held, LCSW
Working with Trans Clients: Trans resilience and gender euphoria – An interview with Beck Gee-Cohen
Neurodivergence: An interview with Dr. Joel Schwartz
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Modern Therapists Should Know About Law Enforcement Mental Health: An Interview with Cyndi Doyle, LPC Curt and Katie interview Cyndi Doyle on the mental health of law enforcement officers. We look at how being a cop impacts their mental health as well as specific incidents and the chronic desensitization. We also explore the feelings in law enforcement related to calls to defund the police and how society views the cops. Content warning: potentially traumatic incidents (violence, death)
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Cyndi Doyle, LPC Cyndi Doyle is a Licensed Professional Counselor, group practice co-owner, founder of Code4Couples®, podcaster, and author of Hold the Line: The Essential Guide to Protecting Your Law Enforcement Relationship. She has spoken nationally and internationally including at the International Association of Chiefs of Police Conferences (IACP), the FBI National Academy Association (FBINAA) Conference, keynoted at police spouse conferences throughout the country, and at trained various police departments. While much of her work focuses on first responders, Cyndi’s stories of embracing and wrestling with living her own bold and authentic life have resulted in her being a sought-after speaker for other mental health professionals. Her message of humanizing struggle, compassion, courage, and resilience has resulted in her speaking nationally and even keynoting at the 2020 Texas Counseling Association Professional Growth Conference. That same year, the American Counseling Association awarded her the Samuel Gladding Unsung Heroes Award for her work with first responders and contribution to the field of counseling.
In this podcast episode, we talk about Law Enforcement Mental Health We reached out to our friend, Cyndi Doyle to explore a population of folks who we typically don’t think about as our patients: Law Enforcement Officers (LEO).
What should modern therapists know about the mental health of Law Enforcement Officers and their families?
“[Law Enforcement Officers] don't feel safe, not just their physical safety, but emotional safety. Many times, they don't feel supported by their communities. They don't feel supported by their departments, by their administration. …Would you really want to go to a job every day where you were potentially hated?” – Cyndi Doyle, LPC
- Different dynamics than typical couples
- The definition of cynicism
- How training impacts the mental health of officers
- Misinterpretation of control versus abuse
- Over diagnosis of trauma
The negative impacts on police officers of the heightened scrutiny and criticism * Hypervigilance and the impact of cameras on police offers performing their jobs * The lack of support from the community (or the legislators or even law enforcement leadership) for officers * Lack of compassion satisfaction, considering quitting their job, PTSD * The impact on Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) families
Exploration of the calls to defund the police and fund other resources
“You'll see the cellphone videos or the videos out there of officers playing basketball or playing football or engaging with the community. And that's what community policing is. Community policing is the idea of I know my community well enough to know who potentially has a mental health situation that I need to be aware of.” – Cyndi Doyle, LPC
- Looking at the law enforcement response to defunding the police
- Exploring community policing and how that could help decrease abuses
- The cultural shifts and education happening at police departments
- The potential for mental health resources being added to policing
- When staffing is down, there is less time to recuperate and be prepared for work
Mental Health Concerns that bring law enforcement officers and their families into therapy
“Sometimes we assume, I think, as clinicians that like oh, that would be traumatic for me to see. When in actuality [cops] have seen it so often that there's a desensitization. Now, does the desensitization impact to them? Sure. It also doesn't mean that every situation is traumatic to them. That unfortunately, once you've seen something or done something time and time again, it cannot impact you the same way.” – Cyndi Doyle, LPC
- Stress, Anxiety, Depression, Addiction
- Relationships, family and couple
- Incident, critical incident, trauma
- Desensitization to violent incidents, injuries, and death
- The personalization in incidents that can cause more of a trauma response
- The insufficient training to build resilience for law enforcement officers
- The shifting culture that is now recognizing mental health as health, but the ongoing stigma for seeking support
Cynicism, lack of empathy, and bias in Law Enforcement * The mindset that narrows down to “everyone” behaves * Working to make officers more human, so they can see more good in the world * The importance of supporting the resilience and empathy within LEO (while recognizing that some of these things are not helpful “on the job”)
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16-day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn.
The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field.
To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Code 4 Couples
Cyndi Doyle.com
Social media:
https://www.instagram.com/code4couples/
https://www.facebook.com/code4couples
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cyndidoylelpc/
https://www.instagram.com/cyndi_doyle/ https://www.facebook.com/cyndi.b.doyle
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Therapists on the Hostage Negotiation Team: An interview with Dr. Andy Young
Treating First Responders: An interview with Yael Shuman, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Medical Assistance in Death (MAiD) in Canada: Mental Illness and Assisted Suicide Curt and Katie chat about assisted suicide related to an upcoming expansion of the MAiD laws in Canada to include mental illness. We discuss what these laws seems to say as well as how they might impact patients, medical providers, and therapists. We explore the moral and ethical questions as well as what other countries have done to put in further safeguards to protect patients and doctors.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about the expansion of Medical Assistance in Death laws in Canada We have been watching the MAiD laws in Canada that are soon going to include assistance in death for folks with mental illness. We talk about the law and the concerns we have related to the safeguards (or lack of safeguards).
What are the updates coming to the Medical Assistance in Death laws in Canada? * With the approval of 2 medical professionals and a 24-month waiting period (for psychological illness), individuals can get medication or an injection from a medical provider to end their lives * Requirements for application include chronic, “grievous and irremediable” conditions * Information on requirements are here: Final Report of the Expert Panel on MAiD and Mental Illness * The differences in laws in other countries that seem to have more safeguards in place
What are the moral and ethical questions facing medical and mental health providers?
“Do we have the right – the moral right – as therapists, mental health professionals of any sort of background or license, to tell clients that they must live or that it is okay for them to end their life?” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- What responsibilities do mental health providers have to their clients related to end of life?
- Who will be negatively impacted versus who will be positively impacted?
- Who would qualify and who would seek out assistance in dying?
“I'm not worried that someone that's a little depressed is going to decide they want to die by suicide… I think it's more that there are going to be folks [diagnosed with serious mental illness who are receiving insufficient mental health care] … who really don't feel like they have options (and maybe they don't) and they choose to die by suicide versus advocating for stronger treatment.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- What is mental illness? Is it only what is in the ICD or DSM?
- What are the impacts of these laws on physicians?
- Concerns raised by First Nations groups in Canada
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16 day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn.
The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field.
To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Final Report of the Expert Panel on MAiD and Mental Illness
NY Times: Is Choosing Death Too Easy in Canada?
Medical Assistance in Dying in Canada: Too Much, Too Fast?
Canadian and Dutch doctors’ roles in assistance in dying
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Part 1: Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults
Part 2: What Therapists Should Actually Do for Suicidal Clients: Assessment, safety planning, and least intrusive intervention
What's new in the DSM 5-T-R? An interview with Dr. Michael B. First
When Clients Die: An interview with Debi Frankle, LMFT
Therapists Struggling with Darkness
Suicidal Therapists: An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW
Therapist Suicide
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Therapists Should Actually Do for Suicidal Clients: Assessment, safety planning, and least intrusive intervention Curt and Katie chat about suicide assessment, safety planning, and how to keep clients out of the hospital. We reviewed the Integrated Motivational Volitional Model for Suicide, we talked about what therapists should be assessing for in every session, what strong assessment looks like (and suggested suicide assessment protocols), and why the least restrictive environment is so important when you are designing interventions and safety planning. This is a continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about suicide assessment, safety planning, and intervention We continue our conversation on suicide, progressing from risk factors (from last week’s episode) to how to assess and safety plan with the least intrusive interventions at the earliest stages.
Review of the Suicide Model: Integrated Motivational Volitional Model by O’Connor and Kirtley * Continued to review the IMV model (graphic in the show notes at mtsgpodcast.com)
What should therapists assess for in every session, related to suicide?
“When clinicians are burnt out, when we have caseloads that are too big, when we aren't taking care of ourselves, we tend to [think], “Okay, this client is at a six, they can live at a six for a while,” which is absolutely true. And if they can [live with this level of suicidality], and they have the good factors that allow them to live there – great. It's just how close are they to that 7, 8, 9?” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Moderating motivational factors, which move clients from passive to more active suicidality (or the reverse)
- Looking at what is keeping someone from being at risk for suicide (protective factors)
- The importance of knowing our clients well before they move into the volitional phase
- Understanding the clinician factors and putting structure around assessment
Assessment for Suicide
“Assessment is intervention.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- SAMHSA’s GATE protocol
- Gather information using a structured assessment tool (Columbia Scale, LRAMP)
- Looking at intention, means, plan as well as risk and protective factors
- Moving into a safety plan
- The importance of recognizing the human during the assessment (versus focusing only on the protocol or your liability)
- Seeking supervision or consultation – don’t do this alone
The importance of using the least restrictive intervention for suicide
“There is a rupture in the therapeutic relationship when you are sending your client or facilitating a hospitalization against their will. It can save their lives …but that may not always be the case.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- The idea of “responsible” action
- The range of options for keeping a client safe
- Having a conversation with the client on how to avoid attempting suicide
- The potential impacts of hospitalization, including trauma
- The danger of hospitalizing someone who does not need this level of intervention
- Additional intervention between sessions
- The practicalities to set up your schedule and your practice to support your clients and your self
- Additional risk factors (transition phases between providers)
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16 day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn.
The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field.
To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
SAMHSA’s TIP with the GATE Protocol
COLUMBIA-SUICIDE SEVERITY RATING SCALE
LINEHAN RISK ASSESSMENT AND MANAGEMENT PROTOCOL (LRAMP)
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Carmel, A., Templeton, E., Sorenson, S. M., & Logvinenko, E. (2018). Using the Linehan Risk Assessment and Management Protocol with a chronically suicidal patient: A case report. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice, 25(4), 449-459.
Goldman-Mellor S, Olfson M, Lidon-Moyano C, Schoenbaum M. Association of suicide and other mortality with emergency department presentation. JAMA Netw Open. 2019; 2(12):e1917571.
Interian, A., Chesin, M., Kline, A., Miller, R., St. Hill, L., Latorre, M., ... & Stanley, B. (2018). Use of the Columbia-Suicide Severity Rating Scale (C-SSRS) to classify suicidal behaviors. Archives of suicide research, 22(2), 278-294.
Linehan, M. M., Comtois, K. A., & Ward-Ciesielski, E. F. (2012). Assessing and managing risk with suicidal individuals. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice, 19(2), 218-232.
Pinals, D. A. (2019). Liability and patient suicide. Focus, 17(4), 349-354.
Posner, K., Brent, D., Lucas, C., Gould, M., Stanley, B., Brown, G., ... & Mann, J. (2008). Columbia-suicide severity rating scale (C-SSRS). New York, NY: Columbia University Medical Center, 10.
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (US); (2009. Addressing Suicidal Thoughts And Behaviors in Substance Abuse Treatment [Internet]. Rockville (MD): (Treatment Improvement Protocol (TIP) Series, No. 50.) Available from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64022/
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Part 1: Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults
Rage and Client Self-Harm: An interview with Angela Caldwell
Work Harder Than Your Clients
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults Curt and Katie chat about suicide risk factors. Suicide rates have been increasing across the nation and there is an increasing need for the mental health workforce to be prepared to assess and intervene with clients of all ages. We take an in-depth look at the risk and protective factors associated with suicidal ideology and behaviors in both teens and adults. We also lay the beginning foundations of a suicide model to help clinicians better understand and intervene with clients exhibiting suicidal thoughts. This is a continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we explore what makes someone more likely to attempt suicide We’ve talked frequently about suicide, but thought it would be important, especially during Suicide Prevention Awareness Month, to go more deeply into the risk factors that make someone more likely to attempt and complete suicide.
What are the highest risk factors for suicide?
“Anxiety Sensitivity… the fear of the feelings of being anxious… is even more so correlated with suicidal ideation and suicide attempts than depression is.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Defining acute, active suicidality (versus passive or chronic suicidality or non-suicidal self-Injury)
- Going beyond the list of risk factors to how big of a risk each factor is for attempting or completing suicide
- Exploring how impactful a previous attempt is on whether someone is likely to attempt of complete suicide
- The importance of getting a complete history of suicidality and suicide attempts at intake
- The impact of family members who have attempted or died by suicide
- Alcohol and other substance use and abuse as an additive risk factor
- Cooccurring mental disorders (eating disorders, psychosis and serious mental illness, depression, anxiety and anxiety sensitivity, personality disorders)
- Child abuse history, especially folks with a history of sexual abuse history
- Life transitions, especially unplanned and sudden life transitions
- Owning a firearm makes you 50 times more likely to die by suicide
- Racial differences in who is more likely to attempt or complete suicide
- Living at a high elevation
What are additional risk factors for suicide specific to teens? * Early onset of mental illness * Environmental factors * Exposure to other suicides (social media, contagion) * Not being able to identify other options * Seeking control over their lives and lacking impulse control leading to suicide attempts * The importance of communication and the potential for a lack of communication * Bullying and lack of social support, without a way to escape due to social media and cell phones
What are protective factors when assessing for suicidality?
“Just because protective factors are present doesn't mean that they balance out risk factors [for suicide].”– Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Reasons for living, responsibility to others
- Spirituality or attending a place of worship that teaches against suicide
- Where you live based on cultural or societal factors
- Having a children or child-rearing responsibilities, intact marriage
- Strong social support, employment
- Relationship with a therapist
Suicide Model: Integrated Motivational Volitional Model by O’Connor and Kirtley * Reviewing the model shown in the graphic in the show notes at mtsgpodcast.com
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Information on the ACEs Study
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Bodell, L. P., Cheng, Y., & Wildes, J. E. (2019). Psychological Impairment as a Predictor of Suicide Ideation in Individuals with Anorexia Nervosa. Suicide & life-threatening behavior, 49(2), 520–528. https://doi.org/10.1111/sltb.12459
Borges, G., Bagge, C. L., Cherpitel, C. J., Conner, K. R., Orozco, R., & Rossow, I. (2017). A meta-analysis of acute use of alcohol and the risk of suicide attempt. Psychological medicine, 47(5), 949–957. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0033291716002841
Bostwick, C. Pabbati, J. Geske, A. McKean (2016) Suicide Attempt as a Risk Factor for Completed Suicide: Even More Lethal Than We Knew Am. J. Psychiatry, 173 (11), pp. 1094-1100, 10.1176/appi.ajp.2016.15070854
Brådvik, L. Suicide risk and mental disorders. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public Health 2018, 15, 2028
Campisi, S.C., Carducci, B., Akseer, N. et al. (2020) Suicidal behaviours among adolescents from 90 countries: a pooled analysis of the global school-based student health survey. BMC Public Health 20, 1102. https://doi.org/10.1186/s12889-020-09209-z
Doyle, M., While, D., Mok, P.L.H. et al. Suicide risk in primary care patients diagnosed with a personality disorder: a nested case control study. BMC Fam Pract 17, 106 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12875-016-0479-y
Martin, M.S., Dykxhoorn, J., Afifi, T.O. et al. (2016) Child abuse and the prevalence of suicide attempts among those reporting suicide ideation. Soc Psychiatry Psychiatr Epidemiol 51, 1477–1484. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00127-016-1250-3
O'Connor RC, Kirtley OJ. The integrated motivational-volitional model of suicidal behaviour. Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. 2018;373
Stanley, I. H., Boffa, J. W., Rogers, M. L., Hom, M. A., Albanese, B. J., Chu, C., Capron, D. W., Schmidt, N. B., & Joiner, T. E. (2018). Anxiety sensitivity and suicidal ideation/suicide risk: A meta-analysis. Journal of consulting and clinical psychology, 86(11), 946–960. https://doi.org/10.1037/ccp0000342
Twenge, J. M., Cooper, A. B., Joiner, T. E., Duffy, M. E., & Binau, S. G. (2019, March 14). Age, Period, and Cohort Trends in Mood Disorder Indicators and Suicide-Related Outcomes in a Nationally Representative Dataset, 2005–2017. Journal of Abnormal Psychology. Advance online publication. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/abn0000410
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Rage and Client Self-Harm: An interview with Angela Caldwell
How to Understand and Treat Psychosis: An interview with Maggie Mullen
Navigating the Food and Eating Minefield: An interview with Robyn Goldberg
How Therapists Promote Diet Culture: An interview with Rachel Coleman
The Practicalities of Mental Health and Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth: An Interview with Jordan Held, LCSW
Working with Trans Clients: Trans Resilience and Gender Euphoria: An interview with Beck Gee-Cohen
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
How Therapists Can Manage a Sedentary Job: An interview with Celina Caovan, DPT Curt and Katie interview Celina Caovan about physical self-care for therapists. We talk about how to mitigate the impacts of a sedentary job as well as the benefits of physical therapy and consistent physical activity. We also look into what physical therapy is, how clients can advocate for it, and how therapists might collaborate to support the physical and mental health of their patients.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Celina Caovan, DPT Celina Caovan received both her undergraduate degree and Doctorate of Physical Therapy degree from the University of Southern California. She has been practicing in an outpatient orthopedic setting in the South Bay in California for the last two years and is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist.
In this podcast episode, we talk about how therapists can take care of their bodies while working in a sedentary job Many therapist friends of ours have described low back pain and challenges in maintaining physical health when much of the work we do is while sitting.
What should therapists know about physical activity and physical therapy?
“Physical therapists are trained movement experts… we can diagnose, we can treat using hands on skills, patient education, and then we prescribe individual exercise for a bunch of different injuries, the ultimate goal being to improve the way someone moves and emphasize injury prevention. And the cool thing about physical therapy: it can be an alternative to pain medication, in a society where they prescribe a lot of a lot of pain medication, and then surgery as well.” – Celina Caovan, DPT
- There are a number of subspecialties in physical therapy to support all different elements of improving movement
- The importance of moving outside of a sedentary job
- US Department of Health guidelines on activity levels
What can therapists do to take care of themselves during the work week? * Getting out of the chair, some chair exercises * Stretching and gentle movements during the breaks between sessions * No drastic differences in activity from the work week to the weekend (i.e., avoid weekend warrior behavior, especially when extremely sedentary during the week_ * Slowly increase activity and gradually increase cardio or resistance training * Stretching (static and dynamic), warming up, and cooling down
How can therapists think about physical therapy for their clients?
“Someone's physical and mental health – that’s interconnected… that mind body connection. And I think this would be a really great opportunity for us to create this interdisciplinary relationship where we can approach it from a physical and mental standpoint.” – Celina Caovan, DPT
- Referrals and direct access to physical therapy
- Psychoeducation and support for advocacy to obtain physical therapy
- Chiropractors versus physical therapists
- How physical and mental health therapists can collaborate to support patients
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Physical Activity Guidelines for Americans from the US Department of Health and Human Services
Beach Cities Orthopedics and Sports Medicine
Reach out to Celina Caovan, DPT: celinaDPT at gmail.com
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Managing Chronic Pain and Illness: An interview with Daniela Paolone, MFT
How Therapists Promote Diet Culture: An interview with Rachel Coleman, LMFT, CEDS
What You Should Know About Walk & Talk and Other Non-Traditional Therapy Settings Part 1, Part 2
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Therapists on the Hostage Negotiation Team and Supporting Police Work: An interview with Dr. Andy Young Curt and Katie interview Andy Young about hostage (crisis) negotiation and his work with SWAT and crisis negotiation in Lubbock, TX. Content warning: discussion of violence, suicide, and homicide. We talk about what therapists can do within police departments, the interplay between mental health and law enforcement, what that work looks like – especially when involved in crisis negotiation, and skills therapists need when working in these settings. We also look at trauma response and how it is handled when things go south.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Dr. Andy Young Dr. Andy Young has been a Professor of Psychology and Counseling at Lubbock Christian University since 1996 and a negotiator and psychological consultant with the Lubbock Police Department’s SWAT team since 2000. He also heads LPD’s Victim Services Unit and is the director of the department’s Critical Incident Stress Management Team. He has been on the negotiating team at the Lubbock County Sheriff’s Office since 2008 and is on the team at the Texas Department of Public Safety (Texas Rangers, Special Operations, Region 5). He is the author of, “Fight or Flight: Negotiating Crisis on the Frontline” and “When Every Word Counts: An Insider’s View of Crisis Negotiations.” He was recently added as a third author for the 6th Edition of “Crisis Negotiations: Managing Critical Incidents and Hostage Situations in Law Enforcement and Corrections”.
In this podcast episode, we talk about the role therapists can play in crisis negotiation There have been many calls to defund the police and create roles for mental health professionals in law enforcement. Dr. Andy Young has already been doing this for 20 years. We talked with him about what that experience looks like.
What can therapists do for law enforcement? * Crisis counseling * Hostage or Crisis Negotiation support (advising on the negotiation) * Psychiatric consultation * Predicting violence or suicide, assessing subjects’ mental health
What is the interplay between mental health and law enforcement? * Police officers get 40 hours of active listening and mental health * Officers started out a bit stand-offish, reported increased mental load due to needing to protect mental health professionals at the scene * Finding value in taking mental health out of scope of law enforcement * There is a huge importance in developing relationship with the officers * Specialized training needed that can support integrating mental health providers into law enforcement teams
What does work look like for therapists in law enforcement and crisis negotiation? * Coaching on communication * Assessing the situation and the subject * Strategizing interventions to de-escalate the situation * Provide context and reassurance to law enforcement professionals * Hostage Negotiation calls are typically once to twice a month (and not every month). * There are successful outcomes 97% of the time
How do these law enforcement and mental health providers handle things when they go south?
“There's me and other people like me – therapists who understand the law enforcement culture, and even are trusted by the law enforcement culture – where officers will reach out for additional assistance if they believe that they need it [after a traumatic incident]. And of course, me being around just walking through the halls of the police department, inevitably, somebody will say, 'Hey, can I talk to you for a minute?' and then it gets personal”. – Dr. Andy Young
- Crisis support
- Critical Incident Stress Management
- Mental health providers who are accepted within the law enforcement culture
- The political, investigative and personal elements of a lethal force incident
- Processing and debriefing within the team
What skills should therapists have to work with law enforcement and hostage negotiation?
“People get to make decisions for themselves. And we might be able to coach people on how to land the airplane, but they get to land the airplane themselves. And in my office, that's one thing. But out on the street where there's guns or elevated positions that we can jump off of or innocent people that we can kill. It's the same principle, but at its extreme, and it really tests a person about being able to apply that to yourself and your circumstances.” – Dr. Andy Young
- Pragmatic and understanding the situation you’re in
- Practical, knowing your own limits
- Ability to manage emotional situations calmly
- Navigating the extreme stakes out in the streets
- Understanding law enforcement
The benefit of having a mental health provider on a hostage negotiation team * Training the team on mental health concerns * Improving “batting average” on successful outcomes * The importance of a well-trained team
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
www.DrAndyYoung.com
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Treating First Responders: An interview with Yael Shuman, LMFT
Special Series: Psychiatric Crises in the Emergency Room
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Why Therapists Shouldn’t Be Taught Business in Grad School Curt and Katie debate whether graduate school programs for therapists should include business education. We look at the pros and cons for including business education for students, specifically identifying a mismatched developmental level, bloated curriculums, and underutilized career resources. We also look at the responsibility graduate schools have to their students to be employable or to be able to create a sustainable business.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about whether clinical grad programs should include business education We have seen marketing that highlights that business isn’t taught in grad school (and have done a lot of it ourselves). We discuss whether it actually should be included.
What is already included in grad school for therapists? * A large number of clinical courses required for graduation * Career centers and other business resources may be available, but not used
What career or business resources should therapists get through graduate school? * Career centers with up-to-date relevant employment resources * Potentially an optional class or workshop for how to run a business
Why shouldn’t business education be added to clinical programs?
“The timing of it just isn't right. Like, yeah, these are ideas that can be introduced, but the practicalities of it, in my experience, just aren't developmentally where a lot of grad students are… I don't think that [teaching someone to run a business] at a developmental time when people aren't capable for it or aren't ready for it – or legally not allowed to put those things in place – it just ends up being so far off that it's not a practical sort of training thing.” – Curt Widhalm
- Accreditation bodies don’t access for employability, so programs won’t focus their attention
- The increasing number of credits required to become a therapist
- Developmentally inappropriate timing for what therapists are able to do when they graduate
What would business education look like if it were included in graduate programs?
“I'm not ready to let the grad schools off the hook for their responsibility to students. I feel like they are responsible to students to adequately prepare them for the job.” – Katie Vernoy
- Potentially lackluster participation due to overwhelm
- The importance of introducing what clinicians will actually face
- Seminar versus a full course
- Orientation to job options and business basics
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Saving Psychotherapy by Dr. Ben Caldwell
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: I Just Graduated Now What? Career Advice for New Mental Health Clinicians
The Clinical Supervision Crisis for Early Career Therapists: An Interview with Dr. Amy Parks
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy: An Interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell
Why Therapists Quit
Career Trekking with MTSG: An interview with Marissa Esquibel, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Goes in Your Notes? Interstate therapy practice and documentation for clients considering abortion or gender affirming care Curt and Katie chat about documentation and practice questions related to abortion or gender affirming care when providing therapy to folks in states where these types of medical care are banned or will be banned soon. We look at medical documentation privacy concerns (related to HIPAA and the 21st Century Cures Act), how therapists avoid “aiding and abetting” a client to get an abortion, what to include in your notes, and special considerations related to duty to warn and child abuse reporting. This is a law and ethics continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we explore post-Roe documentation for therapists We’ve heard a lot of questions about what therapists should do now that Roe has been overturned. We decided to dig into practice and documentation guidelines to help modern therapists navigate the changing times.
Medical documentation privacy concerns with interstate practice and the new abortion bans
“Your records aren't as private as you think that they are.” - Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- HIPAA and the 21st Century Cures Act
- The impact on clients who move from safe haven states to states with abortion bans
- The impact of the Counseling Compact (and similar mental health compacts) and how many participating states have trigger laws to ban or limit abortion
- Paying attention to jurisdictional differences and where the client lives
- Who qualifies as a HIPAA covered entity?
- Psychotherapy (Process) Notes versus Progress Notes
- Psychotherapy notes are not defined the same and/or protected in every state
- The impact of civil law suits on confidentiality of process notes
- The huge challenge of information blocking and who may pass along your treatment information
- Talk to an attorney or your professional organization when subpoenaed
How do you avoid “aiding and abetting” a client to get an abortion during mental health treatment? * Processing feelings and helping client to make their own decisions * Aiding and abetting can include telling them where to go, encouraging them to get an abortion, or providing practical support (like money or a ride) * How to provide resources without aiding and abetting * Self-empowerment and clients making their own decisions * Liability and risk in practice (check with your malpractice insurance) * Whether/how you let your clients know where you stand on the overturn of Roe v Wade
What do you include in your notes when talking about abortion and gender affirming care?
“You need to give meaningful consideration to what goes in [the mental health] record and you also want to be clear in what you're talking about with your clients. So, that way you're not unintentionally aiding and abetting a client who's living in one of these states where an abortion ban is currently in place.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- What is relevant to your treatment goals?
- Documenting progress toward treatment goals
- Creating a policy related to medical decision-making
- Phrases that you can use to briefly describe what is happening in session
- How much to document and the recommendation to be less specific in progress notes when discussing medical decisions
The special considerations related to duty to warn and child abuse reporting when talking about abortion and gender affirming care * No case law to guide us here * The difference between permissive versus required reporting * Vast differences across the states with all of the different pieces * HIPAA says that we should not report, but we will be impacted by state laws * Recommendations to pay attention to what is happening in the states where you practice and to identify advocacy opportunities to protect information, safe haven laws
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
21st Century Cures Act
Person-Centered Tech (help to become HIPAA compliant)
What the End of Roe v. Wade Does (and Doesn’t) Mean for Your Relationship With Your Therapist | by Monika Sudakov | Jul, 2022 | Medium
Frequently asked questions about abortion laws and psychology practice (apaservices.org)
Information blocking FAQs
HIPAA, Psychotherapy Notes, and Other Mental Health Records by Holland and Hart
Additional references mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Holloway, J.D. (2003). More protections for patients and psychologists under HIPAA. American Psychological Association. https://www.apa.org/monitor/feb03/hipaa#:~:text=Under%20HIPAA%2C%20psychotherapy%20notes%20are,can%20contain%20information%20that%20is
Stranger, K. (2020). HIPAA, Psychotherapy Notes, and Other Mental Health Records. https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/hipaa-psychotherapy-notes-and-other-42359/
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (2013). Summary of the HIPAA Privacy Rule. https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-professionals/privacy/laws-regulations/index.html#:~:text=The%20Privacy%20Rule%20protects%20all,health%20information%20(PHI).%22
Zubrzycki, C. (2022) Abortion’s Interoperability Trap: How the Law of Medical Records Will Facilitate Interstate Persecution of Contested Medical Procedures, and What to Do about It. Yale Law Journal Forum, Forthcoming, http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.4147900
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: What Therapists Need to Know about Abortion and Termination for Medical Reasons: An Interview with Jane Armstrong
The Practicalities of Mental Health and Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth: An Interview with Jordan Held, LCSW
Working with Trans Clients: Trans Resilience and Gender Euphoria: An interview with Beck Gee-Cohen
Is the Counseling Compact Good for Therapists?
Now Therapists Have to Document Every F*cking Thing in Our Progress Notes?
Noteworthy Documentation: An interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell (on the 21st Century Cures Act)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Speaking Up for Mental Health Awareness: An Interview with Metta World Peace Curt and Katie interview Metta World Peace about his efforts toward mental health advocacy, awareness, and access. We explore what led him to speak up, the challenges he’s faced as a public figure, his solutions for prevention, and how his businesses and philanthropy support mental health.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Metta World Peace Metta World Peace played professional basketball for 19 years. He won the NBA World Championship with the LA Lakers in June 2010 and received the J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award – the NBA’s highest citizenship and community service honor – in April 2011. He was selected to the 2005-06 NBA’s All-Defensive Team, was voted by the media as 2003-04 NBA’s Defensive Player of the Year and was the only man with 271 steals in his first two seasons in the NBA, breaking Michael Jordan’s record. His autobiography, “No Malice: My Life in Basketball” was released in May 2018 with Triumph Publishing and a documentary on his life in basketball, “Ron Artest: The Quiet Storm” was released on Showtime in May 2019. World Peace is currently pursuing entrepreneurial projects including the XvsX Sports project he cofounded in 2017 and an NFT project, Meta Panda Club, to bring decentralized basketball community to the masses.
World Peace is also known as a prominent mental health advocate, pop culture personality, philanthropist, and media favorite. He raffled off his 2010 NBA World Championship Ring with the proceeds going to his nonprofit, Xcel University (now known as Artest University). The online ring raffle raised more than $650,000. Funds were donated to nonprofits in 5 cities that provide mental health therapists and mental health services to their communities, and to provide scholarships to underprivileged youth in the New York City area.
World Peace was part of the 13th season of ABC’s Dancing With The Stars, a contestant on CBS’s first edition of Celebrity Big Brother, as well as the CBS competition show, Beyond The Edge. He is active in entrepreneurial endeavors, serves as an advisor to several tech start ups, and seeks to help other basketball players who have aspirations for a pro career with his app and league, XvsX Sports. For more information, please visit https://www.xvsxsports.com/, https://metapandaclub.com/, and https://artestuniversity.org/.
In this podcast episode, we interview Metta World Peace about.. Curt and Katie spent an afternoon chatting with Metta World Peace, exploring his work to reduce mental health stigma. We’re excited to share that conversation with you.
Why did Metta World Peace start speaking about his mental health?
“I've experienced so many things – you know you’re playing basketball [as a kid], and you got to duck under the bench, people shooting. Sometimes you got to go to the game with guns in your bag, you know, different things like that, to make sure everything's cool. And that's just that's just not life. Life is tag. Life is freeze tag. Life is… hopscotch when you're a child… life is learning. That's life. Kids should be outside playing in parks.” – Metta World Peace
- Metta shared his story growing up
- The Crack Epidemic and the impact on his neighborhood
- The challenges of incarceration, lack of education, and access to resources
- Building a shell to protect yourself on the streets
- What you learn and practice in the neighborhood he grew up in
- The role of history and the impact of slavery on mental health of generations of Black people
- The number of friends who are incarcerated
- The role of “chemical imbalance” in the mental health landscape and the family members who have dealt with more serious mental illness
- Metta’s desire to give back to the mental health community
How Metta World Peace is working to solve the problems that lead to poor mental health * The meaning of his name and why he changed it * Coming together with all types of people * Pushing back on separation and division or divisive statements * No guns or drugs allowed in my neighborhood * Challenging what has been defined as “life” in his neighborhood * The lack of connecting resources (like parks) in all neighborhoods * The importance of play and letting kids be kids
The challenges that Metta World Peace faces in putting forward his message
“I'm a colorful, I love comedy. I like to do silly stuff. It's just fun to me, honestly. But then people want to put me on television to do something silly. But when I want to do something meaningful, they don't want to do that programming... that's why I'm so vulnerable, honestly, because I don't know how else I'm going to get it out to the to the world.” – Metta World Peace
- Describing self as emotional and colorful
- Needing to boost his confidence
- Mental health stigma before his first disclosure (thanking his therapist in 2010)
- How people perceive Metta versus how he sees himself interacting in the world
Metta World Peace’s vision for the future * Everyone has access to mental healthcare * Everyone has a chance to have a good life * We try to understand each other and what motivates them, what they are going through * People coming together to improve society * Parenting and partnership training in schools * Putting parks in every neighborhood so kids can play, connect, and be kids
What Metta World Peace is doing now
“Sometimes it's too much [speaking about mental health], you know, sometimes I'm too vulnerable, and it hurt me a lot. Because I'm telling people where I'm from, I tell people how I live.” – Metta World Peace
- After retirement, Metta is focusing on spending time with his children, partner
- Speaking up to address mental health disparities
- Sharing his story to shine a light on the challenges he has faced
- His desire to do something powerful to make a difference
- Partnering with OOTify to support mental health access
- Business endeavors to support philanthropy for mental health
- Supporting other businesses to be successful
- Artest Management Group: Embedding philanthropy into all of the businesses Metta World Peace supports
- XvsX Sports helping athletes to get discovered, compete, and coach
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
https://www.xvsxsports.com/
https://metapandaclub.com/
https://artestuniversity.org/
OOTify
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Therapy as a Political Act: An interview with Dr. Travis Heath
Antiracist Practices in the Room: An interview with Dr. Allen Lipscomb
Being a Therapist on Both Sides of the Couch: An interview with Rwenshaun Miller
Let's Get Political: An interview with Heather Walker Janz
Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understanding, and Social Justice: An interview with James Guay
Therapy of Tomorrow: An interview with Dr. Paul Puri M.D.
What to Know when Providing Therapy for Elite Athletes (CE podcourse)
What Can Therapists Say About Celebrities? The Ethics of Public Statements (CE podcourse)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Infant and Early Childhood Mental Health: An Interview with Dr. Barbara Stroud Curt and Katie interview Dr. Barbara Stroud on infant and early childhood mental health. We explore what therapists need to know about working with very young children, including the latest brain science and the very earliest developmental stages. We talk about the importance of children being safe, seen, heard, and helped. We also look at the importance of culture and how to support under-resourced families.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Dr. Barbara Stroud Barbara Stroud, PhD, is a licensed psychologist with over three decades worth of culturally informed clinical practice in early childhood development and mental health. She is a founding organizer and the inaugural president (2017-2019) of the California Association for Infant Mental Health, a ZERO TO THREE Fellow, and holds prestigious endorsements as an Infant and Family Mental Health Specialist/Reflective Practice Facilitator Mentor. In 2018 Dr. Stroud was honored with the Bruce D. Perry Spirit of the Child Award. Embedded in all of her trainings and consultations are the activities of reflective practice, demonstrating cultural attunement, and holding a social justice lens in the work. Dr. Stroud’s book “How to Measure a Relationship” [published 2012] is improving infant mental health practices around the globe and is now available in Spanish. Her second book, an Amazon best seller, “Intentional Living: finding the inner peace to create successful relationships” walks the reader through a deeper understanding of how their brain influences relationships. Both volumes are currently available on Amazon. Additionally, Dr. Stroud is a contributing author to the text “Infant and early childhood mental health: Core concepts and clinical practice” edited by Kristie Brandt, Bruce Perry, Steve Seligman, & Ed Tronick.
Dr. Stroud received her Ph.D. in Applied Developmental Psychology from Nova Southeastern University, and she has worked largely with children in urban communities with severe emotional disturbance. Dr. Stroud’s professional career path has allowed her to work across service delivery silos supporting professionals in mental health, early intervention (part c), child welfare, early care and education, family court staff, primary care, and other arenas. She is highly regarded and has been a key player in the inception and implementation of cutting-edge service delivery to children Prenatal to five and their families; her innovative approaches have won national awards. More specifically, Dr. Stroud is a former preschool director, a non-public school administrator, director of infant mental health services and agency training coordinator. She has held an adjunct faculty position at California State Long Beach and maintained a faculty position in the Infant-Parent Mental Health Fellowship for 12 years. Currently, Dr. Stroud’s primary focus is professional training and private consultation from an anti-racist lens, with a focus on social justice, in the field of infant mental health. Dr. Stroud remains steadfast in her mission to ‘changing the world – one relationship at a time’.
In this podcast episode, we talk about mental health services for infants and young children Curt and Katie continue to identify gaps in typical therapist training. One such gap is working with children 0-5. We reached out to Dr. Barbara Stroud, expert in infant and early childhood to help us learn what therapists need to know about this age group.
What is infant and early childhood mental health?
“What I often say to parents and providers is, it's our job to be the bigger cortex for the dysregulated midbrain. So, your little kid is not bad, they're not misbehaving, their dysregulated midbrain is doing the best it can. And we have to step in and be the cortex that holds that dysregulation and nurtures them through this process.” – Dr. Barbara Stroud
- Looking at big feelings and social and emotional development
- The current brain science that is impacting infant and early childhood mental health
- How adults impact infant developing brains
What are the basics that therapists should know when working with children under 5 years old? * The importance of dyadic therapy * Parent training * Social emotional developmental stages * The damage of punishment on the development of an authentic self
What infants need to love themselves, have healthy development
“Let me give you something that I give parents and I give childcare providers and I give therapists as a way of thinking about one simple thing you can do and always remember that will support your child's social emotional health: keep them safe, make them feel seen, heard, and helped.” – Dr. Barbara Stroud
- Infants want to be safe, seen, heard, and helped
- Co-regulation and holding the big feeling with the child
- The impacts of this work on adults
- Transgenerational work – we treat the parent in the way that we would like the parent to treat the child
- How to support parents in healing their own wounds
Therapy Interventions for infants and children under five years old * Play therapy is complex and advanced and requires training and supervision * Before children can think symbolically or have words, play is not effective * Attunement and attachment work
The impact of the pandemic on social emotional development * Developmental delays seen in research of kids related to the pandemic * The way children can catch up developmentally * The impact of parents’ stress responses on availability * How the lack of interaction with age-mates impacts development * The responses to stress based on these delays
Cultural impacts on early childhood development * Questions to ask about cultural and family traditions * The stories to explore and the importance of stories and practices * How to explore areas of inequity and disparities * Understanding our power as professionals
Interventions for families with very young children
“We can take everyday tasks and turn them into not just nurturing moments, but therapeutic moments… take nurturing tasks that parents have to do already (it's already something they're going to do) and turn it into a therapeutic moment.” – Dr. Barbara Stroud
- Helping families to identify what they are able to do to make changes
- The importance of predictability for families with a lot of chaos
- How therapists without kids can work with parents
- How parenting is an individual journey
- The importance of loving kids and being emotionally available to kids
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
drbarbarastroud.com
Dr. Barbara Stroud | Changing The World One Relationship at a Time
Using Reflective Practice to Examine Microaggressions
The ABC's of Trauma with Dr. Chandra Ghosh Ippen
https://mcsilver.nyu.edu/ttac-deconstruct-racism/
YouTube: Dr. Barbara Stroud
Facebook: Barbara Stroud Training
LinkedIn: Dr. Barbara Stroud
https://profectum.org/
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Crafting Your Authentic Message: An interview with Mercedes Samudio, LCSW
Navigating Pregnancy as a Therapist: An interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT
Infertility and Pregnancy Loss: An interview with Tracy Gilmour-Nimoy, LMFT, PMH-C
Field-Based Private Practice: An Interview with Megan Costello, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Maslow Missed in his Hierarchy of Needs - The Native Self Actualization Model: An Interview with Dr. Sidney Stone Brown Curt and Katie interview Dr. Sidney Stone Brown on the Native Self-Actualization Model. We look at Abraham Maslow’s work, which was created after spending time with the Blackfoot people as well as how his Hierarchy of Needs supports greed and capitalism. We also talk through indigenous wisdom and how Dr. Brown incorporated their lifestyle and teachings into her work on the Native Self-Actualization Model. She emphasizes the power of altruism, reciprocity, and working together collaboratively.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Dr. Sidney Stone Brown, LPC Sidney Stone Brown was born in Kalispell Montana, and is an enrolled member of the Blackfeet Indian Nation of Browning Montana. She was raised on / near her reservation until 1955, living in her great grandmother’s log house with her parents, great uncle, brother and older sisters. They had no running water or indoor toilets; the house was heated with oil and light by kerosene lanterns until 1950. Dr. Brown’s family relocated to Coos Bay Oregon when their reservation faced termination in 1955. Thereafter Dr. Brown attended west coast schools. She attended 30 different schools between first grade and graduation at Oregon State University in 1974.
Dr. Brown worked her way through college and was employed by her tribe as an employment counselor, where she met a resident psychologist working at the tribal Hospital and became interested in Psychology. Near completion of her master’s program she contracted with 1) the University of Minnesota developing community action teams for the Red Cliff Reservation, 2) a Lakota CAP agency in Rapid City South Dakota acting alcohol program director and 3) the University of Utah (Montana Wyoming) Alcohol Counselor Trainer and 4) became permanent employment as director of NARA 1974. The program was originally funded at $81,000 and in ten years was 1.2 million. NARA (1981) won a national recognition award for program excellence and it was noted at the presentation in New Orleans that the model (Native Self Actualization) she developed was the most innovative cross-cultural model ever submitted to the National Council on Alcoholism since the awards began in 1946.
She has served on many other non-profit boards, appointed a member of the (ADAMHA) Alcohol and Drug Abuse Mental Health Administration Minority Advisory Committee (1974-1976). She lobbied for Indian and minority services at the Oregon State Legislature subcommittees, and before the US Senate. she helped form the board and helped develop the certification criteria for NW Indian Alcohol Drug Counselor Certification Board.
In 1989 she shifted her career emphasis from administration to clinical services receiving 3 years of clinical supervision at a community mental health center and a residential treatment center to obtain licensure (LPC and NCC-MAC). Later she was mentored to be a CQI coordinator when employed at a JCAHO certified facility in Newberg Oregon. The program won re-accreditation with accommodation the second year of my employment. She was admitted to the spiritual/psychology integration program at George Fox University George Fox for fall 2001.
Her clinical work with Native people convinced her she had to understand the impact of religion abuse and abuse by clergy. She is committed and determined to fulfill her goals to mentor the next generation of minority students and contribute to the literature and research that supports good practices for Native Americans.
In this podcast episode, we talk about The Native Self-Actualization Model Most of us learn Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, but did not hear the story about his time with the Blackfoot Tribe. There is more and more evidence that he took Native teachings and transformed it to match our individualistic, capitalistic society. We reached out to Dr. Brown to help us gather some of the history and the true wisdom about what actualization actually looks like.
How has native teaching impacted psychology? * Erickson and Jung studied with different tribes * Maslow studied with the Blackfoot people before creating his Hierarchy of Needs * Maslow did not publish or acknowledge the work of the Blackfoot tribe * Maslow’s work was for corporations
What did Maslow find when studying Native people? * Most people were secure (versus the high percentage of folks in poverty on the East Coast) * He moved from behaviorist to humanist * Learned the way of life with the Blackfoot Tribe
What is the Native Self-Actualization Model?
“Our world is suffering, people are suffering, because as we grow, and as we live in this world, we see the disparities. And it was never meant that just a few could have extreme wealth, at the expense of everyone else. Every person has a place and a purpose. And security is inherent in indigenous communities.” – Dr. Sidney Stone Brown
- Inverted Lodge or Teepee (turning Maslow’s hierarchy of needs upside down)
- The inherent purpose or promise babies come into the world with
- The philosophy of Indigenous People
- The importance of culture and altruism
“When I learned what the Blackfoot people were teaching [Abraham Maslow], I felt the world needed to know that we can look at this differently. Because right now that hierarchy of needs is causing harm. Just a few people being able to be actualized. And I would like to believe that everyone can be actualized.” – Dr. Sidney Stone Brown
What has impacted Native mental health? * Clement Bear Chief’s concept of the holes torn through Native communities * The sexualization and objectification of Native women * The need for protection people, earth, animals * The story of the Blackfoot relationship with the buffalo * The commonality of the indigenous experience * Everything that was taken from Native people creating holes * How to incorporate indigenous practices and teachings to support mental health treatment
Important Takeaways
“I also want to remind people that I'm doing this because Maslow didn't. I'm doing this because it's possible now. I don't think they would have listened to Maslow if he tried to explain what he learned from the Blackfoot people, so it's time and we need to help each other and teach each other.” – Dr. Sidney Stone Brown
- The importance of intergenerational knowledge
- It is essential that indigenous wisdom and way of life survive
- The power of altruism and reciprocity
- We all are human beings and need to take care of each other
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Facebook Page: Transformation Beyond Greed
TranformationBeyondGreed.com
Interviews of Dr. Brown
To get the book now, contact Dr. Sidney Stone Brown: drstonebrown-at-gmail.com
New Publisher for the Book Coming Soon!
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Therapy as a Political Act: An interview with Dr. Travis Heath
The Person of the Therapist: An Interview with Dr. Harry Aponte
Bridging Cultural and Communication Differences in a Bilingual Psychotherapy Practice: An Interview with Dr. Carmen Roman
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Therapists Need to Know about Abortion and Termination for Medical Reasons: An Interview with Jane Armstrong Curt and Katie interview Jane Armstrong, LCSW, a clinical social worker in Texas, about terminating a wanted pregnancy for medical reasons. We look at the impacts of the overturn of Roe v Wade on reproductive care. We also dig into what termination for medical reasons (TFMR) is, how society stigmatizes these parents, and what therapists can do to effectively support clients facing this decision and the outcome of TFMR.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Jane Armstrong, LCSW-S, PMH-C Jane is a termination for medical reasons (TFMR) mom, native Texan, & clinical social worker certified in perinatal mental health. Following the birth & death of her first child, Frankie, through TFMR, Jane opened Both/And Therapy, PLLC to provide individual therapy & support groups to other TFMR parents. These services aim to support clients through the unique barriers & grief of ending a wanted pregnancy, particularly in the state of Texas where such care is no longer accessible. She’s passionate about building community, eliminating shame, & honoring grief for TFMR families.
In this podcast episode, we talk about Termination for Medical Reasons (TFMR) In the wake of Roe v. Wade being overturned, we reached out to Jane Armstrong, LCSW-S, PMH-C who specializes in TFMR and is based out of Texas, a state with some of the biggest barriers to this type of medical, reproductive care.
What are the clinical impacts on individuals who are considering or who have had an abortion? * Trauma related to pregnancy as well as abortion * The differences between ending wanted and unwanted pregnancies * The shame – societal and internalized
What therapists can get wrong when interacting with the topic of abortion * Unexamined bias related to abortion * TFMR – is baby loss and TFMR parents are entitled to grief * Disenfranchised grief and traumatic loss
The impact of anti-abortion legislation on patients considering abortion and TFMR * Lack of access to all types of medical care * Logistics related to getting access to medical care * The emotional impact of continuing to carry a pregnancy when it is known that the baby will die * How late parents can find out about medical concerns that mean that TFMR is indicated * The lack of time to make a decision
What is Termination For Medical Reasons (TFMR)?
“These are things [a health issue with the pregnant person or with the baby leading to TFMR] that may be fatal, it may not be. A lot of them you may not know, but you do know that there is the potential for tremendous suffering.” – Jane Armstrong, LCSW
- Terminating a pregnancy due to health issues with the pregnant person or with the baby
- For the pregnant person: fatal Hyperemesis Gravidarum, requirement for treatment, mental health conditions
- For the baby: 12 week genetic screenings or subsequent testing, scans, etc. can point out chromosomal abnormalities, neural tube deficits
“In my own experience, we did do an amniocentesis, but we knew that we likely wouldn't get the results until after my pregnancy had ended, because it would be typically about two weeks, which would have pushed us over the limit in our state. So, there is a very loudly ticking clock over most of these parents on what should be – and is – the most important decision they've ever made. And it leaves very little room for compassion for the time these parents need to research and get second opinions and really understand what this diagnosis means.” – Jane Armstrong, LCSW
How can therapists work with TFMR clients? * The conflict between the laws and a clinician’s own ethics * Make sure your clients know you will be a support resource to them * The importance of the client being able to tell their story * Recognizing that TFMR is typically not talked about and opening space for these clients * Trauma, grief, loss – sitting with the client with their hard stuff * Helping clients to make this impossible decision * Affirming parenthood and the challenge of the decision * Decision versus “choice” and the ways in which bias can enter the conversation about decision-making
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Jane on Instagram: TFMR Social Worker Both And Therapy
Jane Armstrong, LCSW TFMR Social Worker – Both And Therapy Website
Resources for TFMR
Statement from Planned Parenthood: Attributable to Dr. Meera Shah, Chief Medical Officer of Planned Parenthood Hudson Peconic & National Medical Spokesperson at PPFA
The Supreme Court has taken away our constitutional right to abortion. Any person who believes in and values a person’s inherent right to control their own bodies, their lives, and their futures recognizes this decision for what it is: a disgrace to our society, to our health care system, and most importantly, to patients.
This decision robs our right to control our bodies and personal health care decisions, giving it to lawmakers and leaving millions without access to safe, legal abortion. Overturning Roe means dozens of states could swiftly move to ban abortion — including 13 states with laws that will go into effect immediately or shortly thereafter. That’s half the country where people may no longer have power over their own bodies and their own lives.
We know the harm that will come from this decision because we’ve seen it play out in Texas: People who do not have access to the financial resources and support they need to travel out of state are forced to carry pregnancies against their will, and some will seek abortion outside of the health care system. Where you live should not determine your ability to control your reproductive future.
There’s no one way that a person feels emotionally before, during, or after having an abortion — their feelings are unique to them. But we know that being denied an abortion can cause physical harm. And we also know that being forced to continue an unintended pregnancy can cause financial, mental, and emotional harm. People from Black, Latino, Indigenous, LGBTQ+, and other communities historically targeted by racism, bias, and discrimination will disproportionately feel the effects of abortion bans and restrictions.
This might feel like a scary and confusing time. But while we are devastated, we are not deterred. Abortion is health care, and as the nation’s leading provider of sexual and reproductive health care for all, Planned Parenthood is committed to meeting the health care needs of as many people as possible.
This is a crisis moment for abortion access. Organizers, advocates, providers, and patients need supporters and fellow providers across broad disciplines to channel outrage into action and send a clear message: We won’t back down. Here are some specific ways listeners can take action in the fight to protect our right to control our own bodies:
- Attend a Decision Day Mobilization by visiting bansoff.org and clicking “events”
- Give to Planned Parenthood organizations and abortion funds, and
- Share why you fight for abortion access with #BansOffOurBodies and #WhateverTheReason by visiting bansoff.org and clicking “get involved”, then “share your story”
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Infertility and Pregnancy Loss
Therapy for Intercountry Transracial Adoptees
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Therapy for Executives and Emerging Leaders Curt and Katie chat about how therapists can support leaders. We look at optimal leadership, leadership identity development, barriers for emerging leaders, challenges that executives face, and how therapists can support these leaders. We explore specific interventions and career assessment questions. This is a continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we explore how therapists can help leaders During times of turmoil - like a global pandemic, an unstable economy, and social unrest - we want to be able to rely on our leaders to help us weather the storm. We look to our employers, our legislators, and our community leaders to solve problems and remain calm. But who supports our leaders? It’s important for therapists to understand leadership and the unique challenges that leaders face, so they can help. Further, therapists must be available to provide support to emerging leaders who are coming from much more diverse backgrounds and perspectives who may need help navigating a system that doesn’t always accept them or align with their lived experiences. We talk about leader identity development and how leaders develop over time. We look at common barriers and challenges for leaders at all stages of development as well as suggested interventions to address these needs.
What do therapists get wrong when working with leaders?
“We may be hindering folks that we don't see as leaders based on what we know about them: either their identity and the kind of the societal bias, or based on what we know about how much they're struggling. And so, we won't be able to help these folks move into these positions of leadership and help them elevate themselves in that way.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Therapists don’t include career assessments and leadership assessment
- Understanding the interrelation between work and mental health
- Bias related to stereotypical leaders and not seeing leadership where it shows up outside of able-bodied, tall, white men
- The calm, peaceful, work-life balance versus optimal performance and ambition
- Cosigning on poor work behavior and overwork
What is good leadership? * Leadership can be taught and can be beneficial for every client * Concepts of leadership as a process and a position * Interdependent, collaborative * Servant Leadership * Transformational Leadership
What does leadership identity development look like? * The 6 stages of the model created by Komives, et al. * Moving from identifying leaders, understanding positional leadership, then moving to more of a process and interdependent relationship * How leadership identity development impacts adult clients
What impacts emerging leaders? * Identities, especially marginalized identities * Relationships with authority figures * Resources, privilege within typical leadership development opportunities during childhood and early adulthood * Relational trauma, boundaries, communication * Marginalized identities and stereotypes with no sure-fire way to perform acceptably * Lack of safety and empowerment
Career and Leadership Assessment
“Oftentimes, these stereotypes [related to marginalized identities] can really hit someone, and that can get in the way of them being able to be a good leader. First off, because they're not given the positions. But it's also something where they're navigating these stereotypes and having to twist themselves into pretzels, in order to fit in that little tiny line that is between ‘too much’ and ‘too little’.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Career trajectory
- Leadership identity development stage
- Current employment
- Work/life balance
- Role of work in client’s life and within family system
Therapists Working with Leaders * Life experience that therapists can draw upon * Identifying what you don’t know * Understand your own work trauma and leadership development * The CHAT Model (or Katie’s model: clarify, imagine, simplify, act)
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is completely focused on helping mental health professionals get their websites to show up on Google. They offer trainings and small group intensives to teach you how to optimize your own website. Their next small group intensive is open for enrollment now and starts in August. Take the first step to reaching more ideal clients with their next Small Group SEO Intensive. You don’t have to be tech savvy to learn SEO!
These days, most people go to Google when they’re looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you! Simplified SEO Consulting walks you step by step through the process of optimizing your website with their Small Group SEO Intensives. Led by Danica Wolf, a seasoned SEO instructor with an MSW and strong understanding of the mental health world, you learn what content you need to add to your website and how to optimize it with your ideal client in mind. Then watch your online rankings climb! Next one is enrolling now and begins in August, 2022! Visit simplifiedseoconsulting.com/seo-mastermind to learn more and register.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Katie’s Leadership and Management Books Worth Reading on Pinterest
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Ben-Noam, S. (2018). Cracking the Intrapsychic “Glass Ceiling” for Women in Leadership: Therapeutic Interventions. Psychoanalytic Inquiry, 38(4), 299–311. https://doi.org/10.1080/07351690.2018.1444856
Chang, Ting-Han. ”A Critical Study of How College Student Leaders of Color Conceptualize Social Justice Leadership.” Indiana University ProQuest Dissertations Publishing, 2022. 28964612.
Chen, C. P., & Hong, J. W. L. (2020). The Career Human Agency Theory. Journal of Counseling & Development, 98(2), 193–199. https://doi.org/10.1002/jcad.12313
Cullen, Maureen E., "Understanding Women’s Experience in Undergraduate Leadership Development Through a Transformative and Intersectional Lens" (2022). Graduate Theses and Dissertations. 102. https://pilotscholars.up.edu/etd/102
Komives, S. R., Longerbeam, S. D., Owen, J. E., Mainella, F. C., & Osteen, L. (2006). A Leadership Identity Development Model: Applications from a Grounded Theory. Journal of College Student Development, 47(4), 401–418. https://doi.org/10.1353/csd.2006.0048
Murphy, S. E., & Johnson, S. K. (2011). The benefits of a long-lens approach to leader development: Understanding the seeds of leadership. Leadership Quarterly, 22(3), 459–470. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.leaqua.2011.04.004
Oldridge, K. (2019). A grounded theory study exploring the contribution of coaching to rebalancing organisational power for female leaders. Coaching Psychologist, 15(1), 11–23.
Tang, M., Montgomery, M. L. T., Collins, B., & Jenkins, K. (2021). Integrating Career and Mental Health Counseling: Necessity and Strategies. Journal of Employment Counseling, 58(1), 23–35. https://doi.org/10.1002/joec.12155
Wallace, D. M., Torres, E.M., & Zaccaro, S. J. (2021). Just what do we think we are doing? Learning outcomes of leader and leadership development. The Leadership Quarterly, 32(5). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.leaqua.2020.101494.
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: What to Know When Providing Therapy for Elite Athletes
Millennials as Therapists
Financial Therapy
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
I Just Graduated, Now What? – Career Advice for New Mental Health Clinicians Curt and Katie discuss how clinicians can decide what types of jobs to pursue when they first graduate from their clinical program. We look at whether you should go into a community mental health organization or a private practice. We also dig into what you might want to consider when making these choices and looking for these jobs. Curt and Katie share their own perspective and experiences to help you consider many different options at this stage in your career.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about a new therapist’s career path We received a listener email asking advice for how to approach getting their first job after graduating. We decided to answer that listener and to address the question of how to start your career more broadly.
Should you go into a community mental health organization or private practice?
“I'm of the philosophy that, especially if where you imagine yourself being is in private practice at some point, my recommendation is start doing that as soon as reasonably possible” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Considerations related to longer term goals
- Practical and logistical factors related to compensation, benefits, and time
- Clinical training and opportunities
What to consider when looking to join a group private practice
“When you are looking for a group practice, don’t look for something that’s just a duplication of a community mental health organization… there is a discernment that needs to happen to identify: is this actually preparing you for the private practice that you want to have in five years? Or is it a mill, where you're churning through insurance clients that don't align or… you're working for a fee that you wouldn't be able to sustain?” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Caseload and pay expectations
- Training and supervision opportunities
- What you are willing to do to obtain your own clients
- Whether you will stay at an agency while building a caseload
What are the job options for therapists when they graduate? * The importance of informational interviews to understand the options * The benefits (and detriments) to different types of work settings * Community mental health versus private practice * Moving around and getting different experiences versus starting in a niche * Identifying what is right for you
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is completely focused on helping mental health professionals get their websites to show up on Google. They offer trainings and small group intensives to teach you how to optimize your own website. Their next small group intensive is open for enrollment now and starts in August. Take the first step to reaching more ideal clients with their next Small Group SEO Intensive. You don’t have to be tech savvy to learn SEO!
These days, most people go to Google when they’re looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you! Simplified SEO Consulting walks you step by step through the process of optimizing your website with their Small Group SEO Intensives. Led by Danica Wolf, a seasoned SEO instructor with an MSW and strong understanding of the mental health world, you learn what content you need to add to your website and how to optimize it with your ideal client in mind. Then watch your online rankings climb! Next one is enrolling now and begins in August, 2022! Visit simplifiedseoconsulting.com/seo-mastermind to learn more and register.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Getting a J-O-B as a Therapist
Interview Strategies for Therapists
The Burnout System
Why Therapists Quit
How to Overcome Impostor Syndrome to Leave Your Agency Job: An interview with Patrick Casale
Building Hope for the Next Generation of Therapists: An interview with Robin Andersen
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What Therapists Should Know about the Rollout of 988 Curt and Katie discuss the new suicide hotline, 988, that is set to roll out July 16, 2022. We talk about the legislation for 988 as well as what the primary concerns are for the launch. We explore the resources and infrastructure that is promised (but not ready) as well as ideas that might improve the success of this new initiative.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about what is already going wrong with the 988 roll out. We have been paying attention to the 988 roll out and are concerned by the lack of preparation and funding for its implementation. We talk about why we’re freaked out about the upcoming roll out.
What is 988? * Legislation (from 2020) makes the national suicide hotline easier to access, using the phone number 988 – set to launch on July 16, 2022 * Crisis, Suicide, or Lifeline phone number * Replaces the previous numbers: 800-273-8255 (phone) or text to 741741 * Connecting local resources to local callers * An entry point into the local crisis response system * Opportunities for call, text, or messaging support during times of crisis
What are the primary concerns with the launch of 988?
“Mental health is not a priority according to any of the actions taken in response to [the 988 rollout] … Many states don't have the funding to implement this at all set up.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- Lack of infrastructure (calls are being sent out of state or not being answered at all)
- Lack of local resources to handle crisis response
- Lack of funding to develop these resources (potentially NO funding for staff, text, chat)
- Huge gaps in the crisis response system that will be exposed by increased access to this system
- Challenges with training hotline workers, who are likely going to be volunteers
- Inadequate training for inclusive services and linguistically responsive services.
“We're looking at a good swath of folks who are most likely to be calling these [suicide hotline] numbers and they're going to reach somebody that has no training to work with them.” - Katie Vernoy, LMFT
Ideas to improve 988 and the United States Mental Healthcare program * Funding streams through Medicaid, combining forces with 911 * Using the implementation to identifying gaps * RAND suggestions to coordinate with local organizations for strategic planning and identifying stable funding sources, needs assessments related to personnel * Advocacy at the state level to make sure state legislatures are making this work * Curt’s idea: have hotlines staffed with prelicensed or provisionally licensed folks (earning double hours toward licensure) * Advocacy at the federal level to increase funding across the whole country
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
SAMHSA 988 webpage
RAND Report: How to Transform the US Mental Health System
RAND Working Paper – Preparedness for 988 Throughout the United States: The New Mental Health Emergency Hotline
Find Your Legislators
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
A Living Wage for Prelicensees
Episodes on Suicide
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
The Clinical Supervision Crisis for Early Career Therapists: An Interview with Dr. Amy Parks Curt and Katie interview Dr. Amy Parks about the lack of resources for pre- and provisionally licensed mental health professionals to find a clinical supervisor. We discuss the current state of clinical supervision, the barriers for folks becoming clinical supervisors, what makes a good supervisor, navigating online supervision, and what licensed folks might consider when seeking consultation.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Dr. Amy Parks, Founder of the Clinical Supervision Directory Dr. Amy Fortney Parks brings with her over 30 years of experience working with children, adolescents and families as both an educator and psychologist. She is a passionate “BRAIN -ENTHUSIAST” and strives to help everyone she works with understand the brain science of communication, activation and relationships.
Dr. Parks has a Doctorate in Educational Psychology with a specialty in developmental neuroscience. She is a Child & Adolescent Psychologist as well as the founder and Clinical Director of WISE Mind Solutions LLC and The Wise Family Counseling, Assessment & Education in Virginia. She is also the founder of the Clinical Supervision Directory – a connection super-highway for supervision-seekers working towards licensure in counseling and social work across the US.
Dr. Parks serves as a Clinical Supervisor for Virginia LPC Residents, as well as Dominion Psychiatric Hospital. Additionally, she is an adjunct professor at George Washington University & The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. Dr. Parks is a frequently sought-after parent coach and speaker for families and groups around the world.
In this podcast episode, we talk about clinical supervision for modern therapists We look at the gap in clinical supervision for prelicensed or provisionally licensed mental health professionals.
What is the state of clinical supervision for mental health professionals?
“Arbitrary reasons or barriers to entry are one of the main reasons why we're not getting more clinical counselors on the ground to serve the public. Because when somebody graduates from graduate school… hundreds of thousands of clinicians are graduating, and hundreds of thousands of them will not get connected to supervisors, until they figure out where to find their lists.” – Dr. Amy Parks
- No consistent resources for newly graduated clinicians to find supervisors
- Different state to state or area to area
- Lack of supervisors and a lack of a mechanism to connect supervisors and supervisees
What are the barriers to folks becoming clinical supervisors? * Different standards in different states * Sometimes becoming a supervisor is too overwhelming, complicated, or too much responsibility * The need for advanced training in supervision
What makes a good supervisor?
“Everyone should have supervision as part of their employment. It should be excellent. It should be professional, and it should be a benefit, period, end of discussion. But I can guarantee you 100% that that is not the majority of the country. And that's not the way it's done in every career field either.” – Dr. Amy Parks
- Training
- Diverse experience
- Understanding the boundaries between supervision and counseling
- Supervisor, consultant, teacher roles
- Cultural humility, bias – looking at clients and supervisees
Navigating Online Supervision * Video supervision (rather than phone) * Have supervisees record (video) their sessions for feedback * Research shows that telesupervision is as effective as in person * Laws related to in-person versus virtual supervision
Supervision or Consultation After Licensure * The value of getting consultation after you’re licensed * The importance of a beginner’s mind * The challenges of finding good consultation * Finding the right match when seeking supervision or consultation
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Clinical Supervision Directory
Clinical Supervision Directory Sign up to be a Supervisor coupon code for $50 off the first year: FRIEND50
NBCC accredited supervisor program
Instagram @ClinicalSupervisionDirectory
Facebook @ClinicalSupervisionDirectory
LinkedIn - Clinical Supervision Directory
Amy’s practice: The Wise Family
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Getting the Supervision You Want
Bilingual Supervision: An Interview with Adriana Rodriguez, LMFT
Waiving Goodbye to Telehealth Progress: An Interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
What is Parental Alienation and How Can Therapists Successfully Treat it? Curt and Katie chat about a controversial topic: Parental Alienation. We look at what parental alienation is, the controversies and complexities surrounding this process, how to assess for parental alienation, and how to effectively treat the family system. We talk about how traditional therapy methods are inadequate and potentially harmful in these cases and what to do instead. This is a continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we explore Parental Alienation We both have worked with families that
What is Parental Alienation? * The impact a parent/guardian has over how a child interacts with another parent/guardian * Complex dynamic within a family where conflict is present * Breakdown of relationship based on behavior of alienating parent toward targeted parent * The Four Factor Model from Baker (2020)
How do you assess for Parental Alienation? * Challenges with correctly identifying this process/dynamic * Controversies and lack of recognition of Parental Alienation as a separate diagnosis from Parent-Child Relational Problem * Identifying what Parental Alienation is not * Clues that stories from kids are manufactured versus authentic stories of child abuse * The need for access to the full family system to obtain sufficient information * Exploring: What is alienating behavior? How does it work?
Effective Case Conceptualization and Treatment for Parental Alienation
“Research actually shows [for parental alienation] that only working with one part of the system and in a very isolated way, can sometimes create more harm in the system.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT
- The importance of a family systems approach
- Involvement of government systems
- Uncovering the generational or individual trauma for all members of the system
- How to engage the tools available to advocate for important treatment elements to be in place
- The importance of understanding scope and how to write recommendations to court
- Preventing therapist shopping and treatment avoidance
- Harmful recommendations that can hinder progress within these systems
“Don't be alone with these cases. Don't keep your observations to yourself – I think whether it's with a treatment team or your own consultation or your own therapy - these things can bring so much up in therapists because of their own stories, their own history and the just the intensity of what's happening in these systems.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT
- Treatment teaming and avoiding isolation
- Educating about Parental Alienation
- Supporting the targeted parent to improve the relationship with the child
- Working with alienating parent to prepare for improvement in child’s relationship with targeted parenting
- Co-parenting and conflict resolution
- Therapist communication with all members of the system
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to have the financial confidence and information to make data-driven decisions. We want our client's businesses to be profitable so they can focus on fulfilling their mission.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly packages to fit a growing practice's needs - from bookkeeping to CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Baker, A. J. (2010). Adult children of parental alienation syndrome: Breaking the ties that bind. WW Norton & Company.
Baker, A. (2020). Reliability and validity of the four‐factor model of parental alienation. Journal of family therapy, 42(1), 100-118.
Garber, B. D. (2011). Parental alienation and the dynamics of the enmeshed parent–child dyad: Adultification, parentification, and infantilization. Family Court Review, 49(2), 322-335.
Templer, K., Matthewson, M., Haines, J., & Cox, G. (2017). Recommendations for best practice in response to parental alienation: Findings from a systematic review. Journal of Family Therapy, 39(1), 103-122.
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: What’s New in the DSM-5-TR? An interview with Dr. Michael B First
The Risks and Consequences of Failing to Report Child Abuse
CYA for Court: An interview with Nicol Stolar-Peterson, LCSW
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
The Practicalities of Mental Health and Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth: An Interview with Jordan Held, LCSW Curt and Katie interview Jordan Held, LCSW, about gender affirming care, trans mental health, the practicalities of transition (as well as the different types of transition), specifics when working with trans youth, and the politicization of trans folks. We also explore culture and privilege related to transition.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Jordan Held, LCSW Jordan Held (he/him/his), LCSW is a Primary Therapist and Gender Specialist at Visions Adolescent Treatment Center. Prior to Visions, Jordan was a Therapist and Intake Coordinator at Children’s Hospital Los Angeles in the Center for Trans Youth Health and Development, the largest trans youth health clinic in the USA.
Jordan’s mental health practice centers around creating a trauma-informed and healing-centered space for both adolescents and their families. Jordan’s expertise is working with gender and sexual minority youth with complex histories of PTSD and trauma. Jordan speaks internationally about creating and supporting affirmative LGBTQ+ environments with an emphasis on informed consent and enhanced family communication. As a queer-identified, transgender man, Jordan brings an important dual perspective to his work as a mental health provider.
Prior to social work, Jordan worked extensively in secondary school education, with a decade of experience teaching, coaching, and developing health and wellness curricula. Jordan’s work focuses on gender violence prevention, diversity, equity, inclusion, and cultivating strength and belonging for teens. Jordan is on the Board of Directors of the Los Angeles LGBT Center, the Laurel Foundation, JQ International, and Mental Health America of Los Angeles. Jordan is also a long-time facilitator at Transforming Family, a support group for gender-diverse youth and their family.
Jordan holds a Master of Social Welfare degree from UCLA, a Master of Sports Leadership degree from Northeastern University, and a Bachelor of Science in Kinesiology from the University of Connecticut. Jordan is an avid sneakerhead who self-cares by lifting heavy weights, going to the beach, loving his rescue dog, and embracing his gender euphoria!
In this podcast episode, we talk about trans mental health For Pride Month, we wanted to deepen our conversation on trans mental health and what therapists should know when working with trans individuals.
What is gender-affirmative care?
“Trans people are being used as political pawns.” – Jordan Held, LCSW
- The way that “gender affirming care” is being taken out of context
- What is actually happening, how it has been politicized
- The misinformation related to what is available to children who are exploring their gender (i.e., parental consent and youth care)
- The role of therapists versus the role of medical providers
- Discussion of gender norms
Different types of transition for trans individuals * Social transition (name, pronouns, clothes, haircut) * Medical interventions that may start during puberty (i.e., puberty blockers, progesterone only birth control) * Cross sex hormones and surgeries (which actually require a long process) * States are very specific for what they require for gender care (as do insurance companies)
Conversations in therapy for trans youth * Gender journey * Meeting the kids where they’re at * Lying to get what they need * Letters and recommendations for surgery * The gender dysphoria diagnosis and sorting that out from depression, anxiety, etc. * Supporting trans youth with social transition and getting the support they need * The concerns with maladaptive coping skills available online * Positive resources for trans youth (scroll down to resources) * Identity and impacts
The Politicization of Trans Individuals
“Shame on us as adults that we are so scared, we have so much fear over – let’s be honest – what’s in someone's pants, right? All of this has to do with the fear of something that we don't know. This fear… that somebody's genitals do not align what we think is in their pants. And as an adult talking to another adult, that's kind of gross, right? Like, why as adults do we care so much about what is in a kid's pants?” – Jordan Held, LCSW
- Jordan grew in privilege when he transitioned
- Legislation
- Schools removing conversations related to gender and sexuality
- Play and sports being withheld from trans kids
- Bias and how being trans is perceived
- The actual numbers of trans folks who want to play sports or want to use the bathroom that aligns with their gender identity
- Advice for trans kids and families where gender care is illegal, advice for therapists
- Age limits and laws that don’t align with logic
Culture, privilege, and being trans * Increasing or decreasing privilege when one transitions * Getting used to the changed dynamic within society based on external experience * The complexity of the experience and the changing of the experience * The concept of “passing” and how it taps into bias
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to have the financial confidence and information to make data-driven decisions. We want our client's businesses to be profitable so they can focus on fulfilling their mission.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly packages to fit a growing practice's needs - from bookkeeping to CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Visions Adolescent Treatment Center
Jordan Held’s Website
Jordan on Instagram
WPATH Standards of Care
Online support and communities for trans youth: GLSEN
The Trevor Project (helpline, suicidality)
Human Rights Campaign (HRC) – Trans Resources
HRC – LGBTQ+ Youth
PFLAG
Flamingo Rampant (publisher focusing on diversity, including gender diversity)
Disclosure (Documentary)
Google local universities in state – they often have support groups
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Working with Trans Clients: Trans Resilience and Gender Euphoria – an interview with Beck Gee-Cohen
Vulnerability, The News, and Your Clients: An interview with Dr. Abigail Weissman
Additional episodes for Pride Month:
Bi+ Erasure: An interview with Dr. Mimi Hoang, PhD
Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understanding, and Social Justice: An interview with James Guay, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Portrayals of Mental Health and Therapy in the Media: An Interview with Danah Davis Williams, LMFT Curt and Katie interview Danah Davis Williams, LMFT on the portrayals of mental health and therapy in the media. We explore responsible portrayals as well as the harmful practices that some writers and studios engage in. We also talk about the opportunities for modern therapists to have an impact on how diagnoses and mental health treatment are represented on film and television.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
An Interview with Danah Davis Williams, LMFT Danah Davis Williams is a Licensed Psychotherapist, an Actor, a Psychological Creative Consultant, a Podcast Host and current Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT).
As a therapist, Danah is in private practice in Santa Barbara, California (California Coastal Counseling) where she specializes in helping people break destructive patterns of coping through the use of practical, evidenced-based coping skills and personal process. She is extensively trained in Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT).
As a consultant, Danah provides personalized psychological consultation for filmmakers, executives and creatives committed to socially responsible, captivating storytelling through authentic characterization of mental health, its treatment and interpersonal impact. She runs a psychological consulting business helping entertainment industry leaders ensure accurate representation of mental health: working with filmmakers, writers, execs, and high-profile actors from networks like FX, CBS, ABC, NBC, Freeform and MGM.
Danah is also the host, producer and co-creator of the Reel Psychology Podcast on Fireside, where she and Jon Lee Brody are raising mental health awareness by talking about fictional characters and their mental health.
In this podcast episode, we talk about how the media often portrays mental health We invited our friend Danah Davis Williams to join us to talk about mental health in the media.
What does the media get wrong when portraying mental health and therapy? * Inaccurate portrayals of diagnoses * Manipulative or unethical therapists * The problems with “guilty pleasures” that include inaccurate or harmful portrayals
“I really feel that one of the ways that we can see more authentic representation is to have more diversity and more people with mental health background in storytelling, in the writers’ rooms, or becoming creators themselves – because people write what they know.” – Danah Davis Williams, LMFT
The opportunities for therapists to be creators and consultants * Translating clinical work into consulting and creating * Vulnerability when sharing journey as a therapist * Using skills from practice building to create opportunities as a creator * The process of consultation for scripts and what to consider when providing feedback * Ethical thoughts related to representations * How to build a network and consulting business
How the storytellers look at mental health and healing
“What I've had multiple times is a filmmaker or studio coming to me, and they're looking for the silver bullet. They have a character that has had some trauma or struggling with a specific diagnosis or relational conflict or what have you. And they want to know, what's the silver bullet, one- or two-page scene that we can include? (And sometimes not even that.) What's the five second dialogue that we can include that shows that they have worked on their mental health, they have recovered, and they are thriving? And it's like, it doesn't work that way.” – Danah Davis Williams, LMFT
- The silver bullet that “heals” the client
- Inaccurate portrayals of therapy or healing and the impact on clients
- Ethics to consider (especially given you’re not acting within your profession with an ethical code)
- The challenges of unscripted shows
Shows that get it right when it comes to mental health and treatment * This is us – Toby * Comprehensive and realistic, tapping into lived experience within actors and/or writers * The attempts to portray diversity and the experience of marginalized communities and their interaction in the mental health system
Diversifying Media and the Portrayals of Mental Health and Therapy * Ava Duvernay’s Array program * Michael B Jordan hiring students and mentoring the next generation * Decreasing stigma for folks who have not typically sought mental health services
How to advocate for accurate mental health portrayals in the media * Calling things out on social media that are good and things that are done poorly (or are harmful) * Content creation about shows you watch (like blogs, articles, etc.) * Discussing content in sessions to help process what folks are viewing or their own experience * Not watching or purchasing tickets to content that is harmful (not reinforcing “guilty pleasures”)
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to have the financial confidence and information to make data-driven decisions. We want our client's businesses to be profitable so they can focus on fulfilling their mission.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly packages to fit a growing practice's needs - from bookkeeping to CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Danah Davis Williams on Fireside Chat (Reel Psychology Podcast)
Danah on Instagram: @danahdaviswilliams
Danah’s website: calcoastalcounseling.com
Ava Duvernay’s Array Program
Michael B. Jordan Outlier Society Youth Fellowship
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Therapy with an Audience: An interview with Doug Friedman, LCSW
What Can Therapists Say About Celebrities? The ethics of public statements
Grow Your Impact as a Therapist: An interview with Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT
Reflections on Content Creation and the Therapy Profession
You Do Not Have to be a Thought Leader
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Beware of Scams Targeting Therapists Curt and Katie discuss common scams that specifically target therapists. We look at how to identify scams or sketchy business practices that can be very confusing as well as dangerous to clinicians. We also talk about how to protect yourself as well as solid business practices that you can implement to stave off some of these scammers.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about scams that target therapists We have heard about a lot of scams in our careers. We figured it was time to do another “survival guide” episode on how to protect ourselves as therapists.
What are the most common scams targeting therapists?
“And most of the scams seem to be trying to tell someone that they are in trouble - And if you just pay me this trouble will go away.” – Katie Vernoy
- Information used from popular therapist directories
- Claiming to be a law enforcement professional, missed court date, or the IRS
- Image copyright infringement
- Businesses that target you to charge them for things that are free or with another company
- Clients or people seeking therapy for family members and then overpay and ask for a refund
- Text messages or emails with unsolicited links that can leave malware on your computer
- Phishing schemes
- Testing stolen credit cards or stolen identities
How can modern therapists protect ourselves from these scams?
“Be skeptical of these things, hang up, call legitimate numbers from the offices of these departments. And if nothing else, let those departments know, let your professional organizations know – these are the kinds of messages that I'm receiving. Those organizations will usually have some kind of response that they blast out to their members with their licensees, hey, there's a scam going around, be aware of it.” – Curt Widhalm
- Get into wise mind (avoid responding to false urgency)
- Go through official channels (contact actual officials)
- Contact an attorney if unsure
- Understand how legal notices are properly delivered
- Caution with financial systems and not allowing people to pay upfront
- Requiring person seeking services to contact therapist
- Cyber security trainings
- Communicating appropriately and consistently
- Holding to systems and boundaries
- Make sure to share these scams with professional organizations, the official entity, or your licensing board
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to have the financial confidence and information to make data-driven decisions. We want our client's businesses to be profitable so they can focus on fulfilling their mission.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly packages to fit a growing practice's needs - from bookkeeping to CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Thrizer
Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Abundance Practice Building Article on Copyright Infringement
From Joe Borders: Currently Active Scams Targeting Therapists
From APA: Protect your practice from scams targeting psychologists
From APA: More reports surface of telephone scammers targeting psychologists
From the SF Chronicle: ‘He held me hostage with no gun but with his words’: The phone scam gaslighting therapists
From Counseling Today: Technology Tutor: Scams aimed at counselors
From Psych Today: The Phone Scam That Targets Psychologists
From CPH & Associates: Scam Targeting Therapists: What You Need to Know
From 10News.Com: The jury duty scam you should know about
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Who’s in the Room? Siri, Alexa, and Confidentiality
Malpractice is No Joke
Gaslighting Therapists
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Beyond Reimagination: Improving your client outcomes by understanding what big tech is doing right (and wrong) with mental health apps Curt and Katie chat about the big tech “disruptors” in the mental health space and what therapists can learn from their tactics to support clients. We look at who is using mental health apps, what mental health apps are getting right (and wrong), and how therapists can take what is working and work differently to more effectively serve our own clients. This is a continuing education podcourse.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we look at what therapists can learn from big tech disruptors in mental health We have seen more and more tech companies and apps come into the mental health space and have heard more and more folks worried about how their private practices will be able to survive. We are revisiting a topic we covered in a presentation at our Therapy Reimagined 2021 conference to help modern therapists navigate this new mental health landscape.
Looking at the gaps in mental health treatment and how big tech is working to “fix” them * Exploring the goals from the Rand report on fixing mental healthcare in the United States * Mental Health apps (with many broad definitions) * Access to lots of different types of services and self-help * A one stop shop with a full range of services * Direct negotiation with insurance companies
The types of technology used in mental health apps and the risks and benefits of these advances * Algorithms * Geo location data * Complex payment structures * Outcomes and feedback
What mental health apps are doing well for clients * Getting clients into therapy much more quickly * Decreasing costs for consumers * Increasing flexibility and availability * Not requiring for things to happen in real time (asynchronous therapy)
What mental health apps are getting wrong * McDonaldization and commoditization * Proprietary treatment methods and incentives for specific worksheets or staying within the app * Misalignment between the goals of the client and the goals of the corporation * Self-driven, leading to folks to potentially getting insufficient resources * Individual versus community focus * Caseloads and potential for therapist income (as well as burnout and poor care)
Concerns about the additional risks that can happen with mental health apps
“[In] this profit versus service model… there's this idea that you are not a client, not a patient, you are a consumer and someone to market to. And so you'll be marketed to as a client throughout the app. And as a clinician, you become a marketer for those things behind the paywall. And that is terrifying. Because it's not based on treatment.” – Katie Vernoy
- The apps are not bound by HIPAA, but instead the SEC
- Data sharing and Alexa suggesting supplements to address client mental health concerns
- Additional legal and ethical risks
Who is using app-based mental health services? * Therapy veterans are moving to apps * Access is not actually improved * The reasons that clients are moving from a traditional therapist to therapy apps * Outcomes across different types of apps and different types of clients * Niche apps are more effective than generalist apps
What we can do to move our therapist practices forward?
“Now I've seen a number of people describe… if these therapy apps are going to be the McDonald's of therapy, well, we're the prime rib! You actually have to consider are you providing actual prime rib? Or are you more like a Carl's Jr?” – Curt Widhalm
- Using the benefits of technology to decrease friction for your clients accessing therapists
- Increasing flexibility and creativity
- Be a better therapist and understanding the digital therapeutic alliance
- Paying attention to laws and ethics, scope of practice, and treatment planning
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Turning Point Financial Life Planning Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
Turning Point is a financial planning & coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money.
Dave at Turning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
He'll help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed...
And arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
And for listeners of MTSG, you'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter promo code Modern Therapist.
Be sure and visit turningpointHQ.com and download the free whitepaper “7 Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety”
OOTify OOTify. "OOT" or "uth" (उठ) means "lift up" in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence-based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community, Connection, and Collaboration are critical to OOTIFY. As they lift the mental healthcare system, they ensure providers are part of the process. OOTIFY is a platform for providers, built by providers, and owned by providers. OOTIFY is the process of lifting up mental healthcare, while lifting each other up.
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're going to go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health, proactively, our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together. People are more open to talk about these stories and say, “Hey, listen, I'm going through this too.” Do be you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the OOTify community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
TR 2021: Beyond Reimagination - Moving the mental health field from thought to action (video course)
Thrizer (payment and billing platform)
Economides, M., Ranta, K., Hilgert, O., Kelleher, D., Arean, P., & Hoffman, V. (2019, November 1). The impact of a remote digital health intervention for anxiety and depression on occupational and functional impairment: an observational, pre-post intervention study. https://doi.org/10.31234/osf.io/rhfpa
McBain, R. K., Eberhart, N.K., Breslau, J., Frank, L., Burnam, M.A., Kareddy, V, and Simmons, M. M. (2021). How to Transform the U.S. Mental Health System: Evidence-Based Recommendations. Santa Monica, CA: RAND Corporation, 2021. https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RRA889-1.html.
*The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Special Series: Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Fixing Mental Health in America: An interview with Dr. Nicole Eberhart, Senior Behavioral Scientist, and Dr. Ryan McBain, Policy Researcher, The RAND Corporation
Online Therapy Apps
Why You Shouldn’t Sell Out to Better Help
Non-Traditional Therapy Series: Part 1 and Part 2
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
The Risks and Consequences of Failing to Report Child Abuse Curt and Katie discuss the CA Board of Behavioral Sciences case against Barbara Dixon, LMFT who failed to report child abuse for Gabriel Fernandez and Anthony Avalos who both subsequently died from abuse by caregivers. We look at what this therapist missed as well as appropriate child abuse reporting, including the nuance of when to report. CW: details of child abuse discussed.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about the importance of child abuse reporting We talk about the failure to report abuse by Barbara Dixon, LMFT that has recently been in the news related to the deaths of Gabriel Fernandez and Anthony Avalos.
The case related to the child abuse death of Gabriel Fernandez * Content Warning: Details of the case, including the actions taken (and not taken) by Barbara Dixon, LMFT * The decision-making process with child abuse reporting
Who is responsible to decide to report child abuse – the clinician or the supervisor?
“I hear [prelicensees] wrongly state that ‘I'm working under somebody else's license; this falls on them’ … I cannot emphasize enough that decisions like this, in [Barbara Dixon’s] case, really do indicate that it is your responsibility, no matter what your agency says… People can and do get punished for not following through on their individual licensee or registration responsibilities as mandated reporters.” – Curt Widhalm
- When supervisors or agencies tell clinicians under supervision not to report child abuse report
- The individual responsibility that each clinician holds
- The myth that you’re working “under” your supervisor’s license
How do you decide whether you should report child abuse?
“It's these gray areas where there's this nuance that I think feels really overwhelming. And for some folks, they'll lean towards reporting or consulting to identify if it's reportable. And for other folks, they use that as cover to not report when it feels too uncomfortable.” – Katie Vernoy
- Clarity from child abuse reporting laws
- Hesitation based on systemic response, the therapeutic relationship, and the paperwork hassle
- Where there are gray areas and nuance
The consequences of failing to report child abuse or adequately document services or risks * Your agency or supervisor may not be held liable for your actions (especially if you don’t document what you did) * Incomplete documentation hurts – it doesn’t help you hide from liability
Appropriate Child Abuse Assessment and Reporting * Interviewing the child separately * Following up on what you’ve asked for * Understanding at what point it becomes our responsibility (i.e., having sufficient information) * Documenting each stage and make sure to appropriately close out treatment file when needed * Consultation and not making the decision on your own * Defining the injury and assess from there * Understanding normal childhood response to typical life events (and noting changes)
Navigating the gray areas in child abuse assessment * Looking at impact, intent, and injury * Using the context to help decide when there isn’t a definitive line * Adequately documenting, even when you aren’t sure you’re making the right decision, is important and necessary * Looking at what needs systemic intervention and what needs family therapy
Getting past the discomfort to report child abuse report * It is your responsibility * Taking a moment to understand the purpose of reporting * Reducing your own liability * Obtaining resources for families * Understanding the risk for families of systems getting involved
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: OOTify OOTify. "OOT" or "uth" (उठ) means "lift up" in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence-based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community, Connection, and Collaboration are critical to OOTIFY. As they lift the mental healthcare system, they ensure providers are part of the process. OOTIFY is a platform for providers, built by providers, and owned by providers. OOTIFY is the process of lifting up mental healthcare, while lifting each other up.
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're going to go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health, proactively, our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together. People are more open to talk about these stories and say, “Hey, listen, I'm going through this too.” Do be you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the OOTify community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Turning Point Financial Life Planning Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
Turning Point is a financial planning & coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money.
Dave at Turning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
He'll help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed...
And arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
And for listeners of MTSG, you'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter promo code Modern Therapist.
Be sure and visit turningpointHQ.com and download the free whitepaper “7 Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety”
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Los Angeles Times Article: Counselor who didn’t report abuse of Gabriel Fernandez, Anthony Avalos put on 4-year probation
Citation/Enforcement Decision on Barbara Dixon
LA Times Article: Charges dismissed against social workers linked to Gabriel Fernandez’s killing
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Now Modern Therapists Have to Document Every F*cking Thing in Our Progress Notes?
Do Therapists Curse in Session?
Toxic Work Environments
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Make Your Paperwork Meaningful: An interview with Dr. Maelisa McCaffrey Hall
Noteworthy Documentation: An interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT
CYA for Court: An interview with Nicol Stolar-Peterson, LCSW
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Should Therapists Correct Clients? Curt and Katie chat about whether therapists should correct clients who use offensive language. We look at what we should consider when addressing what clients say (including treatment goals and the relationship), how therapists can take care of themselves to be able to treat clients who hold a different worldview, and how (and when) therapists can address problematic language appropriately.
Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com!
In this podcast episode we talk about whether therapists should call out their clients on words they find inappropriate We decided to address the language that clients use in session and what to do when we find the language offensive or harmful.
Should therapists correct clients when they use language we find offensive or harmful? * Blank slate or “join your clients” approaches * Whether the language should be addressed when it doesn’t align with a client’s stated treatment goals * Showing up as a human and addressing the therapeutic relationship * Judgment or shaming that can happen with clients
What should therapists consider when addressing what clients say? * The relationship between the therapist and client * Relevance to clinical goals * The impact on trust in the therapeutic alliance * The importance of using the client’s language to affirm their experience * The power differential between therapist and client
How can therapists show up with clients who see the world differently than they do? * Addressing objectification of therapist’s identities * Assessing when therapists are centering their own experience versus responding to what is in the room * Using the relationship to process client’s perspective
“I feel like just living in the client's world without honoring my own experience at all doesn't feel quite right. But centering my experience feels wrong.” – Katie Vernoy
What can therapists do to appropriately address problematic language with their clients? * Process what is being said before correcting specific words * Address within the relationship and within the treatment goals * Using our own coping skills to be able to navigate what our clients bring to session
“I'm very worried that therapists don't have enough of their own coping skills to deal with these things coming up in sessions. Where they feel that they have to shut these clients down for the protection of themselves. You know, their only coping mechanism seems to be – I need to escape working with clients that don't already agree with my worldview.” – Curt Widhalm
- Where social justice plays a role (and maybe shouldn’t)
- Education and supporting the client’s whole development
- Assessing the impact of these interventions (both positive and negative)
- Assessing the harm in not pointing out bias or harmful language
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Turning Point Financial Life Planning Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
Turning Point is a financial planning & coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money.
Dave at Turning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
He'll help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed...
And arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
And for listeners of MTSG, you'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter promo code Modern Therapist.
Be sure and visit turningpointHQ.com and download the free whitepaper “7 Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety”
OOTify OOTify. "OOT" or "uth" (उठ) means "lift up" in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence-based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community, Connection, and Collaboration are critical to OOTIFY. As they lift the mental healthcare system, they ensure providers are part of the process. OOTIFY is a platform for providers, built by providers, and owned by providers. OOTIFY is the process of lifting up mental healthcare, while lifting each other up.
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're going to go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health, proactively, our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together. People are more open to talk about these stories and say, “Hey, listen, I'm going through this too.” Do be you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the OOTify community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Therapist–Client Language Matching: Initial Promise as a Measure of Therapist–Client Relationship Quality
Feedback Informed Treatment
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Do Therapists Curse in Session?
How to Fire Your Clients (Ethically)
How to Fire Your Clients (Ethically) part 1.5
When is it Discrimination?
Conspiracy Theories in Your Office
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Is the Counseling Compact Good for Therapists? Curt and Katie chat about the brand-new Counseling Compact and what therapists may not know or understand about these interstate agreements. We explore the proposed benefits as well as the potential risks and complications like regulatory discrepancies and a lack of consumer protections. We also look at how big tech can benefit while individual clinicians may be left unable to compete in a larger market.
In this podcast episode we talk about the new Counseling Compact and Psypact The counselors got their 10th state and officially have Counseling Compact to practice in other states. We thought it would be a good idea to talk about what that means (and what we might want to pay attention to).
What is the Counseling Compact? * Opportunities for practicing privileges (not licensure) in other states * The complexity of putting together these interstate compacts * Implementation and regulation hurdles * Scope of practice discrepancies and concerns * Law and Ethics practices across states
Benefits of Interstate Compacts for Mental Health Providers * Continuity of care * Ease of meeting with clients who are moving around the country * Bringing clinicians to areas where there is a workforce shortage
Potential Problems with the Counseling Compact
“This very much goes against, according to the FBI, any sort of patient protection – that any of these licensing boards are put into place in the first place: to protect consumers.” – Curt Widhalm
- Not bringing more clinicians, if only states with workforce shortages join
- Doesn’t solve the infrastructure problems (i.e., stable Wi-Fi) for rural areas that typically don’t have local therapists
- The people who most benefit: the big tech companies like Better Help
- The FBI is opposing this legislation due to lack of federal background checks
- Lack of consumer protection or consistency in what consumers can expect from their therapist
- Costs for the therapists to get practicing privileges
- Large gigantic group practices and tech solutions will contract with insurance and leave smaller practices unable to compete and required to be private pay
Solving the Problems with the Counseling Compact
“It may actually delay [a national license], because it's a band aid where people can go practice in other states. So why would I get a national license, if I can practice in a couple other states and not worry about taking another test, getting another background check…?” – Katie Vernoy
- Overarching regulation and expectations at a national level
- Federal bodies to oversee background checks and consumer protections
- Expensive, time-intensive
- We don’t have universal healthcare, so insurance parity will need to be addressed (and not just by big tech)
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: OOTify OOTify. "OOT" or "uth" (उठ) means "lift up" in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence-based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community, Connection, and Collaboration are critical to OOTIFY. As they lift the mental healthcare system, they ensure providers are part of the process. OOTIFY is a platform for providers, built by providers, and owned by providers. OOTIFY is the process of lifting up mental healthcare, while lifting each other up.
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're going to go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health, proactively, our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together. People are more open to talk about these stories and say, “Hey, listen, I'm going through this too.” Do be you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the OOTify community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Turning Point Financial Life Planning Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
Turning Point is a financial planning & coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money.
Dave at Turning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
He'll help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed...
And arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
And for listeners of MTSG, you'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter promo code Modern Therapist.
Be sure and visit turningpointHQ.com and download the free whitepaper “7 Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety”
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Counseling Compact
Psypact
Very Bad Therapy Podcast
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Special Series: Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Fixing Mental Health in America: An interview with Dr. Nicole Eberhart, Senior Behavioral Scientist, and Dr. Ryan McBain, Policy Researcher, The RAND Corporation
Online Therapy Apps
Why You Shouldn’t Sell Out to Better Help
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is brought to you by OOTify.
Katie Vernoy 00:03
OOTify is an immersive digital mental health ecosystem. It's designed to help minimize the fragmentation, trial and error and overwhelm felt by both patients and providers in the process of giving and receiving care. OOTify is the process of lifting up mental health care while lifting each other up.
Curt Widhalm 00:20
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Katie Vernoy 00:23
This episode is also brought to you by Turning Point.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing taxes and student loans.
Katie Vernoy 00:39
Visit turningpointhq.com. To learn more and enter the promo code 'moderntherapist' for $200 off any service.
Announcer 00:47
You're listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:03
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about things going on in the therapy worlds. And recently, the 10th state has joined the counseling compact, which initiates that it is all coming together for licensed professional counselors here in America. And what this does is creates a whole lot of space for people to make up what they think that it is. And we are here to correct that information. So, Katie, lots of things to talk about in this episode, what are your initial reactions.
Katie Vernoy 01:49
So my initial reactions typically with all of these pacts, so there's Counseling Pact, there's PSYPACT or Counseling Compact and PSYPACT, which is a psychologist, and then the social workers are working on something. As for MFTs so far, we don't have something going on. But I have mixed feelings. Because I think for me, I have clients who travel around to different states. And so I can only see them when they're in states I'm licensed in, I've got ideas around being able to support folks in areas that have fewer clinicians or clinicians who specialize in and what they need. And I also recognize I live in a state that has a very high cost of living. And so if there are therapists in states with much lower cost of living who are quote, unquote, taking my clients, I think it would be something where that that may make it harder for me to compete in my own market. So lots of mixed feelings. And I'm not quite sure at least until we started prepping for this episode, I wasn't quite sure what these compacts meant. And so I think probably we should start with, What's the Counseling Compact? If we, you know, it's PSYPACT different? What's the social workers working on? But broadly, what are these things? And why do people care about them?
Curt Widhalm 03:05
So these pacts are going to be slightly different between the counselors and the psychologists and psychologists is PSYPACT. The Counseling Compact is for counselors, we're not really going to talk a whole lot about social workers and MFTs, because they have not gotten their act together and have anything moving in this direction yet. Social workers do. But in talking about the two that are already in place, or quickly moving into place, what it does is allows for somebody, this is language from the Counseling Compact, what it does is allows for somebody who is licensed in and resides in one of the member states to have practicing privileges through some regulation stuff in other states. So it's not just like a license reciprocity where you are granted now a 10 state license, you have to go through some certain steps of just picking a couple of states out of this here. But if you are, say, practicing in Nebraska, and you have a person in West Virginia, who wants to utilize your services, you would need to go to the West Virginia Board and have a streamlined ability to get a privilege to practice with clients in West Virginia.
Katie Vernoy 04:30
Okay, but you have to live in Nebraska, it can't be like I live in California, and I'm licensed in Nebraska. So now then I can practice with somebody in West Virginia, if I get that streamlined.
Curt Widhalm 04:42
Yes, and this is the language that you have to be licensed in and reside in one of those states. So many people have licensure in multiple states already. If you are not one of the 10 states as a resident this does not apply to you. So this is not like a, you know, huge like opening up the gates to everybody living all over the place. California being where Katie and I reside, we can't just go and get licensed in Utah and now have the ability to practice in all of these other states. A residency requirement is part of this as well.
Katie Vernoy 05:20
Well, one thing, I think that it does start things moving, because I know with PSYPACT, there are 34 states in process. So it is the beginning of something, it's just a matter of right now, this is the very beginning stages and other states may join. But in some of the conversations and research we've done, it sounds like there's a lot that goes into it once a state joins. And even in putting together the overarching compact, there is this need to get kind of almost universal expectations, kind of an overarching, regulatory body, there's also needs to, you know, look at scope of practice issues, which at least as we're aware of MFT stuff, but there's very different scope of practice for California MFTs than there is for Texas, or West Virginia MFTs, for example. And so there's a lot of complexity that's going to be sorted out as this starts to get implemented. But the idea is that these compacts these interstate compacts are meant to provide a launchpad for more states to join, right?
Curt Widhalm 06:29
And this is some of the stuff that's got to be ironed out over the next couple of years. And frankly, I'd be surprised if all 10 of these states are able to address some of these discrepancies over the next few years. And for example, and I know not all of these states are currently part of the 10. But they do sometimes have some legislation to get them involved in the Counseling Compact here. But looking at the different requirements in different states, Georgia as an example, one of the 10 States does have a pretty high barrier to entry when it comes to becoming licensed within the state. And so I'm going to emphasize again, this is practicing privileges in other states, that is not a full reciprocity of license. So if somebody is practicing, gets practicing privileges in Georgia as a member of this Counseling Compact, one of the things that needs to be addressed is the discrepancy between what is allowed from one state to the next, for example, some states allow counselors to provide diagnostics of clients, other states do not and what has yet to be ironed out on this is how much does this change the scope of practice in these other states? What's unclear at this point is how these things are going to be regulated. While there is a central body that will oversee this compact, because of the way that it's set up each of these states are the ones who are still overseeing their own licensees, disciplinary actions and abilities to practice. So it's not like you're gonna be able to sit at home and do telehealth across all of these 10 states, and be able to practice just in the way that you are at home with your home state's clients, you're also going to run into well, I can diagnose this client but not this one. Or I need to be aware of, you know, my ability to do things ethically, one way in one state, but because of the ways that the laws are written in another state, I'm not allowed to do this. So these are some of the things that now have to be centrally addressed across all of these states here.
Katie Vernoy 08:48
And I think it's something that can get very confusing, but I want to re emphasize that there is this element of expectation that this means I'm in licensed and these other states and and because it's practicing privileges, is it telehealth only? If I go visit the state, could I still see those clients in person? Like what is the what is the practical difference between practicing privileges and licensure? In this regard.
Curt Widhalm 09:12
The differences is, it's not a license in another state. It's the allowance of you to be able to provide services to people in that state. But it is not the equivalent of having a license in both states.
Katie Vernoy 09:30
But what is the practical difference there? Like why do I care if I'm licensed or have practicing privileges?
Curt Widhalm 09:37
One of the major differences is that it's a lot easier to revoke practicing privileges than it is to revoke somebody's license. Having a license in both states means that you are obligated to both states licensing boards. What practicing privileges means is that you're allowed to practice here but you're still responsible to your own state's governing body for disciplinary actions, and so on and so forth. So it could be very easy. If a therapist is working with a client who's out of state and residing in Georgia, for example, Georgia could very easily be like, you're not meeting the requirements of practice in our state where you're doing out things, things outside the scope of practice in our state. And we don't like that, and you're no longer allowed to practice here. So it's a lot easier than going through a lot of the big disciplinary actions that may require revoking somebody's license in a state that they're actually licensed in.
Katie Vernoy 10:40
So for the clinician, it means that they would really need to be able to identify all the different scope of practice, how to really stay up to date in all these different states, as well as what is that kind of fine line that I can walk, either to treat all my clients the same, but super restricted, or, you know, like having different rubrics for how I treat each client. So it can get pretty complicated is what you're saying, for the clinician to pay attention to what's required of them.
Curt Widhalm 11:11
Yeah, and I think to this is where the goal is over the next couple of years to change some of this information. So that way, we're able to make it a lot simpler for people because the goal in this is with the intention of making practice easier, allowing for more people to have access to more mental health providers. However, these obstacles exist, and giving kind of the next couple of years of the ability for state legislatures to change the subsequent laws that now need to go into effect because this is in place, the goal probably is to simplify this stuff.
Katie Vernoy 11:50
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 11:51
And I haven't heard or seen anything where any of these member states have, you know, any real opposition in this way, it's just that things in the legislature can take other priorities. I mean, we saw this with the COVID 19 pandemic, where it's like all the states for a couple of years where like, everything now has to focus on COVID. So some of these obstacles are still in place. And it's just a acknowledgment that that's the system that we currently live in.
Katie Vernoy 12:21
So you mentioned kind of getting more providers for places that have provider shortages. And I think that's one of the biggest stated benefits, I think, clinician match and finding clinicians that have a specialty when you don't have a lot of clinicians in your state can be very helpful. There's also continuity of care. I've talked about my clients traveling around and especially as things open back up, there's clinicians or clients that are traveling a lot more and so we have to time their sessions versus just being able to meet at a regular time via telehealth, I think there's a lot of positives that are being seen here. We've started talking about some of the hesitations and and and we are aware that the for the MFT stuff CAMFT, AAMFT and AAMFTRB, you know, what least AMFT and CAMFT are talking and have reached out to AAMFTRB, whatever that is.
Curt Widhalm 13:12
Yeah, you got it right.
Katie Vernoy 13:13
So there's, there's conversations happening, I think, and obviously different stages for all the licenses, there's, there's a, there isn't a knowledge that this is something it's kind of the wave of the future, because we can interact so freely across state lines, like why not get this process in place, but there's a lot of complications, you know, the overarching scope of practice, the complication of setting it up and running it and all those kinds of stuff. There's a lot of stuff that's very challenging there. How much do we want to talk about that, that element versus you, you've already previewed for me anyway, that you are a little bit of a skeptic here. When do we want to what do we When do we want to shift gears to that? Because I think that there's so many folks are super excited about this. And I think there are things that are exciting about it. But there are some real concerns that I want to make sure we get to. So where should we go next? I guess is the question that I'm asking here.
Curt Widhalm 14:06
So this has all of the makings of a wonderful piece of legislation and cooperation that I don't know actually addresses what it's saying that it's intended to address.
Katie Vernoy 14:21
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 14:21
It is no surprise to anybody who listens to our podcasts that we have a mental health crisis, and we have a very understaffed mental health workforce. This theoretically allows for more clients to address more providers, but many of these states are amongst the most impacted as far as having the fewest providers available. And so if you combine 10 states who don't have enough workforce for each of their own individual states, by their 10 powers combined, theoretically can't address that even more people are going to be able to access a limited number of providers. It's not like we have, you know, a bunch of people who are all just residing in Utah, there's, you know, 9 million LPCs in Utah, who now just have like all of this free time to go and see clients who need to see counselors that Utah just has this, you know, mass amounts of people who have been confined to by state lines. This is, you know, a bunch of people without enough food now sharing that they don't have enough food with more people in more places.
Katie Vernoy 15:38
It doesn't make it worse. It just doesn't solve it is what is how I see it. But I think if folks who, if these states that have those needs don't get it started, I think it's hard because I think the big states don't need those extra jobs. Right? I mean, it maybe they do. I mean, I think there's a lot of clinicians in California, they're like, yeah, let me practice somewhere else, because I need I need clients, there's, you know, you could trip over a therapist, every few steps in California. So I mean, it's possible that with this starting, I mean, PSYPACT is going on 34 states. So we've moved beyond the the threshold in PSYPACT, where it's just states that are having provider shortages. I think I think I see what you're saying this does not solve? Did you want to start it?
Curt Widhalm 16:28
But I do want to correct one thing that you're saying is, we have a bias because we hang out with a lot of therapists in a very populated city.
Katie Vernoy 16:38
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 16:38
But California has a mental health workforce shortage as well. It's just that, this goes to address that there's rural parts of our states. And there's rural parts of a lot of these other states that are part of this, that we we have our own shortages, and we're not able to address this inviting more people to address, you know, people in rural areas. It's well intended, but it doesn't motivate or necessarily get people to the jobs that are needed in these positions.
Katie Vernoy 17:12
What you just said actually made me think about the series that we're still somewhat in the process of Fixing Mental Healthcare in America. But I think there's that that piece that the the RAND Corporation identified where there has been efforts and telehealth is a great effort to try to bring, you know, therapy to these rural areas, but the infrastructure and you know, good good WiFi, and all of the pieces to actually be able to address these things potentially are more impactful than just adding clinicians from another state that are probably going to want to access or your wealthy urban clients anyway.
Curt Widhalm 17:52
Which leads to my second criticism of this is that because of the scramble that's going to happen, the people who are most likely able to address the shortcomings of this public policy position across these 10 states are venture capital led groups like BetterHelp, that will do all of the legwork to match you up with clients in all of these rural areas. And we've got other episodes that we will talk in, you know, in BetterHelp's defence it's not just BetterHelp who can take advantage of these. But I have my concerns that the people who have already been doing this against the law, as we've discussed in our previous episodes are motivating therapists to practice across state lines, when they're not allowed to are the ones who are going to continue to contribute to the already capitalistic problems of our profession. And once again, not really with the best intentions of what clients have in store for them. But just by virtue of being able to match people more easily than any of the individual therapists in private practice. Where like, hey, my clients going on vacation, I can still see them for their regular session.
Katie Vernoy 19:21
We'll link to a lot of those episodes in the show notes. But but what I'm hearing you say Curt, is that this is super charging the big tech problem.
Curt Widhalm 19:31
Yes, it is.
Katie Vernoy 19:32
Okay. Mic drop.
Curt Widhalm 19:39
Pick that mic right back up, because they're, I don't know, I'm the resident, you know, contrarian of the show, the one who's maybe trying to poke at things and often I hear from listeners or from Katie or other people in my life is like, Why let perfection be the enemy of good? And so I am looking, you know, for who else opposes this? And I did come across somebody else on the opposition side of this. And it's a little group called the FBI.
Katie Vernoy 20:20
Why? Why is the FBI opposing this?
Curt Widhalm 20:25
For those unfamiliar with the FBI, they are a law enforcement agency. And they are one of the generally two places that when you go to get licensed that your background checks go to.
Katie Vernoy 20:38
Ah, yes.
Curt Widhalm 20:39
And so the rationale in other interstate compacts, including Counseling Compact, including PSYPACT, including medical compacts, and nurses compacts, the FBI has had a pretty consistent position on this. And their reasoning is that these states entering into these agreements, does not give them the right to supersede federal background checks. Now, allowing for practicing privileges in another state allows for the bypass of doing a background check for that state.
Katie Vernoy 21:13
Oh, interesting.
Curt Widhalm 21:14
And the way that the Department of Justice allows for some of these states to get the results of background checks, does not allow for them to share the information from those background checks.
Katie Vernoy 21:27
Oh, that's why if you get licensed in another state, even if you can say like, Hey, I'm licensed over here, they did my background check. The new state still needs a background check.
Curt Widhalm 21:37
And giving practicing privileges as I understand this legislation to be written today does not require background checks. It allows for the disciplinary boards to share information about discipline. But let's say that a therapist from one of these 10 states, goes on a weekend Bender in Vegas and ends up in the Clark County Jail. That information does not necessarily get shared with either licensing states because why, but then also doesn't get shared with any of the other practicing privileged states. It's not something that would mess like up. Overall therapists don't get arrested.
Katie Vernoy 22:22
Yeah, just don't
Curt Widhalm 22:23
Yes. But especially don't get arrested in your practicing states, because you're practicing states have with their own State Department of Justice's, like, California BBS. Like if somebody gets arrested, and they're licensed California, they get a little like, ping the next morning of like, hey, one of your licensees was arrested. But if you're, if you're gonna get arrested, don't get arrested, you know, being outside of your jurisdiction, at least, there's some opportunities to fall through the cracks there. And the...
Katie Vernoy 22:55
Are you telling people to how to avoid getting in trouble?
Curt Widhalm 22:58
This is not legal advice. And legal advice, once again, is don't get arrested. But what the FBI's database does, is allows for this information to be pinged in each time that somebody goes through a background check. The FBI is saying that this does not actually empower any of the states to know information if somebody was to have a an offense against them that wasn't caught or happened after their own background check to get a license in their own state.
Katie Vernoy 23:31
Well, I'm just even thinking for myself, I have not been arrested. I don't have anything that I have to worry about. But yeah, I haven't had a background check for 15 years? So I could be doing all kinds of stuff and get practicing privileges elsewhere - is what you're telling me?
Curt Widhalm 23:48
Yes. And so this very much goes against, according to the FBI, any sort of patient protection that any of these licensing boards are put into place in the first place to protect consumers.
Katie Vernoy 24:03
Well, I haven't think taking this further the whole consumer protection angle, and I think I'm gonna give you credit, you mentioned this before we started recording. But as a consumer, I have no place to check if you actually do have practicing privileges in my state, or if there's any problems. I mean, I guess I could look at your licensing state if I knew how to do that, knew where to do it, and can see if there's any any dings on your license, but, but it really takes some of the stuff out of the consumers hand being able to identify, you know, anything about the person that they're working with.
Curt Widhalm 24:41
And I imagine that these are things that are going to need to be addressed over the next few years as having some way of centrally notifying each other's state licensures or any of that kind of stuff. And I'm sure that there's somebody out there saying, But Curt this hasn't been a problem with PSYPACT yet. And the answer that I have back in response to you is "that we know of, and it will likely happen."
Katie Vernoy 25:13
Well, I think it's something where there's, and this was something that I hadn't thought about. But in a conversation that we had, I think it's something where, with psychologists, the, as far as I know, the licensing exams, their expectations are pretty constant across the United States. And so if somebody messes up in the state that they're licensed in, that's going to have a big impact, because it is the same pretty far across and I, this doesn't address the federal background checks. But I think it does address this kind of idea of all the complexity and and consumers having an issue because what they're expecting from their clinician is not what they get, because their clinician practices way differently than anybody in their state, for example, but MFTs don't have that. I mean, there's that there's a national association, but all 50 states basically have different expectations. Counselors, I think, are a little bit more streamlined and so that's probably why they're moving forward. Social workers are very streamlined, and I'm sure they're going to probably get, you know, glide through this. But I think it's something where that feels solvable, you know, getting a getting some way that there's this the background checks and that kind of stuff, if you're if you're part of this compact, if you choose to get practicing privileges, there's a federal body that you then have to get a background check. And then that, you know, somebody at the federal level is running it versus each state having to do it. You know, I think there's some legislation that could probably really help this. But that seems really expensive. And I'm wondering, you know, there's part of me, that's like do therapists care? Do to consumers care? I mean, like, we're worried about this regulation and there's part of me, and there's a whole podcast devoted to this Very Bad Therapy. But there's, there's bad clinicians that are not going to have oversight. But then there's also all of these clients, who don't have access to therapists who accept them as who they are. And so having some of these things come into place, like to me, it seems like it could be good. So I'm getting all over the place. So bring us back to something that's that's helpful. But I think there's, there's this element of it feels solvable. I just don't know the timeline, or how much money, but...
Curt Widhalm 27:36
That those two points are the problems that I foresee with this, that it's none of these things that I'm bringing up are unsolvable. Maybe the BetterHelp thing. But...
Katie Vernoy 27:52
That's a different problem. It's separate from this problem to solve.
Curt Widhalm 27:55
Right. But it's probably going to be a lot more costs that are passed on to the providers than anybody sees. The buzz that I'm initially hearing from people on this is very much like you that most people are taking this as, oh, I can just kind of see my clients wherever they travel, as long as they're in one of these 10 states.
Katie Vernoy 28:19
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 28:19
And that is not true. And each one of these states is going to be additional costs. And you know, the background checks thing is, all right, you still go down to your local fingerprinting place, you do your live scan, you're just having it reported to a different state board and the FBI each time. And those things add up, you know, 50 bucks at a time adds up. Yeah, times that by 10 states, times it by the application fees, because part of the legislation that was written for all of these states is basically written by the same people. And it's, you know, quote, unquote, not actually a direct quote here, but not going to have anything more than administrative costs passed on to clinicians. There's a lot of administration costs in this that any of the licensing boards are more or less operating at a break even point that adding on a bunch of new staff to process out of state therapists and to verify things. Those are going to be cost that add up. Are they going to be cheaper than getting a license and meeting all the requirements in these other states? Absolutely. But these are costs that are going to add up for people. This is not going to be a free for all that all of these state licensing boards are going to allow here.
Katie Vernoy 29:40
Yeah, I think that's the thing that's that's hard because there's a lot of elements to this, that says that like this is this, this makes everything smooth and easy. This really provides additional access and the more we've talked together about it when we've talked to other folks about it, it just I'm hearing that there is so much complexity to how this operates, that it may not happen for all states, because you know, states that have enough clinician, states that have a higher cost of living, they may not feel the need to, to add to their costs, or their clinician base. And so they're not going to take it on. But but when I look at, you know, really what we're talking about, it's, it's trying to put a bandaid on this problem. And hopefully, it's it's something that there's actually real federal legislation that can help to increase the infrastructure in places that need more clinicians, help to, to create systems that actually address some of these concerns that you're bringing up. But that would require tax dollars, versus clinicians paying application fees, and all those things. I mean, I heard, I think that's the thing I heard was like, millions of dollars to get this setup, you know, I mean, like, that's, I guess, if you've got a lot of clinicians, that's a cross of a lot of clinicians, you know, if they are savvy clinicians, those fees are then incorporated into the fees they charge, which then for private pay clinicians anyway means that they're charging more. Insurance panels aren't going to pay you more just because you've got some extra that's under your belt. And so it's something where the cost thing hasn't been figured out, nor has the infrastructure both on the client side, but also on this regulatory side, it feels like there's just so much to figure out here.
Curt Widhalm 31:35
And that's something that I haven't even seen how insurance is going to work across state lines that I willingly admit that I don't know the inner workings of a lot of the insurance process, but knowing that, all right, yeah, it's great that you can see a client to timezones away. But does their insurance allow it? And this is another factor that's going to be in it. And, you know, we can talk all day long, and I'm already pre addressing some of the criticisms of this episode from people. We don't yet have universal health care. Don't even bring that up, like...
Katie Vernoy 32:14
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 32:15
Don't make arguments about systems that we don't have. These are problems that need to be addressed in the meantime. And yeah, I know that some people are going to say that this is the first step towards national licensure and this kind of stuff. OK or maybe...
Katie Vernoy 32:32
It may, it may actually delay it, it may delay it, because it's a band aid where people can go practice in other states. So why would I get a national license, if I can practice in a couple other states and not worry about taking another task, getting another background check, blah, blah, blah. I before we before we finish up, because I think there's probably going to be responses that then lead to additional episodes on this topic. But I think that just to kind of maybe poke the beast here a little bit. But with the with the insurance stuff, I think we're already seeing what insurance companies are going to do. And that is contract with these large tech companies that have clinicians across all the states pay them more so clinicians can get more, but it means that individual practitioners almost de facto have to be private pay, because they're going to get worse insurance rates, and they're not going to be able to really compete, certainly not in advertising dollars, or whatever. And we have a whole episode on this, but they're not able to compete with a gigantic quote unquote, tech solutions and or group practices. And so I think, I think it's something where there is a lot to consider here. I think there's going to be a lot of conversations that we want to have related to the disruptors, the tech disruptors in the space, who are the good ones, who are the ones that are challenging, and potentially hurting our profession? How do we, you know, step into this and, and take ownership of this space because, you know, there is so much and and potentially these these compacts allow for us to compete at this level. Or it may make it harder and I guess that's to be seen, I really think.
Curt Widhalm 34:14
Giving over the power, giving over the insurance contracts to publicly traded corporations means decisions get made quarter by quarter based on profits. And that is not what the healthcare system should be. We're kind of in a space where some people are able to compete against that but so many more episodes to be done on this. We will include some links to some stuff in our show notes. You can find those over at mtsgpodcast.com. You can bring up your concerns or tell us why you think that I am wrong on our social media.
Katie Vernoy 34:54
Or I'm wrong. I we've got a lot that we said here. So definitely join us over at the Facebook Group, tell us what we're what we missed, because we certainly missed a lot, I'm sure.
Curt Widhalm 35:04
And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 35:08
Thanks again to our sponsor, OOTify.
Curt Widhalm 35:10
“OOT” or “uth” (उठ) means “lift up” in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community connection and collaboration are critical to OOTify. As they lift the mental health care system, they ensure providers are part of the process. OOTify is a platform for providers built by providers and owned by providers. OOTify is in the process of lifting up mental health care while lifting each other up.
OOTify 35:43
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're gonna go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health proactively our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together, people are more open to talk about these stories and say, Hey, listen, I'm going through this too. Do you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the unified community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Curt Widhalm 36:25
This episode is also brought to you by Turning Point.
Katie Vernoy 36:29
We wanted to tell you a little bit more about our sponsor Turning Point. Turning Point is a financial planning and coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money. Dave, our good buddy over atTurning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans. He'll help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed, and arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
Curt Widhalm 37:00
And for listeners of MTSG you'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter the promo code 'moderntherapist', be sure and visit turningpointhq.com and download the free white papers Seven Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety. That's turningpointhq.com
Announcer 37:18
Thank you for listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Clinical Considerations When Working with Asian Immigrants, Refugees, and Dreamers: An Interview with Soo Jin Lee Curt and Katie interview Soo Jin Lee, LMFT on the clinical implications of working with Asian American immigrants, refugees, and dreamers. We explore how best to assess these clients, specific clinical considerations related to the immigration experience (and legal status in the country), and ideas for working with these clients clinically. We also talk about the impact of societal views, media portrayals, and representation on AAPI clients.
An Interview with Soo Jin Lee, LMFT Soo Jin Lee is a co-director of Yellow Chair Collective and co-founder of Entwine Community. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist in CA and has a special focus on training and consulting on Asian mental health related issues. She is passionate about assisting individuals find a sense of belonging and identity through reckoning of intersectional identity work and those that are navigating through difficult life changes.
In this podcast episode, we talk about what therapists should know about Asian American immigrants, refugees, and dreamers In preparation for Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage month, we wanted to dig more deeply into specific issues relevant to the AAPI community that are often not discussed in grad school or therapist training programs.
What assessment questions should be included for AAPI immigrant clients? * How to assess and ask about the immigration story (including about whether someone is documented or undocumented) * The assumption of citizenship status during the assessment * Exploration of cultural values and family dynamics * The definitions for refugee, asylum seekers, immigrant, undocumented immigrant, dreamer * Looking at reasons behind coming to the United States as well as legal status in the country
What is the impact of societal views and media portrayals of Asians on AAPI clients? * The common stereotypes and the gap in the representation in the Asian diaspora * The typical portrayal of undocumented immigrants from Latin America, Mexico, etc. * Lack of representation in the media of the broad experience of being an undocumented immigrant or refugee * The misrepresentation of families being all documented or undocumented (it’s actually a mix of statuses) * Language, cultural and values differences between the generations
What are the unique clinical issues for refugees and undocumented immigrants?
“We call ourselves dreamers, but at the same time the dreams tend to be a lot smaller or not attainable because there are also educational barriers and there are financial barriers as well.” – Soo Jin Lee, LMFT
- The uncertainty of staying in the country
- The hidden traumas and the fear of being kicked out
- The lack of planning for the future
- Education and financial barriers to pursuing the future
- Trauma and PTSD are key elements, but sharing the story means that their survival is at risk
How do therapists more effectively work with refugees and undocumented immigrants in therapy?
“Provide a safe enough space and perhaps a more creative space, so that the story, the entirety of their journey, does not have to be nitpicked and talked about in a verbal manner. Are there modalities that you can adapt as a therapist, that they can go through in their mind, in a story book, in an art format, or any other way… that they can tell their story without being asked and interrogated about their story?” – Soo Jin Lee, LMFT
- The fear and risk involved in disclosure and the challenge of talking about identity
- Exploring their story creatively, without nitpicking or having to interrogate or make them verbalize their story
- The importance of building trust and building a safe space within therapy
- Bringing the mainstream media into the session
- Addressing fear and decision-making
- Soo Jin Lee’s healing journey to become a therapist and advice for other dreamers
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Turning Point Financial Life Planning Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
Turning Point is a financial planning & coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money.
Dave at Turning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life - from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing, taxes and student loans.
He'll help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed...
And arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
And for listeners of MTSG, you'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter promo code Modern Therapist.
Be sure and visit turningpointHQ.com and download the free whitepaper “7 Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety”
OOTify OOTify. "OOT" or "uth" (उठ) means "lift up" in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence-based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community, Connection, and Collaboration are critical to OOTIFY. As they lift the mental healthcare system, they ensure providers are part of the process. OOTIFY is a platform for providers, built by providers, and owned by providers. OOTIFY is the process of lifting up mental healthcare, while lifting each other up.
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're going to go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health, proactively, our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together. People are more open to talk about these stories and say, “Hey, listen, I'm going through this too.” Do be you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the OOTify community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Yellow Chair Collective
Yellow Chair Collective on Instagram
Asian American Experience Support Group
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Asian American Mental Health: An interview with Linda Yoon, LCSW
Let’s Talk About Race Again: An interview with Yin Li, LMFT
Therapy with an Accent: An interview with Nam Rindani, LMFT
Invisible and Scrutinized: An interview with Dr. Sheila Modir
Therapy for Intercountry Transracial Adoptees: An interview with Moses Farrow, LMFT
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Turning Point.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists stop worrying about money. Confidently navigate every aspect of your financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing taxes and student loans.
Curt Widhalm 00:17
Visit turningpointhq.com to learn more and enter the promo code "moderntherapist" for $200 off any service.
Katie Vernoy 00:25
This episode is also brought to you by OOTify.
Curt Widhalm 00:28
OOTify is an immersive digital mental health ecosystem. It's designed to help minimize the fragmentation, trial and error, and overwhelmed felt by both patients and providers in the process of giving and receiving care. OOTify is the process of lifting up mental health care while lifting each other up.
Katie Vernoy 00:45
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:48
You're listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm, and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:04
Welcome back modern therapists, this is The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and this is the podcast for therapists about the things that we do, the things that we should be aware of in helping our clients and making the therapy a better place. And we are joined today by Soo Jin Lee, LMFT, and director of the Yellow Chair Collective, and wanting to have a really good conversation today about working with immigrants and refugees. Particularly, we're going to focus this episode around working with Asian clients, Asian immigrants and refugees, some of the considerations that we should have and how this fits within kind of the broader discussions around immigrants. And we're working with these kinds of clients that we've either ignored or not really had a great conversation about. So welcome to the podcasts. Thanks for joining us.
Soo Jin Lee 02:05
Thank you for having me.
Katie Vernoy 02:06
We are so excited to have you here and have this conversation. You and I met like almost probably a year ago and talked about this. And so I'm so glad we were able to make this happen. The first question we ask everyone is who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Soo Jin Lee 02:23
Yeah. So as Curt introduced, my name is Soo Jin Lee, I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and the director here at Yellow Chair Collective. I guess a little bit about me outside of that is I myself am also an immigrant. So I am what's considered a 1.5 generation immigrant. And that just means that I came here at a very young age. I will also talk about this a little bit, I'm sure within this podcast, but I also grew up as an undocumented immigrant. And so those are aspects that I would love to introduce everyone to today.
Curt Widhalm 03:02
So we usually start with questions to help people in the learning process. This is not a shaming sort of question. This is a if we can prevent people from making the same mistakes that other people have made in the past. But what do therapists typically get wrong in working with immigrants and refugees?
Soo Jin Lee 03:22
Yeah, so one of the biggest things that come to mind for me is not having a proper assessment questions, or maybe even just having a lot of fear, general fear around asking clients about their immigration story. Right? When I say immigration story, I imagine that when people see me when I went to go see a therapist, my therapist also never bothered to ask me about my immigration story. So she'd never, in the span of two years, found out that I was an immigrant, and that even I was an undocumented immigrant, which speaks to a big chunk of my life, right. And so those are missing pieces, I think, in the therapy room, oftentimes, because those are not asked. So the therapists don't really get a full picture of a lot of immigrant and refugee experiences or the family of origin backgrounds. And I think this comes often for the case for a lot of mono lingual clinicians that are speaking English. And they find themselves sitting with a client that also speaks English very fluently. So then the assumption is that we're both American citizens sitting in the room together, right?
Curt Widhalm 04:46
There seems to be a lot of space for assumption in here and wondering if you could maybe give a little bit more guidance as far as like, on one hand, I don't want to assume that you're American by birth, but also don't want to assume that you're in immigrant just because you would appear different than a monolingual like clinician. I can see this potentially going both ways here and you have maybe a recommendation for people working with communities outside of their own backgrounds to maybe navigate that line a little bit.
Soo Jin Lee 05:20
Yeah, for sure. And I think one of the things that we'll go into detail about a little bit later is about how to frame and ask these questions. But I think the first thing is to quick get into the mindset of when you're assessing a client, just as much as you're asking them about their trauma history, that you get into the habit of asking about their cultural values and backgrounds and belief systems, which not only includes their immigration story, but it also includes their spiritual backgrounds as well.
Katie Vernoy 05:51
I would imagine that even just broadly asking about family and about cultural values, that that would be something that would organically come up. Is that your experience?
Soo Jin Lee 06:01
Exactly.
Katie Vernoy 06:01
Your immagration story?
Soo Jin Lee 06:02
Yeah, exactly. Right. And so when the therapist was asking me and I often are asking about family dynamic issues, or things that are impacting barriers that your parent and you are having, oftentimes, the immigration story is part of that if they are immigrants or refugees.
Katie Vernoy 06:23
It seems like there's a knowledge here that we need to have that we don't quite have yet. And so I want to ask more of a basic question, which is we're kind of using immigrant, refugee and undocumented immigrant, can you help us kind of make sure that we're all on the same page on those definitions?
Soo Jin Lee 06:40
Yes. So let's start by definitions, the fun stuff, right. All right. So I'm going to add another term to this conversation as well. Another definition as well. But first things, let's define refugees, right? This is a term that is being thrown around a lot on the news right now. So refugees are people who have fled their own country, because they are at the risk of serious human rights violation and persecution, from where they're residing, right. They're fleeing their country, they're fleeing their home. Okay, so those are widely known as refugees and can be defined as being refugees. Now, another term that I want to define that you didn't ask, is asylum seekers. And the reason why I want to do that is because on the news, they're also used, you know, interchangeably.
Katie Vernoy 07:34
Yeah.
Soo Jin Lee 07:34
Yeah. So asylum seekers are exactly the same, like a person that is leaving their country and seeking protection from persecution and serious human rights violations from their own country, but who haven't yet been legally recognized as a refugee, and they're waiting to receive the decisions for the claim of their asylum. Right? So there's kind of this legal status, that is the difference. So on the news, they're kind of thrown around, you know, interchangeably. But if a client is defining themselves to be either asylum seeker or refugee, that really speaks into kind of this political legal status of standing that they're in, in this country. So now we go into immigrants then. And immigrants, like I identified myself as an immigrant, right, are people that have made a conscious decision to leave their country, their home and to move to a foreign country and their intention of moving is to resettle there, right, to not go back home and relive there but to resettle into this new country. So we have a lot of immigrants in this country, right. A lot of people come from other places around the world and their intention and they make that decision very consciously. They plan for this immigration journey. And they intend on resettling here making this into their home, right. A lot of the reasons for resettling, a lot of people ask me this too like, what why do people want to live here? Why the United States? Some of them with a little bit of a snarky attitude, right, like why would anybody want to live here? Right. And there's a bunch of reasons. So I can't tell you exactly what those reasons are. And that's for you to find out with your client.
Katie Vernoy 09:37
Sure sure.
Soo Jin Lee 09:38
There are that immigrants if they're the refugees, and you know that these are two different kind of journey that they have gone through, if they're refugee, they've really left out of a need, while for immigrants to they do leave out of a need oftentimes, too. But for refugees, really they had no choice but to leave. But for most of the times, a lot of immigrants did would have the choice to leave. Now I'm gonna add to that just a little bit. Because for me, as I've introduced myself, it was kind of a unique, where I didn't really get a choice to leave, but I am still an immigrant too, right. And so an undocumented immigrant are people who are born in another country, but have no legal status in the United States. You know, it's funny, because as I was kind of preparing this, and I was trying to think about how to define these kinds of terms, I read an article that was defining undocumented immigrants as foreign born person who does not have legal rights to remain in the United States. Right. And so when I saw this definition, I felt like, wow, this is perfect portrayal of how many Americans think about undocumented immigrants, right, that they don't have any rights to be here.
Katie Vernoy 11:03
Hmm, interesting. Yeah.
Soo Jin Lee 11:07
So my definition is that I just don't have or had in the past, a legal status here, a document that tells me my identity as anything here in the United States.
Curt Widhalm 11:20
You're talking about dreamers. Right.
Soo Jin Lee 11:22
So dreamers? Well, I do identify as dreamers, but undocumented immigrants or anyone that does not have any legal status in the United States.
Curt Widhalm 11:32
Okay.
Soo Jin Lee 11:33
Yeah, dreamers, I identify as dreamers. And that's another term where they came so with their parents, as young children in the United States, and became undocumented through that journey, right.
Curt Widhalm 11:49
Okay.
Soo Jin Lee 11:49
So an example of that is, and you can add this too. So the reason why I was undocumented is because my parents came here with a ToR visa, a visitor's visa. So a visitor's visa in the United States from where I'm from, allows you to stay in the United States for up to six months. Their intention was to overstay the visa and resettle here. But they could not find any other way of staying in the United States. Without having found a job in the six months of visiting the country, right, which they really couldn't, they couldn't find a right sponsor and the job. So then, during the time that my parents were looking for a job that would sponsor them to become residents, we all became undocumented. And then, during the time, where that sponsorship, was gained and lost, and this whole process of becoming a resident, I ended up becoming 21 years of age and older, which meant that my parents were able to gain their residency status, where I had to now be an adult here by myself, applying to become a resident. So that defined me to be a dreamer. Dreamers are under this umbrella of undocumented immigrants.
Curt Widhalm 13:22
So depending on the mainstream news source that people watch, there's some different portrayals of people. And I think that that has created an overarching narrative around some of these terms, and especially around you know, as you're describing undocumented, and refugees, and I don't know that the media necessarily separates them as well as you do here. Katie, and I is born and bred, people from America, we have a different perspective on how the media portrays immigrants. How are from your side of things, how are Asian immigrants portrayed? And what does that impact like?
Soo Jin Lee 14:04
Yeah, that's a really good question. So Asian Americans in general, right, whether they are immigrants, whether they're refugees, whether they're undocumented, or and all of these terms, whether they were born here, or whether even they might be fourth or fifth, sixth generation Americans, they're all portrayed into this box. And often this box is painted as Asians with lighter skin color, often East Asians, and often a lot more recently, too, as wealthy or quote unquote, Crazy Rich, right? They're often portrayed to be smart, law abiding, but not yet citizens. They're still foreigners, but they are law abiding right? So there's this huge gap of representation in the Asian diaspora. So geographically, Middle East, Southeast Asians are still part of Asia too. Right. But in the United States, it really seems that how Asian and Asian Americans are displayed is really just one way in one picture. And I fall under that category to as Korean American as East Asian, often I find myself seeing people that look like me have my colored skin being displayed on the media. But yeah, they don't really have the full scale of experience that I carry, right. They're usually very wealthy, I have no idea what they, how those people got their wealth. But often, right, that those are the stories that are being told. And none of the other stories get to be represented in the media.
Katie Vernoy 16:02
Or it seems like if they're represented in the media, there is this kind of sinister tone to it. And there's kind of a negative portrayal. And so I guess the question I have we've, we've had some of this conversation before, we've talked a few times about the model minority myth, we've talked about kind of some of the representations in the media, but but like, holding this conversation into immigrants, refugees, and undocumented immigrants, it seems like that experience is a bit different than the folks that are fourth, fifth generation, those types of things. Because I think there's, there's something that we're missing, when we don't have that full perspective. So maybe speaking into that would be helpful for our audience today. And we'll link to the other episodes in the show notes so people can dig deeper into kind of the broader topic of AAPI mental health.
Soo Jin Lee 16:52
Yeah, for sure. And so going off of that a little bit. So then when you think of undocumented immigrants, right, oftentimes, there is absolutely no portrayal or representation of Asian immigrants in that picture in that light at all. Right? Oftentimes, you are seeing on the news of people from Mexico or Latin America, Central America that are crossing the border, or they're criminals, or they are portrayed to be drug dealers, and undocumented immigrants, for a lot of them, although around half of them are from either Mexico or Latin America. A lot of the other half are from all other parts of the world, and a big chunk of that are Asians. And yet, we're not being displayed in that way. Right? We don't We are not represented in that manner.
Curt Widhalm 17:50
What's the impact on people growing up without that representation?
Soo Jin Lee 17:55
A lot of the things the, I guess, the commonly shared concerns that undocumented immigrants and refugees have, first of all, most of the immigrants and refugee families when we also think about them, it's that family unit that we think are all immigrants, or refugees, right? Because that's also portrayed in the media, like all the families are coming together to have this survival. But in the United States, most immigrants and refugee families are what we like to call a mix immigration status. Right. So one of the examples of that is, of course, what I've mentioned, right, where my parents became president, and then now citizens were I wasn't able to I was undocumented. Right. So there's this mix immigration status within one family unit. So I read that about two thirds of children of undocumented parents, right. Have US foreign citizen, kids. So then they also have a lot of this, you know, mixed status within families. Right. And then there's also children, like me, who move to the country at a young age and then stay undocumented. And then their parents got status. So there's a lot, right. Commonly shared concern that this family unit can have is this gap, right? between parents and children. There's a huge gap of sometimes language barrier, but cultural barrier and value barriers to an understanding each other. And so these are things that a lot of our clients, my own clients are bringing to the table of being able to kind of discuss, hey, here's my identity as this one person And my parents do not share that identity in a similar manner, or their struggles are looks so different from me. And yet I'm trying to figure out how to connect with them, and connect with myself and connect with the community. And so these are very, very common struggles that I hear.
Katie Vernoy 20:20
I'm thinking that you have two clients, similar age, potentially similar heritage, you know, let's say both are Korean American, and one is a refugee and one or, or an undocumented intergroup immigrant. And you can decide which one is more relevant here. And one is fourth or fifth generation. I may make assumptions if I don't understand the different stories, but But what might be the nuance there of what I need to be aware of for this client that has either refugee undocumented immigrant status, like what what what are the things that are important for me to be aware of separate from kind of the experience as an Asian American, or Korean American in the United States?
Soo Jin Lee 21:02
Yeah. So as undocumented or refugee immigrant, that daily struggles of unhidden trauma that they endure, can look really different. If you can imagine, if you're an undocumented immigrant in the United States, you always can be thrown out of your home at any time of the day, they literally come to your door, say pack up your things, and then you're headed to the jail, where then you will wait to be sent to the airport, and then out of here. For a lot of undocumented immigrants like me, who consider themselves to be dreamers, this is our home. This is where we grew up, we have no other home, we have, oftentimes, the dreamers may not even speak the language of their parents origin or where they come from themselves, right? So then there's this continual fear of is this going to be it. So a lot of times, you'll find that we call them dreamers, we call ourselves dreamers. But at the same time, the dreams tend to be a lot smaller or not attainable, because there's also educational barriers. And there's financial barriers to right. Undocumented immigrants also suffer from the fact that after you graduate from high school, you may not be able to go to college, because oftentimes, undocumented immigrants need to go through this whole other other paperwork in order for them to be admitted, and pay for the tuition. And out of college, if they do get through college, then how to find a job, right. Without documentation, oftentimes, they are unable to find employment, or when they do, it's what's called, you know, under the table, pay, right? So then this whole question of what is my future going to look like? I want to become this or that I want to be an engineer, just like everyone else. And I'm told that in America, that we can fulfill this dream, right? I'm told I can be anything. Except I'm not an American. So that dream is not really applicable to me. Right? What I have to think about is, what I'm, what am I going to do to survive here? What am I going to do to obtain status here so that that dream can come true? Right, so this extra barrier, extra concern, extra fear, that is always in the back of their minds.
Curt Widhalm 23:48
What do you recommend for therapists to do to work with this? I mean, there seems to be such great existential exploration here. But a lot of existential stuff can kind of come with the, at least the traditional ways that it seems to be taught comes with the security of at least you have this time in this space that is going to be yours. But what do you recommend therapists do in working with clients presenting with kind of this fear that's kind of constantly always sitting there?
Soo Jin Lee 24:20
Yeah, so I think for a lot of therapists, you're pretty familiar with being able to work with trauma, and being familiar with working with PTSD. And so the first thing that I do want to note is for a lot of undocumented immigrants and for refugees, sharing the story oftentimes meant that they their survival was at risk. And it speaks true still for undocumented immigrants that are living here, right. For refugees, that might mean that back home that that was the case, if they identify themselves in a certain way or if they find And if people find out or the government finds out about their their identity, their status, then they might be murdered, right? For undocumented immigrants here, if their undocumented status becomes known to the public known to the government, anybody reports them, or anything like that, there's always the fear that now my home is going to be taken away, my everything will be taken away, right. So there's always that fear. So being able to come to therapy, and to be asked to speak on your identity, to speak on your journey is quite a huge gap of what's being told for you to do on a survival basis. Right. And to get to that story, I think, takes a long time of building rapport. And, of course, that is the basic of all therapy. But really, though, to treat it, treat it very carefully, and being able to provide a safe enough space, and perhaps a more creative space. So that perhaps the story, the entirety of their journey, does not have to be nitpicked and talked about in a verbal manner, right? Are there modalities that you can adapt as a therapist, that they can go through in their mind, in a storybook, in an art format, or any other way in a motion format, right? That they can tell their story, without having to be asked and interrogated about their story.
Katie Vernoy 26:39
I feel like I want to know more about what you're describing here. Because this I think I'm understanding but I don't want to make, I want to make sure I'm not making assumptions. So you're talking about putting creative methods forward.
Soo Jin Lee 26:53
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 26:54
Tell me more. I'm still kind of trying to sort this out.
Soo Jin Lee 26:56
Okay. I don't know. So, I really love utilizing EMDR as part of my practice. And I know brainspotting can be another another one that goes off of EMDR. Because it utilizes the body, and it goes through the journey of people's trauma without having to verbalize it. I think that's a perfect example of how people can go through processing their fear and trauma responses, without having to tell me about it.
Katie Vernoy 27:29
That makes sense. Thank you.
Soo Jin Lee 27:32
Yeah. Another thing EMDR is definitely not for everyone. And it may not be very acceptable for some of my clients too, especially some of the older older folks. They really don't like having to move their eyes or, you know, they they really don't understand, like, Why Why am I keep tapping myself. So, so then I introduce just another format of like, being able to draw out their story. So literally trying it out, like is there a color that represents how you're feeling is there, or a rock or any item on your on your table that you want to tell me about? Right, that speaks to your culture, that speaks to your value. So then we're talking about this headband, that's sitting on their table, we're talking about sensory oriented things, too. We talk about the weather a lot, actually, as a way to imagine and use imagery of going back into their place of origin. Because weather exists everywhere, it's a common thing that we are experiencing. And we are using our sensories to connect with it all the time, connect with ourselves, and our sense of belonging in the world is oftentimes through temperature through weather through the humidity in the air. So then we talk about that, and we talk about in comparison to how it was back in your country as well, right. And so then that brings about a little bit of healing in a way I get to explore, I get to talk about my other self, or my other parts that I was told that I have to be hiding. And I get to bring that in here without being interrogated.
Curt Widhalm 29:25
And like you said earlier, this for clinicians who are coming from different backgrounds takes a lot of time to develop that trust and that ability to create and honor the space and the stories of people being able to tell them in their own ways. You know, one of the things and this is totally not on our list of questions, but one of the things that I've seen a lot of excitement about is even just kind of the positive representations of like the movie Turning Red coming out that has really opened up a lot of these stories and opportunities to talk about things in ways that haven't necessarily been so mainstream that clients, clinicians are really resonating with as an opportunity to say, oh, yeah, this is this is now something that allows for me to connect to this in a way that you might not have understood before.
Soo Jin Lee 30:22
Yes. What is the question in that?
Curt Widhalm 30:25
There is not a question.
Soo Jin Lee 30:30
Okay, yes, for sure. I think if I were to kind of just add to that, yeah. For a lot of clinicians, you can do a lot of research now, on looking at these shows, and being able to bring that into the therapy room, I think being able to talk about some of the mainstream media, that is how they are portraying certain cultures, and how clients they resonate with that or not resonate with that, what the differences are, what were you drawn to, what emotions came out of you from that watching that? Those are really good conversations to have about their family immigration journey, or they're just their own understanding of their, their own cultural backgrounds.
Katie Vernoy 31:14
I want to address a couple of things. I know, we don't have a lot of time, but I want to address a couple of things that you've talked about, because I think they're just so visceral to me. And I think that that element of fear, and dreams are small, and some of these ideas around when you have either an undocumented status, or if your refugee status maybe is at risk, depending on I know, there's a lot of different ways that folks are able to seek refugee status. And I know that there's some folks that have to keep reupping it every, you know, whatever, few years, those types of things. And I think it can be extremely hard to build a life when you don't know if the future is what the future holds. And so maybe a little bit more into that topic, because there's the trauma, of course, and I love how you talked about kind of assessing that and being able to heal that. But I'm a practical person, I'm like, Okay, well, part of our mental health is being able to set a course for our lives and be able to do some of these things. And I know that just doesn't sound like it's completely possible. So maybe if you can talk a little bit about how you walk in that space of finding mental health and wellness, while also knowing that these fears are completely justified. And this temporary status is something that that really does impact folks on a day to day basis.
Soo Jin Lee 32:41
Yeah. So when we talk about how fear interrupts their day to day basis, then we're getting into more of the behavior and the cognition of what what it looks like on their day to day and how it impacts their day to day, right. So if the client is interested in working through their decision making, because the fear is getting in the way of making certain decisions of, for example, let's say should I even accept this college? Because I'm not even sure if I'm going to continue into graduation? Why bother? Right? Now, that's a mindset and a cognition, and that belief system that we can work through, within whatever, you know, therapists modality of choice in order for them to achieve the whatever it is that the client wants to achieve. Is it that they really want to go into college, but the fear is getting getting in the way, right. Another thing, I think, on a very practical level, is just the level of anxiety and the threshold that they're living with on a day to day basis. So then the fear response, and the trauma response comes out in a way where it's oftentimes is insomnia, within their relationships. Right. So those are things that I think, as mental wellness practitioners can really provide the tools for, right on a day to day basis of like, okay, what are you eating? What, how are you sleeping? And are these things that we really should be concerned about? Right.
Katie Vernoy 34:15
And just the the final question that I have is, is about, you're walking this journey yourself. And so I'm thinking about our audience members, who are also undocumented immigrants or folks who are in this space and you've accomplished becoming a therapist and doing those things, but it seems like it's something where there would be some additional things for our health, mental health providers who are in these spaces to be able to take care of themselves and to think about their journey as a therapist. And so kind of the survivor guide element for our our therapists who are, are grappling with being undocumented or being a dreamer.
Soo Jin Lee 34:56
For me, I think I and everyone has their story of why they became a therapist. For me, I became a therapist because of my immigration journey. And that practice of finding myself, my story, my voice, and how to even understand that was the healing journey for me. And I found that through working with others that were telling about their story and was willing to open up their lives, their emotions, their family dynamic issues with me, I think. So oftentimes people find understanding, through relating their stories with others. The theme of what we're talking about today is how we're not being represented enough, that we're not being seen enough, we're not being heard enough, right? In all these different aspects of layers, in the media, in the government, through this whole legal journey. So I think what I want to say is, finding myself was the most healing thing that I could have done for my community at the end.
Katie Vernoy 36:28
I love that.
Curt Widhalm 36:30
Where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?
Soo Jin Lee 36:34
So you can find us at yellowchaircollective.com and on Instagram at YellowTreeCollective. We provide individual, family, couples therapy services. But the unique thing that I think we're providing is the cultural specific identity issues. And the support groups that built around those issues. Right, we have a support group, just called the Asian American Experience support group. And although we wanted to make it a little bit of a therapy group, where people can be doing doing a lot of processing, which we do, but we call that a support group, because we realized that a lot of people outside of California were in need of mental health support and community spaces that they couldn't find it within their own states. So that we expanded it to be a support group. That way anyone in the United States can find us and sit in this online space, and hear other people's stories like and connect and relate and find healing and that
Curt Widhalm 37:48
We will include links to all of that in our show notes. You can find those over at mtsgpodcast.com. And follow us on our social media, join our Facebook group, The Modern Therapist group. And let us know your reactions to this episode as well as, especially if you are a therapist with a similar story around being a refugee, immigrant. we would love to continue to elevate voices in our community around that. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Soo Jin Lee.
Katie Vernoy 38:26
Thanks again to our sponsor, Turning Point.
Curt Widhalm 38:29
Wanted to tell you a little bit more about our sponsor Turning Point. Turning Point is a financial planning and coaching firm that helps therapists stop worrying about money. Dave at Turning Point will help you navigate every aspect of your financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing taxes and student loans. He will help you move through that feeling of being stuck, frustrated and overwhelmed and arrive at a place where you feel relief, validation, motivation and hope.
Katie Vernoy 38:58
And for listeners of The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. You'll receive $200 off the price of any service. Just enter promo code 'moderntherapist' and be sure and visit turningpointhq.com and download the free white paper Seven Money Mindset Shifts to Reduce Financial Anxiety. Thanks again to Turning Point.
Curt Widhalm 39:18
This episode is also brought to you by OOTify.
Katie Vernoy 39:22
"OOT" or "uth" (उठ) means "lift up" in the Hindi language. OOTify is a digital health solution that acts as an evidence based hub to unify relevant mental health resources. Community connection and collaboration are critical to OOTify as they lift the mental health care system. They ensure providers are part of the process. OOTify is a platform for providers built by providers and owned by providers. OOTify is a process of lifting up mental health care while lifting each other up.
OOTify 39:54
We need to talk about our mental health. We need to make our mental health stronger so we can withstand the things that happen in our life. We're gonna go through trials and tribulations. But if we can work on our mental health, proactively our wellness, we can handle all that as a community and come together. People are more open to talk about these stories and say, Hey, listen, I'm going through this too. Do be you want to be a part of the solution by joining a new web three community focused on mental health and wellness? Join the OOTify community as an investor or mental health provider by visiting ootify.com/contact. You can also give us a follow on social media to stay tuned on exciting updates.
Announcer 40:35
Thank you for listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Reflections on Content Creation and the Therapy Profession Curt and Katie chat about our principles and philosophies as they relate to the work we do, including podcast creation. We also reflect on the feedback we’ve received on episodes with large listenership as well as other typical responses we get to the work we do. Considering content creation as part of your business? This isn’t a how-to, but it certainly can give you things to consider before you dive in.
In this podcast episode we talk about how we put together the podcast We’ve received a lot of feedback recently about our episodes and we wanted to talk about how we make decisions on what we talk about, who we interview, whether we call folks out on the podcast, and how we edit the episodes.
Our Philosophy and Principles for creating content for the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide
“We can talk about how to navigate the career, but at some point, we become complicit in a broken system. And so, we've been talking about how to balance: how do we give the tools to navigate what is, and then also give the empowerment and/or the validation that advocacy needs to happen.” – Katie Vernoy
- How to navigate the career as is (tools and strategies to survive in this field)
- The importance of advocacy in moving forward with our field
- How to strategically time advocacy for best effect
- How we take in feedback and respond
Responding to Feedback from our Audience on our “What’s New in the DSM-5-TR?” Episode * The concern about the Autism diagnosis changes * Whether we should have called out Dr. Michael B. First and the impressions of what was said * Grappling with the tension between protecting our audience and getting our guests on record and/or advocating for change in the larger systems * How people can impact what becomes DSM 6 (and the efforts we are advocating for) * The feedback we received and how we sort through it and improve * The limits of our capacity * Our plans for additional interviews to address the changes
“It's been my experience in advocacy, that large systems end up ignoring those individual voices. Those individual voices are incredibly powerful when they're used in the right place at the right time.” – Curt Widhalm
A Broader View of the Feedback We Receive on the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast * The depth of the conversation and our ability to deepen conversations with additional episodes * Audience members anchoring on the title or episode artwork and not looking at the whole episode when pieces of the content resonate in a different way
Our Plan Going Forward with the Podcast * Advocacy, information, and focus on the profession * Not as much of a focus on business building, money mindset, and side hustles * Real conversations about the realities of working in this profession * Working to leave the profession better than we find it
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using THIS LINK if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time!
Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing Today’s episode of The Therapy Reimagined podcast is brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing. Melissa is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources.
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the “How to Win at Social Media (even with no budget!)” course from marketing expert, Melissa Forziat.
It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn’t just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will work you step-by-step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the thousands, but to make it accessible to small businesses, it is available for only $247. PLUS, as a listener of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, you can use promo code THERAPY to get 10% off. So, if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click THIS LINK and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today!
Please note that Therapy Reimagined/The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast is a paid affiliate for Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing, so we will get a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using our link. Thank you in advance!
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Therapy Reimagined Mission
Our Patreon
Buy Me A Coffee
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: What’s New in the DSM-5-TR?
A Living Wage for Prelicensees
Mission Driven Work
Therapists are Not Robots
Why You Shouldn’t Sell Out to Better Help
Advocacy in the Wake of Looming Healthcare Shortages
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of The Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by Thrizer.
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Thrizer is a modern billing platform for private pay therapists. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer you can potentially save them hundreds every month with no extra work on your end. The best part is you don't need to give up your rate they charge a standard 3% payment processing fee. By using the link in the show notes you can get a month of billing without processing fees just to test them out for your clients.
Curt Widhalm 00:30
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Katie Vernoy 00:34
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing
Curt Widhalm 00:39
Melissa Forziat is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources, including the very special course How to Win at Social Media, Even with No Budget. Stay tuned to the end of the episode to learn how you can get the most from social media marketing, even with little to no budget.
Announcer 00:59
You're listening to The Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:12
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists and things that we do the things that we have come up in our field, the ways that we want to spread our messages. And if you're not a therapist, welcome and listen to it from the angle of our intended audience being therapists. Katie is laughing at me because she said that this is an episode where we're not supposed to sound defensive.
Katie Vernoy 01:53
Oh, dear, we're already off track. Thanks, Curt. No, I think this is an episode where you have to be completely transparent like this is this is an episode that we need to do. And I think that there's positive and wonderful things that we need to talk about. And there's some stuff that we might have some feels about to use the language of the young folks today.
Curt Widhalm 02:15
I don't know who you think is the young folks today?
Katie Vernoy 02:19
Fine, fine. Let's move forward.
Curt Widhalm 02:22
All right. We have a lot of new listeners here over the last few months. And we want to thank you for joining us each week. And it's been a while since Katie and I have clarified a lot of things about our podcast, this is maybe an opportunity for some of our new listeners to get to know us in a little bit different way and for our longtime listeners to maybe be able to have a little bit better understanding of what Katie and my process is. And the working title of this episode is. So you want to be a content creator. This is really less of a how to episode and more of a here's the things that have come up in our process that helps us to define how we largely go about things. Now a lot of our listeners who have joined us recently found us through our DSM five episodes, some of our continuing education content. And what we want to do in this episode is kind of talk about what some of the things are that have come up for us as content creators here over the last few months, and how we made some of the decisions that we've made and kind of some of the principles that we do in making our product, something that hopefully all of you enjoy.
Katie Vernoy 03:49
Starting with the principles. I think when we first started and this was way back in 2017, I think the idea was, let's put together a podcast that has conversations that don't typically happen, at least not in public spaces. A lot of therapists, I think, have some of these conversations in the background. But it's not something that is happening in grad school. It's not something that's happening in supervision frequently, and it's kind of the realities, the survival guide tactics of how do we actually navigate this career. And what we've found over the years is that the additional piece is like yeah, we can talk about how to navigate the career but at some point, we become complicit in a broken system. And so we we've been talking about how to balance how do we give the tools to navigate what is and then also give the empowerment and or the validation that advocacy needs to happen. And then each of us can step up in our own ways, whether it's in how we practice individually in our offices, or what we say to our legislators or those kinds of things like how can we advocate true change for our profession, you know, whether it's equity, whether it's pay, whether it's decolonizing, our practices, all of the things that we've wanted to make sure that stay in the forefront, we recognize that it's a hard way to balance because if we completely destroy mental health right now, because it's not working then, there's no mental health. But if we complicitly and complacently stand by and continue to reinforce how it's being done, then we're not making any progress. And so we're trying to walk that line to be able to say, Hey, this is what the profession is, this is how you can navigate it. And this is what we see as a potential future. And let's give you the tools to be able to help us all come together as modern therapists to push towards that new future.
Curt Widhalm 05:45
A lot of what our conversations on the back end have been here over the last month or so has been about a lot of the response that we've had, hearing from some of our audience members directly, following some of the online interpretations and reactions to our DSM-5 update episode where we had Dr. Michael be first as the APA, co author of the DSM-5-TR. And our background conversations between Katie and I have been why did we make the decisions that we made with this particular episode? And how does this fit within a lot of what Katie was just describing as our principals here. And Katie and I have been long involved in a lot of advocacy work, and know that some of the reactions that we've seen the immediate petitions to change the autism diagnostic criteria, based on the information that was presented in that episode, to prevent the DSM-5-TR from having those very changes made. And Katie and my work in advocacy, we knew that that kind of an effort is mis timed, because those books were already published in sitting in warehouses all around the world at that point that understanding some of the advocacy process is very much an important piece of this, that you hear us in a number of our episodes across time talking about advocacy. I don't know that the emphasis on how freaking long things take...
Katie Vernoy 07:33
So long, so long
Curt Widhalm 07:35
...is something that people tend to forget. And there's oftentimes this very reactionary in the moment sort of thing that happens that people lose their enthusiasm, because then there's a next in the moment sort of thing happens. And this is why our principals are so important to us is because it helps us in deciding not only what we address, but how and importantly, when we address them. And if you want to hear in depth kind of discussion about it. We'll link in our show notes over at MTSG podcast about our efforts several years ago to get a mental health professionals organization to make a statement on paying pre licensed therapists a living wage. This is a long term process sort of thing. And I think that this starts to speak into some of the criticisms that we've been hearing about the DSM-5 episode from some of our audience here.
Katie Vernoy 08:37
The other element that I think is important is being able to go into conversations with reasonable expectations of what's going to happen in the conversation. And so there's the timing of the advocacy, but there's also getting a full picture of what the actual situation is. And I know for me, in interviewing Dr. First, I was expecting a lot more pushback on the questions we actually asked around inclusion around the discussions with folks with lived experience, around the limitations of the diagnoses. And the fact that he was willing to engage in those made me very excited. Now, as we had the conversation. There were a few different things that I was trying to pay attention to. And this is I guess, this goes into kind of editing choices as well as kind of the advocacy element of it. I wanted him on record about kind of what his perspective was, what his process was those kinds of things and I know that there was some language that he used, it was pretty cringy, there was a lot of outdated language, there was a little bit of editing to try to soften that for our audience as kind of a protective measure for our audience. But we couldn't edit out the cringiness of this individual. My concern, and this is something I've grappled with. And I, maybe maybe we would do it differently if we interviewed him again tomorrow. But I wanted to hear all of the pieces. I wanted it all on record. And so there were things that he said that I might have called him out on in person. But recognize that was potentially risking getting the next question answered. And the next question answered. It potentially risked the interview not happening, him not being recorded and on record with the things that he ended up saying. And to me, I felt like there was this really push pull on how do we protect our audience? And how do we move forward with the advocacy that needs to happen around this outdated medical model book that we all have to use?
Curt Widhalm 10:51
I think to that point, this is our protection of our audience, is within the scope of Katie and my principles. And I hope that our principles aligned with a lot of yours. But, you know, being very clear to what Katie said earlier, we are about advancing our profession, we are about better pay, we're about better education. And we incorporate a lot of social justice work within that. And it's very informed by a lot of social justice work. To peel back the curtains a little bit on our process. We do edit our podcasts, we aren't as clear as what our finished product is. We've edited...
Katie Vernoy 11:09
Clearly not.
Curt Widhalm 11:12
...we edit out ums and coughs, and we allow our guests to be able to say, Hey, I didn't say that correctly, would you edit that back? Let me restate this in another way. And because we develop relationships with a lot of people who come on this podcast, we're very accommodating of that. And in this particular recording, part of what we consider is, is it important to advocate in this particular moment on something that's informative of our principles, and potentially lose the entire interview in the first place, then it becomes Katie and me pissing off one person and not having a podcast, whereas the 1000s of people who have downloaded, listened to, reacted to, made their own commentary, on what was said, is much more important within the advocacy process than us calling out one particular person at one time.
Katie Vernoy 12:44
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 12:45
We feel that it's a lot more important to be able to hear, again, the very outdated and potentially harmful ideas of people who are in positions of power, much more so than being able to correct them in a moment by moment basis. And this is part of seeing advocacy as a much bigger unfolding process. And I think that a lot of the commentary that we've seen have separated, Katie and me from the comments by Dr. Michael First. But I see that people are also, you know, kind of holding us accountable on this too. And it's very much a stylistic decision. Just because we didn't push back on it doesn't mean that we agree with it. In fact, hopefully, this gives a lot more emphasis to our calls to action that will be coming over the next few months and several years as it leads up to whenever the DSM-6 comes out, of better being able to advocate for who's on these committees and how their processes are because this is information that had that episode just been. Here's the straightforward updates of what's happening. I don't think that would have ever shown up to the light of day.
Katie Vernoy 14:07
Sure. And I think the additional piece, I guess there's more than one piece, but that additional piece to that is I wanted to get to how do people impact this process, and we have him on record talking about that process and how people can take stances and give feedback and all those things. And I also was able to say to him like, hey, yeah, reach out to these lived experience and diagnostic communities to get feedback, like proactively seek it out. And he said, Oh, well, we kind of do that. Actually. That's a good idea. So it's, maybe it's small, but it's still there's things on record that can be used by folks who are advocating with the APA, that who are advocating around some of these changes where it's like, hey, the guy who is running this Committee, said it was a good idea or said this was their process. Here's why this process isn't happening. We need to address it, I mean, I think it's just it's creating a body of evidence. But I do want to go back to kind of our audience and the, and the harmful language. And I want to take that in. I really want to think about that because to me, I, I recognize that there are spots bias, different things that frame what I think is going to be harmful and not harmful. And I and I know we talked about this, Curt, that like the two of us had a larger goal with that that interview. And so I don't want us to lose sight that there were folks who are were harmed by some of the language that Dr. First used. And I'm not sure how to specifically address that. I mean, maybe we put content warnings on on things, you know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure how to do that. I mean, I don't know what what additional thoughts you've had around it, Curt. But I just for me, I feel like there are two things that are happening. And I think we may lean more towards like the let's get stuff done. Let's not worry about the small things in the moment with the larger picture. But for some of the folks that are responding, it didn't feel small, and it wasn't small to them, and it was harmful to them. And I don't know how to I'm gonna be honest, I don't know how to resolve that, given our advocacy efforts and the desire to get someone with that level of power over the next iteration of both the ICD and the DSM on record. And so I'm not sure where to go with that.
Curt Widhalm 16:27
It's been my experience in advocacy, that large systems end up ignoring those individual voices. Those individual voices are incredibly powerful when they're used in the right place at the right time. And it's kind of looking at where our experience is where our tools really are effective in being able to affect these larger systems that when Katie and I have been in congressional offices, when we've been talking to legislators, when we've been talking to professional organizations, those voices, when they're expressed at the right time, are incredibly impactful for humanizing what is happening, working in the macro systems doesn't negate that the micro systems are happening. But for systemic change to happen, we have to address the macro systems in the ways that the macro systems have shown that they can be changed.
Katie Vernoy 17:30
Sure, yeah. And I think that's it goes back to our principles around recognizing that we have to work within if we want to be therapists, right now, we, we must work at least, you know, sufficiently within the system that's created while also trying to disrupt it. And so it's, it's a hard line to walk I know, we're never, we're never going to say we can always do it, right. You know, like we're gonna have times when we we miss judge or miss title. And I think that, that we, you know, when folks have called us out, when we've missed us in the past, we oftentimes do come back and have deeper conversations. And so please keep holding us to account for the things that are happening in the micro system, so to speak. But recognize that you know, that there are times when we may disagree based on the goals we have in the macro system. Does that make sense?
Curt Widhalm 18:20
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 18:21
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 18:22
And I think that this also speaks to what we noticed as content creators, is some of the accountability that people feel like they're holding us to, are things that we actually already do. It's just that...
Katie Vernoy 18:38
Exactly.
Curt Widhalm 18:39
Now, in the aftermath of the DSM-5 episode, one of the comments that I keep coming back to is a one from a deleted now deleted user on Reddit. The comment says, the interview starts talking about autism around minute 13. It's not an in accessible interview, and that it has no transcript or subtitles, so fuck them for that, too. And then, in this post, several people posted links to the episode where the transcripts already existed in the first place. And one of the things that if you're considering going into content creation, helping you potentially avoid some obstacles and these kinds of things, and being clear about your principles, really does help in that. We've been making things accessible for quite a while.
Katie Vernoy 19:30
And we haven't always but it does, there's a cost involved. And we're doing this for free for the most part, you know, we've we've been able to start getting sponsors at different points. But we're not making a whole bunch of money where we can have fancy solutions. And so we've, we took this feedback that people couldn't find the transcripts. And so we've we've added a little solution, so they're easier to find now, but we are both two therapists, we both have our own practices. We do some consulting but like this is not our full time job. And so we're trying, I guess maybe this is where I'm sounding defensive, I'm not trying to, but like, we're doing the best that we can. But I think, to me, when I hear this, I see something where we're trying to make a difference. You know, we're trying to do some stuff to bring some things to light to move things forward. And we're not going to always get it right. But we are a way easier target to get mad at than the large system. So don't wait like don't waste your your energy on calling us out for stuff like not having transcript because we actually do, like use that energy towards the actual change you want and not on two random podcasters.
Curt Widhalm 20:40
And we got several comments in the first week, after directing, you know, emphasis towards are we going to have follow up episodes about the changes in the DSM, we will, it takes some turnaround time for us, especially on something that that book wasn't even available for three weeks after the podcast aired, which was nearly a month after we made the interview, to Katie's point of we're two podcasters. If you want us to be able to do more, here's our pitch to join our Patreon and make it to where we can have a full time job doing this kind of stuff. But in the meantime, our turnaround and response times is sometimes very much around what we're capable of doing around our regular day to day practices and families and all of that kind of stuff. In the past, we've been sometimes able to turn things around literally overnight. That's not something that can necessarily be relied upon, in this particular space for us and until you join our Patreon and wonderful things. It's something we're we absolutely do do our best. It's that we're in a slow moving profession too. Nothing about you know, really anything is going to be best addressed by a podcast on something that needs to happen in an extremely timely manner.
Katie Vernoy 22:13
Sure, and I think to expand out kind of what we're doing as our follow on to the DSM-5 updates is that we've been reaching out to folks in the Autistic community in the grief community in the trans and gender nonconforming community. And as well as people in the trauma community to be able to have in depth conversations with folks with lived experience around, for example, with the Autistic community, we want someone that can talk with us about the diagnosis stuff that's going on to DSM-5-TR but also self diagnosis and, and those types of things. So we can really have a conversation with someone that's living it versus us saying like, yeah, we disagree, you know, or, or we agree with this part, but not that part. I mean, like, we have our own opinions, and we'll share them. But we don't want to be the only voices speaking to this. And it takes time to be able to identify the people or persons, the person or persons that people are people. Yeah, I don't know, to find the right, the right folks to be able to have the real conversation that we need to have, as we've continued forward and our audiences grow we've found it even more important not to just say, like, hey, our friends, so and so is in this community, let's reach out to them, but actually saying like, Who is the person that is making the most noise that has the biggest audience who can actually make a difference in this space, let's amplify that voice on the podcast and whatever way that we can. And so we're still learning, we're still growing. And we don't, we can't... People are not popping on the podcast immediately. Like, everybody's got schedule issues. And and we're we're wanting to have a great conversation versus a fast conversation.
Curt Widhalm 23:51
And, you know, this is hopefully where some of the people that we are reaching out to at this point, we'll be able to build and combine our efforts of this community. And their's to elevate some of this stuff. And hopefully, as we get those things organized and recorded in the upcoming months that you'll be able to see that. So here's also your reminder to subscribe and not miss any of our content. One of the other things within this process, though, is also the way that people have anchored on to very slight aspects of the content that we put out whether it's a specific comment within a larger, longer format, whether it's wanting deeper, more informative things out of what is relatively a smaller format, and what I mean by that is, we also try to make our episodes 30 ish minutes. We sometimes wax poetic most of our episodes, I think ended up around 40 minutes or so but it's an incredibly weird balance. Of people on one hand can take one very, very small piece of what is happening in an episode and make assumptions about the rest of the content or ignore the rest of the content based on that, or on the other hand, we've also had some criticisms of, we don't go deep enough and 30 minutes when it's two or three or four voices, depending on how many people that we have on a particular episode. That goes by very, very fast.
Katie Vernoy 25:30
What and when especially the one that said we didn't go deep enough, I mean, we did respond with like two or three more episodes to discuss the nuance of what was was being asked for. I think, to me, the thing that makes sense, and I want to take full ownership of this, because oftentimes, I'm the one that's titling the episode. And sometimes we're, we're framing the episode in a particular way, because we think that's what's most compelling. And that seems to be another thing that folks will anchor on. And if I've titled without thought, you know, to a specific element, or it's been framed in a certain way, I think folks have difficulty looking at the whole piece. And so I wanted to, I want to say, I have very much been trying to be thoughtful about titles so that people will get a sense of what's actually on the episode. But there's definitely times when people have have responded to the title only, and either decided they would not listen to the episode because the title was not one that they liked. Or they framed the whole episode based on that title and their interpretation of the title. And so I'm working on it, folks, I'm trying to get better Curt usually helps. But like sometimes we're you know, we divide and conquer, so to speak, he does more editing, I do more of the show notes and episode artwork. And so this is a two to four person, maybe five person, little enterprise here. And none of us do this only, like we all have other stuff going on. And so and even life stuff, like we talked about a couple weeks ago, can get in the way of us being able to do stuff, but like, we recognize that sometimes something resonates, and it's hard to look at the whole piece. But before, before taking too drastic an action like giving us a really bad review. Or blasting us on social like try to listen it to it as a holistic piece if you can.
Curt Widhalm 27:28
And it does help and we do respond. She can email Maggie over at podcast@therapyreimagined.com with feedback about stuff and she's not Katie or myself. She's a very wonderful part of our team that, be nice to Maggie. But...
Katie Vernoy 27:43
Yes, please be nice to Maggie.
Curt Widhalm 27:45
But I think it helps to, once again, just kind of clarify the things that we do. It's The Modern Therapist Survival Guide, we want to encourage and help each of you along your journey, and be able to provide some guidance or put some things within perspective or advocate for some things. It's why we've really started moving away from some of the more coachy aspects of our content. We've done some in the past and part of keeping conversations going is not having the same conversations over and over again. And while we're hesitant to say we're never going to have a coach on here, again, or something like that, we do have a back catalogue with plenty of people to talk to you about how to set up a practice. There are plenty of other podcasts who can have that same conversation over and over again. And that's a great space for them to be in. It's not where our space is. Our space is about advocacy, it's talking about the things that are affecting our practices, it's being able to provide timely, hey, here's your surprise, here's the no surprises act, it's it's being able to help channel some of the energy and emphasis of the conversations that we're having to make change, it's being able to take the action steps. If you want cheerleaders of here's how you go and set up your office. Great, not us.
Katie Vernoy 29:30
I think there's like you said there's a lot of back catalogue stuff that has business building and practice building and I am also hesitant to say we won't have a coach on I think the the difference that we want to bring to it is that we want to get into the stuff that's not polished. We want the real conversations, we want this stuff that goes into what it's really like to be a therapist now what it really is to be able to do work and have a private practice and...
Curt Widhalm 30:04
Or work in community mental health. And...
Katie Vernoy 30:07
...well, let me finish my my thought here just really quickly, but like to be able to compete when there's disruptors in the space like BetterHelp, and all of the tech companies that are coming in and dominating the space, to work in community mental health and identify a pathway forward, to have a sustainable career, if that's where you decide to be. I mean, like, there's, there's a lot that is in there, that's not, here are the five steps on how you market your practice. Now, we certainly have episodes like that. But I think, to me, it's more about the reality of the therapist, as a person and a professional. Not, this is how you build your practice. So I don't think we're going to avoid those topics. It's more that we're not going to have the same conversation over and over again, about money mindset, and how you avoid burnout. And how you start a side hustle like, we have those episodes, you can go back and look at them. But we're not going to keep having that conversation over and over again.
Curt Widhalm 31:06
And what we are going to have is, here's the updates as they're coming along in the field. Here's amplifying voices from marginalized communities, whether it's therapists, whether it's the systemic barriers that continue to cause mental health problems, whether it's the systemic barriers to having an appropriate mental health workforce on both an individual and a national and universal level, that at its core, this is a podcast about being able to leave our field in a better place than where it was when we started. And that is going to be an ever evolving conversation. And we're thankful that you're holding us accountable in this process, we just really want to make sure that we're all on the same page so we can actually take these things and make them into change.
Katie Vernoy 32:06
I think that's where we finished. That's a good place to stop. Thanks, Curt.
Curt Widhalm 32:11
We talked about a number of our episodes in the show notes, you can find those at MTSGpodcast.com, as well as all of our back catalogue and we did make some references to Patreon and you can also support us on Buy me a Coffee and very awesome thank you to those people who are patrons and coffee buyers. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 32:39
Thanks again to our sponsor, Thrizer.
Curt Widhalm 32:42
Thrizer is a new billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible and clinicians should earn what they're worth. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From their Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursements quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by cheque, confusion around benefits and obscurity with reimbursement status they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It's very quick to get set up and it works great in complement with EHR systems.
Katie Vernoy 33:21
Their team is super helpful and responsive and the founder is actually a long term therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times. Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit therapy. If you want to test Thrizer completely risk free our very special link is bit.ly/moderntherapists, you sign up for thrice or with the code 'moderntherapists' you will get one month of no payment processing fees meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Curt Widhalm 33:56
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing.
Katie Vernoy 34:01
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the How to Win at Social Media, Even with No Budget course from marketing expert Melissa Forziat. It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn't just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will work you step by step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
Curt Widhalm 34:30
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the 1000s. But to make it accessible to small businesses, it is available for only $247. Plus as a listener of The Modern Therapist Survival Guide. You can use the promo code 'therapy' to get 10% off. If you are ready to go to the next level in your business. Click the link in our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com. And sign that for the How to Win at Social Media course today.
Announcer 35:04
Thank you for listening to The Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
What is Eco Anxiety? An Interview with Dr. Thomas Doherty Curt and Katie interview Dr. Thomas Doherty about Eco Anxiety. We look at the history of eco anxiety, what therapists should know about the environment, the concept of environmental identity, and how we can support clients with Eco Anxiety in therapy. We look at ways to bring these topics up with our clients as well as empower them to take action.
An Interview with Dr. Thomas J. Doherty Thomas is a clinical and environmental psychologist based in Portland, Oregon, USA. His multiple publications on nature and mental health include the groundbreaking paper “The Psychological Impacts of Global Climate Change,” co-authored by Susan Clayton, cited over 700 times. Thomas is a fellow of the American Psychological Association (APA), Past President of the Society for Environmental, Population and Conservation Psychology, and Founding Editor of the academic journal Ecopsychology. Thomas was a member of the APA’s first Task Force on Global Climate Change and founded one of the first environmentally-focused certificate programs for mental health counselors in the US at Lewis & Clark Graduate School. Thomas is originally from Buffalo, New York.
In this podcast episode we talk about what therapists should know about Eco Anxiety In preparation for Earth Day, we wanted to understand more about Eco Anxiety and what therapists can do to support our clients and the planet.
What is Eco Anxiety? * The history of Eco Anxiety, including worry about the use of chemicals, climate change * The importance of words, personal experiences, how the client sees the world * The diagnoses that align with this area, the types of impacts on clients
What Should Therapists Know About the Environment? * Resources related to climate change * How to explore Environmental Identity * Understand our own Environmental Identity * The 3 basic psychological impacts from the environment (disaster, chronic, or ambient) * The benefits of nature and how people in all environments can access them
What is your Environmental Identity?
“Our environmental identity is really all of our values and experiences regarding nature, in the natural world.” – Dr. Thomas Doherty
- Relationship to the natural world
- Significant experiences in the outdoors
- The nuance of bringing these ideas up in Urban areas
- What “nature” means to each of us
“One of the things I tell people is that, around the world, there's millions of people that are working on climate change issues, and all these different areas, and people are studying things, and they're building things. And it's really inspiring to be around some of this stuff. So that's an important message to get out to people it. Yes, it's a big issue. But there's a ton of people working on this, think of all the people even in the Los Angeles area that are going to work every day, on climate and public health.” - Dr. Thomas Doherty
How Can We Support Clients with Eco Anxiety in Therapy? * Understanding the basics on the environment and climate change * Building capacity to be with these issues * Reeling in the anxiety, imagination * Understanding the waves of emotions and completing the anxiety cycle * Giving clients permission to talk about the environment and how to open up the conversations * Coping strategies specific to Eco Anxiety * Suggestions for activism and what clients can do to improve the environment * Helping clients to identify if they are doing enough * Where to find resources on environmental efforts * How therapists can employ climate awareness in their practices
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time!
Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing Today’s episode of The Therapy Reimagined podcast is brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing. Melissa is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources.
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the “How to Win at Social Media (even with no budget!)” course from marketing expert, Melissa Forziat.
It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn’t just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will work you step-by-step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the thousands, but to make it accessible to small businesses, it is available for only $247. PLUS, as a listener of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, you can use promo code THERAPY to get 10% off. So, if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click THIS LINK and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today!
Please note that Therapy Reimagined/The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast is a paid affiliate for Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing, so we will get a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using our link. Thank you in advance!
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Thomas Doherty's Practice Sustainable Self
Climate Change and Happiness Podcast
Dr. Thomas Doherty’s Consultation and Training Program on the Environment
The Psychological Impacts of Global Climate Change by Thomas J. Doherty and Susan Clayton
NY Times: Climate Change Enters the Therapy Room
Climate Psychology Alliance
Project Draw Down
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: What’s New in the DSM-5-TR with Dr. Michael B. First
What You Should Know About Walk and Talk Therapy part 1
What You Should Know About Walk and Talk Therapy part 2 (Law and Ethics)
Shared Traumatic Experiences
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Thrizer.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Thrizer is a modern billing platform for private pay therapists, their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer you can potentially save them hundreds every month with no extra work on your end. The best part is you don't need to give up your rate they charge a standard 3% payment processing fee. By using the link in the show notes, you can get a month of billing without processing fees just to test them out for your clients.
Curt Widhalm 00:30
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Katie Vernoy 00:34
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing
Curt Widhalm 00:39
Melissa Forziat is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources, including the very special course How to Win at Social Media, Even with No Budget. Stay tuned to the end of the episode to learn how you can get the most from social media marketing, even with little to no budget,
Announcer 00:59
You're listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:15
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about literally at this point, just everything that we come across in our practice in our field. After a couple of 100 episodes, we continue to find new areas that we're hearing conversations in the background and wanting to be able to put you our audience in touch with the people who are leading some of these conversations. And as close as we can tie this into Earth Day, we wanted to talk about eco anxiety and those clients presenting with concerns about climate change. And this being an area that we've been aware of for a while but figured we would get somebody who's really, really smart about this. So welcoming to the podcast today Dr. Thomas Doherty, a psychologist up in the Portland area, and with his podcast, also Climate Change and Happiness. We are very happy to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.
Dr. Thomas Doherty 02:25
Thanks, Curt and Katie, I'm glad to be here.
Katie Vernoy 02:28
We are so excited to have you here. And to have this conversation. The first question that we ask everyone is who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 02:38
Yeah, that's a great question for all of us to think about every day, you know, today I'm thinking about being a parent of a parent of a 14 year old and getting her out to school, I have my day, I work from home, mostly these days, because of the pandemic, a lot of my practice has shifted to my home office. And so I'm, and I'm a psychologist and I have most recently been really immersed in this area of environmental identity and people's connections with nature and their concerns about nature and the natural world and climate change. And that is something I've been interested in. But now, you know, the world has caught up to me a little bit on this, and a lot of other people are interested in it too. So it's really, that's kind of where my where my focus is these days and exploring some of these issues.
Curt Widhalm 03:23
So let's start from the basics here and kind of work our way up into some of the bigger ideas. Let's start with defining what is eco anxiety and maybe how that's a little bit different than kind of passing concerns around environmental transition sort of stuff.
Dr. Thomas Doherty 03:40
I'll make a point that we can cycle back to about this because people, we have anxiety when we're concerned about some, you know, we're apprehensive about some potential threat in the future. But you know, there's a saying in therapy, you know, you've heard where we care. And so anxiety is a signal to us. But it's also a signal that we have values and we have things that we care about and things that are important to us, right. And so very quickly into the eco anxiety conversation, I like to pivot to that value piece because it helps to ground people. And we can get to that. But eco anxiety is a term that started by my reckoning, it started to be used in the media around 2007, give or take. And it was originally describing people's concerns around just these kind of insidious environmental issues that we know about that are that are hard to track, like plastics, in the food chain or chemicals, or various kinds of you know, these kind of forever chemicals that are floating around. And it really insidious kind of feeling that that's kind of where that that term first originated in my research of it. And then of course, it's more recently been attached to people's concerns about climate change, and the potential changes that could happen to the environment and other species. So it has It has a history and then it you can go back to say, even people's concerns about nuclear war and during the Cold War, or people's concerns about chemicals in the environment, going back to Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, which was published in the early, early 1960s. So it does have a little bit of a history if you dig this idea of being concerned about the state of the world. But in the last couple of years, it's really been amped up because of the predicted, you know, disasters and events associated with climate change have been happening to people, and they've been happening close to where you live. And we've been seeing this on the news or even personally, experiencing in terms of heat, smoke, fires, severe storms, flooding. And so that's, that's kind of taken this, this kind of general, you know, existential concern that all of us have at one time or another, and really, really amped it up for people.
Katie Vernoy 05:55
It's so interesting, because when you talk about that, I feel like especially for those of us on the West Coast, it feels very present related to the fires. You're up in Portland and I, before we were started, I gotten to Portland a couple of times, and, and I think it's an amazing city. And the first time I really got to explore it, it was under ashes. And air quality was pretty, pretty gnarly. And it was something you know, well, before the pandemic, folks were wearing masks just to try to get through day to day and it, it felt very apocalyptic to be there, the sky is this horrible color, or maybe, you know, in a weird way, a beautiful color, but then there's also just ash raining down and, and to me, it feels very logical to say like, this is going to impact all of us. And for some folks that might impact more dramatically. This this idea that the world is failing is coming to an end that we're destroying the planet. And so what's it mean? Is there is there a kind of subclinical, like, I'm worried and care about the environment? And there's clinical eco anxiety? Like, is there a discernment there, that we can make for our audience?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 07:08
Yeah, I would say so. And it's really neat that we're, we're, you know, the, the listeners are therapists, because we can get into this kind of thing. So a lot of it is, it's really juicy, it's about our meaning, it's about the words that we use, you know, so when I start to when I start to talk to people, I'm immediately being very observant to what they what their language is, what their personal experiences are, you know, even using terms like apocalyptic and stuff like that, it gives us a clue to how we're seeing things, right. And then there's that people, I have some control over my words, and I have some control over what language I use. And so they immediately were, were started, just like any other kind of therapeutic issue, whatever, whatever it happens to be, we're just really listening for the narrative, you know, and therapists, of course, themselves have been influenced by this as well. So that's also been a tripping point is that the last couple of years therapists themselves have been, they're human, and they're, they live in Portland, or whatever. And they're dealing with the smoke and the heat. So they're going through it also. So all the therapists that were listening, that are listening are going through this as well. So we're not sheltered from this, there's no special eco anxiety diagnosis, as you know, there's, and I know you were talking to DSM experts. And so it's really touchy about, you know, what's in the DSM. And there's really important rules about diagnostic categories are made. So what we're dealing with is, and we don't need a new diagnosis, we we have the tools, we can diagnose someone's feelings of depression, or anxiety or trauma, with quite amply with existing DSM. And so anxiety is a normal emotion, we all feel it, it's a healthy, useful emotion we were, that's how humans survive, we, you know, anxiety keeps us alive. And also we have social anxiety and different other kinds of anxiety about our performance, and how we fit in with our tribe of people and all that sort of stuff. So, so we have to remind ourselves that anxiety is normal and some anxiety about the future. And there's so many things to be anxious about in the, in the, in our global interconnected world, all of us sit with some anxieties, from time to time, that's quite normal. And it helps us to be the best people that we can be like with any other kind of anxiety issue. To me, there's three levels, there's normal feelings, there's adjustment level problems, that would be kind of adjustment disorder level. And then there are, you know, more diagnostic problems, like, like someone might meet criteria for an anxiety disorder. So if someone's concerns about the environment are affecting significantly affecting their sleep, or their diet or their relationships or their work or going to school, you know, if there's that significant impact on activities of life, then, you know, if the patient or client is, is amenable to that, I mean, that's, that's, we can use that label to help them. Yeah. So, and I think our goal is to allow I think a lot of people myself maybe yourselves as well, we all of us will move into that adjustment disorder category from time to time, you know, in the sense of wow, we're really needing to do some extra work to adjust to this stressor that we have. And it could, it could be temporarily affecting our sleep or things like that. So that part of the goal is to keep people in the adjustment. And, you know, keeping them toward health, and helping them to not fall into the deeper diagnostic issues.
Curt Widhalm 10:25
I'll maybe for spicing this up a bit come at this from more of the alarmist side then, you know, this seems to be, you know, following all of the climate predictions, everything else seems to be getting worse and worse. And in managing some of these conversations with our clients, we're going through this too. And it's, it feels like it's so much bigger than what any one of us individuals can do. And it seems like a lot of us are managing these conversations, it's just kind of like well, put your head down and hope for the best and focus on the positives. But I'm imagining that that is not the only things that we should be doing here.
Dr. Thomas Doherty 11:08
Yeah, yeah, it is. And that's part of it is bearing witness to this, you know, it is scary, it is overwhelming, I will go through moments of overwhelm, too, I mean, and it, it's a paradox, the more you know, ignorance is bliss. And if you don't know much about this, you don't, it's not concerning you, because some of these things are far away, for you don't necessarily have to link, you know, weather changes to the climate. So certain people are more vulnerable. Even traditionally, people have been more vulnerable people that are environmentally minded, in general, people that are environmental professionals, or conservation professionals, or teachers or scientists, public health people, you know, so those people have been vunerable are more vulnerable, because they know a lot, putting your head down for a moment is fine, you know, that's okay. But, you know, it's about building capacity, you know, it's about building capacity to be with these issues, you know, some basic kinds of cognitive behavioral and other kinds of therapy techniques are helpful about just helping people to, to kind of grade what is the true danger today, like, how are things going right? Today, when you walk outside your door, it just keeping you know, getting people into the present moment, helping people to be more mindful, essentially reeling in, reeling in the anxiety, I say, you know, your your horses are going to one of my chair therapy sayings is that your horses are going to ride like you, if I My imagination is going to go on, on anything, just don't, your horses are gonna ride, but just don't ride them, you know, so let your imagination is going to do what it's going to do. But let's come back to the present moment. And so I feel like there's a wave function here where people get really stressed, and we kind of help just pull it together, build some capacity to take in a little more. And then, you know, so this ride, you know, there's this kind of despair, empowerment curve that happens in environmental work in general. But in any kind of important work, you know, you're trying to write a novel or anything, you're gonna go through periods where you're up in periods where you're down. And so it's helping people just to get into that little longer flow. But not sugarcoating it either. I mean, that's not helpful. It is, it is scary, and it is dangerous. And ultimately, people do need to find a way to take some action, you know, because that's the way to complete the anxiety cycle is, is to take some action. So so it gets really existential gets political, we need to be like really upfront about all that.
Katie Vernoy 13:27
You said that folks who don't know kind of can keep their heads down or not even know they need to keep their heads down, that that kind of ignorance is bliss.
Dr. Thomas Doherty 13:36
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 13:37
And it feels like in, in these times, therapists can't be ignorant to these issues, because so many folks who are walking into our doors or are opening up our virtual office windows, I think that they are worried about these things. And so what do you think are the basics that all therapists should know about this?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 14:00
Yeah, yeah. And it is becoming it is becoming a competency, right, either a sub competency that everybody needs to know a little bit about and then some people are choosing to, to make this more of a subspecialty we're just in the new territory for that. I mean, I do a training program like a 10 week, Zoom based program for therapists, eco and climate conscious therapists that I've been doing, I started last fall and I'm into my third round of doing that. And then I have people I have therapists in from around the US and also from Canada and Australia and England and Germany. And so people are reaching out to me about that. And they are because there are very few resources. There's the climate psychology alliance in the US and in the UK, and they're they're really working hard to try to bring things together so it's it's not a it's not a barren territory. There's there's things happening, but it's it's still new. And so what should all therapists know? That's a good question. On the positive side, I think the most positive thing, and the thing that I tend to go to with clients is this idea that I mentioned earlier of environmental identity, right. So this is an idea that really is, is, is, is ready for primetime, it's the sense that we have it, all of us have an identity in relation to nature in the natural world, how we see ourselves in relation to nature and other species and places, it's similar to our other kinds of identity, like our gender identity, or cultural identity, or sexual identity, these kinds of identities, we need to give people some information about them, so they can think about them and articulate them, and then kind of take pride in them and, and enact them, right. And so our environmental identity is really all of our values and experiences regarding nature, in the natural world. Climate change, and environmental issues really, really threaten some of that to us. And, and one of the big problems in the modern world, you know, is that people haven't been, unless they're sort of Environmental Studies student or nature writer, or, you know, an outdoor educator or something very few people have been taught to really get clear on their environmental identity, we pick it up, and it's kind of tacit, and it's kind of in us and we could either of you, we could talk about your your significant experiences, you know, whether someone's an urban person or a rural person, or they have done outdoor, they feel comfortable doing outdoor camping, or they have pets, or they have connection with other species, it's everybody's story is slightly different. But you know, that that's the value. And that's the base where we would then take action in the future to be the person we want to be. So as you know, I think, hoping that all therapists can help people to help clarify their environmental identity, why is this important to you? Where did you come from? What does it mean to you? And this becomes a base that you can get really strong on. And then I think it calms people down and it says, Okay, this is this is a real thing. This is part of mean, this is why I'm concerned, and some of that free floating anxiety will come down. And so that's, that's one, that's one piece. The other the other piece, I would say is there's three basic impacts from mental health, mental health impacts of climate change that people should be aware of. The first one is kind of obvious as disaster impacts when you're really affected by a specific situation, like a heatwave, or, or fires or any kind of thing. And there's a whole range of, you know, disaster psychology research and Mental Health First Aid and things like that, that you can, you can learn about. The second is the more chronic impacts, which would be being displaced, like being a climate, refugee, chronic chronic economic problems, you know, things that last a long time and then are that aren't easily solved. And then that immediately dovetails with all environmental justice issues, and people's placement and things like that. So it brings in, you know, social environmental, justice, focus. And then the third category is the, the kind of ambient impacts the subjective emotional impacts of just watching things from afar. And depending on where you are, as a therapist, you might find clients in any of those boxes, or multiple boxes. And so the approach is slightly different.
Curt Widhalm 18:05
And you've written an article on this it for American Psychologists that will link in the show notes that goes into those features a lot more deeply than here in a minute on our podcast here. I want to go back to your first point that you were just talking about, in Katie and I both have practices in very urban settings, that Los Angeles, we end up with a few people who really have some access to some of the greater outdoor activities that we have around here. But how do you bring these conversations up to clients who maybe not quite verbalizing some of their relationship to the environment yet?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 18:48
Yeah, that's a good point. And, and that's, that brings up the larger question of how to bring these ideas up in general. And so, you know, like, with any other kind of focus that someone has, therapeutically, we have to give signals about what we're doing. Because, you know, this isn't about necessarily putting something on someone, you know, clients come in for a service. And so we want to help them solve their problems, people that I work with, you know, I know in the, in the, in the branding of my my practice, sustainable self, and I talk, they know a bit about my work, and I've done teaching and research so people already come in, or are drawn to me because Because of this, and it actually, you know, so it's important, I think, for therapists to have multiple levels of signaling, like say, if you want to work in this area, put it on your website or your or your, your materials that this is an area that I'm interested in, and that gives people permission because people don't necessarily know they can talk about this kind of stuff. You know, I say one of my another one of my therapy sayings is we have issues and we have Issues so it's, you know, capital I issues like the big things we want to take on in the world and concerns about justice or climate change, or you know, whatever our destiny is to that we're working on. And then we have our lowercase I issues, which is our baggage, our neuroses, our weaknesses, our, you know, traumas and things like that. And so, you know, being clear, we're open to both of those things like Yes. What do you want to achieve in the world? But also how what's what's what's holding you back? And what are some of your issues because they they're kind of related together. And so to come back to your thing about your, your question about nature, there's a lot of consciousness raising, and a lot of sort of psychoeducation, you could do in this area, because again, a lot of people haven't really study this or broken this out. And so even the term nature, you know, the way I think about it, at least from my, you know, work and in broader areas of environmental psychology is nature's is a big term, that means a lot of things to a lot of people. And there's practically in our lives, there's a spectrum of nature, connections from indoor nature, like plants, and even virtual nature, like artwork and things like that, but you know, plants and pads, and then there's nearby nature, which is parks and gardens and green spaces, and, and then there's more, you know, manage nature, like forests and seashore and then there's, you know, wild or perceived wild, there's, there's a whole spectrum. So you can be living in Manhattan, and still be part of that spectrum of nature. And arguably, I would say, many of your clients have a lot of nature around in their lives, but it might be more of that indoor nature in terms of plants and paths, or their imagery and their art or their nearby nature, like their parks or gardens and green spaces. And so there's, and you get benefits, you know, another doorway here is just talking about all the health benefits of connecting in in safe, you know, outdoor green spaces in terms of stress reduction, and in terms of mental restoration, and creativity, educating people, and then they become more empowered to say, oh, okay, I can claim some of this for myself, because, you know, sometimes urban people feel like, Oh, I can't be that, I can't be that eco person, or I can't be that outdoor person, I didn't grow up doing that, or I don't feel comfortable, you know, camping. And so then they, they, they cut themselves off from from the switch. But that's not necessary. There's a space for everybody. So and then this grades, just generally into basic self care.
Katie Vernoy 22:07
When we look at folks with different levels of connection to nature, or different types of of environmental identities, it to me, it feels like the the conversation saying like, this is how you would have the conversation seems a little bit daunting, because there's such a different experience we all have. And and I guess the question that lends to me is for folks who men or their big I issue is not related to the environment, are we missing something, if we don't introduce the topic?
22:41
It is daunting. I mean, some of these issues are politicized. And we have to kind of be aware of, you know, the culture of who we're working with, and things like that. But I find over time, that, you know, when I open this up in a general way, people, what I actually find is when you when you start to scratch the surface on this, people often have a lot to talk about, around all of these issues, because they just don't, they have very little opportunity to speculate or talk about any of these kinds of things. One of my environmental identity exercises, like just a simple lifetime line, and just from birth to the present, what are significant experiences in nature, the natural world or paths or things like that, and that opens up all kinds of all kinds of things. But, you know, I think one way to bring up the environmental identity piece is just again, in terms of general discussion of other kinds of identities that people have, you know, so, you know, in my work, I help people think about all different kinds of identities, they have their, their cultural identity, their gender identity, or sexual identity, their environmental identity, how they think about nature and natural when you could just add that in there as part of the suite of things. That's, that's a kind of a fairly benign way to just put that out on the table. Or when someone is concerned about, you know, or if they're, if there is a environmental stressor that's happening, like heat, or smoke, or some sort of issue happening regionally, someone can say, well, these kind of outdoor stressors sometimes affect our identity and who we are and our and our values. And is that happening for you? And I can guarantee you if you'd ask people that in Portland, during that, when the ash were falling, there would be a lot to talk about there. Oh, yeah. And so having that in our tool belt, had all therapists having that in their tool belt was really helpful. And then of course, for the therapists themselves as part of their life as well because they have their own environmental identity and that in like with a lot of things, like in the work that I do with therapists when we're doing this training, I lead them through their own environmental identity They do all the exercises themselves, and it's really rich and really fun and people get really into it, but you know, it's like doing your own work essentially, like in any other kind of therapeutic issue, you you push your own boundaries and see what what affects you doing a family tree diagram but having an environmental identity family tree so you think about all The environmental identity of all the people in the family through your parents and your siblings and your grandparents and the generations, people get really wow, that's this is really neat. I never thought about this. And I know we're talking about the anxiety and coping, but it's also it's also a growth opportunity. And I think therapists are particularly well positioned for that, that growth opportunity aspect.
Katie Vernoy 25:22
And I was thinking even, you know, when you're, when you're opening that up, and someone does say, yeah, it freaks me out. I don't like to think about it, you know, the world is dying. And you know, and I'd rather just focus on X, you know, how do you address that? Because I think that there are folks, it feels daunting, and maybe this is me needing to do my own work, but it feels very daunting to think about a planet dying. And, and or becoming uninhabitable. Maybe that's a more accurate way to talk about it at this point. But it's something we're that's, that's overwhelming. That's, you know, there's there, it feels like there may not be ready at hand solutions, and and the advocacy efforts seems like that could be helpful. You said kind of those types of things, but I guess I'm just searching for, where do these conversations go, when you identify that someone is really freaking out, because there's ash falling from the sky, or the levees have broken? Or, you know, their house was burned down? You know, like, it seems like some of this stuff, you know, if we if we move away from the crisis, you know, like disaster and direct effects to the more indirect effects, like, how do we have these conversations in a productive way?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 26:33
Yeah, well, obviously, if someone's going through a true disaster than we we're, then we're really in disaster mental health territory was really about affecting, helping people with activities of daily life, like, how are you doing in terms of, do you have food? And where are you sleeping and clothes. And so that's, that's kind of that red cross level of work. And some of it is it is basic sort of trauma work. So you could have, you know, really, for a lot of just stabilizing, you know, mindfulness and relaxation, and really helping people to get stabilized, and all that sort of stuff. I mean, one of the things I tell people is that, you know, once you get into this work far enough, you also start to meet all kinds of neat people that are doing all kinds of things. And there's 1000s, or millions of people. I mean, around the world, there's millions of people that are working on climate change issues, and all these different areas, and people are studying things, and they're building things. And it's really, there, it's really inspiring to be around some of this stuff. So that's an important message to get out to people it. Yes, it's a big issue. But there's a ton of people working on this, think of all the people even in the Los Angeles area that are going to work every day, on climate and public health and things like that. And so that's important. You know, one of my images is this, I call it the upside down pyramid. And people get really upside down, it's like this pyramid is like over the top of them pointing at them. And they have very little resources in this, the scope of the issue seems so huge, they just are crushed. And just naming that as an experiential thing that we feel that is important. Because that's validating for people. But then we say, You know what the reframe is, let's flip that pyramid on the ground. And let's put it on a base. And let's stand next to the base, like what do you need to do every day to take care of yourself? So it brings the conversation back to basic self care, what are the bricks in your foundation, diet, sleep, exercise, your family, your work? And let's focus on that. And let's build some organic energy. So you can work on some of these issues, you know, some of it is, that's a kind of a stabilizing thing that I would do. And a big culprit here is media use and media intake, people get really immersed in the news. And of course, with the pandemic, and with the war in Ukraine, there's so many things out there that are troubling, and that there's nothing wrong with being an informed person. There's nothing inherently wrong with news media in itself, but it's the overwhelming immersion in it that really, really affects people's nervous system. So I'll often say let's, let's do a bit of a news. Let's look at your news diet, because it's usually lurking there. And let's let's let's think about where you went where and how and when you're accessing news, particularly digital news, news on your phone. And, you know, like, Henry David Thoreau would have said, you know, a few 100 years ago, you know, like, the news is your life like that, like go outside the door. And that's the news. So I help also help people to get into more into their daily life and pulled out of the news and that, that will very quickly help help our nervous system to change a little bit. So some of that, that overwhelming, apocalyptic thing is kind of a perception that happens when we're really jacked up and have a stress and a fight or flight response. And so, these are truth threats and we don't want to again sugarcoat things, but our perception of them can really change, if we can kind of pull ourselves together and come down into the present moment. So it is it is, again, it's this, this this process, and it's engaging, you know, bearing witness and sitting through it, when people are really, you know, really impacted we have we feel it, you know, so there's, we have to take care of ourselves well, because then we get the compassion fatigue kind of issue that can happen as well.
Curt Widhalm 30:29
Moving beyond the individual that, you know, a lot of what we look at systemically is individual reactions to systemic problems. I'm sure that there are clients that want to get involved in more activism type things that help to take this on in a broader way. What kinds of things do you find yourself suggesting to clients is maybe taking this beyond kind of their own individual reactions to the world going on around them?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 31:00
Yeah, and that's a huge piece, because we get so many messages to do action and to take to take action and people feel, you know, again, people are like climate hostages, I say, because we're in this big system, but we really can't affect what the US Senate does, or what corporations do. And so it does feel people are trapped. But it does feel good to take action. And so it really it really, it's kind of a bespoke kind of custom approach to each person, like, who are you? Where are you? What, what kind of actions would you do? Where are you placed so it really becomes a conversation. You know, there's a front line there of direct action, you know, terms on picket lines around the protest lines, and there's about behind the lines, where people are doing all kinds of other things, websites, and fundraising and research and helping the community. And so it really freeing people up to say, Well, where do you fit on that spectrum? And what what are you drawn to? What are you curious about some of it is education, like, you know, we might just need you're curious about a certain area, well, then maybe just educating yourself about it, it's, it's kind of, beyond the kind of simplistic, you know, these are 10 things you can do for the environment, you know, helping people to find something that's, you know, authentic to themselves, they can do for a while that fits into their, their gift. And then there are, there's, there is a basic sense of sustainability, that's good for therapists to know, it is, you know, making major life changes about how you get your power in your home, or how many cars that you own, or your diet, or how many children you have, these are the big ticket items that do do affect our carbon footprint. And so trying to, you know, just educate people, they can make their own choices, obviously, and it's not that easy to say, install solar panels on your house or do whatever, because it depends on how much money people have, and whatever. So we don't want to shame people or guilt people. But we do want to give them some good information. So if you do want to make changes, you know, your light bulbs are less important than whether you have an efficient water heater, you know, that kind of thing. So there are some basic sort of sustainability, things to know about. But in terms of the climate, that's a large, it's a life thing, like in all of our life. For the rest of our lives, climate change is going to be an issue. So it's like engaging with something like poverty or injustice, it's something that we're going to we can engage with in various ways through our life. And when people are younger, they might be more on the frontline. You know, when you want to encourage people we need, we need people on the front line. And if you're a frontline person, let's let's get you there. I was a frontline person when I was younger, now I'm a parent and I'm more of doing other things. So you know, it's going to there's a you know, if we have future conversations, we there's a whole developmental thing here we can think about what elders and adults and parents that's a whole nother that's another lens to lay over this kind of thing that therapists are really good at. But in the short run the the the action is something that it's authentic for you. And you might already be doing enough. You know, you if you're a parent and you're working, you might be doing enough, you know, that's the other message to give people ultimately, in a good in a good world, experts in government are going to be dealing with this kind of stuff, not your average person. So that's where we're trying to go go with this as well. So I do want to liberate people a little bit to say, you know, you don't you might be doing enough right now. And that could be that might be important for people to hear.
Katie Vernoy 34:34
To that point. I think there's kind of an implied knowledge that I don't know that I have exactly, and maybe you can direct me specifically to some reputable resources. But as far as you know, kind of the basic sustainability those types of things are there go to resources that you would recommend to make sure to kind of do a self assessment around basic sustainability.
Dr. Thomas Doherty 35:01
That's a good question. The first place I think about in broad terms is Project Drawdown, which is a organization and an linkages of a bunch of people that are really working on, you know, a comprehensive approach to climate change. And the Drawdown website is just a wealth of information, it can be a bit, you know, there's a lot of different areas there. But if you really want to kind of see a comprehensive approach to climate change across society, in different areas, and styles, that's, that's the kind of the place to go. And it's also can be actually inspiring to see all the things that people are doing, I think, each state, if you look at each, each state, I mean, in terms of state departments, you know, the sustainability county, city, I think that's also a good place, you know, check out what's happening in your region, because then it makes it more local. So whatever town like, you know, because I think that's, that's a place where you can start say, Oh, wow, this is my, my territory, and people are working. So that's, that has a social aspect to it as well.
Curt Widhalm 36:06
Any last suggestions as far as ways that therapists can incorporate more climate awareness in their practices with their clients?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 36:16
Yeah, I think as therapists, again, all of you, you've both been therapists, for all the people that are listening, you know, if you've practiced enough new things come onto the scene, and we learn about them, you learn about new therapy modalities, you learn about how to do how to work with different kinds of clients. And so I would encourage therapists to just make space in their repertoire, to start bringing these and just experiment with it. It's not, it's okay to ask some of these questions and do some learning and practice. And so I think that's probably the as therapist, I think, are careful. And they don't want to work outside of their comfort zone or outside of their competency. And so that sometimes holds the field back, I think, from doing innovative things. And so I would encourage therapists to surface some of these questions in their work and share selectively maybe some self disclosure about what they're doing. And just experiment and just see which clients it lands for. Because it could open up some, it could open up some interesting conversations, you'd be surprised. And if people have other things they're focused on, and this, you know, environmental climate isn't the thing, that's perfectly fine, too. But I'd encourage people to experiment with this, because therapists have all these tools to bear, they don't have to learn a lot of new stuff. If you already know how to help people with anxiety about work and social anxiety you can, you can also help people with their anxiety around environmental and climate issues as well. So I'd encourage people to just to add, add a line in their repertoire about this and to see, see what happens.
Curt Widhalm 37:46
This doesn't have to be in your face sort of stuff. One of the things that I appreciate from your website is even putting things like bus lines that are close enough to your office that are accessible for people that can be front of mind sort of things that this does not have to be necessarily explicitly thrown at every single client. But even just kind of when you're considering this. I mean, no, not every office location is going to have these kinds of things. But ways of just kind of also leading by example seems to be right.
Dr. Thomas Doherty 38:19
Yeah. And Curt, that you're speaking to sort of like a green business, and so we can think about our practices as a business. And is it? Is it a sustainable business? Is that a green business? And so that's another angle for therapists, even if they're, even if they're dealing with another specialty, you know, maybe they're dealing with pediatric mental health issues, or ADHD or whatever that isn't it is, but doesn't, it doesn't mean they still can't think of their life, their own lifestyle, their own practice in a sustainable manner as well.
Katie Vernoy 38:50
Thank you so much. This has been really, really helpful, a great conversation that I feel like we've just started, where can people find you and learn more about the work that you're doing?
Dr. Thomas Doherty 38:59
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Katie. I really appreciate the conversation too. Well, people can find me, my my website, selfsustained.com. And my podcast is climatechangeandhappiness.com. And if therapists are interested in some of the training that I'm doing, you can find information about my consultation groups at selfsustained.com. This is an adventure things are going to be growing and changing. Even this year, I'm looking at the different writing and different kinds of ways to maybe do groups that can reach people outside of my region. So yeah, please seek me out and I'd be happy to happy to chat with people.
Curt Widhalm 39:40
And we will include links to those in our show notes. You can find those over at mtsgpodcast.com. And please also follow us on our social media, join our Facebook group, The Modern Therapist Group to continue this conversation and share ways that you are addressing this in your practices as well, and until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Thomas Doherty.
Katie Vernoy 40:05
Thanks again to our sponsor Thrizer.
Curt Widhalm 40:07
Thrizer is a new billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible and clinicians should earn what they are worth every time you build a client through Thrizer. An insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the clients insurance from their Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursements quickly directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by cheque confusion around benefits and obscurity with reimbursement status. They allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It's very quick to get set up and it works great in complement with EHR systems.
Katie Vernoy 40:47
Their team is super helpful and responsive and the founder is actually a long term therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times. Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention, money won't be the reason they quit therapy. If you want to test Thrizer completely risk free our very special link is bit.ly/moderntherapists. You sign up for Thrizer with the code moderntherapists you will get one month of no payment processing fees meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Curt Widhalm 41:22
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing.
Katie Vernoy 41:28
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the How to Win at Social Media, Even with No Budget course from marketing expert Melissa Forziat. It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn't just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will walk you step by step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
Curt Widhalm 41:56
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the 1000s. But to make it accessible to small businesses it is available for only $247. Plus, as a listener of The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide you can use the promo code therapy to get 10% off. So if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click the link in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today.
Announcer 42:29
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Therapists Are Not Robots: How We Can Show Humanity in the Room Curt and Katie discuss how big life events (a big diagnosis, a huge personal loss, injuries and medical conditions) can show up in the room. We explore how much humanity is okay to share with our clients. How do we decide what we tell our clients (and how do we manage their reactions)? We also look at how we take care of ourselves while also taking care of our clients. Therapists aren't robots, but we certainly need to be aware of our clients when life happens.
In this podcast episode we talk about appropriate self-disclosure practices for modern therapists going through life events As therapists it’s important that we hold a professional exterior during therapy. But can it be helpful to share with clients the big moments in our lives? How can we be human in the room?
What are some considerations for therapists when deciding to self-disclose? * Showing your humanity can help bond a client with the therapist. * Self-disclosure may be different for planned or unplanned life events and whether they come into the room or private/hidden and in the background of your life * Deciding when and whether to tell clients * Clients often will use the therapist as an example on how to handle big life events. * Not all settings are appropriate for therapist disclosure. * Clients do not have the same confidentiality requirements as therapists; if you self-disclose to a client, it could be known by others or other treatment team members. * In self-disclosing, the therapist will need to process the disclosure with the client. * Processing difficult personal material with multiple clients could be difficult for the therapist. * How much you disclose will depend on the client, but you might share more with a long-term client than a newer client.
“In evaluating both the psychotherapy relationship and the actual relationship you have; I’d guess you’d probably be looking at some of the clients and how long you working with them as a part of the decision-making process. If it’s a brand-new client, it’s probably not a great thing to say ‘hey I’m going through this super emotional and vulnerable thing on my own right now.’ It’s a lot different if this is a long-term client you’ve been with for several years”
- Curt Widhalm
Are there ethical considerations for therapists sharing about our lives? * There are no BBS outlined ethical considerations for sharing personal disclosures in therapy. * The therapeutic environment should encourage a client to question the therapist. * The therapeutic environment should encourage clients to participate in self-advocacy. * Remember that certain self-disclosures might be triggering for clients; be mindful of what you share with who. * Document all ruptures in relationships in your note and what you did to help heal the rupture. * Be mindful - clients could be retraumatized or try to care take after a therapist’s disclosure. * Not all clients need to know everything; know your population.
“We harm the client if we don’t acknowledge, we don’t apologize, we don’t repair. If we try to pretend something didn’t happen, that’s where we can get into trouble and that’s when we get in trouble.” – Katie Vernoy
What should new counselors and therapists know? * Therapists are human! Life will continue to affect you even while working. * It is important for therapists to take time off when they need it. * Ruptures in the therapeutic relationship will happen; it’s all about how you handle it. * New counselors often want hard rules for how to act, but it gets easier with experience. * The most damage happens from not acknowledging or apologizing for ruptures. * When ruptures occur, be honest and accountable to your clients. * Sharing our human moments with clients can create a deeper and richer relationship. * Don’t forget you don’t have to do this alone – always consult if unsure on disclosures!
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using THIS LINK if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time!
Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing Today’s episode of The Therapy Reimagined podcast is brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing. Melissa is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources.
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the “How to Win at Social Media (even with no budget!)” course from marketing expert, Melissa Forziat.
It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn’t just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will work you step-by-step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the thousands, but to make it accessible to small businesses, it is available for only $247. PLUS, as a listener of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, you can use promo code THERAPY to get 10% off. So, if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click THIS LINK and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today!
Please note that Therapy Reimagined/The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast is a paid affiliate for Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing, so we will get a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using our link. Thank you in advance!
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Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Struggles of the Novice Counselor and Therapist by Thomas M. Skovholt and Michael H. Rønnestad
Abstract: Shared Trauma: The Therapist’s Increased Vulnerability by Dr. Karen W. Saakvitne
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Impaired Therapists
When is it Discrimination?
Navigating Pregnancy as a Therapist
Infertility and Pregnancy Loss
Document Every F*cking Thing
Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understand, and Social Justice: An Interview with James Guay, LMFT
Walk & Talk and Other Non-Traditional Therapy Settings: Part One
Walk & Talk and Other Non-Traditional Therapy Settings: Part Two
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Katie Vernoy 00:00
Thrizer is a modern billing platform for private pay therapists, their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer you can potentially save them hundreds every month with no extra work on your end. The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee. By using the link in the show notes, you can get a month of billing without processing fees just to test them out for your clients.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Katie Vernoy 00:30
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing
Curt Widhalm 00:35
Melissa Forziat is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources, including the very special course How to Win at Social Media, Even With No Budget. Stay tuned to the end of the episode to learn how you can get the most from social media marketing, even with little to no budget.
Announcer 00:55
You're listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:08
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapists for therapists the things that we do how we are in the world. And today's episode is about our humanity, of the things that come up in our personal lives that may end up affecting the things that we relate to clients. And we've touched on this in a number of episodes before but potentially having a little bit more nuanced conversation here today. This is a topic that's been discussed in the literature for quite a while. And Katie and I have heard varying pieces of advice, we've given different advice. And I think that we're going to summarize this a little bit later in the episode. As we're going into this, Katie when you think of humanity, at least from the therapist side, what comes up for you?
Katie Vernoy 02:12
A lot of things come up. I mean, when I first started as a clinician, I talked with a supervisor about some of this stuff about being a human about things that come up. And at one point I was I was having physical ailments, that meant that there were times I may not be able to stay present in the session, and even in talking about how to manage that, you know, I'm sorry, I got to quickly take care of something and another room, you know, whatever it was there always felt like and this was obviously like 20 years ago, there was always this thing of trying to hide anything that might be bothering me physically wrong with me anything that was happening to me and so I have that element of it, which is like okay, you know, the the training on the blank slate and and being completely neutral in session, which we've talked about a million times around, that that's just can't exist. And we'll we'll link to a lot of these episodes in the show notes. But then I also reflect on how much time I spent in kind of mileu settings at client's homes. We even talked about some of this in the non traditional therapy settings episodes related to walking and falling down or having some of those situations. And so to me, being someone who's had life happen over the last 20 years, and we'll talk about some recent stuff as well, as well as someone who's got physical ailments. And is just super clumsy. I show up as me in session all the time. And that's not something that I can hide. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation today. Because I think it's something where a lot of therapists struggle with sorting through how much humanity can they bring into the room or into the relationship and I something, I feel like I've managed until recently, and I feel like I'm grappling with it again. And so it's a tough one.
Curt Widhalm 04:18
The framework that we're gonna follow here in our episode is from an article from apaservices.org, called occupational vulnerability for psychologists. This was prepared by Karen Saakvitne, I'm hoping that I pronounced that right. And this is from 2008. I think it holds up still pretty well. And speaking to some of the nuance of we're humans in this fields that we are going to have like things that come up things that are going to affect our work, things that are going to affect ourselves and potentially impact our clients. This is a proposed framework that looks at a lot of different dynamic factors that I think it helps to maybe frame this, as I think a lot of the advice that we get early on in our career is, err towards that blank slate side.
Katie Vernoy 05:19
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 05:20
And it's potentially because there's maybe a belief that new therapists don't know what they're doing. And therefore, they're safer advice in not risking sharing too much in order to not put an emotional load onto clients. I'm also going to make a suggestion that there's probably some patriarchal gender bias in that that a lot of theories and stuff are based out of men who are socialized to not share a lot of emotions, that having even more straightforward rules of not sharing things. And it doesn't surprise me that potentially over the last 30 or so years, as the demographics of our field have shifted, that the conversation around this has shifted. And, and I think that it's probably more likely that those who practice in settings like Katie was describing those who practice for more humanistic models or social justice oriented models might be more open to sharing things. First and foremost, I think that we have to talk about you as the individual, and you as the individual therapist, and that's what's outlined first here in this APA article, we each have our own personal histories. And that is going to affect a lot of things, it's going to affect our choice of where to work, the clients that we work with how we work. And part of it's really just taking ownership of yourself first.
Katie Vernoy 06:54
When when we're talking about our personal histories, I think they're the things that we're still working on and need to be aware of, and continue to show up for ourselves, whether it's in our own therapy or in other things, there are things that are in our personal history, or part of who we are now, that may may may lead us to be impaired. And we have a whole episode on impaired therapist, so I won't go there. But there's that argument that some folks have that if we can't be perfectly healed, we shouldn't work with any clients. And I think that we can still be impacted by our personal histories and work with our clients.
Curt Widhalm 07:31
Sure.
Katie Vernoy 07:32
The nuance is determining does that impact which clients you take? So some of it may be about whether or not we can kind of curate our clients to be able to support who we are competently, confidently able to work with? We go into some of that nuance in Is it Discrimination that episode as well. But to me, I think that acknowledging and being very aware of ourselves, helps us with some of this personal history stuff.
Curt Widhalm 08:00
This takes a lot of our own internal process in order to get to that point. And I think that, you know, this is something where we are not as a field, very good at encouraging emotional discussion, from therapists from, you know, trainees from supervisees, that if you over share in therapy, then or in supervision, then you're going to be seen as not predictable enough. But if you under prepared, then, you know, you're at least going to be towards that blank slate end of things. And that's at least going to make things nice for clients. But how often do we hear from each other and from our audience as far as just like, oh, some of those vulnerability sort of things are what actually humanized you and made me want to work with you more. There's such a gatekeeping process around emotions just that are allowed to even come up. And it's that we're not taught how to reflexively demonstrate those in supervision that can then have some sort of an enactment in our therapy sessions that teaches us how to do this well. And so we get kind of this vague advice of like, you know, go and do your own work, go and go to therapy, figure your stuff out, when really, some of this stuff could be modeled a little bit better in the way that we teach people of like, here's, here's the how of how you show up. I think we're focused too much on like, the what, of what you're allowed to say, and therefore it becomes kind of restrictive rather than supportive in this process.
Katie Vernoy 09:51
We've gone through that supervision relationship and these things and other episodes and I think there's there's so much nuance there that we can't dive deeply into that. But I think kind of summarizing that point, I think we're saying know what, what impacts you have emotional conversations, get consultation or supervision that allows that to happen. And and be aware that you can't avoid it. And so if we move on to other elements of things that could be vulnerable in session, we're really looking at what's happening now. Right, like the things that happen as they go along. And I think those things are harder, because sometimes they can be predicted, like we had a conversation on, you know, pregnancy, and therapists preparing for that, and subsequent episodes around pregnancy loss and those kinds of things. But I think it's something where we've talked about predictable things. But there are also things that are very unpredictable that can happen in our lives, family emergencies, I recently had a personal family emergency, and a death in my family. And so I've been recently dealing with something that's very sudden, very surprising that I've had to then navigate with my clients. And I think, to me, what was surprising about it is this is I think, one of the most impactful things that has happened in my life. And I had had other deaths happen while I was a therapist, I've had, you know, my own fertility journey as a therapist, I've had so many things, but this one was surprising because in trying to be present, I had to navigate different elements of my relationships with my clients. And to me, I think, it felt a little bit like I was starting fresh. And so I know you've had other big things happen in your life as well, I think we've mentioned in previous episodes that you had a major bicycle accident, what was your experience in trying to navigate those things, because I think when we can prepare for it, when we know when it's something we're bringing to the table, I think we have, although not enough guidance, we have some guidance. But when there's something all of a sudden that happens in our lives that deeply impact us, I think that's where it becomes much harder, because we're so human, in those moments.
Curt Widhalm 12:03
It definitely brings up the humanity, and those things that are hidden, the relational things, the grieving things that you're talking about. And then they're the things that absolutely make it into the room, you know, my bike accident, I had my jaw wired, I've had other surgeries in the time where I've had, you know, bandages on my hands that are obviously different things from the last time that I've seen people, and this comes down to personality and work styles too is, you know, I'm somebody that, hey, alright, you're bringing it up, let's talk about it. Or I know that you're the kind of person who's gonna bring it up. So I'm gonna bring it up at first just to kind of alleviate the discussion about it as much as possible. And it's kind of with that reassurance of like, I'm alright, I'm getting treated for this, this is me showing up in my humanity, that the vast majority of my clients were like, Oh, you're not making a big deal about it, we'll spend a couple of minutes and then move on with our lives, I think it's a lot harder when it comes to those hidden or covert sort of things that are going on in our lives. With those particular things all of my clients could see what was going on with me, it's some of the other things that they can't see, they fill out the rest of my life, I'm okay talking about it now. But several years ago, I got a phone call from my wife right before going into sessions. And she said, hey, the test results are back and I have cancer. Not having really the opportunity to process that, on my own time, even before going into sessions. But it's something that I really didn't share with clients until after her treatment was over. That it was something that my population didn't really have the need to know that, that if I had to rearrange appointments to you know, to help be a part of treatment, or any of those kinds of things. It was just kind of business as usual, as far as my clients were considered and it wasn't so much a, you know, super conscious, like, I'm not wanting to talk about this. It was more of a selective like, this really doesn't impact my clients right now.
Katie Vernoy 14:21
Yeah, when I got the call recently, I knew I needed to cancel everything for the next couple of days. And I basically just cancelled and said I'm there's a family emergency I'm dealing with. And so there were folks that knew was an emergency. And then there was also folks who were scheduled who I sent out an email or a text or those kinds of things, saying that I had an unexpected death in the family. And I only told folks who were scheduled or trying to schedule in those weeks. And that felt very strange to me, because those folks there's a conversation about it. It is one of those things that's a little bit more private. I don't know hidden or covert sounds like I'm trying to purpose had something but it's something that's more private, where me grieving and going through that is not something that necessarily is relevant to my clients, as long as I am paying attention to my own level of competence and being able to be present for my clients. But it's interesting because there's, I'm seeing the difference between the clients who know, and the clients who don't. And I, I feel like as a therapist, I'm present, and I'm taking care of myself, but for the clients who know. And some clients know exactly, you know, not exactly what happened, but more detail than others, just depending on the relationship. And that was more in the conversations, but I'm finding clients checking in with me, I'm, you know, there are definitely clients who this has brought stuff up for them, which is not necessarily certainly something that I want to process with them. I feel like I know my limits of capacity there, I don't want to be processing this major loss with my clients. And I also understand that they may have their own stuff that I'm trying to figure out how to help them process. But I'm also finding with some of my clients that they're wanting to check in. And they're seeing this as an example of how to manage a big loss. And so I'm talking about structure and meaningful activity is helpful to me, and I'm making sure to pay attention to my energy, and I'm focusing in on this, and this is how I'm doing it, and I'm okay. But this is clearly a loss, that's going to be hugely impactful. It's life changing. And some of them know what that is. And so I've had clients get teary, actually start crying, there was times when I've had to redirect because they feel like, well, but what I'm bringing to you isn't even as important as what you just are going through. So how do I even be, you know, how do I even be a client here? And I've been able to successfully redirect those clients. But I, I feel like it's been such an interesting process, because I'm having such a wide array of experiences in navigating this. All the while, grieving and trying to sort out how do I be a therapist during this time, and I feel like I'm doing it, okay. But I also, this is a traumatic loss, this is something that I don't even know what's going on for myself, and so. So it's really, it's really interesting.
Curt Widhalm 17:11
So a couple of things from the APA article that you're highlighting here is, in evaluating both the psychotherapy relationship, that the actual relationship that you have, I would guess that you're probably looking at some of the clients and how long you've been working with them as part of this decision making process. Like if there's a brand new client, like, not a great thing to just be like, Hey, I'm going through this super emotional vulnerable thing on my own right now, it's a lot different if this is a long term client that you've been with for several years, part of it's, you know, as you know, some of the clients that if this is going to be something that, you know, potentially as a possibility of triggering, or re traumatizing them about something going on in their lives, that you're gonna be a lot more selective about.
Katie Vernoy 18:06
Yes, and I think that it's interesting, because I did have, I've had some newer clients that I've had to navigate this with, who I did have to cancel knew that there was a loss, and I was able to do it at a very high level, where it's like, I'm okay, I'm managing it, this is how I'm taking care of myself, and we moved on, whereas longer term clients are more interested in exactly what happened and taking care of me. I think the other thing, and this is in this article is the clients who typically seek me out, you know, we've talked about I do sacrificial helping syndrome and, and I have caregivers. And so I also was very aware through this process and continue to be aware that there are some of my clients that will want to take care of me, because that's why they came for therapy. And so I'm, I'm trying to very actively engage in some of that dynamic with them, to help them to see how they get their needs met, how I'm taking care of myself, and being able to do that, because it's, it just it's very interesting to be able to sort this out. But it's, it is very much case by case for my clients.
Curt Widhalm 19:13
And, you know, part of what we also have to talk about here is you and I both work in private practices that can tend to be more intimate just in their expectations. It's potentially different than higher need work settings where some of the vulnerabilities just might not be as appropriate, just due to the needs level of clients in those particular situations.
Katie Vernoy 19:45
And I think with those situations, oftentimes when I've had bereavement or other kind of big things going on in my life, I had, you know, 27 clinicians who could take on each one of my cases and have that covered. And it was something where there was structure set in place for there to be a full treatment team and other people available now. Everybody's overwhelmed and busy. So that's never a good plan. But But there wasn't something where it's like I see them, or I have a colleague who has a little bit of capacity who could potentially see them or be available to them. And they're not likely to actually take me up on it, it's it's that planning is very different in private practice versus an agency because in an agency, there are a lot of other people that have their eyes on the case.
Curt Widhalm 20:36
Part of this speaks to just kind of the roles that we have, as you're demonstrating here that, you know, if you're in those case managers situations, you can step in, you can assign other people to it, that there's a universality of experiencing vulnerability, there is not a universality of how to handle it, especially with these unexpected situations that arise. That kind of nuance is what's sorely lacking in the way that we talk about this in our fields, because we tend to, especially earlier in our careers want nice, structured here's, you know how the answers are. And the longer that we practice, the more that we understand kind of the it depends of the situations and that it depends isn't necessarily the same from one client to the next. Now, some of the risks that come along with that, though, is that what you're talking about your clients are not bound to the same confidentiality that you are. And another, you know, consideration just as far as your workplace goes, it's just going to be that one person finds out whether it's another staff member, whether it's a client, potentially everyone knows, even if it's not something that you necessarily know that some of your other clients can and should be aware of.
Katie Vernoy 22:00
With social media, and all of those things like I typically am fairly private, but I have been a little bit more open sharing obituaries, for example, or the things that are going on, I still try to keep it with just friends, but you know, friends of friends and screenshots and all that kind of stuff. And so I think it is important to remain aware of those things. And it is important to, to continue to kind of take care of myself within those things. Because a client may pop up and say, Hey, I heard about death in your family. Why didn't you tell me and I, I honestly am trying to both take care of myself and my clients in doing so because any moment of talking about the death in my session can be clinically appropriate, but maybe more challenging for me to be able to refocus on the session. And so it's it's a weird, it's a weird balance that I'm trying to strike. And it's said in this context of in society, especially Western society, US society, we don't know how to manage grief as it is there's expectations either that you were destroyed and can't do anything, or that you are out for three days, and then back to work with no problems, or anywhere in between. But the nuances of this becomes very hard to navigate. And different clients know different things. There's stuff publicly that people can find. And there's also the strangeness of the relationship as a therapist with a client on what actually is in that relationship. What do we what do we owe our clients? What information do they need to know how well do they need to know us? And that's also an it depends based on client by client. But it's, it's just such a strange thing to navigate. Because there's not I don't think there's clear guidance as society on how we talk about these things much less, as therapists we're supposed to have this higher level of functioning, because we have to take care of our clients.
Curt Widhalm 23:56
You know, kind of one last point is as far as how we're talking about the way that this is expressed in early career clinicians. Skovholt and Ronnnestad had a 2003 write up that talks about how novice counselor struggled to find the balance between porous and rigid emotional boundaries. New counselors try to work on that balance between rigidity and under involvement with the client and softness and over involvement with the client. And I think that part of this is, again towards that, when in doubt, be safe. But as you're highlighting here, there's a lot of just other available information about us. I think as we become more seasoned in our work, and part of this as some of these things end up happening and coming up, we get better at handling the awkwardness of situations when clients who might not want this information might not be ready to handle this kind of information about us that we get better handling those ambivalent situations that could be therapeutic ruptures, if it wasn't handled gracefully, or in those times when it's not, that we're better at being human in our responsiveness to some of those mistakes.
Katie Vernoy 25:18
I really want to highlight the rupture element, because I think that there are times, you know, being a therapist for 20 years, or more than 20 years at this point, there have been ruptures based on my own humanity. And there certainly have been things where I've not been able to be as present for my clients, because what's going on with me. To really highlight the point you just made, I think there's that element of, we can be human, there are times when our humanity is going to mean that we are doing unethical or illegal work, you know, and so we have to do the best that we can to not show the humanity in that way. You know, that's the impaired therapists thing. That's the the other episodes that talk about that element. But but there are times when my physical health has not been up to snuff. And I've not had the spoons or the bandwidth to be able to interact appropriately with clients and have had and said things that were not helpful. Sometimes they actually were disruptive. And we can reach back to the the notes episode on on documenting things that are disruptive, because you're overwhelmed. To me, if you are unable to be fully present and vulnerable and recognize within yourself. This was about me. And is that okay with a client? And if not, how do I get to a place where I can actually process that with them, and be available to them in a way that's helpful. I think that's where we get in trouble, we harm the client, if we don't acknowledge if we don't apologize, if we don't repair, if we try to pretend something didn't happen, I think that's, that's where we can get into trouble. And that's where we can actually be harmful. But there will be ruptures based on our humanity, hopefully not gigantic ruptures. And certainly if your humanity is your drunk in session, or you're sleeping with your clients, no, thank you. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about you're grieving or you're worried or you're jacked up on hormones, or whatever it is, that is going on that means you need to be extra aware, extra available to your clients and have the conversation with your clients of, if I'm doing something that's not helpful, or you're not sure what's going on, in how we're interacting, let me know and actually seek that feedback and have those open conversations. I think that's when the the blanket, don't share anything is more helpful. Because if you if you can't sit with clients telling you like, Hey, I didn't like your response to that, or you seem really spaced out right now, or, you know, your, the way that you're talking about these things don't make sense to me. If your clients can't say those things to you, you have to be more accountable to your humanity than if they can.
Curt Widhalm 28:04
And I like that you're bringing up the the ruptures can also happen in the absence of saying anything when your clients are picking up that there's something going on with you that you're not available that you're not, you know, following up on extra resources between sessions. Do you have any suggestions as far as like, when those clients do set up, like, Hey, I've been expecting more of you, you're not showing up or you might feel compelled to disclose something more than what you're prepared to share at that time?
Katie Vernoy 28:37
When I've had more of those types of conversations with clients. I mean, it always goes to it depends. There's been some clients where they've read into things that weren't there. And so I've talked about I'm sorry, I had a headache, you know, and it was, it was not something that was personal. It was, Hey, I didn't mean to do harm, I see what you're saying. And it really was a headache. And it's not some other thing that you're talking about. And that doesn't always work, like just kind of say like, Hey, it is something but not what you think let's move on. But recently, I had a client that disclosed something really personal to me that hadn't been shared in long standing client. And it was something where I had my own response to it. And I was kind of busy trying not to over emote about what I was hearing because I was so heartbroken for this client. And I was disconnected. And when this client reached out to me and said, Hey, I felt really invalidated because you were disconnected. We were able to have the conversation, I was able to say, hey, my intent was to take care of my own emotions in that situation. It was something where I was also exploring my own potential responsibility of not being able have you not feeling comfortable to share that with me prior. And now let me share with you my responses and what that gave was an opportunity for me to actually process through, and it was something where I was able to then say, hey, this was what was going on for me without it being so raw in the moment. But in truth, I think it's it's hard to have a blanket like if someone says, Hey, you're not present, you know what's going on with you, because I think there is so much nuance for some folks, it could be as simple as saying, like, Yeah, I've been, you know, really overwhelmed, or I've been working on something, and it was distracting to me, I apologize. Let me get back on track. For others it might be, what you're bringing up is something that really is very resonant for me. And so I'm working hard to manage my reaction so I can be present for you. And other folks, you know, like I said, there's clients that have asked what exactly happened, and how are you handling it. And I've been saying, like, this is what happened, this is what's going on. And this is how I'm handling it. And needed that true humanity and self disclosure that then allowed them not to kind of make up their own stories in their head about what I was doing and how I was taking care of myself. And so I don't think there's one answer, but I think being present to your clients in those situations and reaching out, and sometimes it's even like, Hey, you're having a reaction, what's going on? And then that gives them an opportunity to say, well, like, I didn't like what you just said, right there. You know? So I don't know if that answers your question completely. But I think it's that that element of being as present and human as possible in the room, recognizing that there is the therapist version of humanity that kind of sits there that that has some of these extra boundaries in place. So that you're not saying like, yeah, I, I'm really pissed at my spouse, or I'm, I'm having a moment, or I don't know that I want to be a therapist anymore, whatever that is, you know, I think there are things that we don't there's, there's humanity, we don't share with our clients. And there's humanity that if we can curate, that's maybe that's not the right word. But if we can thoughtfully and deliberately choose how we share our humanity with our clients and open ourselves to them being available to that, then we can, I think, have deeper richer relationships where clients feel truly heard and seen and connected.
Curt Widhalm 32:18
I think to maybe give you a direction to go here on this is, if you're going through something don't feel like you have to make the decisions yourself. You're allowed to be human but consultations, always great idea and get some other perspectives and join our modern therapist community and know that we have a pretty good following of people that understands thinks in very much similar ways to the way that Katie and I do and rely on those who have been there before to help you guide you through some of this process. You can find our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com and you can also join our Facebook group the modern therapist group, follow us on social media. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 33:17
Thanks again to our sponsor, Thrizer.
Curt Widhalm 33:21
Thrizer is a new billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible and clinician should earn what they are worth every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the clients insurance. From their Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursements quickly directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by cheque, confusion around benefits and obscurity with reimbursement status they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It's very quick to get set up and it works great in complement with EHR systems.
Katie Vernoy 33:59
Their team is super helpful and responsive and the founder is actually a long term therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit therapy. Our very special link for Thrizer is bit.ly/moderntherapists you sign up for Thrizer with the code moderntherapists you will get one month of no payment processing fees meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time.
Curt Widhalm 34:32
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing.
Katie Vernoy 34:37
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the How To Win at Social Media, Even with No Budget course from marketing expert Melissa Forziat. It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn't just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will work you step by step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
Curt Widhalm 35:07
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the 1000s. But to make it accessible to small businesses it is available for only $247. Plus, as a listener of The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, you can use the promo code THERAPY to get 10% off. So if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click the link in our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today.
Announcer 35:39
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What You Should Know About Walk and Talk Therapy and Other Non-Traditional Counseling Settings – Part 2 Curt and Katie chat about non-traditional therapy settings like outdoor walk and talk therapy as well as home-based counseling. In the second of a two-part, continuing education podcourse series, we look at law and ethics, accessibility, informed consent, navigating confidentiality, dual relationships, and what therapist might want to consider before getting started.
In this continuing education podcast episode, we look at the laws and ethics related to non-traditional therapy settings For our fourth CE-worthy podcourse, we’re looking at the laws and ethics of bringing therapy into non-traditional settings, including walk and talk therapy and home visits. We cover a lot of topics in this episode:
Debunking the hesitations of using non-traditional therapy settings * Minimizing liability and concerns related to these environments * Is it unethical to not consider these environments? * Access and payment, including insurance/managed health care concerns and fee setting * Unpredictability in the environment * Scheduling and permission for services * Business practices and systems that support this type of dynamic practice
Accessibility of walk & talk and home-based therapies * Financial, physical or other types of accessibility (and navigating those) * Ways to make sure you clients can access the service and are prepared for the environment * Extending boundaries and the consequences of these situations * Documentation of any concerns that arise * Clinician comfort and preference, do no harm, and do good
Informed Consent for non-traditional therapies * Client choice and appropriateness, including informed opt-in (and opt out) * Health conditions, screening or attestation related to risk and liability * Clinician safety and how to talk with your client about these concerns * Cancellation policies and back up plans * Ability to terminate (both passively and actively) * Collaboration and communication
Confidentiality when you’re meeting outside of the therapy office * Managing the risks of the limits of confidentiality in these other settings * Collateral consent forms for additional members of the treatment * Release forms for others in the home * Co-creating the plan to manage these situations * Ideas for how to explain the relationship, if needed * Active and passive loss of confidentiality (and how to talk about these risks) * Boundaries versus confidentiality (for example where in someone’s home to meet) * Documentation and consultation
Dual Relationships that can happen during walk and talk or home-based therapies * Professional therapy never includes sex * Casual nature of the relationship in these settings and the threat of friendship vibes * Not all dual relationships are problematic * Host/guest dynamics as something to pay attention to, but not necessarily harmful * Navigating the potential medical needs of home-bound clients (helping and/or advocating for more help)
What therapists should assess before getting started * Liability and malpractice * Logistics and planning * Assessing client vs clinician benefit * Assessing competency for these types of services * Training, consultation, supervision, documentation
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee!
Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using THIS LINK if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That’s right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time!
Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing Today’s episode of The Therapy Reimagined podcast is brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing. Melissa is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources.
Are you looking to boost your reach and get more clients from social media? Check out the “How to Win at Social Media (even with no budget!)” course from marketing expert, Melissa Forziat.
It can be so hard to get engagement on social media or to know what to post to tell the story of your brand. It can be even harder to get those conversations to turn into new clients. Social media marketing isn’t just for businesses that have a ton of money to spend on advertising. Melissa will work you step-by-step through creating a smart plan that fits within your budget.
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the thousands, but to make it accessible to small businesses, it is available for only $247. PLUS, as a listener of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide, you can use promo code THERAPY to get 10% off. So, if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click THIS LINK and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today!
Please note that Therapy Reimagined/The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast is a paid affiliate for Melissa Forziat Events & Marketing, so we will get a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using our link. Thank you in advance!
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: Walk &Talk and Other Non-Traditional Therapy Settings Part 2
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Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Cooley, S. J., Jones, C. R., Moss, D., & Robertson, N. (2022). Organizational perspectives on outdoor talking therapy: Towards a position of “environmental safe uncertainty.” British Journal of Clinical Psychology, 61(1), 132–156. https://doi.org/10.1111/bjc.12315
Boland, K. M. (2019). Ethical Considerations for Providing In-Home Mental Health Services for Homebound Individuals. Ethics & Behavior, 29(4), 287–304. https://doi.org/10.1080/10508422.2018.1518138
For the full references list, please see the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Walk and Talk and Other Non-Traditional Therapy Settings Part 1
Field-Based Private Practice with Megan Costello, LMFT
Dual Relationships: Pros and Cons
The Balance Between Boundaries and Humanity (an interview with Dr. Jamie Marich)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists ethics committee, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, lecturer in Counseling Laws and Ethics at California State University Northridge, a former Law & Ethics Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and former CFO of CAMFT. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, with a Master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from California State University, Fullerton and a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Theater from Occidental College in Los Angeles, California. Katie has always loved leadership and began stepping into management positions soon after gaining her license in 2005. Katie’s experience spans many leadership and management roles in the mental health field: program coordinator, director, clinical supervisor, hiring manager, recruiter, and former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. Now in business for herself, Katie provides therapy, consultation, or business strategy to support leaders, visionaries, and helping professionals in pursuing their mission to help others. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of ModernTherapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Thrizer.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
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Curt Widhalm 00:30
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Katie Vernoy 00:34
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing.
Curt Widhalm 00:39
Melissa Forziat is a small business marketing expert who specializes in marketing advice for businesses that have limited resources, including the very special course How to Win at Social Media, Even with No Budget. Stay tuned to the end of the episode to learn how you can get the most from social media marketing, even with little to no budget.
Announcer 00:59
You're listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:15
Hey modern therapists, we're so excited to offer the opportunity for one unit of continuing education for this podcast episode. Once you've listened to this episode, to get CE credit, you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post test and complete the evaluation. Once that's all completed, you'll get a CE certificate in your profile, where you can download it for your records. For a current list of our CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
Katie Vernoy 01:47
Once again, hop over to moderntherapistcommunity.com for one CE once you've listened. Woo hoo!
Curt Widhalm 01:54
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and this is our second in a two part episodes for our CE content on doing therapy in non-traditional therapy settings. Part one was a lot about the logistics and clinical concerns. Part two, we are looking more at law and ethics concerns. We had made reference to a number of things as far as precautions to take. And if it's not written down, it's probably not something that you had thought about ahead of time or so the lawyers who are suing you would say. So, some of the concerns and stuff that we're going to talk about here today is about, you know, avoiding any liability, minimizing liability that we can take into this episode. So Katie, what are the most important things for us to talk about now? What are you hearing from some of the people who are consulting with you? And let's dive in from there.
Katie Vernoy 03:05
Sure. And just to clarify for folks that this is the first one I would recommend going back to the previous CE episode, it's kind of a 101 on what walk and talk and home based therapies are and clinical considerations, benefits and how to do it. So definitely check back to that one. The most important thing is that we think about what we're doing ethically. And that's kind of what this conversation is going to be about. But I think the first place to start is to look a little bit at why there's been such a hesitation around employing especially therapies like outdoor walk and talk kind of therapies. I think home based has been around for a while, but there's been hesitation just in any kind of non-traditional setting. And part of it really stems from provider anxiety, or kind of the rigidity that we can have around what therapy looks like. Is it just in my office in the safe space where I can control everything? And I think there's a lot of stereotypes around what therapy is. And one of the articles I was reading Cooley et all 2021 put together an article 'Organizational Perspectives on Outdoor Talking Therapy' in the British Journal of Clinical Psychology. Cooley's done a lot of these things. In looking at the systemic pushback on this, what they really posited is that we need to get to a place of environmental safe uncertainty. And what that means it's a position of openness, curiosity and collaboration regarding the therapy environment, including the possibility of other environments being more conducive to therapy, other environments meaning not the office. And that leads me to kind of the first point which is: Is it unethical not to consider these environments because they maybe more conducive to treatment, then sitting in your nice little office?
Curt Widhalm 05:06
We have talked about in some of our previous presentations about how much of our field is modeled around clinician comfort and clinician principles, rather than necessarily what's best for clients. And some of those are logistical concerns, you know, we can't always just, you know, stack six or seven clients in a day back to back if it means that we're having to also travel to different parts of a city or county or, you know, much further if you're working in rural practices. If what we're going to is kind of the core principles of have the first stance of like, do no harm, but our second stance is do good.
Katie Vernoy 05:47
Yeah, exactly.
Curt Widhalm 05:50
And, you know, this is that push pull between those two concepts. Is the environment of our office is one that is hopefully set up best for do no harm. And it's kind of in that good enough for like, doing good. Now, what I'm hearing is the aspirationally, doing best is doing therapy, where it's going to most benefit the client.
Katie Vernoy 06:18
Yes.
Curt Widhalm 06:19
And we do have, you know, some examples of this that, you know, for instance, Italy, as an example, here is a country that does not have mental hospitals. That it is about being able to work with people with mental illness, in the environments that they live, that kind of thrusts them into needing to have the right approaches to clinical intervention that leads them best into their day to day lives. On the other hand, we have America where we throw people in jail and ignore that mental illness might be a factor. And that's not today's episode.
Katie Vernoy 07:01
No, no. But I think that that really hits at the crux of the argument here, which is, there are people for whom home based or walk and talk therapy is the best form of treatment. And so the best way we get to a system that supports it is holding this environmental safe uncertainty, which is being able to be open and safely open to the idea that we can be in an uncertain environment. Another systemic concern, which I think gets in the way and dances around with some of our our ethics and laws, is payers and payment. Now, insurance coverage, you know, Medicaid, for those of you in the United States, oftentimes covers a lot of this stuff. But there are concerns around driving time, and is that billable? I know, we had a huge argument around that when I was completing mental health but if you are a private practitioner, and you're needing to then charge extra to drive to a client's home, for example, or do you on the flip side, decrease your fees, if you let go of your office, and you're only seeing people in these non traditional spaces. And it really puts this thing of around payment of are we being limited by payers, whether it's insurance payment, or how much someone can afford to pay on what treatments we can offer. And we at least there's a CAMFT ethics code three point eleven or 3.11, that says we actually have to tell people about options for treatment, even if their insurance company doesn't cover it.
Curt Widhalm 08:47
So much around payment is going to be in the: we charge for services that we actually provide. We let our consumers know what we're actually going to provide. So that way, they can opt into what is best for them. And that's going to take a couple of different forms here. Like you know, on one hand, you're talking about, you know, managed care system, but keep in mind that these ethics codes are written in a way that helps to maybe hit kind of the best catchment of every type of practice in being able to write them. And so, I'm going to start not with managed care systems here first, I'm gonna start with, you know, those private practices that are all cash payer or doing super bills. You might, you know, have a client where you say, alright, I can go and see you at your house. But it's also going to take me time to drive there. And this is roughly how long it's gonna take me to drive here. Here's my driving fee. You cannot put that driving time as session provided time on something like a super bill, those are actually two separate line items. And so this is that recommendation of charge appropriately for the services that you're providing, out what you're speaking to, and going back to the manage healthcare part of it is that drive time isn't an option. And so therefore, it kind of thrust some of the business practices to, if they're going to operate efficiently, maybe not allow for that kind of time to sit there in the middle. It is a possibility with maybe things like, you know, a private health insurance company that you can still tack on that drive time to those clients, that's just being able to get to a different service, insurance probably isn't going to reimburse it. But I think that, you know, in my limited knowledge of some of the federal health care systems, I don't think that that's going to be an option there.
Katie Vernoy 11:01
Well, and I think with some of the the systems that require those things like Medicaid, Medi-cal, Medicare, you know, some of those payers, they're gonna have their own rules, and whether drive time is billable or not, I think is something that you want to pay attention to. I think the challenge is, is when it's your own private practice, and do you have it as a separate line item? Or do you just charge more for the service? You know, is there is there an issue with saying, I'm going to raise my fee, X amount, and I'm going to spend 30 minutes driving to client a, and zero minutes driving to client B, but they're both point paying the same amount? Is there a concern there?
Curt Widhalm 11:49
Yes. And it's gonna fall under those usual and customary amounts. And, again, there's probably going to be people who do this kind of stuff anyway, and just kind of all lump it into one sort of payment and don't pay much mind to it. But when clinicians are being examined for what is your actual usual and customary be prepared for questions like how do you figure that out? If somebody is to look at client A where it's alright, you've got this 30 minute drive time incorporated into this fee? What's the justification for the exact same type of services just being provided in your office having a completely different fee? And you need to be able to reasonably and prudently explain the differences between those two, because when it comes to what your usual and customary fee is, it's also the justification for those fees that needs to be explained.
Katie Vernoy 12:48
And I think the equity and the ability to do a fair payment for all clients, there's arguments in both directions in that if, if on average, I spend X amount of time driving, and I don't charge individual clients for driving, you're saying that's not okay.
Curt Widhalm 13:07
Correct.
Katie Vernoy 13:08
If I go, if I go all over town, and client a is typically a 30 minute drive, sometimes they're a 90 minute drive, client B is usually a 10 minute drive, but sometimes they're a 40 minute drive, I need to charge them differentially is what you're telling me.
Curt Widhalm 13:22
You need to charge for what you're actually doing. And you need to do that appropriately. And you need to have that kind of stuff set up, up front.
Katie Vernoy 13:32
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 13:33
And especially with our no surprises act being introduced in America here in 2022, is there's a potential that if you're having kind of these traffic concerns, as you're describing, that it's a separate line item that you're going to need to put in your good faith estimates to clients. Because the whole point of this is that it's not to surprise clients with your billing. And the best way of protecting yourself on that is putting that information in writing ahead of time and having clients see it and agree to it.
Katie Vernoy 14:13
Yeah. And I think there's there could also potentially be an argument just having a specific fee for home based services. So here's the session fee. Here's the home based services fee. But you're saying if somebody is further away, I got to charge more.
Curt Widhalm 14:30
Saying that it needs to be commensurate and clear with your policies.
Katie Vernoy 14:34
All right. All right. All right. We don't want to get stuck there.
Curt Widhalm 14:37
That results in a higher fee, then that's commensurate with whatever policies you have.
Katie Vernoy 14:43
All right. So there may be some fee stuff to sort out if you're doing this, especially if you're driving a lot of distance most days. Some of the recommendations that I've given to folks in the past is setting up what I would call catchment areas. So on Monday, I'm in this area of town On Tuesday, I'm in this area of town on Wednesday, I'm this area of town. And on Thursday, I'm at the walk and talk location by my office or whatever, right like you, you know, just so that you diminish those differences. However, regardless of setting that up, and potentially putting systems in place, there is still going to be unpredictability. And that can be due to a lot of different things. So you've got the unpredictability of the environment, which we talked about in detail in our previous episode. But there's also this unpredictability on, if you're outside what the weather's like. If you're going to someone's home, if they have visitors. And I think there's those types of things where when you have so little control, the system says, "No, don't do this, don't do this. This is scary."
Curt Widhalm 15:50
So as a resident of Southern California, where our weather is usually 75, and sunny, I don't find myself traveling to other places in the country, sometimes where I forget that weather is different. Like...
Katie Vernoy 16:04
There's... weather is a thing in places Curt. I know, it seems weird to us, but there's actually weather in other places.
Curt Widhalm 16:11
So, my informed consent is being cognizant that people are not fragile little beings, and that they can make their own decisions about things. So it does make mention of weather does happen, and it's your responsibility to be dressed appropriately for it. And that's at least, like this is a foreseeable thing that can happen.
Katie Vernoy 16:43
Yes, we'll go into more of this and the informed consent section, because we could dig into this very deeply, especially the the fragile little beings. But, um, but I think just as far as kind of the overarching systems concerns, just to close this out, I think the other pushback that often happens is scheduling and getting permission for the services that are provided. Whether it's getting permission to go into someone's home, school or office. Whether it's scheduling to get to a certain location, I know I've had to shift clients by 15 or 20 minutes to get to walk back to my office between sessions. And I think the difficulty with that means that you have to be able to navigate those things with your clients. Because, well, if we're in the office, it'll be at this time, if we're at the park, it'll be at this time. And if we're in video, it'll, you know, like, it's, it's something where navigating those concerns, I think, can be very hard for some clients, because they want their exact time, every single week.
Curt Widhalm 17:46
And as we mentioned, in the first episode, this is a little bit more of that dynamic practicing that you need to be able to respond in any sort of given situation and, and it's having backup plans, you know, in the days where there is inclement weather, it might change that, alright, we're not meeting at the park, we're actually meeting at an office instead, or, and...
Katie Vernoy 18:10
We're doing video, doing telehealth.
Curt Widhalm 18:12
And that might affect a start time. And I think it's prudent of therapists to make sure that we revisit that as a possibility fairly frequently with our clients so that way, it's not a surprise when and if it does come up.
Katie Vernoy 18:29
Yes, yes. And I think just allowing for that in the conversation. So. So that's kind of the high level systems concerns. I think we've addressed those well enough. I think that the brunt of our conversation is really going to be around the legal and ethical concerns that a lot of people bring up that are kind of more individual with your client, the things that you have to grapple with not just as a system, can we say it's okay to do this thing. Some of the thoughts I am sharing are from an article, Boland 2018, 'Ethical Considerations for Providing Home Based Services for Homebound Individuals.' It's obviously there's some specific things to folks who are homebound. And I want to mention those things. Because if you're doing home based therapy, it could be for someone that is homebound for mental health reasons or physical reasons. But it also talks I think sufficiently around the types of things that you might encounter in an environment that is not yours that you don't control. Accessibility, I think is is one of the reasons that people say to do this to go to people's homes, meet them where they're at, they don't have to, to drive, those kinds of things, but it's also a complaint, especially around walk and talk therapy. And so there is a value in a lot of the ethical codes around accessibility, about providing therapy across the board and in my thoughts, you know, like there's physical abilities and accessibility that you want to make sure if you're doing a physical activity together, you know where we can make sure that you're able to walk together or if you if someone is not able to walk that, that, if they would like to be outdoors, you can provide them space to do that, whether it's in a wheelchair or in other types of settings or primarily sitting outdoors, those kinds of things. But it is, I think, a harder concept around, okay, if I've got someone who is disabled, or who has another challenge that outdoors might not work for, this may not be an accessible modality for them. There's also just the physical concerns. And you'd already mentioned, like they need to wear the right clothes and to do the things but but there is making sure that when they show up, they can access the service. So I wear a hat. And oftentimes during the summer, I wear sunscreen, and you know, I make sure that I've got the right shoes on. And so one of the things is looking at if someone comes unprepared for what you're signed up for, what do you do with that? I mean, you kind of just said, I leave it up to them.
Curt Widhalm 21:00
So I'm looking at the American Counseling Associations Code of Ethics here. And this is A6C documenting boundary extensions. And I'll paraphrase this, but it's if counselors extend boundaries, they must officially document prior to the interaction when feasible, the rationale for such an interaction, the potential benefit and the anticipated consequences for the clients. When unintentional harm occurs, the counselor must also show evidence of attempt to remedy such a harm. And I think that this is a really good and dynamic ethical code here because it says that what we talked about in the last episode and and what we're going to get into with our informed consent discussion here in a little bit, is that we need to anticipate what the consequences of situations are. But these are also things that are going to be dynamic, that if a client is showing up doesn't have the right footwear, for example, you know, is going for a walk on a trail in flip flops is going to be something that is doable for them is you need to then document that you're having that conversation. And that it's up to them to be able to continue to opt into it. And if they do end up getting hurt, you do need to document like, what it is you're doing. So you can't just be like, "Well, alright, if you want to walk in flip flops that's on you," like, really, like you don't, there's just there's a potential, like there's a long walk, these might not be stable enough shoes, you know, the person gets a blister halfway around the loop, like, you know, you gotta be like "You need me to get your band aid?" like "You want to wait here until, you know, you paramedics come?"
Katie Vernoy 22:59
I think it's I think all of those things are really important because to me, there's also the other element, when you talk about extending boundaries, just the element of I'm wearing those kinds of clothes, I may be in not as good physical shape as my clients as far as how fast I can walk, how long I can walk, I fell once and my client helped me up. We'll talk about that in dual relationships a little bit later. But I think it's it's something where this is a little bit harder to, to kind of cleanly say is that are these forms of treatment accessible or not? And so the the question I have here is, do you need to be able to provide these options for all people?
Curt Widhalm 23:47
Going back to what I said at the top of the episode, is that sometimes you're going to provide therapy that is just based on clinician preference to. You know, what, when we talk about accessibility sort of things, we, as individuals, and especially in private practices don't need to absolutely make ourselves 100% available in every single direction for every single possible type of client. And this is where we do the good enough approach. And we take steps to address situations that are more accommodating as those situations arise. And it may not be immediately, you know, you're talking about clients with disabilities or something that might affect mobility. Well, that might be a consideration that you look at as far as your office building or whether or not you participate in therapy outside of the office. Some of these situations are also going to come up with some of our able bodied clients. You know, if you have have a client who breaks their ankle in between sessions that this is now something where you may not be prepared for that. What you're going to want to do is then stop, evaluate the situation, go through what the new risks and consequences of things are. We like, 'Alright, man, like, you got to hobble along on your crutches faster along with me. So that way we...' Probably not a good recommendation there. But it's, you know, all right, we might not be able to have a full, you know, loop of sessions, you might be like, left out there, would you rather sit on a bench instead?
