Raw Data By P3 Adaptive: Recent Episodes
P3 Adaptive
Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is a podcast hosted by Rob Collie, CEO of P3 Adaptive-A Gold Microsoft Partner. Rob and his guests share their expertise and insight about Business Intelligence , Power BI, and the world of data...with the human element! The Raw Data By P3 Adaptive podcast fits our "mullet" approach: business in the front and a bit of party in the back!
There have always been people who can't help themselves. Give them a clunky process, a messy spreadsheet, or a problem nobody owns, and they're already halfway to building something better. Rob calls them crafters. They were valuable before AI. They're becoming indispensable because AI rewards exactly the way they've always worked.
While everyone else is trying to "become AI native," crafters are doing something much less glamorous. They're making one workflow better. Then another. Pedro Rossello from Aderant is one of those people. Along with Rob and P3's own David "Oz" Osorio, he makes the case that the biggest AI wins don't come from chasing the newest thing. They come from solving real business problems with better tools and better judgment.
The funny thing is, those wins don't always look like AI success stories. They look like fewer headaches, smarter decisions, and work that simply gets done better than it did last week. That's the crafter's edge. It isn't flashy. It isn't loud. But it's probably what separates the companies still talking about AI from the ones already putting it to work.
AI headlines have already moved on to the deep end. Most businesses haven't.
Every week brings another headline about what's next for AI. Build your own model. Train your own LLM. Customize everything. It's exciting, unless you're one of the thousands of companies still trying to answer a much simpler question: where does AI actually fit into the work we do every day?
Here's the thing. AI has become everyone's priority and almost nobody's job. Leadership knows it matters but the real work still lives inside thousands of everyday workflows, where tribal knowledge, context, and experience drive the decisions. That's the gap, and it's a very different problem than the one the headlines are chasing.
That's the conversation Rob and Justin have this week. Sparked by Satya Nadella's comment that every company should eventually have its own LLM, they make the case that the industry is getting ahead of itself. As Rob puts it, "Everyone's sitting poolside and Satya's talking about the deep end." Most organizations don't need a custom model. They need AI that understands their business, their data, and their workflows. That's where the biggest wins are happening today, and it's exactly where companies should be focused before they start worrying about building their own LLM.
If AI has started to feel like an arms race you somehow missed, this episode is a welcome reminder that the biggest opportunities are still waiting in the shallow end.
For about two years, we've all been reaching for the biggest hammer on the wall because someone else was paying for the nails. If you were on a subscription, you grabbed the biggest, baddest model on the menu and used the crap out of it. Two hundred dollars a month for work that would have cost thousands on the meter. It rounded to free.
Then a new model showed up for roughly fifteen minutes.
It wasn't covered by anyone's subscription. It was priced by the token. And Rob immediately saw something much bigger than a product launch. The migration everyone assumed would be painful, moving millions of people away from all you can eat subscriptions, suddenly had a simple answer. Just make the newest, smartest model a premium experience. Checkmate. The buffet doesn't disappear. You just have to decide whether the lobster is worth paying for.
Justin made the exact mistake he told himself he wouldn't make. He tried it anyway. He handed the model a sprawling request to audit an entire codebase and walked away. It came back with nearly twenty legitimate findings, from accessibility improvements to a legal disclosure that referred to the company as a corporation instead of an LLC. More importantly, it handled a level of independent work he wouldn't have trusted another model to do. His reaction afterward said everything: "I wish I hadn't tried it." Because once you've seen what the next generation can do, you can't unsee it. But if using it costs six or seven thousand dollars a month for one developer, "always use the best model" stops being a habit and starts becoming a business decision.
Whether you're building with AI every day or just trying to make sense of where it's all headed, this conversation is a good reminder that the technology isn't the only thing changing. The business model is too. Give it a listen and see where Rob and Justin think it all leads.
For years, Rob had a pretty good system.
When a new technology showed up, he didn't immediately declare it the next big thing. He wanted to understand why it mattered first. Sometimes that meant jumping in early, like he did with Power BI. Other times, it meant waiting until the signal was stronger than the hype.
AI was different.
It was the first technology that made Rob question whether his usual approach was enough.
That's where Fair Game begins.
In this special episode, Rob shares the foreword from the audiobook, along with his introduction to Eddie, the AI collaborator that helped shape the book from first draft to finished manuscript. More importantly, he tells the story behind the story. How someone who never considered himself an AI evangelist ended up writing a book about it, why fear became an unexpectedly good teacher, and why he came away convinced that AI success has far less to do with the models themselves than most people think.
If you've been hearing Rob talk about Fair Game over the past several months, this is your first chance to hear how it all comes together. It's not Chapter One. It's the reason there had to be a Chapter One.
Also in this episode:
Fair Game Preorders
Microsoft just unveiled a monster of a machine built for local AI. More memory. More horsepower. More everything.
Which led Rob and Justin to a question that has almost nothing to do with the hardware.
Are we already using more AI than the job actually requires?
This conversation starts with Microsoft's latest announcement but quickly turns into something much bigger. When do you actually need a frontier model? When is a smaller model just as good? And what happens when companies stop optimizing for the smartest AI and start optimizing for the right AI?
It's a familiar pattern. New technology shows up, everyone assumes bigger is better, and eventually we learn that the best solution isn't the most powerful one. It's the one that's powerful enough. AI may be reaching that point faster than anyone expected.
Along the way, Rob and Justin dig into the economics of tokens, why developers should think differently than everyday AI users, and why Microsoft's latest hardware announcement feels like it's missing a piece of the story. They don't pretend to have all the answers. Instead, they do what this podcast does best: pull on an interesting thread until a much better conversation emerges.
If your first instinct has been to reach for the biggest model every time, this episode might convince you that the future belongs to the people who know when not to.
For the past few years, the conversation around AI has focused on the technology. Which model is best. Which tools to use. How fast everything is changing. But once you start building with it, a different challenge emerges. The technology is often the easy part. The hard part is everything else. The definitions that don't match. The documentation nobody trusts. The tribal knowledge living in someone's head. The processes that work only because a few key people know how to navigate around the mess. Business intelligence exposed some of these problems years ago. AI is exposing even more of them.
For years, the people who cared about semantic models were mostly talking to each other. Everyone else had a simpler view: the dashboards worked, the BI nerds were overcomplicating things, and if a slightly different version of yesterday's question showed up, someone could always write more SQL. That worked well enough until AI agents became the ones asking the questions. Agents don't wait two weeks for a developer. They improvise. And the improvisation is different every time. That's the moment the semantic model stopped being a nice-to-have and started looking a lot more like a requirement. Every data quality problem that used to come home to roost the first time you built a dashboard is back, only now the list is longer. AI cares about policies, institutional knowledge, organizational context, and all the things that used to live quietly in people's heads. The one-version-of-the-truth problem just got a much bigger job description.
Along the way, Rob and Justin compare notes from the front lines of building with AI, from multi-agent systems and knowledge management to the unexpected ways these tools behave once they leave the lab and meet real organizations. There's a book update in here too. Fair Game is officially available for pre-order, and Rob shares why the independent bookstore route matters more than most people realize. If you've been wondering what happens after the AI works, this episode is a pretty good place to start.
Also in this episode:
Pre-order Fair Game: Customizing AI to Your Business Is Easier Than You Think
Fortune: Big Tech is laying off developers. My company just hired its first. We're both right about AI (By Rob Collie)
If you've listened to the podcast over the past several months, you've probably heard Rob mention "the book" a few times.
Well, it's finally done.
In this solo episode, Rob reveals the title, shares the story behind it, and talks about the question that sent him down the AI rabbit hole in the first place: what does this technology actually mean for normal businesses? Not Silicon Valley. Not billion dollar tech companies. The rest of us.
What he found was both simpler and more surprising than expected. The farther he got from the headlines and hot takes, the clearer it became that AI isn't some magical new category of technology. It's a lot closer to the data, software, and business problems companies have been wrestling with for years. Which raises an interesting question: if AI is more approachable than most people think, why are so many organizations still standing on the sidelines waiting for someone else to go first?
As it turns out, that question became a book. And this episode is the story of how it got there.
Also in this episode:
Pre-order Fair Game: Customizing AI to Your Business Is Easier Than You Think
Fortune: Big Tech is laying off developers. My company just hired its first. We're both right about AI (By Rob Collie)
Rob was supposed to be finishing his book. Last chapter. Two days past deadline. Freedom was right there.
Instead, he hit pause and recorded this.
Because something from a few weeks ago wouldn't leave him alone.
A Microsoft exec had dropped "Microsoft IQ" into a conversation weeks ago. At the time, it didn't fully land. Not unusual. There's been a steady firehose of new terms, new features, new promises. Most of them sound important. Not all of them are.
Then he got deep into the data chapter. The one where you have to stop talking about what AI could do and deal with what it takes to make it work in a real company.
And that's where this thing stopped sounding like a label and started looking like a plan.
AI looks great right up until you ask it to do something that depends on your business. Your definitions. Your documents. Your people. That's where things usually start to wobble. Not because the model isn't capable, but because it doesn't have the context to land the answer.
What Microsoft is doing with IQ is trying to meet that problem head on.
· Fabric IQ is the structured side. Semantic models doing what they've always done, but now under a lot more pressure.
· Foundry IQ is all the documents and content you forgot you had.
· Work IQ is the human layer. Who's involved. Who needs to know. What you meant when you said "that thing."
And yeah… if you've been doing Power BI the right way, this is where it gets interesting. Because those semantic models everyone else treated like optional homework? That's now the thing everything else leans on.
We're not saying this episode is the key to your AI implementation, but it will make it clear why some of this is working and some of it isn't.
Garett Medlin just got the official title for the job he was already doing: AI Practice Lead at P3. He's also the person responsible for Rob trying Cowork in the first place, despite Rob's very reasonable question: "Why the hell would I want Cowork if I already have Claude Code?"
Then Rob accidentally proved Garett right.
He made an offhand comment about needing a better way to track feedback on book graphics. Nothing dramatic. Just the kind of annoying little process problem everyone complains about and nobody fixes. Two days later, there was a Slack bot reminding him to review images, a web app with approve buttons, surrounding context from the manuscript, and a clean way to send feedback without creating a Slack archaeology project. Built by a non developer. In Cowork.
Which makes Microsoft's Copilot Cowork story… awkward.
Garett came with the field report. Yes, it can make PowerPoints. Yes, it talks to OneDrive. No, it doesn't have memory. No, it doesn't have custom instructions. No, it doesn't have projects. The section where those capabilities are supposed to live is called "Acquired Skills," and it currently says they will appear here. Which is a choice.
At the same time, companies are getting top down mandates to spend $20 million a year on AI with absolutely no idea what they're supposed to spend it on. IT gets handed the problem, Copilot gets treated like the answer, and somebody nearby is always trying to sell a very expensive fear of the tools that already work.
This episode is really about that gap. Between what's shipping and what's still "coming soon." Between the people waiting for enterprise permission and the people already building useful things on a Tuesday afternoon. Turns out, the scariest part of AI might be realizing the non developers got there first.
Rob didn't go looking for a fight with the medical system. He just showed up with receipts. Claude had already mapped the symptoms, suggested the tests, and summarized the situation better than any portal ever would. And instead of pushing back, the doctor basically said, "Yeah, this all checks out," added a few things, and moved on. No drama. No turf war. Just a quiet moment where you realize… the system didn't break. It just got leapfrogged.
The next morning, sitting in an Uber on the way to the fasting lab, Rob had AI log into his medical portal, pull down test results, interpret them, suggest next steps, and tee up additional tests before the lab even opened. That's not "AI as a helper." That's AI running point. And when it catches an error in the doctor's AI-generated notes and fixes it by talking to their system directly… yeah. That's the moment. You don't unsee that.
Which is great… until you zoom out. Because the same thing that lets you bulldoze friction in healthcare also bulldozes friction everywhere else. Social media. Identity. Trust. If AI can operate the interface better than you can, the whole idea of "who's actually doing what" starts to get fuzzy real fast. There's a version of this where everything gets more efficient. There's another version where everything gets a little… fake. This episode walks through both. It's worth knowing which one you're already in.
Something shifted this year and you can see it in the reactions. Not to the technology. To people talking about it. Rob shared a screenshot on LinkedIn. CFO. Friday night. Using CoWork in real time. The kind of moment where you have to stop yourself because you won't sleep otherwise. And that's what set someone off. Not hype. Not a prediction. Just… "this is happening." Apparently that's enough now.
Rob calls it the knowledge cliff. AI knows three things. What's in the training. What it can pull from the web. And everything that only exists in your world. The first two feel almost the same. The third is where things break. That's where most of the frustration lives. If you haven't crossed that line yet, AI feels inconsistent. Impressive one minute, useless the next. If you have, it starts to look a lot more like real work getting done.
You can see it in companies already changing how they plan and operate. You can see it in schools trying to figure out how to respond. And you can definitely see it in the comments, where people react to the exact same example like they're living in two different worlds. You can't really be smug about it. But the people who've crossed the cliff aren't waiting for consensus. They weren't a year ago either.
This episode won't tell you what to think about AI but it will make it a lot harder to ignore what's already happening.
The job hunt is a numbers game. The problem is, the numbers are brutal.
Hundreds of applicants per role. Ghosted applications. "Entry level" jobs asking for experience no one at 22 could possibly have. In this episode, Rob brings on his daughter Ella, a college senior in the middle of it, and hands her something different. Not advice. Not a better resume template. A coworker that doesn't get tired, doesn't lose track, and doesn't stop digging.
Within 48 hours, she's using Claude Cowork to search across sources, filter for real roles, verify listings, organize everything into a system, and adjust the criteria on the fly when the market doesn't cooperate. It's messy. It's imperfect. And it's wildly more effective than doing it alone. Watching it happen in real time makes one thing pretty obvious. This isn't about AI helping you think. It's about AI helping you work.
One person scrolling and hoping. One person running a system that never stops. Listen to this episode to decide which side of that you want to be on.
The work feels different now.
You can hear it in this one. Something that used to feel like overhead suddenly starts pulling its weight. Not a demo. Not something you have to babysit. It's actually doing useful work while you're still figuring out what you want. That's a weird moment the first time you see it. And then it stops being weird and just becomes the new normal.
It shows up in a few places here. Cowork starts earning its keep. The "data gene" gets reworked into something that fits where things are going. And there's a moment that might make you a little uncomfortable if you've spent years leaning on tools like WordPress to get things out the door. Because the gap those tools were filling is getting smaller. Fast. The people who like to build and adjust as they go feel that immediately. They don't want to wait around for results. Now they don't have to.
And then there's the other camp. The folks who checked this out once, decided it wasn't that impressive, and moved on. Still pretty confident the whole thing is overblown. You can feel that tension in this episode. And it matters. Because a year ago this would've sounded like a stretch. It doesn't anymore.
Most AI still lives in the "that's pretty cool" category. It answers questions, writes a decent paragraph, maybe even points you in the right direction. And then you still have to go do the work.
That line is starting to move. Not in theory. In real, hands on, open the file and keep going kind of ways. We're talking about outputs that don't fall apart the second you touch them. Work that shows up structured, editable, and worth building on. That's a very different experience than what most people think of when they hear "AI."
Some of this stuff still feels like a demo. You try it, you nod, and then you go back to doing things the old way. Other parts are starting to feel different. You give it something real and it gives you something back you can use without starting over. That's the shift. And once you see it, it's hard to unsee.
Listen to the episode and decide where AI in your business is still a demo and where it's finally ready to pull its weight.
Most people think they've already experienced AI. They've asked a chatbot a question, had it summarize something, maybe even draft an email. That version is useful, but it isn't the one that actually changes how work gets done. The real shift starts when AI stops talking about work and starts participating in it. That's the moment Rob ran into while experimenting with Cowork tools, and it was convincing enough to push him into changes he hasn't made since the DOS era.
Microsoft just announced Copilot Cowork, and Rob thinks it could turn out to be the most significant AI product Microsoft has shipped so far. Not because of a flashy feature list, but because of where it lives. When something like this can operate across the Microsoft 365 environment where work already happens, it suddenly has real context. Files in OneDrive. Documents in SharePoint. Conversations in Teams. Meetings in Outlook. At that point the tool isn't sitting off to the side anymore. It's working inside the same ecosystem your team already runs on.
Most of the working world is still standing on the quiet side of an inflection point they don't fully see yet. Once tools like this start showing up inside the systems companies already use every day, things will move quickly. In this episode Rob and Justin unpack why this moment matters, why Copilot Cowork could change how people experience AI at work, and what it means for the people and organizations paying attention right now. If that includes you, this is the one to listen to.
Every once in a while a new tool shows up that bends the career curve for a certain kind of person. Not everyone. Just the people with that itch to poke at systems until they finally give up their secrets. The same instinct that used to turn someone into the unofficial Excel wizard in the office is now colliding with AI development tools that can help you build real software. If you have the data gene, this moment feels a little like someone just handed you a much bigger toolbox.
It has a lot in common with what happened when Power BI first showed up. For years the people who understood the business problems best were stuck with tools that could only go so far. Power BI suddenly bridged that gap. Now AI assisted development is doing something similar across the rest of the tech stack. The distance between I know what the answer should be and I can build the thing that proves it is shrinking fast.
Of course, building something is not the same thing as building a company. Rob and Justin get into that too. AI can help you spin up software faster than ever, but the hard parts of business still live somewhere else. Vision. Distribution. Understanding the real problem well enough to solve it in a way that people care about. The tools are getting easier. The thinking still matters.
Also in this Episode: The Lion King Lyrics Revealed
Rob and Justin had a plan. Scale Justin's brain across the entire P3 consulting team. Build an AI agent that bottled up his frameworks, his instincts, the way he navigates AI conversations with clients. In theory, everyone gets smarter overnight. It was a solid idea. The tech worked. The knowledge base was deep. The guardrails were tight. And almost nobody used it. Not because it was broken. Because the team wasn't waking up thinking, "Man, if only I could channel Justin right now." That wasn't the fire in front of them. So instead of feeling like leverage, the agent felt like homework.
And that's the punchline. You can build something powerful and still miss the mark. No one was losing sleep over not having this tool. No one's bonus depended on it. So it drifted. Not rejected. Just... optional. That's a brutal place for a "strategic initiative" to land. The fix isn't a better tool. It's sequencing. Define the services, train the team, build the human infrastructure that makes the tool land on a surface that's ready for it. Every AI project that has worked traces back to the builder being a direct stakeholder. Not adjacent to the problem. In it. Proximity to the pain is doing a lot of work that no amount of clever architecture can replace.
When leaders are the ones excited about AI and employees are the ones expected to use it, you've got a stakeholder mismatch. And that mismatch is quietly killing more AI initiatives than any technical failure ever will. If you're planning a rollout, or already wondering why yours isn't sticking, this episode is for you. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform for new content delivered directly to your inbox.
There's an easy button for hard conversations now, and it's dangerously good. You've got something complicated to say. It needs nuance. It needs empathy. It probably needs a little courage. The AI will draft the whole thing in seconds. It sounds smart. It sounds reasonable. You skim it. You send it. And most of the time, nothing bad happens. The problem is that the time it does go bad is the exact situation where you thought you were being thoughtful. This week's Raw Data walks straight through one of those moments, from both sides of the exchange, and it's a reminder that outsourcing the structure of your thinking is not the same thing as being clear.
Then there's the part that's almost more interesting. Thirteen years ago, the first real client engagement couldn't get traction around dashboards. The connection between "this is my business" and "data should change how I run it" just didn't stick. Same people, same company, different conversation recently around AI. Immediate traction. Leaning forward. Connecting dots in real time. That difference isn't about better slides or better storytelling. Dashboards improved a slice of the business. AI shows up in the messy motion of the whole thing. In workflows. In manual processes. In strategic questions leaders don't have time to chase down. That shift in surface area changes everything.
AI isn't a toy and it isn't a ghostwriter. It's leverage. Real leverage. The kind that can remove friction across an organization faster than dashboards ever could. But leverage only works if you're still the one steering. That's really what this episode comes down to. Listen in, then decide where AI belongs in your workflow and where it needs to stay out of your head.
In this week's episode, Rob and Justin dig into the weird paralysis happening at enterprise scale. Fortune 500 companies are spending six months in high-level negotiations to build AI workflows that could be done in a week. IT departments, trained for decades to fear custom code, are watching their companies get lapped by competitors who just decided to turn the thing on. Everyone's releasing agent frameworks, every AI company's got one, some have more than one, and instead of clarifying things, it's freezing people up..
There's a massive gap between what AI can do right now and what most organizations are getting out of it. Justin calls it the capability overhang, and it's growing. Not because the technology isn't ready, but because of how businesses are approaching it. Rob's got stories from the field that'll make you feel like the guy in the manhole from Die Hard, waving his hands: "I can just do it right here. No really. Right here."
You'll learn what it really means to unlock AI (spoiler: it's not about waiting for the tech to get better), why hoping for built-in solutions is a fantasy, and why Claude is now updating its own instructions when it screws up. If you've been wondering whether you're behind on AI or just appropriately skeptical of the hype, this one's for you.
Also in this episode:
Juan Garcia on Raw Data with Rob Collie
Morpheus / The Matrix
Die Hard Manhole scene
This week's episode steps away from dashboards and delivery stories and into real life. Rob and Justin both spent the same week realizing how naturally AI is already showing up at home. Not as a plan. Not as a lesson. Just as part of how the next generation creates, explores, and even plans a date.
One household includes an about to graduate computer science student navigating a shrinking entry level job market, Discord as the default communication layer, and a Claude Code powered date night that feels entirely normal to everyone involved.
The other involves younger kids, a TV, a terminal window, and a two-hour experiment that turns into a fully illustrated story built with multiple AI tools, false starts included. Even Microsoft Word makes an appearance.
The stories are personal, but the takeaway is practical. AI rarely gets it right the first time. Iteration matters. Context matters. Switching tools matters. And exposure builds confidence faster than instruction.
This episode isn't about business use cases. It's about understanding how people actually acclimate to new technology and why that same pattern shows up inside organizations, whether leaders plan for it or not.
Also in this episode:
GitHub repository
This week's episode is a case study in what AI looks like when it's doing real work.
Juan Garcia runs an insurance company in Spain. Industry average profit margin is 5%. He's at 15%, headed for 18%. The difference? Five AI agents in production doing real work. Not pilot projects. Not demos for the board. Actual agents handling claims, customer questions, marketing decisions, fraud detection, and underwriting. His claims adjusters went from 10 cases a day to 50 because the AI does everything except the stuff that actually needs a human.
Here's the thing. Juan started this in mid-2023 with GPT-3.5. His team built 75 subagents to control quality on that first chatbot. That's the kind of smart engineering that makes AI work in production. He'll tell you exactly when to let the AI decide, when to kick it to a human, and why confidence thresholds matter more than anyone talks about. He'll also tell you where they won't use AI. Rejecting claims. Handling money. Anything that needs actual empathy. You can't fake that and you shouldn't try.
Want to know what works in production? Juan's got the decisions and the profit margins to back it up.
Also in this episode: Juan's Tuio presentation
This week's episode breaks the usual format, and that's the point.
Instead of a guest or a debate, Rob does something he hasn't done publicly in a long time. He reads the foreword to a book he's actively writing. The first one since 2015.
Back then, his books helped define how people learned Power BI. For a few years, he was literally the guy who wrote the book. Then he stopped. No updates. No sequels. An entire generation of practitioners came up without ever encountering his work.
So why return now?
Because the same pattern is repeating itself, just louder. This time with AI. The hype is everywhere, the confusion is real, and business leaders are being handed tools without a usable mental model for how success actually happens.
This foreword is an explainer. Plain English. Business focused. Written for leaders and for the people who have to help those leaders make good decisions. No formulas. No technical flexing. Just a clear frame for thinking about AI in a way that doesn't implode six months later.
Consider this episode an early access audio version of something that's still being built.
Give it a listen. And if the foreword resonates, stay close. This may not be the last chapter you hear early.
Those Excel macros running your business were never meant to be permanent. Someone in accounting built them because the company needed custom software and didn't have the budget or patience for a two-year IT project. IT hates them. You know they're fragile. But they work. And compared to expensive software that never quite fits, working counts for a lot.
In this episode, Rob and Justin dig into what might finally replace that world. Not in theory, but in practice. Over the next four years, is the real shift AI helping people build traditional software faster and cheaper? Or is it software that actually has AI running inside it at runtime? The difference matters if you're deciding where to invest time, money, or political capital.
They also tackle who's going to build this next-generation line of business tools. Is it the Power BI crowd all over again? The VBA veterans reinventing themselves? Or a new kind of builder who sits closer to the business than IT ever could?
If you're nursing a mission-critical spreadsheet you're afraid to touch, or paying too much for SaaS that almost fits, this conversation will feel uncomfortably familiar. And useful.
Listen to the episode and start thinking about what replaces your macros before they replace themselves.
Every week brings a new AI model, a new benchmark, and a new reason to believe everything just changed. But for most companies, none of that matters if the people closest to the work can't use these tools to build something real.
In this episode, Rob and Justin walk through what democratized data science really looks like. Not dashboards. Not prompts. Actual analysis and custom software built around a specific problem, driven by someone who knows the data well enough to challenge the answers. The difference isn't the technology. It's the person driving it. Someone who understands the data, the domain, and how to spot bad answers before they turn into bad decisions.
That's where the data gene shows up again. When those people are empowered to build software fitted to how work happens, off-the-shelf tools stop feeling helpful and start feeling like friction. This episode is about noticing that shift while everyone else is still watching benchmarks.
Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform for weekly reality checks on AI and Analytics delivered straight to your inbox.
Every week brings a new AI benchmark. Higher scores. Bigger claims. Louder voices insisting this changes everything. And yet, when you put AI in front of a real business problem, none of that noise seems to help. In this episode, Rob and Justin dig into why AI benchmarks often feel strangely meaningless in practice and why that disconnect is the point. Benchmarks aren't useless. They're just answering a different question than the one most businesses are asking.
This isn't just random conjecture either. Rob walks through what he's learned building actual AI workflows and why a twenty percent improvement on a leaderboard rarely translates into anything you can feel on the job. They talk about why model choice usually isn't the bottleneck, why swapping models should be easy if you've built things the right way, and why the most successful AI work rarely shows up as a flashy demo. Most of the value is happening quietly, off-screen, inside systems that look a lot more like normal software than artificial intelligence.
Rob and Justin also talk about why explaining AI is often harder than building it. The first demo people see tends to stick, even when it's the wrong one. Consumer AI feels magical. Business AI face plants unless it's built with intent, structure, and real context. This episode gives leaders better language for that gap, without hype or panic. If you're done chasing benchmarks and just want a way to think about AI that survives contact with reality, this episode's for you.
Everyone keeps asking whether AI kills Power BI or makes it stronger. Rui Romano flips that entire question on its head. As the Microsoft PM behind PBIP, TMDL, and all the file format work that rebuilt Power BI's foundation, he explains how the platform accidentally became one of the most AI-ready systems in analytics - and it wasn't by accident, not really. His team was solving problems for real developers who were tired of unsupported workarounds and offshore relay races. They weren't training agents. But the work they did means AI now feels native instead of duct-taped on.
What we learned was that the semantic model is still the highest ground in this whole space. While other tools let AI stumble through raw tables and pray the math holds up, a proper model gives AI the one thing it absolutely cannot fake: context. Relationships. Business logic that works at every level of granularity without falling apart. Rui breaks down why that matters now more than ever, why all the hardening work his team did keeps your models from exploding when an agent gets ambitious, and why the future of BI isn't about cranking out another hundred pixel-perfect dashboards. It's about fast iteration, lower friction, and answers you can trust at scale. Dashboards still matter - but only the ones people use.
This conversation goes deep on architecture, not hype. Rui talks about what's changing right now, what still needs work, and why natural language will eventually beat drag-and-drop for a lot of what we do today. If you've been wondering whether to invest in real semantic modeling or just let AI figure it out from scratch every single time, this episode makes the case for why foundations always win. Always.
Listen in and get ahead of the shift. And if the episode lands for you, leave us a review to help other folks find the show.
This episode starts with a familiar scene. A role opens, the applications pour in, and suddenly you're staring at a mountain of resumes that deserve real attention but arrive faster than anyone can process. The mix had everything… experienced candidates, newcomers trying to break in, and a growing stack of AI-generated submissions that looked sharp until you asked a second question.
That's where Haystack came in. Instead of using AI as a blunt filter, Rob and the team treated it like a collaborator. Teach it what matters. Teach it what P3 looks for in a teammate. Teach it how to separate real signal from polished noise. What came back wasn't a robot recruiter. It was clarity.
And Haystack is only half the story. As the conversation unfolds, Rob and Justin zoom out into the broader pattern they're seeing across all the small, useful agents taking shape inside P3. The stuff that isn't blind hype. The stuff that quietly fixes overloaded parts of the business and makes the human decisions easier to get right.
Because that's the through-line here. When AI handles the overflow, people get to spend their time on the work that actually requires judgment.
Queue it up and hear what happens when AI stops pretending to be magic and starts doing real work. And if you've got a corner of the business that's begging for that kind of clarity, we can help you find the tiny build that changes everything.
Rob finally cracked his years long standoff with the podcast lair cat, and the fix was hilariously simple. That small victory ends up setting the tone for the whole episode, because everything that follows has the same energy: real problems that only make sense once you shrink the solution down.
As Rob talks through the cat truce, Justin brings in a different kind of chaos. A customer service bot that sounded fully in command yet never actually did the thing it said it did. Pair that with a hiring queue full of AI written applications, and the whole picture starts to come into focus.
Once you see the pattern, you can't unsee it. The wins only show up when the AI job gets small. The fantasy football tool works the moment AI stops trying to scrape the entire internet and instead only writes the human part. The hiring filter works when AI is there to catch repetitive patterns, not run the whole show. Even the experiments coming out of Danielson Labs click only because the AI calls are tiny and the real work sits in regular code.
Everything points in the same direction. Let AI handle the one thing only AI can do, then let normal tech take it from there.
Everyone's talking about AI like it's plug-and-play. Spoiler: it's not. In this episode, Rob digs into why Big Tech's billions in AI R&D haven't yet turned into matching revenue — and what that means for the rest of us. The truth? The real business wins don't come from off-the-shelf models; they come from smart customization. Rob breaks down the "magic Lego brick" approach that separates hype from practical reality, showing how everyday tools like Power BI and Power Automate can connect to AI in surprisingly simple (and powerful) ways. He also revisits Bill Krolicki's "Vendor Bot" example to prove that you don't need to be a researcher or a billionaire to make AI deliver real results. If you've ever opened ChatGPT, asked it to "optimize operations," and gotten nowhere — this one's for you.
When the bubble pops, what's left standing?
Everyone's calling AI a bubble — and yeah, there's some wild stuff happening behind the scenes. Billions changing hands between the same few tech giants. Investments that look more like circular loans than innovation.
But what if the real bubble isn't AI at all?
Rob breaks down what's really inflating, what's not, and why your business shouldn't lose sleep over it. The headlines may sound like the sky's falling, but the tools driving real results aren't going anywhere.
Some bubbles burst. Others just float higher. Listen now to hear Rob's take on which kind this is and why the real value of AI doesn't care what the stock chart says.
Everyone's talking about AI. Almost no one's getting specific. And that's the problem.
Rob and Justin break down the three categories that matter: chat agents you talk to, embedded assistants baked into your workflows, and headless systems running quietly in the background doing the grunt work nobody wants to do.
This isn't theory. This is how AI is finally working for real companies.
They walk through Vendor Bot, Scheduler Bot, and Budget Bot — small, focused tools that do one thing exceptionally well. Because here's what keeps happening: the "one bot to rule them all" projects collapse under their own weight every single time.
But stack a few narrow, reliable bots together? That's when things get interesting.
If you've been wondering why AI works for some teams and stalls for others, this episode has your answer. Spoiler: it's not about going bigger. It's about getting ruthlessly specific.
The "we're all in on AI" era is over. The "we know where it fits" era just began.
If you like the show, be sure to leave us a review or share it on your platform of choice.
AI without the committee: Most manufacturers are still holding meetings about AI. Bill Krolicki just built it. As CFO of Interpak, he didn't wait for a strategy deck or a vendor pilot—he wired Power BI and Power Automate into a self-running operation. His bots read supplier emails, catch late shipments before they blow up production, and update the ERP while everyone else is still asking who owns the spreadsheet.
Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt sit down with Bill to talk about what happens when finance stops waiting and starts building. From "Vendor Bot" to the soon-to-launch "Budget Bot," it's a front-row look at how AI turns from theory to throughput when a data person is actually in charge—no consultants, no six-month roadmaps, just results.
If you've had your fill of AI hype and want to see what it looks like when someone actually ships something, this is your episode. And if you enjoyed it, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform—it helps other no-BS practitioners find us.
Last week we got a facelift—new name, new look, same deep data dives. This week? We prove the rebrand wasn't just cosmetic.
Rob kicks things off with a time machine moment: his first gig at Microsoft in the '90s, building the Windows Installer. The running joke back then? "Installing yesterday's apps tomorrow." Cut to 2025, and that exact same code shows up while he's configuring an AI tool for data modeling. Build something right, and it really sticks around.
And that's the bridge, AI context management isn't some brave new world. It's the same discipline that made Power BI models and Copilot integrations actually useful. You don't need to burn it all down and start over. You just need to get specific enough to matter.
If you've suffered through bloated "AI strategy" decks or watched a model confidently hallucinate through your business logic, this episode's for you. The fix isn't fancier AI—it's giving it structure, purpose, and the right context to work with. That's how you turn a show pony into a workhorse.
Bottom line: AI isn't a revolution. It's a new faucet. And the people who know how to connect it—and what to feed it—are already leading the next wave of transformation.
Everyone’s talking like AI is coming for your job. Rob’s here to tell you it’s coming for your skill set. If you already think in tables, models, and relationships, congratulations—you’re built for what’s next. This episode is part pep talk, part reality check, and all proof that data people aren’t getting replaced. We’re getting promoted.
Rob takes you inside Microsoft’s campus and out into the real world, where big firms are burning millions on AI theater while mid-market teams quietly pull ahead. The twist? You don’t need to change the AI to win with it. You just need to feed it the right data. That means the same instincts that made you good at Power BI now make you dangerous—in the best way.
This one’s for the data geners, the ones who never flinched at a gnarly spreadsheet and always saw potential where others saw pain. AI isn’t a threat. It’s your next playground. Listen in and meet the only cavalry that’s actually showing up: you.
Check out the first episode of Raw Data with Rob Collie and get ready to lead the AI charge.
Nobody loves requirements docs. They’re the corporate equivalent of writing a novel just so someone can skim the back cover. The real question is whether you can ditch all that and go straight from “here’s what I need” to a working Power BI model. In this episode, Rob and Justin push AI into that role and see what breaks, what builds, and what actually saves you time.
Turns out, the magic isn’t in making AI look impressive on a demo slide. It’s in whether it can wire up tables, relationships, and measures fast enough that your team can skip the plumbing and jump right to the good part: asking “does this answer the question?” instead of “why won’t this table join?” That’s the test, and it’s the only one that matters.
From tools that feel like friendly appliances to those that lean full hacker-mode, Rob and Justin run the gauntlet. They even crack open Copilot’s inner workings to see how answers really get formed. It’s a gritty look at whether AI can finally cut the “first-hour tax” every project pays and give leaders a faster path to value.
Large language models aren’t magic. They’re pivot tables for words. That’s the real breakthrough — not a crystal ball, not a robot overlord, but a new way to roll up all the noise in your business into something you can actually use. And that’s why AI belongs in the middle layer. Just like BI gave you visibility across systems, AI is becoming the connective tissue for all the unstructured stuff that never fit neatly in a database.
Sure, every product is rushing to bolt on “AI features,” but those sidebars and pop-ups can only see the data inside their own walls. The real power shows up when you wire AI across the mess — the emails, the docs, the meeting notes, the structured and unstructured side by side. That’s where pivot-table-for-words meets pivot-table-for-numbers, and suddenly you’re not staring at silos. You’re staring at the whole picture.
Rob and Justin cut past the hype to show why AI isn’t the star of the show, it’s the glue in the middle. And that’s good news, because the middle is where business actually gets done. Hit play and hear why the future of AI is less wizardry, more wiring — and why that’s exactly what makes it work.
This isn’t another AI think-piece, it’s a full-on data brawl. Copilot is out here plagiarizing Rob’s pivot table crusade while the self-appointed nerd police try to lock down the definition of agentic AI. Meanwhile, thirty years of fantasy football become the unexpected proof that tuning beats buzzwords every single time.
What starts as a slip from Copilot turns into a bigger story about how AI really works. Off-the-shelf tools can sound impressive, but they collapse into clichés when they’re not tuned to the person using them. The difference isn’t just in efficiency, it’s in credibility. Get it right, and AI amplifies your voice. Get it wrong, and you sound like everyone else mailing it in.
Don’t settle for AI that sounds like everyone else. Listen in and hear what happens when tuned workflows collide with real-world stakes.
Pivot tables finally auto-refresh. Humanity wins, but our host Rob Collie is still annoyed. Why? Because he asked for it back in 2007 and got shot down. That little gripe kicks off a bigger conversation: what else in data is overdue for a shake-up?
Copilot might be next. Forget filters. Forget dashboards. Rob put it to the test on his beer-league hockey stats and found himself asking questions faster than any report could keep up. It felt natural, almost too natural.
Then came the twist. Copilot served up an answer that looked perfect… and was completely wrong. If it can fool the guy who built the model, what chance does anyone else have?
Listen in for the laughs, the lessons, and the curveballs of a future where filters may finally be obsolete.
Every campaign has it: that shiny "more reach, lower cost" lever that looks like marketing gold but really just siphons your budget into digital quicksand. We pulled it. The metrics looked fantastic. And that's exactly how we knew we'd been had.
In this episode, Rob breaks down a real-world lesson in false signals, phantom clicks, and why data discipline isn't just consultant-speak—it's your financial survival strategy. We're talking about the bots that sneak in through "partner sites," how they corrupt your retargeting, and the ripple effect that turns good data bad across your entire funnel.
Here's the thing: The real damage isn't the wasted spend. It's what corrupted data does to your decision-making. When you're building your strategy on phantom signals, every "optimization" takes you further from real results.
If you're protecting a budget or leading a team that depends on clean data to drive real business decisions, this episode cuts straight to what matters: spotting the traps before they drain your resources and rebuilding trust in the numbers that actually count.
AI is rewriting the rules of analytics. Copilot can pull answers straight from your semantic model and bypass the dashboard entirely. But for all the tech fireworks, the same old truth holds: communication is still the hardest part. Stakeholders don’t always know what they want, builders don’t always know how to translate it, and requirements docs have never fixed that gap. Copilot just puts the tension in sharper focus.
Rob and Justin dig into why vanishing chat histories aren’t just inconvenient, they erase the most honest record of what stakeholders actually care about. Screenshots and Word docs are a band-aid, not a solution. Persistent, shareable conversations could change the way model developers and business users collaborate, but only if governance and security evolve fast enough to keep up. Along the way, they show why usage data from Copilot queries is miles ahead of click stats on a dashboard and why the story of your data has always hinged on the same thing: people understanding each other.
Dashboards may have set the stage, but conversation is where the real action is. Listen now and see what happens when the chat itself becomes the deliverable.
Two hundred episodes in, and we're done with the warm-up!
Episode 200 finds Rob flying solo and pulling zero punches on the question everyone's quietly asking: what's the future of data work? No anniversary nostalgia here, just uncomfortable truths about AI bootcamps at Starbucks, semantic models going naked, and why being "pretty good" at anything is about to get very complicated. If you think you know where this is all headed, think again.
Rob spent yesterday turning a non-techie real estate agent into an AI power user, and what he saw exceeded anything from the early Power BI days. But here's what nobody's talking about: the invisible barriers, the shifting skill requirements, and why the middle ground might be disappearing faster than anyone realizes. The lines between data work and software work are blurring, structured versus unstructured data is becoming meaningless, and the comfortable assumptions about who does what are about to get stress-tested.
Two hundred episodes of calling it straight, and this one tackles the questions that keep data professionals up at night. Some answers might surprise you. Others might make you uncomfortable. [But you'll know exactly where you stand when the dust settles]
Most of us have been in the trenches long enough to know when something's about to flip the script. And brother, we're standing at the edge of a cliff most data folks don't even see coming.
Rob Collie thought he had Power BI figured out. Then Copilot did something impossible; it cracked a question that should've left it scratching its digital head. But it didn't just answer. It nailed it. That's what we're calling the Dobie Moment—when AI stops being a fancy calculator and starts being genuinely scary-smart.
Here's the thing nobody's talking about, your semantic models aren't just sitting there anymore. They're waking up. And when Rob and Justin break down what happened in this episode, you'll see exactly why that should make you sweat a little.
They're not here to blow smoke. They'll show you the magic, sure, but more importantly, they'll show you where the landmines are buried. Because when AI starts connecting dots you didn't even know existed, confidence and correctness become two very different animals.
Bottom line: The future of data just knocked on your door. You can pretend you didn't hear it, or you can listen to this episode and actually be ready when your models have their own moment of reckoning.
Your call. But don't say we didn't warn you.
AI looks unstoppable… until you hand it a hundred pages of meeting notes. Rob and Justin dig into why context windows and token limits quietly run the show. That “million-token” brag from Google? More like weighing the Titanic in bananas.
From Shakespeare to SharePoint, this episode shows why AI remembers the Roman Empire better than your company history—and why that’s not a bad thing. Rob also introduces Griff, a digital colleague that fires off P3-flavored ideas like it’s had three espressos. It’s practical AI that’s actually fun to use.
Hit play to find out where AI is brilliant, where it falls flat, and how to make it work for you without the hype.
Also on this episode:
Million Token Context Windows? Myth Busted—Limits & Fixes
Back in 2010, Tableau beat smarter tools with a better demo. No brain, all charm and the market loved it. Fast-forward to now: same playbook, new costume. The AI dashboard crowd is selling “natural language BI” with zero semantic model, zero memory, and a whole lot of LinkedIn swagger. In this episode, Rob and Justin revisit why Tableau’s empty-calorie approach won the first round, and how that same mistake is about to flood the AI + BI space all over again.
Turns out, you can still sell snake oil if you call it GenAI. Rob breaks down how an elite MIT course managed to skip LLMs entirely, how a flashy Tableau blog post went viral for connecting a CSV, and why “AI-ready” vendors keep duct-taping chat interfaces onto raw SQL and hoping no one looks under the hood. But the real story? Microsoft is sitting on the most powerful data brain in the game, and if they land the front end, it’s game over.
This isn’t just a history lesson. It’s a blueprint for seeing through the hype and betting on what actually works. If you’re building, buying, or betting on AI tools, listen in before you get dazzled by the demo.
Also on this episode:
Early Experiments in Tableau’s New MCP Service
Let’s say your business runs on sun, sweat, and schedule precision. You’ve got crews in the field, materials that don’t wait, and about 90 minutes to get it right before the product turns into a thousand-pound paperweight. That’s the world Joseph Graziano lives in. He’s the CFO of Quadrant Concrete and also the guy keeping the trucks moving, the forecasts dialed in, and the safety records spotless. Because in the mid-market, you don’t get extra people. You get extra resourceful.
Joseph shares how he helped transform a boots-on-the-ground concrete business into a data-forward operation without fancy titles, inflated budgets, or a fleet of consultants. From field-collected data to real-time cashflow forecasting, he’s found the sweet spot where better reporting leads to smarter, calmer decisions. You’ll also hear why operational transparency isn’t just about ROI, it’s about reducing chaos, building trust, and creating a culture where everyone sees what matters.
If you’re trying to lead your business through complexity without adding complexity, this episode can be your blueprint. Data doesn’t have to be fancy to be powerful. It just has to work. Listen now and see what it looks like when grit meets insight.
It started as a side project. Rob Collie built a Power BI model for his rec league hockey team. Just for fun. Just to see what the data could say. But something weird happened. The dashboards were solid. The data model was solid. But, the users still had questions. And lots of them. And that’s when it clicked: people don’t think in slicers. They think in questions. Natural ones. The kind dashboards rarely anticipate.
In this episode, Rob and Justin Mannhardt didn’t just talk about Microsoft’s Copilot for Power BI. They put it to the test. No tuning. No prep. Just a raw semantic model paired with real questions from actual humans. The result? A glimpse at what happens when the tech finally meets the moment. Copilot isn’t just a gimmick. It understands nuance, handles filters, and points people to the answer without making them dig. And it’s getting better by the day.
This isn’t a future-state conversation. You’ve already done the hard part. Now you can build on it. And if you’ve been wondering when AI will start delivering real value, this is a pretty good place to start.
Also in this episode:
Indy Inline Hockey Dashboards
Inline Analytics Doesn’t Mean What You Suspect it Means, w/Ryan Spahr
Copilot for Power BI
Rethinking the ROI of Dashboards
AI wants your data, but it can't handle the truth . . .
“We’ll just plug our data into ChatGPT.” Sure. Sounds easy. Rob thought so too, right up until he hit token limits, had to install Python, and discovered that even two megabytes of transcripts was too much for the world’s smartest models to handle. In this episode, Rob and Justin break down what happens when you try to use AI on your company’s internal data. Spoiler: it’s a lot more complicated than the vendors make it sound.
From semantic search to retrieval augmented generation (RAG), they unpack why the dream of “ask AI anything about your business” keeps falling short. You’ll hear why your Power BI model isn’t going anywhere, why structured data still needs old-school engines, and what it really takes to get value from your own information. Somewhere between a cautionary tale and a tech detective story, this one tells it like it is . . . unapologetically.
Run into the same situation? We’d love to hear about it! Give us a shout on LinkedIn and tell us how you overcame the limitations.
For a while, you could pretend AI was still a someday problem. Not anymore. Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt are back, and this time they are tackling Model-Context-Protocol (MCP) and Multi-Agent Systems, two shifts that could finally put an end to the human copy-paste Olympics.
This isn’t about shinier tools. It is about AI that plugs in without the duct tape and starts doing the work without making you babysit. Rob and Justin dig into what’s real, what’s coming, and why "waiting to see" is no longer a strategy.
MCP is being called the USB-C of AI. Multi-Agent Systems are making AI check its own work, so you do not have to. Translation? The gap between "early" and "too late" is closing fast, and the status quo isn’t going to cut it much longer.
If you are tired of the hype but know you can’t sit this one out, this episode is the advice you have been waiting for. So, tune in and enjoy! If you like what you hear, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps new listeners discover the show!
Also in this episode:
The Cybernetic Teammate
Déjà vu Cat | The Matrix
Sakiko Stickley joins Raw Data to share a story that is part inspiration, part revelation, and a whole lot of truth-telling. From the first moment she discovered Power Pivot, Sakiko did not just learn data. She lived it. She rewired reporting systems, survived micromanagers, and navigated the strange realities of big consulting firms, all while quietly proving that one person, one model, and a little bit of DAX can change everything.
In this episode, we get an inside look at how a passion for smarter systems can collide with corporate inertia, what it really feels like to challenge the status quo, and why Sakiko believes AI could someday outperform human leadership, not just in data crunching but in ethics and decision-making too. (Spoiler: She might be right.)
If you have ever felt like a lone voice in a world that clings to inefficient processes, Sakiko’s journey will feel like a kindred spirit calling from across the data universe. Listen in for a conversation filled with hard truths, breakthrough moments, and a reminder that true data people do not just build models. They build better futures.
What’s the value of a long-awaited feature?
Well, that depends. Have you ever tried explaining a fiscal calendar that doesn’t believe in months?
This week, Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt dive into the latest Microsoft Fabric updates, including the long-rumored, almost-mythical custom calendar support in DAX, the highly requested user-defined functions, and the Copilot expansion that might finally be worth the hype. These updates aren’t just bells and whistles; they’re fixes to problems that have been quietly driving your team up the wall for a decade.
And while the tech is cool, the real story is what it unlocks for the people trying to build reliable reporting, reuse their logic across models, and stop wrestling with edge cases in Excel at 10 p.m.
If you’ve ever been told, “that’s just how it works,” this episode is a breath of fresh air, and a reminder that progress doesn’t always come with a parade. Sometimes it shows up in patch notes.
What happens when you hand off your Power BI output to ChatGPT and ask it to make sense of your world? You might be surprised. This week, Rob shares a deeply personal use case. One that ties together two major themes we've been exploring:
- Gen AI is reshaping the way we think about dashboards.
- To get real value out of AI, you need more than just data. You need metadata.
And yes, that kind of metadata—the kind you create in Power BI when you translate raw data into something meaningful.
Along the way, we revisit the old guard of data warehousing. The mighty (and now dusty?) ETL priesthood. And we uncover a delicious little irony about how the future of data looks a lot like its past, just with better tools and smarter questions.
The big twist? We're all ETL now. But the "T" might not mean what you think it does anymore.
Listen now to find out how a few rows of carefully modeled data, a table visual, and one really good AI assistant changed the game. For Rob and, just possibly, for all of us.
Also in this episode: Blind Melon – Change (YouTube)
The Data Warehouse Toolkit
Raw Data Episode - The Human Side of Data: Using Analytics for Personal Well-Being
AI agents are making big waves, but are they the future of business or just another passing trend? In this episode, Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt explore the rise of AI agents, what they actually do, and why the excitement might be a little premature. They unpack the risks, the rewards, and how leaders can navigate the hype with a bit of caution and a lot of curiosity.
Rob and Justin discuss the fine balance between automation and human oversight, tackling questions about when it's smart to embrace AI and when it might be better to pause. They also share thoughts on the current SaaS landscape, where new AI tools are popping up fast and why it pays to be thoughtful before jumping in.
Ultimately, this episode is about finding clarity in a fast-moving space. It's about understanding where AI agents can add real value, where they might introduce unnecessary risk, and why critical thinking still matters. Rob and Justin reflect on the challenges of trusting AI, the dangers of locking into technology too early, and how the best decisions come from balancing curiosity with skepticism. If you're wondering how to separate the genuine innovations from the passing fads and how to be strategic about adopting AI in your business, this conversation is for you.
Listener John sent in a classic question: should you build one all-encompassing data model, or should each part of your business have its own? If you think the answer is black and white, well, welcome to the world of data modeling, where nuance reigns supreme.
Rob and Justin dive deep into the pros, cons, and inevitable mistakes of both approaches. Along the way, they call out the biggest modeling traps, expose the myths that make projects stall, and introduce a revolutionary new acronym: JGS (Just Get Started). Because, spoiler alert, the best data model is the one that actually gets built.
This is an episode you won’t want to miss!
Ever find yourself overthinking a problem until you’ve thought yourself right into a corner? Yeah, we’ve been there too. But what if there was a way to cut through the noise and just know when something is a good idea? Enter Miller’s Theorem, a simple but sneaky-effective thought experiment that’s been kicking around in our conversations for years. It’s the kind of thing that sounds like nonsense at first until it doesn’t.
In this episode, we unpack how a casual visit to a bougie home décor store in Seattle turned into an existential crisis over tariffs, pricing psychology, and whether customers actually care if their overpriced alpaca throw just got 25% more expensive. But it’s not just about economics. It’s about how we make decisions, avoid self-inflicted complexity, and maybe stop outsmarting ourselves into bad choices.
Also on the table: the contrapositive, the dangers of taking political soundbites at face value, and why abolishing the IRS is an idea so catastrophically bad it might actually make the Great Depression look like a mild inconvenience. It’s a wild ride through logic, business, and just enough existential dread to keep things interesting. Listen now, then hope over to LinkedIn and tell us what you think!
Got a topic you would like to have Rob and Justin cover? Join our Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Steering Committee and let us know!
Also in this episode:
Pokerbots, Adware, and Burning Man, w/ Brad Miller & Kai Hankinson
For years, dashboards have been the go-to for business intelligence. Built with the best intentions, loaded with visuals, and meant to empower decision-makers. But are they actually delivering?
A recent Reddit thread raised a tough question: "Has anyone here moved away from dashboards as their main source of insights?"
It’s not the usual “Dashboards are dead” hype. It’s a real challenge from BI pros who build them. The problem?
- Analysts say dashboards can’t keep up with how they really explore data.
- Executives and business users aren’t using them as intended, leading to more ad hoc requests, not fewer.
The result? Dashboards end up underused, misused, or worse, ignored.
In this episode of Raw Data, Rob and Justin cut through the noise and get to the heart of the issue. Are dashboards the problem, or is it how we’re designing and using them? And more importantly, what’s the right way forward?
Also in this episode:
Reddit discussion
Ever sat in a meeting, watching a decision unfold that makes zero sense—bad for business, bad for employees—while the data that should be guiding the way is ignored? You’re not alone. In this solo episode, Rob Collie takes on a question that’s been circling for years: why aren’t more people with a data-driven mindset in leadership positions?
The answer isn’t as simple as “because they should be.” There are deep-rooted reasons why persuasion often wins over precision and why data folks get stuck in support roles instead of calling the shots. But here’s the thing, change is possible. Whether you’re an analyst looking to break into leadership or a decision-maker wondering how to get the most from your data-savvy team, this episode is for you.
Tune in as Rob unpacks the hidden forces at play, the skills that can help data professionals move up the ladder, and why learning the art of influence might be just as important as mastering the numbers.
What happens when you mix fantasy football, data analytics, and a little bit of chaos? You get a conversation that refuses to follow a straight line—but somehow lands exactly where it needs to. Rob Collie welcomes back fantasy football guru Adam Harstad for his third appearance on Raw Data, alongside first-time guests Heather Zimmer and Molly Ferguson, two self-proclaimed newcomers who are anything but casual. They dive into the unexpected ways fantasy football rewires your brain, from strategic obsession to the unshakable belief that your lucky jersey actually controls the game.
Adam breaks down the numbers behind the game—how expected points added (EPA) became the gold standard of football analytics and why your gut feeling about a "bad matchup" might just be a statistical illusion. Meanwhile, Heather and Molly prove that fantasy football isn’t just a game; it’s a full-blown data-driven lifestyle. Whether it’s crunching Power BI models for next season or convincing family members to clear out during game time, they’ve gone all-in—and they’re not looking back.
But beyond the spreadsheets and the smack talk, this episode is about something bigger: the sheer joy of unexpected obsessions. Whether you’re in it for the data, the competition, or just the chance to prove someone wrong (we see you, Heather), fantasy football is a reminder that the best things in life are the ones you never saw coming.
Also in this episode:
Guide to EPA
Protect the Spots with NO Bulletholes, w/ Adam Harstad
Epistemic Path Dependency, w/ Adam Harstad
What if we told you that, before Power BI, most of the money spent on data projects didn’t go where you thought it did? In this episode, Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt peel back the layers of inefficiency, miscommunication, and just plain bad luck that have haunted data projects for decades. Spoiler: it’s not all doom and gloom. Some of those old headaches are finally getting the boot, thanks to tools like Power BI and the rise of generative AI.
Rob and Justin take an honest look at how data projects have changed over the years, sharing hard-earned lessons and surprising insights from their time in the trenches. They reflect on the glacial pace of old-school BI, how Power BI changed the game, and why AI might be the next big shift.
If you’ve ever wondered why your pre-Power BI data project cost more than a new car, this episode has the answers (and maybe a little therapy). Listen now for insights, laughs, and a sneak peek at the not-so-distant future of data.
As always, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite platform or share the link with a friend to help new listeners find us.
Rob's Visual Aid
Gil Raviv has spent years shaping how we use data. From his early days at Microsoft, where he played a key role in developing Power Query, to his work refining how dashboards serve their users, Gil’s career is a masterclass in making data tools both practical and powerful.
In this episode, we sit down with Gil to dig into why usage data is the missing ingredient for truly effective BI. He explains how understanding what users do with your dashboards can completely change the way you design and deliver them. We also talk about his journey through the world of business intelligence, the lessons he learned along the way, and why he’s so passionate about building tools that meet people where they are.
Whether you’re a Power BI power user or just starting to think about how data fits into your business, Gil’s insights will get you thinking differently.
The Spirit of “Why Not” with Bob Pop Collie The Life of a WW2 Navy Pilot Cadet (Bonus), w/ Bob Pop Collie
The world of data technology moves in fascinating ways, and we're excited to have Microsoft MVPs Ed Hansberry and Kristyna Ferris join Justin to unpack what's really happening. This conversation is all about understanding the technologies that are reshaping how we work and think about data.
Microsoft Fabric has been a hot topic, and for good reason. Is it the breakthrough platform everyone's talking about, or are there nuances that aren't making headlines? Ed and Kristyna bring their hands-on experience to share what they've learned—the moments of excitement, the unexpected challenges, and the real potential they see.
Artificial intelligence continues to be a transformative force. We're not just talking about theoretical possibilities, but how AI is actually changing the way data professionals approach problems. What does this mean for teams, for individual careers, for the way we think about technology?
Tune in to find out!
The world’s moving fast, sometimes too fast. Whether it’s AI taking over ad campaigns, fake LinkedIn profiles popping up, or the healthcare system extracting more than it gives, the threads connecting our modern chaos are all too clear. Misaligned incentives and unchecked technologies are reshaping industries, culture, and even how we trust each other. Progress can be exciting, but it’s also raising some tough questions: Are we losing our humanity in the race to optimize everything?
Take Coca-Cola, the apex predator of branding. This holiday season, they swapped their usual creative mastery for AI-generated ads, and people noticed. The results weren’t just underwhelming; they were unsettling. It’s a perfect example of what happens when we try to replicate the human touch with machines that aren’t there yet. But this isn’t just about Coke. It’s about a broader trend of trading quality for convenience and innovation for cost-cutting—and the ripple effects it has on culture, trust, and livelihoods.
This week, we’re unpacking the tension between innovation and integrity, exploring how businesses, governments, and individuals can find a better balance. From the rise of fake AI personas to headlights designed to cheat brightness tests, we’ll dig into what these examples say about the systems we rely on and what happens when those systems fail us. It’s a wild ride, but one thing’s for sure: the way forward has to be more thoughtful than the path that got us here.
The AI revolution is here, and if you’re in the data space, you’re sitting in the best seat in the house—whether it feels that way yet or not. Rob takes you on a straight-talking journey through why our industry isn’t just surviving but thriving in this moment of upheaval. Forget the hype and the fearmongering; this is about recognizing the unique position we’re in to expand into unmet demand. It’s not just about keeping our jobs—it’s about making them better, more impactful, and yes, more secure.
Here’s the deal: this isn’t a time to coast. The same tools that can help us shine also require us to step up and adapt. Rob breaks down how the drudge work that used to define so many roles has been swept away by tools like Power BI—and why that’s not a threat but a gift. The value isn’t in the grind; it’s in the thinking. The problem-solving. The expertise. If you’re clinging to old ways, you’re missing the whole point of what’s happening right now.
Listen now to hear why this moment is one of the biggest opportunities our industry has ever seen. Rob unpacks how unmet demand is changing the game, why our skills matter more than ever, and what it takes to not just ride the wave but come out ahead. Don’t miss it.
Rob and Justin are back, catching up after a short break with an episode that’s part big ideas, part funny stories, and full of surprises.
They kick things off with the Crutches Paradox. Their take on why we hang onto things we’ll probably never use, “just in case.” From there, the conversation moves into all kinds of unexpected territory: why politeness might not matter when working with ChatGPT, the infamous New Coke conspiracy theory from the 80s, and why some of the world’s top software engineers just don’t seem too concerned about AI.
Rob even shares a few personal moments, including how his old Pontiac Bonneville managed to become a legend among tow truck drivers. Between the laughs and the thought-provoking moments, this grab bag episode has a little something for everyone.
Whether you’re here to explore big questions or just enjoy a good story, this one will keep you hooked from start to finish. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.
This week on Raw Data, Justin’s flying solo and catching up with Brian Julius, a true data veteran with a unique journey from government work to AI exploration. Brian’s path has been anything but typical. Starting in high-stakes federal roles, he later moved into management; only to find himself pulled back to his roots in hands-on analytics, just as AI started turning the industry on its head.
Brian digs into the moments that shaped his career and how curiosity led him back to data. Now, he’s diving into AI, pushing the tools to see how far they can go, and discovering where human intuition still has the edge. In this conversation, he and Justin explore what it means to keep evolving in a field that doesn’t stand still, and why staying open and curious might just be the most important skill.
With Rob away this week, Justin and Brian take a deeper dive into what it’s like to adapt to constant change, and why there’s more to data than just knowing the latest tools. It’s an honest, down-to-earth look at the power of a lifelong learner’s mindset in an era of rapid transformation.
Also in this episode:
DAX/ChatGPT
Ideogram
Rob Collie records his final episode from the cozy, sound-dampened basement studio where over 170 Raw Data conversations have taken place. With moving boxes waiting to be loaded onto a truck bound for Seattle, Rob reflects on his unexpected 15-year journey in the Midwest—an adventure filled with personal challenges, growth, and life lessons that only make sense in hindsight. What started as a sudden and overwhelming shift became a series of hard-earned lessons that shaped not just his career but his entire outlook on life.
In this episode, Rob explores the universal nature of those journeys where we step away from the familiar, confront unexpected challenges, and return changed. It’s not about grand, heroic feats but about navigating uncertainty, learning as you go, and finding meaning in what’s hard. Rob shares candid moments of struggle, success, and everything in between, offering reflections on fear, growth, and the reality of being human. This isn't a story of perfection, it’s a journey full of wrong turns, lessons learned the hard way, and the humility that comes from embracing both the light and dark sides along the way.
Don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new users find us.
In this episode, Rob Collie and Justin break down life lessons learned from a simple tool: the Green Biscuit puck. It’s a perfect example of how resilience sometimes beats prevention—because you can’t avoid every bump in the road, but you can adapt and keep moving forward. That same idea applies to AI and Power BI, where working with messy, real-world data is part of the process. Rob and Justin draw easy parallels between solving problems on the ice and in business, making complex topics feel less stuffy and refreshingly practical.
When it comes to adopting AI, Rob and Justin talk about how it’s not a magic fix but a friendly co-pilot, ready to help with everything from writing tasks to brainstorming. The goal isn’t necessarily perfection. Sometimes it’s simply getting off the starting line. Their advice? Don't overthink it. Take that first step, see where it leads, and let AI surprise you. Tools like ChatGPT can boost productivity, helping you overcome the blank-page syndrome.
Be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform for more great episodes on data, tech, and the unexpected lessons hiding in everyday experiences.
This week Rob shares his disdain for CFL light bulbs, but it's not necessarily about light bulbs here! It's more of an analogy as to why the status quo weighs absolutely nothing. Something better and disruptive came along, and now it's everywhere. We barely even remember the transition, because the new "light bulb" is far superior to what was previously the standard!
In this episode, Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt step onto the data gridiron to test if AI can tackle the complexities of fantasy football data. Rob starts with a Power Query puzzle, full of messy stats, player names, and tricky injury codes—solving it manually in over 30 steps. But can ChatGPT, with Justin’s guidance, run the same play and simplify fantasy football data management?
Justin and ChatGPT take their shot at transforming the chaos into organized data. While ChatGPT makes some impressive moves, there are a few fumbles that leave us wondering—can AI truly handle the ever-changing landscape of fantasy football stats?
Want to know how this battle played out? Tune in to find out if AI has what it takes to streamline your fantasy football data or if human instincts still win the day.
Here is the companion Blog Post to follow along - Can AI Write an M Script When it Requires Inspiration? Rob Collie Squares Off Versus ChatGPT
Have you noticed the phrase "Dashboards Are Dead" popping up on LinkedIn? It's catchy, provocative, and designed to grab your attention. But is there any truth to it, or is it just another clickbait strategy?
In this episode, Rob Collie dives into the psychology behind these viral statements and why they get under our skin. While dashboards aren’t going anywhere, there is a shift happening. Generative AI and chatbot interfaces are set to change how we interact with dashboards, making it easier to find, use, and even build them on the fly. But that doesn’t mean dashboards are obsolete—far from it. Visuals still offer unparalleled insights that AI simply can’t replicate...yet.
Listen in as we break down the manipulative tactics behind "Dashboards Are Dead" and explore the exciting future of dashboard design in a world enhanced by AI.
In this episode, Rob Collie talks about how anyone can learn to "predict the future"—not with superpowers, but with a normal ability we all have. Rob shares his own stories of seeing big changes coming, like the rise of Power Pivot and the early signs of COVID-19. It’s not about being right all the time, but about recognizing when something big is shifting and knowing how to act on it.
One of the biggest lessons here? The status quo isn’t permanent. Rob’s decision to start P3 Adaptive came from trusting what he was seeing, even when others didn’t. His story is proof that when you’re willing to trust your gut and take action, amazing things can happen.
With AI on the rise, that same approach matters more than ever. The world is changing fast, and those who can adapt will thrive. Tune in to hear how you can tap into your own ability to spot shifts and make smart decisions with confidence.
And, as always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new users find us!
In this episode, Rob and Justin explore how AI is making waves not just in tech-heavy industries but in everyday businesses like construction and manufacturing. They talk about how AI tools can help streamline processes, create custom solutions, and make even the most hands-on industries run smoother and more efficiently.
They dive into the common worry that AI will replace jobs, but they quickly turn that idea around. Instead of taking jobs away, AI is stepping in to handle repetitive tasks, allowing employees to focus on the big-picture work that sparks innovation and growth. It's not about replacing people—it’s about enhancing what they do best.
Rob and Justin also make the case that AI isn’t out of reach, even for companies that don’t see themselves as tech-savvy. With tools like Power BI and the rise of generative AI, businesses of all sizes can use AI to improve their operations without a major overhaul. AI is becoming more accessible, and it's something that can make a real difference no matter your industry.
Be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us!
Ever think about how data can solve real-world problems? Rob and Justin are here to break it down! They’re diving into how data analytics is changing the game in industries like manufacturing, agriculture, and construction—where the work is hands-on, and the results matter. From managing logistics to cutting downtime and optimizing inventory, they show how data is becoming the go-to tool for getting things done.
Justin shares a personal "aha!" moment from his days in manufacturing, where stepping out of the office and onto the floor opened his eyes to data gaps you just can't catch from behind a desk. Rob also reflects on his time in construction and how those real-world experiences shaped his view of business today.
Rob and Justin keep it real, cutting through the noise to show how understanding the world behind the numbers is the key to solving real problems.
Enjoyed the conversation? Leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help us reach more listeners!
Think farming and data don’t mix? Think again! In this episode, Paul Grissom from Pacific Ag Rentals (PAR) brings the heat, showing how data is shaking things up in agriculture. From slashing manual work to making on-the-spot decisions with real-time insights, Paul shares how technology is helping PAR not just keep up, but thrive. Whether you're a data geek or just curious about how tech is fueling growth in unexpected ways, this episode is a fun, eye-opening ride into the future of farming.
Paul doesn’t hold back—he shares an honest take on what it’s like to bring data into a hands-on industry like agriculture. You’ll hear how PAR is using data to optimize equipment, streamline their operations, and seriously level up their business. And the best part? It’s not just about crunching numbers; it’s about seeing real growth and making smarter moves every day. If you think data is only for tech companies, Paul's story will change your mind—and maybe even get you excited about what data can do for your business.
What makes this episode a must-listen? Paul’s down-to-earth vibe and no-fluff approach. He breaks it all down so anyone can understand how data is making a real-world impact, even in an industry as hands-on as farming. It’s the kind of story that shows how a little tech can go a long way, no matter what field you’re in. If you’re looking for inspiration on how data can fuel growth in your own world, this is the episode for you!
Loved what you heard? Let us know! Leave a review and tell us what you think—your feedback helps us bring you more awesome stories like Paul’s, packed with insights you can use right now.
Is the Midmarket Secretly Winning with the Microsoft Data Platform?
In this episode, host Rob Collie explores a surprising quirk in how Microsoft's powerful data tools like Power BI and Fabric are being used.
It turns out that midsize companies - not big enterprises - are actually getting the most bang for their buck from these game-changing data platforms. The episode explains how the speed and affordability of the new Microsoft tools give smaller organizations a real advantage.
Rob also shares an unexpected lesson he's recently uncovered through his own personal analytics projects. Even with just two basic data points per player, he was able to unlock a crazy amount of useful insights and stories. It just goes to show the hidden richness that can be found in even the most simple datasets. Check out the Hockey Dashboard referenced!
So tune in to find out how a "bathtub" of data can hold an "ocean" of information - plus hear about the midmarket's secret winning strategy. It's an episode you won’t want to miss!
Subscribe now for new episodes every week, packed with practical data insights!
Join us for a down-to-earth chat with Microsoft’s Scott Sewell, a guy who’s seen it all when it comes to the crossroads of tech, business, and just being human. Scott’s got a front-row seat to how empathy—yeah, that often-overlooked human quality—is actually a game-changer in today’s tech-driven world. We talk about why understanding what makes people tick isn’t just good for the soul, it’s critical for delivering solutions that really hit the mark.
But let’s get real: no one loves the drudge work, and Scott’s here to tell us why those days are numbered. We dig into how AI, especially within the Microsoft Fabric and Dynamics world, is cutting out the busy work that bogs us down. Imagine freeing up your time to focus on the stuff that truly matters—Scott shows us how it’s not just possible, it’s happening right now.
Scott’s got some great stories up his sleeve, too, about how embracing AI isn’t just a cool thing to do—it’s essential if you want to keep up. Whether it’s getting rid of those tedious manual tasks or unlocking insights that were once out of reach, Scott makes it clear: the clock’s ticking on drudge work, and the future is all about working smarter, not harder.
So, if you’re ready to hear how empathy and AI can transform your business (and your day-to-day), tune in. Scott’s insights will have you rethinking what’s possible—and why the mundane should be left in the dust.
If you enjoyed this episode, we'd love for you to leave a review! Your feedback helps us reach more listeners who are looking to transform their business with data, tech, and a bit of empathy. Plus, it helps new listeners discover the show so they can join in on the conversation.
We're still buzzing with excitement over here at P3 Adaptive about Microsoft Fabric and this week, Rob and Justin take a look at some client use cases. The gist of it? This tool is seriously shaking things up for our clients in the best way possible.
The P3 Adaptive team has been playing around with Fabric, and let me tell you, it's a game-changer. It's like giving your data superpowers - speeding things up, putting more control in users' hands, and tackling those pesky data hurdles.
We're seeing companies out there not just dipping their toes in but really diving deep with Fabric. They're zeroing in on specific pain points and watching Fabric work its magic. The cool part? Teams are becoming data ninjas on their own, without always having to run to the BI department for help. It's all about exploring data your way and making smarter decisions, faster.
The impact of Fabric isn't just hype - it's real and it's happening now. Across different industries, we're seeing Fabric turn data challenges into opportunities. Teams that used to struggle with data are now working through it smoothly. Companies are not only handling their data more efficiently but are also uncovering insights they never knew existed. It's like watching businesses unlock a whole new level of data mastery, and the results are seriously impressive. Fabric is proving that when it comes to data, the future isn't just bright - it's already here and making waves.
Want to stay in the loop on all things Fabric and data innovation? Don't miss out on our future episodes! Subscribe now and get the latest insights, tips, and success stories delivered straight to your inbox.
Ever feel like everyone's got an opinion on AI these days? Rob and Justin sure do, and in this episode of Raw Data, they're not afraid to call it as they see it.
Fresh off Rob's solo deep dive into AI, they sit down to unpack the good, the bad, and the overhyped in the world of artificial intelligence. No jargon, no buzzwords - just straight talk about what AI can (and can't) do.
From chatbots that sound eerily human to the reality of AI "hallucinations," Rob and Justin break it all down in a way that actually makes sense. They're not here to sell you on AI being the next big thing or convince you it's all smoke and mirrors. Instead, they offer a refreshingly honest take on where AI shines and where it falls flat.
Want to know how AI might change your job? Rob and Justin dig into real-world examples, from call centers to coding. Power BI folks, there's something in here for you too - turns out AI might be a game-changer for some tasks, but it's not gunning for your job just yet.
By the end of the episode, you'll have a clearer picture of what AI means for you, your work, and the world at large. No tech degree required - just bring your curiosity and maybe a healthy dose of skepticism.
Got thoughts on AI? Rob and Justin want to hear them. Join the Raw Data Steering Committee on LinkedIn to be part of the conversation!
Dive into the world of manufacturing where data meets decision-making with Madison Brooks, an expert from P3 Adaptive who brings her chemical engineering and industry experience to the forefront. This episode zeroes in on why the manufacturing sector is the ideal ground for leveraging Power BI and Power Apps, tools that transform raw data into actionable insights and streamlined processes. Madison discusses the integration challenges and triumphs, illustrating how these technologies drive efficiency and innovation in manufacturing operations.
Throughout the discussion, Madison provides practical examples from her extensive background, demonstrating how Power BI and Power Apps optimize everything from production lines to inventory management. She highlights specific case studies where these tools have enabled manufacturers to pivot quickly, reduce waste, and better understand their operational dynamics through enhanced data visualization and application development.
For professionals in the manufacturing industry or those exploring how to enhance operational efficiencies with technology, this episode offers invaluable insights. Madison breaks down complex tech solutions into understandable and implementable strategies that can profoundly impact business outcomes in Manufacturing Data Analytics.
Listen now and discover how you can transform your manufacturing operations. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast for ongoing episodes where we simplify the complex, through down-to-earth conversations about data, tech, and the real business impact.
Today we are coming at you a day early for a timely bonus episode with Rob Collie diving deep into the digital disruption that shook the world: The Great CrowdStrike Hiccup of 2024. Picture this: a day when the antivirus behemoth stumbled, and the digital realm felt the shockwaves, akin to a #VALUE! error in your perfectly tuned DAX formula—but on a colossal, global scale.
Before you start placing the blame on IT, let’s take a step back to see the broader view. This incident with CrowdStrike, while jarring, underscores the exceptional resilience typically woven into our digital fabric. Consider it the outlier in your data set that highlights how well everything else aligns. Every day, countless professionals from coders to IT support keep our digital infrastructure running as smoothly as a finely tuned Power Query.
The key lesson from this event? Our digital networks are sturdier than they appear, much like a robust pivot table equipped with slicers. Despite the hiccup, the swift response from tech teams worldwide to rectify the issue was nothing short of remarkable. It's a nod to the everyday heroes in tech who ensure that our systems run without a hitch. So, the next time you see that meme mocking "the other side," remember, we’re all part of the same intricate data model of life.
And, don’t worry, we are still on track for a full-length release tomorrow. Be sure to tune in then when we welcome special guest Madison Brooks to share some behind-the-scenes insight on Power BI, Power Apps, and the manufacturing industry!
It's time to dive back into the wild world of AI with Rob Collie. Get ready to cut through the hype and uncover the real deal on artificial intelligence.
In today’s episode, Rob examines the varied faces of AI, from its potential to revolutionize industries with breakthrough innovations to its ability to streamline our daily activities and make routine tasks more efficient. Have you ever wondered how AI might be influencing your life without you even noticing? Rob brings these abstract concepts down to earth. He provides a fresh perspective on how AI operates silently yet significantly in the background of our daily interactions and decision-making processes.
You'll leave this episode with a clearer understanding of how to interact with AI effectively, recognizing its benefits while being mindful of its limitations. Rob's insights will help you navigate the AI landscape with confidence, armed with the knowledge to identify genuine opportunities and avoid common traps.
Don't miss out on your weekly dose of tech reality! Subscribe to Raw Data on your favorite podcast platform. Stay ahead of the curve and discover how technology is reshaping our world!
This week we're talking with Power BI MVP Kristyna Ferris about flipping the script on how we look at business data. She has some cool ideas about viewing things from the outside that might change how you think about your company's data.
Kristyna walks us through her approach, showing how she used Power BI to get a bird's eye view of an organization It's eye-opening - like she's put her company under a giant microscope, revealing all sorts of connections and patterns hiding in plain sight. She catches all sorts of interesting things, from what customers are really up to, to where things are getting gummed up in operations.
But here's the kicker - Kristyna doesn't just sit there admiring the view. She takes what she sees and makes real changes. She'll run through some examples of how this outside-in perspective led to actual improvements. We're talking streamlined processes, new market opportunities - the whole nine yards.
The best part? Kristyna's figured out how to get everyone else on board with this way of thinking. She's got some great tips for creating a culture where people are itching to step back and look at the big picture. It's about building a team that's always on the lookout for the next big "aha!" moment.
If you're tired of staring at the same old dashboards and want to see your business in a whole new light, you'll want to tune in. And be sure to hit subscribe for new weekly content. And remember, sometimes, you've gotta step outside to really see what's going on inside.
Dive into an intriguing exploration with Shawn Rogers, CEO of BARC US, as we delve into whether Power BI is a stepping stone to mastering Artificial Intelligence (AI) and Machine Learning (ML), or if it’s the other way around. This episode isn’t just about technology—it’s a deep dive into the symbiotic relationship between business intelligence tools and the latest advancements in AI.
With his extensive background in analytics and business intelligence, Shawn unravels how Power BI can serve as both a platform leveraging AI capabilities and a beneficiary of AI-driven enhancements. He discusses the dynamic interplay where AI not only complements but also extends the functionalities of Power BI, transforming how businesses interpret and act on data. Listeners will gain a nuanced understanding of how to strategically prepare their Power BI setups to both utilize and enhance AI technologies.
Tune in and see firsthand how Power BI and AI are reshaping the analytics landscape together. Whether you're deep into data or just starting to see its potential impact on your business, Shawn Rogers brings a wealth of expertise that bridges the technical with the practical.
Are you looking for a podcast that cuts through the noise? Raw Data by P3 Adaptive breaks down complex data topics into business value you can use. From business intelligence and dashboards to AI and digital transformation, we make it simple and relatable. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite platform!
Last week, Rob talked about his personal use Power BI Model for tracking his wife's changes in medicine and symptoms. This week, Rob and Justin explore a bit more about this model, and its readiness for AI and Machine Learning - and discuss how this readiness factor applies to other PBI models in business!
This week’s Raw Data Podcast features a thoughtful discourse with host Rob Collie, who shares how his expertise in data analytics plays a crucial role far beyond the confines of office walls. Rob discusses the sophisticated data model he has developed to manage the health of a family member, detailing the careful balance of medication, symptoms, and environmental influences that the model helps orchestrate.
As Rob walks us through the system, he reflects on the transformative impact that this data model has had on their lives. It’s a practical example of “analytics nirvana,” where data handling becomes second nature, fully integrated into the rhythm of everyday life. Rob’s story illustrates the seamless intersection of data management and personal care, providing a powerful testimony to the versatility of data analytics.
Join Rob as he delves into how data can not only guide business decisions but also anchor critical personal health strategies. It’s an exploration of how data models can deeply embed themselves into our personal lives, making the management of complex health conditions more navigable. And, as always, if you enjoyed the show, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new users find the show.
Our good friend and Principal PM Manager - Microsoft Fabric and Azure Synapse Spark, Chris Finlan returns to discuss Fabric and Spark and how exactly a Power BI practitioner's skills and background fit into this world!
Dive into this week's episode where we explore the fascinating intersection of technology and creativity with Forrest Brazeal. Forrest, a former software engineer turned tech educator, uses his unique talents in art and music to break down the barriers of traditional tech communication.
This episode features Forrest sharing his journey from coding complex software to crafting educational and engaging content that lights up the tech community. He discusses how artificial intelligence is woven into the fabric of our daily tools, making it essential yet invisible, and gives practical examples that bring this technology to life for listeners of all backgrounds.
Forrest also takes us behind the scenes of his creative process. Whether it’s sketching out a cartoon that simplifies cloud computing or composing a catchy tune about network security, his methods are as effective as they are enjoyable. It’s a fresh take on tech education that proves learning about technology doesn’t have to be daunting—it can actually be a lot of fun.
Intrigued by the blend of tech and creativity? Subscribe to The Raw Data Podcast on your favorite podcast platform for new content on data, tech, and their business impacts delivered to your inbox every week.
Good Tech Things The AI Cartoon - Pile of Complexity
On this episode Rob and Justin sit down with Miguel Myers, Principal Program Manager for Power BI at Microsoft, who plays a pivotal role in overseeing core visuals and the report experience in Power BI. Together, they explore how Miguel is steering Power BI to cater to both new users and data experts alike.
Miguel shares his intricate strategies for balancing the dual objectives of simplicity and robust functionality within Power BI. He details the collaborative efforts that bring these visions to life, highlighting how his team engages with various departments across Microsoft to ensure that every update to Power BI is deeply informed by user feedback. This integration of real-world insights is critical in maintaining Power BI’s position as a leading tool in data visualization, making complex data analysis more accessible and impactful for all users.
This episode provides a deep dive into the innovative strategies Miguel employs to make Power BI more intuitive and efficient, underscoring his dedication to enhancing the user experience.
And, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us!
In this episode, we unpack the 'Faucets First' philosophy, a cornerstone of how we approach data projects at P3 Adaptive. Imagine bypassing complex infrastructures and instead, using a straightforward method that brings immediate results and clarity. It's about being agile, practical, and impactful right from the start.
Join us as we explore how modern tools, especially from Microsoft, enable this transformative approach, moving away from the traditional, cumbersome methods. We'll dive into real-life applications and discuss the dramatic improvements in speed and efficiency it brings to data projects.
With exciting guests like Miguel Myers and Chris Finlan from Microsoft, viral comic creator Forrest Brazeal, and industry veteran Shawn Rogers lined up, you won’t want to miss an episode! Subscribe now on your favorite podcast platform for new content delivered weekly!
In this episode, join Rob as he navigates two significant topics that are shaping the landscape of modern business. In this solo episode, Rob reflects on the dynamic journey of P3 Adaptive, discussing our recent transition into a new growth era propelled by evolving market conditions and internal strategies. He delves into the intricacies of sustaining and fostering this growth, sharing the challenges and strategic decisions that define our path forward. Additionally, Rob has a bit of a Mea Culpa to share about his previous understanding of the Parquet file format and the comparison between Direct Lake and Import Mode in Power BI.
The conversation then shifts to a critical development in employment law. Rob unpacks the recent FTC ruling that renders non-compete agreements illegal, exploring its broad implications across various industries, from tech to professional services. He sheds light on how P3 Adaptive uses non-solicitation agreements to safeguard client relationships, emphasizing the balance between competitive edge and ethical practices.
Love what you’re hearing? Make sure you don’t miss an episode by subscribing to The Raw Data Podcast on your favorite podcast platform!
Also in this episode:
Direct Lake VS Import Mode in PBI
Dive into this episode where we're unraveling the threads of data analytics like never before. This week, we're zeroing in on the seismic shifts in technology that are reshaping our understanding and use of data. Imagine stepping into a world where data isn't just numbers, but the lifeblood that pushes businesses forward.
We’re going to take a deep dive into semantic models. Once confined to back-end operations and report generation, these models are stepping into the limelight, becoming powerhouse tools for strategic decision-making. We’re not just talking about the mechanics—we’re exploring how these developments touch everything in the business world and open up a world of possibilities you might never have considered.
Plus, here’s your chance to steer the ship: join our LinkedIn steering committee. It’s your chance to propose topics, suggest guests, and help us chart the course toward the most pressing issues and innovative ideas in data analytics. Your voice can help direct our journey, bringing fresh perspectives to the table.
And, as always, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us!
P3 NCAA March Madness
This week we're diving into the heart of Microsoft Fabric, armed with fresh insights from our team of experts -- Will Gillingham, Mark Beedle, and Chris Haas who've just returned from the conference. These veterans in SQL and Power BI share their firsthand experiences and dissect the potential of Microsoft’s evolving data architecture.
Together, they'll explore crucial questions around Microsoft Fabric's capabilities and implications: What exactly is it? How does it shift our traditional approaches to data management? Our experts will simplify these complex topics, offering clear, actionable insights for both technical professionals and strategic decision-makers.
And if you enjoyed this episode, don’t stop here! Explore more with our detailed Fabric webinar and browse our comprehensive Microsoft Fabric FAQ for additional insights. Remember to subscribe and join the fun—get fresh, exciting episodes loaded with insights delivered straight to your feed every week!
Navigating the world of AI can sometimes feel like you're trying to solve a puzzle with half the pieces missing. That's where, in this episode, Rob and Justin come in, offering a helping hand with their down-to-earth framework designed to uncover the real-world benefits of AI for businesses. They’ll guide you through the practical journey of assessing roles, tasks, and workflows to spotlight where AI can genuinely lend a hand. Their approach is all about making the concept of AI more approachable, helping you differentiate the practical uses from the buzzword-filled fantasies.
In this enlightening episode, they cover essential ground, from understanding the implications of decisions made without full information to distinguishing tasks that could really benefit from AI's touch, like optimizing gas delivery routes. Plus, they introduce the "AI sniff test" to help identify processes that are ripe for an AI upgrade. This detailed exploration is aimed at giving you the clarity to spot AI opportunities that are custom-fit for your business's unique needs, whether you're just dipping your toes into AI waters or looking to dive deeper.
Rob and Justin are essentially extending an invitation to stop wondering "What if?" about AI and start exploring "What can be?" Their friendly guidance demystifies the process, making AI seem less like a distant dream and more like a tangible tool within your reach. For anyone curious about integrating AI into their business but unsure where to start, this episode promises to be an eye-opener, turning curiosity into actionable insight.
And, as always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help other users find us and hit subscribe for new content delivered weekly.
Framework for Spotting Legitimate AI Use Cases PDF
Dive into the depths of AI with Rob and Justin in our latest episode where we peel back the layers of AI's current facade. In this compelling discussion, we take a critical look at the hyped-up narratives surrounding artificial intelligence, focusing on a crucial issue at its core: the "hallucination problem." Rob and Justin navigate through the intriguing landscape of AI advancements, debunking myths and uncovering the reality behind AI's ability to produce outputs that, while often impressive, can lead to misleading and incorrect conclusions. This episode promises to enlighten you with a fresh perspective on AI, challenging the status quo and urging listeners to question what lies beyond the surface of this technology's glittering promise.
But it's not all critique and caution; our hosts also delve into the implications of AI's limitations for businesses and technologists alike, fostering a dialogue on how we can navigate this evolving landscape with both optimism and pragmatism. "Hallucination" is a Fancy Word for Being Wrong is more than just a critique; it's a journey to understanding the nuances of AI, encouraging listeners to embrace the complexity of this revolutionary technology.
And as always, if you enjoyed this episode be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us. Also, click subscribe for new content delivered weekly!
Also in this episode:
The Manhattan Project
Midjourney
Everyone talks about digital transformation, but it seems like no one really explains what it means... until now. In today's episode, Rob and Justin dive deep to cut through the buzzwords and lay out the reality. They're tackling why digital transformation isn't about making huge, instant changes but rather about the smart, subtle tweaks in areas that usually get ignored but badly need a digital lift. They dive into how leveraging tools like the Power Platform can spark significant improvements, showing that it's the small changes that can really boost efficiency and smooth out your workflow.
Ever found yourself wondering how to translate all the chatter about digital evolution into actionable steps? That's exactly what Rob and Justin are unpacking. They're guiding you through how minor, yet clever adjustments can transform your processes. It's all about enhancing the routine, one step at a time.
And, as always, if you enjoyed the episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Rob Collie (00:00): Hello, friends. In today's episode, Justin and I demystify what is meant by the phrase digital transformation. Phrases like that are one of my least favorite things. Why do I say that? Well, these are phrases that get used a lot. They cast a big shadow. You encounter them almost anywhere you go. That's fine by itself. But in the case of digital transformation, that massive shadow is multiplied by no one understanding what it actually means.
(00:30): Now earlier in my career, I used to be really intimidated by things like this. Everyone seems to know what this means because they're using it all the time. I don't know what it means, so should I just pretend and play along like everyone else? But at some point, many years ago, I had this moment where I realized that the Emperor has no clothes. It almost never has clothes. Now when I encounter phrases like this, instead of being like paralyzed or intimidated, I instead start working in my own definition and this process takes time. I've been picking apart and stewing on the definition of digital transformation now for probably the better part of a year plus. Somewhere along the way in that process, I realized that we at P3 are doing quite a bit of digital transformation work, I just hadn't realized it yet because I didn't have a good enough definition.
(01:18): Lately, I've been noticing that my definition for digital transformation has reached a steady state. It's not changing over time anymore, which tends to be my signal that I've arrived at a definition that works. Now seemed like a good time to sit down and compare notes with Justin, who's been following his own parallel process of arriving at a definition. I'm very pleased with where we landed. A practical and specific definition that can be reduced to practice with an almost paint-by-numbers type of approach.
(01:47): If you asked someone for a definition of something like digital transformation, and by the time they're done giving you their definition, you can't practically boil that down to what it means for you, that's not a problem with you, that's a problem with the definition. A lot of times, people's definitions for terms like this are almost like deliberately vague, as a means of projecting power, as a means of actually controlling you. You'll get a lot of definitions that are engineered to sound smart, engineered to sound authoritative, but not engineered to provide anything resembling clarity. Because if you sound smart, and you sound authoritative but you leave your audience hungry, you create a feeling of dependency. Folks, I just think that's yucky. That's just gross.
(02:35): To show you what I mean, I just ran the Google search, "What does digital transformation mean?" The very top hit, enterprisersproject.com, defines digital transformation as "the integration of digital technology into all areas of a business resulting in fundamental changes to help businesses operate in how they deliver value to customers." Did that clear it up? Nope. Boiling that one down, it sounds a lot like you should use computers and use them to make changes. But it sounds smart, sounds authoritative.
(03:06): Here's the second result from our old favorite, McKinsey. McKinsey defines digital transformation as "the process of developing organizational and technology based capabilities that allow a company to continuously improve its customer experience and lower its unit costs, and over time sustain a competitive advantage." All right, so that one sounds like McKinsey is almost starting with that original definition and adding additional value to it. They're saying use computers to improve, and to make money, and to compete. If you have $1 million to spend, you can get advice like that.
(03:43): All right, with those two definitions, we don't even need an episode. We can just skip it? Because everyone knows exactly what they're talking about. These are the top two hits on Google, folks. Useless. Part of the reason these definitions are useless, again, is because they're designed to be useless. But I also think though, that a lot of times you hear definitions like this is because the people writing them actually cannot boil them down. By the time you come up with a truly useful definition, or a framework, or a guide for understanding a topic like this, it almost by its definition, it's not going to sound nearly as sexy, nearly as smart. It's going to sound relatively simple, mundane. But those are the valuable definitions, the ones that we can actually apply, that make a difference in how we actually view our own business.
(04:29): That's what we set out to do in this episode. I think we succeeded, came up with a very practical, applicable definition that you'll never find on McKinsey's website. Let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (04:42): Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Speaker 4 (04:46): This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your cohost, Justin Mannhardt. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (05:12): Justin, one of the things that we really like to do, I really like to do, I think you do as well, is to take a phrase or topic, and demystify it. Especially phrases that you hear repeated over, and over, and over again, and everyone has to pretend that they understand what they mean. But even when they do, they often have very different pictures in their heads.
(05:33): One that I think is due for a treatment, and we've hinted at it once before on this podcast but not with any depth, is digital transformation. What does it mean?
Justin Mannhardt (05:45): What does it mean, what does it not mean, all parts in between.
Rob Collie (05:50): Starting with the places where I hear it. I often hear it in the context of this is something that's already done. The big talking head analysts at places like Gartner-
Justin Mannhardt (06:00): Yeah.
Rob Collie (06:00): Will talk about it like it's in the rearview mirror. "The shift to digital, the pivot to digital has forced the following things," so has forced, it's a past tense thing. Which further underlines the idea that well, if it's already happened, clearly everyone knows what it means. They don't stop to define it, they're just tossing that aside as a means of getting to the next point. I find that to be one of the most troubling habits of the talking heads.
(06:28): The first few times I encountered this phrase, I didn't really know what it meant. I imagined that it meant switching to ecommerce from brick-and-mortar.
Justin Mannhardt (06:37): Yeah.
Rob Collie (06:37): I didn't even realize that that was the impression I had, it was just this vague feeling in the back of my head.
Justin Mannhardt (06:42): The word digital, I'm just thinking about this now because a lot of times, you'll look at one of these diagrams, it's like, "Your digital transformation wheel includes all these things." You'll see something like, "Move to the cloud." I'm like, "Okay, were the servers with the software, was that software analog or something?"
Rob Collie (06:59): Yeah, we've been digital for a long time, right?
Justin Mannhardt (07:01): Yeah.
Rob Collie (07:01): Most broadly defined, you could say that the digital transformation really got going with the adoption of the PC.
Justin Mannhardt (07:09): Right.
Rob Collie (07:10): That was when digital transformation started. In the sense that it started in the 1980s, maybe it is something worth talking about somewhat in the rearview mirror, but that's not what they mean. They don't mean the adoption of the PC.
Justin Mannhardt (07:23): No. But it's interesting, when you think about the timeline of technology evolution. People say, "Oh, you described it as past tense." Digital transformation has occurred in en masse in market. Now today, it's like AI is here, en masse in market. But the pace at which new things are coming out, what's really happening is just the long tail is longer back to where companies were at in this journey. It's not like the entire industrial complex has been collectively moving to the modern current state across the board. There's companies that are still running SQL 2000, that's their production world still. This isn't something that's happened.
Rob Collie (08:09): I think that the big talking head analysts often tend to really only talk about the most elite sub-strata of even their own clients. When they talk about this as something that's completely done, even most of Gartner's paying clients, I would suspect, aren't anywhere close to done. But we still haven't really started talking about what it actually means.
(08:32): Let's say it is not the switch from paper and pencil systems to electronic line-of-business systems. Not only do we have the PC, and that's been long since mainstreamed, the notion of line-of-business software, server based software, whether cloud or otherwise, line-of-business software is also I think incredibly well entrenched. We're done with having key business systems running in a manual format. That's long since rearview. That also isn't what they mean by digital transformation.
(09:07): Of course, both of those are digital and they were huge transformations, but that's not the digital transformation we're talking about. It's anything that's happened after that.
Justin Mannhardt (09:15): Yeah.
Rob Collie (09:16): It's a lot harder to pin down the things that happened after that.
Justin Mannhardt (09:20): In general, I agree with you because the big blocks, software, the availability of the cloud, not having intensive paper process in most companies, that's largely been accomplished. To different levels, of course. Then, what's left? What's the definition? What are we trying to do?
Rob Collie (09:41): Well, if you think of the line-of-business application and the PC, the PC interfaces with all the line-of-business apps. I would say that, and even this is not 100% true, but I would say that the conversion to digital systems is complete, or complete-ish.
Justin Mannhardt (09:59): Okay.
Rob Collie (09:59): When you look at your business as individual silos.
Justin Mannhardt (10:03): Say more. You've got a digital environment for finance, digital environment for sales, is that what you mean?
Rob Collie (10:09): Yeah. Core workflows have largely been digital for a while. All the workflows that take place between systems, or the workflows that take place adjacent to a system, those are the things that we're talking about when we talk about digital transformation, going after those workflows.
(10:30): Everything we've been doing in the world of business software since at least the 1980s has been digital transformation.
Justin Mannhardt (10:38): Yeah.
Rob Collie (10:39): But our digital transformation, we're really talking about at least the third chapter. It's not chapter one or two. It's like the next frontier, identifying and going after a new class of workflows that would benefit from essentially software support.
Justin Mannhardt (10:56): Right.
Rob Collie (10:56): Okay. Now because almost by definition, just by subtraction ... We're saying, "Look, we've got the PC, we've got the line-of-business systems that handle the core workflows within a silo. What's left?" Well, it's almost like a perfect mathematical proof. What's left is the stuff between and outside.
(11:14): Given that everyone's mix of line-of-business systems is, I like to say, best of breed, meaning random. It's whatever we decided at the time. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Legacy.
Justin Mannhardt (11:25): Yeah.
Rob Collie (11:26): You're never going to have anything off-the-shelf that helps you solve the workflows. The middleware problem between your systems is always going to be a custom solution.
(11:38): We should give examples of these. When I said outside or adjacent to, there's even workflows that they're not really between systems, they're just the offline portion of working with the system. I'm thinking about a budgeting process, for instance. The world's first budgeting systems were mostly there to record your budget that you enter into it. As those budgeting systems have gotten better, they've included more and more of the human workflow that goes into creating, and evaluating, and kicking the tires before it's finalized. Those offline human workflows, getting more and more structured about them, can make a huge difference.
Justin Mannhardt (12:19): Not just structured, Rob, more tightly integrated with the adjacent system itself. I like that adjacency, because if you have a financial system where your budget or your forecast lives, there's a martialing of activity, analysis, input. Then you say, "Okay, we need to get it look like this," and then we put it in the thing. What happens in that processes, you get all sorts of scattered iterations of ideas and it gets loose. But if you could have all that iteration tight, the final submission is already handled or much easier.
Rob Collie (12:51): Yeah. Sticking with the budgeting example for a moment, it still echoes one of the themes I mentioned for the between systems, the between silos case. Which is that one-size-fits-all systems, off-the-shelf systems, they really struggle to address all the nuances of your particular business. It's very, very difficult. The more, and more, and more you try to get the offline processes, the human processes brought into the digital workflow, the more an off-the-shelf software package is going to struggle. It's getting further and further away from the safety of the core of the task.
(13:28): This is why the Power Platform approach to budgeting and planning is often, in fact almost always, a more effective, in terms of cost-effective, time effective, results effective. The core libraries for doing all of the things that you need to do are basically already there and it's inherently designed to be customizable.
Justin Mannhardt (13:48): And very nimble. Even the big players in FP&A software, they're not that great, in our opinion, at the end of the day. But the price points just exclude anybody that's not a very sizeable, formidable company. You're not looking to spend that kind of money if you're even a few hundred million a year type operation. You're just not going to sign up to that agreement. You are left with a middleware type of a problem, that you're either solving with spreadsheets, pen and paper, or something else. Our platform can slide right in there.
Rob Collie (14:26): Of course, there is a huge advantage to performing a "digital transformation" on a process like that because the human, offline, pen and paper, sending random emails, getting answers, tracking them, it's incredibly tedious, it's incredibly error-prone. Just super, super slow. It's not like you can perform many iterations. You're not even really going to be able to pull off one iteration and you call it good. But you're just going to miss so much. The budget could have been so much better. If you've got a bad budget, of course you're going to pay for that later.
(14:58): That's the adjacent case. Let's talk about the between a little bit as well. What's an example of a workflow that would span across different line-of-business systems but require a human being essentially, or humans, to essentially carry the buckets of water between those different pipes?
Justin Mannhardt (15:18): We'll make up a company today, Rob, we'll start a new company and it's going to be called I Manufacture Things, Inc. Hey. At I Manufacture Things, Inc., I've got a sales team.
Rob Collie (15:28): Do we make things other than ink?
Justin Mannhardt (15:30): No, that's incorporated.
Rob Collie (15:32): Oh, okay.
Justin Mannhardt (15:32): We just make things.
Rob Collie (15:34): Can't help it. Can we be We Manufacture Things Ink, Inc.?
Justin Mannhardt (15:38): Sure.
Rob Collie (15:39): All right. But anyway, we manufacture things.
Justin Mannhardt (15:41): There you go. We've got a sales team and they're using a CRM system, such as Salesforce, or HubSpot, or whatever. They're out there, they're doing quotes, they're tracking opportunities, and eventually someone says, "Yeah, I'd love to buy a palette of ink," or whatever. Our company, we're not using the CRM to deal with the production and fulfillment of that order. Okay, so now there's this process where my order form, let's not use any paper in this example, it's still digital but it lands as a PDF form in someone's email inbox that says, "Hey, Customer Service Rep, here's an order." Oh, okay. Now I'm keying said order into our production system that says, "Go manufacture this thing." Now we need to ship the thing out somewhere, and now we're in our logistics system.
(16:33): There's all these little hops between systems. Which technology has become more open, and sure there's things like APIs and code based ways to integrate them, but that's not in range for a lot of companies. That's an example of where you could stitch in these little Power Platform type solutions to just, "Hey, let's map the relevant fields and information from the CRM into the order management system." If there's some blanks that need to get filled in, that's okay. Maybe I'm just starting from a queue of new orders right in the system, and I'm maybe adding three or four pieces to that puzzle instead of all of it.
Rob Collie (17:12): Okay. I want to make a global note here. Note that we're talking about this broad topic, digital transformation. We're already way down into very detailed, specific use cases. In my opinion, that's what digital transformation is, it's a collection of all of these individual use cases where things can get faster, more efficient, more accurate. It is the sum of many small things. Each one of them might have tremendous impact. This is the way.
(17:46): In this particular example, I've been describing the Power Platform as the world's best middleware for a while now. Even Power BI is middleware. It's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful capability is that it can simultaneously ingest data from multiple different line-of-business silos that have never once talked to each other. The only place that they meet is in a Power BI semantic model.
Justin Mannhardt (18:10): Yeah.
Rob Collie (18:10): And they play a symphony together that Power BI makes them play. They still have never seen each other, but Power BI is what bridges the gap. Now, Power BI is read-only by itself, it doesn't make changes to any systems.
(18:25): In this particular case, it sounds like Power App's and Power Automate's music. Let's just get really tangible here. I know that it's a very specific, but it's a fictional example. But lots of people have almost exactly this problem.
Justin Mannhardt (18:39): Yeah.
Rob Collie (18:39): Just talk me through what a solution to that particular problem might look like if we implemented it in the Power Platform. How much work, how much elapsed time do you think it would take? Let's dig into this one a little bit.
Justin Mannhardt (18:51): If what I want to do is, when we receive an order or close a deal in our CRM, I want that to move some data to another system, let's just say that's assumed. Power Automate can solve this need. Obviously there's a lot of detail, you can look some things up online, or you can email robandjustin@p3adaptive.com and we can trade some ideas here. But there are tons of out-of-the-box connectors, and in those connectors they have what's called a trigger. I could say, "When this happens in Salesforce," for example, "I want to start building a flow." I can say, "Okay, I want these fields, and I want to write them from Salesforce to this destination." Maybe that destination's a database, maybe that destination is another system that Power Automate supports that you can write to.
(19:37): It could be just this simple mapping exercise. When this happens over here, grab this data, and create a new record over here in this system.
Rob Collie (19:46): Okay. A trigger in this case would look something like, "When a record in Salesforce is marked as a win," we've signed a deal, someone wants to buy a palette of whatever. Then automatically, it wakes up, looks at the record in question that the data associated with the sales win in Salesforce, grabs certain fields out of the Salesforce record, certain pieces of information. Let's keep it simple for a moment, and just pushes them into a simple SQL database or something, that could be stood up in minutes. We don't have to spend a lot of time. Or maybe, we just drop it into OneLake.
Justin Mannhardt (20:23): Lots of options there. I think this is a nice little simple example, because when you talk about Power BI, that's a very tangible apparatus. These are the things you set up, and you never really go ... You monitor it of course, but you never really go engage with it. You put the glue in place, and it's magic and it's cool. That's a simple version.
(20:44): But sometimes, the data coming from its source is incomplete relative to what it's destination requires to take the next action. In this type of scenario you could either say, "Well okay, once it gets over there, we're just in that system, maybe we're adding to it." But this is where you might insert a Power App into the process. Win a deal in Salesforce that triggers, grab these fields. Let's go ahead and write it over to Dataverse, this is a back end of a Power App, for example. Or a database, or SharePoint, who knows. It depends on what makes sense.