Katie Vernoy 25:41
Or would you rather meet via video? There are those types of accessibility. And then I think there's also some of the things and we started talking about this in the last episode, but for home based clients, where do we only provide these things for folks living in certain neighborhoods? Where we feel safe? You know, do we only provide home base for people that have a specific payer? I mean, or who can afford it? You know, I think it's, it's something where I agree with you, I think we do the best that we can. And some of it has to have some boundaries around our own needs, you know, we can only afford what we can afford to, as far as, you know, lowering fees, we can only do what we can do around our own safety, and we want to protect our own safety. But I think there's that element of being aware, are you providing a service that is inaccessible in a way that is discriminatory? And I think in this situation, I think it's very much case by case. And I don't think that this is a reason that you would not consider using these ever. I think, I think accessibility issues are pretty navigatable in this situation.
Curt Widhalm 26:56
Sure. And to be a little bit more open about this. There's a couple of citations here that I want to point out, Lazarus all the way back in 94, said one of the worst professional or ethical violations is that of permitting current risk management principles to take precedence over human interventions, and very much advocating for we should take these considerations into account. And that it may be unethical to not open our practices to being able to serve in a wider variety of communities. And the goal of this is to free therapists to intervene with client's specific situations in presenting problems, rather than just kind of sitting back and playing it in the safest way possible.
Katie Vernoy 27:55
Exactly. But speaking of being safe, I think it's time for us to jump in to the informed consent, because I think it's truly important. I think all of the ethical codes, talk about informed consent, and we definitely in these situations needs a very strong informed consent.
Curt Widhalm 28:12
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 28:13
So I think first off, we want to look at making sure that this is truly the client's choice. That the plan is created together. I know, there were times at least during the pandemic for me, when I was ready to be face to face with folks, I was not ready for being in the office. And so I started doing walk and talk. And there were some clients that I told it to. And after I set it, I was like, that was just for me. We did not end up doing walk and talk, I will I will put that out there. I was able to dial it back. But there was something was like, Hey, you want to meet me at the park? And they're like, "Umm, that seems weird." And so to me, because we've talked about in the previous episode that there was clinician benefit for being outdoors and walk and talk, mental health, wellbeing all that good stuff. And, and also efficacy because you're more creative and your brains working better. But that is not a reason to do it. Like it has to actually be co-created. And the treatment plan needs to be collaborative. And I think that's something where it can be very easy to say, well, this is my new thing, and we're all doing it. Or this is the only thing I do and you're gonna do it versus let's see if you're a match and I'll refer you out if I don't do other forms of therapy.
Curt Widhalm 29:33
So there's two things that you're talking about here. One is the creating the plan together. And some of this is also going to be based on clinician competence and actual services offered that, you know, the client may come in with ideas of what they want out of therapy, but if it's not something that you provide, you are still free to say no.
Katie Vernoy 29:56
Of course.
Curt Widhalm 29:58
And so I don't want anybody to feel like they have to absolutely twist themselves into knots in order to do something, if it's not something that you yourself are comfortable with. And you know, as far as the place where you provide therapy, you're free to say like, you know, I only work out of the office, or I'm only doing virtual sessions right now. And giving those referrals like Katie's talking about.
Katie Vernoy 30:24
And I think the point for the informed consent is to be very clear within the informed consent, how you're doing treatment and making sure that the client is opting into that, versus what they imagine therapy to be because you if you don't know how to describe it, how can they really know what they're opting in for? The other thing too, is, especially with some of these more non-traditional therapy spaces, they really need to recognize it's voluntary. And that they can opt out at any time. And I think... what it seems obvious, you know, to us, but there is the power differential. And I think there's also this element of when someone's doing a treatment that's specifically aligned to their location: ERP, desensitization, all the different kinds of things where somebody's kind of walking through something really challenging with their therapist, they need to know that they can opt out that they have some control.
Curt Widhalm 31:22
That's just good therapy and not abusive therapy in the first place.
Katie Vernoy 31:29
Of course, I mean, some of this is going to be like,duh, this is the normal thing that we would do in an informed consent, it just is, it's a bit different if you and your client are on a trail, and letting them know, you can opt out and walk back. And I will, I will finish the loop or I will follow you back. You know, whatever it is, I mean, I think people need to know that they have control and autonomy, and this is their treatment and not the clinicians dictation of what's going to happen.
Curt Widhalm 31:58
And in addition to that, you as the therapist leading the conversation on 'how is this working out for you?' that extends that action to not just waiting for clients to then passively opt out and just like leave you standing in a park the next week when you're supposed to be meaning there.
Katie Vernoy 32:18
Sure. Yeah. Specifically to the outdoor therapy, there are the health issues. And I think one of the things I looked at, talked about doing a health screening questionnaire, I feel a little concerned about scope of practice there, potentially a physician note or some sort of approval. But I've also seen consent for treatments that just have an attestation that I'm taking my own risks, and I'm healthy enough to do this. Where do you stand on that, Curt?
Curt Widhalm 32:47
I think that it's important that considerations be factored into it. And again, where I'm always a little weirded out that our profession treats people as both incredibly fragile and capable of making every decision in their life at the same time. So I like that the informed consents have: you're opting into this and you're taking care of your physical health as part of that consideration. It at least speaks to us thinking of, well, this could be a risk, and especially in more litigious areas, you know, if you're gonna get sued by somebody, this is again, reducing liability, because you can always imagine that opposing counsel in a deposition saying, "Well, why didn't you consider that this client might be not a good candidate for getting physical exercise?" So it at least is something that allows for you and your attorney in that situation to say, they attested that they could and that they were medically cleared for it, you know. Oddly, I see the same kind of language in things like sporting events like marathons and 10, Ks and five K's where it's like, you've you physically fit person, theoretically have cleared that you're medically okay to come in and do this. At worst, it's a line to check off in your informed consent. And at best, it's something that really does help to limit some of that liability for you.
Katie Vernoy 34:30
Another element with that is potentially like someone who is allergic to bees, or to bee stings or or some of the things that you may want to be aware of if you're outdoors with someone. I feel like that could be a separate conversation and/or something that goes into the informed consent. I have mixed feelings there.
Curt Widhalm 34:53
There's always going to be, no pun intended. There's always going to be something that inevitably gets left off of a list like that, you know, and there's got to be a natural line, like, you know, how specific you have to be with things like allergies, like, you know, you're going to be exposed potentially to tree pollen and, you know, if you're walking by a dog park, you know, animal dander say. So I like that there's at least something that points to you attest to, you know, if you're speaking to a client, you attest to that you are medically and physically capable of being in these environments as cleared by a medical professional. And you accept all risks that go along with being outside where you're potentially exposed to nature.
Katie Vernoy 35:48
I would almost add and this was this was something suggested in one of the things I was reading is that you kind of encourage them to tell you if there's anything you should know. I think if someone's allergic to pollen, and it's spring, I think, okay, I don't need to know that. But if someone is deathly allergic to bees I want to be aware of that. So that I know to call the ambulance when/if someone gets a bee sting. Now, granted, they could tell me that in the moment. But I don't know if I raise my liability if I'm aware that they have that concern.
Curt Widhalm 36:26
Most attorneys will do a very good job of finding some way to make you know, that you should have been aware. And, you know, so it's kind of that naivete is not a protection, and especially intentional naivete. So, yeah, it's a basically a longer version of the question that you asked: any concerns about you being outside and walking around physically, you know, that this is the kind of terrain that we're going to walk on, generally, well maintained sidewalks, at times, sidewalks with cracks in them, you're potentially crossing the streets in a couple of areas, or walking on the street for sections without sidewalks. If you're walking on a trail in a park, it's unpaved, maintained grounds that, you know, has potential tripping hazards. You can put some of those language things in there that, again, you're going for reducing liability, you're not going to be expected to protect against everything here.
Katie Vernoy 37:36
And I think just for to close that one up, I think I would put something to the effect of you're attesting that you're fine medically, and that you will inform the therapist if there's anything they should know.
Curt Widhalm 37:49
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 37:50
So another thing that should go into the informed consent are confidentiality challenges and how you're going to manage those. But we're going to do a whole section on that. So I want to skip that one really quickly. And go to clinician safety, because I think this is one that I was surprised in reading through the informed consent suggestions, that clinician safety was there. I don't concern myself with this prep for walk and talk therapy, I think that probably is something where I'm having at least a little bit of control over the environment and so I'm opting in. This is more for home based, where you're contracting basically, with your client, if there's anything that they need to manage for clinician safety, so this: is locking up pets, this is: potentially if there are family members that are very much against treatment, and maybe have even threaten the clinician, or if there's or if there are family members that just are going to be mean... I don't know. But that there are some safeguards in place, and talking about how the clinician is going to be remaining safe in those situations.
Curt Widhalm 39:05
And I think that the more clear that you can be with any of these things, the better because, again, you're looking for an open collaborative process here. In order for me to be able to help you know, again, coming back to like allergies, things for clinician has a strong allergy to something like perfumes, that might be a barrier to treatment when it comes to a clinician visiting someone's household. Yeah, and these are the things where yeah, you move up to having pet secured, if there has been a threat from a family member, you're gonna have to address that with your clients as far as "alright. I can't be in that environment and provide you therapy. We need to find something else to do." So again coming back to that problem solving alleviating this the the part of the problem and developing a new treatment strategy from there.
Katie Vernoy 40:07
And I think exactly what you said, I think that the biggest piece of that is maybe not even delineating all the clinician safety concerns. I mean, if there are specific ones, like I have these kinds of allergies or whatever, you may want to have that in there. But even just say if the clinician is not able to ensure/secure their own security, the session may be discontinued. I know for myself, it seems obvious. And I think this is something that actually is good both for kind of newer clinicians or clinicians under supervision as well as clients to think about this. But if you're in a client's home, and something happens, where you feel like your life is at risk, or if you feel like you're in danger, you should leave. Immediately.
Curt Widhalm 40:57
Absolutely.
Katie Vernoy 40:59
Whether or not the client is in a high state of risk, whatever, the clinician must protect their own safety immediately. And I think clients should, should know that, that they this is what they can do to mitigate the risk for the clinician. And if that risk is not sufficiently reduced, or if there is a risk there that the clinician is not comfortable with adult in the session, and/or suggests an alternate location to have that session.
Curt Widhalm 41:23
Because no matter how ineffective you may be, you will be more ineffective if you are dead or incapacitated.
Katie Vernoy 41:36
True story. And along the lines of plans, I think it's also important to have whatever plans you know for you know, that you can have for handling known risks for me COVID precautions, I've definitely incorporated those into all of my informed consents. And so, if you are only doing home visits for folks who wear masks, or only have certain levels of vaccination status, or whatever, I think those things need to be very clear. I think that there's the plans around the uncertainty of the weather, backup plans, and then I think a big one that I think all of us have been playing around with our cancellation policies. I know that many of us have shifted our very stringent cancellation policies to basically say, if you're sick, do not come and see me in person. But I think other cancellation policies around rain, you know, or if it's raining, we will switch to video. If you've got a visitor, what are you going to do, I think being able to talk about ways that you can minimize the negative impact on the practice, because we are businesses, we need to be able to run and we need to make our money. But also that makes sense and that are clearly stated in your informed consent.
Curt Widhalm 42:58
And one thing that I noticed with some of my clients that I was seeing outside of the office, is what you do when the time changes, and it gets dark way earlier and is... an appropriate place. So again, this all falls under that foreseeable consequences and adapting to them and documenting that these processes have happened all along.
Katie Vernoy 43:23
Yeah, yeah. And I think all of that stuff is, is really important to be in the informed consent just to kind of run through just for for those of you who are taking notes, you want to make sure that they're aware of voluntary participation, that they're actually consenting for treatment. And actually, you may need collateral participation, consent for treatment. If you're doing stuff in home, if like a sibling or a fit parent or another family member is going to pop in time to time, making sure they know what they're opting into, health statements and potential plans around taking care of that, confidentiality and how to handle it, which we'll go into more detail on, clinician safety. Any plans for handling known risks. I think those are really important. There may be other things, but those all need to go into informed consent. And I think the question on this topic that I think, well, the first one was: Can people really know what they're opting into? And I think we've talked about Yes, I think we need to understand it and explain it to them. Yes. But you talked about kind of being left standing, the therapist, you know, kind of forlornly standing in the park by themselves and the client doesn't show up. And that's called passive termination. Right? The client just ghosts the therapist.
Curt Widhalm 44:45
Yes, exactly.
Katie Vernoy 44:46
But the interesting thing, and this was in the article around the homebound therapists or homebound clients where that if you were going to a client's home, they cannot passively terminate because: She just keeps showing up. I mean, I guess they could not answer the door. And I'm sure you had those. I've definitely had those long ago or they could not be there. But it's very hard, especially for someone who is completely homebound and cannot leave to passively terminate services. And is that, okay?
Curt Widhalm 45:18
We have a responsibility as therapists to ensure that the services that we're providing are effective with our clients. And one of the best ways of doing that is talking with our clients about it. And well, the situation that you're describing may not allow for that passive opting out. There should be some sort of approach that therapists are taking to regularly evaluate how the treatment is going. For my feedback informed treatment listeners out there, this is already built into just about every session that you're doing things. But for those who aren't engaged in that, we do have the responsibility of coming back and evaluating how are we doing on our goals? How's our treatment plan looking? And that should be done with some regular sort of interval, whether it's time based, whether it's number of session based, that if we're aware that clients can't passively opt out of sessions, we should take on some of that responsibility of giving them more of an active opportunity to opt out of sessions.
Katie Vernoy 46:37
Absolutely. And I think the other piece is also for us to continue to assess appropriateness, because another thing mentioned in there was that they may not want to terminate due to loneliness. And so we have a responsibility to make sure that treatment still necessary and that we're providing them with only the services that they need. And not just being a buddy that comes to see them every week. So moving on to bigger stuff. But that was kind of what needs to go what kind of the issues around informed consent. But now looking, I want to spend a little bit of time on confidentiality, as well as the potential for dual relationships. Because I think those are the big things. When we think about these types of services, I think those are the big things that are the big juicy things that we should be paying attention to. And starting with confidentiality, I think we cannot completely guarantee confidentiality, I don't think. But I think there's a lot of ways we can mitigate the risks. And so what are some of the things that come to mind when you think about confidentiality in either these public spaces or in someone's home?
Curt Widhalm 47:45
So the biggest things, and again, looking at it from limiting your liability standpoint, is talking about the potential risks and benefits of what this is. And so the risks are other people can overhear what we're talking about, we might need to speak in a more coded way. And really talking about that the limit of confidentiality, much more fluid when it's outside of the office, and when it is inside the office, because there is just that potential of being overheard.
Katie Vernoy 48:19
And I think what can compound that at home is that you might be overheard by the person that you're talking about. Or they may come in, or they may do the things, or you may want to introduce them, or there may be, you know, kind of a fluidity of them coming in and out of sessions. And so I think just being very clear on that, but I think as far as the cya elements of it, I think if they're going to be part of treatment, you do the collateral consent form. But I think making sure that if there are folks that are going to regularly be interacting, you want to get release forms. You can't obviously, you're not going to do that for the folks at the park, those people are just walking by. But like people in the home, you know, you may want to consider that.
Curt Widhalm 49:00
Well, and it's also part of what we're talking about into, be specific about it. Is asking our clients how they would want us to handle those situations where there are other people in the house, or where we are walking by other people outside. Help the client be able to make their own informed decision of and take some ownership over those situations as well.
Katie Vernoy 49:27
Absolutely. The big pieces outside, I think clients don't necessarily know and don't have the experience to think about how they want to handle it. Because it could be just let's, you know, we'll just pay attention. If somebody walks by maybe we either speak more in a more coded way or we break for a second and then pick back up once we pass these people or whatever. But I think if someone comes up to you or to your clients, people they know or people that know you, actually having the conversation is if someone comes up and talks to us, what are we going to say? You know, and I've heard you know, like, you can say this as a colleague, this is someone I work with. It can, it can be a lot of different things. Maybe it can be this as my babysitter, or this is my teacher, it could be this as my therapist, "Hey, meet my therapist." I mean, they get to decide. But I think if you have some ideas around how to manage that, then it can feel a little bit a little less daunting for them. Because I don't think that they necessarily immediately like, oh, yeah, I live in this community. And I'm walking around with my therapist. Oh. Oh, now I have to think about I don't think that's the first thing they think of when they commit to walk and talk therapy.
Curt Widhalm 50:42
And I've noticed this kind of trend change. And again, I work with younger population teens. Earlier in my career, it was just kind of like, oh, I, I don't want to necessarily, you know, let people know that I'm getting help. And teens these days are just kind of like, you're basically shouting out like, "I'm with my therapists," like this, "You need help this guy's great." Like, I point this out that there has been kind of a lot of these principles and guidelines that were written when therapy was a lot more hidden in the shadows. And I think with a lot more emphasis on mental health, that it's still important for us to have these conversations. My experience and the experience of a lot of the colleagues that I know has been that it's less and less of a concer. We still need to ask the questions, but people aren't is shamed by it in the general population. I know that there's still some cultural considerations where still getting therapy, in some cultures is going to be a sign of mental illness. That's why we still ask, but the trends are pretty positive on this.
Katie Vernoy 52:04
And I think that's very fair. And I think that there are going to be different things based on age differences, on what your role in the world is, I think some folks are fine saying that they're in therapy, but maybe not like "this as my therapist." And so I think, definitely ask, and I think the other element of this is, the confidentiality may be lost more passively. So it's not just somebody coming up to you, but maybe someone noticing that you and your therapist are walking the park every week at the same time, or you're coming to their home every week, you know, in your particular car with your particular, you know, kind of characteristics. And so it's something to consider, because people will be will need to be aware of the types of confidentiality that they're losing by having these types of services. But I'm sure that people that go into your building, most of the people sitting around and going like they're going to therapy, because like how many therapists are in that building? Like a bazillion.
Curt Widhalm 53:09
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 53:10
And so people may lose confidentiality by going to their therapists office. And so I think the location thing I feel a little less concerned about, but I do think it is something to be aware of, and for clients to be aware of, as well.
Curt Widhalm 53:26
And a lot of the confidentiality factors, as a reminder to our clinicians, and to any clients who are maybe hearing this is, confidentiality is only the strongest where you have the expectation of not being seen or heard by a third party. And our discussions up to this point are really that even in the waiting rooms of therapy offices, there's not an expectation of privacy there. So you know, your points of even walking into the building or or walking around, we can point out like, hey, there's not that guarantee of confidentiality, like if we were in my office.
Katie Vernoy 54:11
Sure. I think the other thing and this is kind of a juicy question for us to dig into for a minute or two is boundaries versus confidentiality, and walk and talk maybe you're you're standing closer than the COVID guidelines were and that kind of stuff so you can keep close but really the one that I think is the toughest is if you're going into a client's home, they don't live alone. And I guess if they live alone, there's a whole other thing but the the option for meeting privately is in the client's bedroom. And I think that becomes very complex. It also speaks to the next one we're going to, the next section on dual relationships. But I think this is a really it's it depends for me on the client, sometimes it'll be a meeting with the client in their room, but with the door open, and we're talking quietly, so there's a little bit of space, sometimes it's I'm in the room with the door closed, you know, I think it really is client by client and the type of boundaries that need to be held. But I think there's a lot of a lot of risks that could be in this particular negotiation, because you're either like, hey, we have to be in a public space, and everyone can hear us, or we're in your bedroom and the door is closed.
Curt Widhalm 55:27
And this is also got a whole lot of needing to negotiate things with clients, potentially with parents. And that is something where, you know, being in a child client's bedroom and doing play therapy on the floor, sounds a lot more reasonable. But being behind a closed door with the child's might also be something where their poses risks. So this is not just a matter of any one particular characteristic of a client. And it's something that you need to thoroughly evaluate every single time that you do it and take and document the proper precautions. Document people. Document.
Katie Vernoy 56:12
Just document. And I think the other thing, if there are more than one private room, I think if you can be in a room with the door closed without a bed in it, I think that actually is quite helpful. I think it is a little strange sitting on a client's bed, if that's the only place to sit and you're with an adult client. It just it gets really complicated. And so I think being really aware of what the situation is, documenting it, and if you can't find a good space inside, maybe you just kind of, your head outside. But dual relationships: clearly do not have sex with your clients, there is no sex in professional therapy, or professional therapy does not include sex. That is obvious. That's one of the things about you don't sit on the client's bed, you don't even want to get close to that right. Or maybe you do but you document why it's okay to do that. But we've talked about this before, you also cannot become your clients friend, which can feel very easy if you're hanging out at the park, there's a nice breeze and you're, you know, shooting the breeze and or you're you're hanging out at their house, and they're serving you up a little bit of tea and crumpets. I don't know, there was a lot of British articles when we were reading this, but like, there is a lot of ways where we become very casual, and it can feel very much like a friendship if we don't watch out. And that's, that's potentially a very unhealthy and harmful dual relationship.
Curt Widhalm 57:46
Yeah. And I see this from time to time. And it's really when the therapist stops holding the boundaries. It is not coming back to talking about therapeutic goals, it's relying a little bit too much on the personal shared experiences, rapport building in session, 78, that's, you know, already been well established. That makes it very hard for clients to be able to really differentiate what actual therapy is happening there.
Katie Vernoy 58:27
As we've said before, not all dual relationships are problematic. Of course you don't, you cannot avoid all dual relationships. And in this case, you're going to have some dual relationships that you just have to make sure to navigate becoming their friend or having sex with them, No! But you will be a fellow travele, a fellow walker down the path. You will be potentially in their home. And there may be some host-guest dynamics that you end up having to navigate there. Those things are not necessarily harmful. There's certainly things to pay attention to. And there's a humanity that comes into it. It's just you have to keep coming back to the therapeutic alliance, the professional relationship and the treatment goals. One other thing before we move on is that there are specific needs I think, for folks who are homebound due to medical reasons. And one of the things that they were paying attention to were if you're with a client and doing a therapy session, and they need to roll over and they can't do that themselves, or if they have any other physical needs. There's that that confidentiality boundary thing again, it's like do you keep their home health aide in there with them? Or do you not? And you, you roll them over or you plump up their pillow or those kinds of things. And I think really being comfortable with being a human and holding that with your professional identity I think it's really helpful. I worked for a while with folks who had HIV and AIDS and there were definitely times when, if they were very sick, the relationship by nature needed to shift. And so when I was sitting with them at their bedside, it was going to be something where I might help, I might fluff up their pillow. And it felt particularly connecting, rather than a boundary crossing.
Curt Widhalm 1:00:18
A lot of our traditional advice in this particular area of practice has been, don't do something that is not part of your role. And that's most of, most of the time still going to be the best advice to follow here. And, again, it's consults, it's being able to not take the sole responsibility of these decisions. It's being able to document those boundary crossings and what the effects of them were. But in some of these healthcare type situations that you're talking about, it may end up being where you also then need to advocate for the client to get the kind of help that they need. That is just falling upon you, because you may be the one who's visiting them at that time.
Katie Vernoy 1:01:10
Sure. And I know we talked about when I fell and a client helped me up. But I think if your client falls... Well, I can't touch them. There's no physical contact NASW 1.10 says no. I mean, like, I think we we can be humans and helps up as well. And we can help them across to a curb or something. I mean, I think that there are things that are going to be a little bit different. And I think, certainly consult, don't sit in this in isolation and document. But I think it's more harmful not to be a human in the space, than it is helpful to stick with these really harsh, strong, professional boundaries. As we're running low on time, I want to just mention some therapist concerns, things that we should really consider before getting started. Because I think, you know, that's kind of the last piece. And as we said, we'll we'll make sure that we can put together some ideas around informed consent. And we'll include those in the course that you can get over at moderntherapistcommunity.com. But truly, you want to check on your malpractice insurance as well as liability, make sure that your insurance coverage is complete, so that you can do what you need to do. We've talked about kind of your own logistics around commute or those types of things. Make sure that you think about those things so that you're not unduly burdening yourself or your clients. Certainly make sure that you are doing this for the client's benefit and not solely yours. And truly make sure that you are competent to do these services. It means dig into what we did here. But there's a lot more that can be, can be said about doing these types of services. But also make sure that if part of the reason you're doing these services is due to them being home based, there may be a different different diagnosis, a different type of thing that's happening. And so really consider all the comorbidities, all of the co-occurring disorders. And again, training, consultation, supervision, make sure that you're really doing what you need to do to show up for you in the ways that you can fit these clients.
Curt Widhalm 1:03:20
And document all of your decisions. Continue to consult even if you think that you are an expert in all things non-traditional therapy settings. Don't go at it alone. And check out our show notes. You can find our references there at MTSGpodcast.com. And follow us on our social media, join our Facebook group, The Modern Therapists Group, and listen just a little bit longer. You'll find out how to get your CEs for this episode if you desire. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 1:03:58
Thanks again to our sponsor, Thrizer.
Curt Widhalm 1:04:02
Thrizer is a new billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible and clinicians should earn what they are worth. Every time you build a client through through Thrizer an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the clients insurance. From there Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursements quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by chequ,e confusion around benefits and obscurity with reimbursement status. They allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It's very quick to get set up and it works great in complement with EHR systems.
Katie Vernoy 1:04:41
Their team is super helpful and responsive and the founder is actually a long term therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times. Thrizer lets you become more accessible, while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit therapy. Signup using the link in the show notes if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free you will get one month of no payment processing fees meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time. Check our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com. To get the very special rate at the very special link for our modern therapists. That's MTSGpodcast.com.
Curt Widhalm 1:05:22
This episode is also brought to you by Melissa Forziat Events and Marketing.
Katie Vernoy 1:05:26
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Curt Widhalm 1:05:56
How to Win at Social Media is packed full of information. Usually a course as detailed as this would be priced in the 1000s. But to make it accessible to small businesses it is available for only $247. Plus, as a listener of The Modern Therapist Survival Guide you can use the promo code 'therapy' to get 10% off. So if you are ready to go to the next level in your business, click the link in our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com and sign up for the How to Win at Social Media course today.
Katie Vernoy 1:06:29
Just a quick reminder if you'd like one unit of continuing education for listening to this episode, go to moderntherapistcommunity.com, purchase this course and pass the post test. A CE certificate will appear in your profile once you've successfully completed the steps.
Curt Widhalm 1:06:44
Once again, that's moderntherapistcommunity.com. Hey everyone, Curt and Katie here. If you love this longer form content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education, events and a whole lot more.
Katie Vernoy 1:07:13
If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution, no worries. We also have a Buy me a Coffee profile for one time donations. Support us at whatever level that you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/MTSGpodcast or buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Announcer 1:07:34
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What You Should Know About Walk and Talk Therapy and Other Non-Traditional Counseling Settings Curt and Katie chat about non-traditional therapy settings like outdoor walk and talk therapy as well as home-based counseling. In the first of a two-part, continuing education podcourse series, we look at the basics, including why therapists should consider these settings (and may not), clinical and cultural considerations, and best practices.
In this continuing education podcast episode, we look at non-traditional therapy settings For our third CE-worthy podcourse, we’re looking at the basics of bringing therapy into non-traditional settings, including walk and talk therapy and home visits. We cover a lot of topics in this episode:
What are non-traditional therapy settings? * The focus of this episode is walk and talk and home-based therapy * Client’s locations like home, school, or work; community-based settings * Anything beyond the typical therapy office or telehealth settings are worthy of consideration * Creativity and collaboration in creating the space * How different the therapy can be when opening up more settings as possibilities
Why should therapists consider these non-traditional therapy settings? * Logistical considerations that can lead to these settings being the ideal choice (or only choice) * Clinical indications that walk and talk or home-based therapy is a better choice * The impact on changing settings on the therapeutic relationship and the therapeutic work * Specific modalities that are best served by client-centered spaces * Assessment, treatment teaming * How access, attendance, and attrition are impacted * The therapeutic impact of the settings and movement
What are the hesitations therapists have in considering alternative settings for therapy? * The challenges in creating systems and managing the logistics * Lack of alignment with the medical model * Lack of training and guidance * Legal and Ethical considerations (that will be talked about in next week’s episode)
What are the clinical and cultural considerations when doing therapy outside or in someone’s home? * Navigating the shifting relationship and boundaries * Cultural differences between therapist and client, and assumptions made about the relationship * The importance of leading the conversation about these relationships * Hospitality and others who may be present at a client’s home * The unusual space, the level of confidentiality, and emotional containment and depth of conversation * Treatment planning based on where you meet and how the client interacts with the space * The importance of the clinician holding the therapeutic space and attention * Creating the space and the contract for how therapy will happen * Cultural norms for the activities and for the client and family – more complexity to discuss
Clinical How-To for Non-traditional Settings * Assessment considerations * Client and clinician characteristics * Alignment with treatment goals and presenting concerns * Presenting issues can vary and assessment can be important * Initial assessment appointments and making the decision early in treatment * Treatment Formulation related to active versus passive interaction with the space * The importance of true informed consent and the dynamic nature of process contracting * Introducing predictability * Risk assessment * Knowing your scope and what types of professionals you might consider consulting
Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Dr. Tequilla Hill The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative, and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
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Cooley, S.J., Jones, C.R., Kurtz, A., & Robertson, N. (2020). ‘Into the Wild’: A meta-synthesis of talking therapy in natural outdoor spaces. Clinical Psychology Review, 77, 101841. ISSN 0272-7358, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cpr.2020.101841.
Donachy, G.S. (2020). Psychotherapy outside the consulting room: ending therapy during the global pandemic, Journal of Child Psychotherapy, 46:3, 373-379, DOI: 10.1080/0075417X.2021.1903065
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Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Dual Relationships: Pros and Cons
Post Pandemic Practice
What Clients Want
Shared Traumatic Experiences
The Balance Between Boundaries and Humanity (an interview with Dr. Jamie Marich)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists ethics committee, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, lecturer in Counseling Laws and Ethics at California State University Northridge, a former Law & Ethics Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and former CFO of CAMFT. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, with a Master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from California State University, Fullerton and a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Theater from Occidental College in Los Angeles, California. Katie has always loved leadership and began stepping into management positions soon after gaining her license in 2005. Katie’s experience spans many leadership and management roles in the mental health field: program coordinator, director, clinical supervisor, hiring manager, recruiter, and former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. Now in business for herself, Katie provides therapy, consultation, or business strategy to support leaders, visionaries, and helping professionals in pursuing their mission to help others. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of The Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by Dr. Tequilla Hill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Dr. Tequilla Hill a mindful entrepreneur, yoga and somatic meditation teacher has curated How to Stay Well While You Work! Therapist Wellness Guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self care. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to learn more.
Announcer 00:40
You're listening to The Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:56
Hey, modern therapists, we're so excited to offer the opportunity for one unit of continuing education for this podcast episode. Once you've listened to this episode, to get CE credit, you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com, register for your free profile, purchased this course pass the post test and complete the evaluation. Once that's all completed, you'll get a CE certificate in your profile, where you can download it for your records. For a current list of our CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com
Katie Vernoy 01:28
Once again, hop over to moderntherapistcommunity.com. For one CE once you've listened. Woo hoo!
Curt Widhalm 01:35
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and this is one of our continuing education eligible episodes. Today we are doing a dive into therapy in non traditional settings.
Katie Vernoy 01:55
So when we were thinking about doing a continuing education podcast episode, one of the things that I was thinking about are the types of questions that I get a lot. And the topic for today is non traditional therapy settings. This is something I've done for most of my career, I worked in milieu settings. I've done walk and talk therapy. I've done playing at a playground and a school therapy, I've done home visits. And so I wanted to make sure in this first episode that we have the foundational knowledge of what it is. So I get a lot of basic questions about what do you do? How do you do it? What are the logistics? And then I also think there are folks who just aren't going to consider it because they don't know why to do it, and what benefit it has. And so for folks who are listening, we have two episodes this week is a basic 101, what are these non traditional settings? How do you do them? What are some best practices? Beginning level course. And then next week, Curt and I are going to really dig into the ethics and nuance. But we wanted to make sure you had the basics before we dug into it further. For folks who've been doing it and aren't sure they're doing it right. This is a great reminder of like, these are the things to consider. And these are some of the logistics that might go into place and making this a clinically appropriate service for your clients. Even before the pandemic hit many different types of therapeutic programs are happening outside of the office. I know we've all heard about kind of like the adventure camps and different things for folks. You know, oftentimes kids, troubled teens, there was a lot of different things going on. I mean, I in researching this, I found a lot of folks doing walk and talk therapy. Certainly when I was coming up in community mental health, we were doing home based therapy. But I think because of the pandemic, I think it gave a lot of us an idea of like, wait a second, if I don't want to keep my office and/or if I want to be outdoors and not inside with someone, what are my options for therapy if someone just can't handle the screen of telehealth? And so I think it's it's something where, to me, I've started doing this, I thought it was really exciting. And I wanted to share with everyone kind of I've get lots of questions about how do you do this stuff. And so I figured, why not do a deep dive on it.
Curt Widhalm 04:12
We're actually going to make this part one of a two part series here. This first episode is going to focus more on the hows and the whats of doing. Our second episode is going to dive into some of the legal and ethical considerations. You'll get a flavor of that in this episode. But this is really more of the hows of going about this. So Katie, first let's start with talking about like, what kind of therapy settings are we talking about here?
Katie Vernoy 04:46
I think the primary thing we're going to talk about in the episode will be home based and walk and talk but I want to reiterate that there is so much flexibility on where we can do therapy and so some of the types of settings that you might want to be considering and kind of extrapolating out to, could be home/school/work. So kind of the clients locations, outdoor therapy can be walk and talk, but it can also be like groups and and retreats and different things. I mean that that's probably a little bit beyond the scope of this. But I've gone to medical facilities, I've gone to social services buildings with folks, wellness centers, out in the community, when there's just not a great place to meet, you can meet at a restaurant or a library or a church or a YMCA. I've actually done therapy with folks in the car on the way somewhere. And when I was working in substance abuse treatment, this is something that's been around for a long time, too. There's kind of the milieu setting, but there's also like camping and other things. And so there's, there's a lot of times when therapy can be happening and a lot of places where therapy can be happening. But it has a lot of things to consider, especially within relationship and confidentiality. But we'll dig deeper into that.
Curt Widhalm 06:03
I'm hearing this just from the get go as not in the traditional office setting, basically anything else goes and it speaks to just that so much of what we're allowed to assume can happen is in the nature of a four walled sort of office someplace. And that's the reason to look at that even with many of our listeners, possibly having done non traditional therapy, during the course of the COVID 19 pandemic, that there might be some considerations in here or to be able to evaluate some of the effectiveness of how we're going about that. So this isn't just going out and doing what we've been doing in the office outside, though, it's not like, you know, I'm not doing EMDR and just waving my hand in front of somebody while they're walking.
Katie Vernoy 07:00
I think that would be tough. That would require a lot of coordination. I think it really varies. But I think, and we'll go into a lot of this more in depth, but I want to get a kind of a higher level overview. I think it always is important to start with kind of a collaborative assessment of appropriateness. And so it's a conversation you have with your client, you want to make sure that you're doing all of these things. We'll talk about that later. And then once you've decided, yep, this is for my client, or the client says, "Yep, this is for me," you meet wherever the designated place is that are, which could involve logistics and timing, it could be two people meeting in a single place. I mean, there's some stuff there that can be interesting. You could meet in a place and you could kind of passively engage with it, meaning I'm doing regular therapy, but it's outside or I'm doing regular therapy, but it's at the client's home, or you could engage with a space, you know, you're interacting with nature, you're interacting with the family or setting something up at their home. There's also a huge shift in the treatment relationship and so there's, and again, this is high level, we'll go into this in more detail. But there's more of an equality there, because you're experiencing something together, potentially even there's a shift in the power dynamic. If you're going into their home, you want, there's always going to be the planning for confidentiality, which if you've got your little office and your noise machine, like you're pretty clear that you're keeping confidentiality. And then there's also the environment, which could be very uncertain. I think that for some folks, they have a modality that they do. And so some people are just home based, or some just do walk and talk, I find I've not added homebase to my current practice. But I find having a flexibility there can be interesting, but then it could be that you're like, navigating with the client, are we meeting at the park today, are we going to be on video or we're going to be in my office. And so there can be some systems and different things in your business practice that you want to consider. It's an interesting type of therapy, because there's a lot of possibilities. But there's a lot of uncertainty that can come into play, because it's not an environment that you've carefully curated with all of your professional certifications and your comfy chair, or it's not that video setting that you've potentially done the same and then the client has created their own space too. So it's it's a different type of treatment.
Curt Widhalm 09:19
I've done some of this kind of work mostly back when I was pre licensed and newly licensed and part of it was the agency job that I had. But one of the things that you're talking about that brought back some memories is just the client approach to therapy can be a lot different when you're coming into their space than it is with them coming in. I noticed that my clients were a lot more cooperative when they started coming to my office. There was almost kind of like, alright, I'm buying into needing to be in the space. But some of those clinical factors that come up, some of what might be called defenses, would maybe show up when therapist is coming into their space. I'm guessing these are some of the things that we're going to be talking about as far as just kind of the hesitations that we have of approaching therapy in a different way. And also just kind of needing some interventions or conceptualization differences when we do approach therapy in this way.
Katie Vernoy 10:21
Of course, yeah.
Curt Widhalm 10:22
Before we get into that stuff, though, why might we be put into this situation in the first place? Why? What are some of the either client or world factors that might be reasons that we need to see clients outside of our traditional offices?
Katie Vernoy 10:39
Well, I think the reason that a lot of folks potentially are revisiting these thoughts are because the office doesn't work and in person is needed. And so for me, sometimes it's been lack of efficacy with telehealth or privacy, it could be just kind of needing to get your eyes on a client and not feeling comfortable in an in office setting. Maybe you don't even have an office anymore. A lot of people gave up their office and so having this possibility of either meeting them at their home or in a public space can be really helpful. I think the other thing, and this is something where you say like, why would we be in this situation, it actually can be a situation where a client is not comfortable with telehealth and not comfortable being in an enclosed space for an hour, because of COVID or because it's feels too constraining or the eye contact is too weird. And so like walk and talk can be actually a better option for them. With home based, sometimes there's this, you know, sometimes it can be mobility and transportation issues, it could be like, my client can't leave their house, I need to get my eyes on them, I'm going to go out there. But sometimes it can be a clinical issue, where being in the home makes sense, you get to see their full, you get a full assessment of their environment, how they interact with their environment. I know when I was working in community mental health work, there was this notion of like, if you're providing interventions, that requires two or three rooms, and they actually only have one, you know, like set up a homework station or whatever. Like, there's a lot that you don't know, especially if your clients aren't telling you when they come into your office, or even they don't show you on your on your screen, right. They're just in this little curated space, maybe with a a filter in the back. And so I think oftentimes it can be a client choice because of what the other options are, as well as a clinician choice. It also shakes things up. And so it can, it can decrease the stuckness that you're feeling or they're feeling in their treatment. There's a hesitance, and we'll go into hesitations a little bit more, but there's a hesitance to break out of kind of that expert cocoon, but it can decrease formality and distance and it can make things less curated and professional. So it it shifts the relationship and then for a lot of folks that can be very positive, and it may be more aligned with a theoretical orientation.
Curt Widhalm 13:04
I'm also imagining some of the client considerations that might come up, might end up being a more effective way of bringing some interventions to life and thinking of things like exposure and response prevention, OCD, or even potentially working with clients with eating disorders, who might need more clinical support in environments where it's either making food or generalizing some of the food related issues into eating out and other examples like that.
Katie Vernoy 13:38
Absolutely, I think it's something where there are different benefits, obviously, to the different math methods. But sometimes it is an obvious clinical choice, if you open up your mind to I could be with my client in another space, I can be with them at their home, I can be with them in a public space. I mean, like talk about specific phobias of bugs, I mean, like, you can actually be with them in these spaces, you know, there were clients with social phobia, that you go to the home and you slowly move them back to the office or slowly get them to the office and and help them with those things. So I think it's really something where being very, very, very thoughtful can be helpful. But I did do a little bit of research, and I'll share some of that with you for the two specific environments that we're talking about. Because I think it's helpful to recognize some, some efficacy that goes beyond like, oh, well, we could do ERP together in the right setting. Right? So with the home environment, like I said, you can do a better assessment of them in their environment, but you can also recruit community members to support the client and treatment if it's appropriate. So you can have family, you can have the school or a treatment team, you can you can pull folks in who are more likely to attend in that space than making the trek to your office, because they might just be there. Or it might be more of a comfortable setting. It increases access and attendance. It also can decrease attrition. So there were there were a study done with children and and vets where the efficacy of telehealth and in home in person were pretty similar. But people who had in home therapy were more likely to complete the treatment they were they stayed in it longer. And so there was a higher level of efficacy there. For homebound clients that are homebound for medical reasons, you can actually get treatment to them. And then you can also when you use this for crisis management, and you're coming to someone's home, you can do I think, obviously, better safety planning, and all of those things, but it actually decreased hospitalizations. On the walk and talk side that was really interesting. There, I was looking at a lot of different articles. And one of my favorite articles was Coaching Whilst Walking In Nature or something. And there was a lot of these use of the word 'whilst' which really made me very excited.
Curt Widhalm 16:07
Very British. Oh, yeah.
Katie Vernoy 16:08
Very British. So when you walk and talk, whilst outdoors, the setting itself was seen to be very, very beneficial. Just being outdoors being in nature. And some studies showed this as the most beneficial element that people identified was just being outside, kind of being in nature. And so that, in and of itself has a clinical benefit, just going outside doing nothing else just going outside. And some people actually would like, walk out of their office and just sit outside like, that was their outdoor therapy. And that showed benefit. If you also do kind of the physical activity, there's going to be more blood to the brain, there's better processing, and even though walking side by side, I'm sure as an EMDR person, you understand the bilateral movement here? But they were saying that experiential processing is also enhanced while doing that activity: increased creativity, learning and memory, I mean, all these things are amazing, right? You might have new insights, or even like the physical release and being more embodied, because you're actually moving while you're talking and doing those things. I think the other thing is, I don't walk the whole time. But during the time that you're walking, you don't have eye contact, you're still connected. And there's there's some downsides to that. But there's also this, it's less intense. And there's a different energy in that, that I think some clients find more beneficial. I think that the the biggest piece that is really for both of these, but especially in walk and talk is that you... you're really... there's a different way you're relating to each other. When we're sitting together and either we see on the screen just a little bit of space, or we just kind of walk into a room and sit down. There's there's information we don't get. And so when you walk together, there's just a whole different level of relational embodiment, that happens in the relationship. And I think for some clients, the the lack of formality, especially in the outdoor setting can be very helpful. So those are the reasons why to do it. But there are some hesitations. But I'm curious, before I jump into my list, what hesitations do you have, in thinking about doing these types of therapies, or these types of settings.
Curt Widhalm 18:26
I can come up with a number of them, but I know that we're going to address a lot of them in the law and ethics part two part of this conversation. But some of the concerns that are going to come up is just like, how do you manage, like getting all of this stuff set up? That whether it's client or therapist familiarity to just kind of the way things always have been. But clinically, I'm also having some concerns of like, if it just ends up becoming being in an environment that's too distracting, and clients don't end up retaining the information that actually gets talked about because they're more focused on walking.
Katie Vernoy 19:11
And that's fair. And I think that's part of the assessment. I think, the the logistical pieces, we'll talk about that next time. But I think there are a lot of logistics that may seem daunting, that actually aren't that daunting, especially if you've got good systems to start out with. But a lot of folks are really hesitant because it's not aligned with the medical model. And so this really pulls away from that, you know? If I'm telling the psychiatrist or medical doctor, "Yeah, I'm meeting my client in the park," depending on their perspective, they may lose respect for me and the work that I'm doing, right? There's not a lot of research, I think that's changing but the lack of training and guidance can be pretty daunting for folks because it's like, well, how do I get myself to a place that I'm doing this right? And of course, you know, confidentiality, dual relationships, informed consent... to be continued in the next episode. But I think that there's a lot of hesitations around it. But I think if you address them clinically, you know, some of the stuff you're talking about, I think it can be pretty effective. It's not effective for everyone. And I think there's different settings that are better for different folks. But I think that's the reason to make sure that you truly understand what you're doing so that you can get a handle on that.
Curt Widhalm 20:28
And, you know, if we can segue here for a quick moment is that, well, a lot of what we get taught ends up being in that traditional therapeutic talk space. I don't think any of us are actually inventing, doing walk and talk therapy, this has been around in some environment or another that while it might not be the most, you know, clinical trials, you know, replicated sort of things, there's plenty of qualitative studies that indicate what makes these things successful.
Katie Vernoy 21:00
Yeah, and I'll put links to some of the stuff that I found in the show notes. I think there's more and more lately, especially with the pandemic, especially for walk and talk because of people transitioning outdoors, and there's all kinds of positive kind of tales of how effective this is. And yet, I think that there are some clinical and cultural considerations to keep in mind, because I think as I was reading, I was getting super excited, I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna do more of this, this is gonna be amazing!" And then I, you know, then you calm down and think about, you know, but it's not really right for every client. And there are things to think about.
Curt Widhalm 21:40
So what might be some of those considerations of who would be a good candidate for it? Or who might not be a good candidate for it?
Katie Vernoy 21:51
Well, there's, there's a few different times I'll address that because I think that's a really good question. I think the first one is, you want to make sure you have a client that can navigate the shift in the relationship, I think there are clients who may become, I don't know if confused is the right word, but they might, they might have a challenge in really being able to navigate the shift to a more informal relationship. There's a lot of boundaries that could be crossed. I think about when you're outside, for example, like you're going to be wearing different clothes, most likely, so that are appropriate to get dirty in or appropriate to sweat in or walk, like wearing tennis shoes. So even in kind of how you're showing up, that would be very interesting. I mean, there's, there's the whole hospitality, if you're going to a client's home, and they become the host to you, or their parents do, or, or they don't, and you're kind of stuck trying to navigate a home environment that isn't yours. And so with those, all of those boundaries, I think the client has to be able to hang with that. And the clinician does, too. I think I was reading somewhere that clinicians or a clinician, it was one of those qualitative studies was talking about how they felt this impulse to become a friend of the person they were hanging out with. And so it's something where as a clinician, and we'll definitely go into this in the law and ethics portion of this, but those strong boundaries, and that professional persona that can kind of be in every setting. And I think that's the thing that maybe this is important, too, for a little bit of a side note.. But what I learned a lot of in my community mental health was really strong professional boundaries and professional presence in every setting, while still being personal, still showing up as myself, you know, whether I was camping, or whether I was walking with someone or playing basketball out on the court outside and at their school, like, I would show up as a professional while still being me and personal. And I think there may be another podcast episode on just how to do that. I think we actually did talk about some of that at some point. So I'll look through and we can put some of those other episodes in the show notes. But the boundaries are so dynamic and fluid, that it becomes very different to manage than just coming into your office and sitting down or popping onto a screen. I think another thing that it was very stark for me in public mental health, but maybe stark for others in different settings, is that there's there's potentially very strong cultural differences between you and the person that you're showing up at their house or you're walking in public. And so I think being able to navigate what is it going to look like if the two of us are walking around outside? Or what is it going to look like if I show up to your house every week? Like what are what are the assumptions going to be made? What impact is that going to have on you? And we'll talk about the confidentiality elements of that on the next episode, but the clinical and interpersonal or kind of therapeutic relationship elements of that, it becomes more obvious the cultural differences, potentially even socio economic differences that show up when you're experiencing things together.
Curt Widhalm 25:22
Tell me more about that because I didn't work in community mental health and B: when I was doing this kind of work, it was more local to neighborhoods that I was already in. So maybe some of those cultural differences weren't quite as apparent in the way that this showed up.
Katie Vernoy 25:40
Well, I think about clients who are racially or ethnically different from me, or very different ages, so if I have an older person walking with me, who is ethnically different from me, are there assumptions that are being made? If I'm a, you know, a white person in formal attire, in a nice car coming into a neighborhood that typically is, you know, below the poverty line? And there's a lot going on, am I... do they assume that I'm a social worker, or caseworker of some sort? You know, more like, are they getting in trouble? You know, I think there's can be assumptions made and and I've even thought about with certain clients, like, I hope that there is an acceptance and an inclusion and everybody can be seen together and all those things, but people are more and less likely to be seen together. And there was a situation where a client of mine, a black woman, and I were walking, and someone came up to us and talked about how beautiful it was that the two people together, friends, you know, and the assumption, I'm glad the assumption was not that I was her social worker or her therapist. But it was interesting, because it certainly brought the conversation of race into that session, as we moved along, away from that person to talk about, like, what does it mean that there are the two of us here? And how do we feel about what he said, and, and so it definitely is something where any differences really show up. And it becomes, unless you try to avoid it, it becomes clinical fodder, which I think can be very helpful.
Curt Widhalm 27:25
I guess that's something that I didn't really experience in my work, because for a lot of the community outings that I was doing, it didn't seem like it was necessarily a therapist, it was maybe more observable as being a, I don't know, a babysitter or something like that, because of working with kids, or, you know, just being somebody who's out, you know, on a basketball court or a playground with somebody. Yeah, I'm sure that these days, if I was to do the same thing, it might look more like a dad or... But what I am hearing from you is lead some of the conversation or at least open that up to make it clinically relevant to help deepen what the therapeutic goals might be.
Katie Vernoy 28:14
Well, I think, sure, deepen the therapeutic goals, but I think it truly is, is really address the relationship. Because to me, if you don't, a client may feel uncomfortable saying, like, I don't want to be seen in public with you, or I don't want you coming to my house. And so I think having that, that openness and directness, and this is what like, this is what it'll look like and this is how our relationship may change. The client can opt into that. I know, there's other things besides the relationship, but let me see if there's any other points that I want to make on that. I think the other clinical consideration around the relationship, I think, is truly how you navigate. I mean, maybe it's the hospitality. But it's, but it's, it's whether it's hospitality, and like they want to offer you food and drink or, you know, they want to, to invite someone else and introduce you to someone or those kinds of things, or if there's a potential for kind of an advocacy and a dual role, where you're all of a sudden, you know, kind of standing up for them...in a situation, I guess, this goes into more like family therapy, but like with a with a family member that pops in or whatever or or how you navigate if someone comes up. So I mean, I think there's the relationship becomes more fluid and you're more experiencing things together on an even level. And you have to make sure that your client can roll with that. Because if they can't, if they're a little bit more rigid, or if they'll be confused by where the boundaries actually lie, it could be something that you have to kind of manage clinically ahead of time before you even consider these types of settings.
Curt Widhalm 29:57
This also seems to be another place where some of those cultural differences would come in, because, you know, in many cultures, just kind of that host role is going to end up really being something that, well, we might have kind of our traditional therapists kind of, you know, needing to evaluate every little thing. That might mean that we need to be more accepting or need to be more open to some of the different things that are unexpected. It's like being able to kind of roll with the punches here a little bit.
Katie Vernoy 30:35
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think if therapists can't roll with the punches, they probably shouldn't consider these types of therapies. Because if you're in someone's home, unless it's a gigantic home with a specific space dedicated for your therapy treatment, you know, people might barge in, there might be phones ringing, there might be pets, I mean, there's, there's a lot of stuff that could be happening. But in an outdoor space, unless it's a private space that only you own, you're gonna be interacting with other folks. And there's, there's a lot of things that can come up. I mean, that segues nicely into the next kind of consideration that I put down here, which was kind of the unusual space. I mean, to me, this is a big one, you know, I think navigating the relationship, I think you and I both are fairly informal, I think a lot of our 'modern therapists' are more authentic with their clients. So this is not, that's not a big stretch. But navigating this space. My goodness. That is a tough one, I think, sure, there's confidentiality issues. And we'll talk about those in depth as far as how you cover the base there. But the depth of conversation is actually a consideration. If it's a very private outdoor space, maybe someone can really kind of maneuver into deeper conversations. But in some ways, it may be more of a practical conversation, it may be more of a coping skills conversation, at times, it could be a little bit more cerebral, and, and my style is a bit more cerebral, so it works for me. But in an article I was reading, and it was a case study, it was talking about how when he moved his client into an outdoor space, she was actually more emotionally contained and able to engage with a treatment more versus kind of this uncontained emotion of either being in his office or being on the phone in her own home. And so the, the moderating effect of the environment is one that is really important to consider, because, especially if you're going to use more than one environment, because you can have a more contained conversation out in public, you might have someone completely boundaryless in their own home, because it's my own home, and they're laying around and doing what they do normally in their own home. And then in your office, it's your setting. And so they may show up and be like you said, a little bit more compliant, a little more bought in. And so to me being able to figure out how is this client going to respond to this setting. And that may be something you don't know until you actually go there. And then how it's going to impact the types of conversation, the types of emotional reactions, regulation, you know, all of those different things like the level of emotional containment, I think, is really important to consider.
Curt Widhalm 33:32
And I think once again, you're gonna see where diagnostics probably are a consideration as far as the kinds of material that you end up talking about out there. That, you know, well, being more contained with something like anxiety and being able to operate out in the environment in a way that's, you know, self edited in case somebody sees what's happening. That's quite a bit different than working on deep childhood trauma.
Katie Vernoy 34:03
Of course. And I think it's something where, as part of the treatment planning, for some of my clients, I've talked about going back and forth to the office or telehealth based on what we're working on. And I think that there are also some folks who are actually more likely to dig deeper outside, because we're walking and it's just two people walking, you know, we're keep moving, and they're more comfortable, and there's more of a free flow. And so it can almost even be client by client, sometimes. The most important thing about being outside or being in another space that's not your own clinical curated space, is that you have to be able to hold the clinical space while facing the uncertainty of the experience. Like that is your job.
Curt Widhalm 34:54
Tell me more about what kind of risks that that brings up?
Katie Vernoy 34:59
Well, it is something where it's kind of like you becoming your own transitional object. And I just made that up. So, so bear with me if it sounds ridiculous, but when your client is with you and you're outdoors, the space that you're holding is really more emotional, because you're walking. So it's, it could be the distance that you're apart from each other, it could be, I actually walked slower with some clients, so that they don't speed through and are out of breath and distracted by the walking. And so I moderate the pace a little bit. In a home setting, it could be identifying with the client, how you're going to hold that space together. But you have to remain present, while walking, while interacting with pets if they're not locked up, while paying attention to birds flying by or planes flying by. But like you have to stay present and keep the setting in place. Because if you're distracted, or you're too worried about walking, or whatever, you're not holding the clinical space.
Curt Widhalm 36:06
How could you see someone not doing this well, like and what the potential impacts that that might have on therapy going forward?
Katie Vernoy 36:16
I think if people are really distracted, and in truth, when I first started walk and talk therapy, we were wearing masks and walking. And so it can be hard to hear. Being in a home and being in a setting where there's constantly noise or someone coming in and there's constant distractions, it's equivalent to having therapy on Zoom, with a really bad internet connection... I know a lot of people can can relate to that. But it's this thing where you have to keep coming back and keep coming back. Which is weird, because when you're in a space together, there's more verbal fluency, you're not waiting for the connection to pick up. And there's also a lot of physical interaction that you're having, as far as you can see their nonverbals. And so if you're really really distracted and worried about how you're stepping or those kinds of things, the the ability to miss the really important things is very high. Or to be too impacted by the environment. So you know, there's some loud noise that happens, you both interact with it. And if it's not, like, hey, they were their anxiety shot up, and blah, blah, and it's clinical, but like being completely distracted, kids are playing at the park, it triggers them, and you keep watching the kids and you're not really actually processing what the trigger is, you're just enjoying the kids, you know, playing. You know, I think it's something that could be harmful if you're not paying attention to what's actually in the environment, how we're interacting with it. And what I need to bring up.
Curt Widhalm 37:53
In doing this, it's having a plan, it's kind of being able to plan ahead, it's not just kind of assuming that what's happening in the office is going to magically happen, just while you're in motion out in the neighborhood. It's probably for the therapist having you know, an experience, you know, of what your walking path might be, and knowing kind of where, okay, this is the hot spot where all of the walking moms in the neighborhood get together and chit chat. And that might be a time where we kind of need to veer away for a little bit or, you know, this is where, you know, anything else happens along the way, the one really obnoxious, barking dog,you know.
Katie Vernoy 38:38
And I think the point that you just made is a really important one. If you are the person that are setting the environment, so like I picked a park by my office, you want to walk the route, you want to make sure you're aware of the things and it could be different at different times. And sometimes you can't predict all the variables you can't do... you can't account for everything that's going to happen. You know, sometimes there's going to be a baseball game in the middle of the day, and you had no idea. And so you're there's a lot more people than normal. But, but in environments that you don't know, like a client's home, when you go the first time, the client is really setting the pace, you know, and that's part of informed consent that we can talk about, but like, what is it going to look like? Do we have a space? Am I going to get to your home and we're going to take off and go somewhere else? You know, like what does it look like? But if you can do whatever you can to create a sense of predictability, and that's one of the steps we'll talk about later, I think the more you know about the environment, the more you know about the potential risks and uncertainties, the better you're going to be able to navigate and hold that space for the client.
Curt Widhalm 39:46
Is there cultural considerations to consider out in what we're calling the unusual space here?
Katie Vernoy 39:53
The first thing is identifying the cultural norms within a client's home for example, or how they interact in public. I think there's having those conversations around how you want to show up, and it could be even, and without requiring too much education from the client, but requiring it, you know, asking, is there anything I need to be aware of in coming to your home? You know, are there safety concerns? That's, you know, that's a separate topic. But are there other things that would be helpful for you and your family if I either did or didn't do. One of the articles I read talked about taking off your shoes in a Japanese home or, or other types of things that you may want to consider, even attire, what is going to be appropriate for the activity, but what's also going to be respectful to the family? Like if you show up in, like, a full sweat suit, is that going to be seen as appropriate to the family? Because they know you're going to go out in the backyard and play basketball with the client, or is it going to be seen as disrespectful and unprofessional? And so I think there's looking at how you navigate the relationship with the client, as well as any cultural factors specific to the family or the client, it really comes down to conversation. But I think it's also just finding your own way of showing up that feels like it can kind of go across those things. You know, I think always entering with curiosity and humility, I think can always be very helpful, asking for clarification, if needed. But I think, as I mentioned before, I think within the relationship or even within the space, you want to make sure that you're really paying attention to how you show up, and how you show up in relationship with the client.
Curt Widhalm 41:37
So I'm imagining that for these kinds of considerations, if you're seeing multiple clients in a row, and do you just like bring costume changes for in between sessions?
Katie Vernoy 41:50
Hopefully not, hopefully not. I know that, that people who do a lot of these things back to back, find their professional attire, that they appreciate whether it's, you know, a really nice comfy pair of jeans, and good looking tennis shoes or whatever. But I think it's something where it may be appropriate to to have some changes of attire. But I think that also lends to, you know, making sure that you are not forgetting, scheduling and all those other things. So I guess we're gonna talk about that in the next episode, but...but I think being able to show up on time, you know, with traffic or showing up, not out of breath, because you ran from the last walk and talk session, like I think all of those things, you know, there's a lot to consider.
Curt Widhalm 42:39
So, being appropriate to each of the particular clients and cultural considerations as you're going there. Let's dive into the clinical work now. Like, how are we doing this? You know, it's not just like, Alright, here's the CBT workbook out in watching the band, or it's not finger waving, like EMDR, while we, you know, walking backwards, like a college tour guides, like, what are some of the considerations that we're gonna do here?
Katie Vernoy 43:12
Okay, so some of this is kind of the clinical how to, I got a great starting point from Cooley et al, 2020, 'Into the Wild': A meta-synthesis of talking therapy in natural outdoor spaces. I think it provides good information on the uncertainties of the settings. And I think it really a lot of it applies to home settings as well, obviously, some of this is, you know, I've got other stuff from other articles and from my own experience, but that's really the the foundational article that kind of gave me the best practices as they were. So you want to start with the assessment and formulation. We've talked about this a little bit. But I think truly, and Curt and I are talking about putting together a full assessment kind of considerations worksheet for you, so we'll have that with the course, when we put this out there. But I think that the first thing that you really want to look at is, is the client suitable. And so we talked about some of the flexibility and the ability to manage the relationship, but more specifically, are they physically suitable for it? Which we'll talk about accessibility issues in our next episode. Are they clinically suitable, and are there potential benefits for you to actually do this treatment with them? And so really kind of everything we talked about, that is what you want. That's the first kind of point of the assessment. You also want to make sure it aligns with treatment goals. And obviously, there's a very broad array of treatment goals that could be helped or hindered by a non traditional therapy treatment, but like, specifically, if we're looking at a client who has a lot of conflict with family, doing family therapy at the home, getting as many family members as possible could be very aligned with treatment goals. Whereas a client that's wanting to learn individuation, going and meeting them in their home, you might be swimming upstream if the family is very kind of everybody's present, and you're trying to do some of that work. You also want to make sure you want to do a self assessment about your own characteristics. If you're going to be outside, you want to have an affinity for nature, if you're freaking out, every time you see a bog, that's not a good match for you. You want to make sure that you have the flexibility to be able to navigate the different environments and you have to have some confidence about it. If you're really uncertain, either going into a client's home or going outdoors, you're gonna have a hard go of it. Client characteristics for outdoor therapy, you definitely want to have them to have an attraction to natural spaces, unless you're working on some sort of a specific phobia. You don't want them freaked out in the environment. And even then, you don't want them freaked out. Like it could be just like a kind of a ladder there.
Curt Widhalm 45:59
Sure. I think this might be an important thing. Let's dive into what is the alignment with treatment goals? What do you mean by that?
Katie Vernoy 46:08
We'll talk about kind of the client characteristics that might make this a better setting. And if it's just client characteristics, it would not be necessarily most important to align it with treatment goals. But if it does align with treatment goals, it can be really, really rich and positive. And so when we look at aligning whatever the mechanism is, with treatment goals, I think it needs to be a match and needs to be a clinical match. And there has to be a rationale. Like if you're just going outside, because it sounds like fun and the client doesn't really care one way or the other and it then it negatively impacts the the treatment. Obviously bad. But if you've got a client who is trying to feel more embodied, they're just ahead walking around, then they're just all thoughts, no anything else, I think being able to be more physically active during a session and allow some more of that embodiment would be aligned with the goals, for example. I think for the home setting, you know, some of the alignment could be around helping them set up their own systems, and whether it's managing executive functioning skills, or whether it's interacting with the people around them, or whatever it is, I mean, certainly you've talked about, like ERP and eating disorders, you know, kind of the big ones that make the most sense. But even making sure that what we're doing is in support of the goals and is not going to hinder the goals. Sometimes if that's the only place you can meet like, it's only home visits, there's nothing you can do, and I think a lot of mental health, that's kind of what it is.
Curt Widhalm 47:48
Sure, sure.
Katie Vernoy 47:49
You may be you may be swimming upstream, like I said earlier, but I think it's, it's something where if you can use the environment, as part of a, you know, and where you're meeting and how you're meeting in support, in direct support of the treatment goals, I think it can be very, very helpful.
Curt Widhalm 48:06
Okay, then, are there some clients characteristics that also are part of this conversation that may impact how well they're going to respond in a non traditional environment?
Katie Vernoy 48:20
Yes, I think the clients who showed the biggest affinity for outdoor therapy already had an attraction in their natural spaces, or felt a healing, previous healing experience outside, or those types of things, you want to make sure that you're assessing if they've had a trauma outside, or there might be triggers out there. I mean, that doesn't necessarily preclude using an outdoor space, but you want to make sure that you're thoughtful about it. If you have a client who is comfortable with having you into their home, and comfortable being at home, that helps to a certain extent, obviously, the reverse could be clinical fodder, and, and part of a treatment plan. And I think the other thing that I really found with my own clients is if there's a discomfort with conventional therapy, they're very excited about these other options. Because 'I don't want to sit still, for an hour, looking you in the eyes, like that sounds like torture, I'm never going to do that.' And so for me, some of the clients just it was like, they become the big team themselves in doing that. And that was really exciting to see. Similarly, I think as clinicians, we need to if we're going to be outside, we should have an affinity for nature and not be freaked out by every bug that comes by or be very flexible in how we interact with nature. And so we need to know that about ourselves. And so that assessment, I guess, is not one that's necessarily in each individual assessment, but one that we want to make sure that we're confident professionally that we can, can enter the space.
Curt Widhalm 49:54
Well, okay, so now you're talking about the client and the clinician, go into one of my favorites things... There's also the relationship here. There's always spaces for shifts in relationships, if it's adding or subtracting somebody from the therapy room, if it's something where being in a different space, you know, a lot of us went through this in the pandemic of 'saw people in person now we're seeing you online,' some people made that shift to doing walking talk at the time. What kinds of things have you seen or come across that talks about how that might shift that therapeutic alliance?
Katie Vernoy 50:33
Well, we talked about this a bit before, but I think in the assessment, you're going to want to make sure that the client can navigate into a less formal relationship. And knowing more about you, I mean, I wear a hat, I wear a baseball cap outside, I certainly would not do that on the screen. And I'm not going to do that in my office. And so the lack of formality, the humaneness that you're bringing as a clinician, and just navigating on the boundaries, I think I can't emphasize enough how much that is important for you to assess for, can the client do this? One of the interesting things that happened is one of the clients that I, actually more than one of the clients, that I met outside, I had never met in person before. And so I found myself telling them like I'm tall. You know, this is, you know, it's hard to tell when you're when you're online, I'm tall, you know, here's my phone number in case you can't figure out which one's me, you know. So I think that there's also that kind of, you know, kind of being together physically, that does shift that dynamic. You know, how I walk, I am a tall person, I have a long stride. So I try to mirror that and mirror the pace of my client. And like I said earlier, sometimes I try to slow them down, because they're like going for a speed walk. And it's like, no, no, no, especially when we were wearing masks like No, no slow down, you need to be able to speak. It's something where the relationship can, I think really be very positively impacted. But it just has to be very conscious. I know, I've said that a number of times, but I think it just needs to be really conscious. So finishing the assessment, I'll just kind of run through this really quickly, I think you want to, to kind of consider the presenting issues, I don't know that there's any particular that are contra indicated, I think that's a case by case basis because the environments are so different. You might go to a home and end up being outside, you might be outside and then end up having to like shelter under a thing because of the rain like so like anxiety, folks that need ERP, depression, social phobia, isolation, a crisis, you know, I think a lot of those things, there's not I'm gonna say rule of thumb, I think there's going to be definitely some some need to to really assess your clients specifically, and how they're going to do in this setting and whether or not it might stir up or exacerbate any of the presenting issues that they bring.
Curt Widhalm 53:10
Is that something that you would recommend a more evaluative process for a new client before doing this? And I think some of us who've worked with clients for a while we can kind of just look at somebody with one eye and be like, Yeah, you're okay for walking talk therapy. But for somebody that you haven't met before? Is there more of an evaluative process that you might go through during an initial intake phone call?
Katie Vernoy 53:38
With some of the new clients that I've brought it up with, I like to do the first session in person seated. And for me, I still have my office. So that's where I choose to do that first session. And at this time, I'm still doing masks inside my office. So it's a formal process. It may also be I would do it telehealth first, to have a conversation. Because I'm taking more notes, I'm doing more assessment, there's just a lot of information for me in the way that I do my initial assessment that I have to get through in order to really do that. So during the phone call, as well as that assessment appointment, I would really talk about what it looks like, pros and cons. What do they think about it? If I felt like it was aligned at all with them. Some clients want to do it because it's like, 'Hey, I am sedentary all day, I would love to have an excuse to walk for an hour, while also taking care of this other need.' It's like multitasking. But some clients are like, 'Oh, I would not want to be in public. There's too much going on.' And I've had clients that even we're doing walk and talk and they're like, 'Yeah, I can't cry in public,' or you know, there's something too deep to talk about. And so in the beginning of treatment, I think you're going to want to assess what are they bringing in and if they're at a high level of crisis, I think outdoor therapy or walk and talk may not be indicated because there's so many other things that you have to control, and unless they are completely soothed by nature, and you know that they're going to be okay, in the setting, there's just too many variables. Crisis may be okay in their home environment, and it may feel less overwhelming for them for you to come to their home, less anxiety about going to treatment, because basically, they have to open the door, which could be stressful, I'm not, I don't want to discount that. But it's less potentially less stressful of getting out of your getting dressed, getting out of your home, going to an office, you know, what, braving traffic, all of that stuff. And so I think with those types of situations, you're gonna want to be very cautious. But what I found with clients that I see mostly I see executives and, you know, leaders and helping professionals and stuff like that most of them, the level of crisis is fairly low. And so when we get through the thing, it's basically talking about here, the different options, that I have that part of my informed consent, I see people on video, I have a walk and talk availability in the park nearby or in my office, and this is what it looks like. And I've got kind of the COVID requirements and all that stuff in that. And so if somebody shows interest in walking outside, I then dig deeper, but a lot of people just don't know what it is, and aren't that interested in it. And then you just don't worry about it.
Curt Widhalm 56:14
So when we were talking about, you know, kind of having some plans of being out in the environments, like what are some of the considerations that you might want to look at? We talked a little bit about what's out in the neighborhood, but I'm sure that that's not everything that we need to think about?
Katie Vernoy 56:29
No, of course not. So once you've made the assessment, and you have a clear sense of kind of, if this is right for the client, then you then you want to formulate how you're going to use the environment. Because it can be kind of this passive, we're just walking, we're not interacting with nature. And and if that's the formulation, that's a formulation, right? Like you, it's just, hey, we're outside, maybe use it for stabilization, maybe there's metaphor that pops into your head, but it really is just kind of passively there, you're building the relationship and something may come up, but you're not actively using the environment.
Curt Widhalm 57:14
Okay.
Katie Vernoy 57:16
Now, alternatively, you can use the environment kind of as a third person in treatment and in nature that could be interacting with whatever it is, and so deeply interacting with it, it could be rituals, or different things that happen outside, that's probably on the scope of this conversation, especially because we're running low on time. But I think some folks actually have activities that they do with nature outside in nature that have their more creative activities, and you're actually engaging with the environment. At home, that can look like, you know, setting up a homework station, it can look like having a family meeting at their kitchen table. You know, like there's a lot of things that can happen where you're actively engaging with the environment, versus using it as a place to meet. Does that distinction make sense?
Curt Widhalm 58:05
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 58:07
When you're out and about or are not tied to the two chairs in your office, I think that you can do roleplay in a different way, you can do some modeling within those things, whether it's how you walk, how you do the different things. Like there's there's a lot of things that can happen, that with the physical mobility that happens with you entering their space, or them walking with you outdoors, that it just allows for more physical freedom to do a lot of different things,
Curt Widhalm 58:36
Getting to maybe some of the last pieces of structure here for clients. We have our normal informed consents. You and I have both worked on our own informed consents. We're crafting some for maybe sharing with our audience here that takes the hits of both of ours, but what kinds of things do you consider adding into an informed consent here? We're gonna get more in detail on this in part two of this episode as well.
Katie Vernoy 59:05
I think broadly, I think people need to know what they're signing up for, that it's voluntary. They can stop at any time. I think, you know, we're going to have probably minutes and minutes of conversation on informed consent. But I think it's something where, needless to say you need to have an informed consent specific or a portion of your informed consent specific to these types of settings, where you talk about risks, you talk about confidentiality, you talk about how voluntary it is, and then also potentially around the elements of them kind of being in charge of their own health and physical liability. But I think the big difference that I want to identify here is that once you've got the informed consent initially, it is more of a dynamic setup because of how uncertain the environment is. And so in this article it talked about process contracting, which is basically checking in, referring back and making sure that you're continuing to assess the informed consent and shifting it if needed. And I've mentioned this before, I'll mention it now, because I think this is really important, best practice is where you can introduce predictability. And so you've assessed, you've kind of formulated how you're going to use it, you've created an informed consent, you do the process contracting to continue to assess and keep the informed consent valid. And then introducing predictability is really about where you can make things the same. And so I meet my clients at the same place. And we'll talk about logistics of if you have back to back sessions, I have two different places that I meet my clients for walk and talk, for example. But you know, you try to make it so that there is some level of predictability. So you're not constantly in the state of reacting to the uncertain environment, so that you can get a little bit more of that treatment space. And as in every space risk assessment is very important. It could be dynamic in a home, it could be looking at the relationship, and certainly if you are going to a home that has any kind of violence in it, or, or any kind of conflict, that's part of the risk assessment. When you're outdoors, it could be about like, is this path safe to walk on? It could also be about is this client up for walking today? Or do we need to, to kind of shift gears and do something different? I'll say it again, you know, people can recognize that maybe there's a question on this in the continuing education course... but you start with a strong assessment and formulation, you create a really strong informed consent. And then follow that with process contracting to continue to assess and check back on the informed consent, you introduce predictability, you make sure you're doing appropriate risk assessment. And then the last point is know your scope of practice. And we will talk about this in the next episode. But just because you're an experienced clinician does not mean that this is within your scope. And then also, think about consulting with experts. And this could be people in other fields like home health aides to make sure that if you're meeting with a homebound client, for example, that you understand what's happening with their physical health and how you can make sure that you're not doing anything that's going to be harmful to them. Occupational therapists, horticulturalists. If you're going to do like a strong activity, that you want to use plants, you want to make sure you're not using some sort of a poisonous plant where you both end up with like poison oak or something. But I think it even in how we take care of our own professional development and our scope of practice here really, potentially also requires some creativity.
Curt Widhalm 1:03:03
You can find out how to get continuing education for this episode, keep listening. We'll post our links and references in our show notes. You can find those over at mtsgpodcast.com. And join our Facebook community, The Modern Therapists Group and follow us on our social media to find out about everything that we're doing and places where you can share your ideas with us as well. And tune in for the next episode next week. Don't forget to subscribe, and until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 1:03:38
Just a quick reminder if you'd like one unit of continuing education for listening to this episode, go to moderntherapistcommunity.com, purchase this course and pass the post test. A CE certificate will appear in your profile once you've successfully completed the steps.
Curt Widhalm 1:03:53
Once again that's moderntherapistcommunity.com.
Katie Vernoy 1:03:57
Thanks again to our sponsor, Dr. Tequilla Hill.
Curt Widhalm 1:04:00
Therapist if you are tired of going in and out of the burnout cycle and you desire to optimize your wellness, Dr. Tequila Hill has created and curated a wellness guide specifically with deep compassion for the dynamic personhood of the psychotherapist. Subscribe to Dr. Hill's offerings at bit.ly/staywellguide and you can find many of the inspiring offerings from Dr. Hill 17 years as a practice leader, supervisor, mentor, human systems consultant and wellness enthusiast.
Katie Vernoy 1:04:38
Once again subscribe to Dr. Tequilla Hill's How to Stay Well While you Work! Therapist Wellness Guide at bit.ly/staywellguide
Curt Widhalm 1:04:48
Hey everyone, Curt and Katie here. If you love this longer form content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education, events and a whole lot more.
Katie Vernoy 1:05:13
If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution, no worries. We also have a buy me a coffee profile for one time donations. Support us at whatever level that you can today. It really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/MTSGpodcast or buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Announcer 1:05:34
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Now Modern Therapists Need to Document Every F*cking Thing in Our Progress Notes?!? Curt and Katie discuss a recent citation from the California Board of Behavioral Sciences (BBS) to a therapist for cursing while in session. We explore: How do we document ruptures during the therapy session? Is the BBS over-reaching by controlling what therapists document? What are the best practices for note taking? All of this and more in the episode.
In this podcast episode we talk about appropriate documentation practices for modern therapists As therapists it’s important that we take accurate notes. But what is important to include in the notes, and how much should we really be documenting?
Wait – Is it alright to use curse words in session? * Therapists should be first and foremost aware of the client and their potential reaction. * Note the therapeutic relationship with the client, their history, and how the client empowers themself when making language selections. * If considering using casual language, consider the client’s vernacular. * Follow the client’s lead when it comes to their language in session, including cursing. * The BBS has no specific statute related to cursing or swearing.
“If things aren’t written down, they did still happen – but now it’s open to interpretation.”
- Curt Widhalm
What should modern therapists document in clinical notes? * It is important to document any bold interventions or ruptures in the therapeutic relationship and repair attempts for ruptures. * In note taking, it is important to follow the clinical loop: assessment, diagnosis, treatment plan, intervention, use of intervention, and the client’s reaction and progress. * Your notes will be a balance of covering your liability and creating notes that help you remember the session. * Therapists should consider documenting the use of any language that could be deemed not clinically appropriate, even positive statements like “I’m proud of you,” or “Yes, my dear.”
“I think any rupture in the treatment relationship is worthy to document because it’s potentially clinically rich, but also a point of liability.” – Katie Vernoy
Does the California Board of Behavioral Sciences (BBS) outline what we should say in our notes? * In the 300-page PDF outlining the statutes for LPCCs, LMFTs, LCSWs, and Educational Psychologists, notes are only mentioned 10 times. * There is no mention in the statutes of what can be said and what can’t be said in notes. * Some agencies and institutions will stress writing very little to ensure protection from liability, but as this citation showcases, this might not be best practice. * The BBS wants to ensure the protection of clients and you might need to justify your words, just as you would justify the use of an intervention. * This is a reminder that the BBS can and do look at therapist’s notes.
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Dr. Tequilla Hill The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative, and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
If you are tired of going in and out of the burnout cycle and you desire to optimize your wellness, Dr. Tequilla Hill a mindful entrepreneur, yoga, and somatic meditation teacher has curated How to Stay Well While You Work Therapist Wellness Guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self-care. Subscribe to Dr. Hill’s Stay Well While You Work! Therapist Wellness Guide and you can find many of the inspiring offerings from Dr. Hill’s 17 years as a practice leader, supervisor, mentor, human systems consultant and wellness enthusiast.
Support The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide on Patreon! If you love our content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings, and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more. If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution – no worries – we also have a buy me a coffee profile for one-time donations support us at whatever level you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Statutes and Regulations Relating to the Practices of Professional Clinical Counseling, Marriage and Family Therapy, Educational Psychology, and Clinical Social Work
The Case for Cursing
Client’s Experiences and Perceptions of the Therapist’s use of Swear Words and the Resulting Impact on the Therapeutic Alliance in the Context of the Therapeutic Relationship by HollyAnne Giffin
Swearing as a Response to Pain: Assessing Hypoalgesic Effects of Novel “Swear” Words by Richard Stephens and Olly Robertson
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Do Therapists Curse in Session?
Make Your Paperwork Meaningful: An Interview with Dr. Maelisa McCaffrey Hall of QA Prep
Noteworthy Documentation: An Interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, PsyD, LMFT
CAMFT Ethics Code Updates
Bad Business Practices
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
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Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Dr. Tequilla Hill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Dr. Tequilla Hill with mindful entrepreneur, yoga and somatic meditation teacher has curated how to stay well while you work therapist wellness guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self care. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to learn more.
Katie Vernoy 00:41
Hey everyone, before we get started with the episode Curt and I wanted to make sure you were aware that we have opportunities for you to support us for as little as $2 a month.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Whether you want to make that monthly contribution at patreon.com/MTSGpodcast or a one time donation over at buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Every donation helps us out and continues to help us bring great content to you. Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 01:12
You're listening to The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:30
Welcome back modern therapists. This is The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about all of the things that therapists should worry about. And this is part two of an episode that we started last week about a citation from the California Board of Behavioral Sciences to a therapist about using a curse word in session. And if you haven't listened to last week's episodes, we talked a little bit about, we talked a lot about using curse words and sessions. And today, we're gonna focus on a different part of the citation. In the citation, it talks about the therapist not documenting about their decision to use a curse word, how it fits within the treatment, what the client's response to it was, and this being a part of why the therapist was being investigated and wanting to do a dive into: what are we actually supposed to put in our notes? We've had a couple of episodes in the past. So one with Dr. Melissa Hall and one with Dr. Ben Caldwell about what you need to put in your notes. We'll link to those in our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com. We're not talking about SOAP Notes or structure, that kind of stuff. Today we're talking about legitimately, what do you need to put in your notes? And what is this signal by the California BBS really mean for the rest of us here? So, Katie, what needs to go in our notes?
Katie Vernoy 03:11
Well, I think just for folks that want a quick primer, because I when they can go over to both of those episodes and get stuff I'll say something and kind of lead into the rest of this. The documentation for services should follow the clinical loop. Dr. Melissa McCaffrey Hall is someone who talked about it really well and meaningful documentation. But you start with an assessment that leads to a diagnosis that then has a treatment plan, that then on a weekly or a session by session basis, you talk about the interventions that you're putting forward to help the client to meet their treatment goals that's on the treatment plan. And that's a clinical loop, you know, diagnosis, treatment plan, session notes - comes back, and hopefully you're addressing the diagnosis. In this situation. Again, we talked about the cursing before, it seems like there is a discussion around were all of the interventions put into the note. And I don't know if we have to include all interventions. I think there's a lot of mirroring and reflection and active listening and all of those things. But I think potentially you can put some of those things in the notes, but I don't think every single micro intervention needs to go in notes. But I think big interventions probably do, especially ones that are truly impactful to our clients, as well as the responses to those interventions and an even like group notes or SOAP Notes or any of the notes. There is an idea, pretty established, that we must put down the interventions that we're using and the client response.
Curt Widhalm 04:55
So in the very nature of this you're bringing up intervention is there are planned interventions, and then there are also the ones that just kind of slip out. And I think it's important for us to read from this citation. So that way, our audience here has the same knowledge of what's going on here. So I'm going to quote, I'm going to quote from the citation. And once again, we're not releasing the name of the therapists themselves, due to respecting their privacy on this, but I think that this is a key indicator of looking at how our licensing boards are enforcing stuff Yeah, and, and potentially looking at their their overreach here. So jumping into the middle of this, we talked in last week's episode about the therapists use of a curse words towards a minor in session, and quoting from the citation, regarding the record keeping a portion of your notes which you had handwritten are illegible. Additionally, your notes failed to identify which minor you had confronted during the session. Furthermore, your notes do not document either your decision to use a curse word as part of your description of the minor clients behavior. What's your rationale was for doing so what the minor client's response was to your description of his behavior, or that you would apologized to the minor client regarding the wording you had to use to describe his behavior. End quote.
Katie Vernoy 06:25
I think that there are pieces of that that are fair. And I feel like there's still information that we don't know to identify at the word that you used as overreach. I think that the level of policing around our documentation seems surprising to me. But I don't know if I particularly disagree with any of their statements. It sounds like you do, though.
Curt Widhalm 06:49
My reaction on this is, if this is in fact used as an intervention within the the treatment session, which by all accounts seems to be what this therapist and the therapist attorney justified that no other ways of reaching this client really made any sort of emphasis. That doing something big and bold in session in order to try and get through a client does seem to be a maybe very on the spot decision as an intervention to kind of disrupt and shake things up a little bit. That maybe not planned as a intervention strategy. You know, I think last week, you and I both admitted that, yeah, we use curse words in sessions from time to time. I don't think that any of my treatment plans will ever include session seven, use curse word with this client to disrupt what is the therapy in order to help them gain a new perspective. But I think it is something where, with intentional interventions, and that that clinical feedback loops that you were talking about, yeah, we do need to include in our notes, intervention use client reaction. And I think that that's the language that the Board of Behavioral Sciences is using here, that is kind of a catch all for this. Where maybe there's a little bit more nuance in here is in some of the off the cuff interventions that we do, or things that are human relations, sort of impacts that we have on other people that we might not consider in the traditional sense of interventions that it gets into kind of a fuzzy space of are we leaning towards the the cya of covering our asses of needing to transcribe the entirety of our sessions just to prove what has happened? That's kind of where my initial reading of this is. Do we have to document everything that is said, and moving into even some of the direct quotations that we use in session with more frequency?
Katie Vernoy 09:06
That may be what the BBS is describing? I think, for me, I don't take that in in that way. I think in this situation, it is hard to know if this is something that is coming from a parent that is is upset at the therapist or the therapist decision making. I'm not sure if this is a truly harmful therapist who is saying really inappropriate things in session, or some other thing, right. Like I can't speak to this particular situation. And I certainly don't feel like we need to do transcription of our sessions and quotations of our own stuff. So that's, that's my caveat. If I was in a session, and I said something to a client, they said that hurt my feelings, and we talked about it and I apologized and there was a repair or there wasn't a repair, I would document that I think any rupture in the treatment relationship is worthy to document because it's potentially very clinically rich, but it also is a point of liability. And so to me, it feels like if I recognize that a client is upset by an intervention or specific words that I use, I would document that.
Curt Widhalm 10:24
And I think that this is the difficulty in looking at information like this because it gets much more complicated with the more people who are in the room. Having worked on legislative language before and worked on trying to define things before and creating language for statutes that is broad enough that it speaks to what we do in our profession. A lot of times, we just borrow language from where it's already written. And one of the things, especially for couples and family therapy is that there hasn't really been a good definition of how in statute, it looks different than working with individuals. You know, we have 100 plus years of psychologists language to, you know, work with individual people. But sure, the theories around marriage and family therapy, we can borrow some of the language that statutes should suggest that those go in there. But for really being conscious of the steps that we're making towards putting this information into our documentation. What I'm hearing you say is that if you're really calling out one member in this citation saying the same thing, if you're really holding one member accountable, you need to be specific to that up to an including emphatic language. Is that what you're saying here?
Katie Vernoy 12:01
Well, I think you're, we're talking and I feel like we're talking into different areas. I think, in this situation, we have someone who clearly was overwhelmed, or at least that's what we've assumed, has illegible notes, and there's not specifics in it. So to me, the flavor I'm getting is that if this person if this therapist would have put in their notes, something along the lines of confronted X member of the family or use disruption by confronting X member and had some bold language and discuss the use of that language, and provided a repair within the session, without saying, I cursed at this kid, the family got upset, and I whatever, but like actually using clinical language to describe what happened, the confrontation, the disruption within the family system, as well as repair and planning for the future. To me, I don't know that we would, that this would have been part of the citation. We're assuming because they said you did not you say you used a curse word and your rationale for using the curse word that we're like, oh, we have to transcribe. I don't know that. I don't know that. I agree with that. And I do share your concern that should this become statute? Yeah. I don't think we need to transcribe our sessions, or put forward really dramatic tales in our progress notes, so that we cover everything. But I think it's, it's a jump in this situation to say, Oh, well, they wanted this. It sounds like they were appalled at what they found. And they put language to how they put it forward. I honestly have no idea. And I don't fault this therapist at all. I can't make a judgment on that. But if we're looking at the notes were illegible and incomplete. Everything was missing. Right?
Curt Widhalm 13:55
Well, the eligibility, part of it, I think, is a curious piece. And I think you and I have both heard from clinicians. And I haven't heard this as much in the last 10 years. And yeah, I do want to give you credit for being the one who brings up this point, before we started recording today. So but you and I both heard for most of our careers, about therapists who've taken the approach of well, if it's illegible, then people have to ask me what was meant there. And that's another way of protecting me in my practice. And this is a very clear indication that that is not true.
Katie Vernoy 14:35
Not true at all. We need to type stuff into an electronic health record. That's pretty clear at this point.
Curt Widhalm 14:43
I think it's really important to be able to have clear notes, do them well. And I think getting into the nuance of just like how descriptive do we need to be in the response to that But I take your point, as far as you know, what may need to be, as far as you know, use this disruption. Is it, you know, needing to put in more and more exact quotes? Is it, you know, just in the more confrontive ones? Or is it also going to be in any sort of situation where a different perspective is going to need that nuance reflected in the notes as well?
Katie Vernoy 15:27
What do you mean by that?
Curt Widhalm 15:28
So, you know, there's the clients that therapists use curse words to disrupt them. Yeah. There's also the other end of the spectrum where therapists may use more affectionate language to help to emphasize a point to that maybe seen as a boundary crossing of, you know, expressing some affection in a way that has some context sway, you know, hey, I really care for you. And I really want to see you be successful in this, do we need to then document that same nuance in that direction?
Katie Vernoy 16:06
From the description that you're providing there, I think the answer is the therapist, it depends. To me, when I express something that I think that therapists typically don't, you know, I tell my clients, I'm proud of them, I tell them, I care that care about them, or I care about what's going on with them, or whatever it is, I do show genuine human connection. I think that with one client, it may be completely documenting it out, not necessarily for the cya purposes, but for reminding myself what I'm doing. And, and and having that as part of the clinical record, because I think it's important. For other clients, if I slip up and say, hey, yeah, you and me both buddy, or Yes, my dear, or have a wonderful weekend, my dear, or something where I slip into a phrase that I might use with friends versus with my clients. And it is a client who may have a response to that that would be not clinically appropriate, or their, their response is clinically appropriate, but it would not be conducive, and it would need to have a conversation about it. I may document, you know, used informal language of care, we'll address it the next session, you know, to close out the session, I will address that at the next session and talk about the conversation of like, Hey, I was pretty casual at the end, I feel connected to you. But I wanted to make sure that we talk about our relationship. Like I think if there's a clinical reason, that or a personality reason why the client may take in something in a way that it was not intended or feel that it may be harmful. Yeah, I'm gonna document what I said and how I addressed it. And so I think it's, it's something where, depending on your relationship with the client, that context and what context may be needed, should a complaint or a concern or a clinical conversation comes down the pipe, and you need to remember kind of what was going on there? I think, yeah, I would document that for myself.
Curt Widhalm 18:06
As many of our listeners know, I sit on the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists ethics committee, and not speaking for them, but a discussion that has come up at one of our meetings with one of the staff attorneys who also is on the ethics committee, talking about the way that opposing counsels would approach therapists and depositions specifically around their notes. And hearing you say, you know, use informal language of affection. I'm thinking of the way that that could be interpreted by somebody who's looking at your notes, who's not involved, and the kinds of questions that would come up. But what do you mean, why, why didn't you write with that exact language is? That, you know, this could be anything. My client remembered this as being something completely different than what you're saying now, that may lends towards needing to go even a step further than what you're talking about here.
Katie Vernoy 19:10
Sure. And I think that's part of the 'it depends,' I think, if it's a client that potentially is going to have that as a complaint, yeah, I'd write the exact phrase.
Curt Widhalm 19:19
How do you make a decision that about which clients are likely to make complaints versus those that are not?
Katie Vernoy 19:25
I think that's a good point. I think there are times when it comes from past history of whether it's kind of being litigious or other things. I think, for me, it's more my feeling in the moment, you know, and so this is more intuitive or instinctive. Do I need to be more descriptive in my notes or not, is a client that I, I think, may want to see their notes may or may have other things that they're doing with these notes, or if they would be potentially more confrontational or litigious, but you're right, I don't I don't think that there's a great way to make that assessment and maybe the the informal words have affection is not a good phrase to use. To me, I think it's something where if there is a concern that comes up in session that you feel like you want to document, you have to decide do you document it with euphemisms, clinical language? Or do you quote yourself? I don't know. I think there's, there's arguments both ways.
Curt Widhalm 20:21
Yeah, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the number of times that we may start down a path with clients that clients just kind of give indication that it's not the appropriate way of of going. That, you know, we may bring up an idea of, let's say, for, I don't know, working with anxiety or something where, you know, you might ask a question of, like, you know, have you ever, you know, considered doing this and the clients like, No, I'm not going to do that. Do you document every single one of those like, rejections that clients do? And in your notes?
Katie Vernoy 20:59
The 'No, I'm not gonna do this.' I think that's different than I tried it. And I felt like it was harmful. I think that was a bad idea. Why did you tell me to do that? I mean, there's different flavors to it. I think if it's a conversation of like, okay, what kind of coping strategies are you going to use? Or what kind of interventions feel right to you? To me, that's, that can be a higher level documentation. But if somebody says, "Hey, I was thinking about this thing all week, I didn't do it, because I think it's wrong. And this is, this is the thing, the mismatch I'm feeling in this relationship right now." Yeah, I would document that.
Curt Widhalm 21:34
Because I think that there is a way that as you point out, my practice being more with kids, that there's probably a lot more casual ways of bringing things up with kids and relating them, there might be even with some of the adult clients that I work with, you're making me think within this conversation of kind of the being able to describe in documents, why I might do things differently from case to case where a lot of these statutes are written for kind of the here's the standard for everybody. Yeah, I think if statutes had their way it would be everybody must do these things all the time here is very clearly what is okay. And very clearly what is not. Before the episode, Katie and I had looked at the California BBS's statutes and regulations relating to the practices of professional clinical counseling, marriage and family therapy, educational psychology, and clinical social work. This is a 300 page PDF that's available on the BBS website, we'll include a link to that in the show notes as well. Now through the magic of computers, we control F, and put in the words and put in the word notes, out over 300 pages in four different disciplines, notes came up 10 times in this document. Wow. And most of them were about the requirements of education, what needs to be in graduate programs, as far as areas to cover, students need to be taught how to take notes. And most of the remaining other ones where supervisors need to check the notes. So this clinical feedback loop piece of this is something that is left to just kind of the undefined standards of the profession. That seems to be what is being grasped at. And Katie had also made the recommendation of can you control F documentation in the same documents, and we ended up with about 70 hits, and most of them were, these are documents that need to be provided to the board for proof of your hours and this kind of stuff. So getting back to this citation. Yes, I can agree, handwritten illegible notes. Not gonna fly.
Katie Vernoy 24:05
Not gonna fly.
Curt Widhalm 24:07
The guidance in what the state has said as far as what needs to be in the notes. I'm, I'm still kind of wrestling with, did this therapist do something wrong in their documentation? If it comes down to needing to specifically look at what is the threshold of things that need to be documented? As I'm hearing you talk about it in this episode, you're saying it's kind of things outside of the norm, things that if we wouldn't do this with all of our clients, if there's something specific to an individual client, we should probably make note of that. So that way, anybody else who's reading it can understand our process of why this fits with this particular client or situation? Yes. Were you ever taught that?
Katie Vernoy 25:05
Was I ever taught that? I think I was. I don't know that I was taught that as a clinician, when we were looking at this and how I was thinking about an even wrote this in my notes in preparation is when I was working as a child care worker, aka, a residence counselor in a group home, anything that happened that was out of the norm, especially if there was an injury, or some sort of horrible thing that happened to a kid, we did a serious incident report, or an SIR. And so for me, that was always the case that I would write stuff up, if it happened. And the the client, that kid was having some sort of reaction to it, or they got hurt, I would write that up, and just the facts and what happened and how you resolved it. And so for me, when I moved up the ranks in being a clinician, there's always that in the back of my mind that if something goes down, that is different, that is potentially harmful, and/or could be perceived as harmful, because it was a mismatch or whatever. Write that stuff down and make sure that you talk about your rationale, what happened and how the client responded and any repairs. So to me, I don't know that that was specific to clinical training, certainly, as I was working as a supervisor, the clinical loop was present. But there's also all these liability issues. And I think especially working with kids and families that are very chaotic, or there's a lot of factors that are making things very challenging for the family, I would encourage my clinicians to document those things because of how chaotic it was. So their supervisors would know so that the clinicians would remember what happened. I think there's all of those pieces that that made it so I'm potentially a little bit more conservative in my note writing, meaning that I write more than other folks may because I feel like there is a need to understand, remember, and cya.
Curt Widhalm 27:11
From hearing from a lot of our listeners, past students, people who've consulted with me and other just general conversations. I think they your training might be more specific than what a lot of other people working in other agencies, maybe maybe not community mental health agencies, like I will group what you said in and assume that that is a largely kind of standard rule for a lot of community mental health. But for a lot of nonprofit agencies. I don't hear this kind of emphasis, I hear a lot more of the document as minimally as possible that this audience right here, listen to this. This citation is proof that that is bad direction from shows agencies that way, keep Katie is talking about is really covering your ass, not the agency's ass that this is the proof that boards can and do look at your notes. Yeah, they're going to find faults, if notes are not up to standards. And this goes back to your law and ethics professors of if things aren't written down, they did still happen. But now it's open to interpretation. Yeah. And yeah, your justification, days, months, years later is not necessarily going to be protection, because what is written in the note at the time, is what is going to be first and foremost evaluated.
Katie Vernoy 28:50
And I think the the big difference from what you're talking about with other kind of nonprofit agencies and agencies that have Medicaid billing, is I was also taught that my my progress notes the clinical documentation that I put together is a bill. And so there needs to be sufficient intervention to justify the minutes that I'm billing for. So the reverse was actually what I was taught all the way coming up, is your notes need to be longer for longer sessions, and you need to have sufficient documentation to prove that your time was worth what we're billing for it. So the other piece and you brought this up before we begin was this kind of what do we remember? Yes. And I think when I am on top of my game, and I get my notes write down right away, I find that I have some details, some richness, and it does help me to remember from week to week, what's happened when I'm not on my game and I start getting behind on my notes. I struggle with that. And I think that folks who are chronically overwhelmed, and I'm going to include a lot of the folks in community mental health but even practices that are very full Do get behind on their notes. And then how do we do this detail? And you talked about another issue with, potentially when you write the note and what's in it. So let's move to that part because I think that's important too, before we close up.
Curt Widhalm 30:14
Well, and I will forever credit Dr. Melissa McCaffrey Hall for this advice, that the number one reason that most people seem to be behind on their notes is that they don't end sessions on time. And this is phenomenal advice that I pass along to everybody, in that the reason that we do a 50 minute session or a 45 minute session is to leave yourself time to document this stuff correctly. Yeah. And I'm going back to talking about how attorneys might approach you in a deposition, they will ask you, when did you write this note? When? Why didn't you write it earlier? What do you remember the next day about anything? Like, can you remember what you had for lunch yesterday? And who served it to you? And what was the interaction process? And this is all showing proof of just how much your memory can and does have errors to it? And if that's the case, then you having errors in your notes from being written a day or a week or months later? Is very, not good practice. It is inviting liability.
Katie Vernoy 31:35
Yes, I think and I've been on the right, the note right after session and write the note a little bit later. I'm not gonna get myself too much more liability than saying that. But I do think that writing your notes from a state of fear doesn't feel good, either. So going back to the citation to finish up because I know we're getting short on time. I can see why they said what they said I can imagine a situation where it's appropriate. If it becomes statute that every time we use a word that doesn't seem quote unquote, professional, IE see the session from last week. I worry if that's in statute, because I think there are different ways we speak with different clients, there are different things that we do. And so to me, I don't I don't want this to become a statute where we have to do these things. I do worry that this is some overreach. And I also feel like there are some things that we can do to protect ourselves which is sufficiently document what has happened, do it as close to finishing the session as you can and recognize that part of your documentation is your clinical reminder of what's going on, as well as cya if somebody comes looking at those notes later.
Curt Widhalm 32:53
You can check out our show notes at MTSGpodcast.com. Follow our social media and take a moment and drop us a note your thoughts of what we're covering here, stories that you've heard, and anything else that you would like to have us cover and until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 33:15
Thanks again to our sponsor, Dr. Tequilla Hill.
Curt Widhalm 33:18
Therapists, if you are tired of going in and out of the burnout cycle and you desire to optimize your wellness, Dr. Tequilla Hill has created and curated a wellness guide specifically with deep compassion for the dynamic personhood of the psychotherapist. Subscribe to Dr. Hills offerings at bit.ly/StayWellGuide that's bit.ly/StayWellGuide and you can find many of the inspiring offerings from Dr. Hill 17 years as a practice leader, supervisor, mentor, human systems consultant and wellness enthusiast.
Katie Vernoy 33:56
Once again, subscribed to Dr. Tequilla Hill's how to stay well while you work therapist wellness guide at bit.ly/StayWellGuide.
Curt Widhalm 34:06
Hey everyone Curt and Katie here. If you love our content and would like to bring conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more.
Katie Vernoy 34:29
If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution no worries we also have a buy me a coffee profile for one time donations support us at whatever level you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/MTSGpodcast or buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Announcer 34:50
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter and please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Do Therapists Curse in Session? Curt and Katie discuss a recent citation from the California Board of Behavioral Sciences (BBS) to a therapist for cursing while in session. We explore: Can therapists swear in session? Should they? Are there times when cursing is appropriate in session? Are therapists allowed to make errors without the fear of citation from their board? We explore these and more in this episode.
In this podcast episode we talk about the ethics and responsibilities of cursing in session. After hearing about the citation for a clinician who had cursed in session, we wanted to explore what is acceptable related to using curse words in session. We know as therapists that what we say matters, and now more than ever our choice of language matters. Who is allowed to curse in the therapy room? We tackle this question in depth:
Is swearing or cursing ever appropriate in session? * Both Curt and Katie swear in session when appropriate * Swearing in session can create a more authentic therapeutic rapport with some clients * Sometimes clients will ask for permission to swear in session * Follow the client’s lead when it comes to their language in session, including cursing * It is mostly important to reflect the client’s language without judgement * Clients might be looking for more humanity in their therapists * Therapists are people; curses can slip out when therapists feel depleted and without resource * Cursing based on your own humanity can cause therapeutic rupture and clinicians should be mindful of the therapeutic alliance and make repair attempts
“The concept of professionalism has a fairly biased frame. It's something that's very specific to a specific culture… typically, white culture [suggests] I am professional if I don't curse… Even words that are considered curse words – sometimes there's such a morality around that and morals are culturally-bound” – Katie Vernoy
What does the research show us about swearing? * Some research suggests that cursing out loud decreases pain * “Professional language” is often rooted in whiteness with a goal of excluding people of color * When not accurately reflecting a client’s language, you run the risk of editing them * Swearing speech is primarily meant to convey connotative or emotional meaning with emphasis
What do professional organizations say now about cursing in session? * The BBS recently cited a therapist for swearing in session as unprofessional language * Only one professional organization, The National Association of Social Workers, officially bars cursing in session – specifically derogatory language * Swearing speech is primarily meant to convey connotative or emotional meaning with emphasis * Therapists have a responsibility to make sure they are emotionally equipped to deal with clients
Is there an ideal language for therapists to use? … I caution against blanket rules. – Curt Widhalm
- Slurs are never acceptable to use during session, especially when there are cultural differences between client and therapist
- Considerations related to expressing your humanity, using curse words, and the clients you see
- Ethically, we have guidelines of client beneficence and avoiding maleficence, meaning don’t harm the client
- Technically cursing is allowed, but only with reason and while remembering that some folks are litigious
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Dr. Tequilla Hill The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative, and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
If you are tired of going in and out of the burnout cycle and you desire to optimize your wellness, Dr. Tequilla Hill a mindful entrepreneur, yoga, and somatic meditation teacher has curated How to Stay Well While you Work Therapist Wellness Guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self care. Subscribe to Dr. Hill’s Stay Well While You Work! Therapist Wellness Guide and you can find many of the inspiring offerings from Dr. Hill’s 17 years as a practice leader, supervisor, mentor, human systems consultant and wellness enthusiast.
Support The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide on Patreon! If you love our content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings, and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more. If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution – no worries – we also have a buy me a coffee profile for one time donations support us at whatever level you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Case for Cursing
Client’s Experiences and Perceptions of the Therapist’s use of Swear Words and the Resulting Impact on the Therapeutic Alliance in the Context of the Therapeutic Relationship by HollyAnne Giffin
Swearing as a Response to Pain: Assessing Hypoalgesic Effects of Novel “Swear” Words by Richard Stephens and Olly Robertson
Relevant Citations in the MTSG Podcast:
Stephens, R., & Clatworthy, A. (2006). Does swearing have an analgesic effect? Poster presentation at the British Psychological Society Psychobiology Section Annual Conference, 18
20 September 2006, Windermere
Stephens, R. (2013). Swearing-The language of life and death. The Psychologist, 26(9). Retrieved from https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-26/edition-9/swearing-language-life-and-death
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: CAMFT Ethics Code Updates
When Clients Have to Manage Their Therapists
The Return of Why Therapists Quit
Impaired Therapists
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
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Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by Dr. Tequilla Hill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Dr. Tequilla Hill a mindful entrepreneur yoga and somatic meditation teacher has curated how to stay well while you work therapist wellness guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self care. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to learn more.
Katie Vernoy 00:42
Hey everyone, before we get started with the episode, Curt and I wanted to make sure you were aware that we have opportunities for you to support us for as little as $2 a month.
Curt Widhalm 00:51
Whether you want to make that a monthly contribution at Patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or a one time donation over at buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Every donation helps us out and continues to help us bring great content to you. Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 01:14
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:28
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about things that we do things that show up in therapy things that are happening in our profession. And today's episode started with looking at a citation that was issued by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences to a therapist, this is public information, we're not going to name names. But this is part one of a two part episode.
Katie Vernoy 02:05
Oh at least two parts.
Curt Widhalm 02:08
Part, episode one, at least two parts dealing with this particular citation. And if you know us that we can dive deeply into the strangest of things. But this is an important one in looking at the way that licensing boards are evaluating things. And this has some potential ramifications throughout the rest of our profession. If you're not in California, your board may come after you one day too. So listen, listen to these because this does have some ramifications across our profession. Now, very, very broadly, not getting into a ton of details. If you want to peruse, you can probably pull this up, we're not going to link this one for you. But very, very broadly, therapist was doing reunification therapy with a parent and children. And my understanding of reading through the citation is that the therapist used a curse word in session. A little bit of perspective in having done some reunification therapy before. There's a lot of dynamics at play with the parent who's not in the room. But there does not seem to be any disagreement that a curse word was used. The disagreement seems to be how the curse word was used. And this particular case, one of the children in the room felt that the therapist was calling the child the curse word, the parent who was in the room and the therapist will say that the therapist was using the word to describe the child's behavior. The California Board of Behavioral Sciences in their citation said that this is unprofessional conduct. And this among some other things that we will explore in this episode and next week's episode are going to be why we're talking so deeply about this. But Katie, do you curse in session?
Katie Vernoy 04:18
We'll share Yeah, Yeah, fuck yeah. Christian session. I don't always, I don't always, and I don't with every client, but I think there's so many different elements to cursing in session. And obviously this one's going to get one of those explicit marks and so maybe we should have put a warning we already put it on the episode but if you don't like cursing turn it the fuck off.
Curt Widhalm 04:46
Put a little parental advisory label on the show graphic for this episode. But
Katie Vernoy 04:53
I mean, I'm actually cursing more than I would normally for a fact obviously but I think it's something where the elements that we need to look at are, is it unprofessional conduct? Can we be human beings? And is there an reason that it would might be more effective clinically, or times it might be really harmful clinically, like I think there's there's a lot of different elements to this. So.
Curt Widhalm 05:17
So I think anecdotally, a lot of us who work in the fields tend to take an approach of well adopt the kind of language that a client is using, and oftentimes following their leads, and particularly in working with teenagers a lot. In my practice, I'll get the question of, Can I curse them here? Usually, after they've said a curse word, right?
Katie Vernoy 05:40
Yes, same adults, though, in my case.
Curt Widhalm 05:44
And oftentimes I, I will say, this is your space. And if this is something that helps you to be able to express yourself, well, go ahead and do it. And I may, you know, reflect back their language, it may give me a little bit of, you know, more genuine approach and letting down some of my professionalism a little bit in order to help clients feel that I'm connecting with them on their level. And for many of the therapists that I talked about, we tend to take this kind of an approach that, particularly when we're working with communities that have maybe had some issues with the way that therapists come across too professionally, that there's a lot of power in the language of using curse words, that helps to show that alright, as therapists, if we can meet with them on the level and the way that they express themselves, that it helps to build more of a real relationship. And I've seen this back when I was working and agency work working in substance abuse, homeless populations, that it did just kind of help give me a little bit more of a response of clients thinking that I'm authentic. I imagine that you had some similar experiences in DMH yourself?
Katie Vernoy 07:00
Sure. I mean, I think there's there's a few things that you said that kind of struck me and I don't know if it's worth, you know, talking about but I think there's using the client's language and you said, kind of meeting them at their level? And I don't know exactly, if that's saying like, one form of language is better than an other and, and for me, I think I don't think that's what you were trying to say. But I think for me, it's more kind of embodying the space and using the language with them without a judgement there, but
Curt Widhalm 07:33
And it wasn't intended as placing anything as far as being higher or lower level. I mean, if, if I have a three year old in session that we're going to talk on, you know, our hands as phones in order to convey messages, I'm going to meet with them on their level. So this is just kind of being able to match client characteristics.
Katie Vernoy 07:54
Sure. Okay. I think the other element that you're talking about really is authenticity. And for me, I want curse words to be used in session where it feels authentic to do so. And potentially as a connecting mechanism, but I think, just using curse words, because your client does, I don't think it's going to fly. So So I think, a couple of things there. I don't know if they're relevant, but, but to answer your question, I think the more important element of this is, knowing your client well, and really reflecting their language without assumption. I know a mistake that I had made more than once, and I realized it as I was doing it, is that I assumed that the client cursed and I was wrong. And I'd used a curse word I saw their eyebrows kind of go up. And it was something where I felt it was to reflect the gravity of what I've experiencing, like, oh, fuck, you know, or Wow, that was really shitty. You know, like, I've I've used those expressions, because that's how I talk and other arenas. But when I saw the client's eyebrows go up, I was like, Oh, wait, I'm tracking back. And although they're a person who is not a formal person, they seem to be, you know, kind of casual and how they speak. It still wasn't a word that was appropriate for them. And so to me, I feel like I, I have since moved to a place of cursing as little as possible, unless I really know like, meaning zero, unless I know the client very well. And we've had those exchanges and I've definitely heard them curse, which not everybody does, because some people see it as more of a kind of formal environment that we're sitting in. But I especially had to kind of assess this when I was working with the teen boys on probation. I mean, that was a whole different, you know, kind of way to connect with folks around language and perspective. And so I think, a blanket statement of never curse or curse whenever you want. I think obviously, that's not what we're here to say.
Curt Widhalm 10:04
When I first read this citation, I did a little bit of a self study on myself of just keeping track of the number of sessions that I had in the following days, right? Use a curse word, and it came to about 60% of my sessions.
Katie Vernoy 10:22
You definitely work with teens.
Curt Widhalm 10:24
I work with teens, I work with parents, I work with a number of different clients that our relationship has established. And I don't consider myself somebody who curses frequently in my day to day life.
Katie Vernoy 10:40
So you curse more in session than in your day to day life,
Curt Widhalm 10:43
Probably. I mean, I haven't done this kind of data tracking on my personal life, maybe I should just for comparison sake, but in observing myself, I did the follow up question of who? Why am I person care, and it fell into a couple of different categories. One was to really kind of ask clients to expand on things like, you know, if a client says, like, I'm feeling like shit today, where that's gonna make me feel shitty, like, Oh, why do you think that that's going to make you feel shitty, you know, just kind of echoing their language, family sessions are my favorites of when, especially with very young children, I'm talking, you know, those kids under the age of six, maybe preschoolers that are using curse words, and parents are trying to correct it, of, you know, talking about parents using the language in front of their children and how that's reinforcing to them. Yeah, and finding alternatives. And then there are those times where there's just kind of the emphasizing a point with clients that I've already had an established relationship with where this is being used, being able to just kind of help them maybe recognize a particular moment in session, as far as here's an emphasis on this. But in my, you know, data of like, one week of looking at this, these were all clients that had been the first to swear in sessions.
Katie Vernoy 12:16
Mm hmm.
Curt Widhalm 12:17
And I think I kind of follow you and and many others in our field that we don't lead with this, and I don't think clients necessarily, overall want us to lead with this. There's a couple of older articles, I'm talking 10 plus years old now, that kind of look at the role of therapists swearing in session, very, very minutely. And seems to be from time to in our fields when there really was a lot more of this elevated professionalism expected of psychologists, therapists, social workers, etc. But I think you know, really, overall, with the old man shaking, his fist, decaying morals of our society, where cursing seems to be a lot more prevalent. I think in the last 10 years, this has been something where either we're more readily admitting it or our clients are actually looking for more of that humanity out of the professionals who serve in these roles.
Katie Vernoy 13:16
And when you were talking the the concept of professionalism has a fairly biased frame. It's something that's very specific to a specific culture I'm in typically, white culture is more in the like, I am professional if I don't curse, I think even words that are considered curse words. Sometimes there's such a morality around that and, and morals are culturally bound to that. I feel like if we were to never curse, and if we don't curse personally, I don't, you know, like, you don't have to bust out a curse word if you don't if you never curse, but like for those of us who that's part of our communication. I think it is interesting that our profession and a professional body would say, hey, that is unprofessional behavior, when in fact, it may be the most connecting thing we can do. Like I said, I've I've made mistakes and curse when I shouldn't with clients that don't curse and I recognized it in the moment. But to me, there's using it thoughtfully. And then there's also just being who you are and talking how you talk, and having the clients that match with you. I mean, there are folks who just that's how they talk and should they be required as therapists to completely remove all cursing from their vocabulary.
Curt Widhalm 14:48
You bring up the professional organizations, and there's one professional organization who puts it in their ethics codes and This is the National Association of Social Workers, their standard 1.12 or one point 12, derogatory language, social workers should not use derogatory language in their written verbal or electronic communications, to or about clients. Social workers should use accurate and respectful language in all communications to and about clients.
Katie Vernoy 15:24
So it's, it's implying that cursing is de facto disrespectful.
Curt Widhalm 15:30
I think that in any ethics code, there's room for interpretation here, but this one is specifically talking about the language that gets used and says,
Katie Vernoy 15:41
It says derogatory language, I guess. So like that is that's where the interpretation is that you're talking about.
Curt Widhalm 15:46
Right. Which then kind of leads to the question of who gets to decide what words mean, you know, this is a intention versus impact sort of conversation, because I can think of a million ways to not use curse words and still speak derogatorily about somebody? Sure, you know, and I can think of ways where clients may even be offended for not utilizing the kind of language that they incorporate into their world. Whether that includes curse words or not.
Katie Vernoy 16:24
Yeah, I just think if you were to, to when somebody says I'm feeling really shitty today, like, you could come back and say, Well, what do you think is gonna make you feel that way? But if you were like, so what makes you feel like poop today? Like, I think it would just be funny. But secondly, it's, it's, it's editing them?
Curt Widhalm 16:46
Well,
Katie Vernoy 16:46
in the reframe.
Curt Widhalm 16:47
I have, I have worked in environments before where clients readily use this kind of language all the time, but have had co workers who would try and kind of calm things down and be like, Can Can we not use that language here? Can we use something more respectful and those kinds of coworkers didn't last long in those environments? Yeah, some of looking at this is also looking at some of the neurological research that has come out in the last 10 or so years about the effectiveness of using curse words, as a way of relieving pain. Oh, interesting. And we'll put some citations, at least in the show notes. Not necessarily going to find all of the source articles he re for people but,
Katie Vernoy 17:44
But we're gonna say we're gonna have citations never fear, you'll be able to find it.
Curt Widhalm 17:48
We're gonna have some citations here. But the use of curse words has allowed for people being subjected to physical pain to report on a subjective units of distress, less pain being felt when they're allowed to curse. And this was also replicated in a Mythbusters episodes that so I mean, if
Katie Vernoy 18:14
It has to be true, it's very true.
Curt Widhalm 18:19
The question really becomes, is cursing allowed or not. And this is where we get into these weird, like, can we create blanket rules for our profession? I'm not going to be like leading cursing with my clients.
Katie Vernoy 18:36
No,
Curt Widhalm 18:37
Especially, you know, children.
Katie Vernoy 18:42
Yeah, I think probably the parents would not be pleased if you taught your child, your child clients to curse.
Curt Widhalm 18:50
And part of this is going to be based on your theoretical orientation. You know, if part of what your family therapy is is working on creating structure around appropriate language in the household, and kids are going to be cursing or not, or if that's something that parents are trying to move their kids away from, inevitably, you're going to have to at least document that you're working on.
Katie Vernoy 19:14
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that there, there are clinical reasons, whether it's part of the joining and the relationship, whether it's authenticity, whether it's specific things you're working on. I think there are reasons to thoughtfully engage in cursing and session. You know, because I think otherwise, it is really just about humanity. I mean, to me in reading that citation, I'm not clear so it could have been that the the clinician was speaking about behavior, reflecting back language from the family. And it could have been thoughtful, thoughtful use, but I'm curious having worked in a lot of these types of situations where there's reunification, or DCFS involvement, or probation involvement, where there's families that are under a lot of stress, they're being mandated to treatment, there are a lot of things going on. And those families righteously can be challenging for a clinician to work with. And it can be very, very overwhelming. And so to me, I'm thinking, was this a clinical choice? I'm reflecting the language, I'm being authentic, or was it a, I am at my last my wit's end and holy fuck I am done for the day. And so it was not thoughtful, it was humanity. And the question I posed to you, dear sir, is if we curse in session, because of our humanity, is that okay?
Curt Widhalm 20:51
So a couple of the articles that are out there, one of the people who has looked into this a little bit more than some others is Timothy J. 2008. Article from J. And Janowitz, says that, in contrast to most other speech, swearing is primarily meant to convey connotative or emotional meaning. In other words, that, you know, a word like shit does not usually necessarily literally mean a pile of feces, it means that there is some sort of emphasis to it based on the context of the language. Yeah, I think that, on that point of, it's about the emphasis of it. Speaking from a position of reality, what you're asking is, is there an ideal language for therapists to use? Hmm. And, again, I cautioned against blanket rules, because there may be polite society that does find it extremely offensive, you know, one of the very weird things about our field is that you may be, you know, talking into your hand as a mock cellular phone with a child in one session. And then your next session, maybe exploring the BDSM desires of somebody who's exploring their sexuality, then rules, even from one session to the next may be impossible to create a absolute value, let alone a strict rule of what ideal language that you can use. It's a very fancy way of saying it depends.
Katie Vernoy 22:36
Well, I'm hearing a whole bunch of it depends. But I think there's that additional element of, if I've, I'm at the end of my resources, I'm exhausted and something is thrown at me in session that I normally could catch, and I don't. And I basically start being a human in the moment, because I have no more resources left is that worthy of a, of a disciplinary action,
Curt Widhalm 23:07
we do have a responsibility to put ourselves in the best position to take care of our clients. And, you know, I can imagine and I've had frustrating sessions over my career that have stirred up emotional reactions in sessions and working through in subsequent sessions or subsequent communications with clients or former clients that there is a ownership of some of that humanity, some people are going to be litigious. Some people are going to file complaints, you know, if I'm going to draw a line on this, you know, not everybody is going to want their therapist to curse. Some people are going to think it's the best fucking thing that's ever happened. But I think that there is probably an absolute line. And even this line is kind of gray in and of itself. But I think that there is a line that is probably the intention of that NASW code, which is where the use of slurs come in. And especially if there's cultural differences between the therapist and the client that, you know, if I have a client who's expressing, hey, I got called the N word down on the streets and is actually using the pejorative language. They're even in all of my trying to connect with a client's me as a very white therapist. I'm staying away from reflecting that word to them. But I think that you know, in any of the expressions that we have, that being very careful about not using slurs is probably a line that we all definitely need to be aware of where that is, and follow that one
Katie Vernoy 24:58
To me taking what you're saying and adding my own thoughts to it is really having common sense and making sure that we have sufficient resources available to either remain appropriate and not become offensive to our clients, if at all possible. I think the other element of it is kind of this common decency and respect. I think if one of my first jobs out of college was working in a group home with kids who had been removed from their parents homes or their caregivers homes, and I was carrying a child, I was working as a childcare worker, not as a therapist, and I was carrying one of the children and hit a pothole in the road, sprained my ankle and went down with the kid. Even in that moment, when I'm in excruciating pain, and the kid is crying because they fell with me, I did not drop the kid, I felt very proud of myself, I was much younger than I would drop them now. I didn't curse. Maybe I would have felt less pain. If I did. It sounds like from the study. But I did it because I was aware, I have a kid with me. And there's enough of a filter for me that I wasn't going to immediately go to "fuck". So in sessions, having that much left that much kind of super ego or that much kind of observer, mindfulness, whatever works for you. But having that much to say, even if I'm in a bad spot, let me first excuse myself, rather than get to a place where I'm cursing without it making much sense, clinically, I think is our responsibility.
Curt Widhalm 26:57
Sure. I think that overall, what we're talking about here is trying to make a case that cursings allowed. And I think that we've at least done a good enough job to say that we shouldn't disallow it. But there's probably got to be some reasons for, hey, here's why you don't. I mean, obviously, this citation that we're referring to, as far as the basis of this episode is necessary that at least in some cases, you shouldn't,
Katie Vernoy 27:28
I think that the know your audience is really important. We've said that throughout. But I think it's also understand the impact of your words. The thing that I grapple with, and I don't know if this is something maybe you grapple with as well is that even when we're feeling especially human, and embodied as a therapist, there is still a power differential. And there still is an expectation that we will show up in a certain way. And I think not showing up in that way, shouldn't be taken lightly. There have been times when my humanity has come through, and I've had ruptures that were not repaired, and clients that left treatment, you know, that frequently, but that has happened, I've had clients who, fortunately have been able to say, hey, and it wasn't necessarily about cursing, but more that kind of humanity piece. But I, I expect it would also happen with cursing. But clients who would come to me and say, You were weird in that session with me what happened there, and then being able to talk about what was happening behind the scenes. But I think there may be clients who have trauma histories around certain ways that people speak, there may be things that you would need to know before you really dig into or become, I think, to free and how you express yourself in your own humanity. I think there's, I think there's times when having curse words in your vocabulary could be a hindrance to you in connecting with clients and keeping the environment safe for them.
Curt Widhalm 29:07
What you're talking about is our ethical guidelines of client beneficence and avoiding maleficence. That what we do is for the benefit of clients, and we don't do the things that harm clients, and the history of, you know, polite society, using proper language has been proven to often been an exclusionary way of keeping diversity out of professional roles. And this has existed and today, and I think that, you know, there's always the default to remaining in this classical professionalism that is the guidance to avoiding that maleficence. When in doubt, be safe.
Katie Vernoy 30:03
Yes.
Curt Widhalm 30:05
But when clients curse first fuck yeah, we're gonna do it.
Katie Vernoy 30:08
Shit.
Curt Widhalm 30:13
We will link to some articles here in the show notes you can find those at mtsgpodcast.com. One piece that we didn't really highlight in the, in the middle of the show that I think is worth pointing out is a master's thesis dissertation from Holly Anne Giffen from 2016. That served as the basis for us finding some of these other articles. We will include a link to that in our show notes to find those at mtsgpodcast.com. And follow us on our social media and join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group and until next time, I'm Curt Wildhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 30:56
Thanks again to our sponsor, Dr. Tequilla Hill therapist.
Curt Widhalm 31:00
If you are tired of going in and out of the burnout cycle and you desire to optimize your wellness, Dr. Tequilla Hill has created and curated a wellness guide specifically with deep compassion for the dynamic personhood of the psychotherapist. Subscribe to Dr. Hills offerings at Bitly forward slash stay well guide that's BIT dot L y forward slash StayWell guides and you can find many of the inspiring offerings from Dr. Hill 17 years as a practice leader, supervisor, mentor, human systems consultant and wellness enthusiast.
Katie Vernoy 31:37
Once again subscribe to Dr. Tequila Hills how to stay well while you work therapists wellness guide at Bitly forward slash stay well guide
Curt Widhalm 31:47
Hey everyone, Kurt and Katie here. If you love our content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more.
Katie Vernoy 32:10
If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution no worries we also have a buy me a coffee profile for one time donations support us at whatever level you can today it really helps us out. You can find us@patreon.com Ford slash MTS G podcast or buy me a coffee.com Ford slash modern therapist. Thanks everyone.
Announcer 32:32
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Thriving Over Surviving: Growing a Practice without Burn Out Curt and Katie interview Megan Gunnell, LMSW, coach, and Founder and Director of Thriving Well Institute. We explore: What changes are therapists facing as they grow their practice in the telehealth age? How do therapists scale their businesses and what should they be aware of? Can a therapist and their practice thrive, or does something have to give? All of this and more in the episode.
Interview with Megan Gunnell, LMSW and Founder & Director of Thriving Well Institute Megan Gunnell LMSW, is Founder and Director of Thriving Well Institute which aids therapist in building the private practices of their dreams. Megan offers a series of courses and individual coaching to aid therapists in expanding their private practices through building group therapy programs, building online courses, creating in person retreats, and even how to build a group practice. Megan teaches therapists how to build not only their practices but themselves up. Megan has been a practicing clinician for over 20 years working as an individual therapist in addition to her coaching and advisory work. Megan started her work as a music therapist, a passion which she still carries to this day.
In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can build their practices without burning out. With the increase in telehealth therapy options, therapists are confronted with a unique problem. How does a therapist build their practice with so many therapeutic options out there, while simultaneously avoiding burn out? Curt and Katie connect with Megan Gunnell to discuss how therapists can make sure they, and their practices, thrive.
“So there are some benefits now, because therapists don't have to just compete with, you know, their audience in a small zip code, they can really expand...”
- Megan Gunnell
How can therapists’ network as telehealth therapists? * Your potential client base has now become the whole state. * Focus on designing your online real estate and increase your SEO. * Joining local Facebook groups of therapists can help expand your referral base. * Speak to specific client issues on your website that you specialize in. * Avoid template and more generalized language in websites and marketing material. * Make your website unique but clear in what you work with.
What is scaling and how does it avoid burn out? * For many therapists, caseloads have increased dramatically over the past couple years * Scaling is more about pivoting than it is creating passive income. * Looking to expand your practice into a group practice can help alleviate referral loads. * Some therapists can avoid burn out by diversifying their workload and reintegrating natural talents such as creativity. * Getting into community, especially with other therapists, is a great way to avoid burn out. * There is still a need for single-focus private practices.
What can therapists do to scale their businesses? * Be in tune with out motivated you are to scale your business; ask how committed am I? * Consistency is key. * Have a willingness to make mistakes and take risks. * Don’t be afraid of failing; use moments of failure to motivate you. * Be open to learning new things like tech, marketing, or automation. * Be realistic of your capacity to take on learning sometimes complicated or frustrating systems that might help your business. * Don’t be afraid of showing who you are as a person as you build out your practice. * It can be scary to expand your practice, and many therapists want assurance, but there is no one way to expand – it’s individual to your unique practice. * It can take support to expand your practice; reach out to your community for help.
“There's absolutely nothing wrong with a single focus, one dimensional private practice where you're just doing one on one client work, there's nothing wrong with that, I want to normalize that, and you can make a great living, you know, and not burnout. But for me, I wanted a different rhythm of my weeks.” – Megan Gunnell
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Dr. Tequilla Hill The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative, and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
Dr. Tequilla Hill a mindful entrepreneur, yoga, and somatic meditation teacher has curated How to Stay Well While you Work Therapist Wellness Guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self care. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to learn more.
Support The Modern Therapist's Survival Guide on Patreon! If you love our content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings, and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more. If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution no worries we also have a buy me a coffee profile for one time donations support us at whatever level you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Stay Well While You Work! Therapist Wellness Guide
Thriving Well Institute Website
Thriving Well Summit May 2022
Megan’s Courses on building groups, practices, and retreats
Megan’s Private Practice
Thrive Advantage Group
Thriving Well Institute Facebook Group
Thriving Therapists Instagram
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Why You Shouldn’t Just Do it All Yourself
Creating Opportunities
How to Navigate Through Your Growing Pains as a Therapist
Making Daily Business Decisions
Clinical Versus Business Decisions
Bad Business Practices
How to Overcome Imposter Syndrome to Leave Your Agency Job
What to Know When Providing Therapy to Elite Athletes
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement:
Patreon
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Podcast Homepage
Therapy Reimagined Homepage
YouTube
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by Dr. Tequilla Hill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
The practice of psychotherapy is unique, creative and multifaceted. However, combining a more demanding schedule and handling our own pandemic related stresses can give rise to experiencing compassion, fatigue, and the dreaded burnout. Unfortunately, many therapists struggle silently with prioritizing their own wellness across their professional journey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Dr. Tequilla Hill a mindful entrepreneur, yoga, and somatic meditation teacher has curated How to Stay Well While you Work Therapist Wellness Guide to support providers that are struggling to manage your own self care. Stay tuned at the end of the episode to learn more.
Katie Vernoy 00:41
Hey everyone, before we get started with the episode Curt and I wanted to make sure you were aware that we have opportunities for you to support us for as little as $2 a month.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Whether you want to make that monthly contribution at patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or a one time donation over at buymeacoffee.com/moderntherapist. Every donation helps us out and continues to help us bring great content to you. Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 01:12
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:28
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm currently at home with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about things that we do the ways that we look at our businesses, and all sorts of other things. Today we are joined by Megan Gunnell, Founder and Director of the Thriving Well Institute, thriving, or thriving wellness? Thriving Well Institute Thriving Well Institute, we have coaches and people talking about scaling your business up and all that kind of stuff today. And we've asked Megan to be a little bit more raw with kind of some of these answers to have a little bit maybe different conversation here today. But thank you for joining us.
Megan Gunnell 02:10
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Katie Vernoy 02:13
We are so excited to have you. You are definitely a friend of the show. And so excited to be here with you and have this conversation. The first question that we ask everyone is, who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Megan Gunnell 02:28
That's a really great way to phrase that as an introductory question, I guess I would identify first as a psychotherapist, I've been a therapist for over 20 years. And then within the last few years, I pivoted into coaching, and now I'm helping a lot of therapists learn how to build practices and scale their business. And along the way in the mix, I also have done a lot of international retreats and develop some courses and do a lot of coaching. So kind of a little bit of a mix of everything.
Curt Widhalm 02:59
And I will be speaking at one of your retreats coming up in May of 2022, the Thrive Summits.
Megan Gunnell 03:06
Yes,
Curt Widhalm 03:06
In St. George Utah, which will include links for where you can get those tickets and come and hang out with us for a few days. I'm looking forward to that.
Megan Gunnell 03:16
It's gonna be great. I can't wait to hear what you have to share with our audience.
Curt Widhalm 03:19
I'm super excited to figure out what I want to share to steering this towards our audience here. We've had coaches on before we've talked about scaling and stuff before, we're promising that this is a different conversation. So what are some new challenges that therapists are facing these days, as far as getting their practices builds, there's been a little thing called the pandemic that people have been dealing with, what are some things that people are facing now that even a few years ago, the story has changed as far as you're seeing it?
Megan Gunnell 03:56
The pandemic certainly has provided us with a bit of a blessing and a curse as therapists so we have all been inundated with a giant, you know, influx of referrals. And so that's been, you know, a little burdensome. I think personally speaking, it's been a little bit hard. That's why actually at the beginning of COVID, I decided after a long time, coming to build a group practice. I didn't really know what I was doing with regards to that. But I knew I had to do it because my waitlist was getting out of control. But the good news is therapists can now serve their clients in a telehealth capacity, which makes it easier than ever to build a new practice. So you don't have to go through all of the hoop jumping of trying to find the perfect brick and mortar space and you know, figuring out everything that goes along with setting up shop, but I think that as far as what's happened now with regards to COVID and the pandemic, therapists are kind of feeling a little bit of both a little bit of a burden, trying to you know, reach all the clients in need and serve them in a way that doesn't lead them to burnout, you know themselves. And also, the ease of telehealth has been kind of a blessing, I would say for a lot of us after we kind of got used to the initial change of that, for me, that was hard to do at first.
Katie Vernoy 05:14
I think it's interesting, because with the pandemic, I think there's been a lot more folks that feel like they can start a solo practice where they can get rolling, but a lot of the guidance around how to build a practice or you know, or how to scale as a practice, like, a lot of it's based on a brick and mortar office, how have business coaches made that transition? Because I know for myself, I've had a lot of different types of conversations. But you know, how you network when your audience is your whole state, you know, or how do you, you know, do some of these things when you don't have in person meetings, maybe this is off base, a different conversation, but it seems very challenging to try to transition all of those kind of old wisdoms into a completely virtual environment?
Megan Gunnell 06:03
Well, that's a great point. And we've had to get really savvy about how we reach people in need, which really turns back to how are you designing your online real estate? So a lot of coaches, including myself, will take a first look at how are people finding you? And when they find you? What are they seeing? You know, are you using the power of SEO, are you speaking to your ideal client in a way that really does reach your entire state. So there are some benefits now, because therapists don't have to just compete with, you know, their audience in a small zip code, they can really expand and some are expanding across state lines. I don't know a lot about that I have not served clients out of state. But it has been interesting to see how therapists are now broadening their reach by really serving clients nationwide. And there's, of course, a lot of things we can do in the online space. So with regards to statewide Facebook groups, there's a there's, for example, a Michigan mental health professionals group, it's been interesting to see kind of the activity in there since COVID, started because it used to be very specific to certain cities. And now it's it's really statewide news and information about who you're serving and what your expertise is, which has been great. Because if there's, you know, maybe there's an expert who could serve a client that I have a referral need for, and they might be five hours away. And that used to be impossible. And now it's not,
Curt Widhalm 07:29
We had a personal friend reach out for a family member with a very specific mental health issue. And it was something where, surprisingly, in my local network of people that I didn't have somebody who's like, that's my go to for this particular issue. And I spent a lot of time going through people's websites, through social media, trying to find even just a couple of people. What I've noticed is that a lot of the trend has been to have kind of this very therapist friendly language on websites, that's just, you know, my ideal client is such and such, and my, you know, practice caters to all of these wonderful, you know, airy fairy sort of enlightenment sort of things, when really what this particular client was looking for is like, hey, I want somebody that works with this diagnosis, and has some experience with this, and isn't going to be spending all the time talking about whatever the social justice news d'jour is. And I think that this is something where as a field, we tend to copy each other a lot. And we tend to find some of this, I'm gonna put my own flavor on this template sort of thing. In the work that you do with with coaching clients, are you really helping some of your therapist is as they're making some of this stuff really be able to speak to particular client issues and that way?
Megan Gunnell 08:57
Absolutely. And I agree with you, because I am not a fan of the copy and paste method. I see that a lot from other spaces and people who do support therapists in different ways. And I'm just not a fan of that. Because I think that in order for a therapist, for example, that I'm working with individually, to really be able to, you know, execute kind of that marketing piece successfully, we have to get crystal clear on what their expertise is and what they want to do, and not gloss over it and not make it sound really coachy or really Instagrammy or, you know, like what you're saying kind of too polished or really soft. I try to drill down pretty deep when I'm working one on one with someone to really try to understand what exactly is your area of expertise, what exactly is, you know, your training and what are we trying to say in terms of reaching your ideal clients. So it has to be, I think, very individualized, it has to be a very unique, one on one process. And I think you can tell when you look at companies that, for example, do website building for therapist, some of them are very copy, paste. And after a while that starts to get blurry. And I like clear, I just work in a different way when it comes to that with therapist.
Katie Vernoy 10:19
There's a lot of conversation, especially now because we can do therapy all the way across the state. Oftentimes across state lines, if you start getting licensed in other places, we can start to fill up practices pretty easily. And and I think you were talking earlier about like, trying to figure out how to do this without avoiding burnout. Mm hmm. To avoid burnout. I can speak. And so I think it's something where one of the mechanisms that people talk about is scaling. And so, you know, increasing income without doing it yourself or whatever, or adding additional income streams. And so to me, it feels like we're moving from a space of, oh, my gosh, how do I do my practice? How do I stand out in this big field to, okay, I'm overwhelmed too many clients. And I feel like I'm grinding. And so to me, it feels like there's a lot of us that get to this place of scaling, or whether it's building additional income streams that we that feels like the mechanism. What do you think about that trend? I mean, I know that's kind of what you do. And that's what you've done for yourself. But what do you think about that trend, because it feels like that there's almost something not sustainable about just a single, I'm a therapist, I have a therapy practice, period.
Megan Gunnell 11:34
I think that over the last couple years, especially with the pandemic, our case loads have changed. So for many of us, we had, you know, case loads, we could manage in terms of number and in terms of severity of cases, in terms of the intensity of the clients we were working with and their cases and what they needed. And then the pandemic hit. And if you're like me, it went from like a manageable load and a manageable level of intensity with client work to what felt like everyone was in trauma and crisis and major grief and loss, major anxiety, you know, major life transitions, like, it just went from zero to 1000. And at the same time, we were handling COVID ourselves as therapist. So I think this idea of scaling has become more pronounced in the last couple years, because of COVID. So when you think of scaling, and it's not for me, it's not passive income entirely. It's about pivoting. So I knew that when I hit that wall of I'm doing 35 clients a week for 10 years, and there was a reason why I was doing that I was the only provider for my household of four, my husband was running a business that was not lucrative. And we were we agreed to do that for a while. And when we got to the end of that, or I got to the end of that I felt really burned out really on the edge, I would say I was not thriving, I would come home and just feel like I couldn't talk to my family, I felt very negatively impacted by the intensity of the load. And I missed all the other things that I love doing. So I miss the creative side of, you know, creating community and creating groups and creating retreats and creating different kinds of offers. So I needed that I needed that more than ever. And then COVID hit. And I thought how am I going to do this because I'm at capacity. Yeah, so I built the group because I thought if I can build a group, I can kind of expand my offerings, serve more clients in need without taking all the new referrals myself and start to slowly scale back my one on one schedule. So I have more freedom to do some of these other things that really interests me.
Katie Vernoy 13:49
I think that's really strong because I there's this element of, it's not like, hey, I'm not making enough money, let's do a side hustle. It's, I need the diversity of types of work. And I think that's very true for me as well. When I went out on my own. I had been doing a lot of other things. And for me, solely doing a therapy practice wasn't sufficient to kind of keep me engaged. I don't know that boredom is necessarily a good way to describe it. But there's that kind of burnout of just not being able to fire on everything, you know, like doing all the things and all the different types of things.
Curt Widhalm 14:22
Almost like a creative itch. Yes, exactly.
Megan Gunnell 14:26
That's it. Yeah. And I felt that too. And I mean, I was a music therapist before I was a psychotherapist. So I had years and years of doing really creative work. You know, I did a lot of music work. I did, you know, drum circles and mandalas and mask making and art making and guided imagery and meditation and we worked with, you know, all different kinds of integrative practitioners. So, my job as a music therapist, while it wasn't really is as deep as my work as a psychotherapist, it was there was a lot of variety there. And so I kind of missed that and I think honestly, especially doing exclusive telehealth, it can be also kind of lonely as to do this one on one work write client after client after client and then you're done. And there's no like watercooler chit chat anymore when you're in an office where there's a few people or, you know, even just seeing people coming and going, even if you have your own solo brick and mortar, but it's, it's just I needed more, I quickly realized as the Thriving Therapist Community really started actually in December 2019. And it grew from zero to 13,000 members in two years. And that told me something about what people really wanted. And I think what they wanted was a community of therapists who really understood them. And they wanted a place to be inspired to learn how to thrive again, that could be personally that could be professionally, you know, that might be about building a practice for the first time and pivoting out of an agency or hospital job. And that might have been learning how to scale how to build a group therapy group, or how to build an online course or how to build a retreat. There were lots of things I was hearing from this community that made me also excited about teaching and training other therapists on how to do this, too. So that's been really a great way to diversify my everyday work life too.
Curt Widhalm 16:16
I'm really glad to hear you framing it this way. Because when we were sending questions over to Megan, before the show of here's some things that we might want to talk about, I was in a snarky mood, admittedly, at the time, just and maybe was looking at some of these questions around, like, how do I get multiple streams of income from maybe a little bit more pessimistic place of is our fields really that bad, where people are immediately looking at like, I have to supplement my income with something else, but you've got this really nice way of looking at it, and maybe helping people to encourage like, I'm feeling unfulfilled in this particular area, I need this variety to be able to round out how I can show up in my business and not just have to, like stop working and go do a hobby for free on the side that is really supportive here. So I don't know if there's still a question on this of like, what's wrong with our field where we can only just do like therapy as as our income here, but for hearing you talk, it seems like some of our listeners who have reached out to us in the past as far as like, what if I don't want to scale up or do all of these things, there's still this really wonderful permission for them to be able to do what you're doing, rock on, if that's what's working for you go with it.
Megan Gunnell 17:35
Right. There's nothing wrong with that. I think that's the bottom line. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a single focus, one dimensional private practice where you're just doing one on one client work, there's nothing wrong with that, I want to normalize that, and you can make a great living, you know, and not burnout. But for me, I wanted a different rhythm of my weeks. And so I will, I'll paint the picture. I mean, honestly, for the 10 years that my husband and I were getting on this business idea for him. And I was the primary earner, I was doing seven clients a day, five days a week back to back with no lunch, and I would like eat cheese stick and like some nuts, like, you know, really fast between sessions, I was whipping through notes. I was like, it was like a revolving door. It was just, I mean, every single slot was filled every single day, Monday through Friday, you know, I mean, I would pound it out. And it was just like non-stop, I remember just running to like, refresh my tea, run to the bathroom, like do a very fast note, you know, chew a piece of gum, you know, turn around and open the door and go again. And it was really hard to do that. I'll paint a different picture of what my life looks like now that I've learned how to scale. Yesterday, I saw two individual clients, I did two coaching calls. And I spent two and a half hours in a pottery studio with my husband throwing clay on a wheel so and then we came home and made a great dinner. And we talked to our daughter watched a show and it was like a relaxing, engaging, beautiful, and it was a day and it was more lucrative for me than anything I've ever done previously, because I've learned how to create other streams of income. So I have some that are passive and some that require active engagement. But I really love the flow. I mean, my husband's home today and he said after your podcast interview, we could go for a walk. We could run downtown Detroit for a minute, I have to get my glasses repaired and you know, we could grab a coffee. And that was never possible before. So I mean, I would bang out these seven in a row sessions Monday through Friday, year after year and come home and just feel like don't talk to me. I mean, I remember feeling so edgy with my family that I didn't like who I was becoming. So I feel like a lot of therapists don't want to talk about that. They don't want to admit that that might be happening. I knew I was hitting burnout. 35 a week is ridiculous and let alone doing it for one year, but I kept it up almost a decade. And it was insane. I just I'm grateful for the opportunity to, you know, move into economy of scale. And so if I can serve 100 people and an online course, that I work to make once and I make it, you know, I put a lot of investment into it, but I, you know, can get that as passive income, then that affords me an opportunity to have a different kind of lifestyle. And that's, for me, very satisfying.
Curt Widhalm 20:31
You talk about your transition from doing that direct client work to what it takes to have this because we all know on this podcast that it's not just like, hey, here's a new avenue of my business, it actually takes some work. And it takes some mistakes, too,
Katie Vernoy 20:50
A lot of work, let's just, it takes a lot of work.
Curt Widhalm 20:54
It's not a side hustle, it's an additional hustle.
Katie Vernoy 20:57
Mm hmm.
Megan Gunnell 20:59
It is. Well, for me, it was easy, because I live on Facebook. And so for me to build a Facebook group, and start that community where I started really engaging, and really listening to my audience to find out exactly what their problems and struggles were, and what their wins and victories were and where they needed support or help. I was spending every minute that I had, you know, on Facebook, between sessions after sessions in the evening, early in the morning, trying to understand and learn about this community. And as I did that, I started to think about what I was hearing. And then I built an offer based on what I was hearing from my audience. So when I do coaching for people, and I talk about how to build passive income, or additional streams of income, I always start with this message, you have to listen to the audience in front of you. And prior to having the Thriving Therapist Community where I was serving all these therapists, I was listening to my audience of clients. And so that's where the first retreats were born. That's where my first group therapy groups were born. And they came from hearing over and over, the same kind of echoed cry from my clients that which was what I wouldn't do for a weekend away. Like I'm a stressed out busy working mom, and I'm overwhelmed and what I wouldn't give, you know, to, like, have a have a weekend for me where all my meals were taking care. I mean, they wrote the retreats for me. You know, they're like, if I could get a massage, if I could do yoga, I could have, you know, great food and just go away for the weekend and come back feeling refreshed. I was like, you got it.
Katie Vernoy 22:38
There you go.
Megan Gunnell 22:39
You know. So that's part of that is you hear that? You know, in your audience.
Katie Vernoy 22:44
Yeah, I think that's interesting. Because when you talk about being on Facebook all the time, I was going like, wow, that sounds awful to me. So I was like, well, that's not for me. So that's good to know. But I think you you did talk about there's a lot of different ways to listen to your audience. There's so many therapists that I'm sure you talk to that Curt and I talk to you that have all of these things, whether it's a course that can augment the work they're doing with their therapy clients, if it's retreats, any of these things like they have a clear need. And yet they still don't feel like they can do it. And so that that's the part where, first off, we're saying, Oh, hey, you can do it and still keep your therapy practice, you don't have to stop being a therapist, maybe just put a balance back, or so that you can still serve some clients and have more of a balanced lifestyle. You can also add this extra element of yourself of creativity and diversity of work schedule, and all of those things. And people are terrified. What are what do you think that's about?
Megan Gunnell 23:45
I think that it's about not having the confidence, the know how the accountability or the roadmap and I think a lot of therapists really want a guarantee, you know, if they're going to put a lot of time and energy into doing something like this. They're really hoping that it's going to pay off. And I was too when I believe me when I put down a $17,000 deposit for the first Costa Rica retreat I ever hosted. I looked at my colleague and I was like this is either going to be wildly successful, or the most expensive vacation we've ever taken. Oh, yeah, you know, it's a little scary. Yeah, to do super scary. Super, super scary. That's part of it. And I think, honestly, part of it is just time. I think a lot of people are waiting for the right time to do this and sort of like waiting for the right time for anything right? There's never really a right time to have a baby or right time to go back to grad school or right time to buy a house or whatever. You're just doing these things and kind of folding it into your busy you know, crazy busy life. A lot of therapists feel overwhelmed at the idea of scaling and they don't have a clear roadmap. And so without that or without accountability, it becomes very easy. difficult, I think to move these thoughts into action, you know, so a lot of times people will be thinking about doing some of these things for a really long time. But I love to move them from thinking to doing and that that takes a little bit of support.
Katie Vernoy 25:14
Yeah, exactly.
Curt Widhalm 25:16
Hearing all of the successes that many people in our space occupied a lot of the steps that we've done to get to where we are with our various projects, podcast courses, conferences, summits, this kind of stuff, we're very easy to share all of the successes that we've had, what are some things that you struggled with or had some mistakes along the way that even with a good roadmap just didn't work out? And how did you handle those?
Megan Gunnell 25:44
I'll tell you about one that really stands out. And this was very early on, as I was, I was a brand new therapist, and I wanted to build a music meditation evening at and use our group space at the group practice office that I was, you know, working at, and my dad had said to me, Hey, you know, after you run that thing, why don't we go out for dinner that night? And I was like, sounds great. You know, I said, Why don't you just come you know, so I invited my dad to come, I brought my harp, I played the harp, and I was like, really kind of missing the music part of my life. And I knew that I used to provide music meditations all the time for patients in pain, and, you know, labor and delivery and hospice. And I brought the harp to the bedside, and I kind of like was just missing a little bit of that wonderful music offering. And so I was thinking, this will be cool, I'll make a flyer, this is like back in, like 2005, or something. Like, I'll make a flyer, and I'm going to hang it up. And I'm going to tell a few clients, and I'm going to have this, and I'm going to host this thing, I ended up setting it all up, I put chairs in a circle. And I was like, super excited about it. And I thought maybe they would just arrived like I would just have this roomful of people, and they would just be there ready to pay me for this thing. They were just like, attended, there was no registration. There was no like, you know, pay ahead, I had no idea what was gonna happen. And so dad, in a room full of like 30 chairs, and me and my heart, and I just kept looking at him. And he's like, I think people might still be coming. He's like, it's kind of maybe it's parking. He was like, so nice. Nobody came, oh, it was just this emotionally wounding thing for me. But what I learned from that is, you have to put things in front of people in a way that makes sense, you know, and you have to put it in front of them without stress points for registration, you have to have them pay ahead. And you have to know what you're doing. Like, there were just so many lessons that I learned from that. And I'm glad I did it and fell on my face with it. Because I mean, and that's, that's a small example. But it always kind of just reminds me to stay humble. Because like, I think when we're trying to start some of these things, it's just, it's scary and overwhelming. And we're like, Will anybody want it? Will anybody show up? You know?
Katie Vernoy 28:01
Well, that leads me to a question? Because I know I've had my own failures, and I won't share them right now. Or they were putting you on the hot seat, not me. I think it's something where that experience might be someone sign. I'm not cut out for this, right? And so how does someone know if they are the type of person that can add something on the side? Or they can scale? Because I think the common thing that said is like, well, all you got to do is scale? And it's like no, not everyone can actually do this, not everyone is set aside, can really do this side hustle or whatever, like it's just not really possible for everyone. Initial failure, I put that in air quotes, clearly was not indicative of your success. And so how does someone know if it's right for them?
Megan Gunnell 28:48
This is a great question. There's a few factors that make it right for someone to be able to scale. First of all, I think they should be in tune with how motivated they are. So I like to say like, are you really motivated to do this? Or are you just thinking about it, and then it goes away? Is it kind of like a fire burning in your gut where you just wake up every day thinking about doing something like that, because if it is, then continue to move forward. The other thing I would say is people need to have a willingness, they need to be willing to make mistakes, they have to be willing to learn new things like tech stuff, or marketing stuff, or automation, or funnels or different kinds of systems and payment integrations that sometimes drive you crazy. They have to also have a willingness to stay consistent. And that was part of what drove me to refine my offer and put it out there again, and fill the room the second time I tried it and so that's I think I also have a little bit of like, competitive spirit inside of me. So maybe that's another factor that helps us like, Oh, that one flopped. Well, the next one is going to be like standing room only. You know, I just kind of had this like quest to do it, you know? Yeah, but I think you have to also ask yourself Are you willing to take a risk? Because some of these things involve emotional and financial and mental kind of risks that we take of like, can we really put ourselves out there? And do we really feel like we have something that is worthy of sharing that's beyond that one on one model of care. And if you're creative, and you're innovative, and you're motivated, and you're organized, and you have willingness, then I think you've got everything you need to make it happen.
Curt Widhalm 30:29
That part that you're talking about, that really stands out to me, and just kind of reflecting back on some of the projects and stuff that we've done is, it's kind of easy to say, Yes, I am ready to commit to these things, I can maybe financially afford it, maybe not. But it's also having kind of the plan from the beginning to deal with the stress that comes in a new way of being able to, it's easy a year from someplace to be like, Alright, I'm going to chunk down this deposit. And then it's all of the days in between where it's not just kind of that one day where you're turning to your partner. But it's also you know, Katie, and I had tons of meetings leading up to Therapy Reimagined,
Katie Vernoy 31:10
So many meetings.
Curt Widhalm 31:11
Like, I'm really glad I have a partner on this. That's understanding what I'm going through. But it's also having a plan for that psychological, emotional self care aspect of it as it pertains to this kind of growth.
Megan Gunnell 31:26
Absolutely. And it can be a real roller coaster. Every time I was doing I was I used to do open and close cart for my online course until I like emotionally couldn't handle it anymore. And now it's just open. So if somebody wants to buy the, you know how to build a course, or how to build a practice course, they can just go in and buy it. But I used to have these launches. And I hated the feeling of that. Because it was so much build up so much build up, and it was so exciting. And you would throw it out there and like all these people register. And then the second day, you kind of plummet, you know, on day three is even worse, because you're like, does anybody know the card is still open, you know, and then you're coming up to the close. And then tons of people register again. And so you're on a high and like, you just have this horrible, like, high and low. And that was it. That doesn't feel good to me, it didn't feel very grounded, or like it just it wasn't right for me. So I changed the model of delivery. And that's the beauty of owning your own business and making up these things is right, having the creative power to kind of do something different and pivot if it doesn't work for you. So I've enjoyed not doing launches, because it is your right, that emotional and soul care that we have to do as therapists to want to scale and do something bigger and have a bigger impact. There's all that excitement that goes into this. But I mean, to be totally honest, on the other side of it, sometimes it's there's a lot of self doubt. And it can be really scary. And you know, there's times when you're awake at night thinking does anybody want to do this? Was this a really stupid idea, or, you know, that still happens to me too. But again, going back to the recipe of the character traits that I think make it successful for therapists, part of it is that willingness, and part of it is just staying consistent. Because if we can stay consistent to what we're, you know, showing up for and we get it in front of the right people. And we really have listened carefully to what people are asking for and then build something that works. We're either learning about it, or we're executing something successful. And both of those are wins in my mind.
Katie Vernoy 33:33
Oh, that's great. We could talk to you forever. We are short on time and you have so much going on. So if you wouldn't mind sharing where can people find you and all the stuff that you're doing?
Megan Gunnell 33:45
You can become a member of the Thriving Therapist Facebook community, and you can find me at thrivingwellinstitute.com. We do have the Thrive Summit coming up in May, so I can't wait to meet you in person Curt it's gonna be great. And that's a wonderful opportunity to get part retreat part inspirational learning summit, and it's gonna be just a fabulous four day experience out in the red rocks of Utah so I can't wait to learn and be inspired and get a maybe a mud wrap or something while I'mout there too.
Curt Widhalm 34:16
One of the things that I love about the summit is a that I'm speaking there but the be that you very intentionally put like there's no learning going on at this time. This is the there are built in times to the schedule of like, go swim, go exercise, go biking. Go don't Yeah. And I really like that balance. You know, we did not do that with the therapy reimagined conferences and you know, there's always that that director's choice of like, are we trying to fill it all with education or and I really appreciate that you're creating that balance for your attendees there.
Megan Gunnell 34:59
I'm excited about that. And I did that with a lot of intentionality because I knew that I could hear from the audience that was in front of me that people were really burned out. And people were really desperate for a break and they want it to feel restored. It isn't like your typical type of conference where you're going back to back into session after session and you leave and you're a little overstimulated or wiped out by the end. I wanted people to leave feeling rested and refreshed and able to implement what they did learn in a very select few presentations. I didn't want it to be like, you know, 50 different presentations in four days. I wanted it to be like nine, you know, so they can leave and really, really execute something successful.
Curt Widhalm 35:42
Awesome. We will include links to all of Megan's stuff in our show notes. You can find those over at MTSGpodcast.com. And follow us on our social media. Join our Facebook group if you're not yet a member of the modern therapist group. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Megan Gunnell.
Megan Gunnell 36:00
Thank you so much.
Katie Vernoy 36:01
Thanks again to our sponsor, Dr. Tequilla Hill therapist.
Curt Widhalm 36:05
If you are tired of going in and out of the burnout cycle and you desire to optimize your wellness, Dr. Tequilla Hill has created and curated a wellness guide specifically with deep compassion for the dynamic personhood of the psychotherapist. Subscribe to Dr. Hills offerings at Bitly forward slash stay well guide that's bit.ly/staywellguide and you can find many of the inspiring offerings from Dr. Hills 17 years as a practice leader, supervisor, mentor, human systems consultant and wellness enthusiast.
Katie Vernoy 36:42
Once again subscribe to Dr. Tequilla Hills How to Stay Well While you Work Therapist Wellness Guide at Bit.ly/staywellguide.
Curt Widhalm 36:52
Hey everyone, Curt and Katie here. If you love our content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more.
Katie Vernoy 37:15
If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution no worries we also have a buy me a coffee profile for one time donations support us at whatever level you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or buymea coffee.com/moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Megan Gunnell 37:37
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
What’s New in the DSM-5-TR? Curt and Katie interview Dr. Michael B. First, MD, editor and co-chair of the American Psychiatric Associations’ DSM-5 Text revision, coming out March 2022. We explore: What are the differences between a full update and a text revision? What changes have been made (and how were these changes decided)? What new diagnoses can we expect? Can clinicians continue to use the older DSM-5? How can clinicians advocate for changes in future versions of the DSM? All of this and more in the episode.
Interview with Dr. Michael B. First, MD Michael B. First, M.D, is a Professor of Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia University, a Research Psychiatrist in the Division of Behavioral Health Sciences and Policy Research, Diagnosis and Assessment Unit at the New York State Psychiatric Institute, and maintains a schematherapy and psychopharmacology practice in Manhattan. Dr. First is a nationally and internationally recognized expert on psychiatric diagnosis and assessment issues and has conducted expert forensic psychiatric evaluations in both civil and criminal matters, including the 2006 trail of the 9/11 terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui. Dr. First is the Editor and Co-chair of the American Psychiatric Associations’ DSM-5 text revision, Editorial and Coding Consultant for the DSM-5, and the chief technical and editorial consultant on the World Health Organization’s ICD-11 revision project. Dr. First was the Editor of the DSM-IV-TR, and the Editor of Text and Criteria for DSM-IV and the American Psychiatric Associations’ Handbook on Psychiatric Measures. He has co-authored and co-edited a number of books, including the fourth edition of the two-volume psychiatry textbook, A Research Agenda for DSM-V, the DSM-5 Handbook for Differential Diagnosis, the Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-F (SCID-5) and Learning DSM-5 by Case Example. He has trained thousands of clinicians and researchers in diagnostic assessment and differential diagnosis.
In this podcast episode we talk about latest updates for the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM-5-TR. With the upcoming release of the new DSM-5-TR, Curt and Katie reached out to Dr. First, the editor and co-chair of the American Psychiatric Association’s DSM-5-TR, to find out what’s new and how the DSM committee works.
“During the development of [DSM-5-]TR, George Floyd happened, and our entire consciousness about systemic racism became sort of raised. Then the question was, are there things in the DSM that are reflective of this kind of systemic racism? So, we actually created a committee that went through the entire DSM.” – Dr. Michael First
What changes have been made in the new DSM-5-TR? * Text revisions occur to avoid letting the text become stale while supporting ongoing updates. * New disorders, specifically Prolonged Grief Disorder, have been added. * New codes, modeled off symptom codes, created for documenting suicidality and non-suicidal self-injury with another diagnosis. * New categories of Unspecified Mood Disorder. * New Criteria set for Autism Spectrum Disorder which is more conservative.
How are cultural differences addressed in the DSM-5-TR? * Starting with DSM-IV, there has been a special committee created for culture and culture related issues * Hypothetically, the criteria sets should apply to everyone, but in the text, there is a section on Culture Related Features which is more specific. * The impact of the George Floyd protests inspired the creation of a new committee to look for systemic racism, lack of nuances, and prevalence issues within the DSM. * There are conflicting opinions if “transness” should be included in the DSM and if it’s even a mental disorder. * As the DSM is a diagnostic tool to code for insurance, the DSM takes the stance that the Gender Dysphoria diagnosis stay included so individuals can have access to medical intervention and treatment. * The Steering Committee for new diagnosis is small, but there is diversity. * Before a diagnosis is approved, it is posted for 45 days on the DSM website for all, including people with lived experience, to comment and advocate for diversity
What is the Process for Accepting New Diagnose? * The steering committee accepts proposals through the DSM portal for new diagnosis * Some diagnoses are qualified based on the United States’ continued use of ICD-10, whereas the ICD-11 is more progressive. * With Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, some of the criteria from the ICD have been incorporated into the DSM diagnosis of PTSD * Proposals are floated around often, but they often don’t have enough empirical research yet. * Proposals need to show a pool of patients who don’t fit other diagnoses, a gap in treatment, and a difference from other possible similar diagnoses. * New diagnoses will be approved on a continuum, making the electronic DSM-V-TR the most up to date resource. * The committee is more conservative in adding a new diagnosis to the DSM because it is hard to remove a diagnosis once it is included.
“I'd say the biggest [change] is Prolonged Grief Disorder… Now for a number of years, the concept of Prolonged Grief Disorder was really a hole in the diagnostic system… patients were out there that… were suffering, so they had some kind of mental disorder… That's not Major Depression, you can have Major Depression, and Prolonged Grief Disorder. But they're not the same at all. Hardly any overlap. So there's a big hole in the system that allows people to come into your office and not have any place for them.” – Dr. Michael First
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: SuperBill Interested in making it easier for your clients to use their out-of-network-benefits for therapy? SuperBill is a service that can help your clients get reimbursed without having to jump through hoops. Getting started is simple - clients complete a quick, HIPAA-compliant sign-up process, and you send their superbills directly to us so that we can file claims with their insurance companies. No more spending hours on the phone wrangling with insurance companies for reimbursement. Superbill eliminates that hassle, and clients just pay a low monthly fee for the service.
If your practice doesn’t accept insurance, SuperBill can help your clients get reimbursed. SuperBill is free for therapists, and your clients can use the code SUPERBILL22 to get a free month of SuperBill. Also, you can earn $100 for every therapist you refer to SuperBill. After your clients complete the one-time, HIPAA-compliant onboarding process, you can just send their superbills to claims@thesuperbill.com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement. By helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies, SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%. The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Purchase the DSM-5-TR
Learn about the DSM
Learn about the Changes for the DSM-5-TR
Dr. Michael First’s Email
Dr. Michael First’s Website
Dr. Michael First on Wikipedia
Provide Feedback on the DSM
Submit Proposals for Changes to DSM-5
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
What the Grief Just Happened?
Antiracist Practices in the Room with Dr. Allen Lipscomb
Trans Resilience and Gender Euphoria
Death, Dying, and Grief with Jill Johnson-Young, LCSW
On the APA Guidelines for Boys and Men
What to Know When Providing Therapy to Elite Athletes
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Podcast Homepage
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Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
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Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt and Katie 00:00
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Announcer 00:42
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:58
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about all the things that we do. And we have a pretty big milestone coming up in our profession here where the DSM-5 is transforming into the DSM-5-TR. And we are joined today by one of the very instrumental people behind the updates to this Dr. Michael First. He's professor of psychiatry at Columbia University and editor and co-chair of the DSM-5 talking to us about some of the exciting updates that are happening and a little bit of the process behind it. So thank you very much for joining us here today Dr. First.
Dr. Michael First 01:44
Really, it's a pleasure to be here.
Katie Vernoy 01:46
We're so excited to have you and to have this conversation, we had reached out to our audience for some questions. So we'll try to get to some of those. But our first question that we ask all of our guests is, who are you and what are you putting out into the world?
Dr. Michael First 02:00
Okay, so um, I have a position at Columbia University. I also work at the New York state psychiatric institute. I also have a private practice in New York City, and also a forensic practice. That's pretty pretty busy. And I've my main thing to my life has been DSM, I actually got involved all the way back first at the VA that year, DSM-3 came out in 1986, because I did my residency at Columbia, where Robert Spitzer, who is the king, or whatever, he said, he created the DSM, he put it on the map, so I got to work with him. And I've been working with him and also with the person who did DSM for Alan Francis. And so I've been had my finger in some way, shape, or form every DSM. Oh, and I also work on the ICD 11, who has their own classification. And they're just recently updated theirs as well. So I asked to work on that project.
Katie Vernoy 02:54
Wow, that's awesome.
Curt Widhalm 02:56
So some of us have been practicing a while, my grad school we were on the DSM-4-TR. So I got to see through the transition of DSM-5, but can you maybe provide a little bit of context for what's the goal of a text revision as opposed to a full update and looking at, you know, just kind of jumping into the next number here.
Dr. Michael First 03:18
Let me give you a background of how the text, the 4-TR came about, there was those 3-TR, for example, was the first TR. So it's all started way back in 1980, with DSM-3, which was the first version that had diagnostic criteria. When they were working on it, they had this idea that it was just something that psychiatrist would be interested in. When they publish it, it became this huge hit, you know, it's sold millions of copies really transformed the field, people found that very, very useful. And so, seven years later, they did the DSM-3 are now why that wasn't called DSM-4 simply because the DSM are actually linked to the ICD. And ICD 10 was supposed to be coming out in 1992 or so. Here we were in 1987 today, so we're actually this is an in between DSM-3, DSM 4- revision, so that's why it was called the three R, then DSM-4 comes out in 1994. And then after DSM-4 came out, there was a lot of pushback in the field about APA grinding out a new DSM, every seven years, everybody had to learn it. So things really put the brakes on the DSM. So APA made a decision that we're not going to seven years from now, I'll do with the DSM-5 we're gonna wait and see. What the downside of doing that is the text which is 90 something percent of the book is actually text not just the criteria detects is a really good resource for mental health professionals about diagnosis and prevalence doesn't know anything but treatment, but it's kind of like a super textbook in the sense that it's got the top people in the world working on it. They've kept waiting, waiting, waiting DSM-5, which was clearly going to be at least 10 years if not more away. It ended up being closer to 20 years, the text would have gotten very stale. So that was the motivation to do the DSM-4-TR. Or when they did the 4-TR, or they made the decision, so people wouldn't be bent out of shape about yet another DSM only to revise the text, the diagnostic criteria will go into be unchanged, it turned out there for very, very small changes, because a couple of errors has been found in the DSM 4 like, for example, Tourette's, tic disorders had requirement that the, in order to call somebody diagnose somebody with Tourette's, it had to cause clinically significant impairment and distress. That's a standard DSM phrase. So you're trying to differentiate things that aren't problems, from things that are problems, the neurologist got all bent out of shape about that ticks a tick whether or not it causes impairment, it's still a tick. So we, for example, we deleted that, that criteria, but it's very small stuff like that. So that's why the TR really was just a text revision. So DSM-5 didn't come out until 2013. So with DSM-5 came out, it was a complete redo of all the criteria and the text. And then moving forward, what happened was, is the DSM-5-TR, now, now DSM-5-TR is actually different than the 4-TR, because it is this time, the criteria have changed, they've been changing the criteria. And the way that was accomplished was the fact that we now have APA as a process in place to allow changes to be made on an ongoing basis. That was one of the reasons why the DSM-4 criteria were changed was every time they do a revision, it's a huge expensive, you know, hundreds of people involved process and it because you really want to every time there's a change, you want to make sure that changes, it's been well researched, you consider the pros and cons. So it's a big process. So they realized that moving forward, they APA realized that now that we're not stuck using just books, they could actually have changes made in the DSM on an ongoing basis. And that's what happened since DSM-5 came out. In 2013, there's been a number of changes in the criteria set. So the criteria sets in there five to about 70 of them have some changes, most of them are very, very minor, you're correcting tiny errors, but there's some that are significant. So one of the differences, of course, is that when 4-TR are came out, you could say I want to buy that still say that about five here, but you can say I care about the criteria that he diagnoses, I don't really need to see the text. That's not true. This time, the actual definitions have changed. There's a new disorder in the DSM-5-TR.
Katie Vernoy 07:39
What are the big important changes that we should know about in DSM-5-TR?
Dr. Michael First 07:40
So we've added a disorder it's Prolonged Grief Disorder. So it's much more clinically relevant. The DSM-5-TR, really than the 4-TR was I'd say the biggest is Prolonged Grief Disorder. So you know, when you whenever a new disorders, DSM, that's big news, I've been going through many, many DSM, the press always gets what's the new disorder. So this is a this disorder was has been researched. Now for a number of years, let me the concept of Prolonged Grief Disorder is really a hole in the diagnostic system. So there are individuals who after losing a loved one, normally, you basically adjust at some point, it's always painful maybe to think about the loved one, but you move on with your life. And in that that's a very important part of the grieving process. There are individuals where they're unable to do that they're basically stuck in a grief reaction, month after month. So after a year has elapsed in the person's grieving and preoccupied with grieving, then you could meet the criteria for Prolonged Grief Disorder. So it's can be given until at least a year has elapsed. And these are individuals or a number of individuals who have that problem. And it was really unrecognized, wasn't in the system at all. Now in DSM-5 came out, and there's a pending research appendix in the back. So when DSM-5 was was in preparation, we already knew about this condition, and there was some controversy about how best to define it. So they actually put something in the research appendix called persistent, complex bereavement disorder in the back that is the precursor to what's now called Prolonged Grief Disorder. So it's been around but, So now, after this, we finally got to the point, we felt that the research was clear enough, the case was compelling enough that it would do more harm than good to put it in there. And it went through all the processes within the APA for approval, and it was approved and added to the online version, and now that's going it's in the hardcopy version as well. That's by far the biggest change. Probably the next biggest change has to do with suicide. Now suicide. If you look at the DSM now, suicide is basically a criterion in major depressive episodes, criterion number nine, that's like the biggest suicide of course, as a therapist, what are the most important things that we have to deal with very, very important but the DSM has a little sidelight so to speak. So we felt it was very important for therapists and clinicians and researchers to have a way to indicate the presence of suicidal behavior, independent of depression. Suicidal behavior can occur in a wide variety of mental disorders including no mental disorder at all. So we wanted to have a way to indicate that. So it turns out that there's a mechanism within the ICD 10, which is the coding system. You everybody know that when you write down the diagnostic code, you get paid. That's your that's how the DSM code, that's the code from the International Classification of Diseases, which is a government controlled system, we realize that there are these things called symptom codes in the ICD 10, which are not disorders, but they allow you to list a particular symptom, that is of particular importance. So we actually went and requested from the NCHS, the National Center for Health Statistics to have a new code created for suicidal behavior, current and history of suicidal behavior, and also current non suicidal self injury and history of non suicidal self injury. So there's four separate codes that are now in the book that will allow you, it's optional, obviously, to list those along with the diagnosis. So if you have somebody with Major Depressive Disorder, who's suicidal, you would list both major depressive disorder as a diagnosis. And we also list this special code. In addition, that's so that's a really nice addition. The rest are not quite... so one of them is there's a category that's been added actually restored, called unspecified mood disorder. And what's that? Why is that a big deal? It turns out that, you know, when you first see somebody who has a mixture of mood symptoms, you have to right, you're one of the things about getting paid is you need every time you see the patient or his client, you need to write down a diagnosis.
Katie Vernoy 08:32
Yep!
Dr. Michael First 08:32
What the person look like during that meeting. So let's say you have your first meeting with a client, and they have this, you know, mix of irritability and agitation and a little sad, what would you call that? And you say, Well, you know, I'm going to have to look into maybe I'll check their history more speak to some other previous treaters, we got to write something down. So what the DSM does in general, when you see someone and you don't know what the diagnosis is yet, either because it doesn't fit into any of the diagnoses, or because you simply don't have enough information. That's where these unspecified codes come from. So they typically do you see somebody who is psychotic, and either you don't have enough time to figure out what diagnosis it is, or there simply doesn't fit in the type of psychosis doesn't fit into any diagnosis, you would write down Psychotic Disorder, unspecified. So for mood, there is Bipolar Disorder, unspecified, and Depressive Disorder unspecified. The question is that person who is agitated and irritable, what is it? What would you call that? And there's some implication, if you wrote down Bipolar Disorder, unspecified, then in their record their medical record, the rest of their life will be something that says Bipolar disorder, when in fact, this may simply morph into a case of Major Depressive Disorder, because irritability and agitation is commonly seen in depression. So the real what we had to do, we introduced a new unspecified category that allows you to be neutral about whether it's bipolar or depression. So that's why it's called Unspecified Mood Disorder, which you can use that you're saying no, I don't know what it is. And I'm not I know it's a mood problem, because the symptom is a mood symptom. But I'm not going to commit myself to say whether it's either depressive or bipolar. So it's a new parking place, so to speak, to put your client before you figure out what's going on in a way that's going to be less stigmatized. And that's great. And if it's a couple of corrections to problems in the criteria, that's one of the ones is Autism Spectrum Disorder. So Autism Spectrum, so if you were called in, when we went from DSM-4 to five, that was a new category that was created that used to be autism, autistic disorder, and Asperger's disorder, there are several different and pdds are different types of autism disorders. For DSM-5, they decided to consider the entire thing a spectrum of conditions. So it's now Autism Spectrum Disorder. And it comes with three levels of severity. So Autism Spectrum Disorder is defined, there are two clusters of symptoms. There's the social interaction, social engagement, awkward social reading, social cue, cues, piece of autism, and then there's this preoccupation with unusual interests or repeating words. So there's two separate dimensions of autism, the autism spectrum, so the criteria set was reformulated. And we had to come up with a new algorithm. Now, the challenge here is Autism Spectrum Disorder is really had a huge amount of interest for the past 10, 15 years because of what appears to be this explosion in cases of Autism Spectrum Disorder. And part of that has been argued that people are recognizing it more, and that's why there's more cases, but part of it is over recognizing anyway, that's the kind of little weird and awkward Oh, they're on the spectrum, that's become a common phrase in the English language. Now, if you watch movies and TV start hearing, Oh, that guy's on the spectrum. So it's become incorporated into language. But it also shows that it's been overused and over diagnosed. So when you.. the diagnostic criteria sets, the prevalence often depends upon how you construct the criteria set. So when you have a criteria set, for example, the test five out of 10, if you were to make the requirement three out of 10, the prevalence would go up a lot. If you were to go up to eight out of 10, you would shrink the prevalence. So those kinds of criteria that give you a number out of a larger number has a big effect on prevalence. So when they reformulated the autism criteria set, they wanted to make sure that the the new criteria set was conservative. So that so the way it works is there are three items for the social impairment piece of it, and four of the interest restricted interests problem, the restricted interest is two out of four, the social one was supposed to be three out of three. But if you look at the criteria itself, it just says, including the following wasn't clear if you had to have all the following or any of the following, or whatever it was intended to be all the following because they were very worried about not inflating the rates of Autism Spectrum Disorder. So the new version now has very clearly all of the following. So that I think is good. I don't know how many people were making that error, but certainly was there to be made. And you opened up to different interpretation. I think those are some of the bigger ones. There's lots of small number of small tinkering around. But I think those are probably the most one of the greatest political interest.
Curt Widhalm 16:47
We received a lot of listener feedback and some specific questions as far as some diagnostics that may not be appearing and specifically, some things like Complex PTSD, Developmental Trauma Disorder, Orthorexia, can you explain to our audience a little bit here, as far as what your process is for inclusion, or further research into maybe an inclusion of these in the future? These are things that are being discussed with the APA, and kind of how the decision is made, as far as what do we include? What we kind of continue to just monitor and see what's out there.
Dr. Michael First 17:21
So that's another a change in process when the DSM-5 was done over, however, eight years, they had all these committees, and they would would look what's out there in the literature, and people would write in suggestions. So there's a whole process during the DSM-5 to make lots of major major changes, those committees don't exist anymore. Instead, there's a steering committee. And what the steering committee does is we entertain proposals for new new disorder. So the Prolonged Grief Disorder, even though it was in the appendix, somebody had to come and propose that it be added to DSM-5. But when you put together the proposal, that is, on the DSM portal, there's a whole complicated... we they give an indication of what kind of empirical information is required you and submit your evidence of validity, reliability will make your cost benefit analysis is the harm versus the advantages is balanced in the right direction. So yeah, there's some hurt hurdles to go through to get one of these things in there. And the website lays out what those hurdles are. So now, the system is more reacting to what people suggest rather than coming up with diagnoses on our own. So he says, a little bit of a change. So that's now the process. All the changes you've just mentioned so far were suggested, and then ultimately approved, but let's cover some of the ones you met. So right now, there's really no unless somebody were to write in and say I want Complex PTSD in there. We're not going to be considered unless somebody actually outside the system proposes it and makes it formal proposals. Now, complex PTSD is interesting, because the ICD 11 I mentioned in the beginning that I worked on the ICD 11. On past Complex PTSD, they both PTSD and complex PTSD, in ICD 11. So they made the decision to include that condition. Now, the DSM, turns out that the DSM version of PTSD if you compare it to the ICD, PTSD and complex PTSD, they're elements in the complex PTSD, much of that has been incorporated to the criteria set for PTSD. So it's kind of a little blurry with what's and what's not emphasized, is it typically when Complex PTSD was first proposed, it was a type of PTSD that happened in response to chronic early traumatic experiences often ongoing. That was the original concept, but it turns out, this is from the ICD 11. If you look at the ICD 11 definition, even though they say that's often the kind of trauma that causes Complex PTSD, that's not required. That defines Complex PTSD, at least in the ICD. It's like PTSD, plus some chronic changes in the person to soon have a chronic sense of disconnection, chronic inability to social impairments, they basically been changed, the trauma is so extensive, it's almost like change them as a person. So you have more typical symptoms of PTSD like re experiencing, and avoiding things plus these more fundamental differences in the person. Now, some of those complex PTSD symptoms are now in the PTSD criteria set. So that's what I meant by saying that we sort of took some of the complex and added it to the regular one. So that so here's an example where there are a number of examples where the ICD 11 and the DSM-5 differ. And that's one of them, you know, DSM-5 decided to have a single PTSD category that was a little bit more broad, where ICD 11 decided that they wanted to have two. Some of the other proposals, some I've heard some other proposals, but a lot of these proposals that have been floating around, haven't really reached the stage of enough empirical research, really, to be able to be seriously considered for the DSM, they're potentially good ideas, but none of them have been offered as actual proposals, with proposed evidence to be able to be evaluated, but any of those somebody, and if you're any people listening, want to make such a proposal, you go to the way which you could do that. There's a website, which is easy, www.DSM5.org, if you go to that website, that's the DSM website. On the front page, you'll see there's a it tells you how you can make a proposal and what you need to do to fill out the application.
Katie Vernoy 21:44
It seems like what you're describing is a process to really allow a feedback loop to the steering committee. And you also described the the DSM as being because it's electronic, being a little bit more dynamic in being able to pick these things up.You know, what is the likelihood that one of these diagnoses assuming they've got the empirical research attached with my ended up in the next DSM like like is that?
Dr. Michael First 22:10
Well, to say that there is no next DSM for the time being, it could go in if somebody were to write a proposal today, for Complex PTSD and arguing that the current PTSD isn't covering a very important group of patients that there's a these are the kinds of things you would kind of argument you could make for something like that would include things like the fact that I that diagnosis does exist is hurting people because people are not recognizing it. More so the reason it's hurting them, the treatment for complex PTSD would be different than regular PTSD. That's another part of the compelling case. Another part of the argument is that you need to show that it's somehow distinct from regular PTSD and distinct from other conditions, like adjustment disorder, or, or, you know, this new Prolonged Grief Disorder. So those are the kinds of things you would need to do to make a convincing case, and then you would submit it. And if it goes through the whole process, and was approved, it would now go into the DSM. The hardcopy version, of course, you know, it's not if you buy it, it's not in your version you bought, but the electronic version, it will go into there. So we're in a funny transition now where you have the hardcopy version and the electronic version living side by side. And therefore, if you buy the hardcopy version, you're not, you know, it's it's easy to see the ongoing changes, but APA considers what's approved and in the electronic version to be the official DSM. And the hardcopy, like, the one that's going on sale now is a snapshot of where the electronic version looks like, you know, it looks like now. So everything that's in electronic version is now in hardcopy version. But as things happen, if somebody were to get complex PTSD in there, and it gets in there before the next hardcopy version comes out, then you'll have the situation where it's only on the electronic version, and not in the hardcopy version, but it's it's on the electronic version, you could use it, you know, it doesn't have to be in the hardcopy version to be legitimate diagnosis to make when one of your clients
Katie Vernoy 24:03
That's decided then, I'm not buying a new copy, then I'm just gonna get the electronic version.
Curt Widhalm 24:11
So when you're looking at the research that's submitted, what kind of thresholds are you looking at here? It sounds like part of this is not only the criteria that's maybe showing up in people's offices, but also some of the ways that things are being treated as some of the factors that you look at in how things are included, how things are rolled out, you're kind of kept under some of the existing diagnostics that are there, but what are you really looking for in the research that people are proposing?
Dr. Michael First 24:43
Well, this does not that no one thing I mean, I personally, I'm a clinical utility persons so to me, the most compelling thing is making a case that is going to help people and not hurt them. I mean that person, but that's not sufficient. I mean, you can make a proposal that that's the case but if because there's two things. One is this, say this is a good category to put in there. And then it's how to define it. That's a big problem and lots of concepts are out there. But what would be the criteria set, for example, for Complex PTSD that actually is a distinct group, and wouldn't by accident, include people who don't have complex PTSD? So it's a technical thing is the case for complex PTSD is, like, let's look at what happened with Prolonged Grief Disorder. There's a perfect, so that's already happened. How did that get in there? Well, patients were out there that people were noticing that didn't fit in any of the DSM categories. And they clearly were suffering. So they had some kind of mental disorder. They didn't have as I people say, Oh, well, they have Major Depression. That's not Major Depression, you can have Major Depression, and Prolonged Grief Disorder. But they're not the same at all. Hardly any overlap. So there's a big home system that allows people to come into your office and not have any place for them. So that's the first piece of it, then another compelling thing about comp, Prolonged Grief Disorder is is that psychotherapy that has specifically been developed, it's a variation when a CBT for treating Prolonged Grief Disorder that's been successful. So that's another compelling reason not only are you calling it something, but you have something to offer your clients by saying, Well, this is the recommended treatment. So that's the kind of argument you know, the DSM, it's very the spin, especially since DSM-4 detector, in fact it was a paper that came out before DSM-4 came out called holding the line on diagnostic proliferation, it was very easy, used to be very easy, it sounds like a good idea, we go into the DSM, a couple of problems is that once a category gets into the DSM, it's very, very, very hard to get it out. There's been very few diagnoses which have been deleted, because always some constituency says you will ruin my practice if you get rid of this diagnosis. So that's why knowing that it's easy to get in easier to get in than to get pulled out, you really want to make sure that things that are in the DSM won't need to be pulled out because you've too hastily added. I think there's been kind of a much more conservative view about putting categories in the DSM nowadays than there were back in 20, 30 years ago.
Katie Vernoy 27:13
We also got some some questions and we've had some conversations actually recently about diagnostic criteria that potentially needs to be adapted to fit a more diverse population or an understanding of the diversity in our population. I'm just curious, how culture, other demographic differences, all that all the things, how those things have been addressed in the the text revision, but also kind of the the concept around how you're making sure that the criteria, the descriptions all of the pieces really align with a very diverse population that we that we live in?
Dr. Michael First 27:50
That's a great question. In fact, there's been major efforts, since DSM-4, there was a special committee starting with DSM-4 for culture, culture related issues, how disorders present differently in different cultures. Now, the criteria sets are hypothetically supposed to be vanilla, that apply across all cultures, the way you deal with cultural variations in the text is one section called Culture Related Features. If you look at the content of that text, it's very specific than in this population and may look like this. So it's trying to show how that variability is taken into account. But it's an opportunity to let me tell you about a very important thing that we did with the TR that was basically, it's very interesting was they taking your during the development, During the development of TR, George Floyd happen, and our entire consciousness about systemic racism became sort of raised. Then the question was, are there things in the DSM that are reflective of this kind of systemic racism? So we actually created a committee that went through the entire DSM, looking for, um, not necessarily races as the most extreme case, but things that were not quite nuanced enough, like very often, you know, like, the big one of the big problems, of course, it's like what is race anyway? But that is because you're, you're an African American, are you really different than other people? If you are different, like very often in the DSM, the prevalence section will say this, if we break it down by ethnic group will say of depression in blacks is this and in Latinos Is this the question is why is it different? Is it because of biological reasons among these groups is out twice as if it is a different life experiences? It's lots of huge amount of data that the the disadvantage social settings for some of these groups, is the reason why they're different, not something essential about being Black or Latino. So that was one of the things when they went through the whole book, they're looking to avoid giving a message that something about the race itself is what's causing it to happen. So the way they dealt with it, is that they have a statement that says it's this in blacks and it's not and an extra sentence that says, this difference is likely due to differential exposure to racism or things like that. So it was a very, very thoughtful way of trying to make it clear and de emphasize it also get rid of stigmatizing statements, that to the whole, the whole book went through that thing, and that was really triggered by the awareness that was that was not originally part of the original plan of the TR it was the fact that that happened during the process. A new committee was been doing the process. I'm glad that we had enough time was early enough in the process, that we're able to get it in the DSM-5, I was a little dubious. But we they worked really, really hard that committee to be able to go through the all areas of the text revision to make sure it it worked for across culture, and also not not taking the certain minorities, stigmatized,
Katie Vernoy 30:54
Were any of the diagnoses assessed in that way and determining whether those diagnoses were appropriate across all the different demographic considerations. So one that comes to mind specifically, we recently had a discussion on Trans mental health and Gender Dysphoria is one that that kind of is a requirement to be able to kind of move forward with some of the things for transition. And it was interesting, the conversation was like, Well, I'm not dysphoric it's it's socially, you know, kind of everyone around me is dysphoric about my gender, I'm not and I have to kind of go through this process of saying that I'm dysphoric in order to get the letter that I need for the hormones or whatever, were there, or are there plans to look at kind of the impact of diagnoses or how diagnoses are put together and the impact on folks that are in in typically marginalized populations?
Dr. Michael First 31:44
Well, culturally, I think Trans is a special case, I could get to that whole issue of should trans even be in the DSM. I mean, lots of people in the Trans community don't consider it a mental disorder. So let's get general, we do consider that like Conduct Disorder is a good example, about a lot of the items and Conduct Disorder in minority populations living in high crime area, it's normal, it's like adaptive to do some of the items in the Conduct Disorder criteria sets. And we don't want to give people who are trying to adapt to their typical environment a diagnosis simply because in a different population, it advantage suburban population, it would be evidence of pathology, so you get into text for Conduct Disorder has things in there and the criteria sets get adjusted to drop items that might be overly influenced by culture and not apply to other cultures. And now Trans is a different story. So...
Katie Vernoy 32:38
Okay
Dr. Michael First 32:38
Let me get into that. So the name is also changed DSM-5, it's now called Gender Dysphoria. It used to be Gender Identity Disorder, that's what it was, is up to DSM-5, so they actually changed it from Gender Identity Disorder to Gender Dysphoria to make it less stigmatizing it was felt that saying, there was something wrong with your identity, there's a disorder and your identity was much more stigmatizing than saying that you're upset or it's creating a dysphoria. The fact that the term used in the ICD for this condition is Gender Incongruence, which is very well descriptive term, it's the sense that your assigned gender and your experience gender are incongruent. So the recent the problem, is it. So the individual they say, Well, I'm not dysphoric. I agree, you could say that they shouldn't get any mental disorder. But there's a big problem. How do you get qualified for treatment? Unfortunately, we live in a country, there's lots of things that are very harmful, like, you know, marital strife, child abuse, you can't get paid if you put a code for marital relationship problem on your billing form and submit it, nobody's gonna cover it because the insurance companies and the government have made a decision, unwise in my perspective, that's not my call, to not inlcude, not cover things that are not really ensuring the way they look at us insurance is for medical conditions. That's the basic concept, we're not going to, for example, if you want to get plastic surgery to make yourself look better, and make you feel better, their government says we're not going to cover that because that's sort of a cosmetic thing, even though it makes you feel better. You're not treating a disorder, to have a nose job, for example. There's a whole bunch of things that the government doesn't want to cover, unfortunately, basically, in the ICD, everything is outside of the disorder section, you won't get covered for. Now Gender Dysphoria is in the mental disorder of section, actually, therefore, you could qualify for treatment. If they were to remove it from the DSM entirely, then you would never be able to, insurance companies would not, not to say the insurance companies are happy about covering it, but they would really have a weapon to say well, if it's on the DSM, we have no obligation to cover so what what happened in the ICD 11 which I saw just came out they had the same problem, but they had a different solution. The ICD 11 is all of medicine not just mental disorders. So they had the option of moving Gender Incongruence out of the mental disorder section and moving it somewhere else so that it could still get paid for. And where did they move it, they created a new chapter called Conditions of Sexual Health or something like that. And therefore they were able to put it there. And now it's a condition that could get paid for. The United States, which is still using ICD 11. United States still using ICD 10. So there's no place in ICD 10 to move it. So that's why we're kind of frozen in the situation of it continuing to be in the DSM in that spot, for very utilitarian reasons. I mean, I'll give you another example, somebody who actually heard this case, person had sexual reassignment surgery, and broke took it off as a tax deduction under the health thing. They were challenged by the IRS, they said, Oh, no sex reassignment surgery is a cosmetic procedure, you can't take a deduction for that's their attitude.
Katie Vernoy 35:59
Wow
Dr. Michael First 36:01
It's very tricky, because again, they don't want to cover things. So it's a balance, yes, it's stigmatizing. But on balance, is it better to deal with the stigma, by virtue of the placement in the DSM, or not have the services covered anymore, we're kind of stuck, there's some talk about moving maybe to a different spot in the DSM to try to help with that. But the code, still, the code, and the code is still mental disorder code. So until the ICD code actually changes, it's going to, it's gonna be a mental disorder, we don't have any control over that. That's the government.
Katie Vernoy 36:35
Sounds really complex.
Curt Widhalm 36:37
So if I can kind of synthesize down some of the important points that I'm hearing here is, in this process, you've taken some of the criticisms from the field of the DSM and made it more inclusive. As far as feedback opportunities for professionals. It's not, you know, committees hidden away in dark rooms, you know, twirling their mustaches, or running their fingers and just, you know, being the arbiters of mental health diagnostics. But one of the major things that I want to emphasize that you've brought up here a couple of times, is that there's a lot of parts of the DSM that are not just the diagnostic lists, that people should read from time to time. And I think that outside of maybe some of the psychopathology classes that grad students have to go through, we sometimes forget that and that a lot of the information that we do break up in our conversations that the text parts, this is the major emphasis of the text revision here is go and read these parts. And it probably answers a lot of the questions and criticisms that we have from the field. And now, more so than ever, it's had an opportunity for a lot more people to at least make suggestions and that feedback has been looked at.
Dr. Michael First 37:51
I can't agree with you more they criteria pretty bare bones. So yeah, on their own, they lots of could discuss argue about what what generally means that's what the text is there for. The text allows you to explain what they are, how do you assess it? As I said, the text is like 99% of the words in the DSM and the criteria, maybe 1% or less. So the text is extremely important. That's why we did the text revision. The difference to the from the last one is we did just leave it to the text, we also have the criteria. But you're absolutely right. Many of these things we dealt with, like this whole thing about systemic racism, if you look at the criteria set, there's nothing in the criteria in the TR, that would indicate that we did anything having to do with our sense sensitivity to race. That's all in the text.
Katie Vernoy 38:35
So to that point, I wanted to check in on a couple of things, because it seems like there's an opportunity for anyone anywhere who's able to do some research make the case they can submit to the committee. But I'm curious about who's at the table who's who's on the steering committee? And are you including folks that is there a diverse population of folks, there are other people with lived experience that are giving feedback, like how are you making sure that there's enough folks at the table to make sure that you continue this process of assessing how you're not managing just not even just culture, but also the lived experience of being autistic or, or other areas of neurodiversity? That there are folks who have psychotic symptoms that are weighing in on some of these things? And what the presentations, those things? I mean, it just it seems like there's, there's such a huge opportunity to have a lot of perspectives. How are you navigating that internally with a steering committee?
Dr. Michael First 39:33
Well, the steering committee is very small, then it goes to a committee are experts, there are women on the steering committee, and there are people who are African American, but it's still Well, obviously, just because there's one African American and a couple of women, it doesn't mean all perspectives are covered. We realize you're not simply a bunch of white guys making the decisions here. Got it tomorrow to the to where but you're making it where do we get those other perspectives? Well, the way we try to deal with that is before when something gets like, lets this go to Prolonged Grief Disorder is a good example. That category was controversial because there are a number of people who felt that you're calling people who are having normal grief, you're calling them having a disorder. And there's a lot of pushback against that category. So what we did is when before somebody gets into the final DSM and approved, it gets posted on the DSM-5 website for 45 days, it's open for comment and we get lots of comments. And that's really the opportunity for people with lived experience to say, you know, you, you clearly didn't take into account this aspect that I live with this, if you didn't get it to committee would read all of that. If they make a good case, then they could change it. Absolutely. So that's the way I mean, being on this tiny group of people who make the decisions. Unfortunately, the limit to how diverse we can make this, there's not that many people, but there are many layers. I mean, even within the American Psychiatric Association, it's got to be approved by this thing called the APA Assembly, which is sort of like Congress, so to speak, with lots of diversity built into that. And then so the so many different levels of approval, that's where some of the diversity comes in. It could it could be make it more, maybe, but that's what we're able to do.
Katie Vernoy 41:15
Well it seems like there's also an opportunity to reach out to diagnostic communities when when a new diagnosis is being presented to make sure that you're getting some of that feedback, it seems like there's there's mechanisms in place, my hope is that there's also efforts to connect with folks with lived experience or those elements so that people can really be ready to take on that 45 day period.
Dr. Michael First 41:37
Right? That's actually quite how do we, We do our best to publicize it. Yeah, but you're right, it'd be great. In fact, we've done that before, I think that this particular case, with Prolonged Grief, I think there are organizations, you know, patient groups, we could go to them and say, you know, like, we made a change in the psychotic section, or clearly, individuals have lots of experience. NAMI and, those kinds of groups. So there have not been any changes, you know, recently that would affect that. But that would be obviously something we would want to do is to go perfect sure that they're aware that the change is there and give them an opportunity to give their feedback.
Curt Widhalm 42:14
Where can people find out more about you and your work?
Dr. Michael First 42:17
I have a website at Columbia, at Columbia, every faculty member gets a website, I happen to have a Wikipedia page. So you could look at that. My email, I don't keep my email addresses secret. That's one thing. I mean, it was very interested in me working with this, if I have to contact an expert to get their email address could be incredibly difficult. You take them in and you type an email. It's nowhere you have to. I don't know why people are so afraid to have their email address public. But I mine has been public. It's been public the entire time I've been in the field. And I'm happy for people to let me know what they think.
Curt Widhalm 42:54
And we'll drop Dr. First's email in our show notes. You can check that out over at mtsgpodcast.com. And we'll include links to a couple of other episodes where we've had some relevant guests in the past talking about things like Prolonged Grief Disorder and some of the other things that we've done and follow us on our social media. Until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy, and Dr. Michael First.
Katie Vernoy 43:21
Thanks again to our sponsor SuperBill.
Curt Widhalm 43:23
If your practice doesn't accept insurance super bill can help your clients get reimbursed. SuperBill is free for therapists and your clients can use the code SuperBill22. That's Super Bill two two to get a free month of SuperBill. Also you can earn $100 For every therapist you refer to super bill. After your clients complete the one time HIPAA compliant onboarding process, you can just send their super bills to claims@the superbill.com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement by helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%.
Katie Vernoy 44:06
The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Announcer 44:18
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
How Therapists Promote Diet Culture: An interview with Rachel Coleman Curt and Katie speak with Rachel Coleman, LMFT, CEDS about what therapists should consider in working with clients who have eating disorders, the impact of society on body image, and how clinicians can increase their competency in an area many feel they are lacking. Why do so many clinicians feel under trained in treating eating disorders? How do societal views impact our client’s body image and what is the impact of diet culture? Does a lack of graduate education in eating disorders ethically impact our ability to treat eat disorders in a non-specialized practice? What’s missing from our understanding of eating disorders? All of this and more in the episode. Interview with Rachel Coleman, LMFT, CEDS Rachel Coleman, LMFT, CEDS is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified Eating Disorder Specialist. Rachel received her Masters in Clinical Psychology from Pepperdine University, and shortly after began working at an Eating Disorder treatment center in Long Beach, CA. After five years of working as a Recovery Coach, Primary Therapist, and Program Director in treatment, Rachel shifted her work into private practice where she aids her clients in embodying daily the principals of eating disorder recovery. Rachel is also a certified Dialectical Behavior Therapist and has completed extensive training in the Intuitive Eating dietetic approach. She is a former board member of the International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals, through which she is certified as a Certified Eating Disorder Specialist. Currently, Rachel practices out of her private practice in Orange County, CA.
In this podcast episode we talk about working with clients who have eating disorders. In honor of Eating Disorder Awareness week, we spoke with Rachel Coleman about the nuances in treating eating disorders and how clinicians can most effectively treat these clients within private practices.
“We live in a society obsessed with diets and bodies. And so I think it's very easy for subconscious beliefs about food and bodies to infiltrate sessions, because it's subconsciously in us and so it can come out in our language.” – Rachel Coleman
What do clinicians do when therapeutic interventions might trigger eating disorder behavior? * Many interventions call for physical activity that might trigger eating disorder behavior or feelings in clients. * If a client wants to participate in a physical activity intervention, consider their motivation. * Ensure that a client has multiple tools in their anxiety toolbox. * Be mindful if the modalities and treatment recommendations are based in fat phobia or weight stigma.
How can clinicians assess their clients for an eating disorder? * Eating disorders can present meeting full DSM-V criteria or, in many cases, seem at the “subclinical” or mildly clinical level. * Evaluate how your client feels about societal messaging and the impact it might have on them. * In assessing clients, look to determine the impact of behaviors and patterns on daily functioning. If client’s are sacrificing other values to focus on weight or body, it should be discussed.
How can clinicians increase their education in treating eating disorders? * Clinicians need to do their own work surrounding their bodies and internalized messaging. * Therapists should focus on learning about the complexities of eating disorders and the social justice movements that surround weight stigma and fat phobia. * Familiarize yourself with the ideas of body trust, body neutrality, and health at every size. * Many treatment centers offer free webinars to educate clinicians in eating disorder treatment.
“Let's face it, all of our clients have a body. And all clients are therefore going to have to figure out a relationship with their body regardless of eating disorder
diagnosis or not.” – Rachel Coleman
What are the ethical and legal considerations in treating eating disorders in a non-specialized private practice? * Always get consultation. * Some clients might present with “subclinical” or mildly clinical levels of an eating disorder. * There is a difference between asking questions and treating the answers. * Clinicians should encourage clients to see a medical doctor when necessary. * Working with dieticians and medical doctors to create a holistic team, best serves the client. * Clinicians should be aware when to refer to a higher level of care. * Therapists should limit self-disclosures
How does Diet Culture impact our clients? * Diet culture is a mindset and system of theories we all exist in, that credits a person’s shape and size as the primary indicators of health and moral superiority. * When bodies don’t meet these “standards” of beauty as societally defined, they are often oppressed. * Messaging about dieting and our bodies is inescapable in our society, so it’s easy for subconscious beliefs about food and bodies to infiltrate sessions. * Therapists’ self-disclosures should be limited and focus on affirming client’s experience.
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: SuperBill Interested in making it easier for your clients to use their out-of-network-benefits for therapy? SuperBill is a service that can help your clients get reimbursed without having to jump through hoops. Getting started is simple - clients complete a quick, HIPAA-compliant sign-up process, and you send their superbills directly to us so that we can file claims with their insurance companies. No more spending hours on the phone wrangling with insurance companies for reimbursement. Superbill eliminates that hassle, and clients just pay a low monthly fee for the service.
If your practice doesn’t accept insurance, SuperBill can help your clients get reimbursed. SuperBill is free for therapists, and your clients can use the code SUPERBILL22 to get a free month of SuperBill. Also, you can earn $100 for every therapist you refer to SuperBill. After your clients complete the one-time, HIPAA-compliant onboarding process, you can just send their superbills to claims@thesuperbill.com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement. By helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies, SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%. The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Rachel Coleman Private Practice
Rachel Coleman MFT Instagram
Rachel Coleman’s Podcast: Mom Genes the Podcast
National Eating Disorder Association
International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Navigating the Food and Eating Minefield
An Incomplete List of Everything Wrong with Therapist Education
How to Stay in Your Lane to Promote Diversity and Inclusion
Health At Every Size
Who’s in the Room? Siri, Alexa, and Confidentiality
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by SuperBill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
Interested in making it easier for your clients to use their out of network benefits for therapy. Super bill is a service that can help your clients get reimbursed without having to jump through hoops. Getting Started as simple. Clients complete a quick HIPAA compliant signup process and you send their super bills directly to us so that we can file claims with their insurance companies. No more spending hours on the phone wrangling with insurance companies for reimbursement. Super bill eliminates that hassle and clients just pay a low monthly fee for the service.
Curt Widhalm 00:34
Stay tuned for details on SuperBill's therapist referral program and a special discount code for your clients to get a free month of service.
Announcer 00:42
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:57
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about the things that we do in our office. Sometimes the work that we do with our clients and always exploring the ways that we can do better for our profession and helping with clients. And this week is Eating Disorder Awareness Week. And it's been a while since we have talked about eating disorders here on the podcast, and wanting to explore a little bit about some of the ways that we can potentially know where our limits are in working with these populations. We do have a couple of earlier episodes that we'll link to in our show notes. But today we are joined by Rachel Coleman LMFT, CEDS, I went to grad school with Rachel so somebody that I have known for quite a while but bring it on the experts to talk about things that we don't have expertise on ourselves. So thank you very much for joining us, Rachel.
Rachel Coleman 02:03
Thank you for having me. This is a fun 1520 year reunion here. I don't know how long is it? Think it's getting up there?
Katie Vernoy 02:12
Yeah. Oh, wow. So excited to have you here. And for this conversation. The first question that we ask everyone is who are you? And what are you putting out into the world? Sure.
Rachel Coleman 02:23
Like Curt said, my name is Rachel Coleman. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and that CEDS is a Certified Eating Disorder Specialist. I have a private practice down here in Orange County, California. I treat eating disorders and all the underlying issues that present along with eating disorders. What am I putting out there in the world? I mean, I suppose I've dabbled in social media. But really, my passion is just in one on one, individual therapy, I really believe in that secret therapy space where clients can identify and break their personal and family legacies around bodies and food and diets. I really believe that helping that what we would call in our line of work the identified patient heal really has a ripple effect. It helps the older generations do their own deconstruction and healing. And then it also I'm hoping changes the future of the next generation. So I really do believe in that that beautiful therapy relationship and the ripple effect that occurs when a client is able to do that awesome work.
Curt Widhalm 03:32
And one of the first questions that we usually ask is for a learning place, this is not to necessarily shame anybody but the experience that you have. And I've maybe even in grad school, I think you were working in eating disorders. If I remember our practicum classes correctly, that you put around for a while, what do you see that therapists get wrong in working with eating disorders?
Rachel Coleman 03:59
I mean, I think that therapists and everyone live in a very diety culture. We live in a society obsessed with diets and bodies. And so I think it's very easy for subconscious beliefs about food and bodies to infiltrate sessions, because it's subconsciously in us and so it can come out in our language. And diet culture is a term that's thrown around a lot. So I can give your listeners a little bit of a definition. My definition of it is, it's a mindset and it's also a system of theories that we live in, that really credits a person's shape and size as the primary indicators of health and also a moral superiority. So basically, with a diet culture, thiness is valued above other body types. Foods are usually described with moral terms like good or bad, healthy or unhealthy. And unfortunately, bodies that don't meet this projected ideal of beauty they have often been oppressed. So when we are just growing up and still living in a culture that holds this belief system, it can easily be something that we don't even realize that we're drinking the Kool Aid of, and it can come out in our conversations or in our perspectives. So often I hear unfortunately, clients share with me things that therapists have said that were really kind of harmful or hurtful, even if it feels like it's nothing big. So for example, I've heard people share that therapists have discussed working out or going to the gym and sessions, or like I said, therapists are on social media these days. So sometimes they will post their workouts or their runs. Even if a client is talking about exercise or going to the gym, even a little like typical quip in our society of like, Oh, I'm so terrible about going to the gym, brings in that moral superiority in a very subconscious way. Or even kind of walking across the room to like, open the door, get a book being like, well, at least I got my steps. And, and I think anything that kind of once again, perpetuates this belief system of working out is good or not working out is bad, or anything like that automatically becomes a place where maybe a client doesn't feel safe, because that's the exact work that they're trying to do. This also comes out with food, you know, if therapists are talking about their chronic dieting, or saying phrases like, oh, I struggle with my weight, I get it. Or feeling like foods, if they don't believe that foods are neutral, and they are coming out in sessions with conversations about oh, trying to eat healthier, or foods are good or bad. Basically, sharing personal experiences about fad diets, or even lifestyle changes. And using air quotes. Anything that kind of just continues to perpetuate these beliefs about food and bodies can really create a space where a client doesn't necessarily feel safe to interrupt any patterns or behaviors that they have been suffering from. So overall therapists not having done the work themselves, to deconstruct their beliefs can come out in those conversations.
Katie Vernoy 07:23
What you're saying is, makes a lot of sense. And I'm finding the bias that I have from society coming up. And so I want to if if it's okay with you, I want to play with this a little bit, because there's a question that I've had for a while. And it's hard to know how to manage it. I was in grad school longer ago than the two of you were. And a lot of the especially around depression, a lot of the treatments were activity, making sure that you're, you know, drinking enough water or eating appropriately, you know, kind of having enough food, but also having healthy foods. I mean, and I have my air quotes going to, I think it's, it's hard for me to know what is promoting health, being active is considered healthy. That was my understanding. I think eating foods that are nutritious and nourishing, I think is considered healthy. And so I can, I'm understanding that element of let's not make this about moral judgments if we do things that are in alignment with what society calls healthy or good, but I'm, I'm struggling to identify how we support folks without that playing in and what what is okay to talk about, like, that's, that's hard for me to find that line.
Rachel Coleman 08:42
Mm hmm. I agree. And I, I do DBT. And in DBT, there's a lot of similar types of modalities that we recommend. So I understand that. Absolutely. There is a fine line and some of those things are very, very helpful for combating depression. So yeah, yes, I think the the, the fine line that I always am navigating in conversations with clients when we're trying to figure out self care, because that's kind of what you're talking about. Sure, is the motivation behind it. So I think often, if the motivation behind it is, well, I'm gonna go do those things because I am trying to change my body, or because I'm trying to pursue the weight loss, or because I, you know, one's gonna hear quotes feel fat, then what you're looking at is how do you deconstruct the motivating factor behind the behavior, rather than okay? There's nothing wrong with going for a walk or a jog or going to the gym, especially if the motivating factor is it's that endorphin release that helps ease the anxiety and there's nothing necessarily about the body that's coming into play. Or once again, if that is the only coping skill in the box for anxiety management, well, how do we brought in the skills within the box. Maybe here and there, there's an exercise element to anxiety management, then there's also 10 other things, so that it can be this just more well rounded whole person thing. And I think this is where if a therapist has done their own work, and then able to have some of these really deeper conversations with clients, they're able to realize whether or not what they're upholding in their modalities or in the recommendations, is based in any internalized fat phobia, in any weight stigma, and kind of is, what's the ethical fine line that we're helping people walk? Does that answer the question a little bit?
Katie Vernoy 10:38
It does. I have some more questions. But let's dig deeper in, I see Curt ready to jump in here,
Curt Widhalm 10:43
You mentioned a couple of times about therapists doing their own work. And in this regard, and for many of us, the education that we received on eating disorders in graduate school was minimal, if anything, what some suggestions as far as doing your own work on this, that our audience might be able to walk away with?
Rachel Coleman 11:04
Sure, I mean, obviously, doing your own personal work on what are your beliefs about food bodies and weights, and doing that either in your own personal reading or journaling or therapy? And as far as you're right, there is very little education. I think we got a one hour lecture. That's all I remember personally. So it's it's definitely insufficient. And I think that absolutely doing more webinars, podcasts, taking any courses you can anything about the complexities of eating disorders, and also anything that focuses on the social justice movements surrounding weight stigma, that teaches cultural awareness and sensitivity towards viewing bodies and sizes, encourages this concept of Body Trust and body neutrality. Those are kind of modalities that we try to work from, how do you trust your body? And how do you honor your body, anything that's aligned with Health at Every Size, which I know you guys have spoken on in the past, most even sought treatment centers regularly offer free webinars, virtually, there's local IADEP, that chapters you can get certifications in intuitive eating. So you can do a lot of extra work on your own. I also recommend, obviously, if you're interested in this field to start working at and even sort of treatment center work at the highest level of care that you can try to get in with because when you are in the trenches, in these inpatient residential settings, you're going to get just an immersion of so much education. And that's kind of where I started my work.
Katie Vernoy 12:41
It seems like there's a lot more knowledge that a therapist would need to really be able to effectively treat an eating disorder. And I also know that there are a lot of folks that have disordered eating are fully immersed in diet culture, and have some of the kind of subclinical or mildly clinical levels of this that I think all therapists need to know. And it to me, I've had some clients who came in for something completely else, and then we're on weird diets. And, and, and also hated their bodies and had really negative self talk really harsh, critical negative self talk. And so I've sought consultation and done other things to try to support that, and referred where appropriate, but I think the the pieces that were critical for me to know at first, were kind of this assessment of figuring out, is this someone that's maybe drinking too much of the diet culture Kool Aid? Or is this someone that has an eating disorder and needs that more specific eating disorder treatment, you have some suggestions for clinicians, who are maybe needing to assess their caseload because you know, when we're recording this, it's the new year, you know, there's a lot of people on diets and fats, and this and that. And so I think there's, there's a need to really understand and assess appropriately to as a start,
Rachel Coleman 14:06
I think you bring up a great point, it sounds like you're doing awesome, work yourself, of just continuing to hold that space, because that's let's face it, all of our clients have a body. And all clients are therefore going to have to figure out a relationship with their body regardless of use for diagnosis or not. So I agree, and that's why I also think that grad schools should absolutely talk to you about this way more, because your every this is something that's going to come up with every single client regardless of their presenting problem. So yes, because all of our clients live in this world, and we live in this world, they're constantly sending the messages to change their body, the impact of that messaging will vary. And so you're right, you're going to have to kind of evaluate where the client is on the impact of this messaging, and then the how much they're applying this diet, culture messaging, when wherever we can just open up this therapeutic space to be a comfortable place for a client to process their connection with their body, their relationships. With the scale, the trust they have with their hunger and fullness cues, with their body size and shape, whatever past or present body insecurities that they have, and how it's impacting their ability to function. Now, ways that they've used food to cope with those feelings, any internalized beliefs they have about their body from past bullying from childhood from parents, you know, what, what was it like at the family dinner table for them growing up was their family dinner table, and just all of the different layers of what how a client feels about food and their body, every client has to eat five, six times a day, you know, they have to learn how to dress their body, how to take care of it, how to get good sleep. So I think having a safe space with that neutral, that neutral energy is a really great space. So anyway, that kind of is touching on that piece. As far as the assessments concerned, I think you're really looking at the impact of any behaviors or patterns on daily functioning. Anytime a client is choosing to focus on weight or body and sacrificing other things that are aligned with their value system, then it starts becoming something where, okay, obviously, this is becoming your priority. And I don't think your priorities are in alignment right now with everything else that is really important to you and makes up your identity. And so we have to kind of make sure that then at that point, whatever these behaviors and patterns are, become some of our primary goals and focuses to treat. And if again, if that feels like it's something that starts feeling it's out of your scope, because the client feels out of control, they're not able to pull back anything, they're not able to easily make those tweaks and go oh, yeah, you're right, wow. So curious, I'm going to try something different when it feels like it is fear base that they're doing these behaviors and patterns, they can't make those changes easily. It's impacting their ability to be in social relationships, go to work, choose other things that are important to them. And then you're probably looking at something that's a little bit more deeply embedded
Curt Widhalm 17:03
In my experience, and I've gone to a lot of these workshops at various conferences and treatment centers over the years and have really noticed just kind of my sensitivity as a clinician to a lot of the things that you're talking about. But it seems like if there's three categories of people, the people who have the bare minimum of eating disorder, education, and then to the gold standard of eating disorder treatments, the CEDS, there's kind of this dangerous place in the middle of thinking that you're further ahead in the work, that I don't know if I'm in that dangerous spot or not. But at least being aware of where that edge is.
Katie Vernoy 17:45
Yeah, you and me both buddy.
Curt Widhalm 17:48
It seems like this is a time that that's really ripe to be making some of those mistakes that you're talking about. And a big part of what we talk about on the podcast here is about being a little bit more transparent with your life. And you brought up social media earlier and some of the ways that clients might have access to therapists life in some of these ways before, do you think that this contributes to maybe some of that fear of treating eating disorders and a lot of the population is that having to look at ourselves in the way that we're putting ourselves out there? It's just easier to pretend that it doesn't exist.
Rachel Coleman 18:25
Maybe Yeah, you're right. There is a dangerous space. And yet, I'm absolutely not someone who's like don't even go there and leave it to the experts like, again, because all clients have a body, everyone is going to have to have some element of conversation about this. I think there are a couple of reasons why many therapists feel apprehensive about treating this and they're not sure what to do and part of it yet is I think that a lot of people secretly know that maybe they don't have peace with their own bodies, or they do have some of that secret fatphobia or they have their own struggle with free behaviors. And they're, they're concerned about their ability to stay neutral not have any transference or countertransference that are impacted their therapeutic relationship. So you're right. I think it's one of those things where it's like, in order to feel like you're navigating this, you do have to have a sense of peace and neutrality in your own personal life. That is really, really important. I also hear a lot therapists say, like, I could never do that, like I just like food too much or I just I just don't get it and it's like, Okay, again, no, I think whatever, whatever that fear is underneath that is probably something that needs to be healed yourself because you are human who also grew up in this space. I think the legal ethical pieces are the most probably concerning with treating eating disorders. I think that is where it's dangerous probably to use your word and then also where people can really shy away because there is that medical liability that can present along with an eating disorder. And there's, it's so embedded in us to be like, check for safety, check for safety. And like, the first course we have in grad school is that law and ethics course which like, I think most people are like, nevermind, we're not going to do this entire grad school program, this is almost like quit right that in there. You know, I think it becomes something where it's very, it's very scary to think, Okay, I am now treating someone who there potentially is a safety concern and medical liability on the line here. So while yes, that space, right there is I think we're client. I mean, I'm sorry, I think that space right there is where therapists tend to completely shy away. And trust me, I consult nonstop with licensing boards and treatment teams, and there's a lot more wiggle room than you think. We I also am almost always with a treatment team. There's almost always a dietician on board and a medical doctor on board. And then most often that we are also referring to those higher level of care. So the impatient and anything to get them the stabilization needed so that we can continue treating outpatient. And then I also think that people under think them, and that is where the dangerous space comes in. Again, people kind of just think, well, you know that behavior is normalized in our society. So I'm not concerned about it. And they forget to ask questions about, you know, heart rates, or sleep or how much water clients are or are not drinking, or the clients are saying that they are eating out. But therapists aren't asking, Well, how much are you eating? And what else are you taking? And they're not asking the little detailed questions that if you start kind of having an awareness of how even shorter is present, then you're able to realize, oh, this might actually be more severe, then my brain kind of caught on initially.
Katie Vernoy 21:42
I know for myself, when I've had clients that have started to have behaviors that were of concern, and I pulled out into a team I was, I was honestly surprised by some of the information that hadn't been shared. Part of it is I'm not a medical doctor. I'm not a dietitian. So I'm not necessarily asking really, really specific questions. And my this is leading to my question. But like some of the medical questions, I don't think to ask I'm not a medical doctor, but it sounds like you're saying maybe we should. And so I guess the question is, how do we ask some of these questions and stay in scope of practice?
Rachel Coleman 22:21
I think asking questions is different than like treating the answer. Okay, you know, okay, so I think I often ask, how does your How does your heart feel when you sit or stand up? Oh, it's funky. Okay, let's go, let's make sure you definitely go to your doctor, I want you to go to the doctor and have that conversation, and then I'm going to have you sign the release, I'm going to consult with the doctor because I think we need to make sure that that's okay. Or if it's a female, ask, when's the last time you've gotten your menstrual cycle? Okay, it's been three, four months. All right, you know, I want you to go to your doctor, an OB GYN and get that checked out. Because that's, it can be a sign of malnutrition. And so I want you to make sure that that is ruled out or ruled in so we know how to proceed. And you know, how many laxes and diuretics are you taking again, this is just intake information for me, I'm not, I'm not just reading it, but I'm knowing what I'm what sitting on my couch. And I'm knowing what I need to recommend to do next.
Katie Vernoy 23:14
And maybe that's the that's the part that's challenging, knowing what to do next. I mean, it's easy just to say like, anything that's wonky, goes to your doctor, and and so that that feels like, that feels very doable.
Rachel Coleman 23:25
And then get that release, get that release, because again, we're I can't read labs, right. So if a client gets gets the labs and is like, I got my lab work here, it is like that. That's way out of my scope. So make sure that information is so because I need to ask the doctor what these numbers mean. And I need to know what the doctor so a huge piece of outpatient care with disorders is a lot of times on the phone consulting with other members of the team.
Curt Widhalm 23:53
And I changed the conversation a little bit here to the client end of things and why you see that people with eating disorders don't necessarily seek out treatment.
Rachel Coleman 24:04
Yeah, I think there's a huge shame cycle. That is, you know, in rotation here, a sense of going I am scared to talk about how out of control I feel about certain behaviors. And then I also feel a little protective of those behaviors, because they probably came into fruition to protect me from something protect me from weight stigma from trauma, they eased my anxiety. And so it feels like you're asking someone to give up their greatest resource and also their greatest source of misery. And there's, I think, a lot of shame that clients identify that they are in this cycle and they are kind of stuck in this space. And it's it's, it's makes them hesitant, I think, to to seek out that treatment because they're going to have to lay it all on the table and kind of figure out what they need to tweak.
Curt Widhalm 24:56
How do we as a profession kind of contribute to some of the those fears?
Rachel Coleman 25:03
That's a great question. I'm sure there's a sense of trying clients feel like we're, we're so hyper focused on the behavior, that we're maybe pushing them to give something up that they're not ready to give up. And so it feels like they have, they're held accountable, which again, is that fine line of like, of course, we want them to feel like there's some sort of safety and accountability in sessions. But we also don't want to give them ultimatums or feel more ashamed. If they did struggle, that behavior in between sessions, so that then they're going to be avoidant of coming in processing what's going on. So then holding that safe space to say, this is really hard. This is a really, really challenging, complicated cycle to break. And I'm going to keep my fears of liabilities and legal and ethical stuff at the door. So I can hold a safe, neutral space in the room for you to kind of process through where you're at and how we can continue to support you.
Katie Vernoy 26:03
To me, it seems like the risk elements are the things that therapists probably could get tripped up on pretty quickly, you know, especially if they've got a long standing client who's showing up with some of these behaviors, they're getting out of control. And I know, probably a number of therapists that are listening, you know, that was a pandemic thing. Clients that had been fine had an eating disorder long, long ago, all of a sudden, it popped back up during the pandemic, and now they've got this long standing relationship, and referring out feels a little bit daunting, and not advised. Right. And so I think it's, for me, I think the thing that would be helpful is talking through some of that risk, like, When is it okay to kind of allow the client to be in their process? And when is it like no, no, this is a danger. Like, I need to take some big steps.
Rachel Coleman 26:52
I mean, I'm not a legal ethical expert here. Call your licensing board. I...
Katie Vernoy 27:00
But, but when would you call your licensing board, I guess is what I'm asking.
Rachel Coleman 27:04
I think what it comes down to a sense of like, is this client medically able to take care of themselves and safe in between sessions, that is 100%, a call to licensing board, I've been calling you right, the licensing board more and more and more since the pandemic started to like more than ever, because aces are more cute than ever. And one of the biggest challenges to treating as far as right now is that the inpatient residential high levels cares have two, three, maybe more month waitlists. So you have someone who needs to be in a hospital and they can't get in for weeks. Well, you're not going to terminate care, obviously. But also, now you're treating a client who's potentially not appropriate for outpatient. We've been I've been having a lot of very candid conversations with clients treatment plan contracts, which is going based on how you're presenting, this is the course and plan of treatment that is recommended. These are the steps I want you to take. This is the timeline we're both agreeing on. And if the treatment plan isn't able to proceed as we're discussing, then it's not going to be a good fit for us to continue to work together. So I have lots of very candid conversations, I have contracts for safety. I have lots of case consultations, I have mandatory requests for clients to be seeing an dietitian how many times a week or a doctor how many times so that there is a sense that there are multiple eyes on the person. So we do a lot of conversations about that, just to kind of try to make sure that clients are getting the containment and the support and they need while also staying safe. And also working with the system that we're kind of living in right now in the pandemic, which is not unfortunately a rapid, imperfect one.
Katie Vernoy 28:51
Well, on the other end of things, if someone's fasting, or someone is restricting or purging or those kinds of things, I mean, those things are not going to change overnight. And I think people get fearful because if someone throws up twice a day, is that a medical risk? If they throw up once a week? Is that a medical risk if they're fasting every other day? Or if they're restricting down to a certain amount? Or? It seems hard to know, like, at what point do I need to ring these bells? At what point do I need to either try to seek inpatient or whatever it feels like there's this nebulous area where some of it is like, intermittent fasting as a diet that's going on right now. Right, you know, restriction and deep restriction has you know, I saw in a, this was many, many years ago, but restricting calories down below a certain point for long periods of time was shown to have health benefits or something like it was like it was it's it's stuff that doesn't make sense. There's also the whole medical model that's giving us information that doesn't align with this anti diet culture. And so I think for me, it's It feels hard to sort out. When is this? I'm holding space and we're talking about it. And when is it hey, I need to get this person to a doctor or say like, No, you have to change this, or else I'm terminating you.
Rachel Coleman 30:14
This is where the board would say, you've got a lot more wiggle room than you think. This is where the board would say like, Well, yeah, I mean, you're not necessarily doing anything illegal by seeing someone who's purging X amount of times. But as quickly, how can we do no harm? How can we support the client to getting better, and are they able to change and contain and shift this harmful behavior in our current therapeutic plan, I think the examples you just listed, absolutely warrant a higher level of care. That is something I would probably easily identify based on how you're presenting based on your frequency of symptoms, I, you definitely need a high level of care. Now let's talk about what the plan could be to get you there. And if it takes a few weeks, I'm here. And if it takes a little while to convince you, then let's talk about Stages of Change. Let's talk about pre contemplation. Let's talk about all the other things that we can talk about and spend time exploring, while still holding a boundary of listen, I think that you need more support than I can offer you in order to get this, these things changed. And these things are scary. And medically, it's not okay for your body. And so I can't just sit here and be like, we're gonna process how you feel about this. For weeks and weeks on end, we have to kind of hold that fine line. You know, it's funny, you say that about like, when should you refer to the doctor? I mean, for me, that's just kind of my standard, like, if you're going to be seeing me outpatient and you have a diagnosable disorder, you will be in a team, I am not going to be the only provider. Makes sense.
Curt Widhalm 31:51
One of the big trends in our fields is the role of lived experience that a lot of clients are seeking out and kind of looking at the the ways that some of the therapist behaviors that you're talking about earlier, can trigger clients, do you have any recommendations for people with lived experience as far as how to walk this line and being able to talk about their own perspectives of having received ED treatments in working with clients who are presenting with ED related behaviors.
Rachel Coleman 32:21
So what whether clients should share they're in recovery,
Curt Widhalm 32:24
Whether a therapist, yeah should be talking about their own experiences in recovery.
Rachel Coleman 32:31
I mean, I do think that a lot of clients do feel better if a therapist is able to identify and reveal that they are recovered themselves, and they've been there. I don't know if details are needed, I think it can be one of those things where it's, you're really what you're really trying to validate is the client's pain. You know, I can see your pain, I have some experience with my own pain, I will never feel yours, though yours is unique, yours is your own. But I know that this is a long process. And I know that things are hard. And I have empathy. And I validate your experience. I don't know if therapists need to go into details about their own stuff. Because the nature of an even shorter is to be highly competitive, and to be comparing a lot and comparing, when you're in an even shorter only makes you feel worse, it never makes you feel better. I think you definitely want to make sure you're not triggering clients eating disorder brains to start doing extra, you know, comparison and calculation. But maybe a general sense of I validate and see your pain. And I also know that recovery is possible. Because a lot of times when a client's struggling, they don't think that there's hope. It doesn't feel like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And so if there's things that the therapist can say that will make clients feel hopeful and know that recovery is possible. And I think those things are really therapeutically benefit official, but probably best to keep personal disclosures out of the therapy room.
Curt Widhalm 33:57
One last question is looking at the way that ED is taught. What would you add to curriculums to help people better be able to be prepared in working with this kind of a client population?
Rachel Coleman 34:13
That's a great question. I think I think what's missing is the complexities of how eating disorders present. I think we get there like little box DSM criteria. But we don't really get the fact that every single eating disorder is as unique as the person. So no eating disorder is the same sitting in a room and being able to ask a lot of these questions that we're kind of talking about, I think it'd be really beneficial for therapists to be educated on the various non stereotypical ways that you disorders present and all the great questions that people can ask. I do talk at grad schools a lot and when I do I bring my intake forms, and I pass out my intake forms for students to look at because one of the things I want to teach them is what questions to ask and what things to look for. And just kind of it basically gives them a better understanding of what you sores even look like on your couch, the various ones, the examples, and all just all the very detailed variety of how these these diagnoses can present so that they're able to recognize it, because otherwise you just get the DSM criteria and the Hollywood movies, which are portraying anorexia in one way. And it's just it's not, it's not sufficient enough.
Curt Widhalm 35:31
Where can people find out more about you and your practice?
Rachel Coleman 35:35
Sure. So my website is www.rachelcolemanceds.com. And that's probably the best bet. Like I said, I suppose I dabbled social media. So you can kind of take some months off, and sometimes I'm like, Oh, I have some thoughts. But my Instagram is at Rachel Coleman MFT. And I have a Facebook page with my name as well.
Curt Widhalm 36:00
And we will include links to that in our show notes. You can find those at MTSGpodcast.com. And you can follow us on our social media come and join our Facebook groups, the modern therapist group and share with us your experiences of eating disorder, education, or lack thereof, and things that you would do to help better our fields when it comes to serving our clients. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Rachel Coleman.
Katie Vernoy 36:31
Thanks again to our sponsor SuperBill.
Curt Widhalm 36:33
If your practice doesn't accept insurance SuperBill can help your clients get reimbursed. SuperBill is free for therapists and your clients can use the code superbill22. That's SuperBill two-two to get a free month of SuperBill. Also, you can earn $100 For every therapist you refer to super bill. After your clients complete the one time HIPAA compliant onboarding process, you can just send their super bills to claims at the super bill comm SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement to help your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%.
Katie Vernoy 37:17
The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Announcer 37:29
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What to Know When Providing Therapy for Elite Athletes Curt and Katie chat about the specific competence required to work with elite athletes. We explore how elite athletes present (including diagnosis) as well as what treatment looks like for elite athletes. We also talk about the training cycles and periodization, developmental stages, and identity formation for competitive athletes. We also look at what healthy training environments include and how athletes can take care of their own well-being.
In this podcast episode we look at what therapists need to know about working with elite athletes For our second continuing education worthy podcast, we wanted to support therapists in understanding what they need to know (or know that they don’t know) about working with elite athletes.
The differences between being a fan and being competent to work with elite athletes * The types of competence needed to support athletes who are at an elite level * Sports psychology and other areas of specialty to support athletes * The stringent criteria to be called a sports psychologist
What diagnoses do athletes present with when they enter therapy? * Not necessarily anxiety, but it can be anxiety related or unrelated to sport * Diagnoses can be related to the sport due to body, substance, or changes in circumstances * Diagnoses can also be related to other elements of their life and transitions
What does treatment look like for elite athletes? * High school and college athletes are most likely the clients we’ll see * The integral nature of their team and who is best to be included in the treatment team * Logistics and scheduling due to games and practices, obtaining required consents * Training schedules, food information is relevant to therapeutic work * The different goals for elite athletes than for other folks who enjoy sports * Looking at in the moment frustrations versus a desire to leave the sport * Sports assessments to identify athletic coping skills * Helping athletes to make decisions for themselves and identify when it’s burnout and when it’s a mismatch
Understanding training cycles and the impact on athlete clients * Specific language that athletes may use * Periodization, micro, meso, and macro cycles in training * The importance of planned growth and rest as well as peaking at the right time * The focus of timing for everything * How injuries or changes in schedule (like with covid) can impact this timing and what that means for athletes
Developmental factors for young athletes * The focus of training for younger children as well as the investment phase for youth * Developing one’s identity as an athlete * What can positively impact and negatively impact the future commitment to sport * Other developmental factors related to being a teen interacting with these developmental elements
What a balanced life looks like for elite athletes * Who athletes spend time with, share their life with * The hobbies that complement the sport * Understanding how maintenance impacts the rest of the schedule
The factors that improve an athlete’s well-being * Myths related to the tangential benefits of being an elite athlete (i.e., I’ll get college paid for) * The importance of having a therapist who isn’t just a “fan” * The differences between team and individual sports * The competency needed related to understanding the sport to understand all of the dynamics * What good social systems around athletes have in common * The understanding of how each person in the athlete’s circle interacts with the goals * The culture created within the team and with the people around the athlete * Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka – a look at how they have been taking care of themselves
The transition out of being an elite athlete * Injury and unplanned retirement * Planning for an intentional retirement * Moving out of the athlete identity into something new
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: SuperBill Interested in making it easier for your clients to use their out-of-network-benefits for therapy? SuperBill is a service that can help your clients get reimbursed without having to jump through hoops. Getting started is simple - clients complete a quick, HIPAA-compliant sign-up process, and you send their superbills directly to us so that we can file claims with their insurance companies. No more spending hours on the phone wrangling with insurance companies for reimbursement. Superbill eliminates that hassle, and clients just pay a low monthly fee for the service.
If your practice doesn’t accept insurance, SuperBill can help your clients get reimbursed. SuperBill is free for therapists, and your clients can use the code SUPERBILL22 to get a free month of SuperBill. Also, you can earn $100 for every therapist you refer to SuperBill. After your clients complete the one-time, HIPAA-compliant onboarding process, you can just send their superbills to claims@thesuperbill.com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement. By helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies, SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%. The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this course here: What to Know When Providing Therapy for Elite Athletes
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
APA Division 47: https://www.apadivisions.org/division-47
Offensive lineman weight maintenance: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/5/5/21246544/offensive-linemen-diet-weight-loss-gain-eating
Some sports psychology assessments: https://premiersportpsychology.com/assessments/
Kaplan, E. (2020, July 6). How NFL offensive linemen escape the 5,000-calorie lunch and transform in retirement. Retrieved on January 30, 2022 from https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29399747/how-nfl-offensive-linemen-escape-5000-calorie-lunch-transform-retirement
For the full references list, please see the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Outside Obsessions
Finding Your Blind Spots (Deliberate Practice Part 1)
Be a Better Therapist (Deliberate Practice Part 2)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists ethics committee, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, lecturer in Counseling Laws and Ethics at California State University Northridge, a former Law & Ethics Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and former CFO of CAMFT. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, with a Master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from California State University, Fullerton and a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Theater from Occidental College in Los Angeles, California. Katie has always loved leadership and began stepping into management positions soon after gaining her license in 2005. Katie’s experience spans many leadership and management roles in the mental health field: program coordinator, director, clinical supervisor, hiring manager, recruiter, and former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. Now in business for herself, Katie provides therapy, consultation, or business strategy to support leaders, visionaries, and helping professionals in pursuing their mission to help others. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by SuperBill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
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Curt Widhalm 00:34
Stay tuned for details on SuperBill's therapist referral program and a special discount code for your clients to get a free month of service.
Announcer 00:42
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:58
Hey, modern therapists, we're so excited to offer the opportunity for one unit of continuing education for this podcast episode. Once you've listened to this episode, to get CE credit, you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com register for your free profile, purchase this course pass the post test and complete the evaluation. Once that's all completed, you'll get a CE certificate in your profile, or you can download it for your records. For a current list of our CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
Katie Vernoy 01:30
Once again, hop over to moderntherapistcommunity.com. For one CE once you've listened well.
Curt Widhalm 01:37
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about the things that we do in our practice the clients that we see and considerations that we need to take into account. And this is another one of our deep dive continuing education eligible episodes. And you can find information about how to get your continuing education in the announcements before and at the end of the show, as well as in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. Today, we are diving into the world of working with clients who are elite athletes.
Katie Vernoy 02:22
Yay.
Curt Widhalm 02:23
Now, this is something where the Olympics are going on right now. And this year's Olympics are a little bit weird. But I think it's important to frame kind of where we're coming from and the qualifications that we have as far as being able to talk about this to the level that we are and this being a very introductory level workshop as far as working with elite athletes. Katie I'm going to let you go first. What is your background and qualifications to be teaching other therapists about working with elite athletes?
Katie Vernoy 02:57
Well, in fact, I don't have qualifications of that I've I've had my own forays into some sports and worked with some athletes. But I would say that I am here in the role of facilitator and interviewer and excited to learn more. How about you, Curt?
Curt Widhalm 03:17
Thank you for asking. So in addition to being a therapist and podcast host, I am actually a USA track and field certified level two coach. And there are three levels of certification within USA Track and Fields. This is kind of the masters level of those three certifications. It is a and my particular area of coaching expertise here comes in endurance events, typically considered the 800 meter race and up through ultra marathon distances. So I have been doing this for several years I have competed regionally competitively. I've placed in a marathon before, it was a boutique one. So but I think that this brings us to kind of our first point is that a lot of us in the world are fans of sport. And a lot of us are going to have a lot of opinions about sports and about things that are going on with athletes. And this is one of those big reminders that you got to have the right competencies to work with specialized populations. And this is one where I think that we have the potential as a lot of people in this profession to let our fandum-ness get in the way of our own assessments of our abilities to accurately work with clients who come from these backgrounds. And that's going to be a really big common theme throughout the episode today is: are you competent to be able to work with this kind of a population? Because at the elite levels, we're not talking recreational people, you know, when I was running and competing myself, I still considered myself a very recreational runner. And I was running most weeks, 60 - 70 miles a week, some weeks, I'd be running up to 90 miles a week, and I tell a lot of my friends this and they go, I can't possibly conceive of what that means. And so these are the kinds of things where these are people whose schedules are filled with being the best physically performing that they can be. They're going to have schedules that are all over the place, they're going to be inconsistently available, they're going to have a lot of commands and demands that might come across as entitled, but the biggest priority of their life is being physically capable of performing. So this is where you have to be on your game, knowing the type of client that you're working with, and what it's going to take to work with this client successfully, in order to actually have good successful therapeutic treatments.
Katie Vernoy 06:20
And when we were talking ahead of time, I think there's the clarification that there are folks where this is their specialty that you know, sports psychologists, folks that have gone through that extra training. And we can link to some of that in the show notes. So if you're wanting to pursue this as a career, that would be the way to go. Again, reiterating this as a entry level course to let you know what you don't know, really, to say, hey, refer out or get more training. I think it makes sense to talk about what are some of the basics of what would make someone competent to work with elite athletes or becoming a competent, quote unquote sports therapist,
Curt Widhalm 06:58
The American Psychological Association division 47, is who outlines what a sports psychologist is. And they go so far as to say you really have to have the competencies to do this, to call yourself as a sports psychologist, you have to be trained in sports psychology. And they go so far as to have an FAQ on their page. As far as, hey, I've got an athletic background, I was super competitive in this. And now I'm a psychologist. Can I call myself a sports psychologist? And the APA's answer is basically, no. So. So what makes a competent sports psychologist is having a knowledge that encompasses and having a training that encompasses knowledge of the psychological skills of athletes, the well-being of athletes, and the systemic issues associated with sports organizations, and in the development and social aspects of sports participation. In other words, this is knowing all of the ins and outs of what it takes to be a participant in the sport, the developmental aspects of being able to approach sport, understanding the systemic pressures around them, and how to navigate them. And I think that that last piece of it is where this is a population where we can have a lot of opinions of how people handle things in normal, everyday life that just does not apply to the systemic issues in a sports world. And I think we'll talk about some people in stories throughout this episode today that kind of illustrate some of these points. And apropos to our last continuing education podcast, we won't be making any diagnostics of any of those people showing up in the media, but talking about what their experiences are, and what their descriptions and some of these media releases that they've had or interviews that they've done for other people.
Katie Vernoy 09:06
So let's start with the treatment part just to kind of get that out of the way. Because it seems like that's the minimal piece that a lot of people will will interact with, but then there's like, what's the real deal? So starting with the kinds of diagnoses that athletes are usually going to present with.
Curt Widhalm 09:27
Sure. So, most of the time, athletes are not going to be coming in with necessarily anxiety related issues. And while they might come in with, you know, having this block towards performance, a lot of times they're going to be referred for things like eating disorders, that especially for a lot of weight or image based sports, things like gymnastics, wrestling, crew as another example where weight is going to have a factor into, especially losing weight is going to have a factor into performance. This is sometimes where athletes can go too far and end up into disordered eating territory. Stress is obviously a very, very common one. While sometimes there is anxiety, it's not necessarily always about performance, it might be anxiety about maintaining a position on the team, or anxiety about managing other aspects of their life. There are also a tremendous number of substance use disorders that athletes end up presenting with, typically, you're gonna see this with alcohol. But by far, the most common diagnosis that you're gonna see with elite athletes is adjustment disorders.
Katie Vernoy 10:47
Explain that a little bit more
Curt Widhalm 10:48
There are a number of different aspects of changing in life that athletes are going to go through and a little bit we're going to talk about this as far as some of the developmental factors. But it helps to think that people don't just one day as adults magically appear as elite athletes. That this is something where many of them have been practicing and finely tuning themselves for years to be able to get to where they are, where they want to be. And along the way, comes bumps and bruises, injuries that prevent them from being able to perform, there comes a time in your life where developmentally you're, you're hoping for just a nice linear growth of your ability to continue to get better and better at something. And when you inevitably don't, there is a mental adjustment that goes along with understanding why you're not performing in the way that you are. There are adjustments of things happening outside of the sport, family issues, friend issues, school issues, at the very highest levels - media issues that end up needing to have an adjustment, or at the very end of people's careers, also adjusting to retirement and changes in identity from things that they have spent their whole life doing to now the absence of that thing completely.
Katie Vernoy 12:20
Makes sense. I think one diagnosis that you didn't include here was PTSD. And I know for myself, I had people that I had people that were no longer elite athletes are not on that, that trajectory. But I'm even just thinking about, you know, huge amounts of women, gymnasts, who were sexually assaulted. I know that there are even kind of a parody of, you know, abusive coaches, those types of things. Is that Is that relevant here the PTSD diagnosis?
Curt Widhalm 12:51
It is, but it's not. And I'll tell you why.
Katie Vernoy 12:55
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 12:57
A lot of our research on working with elite athletes does not consider former athletes or retired athletes as part of their research base. So we'll include our reference lists over in our show notes of some of the stuff that we're talking about here. But the the particular research is focused on people who are currently athletes, or people who are at the end of being in their athletic career potentially looking at transitioning out. And this does not discount what you're saying, as Yeah, that stuff does happen. But what you're talking about, in particular, is more of working with former athletes. So...
Katie Vernoy 13:40
Sure, my mind's working with former athletes, but I'm thinking about like, the whole US Olympic gymnast gymnastics team, you know, like, I would imagine, there would be a lot of PTSD there around sexual assault.
Curt Widhalm 13:51
I think we're going to come back to that point later in the episode because of some of the stuff that we're going to talk about in the middle of the episode.
Katie Vernoy 14:00
All right. All right. I'll leave that there then. Okay, so you have someone come in, they might have one of these diagnoses, the fact that most likely it's adjustment disorder, and there's going to be a lot of stuff we talked about, that you've already previewed for me, which is really, really interesting. may seem like it's surprising that we're looking at just an adjustment disorder. So, okay. And then solo practitioners oftentimes work solo, it seems like there might need to be a treatment team here who is in that treatment team for athletes.
Curt Widhalm 14:31
So think of what the world of somebody whose life revolves around athletics might include, and recognizing that realistically, most of our audience, well, while we would all love the LeBron Jameses to be our clients and the wonderful, you know, pride that you might have in working with them, realistically, the most common people that we're going to have coming from this world into our offices. are high school and college athletes operating at the highest levels of their performance. And while there might be, you know, some consent issues, as far as getting enough signed releases around to everybody, you have to consider the major important people in a athlete's life. And first and foremost is going to be their coach. Because at the end of the day, the coach's decision, as far as who plays, how they play, how often they play is going to be something that really ends up factoring into a lot of the individual decisions that your client is going to make. And it's understanding the coaches culture idea. And realistically, knowing that you're not going to be probably talking with a lot of coaches very often, of what the environment that they set up is. And so you're talking about, you know, women's gymnastics team here and some of the abusive situations that have happened since forever. It does start with the culture that the coach ends up bringing to a certain gym or a certain team type attitude, that is going to set up where your client is approaching their day to day job. Now, as I mentioned earlier, this is people who are very, very busy. So a lot of scheduling might end up taking place through parents, that having to work around schedules, and especially with a lot of athletics that take you know, multiple days out of the week. Baseball is an example where it wouldn't be unrealistic for a client to be having three or four baseball games in a week, scheduling is gonna change a lot. And when your client shows up to the office, it may be irregular, it may be done through communications with the parents. Particularly in those weight based sports - but also, I do see a lot of colleges appropriately, having nutritionists working with teams. So you might be working with nutritionists as well, in helping to understand where your client's food plans are going to go. And even that's going to be very dependent on the sport that they're talking about. We were talking before the show of the major differences in what happens with eating as an offensive lineman on the football team, versus what might be different with an endurance athlete who's running marathons.
Katie Vernoy 17:31
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 17:31
And then, because of the amount of time that athletics takes up, you may also be working with educators as far as what the role of education is taking, and particularly if you're working with athletes who might not be spending as much time in class or falling behind on their grades, and needing to be able to work with educators to keep them eligible as well.
Katie Vernoy 17:58
So these are all people who have a lot of impact on the client. Who are part of their team, and, and thus should be part of the treatment team. The question that comes up for me here is really about identifying where, where the client fits in. And maybe this goes later too, but I just feel like there's they're oftentimes when we're working with some of these folks, they are, especially the ones who are not health professionals, you know, coaches, parents, that kind of stuff. They are not objective, they have very specific motives they have specific outcomes they are looking for, how do you manage a coach or a parent who is pushing for something that may not be in the best interest of the client? And or not what the client wants? I mean, I think there's, there's elements of this that maybe we talk about in the social systems, but I'm just curious on like, how do you develop the relationships with the this broad array of people that have very different perspectives on what might be best for the client?
Curt Widhalm 19:01
And I think inherent in your question is a little bit of the naivete that we take, as a typical mental health professional
Katie Vernoy 19:10
Yes.
Curt Widhalm 19:12
That from a team approach, the end of the day, it's whether or not the team won. That that is, what the the goal of the team is and kind of that social environment is geared around how to get towards winning. And while what you're talking about may apply to kind of more of our garden variety recreational athletes or people who are happy to be on the team sort of things when we're talking about the elite athlete sort of things. This is a world that is built around winning and losing. Your role as a mental health professional in this is understanding the psychological skill of your client to be able to get back into that winning environment. And while you're talking about some more of that client choice into this aspect is, it's being able to really tease out with clients like this. That what is their in-the-moment sort of voice? Or is this a consideration of leaving the sport altogether? Oftentimes, when I've worked with college athletes, or I've read autobiographies or interviews with people, you know, Andre Agassi's book that he wrote back in the 90s, talks about one of his first dates with Steffi Graf, before they got married, and they sat down to dinner. And their first conversation was, I fucking hate tennis. And these are people who continued to play at in elite level for quite a while after that, and have remained a big part of the tennis world. That if you're working with an athlete who's considering what is best for them, it's got to be done through the competence lens of understanding what their role and what their identity is to the sport, and how they can come back to that. And the specialized training that goes into this is going to need to use quite a few different assessments that frankly, most therapists just don't end up getting trained in, unless they go through specialized training, I'm talking about things like you know, the athletic coping skills inventory, the ACSI-28, it's a psychology assessment that measures an athlete's psychological coping skills in seven different areas. There's the disc model that can be used not only with athletes, but also with coaches that looks at dominance, influence, steadiness and compliance. These are the kinds of assessments that should be a regular part of what you have at your disposal to help determine the scope of competence of the scope of practice that you're going to end up doing with an elite athlete. Beyond kind of the naivete of the where does the athlete fit into this? These are the kinds of things that help the athlete come to some of those decisions themselves.
Katie Vernoy 22:17
That makes sense. I think the the thing that I am still trying to sort out and maybe maybe this is more of a clarifying question, does do these assessments, assess for this? But as I mentioned, I've worked with folks who were kind of on that elite path, and fell out. And a lot of the the ways they discussed it, were this was: I was good at it, I enjoyed it, I no longer enjoyed it. It was really my parents pushing me to do this, or my coach pushing me to do this. And I am so relieved that I'm no longer in it. And granted, this could be that they didn't have the right person at the right time saying the right thing. But I feel like there, there are folks that at many different stages fall out and say what was I doing? This wasn't good for me. It was never good for me, why didn't anybody help me? Why did people keep pushing me to try to do this thing? And so how do we does the assessment, sort those questions out to see what the influences are around them?
Curt Widhalm 23:19
And those two are just a couple of the assessments that sports therapists and sports psychologists end up using. That part of being able to take into account some of the factors like burnout that you're talking about that is going to look at people as you're describing who have been so pushed beyond burnout, that they no longer want to be in the sport. You know, I've heard from again my world for it's more endurance, athletics sort of things is heard from division one athletes who run 5k 10k Cross Country type races that say, I never want to run a race again, that... And those are typically in sports, where the competition outside of you know, at that division one level is going to be participating in road races gather are professional, you know, sort of circuits that they can go and compete in, but they're not as popular of professional sports, the livelihoods in those sports are are going to be much smaller than compared to something like basketball or or football or something where there's the potential to make millions of dollars in in a career. It is a question that you can ask and help athletes kind of figure out what their involvement and what their continued desire to participate is. And it's helping them to accept and understand what that means as far as their ongoing participation in it. And I think that part of what I hear from some of the younger athletes who, whose parents do push them into kind of some of these training things is helping to understand training cycles and development, not only physically but also psychologically as well.
Katie Vernoy 25:15
So let's let's move into that then because I think that's really helpful to give us a little bit more context. So what what the therapists need to understand about training then? Let's start there.
Curt Widhalm 25:26
So, training does not have a linear progression to it. And longtime listeners of the show know that I'm a big fan of Scott Miller as far as his work towards development of therapist and therapeutic skills. In turn, Scott Miller's work is largely influenced and started by Anders Ericsson, who was one of the first people to look at development and expertise across a number of different fields. And both of them led to the whole big deliberate practice sort of movement.
Katie Vernoy 26:02
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 26:03
Now with psychological or conversational type skills. Those are things where we all experienced burnout, a lot of us take steps back, and you know, we come back after an appropriate time away, we come back and we start doing therapy better. Just because we are recharged correctly. It's understanding that we physically, in response to physical stressors, like practices and training, also go through very predictable periodization techniques, or have to use periodization techniques, in order to train at our best. You can't just go out and practice at 100% every single day, and expect to see the same kind of linear growth throughout a season. And this takes into account that there are different terminologies for different kinds of things, a workout might be a specific one hour set of activities that somebody does, a series of workouts across a week is called a micro cycle, a seven day period. And this is where, you know, you might hear this from your crossfitter friends or people at the gym, you know, today's an arm day, the next the next day is a back and chest day, the next day, never skip leg day, folks. But you know, it's being able to kind of cycle through all of the different parts of the body in a predictable and structured way to optimize the development of those muscles.
Katie Vernoy 27:34
And that's a micro cycle.
Curt Widhalm 27:35
That is a micro cycle across a week. So you've got your Monday workout, you've got your Tuesday workout.
Katie Vernoy 27:40
Yes,
Curt Widhalm 27:41
Typically, we're going to see about three weeks of growth. So three micro cycles of growth, of increasing strenuous activity from week to week, that then requires a larger rest day in response to it. And so we're looking at a month of four micro cycles. We call this a meso cycle. And so this is where you might see a buildup of, you know, three weeks of increasing workouts and then a week where you're still having your workouts, you're still going through a very intentional shorter microcycle that backs off allows for some recovery allows for more rest, and this is intentionally done. So that way just like us coming back from vacation, this is a little bit of a vacation that's built into a schedule for athletes to kind of rest and recover and build back in.
Katie Vernoy 28:38
Okay, so we've got a microcycle, which is a week. Meso cycles, which are a month and that's, you know, increasing and then dropping off for a rest week. What's a motorcycle?
Curt Widhalm 28:50
A motorcycle? A motorcycle is a two wheeled engine driven machine. I think what you're going for is a macro cycle.
Katie Vernoy 29:03
No, I was going for motorcycle but what is a macrocycle?
Curt Widhalm 29:08
A macro cycle is going to be how different meso cycles fit together. And this can range anything from a year to four years. As far as some training plans go.
Katie Vernoy 29:19
That's pretty macro.
Curt Widhalm 29:21
And this is talking about the people at the very highest levels of of sport. Olympic athletes are going to plan for years of how their training is going to fit together. Lower levels this is planning through a season or it might be planning through academic year for those like cross country and then distance running athletes who would have like a fall season and then a spring season. But oftentimes, athletes physically are going to peak at one to two times per year. That once you reach kind of your your peakness as far as a physical response, you're not going to hold on to that for months and months. Typically, at least in the endurance athlete community, you're gonna hold on to that for about three weeks. And then your body is naturally going to need a much longer sort of recovery time, this is where a lot of marathon training plans are going to sit between 20 and 24 weeks, it's going to be that your peak is on race day. You don't want in other sports, you don't want your athletes peaking, the third game of the season and then just kind of trying to hold on to that all season puts them at greater risk for injury. So understanding these cycles is important. Because the way that workouts are laid out physically, are going to have different responses to different kinds of workouts, and particularly for a population that when they feel that things aren't going well for them physically, where their response is going to be, I need to make up for that workout. I need to work out more in order to catch up. It's having an understanding of this on the therapeutic side of hey, where are you at in your in your cycle? Are you in week 13, you in week 15, because there's a difference between those that we have to understand is going to bring out different emotions. Because a lot of mesocycles, that month long thing are going to plan for overload, an intentional functional overload in that third week of the mezzo cycle. In other words, that's where you're going to be build build build. And it's going to be tiring, and it's going to be frustrating. And it's going to take up more of your time where you're gonna hear some of that burnout language. I don't know if I can do this, again, I don't... that helps the clients to be able to step back and understand there's an emotional reaction depending on where they're at in their cycle.
Katie Vernoy 32:01
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, to me, understanding, having the language and understanding what someone's microcycle is meso cycle is, macro cycle is, and whether they drive a motorcycle. Alright, so understanding the language, understanding what somebody's training cycles look like being able to have some sort of a prediction, or predictive ability, maybe, of how that part of the cycle is going to impact them is pretty important. So if they're at that build, build, build and burning out that makes sense. If they're on the rest week, or at the end of the rest week, maybe not so much. You know, maybe there's there's some different elements that are really important to consider. To me, in the the folks who I've worked with kind of peripherally. It seems like timing of injuries, even kind of the minor injuries that oftentimes get worked through or you only take a few days break, it seems like that could be really hard to navigate within these different cycles.
Curt Widhalm 33:07
Yeah, and timing starts to become everything for some people. I have permission to share this. But I was told years ago by a former Olympic gymnast, that their plans for children revolved around being born in the correct years for the Olympics, that being, especially in women's gymnastics where you know, your career peak is going to typically fall somewhere between the ages of 16 and 24. That the difference between showing up as a 14 year old versus showing up as a 16 year old is a decision that your parents are making when they're making love to create you.
Katie Vernoy 33:55
That's intense.
Curt Widhalm 33:57
And so some of the pressures around this are, you know, your born in the right here, put if COVID happens in your Olympic year.
Katie Vernoy 34:07
Oh, that is ridiculously sad.
Curt Widhalm 34:10
So timing on some of this kind of stuff is that, hey, some of the injuries that show up is then helping to create and these are again, little tiny adjustment disorders. No, don't fit that workout in into your periodization you know, rest week or Recovery Week, that that is a recovery week to let your body recover. And it's and this is where having that understanding of at least knowing what the coach's training plans for training cycles are going to be. So that way you can help create the emotional support because if there's one thing that I know from back in my training days as well as the coaching that I have done, and then also the athletes that have come into my office, the number one thing that I end up working most with clients on is getting appropriate rest and recovery, that it's not just about stressing and working out more. But it's allowing for body and mind recovery, to be able to trust their training.
Katie Vernoy 35:16
I think that's interesting, because I think that resonates probably with a lot of therapists is that most of the people we work with who are on the the more driven side or anxious side, we're also pushing for that rest. But I think we're pushing for different things. So what does rest actually look like for an elite athlete?
Curt Widhalm 35:37
Depends on where in their cycle that they are. And so, for example, a lot of this is going to come down to active versus passive recovery. Passive recovery is just like, go lounge around, sit on the couch, kick up your feet and watch Netflix, which.. There is space for it, but a lot more of athletic. active recovery is going to be things like stretching, slow walks, being able to make sure that that is part of what their plan is, it's cross training appropriately. In a meso cycle, it might be making sure that in the build weeks, it's getting enough sleep, it's being able to remain hydrated enough, it's getting the appropriate sort of nutritional intake and caloric intake. It's not adding in a bunch of extra things into their recovery week, just because they have more time because their workout schedules are less. And if you're talking about macrocycles, former Olympian Bernard Lagat is a middle distance runner from Kenya competed for America, but would take typically the entire month of December off each year without running at all, in order to be able to prepare for the next year in his macro cycle. So it's being able to look at it not only as a here's a blanket plan, but it's here's a specific and catered plan to you and your sport. On a day by day on a week by week and a year by year sort of approach.
Katie Vernoy 37:15
We're back at this year by year thing. I'm curious because we you mentioned stuff around kind of the developmental factors. And it seems like for the the clients that most of our folks would interact with, you know, high school and college athletes. There's a lot of just normal development that's happening during those critical years. But you're also suggesting that there is development that happens in the identity as an athlete.
Curt Widhalm 37:44
Absolutely. And I think where you're talking about some of these parents that are pushing their kids into sports is the biggest goal for introducing a lot of sports to young kids. I'm talking kids ages five to 12 is going to be fun and recreation. And while there's going to be some kids who are good, some kids who are naturally a lot more athletically developed, may even have the the setup to become a bigger, stronger athlete later on. This particular developmental phase as far as their identity to athletics is to have fun, and to keep them in the sport. Now, you can't make a six year old into a major leaguer as a six year old, but you can definitely set them up on a path to hate baseball and not become a major leaguer at six years old.
Katie Vernoy 38:38
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 38:40
And so the developmental factors at that age are just around being able to have fun in relation to a sport becoming an area of interest. Now we're talking about the typically high schoolers, maybe post high school into college, but usually high schoolers. This phase is the investment phase into sports. This is where it needs for those people who are going into that elite caliber of athlete track. This is where the investment to get there really has its basis in most sports. And this is where it's going to be more time playing the game more time practicing more time traveling more time doing the extra things to fit in that create the basis for either being able to compete at the next level. It might be a traveling team. It might be an all star team. It might be you know, moving into the collegiate ranks, that people who don't make those same kinds of investments typically don't get. And it's not just playing well on the field. It's also doing all of the connecting with other coaches and getting your highlight reels up onto YouTube so that way they're shareable and getting you noticed by other people, that ends up taking up a bigger portion of your life. Now, I don't know if you remember being a teenager?
Katie Vernoy 40:12
Are you saying something about my age, Curt?
Curt Widhalm 40:15
I'm saying that for a lot of people who don't remember all of the other parts of being a teenager, there's also your social development, there's also wanting a girlfriend or a boyfriend or wanting to not have to, you know, train and perform every single day. And it's being able to help clarify what some of the internal goals are towards this kind of a pathway. I obviously did not become a professional athlete, I did not get offered any sort of collegiate, you know, hey, we're really wanting you to come out and be a star on our team. In fact, I got exactly one letter in the four sports that I played in high school, I got a letter from one university being like, if maybe you're kind of interested, you can come and try out as a walk on at our very teeny, tiny college. And I chose not to do that whatsoever. I'm fairly certain that they sent this letter out to everybody.
Katie Vernoy 41:28
Got it. So that wasn't your your specific experience.
Curt Widhalm 41:34
But looking back at my own specific experience, one of my high school classmates did play Major League Baseball. And so there is a little bit of a comparison here that the investment that he made into sports was much greater than mine, I pursued a lot of different interests. I was in clubs, I had jobs I had, I didn't have girlfriends. He did. But, but his development became more and more specified towards baseball, the older that we became, and it paid off for him and took a lot of extra training for him to do that. That was more and more sports specific.
Katie Vernoy 42:24
Yeah - Yeah, I mean, my experience was more I was, I was performing elitely as a singer of all things. So I was spending tons and tons of time on singing and making sure that I could speak and sing at the right times, and, and all of that. So there was a little of that, that I experienced, I did not get a music scholarship, but I didn't want to continue to pursue music. So it wasn't a thing. But my dad actually was a an athlete on and was recruited for a football team. And I actually was born while he was there. And, and so that the stories were all around that, you know, really how his life was centered around being a football player. And, and so to me, it is a very, it's a center point of a, an identity. But I think there are other pieces that go into it. I wasn't just a singer, My dad wasn't just a football player, there were other things that went into that, and, and to me, and now neither of us are doing those things professionally. So it's not the same thing. But I think there is an element of how balanced can a life be when you're pursuing this higher, higher goal, because it seems like the amount of time it takes for, especially depending on the sport, but the amount of time it takes, and the focus and the the need to be on your game, even when you're not playing your game. Because of the impacts on your body. And when you need to show up and when you need to peak and all those things, it seems like it would be hard to have a balanced life.
Curt Widhalm 44:03
And for those on that trajectory towards becoming an elite athlete, that you are working typically with teenagers or very young adults, to get them to be able to take a step back and looking at how the things in their life serve as a balance within what their primary identity goal as an athlete is. For instance, the people who you know, typically are elite college athletes tend to date other elite college athletes because their training cycles end up needing to be around people who a) understand it b) you know, kind of have their own thing to do that. But c), and maybe most importantly, aren't interfering with their own cycle, that there's exceptions to every relationship rule - everybody don't send us you know, complaints on that - but but this kind of a pairing is really where it's the day to day intricacies of it, of being able to find the hobbies that you can rest and relax with, but don't become so consuming that they become the side hustle that interferes with being able to go out and perform at the top of your game at the right point in your macro cycles.
Katie Vernoy 45:25
So there really is kind of a curation of the people around you when you're that focused.
Curt Widhalm 45:31
Yes. And this is, you know, really where the mentality and the pathway to get to some of these multi million paying jobs in those areas where there are those jobs, or the areas that don't necessarily have all of the, you know, flash and sizzle - the, you know, non revenue, sports and colleges, that that does end up having a lot of reliance on parents to pay for things. You know, a lot of, you know, division one college athletes get like five meals per week provided by the school as part of their educational allowance. Going back to offensive lineman, I was showing Katie a video - we'll link to this in the show notes - of an offensive lineman who may need four or 5000 calories a day, is not getting 5000 calories a day off of five meals a week from the school cafeteria. And, and so the food bills for these kinds of athletes end up becoming exorbitant. But it's also something where the video that we're gonna share shows that the relationship to not only foods but also to the people around you can be something that's greatly impactful and a consideration that we have to have with the kind of athlete and the kind of sport that we're working with. Because, in this video, for those of you who aren't going to go and watch it, he blends up grits, a couple of bananas, six scrambled eggs, peanut butter, and red Gatorade, I will forever die on the Hill that Gatorade flavors are only based on the color that they are, but blends it up, chugs it down. And this video went out on social media kind of went viral. And a couple of weeks later, he's like, I don't get why people are making such a big deal out of this. I do this a couple of times a day, in addition to all of these other giant meals that I eat. And so the maintenance of having a day to day life as an elite athlete has a lot of things beyond just what they're doing out on the field. But it's the things that they put themselves into, in order to continue to show up even when they don't want to. And what really ends up separating out the people that do show up every day who do continue to perform. And the people that you kind of keep bringing this question back to of like, well, you know, those who are considering maybe not, the difference in that grit is the ability to accept some of these roles that being in this particular sport for them end up having as a part of that sport society,
Katie Vernoy 48:25
I hear you, I understand what you're saying. And I have this other element that I think about, which is folks who are talented, they enjoy the sport. But getting to college sports is critical, so they can afford to go to college. And there's this other element of I need to earn the money. And it becomes - it has a different flavor to it. And there's also a big push from the people around them. Like if you don't do this, you can't go to college, we can't afford it. Or this is how you're going to make your mark like it seems like and maybe it's both can be true that someone really wants to pursue this. And they're, they're leaning into it. And it's still hard and all those things, but that the people I'm talking about are people who do make it and it's sacrificing completely, not just to the sport and the talent they have around the sport and the skills they develop on the sport but also to the financial reward.
Curt Widhalm 49:27
I will say from being around this community long enough talking with enough parents and athletes themselves. That is a myth. As far as college being paid for by sports that the number of available athletic scholarships for the vast majority of athletes who are participating in sports get there. They're paying more money to participate in sports, get these extra trainings and this kind of stuff than what their scholarships will actually end up paying out statistically.
Katie Vernoy 50:00
That makes sense. I think there's another piece of getting into a good college and being able to up their ability to do those things. I mean, to me, it seems, it feels a little bit - this is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one - mercenary. Like it feels like I have to do this like that who, ah, because of this end goal, I mean, is that just all a myth?
Curt Widhalm 50:23
No. People do get into that mindset. And it's being able to help channel the mindset into when they eventually hit the reality of that not being what's actually true.
Katie Vernoy 50:36
Got it.
Curt Widhalm 50:37
And so, you know, this is where, you know, as much as I crap on CBT. This is where CBT really ends up working well with a lot of athletes as far as being able to look at some of those specific mindsets and challenge some of those ideas. And even beyond CBT, particularly Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, ends up being something that really helps to balance out some of these concerns that you're bringing up with the realities of the environments that these kinds of clients are operating in, in their day to day life.
Katie Vernoy 51:13
Are there cultural considerations here that we're not talking about yet?
Curt Widhalm 51:17
There will be I think that those are going to depend not only on a, the particular client cultures that people are facing, whether it's race, gender, economic, but I think that there's also culture within individual sports that are going to be unique, and there's going to be a lot of intersectionality about, I'm acknowledging that. And that goes way beyond the scope of the introduction of these ideas today. And those are largely going to be dependent on first looking at it from the sport perspective first, and then all of those other intersectional identities. I mean, one of the major ongoing ones today is the role of trans athletes. And that's going to be pages and pages of an hours of discussion that I'm not qualified to be the one leading a discussion on that, nor am I, the one who would be the best for you to listen to on that.
Katie Vernoy 52:18
I guess the other element of the the cultural aspects are also in how the system is set up around an athlete given some of their demographics. So let's, let's table the trans athletes conversation, because I think that is beyond the scope of this conversation. And I don't think we should shortchange that conversation. But I think there there are, are ways in which people are going to interact around sports, the sports they choose, but also the society and the system that builds up around them. And so to me, it feels like understanding that better would be helpful, because I think we're talking about kind of athletes in a vacuum almost to this point.
Curt Widhalm 53:03
And it's looking at the ways that we even conceive of it. You know, if anybody is getting a phone call of, hey, this caliber of athletes wants to be your client, there's an excitement of like, I get to be a part of this world. And owning your own relationship to sports and athletics is a really key part of it, because you don't want to be, you know, fanboying or fangirling out to your clients in front of you, that's a easy way to have them quickly move on to somebody else. But it's also looking at the ways that they end up relating to, you know, any other even within their own sports, any other athlete and the way that that sport gets looked at differently. And when I was in high school, I played offensive and defensive line on in football. And so I have a particular appreciation for the unappreciated guys in the trenches, you know, your dad is a center I appreciate nobody is looking at the left guard being like, that is somebody that we want to you know, really go and hang out with everybody's looking at the quarterback, the the flashy, wide receivers those guys. And I've seen, you know, social media posts from some former offensive line people who are like, I'm more famous for how much weight I've lost since playing than anything that I did in my 10 year career as an athlete.
Katie Vernoy 54:37
Yeah, well, yeah. And even talking earlier about how you were saying how, like, you know, after you retire, you know, the body size changes and depending on what sport you're in the body size changes. So I'm assuming as a football player, you were a little bit larger and then getting down to marathon size. My dad's a cyclist, so you know, you just go a totally different body shape and it's it's a very weird thing, but we're off topic, but so the system's around them. So it depends on the sport, it depends on how the team interacts. What are the different presentations on individual versus team?
Curt Widhalm 55:11
So individual sports, you're out there all by yourself, you know, whether it's a one to one sports, something like boxing, wrestling, MMA you are out there, and it's you against somebody else. And there is no place to hide if you lose. Athletes coming from individual sports, or, you know, there's also, you know, individual sports like marathon running, where it's everybody's competing all at once. Athletes in individual sports tend to be less resilient, when it comes to not performing at their level of expectations. And this is because of unique protective factors in the team environment where you win as a team, you lose as a team, it might be one player's mistake out there that cost a game. But overall, the the positive athletic environments end up having a team identity first. And so there's a lot more of being able to relate well to other teammates that helps make athletes from team sports responds to things better, they're less likely to, you know, present with things like depression, or that depressive adjustment disorder type diagnostics, whereas individual athletes are putting themselves in a position to be evaluated and having to face the ownership and sometimes shame of not placing or performing as well as they individually felt that they could.
Katie Vernoy 56:42
What about the the kind of hybrid sports so like, you know, a lot of I'm thinking gymnastics, I'm thinking the track team, like I had individual events when I was running track. And then I also did a relay. And so obviously, the relay is a team sport and or team event and you know, doing the 880 was individual. But when you have both of those elements within how you work, I'm thinking specifically of like gymnastics, you have the individual, and then you also have the team scores, how does that impact an athlete?
Curt Widhalm 57:16
So and this is, again, another opportunity to gently point out the competency of knowing the sports that your athletes are participating in. You're specifically talking about gymnastics as a individual in a team thing, which is particular to Olympic Gymnastics, whereas at like collegiate gymnastics, it's about the team score. And that's where you'll see a lot more, you know, of that celebratory team aspects that goes along with collegiate gymnasts, as you might in comparison to seeing more of that individually focused Olympic gymnast thing. There's also entirely different scoring systems. But you do bring up a good point, as far as some of that hybrid aspect, I think that this speaks to what good social systems around athletes end up having in common. And a big piece of that is the opportunities for inclusion in a supportive training community. And one of the athletics that I did in high school was one of the things that you listed was track and field. And what I can say is that I did not contribute very often to the overall team score. I did once and that is forever my favorite day on the track team.
Katie Vernoy 58:37
Nice.
Curt Widhalm 58:39
And there were people on my team that carried us to second place in the state my senior year that I and I did not contribute to that team score whatsoever.
Katie Vernoy 58:52
It sounds like we were similar high school athletes.
Curt Widhalm 58:56
But that's that environment did is there was a lot of support, there was a lot of, hey, you're out there performing as an individual, your success is supported by the team that in comparison to you know, more of those individualized sports even, you know, as I'm looking back on it now, in comparison to other sports, like this - wrestling, cross country where there's an individual component and a team component. I think it's gonna vary depending on the sport some,
Katie Vernoy 59:29
Okay
Curt Widhalm 59:29
It's and maybe it's just because the other teams that I was on didn't place but it felt like, you know, in wrestling that the individual accolades mattered more than the team ones, whereas in track and field both seem to really come and maybe it was the environment that our particular track coaches had really set up well there.
Katie Vernoy 59:50
Well, let's, let's get to a little bit more of of what these social systems should look like. Because it seems to me having a really nice supportive training community is one of them. What else should an athlete be looking at? What else should therapists be supporting their clients and accessing?
Curt Widhalm 1:00:08
Exciting some research from Hendrickson at all hear that there are certain components of a successful athletic environment that share a unique number of features. And that first one is that supportive training community. The second one that they identified as having role models, in other words, people who've done this and done it well, and this is a community that is, you know, elite athletes that is largely based on, they're gonna listen to people who have been there and done that, where maybe, you know, a lot of coaches and stuff do come from their own high performance, athletic backgrounds themselves, Of hey, I can trust you, because you've done this. The third factor, and this is really where therapists can either get on board with this or get in the way of this is having the support of the sporting goals by the wider environment, you are part of the wider environment.
Katie Vernoy 1:01:08
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 1:01:09
And if where you're not, you know, supportive of how this particular athlete fits into the team, then you're going to not make it. Other components that Hendrickson et al discuss is focusing on long term development rather than short term success. Where are you at in your cycle, you're outperforming you know, where you're at in your macro cycle, you need to back off, this is the goal of this particular workout or this particular race, it's not necessarily to win, it's for you to get this kind of a performance out of it.
Katie Vernoy 1:01:43
That makes sense
Curt Widhalm 1:01:44
Integration of factors outside of sports, such as school, family, other components to the environment, dating, relationships, those kinds of things. And a coherent organizational culture. And this is where, you know, I've heard from some of my clients before that, they knew that the cultural organization wasn't the same when there was things like coaching changes, you know, not necessarily at the head coach level, but assistant coaches, where people had kind of different opinions on things that started to look at the erosion of their team's ability to perform. So those factors overall, and everybody being in support towards the same goals ends up leading to successful treatment of athletes. And, again, this is where you're gonna end up treating these kinds of clients a lot differently than you would with somebody else who's like, you know, I'm kind of burned out at my job.
Katie Vernoy 1:02:41
Sure, sure. Yeah, to me, it seems like there's, there's a nuance here, that I don't think we have time to go into around how we support the healthy expression of this identity. And also support what's in this integration of factors outside of sport, which is the other elements of their identity, because I think they're, you know, depending on I guess, where they are in their cycles, the sports identity needs to come central. And I think that will be, that would be hard for me to be like, okay, yep, you know, this is the, this is the microcycle, that you have to be pushing really hard, you know, everything else off the table, like, I don't know that I could, you know, kind of, I would have to kind of get my head around it to be able to do that, because I feel like there was a push outside of this community toward a work life balance or toward, you know, moderation. So to me, I feel like there's there's a challenge there in, in folks who don't get it. To be able to it's this isn't intuitive to me, like some of these things make a lot of sense. Some of its intuitive, some of its optimal performance. We've talked about this before, we'll talk about it again. But some of this is like someone hates what they're doing. It's potentially hurting their bodies. And yet, this is what they need to be doing this week. Because next week, they're going to rest like, that's the part where - not necessarily totally intuitive for me to be able to just ride with that.
Curt Widhalm 1:04:18
And that's why we started this episode, really focusing on having the competency to know what you're working with and what the the larger goals of this particular client are. Because if you've spent all of your life going towards becoming performing at the highest level, and knowing, you know, at, like a division one school, I've had, you know, athletes, you know, one of the wonderful things about being a therapist in Los Angeles is it's a great college town. We have a lot of very competitive colleges in a number of different sports. That, you know, particularly at some of the division one schools around I've heard from clients like, I was phenomenal as a high school athlete, I was all state, I, you know, put in the work I did the traveling teams. I'm seventh best at my position in this particular sport, and if I don't show up, it's my scholarship. It's my, it's everything that I've built up to, and yes, I'm hurt, or yes, I'm depressed or Yes, I want to, you know, talk about, you know, not being able to find dates, who, you know, are willing to walk around with a 300 pound lineman or a six foot six, you know, female basketball player, you know, that these are the kinds of things where they have considerations outside of their life, that they don't fit into normal society. And we have to accept that as supporting providers in their life.
Katie Vernoy 1:05:58
It just seems like so much of their life, and their identity is wrapped up in being this athlete. And, and to me, I think about permanent injury, like maybe not there, it may be permanent, like it affects their whole life, but permanent in that they cannot play their sport or play at the level or retirement. I mean, I think this is where, you know, to close out this conversation as the time's running down, it seems like that dramatic transition, whether planned or unplanned, you know, depending on if it's a an injury, or retirement, it seems to me like that would be huge and really hard to navigate.
Curt Widhalm 1:06:38
It is. And it's something where, again, this is going to fall under a very particular adjustment disorder type treatment. But it's not going to necessarily be something that you're going to treat as a normal adjustment disorder type thing. Somebody who's intentionally retiring. You know, this is me, you know, in the news, at the time of recording this episode, Ben Roethlisberger, retiring from 18 years in the NFL, this is a planned retirement sort of thing he is going out on I have made this decision, I am transitioning to a different part of my life. That is going to have a much different transition and treatment approach than somebody who has a broken leg and isn't able to play anymore, or is not making the team after, you know, several years of being on the team and got outperformed by somebody younger, faster, stronger. Or somebody who's been in an accident. So that retirement adjustment is going to have a very heavy focus on not only appropriately grieving that kind of a period of their life, but helping them to form a new identity. This is different than you know, hey, I'm leaving this agency job and I'll go find a different kind of, you know, therapy job. This is more akin to like, leaving the military where it's a very functional shift as far as what your role is, and what your approach to the rest of the world is. There's a number of stories and again, my soft spot for NFL linemen the underappreciated, but link to at least one article in the show notes of people talking about the transitioning out of being a NFL lineman to where you spent years and years eating 1000s and 1000s of extra calories per day just to be as large as possible, where it's also, you've shut off that part of your body of relating to what foods means that you can't tell if you're hungry or not. You're used to having several meals out of the day, and you're stopping at fast food restaurants just because it's that time of day when I normally have 1000 calories, and being able to even have a different relationship with their body at that point. So there really is a core identity change that happens at that end of career as well.
Katie Vernoy 1:09:12
So before we close up, that led me to another question, and I think there's some questions that potentially are on the minds of folks, when they started this episode. Is that there's the question, the hanging question of: Is this reasonable to expect people to perform at this level? I mean, because it gets harder and harder. I mean, we didn't talk about steroids and other you know, performance enhancing drugs. You know, there there are things that as a society, we ask of our athletes that really push them very far into what I would consider unhealthy patterns, if they're eating so many calories so they can stay at a certain weight or they're restricting so much so that they can stay at a certain weight. That is disordered eating. By the by definition, right. And I think there's there's also folks who we, you know, if we look at Simone Biles or Naomi Osaka who have stated being at the top of their game, I can't show up today or I'm not going to do this today and really opening the conversation around is this something as mental health professionals that we should support for every person that can that could perform at that level?
Curt Widhalm 1:10:31
You know, you're you bring up Simone Biles and Naomi Osaka as a couple of good examples here. That it's not an all or nothing approach to working with athletes. And it's looking at the particulars of a given situation. And Simone Biles walked away from a portion of the Olympics and got almost universal support from other gymnasts, a lot of mental health professionals and, and I'll throw my hat in the ring on this, I support what she did at least what was in the news because it gave a space in a conversation to when you're at the top of your game, and you know that you can't perform, there should be more permission to step away. Now, where I think that some people in our therapist community have taken that is, the sport should not be that way, it should not have that amount of pressure. And I don't think that that's a reality. I don't think that that's a possibility. And so this is shifting our focus as a mental health professional in working and commenting on these types of situations of accepting what the reality is. and working within that rather than trying to create some utopia that doesn't exist
Katie Vernoy 1:11:49
I'm sure we can get a lot of feedback on that statement. Because we've also talked about if there is a need for advocacy, that's one thing that therapists can do.
Curt Widhalm 1:11:58
And the advocacy is to step up and make the space for this, you know, Naomi Osaka is the other example, you know, refusing to talk to the media at the French Open and accepting the consequences of that, hey, in order to take care of myself, it doesn't mean that there shouldn't be media talking to athletes, it doesn't mean that athletes can't talk to the media if they don't want to. It's that, alright, in order for me to do my best, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to accept this consequence.
Katie Vernoy 1:12:27
Yeah. And so I guess what you're saying is, look at it in a more of a nuanced lens don't necessarily go straight to the social justice lens.
Curt Widhalm 1:12:38
Exactly.
Katie Vernoy 1:12:38
Of what is society asking of these folks, and is it reasonable, but looking at what are these, what how are we empowering these individuals who have chosen to perform at this high level? How do we empower them to lead healthier lives?
Curt Widhalm 1:12:53
Yes, exactly.
Katie Vernoy 1:12:55
All right.
Curt Widhalm 1:12:56
You can find our show notes including our references over at mtsgpodcast comm you can also find out the information of if you want to get continuing education for listening to this episode. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 1:13:13
Just a quick reminder, if you'd like one unit of continuing education for listening to this episode, go to moderntherapistcommunity.com purchase this course and pass the post test. A CEU certificate will appear in your profile once you've successfully completed the steps.
Curt Widhalm 1:13:28
Once again, that's moderntherapistcommunity.com.
Katie Vernoy 1:13:32
Thanks again to our sponsor SuperBill.
Curt Widhalm 1:13:35
If your practice doesn't accept insurance super bill can help your clients get reimbursed. Super bill is free for therapists and your clients can use the code super bill 22. That's super bill to two to get a free month of super bill. Also you can earn $100 For every therapist you refer to super bill. After your clients complete the one time HIPAA compliant onboarding process, you can just send their super bills to claims at thesuperbill.com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement by helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies superville can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%.
Katie Vernoy 1:14:18
The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Curt Widhalm 1:14:30
Hey everyone, Kurt and Katie here. If you love this longer form content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more. If you
Katie Vernoy 1:14:55
don't think you can make a monthly contribution no worries. We also have a buy me a coffee profile For one time donations, support us at whatever level that you can today. It really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/mtsgpodcast or buymeacoffee.com /moderntherapist. Thanks everyone.
Announcer 1:15:15
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Antiracist Practices in the Room: An Interview with Dr. Allen Lipscomb Curt and Katie speak with Dr. Allen Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW about what therapists should consider in working with Black clients, common mistakes, and implementing anti-racist procedures into practice. What can therapists do better? Where is graduate education lacking? How do we respect and explore our Black client’s narratives? Who can work with Black clients? How can therapists help clients heal from race-based trauma?
Interview with Dr. Allen Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW Dr. Allen E. Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW is an Associate Professor at Cal State University Northridge. Dr. Lipscomb received his PsyD from Ryokan College in Clinical Psychology and his Masters in Social Work from the University of Southern California. Dr. Lipscomb has also received additional certification through Cornell University in Diversity, Equity and Inclusion as well as a Certificate in Mixed-Methods Community-Based Research from the University of Michigan. Dr. Lipscomb is the creator and writer of the BRuH Approach to Therapy, specifically created for the healing of trauma in Black Men. He has taught courses in Social Work Practices with Urban Families, Psychosocial Assessing, Diagnosing, and Evaluation, Family Crisis Trauma and Grief, and many more classes. Dr. Lipscomb is a researcher in Black Male Grief and has contributed to numerous peer reviewed papers and textbooks.
In this podcast episode we talk about working with Black male clients and antiracist best practices. We talked about Dr. Lipscomb’s BRuH model in a previous episode and thought it would be important to dig more deeply into his model and how he works with Black male clients.
“You don’t have to understand something to hold space for something.” – Dr. Allen Lipscomb
How can we do better with our Black male clients? * Black male grief shows up in different ways than other client’s grief might show up. * When assessing Black males for psychosis or conspiracy theories, ensure that you look at the context of their lived experience before determining psychosis * The traumatic experiences of racialization, trauma, and mistreatment that many Black people can sound like lead to thoughts that might sound psychotic to an uneducated clinician. * Listen to the client’s narratives. Question what the themes and patterns are and if the thought is maladaptive to their functioning and well-being. * Utilize FIDO: frequency, intensity, duration and onset in questioning clients * If a clinician is unsure if a thought is a conspiracy or legitimate threat, assess for how the client’s community is responding to the client’s narrative
“I think we also get it wrong when we don't consider who we are as clinicians in the space with them” – Dr. Allen Lipscomb
- Ask clients how the session was for them. How was it for you to meet with me? Acknowledge your cultural limitations and create an invitation for the client to let you know when you can do better.
- Be mindful, Black male clients might be minimizing their experiences to be “less threatening.” This is the cultural congruency dichotomy that clients often have to take to avoid further potential trauma.
What does it mean to be antiracist?
“I'm okay with talking about [race when a therapist brings it up in session]. Because as a Black man, I don't know if you want to, or if you're able to talk about it. So, guess what, I am never going to bring up your whiteness in the space.” – Dr. Allen Lipscomb
- Clients might be resistant to bringing up a clinician’s whiteness in the space.
- Black clients might not think that a white clinician has the capability or desire to talk about race. It is the responsibility of the clinician to actively establish the openness of the space to discuss race and the client’s lived experience.
- This should be a continuous conversation that is led by therapists, to make the topic open until it feels naturally open.
- It’s affirming to have someone who is white in a position of power to say to me – hey I recognize we’re racially different and we could have a different experience how that shows up in this space.
- You can catch moments where anti-racist action could’ve been taken or acknowledged in the next session, if missed during a session.
- The need to revamp our graduate programs to be anti-oppressive and anti-racist
- How to show up as an ally in the room, without centering your own experience
What is Dr. Allen Lipscomb’s BRuH Method? * The BRuH Method, or BAT, stands for BRuH Approach to Therapy. * BRuH stands for Bonding through Recognition to promote Understanding in Healing when providing therapeutic services to Black men specifically. * The approach is modeled off of other therapeutic approaches like CBT and DBT * Phases include: Bonding Phase, Recognition Phase, Understanding Phase, Healing Phase * The clinician is always doing aspects of the various phases throughout the course of treatment * This is not an evidence-based practice but an honoring based practice * The evidence of efficacy in this practice comes when you see your clients continuously returning to receive more sessions, from the feedback they give you, and the improvements in day-to-day life.
Who can work with Black male clients? * There can be an urge for white therapists to refer clients of color, especially Black men, to Black clinicians * These referrals are unnecessary. A therapist of any background, if holding the space correctly and connecting with the client’s felt experience, can work with a client of color, specifically Black men. * It’s important to be mindful that questions asked to clients are not investigative or for the purpose of educating the therapist. * Focus on listening and honoring the client experience. Make space to allow them to emote in the therapeutic environment.
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: SuperBill Interested in making it easier for your clients to use their out-of-network-benefits for therapy? SuperBill is a service that can help your clients get reimbursed without having to jump through hoops. Getting started is simple - clients complete a quick, HIPAA-compliant sign-up process, and you send their superbills directly to us so that we can file claims with their insurance companies. No more spending hours on the phone wrangling with insurance companies for reimbursement. Superbill eliminates that hassle, and clients just pay a low monthly fee for the service.
If your practice doesn’t accept insurance, SuperBill can help your clients get reimbursed. SuperBill is free for therapists, and your clients can use the code SUPERBILL22 to get a free month of SuperBill. Also, you can earn $100 for every therapist you refer to SuperBill. After your clients complete the one-time, HIPAA-compliant onboarding process, you can just send their superbills to claims@thesuperbill.com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement. By helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies, SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%. The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit thesuperbill.com to get started.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Allen Lipscomb Faculty Webpage
Allen Lipscomb Instagram
Allen Lipscomb Twitter
BRuh Approach to Therapy (BAT) and Other Related Services to Promote Healing Traumatic Grief Among African American Men and Youth: A Clinical Practice Guide and Workbook by Allen Lipscomb, PsyD, LCSW
Black Male Grief Reaction to Trauma: A Clinical Case Study of One Man’s Mental Health Treatment by Dr. Allen Lipscomb
How to Be An Antiracist by Dr. Ibram X Kendi
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast:
Conspiracy Theories in Your Office
Let’s Talk About Race with Stevon Lewis, LMFT
Let’s Talk About Race Again, with Yin Li, LMFT
Being a Therapist on Both Sides of the Couch with Rwenshaun Miller, LCMHC
Therapy as a Political Act with Dr. Travis Heath, PhD
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by SuperBill.
Katie Vernoy 00:05
Interested in making it easier for your clients to use their out of network benefits for therapy? SuperBill is a service that can help your clients get reimbursed without having to jump through hoops. Getting Started as simple. Clients complete a quick HIPAA compliant signup process and you send their super bills directly to us so that we can file claims with their insurance companies. No more spending hours on the phone wrangling with insurance companies for reimbursement. Super bill eliminates that hassle and clients just pay a low monthly fee for the service.
Curt Widhalm 00:34
Stay tuned for details on super bills therapist referral program and a special discount code for your clients to get a free month of service.
Announcer 00:42
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:58
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists that explains and explores a lot of things that we don't necessarily get in our trainings. And rather than just waiting for clients to show up to our office and make us have to learn things, or hope that we know everything about our clients coming in or in some cases where clients might not be coming in. Due to some certain factors. We are being joined today by Dr. Allen Lipscomb an LCSW. We had made reference to him back in our conspiracy theory podcast a couple of months ago, as far as having a particular method that we'll get to a little bit later in this episode here. But Dr. Lipscomb, we found out after that episode, He's an associate professor at Cal State University Northridge, where I also teach so always kind of cool to see how our communities come together. Thank you very much for joining us today. Dr. Lipscomb,
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 02:10
Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.
Katie Vernoy 02:12
We're so excited to have you here. I was reading through the the BRuH method you put together, I really liked the things that you had to say in that conspiracy theory article that we had referenced before. Just so excited to talk with you today and and pick your brain a bit. But we always start with all of our guests with the question, Who are you? And what are you putting out to the world?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 02:37
Absolutely. I am a Black male grief researcher, I am a clinician, I am a professor, I am a father, I am a partner as well.
Curt Widhalm 02:47
And we are starting out the conversation in talking about working with Black male clients and case people haven't noticed therapy's been pretty white for a very long time. And this is a population that might have some reservations about seeking out some services. What are we getting wrong as a profession that's making it to where it's creating maybe some unnecessary barriers to being attractive to Black males as far as clients wanting to seek out services? And once they do show up? Is there things that we continue to do wrong?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 03:29
I love so much this question, Curt. Yes, I think the first thing we're getting wrong is this whole narrative that Black males are not wanting or coming in for services and therapy. One of the things I found out fairly quickly, when I went into private practice, I still maintain a small private practice is that that was the number one population that I started to see in a private practice setting were Black males. And I said, Wait a minute, this went against everything I learned in my graduate program, there was a lot of information in research around resistance, and and there being trepidation and coming in and seeking services. So when I started to see a lot of Black men coming in for therapy, and underneath that, regardless of why they were coming in for services, I found that there was this underlying grief piece unresolved grief piece. And so I think going back to your second question is what do we get wrong when they come in? I think we're not prepared for them to come in. So then we don't know how to hold the therapeutic space, assess, provide services and treatment that are culturally responsive
Katie Vernoy 04:40
With this grief, and I think you described it in the questionnaire we sent over as Black male trauma, traumatic grief. Can you talk a little bit about what you're what you're referring to there?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 04:50
Absolutely. So when we think about traumatic grief among Black men, it is due to racialization it is race based trauma. So you yours, Floyd, Ahmad Marbury Trayvon Martin, right, so on and so forth, that has an emotional and psychological traumatic impact on other Black men and youth who were exposed to it and hear it and view it on social media.
Curt Widhalm 05:14
So for those of us who got the grad school experience of wait, they are actually going to show up to therapy. Can you help us with? What do we do? What What can we do better to help support clients who are facing this kind of traumatic grief and actually promote health and healing in this process as we welcome them into our practices.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 05:42
I think in the initial phases of services in treatment, that engagement and rapport building, it's really about slowing yourself down enough to honor support in respect, what fair sharing, even if it doesn't make sense, in our own view, based on our positionality social location. intersectionality. One of the things I found for non Black folks who are providing clinical services to Black folk, specifically Black men, is they feel like they have to provide them a referral to a Black male therapist, because they are white, because they might be Asian Pacific Islander identified, etc. They don't believe that they are the best person to provide services. And I think that's a mistake too, because who's to say that you cannot be clinically effective, just because you do not identify racially as Black men who may be coming in receiving services.
Katie Vernoy 06:37
So if we don't refer out, I think there's, there's a fear that the lack of lived experience, or the very different lived experience, maybe it's more appropriate way to say it will get in the way of being able to be present, to be empathic to to really understand the experience. What do you say to that?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 06:57
I say you don't have to understand something to hold space for something. One of the examples that I use with my students is that as a cisgender, male, I will never know what it's like to have miscarried. I will never have that lived experience. But can I provide support with compassion, empathy, and respect? For a woman who has miscarried? Absolutely, do I have to refer her to another female therapists who haven't experienced when a miscarriage? Absolutely not. It's how we hold the space and connect with the felt experience that showing up in the room that allows for Black men and people in general, to feel like you get it, you're connected to the felt experience. And we're not questioning their truths, to investigate, to interrogate, to deny, or to make you teach me to get it that that's the other setup is that we don't want to put specifically Black men in the position to have to teach you how to support them in the space. It's truly about listening and honoring and not moving quickly. One of the other things we get wrong going back to the question that Kurt was asking, is we don't allow allow for Black men to emote in the space. And this is everyone. This is Black folk who are clinicians as well. We have learned as a society to mitigate it, to rescue it, to try to make sense of it were by truncating, their bereavement emotive experience in this place that they're sharing. So I tell folks slow down when I provide trainings around Black male grief, when we start to see fluctuations and feelings and expressions, that's your reminder to take a beat allow for that. And they will traverse their own grief and emotive experience.
Curt Widhalm 08:50
So what I'm hearing is, treat them like they're humans.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 08:54
That part. That part. 100% 100%
Curt Widhalm 08:59
It's interesting, because I remember back to the day in my cross cultural class when I was in grad school to talk about working with Black clients. Yes, the one day and
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 09:12
the one day the one class,
Curt Widhalm 09:13
though, yes, exactly that that talks about almost the opposite of what you're suggesting, which is that if Black clients are coming in, you should give them a very structured and formal idea of how long treatments and action is going to take. So that way they can predict how they're going to get out of treatment.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 09:34
Mm hmm. And I think that's that's the setup, right? And what I like to do is go critical, go a little bit deeper and say, Well, where are we getting this information from? How do we know that we need to do this right? Have we talked to and spoken to Black folks who are receiving services? That's what started me on this whole Black male grief journey is that one I found that this was one of the number one unresolved issues that I was seeing across the board with Black men. And too when I looked at the literature and research on Black male grief, it didn't exist eight, nine years ago when I started off on this journey, right? It's like, what do you mean Black male grief, grief is grief. And there's still folks who believe that grief is grief, there is no difference. And what I have found over the past eight years, is that it is different. And it does show up different specifically around Black Male grief.
Katie Vernoy 10:25
There's so many different places to go with this. I have, you know, so many questions. I'm gonna try to pick a question here. And then we'll probably get back to other ones in a little bit. But But I think the first one is really looking at, believe the clients experience be present slow down. And we first mentioned your work rate related to conspiracy theories, and how those things can show up. And so I'm very curious on how you hold both of those things, especially towards the beginning of treatment, when you're just getting to know someone it seems like there is there's a lot that could be there. So maybe I'll start with that question. And then we'll, we'll keep scooting around, because there's just so much I want to ask.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 11:06
Absolutely. So when you're first beginning services and engaging, specifically when we talk about conspiracy theories, we don't know enough about who that person is to determine at that initial intake session. If this is truly a conspiracy theory, is it rooted in psychosis? I mean, yes, it depends on if there is psychosis here, right? hallucinations and delusions, we can pick up on that rather quickly because of our training and skills. But what I'm touching on, it's more about the lived experiences connected to racialization and trauma, and the mistreatment of Black folks that can lead to these conspiracy theories related to I don't know what they're putting into my body. I don't want to go and get vaccinated. We'll talk a little bit more about that. Right? Notice, I'm not saying Help me understand, because I may never understand that. Right. Talk to me more about that. Right? When did you first notice this? Right? I tell my students do FIDO frequency, intensity duration at onset? When did you first start having this experience around people putting things in your body? When was the last time how often does it happen? So on and so forth? And what we're assessing for is one listening to their narratives, to what are the themes and patterns? And is it impeding upon their functioning and overall well being? That's when we have to go a different route with it. That's when it's concerning as it relates to their mental health.
Katie Vernoy 12:37
I think the follow on question is how do you know if it's a conspiracy theory or somebody's really out to get you? I mean, I think those are the things that especially in in being a white person working with a Black person, I think that there could be a tendency if I'm not just exploring the lived experience, where if I'm showing any doubt, I mean, part of that could be biased part of it could be something else. But it also I think, could be really invalidating for the lived experience. And so I don't know if you have any suggestions on how to walk that line for non-Black therapists,
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 13:10
wonderful question. Assess for how their community and kinship are responding to that narrative. What do I mean? Ask them? Have you spoken to your family about this? How have they responded to this? Do they support your relatives? What does your community like if you're a part of a church, etc? How have they responded? Because that's what you will start to suss out and find out. Is this culturally connected and relevant or not? Because if the kinship and family community is saying, no, no, no, no, no, this is all in your head. There we go. That's information for us. That makes sense. Thank you. Mm hmm.
Curt Widhalm 13:51
One of the things that I'm noticing as you're talking about this is, it's also very much in the way that you're presenting these questions. And you made mention to this in interviews that we've seen you do with other people if we acknowledge that other people get your time too. But just in this still very supportive way, that it's not just kind of like when did these audits that ends up making it be challenging and confrontive that is invalidating to the clients experience that it's very much in still creating that positive nurturing environment there too.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 14:30
This is why I came up with the whole BRuH approach, right? The bonding recognition to promote understanding and healing is to truly honor people and that this is not anything new. This is trauma informed care, right? Healing centered engagement, right? I didn't invent this family. I am just saying we have to be intentional when we are holding the spaces. So the three questions that I continue to ask myself as I'm formulating my thoughts and engaging And in services with Black men, is the way in which I am about to ask this question, is it honoring? Is it hurting? Or is it hindering? Couldn't hinder them? Could it hurt? Right? Is it honoring their? Is it helpful to them? These are things I kind of think about and also allows me to pause and slow down, to engage in more mindfulness, intentional practice, when I'm providing clinical services, versus just engaging whatever comes to me in going with my gut in the moment, right, maybe I need to take a beat and take a pause. I think this goes back to the question that you were asking earlier regarding where we get it wrong. I think we also get it wrong when we don't consider who we are as clinicians in the space with them. Gone are the days where we cannot talk about how they're experiencing us, as the provider of mental health services based on who we are intersectionally speaking. So at the end of my sessions, I will ask my clients, how was it for you to meet with me today? And usually, they'll say things like, Oh, it was fine. It was cool. It was whatever. And I'll say, Good, I'm glad. How was it for you to meet with me as another Black male in the space? Oh, it was fine. It was okay. It was whatever, okay? If ever there comes a time, because although we may identify as both Black males, there may be something that I might miss, because of my own experience, or lack of experience, please know that we can talk about it, throughout the time that we are working together in this therapeutic relationship, how does that sound to you? Now, you don't have to be a Black male therapist to insert that, it's acknowledging I represent something. And I recognize you may have an experience of me. And guess what, we get to talk about it. I'm okay with that.
Katie Vernoy 16:50
I like that. And I also know that there are some therapists who are afraid to bring up race when they don't share the race of the person that they're working with. And I know I've claimed it on this episode, or not this episode on this podcast that like, there was one time I tried it. And it was, it was with it with an Asian American family. But I was just like, let and it was, it was a big old mess. And so I think and maybe this is just to kind of acknowledge that sometimes bringing race into the room feels very challenging for folks, non Black folks, especially I think, but I've heard over and over again. And I've experienced this in the work that I've done subsequent to some of this new learning, that it actually is a relief, or it's a non issue. And so I don't know if you have more to say about that. But I think it's something where I know for myself, I get that little bit of nervousness of like, this is a thing. And then it's usually a really interesting conversation and a way to connect. So..
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 17:50
100%, You know, it's affirming, it's affirming to have someone, let's go with what you were sharing, it's affirming to have someone who is white in a position of power to say to me, Hey, I recognize that we are racially different. And I also recognize that we could have a different experience about how that shows up in this space.
Katie Vernoy 18:13
Yeah,
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 18:13
I'm okay with talking about it. Because as a Black man, I don't know if you want to, or if you're able to talk about it. So guess what, I am never going to bring up your whiteness in the space.
Curt Widhalm 18:25
I've mentioned on the previous episodes here, as well of working with teenagers in my practice that when Black clients, usually parents are on that intake phone call with me, one of the questions that I asked in that intake phone call, and then also in the first session with a teenager is, you know, do you have any concerns about working with a white therapist. And what I'm hearing out of this is that that's not the only time to have that conversation, that that's a continuous conversation, and one that continues to be need to be led by therapists to make it open until it's naturally happening.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 19:06
Absolutely, it should be integrated. You know, there are times where I'll leave a session and many of my fellow therapists can relate to this, and you're driving home. And you say, oh, my gosh, I missed it. I missed. Okay, you know, that next session, you get to come back and address that. And so I'm saying that to say, even if you don't do it in the moment, but you catch it after you get to come back and bring it in and say I noticed you shared something last week, and I think I missed it. I think this is where our identities came up last week in our session where I did not catch and I want to come back to that authentic, it allows for trusting rapport to be built in a different way. It's like, wow, you get it. You caught it. Absolutely.
Katie Vernoy 19:53
In a training that I went to and I don't remember exactly when it was and I don't know how, how well it was put together, So I'm gonna ask this question from you is, is there you were talking about kind of allowing space or holding proper space for the expression of grief. And when you were talking about identities, it just popped in my my brain that as a society, we fear, Black male, emotion, especially big emotions. And, and I've heard, I think in some of these previous trainings that there is an impulse or an instinct or a perceived need, I don't know exactly, or potentially a real need for a Black male client, to protect their therapist, from their emotions. And I know in some of the interactions that I've had with Black men that there are times when I feel like I'm getting a veneer of very nice, very kind, very smiley man, non threatening man Hello, non threatening, non threatening, and, and I feel like that must show up in therapy with with folks who are sitting cross culturally from a Black male client. And so I don't know if you can talk a little bit about that.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 21:01
I love everything about this. Absolutely, absolutely. I refer to this as the cultural congruent dichotomy, right. And so in session, if you look differently than me, with the example that you were just sharing, I am going to ensure that what I say, not only is not going to make you uncomfortable, but I want to make sure that what I say is not going to get me in trouble, I'm not gonna get hospitalized, or whatever it might be. So although I'm extremely uncomfortable, being like, this is my initial session with you, etc. But guess what, I am catering to your perceived discomfort, or I don't even know if you might be uncomfortable. But I have learned as a Black man in the society that I need to make you comfortable, where in reality, I'm the one who's extremely uncomfortable in this therapeutic relationship starting off. And then the other opposite of that applies, where if you look like the person you're providing services to so Black male with a Black male, there's also this congruence piece where I expect you to get it. So when you don't get it or you question or deny my experience rooted in my Blackness and racism, etc, and does a special type of cultural injury that is deeper than a white person who did not get it because I expected them not to get it. Whereas you have all people should have gotten it.
Katie Vernoy 22:28
So interesting. And it speaks to and I read the article that you wrote about the BRuH method and using that with your three clients, the case studies, and it was something where you really mentioned kind of the really understanding where you where you're situated, and the intersectionality that's happening in the room, and constantly coming back to that, and being aware of that, and it feels like, especially in our society, and how we treat Black men that that would be foremost of importance, utmost importance for working with Black men.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 23:00
Absolutely. It's that constant reminder and recognition that because of who we are intersectionally speaking, it is always showing up in the space because it's showing up in your life day to day in my life to day to day
Curt Widhalm 23:16
What needs to change in therapist education that makes treating people like people wherever their intersectionality is, but especially when it comes to some of the cross cultural stuff that we can, you and me as educators can start to implement now. But that we need to start looking at systemically to be able to take this nuance, but also take kind of this universal honoring approach to clients in a way that does promote this healing.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 23:47
I think we need to revamp and restructure our curriculum. 100%, right. I think we need to look at how is our ... What are we included in our curriculum? Is it anti oppressive, anti racist, and socially just also, is it integrated throughout all of the courses Gone are the days where we take that one multicultural class, and then we're done. It needs to be throughout our entire program, so that when folks are finished with their graduate education, they have a teen understanding of what it means to provide effective, culturally responsive, anti oppressive, anti racist, honoring base political services to the community, regardless,
Katie Vernoy 24:34
So if we're really going to try to look at that very specifically, what are the most important elements in a practice that that is anti oppressive, anti racist, honoring, all of those things? Like where where would you start or where I mean, I guess the BRuH method, just kind of where you started, but like, tell us a little bit more about what actually this treatment could look like. Because to me when I was reading about the method, it felt like it was very effective for This population and really should help is how we should practice with everyone.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 25:05
Absolutely, absolutely, I think we should be able to expand, right taking the approach to really expanded to all populations and communities, it goes back to what I was saying before, I'm not doing anything new. It's how I'm putting it together to work with a specific population. I think the other piece is, we have to listen to the communities to inform our practice, I am all about practice, informed research, practice informed evidence, etc. Gone are the days where we come up with something and then we do it, it should be in response to the clients that we're working with. And that is guiding how we're providing services to be effective in ways that really honor who they are intersectionally speaking,
Curt Widhalm 25:56
You know, I, for those of you who only know me by voice, I'm pretty white.
Katie Vernoy 26:05
With a glorious beard, glorious beard
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 26:07
It's a lovely beard, from one beard to another.
Curt Widhalm 26:13
And I point this out, and that's growing up in a very white part of the country. And just for people who are new to these conversations that may not necessarily be in the social justice piece of the worlds that I can already hear some of the criticisms of why does this need to be centered on everything that is, you know, part of this, you know, having a response to an anticipated response here is just kind of, I've heard the evolution of this argument into well, it's front and center for Black men and women everywhere. And it's something that's faced every day, and then it fits to anybody else coming from a marginalized community that should also be front and center of a lot of these conversations. And I think that there's those of us in this field who are facing this, who are allies who are doing this kind of work that have a different space, not only in our clients, but also in the response to our profession in this in that you as a Black male and a professor and somebody who hold the position of power, and obviously important enough to be in interviews and cited and all kinds of things. You've got a great position in this as a leader, for those of us facing the people in our lives and the other people in our profession as allies. Is there ways that you recommend us to continue to help elevate these kinds of conversations and to hold our space in it?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 27:54
Absolutely, I think continuing to use your voices in the spaces that you have most contact with in proximity to becomes important. And doing it in such a way where you're not taking over right liberation efforts, you're not coming in as I'm the white savior, coming in and telling you all other white folks how to duck's back to that. It's more about bringing that conversation and topic into the conversation in an intentional way. But also allowing people to do their work around this, right. So I always say practice grace and space, right? We're not beating people over the head, we would hope people will get it in already know it. But we recognize it is not a given for everyone. And so again, allowing for grace and space for people to do their own journey and awareness and reading. I recommend Dr. Ibram Kendi's book all the time, how to be an anti racist. That's a great starting point. Many folks have joined but clubs and groups and things like that around really taking charge and their anti racist work. And so I think about start somewhere versus nowhere and continue to sustain that momentum so that it's not, you know, fizzling out over time.
Katie Vernoy 29:12
And the direction not to be a white savior, I think is is very resonant. I think that there are a lot of folks that that's where they feel like they must land. And I know it's something that I'm constantly trying to grapple with myself, because I've, you know, white guilt, all of the things. So I appreciate that that direction. I think the thing that struck me in reading your work was this notion that this should be very front and center with our clients as well that they're aware of our anti racist, anti oppressive, you know, kind of methods, mechanisms, the way that we're moving in the world. And I guess the question I have is how does that show up at practically in a therapy space like the fact that we are allies that we're working every day to be allies and that we're we're working to be anti racist and anti oppressive like, like Does that I mean, like, without centering our own experience and kind of like, Hey, look at I'm doing good work over here
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 30:06
TV advertisement, right?
Katie Vernoy 30:07
Yeah, look at me, I'm gonna save, you know, whatever it is. So you know, like, how do you how do you? How does that practically show up for folks who are non Black, but then also potentially for folks who are Black that are also wanting to put forward, you know, kind of where they said and this in social justice and those types of things.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 30:25
I love it. I think it is important that it comes out at the beginning, when you're talking about informed consent, your scope of practice, how you'd like to do your work, your theoretical orientation models approaches, I think it's great to go right into in there. And so it could sound something like so I am a cognitive behavioral therapists with an anti oppressive, anti racist lens. What that means is that, as I'm providing Doctor doctor that I also will be intentional at looking at how race shows up and impacts your thinking, your feeling and your behaviors. Boom, that's, done,
Katie Vernoy 31:07
Done and done
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 31:07
Done, you're not taking a lot of space. You're not belaboring the point. You're not trying to get any stickers or a certificate for trophy involve perfect. I asked as a client would be like, Wow, okay, come on. CBT, anti racist therapist.
Katie Vernoy 31:25
I like it, I like it.
Curt Widhalm 31:27
And what I love about what you're saying here is that this is another way of extending the action, that it's it's not just being, you know, that first phone call, like I mentioned with teenagers, parents earlier, it's not just doing it in the first session, it's not just waiting at the end of sessions, either it's being able to say what you're going to do and then do it. And show it's not just, you know, pay lip service to it, which I feel like, especially hearing a lot of corporate messaging around this, of actually being able to just do it without the expectation of getting that sticker.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 32:05
Absolutely. It doesn't feel like tokenization like, I'm waiting, I'm waiting, got my first Black client. Now let me say it, right? No, it feels like you want it to come across. That this is your spiel. Regardless, if you're providing services to someone who is Black, African American, identify, or Latinx identified or Asian Pacific Islander and Native Americans like this is your spiel that you use every single time that you start off services. And that's why I said, it's important that it comes at the beginning when you're talking about informed consent, your theoretical approach and model.
Curt Widhalm 32:40
So we've mentioned a couple of times in the episode, and I want to create some space to get into your your BRuH methods. And having looked at what I've been able to look at it online now being able to talk to you and hear the details of it. I'm excited to hear. So break down what the BRuH method is and how that looks in practice.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 33:06
Absolutely. So BRuH stands for bonding, through recognition, to promote understanding and healing when providing therapeutic services to Black men and specifically. And so what I did was, I started to get feedback from folks saying I love your research you're doing I love you know, your initial book that you wrote on Black male grief. But how do I do this? And what if I can attend your training? Do you have some type of workbook or handout that I could that I could have? So that is what encouraged me to write this book. And so I modeled the approach after the other approaches and models that we see very familiar in, in therapeutic spaces, right? So DBT, CBT, etc. And so there are these phases, if you will, that I just named right, the bonding phase, the recognition phase, the understanding and the healing phases. And it kind of guides you through from the initial when you start off providing services to Black men, and then all the way through. One of the things that is unique about this particular model is that you're always doing aspects of every single thing, the bonding, the recognition, the understanding, to always promote healing in honoring, I say this is not an evidence based practice. It's an honoring based practice and how you know, that you are being effective. Your evidence is them continuing to show up is the feedback they're giving you during your sessions. It's how it's translating in their life day to day. That's your evidence on how effective the approach is for folks who are utilizing it.
Katie Vernoy 34:52
So in the bonding phase, it seems like that's where a lot of this identity work and the intersectionality and those things would start. What? How do you know that you are maybe effectively through the, you know, have a strong enough bond to move into the other elements of the model?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 35:13
When they start saying things they've been your clients saying things like, that aren't tell you the story. Have I told you that before you're like, No, right? That lets you know, that's one indicator, right? That they're feeling more comfortable with you, right, or the consistency by which they're showing up, can let you know that you know what, I think we have a good connection, they're opening up, they're softening in their delivery and how they're sharing things, etc, you're seeing that maybe they're sitting back, this time, for the first time in session, where the past three to four sessions, they were sitting at the edge of their seat, not really comfortable in your space, that's information for you, clinically speaking, that you have established enough bonding, that you can start moving on to the next phases.
Curt Widhalm 36:00
I'm trying to picture this as far as how it works, and especially where there might not be kind of that congruent bonding thing that's almost implicit, you know, the Black male to Black male therapists, but really, in looking at cross cultural therapy, is there considerations that therapist might really need to be aware of as far as bonding, because, again, for those of us very white folk, we can we can be very out of touch in a lot of ways, but you know, rather than just being you know, what's going on in pop culture, or whatever else, but is there considerations in that bonding approach for working with Black male clients that we might not consider?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 36:49
I think allow time for them just to share: How was their experience just getting there today? How was it for you to come in a session today? What what we know to be true in the work that I've done in research, sometimes just getting to their services, they could have a unique experience being being followed or being harassed. Someone called the police on the way here. So maybe wanted to fight them, because they look like they were a threat, or whatever it might be. So part of the bonding, what you can do is to begin to ask about their stories just arriving to session, you're showing interest and curiosity and just their experience, day to day, but more specifically, just coming into the space. It's kind of like when you ask someone, how's the temperature in the room? How does it feel today? Right? Do you want me to turn it down to the right, it's that little communication chat, small chat, small talk, that really helps people to feel comfortable before we start getting into the work.
Katie Vernoy 37:54
So when we're looking at moving - the bonds established, and we're moving into recognition, what does that mean? Because I know that you said, we're kind of in all the spaces. So maybe, maybe we go through the RU H at this point, but like, what are those? What are those different elements look like?
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 38:11
Absolutely. So when we look, when we look at the recognition, the goal of this phase is to honor their experiences of complex trauma, based on who they are intersectionally speaking. So what were their loss or losses, experiences, and grief, connected to maybe racism, maybe health or lack of receiving supportive medical services to their health, and their overall just bereavement process. So when we talk about recognition is trusting without questioning, judging, hijacking the space, and also ensuring that I get what you're saying, I'm following what you're saying at this time. That's the recognition piece. You don't have to understand it, but you can recognize where they're coming from and how that's showing up.
Curt Widhalm 39:00
And paying more than lip service to it so that way, continuing on in the methods that that recognition, creating, understanding for clients have their own process that that's not necessarily something that is the therapist says you pointed out several times here. It's not necessarily even that the therapist have to get into that deep understanding of the clients but helping the clients get to their own understanding.
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 39:28
Absolutely. Andthat's the honoring piece too
Curt Widhalm 39:32
it sounds so simple, to be present and reflect and just give somebody else their own space and their own opportunity to explore themselves and do it in a way that's non judgmental and non shaming.
Katie Vernoy 39:53
And believe them
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 39:55
And believe them. It Yeah, it is so simple, but because of our our own biases because of our own concerns, fears, it really gets in the way of truly being there and holding the space.
Katie Vernoy 40:09
Exactly.
Curt Widhalm 40:12
Wher can people find out more about you and all of the stuff that you're doing,
Dr. Allen Lipscomb 40:18
You can find me on social media, Instagram, at Dr dot A lips comb, or Twitter at our combs. That's a LC O M B 101. Or you can go to my faculty webpage at Cal State Northridge, you just type in my name CSUN. And you will see different articles that I have written books, as well. So one of the books that I was just referencing is the approach. You can find it on Amazon. And then also my other book Black male grief reaction to trauma, one man's mental health story, and you can find that on Amazon, as well.
Curt Widhalm 40:59
And we will include links to all of that in our show notes. You can find those at MTS g podcast.com. And come in, join us on our social media, join our Facebook group, the modern therapists group, we'd love to hear your experiences in working with Black male clients. And if you have additions and suggestions to things that work for you, we'd love to hear about those. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Allen Lipscomb.
Katie Vernoy 41:30
Thanks again to our sponsor SuperBill.
Curt Widhalm 41:32
If your practice doesn't accept insurance super bill can help your clients get reimbursed. Super bill is free for therapists and your clients can use the code SUPERBILL22. That's super bill to two to get a free month of super bill. Also you can earn $100 For every therapist you refer to super bill. After your clients complete the one time HIPAA compliant onboarding process, you can just send their super bills to claims at the super bill dot com. SuperBill will then file claims for your clients and track them all the way to reimbursement for helping your clients get reimbursed without the stress of dealing with insurance companies SuperBill can increase your new client acquisition rate by over 25%.
Katie Vernoy 42:16
The next time a potential client asks if you accept insurance, let them know that you partner with SuperBill to help your clients effortlessly receive reimbursement. Visit the Super bill.com To get started. Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
What Can Therapists Say About Celebrities? The ethics of public statements Curt and Katie chat about whether therapists should make public statements and diagnose public figures. This is our first continuing education eligible podcast, discussing the ethics of speaking out about the mental health of people in the public eye. We explore the origins of the Goldwater rule, a group of psychiatrists who purposefully broke it, and how masters level organizations address this concern. We also provide you with some ideas about how you can make this decision for yourself.
In this podcast episode we look at the ethics of modern therapists diagnosing public figures For our first continuing education worthy podcast, we wanted to address something that is becoming more and more prevalent in our field: therapists speaking out about the mental health of public figures.
What is the Goldwater Rule? * The history of the Goldwater Rule * The impact of DSM II (and the update to DSM III) * The original intention of the rule versus the current interpretation of the Goldwater Rule * Fears from the American Psychiatric Association that seems to have driven the development of (and on-going commitment to) this rule
How the Goldwater Rule (and Similar Ethical Principles) Have Shifted Over Time * Perspective from one of the original framers of the Goldwater Rule * Moving from teleological to deontological interpretations * How the internet and social media has changed the landscape * The American Psychiatric Association expanding their commitment to the Goldwater Rule, stating reasons psychiatrists should not assess * The Goldwater “Caveat” or “Principle” versus Goldwater “Rule” or even Goldwater “Doctrine” * Beyond diagnosis to restricting any comment on the behavior or mental health of a public figure * The stance on this ethic from American Psychological Association and the large Masters Level Organizations (AAMFT, ACA, NASW, and CAMFT, for example)
The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump – the Public Diagnosis of an American President * The group of psychiatrists who pushed back on the Goldwater Rule * The Duty to Warn – does it apply here? * What are the challenges of accurately diagnosing Trump? * Where expertise is helpful (and how the public can water down diagnosis)
Current Guidelines for Modern Therapists * Whether diagnosis is required for a duty to warn * The tactic of putting forward information without drawing conclusions (and why we don’t like this strategy) * Specific guidance from the professional organizations on what therapists can and cannot do * Taking special care in how one decides what they say about an individual in public settings * Using one’s professional judgement and special care
Cautions When Using Your Professional Judgment * The potential harm of discussing diagnosis on social media * Bias, cultural factors, and other information that could make an inaccurate or harmful diagnosis * Mental health stigma and other concerns related to diagnostic language (ICD-10, DSM-V) * Speaking outside of your professional expertise * Questions to ask yourself before making a public statement
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Buying Time LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we’re so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!
Once you’ve listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that’s all completed - you’ll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com.
You can find this course here: What Can Therapists Say About Celebrities? The ethics of public statements - a continuing education podcourse
Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information
CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit.
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Fact Magazine
The Goldwater Rule (Wikipedia)
Debate Article: It is Ethical to Diagnose a Public Figure One has not Personally Examined
The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President
American Psychiatric Association – statement on Goldwater Rule
Dr. Allen Dyer's website
Dr. Ben Caldwell, Psychotherapy Notes: Ethically It’s Fine to Diagnose Donald Trump
For the full references list, please see the course on our learning platform.
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Therapy with an Audience
Therapists Hater and Trolls
Therapists Shaming Therapists
Off Duty Therapist
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists ethics committee, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, lecturer in Counseling Laws and Ethics at California State University Northridge, a former Law & Ethics Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and former CFO of CAMFT. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, with a Master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from California State University, Fullerton and a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Theater from Occidental College in Los Angeles, California. Katie has always loved leadership and began stepping into management positions soon after gaining her license in 2005. Katie’s experience spans many leadership and management roles in the mental health field: program coordinator, director, clinical supervisor, hiring manager, recruiter, and former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. Now in business for herself, Katie provides therapy, consultation, or business strategy to support leaders, visionaries, and helping professionals in pursuing their mission to help others. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time has a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buying time. llc.com forward slash systems stash checklist.
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:49
Hey modern therapists, we're so excited to offer the opportunity for one unit of continuing education for this podcast episode. Once you've listened to this episode, to get CE credit, you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com register for your free profile, purchase this course pass the post test and complete the evaluation. Once that's all completed, you'll get a CE certificate in your profile, or you can download it for your records. For a current list of our CE approvals. Check out moderntherapistcommunity.com
Katie Vernoy 01:22
Once again hop over to moderntherapistcommunity.com for one CE once you've listened. Woo hoo!
Curt Widhalm 01:28
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is our first continuing education eligible podcast and we're gonna go a little bit long format today. Today we're going to be exploring an ethical issue around therapists making public statements. And this is becoming what would seemingly be more and more prevalent as more and more of us have access to things like social media outlets. But the underpinnings of a lot of this debate starts back in the 1960s with little story about Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater. Now Barry Goldwater was running for president in the 1964 election. And for those of you American history buffs, you probably know, he did not win. And this, this is partially blamed on the way that the Lyndon Johnson campaign framed Barry Goldwater, in response to Fact Magazine presented a special issue that was titled The unconscious of a conservative a special issue on the mind of Barry Goldwater. This was in response to a play on the words of Barry Goldwater's book the conscience of a conservative so what fact magazine had done is they had sent out a survey to over 12,000, psychiatrists, of whom about 2400 responded, and this was asking these psychiatrist opinions of the mental health status of Senator Barry Goldwater. The results of the survey range a little bit all over the place. About 27% of the overall people responded, said that Mr. Goldwater was mentally fit, 23% said that they didn't know enough to make a judgement, and a whole lot said things like Mr. Goldwater is a megalomaniac, paranoid, grossly psychotic, and some even offered specific diagnoses, including schizophrenia and narcissistic personality disorder.
Katie Vernoy 03:49
Oh, my goodness, that sounds pretty familiar.
Curt Widhalm 03:54
Yeah, this has come up recently, in...
Katie Vernoy 03:58
Just a little. Just a little bit.
Curt Widhalm 04:01
And part of the point of today's episode is where some of this debate has been in the last several years as far as America, how the rules have gotten to where we are, and what this means for us at this point in time. Now, a lot has been said, and we will get into this a little bit later in the episode about some of the more recent publications and recent debates in the field, including books like The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump by Therapy Reimagined speaker Bandy X. Lee and some of her colleagues. We will be discussing her later, and kind of where our responses are as a profession and some recommendations at the end of the episode. So, getting back to Barry Goldwater,
Katie Vernoy 04:50
Must we? I'm joking, I'm joking.
Curt Widhalm 04:54
So Goldwater ended up suing fact magazine and the publishers for libel based on this and Goldwater ended up winning this. Now, in the cases, Goldwater was issued $1 as compensatory damages and $75,000 in punitory damages to the publisher of that magazine, Ralph Ginsberg. And this was upheld by United States Court of Appeals in the Second Circuit, and the Supreme Court's denied a petition to review it. So, Goldwater ended up prevailing, but at the time, feeling like they have a little egg on their face of all of these psychiatrists making public statements, the American Psychiatric Association said, this is something where this might erode the trust in our professionals, and therefore our profession. We can't have this. We have a sense of urgency that we need to address this, let's take nine years to make a rule.
Katie Vernoy 06:03
Nine years for a very important role. Well at least, we can't say that they didn't think it out, take time to really consider.
Curt Widhalm 06:11
I point out a little bit of the nine years because what happened at the time is, we were under the guidance of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association's Second edition. Now, this was during a building towards the DSM three, which was going to come out several years later in 1980. But for those of us who weren't practicing back in 1964, and answering questionnaires from Fact Magazine, there was a pretty fundamental difference between the DSM two and the DSM three. And that difference was the DSM two was largely based in psychodynamic and psychoanalytic theory, which led to a lot of conjecture and potential bias in evaluating clients. With the DSM three helps move us towards today's DSMs is created more of behavioral checklist observations. And so what many of these psychiatrist were conjecturing about Mr. Goldwater is assumptions about his upbringing, assumptions about the relationships that he was having, and the underpinnings of wherever they're believed psychosis and megalomania, diagnostics and observations about him would be based out of.
Katie Vernoy 07:40
so it really switched from being based in more of a clinician theoretical orientation to what we know more at this point with the DSM 3, 4, 5, 5TR that's coming out that it moves to more of observable and behavioral criteria. Am I hearing that right?
Curt Widhalm 07:59
You are hearing that absolutely correct. And so what the DSM three allowed is, if somebody's not getting out of bed, that's a feature of depression.
Katie Vernoy 08:12
Yes
Curt Widhalm 08:13
Not based in whatever the DSM two criteria were before. Overall, as far as protecting, you know, diagnostics, making inter-rater diagnostics, a little bit more consistent. This is generally seen as a good thing.
Katie Vernoy 08:29
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 08:31
But some of the debates in the 60s and 70s, and has continued today is in the APA's interpretations of the Goldwater principle - I'm emphasizing principle here at this point - is that there's some fear that if psychiatrists are making statements about political candidates, that if those candidates win, particularly executive offices within the US federal government, there may be fear that the federal government would reduce the reimbursement rates given to (particularly) psychiatrist for their services, under things like Medicare, and Medicaid.
Katie Vernoy 09:16
So it was - there was money - money was talking here.
Curt Widhalm 09:19
Well, not necessarily any direct threats that I can find in my research about the setup of this, but there is the potential fear and who knows there may be a president that might punish particular agencies or sectors of the economy, if they are in fact elected. I don't know if that could potentially happen, but that's where the American Psychiatric Association's concerns seem to have been lying.
Katie Vernoy 09:47
And it seems like they may not have been too far off. So what was the original intention of the Goldwater principle then?
Curt Widhalm 09:58
So in some of our Research here and a lot of our conversation here right now so far as some history that is provided by the British Journal of Psychiatry article called "It is ethical to diagnose a public figure one has not personally examined". This is a debate written by John Gartner, Alex Lankford and Eileen O'Brien. Now in this, John Gardner had mentioned some personal communications that he had had with Dr. Allen Dyer, who was the last living member of the original APA ethics committee that drafted the APA Goldwater response in 1974.
Katie Vernoy 10:40
Wow
Curt Widhalm 10:41
This did lead me to looking at some more information that Allen Dyer has written and fortunately, Dr. Dyer has a blog, where he has written about the evolution of the so called Goldwater rule and ethical analysis.
Katie Vernoy 10:58
Can we put that in our show notes?
Curt Widhalm 11:00
We will include links and or references to everything that we can in our show notes. So this is from 2017 from this "Evolution of the so called Goldwater rule and ethical analysis." And from Dr. Dyer, I'm quoting here, "the first thing to appreciate about the so called Goldwater rule is that it is not a rule but rather a principle. The APA's code of ethics is the annotations applicable to psychiatry, of the AMA principle of medical ethics, which explicitly state that the principles are quote, 'not laws, but standards of conduct, which define the essentials of honorable behavior for the physician.' end quote - Much of the current discussion applies rule based legalistic thinking to a matter of professional judgment based on principle. In ethical theory, this would be a category mistake, attempting to transform a teleological end-based approach into a deontological or rule-based approach.
Katie Vernoy 12:07
Okay, ethics nerd, I was trying to follow you there. We've got teleological, and deontological. I think I'm gonna need a little bit of an explanation.
Curt Widhalm 12:18
Okay. So these are two different ways of looking at ethics and keeping this as kind of a shorter conversation because this isn't the point of the episode. But I think it helps to clarify what Dr. Dyer is saying here. Teleological is a type of consequentialist ethics. And what that means is that we need to look at the outcome of an action to determine if it was morally good or not. Whereas a deontological approach would be if there is any chance that an action could cause harm, you should not do that action.
Katie Vernoy 12:59
Okay. So if we're looking at deontological, it would be if something could be harmful, like client's in crisis in your office, need to be hospitalized? Do you drive them to the hospital or not? It sounds like a deontological deontological?
Curt Widhalm 13:18
deontologist,
Katie Vernoy 13:19
A deontologist, which doesn't sound like what it is, if a deontologist would say you should never have a client in your car, you should never drive your client to the hospital, you should never manage your client crisis alone.
Curt Widhalm 13:32
Yes, all of all of those lawyers and all of those insurance agents that would say, you know, oh, you got into an accident with with your client in the car, you are at fault for this. That is a deontological way of thinking.
Katie Vernoy 13:48
Okay, and then the teleological way would be that if you believe that you can be safe, you know this client needs to get to the hospital soon. You know, there's there's no transportation available, and it's going to be hours and hours. And this client is decompensating and needs to get to the hospital, but you have a strong relationship, you feel safe, you put them in your car, you get them over to the hospital, because the end justifies the means?
Curt Widhalm 14:15
Close and I guess maybe the the place of clarifying this is with the correct intent that if you reasonably believe that you could help this client get to the hospital and it was reasonably possible and something were bad to happen along the way - It's kind of more of the Good Samaritan approach that the intentions were correct. The the fallout of it ended up being maybe not ideal, but if there's the potential to cause good and as long as the intentions were good, you can morally judge that as good.
Katie Vernoy 14:53
Okay, but that still is sounding a little bit like the ends justify the means
Curt Widhalm 14:57
You You You are correct here - In that this is what Dr. Dyer is saying - this was - he saying that this was written as a way of saying, use your judgment. Be, you know, predictably well. This, this subcommittee said, this is teleological. This is consequential. Have some professional judgment in doing this.
Katie Vernoy 15:21
Mm hmm.
Curt Widhalm 15:23
And what has happened over the last 40 plus years is it has been interpreted through an entirely different and competing moral viewpoint that everyone seems to be taking as well "just don't do this."
Katie Vernoy 15:38
Yeah. I see the complexity, though. Because if we're looking at maybe not exactly the ends justify the means, but something where we are relying on individual professionals to have a good assessment of their motives, to have a good assessment of what the consequence would be for public diagnosis, for example. Do we feel like we can trust our professionals to make that judgment? That the consequences are sufficiently positive and being able to work in that gray?
Curt Widhalm 16:14
And what Dr. Dyer is saying is that the APA says, No, those individual people can't make that decision.
Katie Vernoy 16:24
So we're looking at people making something very concrete, black and white, that actually has a lot of gray in it, and it's supposed to be professional judgment, not this is good, or this is bad.
Curt Widhalm 16:37
Yes. Now, Dr. Dyer goes on to say the second thing to appreciate is that the Goldwater caveat - called rule and understood by many psychiatrist as an absolute prohibition - is, in fact, embedded in an affirmative obligation of physicians to society, quote, "a responsibility to participate in activities contributing to the improvement of the community and the betterment of public health." I take what Dr. Dyer is saying here, as the intention behind this was that psychiatrists should still be looking at improving the overall communities and public health that they work in, that there's an honor of being a medical professional to serving the greater good of society. And that this Goldwater caveat is that we maybe don't make diagnostics about people without evaluating them. But maybe when we feel that there is a sense of danger to somebody, we can use our professional - and in their case, medical - knowledge to be able to make communications about that.
Katie Vernoy 17:48
I'm not clear that that's what the Goldwater rule is being interpreted as now. Right. I mean, it seems like even saying anything has gotten to be taboo, according to the American Psychiatric Association.
Curt Widhalm 18:03
Oh, wait, there's more.
Katie Vernoy 18:05
Okay, okay. Keep going, keep going.
Curt Widhalm 18:09
Now, we also need to consider what the landscape of 1960s and 1970s world is as far as available information. I grew up in a part of the country at a point in my life, where, with an antenna and good weather, we could get maybe four television stations, the internet did not yet exist. Cell phones were a thing that was only imagined on the Jetsons that
Katie Vernoy 18:40
You and me both buddy, you and me both.
Curt Widhalm 18:43
This was several years after Mr. Goldwater was running for president. So the availability of information back at that time is much different than the landscape that we have today.
Katie Vernoy 18:54
Sure
Curt Widhalm 18:55
You know, I in my pocket normally carry a device that has more computing power than the first spaceships that went to the moon. Now, what I choose to do with it is make memes and send videos of cats to my wife. But I could also go and pull up videos of just about any public figure in a variety of different contexts that would allow for me as a mental health professional to at least say, yeah, what you're doing kind of looks "sus" as the kids who are using the language these days
Katie Vernoy 19:33
It's like "kind of looks what?" - suspect is that what you're saying is like for the old people in the audience, it's suspect that their your, your behavior looks suspect. All right?
Curt Widhalm 19:44
Yes. Now, in the intervening years, this is back to Dr. Dyer's blog, points out that the 2013 version of the principles and annotations preserves the original language of the 1973 version. But the 2015 APA commentary on ethics and practice takes a more administrative and specific tone. It preserves the affirmative ethical principle, better... of improving the community and betterment of public health through education and evidence based science. But says rather than offering opinions about a specific person, as the best means of facilitating public education, in some circumstances, such as academic scholarships, about figures of historical importance, exploration of psychiatric issues, for example, diagnostic conclusions. May be reasonably provided that it has sufficient evidence-base and is subject to peer review and academic scrutiny. It just means that you don't just go out as an individual and say, Here's my opinion. It needs to have a little bit of consensus here. But what the APA ethics committee did, instead, is started to reflect language that psychiatrists should not make any public statements about anybody no matter what. And this was really the beginnings of where the dangerous case of Donald Trump's how authored by Bandy X. Lee and colleagues ended up being a really big part of the debate here over the last now six years. And what the APA was seemingly trying to do is take the voice out of people saying, "hey, trust me, I'm a doctor. I know what I'm saying." And there were several questions and published across, you know, a number of different op eds, some that appeared in places like the New York Times that led to many of the professional organizations coming down more strictly on the emergence of the Goldwater rule. And this is where in March 2017, the American Psychiatric Association released a statement saying the APA remains committed to supporting the Goldwater rule.
Katie Vernoy 22:13
Ah
Curt Widhalm 22:14
And they gave three main points for the rationale of their opinion. Number one, when a psychiatrist comments about the behavior, symptoms, diagnosis, etc, of a public figure without consent, that psychiatrist has violated the principle that psychiatric evaluations be conducted with consent or authorization.
Katie Vernoy 22:35
So we're looking at consent as number one,
Curt Widhalm 22:38
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 22:38
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 22:40
Number two, offering a professional opinion on an individual that a psychiatrist has not examined, is a departure from established methods of examination, which require careful study of medical history, and firsthand examination of the patient. Such behavior compromises both the integrity of the psychiatrist and the profession.
Katie Vernoy 23:03
So that one sounds the most similar to the original intent, which is don't diagnose someone that you've not evaluated.
Curt Widhalm 23:10
Right,
Katie Vernoy 23:10
Right. Okay. And this is saying, don't do that, because it makes us look bad.
Curt Widhalm 23:18
Pretty much,
Katie Vernoy 23:19
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 23:20
And third, when psychiatrists offer medical opinions about an individual they have not examined, they have the potential to stigmatize those with mental illness.
Katie Vernoy 23:29
So we got there's no consent, it makes us look bad, and increases stigma.
Curt Widhalm 23:36
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 23:37
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 23:39
Now, turning this as maybe a question to you. You and I have both listened to a little bit of the news here in the last several years. What have you heard Donald Trump being diagnosed with?
Katie Vernoy 23:56
Malignant narcissism is one. He probably could be diagnosed with ADHD could potentially be diagnosed with psychopathy. I mean, like there's a lot of - sociopathy, like there's - which I guess is malignant narcissism, but I've heard a lot of different suggestions about what's possible.
Curt Widhalm 24:17
And I've heard some people even suggesting things like dementia on top of that, just to be clear, these are things that Katie and I have heard, we're not actually
Katie Vernoy 24:28
We're not saying they're true. We're not diagnosing in public people!
Curt Widhalm 24:34
One of the op eds in the New York Times pointed out that in order for things like narcissism to be diagnosed, if you look in the DSM and particularly where we are today, the DSM five, that one of the features for diagnostics is that it has to be disturbing to the patient's themselves.
Katie Vernoy 24:58
Hmm.
Curt Widhalm 24:59
And therefore is actually an inaccurate use of a diagnostic, let alone the means to actually arrive there. Now, as I was mentioning earlier, there are lots of ways to get indirect observations of people these days. And maybe this calls into question the diagnosis or the diagnostic criteria of personality disorders where, hey, if one of the features of a personality disorder is that they're not bothered by the fact that they have that particular personality disorder, maybe that needs to be looked at in future DSMs. Maybe we'll talk to somebody someday about that. But in response to the APA reaffirming this
Katie Vernoy 25:47
for the American Psychiatric Association
Curt Widhalm 25:49
The American Psychiatric Association, in response to a op ed, published on New York times.com on March 7 2016, called "Should therapist analyze presidential candidates" on March 14 2016, the then president of the American Psychological Association - so taking this out of the medical realm and potentially a little bit more specific to providers of more traditional therapy - president of the American Psychological Association at the time, Dr. Susan H. McDaniel, wrote response to the article on whether therapists should analyze presidential candidates. And I'll read this in its entirety because it's about three paragraphs. "The American Psychological Association wholeheartedly agrees with Robert Klitzman PhD that neither psychiatrist nor psychologist should offer diagnoses of candidates, or any other living public figure they have never examined. Our association has declined requests from several reporters seeking referrals to psychologists who would make such speculations. Similar to the psychiatrist Goldwater rule, our Code of Ethics exhort psychologists to take precautions that any statements they make to the media are based on their professional knowledge, training or experience in accord with appropriate psychological literature and practice. And do not indicate that a professional relationship has been established with people in the public eye, including political candidates. When providing opinions of psychological characteristics, psychologists must conduct an examination adequate to support statements or conclusions. In other words, our ethical codes state that psychologists should not offer a diagnosis in the media of a living public figure they have not examined."
Katie Vernoy 27:40
So just diagnosis, it sounds like it also is going further into things that might be within the realm of psychology and not diagnosis. It was saying nothing could be in your professional opinion, unless you've done a an evaluation. And then there would be confidentiality issues. So the question that I have is - it just don't talk about public figures at all?
Curt Widhalm 28:06
That seems to be where both of the APAs are going with this language. Now, according to the Wikipedia article on the Goldwater rule, it is a citation needed statement on there. As you know, we're citing our references here. And I wasn't able to substantiate this claim that Dr. McDaniel received a lot of pushback from members of the American Psychological Association about her stance and interpretation of the American Psychological Association direction and intention with this, that apparently, many members of the American Psychological Association felt that this was too specific and restrictive. And that as long as they were framing it within the characteristics of hey, I haven't evaluated this guy, but based on these statements, and these misapplication of following through on his own things, yeah, this one presidential candidate seems to have this diagnosis. But of course, they were eventually talking about the opportunity to say this about Kanye West. Now, I recognize that most of our audience are probably not psychiatrists, and most of our audience are probably not psychologists. And so I want to create kind of some space as far as where do our other professional mental health associations take stances on these kinds of things. And that would be the American Counseling Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapists, National Association for Social Workers. And Katie and my participation with the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, while a state Organization, they have 30 plus 1000 members, we generally give them a say in national discussions as well. But before we jump to more of these masters levels organizations, Katie, what are you feeling as far as - can we be talking about people publicly?
Katie Vernoy 30:16
So what I'm hearing is that you can, it's pretty clear that you should not diagnose publicly, I think the the folks who wrote The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump would disagree. But most of the time, so far, what you've talked about APA and APA, are saying don't diagnose. It seems like there's an ongoing discussion around whether we can give opinion on behavior. How are the psychiatrists and other folks about how are we analyzing that piece about... Can we talk about people in public?
Curt Widhalm 30:52
So this is going back to that British Journal of Psychiatry. And back to the point made by John Gartner. He says that you don't have to diagnose to warn, in some cases, people may use public figures as a way of educating the public about diagnostic criteria, such as narcissistic personality disorder, for example, and let readers draw their own conclusions: 'Hey, I haven't evaluated this particular candidate. These kinds of behaviors are generally consistent with narcissistic personality disorder. Once again, I haven't evaluated this person, they're not a patient of mine. Make your own conclusions.' I don't necessarily like that as a full, you know, greenlight to go ahead and do this. I think that, as you pointed out at the beginning of the episode, that there's a lot of nuance to this conversation. And as professionals, we have to foresee some of the responsibility of saying, 'I'm not gonna draw the conclusions for you, but I'm drawing the conclusions for you,' is not really good discussion of public health. But what Gartner's argument is, is that in the bottom line is many people may feel the duty to warn, and a duty to warn does not require a multi axial diagnosis. And he uses the example of someone who's bringing a gun to your house, you only need to know that somebody is bringing a gun into your house.
Katie Vernoy 32:29
Yeah,
Curt Widhalm 32:29
A diagnosis is not needed.
Katie Vernoy 32:31
When the question that I heard posed with it, or I read posed within that debate article, is that - Do we need opinions from psychological experts or psychiatric experts at all? Can we just not view it as a public as a general public? Can we not just view behavior and make our own assumptions and psychiatrists or therapists providing that expert opinion does more harm than good and isn't required?
Curt Widhalm 33:05
It's a topic worth diving into, you know, part of where seeing the public really destigmatize mental health in a lot of ways - and we've seen this reflected in our practices and the need for mental health services over the last several years - is the public is a lot more open to talking about the challenges they face. But a lot of people misdiagnose without the robust background of training of how to properly assess people. And, you know, how many people are you going to see on social media that's, you know, complained about, oh, I'm O... I'm so OCD, I need to straighten out the books on my shelf. That's not really a diagnostic of obsessive compulsive disorder and tends to diminish what actual obsessive compulsive disorder is for those who properly have that condition. It's something where leaving this discussion out into the public really allows for things to be watered down in such a way that some of these diagnostics tend to lose all meaning. So to answer your question, I think that it's healthy to have professionals with a background to be able to offer this opinion, it's a matter of how it's done that is potentially there. But so far with the information that we're seeing from the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association, is that any professional opinion about any public figure seems to be forbidden.
Katie Vernoy 34:41
So we're stuck with the experts being silenced. But then the guidance around how to actually provide expert opinions to the public seems to be a little bit limiting, at least from the two APAs.
Curt Widhalm 34:56
Yes.
Katie Vernoy 34:56
What are the master's level folks saying?
Curt Widhalm 34:59
That is an excellent question and I'm glad that you're bringing it up. Looking at the four codes of the masters level organizations. This was summarized pretty well in September of 2016 on psychotherapynotes.com by Dr. Ben Caldwell. And I'll expand on some of this because some of these things have been updated even since this blog post. But starting with the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy standard 3.11 simply requires that therapists exercise special care when making public their professional recommendations and opinions. There's no prohibition against diagnosing public figures according to AAMFT. Okay, the American Counseling Association as far as within their ethical code Standard C6C, says that counselors speaking with the media base their statements on appropriate counseling literature and practice to ensure that their statements are otherwise consistent with the ACA code of ethics, and to be clear about the nature of their relationship with those receiving the information. National Association of Social Workers - well, they talk about dishonesty and multiple standards. They also require social workers to protect client confidentiality when dealing with the media that standard 1.7K But they don't have any parallels to the Goldwater rule.
Katie Vernoy 36:38
Social workers really have no guidance at all, not very much anyway.
Curt Widhalm 36:43
CAMFT - This has been updated since Dr. Caldwell's blog here, but the CAMFT code of ethics 5.13 Public Statements, marriage and family therapist because of their ability to influence and alter the lives of others exercise caution when making public their professional recommendations, or their professional opinions, through testimony, social media and internet content, or other public statements. CAMFT also goes on to say 5.14 Limits of Professional Opinions, marriage and family therapists do not express professional opinions about an individual's psychological condition, unless they have treated or conducted an examination and assessment of the individual. Or unless they reveal the limits of the information upon which their professional opinions are based, with appropriate cautions as to the effects of such limited information upon their opinions. Now, how do you take this from the 4 master's level organizations?
Katie Vernoy 37:45
I mean, it's a little confusing to me. I think there's certainly caution that we need to take and not do this lightly, not pop off on our podcast, make sure that we're not just giving diagnosis willy nilly that we actually are cautious. Use our training, understand our training. And then also I hear- I think primarily from CAMFT but maybe from somebody other ones - that we need to make sure we put forward the limits that of information that we have, so I've not assessed this person or this is something I've not seen, but my statement is being based on this body of knowledge and this this information that I've been given. So it's a little more guidance, but it still is something where, you know, the rules... Ot just I mean, some of it feels like best judgment, which is a little bit more aligned to the the Goldwater principle. But it's it's still hard to know what's going to be in the best interest of society, of the our professions, of the individuals that are in the spot, the public, public eye that potentially are getting some of this stuff going on. Like it just feels really complex to make a decision around diagnosis or public statements.
Curt Widhalm 39:07
So in April of 2018, the American Counseling Association published an ethics update by Perry C Francis. Credited in counseling today, Perry Francis is a professor of counseling at Eastern Michigan University, and coordinator of the counseling and training clinic and the College of Education clinical suite, member of the American College Counseling Association, and he chaired the ethics revision task force that developed the 2014 ACA code of ethics. And summarizing many parts of the article, he also points to E5 of the ACA code of ethics which says, counselors take special care to provide proper diagnosis mental disorders, and dives into the discussion of what exactly is special care. And, in the description talks about that there's a list of behaviors and characteristics that make up not the entirety of a whole person. The DSM has been accused of being ethnocentric. And it's difficult to apply this to other cultures and contexts. Meanwhile, stakeholders like pharmaceutical companies welcome a growing list of diagnosable disorders and overall cautions that professionals who make real world statements might fail to take into account just the ramifications of what these statements might be saying, not only just to the public, but also to other businesses that work in mental health care. Therefore, as counselors according to Perry Francis, we need to take special care to ensure that any diagnosis is made using the most appropriate assessment techniques, including a well planned clinical interview and the most relevant instruments and tests. Part of taking that special care is taking into account the impact of culture on a client's life, including the fact that a client can live in multiple cultures. Perry Francis concludes this article by saying that the American Counseling Association has released a statement concerning publicly diagnosing the mental state of an individual. And it states in part, when publicly discussing public figures and others, professional counselors should avoid DSM and ICD related terms, especially the words diagnosis and disorder. Counselors should not attach a specific DSM or ICD diagnosis to any individual through messaging or statements in media outlets, or social media. Avoiding public statements that label an individual with a mental disorder is in the best interests of the public. This approach aligns with one of the counseling professions core professional values, as stated in the preamble of the ACA code of ethics, practicing in a competent and ethical manner.
Katie Vernoy 42:14
So that seems pretty clear to diagnosis.
Curt Widhalm 42:17
Yes,
Katie Vernoy 42:17
Right I mean, it's not about behavior. It's not saying this behavior as harmful like that's I mean, APA, both of the APAs seem to say like, Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, like anything you say about a person, a public figure is too much, whereas the at least ACA is now saying, as long as it's not a diagnosis, you're good.
Curt Widhalm 42:38
That seems that seems to be where the stance is here.
Katie Vernoy 42:42
Okay. So that's what the professional associations are saying. I mean, I don't... like I feel like we still need to talk about how someone would make these decisions.
Curt Widhalm 42:55
Well, let's take this out of the research and the publications here so far. Let's talk about, you know, what our observations of the landscape of our field is. You and I both know, hundreds, if not 1000s, of therapists at this point, many of whom were connected to on social media. We have lots of friends who are professionals who talk on podcasts and are connected in the media, some who are on TV shows, providing therapy.
Katie Vernoy 43:29
Yes,
Curt Widhalm 43:30
We see lots of people in these spaces talking about lots of things.
Katie Vernoy 43:34
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 43:34
What do you see?
Katie Vernoy 43:37
I mean, I see folks who are very open and talking about their own concerns. And so they're able to put forward their own mental health journey as an example. I see people talking about treatment between, you know, kind of how people treat each other and, and those types of things. I mean, I think the the treating someone on a TV show that feels like that's a, a demonstration of therapy with, hopefully, appropriate consents. And I don't I mean, besides our foray into having Bandy on the podcast, I've not seen someone, at least directly diagnose someone in public, I've seen people express concern about public figures or about the impact of public figures, but it feels a little bit more behavioral. And so kind of along the, this the second line, which is, you know, these behaviors are of concern, and this is why. But I don't know that I've seen a lot of the folks we know, kind of saying, like this person is a malignant narcissist. Like I don't necessarily see that - although now that I just said it out loud. I think I probably have seen that as well. How about you? What are you seeing?
Curt Widhalm 44:48
Oh, I know a lot of our listeners are, you know, maybe have the same political ideologies as you and I. Maybe they're not. Maybe they make assumptions that they are. But what I do see is that especially as there becomes more advocacy within communities around a diagnosis - people coming from, for example, ADHD community, doing more to educate people about the things that go along with having ADHD that maybe extra, outside of the things listed within the DSM. Might see this same thing with any number of other diagnostic communities that come together. And what I see is also the inverse of some of these statements. And I particularly remember a time and seeing some discussions around Elon Musk making the claim that he was the first person with Asperger's to host Saturday Night Live. This is
Katie Vernoy 45:59
Yes,
Curt Widhalm 46:00
It's been some time in the past.
Katie Vernoy 46:01
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 46:02
And many people have some opinions about this statement. And a lot of the commentary that I saw was professionals who also self identified - and I don't know, their diagnostic criteria - of being part of the Autistic community ended up feeling that either or making statements on their own social media that, hey, Elon Musk isn't one of us. Doesn't belong on the spectrum. Now, these are professionals, I don't, you know, remember, and I don't I'm not pulling them up here. But I think it's just as important to caution saying the absence of a diagnosis without evaluating somebody is potentially just as damaging or dangerous as it is that saying somebody is at a certain diagnosis.
Katie Vernoy 46:56
Now that you say that, I think there's also been an impulse, maybe impulse is the wrong word, but there's been some of the you're not, you know, you aren't representative of us, like you talked about whether it's Elon Musk, or an original poster. And then there's also in comments, well, you definitely have this diagnosis, you definitely seem depressed, or you definitely seem X. Like people offering more diagnostic, you know, beyond the like, you should talk to your therapist about this, more of a diagnostic, what you're describing in this 50, you know, 50 word post suggest to me that you must be X diagnosis. And so to me, I think we are a little fast and loose in the more casual public spaces, like social media groups, and those types of things. But I think there is an element of the inverse diagnosis that's interesting. Because I hadn't thought about it that way. Like certainly saying, hey, this person has this diagnosis, that seems pretty clear. But saying this person with a self who self identified doesn't have a diagnosis, how is that harmful but how do you say, what did you think? Why do you think that's harmful?
Curt Widhalm 48:12
We haven't presented somebody with a proper assessment ourselves to publicly comment on what their diagnosis is. If - We may not know their medical or psychological history it may be and not framing it, within the context of where you're basing that opinion is where these ethics codes are saying that that is unethical behavior. That you may only be making a snap judgment based on, you know, a few clips of a sketch comedy show. You may be incredibly biased based on the types of news outlets that you receive your information from. And particularly, you know, somebody like Elon Musk that doesn't have quite the number of televised appearances that somebody like Donald Trump might, that the limited amount of available information that you have ends up becoming where if they truly do have this diagnosis, you as a professional are making a statement that invalidates their experience. And one of the main principles of all of our codes of ethics is a stance of nonmaleficence not creating harm.
Katie Vernoy 49:33
Yeah. It's interesting because I think it's it's harder, I think, for some of our audience to be like, well, poor Donald Trump, poor Elon Musk, poor billionaires. Right. And I think, in truth, we actually need to pay attention to that because to me, they're, you know, although some people might disagree with me, they're humans too. And they, they could be harmed by the statements that are made. For most of us, I think maybe I'm putting myself too much in that. I think it's easier to, to look at this as a problem, when it's someone who is more traditionally oppressed. You know, if someone who legitimately, whether they claim it or not, has a mental health diagnosis, it doesn't prove them unfit for, for being in a public position, whether it's, you know, a government official or whatever. Like, if we, if we start making the case that they are problematic. Not only are we potentially breaking the Goldwater rule, but we're also potentially increasing stigma, as as the APA said, but we're also potentially harming the ability to have a more diverse representative pool in our legislation. We may be oppressing folks, because we've made this our job to try to protect society from folks who are mentally ill. And that feels really bad. I think the arguments against doing this in a more directed way to public figures. That's where it sits with me as appropriate. Like I, I was celebrating the The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump and I and I don't know that I would say like, Hey, that was a bad idea. But I think the precedent concerns me if we then use these types of stratagems to try to get folks either not elected or out of office.
Curt Widhalm 51:37
And bringing this back to earlier in the episode, the dangerous case of Donald Trump's pretty significant portion of that book is the arguments of the needing to step outside of the code of ethics as far as a duty to warn, that does not necessarily focus on the diagnostic criteria, but more so on behaviors that interpersonally end up feeling dangerous to people who have spent their career studying dangerous behaviors.
Katie Vernoy 52:11
Sure, and listening to Bandy speak in our conference, like she was talking about the the problem of violence. And there were specific, very public displays of incitement to violence or violence by Donald Trump that I think was potentially where she based her concern about and her duty to warn.
Curt Widhalm 52:32
And it also comes from a decade's long history of that being her particular area of study and specialty.
Katie Vernoy 52:40
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 52:41
Which is quite a bit different in a number of ways of picking a celebrity and a random page in the DSM and going through some sort of BuzzFeed type evaluation and throwing your opinion out on the internet.
Katie Vernoy 52:59
Which is kind of what the original Goldwater thing was right? It was a magazine reaching out to a whole bunch of psychiatrists who were like, "Yeah, I think he's nuts.
Curt Widhalm 53:11
Pretty much
Katie Vernoy 53:12
It was, I mean, granted, it was a pool of folks. But it sounds like you described it as all over the place. And it wasn't something where they even necessarily individually, were thinking, oh, this is going to be public record. It was more like, oh, in the aggregate, this is kind of fun. I'm anonymously, putting forward my opinion about a candidate I don't like.
Curt Widhalm 53:34
And so this does bring to the overall discussion that making public statements as viewed by any of these professional organizations, does include even your own personal social media.
Katie Vernoy 53:48
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 53:49
And there needs to be the caution. And this is really the emphatic point here. There needs to be the caution of how you're framing these statements. One of my Facebook memories said recently, was about the day that Donald Trump was inaugurated as the 45th President of the United States. And for listeners of the podcast, I think I've described before I was in a pretty serious bike accident about 10 years ago. And one of my social media posts from Inauguration Day was of the presidential limo driving down the streets of Washington, DC, solely in the bike lane. And my response, I mean, they had all the streets closed down his parade, it was not great. But yeah, my statement was, as a survivor of a pretty traumatic bike accidents, this administration is not off to a good start. Now, you obviously get the humor of this, you know, maybe even you know if you were to read too much into my statements - oh is is that trauma speaking is that, you know, that, and I'm talking about my own, you know, experiences and potential mental health here, but you got the humor out of it knowing me?
Katie Vernoy 55:13
Sure. Yes, I do.
Curt Widhalm 55:15
But it was not about Donald Trump, it was about the administration.
Katie Vernoy 55:19
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 55:20
And there is a crafting that we need to consider in making any of these kinds of statements, we're all going to have opinions about many different people. And that is fine. Your responsibility as a professional is to know that every statement that you make, that goes outside of the very privacy of your own home, which does include things that you put on the internet, can be taken as fact, as a professional who's speaking. And that opens you up to ethical and legal liabilities.
Katie Vernoy 55:57
I think that's really strong. And I think I'd like to get even a little bit more specific on some ideas around this, because to me, there's an element of public figures that we've not talked about yet that I think is important to consider. I know - and I'm sure you've had this happen too - that I will meet someone for the first time. And they say, I feel like I know you, I listened to the podcast. And we are small potatoes compared to a President of the United States. I think there's an element to us feeling like we know public figures based on how they present to the public, and the things that they do. And I think the more time you spend in public, the more of your real self shows up, I think we discount that some people play a role, arguably people will have, the more time they spend in public, the more likely they are to show their real self. But there is a version of this where Trump's acting all the time, and it is playing a role in order to get what he wants. And does that suggest, narcissism maybe. But if it's all pretend, can we really diagnose him? You know, and I think with the the limitations of the knowledge that we have, I think we have to be very cautious about what we say. We don't know someone based on a small snippet of social media, or even sometimes, our long videos of their behavior. I think we do need to be cautious of saying, Well, we have enough information, we can make this diagnosis. We have a whole episode or several episodes on people making assumptions on the internet. So we can link to some of those in the show notes as well. And so to me, I think it comes back to what information do I actually have. Making sure I discussed the limits of the information. And then I think the third thing that is really important is what is my intent. And this is, you know - for all the DBT Folks, this is getting into wise mind - and I think for those of us who are advocates, it's determining is this strategic? Is this about trying to win an election? Like it was with the Goldwater stuff? Is it about a duty to warn, because society is going down rapidly and we need to call this out and, and name it, or anything else? Like what is the actual intention? Am I angry? Am I scared? How is that impacting my judgment? I think it's something where if we just speak from a place of seat-of-my-pants, this is what I'm seeing and it's scary. And it's awful, because this person is politically different from me, I think we get very, very in a very, very dangerous territory as a society.
Curt Widhalm 58:52
To conclude all of this - I think you're summarizing it very, very well - is that for many of our professional organizations that we may belong to, at the masters level, there is not a ethical code that necessarily forbids this.
Katie Vernoy 59:11
Yeah
Curt Widhalm 59:12
You need to really be cautious about framing the information upon how you're basing your opinions. And in general, I would stop well short of, you know, leaving the trail of breadcrumbs up to a diagnosis, if you do have personal and professional concerns about somebody who may be out there and expressing this, whether you put it on your social media, or what you think is your personal social media. Most professional organizations are still going to look at that as a professional statement. That you very carefully framed the context of where you're discussing these things from.
Katie Vernoy 59:54
Yeah
Curt Widhalm 59:54
And I think that in several of these articles that we've been citing here - and we willl put the references in our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com - that what has changed since 2016, when this debate really started and why we feel that it's still a relevant discussion today, is that some of these professional organizations have clamped down even harder in the last few years.
Katie Vernoy 1:00:24
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 1:00:24
And some of the information that's available out there or pops up to the top of your search engines is not necessarily the most up-to-date information. It's important to understand the historical context that where professional organizations are today is not where they started back when the Goldwater principle was first suggested. Some of these articles now we're calling it the Goldwater doctrine, without necessarily putting it into any sort of ethical rigor to move things from a guiding principle to a absolute gag rule. So our recommendation is, for most of you it's not forbidden to make public commentary. But really, really make sure that you frame any sort of statements or exaspirations or social media posts in ways that really frame how you are coming to your conclusion and what your relationship (or lack there of) is to the person that you're talking about. We would love to hear your thoughts on this. You can let us know on our social media or in our Facebook group, the modern therapist group, you can find our Show Notes and references at mtsgpodcast.com. And stay tuned for more information on how to get continuing education for listening to this podcast. Until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 1:02:02
Just a quick reminder, if you'd like one unit of continuing education for listening to this episode, go to moderntherapistcommunity.com purchase this course and pass the post test. A CE certificate will appear in your profile once you've successfully completed the steps.
Curt Widhalm 1:02:17
Once again, that's modern therapist community.com
Katie Vernoy 1:02:21
Thanks again to our sponsor Buying Time
Curt Widhalm 1:02:24
Buying Time's VAs support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly with a full team of VAs gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available.
Katie Vernoy 1:02:53
book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need. That's buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation once again, buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation.
Curt Widhalm 1:03:08
Hey everyone, Curt and Katie here. If you love this longer form content and would like to bring the conversations deeper, please support us on our Patreon. For as little as $2 per month we're able to bring you more content, exclusive offerings and more opportunities to engage in our growing modern therapist community. These contributions help us to expand our offerings for continuing education events and a whole lot more.
Katie Vernoy 1:03:33
If you don't think you can make a monthly contribution no worries we also have a Buy Me a Coffee profile for one time donations. Support us at whatever level that you can today it really helps us out. You can find us at patreon.com/MTSGpodcast or buy me a coffee.com/modern therapist. Thanks everyone.
Announcer 1:03:54
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Working with Trans Clients: Trans Resilience and Gender Euphoria An interview with Beck Gee-Cohen, MA CADC-II, about how therapists can be better clinicians for trans people. Curt and Katie talk to Beck about gender identity (and why every therapist should do their own work around gender), historical perspectives on masculinity and femininity, the concepts of trans resilience and gender euphoria, the real problems with the DSM diagnosis of gender dysphoria and considerations for providing therapy to trans clients.
Interview with Beck Gee-Cohen MA CADC-II Director of LGBTQ+ Programming Beck is a master’s level clinician with an undergraduate degree in Sociology with an emphasis on Gender & Sexuality and a master’s degree in Addiction Counseling. Beck has worked in the mental health & substance use field for over 10 years in various capacities. The main focus of his work has been invested in the LGBTQ+ community, adolescents, and families. Over this decade, Beck has trained numerous facilities on LGBTQ+ best practices, has been a keynote and presenter at many conferences, and has facilitated workshops about LGBTQ+, trauma, adolescents, gender and sexuality. Beck is the Director of LGBTQ+ Programming at Visions Adolescent Treatment Center. This program is for young people at Visions who identify in the community, those who are questioning, and their families. It includes process groups, psychoeducation, and family programming with professionals specifically trained and experienced in the LGBTQ+ population and best practices. Alongside the already dynamic team at Visions Adolescent Treatment Center in Los Angeles, young LGBTQ+ people and their families will find a space that serves their specific needs in regards to healing and thriving.
In this podcast episode we talk about trans mental health We invited Beck Gee-Cohen, MA CADC-II to come talk with us about providing therapy for trans individuals.
Modern therapists need to keep learning when working with trans clients * Getting pronouns correct is a basic expectation at this point * Finding the balance between focusing on a client’s trans identity and other elements of their identity and experience * Understanding trans identity 101 is a basic level of knowledge that all therapists should have * What you do need to learn from your trans clients * Therapists need to do their own work around gender
The work that therapists must do around gender
“Sexuality and gender should be discussed across the board for everyone” – Beck Gee-Cohen, MA CADC-II
- The role that society plays in defining gender and the binary
- The privilege cis folks have in not being asked to assess/address their gender
- “Women’s” and “men’s” issues
- Societal expectations related to gender
- The history of gender expression and how what is acceptable has shifted
- Cultural and generational differences related to gender
The Concept of Trans Resilience
“I came out as an act of survival” – Beck Gee-Cohen, MA CADC-II
- The tendency to focus on the pain of being trans
- The bias and hate that trans folks face, and how they continue to show up
- The importance of celebrating who you are as a trans person
- “You’re so brave” doesn’t see the full picture
- How hard it is to show up – and what it means that trans folks continue to do so
- Moving away from just focusing on gender dysphoria versus looking at gender euphoria
Gender Dysphoria versus Gender Euphoria and the problems with the DSM
“You don’t have to hate yourself to be trans. That’s actually a false narrative given to us by the DSM... I’m not dysphoric about my gender. Everyone else is dysphoric about my gender... so the gender dysphoria is actually internalized.” – Beck Gee-Cohen, MA CADC-II
- How the DSM is used for the medical needs of trans folks
- The problem with assigning the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria to an individual
- Internalized gender dysphoria (it is not my dysphoria, it is the dysphoria of the people around me about my gender)
- Playing around with gender shouldn’t be a diagnosis, it is so culturally bound
- Trans individuals have to know what to report so they can get hormones (i.e., they may have to lie about being dysphoric in order to “check the boxes”)
- The problem with gatekeeping and the hope that trans folks being in work groups to help shift these guidelines
Better Therapy for Trans Clients * Therapeutic alliance is the most important * How therapists can appropriately use vulnerability when a client comes out as trans * The likelihood of someone coming out initially versus after trust is built and how to handle it * Sharing the therapeutic process and how you will learn and educate yourself * The problem of signaling that you are capable of working with LGBTQ+ people when you are not trained * Awareness of how being trans impacts the client in front of you * When the client is coming into therapy due to their gender identity * Understanding the back story and how someone identified that “something is different” * Looking at what they want to do next (which may be very little or a full plan on how they handle being trans).
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Buying Time LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Bgcbridge.com
beck@bgcbridge.com
Tiktok: transandtrying
Tiktok: visionsteen
WPATH – Standards of Care guidelines
Alex Iantaffi: Gender Trauma and Life Isn’t Binary
My New Gender Workbook: A Step-by-Step Guide to Achieving World Peace Through Gender Anarchy and Sex Positivity by Kate Bornstein
Dara Hoffman-Fox: You and Your Gender Identity: A Guide Book
Two Spirits, One Heart: A Mother, Her Transgender Son, and Their Journey to Love and Acceptance by Marsha Aizumi and Aiden Aizumi
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Interview with Dr. Abigail Weissman: Vulnerability, The News, and You
When is it Discrimination?
Work Harder Than Your Clients
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the modern therapist Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying time has a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buying time llc.com forward slash systems stash checklist.
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:49
Welcome back monitor therapists. This is the button therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that talks about things that therapists do things that come into our offices, things that we should be aware about. And we are coming to a topic that we haven't visited here for a couple of years. And we are joined by one of our former therapy reimagined speakers, Beck Gee Cohen, Director of LGBT programming at visions, and we're just so glad to have you good people. Thanks for joining us.
Beck Gee Cohen 01:27
Awesome. Thanks for having me. I'm super grateful to be here.
Katie Vernoy 01:30
We're so excited to have you. It's so good to see you again. And I had a wonderful consultation with you recently. So I just am excited to share this conversation with our audience. Such a good resource, everyone. So anyway, I'll stop gushing. The first question we ask everyone is who are you? And what are you putting out to the world?
Beck Gee Cohen 01:53
Which is like the deepest question you could ask. Right from the start? Who am I? What am I putting out to the world. Hope for my community, the trans community to get the things that they need, you know, from therapists to to be heard, to be seen, to be valued. And it started by trying to give a voice to myself, and now you know, to help teenagers to help families.
Curt Widhalm 02:22
We normally start a lot of our episodes asking for learning purposes, what therapists get wrong in working with trans clients. And we say this in a way of helping us catch up to where the world is today and responding to the clients in our offices. And a lot of things end up being out-dated, and especially for those of us who were educated A while ago, things have changed since maybe we have had some basic learning steps. So what a therapist normally get wrong, or what are some old habits that you see,
Beck Gee Cohen 02:57
The worst thing that we could do is this is the way we've always done it. Right. This is how it's always been. And that's what I love about the modern therapist, Psych podcast and the you know, that the, you know, the, the essence of the modern therapist is we're tired of this, right? We're tired of doing the way it's always been done, you know, the foundations of therapy were built, you know, on white cisgender men, you know, and and we're not, that's not who we are, that's not who we serve. And so I think what we what therapists get wrong is is just stopping learning, not being open to new ideas, I think, and I mean, I can go, you know, I could go down the line of like, okay, great, like use the right pronouns. Okay, so like, everyone should be doing that by now. Right? Like, that's, that's like 10 years ago, I don't mean to sound snarky in that way. Because that is, that is something that is like a huge, like thing to do, right. But don't always look at like a person by their pronouns, either. Right? Like, don't, it's, it's like, we're missing out on like, the people in front of us and more, either overly looking at the trans piece, or we're like, minimizing it. So it's like, it's finding that balance. So sometimes I run into therapists who, like, everything that has to do with them is about them being trans, right? And it's like, no, like, we also have depression and anxiety and have relationship issues. And we have, you know, all the struggles that, that all of humanity goes through. And, and then also, there's the other side of the kind of pendulum that says, Well, I work with all people and then being trans doesn't matter, you know, and it's like, okay, but you're not understanding that some of these things that are struggles that they're having, absolutely has to do with their gender identity and absolutely have to do with their transition or you know who they are in the world. So, I run into therapists that are like kind of one or the other Right, and so like my job and what I like to do, and the conversations that I like to have is like, let's bring us into the kind of the center, and talk about how we can Yeah, invest our time into their gender and understand it and understand, but not have to learn about gender and sexuality from them, but learn about their gender and sexuality, their personal gender and sexuality from them understanding trans identity, a 101, that is a therapist job, right to learn outside of their client, the nuances of gender, the nuances of, of what's happening in their lives, we do learn from our clients, going in with curiosity, and conversation and humility is really important. I see a lot of therapists run away from working with trans people, because they just don't know, while I believe in referring out, there's not enough like clinicians out there that are working with trans people, I always like to say, part of my story is saying that the woman that saved my life, when I came out to her was a therapist who was really versed in trauma, and really versed in understanding the LGBT community, but she was not part of that community. And she saved my life. And so, you know, so I think that what therapists are getting wrong, just not not doing their own work. And I also like, like to challenge therapists to do their own work around their gender and sexuality. Because if we're not doing that work, then how are we supposed to even understand some of the things that we struggle with, with masculinity with femininity, and many trans people struggle with that stuff as well, non binary people struggle with that as well. I hate to say that you're getting it wrong, but what can you do better, right? Curt? No, I'm just kidding. I told you, I was gonna come from a place of positivity today, I'm going going into 2022, with a little positive skepticism.
Katie Vernoy 07:09
So you started talking about this, and I want to get a little bit more specific with one of the things that you had talked about, you know, kind of all clinicians need to be better for trans clients, because trans clients are going to show up on our practice at some point, most likely. And so I think, to me, when you're talking about therapists not doing their own work on gender, let's let's start with that one. I think that society doesn't necessarily ask that of us. You know, there's, there's a binary, you know, there's pink and blue, there's these things that I think society really puts on us. And I think this idea of really exploring our own gender identity and sexuality and all those things, especially I'm, I'm old, you know, so, you know, when I grew up, it was pink and blue, you know, and all of that. And so I think it's something where, to me? What do you mean, when you're talking about that therapists need to work on their own gender and those issues?
Beck Gee Cohen 08:15
I love that question. Because I think you're right, like, right, it's a privilege to not have to think about gender.
Katie Vernoy 08:21
Absolutely.
Beck Gee Cohen 08:22
Right. So when you're walking in the world, and you don't have to think about it, it's, you know, that's a privilege that you have. And I think we actually think about it more than we think we do. And I see, it's in our face, constantly. And I but I also do think like, once you're aware of it, right? I think there's an old parable about the goldfish, right in the water. They go, you know, the goldfish swims out and says, Hey, how's the water? And they're like, what's water? You know, like, they don't know that they're, you don't know you're in it until you know that you're in it, right. So I don't know how that parable goes. But something like that. Y'all can look it up. But I'm not aware until I'm aware is basically what it is. And so, so that's why I also, like give a lot of leeway to a lot of therapists and people that I work with, where I'm not like, you should know this, because sometimes you just have no awareness. But once you know, then it's your job to kind of start working on it. So like, I had a therapist come up to me a year after I did a talk. And he was like, you know, you really messed me up. And I was like, Oh, great, you know, what did I do? And he said, Now everywhere I go, I see male and female sides. You know, I see male female girls, boys, you know, pink and blue. Like it was just, I was unaware. And I was like, great. Now you know how I live and many other people live every single day. But we talk about like women's issues and men's issues a lot. Right? And, and sometimes even then we're not even actually aware of that. that actually affects us, right? So when I'm working with like a cisgender, man, so for those, you know, when I say cisgender, it's someone who is assigned, let's say, male at birth, and identifies their gender identity as male sis means to be on the same side of so most people are cisgender. But when I talked to cisgender men, I asked them about masculinity, and being a man, and what is that like for you? And if we actually start having the conversation and dialogue about what it is to be a man in the world, you're going to get a whole lot of different conversations, right? You're gonna have a different opinions, different, you know, boxes, you know, men are put in a specific box to attain, you know, like, I have to be this way or that way, right. Same thing with women. And so that's the work that I ask of therapists to do is like, let's, let's, what is what does femininity mean to you? What does being a woman mean to you in the world? What is how has that affected you growing up? What did you learn about? You know, you just said, like, you know, I'm old and I grew up with pink and blue, right?
Katie Vernoy 11:09
Sure. Yeah.
Beck Gee Cohen 11:10
You know, but if you were older, even older, and grew up in the, you know, 1700s, you know, 1800s, you know, Pink and Blue were different. Pink was more masculine, Blue was more feminine.
Katie Vernoy 11:22
Oh, interesting
Beck Gee Cohen 11:23
Men wore wigs and heels and makeup. And that was a sign of class, right. And so, and the ideas of like, boys clothes and girls clothes for children really came from a marketing ploy where people were having less children. Because if you actually look at like pictures of like, Franklin, Franklin Roosevelt, they were wearing all white, all kids were white, and dresses until they were a certain age, right? So it was a money saver for families who had giant families of 16 kids. Now, you know, in the early 1900s, you know, the history of it, is that people are having less kids. And so then they started being like, Oh, girls, clothes, boys clothes, you know. So if we start to learn the history of that, and we start to learn that, like, clothing doesn't have a gender makeup doesn't have a gender. And we start to learn how I was raised to see what femininity looks like, and what masculinity looks like. Because in a lot of different cultures, too, it looks differently. So that's the work if I look internally, and then if I can look internally and at myself, it's just like, you know, every therapist should have a therapist, right?
Katie Vernoy 12:33
Yeah!
Beck Gee Cohen 12:33
.. is that if I start with, note that everyone, you can start to empathize with how difficult these things might be, for a client that is in is it was questioning their gender or transitioning. And you may not know, someone is trans when they come in your office, and you build a rapport with them, and you build a therapeutic alliance, and then they come out to you. Right, and they feel that they trust you. You know, that is your job to continue to work with that. And you can work with them. As long as you you know, maybe you need to seek supervision or whatever. But I think therapists can really do a lot of work on themselves around gender, even if they they're not trans. Right. I think it's funny because we only talk about like sexuality and gender when it comes to the LGBT community. We're actually like, sexuality and gender should be talked about across the board for everyone. I think we would we'd serve us as as therapists and as the world as a whole,
Curt Widhalm 13:34
when we sent over the what should we talk about questionnaire to you, you dropped in this term trans resilience? Can you tell us what that is? And how that plays out? With our clients.
Beck Gee Cohen 13:47
Sometimes we focus in on the pain of transition a lot. Right? As therapists we concentrate on anxiety and depression, all the hard things, right?
Katie Vernoy 14:02
Yeah.
Beck Gee Cohen 14:03
Why do people go to therapy? Do people go therapy when they're super happy, you know, but, but at the same time, I think when I when I talk about trans resilience, and they talk about how we can celebrate identity in the therapeutic space, I think this is a really important piece to helping our clients celebrate themselves and empowering themselves and trans resilience to me means that, you know, we walk through the world, and we walk through all of this stuff that we do, and we we, you know, we get misgendered and we walk through all the messages that say we shouldn't be here, but we still show up every day. And we still are present in our lives or we try to be and we still show up to therapy, we still show up. And we and I keep saying show up because it's sometimes it's so hard to show up. And so To foster that, and to like, empower my clients who are trans is like really like celebrating them and celebrating who they are, and, and walking in their truth and walking in their authenticity. A lot of times people will say, Oh, you're so brave for doing this. I don't Thank you. Right? Like, I think, no, thank you. Right. And I know where that comes from. And I also know that like, I came out, because it was like an act of survival. Like, I run out of a burning building, like I was running out of a burning building. Is that brave? No, that's like, I'm trying to survive.
Katie Vernoy 15:41
Yeah,
Beck Gee Cohen 15:41
you know, I think bravery is really like going back in and getting people and pulling them out. Right? Bravery is like, you know, showing up again, every day and helping others and all those things. So that mean, I think therapists are brave, right? But for me, it was an act of survival. And so when I talk about resilience is really talking to my clients about, like, you know, you show up every day, you know, as hard as it is you keep showing up and with suicidality, and suicide rates so high in the trans community, you know, for those who are able to survive, I think it's, I think it's really important. And I think it's also really important to like, celebrate, and, like, enjoy being trans, you know, I mean, I'm constantly like, asking them, you know, we're talking about dysphoria all the time. And I'm like, where's your euphoria? You know, when you feel good this week? When did someone like make you feel like, you know, when did you like, go put that dress on? Or, or, or get gendered correctly? Or like, like, hold on to those moments, too, because that feels good. When did you look in the mirror? And we're like, damn, I look good today. You know, like, I feel good in my body. I think therapists you know, sometimes will so hyper focus on like, oh, you you have to hate yourself to be trans. Like you actually don't. Yeah, actually don't like that's that's a that's a false narrative that has been given to you by the DSM.
Katie Vernoy 17:09
Yeah, I think I want to actually like there's so many things I want to go into here. But I think one of the the pieces that feels really compelling to me is this idea of this notion, and you're calling it gender dysphoria, then gender, euphoria, we've heard that as well before, but I think there's this notion of hating yourself feels like it is already coming from a cis place, a cisgender place, that the self is defined by whatever gender you were assigned at birth. And so talk a little bit more about your feelings about the DSM, because you started to go there.
Beck Gee Cohen 17:52
I went there,
Katie Vernoy 17:53
I just am curious about how you look at it, because I think most of what we do is based on what society deems normal, and it's so culturally bound, I loved when you were talking earlier about how gender has been perceived through the years, because I think we feel like well, this is just what it is. And it's like, well, no, actually, it's completely culturally defined if we really look at it. But anyway, it's early, where I'm going all over the place. So let me get to the question. How do you think the DSM harms our efforts toward treatment? Because it seems like it's framed improperly.
Beck Gee Cohen 18:28
Yeah. Well, so if I look at like, so again, this is just my opinion, not the opinion of all trans therapists, we're looking at two things here, right? That the, the DSM in and of itself helps people like having dysphoria as like a, as a diagnosis can help us get hormones and all those things, which is like, you know, if you're not in an informed state, right, like, you can at least go to the doctor and get your medical needs met. So dysphoria, and you actually actually said it, in what you what you were just talking about is that dysphoria is actually not mine. If I actually look at the myself, like, I am not dysphoric around my gender, everyone else is dysphoric around my gender, right, like, so it the gender dysphoria is actually internalized. And if I look at like, you know, gender dysphoria from the DSM, it actually says the stressors from the outside in, right? And so it's like, So, am I really dysphoric um, I'm in my internalizing the gender dysphoria that people have placed on my gender, you know, and so, it can be a hard concept to talk to teens about to talk to even adults about because they, like it gets so set on like, No, I'm dysphoric and I have dysphoria, and I chew you know, I struggle with that. But the more I I have this conversation, the more I even dive internally, it's like, actually, I'm Just internalizing that dysphoria. And so then I feel depressed and anxious because I can't get a job because I'm seeing in the world is a freak. And you know all the things, right? I'm told that I shouldn't, you know, play sports, or legislation against me says I can't play sports, things like that, right? So I'm internalizing everyone else's stuff. Like when I talk about dysphoria, it's like, well, what, what are you actually dysphoric about? Right? Yeah, what's, what do you actually dysphoric about? Well, I want to change my body. Well, a lot of people want to change their body, and they're not diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Like, you can go to a plastic surgeon and get whatever you want done. But you're not diagnosed with dysphoria, or any diagnosis, really, I'm not depressed, because I'm trans I'm, I can also just be depressed. I can have depression, if you actually look at the DSM dysphoria in children and adolescents, right? We're already talking about boys and girls toys, there's already like this, like, thing around like, you know, gendered toys in they're already like, these societal cultural stereotypes that are put into the DSM. And so it's like, children should be allowed to play with gender, and play, everyone should be allowed to play with gender and, and be who they are. It shouldn't be like a diagnosis. What we see here is that we also see, I talked to a lot of parents, and they say, Well, my kid wasn't playing with dolls when they were younger. So there's no way that they could be a girl. Right? Right. And so it attaches, again, like, this gender roles is, you know, stereotypes on to a child, and then it's like, you know, do I have to like dresses and all these things in order to be a girl? Or do I have to play with trucks to be a boy? It's like, well, no, not necessarily. Right? So it just, I think we get so honed in on, like, the diagnosis, that we forget the person. And I think that happens a lot in the DSM, we're just so hyper focused, and in order to get insurance to cover it, or whatever. So yeah, we're like, Okay, do you do check all the boxes? And if you don't, right, then maybe you're not. And so what I've run into with a lot of like, even young people, I mean, it's amazing what you can find out there on the internet, young people know exactly what they need to come in with to share what they need, you know, and, and people know, like, so if I'm not depressed around my gender, so then I have to go into a therapist, and I have to lie, to get hormones, right. And I have to say, Well, I'm depressed, but I'm not depressed. I'm not. I'm not too depressed. Because if I'm too depressed, then you're not going to give me my hormones. If you're too if I'm too anxious, or if I'm feeling you know, I'm having suicidal ideations, then, you know, maybe I need medication, I don't need hormones, right? So I'm gonna lie to you about actually, like, how bad I'm feeling or how good I'm feeling because I need to hit that middle ground. And so you're already starting off the therapeutic relationship in a lie?
Katie Vernoy 23:18
Yeah.
Beck Gee Cohen 23:18
How do you build something from there? So if I take myself out of a gatekeeping role, right, if I tell a client, like, I'm not here to tell you who you are, you know who you are, right? I'm not here to tell you who you are. I'm here to like walk you walk through, you know, because I believe in therapy. Don't get me wrong. Like, I believe in the power of therapy. I don't believe in it to to gate keep for certain things for telling someone who they are. Right. But I definitely believe in walking through with someone through the changes and shifts that they're gonna happen through their transition. That's a big deal. But if you're starting off, like, with a client just having to lie to you, because they just want a letter from you. It's like, well, that's, that's not okay. You know, that's,
Katie Vernoy 24:07
it's not therapy
Beck Gee Cohen 24:08
person. It's not therapy. It's it's not at all, and it's actually super harmful. And I've seen it harm a lot of people in that way.
Curt Widhalm 24:17
Speaking of letters and organizations, that gate keep, I know that one of the resources out there that people point to in working with trans clients and especially maybe the first times that they're working on transplants, is Wpath. And there's some guidelines there that I understand that you're part of some some groups working on some making some changes over there, too.
Beck Gee Cohen 24:43
Yeah, so there's some work groups that are changing some of the Wpath guidelines for teens and so there's like working groups of actual trans identified providers, which you know, Wpath has, over the years been primarily cisgender people kind of, again, implementing certain guidelines, which, in effect have been helpful, you know, over the years, but I think as we just as, like, we get to understand gender, and as it works in the world, right, we have to shift and move things. And, and, and just as it's been over the years, you have these really great, amazing people who are allies and who are trying their best. And like, you also have to now have people at the table who are actually, you know, part of this community, and now that there are more providers, more doctors, that are trans identified nurses, therapists, you know, they're actually bringing more of us on into the conversation. And so, you know, I told Curt before this, I don't want to, you know, I had some, like, really strong, you know, like opinions, but now like, it's like, okay, well, yes, of course, right? Like, no, I mean, all this any kind of legislation, any kind of like licensure stuff, like trans people were never at the table. So now that we are kind of stepping up into these spaces, I think we're going to start to see some great changes happening, hopefully, you know, fingers crossed some changes in how care is given to trans clients, across the board medically, because, you know, Wpath is like mental health, medical, you know, treatment, all of these things. And, and people do go to it, and it's almost like, you know, well, this is, and it's taken, I think people who are like, well, this is not, this isn't still isn't right, right, this still isn't right, there still needs to be some changes happening. And so bringing in trans people with experience, I think, is really, really important and valuable. So still go to WPATH still go to, you know, get those guidelines, that should be like, kind of foundational, and if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't, you know, like, if it does, it's like, this feels a little gatekeeping, right, this sounds a little bit like, you know, like, these kind of hard lines, like, Oh, you have to, you know, you know, it used to be like you have to live as, you know, the opposite gender for a year, you know, in order to get hormones, and you're just like, what, what is that? You know, what is that about? Like, those kind of guidelines, now, we've kind of stepped away from it, but I will still hear that I will still hear therapists using those old antiquated kind of markers of like, being trans, like, you know, because there's not one way to be trans, there's not one way to like, walk in the world, right? Not all trans people want surgery, not all trans people want hormones, you know, that's not all people want to live, like, like as like the opposite. Right? Like, you know, we all lie somewhere somewhere in the middle, some of us so.
Katie Vernoy 27:52
So stepping out a little bit, because I think there's some nuance to what you're talking about. But I do know that there are some folks that this may be one of the first stepping stones for them learning about how to work with trans clients. And so maybe just to a very brief because I think people need full on training, and will definitely give you a chance to talk about the trainings that you do, because I think that would be a really good start. And there's, you know, lots of great resources for letters and all the things but if someone is a general therapist, and they they don't spend specialized and trans clients, and they have a trans client walk into their office, first off, get supervision, get training, all that stuff. But is there anything because you know, you're not going to necessarily know tell? You know? And so, what are some advice that you have for for, for clinicians, whose clients who they've been working with for quite some time, come out,
Beck Gee Cohen 28:47
I still believe in that therapeutic alliance is the number one thing for any relationship, if you do that, so there's there's two different there's two different like, I think, scenarios here, there's the one where the transplant just comes in, right from first time to like, one that you've been working with for a long time. So we'll start a long time one, and that you start, like having this conversation and I think that there's a really valuable tool called vulnerability that therapists can use in the space where they say, I haven't had a whole lot of experience working with trans clients before or around gender and, you know, I, you know, and thanking them for, like, coming out, you know, to you, right, because ultimately, you have built that trust because people don't just, like, come in and be like, I'm trans, you know, like, first I mean, maybe that's a like, I did that, but I knew that she had worked with transplants before so, but I just needed to say it out loud, but I think like, it's pretty rare. Um, I think people like wanna, like feel it out a little bit, right and kind of see how they're, how you're gonna respond. And and so obviously you'd become that trusted person, so even thanking them, you know, in some way, and then, and then doing the work around it and kind of saying, like, you know, I, I don't have a whole lot of experience, but I'm, I'm so willing to learn, and I'll learn outside of here. And I will ask questions. And if you don't want to answer them, like, I will find out other ways, you know, and just sharing like your process, I think it's a big, I think, if I were a client, and someone said that, to me, as a trans person, I would feel more connected to my therapist, than someone just assuming that they knew everything, and then being like, you actually don't know, right, or walking into a therapy room for the first time, and someone has like a rainbow flag up, and has no idea how to work in the LGBT space, right, because they got a rainbow sticker that they said that they should have on their wall to show that they work with diverse clients, you know, like, I mean, like, you know, we see that a lot. And I think that that is that can be dangerous, because like I let my walls down, because I'm looking for safety. So I may let my walls down, and then then find out like, oh, you actually have never worked with a transplant before. And you actually have no training. And so, so if you, like were a therapist, and you had a client just walk in the door and say that they were trans, you know, that's a conversation that either you're gonna have to have with a supervisors, and also, again, being honest from the start and saying, I've never worked with transplants before, but I have some training. And I Oh, you know, and I'll, you know, seek that out. And I think a lot of us, for those of us who are trans seek out therapists, like, I'm going to, I don't automatically seek out trans therapists, like trans identified therapist, probably because I know all of them personally, in some way, shape, or form. So it makes it tough. And I'm in that space right now. Um, but I'm looking for, you know, like, I will, you know, I will ask questions of like, Have you worked with trans clients before? Are you part of the LGBT community if they do choose to disclose or not, they don't necessarily have to be part of that. But I want to know what kind of, you know, if they've ever worked with, with a trans client before, but that's me, but I also ask if they've ever worked with clinicians, as well, because that's a whole nother
Katie Vernoy 32:27
Yeah, that's a whole other dynamic. We are getting short on time. So I want to, I want to just comment on something and get a couple more thoughts from you, I think there's this element of, you may have a client come in either in the process with you either come out for the first time, or kind of identify that for themselves for the first time, I feel like there's so much to talk about there. And then there are also clients who are trans and that's not what their issue is. And I think there's so there's different elements of what we would need to know, when someone comes in and they are trans and the issue isn't about their gender identity, it sounds like this awareness is important and being able to understand the impact that it may have on what's going on. And I think that's, that's fairly well in the wheelhouse of the therapists, especially as they are able to get consultation and make sure that they're, they're kind of there with them and understanding the person in front of them and that the issues they're facing when someone comes out or is in the process of identifying for themselves, their gender identity. And that process, I think that can be very confusing for folks, especially with a hard bias against, you know, kind of what we went back going back to life, the gender dysphoria, and even just the angst that can be coming through as the identification or the understanding, I am trans. And so can you talk a little bit about that process of the kind of understanding kind of the introspection, the kind of identifying for the individual, as well as how therapist can support trans clients as they identify and come out and potentially even transition because that seems like that's very specific to the gender identity whereas other things are informed you know, it's it's gender identity informed it's other issues, but it's gender identity and form. This is it's about gender identity,
Beck Gee Cohen 34:25
when a specific client is is coming in specifically around their gender identity like this is this is the the pressing struggle at this point in time that that I'm you know, is is obviously getting the whole story around because, you know, some people are in relationships, right, some people are in, you know, I mean, I come from obviously a wider lens of like the sociological piece of a person like all of these things and, and really diving into their fears, right diving into, like you said, they kind of they're there, because they've already been thinking about it. Like, this has been something that has been brewing for a while someone just doesn't usually just wake up one day and be like, Yeah, I'm trans, right. Like, I mean, this is something. And I like to get that backstory, I like to ask people when they first kind of knew something was different, right? Like, you know, it could be a year ago, it could be six months ago, it could be 10 years ago, right. And when they first maybe even talked about it to someone, you could be the first person they are talking to about it, right? And so let's say, you know, they knew when they were five, and now they're 30, that's 25 years of kind of unraveling of like, you know, what, you know, what has been going on? For them? I think the first question my therapist asked me when I told her that I was trans, which I, which I, you know, so appreciate. And I go back to, even as a clinician is like, okay, cool. So what do you want to do about that? Sounds like, which sounds it's so her right? It was like, I was like, what, you know, like, like, what do you know, because you've obviously been thinking about this. So like, we'll deal with all that, that unraveling of the history and all that stuff later. But like, How can I be present for you now? Like, what is it that you are looking for right now? Like, are you looking to get on hormones? Are you looking to get top surgery, you know, like or whatever. Like, for me, it was like, I knew I wanted to get top surgery, I did not know I wanted to go on hormones. That was like, so far, like, it was like a lot for me to think about, but I knew exactly what I wanted one thing. It's just like, cool. Let's start there. Right? We don't have to make it like, I think we also get overwhelmed with like, what if I say the wrong thing, right? Like, what if I, what if I, what if I screw this up? And but it's just like, it's almost like goal setting. Like, okay, great. Like, what do you see for yourself, because a lot of trans people don't even aren't even, they're so focused on like, the history and like, the present, like, the fear and the anxiety that, that I couldn't even see myself in the future. So to be able to, like, be present, and then look forward, was really empowering. Like, oh, I can do this, right? Like, right, yeah, it scares the shit out of me. But excuse my language, but like, I'm also like, but, but I can see that I can see that there might be a future for me here. And so I you know, kind of kind of, in that, in that in that respect, that's like a celebratory way of thinking and, and then we can get dive into the introspection, we can dive into the struggles of, of what it is to be trans in the world and all those things. But like, if we give it a moment and ask, really just kind of asked, like, what do we want to do here? Like what to do with this information? Do we want to move forward? Or do we want to focus on like, the hows and whys and then giving like, you know, sometimes we give readings, sometimes we give, but most people that come in who are who are talking about their gender, they've already been researching, they have already been, like watching YouTube videos, they've already been having this conversation internally, they just need to, like, get it out, and like have a place to like, get it out, and they may not have any movement, maybe they just want to talk about it in the room. Maybe they have no idea what they want to do. And it's like, that's great, too. But this is a space where you can, we can acknowledge that sometimes it's the only space where I'm using the name and pronouns that they want to use for the first time. Right? Like, I've used that space for helping people come out to their loved ones. Right, I came out to my best friend in my therapy, and with my therapist, actually came into town and I'm like, you're going to come to therapy with me. And she allowed that space for me to come out, you know, to the person that I love the most, you know? And so, like those are the things that we can do as therapists.
Katie Vernoy 39:12
I love that.
Curt Widhalm 39:14
If people are looking forward to a future with you and your training where can they find out more about you and follow you?
Beck Gee Cohen 39:26
Oh, I was thought this was a proposal Curt. Um... Oh was like okay. So you can find me at my website BGC bridge calm. I offer consultation and trainings and things like that on that website. You can always email me it's Beck at BGCbridge comm I'm always open to offering you know, help, consultation, you know, networking. You know, if you have a trans client and you just have a couple questions, I'm always glad to you know, Email. But if you want more of like a sit down, you know, we can talk about that as well.
Katie Vernoy 40:06
And just one quick question around resources. Are there any ideal resources for clinicians who'd like to do some reading or some get some basic information that that would help them? At least have a foundation?
Beck Gee Cohen 40:19
Yeah, for sure. There's a lot. But I think the MY GO Tos are Alex II and TAFI has a couple of books on gender trauma. Life isn't binary for non binary, folks. They're also a therapist and amazing therapists doing somatic and trauma work in the LGBTQ plus community so you can go to their website. And then my gender workbook by the fabulous Kate Bornstein is always a good tongue in cheek kind of gender workbook. And again, I suggest therapists get it for themselves and you know, start filling it out like workbook style. You know, Dara Hoffmann Fox also has a gender identity workbook. I love workbooks, again, more introspection, I never give out a book that I wouldn't do myself. So, you know, just get those for yourself and see if they work. And there's a great book for I know, there'll be another conversation around families and trans teens and things like that. But it's called Two Spirits one heart and it's written by a trans son and his mom and the coming out process and that way, so I gave it to my mom when I came out. So a lot of you might be working with parents of trans teens, a really great resource for them.
Curt Widhalm 41:39
And will include links to all of those in our show notes. You can find those over at MTS g podcast.com. And follow us on our social media, join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Beck Gee Cohen
Katie Vernoy 41:55
Thanks again to our sponsor, buying time,
Curt Widhalm 41:58
buying times VAs support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly with a full team of VAs gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available.
Katie Vernoy 42:26
Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need. That's buying time llc.com forward slash book dash consultation once again, buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation.
Announcer 42:42
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Who’s in the Room? Siri, Alexa, and Confidentiality Curt and Katie chat about how therapists can maintain confidentiality in a world of AI assistants and smart devices. What duty do clinicians have to inform clients? How can we balance confidentiality with the reality of how commonly these devices are involved in therapy? Can telehealth therapy be completely confidential and data secure? We discuss our shift in clinical responsibility, best practices, and how we can minimize exposure of clinical data to ensure the confidentiality our clients expect and deserve.
In this podcast episode we talk about something therapists might not consider: smart devices and AI assistants We received a couple of requests to talk about the impact of smart devices on confidentiality and their compliance with HIPAA within a therapeutic environment. We tackle this question in depth:
What are best practices for protecting client confidentiality with smart devices? * Turning off the phone, or placing the phone on “airplane mode” * Warning clients about their own smart devices and confidentiality risks * The ethical responsibilities to inform about limits of confidentiality and take precautions * It’s all about giving clients choice and information
What should therapists consider when smart devices and AI assistants are in the room?
“It’s not to say we have to be luddites, it’s that we have to disclose the potential limits of confidentiality that clients have come to expect.”
– Curt Widhalm
- Whistle-blower reports on how often these devices are actually listening
- Turning off your phone is a lot cheaper than identity theft
- Consider your contacts, geolocation, and Wi-Fi connection
- Some of this, as we progress into a more technological world, might be unavoidable
How do Alexa and Siri impact HIPAA compliance for therapists? * The importance of end-to-end encryption for all HIPAA activities (and your smart device may not be compliant) * The cost of HIPAA violations if identity theft can be traced back * Understand the risks you are taking, do what you can, and remember no one is perfect
What can modern therapists do with their smart devices?
“Whether it’s convenience or practicality that has you putting your client’s contacts into your phone, we have to think beyond that because it really can harm our ability to keep that data safe.” – Katie Vernoy
- GPS location services can be left on for a safety reason, emergency services use GPS location
- Adjusting settings for voice activation, data sharing, when apps are running, locations, etc.
- Turning off and airplane mode are also options
- Always let the client know the limits of confidentiality
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Buying Time LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Psychotherapy in Ontario: How Confidential is my Therapy? By Beth Mares, Registered Psychotherapist
The Privacy Problem with Digital Assistants by Kaveh Waddell
Hey Siri and Alexa: Let's Talk Privacy Practices by Elizabeth Weise, USA Today
Patient and Consumer Safety Risks When Using Conversational Assistants for Medical Information: An Observational Study of Siri, Alexa, and Google Assistant, 2018
Hey Siri: Did you Break Confidentiality, or did I? By Nicole M. Arcuri Sanders, Counseling Today
Alexa, Siri, Google Assistant Not HIPAA Compliant, Psychiatry Advisor
Hey Alexa, are you HIPAA compliant? 2018
Person-Centered Tech
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Which Theoretical Orientation Should You Choose?
Is Your Practice Ready for Paid Digital Marketing? An Interview with John Sanders
Waiving Goodbye to Telehealth Progress: An interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT
Malpractice is No Joke
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the modern therapist Survival Guide is sponsored by buying time
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time has a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buying time. llc.com forward slash systems stash checklist.
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about all things therapy, the things that we consider the things that we don't. And stay is one of those days where we're going to be talking about some of the things that we might not consider. And this really comes with some of those smart devices in our homes, our offices, potentially even in our clients homes, and what it means for confidentiality, especially in terms of compliance with things like HIPAA, and who's always listening. And you know, Google a few years ago changed kind of their motto from do no evil to whatever it is. Now I just know that they're, they're no longer committing to not doing evil. But I want to start with kind of this idea of when we especially start with telehealth clients, but this is also going to be true when it comes to our in person sessions with things like smartphones and just kind of being cool in the modern era and having things like Amazon echoes or Google Docs, or any of these kinds of things in our offices of are those things always listening, and what does this mean for client data?
Katie Vernoy 02:07
That's a big intro. Yeah, I, I've worried about this for a while. And that's why I don't have a any kind of AI in my office, although after reading some of these articles I actually do because I have my phone in my office because I receive messages. And I do all kinds of stuff. So it's a little bit scary to think about what might be listening.
Curt Widhalm 02:33
So I mean, this is where I think any of us who have a Windows laptop, there's Cortana, if you have one of these Amazon devices, there's Alexa, if somebody you know, has Siri, these things are listening. And well, some of the tech stuff, you know, might say that they're only listening for key words that would activate them articles that we're looking at here is what we're going to dive into today. As far as does this mean that our sessions with clients are actually as confidential as we're talking about? And what does this mean for our own best practices as we go forward, having smart devices in our offices in our homes, and potentially even in our client's homes. And the way that this conversation initially came up was I was at a dinner party with some other therapists and talking about great dinner party talk that happens wherever I'm at with other therapists, which is,
Katie Vernoy 03:34
Yeah, only although therapists with me, I tend to
Curt Widhalm 03:37
Get people asking a lot ethics questions. And one of the questions that was up for discussion was our duties when it comes to talking with clients about confidentiality, particularly when it comes to telehealth. And I was describing that we have a responsibility to talk with our clients about the limits of confidentiality, that may include privacy in their own homes, if there's potentially somebody who's walking down the hallway, outside their bedroom or office door, wherever they're doing sessions from, and one of the other therapists at this party said, Well, what about any of the smart devices? Do you ever warn them about Google or Alexa or Siri actually listening? And that's what sparked this. So if you ever want a podcast episode, I am available for dinner parties for you to float ideas by.
Katie Vernoy 04:28
Okay, okay, there we go. And so this
Curt Widhalm 04:31
Has led to some research on our part here as far as what is our responsibility? And what do we need to do with our clients as it pertains to some of this AI discussion, even when we don't think that it's happening?
Katie Vernoy 04:47
Well, to me, when you propose this idea for the podcast, the first thing that came to mind was really around convenience versus confidentiality. Because when we're looking at a lot of these things, When we don't turn off voice activation, when we don't make sure that we're not connected to everything through our phones, and all of the contacts and everything within our phones, data is at risk. I mean, even if it says little as a GPA, GPS colocation, it could be a contact could be content that you're actually discussing. I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways that folks use their phones kind of just live their lives and the convenience of having Google read through your emails, or, you know, whatever it is to be able to scan for things that need to go on your calendar, or to scan for things. You know, like, I love that I can, you know, in the before times when I was traveling, I loved that Google knew where I was flying to what flight I was on, and I would be able to get that information and notifications like you should be leaving for the airport right now. So I think it's something where the convenience of having the AI tracking us and listening to us and reading our emails, and all of that has sometimes trumped our need for privacy.
Curt Widhalm 06:09
The first article that I came across in this is an article from counseling today. This is publication of the American Counseling Association. This article was by Nicole R. Curry Sanders called Hey, Siri, did you break confidentiality? Or did I in this article, Dr. Curry Sanders actually cites an article from The Guardian newspaper, talking about an apple contractor who's a whistleblower. And this contractor is quoted as saying that they regularly hear confidential medical information, drug deals, recordings of couples having sex as a part of this contractors job providing quality control. So these devices are, at least historically have listened. Now, this flies in the face of what some of the tech articles that I'm seeing out there who say that these devices are only listening for those keywords that activate them, but that they're actually constantly on. And according to this contractors cited in this Guardian article, they are recording and sharing this information. So it's very theoretically easily believed that it's also listening in on your therapy sessions. If that's the case, with Apple having this information, everybody who's got an iPhone, that's either bringing it into your session, these devices are potentially listening to everything that's being discussed in your sessions, which is scary, because I imagine that most therapists are not talking about this as a potential breaking of the limits of confidentiality and the promise of confidentiality that makes therapy so sacred.
Katie Vernoy 07:55
And I think that as a society, we have kind of cosign on this lack of privacy, I mean, Siri, or Alexa or Google or whatever, potentially are, they're constantly listening to all of us. And that's part of life. And so are we, are we responsible above this risk that all of us are willing to take by having phones in our pockets,
Curt Widhalm 08:20
And I don't think many of us are, and we'll include the links to what we're talking about here in our show notes. You can find those over at MTS g podcast.com. The next thing that I'm looking at here is a blog post on psychiatry, advisor.com called Alexa Siri, Google Assistant are not HIPAA compliant, and it warns against. Obviously, we all at this point should know that you shouldn't be doing your notes onto one of these devices using some of these voice prompts. But if this article also warns about don't add clients to your schedule using one of these either because it's not an end to end encrypted sort of device, which is one of the requirements of HIPAA, and that HIPAA violations can cost people hundreds or 1000s of dollars. If identity theft can be traced back to them think of how convenient it is to just turn off your phone. So that way, and how much potential money this may end up saving you by just doing the simplest of things.
Katie Vernoy 09:28
Yes, yes, I again, but I still want to you know, we're I know we're
Curt Widhalm 09:34
Any good one ethics discussion should leave people anxious.
Katie Vernoy 09:39
But my question still stands. If I do my part because I am a HIPAA provider. I put my phone on Do Not Disturb or whatever I airplane mode. I put my phone on airplane mode. I don't have any other devices with listening capability in my room, and I only use my electronic health record for scheduling and communication and HIPAA compliant email, blah, blah, blah, like I do all the things, and my client still has a smartphone in their pocket, like do I actually need to warn them about that smartphone in their pocket, because they already theoretically are agreeing to this constant surveillance. By having that smartphone in their pocket,
Curt Widhalm 10:22
I think that we have a duty. And this is reflected in our ethics codes. And we have a duty to tell our clients even things that they may not consider as it pertains to therapy about, okay, where limits of confidentiality may lie? Well, there may be the constant surveillance of these devices in everyday life, but to further prompt them, at least, and especially in our first telehealth session with them that, hey, just in case you haven't considered this, your smart devices in the room may also be listening to your therapy session. And well, you know, it's not the same thing as a sibling or somebody else, brother, parents child's, you know, walking down the hallway, there is the potential that some of this information may be transmitted to people that you don't want to and if that's a consideration, if you want to unplug those devices in the general listening area right now, now would be the time to do so.
Katie Vernoy 11:24
Okay. I mean, that seems fair, I think there's going to be people talking about this, now that we've put this podcast episode out. So I think we also don't want to freak people out. I mean, I think about also there, yes, the data is being transmitted, but it's kind of like how much data are people actually looking at. I mean, it's, it's such an inundation of all of this surveillance data, that the likelihood of someone honing in on a therapy session feels small as part of quality control. And I'm not saying we shouldn't do anything about it, I'm just saying, I'm gonna.
Curt Widhalm 11:59
Wave your argument away and saying that the likelihood of somebody breaking into your office and working at client files is also very small. But that does not absolve you of your responsibility to take the precautions to let our clients know about the limits of confidentiality,
Katie Vernoy 12:17
I think it's I think, in talking about it with clients, the way you just said, it sounded a little paranoid, you
Curt Widhalm 12:22
Are being listened to.
Katie Vernoy 12:25
You're being listened to. It's I think there's potentially a clinical clinically relevant way to talk about it. I mean, I think, as you know, smart devices that have voice activation potentially can get activated by words that we use, you may want to turn those on, or turn them off their devices in your room, turn them off, turn off voice activation, whatever. But like, there are devices listening in your room, you may want to unplug them. You sounded a little paranoid. It's true. But But I think we want to I don't know, it just it feels a little bit. I don't know paranoid to me, I don't I don't know what
Curt Widhalm 13:03
Your paranoia is my legal precaution of that. And it doesn't have to be presented in that paranoid sort of way. It's just, you know, hey, it's known at this point, like little disclosure, here, we have a little you know, Alexa thing sitting in our living room, sometimes our TV activates it. And then we get little ads on the Alexa based on whatever show that's activated Alexa. So all of a sudden, we're getting, you know, Airbnb recommendations of, you know, wherever the TV show we just watched was located, it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to think these things are listening, it's happened a couple of times with my phone, just in this episode, it doesn't have to be done in a paranoia sort of way. It's just kind of a, hey, if your privacy means that much to you, and you're gonna be talking about these sensitive things, you might want to consider shutting off those voice activated things in your room.
Katie Vernoy 13:55
Well, I mean, the other thing that we talked about before starting to record is also the the geolocation and potentially contacts on your phone. And so to me, I feel like, at some point there, if we are going to be in a technological society, there may be things that we just cannot avoid. And maybe I'm wrong. I mean, maybe do I do I just never turn on my phone when another person's in my office, like, I feel like being able to not have, you know, if someone's actually physically coming to my office, and our phones have crossed GPS, and all of our apps say like, Oh, they're in the same room, they must like the same things and then start feeding us all of the ads, on the things that either we've talked about, because voice activation is on, or the things that each other have searched for. I mean, it starts to get a little bit nutty, to like, basically be Luddites at the moments during which we're doing therapy.
Curt Widhalm 14:53
It's not to say that we have to be Luddites, it's that we have to disclose the potential So limits of confidentiality that clients may be coming to expect sharing on a Wi Fi network, if you're a well intentioned therapist who has a parent who wants to be, you know, on the Wi Fi network in your office while their kids doing therapy. That's one way that some of these algorithms work to match up people who should be connected on some of the social media sites, if you've got a client's phone number saved in your phone, and you've given third party apps, the permission to scan through your phonebook. These are other ways that you're potentially transmitting data to people that you have maybe lied to people about in your Notice of Privacy Practices that you give to your clients, if the information that you say that what you're doing with it, and how it's going to be shared. And you're sharing this information in inadvertent ways, I'm not aware of any court cases where a therapist has been taken to court on this, but I could see where a therapist could be held liable by having some of this data shared in ways that they never heard that their Notice of Privacy Practices, you know, they take their boilerplate language from somebody down the street, who took it from somebody down the street, who took it from somebody down the street, who took it from actually a paid layer that they actually were responsible with. So since we tend to copy and paste and borrow and pay homage to other people's paperwork, by just borrowing and stealing, and calling it our own, we may not actually be aware of everything in some of these Notice of Privacy Practices that we give out, if what you're doing is transmitting some of this client data, you at least should document that you've had some of these discussions with your clients, as a way of limiting your liability when it comes to having any of these kinds of devices around you. And if the conversation and your own anxieties hasn't pointed it out. So far, we all have these devices, this should be a regular part of the conversation. And should be something where especially talking about a lot of protected health information, especially if you're already a HIPAA covered entity, you have to be aware of this
Katie Vernoy 17:11
Going back to kind of the original thought that I had around this is that whether it's convenience, or practicality that has you put the contacts in your phone, for example, I think that we have to think beyond that. Because it really can harm our ability to keep those that data say I mean, I think about inadvertently, I have done a really good job at keeping my data away from Facebook, I don't take any of the things I don't log into anything with Facebook, I've tried to keep Facebook fairly separate, as well as I use a really old email. And it's not connected to my practice in any way. I'm not sure that anybody else wants to do that. But they're like, I don't share contacts with any of my social media. So my phone is never mind for those things I actively go through and, and deny those permissions. But to me, it could be very simple, even a slip of your of a button press so to speak, where you've shared all your contact to LinkedIn, Twitter, social media, any other social media platform that you allow all of the permissions on your phone, because it's easier because like, oh, well, I'll find my friends, I don't have to go search for them individually. I mean, there's so many ways that are very seductive, that we could do this in an inadvertent data sharing,
Curt Widhalm 18:33
You know, this is no commentary on you. But you identified yourself not as like a super tech savvy person. And yet, I would say that what you just described is more tech savvy than what most people would think about. And that's why we have some of the responsibilities that we do in talking with clients about how their health information may go beyond just our therapy sessions here. Some of these articles that we've seen talk about, you know, don't do things like write your notes, you know, pay Google write in this patient chart, X, Y, and Z. Like, those things would seem obvious, especially to a lot of our modern therapist community who would be like, yeah, that totally makes sense. But just actually having the presence of any of these devices around us, is, you know, a matter of lifestyle for some people and it's knowing to go in and how to shut off some of these things or be able to talk with some of our clients about this because something that's happened during the COVID pandemic and with a lot of telehealth is, we've also become de facto, it people when it comes to explaining to some of our clients just even how to make some of the telehealth stuff work. And so if you know our EHR platforms, and as simple as they get made before for user experiences, if people are still having trouble with those knowing to go in and where to look on a phone for here's where data gets shared back and forth with each other, well, that might be a little bit outside. The scope of what we want to talk about with clients, it's sometimes more simple as far as if you have these devices. And you don't want the conversation of what we're what we're talking about being shared with any of the apps on your phone. Best practice might be just to turn them off during our sessions. But if you leave them on, just know that we can't guarantee complete confidentiality, that's it.
Katie Vernoy 20:20
That seems fair. Um, one of the things that you said earlier, though, struck me because I think that you and I are like, obviously, we wouldn't, you know, kind of transcribe our notes or, you know, kind of do voice over notes on our phone. But that's kind of an accessibility issue for some folks who can't type or handwrite their notes. And I would be very curious on how to protect in that regard. You know, if I've got a voice recorder, that helps me to do my notes, is it within a HIPAA compliant platform that goes directly into my notes? I mean, this might be things that people need to research is how do all of my apps interact? And how do I make sure that I'm not there's not more than what I'm working on open and listening? Because I think that's hard. And I don't know that I wouldn't say I'm tech savvy, I think I actually am. But I think it's something where understanding how privacy and data works, and how things interact with each other how there's data handoffs, I think those types of things feel like they are beyond the scope of being a therapist, but I like what you're saying is like, then just turn these devices off. I guess the only problem is, I have clients that use their phone for their telehealth session. So I don't know if you know, I use simple practice. So I don't know simple practice, then make sure that other apps on the phone are not listening. I don't know if there's even a way to do that. And or if there is a way for people to, you know, like, do you go through and you just kind of disable each of the apps that you don't want to listen, I mean, it feels like there's, there's a challenge here to really having a practical solution, unless we can be certain that the platform that we're using for our video calls on the phone are actually is actually secure. And my assumption is that's the case, I just don't know what else is listening, if and if that's possible.
Curt Widhalm 22:11
And in preparation of this episode, I did not do a deep dive into how, you know, our EHR platforms when they are used on our devices, more popular EHR companies, simple practice, you mentioned those video sessions, if there is a HIPAA compliance, if they have signed a BA agreement with you, those are end to end encrypted communications. Now, what I did not do a deep dive on is does that also prevent other apps and things from also listening, if it is being used on this solitary device that your session is on TBD? You know, follow us on our social media, or whatever. And we'll sort through that through that. It does come back to this point. And especially as we can see some of these tech companies moving more and more into the healthcare space that they're going to make closer and closer approximate efforts to become HIPAA compliant. And this is always kind of a cautionary sort of thing, where I'm a part of a lot of Facebook groups, with therapists, a lot of online communities, and I see a number of people wanting to do things as inexpensively as possible. But without those ba agreements, as business associate agreements, you're not guaranteed to have the same a HIPAA protections if that data does get leaked out or shared in other ways. And so these are your responsibilities as therapists when it comes to confidentiality and this AI conversation.
Katie Vernoy 23:44
And there's a lot of different ways to try to do that. I was one of you were talking, I was thinking about a conversation I had with Roy Huggins from persons under attack, who unfortunately recently just died. And it's a very tragic loss for our profession. And just the way that he would talk about HIPAA compliance. And I'm sure Person Center tech will continue that work was that you have to understand the risks that you're taking, and do what you can and then be comfortable with a risk you're still taking because he's not be perfect. And so I think it's I think it's, it's hard because it can be very scary, because we can't necessarily get to a place where we've we've taken every single precaution. I mean, we could go to a black site, have everyone come in separate ways, no GPS phones are left at their houses, and then be in a room together and then leave. There might be other liability if nobody knows where you are, and you're alone in a room with a client. But I think as a society, I don't think we can protect ourselves from every single thing. But these are things that we can protect ourselves against. pretty simply, I mean, you just turn it off. Um, I think, and that's something that I don't know that a lot of people were thinking about this. Now,
Curt Widhalm 24:57
One of the questions on one of these articles got asked, I think is worth discussing here is for people who are working at sites that require you to have a cell phone on you for safety reasons, whether it be in the floor of a hospital male use system, if you're working for an agency where you go and visit clients houses or whatever, it's what did you see, in kind of the responses to those articles there,
Katie Vernoy 25:26
The main thing is to turn off voice activation, so that there's not a voice activation element. So it's not recording the content, making your phone, a regular cell phone and trying to get rid of some of the other, you know, kind of the smart elements of it, I think can be very helpful. The thing that you can't avoid, if you're trying to go for safety is really, you got to keep GPS on if you need to make an emergency call, they need to be able to ping your cell phone. And so I think there's there are some, some safety issues or not, there are some privacy issues that you can't avoid if you need to have a cell phone. And it's for safety reasons. But I think it's something where the voice assistant technologies, those things are maybe not that easy to find, but but you can, you know, there's some instructions in this, and I'll put this in the show notes so that you can find it. But you know, turning off those voice activation, making sure that you've made yourself as tight as possible. As far as any kind of data that's going out turning off, you know, all of the apps, making sure there's nothing running in the background, even going through your apps and having the permission set to only while the app is on, I think is helpful, because then if Facebook is tracking your location, and Instagram is tracking your location, and Google and whatever, if those are tracking your location all the time, then there's a lot of data being shared. But if you turn those, if you only have those on when you have those apps open, and you consciously close them before you go in my hope is that they're not also running in the background. I've also had something where I put my phone on really low battery use before where it only allows for phone. So it basically shuts down anything running in the background so that you don't have things going that you don't know about. But you know, if you're wanting safety going all the way to turning it off or airplane mode is going to maybe an advisable for safety.
Curt Widhalm 27:24
And in these conversations and what I would suggest is let your clients know what the limits of confidentiality are. And and this doesn't have to be a huge in depth pieces of conversations. Some of your clients may have more interest in what you're talking about, or paranoia depending on why you're seeing those clients. But we would love to hear your experiences with this kind of stuff or thoughts or considerations that you have. You can share those with us on our social media. You can find links to those in our show notes. And once again, those are over at MTS g podcast.com. You can join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group and spill your data to us and Mark Zuckerberg. And until next time, I'm Kurt Wilhelm with Katie Vernoy and Siri.
Katie Vernoy 28:17
Thanks again to our sponsor buying time
Curt Widhalm 28:20
Buying Time's VAs support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly with a full team of VAs gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available.
Katie Vernoy 28:48
Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need. That's buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation once again, buying time llc.com forward slash book dash consultation.
Announcer 29:04
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How to Understand and Treat Psychosis: An interview with Maggie Mullen, LCSW Curt and Katie interview Maggie Mullen, LCSW, a national trainer on culturally responsive, evidence-based care for psychotic spectrum disorders. We talk with Maggie about their anti-racist and disability justice framework of psychosis, understanding psychosis on a spectrum, what to do when psychosis enters the treatment picture, assessment of psychosis, and treatment using Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). We also talk about how society defines “normal” and pathology, exploring cultural differences in these definitions.
Interview with Maggie Mullen, LCSW Maggie Mullen, LCSW (they/them) is a clinical social worker, national trainer, community activist, and author of The Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook for Psychosis. Maggie specializes in culturally responsive, evidence-based care for psychotic spectrum disorders, trauma and PTSD, the LBGTQ+ community, and formerly incarcerated people. As a training director at Kaiser Permanente, they take great pride in mentoring, training, and supervising the next generation of social workers. You can find them online at www.maggiemullen.com
In this podcast episode we talk about looking at psychosis differently We started the conversation on psychosis when we were looking at conspiracy theories. We know that folks who believe in conspiracy theories and those who have a diagnosis of psychosis are different, but knew that we needed a deeper dive into how to understand and treat psychosis. We dig deeply into this conversation in this week’s podcast episode:
Maggie Mullen’s anti-racist and disability justice framework of psychosis
“People with psychosis [are] being overly institutionalized… over medicated or highly focused on medication as the sole treatment. And particularly for our… black, indigenous, and folks of color experiencing psychosis, and people who are being shot and killed by police… when they're out responding to their symptoms in a public way, or being incarcerated and not receiving treatment.”
- Maggie came from a community organizing background
- Inequity and lack of resources for people who experience chronic psychosis
- The focus on medication rather than other forms of treatment for psychosis
- BIPOC individuals being shot by police when psychosis shows up in a public space
“Psychotic spectrum” versus the segregation of psychosis as “other”
“We are often the least prepared to deal with our most acute clients”
- The continued segregation of psychotic disorders
- Cultural considerations when determining what is psychosis or other types of experiences
- The lack of inclusion of psychosis in the research
- Psychosis is not “other” but is actually a spectrum of behaviors and are very common
- The symptoms of psychosis are not constant, they fluctuate for every individual
- The importance of following the model and voices of the disability justice movement
- Including education on the treatment for psychosis, rather than allowing therapists to opt out
- Folks with psychosis are often not included in the research, which needs to change
What to do when psychosis comes into the treatment picture for our clients
“The reality is there are wonderful outcomes, I think, for people with psychosis, when we look at it from a different perspective. Which is to say – what if some of the work might be on changing your symptoms themselves? But what if part of the work is actually on accepting your experiences so that you can just experience less stress with them?”
- We need more training on psychosis to feel confident
- Normalizing the experience of psychosis
- Helping to make peace with psychotic symptoms (i.e., making friends with the voices) to decrease distress
- Looking at treatments beyond medication
- How to identify psychosis and assess for impact and impairment
- The myth that all elements of psychosis are distressing and bad
Why Maggie Mullen is using Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) to treat psychosis
“People with psychosis deal with emotion dysregulation, actually more so than the average person…that's where we know DBT is really effective”
- We frequently underestimate the ability to help folks with psychosis
- Using DBT skills for emotion regulation concerns that frequently come up in psychosis
- Psychosis and PTSD oftentimes occur together and aren’t always diagnosed
- Trauma can influence the onset of psychosis AND psychosis can be traumatic
- Maggie’s pilot program with DBT for psychosis
- The concrete and straight forward nature of DBT skills make them very accessible
Understanding psychosis differently, including the cultural differences of what is “normal” * How to identify what is “real” and what is psychosis * How do you define what is normal for someone? * What do we decide what we pathologize? * Breaking up the binary of normal or not normal – reframing as “experience” * The importance of understanding what is negatively impacting the client and how to keep clients safe * Take the lead of your client and trust that they know themselves best * The tension between taking the lead of the client and mandates and requirements as a therapist
The Dialectical Behavior Therapy Skills Workbook for Psychosis by Maggie Mullen, LCSW * Maggie wrote a book to democratize DBT skills * Using DBT, but making the skills more concrete and accessible
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Buying Time LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Maggie’s website
Maggie on Instagram
The DBT Skills Workbook for Psychosis by Maggie Mullen, LCSW
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Conspiracy Theories in Your Office
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America: Serious Mental Illness and Homeless
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America: Psychiatric Crises in the Emergency Room
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America: Peer Support Specialists
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time
Katie Vernoy 00:04
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Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:49
Welcome back modern therapist. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about all sorts of stuff and just my continued ability or inability to introduce episodes well here but
Katie Vernoy 01:06
yes, yes.
Curt Widhalm 01:07
Recently, we had an episode on conspiracy theories. We very, very briefly talked about the difference between people who are following conspiracy theories and psychosis. We did an almost barely adequate job of talking about it and decided that we needed to follow up with somebody could who could help us talk about psychosis a little bit more deeply. And so we have a guest today, Maggie Mullen LCSW w. And they are a fantastic resource when it comes to working with psychosis and very glad to have them with us here today. So thank you very much, Maggie, for joining us.
Maggie Mullen 01:49
Thanks so much for having me, Curt. And Katie.
Katie Vernoy 01:51
So glad to have you here. Like I told you before we got started, we needed somebody to talk about psychosis saw that you had sent in a little pitch to us. And we're like, oh my gosh, this is perfect. We're so excited. And I can't wait to kind of get to meet you here on the podcast. But let's, let's have everyone meet you and say what we always say to all our guests, who are you? And what are you putting out to the world.
Maggie Mullen 02:12
As Curt mentioned, Maggie Mullen, LCSW I use they them pronouns. And I am an author and trainer. And what I am working right now to put out into the world is an anti racist and disability justice approach to working with people experiencing psychosis that really focuses on centering their experiences and needs. And one of the ways that I'm really going about that right now is by offering DBT informed treatment to people who are struggling with psychotic spectrum disorders like schizophrenia, schizoaffective, disorder, bipolar disorder, etc.
Curt Widhalm 02:43
You get into this work, that a lot of therapists have their own stories that just what's your story as far as getting into working with psychosis, and really having this level of passion for it?
Maggie Mullen 02:59
So I come from a community organizing background, right, a lot of the work that I was doing before grad school was really centered around how do we bring communities together to fight for change. And I chose a path of social work, because I really wanted to have the opportunity to do both that macro kind of bigger level practice, but also help individuals because I was somebody who was able to connect with people pretty well and really enjoyed that part of the work. And as I was in grad school, learning more about mental health and kind of being in that part of the field, the thing I kept seeing over and over again, was the inequity and really lack of resources for people who are experiencing psychosis in a chronic way. And the way that, you know, that kind of shows up and at least at US, US society is, you know, seen people with psychosis being overly institutionalized, you know, really over medicated or highly focused on medication as the sole treatment. And particularly for our, you know, black indigenous and folks of color experiencing psychosis, and people who are being shot and killed by police, right when they're out of responding to their symptoms in a public way, or being incarcerated and not receiving treatment. And for me, that just felt like a call to action to say, I want to get involved in this area that really needs to be expanded. And I think one additional piece is if you look at almost any piece of literature in our field, right? So if you're like nerd like me, you want to go and do research about something. If you look into almost any psychotherapy treatment, you'll see that there's a rule out for participants who experienced psychosis. And that's really widespread across almost all therapies. And I find this odd because the same type of like what we used to call delusional beliefs we now call distressing beliefs or distorted beliefs, those same types of things happen in other diagnoses, right? We see this in eating disorders, right? People who have such distorted beliefs about their bodies to the point that they're willing to, you know, encounter significant health issues in order to engage in certain behaviors, right or even with depression, right, where we have distorted beliefs about your self worth to the point that you're willing to hurt yourself. but we don't exclude people so aggressively from treatment as we do with psychosis. And for me, that's really kind of a question that I kept coming on grad school, like, why this group? Why are we segregating them in this kind of way that's leading to, you know, high rates of suicide, high rates of incarceration, all those things that I mentioned before, that are just poor quality of life issues for these folks.
Curt Widhalm 05:20
So to ask maybe an obvious question here. Why, why what have you found out and asking this big question, what is our system have against psychosis? Is it fear from treatment professionals in the past? I'm sure that you've come up with some at least explanatory answers here.
Maggie Mullen 05:41
Yeah, there's not one right answer, I think is part of this, right. Like, if we went back really far in history, one of the things that we would see is that across cultures, right, there are really different approaches to psychosis, right? We see in a lot of indigenous cultures, the idea that people with psychosis are actually, you know, accessing other states of reality, and that scene is a strength, right? And something that's really valued, right, like people who are medicine are healers. And we don't see that particularly in white society in the US, right, where we're really have kind of more colon colonized mindset. But I think a lot of this comes from fear, right? Just the idea that I don't understand maybe what's happening to this person, they're behaving in a way that's, you know, erratic in my eyes, when it can't really get into their, you know, headspace and understand what they're experiencing. And I think that's part of how our field is responded, because if we look back at Dr. Aaron Beck, right, the creator of CBT, who just passed recently, he was doing trials of CBT, with people with psychosis back in 1950s. And for some reason, and I don't know all the reasons why his research kind of stopped around that point, right, kind of hit a dead end. And then we just kind of started offering these things to people with more like depression, anxiety, etc. I think part of this is just again, that fear that you mentioned, Curt, more than anything, unfortunately,
Katie Vernoy 05:45
when we look at this, there are folks who try to exclude psychosis from their practices, especially private practices. But we can't always exclude it. Right? Like there are times when it comes into our office, we've an established relationship with the client, and we can't always exclude and I'm not saying that we should always exclude it. I think that's part of the problem. But when we don't when we actually start working with psychosis, because it is so... I don't even know what the right word is...kind of fringe, maybe to our profession. I mean, I even think about I know you do DBT for psychosis, I've talked with DBT centers that say if they have psychosis, they shouldn't be doing DBT. I mean, like, there's, there seems like there's not really guidance, when whether you invite or exclude psychosis, when it shows up in your office, it seems like there's there's an opportunity for us to really do it wrong. And so I mean, typically, we asked what a therapist get wrong. So I guess I'm asking that question. But I, I'm trying to sort out kind of even how to get to the correct question, because it seems like part of what we get wrong as we exclude these folks from our practice. But if they show up, I imagine there's stuff that we're really getting wrong in the room and in the treatment planning.
Maggie Mullen 08:18
Yeah, I think part of this is that combination of we need clinicians to have more training across the board and treating psychosis. And again, I think with these newer wave therapies, like CBT, for psychosis, act for psychosis, more DBT skills kind of approach that are really emerging as very strong in the literature and really effective for people. And that are offered, but just not I think, in a very widespread way, again, at least in the US. And so I think part of it is we need clinicians with more training, so they feel more competent. And I think part of where we get things wrong, is that we think of psychosis as like these people over there, right? We kind of again, like you said, kind of put them in like a box segregated in some way. And the way that we really approach psychosis now in a kind of more modern or progressive sense, is that there's really a spectrum of psychosis. Right. On one end of the spectrum, we see people with less distressing less bothersome experiences of psychosis. And that for like, for me, for example, that looks like I'm on call for my work every once in a while, and I My phone has to be on 24/7 because I might be calling the emergency room to do an evaluation. And what will happen to me occasionally is I will think I hear my phone rang, and I will look down and I'll see no miss call, right? And I'll like say to my partner like hey, did you see Did you hear my phone ring? And they're like, No, that's an experience of an auditory hallucination, right. I've just had experience of psychosis. And on the other side of the spectrum, we have more of these distressing chronic life impairing experiences like psychosis that are more common for people who get diagnosed with schizoaffective sorta are psychotic spectrum disorder of some kind. And people who experienced those diagnoses fluctuate on the scale in the same way, right? That they are doing better at certain points, or their symptoms are not as distressing, etc. And part of the reason we frame it in this way now is to normalize the experience of psychosis that at some point, almost all of us will have some experience of psychosis. And I think when we look at it from that perspective, it feels less scary to approach psychosis. And I think also it can instill some hope that I think a lot of therapists don't have when they work with psychosis, right? We feel like, it feels hopeless, nothing's going to change, things are not going to get better. But we get training, I think and experience in that way. And the reality is there are wonderful outcomes, I think, for people with psychosis, when we look at it from a different perspective, which is to say, what if some of the work might be on changing your symptoms themselves? But what if part of the work is actually on acccepting your experiences so that you can just experience less stress with them? Right, so how do I make friends with my voices? So they don't bother me in the same way? Or how do I have to, like, do education with somebody's loved ones and families or societies to accommodate the fact that this person may need to, you know, do certain things to manage their psychotic symptoms, right. And that's just a normal part of their experience, rather than a pathologized experience. So I think these are ways as therapists that we have been getting things wrong historically. But we also know that there's plenty of ways that we can shift that with training with education, to make ourselves feel more confident doing this work
Curt Widhalm 11:37
The longer that we do this podcast more than I recognize that maybe my graduate training was not the greatest. And I'm trying to recall back to the way that we were educated on it. And it just seems to have been like one class in like the the psychopathology class that was just kind of, here's defining what it is. And if you ever end up working on it, then you'll get trained at your site. And it really kind of allowed for opting out of even having to learn about it. And my experience across time has been that it still shows up in my office that clients still present with this kind of stuff. Where do you see, you know, if my experience is really bad, where do you see graduate education needing to go as far as removing some of this fear or other ring of psychotic spectrum as a thing that needs to be feared?
Maggie Mullen 12:43
I think it starts with following the model and the experiences of the Disability Justice Movement, right, I think the thing that we can do first and foremost, is bring in the voices of people who experience psychosis themselves, right, have this lived experience, into our education or classroom settings. Because it's one way that we, I think, with any kind of stigma, right, that's out there is that through more dialogue and experience with people who are living with this, you know, whether we call it condition or experience or whatever, the more comfortable we get with it, the more normal it becomes to us. And so I think it's starting there and in the education and kind of classroom settings to reduce that kind of othering. And then, in addition to that piece, I think, again, it's the part of actively including, and teaching the treatments for folks with psychosis, and not acting like we can opt out of it. I think one thing I find, with therapists, not across the board, but oftentimes, is that we are often the least prepared to deal with our most acute clients, right? So we are often trained really well to work with people with, you know, garden variety, depression and anxiety adjustment issues, etc. The word Well, exactly right. And we don't get a lot of trained, I think that is very quality for people who are chronically struggling and dealing with things that are acute and very difficult for them very distressing. And I think that's part of where our education and our schools needs to change is to shift away from, you know, exclusive treatment of worried well, and really integrate the bigger spectrum of mental health and well being overall,
Curt Widhalm 14:20
to maybe even further add to this is not necessarily treating psychosis as something that just needs to be medicated away, which has been historically just kind of where well, you ship them to a psychiatrist, and that'll take care of the voices.
Maggie Mullen 14:38
Absolutely. Yeah, I hear that even for my colleagues, right, who work in my clinic have the idea that like psychosis is actually easy to work with because it's on the psychiatrist right to do that work. It's not really on us. We're just chasing them around getting them on medication. But as you've probably experienced in doing any of this work yourselves, many people with psychosis struggle with medications as an intervention, right? That can be life changing. For a lot of people, and for other folks, the side effects that come with them, you know, are so impairing that they're like, I don't want to do this right or, or I'm scared to do this or whatever it is because they can really change your life, your health outcomes, and even just the longevity of your life. So when we rely exclusively on that stuff, it really denies people the ability to build a life worth living, but isn't just, you know, kind of circled around medications as the only treatment
Katie Vernoy 15:26
Well, even in and how you're talking about psychosis, it just really puts a different flavor of it for me with this whole idea of a spectrum of psychosis. And to me, I mean, if we're really looking at auditory hallucinations, like hearing the phone ring, but it hasn't really wrong, or, or even, you know, kind of some of these really distorted thoughts that come up and these delusional beliefs that we have about ourselves that happen in, you know, even kind of garden variety, depression and anxiety, it seems like assessing psychosis would actually be much more complicated. If we're really looking at the full spectrum of the experience. What is your advice as far as identifying, you know, kind of what, what requires or what would be helped by this knowledge around psychosis?
Maggie Mullen 16:16
Can you answer a different way, Katie?
Katie Vernoy 16:19
Yeah, I guess I'm just asking, basically, how do you assess psychosis when it's not kind of this florid psychosis? How do you how do you actually assess psychosis with this idea of a spectrum of psychosis and psychotic experience?
Maggie Mullen 16:38
I think it's really dependent on the level of distress and impairment and causes in somebody's life. Right? Like with all things, when I think about if you're doing really good assessment for any mental health issue, and psychosis is no exception. It's like, how is this interfering with your goals? And the things you want to be doing with your values, your ability to do what you love? How is this in terms of the emotional side of it, right? Like, how much distress how much upset is this causing you, etc. And getting a really clear picture from clients around those pieces, I think can tell us whether we what level of intervention we need to kind of do. Because again, I think one thing that providers often do is we also kind of do the other extreme, which is to assume that if you have any experience of psychosis, it is distressing, and it's bad, right? Like we need to get rid of it. And I think a lot of people who have lived experience of psychosis will tell you, I actually find that there's some very comforting parts of my psychosis, right? Like, maybe I hear the voice of my mom talking to me who passed away or some other loved one, right, or, you know, something that can feel like it's just reassuring to them. And so when we need to when we're doing these assessments, we want to also be integrated in what's the problem and what's actually quite adaptive and works for your life instead,
Curt Widhalm 17:51
So why DBT for psychosis
Maggie Mullen 17:54
So in thinking back to the part about like, where researchers and mental health people got it wrong. So for a long time, providers assumed that people with psychosis didn't experience emotions in the same way as people who were maybe more neurotypical because they weren't expressing their emotions through their effect or their body language, right. And a lot of that has to do with negative symptoms, which are part of that spectrum of psychosis. And what we now know is that people with psychosis deal with emotion dysregulation, actually more so than the average person, right? So they're dealing with overwhelming emotions, that are sometimes triggered by their symptoms, right. So if you have a critical voice telling you, you're a bad person, that's going to cause emotion dysregulation, we're going to get emotional, sure, and kind of the cycle that can happen where then you might experience more psychosis, right? More symptoms, because of an increase in emotions, so kind of becomes a cycle. And what we know to be true is that people then cope with that emotion dysregulation the same way that somebody with, you know, BPD, who's in treatment for DBT, like do which is self harming suicide attempts, substance use, etc. And so that's where we know DBT is really effective, right, based on both the literature, the research, but people's lived experience around it. And so the idea with how we use DBT skills, and I say DBT skills, because we're taking an informed treatment approach, we're not necessarily doing a full DBT treatment program, although that is appropriate for some people with psychosis. We're thinking, let's break that cycle of again, emotions and symptoms kind of escalating each other by using something like distress tolerance skill, or an emotion regulation skill or mindfulness to help break things up and help reduce your distress.
Katie Vernoy 19:44
It seems to be completely logical that that would be the case like and my experience of working with some clients that had different different diagnoses on the spectrum of psychosis, and I also in my experience, if in any way was was aware of oftentimes trauma histories as well as is that? Is that relevant to this conversation?
Maggie Mullen 20:09
Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks for bringing it up. So one thing that I think is, or I don't think I know is very common amongst people with psychotic spectrum disorders is PTSD. So not just experiences of trauma, but experiences of trauma that are continuing to impact our life in a really significant way. And right now, we think about a third of people with schizophrenia have PTSD, which is a very high number. We actually think it's probably higher, though, because clinicians tend to not assess for PTSD very commonly. And clients don't tend to also report those symptoms very actively when they're not asked. So when we think about, again, what clinicians might be missing, it's important that we assess for that and, and part of how we think about trauma with psychosis is that it's really common for people with a psychotic spectrum disorder to have, you know, childhood trauma, so some kind of trauma from growing up. That might be one of the contributing stress factors in the development of psychosis over time. And we also know the experiences associated with experiencing psychosis are traumatic, right. So for example, we talked about the idea of like being incarcerated or being taken by the police in handcuffs to go to the hospital, right, that's a traumatizing experience for a lot of people, particularly for people of color. We also have, you know, being mistreated in hospitals kind of being warehoused there for long periods of time. And then certainly just the experience of psychosis itself, right, when you're just oriented and you're, you know, kind of separated from reality that can be really scary for people, right, we might do things that are out of character for ourselves. So trauma is a common experience, I think, for people with psychosis. And secondarily, there's really great treatment for people experiencing PTSD who also have a psychotic spectrum disorder. But it's really uncommon for providers to offer it because of fear, I think, again, to what we were talking about earlier. And we know, I think more so part of what we see the literature and research changing is that we are including more people with psychosis and studies now than we used to before. So for example, we see a lot of the new prolonged exposure, which is, you know, one of the gold standards for treatment of PTSD, that if somebody has relatively well controlled psychosis, so they might experience some active psychosis, but it may just not cause strong levels of distress. They're a great candidate for PTSD treatment. And same thing for cognitive processing therapy or CPT as well.
Curt Widhalm 22:31
Over the couple 100 episodes or so that we've done, we've had plenty of guests who come in and speak very well about their their target populations. But I don't think that we've had people like you who've actually piloted programs that back up that this is just beyond kind of the here's something that I've experienced a lot in my office and done well with, can you talk about what you saw as an opportunity with the program that you piloted?
Maggie Mullen 23:00
Sure, so I was trained as a DBT clinician, that's like my bread and butter as a therapist and working in a fully intensively trained DBT program. And I like live and breathe DBT, like, I am one of those DBT nerds that you hear about in grad school. And I think I felt like I was working, you know, as a DBT therapist, but also working a lot with people with psychosis in a in a kind of a treatment program. And there was this weird separation where we saw like, these two worlds being again, just very disparate, and not a lot offered between them necessarily, even though again, for people with borderline personality disorder who are really well treated by DBT. A lot of them actually experienced psychosis as part of their symptoms. And so what I did, essentially, with the encouragement of my colleagues was to say, why don't we just try to offer some of these skills to our clients and see how they do with them, see if they're practical enough, if they're concrete enough, which is, you know, important for people who might be experiencing chronic psychosis to be able to use them. And I really did this in conjunction with cognitive behavioral therapy for psychosis, right. CBT for psychosis has a really strong evidence base. And so I felt like, let's address this cognitive piece that CBT is really good at, but also integrated behavioral piece of DBT. And our clients loved it. Like it was actually kind of overwhelming the response that we received, as well as the outcome studies that we were doing around clients talking about how they were using those skills, and what that what that was shifting in their life, essentially, to feel like, not only do I know how to shift my thinking, but I can do something differently about it. And the thing about DBT skills that maybe no one will tell you is they're very straightforward, right? There are a lot of things people are already doing. Right? So self soothing, right? Many of us self soothe in many different ways, right? we distract ourselves, right? We use all of these skills, I think in many adaptive ways. And part of the work I think of integrating DBT skills is saying, Okay, do that intentionally now, right like don't just Do it as a background thing, but like think about what do I actually need right now that I'm feeling distressed? Because of the voices I'm hearing? You know, do we need to practice? You know, tip, right, which is a common skill in DBT when somebody is really distressed? Or do we want to practice opposite action here, because you're feeling some unjustified emotions, for example, and really just getting people to practice those in a more active way.
Katie Vernoy 25:20
I guess I keep going back to this notion that psychosis is not something that is separate, although I think there are programs where folks end up that are separate, like a day treatment program, those types of things, but oftentimes, even in those programs, it's folks that have had pretty intense emotions, intense suicidality, you know, there's, there's a reason that they're there, it's doesn't always mean that every single person in these day treatment programs have psychosis. But regardless, I think that the, the thing that I keep coming back to is this idea around looking at psychosis differently. And when we do that, it opens up all these other treatment options, because we look at as folks who have this element, and not "them", when you were talking about the way that other cultures look at psychosis, and the ways that folks who are having some of these experiences are, are seen as whether it's a medicine person, or someone that has insight in a different way. Or there's, there's different things where, you know, people are in touch with different parts of reality. I think about religion in the United States, and the similarities with that, and how people will hear God, they'll they'll, you know, they'll see signs, there's, there's a lot of things where there are pieces of things that are kind of acceptable, and culturally appropriate. And there are things that are seen as other and I'm just curious, because you talk about kind of your your background and the way that you're perceiving psychosis, and it seems like it would be very hard. And maybe this is what I was trying to get to earlier with the assessment question, but it seems like it's very hard to identify, in some cases, what is real? And what is psychosis? And so the question I have is, again, kind of like, how do we sort through that? How do we sort through? Is this a cultural experience? I mean, I think earlier, you said it was more around, you know, kind of distress. But sometimes having these things that are culturally appropriate are very distressing, you know, you get messages from God, or you get messages from other sources that are very distressing to you. And so how to how do you grapple with that when you're really trying to honor the experience of the person and sorting through whether it's psychosis or whether it's something else?
Maggie Mullen 27:48
I think one of the questions that you're kind of getting at is the question of like, how do you define what's normal for somebody?
Katie Vernoy 27:55
Yes.
Maggie Mullen 27:56
Yeah. And I, this is a question. I think that is when we like really backtrack as mental health professionals to the idea of like, what do we pathologize? And what do we consider normal? It's really hard to do our jobs to some extent, because the DSM is, right, kind of almost based on the idea that there are certain things that are not normal. But
Katie Vernoy 28:17
yeah,
Maggie Mullen 28:17
normal is really relative, right, based on culture based on history based on so many different parts of our experience. So it's, it's a little bit hard to answer that question, because it's a real philosophical one, in a way.
Katie Vernoy 28:28
Yeah.
Maggie Mullen 28:28
I think that is what informs our approaches, different providers is like, where do we come from? And our background of how we approach this type of stuff, again, of the idea of like, is there anything that's normal. And so I think when I see like this disability justice pushing around this piece, that's the part that really aims to sort of break up that binary of normal or not normal and say, like, this is all just experience. And again, the part that becomes how we assess things as clinicians is when somebody tells us this is a problem for me, or this isn't normal for me, right? Or this is scaring me, for example. And that's when we treat things with that kind of lens. It's complex. I think, in many ways, though, because for example, if I have somebody who is experiencing mania, they're not going to tell me something as a problem, oftentimes, right, you know, kind of, again, is a kind of generalization. When people experience mania, oftentimes, they feel amazing, right? They feel very on top of the world, not all the time, but for many folks. And they don't want an intervention at that point. And the thing that I'm always weighing right is the idea of, can you be safe at this point, right? Like art, what kinds of risks are you taking, for example? And what are ways that like, I need to intervene to help you just live your best life but take more of a harm reduction approach here, right like to keep you on track so that you're doing okay, the least amount of harm happens. But it's I think it's very tricky because so much of this stuff is relative and I honestly don't know if I have a great answer to Your question because of how murky things get around this piece. And so I think maybe my best advice around it is to say, take the lead of your client and know that they know themselves best and will inform you if something's an issue.
Katie Vernoy 30:12
Yeah, yeah, I think the the thought process that I've heard a number of different times and in my travels and learning about psychosis, is being able to inhabit the world where your client is, and then kind of slowly assess what is real and not real with the client from the clients perspective. And, and to me, I feel like that can be very, very challenging, because I think there's so much bias that comes into how we perceive the world that it's can be hard to truly take the lead of the client, do you have advice on how to how to do that when when it's not like, Oh, you have a different opinion for me, but it's like, Oh, your, your reality is different than mine.
Maggie Mullen 30:54
It's tough. It's really, it can be very challenging, because again, we have two different systems of training, right. So like, I have my beliefs around strengths based approach, following the lead of the client, like they are the expert on their own life that we get. And then there are things like being a mandated reporter, right, and like, needing to assess for risk and safety and things that my agency requires. And those are often at odds with each other, I think with a psychosis with the idea that I approach that really, by trying to be as transparent as possible with my clients coming into treatment around what their experience might be like, and maybe the way that I'm documenting things in my notes, right, and like trying to more educate them and say, Okay, so your doctor is going to talk about your delusions, your ideas of reference, etc. Here's what that means. Now, what's the language that you and I are going to use to describe that type of stuff that is affirming to you, and that is recognizing your experience as unique? And I try to take a bit of that perspective around all of this, because I think we can't necessarily fight the existing system. We have without I think, like working around it in that kind of way. So I don't know if that answers your question. Exactly, Katie,
Katie Vernoy 32:07
Yeah, no, that totally answers my question. Thank you.
Curt Widhalm 32:09
And I think your last couple of answers have really demonstrated why the DBT approach to psychosis fits so naturally, yeah. And I think is where your book probably just came very naturally in this whole process.
Maggie Mullen 32:27
It did it well. And I'll tell you, I didn't start out to write a book. Because I don't know, I didn't ever think of myself as somebody who's a writer, or even frankly, like training. But I got recruited to write a book because I was doing something it was a bit more innovative in this approach to working with psychosis. And the funny part is, one of the things that came up really frequently, just as kind of an aside is getting messages about people with psychosis don't read, right? There isn't a market for this. And it first of all, that's, that's very discriminatory. Yeah, for lack of a better term wrong. It's awful. And I think part of the reason people assume that A is because of stigma, and you know, wrong beliefs about people with psychosis, but also because there are literally aren't any other books written for people that are self help books for somebody with psychosis. And, you know, we have a wonderful books on the market for loved ones, or families or mental health providers working with psychosis, but almost nothing that is geared for the experience of somebody with a psychotic spectrum disorder to say, you take control of your own experience, right, you get to be educated and learn and be offered skills. And I think in particular, with psychosis, the other thing that we know is that most people with psychosis don't get mental health treatment, right, they don't either have access to it, they don't want it or they don't have providers who are, you know, competent in providing, as we talked about before. And so this book, obviously, is not a substitute for therapy. But it's a way to really, I think, democratize these skills to say, I want to get these out to you in a form of offering that's less than $20. And so I always encourage people to seek treatment as part of that book. But this is just one way to kind of get that message out there. So that's part of kind of the journey that led me to writing the book is just wanting to make sure people had access to these skills one way or the other, essentially,
Katie Vernoy 34:16
are there differences and how DBT skills are used when you are learned when you have psychosis as part of the the makeup.
Maggie Mullen 34:25
So the actual skills themselves are really identical to Marsha Linehan's work, right. And I really respect her work. And for me, I did not want to stray away from what the model is because the model is really effective. We're seeing more research now around full DBT treatment programs serving people with psychosis, but that's still kind of emerging literature. And Marsha Linehan, and her book actually even talks a bit about that. But to go back to your question, I think, part of what we do need to do when we're kind of, you know, adapting or kind of shifting. The way we teach DBT skills for these clients is to do a few things. One is to make them really concrete. so that there's just really straightforward information, there's not a lot of psychological jargon, right? Things that are just very straightforward. We also want to make sure that whatever we're offering is accessible. Because, you know, as we talked about a little bit before, you know, rates have been on, you know, for example, like SSI, so like being on a fixed income are really high amongst people with psychosis. So people don't have a lot of money. A lot of folks are marginally housed don't have stable housing or food access. And so we want to make things that are really accessible, right? You know, there's a DBT skill about going on a brief vacation, for example, we have to talk about, what does that actually practically look like in the life of somebody who has who's getting 700 ollars? a month, right? Like, what does that look like? So we want to adapt the examples to actually be a reflection of their personal experience as part of that as well. But otherwise, I think the skills really kind of match on well to the experience of psychosis.
Curt Widhalm 35:53
We've mentioned your book a couple of times, I think it's fair for us to actually name it. So dialectical behavior therapy skills, workbook for psychosis. We'll put a link to that in our show notes. But where else can people find out about you and the work that you're doing?
Maggie Mullen 36:12
So first is my website, which is Maggie mullen.com. I'm on Instagram. I'm working on building that following. It's Maggie Mullen, LCSW W there. And those are the main pieces you can contact me and reach me my direct contact information is there. I really am trying right now to put the work out again of this more progressive approach to treating psychosis into the world and doing a lot of consulting and training with agencies. So that's definitely something that I'm always excited about doing with new folks.
Curt Widhalm 36:40
And we will include links to Maggie's websites and Instagram handle over in our show notes. You can find those at MTS g podcast.com. And you can follow our social media come and let us know about your experiences and getting trained or poorly trained in working with psychosis. Come in and be a part of our Facebook community, the modern therapist group, and until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy And Maggie Mullen.
Katie Vernoy 37:10
Thanks again to our sponsor, Buying Time
Curt Widhalm 37:12
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Katie Vernoy 37:41
book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need. That's buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation once again, buying time llc.com forward slash book dash consultation.
Announcer 37:57
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Which Theoretical Orientation Should You Choose? Curt and Katie chat about how therapists typically select their clinical theoretical orientation for treatment. We look at the different elements of theoretical orientation (including case conceptualization, treatment interventions, and common factors), what impacts our choices, the importance of having a variety of clinical models to draw from, the types of practices that focus on only one clinical theory, and suggestions about how to approach choosing your theories for treatment, including some helpful assessments.
In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists pick their theoretical orientation We received a couple of requests to talk about clinical theoretical orientation and how Curt and Katie chose their own. We tackle this question in depth:
Choosing a clinical theoretical orientation * The problem with the term “eclectic” when describing a clinical orientation * How Curt and Katie each define their clinical orientations * “Multi-modal” therapy
The different elements of clinical orientations * Case conceptualization * Treatment interventions * Common Factors and what actually makes therapy work
What impacts which theoretical orientation we choose as therapists * Clinical supervision * Training * Personal values and alignment with a theoretical orientation * Common sense (what makes sense to you logically) * Choosing interventions that you like
The importance of having a variety of clinical theories that you can draw from
“You need to know the theories well enough to know when not to use them”
– Curt Widhalm
- Comprehensive understanding is required to be able to apply and know when not to apply a clinical orientation
- Avoid fitting a client’s presentation into your one clinical orientation
- Deliberate, intentional use of different orientations
Why some therapy practices operate with a single clinical model * Comprehensive Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT) therapists run their practices and their lives with DBT principals * Going deeply into a very specific theory (like DBT, EMDR, EFT, etc.) while you learn it * Researchers are more likely to be singularly focused on one theory
Suggestions on How to Approach Choosing Your Clinical Theoretical Orientation
“Theoretical orientation actually can be very fluid over time” – Katie Vernoy
- Obtain a comprehensive understanding of the theoretical orientation
- Understand the theory behind the interventions
- Recognizing when to use a very specific theory or when you can be more “eclectic” in your approach
- Deciding how fluid you’d like to be with your theoretical orientation
- Find what gels with you and do more of that
- The ability to pretty dramatically shift your theoretical orientation later in your career
Instruments for Choosing a Theoretical Orientation * Theoretical Orientation Scale (Smith, 2010) * Counselor Theoretical Position Scale
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Buying Time LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Institute for Creative Mindfulness
Very Bad Therapy Podcast
Petko, Kendrick and Young (2016): Selecting a Theory of Counseling: What influences a counseling student to choose?
What is the Best Type of Therapy Elimination Game
The Practice of Multimodal Therapy by Arnold A. Lazarus
Poznanski and McClennan (2007): Measuring Counsellor Theoretical Orientation
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Unlearning Very Bad Therapy
Interview with Dr. Diane Gehart: An Incomplete List of Everything Wrong with Therapist Education
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the modern therapist Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time is a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist.
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:35
You're listening to the modern therapist survival guide where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:51
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about how we are as therapists. And we have received a couple of requests for in episodes about how people select their theoretical orientations. And I think that this is a great opportunity for us to maybe gear an episode a little bit more towards early career therapists, some of the students who listened to our show, but also for those of you who are maybe a little bit later in your practice to consider how you came up with your theoretical orientation or orientations. And we're gonna dive into a little bit of our stories about this, but also what some of the research ends up saying about how a lot of therapists end up practicing in the way that they do. So, Katie, from the top of the show, what are your orientations? And how did you get to where you are?
Katie Vernoy 01:54
I think the the word that probably best describes my orientation is one that I was told not to use because it was bad, which was eclectic,
Curt Widhalm 02:06
eclectic
Katie Vernoy 02:07
ecelctic!
Curt Widhalm 02:08
lazy eclectics.
Katie Vernoy 02:11
And I think it's, it's not exactly true. But I really feel like I draw from a lot of orientations. A lot of models, maybe it's better than orientations, where there are a lot of really cool interventions that I like from CBT DBT narrative, even psychodynamic or Gestalt, or different things like that. There's a lot of really cool interventions that I've been able to kind of pick up in my my toolbox or tool tool belt over the years. And so to me, when we talk about orientation, and maybe this is a question to ask, I would say, I'm probably mostly existential, and certainly relational. And, and that's kind of where I sit. I think with orientation, though, there's how you conceptualize a case, how you treat a client's you know, so, orientation feels like a very broad thing, where case conceptualization seems more like okay, that's my that's how I'm orienting myself to a case specific interventions, I think tie to theoretical orientations. But I once had a supervisor say, pretty much all theories are the same. They just use different words, people want to make money. And orientations are different, but I feel like you can you can mix and match pretty well.
Curt Widhalm 03:33
And on that point, you're talking about Bruce Wampold's common factors that soar looking at therapeutic treatment where theoretical orientation affects treatment about 1%. Maybe some of the emphasis of where some of these questions are coming from is our therapists, education, emphasis on every class being about orientation, really not looking at the other 99% of what actually makes therapy work? Yes. Now, like you, maybe Unlike you, I look at myself not as a dirty eclectic therapist, but as a very intentional, multimodal therapist.
Katie Vernoy 04:19
Oh, my goodness, words, words.
Curt Widhalm 04:24
So, like you, I also end up using a lot of CBT. In my practice, I'm also drawn to existentialism, and very much utilize a lot of EMDR work which, for the EMDR people that I trained with over at the Institute of creative mindfulness, we really look at EMDR as being the greatest hits of a lot of other therapeutic styles that got it just naturally pulls from a number of different areas. But when we first got these cases, My first reaction was kind of, I wonder how much of how we practice is based in who our supervisors were and how they practiced at, you know, kind of a developmental stage of where we were at in becoming therapists. And if that's just stuff that because we were forced to practice in a way for a while, if that's why we continue to practice that once we're out on our own, and I'm wondering how much of that rings true for your story here.
Katie Vernoy 05:34
It certainly rings true for me, I think about some of the newer clinicians and certainly talking to like Carrie Wiita and Ben Fineman over it. Very bad therapy, it seems like they're more thoughtful than we are, or than I was anyway, when I was coming up. But I found myself trying to soak everything in and I had a psychodynamic supervisor and a CBT supervisor when I first started, and then I went into community mental health, it's very behavioral and, and CBT oriented, with some, you know, trauma informed, you know, different things that kind of layered in there. But I did find that the supervisor made a big difference if they had a strong orientation, because I that's how they framed everything. And that's why I think I, when I say the case, conceptualizations are oftentimes more along the lines of like psychodynamic or CBT. I think it's because that was how I was trained. The other piece that I was really lucky is that I also had a group supervision with several folks who are narrative, and they would talk about their cases from a narrative perspective, and would provide feedback on some of the cases that I was working on from a narrative perspective. And so I feel like there's some narrative that came in early enough that that was something that also I added to the pool. But it wasn't something I learned in school, I think it was newer, you know, I was getting ready to get licensed at that time. So to me, I feel like the people around us, primarily the supervisor, but also potentially even, you know, our colleagues in our group supervision can really impact how we see cases how we've, you know, kind of the types of interventions we try, and therefore our orientation.
Curt Widhalm 07:22
I don't know that I can tell you my supervisors orientation from my trainee years, maybe that speaks to the quality of supervision that was being given at the time, potentially, but I, I largely agree with you in the what did end up shaping up out at the time was the other people who were part of my supervision groups and kind of being pushed into recognizing that we were naturally drawn to some techniques, whether we knew it or not. Looking at a 2016 article from the universal Journal of Psychology, this is by Pepco, Kendrick and Jung, and aptly titled selecting a theory of counseling, what influences it counseling students to choose?
Katie Vernoy 08:13
Very good, very appropriate, Good, find, Curt!
Curt Widhalm 08:16
Good find Curt. They came up with three categories that probably worth exploring here a little bit for ourselves, the first topic on here does not necessarily fall into that I practice this way because my supervisor practices this way. And in fact, none of these three do. The first one is the counseling theory is similar to my personal value system. And
Katie Vernoy 08:43
that's where I remember because we did that orientation game. What was that called? With Carrie and Ben and Ben?
Curt Widhalm 08:51
Oh, the elimination game?
Katie Vernoy 08:53
Yeah, yeah. And I just I hear Ben talking about how amazing narrative is. And it seemed like it was so aligned with his values and stuff like that. I was like, I don't know that I was that thoughtful when I was in that stage of my my development.
Curt Widhalm 09:09
It's something where I really expect our audience to resonate with this one, just because we do talk about value systems as such an important factor of the work that we do, and that obviously should be reflected in the work that you do with your clients and make sense as far as how that would carry over as, as an extension of yourself and your personality to make the therapeutic alliance work. I think it's better done when it's intentional, maybe not in the way that you're describing of like looking for justification five years after a journal article is published to be like, Yeah, that's what I did. But to really be able to clarify, it's like you're giving credit to Ben for doing it. As far as saying, These are my values, this is a theory that ends up reflecting what those are. And I think that there are going to be certain theories that end up lending themselves to that more easily than others. Things like narrative therapy, where it really does have more of a social justice aspects to it. Yeah, as compared to something like behaviorism, which is going to be very much about pushing people to certain measurable outcomes, unless that's who you are as a person and why you don't get invited to dinner parties?
Katie Vernoy 10:38
Well, I think that there are things that I was trained as a therapist 20 years ago. And I think that there are, there are limitations on some of the research that was available 20 years ago, and so even if I were to come up now, I don't know that I would spend a lot of time on CBT, just based on, you know, kind of the limited transfer across different cultures and that kind of stuff, I think that there are great interventions, and I've kind of learned over the years, especially in working in a lot of different multicultural and cross cultural environments, how to make those adjustments and kind of what to hold to and what not to, but I think that there are, are definitely different pieces of information around orientation and kind of our personal value systems that I think, is a constant or a continual assessment. I don't know that, you know, I don't know that there's, you know, it kind of goes to that, like, what's what's been indoctrinated and what needs to be unlearned, and kind of the whole decolonizing therapy, but I think that there's, there's definitely things that feel inherently true to me, because of when I learned about them and and how they were just kind of organically fold it in. And I would have liked to have that assessment that personal values assessment around which theory fits best for me early enough on so I'm glad we're talking about it, hopefully, the students are going to do those assessments for themselves. But, um, but I don't know that I even thought to do it, because it was, you know, everything was kind of a truism. Like, this is what psychology is, you know, back in the olden days, when I was trained.
Curt Widhalm 12:20
And you what you're leading into, is this second on this list, which is people to series, because it's what makes sense logically, yeah, it's, oh, I can see how a leads to B leads to C. And this might lead to some more of those directive type therapies and CBT being an example of this, where but I think in, it's not just let me get to CBT. It's also being able to look at anything from a comprehensive way. And as much as I know, students, and really anybody else hates doing case conceptualizations it's an important factor to be able to see this is how people fit logically into this set of patterns as described by this theory. Historically, I have seen some pushback from educators and supervisors as far as this approach when it comes to trying to make clients fit into a theory, rather than hearing the client stories. And this is where I think most educators, most researchers when it comes to this, and we'll put some citations in the show notes. But people like Lazarus, Norcross and golden freed, all talk about the importance of learning a variety of theories. So that way you can shift to when clients don't fit a particular one that you're still able to practice in a way that makes sense for them. So having some theories that do make sense to you make sense. But don't, don't fall just into the logic trap of everything needs to follow into this set of patterns.
Katie Vernoy 14:05
Completely agree. And I want to just acknowledge that what makes sense to you may be what you were trained, which I think ties back into, it makes sense to me because that's what my supervisor taught me. And that's how the, the practice of doing therapy, this is what it is, and this is what makes sense to me. The follow on to that is the importance of either having a supervisor that has this kind of palette of different orientations and teaches to all of them and and has that as part of your supervision or having a number of different supervisors across your internship or trainee years or your associate years so that you can get your own perspective on something versus this is how it logically fits into the model I was trained by my one supervisor.
Curt Widhalm 15:02
And this is getting a comprehensive understanding, not just not just like, oh, we covered this in class last week, and I should try this out on clients. And here's parts of it that work. And because it worked, it made sense to me. But it does take a ability to get in to the depths. And I've always kind of naturally described this as you need to know the theories well enough to know when not to use them. And knowing that you should be able to shift to something else is the level of depth that you need to know. And rather than just forcing clients to do something, because the theory says that it should work means that you're maybe not quite there yet. And that's where having a more comprehensive understanding of switching between theories, or utilizing aspects of different theories, together with intention definitely helps out.
Katie Vernoy 16:04
Oh, for sure, I think to me, I see folks that are very immersed in a single theory, or a single orientation. And I think there are reasons to do that. I don't want to say anything negative about folks who do that. But to me, that wouldn't fit for me, because I would have to refer clients out who I could serve with a different theory. But specifically, I'm talking, the most frequent one that I see are, are people who are like doing comprehensive DBT. And that's their whole practice. And then there's also folks that end up doing a lot of EMDR, I feel like that's become less because there's so many people that have been trained in EMDR at this point or anything. But the DBT thing, it requires a lot to set up, you have to have a consultation team. You know, if you're doing comprehensive stuff, you have to have a group with CO leaders, there's a specific way you run your individual session. And it works really well for the folks that works for. And I think that the comprehensive DBT therapists who only do DBT would argue they know who it's not for, and they refer them out. For me, I don't think I'd be comfortable with that. But I think the level of knowledge to determine that, I think is is higher than I think some folks who initially come into a single theory, and maybe this is where the question came from is I need to have my orientation. And it's like, should I become an EMDR? therapist, or a DBT? therapist, or a CBT? therapist or a blank right? kind of therapist? And I think very few people end up with just one orientation, I believe. I think when someone's learning an orientation, you know, and I've seen this with like EFT folks, they go really deep into it. It's like they have, you know, at least a portion of their practices only EFT. I think that there is there is a and I'm talking about Emotionally Focused Therapy, not Emotional Freedom Techniques. Right? I understand there's two FTEs. But But I think that there's a necessity when you're digging deep into a very specific theory maybe to focus in on it. But I really like this idea of having that palette of orientations and intervention so that you can shift when it makes it makes sense. But what would you say for folks who are single theory that there is a different developmental stage? Or do you feel like it's folks that have a different style? Like, where does that fit? Do you think?
Curt Widhalm 18:41
You know, it's interesting that you talk about the DBT therapists, and when I talk with other therapists and in the community, and some of you are listeners of the show it sometimes I get accused of being a DBT therapist, I know I heard that recently. And I liked DBT, I've done some workshops towards, you know, learning DBT a lot of it, a lot of it makes sense. I'm not trained in DBT. But just the way that I understand where these comments are coming from is for a lot of DBT therapists, it's also ways that you run your life, and it's ways that fall into that first category of almost being value based. And with the bonus of things making sense. And also with the the third category here that we'll be leading into in just a moment, but it's a very comprehensive structured package that also immerses the clinician in needing to be in that lifestyle, too. I don't see this with other theories quite to the same extent. You know, I think they you bring up EMDR I think that there's a very big mindfulness component of it that the good EMDR clinicians that I know tends to exhibit as far as their practice. I don't necessarily see it when it comes to some of the more directive therapies that I don't see solution oriented therapists being like, standing in front of the the milk cartons in the grocery store being like, this one is an eight out of 10 solution, but this one over here is a nine out of 10 solution. Maybe they do, maybe it's just internal, I don't know. And, but the people that I really do see, stuck very much into single theories really aren't practitioners, it's researchers. And it's people whose research is based on needing to stay within a particular theory. And, you know, while I do have respect for the CBT therapists out there, it's those people who are like, well, everything's CBT, you know, that's just, you know, CBT with this or equine therapy is just CBT with more horsepower, or, but our third category is that people choose theories because they like techniques, or they like interventions that come from that theory. And it may not be the most comprehensive way of choosing a theory, it might be something that you find that a particular set of interventions works for certain situations. It's from just that description of it go further than that, like yes, yes, you know, you can't be in the middle of psychodynamic and being like, you know, what, we need some intermittent reinforcement right here. But it can be a place that starts you into getting more of that comprehensive look at a theory if what you find is that a certain technique ends up working, learn more about the theory. So that way, you can understand how it fits comprehensively in the explanation for why a client's pattern of behaviors or outlook on the world may be influenced or susceptible to being changed by that kind of an intervention.
Katie Vernoy 22:13
As you were talking, the thing that came to mind, for me, was the validity of this kind of construct. So I'm getting really far afield. So we'll see if this bears fruit. But there are some theoretical orientations that feel very rich, they feel like they have a lot to them, that you can really dig your teeth into them. They're a way of conceptualizing a case with potential suggested interventions or ways of being with the client in the room. And there are others that feel a little bit more stilted or really based on someone trying to put stuff together. So they can prove a point with their research or a slight change to something that's already present and all of that. So I guess I'm kind of pushing back on, needing to have a really in depth understanding of all of the orientations. And I know, you didn't say that, but like, there's some of this where I think about how I actually work. And I, it's almost kind of a post hoc description, saying that I'm existential, or I use narrative, or I've got psychodynamic or or CBT, or DBT, or whatever. Like, to me, it's something where and this is potentially more of a later career situation. And I'm sure you experienced this too. I have absorbed so much knowledge from so many different continuing education, things, different clinical consoles, and conversations. That to me, and this kind of talks about, I think what Diane was putting forward is that there's so many orientations at this point that it's gotten ridiculous. And so she's simplifying it doing something and we'll, we'll put Dr. Gehart's episode in our show notes, the link to it, but, but to me, I feel like there's so much I've absorbed so much that is similar. It's so much that goes together. And maybe this is about making sense and having techniques. And so it's not the strongest way to do it. But I don't know that I'm ever consciously thinking, Well, I'm going to approach this client with CBT to start and then we'll see if it goes into something else. Like I feel like I'm meeting the client. I'm hearing what they have to say I'm conceptualizing it probably from two or three or four different theories because they kind of all melded into one. And then I'm doing interventions based on my conceptualization, but it doesn't necessarily tie and maybe this just is lazy. eclectics eclecticism but it doesn't necessarily apply. Like I'm going to start with this orientation and move to this one then move to this one and that feels to in a box for me and how I actually practice.
Curt Widhalm 24:52
I think that with practice, it ends up becoming where, when you're versed in a couple of different theories, you see that certain things are going to be better approached in certain ways. If a client's coming to me, the intake phone call is to deal with trauma, I'm immediately going to go to my trauma modalities. First, as far as how I'm listening for the story developing, somebody is coming to me for something like obsessive compulsive disorder, I'm pretty much going to be going to what's an exposure and Response Prevention Plan. Part of these are where research shows some of the effectiveness part of this is really being able to look at how things make sense. And honestly, for me, part of it is how am I going to be most effective at utilizing something that I can be decently good at some theories that research shows, you know, 95% of people who get CBT by this are fixed by this. But if it doesn't fit with how and how I think about the approach, it's something where I may only be 75%, effective using CBT, with something where I might be 93% effective with something else. Yeah. And so part of that also does look at the influence of who I am. And one of the people that really led the way, as far as this kind of thing is one of those people who had a theory, and that was Milton Erickson, who was largely just kind of seen as it was his relationship with his clients. And yeah, he did a lot of strategic therapy work, but it ended up being him pulling from stuff that worked in the moment because that's what worked for him and the relationship that he had with his clients. So I
Katie Vernoy 26:49
guess the point that I wanted to make with that a new just kind of set it in a different way. But I want to make sure we're on the same page is it can be very fluid, it doesn't need to be I start with a conceptualization that is tied to one theory. And I make a treatment plan that's tied to that theory. And then if it needs to shift, I shift to a different theory. It's really to me it feels way more fluid than that. And like I said, I'm existentialist I'm, I'm a Yalom existentialist where it's really just about the relationship and being a real person in the room. So it gives me a lot of freedom to conceptualize things differently. But I think it's hard to describe it to someone that's just starting out when they're like, Okay, what do I do in therapy, and it's like, we'll be in the room, see what's happening with the client, and provide them what they need. I mean, like, that's kind of how I that's, that's my orientation.
Curt Widhalm 27:45
So I do want to point out that there are a handful of different instruments that are out there that you can look at, take it with a grain of salt. You might talk about the ways that you might view the importance of aspects that might steer you in the direction of looking at theories that might more naturally come to you. A couple that we've come across in preparation for this episode. One is the theoretical orientation scale, developed by Smith in 2010. It's 76 questions that you fill out Likert scale types, you score it, it points you to sub scales that might fall across a couple of different theories that you might want to look at. Another one is a 40 item scale called the counselor theoretical position scale. This was developed by Posnanski. And McClellan, either of these might be things where if you're looking for a questionnaire that is based on where you're kind of already existing, as a person might steer you into some directions to more easily find, I might want to research this more, you get into practicing that way, you might find that it continues to gel with you, you might find that parts of it gel with you. But if you're looking for a little bit more of a direction, if you're not quite familiar with a number of different theories, yet, these might be some starting places for you to look at as well.
Katie Vernoy 29:15
And I think the takeaway that I want folks to have or a takeaway that I want them to have is that theoretical orientation actually can be very fluid over over time, you can start with, I really want to dig into narrative and you do narrative therapy with a lot of your clients. you conceptualize it that way. Maybe you have a few other things that you're doing in the background and not just adhering to one theory. But over time, there may be something else that comes down the pike. You do a training on Emotionally Focused Therapy EFT I have a lot of people that they later in their career, start sending EFT and they're like I'm completely changing how I'm working. This is an awesome way to work with couples or even individually EFT or you Find DVT later and you start digging into that, and you really understand the conceptualization, those things. I think people get really freaked out. And part of it is, I think, the interview questions. I've even designed them, like, what is your theoretical orientation? Like, I think people get freaked out that they have to choose an orientation, and that sets them up for the rest of their career. And I don't think that's true. I think that they there there is certainly foundational work that may stick with you forever. And so you don't want to be mindless about what you choose to focus your attention on at the beginning of your career. But I think it is something where it does shift, you're going to be impacted by research that hasn't even been done or theories that haven't even been concocted yet. And so I think find things that gel with you I'll use your word there and and dig into them, but but don't fear that you're going to be locked into a particular orientation for the rest of your career you You most likely won't be,
Curt Widhalm 30:54
we'd love to hear how you came up with your theories or further questions that you might have the best place that you can do that is over in our Facebook group, the modern therapist group. You can follow us on our social media and we'll include links to those as well as the articles and measurements and citations in our show notes. You can find those at MTS g podcast.com. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy
Katie Vernoy 31:22
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Curt Widhalm 31:25
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Katie Vernoy 31:54
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Announcer 32:09
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
The January 2022 Surprise of Good Faith Estimates Requirements Curt and Katie chat about the No Surprises Act, specifically how to navigate the requirement for clinicians to provide Good Faith Estimates to clients. We talk about the impact of Good Faith Estimates on the intake process, potential complications when providing these estimates to your patients, and suggestions for how to simplify and systemize this requirement.
In this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide we talk about the No Surprises Act and the Good Faith Estimate Requirement When we heard about the planned implementation of these new requirements, we decided to dive into the legislation and articles from professional associations to understand what we actually need to do starting January 1, 2022.
What is the No Surprises Act and the Good Faith Estimate (GFE) Requirement?
“Some folks don't have a clear sense when they come into therapy, how long they're going to be there for.” – Katie Vernoy
- The goal of the No Surprises legislation is to avoid surprising patients with large medical bills
- There are benefits and challenges with the requirement to provide good faith estimates to our clients
- The Good Faith Estimate requirement is to provide the estimated cost of services (fee times number of sessions) at the beginning of treatment (if asked) and at least annually, if needed
How will the Good Faith Estimate Requirement impact the Intake Process for Therapy?
“These are not contracts; this is not guaranteeing the therapy is going to end after that many sessions.” – Curt Widhalm
- We are required to determine whether someone is hoping to get insurance reimbursement
- We must communicate the ability to obtain a written good faith estimate from providers
- We are required to estimate the number of sessions and total cost of treatment
- We talk about when you may need to provide a new good faith estimate (and explain changes)
- We provided a suggestion to start with a GFE for the intake session and then provide a second GFE after that initial session
Potential Complications Curt and Katie see for Therapists Providing Good Faith Estimates * The requirement for diagnosis very early in treatment * The requirement for a diagnosis written on paper – both for folks who don’t know or have not asked before, as well as for folks who do not want a written diagnosis * Concerns related to putting forward the total cost of therapy for the year * The elements of bureaucracy that could negatively impact the therapeutic relationship * The No Surprises Act legislation isn’t finalized and may have additional components or changes
Our Suggestions to Systematize the Good Faith Estimate (GFE) Requirement for Therapists
“There are certain aspects of this that I think - while onerous as far as communication with our clients - have the potential to make us actually talk with our clients about their treatment more frequently.” – Curt Widhalm
- Consider coordinating the timeline for updating GFEs, treatment plans, frequency of sessions, progress in treatment, and a reassessment of the sliding scale
- Think through how you talk about diagnosis and treatment planning ahead of time
- The idea to create some sort of mechanism for folks to either decline a GFE or to request an oral versus paper GFE
- Use recommended language to create your notice for your office as well as on your website
- Create your own template to simplify the process, including a boiler plate GFE for your intake
- Create a template for GFEs for on-going treatment
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
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Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
APA Article: New Billing Disclosure Requirements Take Effect in 2022
Suggested Notification Language for Good Faith Estimates
Template for a Good Faith Estimate
Good Faith Estimate Legislation Language from the No Surprises Act
Federal Register: Requirements Related to Surprise Billing; Part II
CMS.gov: Requirements Related to Surprise Billing; Part II, Interim Final Rule with comment period
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Should Private Practice Therapists Take Insurance?
Make your Paperwork Meaningful
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is brought to you by simplified SEO consulting.
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
Curt Widhalm 00:21
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Announcer 00:26
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:41
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast where we talk about things that affect therapists, our practices, the ways that we practice the ways that we interact with clients and stay I'm going to start by talking about back when I was in high school, I had to take chemistry class, and studying the periodic table.
Katie Vernoy 01:08
Where are you going with this?
Curt Widhalm 01:10
My favorite element at the time was tungsten because will W on its butt over time, my new favorite element is the element of surprise.
Katie Vernoy 01:26
Surprise!
Curt Widhalm 01:27
I think actually, a lot of providers are surprised at the no surprises Act, which we're actually talking about today, going into effect January 1 of 2022. And many people have been over the last couple of weeks, speculating on what this means for their practices, what actions that they need to take. And it's seeming to get to be a little bit of a game of telephone out there in therapy land when seeing everybody talk on Facebook groups and this kind of stuff. So Katie, and I have done an adequate job of diving into this. And how to
Katie Vernoy 02:10
Adequate is the right word, I think.
Curt Widhalm 02:13
So we wanted to be able to talk about the big scary aspects of this, the not so scary aspects of this, and the parts of this that are TBD, because it's not even fully out there yet. And much like the Spanish Inquisition, nobody knows when it's coming. So. So we are going to include some helpful things in our show notes, you can find those over at MCSG podcast comm. I'm sure we'll be doing a follow up episode to this a little bit later, we will also include a whole bunch of very boring and dense government regulations in those show notes as well. So that way, you know that we at least can link to other things in our show notes.
Katie Vernoy 03:09
We've already started off great, very adequate Curt, very adequate.
Curt Widhalm 03:13
Yes. So probably the best resource out there, at least as far as condensing down a bunch of
Katie Vernoy 03:22
At the type of recording.
Curt Widhalm 03:24
Yes there is an article from the American Psychological Association originally created December 10 2021, that outlines what this means for psychologists. But if you are a healthcare provider of any other status, and you are operating within your license or your credential, this article pretty much applies to you too. So we're going to go through this, we're going to add little bits here in there and also make some suggestions that aren't included in this article. And continue to listen to the show and join our Facebook group for further updates on any of the stuff that we're talking about here today as we find important stuff to share. So now, actually, to the content of the show, if you haven't left yet, but the no surprises Act was part of a broad package that was signed into law during the Trump administration. This was a bipartisan bill. And this was really to be a very consumer friendly bill that prevents patients from getting surprise billing. Now, if anybody's ever been in kind of an emergency situation before, what you'll know is that you don't get a whole lot of time to be in the hospital and ask every single provider Hey, are you in my insurance network? Is this going to be covered that it's kind of just who you And not every person who's working on you is necessarily in network, not necessarily an employee of the hospital. And so what ends up happening is that all of your your treatment stuff gets submitted to insurance companies. And then, like Spanish Inquisition, surprise, there's bills that show up in the manual. And this is generally not seen as very consumer friendly, because people don't know what's coming. Yes. Having been on the receiving ends of those kinds of treatments myself in the past. Now, I kind of like where this bill is going, being a healthcare provider, in my own little practice, not liking where this is going. Because there is a lot of regulations that are being added into this that while intended very well, for kind of emergency situations are fields a little bit different.
Katie Vernoy 06:03
Yes. And I think that for private pay providers, there can be times when folks are surprised, not by Oh, the anesthesiologist wasn't in your network. And this extra special treatment that happened because of you were under sedation, cost $27,000. But it is something where some folks don't have a clear sense when they come into therapy, how long they're going to be there for. I think, as a profession, I think we're very good at making sure someone understands the fee before they come into the first session. They know what they're going to be charged when they sit down with us. I think the part that feels both, I guess positive, but also onerous is having to say like, Hey, this is how long your treatment is going to be. This is what it's going to cost and, and giving so much information. I mean, it's it's a lot of information that you're having to provide very early in treatment to a client. And they basically will hold you to it, and then they're given information that they can hold you to it if if it does shift, too, dramatically. So I see that I see the point. But I also see that it's going to be a lot of work. Especially I think just to set it up, I think that there's a way to systematize it. And we can talk about that when we have our kind of discussion around suggestions later. But to begin, it's going to take some work.
Curt Widhalm 07:32
And so the main crux of what you're talking about here is providing clients with a good faith estimate. Yes. Before we get into what the good faith estimate is, let's talk a little bit about the intake phone call with clients. Because I think certain aspects of this, many providers are doing in one way or another where in many jurisdictions were required to discuss our fees with clients before they come into our first session. Yes, it's, you know, no surprises. It's not that they're showing up in our office, it and then all of a sudden being like, wait, what that we yeah, do provide that, usually verbally in an intake phone call, what that good faith estimate now adds to our work is in that intake phone call, we need to start having language around, are you planning to submit a claim to your insurance company for the services that you're going to receive for me, those of you who are in network with insurance companies, that's all to be determined in the future. As far as how that works with insurance companies, we're really talking to those cash paying clients, those out of network therapists, those who provide super bills, if you have a hybrid practice, half, listen to this, turn off the insurance side of your brain. But in that initial phone call, you need to ask clients, are you planning to submit this for a claim? Now, the way that most of us are already doing this is around this language Trooper bills? Hey, do you want a super bill for our services?
Katie Vernoy 09:11
And I also do "Do you want me to do courtesy billing" and actually take the reins on, you know, kind of getting insurance information and that kind of stuff? So I think those of us who are that have a sizable portion of our practices that are private pay, navigate this, but there are some clients that come in never discuss insurance. And I think that the the shift that I'm going to make us I'm going to ask that directly versus kind of allowing it to organically happen in conversation because if somebody comes says, What's your fee? I say $200. They say okay, like, I don't necessarily take that extra step. All the time about that. I mean, sometimes they'll say, you know, do you have insurance benefits? And do you want me to do courtesy billing or would you like a super bill, but I've not been diligent about For folks that don't seem interested, so at this point, we have to ask the question, we have to know about that. I don't know what we do with that information, but we just have to ask, we have to know, that's probably more of the to be determined.
Curt Widhalm 10:12
Well, so from the APA article, what we do after asking if they intend to submit a claim to their insurance is inform them, that they can get a good faith estimate of the expected charges, and that we can provide it to them in a written document if they want. And that needs to include things like a CPT codes, the the billing code for those service sessions that you're intending to do, it needs to include information about the client on it, and the anticipated number of sessions. Yeah, and I think that this is a part where I'm seeing some of the chatter in the therapist community around. Some of the conversations are well, what if people hold us to, you know, you said, this was gonna take 20 sessions, and it took 40. These are not contracts, this is not guaranteeing the therapy is going to end after that many sessions. And I suggest being clear with clients about that, that, yes, as far as I can tell from this vantage point, if you follow treatment, if things go, Well, this should take X number of sessions.
Katie Vernoy 11:27
And then I think the other piece, if you truly think it's going to be 20 sessions, I think, put down 20 sessions, if you think it's going to be longer term treatment, I think you you know, you have to do this, it needs to be a good faith estimate for the next 12 months, I think you do it as an annual or to the end of the year. And maybe you do all your good faith estimates in January. But each new year of treatment for each client, you have to do a new good faith estimate. And each time you change the fee, or the cadence of treatment, the way I'm reading it is that you need to then do a new good faith estimate. So if somebody increases the number of sessions, like they go from once a week to twice a week, or they shift from twice a month to one month, you know, like you're gonna want to adjust down. It feels onerous. And I think that there's probably a way to make this pretty streamlined if you have a form and you just are changing that number and that number. But the part up front that I get worried about is that it's supposed to have the clients diagnosis. And we're talking about an intake call where people can request these good faith estimates. And so I'm assuming you put at that point to be assessed or to be diagnosed at the first session or something like to me, it seems like some of the information requested doesn't really hold up when you're just getting a good faith estimate from a potential client.
Curt Widhalm 12:51
Sure. So I'm gonna go back two points that you made and then come to where you're talking about here.
Katie Vernoy 12:57
Okay. Okay.
Curt Widhalm 12:59
Some of us have clients who are lifers, that
Katie Vernoy 13:02
yes, they are Yes, both you and I are in that category.
Curt Widhalm 13:05
So what I intend to do with those clients is, hey, you generally come 50 weeks out of the year, here's your fee for 2022.
Katie Vernoy 13:17
Done,
Curt Widhalm 13:17
Done, there you go.
Katie Vernoy 13:19
Yeah, I think it's supposed to be in a form. But we can argue if it can be verbal, or if it has to be that whole form.
Curt Widhalm 13:27
I'll give them a form. To your second point. I wonder if the implementation for a lot of therapists is very standard going to have the first session be, actually to Bill 90791 as an actual diagnostic interview for your first session, that would have your appropriate rates, go back to our CPT code episode and hear us talk about most therapists don't actually bill for that one. Yeah. But that, I think, actually, if I step back, this whole process might actually make us follow through on things that we're supposed to be doing a little bit better if we're not having formal diagnostic first sessions, if you're concerned about putting a good faith estimate out to a client that you've talked to for about five minutes on the phone, and four minutes of them are about what a good faith estimate is that you can actually create a space to say, here's a good faith estimate of what this first diagnostic session is going to costs. And you'll get a new good faith estimates for our sessions after that session based on what comes out in that diagnostic interview.
Katie Vernoy 14:49
So, private pay providers are now going to have to act a little bit like insurance providers and diagnose in the first session and predict how much treatment is going to be needed.
Curt Widhalm 15:01
yes.
Katie Vernoy 15:03
Welcome!
Curt Widhalm 15:05
well into your other points is, if you, misjudge or if services need to continue, it's not like your relationship with the client just has to stop, you do get to provide new and updated good faith estimates
Katie Vernoy 15:22
Yes
Curt Widhalm 15:22
as anything changes, like you said, if you're going to more sessions a week, if you change your fees mid year, if any number of different things changes, potentially even diagnostics, then you're going to want to provide good faith estimates that are updated. And I would recommend that you put language on those updated ones that this replaces the previous Good Faith Estimate from whatever the previous date is.
Katie Vernoy 15:52
And it does say in the language, and I don't know if this is in the APA article or the actual legislation, but it does say that when you provide a new Good Faith Estimate, you do need to identify what is different. And so if it's, hey, everything's rolling along, same fee, same number of sessions next year, I think it's saying, this is continuing. And it's you know, there's no changes in the fees, no changes in the predicted number of sessions this year, this is for this year. I think for folks where you're changing fees, or dramatically changing the cadence of sessions, I think that would be an important thing to put and definitely like your language of this replaces the previous Good Faith Estimate. One thing I'm thinking about with this is that if you've got a niche that that generally you know, or your lifers that generally have this is how many sessions you have per year. And so maybe it's 48, or 27, or whatever it is, you know, depending on the cadence of their treatment, shifting from every other week, to once a week back to every other week to once a month, like assuming you're kind of still in that number of sessions per year, I think you probably are fine. Changing fees, definitely a good faith estimate. But like if you've said, This is what you're what we were looking at this year. I think that could I think that could work. What do you think?
Curt Widhalm 17:15
I'm not a lawyer?
Katie Vernoy 17:18
Yes, nor am I.
Curt Widhalm 17:21
It's probable, and, you know, any challenges to this are still to be determined. This is all, you know, this is what regulations are going into effect. The HHS has not you know, had any opportunities to enforce any things yet. So we'll wait for somebody to get punished, and then we'll be able to tell you what they're doing. But realistically, it seems like a good faith estimate is exactly that. It's good faith that Yes. Hey, you know, you typically come to three out of four sessions a month, in case you come to more, you know, some months you do make a ball. So good faith, I'm going to put that you're gonna make all of the sessions over the next like five months. And we can evaluate at that point, you know, what's needing to be changed. There are certain aspects of this that I think well onerous, as far as communication with our clients have the potential to make us actually talk with our clients about their treatment more frequently? Yeah. And I think that that's part of what's scary to a lot of therapists is that clients are gonna see, I spend how much on therapy each
Katie Vernoy 18:40
year? I know, that's the part that I'm like, oh, yeah, that's gonna be rough. Most people don't want to think about it.
Curt Widhalm 18:49
I could buy several cars for this. Right? I think if you know, you're not wanting to sticker shock your clients on January 1 With, here's your good faith estimate of 50 sessions at $100 per session, or 200, or 300, whatever your fee is, yeah, that they can see some therapists breaking it down and say, Alright, here's only six months of anticipated treatment. And I'll just put out a new good faith estimate when that one runs out. But I think that that makes us be able to talk about clients progress, as far as what do you think that you need is continued services going forward and to actually review your treatment plans with them more frequently?
Katie Vernoy 19:37
Yeah, I think it's actually a good process to to align this with a treatment plan. I think process wise, I see it as being something like every January 1, I put out my good faith estimate. But I think there's an element to that where, you know, someone coming in in December and then giving a new one to them. January feels silly. So but I do think talking to folks at their treatment plan anniversary, or every six months or whatever your timeline is, and then talking about cadence talking about, you know, how they're feeling, you know, what they're thinking about. I think that's a good process. And I know when I was working in community mental health that was, you know, like, you talked about termination. From the beginning, you know, and I feel differently in private practice, like you might a lot of my clients are lifers, but I think it is, it's really easy to get complacent, when you're just kind of meeting every week, and you're not actually taking the time to look at what are we actually working on? What are you getting from this? You know, what is your financial situation compared to what we're talking about? I mean, for folks that do sliding scale, this could also be an opportunity to SPSS sliding scale and saying, okay, you know, my fee is going to be x January 1, and, you know, this is what you've been paying, you know, is that still appropriate? Are you able to increase towards the, you know, can you decrease the subsidy, so to speak, you know, like, you can have those conversations, it's just a money conversation that a lot of people don't like to have. And so I think this kind of thoughtful, you know, kind of transparent conversation about number of sessions length of treatment, Cadence. And money is important and needed, but pretty uncomfortable for a lot of folks
Curt Widhalm 21:27
being the optimist that I occasionally am, that I think that there are some providers out there, especially when it comes to things like sliding scales, who don't know how to bring the conversations back of, yeah, hey, you got a job. And now you can afford the fee that we had agreed upon before. This does provides those clinicians with an opportunity to have a better touch point, as far as renegotiating some of those sliding scale things.
Katie Vernoy 22:01
It's a natural benchmark. I think the other thing that is interesting on what's being required in these good faith estimates is the client diagnosis. We mentioned it kind of like, you know, do the diagnostic session separate and then a good faith estimate for ongoing treatment. But for some of my clients, they may never see their diagnosis unless I do this, right. And so for folks that don't do super bills, or don't talk about it, don't request their records. And so I think that's another thing for folks, you know, before they provide their first Good Faith Estimate, you may want to be ready to have that conversation because it does show up on the billing, or does show up on this form. And so being able to make sure that your clients understand how you diagnose why you've diagnosed, what you've diagnosed, and what it means how it's impacting treatment or not, it does mean that we need to diagnose our clients. And I think some folks are unlikely to do so when they're completely private pay.
Curt Widhalm 23:06
And I think for people who provide super bills, if this worries you, you're already doing this. It's just you're now with the potential of a more explicit conversation with your clients. And helping clients as Katie just mentioned, to understand what this process is. And, again, this is all very good spirited as far as being consumer friendly. And that's, you know, where it does put some of these onerous things on our behalf. But I think it has the potential because of all of these extra contact points in talking about treatment, and talking about monies impact on treatment, that clients are going to get better outcomes, which maybe I was gonna say if clients get better outcomes, that's good for you as the therapist.
Katie Vernoy 24:02
Sure, sure. I think there's, there's, there's an element of this that feels very paperwork and could take away from the relationship, you know, like, if you have to explain a tough diagnosis that that, you know, wasn't something that was in the regular conversation that can that can impact the relationship. If you have to really dig deeply into some of this. I think it's life. I think it's it's therapy, it's good therapy, but I don't know that it's necessarily I'm not going to just, you know, rainbows and sunshine about like, hey, you need to do this, because I don't know, I think that there are ways that you can make a benefit your client, I don't know that it's necessarily designed to benefit outcomes. The thing I was thinking about, which is an open question, there are folks who do not take insurance because they don't want a diagnosis and they don't want to have anything on record around diagnosis, whether it's based on their job, whatever some reason, they don't want to have a diagnosis. My assumption I'm not reading anything in here that you have to have a full DSM diagnosis, you could do a V code, you could do something that was subclinical. Is that how you're reading it? Or is this an open question where we have to determine like if people want to refuse a good faith estimate, written in good faith estimate? Are we allowed to do so?
Curt Widhalm 25:18
So for those people who are not in network, and if you know, the diagnosis question is a thing. If people, you still have the obligation to ask people, if they are planning on submitting their claims to their insurance company, sure, sure. If they are, you're still required to provide the proper diagnosis to them, you're not not just one that is reimbursable. And so if you are treating somebody for a Z code, if you are treating somebody for something that is traditionally not reimbursed, that is still the diagnostic code that you're supposed to put on there, that has not changed that is already in place. And if you're not doing that, that's insurance fraud. Spanish Inquisition is coming after you.
Katie Vernoy 26:07
Okay, so you didn't answer my question. But all of what I said, What you said was, I agree to if someone does not want to submit any claims to insurance, doesn't want a super bill barely wants a record? Can they decline one of these good faith estimates?
Curt Widhalm 26:24
Absolutely.
Katie Vernoy 26:25
So that they don't have any diagnosis on any paper anywhere?
Curt Widhalm 26:30
Absolutely.
Katie Vernoy 26:31
Okay.
Curt Widhalm 26:33
You as the clinician still need to chart your treatment plans and what it's based on and all that kind of stuff, whether your clients want a good faith estimate or not?
Katie Vernoy 26:42
Are we required to diagnose a client?
Curt Widhalm 26:44
you need to have a reason for treatment, and you need to have a treatment plan that is based on something other than a client just showing up? And you started a session with? Where do you want to start today and ending it with? You're where you need to be? That?
Katie Vernoy 27:03
That may be a whole other conversation. But
Curt Widhalm 27:05
I mean, that that is acting within the scope of your license that
Katie Vernoy 27:08
Sure, sure. So we can have a conversation about diagnosis, but from what you're reading, we could either put a non clinical DSM code and for this Good Faith Estimate, or someone could decline it if they don't want to have a piece of paper with their diagnosis on it.
Curt Widhalm 27:28
Sure, yeah.
Katie Vernoy 27:30
So we may also, at some point, need to put together a, I am declining a Good Faith Estimate form that people sign,
Curt Widhalm 27:38
you know, that's a great idea. You know, it's not like a subpoena where you have to, like, throw it at a client if they're running away from you. Anyway, there are
Katie Vernoy 27:50
Oe I would prefer for an oral, Good Faith Estimate versus a written faith, Good Faith Estimate. I think these are the things that are kind of the to be determined, we'll wait and see if anybody gets sued or or in trouble. But I think there are probably some some reasons why these would not be customer friendly, or consumer friendly, right, is all I'm saying. So we'll we'll table that for now.
Curt Widhalm 28:14
So there are some other requirements that I think are important for everyone to be aware of. You have to prominently post that clients can and are entitled to a good faith estimates. And this needs to be put on your website. It needs to be prominently displayed in your office. I'm I'm on Amazon right now, ordering one of those neon like scrolling things, just put it up behind me in session.
Katie Vernoy 28:46
Oh, that sounds awful.
Curt Widhalm 28:50
Or really just posting a paper a piece of paper that says you're entitled to a good faith estimates.
Katie Vernoy 28:57
And the APA article has both samples of the good faith estimate itself as well as notice the language for the notice. And it has instructions on it. Well, we'll link to those in the show notes. But I think it is big enough that it might be not quite a poster, but still a piece of paper on your wall. And then for your website. I think my suggestion What if you have a section on fees, this may be a reason to post your fees on your website. People have different feelings about it. And I think that would be the appropriate place to have it listed. is in that that section of your website.
Curt Widhalm 29:36
To be clear. You don't need to put on your website. Just a general I expect people's treatment to last 25 sessions
Katie Vernoy 29:46
No
Curt Widhalm 29:47
the language that you need to put out there is
Katie Vernoy 29:51
You can request a good faith estimate.
Curt Widhalm 29:52
Yes, exactly.
Katie Vernoy 29:54
And that's in that APA article. I think the other thing that I was starting to get to get in the weeds and I think this is is more kind of standing questions that will be to be seen. There are a difference between convening providers, which is the person providing the primary service and CO providers, from what I can read the convening provider is the person who has been asked for this good faith estimate. And maybe it's a primary provider, maybe it's just the person they thought to ask. And if there are co providers who are providing treatment with you for the identified patient. So for example, you've got a an eating disorder treatment group that, you know, you've got different folks either in your group practice, or that you do a lot of work with, you may end up having to put together kind of this full package of good faith estimates where everybody's services are on there. I think that's a little bit more detailed than we need to get for today's conversation, I think typically, you're just going to be doing your own services. But for folks who have group practices that maybe share an identified patient with another provider, or have a little complexity, you probably are going to want to reach out to your professional association or legal counsel to identify how best to take care of those good faith estimates is my opinion.
Curt Widhalm 31:10
Yes. If this sounds like a lot of extra steps, you're right. And some of the things that I'm seeing across the healthcare industry is that this does impact smaller businesses a lot more than group practices and agencies, because it is a lot of extra steps and does have time deadlines that oftentimes you're going to need to provide this in writing to clients who want it within one business day. And if you have a very, very busy schedule, this is something that you're going to deed to accommodate, you're going to have to get these systems in place. And you know, our friends over at simple practice that we've seen some chatter in the simple practice community requesting that some of this stuff be added to their platform, I hope that a lot of the EHR systems, we'll be addressing this so that way, it does help to streamline these things. But this is stuff that whether you like it or not, it's here. And, you know, we're trying to give you just a even if this is a, hey, I have to go and look at this stuff. And I need to make some changes now go and make those changes, because this is things that our world is changing, we have to adjust to as providers and our clients are going to be overall probably better for it even if that means that we're not.
Katie Vernoy 32:47
So I want to just before we close up, I want to talk through what I see as a potential path to try to make this as efficient as possible. And so I'm stealing one of your ideas, and then putting together the rest. So I think what
Curt Widhalm 33:00
your plan is everybody quits and go find retirement early on some cheaper cost of living base.
Katie Vernoy 33:09
No, everybody become coaches... Um, no, the plan is, I really like this idea of having a boilerplate, good faith estimate for your diagnostic session. So your 90791 I think the difficulty unless there is like some sort of a form created in your electronic health record, you may have to create this separately, but putting together that good faith estimate. So it is sent over with all of your intake paperwork. And it's part of the the process. So this is the fee, this is the service. I think that the nuance and you can have all of your information, the nuance is the clients name and those types of things. And so I'm going to look in simple practice myself to see if I can figure out a way to do it if if they don't fix that themselves, or don't put that together themselves. But I think even creating, you know, a form that you can upload and send to them where you can, you know, kind of do that that becomes with your intake paperwork, it goes out immediately you're in compliance. I think the next stage is having that good faith estimate that is for ongoing treatment, has all of your information already in place has all of the services and fees in place and then it goes into you know, there's a little bit that you have to fill out for each client that has their information, their diagnosis, and then the number the expected number of sessions, and that goes out after the first session.
Curt Widhalm 34:43
I think it's brilliant, until they change things and that's addressed. In some future episodes. We do know that there is language that is written into this no surprises act that even four out of network therapists might be needing to submit some of this paperwork directly to a client's health insurance company. That part of the law or the regulations has not yet been written. We just know that it's coming. It's reserved in there. And that's what some of the future languages for your member professional association, check out any guidance that they have, as those regulations continue to roll out, we will almost guaranteeing an episode in the future on what that means, especially for those of us who aren't used to talking with insurance companies and what kind of mean now, so we kind of want to hear you lamenting these kinds of things. I can share your thoughts with that in our Facebook group, the modern therapist group, and share it with us on our social media. We'll include links to all of that in our show notes. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 36:02
Thanks again to our sponsors simplified SEO consulting.
Curt Widhalm 36:05
These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for therapists. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where Simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website or they can do the optimizing for you.
Katie Vernoy 36:29
Visit SimplifiedSEOconsulting.com/moderntherapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code MODERNTHERAPIST. Once again, visit simplified Seo consulting.com/moderntherapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.
Announcer 36:54
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
How Can Therapists Actually Retire? - An interview with David Frank, financial planner for therapists Curt and Katie talk with David about managing finances, including student loan debt and retirement. We look at when to start saving, what to do when you’re starting to save for retirement later in life, and how much is too much to save. David also shares his concept of a Money Date and how you should start looking at your financial picture. He also talks about financial planning and when to seek a professional for support.
Interview with David Frank, Turning Point Financial Life Planning David Frank is on a mission to ensure every therapist has access to unbiased and fiduciary financial advice! Through the firm he founded, Turning Point Financial Life Planning, he helps therapists navigate every element of their financial lives: from understanding your practice P&L and building a personal budget to managing student loan debt and investing for retirement... and everything in between. Dave earned both his undergraduate and MBA degrees in finance and he also completed a certificate in personal financial planning. He's worked for over twenty years in investment banking, corporate finance and now personal finance. Don't let his love of the tax code and spreadsheets scare you off! You're just as likely to find him with his nose buried in one of Pema Chodron's books as reading up on the latest finance planning techniques.
In this podcast episode we talk about: Managing Personal and Professional Finances * How perfectionism can get in the way of saving * The importance of “just getting started” in saving for retirement * Saving money is a practice, not something you figure out once * Why it is important to save money as soon as you can
Navigating Student Loan Debt * Student loan debt and how overwhelming it is to look at these debts * The desire to pay off this debt as quickly as possible * David’s advice to save at least one time your annual income before aggressively paying off your student loan debt * The comparison of interest rates on your debt versus returns on investing money
Retirement and Investing in your Future
“Starting to save and invest young is such great advice… and… it’s advice for time travelers”
- For younger folks, the advice is to save as soon as possible
- What to do if you are closer to retirement age and you haven’t started saving for retirement
- How to determine when you can retire
“No one does this money thing perfectly, even if we start out of the gate pretty strong.”
- What to do when life happens and you have to start over
- David’s own story of having to start over
- Societal fear due to 2008 and the Great Recession
David Frank’s Concept of “Money Dates” * Reserve time each week to look at your money * Start understanding how much you need to save * Idea: go to the Social Security Administration Website to see what you’re entitled to in social security
How Much Money to Save * The money mindset concerns that can get in the way of saving (or even looking at) your money * How much money is too much money to save? * Emergency funds and the feeling of safety and security * The risks of saving too much money * Quality of life questions when you are underspending * Online tools to identify what you need in retirement, so you know when you’ve saved enough * Actual numbers of what to save for retirement and what you can spend now
Financial Planning – When and why to seek help with your money * The complexity of the decisions related to paying debt versus investing * The number of options available to each person when making decisions on our money * Get feedback on how well you are doing on your practice financials and saving for retirement * Risk planning, financial planning, estate and incapacity planning * The importance of understanding your values when you look at how to spend your money * Financial planning when you don’t have a lot of money * Choosing what you sacrifice when you decide to invest in shiny objects * The problem of “shoulds” and getting financial advice from other therapists
Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
These days, word of mouth referrals just isn’t enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they’re looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you! That’s where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in.
Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice.
They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you.
Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST"
Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
David’s Website for Turning Point Financial Life Planning
David’s Finance Quickstart Guide
David’s Quickstart Intensive Coaching Session (use code MTSG for 20% off)
David on LinkedIn
Social Security Administration Website
Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: The 4-1-1- on your 401K
Making Bank as a Therapist
Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset
Don’t Take Tax Advice From Therapists
Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is brought to you by Simplified SEO consulting.
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
Curt Widhalm 00:21
Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.
Announcer 00:24
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:40
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for all things therapists. And that includes money and how we're setting ourselves up for running good practices, taking care of ourselves, both while we're working and towards retirement so that way, we don't have to do this forever. And we can potentially retire someday. And here to help us talk about this is David Frank. He is a financial planner and the founder of Turning Point financial, and he's here to help put the fun back in funds and take the ire out of retirement. So thank you very much for joining us today.
David Frank 01:29
Brilliant, thanks so much for that introduction. Kurt. I'm super excited to be here and to talk about, yeah, all things Money and Finance and even the dreaded R word of retirement.
Katie Vernoy 01:40
I'm so glad you're here, we had a lot of fun working together around the conference. And we definitely I feel like you're a friend of the show and a friend of mine. And so I'm so glad you're here talking about that.
David Frank 01:51
Thanks
Katie Vernoy 01:51
Because I think there's a lot that needs to be discussed. I feel like this is an important conversation for us to be having. And you're a great person to do it because you're a financial planner, who has chosen to work specifically with therapists. But before I get ahead of myself, the first question we ask everyone is who are you? And what are you putting out to the world?
David Frank 02:26
Yeah, so as Curt mentioned, my name is David Frank, and I am a financial planner, and the founder of turning point, financial fat is a financial planning firm that I began and it is focused exclusively on helping therapists or mental health professionals take care of their finances. So that's what I'm putting out into the world. That's what I'm doing. My kind of mission is to help people live better lives to help your listeners, your therapists out there live better lives, and also grow their impact in the world. Because when we get sort of some of this money stuff out of the way, we can be more present for every element of our lives. And I think it's less about the money and more about the actual feelings and feeling better about money and not being so stressed and overwhelmed about it.
Curt Widhalm 03:08
What's wrong with you if that you chose to work with therapists? How does somebody be like, You know what there there are people who are easy to work with with money, and I'm up for a challenge. Why? What brought you to the the mental health world as far as your client population here?
David Frank 03:31
Yeah, great question. Well, so within the financial planning community, much like within the therapist, community and mental health community, there's this like raging debate going on about whether niching down and really specifically defining your target audience or target market is a good idea or not. And when I started turning point, when I started my own business, the big thing I was worried about is like, is anyone actually going to show up and want to work with me, like actually pay me money for my services? And the other the secondary concern was like, will I be able to add enough value will I actually be able to, like, really understand what's going on for folks and really help them in a meaningful way. And I became super convinced that the solution to both of those anxieties was to define a niche of who I really wanted to work with. And it was a very, what's the right word, I was just very stressed about getting the right niche. And at that time, I was, I was seeing my own therapist, and I had been seeing this guy for several years, and he was awesome. I was working with kind of a life and business coach, and I was agonizing over this decision. And finally, my coach reflected back to me something that was obvious to him, but was invisible to me. And he just said, Why don't you work with therapists? And I was like, Oh, my it was just like a light went off. That's the wrong metaphor, but it just it felt so right. I love talking to therapists, like I sometimes I think like a therapist. I love learning about their business. And it just seemed like a population that I could help and like you say, like, maybe maybe I'm up for the challenge.
Katie Vernoy 05:01
What do you think therapists get wrong when they think about retirement or saving money or taking care of their finances?
David Frank 05:08
Yeah, I what I see is something that not just therapists get wrong, but just generally most people get wrong. And that's this idea of having to figure it all out or get something perfect, rather than just simply getting started. And when it comes to managing finances, both personal finances and professional finances, like your private practice finances, I think the key really is simply just to get started. And so if we think about saving for retirement, I mean, man, just even saying that makes me feel a little bit overwhelmed, right, like, there's so much there to navigate and figure out. But I think the key is to just sort of get started and meet yourself where you're at and just say, Okay, what you really need to do to save for retirement is just that to start saving. So understanding if you can put away even if it's just $5, every month, just get started, build that muscle, build the practice of saving some money and moving it, even if it's just moving it to a dedicated checking account where you're beginning to build up savings, then like down the road, you can come back and sort of figure out, okay, I should probably be investing this money rather than simply putting it into a checking account or something like that. And it is like it's a practice, this stuff is not a project that you sit down one day and get it all done. And then you're just good. It's kind of like a mindfulness practice is really the way I often think about it and encourage others to think about it is to carve out some time, every week to just spend with your money stuff, both your internal stuff, what comes up for you, when you're dealing with money and finances, and with the external stuff of the accounts that you have in the amounts of those accounts and how you navigate it. So I'm just a huge proponent of just sort of getting started and make taking those small, little steps. And I feel too often people get hung up that like, No, I have to make this big, monumental shift, that perfectionist tendency that so many of us have, can really hold us back.
Curt Widhalm 06:57
So I think in your own way, you've answered a couple of the questions that we would normally ask here, which is, when should people start saving? And how much should they start saving, which I'm hearing you say, early, and whatever you can. So that's kind of the first part of this, for maybe some of our listeners who are earlier on in their careers who are facing things like massive student debt, where it's like, well, I should be throwing money at, you know, getting the government off my back or blowing providers off my back. What do you say to somebody in that position where it's very earlier on where they might be kind of death, avoidant, as opposed to starting to think about investing in themselves?
David Frank 07:44
Well, yeah, a couple of things I want to say in response to that. And first, Curt, I think you hit the nail on the head, start saving as soon as you can, there's this this magic of compounding what we talked about in the financial world. And that just means the sooner that you get started saving, the longer you have, or the longer you give those investments to grow. So the amount that you need to save can are like the percentage of your income that you should be saving toward retirement, it can change dramatically depending on when you start. So if you're starting to save for retirement, say in your mid to late 20s, from mid to late 20s, all the way through retirement, that's like 40 years for most of us. And so if you start that early, you could save like 15% of your income and be absolutely fine. The longer you wait, the greater percentage of your earnings that you'll ideally need to set aside. Now I don't want anyone to hear those numbers and kind of like freak out and prevent them from from even getting started. Because anything is better than nothing in this sort of situation. So that's part of the answer. And we can probably talk more about that. But the the student loan issue, I think is a huge one. And yeah, I mean, I really feel like it's so it's so easy to want to avoid student loans and not even look at them. And what I would say is that, regardless of the type of debt, whether it's student loan debt, or a mortgage or auto loan, or really almost anything else, I don't encourage people to start aggressively paying off debt until they've saved, you know, roughly about one times their their annual income through a combination of emergency funds, retirement account savings, and even just, you know, ordinary savings and other other investments. The one exception to that might be really high interest rate credit card debt, which you might want to pay off. But student loans, especially, the only way that you can really get into trouble with student loans is to ignore them and not look at them. There are so many amazing options in terms of different income driven repayment plans out there. If you have federal student loan debts, I would encourage you to start saving and start looking at your student loans and considering what might the right path be for you because there are so many good options out there. Unfortunately, because there are many options. It's a little confusing and overwhelming to navigate. But there are definitely great resources out there. So super long answer To your question, allow you guys to jump in.
Curt Widhalm 10:03
And if I can provide, you know, maybe a little bit of a perspective on this, you know, if you're looking at student loans, if your rates are like 5 6 7 percent in interest, even that can feel scary. But when you look at like stock market returns over the last couple of years, money that you could be saving 5% on by putting into your loan, you could have been getting returns of 1015, or more percent, depending on how that kind of stuff is invested, where you're using that same money to make your retirement come sooner. This is where having some of the ability to kind of sit and look at some of this stuff. And sitting with somebody like David would, I'm sure walk you through some of these kinds of comparisons of here's how you can make even very little money work for you.
David Frank 10:49
Yeah, I think that's that's an excellent point, Curt. And like that's, that's right. Like, it's always great to be investing the money and seeing really great returns from the stock market, like we have seen over the last couple years, really over the last 10 years, it's been an insane period, where there's been really healthy returns. And you're right, like you could have not pay down your student loans whatsoever. Because yeah, they're probably in the neighborhood of 5 6 7 8% interest each year, something like that. And that's just it's so complicated. Like there's so many factors to think through that I think yes, the more you spend some time just sort of looking and learning yourself, the more comfortable you'll start to be with it. And that way you can kind of avoid making more rash, emotional decisions, which is sometimes when folks get themselves in trouble. And yeah, you know, I'm having a conversation with financial person, who you who you trust, and who can help you make the right decision for you. Because there there is no one right decision really ever when it comes to all these things. It really is personal and helping a client or helping the person sitting across from me determine what is the right move for them, given their life's their their life, rather, their goal, their anxieties around money, their worries, how do we manage all those different things?
Katie Vernoy 11:59
I like that you're talking about it as individual decisions. I think there are some things we're kind of the cold hard numbers with some therapists are great at math, many therapists are not great at math, that's kind of a trope that I don't actually like, I think it's this thing of, of being able to actually look at the cold, hard numbers of what do I save by paying the minimum payment on my debt? Versus what do I earn from even putting something in a very risk free I mean, the stock market isn't necessarily risk free, you could make 10%, or you could lose 20%. You know, there's, there's so much there. And I think some people can hold that risk and are used to that, and some folks can't. And so I think looking at what, what makes sense for you with the emotional makeup of how you're looking at your money, the amount of bass that you have and can play around with as well as what your debt looks like. It seems like understanding that is really important. I think when we're looking at folks who are first starting out, which is kind of Kurt's question, which is like they have student loan debt, most likely, they are not earning a lot. And so you're saying kind of look at the numbers identify what's going to make the most sense, save a year's worth of salary before you really aggressively attack your student loan debt, I would recommend probably paying minimum payments. So you don't start? Well, yes, fee is as well. But like, I think there are folks that want they want to be debt free. And I think there's also a lot of folks who know that most people are never completely debt free because of mortgages or, or car loans or other types of debt that can be accrued. But when you look at folks who are a little further on, and whether it's age wise, or career wise, they're further along, and maybe they haven't saved for retirement, what would you say to them, because I think for folks who are early on and they can save the $5 a month or whatever, that's awesome. And I think that there is that compounding that you were talking about. But there are folks that I've talked to even that are like, I am in my 50s I'm in my 60s, I haven't done anything. And I just don't want to have to work forever. And so what would you recommend for folks who are further on in their life who are maybe further on in their career? What should you say, you know, how do you determine what you should save? How do you determine how and when you can retire? I mean, for folks who are later on I think there's there's sometimes a bigger question mark than folks for starting out. I mean, the message when you're first starting out when you're younger, and you're newer in your career, like just save, start it, you've got a lot of time it'll grow, we promise. But for folks that don't have that time, it's especially people who have recently seen their parents, colleagues and friends go through, you know, 2008 or, or different times when retirement just dropped out completely. I mean, there's some fear there's some societal fear around investing. Potentially you have to look at too.
David Frank 14:47
Yeah. No, I like the way you teed up that question too, because I Yes, starting to save and invest young is such great advice. And I also like to describe it as I'm like, It's advice for time travelers, right? Because it's like yeah, that is a lovely thing, but like who actually does that? I mean, some people do for sure.
Katie Vernoy 15:05
Curt and I both did because of the backgrounds that we have. So we both are very fortunate. But not everyone has that.
David Frank 15:12
No, well, just like as an aside, like, I also have like that similar background, like I have an undergraduate degree in finance, I have an MBA in finance. And so like, right out of the gate, in my early 20s, I was like, I gotta be saving, I got to be putting all this money in a 401k. And I did that from like, 22, or whatever to like, 32. And I was doing great. Like I was killing it. And then you know, life happened. And like, I went through a really rough period in my life, I ended up unemployed for like, three years. And guess what, like, I burned through all those savings. So I thought I had done all the right things. And I had, but like, life just happens. And so the story that I told myself at the age of 35, when I was like, essentially broke and starting over was, like, there were a lot of nevers like this is I'm never gonna have the same amount of money, I'm never gonna have the security, I'm never gonna feel comfortable. It's just like, it's kind of like it's over for me. And the truth is that life had all kinds of twists and turns in store for me, and that most of what I was telling myself then wasn't true. So why do I even tell that story? I think the point is, is like a no one does this money stuff perfectly, even if we start out of the game strong, so just be kind and forgiving to yourself, number one. And number two, you really don't know what the future holds like there can be tremendous improvements made in a really short amount of time. So with that, as background, I would say, again, I have this concept I call money dates, which is just set aside 30 minutes, every day, every week rather, or so every week or so 30 minutes or so put it on your calendar and just treat it as if it were, you know, a client appointment and be like, I'm going to sit with my money stuff, and just look at it every week, and just see what's happening. So that I think, especially if you're find yourself later in life, and you use the specter, you have worry or fear about retirement, just start that practice, start getting familiar with what's happening, start understanding maybe how much you might need to save. Yeah, and also try to bring someone else into it with you. Maybe that's a significant other, maybe that's someone in your personal life, who you feel comfortable having this conversation with, just to sort of make it seem less private and scary. That could also be someone like me, like a financial professional, that you have reason to believe would be trustworthy, and would give you good advice. Because there are always options, there's always hope. There's so many things, different levers, you can pull. And the last point I'll make on this is that if you're really worried First, I would go to the Social Security Administration website and just log in, create an account, see what your you'll be entitled to in terms of social security benefits, it might actually be a little bit more than you're suspecting. And that's just like so that that can provide a really solid base. It's not like you have to pay for everything yourself in return in retirement, we do have a bit of a backstop. So start there, and then begin to think, okay, beyond that monthly payment that I'll likely get, what more might I need? And how might I start to get there,
Curt Widhalm 18:05
I'm imagining these money dates of just sitting around with your financial statements and staring them in the eyes and doing the 36 questions to make you fall in love. Alright. Sounds great. But I don't know also, that it's that far off, when it's actually being able to look at this stuff intently as you're describing, and kind of shifting this from maybe more of the personal finance section to you also work with people as far as their finances towards their practices as well. How did how did those conversations look?