(21:18): Now we've got a Power App that maybe has a little work cue that says, "Hey, Rob, you've got new orders." You're either approving them, or you're annotating them with additional information. You're doing the human process, like you were describing before, maybe ensuring some hygiene, completeness, whatever. Then you do something in Power App that says, "Okay, go ahead and kick this down the line from here."
Rob Collie (21:40): Yeah. Here's an example. In the CRM system where the sale is being executed, there's probably an address for this customer that is associated with that account, especially if we've done business with them before. But this customer might have many different physical locations. A palette of stuff showing up at the wrong physical location would be a real problem.
Justin Mannhardt (22:06): Yeah.
Rob Collie (22:08): Even just a sanity check Power App that hits the sales rep back, shows up in their inbox or something, shows up in Teams, somehow there's a cue for them to process these things, where they need to just glance at the order and validate that the shipping address is the right one.
Justin Mannhardt (22:28): Yeah.
Rob Collie (22:28): Even if that's all it is, that's the only additional piece of information is yes, no, that's the right address.
Justin Mannhardt (22:34): Yeah. Or sometimes there's a material that is sold is related to a bill of materials to produce. Maybe there's some choices that need to get made in the manufacturing process, such as what specific raw materials are we going to use for this order? Which machine are we going to produce it on this week? Maybe you're just adding the execution instructions.
Rob Collie (22:59): This is interesting because you could stop yourself at this moment and go, "Wait a second. Shouldn't those questions be encoded and implemented into the CRM?" The answer is of course, they could be. But your CRM might not be a nimble place to make those sorts of changes.
Justin Mannhardt (23:20): That's right.
Rob Collie (23:22): It's also a dangerous thing to be customizing.
Justin Mannhardt (23:24): Yes.
Rob Collie (23:25): There's a lot of validation and testing that's required. There's a reason why modifying and writing custom code into one's CRM doesn't happen all that frequently. Whereas this process you're describing is relatively safe, by comparison. It doesn't rock the boat. It's between. Forcing these sorts of modifications and customizations into the individual silo line-of-business applications, if that were so feasible, that would already be happening.
Justin Mannhardt (23:55): I've worked for companies like this, I've engaged with companies in my consulting career like this, where they have done that. They said, "We've got the talent in-house, so we're going to customize this thing." Then you get into a conversation of, "We'd like to upgrade to the newer version." They realized, "Oh, we can't."
Rob Collie (24:18): Yeah. "It'll break out customizations," yes.
Justin Mannhardt (24:20): Or sometimes, the programming language that the customizations are done in is not the same programming language in the newer version. While it's possible, if you have the resources, the time, and the money, it becomes a heavier lift. It begs the question, why?
Rob Collie (24:36): I was describing the heavy lift being that the original line-of-business system might be resistant to change, resistant to the customizations that you want to implement. You're describing it as also, even if you do perform those customizations, the next major software upgrade is going to be a problem. That rings true for me. I remember the object model in Office-
Justin Mannhardt (24:59): Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (25:00): All the VBA solutions that were out there, being incredibly paralyzing in terms of the things we could do with the product, because if you broke people's macros, they wouldn't upgrade to the new version of Office.
Justin Mannhardt (25:09): Yeah, been there. Yeah.
Rob Collie (25:12): I promise you that, at Microsoft, we took that problem and approached it with a level of discipline that it was probably 10 times greater than the average line-of-business software vendor. Because most line-of-business software vendors see themselves as platform vendors. They want to be considered like that, but they don't want to pay the price of it. So that's good.
(25:30): But then, the other thing is is if you built it into the line-of-business system, then inherently you're saying, "Okay, whatever that extra logic is, then it's up to that line-of-business system to then push those records across the wire." The new information has to go from the CRM to the other system. That kind of customization, both ends of the process are going to be very non-cooperative with this. This is another reason why doing this in a lightweight, nimble, intermediate layer provides a shock absorber to the system.
Justin Mannhardt (26:08): I like that analogy.
Rob Collie (26:09): It's pretty easy for Power Automate, all it's doing is pushing a handful of doing to something and that other something is going to take care of all the validation, all of the retry. Validation with human beings, but also the logging in to the other system and all of that. Coding all of that into your CRM is almost a non-starter. This is why the between workflows have remained so non-digitized.
Justin Mannhardt (26:42): Yeah. There's also a lot of tedium should be in play here, too. You have a written process, you look at your SOP documents and you say, "Oh, when this happens, Jan sends an email to Rob." Okay, well we could probably just get the Power Automate to send the email to Rob, if that what needs to happen.
(26:59): An example of this is something I built for myself at P3. When a potential new customer reaches out to us, and they want to meet with us and just chat, I wanted a process that reminded myself to go check out who that company is, understand who I'm going to talk. I just had a trigger that said, "When a meeting gets scheduled from this arena, just create a task for me to remember to do this before the meeting." Even little things like that, that are just personally useful, have been really beneficial as well.
(27:33): It's much easier to say well yeah, dashboards, charts, graphs, cool. Or even fabric, even though that needs some demystifying still. This middleware, it's invisible, there's so many options. There's 100,000 little improvements you could make with it.
Rob Collie (27:48): The world has spent a long time coming around to why dashboards could be valuable.
Justin Mannhardt (27:55): They still are.
Rob Collie (27:56): Yes. When you say the word dashboards and you show that work product, even in the abstract to someone, the communication of what the value is benefiting from all of that history of the world waking up to the value of dashboards. Honestly, it wasn't that clear 15 years ago. It wasn't clear to people, most people anyway, why they needed them, why they were better than just running the reports out of each line-of-business system. But because it's such an inherently visible work product, it is a lot easier, I'm going to use the word, it's a lot easier to visualize what the impact will be, what it does for you. Whereas these other workflows, until you know that they're improvable, this is why digital transformation is so hard to understand because it is really talking about spaces where it's hard to visualize software helping because it's never been able to help.
(28:53): Let's go back to this example where the sale happens in the CRM system. Some information just automatically gets dropped in a data store, off to the side for the moment. There's potentially some Power App clarification. There are human inputs that are required here and you still want a human being to provide those.
Justin Mannhardt (29:16): I want to point out here too, it's easy to get into a situation where that data store is simply being read by a report, even a Power BI report. But if the human's going to say, "Yes, no," or add to it, the Power App is just a way better piece to put there.
Rob Collie (29:32): Yeah. Let's have this example be like an example that we would look at and smile, be proud of. The Power App is involved. Then when the human interaction is done, they press okay or approve in the Power App. Take me to the next step.
Justin Mannhardt (29:49): Well ideally, we are pushing data and information into the next system or workflow.
Rob Collie (29:57): This is a two silo problem. We have the CRM system and then we have the manufacturing, work order and shipment system, the fulfillment system.
Justin Mannhardt (30:06): The WMS.
Rob Collie (30:08): Is that what that is?
Justin Mannhardt (30:08): Yeah.
Rob Collie (30:09): Okay. We've already covered the first silo. We've gotten the human interaction. Now it's time to send it on to the second silo. How does that work?
Justin Mannhardt (30:20): This just comes down to what the point of integration is in the second silo. We could be inserting records into a SQL database, we could be making a post request to an API endpoint. In Power Automate, most of these things are WISIWIG in nature. There is an open code interface if you need to get to that and want to do that, need it. But usually, it's just mapping. You find your destination and it says, "Oh, here's the fields to map to." You say, "Okay," you just drag and drop. It just depends on what your destination system is, but you're just creating a target in your workflow, and the data goes.
Rob Collie (30:55): The way I like to look at this is that, even though each line-of-business silo system, they're never really built to talk to each other.
Justin Mannhardt (31:04): Right, they need a translator.
Rob Collie (31:05): Yeah. The translator and the shock absorber. But at the same time, it's not hard to get the information you want out of one system, and it's not hard to write the information you need into another. But when you try to wire them directly through to each other-
Justin Mannhardt (31:23): Yeah.
Rob Collie (31:23): That is actually really difficult. You need this referee in the middle, that's able to change gears, like the ambassador between the two systems. When you think about a translator system, an ambassador system, a shock absorber, whatever you want to call it, whatever metaphor you want, you can also imagine an incredibly expensive, elaborate piece of custom software that's being written to do that. That's not what we're talking about.
Justin Mannhardt (31:47): No.
Rob Collie (31:48): Let's recap. Trigger fires in CRM system, some data gets slurped out related to that sale, dropped in an intermediate location that then powers a Power App. Power App is able to read that information, it knows who to reach back to to get the clarification, the approval, et cetera. It might be multiple people that need to provide some input.
Justin Mannhardt (32:09): It could be a whole workflow that lives right there.
Rob Collie (32:12): But eventually at the end of that workflow, in this case we'll just assume it's one step, one human being, the sales rep just needs to sign off, then the Power App's job is done. That's the human interaction part. Now we're back to Power Automate, correct?
Justin Mannhardt (32:24): That's right.
Rob Collie (32:25): Power Automate will notice there's another trigger that the Power App is done with its part, the approval button was pressed.
Justin Mannhardt (32:31): Clicked, yeah.
Rob Collie (32:33): Then it turns around, and it knows, because again we wire it up ... It sounds like we might be lucky, it's just drag and drop, one time development. But if it's not, it's probably not that much code, to go inject the new work order into the WMS system?
Justin Mannhardt (32:52): Yeah, it's the WMS, warehouse management system.
Rob Collie (32:53): Let's call that the end of the story for this one integration. Let's say things go incredibly well in this project. We don't really encounter any hiccups. Best case scenario, how long on the calendar would it take for us to wire something like this up?
Justin Mannhardt (33:12): Yeah, best case scenario this is something that gets done inside of a week.
Rob Collie (33:15): That's the difference.
Justin Mannhardt (33:16): Yeah.
Rob Collie (33:18): All right. Worst case scenario, both of these systems are more stubborn than usual, the connectors aren't built into the system, and they still have some relatively rudimentary ways of data access, but it's nothing WISIWIG off-the-shelf. We just get unlucky with these two stubborn line-of-business systems. How bad can that be?
Justin Mannhardt (33:37): Well, instead of being inside of a week, maybe it's weeks, like two or three. The only reason that gets extended would be okay, instead of pure WISIWIG drag and drop, maybe we are having to do some light handling of adjacent array. But there's tools for that. You can say, "Parse this into fields so I can now drag and drop it." Maybe instead of our Power Automate workflow having three, four steps, maybe there's 10. Some of those steps have a little bit more involvement. Maybe there's some time because we got to troubleshoot a little bit more and make sure we've got it all right. But I think the overall point here is these are relatively light touch on the calendar.
Rob Collie (34:18): I had a job in college that I've never brought up on this show.
Justin Mannhardt (34:23): Ooh.
Rob Collie (34:23): I was obsessed about this workflow for nearly a whole decade afterwards. Where I was working for a construction company, and there's this thing in the construction industry that I'm sure is still a thing, and it's called the submittals process. Where it turns out, when you're going to build a building, there's an ingredients list for a building. You were talking about different material options for manufacturing. So we're going to make a brick exterior. Okay, what kind of brick? There are many different colors, kinds, textures, levels of quality. Literally, the owner of the building, the person paying to have the building built, that owner and their architect, and sometimes their structural engineers, are going to want to hold a physical brick in their hand.
Justin Mannhardt (35:05): Right.
Rob Collie (35:06): This is the brick that you are going to use. They want to inspect it with their eyes, whatever, they want to feel ... Maybe even run tests on it.
Justin Mannhardt (35:14): Smack it with a hammer.
Rob Collie (35:16): Right. Then, when you build the building, you better use that brick because they're holding onto the brick, the sample, the reference brick. You think about the number of ingredients that goes into building a building, and the building in question that I was working on helping out with this process was the new chemistry building at Vanderbilt University. It was not just a regular building, it had all kinds of specialized hardware, and exhaust, and crazy stuff that wouldn't be in a normal building.
(35:44): There's this long list of materials that need to have submittals produced for them, samples. The requests all go to a million different vendors. You have to ask the subcontractor, the plumbing contractor, what pipe they plan to use. You find out what pipe they plan to use and then you say, "Okay, where do I get a sample of that pipe?" Sometimes you have to send the request for the sample to the pipe manufacturer, or something the subcontracting, the plumber, people will do it for you. Ah! It's awful.
(36:14): I was brought in to just be the human shock absorber in this process. I was constantly taking information from one format, copying and pasting it, if I was lucky. Usually, re-hand entering into another one. I have to do this multiple times. I have to do this on the outgoing request, and then the incoming materials coming back. Ugh, and then the shipping labels and everything. It was just they brought me in because they had their assistant project manager for the construction company, the general contractor, on this site. All of this was having to go through him. It turns out, he had another job which was called build the building.
Justin Mannhardt (36:54): Just a minor, little job.
Rob Collie (36:56): Yeah. The job of push the samples around was a fine thing to subcontract to a college student. I swear, I did 40 hours a week on that for a whole summer, and then part-time for the next two years. That's all I did.
Justin Mannhardt (37:13): Make note, students. If you take an internship and you end up like Rob, learn how to do Power Automate stuff and use that for your internship.
Rob Collie (37:22): By the way, we already had Lotus Notes with a tremendous amount of customized Lotus Note template for this process.
Justin Mannhardt (37:30): Yeah.
Rob Collie (37:30): But all that really was was just another line-of-business system that didn't talk to anything. It spit out paper is what it did, it spit out printed slips that announced, "This is your brick."
Justin Mannhardt (37:42): Congratulations.
Rob Collie (37:44): That would be a really, really challenging digital transformation process today, because not only is it cross system, it's also cross companies. But I'm sure that, if we looked at that process today, we would find things that could be optimized.
Justin Mannhardt (37:56): Oh, yeah. Your example reminded me of a really important opportunity in the construction industry or lots of trades. You're talking about people that are out in the field, on job sites, on location, they're not sitting in offices at workstations. All of these things we're talking about, especially these Power App interfaces, can be optimized for mobile. Instead of, "Oh, I'm going to write this down so when I get back to my home office," I can put something on the smartphone. Even if you're not picking from a list of material SKUs or whatever, you can say, "Hey, Rob needs a brick."
(38:36): Now this goes back to your central office, and it's into a work queue, and another screen in the Power App, then they can go navigate the vendors and all that sort of stuff, too. That's a great example of where you can just put a little spice on it.
Rob Collie (38:50): I said that was the only thing I did in that job, that's not true. I had other jobs. One of them was the plumbing contractor was deemed to be running well behind schedule, they were not installing pipe fast enough, pipe and duct work. They assigned me, the construction company assigned me the job of going out there, walking through the building and seeing how much had been installed, linear feet of various materials, and writing it down. I was terrible at this. It's not a good fit for me at any age, but at age 20, I was just constantly under-reporting how much work they'd actually done and getting them in trouble.
Justin Mannhardt (39:32): This does not sound like a good use of Rob.
Rob Collie (39:34): Eventually, everyone bought me the little thing that wheels along on the ground and counts distance. What I would do is I'd be looking overhead at these copper pipes that were hanging from the ceiling, and I'd just stand beneath one end of them and walk across the building, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. But then, what would I do? I would write it down. I'd write down a number. What floor am I on? What side of the building am I on? Which pipes am I looking at? "Oh yeah, 150 linear feet." By the way, have I already counted those pipes? Did I count those pipes last week? I don't know.
Justin Mannhardt (40:11): There's errors in the world that have Rob Collie's fingerprints on them. There's a building somewhere that's had some pretty serious issues over the years and it's Rob's fault.
Rob Collie (40:21): The plumbing contractor had a pretty good sense of humor about it. They knew I was a youngster. Anyway, really just another example of something that could be digitally transformed today and it doesn't have to be difficult.
(40:33): This is not something that's a global, let's go digitally transform the whole company all at once. You can pick and choose some high value examples. And decide if that's a sufficient win for you, you might be encouraged to do it elsewhere. There's no thou shalt do all of these things, there's nothing like that. You get to choose where your cost benefit curve lies. But just even knowing that this is possible I think and what it entails. Demystifying ... The process we just walked through, with today's technology, is not difficult. We're talking, as you said, within a week to several weeks on the worst case end. You do realize a bunch of benefits from that.
Justin Mannhardt (41:16): Yeah. I love how well the Power Platform, and this idea of it being middleware, just leans right into an idea that's been around for a long time in companies, which is continuous improvement. You can look at a problem, like the ones we've been describing, and you can go down the path and you say, "Okay, is there a piece of software that would solve or improve this problem?" You could look into something like that. Or you could say, "Actually, we have these other tools that we've been learning how to use and integrate into our organization, and we'll just take a week, or three weeks and make it better." If you decide to replace a silo down the road, like, "Hey, we're going to do a CRM take out," you've not saddled yourself up with this huge level of tech debt.
Rob Collie (42:05): Yeah, that's huge.
Justin Mannhardt (42:06): Because a lot of these decisions have so much pressure because you're like, "If we don't get this right, then we'll have all this." It's actually okay to be like, "Yeah, we're going to throw this away and build a different one." I think that's an important aspect of these things. You can empower a team of people who are just interested in making things better and it's not this huge sunk cost or investment that you're never going to get back. You're going to get value from it, even if you're only going to leverage it, say for a year. It's like, "Hey, that week was worth it because it eliminated this many errors," or lost time, or whatever. Then we did something else.
Rob Collie (42:44): This really hearkens back to something that I struggled to explain to people in my time at Microsoft. I had an intuition, and a lot of people had the same intuition, we weren't doing a great job of explaining it. What I'm going to talk about is the XML revolution.
(43:01): XML, and JSON, and all these sorts of things, are just taken for granted today. There's nothing magic about them, it's completely commoditized and that's the way it should be. But those of us who saw this XML thing coming as a real game changer, I think we're really just keying in on exactly this thing we're talking about. The world had been obsessed with APIs up until that point. Every system had an API on it that was capable of doing verby things. Read/write, make changes. These APIs tended to be very heavy. Anyone that's ever written any macro code against Excel will know that the Excel API is incredibly complicated. I'm talking about the desktop VBA comm automation. Go play around with the range object for a couple of days.
(43:49): The idea that two systems with good APIs could then talk to each other was still this myth that I think most of the software world believed. Our belief was stubbornly that we just hadn't gotten the APIs right yet. The next standard in API was going to get it done. What XML did, all it was really doing was saying, "Look, there's going to be a data transmission format that is completely separate from any API, and it's super, super readable, and it's super, super simple." It's the beginning of this shock absorber mentality. Since then, we've discovered that it doesn't have to be XML.
Justin Mannhardt (44:30): Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (44:31): But the XML thing did eventually lead us down the road of Hadoop, and DataLakes, and all of that. But yeah, this notion that you get the necessary data from system one, and there's this temporary ah, breath that you can take, and you can disconnect the process of slurp from system one and inject new into the other system. You can ever so slightly disconnect those two so they're not talking directly to each other. When you do that, you gain just massive, massive, massive benefits.
(45:03): Yeah, it's kind of neat to connect that now. Again, I used to talk to people all the time like, "No, XML is magic. It's going to blah, blah, blah." People would go, like my old boss did, again would be like, "I don't get it. Why is it magic?" I'd be like, "Well, it just is, man. You don't understand." He beat that out of me. It was one of the greatest that anyone's ever given me. By the time I was done with him, I could explain why XML was valuable but not at the beginning. I certainly didn't envision where we've landed here.
(45:27): Okay, so I think this was pretty straightforward, right? If you want to identify what digital transformation means for your organization ... This actually really parallels the talk I gave on AI the other night here in Indy.
Justin Mannhardt (45:39): Oh, right. Yeah.
Rob Collie (45:40): Don't talk about it from the tech point of view.
Justin Mannhardt (45:43): Yeah.
Rob Collie (45:43): Think about it from the workflow point of view. Where are the workflows in your company? What's really beautiful about digital transformation is that we can provide this extra guidance that, what are the workflows that happen between systems or adjacent to systems?
Justin Mannhardt (46:00): Yeah.
Rob Collie (46:00): It helps you focus on what we're talking about. It's not often you get a cheat code like that, so you can really zero in on something.
(46:08): I suspect that once you have that algorithm for looking, you're going to find lots of things. The Power Platform makes it-
Justin Mannhardt (46:18): Ah, it transforms them in digital ways.
Rob Collie (46:20): It puts that completely within range, completely within budget in a way that you wouldn't necessarily even expect. It's just kind of magic. It's the same level of magic that you'd get from Power BI, but in a read/write workflow sense.
Justin Mannhardt (46:33): Between and adjacent to, that's magic. That's a magic algorithm because I bet a lot of people, when you say digital transformation, they are thinking on or within the system, not between it.
Rob Collie (46:45): Yeah. It's another one of these marketing terms that's almost deliberately meant to be mystical. Everyone's supposed to pretend that they know what it means, but then it's left for all of us out here in the real world, close to where the rubber meets the road, to actually do something real with it.
(46:59): I wonder what percentage of the time people use the phrase digital transformation, if you scratch the surface, you'd find that they were completely bluffing?
Justin Mannhardt (47:07): Yeah. There's a category of thinking digital transformation, or even data analytics, where there's just all these abstract, conceptual statements or diagrams that mean very little. Let's just zoom into an actual problem, even if it's a little one, and fix it. Then, we'll go to the next one and fix that. We don't need big, fancy frameworks, teams, and steering committees to do any of that.
Rob Collie (47:35): I've got another example.
Justin Mannhardt (47:36): Oh, yeah?
Rob Collie (47:37): It's one that we've implemented here at P3. We have these Power BI dashboards that measure the effectiveness of our advertising. It turns out that advertising in particular on Google AdWords is not a global thing. It's the sum of many micro trends, your overall performance. It's highly, highly, highly variable based on which keywords you're matching against, what kinds of searches you're matching against, and what kind of messaging you're presenting to the user of Google. The only way to improve, most of the time, is to improve in the details.
(48:11): All right. For a while, we had this workflow where we'd identify an intersection of ads that we were running and what we were matching up with, in terms of people's searches. We'd identify a cluster of those that, I'll just keep it simple for the moment, where we'd say, "Look, right now we're providing the same message to a bunch of searches that aren't really the same search and we need to break this out, and provide a more custom, tailored message to each of these individual searches." We'd mark something for granularization.
(48:43): But originally, what we would do is we were looking at this report, we'd write down essentially this intersection and say, "Go split that out."
Justin Mannhardt (48:51): What did we do?
Rob Collie (48:52): Immediately, we'd lose all track of what did we even decide to do? Because then someone had to go over to totally Google AdWords system and enter new ads, and break this thing out. Even knowing whether that had happened, producing the work list of things that needed to happen, was very difficult because we were in the context of a Power BI dashboard that didn't do any communication elsewhere. We couldn't track what our to-do list was. Except again, completely offline. We built a Power App and embedded it into some of these reports. You'd click on the thing you'd want to break out, the Power App would pick up that context, and then we'd just use a little drop-down and say, "What do we want to do to this?" We're going to mark this for granularization.
(49:39): That did produce us a to-do list, that then could also be re-imported back into the report, so that we could se that we had marked that one to explode it out. We didn't have to look at it again, and we also in the reporting, could see whether that splitting up had been done because you'd come back to the Power App and say, "Done." Even better, you'd enter the IDs of the new groups, so that you can say, "Hey, this one is now superseded by these."
(50:07): Now we never got to the point of directly writing back to Google AdWords to make the changes. That still happened offline. We certainly could have imagined a world in which a Power App, a much more elaborate process was built that, then separately from the dashboard, would prompt you to write the new ad copy and things like that. You get to choose where the 80/20 is in your process. For us, the 80/20 was recording the list and tracking the lineage while we're in the context of the report. That was a big deal.
Justin Mannhardt (50:39): There are over 1000 pre-built and certified connectors available for the Power Platform.
Rob Collie (50:46): That's it? Just kidding.
Justin Mannhardt (50:48): They're adding things all the time. We live in a SaaS world. All these things, they're real.
Rob Collie (50:53): Yeah. That's a really critical point about Microsoft, is that they have realized that they are the middleware company.
Justin Mannhardt (50:59): Satya is all about it.
Rob Collie (51:00): Yes. In the Bill and Steve era, this was not Microsoft's game. They wanted to own everything.
Justin Mannhardt (51:06): Yeah.
Rob Collie (51:07): In Satya era, it's more like, "No, we want to work with everything."
Justin Mannhardt (51:11): It's great, I love it.
Rob Collie (51:12): Just recently, as I've gone down this path myself, reverse engineering in my own little way what this term means and coming to the conclusions that we have, I've realized that we are a digital transformation company. It's not the only thing that we do. Is read only Power BI middleware, is that digital transformation? Well, probably. By the strictest definition, probably yes, but not by the spirit of the law. The spirit of the definition means a read/write workflow. I'd mentioned in this last example, Power BI can be part of a read/write workflow. There's no reason to sideline it. In the other episodes, where we talked about improvement and action is the goal, how a Power App can be added to a Power BI report to help you take action on what the report is telling you. But just the broader Power Platform, Power Apps and Power Automate in particular. We do have a handful of clients where, most of the work we're doing is digital transformation work.
Justin Mannhardt (52:08): Right, this type of work.
Rob Collie (52:09): The adjacent in between that we're talking about. Even though we're mostly thought of as a Power BI company, as we're doing our next round of website rebuild, we've 100% put a digital transformation page on our sitemap. It'll probably use some of this language we're talking about here. Digital transformation, what does it mean? It is both not that special of a term, there's no rocket science to it, and at the same time, there's a lot of value to be realized from it.
Justin Mannhardt (52:36): Totally. Here's a fun little call back to our origin story as individuals and as a company. We spend a lot of our time helping, for example, like the Excel analyst move over to Power BI and we're trying to solve these middleware gaps. That's why I think, for us, it's just been quite natural to provide these types of services and capabilities to customers as we've grown because it's the same type of person that's spirited to solve these types of issues, and the technology, and the openness of it brought everything in range. It's fun to reflect back on how broad we can show up to a customer beyond just dashboards.
Rob Collie (53:22): Yeah. It's a miracle and a testament to what Microsoft has pulled off. You can certainly imagine a world in which they could enable that uptempo, highly efficient, what we call faucets first methodology for dashboards.
Justin Mannhardt (53:22): Yeah.
Rob Collie (53:38): And stopping there. To extend it to something like workflow and applications, and have implementation of these solutions feel very, very, very similar.
Justin Mannhardt (53:50): Yeah.
Rob Collie (53:50): It's completely compatible with our ethos. It's almost like I didn't even notice when we made that transition into doing both. It sneaked up on me. That's a good sign. I feel a little silly that it took me a while to digest it, but I love that it happened organically without us having to go-
Justin Mannhardt (54:10): Right.
Rob Collie (54:11): Pick up another toolset from another vendor, or change our hiring profile dramatically, or anything like that.
Justin Mannhardt (54:18): Yeah. Now, we've got some of these cool projects where you've got maybe someone that their expertise is more on the Power BI side, working right alongside someone whose expertise is more on the Power Apps, Power Automate side. They're just moving in lockstep with the same customer, closing these middleware gaps, building the reporting, and the action lives around it. It's that whole thing working together that makes it all really cool.
Rob Collie (54:41): I'm also developing an intuition that AI, maybe not the only application of AI, but I think a lot of the surface area of where we will find AI to be useful, plugs into this digital transformation thing, the adjacent in between. In particular, in sub workflows within the overall workflow.
Justin Mannhardt (55:03): Yes.
Rob Collie (55:03): Did your reaction fit that?
Justin Mannhardt (55:06): Yes, totally. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah.
Rob Collie (55:09): Then, we're good. I think it's easy, with dashboards, with BI, to imagine the global. Going from a non-dashboard company to a dashboard company, it's very easy to imagine that as a global thing and it's probably the right thing. Any place where you're flying without the information you need in a convenient, easy to digest format, let's go and get that. Even there, with the transformation to a data oriented organization, a data driven culture, you still pick places to start.
Justin Mannhardt (55:39): You got to start somewhere.
Rob Collie (55:40): This other thing, digital transformation is a little harder to imagine is a global thing, and that's fine. I think AI's the same way. You should not be thinking about AI as a global transformation for your business. Just like digital transformation, it is a go find particular places where you can score these wins.
Speaker 4 (56:00): Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
We would love to have you, yes you, in the Raw Data Steering Committee. Join us there and help chart the path of future Raw Data By P3 Adaptive podcast episodes!
On this special episode, we welcome the legendary Matt Allington back to the podcast. As one of the original giants in the Power BI community, Matt is gearing up for retirement and has chosen to share his invaluable insights and experiences with us once more. From his groundbreaking work at Coca-Cola to becoming a trailblazer in the Power Platform space, Matt's journey is filled with lessons, challenges, and triumphs that have shaped the world of business intelligence.
Today, Matt delves into the complexities of the Semantic Model, sharing stories from the trenches of solving data dilemmas that seemed insurmountable. He offers a peek into his transition from corporate life to a highly sought-after consultant, revealing the strategic thinking behind his success. But it's not just about the challenges; it's about the future too. Matt discusses the evolving landscape of the Power Platform and the exciting possibilities brought on by Microsoft's new Fabric rollout, providing listeners with a rare glimpse into the future of data analytics through the eyes of a seasoned expert.
This isn't just another podcast episode; it's an opportunity to learn from a true pioneer in the field. Matt's reflections on his career, the evolution of Power BI, and his predictions for the future are more than just insights—they're a roadmap for anyone looking to make their mark in the world of business intelligence. As Matt prepares to bid farewell to his professional career, we invite you to join us in celebrating his incredible journey on "Raw Data by P3 Adaptive." It's a conversation filled with wisdom, inspiration, and a bit of nostalgia that you won't want to miss.
Also in this episode:
This aggression will not stand: The Big Lebowski
The DAX Draft
One of the world’s most Amazing Humans, w/Matt Allington
In this week's episode of Raw Data, Rob takes the mic solo to dive into a riveting topic, sparked by Zach from our LinkedIn Steering Committee. The question at hand is a pivotal one in the rapidly evolving realms of analytics and AI: How essential is deep industry or domain knowledge in this tech-forward era? As we race through technological advancements, is there a shift in focus from the deep-rooted sector-specific expertise to a broader emphasis on adaptability and mastering new tech tools on the fly?
Rob delves into this debate, weighing the traditional value of domain expertise against the rising tide of tech fluency and the concept of Just-In-Time (JIT) training. He suggests we may be on the cusp of a significant transformation in professional expectations, where the agility to learn and implement new technologies swiftly could eclipse the longstanding reliance on industry-specific knowledge.
Further, Rob illuminates how platforms like Power BI are leveling the playing field, allowing professionals to transcend their industry silos and innovate in ways previously unimaginable. It's a discussion that not only broadens our understanding of the current tech landscape but also challenges our perceptions of what it means to be an expert in today's fast-paced world.
But this is just the beginning. Dive into the full discussion in this week's episode, and then join us over at the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive LinkedIn Steering Committee to share your own insights. Are you experiencing this shift towards tech adaptability over industry knowledge in your career? Let's continue the conversation, pooling our experiences and insights as we face these exciting changes together.
And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe for new content delivered weekly!
Also in this episode:
I drink your milkshake – There Will Be Blood
Environmental Engineering Meets the Data Gene w/ MS MVP Alice Drummond
Timely Supply Chains and Double Data Genes, w/ Jon Perl
Welcome to this week’s edition of Raw Data, where we're diving into a timely discussion on the evolution of AI and its comparison with revolutionary technologies of the past, like Power BI. This episode features host Rob Collie and co-host Justin Mannhardt engaging in a deep dive into the hype cycles that have surrounded transformative tech over the years.
Drawing on Rob’s rich experience, we take a step back in time to explore the transformative journey of Power BI, a tool that redefined the landscape of business intelligence by making sophisticated analytics accessible, swift, and economical. This story of innovation and foresight is juxtaposed with the current state of AI— a field bustling with potential yet shrouded in a mix of anticipation and ambiguity for many businesses.
In this episode, Rob and Justin dissect the realities behind the AI hype, urging a pragmatic approach towards technological adoption. They highlight the importance of mastering existing analytics tools like Power BI, which many organizations have yet to fully leverage, before being swept up in the whirlwind of AI enthusiasm. This practical perspective is essential for businesses aiming to make meaningful advancements in their digital transformation journey.
As we navigate these discussions, the episode serves as a beacon for those looking to understand the true impact of AI in the context of proven technologies. It's a call to action for focusing on tangible business problems, employing a strategy that prioritizes impactful solutions over the allure of the latest tech trend.
If you're excited by the intersection of AI, analytics, and business strategy, you can’t miss this episode. And as always, if you enjoyed this episode leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps shape our content and reach more listeners. Additionally, for those eager to dive deeper and share your thoughts, we invite you to join our LinkedIn Steering Committee. Your insights and suggestions are what shape our journey forward, illuminating paths to future episodes and discussions.
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AI Isn't Scary When You Break it Down: Five Use Cases Approachable Today
Ten Business Upgrades Within Your Reach in 2024
Fabric - It's GA (GO) Time!
Should We Be Skeptical About Microsoft Fabric?
Mailbag #1: Python, Fabric, and Mullets oh my!
Fabric is Nothing, But it's also Everything!
Welcome to this week’s journey on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, where we’re thrilled to feature Daniel Harley, a beacon of innovation at the intersection of finance and modern data analytics. As Director of Client Services at P3 Adaptive, Dan exemplifies the bridge connecting the steadfast world of traditional finance to the dynamic and ever-evolving landscape of Power BI.
In conversation with Rob Collie and Justin Mannhardt, Dan shares details on how Power BI is revolutionizing the way we approach the foundational elements of financial reporting: the Profit & Loss, Balance Sheet, and Cash Flow Statement. From his early days navigating the depths of finance to his journey to expert in the data analytics sphere, Dan’s story is a testament to the transformative power of embracing modern analytical tools for enhanced insight and strategic foresight.
In today’s episode, Dan also shares insights from his direct involvement in transforming financial reporting for a company navigating through substantial changes. This discussion provides a practical look at Power BI’s capacity to not just streamline operations but to elevate financial data as a pivotal asset in strategic decision-making and planning. For anyone interested in how finance and technology come together, this talk highlights the future of financial analytics and shows how tools like Power BI are key to making better business strategies and improving how companies work.
As always, if you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to subscribe to Raw Data by P3 Adaptive on your preferred podcasting platform. Want to engage with us directly? Join our Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Steering Committee on LinkedIn and share your opinions and suggestions for future episodes and guests!
In this episode, Rob and Justin offer insightful methods for assessing if your organization is truly harnessing the full potential of the platform. They outline specific "symptoms" to diagnose limited impact - like lack of stakeholder excitement, delays in answering new questions, and overreliance on Excel exports.
These symptoms signal opportunities to better leverage Power BI, even without outright failure. Rob and Justin also review technical diagnostics like high report-to-model ratios and poorly structured data models. These tangible checks provide actionable next steps for improvement.
Beyond diagnostics, they explore best practices for aligning analytics to business strategy. Justin details his process for ensuring data models, reports, and insights directly tie to key outcomes for sales, marketing, operations, and other groups. They even debate the pros and cons of enabling direct data model access for business users.
Peppered with engaging stories, Rob and Justin make practical recommendations for overcoming common data analysis hurdles. So, whether you're looking to grasp fundamentals or refine advanced skills, this episode delivers clear, relatable advice for maximizing business insights with Power BI.
Dive into this informative session to rethink how you use Power BI. And don't forget to subscribe and leave a review! Your feedback supports the show and helps more people discover it.
Also in this episode:
Listening to Your Stakeholders is Harder Than You Think
Creating a Theater of Excitement in Analytics w Austin Senseman
This week, gear up for an episode packed with insight and excitement! Our guest Luciano Miranda, Vice President of Analytics and Insights for Global Operations and Supply Chain at Medtronic, took us on quite a ride this week. His globally dispersed team helps inform critical decisions across Medtronic’s far-reaching supply chain using the power of data. What began as a scrappy five-person team doing their best in Excel has blossomed into an analytics powerhouse delivering insights that assist over 90,000 Medtronic employees.
But it wasn’t easy getting there. From adopting new technologies to overcoming changes in organizational structure, Luciano kept his focus squarely on delivering value to stakeholders. By putting relationships before process and always taking the “learner path” over the “judger path,” he turned obstacles into opportunities for growth.
The future holds even more change as AI promises to amplify our capabilities. But Luciano sees a bright future where these technologies enhance the power of dashboards and the insight of analysts. He chooses to ride the waves of change rather than be overcome by them. The human element still reigns supreme.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find the show. And be sure to subscribe for new episodes delivered weekly to your inbox!
Note: Everything we talked about is for non-medically cleared or regulated applications, simply internal analytics.
Also in this episode:
Medtronic: Microsoft Customer Stories
Formula 1 Ted Talk
"Principles" by Ray Dalio
Spotify and AI
NBA coach Doc Rivers and Analytics
Do you remember when Ryan Spar joined us a couple of weeks ago to discuss that amazing hockey stats dashboard? Well, we're heading back onto the ice to delve deeper into that theme, but with a new twist. This time, we're homing in on something incredibly crucial, yet often elusive in the world of data and beyond: the art of really listening to what people have to say.
In today's episode, we circle back to Rob's Amazing Indy Inline Hocky Stats Dashboard. Initially, it captivated us with its insightful analytics and dynamic visuals, but the journey didn't stop there. With an unexpected gap in his schedule, Rob took the opportunity to share how the project is evolving, fueled by ongoing feedback from players and data enthusiasts alike. He reveals how the transition from merely displaying data to actively incorporating stakeholders' feedback has elevated the dashboard, making it a more meaningful and inclusive tool for the entire hockey community.
So, strap in for an episode that seamlessly blends sports, data, and the power of effective communication. Discover the transformative impact of not just showcasing numbers, but truly understanding and responding to the needs and voices of those involved. If this episode resonates with you, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Don't forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and and be sure to stay tuned for more Raw Data stories!
Also on this episode:
Barton Fink
Today, we're taking you on a deep dive into the ever-evolving world of AI, and we want you to feel like you're right here with us, exploring the tools and features that can truly supercharge your business. Imagine this: harnessing the power of AI to predict customer loyalty and prevent them from drifting away – it's all about aligning AI projects with your business goals, without getting caught up in the buzz or getting left in the dust.
While some of the latest AI tech is still in its testing phase, Rob and Justin are excited to encourage you to jump right in and start experimenting. Take a moment to explore AI apps on your phone, strike up a chat with Microsoft Copilot, and watch the magic unfold as you introduce your data into the mix. Think of it as a quick dip into the captivating world of AI, where possibilities are endless.
Both Rob and Justin agree: AI holds immense potential, and businesses that hesitate to explore it might just miss out on groundbreaking opportunities.
Oh, and one more thing before you go – if you've enjoyed our podcast, be sure to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find our show!
MS Copilot App (Google Play)
MS Copilot App (Apple Store)
Chat GP3 App (Google Play)
Chat GP3 App (Apple Store)
Do not adjust your streaming platform, it is indeed a special Wednesday edition of Raw Data! Today's guest is Ryan Spahr, an Indy local with a double life...he's a lawyer AND a community leader! Ryan is partly responsible for the creation of Indy Inline Hockey, a recreational hockey league that also revitalized a community park from an unusable shell to a vibrant hub for all sorts of events!
Rob, being Rob, discovered that the league was seriously lacking in any sort of reporting and has now introduced the Power Platform into the mix and has created THIS neat dashboard! In this episode, Rob and Ryan discuss how this all came to be, feel free to play along at home and click around Rob's creation!
Roll out the virtual carpet, devoted listeners! This week on Raw Data, we've got a standout guest - none other than Austin Senseman. You might recall Austin from the show's early days when he was part of the Power Pivot Pro crew. Well, he's returned to the P3 hub, just as we're ramping up the intensity... and he's armed with tales from his entrepreneurial journey since going solo.
In this episode, Rob and Justin dive deep into Austin's sensor technology startup, Conserve, and his recent adventures scaling mountains. But the conversation keeps gravitating towards Austin's first passion - you guessed it, DATA. They delve into all things Power BI and the astonishing pace of innovation emerging from Microsoft.
Rob and Austin take a stroll down memory lane, reminiscing about the enchantment of those initial Power Pivot days and getting hyped about the thrilling transformations ahead for businesses with Power BI and Microsoft Fabric. So fasten your seatbelts for a high-octane session with an old comrade who's experienced the startup world from both sides and continues to return to his P3 family.
As usual, if you enjoy the show, drop us a review on your preferred podcast platform to help new listeners discover us. And don't overlook hitting the subscribe button for fresh episodes delivered directly to your inbox!
Are you feeling stuck trying to tap into your organization's data? Today we’re diving headfirst into 2024 with a discussion with Kristal Searle, Director of Strategic Operations for Coleman Oil that can illuminate the path that gets you unstuck. Listen in as Rob and Justin chat with Kristal Searle, a finance leader turned digital transformation driver. Kristal shares her journey from tentative Power BI beginner to confident head of BI strategy, crediting the P3 Adaptive approach for accelerating her capability along the way.
Through hands-on projects, Kristal saw firsthand how Power BI could provide real digital action versus more typical mystical transformations. We discuss false starts with other tools, the power of rapid iterations to prove concepts, and what it takes to build ambition for organization-wide change. Kristal offers sage advice on getting unstuck - from both data and outdated processes - to drive profitability.
While respecting her accounting roots, Kristal has grown to appreciate and harness the similarities between the rhythms of month-end close and the potential for real-time reporting. With longtime P3 partners by her side, she transformed not only systems but also her personal mindset and skills through tangible steps.
The moral of the story: your title doesn’t define your actual skills, duties, or goals. As you prepare for the inevitable changes of 2024, this episode can give you a heads up on the competition by sharing real stories of how P3 Adaptive and the Power Platform can help enable and realize your BI and Improvement ambitions, letting you, not the tools, be the star in the process.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe now so you never miss an episode of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive! And please leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help other listeners find our show.
In this episode, we embark on an engaging journey with a twist—it's Rob's first solo venture! Today, Rob dives deep into a thought-provoking question: Can platforms like LinkedIn ignite FOBO - the Fear of Becoming Obsolete? He deftly navigates the intricate world of FOBO, exploring its potential ties to platforms like LinkedIn and posing some tough questions. Are these digital landscapes fostering the Fear of Becoming Obsolete?
But our exploration doesn't stop at social media. Rob's known for tackling hard-hitting topics, and today is no different. He also addresses another pressing concern: the fear of new technologies and the looming presence of AI. Are these fears genuinely justified, or are they as fragile as a house of cards?
Stay tuned, dear listeners, as we dive deep into the essence of FOBO, using it as a catalyst for growth and an enduring source of learning. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on your preferred podcast platform to help new listeners discover our show!
We’re calling BS on lazy BI. For too long, dashboards and reports have glorified their ability to inform while taking zero ownership over actuating decisions or ensuring actions. Proof? How many times have you rotated from screen to screen like an overworked copy-paste minion?
In this episode, we expose reporting's dirty little non-action secret and provide tips to evolve your analytics from passive to active. Learn to design for actionability, build automated assists around report insights, continually track business impact, and ultimately wring more value from data by moving from identification to improvement (while massively reducing operational suffering!).
If you’re tired of solutions that sound smart but barely lift a finger to drive results, this episode is for you. Let’s stop celebrating sexy viz and get serious about visibility leading to actionability. Real outcomes over pretty charts! Tune in now.
Feeling behind the curve when it comes to leveraging data and technology in your business? Stuck relying on manual processes and gut instinct instead of actionable insights? You're not alone.
Tune into this special episode as hosts Rob and Justin reveal 10 achievable ways you can use data to transform your business in 2024. No fancy tech skills or big budgets required.
Learn how you can break free of Excel reporting, gain visibility across departments, and take the guesswork out of important decisions. Hear practical tips for unleashing marketing analytics, optimizing cloud investments, and even dipping your toe into AI.
We’ll also tackle ways to modernize budgeting and transform manual, offline processes to boost efficiency.
If you want to compete above your weight class in the year ahead, this episode is a must-listen. You’ll discover quick wins to drive profitability, service, and growth while creating capacity for the human strengths machines can’t match.
The tools to punch above your weight in 2024 are more accessible than ever. Tune in now to start planning your next plays.
Hey there, folks! Today is THE day we've all been eagerly waiting for – the Fabric GA release! I'm absolutely thrilled to bring you this exclusive live episode, joined by my partner in crime, Justin. Together, we're about to dive headfirst into the most groundbreaking news and updates that come with this monumental release. It's like having a front-row seat at a thrilling event, and you won't want to miss out on a single moment. So, grab your snacks, kick back, and let's embark on this unforgettable journey together!
But this episode is more than just an overview; it's a deep exploration into the future of data and analytics. Justin and I will be your guides as we unpack all the can't-miss announcements and unveil the exciting road ahead for the Fabric community. Whether you're a seasoned pro or new to the Fabric universe, this episode promises something for everyone. So, stay tuned, stay engaged, and get ready to be a part of the Fabric GA release like never before!
Welcome to another riveting episode of the P3 Adaptive podcast, where we cut through the hype and take a deep dive into the enigmatic world of Microsoft's Fabric. Today, we confront the burning question: Should we be skeptical?
In recent episodes, the buzz around Fabric has been deafening, with phrases like "brand new direction" and "super ambitious" lighting up the analytics sky. But here, right now, we plunge headfirst into the heart of the matter. Is Fabric truly the transformative force it purports to be? Will your hard-earned skills continue to shine in this evolving landscape? Does Fabric demand an unyielding commitment to learning just to stay in the game?
Justin and Rob don't pull any punches. Instead, they join forces to present an unfiltered perspective, laying bare both the promises and potential pitfalls of Fabric. They acknowledge that, like any cutting-edge technology, there may be growing pains and challenges to navigate.
But that's not all. They also unveil Fabric's secret sauce, revealing how it transforms Power BI into a formidable hub for advanced analytics, all on your terms. If you've ever found yourself torn between your trusty old skills and the allure of new technology, this episode sets the record straight. It's about not just adapting but thriving in your BI career, democratizing enterprise-class analytics along the way.
The bottom line: Fabric amplifies your expertise—it doesn't diminish it. So, join us and embrace evolution!
And, if you're enjoying the podcast, please take a moment to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help other listeners find us here on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive.
Also on this Episode:
The Princess Bride’s Rodents of Unusual Size (ROUS)
Monty Python Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things
On today’s episode, we explore how Opus One, led by data visionary Jack Irby, has leveraged data to redefine the winemaking industry. Prepare to have one of those "aha" moments when data's power just clicks as Jack takes us on an exciting journey into the world of winemaking. Listen in as we learn how Opus One defied tradition and embraced technology to become a Napa Vally Icon.
Before becoming the wizard behind tracking ultra-premium wine allocations, Jack embarked on a delightfully eclectic journey. From belting out saxophone solos to channeling his inner Billy Beane, he's infused creative flair into every step.
At Opus One, Jack discovered an industry thirsty for innovation. And today, you can listen in as he revisits the wine world's "pre-data" era. Jack doesn’t hold back as he shares the origin story behind his groundbreaking methods to trace each bottle’s journey from vineyard to table. Prepare to be amazed as he describes the development of an app capable of adjusting rare wine allocation in real-time . . . a sommelier's dream come true!
If you’ve enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find the show!
Grab a cup of joe and settle in, data heads. This overflowing mailbag is packed with piping hot Q's on all things data, tech, and working in the analytics trenches.
We're giving you the inside scoop on our iconic Mullet Man branding, our ride-or-die philosophy on learning new tech, and why we take a faucets-first approach to data projects. Plus we're unpacking the origin story behind Rob's OG DAX book, the future of Power BI Embedded, and the exhilarating experience of working at P3.
You'll also get Rob and Justin's candid take on battling FOMO and imposter syndrome in an ever-changing Microsoftverse. We're keeping it real on why recurring Excel data dumps are trouble waiting to happen and how to avoid burnout when MS rolls out the next hot tech.
Stick around for hot takes on data warehouses vs data lakes and the ideal conditions for employing proper data architecture principles. We'll give you the DL on our spicy new website, P3's true guiding values, and more behind-the-scenes gossip than you can shake a mullet at.
The mailbag overfloweth, but there's still more Q's where these came from! Join the LinkedIn Steering Committee to ask your questions for our team to answer in an upcoming episode. For now, sit back and enjoy the ride as we crack open this bundle of burning data questions. The Mullet Man cometh!
The first Jam Session episode of Raw Data features, you guessed it, all things Microsoft Fabric! Rob and Justin discuss MS Fabric and field a few of your most burning Fabric questions and unravel them-please keep those questions and topics coming!
We’re back and we brought some changes. Today, join us for an electrifying episode featuring none other than Jeff Jorgensen, the Chief Investment Officer at Cap Six!
Hold onto your seats as Jeff takes us on a rollercoaster ride through his incredible journey from pro baseball player to Wall Street wizard. Get ready to have your mind blown as he dishes out the juiciest insights on using data and tech to stay on top of the game, steer clear of blunders, and achieve mind-boggling success!
But wait, there's more! Jeff's knack for turning complex investing ideas into thrilling sports analogies will have you on the edge of your seat but won’t leave you disappointed. He'll emphasize the power of building an all-star team and making tiny tweaks that lead to colossal victories in life, data, and investing!
And that's not all! Our very own Justin Mannhardt, our newest co-host extraordinaire, will throw in his two cents and insights coming. While we dive into Jeff's collaboration with P3 to create game-changing decision-making tools, you'll also glimpse the wild ride we enjoy with our clients.
This episode will leave you buzzing with energy and grounded in the reality of data's transformative potential for old-school industries. Rob, Justin, and Jeff will inspire you to adopt a go-getter mentality, focused on relentless growth and learning. So, strap in, folks, because this is an episode you won't want to miss!
Also in this episode: Flash Gordon
Highlander
Needful Things
Moneyball
The Hangover Equations scene
The Martian “You can accept that or get to work”
Animal House: Band scene
Join us for an enlightening chat with Excel maestro, Szilvia Juhasz. We're diving into captivating tales, including that memorable moment when Szilvia left an indelible mark on the celebrated Mr. Excel with her pivot table expertise. Walk with us down memory lane, spotlighting the pioneering steps of those early Power Pivot champions. And, for a fun aside, we may even share the origins of the "RC Columns" cocktail - a cheeky gin-based nod to the legends of the Excel world.
Switching lanes, we'll delve into the upcoming Energy & Mobility Conference & Expo conference curated by Szilvia. This promises to be a standout 3-day event, zoning in on renewable energy, space exploration's exciting horizons, and our collective sustainable future. And, as a completely unrelated side note, check out P3 Adaptive’s Workshop for the Expo: Supply Chain and Energy Industry Performance Benchmarking with Power BI!
Don’t worry, we didn’t forget to throw in some data. For the data-curious among you, we've snuck in an entertaining and unexpected segment: an exploration of the unique relationship between historical UFO sightings and the trends in the pharmaceutical industry completed by none other than our favorite host, Rob of course. The findings? You just have to listen to find out!
In a nutshell, gear up for a balanced mix of tech insights, data discussions, and entertaining tales from inside the fun-loving Excel community. You won’t want to miss Szilvia’s perspective on the ever-expanding possibilities in our favorite data software. Whether you're deep into Excel, fascinated by space, or a fan of thoughtful conversations, this is a can’t-miss episode!
As always, if you enjoy the show, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe below for new content delivered directly to your inbox! Have a data day!
Also on this Episode:
Freakanomics
Skynet Takes Over
Deep Blue Beats Kasparov at Chess
What is a Tracking Pixel
NASA Aviation Day – Public Access
Today, on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, we have the privilege of chatting with Steve Orrin, the Federal Chief Technology Officer at Intel Corporation.