David Frank 18:39
Yeah, I mean, they they really run the gamut, you know, you know, what, what most people want to know, is just like, Am I doing okay? Like, is this okay? And I think the answer is, it's kind of this, I'll give like someone like something I read on the cover of a Buddhist magazine, which is like, your perfect just as you are. And you could use some improvement. I feel like that's always kind of like where I kind of began with this. Yeah. It's, it's, it's just like, that's just the truth, you know, and like, so everyone, like, it's a similar practice of just being like, okay, let's, let's look at your practice financials. When's the last time you looked at your profit and loss statement or your p&l? And for a lot of people, it's like, well, the last time I had to, which is when I had to prepare my taxes last year, and like, from there, like I'm not really sure. And so it's like, okay, let's no big deal, a very common experience. And we can and we can do better. So we can just sort of look at it and just sort of spend time with those numbers and just be like, I don't know what any of this means. Right? Like it's they're confusing. These financial statements are confusing. And every therapist that I've ever met, whether they're self described good at math or terrible at math, can understand them. Because this is just simple math. I think it's more about creating room and space for the uncomfortable feelings that come up. When when folks start to, to work with their practice finances, and it's Working to sort of sweep out of the way limiting beliefs around Oh, I'm just no good at this, I'll never figure this out. Because I guarantee like you can figure it out. And sometimes sure you need some support from a professional like me or a peer or whomever. But it's just spending time. And yeah, asking those 36 questions to fall in love with your practice, P&L, I think is, it's not a bad place to begin.
Katie Vernoy 20:23
That's funny, I think there's, there's so much emotion around money and security. And, and I think everybody, you know, there's a lot of different episodes, we've done with different folks on, you know, kind of money mindset and stuff. And we can link to those in the show notes as well. But I think that there's this idea, you know, we've got the folks that haven't saved anything and just, you know, they're living in a way or practicing in a way where they're barely making enough money to survive, or they're just not thinking about it, or whatever, you know. And then there's folks I've interacted with on the other side, where they don't pay themselves a lot, they save a lot of money in a, like an emergency fund, or they're investing a lot. And one of the questions that you had suggested we talk about is can you save too much? And so, so I wanted to ask about that. Because I think that there are folks who feel very safe, when they have a lot of money saved or set aside. And then and then they don't touch it at all. And to me, I feel like there there's some benefit to that. But I think to a point, and then there's also I think some potential things that can get in the way if you need a gigantic emergency fund.
David Frank 21:41
Yeah, I mean, well said exactly. And I kind of like talking about this too, because having money saved wherever it is, whether it's an a retirement account, or an investment account. It for a lot of people, it feels like safety and security. And I think on some level, but you know, money touches pretty much everything. I might argue everything in life, like every moment of your day, is impacted by money, even if you're just like carving out enough time to not be working or thinking about money. That's that's time, I guess, theoretically, you could be making money, or something like that. So it's so intertwined. And we get so many messages from society around money and why it's important what we should be doing with it. That yeah, that at that end of the spectrum, where it's just like, I want to squirrel away and save, because it creates safety and security, I think, yeah, I think I think there is a risk of saving too much. And it's the question I always ask is sort of, you know, what, what is important? Like, if you find yourself saving a lot of money, ask yourself what is important about having so much money in this account, or what is important about having a big emergency fund, you know, what comes up that there's, there's certainly something going on, and I think it isn't necessarily bad. And yet, I would say if you are constantly finding yourself having to live from a place of restriction or scarcity in that, like, oh, I can't take that vacation. Because I I'd rather be saving money. I can't even maybe take a professional training because even though I feel really passionate about doing that, I need to be saving money. If you find you're constantly saying no to things that would nourish you that would make your quality of life better, then I think there's something there's something you need to look at. And again, it's it's it's likely an emotional issue. And I think that's that's another good opportunity to, you know, work with a professional or also there's like so many, like pretty good tools online these days to help you assess where, where am I really in terms of saving for retirement? How much? Like, how safe do I do I need to be? This is like a personal story about saving so much for retirement, I had a friend who lived in New York, he worked for, I can't remember who he worked for. But he had, he had like a pension, like a really generous pension. And he was putting a ton of money into his 401k. And he was like three years away from retirement. And like, by any measure, he had all the safety and security at least financially that anyone could ever hope for. And he was so looking for forward to retirement, and then the pandemic hit. And he he died of a heart attack, just a sudden heart attack. Totally unexpected. I mean, the reason I share that is like It was tragic. It was horrible. And, and it's life, right? Like we're never we're not promised anything. So I think it's got to be a balance. Yes, save and plan for the future. And just know that there is no such thing as complete safety and security because our life's journeys can end really at any point. And I think we just need to acknowledge both of those facts that yes, we want to be living in the moment and making our current life as good as reasonably possible. And also be planning prudently for the future and then balancing those two and it's tricky.
Curt Widhalm 24:50
Besides just like squirreling money away and the places to put that money and how to spend that money. Are there other considerations of how therapy should be taking care of themselves and their assets. You know, like with your friend example here, I'm sure that part of the extension of this is looking at things like wills and power of attorney type things.
David Frank 25:14
Yeah. Yeah. All that fun stuff. That's yeah, like, I think of it as like, risk risk planning, and then estate and incapacity planning. And as a comprehensive financial planner, those are things that I that I help folks look at as well. And they're things that many of us don't want to want to look at. But yeah, you know, you know, I think when it comes to like, sort of estate in an incapacity planning, and that's the type of work that I will help clients think through, and you almost certainly need to work with a professional attorney licensed in your state of residence to put a plan like that in place. So many folks think, oh, estate planning, that's something for rich people. And yeah, that's true. And it's also pretty much for all of us. So like, putting in place like a professional will, which really just ensures that your your clients are cared for in the event, you can't continue to show up for them the way you do today in your practice, and also having like personal incapacity and estate planning documents in place, powers of attorney, you know, wills, maybe maybe a trust to depending on what state you live in, these are uncomfortable things to think about. It's not comfortable to think about our own potential, passing our inevitable passing, or our potential incapacity. And I think it's really important. It's really, I think, I view this stuff as like an extension of loving kindness to, to your future self, to your clients, to your family members and loved ones. And having having a thought partner to think through what are the right pieces of that plan to have in place for you, I think is is really important.
Katie Vernoy 26:46
The balance between living now and saving for the future, I think is a really tough one. I think along the lines of we could die at any moment. But we also could live longer than we expect.
David Frank 26:57
Yeah,
Katie Vernoy 26:57
I think the retirement age of 65, which, you know, came into place when people lived to be 70 or 75. You know, I think people living into their hundreds, I think that there is there is a lot longer that people theoretically could be retired. We also know there's a lot of therapists who practice well beyond that, because it's it can be a good quote unquote, retirement career. But to me, it seems like there's there's a lot to consider both in how do I live well, today, but also, how do I save enough to really live a long, long life, you know, like, the hope is that you're going to live and be in retirement for 3040 years. Right. You know, I think that that seems that's what I want. And so, if we're looking at identifying, I don't even know if there's a there's an answer here. And it probably is, you know, appropriately and it depends answer. But is there a percentage of our income that we should say, versus a percentage that we should and reinvest into our businesses? Or a percentage that we should use to enjoy our lives? Like, like, Are there standard typical percentages that people can kind of keep in mind when they're trying to make some of these decisions? If they are currently doing that on their own or with a, a non professional thinking partner?
David Frank 28:27
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you're right, that my answer is going to be prefaced by It depends.
Katie Vernoy 28:33
Of course,
David Frank 28:34
and yeah, you know, and obviously, nothing we've covered here today, including what I'm about to say is advice for anyone listening, right? Like, I don't know, you personally, listener, whoever you are. So I can't give advice that's, that's tailored to your particular situation. But in general, going back to the theme of it, it also depends when you've started saving. So if you're starting to save for retirement, and you're somewhere in your mid to late 20s, targeting saving 15% of your, of your pre tax income. So a quick aside, like it's difficult to know, like, especially if you're self employed, you have your own private practice, how much money am I even making, the best place I think to go and look for that is on the first page of your federal income tax return. I know that's like a scary place like no one wants to go to unless they're absolutely forced to. But there's so many good numbers on it. And there, you will find your total income on the very first page, I think it's like line 16 or something, and that'll tell you your total income. So I would say find that number. And then say if you're in your 20s, multiply that by 15% or 15% of that, that's ideally how much you should be saving every year. If you're in your late 30s, I would say that number should be closer to 25% of your total income. And then if you're around 50, late 40s 50s, then that number starts to get closer to even 50% which is like a scary number. So that's that's kind of aspirational, like who can really do like that's, that's really, really tough, which is why I don't want those numbers like they're not carved in stone. They're rough guidelines. And if you find yourself for not meeting them, that would be a typical human experience, right? Like most people aren't going to consistently meet those. That's okay, just continue doing the best the best you can. And then like, once, if and when you can hit those numbers, then it's like the rest of your money, you need to figure out like, what, what is the right balance for you, and then it totally depends like is, if you can hit your savings targets of let's like, roughly, for most people, it's gonna be like 15, in the range of 15 to 25%. Like, that's mostly realistic. And that's like a pretty solid number that we can really begin to work with that opens up options for yourself for your future self, then they spend the rest of the money in the way that feels best to you, like, yeah, reinvest some of that. reinvest in your practice, like do do what feels what gives you energy, like kind of like, like, you know, what gives you joy? Like that's, that's really how I think it's important to think about
Curt Widhalm 30:53
when you're working with clients, I'm imagining that some of the depends that you're talking about here and getting to know them probably comes very much like therapy, and what do you value would you are hitting some of these financial goals and how you should spend it that for some clients, it might be, alright, you need to start spending this money, let's talk about buying a second house. Whereas for somebody else that might be, you know, what's you know, and see what kinds of, you know, charitable contributions that you can make? Do you ever find yourself in those very, very positive positions, but also on the flip side of that, like, hey, maybe you shouldn't get that doctorate, because it doesn't fit within your financial plans, or any kinds of other like, hold up like, this doesn't seem to fit with the lifestyle and values that you've talked about?
David Frank 31:46
Yeah, I mean, what I like to say, and this is not an original phrase that borrowed it from someone else in the personal finance industry, but I like to say like, you can have basically anything you want, you just can't have everything. So if you really want to do something, for whatever reason, I always encourage a little bit of self reflection, just sort of asking what what is it about, for example, getting a doctorate that feels so important and vital to you? And then if you answer that question to your satisfaction, like that's not it's not my life, it's not up to me what the best use of your money is, if it's really something that's vital and important to you, then the question is, well, what are the right trade offs? So let's, let's just look with some clarity and say, This is how much this is going to cost. In the case of a doctorate, there's student loans and options like that, and just be as clear eyed as we can about the future and say, Okay, here's why you want to do this, here's the why it's important, or here are the elements about it that are important for you. And here's the numbers associated with that, let's just figure out how to make it work well. And sometimes when when, when folks see the other the sacrifices and other areas of their life that they might have to make, suddenly they realize, actually, maybe this isn't what I want, because there are competing employer priorities that are actually more important. And I just, I sort of forgot. So sometimes what I do is just remind people just reflect back to them, what they've told me, or what they've demonstrated to me is important to them. Because as human beings we do with like, we see like a shiny object, and we want to chase after it. And sometimes that shiny object is like really something you should be pursuing. And other times, it's something that's just a distraction, and we just need to be reminded of what's more important.
Katie Vernoy 33:23
I love that I think it's really important, I guess that's the right word, I can think of here to understand yourself your values, and put put an individual plan together, I see a lot of shoulds you should be making this much money, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I think being able to really talk through with a knowledgeable person, you know, what, what actually are my values around this? What are my life goals? And how do I actually plan for those life goals versus someone else's, and and even really looking at individual circumstances, I've had folks that have told me that they don't want to take insurance because they get $5 less than their full fee. And I'm like, you're listening to advice from people in California where they get half of their full fee, you know, and so, like, you know, all of these shoulds and the kind of impromptu financial advice from other therapists and Facebook groups I think is something that we really need to fight against so that people can look at their own numbers, their own situation and make their own plan and so I love everything that you've said. And I appreciate your your thoughtfulness and your understanding of the emotional aspects of it that really make it hard for some folks to do this in a clear eyed way.
David Frank 34:43
Yeah, well thank you that's very kind and and yeah, I just think that word should I hate that it's just like stop shooting all over yourself like there is no once i Mister like they're just there is no right answer really for any of this and Yeah, like advice. I just like, I get so triggered Maybe is there I don't know what the right word is. But like when people give advice, I heard this in a webinar I attended the other month. And the speaker said, All advice is autobiographical. And I'm like, what does that mean? And what he meant was that anytime someone is giving you advice, they're speaking from their own experience. So they're really giving advice to themselves, like, oh, I should have done this in the past, or I should be doing this right now. But I'm actually not, or, or whatever it is. And so advice can be good. But whether it's coming from a professional, like a financial advisor, or a colleague that you know, somewhere, or someone you don't know, but in a Facebook group, just ask them to explain. They're like, Oh, okay, interesting point. Why do you why do you say that? Like, what, what is the thinking behind that? And you may discover that, oh, that, that that piece of advice applies for them, because it's autobiographical, but it's sure doesn't apply to me. Um, or you might find it does apply to you, and great if it does, but it is also individual,
Curt Widhalm 36:01
where can people find out more about you and turning point financial, if they want to reach out to you and work with you?
David Frank 36:10
Yeah, so the best thing for people to do is to navigate to my website, and access my finance quickstart guide for therapists. And that'll give you a sense of what you should be thinking about in your fancy financial life. And it also gives you a good sense of what it might be like to work with me. And my website is turning point hq.com. So that's like turning point, a bridge, the abbreviation for headquarters. And yeah, there's a ton of good resources on there. And I think I will even by the time this airs, we'll have a little simple worksheet that folks can work through to help them determine how much they might, they ought to be I don't, I'm gonna use the word should how much they might want to consider saving for retirement so so they can navigate to the website and find all that good stuff.
Curt Widhalm 36:51
And you've got an offer for our listeners as well.
David Frank 36:56
I do for just a special offer. For the listeners of this great podcast, I'm offering 20% off my QuickStart coaching intensive. So navigate to my website, under the Services description, you'll find more information about that. And when they're scheduling that meeting, if they just enter the code, MTSG, or something like that, I will offer them 20% off when it comes to pay me.
Katie Vernoy 37:18
Yay. That's awesome. Thank you.
Curt Widhalm 37:20
And we'll include links to all of that in our show notes. You can find those over at MTSGpodcast.com. And make sure to join our Facebook groups, modern therapist group, and follow us on our social media for updates on everything that we're doing and connecting you with some of the other wonderful people in our community, much like David. So, thank you very much for joining us today. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and David Frank.
Katie Vernoy 37:48
Thanks again to our sponsor, simplified SEO consulting.
Curt Widhalm 37:52
These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website or they can do the optimizing for you.
Katie Vernoy 38:16
Visit simplifiedSEOconsulting.com/moderntherapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code MODERN THERAPIST. Once again, visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.
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Should Private Practice Therapists Take Insurance? Curt and Katie chat about the latest data from SimplePractice on private practice clinicians billing insurance. We explore the most common set up for clinicians (a hybrid insurance/private pay practice) as well as how therapists bill insurance, the disparity between private pay fees and insurance rates (and how different these disparities are across the United States), how strategies for growing private practices are affected by who is paying, and how to set yourself up for a successful hybrid insurance practice.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Demystifying the most Common CPT Codes E-Book from SimplePractice * Looking at the most common make up of therapists’ private practices (hybrid: insurance and private pay) * The theories about whether to take insurance of not * The process of starting a practice (credentialing timeline, marketing, etc.) * The benefits of being on an insurance panel (e.g., nearly 100% close rate) * The income differences for clinicians at different stages of practice development * The average number of appointments per week by type of practice (insurance, hybrid, or private pay) and what that means for your income * How well insurance reimburses in different states (and comparing these rates to typical private pay fees) * Financial considerations when looking at the insurance rates you will get in your area * How to set up your practice if you choose to take insurance * The most frequently billed CPT code (as well as others to consider) * The controversy around 90837 and how to make sure you get paid * Different strategies to build a sustainable business with an insurance or hybrid private practice
Our Generous Sponsor: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
These days, word of mouth referrals just aren’t enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they’re looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you! That’s where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in.
Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice.
They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you.
Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST"
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Demystifying the Most Commonly Used CPT® Codes for Mental Health
Relevant Episodes:
Busting Insurance Myths
Make Your Paperwork Meaningful
Noteworthy Documentation
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Special Interview: Open Path Psychotherapy Collective
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is brought to you by simplified SEO consulting.
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
Curt Widhalm 00:21
Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.
Announcer 00:24
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:40
Welcome back Modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast where we talk about oh things, therapy, running our practices, that all things therapy, we don't really talk a lot about what we do with clients, but talking
Katie Vernoy 00:58
sometimes we do
Curt Widhalm 00:59
sometimes. But today, we are talking about an ebook that was sent over to us by our friends over at simplepractice. And this is called demystifying the most commonly used CPT codes. And Katie and I come from very different places, when it comes to insurance, and Katie's got a hybrid practice, I have a cash pay practice where we do super bills, and I understand some of this stuff. And Katie understands a lot of this stuff a lot more. And we wanted to be able to give our take on things and help you make some decisions on whether or not insurance is right for your practice.
Katie Vernoy 01:47
Yeah, I think it's something where I am actually in the majority Curt and I don't know that that's well seen the hybrid practices 51% At least have simple practice users and 61% of simple practice users billed insurance this year, and have an insurance portion of their practice, but only 10% are just insurance. So to me, I think when someone comes on to a Facebook group or in a networking situation and says, Hey, should I accept insurance? I feel like a lot of people are like, no, don't take insurance private pays the best. But I think a lot of us in the background are quietly accepting insurance, at least for a portion of our practice. So there's a lot of detail in this report that talks about kind of regular rates, you know, how many sessions are being billed and that kind of stuff. And so I would recommend looking at it, we'll link to it in the show notes, as well as a link to an interview that we had with one of the authors, Barbara Griswold, that when we talked about kind of insurance myths, I think, I think we're coming back around to insurance myths that that episode is quite some time ago. So I think we're going to have some new things to talk about here. But to me, I think the hope in this conversation is that there are folks who will, maybe are considering insurance and shouldn't be. And there are folks who are feeling like they shouldn't accept insurance, but that might actually be better alignment for them. Because I think there's a lot of things that are stated as facts by people who are either like you solely in self pay or private pay practice, or folks who are in very different states. And there's there's a lot of misinformation that I think it's shared or inaccurate information for someone's individual situation. So what are your thoughts? What do you know, as a private pay practice, about taking insurance? And why would you tell people not to take insurance? Maybe let's start there.
Curt Widhalm 03:55
The more of these conversations we have the less that I'm finding myself telling people what they should do. And I will speak broadly to the
Katie Vernoy 04:05
Fair enough.
Curt Widhalm 04:07
Why I see people making some of the decisions that they do. And I know and this is stated in the eBook. Our friend Dr. Ben Caldwell is quoted as saying many clinicians want the stability of income and to not have to market themselves and paneling with insurance allows them to focus on clinical care rather than spending time on marketing. And I think that this is true. There are a number of people who are in our profession who just want to see clients and do work and not have to deal with the stressors of where my next clients coming from. They don't want to deal with a lot of marketing aspects going out to networking sort of things. And for those of you who that's your jam have that be your jam. I am not one of those people, myself, I am. I love the networking and the marketing aspects. It takes a while to be able to build up a reputation in the community with referral sources. Not everybody can afford to take the time to build the practice that way you need the income sooner. And I think one of the themes that you'll probably hear from me a lot throughout today's discussion is just kind of you have to do what's right for you. And there's no one size fits all approach on this. But I also in kind of setting up my practice when I was initially considering applying to be on some of the insurance panels, and was talking with some people in my community, who were panels and hearing how long it takes to actually get panels. Hmm, I found that I was getting clients who were cash pay clients in the meantime, of what that paperwork length of time was going to be anyway. So my practice started to develop cash pay, even while I would have been waiting to get paneled in the first place. So maybe it was just that I was kind of eagerly out there going out and seeking clients and marketing anyway, that at the time was just kind of where, oh, if I'm getting them anyway, why do I need to accept a lower rates of insurance, to see the same people that I'm already getting into my practice?
Katie Vernoy 06:35
That's a really good point for myself, I actually started my private practice while I was working in community mental health, so I didn't have time to market or network or do any of those things. And I, you know, I put my shingle out in an area that didn't have many clinicians. And so I did get some private pay clients while I was credentialing, but I was credentialing without having any clients at all. And without even trying to get clients it was like that was my escape plan, I was going to credential on the side, you know, kind of send those things in. And as I started getting insurance panels, then I was kind of adding clients to my practice. So I think there are different ways that people go about starting a practice. And I think you know, whether you credential or you have someone help you credential, that that is a time gap. I think for some people, it's been up to six months, I don't know what the current timeline is right now. But it can take a long time to get panels, which can be ideal for someone that needs to stay in a community mental health job or a group practice job before they can really go out on their own. I think at this point, once you are paneled, for some panels, you can almost fill up your caseload in a couple of weeks. And so it becomes a an a way to have some solid income. And that stability, because I honestly can say with my insurance based portion of my practice, which is very tight, tiny at this point that I'm going to be private pay very soon. But what I was in the height of my hybrid practice, someone would call, I had a similar specialty or was close enough, and I took their insurance. And it was almost 100%. Close, right. Whereas with the private pay, you know if your marketing well, and your networking well, and all of those things, they may come in already knowing your fee, they may come in already knowing your specialty, and it could be a pretty high close rate. But I've heard more like 10 to 30% close rate sometimes for private pay clients, especially at the beginning.
Curt Widhalm 08:36
Oh, and speaking of the beginning, I also hear in our larger therapist discussions within the therapist community that some panels require people to be licensed for two years, before they can even get on the panel in the first place. And for those, you know, very energetic, freshly licensed people, if that's another limitation, as it was, you know, when I first started my private practice, it was shortly after I got licensed that if it's not even an option to you, and you're looking at developing some of these other marketing and referral network streams. I can say from my vantage point that if my fee is twice as much, and I'm closing only a third of the clients, if that still balances out as far as the number of sessions that I'm seeing, I'm actually potentially even working less than I am if I am panels and seeing fewer clients.
Katie Vernoy 09:36
Well, that's assuming that you're getting the same number of calls, which you don't.
Curt Widhalm 09:41
That is very true, I'll grant you that
Katie Vernoy 09:43
So 100% of 10 versus a third of three is is actually 10% of the clients so so just a little a little math, I think it it does take a while to build a private pay practice it is much more cost efficient as far as your time, and that actually is not necessarily totally true, we should talk about fees in a second. But I think it's something where overall income is very different in the beginning. And then again, very different, when you get to your kind of stable number I think for at the beginning and insurance practice, you can immediately get up to that 50 or 60,000 a year, probably, with a private pay practice, that's going to take a little while, but then you're going to get up to a much higher number, you know, and these are just made up numbers. But like that 100,000 A year or 75,000, a year or 120,000, a year, I think is more likely in a private pay practice than it is in a an insurance practice, or a hybrid.
Curt Widhalm 10:47
And looking at the data from simple practice here, kind of reflecting what Katie is talking about, they have a nice little graph that shows the average number of appointments per billing type in the last 30 days. And those who are doing self pay only, the average number of appointments for the median, I guess, is 28. self pay only over 30 days, that's
Katie Vernoy 11:17
pretty low
Curt Widhalm 11:18
the upper 75th percentiles 55 sessions over a 30 day period. But you compare that to the insurance only. And it's 20 and 46, which are below what those self pay therapists are in
Katie Vernoy 11:36
that. Yeah. And the insurance when the way that that's talked about is those insurance only practice, folks are typically like new group practice, associates kind of that are billing, just insurance, the practices only they're using associates or other folks in the practice for insurance only. So I think the the thing to look at is the hybrid, and the hybrid actually has a lot of appointments. You're looking at it. So what are the numbers for the hybrid practice
Curt Widhalm 12:06
So medians at 55 sessions? That's compared to 28 for the self pay, and the upper 75th percentile is 80 versus 55.
Katie Vernoy 12:17
Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a, it's a fuller practice. Now, whether or not you want a fuller practice, they don't actually say overall income for folks, which I think is interesting, and might be interesting data for them to look at. But I think it's so variable, I think it's hard to say. But I think determining whether you take insurance at the beginning, obviously, if you're not licensed long enough, that's going to be a factor. But I started paneling. I was five years licensed, I was ready to be out of community mental health, or I wanted at least an escape route from Community Mental Health. I got paneled pretty easily. It took a while, but I was still working. And then I was able to start adding clients afterwards. I think if you are able to kind of do the pace of building a private pay practice, that may be the right move for you, depending on where you live. And I think that so the the initial one is, can you have your income ramp up, you know, slowly? Or do you need to have it ramp up quickly? Once you get, you know, panels, I think that's that's the first thing to think about. They didn't say kind of how long insurance clients stay versus private pay. I've got a mix. In my practice, I found that I think more private pay clients are going to finish sooner than insurance clients. But But what is your experience of that? Because you've had private pay for a long time? I mean, do you have a churn rate that's pretty high, where you're having to constantly get new clients? Or do you have clients that stay for long term I mean, I'm a long term therapist, I've got clients for years. So it's, it's a different model.
Curt Widhalm 13:54
I have mostly clients who have stuck with me for quite a while. And while I do have some churn in my practice, I would say as far as my particular caseload goes, that's probably somewhere around 10% of my my caseload. Now, it doesn't mean that I have the same, you know, 90% of the clients forever, but I do tend to have my repeat people coming back after a couple of years off. And so I see relatively few new clients in my practice. So most of my people are lifers. And yeah, you know, I imagined that, you know, if I preview that I'm going to retire in like 30 years that that might create some panic for some of my clients now just knowing that things are going to end so I may not
Katie Vernoy 14:49
We are both long term therapists.
Curt Widhalm 14:51
Yeah
Katie Vernoy 14:52
You may not be the best to say that. And maybe that's another thing potentially if you are a clinician that already has has more of a short term model, if you're already going to have churn with your clients might as well get the best bang for the buck and do private pay or have a huge referral source and get insurance. And so I think it's, it's something where there's a lot of factors in what is going to be the right mechanism for you. The other thing is, is there are very different rates that people charge across the country. And simple practice has that in there, as you know, kind of their private pay full fee. There's also very different insurance rates. And so I don't know if you looked at this chart, but it's, it's crazy, because as California being one of the most expensive places to live, we actually are our middle the middle of the pack or lower part of the pack on what the median insurance reimbursement rate is.
Curt Widhalm 15:51
And looking at this, I have to imagine that a big piece of this is supply and demand, because some of the states with the highest reimbursement rates are South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota. And while there is the Twin Cities in Minnesota, there's a lot of rural area out there. And so I have to imagine that some of the higher rates are being either commanded by therapists were like, look, there's nobody else in town to take your insurance, and they're doing a good job of advocating for themselves for higher reimbursements. Or the insurance companies are trying to draw more practitioners to work in these areas. And, you know, in California, like the building that my office is in, I think that there is and don't quote me on this, I think that there is roughly 8 million therapists that work in my building. And so a, and obviously, not all of us are handled with insurance companies. But I have to imagine that the insurance companies could panel every single therapist and be like we have so many people that we only need to pay you $8 per session.
Katie Vernoy 17:09
Well, I think the problem is that's there's I mean, we could have whole conversations about ghost panels and people being fall and stuff like that, because I certainly still get calls from folks. And they they basically are searching for weeks trying to find someone who accepts their insurance. So I also think that there is a an issue in California with insurance because the the average fee, or the median fee for California I think, is $100. For insurance reimbursement, and 150 is the private pay fee, although the the one in 2018, apparently was 130. So there's, there's a big difference. And you and I are both double insurance rates or more. So it's, it's a huge difference. And if you've designed your fee, and they have some information in this about how you can set your full fee, but if you design your fee based on what you need to make, and the insurance reimbursement rate is half of that, that's a huge difference and needs to be a consideration you I would have to see double the insurance clients to make the same amount of money that I make with my private pay clients there, when we look at places like Oregon, their regular full fee is 165. They're one of the five most expensive places to live, but insurance reimburses them at 130. So that's only a $35 difference, you know, and it's still per session, blah, blah, blah. But it is much closer, it's not half of what the fee is, or, you know, two thirds what the fee is. And, and it's a lot more approachable. Texas is another one that they reported on the average private pay fee, or the medium private pay fee is 125. Insurance is only 88. But it's still only a $37 difference. And so and it's also costs a lot less to live in Texas and live than it does to live in California. And some of these fees. You know, Oregon was the highest one they reported at 130. But if you've got a private pay fee, that's typically around 130 to 150. And insurance is paying you 130 It's not functionally different. And if you've got an almost 100% close rate, and can be choosy. And insurance practice may be awesome. Because you don't have to do the marketing. There's consistency insurance is going to consistently refer to you most when I was taking mostly insurance I had to put outgoing messages saying I'm not currently taking new clients. So people would stop begging me to call them back. And so it's it's this thing of there are places in the country in the United States where taking insurance makes a lot of sense.
Curt Widhalm 19:57
And especially when it does save you some of that time to go out and markets and to pay for SEO and fancy websites and all of that kind of stuff. And this is really where you're looking at your cost basis. And, you know, that's having to look at your finances. And that also includes how you value your time in putting that stuff together. So if it is functionally the same, and it does save you a bunch of other time, makes sense.
Katie Vernoy 20:30
I think the big caveat is the number of clients you're seeing, or need to see to make the money, the total money that you want to make. And then also the amount of time that you'll spend on insurance billing, there are some panels that are great, not a lot of, you know, denied claims, not a lot of work on that part that you know, you get paid easily, you know, I have one panel that I'm still on and I'm getting ready to go off of, but I, if they could just pay me a little bit more, I'd stay on it because I get a direct deposit, almost, you know, a few days after the session. And I've got clients paying 10 or $20, to see me like it's, it's amazing, it's really cool. However, there's other ones where I will charge something, they'll pay me once, they won't pay me another time. And then I have to chase it down. And so when you get into more of that, there is a bigger amount of time that's spent on kind of managing the billing and tracking the billing and doing all those things. A lot of that became really easy when I did it through simple practice. So I will, I will acknowledge them for that, that I at this point, I push a button, it goes through, it tells me if it's been denied, and then I can chase it down. But most of the time, I don't even need to worry about it because I don't have to chase it down.
Curt Widhalm 21:51
Now, one of the other things that I hear from you and some of my other friends who are panels is also that you take the copay, but then you might be waiting several months for the rest of the payments to even find out if it's been approved or not. And one of the considerations of having that cash pay practice is my clients give me the money, and then all of the money is mine. Yeah, right up front. And so yeah, there's, you know, anywhere that gets into, alright, you're getting paid, but when and how and are you able to tie those things back to the specific sessions that, you know, might move you into a, this is gonna be a big part of our discussion here, move you into a different CPT code.
Katie Vernoy 22:43
I think there are definitely situations where people don't get paid right away. And I think sometimes it is due to shifting from an individual contract to a group contract. Or if there's like, I had a situation where I wasn't paid because I had left the panel. And I billed for three sessions for a couple of clients right before I was off the panel. And they said I was off the panel, even though I submitted the claims before the final date, you know, like and so I had to go in and fight them for that. But otherwise, most of the time I get paid right away, like within days, and it goes directly into my bank account. So okay, so I think that there, there is a wide array of experiences here. I think if you have a panel where you're not getting paid, or if you get clawbacks meaning they think they say, Hey, we thought it was covered, but it's not give us the money back. I've never had a clawback. Maybe I should knock on wood here. But like, that sounds awful and horrible. And I think that there are things where we can just say there are times when insurance companies are evil and and are they unnecessary evil? Some people say yes, some people say no, but But yeah, I think there is typically a financial stability when you take insurance. However, if you're not getting paid that financial stability doesn't actually exist. And so you want to be pay attention to it. But let's go to the what you were talking about the kind of the CPT codes as well as number of clients. Sure. So the vast majority of clinicians that bill through simple practice, and this is like over 100,000 users, not all of them are mental health therapists. Some of them have other types of practices. But the vast majority, like 10 times the number of sessions were billed as 90837, which is the 60 minute session or 60 Plus minute session versus 90834, which is 38 to 52 minutes, which fits into that 15 minute hour, right? And insurance companies assume that therapists are going to build that 15 minute hour. And they say that most of our colleagues are billing the 15 minute hour but we know thank you simple practice that most of us are billing 90837 which means it's 53 minutes or more. And it means you actually have to be working clinically with a client for 53 minutes or more. And I think some people may fudge that it can't be you waiting, it can't be the documentation. It can't be the scheduling time that you spend in the in the session. It's actual clinical time. That being said, some folks are getting pushed back and they're having to prove medical necessity for the longer session, which is the 90837. I think that is BS. I think it's it's something where insurance companies, I mean, and the rates for 90837 are way higher. So you do a 52 minute session. And it's like $40, less than or $30, less than a 53 minutes session. It's ridiculous. It's, you know, and so insurance trying to get people to bill last are saying do these shorter sessions? Well, Ben's idea is that we'll just do these 90834, you can do a session, as short as what was it? 38 minutes, you could do a 40 minute session. And then if you can see more clients that way. And that might be a way to make more money in less time, because you do a certain number, there's this is in the thing, but like a certain number of 40 minute sessions, versus a certain number of 60 minute sessions. You know, it's about the same and you're spending less time. And I don't agree, sorry, Ben, I just don't agree. Because it's not just the session time, it's also all the paperwork. But then there's also the clinical case management. If you've got 20 people in crisis versus 30 people in crisis. It's a very different workload.
Curt Widhalm 26:41
Yeah, I, I see where Ben is coming from on this from just a nuts and bolts number thing, and I will always remind people that Ben has not been a practicing therapist for several years.
Katie Vernoy 26:59
And love you, Ben, we love you.
Curt Widhalm 27:03
And, honestly, you know, we do have a lot of love and respect for bed and all of the work that he does, and, you know, simple practice, and practice learning and everything that he's got going on. But I think it's easy to forget the Practice Management sides of things. Yeah. And a lot of the managing caseload sides of things that I'm sure that he will very much acknowledge that he's a little bit out of touch on. It's just not practical. I mean, it's just, it's, it's somebody saying, like, well, if people want more money, why don't they just work more? And?
Katie Vernoy 27:46
Well, I think the argument isn't actually the, to work more, it's, Hey, do shorter sessions, so that you, you have less time in the chair. But it's like, but there's, you know, like, even the task switching of seeing one client versus the next client. I mean, that's not even to mention what we just talked about with billing and, and case management. So I get it. And I actually think that that the other message I want, I want to add to Ben's message and say, Why not allow for some of these shorter sessions, because you could see your client twice a week for 40 minutes. And, and have more of that flexibility of billing code. I mean, there's also information in here, and I'm sure this came from Barbara, which was about, you know, kind of using some of these other codes, like, you know, 90846 is the client is family therapy without the clients you can talk to parents and have it paid for, you know, there's there's crisis codes, there's a lot of stuff there that I think is pretty interesting. But, but you can use insurance a little bit more flexibly, you know, and Bill for everything, it's just then you're taking the time to build for everything. I think the other thing is, I think there was a statement like to avoid burnout See, five to seven clients, five days a week. And 25 doesn't sound bad, but 35 sounds awful. And so I think that there's, there's a need to assess your for yourself. If you have 35 clients and they're mostly insurance, I would recommend having a biller so you're not chasing down, you know, fees, you're not dealing with benefits, checks, that kind of stuff. But if if you can see 35 clients a week, then you're different than me. I can't do it. I don't know that I can do 25. So I think it's something where it's it's sorting out what that looks like. And you can you can do some simple math and I think you had started it. You can make a good living seeing mostly insurance clients. It just is really important that you all have your systems are very clean. Probably you have a biller, at least someone to check benefits and chase down things you know, because insurance on simple practice is literally pushing a button once it's all set up. But it's sorting out how many clients you actually want to see. And do you want to do some of these other things? I mean, to your point earlier, I would rather go out and do some networking, then see another client, right at times, you know, like, I would rather write a little blog post or do a podcast episode with you then see another client, like, when I've gotten through the number of clients that's comfortable for me in the week, I could make more money seeing more clients. But I choose to do that in other ways, and to charge more for those times.
Curt Widhalm 30:33
And it's not that we don't like seeing clients. It's that for
Katie Vernoy 30:38
other things, too. Yeah, exactly.
Curt Widhalm 30:42
So, you know, I do hear and read in some of the therapist forums about, you know, some of these clawbacks things that are happening, some of the rejections of that 90837. Is there anything that can really be done about that?
Katie Vernoy 31:00
There's some specific things in the e book. And I think that the most important thing is to make sure that you're writing actual start and stop times, you know, simple practice defaults to either an hour or 15 minutes, and it starts on the hour, or the whatever the time is that you set the appointment, making sure you actually have the time in there to the minute, if you see somebody for less than 53 minutes that you down, code it to 90834. And I think you want to make sure that you know, we've got different episodes on documentation, I can put in the in the links in the show notes. But it's something where being able to document medical necessity for a longer session, that kind of stuff. I think it's important. I think I got something from one of the insurance panels I was on that basically said, You need to make sure that your notes show that you spent that much time and so anyone that's been in committed mental health knows like, you have to have enough interventions. In your note for that for that long of a session. You know, if you're going to go a full hour, or 53 minutes, plus, you need to make sure your documentation shows that you're not processing one thing. And that's all that you've put down in your note. So those are the things that you can do. It's just Ben's idea of doing shorter sessions and seeing more clients may keep you under the radar radar of insurance companies, they don't see you as overusing 90837. I just don't think it's worth it. I think just do the documentation, make sure that you're you're staying true to the start and stop times and hope for the best.
Curt Widhalm 32:36
Overall reading through this, I can say that my reaction is insurance companies aren't paying as badly as I had thought that they were. Yes. And I don't know how to convey to our listeners how much it actually pains me to say that, that. But there are a lot of individual factors that you have to decide for yourself that if you're wanting to see clients, you're wanting the marketing and the phone calls to be kind of funneled to you being on a panel makes sense. If you're somebody who needs to get out of the office a little bit more, you want to put in a little bit more of that work, and you want to operate partially or fully outside of the insurance systems. There's pathways for you there to both have their advantages and disadvantages. But I was really surprised to see that out of the 1000s of users that simple practice has those rates are a lot closer than I would have expected them to be.
Katie Vernoy 33:49
Yeah, well, and I think a big point there is that if you're wanting to have an accessible practice, and you're wanting to do that, for a lot of clients, insurance is potentially a better way to do it, because clients will pay, I think the median copay was about $15. Whereas if you slide down to $30, or 50 $60, or $70, or $80, you're going to make less than insurance. Now, if you're doing it for a couple of spots, you're doing it through open path or you're doing those kinds of things as a small give back, I think that's very much appropriate. But if you're doing it for your whole caseload, where your whole caseload is sitting around the median insurance fee, you will make the same amount potentially more because you will not have to market it yourself. Your clients will pay less than they're paying you now. You just have to get through the the insurance paperwork and that kind of stuff. So I think I think there's going to be different factors for everyone. But if you're sliding your fee, down to 100 or below $100 typically anyway You may make more on insurance than you are right now.
Curt Widhalm 35:04
We would love to hear your feedback and what you're doing with your practice. And the best way to do that is join our Facebook community, the modern therapist group, you can also let us know on our social media. And we'll include links to all of that and the stuff from simple practice and what Katie mentioned in our show notes, you'll find those over at MTS G podcast calm. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 35:30
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Curt Widhalm 35:33
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Katie Vernoy 35:57
Visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code modern therapist. Once again, visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.
Announcer 36:22
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
When Clients Have to Manage Their Therapists Curt and Katie chat about the work (or mental load) therapists often give to clients that is really ours. We talk about requiring our clients to do things that are not helpful to treatment like: manage our time, do excessive paperwork, negotiate through our money stuff, be guinea pigs, or teach us about their culture or other differences. We also look at the impact of these abdications of responsibility on the therapeutic relationship and the clinical work.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * When we give more work to clients (that isn’t really good therapy) * The mental load or emotional labor that therapists can unwittingly add for clients * Time management and the impact of poor practices on clients * Being late, managing the shape of the session, scheduling * The difference between being authentic and being irresponsible * The care you show when managing rescheduling and the impact on the relationship * What can come up, especially related to attachment wounds * The problem when you consistently forget to get back to your clients * Paperwork as a burden on clients, especially when clinicians don’t read the paperwork * The message you give when you don’t follow up on a client’s homework * When outcome measures feel like paperwork that is solely for the benefit of the therapist, rather than something that feels relevant to the client * Feedback Informed Treatment (FIT) poorly implemented * Delayed billing, not providing superbills timely * Allowing a balance to accrue * The power dynamic and power imbalance when clients owe therapists a sizable amount * The labor we’re giving to our clients when don’t have structure on payment (sliding scale fees and payment plans) * How our own money stuff might come into these conversations * Adding new theories or trying new interventions on clients without a strong clinical rationale * The danger to the client’s trust in the process if we throw new interventions in each week * The mental load of asking our clients to teach about their own experience or navigating therapist bias * Identifying a lack of fit or when treatment is over (rather than forcing our clients to do so) * Own our humanness and set ourselves up for success * Why this work sometimes gets handed to clients (rigidity, therapy culture)
Our Generous Sponsor: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
These days, word of mouth referrals just aren’t enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they’re looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you! That’s where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in.
Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice.
They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you.
Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST"
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Very Bad Therapy: A Clinical on Unprofessionalism
Relevant Episodes:
Work Harder Than Your Clients
Clinical Versus Business Decisions
How to Fire Your Clients Ethically
How to Fire Your Clients Ethically Part 1.5
Diversity and Cultural Competence
Special Populations
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is brought to you by Simplified SEO consulting.
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.
Curt Widhalm 00:21
Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.
Announcer 00:26
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:41
Welcome back, modern therapist, this is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about therapy about our practices, things that we do to have more successful practices and leave our clients in better places promote healing in the worlds. And today's episode is inspired by a client's comments about the work that therapists make clients do outside of the work that therapists make clients do. And this is the ways that we make our clients do some of the practice stuff for us, or that our bad practice habits end up giving people bad therapy experiences. So this is not necessarily about the clinical work, but things that we do that potentially start to affect the clinical work. And going through kind of some brainstorming on this. And we posted this question the night before recording this out on our Twitter feed, we got exactly zero responses from anybody. So this is a list of things to
Katie Vernoy 01:55
Maybe we should have put it in our Facebook group, where we get responses. Next time guys next time.
Curt Widhalm 02:01
But we came up with a list of things, this is probably a non exhaustive list. And you can go to our effort mentioned Twitter or Facebook group and continue to add meaningfully to this list. But things that clients have identified are also the importance of being on the other side of the couch things that we've identified, the end up just being bad therapy experiences. So Katie, what first comes to your mind on this.
Katie Vernoy 02:33
I think the the thing that comes first to my mind is probably the way that we manage time. Because for me, I worked in a clinic mental health clinic, a mental health clinic where time seemed very dynamic and fluid and things just never started on time. And it was something that bothered me, I equally participated in it. But it's something that I found is important for me, I want to make sure I'm on time that if I tell my client that we're going to reschedule that I have a time available for them and, and that I manage time properly within my session. But I have heard from clients that that is not always the case. In fact, I'll link to this in the show notes, there was an episode that I supported very bad therapy on where a client who reported on their story was given tons of paperwork after their therapist was 30 minutes late to the intake session. And just the types of things with that are just hugely problematic. But like if we're not respecting your client's time, if we're not rescheduling and like managing the rescheduling process, if we're going over which I have to admit, sometimes I go on that one where we don't manage time properly. In this session, we're forcing our clients to kind of work around us or manage the time for us. I know as a therapist, I'm always tempted to manage the time for my therapist, she actually is good with it. But like I still am like, oh, well, I know we need to finish. You know, like, I feel like when that's happening there is there's work that the client must do that doesn't seem fair.
Curt Widhalm 04:21
And the way that this plays out is I've had people describe this to me as we understand that therapists have their own lives, have their own reactions have their own shit that just comes up and a lot of things that we encourage therapists to be out about, you know, hey, I'm going to a conference that's gonna affect our sessions that we need to reschedule things. But I've heard statements around this as far as like, Oh, I'm going to a conference. I need to reschedule. I'm needing to move a couple of people around I'll get back to you in a couple of days with what your options for rescheduling for next week might be. And then not following up with the clients that ends up putting the clients in positions of do I need to call back is my therapist actually going to follow through. So these are really kind of small afterthought things that can have a great deal of impact on our clients as far as pushing some of the scheduling responsibility back over to them. Now, parts of the ways of getting around this is if you have a good, you know, scheduling system that allows for clients to be able to put themselves on your schedule, hey, you know, I'm going to this conference next week, we could spend a few minutes right now doing this or set a reminder for, you know, tomorrow to check back and I'll have my availability up there, and you'll be able to book an appointment for what's available. And that can be one way of helping to alleviate this problem.
Katie Vernoy 06:08
Yes. And I think that the message that we send, if we don't immediately take care of it, or, or have a solution for it, I think is one of I don't care about your session. I mean, to me, it's respectful to take the time to to do the rescheduling, especially if you've got a couple of minutes that aren't going to take away from clinical time. And I think the the message of I've got a few things to move around, and then I will get back to you and not getting back to kind of put somebody in a in a hierarchy of how important they are to you. And to me, it just feels, I think it hurts the relationship when you disregard them. And you don't get them scheduled immediately. Or you don't show the importance of getting them scheduled and taking care of their time immediately. In my opinion.
Curt Widhalm 07:00
You know for some of the clients that I've seen that have described this, it's their people who seem really high functioning in many areas of their lives.
Katie Vernoy 07:11
Sure.
Curt Widhalm 07:11
But this does bring out a lot of attachment wounds, especially if there's been relational traumas in their lives. And it might not be something that is at the forefront of your mind as a practitioner, when you're managing your practice of looking at just how deeply impactful those between session contacts or absence of contacts can end up happening with clients from all walks of life, but particularly from these clients.
Katie Vernoy 07:41
And I want to cover another element of this because there was a period of time, not lately because of the pandemic. But when I was traveling a lot, or I was doing a lot of things, I did reschedule a lot. And some people would say that de facto is disrespectful to clients, and you set your weekly time and you keep it and that kind of stuff. And for me, and maybe that's why I've gotten very comfortable with rescheduling. But if the communication is open, and there's a clear value that you hold for them and their session time, I think you can reschedule maybe not as much as you want. But I think that you can still do it. But I think if you forget to call them back, and you make them be the ones that reach out, I think that's when it gets problematic. I think folks can live their lives travel all they want, do what they want. I think it's just take care of your clients in the process. Hold those times make sure that you make it available for them, and help them to reschedule don't make them do it.
Curt Widhalm 08:36
So is kind of shifting gears here a little bit. But also speaking on responsiveness. You brought up paperwork. So first of all, there's just the sheer amount of paperwork. Yes, and depending on the kind of practice that you have, sometimes agencies are going to have mountains and mountains of paperwork. And from a bureaucratic standpoint, it might be because there's multiple people within the agency who are interacting with a client if there's a medical component of the agency justifying paperwork, and I don't want to do that. But for, you know, more private practice II type places that there can be a lot of good intentions with paperwork, but a complaint that I hear from some of my students, some of my clients about other therapists experiences is does that paperwork ever actually end up getting used for anything or is it just filling stuff out for filling it out sake?
Katie Vernoy 09:42
Yes, yes. I think that's the piece that I that really bothers me. I know. Like when I go to a doctor's office, you know, whether it's an intake or an annual appointment or whatever, so much paperwork, and they clearly don't have time to read it and then they asked Be the Same questions right afterwards. And I know that that happens with therapists as well. I personally probably have a couple too many pieces of paperwork that I feel like I need to have. And they are really just kind of forms that people sign. But all of the assessment stuff I do read, and I am, it's clear when I see my clients that I read it, but I think there are a lot of folks that feel like they have to have all of this information. But there's arguments about having it at intake before intake after intake, you know, like people can argue clinically when they want to ask for all this information, but having so much paperwork to get through to walk in the door, and then have it clear that my clinician has not read it drives me bonkers.
Curt Widhalm 10:46
I was at a presentation several years ago at this point that the speaker was a psychiatrist who was talking about the last days of one of their parents being in a hospital, end of life sort of things. But every doctor that was making their rounds, they learned after a couple of days that they just needed to ask the doctor before saying anything like have you read the chart that. So this is this is not just particular to therapists experiences that overall in healthcare we can get, especially when we're busy really into that habit of just kind of making our clients catch us up on things rather than going back through notes, you know that that P part of SOAP Notes of even just going back and following up on what I also hear from a lot of clients, which is following up on homework, that we assign clients to do things. But if we don't bring it back up in session, we're giving them a pass to not do it. But yeah, it also backs up the quality of our work, or the emphasis on the suggestions that we make when we do ask and follow up on referrals on homework tasks on different ways of doing things that if clients are like, alright, I don't need to do this, or if they're the ones like I did the homework, do you want to talk about it? But the answer, probably Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 12:19
Yes, yes. And I know I've had that happen, where I either failed to write down the specific homework assignment in the progress section of my note, or the plan section of the notes, sorry, or I was kind of waiting to see if it was relevant. And I think in truth, that means that the client may feel responsible to bring it up and feel like they have to manage it, and or they just start start disregarding it. So I think that's a really good one. And I think being able to manage our own documentation properly, so that we can have that continuity of care from session to session, I think is really important. And if we're not managing the continuity of care, you know, I think we joked and a few probably in a few different presentations and conversations about self care, just like, Oh, what was most you know, what was most, you know, resonant with you last week, you know, when you don't remember what you talked about like that that's really making the client, it puts them in the driver's seat? I think there are clinical reasons to do that. But I think if you're structured enough that you're actually asking for homework, follow up.
Curt Widhalm 13:33
And you don't want to be that therapist, it's kind of doing the, you know, the psychic out in front of the audience, like I'm sensing, sensing an H over here. Was there something in your last week that that starts to age? Hey, speaking of things that we can overload clients with your this is from your list, lots of outcome measures without either buy in about it, or showing what you're doing with those outcome measures.
Katie Vernoy 14:06
Yes, yes. Yeah, I think the thing for me is on my therapist for a while was doing feedback, informed treatment. And I was like meh and and she did drop it. So that's good. Maybe I shouldn't say that outloud
Curt Widhalm 14:21
maybe they weren't doing feedback, informed treatment. It was just feedback informed treatment flavored therapy.
Katie Vernoy 14:28
Maybe No, I we did talk about it a little bit. But I was also anyway, that's a whole other conversation that I can have with my therapist. But I think when I'm thinking about that, that was my experience of like, I don't want to do feedback informed treatment. I'll tell you if I need something different. Stop asking me questions. Stop spending time in my session on this paperwork that you want me to fill out is kind of how it felt to me. So I'm, and I knew what it was like I didn't need her to explain it to me. So I also was having my own experience of it. But back in Community Mental Health, there were tons of outcome measures that were put together to, for funding streams, like we had to show progress, we had to do this stuff. And, you know, we had to do them quarterly or different things like that. And theoretically, if you actually use those, clinically, I could see the benefit. But most of the clinicians didn't, they just had to get it done. And so it had that piece of like, here, fill out these 27 different scales. And then we'll be done. And we can get back to the business of therapy versus actually using them clinically. And so to me, first off having 27 different scales, and I exaggerate a little, I think is is overkill, and I think not using them clinically is is just bureaucracy at its worst.
Curt Widhalm 15:48
And don't just blame this on agencies. There are people who, if you are some of my fit people out there, you know what I'm talking about, but it's for the people who think that they're doing fit that aren't, that are just kind of taking up session time, they're not explaining how they're using this information with clients that really just ends up Compounding this problem. Yeah. Now, on the opposite end of too much paperwork is maybe not giving enough paperwork, and not necessarily just assessments, but this is following through on things like super bills. And yeah, letting you know, months and months stack up before clients are reaching out to you and saying, Hey, I'm thinking that, you know, my insurance company isn't going to reimburse me for things that happened last year, that you're getting that far behind. Yeah, you know, the this is things that now start to impact potentially the the contracts that you got clients into your practice with, as far as, you know, if part of clients decision making processes, I'm coming to you because at least I'm getting a few dollars back on my therapy sessions, because of a super bill. This is something that starts to have a financial impact on clients.
Katie Vernoy 17:20
Yeah, I definitely have had clients that I forgot I was doing a super bill for and they reminded me fortunately, it was not too far out. And we were still able to get it done. But I think that's, that's hard. I mean, that's part of the process that we say we're going to do. And if we don't do it, and they and they have to remind us, I mean, granted, this is them getting their money back. But if we've said, Hey, I will provide you with a super bill, we need to live up to that into the bargain. I think there's also courtesy billing and different things. We talked about some of this stuff in work harder than your clients on ways that you can show up better and and maybe even in some of the other conversations we've had on kind of the highest level of customer service, I'll look back and see what we've actually done episodes on, then put those in the show notes. But I think, to me, I think if we're not billing timely, and like with insurance, billing, if we're not billing timely, and we don't get paid, I think we just hold that. Like, if we didn't do it, we don't get paid. But if we're billing really late, and we're also not collecting payments until we know what the copay is going to be, or until we know how much has been covered. We can end up with big balances that clients have. And we know there's there's a lot of guidance around that. But I think that can start to happen. Even if you don't bill or don't charge them a reasonable copay. Like, except like once a month. That means for some clients, that's fine, and you can figure out the cadence with them. But I think if we're not doing things timely, and all of a sudden a client owes like 1000s of dollars or hundreds of dollars for some clients, it's it's overwhelming, and it creates a little bit of a rupture within the therapy relationship.
Curt Widhalm 19:02
It really does heighten the power imbalance that not only are the traditional therapist client power balances there, but then it's also this is somebody that I'm indebted to, and especially if it's multiple sessions that for whatever reason, that therapist hasn't built the client, then clients might not actually be bringing that up. And, you know, not everybody's great at budgeting their money. So if they get hit with multiple sessions of Yeah. You're then putting yourself into, at best trying to work out a payment plan with them. versus, you know, potentially, it being the end of the therapeutic relationship and somebody that owes you money just as potentially gone.
Katie Vernoy 19:56
Yeah, I mean, I think that is loss of money for clinicians, and I think we should be pretty motivated to not do that. But I think about like setting up payment plans or even like a sliding scale when there's not any structure to it's like kind of pay what you can. There is a clinical element to this, I think. But I think there's also some emotional labor that we're giving to our clients to try to figure out what they can say they can afford that feels acceptable to you, or what their timeline is for the payment plan, or whatever it is, and all of a sudden, this relationship has become very different. And I feel like the more structure that the therapist can give, the less we're putting our money stuff on our clients, because I think sometimes sliding scales and pay payment plans and stuff like that are very needed. And sometimes they're because clinicians aren't willing to turn folks away or refer folks to appropriate resources. And so then it becomes this weird push pull of, well, if you can get high enough, then maybe I can see you. And, you know, it's it really becomes this weird dynamic. And maybe that's overstating it, but it feels really strange to me, I feel like it's been a lot, it's a lot easier when someone has a specific copay, or I say, This is my fee, and they say yes or no.
Curt Widhalm 21:13
Why longer that I practice, because of some of these points, the more that I look at things from a practice management, and that it simplifies things. And I look at it from a legal and ethical end to that, it's acknowledging that as the providers, we have the responsibilities to set boundaries, especially around kind of more taboo sort of things in polite society that we don't talk about money in this way. It puts us in the position of even if we're very equal, driven in the way that we approach the work that we do with our clients that this is just kind of handing off all of that responsibility as you described.
Katie Vernoy 22:02
Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's probably a mechanism to have a Pay What You can practice, and I am thinking of someone in particular, and I have a sense that she's probably doing it very well. And so maybe I'm gonna reach out to her so you know who you are, I'm reaching out to you. But I feel like it has to be handled very, very well. And there needs to not be kind of this ulterior motive around it, because then it's like, I'm putting my stuff on you versus really opening up my practice to exactly what you can pay. If you can pay $2, or you can pay $250, you're in the door is a very different thing, then, what can you pay? Can you pay this? Can you pay that? Well, I can only do this, can you do that? Like it just this the bargaining, I feel like just creates a completely different relationship. And maybe maybe I'm too in my own money stuff and need to solve it. But I feel like that's putting our stuff onto the clients.
Curt Widhalm 22:58
So switching gears here, some, a lot of us love to add new skills to our practice, add new tips, add new interventions, add new theories, and you're encouraged to practice them. Yes. But clients who know that they're the ones who are being practiced on, it should be done in a way that they are buying into, it's not just, I came from this workshop this weekend, and this is the first time that I am using all of these interventions, that that is doing therapy that is not practicing therapy, and that is doing therapy poorly. And
Katie Vernoy 23:40
yeah,
Curt Widhalm 23:41
go ahead.
Katie Vernoy 23:41
I was just gonna say, I know that I've been guilty. Sometimes I'm like, this is such a cool intervention. And I was thinking about you the whole time. And I think it would be great. And then we try it. And sometimes it's cool. And sometimes it's like, Oh, I was way more excited about that than I really thought about it. So I know I'm guilty of this.
Curt Widhalm 24:01
And I think it's natural, especially earlier in our careers to want to try out and especially as you're trying to find what your theory is that part of getting a theory is just trying things out and being able to see what works for you. But I've had clients respond back or heads supervisees clients that this ends up becoming discussions and supervision of, well, that's nice, but what's your success rate with this that makes them even just question the effectiveness, whether they're, whether the clinician is good at it or not. That just kind of devalues the belief that it's actually going to work from the clients end.
Katie Vernoy 24:47
Yeah. Yeah, I think the longer I work with a client, the more we're able to kind of play around with new things, see what's happening, but like if it's especially a newer client, where it feels like I'm coming in each week with a completely new theory. Without a lot of understanding, yeah, it feels like I'm just grasping at straws. And so I think it is important, regardless of how excited you are of an orientation, or a new new intervention that you really, how does that flow into the work that's already happening? Is it relevant? Or is it just does it just sound like fun? I think some of the folks who read us putting a mental load on our clients will probably think this is what we were going to talk about. So I want to make sure we do talk about it. This is what we talked about all of the podcasts, I didn't want to miss it. What I put together my little list, which is us, not having knowledge, especially cultural or specific demographic kind of information, and asking our clients to teach us, I think this across all of our clinical episodes is basically what every clinician who's talking about a population of folks that we didn't necessarily learn about in grad school, says is that what they get wrong, is that they make clients teach them. And they also make bad assumptions and all of that. And so then the clients, if they stay has to do the work of teaching us they have to do the work of navigating our bias, they have to determine if it's if we're the right therapist for them. And so I think, I don't know that we have to go deeply into this topic, because like, probably three quarters of the episodes of our podcast, maybe that's an exaggeration, half of the episodes of our podcast on this very thing. But I think what we're requiring our clients to teach us about that, all that makes them them from the ground up versus coming from a place of I have some knowledge, and how does that impact your life? And tell me a little bit more about your particular perspective? I think that is an emotional load that I think is extremely harmful for us to put on the clients.
Curt Widhalm 26:56
And I think if you approach that as more likely to be harmful than not from that approach. Yeah, it's not to say that it doesn't work. And you know, despite all of the experience that I have in my career, that sometimes it's even just owning my side of the street of here's my experience with this particular presentation, this particular culture, even sharing with them from session to session. Here's what I've been reading about since last time, as it pertains to this area that demonstrates a better way of handling this, as opposed to, hey, why don't you teach me about your fill in the blank difference of culture from mine, that assumes kind of that dominant thing. So if that dead horse is not already beaten.
Katie Vernoy 27:54
But we'll, we'll, a link to a section of our podcast episodes that has a lot of those types of beginning beginner information that you can start with if you've got a client that has some differences that you don't know much about.
Curt Widhalm 28:09
And I think that that goes into the next thing on your list here, which is identifying a lack of fit overall, yeah. With and this doesn't have to be just immediately before the first session, but even in the first session or so appropriately, being able to say, I don't think that I can help you. Or there's somebody who is better at helping you or my skills, don't line up with what you need out of therapy at this point. And then providing a warm handoff to somebody who can, that, you know, it's hard enough for many clients to, especially first time therapy seekers find a therapist that meets many of their requirements, costs, location, specialty, this kind of stuff. And then to just kind of throw those clients back to the beginning of the process is a very difficult aspect of just where our healthcare system is. But this is part of why we build the networks that we do to say, Hey, I know somebody who might be a better fit for you on this than I am. And being able to own that in a non shaming way.
Katie Vernoy 29:27
We've talked about this a few times, and we have a couple of episodes on how to fire our clients ethically, if you've started down the path and recognize that you're not the right therapist for them. And so being able to, you know, whether it's identifying that you're not a fit anymore, or they might need somebody else at this point, I think that's our responsibility and not our clients kind of fading away. And to that point, we need to be the ones that identify the end of treatment, when it's clinically relevant. If it's like, Hey, I've got what I need. I'm going to come back later, or those types of things that can be either collaborative, or the clients choice, the client can always choose to end treatment. But if you're recognizing it's time to end treatment, and you don't say it, because you don't want to lose a client, then the client has to say it later. And that's not fair to them.
Curt Widhalm 30:19
So all of these are extra considerations for helping your clients having good experience with your management of your practice of being able to come to therapy for the reasons that they think that they're coming to therapy for. And, you know, I think that we've probably got a upcoming episode here to be recorded, but helping to talk with clients about what realistic expectations of therapy are, yeah, that if we're really honest about it, it's, you know, realistic expectations. If your honest list is, I'm going to be late on emailing you things, or I'm going to be chaotic and scheduling you. But we encourage you to own your stuff. If you wouldn't feel comfortable owning that to potential clients. These are ways of being able to consider the impacts and really being able to look at your own therapeutic relationships with your therapists of what goes beyond just what's happening in the therapy room.
Katie Vernoy 31:31
And I think there are many of these things that probably each of us, you know, I'm talking about you and me, as well as, as all of our listeners, we there's many of these things that we've all done at some point. And I think part of it is being human, we get excited about a treatment and we try it before we really think through the whole clinical plan, or we're late or we forget to get back to our client or whatever it is like I think all of us have at least a few if not all of these somewhere in our history. I've been a therapist for 20 years. So of course these things have come up. But I think if we can own our humaneness and set ourself up for success, we minimize these things. Yes. And I think if we don't get overwhelmed, we don't, you know or don't aren't consistently in a state of overwhelm, I think we can manage these things a lot better. I think the reasons that I came up with it, sometimes these things happen that I think are worth investigation, and maybe in another conversation about clinical orientation, or how we view ourselves in the profession. But I do feel like there is a rigidity that sometimes happen. And I've seen this in in some different kinds of topics. And we talked about it a little bit in some recent episodes. But when we feel like our clients need to take on this emotional load, because it's their responsibility, or it's part of the clinical element of things, you know, clients must do this, because it's their thing. I just, I feel like I need to remind folks like, therapy is a weird beast, we do things in a particular way. And is there's a culture that we've created around what therapy is what the relationship looks like, all of these things that our clients may not know. And so the fact that they should remember their appointment time, or they should do, they should always be the one managing their scheduling, or whatever it is, you know, like, if there's something that they should do that if they don't do it, then it's clinically indicated. And I create sometimes there's clinical communication that can happen there. But when we when we put our filter of what a good therapy client does over someone who maybe has never had therapy or has never had therapy with you, you're putting stuff on them that I don't think is necessarily accurate.
Curt Widhalm 33:54
So, we'd love to hear your thoughts on all of this stuff you can let us know on our social media or come join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 34:08
Thanks again to our sponsor Simplified SEO Consulting.
Curt Widhalm 34:12
These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website or they can do the optimizing for you.
Katie Vernoy 34:35
Visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code modern therapist. Once again, visit simplifiedSeoconsulting.com/moderntherapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.
Announcer 35:00
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
How to Be Accessible Beyond the Sliding Scale An interview with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW, about how therapy can be accessible (and not just financially). Curt and Katie chat with Lindsay about capitalism versus money exchange, the social enterprise model, and how therapists can make a good living without feeling like greedy capitalists. We also explore the many different types of accessibility and the importance of setting your fees based on your needs and values rather than as a mechanism to single-handedly fix the broken system or to meet an artificial money goal.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW, Mind Money Balance Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (she/her) is a biracial financial therapist, speaker, and author of the book "The Financial Anxiety Solution." In her therapy practice, Mind Money Balance, she uses shame-free financial therapy to help people get their minds and money in balance. She's expanded her services to help private practice therapists with their money mindset, sustainable pricing, and authentic marketing so they can include financial self-care in their work. She lives with her partner and their dog on the traditional land of the Fox, Peoria, Potawatomi, and Anishinabewaki peoples also known as Michigan.
In this episode we talk about: * How therapy can be more accessible (and not just monetarily) * The money “shit” that gets in the way of us thinking about other options for accessibility * Decreasing stigma and the notion that therapy is by and for white folks * Are we making our practices accessible for all sorts of folks? * ADA compliance, supporting neurodivergent and disabled folks * Cultural competence, the ability to apply that in sessions with clients who are different than us * Being embedded in our communities * Taking therapy out of the shadows * The challenges in getting out and having a larger voice * How accessibility is intertwined with therapist visibility * How to become part of your community in effective and impactful ways * Financial ways to make your practice more accessible beyond sliding scale * Social Enterprise Model: intersection of what you do well, what values you stand for, and what can you get paid well to do * Feeling like a greedy capitalist * What it means to be paid well * How to think about setting your fees * Fee-setting based on what you need to survive and thrive (not capitalist principles) * The problem with “know your worth” * The big cognitive shift required to move from community mental health pricing and work-life balance, fees * Tying money to quality of life, not specific monetary goals * Getting to “enough” not more and more * Capitalism versus money exchange * The wealth of knowledge we have as therapists (and how therapists take it for granted and/or devalue it) * Sharing your knowledge as a mechanism of accessibility to your whole community * To practice self-care, you have to be able to afford it
Our Generous Sponsor: Trauma Therapist Network Trauma is highly prevalent in mental health client populations and people are looking for therapists with specialized training and experience in trauma, but they often don't know where to start.
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There are so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan, LCSW-C created Trauma Therapist Network.
Trauma Therapist Network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work and what they specialize in, so potential clients can find them.
Trauma Therapist Network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in, populations served and therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them.
The Network is more than a directory, though. It's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consult and network with colleagues around the country. Join our growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code: MTSG20 at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
www.mindmoneybalance.com
https://www.instagram.com/mindmoneybalance/
Lindsay’s podcast: Mind Money Balance
Relevant Episodes:
Lindsay’s previous podcast episode: Financial Therapy
Katie Read: Therapists Shaming Therapists
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Making Access More Affordable
Asking for Money
Reimagining Therapy Reimagined
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by trauma therapist network.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Trauma therapist network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work, and what they specialize in so potential clients can find them. Visit traumatherapistnetwork.com to learn more,
Curt Widhalm 00:27
listen at the end of the episode for more about the trauma therapist network.
Announcer 00:31
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:47
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about things that we do things that we don't do things that maybe we should do. And both Katie and our guests today are looking at me like, where is this going? And honestly, this is just one of those rambling intros that we have. So rather than making this more awkward, we're joined once again by Lindsey Bryan Podvin. She's been a guest to the show before spoken at therapy reimagined with us, talking to us about money and ways that we could be looking at it for our practice. So thank you for joining us again.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 01:35
Oh, yeah, I'm really happy to be here. This is my favorite thing to chat about, and to be in community with you guys. Again, it's fun.
Katie Vernoy 01:43
Oh, we're so glad to have you back. And we'll definitely link to your previous episode in our show notes. But for folks who haven't heard from you for a while, or for our new listeners, tell us who you are and what you're putting out into the world.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 01:57
Yeah, so as Curt mentioned, my name is Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. I'm a social worker, and financial therapist, and I have kind of two arms of what I'm putting out there into the world, I have my clinical arm, and then I have my consulting arm. So in my clinical world, I'm doing financial therapy, which is helping clients with the emotional and psychological side of money, which spoiler alert is all of it, I think. And then, on the consulting side, I know you all know that therapists have money, shit, and we have a lot of hang ups about it. And so in my consulting arm, I help mostly other therapists, though, over the past year, I'll say that other kind of helping professionals have woven their way in, whether it's dietitians, acupuncturist, Reiki healers, because I think a lot of us get similar messaging about what money is and what it isn't. And so I help them work on their emotional and psychological relationship with money so they can have sustainable and profitable businesses. And I do, like outside of the the hands on work, or the zoom work, I suppose I have a podcast and Instagram, a pretty active blog and an email list that keeps me using my creative side of my brain.
Katie Vernoy 03:13
Nice. I love it.
Curt Widhalm 03:15
One of the big discussions that's been in the social justice aspects of our field, especially for private practitioners, and admittedly also here on our show, is talking about things like accessibility and being able to make our services go beyond just those top paying cash pay clients. Can you walk us through kind of what you hear in these discussions about accessibility for practices, and especially as it relates to some of these monetary issues?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 03:50
Yeah, I think as therapists we get really stuck on accessibility being only a monetary issue. So we think about solving for that problem by sliding our scale or by offering pro bono spaces. But we forget about all the other ways in which we can and should be accessible if that works in alignment with us. So as I think you guys were talking with Katie read about like the the the money talk that comes up on therapists forums and how there's so much guilt and shame and, and judgment about what people do or don't do, whether they do or don't take insurance, whether they do or don't slide their scale, but that's where most of us get stuck. And there are so many things beyond sliding our scale and the fee that we charge that can bring about accessibility for our practices and in our communities.
Katie Vernoy 04:45
What are some of the things that we can think about beyond sliding scale because I think I get stuck there as well with and maybe this is just our focus is that we're so focused on the monetary aspects and our own money shit as you described it, and We aren't thinking about what else isn't making us accessible.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 05:03
Yeah, I think taking a few steps back before a client even finds our website or finds us on a therapist directory, really thinking about how can we make our field more accessible by talking about what is therapy, I think in a lot of communities, we still have these stigmas that therapy is buy in for white people. And it's done on a couch with, you know, a person who's got reinforced elbows and they're smoking a pipe, right? You know, like, we have that imagery. And if we are not talking to our communities about what therapy is and who it is for, and how it can be helpful by not just talking about what it is, but also the stigma reduction, we don't even get people landing on our websites or knocking on our, you know, figurative door, right. So being in our communities and talking about what it is and who it's for, and how it can be helpful. And also talking about just the ins and outs of therapy, that it is confidential. I think in a lot of communities, there's a fear that if I go to a therapist, then you know, my mom's cousins going to find out about it, or that my employer will be told about it, or that my partner will be told about it. So I think there's some education that has to happen on the backend before people even get to our doors. And then in terms of other measures of accessibility outside of this scale. Let's get really granular on on what is accessibility? Do our clients see themselves reflected in the way that we practice therapy? Can clients who have disabilities, either neurodiversity or physical limitations, do they have actual access to our offices? Are they ADA compliant? Do we offer you know, nowadays, so many of us offer basically zoom therapy? Which makes it so much more accessible? Are we operating on bus routes and public transportation? Is there easy parking, like the literal accessibility piece? And then the cultural competency piece? Can they speak my language? If I don't speak English? Do I have somebody sitting across from me in the therapy room? Who gets what I'm talking about? When we talk about cultural competence? Not just thinking about, you know, whether or not you took a class on Southeast Asian Studies. But what does that mean? And how does that show up in our spaces, and being embedded in our community beyond just like, hiding in this little bubble, where we're kind of shrouded in mystery, I think, taking therapy out of the shadows and making it more commonplace in our communities, like we are healers in our communities. And we shouldn't be hiding behind the walls of like mystery what when there are community events, I would love to see more therapists out and they're out and about, as sponsors, as networkers and things like that, like, we also have to take ourselves out of the shadow. So there's, there's a lot of different ways we can talk about accessibility.
Curt Widhalm 07:59
So I love what you're saying, I completely agree with getting out there. There's some some stumbling steps that can happen in putting ourselves out there, because so much of our history is in being shrouded to the, you know, the shadows. And sometimes the responses that I hear from clinicians is, oh, that person went out and was talking about this, but didn't represent themselves. Well, it isn't representing the field. Well, do you have any advice as far as taking some of these steps? You know, look at you, and all of the things that you post in your newsletters and social media and this kind of stuff, money seems to be kind of like a fairly neutral ground as far as being able to talk about relationships with money. For those who are looking to maybe take some other steps as far as making this accessibility happen, that might be around more unique issues to communities. Do you have any suggestions on how people might find the confidence to be able to make those steps?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 09:03
Yeah, I really like this question. Because I think that accessibility and visibility are are intertwined. And visibility isn't just social media. So let's say you do want to be more accessible in your community and you do want to be more visible in your community, but you're talking about something that is more sensitive, like you know, sexual trauma, then yeah, maybe going on in doing an Instagram live about it isn't probably the most appropriate way because you don't know who's on the other side of it, you really can't create a container of people to make sure that it's safer or at least safer. So maybe in that instance, it's going to, you know, a high school and pulling a you know, having a group of 30 kids that you are talking to about this in like a speaking engagement setting or maybe it is going to the healthcare system and sitting down and talking to the medical social workers about what you know, or to the nurse midwives about what you know, right there. Different ways to get out and become a part of the community that don't involve these kind of one way one sided communication methods. Does that make sense?
Katie Vernoy 10:11
It does, I think this idea of making the whole profession more accessible to folks and all folks, and not just the kind of historical white people and the, the, the patches and the pipes. I think that to me is, it's really, really important. And I think it also is only a first step. Because when they get to our door is there still is I think, you know, financial accessibility concerns for a lot of folks. And so are there financial ways to be accessible that don't involve involves sliding your scale?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 10:48
Yeah, of course. So, undoubtedly, money is a real accessibility issue. I'm not just saying like, Oh, you know, just get out there. That's it sounds it? All. Right, exactly. Exactly. An email newsletter is not going to fix accessibility. But as you guys have also talked about on this podcast, it's not the responsibility of an individual therapist, to fix the broken medical system salute here. And at the same time, there are more creative ways to provide services to people in your community that are might be easier on their pocketbooks. So group therapy is also a really great option, because you as the clinician are still generating the revenue that you need to, and the people on the other side are usually paying you less dollars per session. Insurance, I know there's a big again, it's not your job to accept insurance if they don't reimburse you well, but accepting insurance is a measure of accessibility. And even if you aren't accepting insurance, helping your clients out, walking them through what a super bill is, you know, spending a little bit of time in session, making sure that they know what that means and how to actually get it done. That, to me is incredibly helpful. So providing a bit of space in the in the session to talk through how you can do that, particularly if they have anxiety, or they've got some ADHD, you know, they might need a little extra hand holding to get those things done. There are depending on your licensing board, I've seen some people do sponsored therapy spot. So it's a little bit different than a pro bono. It's Think of it like a scholarship for therapy. So the way that I've seen this work is for clients who pay a full fee, you essentially tell them look by you paying a full fee, a portion of your fee goes towards sponsoring somebody who would not be able to afford therapy with me. So you're still getting income, but you're also having the clients who are able to pay your fee, kind of some buy in that they are also kind of helping out other people in the community. So those are some different ways to be accessible, that don't involve sliding your scale doesn't mean you have to do all or any of them. It's just different ways to think about it.
Curt Widhalm 13:04
On of the things that you talked about in your presentation at the therapy reimagined conference, this social enterprise.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 13:12
Yes.
Curt Widhalm 13:14
Can you tell us more about that, what it means for people who maybe didn't attend the conference and what the social enterprise model is and how this might fit in for therapists?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 13:24
Yeah, I think so many therapists struggle with this idea of charging for services because we've internalized so many things about what money is or what it isn't. And the social enterprise model essentially says, look, there are three things to provide something that you can feel good about doing. And also know that you are being compensated fairly for it. And it exists at the intersection of these three things. One, what do you do well, what values do you stand for? And what can you be paid? Well to do, and as therapists I think, if we can think about ourselves at the intersection of that, of existing, and I do this really well, these are in alignment with my values, this type of therapeutic intervention is in alignment with my values, and I can be paid well to do that. You know, that you are contributing to the greater good of the community by making sure that you're not just wringing out your clients for the most dollars you can get right? I think so many of us think that if I charge money, then I'm a greedy capitalist, but it's also about am I being compensated for the skills that I offer and the transformations that I'm able to help facilitate in a meaningful way?
Katie Vernoy 14:41
I know that there are a lot of different perspectives on how you decide how much money to wring out of your client. And, and and you mentioned the episode with Katie Read and we've had other conversations as well, just about the shoulds. And you know, how I should set my fees and those types of things. Yeah, and to me, it feels like there's so much nuance. It's it's a wide open space, there's a lot of shit. So people feel like it's not wide open, but I feel like it really is. What advice do you have on on setting those fees? Because when we're in that space where I can be paid well for it, it's aligned with my values, and I can do it well, like, it can be hard to figure out like, and what does being paid? Well mean, that I can feel good about?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 15:30
Yeah. And I think that's such a good question. Because this idea of what does it mean to be paid? Well, is so skewed in our field, my first job, I was making $32,000, you know, with a master's degree, and I don't think that's an unfamiliar number or salary for people to hear. And so when a lot of people go into private practice, they hold themselves to that standard, oh, well, I was making 40k or 50k. I think that's a reasonable salary. I think that's what I'll try to make. So we haven't thought beyond what do we actually need to survive and thrive. And that's where doing things in alignment with your values can be really beneficial. So when it comes to fi setting, you're not just thinking about what are you charging your clients? You're also thinking about? Does that fee sustain me and allow me to practice financial self care? Which means Can I take care of my financial needs? Yes, but do Am I also able to support my mental, my emotional and my spiritual self. With that? I know, I was, I was loving your episode on burnout. And I love the modeling that the two of you did by saying, Look, we're going to hit pause on the therapy reimagine conference, we also have to build in time off and time for restoration, there is a study that says we need, I think, oh, shoot, I'm going to botch it. Now. I think it's eight or 10 consecutive days off in a row to actually unplug from work. So making sure that you have that built in to your time off. So making sure it covers your time off making sure it covers your health insurance. Unfortunately, we live in a society where your healthcare is tied with your employment. So when you're self employed, you have to make sure that you can cover your health insurance, you have to also make sure that you're thinking about your future self in traditional employment, we often have access to retirement plans or programs. And when we move into entrepreneurship, we are our own 401k or four, three B plan. So we have to make sure that all of those things are taken into account. And we don't want to be overworking ourselves. When we show up exhausted and burnt out and watching the clock, we are not being good clinicians we just aren't. And just taking stock of our own energy, my full pre pandemic was 18, I could comfortably see 18 clients a week that felt like a good fit for me, I wasn't burnt out, I wasn't presenting my clients, I had downtime to get the things done, I needed to do and I charged accordingly. Now, my max is 12. I have found that doing zoom therapy. While there are so many advantages of it, like I genuinely really like it, I find that literally the physicality of sitting still and staring at my screen and just what really watching so much harder for nuances through the screen takes so much more energy out of me and I can no longer comfortably and competently feel like I'm a good practitioner when I'm seeing 18 clients when I've had to scale that back to 12. And then what do I have to do to make up for that income? So that was a long answer of saying it depends. You have to figure out what money you need to be bringing in and you need to make sure that you're not just thinking about comparing it to what you use to earn an agency job because you were likely being underpaid there.
Katie Vernoy 18:47
It's hard not to feel like a greedy capitalist. With that it means you have to charge a premium fee mostly
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 18:56
Yeah, yeah.
Curt Widhalm 18:59
Give me advice for people making that jump to those premium price because I'm sure that there's a lot of our listeners who might be considering leaving an agency job and being like, you know, I know you know my session value in this agency and this aligns maybe with my values but in going out and charging somebody three four or five times that fee in order to meet my money goals seems like it has a lot of opportunity to bring up some that imposter syndrome and really being able to balance that for those individuals you have any guidance on what to really look at hopefully beyond just kind of know your worth.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 19:43
Yeah. Oh my god. Thank you for saying that because also the Know your worth thing. That's a trope I used to find myself repeating. And then a friend of mine who's a behavioral economist, she shared with me Jaquette Timmons and she's goes Lindsay You have to stop saying that because we as humans We don't have a worth. So instead, she invited me to reframe it as charged the value of what your services are worth to give yourself a little bit of psychic distance there between like, I'm worth $300. Now it's like no, the value of my services are worth $300 an hour. So anyway, tangent aside, how can you come into charging fees for your services, I think there is a pendulum swing that I see happen when people try to get out of the mentality of sliding their scale as low as possible to charging premium fees. And so they go from being in spaces where being a good therapist means charging very little into spaces that are like, You need to be a six, seven figure business owner, and you need to be charging premium fees, which can be as we know, a big jump cognitively. And so I always invite people to come back to your values, your lifestyle needs, your unique financial goals. And I'm not about bashing the people who are saying, Oh, you need to make six figures or seven figures. My practice does generate six figures. But I don't think that is a magical goalposts where all your problems are suddenly solved. I think this chase this money charge, the premium fees, you have to work more can backfire. In that it forces us to work more meaning when you have that mentality of I have to work harder, I have to chase this x figure goal or this premium fee number. What happens often is you get into this space where I'll just use myself for an example that that 12 clients Oh, I saw 12 clients a week, I made enough money to hit my goals. I started to cultivate work life balance. But now what if I saw twice as many people, I could make twice as much money? What could I do it twice as much money. And then all of a sudden you forget about why you did it in the first place. So coming back to how much do I need? How much do I desire and is the money that I'm charging, allowing me to do things in alignment with my values, let's say family is like the most important value to me. And I want my 10 consecutive days off in a row with my family. And I want to go somewhere where I don't have to worry about you know, finding activities for us to do or cooking a bunch of food, I want to make sure that I have enough money to pay for that Airbnb to pay for takeout and that Airbnb is conveniently located to a lot of like outdoor activities. That's a goal that I can kind of reverse engineer my way. And to me, it's also modeling for your clients, you don't necessarily have to say to your client, like, Oh, my financial goal was this, this and this, and I was able to achieve it. But you're also modeling for your clients the importance of taking time off of adhering to your boundaries and practicing self care. So again, that's a tangent of an answer. But I guess the long and short of it is as you move towards charging premium fees come back to like, what your WHY IS, and when you feel that anxiety to work more and charge more and go harder, you actually may already have enough.
Katie Vernoy 23:02
I like that I think the piece that resonates for me is this, the letting go of I must get to this number, I must make more money. And I think for me, there's also this big push of like we must leverage we must, we must continue to grow and expand. And I think there's a point at which we have enough I mean, there, there may still be challenges that we need to do. But there's this, this freedom and not having to constantly grow and, and make my business bigger and make my business more successful. Like there's each person has to decide where they land or where they land for a time and you know, different seasons of what I need and what I want and what's most important to me, but it feels like it and this is kind of circling back to the the social enterprise model and kind of this idea of capitalism versus money exchange and, you know, clarifying all of that, but but it seems like when it's completely tied to values, what you're positing is that feels better than just making money for money's sake. And so, so tell us a little bit more about this. Because to me, I feel like I'm just starting to grasp the idea I was I was too caught up in the greedy capitalism, to understand kind of what what we were what we were starting to talk about with a social enterprise model.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 24:24
Yeah. So to bounce off of this idea of what is the difference between capitalism and money exchange? I think it's important to note that capitalism is a is a political economic system that we we know the dangers of right it is propped up by the unpaid and underpaid labor. So the person or people who are in charge, get the greatest amount of profit available. And as such, as we kind of touched on earlier, it's a system where we give all the praise to the people who Make a lot of money because they must have worked hard and simultaneously shamed the people who didn't make a lot of money because they must have not been hard workers. And we've we bought into that idea as a society so much so that you know, at the time that we're recording this, if you're on Twitter right now, you can see people rallying around Elon Musk saying like, yeah, he shouldn't have to pay taxes, he worked really hard. So we've got all these people saying, like, yeah, we save the billionaires instead of let's make sure we have a safety net that people can't fall through for the greater good of our society. So that's capitalism. And there's a lot of problems with it. And even if you disagree with it, unfortunately, we live in that society. Yeah. And money exchange, on the other hand has been around since the dawn of time, whether it was literal dollars or coins, there has always been an exchange of things for other things, or things or other services. And when we think about small business owners, which is most private practice owners, if we can think about ourselves as kind of the community farmstand, it helps to shift that mentality. So for example, if I go down to the farmers market, and I purchased a half a dozen eggs, I'm helping to support sustainable agriculture in my community, I get to know the person who grew my crew, my eggs, I don't think we're growing eggs, but you don't I mean, maybe if you're vegan, actually, you're growing your eggs. So you're growing your eggs substitutes? Got it? So we want to think about as therapists, how can we kind of fit into that model, where what we do in charging for services, and helping people in our community is a win win. Because when we have a healthier person in our community, because we are helping them with their mental health, what is that ripple effect on the community? And how can that be beneficial?
Curt Widhalm 26:57
It sounds like, you know, this is what a lot of practitioners do by going out into the community and sharing even some of the things that you were talking about at the top of the episode of just going and talking about mental health and about their practices and doing some, I guess, pro bono work and in the way of psychoeducation, or community education that helps to make that Win Win happen.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 27:25
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so so powerful. I think when we are in our spaces where we're surrounded by other mental health, folks, we forget what the baseline is of mental health knowledge. Oh, yeah, forget, just like what a wealth of information we have, like the other day, I did a presentation for non mental health care providers about what financial anxiety is, and tips to cope with it right. And for anybody in the therapy field, they'd be like, that's like, entry level CBT, maybe if you're lucky. But for this group of people, it wasn't that they don't, it's just we forget how much knowledge we have, and how valuable explaining some basics of how our minds and bodies and thoughts are connected, can be a huge value for other people in our community. So just don't take what your knowledge is for granted. Get out of your academic kind of echo chambers and go talk to people who aren't in the mental health care field. And that is really where you can offer a lot of wisdom and value in your community.
Curt Widhalm 28:33
So once again, echoing stop hanging out with therapists.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 28:41
That might be a theme. Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 28:44
Maybe it's stopped just hanging out with therapists
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 28:47
That's a good reframe Katie
Katie Vernoy 28:49
I know, I just it's really hard. I know, for me, and we've all spoken for therapists, we've all kind of done that thing. And I'm sure, just from the way you described it, Lindsay, you've got the thing. Like, that was a really nice reminder. And like, it is so dismissive. When a therapist comes up and says that to you, you're like, Yeah, but why did you need that reminder? You know, so I think it's that piece of when you start talking to folks who are not therapists, you recognize this is really important information. And it's not going to be discarded as Oh, I already knew that because it is this new piece that's coming in, that then allows, and this is, I guess, going to do accessibility thing. It allows this information to be disseminated more widely widely. It's something where they then are able to implement it, and maybe some people wouldn't need therapy if this information are readily available and was there first and so I think I'm putting the pieces together, Lindsay, I'm starting to see but it's it's really sharing the knowledge. It's making sure that you're available and that you've set up a fee system that makes sense for the folks that you're Working with but it's, it's this additional piece of you know, maybe you get creative and you do sponsorships or I mean there's people that have whole mechanisms for nonprofits to donate for, for scholarships for therapy. So I, there's, there's so much creativity that doesn't require an individual to slide their scale to an unsustainable fee. But this notion of just be accessible for all with all of these other pieces, I think is is hard to do. If you're not making enough money to survive, and you're seeing 40 clients a week,
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 30:33
Ding ding ding that is exactly it. We cannot care for other people in our community when we don't take care of ourselves. And it's, you know, we hammer on this message as therapists but we forget that in order to practice self care, we need to be able to fucking afford it. Like we just do.
Katie Vernoy 30:48
Yeah, exactly.
Curt Widhalm 30:52
And it's not just kind of the big luxurious, affording things like yeah, you know, that eight to 10 days, go and do a vacation if that's your jam, but it's also being able to afford the consistent little things of and you know, it's going home at a decent time of night. It's being you know, not spending your your off hours catching up on notes, or it's having all of the other systems and everything else that we've talked about on this podcast of being able to have the convenience of being able to afford shutting off at each and every day.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 31:30
Yeah, absolutely in in those are the things that we know, make. The biggest difference is that consistency and that predictability, that predictability that you can power down the predictability that you can pay your bills that helps to give us that mental space to rest and to be safe.
Katie Vernoy 31:51
Where can people find you?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin 31:53
My website is called Mind money balance. It's the same name as my practice. My podcast is of the same name. My Instagram handle is of the same name so people can find me on any of those places.
Curt Widhalm 32:08
And we'll include links to Lindsay's stuff in our show notes. You can find those over at MCSG podcast calm and also follow us on our social media and join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy And Lindsey Bryan-Podvin.
Katie Vernoy 32:26
Thanks again to our sponsor, trauma therapist network.
Curt Widhalm 32:30
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you can know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There's so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan LCSW WC created trauma therapist network. Trauma therapist network therapist profiles include the types of traumas specialized in population served therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them. Network is more than a directory though it's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consults, and network with colleagues around the country.
Katie Vernoy 33:07
Join the growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code MTSG 20 at traumatherapistnetwork.com Once again that's capital MTS G the number 20 at Trauma therapist network.com
Announcer 33:23
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Peer Support Specialists An interview with Kemisha Fields, MSW, Amparo Ostojic, MPA, and Jeff Kashou, LMFT on what peer support specialists are and the value they bring to treatment teams, as well as the challenges and best practices in implementing these roles into clinical programs. Curt and Katie talk with Kemisha and Amparo about their experiences in these positions, exploring how their lived experiences created the successful integration of a more holistic approach to support clients. We also talked with Jeff about his journey in implementing one of these programs from scratch.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kemisha Fields, MSW, Amparo Ostojic, MPA, and Jeff Kashou, LMFT Kemisha Fields, MSW: Kemisha Fields was born and raised in South Los Angeles, CA. As a former foster youth, she has taken a professional interest in the commitment to serving the needs of children and families as a Children’s Social Worker working in Dependency Investigations. She has studied many modalities to bring healing to those in need. Kemisha is a life, long learner inspired by the abundance of opportunities available to enrich the lives of the people she serves. She earned her Bachelor of Science Degree in Psychology from the University of Phoenix. She received her Master of Social Work degree from the University of Southern California. Currently, Kemisha is a Doctoral Student of Business Administration with an emphasis in organizational leadership.
She has extensive experience working with children, families, and individuals as an agent of support and guidance. Kemisha has a strong background in case management for an array of populations inclusive to at-risk youth, individuals with intellectual disabilities, commercially sexual exploited children, victims of trauma, and families within the dependency system. As a lead Dependency Investigator with Los Angeles County Child and Family Services, she has direct practice with assessing for child abuse and neglect in hostile environments. Kemisha works directly with County Counsel to investigate and sustain infractions of the Child Welfare and Institutions Codes.
Jeff Kashou, LMFT: Jeff Kashou, LMFT is a manager of clinical product and service design for a mental health tech company that provides telemedicine to those with serious mental illness. Previously, he ran a county mental health program where he helped develop the role fo peers for adolescent programs county-wide and collaborated with peers to create management practices to support their professional development. In this position, Jeff developed a practice guideline for the utilization of peers in behavioral health settings for the County of Orange. Jeff has also served on the Board of Directors for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, where he helped lead the association to support the field of Marriage and Family Therapy and those with mental health issues. He consults as experts in mental health for television productions, to ensure the accurate and helpful portrayal of mental illness and treatment in the media. Most recently, Jeff and his wife Sheila wrote a children's book, The Proudest Color, that helps children of color cope with racism that will be on shelves this Fall.
Amparo Ostojic, MPA: Amparo Ostojic is a mental health advocate with personal lived experience. After working for the federal government for ten years, she decided to pursue her passion in working as an advocate to help promote recovery in mental health. She has worked as a peer specialist for a mental health clinic as well as volunteered leading peer support groups. Amparo has a close connection with the Latino Community and feels it is her duty to do everything possible to prevent and reduce the suffering of individuals living with a mental health condition. Amparo created a Spanish speaking support group in East Los Angeles to offer free peer support to members of her community. Amparo has a bachelor’s in business administration and a Master of Public administration. Amparo is a certified personal medicine coach and is working on becoming a National Certified Peer Specialist (NCPS).
In this episode we talk about: * What a peer support specialist is, how they work * What peers can uniquely bring * The hiring process, qualifications, and what that means for individuals seeking these jobs * The difference in perspective that peer and parent partners can bring to treatment teams * The importance of lived experience * Comparing holistic versus medical model treatment * The medical model and the recovery model complement each other * The importance of advocacy for individuals (with the support of the peer support specialist) * How peer support specialists are best integrated into treatment teams and programs * The potential problems when the peer support specialist role is not understood * How someone can become a Peer Support Specialist * Certification and standardization of the peer support specialist role * SB803 – CA certification for Peer Support Specialists Legislation * Ideal training for these professionals * How best to collaborate with a peer support specialist * What it is like to implement one of these programs * The challenges of hiring a peer support specialist * Exploring whether there are systems in place to support peer support specialists with their unique needs * The recommendation for a tool kit and a consultant to support programs in implementing best practices * The Recovery Model and peer support specialists in practice * Multidisciplinary teams may have pre-existing bias and prejudice against folks with lived experience, the role of stigma in the interactions * The shift that happens when peers become part of the team (specifically related to gallows humor and the separation of “patients” and “providers”) * Demonstrating the value of this role and the use of the recovery model * Prevention and Early Intervention * How to be successful with peer support programs and the benefits at many different levels
Our Generous Sponsor: Trauma Therapist Network Trauma is highly prevalent in mental health client populations and people are looking for therapists with specialized training and experience in trauma, but they often don't know where to start.
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There are so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan, LCSW-C created Trauma Therapist Network.
Trauma Therapist Network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work and what they specialize in, so potential clients can find them.
Trauma Therapist Network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in, populations served and therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them.
The Network is more than a directory, though. It's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consult and network with colleagues around the country. Join our growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code: MTSG20 at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
RAND Report: How to Transform the US Mental Health System
Los Angeles Times Op-Ed: Our mental health laws are failing
Wise U Training for Peers
Advocacy through Cal Voices ACCESS Program
SB-803
National Certified Peer Specialist NCPS
Excellent guides and toolkits on how to integrate peers in clinics:
Association of Home Social Rehabilitation Agencies
Meaningful Roles for Peer Providers in Integrated Healthcare Toolkit
Philadelphia Peer Support Tool Kit
Relevant Episodes:
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Serious Mental Illness and Homelessness
Psychiatric Crises in the Emergency Room
Advocacy in the Wake of Looming Mental Healthcare Work Force Shortages
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by Trauma Therapist Network.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Trauma therapist network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work, and what they specialize in so potential clients can find them. Visit traumatherapistnetwork.com To learn more,
Curt Widhalm 00:27
listen at the end of the episode for more about the trauma therapist network.
Announcer 00:31
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:47
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is part four of our special series of fixing mental health care in America. And today, we are shining a spotlight on peer support specialists and the role that they have in our behavioral health care system. And a lot of the advantages that these kinds of roles bring in, as well as some of the difficulties of getting peer support implemented despite a lot of very positive evidence in their role in treating mental and emotional disorders that happen in our world.
Katie Vernoy 01:27
I'm really excited about this particular episode, we've got two sections. The first one is we're joined by two folks who've worked in the peer support specialist role who are both still in social work and in advocacy. First off, we've got Kemisha Fields, who's a Master of Social Work who is was actually somebody I worked with, and she did a great job in one of the programs I was running. And then also person I was introduced to by one of our amazing friends of the show on Amparo Ostojic, who is an MPA and also someone who works in advocacy specifically about peer support specialists. So I'm really, really looking forward for all of you to listen to that and learn about what that role is. And we recognized also and I, I had a little bit of this, but Jeff Kashou LMFT is someone who has in the past actually implemented one of these programs, and he was able to talk with us about what it was like as a director, putting those things together. So take a listen.
Kemisha Fields 02:30
So my name is Kemisha Fields. I enter social services call for like 17 years ago, I took a entry level position at a homeless shelter. So that was my entry into social services. And from there, I've just kind of progress and work my way up. And I've worked with different populations. So I've worked with the homeless population. I've worked with individuals who are struggling with substance abuse. I worked in recidivism. I've worked in community mental health, and now I'm working in the child welfare system.
Amparo Ostojic 03:10
So my name is Amparo Ostojic. And I've been in mental health advocacy and peer support. For the last four years, I have worked to increase awareness about mental health, especially in the Latino community. And I worked as a peer support specialist for a mental health clinic for about seven months, I currently still do advocacy in the mental health space. And I work with individuals that want to know more about how to live, a quote unquote, normal life, even with my severe mental health condition.
Curt Widhalm 03:50
A lot of mental health clinicians, they may have heard of a peer specialist. I have found that a lot of my travels and talks in therapist communities that many people don't know what a peer specialist does, can you help us understand what a peer specialist does what their role is in the bigger part of the treatment systems.
Amparo Ostojic 04:13
So a peer specialist is basically a role model of positive recovery behaviors. So it's meant to give hope to someone living with a mental health condition and help them not feel as alone in this recovery process. So, in essence, a pure specialist will share their personal lived experience of mental health and oftentimes offer examples of what it's like to deal with a condition. And you know, what they've done to get better, such as tips or a really useful tool is, for example, the living successfully plan or the wrap plans, where you go over with a client what it is like to be in a healthy space, what it's like to see warning signs, and when it's time to call your psychiatrist or go to the hospital. So kind of teach them about themselves and guide them in their self determination of managing their their health condition.
Katie Vernoy 05:17
So you're really talking about from a place of your own experience and knowledge helping someone to plan for themselves,
Amparo Ostojic 05:26
right. And a lot of it is teaching them to self advocate for themselves, and put themselves in the driver's seat of their health condition. So for example, a lot of times, it's kind of directed from the top as if the psychiatrist or therapist is telling them what to do, or kind of teaching them what they should do. Whereas if your specialist is on the same level, and there's no sort of hierarchy of who knows more, there's a relationship of learning from each other, and really sharing what it's like to live through this. I was given the example where it's like, Is it someone that you want to work with, like someone that's like a biologist that knows about like the forest or something or someone that lives in the forest, because that personal lived experience is really key to understanding things that someone else that hasn't experienced them wouldn't really know, or perhaps hasn't dealt with.
Curt Widhalm 06:26
When you started in this, you started as a parent partner, how was that process of getting hired?
Kemisha Fields 06:34
So the qualification for a peer partner or parent partner would be a life experience in one of the systems of DCFS, Department of Children and Family Services, probation, and I believe education, like do individual education plan. And so my entry into being a parent partner was through my son's IEP, Individual Education Plan. And, you know, it just kind of happened by chance, a friend of mine recommended me for the position and I follow through with it, the interview process, or the application process, they I was asked what my qualification to being a parent partner, so I did have to disclose some important information regarding my own experiences with my son. And we just, I remember asking, like, anybody could have kind of said, like, oh, yeah, I have this child that has a special needs, like, how did they confirm that information? So I was looking for them to kind of want some sort of documentation from me, and they didn't. And so, at the time, the executive director says, usually confirmed based on the series of questions they asked me during the interview about different programs that may have been introduced to, to my son, which I found quite interesting, like, Okay,
Katie Vernoy 08:07
how was it for you to disclose personal things to get a job, because that seems like that would be a pretty vulnerable way to enter into a position.
Kemisha Fields 08:19
Very much so and because it's the opposite of what we've always been told, typically, in interviewing process, you don't share too much personal information, just your professional history. So it was a little different. But I always been transparent with my struggles with my son. So it was it was just a little different in I didn't know this person, but it was okay. I you know, I feel comfortable through the process. And I didn't, it was okay for me to, you know, share my experiences. Being a parent of a special needs child.
Curt Widhalm 09:01
I have to imagine, and this is prior to being hired in this position. Did you have somebody serving in that kind of a role for you, somebody that you relied on while you were going through your child's IEP process and all of the struggles that that usually entails?
Kemisha Fields 09:19
That is... I love that question. I absolutely love that question and Yes, but very informal. So I did not have a formal being like, Whoa, this is your parent partner, and she or he's going to help you through this process. What I have was professionals who kind of just stepped up I had one of the very first school psychologists who helped me through the process of my son's assessment, what to look for what questions that I should ask and she helped me not on a professional level but a personal level. She kind of walked me through that process. So I was grateful for that. So I've had a lot of support with my son, just from individuals who cared enough to show me what this looks like and what questions I should be asking. So I appreciate that.
Curt Widhalm 10:20
I have to imagine that working with the mental health systems, the people in those roles, there has to be some difficulties in getting integrated into the more professional sides of the organizations, what kinds of challenges to peer specialists end up having, trying to help clients be able to advocate for themselves and fit into this professional system as well.
Amparo Ostojic 10:45
The professionals, such a psychiatrist, therapist, they usually operate from the medical model, which is very top down, like I mentioned, and it kind of has this perspective that I no more in teaching the patient how to, you know, work with medications, or live with this condition, where as peer specialists work from the recovery model, that look at everything, the main four points are home, community health, and purpose, that's really important, like your reason to get up in the morning, right? That sometimes the recovery model is not taking us seriously, it's a more kind of holistic approach, looking at the person. And in the medical model, you're looking at the condition like it's a problem to be solved. And I'm looking at the person as the whole and how their whole life could be better. So my focus may be different than a psychiatrist, their focus may be to reduce the symptoms, and let's say get rid of hearing voices, things like that, or as my role is really to make that person as a whole better. So for example, I usually medications is a big thing must take medications, or as my role may not necessarily say that I typically never tell the client, you know, don't take medications, but I really allow the client to the side that and some other parts of the medical team may not like that. But also, my role may not be taken as seriously because, for example, in my experience working with a mental health clinic, they worked with people that were homeless, and I would say extreme cases. So as someone with bipolar disorder, they kind of put me in this category that, you know, I probably couldn't offer as much. And my perspective wasn't as valuable. So it was really hard. Working with therapists or psychiatrist that saw me as someone that was in the space of like, part of the problem. I don't know how to describe it. But it was really hard, because at the beginning, I definitely felt like I wasn't taking seriously. And it took a while to gain trust, and get there super for me clients. And those were one of the challenges,
Curt Widhalm 13:01
I have to imagine some of the providers are like, you're just completely undermining all of the treatment by using trust, none of this professional experience that we've learned. How did those conversations go? Because it seems like so much of a treatment plan would be developed from, you know, the scientific and medical model sorts of approaches. And then for somebody to come in with lived experience to be able to be like, maybe the medication thing is something that you want to talk to your doctor about.
Amparo Ostojic 13:33
Well, I take medication, and there was five years that I didn't from when I was 20 to 26. And I was fine. I think, you know, I used to run marathons, I was super fit. And there was a time that I didn't think I needed medication. But then having more episodes, I realized that it does benefit me. So I never really tell a client, don't take medication. But I'm not as I guess pushy into that they may need I needed something to happen for me to sort of learn my lesson and realize, you know, it's it's easier, my life is a little easier with medication. And that may not be the case for everybody. So I definitely don't think they see it as me undermining them. But the recovery model and the medical model are supposed to complement each other. And I think that's the hesitation at the beginning. There's no better treatment or a they say they're supposed to complement each other and offer a level of understanding and acceptance and validation that sometimes the professionals can't offer because they haven't lived through that. So for the most part, I'm never, you know, moving them away from medication or therapy and validating their experience but perhaps they may tell me, you know, I didn't like my psychiatrist. And this is what happened. And I will be honest and say I've had psychiatrist that didn't work with me and didn't work for me. And I had to find a different one. Or I had to advocate for myself and say, you know, this side effect is, is not working for me, you know, maybe this is working, like, the symptoms are, you know, improving. But, you know, it's, it's making me sleepy, and then I can't get to work on time, things that are important that sometimes I think clients are afraid to say, because, you know, like, the main symptom that they're after is maybe under control. But other aspects of your life have completely lost balance now.
Katie Vernoy 15:42
Yeah, I think for me, and I was that person at one point. So
Kemisha Fields 15:46
You were!
Katie Vernoy 15:48
But I think the thing that felt very powerful when I entered into that program, and saw how it was set up was that the team had set up this structure to make sure that each member at the table was heard that each person was allowed to share ideas. I had been in other programs where folks were subjected to that hierarchy, where the therapist or the psychiatrist got the most air time, they're the ones that were making the decisions. And to me, I think, whether it was making sure that the parent partners were supervised by the director, and or really having a culture of, we are all here supporting the family. And we all equally bring important things to the table, I think it was really effective. I think we just get worried because I did see even with programs that were and maybe it was because it was intense now that I'm thinking about it, because like less intense programs, sometimes folks were using either parent partners or bachelor level providers to do like, copying and filing. And it's like, no, no, these are mental health providers, these are people who are at the table. And so to me, I think when when people are able to integrate into the team, it can be really good.
Kemisha Fields 17:05
My personality type wouldn't have allow for that, if I'm honest. Like no. And I think when you come in and you kind of demand a level of respect, you get that level of respect. So I've never had a problem, I think, in my whole career of value, my experience as a parent partner, it laid the foundation for so much of the work that I do now. So I'm still connected to a lot of those colleagues, who at the time were clinicians and I, at that time, I wasn't even I had not completed my undergrad studies yet. And we're like the best of friends. So my experience as a parent partner is one that is really great. And had you know, a lot of good things have come out of that for me,
Curt Widhalm 17:59
I want to change the conversation here a little bit to talking about how people can become peer specialists and what the certification process is like. And I understand that that's quite different in many different parts of the country.
Amparo Ostojic 18:15
Yeah, and even within California, each county has different guidelines. So first of all, California just passed SB 803, which is going to allow pure support specialists to have a certification, which will hopefully increase the use of peer specialists in mental health clinics. So 48 states now have peer certification, including California. And the, the principles are pretty much the same. But how a peer support is used in different parts of a state or country is going to vary. So it's difficult if someone moves to another state or another county, and they try to use the same principles. It may not work as effectively. And it's basically it's not standardized right now. So it's hard for someone working in that field to have many options of going to different places, and even like a client that's moving from another county and experiencing pure services in a different way.
Katie Vernoy 19:26
So if someone were to want to jump into this, where it sounds like it's starting to become more regulated, there's certification in 48 states, that's great. What does it look like? How does someone become a peer support specialist?
Amparo Ostojic 19:39
There's a few organizations that are considered certified to train for peer support. And, for example, the training that I took was an 11 day course, where, you know, like 40 hours a week, and you learn the principles of peer support. And then To become a certified peer specialist, you need 3000 hours of supervised work or volunteer experience providing direct peer support. And you need a letter of recommendation from a professional and from supervisor that has overseen your peer support. And then there's an exam that you would take and pass. And that's how you would become national certified peer specialist. And on top of that, like I said, California is still in the process of creating their peer support guidelines. So in addition to that, you know, whatever guidelines that they'll come up with will be the California guidelines for certification in California,
Curt Widhalm 20:45
a lot of research gives you more credit than being a middleman, that when we look at outcomes for treatments, when we look at treatment, we see that peer counselors, we see that parent partners are more effective towards client outcomes than even just working directly with licensed professionals. And a lot of it is due to a lot of the problems that therapists just kind of face and being approachable themselves for the mental health system themselves that there is a down to earth Ness that having that lived experience really does embody that, yes, you can get through this. And I've got some experience to be able to say that not only do I actually demonstrate that I know what you're going through, but that you can get through it, there's a way through this, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. How do you think that peer partners, peer counselors can be trained should be trained to best exemplify that part of treatment,
Kemisha Fields 21:51
I would say they should be trained the same way that any other team members trained in I know, from a clinical perspective, there's a different type of training that comes into play. But for our child and family team specialists that you know, we have trainings, usually agencies are sending you out to different trainings, and I I believe that parent partners should be a part of those trainings, if they are not already a part of those trainings. And that should and will help them in their role as a parent partner with the life experience on top of that,
Katie Vernoy 22:32
how can therapists psychiatrists, other people in mental health clinics, support peer specialists?
Amparo Ostojic 22:38
one of the most important parts is understanding and learning to see how we can be used. I think, once you collaborate with a peer specialist, and notice the different perspective that they offer, I think both psychiatrists and peers, and mental health professionals, other mental health professionals can learn from each other. And I really appreciated that with one of the psychiatrist that he like, I could see that he really learned from me, and that gave me a lot of confidence. And I learned a lot from him. And it didn't feel like a top down relationship. And it really felt like he valued my perspective as a professional. And that helped a lot because basically just have faith in in something even if you don't understand how it works. You want to try and see how you can work with this person and encourage them to do actual peer support. If at first you don't know what to do as far as how to work with them. There's really good guides. There's one that I really recommend, that is put out by Castro. And they are basically recovery organization. And they have it's called the meaningful roles for providers in an integrative healthcare. And they really break down the different positions that peer specialists could do the different roles so like a peer navigator peer advocate, wellbeing coach is sometimes what they call it. And it really spells out things that a peer specialists can do. And it helps both the pure and the professional because they will say, you know, they could serve as a bridge between the community based organization, they could help clients in enrolling with health insurance programs, they it really spells out things that a client can do with a pure specialist, and that helps both the pier and the clinic.
Katie Vernoy 24:53
How about letting us know a little bit about if someone's interested in this I think from many different angles I wanting to advocate for better utilization of peer support specialists within mental health programs advocating for swift implementation of SB 803. For California, you know, or even this advocacy for individuals who are navigating mental health concerns themselves or with their family members, and how they can advocate like, it seems like there's a lot of lot of potential calls to action for our listeners here. What resources would you recommend that they look into, and we'll put all of those in our show notes.
Amparo Ostojic 25:33
So definitely the I would guess, I guess, I would say, one of my favorite organizations that I worked with for the past two and a half years is Cal voices. And they have different programs, the advocacy space, is access. So access stands for advancing client and community empowerment through sustainable solutions. So they're kind of a systems change perspective. And they have really great e learning toolkits that give you tools on how you would advocate for yourself and for systems change within your community. One of the great resources that Cal voices has is their Ys program, which stands for workforce integration, support and education. And they have what they call the YZ University. And it's created by peers, it's taught by peers. And this is where I got my training for becoming a peer support specialist. And they basically provide a lot of support in what a peer does. And like they have wise Wednesdays, where they provide information about something related to peer support and learning about how to, you know, either be a peer specialist or work with a peer specialist. And that's everyone's they. And so, it's a great program, because like I said, it's peers that are teaching and creating the curriculum. And I think that's just wonderful because receiving that information for someone with the lived experience is very powerful.
Curt Widhalm 27:21
Switching gears here and talking about the implementation of peer support specialists, here's our interview with Jeff Kashou. We are joined by Jeff Kashou, a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. He's a former Service chief who oversaw collaborative behavioral health program in Orange County, and had opportunities to oversee the implementations of peer counselors into some of the programs.
Jeff Kashou 27:51
Yeah, well, first off, thank you for having me on. And I'm very much appreciated that you guys have this podcast and give the opportunity for topics like this to be covered.
Katie Vernoy 27:59
The thing that I find very interesting about these roles that I know you and I both have hired these roles, but people have to claim lived experience in order to get these roles. And so it's it's a very interesting line to walk. There's there's very interesting things there. But what do you see as the difficulties that are associated with hiring peer counselors?
Jeff Kashou 28:20
Yeah, so I think, very specifically, what makes the role unique and special also makes it kind of a unique challenge in the interviewing process? How do you ask about one's lived experience as a direct, you know, in theory qualification to have that job is what makes it a unique role to a to an organization or an agency. So I would, you know, really encourage anybody who is looking to start a peer program to bring on a consultant who can really help you think the process all the way through and how to have those conversations without inadvertently walking into equal opportunity ramifications or accidently discriminating against someone while also being very mindful that you're bringing into the room into the interview room and process someone's vulnerabilities. And so being able to manage that very tactfully and professionally, while also ensuring that this person, you know, feels comfortable to share that as well. That's your first introduction to somebody and they're interviewing you in that, that process and they want to ensure that your program has really thought through how they're going to be not just added to their system of care, but how your entire system of care embraces and is made better by having peers on board. Oftentimes peers are looked at as very client facing but really in the best situations for them are those for the entire service model is made better by their presence.
Curt Widhalm 29:48
A lot of the talk that we've had on this show about how programs barely take care of their mental health professionals within the work systems. Is there any management that is actually being put towards looking after peer counselors in this way without infantilizing them. I mean, if we're not doing this with the brunt of the behavioral health health workforce, are there other implementation problems when it comes to ensuring this kind of stuff or incorporating them into treatment teams,
Jeff Kashou 30:19
when I created a practice guidelines of like best practices for the entire Orange County systems, and not just County, but the entire behavioral health system for how to conduct supervision with peers, I leaned very heavily on a toolkit that I found from the city of Philadelphia, that there Department of Behavioral Health and intellectual disability services put together on how to create a peer support system, from the first moment you decide you want to all the way through to supervising them to managing disciplinary things to supporting their growth. And looking at it even from you know, how is the entire system set up to support them, even the interactions that they have within the multidisciplinary team, you know, they face an additional layer of potentially of scrutiny or challenges by constantly having to explain who they are, why they have any authority to work with patients or clients. So there's, there's added stress to the question or the systems in place to actually take care of them. You know, I would really look at that toolkit that the city of Philadelphia put together as sort of a way to evaluate if your system is there, I'd say, it's certainly lacking just to be completely blunt, the county that I worked for, from the children's behavioral health side was not equipped at the time to take them on effectively. And it required a lot of having to build the plane while you fly it, which I think for some roles, it's okay. I think for peers, it can add additional stress. And it means, you know, workplace ambiguity is stressful enough. But when it comes to all the other challenges of integrating them and supporting them and explaining their role, and giving them the right training, and so on, and so on. There's just another level that needs to be thought all the way through.
Curt Widhalm 32:11
How are pure counselors implemented into treatment teams, and how are their voices in actual practice, kind of placed into the role where there's a bunch of other potential licensed professionals across a wide variety of interdisciplinary systems?
Jeff Kashou 32:30
Yeah, so I can speak to my experience, and then also kind of broadly to and the research that I've done on the topic. So it's often implemented as a top down approach, it's, you know, people in leadership, saying, we're gonna add this program to our larger organization, without ever really embracing maybe the full scope of what it means to engage in a recovery service model, which is really antithetical to the principles of the peer program, you know, which is meeting people where they're at. So a system of care, really understanding from the bottom up what's happening on the ground level, that's really where the entire program began with. But the ways that they're being implemented, we have that additive approach that systems of care will take. And from a very top down perspective, oftentimes, systems need a way to recoup revenue by bringing on this workforce and, you know, supporting the work that they do. And so when it comes to Medicaid, for example, it's involving them in the billing system. So it requires choosing a diagnosis for the person from the list that the other providers have diagnosed the individual with, which is sometimes very new and a bit challenging. I think, sometimes for peers who don't want to necessarily see someone as a diagnosis. But you know, our current system of billing practices and documentation practices requires that also, multidisciplinary teams really don't know about peers, and can have a lot of prejudice as they go in. So systems need to really be thoughtful and do a self assessment before they decide to bring on this very important role, you know, on are this system set up? Or what are the prejudices or preconceived notions that other providers on the team have of people that come in with lived experience? Right, you know, oftentimes, we have that sort of gallows humor as providers when we talk about our patients or whatever. But, you know, now you have to be very mindful of that, not just because you don't want to upset somebody, but due to having that internal shift of like, you know, I actually really maybe need to check myself when it comes to that, and why I engaged in something like that in the first place. So really thinking about decreasing the stigma and helping the rest of the team even before peers come on, understand what it is that they do, the value that they add, and how they're going to be just as important of a member of a treatment team. So really leading with the why through this process. They're often brought a board you know without much structure I Which, you know, leads to them being assigned a lot of admin tasks as well. One of the things that I learned a lot when working with pure forums was that peers are often assigned, you know, a lot of filing tasks or, you know, paperwork kind of tasks, because the program wasn't really trained or made to be aware of what appear is going to do. And so managers will get, you know, assigned X amount of peers and hire them on but not really know what to do or may not have the bandwidth to train them and think through that whole job requirement. Similarly, what I experienced was, sadly, even partway through the interview process, we found out that we were actually interviewing for peers, but the program was set up, they had to find a job title or job classification that they could fit these folks within, so that we can hire them in a timely manner. And so when we were hiring mental health workers were actually supposed to be hiring peers. And so we found out midway, that we were hiring peers, which meant as managers, then we had to shift and reevaluate what we were doing which we put a lot of emphasis and fervor and figuring out and making it a smooth process as much as we could. But it was by no means ideal. And the cohort that we hired, certainly struggled with a lot of the ambiguity and sometimes just having to sit around and wait while we figured things out for them.
Katie Vernoy 36:16
You've mentioned a couple of times the the money element of it, that oftentimes these are folks who are hired to do an important service that isn't always reimbursable. And it makes me think about the value. And this speaks to the prejudice as well. But it makes me think of the value that people hold for this role. You know, they're not generating revenue, typically, or not generating a lot of revenue. They're not seen as experts, although they're oftentimes more expert than the folks in the room that are doing the treatment planning. And so what are the ways that you have found whether it's best practices or what you were able to accomplish in your program, of integrating these folks more successfully into, you know, kind of explaining the role? Like, why is it so important? What is the value of this? Because I feel like, and maybe you've already said this, and maybe this isn't needed, but it does feel like there's a case for this role. There's an importance to this role. And I just feel like maybe we need to be more direct and saying it, I don't know.
Jeff Kashou 37:25
So yeah, so there's really two directions to think of when it comes to how do you demonstrate the value, there's two those who would be, you know, deciding to bring on this role, which would be those key stakeholders. And then you also have the provider teams as well. And then I guess, there might even be a third group, which are the patients or clientele that you would be serving. So when it comes to demonstrating the value, I think the message needs to be pretty clear all the way through, which is when you're working with, you know, with individuals with serious mental illness, or those with CO occurring disorders, some of these more serious conditions, we know we preach about prevention and early intervention. And this is the rule that really helps with that. And this is the rule that allows us to make that big shift towards a recovery model, and not just pay lip service to saying that, you know, we meet our patients where they're at, and, you know, we want to, you know, improve the quality of their lives and help them reach their full potential. Now, that's, you know, a bit more idealistic and trying to sell it maybe to those that population level into the stakeholder level, but to the provider team, it's also a matter of, you know, recognizing that they will complement the services that, say, a therapist or psychologist or psychiatrist provides as well. And so it's more of like a meshing of gears versus like, people running off into separate directions, you know, where we know that metod here, it's a very important thing. Medications is a very important aspect of treatment. And if individuals, you know, go to their psychiatrist and they prescribe them an antidepressant, we oftentimes know that adherence drops off very quickly, either because the person has some sort of side effects, or because they start to feel better, and they decide they don't want to take the medication anymore. What you know, for multitude of reasons, here, the peer can actually meet with that person, you know, right after they meet with a psychiatrist, or maybe even be in the room with them when they meet with a psychiatrist. And help them ask the questions that are there might be uncomfortable asking, or ensure that they're asking the questions they didn't think to ask, creating that plan afterwards with them for how they're going to fill the prescription, how they're going to, you know, lay out their medications for the week, how they're going to make sure they maintain their motivation to take it or communicate changes that they need with their medications. When it comes to treatment adherence, you know, we assign individuals journaling to do for example, but I don't know about you guys and how often we assign tasks to to patients to do in between sessions, it's extremely hit or miss. And then you end up spending your next session processing, why they didn't do it when you'd rather be processing what they did. And so it's not to say it's 100%. But a specialist can really help with complementing services in those ways. I think ideally, we know that there's attrition, oftentimes with this population. So here's how we keep people engaged in care. I think the other thing is we think about completing goals or completing treatment plans. But that's not really the case. Again, it's not like that broken leg where your leg gets mended, and you don't have to really do anything afterwards, you have to maintain those gains for the long term to allow you then to get to those next levels of functioning, or satisfaction or fulfillment, whatever they might be. And that's where the period specialists can help somebody in the sort of aftercare discharge planning or even long, long term support through their maintenance of their goals.
Katie Vernoy 40:56
I think another element for the treatment team, and this is something where, you know, we had the conversation with Kemisha about this, but they're also an expert on the lived experience. I mean, obviously, each person's experience is different. But there's so much that I think my treatment teams anyway, we're learning from our peers, because they just hadn't been in the situation themselves. And so I think there's, there's also incorporating in that way, like here is another member of the team who has really valuable and valid feedback that you need provider. Because I think it's I think it's hard, I think it's hard to understand this. And I think that we've hidden behind a hierarchy that clearly doesn't work, we need to have, we need to have a whole bunch of human beings working on this on a level playing field.
Jeff Kashou 41:47
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that point up, Katie, I remember, and you guys probably had to do this in your grad programs as well, where we were assigned the task of attending a 12 step meeting to understand what the recovery community is like. And we can see what these you know, non therapeutic support systems are like, and it's a way to get that experience. But we were only assigned that at one point in time, and there is so much value that appear can add in terms of to use your your point expertise in these areas, you know, the approach, I think a lot of us take in the recovery systems, you know, I will get asked oftentimes, you know, well, are you in recovery yourself? And I think as a therapist, you make your own call in terms of self disclosure. And I would say the while I can tell you yes or no, it's more important for you to tell me what your experience is like, rather than me telling you all about what your experience is like. But I think there's a way we can sort of fast track that by having peer specialists add that level of detail to us upfront so that we're not always taxing individuals to have to educate us each and every time if that's not something that supports their care in the short term.
Katie Vernoy 42:52
Exactly.
Curt Widhalm 42:54
There seems to be a lot of mixed evidence on the effectiveness of pure counselor type programs, with the United States in particular lagging behind a lot of other countries when it comes to the implementation of this, some of which is highlighted by some of the funding stuff that you're talking about within things like Medicaid, and we even see some of this going on and private insurance type programs where this stuff can't be implemented. What do you see is the difference between a successful incorporation of pure counsellors versus the ones that kind of fizzle out,
Jeff Kashou 43:32
it's going about it with a systematic approach. And that's I'd really emphasize either, you know, utilizing one of those toolkits, like I mentioned, the city of Philadelphia created, which is extremely comprehensive, and very much focused on the existing org and not necessarily on what peers need to be doing. But I think in the absence of that, it's really identifying just like with any big change that you want to make for a business, it's identifying, you know, what, you know, doing your SWOT analysis, and then looking at what is your measure? What's your success metric going to be? And how will you know you got there and then be flexible, to iterate and improve upon things as you move forward? Again, to that authenticity point, it's just like how we work with our, you know, our clientele, it's, you know, we don't expect perfect, but, you know, let's talk about what didn't go well, and let's improve upon it, we need to be able to do that authentically, as well. I think, unfortunately, in healthcare, and especially behavioral health care systems, where we're kind of the afterthought in terms of funding and attention and resources, you know, we just have always learned to make do and stay the course. And then on top of it, you have folks in power, who don't necessarily understand what we do, and they just kind of keep adding more and more stipulations and regulations and so on. And so it's also a matter of like, can you cut through some of that maybe sometimes even through the side door, like in California, we have our mhsaa funding that peer programs are oftentimes Funded there, which is very nice, and that they don't have to be capturing revenue through Medi Cal. This is through funding that has less requirements to it. But it's also pushing back and saying, do they really need to do this level of documentation? You know, so I do think it's a matter of like, thinking things through from bottom to top, like doing that assessment and really assessing yourself like, can we take this on, and being very brutally honest with yourself as a system of care, it's an exciting program, it's an exciting idea. It's one that can bring a lot of benefit. But you have to really understand what it is that you're bringing on. There's other companies that I've worked for that have said, you know, hey, we're, you know, one day down the line, we'll have peers and that way our current clientele can engage and give back, it'll be kind of a lower level service line. I think if you're thinking about it from that perspective, only, and really seeing the dollar signs as part of that image. It's not to say that, you know, money isn't the driver here, but it can't be that upfront. Otherwise, what you're doing is you're commoditizing, a service provider who is designed really to add value simply by them being there and engaging with clientele in that way, without necessarily generating dollars by increasing retention by increasing engagement in services. We know outcomes improve, when systems can demonstrate improve outcomes. Oftentimes, they're the ones that get the next grant are the ones that get the renewed contract, sometimes even a larger contract. So it's really, you know, credenza question in a short way. It's, it's all about approaching it systematically. And not just Yeah, that sounds really exciting. Let's do this.
Katie Vernoy 46:43
I think it has to be baked in, it can't be like, let's add this on to the program. It's almost like you have to build it from the ground up, to have these truly integrated into whatever the treatment program is.
Jeff Kashou 46:56
Yeah, there's kind of three different approaches that that Philadelphia tool toolbox outlines, just like that additive approach that I discussed, there's that selective approach. And then it's really taking on the one that has the greatest level of success is what's called a transformative approach, which a lot of systems are understandably nervous to take on. But to make a program successful, you have to be willing to transform things, sometimes top to bottom to make it work.
Katie Vernoy 47:21
Yeah, it's interesting, because the the program that I had, it was, it was baked in, it was like, my agency decided to do a wraparound program. And at the time, it was called an FSP. Program. And so as, you know, maybe you move clinicians into it, but it was like, here is how you do it. And it was baked in. So it wasn't like, Oh, you're already doing services, let's add this on. Functionally, maybe it looked that way. Because we had clients who then you know, like, followed their therapist, and then got these other services added on. But the program itself was well defined by LA County. And so there was discrete roles, there was training that was required. And like, especially with wraparound, there was like, a week long training where you, everybody went, and there were people from all different roles, and you went when you just first started and all the managers had to go to, so I had to go to it as well. And we would sit there for a full week and interact with other people in our same roles or in the in the peer or the you know, the all the different specialists roles. And so to me, it was, it didn't feel as chaotic because it was like it was completely structured. And it was baked in.
Jeff Kashou 48:31
Yeah, and a wraparound program is oftentimes very much set up for that, you know, they traditionally will have either bachelor's level providers as PSCs, or personal service coordinators, which truthfully appear would be phenomenal at which it sounds like that was the role that you had at your program. And because
Katie Vernoy 48:47
No we had we had bachelor's level folks, we had peers, we had a facilitator, and we had a therapist, so there was four or five people on the team.
Jeff Kashou 48:56
That's a tremendous program. You know, and we're the approach, you know, you've probably experienced this as well, the approach of a wraparound program is like whatever it takes, you know, this is a child, an individual, a family in such a challenging situation that we have to throw everything at this person that they need, and and some to get them to the, you know, to a better place.
Katie Vernoy 49:17
Yeah, yeah. I think it just is a good way to think about it as if you actually create a program from the ground up that includes these roles. I think that is stronger. I'm really glad that we're that we did this episode that we're talking about this related to our fixing mental health care in America. I know that it was mentioned in the RAND report, but I also recognize that one of the elements of this is it has been viewed. I think we did this in one of our more recent advocacy and workforce episodes as a way that we take away work from licensed credentialed mental health professionals and I really see this as an important adjunct a positive step forward. And I think we were able to really see that in the conversations that we had with our three guests today.
Curt Widhalm 50:08
And I mentioned a couple of times in the show, both this episode and recently about how little using supporting roles, like peer support specialists is actually taught as part of therapists education.
Katie Vernoy 50:22
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 50:23
And there's a lot of emphasis on therapists education that's on what we as individuals can do to help with clients, but don't help us to look at the overall workforce system. And I'm echoing your happiness of this episode. And being able to amplify that really good. Mental, behavioral, emotional health treatments, takes a village. And it does take people from a lot of different viewpoints to really help create healing. And especially those people who have that lived experience and have a really great way of helping to help our clients interact with the system to be able to navigate it in ways that makes sense for them. So continuing to emphasize this will be part of our ongoing role in bringing mental health advocacy to the world. And we encourage you to do so as well.
Katie Vernoy 51:24
And for folks who were really interested in this, there are a lot of links in the shownotes that will help you with some of the some of these concepts, we've got the the guides and those things both onpattro and Jeff sent stuff over that are very helpful for folks who either want to be a peer support specialist or who want to implement those programs. So definitely feel free to reach out to us if can't find it on our show notes. But those things are just the really amazing resources that we were able to put down there.
Curt Widhalm 51:55
You can find those show notes over at MCSG podcast.com. And check out our social media out give us a like or a follow and schrinner Facebook group modern therapist group to further these discussions. And until next time, I'm Kurt Wilhelm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 52:11
Thanks again to our sponsor, trauma therapist network.
Curt Widhalm 52:15
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There's so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan LCSW WC created trauma therapist network. Trauma therapist network therapist profiles include the types of traumas specialized in population served therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them. Network is more than a directory though its community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect consults, and network with colleagues around the country.
Katie Vernoy 52:52
Join the growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code Mt. SG 20 at Trauma therapist network.com Once again that's capital MTS G the number 20 at Trauma therapist network.com
Announcer 53:09
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Is Your Practice Ready for Paid Digital Marketing? An interview with John Sanders, owner of RevKey, about Google and Social Media Ads. Curt and Katie talk with John about the importance of a solid website, effective sales process, and metrics when considering paid digital advertising. We also explore what to expect when you create Google or Facebook Ads. We also talk about why you may want to outsource this and the financial risks for getting this marketing wrong.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with John Sanders, RevKey John is an expert in paid search, specifically, Google Ads (which used to be called Google AdWords). He holds a BBA and MBA, and he has put this education to work in a variety of positions in the marketing field, including inside sales, purchasing, E-Commerce, and marketing management. Once he found Google Ads, John was hooked. He enjoys helping businesses generate leads through Google Ads that will help their companies grow, and he has partnered with businesses in a range of professions, including medical offices, B2B companies, and national product brands. John can help your business achieve its full potential.
In this episode we talk about: * Google Ads and other digital advertising (social media for example) * The mistakes folks make in purchasing digital ads, typical pitfalls * Specific to Google Search Ads: why not to use smart or dynamic ads * Keywords and negative keywords * The importance of tracking your results and what results you’re looking for * The difference between social media and Google ads * What a good ad looks like and what page it goes to * What’s needed on a website before starting Google Ads (sufficient, relevant content and pages) * Service pages and the specificity of the search * How social media ads work (e.g., Facebook and Instagram) * Building an audience within social media to target with your ads * The value of an ideal client or niche when using social media ads * Social media is more of a branding exercise than Google Ads * Facebook has a lot of specific rules for advertising * What return on investment you should expect, the goal of placing ads * How to assess what is not working * Looking through the full sales cycle to determine where to improve efforts (including answering your phone) * The technical savvy that is needed to run and assess these ads * The usefulness of Google analytics * Determining DIY versus hiring out advertising * How to outsource paid digital advertising * How to determine the average value of a client * Advantage of paid digital advertising versus Search Engine Optimization (SEO) * The potential to lose money if this is done wrong * The benefit if it is set up properly * Setting up a multitier marketing plan including Google Ads and SEO
Our Generous Sponsor: Trauma Therapist Network
Trauma is highly prevalent in mental health client populations and people are looking for therapists with specialized training and experience in trauma, but they often don't know where to start.
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There are so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan, LCSW-C created Trauma Therapist Network.
Trauma Therapist Network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work and what they specialize in, so potential clients can find them.
Trauma Therapist Network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in, populations served and therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them.
The Network is more than a directory, though. It's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consult and network with colleagues around the country. Join our growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code: MTSG20 at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
RevKey.com
Relevant Episodes:
Bad Marketing Decisions
The Brand Called You
Creating Relevant Ads
Hostage Marketing
SEO Guide for Therapists
Marketing with Empathy
Clinical Marketing
Branding for Your Ideal Client
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by Trauma Therapist Network.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Trauma therapist network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work, and what they specialize in so potential clients can find them. Visit trauma therapist network.com To learn more, listen at the end of the episode for more about the trauma therapist network.
Announcer 00:31
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 00:47
Welcome back modern therapists This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things that therapists face. Sometimes their business stuff, and today's episode is diving into the world of online digital advertising. Any of us who are working through the pandemic have our small businesses, needing to find ways to potentially reach new clients that we haven't had to in the past. I know for people like me, I've built my practice largely on in person networking and some of those relationships. But it's as I get asked by some of the listeners of like, I'm ready to start a practice now. How do I develop a practice like yours? And I say, I don't know, because we're not allowed to beat people during the pandemic. I don't know, maybe like find some Google ads or some Facebook ads. They're like, Well, what works for you. And I'm like, talk to our guest today. John Sanders from RevKey, this is something that he's going to be able to speak on way better than I am. John, thank you for joining us today.
John Sanders 01:54
Thanks for having me.
Katie Vernoy 01:56
We're excited to have you here I was so I don't know what the right word pleased. I'll just say pleased, I was so pleased when you reached out to connect related to the conference, actually, and I'm so excited that you're one of our conference sponsors. Thank you so much for your support. But just in talking with you and about RevKey and what your mission is, I am really excited to have you to talk with our audience about this area that I think a lot of folks just don't know anything about and can be a real great way for people to market their practices. So we'll dive right in with the question we ask all of our guests, which is who are you and what are you putting out to the world.
John Sanders 02:34
So I'm John Sanders. I'm the owner of RevKey. And I focus on Google ads for mental health professionals, probably 90% of my revenue is generated by therapists and counselors who are looking to increase the size their practice, and get new clients either for themselves or for therapists who are working for them. I started doing this I, I kind of got into this a little bit of a natural way, my wife opened her testing psychology practice. And so I started running Google ads for her while I was also running Google ads during the day doing a day job at a marketing agency. And over time, helping her started helping a couple of her friends. And then 2018, it just became my entire job. And I quit my marketing agency job. And I opened rev key and I haven't looked back since.
Katie Vernoy 03:28
Nice, I like it. There's a lot of mistakes to be made in buying digital ads, rather than going networking to a small community where people might be able to get to your physical office or that kind of stuff. Now you're potentially advertising to the whole world. What kind of mistakes do you see people making when they're first moving into some of these online ads that if we can save them a few dollars here and there to be able to be more effective with them? What kind of mistakes do you see that people could avoid?
John Sanders 04:02
Sure. So with Google ads, some of the most common mistakes are setting up what's called a smart advertising campaign where Google really does most of the work for you. But it really doesn't have a lot of options in terms of customizing different ads, and trying to avoid clicks that you don't necessarily want. So if you're going to use Google ads, and when we're talking about Google ads, we're talking very specifically about Google search ads. And those are the advertisements that appear on Google after somebody searches something, make sure you're using the full version of Google ads and not not a smart ad. I'm not a big fan of their dynamic ads that just scan your website, you can end up with all sorts of weird traffic based off of that. We want to be able to go and specifically say these are the keywords that we want to target and then we want to be able to look at the search terms what people are actually searching to come to your website, a couple of other things that that I commonly see when people come to me who are running their own Google ads is not having any what are called negative keywords. And those are words that you put into Google and say, if this word appears in the search, do not show my ad. And probably the most common one that I see is massage. So I'll see a bunch of people will say therapy near me, and they'll get a bunch of searches for massage therapy near me, which is what we absolutely don't want. And then probably the final thing is not really having a good way of tracking your results, not really knowing how many people are calling you, because your ads not knowing how many people are filling out forms. And so you don't really know if Google ads is working for you if you don't do those things. So all of a sudden, Google ads just becomes you know, a charge on your credit card every month that you're just not sure if you're getting anything out of it. So that measurement piece is super important.
Katie Vernoy 06:00
So there's different types of ads that I know that you work on. I know you do Google ads, but you also do social media ads. And to me, it seems like most of these platforms are cost per click or cost for per view, or the more people are responding to clicking into seeing your ad, the more you're going to pay. And so it seems like there's some nuance there that would be important for people to understand what they should use, which one is better for their practice that kind of stuff. So talk to us a little bit about. And maybe this is way too big of a question. But as far as like, what does a good Google Ad look like? Why should someone think about Google ads? And then also looking at the the social media ads, and when that is potentially the right choice, the better choice a good addition? You know, it's kind of like, what are we talking about here, when we're saying digital marketing, online, paid ads?
John Sanders 06:54
Well, let's start with social media ads. In this case, they are a very different animal from Google search ads in that if somebody searches you on Google, they are at least somewhat through their buying journey already to use a little marketing speak, they have already decided that they need a therapist, and so they type in something like therapist near me or counseling near me. And then you know, we want to show them an ad that really deals with what they're looking at. So for example, if somebody types in anxiety treatment near me, or anxiety treatment in their city, I want to show them an ad that talks very specifically about anxiety, I don't want a generalist ad, I don't want something that includes something about couples counseling, or anything that's not related to anxiety, I want then them to click onto my ad. And I want to take them to a page on a website that talks very specifically about anxiety treatment, I don't want to take them to a page that is a bullet point of services, or a homepage that has a whole bunch of other things that they're not looking for, I want to take them to a page specifically about anxiety. And ultimately, the goal is for them to either call you fill out a form or go to, you know, some sort of scheduling link. And that's really the process when you advertise on Google that you should think about as every time you're putting in a keyword thinking, What page is this going to? And how is this going to be successful. And that's really kind of how you should write your ads. And also be thinking about your website. You know, one of the things that we had talked about previously is that before you start Google ads, really getting a good website going is very key and having what we would call service pages, where you have a page very specifically for all of the specialties that that you do, instead of having that page of just bullet points, because that's not going to engage customers. Also, Google's constantly judging our ads. And they're not going to really see that as a high quality landing page. And so your ads are going to get judged by Google for that. So it's really good to have those pages in place before you start advertising both from a Google standpoint, and also from a potential user standpoint as well.
Katie Vernoy 09:12
Yeach you don't want to pay for something and send them to a website that then talks them out of working with you.
John Sanders 09:18
Right, or just doesn't have any information. And yeah, and I know that it's really easy to fall into that trap is, you know, if you're just starting out, you go on WordPress, and you put together your first website, to not include enough content out there. But really the it's it is very key to make sure that you have that content before you start trying to advertise,
Katie Vernoy 09:41
you know, you talked about kind of being a certain way through the the buying process or the or whatever when they're searching on Google for a therapist, but when we're looking at Facebook ads or Instagram ads or any of the social ads, like how do those work and what are those best use for
John Sanders 09:59
So Facebook and Instagram ads are both run out of the same platform. And the way that you target customers is by creating what's called an audience. And this is a combination of behaviors and demographics and interest that people have. So you can say, show my ads to people who have job titles similar to therapist or something along those lines. And you can put in several different ones. You can also do it based off of behavior have they come to your website before that is what's called remarketing, although that's going to get a little more difficult in the next year as kind of that cookie based remarketing that a lot of people have heard about is going to start to go away. So you can target people based off of their age based off of their location based off of particular interest they might have. And so it's really good to use social media ads, when you have a very specific idea of who your audience is, in terms of those demographics. If you're more of a general therapy practice, you're you're going on a little bit of a fishing expedition, because you're going to write kind of a general ad towards a general audience. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But we can't measure it in a lot of the same ways as a Google search ad where they're already so far through the buying process, you could end up showing ads to people who don't think they need a therapist, or I've never even thought about getting a therapist. And so then it's much more of a multistage situation where you're trying to get them to come to your website, and then maybe you serve them some remarketing ads, or you send them an email or something along those lines. And so I really kind of warn people that when you're doing social media ads to not necessarily hold them to a the same standard as Google, but also to think about a little more as an exercise in branding than what I would call direct conversion.
Katie Vernoy 11:57
You're saying that direct conversion be more likely if they have a product or a book or or some sort of like an event like something that's very specific, that's going to be a better social media ad than, hey, do you happen to be ready for therapy right in this moment, and I've targeted you appropriately.
John Sanders 12:17
Right, exactly. And also, with social media ads, you have to be very careful about the wording you use. For instance, you know, if you try to use the word, you in a Facebook ad, your ad could get disapproved, because you're trying to talk directly to the customer, which Facebook does not like, and Facebook has a number of rules around, you know, the wording and usage it within within your ads, and probably more rules than Google has on that front.
Katie Vernoy 12:48
What makes a successful campaign, you're talking about getting better results here. How do you interpret whether or not what you're doing is successful?
John Sanders 12:55
You know, when we talk about it within Google ads, if we are getting 100 clicks for a customer, I want to see how many of those actually turned into phone calls, leads scheduled clicks. And look at that in terms of our percentage, generally, I want that percentage to be at least 5%. So if 100 people click on your ads, I want at least five of them to do something. And then we also have to look at how much you're spending for each of those leads. And then ultimately, the most important thing is, are those leads turning into customers and revenue for you. If you get into a situation where you're spending $500 a month on Google ads, you want to make sure that you are getting a good return for for that $500 ad spend. And that's where kind of tracking get with you know, your assistant to make sure that those people that are clicking on your ads are actually turning into clients is super important.
Katie Vernoy 13:54
When you're finding that people are not hitting like that 5% What do you see as often kind of contributing to that? Or what kinds of steps do you look at to evaluate where things aren't converting?
John Sanders 14:06
Sure. I think it depends on the, you know, where people are kind of dropping off in the process. You know, for instance, if you know, somebody comes to me, and shows me their Google Ads account, and they're saying, I'm not really getting anything off of this. And I find that you know, less than 1% of people are actually clicking on their ads, that's usually an indication that you have an ad problem, or your ads are being served on search terms that we don't want to go back to the massage therapy example. If you're advertising anxiety therapy and somebody types in massage therapy near me, your ads never kind of get clicked on. So that's that's one of the first things to to look at. If people are then you know if people are actually clicking on your ads that are relatively recent, right, which I would define as about at least two to 3% of the time. I know they're getting to your website. Are they spending enough time on your website? If you find find that your average time on your website is from people from your ads is 30 seconds, they're not spending very long on your website, and they're not seeing a particular bit of content that that they are looking for, kind of the measure that I have for that is I want to make sure people are spending at least 60 seconds on your website. And to go back to the previous example of the service page that just has bullet points. If you're running ads to that, typically people are going to look at that and go, and then they're going to click off under 30 seconds, and you're not going to end up converting that client.
Katie Vernoy 15:37
There's a lot of stuff you're talking about that sounds pretty technical, which is, you know, kind of monitoring the click rate monitoring, you know, and kind of what percentage are people clicking and what percentage of people are actually getting to the website, and how long they're spending on the website? That seems like a lot to first figure out how you can actually get that information. And then also a lot to try to sort through like for DIY errs Is it obvious if you're able to get a little bit technically savvy, how to get that data, so you can even look at it.
John Sanders 16:14
Google Ads has a lot of different menus in it. And so that can, especially if you don't know what you're looking for, can be a little difficult. In a lot of cases, you're having to pull information from another program called Google Analytics, which even if you're not running Google ads, you should definitely have Google Analytics installed on your website. So you can see how many clicks overall, you're getting, how long people are spending on your website, getting information about about those individual pages,
Katie Vernoy 16:42
it seems like people need to have at least some some knowledge and have installed at least Google Analytics to be able to see some of this data.
John Sanders 16:51
Right. And that's one of the first things that as a common mistake that when people will come to me and they're they've maybe they've been running their own Google ads, that they haven't installed Google Analytics, or they haven't put on those negative keywords that we've talked about. Or you don't really have any of that measurement, which is not necessarily obvious in Google ads. And in a lot of cases, you have to involve things like Google Analytics, or even third party programs, if you're looking to track some calls,
Katie Vernoy 17:18
as far as some of the time investment to figure this kind of stuff out. And I'm guessing the monetary mistakes to try some of these things out, see what's effective or not, is this worth a clinicians time to invest this kind of stuff? Or is this kind of one of those things where the best advice is, have people who are good at this pay for their services and let them do their thing, we don't want them treating suicidal clients, we want them to refer to us therapists is this honestly, just something where it's a better use of clinicians time to hire out these kinds of services,
John Sanders 17:58
I would say for the most part, this is something you want to hire out. Much like I hire out graphics design or accounting, I don't like to do accounting. That's why I have an accountant. And I could spend my time and try to figure all of this out. But I probably wouldn't end up doing that good of a job on it. As somebody who professionally does it day in and day out. That's not to say you can't I've had some very technically minded therapist, especially a couple of them that, you know, maybe used to work in it. And this is their their second job, those guys have been able to understand it fairly well. But for the most part, I would say most of the people who try this themselves, they fall into some of these traps that we've talked about. And they potentially end up wasting a lot of money on Google, that doesn't really lead to any clients.
Katie Vernoy 18:47
Yeah, I think to me, the financial downside of doing this wrong can be pretty high, especially if you set it and forget it. And to me, I feel like this is something that I cannot emphasize enough that if you can get it right. I mean, this is a way to have marketing just happening in the background all the time. And this is kind of what therapists desire, like I don't have to do anything and I get clients. And so it's interesting because I think a lot of people are worried to invest. How would somebody identify a good return on investment for outsourcing Google ads, outsourcing potentially other paid online marketing? And and kind of what that would look like? Like, let's just say a solo practitioner who's wanting to start or grow their caseload like, what should they expect as far as being able to get something like this set up? And then what would that return look like?
John Sanders 19:46
I think to answer that question, you have to start with, what the average value of your client is, what you're charging, how many sessions you're keeping them. And if you can, look at that. data you can figure out, well, I charge, let's say, $100 an hour, people tend to stay with me 20 to 30 sessions. So we have each customer being approximately worth two to $3,000. And then you have to think about how much would you be willing to pay for one of those customers. And so, you know, we go back to what we talked about earlier, where let's say you're spending $500 on Google a month, if you can get one client out of that, who's two to $3,000. In revenue, that's a pretty good when and if you get any more than that, it's enormous. If you can be getting four to $6,000, of revenue off of $500, in advertising spent. And you also do have to kind of keep in mind, especially if you're, if you're doing therapy, you have to kind of think about that long term return on investment of what that client is worth, you know, over their lifetime to you, as opposed to on a month to month basis. I think that that's a mistake that that some people make, they'll say, Well, you know, in month X, I'm only gonna make x on this. But you have to not necessarily think about month one, you have to be thinking about months 2345 and six,
Katie Vernoy 21:11
how long does it take to reasonably expect a return on is that it I hear clinicians who are like, Oh, I'm hitting a slowdown portion of my schedule, you know, summertime slowdown or something like that, now's the time that I should be investing in Google ads, are they going to see the kind of quick turnaround to fill up their practice with this kind of an investment? Or is this something that needs to be planned out even more ahead of time on something like this,
John Sanders 21:37
the advantage that Google ads and digital advertising in general has over I would say search engine optimization is that it is something that you can do, and get on the first page. Like if you're a solo practitioner, who's just gotten started, if you try to organically grow on Google, that can take six months to a year, for you to really start getting some clicks off of that the advantage Google Ads has is you go tell Google can show these ads for these particular keywords. And you can get on to that first page, really, really quickly. And really kind of that first 30 days for me is is the period of where I'm figuring out in a specific market, you know how much I'm going to pay for each of those clicks. And that's gonna vary greatly, depending on the market, and what you are trying to advertise. If you're trying to do couples therapy in New York, be prepared to pay eight to $10 per click. If you're trying to do general therapy out in a suburb, you might, you know, only pay three to $5 that click. And that is very much based off of who else is there who is trying to advertise? To get an idea of that what you need to be bidding on those keywords? And then also looking at those results. Are you are you seeing the results? Are people staying on your pages long enough? Are they calling YOU ARE THEY filling out your forms, and that's where you start to to make adjustments, and then over time, you will figure out, you know, I need to change the content on this page, or I need to not advertise in a specific neighborhood that maybe is too far from your practice. And that's kind of the optimization process. And then also looking at, and I would say that this is probably the most important thing for the DIY audience out there is to look at the search terms that are causing your ads to appear. And if most of them are good, you're probably going to do really well. But if you see a bunch of nonsensical therapies, and I see all sorts of different types of therapies that come up that we want to add to the negative keyword list, if you're spending a lot of money on things that aren't relevant to your business, it's going to be very hard for you to succeed with Google ads.
Katie Vernoy 23:53
One of the things that I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong is that there's the initial optimization process of making sure that your ad was reading properly, has the right keywords, has good negative keywords. And then it's driving traffic to a page that actually closes the business, so to speak, and gets people to sign up for consults or call the practice or whatever, and to become clients. So there's, there's a part that truly needs to be the therapist or the therapist with a marketing specialist on making sure the webpage that you're driving traffic to is going to convert and going to be targeting the right people. And then also potentially really looking at what is your intake process look like? What is your call look like? You know, do you have? Like, can you get all the way through the sales cycle, so to speak, but once you get that set up, once you have an optimized ad, you have your page is on fire. You you close the call, and you're getting clients, it almost feels like it could be a spigot that your turn off and on with Google ads, because you'll you know, I assume that there's going to be a job So with algorithms and that kind of stuff, so there's still a little bit of tweaking after that. But to me, it seems like once it's set up, then that process of the summer slowdown that Kurt's talking about would be like, Okay, well, we just need to in about two weeks before we want to get some more clients, we just turn on the Google ads. Am I Am I oversimplifying that too much.
John Sanders 25:19
I think it depends on the practice. I think if you're a solo practitioner, I think that that can definitely be the case, I have larger clients who, if they've got 10 therapists, and all of them get full, they go out and hire two more. And then so those Google Ads kind of continue on going. Or for more of your midsize practice that, you know, is four or five people and they hire a new therapist who is specialized in couples, then it's okay. For these couple of months, let's go ahead and run ads for couples and marriage and relationships and really focus on those pieces. So I think that that really depends on the size of the practice. But I think that you are right, in that for smaller practices, you can do that it's probably the number one reason I lose customers is because they get fault, which is a it's a high class problem to have. But it's still a problem.
Katie Vernoy 26:12
So you need more clients
John Sanders 26:14
Well and one of the things I'm also working on right now is is doing a search engine optimization product, because that is the sort of long term planning, and is also another complicated subject of being able to help build practices over the over the long term, like I said, that can take six to nine months for Google to really start recognizing your website with when they crawl it and saying that this is a high quality website and should appear higher up in the search results.
Katie Vernoy 26:42
I think that ends up being a good plan where you start with Google ads, and in the background, you're building the SEO. So it seems like it's a natural partnership, for sure.
John Sanders 26:50
Right
Katie Vernoy 26:51
What kind of tips do you have, you know, spending the last moments here of the podcast here of how those two things fit together? I mean, you're talking about outsourcing this, but for clinicians who are trying to picture okay, I've got the ads, what needs to go on to the website in order to keep people there who are engaged, do I just like, put a video that takes 45 seconds to load so that way, they're going to stay for a minute,
John Sanders 27:18
Google won't like that at all.
Katie Vernoy 27:21
And if the video doesn't load, I'm off that page in 10 seconds.
John Sanders 27:25
Absolutely. Google. And Google knows that. I mean, one of the things that when Google's judging a landing pages, not only is it judging, you know, the content, but it also like if you have images or videos that roll out really slow, Google is not going to show your ads as high up in terms of you know, some of the other things a writer I regularly work with, you know, recommends that you have, you know, four to 500 words on that page. Not only does that give Google enough keywords to grab a hold of and say okay, that this is high quality for an anxiety search. But also, it allows people who are actually looking at it to go yes, this is this is what I'm feeling this is, you know, this is what's happening with me, and to kind of get them nodding their head, and then you know, hopefully, getting them to take that next step of contacting you somehow.
Katie Vernoy 28:16
I think it's something where the hard truth for folks that want to get clients quickly, because I think I've definitely had consulting clients that are like, should I do Google ads, and I was like, let's look at your website first. And I think the hard truth is, sometimes there is quite a bit of work that needs to happen before you really can take this into, into your marketing strategy. Because if you're spending money to send them to a website, that does not reflect who your ideal clients are, does not connect with your ideal clients, and does not show you in the best light. It's it's just throwing money in a hole, and it's not actually getting you results. And it can be very discouraging. And so there may be some work to do ahead of time to get prepared for the calls to get prepared for the web traffic. But once you actually have that in place, it sounds like Google Ads can be a way that you can really, pretty quickly start building a caseload and the return on investment can be very high, especially if you if you have a fee and a length of treatment, typical length of treatment that makes each client worth 1000s of dollars. And you know, even if you're only getting one client a month, you know, that still ends up being a nice return on investment. And usually I'm hearing people get more than that. Do you have a sense of like, if you've got a really good, optimized ad, like you know, and a reasonable spend, you know, how many people are typically getting, how many clients people are typically getting?
John Sanders 29:48
Well, let's you know, take that 100 Click example. And you know, we talked about 5% Earlier, let's double that. Let's say let's say you're doing really well and you get you get 10 people who contact you, then it gets down to that, that that close process that that we talked about earlier, are you are you answering your phone is a common thing that I'll end up talking to clients about who I'll notice off of my call tracking software, they're not answering their phone, and they're getting a bunch of voicemail messages. But if you can take those 10 leads, and you know, you can turn six of those into clients, you know, all of a sudden, your your return on investment, if you're spending $500, you know, you could be looking at several $1,000, and potential long term revenue. That's huge. And, um, it is very hard to find a way to do that anywhere else. You had mentioned the work that goes up front, very often, when people contact me, they'll say, Hey, I'd like to run Google ads. And you know, I really have to tell them, Okay, go work with a content writer, go work with, you know, web designer, let's let's get your website in a good place before we try to run those ads. Because otherwise, I'm going to start running ads, you're not going to get the results and you're just going to get mad at me. And that's just no fun. I, I'd much rather do all of that upfront and delay working with a client for three months. And this happens on a fairly regular basis where I'll refer people out and then they come back three months later and say, okay, my website's ready. Let's go ahead and run those ads.
Katie Vernoy 31:14
Yeah. And I would add, make sure that you have a conversation with someone if your close rate isn't what you'd like it to be if you get a lot of calls, and nobody becomes clients. There's other folks to talk to about that as well.
John Sanders 31:26
And I think Google ads, especially once you put some of those tracking metrics on there, that makes it very obvious very quickly. For instance, I have some larger practices who will go through those call logs, and they will, you know, really scrutinize those and you know, potentially say, you know, why aren't these these people closing? If you're seeing a closed rate of only 30%? You know, you have to start asking those questions about what's going on with the intake process that's causing that drop off?
Katie Vernoy 31:54
Where can people find out more about you and your services.
John Sanders 31:57
Sure, if you want to know more about me and what I'm about, go to redsky.com, that's revkey.com. And feel free to fill out that form on the website. And I will get back with you really quickly because because this is what I preach to people all day. So you've you've got to follow up on those leads. So and then, you know, typically what I do is, you know, start with a conversation where we talk about their practice and how many people they have and you know what specialties they they want to run for. And then put together a proposal and send it over to him and hopefully start working with them.
Curt Widhalm 32:35
And we'll include links to that in our show notes. You can find those at MTSG podcast.com. And until next time I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and John Sanders.
Katie Vernoy 32:46
Thanks again to our sponsor, trauma therapist network.
Curt Widhalm 32:49
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you can know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There's so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan LCSW WC created trauma therapist network. Trauma therapist network therapist profiles include the types of traumas specialized in population served therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them. Network is more than a directory though its community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect consults, and network with colleagues around the country.
Katie Vernoy 33:26
Join the growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code MTSG20 at Trauma therapist network.com Once again that's capital MTSG the number 20 at Trauma therapist network.com
Announcer 33:43
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Conspiracy Theories in Your Office Curt and Katie chat about clients who bring conspiracy theories into therapy. We talk about differentiating between psychosis and believing in conspiracy theories, the characteristics of folks who may be likely to subscribe to these theories, and the importance of the relationship in working with these folks. We also look at steps we would like professional organizations to take to support clinicians.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How to handle when clients bring conspiracy theories into your office * Distinguishing between delusions, shared psychosis, and conspiracy theories * Reality testing, obsessive research, and other factors that may distinguish between psychosis and conspiracy theory * The impact of internet research and social media algorithms * The characteristics of folks who are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories * How fear of uncertainty, lack of trust can play into this dynamic * Societal impacts like advertising certainty * The different responsibility that therapists have when someone brings in a conspiracy theory * Hesitation in addressing these theories both in the room and at the professional org level * The continuum of engagement with conspiracy theories (from “entertainment” to going down the rabbit hole) * The level of investment in the theory, groups forming around these theories, and cults * The risk factors and legal/ethical responsibilities related to harm * Allen Lipscomb’s BRUH modality (Bonding Recognition Understanding and Healing) * The problem with direct challenging * The importance of identifying is it a conspiracy theory or is someone actually out to get you, especially with clients who are in traditionally marginalized communities * Building trust within the relationship through deep understanding of the client’s experiences * Societal measures that can help (like deplatforming leaders of the theories) * Starting from compassion and curiosity; managing reactions * Exploring the nuance of challenging irrational fears versus conspiracy theories * Seeking common ground and identifying impacts * The call to action to professional organizations for guidance and taking a stance (and the understanding of why they balk at doing so)
Our Generous Sponsor: Trauma Therapist Network
Trauma is highly prevalent in mental health client populations and people are looking for therapists with specialized training and experience in trauma, but they often don't know where to start.
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There are so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan, LCSW-C created Trauma Therapist Network.
Trauma Therapist Network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work and what they specialize in, so potential clients can find them.
Trauma Therapist Network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in, populations served and therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them.
The Network is more than a directory, though. It's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consult and network with colleagues around the country. Join our growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code: MTSG20 at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Mind of a Conspiracy Theorist in Psych Today
Mashable Article: What happens when people talk to their therapists about conspiracy theories? It’s tricky
Relevant Episodes:
Political Reactionism and the War on Science (interview with Dr. Tereza Capelos)
White Terrorism and Therapy
Mass Shooters and Mental Illness
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by trauma therapist network.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Trauma therapist network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work, and what they specialize in so potential clients can find them. Visit trauma therapist network.com To learn more,
Curt Widhalm 00:27
Listen at the end of the episode for more about the trauma therapist network.
Announcer 00:31
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:47
Welcome back modern therapists, this is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapy related for therapists the things that we do the things that we face with clients, and literally everything else. Even the things that you don't know that are out there, we are today talking about conspiracy theories. And are we are we actually treading into a conspiracy theory podcast here, like, I'm just now realizing that, but what to do, how to handle when clients are bringing conspiracy theories into the office. Now, as we're looking at this episodes, we don't want to necessarily speak to any particular conspiracy theories that are out there. So we're just going to use a philan conspiracy theory as an example throughout this episode. So the theory that we're working with today is that the company is behind seeded grapes are all just a money laundering front because no one buys seated grapes on purpose.
Katie Vernoy 02:02
I think that's a great one. Okay.
Curt Widhalm 02:04
We're gonna work with that. So do you have clients who were talking conspiracy theories? Bringing in seeded grapes into your sessions?
Katie Vernoy 02:17
Not currently. Actually. I had some folks previously pretty recently, but I think the thing I want to distinguish first, because I think that there are conspiracy theories, and then there's also delusions, shared psychosis and and other types of psych psychotic symptoms. And so because I've had clients that have psychotic symptoms and believe that the world is out to get them, but how do we differentiate conspiracy theory believers from folks who have psychosis? Because for me, I feel like psychosis has other elements to it, that potentially lead to that diagnosis versus someone who doesn't have a mental health condition, but has beliefs that are along the lines of conspiracy theory, how do you make that distinction?
Curt Widhalm 03:08
The profession has not really defined clearly the difference between the two other than we know that they're different. So if you're asking me, there's
Katie Vernoy 03:20
I just did ask you. Yeah, and I was just doing.
Curt Widhalm 03:25
So if you're asking me, it's a focus on ideas, it's more of the approach to the ideas than it is necessarily about the ideas themselves. That when I've worked with clients who have presented with delusions or with psychosis, or something else, there's a certain level of reality testing that we go through that those clients response to, that does not show the obsessiveness into the research of whatever YouTube videos are out there or spending the amount of time going into them. They're not alienating themselves away from friends and family in the way that conspiracy theorists tend to do. And as I see with some of the clients and some of the people who who consults with me, it's more of the actions around what the beliefs are that pushes something into kind of that conspiracy theorist territory. This is evidenced by some of the clients who might be sending me several YouTube links from somebody who got their doctorates off of, you know, some website someplace who's posting 30 minute videos about seeded grape industry and several of them and talking about how their family members will stop talking to them because of their beliefs. So, to me, it's more of the qualitative actions around how they approach it as opposed to necessarily the content of what they're bringing in.
Katie Vernoy 05:10
I agree, I think there's, with the clients that I've had with psychotic symptoms, they seem to just believe and know it to be true. There isn't that research level. I agree with that. I think there's also an element of, in fact, they see proof to the contrary, and fold it in to the delusion or the hallucination that they're experiencing, and it stays in this realm, that's very different. I do think that folks with psychosis can alienate the people around them. And I think, in fact, do they, you know, I've had clients where they believe that you're part of the conspiracy against them, and, and then either decide to meet with you anyway or not, I've had, you know, different folks who argue with, you know, the voices in their head, you know, to try to not do therapy or whatever, or believe family members are part of these larger things and alienate themselves. So I think it's, it's kind of like we know it when we see it. Right. You know, whereas conspiracy theories, sometimes it's perfectly reasonable and rational folks that have kind of gone down this social media rabbit hole, where, you know, basically all of the the algorithms are, are designed to give them more and more information about the seeded grape industry that were as someone with more of a kind of a standalone psychosis or delusion, doesn't have that it's more that they are building things. And this means this, which means this, which means this and it's it's their own logic versus something that they're finding within more established means that that they believe they're doing the correct research, but they've actually gone down these these rabbit holes.
Curt Widhalm 06:53
There's Psychology Today article that is the mind of a conspiracy theorist. This was part of their November 2020. Magazine. We'll link to this in our show notes, you can find those over at MTS g podcast.com. But this article talks about particular personality traits that are more likely to lead to people believing in conspiracy theories. And those things include things like low levels of trust, increase needs for closure, feelings of powerlessness, low self esteem, paranoid thinking, and a need to feel unique. And that these are rather stable personality traits that conspiracy theorists hold across their lifetime. And guides us into probably the crux of this episode, which is, what do we do with this, when these kinds of clients come into our office, when they talk with us about the things going on the coded messages that they might be receiving or spending inordinate amounts of time on the internet with that, it does help to look at the combination of these personality traits as part of how you might want to look at guiding your response.
Katie Vernoy 08:19
And as you were talking about the types of folks I just want to touch on that first, is it when you were talking about the traits it just reminded me of the conversation that we had with Dr. Tereza Capelos on treating political reactionism. And I think that there's there may be some some ties between kind of political extremism and belief in conspiracy theories, if there's some overlap in those those things. So I just wanted to comment on that. I will link to that podcast episode in the show notes as well. But it seems like there could be a perfect storm around this.
Curt Widhalm 08:56
Sure. It makes sense when you've got a low level of trust and the need for closure. Yeah, that if you're not trusting the information that is being presented, and you have that drive for needing things to be in nice, neat little boxes, that that sets up that profile of people who are always going to want just that little bit more, not believing that everything has been quite stated yet. And that leads to the opportunity to start filling in boxes that may not actually be there or partial boxes that kind of exists and haven't. And we've really seen this play out in kind of real time over the last couple of years where people in response to the scientific methods of round the COVID 19 pandemic. Don't follow along the scientific paths. have real time science, which is, oh, we've got an idea. We've tested this, this idea doesn't work, or this idea only partially works. Yeah. And the belief that either that is not factual or that it's absolutely factual and why are they keep looking? They must not be telling us something that is widely prevalent at this point.
Katie Vernoy 10:25
Sure. And I think that there when when we look at a lack of trust, there's societal efforts towards us feeling very decided. Very sure. In what what steps we must take, I mean, the marketing does that this is the answer to your problem purchase this thing. And it's the answer to your problem. And you know, the quick fixes and all those things, the setting with uncertainty, or the setting with, you know, kind of partially conflicting messages or those types of things is not something that we are really encouraged to do by a lot of the content we consume. So it makes sense that there are going to be during times of uncertainty that we want the security of a conspiracy theory, because it feels so definite, and it feels like you know, more than someone else, and it feels like you have the true answers, and so that you're safe, even if all the people around you are not. I think for me, the the part that becomes really hard is that there are if someone brings it into a therapy session, there's this, though, there's a different responsibility that we have, as therapists, let me say it that way, like as a therapist, we have a different responsibility to our clients, then a family member or a family member can just be like, yeah, that's crazy, dude, like, stop it. Whereas with us, as a therapist, there's, there's a responsibility to take care of this client. And there's a responsibility to sustain the therapeutic relationship, there's a responsibility to do and work in service of the client. And so to me, I think the the difficulty becomes, at what point do you push hard back on a conspiracy theory that's very harmful to a client? And at what point do you enter the world of the client and, and help them to kind of process what they're experiencing? I mean, I know we're gonna go into a few different articles that talk about how therapists are managing it. But one of the things and a I think it was a Mashable article that you sent over to be heard that the first paragraph was like, APA doesn't want to actually come on record with how to address conspiracy theories,
Curt Widhalm 12:44
why not? What are they hiding?
Katie Vernoy 12:48
Because they don't want to piss off people that maybe support them, right? And potentially, they don't want to stand up against what a lot of people are saying as conservative rhetoric as conspiracy theory. And we're clearly not saying that we're talking about seeded grapes. But I think that there's that element of, there's some shying away of talking about how do we actually handle this.
Curt Widhalm 13:11
And I think a lot of our tendencies are, this is uncomfortable, we don't want to piss off people. And so therefore, we're just going to smile politely to our clients, and then just return back to whatever's already in their treatment plan. Yeah. But there probably is times to push back on this. Because going back to the Psychology Today article, they point to Timothy McVeigh, the person behind the 1995, Oklahoma City bombing, as having violent fantasies that started out in conspiracy thinking, and, well, those level of things are rare. You did bring up our episode with trees capitalist as far as Yeah, that extremism can form some of the roots in this and it might lead to lower levels of vandalism and harm people destroying seated grapes, because right within this, you probably have a responsibility as a therapist to not just brush things off is his centric sort of hobby thinking. I've seen some literature around that there's kind of three groups of people when it comes to conspiracy theory type stuff is there's those who don't believe in anything that's kind of not scientific at all. There's the people who look at conspiracy theory type stuff with no kind of an entertainment value sort of thing. And then there's the people with the other extreme end who are alienating friends and family. They're staying up late into the night They're missing work because they're not caring for themselves. And it's a continuum. And some of the people who start in some of that entertainment sort of area, start going down the rabbit hole, and potentially do slide into some of this more extreme ideology and rhetoric. And especially with things like the internet, you mentioned the algorithms earlier of ending up in echo chambers, where they're only hearing people from the same viewpoints that end up developing them even further down the rabbit hole.
Katie Vernoy 15:37
And I think when there is that investment, in a conspiracy theory, or a range a, a family of conspiracy theories, and there is a group that forms around it, I think what can happen is that the investment is so high in it being true because of whatever it provides to them. But I think there There can also be an element of others, helping each other to overcome any objections from family members. From other things. I did a little bit of reading around cults and different things like that. And I think once you get a group of conspiracy theorists, I don't know when it becomes a cult, but I think it's something where some of those mechanisms of really getting into someone's head whether it's these algorithms or people and and really creating a space that allows them to disregard everything else in their life and just continue to support this conspiracy theory. I think that becomes more obviously, a mental health issue and a primary mental health issue. I think when we're talking about when do we have to step forward, I think that that knowing how to work with colds and knowing how to help someone, you know, whether it's deprogramming or whatever you want to call it, I think that that's a that's another conversation. That's not what we're talking about today. But when someone is starting to do things that are harmful to themselves to others to property, I mean, at some at certain points, even just as a therapist, we're mandated to take action to make sure that people are not causing harm. But I think the the nuance that that I think you're looking for and I think what we want to talk about today are folks who have these low, low, low level conspiracy theories that they believe in, that could rise to the level of violence or destruction of property, and how we intervene, where we don't alienate our clients. So that they start they keep going down the rabbit hole, but we're not with them, and we can't then take some of those protective action for them and for the people around them.
Curt Widhalm 17:46
One of the biggest signs is people who believe in one conspiracy theory are susceptible to believing in more and part of this is just in social expansion that says you start diving into some ideas that people that you would be conversing with in those areas would also be bringing in other conspiracy ideas. You know, not only is it seeded grapes but now it's seeded watermelons like why did those exist still What didn't we get that figured out? Like
Katie Vernoy 18:23
yeah, I think we've started a whole new conspiracy theory around seeded seeded fruit I'm sure that we can you know if you have the the biological knowledge of why we still have these seated grapes and seeded watermelons, please send us an email at curt@therapyreimagined.com
Curt Widhalm 18:42
only if these are videos by doctors and poorly lit rooms. At least half an hour in length. But in working with these, going to this Mashable article they interviewed Dr. Alan Lipscomb, he is a social worker who has worked a lot with black men grappling with trauma and grief and noticed with many of his clients that conspiracy theories became a reoccurring theme in their sessions really related to things like race related microaggressions that even started with things like the clients talking about, like the Tuskegee experiments, where the government purposely infected black people with syphilis and seeing the effects of these kinds of treatments,
Katie Vernoy 19:43
which is not a conspiracy, which is not - it's true,
Curt Widhalm 19:46
which is true.
Katie Vernoy 19:48
Yes.
Curt Widhalm 19:49
But this helps to push some of the mistrust of the government things
Katie Vernoy 19:55
of course,
Curt Widhalm 19:56
Which not going to blame it Anybody coming from this community with stuff like this in the history of having a healthy mistrust of government? Sure. And even in the response here, I love the acronym for Dr. Lips comms approach to this. It's called the bra approach. Now, I'm cynical enough that this could also be just like, bra, honestly. But this actually is an acronym that stands for bonding, recognition, understanding and healing. And even in the way that we're introducing his work with his particular population, comes with a place of understanding, yeah, I see where these people are coming from I, I agree that some of these interpretations are going to be natural responses. And it takes building trust with these clients, to help them work through some of the mistrust issues. And that includes working on the trust in the therapeutic relationship. Some of my clients who are coming in and talking about the money laundering that goes with CDB grapes right now will continuously kind of still test me with some of the things that they're talking about, Oh, you must not believe in seeded grapes at all that, you know, I hear you, I've, I've seen some seeded grapes before, like, these are things that you're not going to get anywhere with these kinds of clients by directly challenging them with your own beliefs. Otherwise, you're going to be, you know, seen as in on the conspiracy yourself.
Katie Vernoy 21:45
Yeah. Yeah, I guess the thing that I want to point out because I think with the the example, in the Mashable article, I think, the the other element of the conspiracy theories were, you know, kind of based in the reality of the medical harm against the black community, folks were believing that there were other things happening during the COVID 19 pandemic and with vaccines. So, to me, I think, the difficulty in sorting out, is it a conspiracy theory? Or are people actually out to get you - I think that part is really important, especially in marginalized communities. I think starting from a place of this as a conspiracy theory, can be very harmful. And so and you may not know that it's a conspiracy theory until you actually have a chance to sit with them and understand and so my thought process is, when you actually take the time to understand someone's perspective, understand the oppression that they're feeling, understand the fears that they have, and trying to sort out how is this impacting you? What evidence can you get for and against, and I think there's a there's an issue with going too much into the evidence with someone that's truly in the in thrall to a conspiracy theory, I think that there has to be a space that it may not be a conspiracy theory, it may be that they're actually being oppressed and marginalized and or people are out to get them. And so I guess I just wanted to comment on that. But I think that there's a need I agree a need for trust within the relationship so that you can truly understand the experience and understand where it's, it's going from my reality to a conspiracy theory.
Curt Widhalm 23:30
Part of what the COVID 19 pandemic has done is it's forced people away from being around people with differing viewpoints in their jobs in public. And therefore they are spending more time online with people who are sharing the same beliefs that you know that algorithm stuff that Katie was referring to earlier. Part of getting into the trusting relationship with your clients, also serves a very long term goal of helping to provide a space for them to think critically about different viewpoints and even potentially, opening up to not hearing from some of the heads of some of the theories that are being driven. We've seen this, we've seen evidence of this being successful with things like the D platforming of people like Alex Jones, that when their messages are no longer allowed on places like Twitter or Facebook or this kind of stuff. The people who have followed them, their rhetoric also becomes less extreme when it comes to some of these conspiracy theories. So keeping in mind that this is a slow and deliberate building of trust with clients means that you really have to watch your own reactions and sessions. You can't be rolling your eyes, you can't be necessarily avoiding conversations about these kinds of things. But having compassion for the starting place of where these clients are coming from, so that way, when they are ready or willing to take that next step with you, that you are seen as a trusted figure in their lives,
Katie Vernoy 25:24
how would you differentiate addressing a conspiracy theory with a client versus addressing a a fear that is gone to a slightly irrational place?
Curt Widhalm 25:38
I don't know that I would approach them much differently. That, at least as far as how I'm hearing, what you're saying, with some of the instances that have come up in my practice, is, in my general response, you know, I'll provide some curious space for Oh, I haven't heard about that, that does come from maybe a more neutral place that allows for me to be a curious thinker of Well, I wonder about, fill in the blank, you know, I wonder about, you know, seated oranges. So those things still exist. Or, you know, something that might be a curious challenge to it that does invite looking at things from from different viewpoints as team members that you would also do with clients who do present with irrational fears, irrational beliefs. Yeah. You know, Never have we ever, you know, just confronted a client in session, been, like, hey, that that irrational fear you have? How about just thinking about it differently? Like, if that was the way things worked, our grad school training would be a lot shorter, but it doesn't work that way. So it was
Katie Vernoy 26:57
it, there isn't Rational Emotive therapy? Isn't that kind of like, that's irrational? Like, isn't that isn't that actually a tried and true therapy.
Curt Widhalm 27:07
I love that Aaron Beck can just yell at clients that they're wrong and that, but it, but even even within REBT, there's the trust in this is somebody you know, you're not just yelling, that's your rational in the first session. You're not just there arguing with clients. And part of this is really understanding that you might get 45-50 minutes out of a week with a client, and they're spending eight hours a day online listening to Joe Rogan or
Katie Vernoy 27:43
the seeded grape industry.
Curt Widhalm 27:45
Yeah.
Katie Vernoy 27:47
I think the thing that I'm I'm sensing from the way that you work as well as this is the way that I work is that there is a connection with the client that then allows for some exploration of what's going on. I think this is another distinguisher, between conspiracy theory versus kind of an irrational fear within a normal kind of anxiety presentation is, is that folks who are anxious think that their anxiety is too high for what they're experiencing. And it seems like folks who with a conspiracy theory feel like they're not afraid enough that this is super dangerous. And so I think, really trying to sort through where someone sits there and being able to honor what is occurring, I think is really important. I think the that part that can get very confusing, I think, you know, and this has happened with me with some of my conspiracy focused psychosis that I've seen, but also I think, with folks who are just very intelligent people that believe things that have been put forward as conspiracy theories, I think what ends up happening is, is I try to connect with the pieces that feel like they are, I don't know what the right word is common ground maybe, and trying to understand the impact of of what they believe on how they behave on their relationships, trying to sort through it from that angle. I think it becomes challenging when there's just such an interweaving of reality and conspiracy theory where you can't just you can't yell at them. It's irrational because it's not completely irrational. There's it's so nuanced and there's so many little pieces that the conversation has to be very rich. And so it goes back to that element of it really has to come from a very strong relationship. And and we need to be able to stay in relationship and and the more we push back, the less light someone in our in our office is going to be able to hang with us if they've really invested in the conspiracy theory.
Curt Widhalm 29:55
This Mashable article has interviewed Dr. Ziv Cohen, the founder and medical director of principal psychiatry in New York City. And Dr. Cohen really calls out that the professional organizations do need to be more involved in providing some guidance in this area. And I can understand why the professional organizations are not. That's because many therapists probably also believe in some conspiracy theories.
Katie Vernoy 30:30
Okay, here we go, here's where we're gonna get all of the feedback on the episode.
Curt Widhalm 30:34
Well, and as a professional organization, we know that their first job duty is to make sure that the continuance of the professional organization exists. And if they are alienating their members, that is potentially a drop in membership, and therefore, they don't want to alienate members. So, even being able to wade into this, Dr. Cohen calls for the professional organizations to take more of a stance and guidance, you know, at least use something like, you know, seated grape industry, as an example, we don't need to necessarily go out and address things. But we do need to work on training clinicians on how to recognize when it does progress from seated grapes to harm and potentially identifying those who are most vulnerable to be acting out violently. And it is a continuum and a slippery slope. So call your professional organizations tell them your thoughts on seated grapes. Don't put any context into it, but make seated grapes happen.
Katie Vernoy 31:52
So I want to actually push back on one of the things that you said, as a profession. Is it not important for us to comment on conspiracy theories that are psychologically harmful to the populace?
Curt Widhalm 32:07
Absolutely, we should.
Katie Vernoy 32:09
Okay, so why would you then say that professional organizations shouldn't address that, but should address how therapists
Curt Widhalm 32:16
I'm saying, cuz I'm, I'm picturing the heads of these organizations and what their response is the pearl clutching that they will have in looking at their membership, and giving them an out to be able to walk the line in between what they should be saying and how they can package it nicely to actually start presenting this information.
Katie Vernoy 32:40
So you're trying to get to a place where they would actually do something versus actually commenting on what they really should be doing.
Curt Widhalm 32:47
Exactly, yes. So
Katie Vernoy 32:49
alright, that's fair. Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 32:51
Check out our show notes at MPs G podcast, join our Facebook group, the veteran therapist group, follow us on our social media and continue to drink the modern therapist Kool Aid. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 33:07
Thanks again to our sponsor, trauma therapist network.
Curt Widhalm 33:11
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you can know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There's so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan LCSW WC created trauma therapist network. Trauma therapist network therapist profiles include the types of traumas specialized in population served therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them. Network is more than a directory though it's community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect consults, and network with colleagues around the country.
Katie Vernoy 33:47
Join the growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code Mt. SG 20 at Trauma therapist network.com Once again that's capital MTS G the number 20 at Trauma therapist network.com
Announcer 34:04
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Curt Widhalm 35:49
If you're still listening, the code is 62 160 1600
Therapists Shaming Therapists An interview with Katie Read about therapists shaming each other when they raise their fees or start playing bigger. Curt and Katie talk with Katie about the puritanical culture within the therapist community that leads to group think, public shaming, and milquetoast messaging to mitigate their fear that anything different will be attacked. We look at reasons behind this (jealousy, guilt, shame, and moralism) as well as what therapists can do to step outside of this culture to create more success.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Katie Read, LMFT, Six Figure Flagship Katie takes lessons from her nearly-20 successful years in the field to help clinicians grow...then OUTgrow...their practices.
Immediately upon licensure, Katie was made Director of a large Transitional Aged Youth program in Oakland, CA. Later, she was recruited to Direct one of Sacramento’s largest Wraparound Programs, and from there she moved into the role of Director of Clinical Supervision, personally supervising 40+ interns towards licensure.
Concurrently, Katie had private practices in multiple cities, taught graduate psychology students, and wrote and created therapist training materials.
Katie is also a special needs mom and loves helping other moms tune into their own intuition and lead their best-possible lives by taking the sometimes-scary leap into following what’s best for them, deep down.
She is the creator of:
The Clinician to Coach® Academy,
The Clini-Coach® Certification,
and the Six-Figure Flagship™ Program.
She’s a little bit obsessed with helping therapists get profitable doing the creative, out-of-the-box, authentic work you're called to do!
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists are treating each other * The concept of trolling, piling on, shame * The Article in the Atlantic – New Puritans – and the concept of the illiberal left * How identity plays a role and the group dynamics within therapist Facebook groups * The shaming related to increasing your fees * Katie Read’s origin story as an on the street social work * The value placed on sacrifice and avoiding guilt for the difference in privilege when working with clients who are impoverished * Socially-prescribed perfectionism, self-imposed perfectionism * The fine line about what is acceptable to charge or make as a therapist * Cancel culture and the lack of allowance for errors * Echo chambers, factions, and exclusion * The fear of dissenting opinions * The low context of the internet paired with the high context nature of a therapist’s job * Milquetoast messaging to avoid getting attacked * Dialing down authenticity to fit into what is acceptable * Challenging our financial mindset * Cultural and societal factors that frame us as cheap labor * The seeming requirement for therapists to suffer in order to understand our clients * The reality of therapists as business owners * Therapist guilt for “earning money” * Feminized professions and the expectation of doing things out the goodness of our hearts * Rapidly changing social rules versus entrenchment in what has been * How this identity shift is spilling over into real life * Jealousy, guilt, and shame, and moralism * The best therapists have the worst impostor syndrome * How to navigate when you’re a therapist going against the grain * The importance of every therapist doing their own money mindset work
Our Generous Sponsor: Trauma Therapist Network Trauma is highly prevalent in mental health client populations and people are looking for therapists with specialized training and experience in trauma, but they often don't know where to start.
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There are so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan, LCSW-C created Trauma Therapist Network.
Trauma Therapist Network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work and what they specialize in, so potential clients can find them.
Trauma Therapist Network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in, populations served and therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them.
The Network is more than a directory, though. It's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect, consult and network with colleagues around the country. Join our growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code: MTSG20 at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Katie Read’s program: Six Figure Flagship
Article in the Atlantic – The New Puritans by Anne Applebaum
Relevant Episodes:
Therapist Haters and Trolls
Advocacy in the Wake of Looming Mental Healthcare Workforce Shortages
In it for the Money?
Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset (with Tiffany McLain)
Not Your Typical Psychotherapist (with Ernesto Segismundo)
How to Overcome Impostor Syndrome to leave your Agency Job (with Patrick Casale)
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
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https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by Trauma Therapist Network.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Trauma therapist network is a new resource for anyone who wants to learn about trauma and how it shows up in our lives. This new site has articles, resources and podcasts for learning about trauma and its effects, as well as a directory exclusively for trauma therapists to let people know how they work, and what they specialize in so potential clients can find them. Visit trauma therapist network.com To learn more,
Curt Widhalm 00:27
Listen at the end of the episode for more about the trauma therapist network.
Announcer 00:31
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Kurt Wilhelm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:47
Welcome back modern therapists, this is modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. BLEEP you! This is the podcast where we talk about all things therapists, therapy related, therapist communities. And we are talking about the ways that we treat each other and a lot of this happens in the online groups. You know who you are. And
Katie Read 01:20
But do they?
Curt Widhalm 01:22
I think they do. Well, helping us here in this conversation today coming back to the show. Our good friend Katie Read. So before we before we start shaming the shamers.
Katie Vernoy 01:37
For shame!
Curt Widhalm 01:39
Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're bringing into the world.
Katie Read 01:44
Hi, I'm Katie Read. Thank you for having me back. I missed you guys. We haven't been around here for a while.
Katie Vernoy 01:50
I know!
Katie Read 01:51
Good to be back. Although I did get to see you in person at the conference recently, which was amazing. So anyway, you can find me over at six figure flagship dot com. I do. One of the things that plenty of therapists like to shame, which is encouraging therapists who are creative who had that little spark that maybe someday they want to outgrow the therapist office, I... whispering under my hand here, I help them do that. Lest all the shamers jumped out at us. That's what I do. But I have like you been very active in therapists groups over the last couple years, and been often just shocked by the level of shaming that can happen in these groups. And it's so funny, I don't know about you guys. I've told this to other people, non therapists, like neighbors, friends just being like, Yeah, it's amazing. Those groups, people are astounded to hear that therapists would shame one another like it would never occur to them that therapists would be because they think of us all as being nice and wonderful and accepting and loving and caring and empathic, and all of these things. And I know we all three have had conversations in the background, like why does that fall apart on the internet, and I really do think it's just on the internet. It's not in person. It's just on the internet, but on the internet and therapists group. So not that I have any grand answers for this. But I'm super interested in this conversation today.
Katie Vernoy 03:18
We've talked about this in some ways before, and we'll link to those episodes in the show notes that we've got a therapist, haters and trolls. And there's a couple others, I'll look at them when I'm getting ready to put this together. But to me, I think the biggest thing that I see that that has always been shocking to me is the the piling on, that happens at someone put something out there, it becomes given that that is wrong and bad. And somebody has an opinion that this is wrong and bad. And then there's the defenders, but then there are the piler on-ers, is that is that a word? The people that then cosign on this negative information. And then all of a sudden, it's like the snowball effect. And there's like, hundreds of comments, and you are horrible and all of this stuff. And I think that there is an element of this that I think we do want to call people out when they're doing things that are harmful. I think the the criteria for what is harmful sometimes feels a little bit wiggly to me
Curt Widhalm 04:26
I kind of started looking at this more from just kind of a an academic approach. And what sparked this, for me was an article in The Atlantic called the new Puritans by Anne Applebaum. And it's an incredible article, we'll link to it in the show notes. But it starts to talk about the illiberal left, which many therapists politically identify in kind of this political compass of the left side. And what happens in echo chambers like there pice groups is that it becomes many people coming with a desire for positive social change and social mores are changing that. We've seen this happen not only in society, but in our field over the last 20 years. But what happens seemingly is, we're developing this this collective identity in these groups that becomes part of our own identities and seeing other people acting even slightly different than how we would act ends up becoming almost there's harm to our own self identity that needs to be processed and spoken out against when it comes to things like, hey, I want to raise my fees on my clients by $5 per session.
Katie Read 05:51
I find this one absolutely fascinating because I, I don't think I've ever seen a post go by in a group where a therapist has said, Hey, I'm thinking about raising my fees, and have not gotten at least some very heavy negativity thrown their way. Which is so fascinating to me. Because if you step back and you look at any career on Earth, we assume about every human being in the world, that you will always be on a quest to kind of step up to the next level in your career step up to the next level in your income. This is understood if anyone tells you they've gotten a raise, they've gotten a promotion, you say congrats, that's great. When therapists who are self employed, who have only themselves to answer to they are their own bosses, and when they say it's time for my yearly raise, and I have earned my yearly raise this year, and they attempt to give it to themselves, what do the therapist communities often do? Jump in with really crazy stuff really crazy? Oh, I don't know, I didn't get into this career to make money. I couldn't imagine putting my clients under that kind of strange, just really, really deeply shaming words coming at them. And I find it fascinating. You know, and I'm not exactly sure where it comes from. But it's interesting, because in prepping for this podcast, I was thinking about my early days as an intern and, and I do wonder, probably, at least for me, this was part of it. I spent many years even before I went to grad school, I was doing social work type roles in very, very, very impoverished areas. And then during grad school, I was working with foster kids. And then after grad school, I was an on the street social worker in inner city, Oakland, with teenagers and young adults, most of whom were homeless, or they were sex workers or drug addicts, gang members, like Oh, terrible, really difficult lives, right, like really terrible life situations. And I was dead broke, that job paid next to nothing, it was an internship job. And in a way, coming home to my crappy apartment, where people got mugged right outside in broad daylight and eating my ramen noodles, because that was all I could afford. I didn't have to feel so guilty going into work the next day, because my life was certainly better than my clients lives were at that time. But it was still rough, like things were still rough at my end. And I wonder if I remember at the time, I would say to people, I would say, this is the hardest work you can imagine doing. But if you can do it, you just have to do it. Because these people just need the help. And they need the support. And they need people on the street. And I had this very grand idea of what it was to be an on the street social worker doing that kind of work, and, and staying poor for it. And oh, it took me a long, long time to realize that I had to put the air mask on myself first, you know, like on the plane, like it took me a very long time to come to that change. But I wonder if some part of that for a lot of us does start because I think many of us do start in those types of jobs, those types of internships where you're seeing such poverty, you're seeing such difficult lives and you do feel a guilt around that.
Curt Widhalm 08:57
Even in your story here. Part of what I'm hearing is you lead that off with this is unique to therapists. So you're already framing this as part of therapist identity means that you have to do these certain things. Look at the shame that we put on people who go straight from grad school into private practice, like they are bypassing part of that identity. And, you know, the echoes of the criticisms is, well, that's such a privileged place to come from that you didn't have to go through this with all of these other clients. And a big part of that is in this identity becomes this thing called socially prescribed perfectionism that you must do this because what you're doing reflects on me and in combination with socially prescribed perfectionism comes this self imposed perfectionism that I must act this way. Yeah. And if other people whose identities reflects on the same way as mine And that's not how I see myself doing, I have to deal with that internal conflict, and it's much easier to tear you down than it is for me to wrestle with. All right, you do you and I'll do me and we'll both potentially help out the people that we're best suited to help out with.
Katie Read 10:19
That's so interesting. And it's so true. And I wonder. So like, I'm thinking about the people who I did know from grad school who came from different backgrounds who did go straight into private practice and whatnot. And you do wonder, do they feel any of that guilt? Do they carry any of that with them? Does that bounce off of them that they're like, what I was doing exactly what you just said, Curt, like what I was meant to do, I was helping the people I was meant to help. This is where I'm well suited. It's just interesting.
Katie Vernoy 10:45
And it's, it's something where this idea of perfectionism what what resonated for me was this, it's very thinly defined. And not only have I heard the, the negative backlash around charging a high fee, and and I don't know, necessarily that I've seen a lot of the negative feedback with I'm raising my fee by $5 Next year, but it's anybody that has a premium fee gets roasted. And anyone that talks about charging very little or being on insurance panels, also gets roasted, because you're undervaluing the profession, you're, you're making it harder for me to make money. And so there's this really fine line of what's acceptable,
Katie Read 11:27
Acceptable, huh.
Katie Vernoy 11:28
And so this this perfectionism around, I can't, I can't make too much, but I also can't charge too little. It just it feels very crazy making. And I think this, this notion of we're trying to validate our own identity through making everyone else be like us, or like, what the collective has decided is okay, feels kind of scary.
Curt Widhalm 11:57
And the extension of this goes beyond just, you know, the parent comments in some of these, these groups, that there becomes almost this effort to cancel people across multiple posts, that there seems to be so little room for error, and especially in late, like I said, social mores changing of, you know, a lot of the things that I see is, you know, not doing the emotional work or not doing the education work for other therapists who are potentially asking questions around things like critical race theory and involving, you know, wonderment about communities that they might not have experience with that. While there is validity on both sides is I've seen some of this extension go across, you know, bringing up these kinds of arguments across separate posts across separate days, weeks, even months, that his efforts towards this cancel culture esque type thing that serves to only make this problem even worse, by creating even stronger echo chambers of we're only going to listen to people who think exactly like us. And what ends up happening is we get these factions of, you know, well, here's the group of like minded people who sit over here. And here's the group of like minded people who sit over here, and here's the people who are okay with microwaving fish in the office, and they're okay in their own corner. But then it just makes it to where it's uninviting for anybody to have any kind of a dissenting opinion. Because and this is particular to the internet groups that you brought up. Here at the beginning, Katie, internet culture is very, very low context. And therapists are very, very high context people. This is a sociological phenomenon, that high context is understanding people where they're coming from, you know, we spend years studying how to get the high context of our clients. And we're used to communicating with people in this very, very high context sort of way. And then you get like one paragraph on a Facebook post to be able to try and explain something to somebody else. And it's just this very, really low context like fast moving group of people who kind of opt in and opt out but aren't consistently there. That makes it really enticing to pick on well, you're missing all of these high context things that just it's critical, and it's something that because of internet culture, therapists aren't used to having to receive information in that low context sort of way in embracing how we communicate online. Mind. In other words, we think that we're really smart in some areas of our life, and therefore all areas of our life should be really smart. But the internet is not that place.
Katie Read 15:11
And the internet dumbs us down. Well, it's interesting. And a moment ago, I just lost my train of thought you had said something a moment ago that
Curt Widhalm 15:18
I do that to people.
Katie Vernoy 15:20
Just keep talking, it's
Katie Read 15:22
10 minutes back. There was something I just lost it
Katie Vernoy 15:27
Well, keep thinking because I had something you know, a few minutes back when you were talking about your, your experience as kind of an on the on the streets, social worker and having to overcome that self imposed identity around if I am not so privileged, I don't feel guilty going to work. How did you work to overcome that? Because I think we're looking at being shamed for it. And and you did it within that culture, like I know, that I would imagine you have probably been shamed for for what you do, as you know, a six figure flagship even having that is so money title. So right, having the right so and so actually, how do you how have you gotten through it, I guess.
Katie Read 16:12
Yeah. And I can tell my story, but it's interesting, because you just reminded me of what Curt had said that I had wanted to comment on. Because it's all related. You had to Curt the end. And even Katie had said previously, there's this very narrow band of what kind of therapists are willing to accept as appropriate. And because the echo chambers are loud, and because the pile on culture is intense, within therapists groups, what happens is people are terrified to speak. And so we end up with very very milquetoast messaging. That doesn't challenge that doesn't potentially disagree, we end up with people who only want a message in ways that they will not be attacked for because as we all know, it's very painful and scary. If someone's coming at you online, some stranger online and other people are piling on and everyone would love to avoid ever having that situation. So we dial down what is true, what is authentic, what is important, we dial it down into what we hope will fit this narrow little brass band of appropriateness. And it's interesting like us, for me, it took me years and years. I mean, I eventually went from we eventually moved my husband and I to a different town, I opened up a small private practice. And it's funny, I was one of those therapists, and I was in California, where therapy rates are high. But I was the person where I was charging $90 an hour. And I was the person who set it like this, when a new client came in or called me and said, What's your fee? I went? Well, it's 90. But I can slide I can slide. What do you need, I mean, I can do whatever you need, I can really I get whatever you need, whatever you need, like that was me all the time. Because again, I was still carrying this guilt, about even charging that much and feeling like well, I couldn't even afford to go see me for therapy. So how can I think somebody else's, I was very much in my clients pockets. And what was really interesting was, I had been in this office for a while, you know, I rented my time other people came in and out. And there were several interns in the office, all supervised by this one supervisor. And I was speaking with one of the interns when we were crossing paths one day, and at this point, I had been a licensed therapist. For years, I had worked my way through community mental health up to being a program director, I had taught grad school, I had done all these things. And I was still charging this low rate because of my own internal money issues. And this intern, I don't know how we got on the subject. But she said, Oh, yeah, our supervisor now she was still in grad school. There's a person in her first year of grad school, an intern seeing clients. And she said, Well, our supervisor won't let us start any lower than 125 as our hourly rate, we're not allowed to slide under that they were private pay 125 for the interns. And my mind was blown. That here I was with years of experience behind me years of training behind me. And I it really in that moment hit me I was like I am doing this wrong. I am absolutely doing this wrong. And I need to start working on this. And some of it was working on my money mindset, honestly, for me, doing what I eventually did and wanting to outgrow the office that was motivated by different things like we moved states and then I wasn't licensed for a year while I went through the licensure process in a new state. So my path out of the office and outgrowing the office was sort of organic. It wasn't a pre plan type of thing. It just happened that I moved into coaching and ended up loving it. But within the coaching world, you really really get challenged very quickly on your financial mindset. And you really actually learn very quickly that the norm in the rest of the world is if you bring great value into someone's life, you are well paid for it. And we therapists continually underestimate the great, great, transformative, wildly important value that we bring into people lives. And whether you choose to continue to do it in the context of therapy or to write a book, or to go on a speaking tour to do any of the number of things that therapists can go out in the world, and do, we do by virtue of our passion, our education, all of these things, we bring great value we bring about great transformation in people's lives, and in most of the rest of the world, that would be naturally richly rewarded. But because of sort of the culture, and I honestly think part of it is just the culture of how government even is set up that we need to be able to have cheap labor to go out and work with the people who need help the most. And so many of us, like we said, started off in community mental health in some form, or in schools, which are very underfunded just, we start off as sort of cheap labor. And it's hard to get out of that mindset that we should always remain just cheap labor, or that what we do is not that highly valued in society where, of course, I don't know about you, I remember, every therapist I've had, and I remember them dearly. And they were hugely impactful at those times in my life, and every one of your clients and everybody out there listening. It's the exact same way, you're hugely impactful.
Curt Widhalm 21:14
You know, as I'm listening to this, and going back to that piece by Anne Applebaum, she makes mention of The Scarlet Letter as kind of this this parallel of what's going on with the liberal left. And the thing about this is one of that one of the major themes from the scarlet letter is the the priest who impregnates Hester, I'm forgetting his name right offhand. But he is seen as more virtuous because his sermons have so much empathy, from his own sins that there's almost this parallel what's going on with the groups here that we're seeing of like, we have suffered this injustice. And therefore we're better at what we do in relating to our clients, because we've done this. And especially when it comes to things like privilege and fees in this kind of stuff. It's like, you're, you're not able to relate to your clients as well. Because you haven't done this suffering, and you haven't done this, and therefore, you must suffer in order to be able to be a better therapist.
Katie Read 22:21
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting, isn't it. And so as some of that just coming down, is that just back to that therapist skills, we were talking just today, I had my meeting with my folks in my clinic coach, six figure flagship, and we were talking, there's one therapist, she's putting an unbelievable amount of work into an event that she's producing just probably hundreds of hours of her labor is going into this work. It's a passion project. She's so excited about it. And she came to the group and she said, I'm donating all the proceeds to charity. And I was like,
Katie Vernoy 22:56
Oh, wow.
Katie Read 22:59
And so we really, we took it apart a lot, like we coach through it a lot in the group. And today in our meeting, and I was, like, you know, like part of this here is that we are also business owners. And when you put in hundreds of hours of unpaid labor on something, you actually need to retain at least the majority of your profits, so that you can reinvest them into your own business, so that you can stay afloat, have savings of money for like all the things that we need to do. But really, to me, what I was hearing was therapist skill was I don't want it to look to anyone, like I'm trying to actually make any money. I want it to look like out of the goodness of my heart, I'm putting on this big event for all my fellow therapists to learn and grow. But God forbid someone think I might earn money from doing this. Yeah. And so it's just it was fascinating, because I don't think there's any other profession, where they would even consider for a minute giving every single bit of all this labor, all this unpaid labor straight to charity, without a second thought, maybe with many second thoughts, but feeling like this is what I should do.
Katie Vernoy 24:05
Yeah, yeah, I just I think about teachers, I think about oftentimes nurses, part of it is kind of feminized professions do have this this impact where the majority of the folks in those professions are non male. And so there is an expectation, this is something we should be doing out of the goodness of our hearts. And it seems very mercenary if we would ask for money for it. You know, there are, you know, during the pandemic, these poor teachers, were finally getting recognition for what they actually do for folks' kids. But as soon as you know, even even well into the pandemic I started to get because I work with some teachers. I was started hearing that people were complaining that the teachers weren't doing enough and we're paying their salaries and why aren't they doing enough? And it's like, whoa, you know, or if they go on strike that is just heartless. So it's heartless. And it's kind of like would you work for the salary that they work for? And then we've seen the same with the Kaiser therapists. That was one of the things that happened. We see the same with nurses.
Curt Widhalm 25:11
I mean, our episode, recently where we talked about, you know, let's just throw more Subway sandwiches at therapists,
Katie Vernoy 25:19
workforce shortage at episode that we just put up.
Curt Widhalm 25:21
Yeah, it's just it's throwing more Subway sandwiches at therapists because, you know, how dare you ask for money. And part of this is as a field that our median age is higher than many other fields. And that anytime that we have a field that has rapidly changing social rules to it, it makes it to where, especially with fields that are older, like ours, the entrenchment becomes a lot more rigid. And so I think that that's contributing to part of this, too, is that there's, there's this almost cultural battle that we're facing within our field that is leading to a new identity. And if we're honest about it, we contribute to that a lot here in the podcast, we do call out things that we don't like, including calling out other therapists calling out other therapists. So we do encourage you to let us know your thoughts and feelings on this publicly in any of the therapist groups. But this happens, systemically it happens individually as well. And, you know, I do see this happening outside of the therapist groups, and actually it is spilling over into in real life as well. To hearing this, you know, from some of the practices, hiring people, where I think rightfully, employees entering into the workforce are asking for living wages. And it is a power balance shifts that is leading to things like some of the workforce shortages that we talked about in the other episode.
Katie Read 27:14
Let me ask you, Curt, because as you were talking about sort of the field being a little bit older, in terms of median age and whatnot, I wonder, and I'm curious, just either of your thoughts on this. Do you feel like so let's say you are out there, whatever age you are, really, but you're a therapist, you've kind of become acclimated to the 50k a year therapist average median income, you've kind of surrendered yourself to the fact that you have a very hard job that you can't talk to anyone about, that you are bound by ethics and confidentiality, that you don't get to come home and vent about your day, you have to keep a lot of things bottled up. And at the same time, you know, you're probably worried every month, if you have a $400 car bill this month, it's gonna throw you over the edge, you're not going to have a cushion for that. And then you go into a therapist group, and you see somebody who says, I charge 200 an hour in my area, and I'm doing great and everything's fine. Do you think part of this backlash is just that feeling of threat, that you can't do that or that you haven't chosen that or that you haven't gone to do whatever it is you need to do internally, whatever that sort of money work is that you need to do to actually start charging closer to your worth as an experienced person in the field?
Curt Widhalm 28:30
Absolutely. 100% think that a lot of where we socially prescribe other therapists to be comes from our own anecdotal histories. And our inability is to deal with our own crap when it comes to our relationships to money, our relationships to our professional identities, that and, you know, this even happens in things that I see like in law ethics workshops, that I teach that it's not even just about money thing, but just how much we distance ourselves from other people who make mistakes. You know, if somebody's name shows up in the spider pages, the disciplinary actions, how quickly are to just like, unfriend them or take them off of our LinkedIn connections? Even if it's something that might points closer to us, you know, you see this and things like people who admit to not being caught up on their notes and just kind of the furthering away, you know, these are ethical and legal responsibilities that we have in our profession. And as compassionate people we tend to have very little compassion for the other people in our profession. When they don't do the same kinds of steps that we think that we should be doing or have been doing all along ourselves.
Katie Vernoy 29:52
You're really saying jealousy, guilt and shame.
Curt Widhalm 29:54
Yes!
Katie Vernoy 29:56
Because I think of like the especially I think with the environment around you, Katie, which is like the six figure flagship, it's people outgrowing the office, it's that kind of notion of very successful, you know, I'm going to make a lot of money, I'm going to, I'm going to live a life. And and you don't argue that that comes easily. I saw your post on kind of hustle seasons. And so I appreciate that. But I think that there's this notion that you can work really hard, create something that's more sustainable and make a lot of money. And I think there's a jealousy there, either of the energy that you personally have. I know I'm jealous of your energy. And then there's also the success that people have, I think there's a jealousy there. And so then it's that kind of like, well, I didn't want it anyway, like that. That's wrong, because I don't think I can get it. I'm jealous that you have it. And so I don't really want it. And this, there's all of these moral reasons and moralizing around why I don't want it. I think what you're talking about Curt is kind of this guilt and shame over, I've been doing things wrong. I can't do that, because it goes against these self imposed values and morals that I've put around being a hard worker, that is one of the people and I am not going to I'm not in this for the money. And I'm doing this because it's so valuable. And even thinking about money is so mercenary and wrong. And so there's that guilt and shame of wanting more, but feeling like it goes against either the collective morals or the personal morals. And so to me, it's like if we think about guilt, shame, and jealousy, I mean, the fact that there is so many of those emotions that come out in these public shreddings, in these social media groups or on pages or whatever, like it just it seems strange to me, that therapist would would have those in such huge, huge, impactful ways.
Katie Read 31:54
It's interesting, too, because I was just putting together a workshop where we talked about how typically the best therapists tend to have the worst imposter syndrome. And I think imposter syndrome falls into what you're talking about, and the fact that because we all tend to be pretty intellectual, pretty academic, you know, even those of us who are super heart led, we all still have like our little academic streak. And I think that we all walk around with this belief that if I am not the top researcher in a particular field, I have nothing to say it's very black and white. If I am not the absolute most published person in this particular theory, I should just sit down and shut up, I know nothing, as opposed to being able to see all the gradients, being able to see all of the expertise that everyone has and that you can bring in that could benefit so many more people. If you were brave enough to kind of fight your own imposter syndrome. Stand up, talk about what you know, help even more people that way.
Katie Vernoy 32:55
Yeah.
Katie Read 32:56
But we get very caught in that. Because this will not win a Pulitzer, I might as well not even write it. I might as well not even try it. And I just want what's the point? What's
Katie Vernoy 33:06
and and how dare you, other person that is doing this? How dare you do that? Because I've decided, even though I may have more knowledge than you
Katie Read 33:17
Yes,
Katie Vernoy 33:17
that I'm not good enough to speak on it. So how dare you!
Katie Read 33:20
How dare you? Exactly. Oh, isn't that so true. And I do think this is what we see play out in therapists groups. And I do think it's terribly sad, because at the end of the day, to me, I always think the lay public are the only losers here. Because when you choose to not speak out, when you choose to not share what you know, when you choose to not be open and vulnerable, and who you are, and say, I know I might not be the world renowned expert on XYZ. But let me tell you a little bit about what I do know, because you might think it's interesting. And I think the thing a lot of therapists don't realize because we're sort of taught to write dissertation style for everything is that the average person doesn't want that. They do want the little tidbit. They do want the little micro snippet that you pulled from an interesting article you read that you couldn't get out of your mind yesterday, share that that's what they want to because it'll get into their head too and it'll help them in their life just like it helps you they don't need your full scope dissertation on anything.
Katie Vernoy 34:19
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 34:20
So is the answer and stop hanging out with other therapists?
Katie Read 34:29
I don't know let's vote should we go around and vote? I you know it's interesting though, you I definitely think it's something that we talk about in our group is that we talked about how when you even when I when I first started doing the most basic stuff, offering like copywriting for therapists offering basic marketing for therapists in this tiny little way like putting a post on Facebook Hey, need help with your copywriting? You know, these tiny little ways? I had rude people I had predicted people I know going well that's never gonna go anywhere. What are you even doing? Why are you doing that? And so I just want all my students like any time, you are going against the grain a little bit breaking the mold a little bit of what it means to be a helping professional, because what I believe at the end of the day is what you call it doesn't matter as much as what you're actually doing. Are you out there helping people in some form? Is your internal calling to be out there helping people in some form? Great, are you doing it? If you are, and if you feel good and authentic, and you know that you are living out your calling that you are truly helping people in some form? Does it matter if you call it therapy today, and maybe tomorrow, it's consulting, and you have consulting clients, and maybe the next day you build an online course where you help people and maybe you go speak at a school the next day, doesn't matter what form it's in, that you're helping people as long as you are authentically helping people what you were called to do, does the name matter? So you can hang out with a therapist like that. Kurt,
Katie Vernoy 36:00
I hear you saying that hanging out with therapists who have that broader perspective that aren't so tied into the Puritan culture is probably helpful for folks that are really coming, that are pushing against the grain in some way. And and I really resonate with that, because I think that's, that's why we found each other and
Katie Read 36:18
That's what you've done
Katie Vernoy 36:22
We've been trying, you know, we don't we don't avoid the purity culture, we just try to push back against it. But I think it's, it's something where when you're really trying to step out and help people in a bigger way, it is, it is important that you find the right people to spend time with because you can get tamped down by purity culture,
Katie Read 36:40
You can. Well, and I should say this, like for a lot of us, I know for me, when I was I think it is important for therapists to do money work on ourselves, go read the self help books, go, you know, sign up with Tiffany...
Curt Widhalm 36:53
GO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!
Katie Read 36:58
I think it's important to do that. And I think it's important to hang out with people who get it and have done it. And I think for all of us to, there is a way that you can feel good about what you charge and feel good about what you give back. And that that is going to be different for everyone, whether it's that you do a couple free or cheap sessions every single week, or you give a certain amount to charity every year, like whatever that looks like for you. You can still set this up in a way where you're not going to feel like a greedy bastard, for earning a good living where you still know that you are I mean, for me, when I started outgrowing the office, honestly, my entire motivation was security. My husband worked at a large multinational corporation that was doing layoffs, rolling layoffs every single month. And every single month, it felt like we were going to be any minute we were going to be homeless because he was going to get laid off. And that was the bread and butter of the family. And what then and all I really wanted was some security. And so that drove me and I was like I said we had moved states. And so I didn't have a license in my new state. I couldn't just go open a therapy office, it drove me to get creative and do something else. But I think when your motivation comes from that, like there's, I don't know, a lot of therapists who are like, I'm gonna go get rich so that I can have seven maaser body it's like, it's just not who we are, you know, like, that's just not what we're doing here.
Katie Vernoy 38:16
Well, we do have to end here, but but I think we also if there is a therapist that wants to get ready to get seven Montserrado for months, seven months. Go for it do. So before we close up, where can people find you?
Katie Read 38:30
Six Figure flagship.com is the main program that we run right now it's an application only program for mental health therapists who do want to outgrow the office, that is the best place to find me. And otherwise, I'll just be kind of hanging out with you guys.
Katie Vernoy 38:44
I love it. Always again, it
Curt Widhalm 38:47
We will include a link to Katie's websites in our show notes. You can find those over at MTS g podcast.com. And follow us on our social media join our Facebook groups modern therapists group and
Katie Read 39:01
Or we will shame you.
Curt Widhalm 39:03
we actually have a really good group that seems to
Katie Read 39:08
No I said we will shame them for not joining it, we find them.
Curt Widhalm 39:14
Some we will post those links and until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy And Katie Read.
Katie Vernoy 39:20
Thanks again to our sponsor, Trauma Therapist Network.
Curt Widhalm 39:24
If you've ever looked for a trauma therapist, you can know it can be hard to discern who knows what and whether or not they're the right fit for you. There's so many types of trauma and so many different ways to heal. That's why Laura Reagan LCSW WC created trauma therapist network. Trauma therapist network therapist profiles include the types of trauma specialized in population served therapy methods used, making it easier for potential clients to find the right therapist who can help them. Network is more than a directory though it's a community. All members are invited to attend community meetings to connect consults and network with colleagues around the country.
Katie Vernoy 40:01
Join the growing community of trauma therapists and get 20% off your first month using the promo code MTSG20. At trauma therapist network.com Once again that's capital MTSG, the number 20 at Trauma therapist network.com
Announcer 40:17
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Advocacy in the Wake of Looming Mental Healthcare Workforce Shortages Curt and Katie chat about the looming (and current) mental health workforce shortages. We talk about the exodus of mental health providers, legislation and proposed bills that seek to address these shortages, and what modern therapists can do to advocate for the needed changes. We also talk about inadequate or harmful strategies (like cheering, scholarships, and subway sandwiches) that are often implemented by agencies and legislatures. We provide individual and collective calls to action.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Recent data that shows that there will be huge workforce shortages in coming years * The difficulty for folks in accessing mental health services in all sectors * The reasons that mental health workers are leaving the profession * High caseloads, higher acuity * Systemic burnout, jaded supervisors * The inadequate “support” of mental health workers with subway sandwiches, cheering heroes * Legislation that has gone through to support healthcare workers in receiving mental health * Legislation that funds hiring more workers * Bills addressing scholarships to increase folks going to school for mental health * The problem with scholarship bills versus loan forgiveness bills * Bills working to decrease wait times for those seeking services * Creating and filling in mental health treatment needs with paraprofessionals, peer counselors * Navigating funding and worker shortages with new treatment planning * The challenge in “steeling our hearts” to make choices in how we work and who we work for * Both individual and systemic action that we can take to address these issues * A request for the National Guard to come in and staff residential treatment centers * The importance of taking action now to get involved in legislative advocacy
Our Generous Sponsor: Turning Point Turning Point is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals. They'll help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances, like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debt and evaluating big purchases, like your first home.
And because they specialize in serving therapists in private practice, they'll help you navigate the finances of your practice, as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources. They'll even help you consider strategies like the S-Corp tax election.
Visit turningpointHQ.com to learn more and enter the promo code Modern Therapist for 30% off their Quick Start Coaching package.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Mercer Report on Major Shortages of Healthcare Workers
Senate Passes Legislation on Mental Health for Health Care Professionals
Rand Report on Transforming the US Mental Healthcare System
CA Bill would decrease wait times for mental health services
Opinion: Exodus of mental health workers needs state response
Send legislative bills to curt@therapyreimagined.com to get ideas on advocacy and responses.
Relevant Episodes:
Why Therapists Quit
Why Therapists Quit Part 2
The Return of Why Therapists Quit
Bilingual Supervision
The Burnout System
Gaslighting Therapists
Waiving Goodbye to Telehealth Progress
Kaiser Permanente Strikes Episodes:
Modern Therapists Strike Back
Special Episode: Striking for the Future of Mental Healthcare
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of modern therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by turning point
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Turning Point financial life planning helps therapists confidently navigate every aspect of their financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing Tax Management and student loans. Visit Turning Point hq.com. To learn more and enter the promo code modern therapist for 30% off their quickstart coaching package.
Curt Widhalm 00:24
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:27
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:43
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists that looks at uncomfortable things in our profession. And this is another one of those episodes that does that. And we are talking about the already developed but looming and worsening mental health workforce shortage across America. And this actually, some of the stuff that we're going to talk about today also has impact worldwide. So for our international listeners as well, we're gonna talk about YouTube. But there's been this little thing called COVID-19 pandemic. And those of us in the know, before the pandemic knew that Mental Health Access was not great in pretty much all parts of the world. And we follow along workforce issues and work with our legislature and the US government on some access issues in our advocacy efforts, and continue to have an interest in continue to provide advocacy on this. And as we're looking at the next few years, it's going to get worse, that we are seeing a exodus of workers from the mental health workforce, we are seeing a lot of reports from research organizations, we can talk about some things out of research group called Mercer and their reports that things are looking bad in the next five years as far as mental health workers that there is a exodus of workers here, Katie and I have talked before about how hard it is to become even eligible for some of these positions. And it's going to get a whole lot worse,
Katie Vernoy 02:54
paired with what people were, colloquially calling a mental health pandemic. You know, the second, the second wave of pandemic is a mental health pandemic. And I think, for me, I'm actually seeing this in my own practice, I open for new clients, and I'm getting calls from folks who can't find someone who takes their insurance, who are not getting calls back. I mean, there are already issues with folks being able to access mental health treatment when they want it. And we've also got this worker Exodus. And I think the the broad strokes of this, I think, are that there are, at least locally, you know, for me, I don't know that many people that take insurance, you know, many people have gotten off insurance panels, I'm getting off insurance panels because of the, what they pay. And I think it's something where people want to use their insurance, people also, at times need higher levels of care. And those beds are not there. I was reading an article out of Colorado where there there are folks who are staying in I think solitary confinement because they can't get into mental health facilities when they've been determined that that's the appropriate type of incarceration. Not that that's kind of what we're talking about today. But but there are so few mental health workers across the breadth and depth of our field, that people are not getting the services that they need. And there are big impacts on our community. So this is already happening. But it's it's something where we are also leaving the profession, and that's pretty terrifying.
Curt Widhalm 04:34
And we've been talking about this for a while we had a episode earlier this year on why therapists quit. We had several follow up episodes to it. But in looking at the trends, and I'm looking at the Mercer report here, we are looking at some major mental health shortage of workers. The Mercer report talks About that they're expecting 400,000 mental health workers will leave the occupation entirely over the next five years. And that's going to be leaving mostly public mental health employers with a shortage of 510,000 spots us nationwide. Getting into the reasons why we've covered in a number of other episodes, super high case loads, you know, large case loads, the very quick return to business as normal in a lot of situations. And this is echoed, really largely at the time of this recording I'm seeing early reports of this is really impacting places like college counseling centers that are a month into the new year to two months into the new academic year by the time that this episode drops, and are seeing increases from last year's already increased rates of seeking services by over 20% year over year. So they are facing increased calls for services with a drop in available workers to come in and provide services. The experience of these workers is also that the crises that are coming in are bigger and more severe than they have been in the past. So we're getting this perfect storm of more need higher need and fewer people to do it. And most people in our profession, as caregivers tends to want to help out but it does lead to just this really systemic burnout problem. That is easier for a lot of people to go and not work in this profession. Because it is just so taxing at this point.
Katie Vernoy 06:57
Yeah, I think it's something where, when I've had in the past, short staffing, you know, whether I was a mental health provider or, or a supervisor or manager, what we by and large do is take more cases, do more work, just try to keep going, you know, everybody needs us. We can't say no, it's it's really hard. It's all of those things. I was thinking I was picturing Adriana, you know, when she came and talked on our episode around the same thing happening for bilingual clinicians. But just this idea of I can't say no, they need us and so that this these gigantic case loads that are both systemically problematic, but also personally problematic because there's just no way to keep that pace up. And so folks burn out and leave really early. But even if they make it through I mean, we've we've had this this conversation and the burnout machine and you know, so we won't go too far into this but it's just it's such a bad situation where not only are the clinicians, overworked burned out, usually not getting paid much more because oftentimes the cuts happen there. And their supervisors and managers have broken away from the day to day grind of seeing huge case loads, but are jaded and not necessarily the support that those clinicians need. And so they might as well have left the profession.
Curt Widhalm 08:24
And we specifically talked about this in our gaslighting therapists episode did at the beginning of the pandemic and there's a part of me that really likes having been right but there's also a part of me that is like, we knew this was coming and and so frustrated just in this was so predictable that yeah, this is just Ah,
Katie Vernoy 09:00
yeah,
Curt Widhalm 09:02
Calm down.
Katie Vernoy 09:06
Oh, go ahead.
Curt Widhalm 09:07
But this is where we haven't changed the way that we take care of the workers. I mean, maybe what we've changed is given them a second subway sandwich party each month and
Katie Vernoy 09:19
Or like cheering WOO HOOO! way to go thank you heroes
Curt Widhalm 09:23
some sort of banner that that promotes You are a hero. But But I mean, it's it's stuff like this and it's stuff like, okay, we are seeing some of this response in legislation. There's a bill was passed by both houses of the US government. Moving on, will link to it in the show notes, but as a bill written by Senator Tim Kaine to promote and look into interventions for preventing burnout. in mental health and healthcare workers, and this is widely celebrated is Alright, we're going to be getting to the problem of why so many people are leaving the profession, how can we address this to keep people in. And these funding bills are continuing to miss the point in looking at this bill, my first response was, oh, we're gonna blame the individual mental health practitioners and the healthcare workers. The bill is literally about promoting mental health care and looking for ways to promote resiliency. And I know that the $30 million that is being spent to investigate this is going to result in do more yoga and have thought about therapy. As mental health workers, we know that we need to go to therapy, it's not dealing with all of the access issues, it's not dealing with all of the giant caseload issues. It's not being able to have good workplace practices. It's no set Principal Skinner meme of like, is it that's the problem? No, it's the workers. They're misinformed, that is just going to continue to reinforce this as a problem. And my big bold prediction is that in a couple of years, they're gonna say, well, we spent $30 million on it, and it didn't fix anything. So we probably don't need to invest in mental health workforce issues for a while. Hmm.
Katie Vernoy 11:33
Yeah, I think one of my I'm going to put this on my to do list right now is figuring out if that does go through, is there a way for mental health providers to actually get on task forces and those types of things? Because I think there's, there are possibilities, if there's money going toward it, it has not been decided current, let me be a little Pollyanna for a second and then decided that's not been decided. And maybe if our modern therapists across the country, go and try to get into these committees and at these tables and talk about what you were just saying, as well as different payment structures, and just like, just drop the RAND report right in front of them and say,
Curt Widhalm 12:11
That's just it! They're paying for more investigations to end up with things that are already in existence?
Katie Vernoy 12:20
Yeah, well, alright,
Curt Widhalm 12:23
we'll have a call to action about what we can do with that next step with the way that grant money is going with Health and Human Services. Maybe not today, follow us on our social media, and we'll figure it out, we'll figure out exactly who needs to be called on that. Now, some of these other bills that I'm seeing, they do provide for money for hiring more workers, General Manager, those are good.
Katie Vernoy 12:49
Yeah, let's hire more workers, give them some money, give them give them money and and autonomy, that's probably not happening, but give them give them money.
Curt Widhalm 12:58
Now, there's other bills to address behavioral healthcare work shortages. This also goes to other health care workers. They have their own podcast. We're talking about behavioral healthcare workers here. There are other bills that are addressed towards scholarships for improving access in particularly like rural areas. But with telehealth, I'm seeing a lot of these just in general, like let's get more people into school to be licensed for these positions. And these, in my opinion, are generally misguided and bad bills.
Katie Vernoy 13:33
And scholarships are bad
Curt Widhalm 13:35
Scholarships don't address the problem and actually may end up increasing the problem.
Katie Vernoy 13:43
Because why did they increase the problems? My friend this is, it seems like a lot of a lot of people I know they got these scholarships, and to help them get through.
Curt Widhalm 13:53
scholarship money tends to increase the overall cost of tuition and expenses that universities charge free money that's available for universities to take in, the more that it raises the cost for all students who don't get the scholarships. Because if the tuition can go up, because it's being covered by somebody else, this actually then ends up creating barriers for people who maybe, you know, not qualifying for the scholarships, still not able to pay for school, they end up taking out large loans. Now, what I'm saying is, this scholarship bills should be directed towards loan forgiveness, as opposed to paying for tuition, same dollar amounts. But if you are aware of anything, start talking with your legislators about how this money actually can impact the workforce as opposed to just filling some University's endowment fund a little bit more or being able to get three Subway sandwiches in student appreciation. We're just going to have an economy of Subway sandwiches. That's that's the way we're talking about this.
Katie Vernoy 15:10
So so we can try to increase the workforce by either hiring people somehow making education cost less. There's there's another bill that I saw, and I think there's one in California right now. But there's a lot of them, I think, across the country that I'm sure are happening, but it's working to decrease wait times for clients, patients seeking services. And on the face of it, this is potentially bad, because then there's a legislative, potentially legal responsibility for mental health providers to take more clients more quickly. However, this is the part that I think is really interesting. And this is where I think there's a challenge for us. If insurance panels cannot keep clinicians in their in their roles, and cannot keep up with these wait times. I'm wondering what happens if we don't jump to this action here? Am I getting into cartel territory?
Curt Widhalm 16:14
No, I don't think you are, because on one
Katie Vernoy 16:17
The Cardigan Cartel is taking this on!
Curt Widhalm 16:21
On one hand, the history of a lot of these insurance companies is whatever fines that they end up paying, are going to be probably cheaper than what they would have paid out in services anyway. And we've talked about this and things like the the episodes on the Kaiser Permanente strikes in the past, but these are billion dollar companies. fines to them are just, you know, shifting some numbers over from profit margins. It doesn't. These things, these bills like this are really well intended, but they don't address workforce shortages either. Yeah, and potentially even gives some of these insurance companies the opportunities for having a defense of, there's no workers for us to actually hire to shorten these labor times. which then leads to what has also traditionally happened in the workforce, which is that, well, this seems like a great time for mental health professionals too heavy, really good impact on legislation. Traditionally, worker shortages have been addressed by creating or filling in with more paraprofessionals. Now that if the really high barrier to entry positions are going to need a longer pipeline, it's being able to provide things like peer counseling services, peer support specialists, and, well, those are good, it's not something that addresses the specific problems that we're facing as licensees or for our pre licensed listeners on the pathway to being licensed. All the more reason for you to be involved with advocacy to address the specific issues. But my, you know, not Pollyanna, like, Debbie Downer piece of this hair is in unless you really take action right now, in all of the free time. And with all of that not burnt out energy that you have. History suggests that without really good action on this, we're not going to get the very needed changes that we've identified 1015 years ago, that have all come to a head here and will likely come to a head at some other position again, in the future. We need the action now to continue to call legislators to be involved in the bill writing process. So that way, it can be better. Otherwise, it's going to be filled in by paraprofessionals. And continuing to just replicate the same problems that we're seeing in our workforce system.
Katie Vernoy 19:10
There's there's a few things that you're saying that i i agree with, but I also think that they don't have all the pieces to it. And so speaking to my experience with some of these public mental health contracts and those types of things, when there is a financial shortage, so they're the funding goes away, because you know, and around near and around 2008, when, you know, the great recession began, there was a lot of funding that went away for mental health services. And so there were really creative ways that folks added some of these positions. So there was paraprofessionals case managers, there was different types of codes that could be used at or slightly lower rates. And there was also this huge push for evidence based practices to you know, kind of create these different funding streams and kind of pull money from here and There. And what I really saw is that there was this combination of how do we make this cost less? And how do we take care of people with a lower cost. And with, you know, there wasn't a workforce shortage at that time, I don't think I feel like there's always a little bit of a workforce shortage and public mental health. But that's a whole other conversation. But it's one of those things where there was, there wasn't money to pay people. And so they did create these positions. But since that time, and I think this, this is accounted for in the RAND report, as well, there's been a real efficacy seen with these multidisciplinary teams. So I don't want to say like, hey, let's get out and make sure that we get to keep all the work, because I don't know that that's necessarily what we need to do, I think we need to make sure that the work that we're doing, suits our expertise and suits, what is needed. But I think, at that time, there was creativity that was both kind of mercenary, as well as actually improving mental health care. So I don't think it's black or white, like, Hey, this is just because of a workforce shortage that we need to bring in people who have different qualifications. I also think, and this is very much aligned in what you were saying that there is a tendency to make do because it's not a nameless, faceless mental health problem. It's this client and that client and this group in that group. And I think, when we are looking to make a difference right now, I think there's looking at how do I steal my heart against wanting to solve this systemic problem myself. And that is both in how we how we run our practices, but it also can be in where we get employment, when a when an agency gets a contract. So they get let's say, they get a $500,000 contract, to provide services, if they cannot fulfill it, they they lose the money. And so for public mental health providers, they actually need to say stay staffed. And we can actually make a difference in who gets to keep their money by making sure we're very diligent in where we go to get employed, and where we stay employed and where we do the work. And so there there's there is I feel like there is an element of us choosing whether or not large app companies gets our employment, whether there's, you know, public mental health organizations that don't that do shady work, whether they get our employment, you know, like, we do have a value there beyond like insurance companies and their gigantic war chests being able to fight against some of these things. So maybe that was all over the place. But I think it's something where I don't want to say like, Hey, we can only do legislation, because unless we have power in and how we choose to do our work. I think there's not going to be change anyway.
Curt Widhalm 23:19
You're talking about individual issues here. While there's also such big systemic issues that do need the focus, and well, I think that there's a lot of individual efforts that we can make in our own practices, that it almost just kind of ignores the problem. I'm looking at an opinion piece in the Oregonian from September. And this was penned by Heather Jeffries, Executive Director of the Oregon Council on behavioral health. Cheryl Ramirez, Executive Director of the Association of Oregon mental health programs, and rice bowl and director of the Oregon Alliance. And their public call includes some things that very much speak to this kind of stuff, increasing funding to recruit and retain staff, reducing administrative burden. Those things are great, providing cash supports for organizations struggling with the financial impacts of increased costs and insufficient revenue. Fantastic. Publicly recognize and appreciate the workforce, throw more Subway sandwiches at them, maybe misses the point. Yeah, but the one that stands out to me is that they are asking the National Guard to be deployed to staff residential facilities. Hmm. We are in such a crisis, that the heads of behavioral workforce associations are coming together and saying we need people who Have nothing as far as training to be called in by the government to come and provide staffing here. And I point all of this out because we feel an individual responsibility to take some of these steps ourselves. There is only so much that each one of us can do that really needs to be able to address this, especially as a lot of these legislative waivers are ending and not, you know, being progressed things like, you know, telehealth supervision waivers that are, you know, going to be gone at the end of October in California where Katie and I practice but in this lurch where we talked about this in our in our most recent episode with Ben Caldwell is due to the legislative process, there is going to be systemic barriers, that rather than expanding some of this energy more for us to help the one or two or five more people on our caseload that we can take on to have a greater impact, spend those one or two or five hours where this can actually impact 1000s of people in a much better way. Even if it means looking more for long term changes in short term changes right now,
Katie Vernoy 26:32
I want to do a yes, and because I think it is hard, and we'll do some of the legwork here. This is what we've been talking about with not focusing in on a conference this year, we will do some legwork. And we will try to help have some specific guidance on how we make some impacts here on legislation, policy, that kind of stuff. But I think we also need to be very conscious about the choices we make collectively and individually on where we get hired where we do our work, what we charge, because if there is a path to status quo, the legislative efforts won't go through. Right. And so we have to push back against the status quo of poor insurance reimbursements ridiculous, or bureaucratic burdens on organizations, like we need to push back on those things, individually and collectively, or it doesn't matter how many of us go in, there's, you know, we're a small workforce, kind of an in comparison to some of these gigantic, you know, other types of organ, you know, profession. So, all of us just saying, like, I'm going to take two or three fewer clients and going and fighting on the hill is not going to necessarily be sufficient, I think we need to do both.
Curt Widhalm 27:56
We do need to do both, right? It's, it's like the gaslighting episode where it's like, this is stuff that is predictable that legislative changes are gonna be five, six years from now, where it's like we, we told you, so stop, stop complaining about stuff five or six years from now, because the call for action is right now. Legislators know that mental health needs to be addressed. What they don't know is what needs to be addressed in mental health. And that's where that call to action is. And I know in some of my early online conversations, when I point these things out, the response is, well, this is at least addressing the short term thing that's good enough. And right now, having been involved in advocacy for as long as we have addressing good enough for right now does not change the problems that are going to be way bigger five years from now. And I agree. And this is really where it's giving up some of our short term action that, you know, still may not be kind of our perfect sort of answers to everything. I mean, we do have several more decades of podcasts that we need to make. But we do need to actually address some of our problems in in our systemic part of our profession, and get this stuff off the ground. We have been doing some of the legwork on we will organize some of this stuff. We encourage you to start looking at what bills are going to be written in your respective jurisdictions. Send them to us send them to me, curt@therapyreimagined.com, c u r t at therapy reimagined.com. I'll give you at least you know some ideas of things to start talking with your legislators about and if your legislators aren't reading Mental Health stuff be calling their offices and saying, what are you doing to address mental health stuff in our profession, in our state in our in our country? Because the stuff that is being written is really what
Katie Vernoy 30:15
Subway Sandwiches
Curt Widhalm 30:16
it's Subway sandwiches. So thank you for giving me something so we don't have it explicit on this episode.
Katie Vernoy 30:25
I think we're in agreement, I think both of us just have a different take on it and and what can be done more readily. You are very adept at the advocacy at the legislative level. And I think that is something where we need to, we all need to get better at it. And we need to be at some of these tables, we need to be talking to our legislators. I 100% agree. I think if we are working for places who are exploiting us, at the same time, we are undermining our efforts. So that's all I'm saying.
Curt Widhalm 30:55
Okay, I agree with that.
Katie Vernoy 30:58
Overall, you know, kind of summarize in the call to action is really assess where you are in this in this time, in this really pivotal time. For our profession, are you working in a way that supports you and the work that you want to do? Have you created bandwidth so at the same time, you can advocate and make changes at the larger scale so that you're both supporting yourself standing by your principles and how you are going to work and pushing for larger systemic change.
Curt Widhalm 31:42
Be in touch with us, follow our social media. Take those Subway sandwiches and tell your supervisors where to put them. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 31:55
Thanks again to our sponsor Turning Point
Curt Widhalm 31:58
we wanted to tell you a little bit more about our sponsor turning points. Turning Points is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals to help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debts and evaluating big purchases, like your first home. And because they specialize in serving therapists and private practice, so help you navigate the finances of your practice as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources. They'll even help you consider strategies like S corp tax collection,
Katie Vernoy 32:35
And for listeners of MTSG you'll receive 30% off the price of their quickstart coaching intensive just enter promo code modern therapist when signing up. And don't forget to visit TurningPointhq.com to download your free finance quickstart guide for therapists.
Announcer 32:52
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Waiving Goodbye to Telehealth Progress An interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT about the impacts of rolling back the covid telehealth waivers. Curt and Katie talk with Ben about how the expiration of emergency orders will impact the profession. As a case study, we talk through how the California professional boards and associations are navigating these challenges, including looking at disciplinary action that has caused alarm (although we don’t think it should). We also talk about calls to action to get involved now, so you can shape future policy on telehealth, tele-supervision, and remote work.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT Dr. Benjamin Caldwell, PsyD is a California Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (#42723) and the Continuing Education Director for SimplePractice Learning. He currently serves as adjunct faculty for California State University Northridge in Los Angeles. He has taught at the graduate level for more than 15 years, primarily in Law and Ethics, and has written and trained extensively on ethical applications in mental health care. In addition to serving a three-year term on the AAMFT Ethics Committee, Dr. Caldwell served as the Chair of the Legislative and Advocacy Committee for AAMFT-California for 10 years. He served as Editor for the User’s Guide to the 2015 AAMFT Code of Ethics and is the author for several books, including Saving Psychotherapy and Basics of California Law for LMFTS, LPCCs, and LCSWs.
In this episode we talk about: * As a case study: the California Board of Behavioral Sciences rolling back covid waivers and losing the progress made during the pandemic * The emergency orders - covid waivers - that are expiring related to telehealth, tele-supervision * The specifics of remote supervision when emergency orders are rescinded. Looking at permanent legislation concerns as well as the best-case timeline for when remote supervision can come back * The concerns about moving backward and losing all progress made during the pandemic related to electronic and telehealth efforts * The short-sightedness of requiring an in-person meeting when starting telehealth or tele-supervision * Disciplinary action case regarding remote supervision and a prelicensed individual working from home – but there’s so much more nuance than that * Current legislation related to where mental health employees can work (which is actually quite flexible in CA) * Equity and access issues related to not allowing clinicians to provide mental health from home * On-going responsibilities for supervisors to ensure confidentiality and data security * The requirements that supervisors have regardless of where supervisees are working * Calls to Action to attend Board meetings for your licensing board, so you can be informed and help to shape future policy.
Our Generous Sponsor: Turning Point Turning Point is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals. They'll help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances, like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debt and evaluating big purchases, like your first home.
And because they specialize in serving therapists in private practice, they'll help you navigate the finances of your practice, as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources. They'll even help you consider strategies like the S-Corp tax election.
Visit turningpointHQ.com to learn more and enter the promo code Modern Therapist for 30% off their Quick Start Coaching package.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
SimplePractice Learning
Motivo’s tool regarding rules for tele-supervision in all 50 states
CA Board of Behavioral Sciences Covid Information
Relevant Episodes:
Covid-19 Legal and Ethical Updates
Post Pandemic Practice
Noteworthy Documentation
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Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide is brought to you by Turning Point
Katie Vernoy 00:03
Turning Point Financial Life Planning helps therapists confidently navigate every aspect of their financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing Tax Management and student loans. Visit Turning Point hq.com. To learn more and enter the promo code modern therapist for 30% off their quickstart coaching package.
Curt Widhalm 00:24
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:27
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Kurt Wilhelm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:43
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapy therapists for therapists. by - I pause here because I don't know if we can call today's guest still a therapist he's but he is not.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 01:04
How dare you Curt!
Curt Widhalm 01:06
We are once again joined by Dr. Ben Caldwell, a longtime friend of the show and returning for like somewhere around his fourth appearance. But talking to us today about some stuff going on in the California Board of behavioral sciences and their attempts to go back to the Dark Ages, in some some legislation that they're crafting. This is important for all of our listeners, because in preparing for this episodes, I asked them is this just where licensing boards are creating solutions to problems that don't exist? But let's allow Ben to introduce himself.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 01:50
It's always good to be with you both. I'm Ben Caldwell, I'm the Education Director for simple practice learning and I am in point of fact a California licensed MFT.
Katie Vernoy 02:02
Yeah ....you two.
Curt Widhalm 02:06
So at the core of this is a subcommittee meeting which these are fantastic meetings, if you've ever seen TV shows like Parks and Rec, where they're open meetings for the government discusses things and people are allowed to show up. And many of these meetings are kind of lackluster as far as entertainment value. But important stuff happens at them. And recent telehealth subcommittee meeting of the California BBs happened here a couple of weeks ago. And Dr. Caldwell was there and relayed some information of some discussions as far as with COVID restrictions changing and some stories that we're going to share in this episode today that are going to illustrate why this is important enough for us to dedicate an episode to what should hopefully have been a rather boring meeting.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 03:06
Yeah, those those meetings are they are not compelling television. I'll put it that way. But it is important for us to be involved and aware of what's happening there. Because that that is how the proverbial sausage gets made when it comes to the policies that ultimately impact our work and can move us forward, backward or sideways kind of depending on what gets done. licensing boards generally around the country. They have open meetings and their their public meetings, anybody can show up anybody can be heard. And in general, I think boards are actually pretty responsive to the questions needs and desires of those people who do show up. It's just that very, very few people do. You know the BBS governs now more than 100,000, licensees and registrants across it's different license and registration types in California. And most of these meetings, there's five or 10, licensees are registered to actually show up, even if it means that the meetings are going to take longer, and there's going to be a little more argument on both sides. It's probably better for more people to be at those meetings and be heard and have some influence on the process.
Katie Vernoy 04:17
So I think this is a point of advocacy. And so I think one of the calls to action I'll just put it out right now is if you are a registrant or a licensee in a state, but especially California, since that's where we're talking about, like, go to some of these meetings or at least understand what's happening at these meetings so that if you want to make a statement you can but to frame this a little bit, I guess I am hearing that in this meeting that there are COVID waivers that were coming to a close that people have a response to There was also some ideas around telehealth and tele supervision. So So what is it actually that we're talking about? What should people be paying attention to right now as covered waivers are coming to a close.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 05:04
So, across the country, there have been emergency orders that were put into place around the beginning of the pandemic. That allowed for things like the increased use of Interstate practice, that allowed for increased use of telehealth with with less restriction. And that allowed for some other kinds of intended to be temporary changes that made it easier for us to engage in continuity of care, as everybody was stuck at home. Where we are now is that a lot of those emergency orders either have expired, or are going to be expiring in the relatively near term. Now California has hung on to a lot of those emergency orders and waivers longer than some other states have. But even in California, the waivers that have been issued by the Department of Consumer Affairs throughout the pandemic. Those are it sounds like it kind of in the process of winding down. And one of those waivers that has been really attention getting in California is the waiver that allows associates in private practice settings, to engage in online video supervision. If you go pre pandemic, can you look at sort of the the normal California law, video based supervision is only allowed for associates in nonprofit and other what the law calls exempt settings. Private Practice doesn't typically allow it. There was this waiver put into place at the beginning of COVID to allow for video based supervision in private practice. That waiver has been extended 60 days at a time throughout the pandemic. And the current extension of that waiver is set to expire at the end of October. I know that camped and others are continuing to advocate for additional extensions to that waiver. But the Department of Consumer Affairs ultimately makes the decision and they it sounds like had a meeting with some of their boards and bureaus. And what the BBs said in the most recent telehealth committee meeting was that it is and I wrote this down because it the language struck me quote, very highly unlikely, unquote, that there will be a further extension of that waiver.
Curt Widhalm 07:28
So I am aware of some efforts towards legislation to make that piece more permanent. And assuming that there's no substantial opposition to it. Like that would go into effect in 2023, based on at the earliest based on the way that California's legislative system works.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 07:50
Correct. That was one of the things that was actively discussed in that telehealth committee meeting. And they talked about kind of what the policy should be on an ongoing basis for allowing remote supervision across all work settings. I think there's general consensus that remote supervision should be allowed across all work settings. But there is this anxiety. And I keep asking folks for hard evidence to back it up. But I have yet to see any not say it doesn't exist. But I haven't seen any where some board members, some practitioners, some people are just weirdly nervous about allowing remote supervision across all work settings. And to the point where one of the proposals that the BBs was was weighing out in this committee meeting was a 5050 model, where remote supervision would be allowed across all work settings, but you'd have to do no more than 50% of supervision remotely. And the other half would have to be in person, which eliminates a lot of the prospective benefit of telehealth supervision or tele supervision. And thankfully of those people who did show up to the committee meeting, to a person almost universally, they all dragged the committee for even considering this concept because it doesn't make sense. It just wouldn't work. And where they landed, I think their proposal that they're going to carry forward is to allow tele supervision across all work settings, including private practice, conditioned upon there being at least one in person meeting between supervisor and supervisee within 60 days of the beginning of the supervision relationship, and that's kind of a parallel to the the current requirement for the supervisor to get SSI related to supervision you have to do that within 60 days at the beginning of supervision and that allows for people who are kind of pulled in in agency or hospital or other settings at the last minute so that you don't have to do a whole bunch of other stuff before you can supervise if you're needing to take over quickly. But there is a bunch of stuff you have to do within 60 days. I don't really know why that in person meeting is necessary. But I will take that long before a 5050 kind of approach.
Curt Widhalm 10:11
Now and in hearing this, this sounds like we've been through one pandemic, we've seen the world transformed. Have we learned nothing about the way that commerce and healthcare has transformed and that many consumers are expecting us to continue to be available?
Dr. Ben Caldwell 10:33
I don't know that we've learned nothing. I also don't know that we have taken all of the lessons that we potentially could have taken the BBs to their credit, they went out and they did a bunch of surveys about kind of how people felt about tele supervision specifically. And there is clearly not only demand but expectation that that the current telehealth status of our work is largely here to stay. And that the policies we have that govern our work should accommodate that, rather than moving us backward to how things were pre pandemic. And there is some, I guess there's conflicted opinion about that. But the hope among the majority of practitioners is that we're not going to have this weird back and forth of, you know, tele supervision was okay for a long time, and then it's going to be not okay for a little while, and that's going to be okay. Again, I don't know if there's a way to avoid that at this point, it seems kind of inevitable that the the waiver is not going to go all the way through 2023. But I don't know how we then avoid that kind of forward and back and forward again, kind of process.
Katie Vernoy 11:47
What, what are we seeing across the country? Because I actually right before we started recording, I saw something from motivo. And they had, you know, kind of all the tele supervision laws across 50 states. And I'll put that that tool in the show notes. But I was noticing that it's very variable across all 50 states and even across licensure types. I mean, yeah, maybe though. So maybe the question isn't what is everybody else doing? But but kind of digging more into this anxiety? I mean, to me the in the in person meeting, what is it supposed to accomplish, that you can accomplish? According to this theory, that maybe you don't agree with? But like, what is it supposed to accomplish? And how is it supposed to improve the supervision relationship?
Dr. Ben Caldwell 12:38
The theory goes, that if you meet with the supervisee, in person that provides an opportunity to most effectively gauge whether they are in fact appropriate for tele supervision. That's the theory. Again, I've seen no hard evidence to back that up. And I would even argue that that's kind of the same anxiety that we saw and heard at the beginning of the the use of telehealth in therapy, where you had a lot of practitioners saying, Well, you know, it's just not the same as face to face, there's this thing about the energy in the room, and I need to assess somebody in person to see their little micro expressions and, and pick up on their vibe, and et cetera, et cetera. And that just has not held up to research scrutiny. That telehealth provision of services seems to be every bit as effective as in person services, from the overwhelming majority of studies conducted to date. And I don't see any reason why supervision would be different in that regard that there's somehow something magical in an in person supervision meeting, that would require that process for supervision. But we don't need to do that in standard telehealth care. These are in many ways, parallel but not identical processes. It's just that in both of them, it seems like we can do our jobs effectively, remotely. And we have been doing that for a year and a half now. And so sometimes in these committee meetings, people will say things like, well, I don't want to open the floodgates. Well, that ship has sailed, the floodgates have been open for a year and a half. Yeah, and it's been fine. I've seen no evidence that this has created some kind of a massive problem in terms of supervisee misbehavior or treatment failure in therapy. You know, we've all been doing the best we can under really, really difficult circumstances. And it's been an interesting natural experiment. And the results of that experiment are that telehealth and tele supervision can be tremendously tremendously effective and don't appear to increase risks at least from the best information we have available. Now.
Curt Widhalm 15:00
Now, he brought up CAMFT. And CAMFT has a little bit different opinion in this or at least based on a disciplinary action case that has a lot of nuances to it, but seems to oversimplify it to be like, but there was this one discipline action. Actually two because both the supervisor and the supervisee were disciplined. This case largely was it This was actually all before the pandemic even happened when when these infractions occurred. But can you walk us through what happened and why this is pertinent in this discussion?
Dr. Ben Caldwell 15:45
Yeah, so the the disciplinary action that you're talking about, I'm familiar with it, it was finalized in 2020. And you're right that it was based on behavior that had occurred prior to the pandemic. But there is kind of separate from the rest of the the supervision rules in California, there is this one very specific section of the California Business and Professions Code that says, and I'm going to quoted here, because I knew we were going to be talking about it. A trainee associate or applicant for licensure, shall only perform mental health and related services at the places where their employer permits business to be conducted. That section of law is not further limited. There's no like clause after that, that says, except for x y&z so if you read that, if you take that language at face value, then as long as the employer allows, and as long as the services are otherwise legally and ethically compliant, so you're still maintaining data security, you're still protecting confidentiality, you're still doing all the stuff that you are normally required to do, then it appears to be fine under the law, for a supervisee to work from home. And that's in statute. That's not an emergency waiver, that that is the sort of normal case of the law as it exists right now. The disciplinary action that you're talking about, there were a lot of things going on in that case, beyond just the supervisor, you're working from home, that is one thing that was happening, but there were a lot of other shenanigans that were happening there. And when you look at the disciplinary action, it reflects this kind of kitchen sink approach to discipline that a lot of boards take where they unearth as many possible violations as they can find, because that gives them some leverage in negotiating what the ultimate discipline against the licensee is going to be. So they document all these different violations. They put them in front of the administrative law judge, if it gets that far if it gets to a hearing, and that becomes the basis for disciplinary action. In this particular case, the administrative law judge looked at the history of the law, the history of that clause that I just quoted, and basically came to the conclusion that well, the legislature didn't intend to say that you can work from just anywhere. that's problematic. Yeah, it is. Right? I mean, the the historical record lines up with this, that neither the BBs and in running that legislation, nor the legislature and making the change, really intended to allow for full time work from home. But you and I, and other people were not expected to be psychic about what the laws intent was, we're supposed to be able to read the law, make sense of it with kind of a plain language, good faith reading, and act accordingly. And the language here quite plainly reads as though it allows work from home, including full time work from home, if the employer allows it and if it is otherwise legally, and ethically compliant. So to your question, Kurt.
Curt Widhalm 19:17
Okay, and even even before you get to the question,
Dr. Ben Caldwell 19:20
yeah
Curt Widhalm 19:20
even before you get to the question. This would also be inconsistent with many licensing boards, definition of therapy taking place where the client is located, and would be completely irrelevant to where those services are being provided, as far as where the practitioner is located.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 19:43
Yeah, that's right. The licensing boards and ethics codes generally take the stance that therapy happens, where the client is physically located at the time of service, and that's reflected in our California telehealth laws that's reflected in professional ethics codes that quite often use that word located very intentionally and specifically. Now, that doesn't mean that boards can't restrict where the therapist is providing services from they have that authority if they choose to take it on. But the California standard right now is just what I read to you, if the employer allows it, it's permitted.
Katie Vernoy 20:20
What was the intent,
Dr. Ben Caldwell 20:23
The intent was to allow for supervisees to leave their agency settings to go do like home visits at client homes, to work in homeless outreach to go provide services at schools and other kind of third party locations, where the the super actually the employer allowed it and where they could again, take those steps to protect and preserve confidentiality, data, security, etc. There's nothing in the record of that law change that really contemplates full time work from home. Although there's a whole bunch of laws, where we could say that the current environment, the COVID, environment was not contemplated at the time that that law was created. We we didn't anticipate being in the middle of a pandemic. Yeah. And so the BBs has said, Well, we probably ought to go back and take a look at this language. Now in light of what we've seen since the pandemic of people working from home full time, but it's weird to me that they are looking at it with the potential impact of kind of walking back this allowance, when again, work from home seems to have largely been fine for a year and a half.
Katie Vernoy 21:38
What's interesting, because I remember when field based services was coming about, you know, I was working in community mental health at that time, and and there was a huge pushback from providers on how it wouldn't be as good as someone coming into the clinic. And so that has that same feel to it of, well, maybe it's not good enough. But I think honestly, you know, the pendulums keep swinging on what's the best and all of that stuff. But uh, but what I'm really hearing is that the law in itself, as is currently written provides the flexibility and creativity for employers to be adaptive and responsive to the clients they serve. And that also means they can be adaptive and responsive to the workforce, and allow for clinicians to live where they can afford to live and do services in areas that potentially have a different lineup. You know, it, to me, it just seems like walking it back would be hugely detrimental to quality of life and quality of work for clinicians, but also for access for meeting clients where they are I mean, it just it seems, it seems to me that there's a lot to be worried about if this gets walked back.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 22:57
I agree. And a couple of people brought up very eloquently the the point about access and equity in that recent telehealth committee meeting. You know, one of the great advantages of allowing work from home is that it allows clinicians to provide services, even if the clinician is working from a rural location. And if the clinician has some kind of medical or mental health issue that makes it difficult for them to leave their home. You know, are we just telling those folks well, tough, then you can't work in the mental health field? I don't think any of us intends that. And so the question then becomes really how much flexibility and accommodation are we supposed to? Or do we want to put into the law, and I like this statute as it is right now, I recognize that it does not line up with the historical intent. But I think the outcome is fantastic.
Katie Vernoy 23:53
My understanding of the best laws and policies are ones that are specific to what's most important, but don't get caught in the details of, you know, kind of current affairs, right, like so if we're, whether it's working in the field, whether it's working telehealth like this, the law itself provides enough guidance around it. And so to specify it becomes more time limited, it would it would date it, and it would make it so it would have to change again soon. Whereas as it's written, it actually does what it needs to do. At least that's what I'm hearing that you're saying.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 24:30
Yeah, I mean, the law is intended to be revised over time. It's a it's a living set of documents, right? And so we're always responding to what's happening in the larger world around us and hopefully learning more about how professionals work how we can best provide services. From the BBs perspective. They are fundamentally a Public Protection Agency. So they're most interested in developing laws and regulations that keep clients safe. And to that end, I think we've got Now a year and a half worth of data that suggests that when the therapist is working from home that does not seem to impede client safety. Now there is still a supervisor responsibility there in terms of making sure that that supervisee really can provide a confidential and data secure environment. But to your point, Katie, I think that the best laws are ones that both allow and enforce a level of appropriate professional responsibility and judgment. And so do we want to be really prescriptive in terms of how supervisors are supposed to ensure that? Or do we just want to say that supervisors have that responsibility of ensuring that their supervisors are providing data security, confidentiality, etc, and let supervisors kind of do their jobs?
Curt Widhalm 25:50
So I want to talk in generalities, that almost sounded like a real word. I want to talk generally about some of the disciplinary stuff that this seems to be based on because you talked about the administrative law judge, looking at the intention behind the law. But at face value, some of the concerns about oversight seems to be really the foundations of a lot of these anxieties, the the, some of the cardigan cartel pearl clutching seems to be based on here. Now, my understanding is this disciplinary action is already written into law as far as the kinds of oversights that a supervisor should be having over their supervisees. Anyway, am I correct in that?
Dr. Ben Caldwell 26:49
Yeah, so with the, the disciplinary action I was talking about earlier, there, there were so many problematic things happening in terms of the supervisee sort of acting independently, with the blessing of the supervisor, as best as can be read, they're to go out and get office space and set things up, like it was a supervisees own business, do independent billing, etc, etc, there's a there's a lot of stuff there in terms of the oversight that the supervisor was supposed to be providing that they were not providing, apparently.
Curt Widhalm 27:26
And that is already in the law as far as this kind of stuff. And so if I'm hearing and making up what I have not attended this meeting, making up what I imagined that the conversation is, well, if there's even less oversights by not having met them physically, one time that this is going to prevent all sorts of future bad supervisee behavior. When you know, I have a practice, I have supervisees, in my practice, they can do stuff off the clock anyway, that would do any of these things anyway, that are already against the law.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 28:08
Yeah, and that's one of the challenges, I think, from a from a regulatory framework, but also for for you and me and everybody else, as supervisors, you know, we do the best we can and ensuring that the behavior of our supervisees is legally and ethically compliant. And there are those situations where, you know, there may be a disciplinary action against a supervisee, but not their supervisor, because the supervisee did go off kind of on their own didn't tell the supervisor about stuff they were doing. And the supervisor was providing the kind of expected and intended level of supervision. I don't think there's any amount of in person requirement or any level of regulation that is going to effectively prevent every supervisee, who has sort of ill intent from going out and doing what they decide on their own to do. I think the question becomes this balance of how much regulation do you do? How prescriptive Do you get in telling supervisors how to do their jobs? And what what levers Do you want to pull to try to ensure that supervision happens in the way that you would like for it to happen, you know, one of the levers you can pull is requiring a certain level of in person supervision. But does that actually impact anything in terms of legal and ethical compliance beyond that? I don't know.
Curt Widhalm 29:35
It would seem with a lot of the waivers and stuff that have been in place across the country that we would not want to become overly restrictive for when and if there is a next pandemic or worldwide event. In your opinion here does the direction that these discussions are going at the at the licensing board and Possibly, and other licensing boards across the country seem to be ignoring some of that flexibility that would allow for a profession to need to respond in an event, like a pandemic, if it were to happen again.
Dr. Ben Caldwell 30:17
Yeah, I mean, as Katie said, the, the way that boards are moving and the sort of default states for boards across the country, it's all over the map. There are some that that really had flexible policies in place before the pandemic. There are some who I think I've taken lessons from the pandemic and are wanting to move in a direction of flexibility. And there are others who might say, once the pandemic is and take this with a giant grain of salt, more or less over, that they just want to go back to what the default state had been before that. It's, it's a reasonable thing to ask what should be sort of the the normal state of regulation for mental health work. And then what should be the exception, where we do things a little bit differently because an emergency demands it. I think that at least the preponderance of what I've seen in Policymaking around the country, boards are kind of moving in the direction of more allowance of telehealth more allowance of even temporary practice across state lines. Of course, all the professions are working hard on trying to improve license portability. And those are good changes. policy does appropriately, move slowly. You know, we don't want the law to be so reactive to current events, that you're getting constant whiplash, you're being pushed and pulled in different directions based on the events of the past few weeks or past few months. But I think we are going to see some lasting change, especially around telehealth regulation. What's going to be weird, not just in California, but in a bunch of places around the country, is that with putting into policy, what we've learned from the pandemic, we've got sort of this exceptional state right now, where where lots of places are still under some form of emergency authorizations, we're going to go back to the prior default state, at least for a little while, as new policies are being crafted run through state legislatures and implemented, and then we're going to step forward again, to a new normal, that better accounts for the flexibility that has been shown to be really effective during the pandemic. It's, it is a weird forward than back then forward again. And I don't think every state board is going to land in the same place in terms of the adaptations they want to make on an ongoing basis. But I do think the, the overall path is a good one. It's a path toward increased use of telehealth increased authorization for telehealth. It's a path toward better license portability. It's a path toward flexibility in the supervision process. But it's not a straight line to get there.
Curt Widhalm 33:18
If you've hung with us this late in the episode, the call to action here really is keep an eye on your licensing boards. And to know that there is a lot of stuff that you might have to sit through, but could drastically impact the way that you go about your business or the way that you go about your practice. And these are the kinds of mundane things that those of us who've been in the advocacy world for a while. We hear complaints 5678 years later of like, Well, why didn't anybody say anything. And that could have steered a direction, you know, that prevented some of this stuff from happening. And as Dr. Caldwell was pointing out here that for many states, this might be a forced return back to pre pandemic ways while the legislative process catches up with some of the actions that we've been able to do during this pandemic. But go and be a part of those conversations as that legislation is being crafted so that way, you can actually talk with licensing boards, law makers about how this has played out in the real world. And that is something that is tremendously impactful when talking with people like politicians who have no idea about what we do. So thank you for spending some time with us today. And where can people find out more about you and the stuff that you're working on?
Dr. Ben Caldwell 35:01
They can find out more about me and my stuff at simple practice learning.com. And just I want to thank you both as always, for having me on, these are really important conversations to have. And I couldn't have said that better for it. if folks want to know what policy changes are coming down the pike show up, come to these meetings. It's it's not unusual that we will hear from people to change takes effect saying, what How did this happen? I didn't know about this. Well, if you go to your board meetings, you can know about those changes a year or more ahead of time. And in fact, you can have real influence on what those changes are going to look like. I love it. When more folks come to these board meetings, it makes for better conversation and informed decision making for everybody.
Katie Vernoy 35:48
And it's probably a little less boring for you,
35:50
It is a lot less boring. Listen, like in parks and rec people sometimes will show up with the most off the wall. Wild comments that have nothing to do with anything. And if there is I'll admit this certain part of my heart that is it warmed when that happens.
Katie Vernoy 36:13
I've got my marching orders. I'll be there next time.
Curt Widhalm 36:17
Until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Ben Caldwell.
Katie Vernoy 36:22
Thanks again to our sponsor Turning Point
Curt Widhalm 36:25
we wanted to tell you a little bit more about our sponsor turning points. Turning Points is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals to help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debt and evaluating big purchases, like your first home. And because they specialize in serving therapists and private practice, so help you navigate the finances of your practice as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources. They'll even help you consider strategies like S corp tax collection,
Katie Vernoy 37:02
and for listeners of MTSG you'll receive 30% off the price of their quickstart coaching intensive just enter promo code modern therapist when signing up. And don't forget to visit Turning Point hq.com to download your free finance quickstart guide for therapists.
Announcer 37:19
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Reimagining Therapy Reimagined Curt and Katie chat about their decision to step back from the Therapy Reimagined Conference and what they will be focusing their energy on moving forward. We explore how we came to this decision and the importance of examining what is working in your business practice. We also talk about how other Modern Therapists can get involved in the Therapy Reimagined movement.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Taking a step back and looking at what the mission for Therapy Reimagined is. * Why we decided to take a step back from the Therapy Reimagined Conference. * What we will be focusing our energy on in place of the conference. * How and what you can begin advocating for to help improve the field. * Factors that get in the way of advocacy. * Ways to get involved with Therapy Reimagined.
Our Generous Sponsors: Turning Point Turning Point is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals. They'll help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances, like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debt and evaluating big purchases, like your first home.
And because they specialize in serving therapists in private practice, they'll help you navigate the finances of your practice, as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources. They'll even help you consider strategies like the S-Corp tax election.
Visit turningpointHQ.com to learn more and enter the promo code Modern Therapist for 30% off their Quick Start Coaching package.
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Therapy Reimagined (4 Tenets)
Relevant Episodes:
Therapy Reimagined
Defining the Therapy Movement
Therapy of Tomorrow
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Why YOU Shouldn’t Sell Out to Betterhelp
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by Turning Point
Katie Vernoy 00:00
Turning Point financial life planning helps therapists confidently navigate every aspect of their financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing Tax Management and student loans. Visit TurningPointhq.com. To learn more and enter the promo code Modern Therapist for 30% off their quickstart coaching package.
Curt Widhalm 00:24
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:27
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:43
Welcome back monitor therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm, with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that is all things therapists, things that we do things we look at our profession about the struggles that we face coming into this fields, and about this time of year is when we're always coming out of our therapy reimagined conference. And some years we've recorded a live podcast at the conference. But this is the time of year when we reflect on what our mission is, and how we're going about that evaluating if we're being effective or not. And one of the things that we announced at this year's therapy reimagined conference is that we're not doing a therapy reimagined conference in 2022, that we have decided that our conference is going to go and live on a farm upstate, where it can have plenty of room to roam around and play with other conferences. But we are looking at, and part of the decision to not who is is the tremendous amount of time that it takes for our very small team to put together an event that is a snapshot in time of a lot of work that we do, it's hundreds, if not 1000s, of man hours to put on an event that Katie and I feel that some of that time can be actually better done to further admission in some other ways. And taking a step back as far as 2022 goes, does allow for us to refocus on our mission.
Katie Vernoy 02:31
Yes, and I think some of it came into stark relief, because we were putting on a conference two years in a row during a pandemic, with planning the conference numerous times, interacting around, you know, the COVID and the other stuff, but also zoom fatigue, and it just kind of the general malaise that I think has set in on all of us. And so, to me, I found that when we were getting ready for this year's conference, there was a lot I was really excited about. But there was a lot where I felt like, if I had more time I could do x if I had more time right now that wasn't dedicated to this conference, I could really do more for the mission that we've set for ourselves. And so and I know Kurt, you were feeling the same way. So I use is cuz I don't want to speak for you. But um, the things that I really see, being really important for us is looking at reevaluating how we're using our resources, time, team money, all of those things, because there's a lot that's happening in the field of mental health right now. I'm sure we'll do another workforce podcast around people leaving the field. And there's also a lot of initiatives that are starting to come forward that may help therapists but certainly are designed to try to make therapy more accessible. And so there's just a lot where I think we need boots on the ground, to be able to make sure that our profession is actually going in the right direction that we're using this time to make a difference versus being so stuck in the grind of whether it's our practices or a big annual conference or whatever. When Kurt and I were talking, I thought it was important that we actually for folks who haven't been with us that long, we've got a lot of new listeners lately, to really let people know what our mission is. We have a website that is dedicated to the podcast and to the therapy reimagined mission and so I'm I'll read kind of the main four tenants that we put up on this website, but we'll also link to it in the show notes. The four things that we're really looking at is create sustainable careers supporting sound business practices, the incorporation of technology and adequate pay for all therapists. The second one is improved education to reflect modern practices support, support high quality clinical work, trained therapists to care for themselves and address the diversity in our communities. Increased representation across the field, in supporting inclusion on our stages in our classrooms and in our offices. And, you know, kind of the one of the moment improve access to mental health care without requiring sacrifice, financial instability and burnout from therapists. So there's a lot there. It's a very broad mission. It's more just like, how do we make our profession better? But I think there's a lot that we could be doing here and, and so to me, I think for this episode, we kind of turn to what are we looking at? How do we do this? How do we help our fellow Modern Therapists to make our profession better?
Curt Widhalm 05:50
And but we have a number of projects that we're working on that we'll be announcing it has they come up, because one of the things that we have learned is get things kind of figured out before we
Katie Vernoy 06:05
very true, very true, we get so excited, and then we get to many projects. So yes, we will, we will wait to announce the ones till we're really ready.
Curt Widhalm 06:14
The podcast isn't going to change. And in fact, it's probably might allow us to become a lot better and a lot more focused and being able to bring messages that especially leading up to conference time, some of our podcasts, we have to record out quite a bit of head of time. So that way you can put on a conference. But
Katie Vernoy 06:36
yeah, we that little logistical thing of Hey, for the next two months, most of our focus will be the conference, that we have freedom to not do that this year.
Curt Widhalm 06:44
We're we're not going anywhere. As far as the podcast goes, we're going to be adding out some other things, we started a little online place for some continuing education, if that is something that we'll probably continue on with our conference that will allow us to bring some content to you and some new and other ways. Yes. And that takes off a couple of some of these mission points as far as providing still a good place for improving education for therapists and being able to bring what I think a lot of other conferences have shied away from, which is content about running business practices better.
Katie Vernoy 07:27
But also topics that push the envelope. It's interesting, because for me, I feel like we've been so immersed in our conference segment, which is misfits, outliers pushing against the status quo, like that just feels so endemic that I'm like, Oh, well, everybody has topics like this. And I think that's not actually true. Right. So continuing to bring new perspective to the clinical work to how people show up in the room, so that that's still going to be happening. And I like to think about that as like a learning community where we find different new and different ways to learn together through the podcast through this learning platform that we built out for the conference. I think that's all going to be really fun, regardless of exactly what it looks like, which we still don't know. So we're not going to promise.
Curt Widhalm 08:11
One of the things that I'm really looking forward to re establishing in our work is piece of the advocacy of really getting boots on the ground. And Katie mentioned that we're working on another workforce issue. We'll we'll get into some of these details here in a little bit. But I'm seeing across the country, a lot more bills going through legislators about dealing with mental health workforce shortages. And knowing that we can't rely solely on the professional organizations to be able to voice what it is that we actually need as workers that beyond getting like an extra Subway sandwich, you know, in an appreciation lunch once a month, that there are really structural problems with the way that our field is funded, and working with legislators outside of legislative season, when they're busy focusing on hundreds of bills. Yes, this is where some of the free time that we have not in planning a next year's conference right now is we're going to come up with some bullet points for you to actually start talking with your legislative representatives about in order to deal with this. You know, I can't wait to record this next episode. But it is going to be something where there is a call to action that's necessary because just as a little preview, some states are looking at having the National Guard come in to staff, residential facilities. Yeah, that's not good. So these are the kinds of things that allow for our focus to take some time into actually start making some impact to leave this as a better profession for those going forward.
Katie Vernoy 10:05
I think advocacy and activism can feel daunting. And I think it can also feel exhausting to be an activist or an advocate for your own profession. It's like, Hey, I gave it the office, so to speak. And I think for Kurt, and for me, I think this is clearly a huge passion of ours, we've been involved at the state level with our professional association with our board. And I think it's something where we can do some of the legwork, and I'm sure there's others like us out there that maybe can do the legwork in other states. And we could potentially put together a repository of information so people could activate on a local level on a national level on an international level and recognize we've got listeners from all over the place. And so I think it's, it's something where sharing information and doing the part that you can, maybe it's not always sufficient, but it's certainly good enough.
Curt Widhalm 11:06
And this comes across not just in legislative bills, right? Sure. One of the episodes that not one of the episodes, the absolute most popular episode that we've done, is about not selling out to companies like betterhelp. Yes. And some of the advocacy and stuff that we need to do is going beyond just complaining about companies Yes. And being able to turn that energy into something productive, based on the download numbers on this episode. This is something that really resonates with our community, we crafted our therapy, reimagined conference, talk around surviving and thriving in your own practices in a world where these apps are coming out. There's more steps that we can do. And it's well beyond the reaches of licensing boards, it's well beyond the reaches, which professional organizations are even starting to focus on. Yeah, that really does take more than the two of us clicking on every betterhelp ad that we see trying to take them down $1 at a time and advertising money.
Katie Vernoy 12:24
Oh, dear. There we go. Again, I think the thing that I'm hearing you say current and I think this is what's what's really important is that yes, there are things that need to happen at a legislative level at a policy level. And then there's kind of how we spend our dollars, so to speak, or how we spend our energy. And so one of the things that I'm really looking at, and I've been talking to some fellow modern therapists, and I'm going to be doing some more research. And I know Kurt, you're you're involved in this as well is really looking at how do we make a decision on where we work, who we work with, where we spend our money, because those things are actually hugely impactful on on what flies, better help and other organizations, conglomerates, you know, whatever, would not survive if we didn't work there. And so I think it's something where being able to get more information to everyone so that we can make those decisions, I think is something that's important to us. But we also are just two people, with a few people helping us out. And so we can't look everywhere at once. And so as always, we're always saying like, hey, if there's something that we need to be looking at, if there's something you're looking at that you want to talk with us about on the podcast, please send us a message podcast at therapy, reimagined, calm, but I think it's something where sharing information so that we're making more informed decisions is something that we can do much better when we have more time. And I think if you're listening and taking action based on that information, it has a ripple effect that I think is really impactful for our profession.
Curt Widhalm 14:07
And one of the things we hear at the conference from our attendees year after year, especially people who are attending the first time as Where were you earlier in my career.
Katie Vernoy 14:19
And that will say we've been here.
Curt Widhalm 14:22
And you know, the more the longer that we do the stuff that we do, that is becoming part of my answers. And that not having other people entering in our profession feeling the same way. And this is the call to action of being able to help us being able to take some of the steps that we do. And being able to do that in your own community is your own professional organizations, your own licensing boards, your own even therapists, culture and community around you does make it to where It's not the same complaints over and over. Part of what Katie and I thought, when we were originally launching the podcast back in 2017, was, if we just start talking about some of the issues that we hear in the same conversations over and over again, and we record them, then maybe this can serve as a resource for people to not have to ask the same questions over and over again. And it's worked a little bit, it helps to be able to post an old podcast up and say, here's our take on this from when we talked about this before. And in some areas, it has really served to shift some of the conversations that some of this deals with, like our work on developing a statement about paying pre licensees that, really being able to see our profession, in some respects, be able to stand up and be like, we have master's degrees or doctorate degrees, we should get paid for the work that we do. And part of this is how much I recognize that, for a profession like ours, where the median age is a lot higher than it is in a lot of other professions, we hold on to a lot of old ways. And a lot of the things that is frustrating that we have had the same conversations over and over again, is that the more vocal modern therapists are, the more that we can start to sway what the attitudes about our profession really are. I'm sensing that we are getting this tipping point. And the reason that I know this is the more that I hear from more established seasoned therapists about how we're making it harder for people to get hired at low rates. Yeah, that people are asking for things like, oh, living wage, rather than working for free. But I know that this tide is changing. A lot of this is beyond what we do. But sure, it's giving the permission to be able to make this a sustainable career. And that is very much part of our mission. And we see this in a number of ways. But hopefully, it's those people who are listening to us those people who are coming to our conference for the first time, we're able to take away some of those other complaints from future therapists to be able to say, there was a time when you guys didn't get paid.
Katie Vernoy 17:38
Yeah, that would be cool. Yeah, I don't know what to expect as far as what's reasonable, or not even reasonable. Maybe that's not the right word. But what, what's realistic to expect as far as the amount of changes we can make, and I know we've talked about how to approach change at different times, whether it's working within the system, or burning it all down and starting fresh, or whatever it is. And I think, to me have been one of those therapists that has been around for quite some time, it's just blows my mind that I've been a therapist for 20 years. And it's something where I've burned it down, I've quit things and a half. And I've also worked within the system. And I don't know that either of those things can work without the other completely. I think there needs to be people working in both, both arenas making these differences. And I'm not sure how much can be done it within within the remainder of my career, I've got you know, I've been a therapist for 20 years, I'll probably be a therapist for another 20 years. So I'm right smack dab in the middle. I don't know what's reasonable to expect. And maybe this is just me feeling reflective and a little bit sentimental after the conference is finished. But I'm excited about the work we can do. And I also am trying to stay more cautiously optimistic about what's actually possible.
Curt Widhalm 19:11
And I'm looking at it as fast not doing conference. That way we can focus on is more sustained effort, you know, avoiding the Tony Robbins effect, you know, where people go to the, you know, great motivational speakers, and they walk out and they're like, I'm gonna change everything about my life.
Katie Vernoy 19:33
Everything is gonna be amazing now because I was at a three day conference.
Curt Widhalm 19:38
And people have done research on people who attend Tony Robbins events. It's why it's named after him. Yeah. That effect wears off after about 72 hours.
Katie Vernoy 19:49
Oh, geez. The length of that of the conference maybe is the length of time that you remain, you keep that sustain that that effort and so
Curt Widhalm 19:59
what We want is for us to be able to not just focus on creating kind of this groundswell of energy that everyone returns back to their normal lives, but is able to kind of throughout the year, hold some consistent pressure on the community around them, you know, they
Katie Vernoy 20:20
can't escape us, they will always have us all the time, and we will constantly be working.
Curt Widhalm 20:26
Well, I mean, it's, it's the things like, you know, you're talking about having left agencies in a house before. And yes, but it's also taking a hard look at ourselves and the culture that we bring, because I look at some of the Facebook groups where somebody, you know, announces that they're leaving a group, because they're not satisfied with the way that the community support is. And looking at the atrocious way that the Facebook communities respond in those situations, tells me that there's a lot of therapists that are just fine, being part of that toxicity.
Katie Vernoy 21:09
And the status quo. Yeah, and I think there are times when the people leaving and a half are actually part of the toxic culture, too. So we're not commenting on specific people who have left in a half. But I think it's it's something where the response, I guess, regardless of whether someone leaving is part of the toxicity, or whether the environment is toxic, or both, the response is to sustain the status
Curt Widhalm 21:36
quo, the same status quo that everyone complains about.
Katie Vernoy 21:40
Yes. So I think consistent effort, it building a consistent culture of learning and growing and challenging the status quo and working to combat complacency. I think I like that idea. I also am just acknowledging that people may need to opt out at times, because it is a lot of work to sustain this type of effort to keep pushing forward. Especially if there are other things that people are interested in advocating for and activating for. So we recognize that but we're gonna maintain consistency are gonna be there. Week after week, with the podcast month after month, with whatever else we're doing, we're going to be pushing forward these concepts to make all of our careers better.
Curt Widhalm 22:28
And a final note from me on this is, this is also permission for you that we believe in the things that we talked about on this podcast, we do them in our practices, and part of what you're witnessing is reevaluating what's working for your business and what's not. And Katie, and I came to the conclusion that conferences, not helping us in the way that we want to spread our mission. It's something where it's okay to take a step back. And really what we're giving ourselves permission on, is we come out of therapy, reimagined, 2021, Hayes is you don't have to have everything figured out at every step along the way. Part of redeveloping your business plan is looking at what's working and what's not, we're in that phase of, we know what's not working for us, and gonna be sitting down and clarifying and continuing to bring you great content.
Katie Vernoy 23:30
And a final note from me, because I think part of our assessment and evaluation is that it's the two of us and a few other people that have been doing a lot of this work. And we've had opportunities and I hope, have taken advantage of opportunities to collaborate with a number of people, with our speakers with our sponsors and partners. We've collaborated with a lot of people. But the word that kept resonating for me as I was thinking about how we move forward is co creation. And so my call to action is stay involved. But let us know if you actually want to take a step forward with us and help us with creating content or researching something or spotlighting an area of our profession that needs a closer look. You know, definitely reach out to us but Kurt and I have each have our own experiences and perspectives and and we need to broaden that in the work that we do. And so if you want to be part of this co creation of the next steps, please reach out and let us know.
Curt Widhalm 24:39
Until next time, I'm Kurt, Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 24:43
Thanks again to our sponsor turning point,
Curt Widhalm 24:46
we wanted to tell you a little bit more about our sponsor turning points. Turning Points is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals to help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances like budgeting investing Selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debts and evaluating big purchases, like your first home, and because they specialize in serving therapists and private practice, so help you navigate the finances of your practice as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes, like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources will even help you consider strategies like S corp tax election,
Katie Vernoy 25:24
And for listeners of MTSG you'll receive 30% off the price of their quickstart coaching intensive just enter promo code modern therapist when signing up. And don't forget to visit TurningPointhq.com to download your free finance quickstart guide for therapists. Thank you
Announcer 25:41
for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Why You Shouldn’t Just Do it All Yourself An interview with Bibi Goldstein, on how clinicians can grow their business by assessing what they can automate, delegate, or eliminate. We explore the importance of getting rid of the tasks you don’t enjoy doing and benefit of creating more time for things you do enjoy (including getting some rest!). We also talk about how to balance spending money to outsource responsibilities in order to make revenue.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Bibi Goldstein, Founder of Buying Time, LLC Buying Time, LLC founder, Bibi Goldstein is a time management and systems expert, speaker, co-author of Get Organized Today, Navigating Entrepreneurship and Business Success with Ease, where she provides information on establishing systems in every size business. She is an Infusionsoft Certified Partner and works with many entrepreneurs to automate and systemize their businesses in order to maximize their time. Her team proudly launched www.virtualassistantsuniversity.com in 2021 to provide an opportunity for the millions of people finding themselves needing alternatives to a traditional work environment due to the pandemic.
She is an active member of her business community in the South Bay. Bibi is current chair for the South Bay Women’s Conference, Board Member at the Manhattan Beach Chamber of Commerce, Community Chair/Board Member at the Redondo Beach Chamber of Commerce, Advisory Board Member for Walk With Sally, a mentoring program and Past President and current Vice President of the South Bay Business Women’s Association, she served as a committee member and past chair for the Manhattan Beach Women In Business, past President of the Kiwanis Club of Manhattan Beach, and a member of the 2011 class of Leadership Redondo.
Bibi has strong lifelong ties to the South Bay community, she lives in Redondo Beach with her husband Mark and has a daughter Julie who is a hairstylist and a local entrepreneur.
In this episode we talk about: * Who Bibi Goldstein is and what she puts out in the world. * What people, specifically healers, get wrong in scaling their businesses. * How clinicians can figure out what to outsource for their business and what to manage themselves. * Understanding how to balance what outsourcing will cost you and how much it will make you. * Important things new clinicians should know about scaling their business and action steps they can take now. * The things clinicians should not outsource. * How clinicians can do a quick assessment of what they need to automate, delegate, or eliminate. * Understanding the importance of rest and doing the things you enjoy to help grow your practice. * Getting over not wanting to outsource because of anxiety about how “bad” you’ve been doing it thus far. * What Buying Time and Virtual Assistant University are all about.
Our Generous Sponsor: Turning Point Turning Point is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals. They'll help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances, like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debt and evaluating big purchases, like your first home.
And because they specialize in serving therapists in private practice, they'll help you navigate the finances of your practice, as well. They'll help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources. They'll even help you consider strategies like the S-Corp tax election.
Visit turningpointHQ.com to learn more and enter the promo code Modern Therapist for 30% off their Quick Start Coaching package.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Buying Time LLC
Virtual Assistant University
Bibi Demonstrating Delegation To Technology
Social Media: @buyingtimellc, @virtualassistantuniversity, @bibigoldstein
Relevant Episodes:
Post Pandemic Practice
Mental Health Entrepreneurship
Don’t Take Tax Advice from Therapists
Creating Opportunities
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by Turning Point.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Turning Point financial life planning helps therapists confidently navigate every aspect of their financial life from practice financials and personal budgeting to investing Tax Management and student loans. Visit Turning Point hq.com. To learn more and enter the promo code modern therapist for 30% off their quickstart coaching package.
Curt Widhalm 00:24
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:27
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:43
Welcome back Modern Therapists This is The Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. This is the podcast for therapists and all the things we do the ways that we see clients the ways that we run our business. Our guest today is Bibi Goldstein, she has helped us put on the therapy reimagined conference last few years really helped us to up our game with that. And she is the owner and founder of Buying Time LLC, a lot of really good virtual assistant type stuff and helping us and helping you our audience to figure out some ways, the advantages of having to have a team to help expand the things that you do for your clients and improve your clinical practice. So thank you very much for spending some time with us.
Bibi Goldstein 01:33
I'm so excited to spend time with two of my favorite people.
Katie Vernoy 01:36
Oh, we're really excited to have you too. And I have to admit, I am really excited about this conversation because I think everything, maybe not every single thing. But the foundational things that I've learned about delegating, automating running my business more simply, all of those things have been in conversation with you. And you've been your team has been my team since almost I began my business. And so I'm excited that we're finally taking this opportunity to talk about this because the depth of your experience and knowledge, I think it's gonna be a big source of relief for our audience, because I think this is something that's really scary for them. So the first question we ask everyone is, who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Bibi Goldstein 02:23
Well, in the broad sense of who I am, I'm going off of the general titles. I'm a mother and a wife, and I'm somebody who enjoys supporting people. And that's what I'm putting out in the world. I love the idea that what I do for a living, almost feels the same as what I like to do in my volunteer work and things like that in where you can support people through using your skill set and your knowledge to do something bigger and better with their talents.
Katie Vernoy 02:58
I love that I know, you could probably answer the next question with a very long answer. Because this is part of how you assess what what people need, but what to therapists and other small business owners because I know you work with a lot of different types of business owners, but helpers are one of the one of your hearts one of the people of your heart are their helpers. What do they do? What do they often get wrong when building or scaling their businesses? Well, first, I
Bibi Goldstein 03:25
could probably answer every question with a really, really long answer. You know, I, I'm sure that everybody who knows me would say that I have lots of answers for everything. But I think that the whole idea of what you went to school to become a therapist, you didn't go to school to become a business person. And I think that one of the areas that many people get get wrong is that this idea that they can run everything by themselves, or that they can outsource everything, instead of finding that middle ground and the bridge that says how do I be a really great practitioner and a really great therapist, a really great coach, whatever it is, and at the same time, be able to build my business and grow my business, and have not have any knowledge of that, you know, everything from marketing, to accounting to scheduling all of those pieces, you go into that as a therapist thinking, I'm going to go help people. That's what my world is going to be I want to go help people. And if that's what you want to do, and help people then how do you do that and still make sure that the rent got paid and the lights got paid and all of these other things because you're focused on helping people.
Curt Widhalm 04:51
How should people have that honest assessment about themselves, what they should outsource what they should continue to be doing for themselves. Have you work with people to help them find like, here's where you're wasting a lot of time or a lot of money or like, here's where you're just really not good at this and you should spend money to get somebody who's better at doing this.
Bibi Goldstein 05:14
I think that there's a couple of different things that people that we look at when we talk with many of our clients for the first time, the area that we focus on primarily is what is that thing that you hate doing? That is first place that we go. Because what we don't like we procrastinate, all of us do in everything in our lives, right? If it wasn't for my husband, laundry, laundry would never get done in this house, as I hate it. Same with cooking. But you know what, give me a sink full of dishes and I'm happy. And I can do do that, you know, you find those things that make you happy that you love doing but you outsource those things that you hate doing. So you start there, find those things that you hate doing. The second place would be find the things that you're really not that good at. So you may not hate it, but you may not be so great at it, right? If you find yourself consistently making mistakes in balancing your bank register, then maybe it's time to hire a bookkeeper.
Katie Vernoy 06:24
Yeah, that was the first one for me, right? Like I was like, baby, I have a whole drawer full of receipts. And I have not balanced my checkbook, basically, or my books for most of the year. So I hated it. And I was bad at it. So okay, sorry, back to your list.
Bibi Goldstein 06:46
So what you hate what you're bad at? And then I always try to get folks to look at those things that are not value generating, revenue generating. And when I say value, is it something that brings value to your client? For you to do those things? Does it matter to your client? If you're the person who's posting on your social media? Is that a value based thing, even though you love it, and you love being on social media, and you like being out there and doing these? Maybe that's not the thing that brings value in traditional businesses, the the idea of revenue generating is the first place that we think that right? If, and this is always a tough conversation in the world of professionals, whether it's therapists, attorneys, doctors, whatever you name it, we, you know, we support clients in all of those areas. I would say that you have to think about, can I make more money in this hour that I'm spending doing this? versus handing it to somebody else? Who would charge less than what I charge an hour? Yeah, it still kind of come away ahead of the game. And it's it's it's a phrase that I heard a long time ago, and I continue to use, and that is not not, what is it going to cost me? But what is it going to make me say more about that? You know, that concept around if you charge $150 an hour, and that work that you're spending an hour or two doing? You could be seeing somebody for that $150? Yeah, and you can pay somebody between 40 and $70, for an expertise at something, you're still making money. And that's the part that I think that we get stuck on as business owners, myself included, it's constantly this Well, can we really do that? Can we is is that really in our budget? And well, wait a second, what is that going to free up? Yeah. What is that going to free up for me? And so when we think about those things, I think it's super important for us to constantly look at what are our financial goals? And within those financial goals? Can we add some more hours where we can take away some of the administrative part of running our business
Katie Vernoy 09:17
in the tasks that I initially delegated to your team, which was my bookkeeping, I would spend a day, every couple of months trying to sort through it. And I recognize not only was it the hours that I could be either seeing clients and so getting that, you know, fictional $150 an hour or I could be marketing or I could be networking, or I could be resting. But when I was sitting there with the emotional load of this bookkeeping that wasn't getting done or wasn't getting done right, then I was less effective. And I also was spending way more time than the bookkeeper on your team was spending. And so for me, it's It's what is it going to make me? But also what is it going to free up for me and I love that concept. Because that concept I think is revolutionary. I think a lot of people won't invest in their business, because they're worried about the cost. And they don't really picture what the final result is. And I think being able to think past, well, this cost this much, and this cost this much. And this cost this much, I think is a big step up for business owners.
Bibi Goldstein 10:25
Yeah, it's so true. It's amazing how, if you could stop for even a moment and recognize that, and I want to go to your comment about rest, okay, because you guys are in the, and I'm a strong believer in energy, right? So you're in this, this field of space, where you're taking on someone's at someone else's energy, in order to be fully there for them, and support them in their time of needing you. Yeah, how do you do that? It's that idea of, you know, if your cup is empty, you can't give to other people. And if that rest creates an opportunity for you to become better at what you do, I'm more efficient at what you do love what you do again, enjoy that, then that's part of it as well. So yeah, it's it's that piece of just figuring out, yes, I can, this is the one thing that I can get off of my plate, that's that, if everyone started with that thing that they hated. And the bookkeeping thing is a huge piece of that, Katie, we hear that all the time, it's, well, I tried to recreate everything, and then I can't remember because it was two months ago, and I can't, you know, I'm trying to, like, decipher what I did with this. And I can't find this receipt and these kinds of things. But our bookkeeper, the person on our team who does that she's in the system all day. So she's not having to shift gears. So that's the last thing I'll say about it, because that's one of the areas too, that we find in productivity and efficiency is that when you have to shift gears from one type of work to another type of work, so you go from something that's heart centered, where you're with a client, and then you have to turn around and do something that's more cerebral and more outside of your realm, the time that it takes us to switch, that's why they tell us to turn off diggings and all of these other things, because those interruptions, those interruptions cost you seconds that turn into minutes that turn into hours that turn into days,
Curt Widhalm 12:36
I want to jump in here, because you're talking about people who were really busy already, and you know, have maybe dug themselves into this time hole that you know, they need to free up a bunch of time. There's also people who are starting out their practices or might have some of their time that allows for them to get sucked into all of these various projects that they don't know yet that they don't like or they do know that they don't like, Can you speak a little bit more to people who are starting out their businesses too, as far as getting these systems in place, and why it's a worthwhile investment, even if they don't have those revenue generating hours ready upfront,
Bibi Goldstein 13:18
it's actually like the best time to to start with getting that support, you can hire a VA for even a couple of hours a month for a little over $100 and, and be able to take even just a few things that you know going in, it's not what you enjoy doing. But it's all about creating a plan, right? When you go to, you know, hang your proverbial shingle and go into business, there's some things that you still have to do, right, you still have to set yourself up as a business, you still have to set yourself up as as an entity, you have to go to the bank and open a bank account, you have to do all of these things. And if people just made that idea of how can I start off with these things as part of that setup, when you are also new, one of the things that I always encourage people to do is when you're small, it's very, very easy for you to start to document your processes. document, how you want your phone answered, document how you want your client intake to go, document how you want to how you want your scheduling to happen, start documenting those things, because then that documentation makes it so much easier as you grow, to be able to either bring on Team bring on a VA and hand that to somebody. And with all of these great technology things that we have. Now. You can do your process documentation right on the computer, you don't even have to write it anymore. You can do a video of it. And guess what That then means that if you start getting to a place where you are opening up a large practice, and you have multiple therapists, and you're going to need multiple folks doing the same thing, you then have video training. So now they're all hearing the same exact training, they're all seeing the same exact thing. And there's no differentiating, oh, well, when Kirk trained me on how to do this. And then when he trained Katie, on how to do this, he did fail to mention this part. And yeah, it's all the same message, all the same content. Those are the two things I would say.
Katie Vernoy 15:37
Yeah, I think the piece that I took from what you just said, and in my in my experience is that people are worried to invest before they start making money. But I think sometimes when you do that, you're able to actually create something that's more sustainable, especially if you're not over investing, I think there was a period of time I was like, I'm doing nothing. And you had mentioned, like delegating everything is probably the wrong idea, too. So maybe you can speak into that different, you know, kind of that differential of delegating what you need to but also recognizing what you don't need to delegate or when when not to delegate.
Bibi Goldstein 16:13
Yeah, you know, I always think of things as sensitivity, right. So if there's something that is sensitive information, like in, in, in some of the cases of some therapists, if you're doing transcription of notes from a session with the client, it's probably something that I would be careful in how and who you delegate that to. Sure, right? If it's something that requires someone to have personal information, like social security numbers, or bank account information, or things like that, you know, I'm going to use the example again, with bookkeeping, because we don't actually have access to that information. It's all connected to the system, but we don't have actual access to it, we can never, we don't go into the bank account and, and are able to transfer money or anything. So that's, it's those are the kinds of things that I want people to think about is that those are things that I would hold on to, you know, a little bit longer in my business until there was like, enough growth that required that, hey, I need to hand this off to somebody now. And it's time to hand that off to somebody doing payroll, having those kinds of just sensitivity information. But yeah, I think that also one of the things that you can look at, when, when you're scaling, when you're growing, and building your business, that you can actually be still in that, that role of being your the business owner and do some of the administrative tasks, if that's what makes you happy, I'm going to go back to that over and over again, is that don't take away something just because you think you should delegate it. And I can't speak for the people outside of who I know that I've experienced this, myself included is that sometimes when we get into this, like what you just mentioned, Katie of, of delegating everything, you kind of lose touch with what's happening. And you don't want that. If you want to be connected, you need to have still some connection and still continue to do these things. You know, one of my greatest joys is depositing checks. Go Go pick up the deposit. Right? Makes me happy?
Katie Vernoy 18:32
Yeah, yeah. I think the thing that we're talking kind of a little bit and around. And so let's get specific to it is this idea of automating what you can automate delegating what you can delegate and eliminating what you can eliminate. And I think being able to distinguish between those three, and then also the things that you keep, I think that becomes the assessment that becomes really hard for folks. And what you probably don't see because you're not in these Facebook groups with all these therapists is that there's a lot of shoulds, you should be doing this yourself, or you should be delegating it. And so not shelling the automating delegating and eliminating, like, how does someone do a quick assessment of that when they're when they're looking at their tasks.
Bibi Goldstein 19:16
So there's a ton of automation out there. And I just want to kind of touch on on that. Because there's, I think that there is also this myth that everybody thinks you have to hire a person, you have to hire labor to take something on. And that's not the case. I mean, there's so much technology, there's so many apps out there, there's so many things that can take on some of the things that you're looking to do, but I'm going to go super, super simple for you. Perfect, perfect game. I developed a program long time ago called 15 minutes from overwhelmed to organized, okay. And one of the things that we did in that was we created a document that simply had a happy face and a sad face and a line down the middle of it. Okay, and when Encouraged in that program for people to, to sit down and on a weekly basis, have that and start to document those things, those specific tasks on whether it's the happy face or the sad face of those of what they're doing. Because then obviously everything that's under the sad face, we can start to figure out, can we automate it? Can we delegate it? Can we simplify it? Or can we eliminate it? Okay. And those were always our four buckets. And once we, once you have it actually written down, it's easier to figure out that, wait, why am I doing this? I don't necessarily need to do this, because I can skip this step, and go directly to this to this other step. And so then that can be eliminated from one of the tasks but because, you know, we're creatures of habit. Yeah, I've been doing it that way forever. You know, it always reminds me of the story of the pot roast, I don't know.
Curt Widhalm 21:01
Now you got to go into that story.
Bibi Goldstein 21:05
The pot roast of, of why they would cut or the ham where, where they would cut off the ends of it, and put it into the pan. And they would say, Oh, my mom used to do it that way. So then they would go and ask the mom and then they they go down the line, they figure out that it was because grandma didn't have pan big enough. And that's why she cut off the ends for no other reason. But everybody
Katie Vernoy 21:27
was wasting a whole bunch of meat. Because that's how it's always been done. Okay?
Bibi Goldstein 21:34
So, because that's how it's always been done. And that's the thing that we continue to do in our businesses, we do it in our lives, we do it everywhere. But we but finding those places that you're just doing them because you've done it forever that way, doesn't mean that that's what that that's that it has to continue that way, right. So finding those automation pieces. One of my greatest greatest automation success stories was a client who was a therapist who used to schedule all of her appointments via text message.
Katie Vernoy 22:11
There's many who still do this, this is a really good example baby.
Bibi Goldstein 22:16
So we it took it took about a good 60 days and a lot of pushing and pulling with her to really start to see the benefit of it. And we put in an automated scheduling link. And we created it so that it went via text message. And it had a link for them to reschedule. It didn't allow them to reschedule within a certain amount of time. It it when they scheduled. One of the other things that she absolutely loved that when they scheduled, they also paid. So she didn't have to worry about sending them an invoice. She didn't have to worry about any of that stuff. And I will tell you, she's an example for me that I use often with testimonials, because she sent me one of the most beautiful notes, she had ultimately ended up moving out of the area. And she said, I don't know what I would have done. And how I would have been able to grow my business the way that I did. She was able to add, I think 11 new patients to her practice within the first 90 days, by doing those simple things, just making it easier to schedule, just making it easier to schedule, taking herself out of the equation of scheduling and allowing for her to be fully present, instead of having to worry about payment and collecting payment at the time of the session. Wow.
Curt Widhalm 23:45
What you're talking to here is also added benefits for the clients of not having to wait for somebody to get out of session to be able to return phone calls or worrying about the time of days. If I get out of session at eight o'clock at night, is it appropriate to be calling people back after that and being able to, like you said at the beginning of the episode, do the things that make you money, do the things that you enjoy and to have this not just as benefit for yourself but also for the clients that you serve?
Bibi Goldstein 24:16
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I applaud what you guys do for for a living, it's to me not something that I could do. But I also know that there are people in the world who can't do what I do. Right and that's why it's important that if you can stay in that place of being the support for them without having to worry about all the other stuff. It's it's so true Crt, you know, being there and being present for them in that capacity is probably easier than trying to think about I was supposed to return that while you're you know with somebody or you come out to from a session. If you are somebody who can stay fully present with someone, you come out from a session and all of a sudden you've got, you know, 1520 text messages and messages that you've got to answer.
Katie Vernoy 25:09
Yeah, I think the the level of overwhelm that a lot of therapists will put up with for a long time. And whether it's bookkeeping, or scheduling or billing or any of these other things that have to be done, but don't necessarily have to be done by you. It blows me away, because there's this hesitancy to spend some money on it. But I've also had folks say, well, it's such a mass, I would hate to have someone else do it. I would hate to put that on someone else. And what you just said about what you do well, and what we do well, like, can you convince folks that you actually want to clean their stuff up?
Curt Widhalm 25:48
And that they should get over the embarrassment of like, here's how far behind I am? And I don't want to admit this to everybody. Well,
Bibi Goldstein 25:55
it's kind of like when the the cleaning people come, right, everybody, everybody picks up before the cleaning people come, but there's not the whole reason why you hired them. Yep. Right now, they're good at what they do. So let's let them do what they're good at. And the fact is, is that more and more for me, it's become easier just and that's just because of experience and time and being able to get people to understand that it's not about judgment, it's about creating space, right? So when we create space, we create space for ourselves, to do the things that we need to do in our life. I do the same thing in my business. Now, I don't do client facing work on Fridays, I have blocked off my entire day on Friday, so that I could create space in order to continue to work on my business, or you know what, go get my hair done, go get my nails done, do whatever the whatever I want to do in that moment, right? So the The fact of the matter is, is taking getting people to take that first step and not thinking about what it looks like. We love it. I love what what Katie said about you know that, that, that I we do enjoy cleaning up messes. That's just Unfortunately, the case, but it's super satisfying. Yeah, I was just reading a statistic about the pimple doctor, right? Like how people love those videos. And I'm like, it's so gross to me. And I could never do that. But people are so focused on those things, right? You like, it's this feeling of satisfaction for somebody, for, for me, and for my team, when we can take something from what was considered tangled and a mess, and create something from it, that gives somebody that I'm going to sit back in my seat and take a deep breath and go, Wow, I didn't think that was possible. It's huge, especially automation. You know, client intake is a big part of what you guys do, you know, processing that whole. I will tell you one of my biggest pet peeves of going to a new doctor or going someplace is that when the first thing when you sit down, you got to spend the first 10 minutes filling out those forms. Yeah. Right. And it's like, well, wait a second, why can't you make the process so much easier by having those forms, be online forms, have them fill them out, they can print them, sign them, and bring them in with them so that they aren't spending that first few minutes doing that. There's little things like that, and how my team's brains work that they can see that sometimes people can't see in their own business.
Katie Vernoy 28:52
And I think it really speaks to just a very different level of expertise and not even knowing what they don't know, you know, simplifying within your business, automating delegating, eliminating hiring folks to do things like that's just so out of the realm. And so I think it's something where people really understanding how a VA company works can be very helpful because I think oftentimes they're like, Hey, I'm going to have my friend like, do something and they need a couple extra bucks. And then you've got you don't have the expertise behind it, or you have to train them and you're training them on the inefficient system that you had created. So you want to you want that expertise. But I guess this is just a very long way around to asking, why did you create a VA company? What does your company look like for getting to that point of are going to ask where people can find you, but like, tell us a little bit more about what that actually looks like for Buying Time.
Bibi Goldstein 29:45
So Buying Time has been around since 2007. There was a lot of different types of conversation but we started as a like a personal assistant service, I will say it was more in the realm of we used to walk dogs, buy groceries. You know, do Those kinds of things. And over the years, and the main reason why we started it even was we start I started to do some research I was working for in the transportation and logistics business. That was my career for 20 plus years, I worked as a regional manager, and I traveled a lot. And when I traveled, I have four siblings. But we all kind of took our own sense of responsibilities with my mom, when when my dad passed away, and my mom, being an immigrant, didn't deal with a lot of the financial stuff. And so she had written checks that were too large utility companies and things like that. And we were just trying to find somebody to help her because she, we had had to take her license away, and she couldn't do some of these things on our own. And that started me on this trajectory of Wait a second. There's nobody out here that does stuff like this. So that's how this company started. Fast forward, we ended up with a client who is an attorney, who was like, Can you help me with PowerPoints? And I'm like, Yeah, I used to do that all the time. And then I, but I found all of these things, you know that, and I did not know that the virtual assistant universe existed. And that's how I found it. So I we fast forward to transitioning to 100%, virtual wi today, which used to just consist of a couple of us, and a cell phone is now a team of we're up to 12 of us now. Wow. And we have every type of support from customer service, email management, bookkeeping, automation specialists. We have a web developer, we have a graphic designer, we have project managers, we have people who specialize in what they specialize in. And then myself, who I love doing strategy with clients, I love helping them figure out, you know, what, Curt was asking, Where do I start? How do I get something out there? So that's really how this kind of became born. And today, this business looks so different than I had ever imagined it could be, right? Yeah, I wanted something that allowed for me to continue to support people. Because Katie, as you know, giving back to my community and being a part of some of our local nonprofits, my husband Oh, is a part of a nonprofit, like, there's so many organizations for me that are huge here in the South Bay that I love to support. But I like to support them with my time and my expertise as much as I support them with my dollars. That's important to me. So I really created that and I'm, I'm a very vocal person when it comes to women's issues in general. I so disheartened with what's happening right now in the world, with so many women unable to work. It's there's just there's a lot of things I think that we can do as, as an organization, my company donates a ton of my team's time to these nonprofits. So the company itself is has really kind of evolved into exactly what I want it to be now, in that place of being able to support people who have the means to be able to have that support in order to support the people who don't,
Curt Widhalm 33:33
Where can people find out more about you and the services you provide.
Bibi Goldstein 33:37
They can go to our website buyingtimellc.com or there they can actually email into our team as well service at buyingtimeLLC.com or they can check out our new passion project, virtualassistantsuniversity.com.
Katie Vernoy 33:56
Tell us just a tiny bit about Virtual Assistants University.
Bibi Goldstein 34:01
So Virtual Assistants University is this thing that came from the whole idea of what's happened right now with women being out of work, we wanted to create an opportunity for people to take an embrace their own destiny, not rely on someone else. And the virtual assistant world continues to grow in a lot of ways. And I think that we're going to see a huge shift with many people. And so we created this university that allows for people to have support curriculum, and, and the ability to have a resource to build their own virtual assistant company. And that was something for me that was hugely important in that creating opportunities for people to take their skill sets. Because not everybody who comes to us is our cup of tea and we're not everybody else's cup of tea, right? So that's why there's so many beers out there. And there Are people who really want that one on one, they don't want a full team. Like, like what I've built, they want a one on one VA and we want to build as many of those as we can and help to support them. They have Lifetime support with us in our Facebook group so that they can build that business the way they want to. So that's it's very, very new, very new. We're, we're, it's a passion project for me right now.
Curt Widhalm 35:28
We will include links to all of the stuff in our show notes. You can find those over at MTSGpodcast.com. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Bibi Goldstein.
Katie Vernoy 35:39
Thanks again to our sponsor Turning Point,
Curt Widhalm 35:42
We wanted to tell you a little bit more about our sponsor Turning Point. Turning Point is a financial planning firm that's focused exclusively on serving mental health professionals to help you navigate all the important elements of your personal finances like budgeting, investing, selecting retirement plans, managing student loan debts and evaluating big purchases, like your first home. And because they specialize in serving therapists and private practice, so help you navigate the finances of your practice as well. To help you navigate bookkeeping, analyze the financial implications of changes, like hiring clinicians or diversifying your income sources will even help you consider strategies like S corp tax election,
Katie Vernoy 36:20
And for listeners of MTSG you'll receive 30% off the price of their quickstart coaching intensive just enter promo code modern therapist when signing up. And don't forget to visit TurningPointhq.com to download your free finance quickstart guide for therapists. Thank
Announcer 36:37
you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
The Return of Why Therapists Quit Curt and Katie chat about how therapists can maintain joy in their practice when they begin to feel burned out. We explore different ways to incorporate self-care into your life and practice, including making future plans and developing your whole identity. We also talk about how privilege impacts therapists’ ability to engage in self-care and career opportunities.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Discussion of why Katie has not quit the field. * Fighting burnout by focusing on what brings you joy in your practice (the Marie Kondo approach). * The importance of self-care and incorporating new hobbies/interests into your life. * Assessing the distinction between “not great days” and a “not great workplace”. * Considering privilege in the ability for therapists to engage in self-care as well as career opportunities. * The impact COVID has had on therapist’s being able to participate in self-care. * Learning how to incorporate time to make plans for future career goals. * How to notice burnout and sacrificial helping. * The importance of fostering all aspects of your identity (because you are not your job).
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what’s most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only. Go to simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
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You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, RevKey provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Marie Kondo
Steven Covey's Big Rocks
Relevant Episodes:
Why Therapists Quit
Why Therapists Quit Part 2
Burnout or Depression
We Can’t Help Ourselves
Quarantine Self-Care for Therapists
The Danger of Poor Self-Care for Therapists
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset
Career Trekking with MTSG
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
Katie Vernoy 00:02
Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding SimplePractice changes that this practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important your clients by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
Curt Widhalm 00:18
Stick around for a special offer at the end of this episode.
Katie Vernoy 00:23
This podcast is also sponsored by RevKey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
RevKey is a Google Ads digital ads management and consulting firm that works primarily with therapists digital advertising is all they do, and they know their stuff. When you work with RevKey they help the right patients find you ensuring a higher return on your investment in digital advertising. RevKey offers flexible month to month plans and never locks customers into long term contracts.
Katie Vernoy 00:48
Listen at the end of the episode for more information on RevKey.
Announcer 00:53
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:09
Welcome back Modern Therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about all sorts of stuff things that we do things that we don't do, things that our profession does for us. Katie's giving me the work that I'm still not back into good episode intros. We're starting today with a little bit of feedback from one of our listeners, we got a message on our Facebook account from Jennifer. I'm gonna paraphrase a little bit of this. Jennifer writes, hi, Katie. And Curt, this love letter is well overdue. I earned my Master's in 2018. I was a relative newbie therapist when the pandemic hit. And I've been providing telehealth to a lot of my clients and been struggling with some stuff. I'm paraphrasing here. And one day I found your podcast, appreciate a lot of the things that we talked about. And just as things were starting to feel good, like the world was opening back up, again, the Delta variant hit. And especially in response to some of our episodes, looking for a little bit of a hope here of how do we keep going? How do we not just fall into those traps and things like our episode around why therapists quit? How do we survive in our careers and not just wanting to give up and go and be in any other profession? Katie, why haven't you quit yet?
Katie Vernoy 02:57
I think I have several times. I think that the the definition of quitting can be very different for folks, I've not left the profession. So maybe that's the accurate thing. But I left community mental health, I've switched my private practice a number of times I've worked in the profession and more of an advocacy framework. And so the first thing that I would say is I've not seen it as a single career that has one particular path, but instead a an evolution of how I work and how I interact with the work and where I find my place in it. So I think the short answer is I keep assessing myself and the work and trying to realign it pretty frequently. Actually,
Curt Widhalm 03:50
I would describe my approach is kind of the Marie Kondo approach, does this part of my job bring me joy. And what I've found and this does come with some experience in the fields, some longevity, some being in some positions where I can cut out or throw away some of the aspects that just no longer feel like they are bringing joy to me bringing me back into the profession. But a lot of that permission for me, comes with community. It comes with being around a lot of like minded therapists that give the permission and the support, to be able to take some of those leaps to be able to recognize that the safety of something being done just because I've always been doing it that way. And it can be let go. It can be something where if it doesn't emotionally pay off, it doesn't monetarily pay off for me that it's something that I don't have to be beholden to forever. And I say this as somebody who is very much Are you a completionist? Somebody who likes to finish video games to 100% to not give up on things in the middle that, for me, a lot of it does come from having the permission given to myself to not stay stuck in things just because it's, it's there. And it's what has been.
Katie Vernoy 05:25
I like that because it provides this ongoing assessment of what brings me joy, like Marie Kondo, but it also is not sticking to something, you know, this is the sunk cost fallacy, like, just because I've started it just because I've invested invested time or money in it doesn't mean that I need to go down this direct path. And I think that can be really hard. Because if you've invested in a lot of time and energy into a specific niche, for example, you've you've networked and created relationships. And I think for you this was around autism, right? You did a lot of networking, and there was a lot there, and you still work with with autistic clients. But I think there's that, that element of once that was not your area of focus, she moved back. I've done that with trauma work. I've done that with, you know, trauma survivors and different things in that way. But I think that being able to identify what doesn't bring me joy anymore, what doesn't seem this sounds a little bit mercenary, I guess. But what isn't bringing the return on investment that you would like whether it's an emotional return on investment or a financial one, I think being able to drop those things can be really good. I actually, when I talk to consulting clients about this, because this is one of the things that is a big conversation, especially for mid career therapists is if you started from scratch, you know, what would you put back in? And I guess this is Marie Kondo. So maybe this isn't that earth shattering. But even just taking away your whole schedule, like everything is off the table, and you start from scratch, and you only put the things back in that really energize you bring you revenue, which may not energize you do the things that you're required to do. And whether it's Stephen Covey's big rocks, or or some of these other concepts of really sticking to the highest priorities, and only allowing them back in can be very helpful. And oftentimes, we can't do it like, next week, oftentimes, it's like, okay, let's look at next year. So three months from now, your schedule is now fresh, you might put clients back in the same time slots, but you may not you may put them at different times of day, you may not have all the same clients, because some of those clients are emotionally draining you in a way that you recognize that you're probably not doing your best work with them. But I think being able to take away those things that aren't working, no matter how much time and effort you put into them, no matter how much you feel like that's what you should do, I think can be very helpful. I mean, there's practical things to think about, you know, income and all of those things. So this is more of a high level philosophical conversation than a practical one, in this moment, but I think, actually starting from scratch, in your mind, you don't have to burn everything down. But like, doing the thought experiment of starting from scratch, I think can be very helpful.
Curt Widhalm 08:24
On one hand, the need for mental health and mental health related services seems to be at an all time high, as far as coming out of the pandemic fingers crossed that we're coming out of it. But the the need for mental health and mental health related services is quite high. And with that, at least at this point in the foreseeable future, and comes a little bit more freedom to be able to take some risks, because the need for mental health service providers is going to remain strong for quite a while here. And so it's not like we're in a situation where if we were to leave, you know, an agency stop a practice or something like that, to go and explore something new. That it would necessarily be something where you can't go back, that there is some overall professional job security here. And we're seeing this expand just beyond the traditional, providing direct services to clients and a number of different ways, whether that's entrepreneurial yourself and maybe moving into more coaching program type things or courses, courses or any of those kinds of reaching stuff. Yeah, I've never seen more positions in corporate environments that are requiring people to have a mental health background to come in. And so there is a lot of options out there that you can take advantage of and think gets our fear of losing what we have that often keeps us subjected to staying into the same positions over and over again. And to Katie's point, this also does require some thoughtfulness and some planning, this can't just be like an impulsive, like, I had a bad day at work on Thursday and Friday, I'm going to accept a job wherever offers next. So one of the things that I occasionally get a question from clients is, you know, would you care for me if I wasn't paying for your time. And my answer to that is usually, the some version of my care exists, because I care for you, as a human being, a lot of what you're paying for is, for my experience, any wisdom that I'm able to bring, and most of all, that you're ensuring that I'm prepared, that I'm taking care of my life enough that I am ready for the sessions to be able to take on what you're bringing in, what you're paying for is the thoughtfulness in the preparation for our time together for that character come out. And it's with that same kind of intention that I'm looking at this kind of a question of, its being able to put that kind of thoughtfulness in place for yourself, to be able to be in a position where you're able to make a shift to continue to take care of yourself. And if you can see beyond, you know, a bad experience with a couple of clients, you can see beyond a bad experience with a supervisor or toxic co worker or a mountain of paperwork, whatever it is, and say, you know, overall, this was a bad day. But this is still an environment where I can continue to show up and have that care, as I define it for myself, does help to answer some of that question when it comes to how do we stick with some of these things? I'm not great days.
Katie Vernoy 12:09
I like the distinction between not great days, and not great work environments. I think, if the not great days stack up, it could be that it's not great work environment, or it could be that you've chosen something that aligns when you're fully resourced and doesn't align when you're not. And so some of this and we have a lot of different episodes on systems of self care or addressing burnout, or is it burnout or depression, like we have a lot of different episodes that can talk about addressing burnout specifically. And, and some of that is being in the wrong place. But some of it really is working without that thoughtfulness, and the deliberateness that Curt's talking about with taking care of yourself so that you can continue to show up. I want to extend that even further. Because I think, folks, and maybe this is a very Western idea or something that's, that's very present in the United States. But I think folks have this notion around, I have to be growing and expanding and getting better and creating the next big thing. And I have to keep increasing my revenue, or you know, those types of things. And I think when, when we see it rather as seasonal, or seasons of our career, I think that can be helpful. I was talking to a dear colleague recently, and she was talking about coming out of a toxic work environment and basically, not cruising, and I wouldn't say it was that but like, creating something that was very doable. There wasn't challenged, there wasn't growth, and I'm overstating it to make the point. But it was something where there was restfulness, in how she chose to do her work, you know, the client, she chose to work with the time she spent on the work, she was very, very deliberate in charging premium fee. So there was fewer clients and creating that space. And then after that timeframe, when she felt rejuvenated and ready to tackle the next big thing, she found another job and then was able to take on another piece of things in our profession. And so I really like that concept. Because there are a lot of folks who will be burnt out or they'll be ready to quit. And instead of taking care of themselves, they'll jump into programs that are designed to be a lot of work to get to some place in the in the future. You know, like, do all this work and make a lot of money. And when someone's burned out or when someone's ready to quit, they may not have those reserves. And so you have to assess that for yourself. But if you don't have reserves, you don't necessarily have to make drastic changes. You may just have to back off a little bit and refocus on your life for a while rather than your career. If you can do the work, you can set your set your career in a doable space. Does that make sense?
Curt Widhalm 15:07
Does. I wonder how much of this is really just coming from a place of privilege, though. But absolutely for those of us who have survived, as long as we have, we talked about this in our state of the profession episode this summer that a lot of the younger therapists as compared to other age, demographic, tripling, maybe I don't want to stay in this profession. And that's going to come at a time when you don't have a lifetime of savings built up. But you are more sensitive to having to work unpaid or underpaid jobs, that you might not be in a position to make some of these decisions where your responsibilities to family might be a lot bigger proportion of your life, especially if you have young children. So creating the space in here also for those, and remembering back to the time in our lives where we weren't quite so privileged to be making some of these decisions. I know in leaving the agencies that I did at the times that I did, and being unhappy in some of the work environments, I don't think I ever felt that I was in the wrong field completely. It was very much recognizing that there are good places and good opportunities that I was doing what I wanted to do in creating healing in the world. It was just not in that particular environment. And it was recognizing that one agency is not representative of all agencies. And part of that perspective, once again, comes back to community, it comes back to the ability to have trusted peers have, you know, your own therapy to not think about therapy all day long to have other hobbies and interests that go and make you you. And I recognize particularly for this, you know, last year and a half during the pandemic, that a lot of people's abilities to go and do things that aren't therapy have been shut down. And a lot of us filled in that extra time with more work. And so, you know, we've been talking about this, the faculty level at the university that I teach in that one of the issues that we're anticipating with students is how much that they're used to working now, and being able to accrue their hours towards graduation and licensure by being able to fit in more, because everything's over telehealth. And when we inevitably returned to more of a program wide face to face role in things that students are going to have a shift in and struggle with house, how much slower things are going to be accruing for them. I say all this to say that it's really being able to take that step outside of yourself, which requires downtime, which requires an ability to get a different viewpoint on what you're doing, not in the sense of making what is happening around you. Okay. But doing it in a sense of Are you okay with what's happening around you?
Katie Vernoy 18:36
when we're looking at self assessment, I agree, we need to have downtime, we need to have space. And as you were talking, I was really resonating with this concept around privilege, and how at different stages of your career at different places in your life are different socioeconomic status, different societal pressures and levels of oppression, like I think that this challenge is going to be different for different folks. And so in looking at that, and looking at having some downtime to make an assessment, or looking at finding ways to make your agency job better, or finding ways to make your career more sustainable, I think we have to really honor that when you're feeling stuck. When you see no other way to do what you're doing. It's very hard to do any of this. And so, if we can't get any space at all, I think it's going to be very hard for people to not quit. And when I've been in those situations, whether it was when I was in an agency job or just other periods of my life. I think the way that I didn't quit when I didn't quit was finding the smallest space that I could preserve from my own. Or maybe maybe It's better said a small space, but the biggest space that I could preserve for my own to plan for what I did next, whether it's doing that assessment and finding out whether you're able to do what you want to do and the place that you're at, but also to have your exit plan, because I worked in community mental health, and I did not feel like I could just quit and start a private practice and do all the things like I wasn't able to do that I wasn't able to take that on that financial risk on. So for me, it was carving out a little tiny piece of time, where I started figuring out what I needed to do to start a private practice. And I started figuring out what I needed to do to get on insurance panels, or whatever it was, at certain points, it was carving a little bit of time to look for jobs, when I was still wanting to move from place to place and having people around me hold me accountable to finding a new job, I think people get really caught in well, another agency might be just as bad, it doesn't make a difference. And I really argue that that's not necessarily the case. And that you need to talk to your colleagues and your cohorts and that kind of stuff to see what what the experience is because sometimes just taking that little bit of a little bit of time to put in an application or to make a plan for your exit, or whatever it is, can be the way that you stay. Because it gives you a breath of fresh air, like, I'm gonna have my escape hatch. And I think I even called it that when I started my private practice, or when I started applying for other jobs, like I have my escape hatch, and adjustment that I wasn't stuck, there was an endpoint, it was a nebulous endpoint, but it was an endpoint. And I think that does help.
Curt Widhalm 21:44
I have found that, you know, emotionally taking vacations is appropriate. Getting away from work, is as much as our profession as a calling, as much as we're deeply emotionally invested in the work that we do with our clients. And whether we get a return on that emotional investment or not. The end of the day, it's still a job. that it takes a certain kind of ability to show up for that job, as compared to many others takes a certain level of awareness, it takes a lot of ability to care and recharge for yourself. And in a number of our episodes before we've talked about that self care is not an option. Self Care is a discipline. And I can speak for myself on this third, when I go on vacation, I like to completely not deal with work as much as I can to really be separated from it. Even if it's just like one day on a on a weekend of like, here's my day to go spend in the kitchen doing things where there's a beginning, middle and an end. And it's practical and delicious. These are the kinds of things that at least recharged me for the next day of work. It's and this has been particularly hard during COVID of, Oh, well, I got nothing else to do. So I might as well throw another couple clients on my schedule, or I might as well dive into this thing. And then just like anything else we can become so enveloped in whatever our work or what our interests are that it just consumes us and leaves us not wanting to look at it at all. And that's not unique to our profession. It's not even unique to jobs, it can be done with hobbies, it can be done with side hustles. That the key is balance. And it's finding what your right balance is Katie was describing as I'm describing of like taking some intentional rest time away from it.
Katie Vernoy 24:02
I've I've talked to a number of clinicians who had not taken vacations for years. And I would call a day off a day off not necessarily a vacation day, Curt. So I think you also need to take a real vacation, your plate. But I think that there are there are many different reasons people don't take time off work. One is potentially they don't get paid and that that income is needed. And and that's that's relevant. And I think there are different conversations that we've had and we'll link to him in the show notes about money and trying to make sure that you're earning more money and that kind of stuff, and planning your money based around taking vacations. But the other thing that I've really seen is there are folks who either just don't even think about it, they don't plan ahead and they just don't schedule the time away. And I'm not talking like a Caribbean cruise I'm talking about even just staying home and watching Netflix and chilling for a week and not answering your phone, whatever it is, whatever you can afford, actually vacating your work, I think is important. But people won't do it because my clients need me, subconsciously, maybe it's I don't deserve it. And I think and this speaks to and we probably have an episode early on where I talk about sacrificial helping, but it's it's this relationship that we have to ourselves and our work that I think can get in the way. And really being able to address that I think is, you know, what I'm thinking is kind of our last points that we'll make on this is if you're constantly sacrificing yourself, if you're constantly putting yourself in this place where you're doing, doing for your clients, for others in your life, more so than you're doing for yourself. Self Care doesn't necessarily land on your list. And it also doesn't, it's not necessarily sufficient, because you're constantly in this place of less than and of service, and you're not necessarily feeding yourself. And I'm not talking about folks who find great joy and meaning and helping people that is exactly why I'm in the profession. It's that that is who I am, that is all that I am. And I will sacrifice everything else in my life to that purpose. I think that becomes really hard. So when we're in this place, and I think this can happen, when we have clients that are in high crisis, it can happen when especially early in our careers when we're feeling like our clients are very dependent on us and and we think we have to rescue them all. Or maybe that was just that, that that sacrificial piece can come in, and that that's not sustainable by any stretch. And so I think it's important to also I guess, to say, looking at the relationship you have with yourself and the work, and maybe go into back what Curt said like it's a job. It's an awesome job. It's a job that is very meaningful and can be very powerful and make a big difference in the world. But it's your job. It's not who you are. Yeah, it's
Curt Widhalm 27:10
not an identity and your only identity.
Katie Vernoy 27:13
Because we are saying that everybody's modern therapist, so we've given them we've given them an identity point. Okay,
Curt Widhalm 27:21
fair, fair. And since it's not your only identity, it's not the only identity that you should be shaping. It's not the only one that you should be subscribing to. And it's dealing with that imposter syndrome of people who've honed that part of their identities, especially in your early career when you're looking at people who've been in the field 1020 3040 5060 years, that part of how they got there is going through what you're going through now. So form all of your identities,
Katie Vernoy 27:54
spend time with all of them. So
Curt Widhalm 27:59
if you have questions for us or would like to suggest an episode, as you can tell from several of our last episodes, we are responding to our listeners. And you can reach out to us on our social media or through our websites. MTSGpodcast.com. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy
Katie Vernoy 28:19
thanks again to our sponsor SimplePractice.
Curt Widhalm 28:21
SimplePractice is the leading private practice management platform for private practitioners everywhere. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice to power telehealth sessions schedule appointments, file insurance claims market, their practice and so much more. All on one HIPAA compliant platform.
Katie Vernoy 28:39
Get your first two months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This is collusive offer is valid for new customers only. Please note that we are a paid affiliate for a SimplePractice so we'll have a little bit of money in our pocket. If you sign up at this link. Simplepractice.com/therapy reimagined. And that's where you can learn more.
Curt Widhalm 29:00
This episode is also sponsored by RevKey.
Katie Vernoy 29:04
RevKey specializes in working with mental health professionals like you to increase not only clicks to your website, but helps you find your ideal patients. From simple startup packages and one time consultations to full Digital Marketing Management Services. RevKey can help you run successful digital marketing ads. RevKey creates customized packages and digital marketing budget recommendations that fit your business needs.
Curt Widhalm 29:28
You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, red key provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
Katie Vernoy 29:44
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener
Announcer 29:51
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Episode 226: How to Fire Your Clients (Ethically) Part 1.5 Curt and Katie chat about different therapist-client mismatches and how to manage them. We explore how to balance dealing with discomfort in therapy and seeking consultation with knowing when and how to refer out clients. We also talk about how to incorporate ideas of redefining and decolonizing therapy.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How to manage situations when the client having a clinical need that the therapist does not feel capable to treat. * Different kinds of therapist-client mismatches. * Cultural considerations in therapist-client matching and incorporating ideas of redefining and decolonizing therapy. * How to refer out clients when there is a mismatch and what to do if the client doesn’t want to be referred out. * What to do when you have different ideologies than your clients. * The benefit of sitting with discomfort when you disagree with your client and knowing when to seek consultation. * How to support clients when they aren’t aware that a different therapeutic style (e.g., direct vs. indirect) may be beneficial to them. * The importance of reviewing treatment plans with client (even when not required). * Revisiting how to address therapy interfering behaviors and how to appropriately terminate with clients when necessary. * Barriers in referring clients out.
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what’s most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only. Go to simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
RevKey RevKey specializes in working with mental health professionals like you to increase not only clicks to your website, but helps you find your ideal patients. From simple startup packages and one time consultations to full Digital Marketing Management Services, RevKey can help you run successful digital marketing ads. RevKey creates customized packages and digital marketing budget recommendations that fit your business needs.
You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, RevKey provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Relevant Episodes:
How to Fire Your Clients (Ethically)
Make Your Paperwork Meaningful
Therapy is a Political Act
The Balance Between Boundaries and Humanity
Is Therapy an Opiate of the Masses?
Ending Therapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
Katie Vernoy 00:02
Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding SimplePractice changes that this practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important your clients by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
Curt Widhalm 00:18
Stick around for a special offer at the end of this episode.
Katie Vernoy 00:23
This podcast is also sponsored by RevKey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
RevKey is a Google Ads digital ads management and consulting firm that works primarily with therapists digital advertising is all they do, and they know their stuff. When you work with RevKey they help the right patients find you ensuring a higher return on your investment in digital advertising. RevKey offers flexible month to month plans and never locks customers into long term contracts.
Katie Vernoy 00:49
Listen at the end of the episode for more information on RevKey.
Announcer 00:53
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:08
Welcome back modern therapists This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast where we talk about all things therapists and picking up on last week's episode responding to user reviews, we felt the food getting a little more nuanced and a couple of things. But this review sparked a couple of ideas, check out last week's episode about therapy interfering behaviors. We also wanted to dive into a little bit more of the firing clients maybe terminating prematurely before clients end up getting to their goals, we might want to call this episode firing your clients ethically, Part 1.5. Like it's cuz this does help us dive into a little bit more of some situations where this comes up. We'll talk about this from a clinical approach. We'll talk about this as far as broadly, some of the ways that I've heard ethics committees talk about bad therapy when clients have felt abandoned by therapists, this kind of stuff. So Katie, and I wanted to talk about what are some times where we've heard therapists, quote, unquote, firing their clients looking to terminate prematurely referring out, etc. So Katie, what is first on our list today,
Katie Vernoy 02:37
the most frequent one that I've seen that I've experienced is this idea of a client having a clinical need that either pops up or was on assessed, you know, wasn't appropriately assessed at the beginning, that I don't feel capable to handle. And I see this a lot, where folks will say, well, this person has psychosis or they have an eating disorder, or they have substance abuse, or they have something and I'm not an expert in it. And so I am going to refer them out. And there have been times when I've chosen to refer out and there have been times when I have kept the clients and, and created a treatment team around myself so that there was expertise present. But I see that a lot. I think people get very worried, and sometimes with good reason that if they keep a client for whom they don't have the appropriate clinical expertise, that they will be hurting the client. And so they then terminate the client, which can mean that the client feels abandoned because they have, especially if they've already developed a relationship with you, or if they had difficulty finding a therapist in the first place. And there's not great referrals. So I think that's potentially where we start is when a therapist feels like this is not my expertise. But they've already shown up in your office, either for one session or for 10 sessions. And this is a new clinical issue that pops
Curt Widhalm 03:57
- So Katie and I, before recording today, we were talking about a couple of different areas where this has come up in our careers. And part of managing some of these particular situations is having honest discussions with clients. This might be something where it's a lot easier when it's in those first couple of sessions of, Hey, we don't have a real strong therapeutic relationship. But I don't have the skills to be able to help with the goals that you're coming in here with and especially if there may be more high risk or specialized sort of treatments you brought up about eating disorders before the show was recording here. These get a little bit trickier when you're much deeper into relationships with clubs. And for instance, eating disorders that show up in clients after a couple of years of treatment where you have a very strong relationship with a client and it might be outside of your wheelhouse. I've had a couple of clients that I've worked with for a very long time that have eventually started exploring transgender identities and things that are not necessarily within the specifics of my specialties. But feeling the confidence in a therapeutic relationship and knowing what it's like working with me over the long term to begin to explore some of these new identities. And I think, in the way that Katie and I have talked about this is a lot of times, it's not necessarily firing those clients, but it's helping to be able to develop a treatment team of specialists around who's working with those clients to be able to help the clients reach their goals, while also still having the emotional space and the trust in the relationship that they know that they're going to be taken care of.
Katie Vernoy 05:57
For me, I see it as a very attachment based style of therapy that I do, because I think I do longer term therapy, it's very relationship based. And so if I can't be the expert in the room with my clients, I act as a trusted person in their life who's going to figure it out. And I'm going to get the right people around them. And I'm going to advocate for them. Some of this comes from my history of doing more on the kind of social work and of pulling together treatment teams and resources and advocating for my clients. But there are a number of times throughout my career where something has come into my client's life, we have a very strong relationship, and I start doing research, I start gathering people around them. And the work that I do may be impacted by that there may be things that I bring in that is relevant to that particular treatment issue. But it may also be just me talking with them about like, how's it going with a specialist? How are you taking care of yourself? What do I need to know to support you during this time? You know, it's it's something where it has to be within the relationship because a brand new client having to tell you what they need, doesn't feel appropriate, but a client that's been with you for years and has this new issue that they're facing, I think it would be pretty bad. If you were to say, Okay, I'm out, because I don't know about this. So you're on your own, because people are not just these new treatment issues are not just diagnoses.
Curt Widhalm 07:27
And what you're describing There is also getting your own consultation and learning and developing some new skill sets alongside of that, it's not always going to be possible to out of the blue be able to develop a new best practices sort of treatment for these kinds of clients. And that's where handling these difficulties. I think we've discussed this in enough episodes before and just kind of a general enough knowledge within the community that we can move on to our next thing on the list here.
Katie Vernoy 07:59
So one more, I think clients often opt out. But I think sometimes for especially those therapist pleasing clients therapist might have to do it is a therapist like relationship mismatch, that there's something in the relationship that just seems to be getting in the way of the treatment being successful.
Curt Widhalm 08:20
And so sometimes this can be personality wise, this can be things where the agreement on what the treatment plan is, isn't the same. It might be things that a client is particularly hoping can be addressed in therapy that the therapist doesn't or won't work on. And maybe to give an idea of something like this is if a black client is showing up to therapy with issues of depression and wants to talk about some of the systemic causes, especially in the news here in the last couple of years and issues related to that as being part of the causes towards the particular depressive symptoms of this client. With the therapist only wanting to focus on things like medication adherence and behavioral activation techniques that don't necessarily take into account what the client is asking for in those therapeutic sessions. This has the potential of being in one of those areas where clients asking for something a therapist isn't providing. As it's described, this isn't really bad therapy. It's technically sound by using evidence based practices here. But I'd be hesitant to call this good therapy by any means because the client is expressing a desire to be exploring something with the therapist is completely sidestepping.
Katie Vernoy 09:51
I think when we look at it that way, this is where folks come talking about redefining therapy or decolonizing therapy. I think there are arguments, that's pretty bad therapy, when a client clearly is bringing in things that they would like to address, and the therapist is refusing to talk about them, and not seeking any insight from the client on their methods of healing. And so we'll link to a couple episodes in the show notes that kind of talk more specifically about how you can talk more about those types of issues if those that's what your clients seeking out, but yes, I don't think it's unethical or illegal therapy. But
Curt Widhalm 10:28
I do. And that's, that's the wording that that I should use here is that not that particular example. But some of the ethics committee discussions that I see from time to time fall into categories like this, where a client is asking for something very, very specific that the therapist is not addressing, that doesn't go against an ethics code, it doesn't go against a legal statute that falls under this category of just a really bad client therapist match. And I agree that with redefining therapy, reimagining therapy, that decolonizing therapy, by those definitions, that is bad therapy. Yeah. For me, legal and ethical standpoint, there are no legal or ethical codes that define it as such. And so sometimes we'll see client complaints about this that, you know, from a decolonizing, or a reimagining standpoint, would find frustration with that therapist not being investigated not being seen as a, somebody contributing to bad therapy, it's because the rules of law, the rules of ethics don't have anything to investigate those against and therefore there's no punishment to be given, if there's no rule against it.
Katie Vernoy 12:01
My hope is that if someone had that type of a complaint, rather than putting up a huge defensive structure, that they would actually look at what that mismatch was, because to me, I feel like there are clients who need that seeing that being known to be able to make any progress in therapy. And I think sometimes those clients will opt out and recognize that this therapist is not seeing me not potentially even doing some micro aggressions or macro aggressions like it could be something where the mismatches big and I think, bordering on unethical, although I don't know that I have a code. So I won't I won't go that far. But I think that the problem is that some clients, especially clients who have been, who have identities that have been traditionally marginalized, I think they may not know that anyone would be any different. And so my hope is that if a therapist is getting any kind of feedback, or having that push back, that they would make that referral to someone who could have those conversations, I just don't feel convinced that that's going to be the case, I feel like that could be a missed, you know, kind of blank spot in their education and their self awareness.
Curt Widhalm 13:14
At best, it's in that missed blank spot. You know, there are therapists that we have to admit that are out there who will actively go against and argue against that. And those cases, would be very bad therapy. And this is looking at some of those situations too. And this falls across ideological spectrums, here. But when you get into imposing values onto clients, for not believing in whatever it is that you believe, that is bad therapy, especially to the clients perspective, now, I think we're way off of where this episode's focus is supposed to be, as far as when those situations come up from the therapist side of things, you know, give you the credit as a listener here, that you're not imposing your values on the clients here, but when those clients do bring up opposite ideas of how you practice, the show here, we're big advocates of putting your values out there of kinds of work that you do so that way clients can self select in, but sometimes you're gonna end up with clients who don't match up with those things, stances on vaccine mandates, mascot mandates, these kinds of things that a lot of people are gonna have a lot of different ideas about, that this might be a mismatch. It's not something that can necessarily be ignored, but it's not necessarily something that's the place of therapeutic focus. Or is it?
Katie Vernoy 14:49
I mean, I think it's client by client and therapist by therapist, I think the to get us back into how to ethically fire your clients part 1.5 or whatever. We're going to call I think the assessment of is this ideological difference, this mismatch sufficient that you believe you cannot do effective therapy with this client, and then referring them out appropriately, I think is important, but I chose so
Curt Widhalm 15:14
in your mind, how does that referral work? Like, Hey, I think you're an idiot for this thing that doesn't have anything to do with you coming in, like, how do you see those referral conversations going?
Katie Vernoy 15:30
I am not referring someone out because they have an ideological difference. But if they're wanting to talk about things that I have absolutely no experience about, you know, or I don't have a space to you know, I don't feel comfortable in that space. And it's not something that I want to subject them to, as I find my footing, I might say, Hey, I'm noticing that these are the types of things that you're wanting to talk about. And it's outside my my area of expertise. So I want to connect you with somebody for whom that is an area of expertise. And
Curt Widhalm 16:01
if that client says, Now I like you enough, we can we can teach you
Katie Vernoy 16:06
taking that question. I mean, that is that that is harder, because I don't want to abandon my client. I don't want to be in a place where I'm allowing my own, you know, ideological things to get in the way. But if it's truly an ideological difference, whether it's about political ideology, or something along the lines of vaccinations or different things, you know, the things that I may have a strong opinion about, but my clients either have a strong other opinion, or I think the one most recently, it's been kind of vaccine hesitation, I most of my clients are vaccinated, some are not. And for me, I think what I end up doing is I follow the lead of the client, and I work to identify where their mind is, and try to understand them. And that doesn't require an ideological knowledge. Just trying to understand their perspective and look at it doesn't require an ideological knowledge. And I try to determine, do I need to know more about this in order to work with them? Or is is it central? Or is it not central?
Curt Widhalm 17:10
So for those clients that continue to bring things up, because occasionally I'll get clients on the US ideological stance that are just kind of my rights to not get vaccinated? clients? They will, I don't know, get emotionally momentum going in a direction that even an exploring where you're going here, that they'll start to maybe rope you in with like, you know what I'm talking about, right? Don't you agree that people's rights are important? That, you know, are these half sort of things? Do you step in at those times, knowing that you're sitting there being like, I don't agree with literally anything that you're saying right
Katie Vernoy 17:54
now. I think what I've done at different points, sometimes I'll go to psychoeducation. And say, I'm hearing you and I hear that you're saying this, one thing that I'm reading is is this. And so sometimes I'll go to a Hey, let me just add a little bit little tidbit not say like, Oh, well, I think you're totally wrong, but go to like a tidbit of, you know, I actually did that or, or even say, Well, I don't know, I actually, you know, that's not something that I've been looking into, could you share with me some of the things that you're reading, because then I get a better experience of what rabbit holes are going down?
Curt Widhalm 18:33
I'm not, I'm not giving those YouTube links that get sent to me, you know, these 30 minutes, here's where all of the vaccines things are wrong. I'm not clicking on those.
Katie Vernoy 18:45
But I think they're they're there. There's knowledge that potentially you can gain about where someone's head's at, when you actually ask them, how they got there, and not looking at trying to switch it. But I think there are times when just understanding and listening and then providing a little bit of information kind of from outside their information bubble can have an impact. But sometimes it just becomes very clear that there's not common ground. How about for you? How do you manage it when clients are having these gigantic conversations with lots of emotion about things that you think are absolutely wrong?
Curt Widhalm 19:23
I do a lot of reflecting back even when there's direct questions back to me. What does this mean for you? How is this impacting your day to day life? What can you do with this it's very narrative approach in a lot of ways, and I have had some successes where clients are like, Thank you for listening to me, maybe you can help me get some perspective on some other ways of looking at this that is just kind of this being able to validate the process rather than the content of what's discussed. And I'm afraid that a lot of therapists would get sucked into the content part of these arguments and feel Like this is something that I can't help you with. And therefore, I need to go back to what we mentioned earlier in the episode and refer out to somebody who can validate the content of what you're talking about here. Like we mentioned in last week's episode, this is being able to have a really good idea of what your limits are, what kind of impact that the clients are having on you being able to sit with it. And that's, that's a part that, especially developing therapists I see struggle with a lot because this pulls up a lot of that imposter syndrome stuff is just because you're having anxious or bad feelings of what a client is saying, separate from our other fire of clients ethically episode doesn't mean that you're not necessarily providing good therapy in those situations. Just because we want therapy to be easy and us to heal everyone doesn't mean that we're not going to run into some uncomfortable situations with clients. I was sharing with one of my other Professor friends here recently about some of the role plays that I bring into the especially like practicum classes when people haven't started seeing clients yet, just like getting them prepared for stuff. And of course, I'm going to pick situations that make the therapist kind of uncomfortable, and it's surprising how few of these I've ever had to make up completely to kind of put, you know, developing therapists on the spot. And when I was sharing some of these with my professor friends, they were like, what kind of a practice do you have? These are pretty like everyday sort of things. These aren't even like the egregious ones. I say all that to say that sitting through a lot of stuff that makes us uncomfortable, can have a very deep impact for clients that we might feel mismatched with. But it comes back to attuning yourself to the relationship. Now, at that point, and again to the thing from this episode that we seem to have veered really far off from is when we get to those points, and it's still not working out? Is it time for a premature therapeutic sort of termination? Can I help a client in that situation? Yes. Can everybody okay, I would like to think everybody has the capability to know. But if you feel that it is interfering with yourself so much before you get to the point of referring out clients for you feel that the mismatch is so great, ethically, what you're going to want to do is have some really in depth consultations, that some clinical supervision from some people that are not going to just be part of a Facebook group that you're only able to explain, you know, in a few sentences, what's going on. And the chorus of commenters is going to, you know, give you seven or eight words as far as what you should do, but pay for a good consultation around how to manage it, and document that consultation. Not in the client chart, though, not in the client chart, but protect yourself in your process notes that you've explored the ways that this impact could be happening with the client. So that way, it's not just a rash decision, that this is part of the extra workout side of the session that makes you as a better therapist that can lead to trying to provide space for a client to grow. If the results of that consultation are Yeah, you should probably refer this person out, you've got some better community understanding and thought process that goes into it. But if there's space for you to work on and address through some of these issues with clients, depending on whatever specific content it is, with whatever it is that they're bringing up. premature termination at that point, falls more into bad therapy than it does to providing a good space for them.
Katie Vernoy 24:18
Making that assessment I think, can be tough, and I want to get to that. But I want to talk about one more mismatch that I think is actually not as interesting as what we've been talking about. But I think it is an important one to put in there. And then maybe we can talk about how to make the assessment because I think making the assessment and then having really good consultation, I think can be very important. But the other mismatch really is style or personality. You know, whether you're a directive therapist, a non directive, therapist, those types of things, I think that those, they actually make a big difference. And I've had clients where they've been able to give me the feedback and I can shift and be less more or less directive. But I think there's some of us that are just more or less directive. Again, oftentimes when clients are empowered, they opt out themselves. So you're not doing this premature termination. But I think it is important to talk about it just a little bit.
Curt Widhalm 25:12
Absolutely. And as somebody who does far more to the directive side of things, I tend to advertise to my community, the people who come to work with me, they know that I tend to be more directive more honest in the way that I put myself out there, then maybe some of their other therapeutic experiences, clients who want that, and the values that we put forward here, our work is put your values out there, let clients self select into this kind of stuff.
Katie Vernoy 25:45
But sometimes clients don't know they operate in because they think it's a good match. But then you can see them either pushing back against you being directive or shutting down. And I think I think the assessment becomes the clinicians responsibility if the client isn't understanding that that's what the problem is.
Curt Widhalm 26:06
And so those directive therapists out there in this situation would likely have very little problem directing that conversation to that particular problem.
Katie Vernoy 26:15
The opposite, though, I've seen where the non directive therapists kind of stay in therapy with some of these clients forever, and maybe this is you and I bias because we're both more directive. But I've had clients that didn't realize that they wanted more than they were getting, and I think non directive therapy can be hugely beneficial for some folks. Absolutely. But for for clients that want more, if they don't know that that's the case, how do we recommend that non directive therapists try to figure that out?
Curt Widhalm 26:45
I'm gonna be totally biased towards the directive end of things. It's creating the space for that discussion, and really saying, personality wise, that's just not who I am. I can't provide what you're looking for in this situation. That is a really good conversation to have with people, because it's either going to lead into Yeah, but I still like you, as the therapist. Yeah. But what you're asking for is not something that I can really do or be like, you're asking a tiger to change it stripes like, yeah, at that point, it's being able to then have a proper termination, even if it's incomplete towards therapy goals in order to help those clients get matched with somebody who is going to be able to provide what they want.
Katie Vernoy 27:38
I think the knowledge that's required for that conversation, maybe some that either the clients asking for more, the therapist is recognizing that the style isn't matching up. I think sometimes that's not evident. I think people typically can kind of flow together. And if the style is a mismatch, sometimes that's not identified. But I think what can be identifiable? is lack of progress on treatment goals, or stagnation on treatment goals, or the Hey, how are you doing very little going on in the therapy session, that I think therapists, as a matter, of course, should assess progress on treatment goals, and be able to identify that there are a few different things and they want to assess if therapy doesn't seem to be moving forward.
Curt Widhalm 28:23
And some of the ways that you can manage that is making sure that you go back and revisit your treatment plan with your clients every so often. And I know that that's a, I was gonna say, a lot more popular in DMH work, but I don't know that popular is the right word that
Katie Vernoy 28:39
consistent usually requires. Wire. Yeah, that's probably best.
Curt Widhalm 28:46
But for independent practice, doctors, practitioners who aren't, you know, as adherent to those kinds of contracts or rules that require you to go back to those treatment plans, do it anyway. So that way, these kinds of things can emerge sooner and have conversations with your clients about, hey, we're not making any progress towards this goal. What's going on with this? That does allow for the are we doing things right? Is this something that you would get this better out of treatment with somebody else that makes it more of a joint decision, rather than just the therapist being the all knowing or all scared of having to have that conversation with a client, that honest relationship, there's typically really helpful.
Katie Vernoy 29:41
And when you were talking about that, I was remembering a conversation we had really early on in the podcast with Dr. Melissa Hall. I think it's making your documentation meaningful or meaningful documentation, something like that. But she actually really talks about the clinical loop and how making that a regular part of your process helps you close And I play but it also opens this conversation for folks who aren't quite sure what's not working. Because I think when you're documenting and paying attention, I think that can be very helpful. So we've talked about a lot of different things, I think there's, you know, we could go more into a client not making clinical progress as a reason to potentially prematurely terminate.
Curt Widhalm 30:22
I do want to bring up though that man, sometimes building off of last week's conversation around some of these therapy interfering behaviors, there may be times when even examining it through that lens, when you've consistently had these conversations with clients that you've sought the outside consultation, you've documented that the clients continue to break more egregious boundaries, but maybe not to the threatening level of the ones that were discussed in our first episode on firing clients ethically. And these are things where it might be breaking boundaries outside of sessions showing up to your office and hanging out way too long disrupting behaviors in the waiting room that you know, maybe couples who start their arguments in the waiting room that are interfering, the session that you're having and stuff like that, yeah, where those types of behaviors are things that are impacting other people in your practice, that weren't really straightforward boundary conversations that if they continue to happen, are things that you continue to bring them up if those conversations that were used suggested last week in the podcast about how this impacts things, and there is a an active refusal to follow those are acknowledge that those are even problematic behaviors that are impacting you, and especially other clients, that can be a cause that you should very much document quite well, as far as you're welcome to services, not in this way. And if these are things that are coming up, here are appropriate referrals that, you know, we've talked about in termination episodes before being able to provide, these are behaviors that you're demonstrating pair impacting me, we have tried to work on them, they are continuing to impact me in a way where I can no longer serve you. I have sought out consultation, I am working on this. And it is agreed that I am going to cause you more harm. Because of the feelings that are developing, then I can benefit you from this point. That is inappropriate referral. And that is inappropriate termination. They're
Katie Vernoy 32:49
the things that come to mind for me, if I don't have the capacity, and that could be strong clinical expertise. But it also could be time I had a client that I had to refer out because they needed more than I had time to take care of Sure. If they if the relationship is not one, that there would be an element of abandonment, the feeling of abandonment, abandonment is different than the abandonment of just saying today was your last session, audios. The treatment Alliance and we talked about this a lot in both of these episodes. But if the treatment Alliance is strong, there may be things that could be overcome that in other situations, it would be recommended to refer out. But I come back to something that I think is going to be very rampant right now, especially for certain types of specialties and certain types of things is the availability of more suitable resources. And so maybe as our last point, because we are getting pretty long here. But as our last point talking about, I've made the assessment, I've done the consultation, I've had the conversation with the client, I am unable to keep the client ethically, legally, logistically, whatever it is, and I'm having a hard time finding suitable resources to refer them to. At that point, some people keep clients. And I think that there are pros and cons there. But what is our responsibility? If there are just no therapists that are capable of helping this client?
Curt Widhalm 34:26
I think with the accessibility of telehealth now that this is much less of a problem than it has historically been that with providers in every jurisdiction now able to provide telehealth easily that this is going to be where, especially in the private practice end of things, those referrals are more easily found. Hired, indeed higher severity clients, those being sought out through things like DMH you're going to have agency policies that you're going to have to follow in those situations but To give maybe an anticlimactic answer, I don't think that this is as big of a problem here in 2021, as it has historically been described, there, lots of referrals out there, there are clients and therapists who can match across distances now. And that's, you know, one of the things that being more digitally accessible helps to alleviate some of these issues when it does come to providing care for these kinds of clients.
Katie Vernoy 35:30
So basically, the answer was, I'm not going to answer you, okay, because it's not that big of a problem.
Curt Widhalm 35:37
Pretty much.
Katie Vernoy 35:39
So I'm going to actually just put us put my spin on it, because I do think it actually is still a problem. But I think the problem is not more, is there any available resource? It's, is there an acceptable resource to the client? Because oftentimes, it does mean having a therapist who is telehealth and they want to be in person or someone who is not maybe as close of a personality fit but has a specialty and doesn't take their insurance. I mean, there there are some issues here. And I think it's something where, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, in good faith, providing as many as close good enough referrals to this client as you can and trying to do what you can to do some linkage is sufficient. Yeah. Okay.
Curt Widhalm 36:28
You should let us know what you think of this episodes, especially in our Facebook group, the modern therapist, group or on any of our social media. You can also leave us a rating and review and we'll include our show notes over at MTSGpodcast.com. Also, there is still like, hours left for you to be able to get your virtual therapy, reimagined 2021 tickets. We are going entirely virtual again this year, we had hoped to have some people come out and join us in Los Angeles, but enter in the meme of my fall plans and delta variant. Yes, but there's still time you can get those tickets over at therapy reimagined conference calm. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. SimplePractice is the leading private practice management platform for private practitioners everywhere. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice to power telehealth sessions schedule appointments, file insurance claims market, their practice and so much more. All on one HIPAA compliant platform.
Katie Vernoy 37:37
Get your first two months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This is collusive offer is valid for new customers only. Please note that we are a paid affiliate for a SimplePractice so we'll have a little bit of money in our pocket. If you sign up at this link. Simplepractice.com/therapy reimagined. And that's where you can learn more.
Curt Widhalm 37:57
This episode is also sponsored by RevKey.
Katie Vernoy 38:01
RevKey specializes in working with mental health professionals like you to increase not only clicks to your website, but helps you find your ideal patients. From simple startup packages and one time consultations to full Digital Marketing Management Services. RevKey can help you run successful digital marketing ads. RevKey creates customized packages and digital marketing budget recommendations that fit your business needs.
Curt Widhalm 38:25
You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, red key provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
Katie Vernoy 38:42
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener
Announcer 38:48
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What to do When Clients Get in Their Own Way
Curt and Katie chat about what therapy interfering behaviors (TIBs) are and how to address them in therapy. We explore the balance between reducing barriers for clients while also holding them accountable for their behavior. We also talk about how to identify if it is the therapist or the client engaging in a TIB.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * What therapy interfering behaviors (TIBs) are and how TIBs show up in the therapy room. * How to address TIBs in therapy (we may disagree a little here). * The balance between reducing barriers for clients and holding them accountable. * If you should still have session when a client shows up late. * Using appropriate self-disclosure to address TIBs. * Should you fire clients for TIBs? * When therapists engage in TIBs. * How to evaluate if it’s a client TIB or therapist TIB. * Managing imposter syndrome when a client becomes hostile because the therapist cannot provide what the client wants.
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what’s most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only. Go to simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
RevKey RevKey specializes in working with mental health professionals like you to increase not only clicks to your website, but helps you find your ideal patients. From simple startup packages and one time consultations to full Digital Marketing Management Services, RevKey can help you run successful digital marketing ads. RevKey creates customized packages and digital marketing budget recommendations that fit your business needs.
You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, RevKey provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Relevant Episodes:
How to Fire Your Clients (Ethically)
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
Katie Vernoy 00:02
Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding SimplePractice changes that this practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important your clients by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
Curt Widhalm 00:18
Stick around for a special offer at the end of this episode.
Katie Vernoy 00:23
This podcast is also sponsored by RevKey.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
RevKey is a Google Ads digital ads management and consulting firm that works primarily with therapists digital advertising is all they do, and they know their stuff. When you work with RevKey they help the right patients find you ensuring a higher return on your investment in digital advertising. RevKey offers flexible month to month plans and never locks customers into long term contracts.
Katie Vernoy 00:49
Listen at the end of the episode for more information on RevKey.
Announcer 00:53
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:10
Welcome back Modern Therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about all things therapist related what we do with our clients the things that we do, outside of the therapy room, things that we do inside the therapy room. I don't know I'm back to not introducing podcast well.
Katie Vernoy 01:34
This is a podcast interfering behavior.
Curt Widhalm 01:38
On that note, Katie, do you know what you call an Interrupting cow? No. All right, Dad jokes aside. After our episode on firing your clients, ethically, we got a review on Apple from Apple user, vinyl dash. And I'm going to paraphrase quite a bit of this here. But this is a review that we're actually going to have two episodes of response. So we do appreciate all of the feedback that we get from our modern therapist community here. And we do look at a lot of them. So please give us ratings and reviews. Let us know what we're doing well, what you'd like to see us cover. You can do this on any of the review sites or on our social media join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group. But there is a lot here that came from this review. In response to that episode on firing our clients. Apparently, we miss some opportunities for some nuance, and especially in the case of firing our clients. The only issues that we discussed were when therapists feel unsafe or threatened. True, yes. And maybe we could have done a better job of titling that episode to something about therapists safety and firing clients they're going back to this review as a private practice therapist far more common scenario when considering premature termination comes from what they call in DBT, therapy, interfering behaviors or just repeated boundary violations. And after addressing them in session and attempting to help client gain awareness about these behaviors outside of the therapy relationship. These are far more nuanced situations that don't make this reviewer feel unsafe, but do ultimately make it sometimes impossible to continue seeing the client when the clients are often already struggling with abandonment issues. And this user would like us to maybe address that a little bit more. We're going to have this episode and next week's episodes cover some of the nuance here because we try to keep our episodes here about 30 minutes, it doesn't always allow for us within a single episode to get into a lot of the nuance here, Katie and I were talking about now there's kind of two different things here. One is talking about therapy, interfering behaviors and managing them. The other is maybe some other non threatening situations where it might be right to terminate with clients. And that's going to be for next week here. So therapy interfering behaviors, Katie, I think it might help our audience here to know a little bit about how this shows up in the therapeutic relationship. This is something that we know comes from the DBT worlds but whether you're a DBT practitioner or not, this happens across a variety of practices.
Katie Vernoy 04:42
When we look at therapy, interfering behaviors, I think there's acknowledgement that these can happen both from the client and the therapist. And so I want to make sure that we put that front and center because I think oftentimes, clients get blamed for interfering in therapy and I think therapists can contribute and we'll get into that more later. But looking at some of the therapy interfering behaviors that I think are most difficult, and maybe we can just start with the logistical ones up front, are coming late to session missing sessions, last minute cancellations, no shows not paying, maybe trying to reach out to therapists repeatedly in between sessions kind of crossing those boundaries. But I think the the logistical ones, rather than the clinical ones, I think are ones where people can really get in trouble. Where if you're looking at a business model, if you have clients that are consistently not paying or late canceling or, you know, or even canceling right on that, you know, whether it's 24 or 48 hour mark, and you're not able to fill those session times, I think, from a business standpoint, the no brainer is just fire him right, like just these clients need to go. But I think that there are clinical reasons not to and I think there's also actually business reasons not to as well. But how often do you experience these types of therapy interfering behaviors, because I think the argument that a lot of people make is that if you set up your practice properly, and you have appropriate boundaries, you don't see these as often. But I actually think that they're clinical. And I think that some practices will always see them, at least at the beginning. To a certain extent,
Curt Widhalm 06:17
I think that I run into them a lot less now than I did earlier in my career. And part of that is having structured my business with some of the things that we've talked about on the podcast before. Having a client credit card on file shirt makes it to wear them for getting their checkbook doesn't become a therapy, interfering behavior, it's pushing a couple of buttons that allows for me to charge those cards in the first place. Having automated appointment reminders, sure, makes no showing for sessions a lot easier. But probably the most important thing that I've learned is addressing stuff with clients as soon as possible. Yeah. And this is something where I don't consider myself a DBT therapist, but the more that I read about DBT, the more that I recognize that I do use a lot of DBT principles in my practice. And I think one of the main things that I do with my clients, and I have a practice that mostly works with adolescents, so this also includes therapy interfering behaviors from their parents, yep, is not letting a lot of these feelings swell up, and being able to address it right away in the next session. Or if I am getting a lot of frequent contact in between sessions, you know, those clients where you see their phone number pop up, yet again, you get that little feeling in your stomach, where it's like, yep, dealing directly in the therapeutic relationship with clients about how these boundaries end up being crossed, and how it's something that interplays within our relationship, and is likely interplaying within the relationship those clients are having in other places in their lives, is something where providing that direct feedback to them. With the goal of continuing therapy successfully, when you were talking about that there's a lot of therapists who are really quick to, you know, wanting to get rid of these kinds of clients is, this is really coming from the empathic place of I want this and us to work together. And here's the impact that this is having, not only on your progress, but on our relationship towards that progress, that really sets a foundation of GRE addressing these behaviors, we're addressing them again, and we're addressing them again, that helps to bring this insight up for clients that I do see them start to have more of a understanding of the impact of what they're doing, not just for themselves in kind of saving themselves out of their own anxiety plays, but also within the context of the relationships of the people around them.
Katie Vernoy 09:01
I love those interventions. And I also think they're challenging because oftentimes it means putting a little bit more of you in the room, and it's working in the transference, so to speak, how you're treating ni is probably how you're treating others. And let's let's work it out between us. And I think that works really well. But it does make an assumption that there's something that they're doing that is consistent across their life. And that may be true, and I think we need to assess that. But I think I actually start further back, which is trying to understand why it's happening. You know, I go from a place of someone's not doing some overt or covert behavior to try to interfere with therapy, but that there may be logistical issues. You know, the first thing I do is I ask them, is this the time for therapy? Do we need to make a different schedule? Do we need to move this around? Is there something that's keeping you from wanting to come to therapy You know, it's looking at what what is their experience? And is there something in their life that's getting in the way of therapy and not just like, Hey, this is how they treat everyone. They're always late. They always are inconsistent and over inconsiderate, but actually like, did we schedule it a bad time? And part of your clinical issue is that you want to please me, so you don't feel comfortable asking for a different time. So you're always running late? Is it the way that I start therapy annoys you? And so you're you're hesitant to come in? I mean, I feel like to me, and maybe this isn't that different than what you were saying. But I feel like, oftentimes, the assumption is that this is a resistance or a therapy interfering behavior, which I guess it is interfering with therapy, but it may actually be logistical and practical, and just like, Hey, I realize that I'm exhausted at nine in the morning, and I'm going to sleep through my alarm, and I can't do it. So we need to schedule it after to, you know, it's not that I don't want to see you, it's that I've made a commitment I can't keep,
Curt Widhalm 11:01
I think, and maybe where I'm shying away from this a little bit is for some clients, you might be asking for an insights that they don't necessarily have the capability of being able to look at themselves yet. Sure. I work very much in the present the relational aspects of things, and for me with those particular kinds of clients, and as this review is pointing out, being able to talk about the impact that somebody's behavior has, in real time on the person that that behavior is having is the very DBT intervention of modeling emotions and thoughts and being vulnerable about what's happening, you know, everybody's favorite DBT intervention, dear man, of being able to describe what that impact is, and being able to model how that's happening. And sometimes I'll even go so far as to say, here's, here's, dear man in practice, here's me describing what your impact is on me. And here's me expressing what that impact does for me, and once again, asking you to look at how these actions in the collective of them has that and you know, reaffirming, are you really committed to changing these kinds of behaviors, knowing that these behaviors have an impact. This way, it's not getting a lot into the why it's not getting into, you know, the potential of being able to externalize the responsibility onto anything else, traffic, trauma, anxiety, whatever else it is. But looking at the personal responsibility, that's still part of the behavior in real time as it impacts when somebody, ideally, you as the therapists, if you're following what I'm describing here, in a way that is managed, you know, maybe with a slight annoyance, yeah, I'm annoyed when you don't show up when you say that you're going to show up. That helps a real relationship to develop. So that way these clients have the ability to work through these therapy, interfering behaviors, and outside of the room, relationship interfering behaviors, that allows for that insight that you're talking about to start to develop and be able to be expressed more effectively.
Katie Vernoy 13:29
So I agree that's a great intervention. I don't think that that's a bad intervention. I think that it's a wonderful intervention. I think the addition and it sounds like you're saying that maybe this is not a good addition, is actually trying to see if there's anything that's happening on the therapist side of the street coming as a human and saying, Hey, is there a way that we can make this better? Because Is this the right time for you to show up? Is this is there something there because to me, going from the this is your behavior, and you're doing it wrong, doesn't acknowledge that there are real life situations that can get in the way of people doing stuff that when those things are resolved, and when they are actually talked about and it's acceptable to be a human and have some of these things happen? And it's not like, Hey, this is this is a problem behavior, you need to fix it. But it's like, Hey, this is what I'm seeing. I'm trying to understand it. What do you understand about it? What do I understand about it? What can we do about it? It's not saying, Hey, stop it, which is, I think can with the power differential, I think can happen. And I think people can feel very turned off by that.
Curt Widhalm 14:33
Oh, to clarify, I'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. What I'm saying is this behavior has this impact. Okay. And by virtue of being able to bring it up in this way, what we're doing is we're coming to the place that you're describing, which is coming to a joint solution on how to make things work together. And ideally, if a client is able to follow that same sort of process of being able to say when You do this, it impacts me this way. That is therapeutic growth in very much the same way that we've just modeled and is something that we would hope to be able to create the space for them to have that real relationship with you as the therapist there.
Katie Vernoy 15:14
So the big difference then from something that you might do in a, personally is that you just start from a place of this is therapeutic material, and we need to address it, yes, instead of Hey, what's going on?
Curt Widhalm 15:26
Right, because especially with these kinds of clients, we're exhibiting these kinds of therapy interfering behaviors all over the place. There's never a bad time to enforce limits, unless it's way too late. And those limits are the things that we hope that people read in our informed consent, the things that everybody is agreeing to, at the beginning of the first session, when you know, here's all of our practice policies that they're just kind of glossing over, because what they're there for is I want to be healed, I want to be out of this feeling that they're just kind of Yeah, yeah. Now, let me tell you about, it's important to come back to what those limits are, as those limits are being tested, and repeatedly being tested, that leads us as clinicians to feel like, are we actually providing this client with good therapy?
Katie Vernoy 16:17
Some of this It sounds like might be stylistic. And I think it probably depends on the clients that you're seeing, and that kind of stuff, how you approach it, I think, I think we're saying very similar things. I think the nuance here is, for me, I start from the relationship and trying to understand what's happened to you from for it sounds like for you, you start within the relationship and, and holding a boundary. And that doesn't suggest I'm not also holding the boundary. It's just I think we there's not one right way to get to the conversation of Hey, this behavior is interfering with therapy, it may also be interfering with the rest of your life. And how do we make you more successful here, as well as how do we extrapolate that out to your life.
Curt Widhalm 17:03
And I think the approach that I'm taking here is that I'm wanting to keep the client engaged in the process of what is happening, and not bypassing what's happening in the moment and immediately jumping out to other places that this could possibly be happening. And if there is a therapist pleasing aspect of clients in these situations, you can get to kind of this bypass or this ignoring of other places that this is happening for those clients, you know, oh, no, I don't see this happening in other places, even when it totally is that they're just trying to be like, you know, I'm a good client, you know, this is the only place that it's coming up where we might, you know, be chasing a rabbit down one path that needs to go several different paths. I don't know if that metaphor works, but
Katie Vernoy 17:56
I think it's understandable. But yeah, I mean, I think it's some of this is so unique to each client, though, it really depends on what they're working on, and what the therapy and interfering behavior is, I think,
Curt Widhalm 18:08
within this, and you brought up earlier about some of the logistical aspects of this comes with the way that we might choose to run our sessions. How for you, if a client's running late to a session, do you set limits on like, well, if you're not here by 20 minutes, and we're canceling the session, and I'm just going to charge you anyway.
Katie Vernoy 18:28
Sometimes it depends on the client, I have clients that have chronic illnesses, and different things that may interfere with their ability to come right on time, or those types of things. And so those are discussed and addressed. But I don't necessarily say if you're not available by this time, I'm going to close the session out like I'm not going to, I'm not going to do a 30 minute session, if you show up 20 minutes late, I don't say that, for me the flexibility of enforcing the time limit, and charging them for the session, kind of whether they show or not, I think that lives, but I think the tardiness is more enforced interpersonally and if someone's 20 minutes late, or 30 minutes late, and they're like, hey, should I still come? I say no. But if if they come into a session at the 1520 minute mark, or they tell me Hey, I'm going to be there in five minutes, I will honor the session. I think for me there's a humanity that I add that maybe others see is not having great boundaries. But for me that that I understand that people have unique experiences and my timeliness is pretty good. Overall, my attendance rates pretty good overall, I kind of go from the place of I understand and value that you're doing your bus and if you're not showing up on time or you're not showing up consistently, that's something we need to talk about. So that's how I manage it. How do you manage it?
Curt Widhalm 19:54
If the client is 48 minutes late session, we have a two minute session. And I say that because I mean, if they're paying for a 15 minute session, and I've got that 15 minutes blocked out for them, but if they show up, it gives us the opportunity, even in those two minutes to begin to address what is happening and what the impact is. Yeah. And you'll see this in a variety of situations, I'm going to change a bunch of details about a client here. So that way, I can keep this anonymous at a client several years ago, that would always have digestive issues. The minute before the sessions were to begin in our office, this client would show up to the office, they will call eight, and my office would go on appropriately, about eight or nine minutes before the session, but it would be as soon as I would come out, hey, I gotta go the bathroom. And it would oftentimes be 3040 minutes in the bathroom, that when this client would eventually come back, the discussion would be, what are you getting out of the therapy, because, you know, what we've agreed upon. And the treatment plan that we set out together was to be able to look at the way that your behaviors are kind of procrastinating. And it sure seems like this is happening here. And what I'm hearing from you that therapy is not being successful, I look at moments like these. And it feels like you're trying to blame me for therapy not working. But we're missing 40 minutes out of the session. This is where it took several months of having conversations like these a number of times when this client was upset because I was charging them for the agreed upon our and, you know, having these two 510 minute sessions that address these behaviors, this client terminated with me for a while and came back 18 months, two years later, and said that that was an opportunity that they saw that they were having this kind of avoidant behavior with a number of other places in their lives. But it took somebody consistently pointing that out to them, for them to now come back to therapy and want to actually start addressing it. So clients like these can seem highly motivated, even in the midst of their therapy interfering behaviors going on. Yeah, but setting up this foundation, and really being able to not go beyond your own limits as far as what you're emotionally, having happen with the clients managing your own countertransference. But appropriately, self disclosing can set these clients up for a lot longer process of being able to come to the realizations that they had hoped that they would get in the first place. And this is where a lot of my clients come to eventually say something to me as far as this is what makes your therapy very real. You're very honest about what you're doing. And about the impacts that things are happening. You're not just kind of setting up some rules and not explaining why.
Katie Vernoy 23:16
I think that's the important point is explaining why the rules are there and having that transparency, because I think if it feels punitive, if it feels dehumanized, you didn't show up until two minutes. So we'll do the two minutes and I'm charging you for the whole time. I think that doesn't necessarily resonate with some folks. And so I think if it's like you're describing, you're actually talking about it within the relationship. I think that is so critical, because so many of the clients that I've had come to me have talked about feeling like their therapist didn't care about them. They were very punitive toward them, or they didn't see them. And I think for me that that element of being able to hold both pieces, the strong boundaries and infrastructure, as well as the caring human connection. I think that's what's most important to me.
Curt Widhalm 24:07
And this comes back to the idea of we can't infantilized or treat our clients like they're inherently weak, that having a real relationship, even if it's a chaotic real relationship is something that does provide the space for growth for these kinds of clients and ultimately allows for the growth of the clients to be able to carry the same kind of principles through other places in their life, and being able to consistently show up and have that acceptance of our own limits. Being able to describe the acceptance were on limits, and really being able to model it even when it's initially in bringing it up with clients like this drives our own anxiety through the roof because it's not an easy transition of going from a therapist. Who's expecting clients show up and just immediately start doing the work to being able to address things immediately, because we're trying to keep that professionalism in place. But I think being able to have that honest relationship to appropriately self disclose wouldn't you know, when we hear about this appropriately, self disclosing for the client's benefit, where I don't talk about things is, I don't talk about them not showing up is having impact on my money, I don't want them to take the message that they're just you know, in my life, because they're paying me part of that is maintaining the boundary of you reserve some time, that time, cost this amount of money that time was reserved for you, and I'm holding that boundary with you. Yeah, I don't, you know, put this in sort of this punitive. Well, you did this. So I'm doing this, it's more in that nuanced. I had this experience of your behavior. And it left me with this impact. It is radically self accepting my own reactions to that. I don't go so far as to being like, and I want to punish you for this.
Katie Vernoy 26:15
But I think oftentimes, folks will see consequences of their behavior as punishment. That's why how it is presented, how the boundaries are presented are important. I'm looking at the time and I want to shift to some other stuff, because I think we're, we've we've covered I think, the logistical elements except when do we fire clients for these types of boundary crossings of coming late missing sessions last minute cancellations are not paying?
Curt Widhalm 26:41
I typically don't I find that all of these behaviors are in yellow words, grist for the mill of psychotherapy, that these are all processable, being able to continue to talk about it, you know, if it's logistical things like, okay, scheduling is something that it's hard for clients to get to our office during rush hour, we'll work towards appropriate accommodations. I don't make promises of let me move seven other clients so that way you can get your ideal time. It's let's look at my calendar and see if there is a more appropriate time that you can fit in. Yeah, that is, again, it's bringing together these principles of I have limits to
Katie Vernoy 27:28
Yeah, I think you finish there, I start there, I think we have a similar way to handle it. But I actually there are times when I think that it may be appropriate to terminate with clients. One is if they truly are not paying the credit card on file is expired, and they're not getting back to you at a certain point for keeping that client. I think if clients are consistently missing, you know, last minute cancellations, and you're seeing them very infrequently. I think there's a time at which that becomes clinically irresponsible to have them on your caseload. I think if you're able to keep the conversation going, that's one thing. But I think if it's something where you're absolutely not doing any treatment with them, because they come in once a month, you're discussing therapy interfering behaviors with them, they go all right. All right. All right, and then they don't come back for three or four weeks. I think it's I think at some point, you know, you do have a responsibility both to yourself and to your client to not pretend that therapy. So shifting gears, there are these logistical reasons that I think we've talked about pretty well. But there's also some clinical reasons that are called therapy, interfering behaviors, whether it's not trying out interventions, not participating, not speaking a lot asking or demanding more than a therapist can offer, or even being disrespectful or hostile or critical to the therapist. And I would refer people for that part, potentially back to the episode on how to fire clients ethically, although I think there's ways to keep those clients are not expressing your emotions effectively as another one just to add that in. But when I'm thinking about this, for me, I go to this conversation that we've had about resistance. And some of this I feel like is blaming clients for therapist failures. Say more, if a client is not trying out an intervention that a therapist think is the right intervention, or they're not engaging in the conversation in the therapy room, or they're asking for more than the therapist can offer. And I think the assessment of what that means, potentially the client is saying, I don't agree, I don't I'm not signed on for this treatment plan. You're not helping me to have an engaging conversation here. And I want more than what you're offering to me because I don't feel like I'm getting better. Now. Obviously, the assessment is the most important part of that. But I think if therapists go to my clients are interfering with their own behavior because they're not trying what I want them to do when they're not talking to me and they're not and they're asking me for more I think the therapist needs to do a self evaluation, are you actually aligned with what the client wants to work with? And what they want to work on?
Curt Widhalm 30:09
And you gave a couple of answers even within your question there. One is, if this is not the treatment plan I agreed to, then you've done the wrong treatment plan is the therapist. And that's where you need to go back to part of this is going to be dictated by the theory that you're working from, that. A lot of times what I'll see is especially like kids with anxiety, that don't want to use anxiety management techniques, and I'll hear parents, you know, come into the beginning or the end of the session and be like, my kids still anxious. Okay, let's shift treatment theories, let's go from working CBT with a kid to family systems to see how parents are reinforcing some of the anxiety relief seeking behaviors that running to mom or dad to appease some of the anxiety rather than having mom and dad reinforced, now's the time to use those anxiety techniques to be able to clinically address this in a way kind of is going to really depend on the context of whichever client but it takes the step back on the therapist part to really evaluate is the working Alliance there, do we agree on what the problem is and how we're going to get there, because that's going to set up your treatment plan. And your treatment plan is going to be something that the client, clinically ethically should be involved with, if they have any capacity to start working on it. And that is going to be the vast majority of clients. So this is part of where really being the therapist is being able to have that wide variety of different ways to approach this, as you described,
Katie Vernoy 31:55
the other element is potentially my framework, which is the client as the expert of their own experience. And so if I were to suggest a specific intervention, they come back the next week, they haven't tried it, or they didn't do the homework or whatever it is they didn't do it, my approach will potentially be the same regardless if I think it's therapy interfering, or I had a, you know, an misalignment on the treatment planning. But it's what happened? What made it so that you chose not to do that? And how do we either figure out how you do it, which is, hey, you interfered with therapy? Because you didn't do what I told you to do. And we all agreed that you were going to do it and it's great. Or it's how did I What did I miss? What's not feeling right for you? What are the steps, maybe were three steps forward, and we need to take five steps back to identify the behavior ahead of it that's getting in the way of you being ready for this, that or the feelings or emotions or whatever the perception ahead of it. That's that you're not ready for this. To me, I feel like when clients consistently are coming in Week after week, not having done the work, so to speak. My instinct is not that's a therapy interfering behavior. My instinct is that it's me, I'll address it similarly. But I think for me, it's sometimes I hear clinicians getting very upset because their clients aren't doing what they think they should be doing. And I'm always cautious to assume that therapy interfering behaviors on the clients part.
Curt Widhalm 33:31
It's worth evaluating. Why can't it be both? That
Katie Vernoy 33:37
absolutely is.
Curt Widhalm 33:40
And this is, again, working radically within what's happening in real time in that relationship with clients is being able to explore both with clients that, hey, you're here to work on these things. We've agreed to this plan. Is this a plan that we need to reevaluate so that way you can be successful? Sometimes, yeah, where I often see this coming up is kids who are drugged into therapy by their parents, and the kids don't really want to be in therapy. But then it's being able to shift what therapeutic goals are to something that does speak to the kids. It's being able to frame it in a way these are, you know, the therapists responsibility ends of things. But I've worked with plenty of kids who don't agree that the problem is what the same problem is that their parents bring them in with. And again, this comes with some of the experience, particular to my practice the intake session, I make sure that parents are involved in the first several minutes of the session to be able to say, all right, describe what you want for your kid here. And you know, after a few minutes of laying out kind of what the problem is, what the limits of confidentiality are all those you know, wonderful four session things. And I send mom and dad back out To the waiting room, I'll turn to the kid and be like, Alright, I heard mom and dad story, what's up with him, and kids almost universally are like, Alright, see, now I get to describe what my part of the problem is. It's it's a symbolic shift over to the client and that situation to give them more control over the therapy process. So that way, it's meeting the client where they're at, not where somebody else wants them to be. And this is where clients will talk about, you know, my therapist forced me into this thing I didn't want to do. But you can set your client and therefore yourself up for more success by really focusing on that therapeutic alliance upfront to make sure that you're working towards the thing that you both agree that you need to be working on.
Katie Vernoy 35:46
Well, and I think, to me, a critical distinction is desired outcome and intervention. Because I think, and this is just a nuance to kind of explain it to the audience, I know that you agree with us. But we agree to work toward an outcome, I don't know, except for more specific types of treatment, like EMDR, DBT, that kind of stuff that people are agreeing on specific interventions. I think that those things, by nature need to be fluid, unless there's an evidence based practice that suggests a specific structure for the therapy. And so to me, and maybe this comes back to motivational interviewing, and how do we get the person ready to go and make sure that it's their decision to make a change, or maybe it goes to really understanding the client as a human and being present for them while they figure out, you know, their particular method of healing. I also think that there's things that we can't know, deeply in our souls, and maybe not even intuitively because many of us didn't learn these things in grad school, but the different cultural methods of healing and being able to align those I think, if we are caught in our own, this is what I think my clients should do. I think we're going to experience more of these types of therapy, interfering behaviors versus coming from a place of collaboration and connection when we when we run up against these things.
Curt Widhalm 37:13
Absolutely. You're right. I was ready to fight you when you said that. You knew that I would agree with it. But
Katie Vernoy 37:20
I know you all too well. So the final one is this kind of disrespectful, hostile critical, the therapist are demanding more than the therapist can offer. And I think that's similar to what we were talking about with safety. But we talked to in that regard, we were talking about how to fire the client in that episode, which will obviously link to in the show notes. But I think that there's also, how do you actually deal with that if you're wanting to keep the client in the session, if a client is being hostile towards you, like absolutely hostile?
Curt Widhalm 37:49
I think that a lot of times, this is where those kinds of behaviors first bring up a lot of that imposter syndrome for a lot of therapists have like, oh, they're seeing through what I can't do. And, again, this comes with experience, it comes with supervision, consultation, your own therapy, of being okay with where your limits are, sometimes clients are going to ask for more than what you can provide. And it's okay to be honest of this is, you know, something that you as a client, you're asking for something that I can't do. And there might be feelings, there might be continued hostility about that. Now, this is honestly mostly where I would suggest that you talk about this as far as clinical techniques. I want EMDR, I want brain spinning. I sorry, I can't do that. That's not part of my training, that helps to, again, model an appropriate reaction, don't take it necessarily, personally, but it's being able to first recognize your own feelings that are coming up in these situations helps to more successfully navigate this. Clients are going to have bad days from time to time, they're going to project stuff onto you that you're going to be the target of whatever just happened to the car. Again, number of teenagers that show up in my office just upset of whatever the conversation was in between school and my office ends up being something that gets kind of pushed at me. So the first steps of it is, is there still a place to make therapy work? Sometimes these clients have these moments, and it makes them very unlikable in the moment but getting through these moments are things that helps to make the real relationship of therapy continue to grow and develop, which makes these clients more likeable. But it's being able to know your own reactions know your own limits within what's coming up as appropriately, setting the right kinds of boundaries. doesn't help me when you Talk with me like this. And if it doesn't help me, it's not helping us.
Katie Vernoy 40:03
Yeah, I think there's I mean, I always go back to, is the client hostile towards me? or angry at me because of a clinical misstep or an interpersonal misstep? I always want to have that assessment be the first thing that I do. And sometimes it's like, absolutely not, I was fine. This is, you know, whether we call it transference or therapy interfering, or whatever, you know, then then I'm okay, you know, my side of the street is clean over here, let me figure out what's going on for them and help them to process it, and not necessarily give them the same experience someone outside would give them because most people would walk out of the room or snap back or whatever. But give them an understanding of what that experience is and what they're putting out. So I see that there have been times when clients are pissed at me because I made a mistake. And so I think, recognizing that there are times that I'm going to have to come back and say, Hey, I missed something there. Let's talk that through. And most of the time, not always, but most of the time, the client and I are able to come to a better understanding and improves communication. And it's also modeling, apology and repair, as well as providing them with an opportunity to figure out what do I do when I've blown up at somebody, and then the relationship continues, which I think is really powerful. So to me, I feel like there's, there's a lot that as therapists were being asked to do, that potentially no one in their life would put up with, for our clients. And so to me, it's it's sorting out how do we walk through them in a way that allows for healing to happen, while then still taking care of ourselves. So when I've got a client that's hostile towards me, whether I've done something or not, I'm gonna be calling colleagues to consult or at least event or whatever, so that I can get myself back in the right place. If I've got clients who are consistently making my schedule of mass, I might consult again and say, Hey, you know, what boundaries? Am I missing? How can I get this back under control? Or what are the things that are coming up for me that I keep helping this client move their appointment all over the week? You know, whatever it is. But I think the doing of these things of having these hard conversations of giving this feedback that most people won't give our clients, I think is hard enough. But it is we did sign up for it. Maybe not every client maybe not every situation, but we did sign up for this.
Curt Widhalm 42:37
We would love to hear more from you. You can talk about the episode in our Facebook groups bot and therapists group, let us know on social media or leave us a rating and review but we'd love to hear about how you handle therapy interfering behaviors from your clients. And you can check out our show notes at MTSGpodcast.com. And also check out the now entirely virtual therapy reimagined 2021 conference, we've had to make some adjustments. We're looking at the COVID numbers and decided that we'd love to hang out with you. We don't want to hang out with the Delta pair yet. So join us online you can get your virtual tickets over at therapyreimaginedconference.com And until next time I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 43:27
Thanks again to our sponsor SimplePractice.
Curt Widhalm 43:30
SimplePractice is the leading private practice management platform for private practitioners everywhere. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice to power telehealth sessions schedule appointments, file insurance claims market, their practice and so much more. All on one HIPAA compliant platform.
Katie Vernoy 43:48
Get your first two months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This is collusive offer is valid for new customers only. Please note that we are a paid affiliate for a SimplePractice so we'll have a little bit of money in our pocket. If you sign up at this link. Simplepractice.com/therapy reimagined. And that's where you can learn more.
Curt Widhalm 44:09
This episode is also sponsored by RevKey.
Katie Vernoy 44:13
RevKey specializes in working with mental health professionals like you to increase not only clicks to your website, but helps you find your ideal patients. From simple startup packages and one time consultations to full Digital Marketing Management Services. RevKey can help you run successful digital marketing ads. RevKey creates customized packages and digital marketing budget recommendations that fit your business needs.
Curt Widhalm 44:36
You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, red key provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
Katie Vernoy 44:53
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener
Announcer 45:00
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Episode 224: Are You Even Trauma-Informed? An interview with Laura Reagan, LCSW-C, on trauma-informed care, including what it looks like in practice. Curt and Katie talk with Laura about the barriers clients face when trying to find a good trauma therapist and how trauma therapists can advertise in a trauma-informed way. We also explore how COVID is impacting trauma treatment and tips for providing virtual trauma therapy.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Laura Reagan LCSW-C, Laura Reagan, LCSW-C is an integrative trauma therapist, clinical supervisor, consultant and coach. Since 2015 she has hosted Therapy Chat Podcast, where she interviews therapists, authors, researchers and other experts about psychotherapy, trauma, attachment, creativity, mindfulness, relationships and self compassion. In 2021 she launched a new podcast entitled Trauma Chat for anyone who is curious about what trauma is, how it shows up in our lives and how to find the right kind of help for your specific experience. She is the founder of Trauma Therapist Network, a website providing information and resources on trauma and a membership community for therapists. Learn more at www.traumatherapistnetwork.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Who Laura Reagan is and what she puts out in the world. * What therapists get wrong with trauma-informed care in regard to advertising. * How trauma therapists can be trauma-informed in their advertising. * Factors that make it difficult for clients to find a good trauma therapist. * What is trauma and what is trauma therapy? * How COVID is playing a role in trauma treatment. * Tips on how to provide effective virtual trauma therapy. * What therapists can do to support clients that do not have an ideal virtual environment. * If therapists should obtain more trauma training due to the impact of COVID. * Considerations therapists can make when deciding to specialize in trauma.
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what’s most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing. More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only. Go to simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
RevKey RevKey specializes in working with mental health professionals like you to increase not only clicks to your website, but helps you find your ideal patients. From simple startup packages and one time consultations to full Digital Marketing Management Services, RevKey can help you run successful digital marketing ads. RevKey creates customized packages and digital marketing budget recommendations that fit your business needs.
You'll never receive a data dump report that means nothing to you. Instead, RevKey provides clear concise communication about how your digital marketing ads are performing through meetings for video updates recorded just for you. RevKey is offering $150 off any setup fees for Modern Therapist Survival Guide listeners.
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Trauma Therapist Network
Therapy Chat Podcast
Trauma Chat Podcast
Relevant Episodes:
Managing Vicarious Trauma
What the Grief Just Happened?
Trauma Informed Workplace
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
Katie Vernoy 00:02
Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding SimplePractice changes that this practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important your clients by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
Curt Widhalm 00:18
Stick around for a special offer at the end of this episode.
Katie Vernoy 00:23
This podcast is also sponsored by RevKey
Curt Widhalm 00:26
RevKey is a Google Ads digital ads management and consulting firm that works primarily with therapists. Digital advertising is all they do, and they know their stuff. When you work with RevKey, they help the right patients find you ensuring a higher return on your investment in digital advertising. RevKey offers flexible month to month plans and never locks customers into long term contracts.
Katie Vernoy 00:49
Listen at the end of the episode for more information on RevKey.
Announcer 00:53
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:09
Welcome back Modern Therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapists for therapists. And we are once again joined by one of our therapy reimagined 2021 speakers. And returning to the podcast for the first time in like three plus years is Laura Reagan LCSW. And we are so excited to have you back. And once again talking about a lot of ways that we can improve and working with clients with trauma. So thank you for spending some time with us today.
Laura Reagan 01:45
Thanks so much for having me back. I'm really excited to be here.
Katie Vernoy 01:49
Yay. We're so excited to have you back. And we always ask our folks who are you? And what are you putting out into the world? And we'll share your other episode in our show notes. But you're putting something new out into the world. So for our new listeners, who are you and for our long standing listeners, what are you putting out into the world now?
Laura Reagan 02:08
Well, one of the things I put out into the world is that I'm a trauma therapist in the Baltimore area. And I work with clients directly and run a group practice. But also, I have two podcasts now, therapy chat, which has been out for six years. And then my new show is called trauma chat. That's really for the general public to learn about trauma and connected with both of those, after years and years of being asked by so many listeners for how they can find a trauma therapist, I created a new resource that's called trauma therapist network that includes information and resources about trauma. And it has a trauma therapists directory, which is the part that to me is the most exciting because it feels like something that's been needed for such a long time
Curt Widhalm 02:55
When it comes to trauma informed care that this is not just the things that we say and do when clients have come in, we've had a couple of sessions with them that a lot of this starts from people's first Google search of us that really being informed comes with the ways that we even advertise ourselves. In your experience of working in the trauma community and with trauma therapists. What are you seeing that some therapists might not be doing right, that might not be the most trauma informed as far as even like their advertising goes?
Laura Reagan 03:35
Well, that's a great question. I mean, one of the things is, if anybody pulls up a listing on Psychology Today, for example, everybody knows that is a pretty big therapists directory, you might, you know, you might find Suzy Smith, LPC and, you know, Eugene Oregon, who, there's 50 checkmarks, filled in on Susie's profile that say, you know, beginning with A, it's like, ADHD, anxiety, you know, depression, that everything and then when you get to P, it says, or T trauma slash PTSD. So, if someone is looking for a trauma therapist, and they find that, you know, and they also see that Susie specializes in Bipolar Disorder, you know, every mental health diagnosis under the sun, it's for the potential client who's looking they're like, so what lets me know, this person knows about trauma, like it seems like they do at all it's like a general kind of thing. And, you know, trauma is so specific, even though it's super common in mental health treatment seeking populations. You know, it's a very common experience for people. It's not the same as just, I know how to help you with anxiety. People who are looking for a trauma therapist are overwhelmed, because trauma makes you feel overwhelmed. And it, you know, it's hard to focus, there's a lot of ways that it can really impact you. So once you realize that you need a trauma therapist, and you go looking for one, and then you've, you know, Susie and 25, other people come up on that page on Psychology Today. And they all have all the same things marked. It's really hard for clients to discern how to know if this is going to be the right person to help them with the specific thing that they need help with. Because even in the umbrella term of trauma, there's so many specific types of trauma that are not all. treated the same way even though you may use some of the same methods, it's, you know, you need some specific understanding of how those particular issues affect people.
Katie Vernoy 05:52
What would you recommend that trauma therapists, true trauma therapists do to make it clear that they are trauma therapists? The type of traumas they work with? Like, what what do you think would be helpful? And I think kind of nodding to Curt's question, what would be trauma informed in them setting up a profile or a website? Or those types of things? What are the things that would be helpful there?
Laura Reagan 06:16
I think some of the things that are really important are, you want to come across as non judgmental, not just say, I'm non judgmental, but you want it to feel like that when people look, and people want to feel that you're going to understand them. They want to feel a warmth from you. But also like, not too jargony not too wordy. You know, like, concise, speak to
Curt Widhalm 06:43
Don't, don't throw out the 9 million acronyms of letters that all of us therapists are so keen on collecting.
Laura Reagan 06:51
Right? limited to six or less different acronyms after your name. Maybe two, if you have to. But um, no, just like, you know, they want to, they want to know, like, do you know how to do EMDR? What population Do you specialize with? You know, Curt you and I talked to my podcasts recently, and you work with teens. And you can use EMDR with a broad range of presenting issues, but let them know what you're good at what you're really experienced with so that they can see, okay, I have combat trauma, and this person has specialization in people who lived through their house burning down. You know, it's not the same. I mean, there's similarities, there's a lot of overlap in all trauma work. But there's, there's also, you know, there's a difference between someone who was physically abused in childhood, someone who was emotionally neglected, someone who was sexually abused in childhood, someone who was raped in college, you know, they're all the different, someone who lost a parent when they were 15, someone who lost a parent when they were five, you know, different, even different developmental stages of traumatic experiences can impact us differently. And, you know, was it an ongoing traumatic experience, like being in an abusive relationship as an adult? Or was it a, you know, trauma from being assaulted at a bar fight, it's different. So people who work with trauma, do know those differences, but they may not always convey that in what they're presenting out to clients who are looking for them.
Curt Widhalm 08:36
So you're speaking to, you know, this from kind of the therapist side of things as far as things that we do that confused clients? Are there other things that we might not be touching on yet that makes it really hard for clients to find a good trauma therapist?
Laura Reagan 08:56
Well, yeah, what comes to mind immediately is that people don't recognize that they have trauma, which is one of the reasons why I made trauma chat, podcast and the website, because experiences that are common, like feeling like nobody paid attention to you when you were growing up. That's not uncommon in our culture, in the US, but you know, if you feel worthless, and you don't love yourself, you hate yourself. And it's related to that. You think you hate yourself, because you should be hating yourself because you're awful, but really, it's because of what what happened when you were younger. So I think a big piece is and one of the things that I'm really trying to do both with therapy chat trauma chat, while all three the website are to help people begin to recognize that if you feel this way and this happened in your life, it's highly likely that the reason you feel that way is because you're impacted by trauma or and when I say trauma, and this isn't what everyone does, but for me when I say trauma, I'm really lumping attachment wounds from childhood into that as well, because those are, you know, part of what makes part of what makes healing from trauma so difficult. After you go through a traumatic situation, if people help you, they believe you, they care, they take it seriously and they, you know, they attend to what you need, you're going to not be as likely to have long term impact like PTSD, as you would if you you go through something and it's minimized, your parents are telling you not to just, you know, get over it not talk about how you feel. And I'm like keep saying like childhood trauma, because that's what's so prevalent. We know from the adverse childhood experiences study, it's more than 60% of adults in the US. But, you know, it's pretty much thought to be carries over around the world have childhood trauma. So if, if people don't take you seriously, they don't believe you, they minimize invalidate, and they're not attuned to how you're feeling, following those traumatic experiences, you're much more likely to develop PTSD, or complex PTSD symptoms. So the attachment piece is an important part of healing from trauma.
Katie Vernoy 11:25
So I'm hearing you say that therapists need to be specific and talk about the types of traumas they work with. But there's also this other piece of being able to really educate or explain what could be trauma, you know, these attachment wounds or those types of things so that clients can identify themselves and and know, they're getting a trauma therapist that has particular training, as well as they can identify that they have trauma, and I see how that could be very, very helpful. I, I guess, and and this is maybe maybe I'm going down a rabbit hole, but I feel like there's there's kind of the colloquial, I'm so traumatized this is trauma, everything has become trauma. And then there are the types of things that really require trauma informed or specific trauma treatments. So I guess the question is a two part like, what is trauma? And what is trauma therapy? Because I think, for our we have, like you we have audience that is both therapy, therapy therapists and therapy clients. And so how are you defining trauma and trauma therapy?
Laura Reagan 12:38
That's a good question, I guess, it depends would be my best answer. But, you know, so if you if you're someone who, let's say you have persistent anxiety that you've dealt with, say, you're 35 years old, you're you've always been anxious, and then you become a parent and your anxiety starts to increase, you may not be thinking, I need to go find trauma therapy. So a therapist who's trauma informed, should be able to identify that it's highly likely that someone who's always been anxious is probably anxious because of something related to either unmet attachment needs in childhood or something traumatic that happened, that they may not be identifying that way. And so you know, you would want to know, if they've been through anything traumatic. And I think, you know, this is a sidebar, but one of the big mistakes that therapists make is they ask people in the initial intake, do you have any history of trauma? And the person says, “No”, and they go, “Okay, well, you have anxiety, so we'll just work with the anxiety.” And yeah, you should work with the anxiety, of course, but, you know, longer term trauma therapy is always about, why do you have this anxiety, you weren't just born with anxiety, or you were, but it's got to be related to something. Somehow it started, you know, that's not our natural state. So, of course, feeling anxious is something we all have. And sometimes we're sad, but I'm not talking about just sometimes being anxious or sometimes being sad, but I'm talking about like, persistent, always anxious, you know, and sometimes it's panic attacks or whatever. So, a trauma informed therapist could identify that this person probably is impacted by trauma and asked questions about their family of origin or their relationships just to get, you know, a sense of what that's like and maybe figure out what their attachment style is, and, and work with that even without really saying, we're going to work with your attachment style, and we're gonna work on healing your attachments and all that. So, then there's people who are like, I've been to a therapist. I've learned coping skills It's great. But they don't always work. Some of these things just I can't seem to change. And that's when people are more likely to be searching for real. Like, I want trauma therapy. And then they think you know that a lot of people think that means like, I'm going to go to therapy, I'm going to tell my story from beginning to end, you know, I'm going to talk about what happened, and until it doesn't hurt to talk about it anymore, but that's not really what most of the time is happening in trauma therapy nowadays.
Laura Reagan 15:32
So it's more, you know, for me what trauma therapy is, I use a longer term model, I usually work with people for, you know, a minimum of a year, but usually, you know, two to three years or more, because it takes a while to heal the attachment wounds that, you know, through the therapeutic relationship in the work. So, there's a three phase approach that explained in Judith Harmons, 1992, book, Trauma And Recovery, that, you know, it starts with safety and stabilization, then you move into remembrance and mourning, and then integration of the traumatic experiences into your life. So it's basically taking someone from being very fragmented at the beginning and in crisis. So it's emotional safety and physical safety that you're working with, depending on their situation. And then remembrance and mourning is, you know, all those fragments that have not really been able to be part of who you are, because your capacity to cope during those experiences was overwhelmed. You know, you begin to look at them and say, oh, when, you know, the first day of school when I was so scared, and you know, my mom didn't even ask me how my day went when I got home. Or, you know, so I just felt like, I couldn't talk about it. And I just had to deal with it by myself. Now, that might be considered traumatic. I know, people might not really necessarily think of that that way. But yeah, or I went home and no one was there. And then, you know, just like usual, everyone ignored me. And I felt alone. And I just went and played video games until I fell asleep or something like that. That's when you start to look at those things and say, “How did I really feel about that”, and, you know, begin to work with expanding the person's window of tolerance, to be able to think about those experiences and feel the emotions that go with them without having to dissociate from them. And then kind of grieving what was lost. And then reintegration is when you kind of are like, bringing it all back to being one whole person with those experiences that yes, they did happen, but they don't derail you now, you know, they were painful, but you can talk about them, you can feel the feelings, and you can still stay within your window of tolerance. I mean, briefly, that's what, that's what trauma therapy is like when you're doing longer term work. And I think a really important piece is understanding dissociation, which is something that even for people who get training in trauma, a lot of times dissociation is not part of it. And so they don't learn how to assess and identify when the client is dissociating during the sessions. And so sometimes they're accidentally re traumatizing the client by, you know, getting into material that the client is seemingly, they're talking with you about it, but really, they're not fully here with you at all. And you don't, you don't know how to, you don't know how to like see that when it's happening and help them get back to being within their window of tolerance. So that's a really important piece is the dissociation and that's still just kind of beginning to come to some people's awareness, despite the fact that, you know, places like ISSTD have been talking about it for, like 30 years.
Curt Widhalm 18:55
I don't think that this conversation is complete in modern time without bringing up, how are you seeing the role of COVID play out and some of this longer term treatment to?
Laura Reagan 19:05
Yeah, well, for me, I'd be interested to hear if you want to share anything about that. But for me, it's like, if you're working with people virtually during COVID, how safe are they where they are, even first of all, like, do they have privacy? And how? How much in survival mode are they right now? You know, being able to assess how well they're really functioning. Because if they're doing their session at home, and they do have privacy, it might look like they're more grounded than they would normally be in the session. But what's, you know, how supportive is their environment when when the session ends for them to have space to feel what they feel and I'm pretty cautious about I definitely have not been doing as deep work with most of my clients during COVID Because, you know, I know that they have an ongoing trauma that they're living through now. And for some people, it's much more that they're really in crisis and in survival mode. And for other people. They are okay, because they're really well resourced. But somewhere in the middle, I think there's somewhat of a complacency about COVID, for many of us at this time, but, you know, if you think about what's going to activate your threat response system, in response to a trauma, you know, an invisible threat outside that is in all other people, and you don't know what, who's the one that's going to cause you to get the life threatening disease, that's a pretty severe an invisible threat that you have no control over is pretty much a huge trauma trigger. And, and the long-sustained time of living under that, sort of like living in an abusive home and just being so used to it that you don't even know you're in an abusive home.
Katie Vernoy 21:05
It's interesting, because you talked about the virtual elements, as well as the the kind of the collective trauma of COVID. I know, for myself, I have, I've had, it's gone in phases, where there's been a lot of safety and resourcing and coping strategies and trying to make sure kind of like, let's get from day to day, let's get through this thing. And then there are times when it feels like things can go deeper. But I've also been very cautious of going too deep, because I think there isn't the same resources. You know, social support looked very different for a long time. And still does, I think people are, you know, I've also got clients who are setting better boundaries, because there's this, you know, this way to do it. So I think that, you know, it's definitely an individual experience. But for me, and I think this continues forward, because we have some therapists who want to stay virtual kind of continuously, like, this is the new thing, I'm gonna be virtual forever. And I think it, I kept wanting a resource that's like, okay, okay, I know how to set up the setup. I know, ethically and legally what to do with a virtual therapy office. But how do I do good clinical work? And I think on top of that, how do I do really good trauma informed care? via video? And so what do you know about that, Laura? Because Because you're in this space, and you're talking to so many people, what are the best practices, especially for trauma survivors, folks, you know, that have had and technically I guess all of society is being traumatized. So this is everyone. But how do we do this? How do we do this? with video?
Laura Reagan 22:45
Yeah, I don't think I have all the answers by any means. But I think it's umm, I didn't think that the presence and energy would be able to be felt, as well through virtual therapy, as it turns out to be, you know, I can still be talking with someone, yesterday I was talking with someone and a couple things, they said, I got chills all over my body. You know, and that's a typical, like your mirror neurons picking up what the other person is feeling during a session. So that's normal during an in person session to just be having all kinds of somatic indicators telling you, either your stuff is getting triggered, or giving you information about what's coming up for the other person. And that's still happens in virtual sessions for me, but you know, I think it's the relationship and the presence that you bring, and really knowing your client and being attuned to what's happening. There's a lot of drawbacks. I mean, I do practice from a somatic perspective, and I can't see their whole body. You know, so a lot of times, like, they're kind of shaken a little bit. I'm like, you know, what's is your foot going, like, what's happening? What are you noticing right now? And they might say,” Oh, well, you can't see. But my foots like shaking really fast”, or things like that, or, you know, there's a lot of limitations to it. But another thing that sort of a unexpected twist, for my experience of it is, is noticing how some of my clients are so much more comfortable, because they're at their house, and they're not in my office space, you know, which I think of as this warm and safe little nest for them, but that's not necessarily their experience. They've they're coming here, it's my it's my warm nest, it's not their warm nest. So yeah, those are some of the benefits being able to be in their own space and feel comfortable and then being able to take care of themselves and not having to drive because sometimes when you leave a therapy session, you're a little bit disoriented and then you got to go back out in rush hour traffic. So but I would say you know, all the typical things about, certainly if someone's in an unhealthy relationship or an unsafe relationship, that therapist should be very attuned to who's there any signs that, you know, the someone else could be, you know, intruding or crossing boundaries about the client's privacy, especially teens, you know, kids, parent that's just sort of standing like right out of the frame where you can't see them. And the kids like, acting less open, and you're not sure why but you hear sneeze and you're like, wait a second. Or you notice I'm looking, you know, it's like, what's what's happening? So? I don't I don't have all the answers on that. But it's definitely a dance.
Curt Widhalm 25:47
What kinds of things have you learned over this last year, as far as supporting clients in their environments where they are facing kind of this constant, like, if I go outside COVID possibility, if they are in their houses, with the very people who have caused all of those emotional traumas from growing up, etc. Anecdotally, what are you finding works for your clients,
Laura Reagan 26:18
As the therapist, you have to be very flexible. And attunement is just so important, you know, knowing your client, and I've seen people's dissociative symptoms worsen when they're, let's say, a college student who goes home for the summer, and they're in their parents house, and that's where their abuse took place. And, you know, even though no one else is home during the session, they can't feel grounded and safe there. So, you know, let's say we were doing phase three work before COVID, we're probably going to be doing phase one work, you know, safety and stabilization. So, but again, some people can go deeper than you expect. Maybe they can go deeper than they did when they were in your office or my office, because they feel comfortable where they are. So they can let their guard down more I don't, you know, it's probably a balance, some people are more constricted, and some people are more expansive, because of the fact that they're doing the session in their house. But I know for some clients who have some physical disabilities, and a lack of privacy at home, there's been great difficulty in being able to find virtual sessions to be effective, because there's many factors that are interfering with being able to just even be comfortable in the session.
Katie Vernoy 27:52
So I think we could dive into virtual therapy forever, because I think there's going to be so much more therapy done there. But I guess I want to switch gears a little bit and go to the fact that most of society has had at least a small t trauma, if not a big T trauma with a global pandemic. And there is a huge need for therapists to at least be trauma informed, if not to become trauma therapists. So for the new therapists, for the students out there, what is it important for those therapists to know, when deciding to specialize in trauma.
Laura Reagan 28:31
There's a set of factors that should be present if you want to practice in a trauma informed way. And it has everything to do with how you are with the client, how the space is that you are with the client in so if you're together in a physical space, you know, everything from the way the lighting is, you know, I mean, there's a big difference between how comfortable people feel when they walk into a waiting room with indirect lighting and comfortable seating and a fountain going and some spa music versus clinic where it's institutional looking fluorescent lights. And we can't always control that. But, you know, everything we can do that makes it feel more calm, and regulating to the nervous system, all the way around, both from the space and the way we interact with people is, is really important. And I mean, like you, I think that everyone's going to need to be at least trauma informed because of the pandemic. But I also think that everybody really needs to be trauma informed anyway, because of how prevalent trauma is. You don't have to specialize in trauma. But you should assume that the majority of people that you come into contact with as clients have experienced some kind of trauma like you said, little t trauma or something that's probably related to why they feel the way they do. And an empathic attuned presence is more important than any training you get in having successful therapeutic relationships with clients who have experienced trauma, be really cognizant about victim blaming and minimizing and like, you're still upset about that. But that was five years ago, 20 years ago, you know, because that's what people think already, people who've experienced trauma. You know, there's certain phrases that everyone says, if they've been through trauma like, well, what I went through wasn't that bad. I mean, so many other people have been through so much worse, that's almost like a script that every single client who has trauma says, or well, I should have known better, or I shouldn't have done this, or well, it's pretty much my own fault, because this, those are clues that the person might be having a trauma reaction, so but also the importance of self-care for the therapist, you know, and this isn't about directly how we work with clients. But it is because if we're not taking care of ourselves, getting enough rest, sleep, there's rest, and then there's sleep, two separate things, movement, oftentimes being in our own therapy, to work through our own issues that we've had in our lives, being aware of vicarious trauma, if you do work with people who have experienced trauma, and I think vicarious trauma is worse, when you don't really understand the impact of trauma on your clients, because you don't understand why you're having the reaction you're having. But vicarious trauma is pretty much an occupational hazard for therapists and therapists who work with trauma. So the way you space out your sessions, the more you make sure that you are, well, obviously, the better you'll be in your work with clients. And when you aren't able to do that as much as you need. That's when we risk doing harm, which we never want to do. Trauma informed, I think if you have a trauma informed approach, working with trauma, clients who have trauma is appropriate. But if you don't believe in trauma, or you don't think it's really you think it's just nothing special. Nothing different. And it's tricky, because our schools of our grad schools don't really teach us about trauma in general. You can really, unintentionally do harm, and it can drive people away from seeking help. It's, it's really hard for people who have trauma, to ask for help anyway, because their experiences, nobody cares. No one will understand. It wasn't that big of a deal. There's just something wrong with me. And that's why it seems like such a big deal to me. And those unfortunately, those messages get reinforced through negative experiences in therapy, even when it's unintentional on the therapist part,
Curt Widhalm 33:10
Where can people find out more about you, and all of the projects that you've got going on?
Laura Reagan 33:18
Everything I'm doing now is on my website, traumatherapistsnetwork.com. And I would like to say that Trauma Therapists Network and the directory that it has, it's not just for people who specialize in trauma, if you use a trauma informed approach, you can definitely sign up. Because, you know, some people might think, Oh, I'm not certified in trauma. So I shouldn't sign up for this. But it's really about really letting people know what you know. So there are places to, you know, the checkmarks are like what types of trainings you've had? And what specific areas of trauma you do best with? You know, is it domestic violence? Or is it combat trauma? Or is it loss of a parent and childhood? Or is it someone who was in a car crash, or bike accident? It's all it's all there and needing help. And all of those presentations are there, people are out there. And if you can let them know what you know, they can link up with the one that's really the right fit for their specific situation. And that's, that's the whole idea of the directory aspect.
Katie Vernoy 34:31
You said that it's a directory and a network I what are the other things that are included there? I know you have your two podcasts, what else? What else? What's the whole picture? Okay, yeah.
Laura Reagan 34:41
So of course, it's it's developing. I mean, it's it just went live 10 days ago, but right now it has blog posts that are you know, informational about trauma and there are more being added all the time. The podcasts episodes are there with transcripts for both podcasts. And there are resource lists of specific things. So not everybody who has trauma wants or can get trauma therapy for whatever reason. So hotlines, websites, books, podcasts, and one of the things I really like and want to develop for therapists who participate is for them to be able to share the blog posts that they've written podcasts that they've been on, not just therapy chatter, trauma chat podcast episodes, but their, you know, think your podcast and other things that people have done YouTube videos, they have courses they're offering. So it's a way to really let people find help with trauma, whether it's just learning about it, or reading about it, you know, and, and pursuing something on their own to taking a course doing some kind of webinar, you know, somatic work in trauma, that isn't therapy, you know, so. And then for the therapists, again, it's also going to be, we're going to gather, so I don't know when we'll be able to gather in person, but we're going to have at least virtual meetings where you know, we can share and support one another. And because, you know, whether you're a therapist or a client, trauma is very isolating. And so the more we can bring connection, that's why I'm calling it a network I want I want clients to feel like they're connecting. And I want therapists to feel like they're connecting both with clients and other therapists and other people who do this work.
Katie Vernoy 36:41
That sounds amazing.
Curt Widhalm 36:43
And we'll include links to all of Laura's stuff and her network in our show notes. You can find those over at MTSGpodcast.com And check out all of the latest updates on the therapy, reimagined conference and all of our speakers and all the cool things that we're doing for that you can find that out at therapyreimaginedconference.com, and follow us on our social media. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Laura Reagan.
Katie Vernoy 37:12
Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice.
Curt Widhalm 37:15
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Katie Vernoy 37:33
Get your first two months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only. Please note that we are a paid affiliate for SimplePractice. So we'll get a little bit of money in our pocket. If you sign up at this link. Simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. And that's where you can learn more.
Curt Widhalm 37:54
This episode is also sponsored by RevKey.
Katie Vernoy 37:58
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Curt Widhalm 38:21
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Katie Vernoy 38:38
You can find more at RevKey.com and make sure to mention that you're a Modern Therapist Survival Guide listener.
Announcer 38:45
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
The Balance Between Boundaries and Humanity An interview with Jamie Marich, Ph.D, on what it means to redefine therapy and how therapists can incorporate this idea into their practice. Curt and Katie talk with Jamie about the importance of therapists being vulnerable both with clients and publicly about their own mental health struggles to reduce the mental health stigma. We also explore factors that keep therapists from being vulnerable as well as other therapeutic and cultural considerations when doing so.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jamie Marich, Ph.D, Dr. Jamie Marich (she/they) is a clinical trauma specialist, expressive artist, writer, yogini, performer, short filmmaker, Reiki master, TEDx speaker, and recovery advocate, she unites all of these elements in her mission to inspire healing in others. Jamie maintains a private practice and online education operations in her home base of Warren, OH. Marich is the founder of the Institute for Creative Mindfulness and the developer of the Dancing Mindfulness approach to expressive arts therapy. Marich is the author of several books, including EMDR Made Simple: 4 Approaches for Using EMDR with Every Client (2011), Trauma and the Twelve Steps: A Complete Guide for Recovery Enhancement (2012), Trauma Made Simple: Competencies in Assessment, Treatment, and Working with Survivors, and Dancing Mindfulness: A Creative Path to Healing and Transformation (2015). NALGAP: The Association of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender Addiction Professionals and Their Allies awarded Jamie with their esteemed President’s Award in 2015 for her work as an LGBT advocate. The EMDR International Association (EMDRIA) granted Jamie the 2019 Advocacy in EMDR Award for her using her public platform in media and in the addiction field to advance awareness about EMDR therapy. Marich is in long-term addiction recovery and is actively living with a Dissociative Disorder.
In this episode we talk about: * Who Jamie Marich is and what she puts out in the world. * The story behind #RedefineTherapy. * A look at what needs to be redefined in therapy and why. * Discussion about balancing the art and science of therapy to allow for more flexibility within our field. * Factors that contribute to clinicians rigidly adhering to evidenced based practices. * How clinicians can make changes at a societal level to redefine therapy. * The importance of clinicians being vulnerable and sharing their own struggles with mental health. * An exploration of the balance between being authentic/vulnerable with clients and setting appropriate boundaries. * Cultural considerations in redefining therapy. * What keeps therapist from being vulnerable in therapy. * Using a both/and approach to merge how therapy has been done in the past and how it will be done in the future as therapy continues to be redefined and reimagined.
Our Generous Sponsor: Buying Time, LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Institute for Creative Mindfulness
Trauma Made Simple
Relevant Episodes:
Exploring Trauma and the 12 Steps
Dissociation in Therapy
Being a Therapist on Both Sides of the Couch
How To Be a Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the modern therapist travel guide is sponsored by Buying Time,
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time as a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. from basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklists which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at BuyingTimellc.com/system-checklist
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapists. And we are once again joined by one of our audience's favorite, one of my favorite people. Dr. Jamie Marich. She's back with us for a third time, she has talked about dissociation before, trauma, and the 12 steps. She's joining us as one of our keynote presenters at Therapy Reimagined 2021. And just always so pleasant to have you. And thank you for spending some of your day with us.
Jamie Marich 01:27
Well, it's my great pleasure to be here again for the third time.
Katie Vernoy 01:32
First, third time guests first real third time guests. Sorry, Ben. I'm excited. So we'll definitely put your other episodes in our show notes so people can find all of the wonderful knowledge that you've shared. But for our new listeners, who are you and what are you putting out into the world.
Jamie Marich 01:50
So I am Jamie Marich, my pronouns are she/they, I am the founder and director of the Institute for Creative Mindfulness. That's my main professional gig. We are a training program primarily focusing on EMDR therapy. Yet, we also do training in expressive arts therapy and some of the modalities that are related. Curt was in one of our first classes of EMDR therapy training. So Curt has a special place in our heart. And EMDR therapy has been my primary trauma modality that I've used through my whole career. Although expressive arts trauma and forming 12 step work, clinical trauma focused yoga, meditation, I do a lot of things, because I do think that is required to be a good trauma focused therapist to have have a pretty amazing repertoire. So I also write books, I love to write mostly for other clinicians, yet some of the writing I've done has also ventured out into reaching the general public. And I just love hanging out and chatting with people who are doing innovative things. Because to really change this world, we don't just need to think outside of the box. I really think we need to shatter it and a lot of ways. So I'm game to chat with people who are doing that.
Curt Widhalm 03:02
We have Therapy Reimagined. And you've been using hashtag redefine therapy kind of independently, we've kind of each come to our own conclusions in this. What's your story behind redefine therapy?
Jamie Marich 03:18
Yeah, so the redefine therapy hashtag was birthed in 2015. Right when my book dancing, mindfulness came out. So dancing, mindfulness is a movement modality that I, I don't like to say I created it because dance and mindfulness are two of the oldest healing mechanisms on the planet. I believe I put them together as a modality for trauma informed expressive arts therapy. And that happened pretty early on in my work. And then in 2015, I got to deal with skylight press publishing, to put out a book on Dancing Mindfulness that was more for encouraging people to develop an individualized practice and dancing mindfulness. And in the last chapter, I wrote in that book, how, yes, I'm a counselor, yes, I'm proud to be a counselor. But it's not really what's going on in traditional counseling offices that are exciting me so much anymore. It's what I see happening in communities with advocacy, what's happening in expressive modalities, what's happening with people connecting back with indigenous roots of healing. And I really think our therapy, especially our therapeutic profession, that's defined largely just by the talking cure needs a serious facelift. And I'm not that excited by therapy anymore, if that's what our field is going to be. And so I wrote up this chapter and then my editor at the time Emily comes back with Why don't you name this chapter redefining therapy? And I saw it I got chills. Everything in me said yes. And at the time, I thought was Oh, I can't do that. Like The establishment is going to think even more ill of me than they do already. But because I felt so excited by her suggesting that chapter titled redefining therapy, I said, This is what, this is what we got to do for sure. And then Holly Spielberg, who was my social media person at the time, started the hashtag redefine therapy. And I think since then, when you package together everything I do my approach to EMDR, my approach to therapy in general doing the expressive work, the community work. redefined. Therapy really defines who I am as a person. So it's very much a hashtag that I identify with and love to use.
Katie Vernoy 05:36
What parts of therapy needs redefining?
Jamie Marich 05:39
All of it? It's my gut answer. Well, oh, well, you know, where do I begin? I want to be very careful here. Because when I answer this question, I know it could come across like I am disparaging science, like I am disparaging research. And let me be very clear, I am not anti-science, especially around medical issues, as evidenced by what's going on in our modern climate. I do think, however, that when it comes to human services, when it comes to therapy, when it comes to the human condition, we actually do us a disservice by looking at it just as a science, because the human experience cannot be fully quantified. And I know a lot of people try, in order to legitimize us what we do as therapists to legitimize conditions like dissociative identity disorder, we have to scale it to prove that it exists. And as a result, a lot of the lived experience which really defined the building of healing professions gets neglected. So I trained in my doctoral work as a phenomenologist, which is a big fancy word saying the study of lived experience. And one of the core tenants of phenomenology as defined by Edmund Husserl is that the human experience cannot be quantified. That by its definition, phenomenology rejects any kind of Galilean scientific notions that the human experience can be quantified. And unfortunately, what what tends to happen is in in more modern times, when there's been more of this push to manualize, to go so medical model in order to legitimize what we're doing, a lot of the soul gets missing. And that's a idea that I have been emphasizing in a lot of my more recent writing. So I think if we're looking at overall, what needs to be redefined, it's that that therapists need to go back to listen, really listening to their clients. And I'm working on a new book right now. the working title is dissociation made simple, but we're still kind of playing around with that a little bit. Because I have other Made Simple books. But it's really giving me a platform to say everything I've ever really wanted to say about dissociation and in written form, I had the good chance, the good fortune for my interviews to interview Curt Rounds, and who's an EMDR legend and has been a mentor to me and was one of the true voices that I think really gets dissociation and the EMDR world and I asked him just like helped me understand your evolution, 40 years as a therapist, and he said something that really stuck with me that if you want to be a good therapist, work with a DID client and really listen to them, really listen to them. And so many of the other interviews that I'm doing for this book, which I'm in process of writing right now, are people revealing, I went to see a helper, whether that be a psychiatrist, whether that be a clinician, and it's like they were just throwing their fixes on me. And we're not really listening to what I needed.
Curt Widhalm 08:48
One of the things that I've really learned in my trainings under the Institute for Creative Mindfulness is really this embracing of providing a space for healing, that it's not just about treatment, as you just kind of defined in all of this kind of looking at the traditional therapeutic establishment, what is keeping them so rigid even as we do incorporate more and more different cultural ideals. We listen to more people with lived experience, we do take on more of this healing aspect. What's keeping the Fuddy duddies so rigid
Jamie Marich 09:32
I think it's a fear of them looking at their own trauma, a fear of them doing a lot of their own work. Even Curt and Katie amongst EMDR therapists who are, in theory supposed to be more trauma informed, right? I have observed such an us versus them mentality, with the people with complex trauma and dissociation. People with so called personality disorders and I find that once clinicians are willing to really drop that us versus them and do their own work, and I don't mean just like the 24 prerequisite hours, you may have to do in your graduate program, or just do a little spot check CBT here and there when you need it, but really do have yourself what you're asking your clients to do. And I think until the field embraces that more widespread, we are going to stay very stuck, we are going to stay very manualized we are going to stay very much in this, like expert pion type of role, which I don't think healing was ever intended to be in the first place. I mean, part of my work has taken me really into looking at indigenous roots of healing. And so many things from those indigenous cultures and their lessons of healing teaches us things like if you can go outside with people go outside with people - be in nature, it doesn't have to be so office bound, right? The importance of singing, silence, the expressive arts, dancing, drumming, getting actually experiential, with your healing, having a feeling experience, instead of just a thinking experience, is all very important. And I think so much of our modern culture has brought us to and I don't think there's necessarily anything unique about this last century that's done it, I think this has always been the human condition. And intense commercialization has just made it worse is this idea that feelings are bad. If you have feelings are weak. And I think as a society, we suffer long term and widespread from something I call feelings phobia. And I would wish that would not be an issue amongst clinical professionals. But the more and more clinical professionals I train, the more and more clinical professionals I interact with, there could still be this idea of I don't know what to do with their feelings, meaning my clients because I don't know what to do with my own. And that's where more of your cognitive manualized interventions just become safer.
Katie Vernoy 12:04
When there's so much of a competent space of like, I hear - this is what I do I do this to the clients I am able to, it's very controlled. And I think the messiness of real life is lost when we get so manualized I'm I was just as you were talking, I was thinking about how, in community mental health, I was taught how to write a behavioral note, and how to get the clients to say the things that I needed for my behavioral treatment plan, like it became this puzzle that oftentimes had nothing to do with the client at all. And so to me, this idea of being able to embrace the the lived experience, the messiness, I love getting outside, I love all of the things that you're talking about, it seems so important for us to make these moves, but you're saying it's societal, like as a society, we're not going to be able to do what we need to do. How do we address it at a, at a societal level? I mean, as therapists if that's what we're doing, we need to address it at a societal level, what are the what are the moves to make here?
Jamie Marich 13:14
So first thing I don't know when exactly this is going to air, we're recording it here, kind of middle-ish of August. I look at what just happened with Simone Biles and the Olympics. And the decision that she made to take care of herself physically because mentally she was not in the best place. And as anybody who follows current events knows there tended to be a split opinion online on Twitter, a lot of us applauding her for taking care of herself and then people disparaging her as weak. And I mean, I applaud Michael Phelps who not just in response to what happened with Simone Biles, but for the last several years has really been drawing attention to, to the plight of mental health. Well, I don't think celebrity holds all the answers, because there's certainly a lot of issue with celebrity culture, too. I really feel that people coming out is more of the answer. And I'll speak to what that means for us as therapists too, because I do think it can have a lot of impact when people have celebrity who are admired especially and I know, this is gonna sound a little weird, but especially someone like Michael Phelps, who is the greatest of all time and swimming and somebody who's seen as like this behemoth, who had good mental strength and all of this and I just applaud his willingness in recent years to show his vulnerability. If you haven't seen the weight of gold on HBO, it's fantastic. It's a deep dive into what a lot of athletes go through. But even at a non celebrity level, more of us just need to come out about our struggles. And that needs to include professionals like us, who on the surface allegedly have our shit together, because we have podcasts and accompany and run conference and yeah, and all of this. And as both of you know, I have progressively come out more and more with my struggles with every year of my life here and more and more about my background. And I get so many messages of people saying things like, Thank you Dr Marich for your vulnerability, and I'm so grateful for it, etc, etc. And I told my friend once I live for the day, when that's not such an oddity, and I get those kind of messages, because I think everybody has a right and could make an impact if they learned to, or were inspired to embrace vulnerability to or got what they needed, that might be the better way to say it got what they needed to feel safe enough to come out and be more vulnerable about struggles,
Curt Widhalm 15:44
In that sense. And with all of the social change that has been happening here over the last couple of years, whether it's regard to COVID, whether it's in regard to Black Lives Matter. Or we as a field, actually embracing these ideals. I mean, I know, people like you, and Katie and myself are but are we seeing these echoes really come out that is creating the space, because it does feel like we're potentially at a tipping point in our field to, embrace this.
Jamie Marich 16:18
And I think like a lot of places have tipping points, you're naturally going to have people who want to embrace it, you're going to have people who want to resist it. And you'll have people in that middle ground who know that change is inevitable, know that it's probably going to be best for them and their folks they work with if they embrace change, but they're dealing with the cobwebs, the sticking points. What What is keeping me from doing this? and Curt, I'm glad you mentioned, so much of what has been brought to the surface in the last year or COVID and Black Lives Matter, of course, being the obvious examples, although both represents struggles that are nothing new, as far as I'm concerned, right. And, you know, questions come up all the time. Is it the space of the therapist to be an advocate? Is it the space of the therapist to be political? Or do we need to be this blank slate as much as possible for our clients? And the answer for me has always been both/and because I know, as a clinician, I need to be able to bracket my biases enough if I'm working with somebody who sees the world differently than me. But I also know that with my public face, I think the more and more we have a public face like us, the more that we're established in our therapeutic community, we have to speak up. We have to really be be an advocate for these kinds of changes. And for me, my main platform, I've mounted as being vulnerable about your struggles, because that's the only way we'll break this divide because I think so much of what ails the world, the human condition is this excessive tendency we have the other and one of my books I cite pastor Nadia Weber has a super awesome progressive preacher. And she says, “I think our drug of choice in this society is thinking we're better than other people.”
Katie Vernoy 18:05
Oh, yeah.
Jamie Marich 18:07
Yes. And, and I think a lot of the changes that dominant culture members are being asked to make requires them to look at release any implicit lessons they've gotten that they're somehow better than others. So there's that there's there's a lot of work to do. But I think it is important for therapists, especially therapists who are more public facing meaning who have podcasts or run conferences or run training organizations to take these stands. I mean, that's something that we as ICM looked at very deeply last year where I, I took bolder stances with some of the political stances that we took, knowing I might alienate some customers. Right now, the Institute for Creative Mindfulness is sponsoring an EMDR therapy training program specifically for BIPOC. Clinicians. ICM is fortunate enough to have enough staff members, team members who are persons of color where they can run the training and the rest of us can stay out of the way. We've gotten hate mail about that from other therapists from other therapists, because they see it as separatists and divisive and ignoring the fact that there's literature and research and lived experience to show how people of color can benefit from having their own spaces without the white gaze, and how so many folks who are coming into the BIPOC training now are saying they were hesitant to do EMDR training before because they weren't sure how they were going to be met.
Katie Vernoy 19:44
It's a very different stance that you're describing. Then obviously the blank slate and curtain I've obviously talked about this a number of times that that the blank slate is bullshit but like how you know only only white men can be blank slates, right? I mean, there's, there's something we're bringing into the room. But even in that regard, I don't think that's true, either. It's just anyway, I won't go down that rabbit hole. But I think it's something where, when you've been talking about this vulnerability in public spaces, and an even this, us/them and getting rid of the stem, for me, I just have been really reflecting on conversations I've had with my own therapist, when I start relating to the stories that my clients have been telling and recognizing I'm like them, when I thought I wasn't, and, and it's, this is older work, but I felt like that was so monumental to me. And I hadn't realized how, like, the way you described, it really helped me put it into into kind of a frame is that in separating myself, it was very much for my safety and not for the benefit of the client. And I think oftentimes, the way when I was trained a million years ago, it was that we must kind of hold this safe frame, we have to kind of keep ourselves out of the room, we have to keep ourselves out of that. And we can't be vulnerable with our clients. And, and to me, I think it lacks an authenticity and it lacks connection. And it completely stifles creativity if we have to be so in this box of this protected space of I am the expert. So I don't know if I have a question there. But yeah,
Jamie Marich 21:40
I do have a response. Because to that, I would say and I'm really getting this lesson from doing the research on the new book. It's not to say we as therapists can't have boundaries with our clients. It's not to say we as therapists can't have boundaries about what we share publicly, because I think, and this is right from Brene Brown, how Yes, vulnerabilities, obviously, radically paraphrasing her. But basically, vulnerability is a good thing as she emphasizes in her work, but it does come with boundaries. So I think we could definitely have those boundaries. But a word that's been coming up a lot in the new interviews with for the book is the word transparency. So even for folks who have like profound DID, profound attachment trauma, who can get skittish, who can get very reactionary, when a boundary is set, have shared with me, we know that we value transparency, like saying upfront, this is what I can or can't do as a therapist, this is what I am or am not willing to do as a therapist. And if you can be transparent about that and get that established upfront. I think it does open the path to more vulnerability and authentic sharing in a way where it becomes safe enough for you and the client both because yeah, that's a whole other issue we can look at to right is what is appropriate to disclose of ourselves to clients, because I do think it has to be navigated on a case by case basis. I wrote an article on that once where you never wants to be making it all about you. But I also think a good part of therapy is getting feedback from your clients. And I'm not talking about like the survey feedback, because there's a whole school of therapy that promotes that. And yeah, I think that's for the more quantitatively minded, but for those of us who are more qualitatively minded, it's asking your clients questions like, how is this working for you? Is there any adjustments we feel we need to make here in order for you to get the most out of what you need here to reach your goals? And I've done right, ask clients before, do you find it helpful when I share about myself or not? And I, I will honor that.
Curt Widhalm 23:44
I think it's something that, you know, I serve on an ethics committee, I teach law and ethics. And this is a an area of the field that I see us embracing more of that we should share what our values are, and how we make our approaches because that does help make our clients better able to choose from an informed place better able to choose who their providers are. Right. And I think what this will do is help us to embrace you know, from from a client end and minimize the number of just like bad matches with therapists in order to create better opportunities for healing rather than pretending that we're this homogenous field.
Jamie Marich 24:32
Right. Yes, yes, yes. And you know, Curt, I touched on this in the EMDR training, where when we speak on complex trauma, we are in a newer world, where if a client asks you what you believe about something, you have to be able to answer it transparently. And it's not to say that, well, if you're a Trump supporter, and I'm a Biden supporter, we can't do therapy together because I know a lot of my folks do therapy across party lines. etc, etc. But I think the key is, sometimes when these conversations are had a person, a client decides they need to go elsewhere. I know when I chose my last therapist, and I was interviewing her, I wanted to know what she believed I needed to know what she believed. And her candidness, her transparency above that has really helped. Yet, I mean, I've also spent most of my career practicing in an area where a lot of people here believe differently than I do. And often times those roadblocks can provide an opportunity for building communication or working through a breach who I know, however, you may look at it. So I think part of redefining therapy is also recognizing a lot of the conversations we may have had back in grad school are not the real conversations we need to be having about how we handle doing therapy in the modern climate. So there's, there's that facet of it as well. Talking about law and ethics. Curt, you might find this interesting, I just did a really cool interview this week for the book with my state board here in Ohio. Because when I talk about coming out and radical transparency at a public level of therapists, a lot of the concern I get is, what if somebody turns me into my state board? What if a client sees something I've done publicly and turns me in, etc, etc. And, and there's a lot of this fear that by coming out, you're somehow going to be discredited. And that's a fear that I've worked through personally, because I've long stopped caring what people say about me. But I think there can be that sense of scariness with, you know, well, my livelihood be taken away, if it comes out what a hot mess I really am. And you had a very delightful conversation with the board about how things are handled, at least in our state, where I know it definitely put me at ease about being someone who's out. And I don't know if that would have been the case many, many years ago. So I think some of this, this advocacy about ending the stigma and people in the field are human, too, has has taken us in a good direction. But I really think and I know, I've talked about therapists coming out, and we've talked about celebrities coming out. But I think it can also be super amazingly powerful when someone like a lawyer comes out, or a finance manager, or just people in all walks of life, all walks of professions, it's been delightful having conversations with my legal team about mental health, opening the door for that. It's also I just think, so many people think they're the only one who go through things. And that's not an unusual thing. We've talked about that before. But I think people in professional positions who are afraid of getting discredited, they often feel they're the only ones going through something. And there's just a lot of power in admitting that we're not realizing that we can have connection and community together.
Katie Vernoy 28:06
It's an interesting idea to have community around mental health concerns, because I think that that idea of I'm not the only one. And all of those things, I guess the the place that my mind keeps going to is this fear that they that folks have around laws and ethics and, and that there's this movement of folks, whether it's decolonizing, therapy, reimagining therapy, redefining therapy, you know, blowing up therapy like that there's there's this idea that if we were to actually take therapy where it needs to go, all of the current law and ethics laws and ethics wouldn't actually apply. I think the three of us here, I don't think believe that. But I I think that the question I have is, is there room to truly move into these healing spaces as licensed clinicians, in ways that still still tie back to what we originally learned? Because it seems like there's, there's a spectrum of beliefs around the usefulness of therapy as it has been practiced.
Jamie Marich 29:19
That's a great question. I think my short answer is I don’t know, it's, it's an evolving, it's an evolving answer. It's an evolving answer. And, and I think I'm at my own career crossroads right now, where I look at going forward. Will I do more good as an advocate than a therapist, and I was an advocate who was a therapist, you know, or has therapeutic insight because I think about what's the definition of clinical work at least in Ohio, it's the diagnosis and treatment of mental and emotional disorders, right. And even though I'm you know, up in the air about the utility of dialects, even something like diagnosis, let's start there. I have a both and feeling about diagnosis, because on one hand, I think we can get too caught up in labeling people, we can get too caught up in defining people by their diagnosis. But I've also seen cases of where people read a diagnosis. And they feel completely empowered, because something actually describes me. Like, oh my gosh, never, nobody's ever shared this diagnosis, like the PTSD diagnosis, or we see it with with a dissociative diagnosis. And I've even seen some people get moved when they read the borderline personality disorder diagnosis, because it's while these, this describes what I struggled with, so I mean, that's an example of a both and where I'm not at the place where I'm totally anti diagnosis. But there's some clients I'll work with where it's like, I don't think really, we need to worry about the label. Like we know, trauma is an issue. We know trauma healing is an issue. What do we need to put down to play the game? You know, so to speak. But then if you look at the second part of that, in our definition, treatment of mental and emotional disorders now part of the conversation now is, okay, what's a disorder. And we know the correct definition here, where there's functional impairment at cetera, et cetera. But even a lot of us in the dissociation community, like I technically have a dissociative disorder by diagnosis, at least how I was diagnosed. But I've embraced the identifier that one of my colleagues uses right now, which is dissociative mind, or she'll say I have a dissociative experience of life. Because for me, it's no longer a disorder. But it is still something that I live with. I think a big part of being trauma informed is a willingness to be flexible with language, a willingness to be flexible with concepts. And I'm always the kind of person who's lived in the both/and where I and I think, you know, that with my trauma and 12 step work, like I'm a vicious 12 step critic, but I don't think we have to throw it all out either. And at least for now, as I tried to negotiate this question of up, does the therapeutic system need to have blown up? I like that you said that, Katie, because there are some days, I feel that there are some days, I feel like I'm working in the service of the therapy industrial complex. And the real good work I do is when I still talk to 12 step sponsors, and it's a relationship or no money is exchanged. It's just the human experience. But you know, do we have a right to make? So all of these questions, they can keep me up at night? I'm not gonna lie. Unfortunately, I've tools to deal with a lot of that. But I think for now, even answering your question here, I think a lot of it is the both/and I think we need quantitative and qualitative, for example, with research and something I'm going to talk about in the conference presentation, is how quantitative empirical research can be viewed as the language of white supremacy. Whereas qualitative research encompasses more of the indigenous lived experience of healing. We're living in a world right now where we're navigating both. So let's bring in both
Curt Widhalm 33:06
Where can people find out more about you? And I would just say, the projects that you're working on, because I know that your resume of books and presentations and everything else, where can people find out more about you?
Jamie Marich 33:23
Well, they could come hang out with us at the Therapy Reimagined. Coming up here in September, I'm so delighted to be keynoting. A couple different places to find me online Instituteforcreative mindfulness.com is my main website for the company that I run, JamieMarich.com is the easiest way you can get all my books cataloged in one place. And then traumamadesimple.com is the free resources site that I keep, that's where all of my videos, articles, things I've done for free, are collected in one place on Twitter, I'm at Jamie Marich, Instagram, Dr. Jamie M. And just type in my name on Facebook, you'll find me in a couple different professional contexts.
Curt Widhalm 34:06
Yeah. And we will include links to all of that in our show notes over at MTSGpodcast calm. And as Jamie mentioned, she'll be therapy reimagined. And for all of our latest updates on that, get your tickets and all of our latest COVID precautions. Check out therapy reimagined conference calm and our social media will also include links to those in the show notes as well for all of the updates and they're just changing every single day. So we will do our best to keep things updated as well as we can on our social media and on our websites. So until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Jamie Marich.
Katie Vernoy 34:55
Thanks again to our sponsor Buying Time
Curt Widhalm 34:57
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Katie Vernoy 35:26
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Announcer 35:42
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Understanding the Psychological Impacts of Leaving Afghanistan, Part 2: Afghan Americans An interview with Sara Stanizai, LMFT, on how Afghan Americans are responding as the US leaves Afghanistan. Curt and Katie talk with Sara about her experience as an Afghan American therapist, looking at the misconceptions, lack of knowledge, and bias that can harm Afghan American clients. We look at clinical best practices for immigrants to the US, as well as some of the history and cultural norms of the country, the uniqueness of the experience, and the importance of finding primary sources to understand what is really going on. Sara also shares ideas for what we can do to support the Afghan people in Afghanistan and the diaspora at this time.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Sara Stanizai, LMFT Sara Stanizai, LMFT (she/her) is a licensed therapist, clinical supervisor, and the owner of Prospect Therapy, a queer- and trans-affirming therapy practice based in Long Beach, CA, with a special focus on serving first-generation American and immigrant communities. A queer first-gen herself, Sara’s clinical and professional work focuses on serving the Afghan diaspora, specifically, fellow Afghan-American women, and bicultural communities in general. She runs a weekly Afghan-American women's group and will be offering this free of charge in the coming weeks to meet the mental health needs of her community.
In addition to running her group practice, she is on the Board of Directors of the Los Angeles Bisexual Task Force, a 501c3 organization that champions education, advocacy and visibility for the bi+ communities of greater Los Angeles. She is a certified cognitive therapist through the Academy of Cognitive Therapy and holds an advanced certificate in transgender affirming therapy from Widener University. She completed her MA in Clinical Psychology from the Chicago School of Professional Psychology and her undergraduate degree at Mount Holyoke College.
In this episode we talk about: * Sara’s experience being an Afghan American, especially since 9/11; as well as her response to the US withdrawal from Afghanistan * Afghan Americans: the displaced among the displaced * The real issues that folks in Afghanistan are facing, separate from the perspective of western cultural and the differences in the Afghan American experience * Historical context for Afghanistan and the memories of Afghan Americans that shape their views: Culture, art, progressive, beautiful, diverse * Not feeling Afghan enough or American enough * The value of hospitality and how Afghanistan will always welcome Afghan Americans * How Islam intertwines (but is not equivalent) to the Afghan culture * Modesty and values and the bias toward Muslim women who wear headscarves * Bias and misperceptions that can negatively impact clients * The complexity of Islam and how it can be perceived both as beautiful and nature-loving as well as dangerous and militant * The challenge to identity being an Afghan American * The danger of pity coming into the therapy room * The importance and nuance of educating yourself outside of the therapy room, while also encouraging the client of sharing their own experience. Not: What does this mean? Instead: What does this mean to you? * The Afghan culture requires offering 3 times before determining that the answer is no * Collectivism and the importance of family * Impact of intergenerational trauma and military involvement in a home country * Seeking out primary sources, with a focus on Afghan voices as the experience is truly unique * Avoid sensationalized headlines and images * Challenging what has been “truth” especially when looking at these sensationalized stories * Ways of healing and clinical practice that are better aligned to these clients * Prayer and healing within safe community spaces * Considerations on scheduling session around prayer time and understanding fasting * The lack of language for what is being experienced * Offering connection, even when you don’t know what to say * The focus on trying to get family and friends out of Afghanistan, constantly watching the news * Ideas for what you can do to support the people of Afghanistan * The importance of legal support, translation services, and advocacy at this time * The support group for Afghan women that Sara runs
Our Generous Sponsor: Buying Time, LLC Buying Time is a full team of Virtual Assistants, with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. From basic admin support, customer service, and email management to marketing and bookkeeping. They’ve got you covered. Don’t know where to start? Check out the systems inventory checklist which helps business owners figure out what they don’t want to do anymore and get those delegated asap. You can find that checklist at http://buyingtimellc.com/systems-checklist/
Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Sara’s website: Prospect Therapy
Sara’s Instagram: Prospect Therapy
Sara’s group for Afghan Women
Literacy and Love
Hand to Hand Sadaqah group
Instagram - ideas of how to take action from Sara
Article from New York Times: How to Help Afghan Refugees and the Relief Effort
Relevant Episodes:
Invisible and Scrutinized
Iran, The News, and Our Clients
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time is a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. from basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buying time.llc.com/systems-checklist
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that deals with All Things therapists and the things that show up in our office and in our continuing conversation around the world events happening in Afghanistan, and our reactions. And as we've continued to do throughout our podcast history of trying to bring in very timely episodes to help our community. We had spoken yesterday with Rob Bates about working with military members. And we are also very fortunate to have one of our very close friends from the show. Sara Stanizai is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and owner of Prospect Therapy talking about working with Afghan Americans and people from the community of people who have personal ties to Afghanistan, whether familial or friends. And helping us to be able to work in the healing process for this community as this very deeply and troubling time for them is coming out. And we're just so thankful for the expertise and the opportunity to have this discussion here. Today's thank you for joining us, Sara.
Sara Stanizai 02:13
Thanks for having me.
Katie Vernoy 02:14
There's some some things to talk about today. And, and so I want to just open this space. And the first question that we ask all of our guests is Who are you? And what are you putting out to the world?
Sara Stanizai 02:26
I'm a lot of things. I'm glad to be here. And I'm glad to have this conversation. It is a very weird time. But you know, a lot of the organizers that I'm in communication with reminded us to take every opportunity and say yes to the interviews and make sure that this issue gets accurate visibility. And we hear from people who are affected by it. Like Curt said, when he introduced me, my name is Sara Stanizai I'm a licensed therapist, and I run a group practice based out of Long Beach, California, we focus on serving the queer and trans community as well as first generation Americans like myself. Over the past almost two years, I have focused more on serving the African American community, my family's from Afghanistan, my sister and I were both born here, born in West LA. But both of my parents were born and raised there and came, you know, in 79, escaping something similar to what's going on now. But I think, you know, it's also true that we haven't really seen anything like this. So what I put out into the world is my goal is to really help people understand and accept all the different parts of their identities. And for myself, my relationship with the Afghan part of my identity has been, you know, a lifelong process. And so I'm really happy that I get to help others on that same journey as well.
Katie Vernoy 04:02
I started watching your video on your website around accepting your identity as an Afghan American and how hard that has been for you. What do you feel comfortable sharing about that now?
Sara Stanizai 04:15
Yeah, it's really interesting. I am comfortable sharing about it, which in itself is testament to how I've kind of integrated that as part of myself. But I work with a lot of African Americans now and we're all at different parts of that process. There are some common themes such as, there's so much mystery around Afghanistan and people didn't know what it was that never heard of it. Many people don't understand Islam in general. And that was hard to. It was hard to kind of be the only one that a lot of people knew. But many times that's actually preferable because then when people did become aware Around 911. And now after this, their understanding and the associations they make with a when it's done are misinformed often or, you know, there's a whole spectrum. But it's we have had to kind of choose between either being invisible or being hyper visible for terrible things that have nothing to do with it. So, you know, I work with immigrants and children of immigrants, people come from all over the world, but the Afghan experience is very specific, because, you know, I refer to us as the displaced among the displaced, because we come from a place that it's almost as soon as our families left it, it almost, it feels very inaccessible. And I do also want to point out the fact that, you know, I was born and raised in the US, I do come from a very westernized culture, people are always surprised, at how, frankly, like, educated I am, and but I have tattoos and but I I like to think I have cute style, but
Katie Vernoy 06:03
you definitely have cute style, let's like, straighten that out right now, you definitely have cute..
Sara Stanizai 06:12
But people are often surprised by that. And it's true, I think, you know, we in the diaspora have very specific experience that is even removed from what's happening in Afghanistan, and I think we owe a lot of respect and deference to the people who do still live there, you know, probably had opportunities to leave and chose not to run away and leave a home that they have known their whole life. Just one example, you know, people are very excited to see, of course, you know, resistant to the Taliban, or, or, you know, people doing things that are very dangerous and risky. But that's not how everyone feels, I don't want to stand because there's been fighting and war for so long that, you know, it's easy for me to go to the protest this weekend. And, you know, that's not lost on me, I want to and I feel proud to and I can't not do that. However, I have an immense amount of privilege doing that, where I think our responsibility in the diaspora is to amplify Afghan voices as much as possible, not just Afghan American, or Afghan Canadian, or any other immigrant voices
Curt Widhalm 07:26
is part of this mystery for many of us in the West, around Afghanistan, that it's a place that for the entirety of my lifetime has been a place of conflict, very confusing, and not, it's a country that's not set up in the same way that many of us here in the West really conceptualize things. And I think it might help our audience a little bit to talk about Afghanistan, even before the US occupation and operations over there. Of a little bit more of what some of these generations of people from Afghanistan, Afghan Americans are facing in this very transformative change, not just here in the last week, but really over the last 40 years.
Sara Stanizai 08:17
Yeah, you're talking about the Afghanistan that my dad and mom would tell me about when we were growing up. that exists, you know, only in their memories, and Afghanistan is not a perfect place. It there was and has always been corruption in the government Find me a government that doesn't have corruption, there is racism and intolerance with among different tribes and communities within Afghanistan there have been lots of imperfect things. But what I remember, what I grew up hearing about was a very I guess I'll use the word modern. I don't know why I need to like point that out. But just a really beautiful society. Both of my parents, you know, my parents met and fell in love at Kabul University. I see pictures of them. My mom also had a really great sense of style. I really think it's an Afghan thing. To make sure we look good. I went to a protest last two weekends ago definitely saw very nice handbags. I was like, Yes, I'm among Afghans like this. We always make sure we look at but you know, my mom would tell me that she was obsessed with Elizabeth Taylor and the Beatles and also Afghan culture and music as well. My dad in many places in the country and actually came here twice. The first time he came as a Fulbright scholar and lived in Seattle. So he did a year of high school in Seattle, actually, with the Vonnegut those running, which is wow, favorite story. And he went back but then when my parents married then they came shortly after that, as well. So a very progressive, open society similar to many other places around the world, really beautiful tons of art and culture, and tons of history. What a lot of what I often tell my clients and the people I work with their concern is, I don't feel Afghan enough. And I don't feel American enough. I don't speak the language. I don't feel connected to my culture. I didn't think that was allowed, and no one really encourages where I grew up. And so we have, we're stuck in this in between place. And what I remind people is that it is never too late. Afghanistan always welcomes us. Our culture always welcomes us. That's a defining characteristic of Afghan culture is hospitality. It's super annoying when you're like, a 12 year old, and everybody's offering you food multiple times. And you're like, Okay, I cannot eat anymore, but it is very rude. I think a lot of children of immigrants have that experience. But hospitality and generosity is a hallmark of Afghan culture. And that also applies to us that our our Motherland, and our culture always welcomes us, no matter how long it takes. So I grew up understanding Afghanistan as a place full of ancient culture, some really good looking jewelry, really strong fighters, and just a very diverse, beautiful place. And that place doesn't seem to exist right now.
Katie Vernoy 11:35
Seems like there has been such a huge transformation of the perception of Afghanistan. And you mentioned September 11. I, we've got a couple of other conversations that are relevant that will we'll link in the show notes that I think provide we have one that's about Iran, and one that's about the MENA culture generally. But I think it's it's something where when you talk about this, and each time you kind of, well, I don't know why I need to say modern or I don't know why I need to say it this way. And it seems like there is a perception. And this is kind of a different take on or what therapists get wrong question, because we asked that for most folks, but it seems like there is this misperception and this deep seated bias that has plagued Afghan Americans, at least since September 11, if not, prior to that. So can you talk a little bit about that?
Sara Stanizai 12:24
Absolutely. That's a really good point. I think there's also a misconception to something that is very intertwined with Afghanistan, which is Islam. You kind of can't, they're not the same thing, but you can't talk about one without the other. And of course, just like any community, there is a spectrum of how devout people are, how conservative people are, what cultures they choose to continue, you know, and that's always people's choice. I think people in the West love to latch on to these sensationalized out of context, images and swoop in with savior savior ism about well, we have to liberate people from their own culture. And I've been thinking about this a lot like, the whole modesty thing about people wearing headscarves or wearing modest clothes. Like, we were all cheering when Billy Eilish was doing it on the cover of whatever magazine and her political statement about wearing baggy clothes when nobody can objectify her body. But when all countries have women do it, it's apparently Oh, poor things. Anyway, that's a side note. that's a that's a blog post in the making. But I think there has been, it's we, unfortunately, we we suffer from this either complete invisibility and mystery, or that's not my concern, or that's over there. Or just this really distilled, stereotypical highlighting of things that may or may not even be part of our culture, some of those things are part of our culture, and there's nothing wrong with them, many of those things are not. And I had a conversation with a client who is really exploring Sufism, and mysticism and other aspects of Islam, which my dad is a scholar and will take any opportunity to teach me slash lecture me about. So I grew up with a very peaceful, merciful beautiful, like nature based version of Islam. That is very, I mean, I just have warm fuzzy feelings about it all the time. And I know my peers did not. So it's for me personally, it's really hard to wrap my head around the idea of Islam as some sort of oppressive scare, you know, God fearing like any sort of, there's a spectrum you can be very conservative about certain things but that has never been part of my experience and not part of a lot of people's experience. And so I think I do feel this obligation to say like, you know, not all Muslims. Because I'm sort of it's either there's no idea of who we are. Or I have to overcompensate for these negative ideas about who we are. And we, politically, culturally, socially, have never been able to define ourselves to other people. Right? As long as I've been alive.
Curt Widhalm 15:32
Normally, during an episode like this, we'd ask some question around what are some cultural considerations that working with a specific population like Afghan Americans would be? And it seems like you're answering that question for us as far as providing a lot of open space and let somebody define what what it is because our ideas might be very much entrenched in kind of what we've seen, and especially for those of us who really only paid attention to Afghanistan from American occupation sort of perspective. I don't know how to answer this without kind of asking the same question anyway. In addition to clients being able to define what their Afghan identity is, are there some cultural considerations that therapists should be aware of when working with people from this community as far as their approach to mental health treatments? and things that therapist can be prepped with?
Sara Stanizai 16:40
Yeah, that's a great question. You're asking me this today. And what's top of mind for me right now is, don't feel sorry for us. Please don't bring pity into the therapy room, we can feel it from a mile away. And it's condescending we'll say, That's number one. There are some things that apply to working with any sort of immigrant community from anywhere, which is definitely educate yourself outside of the therapy room, understand some basic history, vocabulary, you know, political, religious, cultural players, just so that you have a frame of reference at all. But then, yes, it's okay. In therapy, when you're working with anyone, I think, to let your client educate you about their own personal experience, but not about not having them be a representative and educate about the experience of their country or their culture as a whole. And that's a different, that's a pretty specific, it's a nuanced thing to do. Which is, rather than saying, what does that mean? I'll say, what does that mean for you, for example, also understanding the like I said, for example, generosity, and hospitality is a huge part of Afghan culture. So, you know, most of us, you know, grew up, were born and raised here. So it's not a huge cultural shift, but understanding that that might be what they're experiencing at home. Or if you do if you are working with an immigrant, a recent immigrant even to understand the power structure that we talked about the privilege in the therapy room is always there with someone who is very deferential or polite. It's going it's going to take you there's this thing and Afghan culture, you have to always offer three times. And so you might think you're saying, well, I asked them and they seem fine with it, you know, you may have to double check, or triple check, just to make sure that the person is comfortable. If there's something else that they want to tell you. Again, I'll say that, that would more apply to someone who's closer to Afghanistan, but it is something that I see with my family all the time. And again, the the collectivism and the obligation to family, the importance of honor and pride, I wouldn't necessarily say it's as much about, we do love being boozy. We do care about like financial success. And you know, but it's all in service of respect and honor for our family, that there's a lot of pressure to not exclusively, but to have a strong connection to your community through your cousin, your hundreds of cousins that everybody has, or, you know, every Afghan knows every other Afghan basically. So to not shy away from that, like I did for a long part of my life. So those are some things that kind of come to mind when I think about what you would need to know if you were working with an Afghan American point.
Katie Vernoy 19:51
You mentioned kind of doing some research and kind of the Google search as well as you know, kind of informed research. If this is someone's Google Search. If this is the beginning of their Google search, are there things that you think that therapists should know when working with an Afghan American client or topics that they may want to plug into their search engine that we can help them with right now?
Sara Stanizai 20:15
They will definitely want to read more about the impact of intergenerational trauma and military involvement in their home country. They will definitely want to seek out primary sources, basically, so people who are Afghan or Afghan American, there are a lot of, you know, we have many sister cultures, but there is nothing else like being from Afghanistan. Yes, the US has done this in many other countries. But it is, there are many parallels, but it's not the same. So just saying like, Oh, well, I had a Middle Eastern client or I had an Egyptian client, or That's great. That's their experience will be completely different from ours. So just making sure you hear as much as you can from actual Afghans and Afghan Americans, to keep on the lookout for sensationalized headlines and images, and to really understand, to challenge your own biases. You know, I think I'm still learning history as well. I'm by no means an expert on anything other than my own experience. But I think when people do, it doesn't take very much digging to realize, whoa, a lot of the things that I was told or I just assumed to be true, actually have nothing to do with I want to thank Oh, I think it's pretty eye opening for people.
Curt Widhalm 21:37
Oftentimes, there are healing practices or, or ways of healing that people from various cultures embrace that we are woefully not even taught to think about and ask, in our cross cultural practices. Are there any unique things to consider as part of this grieving process, part of this healing process that made me things that we would encourage, if we are working with clients who are Afghan American right now?
Sara Stanizai 22:12
That feels like a pretty tough question to answer? How do we cope with something on this scale? As you were asking me, I was remembering that prayer is pretty healing for a lot of people, not for everybody. Some people are not religious. But I think the ritual and the act of prayer is really healing for people. Being in community spaces. So making sure that, you know, if you're not Afghan as the therapist, you might say, like, of course, I'm here to support you, in my way, but do you have connection? Do you have safe connection to people that do accept you and that you feel comfortable with, and it's not always accessible to people, a lot of people, my you know, when I was growing up, I went to a pretty progressive, friendly mosque. But I was rebellious, I just like, hated it, I just, it was very boring, I never wanted to go. But if I did have that, that would be one of the first places I would go. But that's not the case for everybody. So that's something to ask about. You may or may even affect the time of day that you have your session. If someone is devout, and they're praying five times a day, your session May, you may need to just make sure your session time doesn't interfere with prayer time. And also remembering that for many Muslims, fasting is an act of devotion, and it can be very healing and cleansing for people and it can give a sense of I don't want to say control, it can give a sense of agency and at a time when everything feels out of control.
Katie Vernoy 23:54
What is it... What is it important for those of us who are not African American to make sure that we're checking in on and for us to know about the experience over this past week? And an honestly for much longer than that, but what is it important that we're aware of that maybe we don't know as a non Afghan Americans?
Sara Stanizai 24:20
What I've been thinking several times this week is that there isn't there doesn't seem to be language for what we're experiencing. It is it feels very fundamental and it feels painful on a large on a scale that I can't it's really hard for me to even grasp myself, let alone describe that there's, it's, it's new, it's brand new, it's well, it's not new, but it's very present. It's fresh, and it feels like people are reaching out and saying I didn't know What to say, but I wanted to say something. And those messages are helpful. And it's hard for me to I kind of go back and forth, because people are reaching out and saying, Well, what can I do. And part of me is like, thanks for asking, I am in the midst of a lot of things right now between trying to make sure that my family is safe and alive. And some of them are seeking emergency visas, some of them do not want to leave, I'm, I'm looking at my phone all day making, just waiting for them to have service to. So I can just hear from them to make sure that they are alive. So you may want to do a Google search and just look for fundraisers, look for advocacy efforts, there are scripts laid out for people to contact people in the government to make sure that visas do get approved and that refugee are welcomed. There is that really exciting fundraiser for the rescue missions. And it's got $5 million, or something, which is pretty badass, which is like, it's amazing. I wish I could just like see who that pilot is, which is great. But there are also millions of people who either don't want to, or are not able to leave. And, you know, I said this earlier, I don't think people should. You don't have to be American to deserve aid. You don't need to be a refugee to deserve aid. So I really encourage people to give to the efforts that are on the ground that are staying in front of Stein, who are really handing food and clothes and water and medicine to people who don't have those resources.
Curt Widhalm 26:43
Are there any particular organizations that you would encourage our listeners to look at supporting?
Sara Stanizai 26:49
Yeah, there are so many literacy and love is one organization, although I heard that they recently paused their donations until the banks open, but check with them hand to hand. So DACA group is another organization that has been in Afghanistan, since before this, and their hand to delivering supplies to people. I think there are a lot, Instagram is lit right now. So there are a lot of financial donations that people can make. There are organizations throughout the country, throughout the US that are coordinating airport pickups, and hotel vouchers. And you know, if you have a bag of clothes, you're taking to Goodwill, you know, they're taking everything because people are showing up with nothing. I would also really encourage anybody who has access to legal services, if you are a lawyer, you don't have to be an immigration lawyer, really helping people understand their just the basic visa paperwork will be very, very helpful. People are overwhelmed and a phone call. And a plan will help people a lot. Attending protests and just showing up and being visible is really, really helpful because that leads to media exposure, and then that leads to people deciding that it's worth it, but it looks good for them to say something about when it's done. So we'll take it. There are so many, making sure that you are either letter writing or phone calling or emailing members of Congress to make sure that people are able to come in expanding the process that it's pretty limited about what people are qualifying for right now. Half of my family qualifies, there are some people who may not also anybody who is a Farsi speaker or a pesto speaker. You don't have to be a lawyer, you don't have to know how to do anything. If you can do translating services. All of these are ways that people can help. So I think if you want, you can definitely look, look on my Instagram, but there are a ton of Instagram, Instagram accounts that have been doing this activism for a long time. We're glad that people are paying attention to it. Now. It's a little frustrating that people think this is brand new or that they're suddenly interested, but we'll take it Hey, well, we'll take it. And the other thing I would say is, you know, we're so organized and we're still activated right now. I'm myself personally, I'm even new to this, but it feels like home I mean, it just feels like whenever I see all these other African people I'm like it just it feels like I've always been here. So I would really encourage people like to get involved. You don't have to earn your way in you don't have to qualify you don't have to be like welcomed in like we Afghans love allies and we love welcoming people. So that will be really helpful. Definitely check out a lot of the organizers who were coming together on social media. And if you have any questions you can always just ask
Katie Vernoy 29:58
before we close up because I think this is an important conversation that needs to remain out there. There needs to be support given all those things. But before we close up, are there any... Are there any, any additional points that we need to make? Are there anything? Is there anything else that our modern therapist needs to know?
Sara Stanizai 30:18
No, I don't know. I'm tired.
Curt Widhalm 30:23
Even on that now, when we were first responding to this news, Katie and I, and the balance between wanting to share this message and hating this message, while also knowing that people like Sarah are responding in a time of very, very complex feelings, and not always knowing kind of the best balance that we can bring as hosts of this show. And it's with a tremendous amount of gratitude and respect for Sarah and all of the other people going through a time of existential crisis and just complicated feelings around so many things that we hear you that you're tired. We're, here we're trying whatever it is that we can even in perfectly to help with everything. And for you to show up, and share your story, share what you're going through in order for the rest of us to be able to step in, so that way, hopefully, you can get some rest, and you can get some resolution, and know that our modern therapist community is grateful for you and your time and willing to step up. And that's our call to action for our community here is find what you can do. It might be time, it might be action, it might be money. But there are a lot of people going through some very, very complicated feelings right now. And always, whenever you can step up and do what you can. Yeah, we will include some links in our show notes to the organizations that Sara has suggested. And as well as her practice, which I do want to give you an opportunity to let people know where to find you and your practice.
Sara Stanizai 32:37
Oh my gosh, that's right. I didn't even mention my women's group. Yep. It is the best. It was the best when I started it, it is the best every time I run it. It is more timely and needed now than ever. But we have been meeting. Oh my gosh, this sounds like something I probably don't want to puton the air, like we have been meeting online and secret. These Afghan women, we were toying with the idea of putting together a retreat, and we were like, oh, where can we go do it and somebody was like, they're never gonna let 12 Afghan women on the same flight ever. So we laughed at it. Nobody else laughs when I tell that story, because they're like, I don't know if I'm allowed to laugh about it. But it was. But yeah, we have been meeting in a peer support group, I run a shorter six week version of it. And then I run a three to four month version of it. So we're actually wrapping up one group now. And so when I run it again, when I get my life together and wrap this group up, I'm going to be offering it free of charge. And that's for any Afghan women. You don't have to be in California, you don't have to be in the United States. You just have to be awake at the time that we offer the group. And I'm putting the details together now. But I'm anticipating there'll be a pretty big need. And it's just one of the joys of my life. To run this group, I make sure that I speak to every single group member first to kind of matchmake the right people in the right group. So everybody feels comfortable and safe and is challenged a little bit but not too much. I love running groups, and we get lit like it is everybody is so happy when they sign on to group. First everybody checks if you know their cousin or family members in the group, which I don't think has happened yet. But then everybody realizes how much we have in common how much our stories parallel. They're like, I didn't realize that you could be Afghan and blank like every other thing that we are and it's really really healing and beautiful and now more than ever. It's it's been a gift for myself to be able to kind of give to this to my community. But also for me to heal because nobody else gets it. And so when we, you know, this week when we've been having sessions with my one on one clients as well, it's just been, nobody else gets it. And so it's been very I feel really grateful that this has been put in place that I put these in place by me. I did it, but but I'm really grateful that I have it now.
Katie Vernoy 35:26
So where can people find about the group about your practice? Like, what what, what are the actual contact info there?
Sara Stanizai 35:33
Yes. The best place is our website, which is prospecttherapy.com. That's also my Instagram handle, which is prospect therapy. That's me, I run that account. It's not some company. So if you message me there, I will answer, but you can find all of our information on our website, and information about our group about therapy, about everything that we're offering. Those are the two best places to look.
Katie Vernoy 35:58
And any final thoughts?
Sara Stanizai 36:01
Thanks for having me. It was nice to talk to you two.
Curt Widhalm 36:04
We will include all those links in our show notes at mtsgpodcast com. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Sarah Stanizai.
Katie Vernoy 36:14
Thanks again to our sponsor, buying time buying
Curt Widhalm 36:17
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Katie Vernoy 36:45
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Announcer 37:01
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Understanding the Psychological Impacts of Leaving Afghanistan, Part 1: Military Veterans An interview with Rob Bates, SFC IN USA ret., MA, LMHC, on how veterans may be responding to the US leaving Afghanistan after 20 years at war. Curt and Katie talk with Rob about his service in the military and how it has impacted his view on therapy and being a therapist. He explains how he typically works with veterans, decreasing perfectionism and shifting dehumanization to self-compassion. We also look at the unique experiences of US Veterans who have served in Afghanistan and how therapists can support these individuals more effectively during this time.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Rob Bates, SFC IN USA ret., MA, LMHC, MHP, DCR From Rob: We can all use a little help now and then. I bring a diverse skill set of life and counseling experience. I grew up with a tumultuous household in a small community. I joined the military at a young age and have lived and worked throughout the world. I have had my own family, raising children weathering many successes and failures in the process. I continue to experience counseling as a client working with the emotions of my past and present to improve my future. My personal experience in therapy enhances my great respect for my clients' vulnerability in our sessions. I am a fellow traveler in life, as my clients learn and grow so do I.
As a soldier I spent 20 years living and working throughout the conflict regions of the world as a combat infantryman. Starting as a young Airborne Ranger with the 2nd Battalion of the 75th Regiment and finishing my career as a senior leader in the 2nd Battalion 1rst Infantry Regiment of the 2nd Infantry Division. I have experienced combat in the First Iraq War, Bosnia, Kosovo, Second Iraq War, and Afghanistan. I am proud of my service and my work wherever I have been asked to go by my country.
I have returned to a quiet rural community because I love the pace, the people, and watching the cycle of life in the fields that grow around me. My daily life is filled with my amazing wife, my elderly dog, and villainous kitten in a farmhouse from the 50’s about a mile out of a small town located centrally in Washington. I am close enough to experience the amazing delights of the city; far enough to be separated from the stress and anxiety urban life brings for me. My hobbies include the outdoors, learning, great food, and time with friends. When not working with clients I spend most of my life dreaming of the next great adventure to experience.
In this episode we talk about: * Rob’s experiences in the military and afterwards that led to his becoming a therapist for vets * The different language that therapists speak from military personnel * The unique skill sets, knowledge, concerns that therapists should have or be aware of when working with military members and vets * How military members live in a zero-defect environment and how therapists can consider working with vets to decrease this mindset when returning to civilian life * The bias and judgment that can negatively impact work with folks in the military, especially around life and death decisions * The importance of military clients understanding therapist’s ability to manage secondary traumatization * Typical responses to the decision around the drawdown in Afghanistan after the peace agreement as well as the very recent chaotic evacuation * The moral injury related to walking away from Afghanistan * The relationships that were developed between US military personnel and Afghan military personnel and civilians and how “abandoning” them to the danger of the Taliban is impacting veterans and those who are evacuating * The impact of social media and commentary on perception and meaning-making * The ethical and moral decision-making that is happening at all levels * The process of dehumanization during wartime, creating psychological safety during combat * The complicated grief that is further complicated by the US leaving Afghanistan and the complex trauma and survivor’s guilt * The importance of helping veterans to develop self-compassion * Identity issues that may be challenged with the withdrawal from Afghanistan * A fuller picture of service in Afghanistan (including humanitarian missions) * What may happen when the news cycle shifts to the next big news story * Creating new purpose and meaning to mitigate tendency toward suicidality
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Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Rob Bates’ practice: Bates Counseling Services
Give an Hour
VA Resources
Dave Grossman’s book: On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society
Victor Frankl book: Man's Search for Meaning
Relevant Episodes:
Treating First Responders
Preventing Client Suicide
Negotiating Sliding Scale
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time has a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. from basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buying time.llc.com/systems-checklist
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all of the things that affect therapists what we do the clients that we see. And as we have things that happen in the world, as we do here on the podcast from time to time, we sometimes bring more urgent episodes that we didn't normally have on our content calendar. And today is talking with Rob Bates, retired senior infantry men lmhc in Washington State. And I'm talking about the stuff going on in the world, particularly the changes that have happened in Afghanistan here over the last couple of weeks. And a lot of the military members and veterans from across the world and here in America are very much having some responses to this. I know that I've had some former clients reach out to me who've been in the military who served in Afghanistan themselves, seeing a report from the Department of Veteran Affairs that on Monday, they saw a 9% increase to their veterans crisis hotline as far as outreach to their staff, by veterans. And so helping our audience here and helping us along the way. Thank you, Rob, for joining us sharing some of your background, and helping us to better be able to serve people who have served our country and are now having to react with very drastic shifts. So thank you for joining us. Absolutely. Thank you for having me here.
Katie Vernoy 02:30
So we're really pleased because we were able to talk with you on very short notice. So thank you so much for doing that. But to get us started, we always ask our guests who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Rob Bates 02:44
Yeah, you know, when we talk about that expert in the culture, I you know, I started in the military when I was 18 years old. And and, you know, I joined the military straight out of high school, spent 20 years started in second Ranger battalion and and you know, stayed in the infantry for for the rest of my time and held every position in the infantry company from an ammunition bearer for the machine gun teams to an infantry First Sergeant and the operations NCO for an infantry battalion, my combat experience spans from the first Gulf War through Bosnia, Kosovo, and to Iraq and Afghanistan doing combat deployments. And both, you know, my actual records have 60 months in combat, which, you know, it is what it is sometimes, some days are really intense, and some days are just really boring. In an intense way. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's amazing, some of the things that these kids can think up to keep themselves entertained when when the world gets really boring, but you know, then we take that back, and we look at some of the hardest days in combat, I think about my year in Afghanistan for my last tour, and I think we lost 13 people, just with with K and the casualties and, and the just, people evacuated for every, every reason under the sun were just impossible. You know, and so I went through my own transition as I as I retired and tried to figure out what this next step was, and, and I, I tried to go get some mental health and and, you know, I, I realized really quickly that that as mental health providers, we really speak a different language from from the language I was used to in the military. And what I decided was, I don't have to be the smartest person the world I have lots of great smart therapists, they can surround me, but I speak a language that none of them speak. So I'm able to go in and just have that interpersonal connection with with veterans and have a conversation and help them work through whatever they're, they're struggling with in the moment. And as I have that question, I just reach out to these people that that I know can support me and around me in this tribe of really, really smart people and and and gets a direction and helped me go forward. And, you know, through the process, I've realized that I'm probably just as smart as them, but you know, I started that that that that old thought process that comes through myself as we join the military, you think you are a little bit less than and then then you really push those boundaries. And you figure out how much capability you have, and, and how much capacity you have for real change in real movement and how great of a person you possibly can be. So it's pretty amazing.
Curt Widhalm 05:23
For those of us that have been in the field for a while, we've always kind of heard that working with members of the military, working with veterans does require a unique skill set and knowledge of the process to use that go along with being in the armed services. What should therapists know about the unique concerns that military members do bring to therapy?
Rob Bates 05:48
when we work in therapy, we kind of round off the edges and we make it we make it okay to not be perfect and and to experience failure. Really, a lot of people that have served in the military have lived in a zero defect environment, because when we make mistakes, they have real consequences for other human beings. And, and they're usually the people to our left and our right, that we truly love, and, and, and care about in our own platonic ways. So as we go through that process, understanding that that you're going to talk to somebody that is very rigid, and their idea of right and wrong, and then very rigid in the idea of perfection is where we have to start and helping somebody understand that. Yeah, they're bad days, and things don't always go right. But we always do the best we can that that is the most important thing we need to understand is as we work with veterans,
Katie Vernoy 06:41
We asked this question for a lot of our folks, what do you think therapists can get wrong in working with military members with veterans, that would be pretty harmful to them?
Rob Bates 06:52
You know, I, as a therapist, I chose a very liberal university to really immerse myself in as I made this transition from a very, very rigid, very structured place as a military into being a therapist. So I really wanted to experience something that was, was completely opposite of what I know. And what I found, when I got there was people didn't understand who we are. What I think people need to understand is we really, as military members, we're really good people are trying to do the absolute best we can and sometimes just situations where there is no no good answer, or no right answer. I've sat down with a lot of kids after you know, they've been in firefight and had to make a choice and defend their lives. And, and honestly, if we have retrospect on on these things, there, there probably are about 1000, things I could have done differently. But for that kid in that moment, he really didn't have a choice or didn't see a different way. So being able to, to hold this thing, where we allow people to, again, not be perfect in what they are, I feel like, while we're completely non judgmental, as as a profession, we're also some of the most judgmental people that I know and the way we interact with people, and what we hold for people as they go through this process.
Katie Vernoy 08:15
So I'm hearing you say that there is a sense of judgment around these life and death decisions that that you find that therapists who are not familiar with military personnel are veterans that they could potentially put forward a lot of judgment or bias that would make things a lot worse.
Rob Bates 08:35
Absolutely. I mean, whether or not we realize we're doing it, or whether or not that veteran is realizing what they're doing or not, you know, they judge themselves so much that anything that comes from us just shuts them down. And they don't, they don't want to talk about it anymore. They just want to let it go. And they they're already struggling with this moral injury, of being the perpetrator of that violence against somebody else. It just makes it so difficult. In order to have that conversation in itself, I think about my own journey to recovery and into being a therapist and, and finding somebody that I felt like it was safe to have these conversations with was really difficult. You know, because I had to get over first this thing inside of me that I felt like I may be traumatizing the therapists that I was going to be talking with about some of the stuff that was going on. And you know, it's great as a therapist to now understand that that idea of secondary traumatization. But at that time, I didn't know. So these kids, they don't they don't know that we're already prepared for that. We don't know that that's going to go on, but they're still worried about it.
Curt Widhalm 09:39
Having been in the military as long as you have and I'm sure remaining in contacts not only with clients, we're serving veterans, but also your own personal relationships with other people that I'm sure you've come across in your life. How have some of the therapeutic conversations are the feelings conversations, if it's outside of the therapy room shifted, since the US started drawing down in Afghanistan.
Rob Bates 10:11
You mean, since the we first made the peace agreement, or since Monday when we, when we watch people fall off the planes as they were, they're running in fear for their lives?
Curt Widhalm 10:23
I will say since the peace agreement,
Rob Bates 10:25
okay, yes, because those are really two different issues, you know, because since the peace agreement, people are in two camps, it you know, we all recognize that there's this idea that that drawdown needs to happen, that's a geopolitical issue, that that's not necessarily at our level, for the majority of us, I mean, that that's politicians and whatever they're going to do. But there's also this, this idea that, that we made a promise each and every one of us as we walk out, and we talk to people, and we try to keep them safe, and we do everything we could to keep these these people that we formed relationships with, and we really worked really hard to have that engagement with and, and help them to learn and grow and to create safer communities from the cell. So and, and there's just this feeling that that we're walking away from that promise. And, you know, I recognize that it may be a little naive, but, you know, we're talking in the military, that our word means something. And then when we say something, we follow through with it. And that is what we do. So to have that part, where we're just gonna walk away and let them live their life that that was a, that was hard as well. But then we come forward. And we see how this is actually playing out when we was that the Fourth of July, when we literally just abandon our stations, got on planes, and everyone flew out, think about that, that was that was really kind of shocking, I understand how these operations happen. And I understand the need for secrecy. But that, that was really hard to watch. And it was really hard year about, you know, not only are we just abandoning these people that were fighting beside us the day before, without even telling them, but we're leaving all this additional equipment there that that can be used against us in the future. And that that's really hard to see as as a soldier. And, and that's really hard to hear from from from my, my peers and my friends as they're going through that as well. And then we fast forward to Monday, when we had we saw this complete and total collapse when we saw that the last people Americans being pulled out of out of Afghanistan. And you started, started seeing pictures started seeing direct correlations between the last day in Saigon and the last day in in COBOL. And, and I, one of the biggest memes that's going around with a lot of my friends is is really that that that picture of a ch 47 helicopter, taking people off the roof of the embassy in Saigon in being compared directly to a ch 47 helicopter coming into the the diplomatic compound, it can pull itself where it when you look at the picture, except for the number of people on the roof. They don't look any different than they are. They're spot on exactly the same. So it's it's really difficult to see that you know, so we woke up to those kinds of things going on Monday morning. And I gotta tell you, even for me by by Monday afternoon, I I called and canceled my afternoon clients and just started calling veterans because at home at lunch. Sorry, it's difficult for me to talk about too. It's hard for me at lunch, I'd gone home, I'm listening to NPR and they're there. They're doing an MBA interview at the CENTCOM commander and he's taking responsibility for the military failures. I'm I'm watching the video of the C 17 taken off with with human beings falling off that and that in itself was just difficult. I'm watching my newsfeed on on Facebook and all my friends are are desperately trying to get our friends out of Afghanistan, whether they were interpreters whether they're Afghan commandos are fighting beside us, whether Afghan National Army that we're fighting besides they're desperately trying to get people help now, and there's just nothing we can do. So there's just this hopelessness and helplessness. So for me, personally, I recognized I really wasn't gonna be very effective that afternoon. And I didn't want to contain my own emotions at that point. So I didn't want didn't want to, to have to have Yeah. Didn't want to contain my own emotions in the moment. So I just start. I cancelled my appointments for the afternoon and started calling my friends and making sure they were doing okay so that we can be okay in that moment. But it was a very, very hard day for all of us.
Curt Widhalm 15:00
At the time of this recording, the this is four days after Kabul was taken over. And I know that avoiding media and avoiding social media is almost impossible these days. But is the internet tends to do everyone has an opinion of what should have happened. And it's a very complicated place in the world. It's a very complicated situations happened. How are veterans taking in all of these opinions from people who last week, we're experts on vaccination gradients? And now our geopolitical scientists who have simple fixes for what should have happened?
Rob Bates 15:47
Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Well, veterans as a whole tend to be a very opinionated bunch. And each and everyone has their own opinion. And they all think that they're right. And you know, what, again, there's a lot of really smart people out there, whether they were officer or enlisted, and, and they have some really great ideas, you know, so there probably were some better solutions out there, unfortunately, this is, this is the one we have, and this is the one we need to work through. So avoiding social media is going to be hard, but we can focus on what right or wrong, this is what happened. And that that is something that actually deeply resonates with the military, because, you know, we, we make decisions and, and we follow through with those decisions. And sometimes, sometimes in the end, we find out that wasn't the right decision, and we have to be flexible and ourself, and, and, and, and change direction as, as we go through it. Just like we're seeing with the administration, as, as they're flexible on this idea that, that we were just packing up Americans and putting them on planes and making them leave, or not making them leave, but giving them the opportunity to leave to this idea where we're, we're evacuating as many people as we possibly can, during the time period that we are going to be there. You know, it's pretty amazing to see some of the pictures that are out there, you know, they, I, my biggest hero in this entire thing is the C 17. Aircraft commander that that he had people start running into his plane, down a half lower gate, tailgate of this plane. And instead of forcing them off his aircraft, he packed as many people as he possibly could into his aircraft, probably against orders and and flew to Qatar with them. Because it was it was more empathetic and humanitarian, to just take those people with him than it would have been to force him off the plane in a way that would may not have been ethically or morally okay for anybody.
Katie Vernoy 17:58
Yeah. It seems like the whole situation is so complex. And they're, they're, you know, this, this time around, there is so much polarization, there's so much, you know, like Kurt was saying, like these, these pundants that have never even been in the military have no idea that are making all these statements. And I think there's, there's so much opportunity for people to be swirling around. And I'm just gonna say in this toxic mess of opinion, and a really horrible situation. And it just seems like, there's a lot of things, a lot of issues that would be coming up, you know, there was the sacrifice. That's, that's expected of those who joined the military. But this is a different type of sacrifice that all of a sudden, what does it mean, there's been identity? There's all these games that seem like they've been completely lost. And it just seems to me like there's there's a lot of deep issues that whether they've been swirling around for years or not, would be rising to the surface for our clients who have served in the military, especially those who have served in Afghanistan. How do we support the folks that are facing these things who who served in Afghanistan? Maybe those who are even being evacuated and coming into our offices, like how do we best support them, and trying to even grasp a fraction of what it is that they're experiencing? clinically?
Rob Bates 19:31
I really appreciate that you talk about the people that are being evacuated because those people are running for their lives because of a reason they're they're truly terrified. And, and they have good reason to be terrified that the Taliban are not nice people. What do we what do we say to these people?
Katie Vernoy 19:51
Or even just how do we think of how do we kind of clinically, you know, comprehend what the picture is in front of us, and how do we best serve support them.
Rob Bates 20:02
You know, I go back to this idea of Dave Grossman wrote this amazing book that and it's, it's on killing it. And I think I think Dave gets about 75% of it, right, I think we talked about, we talk about when we, when we have to go into this mindset, we're veterans have to have to make a choice about killing people and go into this place that's really dark and really unaccepted by, by civil society, we go through this, this process of dehumanization of the people that we're actually working with, because it creates psychological safety for us as we go forward. But we also live in the real world where people have value, they're human beings, you know, I, I don't just think about my own soldiers that that that fight beside me, but I think about the the sons and the daughters and the children of the people that we were fighting against, that often got caught in the crossfire. It's not just, it's not just the mothers and sisters and fathers and brothers of the people that didn't come home here. It's the people there too. So you know, it's, it's really a complicated and difficult thing. And you're right, these pundits are gonna say whatever they're gonna say they're getting paid to say it. But as veterans, we're torn between these two things, we have to validate who we are and what we've done. But we also have empathy, and we're going to go into this post traumatic growth, becoming these human beings that can accept what what happened and how it happened. And, and, and grow into better human beings, whatever that looks like.
Curt Widhalm 21:43
I'm not somebody who's served in the military, I don't have a ton of experience working with military members. A lot of this sounds like working with grief, of really being able to move into a place of acceptance and really complicated grief, because of a lot of uncertainty, a lot of ambiguous sort of loss as some of those connections that some of the military members might be having with some of the people in the Afghan army and some of the interpreters and stuff that have been worked with over there who have been left behind and questioning if those people are going to still be alive. How to how can we help our therapists kind of put this into some of the skill sets that they might already have around working with grief that further help some of the veterans and people that might seeking those therapeutic services? At this time, that might help better this for some of those clients?
Rob Bates 22:53
Absolutely. I think this is, I think you're you're spot on Colleen is a complicated grieving process. Because we're grieving. We're grieving the friends that we left behind, we're grieving the efforts that we put into this that that have no well appear to have no value in reality, we're grieving the lives lost. You know, I, whenever I think about something that's like, like this, I always go back to Frankel and, and he, when he talked about the concentration camps in Germany, he said the best the best or not survived, and is difficult it is, as it is to say, I often feel that way about how am I experience in combat where some of some of the best and brightest did not make it home. And it's really hard to deal with that. So you know, as we go through this process of complicated grief and mourning, we act to just really come into this, this idea of, of creating a new purpose and create a new future for ourselves and figuring out how we're going to connect back into this real world. And as we grieve that, as we go through that process of complicated grieving and mourning, mourning, it's is exactly spot on, and how to approach this and how to go through this, you know, it's not just that simple PTSD, it's not this event happen. I'm now phobic to this now I have these reactions to this. It's this trauma informed, just holistic vision that that so many things have happened and it affects so many parts of our lives. And as we encounter these things as we go through the lifespan and we see these things as as, as they are, understanding what they are understanding how they connect to that grief and understanding that we're going to continue to grieve this through the rest of our lives. You know, as as we as we have these new moments where we get to see our children grow or or come into conflict with us or get angry with us. We have to remember that that our friends are never going to have those moments as we go through these successes. As we go through these growths, we got to remember that our friends will will never have that. And we have to be okay for ourselves right here and right now. And we have to continue to move forward. We have to create that new purpose and meaning for ourselves as as we go through this, and we have to continue to grow as human beings. And it's really difficult when you're mourning that much. That's with grief and that much loss.
Katie Vernoy 25:23
When you're talking about this, I think there's the the grief that you're you're mentioning, it also feels like there's big shifts that have had to occur and how someone operates as a human how they see the world. And this process of dehumanizing both self and other seems like it's fundamentally required for psychological safety in combat. And prior to this week, I'm curious how you work with clients to move away from that dehumanization and gain back compassion, humanity connection, seeing the value of people seeing the value of life, like, what's been kind of the strategies you've used in the past, kind of separating it from the current thing, just because I think there's some a baseline of how we help military members and veterans that that may be caught. And I need to know before we can kind of really understand the impact the last weeks had.
Rob Bates 26:25
Yeah, so the the first person, you always have to convince a veteran to have compassion for his himself. So if you can convince them to have compassion for themselves, they can have compassion for everyone. You know, we have the will, in the army, we have the army core values, and one of those values was selfless service. And in selfless service. Only the mission has value not ourselves. So to, to have that so ingrained in our everyday life where it became a core value of the service itself. And to come out into the to a world that doesn't always operate that way. And we see things differently. It's really difficult. So as we work with people, and we help them to have empathy for themselves and recognize that it's okay to not always be perfect, and it's okay to to see things that that that we have no power or control over and be okay with them. Because we just, we have to be I mean, we there's there's nothing we can personally do to solve it as a whole. To create that self compassion for somebody is really the, the the building block for everything else that comes
Katie Vernoy 27:38
when someone regains that self compassion, I just I think about the process, the meaning that's attributed, especially if they are struggling to get past the selfless service to the mission. I would imagine that having a mission feel like it completely imploded, would have a huge impact on folks who aren't very far along in that process of understanding their value beyond that mission.
Rob Bates 28:06
Yeah, yeah. I think about the the Bruce Springsteen, song glory days where he talks about somebody in high school that was a sarpo ball player that's continuing to carry that that through his entire life, and that that's what makes him a person. And we see a lot of this with, with with veterans as they, they find value in themselves from that, that that big collective thing that they were in the past, which was being part of this the service in Afghanistan, and you know, no matter no matter what the narrative is, no matter what the politicians were doing, no matter what our orders were for hire. Each and every one of us was doing the best we could to help people on an everyday basis. We were out there on bad days, we had to shoot at people on most good days, we were doing humanitarian missions, we were helping building schools, we were bringing medic medical care to communities that never had it. We were helping reestablished irrigation canals, we were helping develop communication nodes for people to actually go through. We were helping them reestablish the infrastructure of basic roads, so they could transport each other transport goods to get things that they needed. And, and those were great things those were great missions and and to see those things just go away in a heartbeat, from something we have no power control over is is really difficult. So yeah, it's really hard.
Curt Widhalm 29:33
Oftentimes, when something like this happens, that makes a big wave in the media and a lot of people are call to action and understanding this from a military experience sort of sides. There's a lot of us who are going to be fields to be called to do something right now. predictably, the news cycle is going to change to something else. What is this experience likely to be like for a lot of veterans where I'm sure that a lot of the images that are in the media now are going to be triggering bringing up a lot of feelings, but also looking ahead to when this isn't at the forefront of the media? For those doing continuing support and continuing therapeutic work with veterans? What kinds of transition should therapists be ready to look out for as the story moves into something else?
Rob Bates 30:31
Yeah, well, we've already been watching this, I mean, no matter, no matter what it is, I mean, as we look at the 24 hour news cycle, and how quickly things change, things are only important as long as they're important. Things are only important till they tell somebody wants us to look someplace different. And and they change that. And, you know, that's, that's the, that's the price we pay for corporate controlled media. And, and I recognize that I have a lot of friends that have spent a lot of time talking to me about that. And I understand that at what do we say to veterans as as they're, they're struggling with this. We empathize with them and, and just be as compassionate with them as we possibly can, as they go through that, because this isn't a small struggle for them. This is everything, this is a huge part of their life. You know, not being a veteran, you there's the thing you can't understand where when you roll outside the wire, and you go out to fight that day, you don't know if you're coming home, you don't know what's going to happen, it may be a boring day, where we just laugh at each other for the things that have happened and some of the weird things that were said or done. Or it can be a horrible day where we have to call in, helicopters through to help our buddies out. Or if we we have to bring our friends back. Under sheets, or in a body bag. And it's just it's, it's really difficult to be part of this and to go through this. And, and to see this new cycle shut shuffle as quickly as it does and and to minimize the pain we're going through. It's the same for, for anyone that that that is truly passionate about a subject and sees that subject disappear. We have a we have a structure already in place for this, we just continue to, to hold that one person. And that space, we're we're we're here doing therapy and we continue to, to be there for them and recognize that they're struggling, they're in pain. And we hear it, we witness it. And we're present for it.
Katie Vernoy 32:51
We need to have another conversation about military mental health, I can't think more broadly, because it seems like there is so much more to dig into. But we do need to finish for today. But what I'm really hearing and some of the things that are coming to mind for me is that this past week has been truly horrific for for everyone, but especially for those who have served in the military, even more, especially for those who have served in Afghanistan, and being present understanding that there is deeply complicated grief. And, and there's also a whole process of, you know, identity becoming, you know, kind of re humanisation all of those things that may be hindered in this moment may be impacted in this moment. I just really, you know, we'll we'll link to an episode on suicidality and how to assess for suicidality, that kind of stuff, because I could see that being a huge right now to make sure that we're making those assessments. But But I just I just really want to honor that. This conversation is just beginning. It seems like there is so much here. And thank you so much Rob for for sharing your experience as well as your expertise on supporting these folks.
Rob Bates 34:09
Yeah, and I'm sure it's coming across that, that I'm not just a mental health therapist, but I'm in grief as well as as I go down this process. And I completely agree as as we create new purpose meaning and help people find a way forward. Yes, we're what we're actually avoiding is is that suicidality and that that feeling that everything is lost, and there's no reason to go forward. Because there is there's great reason to go forward. There's great things ahead in our lives, we just have to figure out what those things are.
Curt Widhalm 34:37
Where can people find out more about you and your practice? And if you have any other suggestions as far as if therapists are called to action at this time, any organizations that you might recommend?
Rob Bates 34:52
Yeah, so my practice is here in Washington State and you can find me at batescounselingservices.com. I do mostly telehealth I live in rural Central Washington because it's, it's the place, right? I feel most comfortable and enjoy my life on a daily basis. It's pretty amazing. And, you know, organizations we can reach out to, you know, there's a great one called given hour which which helps veterans find mental health and helps connect us together so that we can find ways to help veterans move forward. And you know, I think given our is a great organization and you know, I've had a couple experiences talking to other therapists there are with given our and for the majority of the people that are connected, that are connected with military service members also have a connection to the military. So that itself is is irreplaceable as we help people go forward. And given our because the last few years is 50 states, so they help you connect with people, wherever you are.
Katie Vernoy 35:51
Yeah, we have an episode where we've mentioned before we have a partnership with them, and and they actually helped us find you, which has been amazing. I also have some resources that were sent to me from the VA that has the other other things that might be helpful for, for veterans and active military. So I will put that in the show notes as well as the Give an Hour link and the link for your practice. Rob, thank you so much.
Rob Bates 36:18
Absolutely. And the VA has a long list of resources to use right now. And that think that's a great opportunity for the VA to help. You know, VA can be really difficult to deal with, administratively as as most bureaucracies are.
Katie Vernoy 36:32
Yep.
Rob Bates 36:33
But just like therapy, if we learn to speak the language, it seems to help and we seem to get better things from the VA, but it's still frustrating.
Katie Vernoy 36:42
So I so that's why Give an Hour's around as to make sure people can find stuff immediately. Right. But we'll we'll put all of those links in the show notes.
Rob Bates 36:50
Yeah, they Thank you so much. I really appreciate that because you know, there there are some great resources out there that we can push people towards.
Curt Widhalm 36:57
You can find our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com And we will include all of those links, as Katie said, and we appreciate everyone in our modern therapist community who may be called to action in serving and providing for our military community or veteran community. And until next time, I'm Kurt Wilhelm with Katie Vernoy. And a special thanks to rob Bates for joining us and sharing everything.
Katie Vernoy 37:27
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Curt Widhalm 37:29
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Katie Vernoy 37:58
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Announcer 38:14
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What the Grief Just Happened? An interview with Sonya Lott, Ph.D, on how COVID has impacted our experience of grief. Curt and Katie talk with Sonya about the types of grief people are experiencing and how people have been coping thus far. We explore what prolonged grief is and the risk factors that contribute to it as well as tips to support clients. We also talk about the need for therapists to be informed on grief processes and the importance of meeting clients where they are.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Sonya Lott, Ph.D, Founder of CEMPSYCH, LLC Sonya Lott has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University. She been licensed as a psychologist in PA since 1991. Since 2020, she has been licensed to provide telepsychology in more than 16 states through the Association of State and Provincial Psychology Board’s (ASPPB) PSYPACT program.
She maintains a private online practice devoted to helping individuals transform their experiences of traumatic and prolonged grief. She is trained in Complicated Grief Therapy (CGT), an evidence-based treatment for prolonged grief and is also a certified brainspotting practitioner.
She is also the founder of CEMPSYCH, LLC, which offers continuing education in multicultural psychology to mental health professionals. CEMPSYCH, LLC is approved as a sponsor by the APA to provide continuing education to psychologists.
In this episode we talk about: * Who Sonya Lott is and what she puts out in the world. * Looking at how COVID has impacted our experience of grief (i.e., death and non-death losses). * How the uncertainty COVID created has added to our difficulty in acknowledging losses in our lives. * Discussion of how clinicians can help their clients (and themselves) recognize and process their grief. * Examining how losses to previous COVID, attachment styles, and other risk factors have influenced the way people manage their grief. * Defining prolonged grief and recognizing when it is a problem, while making cultural considerations. * Factors that have contributed to people developing prolonged grief (e.g., isolation, previous mental health challenges, etc). * What clinicians can expect to see from clients as we move into the next phase of our lives. * The need for clinicians to be able to differentiate from grief, prolonged grief, and major depression and address each accordingly. * Recognizing that the grief people are experiencing is inherently traumatic and integrating this into treatment. * Tips for clinicians to help clients who are stuck. * Being a grief informed therapist (knowing there are no stages to grief). * The importance of meeting people where they at to help them process their grief.
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Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Sonya Lott Website
CEMPSYCH LLC
Relevant Episodes:
Death, Dying, and Grief
Compassion Fatigue
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time,
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time as a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. from basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buyingtimellc.com/system-checklist
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:50
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapists things that we do things that we run into with clients. And one of the things that is largely emerging now that the pandemic, at least at the time of the recordings seems to continue to be opening the world back up fingers crossed that the Delta variant doesn't shut us back down. But one of the things that many people have put off over the last 1820 months or so is a lot of issues facing grief. And this is an issue that one of our therapy, reimagined 2021 speakers, Dr. Sonia Lott is here to talk with us about today, and also at therapy reimagined about helping our clients through this particular process. So thank you for coming back and spending more time with us here on the podcast? Absolutely. I'm really grateful to be here.
Katie Vernoy 01:56
We are so glad to have you back. And I know you've answered this question before, but for new listeners or for updates for people who don't know what you're doing now, who are you and what are you putting out into the world,
Sonya Lott 02:08
I think that I am a unique emanation of a divine source, same divine source that we all are from, and I'm masquerading in a mature full figure Brown, beautiful body.
Katie Vernoy 02:25
I love that that is awesome.
Sonya Lott 02:29
I believe what I'm putting out in the world is a pathway to transformation after loss.
Curt Widhalm 02:36
So let's jump right into this. How has the pandemic impacted the experience of people's grief and loss and I imagine that this deals both with loved ones and the traditional grieving process, but a lot of other areas as well.
Sonya Lott 02:55
While the pandemic has impacted our experience of grief, in that is offered us a significant, a significant amount of death and non death related losses. So that it means that just one this pandemic, this novel virus for the first time in our lifetimes that led to this pandemic, we have the loss of the assumptive world, that if I do a then B happened, it's all an illusion anyway, but in some ways, it does help us get through life. And there is some truth, we have some structure, we know you know, when we have to be at work, when we're at home, that our family members, okay, that, you know, all of those things were in place, and what the pandemic did, particularly with when we needed to physically distance and restrict our activities to try to slow down and spread out the virus. There are a multitude of other losses that came that no matter what I do, I might still get this virus, particularly before there was a vaccine, the loss of economic security, you know, with jobs, the loss of physical well being for many people, the loss of connection, you know, we've learned to connect in ways that we didn't before, like having zoom parties, and all of that trainings and so on. But the lack of physical touch, and being present with one another has been a significant thing for all of us. So they're just a multitude of losses. And that's before even mentioning the number of people who have died as a result of the pandemic and members who have lost two three family member families who've lost two three family members, and really rapid succession. You know, there's just an overload of loss and trauma that we're all dealing with.
Katie Vernoy 04:47
The piece that I heard that just really resonated with me was this idea of kind of the loss of the presumptive or assumptive word I'll remember which word you use, but the the uncertainty that became came so pervasive during the, during the pandemic was really what I felt the most I felt like there was. So much of the conversations that I had with clients, the conversations I had with friends and family was about not feeling able to plan anything not feeling secure, that physically like I'm going to survive, my family members are going to be safe. To me that uncertainty, it feels like that would be very, like the cloud over the top that all of us were facing, in addition to these practical losses of graduations, or conferences, or, or weddings, or trips, or individuals that you know, and death that we experienced. Tell me talk a little bit more maybe about this uncertainty in the feeling of loss there.
Sonya Lott 05:57
Yeah, even for those of us who have been fortunate enough to have not experienced the death of a close loved one, we've kept our jobs, we've just had to adapt, you know, all of those things that we haven't really suffered significant financial shifts, there is like that cloud of the uncertainty, you know, in the Doom, and the weight of that has been significant. And another thing with that is that those of us who have been fortunate or lucky, really in that way, because it really is luck of the draw, some of us have had difficulty acknowledging our losses, the loss of the assumptive world or the sense of control, because we don't feel like we have anything to grieve, people are dying over here. And we're sitting here whining about I don't know, you know, what's going to happen next week. So we've been in sitting in our privilege, we've not been able to give ourselves permission to lean into whatever our loss or losses have been
Curt Widhalm 06:57
In helping people work through that. That, I don't know, there just seems to be so many mixed messages of society. On one hand, there's a lot of Well, you didn't lose anyone. And you're coming in here and saying, No, let's lean into that. Let's talk about what you you've lost. How do you help people and by extension, help our audience help people deal with even just that conflictual sort of messaging that many of our clients are facing?
Sonya Lott 07:28
First, we have to name it, you know, and work on helping people to have permission to then lead into the grave. But you know, anytime you lose anything of value to us, whatever it might be, you know, there's a grief process that we really need to honor before we can move on. You know, so I've I have found that naming those losses, and helping people to understand that they, they deserve to be able to have some grief around it certainly not, as you know, to the same degree as if someone, if you're dealing with the death related grief process, you wouldn't expect that it would be that disruptive in one's day to day functioning, but really just given permission and naming it, you know, some people didn't don't even realize that it's loss, what they are experiencing, to know that there's a grief process, if you will. Does that make sense?
Curt Widhalm 08:21
It does, it's almost kind of the dealing with kind of lost that I'm almost looking at this from kind of an attachment perspective of the last towards independence that either people feel supported towards earlier in their lives, or that they get thrust upon them, that makes people kind of come back and deal with those same kinds of developments that they were either prepared for early in their life or not. And actually having to be having to get to a place of being able to recognize it's as you're saying, name it and then be able to deal with the feelings in response to that.
Sonya Lott 09:03
Yeah, it's, it's not always easy to do that. But I think it really is important too. And, you know, part of the problem has been also is that to some degree, we're all in in dealing with loss. And so the support that we would normally have, we haven't necessarily had, or certainly not in the same way.
Katie Vernoy 09:26
When I think about all of the people in my life, many of them are therapists. And then there's also family and friend, that friends who are not and so many of the people in my life, were taking care of so many people, and they're there the weight became heavier and heavier. And there was even therapists I think, you know, I, I've said this publicly, I took on extra clients. And so there was, you know, my capacity to take care of myself to take care of my clients that was I maxed out and so I think there have been a lot of times and I think people are shifting now. But there have been a lot of times that there just wasn't that support and the support that was there was also overtaxed. Right.
Sonya Lott 10:12
And also saying that you maxed out I zoned out just a minute ago and responding also to what Kurt asked around the primary site.
Curt Widhalm 10:20
I have that effect on people. You're my favorite. But I love you.
Sonya Lott 10:32
They set me up for that. But you know, yeah, previous loss also makes us more vulnerable to loss, particularly death related loss. But yeah, it's an accumulation of all these losses that are happening at this time. And if we've had a history of that previously, it serves as a trigger, and it can be even more intense, and trying to take it all in name it, you know, and have permission to try to honor you know, the the loss, the grief around that.
Curt Widhalm 11:02
So if this previous loss is one of the factors that leads people to this greater risk, what are some of these other risks that make people more vulnerable to going through this right now?
Sonya Lott 11:15
I think it makes more sense to talk about the as it relates to prolonged grief. okay to talk about the risk factors, because, well, I'll talk about in terms of risk factors that make us more likely to get stuck somewhere in our grief process, as it relates to dealing with the grief associated with the
Curt Widhalm 11:34
death of a loved one, let's talk prolonged grief, then, what is prolonged grief? Let's Let's start at the basics and build from there. So that way, you can circle back to how this fits with kind of these additive factors that people face.
Sonya Lott 11:50
So prolonged grief is a type of grief experience that last for longer than 12 months, okay? It's been at least 12 months. And it's important when we talk about to recognize a grief in response to the death of a loved one. It's more than just the outward expression, maybe, you know, tears, but it's also grief is really all consuming its physical, spiritual, emotional and cognitive. There's certain ways of thinking, you know, survivor's guilt feeling like if I had done this, and maybe that wouldn't have happened, we might feel more fatigued have headaches, weight gain weight loss, question a god if we believe there is one. So grief is like all encompassing. It's more than just whether or not we're crying or really missing the person, but prolonged and we never stop missing the person, I want to be clear about that. We just learned how to allow the grief that grief to come up, or that expression of it and to move through it. But when a person is significantly impaired in their ability to based on they're missing, they're yearning for the person based on maybe, except excessive avoidance of going places where the pert they used to go at the person or going to the person's belongings, if there is a lot of guilt or counterfactual thinking that we talk about it as where a person is like, I should have been able to make them to go to the doctor. Or if there's guilt. In this case, if you were asymptomatic, you had COVID, you're asymptomatic, and a family member got it. And as a result, they died. So it's at least 12 months after that, where these ways of thinking and feeling are still very significant are prominent to the extent that they're interfering with your ability to function. You know, in personal relationships, you might be more isolated may have difficulty working, if you're able really to work at all. So it's some we're getting derailed in the process of and I say this very tentatively normal grief, if you will, the process of normal grief.
Katie Vernoy 13:57
I was thinking about the cultural differences between grief and the grieving process. How can a therapist identify if this is a normal in air quotes normal grief process and kind of how that looks for different people based on the different identities and the different cultural background that they have? versus this more prolonged grief that seems to be creating impairment? How do we know when it's a problem, I guess is what I'm saying?
Sonya Lott 14:26
Well, it's the standard way it how much it interferes with their ability to function day to day interpersonal relationships and work. In some cultures like Jewish cultures this way, there are a lot of beautiful rituals in the first year that to to allow people to mourn together to say prayers for their loved ones that help people to move through their grief in a way so that it's less painful. And so in those ways, those rituals were the Oh awareness and the acknowledgement of grief goes on for some time, actually help people to adapt to reintegrate into living more fully without their loved one. So those types of rituals or cultural norms around grief are not interfering with their ability to function, it's helping them to function well. So that's the Yeah, that's the first marker in terms of whether or not you know, it's it's prolonged grief. But you know, there's a caveat there if people are and it's not so much cultural, but individual, if they are like engaging, this is one thing they happen, sometimes they're going to see medium after meeting after meeting after meeting him spending significant amounts of money to continue to get messages from the loved one, that they may find that comforting, but that's problematic, because that interferes with their ability to accept that the person, their relationship with the person has shifted, because they're no longer in a body temple, if that makes sense. Or we sometimes see where parents are more likely to do this, where if they have a young child who's died, they leave their room exactly as it was, when the child was last there, the same shoes that were on the side of the bed, the same jacket that was on the door, might be there five years later. And they're comforted by that. But that's problematic
Curt Widhalm 16:22
with some of these rituals, and especially during the pandemic, without some of those rituals that many people are accustomed to in the normal grieving process, for example, being able to attend funeral services, that are we seeing an increase in these kinds of reactions from people in this grieving process, because they're not able to go through those assumptive grief sort of rituals that fit whatever culture people may be coming from.
Sonya Lott 16:52
Absolutely. That's really, really true. One of the ways that we're able to move through grief is to have people around us, people who can surround us and grieve with us, we don't grieve, and we don't grieve well in isolation. And so that's had a huge impact on our ability to grieve. I recently participated in an article in The Washington Post last December, about how people, I'm David Montgomery was a reporter, but it's about how people were finding their own ways to grieve, despite the limitations around, you know, gathering together in the ways that we traditionally do, we really need each other when we're in Great. So that's one of the things that has increased the likelihood of getting into prolonged grief disorder is not having the ability to commune with other people from the beginning of the loss, because of the need to physically distance and also because so many other people over have been overwhelmed with their own losses, like Katie, as you were saying, just maxing out and not really being available. So that's really, we can talk about that as a risk factor that increases the likelihood of prolonged grief. Another thing is, you know, people are more likely to acquire prolonged grades, if they've had a history of loss if they had, you know, some of these other non death losses, so that they're really feeling overwhelmed that they can't really, they don't have the space to really deal with the overwhelming nature of the death of a loved one.
Katie Vernoy 18:22
So we're looking at isolation, a loss of many things. Yeah, whether it's the this the small day to day things a certainty. And all of these things are making it more likely that folks are experiencing these prolonged grief reactions. Are there other risk factors that we should be aware of that folks maybe are starting to move out of now that we can kind of spotlight
Sonya Lott 18:50
if people have a history of have had a history of depression, they would be more vulnerable to prolonged grief. And because of the pandemic and all the losses, people are more likely to be in depression as a result of that even before or at the same time that someone dies. So that's another factor. People who have a loved one who die unexpectedly and most people with COVID die unexpectedly In fact, they acquire it first. And you know, die unexpectedly, is another risk factor. One other really huge risk factor for prolonged grief as a result of the pandemic is not being able to be with our loved ones are not having been able to be with their loved ones, when they die having to say our last goodbyes over FaceTime or you know, zoom. And like we're not always able to be with our loved ones when they die. But when we're denied that opportunity, when perhaps we could app, it becomes more complicated, if you will, because it's more likely the person is more likely to think, you know, if I could have been with him, the maybe I might have noticed something and been able to let the nurses No, or I wonder if they were afraid, you know, if they died alone and, you know, not having had the chance to say what we wanted to say, is a significant risk factor for prolonged grief. And that's pretty much been the standard protocol for safety reasons. But still, it's a major part of being able to adapt to that loss is to know that we did whatever we quote could do. And being denied that opportunity, it's really significant.
Curt Widhalm 20:31
How are we likely to see this continue to evolve and our clients have pandemic related grief as people are being able to kind of return back to families is, you know, health restrictions, skip minimized. This isn't the end of the grieving process, I'm assuming it's just like snap snapping back. So what can we expect from clients as we continue to move into the next phase of our lives?
Sonya Lott 21:00
Well, in terms of prolonged grief, again, because it's at least 12, we I'm sorry, 12 months, since the death of the loved one, we're just beginning to see that, that's just beginning to show up now. And so we're gonna see more of that. But um, the other thing as it relates to coming back to, quote, normal, which we're never going to, it's never going to be the same. A lot of people are experiencing a lot of grief coming back into, you know, the, quote, real world. There's an awareness now of what really what they lost as they're coming back to what's left of it, if that makes sense that a lot of people who are being vaccinated are now experiencing grief around it, the vaccine had been available, even months before my loved one may have still may have lived may have never gotten COVID. You know, so there's loss that's associated with coming back to the, quote, real world. And for some people seeing that it's never the same, you know. So there's the grief around the reemergence, you know, and some people are feeling like, you know, I didn't mind being so isolated, I didn't mind not having to have an excuse for why I don't want to go to this particular conference, or this family gathering or this work related retreat, whatever it might be, we're still going to see loss, that it's sort of like the thoughts are coming back to the living really more fully seeing what was lost, even though if we still have some of it, people are needing help to rise from the ashes, so to speak, and to shift from what they've lost to what's now still available to them. As it relates to grief, it's going to be really important for clinicians to be it's always important, but especially now, to be able to sort out what prolonged grief disorder is, which is a type of depressive disorder, from major depression. And because it because of the conditions of the pandemic, they're coexisting more frequently now, or at least we're expecting it to. And so both need to be addressed or treated, if you will, but they're very different ways that they need to be managed. So it's really important for therapists that we do our work and learn more about what grief really is, as well as what it isn't, and really be able to work with our clients now who are not in prolonged grief, but grief for whatever their situations are, you know, the death of a loved one or non death loss is to help to try to prevent the prolonged grief to help them to deal with the things that we call derailleurs, for example, that once you experience, particularly the death of a loved one, knowing that people the ways that people can get derailed from the movement movement through the adaptation process to loss, they can get derailed by the brief, you know, I could I wish I could have done more. Especially, you know, with the pandemic, if not being able to visit with people if they had COVID and pass it on. There is often a sense of, you know, the isolation people couldn't be together to grieve, that's something that could derail the movement through the grief process. So we need to be aware of all those things so that when we're working with people in the beginning, there might be question of faith, all those things in the beginning of the grief process, or when they first come to us to decrease the likelihood that they move into what we call prolonged grief disorder.
Katie Vernoy 24:37
I'm, I'm also hearing and this is the lens that I put on a lot of things but I'm also hearing things that are potentially very traumatic, especially with what society faced with a global pandemic, but also what individuals might have faced with their own loss of a loved one or if they had other losses that felt very sudden or were very traumatic to them. Do you have ideas around sorting that through? Because I think there's depression, there's prolonged grief, and there's trauma. And I think that all of those things may need to be addressed in different ways. And how important is at for us to tease those things out? What are your thoughts on on that additional element?
Sonya Lott 25:25
Well, you know, I think that the trauma is sort of inherent in all of the types of losses that people have experienced during the pandemic, because they've been sudden, unexpected, you know, it's very significant. And so it's sort of given that it's traumatic, I think it's a safe assumption to say there's some trauma in that loss during the pandemic, even if it's the people again, who didn't lose, you know, economic security or experience the death of a loved one. So I think that, you know, we need to deal with that also. And it's important to separate out all of the layers, but it's more, it's it's more difficult to separate out the different types of depressive poke disorders, where the trauma, it's, it's more clear that it's separate from, but integrated into a part of the full clinical picture. So there's your assumption that you're going to you're dealing with trauma, you know, from the start. And then from there to matter if it's, quote, normal grief, whatever it is, if it's acute grief, I would say that rather than normal, if there's also depression, and if there is prolonged grief, or likelihood of a greater risk for prolonged grief. Does that answer?
Katie Vernoy 26:47
I think so. Yeah, I think there's just been so much that people have been facing, I'm even thinking about losses that were not pandemic related, but impacted by the pandemic. I mean, I think there's just so much, we're really being able to understand your clients experience, what resources they actually had, you know, for some folks, it was kind of just this last year. So even coming out into the world, it seems like there are new things that they would be facing, and, and truly understanding in a different way, because there was the Run, run, run, take care of yourself, take care of your kids do everything that you need to do. And then when things kind of go back to normal, again, air quotes, I think that there's a lot that we're experiencing and understanding differently. And there's time to start experiencing grief and understanding trauma and potentially slowing down enough to actually discern depression.
Sonya Lott 27:40
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, when we're in the traumatic experience, which was this has been this past year, there's often you there's not like you said, the space to even take it in, you're just trying to survive emotionally, you know, and sometimes in other ways. And so it's again, this thought, now people are really having the space to sit with as we're trying to reintegrate into more full living. Yeah. And so I also want to say that, as we're talking about, quote, our clients, we're talking about ourselves through, we really need to have the support to be able to manage all the losses we've experienced, to be able to show up for our clients in the way that they need us to be fully present. So it's a lot
Curt Widhalm 28:24
for those clients that are stuck. Yeah, any tips on getting them into talking about this and naming this that can help our listeners create some healing?
Sonya Lott 28:38
I think what's really important is reaching out, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a therapist. It can be a support group, what a but what I think is most important is that people need to know they need to find people who really understand what grief is. And I always come back to this point in podcast interviews around grief or print interviews around the still the myth that there are five stages to grief. Okay. And it is a myth, the revere to live, Elisabeth Kubler Ross proposed it, researchers long shown that not only is it not true stages don't exist. It's really very harmful to believe that. But there are a number of people who are very actively promoting that, and many therapists who believe that's true. So I think it's really important for people to know that that isn't true, and to find places and spaces in which they can understand what grief really is that it's probably what they're experiencing. It's not in stages, doesn't matter. It's not that it's not linear, there are no stages, their phases of grief and grief is like really messy, and it's really very comprehensive physically, again, spiritually, emotionally and cognitively. So we need to understand what grief so we can first understand what we're experiencing to see what we need the support that we need. And sometimes it's just been in relationship with other people, a support group, for example, a colleague group or seeing a therapist, but again, a therapist to really understands what grief is as well as what it is not.
Katie Vernoy 30:21
Does that make sense? It does. It doesn't we have a couple of different interviews with some other grief specialists that will link to in the show notes that talk in more depth around how the stages don't exist. That's so awesome. That's so awesome. Because I think it's it's so important. And I I feel like just to kind of kind of our last question before we have to wrap up. And we could talk all day with you, Sonia. But I think I'm a therapist, I'm not a therapist, but I'm an informed therapist, I know that there's no stages, and I have a client that I feel like is getting stuck and not fully expressing their grief, what is something that I can do in my next session with them to help them open up a little bit and have some of that experience so they can start moving through,
Sonya Lott 31:09
I would say be right where they are. One of the myths that was most challenging for me to let go of is that it's really important, you really have to grieve, you really have to do this. And sometimes delay grief is not denied grief, it's delayed because it needs to be or, you know, there's no space or may and may not yet be the safety around not necessarily their relationship with you, but within themselves and the life experiences that they've had about the vulnerability that comes with really leaning into your grief. I mean, we're like broken, we're busted wide open, you know. And so if that person isn't expressing the ways that you're expecting or that we typically think about at least the emotional component of grief, be right where they are, because you know that there's so much power and healing in the relationship itself. So be right there with them. And allow them that space.
Curt Widhalm 32:12
Where can people find out more about you and all the wonderful things that you offer?
Sonya Lott 32:19
They can find out about me at Dr. Sonia lat Dr. S o n y ey l Ott comm that's the easiest place to find me as it relates to my work with grief therapy.
Curt Widhalm 32:35
And we will put that in very large font with a link in our show notes. Yes. podcast.com. You can also find Dr. Sonya adds the therapy reimagined 2021 conference. Yeah, so that'll be September 23 24th 25th, both in Los Angeles and online, wherever you may be, and check out the conference at therapy reimagined conference calm.
Sonya Lott 33:07
I want to just add one more thing that I forgot to add that in this process, I just want to say to everybody that it's so important to practice self compassion, to allow yourself to be where you are to know that you're worthy of whatever grief you're experiencing, even if you weren't impacted in the ways that everybody else has been. And just, if we're trying to help other people, therapists are not, let's just try to be right where people are. That's what they need the most. Thank you. Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 33:40
Until next time, I'm currently at home with Katie Vernoy and Dr. zonula.
Katie Vernoy 33:44
Thanks again to our sponsor, Buying Time
Curt Widhalm 33:46
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Katie Vernoy 34:15
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Announcer 34:31
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Asian American Mental Health An interview with Linda Yoon, LCSW, on specific mental health needs of Asian American clients. Curt and Katie talk with Linda about what therapists often get wrong when working with Asian clients and colleagues. We explore the model minority myth, fetishization of Asian women, and the complexity of the heterogeneous group that falls under the term “Asian American.” We also talk about steps therapists can take to better support Asian American people.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Linda Yoon, LCSW, Founder and Co-Director of Yellow Chair Collective Linda is the founder and the co-director of Yellow Chair Collective, a multicultural psychotherapy group with a special focus on Asian mental health. Linda has over 10 years of experience in the field of social work and mental health. Before starting Yellow Chair Collective, she worked in residential and outpatient mental health clinics, domestic and intimate relationship violence programs, and affordable and inclusive housing services, often serving Asian and Asian Pacific Islanders and the immigrant/refugee population.