Steve's role is truly remarkable, as he plays a pivotal part in helping the US government embrace the latest technologies, including artificial intelligence, cloud computing, and high-performance computing. His collaboration with federal agencies enables the translation of cutting-edge tech capabilities into real-world solutions that support their crucial missions. And if that's not impressive enough, Steve also leads innovation projects that explore the potential of emerging technologies like quantum computing. Wow, talk about an impressive set of credentials!
With nearly two decades of experience at Intel, Steve possesses a wealth of knowledge about the evolving complexity of technology. The intricate web of options and interdependencies can often be overwhelming for many of us. During our conversation, we delve into how this complexity affects progress, particularly when it comes to information sharing and security.
While Steve's government work mainly involves unclassified discussions, he holds high-level security clearances. His exposure to countless intriguing insights (that he can't share publicly) adds a 007 layer of intrigue to this conversation. Don’t worry, though, Steve generously provides us with a fascinating glimpse into his work at the intersection of government, technology, and national security. Get ready to enjoy this enlightening discussion!
Also in this episode:
Intel and Quantum Computing
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial
Clockwork Orange
Welcome to Raw Data! In this episode, we chat with Paul Ray, a Microsoft Product design manager with over 20 years of experience in software design. Paul is currently working on educational experiences for students and educators around the world!
But what sets Paul apart is his unique journey to the tech world. As a teenager, he attended military maritime school with dreams of sailing the world. But after realizing the reality of working below deck in the engine room, he hit the road and traveled the country, gaining skills and experiences that eventually led him to Microsoft. Now, he's using his skills to develop products that help people learn, work, play, and live better, including a game-changing product for education that's helping teachers improve their students' reading scores!
With his strong track record of delivering innovative user experiences and putting the user first, Paul is the perfect person to talk to about the importance of human-centered design. So, grab your favorite beverage and join us as we chat with Paul about his philosophy on human-centered design, and how he's using tech to drive positive outcomes. This episode is packed with insights, humor, and a few surprises along the way, so tune in now!
As always, if you enjoy this episode, be sure to leave a review for us on your favorite podcast platform to help other users find us.
SPECIAL PROGRAMMING NOTE - We're going to take a little Spring Break hiatus, new episodes drop May 9th!
Also in this episode:
Fay Wray in King Kong
Are You Jimmy Ray - Jimmy Ray Song
Beautiful disaster song
Bill Gates Pie to the Face
Attribution bias
Dexter
The Impostor Syndrome World Championships, w/ Jocelyn Collie
State University of New York Maritime University
Confessions of an Advertising Man by David Ogilvy
John Mulaney Got Cheated Out of $120K
Football: The Southern Culture
AI DJ
Ice Ice Baby (now it’s stuck in your head too)
The Firm
Louis CK: Wifi on the plane
Bing: The Logo History (really)
Good Design is the Cake Not the Icing w/Brad Weed
Only Amateurs Name Drop Steve Ballmer w/ Mike Nichols
The Great Football Project
A Whole New World
Microsoft Education
It's an International Microsoft MVP edition of Raw Data with our special guest; speaker, author, and blogger, Cathrine Wilhelmsen! Cathrine is a prime example of the most accidental path to a data career, and she did so through the well-traveled avenue of......Fight Club?!
Fasten your seatbelts, folks! Today, we're chatting with Chris Wagner, the original Data God of Kratos BI, whose career has seemingly shaped the entire business intelligence (BI) industry. One can't help but wonder, if there was no Chris Wagner, where on earth would we be today?
Chris might just be the ultimate BI hybrid, skillfully navigating across platforms and staying flexible while progressing from storage to interactivity and finally to cross-source data modeling, thanks to Power BI. And get this, his data origin story began as the lone student setting up computers in the lab alongside Dr. Cray!
Join Chris, Rob, and Tom as they dive into the captivating history of mapping and diagramming data, from the most primitive methods (think yarn and tables in a Ford Motor Company conference room) to today's sophisticated digital tools. The conversation takes an intriguing turn as we uncover a personal story of collateral damage from a reporting assignment, sparking a lively debate on the politics of data sharing. The takeaway? Hidden data exists, and sometimes it's best to keep it that way.
Also on this episode:
Premiers April 12th: Amir Netz: The Future of Works: Insights from Microsoft's CTO
Cray Super Computers
Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Chaos is a Ladder - GoT
Hitler Hits a Breaking Point with Tableau
From FP&A to Global Director of Data w/ Khaled Chowdhury
P-Hacking - Selective Reporting
Excel is the Most Functional of Programming Languages w/ Simon Peyton Jones
The Software Hall of Fame w/ Microsoft's Conor Cunningham
The Software Hall of Fame
Austin Powers Steamroller
Snowflake Ranking DB - Engines
Get your popcorn ready and get ready to be entertained by our latest episode! In this episode, our host Rob Collie is joined by our data visualization and reporting specialist, Dave Rivera, who showcases the power of the Power Platform in his recent project to find the answer to a complex data question: "Which movie had the most decorated cast based on having received an Academy Award for acting?"
Using Power Query to scrape Wikipedia and Power Automate to gather information from IMDB, Dave created an elegant and accurate solution in under eight hours. He then ranked the actors by nominations and wins, created a ranking system for the movies based on the cast involved, and displayed the data in a user-friendly format using Power BI.
In this episode, Dave takes us through his journey of tackling this complex question and showcases the power of the Power Platform in making the solution simple and efficient. So sit back, grab your favorite snack, and tune in to learn more about data visualization, reporting, and the amazing possibilities of the Power Platform!
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us.
Also in this episode:
BestMovieCast.Net
IMDB
Academy Award Nominees on Wikipedia
The Player
Glass Onion – Hugh Grant
Every Stan Lee Cameo Ever (1989-2018)
The Greatest Story Ever Told
Charlton Heston – Moses Parts the Sea
True Romance
Get ready for an exciting episode of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive! Our guest today is Mike Nichols, a consumer technology and entertainment leader with a proven track record of building growth businesses and exceptional organizations. He's none other than the former Chief Marketing Officer at Xbox, who played a critical role in turning around the Xbox One release with his customer-centric and innovative marketing campaigns featuring #AaronPaul and #DannyMcBride. But that's not all—our guest also had a significant impact on the development of Microsoft's search engine, Bing, which was originally launched as Microsoft Live.
Mike also shares his data journey and some inside information on how he brings people together to drive growth and build iconic brands. He shares his insights on customer-centricity, innovation, diversity, and teamwork, and how these principles have guided his leadership throughout his career. From Xbox to Bing, our guest has left a lasting impact on the tech industry, and as a bonus, we even get to learn the truth about what "BING" stands for and what Mike knows about the naming process.
It's not all facts today, though, we do get a little speculation as Rob, Mike, and Tom delve into a fascinating debate about the divorce rate at Microsoft. Tom proposes a theory on the durability of first marriages for the first generation of Microsoft employees, and Rob and Mike weigh in on whether the overall rate is higher than the general public's and, more importantly, whether the rate is higher for Microsoft employees who were closely associated with Rob Collie. Is it the Microsoft Effect or the Rob Collie Effect? Regardless, this interesting discussion sheds light on the impact of work culture on personal relationships and the challenges of maintaining a healthy work-life balance in the tech industry.
Join us for an episode that is both entertaining and thought-provoking, as we explore the people behind the tech and the impact of work culture on personal relationships. This is an episode you won't want to miss!
And, as always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new users find us.
Also on this episode:
Windows live search – Bing
The Software Hall of Fame, w/ Microsoft's Conor Cunningham
Microsoft Team Manager
Asana
Needle Nose Ned
Happy Families are all alike: Anna Karenina
Aaron Paul Xbox Commercial
Danny McBride: More is Better Xbox commercial
Bada-Bing: Sopranos
DOJ v Microsoft: Antitrust Case summary
Malcolm Butler Game Winning Interception! Super Bowl XLIX
Anchorman 2: News Team Fighting Words Scene
Get ready to tune in to the next episode of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, where former P3 Adaptive superstar Fred Kaffenberger will be returning as a guest. Rob and Fred will be reminiscing about old times and geeking out over all things Microsoft. But the real kicker? Fred will be revealing a shocking confession: he once faced Rob's dreaded "Interview of Doom" having only known what V-LOOKUP was for 2 years! What happened next? Well, let's just say Fred didn't let that minor setback hold him back from becoming a data wizard.
Before joining P3 Adaptive, Fred worked as a white paper writer, where he was told he didn't have the "voice of the customer." But Rob knew better, recognizing Fred's talent for helping people get the most out of technology and a near clone of his own voice, Rob knew Fred had the talent and the skill to excel at P3 Adaptive.
Today, Fred is over at Oracle, where he's transitioned from writing about migrating from Oracle to Power BI to migrating from Power BI to Oracle. Talk about a change of pace! But true to form, Fred is still a tech wizard, constantly expanding his skillset and crushing it in the world of DAX.
As for his introduction to the world of data, it began in sales and moved to data and debugging. Eventually, Fred moved on to database work where he learned one of the most important lessons anyone in the tech field can use: the value of being concise when communicating with developers. As he discovered, the more words you use, the more room there is for interpretation, and nobody wants that.
As always, we hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to share your thoughts by leaving us a review on your favorite podcast platform.
Also on this episode:
Fred's Data Adventure blog
5 signs you have ADHD and autism by Yo Samdy Sam
William Dodson MD on the Interest-based Nervous System (ICNU)
Fatima the Spinner and the Tent by Idries Shah
Zork online
Discrete mathematics
Referential integrity
Oracle Analytics Cloud
Oracle Release 2--the first commercially available relational database to use SQL
Get Out
Nope
Excel Power Map
Diplo
Naomi Shehab Nai
Pirates of Silicon Valley
k-means Clustering
Today, we're doing something a little different. We're going to focus on a true, unfiltered story about people in the tech industry, and more specifically, about one of the most powerful figures in the field - Bill Gates. Some might even say he's one of the most powerful men in the world. This story had a profound impact on Rob, and we're excited to share it with you.
You know, when people find themselves in uncomfortable situations, they often develop coping mechanisms. Some people might talk excessively, or tell bad jokes, while others might shut down completely. Unfortunately, there are also those who lash out at others when they feel uneasy, which can create a negative impression of them. As humans, we tend to form our opinions of others based on our interactions with them. If the only time we've seen someone is when they're being a bully, it's not exactly a great first impression.
This story was accidentally cut from our episode Good Design is the Cake, Not the Icing, w/Brad Weed, but we felt it was too important to leave out. It's a human interest story that highlights the struggles and challenges we all face, no matter who we are. It might not be a feel-good or funny story, but it's special because it's so relatable.
At some point in our lives, we've all found ourselves on the outside looking in, trying to find a seat at the table. And that's what makes this story so universal - it speaks to all of us. Thanks for joining us as we dive into this compelling tale.
Today's guest is Dan Battagin, a former program manager for Microsoft and the genius behind Adventure Taco! Dan has an impressive track record as the former lead developer of Microsoft's Power Query as well as experience with multiple other software programs. We're excited to have him on the show, especially since he only agreed to appear in order to learn about Rob's video background. But once the conversation gets going, you will realize that Dan has a wealth of expertise in data cleansing and transformation that we can all learn from.
As the conversation progresses, we also get a glimpse into Microsoft's hiring practices of the past. Remember those brain teasers and psychological questions that used to be all the rage? We discuss how these inane questions often resulted in great candidates being passed up, simply because they didn't fit into the expected answer patterns. Fortunately, times have changed and we get to hear the story of how Rob helped keep Dan on at Microsoft after his initial internship.
In addition, Dan brings with him stories of his internship at Microsoft and the stories of programs ending before their time. And, as frequently happens, the conversation takes a turn to DAX and unsurprisingly, Dan is another former Microsoft manager who is not a well-versed DAX user. As Rob points out, DAX is the most accessible language to come out of Microsoft which leads us to question why so few former employees embrace the magic.
All this and a few Lego and Age of Empire references you won’t want to miss. And don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.
Also on this episode:
Brain Teasers for your next interview prep
Age of Empires
Ways to Fix Excel Not Recognizing Date Format
Adventure Taco
Fantasy Football
DAX Functions
Power Pivot and Power BI: The Excel User's Guide to DAX
Soda Machine Brain Teaser
12 Men on an Island Brain Teaser
LEGO Modular Buildings
On today’s episode, Charlie Ellis, former Program Manager at Microsoft and expert on the heart of excel, the calc engine, sits down for an amazing conversation. He brings with him stories of the evolution of Office that began with the retooling of Excel 2007. That reboot went on to become a veritable restart of the program that nearly wiped the slate clean by creating what would in essence become a new, more responsive product. With so many big changes happening at the same time inevitably there was some pushback from the users. Fortunately, for modern users, those changes were pushed through and eventually removed a ton of the frustrations of the original Excel.
This recording was unique. Emotions ran high, personality types were broken down, and all parties involved pulled back the curtain on their inner selves. Instead of just focusing on Impostor Syndrome, in this episode we hear more about being neurodivergent and how that can affect the work-life balance as well as the work personality that our coworkers are exposed to through social compassion. Of course, when things get that real, some conversations have to be taken with a grain of salt and ultimately removed from the episode. Don’t worry, at the end of the day, as with every episode and every topic, we all remain friends and perhaps even grow a little closer because of the conversation.
Through thoughtful redirection, everyone involved artfully steers the conversation back to less dangerous but no less interesting waters. While you don’t get to hear it all, you won’t want to miss this episode.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and be sure to share it with a friend. After all, friends don’t let friends miss Raw Data by P3 Adaptive.
Also on this episode:
The Ocean - Led Zeppelin
All my Love - Led Zeppelin
Leaders Need Not be Flashy, w/ Microsoft VP Dave Gainer
La La Land
La La Land Jazz Christmas Scene
A Single Complete Leader, w/P3 Pres and COO Kellan Danielson
What Are ActiveX controls
Septic Companions and Breaded Capacitors, w/ Chris Rae
Buckaroo Banzai - What is that even?
Mike Grant - Ultimate Hall of Fame
Furious George vs Condors - Ultimate National Championship
Paint.net
The Power Ranking Godfather, w/ Jeff Sagarin & Wayne Winston
Mark Cuban Crashed my Lecture w/IU's Dr. Wayne Winston
Was Excel really originally intended for the MAC?
Train Tracks and Chariots . . . really?
Today, special guest, Brad Weed of Interplace waxes philosophical about his and Rob’s shared time at Microsoft and we discover where the seeds of ethical capitalism were planted. He is a former designer at Microsoft who worked on every release of Office from 1992-2007 and played a major role in defining and refining the company's design and user research disciplines. He is an incredible entrepreneur with a passion for innovation who may forever be known as the perfector of the Microsoft Ruler.
Brad built upon his work as at Microsoft to become the founder/CEO of Interplace. With the use of the latest IoT technology, Brad's company is committed to developing sustainable transportation solutions that address major global challenges like urban congestion and climate change.
He stops in today to chat about the importance of using IoT technology to create sustainable transportation solutions. Brad's vast experience in design and user research makes him a pioneer in the industry, and his passion for addressing global challenges, like urban congestion and climate change, is second to none. As they delve into the topic, Brad shares his unique perspective on how IoT technology can help change the way we think about transportation and the environment. Don't miss out on this insightful conversation between old friends as they explore their history and the choices they made to find a better path for the future.
Also in this episode:
Kurt DelBene - Will Microsoft muscle rescue Healthcare.gov
Excel is the Most Functional of Programming Languages w/ Simon Peyton Jones
Microsoft Ruler
Solid State Active Cooling
The Cult of the Right Thing - Rob Collie
Readily Ticket’s Series of Fortunate Events, w/ David Wood
Delft University
r/Slow history
Guns Germs & Steel
Today, we welcome David Wood, founder of Eventene, to share the story of his exceptional journey through the ever-evolving field of computer technology and the extensive digital transformation it has undergone over the years. David will take us back to his high school days, where his interest in technology was first sparked by the purchase of a scientific calculator with programming capabilities. While nowadays, your cellphone may hold more computing power, back in the day, a programable calculator with 210 programable steps, 21 memories, and a full complement of scientific functions was the bleeding edge of technology . . . and for David, it was his gateway to the world of technology.
David shares his journey from that calculator to personal computers and discusses his personal induction into the world of coding through VisiCalc and Unicode. He draws a parallel between the impact of spreadsheets and the digital transformation that is currently taking place in his chosen field of event planning.
With the advent of cloud computing and smart mobile devices, event planning is undergoing a transformation, and David, thanks to his work with the Boy Scouts of America, is at the forefront of this change. As a result of the mass quantity of data required to plan a scout event, he became the creator of Eventene, an online software solution that promises to revolutionize event planning. David envisions Eventene to become as essential for event planners as spreadsheets are for working with numbers and data, saving time and effort for years to come, regardless of the scale of the event. This is a story that promises to be insightful and entertaining. After all, you have to enjoy reminiscing about the technology of days gone by.
And, as always, if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.
Also in this episode:
The Impostor Syndrome World Championships, w/ Jocelyn Collie
HP-34C Calculator
TRS 80 computer
Yoda Chong and the Treehouse of Wonder, w/ Donald Farmer
Unicode, in friendly terms: ASCII, UTF-8, code points, character encodings, and more
The Great Football Project Rides Again!
MoneyBall -- The Art of Winning an Unfair Game
Billy Beane
Setting Up for Success w/ David McKinnis
It’s Time for an Event Planning Moment
The Book that started it all:Power Pivot and Power BI - Rob Collie
The DAX Draft
ChatGPT
Today’s guest, Jocelyn Collie, is the co-founder of P3 Adaptive, and she brings a story or two to share with you on imposter syndrome. But what is imposter syndrome? Have you ever felt like a fake or a fraud despite your accomplishments? That is impostor syndrome. It's when you don't believe in your own abilities and attribute your success to things like luck or outside help or even view yourself as less accomplished or mediocre. And despite what you might think, it’s surprisingly common, especially among people, like Jocelyn, who are highly successful.
Jocelyn’s story is an incredible journey of overcoming barriers through an almost chameleon-like ability to add to her skill set. No matter where she was, she mastered an ever-growing skillset. Waiting tables, playing musical instruments, writing code, and even jamming for a roller derby team, she really has been there and back again. But you must ask yourself, was she blending in, or was she standing out for self-teaching what others could only dream of learning?
Find out on today’s episode! And, as always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform!
Also in this episode:
Tinkering is a Way of Life w/Darinee Louvau
Why is Everything So Slow w/ Scott Louvau
Environmental Engineering Meets the Data Gene, w/ MS MVP Alice Drummond
Hello Everybody - Rob's Blog
Camelot – The Holy Grail
Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy
Art Hellyer
The DAX Draft
The Sea Gals
Grave Danger Roller Derby
Grave Danger Group Photo with Natalie Fatality
On today’s episode, Chuck Vigeant, founder/CEO of Clearify, entrepreneur, speaker, leadership consultant, golf aficionado, and, the mastermind behind QQube, brings his most interesting stories of XML, ETL, and even some PGA. He discusses the frustration of accessing data in QuickBooks, sometimes a download can take 12+ hours. For many QuickBooks users, workarounds have become too complicated and time-consuming so they have resorted to deleting data yearly to save time. Can you imagine? Deleting data to access data? It’s madness!
Don’t worry, though, Chuck explains how Clearify provides an interface to give users a method to bolt QuickBooks up to Power BI through the QQubes ETL engine. Bottom line: he and his team put in the time and energy so that the users can reap the rewards of Power BI. He makes sure the data won’t be locked in. And, as an added bonus, he even throws in some great calculations for good measure (pun intended) as well as access to create custom calculations as needed.
It is an interesting visit, for sure, with Chuck asking some very thoughtful questions of our hosts. There may even be a genealogical tie or two that makes him family. Overall, his data story is more about helping others and making the world a better place. What more can you ask for than a feel-good story of data, positive energy, and contagious happiness.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and tune in next week for more Raw Data by P3 Adaptive.
Also on this episode:
QuickBooks
Peachtree Accounting
Jack Welch – Cut the bottom 10%
The DAX Draft
Rob Collie - Women in Data podcast appearance
The Power Ranking Godfather, w/Jeff Sagarin & Wayne Winston
Ratatouille - Life Lessons
Multiplicity - Michael Keaton
UnFrozen Caveman Lawyer
On today’s episode, Alice Drummond, co-founder of DiscoverEI gives the inside scoop on transitioning from environmental engineering to Microsoft Power Platform MVP. She shares her story of building a consultancy firm from the ground(water) up while increasing her own skill set. She and Rob wax poetic on the struggles of taking the plunge into the small business owners’ realm and neither sugarcoats the challenges faced.
During the course of the conversation, a common thread emerges on the people who advocate for the firm and seek to move to the Power Platform. Early adopters want revolution while the early majority want evolution. The bottom line, most companies are just getting started.
This episode isn’t just about starting a business, though, we get to hear the real, human side of the story. Alice highlights the best parts of the learning process: teaching, sharing knowledge and empowering others.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find us. Then, click subscribe for new episodes delivered straight to your inbox!
Also in this episode:
Fortran
Daniel Marsh-Patrick
Denali
Crossing the Chasm: Book
Upright: Season 1
When its winner takes all, it’s the unexpected choice that provides the most impressive results. Who made the bold moves? Three Power BI DAX experts duke it out in a game of "Choose it or Lose it" with 8 cutthroat rounds of DAX Draft!
Your competitors:
- Rob Collie – the founder of P3 Adaptive. He wrote the book on DAX.
- Ed Hansberry – a 13-time Microsoft MVP with an extensive track record of creating innovative DAX solutions both in the community forums and for his clients. An avid chess player who is always two moves ahead.
- Leigh Ann Thibadoux - an incredibly skilled DAX P3 Adaptive expert who fuses her specialization in Finance and Accounting skills with her passion for process automation to rapidly create innovative DAX solutions.
- Bill Sundwall – P3 Adaptive Expert and today’s guest referee, Bill has a passion for expanding the data community via education and mentoring.
The Challenge: DAX DRAFT
Our host Rob Collie invented the game, chose his competition, and made up the rules... but can he win? The competition will be tough. Most importantly, will Rob’s OG DAX outmaneuver modern refined DAX?
The Rules are simple, eight rounds with a total of 24 functions taken off of the list with the remaining functions available to everyone. The remaining, undrafted functions at the end of the exercise are open for use by all. Once the draft has occurred, the question is: can you survive without the functions drafted by the competition? To keep our players honest, guest referee Bill Sundwall will if an actual workaround exists. Bill’s ruling will be final.
Can Rob Collie’s Street DAX scrape by? Will 15-time Microsoft MVP Ed Hansberry’s mental compilation of functions and chess moves prevail? Or can scrappy P3 Adaptive newcomer Leigh Ann Thibadoux blindside both?
Listen now to find out!
Think you have what it takes to take down the DAX Draft winner? Let us know on social media and be sure to check out our career page for current openings!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.
In this episode, Brian Knight, founder of Pragmatic Works, describes his accidental entrance into the field of technology. From a chance job offer to being “that guy” who hit the server rebuild button, you won’t want to miss this data origin story. Only someone like Brian could get such a great start by nuking a database and turning it into a DBA career where he would become both a prolific community member and content creator.
While reminiscing with Tom about SQL and the glory days of being a DBA, Brian admits that his focus has recently shifted to Power Apps. When asked why he shares that the lure of building in a couple of days what in the past would have taken several years was just too strong.
It isn’t just about the past, though, as the crew gets into a lively discussion on AI and its future impact on the arts. No spoilers here but it may just be that AI can be a beneficial part of creative society, not by replacing people as artists but by augmenting the existing skillset of current and future artists in a similar way the Power Platform enhanced skills of people in tech to create the Citizen Developers we all know and love.
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find us.
Also on this episode:
SQL Server Central
Tom’s blog: Operations Manager and SQL Server
Septic Companions and Breaded Capacitors, w/ Chris Rae
GitHub Copilot
Open AI
Two QB Rob Blog
Cat in the Hat: Calculatus Eliminatus
Today, Nicole Janeway Bills, community organizer for Data Strategy Professionals, stops by with the inner scoop on data training, cryptocurrency, tokens, scandal, fraud, and the trauma of moving. At the time of recording, Nicole was an employee of FTX. During the podcast, she shared tales of last-minute relocations and the expense of attaining career goals right as an unraveling began. As a full-stack engineer with an exceptional data background, Nicole was able to find the bright side of her incomplete move by utilizing the extra time she discovered to further assist others with their certifications.
Among the topics discussed in this episode, Rob and Nicole delve into the perceptions of data people, developers, and engineers. They determine that, historically, having the data gene anecdotally meant you weren’t on the leadership team. Some data professionals were even told to stop talking about data and spreadsheets to move up. Fortunately, times have changed, and a seismic shift has been made to encourage data proficiency for all levels of an organization.
Additionally, just for fun, Nicole shares a subtle meeting tip: Forget Rob’s Scotty Principle on looking busy/important, go with the lunch principle. Eat during the meeting to show that you are working very hard the rest of the day! If that doesn’t work, go with the field principle. Roll up your sleeves for the same effect!
If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to click the link below and subscribe for weekly episodes delivered directly to your inbox. Have a data day!
Also on this episode:
FTX Bankruptcy
Yoda Chong and the Treehouse of Wonder, w/ Donald Farmer
Medium – Stay Curious
OG I Can Has Cheezburger Meme
Coach Mike Tomlin interview
Crypto-Fantasy Leftists are an Exclusive Tribe, w/ Davis Mattek
Speechless
Samuel L Jackson: Hostage Scoop
Software Hall of Fame: Raw Data by P3
The Software Hall of Fame Website
P3 Adaptive Training
P3 Adaptive Careers
Pulp Fiction: Jules Winnfield
Rob Collie Episode of Data Engineering podcast
War Pigs Jonah Hill
Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery
On today’s episode, we sit down with 11-time Microsoft MVP Belinda Allen as she shares her accidental data origin story. As the co-author of two books and a prolific Power Platform blogger, Belinda has a unique perspective on business intrigue, data discoveries, and reporting solutions. With her penchant for pivot tables, she is a classic example of a citizen developer, and she generously shares her knowledge with the communities at large through her writing, public speaking, and training. In fact, for several years she was a top contender in the Excel Shootout series, and while underappreciated, her sentiment analysis provided food for thought and innovative inspiration for businesses across the size spectrum and helped convert many people to the Power Platform.
Today, she joins Rob in a fascinating recollection of the birth of the Power Platform. From the genius evolution of Power BI through the first incarnation of Power Pivot through the initial attempt at Power BI in SharePoint, they followed Siren’s call of DAX and Power Query to navigate the ever-changing waters of data analytics. Together they recount the challenges of mastering the self-serve data revolution while sharing their appreciation for Power BI.
Also on this episode:
Data Explorer
Power Pivot
Distinct Count
What happened to Microsoft's Convergence conference?
Mariana Gomez: Power Platform
Flic buttons
Seth Goden's blog
Chris Wagner
Canvas Apps
Microsoft's Sentiment Analysis
Today, we reunite two old friends with a penchant for writing books for people adjacent to tech as we welcome Miguel Escobar to the show. If you use Power Query or Power BI, you might have heard of Miguel. He is the co-author of several books on Power Query, Power BI, Power Pivot, and DAX. He is also part of the expert trifecta that created Skill Wave training and he is now an integral part of Microsoft working to make Power Query better for all users. He and Rob reminisce about book deals, DAX, training, and writing in a voice for the people, instead of for the tech giants. But, most importantly, you get the inside scoop on the data-cleaning drudgery that was Excel and analytics before the DAX and Power Query data revolution.
Miguel and Rob trade entertaining stories of how Excel gives people a competitive edge in the job market but somehow remains a fundamentally underappreciated skill during the educational years. After all, it’s not just about the tool, what matters is what people do with it, how they use it, and how it has changed the trajectory of their careers. After hearing a few of these stories, you’re going to want to send a tweet to Tom to encourage him to finally admit that Power Query deserves a spot in the Software Hall of Fame.
This episode isn’t all about Power Query, though as we also learn a little about the eclectic taste in music our hosts share as well as some interesting tidbits regarding songwriting and the musical process. Miguel opens up about his passion for music and composition as he shares some personal insight into the process of collaborating and creating music in the digital world. If you listen closely, you can even hear some of his work spliced into this podcast in a musical first for us. Of course, you can hear Miguel’s song: Someday, Somehow (feat. Chris Cron) in its entirety across multiple musical platforms. Be sure to give it a listen and share it with a friend.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find us.
Also in this episode:
Good Will Hunting – I don’t understand the piano
Jerry was a race car driver
Miguel Escobar: Geo Flow using Panama's Census Data
DAX formulas for power pivot: A Simple Guide to the Excel Revolution
Major Key / Minor Key culturally different
Box Office Mojo
Mr. Excel
M is for (Data) Monkey
Bell Biv DeVoe
Johnny Cash: Hurt
Blues Traveler: Hook
Rocksmith
Guitar Pro
Power Query online
Software Hall of Fame Podcast
Power Query Saves Christmas w/ Gus Miranda
On today’s episode, we sit down with P3 Adaptive’s own Justin Mannhardt to get the inside scoop on delivering results and backing into data infrastructure, aka the origin story of P3 Adaptive’s Solutions Architect Team and the impact it can have on an analytics project. Justin explains the expanded focus to fulfill analytics needs through a more holistic approach to drive adoption and deliver results. With his own experience, he explains how results must sometimes come first as a proof of concept but once results are verified, more support is often needed to ensure a smooth functioning process. Rob often refers to this as the faucet first analogy, and it has the power to convince the exec team that analytics can be fruitful for businesses of all sizes.
We don’t just talk shop, though, we also learn how Justin discovered his affinity for data after an educational background in music. And, for fun, you get to hear Justin’s P3 Adaptive Diabolical Assessment story and how he increased his data skills and learned Power BI because he wanted to work for P3 Adaptive. He gets brutally honest about his interview and shares how he exited the process the first time only to come back and ace the process to become one of P3’s finest solution architects!
Additionally, you can hear about the recent P3 Adaptive employee retreat in Miami where many of our team met face to face for the first time and, to sound a little cheesy, it was a lot like coming home. Family pranks and tacos by the pool makes a great feel-good story as we come into the holiday season.
Finally, if you enjoyed hearing Justin’s story, be sure to catch him next week presenting at the PASS Data Community Summit. Justin will be on site with the P3 Adaptive team sharing his knowledge and presenting a session on snapshotting your CRM data with Azure Synapse. Be sure to catch him live or on the hybrid video feed. If you are in Seattle, stop by the booth and tell him Mullet Man sent you. He’ll know what you mean!
Also on this episode:
Why was Ronald McDonald cancelled?
Faucets v Plumbing blog
Bugs Bunny left turn at Albuquerque
Mel Brooks - Space Balls
Did Cortez burn his ships in the harbor?
P3 Adaptive Advanced DAX training
Chumbawamba
This is Pop Abba episode
Def Leppard – Pyromania
Rob P3 Fantasy Football gloat video
Meatloaf – Two Out of Three Ain't Bad
Today’s guest, Gustavo Miranda, started his career in a research adjacent Program Evaluation position using Power Pivot Slicers in a non-Power Pivot table before he was introduced and lured by the power of the Power Platform. He shares his story of how reducing friction and creating automation introduced even non-data people to the concept that data quality matters. Most importantly, though, today you will learn the underdog story of how Power Query saved Christmas during the Kronos Hack of 2021. Get the inside scoop from crisis meeting to crisis meeting until the moment when Gus stood up to save the day. While Gus did the heavy lifting, a task force soon formed to collectively finish the project. While other multi-million-dollar companies were paralyzed, shocked, and attempting to ad-hoc calculate payroll and vacations, often incorrectly, Gus’s task force used Power Query to create an effective solution in time to prevent employees from missing Christmas with their families. Even Tom must agree that tales like this really show the power of Power Query’s ETL abilities.
Also in today’s episode, we learn the origin story of slicers in Excel, how Rob and Amir were behind their creation by seducing the Excel team, trading resources, and creating the opportunity for Microsoft to back into needing a separate application to maximize the impact of those slicers. That application? Power BI desktop. In an exciting tale of what could have been, we also hear the story of the Power BI canvas in Excel that was never meant to be as well as the lessons learned: never try to add truly new capabilities to Excel or you end up with Power View. As our friend Scott Esti used to say there are two kinds of people in the world, people who hate Power View and those who haven't used it!
All this and more on today’s episode! Be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find us.
Also on this episode:
Nash Equilibrium / Prisoner's Delimma
The truth behind recycling
Program evaluation
He may only need his eyes checked ...
Calculation Groups in Power BI
Microsoft's Power View
Gilligan’s Island theme song
Zeno's paradox
Gus's P3 Blog - Using Power Query to Transform and Combine Online Statscan Data
Matt Masson - Deep Dive Into the Power From the Language
Active v Inactive Relationships
Kronos hack disrupts payroll
Live action How the Grinch Stole Christmas
Live action Cat in the Hat
Abyss - Bomb at the bottom of the sea (Don't look Tom!)
Rumble in the Jungle George Foreman - Muhammad Ali
Guns and Roses – It’s so easy
Blown Away – Tommy Lee Jones
Tommy Lee Jones Montage
Sankey (Diagram)
Fight Club - Corn Flower Blue
G Rated Fight Club
Today we welcome to the show Scott Louvau, twice retired from Microsoft and now focused on his Relentless Optimizer blog, he is our second twice retired from Microsoft guest. If his last name sounds familiar, it should be. Several weeks back, his partner, Darinee Louvau was our guest. Her absolute enthusiasm caused us to seek out the other half of the equation and invite Scott to share his take on life at and after Microsoft as well as his data origin story. How exactly did Scott go from a small vineyard in North California to being twice retired from Microsoft and what set him on the technological path?
Like Darinee, games were Scott’s gateway drug to technology. While growing up in a home with software programming parents, Scott was exposed to how programs work and most importantly, granted access to tinker with the hardware side as well. Frustration with slow gameplay or loading freezes led to the educational process as Scott learned to free up resources, jettison drives, and optimize the remaining parts to make the gameplay better, faster, and longer. In a time when there was no internet full of resources available, debugging issues was both more challenging and more intense. Back in the day, if you wanted to play, you had to make it work on the system you had.
Scott used these hard-earned skills between high school and college as he started working as an internal software developer before switching to a programming track at college, falling in love, and joining the dream team at Microsoft. He found joy in automation both for Microsoft’s clients and for his team, going on to reduce frustration in debugging while increasing optimization in the process. It isn’t all programming and coding today though, as we also delve into Starbucks Cold Brew Refill Hacks and using AI to dominate game levels. Stuck on a level of Kingdom Rush? You can find a solution for that and more, in this episode.
As always, if you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find us. And, be sure to subscribe below for new episodes delivered directly to your inbox.
Also on this episode:
Tinkering is a way of life w/ Darinee Louvau
Apple IIGS
Luggable Computer
Power Builder
Paper Games of Kids in the 90s
Terminator gets squashed
STUXNET: The Virus that Almost Started WW3
Visual Studio
Visual Slick Editor
Inverted word index
A most generous mentor w/ Microsofts' Dany Hoter
Ballmer's Peak
Google eats RAM cookies
Scott’s Relentless Optimizer Blog
Try xForm
Kingdom Rush
Kingdom Rush AI
Boom Beach
World of Warcraft Subscription Fees
Vanguard ownership/profits
On today’s episode P3 Adaptive Principal Consultant extraordinaire, Narayana Windenberger sits down for a chat on data, travel, and the ethics of the financial markets. Nar is a 5-year veteran of P3 with an unforgettable name and a penchant for being a digital nomad. Whether he is working from the Midwest, Germany, or enjoying hang gliding in San Diego, Nar puts the remote in remote work and regardless of his location, still creates epic analytic masterpieces. Nar also has the distinction of being the author of a P3 Adaptive blog that shook the Power BI world to its core in 2020 and earned him the title of Power BI Super Villain. His blog on the DAX function invented to optimize other DAX made such an impact that a disclaimer had to be placed to temper the responses.
It isn’t all fun and games, though, Nar, Rob, and Tom also delve into the inner workings of financial markets and hedge funds and attempt to differentiate between the evils of a hedge fund and the potential benevolence of a hedge fund manager. When are losses a gain and gains a loss? Listen to today’s episode to find out!
Don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help new listeners find our show.
Also on this episode:
Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego
Tandem hang gliding
Why do Hawks Circle
Myth Busters: Bubble Trouble
P3 Blog: Distinct count in PowerPivot V2 is Much Faster
Ray Dalio: Principles
Former Facebook Executive
Eminem I'm Still Standing
Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps
Far Side comic: Wolves/Neighbors
P3 Blog: OPTIMIZEDAX
Good Will Hunting
The Software Hall of Fame, w/ Microsoft’s Conor Cunningham
What is Data May Never Die, w/ Scree
Chess online
On today’s episode, we sit down with educator, researcher, and all-around information guru Simon Peyton Jones to learn all about programming languages and their impact on hardware, software, and research/development. Simon also brings some professional insight into Excel as a programing language. Oddly enough, around the time Rob met Simon, Rob began to think of Excel as a programming language. In order to be a language, the formulas have to deal with both space and time, so Excel formula language absolutely fits the bill. Just be careful how you code. On older systems, if you perform a VLOOKUP at the same time as a nested IF, it might disrupt the space-time continuum and bring about the blue screen of death!
As an engineering fellow at Epic Games, a researcher for Microsoft Research Cambridge, and a professor at Glasgow University, Simon also brings a unique perspective on changing the educational system to include base learning on computer science as part of general education. Not only did Simon step up and suggest change, but he also followed through and created a coalition to guide the program and ensure future expansion as needed. When Simon talks about research, people listen!
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast
Also in this episode:
Simon Peyton Jones’s bookmarks!
Alonzo Church – Lambda Calculus
Touring machine
Automata Theory
LAMBDA: The Ultimate Excel worksheet function. (Andy Gordon, Simon Peyton Jones)
LISP functional language
Microsoft Research – Cambridge
Arthur Norman – functional programming
John Backus Turing Award
Setting up for Success w/David McKinnis
Declarative Programing
Immutability Changes Everything
Computing at School – CAS
Scratch - Computer Programming
Logo - Apple
Estimating the value of Pi using Monte Carlo
Code.org
Tesla One-Way Valve
Turing Tumble
Robo Rally Board Game
Unreal Engine
Joe Duffy on Transactional Memory
Haskell Language
Today we bring in the big guns, a Microsoft MVP and Power Platform advocacy team lead, and a true Power Platform aficionado: April Dunnam. In the realm of social media, April is known as the Woman who Codes, the SharePoint Siren, and the Karaoke Queen with a passion for all things Power: Power BI, Power Apps, Power Automate, Power Virtual Agents, and Power Pages. In this episode we get April’s origin story, starting with the moment she was the intern tossed into the deep end of the SharePoint pool, all the way to her personal discovery of the better way.
April shares her philosophy on bringing people to the dark side of app building: First, find someone who has a certain level of curiosity and knows there has to be a better way. Those are the future Power Apps Citizen Developers. Hook those people with the polished side by showing them a functional app, then reel them in through the backend drag and drop, no code, low code magic that is the Power Platform. April explains that people tend to have a short attention span; they need the finished product before you show them how simple the build process can be.
Later on, Rob and April discuss the biggest opportunity for improvement in the Power Platform, the lack of a consistent programming language. With the build-by-example function in Power Apps, the technology is growing and, April suggests that one day there may be a unified Power language. Until then, Rob will continue to hate M and use his phone-a-friend card for help in Power Query.
All this and more in this episode. And don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform to help others find our people-centric data podcast.
Also in this Episode:
April Dunnam’s Youtube
Paul Giamatti Le Café de Balzac
The Evolution of SharePoint w Denise Traboona and Adam Harmetz
The Man of a Thousand Jobs w/ Kevin Overstreet
Lego Mindstorms
InfoPath
Into the Dataverse w/ James Oleinik
Power Virtual Agents
GitHub CoPilot and GPT-3
Power Users Microsoft Site
April O’Neil - TMNT
In today’s episode, we welcome Eric Vigesaa of Microsoft to the show. This special guest has a decades-long relationship with our host. According to Rob, Eric can always be counted on as a partner in cynical observations. Rob describes Eric as one of the rare breeds that enjoy the excitement of building an emergency solution. Someone who prefers a shorter distance between the software and the problem. The closer he is to impact, the more satisfying the solution becomes to him. Sardonically, Eric is also like the groundhog of Microsoft, emerging from IT, looking around, seeing the shadow, and returning back to IT: empowered, passionate, and skilled. Eric describes his non-IT time as an evolutionary course that allowed him to explore and grow his aptitude.
Also in today’s episode, Rob and Eric describe the beginning phase of Microsoft’s shift to computing in the cloud and the project carnage in its wake. Promising projects suddenly found themselves on the road to nowhere and are now, nowhere to be found . . . with one popular exception: streamlined conditional formatting. That simplistic innovation not only made it out of the darkness to see the light of day but also became Rob’s gateway drug to audience participation. Other innovations weren’t so lucky. Eric and Rob describe what happened to a multitude of promising projects that were sliced, diced, julienned, and unable to survive cloud modernization at Microsoft. The history might pull you in, but it’s the dry wit that will keep you through the end.
As a bonus, today you also get at least one bad Star Wars joke . . . and don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode or the joke, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and be sure to subscribe to get new episodes delivered to your inbox.
Also in this Episode:
The Software Hall of Fame, w/ Microsoft's Conor Cunningham
Queen’s Gambit
Mike Tomlin Interview - Your teaching is failing
Kill Bill Relief or Regret
Power Pivot and Power BI: The Excel User's Guide to DAX, Power Query, Power BI & Power Pivot in Excel 2010-2016 - by Rob Collie
The Cloud is Powered by People w/Jeff DeVerter
The Evolution of SharePoint w/ Denise Trabona and Adam Harmetz
Winchester Mystery House
A Most Generous Mentor w/ Microsoft's Dany Hoter
Skynet becomes Self-Aware
Blade Runner - Tears in Rain
On this episode, we are bringing in a true leader in workplace diversity, Sadie St. Lawrence from Women in Data! Be prepared to be surprised when you learn that Sadie’s idea of diversity is more of a value-driven balance that benefits all people regardless of gender. Improvements, she points out, made in the workplace under the guise of removing gender disparity enhance the workplace for all employees, not just for a single demographic.
Sadie is an incredible person with an incredible story that started in a male-dominated career where she spent her early years working on improvements within the industry. Her persistence and determination to make the industry more diverse led to her becoming the Founder and CEO of Women in Data. Sadie’s career journey centered around providing support and guidance to those around her and she certainly found her calling: empowering and mentoring women to find success in the world of data.
This episode is 100% about the human side and, through the recording process, Sadie indirectly contributed to a recent change in P3 Adaptive’s own job descriptions. The conversation highlighted the disproportional labor divide in homes that was exacerbated during the pandemic. This led to a discussion on why so many women left the workforce during the pandemic and didn’t return, often to provide care for children and other family members. It even highlighted how women seeking a job, might see expected travel as a requirement that, due to family responsibilities, might cause them to not apply, even if they are more than qualified for the position. That change has been reflected in our current career opportunities and can be found on the P3 Adaptive Career Page. Here’s a hint, our travel policy has been updated. Thank you, Sadie, for the insight!
As always, if you enjoyed the show, be sure to hit the subscribe button below to have new episodes delivered to your inbox. You never know who the next guest will be on the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast!
Also in this episode:
Scantron tests
Web 3.0: decentralized blockchain introduction
Data Careers in the Military
Dark Dashboards
Occasionally described as “Addictive, stupidly addictive,” this episode delves into the insanity that is Pokémon Go and is dedicated to the people and the technology behind mapping and catching Pokémon. Shortly after its 2016 release, Pokémon Go became the most successful game in history and, at one point, surpassed both Tinder and Twitter growth with usage time beating other social media apps.
Why does this “Got to Catch Them All!” mentality transcends technology? Is it the nostalgia? The family bonding time? Meeting new people and raiding gyms? Or is it maybe a little bit more? In today’s recording, you get to hear anecdotes on family bonding, date nights, and even meeting complete strangers to talk Pokémon. Most importantly, though, you get to meet the man behind IndyPokemap.com, Mike Ellis, and learn how he turned his Poké-hobby into a greener way to play in a globally supported community!
Don’t worry, this episode is teen friendly, no hacking techniques are discussed, just data personalization with gentile manners. After all, no honest mapper wanted to scan another mapper’s territory. And forget server farms, this episode includes all the details of iPhone farming with a shout-out to the suffrage that occurred during the downtime when mappers were forced to switch from Python to cellphones.
A few of the Interesting inside data facts on Pokémon you will learn today include:
- How many Poké Stops in Indy?
- The logic behind spawn points.
- The how to on submitting poké spots.
And, don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and share it with a friend. Just like Pokémon Go, Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is better when shared.
Also in this episode:
Pokémon Go!
Pokémon Raids
Pokémon Map shut down by Niantic
Pokémon Go-tcha!
Pokémon Red Ball
Niantic
Harry Potter and the Wizards Unite Fan Fest
IndyPokémap.com
Dog Attack Episode: A Mechanical Clutch Isn't a Steampunk Purse, w/Bill Sundwall
Traveling Salesperson problem
Pivot table sorting
The Software Hall of Fame, w/Microsoft's Conor Cunningham
Datel Go-tcha Ranger
Ingress by Niantic
VMWare Explorer
Pokémon pronunciation
Niantic Wayfarer
Fisher’s Nickel Plate Boss Battle
Have you ever been curious about what moving to the cloud really means? Is it a one-and-done move or is it more? Today’s guest, Jeff DeVerter, Chief Technology Evangelist of RackSpace, breaks down the cloud, cloud-based services, and how it can impact your business. From an engineering point of view to the creation of a supply chain for data, Jeff describes the trends and implications facing ingress, egress, and utilization of the ever-growing volume of data that companies curate. He even shines a light on the often hidden or disguised cost of doing business in the cloud, the dreaded egress fees, and shares tips for lowering your cost of data utilization. After all, Jeff considers moving to the cloud as a change of business, not a change of processes.
Don’t worry, this episode isn’t just about the cloud. Rob and Jeff share a backstory of server farms and negative scaling that is sure to entertain. Since cloud services didn’t always exist, the original stop-gap method to run models for Power Pivot was on a SharePoint server. We learn from their experience that when you have an issue, it can’t always be solved by throwing hardware at it. While the additional hardware was ineffective, this method did lead to discoveries that were eventually shared through the user experience and directly led to a more robust Power BI Cloud Service.
Finally, Jeff, Rob, and Tom discuss the successful evolution of a company’s data strategy and the 4 phases: Data Aware, Data Literate, Data Fluent, and Data Affluent. Discover where your company falls and how to move to the next phase of development.
Don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to help others find our show by leaving us a review on your favorite Podcast Platform.
Also in this episode:
Rackspace Acquires SharePoint911
ML Ops
ML & Algorithms Hit the Bigtime, w/DataRobot's Diego Oppenheimer
Data Robot
FinOps.org
CloudReach
Seinfeld: Jimmy's Jumps High
Silver Fox Advisors
Parenthood – TV series
Keebler Tato Skins
Facts of Life Theme Song
Different Strokes Theme
Barney Miller Theme
A Most Generous Mentor, w/ Microsoft's Dany Hoter
Raiders of the Lost Ark – warehouse
Crossing the Chasm - book
Speak Softly but Pack a Mean Elbow, w/ Jen Stirrup
City Slickers - One Thing
Today we welcome David McKinnis of Tech DNA to the show. David is Microsoft alumni from the days before the development of Darwin, the software that revolutionized install, uninstall, and repair for Windows-supported programs. Prior to Rob and Dave’s work on Darwin, software installation was a long and cumbersome project that often-included multiple floppy disks and the patience of a saint and Windows uninstall was rarely considered. Post Darwin, those tasks are often taken for granted. While the development process was bug-riddled, the result was reliable performance, seamless integration, and several great stories.
This episode isn’t all about software and development though, we already did our first Software Hall of Fame episode. This is about the people behind the process and their trials and tribulations. To understand those stories, we must pull back the curtain on the ever-evolving internal development process of Microsoft and shine a light on what goes on behind the conference room doors.
Also today, David and Rob reminisce about how Rob was ambushed in a meeting by a rival development team. That team came prepared with multiple handouts explaining why Rob’s project sucked. Don’t worry, they also share the resolution of the story and how fate (and the Fed) intervened on Rob’s behalf to salvage the program . . . and Rob’s credibility. That is a story you won’t want to miss, and it is only found here, on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive.
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe to have new episodes delivered straight to your inbox.
Also on this episode:
Gartner on the cost of Windows
Fed sues Microsoft
Mitch Hedberg - Picture when I was younger
TEALS Program– Microsoft
Technophobes Make Amazing Technologists, w/ Kerry Kolosko
A Single Complete Leader, w/ P3 Pres and COO Kellan Danielson
Orange Theory Fitness
Today, we bring you a little something different, in this episode, we focus not on people, but on the software itself. Today, we create the Software Hall of Fame, set the rules, and get down to building the inaugural class with special guest Coner Cunningham. Coner’s multi-decade software skill set combined with his fun personality makes him a perfect fit to be the final member of the initial tribunal of software critics. This tribunal will step up to fill a long-standing void in an episode that will run the gamut of emotions: Joy, anger, exasperation, and maybe even a little zen. Shockingly, this episode may even set a record for the most words spoken during an episode by co-host Thomas LaRock due to the sheer volatility of the topic at hand.
The rules are simple, to be approved the nominees must be a product (can be free but cannot be a protocol), be software, and be judged on three criteria: Novelty, Difficulty, and Impact. To be inducted, the product must achieve an overall score of four points or higher.
As a bonus, we have compiled the software and have curated a special website just for this episode. It is a work in progress and you should be able to submit your feedback on our choices by leaving comments, questions, concerns, and/or character assassinations.
Since no Hall of Fame episode would be complete without a sports reference (or two) Rob also includes sage wisdom concerning what constitutes a sport . . . or what SHOULD constitute a sport worthy of watching on TV. Some of those choices are sure to be more controversial than the software picks so be sure to listen to the end and see if your favorite sport made the cut and which could make the cut by implementing paintball snipers. It is sure to be surprising!
As always, if you enjoy this episode, connect with us on social media to be a part of the conversation and to recommend future guests and topics.
Also in this episode:
The Software Hall of Fame
Toward the Sounds of Chaos: 30
Clerks, The movie
Leaders Need Not be Flashy, w/ Microsoft VP Dave Gainer
Leisure Suit Larry
Red Dead Redemption
Today, we welcome to the show the most transparent international man of mystery, Dany Hoter. Working on his 5th stint with Microsoft and living his best life in his 8th decade, Dany brings both wisdom and fun to those around him. He brings a passion and joy for teaching to his training sessions and always manages to create a connection between people and technology. Of course, he also has a long-storied past with Rob, and together they share the responsibility for what some view as the most expensive trip billed to Microsoft by non-executives. From luxury accommodations to indulgent automobiles, they expensed it all.
It wasn’t all global jet setting, however, as these two comprised the Dream Team that put the polish on Power Pivot and laid the groundwork for Power Query. Their hard work and dedication paid off as Dany and Rob banded together in their shared time at Microsoft to save the world from an error-filled, rushed incarnation of bi-directional relationships. In retrospect, however, the conversation about this brought up a story that many may prefer to never hear. It seems that amidst all the jet setting, our dear host, Rob Collie, was busy launching a cruise missile with the sole purpose of pissing off the advanced pivot table users.
What heinous act did he commit? Rob was directly involved in changing the default of pivot tables to compact. While it did enlarge the user base by helping people feel more comfortable with pivot tables, advanced user rage is still alive and well on Twitter.
All of this and more on this episode of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, where data meets the human element. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to leave a review on your favorite platform to help others find us!