Linda is passionate about community outreach and provides workshops on social and mental health topics including diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI), cultural sensitivity, parenting, self and community care, family violence, refugee/immigrant issues, and Asian American mental health. Her work has been featured in the LA Times, KXN, CBS Radio, KPBS, Al Dia Politics, and Crushing the Myth. Linda also has been a panelist for KQED Forum, NPR Podcast, and USC Center for Health Journalism speaking about Asian Mental Health needs during the pandemic and anti-Asian hate crime surge. Linda is also an active committee member of NASW-CA Asian Pacific Islander Council - Southern California.
In this episode we talk about: * Why Asian American Mental Health is so important * What therapists are getting wrong when working with Asian clients and colleagues * The Model Minority myth, bias and stereotypes * The lack of understanding of who Asian Americans are (and the heterogeneity of this group – there’s over 20 Asian countries with different languages and characteristics) * Self-gaslighting, dismissal of Asian American racism experiences * Accurate assessment and important questions to ask * Looking at different immigration stories, languages spoken, what culture they relate to if their families come from more than one culture * The barriers Asian Americans face in seeking mental health treatment * The different perspective on mental health and the understanding of body and mind * Collectivism and the impact on an individual seeking mental health services * How different generations may perceive mental health treatment * Culturally and linguistically appropriate services * The potential missing data due to Asian Americans not reporting to or trusting the census * The current spotlight on Asian hate and racism, and the history of violence against Asian people * Common microaggressions * The importance of educating oneself and avoiding assumptions, the value of consultation * Ways to help with antiracism relevant to Asian Americans * Questions to ask yourself to support Asian clients and colleagues
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Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
yellowchaircollective.com
Yellow Chair Collective on Instagram
The Inadequacy of “Asian American” as a term (article)
Relevant Episodes:
Let’s Talk About Race Again
Therapy for Intercountry Transracial Adoptees
Dr. Joy Cox: How to Stay in Your Lane to Support Diversity and Inclusion
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time,
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time is a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. from basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklist, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at Buying Timellc.com/system-checklist
Announcer 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information. You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:49
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about therapists about things the therapist should know and one of the topics that I think often gets overlooked in any discussion about cross cultural representation, diversity awareness and, and is something that admittedly, we here at Modern Therapist Survival Guide have done probably the bare minimum about in our four years of podcasting. Here we've had one episode about working with Asian American clients. And today we're joined by Linda Yoon, a licensed clinical social worker, and founder and all sorts of cool things over at the yellow chair collective talking to us today about things going on with the Asian American community and things that therapists should know and working with Asian American clients, especially with huge spikes in anti-Asian hate crimes and anti-Asian microaggressions. and everything in between, especially here over the last couple of years, with the corona virus pandemic going on. So thank you very much for spending some time with us today and helping us in our audience. better serve the world.
Linda Yoon 02:12
Hi, thank you. Thank you, Curt and Katie, for inviting me to speak on this topic.
Katie Vernoy 02:17
We are so excited to have you here. You and I have had a conversation and I just really respect and I'm very excited about the work that you're doing. The first question that we ask all of our guests is Who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Linda Yoon 02:31
As Curt introduce, my name is Linda Yoon, I'm a licensed clinical social worker in California have over 10 years of experience in mental health, social services, advocacy, mainly working with a lot of immigrants and refugee population, we're often Asian Americans. I'm also the founder and co director of Yellow Chair Collective, which is a multicultural psychotherapy group, we have a special focus on Asian mental health at this time. To answer your second question. I'm actually not sure what I'm putting out into the world currently, I'll have to see, you know, maybe in 20 years and reflect on what I have done. But however, today for this podcast, my intention is to put out inclusion and awareness of Asian American issues and mental health. And that is a goal for me today.
Curt Widhalm 03:23
One of the questions we like to ask towards the beginning of our episodes here is there's a lot of mistakes that people can make in any variety of ways. And if we can help our audience not make those same kinds of mistakes, that's one of the great services that we can offer. From your perspective, what are therapists getting wrong in working with Asian clients or interacting with Asian colleagues?
Linda Yoon 03:48
Yeah, first, I do want to share a little bit update on why this is important. Especially for therapists in America. Actually, Asians are the fastest growing population in the United States between 2020 18 Asian population grew 81%, which is even more than Hispanic population who are 70% growth. And yeah, Asian population is expected to grow past 35 million by 2060. But because Asian Americans are actually least likely group to understand and be poor their senses. So the number could be actually even more higher. And now to answer the what therapists may be getting wrong, or working with Asian clients or Asian colleagues, I mean, there are obviously, you know, biases and stereotypes that therapists of non Asian descent may have about Asian people, right? model minority myth, I'm sure you've heard about it before is a huge issue of this biases and stereotypes, whether they are good or not. model minority myth will often say Asians are smart, they are hard workers. They do not cause trouble. They do all, you know, economic sense. And it creates a lot of this homogeneous and model, that thick idea of Asian Americans are, when there's tremendous diversity within Asian American community, Asia actually has over 20 countries, East Asia, Southeast Asia, South Asia, Indian subcontinent, each with unique history, you know their languages and characteristics. And then we just get often forgotten in the media in the US. Also, maybe what I want to point out is maybe not misunderstanding or getting it wrong, but maybe the lack of understanding of who Asian Americans are, especially the community of therapists, because there's not much education, or knowledge around multicultural issues. And, you know, especially within Asian communities, so we got to be seeing more and more people with multicultural issues in our within our clients, just in society, you know, we will have a cultural cross cultural couples, families and identity issues. And there isn't really a lot of education around that. And I can give an example, perhaps in the context of Asian verti cross cultural issue that can happen, that therapists may miss. If you're a non Asian therapist, oh, no, white therapists, you know, let's say you have an Asian couple coming in. And let's say they're both East Asians. Yeah. So assumptions may be like, you know, they share a similar background, you know, and there wouldn't be necessarily assessment around, you know, what languages do they speak? What languages do they grew up with? or different cultural backgrounds, you know, what's their immigration story of their families, there may be, they're all bringing in to therapy room in their relationship, right. So I have a good friend named Susan. She's also my co director, at yellow chair collected, she has a partner, Jimmy and Jimmy and Susan are both East Asians. Now, if they go to couples therapy, because they're both East Asians, it's so easy to assume that they share similar culture, right? However, Susan is Korean 1.5 generation Korean. And Jimmy is second generation Chinese who actually also grew up with four different Chinese dialect languages. And that that created a lot of like, communication and language issues, as he grew up, that might have affected him, you know, attachment or communication style, that maybe some keys to their relationship and their relationship issues perhaps. And without education around it, we will miss it. You know, without knowledge, we don't know what to look for how to assess, and how they affect.
Katie Vernoy 07:44
So what I'm hearing is that there is such a huge diversity within this monolithic term, Asian American especially. And I read recently that it that even the term Asian American was about trying to bring together political power. And maybe that isn't quite a term that that's helpful anymore, because it does create such a monolithic perspective. And I'll link to the article in the show notes. But it's something where I'm hearing that there's a lot more questions maybe that should be asked when you're working with clients that fall under this huge umbrella so that you can actually get to some of these things. What are some of the questions that you would recommend when you're when you're setting with potentially any client of any culture but but specifically that are being left out in these conversations with Asian American clients?
Linda Yoon 08:33
I do want to note that historically, Asian American term was coined to bring Asian Americans together because before the term do us, a lot of people actually refer to their ethnic heritage. You know, I'm Japanese American, Filipino American, or if there were, it was called Orientals, which has racist connotation to it. During the time that word was coined, there were a lot of different movements like anti war movement, Black Power movement, and Asians voices were getting lost. And then there was intention to bring people together. In my opinion, there is not the best way, there are similar experiences Asian American full share, I think the term is helpful. I think what I want to point out is not forgetting that there is a lot of diversity and how they may play so kind of like you know, this band diagram share like being Asian and American, or Japanese or Korean, even though they're very close together in East Asia, they do have a difference. They speak different languages. They have different culture and South Asian and Southeast Asians who are often kind of forgotten. A lot of people think of East Asians when we say Asian Americans know that they are also included in this term. So I think it's just really about education, being mindful to be culturally sensitive, by gaining those knowledge right? I'd also released listening to people, you're individualizing as well,
Curt Widhalm 10:05
Can you give us a little bit of a deeper dive into the model minority myth? I think many of us have heard it in one capacity or another. And I think it probably just gets shortened down into kind of like that. Oh, yeah, model minority. But there's apparently a lot more to this.
Linda Yoon 10:22
Yeah. So a lot of history context is, in this term model, minority myth. A lot of people don't know about it, why it was created, why it was pushed, why is there we have to kind of go back to World War Two, actually, when Japanese internment camps happen, and they came out and they're given, you know, just a little government, a compensation or a to rebuild their life. And a lot of Japanese Americans worked hard and really rebuild their lives. Around 1960s when there was rising of civil rights, right, black Americans civil rights movement, why society media really started create this propaganda of, Oh, look, look at this Japanese Americans, they're thriving out of ashes, you know, look at them, they were, everything was taken away. And they got a little aid that black Americans also got. And they made a very successful businesses and successful people. And they will cherry pick this people write the success stories, right? To create this opposing view, to discourage and diminish the effort of civil rights movement, in 1960s. So much of America, including other people color, I say, really took this narrative, even Asian Americans themselves out of survival, right? So they want to survive. And to survive, it's just really embracing this model minority destined to have some advantage and privilege and position themselves more like, you know, quote, unquote, white, right? However, this really created this opposing there between a lot of people color, and make Asians really invisible, that Asians are not, sometimes we're like, oh, they're not people color, or they're just honorary whites, right. And they really made it difficult and harder. And that's that model, minority myth was created, not to maintain the systematic racism for all races. And the narrative was created as if the racism was just binary in a black and white. And then systemic racism doesn't exist, and they're different THERE IS THAT COUNTLESS model minority myth to put the blacks at the bottom, white Americans at the top and Asian Americans like somewhere in our chart, but not white. Not Wow. Yeah. So that really asked to how Asian American experience has been dismissed. And that was not taken seriously for a long time. And that led a lot of self gaslighting dismissing of their personal rates and experiences, because like, Asian Americans, especially East and South Asians, who really embraced this model, minor e myth, live up to pressure to this myth,
Katie Vernoy 13:09
What are the questions that you would ask a new client coming in to make sure that you understand the different elements of their story and the uniqueness of their experience?
Linda Yoon 13:18
I mean, there is definitely standard intake a lot of people use as a therapist, and I would like to always ask, you know, their cultural background or ethnicity and kind of go beyond that, you know, immigration story, their immigration stories, you know, do they identify themselves in the culture, cultural biracial cultures that I have seen in my clients, sometimes, they might look in a past more like one ethnicity more, but they actually family or relate to more to another culture they grew up in. So kinda like that aspect, you know, just not have assumption. Now biases asking, and how was it growing up by culturally, you know, how was language book in the family? Because it makes difference in the relationship dynamic, you know, with different speaking languages at home, like I had a client whose parent was Japanese or Korean, and they spoke in English, and then, you know, they never really got to really learn each other's language. So that was kind of hard, you know? And that how did that impact that? So we wouldn't know unless really go deep into their, you know, cultural history, immigrants history, like, how did they How did that family resettle? Because that also has that identity, generational identity that they bring where the immigrants, were they refugees, you know, one of the reasons they moved, right, so all those questions that could be considered
Curt Widhalm 14:51
What kind of barriers do Asian Americans face in seeking out mental health services?
Linda Yoon 14:58
So Asian Americans are Actually, three times less likely to seek out mental health services in the US. So, you can see how little the service is utilized by Asian Americans. First there is lack of understanding of what mental health is, because it can be very poor and concept. In many traditional Eastern medicine, wellness confirm body and mind is a balance of body and mind concept is connection between body and mind in traditional Western concept of mental health and separating, right, that mental health and physical health, so it really wasn't in Asian people to capillary Asian medicine vocabulary, when this concept of mental health in a Western psychology was introduced. So that's one of them. And there's also cultural collectivism, which values family community over individual needs. Many Asian Americans as you grew up in a household that don't really talk about mental health, or emotions in general, and it can, when you seek out mental health services, it can seen as kind of personal failure, that not just on you, but also as a family earlier, it brings shame to the family, because whatever you do, whatever you represent, is not just a reflection of you, but also your family and community. So a lot of Asians will comment, not seeking our mental health services earlier was afraid of how their family will perceive it. And if they will bring shame to the family and their community. This is really true, especially for the first generation immigrants, and then older generations. But I do want to note that second American born, younger generations are more open, and perhaps more westernized, you say, and have more understanding of mental health. And they're utilizing mental health more and encouraging older generation to seek out help and it's needed. Some other external barriers that I might point out is for those who need therapy services, in their native language, or they need a therapist that understands the culture, because the issue is very cultural. There just isn't enough, culturally or linguistically competent service providers and programs out there. And I mentioned earlier that Asians are less likely group to understand or report to US Census, because it has historical context to it like Japanese and campaign, that census was used against them. So census means that you get representation, right, and you get funding. So when we don't know who's there, the funding and resources do not go there. So there is this lack of research done on Asian mental health and funding for the programs that Asian Americans need. So those are some barriers, I will say that are more prominent.
Katie Vernoy 17:55
When we're looking at Asian Americans seeking mental health services, I just think about it, you know, and Kurt nodded to this earlier in the episode, just how much there could be a huge need right now, given all of the anti Asian hate crimes that microaggressions and just terrorism, I mean, like there just seems like there has been big attacks on Asian Americans. And maybe some of it has been more of a spotlight because of, of the time and that the the kind of worse. I think, as a society, we're trying to pay attention to this more. So we've got the model minority myth that basically made this experience invisible, but there's also kind of the objectification of Asian women and the fetishization that occurred. Can you talk with us a little bit about what that is?
Linda Yoon 18:47
Yeah, definitely. There has been a fetishization of Asian woman like historically that a lot of times Asian woman was seen as no going again perpetrator foreigner right, like foreign exotic in some rumors know about Asian woman's body. And I think it really has to do with military like wars, right, where military personnel will go for a long time, you know, Korea, China, Philippines, and then they you know, they needed you know, quote, unquote, they will call comfort woman or they call it a prostitute, but I wonder if they had a choice to do so. They all really added up to this idea of Asian woman because model monetary myth also said, you know, Asian woman's are quiet, obedient. Just Good, good woman. If you want a non troubling woman and give your sexual pleasure is Asian woman so that that narrative, you know, with the military, seeing woman, Asian woman's exotic husband there, and I'm not sure why he was invisible because there's a lot of movies that also fantasize Asian woman, right? Yeah, I've heard penetrating that ideas. And I personally got stories to a lot of Asian woman will have the stories that this you know, creepy old man will come and talk about how they always want to be with an Asian woman, like, out of nowhere. And I know I'm not the only one a lot of Asian women actually do share similar experiences on that. And it's led to the spouse shooting right at once a shooting in March, he really associated the shooter associated Asian woman, as sexual beings in I think he may have statements something about that he wants to eliminate, kill all sexual because he has sex addiction. So he has sex addiction, and then he blamed that on Asian woman. So there are some narratives that came out that he stated around sexual distractions he was trying to fight off, and he blamed Asian woman, associated Asian spouse, you know, with a lot of sexual services. And that was one of the his intention of going to Asian spouse and creating this mass shooting killing of eight people.
Katie Vernoy 21:11
I feel like I know, enough to kind of know what I don't know a little bit. And so I just wanted to get from, from your perspective, what you're seeing what you're hearing what Asian Americans are facing today, because I think therapists need to know. And they need to be prepared to support their clients in in the sessions that they're having with them.
Linda Yoon 21:30
How difficult it is a lot more awareness, especially with anti Asian hate crimes getting more attention. But I do want to note that racism and violence against Asians always been in the US history for centuries. And some notable things that people don't know about as there were anti Chinese movement that causes massacres and lynching of many Chinese people in 1800s. All the way to Chinese Exclusion Act, and more. You know, with the visor model, minority myth narrative, I think that narrative really try to make Asians struggles really invisible. Because like, oh, they're doing so well, right. And although there always been this discrimination and racism, it wasn't really shown. And that really caused a lot of Asians to invalidate their own experience dismissible. They want to experience this because nobody did the media and why society didn't really believe in racism against Asians. And actually, as the pandemic started, like, it's officially started recording. In America, there were a lot of hate crimes being reported, especially shared through social media. However, media didn't really get that on like, there wasn't really attention to it. And it was when the shooting in Atlanta that killed eight people, six Asian woman, that's when media actually really started. agonize, but for many Asians, the rise of hate crimes were very distressful. Even before, it was almost like we had to wait for mass shooting to happen to get some attention. Wow. Yeah, we sell attention and of anti Asian racism, and the hate crime rising made a lot of Asian Americans reflect on their everyday quiet, you know, racism microaggressions, you know, we can say, and as we know, micro aggression is like a paper cut, right? It's like a small paper cup, but you get so much the wound become bigger, and it actually really hurts and it can get infected. Right? And for many, many years, microaggression against Asians were considered acceptable, or even funny, like, I internalize it myself, too, and made myself by identity as Asians, you know, some kind of joke and then people laugh about it. I'm like, okay, but inside of myself, it doesn't feel right and no, I so, I can share some common microaggressions that Asian people do get very most common one is like, Where are you from? Right, because we're professional foreigners, you know, no matter how many generations you have been here, you're a third fourth, fifth generation, you still have the Asian Look, you're not from here, right? And then not taking answer like oh, I was born in the US as an answer. It's like no, where are you really far off? And sometimes, you know, without the person, you know, letting the other person know like, they struggle with English you just say oh, you speak good English. It's not like usually a compliment unless the person you know says something about it insecurity about English, or Asian look the same. Or I'm not attracted to Asian boys. That's a big one. As if that's a preference right for the whole, putting hallways like this regarding whole race just because of race. Or assuming all Asians are good at math. All It seems like a good myth. It really overlook a lot of students who really hate math or not good at math, and not be able to get the proper health. And big one that I shared earlier is you know, Asians are homogeneous monolith, I definitely got some comments like, Oh, where are you from? Right. And I actually was born in Korea. So when they like, Oh, where are you born? And then I'm like, Oh, I see. I was born in Korea. And they start talking about how their niece was adopted from China. Like, that's a poor cultural connection that has no relevance to what I'm talking about. So as if that connection was appropriate, you know, yeah. So my hope is that there will be continual dialogue and education around how harmful motto My name is, has been for everybody, and the stereotypes and biases that come with it, as we really try to validate the Asian experiences that have been on Santa invisibles for a long time. So and that's, I think, May, there's a lot of different things Asian Americans really struggle today. But I think that's one of the main things that this stereotypes and biases are harmful and hurt people.
Curt Widhalm 26:13
For a lot of clinicians who may not have much experience of working with Asian American clients, and their first Asian American client overcome some of these barriers that you've talked about. They finally, you know, feel, hey, I'm going to seek out some services. For those clinicians in those first sessions. There's probably a lot of opportunities to just stumble all over yourself trying to fit in all of these questions in the first place. And trying to say, you know, hey, I've listened to Linda's episode with Curt and Katie. And there's both kind of this taking what's going on with them right now, in all of this current Zeitgeist of what's going on all of the Asian hate, that's, you know, being finally kind of seen in a consistent way across media, social media. What's the best advice that you can give those clinicians kind of in that first experience, as they are trying to create a good therapeutic environment for those clients that invites them back to therapy and isn't just kind of reinforcing some of this mental health divide that exists here,
Linda Yoon 27:30
I believe it will be really balanced of, you know, doing work, to be aware of knowledge and education of, you know, Asian American culture, and also not having any assumptions of the client who comes in who's, who stood in front of you, right, like the basic therapeutic therapy process, like hear their story. Now, there are so many different intersectionality, of individual and Bellamy's story that we might not, we might miss it, we have preconceptions of who they are. So but then we also don't want to not have any cultural background, right? So I think it's just really about balance all of it. But if you don't know a lot about Asian culture, and you know, hopefully, you're committed to it, but you have this client that you just don't have a lot of knowledge at this point. How is it just hear the story and be mindful not to ask the client to be a teacher, though, because it really puts a lot of burden on the client to teach their culture. So really, really hard lineup, like finding that balance, listening, understanding, but also not putting that burden? Unfortunately, I don't think there's a simple answer to it. But if you are present, and you are listening, and doing your own research and understand the consultation, if you need to, I think that will be a good place to start
Curt Widhalm 28:57
Broadening that out for even some of the more savvy clinicians or clinicians who might be more familiar with some of the nuances here. What's kind of the best way to support Asian clients and larger Asian American community for mental health professionals right now.
Linda Yoon 29:13
Best way to support Asian clients and larger Asian American community right now? is being proactive on being anti racist. Like I want to make a point that and being anti racist is not same as not being racist. Yes, it's a proactive term. It's a proactive way of approaching values that work towards fighting racism. You know, not being racist, just not being racist means that you know, I'm avoiding racist situation. I'm not making racist statements. You know, it's very neutral, non active, it doesn't really add to, you know, any work of eliminating racism and we are just holding into Asian American issues because There has been on the news on the media. In the last year, we saw with George for us that there were a lot of attention towards racism against black Americans. And this year, not so much corporate anymore. And Asians racism against Asians will lose interest. And then I can still, I can see the media is covering less and less, even though it is still happening. But the racism because media is not covering, it doesn't go anywhere. It still exists, people still experiences, trauma happens. And fighting and speaking out against racism is not a trend. Right. So regarding the topic, I'm speaking up today, the question I want to ask people is, ask yourself, how am I going to support and be inclusive of my Asian clients and colleagues, now invest in my career, and it really comes down to one thing, being mindful of studying the culture and getting to know the person individually, and really just being less open to listen and learn? I think really being teachable learnable is the biggest thing and ask if you need to, like, Is there something you need individually? or do some research google it different ways that Asian clients or Asian colleagues may want to be supportive? I mean, there's definitely fundraise for anti Asian hate crime prevention, right? Like, I think donations are good way, and just letting people know, hey, like, I'm thinking of you. One thing that I do want to point out is like, if you haven't spoken, this one particular agent, colleague, you know, that you have for years, you know, don't just you know, are polluters contact, it just feels a little impersonal. And then there are some agent clients, actually, and other people that are here to me that they felt a little bit like out of blue, a little insensitive. It's like, now this is a time that you make connection, like you didn't try it for years. So we do want to be mindful that but if you have a relationship with this particular colleague or community, yeah, let them know your support or get involved, really educate yourself on Asian cultures and how it is impacting the Asian cultures or an Asian American culture.
Katie Vernoy 32:17
Yeah. I really liked that advice. It's something where we had some similar advice with Dr. Joy Cox came on and talked about intersectionality, as well as kind of how to support diversity and inclusion. And, and that was one of the things she was saying is like, build real relationships. You know, that's really important. And, and I think that's, that's what you're saying as well. It's like, reach out to the people you actually have relationships with, whether it's therapy clients, or colleagues or friends in that caring, connected way, not as a checkbox or not as like, Hey, can I pick your brain on what's going on in the world right now? Because I think either of those things are very impersonal and harmful. Yeah, definitely. So to summarize kind of what I am hearing, because I think this is this is very, very, very helpful. Thank you, Linda, I think being able to to hold the space for each person's experience is unique, there's going to be a lot of complexity there. You don't say Where are you from? I was, you know, even though that's one of the things that that may be important for therapists to know. But maybe what's your cultural heritage? Is there, you know, is there an immigration story that's relevant to you and your family, kind of being able to get to a place where you can learn more about this individual in front of you, and understand the uniqueness of their experience? And then do research and not have them teach you about all of their culture? Because I think that's important. I just, I'm reflecting on some of the conversations I've had with Asian colleagues, clients, friends, and there is so much that I didn't know about the Asian experience in the United States that I've started learning more about, especially the model minority myth, fetishization and kind of the exotic nature of for Asian women. I think there's just so much that is happening just all over the place that we've been so unaware of. It's been hidden. It's been, it's been invisible. And so I'm so glad we've had this conversation. And I just really encourage people to reach out like you had suggested within their relationships to, to learn more about that person's experience and to support them in whatever way we can. Yeah, definitely. Where can people find more about you? Because this has been very helpful. I'm sure there's gonna be folks that want to learn more about what you're doing and potentially seeking out some consultation.
Linda Yoon 34:40
Yeah, I mean, you can definitely find more about us at yellow chair collected calm. As a psychotherapy group. We do provide individual couples family therapy for all ages. We also run Asian American teen and adult support groups where Asian American teens and adults can come together and learn about how their Racial, intergenerational trauma and Asian American experiences has been. And we are also actively providing trainings and consultation right now to government sectors, corporations, nonprofits, communities on creating dialogue and, and learning about Asian American culture. All of our Asian Americans need to be acknowledged and acknowledged in our communities and workplaces. We have trained therapists that can lead this conversation in safe manner. And we also provide individual consultations for any clinicians who are working with Asian clients and community with any capacity. Thank you.
Curt Widhalm 35:40
And we will include links to yellow chair collective and where you can get more information as well as our past episodes about working with the greater Asian American Pacific Islander communities. And you can find those in our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com, be sure to follow us on our social media as well or we'll continue to share some resources in being able to support the AAPI community. And check out the therapy reimagined conference website where you can get all the latest updates on our little conference that we're putting on at the end of September, here in the Los Angeles area and hybrid streaming to wherever you may be. So check that out at therapy reimagined conference calm. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Linda.
Katie Vernoy 36:32
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Curt Widhalm 36:34
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Katie Vernoy 37:03
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Announcer 37:19
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
How to Fire Your Clients (Ethically) Curt and Katie chat about how to appropriately terminate with clients when icky situations arise. We explore how therapists can develop an ethical decision-making process to protect themselves against possible complaints to ethics boards. We also talk about how privilege plays a role in icky terminations and how therapists can work to balance their safety and self-care with their responsibilities.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How ethics are discussed in social media groups (ethical concerns vs. I don’t like this) * When we can terminate with clients, why can we do it, when we cannot terminate with clients, and what our responsibilities are in these situations. * How therapist’s personal feelings can influence premature terminations and the problems this can lead to (e.g., client abandonment, continuity of care). * Feelings that arise for both the therapist and client when icky terminations happen. * How ethics committees think about complaints and disciplinary actions. * Developing an ethical decision-making process that demonstrates professionalism. * Explore how therapists are held to a higher standard than the general public. * Discuss how privilege (or lack thereof) impacts perceptions professionalism. * How to maintain professional standards when your safety is at risk. * Developing plans for possible icky terminations. * We look at how many therapists are actually reported to ethics boards and how this information is unhelpful. * Managing racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. comments in session and taking care of yourself. * Explore how the structure of ethics committees create barriers to therapists being their authentic self, while also needing these committees to protect the field. * Balancing therapist safety and self-care with therapist responsibilities.
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Buying Time's VA's support businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting, email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve while ensuring that your back office runs smoothly. With a full team of VA's it gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available. Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need - https://buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
CPH Article: Duty to the Patient – Termination of Treatment and Understanding Your Patient
Relevant Episodes:
Therapist Safety
Managing Vicarious Trauma
Bad Business Practices
Ending Therapy
Noteworthy Documentation
Irrational Ethics
That’s Unethical
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
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Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is sponsored by Buying Time,
Katie Vernoy 00:04
Buying Time has a full team of virtual assistants with a wide variety of skill sets to support your business. from basic admin support customer service and email management to marketing and bookkeeping, they've got you covered. Don't know where to start, check out the system's inventory checklists, which helps business owners figure out what they don't want to do anymore and get those delegated ASAP. You can find that checklist at buyingtimellc.com/systemstashchecklist
Curt Widhalm 00:31
Listen at the end of the episode for more information.
Announcer 00:34
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:49
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the pocket about all things therapists the things that we like to do things that we don't like to do. And Katie, and I spend some time in some of the various therapists, Facebook groups, online groups and stuff. And we were inspired by a post that was put somewhat recently about what we're just going to classify as achy terminations. And long time ago, we had done a podcast episode that at least off the top of our minds is about positive terminations and the termination process. And Katie and I have been talking about the roles of When can we terminate with clients? Why can we do it? Why can we not do it? What our responsibilities are in these situations, and especially in some of the discussions that we see in some of these groups that really throw out a lot of, hey, that's unethical sort of things. We have a whole episode on that's on ethical, but I don't actually see a lot of engagement in an ethical decision making process in the statements. And so therefore, that's unethical just kind of stands in for I don't like that.
Katie Vernoy 02:14
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 02:15
So a lot of the questions that we're trying to address in this episode is, when can our feelings kind of lead to us prematurely ending services? And what are our responsibilities in doing so?
Katie Vernoy 02:30
The question around, quote, unquote, premature termination, as far as the treatment standard, the client has not completed treatment, or finished services with you, they don't want to finish with you. I think that's always challenging, because there's a lot of different reasons in my past that I've had to have these premature terminations, there have been shifting programs, I moved from one program to the next. And I had to terminate and transfer a client to a different therapist, I left an agency, I went off an insurance panel, I felt like I was not an effective therapist for someone. And I think most of the time with these quote unquote, achy terminations, I was feeling kind of situated in a place of discomfort, but not I never felt threatened. I never felt like it was something that was too hard for me to navigate. But it was something where I had to make sure that I was considering the client trying to process the termination with them, link them appropriately, and then move on. It's uncomfortable. Oftentimes, clients are upset, they may feel betrayed or abandoned. But I think the the true thing when we get to ethics is about whether in fact, we actually are abandoning them or doing what we need to do in order to get them situated with their next treatment situation.
Curt Widhalm 04:01
And so a lot of these questions are going to come up around things like violence either directed towards the therapist situations where the therapist feels threatened, whether it's a direct threat, whether it's kind of more just kind of course language that isn't necessarily directed at the therapist, we see this in racist comments made by clients, homophobic clients, against therapists who may come from those communities themselves. And the insight that I can really offer on this is having sat through ethics committee meetings as a ethics committee member is it helps to know how ethics committees think of these things, for full transparency purposes and talking about my role in this not speaking on behalf of the camp ethics committee on which I said, but what I can talk about is the process of how we would look at these things and ethics committees. Look at ethics complaints. So asking first and foremost in these situations is, is this ethical for me to do? might not be the right question to start with the right question to start with is how would I ethically do this? And this goes back to that ethical decision making process that I mentioned at the top of the show. And ethical decision making process is look at your ethics codes and see which ethics apply to the particular situation that you're in. Because that's what the ethics committees are going to do. When it comes to things like termination, we're going to look at things like, Is this an abandonment situation? Is this a situation where the therapist took reasonable steps in order to help the client secure other services? Is this something where it's the therapist just making their own personal values, something that is bigger than the therapeutic process that has already been agreed to? And how did they go about instituting the actions that they decided from there? So when we see questions, or when I see questions in some of these groups about is this ethical for me to do? My first response is really, how are you applying your relevant ethics code to the particular situation that you're asking about, because that's ultimately how an ethics committee is going to evaluate this.
Katie Vernoy 06:27
So if we're looking at someone choosing to terminate a client, because they feel threatened by the client, so let's just go there, whether it's a physical threat, a verbal threat, I've had colleagues who were stopped. I mean, there's there's a lot of different ways where there's been actual physical violence, threats of violence, and just kind of threats of identity. So let's be very broad, because I think that that's helpful. What are the things that we actually have to look at? Because I hear kind of abandonment, and maybe continuity of care? But what is my responsibility as someone who is feeling threatened? In that situation? Like, what do I actually have to do? When I'm in a place of feeling threatened?
Curt Widhalm 07:15
The shortest and most distinct answer I can give you is terminate appropriately. Okay. Now, this is where your reasons for feeling the way that you do might necessitate a number of different actions here. But I'm going to point to a article from Richard Leslie over at CPH insurance on their avoiding viability blog. The original part of this that I'm citing right now comes from a 2005 article from him that was updated a couple of times after that. But what Richard points out is if the termination process is not properly carried out, the attempt to end the professional relationship with the client can constitute or be argued as an abandonment of that client, this could lead to lawsuits, complaints to your licensing boards, complaints to ethics committees. And well patients generally have a right to terminate at any time. therapists do not. Now that's not saying you never have these options, what it's saying is that you as a professional, are held to a higher standard through this process. So in situations like what you're describing is that yeah, if a client brings a gun to session, and is pointing it at you and making threats, save your life, like you know, in those moments like do what is do what is necessary and given and document the hell out of that in case you are being investigated. But that is providing the appropriate kind of thoughts for the ethics committee or the disciplinary boards to be able to look at, okay, these are the circumstances that make sense. Now, outside of those incredibly rare situations like that, where it's probably just more uncomfortable sorts of things of saying mean things about you or the communities that you're from, even if they are to a level that is seen and agreed upon by many people as a very heightened and emotionally driven and triggering sort of rhetoric. Not talking about the same level of action here. And this is where our professionality is what separates us from those non professionals is that we are expected to engage in a thoughtful process of what we do that is best for the client regarding these situations.
Katie Vernoy 09:52
The caution I am feeling in the what you're talking about is that there is a very different perception of what happened from someone who sits in privilege versus someone who sets in a number of different marginalized identities. I think there's also a lot of squishiness on what is truly threatening. I've had clients stand over me and say mean things. As a reasonably large woman, I don't necessarily feel completely physically overwhelmed by that. But I also know as a woman, I'm oftentimes feeling more physically threatened than a man might feel in that same situation. And so who determines what is truly a risk or truly dangerous, because there's so much that could be threatening or dangerous that trying to document it appropriately, or trying to explain while the why the hair on the back of my neck is, is up, because I'm feeling very threatened? To me, it seems like, as a clinician, am I able to make that assessment? Or am I going to be held to some standard of someone who doesn't feel threatened by somebody saying something to me,
Curt Widhalm 11:04
rather than taking this from the individual about the profession as what would a reasonable therapist do in the same situation? Now, if there's questions of safety involved, most reasonable therapists are going to look at that in a way of Yeah, this is a client who's showing that they are not able to be physically safe in this kind of work environments, that leads to the appropriate termination process.
Katie Vernoy 11:35
So I don't necessarily have to keep seeing the client and I don't necessarily have to fully justify 27 times over that I'm feeling threatened if someone is similarly situated in the world, to me as a therapist would have a similar response would, and would determine that this client was not appropriate to continue in treatment, I can't terminate the client, I cannot abandon them. Correct. And so you keep saying appropriately terminate. And that feels like it could be three referrals and off you go, or it could be a full processing of the termination. Neither of those extremes feel appropriate when I'm feeling threatened. Because one feels like abandonment, one feels like self abandonment, that I'm I'm sacrificing myself and holding myself to a standard of having this conversation with a client that I feel threatened by. So what do I actually have to do to appropriately terminate someone who I feel threatened by who I do not want to see again,
Curt Widhalm 12:37
you need to do what's best for the client. And given the particulars of the situation that you're in is going to dictate what those actions are. Now, when we have generally high functioning clients who are moving to another jurisdiction, or if we're kind of leaving a practice and retiring, moving on someplace else, and this is a client who may or may not want to start services with somebody else, and appropriate sort of action with them is, hey, here's three referrals in case you're interested, I think these people kind of work like me, you might respond well to them. That's an appropriate thing in that situation. And at the basis of your question is looking for a universal answer to a very nuanced set of different sets of classes. And as far as the topic of this episode goes, his might not be appropriate enough here, in that, for whatever reason, a client like this may be in such a heightened state that just providing them with three names might not be enough for them to actually get the services that they need. And this is where it is important for you as a therapist in these situations to document your reasoning for taking the actions that you have, because that is going to give whatever investigatory committee the insight into the thought process that you're going through. If a client's saying a bunch of racist or sexist or homophobic stuff to a person representing one of those communities. Yeah, I validate any therapists feelings in that situation of, Hey, this is really uncomfortable for me. I don't think that I can benefit this client. I've expressed my views of this is how it affects people from this community. Clients escalated their rhetoric after I shared how my personal values might be affecting our process going forward. And I determined that I cannot serve this client because they're not going to respond to the types of interventions that I'm providing as a representative of that community. Therefore explain that to them. And I gave them three names of people that they might respond to. that's inappropriate termination.
Katie Vernoy 14:58
Okay. What if I decide after I get done with a session? I can't see this client again, I can't talk to this client again. Maybe I was I was in fight or flight in the session, feeling overwhelmed, feeling threatened? How do I do an appropriate termination in that way, because sending an email with three names, doesn't feel like it's enough,
Curt Widhalm 15:21
nor would I have that conversation with them through an email now, okay? appropriate termination, this is easy to imagine in an agency type setting. Sure. Now, if there's a extremely triggering client to you as a therapist in an agency, appropriate termination, doesn't necessarily have to come from you as an individual, that in an agency, it's very easy to imagine somebody else from the agency being a agent on your behalf, who takes care of these very same steps for you. Yeah, I'll be your coworker here and go to this particular client is a client of the agency and say, Hey, Katie is no longer able to do services with you, based on what she's provided about this situation, she feels that it's your best benefit to reach out to one of these three following therapists or based on kind of a treatment team sort of decision, you're going to either be reassigned to this therapist, or you're going to that is a warm process that is handed off. I think a lot of people have difficulties in imagining this is when you're a solo practitioner, and you don't necessarily have somebody else to rely on in this way. But appropriate terminations can still involve having somebody act as an agent on your behalf, preferably a trusted licensed colleague who's working with you somebody that you would have covering your practice on vacation, that there are standards within our profession that do allow for other people to act on our behalf in certain situations. Having somebody do this, if it is not in the benefit of the client for you to do this, or if it's not something that you're able to professionally fulfill your role in that way. An appropriate termination is having somebody act on your behalf in this way, doing basically the same kind of steps for you.
Katie Vernoy 17:20
So as you're talking about it, it makes sense because I did that a lot as a supervisor, manager, director in an agency as I had to have those conversations, I reassigned cases I did all those things. So that totally makes sense. And trying to translate it to private practice and having an agent, someone that might cover your practice. When you're on vacation. What are the confidentiality issues here? Because I think, here's someone that's out of nowhere, their therapist saying, I can't work with you anymore, someone they don't know, comes and says, Hey, Katie, can't work with you anymore. Here. I'm here to help you find a new therapist. I mean, how do you not get in trouble both for abandonment and breaking confidentiality? Like how do you actually do this?
Curt Widhalm 18:10
And your best case and future forward thinking for yourself, you would probably want to add something to your informed consent about situations in which you're incapacitated or otherwise unable to fulfill your professional roles. that a person who has a mental health license may be acting on your behalf, that should alleviate these particular questions, especially if people can provide fully informed consent in those situations.
Katie Vernoy 18:41
Sure. Okay, so you want to make sure that there's informed consent, you want to make sure that you have an agent that you trust that you can accomplish these things? That feels okay to me, because it's not relying on me as a therapist, needing to put myself at risk, either emotionally or physically, as long as I'm doing the things that I need to do for my clients as a professional.
Curt Widhalm 19:08
Sure.
Katie Vernoy 19:09
Okay. So when we're looking at these icky terminations, I mean, what really is the risk? Do we have a sense of how often and maybe this is going down a rabbit hole? But do we have a sense of how often clients actually report folks to the ethics committees or the consumer protection bodies around being abandoned by quote unquote, bad therapists that that won't treat them?
Curt Widhalm 19:38
So I think looking at those kind of gross numbers of these kinds of complaints is not helpful. Okay, the reality is, a lot of these kinds of things don't end up getting reported by clients in the first place. That is not your protection. That is not your ethical or legal protection. Because what is going to happen is that if you are one of those cases that does get reported, this is the evaluation process that you were going to be subjected to. and ethical decision making probably involves thinking about these things, well beforehand, I can easily sit here from my cisgendered, white male hetero privilege, and tell everybody how they should act. But I'm specifically talking about how ethics committees or disciplinary committees would evaluate some of these decisions. So please don't shoot the messenger on this kind of thing. But people sitting on those committees would love, if you have some sort of thought process that you've laid out, at the beginning of your practice of, like I said, putting something in your informed consent about somebody may end up at some point needing to have to act professionally on my behalf. Things like having some sort of documentation manuals that you've set for yourself, as far as if I'm coming from a community that is a target of hate speech, or you know, is reasonably predictive of being targeted by people who are seeking out services and might end up targeting me because of these things, that you're going to have a plan in place of how you're going to respond to those clients. These are things that are that level of professionalism that we are held to that higher standard to that allows us to engage in what many people in these Facebook groups are talking about, which is, you know, take care of yourself first. Taking care of yourself first is having the foresight of these are reasonable situations that I might end up in, in my role as a professional, and here's how I'm going to take care of them. If I do ever run into those.
Katie Vernoy 22:00
That makes sense. And I feel like there's a systemic issue that we can't solve right now. But I feel like there's a nod to professionalism, a nod to being able to behave appropriately and do those things. And you know, as a clinician, I do want to make sure that I'm doing things correctly, I don't know how to formulate what my thought is. So I'm going to talk a little bit and we'll see if it gets anywhere helpful. But there are criticisms that I've heard that I am still sitting in around our profession being too formal or too structured in this way that doesn't allow for real people to actually engage in it. That really supports folks who sit in privilege to be able to be therapists and folks who don't have to conform to these standards, that may be excruciatingly hard to accomplish. Now, what you're describing is planning ahead saying, Hey, I'm going to have horrible things happen to me as a therapist, how do I plan to take care of myself in those situations, whether it's just strategic planning or feeling like I have to put on armor because of the specific things that make me, me? I mean, I think we can argue either way. But is there something we can do as a profession? And I really don't know the answer this. So I'm just asking this kind of openly. Is there something we can do as a profession that helps clinicians to feel safer within it?
Curt Widhalm 23:40
I think the at least part of the question, and maybe to put it in more succinct words is the way that professionalism has been weaponized against marginalized communities in the past. Yes, yes. And is in thank you for pointing out that my intention of using professionalism here is about having foresight, not necessarily about Yeah, wearing a suit and tie or appropriate professional dress to the office and being proper again. Yeah. As a modern therapist, I encourage you to go and let your freak flag fly. Alongside having this professional foresight part of taking care of ourselves as therapists is looking at those reasonably identifiable situations that we may get ourselves into trouble with clients, and to develop safety plans around that. We as a profession, professionals within our profession, tend to have clients act out against us physically at about the same rate as law enforcement do physically. I mean, this is a place where it can and it does happen, and it's an incredibly privileged place. come from thinking that we can have practices that we're not going to be working with people who have mental health issues that are always going to be safe around us. And therefore, having the foresight to plan for those situations is where the level of professionalism comes in. That is where the clinician safety comes in of making this a better place for our clinicians is being able to take the collective knowledge of all of our community and being able to have the conversations of make plans, have conversations of follow through on those plans, don't think that you're never going to run into them be reasonable about the types of people that we work with, document appropriately.
Katie Vernoy 25:47
So, in starting to get towards wrapping up, I think there's a couple of different episodes, and we'll link to them in the show notes, but one of them is therapist safety. That was one that we did that was about true physical violence that led to the death of colleagues in Northern California, I think that there's an importance to understand how we protect ourselves as individuals, as clinicians, I think there's an importance in making sure that to the best of our ability, that we're taking care of our responsibilities as a clinician. And the thing that I want to just highlight again, is that may not be putting ourselves back into the fray, it could be having a supervisor or a colleague, an agent of some sort, make sure that your professional responsibilities are taken care of. And that feels okay with me. I think it's, it's something where when these conversations go to a place of judging someone's response to a client, going to judging a person's own felt sense of the level of threat, that's where I get very protective of therapists, I understand that we are held to a different standard. I don't know if that's okay. 100% of the time.
Curt Widhalm 27:07
And that's where, for us to keep a level of professionalism, and being able to rely on things like our ethics committees to help make those case by case situations, actually does help protect us more than the absence of them. Yeah, what I mean by that is that having ethics people review these situations as they come up, is at least people from a shared background and a institutional knowledge of working in mental health, that allows for the very nuanced discussions and decision making process and whether or not something's unethical or not. In the absence of that, what happens is it becomes government regulated, and it becomes legislatively mandated, and those evaluations are not necessarily done by people who have the same kinds of work experience that you do. Yeah. And so the squishiness of this, sometimes it feels kind of bad, but ultimately, there's more good created out of this because the people who are ultimately making the decision on whether your actions are ethical and representative of the profession, or people who've likely been there themselves.
Katie Vernoy 28:28
I think we've said what we can.
Curt Widhalm 28:32
We will include links to these past episodes and relevant articles in our show notes. You can find those at MTSGpodcast.com. And check out the therapy reimagined conference, we've got that coming up at the end of September - September 23 24th 25th. Live in Los Angeles and virtually wherever you may be if you can't make it out to hang out with us in person. And until next time. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 29:02
Thanks again to our sponsor, Buying Time
Curt Widhalm 29:05
Buying Time VA supports businesses by managing email communications, CRM or automation systems, website admin and hosting email marketing, social media, bookkeeping and much more. Their sole purpose is to create the opportunity for you to focus on supporting those you serve by ensuring that your back office runs smoothly for the full team of VAs gives the opportunity to hire for one role and get multiple areas of support. There's no reason to be overwhelmed with running your business with this solution available.
Katie Vernoy 29:34
Book a consultation to see where and how you can get started getting the support you need. That's buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation once again, buyingtimellc.com/book-consultation.
Announcer 29:50
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter and Please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
How to Overcome Impostor Syndrome to Leave Your Agency Job An interview with Patrick Casale, LCMHC, LCAS, about how impostor syndrome and other barriers can get in the way of therapists moving forward into private practice. Curt and Katie talk with Patrick about what it takes to make the leap from negative work situations and become a “therapist wizard.” We also look at lots of creative ideas on how to step into fear to confront impostor syndrome as well as how to build a private practice that’s right for you.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Patrick Casale, MA, LCMHC, LCAS Patrick currently works as a private practice coach and strategist and private practice owner. He lives in Asheville NC with his wife Ariel and two dogs, Hudson and Hazel. He’s worked in the helping profession since 2008. In the last 12 years, he’s worked in several different arenas in community mental health. From a qualified professional to the program director, he found himself constantly being promoted to middle management roles where he was able to see both sides of the coin. It was hard watching his staff work so hard for so little while trying to appease the powers that be who typically were out of touch with day-to-day operations. He has worked full time as a private practice therapist for the last three years. In those three years, he’s traveled to 8 different countries, taken lots of vacations, grown his business to a point where it feels easy and routine, and has helped other therapists in the area do the same.
In this episode we talk about: * The ideas around impostor syndrome and how it impacts therapists * Common mistakes therapists make when moving from community mental health to private practice * How therapists can consistently negatively evaluate their own competence * Entrepreneurial anxiety and missteps based on lack of confidence * The early messages and attachment issues that impact self-esteem, perception of competence * Embracing fear to move forward, accepting that mistakes are inevitable * Vulnerability and authenticity, perfectionism * Taking power back through making impostor syndrome playful * Looking at how different identities are impacted by “impostor syndrome” * Conflicting and negative messages that therapists get * Entitlement and pessimism from more seasoned clinicians * Abundance versus scarcity mindset * How to become a therapist wizard * Moving from an agency to private practice * The danger of staying in an agency when you’re at the point of no return * The lack of specific numbers or exact instructions on when you should make the leap * The importance of networking when building a private practice * Ideas for overcoming anxiety and still move forward on starting your private practice * The importance of having an exit plan and steps in place * Making decisions on what is needed versus what is desired, what values can be considered * The goals that are possible once you move into your own private practice * Creativity in how you set up your practice * Understanding what you need to set yourself up for success
Our Generous Sponsor: The Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live. We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker. This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts. This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin. You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
https://casalecoaching.com/
Patrick’s All Things Private Practice Facebook group
Relevant Episodes:
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Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
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Our consultation services:
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Healthcasters.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
The healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists and private practice and therapists turn coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about the health casters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Listen at the end of the episode for more information about healthcasters,
Announcer 00:29
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:45
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that deals with All Things therapists, the things that we do the things that we don't do the things that we make up that other people think about us and how to deal with those kinds of things. And today, we are joined by the world's foremost expert on imposter syndrome, who is going to teach us about everything... just kind of our fun way of leading into imposter syndrome jokes. So, up to you to believe this or not, Patrick Casale he's one of our Therapy Reimagined 2021 speakers. He's a lcmhc and an lcsw. And here to talk to us about imposter syndrome. Thanks for spending some time with us today
Patrick Casale 01:35
Curt and Katie, thanks for having me. And that just made me have even more imposter syndrome. So thank you for that.
Katie Vernoy 01:42
No pressure, no pressure at all. And what we do is then we also add the the wonderful task of answering this question right when you come on, who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Curt Widhalm 01:56
Who do you think you are?
Katie Vernoy 01:57
Who do you think you are?
Curt Widhalm 02:00
What gives you the right?
Patrick Casale 02:03
I'm a big office fan Curt. So we can get along now. So I live in Asheville, North Carolina, and I own a group practice here in town. And I also own a private practice coaching and building business that helps therapists take the leap from agency jobs and start their own businesses.
Katie Vernoy 02:24
That is such a needed service. Because I think, as most of our listeners know, I was in community mental health for a very long time. And when I ejected from that system, I definitely would have wanted your support, Patrick. So one of the questions that I that we ask everyone is what do you think therapists often get wrong? And I'm going to put that more specifically to when they're moving from an agency job to private practice, what do you think they typically get wrong?
Patrick Casale 02:52
That is such a good question. There's so much the answer to that question. I'll tell you some of the things that I typically see that is pretty consistent, the lack of belief that they can be successful, that nobody is going to pay them for their services, that nobody makes it on their own, that they have to take insurance to get clients. And a lot of therapists just obviously don't understand business, right? Because they never had formal business training or marketing training. And that is really problematic when starting a business.
Curt Widhalm 03:34
We have started this episode here talking joking about some imposter syndrome. This is something that a lot of people do struggle with, and at various points in their career and at various points of success in what they're doing. How did you become interested in imposter syndrome in this whole process? Because part of what you're describing is people facing some of these realities of having a lot of credentials, having a lot of experience that would say, you know, the only difference is that you're coming to see me in an office I pay the rent for rather than in somebody else's office that they're paying the rent for. So how did you first become interested in this process?
Patrick Casale 04:18
I just recognize that feeling really all of my life, but more so when it comes to growth in business development, or betting on myself so to speak. So when I started my practice, you're right, like, all the training, all the supervision, all the agency experience, but because it's my business, this is really scary. And I clearly am not competent enough to be successful at it, which was always the mentality. And you know, I would notice that feeling a lot when maybe a client interaction didn't go well and they terminated and you would ask yourself, I'm I clearly am not a competent therapist. business owner, I cannot be successful at this. I don't know what I'm doing. And I just felt that so intensely so often. And just recognizing what was happening this entrepreneurial like, insecurity in terms of who am I? How am I actually able to be hired to provide a service when I don't even think that I'm good at it. And that would happen just so often. And I would process that with my own therapist. And that definitely helped. But, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't make it go away. You started talking about imposter syndrome publicly, this summer, over COVID. I was just kind of bored in my house all the time. And I would go on Facebook Lives and just talk about the imposter syndrome phenomenon and how we can have all of the training and expertise and credentials in the world. But we are the ones who believe that we are not sufficient enough or competent enough or skilled enough to be successful. And a lot of times that feels like why me, I just lucked into this. And I noticed myself having imposter syndrome, talking about imposter syndrome. And it would be a Facebook Live that nobody was even watching. But I'm like, but somebody is gonna know and find out that I am a fraud. And they're gonna call me on it. And that turned into doing webinars and presentations on it. And of course, the first one that I did, I forgot to hit record for an hour. And afterwards, everyone's like, this was so great. I can't wait to watch this over and over and over again, how you can't record it.
Katie Vernoy 06:51
Oh, man, that's awful. That's awful. I think it's, it's refreshing to have someone talk about it so authentically. And I think there's more of an effort of folks being authentic and claiming some of these challenges, but the way that you were just talking about it, like I felt it in my heart. And it's clear that it's something that you've definitely been working on and grappling with. Maybe we can talk about your story or or how you see how imposter syndrome gets in the way for therapists. But it seems like many therapists are resonating with this imposter syndrome idea and having this notion like why me I lucked into it. Why would people hire me like all of these things that you were saying? It seems like a lot of us resonate with that. Where do you think that comes from? And how do you think that gets in the way for therapists,
Patrick Casale 07:40
I think it gets in the way by preventing people from pursuing the things that they really want to do, the things that they really care about, it gets in the way, and prevents people from taking risks, because it's easier to stay in your box and not grow. And it's less scary to do that, even if that means working at an agency job that for all intents and purposes, like is just brutal and wearing you down. But you know, you're gonna get a paycheck every other Friday, and you know what to expect. It's really scary. And I really do believe that imposter syndrome comes from an attachment focus perspective, where we're given mixed messages as kids, when we grow up, and our parents tell us how you got an A in class, you're so smart. And then you get a D and it's like, what the hell is wrong with you, you're, you're stupid, or you're not trying. And I think those mixed messages are really negatively impactful and impact our self esteem and our confidence. And it makes us second guess ourselves in our capabilities and our abilities in general. And I think it comes up for people when they're trying something new when they're trying to grow, especially in business development, or when they're trying to maybe level up and be they feel like maybe they're not as competent as their peers or their colleagues, and that they feel like they don't have enough training. I hear that a lot. I don't have enough training to be in private practice. Why would somebody hire me if somebody else offers EMDR therapy? And I don't? Like those are the things that I feel like really hold us back from pursuing the things that really allow us to do fantastic work in these types of fields.
Curt Widhalm 09:36
So what's the answer? For a lot of people facing these issues? What do you suggest the people work on so that way they can regain their confidence back, you know, we can't go back and fix what our parents said to us or any of those mixed messages that we've had in the past. What do you suggest to people to feel the confidence to get past some of these lingering doubt,
Patrick Casale 10:01
such a good question. And I don't think there's one specific answer. But I have several. I think embracing that fear and stepping into it, talking about it, putting it out to the world is really powerful. Because it, it takes some of the power away from the stuff that feels really frightening and overwhelming. So you need to have a good support system to put this out there with. And when I talk about this stuff, some people will message me and say, Why are you being so vulnerable are so authentic? This is like taboo, essentially. And I'm like, I don't believe that. I think that if we talk about it, then it's not as frightening. It makes it less intimidating, because it's normalized by other people who are like, Oh, yeah, I experienced the same exact thing. So then it's like, well, very clearly, it just can't be me. Even though I'm feeling it so intensely. But I think a good strategy is to allow yourself to make mistakes and to tell yourself that you're going to fail, or you're going to have a hard time when trying something new. When we learn to ride a bike, we probably fall off a bunch of times before we learn how to ride. And we need to do the same thing in terms of creating growth, leaving your agency job starting your private practice starting your group practice, because you're gonna make mistakes. And that's okay. I think a big symptom of imposter syndrome is perfectionism, and trying to do everything perfect all the time, because it's like, I can't put this out to the world. Because it's not perfect, people are gonna judge me, they're gonna know that I'm fraudulent. And I think that we have to remind ourselves very often, that asking for help is okay. One strategy I really love is making it playful, giving imposter syndrome, a funny voice or a funny name of someone maybe that you don't respect that much or you laugh at. And I did a presentation and a friend brought up like I was so like Harry Potter and Bogart like, and I thought, I hate Harry Potter, what are you talking about? But she was alluding to the fears that all of the main characters had. And when they made them playful, when they put like roller skates on a snake, or like, made something have a really funny voice, you take the power back, it's not as intimidating.
Katie Vernoy 12:39
Yeah, I think that's an interesting concept. And, to me, this idea of giving imposter syndrome, a funny voice or having it be playful. I think that's, I mean, it's kind of the old phrase, like, if you're nervous and public speaking, imagine everybody naked or you know, whatever, like, you know, kind of do the thing where all of a sudden, that becomes ridiculous. And I hear that I also recognize that there are things that are hard to make playful that that can lead to imposter syndrome, there's a lot of stuff that are very real systemic issues that can be part of different clinicians experiences and why they may have imposter syndrome. We don't have to go down too far down the road if you don't want to, but it just feels like, you know, there's imposter syndrome for white folks. And then there's also Patan imposter syndrome for bipoc individuals and other folks in March with marginalized identities where they are consistently told that they are imposters or that their failures or that kind of stuff are treated and you know, kind of had that kind of experience of being ignored or invisible or undercut in some way. And so, what do you think about that question about how folks with different identities impact interact around imposter syndrome?
Patrick Casale 13:59
is a great, great, great statement and needs to be made. You know, colonialism definitely shapes that word, right? Because there's not a lot of research on imposter syndrome. The one one of the main studies you can find was done in the 70s. It was all about women in the workplace, but especially women of color in the workplace, not feeling like they belonged or fit in. But that's because they were told all their lives that they didn't. Yeah, and they had to work so much harder to get there. And obviously, as a white male with a lot of privilege. I don't experience those things on a day to day basis. But we have to be aware of the fact that that term does not mean the same thing for everybody. So for bipoc folks and people of color in general, like who have to fight a million times harder to get to the same place and are told constantly that they're inadequate or not worthy or not as good It takes on a whole different meaning. And I almost hate to use the word imposter syndrome when we're talking like this in that way, it's actually created some internal conflict in terms of how do I want to shape what I'm going to talk about in September? Yeah, because it's really important to honor that and to acknowledge the fact that if we berate and abuse and make people feel less than, of course, they never feel like they, they made it or they fit in or they belong, or they're as competent, if not more competent,
Curt Widhalm 15:34
and in particular to our field. I want to go back to what you were talking about earlier, as far as some of these mixed messages, what are some of the mixed messages that you see us sending to younger therapists that contribute to some of the stuff that you're talking about? Or people who might be ready to launch? Because our field seems to be fraught full of contradictory sort of messages that we send people?
Patrick Casale 16:00
Yeah, absolutely. One thing stands out to me. When I quit my job at my agency, I did like an exit interview lunch. And my program manager said, I'll see you back here in 60 days, because nobody makes it on their own. You can't be successful working for yourself, you'll be back here begging for your job back. I think that we hear that in graduate school, too. I think we hear it a lot. Not in all grad school programs, I want to say that, I think in most grad school programs, we're told that you don't get into this field to make money. You don't get into this field to be successful. You get in this field to be a helper. And although that's true, this is a complex field where we can do both simultaneously. And we can make good livings as helping professionals and still help people. But I think that it's really drilled in in the agency environment, because there is this fear that people are just going to continue to leave. We can't maintain employees here because people are going to continue to leave us. I also see that sometimes for more seasoned clinicians, who maybe it comes from an envious place of like, I want all the referrals, or I don't want to refer to these young clinicians who don't have as much experience as me, why are they charging as much as me, I see that a lot in a lot of the communities that I'm a part of
Katie Vernoy 17:30
the young whippersnappers taken our referrals,
Patrick Casale 17:33
right, our jobs and our referrals
Curt Widhalm 17:35
I'm trying to think of a nice way of saying that there's almost an entitlement of more seasoned people who've been in these positions of like, how dare you come in and do things better than me like that? We really just have to continue to keep getting over ourselves. And yeah, you know, maybe part of it, you know, does come from kind of that like scarcity mindset that a lot of clinicians kind of just pass on some of this imposter syndrome and sort of thing, like, I've got to have my quarter of the market. And therefore, if the best way of me doing that is making you too anxious about your quarter of the market, like it's, especially here, the utilization of mental health services over the last year or so in the pandemic, like, there's plenty of people who need our health break. And it should be something where to help not just, you know, make this a multi generational trauma within our field that we can just kind of keep building each other up on this.
Patrick Casale 18:39
Yeah, that's, that's really well said. And speaking of, there's enough people that want our help. I mean, once the running joke in our field, or not choke, the frustration that nobody calls clients back, right. So like, if that's a situation that's arising, and there's more clients than clinicians to go around, we can all support one another success, and I do believe in the abundance mentality, and that would be the same. I'll say that imposter syndrome prohibited me from starting my private practice and coaching business because I live in the same city as Alison and abundance, right? So how can anyone ever hire me if Alison per year exists here, it's the mentality that we can all be successful because we all have different voices, we all have different approaches and styles. And I think that's really important for young clinicians to remember that there's room for everybody. And just because you don't offer a certain modality or don't have a certain training, as long as you're doing supervision and working ethically and understanding culture and continuing to work on anti racism. I don't understand why we can't have more private practice clinicians who feel like they can also be successful that we don't have to like work ourselves. into burnout mode before we can suddenly jump ship and become like, therapist wizards and leave the agency world behind.
Katie Vernoy 20:10
jumping ship and becoming therapists, wizards. I love it. So okay, so I have so many thoughts going on my head, but I but I'm gonna take
Curt Widhalm 20:20
her brains going a mile a minute,
Katie Vernoy 20:26
at least a mile a minute, at least a mile a minute. But you know that 60 miles per hour. So anyway. Okay, so let's talk about this becoming a therapist wizard, because I think that there's a lot of folks who listened to our podcast, and we even had Marissa on and she was talking about her listening as she was driving around and public mental health listening to the podcast, and deciding then and there that she was going to make the leap when she could. And we don't actually have an episode on how do you do this? Like, how do you leave community mental health and move out into private practice? So now that they're ready, because they've listened, they've decided I am going to fight imposter syndrome and become a therapist wizard? What do they need to consider? Or what are the logistics for moving to private practice from public or community mental health?
Patrick Casale 21:34
I have a, I've done some videos on that, you know, how do I know when I'm ready to leave my agency job? When will I know that it's like the best decision, right? And there's never a absolute certainty that you're going to leave and that things are gonna work out perfectly? If that was the case, everybody would do it. But I think that, you know, when you start to question, what else is there, you start to have this internal dialogue of why did I go to grad school for this, because this is not enjoyable. This is not something that lights me up every morning to come here and work 50 hours a week and be on call and be in crisis all the time. Maybe I'll go back to working at Starbucks, like, that's got to be better than this. I think when you start to really question what else is out there? How else can you make a living? I think that if your value system aligns with autonomy, and freedom and travel and movement, and not being micromanaged, then you need to start considering it. And there's never gonna be a certain amount of clients or a certain amount of money coming in for private practice to be a sure thing to leap out of that agency job. I encourage therapists to do anything they can to get out of the agency world to start their practices, including go drive for Uber Eats, as you continue to build your practice, like, you can still make money. And it doesn't have to be at a community mental health agency if you're at the point of no return. So once your mental health, your physical health, your burnout starts kicking in, it's too late, you've waited too long. We all know the people who work in community mental health who putter around the halls who are like lifers and have never left and are miserable. You don't want to be that person. It depends. Everyone's situations are so different, right? Like financial situations, partnerships, lack of partnerships, whatever the case may be. I just knew it was time when my physical health started failing. I ended up in the hospital from stress, like I was done. I wasn't going to be a therapist anymore when I decided to leave. And I never thought I would be successful in private practice that never crossed my mind. It never was even a thing that I thought about. I think when we're in the thick of it and in crisis all the time, we can't think about other opportunities or possibilities. So I would say this. If you're considering leaving and going into private practice, ask yourself what if you value things about entrepreneurial ship, autonomy, making your own decisions, your own schedule, seeing the clients the way you want to see them when you want to see them, it's probably for you. Now it's just about how to put the pieces in place and whether that means leaving to go to a group practice to get some feelers out there and feel a little bit more comfortable. Sure. I think that's a great middle ground. I don't know if there's ever a certain like box you check for number of clients or amount of money you're bringing in and I think a lot of people want to know that like magic number. And I can say that I started a practice at night, and I found myself networking on my lunch hours. And I found myself taking PTO to go to my private practice and feeling so energized in the evening after working 50 hours a week. sitting in my chair in my office, paying my rent getting my phone phone calls, like it just felt so empowering. And I built myself up to 15 clients felt confident put a 90 day notice in because you know, my agency needed me. They needed me around as a supervisor. As soon as I worked that notice out 10 of those 15 clients left on vacation, went back to school moved out of the state. And I questioned it. And I was like, What did I just do?
Katie Vernoy 25:26
Oooh, that's tough.
Patrick Casale 25:28
It was tough.
Katie Vernoy 25:31
So what did you do, don't leave us hanging.
Patrick Casale 25:36
I networked a lot. I blogged a lot. I embraced free time, because I kept thinking, This is why you did this, you wanted free time in your schedule, and now you have it and you feel scared. And I remember going to lunch with a colleague here in town and making the comment of, well, if this doesn't work out, I can always go back to my agency job. And she was like, absolutely not. That's never an option, do not think that way or you will fail. When I stopped thinking that way. I realized that I opened up space and energy and started to believe that I can become successful. And I believe that networking is one of the most important things you can do to build a successful private practice.
Curt Widhalm 26:20
Sometimes in hearing these conversations, you know, there's a percentage of this that does really come from privilege. And not everybody's going to be able to take that monetary leap some people's situations, you know, whether it's their home life, their student loan bills, any of this kind of stuff that keeps them stuck into one of these jobs. And yet, they're still grieving, they're still believing that they've got these steps, hearing stories, like, Oh, I worked out my 90 days, and then two thirds of my caseload just went away. What helps people in those situations that might not be quite there yet, but are also maybe teetering to the I'm going to be stuck in this position forever.
Patrick Casale 27:07
I'd say join a group practice, you know, go work for someone and make more money and work less hours, you know, you, you can still provide and take care of your needs. And still leave a setting that you don't feel like there are any other options for you know, you can work for some of these. I didn't want to say it out loud. These EAP contracts and these online organizations to I don't I don't love that mentality. I know y'all have done podcast episodes on it before. I just think they're a group practice, you can contract, you know, you can do contract work somewhere, there are options, you can start your practice at night and on the weekends. So it doesn't impact your day to day, you know, you can start to dip your toe, right, like, you don't have to just jump into it, you can simply step slowly into it, and start to see how it feels. work. You know, see some clients on Saturdays, a lot of people do that, at first see some clients in the evenings. You know, I think there are a lot of ways to do this and still maintain your day to day your employment, the stuff that pays the bills, the student loan debt, the health insurance, everything, everything that comes with it. And the recognition that not everyone's situation is the same.
Katie Vernoy 28:27
I understand your mixed reviews on some of these provider networks or or some of the online things. But I think there are some good ones and some that are unscrupulous. So I think that regardless whether it's a group practice or a provider network, or EAP is or those kinds of things you want to do the research because you could end up doing an EAP that pays you very little, you could end up in a worse situation with an unscrupulous online provider. And I think it's important to be able to really plan your exit, recognizing that this is the first step and, and I hear thinking about it now. And I think about my escape from community mental health, the exhaustion that is already in place and thinking about adding a full day of work or going somewhere after work in the evenings. And how overwhelming that seems. And so I think another piece of this is making sure that you kind of parse it down to the little tiny steps that you can take this little tiny steps have a clear goal. Because even doing that I feel like brings hope, right? I mean, you get that hope of like I have the plan. Maybe I'm having to work an extra hour or five hours or 10 hours a week, you know as you build up but I have a plan to exit and I think that can be very good. And so I want to just say yes it is a lot of work. But what you're saying Patrick is very sound like you need to have your exit plan and and if you can't eject from A system or you aren't ejected forcefully objected from a system with when it's not your choice, then you can set some of those milestones and those little goals where you can kind of do each of the little pieces so that you can start your practice. And especially now with telehealth being an option, there's a lot of things that you can do with very little overhead and with very little setup. And so connecting with someone like Patrick might be a great idea, if you're thinking you want to stick your toe into it, because you can set up in a day, a whole practice, you don't have to like go look for offices or find forms, like you can just use the tools that are there. So I would recommend kind of thinking through what are the steps you can take, because having an exit plan is so different when you're looking at additional work.
Patrick Casale 30:53
And so different if you're raising a family, or you have other responsibilities other than yourself. So just having to really balance that. And even Katie does such a good point, you know, like doing one thing a week even to check it off the list to just say, I'm working towards this, you know, like getting an employee identification number like deciding if you're going to take health insurance, like some of the decisions that you have to think about early on, but are easy to just cross off the list and make you feel like you're moving towards something.
Katie Vernoy 31:26
Yeah.
Curt Widhalm 31:27
For helping people to think beyond into that success mindset. How do you help encourage them to envision what their ideal practices are?
Patrick Casale 31:38
I like to always start with what is absolutely necessary, right? Like, we need to know differences in numbers. So numbers that I need to make, to pay the bills to keep the lights on to pay for food, right? Like that number has to be known. But I always like to ask people what they want out of this. And that doesn't always have to be monetary. That could be I only want to work three days a week. I want to see 25 clients a week between five days. I never want to work past 4pm. But it is about what do you value? What do you want out of this career. And I think that's really important, because it's not the same for everybody. And I asked a lot about travel about vacation time building and sick time building and time for mental health days, like how to start to do that. And people will always say like, I would, I would love to just have three weeks off a year. And I'm like, well, we can probably think a little bit bigger, because you're gonna make more money, so you can budget differently. And again, we have to take into account privilege, we have to take into account the fact that some people are going to work and see 50 clients a week. I'm not here to dictate that circumstance. But just to ask people, what do you want out of your business model? What do you want it to look like? Do you want more time for your family to want less time for your family? Do you why you know to have more hobbies? Do you know do you want to read more coffee shop time do you want four day weekends, three day weekends, like everyone's goals are so different, but they're also possible to you know, I privileged enough to take 12 weeks off a year and travel, I also have a partner that is able to support that that's not going to look like that for everybody. So if I, the biggest thing I get a lot is like I want a three day weekend every week, I never want to work Fridays. So be it great. That's a great goal. I think that we need to get back to really practicing self care and work life balance, not the work life balance that is discussed at our agency jobs, where we put a PTO request in and we get emails or text messages while we're on vacation.
Katie Vernoy 33:59
The piece that I heard there that I really like and I have to keep reminding myself, especially folks who have been so ingrained in an agency setup is that we can actually bake in what we want. We can we can bake in a three day weekend, we can bake in 12 weeks off, that's awesome. We can we can put those things together and determine what our practice has to look like. I mean, there is some there are some parameters that would we have to pay attention to if we we live and work in an area that can't support a $400 an hour session, then maybe we can't do that. We can't have you know, I'm gonna work, you know, five hours a week, 12 weeks off and make $200,000 like maybe we can't do that. But like there's there are reasonable parameters and even exciting parameters that we can bake in. And I think being able to be creative is impossible when you're still in the mix of committee. Mental Health. And so having that conversation, I really like that I like being able to say, Okay, what is it that you actually want? And recognizing that you set all the rest of the parameters, what you charge how many clients you see, you know, there's some stuff that is dictated by the market, but a lot of it, you still really dictate and can can set that together. And so I think that's a great idea. What is your ideal private practice? What have you baked in? What What can we all aspire to, because like, 12 weeks off, I'm like, That is amazing.
Patrick Casale 35:29
Yeah. And that's because I'm fortunate enough, right to not have to, like be as concerned financially. But my goal is also not to make $200,000 a year in private practice, I could, but I don't want to, I want to travel more and take more time off. And that's always been my goal. But I think what you just said is really hits the nail on the head is like, the more time and space you can give yourself, the more creative you can be. So my ideal practice right now is actually something I'm living, which is seeing eight ideal clients a week, running my group practice, and running my private practice and coaching business. So I can do a little bit of everything because I do, I am neurodivergent, I need a lot of stimulation, I need a lot of different things happening all the time. So I can not always be focused on clinical work, I can move into administrative work and leadership work and coaching work and do all of those things simultaneously. But that didn't happen right away. That took four years, five years to get to this point. But yeah, that that is my ideal situation right now.
Katie Vernoy 36:37
Nice.
Curt Widhalm 36:38
Where can people find out more about you and all of the stuff that you're doing,
36:43
they can find out about me at casalecoaching.com or at my facebook group, all things private practice.
Curt Widhalm 36:52
And we'll include links to those in our show notes. You can find those over at mcsg podcast calm. And you can also check out the therapy reimagined conference where Patrick will be joining us this September. And you can find out more about that at therapy reimagined conference calm for all of the latest updates, as well as following our social media. And we'll also include links to those in our show notes. And until next time, I'm Kurt Helms, Katie Vernoy. And Patrick. So
Katie Vernoy 37:22
thanks again to our sponsor, the Healthcasters
Curt Widhalm 37:25
Wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in the health casters podcasting course it includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guest templates to let guests know that podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more about health casters, it's selling the couch comm join the health casters
Katie Vernoy 38:15
into the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price. And just a reminder that sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.
Announcer 38:25
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do and mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
An Incomplete List of Everything Wrong with Therapist Education An interview with Diane Gehart, LMFT, on what works in therapy and where the field is headed. Curt and Katie talk with Diane about the overwhelming amount of information new therapists must learn in school and how this impacts their confidence. We also explore how the field is moving towards synthesizing theories and how this will impact future clinicians.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Diane Gehart, LMFT Diane Gehart, Ph.D. is Professor in the Marriage and Family Therapy and Counseling Programs at California State University, Northridge and has a private practice in Agoura Hills, California. She has authored several professional books including Mindfulness for Chocolate Lovers: A Lighthearted Way to Stress Less and Savor More Each Day, Mindfulness and Acceptance in Couple and Family Therapy Mastering Competencies in Family Therapy, Theory and Treatment Planning in Counseling and Psychotherapy.
In this episode we talk about: * Who Diane Gehart is and what she has (and continues) to contribute to the field. * Diane discusses what is wrong with therapist education and how it impacts newer therapists. * How we can help students feel more confident when they enter the field, while still providing a good education. * The abundance of theories students need to learn in graduate school and how the future of the field will be synthesis of theories. * How the synthesis of theories will impact testing for licensure. * Diane discusses how focusing on client outcomes and finding quality training can support confidence in new clinicians. * How cultural considerations can be included in the synthesis of theories. * Using the client’s reality/perspective to make therapy work, rather than focusing on interventions. * Explore how different parts of the field (e.g., clinicians, researchers, educators) contribute to what is wrong with therapist education. * The need for synthesized information to be more widely available to make more competent therapists. * Balancing helping clinicians to feel more confident while also encouraging them to be self-motivated to learn. * What are the best things clinicians can do right now to improve their confidence?
Our Generous Sponsors: Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live. We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker. This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts. This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin. You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Diane Gehart
Therapy That Works
Mastering Competencies
Mindfulness at Our Schools
Diane on YouTube
Relevant Episodes:
You DO NOT Have to be a Thought Leader
Reigniting Therapy
How to BE a Therapist
Unlearning Very Bad Therapy
Showing Up for Your Clients
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide is brought to you by The Healthcasters.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists and private practice and therapists turn coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about The Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapyreimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Listen at the end of the episode for more information about The Healthcasters.
Curt Widhalm 00:29
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:45
Welcome back modern therapists this is the Modern Therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast about all things therapists things that we do the places our field is where it's going. And we are once again joined by one of our therapy reimagined 2021 speakers Dr. Diane Gehart LMFT talking about the future of psychotherapy. And this is something where we're really excited to always look forward of where we're going. And for our longtime listeners know that we kind of try to push the envelope here with the things that we do on the podcast with our conference. It's always wonderful to have like minded people, and not making lots of stupid jokes start this because Diane's my boss over at State University, Northridge. So thank you for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me.
Katie Vernoy 01:44
We're so excited to have you here. And we start each of our interviews with this question. Who are you? And what are you putting out into the world?
Diane Gehart 01:53
Wow, wow, that is a that's a big question. I'm going to try to keep it simple though. I'm Diane Gehart. I am a licensed marriage Family Therapist I have been a professor of family therapy for I'm coming up on my 25th year of teaching full time, I currently run the family therapy program at CSUN. And Curt is our amazing law & ethics instructors. So it's really a pleasure to be here. And yeah, and
Curt Widhalm 02:22
I'm just jumping in. I'm going to point out to one of our listeners, Dr. Ben Caldwell, She didn't mention you. Okay, go ahead. Okay, okay. Okay,
Diane Gehart 02:32
but you teach too la & ethics classes for me, and Ben only teaches one,
Curt Widhalm 02:36
so I'm twice as good, as bad, as valuable, as valuable to me.
Diane Gehart 02:45
Let me tell you, you two are the best of the best. And so we absolutely have the best law and ethics classes of any MFT program in the United States, I'm really sure of that. So yes, in addition to hiring some of the best faculty in the world, I do a lot of writing in the area around mental health theories. I've written textbooks, And I believe I'm the only person who's written mental health textbooks on both family therapy and counseling theories, which are actually two different worlds, if you're in the mental health world, that I'm really passionate about theories, and how therapists learn. I've done a lot of work around trying to create better ways for people to learn how to become therapists using competencies and simulation and all sorts of new things. So that's something a bit about me and what I do, what I put out in the world,
Curt Widhalm 03:32
As an educator that has been around for quite a while. Very loaded question to start out with here. But what's what's wrong with therapist education?
Diane Gehart 03:45
Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, it is, it is a big question. And I have, I've really been privileged, I think in my career, too. And I've had people say, Diane, how do you end up at the forefront of everything, and I really have been blessed and lucky. I did a lot of training early in my career. And it's really been fascinating to watch the evolution of what has happened over the last 20-30 years in the field. Because when I started my first degree with a master's degree in counseling, and you know, we learned about eight theories, evidence based treatment was not a thing, we hardly learned, we didn't learn about the brain and my grad program whatsoever. We even have a psycho forum class, you know, it was pretty much pick a theory that you like, learn it, you know, and when you graduated, you knew you'd go to all the conferences on this and you're done. You felt competent. We didn't have imposter syndrome back then. I mean, it was really different. And when I went to my MFT doctoral program, you know, again, it was about eight theories, I had to learn they overlap a lot with the counseling ones, pick one, get good at it, you know, and, you know, enjoy your career. So that's pretty much what it was like when I started and so I just finished Writing a state of the art, you know, master's program and family therapy that, you know, meets the national COAMFTE standards that meets California licensing standards. And that meets the needs of the stakeholders, the employers in which is LA County Mental Health preseason. So I've made everyone really happy. And there are about 25 different theories, some traditional, some evidence based that my students are learning. And it is amazing because my students are exceptionally well trained, not just because occurred, but we have an amazing faculty, it's an amazing curriculum. And when they leave, they are so confused, they have imposter syndrome. They they don't know where to start, and they're totally lost. And I sit here and I watch this because I know what it was like, where I started and what that look like. And now I'm looking at where students are today. And it's this cannot continue. It's kind of where I'm at. It's it's really, it's this bizarre thing where in some ways students are getting more information than ever, but they feel less and less competent. So it's this weird paradox. The way we have just we've been doing what we've been doing for years, and we just keep adding on adding on adding on. But there's no synthesis, there's no integration. And it's overwhelming students, especially at the Masters level,
Curt Widhalm 06:22
Katie, and I talk about problems in therapist training and education, we have been for several years here. And I've heard forever back to when we were students about you know, therapists need more training. And I've never heard it kind of putting the terms that you are putting it in here now of maybe, we're throwing too much at people. And that's what's leading to a lot of this problem as it's developing. What is possible as far as fixing this direction that we're going like, what can actually be done? You're familiar with all of these standards, you have, you know, a million different bosses, maybe not directly, but a bunch of people's requirements that you have to be what is actually possible to kind of change the momentum to helping people feel more confident entering into our fields, while still being well educated.
Diane Gehart 07:20
And that is the $10 million dollar question, because what we have is we have, we have licensing boards. And I think our licensing process needs to be totally overhauled. It just so happens I'm in a position in my career where because I've been thinking about retiring, moving to another state, I have to take the national MFT exam. I'm taking it actually on July 21, this summer. And I ended up having to learn all about the national MFT exam, which has such ancient theories in it that like, they actually have been taking those theories out of my textbook, and I'm like, Oh, my God, because I'm running a class on laugh your way to licensure. And I have just been shocked and slightly horrified at how much old information like if they really want you to learn symbolic experience, because they're great questions. It's really easy to write, you know, exam questions around symbolic experience with doing that anymore. Just newsflash both. So it's like surreal. It is like this trip back into the past when you look at our licensing exams, and then you have, so they're one piece of the puzzle. And yeah, kind of like educational programs have to prepare folks for licensure, but we have very little influence on what is on that exam. So that's one huge, very difficult piece of the puzzle to influence, you know, and then we have the accreditation standards, which I mean, they move very slowly, we have more influence on that, because they they're more stakeholders are able to give their you know, two cents. But still, it's a very slow process to move that. And then quite frankly, I've discovered as someone who directs a marriage family therapy program, it's hard to get faculty who trained up, you know, when I tell people you need to teach these newer theories, I get this deer on the head, like, but I don't know that theory. And I'm like, well bring yourself up. And this is a whole new, you know, situation. So the problem is we have these huge systems that are very hard to shift and change, that are very rooted in the past. And they are not evolving at the rate that practitioners need to be evolving. So it's really a very difficult thing to do. And I'll tell you, I'll be I'll be honest, I don't feel like it's going to be my role in the world. I know that someone else fix those systems. I mean, my solution has been as I page this other course that I've created, that it's synthesis, I think the answer is going to be synthesis because if you remember back to some of your You know, grad studies courses are two reasons the EU and you're listening to this new theory new, like, a lot like XYZ theory, a lot like, you know that that the theory will be honest to god truth is, and I'm going to say like it is yes, there's a lot more overlap than distinction between these theories. And we have to start boiling down the core concepts in the basic brain works very simple methods that are, it's, it's not even integration. I mean, we're past integration that was a couple decades ago, this is synthesis, we have to really extract from what we the knowledge base that we have, and put it into a very simple framework that a human being can use, because what we have now is almost impossible, the way we train our students and license people to the way they're supposed to be updating themselves. It's not, the pieces don't fit together nicely, we're gonna we have to synthesize this knowledge base in a much more coherent way.
Katie Vernoy 11:02
With this synthesize knowledge base, it seems like it would come down to very common interventions, I'm thinking kind of the kind of the common elements of therapy, and to me, it seems like that would be very helpful. And it would also mean that folks would then have to study differently for these licensing exams. Because we're very attached to these intricate theories with the titles that they have for the same thing, you know, they've renamed it save slightly tweaked it. And so to me, it seems like there would be a lot of pushback. So for the therapist, you're describing something that is very empowering, I learned what therapy is and what we commonly see as effective. And what we see on the educational side is bureaucracy and ego and hubris, holding into these very distinct theories that, you know, it just seems like well, I, you know, to keep my job I have to publish. And so now I'm going to create a theory. And now everybody's going to have to learn this theory. And I'm now committed to this theory, and I'm not going to let it go.
Diane Gehart 12:11
So, you know, I actually think there's a lot of different layers here. So I, I actually think I'm working right now on developing, I just call it therapy that works, because if you call it anything else, any theoretical term, we are so divisive. in this field, you're postmodern your system is or your, you know, your psychodynamic or your CBT. And that's, and then you're these little cancer all fighting with each other. And it's just like, it doesn't need to be like that I actually think you should be using every theory is, you know, what we're dealing with all of human suffering in this world, you know, and it is you need every bit of wisdom you can find. And so I think we've created a lot of artificial tensions and wars that are not actually helping us serve our clients, by, you know, dividing up into these little camps is kind of what it feels like to me. And, and so, you know, when I first started writing my textbooks, I was very deliberate in how I approached this because I wasn't a camp I really was, I'm, you know, in the postmodern world, that's, you know, kind of was my camp. And it was interesting, one of the parts of the postmodern world is this concept of appreciative inquiry, where you learn and use curiosity and really appreciating what's good about the others. And I very intentionally when I started writing, my textbook said, I am going to approach every single theory that I have, and I had biases, I absolutely did. With appreciative inquiry, somehow, these ideas were important enough to really stand out. And I'm going to figure out what it is about each single one, you know, and as I did that, I was really surprised, honestly, the how I found something really wise in each of these approaches over the years, and so on, begin to see a lot of these connections. And so I think, learning to appreciate those, but now we have so many, it's like you're lost, unless you're lucky like me, and you've had 30 years to slowly piece together the knowledge base of the field. For those who are coming into this. It's just one on all overwhelming, I think for everybody. So when it's, you know, I actually think we're at a place where we can, you know, create structures. It's more like a method where you take out even most of that theoretical language, because there actually is a skeleton underneath it all I can't quite describe but I think in a podcast, but there is a skeleton, I call it, it's like that you can begin to see. And every single theory kind of maps on top of this basic skeleton and when you approach it that way, you begin to see those connections. And so it's much easier to make sense of the many sources of wisdom and knowledge. We have in this field
Curt Widhalm 15:01
almost kind of common factors of building from there that there's many factors that we use, regardless of what we do. And the rest is kind of the seasonings on in the structure of a plate of food here. Looking at this from where we can come from kind of this basic place, you know, taking this from the idealistic, you know, and how should we be trained? Like, okay, that's gonna be, you know, decades in the making of getting a bunch of disagreeable people to agree on changing all of these systems. What can therapists do for themselves to not get sucked into all of those traps, and all of those arguments to follow a good individual training path that they can feel confident and not constantly be worried about? What I don't know, and falling into imposter syndrome?
Diane Gehart 15:59
Well, you know, I think, finding a very solid, broad method of working, that really serves your clients that really notice whether or not you're making a difference, like therapy should have results actually relatively quickly in treatment, you know, and so I think really focusing not just do like the theory, are you having a good time? Do you feel good about yourself? But like, are, are things changing for your clients, and to really focus on outcomes is one piece and then to, you know, really be thoughtful about what you get yourself trained in? And to learn to really be conscious about learning skill sets and making sure they work? Because the truth is, you know, looking at the common factors, right, you know, any therapy model out there just about can deliver decent outcomes. And the questions is, are you able to do that? And how do you put yourself in a position to do that well, and consistently.
Katie Vernoy 17:10
So there's an assessment piece, but this other angle that I'm looking at, because when we go to common factors, it seems like it's very, very clear, they're very broad, they're so broad that that I think that it's, you know, it's something that also can be a little bit confusing to just when it's so broad, right?
Diane Gehart 17:27
Yes, yeah, common factors is too broad to be useful in the room at this point in history.
Katie Vernoy 17:32
But when you were talking about the skeleton, and that all of these theories kind of fall on this same skeleton, and, and for me, and I guess this is just for my head, when I think about kind of things that are very systemic can also be impacting the skeleton. And so if we're looking at whether it's systemic bias or oppression, when we're looking at those types of things, I'm wondering if if, in creating the actual skeleton of what works and and separating out the language, if that's a way to decrease bias, or if it's already baked in? And if oppression is already baked? In?
Diane Gehart 18:08
Yes, yeah. I mean, in my in my system that I've been developing, therapy that works, I don't have a better name. Because whatever I come up with, I know someone's gonna hate it for some reason. But yeah, so I, you know, there's way to analyze what happens behaviorally, emotionally, cognitively, and then at the societal level. And so to put that piece in as the fourth kind of level when you whenever you're analyzing or assessing what's going on with a client, but is that kind of answering what your I think it is?
Katie Vernoy 18:37
I mean, I think for me, it's it's something where so much of our history as a profession has been guided by
Curt Widhalm 18:45
hierarchy, structural sort of differences.
Katie Vernoy 18:50
You can continue talking, Curt, I was agree.
Curt Widhalm 18:54
It's this fundamental shift of really empowering clients to be in control of some of this process to it's shifting that hierarchical power that, you know, we can spend, you know, hours and hours talking about the roles of transference and countertransference. And what's left unsaid and to boil it back to and you should totally trademark therapy that works. And then be argued with like the, you know, 3% of cases where it didn't. But it's embracing where mental health field has really common as far as who dictates when therapy works. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. We're awkwardly not stating a question. That's just more of Yes.
Diane Gehart 19:46
Yeah, and if you look at what really works, and there's a ton of research behind this is you have to work within the clients reality. It has to work for them. I mean, it does have to be the client. I talked to When I when I, when I teach this approach I talk about like entering the client's reality, it's like their holodeck, and you've got to go into their holodeck into their reality to understand what is going to work from where they're standing. It's one of the things I've been realizing is in this class that I'm teaching therapy that works. I'm like, if it's forcing me to identify what I actually do in the room, and I realized, what I've done is I literally turn theories inside out. And that I literally take this because the theories are written from the, like a therapist looking at a client, that's how the theories are written. But if you really want them to work, well, you have to take the theory and like flip it inside out. And you have to apply it from within the clients construction of the world is the client under see sees it, and then it works like magic. But if you're trying to it's like squinting, fitting for the square peg in a round hole, right, that's kind of what we've been doing. And if the client will go with our reality, that's great. But if they don't, which many of them don't, then it just worked so much smoother, if you can take the knowledge we have, and have it like, enter into the clients make sense within the clients world. And it's like, I can only describe it as like flipping it inside out.
Katie Vernoy 21:19
I think that's so important, because with a lot of theories, and maybe this is, you know, getting back into the awkward space, but it seems like a lot of theories assume we know. And there's that kind of paternalistic, we know what's best for the client. And what you're describing is really getting into the, to the space into the holodeck of the client, and really understanding from their perspective. But to do that, we have to come from a very humble and curious place, and be able to really see from their perspective, which requires so much sitting back and and active exploration versus doing interventions on clients.
Diane Gehart 22:01
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Doing interventions on clients is the least efficient way to go about this work. It just really is. I really believe, I guess what we're describing here is, you know, obviously, I'm trained, you know, in collaborative therapy, it's one of my specialty, and it is really still my home base. But it is so fascinating to me, if you just slow down like you described and become curious about, wow, your client makes sense of life interprets life, just asking those questions, having a client put that into words, because most of us don't put it into words in our own head, we're not aware of it. So someone asks us and we begin to like put all those pieces together. I really think over 80% of what I do is just that. And you know, there are other interventions that are important. You know, my favorite one to point out to everyone is the research is like exposure is the treatment for OCD folks. Like that's all that works, right. So there are places where you need to be much more intentional about that. But it is fascinating how just slowing down being curious, entering and really under as you come to understand how the client makes sense of their life. So many things just unravel and problems get resolved or shift in pretty magical ways. So that the work of the end is like sweeping up, you know, a little bit of math on the floor, and what it feels like it's the leftovers, but it's so clear what you need to do.
Curt Widhalm 23:30
And a lot of this seems to be driven by the really siloed parts of our worlds, the researchers who, as Katie pointed out earlier, need to keep their jobs by publishing research and things get really boiled down there. And then the research has to inform the education so that the education is based on something and then students and new therapists get thrown out into the real world. And then they experience what you're talking about, which is like, Oh, that's only like 20% of what's actually going on in the room. Is there ways to make these parts of the field less siloed, to where the researchers actually know what it's like to sit across from people who are more complex than one diagnoses and who talk about things more than very specific symptoms of that diagnoses? To actually being able to see what the rest of complex human behavior is like.
Diane Gehart 24:30
Wow, I mean, unfortunately, as over the years I've been in the field, it's become more and more siloed in the beginning, in the beginning when I was really old. And the last century is my kids are like you were alive in the century. Yeah, I was alive. Yep.
Curt Widhalm 24:46
Yep. Yep. I had a client recently as a middle schooler, who referred to the 90s as the late 1900s. And I was
Katie Vernoy 24:58
Oh dear,
Diane Gehart 24:59
yeah. Yeah. So in the last century, it was possible to be a scholar practitioner, like it was this hyphenated thing. It was foundational, especially for doctoral programs as the model, they were all supposed to be teaching us Lalalalala. But in the last 1020 years, we really said that's not possible anymore. Because if you're going to do a clinical trial, ie the skill set it takes to run a clinical trial, you know, which is what samsa and NIH and that's like the gold standard to do that is a full time job. And that skill set is so different and is so advanced, if they don't have time to be a practitioner, and to do quality research in the 21st century, what's expected and so it's pulling us further and further apart actually is, is kind of where we're going. Now, I do think research really has moved the food field forward in important ways. And we really need to stay connected with the evidence base, like when I went to school, it was really considered ethical. And I guess Kurt can correct me if I'm wrong on this, it ethical to use whatever theory you thought would be great, or whatever your theory of choice was to breed OCD, I don't think that's ethical anymore, because the research is so clear about what works and what doesn't. And so, so that really puts us in, I think, in a somewhat difficult, you know, spot with that sort of thing. And so, again, we have to take all of that knowledge, kind of getting back to your question, Kurt is in Reese, as well as a theory need to be synthesized, the research needs to be synthesized. And it really can be it really, it really can be I do believe I have taken a whole DSM. I've created this table, I don't know, it's probably six, eight pages long. But and I have synthesize what the research says works for each of the different diagnoses. I mean, this should be widely available. I know I'm going to work on a book. But still, I mean, we we need to get boiled down to relatively simple, you know, structures and information. And so we have to the synthesis of research, the synthesis of our theories, I also think a huge missing gaping hole in the whole field of psychotherapy is there's a lot of motivational research on like how to just set a goal and achieve it, which we don't even have trickling into our programs, you know, or flowing into the work that we do, which is another very important actually stream of knowledge that I think we need more of in our field.
Curt Widhalm 27:39
And to answer the ethics question that you're asking here is parts of the ethics that most people don't even bother to read is the preambles, which is basically like we do our things based on science. And it's being able to distill and synthesize what the science is that, again, speaks back to what you were talking about earlier, of not overwhelming people and being able to help people in a competency based way of being able to take this education and be able to implement it with people, as clients as explorers as being able to have those timely interventions rather than just kind of like coming in overwhelmed feeling like I have to do something that needs to be justified in this note. And so I'm going to throw an intervention whether or not it fits and hope that nobody audit says,
Diane Gehart 28:41
Yeah, that is not that's not a good place for us to be, I think, as a profession, I'd say we too.
Katie Vernoy 28:49
Yeah, when I'm listening to this, I like the idea of distilling things down to synthesizing them into competency based steps, those types of things. I also recognize that there's an evidence base that we want to pay attention to, I guess the the place I get held up a little bit, and this is something where I think there's a an important tension, I think it's gone too far, one direction, and I probably was being educated in a similar time where there was a theories. And so it seems very doable to me. And I'm not, I'm not facing the 20 theories, right. So I fully recognize my bias. But there is an importance for therapists to also make some of the decisions on their own. And and I worry that if we distill these things down too far, that therapists will be doing things they don't necessarily have the background with the evidence base and why they're doing what they're doing. And that, to me, potentially, is problematic if the the research base has its own issues, right. I mean, I don't know if I'm asking an intelligent question here. But I think when we're when we're trying to simplify something down to teach people how to do a thing. I think there still is value and Having an understanding of the theoretical underpinnings and the the broad complexity of what's behind it all? And so how do I guess I guess the question is, how do you hold that tension? If obsoleting this new this Yeah, education that doesn't seem to exist? Yes.
Diane Gehart 30:16
Well, you know, I would say that I'm with you on that, because I'm a total theory nerd. And I can read theory forever. And I love theory. And so and I do think knowing, you know, reading, I encourage when people are saying, My, my license, or course I said, If you have time, I want you to I give them a reading list of like, 10 bucks. I'm like, No, the voices know that. Understand that. So I definitely think understanding the philosophy, but I think, and especially at the coral level, yes, we can throw them 20 theories, I'm good with that. They've got whatever 120 units, and they need to know the difference between Milan systemic strategic and MRI. But at the Masters level, you know, understanding strategic structural hyphenated, you know, together, as one basic theory is going in, you can, you know, and to understand those two, really, most people in practice, use both of them together, you know, but on the licensing exam, because it's easier to write questions, we have people like memorizing and these tiny little boxes. And so we need to find, like a happy middle ground, because yes, you'll, you'll always be reading lots of theory in this field, there's no way to get I don't think, in my opinion, and you should be reading lots of research, too. But it's creating structures, that it's where it's humanly possible for people to take in that information. It's almost it's ironic that at a time in history, where everyone's attention span is shorter, and shorter, and smaller and smaller, we are throwing more and more and more at people. And it none of it sticking in a meaningful way. And so we have to find, I think we really need to start distinguishing between the master's and doctoral level of training, and what is learned at each level. But, you know, I, here I am with 30 years of experience in training, and I have been training trainers for like, 20 years, right. And I'm looking at what is on the list of to know, for the licensing exam, which you know, you do that early in your career, and you kind of forget about it, but having to go back and do it has been so educational. I'm like, this is insane. This is I look at the knowledge statement. And I'm like, This isn't like humanly possible. This is awful. And I am even telling some of my students like 10% of the stuff like you would have to study so many hours to be able to analyze any research study they possibly could put in front of you. It's not worth it missed those, you just need to get a 70%. Like, don't even worry about it. So we it's like it's like throwing we're throwing everything, you know, at these poor folks taking exams and expecting them to memorize far more than is we know, based on our new neurobiology is really reasonable to be expecting.
Curt Widhalm 32:54
Where can people practically go from here, when it comes to getting better and working with our clients?
Diane Gehart 33:02
Well, I do think you need to really think about and you know, your individual journey as a clinician and getting to how you want to move forward, because there are options, there are different options. But in general, I think, learning one really solid theory, well, that really makes sense. And that you can actually get training in you know, I talked to some people who claim that there's a therapist, I'm like, which could you training, and they're like, Oh, I read some books, I'm like, that that's not training folks. You need to really invest in a program that will be, you know, intense in depth where you learn some skills. And so there are definitely a number of them out there. But I think really making sure and just focusing on that not getting distracted by everyone else telling you what else you should be doing or my bet what might be better, like pick one stick with it, do it well master that and look for results.
Katie Vernoy 34:01
So there's a lot that you were talking about that was either in development or that you've already created and and so I'm sure that people would want to get in touch with you and talk through these things with you. So where can people find you?
Diane Gehart 34:15
Well, I have started what I call the Institute for therapy that works and so you can find it at therapythatworksInstitute.com or Dianegehart.com, I do have a course you know where I actually teach this method, it's the best word I can come up with the moment for trying to really find a way of working that synthesizes uses everything you know, you can pick whatever other theories you want to use, but to really create a holistic structure from beginning to end that really grounds folks and what they're doing so I'm very excited about that. And it's funny because that's the I have one side of this one project that's synthesizing every now all the knowledge and it's really funny. On the other hand, I do have this laugh, your way to license your course that is going to teach you all the different silos that you need to know. And it's a very kind of bizarre, actually as the instructor of both courses. One is how many little teeny tiny theories Can I teach you? And then where's the master theory? So, I offer both options.
Curt Widhalm 35:14
We will include links to those in our show notes. You can find those at MTSGpodcast.com. And you can check out the therapy reimagined conference where Dr. Gehart will be helping us out and talking about the future of therapy there. You can find out more information about that and all the latest up to date news at therapyreimaginedconference.com or follow us on our social media. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and Dr. Diane Gehart.
Katie Vernoy 35:45
Thanks again to our sponsor, The Healthcasters
Curt Widhalm 35:48
I wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in The Healthcasters podcasting course it includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guests templates to let guests know that podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes a monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more about The Healthcasters, it's selling the couch comm join The Healthcasters
Katie Vernoy 36:38
Enter the promo code therapyreimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.
Curt Widhalm 36:48
Thank you for listening to the modern therapists Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Psychiatric Crises in the Emergency Room Continuing our series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America. An interview with Kesy Yoon, LMHC and James McMahill, LMFT, two Modern Therapists with work experience in the United States hospital mental health system. Curt and Katie talk with Kesy and James about their perspective on the emergency room as an entry point (and revolving door) for mental health treatment. We look at the bureaucracy, the funding issues, and the difficulty in providing adequate care in these settings. We also discuss the ideal of a psychiatric ER, to improve mental health treatment for those in crisis.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kesy Yoon, LMHC and James McMahill, LMFT Kesy Yoon, LMHC: As a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC), I am dedicated to helping my clients understand who they are and how they fit into the world around them. Over the past six years, I have worked in a variety of mental health settings with individuals from all walks of life. Currently, I work with clients struggling with anxiety, perfectionism, trauma, and major life transitions. Over the course of my career, I have developed a specialty in working with the Asian American Pacific Islander (AAPI) 1st generation population. My work in this area is informed by my own personal experience with navigating the differences between an American upbringing and traditional Asian values. I enjoy working with AAPI clients to identify solutions to improve quality of life while honoring important cultural values and needs. Therapy is dynamic and my style is centered upon empowerment and hope. I show up as a human first, therapist second. As a counselor, I believe that every individual is a unique and complicated being; therefore, I do not have one uniform approach. I draw inspiration from several evidence-based modalities such as EMDR, Solution Focused Therapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I am also trained in the EMDR modality and I am currently in the process of EMDR Certification.
James McMahill, LMFT: I am an LMFT in CA and MN specializing in crisis care for those struggling with psychosis, severe depression, PTSD and suicidality. The majority of my clinical experience has been in crisis work and includes all ages, from children and adolescents in inpatient, TAY and adults in county outpatient clinics, and as a member of a Geri Psyche urgent response team. While in San Diego, I was the Program Director for Heartland Wellness Recovery Center, a county outpatient program serving SPMI clients in East County, San Diego. Currently, I am a team member for a CRT (Crisis Response Team) in Carver County, MN, and spend much of my clinical time in Emergency Rooms or responding to community or Law Enforcement mental health crises. I may also be commonly found co moderating Therapists in Private Practice (TIPP) on Facebook, with my wife Namrata.
In this episode we talk about: * Continuing our special series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America * How emergency rooms become a part of the mental health system * The role of emergency rooms as the first door for folks with a mental health crisis * It can be a catchall and revolving door for some with longer term mental health concerns * The challenges and overwhelm when someone comes into the ER * The goals that emergency rooms can have when someone comes in with a psychiatric crisis * The differences in ERs (whether they have psychiatric facilities or whether they transfer to other facilities) * The challenges in placing clients in psychiatric inpatient care * The revolving door – developing relationships and losing hope * Potential legislation changes that could increase time for care * Conflicting goals at different levels of the hospital and the hot potato syndrome * Training of the emergency room staff, medical staff, law enforcement, fire services * The criminogenic interpretation of behavior that can hinder law enforcement and seeing a patient as someone needing help * The importance of patience in managing psychiatric crises * Interacting with Law Enforcement in these situations * Responses to the “mental health” being touted as the solution for mass shootings * Challenges with reimbursement and insurance coverage * Some solutions for smoother processes during psychiatric emergencies, ideas for ideal planning and training
Our Generous Sponsor: The Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live. We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker. This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts. This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin. You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
RAND Report: How to Transform the US Mental Health System
Los Angeles Times Op-Ed: Our mental health laws are failing
Laura’s Law
LPS: Lanterman-Petris-Short Law
Relevant Episodes:
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Serious Mental Illness and Homelessness
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Join us for Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
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Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcripts (autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Healthcasters.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
The health casters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about the health casters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Listen at the end of the episode for more information about healthcasters.
Announcer 00:29
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:45
Welcome back modern therapists This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is part three of our special series fixing mental health care in America. And if you have not yet listened to parts one and two, please go back and listen to those and we'll include links to those in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com. When we look at mental health care in America, part of what Katie and I were looking at is the various ways that people needing mental health services interact with all the various systems and today's episode we're focusing on psychiatric emergencies and the ways that clients, patients, people in general in psychiatric emergency situations and up in the emergency room. And so our guest today, once again, interviewed separately spliced together so our guests are James with me Hill, who works in Minnesota and Casey Yoon, who formerly worked in an emergency room in Los Angeles, California. We are joined by James McMahill, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.
James McMahill 02:04
Currently I'm in Crisis Response Team in Carver county in Minnesota, what's up Western suburb just right outside of the Twin Cities,
Katie Vernoy 02:11
how do emergency rooms end up being a part of the mental health system
James McMahill 02:17
I have such as arranged experience from having conversations like these about emergency rooms or about law enforcement, you know, because each system is such a fingerprint from one another one er is so distinctly different from another er my experience when I was a director of an outpatient program in San Diego is so different from what I experienced on a day to day basis in the Midwest, for the most part of what I experienced as a clinician, it is a it's essentially a holding place for someone who has usually come in for a medical issue. And then is witnessed by the attending MD or nurse to also be endorsing an issue that's synonymous with a mental health concern. And in the two ers in particular that I work with, they have become so used to referring out to the crisis team that even if someone is coming in and stating that they're experiencing depression or anxiety in any way, generally will lead to a mental health assessment by the crisis team. Once that's completed, and we've made a recommendation, then the ER becomes much more of a complicated place, because then they're kind of, particularly if we're recommending an inpatient like treatment program, then the client is just kind of hanging out we are until we are able to secure a program for their ongoing mental health care. And so there's this kind of tension following a disposition between the crisis teams and other hospitals who have short term residential or short term behavioral health units, and the two ers that we serve and who do not have behavioral health units in trying to get them to an appropriate level of care kind of as soon as possible. Because the ER is always concerned about how many beds are available, who's coming in what the tenor and the mood of the unit is. And so it's kind of a holding place for that moment.
Curt Widhalm 04:12
We're also joined by Kesy Yoon lpcc, talking about some of the experiences of working in emergency departments when it comes to mental health. So thank you very much for joining us and spending some time tell us how mergency rooms work as part of the mental health system.
Kesy Yoon 04:30
My experience, the emergency room is often the first kind of net or door into a line of resources for mental health in the community. It can be kind of the first step that patients and their families or people take when someone's having a mental health crisis. But on the other hand, I've also seen the ER function as a dead catch all net for individuals whom the system doesn't know what to do with. And so sometimes it's the first door that First kind of introduction to mental health and resources. But then it also becomes kind of this catch all, though, the person that's in transition or can't utilize their resources or in between resources, they also begin to use the emergency room as well.
Curt Widhalm 05:16
So what do you see when it comes to? There's somebody brought in by law enforcement, it's typically under a 5150 type situation. Walk me through what that might look like, if we were observing this from somebody entering the door, working through the emergency department staffing, tell the psych staff gets there. What is this experience like for somebody going through this kind of a crisis?
Kesy Yoon 05:43
That's a great question. I have often wondered that how alarming it must be depending on what symptoms have been presented. But there was a lot of noise and a lot of chaos when you come into the ER, depending on the day, but most of the time, that's what's going on. So you're coming in, usually, with law enforcement or fire, you're coming to the double doors, you're not coming to the waiting room, you're not being triage the traditional way. You're coming in, and everyone's looking at you, right, because the tension is shifting. It's just busy. And on top of that, you know, you're getting rushed through triage. And I think things are happening so fast. And I've often wondered how it must feel to be someone who's experiencing a mental health crises, to then be to be in a situation, it's difficult for a person who's not experiencing a mental health crisis.
Katie Vernoy 06:31
I was thinking that exactly. And even if somebody is coming in with some sort of an injury or a severe illness, they might also be having a mental health crisis as well. But when the primary symptoms are psychosis, or suicidality, or homicide, ality, like, it seems like it would be hugely disorienting,
Kesy Yoon 06:49
yes. And then your, your triage, you're put into a bed, and they tell you a bunch of commands, you know, change into a gown, they go for shoes, your stuff is taken away, and then you're maybe left alone. And then the doctor takes however much time to come see you. They're asking you a bunch of questions. And then sometimes you might get visited by a social worker, if you're lucky, you'll get a kind nurse who has some idea of what you're going through. And then after all of that, all the questions, all the stuff, all your stuff has been taken away, you're essentially told that you're on this 5150 dennis is quiet, you know, the only people that come in to check in US shift change. If you're in restraints, maybe someone comes every 15 minutes to check on you, and then kneels and then you're just waiting, like, after all of that barrage of communication, then it's just quiet for however, the rest of the time you're in the ER.
Katie Vernoy 07:43
So that sounds really overwhelming. I could especially imagine for folks who are having psychosis or other psychotic symptoms, like it would just seem like, especially I just your stuff getting taken, you know, like, Yeah, wow, you know, just such a, I don't even though the right word, just very evolved a very vulnerable time. Right. You're, you're rushed in, you've got all this stuff happening. What is the goal? I mean, obviously, there's an assessment to get to the 5050. But what's the stated goal for the next 72 hours? For these folks?
Kesy Yoon 08:19
I think it depends on the hospital. So if you're a designated LPS facility, which means essentially, you have a locked inpatient unit, your goal is to wait until a bed becomes available, if you meet the criteria, which is you know, this whole other broad maze of things. If you're not at an LPs designated hospital that hasn't locked psychiatric unit, then you're waiting to be transferred. And even those kind of progress updates are very few and far between. But I just wonder about that, too. Right? You come in or your stuff is taken, you're told that you're waiting for a bed somewhere else? I mean, what if you have no idea where you even are, right? You wandered somewhere in a psychotic, just mess, and then now you're kind of coming to and then they're telling you Oh, we're going to ship you to some hospital that's 40 miles away, you don't know anyone. So just wait for that you can deal with
Curt Widhalm 09:10
on this piece about trying to get people placed when somebody has entered into an emergency room. There's a whole bunch of different departments who are either responding on the emergency side waiting for psychiatric to come in? What's the turnaround to getting somebody into one of these programs that you're talking about?
James McMahill 09:30
I mean, that really waxes and wanes? It depends on kind of that bell curve of utilization. You know, usually as you approach the weekend, the ability to get someone into a short term bhcu goes, maybe it goes way, way down, it's a lot more difficult. So it really just depends on what's going on out in the system. You know, we have a database that shows all the available hospitals, all the available programs and all of the available beds. And so once we've made that determination, a recommendation for an inpatient program and the attending physician agrees with that decision. Then it still rests on the crisis team to do quote unquote, a bed search, which is to page the different programs within the region to try to find someone availability, we will do our behavioral health assessment in that moment. And until we get that completed in a way that's representative about what's going on with the client and his best way as possible, the clients just going to be kind of hanging out there in the ER, and then we make that presentation of the behavioral health assessment, to the different programs to review, then it is completely up to the whims in the mood of the different behavioral health units that we are sending that packet to for review, to determine whether or not facing that that client would be a good fit, or not a good fit. And so there's this odd kind of back and forth between, oh, my goodness, you know, this person has got a lot of severe issues versus and this isn't as big of a problem for me as maybe some of the other clinicians have, do I try to write this in a scalable way? So we don't get the person who's reviewing the client to be like, no, we're not, we're not going to be taken someone who's physically aggressive and struggling with schizophrenia, or any kind of psychosis. So it is really difficult to kind of find that balance between Okay, we've we've addressed the emergency situation, we've got backing by the attending physician. And now our job is essentially to find a place that will accept that client. And that's completely based upon our write up, it's based upon our ability to communicate with the behavioral health unit in a friendly and charismatic way to kind of get them in the mood to like to, to accept the client, and also just what the complications of the system are at that time.
Katie Vernoy 11:46
What has been your experience with the kind of revolving door I think all of us have kind of heard about the ER being used, both for medical, but it also sounds like mental health crises, like that's where care happens. You know, the people just that revolving door, this is the catch all the lending? Yeah. For folks. What has been your experience of that? What does that actually look like?
Kesy Yoon 12:06
I think it depends on the relationship with the client has with the staff, to be honest, you know, I think there's some clients who utilize the revolving door of the ER, and it's almost like, it's a homecoming every month, like, oh, they're back. Like, they know the system, right? That's the kind of client that's not going to complain, they're gonna give up their possessions willingly, they'll do all the labs, they get it, you know, but some clients are more difficult, more aggressive. And it just, it almost becomes not this mentality of Oh, we can treat them like crap, because they they come here all the time, you know, versus the kind of clown comes in, and they get treated a little bit better, because they might treat the staff better. For me, it's difficult because it almost compels this sense of defeat, like, they're back again, I thought they got connected with services. So I'm torn. There's some clients where I did, it's almost like you don't mind when they come back, because they know how to operate and you almost enjoy seeing them and catching up with them, right. But there's also a large majority where it's difficult, and it's difficult not to become resentful and think, Oh, well, this patient's just abusing the system and abusing our resources. It's not that you don't want to help. But I think when certain clients come in every month, you assume that they either don't want the help, or yet you assume they don't want the hope. And so you don't advocate for them, really, you're just trying to, you're waiting for them also to get transferred upstairs, because you just think to yourself, oh, you'll be back anyways, you're not really going to change, you're not really going to get help or seek treatment.
James McMahill 13:42
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's a much larger issue, or at least it was for me in Southern California than it is in Minnesota. It really impacts those who are unable to advocate for themselves who are homeless, who are untreated, in a much different way than it does the western suburbs of Minnesota, there isn't a ton of homelessness in the suburbs of Minnesota, the response of those who would be picking folks up and doing emergency transports, for example. It's just a lot different depending on what kind of er system that you're working with. So when I was in San Diego, it was a much bigger issue. We had folks who would be picked up by perks or who would be picked up by law enforcement on a weekly basis to the point where they would become regulars in the ER and regulars in the short term, bH USD in the area. And that in itself also creates kind of this interesting relationship because when when people become known in ers and their high acuity, but also like presenting with the high degree of affability there's almost a lower bar for those folks to be admitted into the ER and there's this kind of friendship relationship. Oh, so and so was here again, come on in Yeah, don't worry about it get up all taken care of. And yet there's nothing after that, really, for those folks who unpaired to long term services, regardless if that's because just voluntarily they feel better once they get out of the ER, and they've had their immediate needs met, and they don't want to engage in any kind of outpatient programming or act level programming. And so I know that there's a lot of discussion, a lot of work going on right now with quote, unquote, involuntary outpatient programs or mandated outpatient programs, particularly in Southern California. I don't see that as much in Minnesota, as I did in Southern California.
Curt Widhalm 15:38
In an earlier part of this series, Senator Henry stern was talking about expanding the 50 to 50 part of the law and being able to hold some of these clients longer and beyond freedom and freedom of being able to essentially add a week a couple of weeks that would have assuming under his system would be reimbursed for the hospital. With more time and some of this treatment, do you think that that would help to alleviate some of the revolving door aspects that we see that if so much of this priority seems to be patch them up and ship them off? Right, right. What is treatment in these situations, some of these repeat customers that you've seen, just in some of your experience? Is there just that little bit more of stability that would alter their lives?
Kesy Yoon 16:32
Yeah, I think the time, I definitely think it would help with stability and stabilizing the symptoms, or maybe just getting the right mix of medications for certain patients. And then they could also be watching monitor, see if they have side effects. I think the other part too, is that it gives a chance for the case manager or the discharge planner, to try and work out Bible placement for some of these folks, you know, I think it's difficult to try to find someone a place to live, if they're only in the hospital for let's just say 72 hour whole three days to to have them interviewed assessed by someone from a home and then for them to be accepted. Yes, I know, it's there waiting, essentially, in the inpatient unit. But at least they have some time, you know, it's not so hurried, and the case manager can really work on, let's find his personal home that they're not going to get kicked out of, or that we can hopefully pay for rent for a little bit longer than a week or so.
Curt Widhalm 17:29
There can be a bunch of different goals, depending on who's working within the mental health system, you kind of have a hot potato syndrome of this particular client is too difficult where for estimate our program or funding goals, this can happen between administration and treatment. How do you in your experience, how have you seen this kind of stuff played out?
James McMahill 17:55
It's a constant battle against the idea of Yes, I see that they need help. But no, this isn't the appropriate place for them to get that. And so you see that across modalities, you see that across presentations, you see that across programs, who have identified as having a specific scope. I know I experienced that on a daily basis as a administrator of an outpatient program when dealing with someone who, at the time we were wrangling with the idea of is this person substance primary, or is this person mental health primary? And so there was often kind of that passing back and forth between programs of Yes, I understand. But that person doesn't feel appropriate to our program. From an emergency room standpoint, some similar things go on, but it's much more about the folks who are providing services in that moment, the nurses, the doctors, the the aides, the watchers, who are concerned with what someone who is potentially coming to their bhcu, or how that person who will disrupt their familiar or how that person will disrupt their system. And so the folks who are high acuity, the folks who are really struggling, and really the most vulnerable are those who end up spending the most time in the least therapeutic of spaces. Because we often have such a hard time finding them, or finding a program was like, Yeah, absolutely. We are well equipped to deal with that. And we can absolutely provide them with services. I mean, I don't get that response. When I'm when I'm letting folks know that person is really struggling. They, they've been sober from methamphetamine after a year on and they're struggling hallucinations and paranoia and school aggression. Like I know immediately, that I'm more than likely going to have a very difficult time finding that person services and meanwhile, they're languishing in the ER in a in a box room. And so that's really the tension. That's where the hot potato for me lies in the ER of who is willing to accept this person and serve this person and give them the help they need.
Curt Widhalm 20:00
So when you're talking about this cross training between emergency staff and psych staff, and part of this even gets into the training of the people who are bringing people in, like law enforcement or ambulance, paramedic type services, what kinds of training inadequacies from the sake perspective? Are you hoping that some of these other services would be able to have or what do you see as deficits that they have when they are working with patients who are coming in under these kinds of circumstances?
Kesy Yoon 20:31
I saw that quite a lot. Unfortunately. You know, I think it's one of those things where again, it's it's very much about how do we not take responsibility for this person, this human being that we're bringing into the emergency room for law enforcement, if they're not criminal enough, or if it's not just if it doesn't fit into the standard or protocol for them to take them into their custody, they got to bring them into the ER. And then for fire, I mean, fire is even more broad. Right. So the Natalie's I saw a lot. We're just a very loose interpretation of LPs, and that's the lanterman Petris short, I always forget the what it stands for, but just very loose interpretation of what it means to be danger to yourself or danger, others gravely disabled, that's a, I mean, you can take all kinds of license with that, right. And I think with fire, it was also difficult, because I think oftentimes, the intention is good, like, if we give them to an ER, then they're going to get set up, they'll at least have a bed, they'll have some meals, and then the ER will take care of it. But, you know, there were so many times, even with fire, where even just bringing someone's wheelchair, that will be forgotten. I don't know if that's necessarily a deficiency in training, but the ER doesn't have an abundance of wheelchairs at them they could give to this patient once they're discharged. Right? So I think, even things like that, how do we see a patient as a whole person who has a life outside of the ER? And yes, who may need help. But that doesn't necessarily mean the right should be taken away? And then they're just left on the street, essentially, afterwards?
Katie Vernoy 22:09
How does the lack of substantial Mental Health Training by law enforcement, fire etc. So the the lack of knowledge and training for the folks that typically work with you, how does that affect clients?
James McMahill 22:24
I alluded to that image of impatience. And I think that that is what occurs the most when I'm dealing with law enforcement or emergency responders who are untrained in issues of mental health, because part of what law enforcement goes through on a daily basis is to address a criminal genic narrative, right. And it's really easy to get lost in the the who, what, where when of that narrative. And so I often see on train law enforcement trying to apply that same structure to a mental health emergency. And that doesn't mix well with someone who's having an incongruent, internalized process to what it is that they're also trying to communicate their words or with their actions. And so when that messaging is mixed, or is affected or impacted by what experiences someone's going through, there's that impatience and there's that tension. And there's a dismissal that says, Well, what you're talking about is not a big deal, right? Or there's that immediate kind of sense of, we've got bigger fish to fry. And so Meanwhile, I am seeing someone who is potentially responding to stimuli, who is exhibiting severe negative symptoms who might be having a dissociative event because of the trauma history. And it's so it's difficult to have to have a conversation with someone who hasn't had training in that regard. Like, hey, there's more going on here, than what's on the surface. And I think we need to kind of slow the pace down and really explore what it is that's going on. And so it's that time and impatience thing that really, I think creates a rift between the practitioners who are out there as first responders and law enforcement or fire who are out there trying to do the same thing.
Curt Widhalm 24:11
So not only is there needs differences, but to this bottleneck that you're talking about. It's there's policy implications into creating this bottleneck and California where Katie and I are a lot more familiar with things. You bring up George Floyd, you're talking about this much more intertwined relationship between law enforcement and mental health where you're practicing now, with the current environment, the current changes, the defunding the police sort of discussions, how do you see that being implemented with the kinds of systems that you're interacting with now and is there really as much of a push for that where you're working compared to some of the experiences that we're seeing here? California.
James McMahill 25:01
I was stunned at the difference in working with law enforcement in the suburbs of Minnesota. As I was working in East County, San Diego, my outpatient clinic was in El Cajon, California. And to be frank, that police department was fairly well known for a quick temper and quick decisions and a lot of impatience. You know, even when they were coming into the clinic on those rare occasions that we did need to call law enforcement and perked was not available. I had some really poor experiences with law enforcement. And so I don't know what the current climate is back in Southern California. But you know, when I came here, and I don't know whether or not this has been a change due to what happened in Minneapolis, but I started a couple of months before the George florid murder. And since then there has been kind of a combination of things is one, law enforcement. And again, depending on what officer you're dealing with, depending on what deputy you're dealing with, or Sheriff you're dealing with Sergeant you're dealing with, and, and depending on what their mood or what their experiences it has been on that day. But overall, the amount of collaboration and the amount of requests for me to come out and participate in a law enforcement event with someone that's struggling with mental health is way above what I experienced in Southern California, we're getting calls quite often to come out. And you know, all arrive on scene and and the the officers deputies will kind of tell me what the situation is. And they're always kind of waiting to see whether or not this is something that I can take care of on my own and give them the clear or whether or not I will stick around because there's concerns about violence. But there is a surprising level of patience that I'm seeing in dealing with law enforcement in Minnesota. And for me that patience has always been the most crucial element in those those crisis bubbles, right? Because if you have an increased amount of tension with law enforcement, and you can feel the resentment about having to be there in that moment, it makes for a really difficult situation. And it's very rarely results in a positive outcome for the client or positive outcome for the therapist, or for law enforcement. But there have been a couple of episodes here where where law enforcement was willing to work for hours with a client's trying to figure out levels of safety trying to figure out levels of cooperation. And I've yet to have a situation devolve into something worse than it was when I had arrived. You know, I've I've had positive outcomes with law enforcement in in Minnesota. Now. There's a lot of problems here. That is not to say that that's not the case. Obviously, that's the case. I mean, so far in my personal experience, of working with law enforcement, as it pertains to them wanting us to join and potentially give them space to remove themselves from a mental health situation. I've had pretty positive experiences. Now whether or not that's driven by altruism or driven by their desire to depart.
Katie Vernoy 28:13
There's a number of times, especially if there's mass shootings or other things, whether it's this public outcry for more funding for mental health programs. Sure. And it's usually during some sort of a tragedy. What are your thoughts on those, those outcries?
James McMahill 28:30
You know, usually, the expectations for me in those times is to fully understand that in that, in that month in that bubble, whatever that is, is that there's going to be the least amount of potential progress on actual mental health change than any other time, because it is used as such a such a red herring argument by folks who are looking for a distraction away from something but they don't want to talk about someone, you know, if someone wants to make sure that they don't have to talk about gun control, they'll say this isn't a gun issue. This is a mental health issue, and yet have very little desire to actually change anything within the mental health world. And then on the flip side of that, you have folks who may actually care about there being fundamental changes in mental health. But there needs to be this prioritization to having a conversation about gun control. And so they're kind of stuck in this space of saying, Well, yes, I mean, we should talk about mental health. But let's not get away from the issue that that dude in 30 seconds just mowed down 20 people with an assault rifle. And so I always cringe in that moment, because I know that there's going to be the least amount of productive conversation about mental health, as of any time outside of that window of a tragedy like that.
Curt Widhalm 29:50
Part of the administration process is around this LPs designation of hospitals and you've had an experience For a hospital kind of walk this line that contributes to some of this placement process, especially for longer term treatment, from your perspective of working in these kinds of departments, there's some of these admin kind of decisions that then end up affecting even some of these clients ability to reliably even have the emergency room be part of their safety plan. Give us a little peek behind the scenes, as far as what you've seen is some of these kinds of policy level decisions that affects even just the accessibility of care for people going through situations where they need to end up in the emergency room for psychiatric reasons.
Kesy Yoon 30:44
I wish I could be a fly on the wall and those meetings. In my experience, the first three years I worked in the ER, we worked with an inpatient unit that was opiates as needed, so it was locked. So if a patient did come in on a hold, there was almost an immediate transfer, or at least pending bed placement upstairs. So they had somewhere where they could really be stabilized and treated by psychiatric staff. Somewhere in between that time, I'm not quite sure all i knows there were very many audits, because when your LPs, Department of Mental Health, obviously there, they want to make sure things are running, they want to keep people accountable. But it would be it seemed like a very big burden of responsibility on the psychiatric staff. I felt like it was every quarter there the audited because we were designated. There was that reason, there was also a higher number of patients with admin days when we were locked, because we're waiting for higher levels of placement. And afterwards, we decided to forego the placement, the LPS designation, and we became a strictly volunteer voluntary psychiatric hospital, we still had beds, but we could no longer take patients that were on 5150 holds unless psychiatrists came to the ER, discharged the hole and then had the patient sign voluntary. And I think that made it it's hard to say because then at that point that the 5050 patients were either wait, they waited the 72 hours, er, and then they just got discharged with some paperwork, or we transfer them to a locked unit, where I don't know how long they would stay there. But it did become difficult because it's almost, it almost feels as though there's very little you can do at that point. If someone comes in, you either transfer them or you wait, and then you discharge them or they go upstairs, you almost want them to sign voluntarily. But sometimes if they don't have the cognitive abilities to understand what's going on, or they're in such a state where they can't sign voluntarily, then you're just either again, waiting it out or waiting to transfer them, which can be difficult.
Katie Vernoy 32:48
So due to the bureaucratic, not, you know, nightmare, as well as it sounds like some of the really hard requirements, this smoother system, have they come into the ER we have a place for them became this weird convoluted, maybe we can take them but right somehow they have to not be eligible for 5150. Right?
Kesy Yoon 33:20
Yes, they can't be too acute. They have to be acute enough where there's criteria. So you know, they're suicidal enough or homicidal enough or psychotic enough, but not so much worse than their video on picking material because then we have to call a pet team from a different hospital,
Katie Vernoy 33:37
or then that's when they end up like 40 miles away
Kesy Yoon 33:40
not knowing anyone. Yes, yes, exactly. And the hospital pays for those contracts as well. with certain lock it once you're an unlocked hospital, you can pay for contracts with locked hospitals, so that they will then take your patients, especially the ones that are uninsured, you know, with County Medical.
Katie Vernoy 34:01
Yeah, it just seems like it becomes these silos again, when it was integrated in the hospital when you first started, right?
Curt Widhalm 34:11
This whole reimbursement aspects, like you're talking about medical or uninsured people, but even for some of the insured people, what are some of the difficulties as far as a program of getting reimbursed, that essentially even contributes to this whole fiasco?
Kesy Yoon 34:30
I think one of the difficulties I experienced in emergency room was the emergency room is technically outpatient. So then to have a psychiatrists, let's say from the inpatient unit, come in and do a consultation every 24 hours for a 72 hour hold, you know, depending on the psychiatry so it was difficult to get them to come down there because it's an outpatient service. And I want to say it gets a little confusing with billing and then how do they get reimbursed as an inpatient provider for an hour patient's service, which is also some of the barriers I experienced when we were in meetings about creating a psychiatric emergency room, because our hospital was in talks about that for a while. But I think again, there was just too much red tape, bureaucracy stuff. And a psychiatric emergency room is the fine line between outpatient and inpatient. Right, because they're not they're not they're getting treated, but they're not inpatient, or the waiting for a bed. And I think eventually administration didn't really want to go through with the idea.
Katie Vernoy 35:31
It's so interesting that er is are considered outpatient when right, especially recently, I'm assuming a lot of people were staying in beds for days. Absolutely, absolutely.
Curt Widhalm 35:43
It's almost like psychiatric illness shouldn't be treated entirely like a medical problem. Yeah, I want to go back to this question. You know, since we're talking about, you know, some of us idealize care, and we asked at the beginning, but even when it comes to the way that administration and reimbursement happens, or is there more that you think needs to go into this idealized care sort of answer?
Kesy Yoon 36:12
I think so. I mean, I don't, I don't even know what that would look like, sometimes I have these, you said, these daydreams, or maybe are, what it would look like if we just had psychiatric staff and there wasn't this revolving door. But it's such a, it's a part of a system that needs help, you know, the actual episode with the senator, and then the medical director of gmh was, I was so enlightened. And I was also given so much hope by that episode, because I was thinking, yes, this is like, it needs to be a system thing, the ers part of that system. I don't know, obviously, it could start with policy, but it's sometimes I feel like it's just a smaller part of a much larger problem.
Curt Widhalm 36:50
And so part of the system being that places like the ER, places like the prison, the jails that end up serving as de facto parts of the community care that has lost its funding over the last several decades that proper reimbursement, as I'm hearing, you say it is actually funding some of these community places to take care of people before and after some of these crisis. So that way, they're not sitting around waiting three days for a placement when there's no placements that can be found.
Kesy Yoon 37:25
Exactly. I think that's very true. You know, I don't have that much experience with either, but even a psychiatric urgent care, there's not that many. I think the main one I know about is the line of Exodus, or who cares for mental health. And then there's a new one that was recently built Long Beach, but even having that and they also have their time constraints. Suppose the patients can only stay for 23 hours, I don't know who came up with that number. And then they get Yeah, or they get transferred. And long before I started in the ER, they told me stories of there was an exodus connected to our emergency room. So they would discharge a patient from the Exodus, urgent care, transfer them on a gurney, basically down the street to our er, and they will kind of just ping pong them around, because they didn't know what to do with these patients. And so yes, I think proactive care before and then actually having sustainable and viable trend plans after would be immensely helpful.
Katie Vernoy 38:25
Well, I'm also hearing having some way to be comprehensive and how people can do services where the billing isn't, by the minute, yeah, based on type of service, and I even think the whole issue of inpatient versus outpatient. And can you bill for both services on the same day? Right. Seems like there's also insurance bureaucracy that needs to be addressed, because people are not doing the best care they can, because they won't get reimbursed for it. And they're being incentivized to treat and St. Hmm.
Kesy Yoon 39:03
I agree with that. And I was actually talking to a psychiatrist the other day, what did I ask? I was thinking was asking about, you know, what was his experience like working in the emergency room? And it's difficult, because I think a lot of them are inpatient. psychiatrists are usually, I don't know, one group that's seeing inpatient psych and a detox unit, if they have that, which was the case of my hospital. And so getting someone to come down, just to see a patient out of 50 or 50. It was never fast enough for the ER doctors First of all, and it was difficult for them because, you know, they're, they're either going to discharge a patient or they're going to treat are they going to come every day, the patient's there, and I think that was difficult, as well.
Katie Vernoy 39:48
It is very patchwork.
Kesy Yoon 39:50
That's a great way to put it very patchwork. I felt like I was always scrambling to put pieces together and it within a very finite amount of time and everyone was always asking administration was always asking why? Why is the station here for so long? And what are you not doing to either get them upstairs? And it's, you know, it can be very frustrating.
Katie Vernoy 40:10
I guess the question ties to the reverse, which is, how hopeful did you feel when someone came in with a mental health crisis that they would stabilize, get back to their life? And things would be good going forward? Like how Sure, were you that they were going to get the care that they needed? Honestly,
Kesy Yoon 40:30
I think it would depend on some factors. I think if they came in with a family member, or a friend or roommate who was concerned, and I could tell that they could get connected after I would have, my hope would increase, if they came alone, there are no resources, no family, no social support, then I would almost think, well, there's a good chance they're going to be bad. But there's, there's some hope in that too, right. Like, I think when I first started working in the emergency room, I was so shocked by how much the ER becomes a part of some patient's treatment plan. They just know where they know, I don't know, in the middle of the month, I'm probably gonna have some kind of psychotic breakdown, and I'm going to come to the ER, I think that would affect how much
Katie Vernoy 41:16
What do you see as an ideal for how er services would be working with in relationships, how they fit in the larger mental health system, because it sounds like as a, as a catch all, or sometimes even the first first door, it may be really the wrong match. So how do you think it should fit in to the mental health system?
Kesy Yoon 41:36
You know, ideally, I would, I think the ER should operate, similar to how it should operate for just medical patients, which is for mental health crises and emergencies. Ideally, there would also be things like more psychiatric urgent care centers, where there's kind of this other level before they get triage as an emergency or a crises. And I think to be great in the ER staff, maybe nurses or whatnot, were cross trained on how to deal with mental health crises and mental health patients, every single er is dealing with mental health, right. And so I understand you don't need an extensive amount of training, but it's always divided between the ER staff, and then the site staff that comes in to help and support. So it's almost like this, oh, the psych nurse will take care of it. And so the ER staff, whatever training, they got nursing school, let's say, that's kind of it. So that would be another ideal if there was just more cross training involved, to deal with mental health crises, if that's what the ER was, in, of course, in my ideal if that's what was being used for.
James McMahill 42:42
I think, in an in an ideal space, and I always dream about this, whenever I'm at the ER, and I'm really struggling with that tension of freeing up the ER bed, is that I would love to see a mirrored space, a space that is identical in, in every way to the ER, but is staffed with nurses who are trained specifically in mental health that is staffed with psychiatrists, as much as it is PhDs, or medical Doc's and a place that's really conducive to that moment of stabilization until you can get someone to a program that will better serve their needs than the ER, because, you know, the ER, fundamentally is about stabilization and about creation of, of safety. And so in particular, when you're dealing with a psychiatric crisis, a lot of times the moments of sad occurs, the environment in which we're going and seeing that the rooms for clients that we're going and doing Christ assessment, it's a, it is a safe room, you know, quote, unquote, and so it's a, it's a bed, and it is four walls, and it's a locked door. And so, there's so many incongruencies, to what it is that I'm trying to offer in that moment, which is real human connection, which is true visibility, which is, you know, making sure that that moment, or that person in that moment knows that they're being heard, and they're being seen, they're being treated by someone who has their best interests at heart. And meanwhile, I'm doing it in this hermetically sealed cube. And so, I'd like to see a psychiatric er, that's where that's where I would like to be treating the clients when I'm doing the assessment, but
Katie Vernoy 44:22
How would the job for a clinician change in the ER, if this system were, quote unquote, fixed? If people actually were able to that it really was crisis or first door? Not rotten, not revolving door? Not, you know, casual? How would that change? how it feels to be a clinician in the ER?
Kesy Yoon 44:49
That's I really liked that question. I always have never thought about that. I mean, I in moments, because you're just there's so everything is timed. And so you're just like, Oh my I just have to go out and assess this patient and get them out of here. or have a plan for the doctor because he doesn't want to deal with it? How would it change? I think there would be more care. I mean, I'll speak from my own experience. I think when I saw patients who were truly in a mental health crisis, maybe even some of those are revolving door when they would come in, and they were really having a hard time. I think it would just allow for more care, even in that kind of chaotic setting. If we're the first door, the first, the first learning for these kinds of patients, maybe wouldn't have to be so chaotic and so hurried, maybe they could feel like this was the right decision they made and it's safe. For me, that would be one way you could change. But I had to think about that a little bit more in terms of, I guess, I've just never thought about what it would be like if we weren't responsible for just getting them out as soon as possible.
Katie Vernoy 45:55
So now it's our turn to reflect a little bit on what we heard, close it out. But I was very struck by how similar the perspective was, even though we've got folks that are working in two different areas in the country. I think that the desire for a psychiatric emergency room with the training the resources, that person to person connection, that could be possible. I really liked that vision. But I think as as you and I've talked about a number of times, it's huge systemic changes that are going to need to happen for that to really be the case.
Curt Widhalm 46:31
And it's often with a part of society that gets overlooked as far as being a worthwhile investment. And that's part of why Katie and I are putting this whole series together is it's something where looking at one particular space in the system, as it's being isolated away from everything else doesn't do it justice, as far as how we look at fitting everything together. In our interviews and some of the stuff that got left on the cutting room floor, especially James was talking about some of the stark differences that he had seen between his work in Southern California and his work in Minnesota. But despite all that, there just seem to be more similarities than not, especially when it comes to where the shortcomings of the system is. And through the remainder of this series and our continued advocacy work of improving mental health in America. I'm hoping that by putting all of this in the context, we've got a really good opportunity for some calls to action for some good systemic change.
Katie Vernoy 47:42
So keep listening. We've got more episodes that'll be coming out soon. And by soon it could be in a month or it could be in three months. We're trying our best to put together really solid interviews so that we're putting together a nice hole. But if you have ideas to share for our fixing mental health care in the United States series, please let us know.
Curt Widhalm 48:02
Check out our show notes at mcsg podcast calm and for could links to the previous episodes as well as some information on James and Casey and also a welcome to our growing team of Alyssa Davis who helps make some editorial contributions on this episode as well. Till next time, I'm Kurt Woodham Katie Vernoy
Katie Vernoy 48:27
Thanks again to our sponsor, the Healthcasters
Curt Widhalm 48:30
wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in the health casters podcasting course it includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guests templates to let guests know that a podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more about health casters, it's sellingthecouch.com/jointhe healthcasters
Katie Vernoy 49:20
into the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price. And just a reminder that sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.
Announcer 49:30
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Why YOU Shouldn’t Sell Out to BetterHelp An interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC from TherapyDen about the ins and outs of affiliate partnerships. Curt and Katie talk with Jeff about the offer he received from BetterHelp and why he turned it down – taking some time to discuss the therapist businesses and influencers who have chosen this partnership and the subsequent backlash from the online therapist communities. We look at how these types of partnerships can be formed, what you should consider when you are approached to collaborate with another company, and how much money it would take for us to sell out.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC, TherapyDen Jeff Guenther, LPC, is a therapist in Portland, OR. He has been in private practice since 2005 and currently leads workshops on how health and wellness practitioners can build their digital brand and attract more clients online. Jeff is the creator and owner of two highly ranked healthcare directory sites, Portland Therapy Center and TherapyDen.
In this episode we talk about: * Jeff’s TherapyDen story – why/how he started it and the different types of partnerships and other business arrangements that he’s been approached with * How to sift out what is being offered and whether a partnership is beneficial or harmful * The salesy approaches that Jeff just does not respond to * The common origin stories and connections made with tech startups * Why Brighter Vision and others have gotten so much backlash when they partnered with BetterHelp * The movement from the online therapists’ groups to respond to Brighter Vision and the resulting discontinuation of the partnership with BetterHelp * The importance of taking care of the individuals in the profession * The corporate focus on commoditization of therapy * The different ways that companies like BetterHelp may be making money off of therapy clients and therapists (e.g., data mining) * BetterHelp’s plan to take over therapist directories and all of the entry points for therapy * The consequences of BetterHelp’s success and how they are changing the expectations * Ideas about larger provider networks that can be done well to support therapists and clients * The specifics of Jeff’s offer from BetterHelp and why he turned it down * The morals and values questions that come up when facing one of these offers * The practical reasons not to take these kinds of deals, no matter the money involved * The importance of being able to stand behind your partners
Our Generous Sponsor: The Healthcasters The Healthcasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turned coaches + consultants that's supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Wanted to tell you guys a little bit what's included in the Healthcasters podcasting course. It includes simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches. Also includes cheatsheets and templates Melvin uses for the Selling The Couch podcast whether its scripts to reach out to guests or templates to let guests know a podcast is live. We recently released the Podcast Episode Tracker. This simple sheet helps you keep your podcast episodes organized whether you want to reference them later or re-purpose the content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade after purchasing the course to a community of over 250 other therapist podcasts. This also includes monthly group and 1 on 1 coaching calls with Melvin. You can learn more about Healthcasters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters (enter the promo code "therapyreimagined" at checkout for $100 off the listed price).
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
TherapyDen
Create a Free Therapist Profile on TherapyDen
Contact Jeff: hello@therapyden.com
Swoon Podcast and Jeff's TherapyDen Blog
Relevant Episodes:
Jeff Guenther’s first interview on the podcast: Privileged and Biased
Online Therapy Apps
The Burnout System
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide is brought to you by Healthcasters.
Katie Vernoy 00:04
The HealthCasters is a podcasting course and community designed for therapists in private practice and therapists turn coaches and consultants that supported the successful launch of over 270 podcasts. Learn more about the health casters at sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters and enter the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
Listen at the end of the episode for more information about health casters,
Announcer 00:29
You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Kurt Wilhelm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:45
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast that is for therapists about therapists the things that we do the values that we hold. And one of the things that's happened here in the therapy world in the last few weeks is there's a lot of online backlash against the company brighter vision brighter vision is somebody who we formerly had a partnership sponsorship with in the past. But there is a backlash that was happening around brighter visions partnership with a company called better help. And you can check out our previous episode about some of these therapy apps. And we'll link to that in our show notes over at mtsgpodcast.com over the course of a week, and what we saw was brighter vision announced this partnership, a tremendous pressure put in to brighter vision by the online therapists communities. And just a few days later, Brighter Vision announced that they were no longer going to be partnered with BetterHelp. Through all of this, one of our friends and previous guests, Jeff Guenther, he's a LPC in the Portland area, as you might know him from TherapyDen, and a lot of the other cool stuff that he does reached out to me and said, Hey, I have a story about some of these partnerships. And we were like, please come back to the podcast as soon as possible. And welcome back, Jeff, and thank you for spending some time with us.
Jeff Guenther 02:23
Haha, yeah, I'm happy to be here. And I can't wait to talk to you guys about this.
Katie Vernoy 02:27
So we've asked you this question before. And people can go back and listen to a previous episode. But I'd love for you to tell people who are you and what are you putting out to the world now because I know there's some updates and some some good stuff and then intros for our new listeners.
Jeff Guenther 02:41
Sure. I am Jeff Guenther, one of my big projects that I'm working on that I've been working on since 2017 is a national therapist directory called TherapyDen, go to therapyden.com visit it. A progressive and all inclusive therapists directory, it was mainly it came from like my hatred for psychology today. And especially back in 2017. And before Psychology Today felt like very behind in the times. So I was like, You know what, there should be a better option for this. And there are some other therapists directories and I want to jump into the therapist directory game, I have made like a pretty successful therapists directory locally for Portland. So I was taking all my skills and applying it to the national therapists directory. So it can make it progressive and it can be anti racist and social justice II and make it so that like therapist asked therapists to be a little bit more authentic in their profile. So you can like really get to understand to know who the therapist is, and what they're all about. Trying to get the therapist to share their values and beliefs and all that good stuff. started working on that in 2017. It launched in 2018. And it's been growing ever since then. And it's been a really fun ride. And also a roller coaster. One of my more interesting experiences was better help coming to me and looking for a partnership. But there's been many organizations out there looking for partnerships, and I kind of use them air quotes, because some of them are really looking to partner with you to like, enhance their brand and like Yahoo came to therapy den not too long ago being like, Hey, we want to feature you on our like mental health page. And it was all on the app, an app and it's great. Unfortunately, as we know, not a lot of people use Yahoo. But still very excited to partner with Yahoo like a very recognized brand. I wish them the best. Then there's other companies that are like wanting to partner that really just want to buy out TherapyDen or really want to sell marketing services to therapy done or want to make money off of us. So yeah, so there's been like a lot of really interesting conversations that I've had.
Curt Widhalm 04:49
I don't know whether to just kind of choose this better help story to get people to listen to the entire episode or to follow our normal pattern of asking, you know, for those people who are looking to partner with some of these companies? How do you sift out some of the, you know, these are the ones that are good versus these are the ones that maybe don't have the best interests of what I've got going on in mind. You know Katie, and I get approached very much in the same way, by a number of different companies. What are some of the experiences that you've had that have led you to better understanding where some of these intentions are because some of these people have great marketing teams that know how to talk around some of the more inexperienced people? So how can we help people maybe not make some of the same mistakes?
Jeff Guenther 05:44
I don't know... I'm still trying, I still try to figure that out. And I still struggle with it. Sometimes there's like a group of people, sort of like techie investors, Silicon Valley, sorts of bros that like reach out to me every now and then to want to learn and they want to learn more about therapy, diagnose therapy directory, like how to match therapists with clients, because they are creating a very similar product. Yeah, we're, they're creating a matching service. And they have some new innovative way that they think is going to, like blow the pants off of the industry, that I and many other people have thought about and tried to implement and failed or didn't fail, but they have the secret sauce. But really, like, they want to get like all of all the information all the data from me, either to like kind of steal my ideas or improve on their own ideas, or to possibly buy me out. And so whenever there's like tech companies that are coming to like, ask me about therapyden, then I'm always very guarded. And I hold everything close to my chest. So if somebody like finds me reaches out to me through LinkedIn automatically, I don't want to respond to them. I hate linkedin. I don't know how you feel about LinkedIn. But that already feels very shady to me. Yeah. And then there's,I usually respond like, just yesterday morning, somebody was reaching out to me through LinkedIn saying, like, hey, I'd love to partner with you. And I said, if you're selling the marketing services, I don't want to talk to you. That's usually like my first response. And then if they continue to kind of try to get to me, and I might have a phone call with them, but you can tell if somebody is being salesy with you, or like offering you the world, or, I mean, it just doesn't, it just doesn't feel right. It's probably not right. There was an another company, they were thinking about buying out therapyden. And that was like, I was like, I don't know. And so I had to do like a lot of research to figure out like, Who are they? Are they good? Are they bad? I don't know. It never obviously never actually went through. And we just sort of like couldn't align, I guess. But I guess the answer, the question is like, How does it feel? How does it feel when somebody is reaching out to you? And really, I got a really good feeling from like, all the folks at Yahoo, who are just like, really clearly into like mental health, and wanting to put together resources that was like really good for the community? What do you both think?
Katie Vernoy 10:43
I do most of these conversations. And so I think for me, I think there are times probably when I'm swayed by the relationship, you know, I started to get to know somebody, we have more conversations, I think that independent research is important. Because when you're getting on a call with somebody, they are going to have the story like this is the reason and and i think about I've talked to a lot of tech startups, I don't have the same conflict, because it's not a competing business. In fact, you know, we we want therapists to find the right directories, we want therapists to find the right resources and said, that's why we want a feature therapy den on our site. You know, like, there's those kinds of things. But I think when I start feeling like there's two different types, I think of these tech companies, some of them are, let's commoditize this, let's How can we get the most profit, and there's a lot of folks and most of these are the ones that I think are not as successful. And so they're wanting advice, and they're probably wondering, you know, free free research from you and stuff like that, where they've, they've started their hearts in the right place. They're getting out of the, the big tech world and one of their family members has had a mental health issue. And they they couldn't find the resources they needed, they found this gap and they want it. So I mean, it's like, I've heard this story a number of times so many times. And they're somewhere I get to know them better. I'm like, these are really cool people and they're they've got the right people on their team. I like their team members. I'm seeing how they're supporting good mental health. I'm seeing how they're supporting clinicians. And then there's others where I'm like, What are you doing? And some of it's the instinct, but some of it is just kind of going through and doing the research and then trying to see if you can find people who are in these systems to see is it actually does it actually feel good? Does it actually is it actually working? You know, are they having any moral qualms about the the therapy that they're able to provide or you know, or The money that they're getting for the work that they're doing. But it's so hard because the exceptionally good marketing teams are going to come with these amazing heart wrenching stories, they're going to be super friendly. And I think it's just, you just got to do the background legwork and try to be objective, which is hard. We are saying that we're grappling with these decisions, you know, and potentially there are times when really, really nice arrangements or sizable money or sizable visibility can happen from these partnerships. And we can make wrong decisions, we can always walk them back and do different things, but it seems like brighter vision, and other therapists, b2b companies or therapist influencers, people are getting a big backlash for partnering with betterhelp. I have my own opinion, but you've you've actually interacted with betterhelp, they reached out to us and we're like, we'd like to talk about your employment practices. I didn't hear anything else after that. Um, and so why do you think there's such a big backlash against brighter vision and these other folks who've decided to partner with better help?
Jeff Guenther 11:07
Yeah, I think there's a lot of reasons for that. And we all have maybe our own personal reasons, the serve brighter vision, like my sort of experience of who they are in their company, it seemed like oh, is Perry, you know, the owner and starter, but now not the owner, President, I think they just sold they sold. Yeah, it seemed like Perry was like, hey, I want to like start the service, I want to make websites for therapists and, and there isn't like a lot of good options out there, like, great. And then he did it. And then he became successful. And he hired he like, created this little team. And it seemed like they were very personable, like we knew who Perry was, and what brighter visions was all about. And they are in all the little therapists, private practice groups on Facebook, and yada, yada. And we knew them, it felt like they were on our team, they're on our side. And that felt nice. And so then all of a sudden, they announced this partnership with better help, who I think most of us a lot of us think is like the bad guy. And it was very much what I thought maybe you know more about Perry and brighter visions, but it seemed like it was out of line with who they are and what their values are. And their support that they had for like therapists. And the deal didn't seem to make sense. I don't know the details. I'm sure it made sense on their end. But it was it was kind of bizarre that they were trying to like, help betterhelp get more therapists to subscribe to their services that I'm not sure how it connects with like therapists creating websites through them. So that was funky. And I was super impressed. Maybe this has happened before. And I hadn't seen it before. But I was super impressed with the community, the mental health community and all the therapists that were just like, no, this is not okay. And they flooded, brighter visions, and they flooded all the therapists groups and created this like organic campaign to like contact Perry and not allow this to happen. So that was super impressive, and like, very exciting, and made me think that like, Oh, we do have a lot of power. If we can all come together and do something. It didn't feel right, it felt really gross it partnership didn't make sense. I think a lot of people have like a really good fuzzy, nice feeling about brighter visions. So partnering with better help, didn't, didn't, I didn't understand that.
Katie Vernoy 13:30
I think the thing that felt I don't know about icky, but I think the thing that felt weird to me is that the idea around brighter vision is that they are creating webs, they're helping therapists create websites for their own practices, and brighter and better help is actually actively in competition. And so it's like you're funneling the competition. And you're also helping your therapists who are your customers or potential customers, to basically get bogged down in the betterhelp world where you're not gonna make any money and you're too busy and blah, blah, blah, I think the they came back with a, hey, you know, people who are just starting out, sometimes better help is a good way for them to make some money while they're growing their own practice. And so it was like, that's what we were thinking about. But I don't know...
Curt Widhalm 14:17
I think we have to also put this into the context of what impact these tech companies are having on our industry, because as you're both speaking, that there seems to be this push away from you as the individual therapists and more into kind of, you know, helping somebody get better stock returns, you know, on the New York Stock Exchange here at some points that and that really goes against what I think all of our values are here, which is really taking care of the individuals having used the individuals be seen. And I think that a lot of the people that we share in our audience in these Facebook groups, as you know, listeners of our podcast here, attendees of our conference, people who use therapyden, that we come in as caring individuals and are tired of being cogs in a machine. And so this really inconsistent message seems to be something where it's very easy to feared, like, Hey, this is just shoving a, you know, burnout machine away from community mental health, and now into kind of just a more corporate sort of therapy delivery service.
Jeff Guenther 15:32
Yeah, for sure. Like you said, like better help, doesn't care about helping people. I mean, I don't think I think they think that they care about helping, you know, padding their bottom line and giving money back to their investors and making a ton of money. Like they like you. I think you mentioned maybe earlier before we started recording, like, they're also into data mining, they take your data, and they sell it to Facebook, and Google and Pinterest. So even if somebody like goes on to better help a client, a person goes on to better help, like find a therapist, and fills out an intake form that intake form, even before they start like a subscription, that that info on that intake form is sent to advertisers that are looking for that it like want to know more about you. So Facebook can know the last time you wanted to commit suicide. So Pinterest can know every time you open up that app and talk about how depressed you are. Better help isn't like looking at the exact language that a client or a therapist is like putting into the app, but they're collecting like the metadata around it. So it's just sort of they get this kind of like idea of who you are. And then they apply it to your sort of like online profile, so that Facebook can like sell you more products that depressed people buy, or anxious people buy or people will trauma by you know, they create. And so, as a therapist in private practice, like all of us that are probably listening, we would never sell our clients data to other people. But like, that's a big part of better helps money making scheme. Because they need to make that money. And they make a ton of money off of that. And it reminds me so I worked for this really weird funny, not very funny, but just slightly weird company in Portland when I first got my master's degree. And they're, they're hiring people with master's degree in counseling that also had a voice. So they could like pick up a phone and be on this crisis line. But it was a for profit crisis line, which is weird. Uh huh. And every time us therapists would pick up the phone, that business would make 15 bucks. And so they kept on together. Like, it's you're not allowed to talk for over 12 minutes to somebody who's in a crisis. You like, you got to like, get them off the phone and get them off the phone. That's the more people that you answer, the more you'll they'll make money. And we're just sort of like became this like, weird little machine. We're just trying to answer as many phone calls as we possibly could. There's these little alarm bells going off. We're on the phone too long.
Katie Vernoy 18:06
Oh, no! That sounds like a horrible job.
Jeff Guenther 18:10
It was it was horrible. I in the middle of it applied to work at the Apple Store. Because I was like, I can't be a therapist anymore. This is what oh, anyways, it feels very similar to betterhelp, where they're just like they're there to like, make money and the more that they can get people to sign up, the more money they're going to make.
Katie Vernoy 18:27
Yeah, I think there's also and I don't know if this was involved in any of the folks who I've seen in partnership with betterhelp. But it seems like there's also large, you know, kind of investment cycles. And so if you can say I have this many therapists in my whatever, in my network, and then there's, then there's more likely that you'll get some angel investor money.
Jeff Guenther 18:52
Mm hmm. Yeah. And they're looking better help us like looking. They're trying to corner every single way a person is looking for, for therapy. We've seen all their ads on Facebook, and we've seen their ads on TV, and they're gobbling up therapists directories one by one trying to like so they have a bunch of therapists directories, what do they have? They have pride counseling.com the corner like the LGBTQ market, they have faithful counseling.com for the biblical perspective, they have teen counseling.com The list goes on where they just like make these make believe therapists directories or they find a therapist directory and buy them out you know clay cockerel from online counseling calm No, no I know you know i mean counseling calm Yeah, yeah. Better help presented him with like the same deal partnership that they presented to me and he decided to take it I like clay clay is a great guy. I'm like not trying to shit on clay is fantastic. And he made a good financial decision for himself. But if you go to like online counseling calm, which then forwards you to online therapy calm, which then forwards you to like better help therapists like they're just looking to like gobble up all the SEO, all the websites out there, you know, like they're very savvy and what they're doing.
Katie Vernoy 20:22
How does that impact our industry then if they're if the more they're successful with these partnerships, and gobbling up every entry point for therapy, and all of, you know, large groups of therapists?
Jeff Guenther 20:34
Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're just they're taking all of our clients and they're conditioning clients to, and they're not clients, they're subscribers, right? So they're conditioning clients to like, think that this is what therapy is for. And I don't think that it's good to have 24 hour access seven days a week to your therapist, that's doesn't feel healthy to me. But that's it's like, you know, it's the Uber of therapy. It's and therapists, better help get paid by the word, you know, like, and you're not allowed to like type two times the amount of words that your client is typing, or else you're not going to get paid for it. So there's like, you're not going to get paid in certain ways when you're a better help therapist, and you're just not going to like provide the counseling to that client, because you're not going to get paid for it anyways, you have to make this fucked up decision. So it's really creating these really weird expectations for clients. You know, the taxi business isn't really here anymore, because Uber and Lyft took it over. That can happen to us if better health and talkspace and other Silicon Valley companies keep taking it over. But Katie, you mentioned that there are some good guys. I know. But I'm hopefully I'm not being duped. But I think, yeah, I'm not super aware of like all the good guys, but I'm totally open to hearing about who they are. So I can look into that.
Katie Vernoy 21:55
I mean, I think Curt and I have talked about it. And I think they're the strongest ones are the ones that actually do an employment model. So that therapists who are working for them are able to unionize, they can they can do some of these things, they can have the benefits of being employees, I think there's arguments for extended provider networks being also helpful for folks who don't want to be employees and just want a couple of clients that are you know, through insurance or whatever. But I think there's there may be negative Kurt Kurt's informs me there could be very negative things on on that end, if we have too many kind of contractor models. And he and I will probably have a whole other conversation about this. So we can go in deeper but, but to me, there's some therapists who I think don't really want to be private practitioners, and they don't really fit into an agency or community mental health kind of model. And so being able to be employed by lire is one of the ones that we've talked to that seem really nice are some of these other employers like gigantic employers, it's like it's a dream, because you get to see ideal clients for a good salary in kind of a, you know, in kind of more similar to a private practice model. And you can, and you can be an employee and just do it. And so it's like, you just get to focus on therapy, you don't have to figure out how to market because I don't think all therapists should be private practitioners. So I think that there are some folks who are increasing access while still taking care of therapists and doing good clinical work. Now, they may take away our clients, and so there's the competition element, but I don't know that it's all bad. Yeah, no, it's probably not all bad.
Curt Widhalm 23:32
There's a tremendous amount of money that these companies are trying out for advertising for partnerships for any of these, you know, gobbling up companies, as you're describing here. And a lot of this money is coming from either, you know, conglomerate Corporation type things to, you know, kind of change the markets and have, you know, billionaires funding some of this stuff going on. I want to get a little bit to your story. And when you presented me with the number that you did, as far as the amount of money that they were approaching you, and I've been approached to sell out my practice by not this better help company, but I was like, Wow, that is a tremendous amount of money for myself. How's this money impacting us? You know, you and I have made decisions to stay with what we're doing at this point. But we see, you know, our friends, our other people in the community who are partnering up, we see these businesses partnering up. What are we seeing as far as companies like ours that are just kind of still you know, fighting the good fight here.
Jeff Guenther 24:49
It's, you know, you base your company or your service on like, what feels like the right values, and you have like a great mission and we stand behind it and it like it. It is who you are, that's like your identity. And you create this business and lots of other therapists or therapy users resonate with them. And then you have these big companies like betterhelp, who approached me in July 2019. So it was like, pretty soon after, like therapy, then the therapist directory launched. Also, I'm like the majority owner of therapy, then I also have a couple business partners who actually work on the site who like, you know, the developer of the site, and then the user experience person. So we're all just like working on the site and doing our day jobs. So I would have to, like get there, okay. to partner with better help for like the partner that for the deal that they're offering us. But I'm like the therapist and the face of the company. And I'll get into the details about what they offered therapy done. But when they offer you a ton of money, I felt like just throwing away all of my values, because there's a certain amount of money that I would sell myself for, I think,
Curt Widhalm 26:06
Oh, yeah, you can totally buy new new values with with the amount of money that they're offering.
Jeff Guenther 26:13
Aha, right. So they so the to get into the nitty gritty a little bit. They're like, VP of business development, shot me an email and was like, hey, love therapy, Dan, what you're doing your mission, your values, I stand behind it, this is fantastic, blah, blah, blah. And I can see that you don't offer a lot of options for online therapists. And we were just starting to like integrate that into therapy. And we're only like, providing therapist for in person therapy. And then we're like, adding online therapist. And so we've just launched that. And when you click like the online therapists in this state button, nothing was showing up because nobody was signing up yet. But we're building and yada, yada, and he was like, so if you want better help, if you want better help therapists to be integrated into your therapy directory, then those could be the search results that come on for that come up and are displayed for online therapists. So we'll like integrate all of our therapists, they'll have these sort of pretend listings on therapy den. And when somebody goes and hits like the contact button or wants to call them it goes right to like better help, and they sign up through better help. So these aren't therapy den. These aren't actual therapists and private practice on therapyden, right, there's like, these better help workers. So that didn't feel good. It felt like that was like bad user experience. I'm also deceiving that, you know, potential client that's looking for a therapist, or things that they're looking for a therapist in Santa Monica, California, but really, for some random, betterhelp person. But what he was offering was like, every time somebody clicks on a better help therapist in your therapy, then listing and they sign up for an account, even if it's just a free account at first first month, or first week free, we will give you $300.
Katie Vernoy 28:06
Whoa!
Jeff Guenther 28:09
And let's say I would have taken that deal and therapy down would have continued to grow at the pace that it would have grown at which probably wouldn't have happened, or maybe would have happened even more, I don't know. Let's say that, like I'm getting, you know, us a small chunk of you know, we measure how many people are getting referrals through therapy, then if we took like a percentage of the people getting referrals through therapy, then maybe like a small percentage of it like 1000 people a month or something. If 1000 people a month we're connecting with these better help therapist we'd get about $300,000 a month. Probably a lot more though. So he was saying like, you can you'll eventually get between maybe like 250,000 to $500,000 a month, if you let us put these third health practitioners in your therapist directory, which I don't know if that I mean, that would have like cannibalized the therapists directory, it would have probably become just like pride counseling or teen counseling, calm or whatever, they just would have taken an over, but we would have made a ton of money. And if it still would have been going on today, we'd be making hundreds of 1000s of dollars, at least at minimum per month.
Curt Widhalm 29:27
How do you pass up that money? Honestly. I mean, we all we all have our dollar about and as I was sitting here since you reached out to me it's from when Jeff first reached out to me to record date spin but a week and a half. I'm like for a couple million dollars a year like I could do basically whatever I want. And like then you just start going down like that that fantasy like oh, what What do I really want to do? But it's really not worth doing $2 million here, like, how do you pass up that kind of money. And on top of that, they're offering therapists like $500, like, one time to sign up for this stuff. So like, hold out people, like you can get more than 500.
Jeff Guenther 30:21
Exactly. Um, you know, I, there's like, this capitalist inside of me, like it's inside of everybody. Yeah, I'm sure that I really regret not taking that deal. And just cashing out. How do I pass it up? Oh, there's a big part of me that's kicking myself for passing. Another part of me, you know, I there's like a real deep seated like, angsty teenager inside of me, that's always like, Fuck the man. And betterhelp felt like the man. And so and it felt like selling out. So there was that I didn't want to be a sellout. It was, I don't know, like, you know, I was raised in, I was a teenager in the 90s. And selling out was the worst they could be. And so that's very embedded into my DNA. I'm also I think, and this is like, part of my, I don't know, something ego or whatever. But like, I think therapy then can be even bigger than what better help is offering me, I think that it can be even more successful. So I'm like 2 million, fuck your 2 million. How about 20 million. And like, that's what I think therapy den is worth. It's not worth that. But maybe it will be eventually. And that's what I hope, like I saying, like, you're going to sell out, you're going to get like, you know, shamed and I and I might not be able to create any other therapy products ever again, I might not be able to be like, be taken seriously, I was just starting to podcast at that time, I really wanted to be an authority. And I wanted to be taken seriously. And I felt like that would like really, like it was too early for me to sell out. I think there's like a lot more good that I have that I want to contribute to the industry.
Curt Widhalm 32:13
If you're from better help, and you're listening, call me.
Katie Vernoy 32:20
Curt's ready to sell us out, or just, maybe personally, you're ready to sell out, you can still keep our stuff. Is that what you're telling me?
Jeff Guenther 32:27
Better help was also kind of breaking it down, like so will pay $300 a referral. And they make on average 12 $100 per subscriber. So they're totally willing to make that bet. And they might be making more than that, but back two or so years ago, was like, Yeah, not a bad return on investment pains. $300 to make 12 $100, I think anybody would probably want that. So like, it just sort of like made financial sense to them. And, and it felt gross. And I had just a part of me that regrets it. I'm like, mostly proud of myself for not selling out.
Katie Vernoy 33:07
I think there's a part of me that's maybe a little Pollyanna ish or naive, but I think there's this. Well, if I had that kind of money, I could do a lot of real good in the world. Now, if you've sold yourself out, and you've cannibalized a really important product that you provide, or a service that you provide, I think that becomes very hard to do. So I appreciate that part of what you were saying, because I think like, well, if somebody were to give me $500,000 a month, there is so much I could do with that money. But that doesn't matter if I've like basically gone to the dark side. So
Jeff Guenther 33:45
yeah, and I wonder how much money better help was going to give brighter vision. If they're making 12 $100 off one subscriber slash client. How much money are they making, when they hire a therapist, a therapist is going to make is going to bring in a ton of money for them. Yeah. So Perry and brighter vision we're probably getting, we're offered like a pretty sweet partnership deal.
Katie Vernoy 34:09
So for them, they give six months free of their service, which is like $70. So
Jeff Guenther 34:15
A month Yeah,
Katie Vernoy 34:16
yeah. $70 a month. So
Curt Widhalm 34:19
500 ish.
Katie Vernoy 34:21
So that said they were giving away $500 worth of services. So they must be getting at least $1500. Right. Like you don't, at least. Yeah, yeah. So it's we don't know, we're purely conjecture. But
Curt Widhalm 34:36
We do have to wrap up here today. And, you know, I think this is something where Katie and I and all the time that we've known Jeff as well can really speak to having a values driven business model. And while that may not necessarily be it in the most rewarding way in our pocket book, when compared to Some of the alternatives here. It is something where you can know that standing behind companies like therapy den, and Katie and myself with therapy reimagined the podcast here and that we do really take the effort to look at who it is that we partner with. And in order to remain consistent to who we are. And we know Jeff is a stand up person. And really, because of this history, and knowing some of these decisions that we all make, and this makes it to where, you know, we're hoping to leave this field a better place for all of us. And we encourage you to do the same kinds of things for yourself and for the industry as well. And so, you know, in keeping with all of this stuff, how can people stay updated with what you've got going on Jeff?
Jeff Guenther 35:59
Yeah, they can go ahead and create a profile therapists go ahead and create a profile therapy.com, it's totally free, you'll be added to the newsletter, you can contact me at therapy.com. It goes right to my inbox, I love to reply to all of those messages. They I also produce a podcast called the swoon podcast, it's for it's about love and sex and relationship advice. There's, and I want to just sort of like in this being like, yeah, there are lots of therapists and businesses that are creating value based products and services. And as therapists we can tell, like who those companies are, and I and I want you all to just say no to better help, and talkspace and companies like that, like they're not serving us, and they're changing our industry, in some of like the worst ways possible. If I would have let better help integrate their, like their listings into therapy, then then you wouldn't have been able to filter for therapists that are queer, competent, and trans competent, you know, like they they don't ask for that sort of information from their therapists. They don't have that data, like the whole progressive filtering system on therapy done, which is the heart of the website wouldn't exist, because they don't really care about, like figuring out competencies are asking for therapists beliefs, and values and all of the stuff that clients are really interested in right now. Sorry, that was a little bit of a soapbox, you can you should sign up for therapy. It's totally free. If you want to pay you can. You can choose to pay for your subscription. You can choose to pay 1020 or $30 per month or $0 a month. It's totally up to you.
Curt Widhalm 37:46
And we'll include links to all of Jeff's stuff in our show notes at mcsg podcast comm also check out the therapy reimagined conference, it's coming up in a hybrid format here at the end of September, and get all of the latest updates at therapy, reimagined conference calm or on our social media. And Katie and I will be presenting, we'll have a presentation at this conference. And the focus of it is really going to be about having a practice that can be values driven and well, companies like better help and talkspace. And all of these ones exist around us and taking lessons learned from industries like taxis and blockbuster and helping us to not make the same kinds of mistakes. So look out for that content as well as a ton of our great speakers. Therapy reimagined conference calm, and until next time. I'm currently on with Katie Vernoy and Jeff Gunther.
Katie Vernoy 38:44
Thanks again to our sponsor, the HealthCasters
Curt Widhalm 38:48
Wanted to tell you guys a little bit of what's included in the health casters podcasting course they did include simple step by step videos to take your podcast from idea to one that generates income when it launches also includes cheat sheets and templates Dr. Melvin Varghese uses for the selling the couch podcast, whether it's scripts to reach out to guest templates to let guests know that podcast is live. The recently released the podcast episode tracker the simple sheet helps keep your podcast episodes organized, whether you want to reference them later or repurpose them for content in the future. You can also choose to upgrade the purchase of course the community of over 250 other therapists podcasts. This includes monthly group one on one coaching calls with Melvin and you can learn more health casters, it's sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters
Katie Vernoy 39:38
into the promo code therapy reimagined at checkout for $100 off the listed price. And just a reminder that sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters.
Announcer 39:48
Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes
The State of the Profession in a COVID World Curt and Katie chat about the current state of the Mental Health Profession. We give our opinion on a recent report from SimplePractice, looking at what they included as well as what we think is missing. We explore how COVID has impacted burnout rates and give action steps professionals can take to support each other as we continue to move forward as a field. We also talk about barriers in our field and what is coming next.
This is the Modern Therapist Consumer Guide, a series of special episodes to help modern therapists navigate products and services specifically designed for therapists and their clients. We dig deeply into the companies, the people, and the products and services so you can make smart decisions in building your practice and serving your clients.
In this episode we talk about: * 0:53: What do Curt and Katie think about the report? And how do demographics and length of time in the field impact how long clinicians stay in the profession? * 2:27: Who feels burned out the most and what are action steps professionals can take to help each other with this problem? * 7:44: How do financial burdens and parental burnout impact a clinician’s ability to work in this field? * 10:50: How do insurance regulations create barriers for clinicians and clients? * 15:38: How has COVID impacted use of technology in the field and accessibility to care? * 18:55: Who are the therapists in the field and who are they working with (demographics)? * 23:18: How do social justice issues impact burnout rates? * 24:56: What comes next for our profession?
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GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly service options that can be catered to a practice’s needs - from basic bookkeeping to premium CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
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Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
State of the Mental Health Profession: Impact of COVID-19
Teletherapy Good Enough Therapy For A Crisis…and Beyond!
Relevant Episodes:
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Structuring Self-Care
Quarantine Self-Care for Therapists
Why Therapists Quit
Why Therapists Quit Part 2
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
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Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:00
This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
Katie Vernoy 00:02
Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding simple practice changes that this practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important your clients by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
Curt Widhalm 00:18
Stick around for a special offer at the end of this episode.
Katie Vernoy 00:23
This episode is also sponsored by GreenOak Accounting.
Curt Widhalm 00:26
At GreenOak accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They've worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to help them gain Financial Peace of mind and assist them with making smart financial decisions.
Katie Vernoy 00:38
If you're interested in speaking with a member of their team, visit their website at greenoakaccounting.com today.
Announcer 00:46
You're listening to the Modern Therapist Survival Guide where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 01:01
Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast where we talk about all things therapists, therapists related, and today's episode we are going to be discussing from our friends over at SimplePractice, they came out with a report called the state of the mental health profession, impact of COVID-19. And they had done a survey of a lot of mental health professionals from all across the United States. And this was published here in the first part of 2021. There's about 2500 respondents on this, and we are going to go through and talk about some of their findings, some of our reactions to this, and maybe kind of look at the way that Katie and I do the way that our profession goes forward. So Katie, what are your first thoughts on what you're finding out of this report? We'll also link to this in our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com but Katie, what are your thoughts on this?
Katie Vernoy 02:06
I think a lot of the report feels very common sense, I think there's a lot that we know, intrinsically or or instinctively, maybe that's a better word that is really showing up in this report. But I think it does have some good data that shows us things more concretely, to me, there's there's definitely things that are of concern, that I feel like we probably want to address, maybe not in this episode. But like as a society as a profession. We want to address these things. And one of them is the differential way that demographics and length of time in the profession impact clinicians, because to me, there's a sense that when folks have been in the profession longer, and they actually stay in the profession, I think there's a different way that we approach it versus the time stirring, which we're new in the profession and have a little bit less control. I feel like that's a little vague, but but maybe we can dig in. And I can point out some of those thoughts. I think it's it's something where we need as the two of us being experienced clinicians who have chosen to stay in the profession for this length of time, may want to reflect on why our newer colleagues or colleagues of color and color colleagues with other types of marginalized identities are having some different struggles than we are.
Curt Widhalm 03:29
So one of the first sections of this report is specifically diving in on this is who feels burnout the most. And this was broken down into aged categories with percentages of people who've always or often have feelings of burnout, those who rarely have it and those who report no such feelings and really stark differences in some age groups here 27% of those aged 35 and under reported always feeling burnt out. And these numbers go down in the higher categorical areas based on age 20% of 36 to 45 year olds 18% to 46 to 55 year olds, 13% of 56 to 65 and only 6% of those age 66 or older. And to me there's, you know what you're talking about here of oftentimes, younger therapists don't have as much control over what their practice is, as you're mentioning that your pre license you're working in agencies, you might not have as much of an opportunity to have control over your case loads when you see people how you see people that oftentimes being in this profession longer ends up affording us either the ability to shape our practices or private practices in the way that we want from moving up into supervisory or managerial positions that give us more control over our day to day. We also in this I think are missing that there. Usually a lot of survivorship bias that comes into questions like this. And this was something that we had originally first talks about in the very first therapy reimagined conference that you had I did our presentation on that, when it comes to Later career therapists and the research that's done on them, the people who are going to burn out and leave the field have long already burnt out in the field. And so the survivorship bias here might also be that those people who have a longer career have given me in some of those older age categories, have either a learned how to deal with the stresses better, might have easier abilities to control their schedule, but also just might be more naturally inclined to handling the kinds of stresses that come because those people who are feeling beartown, to those younger categories, might be the ones that have already left the field by the time to get to those older age categories.
Katie Vernoy 06:03
Another thing that I'm thinking about too, is that this is really broken down by age, but not necessarily time in the profession. And as therapy is a great second, third, fourth career and oftentimes can be a retirement career, folks who have had other careers have different financial situations, may be less likely to be burned out in later, later ages, because they have designed it that way. They have that financial buffer that someone starting in the career in their 20s and 30s, may not have and and they also have some of the skill sets from working in potentially high intensity professions like corporate careers, and that kind of stuff, where they can then turn to those skill sets to help manage those things. So to me, it's, it's something where I agree survivorship biases here, I think there's also differential experiences when people enter the field at different ages, because I think that there's different things that you bring to the table.
Curt Widhalm 07:02
So one of the takeaways here, one of the action steps when it comes to using this kind of data is, if you're a younger therapists, feel free to reach out for some help. And if you have some capacity as an older therapist, as a supervisor, as a manager, you might notice this kind of stuff a little bit more being a risk factor with some of the younger therapists that you might be working with, if it's within your capacity to kind of check in with some of these early career therapists, younger therapists a little bit more to see how they're doing. This might be something that helps to alleviate and normalize some of the ways that we react to burnout rather than it just being kind of a well, we've all dealt with it at some point. Good luck kids sort of aspect.
Katie Vernoy 07:50
Yeah. I think the other piece, and this is something where it sounds like one in five respondents under 35 wouldn't choose their profession if they could start over. And so that potentially means that they are more likely to leave the profession, or they won't be the word of mouth to say, hey, being a therapist is cool. In our series of fixing mental health care in America, we referenced the RAND report and those types of things, where we're looking at what is needed in society. And we need more therapists, we need more mental health providers. And so as a manager, as a supervisor, as a professor, as someone who is potentially in a position to mentor or steward someone into the profession, or to succeed in the profession, you know, like help them out, it's our profession could really go the way of the dodo bird, if we don't have enough people that are actually entering the field.
Curt Widhalm 08:45
And there's things in this report that speak to this. And there's some things that Katie and I have discussed with a number of our episodes here before but the financial burdens on younger therapists these days are much higher than they have been in the last 40 years and costs of getting degrees is eight to 10 times higher than it was for people who got the same kinds of degrees in the 80s. Here's our annual shout out to saving psychotherapy by Dr. Ben Caldwell.
Katie Vernoy 09:18
But I think it's more than annual at this point.
Curt Widhalm 09:23
But something that is in this report is also the parental burnout that is likely going to be associated with younger therapists that younger therapists are going to tend to have younger kids, but we've talked about this in one of our previous episodes about just kind of the therapist, partner responsibilities sorts of things, but younger therapists tend to have younger kids biological demographically, that it's a lot harder to parent a infant to three year olds than it is going to be to parent a later teenager, when it comes to just self sufficiency sort of things. And those are going to be harder to parent than adults, kids who have launched out of the house and are fully independent on their own. And this is likely a contributing factor to part of this report from simple practice here just about how much this parental burnout is contributing to people trying to balance the work that they do find the right space to be able to work from home and have kids in the other room, and how it affects their ability to work with clients.
Katie Vernoy 10:36
And I think that oftentimes, and we've seen this in the larger society, is we do have a very feminized field. And we have another conversation to have about that. But a lot of women end up doing or, or a female identified folks end up doing parenting, that they end up being the ones that take that responsibility on. And so many folks who were required to do the parenting ended up either decreasing or leaving their work in order to do that during the pandemic. And oftentimes, it's very hard to kind of go back from that, whether it's with, you know, with a private practice, you can kind of add clients and stuff like that. But I think with within our field, it's not as easy just to kind of pop in and out of jobs. Because there there are different kind of parameters that people are looking at. And work gaps oftentimes are very feared because of the impacts on clients. And so to me, I feel like being able to really understand who therapists are, and how life and society are impacting them is very important, because we want to support people, all people with all situations being able to be therapists, because if we don't, we don't have the lived experience that a lot of our clients need.
Curt Widhalm 11:51
Shifting to chapter two of this report on talking about the state of insurance, and looking at insurance regulations and barriers in the insurance system that's making it stressful and expensive for clinicians to take insurance. There's a number of quotes that are listed in here. Things like current insurance, reimbursement and time spent with billing are driving people away from accepting insurance. And I fully resonate with that kind of stuff. Currently, insurance reimbursements and time spent with billing are driving people away from accepting insurance. I know I can resonate with that you take insurance, you might have a little bit more of a background into this year.
Katie Vernoy 12:37
I think for insurance, there is a double edged sword to it a little bit because there is the reimbursement and time spent that's that's awful, right. In some places it is improving, I think there is room for negotiation, different states have different insurance, reimbursement rates that actually are more aligned with cost of living California is pretty awful. But I think other states kind of do better with that. The thing that I'm really seeing related to insurance, and I don't know that it's necessarily addressed in this report, but I think you and I've talked about potentially doing another episode on this is that there are large provider networks slash group providers that are negotiating directly with insurance companies and bringing on therapists to kind of take away all of that. But that means that that can increase availability of insurance. for insurance providers, I think there's a lot of folks who are worried that if they don't take insurance, that they won't be able to have a full caseload, there's access issues. And yet, with the state of the insurance right now, at least as I perceive it, it just isn't sustainable to do a full insurance practice on your own in some areas. Because there's there is all that oversight, there is the negotiation that you want to continue to do with insurance companies to get your rates increased. There's a lot of chasing things down. And if you don't want to have a biller that can be onerous, and create a lot of that busy work that is inane and exhausting. And so to me, I feel like I think we're going to be seeing a shift and how clients access therapy when they want to use insurance. And I think that providers who are in private practice may end up at best having a hybrid practice, at worst may not really be able to be competitive, and consistent with other types of therapists that are providing insurance or that are using insurance because of some of these systems that some of these kind of things are that are being built up about it. But I know you and I have talked about doing a whole other episode on kind of the future of and the commoditization of therapy and kind of large companies taking over the healthcare space, including therapy. So I'll leave that there. But I think that there has been for me anyway, there's been a big need to be able to provide insurance because people were struggling financially. I think that's not necessarily really the case in the economy didn't really have the tank that people thought it was going to. But it is a lot more work for a lot less pay. And so I think there's going to be a mismatch unless clients start going to these bigger providers that are willing to take on all of the burden and have therapists do that just do the therapy. So more to discuss there. But I think insurance is still going to be a big player in mental health. It's just whether or not kind of you and me as private practitioners are going to be involved in that at all.
Curt Widhalm 15:30
I think geographically, this has a long known place in our fields that appear in large, wealthy urban areas, there's less of a pressure to take insurance. And as a state of the profession report points out said places where it might be more rural, specifically pointed in this report is like the Midwest, where it's significantly more clinicians who would have to be on insurance panels. And the numbers here in the report say that 75% of clinicians who responded to the survey in the Midwest are on an insurance panel, compared to a national average of 64%. So regionally, this is going to affect some people more than others. And those people who are on insurance panels are also the ones who were reporting that they're taking more clients than they feel that they can handle right now. 30% compared to only 19% of those who do not accept insurance. So just putting some numbers to what you're talking about here. We do have a episode coming out here in the next couple of months that we'll be talking about some of this stuff like Katie previewed here as well. Chapter Three, state of technology. I think most of us are going to be doing at least some telehealth continuing on.
Katie Vernoy 16:47
Yeah, we'll link to CAMFT, the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists did a similar report and talked about, you know, kind of telehealth and that shift and the pandemic. And the majority of providers were not doing telehealth prior to the pandemic, you know, or not doing a significant amount of telehealth, and now the majority of providers are going to keep telehealth. And so I think that's actually great. I was doing telehealth prior, I think you were too maybe a little bit of telehealth as well. And it's nice to have a hybrid practice. And so, in the simple practice report, it says only 2% are not going to continue offering telehealth and I know that there are definitely therapists who absolutely hate it, I see you Ofra. And I also know that there are people who absolutely adore it and want to do 100% telehealth because they don't want the overhead of an office. And so we talked about this and post pandemic practice. But I think that there is a lot of access, convenience, different types of therapy you can do with telehealth that may be very accessible for folks, or beneficial for folks so that you can kind of keep a practice that has a little bit more opportunity for you. I guess.
Curt Widhalm 17:59
One of the things that simple practice report points out that we haven't talked about yet is the infrastructure problem of good internet. And this being a issue across the country of being able to have good enough internet to have regular, good quality video Sessions is a problem that many people face. And while this is definitely a necessity for reaching clients in those areas that a lot of these telehealth laws are designed to help those who can't be reached by clinicians that there's too few mental health workers who are there. It's a necessity, and really to continue to build and provide on our national mental health system, telehealth is going to have to be a cornerstone of it. But it goes hand in hand with the ability to have good internet in those places. We're no better if those people cell phone coverage. If it sucks, and you're only hearing every fifth word, it's more frustrating to be on it than it is to not really be a part of the conversation at all. And the same thing is gonna be happening with our our telehealth here that we're reliant on getting good internet to people in those places in the first place. And some of the clinicians responding to this report are facing that on the delivery end to that further places a burden on those clinicians and a further frustration for them.
Katie Vernoy 19:30
Yeah, I think we did talk about this a little bit in the conversation with the RAND folks and I, I feel like the call to action in this regard is maybe identifying and understanding any kind of laws or infrastructure around internet so that we can actually provide better coverage for mental health care, because I think that would that would make a huge difference. So before we close up, I do want to circle back to something a little bit earlier in the report, because I think it is important to look at and it's it's something that I think was very resonant for me. And it also, I think I have a personal response to it because of the way that my practice is evolving. And, you know, I am currently a hybrid practice but may not continue to take insurance, which then would would impact this for me, but looking at who are therapists, demographically, when we look at 66, and older 95% are white clinicians, 3% are other and 2% are black, when we go down to 35, or under, so people who are aged 35 and under, it's still inordinately more white people, it is 77%. But now we're up to 7% black therapist, 4% Asian therapists, 4% Hispanic therapists and 7% other therapists, and there is an increase in diversity with newer therapists. This is exciting. And I hope that trend continues. Because I think that there's a need to have more lived experience opportunities for clients and folks that can, you know, people will go to therapy, if they see that therapist look like them. I think the thing that I'm I'm looking at, as well is in this next part, it says that 53% of white clinicians reported not working with any underserved populations. And so there's a few things that I'm drawing from this one is white people are generally working with rich white people. I think. And I guess it doesn't talk about in this section, it doesn't talk about demographics. But I'm also thinking about income potential because of reimbursement rates from insurance, I'm thinking about access. And you know, if we have so few therapists that are black, Asian, Hispanic, or I guess it says other specialty, so I don't know if that what that means on this report. But I think if we don't, if we don't support our younger clinicians, with that have a larger, you know, it's a more diverse population of therapists. Access for some of these underserved populations and simple practice lists them as low income or unsecured clients, LGBTQ population, Medicaid recipients, populations with disabilities, and veterans. If we don't address both the access issues, as well as the diversity issues, I think mental health stays broken.
Curt Widhalm 22:36
As you're talking about this, I'm looking at some of these comparisons here. And well, not quite to the same extremes, I'm seeing some very similar trends with Asian therapists, as white therapists have not working with as many of the underserved populations, black and Hispanic therapists seem to have similar numbers to each other. Just by comparison here, and looking at traditionally where the demographics of these two different groups come from that we've known historically, that way therapists, as you pointed out, tend to come from wealthier backgrounds to start with. And this gets maybe even into some of the model minority influences that has led to Asian therapists into some of the same similar trends, I don't know that would be kind of the area where I would want to research more into this to see if that's where that trend comes from. But speaking to black and Hispanic therapists, what we do know as far as trends go, is that a lot of white therapists enter into this field because they had a good experience with therapy, typically as a child or as a young adults that led them into this fields, whereas a lot of the research that's emerging about black and Hispanic therapists is that they're entering into this field because they didn't have those good experiences, and are more likely to be returning back to working with the communities that would be underserved in the first place. And so the motivations for entering into the profession are quite different. Just from the get go on this. Yeah. As I'm also hearing you talk, one of the thoughts that I had is going back to the burnout question, and especially around age groups. This is also a year with a tremendous amount of social justice action, which tends to be things that younger people are involved with in the first place. And before anybody shoots us off an email or complains on social media to us. I'm not saying that older people don't but statistically, yes, younger people are the ones who are more involved in these social justice movements, which has been a huge emotional piece of this last Last year for a lot of the world, but especially here in the United States. And so if you add the social justice burden on top of everything else that we've already discussed, I can see how that's potentially another factor that can be explained in this report or that isn't specifically called out in this report.
Katie Vernoy 25:21
I agree. I think there's so much that younger therapists clinicians of color, especially have been facing in the past year given, especially the racial injustices that have been increased or spotlighted this year. And so I think that has to go hand in hand with some of these other types of burnout that people were experiencing. And so call to action here, I think is take care of each other. I don't know. I mean, it seems like this is a pretty systemic issue.
Curt Widhalm 25:58
There is a summary at the end of this report. Now, what comes next. And this is even where some practices wording on this. And the challenge with kind of this institutional support is not really been clear of what it is. You know, I see Dr. Caldwell floated here directly, but I just know from a lot of our conversations with him that a lot of this whole section has his fingerprints all over it.
Katie Vernoy 26:29
Thanks, Ben.
Curt Widhalm 26:30
Yeah, there's, there's no quoting here, there's no way to put the industry on pause. People are always going to need mental health care. We can't tell people stop coming to therapy. Well, we just reorganize what we do. Yeah. And we do, as a field end up placing so much emphasis on individual responsibility for things like self care. And self care has been hard, especially if you're in one of those groups that we've been talking about the you know, do you have kids, it's not like you can like, keep the babysitter an extra couple of hours during the pandemic here. Like if you're overworked, seeing a bunch of clients and having the parental responsibilities in the background and the educational responsibilities of teaching them from online school and all of that kind of stuff. Back to Caldwell does, but that, as far as getting some structural fixes, means having laws, policies and practices insured, fair and timely reimbursements, things that make telehealth care easier, and enables providers to lead more balanced lives. I will point back to the presentation that we did right before the pandemic, at the foundations of connection conference in Hawaii, about some of the structural self care things too. And if you're in a place of influence within your organization, or even if this just means for yourself, of being able to really help create systems around nice closures to your workday, having a balanced flow throughout your work week. These are things that can be applied on both the micro and the macro levels. But just Dr. Caldwell suggesting here. We do need some systemic influential changes when it comes to things like insurance, and our ability to continue to practice here.
Katie Vernoy 28:27
So I'm looking forward to kind of continuing the conversation on what's next. I think that there's a lot of innovative things that are exciting, and they're innovative, things that are terrifying, that are coming about that may impact some of these areas for good or for ill. And I think that there are opportunities for advocacy that may come out of the huge mental health need that we're seeing at this time. And so if you haven't started listening to our series on fixing mental healthcare in America, I would suggest that we'll link to it in the show notes. We'll also put the structural self care, or I think it's structuring self care. I don't know what the podcast title is, but we'll put some links to some of the relevant episodes, as well as this report and the camp's report in the show notes. But really, what this is saying is, this is hard. We know it's hard. We're gonna keep doing therapy because people need therapy. But let's see if we can find ways to support ourselves but also fix the system.
Curt Widhalm 29:30
You can find our show notes at mtsgpodcast.com, follow us on our social media. And till next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.
Katie Vernoy 29:38
Thanks again to our sponsor, simple practice.
Curt Widhalm 29:41
Simple practice is the leading private practice management platform for private practitioners everywhere. More than 100,000 professionals use simple practice to power telehealth sessions schedule appointments, file insurance claims market, their practice and so much more. All on one HIPAA compliant platform.
Katie Vernoy 29:59
Get your first two months of simple practice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today, this exclusive offer is valid for new customers only. Please note that we are a paid affiliate for a simple practice I will give a little bit of money in our pocket if you sign up at this link simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. And that's where you can learn more.
Curt Widhalm 30:20
This episode is also sponsored by green oak accounting.
Katie Vernoy 30:24
Green oak accounting specializes in working with therapists and private practice and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly service options that can be catered to a practices needs, from basic bookkeeping to premium CFO services. Other specialized services include profit, first support, compensation planning, and customized KPI dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
Curt Widhalm 30:55
If you're interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at greenoakaccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Announcer 31:05
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Modern Therapist’s Consumer Guide on SimplePractice Curt and Katie talk with Howard Spector, CEO and Diana Stepner, VP of Product for SimplePractice. We look at how SimplePractice has been envisioned, the company values, and the details of the product, so you can decide if SimplePractice is the Practice Management System for your private practice.
This is the Modern Therapist Consumer Guide, a series of special episodes to help modern therapists navigate products and services specifically designed for therapists and their clients. We dig deeply into the companies, the people, and the products and services so you can make smart decisions in building your practice and serving your clients.
Interview with Howard Spector, CEO and Diana Stepner, VP of Product, SimplePractice Howard is the CEO and Co-founder of SimplePractice. Howard has over 20 years of experience in the information technology industry. He is proud to have earned his MA in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Depth Psychology at Pacifica Graduate Institute.
Diana joined SimplePractice from Pearson where she was the VP of Innovative Learning Solutions, a portfolio of products that provide value anytime, anywhere for learners by increasing confidence & outcomes associated with a specific learning activity or skill. Previously Diana headed up Future Technologies and Innovation Partnerships at Pearson. She also worked in Emerging Media at Razorfish and User Experience at Salesforce.com. In addition, Diana led Product Management in Western Europe for Monster Worldwide. She has a MIMS from UC Berkeley and an MBA from Boston University. When not doing Product, Diana can be found exercising, listening to podcasts, nutrition / health / wellness, and travel (someday). She lives in San Francisco with her husband and attack puppy.
In this episode we talk about: Interview with Howard Spector, CEO, SimplePractice * 2:12: How did the vision for SimplePractice (SP) come into being? * 4:17: What is the trajectory for SimplePractice? * 6:25: How does SP take in feedback and remain true to their principles and values from which it began? * 9:12: What is SP’s response to feedback about customer service? * 15:31: How does the team atmosphere and culture play out for customers? * 19:41: How does SimplePractice support Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion? * 22:12: What is in the future for SP? * 23:18: What is Howard most proud for about SP? * 25:10: What does Howard want everyone considering SP for their practice management system need to know?
Interview with Diana Stepner, VP of Product, SimplePractice * 26:32: What does it look like when someone signs up for SimplePractice? * 28:54: What are the strongest elements of SimplePractice? * 30:24: What are SP’s paperwork customization features? * 34:04: What is the professional website feature? * 35:07: What is Monarch? * 38:01 What are some areas SimplePractice is looking to improve? * 40:17: How has SP taken suggestions from the community and incorporated them into SimplePractice? * 41:56: Who is SimplePractice NOT right for? * 44:35: What is coming up next for SimplePractice’s development? * 45:54: How do you sign up for SimplePractice? (includes information on our special offer) * 46:19: How would you recommend people investigating if SimplePractice is a good fit for them?
Curt and Katie Chat – Our review of SimplePractice * 47:31: Who would we recommend SimplePractice for? * 52:05: Who we think would not be a good match for SimplePractice * 53:19: Our recommendations and the special considerations for using SimplePractice to get the maximum benefit
SimplePractice Special Offer: Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
Relevant Links:
Howard Spector on The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Investing in Yourself as an Entrepreneur
SimplePractice Facebook Community
SimplePractice Community Forum
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:01
This is the Modern Therapist's Consumer Guide, a series of special episodes to help modern therapists navigate products and services specifically designed for therapists and their clients.
Katie Vernoy 00:11
We dig deeply into the companies, the people, and the products and services so you can make smart decisions in building your practice and serving your clients.
Announcer 00:21
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:37
Hey, Modern Therapists, I'm Curt Widhalm with my co host, Katie Vernoy. And this first episode of the Modern Therapist's Consumer Guide is on SimplePractice. Simple practice is an all in one practice management system. And this episode is for modern therapists who would like to know more about this company, and or who are researching electronic health records and practice management systems.
Katie Vernoy 01:00
We have a ton of good information on simple practice in this episode, feel free to listen to our interviews as well as our review at the end. Or if you have specific questions, check out the show notes where we're going to have timestamps, so that you can get specific pieces of information for whatever decision that you're making. You can also check out the show notes on our resources page for a special offer from simple practice to our listeners.
Curt Widhalm 01:24
We're gonna be joined today by Howard Spector, the CEO of SimplePractice, and he's going to be discussing the vision for where they've been, where they started, and where they're going to go. And we're also going to spend some time to discuss some of the features of their system. Take a listen. We are joined by SimplePractice, founder and CEO, Howard Spector. And this is such a phenomenal company, having seen it be able to grow, I remember back when you were coming around to little neighborhood therapist meetings, and just really starting to bring out the idea of what simple practice can be and what it was going to be. But can you tell us how your vision for simple practice came into being?
Howard Spector 02:16
Yeah, well, first, thanks for having me. It's always great talking with both of you. I do remember those meetings, they were local CAMFT, Chapter meetings, and I would get up in the morning and, you know, get all of our marketing stuff. And it was, you know, I look back on that kind of fondly, like where it started what I had to do to get this business going. But anyway, was the question again? how did how did the idea for simple practice come into being? Okay? So, the short answer is that I went back to graduate school later in my career, to become a therapist, and I went through the, you know, I don't know why people know, the whole story of I invented this product called TrackYourHours to track all my training hours. And that did pretty well. And when I was almost done with all of my training, I started looking at practice management products, because I wanted to find something that I can use to run my practice. And, you know, at the time, there just really wasn't something out there that I felt really connected to, that would really serve my needs and how I wanted to run my business. So that really was plant the planting of the seed where I thought maybe I could build something that would be more in line with how I want to work. And that idea just kind of rattled around in my unconscious for a while. And then one day, it just kind of came out and hit me like, Okay, I think I know how I want to build this. And I partnered up with someone who was more on the technology side of things, and we just started, you know, wireframing the product out and figuring out how we wanted it to work, and just sort of building it. So it was really one of those things where the motivation behind starting this business wasn't because I thought, Oh, I want to build a business and make a lot of money or make money. It was really, I just needed a product that I could use for myself. And I thought about a lot of the people that I did training with, and went to school with, and I just to me it was like, Well, how can I build something that they would really like and enjoy it as well and make it easy for them to run their practices. So that was really the beginning of this whole journey.
Katie Vernoy 04:16
And it started with some I'm assuming pretty basic and has grown into a all in one product. Talk a little bit about what the trajectory is what what simple practice is right now?
Howard Spector 04:28
Well, I'll tell you where it just really briefly where it started and how it started. So I made a lot of really, I made a lot of assumptions, You know what they say about assumptions. You have to start with something and my initial idea for this was we're going to build a practice management system, very simple for solo practitioners only. And for folks that only take cash or don't take insurance basically. So no groups, no insurance. And so we built that and we launched That. And we very quickly realized a couple things. One was, that was a mistake. Because there was a lot of folks that really, that were that had group practices, whether that just means two people or more, that really liked what we had built and wanted to be able to use it and couldn't. And the other thing was, there were a lot of people that were taking insurance. And they, you know, didn't like the fact that we couldn't process that through our, our platform, our product. So what happened was, we launched it, we got some customers, it was great. And we started getting feedback immediately. And so we basically, I was so naive, I thought, I will launch this, and we'll be on our way. But what it really happened was, you know, we're eight years into, you know, continuing to develop this platform, it's nonstop, you know, there's always new things to do. When you first arrive first thought about it, I thought, well, you know, scheduling, billing and payments, how hard can that be? But what I really realized as like, you know, as a mirror to life, right? There's, it's all about the nuance, it's all about those details. And, you know, you don't really know a lot of those things until you start embarking on that journey. And, again, we started getting more feedback, we started learning more things about how people worked and what they wanted. And then you need this, you need that. So it really has, it's been a constant journey of development since 2012, when we first started the company.
Curt Widhalm 06:24
And you're getting that kind of feedback, and growing and managing an ever growing team, as you add on things like the insurance, billing, and even new divisions like simple practice learning. How do you take that feedback yet and stay true to your principles and values from where you started?
Howard Spector 06:46
First and foremost, you know, I want to please everybody, which is the recipe for success from the you know, I mean, you hear someone they want something, you want to add it, because if you don't, they're gonna be mad, and I don't want to have people mad at me, right. So there's a lot of, you know, therapy sessions, you can tie into all this, for me, just figuring out how to create boundaries and stuff. But we, you know, we have a very vocal customer base. And that's a great thing. I mean, cuz companies would, like, really, they really want that. But it's hard also, because people are pretty relentless. But we're here to serve them. And we're here, you know, people pay us a monthly fee, because our job is to continue to iterate on this all the time and evolve our product for them, not just, hey, we deliver a static product, and we're done. But keep paying us anyway. So we get a lot of feedback through a lot of different channels, you know, we have a Facebook community page, which is, you know, gets a lot of, you know, activity, we have another whole community forum area, we have through our customer success team, you know, there's a lot of feedback that comes into them. And so there's, there's a lot of inbound information that then. And we look at all of it, and we have a user voice, it's a product that allows people to post ideas they have they want to see in the product, and other people can vote on those things. So as you get feature requests, or things that have a lot of votes to them, you know, those can you start looking at those more seriously. And you want to be able to do everything, but you can't, and that what part of the challenge is explaining to people why you can't do something, what they say is, well, it's just a button, just add this button, you know, what they realize is there's a whole complex, it's like, talking with someone that's got, you know, some serious, you know, challenges in their life. And you're saying, well, just, you know, go start running, you know, that'll fix it, or whatever. So to solve it. Yeah. So there's, you know, it's hard, because, again, we're here to serve people, and they don't want to hear excuses. And we don't want to give them excuses. But the reality is, we want everybody to be happy. And we want to give everyone what they want. It's just impossible to do. And if we built everything that everyone asked for our product would be an absolute mess. So it really is a matter of us really looking at the requests that are coming in through all these different channels, and deciding, you know, which ones are the most urgent, right? And then also which ones are going to have the greatest impact for the most people. And that's, again, I'm simplifying the process. But that's so some way that we go about, like going through all the the incoming feedback and figuring out what to do or what not to do.
Katie Vernoy 09:12
One of the specific pieces of feedback that seems to plague simple practice is this idea that there's not solid customer service. And we've actually talked about this before when you came on to the podcast previously. And we can link to that in the notes here. So people can learn about your kind of business prowess there. But there's certainly feedback on customer service. So I'd love to have you address that. And there's also other types of feedback that comes through you. I think you use the word relentless. What are your responses to those? Because I think that there's the cific things that seem to keep being kind of a thorn in simple practices side, especially around customer service.
Howard Spector 09:55
Well, so I'm not sure it's hard for me to answer that because I would be more specific information because then you simply don't have solid customer service. Because I'm what I think about is, we have, like, we have these things called CSAT scores, or customer satisfaction scores that are collected by when people do get support, they're allowed to rate the support, our cset scores are consistently in the mid 90th percentile, which is pretty remarkable. And that, you know, that is consistent over time, even during when the COVID pandemic started, and we saw a massive increase in the amount of people that were signing up, we maintain the scores, we also have what we call NPS scores. So people get these emails or messages from us, that basically say, hey, how likely are you to recommend simple practice to a friend and it's on a scale of like, one to 10. And it's like, it's, it's a, it's broken up into, like, you know, I think seven to 10 are promoters, and people that will promote civil practice, etc. So, our NPS scores are also like in the 60s and 70s, which is remarkable. For any kind of business. I mean, those are massively high scores, because the scoring goes to like negative 100, to 100. So there's always going to be a time where people aren't happy with certain things, and what happens typically, especially on Facebook, which is why I deleted my facebook account, you get, you know, it's like the squeaky wheel, you get one person out there that's unhappy with something, and then you get the whole barrage of people kind of, you know, tail tailing on that thing, and then it escalates into this whole shitshow of complaints against something. And most of the time, there's, the complaints are based upon erroneous information, you know, or limited information. And I think that is important for what I would love to be able to tell everyone is like, you know, we're here for you, it's like, our intention is to, like, do good and help you and do the right thing. And so many times, it's really fascinating to me, and it makes me angry, just on a human level that people default to the negative, like, what are they trying to do? And why aren't they doing this and like, like, we're out to get them in some way, which is completely opposite of what we're all trying to do. So I know that there's, we can always do better in everything, you know, personally and professionally. Believe me, I my focus is like I'm the worrier. And chief here, I look at all the things that we can do better, with customer success, which is what we call our group not support, we call it customer success. I think the biggest issues that have come up that I've been aware of are these talks about the ability to have phone support. Yeah. And to me, that's a recurring thing that comes up. And there's again, this this erroneous narrative, it's perpetuated from some of our competitors, that we don't have phone support, which is not true, we do have phone support, it's just it's not 24, seven on demand inbound support, it's something where you make an appointment, someone on our team will get on a video share with you or like, you know, screenshare, whatever they need to help you with what you need to do. And I know it sounds defensive, but it's not. It's the reality, like if we went and if we provide phone support, and I think we will provide it at some point, we're looking at some things right now, we want to make sure it's a good experience. Some of our competitors provide phone support, but we call those lines and you sit on hold, saying you have it just to say you have it is not how we want to operate our business, we want to have integrity around what we do, not implying they don't, I'm just talking about us, we want to have integrity around what we do. If we provide something like phone support, for example, we want it to be a really good experience. And for the low price point of which we charge for simple practice. It's unrealistic to think that we can support 10s of 1000s of customers with on demand 24, seven inbound phone support. It's just unsustainable, in some ways, but again, we're looking into things right now, hopefully, we can provide something in addition to make an appointment at a time that's convenient for you. And somebody will work with you directly to help you out. We also have chat, that happens a lot. So you don't you're not on the phone. But you can live chat with people and a whole bunch of other ways that we do support. So I think our support, it's one of the most proud things I am about our company. I've worked a lot of companies in my life. And customer success or customer support in most businesses is usually this cost, you know, this cost center that's relegated to the back room. It's this part of the company that is an afterthought for a lot of people. And I never thought that way about it for this for this business. Because, you know, our customers are the most important thing. So, you know, we've really been intentional, you know, mindful, thoughtful about that team, that that group on our team, and who we hire, you know, how they work what they do. That's something that I believe we have a world class customer success team, despite the fact that people are going to be annoyed at sometimes that's just the nature of business and it's going to happen, but it's an unbelievable group of people. I wish that I could let people that are complaining about things no, like, each one of these people's an individual that comes to work every day, like, deeply cares about the mission that we're on the work that we're doing to support our customers. It's hard sometimes to see the shit that they take from people that are frustrated. But what I tell them is, hey, look, a lot of our customers are they work solo, you know, their job is to kind of be a container for their clients. And they're holding a lot. And like, sometimes we're just in the line of fire for to help them kind of unload some stuff.
Curt Widhalm 15:31
One of the things that Katie and I have, we're both simple practice users in our practices and have been for quite a while. We've obviously known Howard for quite a while we've known several of his staff for several years, and we've developed some of those personal relationships to actually see some of your employees on that more personal level. For those of us who aren't Katie and I, you really do create this warm, welcoming space, and as your company has evolved, you're so really able to keep that personal touch going, how does that team atmosphere really play out for the customers that makes it to where it's a really integrated flow from you as a very personal CEO, out to the solo therapists that's, you know, maybe in the middle of nowhere, who's able to still feel that care and comfort.
Howard Spector 16:29
I think that we've worked very hard here. And we always do. And it's a nonstop ongoing process to create a great culture. And a lot of companies talk, like they use the culture word. They say, yeah, we have a great culture. But what does it mean? You know? And do you really and how, how committed to it, are you we spent a lot of time talking about culture, we have a whole culture and values deck that we require people to read while they're interviewing with us to understand so they can understand what is it like to work here? Like, what are our what are our culture and values. And these aren't things that are just written on a piece of paper. And I think that's one of the things that differentiates us, at least in my experience, and other companies that I've worked out. It's, we believe in all this stuff, we update this culture and values deck, you know, we, because some things we realize maybe weren't communicated the right way or something's wrong, whatever. It's an iterative, ongoing, document, the living document. And I think I really believe that because we care so deeply about the culture here, to provide a place for people to work that is supportive and collaborative, and human, you know, that, that just ends up translating to our customers. It's amazing to watch, like, how, like, during the pandemic, when everything first hit, and we got slammed, how people stepped up to help each other. They want to cry right now. It's like, it's like, there's such a sense of camaraderie and helpful collaboration with the people at this company. And it's just who they are. And so that, to me, that just gets translated to everything we do. And part of my job is to make sure that as we grow, you know, it's a slippery slope, once you start letting one thing slide, you're done. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's like an ongoing process of hyper vigilance, I say, it's like, you're just making sure that even down to the language in some cases, like how we talk, how we talk with one another, like what we do and how we think about, you know, our marketing materials, and what are we trying to say, it's showing our customers, the people here, and being able to say, when you are part of our community, when you're, you know, we using simple practice, you've got all these people that work at this company that are working for you, you know, that's a pretty cool message that I love that image, it's like, Look, while you're sleeping, while you're doing something else, we're working to help make your life better through through how you manage your practice. And I totally believe that it's in the DNA of this company. And you know, when you have, I think, when you really believe that and you really act on that on an ongoing moment by moment basis, you know, it translates out and it filters out to our customers.
Katie Vernoy 19:14
I think that's so important. I know that in times when I've worked in other organizations that did not have that type of clarity on culture, or the culture was really toxic. I think that does translate out to clients customers, like I think it it's hard for that not to be kind of transmitted along and and I really appreciate that. And I like the thoughtfulness with how you've put that together. One of the values that that Curt and I have infused into our business and our work is is in looking at the team and looking at how you put things together and the thoughtfulness that you're describing. There's diversity, equity and inclusion. And so narrowing a little bit into that specific arena, how do you support diversity, equity inclusion throughout simple practice?
Howard Spector 20:05
I've always been very proud of you know, if you go to our team page and look at our team page, you're gonna see a wide variety of people, we've got an amazing mix of people here. And I'm incredibly proud of that. It's not by overt, like, we didn't go out and say, we've got to go do this. It's just, you hire great people, and great people come from all different backgrounds and experiences. So I've, it's always been just that, yeah, just be open to any any anyone who's a good person, regardless of all those other things. And I think that when the whole George Floyd thing happened, which I know that that was just one representative moment in a much, much larger, longer, you know, thing, but I don't mean to minimize it by using that word, you know, that really raised the conversation in the company. And there were people in the company who were actually newer in the company, who were, who actually came in during the pandemic, so they really hadn't been acculturated in the way other people had. They said that we need to do more, you know, there weren't enough, you know, Black people in the company. And we could do better. And my answer is like, Okay, well, yeah, of course, we can always do better, you know, how, let's talk about the specifics that we can do around that. So for example, that one of the things that I thought about was, you know, are we looking for candidates in places in different places? Like, where, where do we post jobs? What kind of recruiters do we work with? How do we basically improve the diversity of the candidates that we're getting, so the pool that we're at, basically, choosing from is more more diverse. So there's things like that, and there's more that we're working on internally, as a company to make sure that we're really paying attention to these things, I guess, less unconsciously and more like, consciously. But, you know, again, to me, it's like, I've just always felt like we're very open and inclusive company, and we want to hire really great people. And it doesn't matter the color of your skin or anything, it's just come work here with a bunch of great people.
Curt Widhalm 22:12
We've seen simple practice, grow. Where is simple practice going from here, what's in the future for simple practice?
Howard Spector 22:20
There's actually some things right now that have gotten me incredibly excited, and almost re energized for the business, because of the next evolution of what we're doing. And how we're supporting our customers, there's some really important things we're going to be rolling out that are going to help people with their practices. But aside from that, there's constant work that needs to happen to the existing, you know, the platform the way it is, I think there's a lot of what I call product debt that we've developed over the years, that we're in the process right now of, you know, our workflows, as intuitive as they can be. Not all of them are, you know, there's some things in the product that are confusing the people that we know about, you know, at some point, you look back, you sit back, and you're like, wow, you know, that's, that's getting a little crazy, we got to we got to, we got to come back and, and, and reorder some of these things in the settings area, and stuff like that. So we're investing a lot of time right now in that, in addition to just adding new things, and some other things as well.
Katie Vernoy 23:18
What are you most proud of?
Howard Spector 23:20
I think I'm most proud of the culture and the company that we've created here, just again, to watch how the people here work, how they work with each other, how they support each other, how much they're bought into the mission of our business, which is to support, you know, health and wellness professionals, that most proud of that, when I see you, we have a meeting every Friday with a whole company, and different folks from different groups in the company present things that they're working on, or things that they're doing. And I just stand back kind of in awe of watching all these amazing people digging so deeply into the work that they're doing to try to make everything better for our customers. That is, it's an unbelievable, because in the beginning, it was just me and me and Ralph, you know, it's like me and Ralph and Fletcher, and then me, Ralph, and you know, Jessica, then me, Ralph, Fletcher, Jessica, and Will, you know, so it's really, it's been amazing to watch the evolution of the business. And now we're at 100. And I think 70 or 180 people in this company, which is unbelievable to me. And watch how deeply everybody cares not just about one another, but about our customers. That's the most proud of. And also, I think just on top of that is, you know, when I sit back and I think about the clinicians of professionals out there that are using simple practice, and what they're dealing with on a daily basis, and they were there hopefully to help them and in our small way, do the work that they're doing, which is, you know, healing the world kind of one patient client at a time. That's a pretty awesome, pretty awesome thing to think about in terms of you know, we've built This platform that helps people do that work, or run the business so they can do the work that they're doing. That's pretty awesome to me to think about that.
Katie Vernoy 25:09
So what do you want everyone considering simple practice for their practice management needs... What do you want them to know?
Howard Spector 25:17
We're a group of with people that are very dedicated to the success of our customers, you know, and to support them, and to build out products and services, to help them do the work that they do. We do our best to do that. And I would just to be honest, because I feel like I have to be honest and say that, like our platform isn't for everybody. There's a lot of choices out there, which is, I think, a good thing. And I think that I always encourage people to try ours, try some other ones. And really ask yourself, you know, which one of these Am I going to want to spend time with to build my business? Hopefully, you know, we'll find that simple practices, the right fit. Not always. And that's cool. You know, we work very hard for our customers all the time. And we have an amazing team of people that are here support everybody.
Katie Vernoy 26:06
Switching gears a little bit, let's dive deeply into the specific features of simple practice.
Curt Widhalm 26:12
And we are joined by Diana Stepner and she is the Vice President of Product at SimplePractice. And thank you for joining us and sharing some of the cool things that you've got going on over there. Yeah, really excited to be here. Thank you very much for having me on the podcast.
Katie Vernoy 26:28
Yeah. So excited to have you here. So the first question that I want to dive into, because I think there's a lot of, there's probably a lot of folks that are looking for their practice management system, their electronic health record, like they're, they're just getting started. And so if we could get an overview, like the benefits and options included in the simple practice, practice management system, kind of the basics, as well as the upgrades that would be helpful, just so folks have a base idea of what are we looking at when somebody signs on to simple practice?
Diana Stepner 27:04
Great. Yeah, so our entry level product, our basic product is called essential, we have an amazing calculator that's on the simple practice comm slash pricing site. So folks can get a great understanding of you know, what's included, and the configurations that go from there. It's awesome in regards to all the features that a solo clinician would need. And so it's got online payment, it has free appointment reminders, it's got diagnosis and treatment plans, it has unlimited clients, there's a client portal, there's paperless intake, and all of that is, you know, focused on helping the clinician be as successful as they possibly can be, and not have to worry about all the backend operational aspects that simple practice powers. We also have upgrades. So we know people are very interested in telehealth. So that is an upgrade that's available to you can also add on Wiley planners, if that's of interest to people. And then the professional website is available, as is monarch, which is our new marketplace that launched recently. And then for folks that are looking for, you know, multiple clinician access or additional capabilities, we have a further plan, which is called professional, it's there for those who want to, you know, have more capabilities available for them or have a larger practice more clients that they're seeing already. And in all cases, you know, the focus of simple practice is to enable the clinicians throughout their career. And so we also have offerings, you know, that align with the pre licensed clinicians, and all the way through to ongoing education and areas that they want to explore just to keep their their learning on par, for example, through SimplePractice Learning,
Curt Widhalm 28:53
What are the strongest elements of the simple practice platform, how you really stand out compared to the rest of the crowd?
Diana Stepner 29:01
And it's actually what brought me to simple practice, I mean, simple practice is designed very thoroughly. And the focus has always been on giving customers the ability to work in their own workflows, and not be stuck in one set process. So to truly be the best that they can be. And it's fully integrated. So the capabilities are all available in one simple practice offering. It's HIPAA compliant from the telehealth opportunity to which is an amazing advantage. And then when it comes down to features, we're really strong on the features the client portal with secure messaging, as well as paperless intake and online booking. And the ability to manage multiple clients and their care through one single log on. So we think all of that in an integrated experience really makes it beneficial and stands out from for clients who are seeking an opportunity that fits with them. The other pieces we offer free appointments and appointment reminders As we know, clinicians appreciate the convenience of the appointment reminders, especially when they're starting their practice.
Katie Vernoy 30:06
I know that appointment reminders definitely helped me with my attendance. Right. So I think that's great that that's included. I think sometimes there's, there's opportunities for organizations or platforms to kind of nickel and dime folks. And so having it all integrated, is really nice. One of my favorite things on simple practices, that paperwork customization, I use that all over the place. Can you tell us a little bit about paperwork? customization?
Diana Stepner 30:34
Yeah, I'm really excited that you like that. That's a great feature. And yeah, so it allows the clinician to be able to incorporate more elements about their practice to be able to stand out. And it really helps them again, adopt the paperwork to their workflow, as opposed to have to rethink how they're used to running their practice or want to run their practice.
Katie Vernoy 30:56
Yeah, there's both documents that you have within that people can edit. And you can also import your own documents. And then the thing that I think also stands out, maybe this isn't paperwork customization, but I've created a checkbox progress note, and I can design different custom progress notes, and it makes my paperwork much much quicker.
Diana Stepner 31:16
That's wonderful. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. And yeah, besides the paperwork, customization, which we know you guys are a fan of, there's also the comprehensive billing, you know, especially the insurance billing, that includes payment reports, as well as secondary claims, which is amazing. And then yeah, the streamlined client care also stands out, you know, the client portal, having all the capabilities which reflect and help people have that more polished online presence. So gets everybody started and looking good. And then yeah, just being able to take your practice on the go. I mean, we know people may not be going out as much as they used to, but people will always want to have their mobile device with them be able to go back and forth between the desktop and the mobile experience, which is where simple practice stands out with mobile apps for iOS, as well as Android. And then yeah, the online booking is a really a good feature that a lot of people rave about too. And having the initial screener in or, you know, using that as an initial screener interview just helps people be able to move to a paperless process.
Curt Widhalm 32:17
One of the things that I really like is the whole calendar system, both clients being able to book sessions, but also the two way integration that it has with other calendar programs. And I use this in in a few different ways, I give parents a little bit less, or a little bit shorter opportunities to speak with me on my calendar than having them book out full sessions, and I'll be needing to talk for 10 or 15 minutes. And I love that my personal calendars can help block out some of those sessions if I'm not able to get into the app too. But I'm sure that I am not even doing this part of it justice.
Katie Vernoy 32:57
I was thinking Kurt, are you actually using all of that cuz I, I have a doubt that you're using all of those things. I love the calendar. But I also, I just wanted when you were talking about kind of the mobile app, I have clients who are doing the telehealth with a mobile app. And then I also I was going to take a selfie, I might have to do this, but like I was out and about ready for my walk and talk session. And I got to the meeting spot early. And I was able to review my note on my phone, I didn't have to like plan ahead or any of that kind of stuff. So I think there is definitely a utility that I think a lot of other platforms don't have if they don't have an app.
Diana Stepner 33:39
Yeah, that, again, is the benefit of bringing all the pieces together in one place. And that provides more control for the commission. It allows catering to you know, whether they're growing their practice, you know, for example, and want to be able to use monarch to do so or they're managing their existing clients. And they're happy with the state that they're in today. And so again, the benefits of bringing it all together allows for that, that flexibility.
Katie Vernoy 34:03
Well, those are a couple of newer things: the monarch network as well as the professional website, so maybe you can tell us a little bit about that, because those are newer to us. And we're just getting started with those.
Diana Stepner 34:16
Yeah, no problem at all. And so I'll start with the professional website. So that was designed to provide a simple, clean foundation for clinicians to be able to tell the story about their practice and better engage with their client base. And it's fully integrated functionality. And so it offers ease of use by reflecting information from their simple practice account that they already have set up so they don't need to duplicate that effort. And it's a modern one page design that translates beautifully onto the web, as well as to mobile. And so that means you're always available and can you determine the connections that you want to have with your clients. And the new feature is available now for people To be able to use and it's part of the professional plants.
Katie Vernoy 35:04
That's great. And it like a month ago or less - and I guess when we put this out, it'll be a little bit longer - Monarch launched. And so what is that?
Diana Stepner 35:15
Yeah, so Monarch is where you can see clients online. And so you can see the availability, you can share the availability that you have with prospective clients, and then that enables easier booking right from one place. And so we learned that having that availability, visible to prospective clients was one of the critical ways that clinicians wanted to manage their their practices. And also from the client side, they wanted to know when they could connect with their clinician what times were available, instead of having to go that back and forth over email or chat to seen that in one place gave them great insight, so they can quickly make an appointment. And so we wanted to bring that to light, and be able to fill that gap between the client and clinician by offering that continuity of care. And so whether the therapy seeker wants to find a clinician or the clinician wants to be able to, you know, see individuals or actually may be at capacity and wants to refer individuals to another practice, all that is available within the monarch marketplace to be able to see those opportunities. And so monarch is looking to, you know, help address those issues in the community. In regards to how we define it, it's characterize as an online network, that's reimagining how clinicians connect with therapy seekers, and even their colleagues. And it's completely integrated into the clinicians existing simple practice account. So again, makes it easier to take advantage and just an extension of what they've already set up and are familiar with, within simple practice.
Katie Vernoy 37:00
So you don't have to like enter things 27 million times, if you put it into your profile, you already have your calendar that allows for scheduling if you're on one of the higher plans. And so you can basically have it as a front end marketing opportunity, so people can schedule with you, and they're scheduling directly into your simple practice calendar.
Diana Stepner 37:21
Yeah, that's an excellent, excellent way to describe it. And so we you know, from from all the feedback that we've received so far, and how it was thoughtfully designed, I mean, its goal is to simplify the sourcing of prospective clients, and then be able to help clinicians to maintain control over their online presence, because we know that that control is extremely important and want to ensure that that remains in the hands of the clinicians. And with the emphasis on what makes their practice unique being part of what's displayed on monarch, it also gives them the right presence, and helps ensure their correct matching, or the ideal matching between the client and the clinician.
Curt Widhalm 38:00
What are some of the areas that simple practice is working to improve?
Diana Stepner 38:05
Yeah, and so within the areas that we're looking to improve, we know with telehealth there was, you know, areas of opportunity that we wanted to make the product even better. And so there is a fresh new design. You know, speaking about mobile, we want to make sure that the mobile experience remains easy. And so there are improvements we've made with the mobile app that they're coming soon, as well as just the online experience. We've also introduced new in call features. So giving people have the ability to toggle between a grid and the speaker view helping them have more of that presence and have more control over how the telehealth session runs. The real time pre call network status just helping people understand what they're not at network status is so they have a better understanding if they need to move to another place or maybe turn off video because their network may not be at the optimum level at that point in time. And that goes back into even more areas of improvement around the call quality and the performance just helping to make the online the telehealth experience even better than it has been. Yeah and with with customer success, you know, we're providing customers a phone number to call in to receive automated guidance you know, for example, if they're having problems logging in, as well as we're providing phone numbers depending on the issues raised and a solution is practical over the phone so we want to make sure that it's the right right connection for a phone conversation. And we also do have live support so people can reach out over chat on Mondays through Fridays
Katie Vernoy 39:41
And there's you can schedule like a video call to like it seems like if you're not getting resolved through the you know, the pre recorded videos, the chat or a phone call like it seems like the option for screen share has been really great to getting a video screen share call.
Diana Stepner 39:59
It's a really good way To help see things from the clinicians perspective, and then be able to help them navigate, because if someone is doing it themselves, then it helps remain in memory. And then it's more likely they'll be able to just quickly navigate on their own the next time.
Curt Widhalm 40:16
One of the things when it comes to some of those customer feedback is also the communities that simple practice has Facebook on your customer suggestion site, how have you taken some of those suggestions in the past and incorporated them and it's not just out there listening to people, or Hey, complaining, but there is ways that you really do tap into the community here too
Diana Stepner 40:43
Definitely, I mean, other improvements are on billing, as well as insurance. And you know, there's feedback that we received directly from the community on Facebook. There's also a lot of information that comes through Instagram, we have user voice. And so billing recently updated the client billing page to make it a lot easier for people to see things at a glance, you know, specifically the billing status for each appointment, we also improve the design to be able to scan just a page and see in a matter of seconds, whether the client or the insurance is owing money for each of the appointments. And that was driven directly by feedback that came through the community. And then also on the insurance perspective. And the coverage reports, as well as the eligibility is an area of improvement for us based on your customer feedback coming through the community. And so clinicians can set expectations with their clients easily easily in regards to what their insurance plan will cover. And so yeah, the feedback has been really helpful to ensure that we're making the changes that the community needs and helps us then follow out connect with the community. And they give us guidance as we go through the designs.
Katie Vernoy 41:56
So I found simple practice, especially helpful for me and even my consulting clients. Because I feel like it's it's a way to kind of launch in get your practice going, you can basically get a client on Monday and see them with everything in place on Tuesday. So I find it very helpful. But I know that simple practice is not for everybody. So if people are considering different electronic health records or practice management systems, who is simple practice, not right for.
Diana Stepner 42:23
Yeah, and I think it's a really good question. I mean, simple practice is a product where I do recommend you try it, we have the free trial. So it's an amazing way for people to get familiar with simple practice and see if it's right for them. For folks that are looking for, you know, I think what will be referred to as more of a force workflow, so I need to go from step a to step B to step C or guided from one to two to three, then there may be a different product that's right for them, we allow a lot of flexibility in regards to how people want to approach their practice, because again, simple practice was built, you know, with the clinician in heart. And so we know individuals have different workflows that they like, we know people have different rituals that they follow. And we want to ensure that they can incorporate those into their practice. So we have a lot of flexibility. But if individuals are being looked for looking for more of a guided step by step, then maybe something else is for them. But we still recommend, you know, using the free trial learning about simple practice, because it is it is designed specifically with clinicians at heart.
Katie Vernoy 43:33
And I would think that that would probably be most relevant, as far as, you know, kind of these forest or, or very streamlines very specific systemic kind of planning, it seems like that would be more for like, large group practices versus individuals or small group practices, because it seems like there's when you really need to get very specific with your systems is when you're having to leverage it across multiple sites, tons of clinicians. So so with, you know, shorthand, is it potentially larger group practices that would really need to make sure that simple practice was aligned with the systems that they already had in place?
Diana Stepner 44:12
Yeah, I think that's a great description. And we do have large group practices on simple practice, but it is, yeah, simple practice was designed originally for the solo and for the smaller practices. So as you're saying, you may get to a size of, you know, 500 clinicians where you need to have those forced workflows just to be able to manage that, that group of individuals. That makes sense.
Curt Widhalm 44:34
So I know, with any tech company, you can't release too much of what you've got in development. But sir, anything that you can share of what's coming up next.
Diana Stepner 44:45
Yeah, and so from a recent product development perspective, we're looking at improving client billing even more areas of the overview page as well as automating the closing pay periods, as well as you know, aspects from telehealth So again, a lot driven by the community and feedback in regards to areas that you know, our clients, customers want to see improvements in the other areas on the professional website, we talked about it. And it's an amazing product that's has a lot of potential. And so we want to continue with updates there too. And being able to make it as simple and clean foundation for the clinician to tell their story about their practice and better engage with their client base. So that is going to continue to evolve the monarch. Again, it's new. So we'll continue to make improvements to monarch in regards to offering improved ways to match with clinicians and clients. And yeah, from there, I think we'll just continue with improvements to the product and areas that the community identifies. Yeah, we will, we should focus on. So how does someone sign up? Yeah, so someone signs up, simple, easy process. And so if someone wants to go to WWW dot simple practice, comm slash therapy reimagined, we actually have a promotion that's going on. So if you sign up, you'll receive a free 30 day trial plus one additional month free after you become a paid subscriber.
Katie Vernoy 46:17
Yay. And we are paid affiliate with simple practice. So we will get a little bit of money in our pocket. So thank you very much. If someone's wanting to take advantage of this offer, we'll put the link in the show notes. How would you recommend them kind of going in and kind of investigating if simple practices for them.
Diana Stepner 46:36
So I think the free trial is an amazing way to get started, we also have steps that guide people through how to get started. So I do recommend following those steps. There's in the first step, you set up your practice, and we have videos that help you get an overview of the features and functions within simple practice. From there, you're guided to be able to set up your your website presence, so that you can put your your sign out on the internet that you are available, and then walking through how to manage, you know, an actual client. So we have a client that's in there as a demo account to be able to help you work through all the features before you're ready to open your door. And then from there, yeah, being able to have conversations with you know, that focus on onboarding can help people get started to the within the couple of steps that get people up and running. It's a great way just to learn more about simple practice and make sure there's a fit. There's a lot that's happening within simple practice. So appreciate having the opportunity to share. Yeah, a lot of the highlights with you. Thank you very much, Diana, for joining us. Thank you.
Katie Vernoy 47:50
Okay, so we were able to listen to Howard's vision for the company. And for the product. We talked about the specific features. And so now it's our turn. And so I guess the the way we start this Curt is Who do you think simple practices for like, who are the modern therapists that you would recommend simple practice to?
Curt Widhalm 48:10
simple practice is definitely for the tech minded therapists, those who are really starting out in their practice wanting to build an ecosystem around having everything all in one place. And I can speak from my own experience on this, doing this from the very beginning. If you're getting out there and launching into your practice, I know that I have I had pushed simple practice away for years I had my own kind of in the office thing set up. And it took me a little while to fully transition things over and one of the biggest regrets that I have from my career is not having done this sooner, because it is kind of a learning curve to move things over get things set up. And if this had always just been the way then it would have been a lot easier to move into and not as difficult as time consuming to move everything over.
Katie Vernoy 49:07
Yeah, I think that's a good point. So I think what you're saying is definitely there's there's an element of tech savviness that's needed there's there's videos throughout on how you set things up. But there's there's a there cannot be a fear of technology
Curt Widhalm 49:20
Right
Katie Vernoy 49:20
that may be true for all all electronic health records but because I think simple practice relies on a lot of demos and and videos, you're going to want to not be terrified by it. I think the other thing and Howard spoke to this is that it was originally designed for solo practitioners who were private pay, and I think that definitely is still probably the strongest choice but I definitely know for myself that insurance billing is a breeze and so I would I would say for folks who were insurance billing, private pay or hybrid solo practitioners - unreserved recommendation.
Curt Widhalm 49:59
Totally
Katie Vernoy 50:00
As long as you are tech savvy, or at least comfortable with learning new technology.
Curt Widhalm 50:05
I'm a group practice owner, I have a small group practice. I know a lot of other group practice owners and have heard some of their desires to use other sort of platforms. And Howard also spoke about this too, coming from that place, and just watching simple practice grow of being a company that was designed for private practitioners, for the way that I have my Group Practice set up, simple practice works just fine. But I know that I don't run my practice in the same way that everybody else does. And I know the simple practice continues to grow. They talked about ways to give them feedback and have their community be able to push new things to their design team to continue to add new features. And I think that they've done so with group practices largely in mind over the last several years. But for those people who need some of the other functions, there are some limitations on where simple practice is when it comes to managing a group. And it's something that you should evaluate if you are interested in simple practice to see if what their features currently are those that meet the needs of you and your team.
Katie Vernoy 51:13
And I do some consulting with group practice owners. And I think that there are potentially some reports that you want to check out to see what's there and what you would recreate. I think there's functionality that simple practice has that other electronic health records do not as far as just overall practice. And so I think, identifying what your needs are. And size of group, number of clients seen, I think sometimes some, some practice management systems are by number of users, some are by number of clients. So you just want to see what's going to make sense for you. But I think, overall, I think we're saying solo practitioner, absolutely check it out, see if it aligns with how you think about things. For group practice owners check to make sure it has the functionality you like and need for the way that you run your group practice.
Curt Widhalm 52:05
Katie, anyone that shouldn't use simple practice?
Katie Vernoy 52:10
I think the people who are terrified by technology and really want to have somebody on the phone with them walking through things that this may not be the practice management system for them. I think that there's a more of a I don't even know what the right word is. But there's there's there are some folks that really desire the on demand phone support, they want to have that type of interaction. I know we've all talked about the different ways that you can get support with simple practice. And they think chatting and screen sharing and setting up meetings and going by email, sometimes that works for folks. And sometimes it doesn't. So I think being able to really understand that elements, there's potentially a lot of setup, there's a lot of customization, which makes it amazing, but then that means that you have to actually do it. And so there are there's like this little cottage industry of people that help a simple practice. So we won't mention that here except to say that there are there is assistance if you love the system, but then feel a little bit overwhelmed by learning it or setting it up. But for folks who don't want to spend extra money setting up simple practice, and who are afraid of technology, I'd say this is not the right system for you. So the final piece that I think is important is how to get the most or special considerations for using simple practice. And you and I talked about this at a time, and you kind of mentioned it, it is the amount of time it takes to set it up. I would say that if you start with it, it's very helpful because your clients are just rolling right into the system. And there's not really set up, it's just each client does their own their own file, they do all the stuff. There's some customization you want to look at. But it doesn't have to be a huge setup. But if you've already got a practice in place, with all your forms already created, getting that setup takes some time. The other consideration is a lot of folks will get started with it, but they won't use all the functionality. And I think that's the part where, especially if you're on the pro plan, and you have all the functionality use it, it actually makes everything very streamlined. If you don't use all the functionality, it's not necessarily the right i think system for you. So making sure that you actually put the time aside to set it up I think is important.
Curt Widhalm 54:23
Absolutely. And there are new features or features that have always been there that I fully admit that I don't use. And so it does make it worthwhile when you investigate what's actually there and the portions of simple practice that I do use. I find her very worthwhile investment for me and my practice. And knowing that there's more out there makes it easy thing for me to say. Yeah, check it out. Go ahead and use it if it works for you and make sure that you give it a fair shake and a full evaluation. So you can check out our show notes about this episode including timestamps to specific questions at MTS g podcast.com. And thank you for joining us on this adventure through our first ever modern therapist consumer guide. And until next time, I'm currently at home with Katie Vernoy.
Announcer 55:21
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Modern Therapist’s Consumer Guide on SimplePractice Curt and Katie talk with Howard Spector, CEO and Diana Stepner, VP of Product for SimplePractice. We look at how SimplePractice has been envisioned, the company values, and the details of the product, so you can decide if SimplePractice is the Practice Management System for your private practice.
This is the Modern Therapist Consumer Guide, a series of special episodes to help modern therapists navigate products and services specifically designed for therapists and their clients. We dig deeply into the companies, the people, and the products and services so you can make smart decisions in building your practice and serving your clients.
Interview with Howard Spector, CEO and Diana Stepner, VP of Product, SimplePractice Howard is the CEO and Co-founder of SimplePractice. Howard has over 20 years of experience in the information technology industry. He is proud to have earned his MA in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Depth Psychology at Pacifica Graduate Institute.
Diana joined SimplePractice from Pearson where she was the VP of Innovative Learning Solutions, a portfolio of products that provide value anytime, anywhere for learners by increasing confidence & outcomes associated with a specific learning activity or skill. Previously Diana headed up Future Technologies and Innovation Partnerships at Pearson. She also worked in Emerging Media at Razorfish and User Experience at Salesforce.com. In addition, Diana led Product Management in Western Europe for Monster Worldwide. She has a MIMS from UC Berkeley and an MBA from Boston University. When not doing Product, Diana can be found exercising, listening to podcasts, nutrition / health / wellness, and travel (someday). She lives in San Francisco with her husband and attack puppy.
In this episode we talk about: Interview with Howard Spector, CEO, SimplePractice * 2:12: How did the vision for SimplePractice (SP) come into being? * 4:17: What is the trajectory for SimplePractice? * 6:25: How does SP take in feedback and remain true to their principles and values from which it began? * 9:12: What is SP’s response to feedback about customer service? * 15:31: How does the team atmosphere and culture play out for customers? * 19:41: How does SimplePractice support Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion? * 22:12: What is in the future for SP? * 23:18: What is Howard most proud for about SP? * 25:10: What does Howard want everyone considering SP for their practice management system need to know?
Interview with Diana Stepner, VP of Product, SimplePractice * 26:32: What does it look like when someone signs up for SimplePractice? * 28:54: What are the strongest elements of SimplePractice? * 30:24: What are SP’s paperwork customization features? * 34:04: What is the professional website feature? * 35:07: What is Monarch? * 38:01 What are some areas SimplePractice is looking to improve? * 40:17: How has SP taken suggestions from the community and incorporated them into SimplePractice? * 41:56: Who is SimplePractice NOT right for? * 44:35: What is coming up next for SimplePractice’s development? * 45:54: How do you sign up for SimplePractice? (includes information on our special offer) * 46:19: How would you recommend people investigating if SimplePractice is a good fit for them?
Curt and Katie Chat – Our review of SimplePractice * 47:31: Who would we recommend SimplePractice for? * 52:05: Who we think would not be a good match for SimplePractice * 53:19: Our recommendations and the special considerations for using SimplePractice to get the maximum benefit
SimplePractice Special Offer: Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
Relevant Links:
Howard Spector on The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide: Investing in Yourself as an Entrepreneur
SimplePractice Facebook Community
SimplePractice Community Forum
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
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Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
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Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Full Transcript (autogenerated): Curt Widhalm 00:01
This is the Modern Therapist's Consumer Guide, a series of special episodes to help modern therapists navigate products and services specifically designed for therapists and their clients.
Katie Vernoy 00:11
We dig deeply into the companies, the people, and the products and services so you can make smart decisions in building your practice and serving your clients.
Announcer 00:21
You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.
Curt Widhalm 00:37
Hey, Modern Therapists, I'm Curt Widhalm with my co host, Katie Vernoy. And this first episode of the Modern Therapist's Consumer Guide is on SimplePractice. Simple practice is an all in one practice management system. And this episode is for modern therapists who would like to know more about this company, and or who are researching electronic health records and practice management systems.
Katie Vernoy 01:00
We have a ton of good information on simple practice in this episode, feel free to listen to our interviews as well as our review at the end. Or if you have specific questions, check out the show notes where we're going to have timestamps, so that you can get specific pieces of information for whatever decision that you're making. You can also check out the show notes on our resources page for a special offer from simple practice to our listeners.
Curt Widhalm 01:24
We're gonna be joined today by Howard Spector, the CEO of SimplePractice, and he's going to be discussing the vision for where they've been, where they started, and where they're going to go. And we're also going to spend some time to discuss some of the features of their system. Take a listen. We are joined by SimplePractice, founder and CEO, Howard Spector. And this is such a phenomenal company, having seen it be able to grow, I remember back when you were coming around to little neighborhood therapist meetings, and just really starting to bring out the idea of what simple practice can be and what it was going to be. But can you tell us how your vision for simple practice came into being?
Howard Spector 02:16
Yeah, well, first, thanks for having me. It's always great talking with both of you. I do remember those meetings, they were local CAMFT, Chapter meetings, and I would get up in the morning and, you know, get all of our marketing stuff. And it was, you know, I look back on that kind of fondly, like where it started what I had to do to get this business going. But anyway, was the question again? how did how did the idea for simple practice come into being? Okay? So, the short answer is that I went back to graduate school later in my career, to become a therapist, and I went through the, you know, I don't know why people know, the whole story of I invented this product called TrackYourHours to track all my training hours. And that did pretty well. And when I was almost done with all of my training, I started looking at practice management products, because I wanted to find something that I can use to run my practice. And, you know, at the time, there just really wasn't something out there that I felt really connected to, that would really serve my needs and how I wanted to run my business. So that really was plant the planting of the seed where I thought maybe I could build something that would be more in line with how I want to work. And that idea just kind of rattled around in my unconscious for a while. And then one day, it just kind of came out and hit me like, Okay, I think I know how I want to build this. And I partnered up with someone who was more on the technology side of things, and we just started, you know, wireframing the product out and figuring out how we wanted it to work, and just sort of building it. So it was really one of those things where the motivation behind starting this business wasn't because I thought, Oh, I want to build a business and make a lot of money or make money. It was really, I just needed a product that I could use for myself. And I thought about a lot of the people that I did training with, and went to school with, and I just to me it was like, Well, how can I build something that they would really like and enjoy it as well and make it easy for them to run their practices. So that was really the beginning of this whole journey.
Katie Vernoy 04:16
And it started with some I'm assuming pretty basic and has grown into a all in one product. Talk a little bit about what the trajectory is what what simple practice is right now?
Howard Spector 04:28
Well, I'll tell you where it just really briefly where it started and how it started. So I made a lot of really, I made a lot of assumptions, You know what they say about assumptions. You have to start with something and my initial idea for this was we're going to build a practice management system, very simple for solo practitioners only. And for folks that only take cash or don't take insurance basically. So no groups, no insurance. And so we built that and we launched That. And we very quickly realized a couple things. One was, that was a mistake. Because there was a lot of folks that really, that were that had group practices, whether that just means two people or more, that really liked what we had built and wanted to be able to use it and couldn't. And the other thing was, there were a lot of people that were taking insurance. And they, you know, didn't like the fact that we couldn't process that through our, our platform, our product. So what happened was, we launched it, we got some customers, it was great. And we started getting feedback immediately. And so we basically, I was so naive, I thought, I will launch this, and we'll be on our way. But what it really happened was, you know, we're eight years into, you know, continuing to develop this platform, it's nonstop, you know, there's always new things to do. When you first arrive first thought about it, I thought, well, you know, scheduling, billing and payments, how hard can that be? But what I really realized as like, you know, as a mirror to life, right? There's, it's all about the nuance, it's all about those details. And, you know, you don't really know a lot of those things until you start embarking on that journey. And, again, we started getting more feedback, we started learning more things about how people worked and what they wanted. And then you need this, you need that. So it really has, it's been a constant journey of development since 2012, when we first started the company.
Curt Widhalm 06:24
And you're getting that kind of feedback, and growing and managing an ever growing team, as you add on things like the insurance, billing, and even new divisions like simple practice learning. How do you take that feedback yet and stay true to your principles and values from where you started?
Howard Spector 06:46
First and foremost, you know, I want to please everybody, which is the recipe for success from the you know, I mean, you hear someone they want something, you want to add it, because if you don't, they're gonna be mad, and I don't want to have people mad at me, right. So there's a lot of, you know, therapy sessions, you can tie into all this, for me, just figuring out how to create boundaries and stuff. But we, you know, we have a very vocal customer base. And that's a great thing. I mean, cuz companies would, like, really, they really want that. But it's hard also, because people are pretty relentless. But we're here to serve them. And we're here, you know, people pay us a monthly fee, because our job is to continue to iterate on this all the time and evolve our product for them, not just, hey, we deliver a static product, and we're done. But keep paying us anyway. So we get a lot of feedback through a lot of different channels, you know, we have a Facebook community page, which is, you know, gets a lot of, you know, activity, we have another whole community forum area, we have through our customer success team, you know, there's a lot of feedback that comes into them. And so there's, there's a lot of inbound information that then. And we look at all of it, and we have a user voice, it's a product that allows people to post ideas they have they want to see in the product, and other people can vote on those things. So as you get feature requests, or things that have a lot of votes to them, you know, those can you start looking at those more seriously. And you want to be able to do everything, but you can't, and that what part of the challenge is explaining to people why you can't do something, what they say is, well, it's just a button, just add this button, you know, what they realize is there's a whole complex, it's like, talking with someone that's got, you know, some serious, you know, challenges in their life. And you're saying, well, just, you know, go start running, you know, that'll fix it, or whatever. So to solve it. Yeah. So there's, you know, it's hard, because, again, we're here to serve people, and they don't want to hear excuses. And we don't want to give them excuses. But the reality is, we want everybody to be happy. And we want to give everyone what they want. It's just impossible to do. And if we built everything that everyone asked for our product would be an absolute mess. So it really is a matter of us really looking at the requests that are coming in through all these different channels, and deciding, you know, which ones are the most urgent, right? And then also which ones are going to have the greatest impact for the most people. And that's, again, I'm simplifying the process. But that's so some way that we go about, like going through all the the incoming feedback and figuring out what to do or what not to do.
Katie Vernoy 09:12
One of the specific pieces of feedback that seems to plague simple practice is this idea that there's not solid customer service. And we've actually talked about this before when you came on to the podcast previously. And we can link to that in the notes here. So people can learn about your kind of business prowess there. But there's certainly feedback on customer service. So I'd love to have you address that. And there's also other types of feedback that comes through you. I think you use the word relentless. What are your responses to those? Because I think that there's the cific things that seem to keep being kind of a thorn in simple practices side, especially around customer service.
Howard Spector 09:55
Well, so I'm not sure it's hard for me to answer that because I would be more specific information because then you simply don't have solid customer service. Because I'm what I think about is, we have, like, we have these things called CSAT scores, or customer satisfaction scores that are collected by when people do get support, they're allowed to rate the support, our cset scores are consistently in the mid 90th percentile, which is pretty remarkable. And that, you know, that is consistent over time, even during when the COVID pandemic started, and we saw a massive increase in the amount of people that were signing up, we maintain the scores, we also have what we call NPS scores. So people get these emails or messages from us, that basically say, hey, how likely are you to recommend simple practice to a friend and it's on a scale of like, one to 10. And it's like, it's, it's a, it's broken up into, like, you know, I think seven to 10 are promoters, and people that will promote civil practice, etc. So, our NPS scores are also like in the 60s and 70s, which is remarkable. For any kind of business. I mean, those are massively high scores, because the scoring goes to like negative 100, to 100. So there's always going to be a time where people aren't happy with certain things, and what happens typically, especially on Facebook, which is why I deleted my facebook account, you get, you know, it's like the squeaky wheel, you get one person out there that's unhappy with something, and then you get the whole barrage of people kind of, you know, tail tailing on that thing, and then it escalates into this whole shitshow of complaints against something. And most of the time, there's, the complaints are based upon erroneous information, you know, or limited information. And I think that is important for what I would love to be able to tell everyone is like, you know, we're here for you, it's like, our intention is to, like, do good and help you and do the right thing. And so many times, it's really fascinating to me, and it makes me angry, just on a human level that people default to the negative, like, what are they trying to do? And why aren't they doing this and like, like, we're out to get them in some way, which is completely opposite of what we're all trying to do. So I know that there's, we can always do better in everything, you know, personally and professionally. Believe me, I my focus is like I'm the worrier. And chief here, I look at all the things that we can do better, with customer success, which is what we call our group not support, we call it customer success. I think the biggest issues that have come up that I've been aware of are these talks about the ability to have phone support. Yeah. And to me, that's a recurring thing that comes up. And there's again, this this erroneous narrative, it's perpetuated from some of our competitors, that we don't have phone support, which is not true, we do have phone support, it's just it's not 24, seven on demand inbound support, it's something where you make an appointment, someone on our team will get on a video share with you or like, you know, screenshare, whatever they need to help you with what you need to do. And I know it sounds defensive, but it's not. It's the reality, like if we went and if we provide phone support, and I think we will provide it at some point, we're looking at some things right now, we want to make sure it's a good experience. Some of our competitors provide phone support, but we call those lines and you sit on hold, saying you have it just to say you have it is not how we want to operate our business, we want to have integrity around what we do, not implying they don't, I'm just talking about us, we want to have integrity around what we do. If we provide something like phone support, for example, we want it to be a really good experience. And for the low price point of which we charge for simple practice. It's unrealistic to think that we can support 10s of 1000s of customers with on demand 24, seven inbound phone support. It's just unsustainable, in some ways, but again, we're looking into things right now, hopefully, we can provide something in addition to make an appointment at a time that's convenient for you. And somebody will work with you directly to help you out. We also have chat, that happens a lot. So you don't you're not on the phone. But you can live chat with people and a whole bunch of other ways that we do support. So I think our support, it's one of the most proud things I am about our company. I've worked a lot of companies in my life. And customer success or customer support in most businesses is usually this cost, you know, this cost center that's relegated to the back room. It's this part of the company that is an afterthought for a lot of people. And I never thought that way about it for this for this business. Because, you know, our customers are the most important thing. So, you know, we've really been intentional, you know, mindful, thoughtful about that team, that that group on our team, and who we hire, you know, how they work what they do. That's something that I believe we have a world class customer success team, despite the fact that people are going to be annoyed at sometimes that's just the nature of business and it's going to happen, but it's an unbelievable group of people. I wish that I could let people that are complaining about things no, like, each one of these people's an individual that comes to work every day, like, deeply cares about the mission that we're on the work that we're doing to support our customers. It's hard sometimes to see the shit that they take from people that are frustrated. But what I tell them is, hey, look, a lot of our customers are they work solo, you know, their job is to kind of be a container for their clients. And they're holding a lot. And like, sometimes we're just in the line of fire for to help them kind of unload some stuff.
Curt Widhalm 15:31
One of the things that Katie and I have, we're both simple practice users in our practices and have been for quite a while. We've obviously known Howard for quite a while we've known several of his staff for several years, and we've developed some of those personal relationships to actually see some of your employees on that more personal level. For those of us who aren't Katie and I, you really do create this warm, welcoming space, and as your company has evolved, you're so really able to keep that personal touch going, how does that team atmosphere really play out for the customers that makes it to where it's a really integrated flow from you as a very personal CEO, out to the solo therapists that's, you know, maybe in the middle of nowhere, who's able to still feel that care and comfort.
Howard Spector 16:29
I think that we've worked very hard here. And we always do. And it's a nonstop ongoing process to create a great culture. And a lot of companies talk, like they use the culture word. They say, yeah, we have a great culture. But what does it mean? You know? And do you really and how, how committed to it, are you we spent a lot of time talking about culture, we have a whole culture and values deck that we require people to read while they're interviewing with us to understand so they can understand what is it like to work here? Like, what are our what are our culture and values. And these aren't things that are just written on a piece of paper. And I think that's one of the things that differentiates us, at least in my experience, and other companies that I've worked out. It's, we believe in all this stuff, we update this culture and values deck, you know, we, because some things we realize maybe weren't communicated the right way or something's wrong, whatever. It's an iterative, ongoing, document, the living document. And I think I really believe that because we care so deeply about the culture here, to provide a place for people to work that is supportive and collaborative, and human, you know, that, that just ends up translating to our customers. It's amazing to watch, like, how, like, during the pandemic, when everything first hit, and we got slammed, how people stepped up to help each other. They want to cry right now. It's like, it's like, there's such a sense of camaraderie and helpful collaboration with the people at this company. And it's just who they are. And so that, to me, that just gets translated to everything we do. And part of my job is to make sure that as we grow, you know, it's a slippery slope, once you start letting one thing slide, you're done. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's like an ongoing process of hyper vigilance, I say, it's like, you're just making sure that even down to the language in some cases, like how we talk, how we talk with one another, like what we do and how we think about, you know, our marketing materials, and what are we trying to say, it's showing our customers, the people here, and being able to say, when you are part of our community, when you're, you know, we using simple practice, you've got all these people that work at this company that are working for you, you know, that's a pretty cool message that I love that image, it's like, Look, while you're sleeping, while you're doing something else, we're working to help make your life better through through how you manage your practice. And I totally believe that it's in the DNA of this company. And you know, when you have, I think, when you really believe that and you really act on that on an ongoing moment by moment basis, you know, it translates out and it filters out to our customers.
Katie Vernoy 19:14
I think that's so important. I know that in times when I've worked in other organizations that did not have that type of clarity on culture, or the culture was really toxic. I think that does translate out to clients customers, like I think it it's hard for that not to be kind of transmitted along and and I really appreciate that. And I like the thoughtfulness with how you've put that together. One of the values that that Curt and I have infused into our business and our work is is in looking at the team and looking at how you put things together and the thoughtfulness that you're describing. There's diversity, equity and inclusion. And so narrowing a little bit into that specific arena, how do you support diversity, equity inclusion throughout simple practice?
Howard Spector 20:05
I've always been very proud of you know, if you go to our team page and look at our team page, you're gonna see a wide variety of people, we've got an amazing mix of people here. And I'm incredibly proud of that. It's not by overt, like, we didn't go out and say, we've got to go do this. It's just, you hire great people, and great people come from all different backgrounds and experiences. So I've, it's always been just that, yeah, just be open to any any anyone who's a good person, regardless of all those other things. And I think that when the whole George Floyd thing happened, which I know that that was just one representative moment in a much, much larger, longer, you know, thing, but I don't mean to minimize it by using that word, you know, that really raised the conversation in the company. And there were people in the company who were actually newer in the company, who were, who actually came in during the pandemic, so they really hadn't been acculturated in the way other people had. They said that we need to do more, you know, there weren't enough, you know, Black people in the company. And we could do better. And my answer is like, Okay, well, yeah, of course, we can always do better, you know, how, let's talk about the specifics that we can do around that. So for example, that one of the things that I thought about was, you know, are we looking for candidates in places in different places? Like, where, where do we post jobs? What kind of recruiters do we work with? How do we basically improve the diversity of the candidates that we're getting, so the pool that we're at, basically, choosing from is more more diverse. So there's things like that, and there's more that we're working on internally, as a company to make sure that we're really paying attention to these things, I guess, less unconsciously and more like, consciously. But, you know, again, to me, it's like, I've just always felt like we're very open and inclusive company, and we want to hire really great people. And it doesn't matter the color of your skin or anything, it's just come work here with a bunch of great people.
Curt Widhalm 22:12
We've seen simple practice, grow. Where is simple practice going from here, what's in the future for simple practice?
Howard Spector 22:20
There's actually some things right now that have gotten me incredibly excited, and almost re energized for the business, because of the next evolution of what we're doing. And how we're supporting our customers, there's some really important things we're going to be rolling out that are going to help people with their practices. But aside from that, there's constant work that needs to happen to the existing, you know, the platform the way it is, I think there's a lot of what I call product debt that we've developed over the years, that we're in the process right now of, you know, our workflows, as intuitive as they can be. Not all of them are, you know, there's some things in the product that are confusing the people that we know about, you know, at some point, you look back, you sit back, and you're like, wow, you know, that's, that's getting a little crazy, we got to we got to, we got to come back and, and, and reorder some of these things in the settings area, and stuff like that. So we're investing a lot of time right now in that, in addition to just adding new things, and some other things as well.
Katie Vernoy 23:18
What are you most proud of?
Howard Spector 23:20
I think I'm most proud of the culture and the company that we've created here, just again, to watch how the people here work, how they work with each other, how they support each other, how much they're bought into the mission of our business, which is to support, you know, health and wellness professionals, that most proud of that, when I see you, we have a meeting every Friday with a whole company, and different folks from different groups in the company present things that they're working on, or things that they're doing. And I just stand back kind of in awe of watching all these amazing people digging so deeply into the work that they're doing to try to make everything better for our customers. That is, it's an unbelievable, because in the beginning, it was just me and me and Ralph, you know, it's like me and Ralph and Fletcher, and then me, Ralph, and you know, Jessica, then me, Ralph, Fletcher, Jessica, and Will, you know, so it's really, it's been amazing to watch the evolution of the business. And now we're at 100. And I think 70 or 180 people in this company, which is unbelievable to me. And watch how deeply everybody cares not just about one another, but about our customers. That's the most proud of. And also, I think just on top of that is, you know, when I sit back and I think about the clinicians of professionals out there that are using simple practice, and what they're dealing with on a daily basis, and they were there hopefully to help them and in our small way, do the work that they're doing, which is, you know, healing the world kind of one patient client at a time. That's a pretty awesome, pretty awesome thing to think about in terms of you know, we've built This platform that helps people do that work, or run the business so they can do the work that they're doing. That's pretty awesome to me to think about that.
Katie Vernoy 25:09
So what do you want everyone considering simple practice for their practice management needs... What do you want them to know?
Howard Spector 25:17
We're a group of with people that are very dedicated to the success of our customers, you know, and to support them, and to build out products and services, to help them do the work that they do. We do our best to do that. And I would just to be honest, because I feel like I have to be honest and say that, like our platform isn't for everybody. There's a lot of choices out there, which is, I think, a good thing. And I think that I always encourage people to try ours, try some other ones. And really ask yourself, you know, which one of these Am I going to want to spend time with to build my business? Hopefully, you know, we'll find that simple practices, the right fit. Not always. And that's cool. You know, we work very hard for our customers all the time. And we have an amazing team of people that are here support everybody.
Katie Vernoy 26:06
Switching gears a little bit, let's dive deeply into the specific features of simple practice.
Curt Widhalm 26:12
And we are joined by Diana Stepner and she is the Vice President of Product at SimplePractice. And thank you for joining us and sharing some of the cool things that you've got going on over there. Yeah, really excited to be here. Thank you very much for having me on the podcast.
Katie Vernoy 26:28
Yeah. So excited to have you here. So the first question that I want to dive into, because I think there's a lot of, there's probably a lot of folks that are looking for their practice management system, their electronic health record, like they're, they're just getting started. And so if we could get an overview, like the benefits and options included in the simple practice, practice management system, kind of the basics, as well as the upgrades that would be helpful, just so folks have a base idea of what are we looking at when somebody signs on to simple practice?