Also on this show:
Tinkering is a Way of Life w/ Darinee Louvau
Yoda Chong and the Treehouse of Wonder, w/ Donald Farmer
The Italians – Marco and Alberto
Ikigai Venn Diagram
Silicon Valley: Movember clip - mustache filter
Kusto v SQL
KQL - Kusto Query Language
Cube Functions in Excel
Rob on Twitter – to allow more bashing on the compact view
Hello friends! On the show today, we have a special treat for you. Straight from the Outback, recorded past midnight, and punny as hell, Kerry Kolosko, freshly minted, accidental Microsoft Data Platform MVP. An avid fan of JIT learning (Just In Time) and a follower of the teachings of Google, Kerry is a self-professed technophobe whose desire to remove redundancies just won’t let her disconnect. She has a storied past of chasing answers and creating solutions. She truly is living the dream by dabbling in every interesting technology that comes her way. From Array formulas to Deneb, learning on the fly to save time and frustration is Kerry’s superpower.
That’s not all! Today, we also dig into the age-old question of what hidden fear do many Power BI users share? That great shared doubt when someone asks for the .PBIX file. The irrational trepidation. The spurt of adrenaline. What one small, inconsequential fear do most OG Dax pros share?
BADAXAPHOBIA: The fear of being judged for less attractive DAX coding.
Well, friends, we are here to tell you that it is an unfounded fear is. OG DAX was more readable, easily digestible, and inherently more interesting before it was streamlined into mere code. Rob and Kerry agree that bad DAX should enjoy a comeback, and nobody should fear embarrassment for writing human-style DAX.
All this and more on today’s episode.
Don’t forget, if you enjoyed this episode, send a link to a friend. Friends don’t let friends miss Raw Data by P3 Adaptive where we celebrate data, with the human element.
Also on this episode:
"MVPness" Doesn't Sound Quite Right w/ MS MVP Ed Hansberry
Deneb - Declarative Visualization in Power BI
What is Data May Never Die w/ Scree
Kerry Kolosko Blog - Visualisations
Leaders Need Not Be Flashy, w/ Microsoft VP Dave Gainer
LetterKenny: Power BI Workout
Abbey Road
Paint.net
Mullet Man - Dax The Way
Today’s guest, Darinee Louvau, is twice retired from Microsoft and one of the few people who admit to an admiration of testing in production. Darinee is an amazingly gifted person. From hosting LAN parties in her Tween and Teen years to designing and building gaming crates for those parties, she is not afraid of getting her hands dirty. A self-proclaimed fan of lowering the cost of iterations, she moved up quickly through the ranks to become program manager for Microsoft on projects such as Answers, Bing, and even the streaming service, Mixer. She is a hands-on thinker, doer, and creator. We can guarantee you will never find anyone else with her can-do attitude.
Darinee shares how she personally prepares for inevitable mistakes in one of her hobbies by sewing with thrifted sheets to reduce costs. Using thrifted materials empowers her to make mistakes and continue to iterate. By using cheap materials to power each testing iteration she can lower the overall cost of iteration to get straight to the thing that matters, testing a solution against the actual live circumstance of what you really need to know. (Psst! Darinee . . . your inner developer is showing. 😊)
Also in today’s show, we learn the answer to the age-old question of “What happens to the code when Microsoft kills it” as well as the secret behind how search engines return answers. The one thing you won’t find in today’s episode is a binary answer about success. Darinee explains that it doesn’t exist and if you think it does, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Sage advice for our listeners.
If you enjoy this episode, be sure to leave a review on your favorite platform as reviews help new listeners find us. And be sure you subscribe to receive new episodes in your inbox every week. You never know what you will hear when data gets raw!
Also in this episode:
Command and Conquer
Duke Nukem 3D
Quake
LAN party
Mixer – Microsoft streaming shuts down
Home School Valedictorian by Adelitas Way
Chris Rae Podcast Episode
Raspberry Pi
The Useless Box
Microsoft Bob - Killed by Microsoft
Halo Reach in Firefight mode
Toyota Century
Darinee on P3 Adaptive Blog - A 48 hour case study from Bing - Zero to Sixty :)
Lost wax method in 3d printing
With a background in finance and a history of great communication and a passion for problem-solving, Ed Hansberry, an Assistant Director with P3 Adaptive, embodies the spirit of P3 Adaptive.
Ed was recently awarded his 13th Microsoft MVP Award so of course, we wanted to know more about his achievement, his passions, his adaptability, and most of all, his insights on change so we invited him to join us today for a chat. Early on, in the conversation, Rob and Ed delve into defining change and that led to a lively discussion on the process of change, the successful process of change, and the difference between them. Here’s a hint, it’s always the people! Knowing that people drive success, Ed extensively volunteers his time in the Microsoft Power BI User Community supporting users around the world with problems and questions around Power BI and, since he has been recognized as a Super User by Microsoft, we really can say that helping people is his superpower. He is leading change one question at a time.
This episode isn’t just about change, though, the evolution of technology and software is embedded throughout the conversation from cube functions to the hidden power of the innocuously named OLAP dropdown in Excel. And finally, we get some great insight on formerly cutting-edge technology that has since gone obsolete. We hear a firsthand account of the tragic end of the Microsoft phone. You never know what you will learn when the conversation starts to flow.
As always, be sure to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform and tell a friend about Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, where data meets the human element.
Also on this episode:
iPaQ
N NTP
Not Necessarily the News
NNTNs: All about Sniglets
That Tufte book . . .
MDX in Excel
Cube Functions in Excel
Disconnected Slicers with DAX Variables & SELECTEDVALUES
Field Parameters in Power Bi
Skynet
Yoda Chong and the Treehouse of Wonder, w/ Donald Farmer
Tabluar Editor
DAX Studio
A Single Complete Leader, w/ P3 Pres & COO Kellan Danielson
Who Moved My Cheese
As we continue to share the personal stories of the exceptional people who make up P3 Adaptive, today’s guest is a little less visible in the company, not because of his skills or reputation, but because he is not a member of our visible client services team. Alex Sanabria is a member of the GroDiv team here. His team is on the backend, taking care of marketing, digital assets, and all things PR. While he may not be the public face of P3, he perfectly embodies the spirit. He is scrappy, dedicated, determined, and most of all, he has a big heart to bring to any challenge. Today, we are bringing you the story of a man from a humble background who followed his family’s advice and struck out to make his own luck. And make his luck he has.
As our Digital Marketing Architect, Alex puts the adaptive in P3 Adaptive. With a long history of just-in-time training and dedication to skills acquisition, he has made it his business to learn whatever skill is necessary to get the job done without waiting around for someone else. He is self-taught and capable of finding outside-the-box solutions and is often finishing the project while others are still spooling up. His motto: Interaction leads to opportunities.
While we hope you enjoy this episode, we also hope that these personal stories let you see the people behind the reputation. At P3 Adaptive, we are and always will be people first. If you are looking to make a change and have crazy skills in the Power Platform, take a look at our careers page. Perhaps the next great story we share will be yours!
As always, if you enjoyed this episode, feel free to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform.
Also in this episode:
Jelly Belly case study
Good Will Hunting: Education vs. Intelligence
P3 Adaptive name change
CoverHawk.app
Coverhawk: Hawking Data and Stymying Offenses, w/ Coach Chase Hargis
P3 Adaptive Foundations: Power BI course
P3 Adaptive Level Up Series: Power Query for Power BI course
September by Earth Wind and Fire
Shark Tank – training fight
The Crazy 88s
The Longest Yard
Have you ever wondered what an actuary is? If so, you are not alone. Over the past several years, the actuary programs at universities nationwide have seen exponential growth, thanks in part to an outreach program called Be An Actuary supported by P3 Adaptive’s Principal Consultant and today’s special guest, Philip Trick. Philip is a rarity in the data world. He found his data gene all the way back in high school and has continued to add additional skills as software has evolved to reduce or remove monotonous tasks such as data cleansing and repetitive calculations. While he came to Power BI and Power Query late in the game, he has become an ardent supporter of the Power Platform’s ability to handle complex data and calculations. He is also one of the few people to publicly admit to possessing an inherent love of the DAX iterators.
Today’s conversation gets technical and covers multiple advanced iterators as well as some interesting statistical problems that get even more complex when you change the variables. While we don’t often talk shop on the show, that isn’t the case today. In an interesting twist, we also learn why some keyboards are missing the F1 key. Here’s a hint, when speed is of the essence, nobody wants Office to open the help pane.
All this and more on today’s episode! Be sure to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe today to have new episodes sent straight to your inbox.
Also on this episode:
Blade Runner
Star Wars- Episode IV
Do androids dream of electric sheep
Laurence Kotlikoff
Minecraft
Modeloff Financial Modeling Competitiion
A mechanical clutch isn't a steampunk purse w/ Bill Sundwall
Mary Poppins -Song compilation
Shared birthday probability
P3 Adaptive Blog: Product X
Casualty Actuarial Society
Wolf of Wall Street
Along Came Polly
Fight Club Insurance Claim Scene
Epistemic Path Dependency, w/ Adam Harstad
Tom Brady un-retirement
Rookie Pay Lacks Negotiation
Edgeworth Box Diagram
Prisoner’s Dilemma
Nash Equilibrium
The Great Football Project Rides Again (In Power BI)
Power BI Brain Candy: Value Above Replacement
Hello Friends! On today’s episode, P3 Adaptive’s Director of Client Services, Bill Sundwall stops by the metaphorical watercooler to talk shop, software, and pets. We get an inside peek at the P3 Adaptive hiring process as well as some interesting insight on the potential super-secret code word for imaginary bonus points in the interview/testing process. Most importantly, this episode goes where no other episode has gone before by bringing in detail on the elusive skills of communication between the different types of stakeholders in your company: the knowledge workers and the people in tech. Bill hypothesizes that you don’t have to know a lot about a person to think through how they process application software, you just need to cognitively empathize with what they are going through in the process.
Podcast First/ Bonus Audio: Mid-episode the recording grinds to a halt due to a dog attack! No trigger warning is necessary, there will be no film footage at 6 and we don’t even get the gory, gut-wrenching details. We do, however, get the story of a man, his family, and some pets in need of advocacy and a good home. Through this story, we learn that our host, Rob, can hang with the big dogs, get bitten, and not get his feelings hurt. He is fine, the dog is fine, and the family will continue to foster/rescue more animals in need. P3 Adaptive truly is a wild place to work!
As always, if you enjoy the episode, be sure to leave us a review. If you were moved by the story of Bailey’s lake escapade and are interested in fostering or adopting a pet in need, reach out to your local animal shelter or rescue group!
Also on this Episode:
Jack Stack Interview with Inc
Shishir Mehrotra on P3 Adaptive
LetterKenny Power BI Skills Video
Adam Harstad on P3 Adaptive
Life is like a box of chocolates
Johnny Winter on P3 Adaptive
Distinct Count
P3 Adaptive Foundations 2-day course
Related Function
Plumbing versus faucets by P3 Adaptive
Gen Con
A picture when you were younger
P3 Adaptive: We’re hiring!
Godzilla: Impossible Anatomy
Fight Club
The Death of Stalin
Star Wars: We will watch your career with great interest
Cincinnatus: Warrior to Farmer
Kaiser Soze
Star Wars: The Circle is Now Complete
Hello friends! Today we welcome a dynamic duo to the show, Denise Trabona and Adam Harmetz of Microsoft’s SharePoint team, and they take us through the extraordinary 10 + year evolution of SharePoint from the frustratingly chaotic farms of the past to the streamlined, user-friendly UX of the future. Both Denise and Adam were part of the historical transformation from a lumbering, haphazard platform to a sexy platform showpiece. This evolution has earned SharePoint the record for the fastest Microsoft product to reach a billion in revenue. In its current incarnation, end-user design has reached its pinnacle.
But that isn’t all, not only has SharePoint evolved, but its reach has also expanded. Statistically, nearly 1 in 10 developers in the world have coded on top of SharePoint, which is a phenomenal statistic. Even more incredible is the fact that if you search LinkedIn, approximately 1.6 million people list SharePoint as a skill on their resume or profile. This makes it self-evident that SharePoint has moved from a state of potential complexity implosion to near utopia.
Also in this episode, Rob asks the questions that so many of us have wanted to ask and we hear it from the experts, the difference between SharePoint and OneDrive has to do with the expected use case. OneDrive is more person and SharePoint is, well, shared. Finally, this episode becomes an ad-hoc SharePoint therapy session for our own host, Rob Collie as he airs his pent-up frustrations and embraces the newer, better, faster SharePoint. You almost have to ask yourself if this SharePoint will finally tempt Rob away from Dropbox??
Also on this episode:
Winchester mansion in California
Shrek Blue Flower Red Thorns
Office's Relevance to the Power Platform Crowd, w/Tristan Davis
Rob Collie keynote SharePoint Saturday – Ann Arbor
2009 Sharepoint Fairy
Sharepoint Samurai with Rob Collie
Clippy Microsoft
Hello friends! On today’s episode, we bring back the greatest of the great, the all-time champ of Raw Data Downloads, the DAX Demon himself, The Scree! I am sure you will recall His Un-Deadness, evil genius of the Undead Lords Guild from his record-setting, chart-topping, last appearance on our show where he shared the secrets of the inner workings of gaming guilds and data.
During this visit, Scree shares anecdotes of his data prowess harkening back to the early days of recreational internet and gaming guilds. He reminisces about his early days in the Breed group on Deviant Art where he honed his storytelling and visualization skills to better appreciate and integrate a visually appealing UX. Don’t worry, though, this episode doesn’t dwell in the past, the conversation also covers the genius behind data automation with Power BI and Power Query where Scree admirably points out that such automation is like adding an additional member to the team, basically equivocating the Power Platform as the business version of the industrial revolution. . . and he isn’t wrong.
Finally, Rob broaches the topic we have all been waiting for, the EVE online export to excel announcement that drove the gaming crowd nuts at the conference. With his insider knowledge of gaming guilds, online gaming, and “space corporations and alliances,” Scree handily explains the intricacies of data and spreadsheets for monetizing subscription hours on the platform. He hints that export to excel will level the playing field for the EVE online entities that didn’t have access to people with tech skills. Will this lead to alliance expansions or new factions on the playing field? Only time will tell.
All this and more on today’s episode of Raw Data by P3, where data meets the human element!
Also on this episode:
Raiders of the Lost Ark – Top Man
P3 Adaptive Advanced DAX Training
Deviant Art
Even Undead Lords Love Data w/Scree: Raw Data By P3 Adaptive
EVE Online announces Export to Excel
CCP Fanfest – EVE Online
World of Warcraft
Excel Past/Present/Future, w/ Excel Head of Product Brian Jones
Apple commercial compilation
Disconnected Slicer blogs on P3 Adapative
Field Parameters
Power BI Ideas Forum
Crypto-Fantasy Leftists are an Exclusive Tribe, w/Davis Mattek
Boaty McBoatface
Deneb
Vega/Vega Light
Hawking Data and stymying Offenses, w/ Coach Chase Hargis: Cover Hawk
Hello friends!
On today’s episode, our host, Rob sits down with one of his podcast idols, Davis Mattek of TaekCast. As you know, Rob is a big fan of Fantasy Football (and a former P3 League Champion with the videos to prove it) so it is no big surprise to learn he follows several fantasy football and sports podcasts in his free time. In fact, if you are familiar with TaekCast, you may have noticed some similarities between our show and Davis’. Imitation is, of course, the best form of flattery . . .
As for Davis, he is another guest with an accidental data story. His data origin story doesn’t include childhood dreams of data goodness, nor did he embrace the educational background of statistics. While numbers and analytics underpin his methods of sports forecasting, shockingly, this sports analyst just inherently understands how statistics work while including variables and outliers and all the wonderful ‘what ifs’ that occur during any given sports season. And that, my friends, makes him an accidental person of tech.
He is here today to shed some light on his roster choices but also on the mysterious Crypto and Blockchain currencies. And you never know, maybe a little glimmer of light will highlight some conspiracy theories and backstories as well. In this episode, Rob and Tom delve deeper into digital currencies than before and who knows, maybe, just maybe, a fortune can be made.
At the end of the day, though, Davis is just a really cool person with an enlightening story that we are sure you will enjoy. Be sure to download this episode to hear his story and after you listen, leave us a review on your favorite platform.
Telephone, Telegraph, or Tele-friend about the Raw Data Podcast by P3 Adaptive . . . where data gets raw.
Also on this Episode:
Sports Grid Fantasy Podcast
Crypto Crash/Bear Market
Mt. GOX Hacked
Coinbase
Exit Scam podcast
Quadriga Gerry Cotton Documentary
Inside Man
Stuff you should know Bitcoin podcast
The Coin Talk Show
Book: The Bitcoin Standard
The Marcos are Ruling the Philippines Again
Zero Hedge
Bilbo Baggins: There and Back Again
Matt Damon Fortune Favors the Brave
Don’t Miss Out on Crypto: Larry David FTX Commercial
Coinbase Super Bowl Commercial – win $3 million
Pink Floyd Maggie what have we done to England
Radical Markets Glen Weyl and Eric Posner
Taekcast Episode: The Bear Market Blues with Brian Hooper
Hello friends! On this episode, we sit down with Poppy MacDonald, President of USA Facts, to learn about the process of breaking down governmental silos for data without bias. You may have seen some of their data during the extended pandemic, but you may not have known how much work went into providing just the facts without the opinion . . . or how small the team was behind the scenes. You will find no clickbait here, for Poppy, it's all about the facts.
While Poppy doesn’t mention a specific moment when her data gene emerged, she has admittedly always been data-driven. As a partner at Gallup Inc, she was responsible for launching World Poll where every voice counts, and assumptions don’t matter. That experience led her to her current position as an advocate for transparency of and ease of access to public data.
Poppy’s philosophy is that our democracy can be stronger if it's data-driven. With that mantra in mind, she seeks to empower citizen stakeholders and representatives alike within our government. With Poppy at the helm, USA Facts created the State of the Union in Numbers to provide a non-partisan summary of the most pressing issues facing the nation.
Under Poppy’s tutelage, USA Facts has grown exponentially and has taken the top spot for reliable data and statistics. While some sources remain elusive, the facts you find on the site will be verified and accurate to give you the tools you need to make data-driven decisions when it matters most. After all, you must have trustworthy data for a healthy democracy.
Also on this episode:
Poppy MacDonald: We need to bring facts back into the discussion.
Men in Black
World Poll
State of the Union in Numbers
1 trillion visualized
Ratatouille: Anyone can cook
Leaders Need Not be Flashy w Dave Gainer
Michael Phelps Record Putt
Hello Friends! On today’s episode, Johnny Winter of Greyskull Analytics shares his exciting story of transformation from mild-mannered bartender to human ETL machine and beyond. As is often the story, the data drudgery of manual processes triggered his data gene which in turn brought about his hidden power of BI, and Greyskull Analytics was born. Johnny speaks candidly about moving up through the ranks from fresh Excel apprentice (to in-house, grumpy Excel guru) and the side quests that inspired him to chart his own path to data mastery. His abhorrence of blindly following instructions led him to always seek a better, more logical path of data stewardship.
This episode delivers a lively commentary on pop culture references as well as opportunities to hear about the inner workings of transitioning from SSAS, T-SGL, and PL-SQL as well as at least one SAP reference. You better get your notepad out to keep up with all the letters flying around. Don’t worry, though, it is a very grounded look at all the different methods of storing, accessing, and analyzing data . . . but without the repetitive work. Buckle up and prepare for the time of your life as Rob and Tom bring us another episode with the Power of BI!
Also on this Episode:
He-Man
He-Man Reboot Netflix
Xena Warrior Princess
PowerPivot Yoda
Greyskull Analytics
Work out every other day
Milgram Experiment
Michael Douglas in Falling Down
Wheel of Inquisition – P3
Mad Max wheel in Thunder Dome
High Quality GIFs subreddit
Time Intelligence
Bill Inmon Lakehouse
On today’s episode, we sit down with Tristan Davis, Product Manager at Microsoft for the Office Platform. That’s right, the person in charge of the team in charge of extensibility and advancement of the Office Suite of programs shares some insight and exciting news about the current path and the future of the most commonly used platform. You will hear about security, advancements, and maybe even a secret reveal or two from the upcoming BUILD announcements. Exciting news is coming for increasing both productivity and security in the new virtual workplace of Office 365. (Here is a hint: Have you seen the new Automate Tab in the Excel web app?) Most importantly, we learn about the future of VBA as Microsoft looks to revamp the process for added security, leaving the good but reducing the opportunity for evil, viral usage. Additionally, during the course of the conversation, Rob and Tristan revisit the Bedlam email as well as the current method of preventing future occurrences. This episode is full of trivia and innovation. You won’t want to miss it!
Also on this episode:
James Olenik Dataverse episode
Wazzu Virus
Brian Jones Episode
The Bedlam Email Storm: Microsoft Reply All Storm Fix
BUILD
Mark of the Web: Macros disabled
Today we welcome the newest member of the P3 Adaptive family, Liz Rogers as she shares her relentless pursuit to find a better way. Liz’s story highlights the rarest hybrid data type yet, those with a self-sufficient mindset who are translators between the process/tech and the customer/user experience. This data type truly focuses on improvement across all segments. Her passion for figuring it out brought about both immediate, visible impact and scalability to every position in her career.
Throughout today’s talk, Liz highlights the most persistent of data traits, she has always insisted on having the opportunity (and the ability) to try, fail, and then figure it out. Often, in a business setting, too many people focus only on success and frown upon the failures that are hyper-critical to the learning process. Without the opportunity to fail, however, you end up with people who want to be baby bird-fed data who lose the desire to utilize the most incredible, self-service tools of the Power Platform. These are the opportunities where the puzzle solvers thrive when people like Liz grow and evolve into true Power Platform superheroes.
You won’t want to miss this episode!
Also in this episode:
Donald Farmer Episode
Hans Rosling Ted Talk Bubble Chart
How I built this Podcast
Scree Podcast
The Cult of the right Thing
Today we welcome Blythe Morrow, owner of Paper Sword, to the show. She shares her SQL-adjacent/data-adjacent data origin story and the details of her love affair with both language and data. We also get inside insight into Paper Sword’s technical writer onboarding and development with a special shout-out to Tom LaRock’s Solar Winds podcast episode on the Disappearing DBAs. The ability to marry good writing with technical skills can help you clarify your message and build trust with your stakeholders. Even if you aren’t a writer, learning how to talk to and convince people about Data Platform technologies can elevate your skills as a data professional.
In addition, Blythe shares the secrets of binging shadow IT into the light through the shared strength of various software, adaptability, and scalability. Her history working with PASS means that she has the knowledge and the network to effect change within the data community. She joins us here to get you pumped about data.
Join us today as we learn to write a data adventure!
Also on this episode:
P.A.S.S. Data Community Summit
Women in Technology
STARTOFMONTH– DAX
OPENINGBALANCEMONTH -DAX
Marco Russo and Alberto Ferrari
Cujo
Monty Python Rabbit
Power BI Sentinel
AWS Reinvent Conference
Mad Men Carousel
Mike Reynolds on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive
Solar Winds Podcast: The Disappearing DBA
In this episode, we break down the newest phrase to come out of the Power Platform this year with James Oleinik, Director of Project Management with Microsoft. His team owns the experience for PowerApps, and he joins us to define Dataverse and explain how it is integrated to create a seamless data transfer across all Microsoft products. Using simple language, he provides insight on the low code platform that provides the scaffolding to connect, import, and integrate a wide variety of a company’s data. According to James, all data is Dataverse data, and anyone can be a low code developer!
James clarifies that Dataverse is not SQL and could never be just storage. Instead, it is the framework, management and logic you need to create structured access to your data estate and the ability to build much-needed apps on top of it.
Don’t worry if you aren’t up on the lingo, Host Rob Collie breaks it down to Power BI comparisons before we learn about exciting developments in Virtual tables and Power Effects. You heard it first on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, the Excel language and the VBA surface of yesterday is the Dataverse Table Power Effects and Power Apps of tomorrow.
Join us today as we go into the Dataverse and beyond!
Also in this episode:
We’re Hiring!
InfoPath
Dynamics 365
Donald Farmer Episode
FrankenSpark
Zara and Zenubia Kahn Episode
Mapping the Road to Innovation, w/ Mike Reynolds
On Today’s episode special guest Mike Reynolds defines digital product and the genius behind InnovateMap. Mike explains that businesses must go digital if they touch a consumer or risk losing relevance. While most consumer-facing companies have embraced this tenant, many B2B companies just haven’t accepted this yet and those who have are advancing quicker than ever.
Rob and Mike also discuss Covid bonding and the pattern analytics that helped companies ride the storm. Revisiting the past couple of difficult years, the takeaway is clear, Covid19 was a wake-up call for businesses to expand their digital product and their office flexibility.
Finally, Mike, Rob, and Tom discuss the great remote work migration and why it works for some and not for others, and the future of remote work.
As an added bonus, during the conversation, Rob shares the history of Mullet Man and his connection to Mike and InnovateMap. You too can learn how the great icon of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive was created.
Also on this episode:
Mad Men: The Wheel
Wordle
Seinfeld water cooler
Buck Rogers robot, Twiki
Far Side Thumb wrestler
March Data-Ness - The Method Behind the Madness
Jack In the Box Commercial
On today’s episode, self-described accountant by trade and a problem solver by passion, Fran Reed of Freedup Data Optics shares how she uses her data bending skills to remove the frustration of working with an on-premises accounting software build. Fran is one of the rare go-betweens of the Power Platform and Intuit’s Quickbooks. She makes easy work of bridging the gap between numbers and decision-makers to design the best solution for both her large and small business clientele. With the ability of Power Query to cleanse and transform data to the perfect format for the transition to QuickBooks, the low/free entry cost and Fran’s recommendation may just tip the scale to bringing more small businesses to the fold.
Fran also shares her data origin story. While she has always been a numbers person, Fran developed an early appreciation of software and took the first opportunity to transition away from the antiquated accounting technology of the past like Micro Fiche machines and Exacto knife/scotch tape corrections to computational files and automated calculations.
Beware, however, that today’s episode may also result in a few laughs as host, Rob Collie drops the mother of all Dad Jokes. You do not want to miss this episode.
Also on this episode:
Sit Ubu Sit
Stay Thirsty My Friend
Mary Fealty Podcast
Allison Kennedy Podcast
Tim Rodman Podcast
Mr Excel Podcast
Chandoo Podcast
On today’s episode of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, we welcome Allison Kennedy to the show. Allision is a Certified Microsoft trainer and MVP specializing in Excel but, according to her, that just means that she is a puzzle solver, number cruncher, and an Excel aficionado. Allision is one of the rare data gene types who loves teaching others to embrace their data for the good of humanity or for one-upping Australia. A true educator at heart, Allision’s data origin story involves transitioning from Mechanical Engineering into education, first with languages in Spain and then with all things data on the other side of the world in New Zealand proving that with the right data skills, you really can go places.
In addition, we hear about her other passion: meditative free diving. Recently certified as a Four Start Advanced Master freediver, Allison can reach depths of 32 meters on a single lung full of air (don’t try this at home). On the topic of freediving, Rob shares a Pop Collie anecdote, and we have a good laugh at the wiliness of the Collie family in pranking the younger generation. How? No spoilers here. You’ll have to listen to find out this and more on today’s episode.
Also on this episode:
Pavlova
Just-in-Time Training
Chalk Dust Torture - Phish
George Carlin Joke – Original Version
VLOOKUP
Power BI Summit
Attribution Bias
Four Star Freediver
Freediving World Record
Pop Collie Blog Post
Power BI Community Forum
Chalk Dust Torture – The Lyrics
Lars Schreiber – P3 Adaptive Podcast
On this episode of Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, we set a new record for the number of times the word “Wow” is used in a single episode. What could possibly impress our veteran hosts to the point of leaving them speechless except for single-word answers?
We’re glad you asked. Today, we host Zara and Zenubia Kahn, 11-year-old twins on a mission to inspire young girls in STEM and turn the Power Platform world on its head. Hailing from Pakistan and currently residing in Singapore, these sisters have a track record of setting and breaking goals at a young age by earning certifications in both Microsoft Power Platform and in Azure AI by the age of 10.
Since becoming Power Platform Superstars, these amazing young ladies have participated in many global events espousing the importance of STEM education and motivating both children and adults alike to learn new skills. As a result of their hard work and dedication, Zara and Zenubia have been awarded the National Youth Award for 2021.
Zara and Zenubia Kahn are grade 6 students who enjoy swimming, cycling, and the exciting wizardry world of Harry Potter. Oh, and also, they are the youngest certified in Microsoft Platform and Azure AI professionals. At age 11 they are already dividing projects, assigning responsibility, building apps, and inspiring young women everywhere.
Sit back and listen as our hosts learn the inspiring story behind their success.
Also on this episode:
Microsoft Learn
World Food Organization
Face API from Azure
Kahn Academy
Freakanomics
Zara and Zenubia on LinkedIn
STEM
Lori Rodriguez Raw Data By P3 Adaptive Podcast
GitHub
It seems fitting for the week of Saint Patrick’s Day to include some Shamrocks. This week, we welcome to the show, Jeff Lingen from Shamrock Foods Company. Boasting 15+ years of data management and BI development, Jeff is the Director of Business Intelligence and Analytics and a coder of DAX from way back. Today Jeff gives us the inside scoop on his data origin story of escaping the data drudgery behind finance and moving into the analytics field and beyond.
Like all carriers of the data gene, there was a moment of realization for Jeff that non-mainstream ideas could enable and empower business users to be more self-sufficient. Naturally, this new age thinking created some friction with the OS I.T. but Jeff persisted until he proved to himself and others that Power Pivot and its successor, Power BI, could enable sophisticated modeling and analytics. Even though this road was more difficult, Jeff was determined to give his users the tools to find joy in data. Through extensive use of the P3 Adaptive Blog, Jeff moved away from flat reporting to Power BI to push his self-service message and further his career. As an exciting plot twist, Jeff even talks through his experience of briefly defecting from Power BI to Tableau before returning to the Microsoft fold. You won’t want to miss this episode.
Also on this episode:
The Great Football Project
Bilbo Baggins Back again
Edward Tufte
Calvin and Hobbs time machine
Eisenhower Matrix
Communication Breakdown
Baker’s Dozen
Kimball data warehouse style
Reddit Bananas
Entropy and the Arrow of time
Roller hockey
Kohlrabi juice
Today on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, we check in with past guest Matt Selig of @Barkeeperfriend to see how post-project implementation is going. In this visit, Matt brings coworker Christina Roark, Controller and VP of Digital Marketing, to discuss using Power BI to create visual stories to create a social media marketing department and fine-tuning inventory reporting -- in the middle of a pandemic -- to bolster continued growth. While no plan survives its initial implementation both Matt and Chrissy assure us that the Power Platform is more than a match for anything that 2022 can throw at it. Listen in as they discuss the common threads in business growth during a global pandemic: good product and exceptionally agile BI.
While other companies were struggling to bubble up insight, the team at Bar Keepers Friend was using rapid prototyping to discover areas of opportunity and to triage existing data processes and management. As Chrissy put it, you must take care of your data before it gets to the software if you want the reporting to be accurate. Dashboards will bring issues to light, internal issues with processes that you must fix for people to rely on reports and dashboards.
Want to know more? Read the BKF / P3 Adaptive Case Study Here.
#BarKeepersFriend
Also in this episode:
Bar Keepers Friend commercial
Bar Keepers Friend
Matt Selig's First Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast
Tim Rodman Podcast episode: The Numbers that Didn't Exist, with Tim Rodman
John Hancock Podcast episode: Crimefighting with a Data Model, w/ John Hancock
Automated Taco Machine
Pilot Flying J scandal
Monty Python's Life of Brian
Kurt Vonnegut's Jailbird
Dino Cursor
The red stapler
Hello friends! Today’s episode is like no other! We learn the inside secrets to creating an internal Power BI community within an organization from none other than Khaled Chowdhury, Global Director, Data & Analytics with CMC Materials. Khaled is one of the doers who took what he learned from training, rode the excitement after class, and achieved buy-in at his company by tackling a huge project using a free resource over a weekend. When the powers that be were shown his quick, agile, and cost-effective results compared to the expensive, labor-intensive method formerly used by the company, they were sold. Khaled is a Power BI champion of the highest level after overcoming the “it's too cheap to be a good tool” perception that is cost-assigned value.
Pulling from his extensive background in building and transforming world-class teams, leveraging technology, and driving adoption, Khaled opines that most projects fail because new technology is seen as an invasion versus a revolution. Invasions happen from outside the organization, revolutions start from within. Perception, he says, is always key to implementation. If you are implementing a Power Platform project of your own, you can’t afford to miss this episode.
All of this and more on today’s episode!
In this episode:
Superman Turns Back Time
Dave Gainer on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive
The Curse of Knowledge
The Great Wine Label Swap Study
VLOOKUP replacement on P3 Adaptive Blog
Analyze in Excel
Mike Miskell
I'm Winston Wolf
Big Fish moment from “That Really Movie”
Keanu Reeves John Wick Training video
Borg Assimilation
Hello friends! Today we welcome one of the big guns of analytics to our show, Diego Oppenheimer. He is an entrepreneur, product developer, co-founder of Algorithmia, Microsoft alumni, rugby aficionado, and current Executive Vice President at DataRobot.
Nothing is off the table in this romp through topics that run the gambit from machine learning to quantum computing. Even string theory gets a mention. Make sure you have had your coffee for this one, though, as the conversation takes a technical turn not often seen on this show. Rob and Tom engage with Diego in a lively debate on complexity versus flexibility of tools. Shockingly, this guest manages to tweak a host’s nose (through no fault of his own as times and DBA roles have changed and evolved).
Today’s conversations with Diego have inspired a new classification of the data gene: data enthusiasm. This rare variation is not often seen in the public sector but allows people like Diego to brazenly assert to business owners and stakeholders that he can show you things about your business you don’t even know . . . and be completely accurate.
Buckle up and crank this one up. You won’t want to miss a single minute as the data gets raw.
References in this episode:
Wolf of Wall Street
Goodfellas
World Simulation
Today, on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, our special guest is Priscilla Camp, tech blogger, Power BI enthusiast, user group leader, and data diva. Joining us from sunny Orlando Florida, Priscilla shares her Accidental DBA story. Like so many others, she began her evolutionary process in IT where she learned there are better, frictionless methods to fine tune data. Now, her skills are shared via her I.T. Data Diva blog to help others navigate the process. Also on this episode, we get her take on mixed use of SQL and M to cleanse and transform data. Her advice to SQL users: Always use Power Query for dates. You can find Priscilla on Twitter @ITDataDiva.
References in this episode:
Orlando Power BI User Group
Alligators in ice
Data and AI Central Florida
SQL Saturday
One of the World’s Most Amazing Humans, w/ Matt Allington
Accidental DBA
Power Query Date Handling Expertise: Read our blog on consecutive dates in Power Query.
Se7en
Cover Hawk
DA-100: Analyzing Data with Microsoft Power BI – Tips to help you succeed
P3 Adaptive Hiring process -yes, we're hiring
Surfing the Changing Seas of Data w/ Chris Webb
Hello friends! Today on RawData, P3 Adaptive’s very own Chris Haas relays not only his Data origin story but also shares with us how he came to join the P3 team. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water, along comes Escher’s waterfall to send you around again.
In his role as ad hoc data therapist, Chris has the unique opportunity to see our clients grow and learn to ask the right questions. His insight: The journey of discovery along the way transforms both the business and the user as they learn that true value may not necessarily be found by having a single answer.
Also in this episode, Rob and Chris redefine the phrase “fast fail” transforming it into rapid discovery and development. Chris explains that clients should never be afraid of rapid-fire development as speed is more important in open development to learn what works, is relevant, and should be explored further.
References in this episode:
Star Wars Episode 1 Intro
Beautiful Mind
The Hangover Beautiful Mind Parody
500 Hats
M.C. Escher's waterfall
Rocky Training montage
Charlie Chaplin 80's IBM Commercials
Grief Bacon
High Wire Brewing
Raw Data with Austin Senseman
Strange Brew Beer Truck
Today on Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, our guest is the mysterious Scree from the Undead Lords Guild. Choosing to remain anonymous, Scree brings his data and Power BI experience from his ‘day job’ in an informationally protected industry to his hobby and passion: gaming. Being part of the admin team gives Scree the opportunity to showcase his mad data skills and proves that you never know where a data person is lurking.
Also, in this episode, we learn how a gaming guild uses data to track membership to determine engagement. The data paints a picture of what games are being played and for how long giving the admin team an idea of which games to target for participation. Yes, even gaming guilds work towards goals and use data. After all, guilds are also content providers.
All of this yet they still fit in Power BI and more. You won’t want to miss this episode!
References in this Episode:
Neverwinter Nights
World of Warcraft
Mystery Shoppers
King of Kong Documentary
Office Space Flair Scene
Raw Data with Coach Chase Hargis
CoverHawk
NoCheckDowns
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today we welcome as our guest, the mysterious Scree. By day, he is a Power BI consultant, working for a consulting firm. But by night, he's one of the Undead Lords. No, he's not into black magic. It's a gaming guild. But as part of that gaming guild, he does use Power BI to measure member engagement. And folks, the stakes are high because the Undead Lords are gunning for the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest running gaming guild. It's not just fun and games people. And that application of Power BI, or really any technology to one's personal pursuits became kind of a theme of our conversation. The question we had was basically, if you use the technology at work, but you don't use it in your personal life for anything, are you really that into it? And if your answer is yes, that you do use it as a hobby, then he and I share the opinion that that is far more important than any sort of formal training. Passion beats degrees.
Rob Collie (00:00:56):
Like the majority of people who've been on our show, Scree took a very, very random path through the world of data to today, starting in an unlikely place. The sales floor of a Best Buy in 2009, where he was on the receiving end of analytics. With no power at all to impact the creation. And that's a little unusual. I think most people in our space, their first interaction with it is almost like organically. They're involved in the creation from the get go. I mean, that's what the VLOOKUP in Pivot Crowd is about, right? But even as a pure consumer of reporting and analytics, Scree recognized the value of it immediately. And in his next job, working in sales at a bank, they gave him access to Salesforce, and he never looked back.
Rob Collie (00:01:40):
We also talk a little bit about the challenges of hiring these days. And we absolutely would've talked about Microsoft's acquisition of Activision Blizzard. But sadly, we recorded this episode before that news broke. Might have to have him back on just to talk about that. Anyway, it's not often that you have an Undead Lord on your podcast. So, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:59):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:02:06):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:27):
Welcome to the show the mysterious Scree. How are you today?
Scree (00:02:32):
I'm good.
Rob Collie (00:02:33):
That's how I know you from Twitter is Scree. And of course, then I follow the link on the Scree profile and what do I find? I find a gaming guild, right? I say that as if I don't know what that is. I do definitely know what that is.
Scree (00:02:50):
Yeah. The Undead Lords. One of the oldest running guilds ever. We're actually going after the Guinness Book of World Records for that.
Rob Collie (00:02:57):
No way.
Scree (00:02:58):
Yeah. They were formed in 1994.
Rob Collie (00:03:01):
What?
Scree (00:03:01):
And the current record holder was formed in '96, so we're coming for them.
Rob Collie (00:03:07):
Okay. So, '94. What game would've necessitated a guild in 1994?
Scree (00:03:13):
Yeah, it was an AOL game called Neverwinter Nights.
Rob Collie (00:03:16):
Okay.
Scree (00:03:17):
I don't know if you guys remember the old Gold Box Dungeons & Dragons PC games?
Rob Collie (00:03:21):
Maybe. You're talking Luke and I are very much old school. An episode that went live at the end of the year, includes a vignette or two about our Dungeons & Dragons, actual role playing tabletop days.
Scree (00:03:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:37):
But, yeah. I'm aware of the existence of D&D theme computer games.
Scree (00:03:42):
They were really big back in the '90s. A studio converted one of them.
Rob Collie (00:03:47):
Oh, look at that. Do you see what Luke's showing?
Scree (00:03:49):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:50):
The OG monster manual.
Scree (00:03:52):
Wow. So, yeah. This guild basically started playing one of the first online graphical MMOs. And back then, guilds were just essential to being able to do anything in any game.
Rob Collie (00:04:04):
I didn't even know that there were MMOs until, Ultimate Online is the first one that I was aware of. And I didn't play it. I just knew of it.
Scree (00:04:12):
Yeah, they went there after NWN.
Rob Collie (00:04:15):
I guess, the idea of a gaming guild, I wasn't really aware of it until one of my friends was playing the Tribes, first person shooter.
Scree (00:04:24):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:04:25):
He's actually been on the show, Connor Cunningham. I remember them taking a group picture in the game. I was like, "Oh, that's kind of cool."
Scree (00:04:32):
I joined them more recently, earlier this year. So, I haven't played with them since '94. They've just been around since then.
Rob Collie (00:04:40):
But the reason we've crossed paths on Twitter is nothing to do with gaming, because even when I do play computer games, I am very much one of the casuals. I'm one of the ones that just fills out the ranks of a guild as ballast.
Scree (00:04:54):
Sure. I know the type.
Rob Collie (00:04:56):
But we crossed paths on Twitter because of Power BI. Behind the scenes, does Undead Lords use Power BI to run the guild?
Scree (00:05:02):
I wouldn't say to run it. It's really kind of in its rudimentary state right now. But I've worked on it as part of a side hobby. So, some of the reporting that I do for my work, we do a lot of healthcare clients lately. I work for a company that was just acquired and they do client contracting for any number of services, mostly tech related services. Engineering, the hard science type stuff. But they've expanded into their data exploration toolset, so to speak. So, we've got people who know data engineering, data science, AIML. And then people like me who do more of the front end reporting work. And a lot of the stuff that I work on, I just can't show. So, if we want to show anything, I have to work on things on the side to be able to showcase my talent.
Rob Collie (00:05:47):
Yeah.
Scree (00:05:48):
So, for a long time, I was working on stuff for UDL. That's the shorthand we use for the guild. And UDL, we also use a chat application called Discord. I don't know if you're familiar with it.
Rob Collie (00:05:58):
Oh, yeah. Very much.
Scree (00:05:59):
Just like Slack or any of the chat tools that are out there. But Discord has a couple unique features that make it super nice for a gaming guild. So, one of the things that we've been able to track is when you play a game, Discord shows your status as now playing X game.
Rob Collie (00:06:13):
Right.
Scree (00:06:14):
So, for probably the last 18 months, I've been scraping that data as it comes across so I can track, one, what games we're playing. How long we're playing them. Who's playing them. And basically be able to paint a picture of activity and organization. Just what games are out there that people are actively engaged with. So, yeah. We have been using it just to kind of get an idea if we're not sure if someone's actively participating or contributing, we can go hop in and go look at their status and take a look at what they've been doing. So, it's kind of a little big brother-y.
Rob Collie (00:06:45):
And who doesn't need some big brother in their gaming guild?
Scree (00:06:48):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:49):
You have to, right? It's an organization working towards a goal. That's always been one of my tensions with it is, see I'm playing a game to relax.
Scree (00:06:57):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:58):
And a lot of people play games. I'm not critical of this. It just isn't me. There's a certain excellence that's trying to be brought to the picture, right? It's very serious.
Scree (00:07:07):
And that's the thing. We're a hardcore competitive PVP guild. And maybe the hardcore piece is in question right now just because of how long the guild's been around. And a lot of the original founding members are now 40, 50, 60 with kids and commitments. So, it's kind of hard to say we're going to log in like teenagers and no life it for the weekend. But there's still a level of information that I've been working to bring towards the guild, just so they have the insight. Whether they use it or not is irrelevant. And it's really easy to hide. If you don't want someone to know what you're playing, you just turn off the statuses and my bot can't track what you're doing. By and large, most of our members understand that if they are going to go play some ridiculously embarrassing game, they can turn it off and I can't watch it.
Rob Collie (00:07:54):
Discord, by the way, is the best way for me to get ahold of my college aged son.
Scree (00:07:58):
Yeah?
Rob Collie (00:07:59):
It trumps cell phone by a mile. He's not going to answer a phone call. Maybe he'll answer a text. But hit him up in Discord and you've got a 50/50 chance. You know?
Scree (00:08:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:08:11):
I get to know what he's doing. Oh, look, he's playing Halo again. It's like checking in.
Scree (00:08:15):
Yeah, in 2022, we're looking to go even further than what we've been doing. And I want to keep track of how many messages people are typing. How long people stay in voice chat so we can see, are they talking while they're playing, or listening at least? And just to get a better sense of the engagement with the guild. And we combine all three of those metrics together is the plan to get a total guild engagement score that we can measure for each member. And if members fall off and aren't as enthusiastic about playing with us, we can reach out and find out why. So, guilds these days are really a content provider for most games. The games themselves have some content. But guilds can provide more to it. And so, just by engaging those members, I think we can keep the reign of 30 plus years going for this organization.
Rob Collie (00:09:01):
So, the 1996 record holder, have they dissolved?
Scree (00:09:04):
No, they're still active.
Rob Collie (00:09:05):
Okay, all right. So, you're on their heels, two years behind.
Scree (00:09:09):
Two years ahead. However you want to frame it. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:09:12):
It's like this really long running game of chicken. No, no, no. You give up.
Scree (00:09:17):
Right. Yeah, and the record is kind of suspect because it's consecutive running guild. You had to have played consecutively for that entire time. But the actual Guinness record says you can have a six month gap in between two games. No more than six months.
Rob Collie (00:09:34):
Okay.
Scree (00:09:35):
So, we don't get to see what their record actually looks like.
Rob Collie (00:09:39):
I see.
Scree (00:09:39):
So, we're not sure exactly if they were active the whole time.
Rob Collie (00:09:43):
This is the seedy back alley truth of the Guinness record for guilds. Now we're really getting into the nitty gritty here. You know?
Scree (00:09:50):
Yeah. But we want it. It's just hard. A lot of the records from that time are not great. You need screenshots and dates, and back then, screenshots didn't have dates.
Rob Collie (00:10:00):
Yeah.
Scree (00:10:01):
It's an uphill battle.
Rob Collie (00:10:02):
Have you seen King of Kong?
Scree (00:10:04):
No.
Rob Collie (00:10:04):
You got to watch the documentary, King of Kong. Oh my God. You want to talk about dirty, dirty, dirty shenanigans with regard to world records. And again, in a space that you just wouldn't expect there to be corporate espionage. You know? That is a hell of a movie.
Scree (00:10:23):
I'll add it to the list.
Rob Collie (00:10:24):
Yeah, oh my God. Yeah, King of Kong. When I asked if you used Power BI to run the guild, that was just a joke.
Scree (00:10:33):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:33):
I wasn't expecting there to be anything there. Sounds like there is. You actually are. And I completely identify with this. There's multiple facets of it. First of all, you can't share anything publicly that's actually production data. Like the stuff that you do in your day job is almost by definition, super, super, super sensitive.
Scree (00:10:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:54):
One of the jokes I make all the time is, "We do two things here. We work with data and we sign NDAs." Those are our two core competencies at P3. And if it's not valuable, if it's not sensitive, we probably aren't working with it.
Scree (00:11:07):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:11:08):
Also, you can't always bring that personal enthusiasm and energy to every last project that you're working on. Most business projects with Power BI actually are pretty stimulating and engaging and fun. That's been my experience.
Scree (00:11:22):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:11:22):
But you can't bring the creative passionate flare to its full strength with it until you take it into something that's in your personal life, or your hobby. And this is why, for example, we ended up sinking so much time and effort and money into things like our no check downs site, which is NFL football visualized. And that, in turn, spawned the whole CoverHawk thing with Coach Chase Hargis. It's cool to have public facing examples, in particular, where you can dial up that consumer angle to it. You can make it really, really, really consumer friendly. Does Discord, when you want to go and share one of these reports back to the guild, how do you do that? Are you just taking screenshots?
Scree (00:12:09):
I can share the report with the public. It's an early work for me, so I haven't touched it in probably two years now. So, it's not really a great example of my current work.
Rob Collie (00:12:19):
Sure.
Scree (00:12:20):
So, when I originally got started, I was making a website for this game that we were going to go in and play, and I learned how to do backend dev work with JavaScript. And there's a JavaScript library for Discord. And that kind of facilitated learning how to scrape Discord. Make a bot that works in Discord so you could run commands and do things against that bot, the guild could. So, I don't do programming for my job. I'm not professionally trained. I have a high school comp sci AP test, and then maybe a couple courses in my undergrad. But I never professionally trained on any of it. I do programming on the side, again, for my hobby. If I'm going to work on something on the side, I'm going to challenge myself to learn something new. And so, this was kind of that angle I started on a long time ago, was learning how to program. And then, how do I visualize this?
Scree (00:13:11):
And at the time, I was learning Power BI for my job, and decided, why not use this? So, I made a database that all this data's being trapped and captured into. And then, a front end API that connects with that data and then Power BI scrapes from that. I've written out this whole infrastructure basically for this report that maybe three or four of us use right now, at most. Again, it's just one of those learning things where I'm not just the guy who takes the data and does things with it. I was involved deeply all along the way of gathering the data and storing it. And how do I share that? And how do I make that into a visual front end using Power BI. And I've learned a lot of valuable lessons there that I use in my work because I've done all those things. So, I know where we can do certain things to make the data cleaner or where you should do them. And where you absolutely shouldn't.
Scree (00:14:03):
So, 400 million entries of people logging in and logging out of Discord's not the one you want to do transformations on in Power BI. So, just small things along the line that lessons learned and always index your databases. That was a fun one.
Rob Collie (00:14:18):
Yeah. I want to pump something up here, which is that these sorts of side projects, like what you just described, those are the real thing. This is where real programmers come from. For example, you had to opt in to take an AP computer science course in high school. What I've come to realize is that, that sort of volunteerism is much more important than any sort of formal training when it comes to programming. I've had the formal training. I'm a card carrying comp sci major. I've got a bachelor's degree in computer science. Look at that. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. And I'm just not into it. I'm just not into programming at all. It doesn't speak to me. VBA, okay, fine. Give me some VBA.
Rob Collie (00:15:00):
But all of the good stuff that I've ever done, all of my shining programming projects, all of them have been personal projects. And right now, if we were running a software org where we were primarily a bunch of programmers, if that's what P3 was. Now, we do programming for sure. But we don't put ourselves out there as a software development shop. That's not our core competency. But if we were doing that and I was involved in the screening process for potential developers that we were going to hire, I would be looking primarily for what they do with their spare time. If they go to work and program and then when they clock out, they don't do any more programming, I don't know. I'm going to decrement their value. I'm going to say, "Nah, that's a check minus."
Scree (00:15:40):
Yeah, but at the same time, if someone comes to you with a COVID Power BI dashboard, are you doing a jig around the table? Because I've seen enough of those to vomit.
Rob Collie (00:15:49):
Oh, yeah. There's plenty of those. In fact, we're in the process right now of retooling our interview. And it definitely does not involve a show us your best COVID dashboard.
Scree (00:16:01):
And I get it. What dataset are you going to work on that's not proprietary?
Rob Collie (00:16:05):
Yeah.
Scree (00:16:05):
You're going to use the most prevalent one that's out there. But, oh man.
Rob Collie (00:16:08):
Yeah. And talk about data quality issues, right?
Scree (00:16:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:16:10):
Depending upon where you got the data, your model can conclude we're all dead already.
Scree (00:16:16):
Yeah, or China still has only had 6,000 COVID cases, or something. Like, it stopped. They don't have COVID anymore.
Rob Collie (00:16:24):
I had a high school teacher in history class that told us, "There's so many problems with history, folks." At the very beginning, he went through all the different flaws in the story. He's like, "People forget. People write things down wrong," whatever. And then he goes, "And also, people lie. They just lie." And you never really know what you're getting. We weren't there to witness it, so we're trying to piece together what actually happened. That's certainly true with all the various different places you can get COVID data.
Scree (00:16:51):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:16:52):
Look at Florida. Wow, they're doing great.
Scree (00:16:54):
But I do agree with your original ... Like, if you're not working on the stuff outside of work, is it really something you're passionate about? And if you're not really passionate about it, are you really better than someone who is?
Rob Collie (00:17:05):
Yeah.
Scree (00:17:06):
And I question that. Again, I don't expect it out of teammates and peers. But it definitely sets them apart when they do, right? They've probably run into more things. It's a matter of experience. The joke right now in the Power BI LinkedIn is everyone's looking for five to 10 years Power BI experience, when Power BI's only been out for really five years. Six maybe.
Rob Collie (00:17:27):
Yeah. What a silly metric by the way. Years of experience. You know? It goes back to the gaming metaphor, right? You need someone just to sort of put in some time and grind and grind, and grind, that's different than someone who's actually really good at it.
Scree (00:17:40):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:17:40):
Off and on, gosh, I think I took a 12 year break, or an 11 year break from gaming, really of all forms. 11 years clean is what I call it. 11 years clean of World of Warcraft. And when I went back, I went right back to classic, which is the thing I'd been playing before when I quit. And I'm no better than I was, right?
Scree (00:18:01):
My wife would be lucky if I was 11 days clean. So, kudos.
Rob Collie (00:18:05):
Now, my life doesn't support, at all, the idea of being part of a really active guild that's doing these 25, 40 person deals that run for hours, and you're not really sure when they're going to end and all of that. That is not compatible with my life anymore, at all. You were saying you weren't formally trained and all that. And I want to say, who cares?
Scree (00:18:25):
Yeah, even Power BI. Who gets formally trained? Five years ago, there wasn't any formal training. Back then, you just did it, and if you didn't, you found someone who had done it before, and you learned. I was there at the ground floor and there was no formal training. It would've been irrelevant because the application has grown and expanded and evolved by leaps and bounds. Every six months there's a huge release or feature set that comes out that just changes the game on its heels. I mean, it helps if you involved five years ago, and now you understand all those changes and what they were. And maybe nowadays, the formal training's probably necessary because the app has grown to that point where I don't understand how you pick it up on your own. There's just so much to it.
Rob Collie (00:19:10):
Well, surprise, surprise. You're not going to find me to be a big believer in formality. Let's say we looked at all of the different training and instruction options available in the entire universe for Power BI right now, how would we go about defining whether one of them was formal or not? When P3 runs a three day training that is open to the public to sign up for, as opposed to the ones we do privately for individual companies, is that formal? I don't know. I mean, it's certainly real.
Scree (00:19:40):
To me, I'd say formal training would be, yeah, anyone putting on an actual training that has some sort of professional experience. Yeah, I don't think you have to get more specific than that definitely.
Rob Collie (00:19:52):
Because the other end of the spectrum is something you might not have been exposed to. I call it the training factories. There's a small number of people behind the scenes that are just churning out training modules on topics that they have no experience in whatsoever.
Scree (00:20:06):
Yeah. Yeah, the Power BI grifter. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:20:08):
This is by no means limited to Power BI. It's everywhere. I watch these people operate. They're like, "Oh, what's new and hot today? Okay, I'll go make a training for that." I go look at the training. I'm like, "Well, this person's never touched this in any sort of real environment." However, they make a ton of money selling those scripts, those modules to all of these training centers throughout the country. And so, if you want to go get some worthless certificate that says that you've completed a Power BI training course, you can go get it, and you would've gained a lot more with your time there if you'd just been screwing around with guild data, or NFL ... Whatever. Some sort of personal hobby dataset.
Scree (00:20:45):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:20:45):
Whatever time you spent following the flow chart. And it's not even a flow chart, right? It never branches, these training scripts. I guess for me, I start getting the alarm bells. Oh, well I went to a training center and I took one of these training factory classes and learned nothing. In fact, probably learned some really bad things that were net negative for my understanding of the tool.
Scree (00:21:05):
Yeah. I mean, I've run into some of those just doing what I do, consulting. In larger companies, it's more obvious where they've held a company-wide training on Power BI and you get people who are making reports and breaking capacity all the time. It's usually those people who are to blame because they took that training and they think they know what they're doing, and had no understanding of the underlying stuff because it was just a cursory glance at what Power BI does. But that's common. You're always going to have different levels of skills.
Rob Collie (00:21:33):
Let's rewind and say as much as 10 years ago, I was providing formal training on Power BI. Instructor led formal trainer. I just didn't call it that. I didn't wear a tie.
Scree (00:21:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:48):
No tie required for this. So, along the same line, I was recently asked to help a recent college graduate who's sort of a distant relative of mine, with his job search as a CS grad, computer science grad. And started with his resume. And as I talked to him, the thing that I was most interested in, that I thought was the best signal that he could send to potential recruiters who were reading, scanning through resumes at 10,000 per minute with OCR, or whatever. He had done this project. He had built a Discord bot for he and his friends to make real time wagers against each other like who was going to win certain games and things like that and keep score and everything. I'm lik, "Oh, no, no, no." And it wasn't even on his resume. That needs to be first. Not in your project list, right? Not the thing that you were forced to do in your senior project course to get your degree, because you look at that and you're just like, "Oh, this reads like every other senior project course ever." Is just so vanilla.
Scree (00:22:46):
So, I've actually heard that a lot of software engineering firms will actually scan resumes for GitHub addresses.
Rob Collie (00:22:53):
Wow.
Scree (00:22:54):
And if you don't have one on there, then it shows that you don't really have a portfolio of work that you could show off, which is how you would basically show your familiarity with subject matter off of a resume.
Rob Collie (00:23:07):
I need to circle back.
Scree (00:23:08):
So, all side projects should go into that GitHub repository and link that in your profile. You're going to find hiring managers who are going to want to go, "How does this guy program? Does this code even look good? Is this someone I can train?" So, he should probably spend some time cleaning it up because I've been in his shoes. Does he comment his code? Probably not. Is it one big file, or should it be multiple files? Those are the kind of things that maybe he could spend some time on while he's looking for a job.
Rob Collie (00:23:35):
Hey, you know, that's why we do these podcasts, right? I believe all of those things. Those things you just said, they make total sense to me. He submitted his resume to a bunch of places, the big places, and didn't get any follow up. I'm thinking, well there's got to be something, either a red flag in your resume that's disqualifying you. Or a lack of a green flag, something that they're looking for that's not there. GitHub address.
Scree (00:24:00):
Well, it could also be school.
Rob Collie (00:24:01):
Yeah, that's true.
Scree (00:24:03):
Maybe. I'd be really interested to see how many local school people they hire at Amazon. It's probably none. Well, Amazon maybe does it. But Facebook and Google.
Rob Collie (00:24:14):
It's so weird. It's such a departure from the Microsoft that I joined. Famously, Gates didn't even graduate. Right? They never asked for my transcript. Never cared about my grades. Never validated that I had graduated. In fact, my office mate when I first got there, hadn't graduated and hadn't told anyone and was just still finishing his coursework. And it was more of a prove it mentality, as opposed to pedigree.
Scree (00:24:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:24:41):
I really like that. We have gone with that mentality at P3 completely. Pedigree means nothing. What you can do is everything. And that cuts both directions. You can have a great pedigree and be relatively not competent.
Scree (00:24:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:24:56):
And not curious. So much of what we do relies on empathy and humility and emotional intelligence and real world connection with other people. And also, confidence and humility at the same time, the perfect blend of it. And these are things that there are some 22 year olds that absolutely possess these qualities. Hats off to them. I didn't possess these qualities at least until my late 30s.
Scree (00:25:24):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:25:25):
We have people who work at the company who are definitely younger than that. But it just took me a while. I think refinement and experience is crucial to us. And frankly, people at our company, we support them, we onboard them. There's plenty of support behind the scenes for anybody who's running into difficult problems. But there is no shallow end of the pool at P3. We don't get to dictate to our clients how difficult their problems are.
Scree (00:25:50):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:25:51):
And we don't even really know going in. So, basically everyone's got to be a black belt on their first day.
Scree (00:25:57):
I think it's just more to the bigger picture of there's not 100,000 five year veterans with that kind of skillset like you guys have.
Rob Collie (00:26:08):
Yeah.
Scree (00:26:08):
And what's your solution if you can't find any? Just not provide that service? I think companies have to find a way to provide that service if there's a demand for it. And so, I think it's going to require a big shift. I mean, Power BI has been growing leaps and bounds. The fact that it's tossed in now for clients who already have a basic Office package for their corporate environment are finding it's a more cost effective solution than something like Tableau.
Rob Collie (00:26:34):
Oh, yeah.
Scree (00:26:34):
Why would you waste the money paying for two different packages when you already got one of them included. So, I see a lot of companies switching to Power BI and then struggling to have any meaningful talent in it. If they weren't working on it before, and these people are long time veterans in their company, well they're certainly not going to have the experience ready to go when you guys pull the trigger to move. So, that seems to be where I'd say, I don't know, out of my last five clients, there's probably four of them who have switched to Power BI and just don't have a huge amount of talent in it.
Rob Collie (00:27:03):
And of course, this is central to our business model, is that we have a concentration of talent that is rare. And increasingly, we're rethinking the way that our marketing activities work. We call it grow dev internally. I'm a big believer in verb over a noun marketing. Well, we could just sit around and do marketing. What does that mean? Let's go grow the company, right? And for the longest time, that has meant client growth. Finding new clients that we can help. It's increasingly become both. It's a supply and demand. We also need to be turning our attention to recruiting and it's the same sort of digital funnel with different twists and turns in it for sure. But we're in the envious position, or the good problem to have. We are now finding new work quite a bit faster than we've even been hiring. I think we have the riddle cracked. I think we can continue to hire the right kind of talent at the pace that we need. It's just that we need to invest more specifically in that activity than what we have in the past. And so, this is an exciting new problem for 2022.
Scree (00:28:13):
It's just a tough time to find talent. I mean, we've had an open call for Power BI talent and Tableau talent for months and months, and months, and we just haven't been finding anyone. I think we brought on someone a couple weeks ago and I was kind of flabbergasted when I interviewed her that someone like this was available because we've been looking and we couldn't find anyone.
Rob Collie (00:28:32):
Yeah.
Scree (00:28:33):
It's just a weird time. And I think it's probably more true of software engineers, because there's so much more competition for being able to move anywhere, remote only work. And it's just kind of turned the field on its head because why live in San Francisco and pay $4,800 dollars for a closet when I could go live in Idaho in a mansion and pay the same amount, and make the same amount of money doing it. So, I think it's turning the whole industry on its head, and it's making job searching and hunting for talent so much more competitive. And I'm sure that's true of every industry. But some of the more technically inclined fields, it's probably tougher than others.
Rob Collie (00:29:07):
Yeah, COVID, obviously is a bad thing. But we were forever remote only. And that was a big advantage for us for a long time. We were a 100% remote workforce. Before it was cool. Before it was COVID cool. If you looked at a map of where our people lived, we certainly had employees in big cities. But relative to population density, our employees were not concentrated in big cities the way that you would typically expect, just based on population, right? And so, yeah. People who were, sometimes even two hours from a major airport were on the payroll and they're awesome. And those same people who live in those non metropolitan locales, there are a lot more employers competing for those same people, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:29:50):
All right. So, this usually one of the very, very, very first questions I ask somebody. But we started with games and guilds and Undead Lords. We had to go there first, right? So, computer science AP class in high school. I did not do that. It was available to me, but I didn't. I showed my stripes early. Mm-mm (negative). No. Uh-uh (negative). But when did you start working with data in a way that you would consider where you first discovered the itch, like, "Oh, I could do this?"
Scree (00:30:18):
So, I've worked in sales for a significant portion of my professional career. Both at Best Buy and then at a bank that's based out of Chicago. Best Buy was developing into this as I was working there, and I worked there for almost 10 years. But they started coming out with metrics and stats of sales level, employee level performance, kind of showing you what you've sold over the last month, and attachment rates, et cetera, et cetera. And as a sales department manager, I started tracking performance of our teams and just getting a little bit of a taste of what it looks like to actually turn register transactions into some sort of data that gives me ... I mean, for context, before this existed, you basically had employees writing down what they were doing and hoping that that was accurate or even truthful at the time. There was no way really to verify it short of printing out hundreds of receipts for every single sale that an employee did. And it was just too monotonous to measure and maintain that.
Scree (00:31:20):
But we had several times throughout my career where they tried doing that. Sales manager come with this brilliant idea. So, when it finally became automated, it started to make the whole process a lot easier. And it just opened my eyes to, okay, now I know who's really bad at selling X. I can go coach and train them to get them better at that. And I don't have to worry about the data integrity piece, which is what we probably spent most of our time worrying about, which wasn't even something that should have been something we wasted a moment of effort on. But again, the data integrity piece was so critical to be able ascertain who's doing what, I think we just lost the road through the forest there.
Scree (00:32:00):
So, near the end of my career at Best Buy, we did start automating the process and the data became so much more eye opening to me as to, "Oh, yeah. Now we can actually use this." Course correct employees and train them in the right ways. And when I went to the bank, we did a lot of the same things there. All the personal bankers were weighed and measured based on performance. And you were given a ranking out of the whole company, and everyone was trying to compete to get to the top. So, again, that data piece was just always constant in my peripheral vision. So, when I moved on from that and went into E-commerce, that's where the data metrics piece, it was overwhelming. If you work with Amazon at all, like a seller, they have data on things that I'd say 90% of the people have no clue what it is or how to use it correctly. So, I worked for a firm that actually did that kind of work with them and said, "Hey, here's the important metrics you need to understand. Here's the things that you have to focus on." Running of reports and stuff like that. So, it's been an evolution throughout my career seeing data and seeing the value of data.
Scree (00:33:04):
And then, obviously my side projects have gone into the whole how you gather data and collect it and store it. So, it all kind of came together there, I think at the end as Power BI was really kind of rocking and rolling.
Rob Collie (00:33:17):
Going back to the Best Buy story for a moment, if you can remember. This might not be the resolution that you record at those moments. But, maybe. When you go from a subjective measurement of your employees or a team in terms of how well they're doing, it's so heavily weighted towards, as you walk around the store, you witness a customer interaction, and that one interaction weighs really heavy in your picture of how this employee operates, whether positive or negative. Right? It becomes this out sized dominant piece of information. And then also the way that people talk to you, the way that they are able to portray themselves to you, of course, you're vulnerable to being mislead there. And then on the flip side, people who don't represent themselves well, right? So, do you remember being surprised at what the objective data said and how different that was from your subjective opinion at the time?
Scree (00:34:08):
Yeah, especially when the automated system flipped in and we were getting real time data as to who was doing what. I remember that first month just being blown away by it because you're right. When we would coach and train an employee, we'd follow them and shadow their interaction with a customer. And so, we'd be listening to the whole thing, kind of secretly and not so secret. Because you'd see this manager hovering around the interaction. And it wasn't a good indication of how the employee operates when you're not there. They would always do everything that they were required to do, short of them forgetting something, which inevitably, they always did. That's the red flag, right? If they forgot to do something when they're being watched, chances are they're not doing it when they're not being watched either. But you didn't think about it at the time. You just chalked it up to maybe being nervous that they were being observed.
Scree (00:34:55):
But, yeah. The datasets were completely different. We'd have people that were turning in numbers that didn't align with what was showing up automated. And I remember there being a lot of turnover at that point, in the coming months because the people who were casting themselves in a better light weren't actually doing that good. They'd have one interaction per day that was stellar and the rest were complete garbage. And they'd show off the one really good thing. And then you'd run around and brag about their performance on that one really good transaction, and then they'd secretly be on the other side of the store just ringing people up without offering them anything, like all the Best Buy stuff that you're supposed to offer.
Scree (00:35:30):
Yeah, it was kind of eye opening. And it was great. It was like the big brother effect, right? You're able to see the total picture, and before that we couldn't. It was eye opening to me. And it helped, honestly, a lot of our employees who weren't good at sales admit that because they couldn't hide it anymore, and then they would come forward and ask for help. But then there were some who didn't really care to improve. They were just there for a paycheck. And so, those employees have to go too at some point.
Rob Collie (00:35:59):
Yeah, it's like the old prisoner's dilemma thing again, right? It's in everybody's best interest to simultaneously come forward and be vulnerable and admit that they're not very good at things. But if only one of them does it, then it's not going to go well for them. You know? And so, no one does. But then, when you level set the objective reality for everyone, there is that moment of relief for some people. I can imagine that they are able to improve and be helped to improve.
Scree (00:36:26):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:36:27):
Yeah, I wouldn't have thought about that. So, sometimes the big brother thing isn't all bad.
Scree (00:36:32):
It is and it's not. So, I was there at Best Buy during the 2009 recession.
Rob Collie (00:36:37):
Ooh, fun.
Scree (00:36:38):
So, you've got sales goals that were generated a year before. So, completely ignorant to the whole the economy sucks now. Everyone's fired. And they're like, "Well, you're not hitting your goals." And I'm like, "Yeah. Have you looked at the store? There's only three people in the store." Well, go sell to them. Just cognitive disconnect because the upper leadership's wondering why all of a sudden we're not hitting goals. And it's like, "Are you paying attention to the news at all?" It was harsh because then you're able to actually see line level employees who aren't generating sales. But is it really their fault? It was just a weird time. I wasn't a fan of being held responsible for economic situations. And that's really what we were doing, is holding employees to that accountability, which is nonsense.
Rob Collie (00:37:22):
That's no good at all, no. Almost like a new principle just came to me as you were telling that story which is thoughtlessness gets magnified by layers of management.
Scree (00:37:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:37:32):
It's just so easy. Default state is thoughtlessness. Just hold the wheel steady if that's the mentality. As that mentality flows down an organization, it only gains momentum.
Scree (00:37:43):
Yeah. And one of the offshoots of this whole thing was that we had all these middle managers who kept visiting our stores. Well, Best Buy decided that, maybe the middle managers don't really serve a purpose. If we're going to miss our goals, then they're not really useful. So, basically got rid of most of the middle managers. And I remember when I learned this, I was wondering why they hadn't been coming at us as hard about missing goals. And it was because the people that they were accountable to weren't there anymore. So, the pressure stopped flowing down hill when they made these changes. But never truly went away. And then, shortly after the recession, it was the whole people were using Best Buy as a showroom. They'd walk in with their cell phones. This was the big new thing. They'd look at what they wanted and then go price shop and you'd inevitably find this stupid site, BNH of Maine or something. And it was every TV was 50% off with no taxes. And then people would be like, "I want this for this price." And we're like, "Get lost." Because you'd have to pay like $1,200 in shipping to get it. So, it was like go for it.
Scree (00:38:46):
It was so prevalent that we were coached and trained on how to sell to people who had their cell phones out. And I'm like, at that point, are they really going to pull the trigger from us? But, we were able to convert some of them.
Rob Collie (00:38:59):
I had a client years and years ago that one of their lines of business was shopping at Best Buys and places like that on behalf of the manufacturers. Does this sound familiar?
Scree (00:39:13):
Sort of.
Rob Collie (00:39:14):
They would go in there to see if all the Best Buy stores, for instance ... Best Buy wasn't their only place that they deployed these anonymous shoppers, right?
Scree (00:39:22):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Secret shoppers, they call them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had those. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:39:26):
But this was very specifically aimed at verifying if the, I don't know, the new Sony TV was being displayed properly.
Scree (00:39:36):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:39:37):
Was it playing the right video? Was it on the end cap as agreed to in the contract?
Scree (00:39:44):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:39:44):
Were the fliers out or whatever, right? And then, eventually, all of that human intelligence flowed up into spreadsheets that these people I was working with were having to report on. And then, they needed to use Power Pivot at the time to help bring that whole process under control. Were you ever on the receiving end of a manufacturer complaining about the ...
Scree (00:40:05):
When I first got hired at Best Buy, I was actually their marketing manager. So, I would set the end caps and stuff like that. So, I was directly exposed to these people. They'd come to me and say, "Hey, this isn't supposed to be here. Can you remove this?" Because they couldn't touch anything, so it was always, "Can you do this? Can you do that?"
Rob Collie (00:40:21):
Yeah.
Scree (00:40:21):
And then I'd have other people who were like, "Can you just sign off that I was here." I would just have to sign their stuff. So, yeah. Those people were fine, because ultimately they didn't care. They were just collecting a paycheck. They weren't super picky. If something was wrong, they'd just write it down and we wouldn't even hear about it. And to be honest, we would never even hear from Sony saying, "Hey, your end cap is improperly set." So, even if it was wrong, we never heard anything. So, I don't know what those people were getting paid for or where that message was going to.
Rob Collie (00:40:48):
Oh no.
Scree (00:40:49):
But we did have secret shoppers, people who would come in and act like they were buying stuff from us. And then, they would buy stuff and their entire motive was to find out if you offering everything that Best Buy should be offering. And so, were you wearing your name tag was the big one. Were you able to identify this person by their name tag? And you got reamed by corporate and senior management within the store if you didn't have your name tag on. Did you offer them a warm greeting. It was just like spot checking. And we'd always get a kick out of it when a manager or an assistant manager got interviewed by these people and didn't do, and then they'd throw it in the garbage because they didn't want anyone to know that they didn't do what they were supposed to.
Rob Collie (00:41:33):
Reminds me a little bit of the flare in Office Space.
Scree (00:41:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:39):
12 pieces of flare is the minimum. But this guy wears 20. Well, why don't you just make 20 the minimum? Ah, I don't think ...
Scree (00:41:48):
And it was always so random too. We'd get two visits of these a month. Sometimes we'd have the same employee get interviewed twice and you'd get a score at the end. And it was just a kudos piece, a coaching piece. Hey, this person sucked. Can you go coach and train them? But if that employee was our number generator in revenue for the store, based on the actual data we had, then we just basically ignored those. I don't know. It was one of those weird, cognitive dissidence pieces where you'd look at the data versus this random one off interaction, because a lot of times these people didn't know how to actually role play with a customer. So, it was just an awkward interaction to begin with.
Rob Collie (00:42:24):
Oh yeah.
Scree (00:42:25):
Because they're faking like they're buying something, and that they're generally interested in what you're trying to sell them.
Rob Collie (00:42:30):
That's right. They might not be interested in that thing, and it's not their money that they're parting with.
Scree (00:42:36):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:42:37):
It's very tricky to make it real.
Scree (00:42:40):
You'd get some very non social people. And this wasn't a high paying gig.
Rob Collie (00:42:45):
Well, that's realistic.
Scree (00:42:46):
I think they got $20 bucks per mystery shop. I don't know how you make a living on that driving around to all the stores.
Rob Collie (00:42:52):
I mean, this is the economics of operating at scale in a people-centric industry, is amazing. And this is why I am so blown away by Starbucks. In the way that McDonald's is often talked about, and they'd even self identify as more of a real estate company than a fast food company. I think Starbucks is an HR miracle. Think of the complexity of what the team at a Starbucks has to juggle at all times. Are you a Starbucks client? Do you frequent Starbucks?
Scree (00:43:28):
No, I'm a Red Bull client.
Rob Collie (00:43:30):
Red Bull client. Okay, that's a choice. We just choose different delivery mechanisms.
Scree (00:43:38):
Basically.
Rob Collie (00:43:39):
There are, factually speaking, probably like a billion different combinations of things that someone can order in a Starbucks. Even if you're just limiting it to one drink, there's got to be a billion possibilities.
Scree (00:43:52):
Yeah, I believe it.
Rob Collie (00:43:53):
And some of them are on menu. Some of them are off menu. And the pace at which they have to operate, sustained pace, it's unbelievable. And I think with COVID, it's even gotten worse. I think Starbucks are more busy now than they've ever been, in a weird way.
Scree (00:44:09):
I believe it.
Rob Collie (00:44:09):
And the clientele at a Starbucks, let's just say that it skews towards entitled.
Scree (00:44:17):
Yeah, I'd say so. You're paying $14 dollars for a coffee, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:44:23):
The incidents of jerks that you have to deal with. And also, by the way, these aren't just people in their natural state. They're also people who are in a hurry. And it's just so easy to get it wrong given all the combinations and everything. And the complexity of all the orders. The intensity of the customers and their expectations and everything. And every time I go in a Starbucks, I just stand in awe. Starbucks baristas I think are ... I don't know what they're paid. Ignoring pay for a moment. The fact that it's even possible to have this many high performing people deployed in this manner at a given point in time in the universe is just incredible. I think there are entire businesses that could be formed just on the idea of going in and poaching baristas from Starbucks.
Scree (00:45:14):
I looked it up.
Rob Collie (00:45:14):
All right, what do we got?
Scree (00:45:15):
Less than $13 dollars an hour, national average.
Rob Collie (00:45:19):
Really? Even now? My son went and got a job, his first job ever this summer at Home Depot, and they paid him $15 an hour.
Scree (00:45:26):
And it's national average.
Rob Collie (00:45:27):
Oh boy. There's got to be better benefits or something.
Scree (00:45:31):
Yeah, I imagine they have decent ... I mean, it seems like they have got benefits. But still, yeah, you'd expect them to be paid more.
Rob Collie (00:45:37):
And whatever the number is, I'm sure it's not enough. I don't think it's just a training thing. I think it's also their ability to screen. They find just amazing people that, I would say that half the people that I interact with at a Starbucks are people that I wish I could hire in some capacity. That's the impression I come away with. Just really, really, really impressive. Maybe that doesn't apply to secret shoppers at Best Buy.
Scree (00:46:00):
Probably not. But it is an impressive achievement that they've been able to find people who are willing to do that for as little as they seem to be making.
Rob Collie (00:46:08):
Well, Scree, I think you should temporarily suspend your Red Bull habit just for a week, and develop yourself some sort of really obscure boutique order. If you need me to just come up with one for you, I'll give you what I usually order. Go in, slap your money down on the barrel head, and tell them, "I want a quad grande one pump mocha, please." That's a relatively simple order. It doesn't have that many words in it. I think it's a six word order. I saw on Facebook the other day a meme that if your coffee order has more than five words in it, there's something wrong with you. And I'm like, "Damn, I've got six." Just barely over the threshold. But then just watch the system spring to life and watch all the other things that they're doing. Watch all the things that they're juggling, and even avoiding running into each other. And it's quite an operation. And I think most people take it for granted, but I just stand there in awe every time. Just, wow.
Scree (00:47:01):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:02):
So, back to Best Buy for a moment. Those reports, they were just coming at you. You weren't part of preparing them?
Scree (00:47:07):
Not at all. Yeah, it's all internal behind the scenes stuff. We would just refresh them.
Rob Collie (00:47:11):
But it would still give you, a light bulb would go off for you. Like, "Oh, this is different." This objectivity and automation. Did you have any idea what sort of tech they were using, or was it just built into the point of sale registers almost?
Scree (00:47:26):
I don't know what backend they were using. I couldn't even have told you. It was all obfuscated to the point where there was no recognizable anything on our end.
Rob Collie (00:47:34):
There was probably reporting services or some equivalent.
Scree (00:47:38):
Yeah, I'm sure. But, yeah. I wish I could've seen it. But, no. I never actually got a chance to dive into that piece with them. I jumped into a gaming role with them. They launched a gaming department, and within six months it had flopped. And so, they offered all the gaming managers severance packages and I took it and left. I fled. I was like, "I'm done with Best Buy as a career." And it helped me get out of that whole retail sales industry. It was awful.
Rob Collie (00:48:04):
Escape velocity.
Scree (00:48:05):
I had started dating and then was about to get married, and I was like, "I need to get out of here." I can't do the whole random schedule every day and not see my wife most nights. So, I'm like, "I'm going to go find a job in banking because they have the greatest hours." You know? And it took me four or five months. But it's still a sales job, effectively. I mean, banking is still sales. So, got in and did great there for several years.
Rob Collie (00:48:31):
Having business accounts at banks exposes me to a level of sales coming at me from the bank that I'm unaccustomed to as an individual banker.
Scree (00:48:44):
Yeah. It's just a different type of sales, and you just had to know your clients well enough. There were times you didn't want to sell to them, if you were just building a relationship. If they're just opening an account, chances are it's not the right time to offer them the entire gamut of services that we offer. Get them what they came in for, set them up, contact them again a week later, and then work from there. There were tips and tricks that I learned through my time there. And honestly, in some ways, banking was easier than retail sales. I didn't have to waste time answering what an HDMI cable is, or a UBC cable because everyone would mispronounce, and I'd just look at them confused for 10 minutes. The tech support piece was removed from my plate and it meant more honest conversations with clients. So, I preferred it in the long run.
Rob Collie (00:49:33):
Yeah, it's a bit more straightforward transactional rather than upsell. That makes sense to me.
Scree (00:49:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:38):
So, at the bank, you were also, I would assume, were on the receiving end of reports, rather than the construction end.
Scree (00:49:45):
Sometimes. When I was there, they actually launched Salesforce. We transitioned our entire client management system over to Salesforce. So, I was a super user that piloted this rollout. And Salesforce had all sorts of interesting information embedded within it that we didn't have access to before. And I kind of data mined the shit out of it. So, I knew when mortgages and home equity lines of credit were coming up and needed to be renewed. And so, I had lists of every loan coming due in a hundred miles of our location and I had reached out to all of them. So, just stuff like that, that I knew no one else would have any inkling of how to do it because they just aren't tech savvy.
Rob Collie (00:50:30):
That's so cool. That had to have been a big transitional moment for you. A number of years on the receiving end as a consumer of these reports and seeing the value of them. So, therefore, developing the appetite. Developing the sense of business value. And then, one day someone shows up and says, "Oh, look, here's the menu."
Scree (00:50:51):
Yeah. I do remember getting my hand slapped down, though, pretty hard, because I was stealing loans from other branches.
Rob Collie (00:50:59):
Too effective. Too effective.
Scree (00:51:00):
The bank manager started catching on that I was calling on their clients and were like, "What the fuck?" So, they had conversations. They're like, "How are you getting these lists?" And I was like, "What are you talking about? These people naturally just wanted me to call them." The gig was up at that point. And so, I showed them how I pulled my list. And then every branch manager had to run their own list and distributed it to their employees. Said, "You get this client, you get this client." And so, after a few months of me stealing half the sales in the region ...
Rob Collie (00:51:34):
On net, they won out from this, right? Because they learned new behaviors as a result of what you were doing. Well, we should all be doing this and making rules around it.
Scree (00:51:44):
Yeah. And I think ultimately, being able to see loan data inside Salesforce was an oversight on their part.
Rob Collie (00:51:51):
Yeah, probably.
Scree (00:51:52):
But it was meant so that if you went into a customer's profile on Salesforce, you could see all of their accounts. So, you would know that they have a business account or a personal account, or a credit card, or et cetera. And so, you wouldn't have to go cross reference it with a different system every conversation you had. You would have a customer call in, you'd pull up their Salesforce, and you'd be able to see everything at a glance. That was the intent. Now, the sad secondary effect was that all the accounts were in Salesforce and it made it really easy for me to run queries against it. Salesforce was built as a super simple tool to run searches and find clients that meet certain patterns. And so, I was just ahead of the curve there. And it helped that I was kind of tech savvy going into it. You had a lot of older banker types who were 50, 60, who didn't want to use computers in the first place, and I'm eating their lunch month after month because of the insights that I had at that point.
Scree (00:52:49):
But at the same point, there were also some really funny moments where I would have a conversation with a customer and they were nuts. Like someone's calling in asking about UFOs or something, and can a UFO get into my account. My modem's making a noise. Does that mean someone's hacking my bank account? And I'd be like, "What did I just walk into?" And I'd go into their Salesforce profile and there's no notes. So, I would leave these really detailed hilarious comments so that if anyone ever went to that client's profile again in the future, they'd get to see the nut show that the person was.
Rob Collie (00:53:20):
Yeah.
Scree (00:53:20):
And I would get random texts six, eight months later of people cracking up reading my notes. So, small little pieces of joy like that, that come back tenfold. He was like, "That guy is nuts. I was reading your note, and it made me laugh."
Rob Collie (00:53:36):
Can UFOs get into my bank account? Well, if they want to.
Scree (00:53:41):
Yeah. I was like sure.
Rob Collie (00:53:43):
If they can traverse the galaxy and get there-
Scree (00:53:45):
Well, you're not a good bank then if you let UFOs into my account. Well, yeah. You know, you should probably take your money elsewhere. Sorry.
Rob Collie (00:53:51):
Yeah. Go find one that advertises as UFO proof.
Scree (00:53:54):
I mean, you could just tell them you wrapped the safe in tin foil or something, and he's probably fine. But I'd say Salesforce was probably the first time where I actually had the opportunity to interact with the data on my own, on my own terms. And that was just further evolution of my course towards data. And that's where I started my MBA when I was at the bank.
Rob Collie (00:54:12):
Okay.
Scree (00:54:13):
And I kind of knew that that's the direction I was going to go, was trying to pick up courses that were data based or data oriented to the extent that I could. I mean, you only had like four elective classes out of the whole program. So, three of the four were in that field.
Rob Collie (00:54:27):
Just so I can background this against other technologies and where they were in their evolution, roughly what timeframe are we talking about here when you were at the bank and doing your MBA?
Scree (00:54:37):
You know what? I'm going to cheat. I'm going to go look at my LinkedIn profile and tell you.
Rob Collie (00:54:41):
But see, go to the objective source. None of this subjectivity. This is what we've been talking about. This has been a theme of the whole conversation.
Scree (00:54:46):
2013 through 2017.
Rob Collie (00:54:49):
Okay. So, in 2013, I was full on in on Power Pivot. In the early days of the blog. I was writing two articles a week and sustained that for some number of years. I was already way, way, way in. But the market didn't really know about it. Just going back to Salesforce for a moment, just out of curiosity, how far were you able to get just using the Salesforce UI to construct queries and reports, versus how often did you have to dump it to Excel to get where you needed to go?
Scree (00:55:19):
I created spreadsheets that we could share with our team. So, eventually, like I said, when the gig was up and we actually had to start tracking this on our own, it was up to the individual managers to assign and keep track of when loans that were maturing needed to be called on. And so, I converted a lot of those reports into Excel file formats. But that was merely just out of ability to share them.
Rob Collie (00:55:41):
Just portability.
Scree (00:55:42):
Yeah. Yeah. But in terms of Salesforce, we didn't really interact on any level beyond just using their UI.
Rob Collie (00:55:50):
Yeah. It's when you get into, "Oh, I need to cross reference this report with that other report. Or there's a calculation I need to perform that that field isn't in Salesforce yet." Those would be the times which you'd have to dump for further analysis.
Scree (00:56:03):
And it was funny because at the time as a super user, I had access to probably more features than eventually we got paired down to. And I was working with this one guy who was the manager in charge of this transition, and he ended up going to work for Salesforce. So, I thought it was interesting, his evolution, watching him go off. I never kept up with him. But it was just interesting to me to see someone who was responsible for rolling out Salesforce to our company, end up going to work for the bigger team. But he always helped me run custom reports if I needed them. If I ever wanted to say, "Hey, is this something that's doable?" He'd be like, "Yeah, sure. Let's do it." And we'd run crazy stuff to just get an idea. We were trying to isolate when people didn't have accounts, which was slightly harder to look up in the Salesforce than people who did have accounts. The not wasn't really a function baked into the UI.
Rob Collie (00:56:56):
Yeah. Yeah.
Scree (00:56:57):
So, he was able to help us limit it by geography and location.
Rob Collie (00:57:01):
Just dying now to use the DAX EXCEPT function against these two lists. I've really gotten into the EXCEPT function lately. That's one of those sentences you'd never really expect to hear. Let me tell you, I'm really liking the INTERSECT and EXCEPT functions these days.
Scree (00:57:20):
You know it's funny because I see lots of time and effort spent on DAX and I've been doing this for five or six years now. And with one exception, I've never really had to do complicated DAX.
Rob Collie (00:57:34):
Interesting.
Scree (00:57:36):
If you focus all your time on making a great data model, the DAX kind of writes itself. Now, there's situations where you can't write the data model because it's already made and some of the DAX can get a little messy. But I've never run into a situation where the DAX was so convoluted that I'm scratching my brain for something.
Rob Collie (00:57:55):
Well, it might be, without seeing the business problems and the datasets that cross your desk, I really can't know. Right?
Scree (00:58:02):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:03):
First of all, I completely agree that get the data model right and the DAX isn't hard. Get the data model wrong and the DAX is impossible.
Scree (00:58:10):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:58:11):
That's certainly true, 100%. Secondly, something that's been coming up a lot in recent episodes of this show anyway, is just how much of a turnoff I would find on the internet today if I was going to try to get into DAX. The stuff I would run into on the internet today would scare the hell out of me. I would want nothing to do with it. It's crazy. So much of the DAXs on the internet right now is this hyper optimal, almost like ivory tower flavor that its whole philosophy is go in construct all of these virtual tables using DAX as a sophisticated query language. And then at the last second, collapse those virtual tables down with arithmetic. It's kind of like violating my noun and verb principle.
Scree (00:58:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:55):
The way I write DAX, the way that I learned to write DAX was very verb oriented. Go do this for me. Right? A calculate of a date's YTD, right? Go do this. Go give me the year to date sum of this. It's very command oriented. It's a verb. But it's taken on a very noun dialect lately. Go build this thing. It has a loose corelation with the answer that I want. But then, in the last minute with a flourish, collapse this thing that I've built, this glistening structure, collapse it down to a number. If I were completely new to DAX, I would go, "Oh my God. This is not for me." So, there's all of that. And then the thought I'll leave you with on this topic, the thing to chew on is that sometimes the reason why I find myself in complicated DAX ... Again, my DAX is not going to be as complicated as the ones I run into on the internet most of the time. But the reason I find myself using things like the EXCEPT function and the INTERSECT function are because my ambitions have been teased.
Rob Collie (00:59:59):
If you're not hungry in the morning, you can walk around a long stretch of the day not hungry. Then if you take a bite of something, invariably, you're going to be hungry, really hungry 30 minutes later. You've awoken the beast. I think there's something like that with DAX as well.
Scree (01:00:15):
I think it ultimately comes down to how the clients are ending up using the reports. And DAX is sort of a derivative of a desire to show something that's not immediately obvious from the data itself, the raw data.
Rob Collie (01:00:29):
Yeah.
Scree (01:00:29):
So, most of the clients that I work with, they're really fundamentally just getting started with Power BI. And so, they're trying to show their data in an efficient way. That isn't to say they're trying to show insights that that data is telling. They're just trying to show the data. And once you get into the insights piece, that's probably where the complicated DAX starts to flow out. And I just don't see that very often because we're getting a lot of those learning to walk people first.
Rob Collie (01:00:59):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Scree (01:01:00):
The ecosystem that gets them to a Power BI report is also pretty convoluted. It's not just the Power BI site, but the data stores. How are you connecting? What is the transformations? How does that data get in there? And so, a lot of time and development gets spent on that. And that's what I think a lot of our clientele tend to spend that initial contract piece with is getting the data into a place that's usable and then converting that into a report. And the insight piece is one of those nice to haves down the line, but it's not something that a lot of clients have an ability to speak to right off the bat because they haven't seen the data in a presentable way yet. My guess is DAX comes into play more towards that second half.
Rob Collie (01:01:41):
I agree. That very much is in line about what I was saying about ambitions. As your ambitions grow, the depth and the complexity of the DAX that you start to wield goes up. And it's an amazing language. We're fortunate, I think, in that we tend to attract the kind of clients who really are looking to ... They're not just looking to replace what they currently have. They're not looking at a new way to visualize numbers that they already have. They want to get to the metrics that they've never had, and they know that they're out there. They know that there's something, that they could be operating off of a much smarter way of visualizing everything. And it's not just about automating all the things that they're already doing. It's not just about getting the manual workout. Now, there is a lot of that too, of course.
Scree (01:02:25):
Yeah. I think I've just had the downside of not getting the really fun stuff yet.
Rob Collie (01:02:30):
Well, you will. You will, especially if you maintain an ongoing relationship with some of these clients over time. They will start to as they get the initial problem space as they conceived of it. As that gets addressed, some of them anyway, will naturally zoom back and go, "Oh, there's a frontier here." And they didn't even perceive the universe outside of that border until they populated it. Until they got it handled. For example, at some point, I will produce and share on Twitter a word cloud of the wordigamis from this episode. The words on this episode that had never appeared in an episode of Raw Data before today. And those words will be sized, by the way, in the word cloud, based on their rarity in the English language. Their usage in the English language. And the number of times they were used in the episode. So, now's the time to drop some vocab. You know? Let's get it into the cloud. You know?
Rob Collie (01:03:31):
And of course, I could probably do that in Power Query if I was good at it. But I look at it and go, "Oh, I can do this in DAX." And this is where my good friends the except and intersect function come into play. And believe it or not, even on approaching million word dataset of all the words ever spoken and transcribed on this show, it's just lightning fast. It just chews it right up. There you go. There's your word cloud. It's so cool.
Scree (01:03:55):
So, I've only been in the consulting area of Power BI since May. Before that, I was in a solutions firm that did E-commerce work, right? And so, I worked on the same product for years. And so, the needs of that were very different than client based. So, I haven't really worked with tons of clients yet. So, I think you're right that over time, we'll see them evolve from learning to walk to running, to the point where I need to get there. So, it's mostly my newness to the whole consultative piece that's limited by exposure to that.
Rob Collie (01:04:29):
Yeah, and that's nothing but good news. You know? You've already got a toolset that's doing amazing things for you, and you're good at it. And to know that there isn't a ceiling on what it can do, or if there is, that ceiling isn't crowding in on your head already. There's head room to grow in terms of your capabilities and in terms of the value you can bring to people. It really is just a hell of a toolset that can address so much breadth and depth. I've said it before, I'll say it again. It belongs in the software hall of fame, if there were such a thing. Maybe they should open it up right next to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland. I'm sure they would get the same number of visitors. Everybody loves the software hall of fame.
Scree (01:05:08):
I like the GitHub repository notice that your data's going to be stored in a vault in, where is it? The Arctic. Have you seen this?
Rob Collie (01:05:18):
No, I haven't. Is it right next to the seed vault to save humanity, all the seeds?
Scree (01:05:24):
I guess. But if you ever commit work, it says, "Hey, your code qualifies to be stored in the Arctic." I think it's the Arctic.
Rob Collie (01:05:33):
Really?
Scree (01:05:33):
It's been a while since I've actually logged in. But it always cracked me up. I'm like, my code for the Undead Lords is being stored in the arctic because that's going to be hugely critical for mankind to bounce back.
Rob Collie (01:05:45):
That's right. That's right. Yeah. I wonder what criteria they use.
Scree (01:05:50):
I think it's just about everything.
Rob Collie (01:05:52):
Really? I mean, I have one add on for Warcraft that I didn't even really write. A friend of mine is a VP at GitHub and wrote all of the guilds. Or he and one other partner in crime wrote very, very, very elaborate EGPG client server add-on for WoW. It's something else. Integrated between the guild website and the endgame add-on. Real time bidding. Real time scoring. It's crazy. And I was like, "Hey, I need an add-on so that I can make snarky comments in the raid." And the comments are all of a particular formula. There's only certain forms of these snarky comments that are just boring. It's just tedious to type the same comment over and over again. So, I need a push button interface that you can drop the right snarky comment at the right time. Again, that's the value that I brought whenever they took me on a mission.
Rob Collie (01:06:48):
That code is probably in the arctic too. All that really was, was a string table that I filled in.
Scree (01:06:53):
Humanity is saved.
Rob Collie (01:06:54):
I know. I know. If you ever need, Rogue Chat 9000 is what I called it. My chief contribution for sure. What have we not talked about that we should have? Is there anything that we haven't gotten into? This is like the elective phase of the conversation. Oh, I never asked you, what games is the guild into right now? You mentioned there's a PVP guild. So, for people who don't know, player versus player guild.
Scree (01:07:20):
Yeah, it's mostly people killing other people in virtual games. They're super aggressively playing New Worlds right now.
Rob Collie (01:07:29):
Okay.
Scree (01:07:30):
Amazon's New Worlds. I don't know if you've heard of it.
Rob Collie (01:07:32):
Nope, I hadn't.
Scree (01:07:33):
It's Amazon's first actually released game. They've had a few that got scrapped along the way. It's had a tumultuous launch.
Rob Collie (01:07:40):
Well, I mean, any good game does.
Scree (01:07:43):
Seemingly, it's the norm now. But yeah, we still got a good 30 or so people playing it.
Rob Collie (01:07:48):
None of you are running around Warcraft.
Scree (01:07:50):
I am not actively playing it. I had too much on my plate for work the last couple months. So, just no time and no energy.
Rob Collie (01:07:58):
Just like me. Work life, professional life, personal life, and then, what? No, I am not treating this game as an IT problem, which is what you kind of have to treat it as. The number of interface modifications and macros and things like that, that my friends use in Warcraft is just insane.
Scree (01:08:18):
Yeah. I used to play it and I remember spending almost as much time on my UI as I did playing the game.
Rob Collie (01:08:25):
Yeah.
Scree (01:08:26):
So, I was in the same boat.
Rob Collie (01:08:27):
I don't need a development problem in my gaming.
Scree (01:08:31):
You know what's interesting though about WoW and its history is that the game's mechanics in the game actually had to evolve and become more difficult because of the UI capabilities that the designers gave the player base.
Rob Collie (01:08:46):
Yes. Yeah.
Scree (01:08:47):
So, they had to make the end game problems more challenging because the players were creating UI solutions to all the problems that they threw at them.
Rob Collie (01:08:53):
Yep.
Scree (01:08:54):
And so, it became this ...
Rob Collie (01:08:55):
An arms race.
Scree (01:08:56):
Arms race.
Rob Collie (01:08:57):
Yeah.
Scree (01:08:58):
And I always found that hilarious, because normally a game developer would just say, "All right, well we'll just turn this off and then you have to play the game our way." But they didn't do that. They let the player base create tools. It's smart. I remember it came to a head during one of the expansions that I played in where someone wrote a mod that told you where to run to in the 3D space.
Rob Collie (01:09:23):
Yeah.
Scree (01:09:24):
So, it said, "This is safe. Run here." And that became so egregious because it basically played the game for you. It wasn't that something was happening that you needed to run from. It was, "Go here and you won't get hit." And that was so egregious that they ended up turning off some of that arms race functionality.
Rob Collie (01:09:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). They're smart, right? I used to tell people on my team that worked for me at Microsoft that every feature take back, everything we took out of the product had an absolute value of impact. It's like 10X of every add, everything you added to the product. So, you've got to be really, really careful about take backs. Blizzard took the right approach. They opened Pandora's box, and rather than try to slam the door shut by neutering and negating and disabling KPI capabilities, they just made the game harder. And it's the same thing with as the play balanced over the years when they discovered that a particular class of character had an advantage over everyone else. The knee jerk response is to take away that advantage. To dial down or nerf the capabilities of that one class. And so, when they could, they didn't do that. When they could, they just introduced capabilities in other classes. They would balance by adding rather than removing.
Rob Collie (01:10:42):
It's a really delicate, delicate balance. It takes master craftsmanship, essentially. It was something to watch. And then, some time after I quit playing, apparently the wheels completely came off of the whole enterprise and the whole game went in the tank. And I never got to witness any of that. I sold at the top apparently and got out.
Scree (01:11:01):
I did too.
Rob Collie (01:11:02):
But now we're riding that same rollercoaster back up to the top of the hill. I'm in the level 70 expansion right now, second time around. I'm looking forward to the level 80 classic expansion. And then we're not sure where they're going to go next.
Scree (01:11:18):
I can't believe that they found as large of an audience for this as they did. It's the most unbelievable thing.
Rob Collie (01:11:25):
It's insane, isn't it? Just imagine a game released in 2005 and people are still playing it today in basically the same form.
Scree (01:11:34):
More people played it today than did at launch.
Rob Collie (01:11:38):
Really? Oh my God.
Scree (01:11:40):
I think that was what I saw.
Rob Collie (01:11:41):
That's crazy.
Scree (01:11:42):
But, the audience is bigger now, right? So, they grew the audience by leaps and bounds.
Rob Collie (01:11:48):
I guess that's true. The people who were playing in 2005 weren't 80 years old, right? So, we're all still around. I mean, almost everyone I play with is so much younger than me that if they were playing at first release, they were like 13 years old.
Scree (01:12:02):
Or not even born yet, which is the case with a lot of the people who are playing Classic right now. So, maybe that's their audience is the people who've been ripping on WoW being so easy, "Back in our day." And these people wanted to go get a taste of that. I don't know, maybe.
Rob Collie (01:12:21):
Have you seen that they've now released WoW Classic: Season of Mastery. Have you heard of this?
Scree (01:12:26):
No. I tapped out of Classic about, I don't know.
Rob Collie (01:12:30):
So, that's like classic, classic. Season of Mastery is like all the rating counters have been slightly buffed up.
Scree (01:12:40):
Oh, God. Yeah, no thanks.
Rob Collie (01:12:41):
So, basically that they have the same level of challenge overall that they did at first launch before everyone figured everything out. Before all the interface mods got so good and all of that. Again, it's an add. They didn't take away the capabilities. They just made the raid bosses harder.
Scree (01:12:58):
No thanks.
Rob Collie (01:12:58):
You don't want to go back and wipe on veil over and over, and over, and over again.
Scree (01:13:03):
We did. We did. I just don't want to do it again. I've already done it twice now. So, a third time, not in the cards.
Rob Collie (01:13:12):
This was a gaming heavy conversation. It's not for everyone. But we got a lot of good, good stuff in about data along the way. Of business data. If you're just here for the business data, we covered that ground. Hopefully that gave us an excuse, air cover for us to talk in this gibberish that five people listening are going to understand. Like, veil. What is veil? You don't want to know. Endless frustration and in-fighting. All right, man. Well, I've really appreciated this. I've enjoyed it. Nice to connect with someone who all I have none of them is an avatar on Twitter. I love that kind of experience. Thanks for being open to doing this. You're putting yourself out there, and I appreciate that you did it.
Scree (01:13:55):
Thanks. I had fun.
Announcer (01:13:57):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Tim Rodman revisits his backyard BBQ education in PowerPivot. Not just any BBQ, this one hosted two corporate powerhouses casually chatting analytic software over the grill. After this informal introduction, Tim went on to become yet another Power BI OG. Flash forward to current times where his experience with Acumatica paired with his background in accounting, ERP systems, and Excel makes him uniquely qualified to build better reporting. Imagine a blank slate where insights that never existed before in an organization just seem to manifest.
Unexpectedly, in this episode, we learn the true nature of mega drilling machines. From Tim’s description of these machines, it’s easy to imagine them as metaphorically linked with Power BI: nimble cutting discs making multiple, surgical cuts that cause little bits to fall away creating colossal tunnels underground– small, incremental changes creating a path to actionable insight.