Diana Stepner 27:04
Great. Yeah, so our entry level product, our basic product is called essential, we have an amazing calculator that's on the simple practice comm slash pricing site. So folks can get a great understanding of you know, what's included, and the configurations that go from there. It's awesome in regards to all the features that a solo clinician would need. And so it's got online payment, it has free appointment reminders, it's got diagnosis and treatment plans, it has unlimited clients, there's a client portal, there's paperless intake, and all of that is, you know, focused on helping the clinician be as successful as they possibly can be, and not have to worry about all the backend operational aspects that simple practice powers. We also have upgrades. So we know people are very interested in telehealth. So that is an upgrade that's available to you can also add on Wiley planners, if that's of interest to people. And then the professional website is available, as is monarch, which is our new marketplace that launched recently. And then for folks that are looking for, you know, multiple clinician access or additional capabilities, we have a further plan, which is called professional, it's there for those who want to, you know, have more capabilities available for them or have a larger practice more clients that they're seeing already. And in all cases, you know, the focus of simple practice is to enable the clinicians throughout their career. And so we also have offerings, you know, that align with the pre licensed clinicians, and all the way through to ongoing education and areas that they want to explore just to keep their their learning on par, for example, through SimplePractice Learning,
Curt Widhalm 28:53
What are the strongest elements of the simple practice platform, how you really stand out compared to the rest of the crowd?
Diana Stepner 29:01
And it's actually what brought me to simple practice, I mean, simple practice is designed very thoroughly. And the focus has always been on giving customers the ability to work in their own workflows, and not be stuck in one set process. So to truly be the best that they can be. And it's fully integrated. So the capabilities are all available in one simple practice offering. It's HIPAA compliant from the telehealth opportunity to which is an amazing advantage. And then when it comes down to features, we're really strong on the features the client portal with secure messaging, as well as paperless intake and online booking. And the ability to manage multiple clients and their care through one single log on. So we think all of that in an integrated experience really makes it beneficial and stands out from for clients who are seeking an opportunity that fits with them. The other pieces we offer free appointments and appointment reminders As we know, clinicians appreciate the convenience of the appointment reminders, especially when they're starting their practice.
Katie Vernoy 30:06
I know that appointment reminders definitely helped me with my attendance. Right. So I think that's great that that's included. I think sometimes there's, there's opportunities for organizations or platforms to kind of nickel and dime folks. And so having it all integrated, is really nice. One of my favorite things on simple practices, that paperwork customization, I use that all over the place. Can you tell us a little bit about paperwork? customization?
Diana Stepner 30:34
Yeah, I'm really excited that you like that. That's a great feature. And yeah, so it allows the clinician to be able to incorporate more elements about their practice to be able to stand out. And it really helps them again, adopt the paperwork to their workflow, as opposed to have to rethink how they're used to running their practice or want to run their practice.
Katie Vernoy 30:56
Yeah, there's both documents that you have within that people can edit. And you can also import your own documents. And then the thing that I think also stands out, maybe this isn't paperwork customization, but I've created a checkbox progress note, and I can design different custom progress notes, and it makes my paperwork much much quicker.
Diana Stepner 31:16
That's wonderful. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. And yeah, besides the paperwork, customization, which we know you guys are a fan of, there's also the comprehensive billing, you know, especially the insurance billing, that includes payment reports, as well as secondary claims, which is amazing. And then yeah, the streamlined client care also stands out, you know, the client portal, having all the capabilities which reflect and help people have that more polished online presence. So gets everybody started and looking good. And then yeah, just being able to take your practice on the go. I mean, we know people may not be going out as much as they used to, but people will always want to have their mobile device with them be able to go back and forth between the desktop and the mobile experience, which is where simple practice stands out with mobile apps for iOS, as well as Android. And then yeah, the online booking is a really a good feature that a lot of people rave about too. And having the initial screener in or, you know, using that as an initial screener interview just helps people be able to move to a paperless process.
Curt Widhalm 32:17
One of the things that I really like is the whole calendar system, both clients being able to book sessions, but also the two way integration that it has with other calendar programs. And I use this in in a few different ways, I give parents a little bit less, or a little bit shorter opportunities to speak with me on my calendar than having them book out full sessions, and I'll be needing to talk for 10 or 15 minutes. And I love that my personal calendars can help block out some of those sessions if I'm not able to get into the app too. But I'm sure that I am not even doing this part of it justice.
Katie Vernoy 32:57
I was thinking Kurt, are you actually using all of that cuz I, I have a doubt that you're using all of those things. I love the calendar. But I also, I just wanted when you were talking about kind of the mobile app, I have clients who are doing the telehealth with a mobile app. And then I also I was going to take a selfie, I might have to do this, but like I was out and about ready for my walk and talk session. And I got to the meeting spot early. And I was able to review my note on my phone, I didn't have to like plan ahead or any of that kind of stuff. So I think there is definitely a utility that I think a lot of other platforms don't have if they don't have an app.
Diana Stepner 33:39
Yeah, that, again, is the benefit of bringing all the pieces together in one place. And that provides more control for the commission. It allows catering to you know, whether they're growing their practice, you know, for example, and want to be able to use monarch to do so or they're managing their existing clients. And they're happy with the state that they're in today. And so again, the benefits of bringing it all together allows for that, that flexibility.
Katie Vernoy 34:03
Well, those are a couple of newer things: the monarch network as well as the professional website, so maybe you can tell us a little bit about that, because those are newer to us. And we're just getting started with those.
Diana Stepner 34:16
Yeah, no problem at all. And so I'll start with the professional website. So that was designed to provide a simple, clean foundation for clinicians to be able to tell the story about their practice and better engage with their client base. And it's fully integrated functionality. And so it offers ease of use by reflecting information from their simple practice account that they already have set up so they don't need to duplicate that effort. And it's a modern one page design that translates beautifully onto the web, as well as to mobile. And so that means you're always available and can you determine the connections that you want to have with your clients. And the new feature is available now for people To be able to use and it's part of the professional plants.
Katie Vernoy 35:04
That's great. And it like a month ago or less - and I guess when we put this out, it'll be a little bit longer - Monarch launched. And so what is that?
Diana Stepner 35:15
Yeah, so Monarch is where you can see clients online. And so you can see the availability, you can share the availability that you have with prospective clients, and then that enables easier booking right from one place. And so we learned that having that availability, visible to prospective clients was one of the critical ways that clinicians wanted to manage their their practices. And also from the client side, they wanted to know when they could connect with their clinician what times were available, instead of having to go that back and forth over email or chat to seen that in one place gave them great insight, so they can quickly make an appointment. And so we wanted to bring that to light, and be able to fill that gap between the client and clinician by offering that continuity of care. And so whether the therapy seeker wants to find a clinician or the clinician wants to be able to, you know, see individuals or actually may be at capacity and wants to refer individuals to another practice, all that is available within the monarch marketplace to be able to see those opportunities. And so monarch is looking to, you know, help address those issues in the community. In regards to how we define it, it's characterize as an online network, that's reimagining how clinicians connect with therapy seekers, and even their colleagues. And it's completely integrated into the clinicians existing simple practice account. So again, makes it easier to take advantage and just an extension of what they've already set up and are familiar with, within simple practice.
Katie Vernoy 37:00
So you don't have to like enter things 27 million times, if you put it into your profile, you already have your calendar that allows for scheduling if you're on one of the higher plans. And so you can basically have it as a front end marketing opportunity, so people can schedule with you, and they're scheduling directly into your simple practice calendar.
Diana Stepner 37:21
Yeah, that's an excellent, excellent way to describe it. And so we you know, from from all the feedback that we've received so far, and how it was thoughtfully designed, I mean, its goal is to simplify the sourcing of prospective clients, and then be able to help clinicians to maintain control over their online presence, because we know that that control is extremely important and want to ensure that that remains in the hands of the clinicians. And with the emphasis on what makes their practice unique being part of what's displayed on monarch, it also gives them the right presence, and helps ensure their correct matching, or the ideal matching between the client and the clinician.
Curt Widhalm 38:00
What are some of the areas that simple practice is working to improve?
Diana Stepner 38:05
Yeah, and so within the areas that we're looking to improve, we know with telehealth there was, you know, areas of opportunity that we wanted to make the product even better. And so there is a fresh new design. You know, speaking about mobile, we want to make sure that the mobile experience remains easy. And so there are improvements we've made with the mobile app that they're coming soon, as well as just the online experience. We've also introduced new in call features. So giving people have the ability to toggle between a grid and the speaker view helping them have more of that presence and have more control over how the telehealth session runs. The real time pre call network status just helping people understand what they're not at network status is so they have a better understanding if they need to move to another place or maybe turn off video because their network may not be at the optimum level at that point in time. And that goes back into even more areas of improvement around the call quality and the performance just helping to make the online the telehealth experience even better than it has been. Yeah and with with customer success, you know, we're providing customers a phone number to call in to receive automated guidance you know, for example, if they're having problems logging in, as well as we're providing phone numbers depending on the issues raised and a solution is practical over the phone so we want to make sure that it's the right right connection for a phone conversation. And we also do have live support so people can reach out over chat on Mondays through Fridays
Katie Vernoy 39:41
And there's you can schedule like a video call to like it seems like if you're not getting resolved through the you know, the pre recorded videos, the chat or a phone call like it seems like the option for screen share has been really great to getting a video screen share call.
Diana Stepner 39:59
It's a really good way To help see things from the clinicians perspective, and then be able to help them navigate, because if someone is doing it themselves, then it helps remain in memory. And then it's more likely they'll be able to just quickly navigate on their own the next time.
Curt Widhalm 40:16
One of the things when it comes to some of those customer feedback is also the communities that simple practice has Facebook on your customer suggestion site, how have you taken some of those suggestions in the past and incorporated them and it's not just out there listening to people, or Hey, complaining, but there is ways that you really do tap into the community here too
Diana Stepner 40:43
Definitely, I mean, other improvements are on billing, as well as insurance. And you know, there's feedback that we received directly from the community on Facebook. There's also a lot of information that comes through Instagram, we have user voice. And so billing recently updated the client billing page to make it a lot easier for people to see things at a glance, you know, specifically the billing status for each appointment, we also improve the design to be able to scan just a page and see in a matter of seconds, whether the client or the insurance is owing money for each of the appointments. And that was driven directly by feedback that came through the community. And then also on the insurance perspective. And the coverage reports, as well as the eligibility is an area of improvement for us based on your customer feedback coming through the community. And so clinicians can set expectations with their clients easily easily in regards to what their insurance plan will cover. And so yeah, the feedback has been really helpful to ensure that we're making the changes that the community needs and helps us then follow out connect with the community. And they give us guidance as we go through the designs.
Katie Vernoy 41:56
So I found simple practice, especially helpful for me and even my consulting clients. Because I feel like it's it's a way to kind of launch in get your practice going, you can basically get a client on Monday and see them with everything in place on Tuesday. So I find it very helpful. But I know that simple practice is not for everybody. So if people are considering different electronic health records or practice management systems, who is simple practice, not right for.
Diana Stepner 42:23
Yeah, and I think it's a really good question. I mean, simple practice is a product where I do recommend you try it, we have the free trial. So it's an amazing way for people to get familiar with simple practice and see if it's right for them. For folks that are looking for, you know, I think what will be referred to as more of a force workflow, so I need to go from step a to step B to step C or guided from one to two to three, then there may be a different product that's right for them, we allow a lot of flexibility in regards to how people want to approach their practice, because again, simple practice was built, you know, with the clinician in heart. And so we know individuals have different workflows that they like, we know people have different rituals that they follow. And we want to ensure that they can incorporate those into their practice. So we have a lot of flexibility. But if individuals are being looked for looking for more of a guided step by step, then maybe something else is for them. But we still recommend, you know, using the free trial learning about simple practice, because it is it is designed specifically with clinicians at heart.
Katie Vernoy 43:33
And I would think that that would probably be most relevant, as far as, you know, kind of these forest or, or very streamlines very specific systemic kind of planning, it seems like that would be more for like, large group practices versus individuals or small group practices, because it seems like there's when you really need to get very specific with your systems is when you're having to leverage it across multiple sites, tons of clinicians. So so with, you know, shorthand, is it potentially larger group practices that would really need to make sure that simple practice was aligned with the systems that they already had in place?
Diana Stepner 44:12
Yeah, I think that's a great description. And we do have large group practices on simple practice, but it is, yeah, simple practice was designed originally for the solo and for the smaller practices. So as you're saying, you may get to a size of, you know, 500 clinicians where you need to have those forced workflows just to be able to manage that, that group of individuals. That makes sense.
Curt Widhalm 44:34
So I know, with any tech company, you can't release too much of what you've got in development. But sir, anything that you can share of what's coming up next.
Diana Stepner 44:45
Yeah, and so from a recent product development perspective, we're looking at improving client billing even more areas of the overview page as well as automating the closing pay periods, as well as you know, aspects from telehealth So again, a lot driven by the community and feedback in regards to areas that you know, our clients, customers want to see improvements in the other areas on the professional website, we talked about it. And it's an amazing product that's has a lot of potential. And so we want to continue with updates there too. And being able to make it as simple and clean foundation for the clinician to tell their story about their practice and better engage with their client base. So that is going to continue to evolve the monarch. Again, it's new. So we'll continue to make improvements to monarch in regards to offering improved ways to match with clinicians and clients. And yeah, from there, I think we'll just continue with improvements to the product and areas that the community identifies. Yeah, we will, we should focus on. So how does someone sign up? Yeah, so someone signs up, simple, easy process. And so if someone wants to go to WWW dot simple practice, comm slash therapy reimagined, we actually have a promotion that's going on. So if you sign up, you'll receive a free 30 day trial plus one additional month free after you become a paid subscriber.
Katie Vernoy 46:17
Yay. And we are paid affiliate with simple practice. So we will get a little bit of money in our pocket. So thank you very much. If someone's wanting to take advantage of this offer, we'll put the link in the show notes. How would you recommend them kind of going in and kind of investigating if simple practices for them.
Diana Stepner 46:36
So I think the free trial is an amazing way to get started, we also have steps that guide people through how to get started. So I do recommend following those steps. There's in the first step, you set up your practice, and we have videos that help you get an overview of the features and functions within simple practice. From there, you're guided to be able to set up your your website presence, so that you can put your your sign out on the internet that you are available, and then walking through how to manage, you know, an actual client. So we have a client that's in there as a demo account to be able to help you work through all the features before you're ready to open your door. And then from there, yeah, being able to have conversations with you know, that focus on onboarding can help people get started to the within the couple of steps that get people up and running. It's a great way just to learn more about simple practice and make sure there's a fit. There's a lot that's happening within simple practice. So appreciate having the opportunity to share. Yeah, a lot of the highlights with you. Thank you very much, Diana, for joining us. Thank you.
Katie Vernoy 47:50
Okay, so we were able to listen to Howard's vision for the company. And for the product. We talked about the specific features. And so now it's our turn. And so I guess the the way we start this Curt is Who do you think simple practices for like, who are the modern therapists that you would recommend simple practice to?
Curt Widhalm 48:10
simple practice is definitely for the tech minded therapists, those who are really starting out in their practice wanting to build an ecosystem around having everything all in one place. And I can speak from my own experience on this, doing this from the very beginning. If you're getting out there and launching into your practice, I know that I have I had pushed simple practice away for years I had my own kind of in the office thing set up. And it took me a little while to fully transition things over and one of the biggest regrets that I have from my career is not having done this sooner, because it is kind of a learning curve to move things over get things set up. And if this had always just been the way then it would have been a lot easier to move into and not as difficult as time consuming to move everything over.
Katie Vernoy 49:07
Yeah, I think that's a good point. So I think what you're saying is definitely there's there's an element of tech savviness that's needed there's there's videos throughout on how you set things up. But there's there's a there cannot be a fear of technology
Curt Widhalm 49:20
Right
Katie Vernoy 49:20
that may be true for all all electronic health records but because I think simple practice relies on a lot of demos and and videos, you're going to want to not be terrified by it. I think the other thing and Howard spoke to this is that it was originally designed for solo practitioners who were private pay, and I think that definitely is still probably the strongest choice but I definitely know for myself that insurance billing is a breeze and so I would I would say for folks who were insurance billing, private pay or hybrid solo practitioners - unreserved recommendation.
Curt Widhalm 49:59
Totally
Katie Vernoy 50:00
As long as you are tech savvy, or at least comfortable with learning new technology.
Curt Widhalm 50:05
I'm a group practice owner, I have a small group practice. I know a lot of other group practice owners and have heard some of their desires to use other sort of platforms. And Howard also spoke about this too, coming from that place, and just watching simple practice grow of being a company that was designed for private practitioners, for the way that I have my Group Practice set up, simple practice works just fine. But I know that I don't run my practice in the same way that everybody else does. And I know the simple practice continues to grow. They talked about ways to give them feedback and have their community be able to push new things to their design team to continue to add new features. And I think that they've done so with group practices largely in mind over the last several years. But for those people who need some of the other functions, there are some limitations on where simple practice is when it comes to managing a group. And it's something that you should evaluate if you are interested in simple practice to see if what their features currently are those that meet the needs of you and your team.
Katie Vernoy 51:13
And I do some consulting with group practice owners. And I think that there are potentially some reports that you want to check out to see what's there and what you would recreate. I think there's functionality that simple practice has that other electronic health records do not as far as just overall practice. And so I think, identifying what your needs are. And size of group, number of clients seen, I think sometimes some, some practice management systems are by number of users, some are by number of clients. So you just want to see what's going to make sense for you. But I think, overall, I think we're saying solo practitioner, absolutely check it out, see if it aligns with how you think about things. For group practice owners check to make sure it has the functionality you like and need for the way that you run your group practice.
Curt Widhalm 52:05
Katie, anyone that shouldn't use simple practice?
Katie Vernoy 52:10
I think the people who are terrified by technology and really want to have somebody on the phone with them walking through things that this may not be the practice management system for them. I think that there's a more of a I don't even know what the right word is. But there's there's there are some folks that really desire the on demand phone support, they want to have that type of interaction. I know we've all talked about the different ways that you can get support with simple practice. And they think chatting and screen sharing and setting up meetings and going by email, sometimes that works for folks. And sometimes it doesn't. So I think being able to really understand that elements, there's potentially a lot of setup, there's a lot of customization, which makes it amazing, but then that means that you have to actually do it. And so there are there's like this little cottage industry of people that help a simple practice. So we won't mention that here except to say that there are there is assistance if you love the system, but then feel a little bit overwhelmed by learning it or setting it up. But for folks who don't want to spend extra money setting up simple practice, and who are afraid of technology, I'd say this is not the right system for you. So the final piece that I think is important is how to get the most or special considerations for using simple practice. And you and I talked about this at a time, and you kind of mentioned it, it is the amount of time it takes to set it up. I would say that if you start with it, it's very helpful because your clients are just rolling right into the system. And there's not really set up, it's just each client does their own their own file, they do all the stuff. There's some customization you want to look at. But it doesn't have to be a huge setup. But if you've already got a practice in place, with all your forms already created, getting that setup takes some time. The other consideration is a lot of folks will get started with it, but they won't use all the functionality. And I think that's the part where, especially if you're on the pro plan, and you have all the functionality use it, it actually makes everything very streamlined. If you don't use all the functionality, it's not necessarily the right i think system for you. So making sure that you actually put the time aside to set it up I think is important.
Curt Widhalm 54:23
Absolutely. And there are new features or features that have always been there that I fully admit that I don't use. And so it does make it worthwhile when you investigate what's actually there and the portions of simple practice that I do use. I find her very worthwhile investment for me and my practice. And knowing that there's more out there makes it easy thing for me to say. Yeah, check it out. Go ahead and use it if it works for you and make sure that you give it a fair shake and a full evaluation. So you can check out our show notes about this episode including timestamps to specific questions at MTS g podcast.com. And thank you for joining us on this adventure through our first ever modern therapist consumer guide. And until next time, I'm currently at home with Katie Vernoy.
Announcer 55:21
Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTS g podcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.
Being a Therapist on Both Sides of the Couch An interview with Rwenshaun Miller, LCMHC, where he shares what therapists get wrong when understanding the client perspective and how to genuinely connect with clients. Curt and Katie chat with Rwenshaun about tough questions on racial bias in diagnosing and the impact of systemic structures in Black and brown communities. They also discuss a vision for an ideal mental health system and suggestions for how to start advocating for change.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Rwenshaun Miller, MA, LCMHC, NCC Rwenshaun Miller is an accomplished author, motivational speaker, counselor, consultant and philanthropist who has dedicated his life and career to, not only reshaping the negative connotations often associated with mental health, but also directly impacting the lives of those living with mental health challenges. Of all his accolades and roles, Mr. Miller proudly first serves as a Mental Health Change Agent. As a result, Mr. Miller has globally impacted the lives of many through his awareness efforts.
Mr. Miller’s relentless passion and commitment derived from his personal experience living with Bipolar Disorder. Through his journey, Mr. Miller initially encountered similar challenges many face, including that of acceptance of a mental health diagnosis. Eventually, Mr. Miller decided to not allow this diagnosis to define and debilitate him realizing that Bipolar Disorder is not what defines who he is. Thus, he embarked on a path to help uplift, empower, encourage and teach others who live with mental health challenges how to “thrive” in life.
In this episode we talk about: * Rwenshaun’s story of encountering systemic barriers while facing his own mental health challenges and how he uses his experience as a client to inform his work as a therapist as well as educate other therapists. * Looking at “both sides of the couch” and bridging the differences between what we learn as clients and what we are taught to do as therapists. * Discussion of what therapists do wrong when it comes to understanding the client perspective. * The utility of diagnosing as well as problems with treating someone like a diagnosis (impact on self-perspective, living up to the diagnosis, etc.) * Examining how inherent white bias shows up in diagnosing and how to consider environmental factors when conceptualizing a client’s behavior. * Exploration of how systemic structures impact the mental health of BIPOC youth and the need to challenge the systems that hold these individuals back. * Looking at ways to step outside the box of conventional therapy techniques to meet client’s where they are at and connect with them as a person (engaging clients in video games, basketball, yoga, etc.). * Discussion of how to set the stage for therapy to ensure it is comfortable for the therapist and client. * Exploration of how the stigma of mental health has changed in BIPOC communities and what is needed to change systemically to continue reducing the stigma. * Envisioning an ideal for how therapists and systemic structures can support the mental health needs of society, along with examining current barriers and how work to reduce them. * The importance of advocating for preventative care to improve mental health care.
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to help them gain financial peace of mind and assist them with making smart financial decisions.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly service options that can be catered to a practice’s needs - from basic bookkeeping to premium CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Rwenshaun’s website
Eustress Inc.
Eustressin Journal
Injured Reserve: A Black Man's Playbook To Manage Being Sidelined By Mental Illness
Twitter: @Rwenshaun
Facebook: Rwenshaun Miller
Instagram: @Rwenshaun
Relevant Episodes:
Therapists in Therapy
Black Mental Health
It’s NOT a Chemical Imbalance
Ally is a Verb
Therapy is a Political Act
Let’s Talk About Race
Cultural Humility and White Fatigue
The Person of the Therapist
What Clients Want
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Being a Therapist on Both Sides of the Couch An interview with Rwenshaun Miller, LCMHC, where he shares what therapists get wrong when understanding the client perspective and how to genuinely connect with clients. Curt and Katie chat with Rwenshaun about tough questions on racial bias in diagnosing and the impact of systemic structures in Black and brown communities. They also discuss a vision for an ideal mental health system and suggestions for how to start advocating for change.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Rwenshaun Miller, MA, LCMHC, NCC Rwenshaun Miller is an accomplished author, motivational speaker, counselor, consultant and philanthropist who has dedicated his life and career to, not only reshaping the negative connotations often associated with mental health, but also directly impacting the lives of those living with mental health challenges. Of all his accolades and roles, Mr. Miller proudly first serves as a Mental Health Change Agent. As a result, Mr. Miller has globally impacted the lives of many through his awareness efforts.
Mr. Miller’s relentless passion and commitment derived from his personal experience living with Bipolar Disorder. Through his journey, Mr. Miller initially encountered similar challenges many face, including that of acceptance of a mental health diagnosis. Eventually, Mr. Miller decided to not allow this diagnosis to define and debilitate him realizing that Bipolar Disorder is not what defines who he is. Thus, he embarked on a path to help uplift, empower, encourage and teach others who live with mental health challenges how to “thrive” in life.
In this episode we talk about: * Rwenshaun’s story of encountering systemic barriers while facing his own mental health challenges and how he uses his experience as a client to inform his work as a therapist as well as educate other therapists. * Looking at “both sides of the couch” and bridging the differences between what we learn as clients and what we are taught to do as therapists. * Discussion of what therapists do wrong when it comes to understanding the client perspective. * The utility of diagnosing as well as problems with treating someone like a diagnosis (impact on self-perspective, living up to the diagnosis, etc.) * Examining how inherent white bias shows up in diagnosing and how to consider environmental factors when conceptualizing a client’s behavior. * Exploration of how systemic structures impact the mental health of BIPOC youth and the need to challenge the systems that hold these individuals back. * Looking at ways to step outside the box of conventional therapy techniques to meet client’s where they are at and connect with them as a person (engaging clients in video games, basketball, yoga, etc.). * Discussion of how to set the stage for therapy to ensure it is comfortable for the therapist and client. * Exploration of how the stigma of mental health has changed in BIPOC communities and what is needed to change systemically to continue reducing the stigma. * Envisioning an ideal for how therapists and systemic structures can support the mental health needs of society, along with examining current barriers and how work to reduce them. * The importance of advocating for preventative care to improve mental health care.
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to help them gain financial peace of mind and assist them with making smart financial decisions.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly service options that can be catered to a practice’s needs - from basic bookkeeping to premium CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Rwenshaun’s website
Eustress Inc.
Eustressin Journal
Injured Reserve: A Black Man's Playbook To Manage Being Sidelined By Mental Illness
Twitter: @Rwenshaun
Facebook: Rwenshaun Miller
Instagram: @Rwenshaun
Relevant Episodes:
Therapists in Therapy
Black Mental Health
It’s NOT a Chemical Imbalance
Ally is a Verb
Therapy is a Political Act
Let’s Talk About Race
Cultural Humility and White Fatigue
The Person of the Therapist
What Clients Want
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
At Least 3 Reasons Continuing Education Sucks Curt and Katie chat about why continuing education is usually pretty ineffective. We dig into a listener question related to repackaged, introductory level, uninspiring presentations. We look at the systemic concerns related to CE standards as well as the difficulty balancing high quality education with affordability. We explore research that shows that continuing education (especially when it is solely didactic) does not impact client outcomes. We also share ideas to improve continuing education for the next generation of clinicians.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The problems with continuing education rules and what that means for the types of education modern therapists often can find * The ways in which presenters repackage others’ material * Continuing education is not proven to improve client outcomes * CE standards that limit the innovation and interactive capability * How most CE is very general and appropriate for all levels of clinicians (not solely intermediate to advanced therapists) * The type of didactic training that might be impactful or effective (but may not be CE worthy) * The problem with not having practical applications involved in presentations * Learning, practicing and then doing * Why effective continuing education is expensive and whether they make a difference in being better therapists * Deliberate practice and the effectiveness of spending time outside of session (and training) practicing skills * Practice-based evidence (measuring how well our clients are doing) and why this is the strongest way to do better work * The importance of giving accurate feedback to CE providers * The acknowledgement and acceptance within the system that CE doesn’t really work – and the push back and reasons why people within the system don’t want to fix it * Assessing competence and engagement in training (pros and cons) * The balance between accessibility and accountability * The shelf-life of graduate education and the need for continuing education * Our vision related to continuing education and learning
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing, scheduling, and even marketing.
More than 100,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to help them gain financial peace of mind and assist them with making smart financial decisions.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly service options that can be catered to a practice’s needs - from basic bookkeeping to premium CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Cycle of Excellence by Tony Rousmaniere
Dr. Joy DeGruy
Why TED Talks don't change people's behaviors: Tom Asacker at TEDxCambridge 2014
Scott Miller, PhD: Deliberate Practice
Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT – Ben Caldwell Labs
Articles:
Impact of Formal Continuing Medical Education
Does Professional Training Make a Therapist More Effective?
Relevant Episodes:
All Deliberate Practice episodes
Be a Better Therapist
Finding Your Blind Spots
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
How to Stay in Your Lane to Support Diversity and Inclusion An interview with Dr. Joy Cox, PhD, on tapping into the strength of community and genuine relationships to understand and address systemic oppression. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Joy about intersectionality, the harmful stories we can tell ourselves about people who are different from us, and what we can do to best support diversity and inclusion in all the spaces we inhabit. We also address why it is important to do some of this work privately (rather than working it out publicly through statements on social media).
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Joy Cox, PhD Dr. Joy Cox is a body justice advocate using her skill set in research and leadership to foster social change through the promotion of fat acceptance and diversity and inclusion. With 37 years living as a fat, Black cisgendered woman and 7+ years of professional experience under her belt, Dr. Cox draws on her own experiences and skill set to amplify the voices of those most marginalized in society, bringing attention to matters of intersectionality addressing race, body size, accessibility, and “health.”
Joy has been featured on several podcasts and media productions such as Food Pysch with Christy Harrison, Nalgona Positivity Pride with Gloria Lucas, Fat Women of Color with Ivy Felicia, and Huffington Post’s piece, “Everything You Know About Obesity is Wrong.” She also just authored her first book, Fat Girls in Black Bodies: Creating Communities of Our Own. She is the voice of an overcomer, looking to propel others into a place of freedom designed by their desires.
In this episode we talk about: * What Dr. Joy is putting out into the world * Intersectionality and bias, stigma * How to take an intersectional approach * The importance of genuine relationships in understanding others * Discussing the panel discussion in the conference when addressing learning about others * The harm of putting work on individuals with lived experience * Why and when you should pay for expert consultation * The challenge of googling to learn (when it works and when to seek expert guidance) * The importance of saying no when someone is asking you to become a spokesperson * The exponential impact of intersectionality of marginalized identities * How intersectional identities compound to create narratives * Anything that is heavily stigmatized in society – racism is not far behind it * Knowledge without learning to implement * Why you should find your lane and move accordingly * How to identify what you can and should do to support inclusion * The importance of identifying where to do the work, it doesn’t have to be public * Why individuals need to learn themselves, understand their heart, and identify who they are * Getting it right is better than getting it fast * Having the important conversations and checking in with the people who matter * The unreasonable expectation to have an opinion on everything * The benefits of community with each person staying in their lane * Creating community that includes all people and the strength that provides * Pushing back on the idea that everyone has to be able to do all of the roles * We need to change how we think and we need to change how we feel to uncover more space than we knew was available for all people
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Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
*Please note that Therapy Reimagined is a paid affiliate of SimplePractice and will receive a little bit of money in our pockets if you sign up using the above link.
GreenOak Accounting At GreenOak Accounting, they believe that every private practice should be profitable. They’ve worked with hundreds of practice owners across the country to help them gain financial peace of mind and assist them with making smart financial decisions.
GreenOak Accounting specializes in working with therapists in private practice, and they have helped hundreds of therapists across the country reach their financial goals. They offer a number of monthly service options that can be catered to a practice’s needs - from basic bookkeeping to premium CFO services. Other specialized services include Profit First Support, compensation planning, and customized KPI Dashboards. They help therapists achieve their clinical goals by making sure they have a profitable practice, and offer unsurpassed support along the way.
If you’re interested in scheduling a complimentary consultation, please visit their website at www.GreenOakAccounting.com/consultation to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Joy Cox's Website
Jabbie App
Dr. Joy on Instagram: FreshOutTheCocoon
Dr. Joy on Twitter
Dr. Joy's Book: Fat Girls in Black Bodies Creating a New Space of Belonging
The Care Bear Stare
Relevant Episodes:
Health At Every Size
Cultural Humility and White Fatigue
Therapy as a Political Act
Black Mental Health
Let’s Talk About Race
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Why You Should Stop Trying to Convince Clients to Change An interview with Hillary Bolter, LCSW, on Motivational Interviewing. Curt and Katie chat with Hillary about what MI really is, what therapists often get wrong when supporting clients in making changes, and the importance of how therapists show up for this evidence-based model.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Hillary Bolter, MSW, LCSW, LCAS Hillary is one of those folks that inherently thinks they have great ideas and solutions for people upon first encounter (Enneagram 1!). She’s ready to jump in and FIX! When she began her MI learning process, she realized just how essential MI was going to be for her energy, effectiveness, and longevity in the helping profession!
She has been a member of the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT) since 2011. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker & Addiction Therapist and absolutely delights in helping individuals, groups, and organizations learn the essential skills of Motivational Interviewing. She has worked as a helping professional for 20 years, ranging from working in wilderness therapy to community mental health, providing in home & school-based services, as a therapist with specialties including working with anxiety, trauma, addiction, and veterans.
In this episode we talk about: * Motivational Interviewing (MI) is simple but not easy * The righting reflex – the tendency for therapists to try to persuade toward change * The differences between MI and the stages of change * What does “using MI” really mean? * The spirit of MI – the attitude we bring to our clients – empathy, collaboration, evocation, acceptance and compassion * OARS skills: open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries * Change talk – the more people talk about change, the more likely they are to change * Focusing on why people would like to change * When we focus on why TO change, clients may argue against change (voicing the ambivalence) * How therapists may want to navigate changes that feel urgent (unsafe behaviors, for example) * Three styles of communication: following, guiding, directing * The ways to move from directing or educating back into a more collaborative stance * Why MI isn’t more widely used * The ways that MI skills could intermingle with other theoretical orientation * The idea around walking with your clients * Looking at the myth that motivational interviewing is manipulative * How to assess whether the change is in the client’s best interest * The focusing process as a way to ensure client participation * Motivational Interviewing is a communication technique * Distinguishing between the motivations that drive the change – focusing on the best interest of the client is the only one that really is MI * The importance of experiential training for MI
Our Generous Sponsors: Productive Therapist You should be able to change the world and love your life. Productive Therapist can help you save time, make more money and feel a sense of relief. They provide mental health virtual assistants, business coaching, and unique training & support programs. Do you want to get more organized, be more productive & learn to delegate like a pro? If so, the Productive Therapist Insider program can help! It's a monthly membership that includes full access to their online course library, an exclusive print newsletter, personalized support and discounts on coaching services. The program will help you get more done, so you can have more fun! As a listener of this podcast, you can get the first month for just $1 by using the coupon code MODERN. Visit ProductiveTherapist.com/insider to learn more.
Mulberry Web Design Mulberry is a creative studio known for building fabulous custom websites, reasonable rates, and an obsessive dedication to customer service. The friendly team at Mulberry can take your private practice website to the next level with a complete redesign or help with your current website. Mulberry is a perfect fit for modern therapists ready to improve their online business presence. As a special welcome to listeners of this podcast, Mulberry is offering a 10% discount (up to $250!) on any service they provide. Mention the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast to receive your welcome discount.
Visit Mulberry at MulberryWebDesign.com today.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Hillary’s website: bolterconsulting.com
- Special offer: use “MTSG” for 10% off a foundations of MI course
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hillarybolter/
Hillary's Facebook Group
Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT)
Relevant Episodes:
How to BE a Therapist
Is CBT Crap?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Post Pandemic Practice Curt and Katie chat about what our practices can look like post pandemic. We explore the creativity that the pandemic has inspired and what the clinical and business implications might be for continuing in flexible modalities. We talk about logistics, clinical evaluation, and ethics related to the options available for the clients. We also talk about how to take care of yourself while taking care of clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How creativity can be used in practice * Different options for therapy (telehealth, outdoor/walk and talk, in-person, concierge) * The logistical challenges of having different options for your clients (different locations, different modalities, etc.) * The flexibility required during the pandemic and how to adjust schedules after returning * The benefits of having so many options * Boundaries and flexibility needed to manage a multimodal practice * The importance of communication and teamwork * The benefits of this flexibility to clinicians * The considerations of cost and charging different fees, and rationale for how you set fees * The clinical benefits and challenges for different modalities * The necessary documentation of rationale * Clinical considerations for in-person sessions * Some CYA advice * The importance of taking this time to deliberately design the practice you want
Our Generous Sponsors: Mulberry Web Design Mulberry is a creative studio known for building fabulous custom websites, reasonable rates, and an obsessive dedication to customer service. The friendly team at Mulberry can take your private practice website to the next level with a complete redesign or help with your current website. Mulberry is a perfect fit for modern therapists ready to improve their online business presence. As a special welcome to listeners of this podcast, Mulberry is offering a 10% discount (up to $250!) on any service they provide. Mention the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast to receive your welcome discount.
Visit Mulberry at MulberryWebDesign.com today.
Productive Therapist You should be able to change the world and love your life. Productive Therapist can help you save time, make more money and feel a sense of relief. They provide mental health virtual assistants, business coaching, and unique training & support programs. Do you want to get more organized, be more productive & learn to delegate like a pro? If so, the Productive Therapist Insider program can help! It's a monthly membership that includes full access to their online course library, an exclusive print newsletter, personalized support and discounts on coaching services. The program will help you get more done, so you can have more fun! As a listener of this podcast, you can get the first month for just $1 by using the coupon code MODERN. Visit ProductiveTherapist.com/insider to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
APA Article - COVID-19: When is it OK to provide more in-person services?
Outdoor therapy: Jennifer Deacon, MBACP
Leadership article – Checklist for Post Pandemic Reentry
Relevant Episodes:
Returning to the Office
Taking a Shot at Vaccines
Interview with Anita Avedian, LMFT: Open to Opportunity
Interview with Megan Costello, LMFT: Field-Based Private Practice
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy An interview with Dr. Craig Heacock, M.D., about innovative treatments in psychiatry. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Heacock about psychedelic-assisted therapy – looking at efficacy, safety, and risks for these promising treatments (ketamine, psilocybin, and MDMA) for depression and trauma. We also discuss the debate about medicalization versus legalization of these substances.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Craig Heacock, M.D. Dr. Craig Heacock is an adolescent/adult psychiatrist and addiction specialist in Colorado as well as the co-producer and host of the psychiatric storytelling podcast Back from the Abyss. He was a therapist in the Phase 3 trial of MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD and has particular interest in the use of ketamine and other psychedelics to treat severe mood disorders and PTSD. He is a graduate of the University of New Mexico School of Medicine and did his psychiatry training at Brown University.
In this episode we talk about: * The innovations in psychedelic-assisted therapy * Why it is so hard to find a good psychiatrist, especially one that goes beyond med checks * How psychiatry is changing, as well as how little has changed in medication since 1994 * Treatment-resistant may mean deep-seated trauma * Definitions of psychedelics, psychedelic-assisted treatment * Ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin * Efficacy for treatment with ketamine, MDMA, psilocybin for trauma and depression * The speed of building trust and moving into the working phase with these treatments * Safety concerns and side effects with ketamine, psilocybin, and MDMA * Boundaries and safety for therapists (as well as clients) during these treatments * The vulnerability during these treatments * Self-assessment for mental health providers whether they should work in this space * The importance of doing your own psychedelic treatment before being a therapist in this work * Client-perceptions of clinicians doing their own psychedelic work (or publicly owning their story) * The increasing acceptance of these types of treatments – the treatments becoming more mainstream * Psilocybin – in trials for FDA approval for trauma treatment, but may be legalized before it is medicalized and used for treatment * Medicalization versus legalization conversation * The problems with medical THC (including making symptoms worse and psychotic breaks) * Micro-dosing efficacy and risks and whether they should be managed by a doctor * The importance of assessing sleep and substance use/abuse * Abyss stories – how Dr. Heacock started telling these stories and the power of these stories
Our Generous Sponsors: Productive Therapist You should be able to change the world and love your life. Productive Therapist can help you save time, make more money and feel a sense of relief. They provide mental health virtual assistants, business coaching, and unique training & support programs. Do you want to get more organized, be more productive & learn to delegate like a pro? If so, the Productive Therapist Insider program can help! It's a monthly membership that includes full access to their online course library, an exclusive print newsletter, personalized support and discounts on coaching services. The program will help you get more done, so you can have more fun! As a listener of this podcast, you can get the first month for just $1 by using the coupon code MODERN. Visit ProductiveTherapist.com/insider to learn more.
Mulberry Web Design Mulberry is a creative studio known for building fabulous custom websites, reasonable rates, and an obsessive dedication to customer service. The friendly team at Mulberry can take your private practice website to the next level with a complete redesign or help with your current website. Mulberry is a perfect fit for modern therapists ready to improve their online business presence. As a special welcome to listeners of this podcast, Mulberry is offering a 10% discount (up to $250!) on any service they provide. Mention the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast to receive your welcome discount.
Visit Mulberry at MulberryWebDesign.com today.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Craig Heacock, MD Website
Back from the Abyss Podcast
Interview with Lisa Ling
Laura Northrup Inside Eyes Podcast
Article: Self-admitted psychedelic use and association with psychedelic culture harm perceptions of researchers’ scientific integrity
Relevant Episodes:
It’s NOT a Chemical Imbalance
Preventing Client Suicide
Therapists Struggling with Darkness
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Serious Mental Illness and Homelessness An interview with California State Senator Henry Stern and Dr. Curley Bonds, Chief Medical Officer for Los Angeles County Department of Mental Health about legislation and programmatic changes needed to better serve highly vulnerable individuals. Curt and Katie talk with both Senator Stern and Dr. Bonds about the limitations of Laura’s Law and the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act as well as the hope for stronger, more collaborative mental health initiatives for individuals grappling with serious mental illness and homelessness. We talk about the practical funding and workforce concerns as well as how to fix them while also supporting mental health professionals.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Senator Henry Stern (D-Los Angeles) and Dr. Curley Bonds, CMO for LA County Department of Mental Health Senator Henry Stern is a sixth-generation Californian and native of the greater Los Angeles area who has represented the nearly one million residents of the 27th Senate District since first being elected to serve the 27th Senate District in November 2016.
Stern has chaired the Senate Natural Resources & Water Committee since 2018, where he has worked tirelessly to bolster the state’s wildfire preparedness, push to have the state address the climate change emergency, improve our democracy and fight to help some of California’s most vulnerable members. He was also recently appointed as Chair of the Joint Legislative Committee on Emergency Management. In addition, Stern sits on the Senate’s Budget, Environmental Quality, Judiciary, and Energy, Utilities & Communications committees, as well as the Budget Subcommittee on Resources, Environmental Protection & Energy.
A former educator and environmental attorney, Stern received his undergraduate degree from Harvard University and earned his law degree at UC Berkeley. Born in 1982, Stern lives in Los Angeles County with his wife, Alexandra Stern, whom he married in 2019.
Curley L. Bonds, M.D., oversees all clinical practices for the Los Angeles Country Department of Mental Health (LACDMH) as well as the full range of programs that function to engage and stabilize clients by bringing them into the Department’s community-based system of care.
Dr. Bonds is a psychiatrist with extensive experience in a variety of clinical, academic and research settings. Most recently, he was the Chair of Psychiatry and Behavioral Medicine at Charles R. Drew University School of Medicine in Los Angeles and the Medical Director for Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services. His areas of expertise include healthcare disparities, cross cultural psychiatry, psychosomatic medicine, and collaborative healthcare.
Dr. Bonds has won numerous teaching and advocacy awards including Chief Resident of the Year in 1996 and The Exemplary Psychiatrist Award from the National Alliance on Mental Illness in 2009. He is active with several professional organizations including the American Association of Community Psychiatrists, the Association of LGBTQ Psychiatrists, the Black Psychiatrists of America and the American Psychiatric Association. Dr. Bonds is a Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association and a Fellow of the Academy of Consultation-Liaison Psychiatry. He is a past president of the Southern California Psychiatric Society and the recipient of their 2018 Distinguished Service Award.
He completed his B.A. in sociology at Emory University and earned his M.D. from Indiana University School of Medicine.
In this episode we talk about: * Continuing our special series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America * What the ideal mental health care can look like for individuals with serious mental illness, substance abuse treatment, and navigating homelessness * The siloed nature of services at present * The importance of consistent engagement and familiarity * Recovery-oriented and person-centered care * The importance of self-directed care * Wraparound services * The importance of engaging people with lived experience * Culturally responsive services * The current laws protect autonomy without the means to support people without capacity * The bureaucracy that is keeping people from getting the services they need * Changes to Laura’s Law and LPS Act that are needed to better serve individuals with grave disability or require conservatorship * Engagement, rights, and how to better serve individuals * Assisted Outpatient Treatment – how it can be best utilized and most effective * The ability to shift things through budget and regulatory changes * The understanding that current caseloads that are too high and the need to add resources * Alternatives to long term conservatorship * The willingness to invest in services and solutions * Balancing the tension between self-advocacy/self-determination versus providing care * Mental Health Advanced Directives as a tool to help with making these decisions * Who can and should be at the table in making these decisions * The desire to invest in people to provide services * Whether to invest and how to assess efficacy * The problem of the fragmented systems and communication about mental health advanced directives * The importance of education for people needing and providing care on the options * Looking at the benefits and “selling” the positive elements of assisted treatment * Letting clinicians do clinical work – why that’s important and ideas of how to make it work * Tracking outcomes effectively while diminishing bureaucracy * Looking at the most effective goals and outcomes for clients * Looking at unfunded mandates and how to support therapists and clients to get services without so much paper pushing and complicated outcomes * Having service providers at the table to create the programs effectively * Results-driven metrics and payment (the pros and cons) * Addressing policy and stigma * Looking at the problems with the current process for services and conservatorship * Ideas for redirecting funding and working in collaboration with law enforcement * How to take part in these efforts and weigh in on legislation, especially early in the process * Our reflections on the interviews and the next steps
Our Generous Sponsors: Mulberry Web Design Mulberry is a creative studio known for building fabulous custom websites, reasonable rates, and an obsessive dedication to customer service. The friendly team at Mulberry can take your private practice website to the next level with a complete redesign or help with your current website. Mulberry is a perfect fit for modern therapists ready to improve their online business presence. As a special welcome to listeners of this podcast, Mulberry is offering a 10% discount (up to $250!) on any service they provide. Mention the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast to receive your welcome discount.
Visit Mulberry at MulberryWebDesign.com today.
Productive Therapist You should be able to change the world and love your life. Productive Therapist can help you save time, make more money and feel a sense of relief. They provide mental health virtual assistants, business coaching, and unique training & support programs. Do you want to get more organized, be more productive & learn to delegate like a pro? If so, the Productive Therapist Insider program can help! It's a monthly membership that includes full access to their online course library, an exclusive print newsletter, personalized support and discounts on coaching services. The program will help you get more done, so you can have more fun! As a listener of this podcast, you can get the first month for just $1 by using the coupon code MODERN. Visit ProductiveTherapist.com/insider to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Los Angeles Times Op-Ed: Our mental health laws are failing
Laura’s Law
LPS: Lanterman-Petris-Short Law
Dr. Partovi in Skid Row
California Tax Law H - Homeless Initiative
MHSA: Mental Health Services Act
Office of Senator Henry Stern (D-Los Angeles): State Capitol, Room 5080, Sacramento, CA 95814, (916) 527-4947
RAND Report: How to Transform the US Mental Health System
Relevant Episodes:
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Fixing Mental Healthcare in America An interview with Dr. Nicole Eberhart and Dr. Ryan McBain from the RAND Corporation. Curt and Katie kick of their special series related to the problems and potential solutions in the mental healthcare system. We interview Drs. Eberhart and McBain about the study they authored related to the structural concerns in the mental health system as it is currently built and their recommendations for solutions and best practices going forward.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Nicole Eberhart, Senior Behavioral Scientist, and Dr. Ryan McBain, Policy Researcher, The RAND Corporation Nicole Eberhart, PhD is a Senior Behavioral Scientist at the RAND Corporation and a licensed clinical psychologist whose research and evaluation focuses on mental health. She has expertise in health program evaluation, prevention and early intervention, health services and systems, and innovative care models including those that integrate primary and behavioral health care. Dr. Eberhart been evaluating mental health programs and policies in California and nationally for over a decade.
Ryan K. McBain is a policy researcher at the RAND Corporation. He focuses on the design and evaluation of health policies and programs meant to reach vulnerable populations—including those coping with mental health conditions, HIV/AIDS, homelessness, and poverty. To achieve this, McBain has utilized a wide range of methodologies, including econometric approaches for quasi-experimental analysis, cost-effectiveness analysis, and decision analytic models, as well as key informant interviews and focus group discussions. Internationally, McBain has worked with the World Bank, World Health Organization, Harvard University and Partners In Health, where he has focused on evaluating mental health, HIV, and primary care service delivery systems, primarily in sub-Saharan Africa and Haiti. McBain holds a Ph.D. and M.P.H. in global health with concentrations in health economics and health policy analysis from Harvard University, as well as a B.A. in psychology from Gordon College and Oxford University in the United Kingdom.
In this episode we talk about: * Introducing our new series on Fixing Mental Healthcare in America * RAND corporation report on the mental health system * Structural issues in the current mental health system * Work force issues, lack of professionals, poor distribution across communities * Payment issues – Mental Health providers are not paid as well as other medical providers * The problem of fee for service, government insurance programs, and private pay * Culture problem – historical lack of value of mental health, stigma and de-prioritization of mental health * Lack of educational programs for mental health, lack of consistent, effective crisis response * The idea of increasing wages for entry level positions * Peer Support Specialists as another way to expand mental health workforce * The importance of lived experience and the professionalization of the peer support specialist profession (for example certification) * The idea of paying for value rather than paying for services * Focusing on prevention rather than costly emergency services * The need for legislators to make changes * The costs of not fixing the mental healthcare system * An evidence-based continuum of care * Taking a big picture approach (looking at the cost for services and the cost for society) * Pushing back against the cost question – looking at how we are improving lives and the hypocrisy of asking this of mental health care and not medical care * Using tools LOCUS (Level of Care Utilization System) to assess needs and enforce parity * Mental Health education in K-12 curriculums, standards for mental health education, and promising places to start * Mental Health First Aid – the problem one-time events and short-term effects * How telehealth can be an engine for change and the importance of increasing and maintaining the momentum – looking at increases in access to both general and specialist mental health care * Mental health crisis response as an avenue that has a lot of political will behind it (BLM, social justice, and policing that can be replaced by mental health providers) * Mental health access needed to respond to the new hotline: 988 * Arizona’s Crisis Now program and the impact they’ve seen from replacing police response to these incidents * Compartmentalization of different departments, budgets, etc. and the turf wars that can ensue * Being able to go to programs that are really doing good work and improving lives and using these as examples for what we should be doing as a whole country * The importance of advocacy at all levels * Coordination at a higher level to improve the integration of and care coordination for mental health care * Using the data from RAND to support advocacy * The comprehensive nature of the RAND report * The call to action for listeners to share their stories and experiences in the mental health system * The hope for an impact and on-going conversations that make a difference
Our Generous Sponsors: Productive Therapist You should be able to change the world and love your life. Productive Therapist can help you save time, make more money and feel a sense of relief. They provide mental health virtual assistants, business coaching, and unique training & support programs. Do you want to get more organized, be more productive & learn to delegate like a pro? If so, the Productive Therapist Insider program can help! It's a monthly membership that includes full access to their online course library, an exclusive print newsletter, personalized support and discounts on coaching services. The program will help you get more done, so you can have more fun! As a listener of this podcast, you can get the first month for just $1 by using the coupon code MODERN. Visit ProductiveTherapist.com/insider to learn more.
Mulberry Web Design Mulberry is a creative studio known for building fabulous custom websites, reasonable rates, and an obsessive dedication to customer service. The friendly team at Mulberry can take your private practice website to the next level with a complete redesign or help with your current website. Mulberry is a perfect fit for modern therapists ready to improve their online business presence. As a special welcome to listeners of this podcast, Mulberry is offering a 10% discount (up to $250!) on any service they provide. Mention the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast to receive your welcome discount.
Visit Mulberry at MulberryWebDesign.com today.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
RAND Report: How to Transform the US Mental Health System
Dr. Ryan McBain’s Publications
Dr. Nicole K Eberhart’s Publications
SAMHSA
Pubmed.gov
University of Michigan: Behavioral Workforce Research Center
Email them:
mentalhealth@rand.org
Twitter:
@RandCorporation
@NicoleKEberhart
Relevant Episodes:
A Living Wage for Prelicensees
Biden and Trump on Mental Health
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s NOT a Chemical Imbalance An interview with Dr. Kristen Syme on the situational and cultural impacts on depression. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Syme about the role anthropology can play in helping to challenge long held assumptions in psychology. We look at conceptualizations for depression and suicidality and how the over focus (in the Western world) on the individual as the agent for mental health and wellness. We talk about how the chemical imbalance model doesn’t hold up as well as better explanations for depression and suicidality.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Kristen Syme Ph.D. Dr. Kristin Syme is a biocultural anthropologist that investigates the human universals and cultural particularities of human psychology and behavior. Her research program is driven by the core belief that in order to advance our scientific understanding of human mind and behavior, we have to look outside the confines of our culture. What is normal? What is moral? What is healthy? The answers to these questions vary across time and space. Her research focuses on how human sociality can inform our understanding of depression, suicidality, and other mental health and behavioral issues. She uses a diverse set of research methodologies including ethnographic data, comparative cross-cultural analyses, confirmatory hypothesis testing, and exploratory research methods. A key finding from this research program is that social conflict and powerlessness often go hand-in-hand with depression and suicidality.
In this episode we talk about: * Syme’s research and how she is working to challenging assumptions * The lack of attention on networks and systems and an over-focus on “the self” as an agent for mental health and wellness * How psychological pain is signaling us that there are things in our environment that are unhealthy for us * Depression and psychological pain are not just within us, but also around us * What is wrong with the idea of “chemical imbalance” model * Adversity causes depression * The problem of saying “there’s a pill for that” * The work case for depression research * Ethical issues related to medicating away depression or psychological pain * How non-western cultures address psychological pain * There is “not a direct translation for depression in any other language” – Kristen Syme * The internal idea of the imbalance of black bile that leads directly through the ages to the concept of imbalance of serotonin * How other cultures talk about depression and situations, with more refined, specific language * How our language creates our reality around depression and how broadly we define it * How common depression (as broadly defined) is in the modern world * The lack of evidence for a “chemical imbalance” * How big pharma has impacted the conceptualization of depression * The inadequacy of treatment based on this conceptualization * Being called a psychopath regarding her framing of suicidality * Suicidality is a credible signal of need, but can be framed as black mail * The difference between suicidality and suicide death * The causes of suicidality: sexual assault, forced marriages, abuse * The problem of trivializing “seeking attention” * The tendency of coming up with “the theory” * Looking at how people might be better served by the mental health system * The importance of creativity and novelty in identifying better treatment
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Article: Mental health is biological health: Why tackling “diseases of the mind” is an imperative for biological anthropology in the 21st century
Dr. Kristen Syme on Twitter
Dr. Kristen Syme on Google Scholar
Relevant Episodes:
Burnout or Depression
Is Therapy an Opiate of the Masses?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Partners of Therapists Curt and Katie chat about how our job and training can impact our partners. We look at the benefits like emotional intelligence, resilience, and perspective. We also look at the challenges therapists and their partners face when trying to navigate being in relationship while one partner is navigating this career. Suggestions about how to navigate conversations and confidentiality as well as possibilities for improving relationships are discussed.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The impact of being a therapist on long-term relationships/partnerships * The insight into people and relationships that can be a benefit of partnering with a therapist * Expecting that the therapist will be the expert or do the emotional lifting * The concern that therapists overanalyze their relationships (don’t therapize me!) * Therapists breaking down characters in movies and books and ruining things for our partners * Positive communication and being able to navigate challenging conversations * The desire to talk about the relationship more frequently than our partners * The potential of differences when you start a relationship as a therapist or whether you start prior to becoming a therapist * Using our training to do what “successful couples” do * What might be different if one were to approach dating or starting relationships later * The challenge of not being able to talk about work at the end of the day (confidentiality) * Specific parameters around how to talk about one’s day (process versus content) * When partners aren’t part of our field, they don’t understand how our field works or what our job entails * The difficulty of processing trauma, countertransference, empathy fatigue * Gaps in the relationships with our partners related to partners not being able to process and handle challenging material * The challenge of leaving work at work, being able to relate to other people at the end of the day * The impact of the pandemic on childcare and balance of parenting and coparenting * Therapist dissociation and self-care * When our profession is overtaxed and we are overtaxed, our partners and kids can get pushed to the side * What therapists’ partners might need to be successful in these relationships * The lack of resources and resilience during the pandemic * The difficulty those who are in relationships with therapists understanding that they are human and that we are not always able to cope. * How our knowledge and resourcefulness can help with us taking care of ourselves and meeting the needs of our partners * The gratitude and love that we can share with our partners when we see how things go wrong * Our capacity to have challenging conversations to improve relationships * Emotional intelligence and perspective, self-awareness
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Our Facebook Group
Relevant Episodes:
Dating as a Therapist
Therapy with an Audience
Off Duty Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Bilingual Supervision An interview with Adriana Rodriguez, LMFT, about how to support bilingual, bicultural therapists. Curt and Katie talk with Adriana about her experiences as a clinician as well as her perception of the systemic concerns that bilingual/bicultural therapists face. We also dig into common work challenges for these clinicians, the ethical and competency concerns monolingual supervisors face, and specific action steps for individuals and organizations to increase the quality of supervision and training for these clinicians.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Adriana Rodriguez, LMFT (She/Her/Ella) Adriana Rodriguez (She/Her/Ella) is a California Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, she obtained a BA in Sociology from Sacramento State and a MA in Counseling Psychology from the University of San Francisco. Adriana is a bilingual, queer, Salvadorian immigrant woman who is passionate about destigmatizing mental health. Adriana’s lens is intersectional, she is passionate about understanding how intergenerational trauma compounded with personal trauma impacts the mental health of first-generation adult children of immigrants and QTBIPOC. Adriana works with individuals and dyads in private practice in Sacramento, CA.
In this episode we talk about: * Adriana’s story as a bilingual, bicultural therapist who immigrated from El Salvador * Experiences of immigration, learning English, and trauma * Criticism, bias, and navigating a different culture * The impacts of uninformed supervision on bilingual or monolingual clients * The requirement to build one’s own tools (i.e., translating documents) * What is getting lost in translation – linguistic, cultural, etc. * The importance of understanding context * The power differential within the clinical supervision * How do I level the playing field and share the power? * Sharing knowledge (rather than seeing the supervisor as the only person who has knowledge in the relationship) * Acknowledging and talking about differences * Ethical concerns and supervisor responsibility * The systemic challenges that bilingual clinicians can face in getting hired or promoted * The need for greater diversity in leadership roles * The idea of “first generation everything” * The make up of the job for bilingual clinicians * Survivor guilt – immigrating, learning English, education, and making it professionally * The identification and desire to empower clients that remind you of yourself, your family members * The exploitation of that desire by agencies who do not have sufficient bilingual clinicians * How frequently bilingual clinicians have large caseloads and not sufficient compensation or matching or curating of caseloads * The risk for burnout for these clinicians * The complexity of translation * The need for more research around the impacts of monolingual supervisors providing supervision on bilingual clinicians (as well as the impacts on monolingual or bilingual clients) * The constant need for self-awareness and re-examining your bias * Making sure to understand the differences between personality and culture * Adjusting case conceptualization, looking at the triad of supervisor-clinician-client
Our Generous Sponsor Practicery Practicery is a graphic design company for therapists that was founded by Kimberly and Justin Slagle - a husband and wife team who are passionate about authentic, purposeful, custom visual branding and web design that’s made to match you (not your neighbor and everyone else down the block). Their combined experience in design, marketing, and the mental health field are perfectly aligned to help you create a look and feel for your business that will showcase your authentic style, expertise, and make your ideal client not only say, “I’ve found the one!” but feel it from the second they interact with your brand.
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Visit Practicery’s website at practicery.com to schedule a free phone consult and learn more about how their awesome team can help kick your marketing up a notch, or ten.
And join Practicery’s Facebook Group Therapists Who Brand for lots of great branding + marketing resources, expert advice, and networking opportunities.
*Mention this podcast episode to get $100 off your purchase of either a full branding or website package
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Cultural Humility
Find Adriana on social media (Instagram, Clubhouse, Facebook)
Instagram: AdrianaRodriguezTherapy
Facebook: Adriana Rodriguez Therapy
https://www.adrianarodrigueztherapy.com/
Relevant Episodes:
Bridging Cultural and Communication Differences in a Bilingual Psychotherapy Practice
Getting the Supervision You Want
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Therapy with an Audience An interview with Doug Friedman, LCSW, the host of Your Mental Breakdown, on why he chose to record therapy sessions for his podcast. Curt and Katie talk with Doug about the logistics and benefits of publicly providing therapy. We also look at how podcasting can decrease stigma and open up flexibility to learn as a therapist (rather than rigidly holding to a modality or to an expert status that doesn’t allow for mistakes).
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Doug Friedman, LCSW Doug Friedman is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker in private practice in Los Angeles. He has spent nearly 20 years working with adults, adolescents and families with issues ranging from depression and anxiety to substance abuse, bipolar disorder and PTSD. He has supervised programs in community mental health settings and he continues to provide clinical supervision to therapists in his private group practice, Clear Mind Full Heart. Doug is the creator and co-host of the mental health/entertainment podcast, Your Mental Breakdown.
Doug received a Masters in Social Work from The Catholic University of America and a BA in Study of Religion from UCLA. Before becoming a psychotherapist, Doug worked for a music management company that oversaw bands like Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Beastie Boys, and Bonnie Raitt. Doug is also the artist and songwriter behind all the music heard on the podcast, Your Mental Breakdown.
In this episode we talk about: * Doug’s mission of normalizing therapy and decreasing mental health stigma * The importance of learning as a therapist and exploring mistakes or alternatives * The experience of being a therapist on a public-facing podcast * Why Doug doesn’t hold a modality sacred * How therapy serves the client as a focus for treatment * The logistics of setting up the podcast (laws, ethics, etc.) * Navigating the relationship with the client on the podcast (dual relationships, confidentiality) * The benefit of recording sessions and reviewing them later * Exploration of opportunities and different choices that we can make in the room * Cohost rapport and trust, inquiry, love, disagreement, calling out * The comfort level in being recorded for a podcast: shifting from one on one to a public audience * Creating a system to keep the work of making the podcast sustainable * Being vulnerable and authentic as a value * Being an expert does not mean having the right answer in the room, but knowing how to find the answer and seek additional advice * How other clients respond to Doug’s podcast * The possibility of the public persona and “fame”
Our Generous Sponsor Practicery Practicery is a graphic design company for therapists that was founded by Kimberly and Justin Slagle - a husband and wife team who are passionate about authentic, purposeful, custom visual branding and web design that’s made to match you (not your neighbor and everyone else down the block). Their combined experience in design, marketing, and the mental health field are perfectly aligned to help you create a look and feel for your business that will showcase your authentic style, expertise, and make your ideal client not only say, “I’ve found the one!” but feel it from the second they interact with your brand.
Every visual representation of your brand is an opportunity to build a genuine connection with your ideal client. From your logo, to your beautifully and strategically designed website. But if you’re getting lost in the crowd or haven’t quite found your footing yet, you could be missing out on those big ol’ juicy pay days. Or at the very least, helping more people!
Visit Practicery’s website at practicery.com to schedule a free phone consult and learn more about how their awesome team can help kick your marketing up a notch, or ten.
And join Practicery’s Facebook Group Therapists Who Brand for lots of great branding + marketing resources, expert advice, and networking opportunities.
*Mention this podcast episode to get $100 off your purchase of either a full branding or website package
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Your Mental Breakdown podcast
Doug's therapy practice: Clear Mind Full Heart
Esther Perel’s podcast: Where Should We Begin?
Relevant Episodes:
Starting a Therapist Podcast
Grow Your Impact as a Therapist
The Brand Called You
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Episode 200: Mail Bag! Curt and Katie reflect on 200 episodes, answer questions and respond to feedback from listeners. We explore the tension between making a good living and providing affordable mental health care to consumers. We dig into paying prelicensed individuals, antitrust concerns, training centers, ethics codes, app therapy, setting fees, and therapist career trajectories.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Celebrating 200 episodes! * Question about how to make money and help to provide affordable access to clients * Systemic challenges and the phases of change to the system * Individual responsibility and the problems of this individual responsibility to therapists * The way in which we can take action to make our careers more sustainable, while also advocating for change * The debate about unpaid internships, training centers, and free labor (which is against the law) * Online App Therapy – whether it is hurting the field and gaslighting therapists * Sliding scale, setting fees, and why therapists’ rates vary so widely * Why people don’t stay therapists, feel the need to become a thought leader * Reflections on 200 episodes
Our Generous Sponsor Heard Bookkeeping and Tax As a therapist, you’re probably too preoccupied with your caseload to want to think about bookkeeping or tax filing. Heard Bookkeeping and Tax is a platform built specifically for therapists that helps you track and improve your practice’s financial health. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of your practice, Heard will help you to identify areas for growth and streamline best financial practices for your business.
When you sign up with Heard, you’ll work directly with financial specialists to track your income and expenses, file taxes online, and grow your business. You’ll also receive financial insights such as profit and loss statements and personalized monthly reports. You can say goodbye to poring over spreadsheets and guessing your tax deductions or quarterly payments; focus on your clients, and Heard will take care of the rest.
Dr. Jennifer Kashani, a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, says: Heard has simplified and streamlined bookkeeping and best business practices in a digestible and accessible way. Having the foundation of Heard for my business has made myself and, in turn, my patients feel more solid.
Plans begin at $60 per month and can easily be tailored to fit your business’ financial needs. You can schedule your first consultation at www.joinheard.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
CAMFT’s statement on Paying Prelicensees as a Best Practice
Department of Labor Statement on Internship Programs
- Robert Casares Jr. (2020): Embracing the Podcast Era: Trends, Opportunities, & Implications for Counselors, Journal of Creativity in Mental Health, DOI: 10.1080/15401383.2020.1816865
Relevant Episodes:
Making Access More Affordable
A Living Wage for Prelicensees
Antitrust for Therapists
That’s Unethical
Gaslighting Therapists
Online Therapy Apps (that Curt is renaming to App-alling Therapy)
Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Asking for Money (a throw back episode on setting fees)
You Don’t Have to be a Thought Leader
Why Therapists Quit and Part 2
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Why Therapists Quit Part 2 Curt and Katie chat about the response from listeners to our episode on why therapists quit. We look at the differences in responses (those who felt angry and those who felt validated) as well as our reasons for doubling down. We also dig into the differences between pessimism and realism, pairing our realistic take on the current problems with a call to action that aspires to change the systemic problems we’ve started to outline.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Responding to listener feedback on Why Therapists Quit * The critical feedback we received related to the “negative tone” we put forward * The positive feedback from listeners who felt seen * The different stages of individuals’ careers and how they responded * Assessing whether we are doing the profession a disservice by speaking the truth of our experiences and the problems we see in the profession * How the knowledge of the information that this job is hard can impact the relationships with our clients, consultees, supervisees, etc. * “Saving Psychotherapy” by Dr. Ben Caldwell * The individual responsibility that clinicians are taking for systemic issues * The problem when we don’t understand the system before we’re deep into the career * The expectation that therapists must be good all of the time – which is unrealistic * How we’re looking for ways to improve the therapy system, the mental health profession, etc. * The responsibility we feel to help change * How critical it is to frame the problem before you can solve * Why it is important to opt in to a job, warts and all * The problem of idealizing the profession * Our plan for a new series that talks about the state of mental health care * Differentiating between realism and pessimism * The values systems for therapists that can be challenged by the system * The response from therapists who may be more pessimistic than Curt and Katie are at this time * A call to action to reach critical mass in order to make a change * The people who don’t make it into the profession for many different reasons * The shifts in the smaller systems (improving work environments) * Whether our clients listen and what they might think about what we’re talking about * Our responsibility in our role in this podcast, to make the profession better * How we’ll be moving forward in an upcoming series, looking for solutions
Our Generous Sponsor Heard Bookkeeping and Tax As a therapist, you’re probably too preoccupied with your caseload to want to think about bookkeeping or tax filing. Heard Bookkeeping and Tax is a platform built specifically for therapists that helps you track and improve your practice’s financial health. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of your practice, Heard will help you to identify areas for growth and streamline best financial practices for your business.
When you sign up with Heard, you’ll work directly with financial specialists to track your income and expenses, file taxes online, and grow your business. You’ll also receive financial insights such as profit and loss statements and personalized monthly reports. You can say goodbye to poring over spreadsheets and guessing your tax deductions or quarterly payments; focus on your clients, and Heard will take care of the rest.
Dr. Jennifer Kashani, a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, says: Heard has simplified and streamlined bookkeeping and best business practices in a digestible and accessible way. Having the foundation of Heard for my business has made myself and, in turn, my patients feel more solid.
Plans begin at $60 per month and can easily be tailored to fit your business’ financial needs. You can schedule your first consultation at www.joinheard.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Saving Psychotherapy by Dr. Ben Caldwell
From Decisive by Dan Heath, Chip Heath: 40 studies of realistic job previews. Jean M, Phillips (1998), “Effects of Realistic Job Previews on Multiple Organizational Outcomes: a Meta-analysis,” Academy of Management Journal 41: 673-90
Relevant Episodes:
Why Therapists Quit
Toxic Work Environments
The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout System
A Living Wage for Prelicensees
Structuring Self-Care
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Infertility and Pregnancy Loss An interview with Tracy Gilmour-Nimoy, LMFT, on understanding infertility as well as pregnancy and infant loss. Curt and Katie interview Tracy, a certified perinatal mental health professional, on what the medical and mental health professions often miss related to reproductive health and pregnancy. We dig into the basics and common mistakes as well as the harm caused when therapists are uninformed. We explore trauma, grief, and the invisibility of these common struggles faced by some who want to have children.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Tracy Gilmour-Nimoy, LMFT and Certified Perinatal Mental Health Professional Tracy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified Perinatal Mental Health Professional. She has a group practice in San Diego, CA, where she specializes in working with individuals who have experiences of trauma, depression, anxiety, reproductive mental health, perinatal mental health, maternal mental health, paternal mental health, grief, loss, life transitions, and relational challenges, to name a few. In addition to her love of mental health, Tracy is an avid reader and writer. Her articles have appeared on her mental health blog and other public forums, such as Scary Mommy. She writes about varying mental health topics, as well as her personal experiences of infant loss, grief, and trauma. To learn more about Tracy, connect with her on Instagram @TGNtherapy
In this episode we talk about: * What we missed in our episode about navigating pregnancy * How hidden infertility and pregnancy loss is in society, how the conversation is taboo * The lack of trauma-informed care within the medical field * The problems of assumptions around fertility and whether people want children * The way that common questions can be triggering and traumatizing * How dismissive of the grief people are when it deals with infant and pregnancy loss * The rose-tinted lenses that hurt women during the whole process of getting pregnant and having a baby * How hidden it is and how little discussed are all the stages of women’s development * The gaps in therapist training related to infertility and pregnancy/infant loss * The focus on the baby versus the parent * Ideas for advocacy within the educational and medical systems * The discomfort with sitting with these types of experiences and losses * The tendency of people wanting to fix it and move forward without accounting for loss and recognizing when it cannot be fixed * The shadow losses and losses of an absence * Holding space for grief and loss, for how horrible it is * What therapists need to know about infertility * The importance of understanding the medical terminology, the financial burden, the emotional implications of the fertility process * The internal focus on how the body works and what to do for your body * The identity aspects related to motherhood or not becoming a mother * What therapists need to know about pregnancy and infancy loss * The perception of the death of their child * Traditions to honor the child who didn’t come home * The importance of remembering dates for individuals who have infant and pregnancy loss * Acknowledging loss, using language or names that are relevant * Honoring how they view their parental status after a loss * The importance of acknowledging the grief and the ability to manage your loss in our own way (i.e., not responding to people or not going to baby showers) * The trauma of pregnancy loss and how that may show up in future pregnancies * How women are dismissed by medical providers when they have a bad feeling during pregnancy and it often turns into a reality * Ideas to support the non-pregnant partner and the differences in the grief process * A brief discussion on how the pandemic has impacted the reproductive health process
Our Generous Sponsor Heard Bookkeeping and Tax As a therapist, you’re probably too preoccupied with your caseload to want to think about bookkeeping or tax filing. Heard Bookkeeping and Tax is a platform built specifically for therapists that helps you track and improve your practice’s financial health. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of your practice, Heard will help you to identify areas for growth and streamline best financial practices for your business.
When you sign up with Heard, you’ll work directly with financial specialists to track your income and expenses, file taxes online, and grow your business. You’ll also receive financial insights such as profit and loss statements and personalized monthly reports. You can say goodbye to poring over spreadsheets and guessing your tax deductions or quarterly payments; focus on your clients, and Heard will take care of the rest.
Dr. Jennifer Kashani, a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, says: Heard has simplified and streamlined bookkeeping and best business practices in a digestible and accessible way. Having the foundation of Heard for my business has made myself and, in turn, my patients feel more solid.
Plans begin at $60 per month and can easily be tailored to fit your business’ financial needs. You can schedule your first consultation at www.joinheard.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
TGNtherapy.com
Blog post from Tracy: I want my baby
Certified Perinatal Mental Health Professional through Postpartum Support International
Relevant Episodes:
Navigating Pregnancy as a Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Why Therapists Quit Curt and Katie chat about the systemic reasons that therapists leave the profession. We look at the work environment, the infrastructure of community mental health, as well as the frequent ways that therapists set up their own private practices. We also identify changes on a systems level as well as calls to actions for individuals who would like to continue as a therapist.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Challenges in the mental health system leading to therapists quitting the profession * Why therapists don’t stay therapists when they wanted to stay therapists * Obstacles and lack of opportunities * The lack of quality of supervision or inadequate training for other elements of the job * The lack of research on therapist workforce issues * Not a lot of empathy for therapists as we “chose” to do this * Caseload sizes, the weight of carrying the challenges of many people * Niche fatigue and hearing the same story over and over * The challenge of holding the hope for clients and communities * The heaviness and the boredom of hearing so many similar conversations * The full workload including paperwork and other consultations, case management and advocacy * Who is drawn to the work, the desire for deep and meaningful work, and the problems of the bureaucratic system in providing meaningful work * The training doesn’t match the actual job * The status quo and inertia in the work, while at the same time that all the changes that happen in the other pieces of the profession * Productivity standards and billing, differences in philosophy * Systemic problems with under and unpaid services and requirements * What we’re asking from the professional organizations and the challenges that professional organizations may have in advocating for these types of systemic changes * What could actually move forward in legislation * The issues related to antitrust * People are more concerned about our patients than about therapists * Why clinicians in all settings (including community mental health, private practice, etc.) * The sameness of the workload when you’re in private practice * The isolation as a therapist * Increased demands with higher demand, less delineated work/life balance * The appeal of a job where you can just show up * The weight we carry as business owners, including decision-making and responsibility to generate income * The benefit of diversifying your caseload * Calls to action: advocating for quality workplaces, finding peer support, setting boundaries for yourself throughout your professional journey, what we can do if enough of us make these changes * The time is now to address mental health systemic problems – shining a light on how we are well-situated, making sure we are paid, and sharing messages to support the community
Our Generous Sponsor Heard Bookkeeping and Tax As a therapist, you’re probably too preoccupied with your caseload to want to think about bookkeeping or tax filing. Heard Bookkeeping and Tax is a platform built specifically for therapists that helps you track and improve your practice’s financial health. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of your practice, Heard will help you to identify areas for growth and streamline best financial practices for your business.
When you sign up with Heard, you’ll work directly with financial specialists to track your income and expenses, file taxes online, and grow your business. You’ll also receive financial insights such as profit and loss statements and personalized monthly reports. You can say goodbye to poring over spreadsheets and guessing your tax deductions or quarterly payments; focus on your clients, and Heard will take care of the rest.
Dr. Jennifer Kashani, a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, says: Heard has simplified and streamlined bookkeeping and best business practices in a digestible and accessible way. Having the foundation of Heard for my business has made myself and, in turn, my patients feel more solid.
Plans begin at $60 per month and can easily be tailored to fit your business’ financial needs. You can schedule your first consultation at www.joinheard.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
NY Times: No One Has Openings
The Rand Report: How to Transform the U.S. Mental Health System
Relevant Episodes:
Quarantine Self-Care for Therapists
Toxic Work Environments
Antitrust for Therapists
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Mental Health Entrepreneurship An interview with Lawrence E. Shapiro, Ph.D. about lessons learned through serial entrepreneurship. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Shapiro about how to identify whether your idea for a product or service is good, the importance of solving a problem, and what business models are strongest for therapists. He also talks with us about why we shouldn’t fall in love with our products, why we shouldn't expect to make money writing books, and why building apps don’t make sense.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Lawrence E. Shapiro, PhD Lawrence E. Shapiro is an internationally known psychologist, recognized for his innovative and practical approach to helping people with mental health problems. Dr Shapiro has written more than 75 books and developed more than 100 therapeutic board and card games. His work has been published in 28 languages.
Dr. Shapiro has developed a broad understanding of mental health problems in various professional positions as a teacher of emotionally disturbed teens, a school psychologist, a Director at the National Children’s Center in Washington D.C., and in private practice in Washington DC and Philadelphia.
Dr. Shapiro is also considered a pioneer in using technology to address mental health problems. He has developed a number of apps for mobile devices, including an award-winning app to help prevent suicide among military personnel. He is the Founder and President of Between Sessions Resources, a company that develops clinical software for therapists and counselors and publishes therapeutic homework that professionals give to their clients to accelerate their growth.
Dr. Shapiro’s books include:
For Parents: How to Raise a Child with a High EQ: A Parents’ Guide to Emotional Intelligence; The Secret Language of Children; The Baby Emergency Handbook
For Kids and Teens: The ADHD Workbook for Kids; I’m Not Bad, I’m Just Mad, Stopping the Pain: A Workbook for Teens Who Cut and Self-Injure
For Adults: Overcoming Depression, The Panic Disorder Workbook, Taking Care of Your Mental Health During the COVID-19 Pandemic
Dr. Shapiro is a frequent media guest, and has appeared on CNN, NPR, The Today Show, and many other national and local outlets.
In this episode we talk about: * Shapiro’s forays into entrepreneurship and alternate revenue streams * The importance of getting used to making mistakes * The lack of follow through that leave ideas as ideas (and not businesses or products) * The need to actually be solving a problem, not pursuing an interest * Finding something that has value to other people * Writing books and self-publishing * The goal for self-publishing a book (it’s not the profit) * A book as a business card * Strongest business models * The need for on-going work and learning as an entrepreneur * Protecting your work (copywriting, registered copywriting, trademarking) * Ideas are just ideas and may not actually need protecting * The perspective of improving on what others have done, rather than coming up with a unique idea or doing what has “never been done before” * An iterative process to find your product, incremental innovation * Leveraging the success of others * How to learn what to do, following the recipe of what is worked * Selling a business and moving onto the next idea * Different places that people can shine – ideas, implementation, marketing * The benefit of having partners to have different skill sets * Marketing as building your platform and audience * Why Dr. Shapiro advocates for email marketing * The concept of a sales funnel and adding value along the way * Metrics and data for email marketing * Content marketing and giving away free stuff * Lawrence Shapiro’s Goldfish Tank * Why an app doesn’t make sense – the economics don’t work * Affiliate relationships – what to look for, what they could include, how to stand out * Understand them and know how you can help them * Why you shouldn’t fall in love with your product * Following the rules of business
Our Generous Sponsor Heard Bookkeeping and Tax As a therapist, you’re probably too preoccupied with your caseload to want to think about bookkeeping or tax filing. Heard Bookkeeping and Tax is a platform built specifically for therapists that helps you track and improve your practice’s financial health. Regardless of whether you’re a seasoned clinician or are in the first year of your practice, Heard will help you to identify areas for growth and streamline best financial practices for your business.
When you sign up with Heard, you’ll work directly with financial specialists to track your income and expenses, file taxes online, and grow your business. You’ll also receive financial insights such as profit and loss statements and personalized monthly reports. You can say goodbye to poring over spreadsheets and guessing your tax deductions or quarterly payments; focus on your clients, and Heard will take care of the rest.
Dr. Jennifer Kashani, a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles, says: Heard has simplified and streamlined bookkeeping and best business practices in a digestible and accessible way. Having the foundation of Heard for my business has made myself and, in turn, my patients feel more solid.
Plans begin at $60 per month and can easily be tailored to fit your business’ financial needs. You can schedule your first consultation at www.joinheard.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Shapiro’s Contact Information
- Email: DrLawrenceShapiro@gmail.com
- Website: www.BetweenSessionsResources.com
- Phone: 203-246-5267
Dr. Lawrence Shapiro on Amazon
Relevant Episodes:
Marketing with Empathy
Authentic Side Hustles
Not Your Typical Psychotherapist
Creating Opportunities
Clinical Marketing
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Negotiating Sliding Scale
Curt and Katie chat about the pros and cons of sliding your fee for therapy services. We look at the theories around fee-setting, sliding fee scales, and conversations around money. We discuss what actually makes a difference in determining if clients are invested and will benefit from your services. We also dig into the laws, ethics, and practicalities if you choose to offer sliding scale in your practice.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Feedback from our conversation with Tiffany McLain * Clinical theories on how fee impacts the clinical relationship * The different ways that people enter into therapy, different financial situations, etc. * A more nuanced conversation about sliding scale fee * Freud’s views on having direct conversations with clients on fee * How clinical orientation can impact how therapists view fee-setting * The idea that fee must be set at an “uncomfortable enough” that clients invest in therapy * How fee paid impacts attending the last session * Different types of investments that might impact how much people benefit of treatment * Practical ways to assess what fee would be in the sweet spot for sliding scale (e.g., written out scale, financials, etc.) * Do therapists show up differently for clients who pay more or less? * How fees average out among larger caseloads * Incorporating outcome measures and practice-based evidence to assess whether you are showing up differently for clients who pay more or less * Mythology around what we have to do and what is best to do * Laws and ethics, practical considerations * Usual and Customary fees * Advertised fees * Philosophy related to how you set your fees * The impact of insurance on our profession related to sliding scale * Ethical codes on fee setting related to services provided and client ability to pay * Models of subsidy for mental health services * The need for a standard justification * The risks for insurance fraud related to fee-setting and accepting copays * The ability to adjust usual and customary fee as needed as long as it doesn’t violate state law * What we have to do and what the softer, virtue ethics might recommend * The importance of accurate billing and justification * The tension between the equity argument and the practicalities of business * Are you unfairly treating clients who are paying less? * The need for pro bono work, but not sliding scale work * The need for clinician-led discussions and opt-in from the client * Check your insurance contracts, advertise your fees correctly, written basis for a range of fees * Options for sliding scale * Other models for addressing access * How to create a sliding scale practically * Why you need to identify what you need to make on average per session * Moving your sliding scale or pro bono work outside of your practice * Our recommendations for Open Path Psychotherapy Collective and Give an Hour
Doing some math and making sure that you are making enough per session on average: What’s Needed:
| Required Annual Revenue (includes practice expenses, taxes, and required take home pay) | | DIVIDED BY | | (Preferred number of Work Weeks per year) | X | (Number of Scheduled Sessions per week) | X | (Your typical Attendance Rate – usually 80 or 90%) |
What you’re actually making on average per session:
| Actual Revenue per month | | DIVIDED BY | | Number of Actual Sessions per month |
A Message from Therapy Reimagined: Therapy Reimagined 2021 – The Modern Therapist Conference Our Call for Sponsors is out!
We’re looking for right-match sponsors & exhibitors. We are seeking collaborative relationships that support the psychotherapist community. We commit to intensively engaging our audience with our valued sponsors and we love when our sponsors are actively involved in our conference.
Our conference attendees are:
-
ModernTherapists who understand the value of business and technology
- Ready to invest in themselves to launch (or scale) their small businesses
- Building their networks of treatment providers
- Hungry to engage in the resources in the psychotherapy community
- Savvy with social media and have (or are in the process of building) an engaged online following
- Marriage and Family Therapists, Social Workers, Counselors, Psychologists, and other mental health and wellness professionals
Learn more here: https://therapyreimaginedconference.com/become-a-sponsor/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Articles mentioned:
- Pope and others: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1976-10249-001
- Freud, S. (1976). On beginning the treatment. In J. Strachey (Ed. & Trans.), the standard edition of the complete psychological Works of Sigmund Freud. (Vol. 4, pp.123- 144) New York, NY: WW Norton and Company. (Original Work Published 1913).
- Menninger, K. (1958). Theory of Psychoanalytic Technique. Basic Books Inc. New York: New York.
- Sammons, Katherine E., "Differences in Treatment Utilization Between Fee Paying and Non-Fee Paying Clients in a Counseling Training Clinic" (2019). Dissertations. 555. https://digscholarship.unco.edu/dissertations/555
- Good Therapy article on Setting Sliding Scale Fees
- CPH and Associates article: Sliding Fee Scale
- CPH article: Setting Fees
Tiffany’s Fun with Fees Calculator
Alternatives to Sliding Scale within your own practice:
Open Path Collective
Our interview with Open Path
Give an Hour
Relevant Episodes:
Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset
Making Access More Affordable
Who gets to have therapy?
Antitrust for Therapists
In It For The Money?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Invisible and Scrutinized An interview with Dr. Sheila Modir on racial trauma and identity within the Middle Eastern North African (MENA) population. Curt and Katie talk with Sheila about how MENA individuals are impacted by racial profiling, prejudice, and the lack of data on the MENA community. We also explore typical coping strategies as well as how therapists can support MENA clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Sheila Modir Dr. Sheila Modir is a pediatric psychologist at Children’s Hospital of Orange County (CHOC). She obtained a combined doctoral degree in Clinical, Counseling, and School Psychology at the University of California, Santa Barbara and her master’s degree in social welfare at UCLA. Prior to coming to CHOC, Dr. Modir completed her doctoral internship at the UCLA Semel Institute for Neuroscience and Human Behavior where she worked at the UCLA Stress, Trauma, and Resilience Clinic. Her research interests include racial trauma and understanding risk and resilience factors in the context of trauma, and she has presented at conferences and published articles on this topic. Most recently, she has written a children’s book (coming fall 2021) called The Proudest Color, which is a timely and sensitive introduction to race, racism, and racial pride for children.
In this episode we talk about: * MENA (Middle Eastern and North African) clients * The common mistake of assuming that all MENA clients are Muslim * A lack of data on immigration and the demographics of these clients * The lack of clinical research and education on MENA clients * An invisible community that is greatly scrutinized due to profiling * The layers of racial trauma * Bronson Brenner’s ecological model: Sociopolitical discrimination, Institutional discrimination, Relational discrimination due to “cultural ignorance” * The consistent portrayal of MENA individuals as terrorists, the Middle East as war-torn * MENA individuals called terrorists versus white individuals called “lone wolves” who are “mentally ill” * The impact of how the insurrection in January is viewed as “white terrorism” * What influences racism and bias against MENA clients * The typical coping strategies for MENA clients related to racial trauma * Resignation, cowering, “getting used to it” leading to depression and anxiety * Coping strategies, including education and being a cultural representative * The contrast between the Asian American community pushing back against the “model minority” while MENA clients are aspiring to be a model minority * The importance of identification of MENA individuals on the census * How the Muslim Ban has impacted MENA individuals’ relationship with the government * Clients minimizing, denying, not disclosing racial trauma * The thirst for appropriate and accurate information on culture * The benefit of affinity groups * How non-MENA therapists can best support MENA clients * The nuance of asking a MENA client to educate you as a therapist * Collectivist culture and how it shows up in the room, how it can be complicated * The challenge of cultural sensitivity when there is little research * A call to action regarding research and education
A Message from Therapy Reimagined: Therapy Reimagined 2021 – The Modern Therapist Conference Our Call for Sponsors is out!
We’re looking for right-match sponsors & exhibitors. We are seeking collaborative relationships that support the psychotherapist community. We commit to intensively engaging our audience with our valued sponsors and we love when our sponsors are actively involved in our conference.
Our conference attendees are:
-
ModernTherapists who understand the value of business and technology
- Ready to invest in themselves to launch (or scale) their small businesses
- Building their networks of treatment providers
- Hungry to engage in the resources in the psychotherapy community
- Savvy with social media and have (or are in the process of building) an engaged online following
- Marriage and Family Therapists, Social Workers, Counselors, Psychologists, and other mental health and wellness professionals
Learn more here: https://therapyreimaginedconference.com/become-a-sponsor/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
For more information on Dr. Sheila Modir's research:
Modir, S. & Kia-Keating, M. (2018). Exploring the Middle Eastern American college student experience: Discrimination, adjustment, and coping. Journal of College Student Development 59, 563-578.doi:10.1353/csd.2018.0053
Learn more about her at:
Twitter: @drsheilamodir
Instagram: @thelittlewellnessbookshelf
AMENA Psy
Relevant Episodes:
Iran, The News, and Your Clients
White Terrorism and Therapy
Let’s Talk About Race Again
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Understanding Polyamory An interview with Dana McNeil, LMFT, about polyamory and ethical non-monogamy. Curt and Katie talk with Dana about the basics that every therapist should understand about polyamory. We cover some of the vocabulary, the values and perspectives within the polyamory community, as well as the biases many therapists hold and what therapists often get wrong when working with polyamorous clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dana McNeil Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Co-Founder of Confident Couples Therapist Dana McNeil is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and is the founder The Relationship Place, a group practice located in San Diego, California. Dana’s practice specializes in couples’ therapy and utilizes an evidence-based type of couples’ therapy which is known as the Gottman Method. Dana is a certified Gottman Method therapist and Bringing Home Baby instructor. Dana’s practice works with all types of relationship issues from pre-marital counseling, dealing with the aftermath of extramarital affairs, partners working through addiction recovery, military deployed families, parents of special needs children, LGBTQ, and polyamorous clients.
Dana has been featured on many relationship podcasts and in publications such as the Business Insider, Authority Magazine, Eat This-Not That, Parade, Oprah Living, Martha Stewart Living, Ladders, AARP, and is the resident relationship expert on the Cox Communications show “I Do.”
Dana is also the co-founder of Confident Couples Therapist, a consultation and training program. She and her partner Nancy Ryan teach the tips and techniques to build a successful cash pay practice working with couples.
In this episode we talk about: * Polyamory and ethical non-monogamy (ENM) * The faulty assumption that therapists don’t have skills to work with polyamorous clients * The complexity of the non-monogamous relationships * Jealousy versus compersion * Metamour, Polycule, and new relationship energy * The goals and aspirations within the polyamorous community * The underlying reasons for entering into polyamorous relationships * The poly identity and lifestyle * Typical biases therapists hold related to ethical non-monogamy * The difference between boundaries and rules and agreements * The negative tone that can express bias to client * Dana’s use of the Gottman method with ENM clients * The reality of how ENM relationships – emotional and practical logistics * The importance of transparency, clear communication within these relationships * Considerations related to when members of the polycule are parents, who and how they are introduced to children * Sex, fluid bonding, protection and testing * Swingers have sex as sport, open relationships are sexual, poly relationships may be for love and romance and not sex * The stigma and misunderstanding that these individuals may face
A Message from Therapy Reimagined: Therapy Reimagined 2021 – The Modern Therapist Conference Therapy Reimagined 2021 will be held virtually again this year September 23-25th! We are looking for fresh, diverse voices to speak on topics that often aren't covered in grad school or in other continuing education platforms.
Our learning tracks:
- Business and Technology
- Ways of Being (focused on the therapist)
- Ways of Doing (focused on innovative treatment and populations who are often ignored by our profession).
- Misfits, Outliers, Subversives, and Skeptics: Challenging the Status Quo
APPLICATIONS ARE DUE FEBRUARY 15TH
Learn more here: https://therapyreimaginedconference.com/become-a-speaker/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Website: www.confidentcouplestherapist.com
Facebook: @confidentcouplestherapy
Instagram: @confidentccouplestherapist
Website: www.sdrelationshipplace.com
Facebook: @sdrelationshipplace
Instagram: @sdrelationshipplace
The Ethical Slut by Janet W. Hardy
More Than Two by Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert
Relevant Episodes:
Privileged and Biased
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset
An interview with Tiffany McLain about how therapists deserve to make a good living and often do not. Curt and Katie interview Tiffany regarding her perspectives related to how sliding scale fees can perpetuate racist and classist systems, the problem with therapists sacrificing themselves and acting as saviors, and the impact you can make if you amass wealth and seek luxury.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Tiffany McLain, LMFT Tiffany McLain, LMFT is a therapist & consultant whose mantra is, “Full fees are the new black.” Via her program, The Lean In. MAKE BANK. Academy, she helps therapists ethically earn 30 to 50% more per month while seeing fewer clients by showing them how to think about and directly address fees in a clinically appropriate manner.
In this episode we talk about: * Tiffany’s Lean In Make Bank Academy * How current events are impacting therapists making money * The belief system that we are hurting clients by charging them * Why therapists are so susceptible to these messages * How women and minorities are external reinforced to sacrifice ourselves * The stigma of building wealth, living life more fully, seeking luxury * Grappling with raising fees, with people needing help * The internal dialogue that comes in when trying to raise fees * How luxury has been sustained on the backs of others * The misguided attempt to fix the system through self-sacrifice * What the cost is when you self-sacrificing * The problem with Saviorism * How a sliding scale can encourage racism and classism * Negating self-efficacy and fostering dependency, through lowering our fees * Sliding scale = subsidizing our client’s treatment * Tiffany’s experience with a sliding scale therapist * How gratitude for a therapist sliding their fee can lead to clients hiding themselves, not fully showing up or engaging in treatment effectively * The value issue related to people asking for a sliding fee or balking at paying the full fee * How these issues may come in at the beginning of a therapist’s career * Talking about your fee as a clinical intervention * Unconscious dynamics that keep us from acting on what we know re: setting fees and money * Money is a representation of the therapist’s need and desire * Processing emotional reactions to fee changes with clients. For example: “When I raise my fees, it hurts you” without collapsing, lowering the fee, or losing boundaries * The challenge of looking at financial capacity for individuals * The idea that we do not have to take care of individuals who cannot afford our fee in order to create access – and ideas of how we can increase impact once we’ve had the ability to create financial stability and wealth * The benefit to society of women gaining wealth, with the ability to make a bigger impact * The importance of setting your fee appropriately from the beginning
A Message From Therapy Reimagined: Therapy Reimagined 2021 – The Modern Therapist Conference Therapy Reimagined 2021 will be held virtually again this year September 23-25th! We are looking for fresh, diverse voices to speak on topics that often aren't covered in grad school or in other continuing education platforms.
Our learning tracks:
- Business and Technology
- Ways of Being (focused on the therapist)
- Ways of Doing (focused on innovative treatment and populations who are often ignored by our profession).
- Misfits, Outliers, Subversives, and Skeptics: Challenging the Status Quo
APPLICATIONS ARE DUE FEBRUARY 15TH
Learn more here: https://therapyreimaginedconference.com/become-a-speaker/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Lean in Make Bank Academy
http://www.heytiffany.com/workshop
Tiffany’s Fun with Fee Calculators
The Money Sessions Podcast
Relevant Episodes:
Making Bank as a Therapist
Gaslighting Therapists
In It For The Money?
Career Trekking with MTSG
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Navigating Pregnancy as a Therapist An interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT about how to navigate being a therapist while pregnant. Curt and Katie talk with Emily about when and how to disclose to clients, what it means to integrate the pregnancy into the clinical work, the transference and the richness that is available in the clinical work. We also look at practical, business, and clinical logistics for pregnant therapists (with a couple of thoughts for therapists with pregnant partners).
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Emily Sanders, LMFT Emily Sanders is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in the state of California who works in a solo private practice in Orange County seeing individuals and couples. Her areas of focus are anxiety, perfectionism, attachment wounds, and relationship issues. In addition to her 8+ years of clinical practice, Emily has taught Human Development and Advanced Counseling at Life Pacific University, speaks for retreats and workshops, and contributed to leadership health and readiness assessment teams. Of all the roles she plays, she most loves being wife to her husband, Michael, of 13 years and mother to their three children Liv, Ellis, and Arlin.
In this episode we talk about: * The challenges facing therapists when navigating pregnancy * Whether or not to hide pregnancies as long as you can * How to integrate the pregnancy into the clinical work * The fear of bringing your parenting journey into the work * Navigating client infertility while pregnant * The individual differences that could impact disclosure, transference and the clinical work * Considerations for when and how to disclose to each client * Themes of abandonment that can come up * Desires that clients can express related to wanting to be your partner or your baby * The connection clients may feel and what they can witness, the curiosity they can experience * Assessing the level of self-disclosure * Seeking the stories related to considerations related to parenting and the parenting journey * Integrating self into the room as a whole person therapist * Planning for taking time away from your practice * The business considerations (including finances) * Clinical coverage and whether clients return to you after a maternity leave * Idea for notifying clients when the baby is born * The importance of looking put together when you return and challenging the notion that you might be fragile * Transference when you return * Looking at the timing of how long you can be gone (financial consideration) * The fear that people will decide on their leave based on financial concerns * Opportunities afforded when you are going to be out for maternity * Business considerations to make sure you’ve addressed prior to maternity leave * The logistics of breast feeding when you return to work * Considerations when your partner is pregnant * Logistic versus comfort-seeking questions you can get from clients both before and after pregnancy
Our Generous Sponsor: BetweenSessions.com BetweenSessions.com is the #1 website providing tools to accelerate client growth. Between Sessions Resources is the only company offering evidenced-based tools to accelerate client growth. Research tells us that just using therapy assignments can accelerate growth by as much as 30%. The website offers over 2,000 therapy tools available as instant downloads for children, teens, adults, and couples. Our Library provides therapists with tools to help with almost any problem they will come across, but if members ever can’t find what they are looking for, we will create any tool they need, usually in a week or less. The tools at Between Sessions, which include more than 100 practice management forms, are used by professionals in private practice, agencies, schools, rehabilitation centers, hospitals and more. Your membership to Between Sessions also includes our Psychology Forms Filler which allows you modify and edit any of our tools and send them to your clients who can then fill them out online.
Listeners to the Therapy Reimagined can get a special 10% discount to any Between Sessions membership by going to https://www.betweensessionsresources.com/therapyreimagined.html!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Emily’s website: https://www.emilyhsanders.com/
Emily on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/emilypsychotherapy
Relevant Episodes:
Recession-Proofing Your Practice
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
White Terrorism and Therapy Curt and Katie chat about the attack on the US Capitol by radicalized Trump supporters. We talk about the role therapists play in addressing white supremacist terrorism, how to support clients in responding to a domestic terror attack, and what therapy looks like for clients who are impacted by Trump supporters or radical rhetoric. We also talk about the challenge of finding compassion, the need for thoughtful communication, and ideas about how to move forward.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * White Supremacy Terrorism, Domestic Terrorism, and the definition of Terrorism * The evolving threat of White Supremacy * Our responses to the domestic terrorism activity, the insurrection at the Capitol * Processing the event in real time during sessions, with clients with double screen * The lack of definition in the role of therapists during this time * Thoughts related to people connecting violence to mental illness * QAnon, other groups and the need to understand what they are, the signs * The different types of clients coming into our office and how to support them * Dealing with the “white stuff” like white apathy, being further removed from the events * Susceptibility to political reactionism * Trauma around safety, responses to the lack of equity, vulnerability, marginalization * The importance of opening conversations and allowing clients to fully express their experience * Supporting clients who have been pushed away from Trump supporters among family or friends * Self-Identity versus Family-Identity * Responding to divisive messages * The complexity of interacting with someone who has been radicalized * The need for community and connection to shift the culture * What to do when a client who is in the process of being radicalized enters your therapy office * The harm of “what about-ism” * Risk factors for radicalization * Conversations beyond Tarasoff and safety planning * Desire for connection, attachment needs * Simplicity of radicalized rhetoric and the goal to dig deeper into underlying needs and goal * The possibility of therapy as a counter to the division * Societal change, needed messaging, taking care of disenfranchised folks * We are pro-human * The need for compassionate communication * Making things real to people who are disconnected and have the option to opt out, so they choose and can re-engage in the societal change that is needed * A reminder to take care of yourselves as therapists during this time
Our Generous Sponsor: BetweenSessions.com BetweenSessions.com is the #1 website providing tools to accelerate client growth. Between Sessions Resources is the only company offering evidenced-based tools to accelerate client growth. Research tells us that just using therapy assignments can accelerate growth by as much as 30%. The website offers over 2,000 therapy tools available as instant downloads for children, teens, adults, and couples. Our Library provides therapists with tools to help with almost any problem they will come across, but if members ever can’t find what they are looking for, we will create any tool they need, usually in a week or less. The tools at Between Sessions, which include more than 100 practice management forms, are used by professionals in private practice, agencies, schools, rehabilitation centers, hospitals and more. Your membership to Between Sessions also includes our Psychology Forms Filler which allows you modify and edit any of our tools and send them to your clients who can then fill them out online.
Listeners to the Therapy Reimagined can get a special 10% discount to any Between Sessions membership by going to www.BetweenSessions.com/therapyreimagined!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
FBI definition of Terrorism
Article: Terrorists are only Muslim but Never White: At the Intersection of Critical Race Theory and Propaganda
Article: The Guardian – White Supremacy as the biggest threat to the US
Article: Whiteness on the Couch
Article: White Supremacy and Counseling Psychology
Article: Therapy Den – How to Take Care of Yourself in the face of White Supremacist Terror
Relevant Episodes:
Mass Shooters and Mental Illness
Ally is a Verb
Therapy as a Political Act
Treating Political Reactionism and the War on Science
Iran, The News, and Your Clients
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Taking a Shot at Vaccinations Curt and Katie chat about Covid vaccinations and how that will impact your work as a therapist. We look at who can be required to get a vaccine, what accommodations can be made for people who do not want to (or cannot) get vaccinated, and the clinical implications of the vaccine conversation coming into the therapy room.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Laws and ethics related to requiring vaccinations for clients and employees * Vaccine exemptions and who/how they need to be honored * The best practices of encouraging * Accommodations for people who are not vaccinated * The complexities of following the health advice * Different considerations for employees and employers * What the implications are for requiring clients to get vaccines * The challenges of talking with clients about vaccines * Other options related to telehealth, masks, timelines for vaccines * When you may need to refer out * Strategies for working with insurance in the transition * What to do when you’re working at an agency * Implications for mental health access * Protecting yourself and managing your own risk * Clinical Implications of the vaccine and how to talk with your clients * Respecting the different reasons why people may be hesitant or refuse to get vaccinated * The cultural differences relevant to interaction with the medical system * The power differential and clinical ramifications * Helping clients making decisions around vaccination * Scope of practice and medical decision-making * The challenge to physical health being out of our scope of practice * The importance of having adequate knowledge of the science of the vaccines and the health decisions that clients often make * Where ethics come in – forcing our clients to follow “science” is unethical * Navigating the power differential * Additional considerations that we were not able to talk about
Our Generous Sponsor: The CPA for Psychotherapists The CPA for Psychotherapists help ambitious private practice owners save time and money with laser focus tax strategies and preparations to avoid paying excessively in taxes.
As therapists, you are in the business of changing the clinical outcomes of your communities. Together with you, The CPA for Psychotherapists can help you improve or get greater clarity on your practice's financial outcome so you can provide optimal care to your clients. Aligning your dreams and goals with strategic tax solutions is their goal. At the CPA for Psychotherapists, they offer year-round tax-saving strategies and preparation services to empower you to make the right tax decisions. This interactive process involves a careful examination of all tax planning strategies and their expert recommendations for tax liability reduction solutions. They have experience working with therapists in private practice, expertise in accounting and tax, and the technology to partner with businesses all over the U.S.
Request your free 20-minute consultation today at thecpaforpsychotherapists.com/modern to determine how you can maximize your tax savings and get the peace of mind you deserve.
Exclusive offer for our modern therapist listeners: Get 30% off your business and personal tax preparation needs.
Go to thecpaforpsychotherapists.com/modern to learn more and get 30% off your tax preparation needs!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Article: Can Your Employer Require You to Get a Vaccine?
CDC: Information on COVID-19 Vaccinations
Tuskegee Medical Experiments (The Syphilis Study) – CDC
The Infamous Tuskegee Experiments – History
Relevant Episodes:
The Viral Episode
Malpractice is No Joke
Wear a Mask as a Therapy Directive
COVID-19 Legal and Ethical Updates
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
You Don’t Have to Be A Thought Leader Curt and Katie chat about the latest pressures on therapists to become “thought leaders.” We look at how thought leadership is defined, what it typically is trying to solve, and other options therapists can take if they aren’t ready to be in the spotlight, start a side hustle, or leave the profession.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The definitions of thought leader * Why you must earn the title of thought leader * Thought leadership as content marketing * Repackaging content, predicting the future, or sharing a brand-new perspective * The role of luck in thought leadership * The importance of doing “you” whether you choose to use thought leadership or not * The option to be a therapist in private practice without doing thought leadership as your form of content marketing * Assessing values, skills, and energy in your decision whether you focus on thought leadership * Challenging the notion that you have to leave the career if you’re burned out * The ability to have hobbies and not monetizing everything * Other options to address burnout or financial needs or lack of meaning in your work * The myth of passive income and thought leadership as a mechanism to a better life * The idea of fixing your business as an alternative * The focus on the thoughts as the strongest, most aligned type of thought leadership * Force of personality and Cult-like leadership * Take an uncomfortable look at where you’re at to determine what you can do going forward * Identifying a path forward that doesn’t get you stuck (stepping outside of shoulds) * How to assess what is missing or what you’d like to get rid of * The concept of self-leadership
Our Generous Sponsor: The CPA for Psychotherapists The CPA for Psychotherapists help ambitious private practice owners save time and money with laser focus tax strategies and preparations to avoid paying excessively in taxes.
As therapists, you are in the business of changing the clinical outcomes of your communities. Together with you, The CPA for Psychotherapists can help you improve or get greater clarity on your practice's financial outcome so you can provide optimal care to your clients. Aligning your dreams and goals with strategic tax solutions is their goal. At the CPA for Psychotherapists, they offer year-round tax-saving strategies and preparation services to empower you to make the right tax decisions. This interactive process involves a careful examination of all tax planning strategies and their expert recommendations for tax liability reduction solutions. They have experience working with therapists in private practice, expertise in accounting and tax, and the technology to partner with businesses all over the U.S.
Request your free 20-minute consultation today at thecpaforpsychotherapists.com/modern to determine how you can maximize your tax savings and get the peace of mind you deserve.
Exclusive offer for our modern therapist listeners: Get 30% off your business and personal tax preparation needs.
Go to thecpaforpsychotherapists.com/modern to learn more and get 30% off your tax preparation needs!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
You Don’t Have to Be A Thought Leader (blog by Katie)
Relevant Episodes:
The Brand Called You
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Malpractice is No Joke An interview with Rachel Warners of CPH & Associates on the ins and outs of liability insurance. Curt and Katie talk with Rachel about some myths related to therapist liability, the best practices in getting (and keeping yourself) insured. We also talk about the types of claims and the services that are covered when you’re insured. We look at how you can best protect yourself from malpractice claims and what the most common complaints (and consequences) are.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Rachel Warners, CPH & Associates Rachel Warners is the Director of Operations at CPH & Associates, a leading provider of Professional Liability Insurance for mental health provider. Having been with CPH for 10 years, she understands the importance and unique nature of a therapists work and is proud to partner with them in protecting their career.
In this episode we talk about: * Why you need liability insurance * The benefit of keeping liability insurance continuously through your whole career * Why you may need a policy while working as a W-2 with an employer who is covering you * Debunking some myths about your liability * The problem with letting your policy lapse or having a gap in coverage * The benefits of continuously coverage (especially if you’d like to get credentialed with insurance) * The types of services you’re entitled to when you’re covered * The ability consult when you get subpoenaed * Common board complaints and lawsuits, like practicing outside the scope of licensure, negligent supervision, boundary and dual relationship issues, custody conflicts, unprofessional conduct * When you are not covered, even when you have insurance * The consequences of having a board complaint whether the complaint is dismissed or not (and how to navigate reporting this to your insurance carrier, etc) * How often complaints are founded or unfounded * The cost of protecting yourself from complaints * Other types of insurance you may want to consider as a practice owner (general liability - slip and fall, personal property coverage, cyber liability) * Insuring your corporate name * The importance of protecting yourself and using insurance to cover costs of handling your defense or the required steps to repair what is broken * The ways that you can avoid liability, including accessing the resources availability to you * Considerations for Telehealth
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
CPH & Associates: www.cphins.com
CPH phone line: 312-987-9823 | 800-875-1911
Articles on Avoiding Liability
Relevant Episodes:
Toxic Work Environments
Joining Your Association
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Marketing with Empathy An interview with Kat Love, on the hurdles therapists face when marketing their practices. Curt and Katie talk with Kat about how to develop relationships with referral sources on social media, advice on writing website copy, and the great importance of knowing yourself (and processing some of your stuff) when making a marketing plan. We also talk about some data you’ll want to review to adjust your planning and writing prompts to help get you started.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kat Love Therapists helped Kat heal from childhood sexual abuse, so now they specialize in helping therapists with their marketing. From helping you find the words to write to implementing the marketing strategies you need, Kat helps therapists get more clients, more referrals, and start making an impact. Check out Kat’s services that help with copywriting for therapists and marketing and business coaching for therapists.
In this episode we talk about: * The hurdles that therapists have to jump over to market their practice * How mindset blocks keep therapists from creating a marketing plan * The confusion and overwhelm in the DIY marketing space * When you don’t know how to execute your marketing plan * The problem of doing too many social media channels at once * How to network on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Twitter * Building relationships with people on social media * You can even do cold outreach and warm up the relationship within the digital world * The importance of doing things that align with your natural talents and interests * The type of data you should be looking at to adjust your marketing plan * Ideas for how to market based on who you are * Advice on writing website copy * How journaling and blocking out time for self-discovery can move you past your blocks * Understanding what works for you * Vulnerability and self-awareness required for building a business and a website * Your website isn’t about you * What you may need to process before you can get your marketing on point * The key things that need to come through in website copy * Speaking to clients’ pain points so they feel seen * Writing about the benefits of therapy in general as well as specifically with you * Listening to your clients and asking your family and friends to understand how you show up as a helper, listener, and therapist
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
katlove.com
empathycopy.com
Group Practice Owner’s Summit
Relevant Episodes:
Clinical Marketing
The Brand Called You
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Don’t Take Tax Advice from Therapists An interview with Julie Herres of GreenOak Accounting on why you shouldn’t take tax advice from random therapists in a Facebook Group. Curt and Katie talk with Julie about common mistakes therapists make while trying to do their own bookkeeping and accounting, a new way to look at expenses, what is (and is not) tax deductible, what business entity you might consider, and why the picture is extra complex right now, meaning expert advice is especially important.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Julie Herres, GreenOak Accounting Julie Herres is an accountant and the owner of GreenOak Accounting. Her firm provides accounting, bookkeeping & tax services to private practice owners throughout the United States. Their mission is for every practice to be profitable! Julie and her team have worked with hundreds of private practice owners, so they are uniquely positioned to be a trusted advisor to clients. Julie also hosts the Therapy For Your Money Podcast, where she talks about all things money & finance for private practice.
In this episode we talk about: * The common mistake of not saving enough for taxes * Bookkeeping mistakes * How to look at your numbers, what numbers you should know about * Expenses that may be outsized for your need * Problem-solving for when your numbers are out of whack * The importance of planning and having a conversation with an expert * Being a good steward of the money that is coming into your therapy business * What you can do proactively to plan for your business and taxes * What you can do to clean up your books and then plan ahead going forward * The value of basic budgeting and forecasting, even for 2021 * Uncertainty and luck can be navigated * Covid expenses and plans for investing in growth * What you can still do to address 2020 taxes (including quarterly tax payments) * What to spend money on when you have extra money at the end of the year * The possibility of maximizing retirement accounts, etc. * What you can do into 2021 that still impact 2020 taxes * The need for really good advice based on the complexity of income, loans, etc. * Which experts to go to for advice, which to go to implement your plan * The danger of taking tax advice from a FB group and other questionable advice * Personal expenses are not typically tax deductible (therapy, clothes, makeup, etc.) * What you can deduct related to gifts * Marketing expenses and usual and necessary expenses for business. * Different business entities and some of the things to consider when deciding (spoiler alert: get advice because these things are so complex and depend on your full financial picture * Things to consider in becoming a corporation and who to get help from * How to prepare for changes (or potential changes) expected for 2021 * The way in which having an accountant can support you in staying abreast of what you need to know as a business owner
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Julie’s website: GreenOak Accounting
Therapy for Your Money Podcast
Free tax planning checklist: greenoakaccounting.com/tax
Relevant Episodes:
The 4-1-1 on your 401K
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Therapists Struggling with Darkness Curt and Katie chat about how therapists are struggling during the pandemic. We looked at how client material impacts therapists. We also explored unique risk factors and protective factors. We talked about the stigma for therapists to admit that something is not okay as well as the tendency to move that conversation out of the public space (just go to therapy). We have some ideas about how we can better take care of ourselves and each other.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How we are struggling during the pandemic * Sitting with client’s darkness and how that impacts therapists even before the pandemic * The impact client material can have on therapists * The stigma around therapists having mental health concerns * Anxiety contagion, energy drain of working with depression * Impacts on libido, mood, suicidality * Unique risk factors for therapists * Risk factors for suicidality * The heaviness and suicidality that can enter thought processes * The shame and the simplification when therapy is the only suggestion * “We deal with some heavy shit.” * Taking the conversation about therapists struggles out of the social space (“go to therapy”) * The lack of research about therapists as a workforce, the client impact on therapist, or therapists as clients * Therapists as human beings in both private and public ways * The feeling of being stuck and not being able to talk about it when you’re a therapist * How legal and ethical concerns play a part * Having a job, having people around you can be protective factors * Isolation and lack of social support * Boundary issues, vagueness to keep others at bay * How therapists support each other (and the importance of social support) * The danger of feeling trapped, especially if you’re isolated * Practices to incorporate to reinforce resilience * How we consume information and how the people around you are perceiving the news can impact you * Self-assessment of risk factors, identification of protective factors * What actually helps when someone is struggling * The group responsibility as well as our individual responsibilities * How to manage community care without overburdening yourself * The importance of assessing capacity to support and give to our colleagues and friends * Creating reinforcements and structure for regular support
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Signing up for our newsletter
Relevant Episodes:
Quarantine Self-Care for Therapists
Therapist Suicide
Suicidal Therapists
Therapists in Therapy
Toxic Work Environments
The Mental Load of Therapists
Structuring Self-Care
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Noteworthy Documentation An interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT about some basic documentation information as well as updates relevant to the 21st Century Cures Act. Curt and Katie talk with Ben about what to consider when writing your notes including what to include and what should not be included. We look at who can see your progress notes as well as other considerations related to records requests and confidentiality.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT Dr. Benjamin Caldwell, PsyD is a California Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (#42723) and the Education and Director for SimplePractice Learning. He currently serves as adjunct faculty for California State University Northridge in Los Angeles. He has taught at the graduate level for more than 15 years, primarily in Law and Ethics, and has written and trained extensively on ethical applications in mental health care. In addition to serving a three-year term on the AAMFT Ethics Committee, Dr. Caldwell served as the Chair of the Legislative and Advocacy Committee for AAMFT-California for 10 years. He served as Editor for the Users Guide to the 2015 AAMFT Code of Ethics and is the author for several books, including Saving Psychotherapy and Basics of California Law for LMFTS, LPCCs, and LCSWs.
In this episode we talk about: * Documentation as our favorite thing ever * Excitement about Ben breaking the record on number of interviews on this podcast * What needs to go into your documentation * Accurate, adequate, and timely * Standard of care * How much information to put into your notes * Who is the audience for your documentation * Who might request records * The importance documentation in continuity of care * Where to put client quotes * The difference between progress and process or psychotherapy notes * What can be subpoenaed (including psychotherapy notes) * How much information you include based on what is advisable to protect self * The benefit of doing documentation for yourself as well as for treatment efficacy * The 21st Century Cures Act – Open Notes (deadline now extended through April 2021) * Optional certification process that requires clients to have access to all the information in their chart without charging them) * Most mental health providers have no changes required from this change * Most private practice EHRs are not on these systems * Hospitals may have this requirement, but individual practitioners are not responsible for the mechanism to provide documentation to clients * How to make sure you’re ready for clients to see your documentation * The communication is going on for people who are required to comply with this open notes mandate, including how to access information and who to contact with questions * In most states, clients have a fundamental right to request their records * Confidentiality and access to records for family members, especially parents of minor children * Conversations to have at the beginning of treatment in these situations regarding what will be included in the chart (and what will not be put into the chart) * What not to include in your chart (specifically written reports from child abuse reports) * A debate of who owns the record – who can see them is different from who owns them
Our Generous Sponsors: GreenOak Accounting If you love dreaming about growing your practice, but you feel a disconnect between where you are now and where you want to be, check out GreenOak Accounting. You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in working with private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! They can help with all your accounting needs like bookkeeping, budgeting, forecasting, payroll and even assist with implementing Profit First. If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just getting back time for yourself, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a free, no obligation consultation today. You can also check out our podcast, Therapy for Your Money, hosted by GreenOak Accounting owner Julie Herres.
CPH & Associates CPH & Associates is an insurance company that specializes in professional liability insurance for mental health professionals. We currently insure over 100,000 mental health professionals throughout the United States. We can insure you throughout your professional career starting with your student practicum, through your post masters internship, and on to practicing with your professional license.
With up-to-date legal resources and exceptional customer service, CPH protects your career against a grievance from a regulatory board, claim, or lawsuit. Because our business is specialized, we are able to focus on your liability needs in a way that bigger companies are not. We are able to serve a large client base while maintaining a small-office approach. With options to add General Liability, Cyber Liability, and coverage for your LLC or corporation, a policy with CPH is tailored specifically to meet your liability needs. Policy holders are encouraged to take advantage of our Attorney Avoiding Liability Helpline, providing two free hours of attorney consultation per year for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. With our online application and renewal process, real-time online policy change capabilities and knowledgeable customer service, we continue to keep our customers’ needs a priority! Get a quote and apply online to receive proof of coverage within minutes at cphins.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The 21st Century Cures Act
Open Notes Org article related to the Cures Act
Simple Practice Learning
Course: HIPAA in the age of COVID-19
Psychotherapynotes.com
Relevant Episodes:
Episodes with Dr. Ben Caldwell –
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Defining the Therapy Movement
COVID-19 Legal and Ethical Updates
Dr. Maelisa Hall: Make Your Paperwork Meaningful
Nicol Stolar-Peterson: CYA for Court
Barbara Griswold: Busting Insurance Myths
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Grad Programs Moving Online Curt and Katie chat about the quick move to online learning when the pandemic hit. We talk about the challenges with virtual platforms – what has worked and what has not. We look at the decisions related to starting or continuing therapist education at this time. We also talk about the opportunities that have been gained and ideas for students and professors on how to more effectively approach online graduate programs.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Graduate programs for therapists moving online during the pandemic * The education one applied for is vastly different from what you’re getting right now * The rapid shift to online education and lack of deliberate choices to shift how to teach * Synchronous and asynchronous elements of education * The requirement for faculty to learn and utilize technology effectively * A lack of interaction due to polite students keeping their mics off * The spoke and wheel conversations that impact how learning happens * The lack of guidance on how to create truly effective online education * Navigating time on screens * Role plays translating into learning telehealth, rather than in-person therapy * The lack of interaction with the material, more passive learning * Developing clinical efficacy for telehealth * The uncertainty of the efficacy of clinical work in the newer space of telehealth * The impact on discussions social justice, racial and cultural identity, due to the ability to opt out of the conversation in online education * The importance of figuring out how people learn and how it applies to the online space * Should people delay or pause education? * What the impacts on the workforce might be * Opportunities within the online learning space, especially when the technology is well used * Theoretical versus practical base * The need to have more deliberate and direct conversations to create connections that may have happened organically * The adjustments and planning that may improve the situation * Different factors that impact each student’s and each professor’s ability to engage * Looking at expectations, support, and needed infrastructure * What students can do to better access education during this time * Developing personal relationships with professors * Putting together options to increase connection and interaction with peers * Seeking career mentorship and synchronous conversations * Moving from venting and commiserating to advocacy within the system * The ability to make changes, be nimble, and put forward a collective voice
Our Generous Sponsors: CPH & Associates CPH & Associates is an insurance company that specializes in professional liability insurance for mental health professionals. We currently insure over 100,000 mental health professionals throughout the United States. We can insure you throughout your professional career starting with your student practicum, through your post masters internship, and on to practicing with your professional license.
With up-to-date legal resources and exceptional customer service, CPH protects your career against a grievance from a regulatory board, claim, or lawsuit. Because our business is specialized, we are able to focus on your liability needs in a way that bigger companies are not. We are able to serve a large client base while maintaining a small-office approach. With options to add General Liability, Cyber Liability, and coverage for your LLC or corporation, a policy with CPH is tailored specifically to meet your liability needs. Policy holders are encouraged to take advantage of our Attorney Avoiding Liability Helpline, providing two free hours of attorney consultation per year for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. With our online application and renewal process, real-time online policy change capabilities and knowledgeable customer service, we continue to keep our customers’ needs a priority! Get a quote and apply online to receive proof of coverage within minutes at cphins.com
GreenOak Accounting If you love dreaming about growing your practice, but you feel a disconnect between where you are now and where you want to be, check out GreenOak Accounting. You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in working with private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! They can help with all your accounting needs like bookkeeping, budgeting, forecasting, payroll and even assist with implementing Profit First. If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just getting back time for yourself, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a free, no obligation consultation today. You can also check out our podcast, Therapy for Your Money, hosted by GreenOak Accounting owner Julie Herres.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Blog post: Online Therapy is Here to Stay
Relevant Episodes:
Building Hope for the Next Generation of Therapists
Unlearning Very Bad Therapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Career Trekking with MTSG An interview with Marissa Esquibel, LMFT on her journey from community mental health to private practice. Curt and Katie talk with Marissa about how she used the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide podcast to shift her mindset and change her career trajectory. Marissa highlights the benefits of belief, guidance, and community.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Marissa Esquibel, LMFT “Though she be but little, she is fierce.”
– Shakespeare
Marissa Esquibel is not like a regular therapist, she’s a cool therapist. With her practice located near Los Angeles, Marissa is on a one-woman mission to empower young women to stop playing small and to start taking up space. She works exclusively with young adults, 20-something’s, who are checking off all the boxes of “success,” and yet, they feel like failures internally. They often come to Marissa dealing with depression, anxiety, imposter syndrome, or codependency. As an undergraduate, she attended UC Santa Barbara and then received her Masters in Clinical Psychology from California State University, Fullerton. In September of 2018, she became licensed and opened-up shop to her virtual therapy practice in March 2020. When Marissa is not in session with patients, she spends her time reading, hanging out with friends and family, binging on podcasts and audiobooks, attending her own therapy, and making sure to get her 10,000 steps a day. She loves her work, job, and life and looks forward to connecting with you.
Learn more about Marissa at therapywithmarissa.com
In this episode we talk about: * Marissa’s burnout story and how she made the trek from community mental health to private practice * Reflections on the question: what do therapists get wrong (and the self-analysis and feedback informed nature of the question) * The idea of self-sacrifice and hard work being required to be a good therapist * The importance of critical thinking regarding what is effective, what is healthy for me * How Marissa made the decision to move to a group practice and then her own private practice * Marissa’s experience at Therapy Reimagined 2019 and her follow up with speakers * The need for belief, guidance, and community * Marissa talks about the episodes that helped her to move forward * How Marissa implemented a new plan for her career * “I choose this agony, this heart ache, this effort” – Marissa Esquibel, LMFT * Marissa’s choice to be vulnerable at this time and to keep on going * The determination and belief that has kept Marissa moving forward on her vision and mission * The need to hear from (and connecting with) people at each stage of career development
Our Generous Sponsors: GreenOak Accounting If you love dreaming about growing your practice, but you feel a disconnect between where you are now and where you want to be, check out GreenOak Accounting. You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in working with private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! They can help with all your accounting needs like bookkeeping, budgeting, forecasting, payroll and even assist with implementing Profit First. If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just getting back time for yourself, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a free, no obligation consultation today. You can also check out our podcast, Therapy for Your Money, hosted by GreenOak Accounting owner Julie Herres.
CPH & Associates CPH & Associates is an insurance company that specializes in professional liability insurance for mental health professionals. We currently insure over 100,000 mental health professionals throughout the United States. We can insure you throughout your professional career starting with your student practicum, through your post masters internship, and on to practicing with your professional license.
With up-to-date legal resources and exceptional customer service, CPH protects your career against a grievance from a regulatory board, claim, or lawsuit. Because our business is specialized, we are able to focus on your liability needs in a way that bigger companies are not. We are able to serve a large client base while maintaining a small-office approach. With options to add General Liability, Cyber Liability, and coverage for your LLC or corporation, a policy with CPH is tailored specifically to meet your liability needs. Policy holders are encouraged to take advantage of our Attorney Avoiding Liability Helpline, providing two free hours of attorney consultation per year for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. With our online application and renewal process, real-time online policy change capabilities and knowledgeable customer service, we continue to keep our customers’ needs a priority! Get a quote and apply online to receive proof of coverage within minutes at cphins.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
therapywithmarissa.com
Marissa’s social media:
https://www.instagram.com/therapywithmarissa/
https://www.tiktok.com/@therapywithmarissa
Tiffany McLain – Lean in Make Bank
Relevant Episodes:
Toxic Work Environments
Joining Your Association
Making Bank as a Therapist
Getting a J-O-B
Interview Strategies for Therapists
The Burnout System
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Therapist Safety
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Quarantine Self-Care for Therapists Curt and Katie chat about the challenges for therapists during the pandemic. We look at what is unique to therapists’ experiences, causes of burnout, and ways in which therapists can work to protect their mental health and wellness during this time.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists can take care of themselves during this time * The risks for burnout during COVID – study in the Asian Journal of Psychiatry * Taking on clients’ emotions, reacting together in real time * Compassion fatigue and vicarious trauma * The strain of “in this together” * Lack of the usual go-to self-care practices * Lack of in-person community and connection * Difficulty in getting feedback related to how we’re being received * Not knowing if we’re providing effective therapy * The concept of stasis, and just waiting for things to go back to normal * Longer term therapy due to lack of progress or on-going stressors * The lack of distraction from work or other responsibilities * The danger of filling time with work * The struggle or concern related to raising fees during a pandemic * How work may have become more of a grind * Lack of creativity or inspiration * The importance of taking a self-assessment * Realistic expectations * Priorities and values * All the roles we are playing right now * What resources do we have available to us? * Creating separation between work and personal space (through physical separation, ritual, structure) * How to identify opportunities with what is happening now * Identifying new challenges and risks, how to mitigate risks * Creating a sustainable situation even if it is just for now * Managing your schedule * Connecting with your community, so you don’t feel so isolated * The importance of breaks
Our Generous Sponsors: CPH & Associates CPH & Associates is an insurance company that specializes in professional liability insurance for mental health professionals. We currently insure over 100,000 mental health professionals throughout the United States. We can insure you throughout your professional career starting with your student practicum, through your post masters internship, and on to practicing with your professional license.
With up-to-date legal resources and exceptional customer service, CPH protects your career against a grievance from a regulatory board, claim, or lawsuit. Because our business is specialized, we are able to focus on your liability needs in a way that bigger companies are not. We are able to serve a large client base while maintaining a small-office approach. With options to add General Liability, Cyber Liability, and coverage for your LLC or corporation, a policy with CPH is tailored specifically to meet your liability needs. Policy holders are encouraged to take advantage of our Attorney Avoiding Liability Helpline, providing two free hours of attorney consultation per year for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. With our online application and renewal process, real-time online policy change capabilities and knowledgeable customer service, we continue to keep our customers’ needs a priority! Get a quote and apply online to receive proof of coverage within minutes at cphins.com
GreenOak Accounting If you love dreaming about growing your practice, but you feel a disconnect between where you are now and where you want to be, check out GreenOak Accounting. You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in working with private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! They can help with all your accounting needs like bookkeeping, budgeting, forecasting, payroll and even assist with implementing Profit First. If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just getting back time for yourself, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a free, no obligation consultation today. You can also check out our podcast, Therapy for Your Money, hosted by GreenOak Accounting owner Julie Herres.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Asian Journal of Psychiatry article: Burnout: A risk factor amongst mental health professionals during COVID-19
Brighter Vision Article by Katie: Clinician Self-Care in the COVID Era
Hey Tiffany: Money Sessions Podcast - Raising Fees During a Pandemic
Meme: I can’t remember, do I work from home or live at work?
Blog: Making Decisions Now
Modern Therapists Happy Hour for November
Relevant Episodes:
Structuring Self-Care
Shared Traumatic Experiences
Burnout or Depression
Compassion Fatigue
Managing Vicarious Trauma
Recession-Proofing Your Practice
It’s About Time
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
All Things Group Therapy
An interview with Katie K. May, of Become a Group Guru, about creating effective therapy groups. Curt and Katie talk with Katie May about the clinical elements of group creation as well as the business elements that support effective groups. We look at screening, developing the group container, and curriculum considerations.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Katie K. May, LPC, The Group Guru Katie K. May is a licensed therapist and online course creator. She helps therapists market and fill groups and online group programs so that they can scale their impact and increase their income, without adding more hours in the office. To learn more and gain access to free trainings and resources to generate new clients like magic, visit www.becomeagroupguru.com
In this episode we talk about: * Building and running therapy groups * Why therapists wait too long to build their therapy groups * The challenge of knowing when to actually start a group * Language to use in marketing a group you’ve not started * The different types of groups you can provide * The importance of aligning your client and your curriculum * How to create your own curriculum * The group container that is built * The anxiety that many therapists face when looking to develop a group * How group therapy can align with treatment goals * How to talk with your individual therapy clients to move into group * Overcoming imposter syndrome when moving into providing group therapy * Innovative ways to start to develop group norms, goals, and cohesion * The skills we have from other elements of being a therapist that we can use within group * Different activity ideas that support group members talking to each other * Screening criteria for inclusion and exclusion * How to navigate clients who may not be appropriate for group, or may show up differently in the group versus how they show up for initial screening * Navigating to online group therapy during the pandemic * Consciously talking about how to be together online * Looking at the logistics of telehealth groups (i.e., platforms that work for groups) * How to start a group – clarity on who the group is for, what group members are experiencing, and what outcomes are you offering * Providing group to your individual clients * How to assess interest for group * Different ways to learn about doing group and the power of learning by doing
Our Generous Sponsors: GreenOak Accounting If you love dreaming about growing your practice, but you feel a disconnect between where you are now and where you want to be, check out GreenOak Accounting. You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in working with private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! They can help with all your accounting needs like bookkeeping, budgeting, forecasting, payroll and even assist with implementing Profit First. If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just getting back time for yourself, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a free, no obligation consultation today. You can also check out our podcast, Therapy for Your Money, hosted by GreenOak Accounting owner Julie Herres.
CPH & Associates CPH & Associates is an insurance company that specializes in professional liability insurance for mental health professionals. We currently insure over 100,000 mental health professionals throughout the United States. We can insure you throughout your professional career starting with your student practicum, through your post masters internship, and on to practicing with your professional license.
With up-to-date legal resources and exceptional customer service, CPH protects your career against a grievance from a regulatory board, claim, or lawsuit. Because our business is specialized, we are able to focus on your liability needs in a way that bigger companies are not. We are able to serve a large client base while maintaining a small-office approach. With options to add General Liability, Cyber Liability, and coverage for your LLC or corporation, a policy with CPH is tailored specifically to meet your liability needs. Policy holders are encouraged to take advantage of our Attorney Avoiding Liability Helpline, providing two free hours of attorney consultation per year for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. With our online application and renewal process, real-time online policy change capabilities and knowledgeable customer service, we continue to keep our customers’ needs a priority! Get a quote and apply online to receive proof of coverage within minutes at cphins.com
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Katie K May’s Website: Become A Group Guru
The Fill Your Group FAST Workshop
Irwin Yalom – The Theory and Practice of Group Therapy
Zoom Healthcare
Google Meet through G-Suite (make sure to get a BAA)
Relevant Episodes:
Who Gets to Have Therapy
Therapy of Tomorrow
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
All Things Group Therapy
An interview with Katie K. May, of Become a Group Guru, about creating effective therapy groups. Curt and Katie talk with Katie May about the clinical elements of group creation as well as the business elements that support effective groups. We look at screening, developing the group container, and curriculum considerations.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Katie K. May, LPC, The Group Guru Katie K. May is a licensed therapist and online course creator. She helps therapists market and fill groups and online group programs so that they can scale their impact and increase their income, without adding more hours in the office. To learn more and gain access to free trainings and resources to generate new clients like magic, visit www.becomeagroupguru.com
In this episode we talk about: * Building and running therapy groups * Why therapists wait too long to build their therapy groups * The challenge of knowing when to actually start a group * Language to use in marketing a group you’ve not started * The different types of groups you can provide * The importance of aligning your client and your curriculum * How to create your own curriculum * The group container that is built * The anxiety that many therapists face when looking to develop a group * How group therapy can align with treatment goals * How to talk with your individual therapy clients to move into group * Overcoming imposter syndrome when moving into providing group therapy * Innovative ways to start to develop group norms, goals, and cohesion * The skills we have from other elements of being a therapist that we can use within group * Different activity ideas that support group members talking to each other * Screening criteria for inclusion and exclusion * How to navigate clients who may not be appropriate for group, or may show up differently in the group versus how they show up for initial screening * Navigating to online group therapy during the pandemic * Consciously talking about how to be together online * Looking at the logistics of telehealth groups (i.e., platforms that work for groups) * How to start a group – clarity on who the group is for, what group members are experiencing, and what outcomes are you offering * Providing group to your individual clients * How to assess interest for group * Different ways to learn about doing group and the power of learning by doing
Our Generous Sponsors: GreenOak Accounting If you love dreaming about growing your practice, but you feel a disconnect between where you are now and where you want to be, check out GreenOak Accounting. You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in working with private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! They can help with all your accounting needs like bookkeeping, budgeting, forecasting, payroll and even assist with implementing Profit First. If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just getting back time for yourself, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a free, no obligation consultation today. You can also check out our podcast, Therapy for Your Money, hosted by GreenOak Accounting owner Julie Herres.
CPH & Associates CPH & Associates is an insurance company that specializes in professional liability insurance for mental health professionals. We currently insure over 100,000 mental health professionals throughout the United States. We can insure you throughout your professional career starting with your student practicum, through your post masters internship, and on to practicing with your professional license.
With up-to-date legal resources and exceptional customer service, CPH protects your career against a grievance from a regulatory board, claim, or lawsuit. Because our business is specialized, we are able to focus on your liability needs in a way that bigger companies are not. We are able to serve a large client base while maintaining a small-office approach. With options to add General Liability, Cyber Liability, and coverage for your LLC or corporation, a policy with CPH is tailored specifically to meet your liability needs. Policy holders are encouraged to take advantage of our Attorney Avoiding Liability Helpline, providing two free hours of attorney consultation per year for situations with a client that could result in a claim or lawsuit. With our online application and renewal process, real-time online policy change capabilities and knowledgeable customer service, we continue to keep our customers’ needs a priority! Get a quote and apply online to receive proof of coverage within minutes at cphins.com
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Katie K May’s Website: Become A Group Guru
The Fill Your Group FAST Workshop
Irwin Yalom – The Theory and Practice of Group Therapy
Zoom Healthcare
Google Meet through G-Suite (make sure to get a BAA)
Relevant Episodes:
Who Gets to Have Therapy
Therapy of Tomorrow
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Online Therapy Apps Curt and Katie chat about online platforms that hire clinicians to provide therapy through their apps. We look at how companies like Talkspace and BetterHelp operate related to their workforce, customer data use, and effective client care. We look at the potential for increased mental health access. We also talk about the risks as well as ethical and legal concerns that clinicians may face if they choose to provide services through these apps.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The different telehealth platforms that hire therapists * The boundary and privacy issues identified at Talkspace from a NY Times article * The use of customer data * Clinical efficacy * Risk and liability issues related to incorporating Artificial Intelligence into treatment * How the platforms work on the clinician side, how clinician gets paid * The packages that clients get on word limits, etc. where they may have to renew early to continue treatment * The potential clinical issues with how therapists get paid in these apps * What is incentivized for therapists on these platforms * The boon to mental health access and treatment flexibility from these apps, including text, phone, and video (synchronous and asynchronous communication) * The caution about these apps growing beyond their capacity to serve clients * The types of clients who are good candidates for these platforms * The concern about clients being anonymous to their therapists * Managing escalating risk without sufficient information * “Counselor” versus “Counseling” services, which provides some cover related to requirements for therapy services and for employee concerns * The potential for practicing across state lines * The Talkspace memo about practicing across state lines and the app paying for legal fees * The legal and ethical risks for practicing across state lines, no matter the help from Talkspace * Rating manipulation – false reviews
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Talk Space NY Times Article
Reddit Thread: Therapy Platforms
Reddit Thread: Better Help, Talk Space, Lyra
Psychotherapy Notes: Artificial intelligence isn’t ready to do therapy (yet) [Updated]
YouTube Video on BetterHelp from The Situational Therapist
Talkspace Memo: Practicing Across State Lines
Relevant Episodes:
Toxic Work Environments
Making Access More Affordable
Who Gets to Have Therapy?
Therapy of Tomorrow
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2021
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Biden and Trump on Mental Health Curt and Katie chat about policies, promises, and actions taken by President Donald Trump and Vice President Joe Biden related to mental health. We look at mental health parity, the Affordable Care Act, Medicaid, prisons, funding priorities, as well as the importance of voting.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The promises and the actions taken by President Trump and Vice President Biden on mental health * Mental Health Parity and the Affordable Care Act * Medicaid Funding and Social Services * Prison and Jail Systems * Mental Health workforce * The difference between budget allotments and how much money actually gets to the programs * The opioid epidemic * Suicide prevention and veterans * How the candidates talk about mental health and drug abuse * Trumps attack on Hunter Biden and desire to reopen mental institutions * Control and punishment versus prevention and support * Biden normalizing mental health care * The importance of voting
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Lisa Marie, the Sassy Wealth Coach Lisa Marie, the Sassy Wealth Coach is your money manager in your back pocket. Together we tackle the chaos in your numbers and create a money management system that works for YOUR business. Lisa wants you to feel empowered by your numbers so you can grow your business and feel in control! Join Lisa for a Sassy Money Strategy Session where you will spend 90-minutes focused on your business and your numbers. As a special offer for our listeners, Lisa would love for you to have $50 off the strategy session. Use the code THERAPYREIMAGINED when you schedule your call. Visit www.thesassywealthcoach.com to learn more and sign up today!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Kaiser Family Foundation Overview Article – Review of Candidate Platforms
Joe Biden – New Frontier for Mental Health
How Trump’s Budget will Affect People with Mental Health Conditions
4 Takeaways from Trumps Plan to Rescind CHIP funding
$2B in Federal Grants to Fight the Opioid Epidemic
PolitiFact: Trumps Mixed Record on Mental Health
Psychotherapy Notes: Artificial Intelligence Therapy
Trump and Biden have very different ideas for addressing mental health
Healthline: Where Biden and Trump Stand on 11 Key Healthcare Issues
Mental Health and Substance Use State Fact Sheets
KFF: Election 2020 Where Trump and Biden Stand on Mental Health and Substance Use Issues
Mental Health for US Candidate Statements
Trump Attacks Hunter Biden
Relevant Episodes: Treating Political Reactionism and the War on Science
Therapy as a Political Act
Let’s Get Political
Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understanding, and Social Justice
Preventing Client Suicide
Donald Trump in Therapy
Mass Shooters and Mental Illness
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Treating Political Reactionism and the War on Science An interview with Dr. Tereza Capelos on why people become politically reactionary, as well as how this orientation also leads to an anti-science and anti-progress stance. Curt and Katie talk with Tereza about the research behind political reactionism, looking at the characteristics of someone who is primed to be politically reactive. We also talk about how therapists can help clients address this harmful dynamic.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Tereza Capelos, Director of the Institute for Conflict Cooperation and Security at the University of Birmingham, and Senior Lecturer in Political Psychology Dr Tereza Capelos is Senior Lecturer in Political Psychology, Director at the Institute for Conflict, Cooperation and Security (ICCS) at the University of Birmingham (UoB), President Elect of the International Society of Political Psychology, and co-chair of the Political Psychology Standing Group of the European Consortium of Political Research. Tereza’s research examines the psychological determinants of political preferences with particular focus on political reactionism, resentful affect and political radicalization during crises and tensions. She is currently co-editing a special issue titled “Reactionary Politics and Resentful Affect in Populist Times”. She has a PhD from Stony Brook University (USA) and worked at the University of Leiden and the University of Surrey. She serves on the editorial board of five international journals, and co-edits the Palgrave Series in Political Psychology. Tereza founded and directed the Summer Academy training program of the International Society of Political Psychology (ISPP, 2011-2016) and currently directs two graduate programs (MSc Political Psychology of IR, and MSc Global Cooperation and Security) at UoB.
In this episode we talk about: * Intersection between psychology and politics * Research on voters who are politically reactive * Political Reactionism – how it is created and what it looks like * The role of shame, fear, resentment, and anger in voting * Anti-preference – to want to move backward, rather than forward * Uncertainty, feelings of resentment, perception of injustice * Populism as a mechanism to devalue what you cannot have, find who is at fault, how to turn things back to a better time * The lure of the idealized or fictional past * Reactionism is not related to a specific ideology – can happen on the left or right * Feelings and beliefs are more likely to drive decisions than ideology * The way that a reactionary orientation can lead to problematic behaviors * The problem with being anti-progress, especially related to solving the problems we are facing * The difficulty reactionaries with engaging with science * Seeking to prove, with confirmation bias – rather than to testing hypotheses * The anti-expert sentiment that is based in this problem with science and with uncertainty * The insight required to identify when we become reactionary * How people label the emotions related to reactionism (and the problem with not knowing how to identify and label our emotions) * What therapists can do to help vent emotions related to the resentment that leads to a reactionary orientation * Helping people to see neutral and positive uncertainty – rather than only negative uncertainty * Bringing people into the scientific method, disappointing them that they will not be “proving” or “confirming,” but rather “testing”
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Tereza Capelos, PhD on Google Scholar
University of Birmingham – Department of Political Science
Institute for Conflict Cooperation and Security at the University of Birmingham
Conservatism, Radicalism, and Scientific Method: An Essay on Social Attitudes by Albert Benedict Wolfe
Relevant Episodes:
Therapy as a Political Act
Donald Trump in Therapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Therapy for Intercountry Transracial Adoptees An interview with Moses Farrow, LMFT on adoption, mental health and the experiences as an adoptee doing adoption therapy. Curt and Katie explore with Moses key aspects of being an intercountry transracial adoptee, implications for therapy, the importance of race and culture and addressing racism. We also discuss the importance of being an adoptee as an adoption therapist and the biggest issues facing adoptees including suicide and what is being done to help.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Moses Farrow, LMFT Moses Farrow, LMFT is a Korean adoptee adoption-focused therapist in private practice. In his capacities as an advocate, program coordinator, and direct service provider, Moses has supported adoption reform, child abuse prevention, anti-racism, and the destigmatization of mental health. Currently, one of his primary interests is to educate and promote suicide prevention among adoptees. As the lead for the mental health team at the Gide Foundation, he is developing projects that bring mental health to the forefront within the intercountry transracial adoptee community. Research has shown that the rate of suicide attempts is 4 times higher among adoptees than people who are not adopted. In recent years, Moses has written about his personal experience including the loss of three adopted siblings who died by suicide. In previous years, he has worked in community-based programs, hospital settings and outpatient practices. He has advocated for adoptees to have access to their original birth certificates and presented nationally on the need for post adoption services. Moses believes in empowering people to speak their truth in order to be seen and heard. It’s about saving lives.
In this episode we talk about: * Lack of knowledge around adoptees’ mental health and suicide rate * The process of coming out of the adoptee fog * Adoption as an industry rather than a way to create families * Different types of adoption * The narrative that adoptive parents get, regardless of the demographics of the parents or the adoptee – “Forever Families” * Internal conflict related to how one is raised and how one looks (i.e., native culture) * Looking at our own biases and blind spots related to intercountry transracial adoptees * The importance of educating ourselves about the adoptee experience * Each adoption experience is unique – there is a range of adjustment, mental health concerns, connection with adoptive family * Looking at the identity and how does one define oneself when they don’t fit here or in the country where one was born. * Identity formation when one is an intercountry, transracial adoptee * Internalized racism, lack of connection to native country, lack of acknowledgment of native culture * Places to get support with other adoptees facing similar struggles * Suggestions for working with parents of adoptees * The history of the adoption industry and why it is problematic * Ideas for advocacy related to adoption * The recommendation for adoptive parents to do their own therapeutic work * #InvisibleElephant * The complexity of racism as an intercountry transracial adoptee * The importance of solidarity with BLM
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Lisa Marie, the Sassy Wealth Coach Lisa Marie, the Sassy Wealth Coach is your money manager in your back pocket. Together we tackle the chaos in your numbers and create a money management system that works for YOUR business. Lisa wants you to feel empowered by your numbers so you can grow your business and feel in control! Join Lisa for a Sassy Money Strategy Session where you will spend 90-minutes focused on your business and your numbers. As a special offer for our listeners, Lisa would love for you to have $50 off the strategy session. Use the code THERAPYREIMAGINED when you schedule your call. Visit www.thesassywealthcoach.com to learn more and sign up today!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
MosesFarrow.com
Email: moses@mosesfarrow.com
Gide Foundation – please note that in the time between recording the episode and when it was aired, Moses Farrow is no longer affiliated with the Gide Foundation.
Book: The Primal Wound
Book: The Body Keeps the Score
Hollee McGinnis, PhD
Amanda Baden, PhD
I am adopted – Jessenia Arias
Glenn Morey – Side by Side Project
Podcast: Behind the Bastards – The Woman Who Invented Adoption (By Stealing Thousands of Babies)
Relevant Episodes:
Let’s Talk About Race
Let’s Talk About Race Again
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Niche Burnout An interview with Laura Long of YourBadAssTherapyPractice.com about creating a niche and identifying your ideal client. Curt and Katie talk with Laura about common myths as well as what happens when you burnout on your niche and how your niche can evolve. Laura also offers practical insight into what you can do to market your new niche.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Laura Long, LMFT/S Laura Long, LMFT/S, is a business coach and the lead badass at YourBadAssTherapyPractice.com, where she helps ambitious, driven, Type-A therapists push through their fears and unleash their inner badass.
Laura offers free practice-building tools (and hilariously obscene emails) through her mailing list, and her flagship e-course has successfully graduated over 300 therapists. She also runs small mastermind groups as well as a private online community reserved for her students.
Laura is best known for her off-the-cuff coaching style that includes colorful language, a witty sense of humor, and an uncanny ability to keep it real. Her unique approach to marketing and customer service challenges the status quo and helps therapists to become better business owners. She shows therapists how to grow and scale their practices without losing their minds - because building your private practice should be fun!
You can read Laura’s blog at www.YourBadAssTherapyPractice.com and follow her antics at www.Facebook.com/YourBadAssTherapyPractice.
In this episode we talk about: * The mistakes therapists make in niche – myths and fears around narrowing down a niche * The fear of excluding people when you narrow your niche * The difference between a niche and an ideal client * Ideal client is about the way a person shows up on the planet, who they are inside * Niche – is a focus on the external, like presenting problems * The reasons why you should exclude people * Scarcity fears – that there are not enough clients or that there are too many therapists * Impostor Myth – the deeply held belief that we don’t know what we’re doing * Being a generalist out of fear when you’d rather be a specialist * Confinement Myth – I can only serve these type of folks for the rest of my career * How niches can evolve * Niche burnout – signs you’re burning out on your niche * The importance of self-awareness and self-assessment * What forgetfulness has to do with empathy * The difference between niche burnout and career burnout * How to change your niche, especially when you have the same ideal client * The shifts to make and the story to tell to make sense to your referral sources and ideal clients
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
YourBadassTherapyPractice.com
Psychology Today Free E-course
Facebook: Your Badass Therapy Practice
2 Mini Courses – usually $197, 50% off – use coupon code covidstillsucks
BOSS Course – onboarding clients through SimplePractice
Bad Ass Copy Queen
Relevant Episodes:
Making Bank as a Therapist
Branding for Your Ideal Client
Clinical Marketing
Bad Marketing Decisions
Are You Sure You’re A Specialist?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Showing Up for Your Clients Curt and Katie chat about the importance of therapists in the therapeutic process. We look at how the medical model, upon which the continuing education and ethical guidelines are built, is flawed leading to solely client-facing training and rules. We talk about the importance of optimizing your practices as well as the negative clinical outcomes when you aren’t taking care of yourself.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The case for self-care as continuing education * The problem with looking at consumer protection bodies rather than the research * The goals of helping people and the problem with sacrificing ourselves in those efforts * How we protect consumers by taking care of ourselves * The importance of being strong clinicians, optimizing our performance * The problem with the medical model and framing ourselves as inconsequential to therapeutic outcomes * When we aim models or regulations around the minimally acceptable competence or performance * The benefit of seeing therapy as art versus as a science * How non-specific effects (therapist effects, client effects and effects of the therapeutic relationship) are more important than the specific treatment modality or adherence * Common factors and the Contextual Model * The requirement for a Bond for successful treatment * Pathways to change according to the Contextual Model: Real Relationship, Expectations, Specific Ingredients * How we practice at being better humans * Why we need to have more in our lives than being therapists * Showing up in resourced ways * Elements of burnout as specific predictors for clients having worse outcomes, dropping out, or not engaging actively in treatment * The importance of optimal performance in creating a therapeutic alliance * How we aren’t trained on optimal performance, focus, setting up our environment * The need to refocus our graduate programs to support the education that is needed to be a good therapist * How self-awareness can impact clinical work * The lack of humanity in the medical model and research based on it * Who we are makes a difference * The need to understand how to take care of ourselves and structure our practice
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Private Practice Grief What if you could give them a true, meaningful experience… and never feel nervous or overwhelmed in the face of grief again? What if you had an expansive toolbox of resources and ways to help your clients navigate thru their pain? What if you had a solid framework to guide you? Private Practice Grief Trainings help you as clinicians and therapists to confidently address the devastating effects of grief so your clients can find hope and joy again. Debi Jenkins Frankle is the force behind Private Practice Grief Trainings and she is passionate about helping YOU transform yourself as a clinician. Grief comes in our offices every day. And once you recognize it and know how to handle it, you'll be able to expand your practice so we can heal the world!! Advanced Grief Therapy Training for only $395
Want to feel more confident to address grief with your clients? Want to find out how to help them with feelings of guilt and remorse? You need more training, strategies and resources in specific areas of grief? Join Private Practice Grief Trainings for a 6-week comprehensive advanced online training which includes 20 CEU’s for LMFTs, LCSWs, and LPCC’s in California! $300 off the regular price of $695 with your attendee code for Therapy Reimagined 2020.
Check out her other courses and consultation available at PrivatePracticeGrief.com
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Bruce Wampold & Zac Imel: The Great Psychotherapy Debate (2015 book)
Dr. Ben Caldwell: Saving Psychotherapy
Articles referenced:
Bedi, R.P. & Duff, C.T. (2014): Client as Expert: A Delphi poll of clients’ subjective experience of therapeutic alliance formation variables, Counselling Psychology Quarterly, 27:1, 1-18.
Heinonen, E. & Nissen-Lie, H. (2019). The professional and personal characteristics of effective psychotherapists: a systematic review. Psychotherapy Research, 30, 417-432.
Landrum B, Knight DK, Flynn PM. The impact of organizational stress and burnout on client engagement. J Subst Abuse Treat. 2012; 42:222-30.
Noble, A. & Rizq, R. (2019). “It’s led me astray”: How Cognitive Behavioural Therapists experience personal therapy in clinical practice. Couns. Psychother. Res., 00:1-10.
Wampold, B.E. (2015). How important are the common factors in psychotherapy? An update. (World Psychiatry. 14:270–277.
Wampold, B.E. & Imel, Z.E. (2015). The Great Psychotherapy Debate: The Evidence for What Makes Psychotherapy Work (Counseling and Psychotherapy). 2nd Edition. Routledge.
Zimmerman, D., Rubel, J., Page, A., & Lutz, W. (2017). Therapist Effects on and Predictors of Non-Consensual Dropout in Psychotherapy. Clinical Psychology and Psychotherapy, 24, 312-321.
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference
Relevant Episodes: Irrational Ethics
Dr. Harry Aponte: The Person of the Therapist
Impaired Therapists
Burnout or Depression
Structuring Self-Care
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Irrational Ethics Curt and Katie chat about how current ethical standards fail to recognize culture and humanity. We talk about how the ethics codes were initially created, looking at the racist, sexist, classist roots. We also discuss the problems in how ethics are usually taught and the lack of focus on ethical thinking and decision-making, rather than rigidly following rules based in oppression.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The gaps in the ethics codes, looking at the historical roots of the current codes * How ethics codes were initially created – racist, sexist, classist roots * The systemic implications related to continuing to refine the codes, rather than re-norming or recreating starting with the current people in the profession * Thoughts around fixing the codes to be more representative and inclusive * The challenges that ethics committees face in considering a new ethics code * The aspirational aspects of the “shared values” * The problems with how we teach ethics in grad school * “We were taught ethics as laws.” * The need to think ethically, not blindly follow rules out of context * The problem with rigidly holding to imperfect ethical codes * Authoritarian practices of holding each other to ethics codes * “We’re perpetuating oppression and disguising it as morality” – Curt Widhalm * Principle ethics – bare-minimum guidelines to protect against the lowest common denominator * Aspirational ethics – and why we should move in this direction * The willing ignorance of other cultures within the ethical codes * Our requirement to hold to white Eurocentric ideals * What we can do to improve the codes * Looking at ourselves as individuals and having guidance on how we can be better * The failure of the codes to consider how therapists show up in the room * The importance of having best practices for optimizing performance for therapists * The problem with not clearly distinguishing between principle versus aspirational codes * Posing the question on what an ethics code would look like when it isn’t tied to a professional association
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Association of Black Psychologists
The Society of Indian Psychologists
Complaints about the ethics codes from ethnic minority psychological associations
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference
Relevant Episodes: That’s Unethical
Nam Rindani: Therapy with an Accent
Dr. Sonya Lott: Cultural Humility and White Fatigue
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Therapy with an Accent An interview with Namrata Rindani, LMFT on her experiences as an immigrant from India getting re-trained as a therapist in the United States. Curt and Katie talk with Nam about the systemic problems in the American graduate education system, her insight into how education can improve, and how she navigates having an accent with other professionals and potential clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Namrata Rindani, LMFT Nam Rindani is a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in working with men and therapists in California through her teletherapy practice as well as owner and Relationship Coach at Ebonessence Coaching and Consulting for Men. Her 17-year clinical experience spans two continents and multiple languages as she practiced therapy in India serving the marginalized before moving to the United States. Nam served as Prelicensed Chair of San Diego CAMFT in 2015 and is also founder and comoderator of large online community, Therapists In Private Practice, where she found her passion for engaging and moderating difficult yet necessary conversations about topics of systemic injustice, marginalization and oppression within and outside the therapy field. Nam believes that by opening up conversations where the marginalized are heard and the unassuming oppressive groups are informed, we can begin to build bridges and close gaps that have plagued communities for generations.
In this episode we talk about: * Nam’s journey to becoming a therapist in the US after practicing in India * The training differences between India and the US * The gatekeeping and barriers to practicing when moving to the US * The differences she found between herself and her colleagues in her program * Balancing how much to speak up with how to avoid dimming her own light * The view of expert status and humanity within the therapy relationship * The fear in the American system related to the person of the therapist and the relationship * Nam’s experience as a graduate student in the American system and the pressure to be the “good immigrant” * How to navigate the system as an international student * The problems of an oppressive system keeping students from achieving their goals as therapists * “We need you to edit who you are and then we will accept what it is that you have to say.” – Nam Rindani * The challenges of not having support to walk through requirements of the US system * “When it comes to places and space where our immigrant identity is going to be a problem – the way you respond to that is where the change needs to occur.” * How to address an accent or a foreign background – taking a leadership role in the difference you come into the room with * “For those of us who have accents and we come from other countries, YOU are the ones who have an accent.” * Why it is safer to call out difference in the beginning of a conversation * “When does my supervision begin and I stop being a museum specimen?” * Immigrant trauma within the profession * Looking at the framework of each person’s view of relationships within the training (both in how it is trained and who is performing treatment) * How people define normal is very culturally bound and the need to check in with each person’s perspective * A grassroots approach to systemic change * How she has shaped her practice to align with her identity and to support the work while also avoiding working with people who are unsafe for her as a therapist
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
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Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Private Practice Grief What if you could give them a true, meaningful experience… and never feel nervous or overwhelmed in the face of grief again? What if you had an expansive toolbox of resources and ways to help your clients navigate thru their pain? What if you had a solid framework to guide you? Private Practice Grief Trainings help you as clinicians and therapists to confidently address the devastating effects of grief so your clients can find hope and joy again. Debi Jenkins Frankle is the force behind Private Practice Grief Trainings and she is passionate about helping YOU transform yourself as a clinician. Grief comes in our offices every day. And once you recognize it and know how to handle it, you'll be able to expand your practice so we can heal the world!! Advanced Grief Therapy Training for only $395
Want to feel more confident to address grief with your clients? Want to find out how to help them with feelings of guilt and remorse? You need more training, strategies and resources in specific areas of grief? Join Private Practice Grief Trainings for a 6-week comprehensive advanced online training which includes 20 CEU’s for LMFTs, LCSWs, and LPCC’s in California! $300 off the regular price of $695 with your attendee code for Therapy Reimagined 2020.
Check out her other courses and consultation available at PrivatePracticeGrief.com
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
www.soulnarratives.com
namrindani.com
Facebook: Nam Rindani
TIPP: Therapist In Private Practice Facebook Group
Relevant Episodes:
The Person of the Therapist
Bridging Cultural and Communication Differences in a Bilingual Psychotherapy Practice
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Rage and Client Self-Harm An interview with Angela Caldwell, LMFT on cutting and non-suicidal self-injury. Curt and Katie talk with Angela about the causes of self-harm, the mistakes therapists make in addressing self-harm as well as how to identify reasons behind this harmful coping mechanism and how to identify when suicidality is a risk. We also look at how rage within nice families can lead to self-injury.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Angela Caldwell, LMFT Angela Caldwell is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Family Coach. She is the Founder and Director of the Self-Injury Institute, where her practice focuses on the treatment of self-injury from a family systems perspective, as well as the Caldwell Family Institute, where she offers out-of-the-box coaching for families that are looking for something other than therapy to help them reach their growth potential.
Angela is currently on the adjunct faculty for the MFT graduate program at California State University Northridge, where she teaches family systems theories and couples therapy. She has been teaching graduate students for over a decade at four different universities, and previously taught assessment for a large majority of her teaching career. She was selected by Antioch University to design a curriculum for a new Counselor Assessment class, and has offered consultation on assessments for the last eight years.
Angela has served in MFT leadership for much of her career, including holding executive offices in CAMFT and AAMFT. She has worked side by side with Ben Caldwell and other leaders on various advocacy efforts in California, most notably on the passage of SB 1172, which banned reparative therapy for minors in 2012.
In this episode we talk about: * Angela’s perspective on family systems and champions of families and dinner tables * The mistakes in treatment planning and way of being related to self-injury * What not to do when clients disclose self-harm * The intrusive nature of liability-focused treatment planning and interventions in the room * The need to render cutting irrelevant * The role of the family treatment for addressing self-injury * Non-suicidal self-injury versus suicidal self-injury (the difference is intent) * “It’s important for therapists to be able to talk about suicide – to use the word suicide with the same emphasis that we use the word hamburger.” Angela Caldwell, LMFT * It’s important to be direct in asking about intent * “I’m cautious to link self-injury with suicide in such a short, abrupt way.” Angela Caldwell, LMFT * Rage in families who are too nice leading to self-injury * The profiles in non-suicidal self-injury: peer-based and rage-based * Social media self-injury and mental illness competitions * How rage is often misunderstood – looking at how rage and anger are very different * Rage is animalistic and limbic * Self-injury is rage (when anger is not useful) when you do not want to be a burden * Rage comes with tactile stimulus seeking, seeking destruction * Discovery is mortifying * The problem with group treatment for cutting * The contagion factor – Barent Walsh * Co-rumination – looking at adolescent female relationships * Family Therapy as the most effective treatment for non- * Rewrite the family constitution around anger and anger expression * Family assertiveness training, teaching families how to disagree and hurt each other’s feelings * Angela’s strategy to provoke fights within the families that she sees and conducts repair
Our Generous Sponsors: Hushmail Hushmail and Hush Secure Forms take the guesswork out of secure communications by providing encrypted email, web forms, and e-signatures all in one package. During a time when limiting contact is necessary to protect our clients’ health, using secure email and web forms to communicate is more important than ever. Now’s the perfect time to move your paper forms and PDFs to HIPAA-compliant, digital forms that your clients can easily fill out. You can send them through secure email or put them on your website. Hush Secure Forms makes emailing securely with your clients and using HIPAA-compliant web forms very easy. You can start with one of their form templates and customize it to reflect your practice or use their drag-and-drop form builder to build beautiful forms from scratch. No need for extra services to get your forms signed; Hushmail provides email, web forms, and e-signatures that work seamlessly together in one package to get the job done. Great for contact forms, health histories, client experience surveys, referrals, and screenings. Among other popular forms, Hushmail’s template directory includes a COVID-19 screening questionnaire and several screening forms such as the PHQ-9 depression screening and the GAD-7 anxiety screening, which calculate a score upon completion.
And as a Modern Therapist Survival Guide Listener, you get a 10 percent lifetime discount. Just go to hushmail.com/therapyreimagined and sign up for the Hushmail for Healthcare plan that suits your practice. Hushmail has a plan for everyone!
Kelly & Miranda – ZynnyMe Do you ever wish there was someone who could really tell you what the right path is for YOU in private practice so you could avoid wasting time and energy and get to what you love- helping clients? Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe are two therapists who just that!
They don't get you cookie-cutter solutions that work for some people- instead they teach you a process that works for everybody.
Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe have been helping therapists from across the country and around the world grow, revamp, and launch profitable private practices that really help people- while also making sure therapists' lives stay in balance. Their award-winning and multiple time sell-out Business School Bootcamp for Therapists is the largest private practice resource on the planet and will transform your life and business whether you are 20+ years in, or you are starting from scratch. They have the largest collection of free private practice resources for therapists - go to ZynnyMe.com today and sign up for their free Marketing Masterclass COVID edition and get access to 10+ hours of free training AND a free community for therapists that is NOT on Facebook!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Self-injury Institute
Caldwell Family Institute
Barent Walsh, PhD
Relevant Episodes:
Preventing Client Suicide
When Clients Die
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Cultural Humility and White Fatigue An interview with Dr. Sonya Lott about a multicultural orientation to therapy and the work to understand yourself, how you’re perceived, and who the client is in front of you. Curt and Katie talk with Sonya about cultural humility in particular as well as the fatigue (including the concept of “white fatigue”) that can come with this work. We look at self-compassion and education as promising steps for improvement.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Sonya Lott, Ph.D. Sonya Lott earned her Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University and has been licensed as a psychologist in Pennsylvania since 1991. She is also a registered in Florida as out-of-state telehealth provider.
She is the founder and CEO of CEMPSYCH, LLC (Continuing Education in Multicultural Psychology), which offers continuing education that supports mental health professionals in cultivating a multicultural orientation, and is approved by the American Psychological Association (APA) to sponsor continuing education for psychologists. She also serves on the Advisory Board of Whites Confronting Racism, an organization in Philadelphia that works with White people who desire to challenge the racism within and around them and who are searching for a way to strengthen their work for racial justice.
In addition to this work, she maintains a private practice devoted to helping individuals transform their experience of acute and prolonged grief. She is an associate of the Center for Complicated Grief at Columbia University's School of Social Work, where she completed advanced training in Complicated Grief Therapy (CGT).
You can learn more about her work at cempsych.com and drsonyalott.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Multicultural approach – looking at all elements of cultural identity * Dominance, privilege, and bias * The importance of seeing beyond their lived * The multicultural orientation is a way of being * Cultural Humility – organizing virtue * Recognizing cultural opportunities * Invitation for discussion * Microaggressions in the therapy room * Comfort in making repairs * Being aware of who you are and where you sit with marginalization and with privilege * “Every experience is a multicultural experience” – Dr. Sonya Lott * Know who you are to yourself and to others – it is important to understand how you are perceived by others * The difference between white fragility and white fatigue * With privilege you have an opt-out card * The work of healing marginalization is a felt process * “It’s more than ‘what’s a good book to read?’” – Dr. Sonya Lott * Self-compassion and self-care needed for doing this work * Seeing ourselves as human and recognizing that we don’t have all of the answers * Recognizing what is relevant in the room * Self-Compassion: shared humanity, mindfulness, and loving kindness * “It’s not just for your clients, it’s not just to make a living, it’s to transform your way of being – period – that benefits you and everybody you’re in relationship with.” * Why the therapy profession doesn’t get this right – because they don’t have to. * The fifty years of literature on this topic that is often ignored due to people not being informed, not comfortable, and not having done their own work
Our Generous Sponsors: Kelly & Miranda – ZynnyMe Do you ever wish there was someone who could really tell you what the right path is for YOU in private practice so you could avoid wasting time and energy and get to what you love- helping clients? Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe are two therapists who just that!
They don't get you cookie-cutter solutions that work for some people- instead they teach you a process that works for everybody.
Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe have been helping therapists from across the country and around the world grow, revamp, and launch profitable private practices that really help people- while also making sure therapists' lives stay in balance. Their award-winning and multiple time sell-out Business School Bootcamp for Therapists is the largest private practice resource on the planet and will transform your life and business whether you are 20+ years in, or you are starting from scratch. They have the largest collection of free private practice resources for therapists - go to ZynnyMe.com today and sign up for their free Marketing Masterclass COVID edition and get access to 10+ hours of free training AND a free community for therapists that is NOT on Facebook!
Hushmail Hushmail and Hush Secure Forms take the guesswork out of secure communications by providing encrypted email, web forms, and e-signatures all in one package. During a time when limiting contact is necessary to protect our clients’ health, using secure email and web forms to communicate is more important than ever. Now’s the perfect time to move your paper forms and PDFs to HIPAA-compliant, digital forms that your clients can easily fill out. You can send them through secure email or put them on your website. Hush Secure Forms makes emailing securely with your clients and using HIPAA-compliant web forms very easy. You can start with one of their form templates and customize it to reflect your practice or use their drag-and-drop form builder to build beautiful forms from scratch. No need for extra services to get your forms signed; Hushmail provides email, web forms, and e-signatures that work seamlessly together in one package to get the job done. Great for contact forms, health histories, client experience surveys, referrals, and screenings. Among other popular forms, Hushmail’s template directory includes a COVID-19 screening questionnaire and several screening forms such as the PHQ-9 depression screening and the GAD-7 anxiety screening, which calculate a score upon completion.
And as a Modern Therapist Survival Guide Listener, you get a 10 percent lifetime discount. Just go to hushmail.com/therapyreimagined and sign up for the Hushmail for Healthcare plan that suits your practice. Hushmail has a plan for everyone!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
CEM Psych website: cempsych.com
Special Offer from Dr. Sonya Lott for one of her courses – coupon code for 10% off at checkout: tenmtsg
Dr. Sonya Lott’s website: drsonyalott.com
Multicultural Orientation Article
Cultural Humility
An Article on White Fatigue
Self-Compassion - Kristen Neff
Relevant Episodes: Ally is a Verb
Dr. Daryl Chow: Reigniting Therapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
“Wear a Mask” as a Therapy Directive Curt and Katie chat about COVID, science, and critical thinking in an anti-intellectual, post-truth era. We look at what therapists’ responsibilities are to the greater good, whether we should tell our clients to wear masks, and how to help clients navigate very challenging decisions that must balance mental versus physical health as well as individual versus societal needs.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Should we tell our clients to wear masks? * How do we help our clients navigate the complex decisions related to risk * Client autonomy, transparency of goals, decreasing therapist bias * How science and the greater good come into the equation * Is there a duty to warn? Or duty to protect? * Imminence, privacy issues * Should we try to change behavior around wearing masks in public? * How we address risky behavior with clients * The impact of the presenting problem on deciding what we do * Our responsibility to society, to our communities versus our clients * Psychoeducation and alternate facts * The process of making decisions around health and safety * Sorting through and gaining agreement on what is truth * Therapists needing to be informed and be able to sort through expert information * The importance of critical thinking and the scientific method * Anti-science, anti-intellectualism, and cognitive dissonance * How to meet your client where they are while also not colluding with unhealthy beliefs * Helping our clients to navigate the current challenges to balance physical vs mental health needs, individual vs societal needs * The responsibility to bring up healthy decisions for our clients through psychoeducation * The complexity of decision-making during these times
Our Generous Sponsors: Hushmail Hushmail and Hush Secure Forms take the guesswork out of secure communications by providing encrypted email, web forms, and e-signatures all in one package. During a time when limiting contact is necessary to protect our clients’ health, using secure email and web forms to communicate is more important than ever. Now’s the perfect time to move your paper forms and PDFs to HIPAA-compliant, digital forms that your clients can easily fill out. You can send them through secure email or put them on your website. Hush Secure Forms makes emailing securely with your clients and using HIPAA-compliant web forms very easy. You can start with one of their form templates and customize it to reflect your practice or use their drag-and-drop form builder to build beautiful forms from scratch. No need for extra services to get your forms signed; Hushmail provides email, web forms, and e-signatures that work seamlessly together in one package to get the job done. Great for contact forms, health histories, client experience surveys, referrals, and screenings. Among other popular forms, Hushmail’s template directory includes a COVID-19 screening questionnaire and several screening forms such as the PHQ-9 depression screening and the GAD-7 anxiety screening, which calculate a score upon completion.
And as a Modern Therapist Survival Guide Listener, you get a 10 percent lifetime discount. Just go to hushmail.com/therapyreimagined and sign up for the Hushmail for Healthcare plan that suits your practice. Hushmail has a plan for everyone!
Kelly & Miranda – ZynnyMe Do you ever wish there was someone who could really tell you what the right path is for YOU in private practice so you could avoid wasting time and energy and get to what you love- helping clients? Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe are two therapists who just that!
They don't get you cookie-cutter solutions that work for some people- instead they teach you a process that works for everybody.
Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe have been helping therapists from across the country and around the world grow, revamp, and launch profitable private practices that really help people- while also making sure therapists' lives stay in balance. Their award-winning and multiple time sell-out Business School Bootcamp for Therapists is the largest private practice resource on the planet and will transform your life and business whether you are 20+ years in, or you are starting from scratch. They have the largest collection of free private practice resources for therapists - go to ZynnyMe.com today and sign up for their free Marketing Masterclass COVID edition and get access to 10+ hours of free training AND a free community for therapists that is NOT on Facebook!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Ben Caldwell – friend of the show
WHO - World Health Organization - COVID-19 information
CDC - Centers for Disease Control - COVID-19 Information
Article: Wearing of face masks can trigger trauma for some
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Returning to the Office
Is Therapy an Opiate of the Masses?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Starting a Therapist Podcast An interview with Joe Sanok, host of the Practice of the Practice podcast, on why, how, and when to start a podcast. Curt and Katie talk with Joe about what to consider when you’re a therapist with a bigger message. We get into some practical steps for podcasting. We also look at how you can create space for creativity, making a bigger impact, and slowing down.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Joe Sanok Joe Sanok is a thought leader, productivity researcher, and speaker. As a TEDx speaker, HarperCollin author, business consultant, and podcaster Joe helps people to slow down to spark more innovation. Joe has the #1 podcast for counselors, The Practice of the Practice Podcast. With interviews with Pat Flynn, John Lee Dumas, and Jaime Masters, Joe is a rising star in the speaking world!
Joe is a writer for PsychCentral, has been featured on the Huffington Post, Forbes, GOOD Magazine, Reader's Digest, Entrepreneur on Fire, and Yahoo News. He is author of five books and has been named the Therapist Resource top podcast, consultant, and blogger.
In this episode we talk about: * The mistakes that Joe made that informs his work * The need to listen to their audience prior to launching products * How to listen to your audience * “Fall in love with the pain and the people before you ever pitch a product.” * Identifying pain points and the transformation * Applying the therapeutic process to content creation * Building your audience to the point that you can ask what the pain points are * Why it would be a good idea to start a podcast * Pod-fading - most podcasts stop releasing episodes within 12 episodes * How to choose your topic * The importance of being yourself * Understanding the goals of your podcast * The surprising things that happen when you have a podcast * Visibility and connection that comes from podcasting * Figuring out your next step and jumping before you’re ready * The importance of setting limits around your time – how that impacts your performance * The problem with over-thinking * The benefit of delegating tasks and dramatically decreasing your time at work * The process of refining your business to better support you and the problem of perfectionism
Our Generous Sponsors: Kelly & Miranda – ZynnyMe Do you ever wish there was someone who could really tell you what the right path is for YOU in private practice so you could avoid wasting time and energy and get to what you love- helping clients? Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe are two therapists who just that!
They don't get you cookie-cutter solutions that work for some people- instead they teach you a process that works for everybody.
Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe have been helping therapists from across the country and around the world grow, revamp, and launch profitable private practices that really help people- while also making sure therapists' lives stay in balance. Their award-winning and multiple time sell-out Business School Bootcamp for Therapists is the largest private practice resource on the planet and will transform your life and business whether you are 20+ years in, or you are starting from scratch. They have the largest collection of free private practice resources for therapists - go to ZynnyMe.com today and sign up for their free Marketing Masterclass COVID edition and get access to 10+ hours of free training AND a free community for therapists that is NOT on Facebook!
Hushmail Hushmail and Hush Secure Forms take the guesswork out of secure communications by providing encrypted email, web forms, and e-signatures all in one package. During a time when limiting contact is necessary to protect our clients’ health, using secure email and web forms to communicate is more important than ever. Now’s the perfect time to move your paper forms and PDFs to HIPAA-compliant, digital forms that your clients can easily fill out. You can send them through secure email or put them on your website. Hush Secure Forms makes emailing securely with your clients and using HIPAA-compliant web forms very easy. You can start with one of their form templates and customize it to reflect your practice or use their drag-and-drop form builder to build beautiful forms from scratch. No need for extra services to get your forms signed; Hushmail provides email, web forms, and e-signatures that work seamlessly together in one package to get the job done. Great for contact forms, health histories, client experience surveys, referrals, and screenings. Among other popular forms, Hushmail’s template directory includes a COVID-19 screening questionnaire and several screening forms such as the PHQ-9 depression screening and the GAD-7 anxiety screening, which calculate a score upon completion.
And as a Modern Therapist Survival Guide Listener, you get a 10 percent lifetime discount. Just go to hushmail.com/therapyreimagined and sign up for the Hushmail for Healthcare plan that suits your practice. Hushmail has a plan for everyone!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Joe Sanok’s Practice of the Practice Podcast
Special offer from Joe: Free e-course podcastlaunchschool.com
practiceofthepractice.com
Apply to work with Joe
Relevant Episodes: Beyond Selling the Couch
Delegating Virtually Anything
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Financial Therapy An interview with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, LMSW, about therapists talking about money with their clients. Curt and Katie talk with Lindsay about what therapists miss if they don’t bring money into the room. We look at the importance of financial therapy both for clients who are struggling financially as well as for clients who might be making more than you (and everyone in between).
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Lindsay Bryan Podvin, LMSW, Financial Therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin is a biracial financial therapist, speaker, and author. As the first financial therapist in Michigan, she combines financial literacy with the emotional and psychological side of money. She's passionate about helping couples and individuals learn how to have a healthy relationship with money by removing shame from it. She helps her clients navigate financial wellness in a way that works for them.
In this episode we talk about: * Talking about money in the therapy room beyond budgeting * How frequently therapists avoid talking about money * Bias that therapists bring into the room around money * The challenge therapists face when money becomes an issue in session * How money issues come up for people who have money (not just people who have a lack of money) * The irony of therapists being told we shouldn’t make money * Myths surrounding financial therapy * Therapists already have the skills they need to do this work * The Four Financial Archetypes that Lindsay adapted from Dr. Brad Klontz’s work * The work needed to address your Financial Archetype * The types of conversations that can happen when you open up money as a topic of conversation in therapy * Looking at cultural and gender roles within the money conversation * The intervention of “money dates” * The importance of recognizing limitations in talking about money
Our Generous Sponsors: Hushmail Hushmail and Hush Secure Forms take the guesswork out of secure communications by providing encrypted email, web forms, and e-signatures all in one package. During a time when limiting contact is necessary to protect our clients’ health, using secure email and web forms to communicate is more important than ever. Now’s the perfect time to move your paper forms and PDFs to HIPAA-compliant, digital forms that your clients can easily fill out. You can send them through secure email or put them on your website. Hush Secure Forms makes emailing securely with your clients and using HIPAA-compliant web forms very easy. You can start with one of their form templates and customize it to reflect your practice or use their drag-and-drop form builder to build beautiful forms from scratch. No need for extra services to get your forms signed; Hushmail provides email, web forms, and e-signatures that work seamlessly together in one package to get the job done. Great for contact forms, health histories, client experience surveys, referrals, and screenings. Among other popular forms, Hushmail’s template directory includes a COVID-19 screening questionnaire and several screening forms such as the PHQ-9 depression screening and the GAD-7 anxiety screening, which calculate a score upon completion.
And as a Modern Therapist Survival Guide Listener, you get a 10 percent lifetime discount. Just go to hushmail.com/therapyreimagined and sign up for the Hushmail for Healthcare plan that suits your practice. Hushmail has a plan for everyone!
Kelly & Miranda – ZynnyMe Do you ever wish there was someone who could really tell you what the right path is for YOU in private practice so you could avoid wasting time and energy and get to what you love- helping clients? Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe are two therapists who just that!
They don't get you cookie-cutter solutions that work for some people- instead they teach you a process that works for everybody.
Kelly & Miranda of ZynnyMe have been helping therapists from across the country and around the world grow, revamp, and launch profitable private practices that really help people- while also making sure therapists' lives stay in balance. Their award-winning and multiple time sell-out Business School Bootcamp for Therapists is the largest private practice resource on the planet and will transform your life and business whether you are 20+ years in, or you are starting from scratch. They have the largest collection of free private practice resources for therapists - go to ZynnyMe.com today and sign up for their free Marketing Masterclass COVID edition and get access to 10+ hours of free training AND a free community for therapists that is NOT on Facebook!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Lindsay’s Website: https://www.mindmoneybalance.com/
Lindsay’s Course: https://mindmoneybalance.com/podcast
Lindsay’s Book: The Financial Anxiety Solution
Dr. Brad Klontz – Financial Therapy
Relevant Episodes: Making Bank as a Therapist
In it for the Money
Asking for Money
The 4-1-1 on Your 401K
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Greater Impact as a Therapist An interview with Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT about how to grow a big impact through personal branding, speaking, and breaking into larger media channels. Curt and Katie talk with Kiaundra about the importance of authenticity, owning your credibility, and diversifying your income through alternate methods to get your message out there.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT Kiaundra Jackson is known as America's #1 Relationship Therapist. She has been seen on OWN’s new hit TV Show, Love Goals and as a reoccurring expert on The Doctors. She has been recently featured in Oprah’s Magazine, Essence, The New York Times, FOX, The CW, BET, Vice and The Huffington Post as one of the ‘10 Black Female Therapists You Should Know.’ She is an award-winning speaker, best-selling author, TV Personality and a trusted Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist that gets results. She is a noted expert on healthy relationships and mental health. Kiaundra is the visionary of KW Couples Therapy and the Co-Founder of Black Speakers Rock.
Through her early work, she discovered the importance of having healthy relationships. From that point on, she chose to specialize in helping couples strengthen and repair their relationships. She helps to improve intimacy with couples by increasing effective two-way communication. She is dedicated to helping couples increase sexual, physical, emotional, and spiritual intimacy. Kiaundra specializes in working with couples who truly desire to maintain a healthy, long-lasting relationship and uncover their true potential.
Kiaundra’s vision is to help ONE MILLION couples heal their relationships, prevent divorce, and keep families together.
In this episode we talk about: * Kiaundra’s goal of helping therapists create an impact beyond the therapy room * The importance of being authentic and showing up the same way wherever you are (on a stage or in the therapy room) * Intentional effort to make your public persona through your expertise, your credibility, and your self – based on the story people might tell about you when you’re not there, living out loud * How to claim your credibility, even when you’re not ready to believe it * Therapists have a huge wealth of knowledge, so we need to identify what we want to talk about * The vulnerability of putting yourself on a larger stage * Combatting the haters by focusing on those people who do love you or resonate with you * Impostor Syndrome based on being vulnerable and in the public eye * “People don’t always watch you because they want to see you to win, they’re waiting for that one moment for you to mess up.” – Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT * We have to put this aside and show up every time * The importance of showing up more consistently on social media, especially with live videos * Showing up in your community – speaking at smaller events, giving back to our community * The ability to give more information to your applications for conferences or podcast interviews, if you have a social media presence * How to use a larger brand to impact others, serve others, and diversify income * Things to consider when making a decision on what you do – core values, financial compensation, and connection – as well as sorting through what is beneficial * There is nothing wrong with doing free speaking engagements – but you need to be strategic about it * The additional benefits you can ask for when getting a free or lower paid speaking offer * Make sure your target audience is in the audience where you are speaking (and you’re talking about what you’d like to work on, your expertise, and how you’d like to grow) * The hard lessons of saying yes when you should have probably said no – not aligned, not organized (with their business together), when you don’t feel good about what you did that day * Owning your growth edges and moving forward * How the pandemic has impacted speaking and presenting * Kiaundra’s courses to support new and emerging speakers
Our Generous Sponsors: Brighter Vision Hey Modern Therapists!
Do you need help building your brand? Feel like you don’t even know where to begin when it comes to marketing your practice online?
Whether you’re a seasoned clinician with a website in need of a refresh, or you’re fresh out of school needing your very first therapist website, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution.
From building a brand and designing the perfect website to reflect that, to helping you rank higher with search engines. They’ve even created tools to make online marketing simple that are specifically for therapists.
We’ve worked with them to create a special offer just for all of you Modern Therapists.
All you have to do is go to brightervision.com/modern to learn more and get your first month free of any new website package.
New Beginning Family and Counseling & Training Center New Beginning Family Counseling & Training Center printing services are offered with the intention to take mental health awareness beyond the couch. You can order one item to bring your message to life or multiple for others to help support your message.
Printing services available. No minimums. No color limitations. Bulk orders for your next event, your office staff or to help spread your message.
Premium t-shirts, tote bags, drinkware and more!
Click HERE to submit your order and see our work. Mention “The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast” to receive 15% off your first order.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Kiaundra Jackson's website
Kiaundra Jackson on Instagram
Kiaundra’s Courses
Relevant Episodes: The Brand Called You
Get Paid to Speak
Crafting Your Authentic Message
Interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT: Let’s Talk About Race
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Greater Impact as a Therapist An interview with Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT about how to grow a big impact through personal branding, speaking, and breaking into larger media channels. Curt and Katie talk with Kiaundra about the importance of authenticity, owning your credibility, and diversifying your income through alternate methods to get your message out there.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT Kiaundra Jackson is known as America's #1 Relationship Therapist. She has been seen on OWN’s new hit TV Show, Love Goals and as a reoccurring expert on The Doctors. She has been recently featured in Oprah’s Magazine, Essence, The New York Times, FOX, The CW, BET, Vice and The Huffington Post as one of the ‘10 Black Female Therapists You Should Know.’ She is an award-winning speaker, best-selling author, TV Personality and a trusted Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist that gets results. She is a noted expert on healthy relationships and mental health. Kiaundra is the visionary of KW Couples Therapy and the Co-Founder of Black Speakers Rock.
Through her early work, she discovered the importance of having healthy relationships. From that point on, she chose to specialize in helping couples strengthen and repair their relationships. She helps to improve intimacy with couples by increasing effective two-way communication. She is dedicated to helping couples increase sexual, physical, emotional, and spiritual intimacy. Kiaundra specializes in working with couples who truly desire to maintain a healthy, long-lasting relationship and uncover their true potential.
Kiaundra’s vision is to help ONE MILLION couples heal their relationships, prevent divorce, and keep families together.
In this episode we talk about: * Kiaundra’s goal of helping therapists create an impact beyond the therapy room * The importance of being authentic and showing up the same way wherever you are (on a stage or in the therapy room) * Intentional effort to make your public persona through your expertise, your credibility, and your self – based on the story people might tell about you when you’re not there, living out loud * How to claim your credibility, even when you’re not ready to believe it * Therapists have a huge wealth of knowledge, so we need to identify what we want to talk about * The vulnerability of putting yourself on a larger stage * Combatting the haters by focusing on those people who do love you or resonate with you * Impostor Syndrome based on being vulnerable and in the public eye * “People don’t always watch you because they want to see you to win, they’re waiting for that one moment for you to mess up.” – Kiaundra Jackson, LMFT * We have to put this aside and show up every time * The importance of showing up more consistently on social media, especially with live videos * Showing up in your community – speaking at smaller events, giving back to our community * The ability to give more information to your applications for conferences or podcast interviews, if you have a social media presence * How to use a larger brand to impact others, serve others, and diversify income * Things to consider when making a decision on what you do – core values, financial compensation, and connection – as well as sorting through what is beneficial * There is nothing wrong with doing free speaking engagements – but you need to be strategic about it * The additional benefits you can ask for when getting a free or lower paid speaking offer * Make sure your target audience is in the audience where you are speaking (and you’re talking about what you’d like to work on, your expertise, and how you’d like to grow) * The hard lessons of saying yes when you should have probably said no – not aligned, not organized (with their business together), when you don’t feel good about what you did that day * Owning your growth edges and moving forward * How the pandemic has impacted speaking and presenting * Kiaundra’s courses to support new and emerging speakers
Our Generous Sponsors: Brighter Vision Hey Modern Therapists!
Do you need help building your brand? Feel like you don’t even know where to begin when it comes to marketing your practice online?
Whether you’re a seasoned clinician with a website in need of a refresh, or you’re fresh out of school needing your very first therapist website, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution.
From building a brand and designing the perfect website to reflect that, to helping you rank higher with search engines. They’ve even created tools to make online marketing simple that are specifically for therapists.
We’ve worked with them to create a special offer just for all of you Modern Therapists.
All you have to do is go to brightervision.com/modern to learn more and get your first month free of any new website package.
New Beginning Family and Counseling & Training Center New Beginning Family Counseling & Training Center printing services are offered with the intention to take mental health awareness beyond the couch. You can order one item to bring your message to life or multiple for others to help support your message.
Printing services available. No minimums. No color limitations. Bulk orders for your next event, your office staff or to help spread your message.
Premium t-shirts, tote bags, drinkware and more!
Click HERE to submit your order and see our work. Mention “The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast” to receive 15% off your first order.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Kiaundra Jackson's website
Kiaundra Jackson on Instagram
Kiaundra’s Courses
Relevant Episodes: The Brand Called You
Get Paid to Speak
Crafting Your Authentic Message
Interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT: Let’s Talk About Race
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Is Therapy an Opiate of the Masses? Curt and Katie chat about how therapy can collude with the status quo and has historically failed to serve marginalized populations. We talk about the risks of therapy that doesn’t honor the context and systems within which people and families operate. We look at how therapists can create complacence and obedience if not careful.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Criticisms of therapy as an opiate of the masses * Does therapy reinforce the status quo? * “Normal” as a culture bound concept * Feminist Therapy, Liberation Psychology, Decolonized Therapy * The history of pathologizing or demonizing LGBTQ+ * Therapy as a white construct * Bias in MMPI and re-norming * How bias toward “normal” permeates clinical work * How therapists reinforce systems norms, encouraging placating the system * First, Second, and Third Order change – Individual within family within the systems within which the family operates * Individual versus collective change * The challenge of assessing and treating within the complex overlay of systems * The limitations of evidence-based treatments * The vision of acceptance of diversity * Therapist training gaps * The Seven-Eyed Model of Supervision * Impacts for case conceptualization * Looking at clients as agents of change, as impacted by their context * Validating experiences, increasing resilience and capacity, empowering client to make larger changes * Suggesting coping skills without diminishing systemic impacts * Therapy as a bandaid * “As therapists, we can do a really good job of moving people to complacence if we’re not careful.” – Katie * Helping individuals to heal, then moving to “now that” * The requirement for therapists to be advocates for change within their communities
Our Generous Sponsor: Brighter Vision Hey Modern Therapists!
Do you need help building your brand? Feel like you don’t even know where to begin when it comes to marketing your practice online?
Whether you’re a seasoned clinician with a website in need of a refresh, or you’re fresh out of school needing your very first therapist website, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution.
From building a brand and designing the perfect website to reflect that, to helping you rank higher with search engines. They’ve even created tools to make online marketing simple that are specifically for therapists.
We’ve worked with them to create a special offer just for all of you Modern Therapists.
All you have to do is go to brightervision.com/modern to learn more and get your first month free of any new website package.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Prostitution of Psychotherapy: A Feminist Critique
Third-Order Thinking in Family Therapy: Addressing Social Justice Across Family Therapy Practice
Seven-Eyed Model of Supervision
Decolonizing Therapy on Instagram
Prevention of farmer suicides: Greater need for state role than for a mental health professional's role
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Therapy as a Political Act
Is CBT Crap?
Defining the Therapy Movement
Interview with Dr. Harry Aponte: The Person of the Therapist
Interview with Dr. Joel Schwarz: Neurodivergence
Interview with Dr. Jamie Marich: Exploring Trauma and the 12 Steps
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Exploring Trauma and the 12 Steps An interview with Dr. Jamie Marich, on her revised book: Trauma and the 12 Steps, exploring how 12 Step programs can be trauma-informed. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Marich about how to interweave a trauma-focus into substance abuse self-help and treatment centers.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jamie Marich, Ph.D., LPCC-S, LICDC-CS, REAT, RYT-500, RMT Dr. Jamie Marich describes herself as a facilitator of transformative experiences. A clinical trauma specialist, expressive artist, writer, yogini, performer, short filmmaker, Reiki master, and recovery advocate, she unites all of these elements in her mission to inspire healing in others. She began her career as a humanitarian aid worker in Bosnia-Hercegovina from 2000-2003, primarily teaching English and music while freelancing with other projects. Jamie travels internationally teaching on topics related to trauma, EMDR therapy, expressive arts, mindfulness, and yoga, while maintaining a private practice in her home base of Warren, OH. Marich is the founder of the Institute for Creative Mindfulness and the developer of the Dancing Mindfulness practice to expressive arts therapy. She is also the co-creator of the Yoga Unchained approach to trauma-informed yoga, and the developer of Yoga for Clinicians. Marich is the author of EMDR Made Simple: 4 Approaches for Using EMDR with Every Client (2011), Trauma and the Twelve Steps: A Complete Guide for Recovery Enhancement (2012), Creative Mindfulness (2013), Trauma Made Simple: Competencies in Assessment, Treatment, and Working with Survivors, and Dancing Mindfulness: A Creative Path to Healing and Transformation (2015). Marich co-authored EMDR Therapy & Mindfulness for Trauma-Focused Care along with colleague Dr. Stephen Dansiger, which was released with Springer Publishing in 2017. Her newest title, Process Not Perfection: Expressive Arts Solutions for Trauma Recovery, released in April 2019. North Atlantic Books is publishing a second and expanded edition of Trauma and the 12 Steps, due for release in the Summer of 2020. Marich’s writing and work on Dancing Mindfulness was featured in the New York Times in 2017. In 2015, she had the privilege of delivering a TEDx talk on trauma. NALGAP: The Association of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender Addiction Professionals and Their Allies awarded Jamie with their esteemed President’s Award in 2015 for her work as an LGBT advocate. The EMDR International Association (EMDRIA) granted Jamie the 2019 Advocacy in EMDR Award for her using her public platform in media and in the addiction field to advance awareness about EMDR therapy and to reduce stigma around mental health.
In this episode we talk about: * Jamie Marich’s return to the podcast * The Revised and Expanded Trauma and the 12 Steps * The large variation in the programs for substance abuse treatment in whether they are able to include a trauma-informed lens * What it looks like to actually interweave the trauma-informed structure to substance abuse tx * The power and impact of one alcoholic talking to another * The importance of connection, community and relationships * The changing face of recovery (including starting with 2 white men and becoming more diverse and inclusive) * Attraction rather than promotion * Validating strife and struggle then challenging it * The bridge between trauma mental health treatment and recovery * The fear about trauma work within the addiction community * The lack of regard for the negative impact of substance abuse/dependence on the trauma mental health side. * How to balance out validation and compassion with a call to action that includes challenge, and accountability * The importance of daily lifestyle change * What works in the 12 Steps: connection, daily life style changes, tools to keep you accountable * Addressing problematic language in the Steps * Exploring how to unpack why language is triggering and what is problematic and what is informative for clinical work * Looking at religion, “God,” “Higher Power,” and how beliefs are handled in AA, looking at how to support people with spiritual abuse * Addressing inclusivity in 12 Step programs
Our Generous Sponsors: Brighter Vision Hey Modern Therapists!
Do you need help building your brand? Feel like you don’t even know where to begin when it comes to marketing your practice online?
Whether you’re a seasoned clinician with a website in need of a refresh, or you’re fresh out of school needing your very first therapist website, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution.
From building a brand and designing the perfect website to reflect that, to helping you rank higher with search engines. They’ve even created tools to make online marketing simple that are specifically for therapists.
We’ve worked with them to create a special offer just for all of you Modern Therapists.
All you have to do is go to brightervision.com/modern to learn more and get your first month free of any new website package.
New Beginning Family and Counseling & Training Center New Beginning Family Counseling & Training Center printing services are offered with the intention to take mental health awareness beyond the couch. You can order one item to bring your message to life or multiple for others to help support your message.
Printing services available. No minimums. No color limitations. Bulk orders for your next event, your office staff or to help spread your message.
Premium t-shirts, tote bags, drinkware and more!
Click HERE to submit your order and see our work. Mention “The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Podcast” to receive 15% off your first order.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Jamie Marich’s Trauma and the 12 Steps, Revised and Expanded: An Inclusive Guide to Enhancing Recovery
Dr. Jamie Marich’s Website
Trauma Made Simple
Dr. Jamie Marich on YouTube
AA Agnostica
Relevant Episode: Dissociation in Therapy – Interview with Dr. Jamie Marich
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also Past President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Work Harder Than Your Clients Curt and Katie chat about why and when you should ignore the advice to “not work harder than your clients.” We look at bias in goal-setting, managing risk, focusing on the client’s needs, and the importance of continuing education as well as on-going work outside of session.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The adage that you shouldn’t work harder than your clients * The concern that it gives permission to be lazy. * The importance of working hard as a therapist * Simplification of the concept of being more invested in the outcome than the client * Bad therapy practices – bias, lack of client determination, focusing on traditional treatment outcomes, investment in a specific outcome that may or may not align with clients’ values * Be present with your client on purpose, working hard * Deliberate practice versus complacency * Preparing for the situations that may come up, not just one specific concern * The “how” of therapy – looking at language, understanding, and relationship with the client * Consultation, self-assessment, case formulation * Better understanding of what the true workload is compared to your caseload * What you shouldn’t be doing to work harder within session * The business implications of working harder * Dismantling the truisms and oversimplified statements that get passed around * Clinical situations that require you to work harder than the clients * Working harder than a check box (clinical implications rather than liability check box) * Self-management – understanding why you’re doing what you’re doing * Questions to consider when looking at your efforts * Collaborative treatment planning (both overt and covert) * The impact of doing anti-racist work with clients who are not ready for it * The importance of identifying whose goal is being pursued in the room * The benefits of supervision and consultation * How to set covert goals, looking at work outside of session and timing * Dismantling assumptions and meeting clients where they are * The harder work we have to do is the work we need to do on ourselves * Responding to clients with curiosity, professionality, comfort, and authenticity
Our Generous Sponsor: Brighter Vision Hey Modern Therapists!
Do you need help building your brand? Feel like you don’t even know where to begin when it comes to marketing your practice online?
Whether you’re a seasoned clinician with a website in need of a refresh, or you’re fresh out of school needing your very first therapist website, Brighter Vision is the perfect solution.
From building a brand and designing the perfect website to reflect that, to helping you rank higher with search engines. They’ve even created tools to make online marketing simple that are specifically for therapists.
We’ve worked with them to create a special offer just for all of you Modern Therapists.
All you have to do is go to brightervision.com/modern to learn more and get your first month free of any new website package.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Story Re-Visions: Narrative Therapy in the Postmodern World by Alan Parry and Robert E. Doan
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Reigniting Therapy: An interview with Dr. Daryl Chow
The Person of the Therapist: An interview with Dr. Harry Aponte
Therapy as a Political Act: An interview with Dr. Travis Heath
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Bi+ Erasure An interview with Dr. Mimi Hoang, Ph.D., about Bi+ Affirmative therapy and what therapists often get wrong about working with Bi+ people. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Mimi about how often Bi+ people are left out of the conversation (and training) regarding LGBTQ+ people, the consistent erasure and exclusion Bi+ people face, the biases that show up in the therapy room, and how therapists can better prepare themselves for working with the largest segment of the LGBTQ+ community.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Mimi Hoang, Ph.D. (she/her/hers), Psychologist, Author, and Activist Dr. Mimi Hoang is a nationally-recognized psychologist, educator, author, and grassroots activist specializing in the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer (LGBTQ+) and Asian Pacific Islander (API) communities. Since the 1990s, she has co-founded three organizations in Los Angeles for bisexual, pansexual, fluid, and other nonmonosexual (AKA "bi+") individuals, authored multiple publications, and earned a seat at the landmark 2013 White House Bisexual Community Roundtable. Dr. Mimi's steadfast leadership has earned her multiple awards, a feature in Jan Dee Gordon's LGBTQ of Steel photography book, mentions in Cosmopolitan and HuffPost, and being named “One of the Most Significant Women in the Bisexual Movement.” She currently works as a Staff Psychologist at Loyola Marymount University (LMU) Student Psychological Services, Professor of Clinical Psychology at Antioch University Los Angeles, and is the creator of the "Bi on Life" self-empowerment series. Learn more at www.drmimihoang.com.
In this episode we talk about: * The tendency for conversations around LGBTQ+ training often leaves out information bisexuality * Mimi’s story, including the organizations she has created to support people who are bisexual, pansexual, fluid, and other nonmonosexual individuals * The challenge of identifying within a binary of gay or straight and heteronormativity * What therapists often get wrong when working with Bi+ clients * How likely it is that your client will come out to you * The biases against bisexuality in the therapy room * Misunderstanding, over simplification, quantification, and other problems in exploring sexuality with Bi+ people * Bi-Phobia from the gay community and code switching to “fit in” * The concept of Bi Erasure * The reasons for Bi+ erasure and exclusion * The doubt of existence of bisexuality * The huge gap in psychotherapist education related to bisexuality * The importance of getting more training on bisexuality * Asking the sexual orientation question, exploring sexuality * Neutralizing your language when talking about partners * Best practices for treating Bi+ people
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
drmimihoang.com
Los Angeles Bi Task Force
ambi
Relevant Episodes: What Clients Want
What Therapists Get Wrong
Vulnerability, the News, and You
Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understanding, and Social Justice
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Reigniting Therapy An interview with Dr. Daryl Chow regarding how to do effective therapy. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Chow about the ways in which therapists can improve clinically – looking at the relationship, the expectations of clients, and what we each uniquely bring to the room. We also discuss deliberate practice, lifelong learning, and the difference between confidence and competence.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Daryl Chow, MA, PhD (Psych) Daryl Chow, MA, PhD (Psych) is a practicing psychologist and trainer. He is a senior associate of the International Center for Clinical Excellence (ICCE). He devotes his time to workshops, consultations and researches the development of expertise and highly effective psychotherapists, helping practitioners to achieve better results.
Daryl is the author of The First Kiss: Undoing the Intake Model and Igniting First Sessions in Psychotherapy. His work has also appeared in edited books, peer-reviewed journal articles, and he is a co-editor of The Write to Recovery: Personal Stories & Lessons about Recovery from Mental Health Concerns.
Daryl’s blog, Frontiers of Psychotherapist Development is aimed at inspiring and sustaining practitioners’ individualized professional development. His highly personalized in-depth online course for supervisors, Reigniting Clinical Supervision, serves as a leading light to help raise the bar of effectiveness in psychotherapy.
Currently, Daryl maintains a private practice with a vibrant team at Henry Street Centre, Fremantle, and continues to serve as a senior psychologist at the Institute of Mental Health, Singapore.
In this episode we talk about: * Chow describing himself as a slow learner * The value of deep learning * The problems with therapist education * Banking versus kindling model of education * Learning conversation versus theory * The importance of practical learning * How we get in the way as therapists * How to manage first sessions (what you are gifting, versus what you are taking) * Undoing the intake perspective * We are not in the business of fast food * Trajectory of change, continuity of services * 20-30% of people come only for one session * “Sufficing” our information rather than deep probing * “Information is not transformation” – Dr. Daryl Chow * First principles and the hero’s journey * Evidence-based therapy versus developing good therapists * Deliberate practice as a verb * “It is so much easier to buy tools than to get good” * What is NOT deliberate practice * “Confidence is not competence” * We get worse as therapists over time if we don’t practice deliberately * The importance of lifelong learning * The systemic challenges to maintaining skills and getting better * What to work on that has leverage for you – finding your own growth edges * Measuring growth versus measuring performance * Re-moralizing clinicians through improving efficacy * The role of burnout and overwhelm in becoming complacent * The importance of feedback and “feeding forward” and making tweaks * Continuous calibration approach
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The First Kiss: Undoing the Intake Model by Dr. Daryl Chow
Better Results: Using Deliberate Practice to Improve Therapeutic Effectiveness by Scott D. Miller (Author), Mark A. Hubble (Author), Daryl Chow (Author)
Dr. Daryl Chow's Website
Daryl's website for therapists: Frontiers in Psychotherapist Development
Reigniting Clinical Supervision
Relevant Episodes: Be a Better Therapist
Finding Your Blind Spots
Person of the Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Mission Driven Work Curt and Katie chat about walking your talk, sticking to your mission, and being strategic in how you incorporate new initiatives and perspectives into your work. We look at the tendency to take action without thinking about where you fit into the conversation and without tying those actions back to your mission and why you do what you do.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The importance of focusing on your mission when making decisions in your business * Looking at why you do what you do * Implementing your mission within your business * Practical applications and systems to support new initiatives aligned with mission-driven work * Times when following your personal mission may be hard to do as a therapist * The importance of staying true to yourself and aligned with your mission and expertise * The difference between branding, marketing, and mission * What are you putting out into the world? * The danger of putting out something quickly in response to the zeitgeist versus aligning with your mission and your expertise * What is a mission and how do you develop one? * Getting strategic in how you incorporate new information into mission-driven work * The need for thinking and analysis before taking action * Sitting with discomfort and avoiding reacting too quickly * Intentional pathway guided by thought and strategy * Mission is not just a goal, it is how you work, who you want to work with, how you want to work, the guiding principles, how you make decisions * Broad, vague missions that are just “help people” or “do good things” do not support making a decision on how you respond to crises * Tying your actions to your mission will allow it to sustain momentum past the news cycle * How to incorporate antiracism into a business that is focused on addressing something else * The assessment of how you can leverage your resources to help something change * The ability to add antiracism practices internally that have a bigger impact than having an externally focused product or service * The importance to staying within your purview and yield the floor to those whose work and mission should be central * Ineffective ways to do ally work, burning out and arguing with people who will not change * Tweet Thread from Ijeoma Oluo * Our mission and how we are recommitting to each of the changes we see needed in therapy and therapist education
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Rachel Rodgers, Hello Seven Town Hall
Ericka Hines, DEI with Every Level Leads
Liberatory Consciousness from Barbara J Love
Ur Fascism by Umberto Eco
Tweet Thread from Ijeoma Oluo
Ijeoma Oluo, Author of So You Want to Talk About Race
Racism Scale
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Therapy as a Political Act (interview with Dr. Travis Heath)
Ally is a Verb
Let’s Talk About Race (interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT)
Defining the Therapy Movement
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Therapy as a Political Act An interview with Dr. Travis Heath, PhD, regarding the myth that therapists can remain neutral and be considered not “political”. Curt and Katie talk with Travis about how he perceives effective therapy and how to interrogate the ways in which people interact within the systems where they live and work (and what they consider to be absolute truths). We also look at decolonizing therapy and honoring preferred, culturally relevant methods of healing. Finally, we look at being a therapist (and especially a BIPOC therapist) during this time – the ways we can support each other and the opportunities we have to impact real change with our clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Travis Heath, PhD Travis Heath is an Associate Professor of Psychology at Metropolitan State University of Denver. He has worked in Los Angeles, California and is currently a licensed psychologist practicing in Denver, Colorado. The work he has been focused on includes shifting from a multicultural approach to counseling to one of cultural democracy that invites people to heal in mediums that are culturally near. Writing he has contributed to has focused on the use of rap music in narrative therapy, working with persons entangled in the criminal justice system in ways that maintain their dignity, narrative practice stories as pedagogy, a co-created questioning practice called reunion questions, and community healing strategies. He is currently co-authoring the first book on Contemporary Narrative Therapy with David Epston. His practice has been apprenticed by David Epston, substantially influenced by the work of Makungu Akinyela, and inspired by collaborators such as marcela polanco, Tom Carlson, Sasha Pilkington, and Kay Ingamells. He has been fortunate enough to run workshops and speak about his work in Australia, Canada, Denmark, Hong Kong, India, New Zealand, Norway, United Kingdom, and United States.
In this episode we talk about: * Travis’s personal history and its relevance to the current conversation * Therapy as a political act * How neutrality fits into the idea of politics-free therapy – “Neutrality is a political position” * Narrative therapy’s role in anti-racism * Interrogating systems at play in clients’ decision-making * Challenging assumptions and “absolute truths” * How therapists are impacted by the stories and perspectives of their clients * How to manage clients who have held positions that are threatening to you as an individual * The systems perspective on how people behave and how systems shape their beliefs * The place for antiracism work within therapy * “We don’t need more social justice theories; we’ve got many of those. We need more social justice practices” * A framework to carry social justice in therapy beyond the current news cycle * The problem with multicultural counseling * Decolonizing therapy – looking at how to restore culturally relevant methods of healing * The problem with CBT for non-Eurocentric clients * Preferred mediums of healing and cultural democracy * The mediocracy of typical therapy prescriptions * Elevating the knowledge of the other * Expertise in asking the right questions and elevating the expertise of the other * Co-creation of tools and strategies * The liberating effect of asking your client for their inherent knowledge * Where to use your role as expert * The benefit of mentorship and apprenticeship in learning to be a therapist * The lack of mentorship within the current educational system for therapists * How to do antiracist supervision and training for therapists * “In this field we do far too much telling and not enough showing” * The idea that we can apprentice the whole person of the therapist * “Theory doesn’t do therapy. Therapy does therapy.” * What is considered therapy and what it actually can be * Community work as the work of therapy * The exhaustion of being a BIPOC therapist right now * The importance of support and community for therapists
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Dr. Travis Heath on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrTravisHeath
Contacting Dr. Travis Heath PhD: heatht@msudenver.edu
marcela polanco: https://education.sdsu.edu/directory/csp/mft/mft-core/marcela-polanco
Makungu Akinyela: https://www.drmakungu.com/
Vikki Reynolds: https://vikkireynolds.ca/
Navid Zamani: http://www.navidzamani.com/
David Epston: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Epston
Relevant Episodes: Is CBT Crap?
Ally is a Verb
The Person of the Therapist
Be a Better Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Ally is a Verb Curt and Katie chat about how to engage in ally work. We look at white fragility, helpful and harmful responses during times of crisis, and how to leverage privilege appropriately to work to address systemic racism and oppression. We encourage people to step beyond keyboard warriorship and focusing on ourselves to taking actions that can impact real change.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Latest incidences of systemic oppression (George Floyd, Christian Cooper) and how they have impacted the current conversations about racism, ally work, and therapy * White Fragility and how it can show up during times of crisis * How white women in distress distract * ALLY (from Kayla Reed): + A- always center the impacted + L- listen & learn from those who live in the oppression + L- leverage your privilege + Y-yield the floor * The need to identify positive ways to do anti-racist, ally work * Assessing your motivation to say things publicly * The lure of taking actions that only check a box or make us feel better * Discomfort and pain that we must sit in, if we’re going to really do the work * What can actually move the needle for systemic change * Amplifying voices versus shifting the focus or stepping in front of people who need to be heard * Bullying and bystanders * Learning and researching on our own, versus requiring clinicians of color to do the emotional labor of teaching us * Myths of being an ally * Therapists who are invested in the status quo and the white washing that happens when those types of comments are erased * The importance of acknowledging history (including racism) and whiteness * The difference between “all racists are bad people” and we are in a racist system and thus are all racist * The damage done when denying the past, gaslighting communities of color * Showing up as a white therapist with a client who is in a marginalized community * The need for cultural humility and awareness of what is going on * Recognizing reality and how we cannot just “cope” hard enough to make this goes away * Crisis management when you are working with risk factors (suicidality, homicidality, abuse) and the importance to understand the additional risk calling police or other government agencies on your clients within the black community * Alternatives for managing risk, looking at community resources * The challenges of doing ally work as a therapist * The slow and arduous process of treating overtly racist clients: listening to fears and perspective
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice Running a private practice is rewarding, but it can also be demanding. SimplePractice changes that. This practice management solution helps you focus on what's most important—your clients—by simplifying the business side of private practice like billing and scheduling.
More than 60,000 professionals use SimplePractice —the leading EHR platform for private practitioners everywhere – to power telehealth sessions, schedule appointments, file insurance claims, communicate with clients, and so much more—all on one HIPAA-compliant platform.
Get your first 2 months of SimplePractice for the price of one when you sign up for an account today. This exclusive offer is valid for new customers only.
Go to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined to learn more.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
White Fragility by Robin J. DiAngelo
ALLY Tweet from Kayla Reed
Kayla Reed’s Twitter Profile
5 Racist Anti-Racist Responses “Good” White Women Give to Viral Posts
75 Things White People Can Do for Racial Justice
How to be an Antiracist by Ibram X. Kendi
17 Myths About Being a Good Ally
Anti Racism On Ramp Resource Page
Ce Anderson
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Let’s Talk About Race
Let’s Talk About Race Again
Black Mental Health
Privileged and Biased
The Person of the Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Authentic Side Hustles An interview with Annie Schuessler about when and how to consider adding a business outside the therapy room. Curt and Katie explore with Annie about how someone can actually succeed in developing a side hustle, looking at the characteristics of successful entrepreneurs and effective products and services.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Annie Schuessler, MFT, Rebel Therapist Annie Schuessler is a business coach and the host of the podcast Rebel Therapist® where she shares stories of people creating unique and innovative businesses. She’s been a therapist in private practice for 20 years, and a business coach for over 10 years. Her mission is to help people trained as therapists create and launch exceptional programs beyond the therapy room. She lives in San Francisco with her wife and two children. When she’s not recording a podcast or working with her clients, you can find her trying to convince her family to play Catan with her. You can find her resources at rebeltherapist.me.
In this episode we talk about: * The mistakes therapists make in developing their side hustles * Why it doesn’t make sense to go for passive income right away * The importance of creativity and passion for the impact you want to have * The role burnout should (or should not) play in what you decide to do * Characteristics of successful entrepreneurs * Why you need grit and perseverance * The problem with cookie cutter programs or programs from people one step ahead of you * Where to focus and how to initially develop your offering * The need for identifying what you have to offer and how to develop authority * Owning your experience and standing out * Selling a process versus expert information * The challenges of marketing and some ideas about how to address these challenges * Authentic relational approach for therapists turned coaches * The considerations for starting another business now during the COVID pandemic and the global economic crisis * Why fluff won’t sell, especially now * Creation of free resources to provide value to your community * The risk of repurposing others’ work for your own * The need to articulate your unique viewpoint, understand your mission and purpose * The fear of being bold and standing out
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Rebel Therapist
Rebel Therapist Podcast
Relevant Episodes: Creating Opportunities
Clinical Marketing
Beyond Selling the Couch
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined Conferences
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Shared Traumatic Experiences Curt and Katie chat about the potential that clients will take care of us because we’re all going through the global pandemic. We look at the humanization and boundary shifts that can happen. We also talk about how to handle the nuance of the changes in the therapeutic relationship to help sustain stronger clinical efficacy.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How clients may become more aware of their therapist’s own challenges due to the pandemic * Clients testing to see if we have capacity to manage what is happening AND their issues as well * The reality of the additional disclosure that is happening with telehealth * How we’re managing the conversations about the human experience, the unique situations we’re facing, and our clients’ concerns * The disinhibition effect for both clients and therapists via telehealth * Discussions about availability and flexibility with clients * Research on Shared Traumatic Experiences * Boundary shifts that need to be discussed * How to handle the shifts in the relationship with nuance * The need for therapists to take care of themselves – more deliberately and differently than we might have done prior to the pandemic * The added stressors that are being put on therapists that our clients are likely aware of * The importance of not pathologizing our clients wanting to take care of us during this time * The positives for telehealth and some of the boundary shifts * The importance of community for therapists right now * Acknowledging that therapists who have stayed in the office require support as well * Risk factors for therapists who wear different hats and have different projects
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Article by Lori Gottlieb in the Atlantic
Article about the Disinhibition Effect
Article: Therapeutic Intervention in a Continuous Shared Traumatic Reality: An Example from the Israeli–Palestinian Conflict
Article: Negative consequences of helping and the length of work experience
Article: Shared Traumatic Reality and Boundary Theory: How Mental Health Professionals Cope With the Home/Work Conflict During Continuous Security Threats
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: The Brand Called You
Recession-Proofing Your Practice
Systems of Self-Care
Impaired Therapists
Trauma Informed Work Place
The Mental Load of Therapists
Vulnerability, the News, and You
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
The Person of the Therapist An interview with Dr. Harry Aponte about challenging the idea that therapists can be blank screens or “surgeons.” We talk with Dr. Aponte about the importance of the self of the therapist in creating the relationship and doing effective clinical work. We also look into his Person of the Therapist Training and much of his body of work supporting therapists as well as communities of color.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Harry J. Aponte, HPhD, MSW, LCSW, LMFT Dr. Harry J. Aponte, HPhD, MSW, LCSW, LMFT, is a family therapist known for his writings and workshops on the person of the therapist, spirituality in therapy, therapy with disadvantaged and culturally diverse families, and structural family therapy. Dr. Aponte was a staff member and teacher of family therapy at the Menninger Clinic, and subsequently Director of the Philadelphia Child Guidance Center. Currently, Dr. Aponte is clinical associate professor in the Couple & Family Therapy Program of Drexel University in Philadelphia. He has a private practice in Philadelphia, and conducts training and workshops throughout the country and abroad.
Dr. Aponte published Bread & Spirit through Norton, a book that speaks to therapy with today’s poor in the context of ethnicity, culture and spirituality.
Dr. Aponte and Dr. Karni Kissil have edited a book entitled The Person of the Therapist Training Model: Mastering the Use of Self, published by Routledge (2016).
In this episode we talk about: * Aponte’s story, including his work with Salvador Minuchin, Virginia Satir, Murray Bowen * Debunking the idea that therapists act as surgeons and that clients from marginalized communities “don’t talk.” * Aponte’s racial background interacting with the work that he did * The reasons he was asked so frequently asked to work with families in poverty-stricken areas * How the ideas in The Person of the Therapist came to be * Bringing mental health into communities of color * Social justice and advocacy within the therapist’s purview * Working with Jim Lester, an activist in Philadelphia, to bridge the gap between education, mental health services for kids who were truant * The ideas of structural therapy being translated into the communities * The difference of lived experience in bringing oneself into the therapeutic relationship * The Person of the Therapist training at Drexel University * How Harry’s personal experiences continue to impact his work * What is missing in most clinical training * The use of self in therapy * The importance of knowing yourself before you become a therapist * The idea that you must also know your hang ups and challenges and what you’ll be bringing into the room, so you can recognize and be “with” your clients * “Therapy is not a conversation; it is an experience.” – Dr. Harry Aponte * The vulnerability of being a therapist and the need to do work your work early in your training * The importance of doing versus reading about what should be done * Reasons that understanding yourself and bringing yourself into room provides better therapy
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Family Therapy Pioneer Salvador Minuchin on the Therapist’s Self (article in Psychotherapy Networker)
The Person of the Therapist Training Model: Mastering the Use of Self (book)
Relevant Episodes: How to BE a Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Returning to the Office Curt and Katie chat about the considerations for reopening offices closed during shelter in place orders. We talk through the specific logistical, clinical, and legal and ethical elements of the decision-making process for those who shifted to telehealth in response to the pandemic.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The importance of therapists assessing their own needs prior to returning to in-person work * The proposed phased reopening of California * The unique elements of different practices that might impact your timing (logistics, populations treated, coordination with other clinicians in the same space, etc.) * Clinical considerations for how therapy is delivered during this time * The challenge of managing a waiting room * Ideas how to apply recommendations from the CDC or WHO to a therapy office * Systems to put into place, policies to consider (especially related to employees and wage replacement for ill workers) * How to communicate with your clients * The need to identify what boundaries you will hold and how you will address them clinically * The ability to have these conversations ahead of time, the additional time you can use to move back to the office, if you decide to * Telehealth insurance reimbursement – ideas and advocacy recommendations * Shortening the work week, using your office for as few days as possible, staggering shifts in group practices * Removing items that don’t need to be in the waiting room or any other spaces * ADA accessibility that decreases contact with door knobs * Cleaning protocols * HEPA filters – mixed feedback and things to think about * Requirements for clinicians and clients to stay home if sick, to wear a mask if entering the building * Waiving late cancel fees for illness, or strong recommendations for shifting to telehealth in those situations * Potential liability if taking temperatures of clients, other ideas, etc. * Physical distancing, keeping telehealth going when possible, contactless sessions * Tracing contacts – the ability (or mandate) to disclose who has come to your office * Updating your office policies and consents * Strategically planning for reopening an office
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Phases for Reopening California
CDC Resource Page
Recommendations from CDC
CDC Guidance on Cleaning and Disinfecting
Recommendations from WHO
Recommendations from OSHA
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: The Viral Episode
Confidential Communications
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the concern that therapists will be gaslit as therapist workforce takes on the next epidemic – the mental health pandemic. We discuss how mental health workers are seen as essential, but are not paid or are underpaid. We dig into the dangerous “Hero Narrative” and its specific impacts on the health and livelihood. We also provide some calls to action to move our profession in the right direction, especially during these times.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The concern that mental health workers are seen as essential, but are often not paid * The stagnation of wages already present in our profession * The opportunity to stand up and improve our profession * The call for volunteers that has already started * The challenge of considering volunteerism relative to the needs of your clients and your family * The other opportunities to give back and serve clients for free and increase access to mental health services * The public demonization of therapists pushing back on requests to provide free mental health services * The danger of the Hero Narrative * The specific impact of the feminization of caring and helping professions * The fallacy of “getting paid” in supervised hours * How this work is like jumping on a grenade for the greater good (and you can only jump on one grenade) * Ways to pull out the idea that “Sacrificing” yourself is necessary or even acceptable as a therapist – looking at ourselves as the instruments of change requiring us to protect ourselves * Call to Action – the need to stand up for self-protection, refrain from taking unpaid positions, positions without proper protections, and from taking supervisory positions that support these types of organizations * Call to Action – Contacting legislators to support only legislation that provides protections for the therapists, demand language that only provides funding to agencies that already pay their workers * Call to Action – Pressure professional organizations to support and write these types of bills * The importance of asking for a living wage for mental health workers * How to give back and volunteer responsibly and thoughtfully
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined So…you’re wondering how to make it through this. Worried about finances, what’s next, how to keep doing your best therapy, continued adjusting to telehealth, etc. Now, more than ever, it may be worth it to invest in your clinical and business decisions to improve your practice. We recognize that getting help is better than going at it alone.
During overwhelming or uncertain times (like these) it can be especially helpful to seek supervision or consultation. When you can’t get out of your own panic or concrete thinking, we’d like to be your thinking partner. But we know that money is uncertain, so we’re offering our 50-minute-hour at half price. That’s right - a consultation with Curt or Katie (while we’re stuck in quarantine) for only $100.
As you know, Curt and Katie have worked in a lot of different mental health settings, so we can advise on legal and ethical issues, navigating your career, clinical supervision, making decisions in your business, and a whole lot more.
Check out our offerings and sign up at therapyreimagined.com/consultation. Use the coupon code CAREPACKAGE at check out for your $100 discount*.
*Subject to availability and may be changed without notice.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Curt’s Blog: Gaslighting the Mental Health Worker Force
The Medium Article: Prepare for the Ultimate Gaslighting
Ben Caldwell’s Article: Why Good Therapists Suffer from Exploitation
Contacting Legislators:
Find your Rep: https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative
Senate: https://www.senate.gov/senators/index.htm
Tips for talking to legislators: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-recovery-coach/201905/how-talk-legislators-about-mental-health-issues
Therapy Reimagined 2020:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: In it for the Money?
Toxic Work Environments
A Living Wage for Prelicensees
Making Access More Affordable
Who Gets to Have Therapy?
Modern Therapists Strike Back
Striking for the Future of Mental Healthcare
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Jarred Bolen, Technical Account Manager at Hushmail, about how to appropriately comply with HIPAA in how you communicate with your clients. Curt and Katie talk with Jarrod about encryption, security considerations, and how (and why) to create a HIPAA compliant office, even now.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jarred Bolen, Technical Account Manager, Hushmail Jarred Bolen joined Hushmail in 2016 with over five years of support experience for software and telecommunications companies and a longtime interest in internet security. Starting in Customer Care, he moved to the Sales team as a Technical Account Manager in 2019, and now helps new Hushmail customers connect with their clients and colleagues.
In this episode we talk about: * How to use email (even your normal email) in a HIPAA compliant manner * The benefits of encryption, what it is, and types of encryption available * Going beyond what is required to address the ethics of keeping your client’s information safe * Who is required to be HIPAA compliant, e.g., covered entities * The argument against the complaint that it is an inconvenience to clients to remain compliant * The consideration related what is (or is not) Protected Health Information (PHI) * How to create a HIPAA-compliant office * The importance of documentation of your processes * Potential legislation asking for back doors into encrypted services – concerns and potential risks * Staying up-to-date with updates within the tech sector * Setting yourself up for success from the beginning (even if you start this type of secure communication during the global pandemic) * What is included in Hushmail service, how Hushmail has evolved from the beginning
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined So…you’re wondering how to make it through this. Worried about finances, what’s next, how to keep doing your best therapy, continued adjusting to telehealth, etc. Now, more than ever, it may be worth it to invest in your clinical and business decisions to improve your practice. We recognize that getting help is better than going at it alone.
During overwhelming or uncertain times (like these) it can be especially helpful to seek supervision or consultation. When you can’t get out of your own panic or concrete thinking, we’d like to be your thinking partner. But we know that money is uncertain, so we’re offering our 50-minute-hour at half price. That’s right - a consultation with Curt or Katie (while we’re stuck in quarantine) for only $100.
As you know, Curt and Katie have worked in a lot of different mental health settings, so we can advise on legal and ethical issues, navigating your career, clinical supervision, making decisions in your business, and a whole lot more.
Check out our offerings and sign up at therapyreimagined.com/consultation. Use the coupon code CAREPACKAGE at check out for your $100 discount*.
*Subject to availability and may be changed without notice.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Special offer from Hushmail: Hushmail is a secure email, web form, and e-signature service that lets you send and receive private, encrypted emails, attachments, and web forms to and from anyone, even people who don't use Hushmail. With easy-to-use webmail, a secure message center, drag-and-drop form builder, and iPhone app, there's no complicated installation. Just sign up and start sending securely. Our Healthcare plans come configured for HIPAA compliance, and our legally binding e-signatures comply with ESIGN and UETA.
New Hushmail for Healthcare customers who sign up through Therapy Reimagined receive a 10 percent lifetime discount!
HHS Risk Assessment
Relevant Episodes: Clinical versus Business Decisions
Our Take on Texts
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Jarred Bolen, Technical Account Manager at Hushmail, about how to appropriately comply with HIPAA in how you communicate with your clients. Curt and Katie talk with Jarrod about encryption, security considerations, and how (and why) to create a HIPAA compliant office, even now.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jarred Bolen, Technical Account Manager, Hushmail Jarred Bolen joined Hushmail in 2016 with over five years of support experience for software and telecommunications companies and a longtime interest in internet security. Starting in Customer Care, he moved to the Sales team as a Technical Account Manager in 2019, and now helps new Hushmail customers connect with their clients and colleagues.
In this episode we talk about: * How to use email (even your normal email) in a HIPAA compliant manner * The benefits of encryption, what it is, and types of encryption available * Going beyond what is required to address the ethics of keeping your client’s information safe * Who is required to be HIPAA compliant, e.g., covered entities * The argument against the complaint that it is an inconvenience to clients to remain compliant * The consideration related what is (or is not) Protected Health Information (PHI) * How to create a HIPAA-compliant office * The importance of documentation of your processes * Potential legislation asking for back doors into encrypted services – concerns and potential risks * Staying up-to-date with updates within the tech sector * Setting yourself up for success from the beginning (even if you start this type of secure communication during the global pandemic) * What is included in Hushmail service, how Hushmail has evolved from the beginning
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined So…you’re wondering how to make it through this. Worried about finances, what’s next, how to keep doing your best therapy, continued adjusting to telehealth, etc. Now, more than ever, it may be worth it to invest in your clinical and business decisions to improve your practice. We recognize that getting help is better than going at it alone.
During overwhelming or uncertain times (like these) it can be especially helpful to seek supervision or consultation. When you can’t get out of your own panic or concrete thinking, we’d like to be your thinking partner. But we know that money is uncertain, so we’re offering our 50-minute-hour at half price. That’s right - a consultation with Curt or Katie (while we’re stuck in quarantine) for only $100.
As you know, Curt and Katie have worked in a lot of different mental health settings, so we can advise on legal and ethical issues, navigating your career, clinical supervision, making decisions in your business, and a whole lot more.
Check out our offerings and sign up at therapyreimagined.com/consultation. Use the coupon code CAREPACKAGE at check out for your $100 discount*.
*Subject to availability and may be changed without notice.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Special offer from Hushmail: Hushmail is a secure email, web form, and e-signature service that lets you send and receive private, encrypted emails, attachments, and web forms to and from anyone, even people who don't use Hushmail. With easy-to-use webmail, a secure message center, drag-and-drop form builder, and iPhone app, there's no complicated installation. Just sign up and start sending securely. Our Healthcare plans come configured for HIPAA compliance, and our legally binding e-signatures comply with ESIGN and UETA.
New Hushmail for Healthcare customers who sign up through Therapy Reimagined receive a 10 percent lifetime discount!
HHS Risk Assessment
Relevant Episodes: Clinical versus Business Decisions
Our Take on Texts
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the updates to the Ethics Code for CAMFT that was approved in December, 2019. We talk about the new guidance on testimonials, marketing to each other’s clients, and duplication of services. We look at what we can do and what we probably still shouldn’t do.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT) Code of Ethics Update * Solicitation of testimonials – clarifying who you can ask for testimonials * Re-evaluating clients, looking at how they have their own agency and autonomy * Defining “undue influence,” seeking legal definition to aid the understanding what should be considered within the ethics code change * Looking at how the perceived or actual power differential impact can be considered * Even if we can, should we solicit testimonials? * Appropriate tactics for asking for testimonials * Looking at antitrust and other reasons for these changes * Why we can now compete for each other’s clients * How we can see each other’s clients * Do what makes sense and don’t be a jerk
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined So…you’re wondering how to make it through this. Worried about finances, what’s next, how to keep doing your best therapy, continued adjusting to telehealth, etc. Now, more than ever, it may be worth it to invest in your clinical and business decisions to improve your practice. We recognize that getting help is better than going at it alone.
During overwhelming or uncertain times (like these) it can be especially helpful to seek supervision or consultation. When you can’t get out of your own panic or concrete thinking, we’d like to be your thinking partner. But we know that money is uncertain, so we’re offering our 50-minute-hour at half price. That’s right - a consultation with Curt or Katie (while we’re stuck in quarantine) for only $100.
As you know, Curt and Katie have worked in a lot of different mental health settings, so we can advise on legal and ethical issues, navigating your career, clinical supervision, making decisions in your business, and a whole lot more.
Check out our offerings and sign up at therapyreimagined.com/consultation. Use the coupon code CAREPACKAGE at check out for your $100 discount*.
*Subject to availability and may be changed without notice.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Published CAMFT Code of Ethics
SimplePractice Learning course: New CAMFT Code of Ethics
California WIC Code: Defining Undue Influence
FTC decision – National Music Teacher’s Association Decision regarding restricting trade
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Managing Your Online Reputation
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Antitrust for Therapists
That’s Unethical!
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Episode 149: Treating First Responders
An interview with Yael Shuman, LMFT, on the unique challenges that First Responders face and treatment considerations. Curt and Katie talk with Yael about what therapists get wrong working with first responders, especially when therapists are unable to keep their stuff together when these clients disclose their traumatic experiences. We look at resources, resilience, and preparing for trauma (rather than waiting for it to occur).
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Yael Shuman, Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, EMDR and EA-EMDR trained Yael Shuman, is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist with more than 25 years’ experience working with individuals, couples, and organizations. Yael is passionate about helping people to live a fulfilling life. Trauma interrupts life by creating a stuck place that is uncomfortable and distressing. Without the right knowledge and skills, you cannot move beyond the distress. With skills development in emotional stability and resiliency, people can reduce the impact of a traumatic situation and have improved coping skills to help them move forward and process the trauma from distress to fulfillment.
She maintains a private practice in Denver, Colorado. She has experience in PTSD/ trauma, and specializes with Military and Veteran and First Responders issues, and how to express the experiences through communication. Her practice includes providing EMDR for trauma treatment, supervises interns, and working with life issues including developing healthy relationships, stress management, anxiety, depression (including PPD) and divorce recovery. It is well researched that people living with trauma are likely to experience more of these life issues and, if they are left unaddressed, then further disruption in life is likely to occur. Yael has years of experience and believes it is incredibly important to assist clients with emotional stability, for them to feel safe and secure, before processing their trauma.
Prior to her work as a Marriage & Family Therapist, Mrs. Shuman spent 5 years working with Los Angeles County Child Protective Services (Family Preservation Unit) and foster care. She holds a Master’s Degree in Marriage & Family Therapy from California Family Study Center and a Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology from California State University Northridge. She is trained in EMDR and Equine-assisted EMDR. Additionally, she is a member of the American Association for Marriage & Family Therapists, EMDRIA, and an AAMFT Approved Supervisor.
In this episode we talk about: * Unique challenges of working with First Responders and the unique culture * Training that first responders typically get (and don’t get) * The lack of training on trauma responses and developing resilience * The culture of silence related to first responders – they don’t report distress or trauma responses – you can’t take it, you’re broken * The risk of first responders who die by suicide * The impacts of lack of therapist training and experience on individual clients * The challenge of holding space for traumatic experiences of first responders * The disturbing events that first responders regularly experience * A perspective on how to interact with trauma with our clients * The importance of specific training on working with first responders * Always assess for trauma, suicidal ideation, and substance abuse very specifically * The difficulty of turning off hypervigilance, but lack of communication from work off the clock * The tendency to protect, even off the clock in interpersonal interactions * The first responder client tendency to take care of their therapist * What therapists typically get wrong in working with first responders * The protective factors of resiliency, neuroplasticity * Resourcing and mindfulness, skills building (phase 2 EMDR) * Attunement and compartmentalization that can be used during an on-going situation (container, dissociation, parts work) * The importance of stabilization and skills to cope in the moment * Pre-treating expected trauma * Prevention training
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined So…you’re wondering how to make it through this. Worried about finances, what’s next, how to keep doing your best therapy, continued adjusting to telehealth, etc. Now, more than ever, it may be worth it to invest in your clinical and business decisions to improve your practice. We recognize that getting help is better than going at it alone.
During overwhelming or uncertain times (like these) it can be especially helpful to seek supervision or consultation. When you can’t get out of your own panic or concrete thinking, we’d like to be your thinking partner. But we know that money is uncertain, so we’re offering our 50-minute-hour at half price. That’s right - a consultation with Curt or Katie (while we’re stuck in quarantine) for only $100.
As you know, Curt and Katie have worked in a lot of different mental health settings, so we can advise on legal and ethical issues, navigating your career, clinical supervision, making decisions in your business, and a whole lot more.
Check out our offerings and sign up at therapyreimagined.com/consultation. Use the coupon code CAREPACKAGE at check out for your $100 discount*.
*Subject to availability and may be changed without notice.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Yael’s Website: Shuman Psychotherapy
Yael Shuman’s Trauma Preparedness Training
Yael’s email: yshuman at shumanpsychotherapy.com
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Preventing Client Suicide
Therapist Suicide
Responding to Mass Shootings
Death, Dying, and Grief
Managing Vicarious Trauma
Are You Sure You’re a Specialist?
Compassion Fatigue
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Dr. Ben Caldwell about the rapidly changing directives during the COVID-19 pandemic. Curt and Katie interview Ben about telehealth, HIPAA, and all of the efforts of continuity of care during quarantine, shelter-in-place orders. We look at legal, ethical, and clinical responsibilities during these uncertain times.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Benjamin Caldwell, PsyD, LMFT Benjamin Caldwell, PsyD is a California Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (#42723) and the Education and Director for SimplePractice Learning. He currently serves as adjunct faculty for California Statue University Northridge in Los Angeles. He has taught at the graduate level for more than 15 years, primarily in Law and Ethics, and has written and trained extensively on ethical applications in mental health care. In addition to serving a three-year term on the AAMFT Ethics Committee, Dr. Caldwell served as the Chair of the Legislative and Advocacy Committee for AAMFT-California for 10 years. He served as Editor for the Users Guide to the 2015 AAMFT Code of Ethics and is the author for several books, including Saving Psychotherapy and Basics of California Law for LMFTS, LPCCs, and LCSWs.
In this episode we talk about: * How to identify what to do and how to respond to all the changing instructions from officials about practicing therapy during these times * The debate around telehealth versus in person treatment * The legal and ethical responsibilities therapists hold regarding continuity of care * Client opt-in and preference, fears about client abandonment * The myth that you are required to keep seeing clients no matter what * The moral aspect of choices made during treatment, especially during uncertain times like these * Clinical considerations for clients who are not appropriate for telehealth * The importance of identifying and managing all types of risks during these times * The fallacy that you can now practice across state lines without any restrictions * The possibilities for seeing clients who have returned home to other states, the reasonable argument for continuity of care * Advice for implementing telehealth quickly, including choosing a HIPAA compliant platform * The benefits of complying with telehealth training requirements * Misinformation that can confuse folks within the Facebook Therapist Groups * The challenges that licensing boards are facing related to testing and licensing delays and related laws or regulations * Professional wills – basic requirements and legal/ethical responsibilities * Connecting with clients, human to human related to illness and emergency * The growing importance of communication in this new era of health awareness * The requirements for “essential workers”
Our Generous Sponsor: GreenOak Accounting You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–helping people–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in increasing the profit of private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just to get some time back for yourself, if you’re behind on your books or ready to implement Profit First, or need someone on your financial team who really understands private practice and can help your business grow, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a 100% free no-obligation consultation today or sign up for 5 days of profit-boosting emails.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Saving Psychotherapy by Dr. Ben Caldwell
SimplePractice Platform (has a telehealth add-on option)
SimplePractice free template for a Professional Will
SimplePractice Learning (SPL)
SPL telehealth legal and ethical training (free for a limited time)
SPL HIPAA for Mental Health Professionals course
SPL Telehealth Getting Started course
SPL California Telehealth Law course
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Ben’s previous episode: The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how to prepare for economic uncertainty as one of the ripple effects from COVID-19. We talk about practical suggestions of what you can do now to weather a recession as well as continue forward with the practice you’d like to build.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The economic uncertainty as a ripple effect from COVID-19 * Looking at the research after the Great Recession * The importance of self-assessment and business-assessment, being thoughtful about the decisions you make about your business * Moving beyond scrambling to telehealth into changes you want to incorporate longer-term * How to prepare for a changing world * How critical cash flow can be during these times * Tightening your financial practices (e.g., timely invoicing and charging credit cards, billing insurance, collecting copays) * Focusing on profit, not growing your business * Looking at your numbers (revenue, expenses, profit) * How to be agile without taking on too much risk * Understanding what you do that is the highest value offering (highest profit margin) and do more of that – maximizing your most profitable services * Pay off and minimize debt, cutting costs to improve financial position * Setting yourself with a rainy-day fund * Navigating to weather uncertainty * Exploring different business models that are focused on need versus luxury * Being intentional with how you adjust offerings and how you are flexible in your practice * Therapists’ requirement to manage their own needs (in therapy or otherwise) to sustain their therapy practice – clients need guidance and feel like they are getting what they are paying for * Pay attention to your numbers to continue monitoring what you need to do * The importance of the customer experience and maintaining your current clients * Communicating clearly with your clients and prospects * How to increase the quality of your offerings to sustain current clients and get new ones * Plan for the long-term of your practice
Our Generous Sponsor: GreenOak Accounting You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–helping people–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in increasing the profit of private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just to get some time back for yourself, if you’re behind on your books or ready to implement Profit First, or need someone on your financial team who really understands private practice and can help your business grow, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a 100% free no-obligation consultation today or sign up for 5 days of profit-boosting emails.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Curt’s Blog Post: Mental Health Workers After COVID-19
Article: Growth in Spending on and Use of Services for Mental and Substance Use Disorders After the Great Recession Among Individuals With Private Insurance (Psychiatric Services, May 2016)
Lynn Grodsky Psychotherapy Networker article: Recession Proofing Mantras
US Chamber of Commerce Article: Worried About A Recession? Do These 5 Things Now
NY Taxi Cab Drivers study
Saving Psychotherapy by Dr. Ben Caldwell
Forbes: The Best Business Strategy for Surviving a Recession?
Harvard Business Review: How to Survive a Recession and Thrive Afterward
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Barbara Griswold, LMFT: Busting Insurance Myths
Michael Blumberg, LCPC: Making Access More Affordable
Bad Business Practices
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the idea that burnout and depression could actually be the same thing. We look at how stigma and a sense of superiority may inhibit clinicians from reporting that they’re actually experiencing depression rather than “burnout.”
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The blog article that sparked the conversation about why doctors don’t get depressed * The idea that burnout and depression may be the same thing * The functionality of diagnosis in treatment and how it impacts what one is diagnosed * The definitions of burnout and depression and the different schools of thought * The place of elitism both in the definition and the treatment of burnout * A sense of superiority and or a feeling of higher level on the hierarchy leading to less burnout and depression * Katie’s ideas around simple burnout or complicated burnout and the overuse of that word * Where the ideas around burnout actually came from and whether it is a sound foundation * The medical model divorcing depression from situational factors * The concern that pop psychology may have invaded the space * The idea that when people have sought the situation that has led to burnout or depression – there is an existential crisis * The rationale that it is “worth it” because we have sacrificed to move forward in our career * Tips from Freudenberger (who introduced the concept of Burnout) on how to avoid or treat burnout: hiring, work culture, thoughtfulness about work and work day, breaks and vacations, staff development and feeling time, sharing experiences, time off to learn, adequate staffing, balance of physical exercise
Our Generous Sponsor: GreenOak Accounting You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–helping people–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in increasing the profit of private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just to get some time back for yourself, if you’re behind on your books or ready to implement Profit First, or need someone on your financial team who really understands private practice and can help your business grow, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a 100% free no-obligation consultation today or sign up for 5 days of profit-boosting emails.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The Fugitive Psychiatrist Article
Katie’s concept Sacrificial Helping Syndrome
Brenninkmeijer, V., Van Yperen, N. W. & Buunk, A. P. in Personality and Individual Differences: Burnout and depression are not identical twins: is decline of superiority a distinguishing feature?
Maslach’s Burnout Inventory
Herbert Freudenberger 1974: Staff Burnout
Freudenberger’s books:
Burnout: The high cost of high achievement
Women's Burnout: For the Woman Who's Made Commitments to Everyone But Herself
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Conference: Speakers!!
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Self-Care, Self-Compassion, and Self-Awareness for Therapists
Compassion Fatigue
Managing Vicarious Trauma
The Danger of Poor Self-Care as a Therapist
Toxic Work Environments
All Kinds of Burned Out
The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout System
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the Corona Virus scare. We look at how to take care of ourselves, our clients, and our businesses during the current outbreak. We also look at the mental health impacts and the legal and ethical responsibilities we have to our clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The current concerns about the Corona Virus * The impacts of the virus on therapists * How to identify our responsibilities as therapists * Info from the World Health Organization and the Center for Disease Control on COVID-19 * The reactions that we are seeing in society as mental healthcare professionals * Looking at practical steps to increase safety in your office * How to think about your cancellation policy * Incorporating telehealth into your practice * The complexity of insurance companies covering telehealth session * Xenophobia toward individuals of Asian descent, and the mental health impact on these clients * The impact on the individuals (or their caregivers) who have compromised immune systems of needing to remain home or in isolation * The legal and ethical considerations * When we can tell our clients that they must stay home and when it could be discrimination * The problems with self-quarantines * The importance of therapists refraining from contributing to the anxiety and sharing accurate information from reputable sources
Our Generous Sponsor: GreenOak Accounting You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–helping people–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in increasing the profit of private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just to get some time back for yourself, if you’re behind on your books or ready to implement Profit First, or need someone on your financial team who really understands private practice and can help your business grow, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a 100% free no-obligation consultation today or sign up for 5 days of profit-boosting emails.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
The World Health Organization Corona Virus Information
The Center for Disease Control Corona Virus Information
Facebook Group: Online Therapists (They have a spreadsheet with information on different insurance companies and how they cover telehealth)
SimplePractice Telehealth Information
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Managing Client Cancellations
Busting Insurance Myths
Millennials and Telehealth
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Dr. Jamie Marich on how to navigate through dissociation in the therapy room. Curt and Katie interview Jamie about her own experiences with dissociation and what she does to cope as a dissociative professional. We discuss the importance of mindfulness and other strategies to take care of ourselves as well as treating dissociative clients. We also chat about how to navigate professional organizations as someone who likes to challenge the status quo.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jamie Marich, Ph.D., LPCC-S, LICDC-CS, REAT, RYT-200, RMT Jamie Marich, Ph.D., LPCC-S, LICDC-CS, REAT, RYT-200, RMT travels internationally speaking on topics related to EMDR therapy, trauma, addiction, expressive arts and mindfulness while maintaining a private practice in her home base of Warren, OH. She is the developer of the Dancing Mindfulness practice to expressive arts therapy and co-creator of the Yoga Unchained approach to trauma-informed yoga. Jamie is the author of seven books, including the popular EMDR Made Simple and EMDR Therapy and Mindfulness for Trauma Focused Care (Springer Publishing in 2018), written in collaboration with Dr. Stephen Dansiger. Her newest title, Process Not Perfection: Expressive Arts Solutions for Trauma Recovery, released in April 2019. North Atlantic Books is publishing a second and expanded edition of Trauma and the 12 Steps, due for release in the Summer of 2020.
In this episode we talk about: * Creative mindfulness * Joy in facilitating transformation * Jamie’s experience with trauma, addiction, dissociation, and how that led to her work * EMDR and “the weird stuff” that has led to improved outcomes * The power of embodied healing * Jamie coming out as being in recovery, bisexual, and struggling with dissociation * The response of other therapists to Jamie coming out as a dissociative professional * The importance of being candid to remain present and to combat the label of impaired therapist * Shame about dissociation and the difficulty therapists have in treating dissociation * How to navigate through dissociation as a therapist – we all dissociate, just at different degrees * The importance of mindfulness in combatting dissociation * Rituals and routines to ground and return to the present * Learning the models for treatment and then “breaking the rules elegantly” to innovate * How institutes develop effectively and the struggles of bringing treatment to the mainstream * Jamie’s standing up and pushing away from the mainstream – and some of the consequences * Why Jamie and Curt love EMDR
Our Generous Sponsor: GreenOak Accounting You went to school to become a therapist, not an accountant! Your time is much better spent doing what you love–helping people–and not crunching numbers. That’s where GreenOak Accounting comes in! They specialize in increasing the profit of private practices just like yours, so you can reclaim precious hours each week! If you are interested in freeing up your schedule for more clients, or just to get some time back for yourself, if you’re behind on your books or ready to implement Profit First, or need someone on your financial team who really understands private practice and can help your business grow, go to greenoakaccounting.com to schedule a 100% free no-obligation consultation today or sign up for 5 days of profit-boosting emails.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below might be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
drjamiemarich.com
Institute for Creative Mindfulness
dancingmindfulness.com
traumamadesimple.com
EMDRIA
Dr. Francine Shapiro
Relevant Episodes: Being Truly Mindful
Is CBT Crap?
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the ins and outs of intuition. We look at when you can trust your gut feelings and when you cannot. We sort through how to actually develop and use clinical intuition as well as the problems that can come into play when you do not follow the appropriate steps.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Definitions of the 4 types of intuition: mystical, spurious, inferential, wholistic * Confirmatory bias – how it can be known, but go unrecognized * How operant conditioning might be supporting your feeling of being able to trust your gut * Discounting affect (ignoring when your assumptions were wrong) * Whether or not we should pay attention to Mercury in Retrograde * The challenge of looking for evidence that both supports and challenges your assumptions * The different individual characteristics that get in the way of evaluating things appropriately * The importance of deliberate practice * The two different thinking processes described by Daniel Kahneman in Thinking Fast and Slow * The need to test our assumptions, even though it is potentially laborious or threatening * Using the scientific method * The problem with “mindbugs” like the availability heuristic and the misinformation effect in trying to actively improve our ability to assess data * Deductive intuition versus inductive intuition * Conditions required to use clinical intuition: regularity, practice, immediate feedback * Looking for things that prove you wrong, hearing and sorting through both positive and negative feedback * A danger of specialization where you fit every client into your area of focus * The left brain/right brain fallacy * When case examples or individual stories don’t honor all of the times that clinicians are wrong * Unexamined bias is a constant challenge in trying to make sure you are evaluating the actual data and not what you are expecting to see
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Glyn Brokensha – Clinical Intuition: more than rational?
Blindspot: Hidden Biases of Good People by Mahzarin R. Banaji and Anthony G. Greenwald
Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
Awakening Intuition by Terry Marks-Tarlow
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes and Blog Posts: Saying “Trust Your Gut” Is Bad Advice
Deliberate Practice episodes:
Be a Better Therapist
Finding Your Blindspots
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Carrie Wiita and Ben Fineman, MFT Trainees and the co-hosts of the Very Bad Therapy podcast. Curt and Katie interview Ben and Carrie about their experience as graduate students and mental health advocates. We look at the short-falls of the educational system as well as the mythologies that stagnate the profession. We talk about how to improve therapy and the training we receive.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Carrie Wiita and Ben Fineman, Marriage and Family Therapist Trainees and Co-Hosts of the Very Bad Therapy podcast Very Bad Therapy gives voice to the stores that begin with an exasperated "You would not believe what happened with my therapist." Weekly episodes explore real-life stories of very bad therapy experiences as hosts Caroline Wiita and Ben Fineman seek to learn from diverse guests and experts in the field who help shed light on how things could have gone better. Supported by scientific research and a mission to bring out the best in psychotherapy through discussion of its worst moments, Very Bad Therapy is a corrective emotional experience for clinicians and clients alike.
In this episode we talk about: * How Curt is responsible for Carrie and Ben meeting (and how proud he is of that fact) * What is missing in therapist education and how to look at the profession of therapy critically * What we are told when we enter into the field and what the reality actually is * How going to grad school and listening to MTSG Podcast can be super confusing * The research that says therapists do not get better with experience * The mythologies in the profession that stop us from being curious * The disappointment in the status quo and the failure to move into the cutting edge * The stagnation of the field when we have the same people talking about the same things * The inconsistency of the faculty and their ability/desire to teach graduate students in therapy * Problems with graduate programs related to the bureaucracy and misinformation * Ben Caldwell’s Saving Psychotherapy (of course) * Feedback on the Very Bad Therapy podcast (and how Carrie and Ben have taken it in) * The importance of research, grounding in laws, ethics, clinical excellence, when challenging the status quo * The willingness to make mistakes publicly and be transparent with accountability to normalize mistakes and reinforce that we are not perfect and cannot be perfect as therapists * The role of defensiveness in very bad therapy * The problem of perfectionism in the field * Minimizing risk and maximizing “joining” or developing the therapeutic relationship * How harmful the communication between therapists can be * The impact of bias on the work * How to improve your training
Our Generous Sponsor: Reasons Eating Disorder Reasons Eating Disorder Center in Los Angeles, CA provides comprehensive, personalized and gender-inclusive treatment programs for ages 12 and older. Reasons’ programs are designed to address the complexities of eating disorders and their intersection with anxiety, trauma, OCD, and substance abuse by providing each patient with a multidisciplinary team of professionals to assist in their process of healing. We offer our patients hope rooted in the belief that they are capable of living an authentic life of meaning and connectedness.
Reasons Eating Disorder Center is an innovative program founded on the belief that healing is a fundamental aspect of eating disorder treatment. We believe that eating disorders are rooted in and driven by anxiety and profound disruptions to the sufferers’ sense of self. We offer our patients hope, rooted in the belief that they are capable of living an authentic life of meaning and connectedness. Our goal is to create a culture that nurtures the integration of body and mind through the daily practice and continual reinforcing of the balancing ideas of Doing and Being.
Reasons offers highly personalized, gender-inclusive treatment for adults and adolescents. Our levels of care include Inpatient, residential, partial hospitalization, intensive outpatient and independent living. Reasons is located in the greater Los Angeles area and accepts most insurances. Please visit http://www.reasdonsedc.com for more information, or call our admissions team at 844 572-2766.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
Very Bad Therapy podcast
Very Bad Therapy Facebook page
vbtpodcast@gmail.com
Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT: Saving Psychotherapy
NPR Podcast: Hidden Brain
Relevant Episodes: Defining the Therapy Movement
Deliberate Practice episodes:
Be a Better Therapist
Finding Your Blindspots
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about structuring self-care into your business practices. We look at how to incorporate self-care best practices into the way you build your work day. We also talk about common challenges to taking this advice.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Creating a cohesive plan for self-care in all aspects of your work * Incorporating the concept of Flow into your work practices * Defining Flow – the thoughts about losing yourself or being incredibly mindful * The absence of mental load that occurs when you are doing the things that you are good at and enjoy most * Decision fatigue, spoon theory * Identifying how to set up your day strategically * Studying your energy and motivation at different times of day * The importance of rest, balancing of stress and rest to increase stamina * The times when creativity comes are not when you’re working * Working to prevent burnout, rather than manage it after it happens * Intentionally scheduling rest and rejuvenating activities * What types of rest are effective and what types of rest are ineffective * The danger of the ideas of productivity and hustle * The inefficiency of continuous running * How to structure your schedule effectively * Ritual and routine, grounding and mindfulness * Creating systems to decrease the required number of decisions you need to make each day * How the people around you elevate you or pull you down * Intentionally separating “work” from home * Closing out, decompression, and consultation
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below are affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance!
2020 Kauai Continuing Education Retreat for Therapists Hosted by CAV Academy
Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing by Daniel Pink
Peak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success by Brad Stulberg and Steve Magness
Spoon Theory
Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Sponsors
Relevant Episodes: Self-Care, Self-Compassion, and Self-Awareness for Therapists
The Danger of Poor Self-Care for Therapists
Compassion Fatigue
Therapists in Therapy
Toxic Work Environments
Managing Vicarious Trauma
The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout System
The Mental Load of Therapists
All Kinds of Burned Out
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW about therapists who become suicidal. Curt and Katie interview Norine on the risk factors that therapists face as well as how we can support each other in our community. We talk about prevention, interventions with a colleague, and how to manage when a colleague dies by suicide.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW Norine Vander Hooven is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in practice for 32 years. She specializes in trauma, anxiety, suicide prevention, and life transitions. Norine is also certified in EMDR therapy, and is in training to be an EMDR therapy consultant. She uses this to work with people with PTSD, anxiety, and traumatic life events. Norine provides clinical consultation for therapists, as well as she works with young adults and adults in her private practice. Learn more at norinevanderhooven.com
In this episode we talk about: * Following up on a previous episode, Therapist Suicide. * Looking at supervisors who have died by suicide * The lack of research and data regarding therapist suicide (both ideation and completion) * The fear and stigma about disclosing suicidal ideation and attempts for therapists * The difference between therapists and others in suicide risk * Heightened risk factors for therapists * How therapists take in the work with their clients * The isolation and lack of support that can happen with therapists * Suggestions for therapists to address suicidal thoughts, isolation, loneliness * Belonging, Burden, and Capability * The importance of community and consultation * The suggestion to be in your own therapy * Incorporating self-care even down to the small moments during the work day * How to incorporate knowledge about the challenge of the profession into our educational system * The shame therapists feel (both perceived and actual) about mental health challenges * How to support therapists who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts * How to provide therapy to therapists, incorporating conversations and assessment about suicide from the beginning, normalizing the experience and challenge of being a therapist * Supporting therapists in our community * Planning for postvention – comprehensive conversations after therapists have clients die by suicide or other big events in our colleagues’ lives * The importance of normalizing the feelings that therapists could be presenting with in consultation groups * What can we do when one of our colleagues die by suicide * The typical reactions and responses from colleagues, clients, and community members * Preparing to have a conversation with a client whose therapist has died by suicide * How to communicate about the death in the therapist community * The importance of a therapist will for all therapists, and supervisors
Our Generous Sponsor: Reasons Eating Disorder Reasons Eating Disorder Center in Los Angeles, CA provides comprehensive, personalized and gender-inclusive treatment programs for ages 12 and older. Reasons’ programs are designed to address the complexities of eating disorders and their intersection with anxiety, trauma, OCD, and substance abuse by providing each patient with a multidisciplinary team of professionals to assist in their process of healing. We offer our patients hope rooted in the belief that they are capable of living an authentic life of meaning and connectedness.