Contact Tim and check out his website, AUGForums.com
References in this episode:
Better Call Saul Bunker Build
Independence Day Checkmate
TMNT Drill
Tim's First PowerPivotPro.com Blog Post on Self Serve BI Adoption
Tim's PowerPivotPro.com Blog Post on Data Nirvana
Raw Data with Lori Rodriguez
Raw Data with Ken Puhls
Raw Data with Brad and Kai from Agree Media
Hitler Hits A Breaking Point with Tableau
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00): Hello friends! Today, we're jumping into the way back machine because our guest is Tim Rodman. If you rewind about eight or nine years, people from Microsoft would periodically ask me the same question over and over again, which is how are people hearing about Power Pivot? And my answer was always, it's a million different individual stories. And one time, shortly after I met Tim, someone from Microsoft asked me that question, and without missing a beat, I said, well, there's the barbecue vector. They of course blinked and said what? And I said, well, this guy I just met, he learned about Power Pivot at a neighborhood barbecue from a neighbor who had just taken one of my classes. And that chance conversation with a neighbor at a neighborhood barbecue in July of 2012, launched Tim on a completely different career trajectory. Tim was also one of the founding members of the original Power BI User Group in Cleveland, Ohio. And that's where I got to know him personally. Rob Collie (00:00:54): I can't know this for sure, but I think there's a reasonably good chance that Tim and I invented the ConcatenateX function at a bar across the street from the User Group afterwards. He and I lost track of each other for a few years, but he's back on the scene now. And talking to him was almost like a time capsule of sorts reminding me of things that I used to be saying. And one of those things that he reminded me of, which is just as relevant today as it was back then, is that the number one output of Power BI are numbers that didn't exist, numbers that your business needed, but that you could never get. I think that's a great theme, and I'm going to go back to saying it. Rob Collie (00:01:31): He's a savvy operator in the world of ERP systems, and specifically is a big deal in the Acumatica world. We talk about all of that of course, we get into all sorts of interesting nooks and crannies, because he's a very interesting person. It was fantastic catching up with him. I hope you enjoy it as well. So let's get into it. Announcer (00:01:49): Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please? Announcer (00:01:53): This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element. Rob Collie (00:02:15): Welcome to the show. Tim Rodman, it has been a long time. I am so glad to talk to you. How are you today? Tim Rodman (00:02:21): Doing good. Thanks for having me on I've been list thing back through some older episodes, and it's really cool to actually be a guest on here. This is great. Rob Collie (00:02:29): Really, really excited that we get to do this. Now, where do you live these days? Are you still where we met? Tim Rodman (00:02:33): No, we met up in Cleveland, Ohio. I'm now about two hours south in Columbus, Ohio. So still pretty close to you. You're still in Indie, right? Rob Collie (00:02:40): Yep. Still in Indie. You've halved the distance. It's a two and a half hour drive. Although it's weird, when we go to visit Jocelyn's parents in Elyria, we go the north route. We go north from Indianapolis and then shoot over past Cedar Point. But if we're going to the east side of Cleveland, we go the completely different way we go through Columbus. It actually makes quite a bit of difference in arrival time. Tim Rodman (00:03:00): Interesting. Rob Collie (00:03:00): Yeah. Yeah. The boring routes between Indiana and Ohio. That's what people tune in to hear about. They're like, oh- Tim Rodman (00:03:08): It's very flat. Rob Collie (00:03:09): I should optimize my route. Tim Rodman (00:03:13): Yeah. Rob Collie (00:03:14): All right. So why don't we get in the way back machine, first and foremost, how did we cross paths? How much of it do you remember? I'm going to lean on your memory a little bit. I'll jump in with the things that I remember. Tim Rodman (00:03:25): Well, I didn't trust my memory, so I jotted down some notes here. Rob Collie (00:03:27): Ah, comes prepared. Tim Rodman (00:03:30): Yeah. I'm prepared here with my notes. Actually you put at the top of my first blog post on your blog, which was back in April 2014, you put some of the backstory at the very top of that. And I went back to the dates on it, which was July of 2012. So July of 2012, you're not involved yet, but I'm down the street at my neighbor Andy's house in the backyard with a bunch of other neighbors having a barbecue. Andy and I start talking about work, and he brings up this thing called Power Pivot, because you were recently at his company. Rob Collie (00:04:07): Yep. Tim Rodman (00:04:08): Teaching it to them. So that was my first introduction to Power Pivot, July 2012. And then we crossed paths first in September of 2013. So a little over a year later at the Inaugural Excel User Group meeting. Although I like to describe it now as the world's first ever Power BI User Group meeting. Rob Collie (00:04:31): Yeah. Cleveland was patient zero for these user groups. Yeah. Okay, so it's really funny, your neighbor Andy, there's a guy that I'm in contact with every 18 months just sort of randomly. Not your neighbor, Andy, but it's just enough time between that I completely forget that he is not your neighbor, Andy, that introduced you to Power Pivot at a barbecue. And I go, oh, that's right, you're the guy that hooked Tim Rodman. And he goes, oh Rob, you say this to me every time. I am not that guy, but thank you. But yeah, so the barbecue route, you've got to have a real comfort with your neighbors if you get to that point, you know? Tim Rodman (00:05:12): Well, I think it showed how excited he was about it. And what hooked me about it was when he told me his company size, because the company he worked at I think was doing around $800 million a year in revenue at the time, and the company I was at, we were doing around $300 million a year in revenue, and I was outgrowing Crystal Reports, and SSRS, and the stuff we were trying to throw at problems. And so it caught my attention that here's a guy who's at a bigger company and he's using Excel. Rob Collie (00:05:42): Turbo Excel. Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:05:43): Because his tools weren't doing the job either, and that definitely piqued my interest. Rob Collie (00:05:48): Which is really funny, right? $800 million in annual revenue, $300 million in annual revenue. What I have come to realize is that on the grand scale, the overwhelming majority of companies are smaller than that. Now, the majority of total revenue in the world is heavily weighted towards the high end. Right? So the giants do comprise a very large overall percentage of business conducted in terms of dollars, right? But in terms of absolute number of businesses, there's a very, a very long tail that is well below $300 million in annual revenue. And these tools scale up and down that spectrum as if they're not even missing a beat, it doesn't matter how big you are. The only real limit is there's a point at which you're so small that the percentage efficiency gains you would realize by getting a better data strategy together might not be worth the time you put into it. But even that, you've got to be really small for it not to matter. Tim Rodman (00:06:45): Yeah, totally agree. Rob Collie (00:06:46): You've got to be making cupcakes out of your garage. Before it doesn't make a difference. Tim Rodman (00:06:53): Napkin math, right? That's when it scales too far down. Rob Collie (00:06:57): So now it's almost the opposite in a way, Power BI is so official. Whereas Power Pivot was Turbo Excel, like Excel Plus. You had this relief that a company bigger than yours was already using it. That was promising to you. It sort of allowed you to lean forward. Now if those two revenue numbers had been reversed, maybe you wouldn't have. You were a $800 million and they were $300 million. Now of course, it shouldn't make a difference at all, but when you don't know anything going in, of course it makes a difference. But now I think we have the opposite problem where Power BI is so well respected and entrenched and it feels solid, that I think a lot of companies think that they're too small for it, which is not true. And gosh, in terms of pricing, oh my gosh, the pricing for smaller firms, Power BI is priced in a way that the mid-market can and should be devouring it. Perhaps even more aggressively than the enterprise. Rob Collie (00:07:45): So I mentioned to my wife, Jocelyn, today that today's podcast guest is someone that she knew, someone she met, I told her who it was and she goes, oh yeah, he worked the drilling company. And I'm thinking to myself Rigid Tools or DeWalt, but I go, oh, she said the big drilling, and I'm like, all right, yeah. The big drill. That is correct, right? I mean, I remember, as soon as she said that it all came back to me. Tim Rodman (00:08:09): Yeah, that's right. It's called the Robbins Company. Now I haven't been there for many years, but it was a very cool company to work for. And I thought the same thing going in, I pictured a giant DeWalt handheld drill that you go into the earth with, but they're actually flat. And so, what put them on the map was the chunnel from England to France, that project is what put tunnel boring into like, all right, we can really do this, because it was just a very notable project. They actually drilled, I believe it was four out of the six tunnels. So there's two for roads, two for trains, and two for utilities going from England to France. And I think four out of the six were the Robbins Company. And these giant machines, they're longer than a football field, but the front is actually flat. It's not a big drill like you would see in a cartoon, right? When a cartoon character's going through the earth, they've got this drill. Rob Collie (00:09:04): Yeah, it's not the teenage mutant ninja turtles version. Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:09:07): It's flat. And they have these little discs. They're very similar to a disk that you throw in track and they stick out. So they're just cutting sideways into the rock in multiple places. And then a little bit falls off. It goes a little further, a little bit falls off. Really neat company to work for, a really neat product. Fun product. Rob Collie (00:09:28): Yeah, and then Elon Musk goes and forms the Boring Company. Did the Boring Company, do they make their own boring devices or do they just use the boring devices? Tim Rodman (00:09:40): Good question. I had moved on when I first heard about the Boring Company. So, yeah, I don't know. Rob Collie (00:09:46): The Hyperloop, right? It's going to replace, in theory, I'm crossing my fingers it will replace airline travel. Giant air evacuated tubes under the country, just zap from place to place like there's pneumatic tubes at the bank. Tim Rodman (00:09:58): I got one more story kind of in that same vein. It is interesting to see the customers of these machines. I didn't have a front row seat, I was in the IT department, mostly working on the ERP system, but I did hear stories. They would sell it to another country and that was it. They weren't allow to know what was happening after that. So when you get underground, things do get pretty interesting, especially internationally. This is an international company doing a lot in China and India, especially. It's just kind of interesting to make up your own stories about what they might have been drilling for. Rob Collie (00:10:31): Wow. Wow. That is insane. Have you been watching the show Better Call Saul? Tim Rodman (00:10:37): I have not. Rob Collie (00:10:37): It's like a prequel to Breaking Bad, and there's a giant basement that figures prominently in Breaking Bad, and in Better Call Saul, they show the construction of this basement. And it's very, very similar. It's really cloak and dagger. They're interviewing different engineering teams to come in and do it. But the engineering teams get blindfolded in a different city at an airport and driven across the country, and they have no idea where they are. The team that eventually ends up doing the work spends six months sequestered. They have no idea where they are in the world. Tim Rodman (00:11:05): That's interesting. Yeah, satellites have mapped out everything above ground, right? If you want to be discreet, you got to go underground. Be interesting to know what kind of things are going on out there. Rob Collie (00:11:14): But that's not what you're up to these days. So you are wielding Power Pivot at the Robbins Company. It was during that era that we got to know each other, but at some point something else pulled you away, right? What's been your path since then? Tim Rodman (00:11:28): So here's where I had to go back and look at the date. So it was July 2012 that talked to my neighbor, Andy. And then he came over probably within two or three weeks after that. At night after the kids were asleep, pulled out his Excel files and started showing me some of the stuff that he was doing. And then I got really interested. Tim Rodman (00:11:47): And so, somewhere between July and then I was at that first user group meeting in September of 2013. But then in April of 2013, kind of in between there, is when I first got my hands on installing a new ERP product called Acumatica. And I've always been more in the ERP space. I started off in accounting at Deloitte as a financial auditor. So I was always very close to the accounting side of things. And I got into ERP kind of by accident, ERP is like your back office systems. SAP and Oracle are the well known names for big companies. QuickBooks is the well known name for tiny companies. And then there's a whole mid-market for everyone who's generally between $10 million a year and a few hundred million a year. You're kind of in that mid-market space. There's a bunch of different ERP products, and Acumatica caught my attention because it was pure cloud, pure HTML, from scratch written and starting in 2008. I started getting into that at the same time that I was doing Power BI. So I had this interesting struggle of I've got two really cool, cutting edge products that I'm in on the beginning, or relatively early on in. Which one is going to win as I'm struggling? So I struggled with that probably for about a year or actually more, maybe more like two years, because it included, even after that September 2013, first user group meeting. Rob Collie (00:13:19): So you were struggling with which of these two exciting new technologies to really throw yourself into. Tim Rodman (00:13:25): That's right. Rob Collie (00:13:26): In the end, did you come to the conclusion that that was a false dichotomy, and it was really both? Tim Rodman (00:13:32): In the end, I think it was right at the time to decide that I needed to pick a focus. But yeah, I agree that that gets to what I'm doing now. They go together very well, but at the time, I feel like I did need to pick one bucking bronco to ride on. These kind of early software products, you want to devote your attention to it. And so, I'm glad that I did focus on Acumatica. Rob Collie (00:13:56): Okay. And so, when you say focused on Acumatica, did you leave your previous job and become an Acumatica implementation consultant? Is that first direction that you were going? Tim Rodman (00:14:06): That's right. I kind of worked with the product from April of 2013. That's when I first got my hands on it. And between then and September 2015, I was still at the Robbins Company learning Acumatica in the evening. And then September 2015, I went to work for Acumatica and was mainly involved with implementations for about five years till last November 2020. Rob Collie (00:14:32): Okay. So for five years you were an Acumatica employee, not like a partner, like the Microsoft model, where Microsoft has a million partner companies that help implement their stuff. It wasn't like that, you were an employee. Tim Rodman (00:14:44): Well, I did bounce around. In those five years, I was at Acumatica then I was at two different partners, which was actually fairly common, because things were moving around so quickly, but I was doing basically the same job the whole time. Rob Collie (00:14:56): Okay. All right. So there was basically the same sort of implementation, but depends upon timing and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes the checks coming from this firm versus another firm. That makes sense to me. You said that was for five years. So now what is Tim Rodman up to? Tim Rodman (00:15:10): So since last November, a little over a year now, I've just been independent. It was kind of middle of the COVID and with the way we were caring for the kids, we got two elementary school kids. Rob Collie (00:15:22): Oh boy, yeah. Tim Rodman (00:15:22): I was basically working part-time anyways. So the benefits were gone. My wife was working just enough to be full-time at her job and get benefits. So I'm already in like this hourly phase anyways. So I'm like, hey, why don't I just give this independent thing a shot? So for about a year now I've been independent just doing reporting in Acumatica. And because of that, Power BI has come back in a bigger way than when I just learning Acumatica. Rob Collie (00:15:54): [Taxes 00:15:54], back on the menu boys. Tim Rodman (00:15:55): That's right. Rob Collie (00:15:59): Fantastic. Welcome. Welcome back. Yeah. So that's neat, right? One of the things that comes up pretty frequently on this show is that life and career are more like the decathlon than like any single track and field event. And on the one hand, you'd think maybe that's too specialized. Acumatica reporting, seriously? But no, if I wanted someone to help me with Acumatica-based reporting and analytics, come on, it's the Rodman. That's who's going to be. Tim Rodman (00:16:31): I really like that decathlon point that you've made. I've heard it on previous episodes. I totally agree with it. That's been my experience this past year. I went down into a super niche. I know Acumatica from an implementation standpoint, I like reporting the best, and I spend most of my time on that. Is there really a market for that? And I found, yeah, there is because most the consulting companies, your model is to sell an ERP product and implement an ERP product. After the company goes live, then you're still going to support them. You're still going to write reports to them when they need, but largely your model is to then go move on to the next one, sell and implement. So all I do, all day, every day is reporting. I'm not distracted by implementations. And I found that to be really nice, not just from a knowledge standpoint, but from a muscle memory standpoint, my fingers have more knowledge in them just being familiar with where to click, to do certain things, because I'm doing it all the time. I'm not having to reteach the muscle memory every month or so when I actually get around to writing a report. Rob Collie (00:17:41): Yeah. So much domain knowledge, so much tribal knowledge built up. Even if you take on a new client, working with a new company for the first time, you already know two thirds of the story. Almost everything there is to know about Power BI. Like you're very, very comfortable there. You know everything about the plumbing of Acumatica, what its quirks are. All that kind of stuff. It's eccentricities. You know where the defined things. And then all that's left is whatever particular business problems that they're confronting that are somewhat unique to them. And that stuff's fun. That's just a fun thing to get into, in my experience. So you save a lot of time, not just time, but also really boring time. Learning all that other stuff is usually like, even if you're able to charge the same hourly rate for it, it just doesn't feel the same. It's not as much of a satisfying existence doing that boring stuff. And again, we're not talking about the tunnels here. We're talking about the actual not exciting version of... Tim Rodman (00:18:32): Well. Yeah. And I think that goes back to getting up to speed on a product. And to me, as I was getting up to speed on Acumatica, the hardest question was not to know what it could do. It was to know what it couldn't do, because if someone asks you, can it do this? And if you're going to say no, you've really got to be confident that you've covered all your bases there. Right? And that's where I am glad that I focused on a product and just got to know it well so that I could be confident. And then, as you say, the fun stuff, which I think is also the value add stuff, the important stuff, the softer side, the business side that now is what I get to focus on knowing that I have a solid set of Craftsman tools in my tool belt. Rob Collie (00:19:12): Yeah. Aren't most ERP systems supposed to come from Germany? Is Acumatica a Germany-based organization or does it come from somewhere else? Tim Rodman (00:19:20): It's not, it's close. It's Russia. Rob Collie (00:19:22): Really? Okay. Tim Rodman (00:19:23): Similar engineering mindset. Rob Collie (00:19:25): I see, I see. Tim Rodman (00:19:27): The core developer team, they got international offices now, but still the core team is in Moscow, Russia. Rob Collie (00:19:34): I actually have opinions on this. I think there's a huge difference between what little experience I have with this topic, which doesn't stop me from opining. There's a huge difference in engineering philosophy between the Russians and the Germans. All you have to do is go look at World War II. The Russians have a very, very keen sense of how things are actually going to be used, and they do not over engineer beyond that. The German philosophy is you over-engineer everything. There's no question that the best tank of the war, maybe the best three tanks of the war were all German designs, but that's with an asterisk, when they were running. There's parallels in the BI world. Rob Collie (00:20:06): Every day at an Air Force base in the United States, or any Air Force base that the United States operates, there's this ritual will where everybody who works at the Air Force base, no matter what their job is, they all get out and they form this big wide line and they walk the entire length of every runway picking up pebbles and all the little detritus that might get sucked into an intake and ruin a bajillion dollar airplane, right? Rob Collie (00:20:26): Whereas, the Russian philosophy is you could take a big handful of mud and just throw it into the intake and it just makes it stronger. And so much of the old BI world was that really sensitive, clean room environment mentality that just does not survive contact with the real world. I think a lot of German engineering, not all of it obviously, but the most representative outlier example of the culture is an over-engineered machine that doesn't stay on the road. Tim Rodman (00:20:54): I hadn't considered that. I could see that from an ERP's perspective. You look at SAP, that's the most notable German ERP product, and it is very much that. You do things a certain way and it's very precise. The Acumatica approach is much more of a minimum viable product approach. They launch stuff and then if it gets used, then they bother to make it run better and stuff like that. Rob Collie (00:21:21): Microsoft has made this transition from being the on-premises, release every three to five years software to very cloud-based, MVP-based approach. And that I'm amazed at how well they've pulled that transition. It is a very difficult cultural change to make within a company. Set aside the workflow and technical changes, just the cultural changes is just like, and that all happened after I left. So if I ever went back to Microsoft, that would be in a completely foreign land. I wouldn't recognize it today. I do wonder how many big, established companies are able to truly make that transition and make it work. Tim Rodman (00:21:54): I'm definitely watching Microsoft very closely. They're what they now call Dynamics 365. Before they swallowed up four ERP products around 2000. Rob Collie (00:22:05): Yep. Tim Rodman (00:22:05): Maybe like 2000 to 2005. Rob Collie (00:22:06): Yep. Tim Rodman (00:22:07): They were Axapta, Division, Great Plains, and Solomon. They branded Axapta's AX. Division, NAV. Great Plains, as GP and Solomon is SL. Well, Great Plains and Solomon have kind of fallen onto the maintenance mode. And now the two horses are AX and Division, which they confusing, if I'm current on this rebranded AX, as Finance and Operations, and NA Vision as Business Central. So Business Central is more in like the mid-market space that I'm in, but I'm definitely keeping my eye on that. It looks very interesting, especially with something I've seen them call the Dataverse. If they could really pull off a different style of database that allows you to go in and write power apps that are first class citizens in an ERP system, that all utilizes a common database on the backend, I think that's the general idea of their Dataverse. They used to call it Common Data Model. That's very interesting to me, but retooling an ERP system is quite a beast. Rob Collie (00:23:11): Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:23:11): It's a multi, multi year job. So we'll see if they can pull it off. But yeah, culturally if you're talking Microsoft's changes, it's very interesting to see what they do from an ERP perspective with that new culture. Rob Collie (00:23:24): Does Acumatica include a CRM component? Tim Rodman (00:23:27): Acumatica does. They're actually kind of rare in that respect that they built it into the core from the very beginning. So even if you aren't licensed for the quote-quote CRM area. Opportunities and leads, you still have the ability to track activities on anything, even like accounting journal entries, if you want to. So yeah, that philosophy was baked in from the very beginning, which I think is a pretty good competitive advantage. Rob Collie (00:23:53): So it is neat to see systems that aren't sort of the usual suspect, right? Like Acumatica seems relatively new, relative to something like SAP anyway. So it has a CRM in it. Rob Collie (00:24:03): Relative to something like SAP anyway. So it has a CRM in it. We started of course in the most random hodgepodge way possible here at P3, we just grab a system off the shelf, grab another system off the shelf. The joke is, well that's best of breed. Now it's the random collection of stuff that we happen to buy at certain points in time, right? Rob Collie (00:24:17): And you mentioned how long it takes a company like Microsoft to retool an ERP system. But holy cow, once you adopt one, you're stuck, even as the benefits of switching might pile up over time, so does your entrenchment, for instance, we're on Salesforce, CRM, it's so central to our business, that it leaks into other places too. It has integrations all over the place and you can't tear that thing out. Your entire nervous system would go with it if you try to get that parasite removed, like the alien. Tim Rodman (00:24:48): And I think that speaks to an important difference between ERP ecosystems and what I'd call data or BI, any kind of data ecosystem. A data person is much more apt to just grab the best tool for the job, or whereas an ERP person is just much more entrenched. The ecosystems tend to live separately. There's these vendors that we call ISV vendors, which are independent software vendors that they'll plug into the various ERP products. Tim Rodman (00:25:16): So they'll go like to the different conferences for all the different ERP products. But for most people who are really an expert on a particular ERP product, that's all they have time for. They don't cross paths with other ERP systems, just because of that, it's very... An entrenched nature. You get really into the weeds in terms of how you execute certain things. And you're just kind of stuck with what you got. Rob Collie (00:25:40): How humane is Acumatica when it comes to giving you access to the data? SAP is famously difficult to get data out of. One of the reasons I'm sure behind the scenes for all of this is that an ERP system. any ERP system that is very open with its data is easier to replace. Just run a bunch of exports, right? Or so goes to the paranoia anyway. Maybe that's not true. There was a time when Microsoft very closely guarded the formats of the office document, the specifications for those as if those were the reason why the office couldn't be copied, turned out that wasn't the case at all. The reason office can't be copied is all the behaviors of the application, not the nature of the file format structure. Rob Collie (00:26:25): So it turned out like completely opening that file format structure didn't damage or endanger the offices standing in the market at all. But for a while, there was a fear that it would. So I know entire software companies that are built strictly on the premise of trying to make and succeeding, actually of making SAP data a much more easy to consume, like in a data Mart format than in its native 55,000 tables of SQL or whatever of Oracle, whatever. So when you need to get data from Acumatica in order to build reports, how much secret handshake is involved if any? Tim Rodman (00:27:05): Before I respond to that, let me explain why I stayed in the ERP path. So I always look at things through a reporting angle, but I look at as two sides of a coin, you got heads and tails. Heads is the business per process side of things, tails is what I just call the reporting side of things. You can throw a BI at it or whatever. I just call it reporting, because that's the word that I find people most commonly use. But I find that to be two different sides of the same coin, where if you touch process, without keeping in mind reporting, you're asking for trouble because you're just going to be in the Lean Six Sigma, make things so efficient, but we don't even know why we're making it efficient type of a world. I don't want to be there. Then on the other side though, and this is why I stayed in the ERP world, I didn't want to just go down the reporting path and be just data analyst without understanding the business process side. Tim Rodman (00:28:02): Because I think as you probably experienced, you can never touch data without touching garbage and the data janitor side of things and missing data. So to be in a system where you now have the ability to influence the process and maybe customize the screens or change the way things are captured in order to fill in that missing data, you're in a much better position to deliver more comprehensive reporting. So that's my look at it. And from that angle, when I was looking for a new ERP product, that was one of the things that was very important to me. And one of the things that caught my attention with Acumatica from the very beginning was just how open the technology was. So like for example, I looked at NetSuite for a number of years, but every time I tried to figure out how NetSuite worked, I couldn't get my hands on it. It was like a black box. Tim Rodman (00:28:56): Whereas Acumatica, I read about it on a blog post somewhere. And a couple months later, I was talking to a partner and he's like, "Okay, how about I just let you into my university account and you can download it, install it yourself." So even though it is a cloud, most people deploy on cloud in the Acumatica Amazon data center. You can also take the same installation file and install it on your local machine. So at the end of the day, it's just a backend database and having the ability to, if I wanted to, move it out of the cloud and move it locally, which you can do, that was really important to me because I cared about accessing the data to your point. Rob Collie (00:29:38): Okay. All right. So let me keep pressing you on this point, however, I can use the cloud or I can stall it locally. Great, great, great. There's sort of like this sense of physical possession, but SAP was, and probably remains to this day very often deployed on premises and still is about as opaque as it comes when it's time to get access to the data. Does Acumatica force you to design reports that are ultra ultra ultra detailed and then export them to CSV format in order to get it into Power BI, which would be a very common thing. Does it offer any like integrations or direct connect type of APIs? What does it really look like? When you go into Power BI and say, okay, get data from Acumatica. What are you actually getting? Tim Rodman (00:30:23): So there is some pre-built stuff and they are in the Power BI I don't even remember what you call it, like templates or whatever that area is. Last I look, it was mostly CRM data that's pre-built there. But they did do so. Something back in 2015, and I actually did a guest blog post, another one on your blog in June of 2015. Got it right here on my notes to highlight what they did in 2015. They were, I believe the first ERP product to embrace OData. Which now Microsoft has done as well in their ERP products. But I really like the way that they did it because I've tinkered a little bit with business central and it wasn't quite this easy, but the way Acumatica does it is, you design a query using a screen, it's called a generic inquiry and you do it graphically. Tim Rodman (00:31:11): You pick your tables. You do your joins. You're essentially doing a sequel query, but you're doing it graphic. And then you check this one little box that says, enable for OData. So you could pull data from any table you want, join it together however you want, group it, filter it and then enable the thing for OData so you can connect it from Power BI, which is the reason why that feature there is huge to me. And that's why Power BI is coming up more and more in conversations with clients. Rob Collie (00:31:43): Okay, cool. So do you find that the throughput of OData is sufficient? Is it a relatively slow query or is it returned kind of snappy or we're not typically dealing with billions of rows, I wouldn't think, but that's one of the things that I'm always a little concerned about with these XML driven type of APIs. I've asked the question now, five times, I feel like I should ask it [inaudible 00:32:05] I don't really need to, you know what I'm asking. Tim Rodman (00:32:10): No, you got it. It's definitely slow. Now, when you connect to Acumatica from Excel, at least I haven't tried it in Power BI, but from Excel, at least it knows to use the JSON rather than the XML, which is a little friendlier, but it's still slow. I'm not to the point yet where I'm doing anything at massive scale. My thought is you would throw a Power BI premium license at it so you could do the incremental refresh because Acumatica does retain all the last modified information on all the records. So you'd be able to do that. But where I'm at right now with clients is, and I use your line all the time. And I most of the time credit you for it. Maybe not all the time. Most of the time I credit you for it. And the line is that, look, we're here to create numbers that never existed before in your organization. So I'm really not concerned about speed right now, I'm not even concerned about refresh right now. Tim Rodman (00:33:02): I remember when we talked about back at the user group in 2013, when we talked, I remember you pointing out to me that most of your data sets were just CSV files, because you're just trying to show people calculations that they never even knew were possible. And once you blow their mind with that and you open those doors to all these sorts of different ways of looking at data than they even realized ever existed, then you can deal with the larger datasets, all the technical stuff that everyone wants to talk about. But to me, that's not the point. I just listen to your at Ken Puls podcast episode and he made the point that he still primarily lives in Excel with Power Pivot. And I do the same thing primarily for the reason that I'm communicating now in an application that you understand. And that's my whole goal. I'm just trying to get you in the door here. We're not trying to get too fancy yet. Just get you in the door. Rob Collie (00:33:54): As a side note, I definitely need to connect you with the Excel team. They're hungry to talk to people like you who are still very much living in the modern Excel environment and not so much in the Power BI environment for good reason, one of them is so much more graphically sexy and has its own dedicated marketing and everything. Whereas Excel is this does anything tool. They can't just go out and promote Excel as the power tools that are within it. They have to do everything. They've got to cater to every kind of user as well. Rob Collie (00:34:26): Power BI gets a much, much, much less diluted version of its own marketing than the Power BI equivalent hiding in Excel. It's a lot easier for Microsoft than for the Excel team and everybody to run into Power BI customers than it is to run into really hardcore Power Pivot customers. And I really think they need to meet you. The team does occasional meet the real world, meet the customer over a web meeting. I did one of those with them recently, and my main message to them was you need to talk to other people. I can tell you my story, but this is still going on out there and I'm not actively practicing it anymore. So if you're interested in talking to a whole bunch of Excel people about Power Pivot, let's hook that up. Tim Rodman (00:35:03): Sure. Yeah. I will say that even though I introduce an Excel, I still view Excel more as a prototyping tool. I like to describe it as more like working with clay than working with concrete. I still do a lot out with the Acumatica reporting tools, but it's more like concrete. You make a report and someone's like, "Oh, I want to see this by item instead of by a customer." Then you got to get out the jackhammer, tear it down and report the concrete to make the report. Excel just much more malleable, right? So it's more my prototyping tool. The end results still might wind up with one of the Acumatica reporting tools or it might even wind up in Power BI. So another thing I like about Acumatica and I'd love to get an answer from someone, maybe you, anyone on this, you can embed Power BI back inside of Acumatica. Tim Rodman (00:35:56): They've got a couple screens that they made where all you need is a Power BI Pro license on the Power BI side. And then you do it inside Acumatica. You sign up for a secret key on the Power BI side. You plug that in to Acumatica. And now I can drop reports on the Acumatica menu that are Power BI reports from powerbi.com. And I can assign security to those reports using the regular Acumatica security. So I have done that a few times, but Excel still my prototype, but then it might wind up permanently living in powerbi.com. Tim Rodman (00:36:33): So my question is from a licensing perspective. So from a technical perspective, I know all I need is a Power BI Pro license. I plug that in, it works. And from the Power BI side, as far as I can tell, it looks at it like there's one user called Acumatica that's doing all the requests for reports. From an Acumatica side, I could have 10 people that are using that report. From a technical side, I know it works. From a legal side, I don't know if I'm supposed to buy Power BI licenses for all 10 people. And then how am I even supposed to monitor how I know how many people are really using it at that point? I'm not sure. Rob Collie (00:37:14): I know that we've done quite a bit with Power BI embedded at this point. So someone on our team probably hasn't answered, there's always a little gray area in all Microsoft licensing. Sometimes it experiences there's been a little bit of don't ask, don't tell kind of gray area. You're saying that you're still managing to enforce row level security? Tim Rodman (00:37:33): No. Okay. I give up row level security, which I'm okay with. Because again, after creating numbers that never existed before. So I give that up and I just get one user and I let everyone view that report who has access to it. Rob Collie (00:37:46): So the gray area here might just be that okay. If you're willing to give up row level security and you're willing to give up usage reporting, right? Because only have one user, you only have one level of security there's no granularity there and there's also no granularity of user. I don't know, but I am not very close to the licensing stuff. I'd hate for anyone to be listening to this going, "Well, Rob Collie said it was okay." Like, Nope, no I did not. Tim Rodman (00:38:10): And that's not what I'm looking for. This is a, "Hey, is anyone out there listening know the answer?" Because what I wonder is, is it more like a SQL thing where I can download the SQL developer edition, which has all the SQL functionality and nothing's going to stop me from using that in a production environment. Legally though, I shouldn't do that. Is this that same situation? If it is, it just seems strange that in 2022, I'm not going to get busted for more multiple people accessing Power BI. It just seems weird to me. So that's why I don't know if I'm missing something. Rob Collie (00:38:41): It's just a matter of where they pay attention. Here's another way to say it is that, I bet that none of your clients make Microsoft's radar in terms of like there's even a salesperson assigned to them. Tim Rodman (00:38:52): And that's kind of my explanation to clients at this time. It's like, "Look use at your own risk, but yeah. Is anyone going to care at this point? I don't know." Rob Collie (00:39:01): So who owns the Pro licenses who's paying for them? Is it your clients or is it you? Tim Rodman (00:39:06): The client would still pay. So yeah, that's where it's not quite embedded. My understanding of embedded is you're a software vendor. You're using Power BI on the backend and you bake it into your application. That's not the case here. We've got a client who buys their own license. They plug the keys into their own Acumatica environment, which was an off the shelf product, not something they created themselves. So yeah, it's kind of an interesting situation. Rob Collie (00:39:28): We recently talked with Mary Fealty from Ireland and she runs a Power BI consulting practice. It's focused on like an industry that she knows very well. And she went to the trouble of having Power BI embedded implemented on her website. So her clients log into her website for their analytics, not to powerbi.com and never see any of the really scary, intimidating Power BI website Chrome, all the stuff, all the menus and all the bells and whistles that distract from the actual report. And I'm assuming you probably aren't seeing all those distractions in this lowercase E embedded story in Acumatica, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to embed and suddenly be looking like an eye frame to the entire Power BI workspace. Maybe that is what it Is. Tim Rodman (00:40:20): No you're right. And that's what I like about it. It's very clean and really no one knows it's Power BI, but it's still interactive. You can still click on my slicers, drill down, stuff like that. Rob Collie (00:40:29): So depending upon various sensitivities and things like that, I mean, one option for you would be to long term, big picture, blue sky thinking here would be to implement your own instance of Power BI embedded, pay the monthly premium All You Can Eat model and then none of your clients would even have that question anymore and they wouldn't have to buy any licenses either, you would be their only provider of all this. You'd have a stickier service as well, but at the same time they might be really nervous about now there's one more place where their data is exposed. Their BI is living in your... And it could still be embedded back by the way, just an idea. Tim Rodman (00:41:09): It's a good point. There's actually a company in the Acumatica space. I'll give them a shout out, called DataSelf. And they do that. They started with Tableau actually. And now because everyone's asked them for Power BI as well, they're doing Power BI, but they basically our software company they're taking care of the licensing on the back end and delivering it up on the front end. Rob Collie (00:41:29): Yes, DataSelf. Come to the dark side. We have cookies. Tim Rodman (00:41:34): I love by the way, your YouTube video that you did, which I didn't realize was you until I heard it on the podcast, the one with Hitler. Oh, that one was awesome. The Alteryx licenses comment specifically was just awesome. I was falling off my chair when I heard the Alteryx licences. Rob Collie (00:41:51): There's some serious insight baseball in that. We had like a year before, maybe two years before been at one of the large four accounting firms doing some work or at least some training, it was like a bake off. We were representing Power BI and Tableau had parked multiple of their own full-time employees in the offices at this firm. All they were was just do whatever you want. The reporting minions, build whatever you want. Because the Tableau licenses are so expensive, it made sense to just eat three employees on this account and Microsoft wasn't sending anybody. We got brought in by the accounting firm to represent the side, right? Rob Collie (00:42:29): That just shows you the difference in business model between the two companies. When you have an extra zero on your price tag, you provide a lot more support, a lot more direct support. We were in there and it wasn't just Tableau, Alteryx was there and they had people on the ground. Wow, this is heavy. This is so heavy. Tim Rodman (00:42:46): Crazy. Rob Collie (00:42:47): Yeah. The one thing in there that I wish I hadn't done was explicitly name Power BI. That video comes off a little bit more like super, super, super partisan rather than just like telling the true joke about what's going on with Tableau, right? But oh, well, that video is modest success has still been like the most viewed thing I've ever put on YouTube. Tim Rodman (00:43:11): It was well done. Just the lines were very well thought through, you could tell. Rob Collie (00:43:16): There was a spreadsheet of the original, like the original German. And what I translated to was like when he said something repeatedly, that was very clearly the same word, I had it be the same thing in the English pseudo translation. You got to take an artisanal approach to Hitler Lampoon videos. But yeah, I didn't link that to any of our official accounts or anything, that was a burner. I'm glad you enjoyed that. Tim Rodman (00:43:41): Well, I think it also highlights what I think you're very good at, which is communicating to I'll call it the masses, which is a lower price tag, so maybe you don't like to describe it that way, but even your book, your very popular book, that's what got me hooked. I mean, Andy is the one who opened the door, but then the book is what really got me in to Power BI and you made it clear very early on in that book about the whole calculate numbers that haven't existed. You might not have used that language, but it was very clear to me that Power BI was good at that. And when I first met you at that first user group, I'll go back to September, 2013 again, after we met at, I think it was a Microsoft office there in Independence, a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio, we then go across the street with just a few of us. Whoever wanted to, I think it was Mavis Winkle. Rob Collie (00:44:34): Yeah, that's right. Tim Rodman (00:44:37): I brought my laptop over there. I was the only one who brought my laptop and we're just sitting there at the bar. I pull out the laptop and you're asking me questions about what I was trying to do. And I was trying to write this Dax that would give me something that I think is a very common situation in ERP systems because ERP systems have a lot of one to many relationships and users though don't really understand that. When they're asking for something, they'll describe, "I want you to give me a list of purchase orders maybe and on those purchase orders, I want you to give me the date that it's supposed to get delivered." That's the way they're thinking. Purchase order, date. But in actuality, I just saw stat on this the other day. I think it's something like 52% of purchase order lines, wind up changing their delivery dates, especially nowadays with all the supply chain issues, right? Tim Rodman (00:45:33): So that what ends up happening, even if you were lucky enough to place that order of 50 products with your supplier. And even if they put the same data on all 50 products, the chance of that not changing is very slim. So reality, you've got more multiple dates. So I was just trying to do something very simple. They just wanted to see it all in one cell in Excel and they just wanted, all right, if it's multiple dates, sure. Yeah. I don't believe it. But if that's what you say, I just want a comma delimited list. And that's when you, Rob Collie mentioned something that was coming called concatenate X. And I was like, "Oh, this is very interesting." And it didn't exist yet, but you already knew the problem. And I was very fascinated by that. Rob Collie (00:46:17): So the way I remember it, we're going to take your memory as superior on this topic. But let me just tell you the way that I remember it, the way I remember it is that you and I were sitting there, in the course of that conversation, we came with the need for concatenate X. Tim Rodman (00:46:31): Oh, that makes it even better than I remembered it. Rob Collie (00:46:35): And then I went back to Microsoft and said, "Hey, can we have concatenate X?" And we eventually got it. The world would've discovered this a million times over as time went on, right? But I think that was the first time that I encountered a need for that concatenate function that didn't exist. There was no way to do it either without the concatenate X function. Tim Rodman (00:46:55): Well, there was, but it was ugly. There was. I had something, but it was super ugly. I didn't like it. Rob Collie (00:47:00): You don't want to feel dirty. Tim Rodman (00:47:04): Yeah. You don't want to take forever to run and yeah, yeah. I know though, you came up with the name on the spot. So either you just named that on the spot, that's why I assume that you had already had this in mind. Rob Collie (00:47:17): And again, I think it would've been a very, very, very obvious function name to Microsoft as well. Once we recognized that we'd gotten down to behind the scenes was this virtual table of strings. And we wanted to concatenate them all together. That is an X function. That's an iterative X function. Like the sum X function will go over that same table that you've generated in your measure. Rob Collie (00:47:39): You're like three quarters of the way through the measure and you've generated this table and then some X will iterate over those and sum them up, right? We needed a text aggregation function of like sum X or average X or whatever, but I didn't have anything to do with writing the spec for how the concatenate function is built. They didn't even tell me they were doing it. I told them we needed it on this email exchange that very night or the next day, like how cool would be to have concatenate X. We just ran into a need for it. And... Rob Collie (00:48:03): Like, how cool would it be to have ConcatenateX? We just ran into a need for it. And no one told me that they were doing it and then it just showed up. Tim Rodman (00:48:06): Interesting. Well, that makes it even cooler. I love the function. And I also like how at the end, they give you the ability to say, I forget exactly how the arguments work, but something like, "All right, if I wind up with more than five values, I can display whatever I want". So that is just beautiful to me. Depending on how much space I have, I can say, "All right, show three dates, maybe". Rob Collie (00:48:25): Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:48:26): If it's more than three, then I can just display a message that says, "More than three dates". Rob Collie (00:48:30): Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:48:30): It works great. Especially on ERP data. Rob Collie (00:48:32): Yeah. It was just a beautiful, beautiful thing. And I was so happy when it showed up. Now of course it might have been Tim that someone else had already been pressing for ConcatenateX. And it's just that I didn't have visibility into that. So my email to Microsoft that didn't pick up a lot of traction might have been because they were already working on it. Who knows, right? Until I know otherwise I will say that there is a reasonably good chance that you and I were the first place that the world discovered that it needed ConcatenateX. We were the reason that got implemented when it did, as opposed to later. Tim Rodman (00:49:04): Well and there's one thing for sure. I was very happy that I brought my laptop to the bar. Rob Collie (00:49:09): I was too because I was so geeked out about the idea of ConcatenateX. There's a blog post on my blog that used to get a lot of traction where I invented ContainsX, iterate through a table to see if it contains a string. And I think now today with functions like accept and intersect, in the DAX language, which didn't exist back then, I think ContainsX would be a much easier thing to do today than it used to be. The ContainsX post, the way I did it, the way I had to do it back then was really, really difficult. Very hairy, not fun. And it's much easier I think to use these new functions. But I don't know, I haven't tested that particular scenario. Those were fun blog posts to write though. And they used to get a lot of traffic. I don't think they do anymore. Because I think DAX has moved on and gotten better but ConcatenateX was a must have. There was just that there weren't really any of acceptable workarounds for that problem. Tim Rodman (00:50:03): Well, I will say though that I am not a DAX master by any means. Rob Collie (00:50:08): Neither am I anymore. Tim Rodman (00:50:10): I feel like though I am still able to deliver value to clients. All going back to that numbers that never existed before. So take ConcatenateX as example, one simple function that you can use that does something that's very difficult to do otherwise. And it's just opening the door to these possibilities that you never even thought about before. I just did the other day for a client. This is the Sarah problem example, the bubble up type of situation. Rob Collie (00:50:37): Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:50:37): They just wanted to flag some stuff. So I went back to those blog posts that you've written and without fully understanding all the DAX, as long as it doesn't take forever to run and I can validate the numbers. I'm good with it. And the DAX doesn't look totally crazy. Like it's not understandable. I'm able to do really cool things with essentially Excel skills. And I was skeptical about this at first. I remember you turned to me one time during the user group and you're like, "Oh, Tim's got a question, Tim, the skeptic". You called me the skeptic. It's just my nature, I am skeptical about things. But it's really proven to be the case that a guy with primarily Excel knowledge is playing with DAX and I kind of have the feel for what I'm getting out of my league and I back off but it's still okay. I'm still able to deliver cool stuff. It's great. I love it. Rob Collie (00:51:26): When I used to teach classes, one of the things I would try to drive home for people is that your first job is to go out and really suck at this stuff, really suck at DAX, really be bad at it. Because when you're bad at DAX, you're already a superhero. You've just got super powers. You just haven't learned how to control them yet. And you don't have to be, you don't have to be a master. And that's something we've talked about a lot recently, I think on episodes that we've recorded but I don't think have released yet. How put off I would be today if I tried to join the DAX army today from scratch? So much of the DAX are on internet sites these days like blogs, et cetera, is so hyper optimized, sophisticated and it works backward from the query. Rob Collie (00:52:07): It works backward from creating the right table. And then only at the last minute does it do the math over this virtual table that's been created. Whereas the original dirty alleyway street fight version of DAX that I was practicing was more about the verb. It was more about the thing we had to go do. And ignoring these virtual tables as much as possible until you got deeper and deeper and you had to learn more and more about virtual tables. And there's a reasonably good chance that I would look at today's DAX articles and such and go, "Oh no, this isn't for me". But the real test of it is the value you can deliver. And I'm not a DAX's master either. Everyone at the company is better at DAX than I am. I will on occasion have to go asking for DAX help from our own team and they always solve my problem. And I go, "Wow, that's great". Tim Rodman (00:52:57): Well, I think that's the power of the community speaking right there, right? I mean, that's going back to the Excel example to why Excel is so popular. It's not because the functions are named the best and do the brutally most efficient calculations. Why is Excel popular? Because I can go on Google and Google my business problem language of what I'm looking to do. And I can land on a blog post that shows me how to do it. It's the same with DAX now, right? I can just kind of Google what I'm trying to do and I can pretty quickly, usually land on something very often. One of your old blog posts that kind of walks me through, not just how to do it but the philosophy on why you took that approach. And that's good enough. I understand what's going on. I don't know the super technical details of it but it solves the problem and I move on. Rob Collie (00:53:46): Yeah, it's Decathlon again, right? You need to be credible in every event, 90th percentile at every event. And that at Decathlon is 99th percentile all overall. That's good enough. So yeah, there are a few things that I've been writing down as we go here. So have you ever met Kellan? Tim Rodman (00:54:02): I don't think so. There was one person I was on a phone call with, I can't remember who it was. I don't think so though. Not Kellan. Rob Collie (00:54:08): Oh the two of you would get along famously. He's the business process architect, Rain man genius behind the scenes here at P3. And not even really behind the scenes, I mean he runs the thing. So anyway, the things you were saying about you can't influence process without paying attention to reporting. You don't want to just be stuck on the reporting side without the ability to influence process. That sounds like good Kellan Danielson and Yoda wisdom that you were laying down there. Like I started getting my, this is Kellan Twitch. So if I think about it from like a CRM perspective, you want to influence the quality of the data that's being captured and entered by human beings. Rob Collie (00:54:51): So just really simple example, if you can go upstream and you can introduce better data validation on a particular form field that ensures that it doesn't have any letters in it or something, right? That can have an enormous impact. That's the most simple example of that. Is that how you look at it? When it comes to reporting, the business process, not just the process but also the software and the UI that implements that process. It's upstream from the reporting. And if you can filter the junk proactively, then your reporting is not breathing so much carbon dioxide. Tim Rodman (00:55:29): Absolutely. The way I like to describe it. And I think this comes from my accounting background and the way I describe ERP systems to people is that accounting is the graveyard of every ERP transaction. Rob Collie (00:55:42): Oh, I love that. Tim Rodman (00:55:42): Unfortunately, a lot of accountants- Rob Collie (00:55:44): Can you say that one more time? I just want to hear that, I want that twice on this show. Do it again. Tim Rodman (00:55:52): To me accounting, specifically, the Journal-Ledger is the graveyard of every ERP transaction. An ERP system is designed around the Journal-Ledger. A CRM system is designed around the customer but an ERP system is designed around the Journal-Ledger. So that everything flows downhill into the accounting department. Now it's the graveyard but there's still a lot of what I'll call Zombie transactions that go on because the accountants are stuck in their cubicles. They don't want to go outside the cubicles to fix the sludge that's flowing downhill. So they just correct things in the Journal- Ledger with all these zombie transactions. And it's a nightmare situation but I like being in the position to say, "Hey, how about we go upstream? How would we fix it there? Then your month end process close is going to be a lot easier." So one thing I like designing in Acumatica, there's a dashboard utility that you can do in Acumatica. Tim Rodman (00:56:51): Nothing like Power BI but it's all right. And I like designing what I call a stuff that should never happen dashboard. And it's got just a bunch of widgets on it. They're very simple KPI widgets that just have a number. And if the number's greater than zero then it's red. Rob Collie (00:57:08): Yeah. Tim Rodman (00:57:09): If the number's zero then it's green. So all those situations that I find rather than even trying to fix them yet, I just put them on the dashboard and then you can at least look at the dashboard. If I see any red widgets on there, I click in and I find the transactions that I need to fix. That right there helps but it's even better, like you said, if you can go upstream and fix it, wherever it got entered. Rob Collie (00:57:31): I love the philosophy behind that kind of report. A report that if I everything's right, it's empty. Exception reports like that are glorious. And the way you construct them is in a way validating that things are operating the way they're supposed to. And I love that kind of stuff. I think that is more and more of the world's reporting should be designed that way. Not everything fits that mold but sometimes all you're doing is looking at a report full of numbers, trying to find a place where two numbers are different when they shouldn't be. Well, then just make the report that goes and does that for you goes. And computers are really good at this sort of thing, comparing two numbers over hundreds of rows or thousands or millions, whatever. And just let me know when there's an exception. Tim Rodman (00:58:11): I think that's an interesting point you just made. I have a philosophy on that, that I think that why people accept that has a lot to do with paper, historically. So if you think about someone's DAX, historically. One, it was a lot larger than our DAX now. And why? It was so I could have stacks of reports sitting on the DAX. Yeah. And why did I have stacks of reports? Because that was the only way to get the data out. And what did I do with it? I just sifted through the pages. Sometimes I manually added stuff up or I was looking for just those few numbers. And that's just what I was used to doing in a paper world. So it kind of just carried over to the digital world. And we're not quite there yet where people are saying, "Why don't we just skip that step and just highlight the stuff that we need to care about, right?" Rob Collie (00:58:51): Oh, I completely agree with you. And I think you can take that as even a more general principle, which is that so many of the things in the business world today that we take for granted are merely the artifacts of how hard it would've been in the past to do it differently. For example, one of the reasons why certain organizations run on these weird custom calendars that are four week, five week, is because, gosh, like there's no way for us to compare months against each other because they have different composition of weekdays and weekends. In a lot of businesses that makes a big difference. Some businesses are weak on weekends or slow on weekends and others are exactly the opposite. And so the ratio of weekday and weekend days in a month is going to heavily skew your numbers. Rob Collie (00:59:35): So the solution was to just completely throw out the calendar and change the entire calendar to compensate for this. Whereas if we'd had DAX from the beginning, we might have said, "Hey look, no, we can calculate a good denominator here". We can do that sort of the weighted average of composition of each month and sort of level set for fairness to make it an apples and apples comparison across months, across periods. And now we wouldn't have to carry around all of this tremendous weight. Another version of this is I ask, why is revenue dollars typically the first column in almost every report? It's not the most insightful metric for managing your business. It's just the easiest number to calculate. Tim Rodman (01:00:13): I totally agree with that. Well, same with your dates thing. I think in a lot of ERP systems, you can only run it by financial period. Rob Collie (01:00:20): Yeah. Tim Rodman (01:00:20): So people had to make the financial period more granular to your point because they couldn't go all the way down to the date level or would overwhelm the calculation engine. Yeah, absolutely. Rob Collie (01:00:28): So there's an opportunity. And this also rears its head in, I'm going to get a little bit out over my skis here, just a little bit but not too much, which is a lot of reporting has historically been tied to the monthly close. Because just the amount of labor that goes into everything, it's not something you can repeat more than once a month. Well, we can only close the books once a month because it's so labor intensive and that's the only time that the numbers are going to be right. And so we only find out our number at the end of the month and it's like surprise. "We thought we were doing well this month but nope we didn't. And it's too late to change anything. So just everybody just cross your fingers and grit your teeth and next month will be better, right?" Rob Collie (01:01:03): This non actionable version of BI that got this reputation for being rear view mirror only. And so often what one of the themes is you just go in to any organization and find the reports that are only generated once a month and start generating them daily. And suddenly they're now actionable. It's the same number. It's just that you get a preview of what the end of the month is going to look like five days in and the opportunity to make a change. It's all about