Reasons Eating Disorder Center is an innovative program founded on the belief that healing is a fundamental aspect of eating disorder treatment. We believe that eating disorders are rooted in and driven by anxiety and profound disruptions to the sufferers’ sense of self. We offer our patients hope, rooted in the belief that they are capable of living an authentic life of meaning and connectedness. Our goal is to create a culture that nurtures the integration of body and mind through the daily practice and continual reinforcing of the balancing ideas of Doing and Being.
Reasons offers highly personalized, gender-inclusive treatment for adults and adolescents. Our levels of care include Inpatient, residential, partial hospitalization, intensive outpatient and independent living. Reasons is located in the greater Los Angeles area and accepts most insurances. Please visit http://www.reasdonsedc.com for more information, or call our admissions team at 844 572-2766.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Contact Norine on her website at: https://norinevanderhooven.com
Resources on Norine’s website: Https://norinevanderhooven.com/resources
NY Times Article - Stacey Freedenthal
Helping the Suicidal Person - Stacey Freedenthal
Dese’rae Stage’s Website Live Through This - stories of suicide attempt survivors: https://livethroughthis.org/
Dr. Bart Andrews Story on Live Through This: https://livethroughthis.org/bart-andrews/
American Association of Suicidology - Extensive resources and they also have a group for Clinicians who have lost clients or loved ones to suicide: https://suicidology.org/
Professional Wills by Dr. Ben Caldwell – Course on SimplePractice Learning
Relevant Episodes: Therapist Suicide
We Can’t Help Ourselves
Therapists in Therapy
Therapists on Your Couch
Impaired Therapists
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW about therapists who become suicidal. Curt and Katie interview Norine on the risk factors that therapists face as well as how we can support each other in our community. We talk about prevention, interventions with a colleague, and how to manage when a colleague dies by suicide.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW Norine Vander Hooven is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in practice for 32 years. She specializes in trauma, anxiety, suicide prevention, and life transitions. Norine is also certified in EMDR therapy, and is in training to be an EMDR therapy consultant. She uses this to work with people with PTSD, anxiety, and traumatic life events. Norine provides clinical consultation for therapists, as well as she works with young adults and adults in her private practice. Learn more at norinevanderhooven.com
In this episode we talk about: * Following up on a previous episode, Therapist Suicide. * Looking at supervisors who have died by suicide * The lack of research and data regarding therapist suicide (both ideation and completion) * The fear and stigma about disclosing suicidal ideation and attempts for therapists * The difference between therapists and others in suicide risk * Heightened risk factors for therapists * How therapists take in the work with their clients * The isolation and lack of support that can happen with therapists * Suggestions for therapists to address suicidal thoughts, isolation, loneliness * Belonging, Burden, and Capability * The importance of community and consultation * The suggestion to be in your own therapy * Incorporating self-care even down to the small moments during the work day * How to incorporate knowledge about the challenge of the profession into our educational system * The shame therapists feel (both perceived and actual) about mental health challenges * How to support therapists who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts * How to provide therapy to therapists, incorporating conversations and assessment about suicide from the beginning, normalizing the experience and challenge of being a therapist * Supporting therapists in our community * Planning for postvention – comprehensive conversations after therapists have clients die by suicide or other big events in our colleagues’ lives * The importance of normalizing the feelings that therapists could be presenting with in consultation groups * What can we do when one of our colleagues die by suicide * The typical reactions and responses from colleagues, clients, and community members * Preparing to have a conversation with a client whose therapist has died by suicide * How to communicate about the death in the therapist community * The importance of a therapist will for all therapists, and supervisors
Our Generous Sponsor: Reasons Eating Disorder Reasons Eating Disorder Center in Los Angeles, CA provides comprehensive, personalized and gender-inclusive treatment programs for ages 12 and older. Reasons’ programs are designed to address the complexities of eating disorders and their intersection with anxiety, trauma, OCD, and substance abuse by providing each patient with a multidisciplinary team of professionals to assist in their process of healing. We offer our patients hope rooted in the belief that they are capable of living an authentic life of meaning and connectedness.
Reasons Eating Disorder Center is an innovative program founded on the belief that healing is a fundamental aspect of eating disorder treatment. We believe that eating disorders are rooted in and driven by anxiety and profound disruptions to the sufferers’ sense of self. We offer our patients hope, rooted in the belief that they are capable of living an authentic life of meaning and connectedness. Our goal is to create a culture that nurtures the integration of body and mind through the daily practice and continual reinforcing of the balancing ideas of Doing and Being.
Reasons offers highly personalized, gender-inclusive treatment for adults and adolescents. Our levels of care include Inpatient, residential, partial hospitalization, intensive outpatient and independent living. Reasons is located in the greater Los Angeles area and accepts most insurances. Please visit http://www.reasdonsedc.com for more information, or call our admissions team at 844 572-2766.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Contact Norine on her website at: https://norinevanderhooven.com
Resources on Norine’s website: Https://norinevanderhooven.com/resources
NY Times Article - Stacey Freedenthal
Helping the Suicidal Person - Stacey Freedenthal
Dese’rae Stage’s Website Live Through This - stories of suicide attempt survivors: https://livethroughthis.org/
Dr. Bart Andrews Story on Live Through This: https://livethroughthis.org/bart-andrews/
American Association of Suicidology - Extensive resources and they also have a group for Clinicians who have lost clients or loved ones to suicide: https://suicidology.org/
Professional Wills by Dr. Ben Caldwell – Course on SimplePractice Learning
Relevant Episodes: Therapist Suicide
We Can’t Help Ourselves
Therapists in Therapy
Therapists on Your Couch
Impaired Therapists
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW about assessing suicide appropriately for our clients from the beginning of treatment. Curt and Katie talk with Norine about what therapists often miss with their clients and how to treat suicidality when it comes up.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW Norine Vander Hooven is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in practice for 32 years. She specializes in trauma, anxiety, suicide prevention, and life transitions. Norine is also certified in EMDR therapy, and is in training to be an EMDR therapy consultant. She uses this to work with people with PTSD, anxiety, and traumatic life events. Norine provides clinical consultation for therapists, as well as she works with young adults and adults in her private practice. Learn more at norinevanderhooven.com
In this episode we talk about: * Norine’s story and how she entered into suicidology * How to appropriately assess for Suicide Risk from the beginning of treatment * What needs to be asked in your intake * The fear that therapists have in deeply looking at suicide with clients * The importance of exploring traumas from birth for clients * Why “die by suicide” is so much better than “committed” suicide * What #notsix means (how many people are actually affected by a single suicide) * Risk factors for suicidality: lack of belonging, feeling of being a burden, capability * What therapists often miss when assessing for suicide * The need to understand the client’s perception of the level of crisis around suicidality * Old school assessments and safety contracts that are not useful, and what to use instead * Who is most at risk for suicidal thoughts * What to consider in assessing for suicidality with clients who don’t appear to be at risk * Different types of suicidal thoughts * Searching for hope and forward thinking in life * Types of treatment modalities to address all types of suicidal thoughts * How to successfully assess, safety plan, and address suicide head on
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They know where their business money is going. They have a plan — and the profit — to grow. They are overly dependent on no-one (including that needy client) for their income and stand tall on their own two financial feet. When the tax man comes around… they’re prepared for taxes and may be “irritated” but they’re not shocked, panicked and scrambling for how to pay Uncle Sam.
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Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Contact Norine on her website at: https://norinevanderhooven.com
Resources on Norine’s website: https://norinevanderhooven.com/resources
American Association of Suicidology - Extensive resources and they also have a group for Clinicians who have lost clients or loved ones to suicide
Language Matters by Jonathan Singer
#notsix - research by Dr. Julie Cerel
Thomas Joiner, PhD: Interpersonal Factors for Suicidology
NY Times Article - Stacey Freedenthal
Helping the Suicidal Person - Stacey Freedenthal
Dese’rae Stage’s Website Live Through This - stories of suicide attempt survivors
Dr. Bart Andrews Story on Live Through This
Relevant Episodes: When Clients Die
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the nuance of treating therapists in therapy. We look at the unique dynamics in the therapeutic relationship as well as common traps to avoid.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The lack of research or guidance on how to treat therapists in therapy * How different are therapists as therapy clients * What it is like to have a therapist for a therapy client * What to assess for with therapists * The importance of looking at what the presenting problem is * The expectation that therapists would be different that other clients * The therapeutic alliance and dual relationship conversations * The dynamic of making assumptions about therapists as clients * The theme of competition between client and therapist * Therapists overidentifying with therapist clients and making inaccurate assumptions * A different type of presenting problem and length of treatment * Common coping strategies (i.e., rationalization, focusing on cognition, non-judgmental, disconnect from feelings) that need to be overcome more with therapist clients * Clarifying the role and rules in the room, so we can take off the armor * Avoiding the temptation of staying in intellect and insight * Pushing for some comparison to other clients – reassurance, validation, vulnerability, trying to please or take care of the therapist * The importance of the therapist holding the container, so the therapist-client can do their work * How to navigate the differences between being a therapist and a supervisor or a manager * How therapists are like other clients, but totally different
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers
Relevant Episodes: Therapists in Therapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Pardis Mahdavi, PhD, and Negeen Moussavian, AMFT, regarding Iran, current events, and how the news might impact Iranian clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Pardis Mahdavi, PhD and Negeen Moussavian, AMFT Pardis Mahdavi, PhD is currently Director of the School for Social Transformation at Arizona State University. Before coming to Arizona, she was Acting Dean of the Korbel School of International Studies at the University of Denver (2017-2019), after spending eleven years at Pomona College from 2006-2017 where she most recently served as professor and chair of anthropology and director of the Pacific Basin Institute at Pomona College as well as Dean of Women. Her research interests include gendered labor, human trafficking, migration, sexuality, human rights, transnational feminism, and public health in the context of changing global and political structures. She has published four single authored books and one edited volume in addition to numerous journal and news articles. She has been a fellow at the Social Sciences Research Council, the American Council on Learned Societies, Google Ideas, and the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. In 2018 she was appointed by Colorado Governor John Hickenlooper and re-appointed by Governor Jared Polis to serve on the Colorado Commission on Higher Education.
Negeen Moussavian is a Registered Associate Marriage and Family Therapist (#107771) working under the supervision of Curt Widhalm LMFT (#47333) in Encino, CA. She received her Master of Arts in Clinical Psychology with an emphasis in Marriage & Family Therapy from Pepperdine University. She works with clients dealing with relationships, dating, infidelity, and trauma. Additionally, she works with Iranian-American clients on issues surrounding identity, generational trauma, and other culture specific topics. She implements a combination of holistic and traditional therapy practices, including EMDR therapy.
In this episode we talk about: * Current events in Iran as well as historical context * Liminality – the feeling of not belonging here or there * The importance of being informed * The uncertainty that can lead to fear and then to hate * The crushing tsunami wave of islamophobia that is coming in the United States * How significant events related to Iran impact Iranian-Americans * The dramatic changes within Iran * How therapists can help Iranian families to cope with the impacts of current events
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Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Pardis Mahdavi’s website: https://www.pardismahdavi.com/
Pardis’ books: https://www.pardismahdavi.com/books/
(including Passionate Uprisings: Iran’s Sexual Revolution)
School of Social Tranformation at Arizona State University
Negeen Moussavian’s website: http://therapywithnegeen.com/
Negeen’s Instagram: @therapywithnegeen
CAV Academy: 2020 Kauai Foundations of Connection Retreat
Relevant Episodes: Let’s Talk About Race
Let’s Talk About Race Again
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making “dad jokes” and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: http://www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt’s youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: http://www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how difficult it is for therapists to take care of ourselves. We look at why we struggle with the self-care that we teach our clients, including shaming in our field, lack of connection to our shadow-self, and where we seek support.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Why the Giving Tree is a bad role model * Road blocks therapists put in their own way * Katie’s notion of Sacrificial Helping * The wounded healer concept * The reasons we do not take care of ourselves * How we define our value, especially related to the idea that our value is to help others * The harm of valuing productivity over all else * The search for meaning – what we do is meaningful to us * Volunteering on top of the work we do * The idea that you can be impacted by the therapy you do * The role that the shadow self plays * The strict, externalized parent and oppositionality * The shame for not “self-caring” enough or believing in the “right” form or health from our field * Burnout’s effect on decision-making * The lack of training on how to use the coping strategies on yourself * How to make decisions better about self-care as a therapist * Opening space for mistakes in our field * How relational therapies can be a solution for therapists who are grappling with their own stuff * Where to seek support (and where not to seek support) * Intention versus reactivity
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein
Lori Gottlieb, MFT
Irvin Yalom, MD
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers
Relevant Episodes: Self-Care, Self-Compassion, and Self-Awareness for Therapists
Vulnerability, Mistakes, and The Imposter Syndrome
The Danger of Poor Self-Care for Therapists
Compassion Fatigue
Therapists in Therapy
Toxic Work Environments
Managing Vicarious Trauma
The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout System
The Mental Load of Therapists
All Kinds of Burned Out
Impaired Therapists
Therapist Suicide
When is it Discrimination?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, the CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Special Episode: Curt and Katie talk about the recent NUHW- Kaiser Permanente Mental Health Worker Strike. Katie interviews a National Union of Healthcare Workers representative, Dr. Kenneth Rogers. We then both reflect on the interview and a statement from Kaiser Permanente, especially related to the implications for the profession as a whole.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The implications of the strike for all mental healthcare workers * A statement from Kaiser Permanente * An interview with Dr. Kenneth Rogers, shop steward and member of the bargaining team for NUHW * The focus of the strike – looking at what the Union is requesting * What a shop steward is, how the union works, what the bargaining table looks like * The bureaucracy and distance that impacts the bargaining * The different perspectives of each side * The complexity of the decision making, the strategy of Kaiser Permanente * The possibilities that Katie sees related to state-of-the-art mental health services * The goal of transforming the model of care * The inefficiencies that lead to lower productivity, the focus needed to improve care * The positives in the current Kaiser proposal * The hope of coming together to work on the future of mental healthcare * The lack of parity in how mental healthcare workers are treated versus other professionals in Kaiser, looking at the perceived payment philosophy * NUHW goal for the mental health system of care – solely getting to the basic standard of care * The lack of trust between Kaiser and NUHW and the complexity of the decision-making * Rogers’ reflections on the survival guide tips and the impact of the strike on clinicians and patients, advice for the striking clinicians * The strong desire on both sides for this “wasteful strike” to be over * Reflections from Curt and Katie * The progress made with repeated short strikes (or lack of progress) * The goals and the intersection that seems to be lost in the bargaining process * Perspective on the problem from both Curt and Katie * The business assessment on lost revenue * The impact of Kaiser’s payment philosophy on other workplaces (Curt busting out some economic theory from Richard Thayler) * The importance of the union work on wages in other workplaces * Parity for mental health professionals and what that means for mental health parity * Call to action to stay informed, step up and advocacy
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Kaiser Permanente Statement:
Statement regarding NUHW’s Planned Strike December 16-20, 2019 from:
Arlene Peasnall, Senior Vice President and Interim Chief Human Resources Officer
Despite the National Union of Healthcare Workers’ (NUHW) decision to strike, it is important our members know that our hospitals and medical offices remain open. Our commitment to patients comes first. We are working hard to deliver the high-quality care and services members and patients need. Anyone in need of urgent mental health or other care will receive the services they require. Where necessary, we will call members to reschedule some non-urgent appointments. We apologize for any inconvenience caused by this unnecessary strike.
We have been jointly working with an external, neutral mediator to help us reach a collective bargaining agreement with the National Union of Healthcare Workers (NUHW). The mediator recently delivered a proposed compromise to both sides that we are seriously considering; however, the union has rejected it and announced plans to strike instead of working through the mediated process.
This is NUHW’s sixth noticed strike within a single year. We believe that NUHW’s repeated call for short strikes is disruptive to patient access, operational care and service and is frankly irresponsible. Although Kaiser Permanente will make every effort to minimize patient disruption, we are again forced to devote valuable resources needed elsewhere in our organization to instead address the continuity of care and our operations while these employees strike.
A strike does nothing to help our important work to advance care, nor does it help us achieve a mutually beneficial contract. All it does is put our members in the middle of bargaining, which is not fair to them, especially during the holidays when rates of depression can spike and our patients are counting on their caregivers to be there.
Rather than calling for a strike, we ask that NUHW’s leadership continue to engage with the mediator and Kaiser Permanente to resolve these issues.
National Union of Healthcare Workers: NUHW
NUHW Facebook Page
Kaiser Don’t Deny
Union Representative Dr. Kenneth Rogers bio:
Kenneth Rogers, Psy.D. is a psychologist who has worked with the Kaiser Permanente Medical Group for the past 16 years. He has worked at the Fremont, Santa Clara, and Campbell Medical Centers in the past and currently works at the Elk Grove clinic near South Sacramento. He has been a shop steward for NUHW since its inception in 2009 and has been on the NUHW Executive Board since 2015. Dr. Rogers was a member of the 2010-2015 contract bargaining team and he remains a member of the current bargaining committee since July, 2018.
Los Angeles Times Article
The Kaiser Permanente ACE Study
Economic Theory: Nobel Prize Winning Economist Richard Thayler – Anomalies: Inter-industry Wage Differentials
Relevant Episodes: Modern Therapists Strike Back
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the advocacy efforts to make paying prelicensed individuals a best practice. We talk about a statement recently approved by CAMFT, looking at the process, the implications, and a call to action.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * A public statement approved at the most recent meeting of California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists * The supporting information that suggests that paying prelicensed individuals is a best practice of supervision * The importance of a living wage, benefits, and meaningful work * Curt’s journey in support of this statement * The ability (and the challenge) for each of us in these types of advocacy efforts. * The call to action to take this statement to your own professional organization * The type of push back to expect and how to address it * Laws and best practices versus implementation and accountability * Addressing bad actors and the goal of keeping good actors good * How a single voice can be silenced, but a movement can make a difference * The mission of the #therapymovement to leave our profession better * A second call to action for you to stand up and advocate for the necessary changes you see
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists
The Public Board book from the December CAMFT board meeting (statement on pg. 204-206)
The CAMFT Task Force who crafted the statement: Curt Widhalm, Lisa Romain, LMFT, Jeff Kashou, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy
The statement approved by the CAMFT Board: Statement on Paying Associates as a Best Practice of Supervision In alignment with CAMFT’s mission, this organization works to anticipate and address the professional needs of its members and to advance the Marriage and Family Therapist profession, with a foundational value of inclusion. The current employment model for Associate Marriage and Family Therapists makes it difficult for them to support themselves financially during the time period when they are accruing required supervised experience. The lack of pay can also create barriers to entry into the workforce based on socio-economic status, decreasing the potential diversity in our profession (Hoge, Morris, Daniels, Stuart, Huey, & Adams, 2007, pg 272).
When organizations offer competitive wage and benefits packages, meaningful work, and appropriate infrastructure, they are able to hire and retain qualified professionals who can provide high quality mental health services (Hoge et al., 2007, pg 18). Staff turnover is costly to employers (Hoge et al., 2007, pg 16), has negative effects on clients, and undermines quality of care (Knudsen, Johnson, & Roman, 2003; Eby, Burnk, & Maher, 2010)
There are concerns related to the rights of therapists who take unpaid or volunteer work. These workers often are not extended the legal rights afforded to employees. In truth, the Civil Rights Act, FMLA, and EEOC do not apply to unpaid positions, leaving our prelicensees at risk for discriminatory abuses (Hickman, 2014). Further, many unpaid positions are actually displacing work that other paid employees could perform, further impacting the wages of others in the field (Crain, 2016). Low wages are shown to increase turnover and burnout, leading to inconsistency in the workforce and a decrease in the quality of mental health services (SAMHSA, 2014, pg 157, Hoge 16, pp. 105-109).
Lack of pay for Associate MFTs has a longer term effect on employment for Associates. Associate MFTs may take longer to earn their MFT license, directly affecting their salary. In addition, workers who obtain unpaid internships are often required to work additional jobs or seek additional financial support. This is considered “underemployment,” which impacts up to 56% of our workforce (Abel, Deitz, & Su, 2014). Finally, when entering the job market for a paid position, these workers are often at a disadvantage to their peers who have either had a paid internship or who have had no internship experience at all (Crain, 2016, pp. 6-7). Workers who have come from unpaid internships receive fewer job offers and work for lower wages (Crain, 2016, pp. 6-7).
CAMFT calls on employers to pay Associates as a best practice in valuing equality, inclusion, and diversity in the MFT profession. CAMFT affirms that workplaces that recruit Associate Marriage and Family Therapists to provide mental health services shall, as a best practice, provide a living wage (commensurate with cost of living, education, experience, and responsibility), benefits, clear roles, appropriate caseloads, administrative support, and appropriate training and supervision.
References: Abel, J. R., Deitz, R., & Su, Y. (2014) Are recent college graduates finding good jobs? Current Issues in Economics and Finance, 20(1). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=2378472
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA). (2014). Trauma Informed Care in Behavioral Health Service: Treatment Improvement Protocol (TIP) Series 57. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Rockville, MD.
Crain, A. (2016). Understanding the impact of unpaid internships on college student career development and employment outcomes. NACE Journal. Available at https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/internships/exploring-the-implications-of-unpaidinternships/.
Eby, L. T., Burk, H., & Maher, C. P. (2010). How serious of a problem is staff turnover in substance abuse treatment? A longitudinal study of actual turnover. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 39, 264–271.
Hickman, B. (2014, July 23). What we learned exploring unpaid internships. Retrieved from https://www.propublica.org/article/what-we-learned-investigating-unpaid-internships
Hoge, M. A., Morris, J. A., Daniels, A. S., Stuart, G. W., Huey, L. Y., & Adams, N. (2007). An action plan for behavioral health workforce development. Annapolis Coalition on the Behavioral Health Workforce: Cincinnati, OH.
Knudsen, H. K., Johnson, J. A., & Roman, P. M. (2003). Retaining counseling staff at substance abuse treatment centers: Effects of management practices. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 24(2), 129- 135.
Relevant Episodes: Defining the Therapy Movement
Trauma Informed Work Place
Joining Your Association
Modern Therapists Strike Back
Let’s Get Political
Building Hope for the Next Generation of Therapists
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Getting Personal to Advocate for Compassion, Understanding, and Social Justice
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Dr. Laura Louis, CEO of Couch to Podium, on how to move into public speaking as a therapist. We look at best practices, what therapists get wrong, and how to get started.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Laura Louis, CEO of Couch to Podium. Dr. Laura Louis is the founder of the Couch to Podium academy which consists of a Facebook community, Courses Retreats, Seminars and a Mastermind. Dr. Louis teaches therapists and counselors all about the business side of speaking. She was able to book over 40 speaking engagements last year alone AND build a steady stream of speaking engagements.
Dr. Louis has conducted over one hundred paid speaking engagements nationally and internationally. She has negotiated travel, and expenses along with $3000 speaking fees. Dr. Louis' clients have launched paid speaking gigs, developed retreats and launched programs.
Dr. Louis has been featured on NBC, has been asked to speak for the American Psychological Association Conference and The National Sales Conference.
In this episode we talk about: * Laura’s program that teaches therapists how to move from doing therapy to booking paid speaking engagements * Speaking as an option to scale your business * The importance of you identifying your ideal client and what you teach them – that’s a talk * Identifying how to create the talk and who to pitch speaking to * Supporting your own dreams by being within a circle that is supportive * The benefit of getting unpaid experience in speaking (visibility, becoming comfortable, flowing through your talk, etc.) * Toastmasters as a great training ground * Building your list while speaking, so you can continue to support your audience after the talk * Social proof and understanding the experience – photos and videos – help you book speaking engagements * Monetizing your speaking through other offerings, back of room sales, licensing, etc. * Speaking to your target market to increase clients * Understanding how to assess what you can get out of speaking * Mindset changes needed to ask for pay or other benefits from speaking * Looking at the whole experience and benefits to determine whether you would like to take a speaking engagement * How to find paid speaking engagements * The need to adjust language to pitch to decision-making (pain points, solutions, without psycho-jargon) * The different types of applications, best practices * The differences between putting your own events on versus speaking for other people’s events * The ability to make money if you master the details of putting on your own live events * The need to understand sales and marketing to move forward with speaking * The time investment required when becoming a paid speaker
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Therapy Reimagined 2020 Call for Speakers
Couch to Podium website
Couch to Podium Membership Program
Dr. Louis’ Facebook Group: Paid to Speak (Mental Health Speakers Group)
Dr. Louis’ Facebook Page: Couch to Podium
Dr. Louis’ Instragram
Dr. Louis’ website: https://www.atlantacoupletherapy.com/
Dr. Louis’ training: https://drlouis.clickfunnels.com/booked-to-speak32977293
Relevant Episodes: Clinical Marketing
Beyond Selling the Couch
Open to Opportunity
So You Want to Plan a Conference
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Kate Campbell, PhD, LMFT, and Katie Lemieux, LMFT from The Private Practice Startup. Curt and Katie talk with Kate and Katie about the differences between marketing and branding, what therapists should consider when developing their personal brand, and common mistakes therapists make.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kate and Katie from the Private Practice Startup The Private Practice Startup is co-owned by Kate Campbell, PhD, LMFT and Katie Lemieux, LMFT. They’re two therapists with entrepreneurial spirits who are crazy about business, branding and marketing. They live, work and play in South Florida.
They both built their 6-Figure private practices in less than 2 years from the ground up and inspire other ambitious mental health professionals to brand themselves, grow their dream private practices and live into their dream lifestyles. They have a hunger for business, branding and marketing.
They love helping private practitioners work with the clients they love, profit more in business, and create the freedom to truly enjoy a lifestyle business.
Kate is a food and wine aficionado who loves to travel and create new memories with her husband and son. She also loves the beach, pilates, riding horses, concerts, and of course the occasional “retail therapy”.
Thanks to Kate, Katie is a wine snob in the making. Katie is an avid pitbull lover and has 2 of her own, she loves travel, new and fun adventures, reading, the ID channel, Halloween, sparkles, taking pictures, random silly things, family time and taking time to just be.
They are the creators of Private Practice Marketing E-Course and Coaching, provide FREE podcasts, and customizable Attorney Approved Private Practice Paperwork for therapists. Visit PrivatePracticeStartup.com for more info!
In this episode we talk about: * The shear number of Kate/Katies that Curt had to deal with on the episode. * The difference between marketing and branding * The importance of marketing in developing a business * Relationships, ownership as part of the branding process * How to stand out, become distinctive * What therapists should consider when developing a brand * How your unique selling proposition relates to the development of your branding and marketing * How therapists’ goals for their lifestyle and their individual picture impacts ideal client * Niche and saying no to the clients who are not in your wheel house * The challenge of being a generalist, fear of repelling too many clients * Why you need to have a brand that clearly inspires your ideal clients * The mistakes therapists often make in branding and connecting with your ideal clients * Clear planning, following up, and tracking for your marketing * Taking ownership of how you are perceived by your ideal clients * How to get to the place of effective entrepreneur * Using your skills and strengths to create your marketing plan * How brands evolve, especially as you add businesses, business partners, side hustles, etc. * How to become business partners and clarify how you work together * The mission, values, and operations ties to the brand * How your personal brand can be logistically experienced by the public (aka make sure you keep track of all of your websites)
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Kate and Katie’s website = www.privatepracticestartup.com
The A to Z Cheatsheet: Essentials for Building and Growing Your Dream Private Practice - https://a-z-cheat-sheet-download.gr8.com/
Donald Miller – Building a StoryBrand: Clarify Your Message So Customers Will Listen
Jeff Walker - Launch: An Internet Millionaire's Secret Formula to Sell Almost Anything Online, Build a Business You Love, and Live the Life of Your Dreams
Russell Brunson
Gary Vaynerchuck
Relevant Episodes: Clinical Marketing
The Brand Called You
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about Person of the Therapist training. We talk about a revolutionary training model that starts with who a therapist is and what will come up for them as a therapist – rather than setting unreasonable expectations of blank, neutral, perfect therapists.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Person of the Therapist training – addressing the whole person therapist * The work of Dr. Harry Aponte at Drexel University * Looking at how pulling from your own history can impact how you approach the work in the room * The importance of finding your own personal themes and challenges, owning your own story * Innovative classes that start graduate programs with personal growth and insight * Normalizing reactions and individual differences from the beginning of our education * How close the line can be between education and therapy * The fallacy that therapists can be blank or neutral * The drive toward Evidence Based Practices * The depth of supervision that occurs when focusing on the person of the therapist * The problem of siloed areas of the field and how bringing it back into the same room * The vulnerability required for the depth of this work * The ability to increase maturity of the therapist more quickly through this type of work * The importance of structure and containment to do this type of work * Teaching self-awareness and self-monitoring * The power of building supportive community to do work more in the open, to decrease shame and perfectionism * Learning how to give respectful, structured, effective feedback – exercising your empathy muscle * How building resilience and connection can improve the profession as a whole * Increasing distress tolerance and capacity for taking feedback * Looking at the benefit of doing this work at all stages in your career
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Dr. Harry J Aponte
Person of the Therapist Training Model by Dr. Harry Aponte
Claudio & Watson: Perceived impact of the Person of the Therapist Training model on Drexel University Master of Family Therapy postgraduates’ clinical work
Kissil, Carneiro, & Aponte: Beyond duality: The relationship between the personal and the professional selves of the therapist in the Person of the Therapist Training
Watson: Doing it right: Branding the Person of the Therapist Training model in Drexel University’s Master of Family Therapy program
Aponte & Ingram: Person of the Therapist supervision: Reflections of a therapist and supervisor on empathic-identification and differentiation
Relevant Episodes: Therapists in Therapy
Impaired Therapists
That’s Unethical
Therapist Haters and Trolls
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Michael Blumberg, LCPC, about mental health care as a basic human right. Curt and Katie talk with Michael about the tension between access and therapist financial stability. We look at ideas to support access while being thoughtful about your own financial needs.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Michael Blumberg, LCPC Michael Blumberg is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor and group practice owner in the Chicago suburb of Glenview. Michael founded and manages Glenview Counseling Group, a multi-disciplinary psychotherapy group practice, where he treats clients with OCD & complex anxiety and manages the daily operations of the practice. Michael also co-founded a business focused solely on the business aspects of group practice ownership called Group Practice Builders with his friend and colleague Maureen Werrbach. Together they plan and facilitate an annual conference called the Group Practice Owners Summit which draws attendees from across the US and abroad.
In this episode we talk about: * How Michael defines Mental Health Care as a Human Right * The idea that all people, regardless of ability to pay, have the right to be emotionally and psychologically well * Pushing back against mental health and wellness as an extravagance * The conflict between access and running a private practice * The concern that if this is a human right, clinicians might be conscripted into service * If large organizations can’t make access available, how can small therapy practices do anything? * Ideas for how small therapy practices can make a difference in providing mental health access * How to make the choices in how much you make, how you increase access * The importance of individuals making these decisions for themselves based on their own needs. * Advocacy as another way to increase access and work in prevention * The tension between access and time or financial stability for individual clinicians * The Starfish Thrower * How the education system promotes sacrifice by the therapist * Do what YOU can do and be thoughtful about it * How to get creative and dismiss preconceived notions of what SHOULD be done * The balancing act if you open yourself to the idea that you should personally provide access * How these principles fit into the #moderntherapist ideas
Our Generous Sponsor: The Therapist Leader The Therapist Leader was created to assist therapists developing their businesses beyond the one-to-one model in a strategic and sustainable way, using a three-pronged approach, Refine | Scale | Lead:
REFINE your practice in way that leverages your money, your time and your life in such a way that leaves room to grow your business idea.
Then SCALE your new business idea in a way that is aligned with your values, your lifestyle and tunes out the noise of a busy online world of get rich and overstated marketing promises.
And LEAD your business well. Leadership doesn't have to be scary and leadership shows up in many ways in your business growth journey. Getting equipped is empowering and essential.
Get your free CEO Workbook and accompanying e-course at TheTherapistLeader.com which will walk you through 5 key shifts to make to grow the business of your dreams.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Group Practice Owner’s Summit: https://grouppracticebuilders.com/summit-2020/
Glenview Counseling Group: http://www.glenviewcounseling.com
World Health Organization
UN Human Rights Council
Relevant Episodes: Therapist Suicide
Who Gets to Have Therapy?
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about a recent news story related to Dr. Gregory Eells, the Executive Director of the Counseling and Psychological Services at University of Pennsylvania, who died by suicide in September 2019. We talk about how the understanding of risk factors, the changing face of our profession, and calls for self-care are insufficient to address the mental health needs of mental health professionals.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Therapist death by suicide * The life and work of Dr. Gregory Eells * The risk factors for therapist suicide: our own mental health concerns, highly challenging our work is, the changing work environments, burnout and isolation. * The insufficiency of “self-care” as a solution and what it infers about the mental health professionals who are unable to employ it * The systemic issues leading to poor mental health in the professionals * University counseling centers – the increasing percentage utilization, a look at how access and services have been affected * How new legislation that could improve the situation is still insufficient * A call for early intervention, comprehensive services * How caseloads are impacted by limiting services to clients with the highest level of need * Moral injury in addition to “burnout” * Suggested solutions for individuals and for systems * The importance of assessing capacity and need * What types of things to assess: (culture, demographics, etc.) * Getting creative, while assessing true capacity (time, energy, personnel, space, mental/emotional, sustainability of effort) * Tracking data related to work, the possibility of unions * Looking at productivity, services provided, funding, compliance with funder requirements, and reasonable metrics * Making decisions on whether you stay, how you make your work environment as healthy as you can, and working within the system while it slowly changes * The danger of hopelessness, the hope of re-igniting motivation and ambition * The importance of connecting as a community, supporting each other, calling out worrisome symptoms and unhealthy environments
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Your Tango Article: Head of UPenn’s Mental Health Services Dies By Suicide
Psychologist suicide: Incidence, impact, and suggestions for prevention, intervention, and postvention
Dr. Eells’ TEDx talk on Resilience
Center for Collegiate Mental Health, 2015 Annual Report
AUCCCD Survey 2018
Who helps the caregiver? Penn counselor’s suicide highlights how experts aren’t immune from struggles
It’s Not Burnout, It’s Moral Injury by Dr. Zubin Damania
Center for Collegiate Mental Health 2018 – Clinical Load Index
Penn Today: A Conversation with new CAPS Director Gregory Eells
Relevant Episodes: The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout System
All Kinds of Burned Out
Impaired Therapists
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Dr. Rachna Jain, of Profitable Popularity, talks with Curt and Katie about SEO best practices as well as things to consider when deciding what level of SEO to employ. We also look at how to proactively protect your online reputation and how to repair it.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Rachna Jain Dr. Rachna Jain is a clinical psychologist and internet marketing expert who helps service professionals attract new clients from the internet. Her company offers website design, search engine optimization, and other marketing support for therapists- whether they want to build a thriving local practice or a bigger, national platform.
Rachna has been quoted in more than 500 major media publications, including Fortune Small Business, Entrepreneur Magazine, The Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, has guested on NPR and other top radio, and has also appeared on NBC's Today Show. The author of five books, she is additionally an avid jewelry artist and digital photographer. Her jewelry and photography have been sold nationally. She can be reached at ProfitablePopularity.com.
In this episode we talk about: * How Rachna got into SEO * The differences that need to be considered in creating an online presence when you’re a therapist versus other service-based businesses * The importance of specialization * How to decide whether you should do your own SEO * The risk of getting a negative review and the importance of knowing what to monitor * How SEO has changed, how the internet has changed * The difference between organic and paid rankings, the current challenges in getting highly ranked organically * Right-sizing your SEO efforts, setting reasonable expectations * The reasons to avoid doing SEO when you’re a new business * Why to get SEO: capacity, client retention capability, and high enough fee for ROI * Things that positively impact ratings on google * Pros and Cons of blogging * Strategies for reputation management: Own your google results for your name * Addressing Yelp (a high authority site) * Reputation repair strategies * Building profiles at least as place holders to manage reputation * Where to invest money on online marketing (and where not to) * The problem of the wrong visibility * How much time to spend on SEO each week, decision-making on doing SEO or outsourcing * When people can shift from looking locally to creating a larger platform (or aim toward thought leadership) * What you need to launch a larger platform
Our Generous Sponsor: The Therapist Leader The Therapist Leader was created to assist therapists developing their businesses beyond the one-to-one model in a strategic and sustainable way, using a three-pronged approach, Refine | Scale | Lead:
REFINE your practice in way that leverages your money, your time and your life in such a way that leaves room to grow your business idea.
Then SCALE your new business idea in a way that is aligned with your values, your lifestyle and tunes out the noise of a busy online world of get rich and overstated marketing promises.
And LEAD your business well. Leadership doesn't have to be scary and leadership shows up in many ways in your business growth journey. Getting equipped is empowering and essential.
Get your free CEO Workbook and accompanying e-course at TheTherapistLeader.com which will walk you through 5 key shifts to make to grow the business of your dreams.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Rachna’s SEO company: Profitable Popularity
Kevin Kelly – A Thousand True Fans
Relevant Episodes: Be the CEO of your SEO
Creating Relevant Ads
Managing Your Online Reputation
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Get Notified About Therapy Reimagined 2020 (and TR2019 Virtual Conference)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Live Podcast: Curt and Katie are live at Therapy Reimagined 2019. We talk about what the #therapymovement aspires to accomplish. We talk about the broken educational system, the need for a livable wage, the ways we can improve our profession, and stronger ways that we can show up for our clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The origin story of the #therapymovement * What needs to be changed in our profession * The conversations we are having and need to continue having * Conversations with #moderntherapists about education and therapist-ways-of-being * How continuing education needs to shift to support the actual job * The difference between what graduate programs teach and what the work actually looks like * What do we do to improve the profession? * The importance of a livable wage * #postthepay * The threat on our scope of practice if we don’t have adequate numbers * The need to improve the quality of the therapists that come out of the educational system * The importance of getting new voices into the conversation * Looking at what therapy has been versus what therapy can be * How to step into leadership in this #therapymovement * The way to effect change, both in our office and the world * The importance of being present to help keep our clients alive * Now what?
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant, fully integrated EHR for health and wellness professionals in private practice. It consistently ranks as the “#1 Most Popular Mental Health Software” on Capterra, and has collected over $2.8 billion in revenue for its customers. SimplePractice offers features like paperless intakes, automated billing for self-pay and insurance, free appointment reminders, secure messaging, telehealth, and more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1 (equivalent to a $50 credit). Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only and does not include product add-ons.
This is episode is also sponsored by Simplified SEO.
Thank you to our generous sponsor, Simplified SEO Consulting. Do you have a beautiful website that just doesn’t rank very well on Google? Simplified SEO Consulting can help! Jessica Tappana, LCSW and a team of SEO Specialists focus exclusively on helping mental health professionals improve their website rankings on Google so you can get in front of more clients! Jessica’s team goes in depth to edit your website in a way search engines will respond to, while also encouraging you to maintain your own voice and branding. Simplified SEO Consulting offers both SEO training for motivated practice owners who want to learn to manage their own SEO as well as "done for you" services for therapists who are too busy and are ready to hire someone to invest the time into getting their website ranking. Simplified SEO Consulting is offering a FREE 7-day SEO e-mail series to help you learn the basic components that can help you get your website to the top of search engines! If you're interested in learning more about search engine optimization, you can head over to www.simplifiedseoconsulting.com/moderntherapist to sign up!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Dr. Ben Caldwell, LMFT
Caroline Wiita
Amoret Kaufman LMFT
Very Bad Therapy Podcast
Scott Miller’s work
Sage Mendez-McLeish, MA
Relevant Episodes: Ben Caldwell’s episode: The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about therapists who become impaired – by substance abuse, cognitive decline, their own mental health concerns, burnout, etc. The challenges of addressing impaired therapists given the ethics codes, the lack of effective means to make complaints, and the difficulty in finding effective solutions.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The definition of Impaired Therapist * The lack of recent research on the topic * The types of impairment: substance abuse, cognitive decline, mental health concerns, burnout * Why and how therapists can become impaired * Looking at how therapists are more likely to have these impairments * The responsibilities and challenges of observing impairment of others (especially depending on the role, supervisor, supervisee, colleague) * The ethical responsibility to pay attention to your own potential impairment * The challenge of making a complaint related to an impaired therapist * Looking at the ethics code, with the responsibility to approach impaired colleague first * How the interaction in the Facebook groups is not necessarily taking care of this responsibility well. * The harm of shaming therapists – and the importance of supporting each other * The impact of the power differential on having these difficult conversations * The negative impacts on clients and treatment team members from impaired therapists * What is the difference between impaired therapists and bad therapy? * The importance of the response and introspection related to impairment * What we’re supposed to do when we identify an impaired colleague, supervisor, or supervisee * Who are the gatekeepers? Why is it important? * A strange foray into the thoughts on vigilante therapists and the #cardigancartel
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant, fully integrated EHR for health and wellness professionals in private practice. It consistently ranks as the “#1 Most Popular Mental Health Software” on Capterra, and has collected over $2.8 billion in revenue for its customers. SimplePractice offers features like paperless intakes, automated billing for self-pay and insurance, free appointment reminders, secure messaging, telehealth, and more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1 (equivalent to a $50 credit). Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only and does not include product add-ons.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Psychology Today: Why Shrinks Have Problems
APA Article - Self-care and intervening with impairment
Ethics of Burnout
APA: Ethics related to an impaired colleague
Very Bad Therapy Podcast
Relevant Episodes: When Clients Die
That’s Unethical
Haters and Trolls
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how politics have started coming into the therapy room. We look at how the election of Donald Trump seemed to increase clients (and therapists) actively bringing world events into the therapeutic work.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The shift from avoiding politics, religion, etc. in therapy to having it be central in therapy conversations * How Donald Trump’s presidency (and the impacts of his administration) show up in the room * What can happen when therapists share their political views with their clients * The fear, trauma, and grief that has become more present in the conversations about the world at large * How an informed client population means that therapists need to be aware of both the events and the potential impacts on individuals (and groups). * The importance clients have started placing on political similarity or safety to express their viewpoints, even in the intake phone call * Research on political disclosure in therapy, perceived similarity of political views, and the impact on therapeutic alliance * The risk of falsely assuming alignment or over-disclosing political views with clients * Looking at when political/philosophical conversations are just fun and not helpful * The different impacts of the events of the day based on demographics and identity * Opening space, using caution, observing to continue to have these conversations be therapeutic * How burnout can impact these conversations * Counter Transference and whether your own reactions should come into the treatment room with your clients * Looking at how true reactions can be used in treatment, the bias of remaining neutral * The potential for complex conversations that can heal with our clients * The instinct to try to “correct” clients with opposing viewpoints (and the damage that can do) * How therapists should prepare for being in the room for these conversations, and take care of themselves in the process.
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant, fully integrated EHR for health and wellness professionals in private practice. It consistently ranks as the “#1 Most Popular Mental Health Software” on Capterra, and has collected over $2.8 billion in revenue for its customers. SimplePractice offers features like paperless intakes, automated billing for self-pay and insurance, free appointment reminders, secure messaging, telehealth, and more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1 (equivalent to a $50 credit). Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only and does not include product add-ons.
This is episode is also sponsored by My Solution Services.
My Solution Services is more than your typical VA. With over 13 years of experience in Mental Health, they specialize in working with professional clinicians all over the US and Canada. My Solutions Services, Inc provides Online Business Management (OBM) and Certified Professional Practice Building Coaching for therapists. They help with the daily tasks of running the business side of private practice - everything on the outside of the therapy room! Working with therapists around the world they provide the assistance you need that is customized to your practice. Visit out their website for resources and information on building your solo or group practice at mysolutionservices.com
AND they have a special gift for you...here is The Ultimate Guide to Outsourcing in your Private/Group practice. With over 200 items here, you don't have to do the daily tasks of running your business on your own ever again! Get your guide at: https://mysolutionservices.com/ultimate-guide/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Article Citations:
Solomonov, N. and Barber, J.B. (2018). Patients’ perspectives on political self-disclosure, the therapeutic alliance, and the infiltration of politics into the therapy room in the Trump era. J. Clin. Psychol. 2018; 74:779–787.
Farber, B. (2018). “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right”: Politics and psychotherapy, 2018. J. Clin. Psychol. 2018; 74:714–721.
Instagram: Dr. Jennifer Mullan’s Decolonizing Therapy
Clinical Encounters with Children in the Trump Era
Relevant Episodes: How Much is Too Much (on Self-Disclosure)
Dual Relationships Pros and Cons
Vulnerability, The News and You
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Eliza Boquin, LMFT on what therapists miss when they don’t talk about sex with their clients. Curt and Katie talk with Eliza about how judgment, shame, and discomfort can come into the therapy room and create barriers for patients talking about their sexual health.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Eliza Boquin, LMFT As a Licensed Psychotherapist, Relationship & Sexuality Expert, Eliza Boquin works with couples & individuals to overcome past traumas, emotional pain, and destructive relationship patterns so they can begin to enjoy more healthy, satisfying, and pleasure-filled lives.
You can find her working with clients at her private practice in Houston, TX, hosting workshops, and at public speaking events helping people gain the skills to reach their life & relationship goals.
She is also an active mental health advocate & co-founder of Melanin & Mental Health, LLC which promotes mental health awareness in the Black & Latinx communities. She & her business partner, Eboni Harris, are changing the face of therapy with their website, national therapist directory, Between Sessions podcast and "Therapy is Dope" merchandise.
She has also been featured in Cosmopolitan, Men's Health, Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, Fatherly, Bustle, ThriveWorks, Good Therapy, Stylecaster, Business Insider, Houstonia Magazine, and on Houston's Amazing 102.5 FM, and KBXX 97.9 FM - The Box.E
In this episode we talk about: * Eliza’s story and how she got into sex therapy * How trauma, shame, misinformation can impact sexual health * The importance of removing shame and judgment from conversations about sex * How to address the absence of sex in relationship therapy * Opening conversations that are safe and non-shaming about sex, in the assessment * What therapists miss when they don’t bring sex up with their clients * The problem with pathologizing sexual concerns * Typical therapist training around sex * The importance of education and normalization * The types of life events that can impact sex life * Additional training for therapists to understand all kinds of sex * The types of phone calls a sex therapist might get * The amount of misinformation, sexpectations * The faulty expectation that partners should know what to do * The challenge of not knowing what turns you on, being disconnected from one’s body * Societal expectations that impact the sexual experience * The shame about bodies entering the sexual relationship * Exploring sexual education stories, cultural impacts, messages about sex * How people respond to sex therapists * What therapists get wrong about sex * The impact of bias and the medical model * Sex positivity, inclusion
Our Generous Sponsor: SimplePractice SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant, fully integrated EHR for health and wellness professionals in private practice. It consistently ranks as the “#1 Most Popular Mental Health Software” on Capterra, and has collected over $2.8 billion in revenue for its customers. SimplePractice offers features like paperless intakes, automated billing for self pay and insurance, free appointment reminders, secure messaging, telehealth, and more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1 (equivalent to a $50 credit). Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only and does not include product add-ons.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Esther Perel
University of Michigan Sexual Health Certificate Program
American Association of Sexual Educators, Counselors, and Therapists (AASECT)
Eliza’s practice: The Relationship and Sexual Wellness Center (trswc.com)
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elizagboquin/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/elizagboquin
Twitter: https://twitter.com/elizagboquin
Melanin & Mental Health
Relevant Episodes: Let’s Talk About Sex
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about money. We look at the financial needs of therapists, the perspective of clients and the public that we charge too much OR that we should not want money; the common martyrdom expectation that can negatively impact therapists and the profession.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Controversy about therapists wanting money * What is expected of therapists - martyrdom and a vow of poverty? * Financial stability and needs of therapists * The consumer perspective – am I just a paycheck? Or do you really want to help me? * The importance of your WHY * The perspective of the profession based on how much money is charged by most professionals * Providing a social/relational service for money - Are we “emotional prostitutes?” * The difficulty in assigning monetary value on what we do * The goodness of our hearts and the sympathetic plea of our clients * The difficulty in demonstrating and describing the value of therapy * The challenge of fee setting in private practice * The dynamics of insurance or social service programs impacting the clinical relationship * The common questions – Am I just a paycheck? Am I important enough to help? * The danger of therapy becoming transactional, especially when you’re burned out and under compensated * Therapist perspective on making money, especially given the lower paid and unpaid work at the beginning of the career * How the profession’s current set up impacts therapists’ ability to make money * Comparison to other similar professions (like doctors) – both in their training and career trajectory, looking at why they end up making more * The sliding scale problem - Are we rescuing our clients? * The shame of having financial needs * Self-worth being conflated with fee-setting * Exercise of thinking/feeling into your fee vs practical fee setting based on financial needs * The need for therapists to figure this out, so they can become more comfortable with making sufficient money to sustain their careers!
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice
Trusted by over 40,000 customers, SimplePractice creates software and services for health and wellness professionals. Its EHR empowers practices to run their businesses more efficiently, streamlining administrative tasks, enabling regulatory compliance, and improving documentation.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Become a Group Guru
Learn how to fill a group in private practice without coffee dates or networking events, even if no one in your community knows your name yet and you have no idea where to start. Free trainings and resources (like a free 5-day group jump start guide with your step-by-step plan to creating the group your ideal clients are ready to enroll in today) at www.becomeagroupguru.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Facebook Ad: Still Dreaming of Being a 6 Figure Therapist?
Katie Read
Article: How much money do you need to be happy?
Facebook Live with Tiffany McLain
Study from California Bar Association: Pessimism for the future
Michael Blumberg, LCPC
Tiffany McLain – Hey Tiffany!
Therapy Reimagined 2018: Ben Caldwell - Saving Psychotherapy
Saving Psychotherapy (Book) by Dr. Ben Caldwell
Casey Truffo
Citation: Crain, A. (2016). Understanding the impact of unpaid internships on college student career development and employment outcomes. NACE Journal.
Relevant Episodes: Who Gets to Have Therapy?
Tiffany McLain: Making Bank as a Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Debi Frankle, LMFT on how therapists can navigate when clients die. We look at what to do when clients die by suicide, die based on high risk lifestyles, or long-term illnesses. We also talk about the complicated emotions that therapists face in this isolated grief.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Debi Frankle, LMFT Debi Jenkins Frankle is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Grief Specialist and Trainer. Debi has been working with grievers for over 25 years. She and husband, Mark Frankle LMFT, are the co-founders of the Calabasas Counseling and Grief Recovery Center. Debi is the founder of Private Practice Grief Workshops and Trainings for Mental Health Professionals as well as the FB group for therapists: Private Practice Grief.
Debi’s areas of expertise are grief and trauma. Debi has led trainings for grief counseling professionals throughout the United States and Canada. Debi is a past president of San Fernando Valley chapter of CAMFT, past committee co-chair of the Crisis Response Network for SFV CAMFT and a member of the Association for Death Education (ADEC).
In her spare time, she plays in dirt and hangs out with dogs (and her husband too!).
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists can handle when a client dies by suicide * Legal and logistical considerations * The importance of grounding yourself and seeking out consultation with a trusted colleague * The stigma leading to therapists avoiding disclosing when clients die by suicide * Considerations in contacting the family of the client and how to handle the conversation * The complicated emotions that therapists can face as professionals and as grievers * Deciding to go to the funeral * The isolated grief that therapists face * How grief can be different when a client dies by something preventable, or something they caused - disenfranchised grief or discounted grief * The uniqueness of the therapist’s response * The different types of losses and the reactions we have to them * The emotional reactions that therapists should allow in treatment (and should not allow) * The importance of doing your own work regarding your own losses * How therapists can defer the conversations in treatment away from the necessary grief work * How to manage the rest of the caseload when you’ve experienced a personal loss or a client has died * The modeling we can do for our clients * What happens when your therapy dog dies and how to manage that with your clients * The work we need to do to be better at working with grief overall
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Trusted by over 40,000 customers, SimplePractice creates software and services for health and wellness professionals. Its EHR empowers practices to run their businesses more efficiently, streamlining administrative tasks, enabling regulatory compliance, and improving documentation.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Become a Group Guru Learn how to fill a group in private practice without coffee dates or networking events, even if no one in your community knows your name yet and you have no idea where to start. Free trainings and resources (like a free 5-day group jump start guide with your step-by-step plan to creating the group your ideal clients are ready to enroll in today) at www.becomeagroupguru.com.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
privatepracticegrief.com
Private Practice Grief Facebook Group
Relevant Episodes: Jill Johnson-Young, LCSW: Death, Dying, and Grief
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Debi Frankle, LMFT on how therapists can navigate when clients die. We look at what to do when clients die by suicide, die based on high risk lifestyles, or long-term illnesses. We also talk about the complicated emotions that therapists face in this isolated grief.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Debi Frankle, LMFT Debi Jenkins Frankle is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Grief Specialist and Trainer. Debi has been working with grievers for over 25 years. She and husband, Mark Frankle LMFT, are the co-founders of the Calabasas Counseling and Grief Recovery Center. Debi is the founder of Private Practice Grief Workshops and Trainings for Mental Health Professionals as well as the FB group for therapists: Private Practice Grief.
Debi’s areas of expertise are grief and trauma. Debi has led trainings for grief counseling professionals throughout the United States and Canada. Debi is a past president of San Fernando Valley chapter of CAMFT, past committee co-chair of the Crisis Response Network for SFV CAMFT and a member of the Association for Death Education (ADEC).
In her spare time, she plays in dirt and hangs out with dogs (and her husband too!).
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists can handle when a client dies by suicide * Legal and logistical considerations * The importance of grounding yourself and seeking out consultation with a trusted colleague * The stigma leading to therapists avoiding disclosing when clients die by suicide * Considerations in contacting the family of the client and how to handle the conversation * The complicated emotions that therapists can face as professionals and as grievers * Deciding to go to the funeral * The isolated grief that therapists face * How grief can be different when a client dies by something preventable, or something they caused - disenfranchised grief or discounted grief * The uniqueness of the therapist’s response * The different types of losses and the reactions we have to them * The emotional reactions that therapists should allow in treatment (and should not allow) * The importance of doing your own work regarding your own losses * How therapists can defer the conversations in treatment away from the necessary grief work * How to manage the rest of the caseload when you’ve experienced a personal loss or a client has died * The modeling we can do for our clients * What happens when your therapy dog dies and how to manage that with your clients * The work we need to do to be better at working with grief overall
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Trusted by over 40,000 customers, SimplePractice creates software and services for health and wellness professionals. Its EHR empowers practices to run their businesses more efficiently, streamlining administrative tasks, enabling regulatory compliance, and improving documentation.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Become a Group Guru Learn how to fill a group in private practice without coffee dates or networking events, even if no one in your community knows your name yet and you have no idea where to start. Free trainings and resources (like a free 5-day group jump start guide with your step-by-step plan to creating the group your ideal clients are ready to enroll in today) at www.becomeagroupguru.com.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
privatepracticegrief.com
Private Practice Grief Facebook Group
Relevant Episodes: Jill Johnson-Young, LCSW: Death, Dying, and Grief
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about therapists’ responsibility for mental health access and the (sometimes moral) decision about whether one focuses on income or providing treatment to all. We look at a living wage, the mental health system, entrepreneurship, and capitalism.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Is mental health access a universal right? * Group Practice Owner’s Summit 2019 where Katie got some wild ideas, especially during the talk by Maureen Werrbach and Michael Blumberg: Mental Health Access as a Human Right * The moral dilemma regarding raising your fees to the point that you are only working with people who can afford it * The extremes of martyrdom and pure entrepreneurship/capitalism * Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs as a place to assess where we identify human rights * The distinction of the system providing mental health access and individuals providing this access * Homelessness, mental illness, and addiction * Where systems and social services are best able to take care of mental health and other concerns * Larger mission and vision of how to impact the world * Taking care of your needs as a therapist/person first before society * The systemic issue of not providing all therapists a living wage and therapists needing to go into entrepreneurship to survive * The potential impact of universal mental healthcare on entrepreneurship and the field * The concern about stagnation and stifled innovation * The power of passion and motivation in the work * Finding creative ways to increase access, while not negatively impacting your bottom line * How to make individual decisions about mental health access versus the therapist’s individual income * Self-actualization - #topofthepyramid * How the system impacts which therapists are able to continue practicing * Draw bridge effect of later career therapists not treating newer therapists how they wished they were treated * Locus of Control impacting decision-making * The poor treatment of employees, low wages as contributing factors * The system impacts on people at all levels * Basic Needs - #bottomofthepyramid * Profit First versus clients who do not bring revenue in * Beyond Basic Needs - #middleofthepyramid * The salary needs that connects to optimal happiness * Questions about how to address these concerns and which to address first
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice
Trusted by over 40,000 customers, SimplePractice creates software and services for health and wellness professionals. Its EHR empowers practices to run their businesses more efficiently, streamlining administrative tasks, enabling regulatory compliance, and improving documentation.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Become a Group Guru
Learn how to fill a group in private practice without coffee dates or networking events, even if no one in your community knows your name yet and you have no idea where to start. Free trainings and resources (like a free 5-day group jump start guide with your step-by-step plan to creating the group your ideal clients are ready to enroll in today) at www.becomeagroupguru.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Group Practice Owner’s Summit 2020
Article 2005 Annapolis Coalition: An Action Plan for Behavioral Health Workforce Development
Ben Caldwell: Saving Psychotherapy
Mike Michalosicz: Profit First
Daniel Pink: Drive
Relevant Episodes: Interview with Maureen Werrbach: Becoming a Group Practice Owner
The Burnout System
Trauma Informed Work Place
All Kinds of Burnout
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Kristin Martinez, LMFT, about how trauma informed practices apply to the workplace. Curt and Katie talk with Kristin about her person-centered management, the benefits of treating employees well, and the risks of managing individuals as though they were cogs in a machine.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kristin Martinez, LMFT Kristin Martinez is a licensed therapist who developed a process of management coined: Person Centered Management. She developed Person Centered Management through her own experience and expertise in trauma informed psychotherapy and being a leader in several organizations. Kristin owns a consulting firm and a group therapy practice. Prior to being a business owner, Kristin spent over 10 years in the mental health field as case worker, therapist, and administrator in private, contracted, and government entities. She has experience as a Director in Logistics prior to entering the field of mental health and knows the power of good teaming. In this episode we talk about: * The idea of best practices for workplaces – Trauma Informed Workplaces, Person-centered management * How Kristin came to identify the need for trauma informed practices not just with clients, but with the therapists and workforce as well * Looking at the community mental health perspective * How current practices lead to burnout at all levels * How to introduce best practices into public mental health * The importance of treating employees as people and developing real relationships with employees * A primer on trauma informed perspective * Look at context of behavior in order to address things like timeliness * The idea of “therapy for the work place” * Best practices for supervising and managing * The myth that this type of work that focuses on the individual takes more time * The risk of burnout and turnover for workplaces that don’t take care of their people * How to introduce these concepts into the classroom * How to infuse hope into the option of working in community mental health * The importance of boundaries, asking for help, understanding expectations * The attempts of these agencies to improve employee engagement and supporting the staff to stay longer * The danger of the silos that different clinicians can be in (i.e., community mental health, private practice, other types of treatment centers) * The benefit of connection with other therapists * How processing your own stuff, making sure to consult, and taking time for self-care needs to be incorporated into a trauma-informed workplace * Suggestions for group or solo practice owners to incorporate these best practices * How Kristin puts her money where her mouth is, in her group practice * Looking at how the workplace can impact each individual, looking at trauma responses for everyone involved (every client, every employee, everyone) * Kristin believes that therapists are too focused on behavior and symptom reduction * The importance of training all staff within interdisciplinary teams, taking care of all staff at levels * The hope of transforming workplaces to make our career more sustainable
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice Trusted by over 40,000 customers, SimplePractice creates software and services for health and wellness professionals. Its EHR empowers practices to run their businesses more efficiently, streamlining administrative tasks, enabling regulatory compliance, and improving documentation.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Become a Group Guru Learn how to fill a group in private practice without coffee dates or networking events, even if no one in your community knows your name yet and you have no idea where to start. Free trainings and resources (like a free 5-day group jump start guide with your step-by-step plan to creating the group your ideal clients are ready to enroll in today) at www.becomeagroupguru.com.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Kristin’s Consulting Website
Kristin’s Group Practice: Pax Therapy and Family Services
SAMHSA Trauma-Informed Care
Relevant Episodes: Toxic Work Environments
The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout Machine
Connect with us: The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about generational differences in therapists, looking at perceptions (and misperceptions) about Millennials We look at how these differences impact therapy workplaces, supervision, and the future of our field.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Whether or not Curt is a Millennial * Looking at how millennials show up as employees and entrepreneurs * Generational differences in therapists * Common complaint of millennials being entitled * Living life now versus earning your stripes and waiting on retirement * The Four-Hour Work Week * Curt’s theory that Millennials have perfected the dream of the Gen X-ers * The impact of technology on growing up in different generations * Looking at the impact of the recession on the perspective on how to navigate work * The “young upstart” mythology that gets under Boomers’ skin * Gaining confidence earlier due to the access to immense amounts of data that wasn’t around when X-ers and Boomers were growing up * Teaching as equals versus teaching as a superior, looking at collaborative learning * The difference between therapy as work and other professions * The further we remove the therapist from having creativity and ownership from the work, the less value they will get from the work. * The importance of real application of concepts in our education * The tension of enough structured guidance versus enough collaboration/empowerment * Avoiding the helicoptering (supervision, management, etc.) * How technology is impacting the work * The importance of grounding innovation in laws, ethics, and clinical excellence * How coaching might impact our profession, whether there is harm with people jumping to coaching without credentials or training * Instagram Therapists * Different goals for different generations, namely the scourge of selling out * Whether or not Gen X-ers have actually sold old * How things have changed in marketing and how that has impacted newer therapists * When you can claim “expert” status * How strong entrepreneurs can potentially harm the profession
Our Generous Sponsors: SimplePractice
Trusted by over 40,000 customers, SimplePractice creates software and services for health and wellness professionals. Its EHR empowers practices to run their businesses more efficiently, streamlining administrative tasks, enabling regulatory compliance, and improving documentation.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Become a Group Guru
Learn how to fill a group in private practice without coffee dates or networking events, even if no one in your community knows your name yet and you have no idea where to start. Free trainings and resources (like a free 5-day group jump start guide with your step-by-step plan to creating the group your ideal clients are ready to enroll in today) at www.becomeagroupguru.com.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss
Saving Psychotherapy by Ben Caldwell
Relevant Episodes: Is CBT Crap?
All Kinds of Burnout
The Dividing Line Between Coaching and Therapy
The Brand Called You
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Paul Puri, M.D., about how we can make therapy better. Curt and Katie interview Dr. Puri about how technology and better clinical training can improve therapy outcomes as well as the responsibility we have as experts to impact social change through education and art.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Paul R. Puri, M.D., Psychiatrist, TV Writer, CMO of OOTify Dr. Puri is a psychiatrist, TV writer, and an entrepreneur. In his private practice in Los Angeles, he practices multiple forms of psychotherapy, including hypnosis, in addition to managing medications. He attended medical school at University of Rochester, and specialty training in psychiatry at UC San Diego. He is currently a clinical Assistant Professor at UCLA, and the president-elect of the Psychiatric Clinical Faculty Association. In his non-clinical time, he consults and writes for TV, and is the Chief Medical Officer for an online mental health hub, OOTify -- OOTify.com
In this episode we talk about: * How Paul has found the different ways that he is helping transform mental health * The history of psychotherapy and psychiatry and how training changed to match the reimbursement model * How psychiatry training is shifting to reflect the modern needs * How therapy is changing, how technology is entering into the picture, and what is driving research and evidence-based treatments * The importance of therapist matching in the success of treatment (and how machine learning can help this process) * The internal work that therapists have to do to improve their clinical work * The importance of getting different perspectives to become the therapist you are supposed to be rather than becoming a duplicate of your supervisor * How Paul is trying to represent our field accurately and well in his writing on Chicago Med * The impact of entertainment on mental health stigma * The social responsibility of having a larger microphone or platform * How much to push beyond the current reality to effect social change * How we make therapy and therapists better * The noise that has developed in the “personal branding” era of private practice * The responsibility we have to help potential clients find the best fit – and how we are frequently failing at it * The problem with only seeking out “evidence-based” treatment without considering what the evidence means * How to move outside the office and add your voice to the social landscape * The Public Health responsibility we have to educate with the expertise we have * The balance of making sure you’re not weighing in unsolicited, but rather strategically * The nuance of talking about your knowledge without over-disclosing, breaking ethical and legal guidelines, or speaking outside your scope
Our Generous Sponsors: This episode is sponsored by Center For Discovery.
Center For Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Paul’s Website
OOTify
Chicago Med
Article: Where is the Evidence for “Evidence-Based” Therapy?
Relevant Episodes:
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Getting the Supervision You Want
The Brand Called You
Bad Marketing Decisions
Millennials and Telehealth
Connect with us:
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about why mass shootings happen. We look at the complexity of the research and how solely blaming mental illness, doesn’t reflect the research and is stigmatizing. We also talk about how to identify risks and what to do to try to prevent violence.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Looking at why Mass Shootings happen * Defining Mass Shooting * The harm that blaming mass shootings on mental illness can cause – stigma, lack of seeking mental health treatment * The limitations and complexity of the research * The dehumanization of others and the role that it can play in the violence * Attribution Model, low self-esteem, moving out to fringe groups, radicalization * Developmental factors including parenting, culture, gender, coercion, history of violence * The difficulty with learning from sound bites * The role of violent media, video games * The importance of differentiating correlation from causation * The most important factor: access to guns * “Aggrieved Entitlement” leading to seeking revenge in a violent way for a perceived or actual victimization * Multi-systemic solutions and what therapists can do to address the situation * Compassion, listening, and connection as a way to intervene prior to radicalization * Seeing from a different perspective than what is “acceptable” for you, to help to build alliance and open opportunities for challenging violent beliefs * Clarifying therapy versus threat assessment * Fighting Fascism in the world and in the therapy room
Our Generous Sponsors: This episode is sponsored by Center For Discovery.
Center For Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
This is episode is also sponsored by Simplified SEO.
Thank you to our generous sponsor, Simplified SEO Consulting. Do you have a beautiful website that just doesn’t rank very well on Google? Simplified SEO Consulting can help! Jessica Tappana, LCSW and a team of SEO Specialists focus exclusively on helping mental health professionals improve their website rankings on Google so you can get in front of more clients! Jessica’s team goes in depth to edit your website in a way search engines will respond to, while also encouraging you to maintain your own voice and branding. Simplified SEO Consulting offers both SEO training for motivated practice owners who want to learn to manage their own SEO as well as "done for you" services for therapists who are too busy and are ready to hire someone to invest the time into getting their website ranking. Simplified SEO Consulting is offering a FREE 7-day SEO e-mail series to help you learn the basic components that can help you get your website to the top of search engines! If you're interested in learning more about search engine optimization, you can head over to www.simplifiedseoconsulting.com/moderntherapist to sign up!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Tons of articles:
Gun Ownership and Attribution Theory
APA Statement on Shootings at Dayton and El Paso
NAMI Statement on Mass Shootings in Texas and Ohio
APA Report on Gun Violence Prevention
SAMHSA Bulletin on Mass Violence
Reading on Fascism
NYT: What Experts Know About Mass Shootings
Washington Post: Mentall Illness, Video Games, and Gun Violence
Why Mental Illness Can’t Predict Mass Shootings
Serious Mental Illness and Mass Shootings
NAMI – Mental Illness and Gun Reporting Laws
Thanks to James Guay, LMFT for sourcing some articles for us!
Relevant Episodes:
On the APA Guidelines for Boys and Men
Episode with Dr. Joel Schwartz
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how to take care of your clients, your communities, and yourself after a mass shooting. We look at the types of victims, the different stages of response, and treatment considerations.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Responding to the recent Mass Shootings * The different roles that therapists can be expected to play after a Mass Shooting incident * The types of victims of these events (from victims radiating out to people who are learning about these events on social media) * The different stages of trauma response – and the caution to not assume everyone will end up with PTSD * Who is at risk for Post-traumatic Stress Disorder * The different factors that can lead to an emotional response to the shooting, regardless of how close you are to the incident * The importance of Psychological First Aid (and how Critical Incident Stress Debriefing can be harmful) * Vicarious and Re-traumatization, triggers, no response * The impact of previous traumas * The importance of community supports and types of community interventions * Looking at how to assess boundaries and be part in the community healing * Post-Traumatic Growth and finding meaning, purpose * How often those with mental illness diagnoses might feel stigmatized when they are scape-goated and should also be supported * How the role that therapists play can impact therapists * The careful assessment of how you can help and what you can offer to people impacted by these events * Important self-care reminders for therapists
Our Generous Sponsors: This episode is sponsored by Center For Discovery.
Center For Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
This is episode is also sponsored by My Solution Services.
My Solution Services is more than your typical VA. With over 13 years of experience in Mental Health, they specialize in working with professional clinicians all over the US and Canada. My Solutions Services, Inc provides Online Business Management (OBM) and Certified Professional Practice Building Coaching for therapists. They help with the daily tasks of running the business side of private practice - everything on the outside of the therapy room! Working with therapists around the world they provide the assistance you need that is customized to your practice. Visit out their website for resources and information on building your solo or group practice at mysolutionservices.com
AND they have a special gift for you...here is The Ultimate Guide to Outsourcing in your Private/Group practice. With over 200 items here, you don't have to do the daily tasks of running your business on your own ever again! Get your guide at: https://mysolutionservices.com/ultimate-guide/
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Tons of articles:
SAMHSA Bulletin on Mass Violence
America Society of Evidence Based Policing: The Harmful Effects of Critical Incident Stress Debriefing
Disaster Relief.Org Psychological First Aid
National Child Traumatic Stress Network Psychological First Aid
APA "What happens to the survivors"
The Mental Health Consequences of Mass Shootings - Sarah R. Lowe, Sandro Galea
Trauma Resiliency Model and Community Resiliency Model
Heather Littleton response to Virginia Tech shooting
Andrew Smith Virginia Tech
Response at UCSB
APA Statement on Shootings at Dayton and El Paso
NAMI Statement on Mass Shootings in Texas and Ohio
Ben Caldwell Labs Marketing Therapy After Disasters
APA Report on Gun Violence Prevention
Red Cross Trainings
Relevant Episodes:
Managing Vicarious Trauma
Compassion Fatigue
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC, about how therapy has been whitewashed and biased for a very long time. Curt and Katie talk with Jeff about his efforts to use his privilege to increase inclusion and diversity and to shine a light on biases that we all hold.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jeff Guenther, LPC Jeff Guenther, LPC, is a therapist in Portland, OR. He has been in private practice since 2005. Jeff is the creator and owner of Portland Therapy Center, a highly ranked therapist directory. He also hosts a podcast called Say More About That about trending mental health topics. Jeff has launched a new progressive therapist directory at TherapyDen that fights racism, homophobia, transphobia and all other forms of discrimination. Sign up for a profile at TherapyDen and get your first six months free.
In this episode we talk about: * Jeff’s entrepreneurship and his focus on creating access for mental health * Therapy directories and how he came to identify the need to use the directory to fight against racism, transphobia, homophobia, etc. * Using privilege for good and to support inclusion and access for mental health services * Looking at the controversy in developing a progressive therapist directory * The goal to be inclusive, not solely politically progressive * White privilege and bias * The problems with Psychology Today and how this directory is slowly seeming to respond and start addressing racial and gender diversity * The white washing of therapy and the fight to increase access and diversity * Understanding the bias that is being reinforced by Disney Movies * How bias can show up in the therapy room, your marketing, and in your intake * Addressing systemic bias * The history of therapy and how it continues to influence bias * Looking at how implicit bias can be addressed by individual therapists * The biases that are less understood or addressed * The responsibility of therapists to actively work toward societal inclusion * The ability to change things in one generation
Our Generous Sponsor: This episode is sponsored by Center For Discovery.
Center For Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Racism in Psychology Today
Psychology Today Magazine Loves White People…
TherapyDen
Say More About That Podcast
TherapyDen Blogs
From TherapyDen: 12 Ways White Therapists Can (and Should) Use Their Privilege to Help People of Color
Contact Jeff: hello@therapyden.com
Relevant Episodes:
Health At Every Size
Therapy is Dope
Let’s Talk About Race
Let’s Talk About Race Again
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the different types of burnout. We look at the differences between employee and entrepreneur burnout, including how to prevent it and how to treat it.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The difference between burnout for employees and entrepreneurs * How the different nature of how we work impacts how/why we burn out * Employee burnout: cog in the machine, dehumanization, lack of agency * Entrepreneur burnout: hustling for income, decision fatigue, facing change with rigidity * How to prevent the different types of burnout * The importance for putting systems in place to decrease the tendency for entrepreneurial burnout * When passion and obsessive efforts can also cause burnout * The danger of having a lack of balance between passion and rest or personal life * Types of burnout – overload, underchallenged, neglect * Moral Injury, locus of control, and the impact of unhealthy work environments * The challenges of having to work outside of our “zone of genius” in starting a private practice * Different types of shame related to impostor syndrome, “hobby practice,” charging too much * How excuses can get in the way * Ideas on how to address burnout
Our Generous Sponsor: This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant all in one practice management platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system, and do so much more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Tons of articles:
https://www.mindgarden.com/maslach-burnout-inventory/686-mbi-manual-print.html
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/02/ce-corner
https://www.apa.org/education/ce/1360484
https://www.apa.org/helpcenter/road-resilience
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/tracking-wonder/201601/why-entrepreneurs-burn-out-and-what-do-about-it
https://www.inc.com/melody-wilding/3-types-of-burnout-according-to-psychologists-and-signs-youre-headed-for-trouble.html
https://hbr.org/2018/04/what-makes-entrepreneurs-burn-out
https://www.inc.com/melody-wilding/3-types-of-burnout-according-to-psychologists-and-signs-youre-headed-for-trouble.html
https://www.psychotherapynotes.com/self-care-is-great-if-you-can-afford-it/
Relevant Episodes:
The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout Machine
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Patrice Douglas, LMFT, talking about mental health stigma in the Black Community. Curt and Katie talk with Patrice about how she is working to decrease stigma and increase access to competent treatment for African Americans.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Patrice N. Douglas, LMFT, CAMS-I Patrice N. Douglas is a licensed therapist, Certified Anger Management Specialist, and Certified Parent Child Interaction Therapist in California and Texas. She is currently a doctoral candidate at The Chicago School of Professional Psychology in Los Angeles. She is the owner of Empire Counseling & Consultation located in CA, NY, and TX where she specializes in anger management, men’s issues, minority mental health, as well as parenting. Patrice is passionate about decreasing stigmas in minority communities by curating initiatives such a t-shirt campaign that spreads awareness about mental health as well as uses the profits to pay for therapy for those who can’t afford it as well as low cost workshops. She has been featured in Bustle, HelloGiggles, Therapy For Black Girls, and other platforms discussing the various topics surrounding mental health.
In this episode we talk about: * Mental Health Advocacy within the Black Community * Reducing Mental Health Stigma * How awesome Patrice’s Instagram is * The pros and cons about social media and how you can use it to decrease mental health stigma * Patrice’s Infographics and how she has used them (and the response that she has gotten) * The way Patrice has used social media to provide education and has gotten a lot of visibility * Culturally specific impacts of mental health concerns – historical context, religion, lack of trust * Barriers to Mental Health Treatment for African American Clients including cultural mistrust * The impact of slavery, experimentation, institutionalization on access and perspective * The importance of understanding cultural differences, stereotypes, privilege, bias * Advice for Allies – hold space, consultation, understand required competence * Post-Traumatic Slave Syndrome – intergenerational trauma from slavery impacting the current generation of Black people * The movement that Patrice is starting to increase awareness and decrease stigma – through t-shirts, infographics * The importance of consultation, cultural humility, historical context
Our Generous Sponsors: This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant all in one practice management platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system, and do so much more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
This is episode is also sponsored by Brighter Vision. What’s the point of having a beautiful website if it doesn’t attract the clients you want to see? As the World Wide leaders of website design for therapists, Brighter Vision sees this issue happen way too often. A nice-looking website doesn’t equate to a successful website. The truth is, your current website might even be turning off potential clients.
That’s where Brighter Vision comes in. Brighter Vision’s team of website designers will create you a website that is centered around attracting and retaining your ideal client. So that you can have a nice-looking website as well as a successful one.
To save $120 on your first year, head on over to www.brightervision.com/therapyreimagined.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Patrice’s Infographics:
6 Signs of Depression in Black Men
6 Signs of Anxiety in Black Women
Dr. Joy Degruy
Post-Traumatic Slave Syndrome
Connecting with Patrice:
Therapy Saves Lives T-Shirts
Instagram: ThePatriceNicole
Facebook: www.facebook.com/patricendouglas
Twitter: patricendouglas
Websites: www.patricendouglas.com www.empirecounseling.net
Relevant Episodes:
Let’s Talk About Race
Let’s Talk About Race Again
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about haters, heated online discourse that seems to delight in shaming other therapists, Schadenfreude, and the laziness of taking other people down while squandering the opportunity for creativity and positive discourse.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The backlash from haters that is created when you step out as a therapist * The different theories: dehumanizing therapists, protecting the public from bad therapists, pushing back against innovation * Characterizing this dynamic as Schadenfreude (and defining it) * The irony that therapists are not showing positive, healthy communication online * How jealousy and impostor syndrome can show up * The ways that therapist training may contribute to these unhealthy conversations * Dehumanizing people into brands or when people become intertwined with their concept and the idea is humanized * The entitlement that people can feel when interacting with brands, forgetting that there are people behind these brands * The emotionality and righteousness in the communication * The act of bringing other people down in a public forum, rather than raising up own arguments * The plea to bring in alternative perspectives to add to the discourse, rather than focusing on taking the other person down * The laziness in just saying that you don’t like something, a passive “take down” * The reinforcement that trolls get (likes, comments, arguments) and a call to action to stop feeding the trolls * How the bystander role might be relevant * Responsibilities of original posters and commenters * The impact of social media on professional reputation * Curt’s plea to #CitetheStatute * The way that social media can feel like we’re talking to ourselves, or to people who are far removed and somehow not impacted by us * The lack of emotional resources that can impact how we engage with our community of therapists online * The possibilities when we are able to use these social networks for creativity and discourse
Our Generous Sponsor: This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant all in one practice management platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system, and do so much more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Scott Miller’s article on Breaking Down Trauma Treatment
The Science of Internet Trolls
Trolls Just Want to Have Fun
Is there a psychological reason for people being mean on the internet?
The Internet Trolls Have Won. Sorry, There’s Not Much You Can Do
Why Is Everyone on the Internet So Angry?
4 Reasons the Internet Has Made Everyone an Entitled…
Relevant Episodes:
Is CBT Crap?
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Ernesto Segismundo, Jr., M.S. LMFT about what it means to be “not your typical psychotherapist.” Curt and Katie talk with Ernesto about the overlap with the #moderntherapist and how to navigate the unique challenges of being different as a therapist.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Ernesto Segismundo, Jr. M.S. LMFT Ernesto Segismundo is a licensed marriage and family therapist. Ernesto received his undergraduate degree in psychology from Biola University and received his Masters of Science degree in Clinical Psychology from Vanguard University. Ernesto has over 10 years of clinical counseling experience working in settings such as group homes, domestic violence shelters, churches, and outpatient programs. Ernesto treats marriage and family relationship problems. Ernesto also treat individuals suffering from depression, anxiety and addiction.
Along with Ernesto’s counseling experience, he has conducted various classes and seminars concerning relationships and mental health related topics such as parenting, substance abuse, maintaining healthy marriages, private practice social media and video marketing and managed care practices.
Ernesto is currently an adjunct professor at Hope International University and owns a group practice called CAV Family Therapy with offices located in Huntington Beach and Fullerton California.
In this episode we talk about: * The return of Ernesto Segismundo * Ernesto’s vision for traveling continuing education * The Not Your Typical Psychotherapist Summit * What it means to be a “not the typical psychotherapist” and the cross-over with #moderntherapists * The difficulty with have “haters” when you break out of the norm * The challenge of trying to do something and then getting shamed for not doing “enough.” * The importance of finding support with people who get it * The big vision that puts you in front of a large audience and makes you vulnerable * What it means to be authentically yourself and keep putting yourself out there * How being yourself is the same as branding – you will attract and you will repel * The social proof that can strongly contribute to these movements * How these movements can contribute to improvements in mental health stigma, mental health access * The importance of celebrating differences and accepting each other as atypical therapists * The benefits and the draw backs of communication on social media * How to effect change or provide feedback to people who are in the public eye * The difficulty when someone is shamed on social media * How you can take care of yourself as someone who is willing to step outside of the box * An Alternate title: Congratulations you now have haters
Our Generous Sponsors: This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant all in one practice management platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system, and do so much more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined. You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
This is episode is also sponsored by Brighter Vision. What’s the point of having a beautiful website if it doesn’t attract the clients you want to see? As the World Wide leaders of website design for therapists, Brighter Vision sees this issue happen way too often. A nice-looking website doesn’t equate to a successful website. The truth is, your current website might even be turning off potential clients.
That’s where Brighter Vision comes in. Brighter Vision’s team of website designers will create you a website that is centered around attracting and retaining your ideal client. So that you can have a nice-looking website as well as a successful one.
To save $120 on your first year, head on over to www.brightervision.com/therapyreimagined.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
CAV Family Therapy
Fylmit.com
CAV Academy – Traveling CE Provider
2020 Kauai Continuing Education Retreat for Therapists Hosted by CAV Academy
Not The Typical Psychotherapist Summit in Florida 2020
Relevant Episodes:
Ernesto’s First Episode on Social Media Marketing
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how to successfully navigate the changes that occur during the summer when you’re in private practice. We look at how to plan for the whole year, sync your vacations with your clients, get business maintenance done during the summer, and make sure you’re incorporating your own self-care.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The change of pace that often happens when the summer hits * The importance of taking a bird’s eye view of the full year, rather than focusing month to month * How to set your fees to address the time off and missed sessions during the year * Planning your vacation at the same time that your clients will be out * The need to lead by example, showing self-care and boundaries * How to take advantage of down times, so that you are ready for the uptick when the fall hits * The types of assessments that you can do on your practice during the summer * How to move away from panic, by planning financially for the full year * The MTSG challenge: Catch up on your notes in July * Setting yourself up for a more lucrative practice with increasing fees or cleaning up practices * Taking vacations and getting your practice vacation ready * Vacation coverage and helping your practice stay responsive during your vacation * The joy of implementing your systems during the slower times (because it takes time) * The possibility of having a better schedule when the summer ends – assessing and moving to an ideal schedule after moving people around during the summer * Getting training during the summer, so you can actually implement it deliberately * Re-evaluating your personal routines and self-care/self-maintenance * Putting some effort into getting content (social media, blog posts, marketing, etc.) planned out and created * Capitalizing on the creative time out of the office * Evaluating your practice and your business planning
Our Generous Sponsor: This episode is sponsored by SimplePractice.
SimplePractice is a HIPAA compliant all in one practice management platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system, and do so much more.
Learn more by going to www.simplepractice.com/therapyreimagined . You can also sign up and receive a special promotion of getting 3 months of SimplePractice for the price of 1. Please note, this offer is valid for new customers only.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Profit First by Mike Michalowicz
When the Scientific Secrets fo Perfect Timing by Daniel H. Pink
Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert (Katie talked about fear riding in the car with you, which comes from this book)
Relevant Episodes:
Make Your Paperwork Meaningful with Dr. Maelisa Hall
Navigating the Holidays as a Therapist
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Marissa Lawton, Licensed Counselor, about creating your own business opportunities when you identify a need in your community (or yourself). Curt and Katie talk with Marissa about how to identify what type of entrepreneur you are, how to identify opportunities, and what to consider when adding these businesses to your therapy practice.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Marissa Lawton, Licensed Counselor and Scaling Strategist for the Solo-Therapist Marissa Lawton is a licensed counselor, national board-certified counselor, and member of the American Counseling Association. She is also a corporate-trained marketer, girlmom, and brand whisperer who lights up walking solo-therapists through aligned business building strategies. Marissa is the creator of Side Hustle Support Group, a 6-month mentorship that helps therapists capitalize on their experience and education and pair it with their innate stories and superpowers to scale both themselves and their practices through online income.
Her upcoming program, Baby Steps Beyond the Couch, teaches her 90-day methodology for therapists to make their first recurring $1000 in non-clinical revenue. Opening them up to the world of possibilities beyond seeing 1:1 clients. You can learn more about Marissa at marissalawton.com
In this episode we talk about: * Marissa’s background in corporate finance * What happened for Marissa when Lehman Brothers died and her husband was stationed in the middle of nowhere Alaska * How Marissa recreated herself when it became clear that she couldn’t have a conventional job * The entrepreneurial practice of finding a gap to fill and how therapists are actually at an advantage * The strengths that therapists bring to their work * How therapists can miss opportunities due to fear or lack of confidence * How to find your passion and what you need to share * When comparison can hold us back * How we can find needs in our communities, and figuring out * The Four Types of Entrepreneurs and the strengths of each * The need for transparency in business and how that impacts therapists * How to manage the power dynamic when you are a therapist and have another entrepreneurial pursuit * How to talk about determining where clients fit and how to navigate the dual relationships that can develop
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined 2019: The Modern Therapist Conference presented by SimplePractice
October 18 and 19th in Universal City, CA – Hang out with the cool #moderntherapists! We are sponsoring our own podcast because we are so excited about the conference!
Grab your continuing education for the year and get trained up on business building, diversity, technology, self-care and all-around amazing professional development this October! Come join us in-person for the same fun we bring to the podcast!!
Use the promo code MTSG50 to get $50 off your full conference ticket.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Jack Canfield The Success Principles
Marissa Lawton’s website
Road Map for Online Income
Empathy Rising Podcast
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how therapists can be called into action in their off time. We look at how being a therapist can impact our relationships, how to put boundaries around your therapist role, and the risks of crossing boundaries between personal and professional roles with your friends and family members.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The different things that therapists might complain about with their therapist friends * How to identify what role you play with the people in your life * How to not do therapy with your friends or others who are seeking “free therapy” * Limit-setting, navigating your loved one’s needs * Becoming a resource, not a therapist * Giving referrals, supporting connection * Specific tactics about how to avoid being the “counselor” for your friends and family members * The importance of empowering the people around you to soothe themselves * When it is hard to take off the therapist hat * Determining how you engage, what emotional energy you have to give after a therapy day * When you may decide to step across the line * Determining which role your friend or family member actually want you to play * How perspective-taking can start irritating the people in our lives and may even lead to you losing your sense of self and identity * The expectations that others can have of us * How to set the boundaries with your friends and family members * The impact of how the role we played in our family of origin can mean a bit role shift after we train to be a therapist * How being an emotional hub can impact you as a therapist in the room * When it is okay to use some of your therapist skills in your relationships * How compassion fatigue and bias can make you a less empathic to your loved ones
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined 2019: The Modern Therapist Conference presented by SimplePractice
October 18th and 19th in Universal City, CA – Hang out with the cool #moderntherapists! We are sponsoring our own podcast because we are so excited about the conference!
Grab your continuing education for the year and get trained up on business building, diversity, technology, self-care and all-around amazing professional development this October! Come join us in-person for the same fun we bring to the podcast!!
Use the promo code MTSG50 to get $50 off your full conference ticket.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Curt told you there weren’t any resources – why are you looking here?!?!?
But we did actually talk about The Spoon Theory
Relevant Episodes:
The Mental Load of Therapists
Connect with us!
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Jill Johnson-Young, LCSW about how we have been trained to handle grief wrong. Curt and Katie talk with Jill about what the Kubler-Ross model is useful for (and what it’s not) as well has how therapists can better deal with grief – for themselves and in their practice.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jill A. Johnson-Young, LCSW, Grief educator, and CEO of Central Counseling Services of Riverside and Murrieta Jill Johnson-Young, LCSW is a dynamic and engaging presenter. She is consistently noted for providing thorough and useful information to meet the needs of the audience. Professional and community seminars have returned reviews thanking her for being the best seminar of the conference, for being personable and including questions from the participants, and for both the lecture content and the interactive portions of the programs. Jill is available for presentations about the following issues:
- Grief and loss: all ages, all kinds of losses (pets, family, friends, chronic illness and sudden losses, hospice and what to expect, new ways to see grief, coping, how loss impacts the grieving person, others)
- Dementia: Losses, involved, coping for those with dementia and those impacted by it, recovery after a loss form dementia, family dynamics in coping with dementia
When she is not out speaking, which is one of Jill’s favorite parts of her career, she is the CEO and Clinical Director of Central Counseling Services in Riverside, California. She is a certified Grief Recovery Facilitator and specializes her private practice work in grief and loss, dementia, trauma, and adoption issues. She has more than a decade of experience with hospice and trains therapists and social workers in areas that include correctly treating childhood trauma, grief and loss, and dementia care. She holds a BA from UC Riverside and her MSW from the University of South Florida.
Jill is also the creator of Your Path Through Grief, which is a year-long, comprehensive grief support program which includes pages for therapists. She is also the author of Your Own Path Through Grief, a workbook for those in the grief process to work toward recovery, which can be used individually, in a group, or with a therapist. It is available on Amazon. She’s also the author of the children’s books Someone is sick- how do I say goodbye? and Someone I love Just Died: What happens now? Several books are in process, with publication expected later this year. Jill is a member of the Purple Cities coalition in Riverside and facilitates a dementia support group monthly.
In this episode we talk about: * Jill’s story and how she has been nicknamed the grief whisperer, the rebellious widow, and a black widow and how she is a grief rebel disruptor * How Elizabeth Kubler-Ross is used incorrectly – it was designed for anticipatory grief * The “common knowledge” about grief that is not really common knowledge * How our society commonly avoids death, dying, and grief – even therapists are afraid of funerals * What normalizing death can do to help your clients, especially children * The importance of integrating a lost loved one into your sense of self * The unexpected consequences of grief * Physical, cognitive, emotional, and relational effects of grief * Therapists’ responsibility when treating a griever * The concept of reconstructing your life after a loss * The differences between typical loss and traumatic loss * How people grieve differently, especially related to roles, development, family dynamics * Why to pull back from deifying the dead * How therapists can handle when their own grief comes up with grieving clients * What therapists (and all people) do wrong when interacting with a griever * How celebrities dying can impact our clients
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined 2019: The Modern Therapist Conference presented by SimplePractice
October 18 and 19th in Universal City, CA – Hang out with the cool #moderntherapists! We are sponsoring our own podcast because we are so excited about the conference!
Grab your continuing education for the year and get trained up on business building, diversity, technology, self-care and all-around amazing professional development this October! Come join us in-person for the same fun we bring to the podcast!!
Use the promo code MTSG50 to get $50 off your full conference ticket.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
www.centralcounselingservices
www.yourpaththroughgrief.com
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
Jill’s Books on Amazon
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about treatment teaming as a therapist. We look at why you should do it, things to consider, and what it looks like in different settings.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Treatment teams as the most effective way to work with clients * The education gap for people related to creating treatment teams * The difficulty with the model of the therapist being the primary agent for change * The different roles of treatment team members, especially as a therapist * The distinction between diagnosis for medical necessity and for the clinical case conceptualization * Specific things related to working with psychiatrists * The challenge related to perceived hierarchy within the profession * The value of having a treatment team leader and how to identify who should be the leader * The importance of having a lot of information and additional perspectives * The scope of practice considerations and how to talk with someone who has a different scope * Fragmented communication within treatment teams * Community Mental Health programs that require treatment teaming * The different way that we set up a treatment teams when we’re in private practice * Confidentiality and communication concerns when treatment teaming * How to interact with the other team members * The educational considerations related to treatment teaming * The “mercenary” reason to do treatment teaming
Our Generous Sponsor: Therapy Reimagined 2019: The Modern Therapist Conference presented by SimplePractice
October 18 and 19th in Universal City, CA – Hang out with the cool #moderntherapists! We are sponsoring our own podcast because we are so excited about the conference!
Grab your continuing education for the year and get trained up on business building, diversity, technology, self-care and all-around amazing professional development this October! Come join us in-person for the same fun we bring to the podcast!!
Use the promo code MTSG50 to get $50 off your full conference ticket.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Wraparound Services within Community Mental Health
Article: Hoge MA, Morris J, Daniels A, et al. (2007). An Action Plan on Behavioral Health Workforce Development. Rockville, Md, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration
Relevant Episodes:
In-Person Networking
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview Megan Costello, LMFT on taking the best of Community Mental Health into your private practice. Curt and Katie interview Megan about her very successful private practice that is 100% home and field-based. They talk about how to a field-based practice works, including practical considerations.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Megan Costello, LMFT Megan Costello, LMFT, is a person-centered behaviorist providing in-home counseling for families in Los Angeles. Megan has provided services to clients in their homes or the community for almost 15 years. Megan started her career as a behavioral technician, providing behavioral therapy under the supervision of Board Certified Behavior Analysts (BCBA) before she moved into a supervisory role for Applied Behavioral Analysis (ABA) cases (both in- home and school-based cases). Megan continued this work as she obtained her Masters of Science in Counseling at California State University, Long Beach. Megan then added clinical work in community mental health, providing specialized support to children on the autism spectrum with trauma histories. When Megan moved into private practice, she incorporated the best of the in-home and behavioral interventions into her treatment model. She brings practical advice and strategies to her clinical work, providing specialized, comprehensive treatment to higher needs or atypical cases.
In this episode we talk about: * Megan’s perspective and a new model for private practice * How to make applied behavioral analysis more person-centered * The value of being relentlessly client-centered and doing the highest impact work, regardless of how convenient to the therapist * The types of clients who would benefit more from in-home and school-based therapy * The benefits of in-home therapy over in-office therapy * The need to price your services accordingly * How to create an office in your car * How to manage your scheduling * The unique challenges of working in the home, looking at confidentiality, family involvement * The model that requires family and parent involvement * Safety assessments prior to going out to the home * How to assess over the phone prior to starting home-based treatment * Getting parent buy-in for active involvement in treatment for their child
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Megan’s website: https://www.megcostello.com/
Megan’s consultation: https://www.megcostello.com/consulting
AND WE HAVE A PICTURE OF MEGAN'S TRUNK ON THE WEBSITE!
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how we value our time, looking at time when we are generating revenue AND the time when we are not generating revenue.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The initial conversations about time: Curt’s FB post, Jo Muirhead’s Article * Philosophical musings about the value of time * Podcastception: a podcast sparked by a blog post which was sparked by one of our Facebook posts * The value of client hours above other hours * How to value non-revenue time * The types of non-revenue generating time * Valuing time in different ways * The importance of self-care hours for many of our listeners and the lesser value that Curt places on these type of hours * James Clear’s ideas on how to value time and figure out what time is worth to you (take home pay method, market rate method, cost-base method) * The monetary value of your hours versus other types of return on investment for you hour * Looking at scalability and how you value your time while investing into a new service or product * Decision-making when looking at whether hiring someone to do work for your business * The different types of time (self-care, self-maintenance, rest, creative, content creation, work time, maintenance, etc.) and the different types of return on investment for those types (monetary, increased efficiency, positioning, strategic advantage, fulfillment, meaning, purpose, sustainability, quality of life, mission-driven, connection, etc.) * The importance of balancing these types of time to avoid burnout or washout * The unique return of investment for each person * Future-proofing your work (being able to plan for sustained work and retirement) * Looking at your whole career when you think about how you do your work * Burnout or moral injury as risks for clinicians * When your value of time is off-balance, you start sacrificing different aspects – self, soul, quality of life * Looking at the idea of a time budget to help balance all the different types of time and the different types of return on investment * Implementing systems into your calendar to manage time and energy
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Curt’s Facebook Post on the value we place on time
Jo Muirhead’s Blog Post: What if Our Time Isn’t Valued in Monetary Terms
James Clear Blog on How to Track Money and Time
Daniel Pink’s book When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing
Relevant Episodes:
Jo Muirhead’s Podcast Episode: Clinician and Entrepreuner
Howard Spector’s Episode: Investing in Yourself as an Entrepreneur
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview Laura Westmoreland, LMFT on addressing body bias, body shaming, and health at every size (HAES) in therapy. Curt and Katie talk with Laura about the common mistakes that therapists make when working with clients living in larger bodies.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Laura Westmoreland, LMFT Laura Westmoreland, LMFT identifies as a white woman living in a larger body, cisgender, straight, and able-bodied; her pronouns are she/her. She acknowledges that she has white privilege.
She holds an MBA from Lindenwood University and a Masters in Clinical Counseling from Pacifica Graduate Institute. Her practice is grounded in Psychodynamic and Sensorimotor psychotherapies. She integrates supplemental theoretical interventions on a case-by-case basis; treatment is individualized and collaborative. Additionally, She is a Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor and a Certified Body Trust®Provider, and she follows Health At Every Size® Principles.
She works with individuals, couples, and families who want to explore what is holding them back from leading the life they desire; both personally and professionally. The key to her work is the relationship developed. Together with her clients, she can create a brave space; a brave space requires stepping out of your comfort zone, risking vulnerability, and being curious.
Laura believes...
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what we struggle with provides insight and can help us grow
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connection is key; reciprocal relationships require effort
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regularly engaging in pleasurable activities fosters joy and happiness
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in nourishing mind, body, and soul
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that self-compassion is vital to wellbeing
-
all bodies are good bodies
In this episode we talk about: * The importance of inclusion related to body diversity * What body bias looks like in a therapist office * Health At Every Size (HAES) * The challenges of living in a larger body * The war on obesity and walking into a war zone * The medicalization of body diversity with words like “overweight” and the pathologizing of different bodies * The danger of colluding with the diet culture * The controversy that exists within the eating disorder community related to HAES * Focusing on the client’s lived experience, rather than the societal expectations * Sorting through when larger bodies suggest symptomology of a mental health or trauma concern versus when someone is healthy in a larger body * Showing curiosity around what “feeling fat” means, rather than suggesting a diet or fix * The danger of prescribing to people living in larger bodies what we would treat in eating disorder clients (i.e., restriction) * How a clinician’s body bias can negatively impact treatment efficacy * Intuitive eating – paying attention to hunger and satiety cues * Joyful movement, rather than trudging to the gym * The importance of finding your healthy practices * Assessment best practices * Harvard Implicit Bias Tests * The different biases that Curt and Katie hold around body sizes * Bias and microaggressions that can show up in the therapist office * What therapists can look for when assessing whether clients feel comfortable in their own bodies
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Laura Westmoreland’s Website
FB: Laura Westmoreland Lmft
IG: haes_therapist_in_la
Twitter: @haestherapistla
Intuitive Eating Website
Be Nourished
Jeffery Hunger’s Publication
Harvard Implicit Bias Tests
(Association for Size Diversity and Health) ASDAH
Dr, Vincent Felitti talks about the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about evidence-based practices, clinician training, and when even the evidence base can go wrong.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How we know better than the evidence * The need for evidence-based practice in community mental health * Funding, efficiency, and diagnosis * The difference between the clientele in public mental health and private practice * Evidence-based practices pros and cons * The science, the efficacy, replicability of EBPs * The pros and cons of EBPs in community mental health * The need to include individual factors in EBPs * EBPs versus relational style (and how they may not be mutually exclusive) * The question about personality characteristics of CBT therapists * The opinion about rapport being missing from EBPs * How training jumps to EBP, to the detriment of the relationship * The problem with people who overuse or oversimplify the need for each orientation * Strong clinical orientation versus the “eclectic” or “integrative” psychotherapy * The Medical Model * The challenge of training therapists in relational skills and how to be a better therapist, rather than teaching specific handful of skills * The importance of proving efficacy, getting funding for services * Treatment decision-making and collaboration in public mental health versus private practice * The complexity of actual clients and the need for more than just one EBP to use for treatment * The problems with new clinician training related to EBPs
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Dr. Scott Miller: Feedback Informed Treatment
Dr. Ben Caldwell
Modern Community Mental Health: An Interdisciplinary Approach by Kenneth Yeager, David Cutler, Dale Svendsen, and Grayce M. Sills
Relevant Episodes:
Therapist Know Thyself
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview Joel Schwartz, PsyD on neurodiversity, Autism Spectrum Disorders, and neurodivergence. Curt and Katie talk with Joel about how often our natural spectrum of neurodiversity is pathologized.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Joel Schwartz, PsyD Dr. Joel Schwartz is a licensed clinical psychologist with a private practice in the South Bay of Los Angeles County. He specializes in therapy and testing for the misunderstood. As a therapist, he is warm, compassionate, and strongly humanistic, allowing for all the oddities and unexplored aspects of his clients to emerge and be validated. As a testing psychologist, Dr. Schwartz specializes in difficult and complex cases.
Dr. Schwartz grew up in Southern California. He developed an early interest in psychology, strangely enough, from a childhood filled with science fiction stories. These stories often provided fascinating looks into human psychology and the human spirit. Dr. Schwartz attended UCLA as an undergrad where he conducted research in the field of neurolinguistics. From there, he attended Yeshiva University’s Ferkauf School of Clinical Psychology for his Master’s and Doctorate degree. He has worked in various settings including colleges, clinics, a federal prison, and residential treatment centers. Through his experience with a vast array of individuals he has stuck with one important lesson among many; as the psychoanalyst Harry Stack Sullivan said, “We are all more human than otherwise.”
In this episode we talk about: * The problem of the medical model * Looking at neurodiversity as a spectrum and a natural part of life * Defining neurodiversity and neurodivergence * Looking at differences as okay, and not disordered * Traditional versus neurodiversity affirmative practices * The strain of compensatory behaviors when one is neurodivergent and trying to fit in * Problematic assumptions that do not welcome neurodivergent folks * Practical ways to create an office that supports the full spectrum of neurodiversity * The importance of clear instructions, options, and sensitivity to the different * Radical acceptance * The freedom and relief of not having to learn, when everything is explained. * The debate about ABA and behavioral interventions * The social justice aspects of working with neuro-minorities * The importance of representation of neurodivergent people in all aspects of society * Autistic people are demanding representation, are consulting, and are acting in roles * Looking at the nuance of radical acceptance – when intervention is required, rather than acceptance * The problem of behaviorism leading to repression and dissociation * Having the goal of decreasing a behavior, shouldn’t be the final goal * The problems of having ABA therapists not address their own emotions * The problem with having neurotypical people setting goals for neurodivergent people * Looking at the invalidation of modifying behaviors * How to balance what society will accept as well as validating the person * How do we set them up for success, without pathologizing their behavior * Self-regulatory behaviors – comparing them to coffee drinking * The need to move toward societal change
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and then OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Joel’s LinkedIn Profile
Nick Walker’s notes Neurocosmopolitanism.com
Facebook Page
The Neurodiversity Affirming Therapists Facebook Group
Relevant Episodes:
Let’s Talk About Race
Let’s Talk About Race Again
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie reflect on 100 podcast episodes, what the experience has been like, and where we want to take the podcast next.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How much we appreciate listener connection and feedback * Self-reflection on the previous 99 episodes * A new hashtag: #teamcurtie * Our switch from 2 episodes per week to 1 episode per week * How podcasting has improved our speaking and thought processes * The impact of hearing from listeners of the podcast at the conference * How we recorded and put out the Therapist Safety episodes * Our goal to catalyze the diverse voices in our community to stand up * How we have made mistakes publicly in order to have healing conversations publicly * The level of disclosure we have on the podcast * The surprise that our moms aren’t the only people listening every week * The way we talk about our profession in order to improve it * How we are going to grow and change the podcast * What are #moderntherapist conversations (and what are not) * Guiding principles of what we’re talking about * How we are different from other groups, other podcasts * The origin of the podcast as a marketing plan for a conference, and then it evolved into its own thing
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and they OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Melvin Varghese’s Healthcasters Course
Relevant Episodes:
So You Want to Plan a Conference
Therapist Safety
Attracted Clients
Let’s Talk About Race Again
Vulnerability, the News, and You
Toxic Work Environments
Take Action Like a BOSS
Social Media and Video Marketing with Ernesto Segismundo, Jr M.S. LMFT
Becoming a Group Practice Owner with Maureen Werrbach
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview Yin Li, LMFT about Asian American and Pacific Islanders in therapy and as therapists. Curt and Katie talk with Yin about how often AAPI individuals are not included in the conversation about racism, culture, and mental health.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Yin Li, MA LMFT Yin Li a marriage and family therapist licensed in California and Oregon and founder of Theralane. She works primarily with Asian Americans on a range of concerns ranging from challenging family dynamics, chronic relationship difficulties (romantic, love, family, work), life transitions, career challenges, identify questions, high functioning depression, and anxiety. Yin is very passionate about normalizing mental health, wellness, and therapy services in Asian communities. She has spoken and provided workshops on Asian American Mental Health and Wellness. For white identified clinicians working with Asian Americans, Yin is available for consultation.
Website www.theralane.com
Email: yin@theralane.com
Instagram: @theralane.counseling
In this episode we talk about: * Being called out by listener, Yin Li about not talking about Asian American and Pacific Islanders in our conversations about Race to date. * Thoughts on why AAPI individuals are often left out of the conversation or ignored * The “Model Minority” myth * The problem of using aggregate data * Language barriers and self-segregation * The problem of not knowing what we don’t know * Deep-rooted racism in the United States * How do we identify and address our blind spots * The factors that might enter into the perspective of AAPI individuals on getting therapy or entering the therapy profession * What to do when you identify this blind spot * Looking at what can be missed when working with AAPI clients * How race might come into the room, even if it is not the primary reason for treatment * Family immigration stories, language differences * Hoping space for cultural stories and the context in which your client lives * The problem of not talking about race with Asian American clients * How to get over the nervousness of talking about race with AAPI clients * How do the conversations relate to the needs of the client, with intention * The problem of addressing race and culture to check a box – which comes from a place of privilege * The complexity of mixed race – looking at unique factors * How integration as an individual is impacted by where one lives, with whom they live (e.g., AAPI child adopted into a white family, living in 2 cultures) * The importance of exploring the individual experience due to the complexity of the conversation * Developmental stages of cultural and racial identity * The impact of where you live on your sense of self * Marriage and Family Therapists: only 0.4% are AAPI * The assumption in all of therapeutic education that clients are white * The common requirement for AAPI therapists to learn on their own how to effectively treat AAPI clients * The value of consultation * What educators and professional associations can do to improve the situation * Calling out when the education is not enough * Messages Yin Li has for Asian American therapists
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and then OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Asian American Psychological Association
AAPA Response to APA Racism Video
Matthew Mock, PHD
Counseling the Culturally Diverse: Theory and Practice 6th Edition by Derald Wing Sue and David Sue
Yin Li’s Website: www.theralane.com
Email: yin@theralane.com
Instagram: @theralane.counseling
Relevant Podcast Episodes:
Let’s Talk About Race
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Katie Read, LMFT about what it means to be a Therapreneur and the frequent mistakes that therapists make when writing their websites. Curt and Katie interviewed Katie about the unique challenges for therapist marketing and how to use Motivational Interviewing to improve your website.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Katie Read, LMFT Katie Read, LMFT, helps therapists grow...then OUTgrow...their practices! Katie helps clinicians overcome scarcity-mindset, get clear on their most meaningful work, create highly-converting websites, and create additional income streams in coaching, consulting, course creation, and more!
Connect with Katie here:
www.katieread.com
www.facebook.com/groups/therapreneurs
www.facebook.com/therapreneurcoach
In this episode we talk about: * How crappy therapist websites are * The desire to move beyond the therapist office * What a “Therapreneur” is * How to outgrow the old ideas of what therapists can be * When therapists are pushed down for being “too big” * Debunking the idea that therapists are shy and mousy * What happens when you look beyond the office * The problems most therapists make when writing the copy for your website * The importance of using the clients’ language when describing clinical concerns * The scourge of psychobabble, academic, or jargon language used in websites * How to include your achievements and CV information on your website, if it is relevant for ideal client * What therapists bring to the marketing game * Why videos are important for your marketing * How to use Motivational Interviewing to write your website * The awful truth that we all respond to scarcity marketing * The unique challenge for marketing therapy (without scarcity as a possibility) * Where the marketing questions can go wrong * The tendency of therapists to copy other therapists in their marketing and water down their voice * Why so many people use Brene Brown quotes * Designing your profile to speak to your ideal clients * How to find your voice and the language you can use to speak to the clients you serve * The importance of Niche for marketing, specialization, training, and efficacy * The fear of turning away clients – and why that is short-sighted * How to grow by niching down sufficiently for your area
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and then OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Client Machine Course (free course)
www.katieread.com
www.facebook.com/groups/therapreneurs
www.facebook.com/therapreneurcoach
Relevant Podcast Episodes:
Bad Marketing Decisions
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about what to do when your clients report sexual or romantic transference. We look at how to explore these feelings, how to set boundaries, and what you need to be cautious about.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How normal it is that clients become attracted to their therapists. * The level of safety and intimacy in therapy can be so attractive to clients that they become romantically attracted to their therapist. * Examples of how this type of attraction can show up in the room * The caution to wait to jump to “Are you hitting on me?” * Looking at what is appropriate and inappropriate, especially given cultural differences * How supervisors can advise their supervisees in these situations * The difference between a misunderstood connection and physical attraction – and thoughts on how to handle each one * How physical appearance can impact the pre-treatment expectations * A study on Attractive Business Women – the idea of the Femme Fatale * Looking at how being gorgeous might impact your clinical work * Be authentically yourself, with the understanding of what societal bias could come up * When the clients start responding to the therapist as an individual, rather than the therapist or the therapy relationship – looking at transference/counter-transference * How hard it can be to talk about the client’s sexual attraction in the therapy room * Holding space – acceptance with clear boundaries * Making sure to address safety * Exploring the interplay between emotional intimacy and the expectation for sexual intimacy * How to set the boundaries in the psychotherapy relationship when attraction has been disclosed by the therapist * The caution to avoid shaming the client and how to do so * The importance of consultation during these types of situations * Factors that can impact these types of interactions in the treatment room * The safety factors and risks to be aware of, when facing sexual or romantic transference
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and they OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Article: Attractive businesswomen viewed as less trustworthy 'femmes fatales'
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about what to do when your clients report sexual or romantic transference. We look at how to explore these feelings, how to set boundaries, and what you need to be cautious about.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How normal it is that clients become attracted to their therapists. * The level of safety and intimacy in therapy can be so attractive to clients that they become romantically attracted to their therapist. * Examples of how this type of attraction can show up in the room * The caution to wait to jump to “Are you hitting on me?” * Looking at what is appropriate and inappropriate, especially given cultural differences * How supervisors can advise their supervisees in these situations * The difference between a misunderstood connection and physical attraction – and thoughts on how to handle each one * How physical appearance can impact the pre-treatment expectations * A study on Attractive Business Women – the idea of the Femme Fatale * Looking at how being gorgeous might impact your clinical work * Be authentically yourself, with the understanding of what societal bias could come up * When the clients start responding to the therapist as an individual, rather than the therapist or the therapy relationship – looking at transference/counter-transference * How hard it can be to talk about the client’s sexual attraction in the therapy room * Holding space – acceptance with clear boundaries * Making sure to address safety * Exploring the interplay between emotional intimacy and the expectation for sexual intimacy * How to set the boundaries in the psychotherapy relationship when attraction has been disclosed by the therapist * The caution to avoid shaming the client and how to do so * The importance of consultation during these types of situations * Factors that can impact these types of interactions in the treatment room * The safety factors and risks to be aware of, when facing sexual or romantic transference
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor Katie Read! Katie helps therapists grow and they OUTgrow their practices. If you're in GROW mode, she can help you grow faster by knowing exactly how to create your therapist website to get the most possible calls with her two courses, Client Machine and Website Whisperer! If you're ready to OUTgrow your office, Katie helps clinicians know the exact right steps to add big extra income streams in coaching, consulting, or courses! Check out www.katieread.com for more information.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Article: Attractive businesswomen viewed as less trustworthy 'femmes fatales'
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Shira Myrow, LMFT about how therapists carry a mental load for their clients, in addition to the load they carry as entrepreneurs and people. Curt and Katie talk with Shira about how to identify (and intervene) when therapists uncover this dangerous burden.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Shira Myrow, LMFT Shira Myrow is a licensed marriage and family therapist, mindfulness educator and founder of the mindfulness based Yale St. Therapy Group based in Santa Monica where she works in private practice. Shira specializes in relationship intelligence—treating couples and marriages with a focus on rebuilding attunement, improving attachment, and creating emotional literacy. Shira also works with individuals in transition looking for love, in break up recovery or going through divorce. Shira has a special focus on treating adult children of severely mentally ill parents with attachment injuries, including parents with borderline personality disorder, bi-polar and schizophrenia. Shira is also a writer and a regular contributor for Goop online magazine.
You can learn more about Shira and contact her here:
Website www.shiramyrowtherapy.com/
Email: therapy.smyrow@gmail.com
Instagram: @shiramyrowlmft, @yalesstreettherapy
In this episode we talk about: * The definition of Mental Load, with some of the history of the concept * Curt’s admission that Katie is carrying the mental load of this business relationship * Invisible emotional labor of managing daily lives and relationships * The invisible emotional load that therapists carry for clients and how that might be leading to less respect from other medical professionals * How the mental load from work can negatively impact personal life * The importance of intentional disconnection from the work when going home. * How the mental load can stay in your body, even when you mentally or emotionally disconnect from the work * How mindfulness can help address this challenge * The danger of privileging productivity above all else * The idea of how to incorporate this knowledge into therapist training * The complexity of business ownership, modern life, the connectedness afforded by technology * The onslaught of information that we get as individuals in the world AND as therapists * Attunement and presence in session, with self-regulation, so you can do the work without feeling cold and disconnected * Allowing versus suppressing emotions – so you can observe and have emotions pass * Tips for identifying when the mental load is having an impact, how to prevent or respond * The negative impact of stress on our bodies * How society has acclimated to unhealthy levels of stress and technology * The unreasonable expectations that come from being plugged in * Losing empathy and connection * The human struggle to incorporate mindfulness * Economy of effort * “Life shouldn’t be reduced to a to do list” - Shira Myrow
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs!
The Basics of California Law for LMFTs, LPCCs, and LCSWs is written in plain language that clinicians will understand. It's easy to find what you need, and it won't bill you by the hour. Rules on supervision, privilege, abuse reporting, marketing, technology, and much more... it's all in there. It's the book we wish had been available back when we were in grad school. The sixth edition is fully updated to 2019 law. You can get 25% off The Basics of California Law when you order at BenCaldwellLabs.com by March 31, 2019 and use coupon code ESSENTIAL at checkout.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
The Mental Load: A Feminist Comic by Emma
Gottman Training
Pema Chodron
Thich Nhat Hanh
ShiraMyrowTherapy.com
YaleStreetTherapy.com
Relevant Podcast Episodes
MTSG Podcast episodes on Self-Care (All Episodes in this category)
The Neuroscience of Stress
Being Truly Mindful
The Call for Speakers for Therapy Reimagined 2019
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how therapists’ outside passions and pursuits can come into the therapy room. We talk about the thought, consideration, and intention that can help these elevate your practice, rather than hurt your clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Curt’s obsession with running marathons and talking about running in his therapy sessions * How your outside identity, hobbies, obsessions, etc. can impact your therapy sessions, your branding * How to identify if you can bring your outside stuff into the room * Acknowledging things that are obvious to clients, but with sensitivity and conscientiousness * When you need to align your niche with your outside passions * The possibility of triggering your clients and how to handle that * When your outside activities positively impact your work * The need to avoid over-identification when sharing hobbies or obsessions with your client * Self-disclosure is for the benefit of the client * Identifying what is yours and what is your client’s * How deliberate practice informs this decision * Grounding yourself before session, refocusing and making sure you stay present during session * How these activities can make ideas and interventions more tangible * The danger of advice giving when you are truly passionate about your activities * Making sure to be intentional about your relationship and your treatment by reviewing treatment goals prior to each session * Deliberate practice as a mechanism to make sure these obsessions don’t come into session in a negative way * Shared interests leading to connection and then short-hand that helps to move the relationship forward * Honesty and authenticity in the therapeutic relationship
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs!
Ben Caldwell Labs offers MFTs a fully-online prep program for the California MFT Law and Ethics Exam that can have you ready for your test in as little as seven days. His program is clear, useful, and best of all, less than half the cost of competing programs. And if you purchase by March 31st, 2019 and use code MODERN at checkout, you'll get it at an even better price.
Visit BenCaldwellLabs.com/California for complete details.
Relevant Episodes: What Clients Want
Being Truly Mindful
The Neuroscience of Stress
The Danger of Poor Self-Care for Therapists
Self-Care, Self-Compassion, and Self-Awareness for Therapists
A Bit of Advice
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Scott Miller’s Feedback Informed Treatment
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Lana Benedek, MD, integrative psychiatrist, on how psychiatry can be practiced differently (not just prescribing medication). Curt and Katie talk with Lana about the importance of focusing on the whole person and incorporating lifestyle changes and commonsense health practices like diet, exercise, sleep and mindfulness in the quest for sustained wellness.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Lana Benedek, MD Lana Benedek, MD, is an integrative psychiatrist, consultant and teacher who has worked for more than 15 years with adolescents and adults, helping them to resolve issues of anxiety, depression and addiction. Throughout her career, Lana has been keenly interested in empowering individuals to create long-term healing beyond prescription medication and give them the tools to create lasting well-being. To that end, she has practiced mindfulness meditation and yoga for more than a decade, using it as a foundation for her own life and her approach to treatment. She currently facilitates mindfulness-based therapy groups for individuals with anxiety, depression and addiction throughout Los Angeles, including at the Mind Body Tree House and Resolutions Treatment Center. Additionally, she is on the clinical faculty of the University of Southern California (USC) where she teaches psychiatry trainees about mindfulness and self-care to reduce burnout and stress. Early in her medical career, Lana became interested in the marriage of medicine and other modalities of healing. During medical school while working on the pediatric ward of Howard Hospital in remote Zimbabwe, Lana became attuned to our society’s dependence on external medical treatments, which led her to begin practicing yoga and meditation. Later working with clients in the faculty practice, at USC and within the student health center at University of California at Los Angeles, she saw the benefits of incorporating mindfulness-based practices within her therapy.
You can learn more about Lana Benedek, MD at https://drbenedek.com.
In this episode we talk about: * What Integrative Psychiatry is and what it is not * The importance of mind, body, and community * Why to focus on root causes and not symptoms * How psychiatry can actually focus on least invasive methods, rather than going straight to medication * Strengths, individuals’ ability to heal themselves * Integrating traditional and alternative methods for healing * Walking your talk as a practitioner * The goal of sustained wellness, rather than symptom remission * Mindfulness and mindfulness-based therapies * How the system has evolved to having psychiatrists being the prescribers * Risks and benefits of medication * How medicine cannot address the underlying causes of symptoms * The risk of dependence and withdrawal * The importance of the scientific rigor in choosing interventions * When clinical experience and values-based medicine are needed * The importance of an anti-inflammatory diet: vegetables, good fats, legumes, lean proteins, nuts and seeds, whole grains * How your diet can make you depressed * Exercise is just as good as an antidepressant for your mood * The importance of sleep * The commonsense ways to help yourself feel better * How to collaborate with an integrative psychiatrist * Promoting Mental Wellness * Looking at strengths and the whole person, rather than symptoms within a rigid treatment framework * Psychoeducation on the causes of your mental health concerns
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs!
The Basics of California Law for LMFTs, LPCCs, and LCSWs is written in plain language that clinicians will understand. It's easy to find what you need, and it won't bill you by the hour. Rules on supervision, privilege, abuse reporting, marketing, technology, and much more... it's all in there. It's the book we wish had been available back when we were in grad school. The sixth edition is fully updated to 2019 law. You can get 25% off The Basics of California Law when you order at BenCaldwellLabs.com by March 31, 2019 and use coupon code ESSENTIAL at checkout.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Dr. Lana Benedek’s Website
Her articles on the Building Blocks of Good Mental Health
How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease by Michael Greger MD (Author), Gene Stone (Author)
Lana Benedek’s contact information: lana@drbenedek.com; 310-853-0735
The Call for Speakers for Therapy Reimagined 2019
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about antitrust laws – how they impact therapists, how to avoid concerns, and what to pay attention to when you’re a therapist.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Sherman Antitrust Law * Why antitrust laws are important * Looking at insurance companies and the discrepancy that therapists are more held to antitrust than insurance companies for complicated reasons * Therapy practices are businesses and in competition with each other * Price Fixing and Market Share agreements * The problem and risk with group boycotts * The difference between colluding and discussing publicly available information * How competition discussing fees in small Facebook groups can lead to price fixing * The Cardigan Cartel * How to communicate fees and discuss insurance issues without getting into antitrust issues * Individuals on insurance panels are still competitors * How Antitrust can be anti-consumer * What the risks are for discussing pros and cons of different insurance panels * How to avoid anti-trust problems * Why you should talk to an attorney if you’re concerned * How interstate commerce relates to antitrust and how Insurance Plans can play a game to get out of all of this * The differences between employees who can strike and separate businesses banding together * How Single-Payer relates to this topic * How associations play into this and why they can survey their members on fees and other aspects of their businesses * The difference between being responsible as a business owner and following the trends * Sharing information, without making decisions and planning together * How often therapists or other healthcare providers get in trouble for antitrust concerns, as well as related licenses * Publicly available information is safe to discuss * Share information, but don’t put a call to action to do something with your colleagues
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs!
Ben Caldwell Labs offers MFTs a fully-online prep program for the California MFT Law and Ethics Exam that can have you ready for your test in as little as seven days. His program is clear, useful, and best of all, less than half the cost of competing programs. And if you purchase by March 31st, 2019 and use code MODERN at checkout, you'll get it at an even better price.
Visit BenCaldwellLabs.com/California for complete details.
Relevant Episodes: In-Person Networking
Modern Therapists Strike Back
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890
CAMFT Article: Avoiding Antitrust Problems
McCarren Ferguson Act
Therapist Staffing Company and Two Owners Settle Charges that They Colluded on Rates Paid to Physical Therapists in Dallas/Fort Worth Area
How Does Antitrust Apply to Psychologists? From APA
CPH Insurance Antitrust Information
Spotlight on Trade Organizations
Association-Sponsored Market Research Program: Common pitfalls, antitrust risks, and opportunities
What the Antitrust Exemption for Health Insurers Means
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists
Therapists in Private Practice
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our CALL FOR SPEAKERS!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Melvin Varghese, Ph.D., on how he has created and nurtured three therapist-related businesses. Curt and Katie talk with him about how he decided what to create and how he manages these endeavors.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Melvin Varghese, Ph.D. Melvin Varghese, PhD is a psychologist in private practice (melvinvarghese.com) in Philadelphia where he works primarily with entrepreneurs and leaders. He's also the founder of Selling The Couch (sellingthecouch.com), a podcast and blog that helps mental health practitioners build careers in and out of the therapy room. He has also started a podcasting course and a community for helpers and healers who podcast, called the Healthcasters (sellingthecouch.com/the-healthcasters). He has also created the STC Directory (sellingthecouch.com/directory), a resource to help private practitioners better connect with one another.
In this episode we talk about: * How the podcast Selling the Couch got started * Additional options for therapists * The multiple income stream mindset for therapists * Melvin’s transition into being a father and how it impacted his businesses * Creating alternative revenue streams when life happens * Moving away from only being paid for “butt in seat time.” * The guilt when generating income without being present * Melvin’s immigration story and how it has impacted his business mindset * Deciding on income streams (it is profitable, is it scalable) * There is no such thing as “passive” income * How to sustain creative energy on new products or services * Thinking through the energy and time needed for the sustainability of the alternative income stream * Just because you have an idea, doesn’t mean it is a good idea (long-term and sustainable) * Building business around family (rather than fitting family in around business) * Thinking through how to start and then scale products * The upfront mental, emotional, and creative energy for launching alternative income streams * Setting an end goal * Focusing on one project at a time * Solidifying, streamlining, and delegating before moving to the next project * Time management, time blocking * How Melvin does market research * Testing products with Beta Testers * Where Melvin gets data, i.e., how do therapists get clients * Using and breaking down technology * Learning from mistakes * The difficulty in sustaining a lot of projects * Looking to make an impact and leave a legacy, rather than making money
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Selling the Couch Podcast
Katie’s appearance on Melvin’s podcast
The Healthcasters Course
The STC Directory
Apple Insider (books on Steve Jobs)
Book: The One Thing
Book: 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership
The Call for Speakers for Therapy Reimagined 2019
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Relevant Podcast Episodes Open to Opportunities
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about why to join your professional organization, how to best take advantage of the benefits of your membership, and what associations actually do.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Why to join your professional organization * What your membership fees go to * Advocacy efforts, legislation * Finding the cultural fit for your professional organization * Joining based on your license, the focus of the org, education * The tools that professional organizations provide to their members * The power of numbers in advocacy * Networking and getting referrals within your local chapter * Community building * Learning and growing * Relationship building * How to assess return on investment on joining * Opportunities for leadership, education, networking * Creating friendships * Differentiating yourself within your local community * Decreasing isolation * Gaining perspective on your work/business situation * Continuing Education * Making an impact on how your professional organization operates * Communication about the current state of affairs * Needed information for both pre-licensed and licensed individuals * Magazines, Scholarly Journals * How to get involved, show up consistently * Committees, projects, volunteering * How to approach the situation whether you’re an introvert, ambivert, or extrovert * Benefits to your business, network and community, education, advocacy, and fun * Vote for Curt Widhalm, LMFT for President-Elect of CAMFT
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Track Your Hours, LLC!
They now bring you Prelicensed.com, where prelicensed individuals can find PAID positions. They also bring your Track Your CEUs, where licensed therapists in California can remain compliant with the BBS's continuing education requirements with reminders, keeping track of progress in various categories (like Law and Ethics), and uploading paper CEU certificates where you can easily retrieve them if you're ever audited by the BBS.
Learn more at www.TrackYourHoursLLC.com.
Relevant Episodes: Open to Opportunity
In-Person Networking
So You Want to Plan a Conference
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
American Psychological Association (APA)
American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT)
American Counseling Association (ACA)
National Association of Social Workers (NASW)
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT)
CAMFT’s Legislative Action Alert on Medicare
Curt’s Candidate Statement
Curt’s Campaign FB Page
Curt’s Campaign Website
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Daniela Paolone, LMFT about how she treats clients with chronic pain and illnesses while navigating her own diagnosis. Curt and Katie talked with Daniela about how typical therapy doesn’t work for these clients, providing practical strategies for treatment and therapist self-care.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Daniela Paolone, LMFT Daniela Paolone is a Marriage and Family Therapist who is licensed in California and Wyoming and offers support to those impacted by anxiety, depression, life transitions, chronic pain, chronic illness, and medical trauma. She provides online and in-person counseling to California residents and offers online counseling to Wyoming residents.
As a therapist with chronic health conditions, she utilizes her personal experiences and professional training in her counseling work. Daniela’s integrative approach helps her clients learn new ways of coping so that they can live more fulfilling lives and feel empowered as they move through life challenges, such as medical illness and chronic pain.
Daniela also offers workshops and consultation support for mental health professionals. She also provides community presentations focused on pain management, stress management, sleep solutions and more. If you want to learn about where she is presenting next, you can sign up for her newsletter here. When you sign up, you will also receive a free guided meditation as thank you gift.
In this episode we talk about: * Why Daniela decided that she wanted to go into working with chronic pain and illness as her area of specialty * What was missing in the treatment she had seen for chronic pain and illness sufferers * The need for structure and for understanding * How she has decided how to disclose about her own diagnosis, medical procedures, etc. based on relevance and relatability * The specific challenges of being a younger person who has chronic illness * Modeling needs and self-care to clients * Themes of isolation and not being understood * Being a Spoon-y * What therapists often get wrong when working with chronic pain sufferers * The need to do a good job of assessing functioning, what they can do in a typical day * Understanding the neuroscience of pain and how it impacts their ability to do deeper, insight-oriented work * The conversation about attendance, options when someone (client or therapist) are having a flare-up (like online services) * The need for a more flexible cancellation policy * Understanding their schedule of doctor’s appointments * The idea of consulting with the other medical professionals on their team * The work in session around navigating doctors, their illness * The need for a case management hat at times * Putting a focus on building skills and support * Looking at scope of practice when you have had your own medical journey and have knowledge. * How to share information through a psychoeducational lens * Sharing the types of questions or concerns to take to doctors, without crossing the line * Looking at rule outs that could be presented to clients to take back to their doctor * Letting go of the guilt and resting when needed as a therapist with chronic illness * Trusting intuition for when to slow down and increase self-care * The impacts of poor self-care on the people around you * How hope can be a scary concept when facing a chronic pain and illness * The importance of managing expectation and being realistic * Developing better quality of life through incremental goals * Resilience, resourcefulness, and self-advocacy * Grounding in purpose, finding motivation to keep going * The connection of grief to chronic pain and illness
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Daniela’s website: www.westlakevillage-counseling.com
Spoon Theory: https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
7 Psychological Stages of Chronic Pain (and it also applies to chronic illness)
Functional Medicine defined: https://drhyman.com/about-2/about-functional-medicine/
Dr. Datis Kharrazian: https://drknews.com/about-dr-datis-kharrazian/
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Daniela Paolone, LMFT about how she treats clients with chronic pain and illnesses while navigating her own diagnosis. Curt and Katie talked with Daniela about how typical therapy doesn’t work for these clients, providing practical strategies for treatment and therapist self-care.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Daniela Paolone, LMFT Daniela Paolone is a Marriage and Family Therapist who is licensed in California and Wyoming and offers support to those impacted by anxiety, depression, life transitions, chronic pain, chronic illness, and medical trauma. She provides online and in-person counseling to California residents and offers online counseling to Wyoming residents.
As a therapist with chronic health conditions, she utilizes her personal experiences and professional training in her counseling work. Daniela’s integrative approach helps her clients learn new ways of coping so that they can live more fulfilling lives and feel empowered as they move through life challenges, such as medical illness and chronic pain.
Daniela also offers workshops and consultation support for mental health professionals. She also provides community presentations focused on pain management, stress management, sleep solutions and more. If you want to learn about where she is presenting next, you can sign up for her newsletter here. When you sign up, you will also receive a free guided meditation as thank you gift.
In this episode we talk about: * Why Daniela decided that she wanted to go into working with chronic pain and illness as her area of specialty * What was missing in the treatment she had seen for chronic pain and illness sufferers * The need for structure and for understanding * How she has decided how to disclose about her own diagnosis, medical procedures, etc. based on relevance and relatability * The specific challenges of being a younger person who has chronic illness * Modeling needs and self-care to clients * Themes of isolation and not being understood * Being a Spoon-y * What therapists often get wrong when working with chronic pain sufferers * The need to do a good job of assessing functioning, what they can do in a typical day * Understanding the neuroscience of pain and how it impacts their ability to do deeper, insight-oriented work * The conversation about attendance, options when someone (client or therapist) are having a flare-up (like online services) * The need for a more flexible cancellation policy * Understanding their schedule of doctor’s appointments * The idea of consulting with the other medical professionals on their team * The work in session around navigating doctors, their illness * The need for a case management hat at times * Putting a focus on building skills and support * Looking at scope of practice when you have had your own medical journey and have knowledge. * How to share information through a psychoeducational lens * Sharing the types of questions or concerns to take to doctors, without crossing the line * Looking at rule outs that could be presented to clients to take back to their doctor * Letting go of the guilt and resting when needed as a therapist with chronic illness * Trusting intuition for when to slow down and increase self-care * The impacts of poor self-care on the people around you * How hope can be a scary concept when facing a chronic pain and illness * The importance of managing expectation and being realistic * Developing better quality of life through incremental goals * Resilience, resourcefulness, and self-advocacy * Grounding in purpose, finding motivation to keep going * The connection of grief to chronic pain and illness
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Daniela’s website: www.westlakevillage-counseling.com
Spoon Theory: https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
7 Psychological Stages of Chronic Pain (and it also applies to chronic illness)
Functional Medicine defined: https://drhyman.com/about-2/about-functional-medicine/
Dr. Datis Kharrazian: https://drknews.com/about-dr-datis-kharrazian/
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the 2018 APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men. We talk about the definition of masculinity and each of the guidelines, looking at what they explain well and where they miss the mark.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Discussing whether these guidelines would be created * The importance of teasing out the differences across demographics, genders, etc. * The complexity of men and what the guidelines address * The definition of masculinity and Curt’s problem with it * The concept of many masculinities * The shifting perception of masculinity and femininity * Toxic masculinity as the extreme * The places where the guidelines miss the mark * Comparing Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson and Michael Cerra * The stuff that is “no duh.” * Discussing intersectionality, the impact of culture, sexism, power, privilege on how men develop * Biological, evolutionary, and societal impacts on sexism for men * Challenging the idea that we actually value all the different types of masculinity * How the educational guidelines miss the need to adjust how schools operate * What is missed or misrepresented about bullying * How the guidelines address violence * The problem with the data on violence – looking at convictions versus how many are committed * The concept of “boys will be boys” * Physical differences that lead to stand up and be protective * The thought that the Guidelines are not acknowledging the biological or physical differences between men and other genders * The types of responses men have toward taking care of their health * How to embrace masculinity as an element of diversity and not thinking that masculinity is bad * Differentiating toxic masculinity from masculinity (i.e., pathologizing masculinity) * How this can be perceived in the #metoo era * The shifting of what is acceptable for men and potential impacts of these shifts on boys and men * How advocacy is addressed in the guidelines, especially looking at intersectionality
Relevant Episodes: When is it Discrimination?
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men
Podcast: Hardcore History
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the 2018 APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men. We talk about the definition of masculinity and each of the guidelines, looking at what they explain well and where they miss the mark.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Discussing whether these guidelines would be created * The importance of teasing out the differences across demographics, genders, etc. * The complexity of men and what the guidelines address * The definition of masculinity and Curt’s problem with it * The concept of many masculinities * The shifting perception of masculinity and femininity * Toxic masculinity as the extreme * The places where the guidelines miss the mark * Comparing Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson and Michael Cerra * The stuff that is “no duh.” * Discussing intersectionality, the impact of culture, sexism, power, privilege on how men develop * Biological, evolutionary, and societal impacts on sexism for men * Challenging the idea that we actually value all the different types of masculinity * How the educational guidelines miss the need to adjust how schools operate * What is missed or misrepresented about bullying * How the guidelines address violence * The problem with the data on violence – looking at convictions versus how many are committed * The concept of “boys will be boys” * Physical differences that lead to stand up and be protective * The thought that the Guidelines are not acknowledging the biological or physical differences between men and other genders * The types of responses men have toward taking care of their health * How to embrace masculinity as an element of diversity and not thinking that masculinity is bad * Differentiating toxic masculinity from masculinity (i.e., pathologizing masculinity) * How this can be perceived in the #metoo era * The shifting of what is acceptable for men and potential impacts of these shifts on boys and men * How advocacy is addressed in the guidelines, especially looking at intersectionality
Relevant Episodes: When is it Discrimination?
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
APA Guidelines for Psychological Practice with Boys and Men
Podcast: Hardcore History
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Anita Avedian, LMFT, CAMS-IV, about her ability to identify opportunities for entrepreneurship. Curt and Katie talk with her about how she has thrived as a therapist and a business owner, even though she doesn’t see herself as a “visionary” or “strategist.”
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Anita Avedian, LMFT, CAMS-IV, Executive Director of Avedian Counseling Center, Executive Director of Anger Management Essentials Anita Avedian is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and has been practicing psychotherapy since 1996. She opened her practice in 2001 and continues to see clients in Sherman Oaks, Hollywood, Glendale, and Woodland Hills. Avedian Marriage and Family Therapy Corporation was formed in 2018, where Anita merged Anger Management 818 and her private practice into a group practice. Her specialties include working with relationships, anger, social anxiety, general anxiety, and addictions. Anita is the Executive Director of Avedian Counseling Center, with 8 locations, helping people work towards improving their daily lives and relationships.
Anger Management Essentials is an approved National Anger Management Association (NAMA) model which is used for anger management certification. Moreover, Anita is an Authorized NAMA Trainer and Anger Management Supervisor for certifying anger management specialists. She is a Certified Anger Management Specialist IV and a Diplomat Member of NAMA. Anita offers a monthly training throughout the West Coast to certify counselors in anger management. She authored Anger Management Essentials, a workbook for aggression, which has been translated into Spanish, Armenian, and Hebrew. The Teen Version was published in 2017.
Anita is very involved with the professional community. Anita is the co-Founder and President of the California Chapter of NAMA, and the Founder of Toastmasters for Mental Health Professionals. Anita is an active member of the Armenian American Medical Society (AAMS) and the Armenian American Mental Health Association (AAMHA). She also volunteers to help organize the mental health segment of the annual Glendale Health Festival.
In this episode we talk about: * How Anita started and succeeded at a number of different businesses * Learning about business and entrepreneurship * The importance of networking and building relationships * Following the path in front of her, toward leadership, business, entrepreneurship * The additional education she engaged in, so that she was able to learn what she needed to do * The path toward all the offerings she has created: a book, creating a curriculum and certificate program, multi-location group practice, managing office space, speaking and presenting, new endeavors * How collaboration and fun has led her into opportunities that she didn’t expect * Anita claiming that she doesn’t have vision, but has made herself available to the possibilities * How she now assesses opportunities for time, feasibility, etc. * How she is able to let go of ideas or projects that are not working * How she makes decisions and identifies needs in her communities * The strategy she takes to expand offerings * How and why she says no * How her work naturally progresses * Why some people miss out on opportunities * The ability to trust opportunities to be there when they are needed * Doing what she enjoys, building the relationships she wants, in order to live a good life (rather than just to get referrals) * Why she only does stuff that she enjoys doing * Trusting that if we do what we love, from that grows these wonderful connections and opportunities * How networking took over her week – and how she cut down * How helping others for free was taking away from her ability to do her own work and led to a lucrative little side business * How when we don’t invest in our businesses that we don’t do what we need to do to grow and thrive in business * The problem with operating your business out of fear * How to step into what you’re becoming * Looking at the concept of finding your own special sauce * How to identify what is in front of you, seeing the opportunities for what they are * See what you have happening in front of you, even if it isn’t therapy * Don’t let your vision get in the way of what is in front of you * Recognizing that these are experiments and you can let go of them
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Brighter Vision!
Trusted by thousands of therapists around the world, Brighter Vision has proven time and time again that they are the world’s most trusted website solution for therapists. With a Brighter Vision website, you get paired with a professional web developer that understands you and your practice and will bring to life a beautiful, unique website paired with unbeatable SEO. They won’t leave you in the dust once your site is built, rather, you’ll have the option to change anything on your site with their unlimited customer support policy.
Brighter Vision is having their biggest sale of the year right now! (January 2019)
Save $120 on your first year by locking in your entire first year for just $49/month!
Check them out here: https://www.brightervision.com/guide/
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Anita Avedian’s website
Anger Management 818
Anger Management Essentials
Shrink Sync
Avedian Counseling Center
Phone number: 818-426-2495
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how niche, safety considerations, or competence can be used by therapists to discriminate against specific classes of people. Specifically looking at therapists who decide to no longer work with men.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists might be discriminating when they refuse to work with a specific gender * Niche, specialization, scope of competence (or scope of excellence) * How to assess whether you are discriminating or providing the highest level of care (i.e., referral) * Having a thoughtful process and clear conversation to help clients find the best match * Assessing safety in deciding who to take into your practice * The importance of good screening tools * The problem of refusing to see clients when you are fearful of a whole protected class of individuals * Marketing to your ideal client to help the clients you’re best suited to help call you * When there is a competence issue to be a therapist when you are not able to work professionally with specific protected classes * The role that past traumas and wounding experiences have on our ability to be effective therapists * Self-awareness versus discrimination * The argument about whether we “have to” serve everyone who reaches out to us for help * Options when you don’t feel capable of serving specific issues or specific classes of people * Referring out, learning more, working on your own triggers * The standard that therapists are held to * How not to discriminate – helping clients to make an informed choice, providing professional assistance (referring out) * When you must see clients according to the ethics codes * How to take care of yourself as a therapist * Respecting that we are human beings with limits, while still understanding the higher standard that we are held to
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Brighter Vision!
Trusted by thousands of therapists around the world, Brighter Vision has proven time and time again that they are the world’s most trusted website solution for therapists. With a Brighter Vision website, you get paired with a professional web developer that understands you and your practice and will bring to life a beautiful, unique website paired with unbeatable SEO. They won’t leave you in the dust once your site is built, rather, you’ll have the option to change anything on your site with their unlimited customer support policy.
Brighter Vision is having their biggest sale of the year right now! (January 2019)
Save $120 on your first year by locking in your entire first year for just $49/month!
Check them out here: https://www.brightervision.com/guide/
Relevant Episodes: Therapist Safety
The Brand Called You
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how niche, safety considerations, or competence can be used by therapists to discriminate against specific classes of people. Specifically looking at therapists who decide to no longer work with men.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists might be discriminating when they refuse to work with a specific gender * Niche, specialization, scope of competence (or scope of excellence) * How to assess whether you are discriminating or providing the highest level of care (i.e., referral) * Having a thoughtful process and clear conversation to help clients find the best match * Assessing safety in deciding who to take into your practice * The importance of good screening tools * The problem of refusing to see clients when you are fearful of a whole protected class of individuals * Marketing to your ideal client to help the clients you’re best suited to help call you * When there is a competence issue to be a therapist when you are not able to work professionally with specific protected classes * The role that past traumas and wounding experiences have on our ability to be effective therapists * Self-awareness versus discrimination * The argument about whether we “have to” serve everyone who reaches out to us for help * Options when you don’t feel capable of serving specific issues or specific classes of people * Referring out, learning more, working on your own triggers * The standard that therapists are held to * How not to discriminate – helping clients to make an informed choice, providing professional assistance (referring out) * When you must see clients according to the ethics codes * How to take care of yourself as a therapist * Respecting that we are human beings with limits, while still understanding the higher standard that we are held to
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Brighter Vision!
Trusted by thousands of therapists around the world, Brighter Vision has proven time and time again that they are the world’s most trusted website solution for therapists. With a Brighter Vision website, you get paired with a professional web developer that understands you and your practice and will bring to life a beautiful, unique website paired with unbeatable SEO. They won’t leave you in the dust once your site is built, rather, you’ll have the option to change anything on your site with their unlimited customer support policy.
Brighter Vision is having their biggest sale of the year right now! (January 2019)
Save $120 on your first year by locking in your entire first year for just $49/month!
Check them out here: https://www.brightervision.com/guide/
Relevant Episodes: Therapist Safety
The Brand Called You
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT on Race, Ethnicity, Culture, Privilege and Bias. Curt and Katie talk with Stevon about how white therapists and therapists of color can (and should) open up conversations on these important topics, looking at why it is so hard and why it is critical we do so anyway.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT Stevon Lewis is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist practicing in Torrance, CA. He earned Bachelors of Arts degrees in Psychology and Afro-Ethnic Studies from California State University, Fullerton. He also has a Master’s of Science degree in Counseling with an emphasis in Marriage and Family Therapy from California State University, Long Beach. Stevon began his therapy career in 2007 as a therapist at a community mental health agency in Long Beach working with the families of adolescents involved with the juvenile justice system. Currently, Stevon is the Director of Counseling Services at Woodbury University, a small private university in Burbank, CA. There he oversees the psychotherapy for all students, supervises two licensed clinicians, two associates, and provides consultation to faculty and staff.
Stevon has a private practice in Torrance where he works with adults struggling with Impostor Syndrome, depression, anxiety and stress, and couples experiencing difficulty in their relationships as a result of poor communication and unmet expectations.
In addition, he is the Past President of the Long Beach-South Bay Chapter of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists.
You can learn more about Stevon at: www.stevonlewis.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Barriers that therapists of color face that white therapists do not * How the curriculums of our clinical programs are based on white norms (and thoughts on what we should put in these curriculums to address this bias) * The different perspectives that are missed when we rely on these white norms * The othering of people of color in these programs * How race and ethnicity come into the room * How to obtain the information that you need, seeing the world from other perspectives * The bias that can come up and turn into microaggressions * How to seek knowledge without putting the responsibility of teaching on the people of color around you * The value of curiosity and Google, cultural humility * Ideas for productive conversations about culture, race, ethnicity * How to identify what you are responsible for * The impact of historical trauma, racial injustice, and slavery on the conversations now * A deeper look at bias and the impact of individual and societal bias on our interactions * The pain of shame, defensiveness, and perceived divisiveness that might hinder our progress * The importance of white people talking about race, and of white allies * How to identify if your program is pushing you to be white-normed * Ideas to translate the lessons to apply to you as an individual and calling out “this isn’t going to work for me” * Encouraging the conversations about how we are perceived by society and how that can impact the relationship in the room * The idea that we can have feelings about the clients we see – the need to be conscious about it and releasing guilt about negative or neutral feelings about our clients
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Grief Education!
How often do you avoid talking about death and bereavement with your clients? Don’t worry you’re not the only one. The fact is, every client will be impacted by grief at some point. You can be great at supporting them through it! Grief Education offers online classes where you’ll learn what current, validated research tells us about these experiences and you’ll practice talking about grief and death so you’ll be confident talking about it with your clients. Visit www.GriefEducation.com to learn more and register for classes.
Relevant Resources: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Nothing is Absolute Podcast
www.stevonlewis.com
Instagram: StevonLewisMFT
Twitter: StevonLewisMFT
Cultural Humility
The Modern Therapists Group on Facebook
Therapy Reimagined 2019
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the difference between talking about what’s wrong and actually doing something about it. Katie shares her BOSS acronym for making decisions and taking action.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Taking action rather than just talking about what needs to change * Identifying what you want to take action on * Experimenting, finding what you’re motivated to actually do * The big goals that we have pursued and continue to act on * Making commitments to others can help move action forward * Vision, goals, and connecting to like-minded people to accomplish goals * Creating the structure to be able to accomplish big dreams * The challenges in our profession that warrant consideration for taking action * A call to action to think about the conversations you’re having and identify actionable steps for creating change * Katie’s acronym for making decisions: BOSS (Bold Objective Selective Strategic) * Finding your big bold vision * Creating your personal mission statement * Looking at logistics (time, energy, timing, etc.) * Saying yes also means saying no * Creating the plan – scheduling tasks, not creating a to do list * The importance of structure and support
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Grief Education!
How often do you avoid talking about death and bereavement with your clients? Don’t worry you’re not the only one. The fact is, every client will be impacted by grief at some point. You can be great at supporting them through it! Grief Education offers online classes where you’ll learn what current, validated research tells us about these experiences and you’ll practice talking about grief and death so you’ll be confident talking about it with your clients. Visit www.GriefEducation.com to learn more and register for classes.
Relevant Episodes: It’s Time to Think About Your Goals
So You Want to Put on a Conference
Creating an Effective Schedule
Delegating Virtually Anything
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Simon Sinek’s Start With Why
CAMFT (California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists)
#therapymovement
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Nicol Stolar-Peterson, LCSW, BCD, Expert Witness aka The Court Chick, on how to prepare for court, what to put in your court policy for your informed consent, and how she created an alternative revenue stream.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Nicol Stolar-Peterson, LCSW Nicol Stolar-Peterson, LCSW, BCD is an expert witness as it relates to child abuse, sexual abuse, CPS, family violence and child custody. She worked for CPS for over 11.5 years as an investigator, forensic interviewer and adoptions social worker. Nicol is the founder and director of Kids Court & Counseling Center, 501c3, that helps children prepare for court testimony and appearances if they are victims of crimes, witnesses to crimes, in foster care and/or going through a litigious custody battle where testimony occurs. Nicol is appointed as the court’s expert on family law matters as the designated child custody evaluator.
Nicol also enjoys speaking on the concept of “the permission to succeed and the risk of being happy.” Her book is coming out in 2019 and guess what the title is? “The permission to succeed and the risk of being happy.” Nicol also sells Rodan & Fields as an independent consultant and helps other’s build a business of residual income around their families and their lives. This is a complete departure from her “day job” and it brings her joy and inspiration helping other’s build their own business.
You can find Nicol at www.therapistcourtprep.com and www.nicol.live.
In this episode we talk about: * Nicol’s story of how and why she became interested in court * How Nicol created Therapist Court Prep * Court Policy to put into Informed Consent * What needs to be discussed at the beginning of treatment related to court, writing letters, etc. * Do NOT ignore your subpoenas * Setting fees for court-related activities (can do flat rate) * Going to court is not our job * Scope of practice, dual relationships related to court-requirements * Do not make a child-custody recommendation unless you are appointed by the court * The importance of getting clear on what you can do as a therapist, counselor, social worker, psychologist * How the therapeutic alliance causes bias in a legal setting * Observation versus Opinion – and how you can get in trouble when you add your opinion into custody cases * Imagine reading letter on the stand to determine what you should be putting in that letter * The threat of a bench warrant when you ignore subpoenas * Litigious times when clients weaponize therapists * Subpoena for records does not mean a treatment summary * When in court, don’t guess – say I don’t know * Don’t try to hide treatment information * How to set court rates, rates for writing letters * The value of preparation when going to court * What to wear for court * Success stories from court
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links:
Zynnyme
Sherry Shockey-Pope and Therapist Practice in a Box
Evidence Code 730
CAMFT (California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists) Legal Advice
Free Court Letter Cheat Sheet on Therapist Court Prep
Dr. Pamela Harmell
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about union therapists and a strike in California. We look at antitrust, labor disputes, implications of striking, and how to improve working conditions, treatment, and outcomes.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * A strike by the Union of Health Care Workers at Kaiser Permanente in California * Historical perspective on Kaiser Permanente * Union statement on why they are striking * The Union asks from Kaiser * Our desire to be objective * The ideas that we support: increased mental health access, improved mental health treatment, and positive work environments, fair wages, and sustainable work standards * How union workers increasing wages impacts nonunion clinics * The different perspectives on what the discussion is about and why the strike is happening * How change can happen, what conversations might be happening * Being adversarial, being productive, and when they are mutually exclusive * Things to consider while therapists are striking * The offer for crossing labor lines and why that can be problematic clinically * The current state of Kaiser mental health care and the possibility of what could be * The financial priorities that Kaiser has put on their required improvements * Reflections on how the strikers may be feeling or handling the situation
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Motivo!
Motivo provides clinical supervision online through a HIPAA compliant video platform. Motivo was started by Rachel McCrickard, a LMFT who attended Azusa Pacific University in CA. Rachel had a difficult time finding quality affordable supervision after graduate school. After state licensure boards began allowing online supervision, she became inspired to take action. Therapists are able to search through a directory of quality clinical supervisors, licensed in states throughout the country. Session rates range from only $40-60 per hour.
To find out more, go to www.wearemotivo.com or email hello@wearemotivo.com. You can also call them at 470-231-1256. Mention the Modern Therapist podcast and receive your first session for free.
Relevant Episodes: The Burnout System
Addressing the Burnout System
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Article from San Francisco Examiner
Statement from National Union of Healthcare Workers
The Statement from Kaiser
Saving Psychotherapy by Benjamin E. Caldwell
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Marquita Johnson, Licensed Professional Counselor and Millennial Dating Coach, on incorporating technology in your clinical work with millennials. We look at tele-mental health and other ways that technology can positively impact therapy.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Marquita Johnson, LPC, MDiv, NCC, BC-TMH, CPCS Marquita Johnson is a graduate of Mercer University with a Master of Science in Community Counseling and Master of Divinity. Marquita received her undergraduate degree from Georgia State University in Psychology & Sociology. Currently, Marquita is pursuing a doctoral degree in Counselor Education and Supervision at Walden University. She is a licensed professional counselor, nationally certified counselor, board certified tele-mental counselor, and certified professional counseling supervisor. Marquita’s specialties include women, dating, divorce, step-families, and grief related to loss in relationships. In an effort to promote healthy relationships, Marquita started offering coaching services to help millennials who are dating. While working as a college counselor she found that students were struggling with intrapersonal and interpersonal relationships. Hence, she has embraced the call as Atlanta's "Millennial Dating Coach." Marquita’s private practice is located in the heart of Atlanta: Millennial Counseling, Coaching, and Consulting.
In this episode we talk about: * Marquita’s work with millennials and how she incorporates technology in sessions * Tele-mental Health * Reasons to incorporate telehealth into treatment * The differences between in-person and telehealth sessions * How to assess and prepare your clients for telehealth * How to engage and use the technology to increase the connection over video * Transitioning between in person and telehealth * The skills needed to assess body language, nonverbals, etc. when you are not getting the in-person experience * Connecting with a client’s presence while online * Making sure to have environment that is free from distractions, that you have a good internet connection, and that you are working on a HIPAA compliant platform * The importance of looking in the camera and how to adjust your communication patterns to address the differences * Consciously talking about how technology will impact the conversation * How to incorporate your theoretical orientation AND technology into your work * The limitations of technology in treatment * When telehealth is not indicated * Risks to consider * Thoughts on marketing to millennials (social media, podcasts) * What mistakes therapists make in establishing or running an online practice * Scope of practice concerns * Where you can practice, how to practice in states where you don’t live * The resources you need to know when you’re practicing remotely * The slippery slope of doing therapy in your state and then calling everything else coaching * The need for separate entities for coaching and therapy * The types of continuing education that is helpful to set you up for success
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy
TeleHealth Certification Institute
Millennial Dating Coach Website
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Motivo!
Motivo provides clinical supervision online through a HIPAA compliant video platform. Motivo was started by Rachel McCrickard, a LMFT who attended Azusa Pacific University in CA. Rachel had a difficult time finding quality affordable supervision after graduate school. After state licensure boards began allowing online supervision, she became inspired to take action. Therapists are able to search through a directory of quality clinical supervisors, licensed in states throughout the country. Session rates range from only $40-60 per hour.
To find out more, go to www.wearemotivo.com or email hello@wearemotivo.com. You can also call them at 470-231-1256. Mention the Modern Therapist podcast and receive your first session for free.
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how to make sure that you are making decisions that respect clinical and business principles AND meet the requirements for laws and ethics.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Treatment strategies that are based on evidence-based practices, that may need extra information up front to avoid seeming coercive to families (i.e., required sessions, frequency or length of treatment) * The importance of defining the unit of treatment in the initial assessment * What needs to happen in the conversations with the clients * What is the treatment need? * How treatment orientation can impact business decisions * What limits you can set related to requirements for parents in treatment for children * Addressing treatment within the therapeutic alliance, in the treatment planning process, rather than holding to business parameters that go unaddressed clinically * Consciously discussing boundaries and compliance with treatment model, not allowing for clinical drift or an unacknowledged broken frame * The fear of challenging clients, fear of losing income * Looking at whether you can provide the level of treatment required * Whether we should be as flexible as our clients * Balancing our needs with the needs of our clients looking at both clinical and business reasons to determine how flexible to be * Bad clinical decisions that are based on business inflexibility * You don’t want business policies to overshadow the clinical decisions and clinical efficacy * Setting pricing strategies – doing bulk pricing or monthly pricing can get very complex and there are a lot of legal and ethical considerations * When we must sacrifice for our clients and when we can hold the boundaries * Separating assessment from treatment * Referring to treatment teams * The importance of good consultation to help talk through cases * The ethics codes do not require that you keep a client indefinitely * Ethical termination and referral options
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 or https://ter.li/simple18 to sign up for a free 30-day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Relevant Episodes: Managing Client Cancellations
Asking for Money
Ending Therapy
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Angela Caldwell, MFT at the Self-Injury Institute
DBT
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Jo Muirhead, chief life changer and business coach, on how self-promotion positively impacts your clinical work. We also talk about how therapists need to invest in their business training to be a successful entrepreneur.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jo Muirhead Jo is all about connecting people to purpose through inspiration and innovation. She is the Founder, Director and Principal Consultant of Purple Co (www.PurpleCo.com.au), a team of specialist allied health consultants dedicated to helping people who experience injury, illness and trauma reclaim their lives through work. Jo is passionate about the health benefits of work and truly believes that everyone has the right to meaningful and rewarding employment. Purple Co grew out of this belief as a truncated form of PURpose for peoPLE.
Jo and her team also provide a range of career development and coaching services to professionals who are ready to explore change in their career and find the map towards career fulfillment.
Jo is Uber passionate about private practice. You should see the video on her home page of her website. She loves to empower clinicians to build profitable and sustainable businesses through doing more of the work they love, the way they love to do it (www.jomuirhead.com).
In this episode we talk about: * Jo’s story of being told she couldn’t build her business and doing it anyway * Being an entrepreneur and thinking bigger than what is in front of you, thinking ahead of your clients * The tendency for therapists to follow “the rules” to their detriment * What an entrepreneurial clinician means * Self-promotion and marketing * How professional organizations and ethical codes are behind the times related to self-promotion * The tendency of people to judge others in the FB groups * Getting in the head and the heart of your client, so you can give them something of value * What we miss in the therapeutic relationship when we stay too clinical * How consumers have changed since the dawn of the internet * The differences across countries related to practicing therapy * The importance of understanding what is going on in the world and how it impacts what you can do as an entrepreneur * Looking at the code of conduct or ethics code to determine how you behave as a professional * How therapists get in their own way by only “investing” in the free stuff to learn business * What to do when you don’t know what you don’t know * The trouble with jumping too early into alternative revenue streams * Managing expectations around what you can make and how to set up your business * The difference between alternative revenue streams and marketing tools * The most harmful myths that have been put out there about entrepreneurship * How so many people access information and don’t implement it * The shocking truth that not everyone needs to be in private practice * Working out what works best for you * Investing money AND time in building your business * What you should invest in first, when building a private practice * Getting clarity on who you are, what you do well, and how you move forward * Jo’s pushing against the “7-Step System” models that so many coaches use * Jo’s best advice for therapists wanting to become entrepreneurial clinicians
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy
This is Private Practice
Jo on Facebook
The Entrepreneurial Clinician by Jo Muirhead
PURPLE CO
jomuirhead.com
Previous Episodes Mentioned: The Brand Called You
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 or https://ter.li/simple18 to sign up for a free 30-day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how to handle the drama that can happen at your work or school setting. We talk about when to take action and when it is more important to manage the logistics and protect your reputation and employability.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * What to do when your agency or your program closes out or there is DRAMA * How it works within a school program that closes * Making decisions when you have to face this type of crisis * Making sure to get information to help you with your decision making * Balancing supporting your peers and taking care of yourself * How to do due diligence to move forward * Understanding the motivations of all parties involved * Looking out for your own best interest * Navigating and understanding the rumor mill * Understanding how rumors, drama, etc., can impact you personally * Sorting through when you should stand up and advocate and when you keep your head down * Creating an exit plan * Reputation management * The problem with getting frozen * The caution required when you decide to stand up for someone else (especially when you don’t have all the information) * Choosing your battles * Protecting your own reputation and employability * Managing your resume * How the way you talk about what has happened will reflect on you * Making sure to remain professional * Discussing the reasons that Curt and Katie work for themselves * Identifying when you can live with the drama and when you need to move on * Handling logistics to take care of your needs * Assessing what is worth it
Relevant Episodes Toxic Work Environments
Interview Strategies for Therapists
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 or https://ter.li/simple18 to sign up for a free 30-day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Dr. Abigail Weissman, a psychologist and self-proclaimed “super queer.” Curt and Katie talk with Abi about how she decides which aspects of her identity (Jewish, queer, lesbian, trans-esque) she discloses with her clients and with the public. We also dig into Abi’s reactions to current events and how she gets the support she needs, while holding hope for her clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Abigail Weissman Abigail (“Abi”) Weissman is a California clinical psychologist, earning her doctorate in Clinical Psychology (PSY 27497) with a dissertation on helping psychologists to be supporting, respectful, and effective with their transgender Jewish clients. She holds a Master of Arts in Human Sexuality studies that focused on femme lesbian identity and completed a Certificate in Sex Education. She serves as a Member At Large – Professional Practice, of the Board of Directors of the San Diego Psychological Association. She is also the Chair of the LGBT Committee for the San Diego Psychological Association. A self-proclaimed “super queer” she loves to empower others, especially those who wish they could be their full queer, transgender, religious, liberal, activist, polyamorous, and/or kink selves, but hold themselves back because they are scared they will be unloved, unemployed, and rejected by their loved ones and communities. Abi provides individual and group therapy for LGBTQIQAP-identified clients as well as training for other professionals on how to be more LGBTQIQAP-affirming in clinical practice and in business. Her pronouns are she, her hers. You can learn more about Abi and her group practice Waves, A Psychological Corporation, at www.wavespsych.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Vulnerability during the recent events as a member of impacted, marginalized communities * Abi’s comfort level with talking about being Jewish, queer, lesbian, trans (or “trans-esque” in her parlance) * How she decides how to present herself, how she tells her story, her level of safety * How Abi “leans in” whenever she feels unsafe – how sharing who she is first, makes her feel safer * Civil and social justice advocacy as a therapist * Her hesitation to talk about LGBTQ as a single community and the problem with “lumping” them all together. The importance of hearing all the different, unique perspectives. * Sitting as a leader in your therapy room and feeling vulnerable as the events in society impact you personally * Holding hope for therapy clients as well as for society, and grieving for her own losses and feeling her own fears and her own despair * Reflecting on the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue shooting as well as reactions to the memo seeking to make gender binary – both how Abi is reacting personally and what she is hearing (and not hearing) from her clients * Where Abi is finding her hope, healing, and getting her support * The ways that antisemitism still shows up in daily life (even in small ways) * Having to choose how she shows up as an activist with these intersectional needs that aren’t respected * How thoughtful she is about where she lives and what she stands up and does for her community * What therapists often get wrong related to LGBTQ * The frequent problem of othering people within the therapist community who happen to be LGBTQ * The problem with putting people as far away – and the need to bring all people closer to understand and show compassion for them (rather than fearing them) * The importance of believing trans people * How allies can do better in supporting LGBTQ people * The conversations that can happen between allies and LGBTQ people * Addressing bias with humility and connection * The importance of paying for consultation
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Waves, A Psychological Corporation: www.wavespsych.com
Abi’s availability for consultation: https://www.wavespsych.com/contact
The book Abi was talking about related to bringing ancestors into the room: Native American Postcolonial Psychology By Eduardo Duran, Bonnie Duran
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 or https://ter.li/simple18 to sign up for a free 30-day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about termination of treatment, both when it is planned and when it is unplanned. We look at best practices, challenges, and how to handle it the best way you can.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * When to start talking about termination during treatment * Setting expectations for the end of treatment * How to address client’s instinct to “ghost” from treatment * Normalizing the different paths to ending treatment * Different reasons that you may not be able to complete treatment * Planning ahead to diminish negative impacts of abrupt terminations that are out of your control * Providing referrals, closure, and understanding that even that doesn’t always create positive outcomes * The elements of a positive termination * Managing expectations of what health and healing are and what would qualify someone to finish treatment * Highlighting strengths and progress as well as on-going goals and challenges * Acknowledging the relationship you’ve had with the client * Processing your own response to the termination * What to look at and learn when your client abruptly terminates * Requesting termination sessions when someone decides to end suddenly – things to consider * What to do when your client ghosts you * Closing the client’s chart
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 or https://ter.li/simple18 to sign up for a free 30-day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Therapy Reimagined 2019: Sign up here to get notified when the details are released.
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with family law attorney Laura A. Wasser, Esq. Curt and Katie talk with Laura about the process of divorce, collaboration among professionals, and the creation of her online divorce mediation platform, it’s over easy.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Laura A. Wasser, Esq. C.E.O. of it’s over easy & Host of The Divorce Sucks! Podcast Attorney Laura Allison Wasser is an author, entrepreneur, and Family Law expert. She is the
founder and Chief Executive Officer of the online divorce platform, it’s over easy. Laura has represented celebrities like Kim Kardashian, Ryan Reynolds, Angelina Jolie, Jimmy Iovine, Maria Shriver, and Stevie Wonder, but she maintains that divorce is the great equalizer—it terrifies everyone. Laura’s made it her mission to change that by creating it’s over easy, which gives divorcing couples an easy to use resource to dissolve their marriage that is accessible (and affordable) to everyone.
In 2013, Laura authored the New York Times best-seller, It Doesn’t Have to Be That Way: How to
Divorce Without Destroying Your Family and Bankrupting Yourself. This year, she created it’s over
easy and launched the weekly Divorce Sucks! Podcast Hosted By Laura Wasser. By simplifying the
divorce process online and sharing her vast experience in Family Law with her audience, couples
are empowered to reclaim control over their own destinies. Laura is determined to change the
face of divorce by providing education, tools and support for families going through the process.
As a graduate of the UC, Berkeley, Laura earned her law degree from Loyola Law School. She has
been named one of the California Daily Journal’s Top 100 Lawyers and Top 50 Women Attorneys
every year for the last seven years (2012-2018). She has been featured on The Hollywood Reporter’s Power Lawyers, Los Angeles Magazine’s Super Lawyers and The Best Lawyers in America. In June 2008, Laura received the Harriet Buhai Center for Family Law Zephyr Ramsey Award and in 2011, she was the recipient of the Century City Chamber of Commerce Women of Achievement Award. Laura received the Brady Center Advocate Award in 2013. In 2016 Laura was honored by A Place Called Home at their Gala For The Children. Laura is frequently called upon as the preeminent voice on TV, in print and across the media landscape in newsworthy matters regarding Divorce and Family Law. Earlier this year, Laura
participated as a featured speaker at both the 2018 Women In The World Summit and Girlboss
Rally. Profiles and interviews on Laura can be found in Vogue, Bloomberg News, Porter Magazine,
Interview, The Wall Street Journal, Vanity Fair, The Hollywood Reporter, People Magazine, The New
York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Town and Country, Parenting magazine and more.
In this episode we talk about: * Laura’s background in Family Law, her book It Doesn’t Have to Be That Way * How Laura perceives the importing distinctions between being an empathic “divorce” lawyer and being a therapist * How people can navigate through divorce by yourselves, without needing to bring in a divorce attorney * The different mechanisms to get a divorce and how to decide which referral to make * How Laura collaborates with therapists and decides to refer to therapists * The importance of handling divorce well for moving forward in your life * Her opinions on how to help families get through the process * Boundaries that attorneys should set within their work * Her referral network, how she develops her referral network * The turn off of therapists talking too much about their own experiences * Reminding ourselves that we are being observed by those who we are collaborating with * The shock of mental health providers breaking confidentiality with her * How she launched her product out to the market (online divorce platform) * Her logic on how she created the platform, with all the pieces considered * The flak she got from some other attorneys * Connecting divorcing individuals to all the resources they need to move through the process effectively * Addressing the broken, clogged up court system * How to create closure when getting divorced * The power of helping people get the knowledge they need
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
It Doesn’t Have to be That Way: How to Divorce Without Destroying Your Family or Bankrupting Yourself by Laura Wasser
it’s over easy
it’s over easy blog: Co-Parenting with an Asshole
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 to sign up for a free 30 day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the ups and downs of planning Therapy Reimagined 2018. We share tips and tricks for planning an event as well as things we’re going to do differently next year.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Reflecting on Therapy Reimagined 2018 * The importance of planning ahead * Creating time and space to do something extra * How to create buzz and excitement throughout a long event * Messaging and marketing * The importance of creating a cohesive marketing plan from the beginning * The loss of creativity and perspective when you are super busy and overwhelmed * Delegating when something grows bigger than you can manage on your own * The danger of burnout when working TOO much, even when you are doing something you love * Taking care of the details and creating templates for the next year * Event planning and negotiating with the venue – knowing what you don’t know * Planning ahead – not just creating stuff to use now, but actually making templates and structures that are repeatable * Getting and supporting sponsors * Creating relationships and leveraging them to grow the movement * Being very clear with the information that sponsors, speakers, and exhibitors can and should share, and when. How important it is to be specific. * Being directive, respectful, and specific on how people can help and participate * Understanding that we packed WAY TOO MUCH into 2 days * Thinking through your whole schedule from the participants’ perspective * Making sure you put forward clear instructions for your participants * The challenge we had with continuing education sign in and certificates (#fail) * How to vet speakers, working with them earlier in the process, the details that are important * Taking care of the technological aspects of presenting multiple speakers * Looking at it as a production, versus an “educational event” * Getting feedback from everyone who attended to improve (our deliberate practice) * Announcing the tentative plans for Therapy Reimagined 2019 * How to incorporate feedback and criticism into future decision-making, and how important it is to be responsive
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 to sign up for a free 30-day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Katie Read Katie Write
#therapymovement
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
Relevant Previous Episodes:
Own Your Awesome Business (with Kelly Higdon)
The Burnout System
Addressing The Burnout System
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Barbara Griswold, LMFT – Curt and Katie talk with Barbara about what it is really like to have an insurance-based private practice. We look at the common myths and strategies to navigate taking insurance.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Barbara Griswold, MFT, practice consultant, and author Barbara Griswold, MFT, is a practice consultant and the author of Navigating the Insurance Maze: The Therapist's Complete Guide to Working with Insurance -- And Whether You Should (www.theinsurancemaze.com), now in the newly-updated seventh edition. She invites therapists to contact her through her website to get answers to insurance questions, for practice-building support, and to subscribe to her free monthly e-newsletter to keep abreast of the ever-changing world of insurance. In private practice in San Jose, California, Barbara has been interviewed on NPR's “Morning Edition," and her articles have appeared in Psychotherapy Networker and The Therapist magazines. She is a past member of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapist’s State Ethics Committee and Board of Directors, and former Oral Licensing Examiner for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences.
In this episode we talk about: * The impressions that we often have about taking insurance * Why to take insurance: Accessibility of services, full practice with a waitlist without a waitlist, trade off on costs and fees taken * The small marketing steps needed to maximize insurance practices: provider directories, website * Expanding your practice beyond wealthy clients – increasing diversity and accessibility, capacity for long-term therapy * Taking insurance without selling your soul * Barbara never makes a clinical decision based on insurance * Sorting through the common myths about taking insurance * What makes you appealing to insurance panels * Requirements for getting onto panels * The online “filing cabinet” for applying for insurance – CAQH * The importance of niche and specialization – even for insurance * Strategies for pointing out your value to insurance panels * Learning what the contracted fee is on an insurance panel and how to negotiate up front * How to ask insurance panels for a raise * The real truth about the paperwork * Improving reimbursement rates and timeline to be paid * Using an insurance biller * What to do when insurance panels say they are not accepting new providers in your area
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
CAMFT (California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists)
CAQH
Navigating the Insurance Maze: The Therapist's Complete Guide to Working with Insurance -- And Whether You Should (www.theinsurancemaze.com)
Office Ally
Barbara’s Insurance Billers Referral List
Barbara’s Webinar on Progress Notes
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 to sign up for a free 30 day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about taking personal responsibility to decrease the impacts of the “Burnout Machine” that is the mental health profession. We look at what should go into an ideal work place and actions each of us can take to improve our own situation as well as the system as a whole.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Looking at how to create better systems for mental health workplaces * Magical places that could provide adequate pay, training, and emotionally-focused supervision * The importance of incorporating the appropriate employee support into budgets * Employee engagement versus turnover * The need for larger conversations with stakeholders to improve things systemically * Sorting through the challenges and benefits of efficiency and productivity * Looking at training supervisors * The faulty notion that therapy isn’t about the therapist * The need for the business or administrative aspects – we can’t get rid of them. * Employee, employer, or entrepreneur skills are required for the system to work * Balancing the focus on the clinician as a member of the system, a professional, and as an individual * The risks of human connection within an employment situation * The benefits of exploring the emotions and human connection on professional development, client outcomes * Looking at the expectations around supervision that are described in graduate school * Addressing the parallel process within the supervisor/supervisee and therapist/client * The power differential in becoming a supervisor and navigating the relationship * Knowing ourselves at all developmental stages * The impact of “Supervision of Supervision” groups * The unfortunate scenario where people are rushing to licensure without meeting their developmental stages * Being able to support prelicensees’ primary needs of survival (providing financial stability) so they can slow down and take care of their developmental stages * How to set up a career that works for you * How to identify opportunities to move the profession forward * Assessing your own capacities to improve your career and the profession * The problem of being cynical and complaining about the system instead of taking action * Taking a personal look and personal responsibility for your career
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, SimplePractice!
SimplePractice is an all in one platform where you can schedule appointments, use paperless intakes, file insurance claims, and meet with clients remotely using our integrated Telehealth system.
Go to https://ter.li/tr2018 to sign up for a free 30 day trial.
Because running your practice should be Simple, so you can do the work that really matters.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
EFT-Based Supervision
Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
#therapymovement
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
Relevant Previous Episodes:
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Getting the Supervision You Want
Toxic Work Environments
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about how the mental health system is set up to lead to burnout. We look at how therapists typically develop over their careers and how educational, licensing, regulation, and business factors can get in the way of this development.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The shift from therapist development focus to a focus on client-care * Sacrificial Helping Syndrome, Compassion Fatigue, and Burnout * The systemic problems that lead to burnout (education, licensing, regulation, business practices) * The impact of the economy on therapists being able to meet their developmental milestones * The standard developmental stages of therapists * The typical challenges of each stage and how a broken system can make these challenges even harder (or impossible) to navigate * Some of the educational or licensing requirements that seem to go against how people best learn and develop * The challenge of constantly being in crisis (whether it is about getting hours timely, financial strain, or working with clients with high risk) and trying to become a therapist * How the people around us while we are learning impacts how we develop as therapists * The struggle to set up a positive learning environment when you’re starting out as a therapist * The most important time of training (prelicensed years, especially the first 70 hours) being plagued with high productivity and clients with high risk, which lead to moving quickly, not becoming stronger clinicians * The reasons to slow down your prelicensed years for training and personal development and the challenges in doing so * The aspects of training that would be ideal (and seem almost magical and impossible) * Recovery-oriented training, crisis management, trauma-informed systems * The possibilities for improving public mental health and other workplaces to provide a better environment to start and grow as a clinician * EFT-Based Supervision as a good standard * The conversations that we need to have with stakeholders across the system to work toward change
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Center For Discovery!
Center for Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Ben Caldwell Labs Blog Article
Saving Psychotherapy by Benjamin E. Caldwell
Katie’s concept of Sacrificial Helping Syndrome
Article on Stages of Development of a Therapist
Scott Miller’s work
Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
EFT-Based Supervision
#therapymovement
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
A LIVE interview with Celisa Flores, Psy.D. – Curt and Katie talk with Celisa about what stress does to you and your body and what therapists can do to take better care of their bodies, their brains, and their mental health. Celisa also delves into burnout AND the benefits of yoga and meditation.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Celisa Flores, Psy.D. Since obtaining a master’s degree in Counseling in 2007 at CSU Fresno and a PsyD in Clinical Psychology from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology in 2013, Dr. Flores worked as a therapist in a wide variety of mental health treatment settings, with emphasis on Eating Disorders, Mindfulness and women’s issues. Now proudly with Center for Discovery, providing clinical outreach for Ventura County and the Central California region.
With a history of providing individual, group, family, and couples counseling services, as well as therapeutic yoga services, Dr. Flores has focused on evidence-based practices, providing guidance and support in Mindfulness in Recovery, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT), and other self-empowerment strategies. In addition to training as a therapist, she is a Certified Yoga Teacher, also trained in Mindful Stress Reduction. By integrating a variety of holistic tools into recovery and wellness, she works to create a long-lasting, sustainable wellness plan.
Dr. Flores also provides consultation, teaching and training for students, professionals, and community groups, which have included youth conferences, the CSU school systems, international speaking and NASA. In effort to support other therapists and community members with understanding eating disorders and treatment, she is always open to consider future speaking and training opportunities.
In this episode we talk about: * How (and why) our bodies store trauma * The use of yoga (both poses and principles) * How the fight or flight response (when we don’t fight or flee) impacts our bodies * How our brain has evolved, and how we respond to stressors that are not literally life or death. * Yoga – joining body and breath – to calm the fight or flight nervous system * The importance of the breath in how we feel * Diaphragmatic breathing * The importance of getting out of a narrow view AND in getting out of Fight or Flight in order to be best able to support our clients * Approachable strategies that make small moments of self-care possible * Distress tolerance corners (and activities that are especially good for distress tolerance) * Proactively planning for self-care and distress tolerance coping * What the real consequences of poor self-care are (including rapid aging and current dangers) * Some yoga stretches that you can use in your office (and Curt’s desire to be a yoga therapist) * How to remind yourself that yourself to self-care and how to hold yourself accountable * How meditation changes your brain and how to make it approachable
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk
When by Daniel Pink
Gabor Mate
Find Celisa online: her website Linked In
Her email: celisa.flores@centerfordiscovery.com
Previous Episode mentioned:
Being Truly Mindful
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Center For Discovery!
Center for Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Eboni Harris, Co-Founder of Melanin and Mental Health – Curt and Katie talk with Eboni about people of color, both clients and clinicians, and what therapists often get wrong about cultural competence, continuing education, and the uncomfortable conversations we need to be having to decrease mental health stigma, racism, and ignorance.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Eboni Harris, LPC, LMFT Eboni Harris is a licensed relationship therapist, co-founder of Melanin and Mental Health™, Founder of Room for Relations and host of Room for Relations: Sex and Relationship Podcast. Through her education she has learned the skills and techniques to help individuals and couples love better, stronger and longer. Through life she has learned that taking care of yourself is the best thing you can do for you and the ones you love. Her goal is to help adults communicate with clarity and honesty, love with passion and intention and teach their little ones the value of boundaries, compassion and trust.
In this episode we talk about: * Eboni’s story and how she came to co-found Melanin and Mental Health * Connecting therapists of color to help decrease mental health stigma and improve the quality of clinical care for people of color * Creating a directory for clinicians of color * Psychology Today’s lack of ethnic diversity on their magazine * How it feels to be leading a movement, especially when people don’t get it * The Melanin and Mental Health tag line: Therapy is Dope When You Have a Dope Therapist. * The types of training and conversations that need to happen to support the increasingly diverse population of clients * Cultural humility and cultural competence * What therapists get wrong when working cross culturally * The damage done when clinicians dismiss race as a factor * Lack of understanding of cultural, ethnic, gender identity and impacts on life and in the therapy room * Micro-aggressions that can even happen in treatment * The problem with referring out all clients of different ethnicities * The institutional concerns within the mental health profession that provide obstacles both for clients entering treatment as well as clinicians entering the profession * Mental Health Access and the complexity of hiring clinicians or finding therapists who are culturally competent * The role that fear and ignorance that can lead to poor interventions * Responding as a human being, not a member of the establishment (calling the police, CPS, etc.) * Understanding how passive ignorance can be a bigger problem than overt racism * Using privilege and access to help solve the problem and be an ally. * What needs to change in our profession to better support people of color * Understanding healing with a more diverse lens. * The importance of understanding your biases * Uncomfortable conversations that lead to positive change
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Melanin and Mental Health™
Petition to demand more diversity from Psychology Today Magazine
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Center For Discovery!
Center for Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Ashley Graber, LMFT – Curt and Katie talk with Ashley about mindfulness and meditation – how to incorporate into daily life, considerations for teaching your clients, and the things that therapists can get wrong when using mindfulness interventions!
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Ashley Graber, LMFT After 15 years working in Commercial Real Estate in New York City, Ashley Graber changed the direction of her life to the worlds of Psychology and Meditation & Mindfulness. Ashley came to these practices after getting sober and in the decade plus since, she now runs a busy mindfulness-based psychotherapy practice at Yale Street Therapy (www.YaleStreetTherapy.com) in Santa Monica, CA. Ashley is the Director of Curriculum for the next generation meditation app & mindfulness company, Evenflow. Ashley received her clinical degree from Antioch University and has trained extensively in Meditation & Mindfulness practices, earning her certificate in Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) through The Center for Mindfulness at UC San Diego. She has also trained in Mindful Schools (teaching mindfulness and meditation to children), Trauma Resiliency Model (TRM), and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR). Ashley was recently on Good Morning LaLa Land, spoke on Resilience at this year’s renowned Wisdom. 2.0 Mindfulness & Technology conference, and is putting her psychotherapy and Meditation & Mindfulness skills into print with a “how to” book for families. Learn more at www.AshleyGraberTherapy.com.
In this episode we talk about: * How Ashley puts her message out widely * Meditation and mindfulness tools that can help clients throughout their life. * Making meditation and mindfulness accessible * The difference between mindfulness and meditation * The importance of avoiding judgment to decrease suffering * Living in the present moment, without a lens of judgment * Shinzen’s equation: Pain X Resistance = Suffering * How we are most awake and alive in the present moment * How to continue to return to the present moment * Important ways to self-assess when thoughts, emotions, behaviors are unhealthy, including looking at the physical sensations in the present moment * The importance of being consistent with mindfulness practice * The requirements for therapists to have a regular practice before teaching clients * How to incorporate practices, getting mentorship and training * Different tools for teaching mindfulness and meditation to clients * Adjustments for clients who cannot sit in meditation, so they can experience mindfulness (especially those who have complex trauma, anxiety) * How therapists can consciously add mindfulness activities to their day. * Slow down the pace between sessions, consciously breathing, weaving some slower moments into your life. * The importance of using your senses, getting outside * Scheduling meditation * Setting reminders * How mentorship works in meditation * The resources of Even Flow (the app, the meditation/mindfulness company) * The different types of certifications and training for mindfulness * The inquiry process after the mindfulness practice (and its importance)
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Evenflow Meditation app
Yale Street Therapy
Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Classes
Jon Kabat Zinn
Chris Crotty at AgainstTheStream, Boston
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Center For Discovery!
Center for Discovery provides evidence-based treatment for eating disorders, binge eating disorders, mental health, substance use, and co-occurring conditions nationwide. Discovery offers gender inclusive and gender-specific treatment with separate programming for adolescent and adults. Programs have a high staff to client ratio because individualized attention is critical when it comes to providing effective and efficient treatment. Learn more about these clinical programs at CenterForDiscovery.com. Discovery offers free resources including weekly support groups, a recovery app, free evaluations, and treatment scholarships. Learn more about Discovery's Free Weekly Support Groups, for those struggling and loved ones, at SupportInRecovery.com. Center For Discovery is a preferred provider and in-network with all major insurance companies.
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about advice-giving in session, looking at the complexities, pros and cons, and how and when to give advice to clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Why, when to give advice in session * How to process the other pieces before giving advice * Therapeutic techniques that help in problem-solving before giving advice * Gender differences in approaching therapy, including who is looking more for “solutions” * How to assess because each individual has a different capacity to ask for help and/or seek advice * Solution-based advice versus process-oriented advice * The difference between clinical and coaching interventions * Developmental stages of decision-making and how they can impact when and how to give advice * How to assess whether you’ve crossed a boundary with the advice you’re giving * Urgency and crisis-related advice * The importance of seeing from your client’s perspective * Looking at what your advice is based on * The downsides of refusing to give an opinion, not self-disclosing – interacting as human beings can be richer therapeutically * The complexities as well as the pros and cons of giving advice
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs. If you’re a therapist, there’s a good chance you already know Ben. He has built his career fighting for you, and for me, and for all of us to be able to do well even in a challenging professional landscape. Check out BenCaldwellLabs.com for his books, California exam prep, continuing education, and more. Thinking of taking your practice online? Visit bencaldwelllabs.com/online to get 20% off their on-demand CE course, Basics of Telehealth.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Other Relevant Episodes:
What Clients Want
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Heather Walker Janz, LMFT – Curt and Katie talk with Heather about being a therapist and being an activist as well as the challenges of being in the public eye during a national campaign. Heather’s call to action: step up and use your voice!
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Heather Walker Janz, LMFT Heather Janz, LMFT, has established a private practice in California’s central valley serving teens and young adults referred through the Juvenile Justice Center, hospitals, and county mental health crisis centers. Heather inspires her clients and fellow mental health professionals by modeling assertiveness and positive communication through activism and advocacy. She is the current president of her local chapter of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CSJV-CAMFT) and has also been involved in several movements including The Women’s March, Families Belong Together, and March For Our Lives. You can learn more about Heather at www.heatherjanz.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Being a therapist during a campaign * How Heather is navigating the complexities of being visible in the campaign where her husband is a democrat running to be the representative for Congressional District 22 * The challenges of being a therapist during a national campaign * How Heather has processed her visibility and the campaign with her clients * The unexpected benefits of Heather’s personal life being so public, within her clinical work * The challenges of having different political views than clients – how to process it with clients * The benefits of being on record related to specific more controversial issues * How she has transitioned from having no visibility (as directed in school) to being in most of her clients’ mailboxes * The idea that clients need us to take care of them by being so invisible * How Heather screens new clients in and out to make sure that clients are not sensationalized related to the election * The additional steps Heather will take to protect her clients’ confidentiality on social media * Heather’s lack of confidentiality and how she relies on her ability to remain genuine in all spaces * The surprises that have come during the campaign * How to diminish the impact of the external stuff (campaign or personal matters) and the strict boundaries that Heather holds to shift the conversation to the clinical material * The supports that Heather has put in place to manage her work, the campaign, her own volunteer work * The self-care practices that Heather has put into place, how she has learned to say “no” * Advice for others seeking to enter politics as a therapist * Why it is so important that we step up, even if we don’t know if we’re ready, we can’t wait * How our activism can give our clients hope * How therapists as mental health experts interacting with legislators and staffers can decrease mental health stigma
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists
Heather’s Website
Andrew Janz for Congress
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs. They offer a whole suite of tools to help all of us be more successful therapists throughout our careers, including continuing education, California license exam prep, and the updated and essential reference book, Basics of California Law for LMFTs, LPCCs, and LCSWs. Visit www.BenCaldwellLabs.com/Modern to get 20% off of Basics of California Law when you order by the end of 2018.
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the mistakes that therapists make in their business that can impact their clinical practice, their financial stability, and their reputation both with their colleagues and their clients.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The intersection between business and clinical practices * The different mistakes that therapists make like not returning phone calls, being clumsy with intake call and intake process, failing to talk about fees before meeting in person, insurance bait and switch, scheduling snafus in shared offices, lack of control in your space, running late, poor referrals, not getting consent from both parents, clients missing payments and racking up debt * How to improve business practices to improve clinical relationships * Using therapy skills to improve “sales” * Systems to help clients engage in treatment from the beginning * The importance of establishing fees and contracts/consents prior to the first session * Clear parameters can equal clinical safety * Timeliness can equate to trust * The handoff from intake or practice owner to the clinician who will work with the client * Showing confidence in your own work and any referrals you make * Making sure to talk through all of the consents and policies * Communication practices with clients * Taking notes, remembering what has happened in the session * Client experience, customer care * Re-engagement * Deliberate Practice and Scott Miller’s Feedback Informed Treatment * The importance of putting systems in place that support you and your clients
Our Generous Sponsor: Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs. If you’re a therapist, there’s a good chance you already know Ben. He has built his career fighting for you, and for me, and for all of us to be able to do well even in a challenging professional landscape. Check out BenCaldwellLabs.com for his books, California exam prep, continuing education, and more. Thinking of taking your practice online? Visit bencaldwelllabs.com/online to get 20% off their on-demand CE course, Basics of Telehealth.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
SimplePractice
Scott Miller’s Feedback Informed Treatment
Maureen Werrbach with The Group Practice Exchange
Dr. Ben Caldwell with Ben Caldwell Labs
Mixing Modern Therapist live networking events – email us for info: events@therapyreimagined.com
The conversations happening in Our Facebook Group
first.therapyreimaginedconference.com
Other Relevant Episodes:
Making Bank as a Therapist
Deliberate Practice 1: Finding Your Blind Spots
Deliberate Practice 2: Be a Better Therapist
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Kelly Higdon, LMFT of ZynnyMe – Curt and Katie talk with Kelly Higdon about taking ownership as a business owner, creating space and time for play and creativity, defining your own pace, and your own voice – all with the goal of becoming stronger clinicians and increasing mental health access.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Kelly Higdon, LMFT Kelly Higdon is a Licensed Marriage Family Therapist and the other half of ZynnyMe with Miranda Palmer. Together they created the Business School Bootcamp, a lifetime access business program just for therapists who want to start, grow or retool their practices. She operates from the belief that eradicating mental health stigma and improving access to mental wellness starts with each of us. The better we are at business, the better we can be at serving our communities. When Kelly isn't hanging out with bootcampers or coaching clients, you can find her spending time with husband and daughter or rolling on her skates with her roller derby family.
In this episode we talk about: * The reasons that Kelly joined together with Miranda Palmer, LMFT to create Zynnyme, Business School Bootcamp * How the way you live your life is the way you do business * How avoiding and “just trusting that everything will work out” can hurt your progress in private practice * How therapists recognizing patterns can help us be better business owners * The way that therapists have improved how they approach business over the last few years * How to choose who you spend time with – people who have a business mindset * The importance of accountability and being with people who challenge you * Looking at how the business decisions impact your clinical work and training * Deciding to grow or maintain your same level * Celebrating success rather than constantly looking to grow * Choices about eliminating, delegating, automating, prioritizing, and delaying * You get to define your success and your pace * Kelly’s parking lot method * The fears and doubts, grief that can come up when you don’t take action in your business * The plague of comparisonitis * Finding your own uniqueness, how to avoid being influenced by someone else and entering your own heart space * How business development is like childhood development * How to be more creative and improve your business * How to find your best coach to help you further your business development * The integrity of referring out * The changes in the profession over the last few years * How you can be in private practice and innovate for the whole profession * Breaking down barriers and increasing mental health access
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Business School Bootcamp
ZynnyMe
ZynnyMe Coaching and My Awesome Year
Blue Ocean Strategy by W. Chan Kim and Renee Mauborgne
Our Generous Sponsor:
Thanks again to our sponsor, Ben Caldwell Labs. They offer a whole suite of tools to help all of us be more successful therapists throughout our careers, including continuing education, California license exam prep, and the updated and essential reference book, Basics of California Law for LMFTs, LPCCs, and LCSWs. Visit www.BenCaldwellLabs.com/Modern to get 20% off of Basics of California Law when you order by the end of 2018.
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about reimagining therapy, starting a #therapymovement, and pulling together a community to put on a conference
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Curt’s love of Legos and the ensuing overuse of this metaphor to describe using building blocks to be creative * This conference we’re putting on and why we named it Therapy Reimagined * The building blocks that are the foundation of therapy, but how we can use them creatively * The individual differences that have been growing the diversity of the profession * Sacrificial Helping Syndrome (Katie’s concept about how clinicians can sacrifice their own well-being for the work) * How the system isn’t working – it relies on us burning out * Why advocacy is important for our profession * The irony and sadness about us going into the profession to be a different therapist and then becoming the burned-out therapist * What it means when we burn out: lack of resources, mental health stigma, poorer outcomes * Creating an action plan for how you will improve the profession * Why strong business practices are important for all of us * Having a big idea and carrying it through * The importance of diversity and our commitment to have diverse faculty and diverse ideas at Therapy Reimagined 2018 * How important it is to us to hear from you and develop this community around us for the #therapymovement * How to join the community and the #therapymovement * A secret message from Katie at the very end
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Katie’s article on Sacrificial Helping Syndrome
Katie’s writing about avoiding Sacrificial Helping Syndrome
Dr. Ben Caldwell with Ben Caldwell Labs
Mixing Modern Therapist live networking events – email us for info: events@therapyreimagined.com
The conversations happening in Our Facebook Group
first.therapyreimaginedconference.com
Other Relevant Episodes:
Our Therapy Reimagined speakers on the podcast -
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy - Benjamin E. Caldwell
What Therapists Get Wrong - Paul Gilmartin
Social Media and Video Marketing for Therapists - Ernesto Segismundo Jr.
Make Your Paperwork Meaningful - Maelisa Hall
Be the CEO of your SEO - Perry Rosenbloom
Becoming a Group Practice Owner - Maureen Werrbach
Building Hope for the Next Generation of Therapists - Robin Andersen
Crafting Your Authentic Message - Mercedes Samudio
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk with Tiffany McLain about the difficulty therapists have in charging enough to make a living, how ignoring money means you’re missing stuff in the clinical work, and ideas on how to shift your mindset to make bank.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Tiffany McLain, LMFT Tiffany McLain, MFT is a therapist & consultant whose mantra is, “Full fees are the new black.” Via her business, www.heytiffany.com, she helps therapists in private practice overcome their shame about marketing and making bank so they can help the clients they are truly passionate about serving. She’s been featured in Psychology Today Magazine, Psych Central, Huffington Post, KGO Radio, SF Weekly and Forbes.
In this episode we talk about: * The reasons that therapists have such a hard time charging for therapy * How therapists being upwardly mobile can impact their money issues * How many therapists are often marginalized and upwardly mobile, which can impact our tendency to sacrifice ourselves and put ourselves into the role of martyr * The zero-sum game that a lot of people think is true (but really is not) * Working through your money story and your identity around money * Shifting your mindset around money * Why we have a difficult time charging full fee * The culture of shame regarding talking about money * Money as a symbol of reality and of death * When clinicians are not addressing money stuff they are missing stuff in the clinical work * The danger of pretending that we don’t have needs, limitations, etc. and how that leads to unrealistic expectations for the clinician * How to give back and still make the living that you want * Why not everyone needs to go into private practice * Tiffany’s story of not fitting in and creating her own tribe * How she navigated having a strong brand in her coaching while doing psychoanalytic work in her therapy practice * How Tiffany works with therapy and coaching clients * How therapists get in their own way – getting their fees wrong, not leaning in
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Tiffany’s Program: Lean in Make Bank
Fun with Fees Calculator
Profit First by Mike Michalowicz
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about people who yell “That’s Unethical” whenever they disagree with what someone else is doing. It could be ethics, but it might actually be legal, clinically relevance, values, morals, what “should” be done or what has always been done – and how to navigate messy decisions.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The tendency of people to yell "That's Unethical!" when they disagree with what you're doing (even if it doesn't relate to an ethic) * The differences between laws, ethics, clinically relevance, personal morals and values, and “shoulds” or what we’ve always done * #citethestatute * Being thoughtful about how we make decisions as a therapist * Emotional versus wise mind arguments * The messiness of reality – things don’t always stack up related to laws, ethics, clinical relevance, etc. * The need to discuss these things, so we can make change when needed * How to sort through the muddiness of real world scenarios where laws, ethics, and clinical interventions don’t line up. * The need to sort through in a case by case basis * Developmental stages of navigating the complexity of these differentiations * Your own values, limitations * The importance of consultation * Facebook group consultation – pros and cons * Seeking consultation on ethical, legal, and clinical complexity
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Dr. Ben Caldwell with Ben Caldwell Labs
Other Relevant Episodes:
Dual Relationships
Dating as a Therapist
Social Media and Video Marketing for Therapists
Managing Your Online Reputation
How Much is Too Much? (on limit setting, talking politics with clients, etc.)
The Brand Called You
What Clients Want (on the therapeutic relationship)
Our Take on Texts
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Marc Sadoff, LCSW, about what therapists can do to support refugees seeking asylum in the United States. We talk about the qualifications therapists need to engage in the asylum evaluation process.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Marc Sadoff, LCSW Marc Sadoff, LCSW was licensed in 1985 and worked with the Program for Torture Victims Los Angeles from 1997 to 2001. Marc and his colleagues did psychological and medical evaluations to corroborate claims of torture for asylum seekers. In 2000, they presented a half-day workshop for Immigration Asylum Officers on the topic of credibility. They were acknowledged as contributors to a book edited by the Physicians for Human Rights called "A Health Professional’s Guide to Medical And Psychological Evaluations Of Torture" published in 2001. Marc has submitted over 100 psychological evaluations for immigration cases, and has been accepted as an ‘expert in traumatic stress’, 60 of the 60 times that he’s testified in court. Marc’s goal in providing training on asylum is to expand the pool of clinicians who can begin doing pro bono and low fee psychological evaluations for those fleeing injustice and terror. You can learn more about Marc here: www.realhope.com
In this episode we talk about: * Marc’s entry into treating torture and asylum victims * The difference between asylum evaluations and treatment * What the asylum process looks like from asylee perspective and the clinician perspective * The years long process that is asylum seeking, leading to communities requiring sponsorship while waiting for the process to be completed * The clinician’s experience in the asylum process * What is required to complete evaluations for asylum, looking at the practical steps to completing the report * Qualifications for therapists completing asylum evaluations * The current state of immigration and how it has impacted Marc’s practice, his personal takes on it * The plight of unaccompanied minors who cross the border * How therapists can get involved, as a citizen, as a clinician, as an asylum evaluator * How therapists and social workers need to be cautious about what they present related to interviews outside of asylum evaluations
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Marc’s 7 hour course - Webinar on Asylum Evaluations: RealHope.com/webinar-training/
Marc’s information:
www.RealHope.com/webinar-training/ For info regarding the September training.
Email: Marc@RealHope.com
Twitter: @MarcSadoff
IF YOU’D LIKE THE EXTENSIVE RESOURCES THAT MARC PROVIDED US, PLEASE SEND US A QUICK EMAIL AND WE CAN FORWARD THE MULTI-PAGE DOCUMENT TO YOU: podcast@therapyreimagined.com
Professional Organization Statements:
APA
NASW
CAMFT
AAMFT
America Academy of Pediatrics
Child’s World America Petition
Diane Feinstein’s Bill: Keep Families Together Act
Action Alert from Southern Poverty Law Center
RAICES
Their request as reported by APA:
You may have heard of the organization RAICES in the news. The Refugee and Immigrant Center for Education and Legal Services. This is a request from them:
“We are being given access to the children at Casa Padre in Brownsville, Texas, on July 12-13 and need massive help. Approximately 1,000 children are being held there and we have the right to interview every single one of them under Flores, but we will only have two days and 9-12 hours per day to do so. Every interview takes approximately one hour, which means that we will need approximately sixty attorneys, plus interpreters. We need some interpreters to speak indigenous Central American languages as well as Spanish and other languages around the world (last week our team was looking for a Punjabi speaker while interviewing a child at one of the Border Patrol stations). We also are seeking volunteer pediatric medical and therapeutic professionals who can volunteer to provide support onsite both days.
Almost no private citizens are allowed to meet with these children, but a limited number of attorneys can under Flores and we need more volunteer attorneys on our team in light of the current crisis. If you go to Brownsville (or one of the the other sites where children are being held), you can document who and where these children are, who their parents are, and as much as the children can recall of where and when they were separated from their parents so that we can provide that information to the court and seek their prompt reunification with their families.
There is no travel funding available and all work done is on a volunteer basis. If you cannot help with the visit at Casa Padre on July 12-13, we also will probably need volunteers for visits to the ORR/Southwest Key facilities once those dates are set.
History, as well as present conditions around the world tell us how critical this process and information are in circumstances like we are witnessing here. The separation of these children from their families highlights a dark point in our unfolding history as a nation. Today, I am so grateful for the rule of law and attorneys, other professionals, and lay volunteers who are working so hard to shine a light on these children's plight in order to provide a path forward for them and their families, as well as for society overall.
If you are willing and able to volunteer, please contact me at wbinford@willamette.edu and I will help you with paperwork to get your background check started and the introductions you need to possibly be added to the Flores team."
American Psychological Association
Immigration Resources:
https://www.psychologicalevaluationsforimmigrationcourt.net/blog/
IF YOU’D LIKE THE EXTENSIVE RESOURCES THAT MARC PROVIDED US (INCLUDING THE ONE ABOVE), PLEASE SEND US A QUICK EMAIL AND WE CAN FORWARD THE MULTI-PAGE DOCUMENT TO YOU: podcast@therapyreimagined.com
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Alison Fussell, LMFT, Co-Founder of Advekit, about making her dream of stronger, more accurate referrals a reality through the responsive algorithm on her online platform. Looking at the platform, the vision, and the ups and downs of being a startup.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Alison Fussell, LMFT Alison Fussell is a LMFT and Co-Founder of Advekit - the modern marketing platform for therapists in Southern California. Alison was born and raised in Los Angeles and attended UCLA (Bachelors) and Pepperdine University (Masters). She practiced in a clinical setting for 6 years before starting her company, Advekit. The impetus for Advekit was to bridge the gap between therapists seeking new clients, and clients seeking the right suited therapists per their needs. Alison and her co-founder, Arielle, realized that there was a strong need for an effective platform for both groups to connect, as this concept was lacking in the space. In addition to their matching platform, the Advekit team plans to enhance the therapist and client experience from end to end, with the goal of implementing new tools on the platform and scaling into major cities within the US.
In this episode we talk about: * Alison’s story * Identifying the gap in saturated markets, to help people narrow down and find the right therapist * Shifting from your clinical practice to a “side” business * The struggles of starting a business * Increasing accuracy of referrals * Creating an algorithm to improve matches within Advekit * Accurately portraying yourself to get better referrals, being specific * How you can shoot yourself in the foot when you check off too many boxes on online profiles * Leveraging your clinical skills in other areas in business * Creating a business partnership with complimentary skillsets * Moving from vision to reality * Finding the right steps to move forward * What you need to know about business to move a big idea forward * Reading books and learning on your own * Taking risks * Finding opportunities beyond clinical work
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Advekit
Special Advekit promo code for our listeners: “summer2018” – This will give you 10% off the annual package (normally $270, but for you it will be $243). Enter this code in as you fill out your profile on Advekit.
Relevant MTSG Podcast Episodes:
Referrals Done Right
The Brand Called You
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about ineffective and shady marketing practices that are completely ineffective and bad for your brand.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Laws and best practices related to email marketing * The benefit of opt-in and permission marketing * List building while providing positive content to the people who have subscribed or opted in * Frequency and quality of emails * Technological advances that help you send information only to the people who want it * Segmented lists: client facing, referral sources, topics, events, etc. * The what’s and how’s of the unsubscribe button * Unsolicited texts during the election * The danger of holding people hostage in any form (in person networking, texting, phone, email) * Visibility is not the only goal of marketing * Facebook interactions that are not so cool * Treating people as a number on a mailing list, a like for a FB page, etc. * Excessively marketing – fear based or obsession-based conversations * The huge problem of not being able to unsubscribe * The dangers of burning out your referral sources with unsolicited emails * Creating engaging content * Marketing strategy for different platforms
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Permission Marketing by Seth Godin
Can-Spam Rule
GDPR
Other Relevant Episodes:
The Brand Called You
The Dividing Line Between Coaching and Therapy
Our event this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Our new consultation services:
The Fifty-Minute Hour
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
An interview with Robyn Goldberg, RDN, CEDRD, on what all therapists should know about nutrition, disordered eating, and eating disorders, as well as their own biases and relationship with food
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Robyn Goldberg, RDN, CEDRD Robyn L. Goldberg, RDN, CEDRD, began her career at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles as the in-patient dietitian in the Department of Cardiology. Over the last 21 years she has developed her own private practice in Beverly Hills, CA, where she specializes in medical conditions, disordered eating, eating disorders, Health at Every Size, intuitive eating and pre-pregnancy nutrition. Robyn promotes opportunity to excel in developing a new perspective with food in association with several medical groups. She serves as a Nutrition Consultant for the Celiac Disease Foundation. For the last eight years Robyn was the Nutritional Therapist for the Susan Krevoy Eating Disorders Program at Wright Institute Los Angeles was a consultant for Panda Restaurant Group and teaches the nutrition classes for the Motion Picture Wellness Program. Currently Robyn is the Director of Nutrition Service for The Control Center, an addiction IOP, where she sees all the eating disorder patients. She is a contributing author and is a nationally known registered dietitian nutritionist. She has been quoted in The New York Times, The Huffington Post, The Fix, Shape Magazine, Fitness, Oxygen, Pilates Style, Diabetes Forecast, BH Weekly and Life & Style. She has been on national television as the eating disorder expert on The Insider. Robyn has a body image and eating disorder group at several addiction centers in Los Angeles.
Learn more about Robyn at www.askaboutfood.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Diet Culture * HAES: Health at Every Size * Food freedom * Collaboration between therapists and dietitians * Treating eating disorders and disordered eating * What to look for in the intake process * Looking at your own belief system and bias around “fat” and “thin” * Why you can't make assumptions about your clients based on what they look like * When to worry about eating patterns of your clients * Orthorexia, Anorexia, Bulimia, Restricting, Binging * Moving away from the idea that there is a “right weight” * What therapists often miss related to eating * How to find experts who work with Eating Disorders (what the qualifications are, what the dangers are when you work outside of your scope) * Who needs to be on the team to treating EDs. * Medical considerations and labs to request * How little most people know about how to screen for eating disorders * The differences between Registered Dietitian Nutritionist, Licensed Dietitians, Nutritionists, Health Coaches
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Robyn’s Website: www.askaboutfood.com
Instagram: RobynGoldbergRDN
Academy of Eating Disorders: www.aedweb.org
International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals: IAEDP
Certifications for Eating Disorder Specialties (CEDRD, CEDS, etc.)
Medical Care Standards Guide - Eating Disorders: Critical Points for Early Recognition and Medical Risk Management in the Care of Individuals with Eating Disorders
Certification in Intuitive Eating
Relevant MTSG Podcast Episodes:
Are You Sure You’re a Specialist
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Curt and Katie talk about the therapeutic alliance - challenges of defining it, what clients think about it, and how to incorporate best practices.
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The definition of therapeutic alliance and the difficult we have in practically defining it * What actually matters to clients, that makes up the therapeutic relationship * Validating the client’s experience * Looking at the client as a whole person * Therapist honesty * Showing good boundaries * Normalizing the client’s experience * Making eye contact with our clients * Body language, who we present ourselves * Clients feeling heard and respected * The challenge of getting accurate feedback from clients * How to incorporate best practices
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Bedi and Duff Study on Therapeutic Relationship: Client as Expert
Scott Miller
Our new consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour
Other Episodes Mentioned:
The Brand Called You
Our events this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Millen Umoh, LMFT Millen Umoh is a New York State licensed psychotherapist currently practicing in Brooklyn, NY. She is a graduate of Pepperdine University with a Master's degree in Clinical Psychology. Millen specializes in working with individuals dealing with relationship break-ups, separation, divorce, unhealthy interpersonal relationship patterns, and other major life transitions. She also has extensive experience treating anxiety and mood disorders. Learn more about Millen on her website: www.millenumoh.com
In this episode we talk about: * Millen’s story, her specialty (and her former blog Psych and The Single Girl) * Unique challenges for therapists on the dating scene * Setting boundaries, having reciprocal conversations, receiving in addition to giving * When to talk about your profession while online dating * What happened when Millen told people she was unemployed * App dating – setting up your bio, what to disclose, how to present yourself * Red flags, when to left swipe * What to do if coming across clients on the app * How to address with clients if they become aware of your dating status * Social Media and informed consent to clarify boundaries * How to approach seeking long-term relationships, when in your career you might want to date * Options for getting out on the dating scene (online dating, app dating, getting out for live events, meeting organically) * Self-disclosure about dating – when it might be appropriate or how to show understanding and knowledge * The perks of dating when you’re a therapist
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Tinder
Bumble
Match.com
Relevant MTSG Podcast Episodes:
Dual Relationships – Pros and Cons
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How social media has made the world smaller * Personal branding, marketing, and the move away from the blank slate leading to dual relationships * Digital natives having extensive social media and digital presence before determining they want to be a therapist * Whether to express your opinions on non-therapy stuff * Distinguishing personal, private, and professional online, in-person, etc. * Showing respect, maintaining confidentiality, and boundaries * Encouraging discussions on how to navigate dual relationships correctly (rather than just saying “don’t do it” related to technology) * Translating milieu settings and small towns as templates for how to behave on social media * Curating personal disclosures online * Sharing your personal views does not mean you can discriminate * Whether therapists should do yelp reviews or share their opinions on current events * Healthy dual relationships * Whether or not to google clients or to view their social media
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Ofer Zur’s Article on Googling Clients
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Our Take on Texts
Small Town Sex Therapist
Our events this year:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Laura Reagan, LCSW-C Laura Reagan, LCSW-C is a clinical social worker specializing in complex trauma in her private practice outside of Baltimore, Maryland. She is also the host of Therapy Chat podcast. Laura offers individual and group consultation with clinicians who work with trauma focusing on addressing the impact of vicarious trauma, as well as creating a trauma-informed practice. Connect with Laura at www.laurareaganlcswc.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Laura’s story * The definition of vicarious trauma * Preparation to manage crisis intervention, trauma response work, and being on-call * Self-care, debriefing, supportive supervision * The cumulative effects of hearing about clients’ traumatic experiences * Over-work and negative self-concept due to the need to keep people safe * Decreasing feelings of competence and safety * Distinction between vicarious trauma, burnout, and countertransference * The fight or flight response related to secondary traumatic stress * Offsetting the negative impacts of vicarious trauma * Building community and connection * The limits of incident debriefing and the need for therapists to process their own stuff that is brought up by vicarious trauma * The importance of personal therapy, consultation * Critical Incident Debriefing * Taking care of yourself within a trauma-informed practice * The danger of ignoring vicarious trauma (PTSD symptoms) * Managing your emotions without shutting down or becoming disregulated
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Therapy Chat Podcast
Simple Self-Care for Therapists by Ashley Davis Bush
Trauma Stewardship by Laura van Dernoot Lipsky
Laura Reagan’s Consultation
Laura Reagan’s On-Line Trauma Therapist Community
Laura’ Reagan’s In-Person Trauma Community
Relevant MTSG Podcast Episodes:
Therapist Safety
The Danger of Poor Self-Care
Our Next Event:
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How therapists can create toxic work environments for themselves and their teams * How therapists can make poor managers (and some suggestions on how to improve) * How to change your environment and when to leave it * How to assess if it is you, your work culture, or both * What makes an environment toxic: unclear or unreasonable expectations, lack of communication, illegal activities, predatory practices toward prelicensed individuals, gas lighting, too much venting * How to advocate (when you can) * What to do when you feel like you can’t leave * Coping strategies when you can’t leave right away (setting boundaries, avoiding the people who are always complaining, asking for what you need)
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Situational Leadership Model
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Getting the Supervision You Want
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Uriah Guilford, MFT Uriah Guilford is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, the owner of Guilford Family Counseling and the mastermind behind The Productive Therapist, a business that provides virtual assistants to therapy practice owners. He is a technology enthusiast, productivity nerd and a pretty rad drummer. Uriah is always searching for creative ways to provide counseling to youth and families as well as help therapists to get more done, while working less.
You can learn more about Uriah’s businesses here: www.productivetherapist.com and www.guilfordfamilycounseling.com
In this episode we talk about: * Improving efficiency through automation, delegation, and elimination * Differences between an in-person versus a virtual assistant * Managing Virtual Assistants (VAs) using technology * What therapists should delegate first * What to look for in a VA (qualities of successful VAs) * What skills to require and what you can train on * How to make the transition into delegating to a VA * The productivity dip that can happen when you hire someone * The issues and the best practices in adding a team member * Becoming efficient with templates and processes * Getting really good at delegating * What we should be doing – working on the business, CEO strategic thinking, client care
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Uriah’s new Virtual Assistant company: The Productive Therapist – mention the podcast to get 2 hours of free VA services
Zoom Video Conferencing
SimplePractice
todoist
Quip.com
Trello
Asana
Google Docs
Useloom.com
Alexa/Amazon Echo
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Calling people back * How much time to spend on making referrals * Horrible business and legal considerations like kickbacks, cartels, and antitrust issues * What we’re legally and ethically responsible for related to making referrals * Call logs and why they are useful * Keeping the best interest of the client in mind * What to call referrals from on-line directories and Facebook groups
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Other Episodes Mentioned:
In-Person Networking
The Brand Called You
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
WE HEARD YOU AND WE’RE MOVING TO ONE EPISODE A WEEK!
ALSO… LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE NOW TO HEAR OUR SPECIAL COMMUNITY MEMBER CODE TO GET EXTENDED EARLY BIRD PRICING THROUGH FRIDAY 4/27/18 ON OUR LAW AND ETHICS WORKSHOP MAY 18TH, 2018!!
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The definition of Personal Branding and what it means for therapists * How to use your authentic voice * How to identify how best to present yourself * How you come across to others, especially to clients * Answering the question, what do I offer? * The danger of mimicking others * Professional bios versus authentic connection * Your professional persona * Why it is important to really represent who you are as a therapist * Ethical reasons to embrace your style (and communicate it well) * How to take off the blank screen or blank slate, looking at the self-exploration that’s needed * How our experiences and our values can impact treatment * Relevant ethics codes related to choosing who you work with, embracing your skill set, and rejecting clients based on demographics * What to put on your website * How fear can get in the way of effectively reaching your clients * How personal branding is the antidote to being “too niched.”
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Dr. Ben Caldwell’s Book Saving Psychotherapy
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Bad Marketing Decisions
What is a Modern Therapist
Are You Sure You’re a Specialist?
How Much is Too Much?
Building the Psyko Therapist Brand
The Fight to Save Psychotherapy
Therapists in Therapy
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Robin Andersen, LMFT, the Founder of Prelicensed Robin Andersen is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT 100070), the Founder of Prelicensed, the Business Development Manager for TrackYourHours and TrackYourCEUs, and the President of the San Diego North County Chapter of CAMFT. She is passionate about supporting prelicensed MFTs and enjoys focusing on numerous aspects of the MFT field, including entrepreneurship, leadership, and advocacy. Robin strives to create resources that serve the MFT community and move the profession forward. You can learn more about her current and upcoming projects (including the Psychotherapy Forums) by visiting her website.
In this episode we talk about: * Why she started prelicensed.com and explaining her other current projects, trackyourhours and trackyourceus * Robin’s assessment of the gaps in the field for students, trainees, and associates * The #postthepay campaign and how prelicensed individuals can navigate job searching * The different explanations Robin has heard about why people don’t pay interns and associates * The importance of getting mentorship * Getting and giving support and mentorship * How to advocate as a prelicensed individual * How prelicensed individuals can get in their own way * Robin’s best tips for successfully moving forward in the career
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Prelicensed
- Job Search
- Blog Articles, including:
-
- "Does Non-Bilingual Mean Non-Employable?"
- "An Attendee's Guide to BBS Board Meetings"
TrackYourCEUs
TrackYourHours
Dr. Ben Caldwell
CAMFT (California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists)
AAMFT (American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists)
BBS (Board of Behavioral Sciences)
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How to find a therapist (and all of the challenges in finding the right therapist) * The potential for a dual relationship and making sure that you can navigate it * The stigma related to shopping for a new therapist * Finding someone who is further along in the career and very skilled to be your therapist * Whether or not therapy should be a requirement in grad school * Whether you can be a good therapist if you’ve never been a therapy client * The importance of using therapy to address current mental health concerns as well as vicarious trauma, compassion fatigue, burnout, and the stresses of being a private practitioner
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Articles:
Counselling psychologists' perceptions of the impact of mandatory personal therapy on professional development--an exploratory study
Psychotherapy trainees’ experiences of their own mandatory personal therapy raise “serious ethical considerations”
Therapy for Therapists
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Bad Marketing Decisions
Finding Your Blind Spots
Be a Better Therapist
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Katrina Soelter, CFP Katrina Strelow Soelter is a Financial Advisor with the Zeutzius, Hutchinson, Sosa Wealth Management Group of Wells Fargo Advisors. She received her undergraduate degree at UC Berkeley in Philosophy and German. After graduation, she taught elementary school in the Bay Area, during which time she received her MA from Loyola Marymount University. Motivated by her interest in personal finance and her passion for helping individuals define and achieve the life they want, she changed careers and began working with The Zeutzius, Hutchinson, Sosa Wealth Management Group at Wells Fargo Advisors in 2013. She attended UCLA extension for her CFP® coursework and is a proud CFP® practitioner.
She enjoys exploring the different LA neighborhoods, reading a good book, finding local coffee shops, and giving back to her community. She volunteers as a mentor with the Fulfillment Fund and participates with the Financial Planning Association of Los Angeles, organizations that are close to her heart. She is a member of the Financial Planning Association of Los Angeles, the Cal Alumni Association, and an activator with SheEO.
In this episode we talk about: * Why people should invest their money * How to prioritize and balance paying down debt (like student loans) with investing early for retirement and purchasing a home * Thinking about your savings in buckets (long-term retirement, emergency fund, fun/intermediate planning) * Retirement account options, including the advantages of different retirement plans (SEP, Simple) * Self-directed investing (like Vanguard, Robo-advisors) and target date funds versus actively managed investing with a professional advisor * The differences between stocks and bonds and the importance of understanding the allocation of each within your investments * Fees to be aware of when investing * How and when to consult a professional financial advisor/certified financial planner
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Getting a hold of Katrina:
Katrina.Soelter@wfadvisors.com
www.zhswealthmanagementgroup.com
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * A disciplinary action related to a therapist accidentally texting her client with something the client found offensive * An argument made related to whether or not therapists should ever text with their clients * Informed consent related to texting (including when your signed consent doesn’t protect you) * Why it is important to think closely about anything you’re putting out there in texts, social media, or any written communication * How to manage boundaries related to potentially being available 24/7 when your clients text * How to discuss with your client any missteps with boundaries * Telehealth considerations * Password protecting your phone * Decreasing your liability by making sure you’re HIPAA compliant * Email mistakes that aren’t really protected by your email disclaimer * All the nuances that can be misunderstood while texting – emojis, punctuation, abbreviations * How to handle private messaging on social media * How to engage in our Facebook Group
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
California Board of Behavioral Sciences
Disciplinary Actions by the CA BBS
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
Articles:
The Legalities and Ethics of Texting Your Psychotherapy Clients
Psychotherapy by emoji: Mental health community wrestles with texting
Text therapy: once my therapist sent me an emoji, I knew it was game over
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Making Your Paperwork Meaningful
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Group
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Embracing your own personal brand works when you own what you do
Using video can be an effective way of promoting mental wellness
Video has built therapeutic relationship prior to patients coming in for the first session
Pulling in a lot of different identities works best when bringing it together with your passion
Everyone has their own relationship with failure
Livesteam failures and handling online trolls
Therapists and other mental health professionals are the most critical of the crafted brand
Advertise where people are: social media
Humor eases anxieties around mental health issues
Therapists underestimate the power of being themselves
Being appropriately authentic
Find your social support system to better yourself
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Jax Anderson’s website
The Psyko therapist youtube channel
The Psyko therapist Instagram
A Beautiful Journey Clinic
John Mulaney
Previous Episodes Mentioned:
Bad Marketing Decisions
Social Media and Video Marketing
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the Chief Financial Officer for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Episode 44: Interview Strategies for Therapists:
Curt and Katie talk about Interviewing for Mental Health Jobs
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. In this episode, we discuss:
-Filling out applications correctly
-Phone screening process
-Different types of interview structures
-How to handle questions about theory or your practice style
-What employers are looking for
-Professionalism during the interview process
-Deal breakers for employers
-Extroverted vs introverted answers
Previous Episodes Mentioned:
Getting a J-O-B
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the Chief Financial Officer for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
SEO is making sure that search engines understand what your business is about
Sign up for Google My Business
Make sure that your website has appropriate title tags and descriptions
SEO research doesn’t necessarily apply to small businesses
Use synonyms for aspects of your business
Backlinks to other related websites improves your SEO
Guest blogs on others websites should link back to your website
Steady increases are more natural to search engines rather than flooding all at once
Write specific service pages for each type of different services
Links should be spread around to the different service pages
Page ranks are boosted by links that determine the importance in search engine rankings
Have a strategy for blogging & social media that fits with what you are able to provide
Brightervision.com/katiecurt for one month of free website
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Perry Rosenbloom at Brighter Vision
Google My Business
Free month of Brighter Vision!
Previous Episodes Mentioned:
Creating Relevant Ads
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the Chief Financial Officer for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. In this episode, we discuss:
Summer is a good time for job training due to a lesser client load
Agencies provide exposure to more clients
Check for jobs online and through in-person networking
Early private practice presence allows for someone else to cover early overhead expenses
Clean up your online presence
Resumes and cover letters need to look good, but might not be read in depth
Tailor your skills responsibilities from previous jobs to the job you are applying for
Thematic experience is stronger…if it fits your plan
Resumes and CVs can be multiple pages
Make sure that your references are going to be good references for your
Not all experience needs to be clinical
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the Chief Financial Officer for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Liz Dube, MA, MS, Certified Sex Therapist Liz Dube – Is a Sex and Relationship Therapist, Speaker, and Blogger who is passionate about helping others increase intimacy and sexual satisfaction in their relationships. She loves speaking on any topic related to sex and intimacy and she has a private practice in Long Beach & Huntington Beach, CA where she helps men, women, and couples get empowered about sex. Please visit her website where she blogs regularly about sex and intimacy: www.talksexwithliz.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Liz’ story and why she became a sex therapist * What therapists get wrong when talking about sex with their therapy clients * Myths about sex that even some therapists believe * Why people come to sex therapy * When therapists should be talking with their clients about their sex lives * Assessing sexual functioning * Language to use when talking about sex and how to desensitize yourself to common language * When to seek consultation and when to refer out * How therapists can experience shame and judgment related to impostor syndrome (e.g., the divorced marriage therapist) * Common misconceptions about sex therapists
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Liz’s website
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Our fan mail! * Conversations happening in the Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide Facebook Group * How to find the best supervisor you can * Questions to ask in an interview, to determine their supervision style, the personality fit, and their capabilities * Common mistakes supervisors can make in both group and individual supervision * The different aspects of supervision: Clinical, Administrative/Logistical, and Professional Development * Goal-setting for both individual and group supervision * Choosing a supervisor as well as making the best of supervision * Speaking about the process in the supervision room * The challenges related to the power differential * Evaluation and space for feedback * Getting live supervision * Preparing for supervision * Seeking outside supervision when you’re not getting what you need from your assigned supervisor * What to settle for and what to advocate for
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
California Board of Behavioral Sciences
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Giving and Getting Good Supervision
Finding Your Blind Spots (Deliberate Practice Part 1)
Be a Better Therapist (Deliberate Practice Part 2)
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Active vs Passive Learning
Continuing Education structure
Role plays as a learning tool
Working with clients outside of your comfort zone
Positive client outcomes
How practicing specific steps is necessary to improve
Going beyond the minimum continuing education requirements is necessary to become above average
Consultants can be found all over the world through technology
Cost factors in approaching your learning curve
Facebook groups aren’t the safest place to get the best feedback
Improving through specific areas comes with an ability to specialize and higher session fees
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Deliberate Practice:
Tony Rousmaniere
Previous Episodes Mentioned:
Saving Psychotherapy with Dr. Ben Caldwell
Finding Your Blind Spot: Deliberate Practice Part 1
Are You Sure You’re A Specialist?
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the Chief Financial Officer for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Information about a recent shooting incident at the Yountville Veteran’s Home * Risks that therapists can face * Making sure that you take care of your own safety first and foremost! * Screening for risk factors from the initial call throughout treatment * Best practices for safety in private practice, agencies, and community-based work * Field safety for home visits (including safety in numbers) * Advocating at your agency, in your community * Tarasoff and the interaction between Mental Health and Law Enforcement * Setting up your room so everyone feels safe * Commonsense practices to keep you safe * Grounding yourself for the work once you’ve made sure you’re safe * The impact of direct and secondary trauma * Take care of yourself
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
CNN Article: Three Women, Suspect Dead After Hostage Standoff in Yountville, California
Go Fund Me: Jenn Gonzales Shushereba Memorial
Community Members talking about this topic:
Nabil El-Ghoroury, PhD, CAE, Executive Director of California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists
Lauren Adams - @lcswhatever and her tweet about safety
Additional Articles on the Topic:
Gun Violence: Prediction, Prevention, and Policy by the American Psychological Association
APA Resources for Coping with Mass Shootings, Understanding Gun Violence
APA: Stay Safe in Practice
National Association of Social Workers Social Justice Brief: Gun Violence in the American Culture
American Counseling Association: Coping in the Aftermath of a Shooting
Mass Shootings and Mental Illness
Violence Against Mental Health Professionals: When the Treater Becomes the Victim
Homicides of Mental Health Workers by Patients: Review of Cases and Safety Recommendations
Active Shooter Resources
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Duane Osterlind, LMFT, CSAT Duane Osterlind is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified Sex Addiction Therapist. He is the founder and Clinical Director of Novus Mindful Life Institute Family Counseling and Recovery Center in Long Beach, California and the creator and host of The Addicted Mind Podcast. Duane’s clinical focus is on treating individuals and couples struggling with process addictions using mindfulness and a task-centered approach. His mission, with all clients and their families, is to help people overcome life's challenges and find joy, happiness, and contentment.
In addition to developing original, ground-breaking individual, couples, and family treatment programs, sharing his passion through public presentations, and conducting staff training workshops at educational and treatment centers, Duane enjoys his "hobby" of online marketing. In helping therapists connect with clients using online marketing he creates more possibilities for having a positive impact in the world. You can find Duane online at novusmindfullife.com, theaddictedmind.com, and adwordsfortherapists.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Duane’s story and how he got interested in Google Adwords * The benefits and risks of using Google Adwords to market your practice * How to show up in relevant Google searches * How to weed out people who aren’t really looking for you * How to get the best return on investment on your ad * Targeting by keywords, determining match type for your searches * How to write your ad * A/B Testing * Analytics and how to improve your return over time * Typical spends and ROI
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Google Adwords
Google Analytics
Duane’s Adwords for Therapists
Directories that Duane mentioned:
Psychology Today
Good Therapy
Theravive
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Finding someone better than you challenge you to improve * False Data that often supports our sense of how we good we are * How to know how well you’re doing with clients * Outcome measures, symptom relief, and clients feeling better * Why cases get stuck and why we should be focusing on these cases * Recording sessions and reviewing later to learn about your process and identify your blind spots * How important it is to continue your active learning * How the whole person therapist can bring their growth and training in the room * How to navigate when someone want you to be an expert – looking at your efficacy, cultural factors, and structuring your increased knowledge and growth * Listening closely to your clients * Getting on-going supervision, so someone can continue to push us to grow, identify what you’re missing * Asking to be challenged at your level of development * Identifying who can best supervise you and consult
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Deliberate Practice studies:
Anders Ericcson
Scott Miller
Previous episodes referenced:
Are You Sure You’re a Specialist?
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Maelisa Hall, Psy.D. Maelisa Hall, Psy.D. specializes in teaching therapists how to connect with their paperwork so it's more simple and more meaningful. The result? Rock solid documentation every therapist can be proud of! Check out her free online Private Practice Paperwork Crash Course, and get tips on improving your documentation today.
In this episode we talk about: * Maelisa’s story and why she’s so good at paperwork * How to make documentation meaningful to your practice * What your paperwork says about you * What kind of language to use in your progress notes * Improving your own quality assurance * Progress Note templates * Legal and ethical responsibilities for documentation * Consent for treatment considerations * Different policies you should probably consider * Medical necessity and the clinical loop * Treatment plan review * Thoughtful, deliberate treatment * How you’re probably overestimating your memory
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
QA Prep
My Biz Bestie Podcast
Maelisa’s Free Crash Course
Maelisa’s Paperwork Packet
Maelisa’s Meaningful Documentation Academy
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Similar, non-descript, cliché therapist marketing * Duplicating what other therapists do * Inauthentic personal branding * Ineffective marketing copy * Not having a call to action * Unclear or incomplete contact information * Not having a website or online presence at all * Headshots * Video missteps * Mistakes when creating printed marketing materials * How to stand out
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Psychology Today
Tiffany McClain – Hey Tiffany
Jax Anderson – The Psykotherapist
Fylmit.com
Previous episodes referenced:
In-Person Networking
Social Media and Video Marketing
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Howard Spector Howard Spector is the CEO and Co-Founder of SimplePractice. With over 20 years of experience in the industry, Howard has been involved with successful technology companies and has developed and established his first product, TrackYourHours. He has his MA in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Depth Psychology from the Pacifica Graduate Institute.
In this episode we talk about: * Howard’s Story – how he went from a previous career to being a therapist to being a tech entrepreneur with TrackYourHours and SimplePractice * Instinctual business decisions, trusting himself, pursuing your own why * The perils of not trusting yourself or your gut * Making decisions from the inside out (not letting society tell you what to do) * Investing in yourself as a small business owner * Ways to evolve your business, generating different streams of income * Business practices needed to be successful in business * Automation and delegation * What should I be doing and what shouldn’t I be doing as a business owner * The irony of therapists charging for time, but not valuing their time * How scary it is to be a business owner and invest in something new * Howard’s decision to not provide phone support for SimplePractice, for now * Why it’s important to be honest about what you can provide in business * What’s coming soon for SimplePractice
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
SimplePractice
Carl Jung
Pacifica Graduate Institute
TrackYourHours
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Choosing your location * Parking – free and plentiful, street parking, paid parking with and without validation * Personal requirements of the therapist * Client and marketing considerations * Building your referral network * Finding property management that understands the needs of therapists * Communicating effectively with officemates, neighbors, property managers * Awareness of the atmosphere and community * Designing your space * How to prioritize amenities * Waiting rooms * Function and design (and how to balance the two) * How to have your office reflect you * Leasing, subleasing, sharing offices, and contracts * Systems needed to share your office
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Benjamin E. Caldwell, Psy.D. Dr. Benjamin Caldwell is the author of five books, including Basics of California Law for LMFTs, LPCCs, and LCSWs, which is now on its fourth edition, and Saving Psychotherapy, which has been the focus of several invited conference presentations. He serves as adjunct faculty for California State University Northridge and The Wright Institute in Berkeley, CA. In his role as Chair of the Legislative and Advocacy Committee for the California Division of AAMFT, he has been directly involved in California's first-in-the-nation ban on reparative therapy for minors, and he drove the change in title from "intern" to "associate" for prelicensed MFTs and PCCs. For his advocacy work, he was awarded the AAMFT Division Contribution Award in 2013. He is a California licensed marriage and family therapist (#42723) and maintains a private practice in Los Angeles, specializing in working with couples. In this episode we talk about: * Why psychotherapy needs to be saved, looking at the huge financial barriers to entering the profession and the diminishing amount of money spent on treatment. * The advocacy needed to address training requirements, outdated laws and ethical codes, etc. * The importance of being clear in communicating what we do, how we’re different from each other, and why we do what we do * Why people don’t like or trust therapists * How Evidence Based Practices are impacting the field * Why we’ve not become more effective as a profession * The need to improve therapists, not treatment protocols * The “way of being” of a therapist is more important than the clinical interventions used * Deliberate Practice * How to improve workplaces to take better care of therapists * How to advocate at each stage of your career
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Curt’s almost weekly mention of Scott Miller and his work (and Ben chimes in a lot this time)
The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference
Saving Psychotherapy by Benjamin E. Caldwell
Basics of California Law for LMFTs, LPCCs, and LCSWs by Benjamin E. Caldwell
Ben Caldwell Labs
Psychotherapy Notes
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * What does it mean to be a “specialist” or an “expert”? * The difference between competence and special skills or expertise * Contrasting between clinical focus (or niche or target market) and specialization * How to become a specialist when you start out as a generalist * The ethical imperative to accurately portray your clinical training * Language you can use in marketing when you’re working toward specialization * Certifications – the benefits as well as the challenge to identify legitimate certificate programs * Not allowing the feeling of being “not good enough” to drive you to get a million certificates
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Richard Leslie’s Article Advertising Reminders
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jennifer Blough, LPC Jennifer Blough is a licensed professional counselor, certified compassion fatigue therapist, certified pet loss grief recovery specialist, and the owner of Deepwater Counseling in southeast Michigan. In addition to counseling individuals and couples, she presents compassion fatigue workshops to animal welfare and veterinary organizations. She is the author of the book To Save a Starfish: A Compassion Fatigue Workbook for the Animal Welfare Warrior, and the host of The Compassion Fatigue Podcast.
In this episode we talk about: * The symptoms of compassion fatigue and how to recognize it * Jen’s story and how she became a therapist for animal welfare professionals * The buffers for “the normal cost of caring” * Self-care and support * Compassion satisfaction (getting joy from your work) * Focusing her practice on animal welfare professionals and pet loss, without closing herself off to others who she can help * The unique challenges of animal welfare professionals and how to support these people with the constant grief and loss associated with caring for animals * Considerations for therapists working with animal welfare professionals * The vegan lifestyle and how it intersects with the clinical work * Suggestions for self-care and coping with compassion fatigue * Animal rights activism * How to empower yourself rather than traumatize yourself in doing the research and work to support your passion and mission * How anger, depression, guilt, and isolation can increase the impact of compassion fatigue
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Green Cross Compassion Fatigue Therapist Certification
Pet Loss Grief Recovery Specialist Certification
The Compassion Fatigue Podcast
Deepwater Counseling
Our events:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal and Ethical Issues in Developing Your Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Why people become supervisors * Models of supervision * The importance of good supervision * What makes supervision ineffective * The problem with the notion of “training the competition” or seeing supervisees money making machines * How to nurture the next generation * Finding the right supervisor/supervisee match * The different aspects of supervision: administrative, clinical, professional development, consumer protection * Differences between public mental health and private practice supervision * Our anger about people taking advantage of prelicensees * The importance of following employment law * How supervision impacts the profession * The difference between therapy and supervision * What supervisees are responsible for (and what they shouldn’t be responsible for, but often are) * School and supervisors passing the buck – you should learn about this in school, they should train you in supervision
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
CAMFT (California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists) Certified Supervision Program
The Developmental Model of Supervision
Reflective Supervision
Recovery-Oriented Supervision
Trauma-Informed Supervision
Seven-Eyed Supervision Model by Hawkins and Shohet
Curt’s Supervision Workshop:
Supervision in Private Practice: Legal & Ethical Issues
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Paul Gilmartin We so enjoyed talking with Paul!
From 1995 to 2011 Paul Gilmartin co-hosted TBS’ Dinner and a Movie and has been a stand-up comedian since 1987. His credits include Comedy Central Presents: Paul Gilmartin, numerous Bob and Tom albums, comedy festivals and the Late Show with Craig Ferguson.
Paul is a recovering alcoholic/addict and has been sober since 2003. He is also an incest survivor and has been in treatment for depression since 1999. He is a big believer in therapy and support groups.
Paul hosts a weekly audio podcast, The Mental Illness Happy Hour, consisting of interviews with artists, friends, listeners and the occasional mental health professional about all the battles in our heads; from medically diagnosed conditions, past traumas and sexual dysfunction to everyday compulsive, negative thinking. It gets about 600,000 downloads per month, has a 5/5 iTunes rating where it frequently occupies the top spot in Self-Help, was chosen by Esquire as one of the best podcasts of 2016 and is featured in the 2013 PBS Documentary "A New State of Mind."
You can learn more about Paul and The Mental Illness Happy Hour podcast here: www.mentalpod.com.
In this episode we talk about: * How Paul’s experience of covert incest and battle with depression led to creating The Mental Illness Happy Hour * Paul’s mission to decrease mental health stigma and provide a virtual support group * The power of conversation and community * The importance of empathy and validation * How therapists connect best with their clients * The survey Paul has on his website about what therapists are doing right and what they are really doing wrong. * What therapists are often missing when they become distracted or forgetful * How damaging it is when therapists minimize their client’s feelings, trauma, and abuse * The importance of overcoming “you’re only nice to me because I pay you” for therapists
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Mental Illness Happy Hour Podcast
(Katie’s Episode on Mental Pod)
The First Day in Therapy Survey
Curt’s almost weekly mention of Scott Miller and his work
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Regulation of therapy versus the “wild west” of coaching * The differences between therapy and coaching * How to have both a therapy and a coaching practice * The confusion that can come from using clinical language to describe coaching * Drawing the line to protect your license (especially for those therapists who are working across state lines) * Telehealth versus coaching in another state * Personal development versus healing * The pros and cons of regulation * What is the recourse for bad coaches * Holding the frame for each type of relationship
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
International Coaching Federation
Consumer Affairs
Better Business Bureau
California Board of Behavioral Sciences
Katie’s Websites:
www.evolvetothriveconsulting.com
www.katievernoy.com
Our events this year:
The Brand Called “You”: Legal & Ethical Issues in Developing a Personal Brand
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Jeanette Tolson, LCSW, CASAC We so enjoyed talking with Jeanette Tolson!
Jeanette Tolson is the founder of Transcendent Counseling and Consulting. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Credentialed Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Counselor in New York. She earned her Masters in Social Work at SUNY Albany and completed a Postgraduate Certificate in Sex Therapy and Sexuality Education at the University of Michigan. Prior to opening her private practice in 2015, she was the Executive Director for a not for profit community recovery organization. Ms. Tolson currently has an academic appointment at SUNY Delhi and has been teaching there continuously since 2009.
Ms. Tolson has worked in a variety of outpatient settings. Her clinical interests include working with relationships from an attachment perspective, LGBTQ issues, recovery from infidelity, and substance use disorders.
You can learn more about Jeanette on her website: www.jeanettetolsonlcsw.com
In this episode we talk about: * Jeanette’s success (and bravery) in having the strong niche of sex therapy in a small town, while filling a private pay practice * Increasing mental health access * The gap related to healthy sexual relationships within typical addiction treatment * Creating a strong niche and getting creative about how you do services and fill your practice * Navigating dual relationships in a town where everyone knows your name * Advanced assessment and decision-making related to who you should see, especially related to inevitable dual relationships in a small town * Leveraging close relationships in business networking * Having a clear vision for your practice, being creative and standing your ground
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Setting Fees * Ethical codes related to setting fees such as community standards * Anti-trust laws, including The Sherman Act * Solid business practices * The effect of martyrdom and the culture of humility on therapists asking for money * Talking about fees in a hybrid (insurance, private pay) as well as private pay only practices * Considerations for posting your fees on your website * Accepting credit cards, fees and the cash discount * Curt’s argument for accepting Bitcoin (and Katie’s argument for why that is ridiculous)
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Sherman Antitrust Act
Bitcoin
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Mercedes Samudio, LCSW, Parent Coach We so enjoyed talking with Mercedes Samudio!
Mercedes Samudio, LCSW is a parent coach, speaker, and bestselling author who helps parents and children communicate with each other, manage emotional trauma, navigate social media and technology together, and develop healthy parent-child relationships. Over the course of her career, she has worked with adoptive families, foster families, teen parents, parents navigating the child protective services system, and children living with mental illness. Mercedes started the #EndParentShaming movement as well as coined the term Shame-Proof Parenting (check out the bestselling book here) – using both to bring awareness to ending parent shame. Mercedes is a leading parenting expert and has an amazing following on social media that allows her to reach the hearts of thousands of parents who feel heard and seen on their parenting journey. She has been featured on The Huffington Post, US News and Report, Woman’s Day, LA Parent Magazine, CBS LA, and Kids In The House. Mercedes seeks to empower parents to believe that they are already great guides for raising healthy and happy children.
You can read more about her parenting expertise at https://shameproofparenting.com.
In this episode we talk about: * Shame-Proof Parenting and how therapists can shame the parents they serve * Having a big message and crafting it for your audience * Becoming an Amazon best-seller * Being both a coach and a clinician * Being a geek and using sci-fi and fantasy (especially Star Wars and the Marvel Universe) to talk about family dynamics * Being authentic and vulnerable with your story * Managing vulnerability through a strong sense of self and a supportive community
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Shame-Proof Parenting by Mercedes Samudio
Homework Wars by Mercedes Samudio
Paper Raven Books
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Typical cancellation policies * Informed consent * What ethical problems to consider when scheduling your clients * How respect in the relationship plays into attendance * Clinical considerations for cancellation policies * The pros and cons of different lengths of time required for cancellation (24-hour, 48-hour, etc.) * What to do when YOU cancel a session due to illness or emergency * Collecting no show or late cancellation fees * The importance of consistency in following your policies
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Michael Jurenka, CPA We so enjoyed talking with Mike Jurenka!
Mike has been a Certified Public Accountant since 2006. After graduating from Montana State University, he moved to Seattle and spent the first five years of his career working for Clark Nuber, PS, in Bellevue, WA. His areas of expertise include commercial and individual income tax. His strongest expertise is working with closely held businesses and their owners on tax issues that arise throughout the course of running a business. He consulted with clients at Clark Nuber on accounting for income taxes for large private and smaller publicly traded clients.
In this episode we talk about: * How the New Tax Bill for 2018 in the United States impacts private practice businesses * New limits on deductions and the cap on deductions * Solid business practices * Different business entities and what the heck a pass-through corporation is * The complication of pass-through deductions * Business expenses versus deductions * When and why to incorporate * How to choose an accountant * How to plan for taxes in 2018
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
You can learn more about Michael Jurenka, CPA at www.fjcpas.com
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide NEW Facebook Group!!
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * How to proactively create a positive online reputation * Managing Google – considering what people will find under your name * Clinical mechanisms to get consistent feedback (and of course, Curt talks about Scott Miller) * Claiming your profiles to track reviews and ensure accurate information * How to professionally address negative feedback * Making sure to do self-assessment when getting constructive criticism * Managing One Star reviews on Yelp, Healthgrades, etc. * Engaging appropriately in Therapist Facebook groups * The Screenshot Test from TIPP * The internet is forever and all of your interactions can potentially impact your online rep
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Rate and Review our Podcast on iTunes!!
APA (American Psychological Association) article: One-Star Therapy? by Jamie Chamberlain
CAMFT (California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists) article: You, Yelp, and Social Media by Alain Montgomery, JD (requires CAMFT member access)
TIPP (Therapists in Private Practice) Facebook Group
The Modern Therapist’s Survival Guide NEW Facebook Group!!
The Therapy Reimagined Conference in Los Angeles in October 2018!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
www.therapyreimagined.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with James Guay, LMFT We so enjoyed talking with James Guay!
James Guay is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (#39252) inspired by seeing his clients transform from being perfectionistic, constantly on the go, feeling empty despite their successes to a place where they can finally truly relax, create a better work/life balance, and be more kind to themselves and others.
He’s also a social justice activist with a mission to help bring more compassion into the world — especially for oppressed minorities. To advance this cause, he’s testified against conversion therapy at California’s State Capital, appeared on Lisa Ling’s Our America show, appeared on various documentaries including VICE, and has been interviewed and/or written articles for Time, NY Times, LA Times, Huffington Post, Rage Magazine and the Advocate.
In this episode we talk about: * Creating understanding and compassion * Overcoming perfectionism * James talks about becoming a “gay activist” and sharing his own story of conversion therapy * How to handle clients googling you when you’ve been real and shared your own story in a real way, especially when it comes into the room * Working within your own community * How advocacy is good marketing * Prevention efforts through social advocacy * Raising your voice to empower your clients * Aligning your work with your mission to stay energized and rejuvenated
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists (CAMFT)
You Can’t Be Neutral on a Moving Train by Howard Zinn
www.lynda.com
To learn more about James Guay, LMFT: www.livingmorefully.com
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more about Curt at www.curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more about Katie at www.katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Sorting through New Year’s Resolutions, developing goals, and creating habits * SMART goals * Why it’s important to have big goals, but also identify the small steps to get there * Paying attention to the context of your life when creating goals * Assessing what’s realistic and what is an appropriate stretch goal * The importance of accountability * How to balance what you put out there and what you keep under wraps * Celebrating accomplishment * How specific you need to be to create true life-style changes (and how long they really take) * The strategy of goal setting – asking for help, delegating, and deciding what you can just stop doing
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Profit from the Positive by Greenberg and Maymin
Katie’s Embrace Your Leadership Event (in January 2018 in Los Angeles, CA)
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: curtwidhalm.com.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: katievernoy.com.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The definitions of self-care * Legal and ethical codes require clinician self-care * Why self-care is hard for therapists * Active versus passive self-care * Proactive versus reactive self-care * Specific risks and strategies to overcome them
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
Netflix
Wine
Napping
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Carmen Roman We enjoyed talking with Dr. Carmen Roman!
Dr. Carmen Roman is a bilingual and bicultural psychotherapist with 25 years of experience working in both Mexico and in California. She combines both cultures and both worlds in the session. She specializes in creative expression as a form of treatment for sexual abuse, trauma, and immigration related stress. Some clinical issues she works with are: anxiety, depression, fear, severe trauma, or low self-esteem. Her clients are psychologists, counselors, religious leaders, and people in the entertainment industry. Based on Gestalt therapy she helps her clients to live with awareness, responsibility and in the here-and-now. Aided by the transpersonal psychology she addresses issues of spirituality, the use of meditation and shamanic experiences. She is a specialist in creative expression in therapy at master's and PhD levels.
In this episode we talk about: * Navigating a therapy practice serving 2 countries as well as numerous cultures and languages * Bringing psychotherapy to rural areas and indigenous people * Staying current with the Latino perspective, the language, and what is happening in Mexico * Cultural implications of diverse clientele – not assuming you understand and asking the right questions * The integration of philosophy, anthropology, and psychology * Unique challenges of a bilingual practice * The importance of social justice and “rescuing the dignity” of your clients * The implications of unplanned, unplugged time.
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
To learn more about Dr. Carmen Roman:
Website www.emotionsinharmony.com
Email her at carmen@armoniaemocional.com
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DraCarmenRoman/
Twitter https://twitter.com/DraCarmenRoman
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/user/cafecitovirtual
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Philip Zimbardo We were so honored to talk with Dr. Philip Zimbardo at The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference!
Philip G. Zimbardo is an internationally recognized scholar, educator, researcher and media personality, winning numerous awards and honors in each of these domains. He has been a Stanford University professor since 1968, having taught previously at Yale, NYU and Columbia. Zimbardo's career is noted for giving psychology away to the public through his popular PBS-TV series, Discovering Psychology, along with many text and trade books, among his 300 publications. He was recently president of the American Psychological Association.
In this episode we talk about: * Positive Psychology * Becoming a modern-day hero * Zimbardo’s wife, Christina Maslach and the Maslach Burnout Inventory * Rebranding from working on evil * Curt and Katie geeking out
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
To learn more about Dr. Philip Zimbardo: http://www.zimbardo.com
He was also open for questions: drzimbardo@gmail.com
The Heroic Imagination Project: https://www.heroicimagination.org
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
Interview with Dr. Michael Yapko We were so honored to talk with Dr. Michael Yapko at The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference!
Michael D. Yapko, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist and marriage and family therapist residing in Fallbrook, California. He is internationally recognized for his work in developing strategic, outcome-focused psychotherapies, the advanced clinical applications of hypnosis, and active, short-term non-pharmacological treatments of depression. He routinely teaches to professional audiences all over the world. To date, he has been invited to present his ideas and methods to colleagues in more than 30 countries across six continents, and all over the United States.
Dr. Yapko has been a passionate advocate for redefining how we think about and treat peoples’ problems, especially the most common ones of anxiety and depression. He has been a vocal critic of medicalizing such problems by calling them illnesses when there is substantial evidence that they are about much more than biology alone. He further questions the all-too-common treatment approach of simply medicating people with drugs whose safety and efficacy are highly questionable.
In this episode we talk about: * Additional reflections on The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference * The importance of psychotherapy * How therapists have shot themselves in the foot * The problem of bioreductionism (we are not only our brains)
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
To learn more about Dr. Michael Yapko: https://yapko.com/michael-yapko/
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: We reflect on our experiences during the conference as well as share perspectives from a wide array of participants and fellow exhibitors:
Amelia Mosley, Amethyst Kianipur, Arlen Grajeda, Boonie Sripom, Felician Douville, Frances Robbins, Jennie Steinberg, Karin Matthews, Katrina Watkins, Kenneth Rudnicki, Khali Koetting, Mercedes Samudio, and Robyn D’Angelo, Amanda Schaeffer (Good Therapy), Anita Avedian (Anger Management 818), Dana Schwartz (Center for Discovery), Heather Potter (Thera-Link), Howard Spector (SimplePractice), Jo Muirhead, Nancy Milazzo (CAMFT), Nicol Stolar-Peterson (Therapist Court Prep), and Perry Rosenblum (Brighter Vision)
Topics discussed:
#ModernTherapistProblems
#EvolveMore
And how amazing and rejuvenating it can be to go to the Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference and connect with other clinicians!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
No specific resources this episode, but stay tuned because we have a couple more special episodes from this conference coming this week!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren’t trying to take their voice and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don’t want to, but hey.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
Episode 12: Having Fun at The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference
Survival Guide Tips, Tools, and Name Dropping
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: We’re having a great time at The Evolution of Psychotherapy Conference!!
We sat down and talked with so many of the exhibitors and participants.
Adam Luke, Alise Bartley, Ben Caldwell, Chris Williams, Cori Rosenthal, Douglas Evans, Ernesto Segismundo, Frances J. Harvey, Jason Odegaard, Jean Penilla, Jill Johnson-Young, Jo Muirhead, Joanne Holbert, Joey Tapia-Fuselier, Kelly Higdon, Lilia Carey, Maelissa Hall, Melissa Garcia, Miranda Palmer, Rachel McMurray, Saba Harouni Lurie, Sana Vawda, Sandra Miller, Sherry Shockey-Pope, Silvy Khoucasian, Susette Magana, Terry Heptinstall, Uriah Guilford, and Zanetta Van Putten
We have more interviews to come!! Check back!!
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
We’re going to be at Exhibitor Table #142 at the conference. Come visit us to meet us, hop on the podcast or livestream, and to take advantage of our giveaways and raffles. Learn about our exciting events for next year and sign up for opportunities to get extra special rates during our flash sale!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Navigating the conference * Geeking out over therapy * Connecting with colleagues all over the world * Survival Guide Tips: + Plan to support your own stamina + Pick speakers, not topics (don’t miss people this time around – they may not be around the next time) + Go early to get good seats at the big talks * Names we drop + Bandura, both Becks, Chopra, Glasser, Loftus, Meichenbaum, Miller, Minuchin, Morisette, Siegel, Yalom, Zieg, Zimbardo
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
We’re going to be at Exhibitor Table #142 at the conference. Come visit us to meet us, hop on the podcast or livestream, and to take advantage of our giveaways and raffles. Learn about our exciting events for next year and sign up for opportunities to get extra special rates during our flash sale!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We’re working on it.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * When and how to talk about politics and religion * Authenticity versus poor boundaries * Countertransference, here and now feelings, and following the client’s lead * Remembering that clients don’t have to hold confidentiality for us * How and when to pull back the curtain about why you’re using a specific intervention * Processing (without over-processing) shifts in the relationships, personal disclosure, and human interactions * When to maintain objectivity and when to share your perspective and emotions * Understanding how your appearance affects your clients
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when Katie is speaking for Curt.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * Vulnerability, self-judgment and the Impostor Syndrome * Being a human being in the room, while holding boundaries * How to cope with clients responding to you, not just “therapy” or “mental health stigma” * Handling mistakes and making repair (and avoiding blaming your clients) * The scourge of perfectionism * Claiming your whole self (even the goofy parts) * What boundaries you should hold related to telling your own story * Inviting feedback from your clients * How being available 24/7 has increased vulnerability
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together any resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
No specific resources were mentioned in this episode because we’re just plain lazy. Want to read about vulnerability? Try anything by Brene Brown – she is fabulous!!
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when Katie is speaking for Curt – which, let’s face it, is in everyone’s best interest.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
It’s time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. We are human beings who can now present ourselves as whole people, with authenticity, purpose, and connection. Especially now, when therapists must develop a personal brand to market their practices.
To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age.
In this episode we talk about: * The importance of time management related to trust, competence, and well-being * How to manage your time, energy, and priorities * How often self-care can be pushed out of our schedule (and why that’s so bad) * Steven Covey’s Big Rocks * Putting buffers in, transition time, and back up plans (for after vacation, when sick, etc.) * What a crisis really is (and how non-crises can derail us) * “Just in time” scheduling
Resources mentioned: We’ve pulled together the resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links.
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey
Who we are: Curt Widhalm is a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is a Board Member at Large for the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, a Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, Adjunct Faculty at Pepperdine University, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby.
Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant. As a helping professional for two decades, she’s navigated the ups and downs of our unique line of work. She’s run her own solo therapy practice, designed innovative clinical programs, built and managed large, thriving teams of service providers, and consulted hundreds of helping professionals on how to build meaningful AND sustainable practices. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world.
Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com
https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/
https://twitter.com/therapymovement
Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/
Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/
In this episode we talk with Maureen Werrbach about all things Group Practice:
- What to consider when starting a group practice
- Business plans and finances
- How to shift your marketing and branding for a group practice
- Structuring your practice and your schedule
- Guilt and self-doubt
- Hiring, mentoring, and workplace culture
- How to build a strong team
- The mistakes Maureen made (and what she says to do differently)
In this episode we talk about:
- Whether you should decorate your office
- What to do about gifts
- Potential trauma, triggers, pitfalls, and challenges related to holidays for clients
- Diversity of your clients, colleagues, and community
- Navigating scheduling challenges during the holidays
- Fluctuating caseloads
- Deciding whether to eat with your clients
- Helping clients to cope during the holidays
- Thanking referral sources during the holidays
In this episode, we talk about:
- How to assess ourselves
- Identifying who are clients are and how they find us
- How to screen clients appropriately
- Using humor – when, how, and why
- Being yourself while holding appropriate boundaries
- Evaluating clinical efficacy
- Talking about the therapeutic relationship with your client
- The importance of community, consultation, supervision, and feedback
Networking is an important skill for all therapists. In this episode we answer the following questions:
- Why is networking important?
- What are the common challenges that therapists face?
- How to network effectively
- Developing and talking about your niche
- Becoming memorable to get more referrals – your personal brand
- Giving out business cards and how to follow up
- Strategies for effective coffee meetings
- Developing a collaborative treatment team of referral partners
After healing her own burnout, Jamie Stacks, LPC began a crusade to help other clinicians with their self-care.
In this episode, we address the following:
- Self-care as an ethical imperative
- A holistic approach to self-care
- The importance of community
- Why balance is B.S.
- Self-compassion
- Blocks to self-care including time and guilt
- Jamie's burnout story and how she spends her days now
- Jamie's coffee habit
We had a blast talking with Ernesto Segismundo Jr. M.S. LMFT, of Fylmit.com about all things social media and video marketing.
- Creating a therapist social media presence
- Legal and Ethical issues related to posting video content online
- The importance of authenticity and genuineness for your personal brand
- How to get visibility on Social Media
- Creating community and engagement with referral sources and colleagues online
In this episode:
- How has psychotherapy changed?
- What do modern clients, patients want?
- Private, personal, and professional parts of life.
- Living your personal brand
- Can we take our clients further than we’ve gone ourselves?
- Benefits of being a “whole person” or human therapist.
- Self-assessment and clinical efficacy.
- Challenges of the therapist/business-owner.
- Self-care, boundaries, and avoiding burnout.
- Katie and Curt talk about their worst sessions
Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy have a brand new podcast, talking about how to navigate Modern Therapist Problems:
- Private Practice building and business ownership
- Social Media
- Personal Branding
- Authenticity - in your marketing and in the room
- Moving away from being a blank slate and the medical model of mental health treatment
- Self-care as a helper, therapist, social worker, or counselor