the action. Tim Rodman (01:01:27): It's the same premise behind the stuff that should never happen dashboard. Who that resonates the most with is the accountant because it takes them a lot longer to close the month when they find that bad stuff that they need to clean up. The problem isn't just that they need to clean it up all at once at the end of the month. The other problem is no one remembers why it happened because it happened two weeks ago. Rob Collie (01:01:47): Yeah. Tim Rodman (01:01:48): If I can know when it happened, it's fresh in everyone's mind and it's a lot faster to clean it up. Yeah? Rob Collie (01:01:52): Yeah. So good. Right. Two weeks in business is a long time. A lot of memory gets lost in that. I can completely see that. You're talking about these numbers that don't exist, right? It's been so long since I've said that. And it's not because that saying has lost its power. I've just forgotten it. I hadn't heard that in a long time. We're creating the numbers that didn't exist before, the numbers you either really badly wished you could have or wouldn't have even dared to imagine that were possible, is very often even that second category. I think the closest thing that I say to that these days is faucets first. What everyone needs is water. So let's go build a faucet. And if we need to run a hose to the faucet rather than some sophisticated stainless steel pipe or a copper pipe, we don't have to even go into pecks for this. We just need a hose and everyone's going to get a drink and everyone's going to hydrate. Rob Collie (01:02:39): And we're going to be better off. Do that first because you don't even really know how much water you need out of the faucet or where the faucet should be located. And BI was so forever a plumbing first endeavor which was just an epic fail. Just never worked. Never once. I was still challenged for the world to show me the BI project that was plumbing first and was actually successful. And then whenever someone submits a candidate for this, we just go look at it and say, "Oh look, look the export to Excel button is just being worn out". Tim Rodman (01:03:12): The most popular reporting button. I use that line a lot as well. I love that line. I actually experienced this recently with the client. They wanted to report on their phone call data. So for their industry, as a lot of checking in with their customers, otherwise they don't necessarily get the orders. They go somewhere else and they wanted to mash-up the phone it with the billing data. And at first we started to attack it the old way. It's like, "Ah, well there's an API available that we could use to suck in the data on a nightly basis, blah-blah". But eventually I'm like, "Ah, how do we just tack it from the other angle? Let's just get one data dump and let's build the report". Tim Rodman (01:03:49): We did it in Excel with Power BI. And once we had what the end result looked like and they were thrilled with it and now they're using it. Now you're motivated to go kind of back into the plumbing, right? Rob Collie (01:04:02): Totally. Tim Rodman (01:04:02): And that's what we did. Now it lives in powerbi.com but it didn't start there. It started in Excel and that's the hardest part, getting momentum, getting off the ground, finding that end result and then working backwards. That's just technical stuff. right? Rob Collie (01:04:15): I think people often will get confused when I'm talking like this and go, "Wait, do you have something against good high quality plumbing? Do you have something against data marks and data warehouses?" I am like, "No, I do not. If that exists, I'm going to start there". Tim Rodman (01:04:30): Agreed. Rob Collie (01:04:30): But if it doesn't exist, I am not going to get hung up on it. Because I'm positive. We can be delivering amazing business changing results within a matter of a week or two at the most. Even if we just don't worry about the plumbing for now, we can get there. And one of my earliest clients when it was still just me, the whole project started with exports from Cognos that were dumped into a desktop SQL because we didn't have Power Query yet. There was no other way to ingest text files. Dumped into desktop SQL and all this dashboard did, this scorecard was reverse their stock price decline. Rob Collie (01:05:07): And no one was complaining as the stock price went from trending down to trending up. No one was complaining about the fact that every week or whatever someone had to go and re-run an export and dump it back into SQL, right? This went on for like 18 months. Changing the fortunes of everybody, like the shareholders were happy. And then they finally said, "Okay, all right, we're burning a little bit too much labor here. Let's go and bite the bullet and that was a longer project." That was the apex predator of a plumbing project, right? Because the reason the export happened from Cognos is because the relationships with all the operational systems that fed ultimately up. There was all this security and nuance about schema and everything that had only been captured in the Cognos universe. Rob Collie (01:05:50): Actually business object is the one with universe but whatever, anyway, a lowercase universe for anyone who's out there. Wining in pain right now. Either way, they're both gone, we're replacing all of them. So they had to go back to raw from the metal ETL. I mean that was a big project to get the manual refresh out of the loop. But it was one of those things where you could sort of confidently execute the project. You knew exactly what the ROI was. Tim Rodman (01:06:14): And that's I think the key right there. You know justification for the spend. Yes, absolutely. Rob Collie (01:06:19): So the people who get upset at me when I say, "No, don't build the data warehouse first". If I'm on my game that day, I said, "No, data warehousing follows what we do". Where we usually there's an uptick in ETL, eventually relative to even before, we're not the end of it. We're not the asteroid that eliminates ETL. ETL multiplies after we've been working somewhere for a while because there's ROI in it. It's provable, it's concrete. Whereas these people have been burned so many times by the plumbing first philosophy that they don't want to a green light any more plumbing projects. Now it's more like as tactical plumbing projects, those add up to be more time for the data warehousing pros and the ETL pros and all of that than they would've been spending otherwise on their one glistening shining monolith to rule the all that never finishes. Tim Rodman (01:07:06): This is not an environmentally friendly analogy here but maybe we've got a forest and farms analogy where you're going through and all these trees are these very challenging business problems, right? We're chopping down trees here and clearing more space for farmland. We're not anti farming. We're making room for more farmland, right? To your point, there's going to be more data warehouse work on the backend for you. So we're working together here. Rob Collie (01:07:29): Yeah. It's just that we don't cut the tree down immediately. We walk around the forest a little bit. We blea some paths and then maybe we'll go back and clear the trees, whatever. Tim Rodman (01:07:38): Oh yeah, there you go. Maybe we're more surveying. Yeah. We're finding a way through the forest and then you come back and build the road. Yeah. Maybe that's better. Rob Collie (01:07:45): You're right. There's no PR or value in us in this metaphor. Right? Either way we're going to clear cut. Tim Rodman (01:07:53): Yeah. It's not a good modern analogy. Rob Collie (01:07:55): All right. Well, one day as a lumberjack would probably be one day too many for me, I would not farewell. So, okay. We talked about the value in being able to go upstream from the reporting. But what about the flip side? What about going downstream from the reporting? So you think about it being a loop. So data comes out of these business processes goes into the reporting. You have great example, your exceptions, right? So your exception calls out. There's something wrong here. All right. This is something that I think another way that things are going to be growing, coming up is that exception report. Now I'm going to pick on it a little bit without knowing anything about it. So if I'm wrong about this, I'm about to say then perfect. I'm exonerated. Because I actually don't know any of the details. Rob Collie (01:08:38): This is a safe place. Think about that exception report. It tells you there's a problem. But then it sits there and says, "Good luck. Go solve that problem, right?" The report gets to take a total pass. It gets amnesty from being involved in helping you solve it. When reporting is doing its job, it basically helping you come to the conclusion that there's actions you need to take. Information and a vacuum is worth nothing. It's only when it translates into improvement and actual improved action that it makes a difference. Okay. Why does the dashboard at the piece of software? Why does the report get to bow out of the action taking process? It knows all the context, right? It knows the things that are mismatched. It knows the systems. In some sense, it knows the systems or at least it combined with the report author and the Power BI people. Rob Collie (01:09:24): We know the systems that it came from. Why not have a button right there that says, "Help me go fix it"? What typically happens is you have to leave the context of the report. Completely shift gears, go sometimes even log in to a different system, one of the operational systems. And then look back at the report. What was the ID on that again? Oh, okay. I got to go search for ID. 63157. Increasingly I'm trying to, the times that I actually do build business focused reports, which usually happens in our advertising, analyzing our advertising spend and effectiveness here. I will try to include contextual links, the calculated column of a concatenation of something. So I can go to the salesforce record of this lead and to further explore, it's like a drill down like a drill through a drill across type of thing. Rob Collie (01:10:13): And the way that Microsoft, this is going back to your point about keeping an eye on dynamics in that side view mirror. One of the things that are up to and this is something we talked about relatively at length on the podcast with Lori Rodriguez, if anyone's listened to this and is interested in hearing more about this. Go listen to the Lori Rodriguez's podcast, which I think is the longest one of all time. Rob Collie (01:10:35): But I think that closing that action loop is going to be one of the ways in which BI tools are going to be evaluated going forward. BI has never until very recently been able to remotely deliver on its initial promise. The promises that the BI industry were telling 30 years ago were never fulfilled. There was never a happy zone where you actually got it under control and you actually did a good job of BI. But what we found is that our clients start to get the BI monster under control. They start to realize that, "Oh yeah, this is just part of a bigger story". And so I think that BI is not going to get the excuse. It's not going to get the free pass to get out of jail free car when it comes to taking action. And so this is where Microsoft's strategy, when they started calling this stuff Business Apps, it all started to dawn on me about a year and a half ago. Rob Collie (01:11:21): Remember the scene in independence day, where they start to figure out what's happening. They see the countdown, they go, "Oh, checkmate, right?" They know that the of the attack is coming before it actually happens. That's kind of the feeling I got when I started putting it all together. I'm like, "Oh, no look out everybody, here it comes. It's coming in slow motion. And there's nothing you can do about it". Which is the whole Power apps thing. The flows thing, all of these Power Virtual Agents, all of this stuff is the condensed version of it. If you start to view BI as a form of middleware because it's having to touch different systems, maybe there's some exceptions in your world with Acumatica but most of the time, what we find is that the ERP have- Rob Collie (01:12:03): Your world with Aragami. But most of the time, what we find is that the ERP has, let's say, some large fraction of the data that's relevant to some report. But there's other systems, there's other line of business systems that are outside the ERP that are just as relevant, and in order to get an end to end view of how things are performing, and Power BI is so good at this, right? The splicing, it happens with a star schema and the data model, and it's just so effortless. You think of it as this bridge between systems, but it's read only, it's read only middleware. Rob Collie (01:12:29): Well, you start to view it as, okay now that purpose of that middleware is to tell you things that you should probably be doing to improve. Now, you can get the old fashion middleware that take action, more transactional middleware. And why can't that take off from inside the Power BI report itself? And there's so many different levels of ambition there. The least ambitious is the kind I just described with the calculated column and the hyperlink, at least don't make me re-navigate to the same context again, because the report knows. Tim Rodman (01:12:57): When your point about the hyperlink, yeah, before it gets even fancier, that's huge. The simple lowly hyperlink is the reason why, in my opinion, web-based applications are a big deal. Because like in Acumatica and I'm sure it's similar and other truly web-based systems, the transaction number is built into the URL. When I navigate to a record, the URL has that record ID in it. So if I build a hyperlink that has that record ID, I go specifically to that transaction, not just to that screen. That ability to click on something was something you couldn't really do in desktop applications. And you might be sitting there thinking, Tim, who uses desktop applications anymore? Tim Rodman (01:13:39): Well, in an ERP world, still most of the systems were designed like in the 1980s. And because of that whole, once you're in it, it's hard to get out of it. It's still very, very common. So yeah, even just there, if you just do that calculated column with that hyperlink, I think that's a big deal. Because I'm one click now right to the transaction where I need to make the change. Rob Collie (01:13:59): That's the least sophisticated version. And the most sophisticated version is that they're is a button in the report. You can increase quantity, "Oh we need to order three more widgets or 30 more or 300 more to fill this warehouse back up before it runs out." Right? Why not just to have the button right there that says, "Okay, order 300 or transfer 50 from warehouse six or whatever." Right? So, it could be directly integrated into the system. Now, [Louie 01:14:24] on that same podcast said, "Why doesn't it go the other way though? Why don't you go into the ERP system and have the reports just as like contextual popups there?" And I didn't even really understand a hundred percent what she was saying at the time, but turns out [Nar 01:14:39] on our team, just listen to that podcast. And then sent me this link to MicroStrategy. Rob Collie (01:14:44): I thought that MicroStrategy had converted themselves 100% into a Bitcoin trading operation. Because they've got a very... They're led... They have eccentric leadership let's say. But now, they have this thing, I forget what they call it, I think they call it Hyper-Intelligence. And it looks to me like it's a browser plugin that allows micro strategy reports to be attached to objects in your Salesforce, in your ERP, if it's web-based, right? You're in. Rob Collie (01:15:09): And there's probably something where you... I was hypothesizing this and I think he's right. There's probably something where you can identify certain HTML tags and say, "Take this dimension value out of this tag and use it to filter the report." Tim Rodman (01:15:22): I see some training software that takes a similar approach, right? It knows when you hover over something or click on something then that relevant video or whatever pops up. Yeah. Rob Collie (01:15:30): I've got a long history with browser plugins. Because I saw them deployed for the first time when I was working at Microsoft in the late nineties, there was... Office deployed this thing were it allow you to comment on any webpage, insert comments into any webpage. And the way it worked was you just, the comments weren't being stored in the webpage, because the webpage wasn't owned by the system. You could make a comment on an ESPN article. The comments were stored in this Office database, this Office server database that predated SharePoint, and the browser plugin knew what webpage, the URL and what element you commented on. And that's how it could pull up... So we could have like threaded conversations on webpages back in the late nineties. Rob Collie (01:16:10): Also, when we had Kai and Brad on the show in one of the earliest episodes, one of our entire earliest products was nothing, but a browser plugin that took over from Facebook. It's really funny story, if you haven't heard that one. Rob Collie (01:16:25): So, browser plugins are pretty amazing. And I looked at that and now I looked at that and I was like, "Oh, this is hot. This is a way..." As far as I know Microsoft hasn't explored this particular thing yet. That would be a really amazing. And it not difficult at all for them to do. I think this is a well within their capabilities and their platform. They could probably have that going in a couple of sprints. Tim Rodman (01:16:46): Why I think Dynamics 365 is very much on my radar is, I would define it this way... Technically, I don't think would actually be this. But I think of it this way, if you just design an entire ERP application in Power Apps, that's essentially, what's interesting to me about it. Because now, Power Apps can be inside Power BI, Power BI can be inside Power Apps and you now have the flexibility on either end, to your point, to put the report on the data entry screen or to have the button on the report. Tim Rodman (01:17:16): And because it's all a first class citizen in the same platform, you'd be able to do that. And I think part of the trick there is the back end and that's the Dataverse/common data model part of it. If all the data's getting stored in the same place. And I think that seems to be where they're headed, that's a pretty compelling scenario. Rob Collie (01:17:35): Well, I do think it bears watching even if the picture I'm painting is correct, this is still very much check-mate in low motion. It's not like we're four weeks away from the extinction of salesforce.com Tim Rodman (01:17:47): Case in point, most mid-market EERP systems are from the 1980s, making one of those things go away is almost impossible. Rob Collie (01:17:54): But Microsoft can play the long game here. It's like every year the oxygen content and the Salesforce bubble drops by half a percent. Tim Rodman (01:18:08): I totally agree with you there. Rob Collie (01:18:09): "You're breathing a little heavy over there, Salesforce? How's it going? I wouldn't worry about it Salesforce is no big deal, just atmospheric irregularity." Tim Rodman (01:18:19): Your only hope is Satya getting replaced with a Steve Ballmer number two, that's the only hope you have. Rob Collie (01:18:24): I don't think that's going to happen. I had a much greater affinity for Ballmer than I did for Bill. I think it's justified, but it also bothers me that Ballmer gets such a bad rep. Because he was a leader that I actually wanted to work for. I wanted to do better for him. And I did not get that feeling from... Bill had no desire to develop or encourage or inspire anyone. Tim Rodman (01:18:51): Yeah. I'm not talking about personal level. I mean just more as a strategic, the business Apps versus the phones and the retail stores, on that level purely. Rob Collie (01:19:01): Totally, totally. I get that. I'm not any good at that. I wouldn't be able to lead a multi-billion dollar organization like Microsoft in a chaotic time like that either. So, I'm very sympathetic to that. And so then it just becomes personal to me. Like, "Who would I actually want to work with? Who would I want to work for? Who would I want to pledge my sword to?" Tim Rodman (01:19:17): I got to circle back on something before we run it out of time. I won't say his last name, but a guy named Tony that I work with at the Robins company. So, I'll go back to the first guest blog post I did on your blog was April, 2014. And what I was experiencing or on the beginning of experiencing was the whole idea that you laid out in the book, which was more business first, not IT first, business led. And so I was trying that out at the Robbins Company, of, "Hey, how about instead of IT creating all the reports..." We had hundreds of reports and we just kept creating more and creating more. "How about we try empowering the business users to create their own reports?" So we did that with Power Pivot. We've built a little data warehouse that gave you easy access to the data, and then tried showing people how to do stuff with Power Pivot. Tim Rodman (01:20:07): And I'd say we had at least a couple of successful people that came out of that. And one of them was Tony. Who actually I believe in the past year or so, made it through your interview of death. Although, he is working at DataSelf currently, that's where he ended up landing. Point is that the whole business first, even with Power BI, it can succeed. Tony was on the business side, but he totally dove in, loved the stuff and became self-serving in a sense in terms of being able to self propel himself to continuing to learn DAKS, and all that stuff. Rob Collie (01:20:43): Yeah. And I think that there's still institutional resistance to this idea, big time, but it's not as open anymore. The idea that the business should be closely involved in the creation BI has, I think has become relatively non-controversial. I enjoyed it when it was controversial. It was more fun in some ways, but it's better for business when it's not. There's still tremendous resistance underground in IT circles in certain places anyway. All the time I'm running into examples where I see, especially large enterprises, by default attempting to use Power BI as just the new SSRS. They're try to pigeonhole it as visualization. It's just the thing that's at the end of the query drive train, that's still missing the point. Tim Rodman (01:21:24): Let's Still do all the ETL, all the data warehouse outside of it. And we'll just slap Power BI for the visual layer. Yep. definitely seen that. Rob Collie (01:21:31): It's not even the last mile, right? It's the last three feet, that's how they view it. Look behind the hood of those Power BI reports, and every one of them is powered by one wide franken table view out of SQL. You're just like, "Oh, Dios mio." Tim Rodman (01:21:43): When I think, you've made this point on previous episodes, that say in a sense you might say that challenge has been overcome, but I think it's cropping back up again, because of Power BI success. I think you've made this point on previous episodes, that now Power BI is so well known that it's in organizations, they don't even know what it is, right? So they don't even know about the need for a star schema and measures and all that. So, I think it is maybe coming back around as the same problem, but with different symptoms that you have to look for, if you want to attack it. Rob Collie (01:22:16): Yeah. Now it's being adopted a lot of times because it's so cost effective compared to the competition and it's become the responsible choice. The reason why the Excel crowd took to it, at least initially, like in our classes in particular, like is because they've been doing things in Excel the hard way for so long. And they're so personally motivated to not do that hard way and that limiting way. So, in order to break out of that shell, you had to start doing things a little bit differently. You had to learn about lookup tables, dimension tables, and why you need them. And don't hard code a year into your DAKS, use data ad. So, that formula works everywhere. Rob Collie (01:22:54): You just, all these things that you are motivated to make that change. IT very often, it's like, "Okay, well this is the new tech, we'll plug it into this role." And a lot of times the software is like that, right? You upgrade or purchase a software in a particular role and you still have to do a lot of shimming, but it's interface with the world is the same. It plays the same role. Power BI does not play the same role when you're doing it, right? So when you said you got this person, you're going to name by my first name, but you weren't going to give the last name, I was positive that different first name was going to come out of your mouth. Rob Collie (01:23:23): Because I have a similar thing to say, I've been this whole time to say it. I have no idea if you're aware of this connection, you probably are, but it'll be fun either way, but it'll be delicious if you're not aware of it. So a few years ago I ended up having some relatively serious business conversations with someone who was out of my league, not just out of my league, but also like a different flavor, very much the executive that's like, "Don't waste my time." Type of executive. "I'm not playing games here." That kind. Rob Collie (01:23:54): Which, even if I reached the level of success this person has, I wouldn't be like that. So, it was like, there were two problems going on, I was out of my depth and going cross species communication. And so, I was not acquitting myself well at all in these conversations. This guy, every time we interacted, he just came away, I think, with a lesser impression of me. Every single time. It was like every time I said something, he just would like shake his head like, "Oh, oh my sweet summer child." Right? Over and over and over again. And so like, he just wrote me off. Rob Collie (01:24:23): And now, years later I would approach the same conversation in a very different way. I've learned a lot. I've changed a lot and I do a better job, but I just kept faceplanting with this guy. And then after he wrote me off, months pass and all of a sudden now the blue, I get an email from him. And it says, "Why didn't you tell me you knew Tim Rodman?" Tim Rodman (01:24:44): I think I Know who this is. but keep going. Rob Collie (01:24:46): This was like the one time that I had any leverage at all on him. And I'm like, "Oh, yeah." And I reply back, I'm like, "Of course I know Tim Rodman, how do you know him?" So, that reopened the conversation. I swear, just him finding out that you and I knew each other, it was enough for him to reopen the conversation with me. And then, I faceplanted again. And he wrote me off again. But you almost resurrected that without even lifting a finger. Rob Collie (01:25:20): It turns out that the thing we were talking about turned out to be not even be necessary. We didn't need it. At the time I thought we might need this relationship. And so I was still trying, but I'm older, I'm wiser, and I've had more at bats. But this is a relationship I am permanently like his Bozo zone. That's how much weight your name carries. He temporarily thought I was less of a Bozo, until I re-convince him. Tim Rodman (01:25:51): It's amazing when you start blogging, right? You just have no idea who read your stuff and what they think about you. And I think it's a blessing and a curse. I almost wonder, actually, I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. There's a person I was following who worked at Microsoft for a while, Jen Underwood. And I heard her make comments on a podcast, something about blogging, she wouldn't do it again, if she could start over. And she is like, "I estimate that I probably lost over a million dollars through that dumb blog basically." Tim Rodman (01:26:23): And actually, you can't even find her blog anymore. I think for technical reasons, she was getting so much spam and stuff that the site went down or something. But I'm curious actually your perspective. Blogging is just giving stuff away, and you don't even get the return 90 plus percent of the time. How do you sit with that nowadays looking back? Rob Collie (01:26:42): It's a complicated answer. Well, first of all, P3 wouldn't exist if I hadn't blocked. There's no two ways about it. There's so many ways in which it wouldn't have existed without the blog. I wouldn't have even discovered how awesome this stuff was if I hadn't blogged about it. But that's something that a lot of people I think don't know, or even if they were reading back then, they don't remember is that... Well, actually I never really told anybody either. I came clean about it over the years in the blog. But the beginning, I didn't think it was going to be any good. I was just writing blog to find a job, because I had to move to Cleveland, my clock was running out of my Microsoft career because I was in Cleveland. And so, I wouldn't have discovered how good the tools were. Rob Collie (01:27:21): I wouldn't have then known that the consulting industry was going to need a real makeover from scratch makeover. And so, the idea of building a consulting firm in a new from the ground up was part of that discovery process. And then, all of the original business that I had as a consultant, came through the website. And of course you're right, my website traffic tells one story, and then the number of clients tells a different story. Lot, at least two zeros off of the number. You're like going for a very small percentage. Converting one of your blog readers into customers is amazing, in terms of actual quantity of people. And it was just the blog for so long, that was our biz dev. It was our advertising, it was everything. People would just hit us up, despite the blog looking silly and lots of stick figure illustrations. Rob Collie (01:28:09): And even those were like really, really polished compared to the origin illustrations I was using. A lot of times people would read the blog and not even know that we were a company. So, it was a crucial bootstrapping device in so many ways. I refined my voice. I learned what worked. I learned priceless amount of wisdom, built up in the course of writing that blog for so many years. And I have no regrets about blogging, I think it was great. Rob Collie (01:28:33): Now today I went and enter the Power BI blogosphere today, because it's just so heavily diluted. So heavily competed. There's so many players in that space and we've been out of that game. I've been out of that game for so long, that the vast majority... Well, not vast, but certainly the majority of people who are using Power BI today, have no idea about there was this thing, power pivot pro.com. So it's a different ROI today. Rob Collie (01:28:56): Now at the same time, think about giving things away for free. Look at the podcast. We're still in, we're not giving away formulas for free here, but people who are listening are deriving some degree of professional benefit from it, at times, it doesn't have to be every minute of every podcast, right? And we give it away. We're not charging for it, anything like that. So, we're still in the free content biz. We have some other things in the works that are even more ambitious. In the spirit of free content. Writing a lot of blog posts about DAKS would be, for us that's yesterday in our life cycle, we have moved to the next stage of things. And that's not really where the customers are necessarily. The richness of customers... The density of potential customers isn't necessarily, unfortunately it's not found where the formula writers go. Because the formula writers, they don't end up being in charge as often as they should be. Tim Rodman (01:29:45): I'm not even necessarily trying to put dollars on things. When you put content out there coming back to what opened this topic was, you make connections that you don't even realize half the time. Right? So you definitely get a return in terms of you learn a ton of stuff and doors do open. But I think the weird thing about it, is many times connections are made that you have no idea about. To bring it back to what brought this up, right? Tim Rodman (01:30:08): And there is something that's like, you don't get to participate in that, right? You don't even get to see that part of it. You just put something out there and it goes out into the universe and maybe never returns, right? And there's something a little sad about that part about it. But I agree that overall, it opens doors and it connects you to opportunities that never would've been there. Rob Collie (01:30:28): And if I had more time, and I had something interesting to be blogging about, and I actually do it just doesn't happen to be DAKS anymore, right? I would love to go back to writing in a public sense. I would write on different topics. I probably wouldn't write on Power BI. Tim Rodman (01:30:43): That makes sense to me, it's a trailblazing medium blogging, right? When you're cutting that path through the forest, blogging is just a great way to keep your sanity and even for yourself to go look years later at what you were learning at the time, right? But yeah, once you're rolling, it's just a lot of work for maybe not as much output. Rob Collie (01:31:03): And then just the personal satisfaction. I just don't think that I have nearly as much to contribute on an incremental relative basis to what it's already out there today, relative to what I could have before. Why would my DAKS' post be any more useful than someone else's. I am debating writing up a word Aragami model. Tim Rodman (01:31:21): Ooh, what's that? Rob Collie (01:31:23): Have you been exposed to a word Aragami thing? Tim Rodman (01:31:23): I don't think so. Rob Collie (01:31:24): The idea is a word that appears in the podcast for the first time in its history. So, Acumatica is never appeared in the podcast until today. However, Acumatica is going to get filtered out of the word Aragami game because it doesn't appear in our 200,000 word Corpus dataset of most commonly used English words. It's not an English word really. It's a proper... It's a brand name, right? So Acumatica is not going to count as a word Aragami. But we get transcripts done of every podcast. For example, go look at my Twitter account or the P3 Twitter account. Rob Collie (01:31:55): Most of the tweets lately from those two accounts just in the last few days have been the word Aragami word clouds of certain episodes. So think about the analysis that goes into that. We have to take these text files of transcripts, feed them through Power Query, QRL all of the headers and I stamps and all of that, and then ultimately split every sentence on every space and turn it into like a nearly million row table of individual words and who spoke them and when, and then do this really crazy like year to date or inception to date type of greatest formula in the world pattern. But looking for whether this word has been used before. Tim Rodman (01:32:32): That's sound like a good blog post. Well, it's one of those things too, right? Whether the blogs are worth it or not. I think both of us would say they are. One thing for sure, I sure appreciate all the blogging you did years ago. It turned a corner for me in terms of even what I'm doing now. And I'm sure there's many stories that you don't even know about that change people's career paths, because of all the content you put out there. Rob Collie (01:32:53): It has been like this really validating and rewarding victory lap thing about having some of the people on, the OG crowd, right? That was hanging around the campfire back then, seeing all the great, awesome things you all went off and did, it's cool. It's cool to have helped inspire that thing and helped jumpstart it. All I was, was just some number of months ahead of you on the discovery curve. "Hey folks, really cool stuff over here, check it out." Tim Rodman (01:33:18): Yeah. It's a good trail blazing medium. That's why I started blog about Acumatica. It was really a way for me to take notes, but do it publicly. Yeah. Rob Collie (01:33:26): All right. Well, what we're coming around to is that there's someone who was reading your blog, who is a big gun and somewhere along the way reading your blog after saying, "Oh man, that guy's a Bozo." He's like, "Wait, wait, wait, this name matches. This name that Tim is talking about is someone who was really important and valuable to him. Is this Bozo?" Tim Rodman (01:33:51): Well, I'm glad I give you another chance even though you faceplanted again. Rob Collie (01:33:56): Yeah. Again, I think that if that relationship needed to be reestablished, we could probably do that today. I never do anything right the first time. Tim Rodman (01:34:02): Maybe he listens to the podcast and you have no idea. So this will come back around. Rob Collie (01:34:05): Oh, I seriously doubt it. Maybe I will send him a link to this episode when it goes live and say, "Hey, your ears are burning and this one, man." So, yeah, podcasts are supposed to be partially about promotion. Give us your website. Someone's listening to, this is going, "Oh, yeah. Heck yeah. We're in Acumatica. We need to talk to this guy." How do they find you? Tim Rodman (01:34:28): I got a terrible website name right now, it's augforums.com. Rob Collie (01:34:33): A-U-G... Tim Rodman (01:34:34): A-U-G. Rob Collie (01:34:35): Forum? Tim Rodman (01:34:35): Forums, with an S. F-O-R-U-M-S .com. The idea was to be the AUG was Acumatica User Group. It was to be the forums for user groups. I haven't completely given up on that, but I was just at timrodman.com. So you can actually type in timrodman.com. It takes you to augforums.com. If you look up on the top there, click the consulting page and you can read about what I'm doing from the consulting side. It's got my email address on there. Rob Collie (01:35:00): Awesome. Awesome. Well, sir, I really appreciate us doing this. What a treat. Tim Rodman (01:35:05): Great talking with You. Announcer (01:35:06): Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive, help your business, just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Lars Schreiber is another one of the great examples of the human element of data that we love! He's an MVP, a long-standing member of the Power BI Community, and his passion for the Power Platform is quite catchy. Catch up with Lars at his website, Self Service BI Blog!
References in this episode:
Lars' Podcast with Jeffrey Wang
Lars' PowerPivotPro Blog Post from 2014
Episode transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today, we continue our tour to force for 2022 by welcoming MVP, Lars Schreiber to the show. You might know him today as a member of the Power BI community, and also a host of a podcast, which we're working on backstage for me to be on his podcast, because you know, fair is fair. But I've known Lars for a very long time. He was actually one of the OG readers of the old Power Pivot Pro blog. Not just a reader, he was actually also a guest blogger. The fact that he wrote a guest article for our old website eight years ago, led to a somewhat familiar conversation about how as you get better and better with Power BI you're increasingly embarrassed by your past work. That might sound familiar to a number of you out there. In that vein, we also discuss how a lot of the DAX in particular on the internet these days, I can't imagine how intimidating that must be to a beginner.
Rob Collie (00:00:53):
On the less technical front, we talk about how he went solo without securing base of customers firsthand. He just sort of stepped off that ledge, things turned out well for him, but didn't exactly go the way originally that he expected. We talk about some of the nuances of the German language. We also get on the way back machine, and talk a little bit about how Microsoft Office internationalized its product back in the late '90 and the very special and funny role that German played in our lives back in that point in time. We talk about the disturbing trend of Power BI being used, not as an analysis tool, but as a PowerPoint replacement where literally people are using Power BI to draw charts to display conclusions that they've already reached using their gut. We talk a lot of out the power of naming. He asked me a very interesting question about the origin of the Power Pivot name. We talk a little bit about the pros and cons and the strengths of that name and the weaknesses. And in general, we had a blast. Tom might have gotten a little bit over his 7% threshold in this episode, so we're going to be keeping a close eye on that if you know what I mean. So without further monologuing, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:04):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:02:11):
This is The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:35):
Welcome to the show. Lars Schreiber, is that how you would pronounce it? How do you say it in Germany?
Lars Schreiber (00:02:40):
I say Lars Schreiber. See there's that extra syllable it, is a three syllable word when you do it right. There's a little pause, little breath in the middle there. Anyway, I'll never master that, like I never mastered rolling my Rs in Spanish. Really, really happy you're here. I know it's late for you. You're from Germany, are you in Iceland right now?
Lars Schreiber (00:03:02):
No, I would love to be, but I'm not in Iceland. I'm in Hamburg, where I live.
Rob Collie (00:03:06):
What does loving Iceland on your Twitter bio mean?
Lars Schreiber (00:03:10):
It means I'm loving Iceland. The country is amazing and the people there are amazing too, so I've been there three times on vacation, and this country is nothing but beautiful. We've
Rob Collie (00:03:21):
Been there once as a family a few years ago. It was just an epic trip. I mean, holy cow, it is an amazing country, isn't it?
Lars Schreiber (00:03:29):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:30):
And apparently I know that, you know this because you've been there. Here's a little unexpected Iceland trivia; some very, very outsized percentage of the aluminum refining in Europe takes place in Iceland, because it's a very, very electrical intensive process and they just have free power geothermal and hydroelectric. They just have endless electricity in Iceland. I guess we should also expect them to be at the forefront of Bitcoin mining in Europe as well, right? All right. So loving Iceland, but not living in Iceland.
Lars Schreiber (00:04:05):
No, unfortunately not. My wife wouldn't go there, and honestly, I wouldn't know how to earn my money there because I know nothing about sheep, and they have so many of them and earn their money with that.
Rob Collie (00:04:17):
But Lars, they also have horses.
Lars Schreiber (00:04:18):
Yeah. I know. I know nothing about horses as well.
Rob Collie (00:04:21):
They have both professions.
Lars Schreiber (00:04:23):
They do. Reykjavik is a beautiful town, but when I want to live in Iceland, I don't want to go to a big city. I want to see the countryside and see all the waterfalls and stuff, and I wouldn't know how to earn my money there, so I stay in Hamburg.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:37):
Iceland is the one with the Blue Lagoon, right?
Lars Schreiber (00:04:40):
Yes.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:40):
Reykjavik?
Lars Schreiber (00:04:41):
Yeah, exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:42):
I want to go there.
Lars Schreiber (00:04:43):
It's a beautiful place. But I guess the Blue Lagoon is the most tourist made thing of Iceland. You don't see Iceland there really.
Rob Collie (00:04:52):
It is by far the most tourist trappy place in the country. However, you still got to do it. I mean, there's nothing quite like getting off the airplane like we did, the overnight, you never really even slept, you're just like blurry eyed. You drive in the cold because you know, even though it's June, it's still cold in the morning, you drive to this place, you don't speak the language. They speak the language, they speak English. Still it's very disorienting when you haven't slept. By the way, we changed in the airport, bathrooms at RA Vic airport into our bathing suits, but then put winter coats back over the top of them, went to this place. You go in, you freeze to death, and then you get in the warm water, and then you have cocktails. The weirdest sequence of events, one of the weirdest anyway, end-to-end. The flight for you isn't quite as long. I wouldn't think.
Lars Schreiber (00:05:35):
It's two and a half or three hours from here.
Rob Collie (00:05:37):
It was surprisingly short for us. Those polar routes like six or seven hours, but it was still overnight and didn't sleep and all that. So Lars, this is what we do on the podcast about data; we talk about Iceland.
Thomas LaRock (00:05:49):
The Iceland podcast. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:51):
Yeah. Raw Data, a show about Iceland. Have you snorkeled with the dry suit in that river, essentially? The spring that runs between the North American tectonic plate and the Eurasian plate?
Lars Schreiber (00:06:04):
No, I haven't. I've seen a lot in Iceland, but I didn't do that.
Rob Collie (00:06:08):
Well, I mean here of Mr. Fancy pants, he's been to Iceland three times, but he hasn't snorkeled the tectonic divide.
Lars Schreiber (00:06:16):
Did you you do that?
Rob Collie (00:06:17):
We did because my wife planned our trip and she's amazing. We did do that. It's pretty awesome. Okay, so you said it'd just be so hard to imagine earning a living, living in Iceland, even though they offer sheep, and horses, and aluminum refining, and power, and the Blue Lagoon. You could work there. So how do you earn a living today? What would you be leaving behind professionally if you left Hamburg?
Lars Schreiber (00:06:43):
Honestly, I'm living my dream right now. I'm a freelancer, earning my money with Power BI. And because my background is business administration, that was not really what I was supposed to do, but I always liked to do this day data stuff. Starting with Excel, then doing a lot of VBA then Power Pivot with and without space in the middle.
Rob Collie (00:07:06):
Yeah. You were one of the OG, the originals.
Lars Schreiber (00:07:08):
And back in 2018, I decided to become a freelancer and it works out. It's fun.
Rob Collie (00:07:13):
So you built a client base for yourself, geographically around you in Germany. We've had a number of people on the show who are similarly living this dream, who at some point, like 2018 for you, went rogue, went solo. Not really rogue; solo, independent. And one of the things I always like to ask people is, how did you know when it was the right time? And it's a leap? Did you already kind of have clients lined up? That's usually how people do it; they're already trying to know they're going to have plenty of work to do. How did that go for you?
Lars Schreiber (00:07:45):
I always had side projects next to my employment. And back then it was VBA. I always had VBA projects for clients and I did a lot of VBA for reporting. And when Power Pivot came up and Power Query and of course, Power BI with its visualizations, all that. Yeah, I could ignore VBI, didn't write email line of VBA anymore, and I did it with this. And because you're asking for, "What was the initial point where you decided to become a freelancer?" That was something that was maybe not the best idea to use that as a starting point. That was my MVP, and I was working in the community, and many people knew me in the community, but I misunderstood being recognized in the community, and having a client base. That is something completely different. And when I became an MVP in 2017 and I always wanted to be a freelancer, I looked at my wife and she said, "Do it." And I said, "Okay, if not now, then never." And I thought, "Okay, now the clients will come and they didn't come in the beginning."
Rob Collie (00:08:53):
I'm so sorry.
Lars Schreiber (00:08:54):
It was a tough time. It was a lot of learning, but it works out now.
Rob Collie (00:08:59):
But I think the truth about the MVP program, like so many things, is kind of in the middle, and in the middle of what, right? In the middle of what non-Microsoft people think of it from the outside looking in, which is this glowing thing on the hill. Like you thought, "There you go. There's the badge. Now where's the money?" Right? But the other endpoint is the one that I had, which is as an insider. When I worked at Microsoft, I loved the MVPs, and I was frankly even intimidated by them. But having that insider knowledge of the program, it was like too familiar to me. And so, I might not have valued it as much as it should have been. And I eventually ended up bowing out of the program because I don't want to do the paperwork anymore, to be perfectly honest.
Lars Schreiber (00:09:45):
That's the reason why you're not an MVP anymore?
Thomas LaRock (00:09:47):
I know it's sad.
Rob Collie (00:09:48):
I know it's so sad, right? And then there were a number of years in there in between where I was like, "Ah, I should really get that back," but I wasn't doing enough in the community to really make a case for myself during those years. Now with the podcast and everything, we probably are doing enough now, but it's got to bubble to the top. So how did you and without giving away any secrets, obviously, what was that process like? Okay, so you have the MVP, you hang that on your website, and you just sit back and go, "Okay, here they come." And then they don't. What do you do next? How did you recover from that?
Lars Schreiber (00:10:20):
Honestly, I'd never do something special for becoming an MVP. I blogged. I started podcasting a lot later. I'm creating videos now. And I started doing it just for fun, because I didn't know anyone who did Power BI back then. I had one friend that I could infect somehow with this virus. Oh no, we shouldn't use that word anymore.
Rob Collie (00:10:41):
It's okay. It's okay. We can talk about the R zero, the R not value of Power BI, right?
Lars Schreiber (00:10:47):
No, I meant the word, "Virus."
Rob Collie (00:10:49):
I know, but still it's an appropriate metaphor. We talk about Kevin Overstreet still proudly calls himself, "Patient zero for Power BI," at Eli Lilly, which is a pharmaceutical company. Right? So we're cool. "Virus" is not a canceled word. We're still okay with it. I think.
Lars Schreiber (00:11:06):
Good. Good to know.
Rob Collie (00:11:09):
That's how my blog started too. There was a little bit of professional interest in it. In the beginning, I needed a resume outside of Microsoft. That isn't what powered me to write two post a week for five years. It was excitement, it was enthusiasm. People were always asking me like, "You're pouring all this effort into this blog. Do you know how it's going to ever pay off for you?" No. I got a vague sense that it probably will, but I don't know how. That's fine.
Lars Schreiber (00:11:33):
And look how many people do you have influenced with what you did? I know Matt Ellington is someone, I know he was influenced by you. You already had [inaudible 00:11:43] on your podcast. She was influenced by you. I read your blog posts back then in 2012, '13, I guess, and I started thinking, "Why isn't something like this there in German language?" And this is how I started my blog. So you influence a lot of people by doing that, I guess, without having the idea of doing that.
Rob Collie (00:12:05):
It did feel like a religion of sorts, right? But a good one, like a really good fundamentals, like everyone should know about this. And it is really cool to know that I did help ignite so many amazing people. A lot of people who are working in Power BI today have no idea, they don't even know who I am. It doesn't matter. And that's good news. You want something to be so popular that what happened 10 years ago? "What? That was something going on 10 years ago? Most people heard of Power BI five minutes ago. And you look at it, look at the number of people who are producing amazing content and essentially, discovering and inventing new cool techniques all the time. This virus has really gone.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:48):
Pandemic.
Rob Collie (00:12:48):
Has gone pandemic. I don't know if we can say, "Pandemic." "Pandemic" is probably a canceled word.
Lars Schreiber (00:12:53):
Yeah, but I get your point.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:55):
How else are you going to explain a virus that has left containment?
Rob Collie (00:12:59):
Seems like, "Pandemic" might have a negative connotation. I know, "Virus" does too, but, "Pandemic" is a bridge too far.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:04):
Cancer has a pretty negative connotation, but we haven't canceled that word. I think pandemic will be safe.
Rob Collie (00:13:09):
Hey Luke, can you edit that out? Tom just said a bunch of really dreadful stuff.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:14):
This is why I'm never on the podcast. Everything gets just cut.
Rob Collie (00:13:19):
You know those episodes where Luke's voice at the beginning says, "With your host Rob Collie," and he doesn't say, "With your co-host," well, Tom was there. We just edited the hell out of him. No, he wasn't. We don't do that. So you didn't deliberately become an MVP, but after you went solo, after you decided to turn professional, to turn independent, you mentioned that at the beginning, it didn't just happen. There weren't just clients. What did you do then? How did you react to that? Because you're okay now.
Lars Schreiber (00:13:52):
Yeah. I didn't change anything. It was just a matter of time. It's necessary that people get to know you, and if it's a bigger company, of course, different people from within the company are asking for help. So, that's actually the case when I give trainings. I'm a trainer and a developer for Power BI, and when I give trainings for bigger companies afterwards, 50% of the attendees ask questions that makes you more projects and more money, of course. And that takes time. So I just decided to give me that time. And the good thing was, my wife is working in IT, so she learned something really important, not like me. And she said, "Do it," and if you don't earn so much money in the meantime, we can take mine." That was a big help, of course.
Rob Collie (00:14:36):
It's good to have the safety net.
Lars Schreiber (00:14:38):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:14:38):
It's still a big leap. So you didn't have the portfolio of clients waiting in the wings when you went independent.
Lars Schreiber (00:14:47):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:14:48):
That just magnifies the size of the leap. So the amount of courage and tenacity, you have to really stick to it in a situation like that. So well done.
Lars Schreiber (00:14:57):
And I guess we shouldn't ignore one fact. In Germany, Power BI wasn't a thing a couple of years ago.
Rob Collie (00:15:06):
Oh.
Lars Schreiber (00:15:06):
I guess when Power BI desktop or Power BI Designer Preview started in the beginning of 2015, nobody in Germany knew what Power Pivot was and even Power BI started a couple of years ago, maybe 2018, maybe 2019. There were so many people who didn't know about it. And I have no data, no good idea why it's like that. But I guess, it's because in Germany, people don't like to read English stuff. And there still wasn't so much good stuff in German. Now with Office or Microsoft 365, many people just see, "Oh, there's Power BI, and it is like Excel, so we all should be able to use it." We all know it's not like that, but that's the marketing behind it.
Rob Collie (00:15:51):
One of the reasons, probably for the delay is that the German translation of the applications just takes longer. They need more space. The words are longer. This is an old joke; I was around at Microsoft when they went to, they called it Worldwide EXE-
Lars Schreiber (00:16:07):
EXE?
Rob Collie (00:16:07):
E-X-E, like the executable files?
Lars Schreiber (00:16:10):
Ah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:16:11):
Worldwide EXE, meaning in Excel.exe, going forward the worldwide EXE campaign that swept through Microsoft office, the engineering teams probably I think when the Office 2000 cycle. So basically the idea was is that if you took Excel EXE under a microscope and looked at it, you wouldn't find any English sentences in it anywhere. Basically all of the strings that populate the UI, the labels for buttons, the help, all of that would be moved out of Excel ECE into separate DLLs. Separate delayed load library files per language.
Rob Collie (00:16:54):
So Worldwide EXE meant, for the first time ever the Office apps were going to be written in a way that was completely language neutral. There'd be nothing in the exit files themselves, the actual application files themselves, that was language specific. And it would hydrate itself from its com companion DLL, for whatever language you told it to be. And up until then, it wasn't like that. There was a German version of Excel.exe, and an English version of Excel.exe, and they decided to go this more modular way, right? And because this was a big effort at the time, I spent a lot of time with localization engineers, whose job is to man manage this process, but also get all of the strings rewritten in every different language, all bajillion languages that Office gets delivered in.
Rob Collie (00:17:42):
And there was a joke going around and I think you can still find it on the internet today, it wasn't a Microsoft joke. What we would do by default as program managers, we would say, "Okay, well here's the English sentence or the English label that is required for this error string," or there's an error message that pops up. We provide this, however many characters, let's say it's a 200 character English phrase. Okay? And then the developers would say, "All right, well, we probably need to pad that a little bit; maybe 256 characters, because the different languages will be different lengths, right?" But then German would come along and require 400 characters, so I don't think this'll be nearly as funny to a German as it is to an American that worked in software. I think the joke is something like the list of translations for English words. So English word, "Dog," German translation for dog is, "Scratching, sniffing, wolfing woofer," or something. It's a made up word, right?
Lars Schreiber (00:18:37):
Yeah. Okay.
Rob Collie (00:18:37):
But it conveys the fact that the German nouns basically contain all kinds of verb of what this thing does. It's a very long description. It's very long-winded description of what this thing does. "Panting, scratching, sniffing," whatever. Okay? And then, "Dog catcher," the word for that in German is, "Panting, scratching, sniffing, catcher."
Lars Schreiber (00:18:57):
Because we're combining all the words. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:18:59):
Yeah. Right. The joke was you've really got to account for those Germans. Over, and over, and over again, we'd make this mistake; this string allocation is too small. You need to bump it up for German. But then we also found out that Swedish was even worse. So.
Lars Schreiber (00:19:12):
And try Finish.
Rob Collie (00:19:13):
We never did finish. All right. Well Luke, you can decide whether that joke is worth leaving.
Thomas LaRock (00:19:23):
I want to hear the data origin story. I don't think we have that yet.
Rob Collie (00:19:27):
No, we don't. We don't business background. Right?
Lars Schreiber (00:19:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:19:31):
What's your first collision with data? What was the first time you encountered Excel or similar, and started getting that itch that this might be something that appeals to you?
Lars Schreiber (00:19:40):
I started working as a business control and I always saying I was a financial controller, but I guess that's not correct. I was a business controller doing budgets, and forecasts and stuff.
Rob Collie (00:19:51):
You can call it whatever you want. People over here in particular, right? But they might call it financial. We've had this on the podcast before. If you work outside of finance, you call it, "Finance," but if you work in finance, you call it, "Finance."
Lars Schreiber (00:20:04):
I will try to remember that. Thanks.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:06):
Nobody says that, I don't know what he's talking about.
Rob Collie (00:20:10):
We still call it, "Finance." That's fine. Business controller, financial controller. I can't tell the difference.
Lars Schreiber (00:20:14):
Me neither. That's why I left that job. No, just kidding. I just liked Excel. I liked helping people because it took just a couple of months and people noticed that I know that software, and they came to me and asked me questions and I could help them. And I liked to help people, especially with data. And when you see people sitting in front of Excel and trying to build a sum using their calculator, they're having in their left hand. There's something you've got to do
Rob Collie (00:20:41):
Call to action.
Lars Schreiber (00:20:43):
Yeah, exactly. And I replaced a guy who created a lot of code to extract data from a mainframe, all these big pixels on a black screen, and trying to read out the data. Something you would do with a Power Query with a couple of clicks now. But back then, it wasn't possible. And we read all the data from the screen into an Excel file, to being able to analyze the data, and to reload it into other systems. And I somehow was the guy who had to maintain that file and that code without knowing anything about VBA. And I just learned it because I was interested in and that's how all that started.
Rob Collie (00:21:24):
Your description of the person you're looking or shoulder and they're using Excel, and they've got a calculator on the other hand, you know, when a dog or a child falls into a river, and someone jumps in and saves them, and then they're interviewing the hero on the news afterward, and the hero is just saying, "Ah, I just did what anybody would do in my position. I had to do something," right? That's sort of the same feeling you get when you see that happening in Excel, right? It's like, "Well, I just have to," you got to jump in and save the baby. We should have similar shows where we entered. "Yeah, boy, that was a close one. They were almost going to waste the rest of their life adding that up with the calculator, but I rescued them."
Lars Schreiber (00:22:07):
The thing is usually people are sitting in an office for 20, 30 years, and nobody tells them how to use the software they put on their PCs. Yeah, "Here's Excel. Here's Word. Here's PowerPoint." I'm loving the Power tools we are having right now, but I never knew how mighty or how powerful PowerPoint is. I never used it the way you could do. And I have some friends who are deep into the PowerPoint thing, and there's so much to learn. But if nobody shows you what's possible, you will never learn. Especially if you have no idea what you could look up, what you could solve with this tool. This is why I always, when I give a training, especially in Power Query and I have a basic training for as an introduction, at the end, I always give a demo for what's possible too when you learn a bit more about M or learn a bit more about how to use the UI, because people need to know what's possible to invest the time, and energy, and maybe money to get to that point. If they don't know that they will never try to get there. I'm
Rob Collie (00:23:17):
So glad you do that.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:18):
I like that.
Rob Collie (00:23:19):
I'm partly glad you do that. Because it validates something that I've been doing for a number of years. I don't really teach a whole lot of classes anymore. I certainly got a lot of reps. I've taught a lot of classes.
Lars Schreiber (00:23:28):
I can imagine.
Rob Collie (00:23:30):
Over time, what I started to do, in a typical two day training is I started teaching a less and less ambitious curriculum over time. When I first started out, I was trying to dump everything I know, everything I'm capable of doing, I was trying to make everybody capable of doing that in two days. Really not realistic. I couldn't have been a student in my class and learned it in two days. It's just no way, right? I had learned it myself over the course of years at that point. So I started to do the same sort of thing; so I started to not take people nearly as deep into DAX. I'd move more slowly and I'd take them less distance total. However, I would do something very similar because I felt, even though this was the right thing to do for people, I was also short changing them, I was doing them a disservice.
Rob Collie (00:24:17):
So then I would take a break and say, "Look, okay, everyone, you can just take your hands off your keyboards. You don't need to try to remember any of this. You don't need to learn how to do this; I'm not even going to try to teach you. I want to show you just some amazing capabilities that you know to look for." Oftentimes, I give them a Google search so they could find the blog post that explained it in detail when they needed it, they could write down the Google search, things like that. But yeah, like the art of the possible; you've got to stretch people. There've been so confined in this little jail by the tools that they've had available to them and that they've known how to use, right? It's natural, when you take the walls down off of that jail, they just stand right there on that square of concrete. And so it's like, "Hey, let's go run around the yard. It's a big, big, big world." And I found that, just showing them what was possible would people excited, and as long as they knew it was there, they could go find it later. Is that similar to what you do?
Lars Schreiber (00:25:12):
Yeah, exactly. I guess because we have this podcast episode today, I was thinking about the past 10 years, because I started in 2011 with your blog posts and your DAX stuff, and that made me think of the last 10 years a bit. And when I was at my first employer, that was a supermarket company, I would've killed for what's possible with Power BI desktop today; just putting the longitude and latitude on a map and having all the stores on a map. I tried to solve that back then with a VBA script and Google Earth, maybe you remember that desktop top application that you could download. And I didn't write that code myself, but I found it somewhere, and someone created a code that in combination with Google Earth made it possible to put little icons on a map where all those 300 stores were and see it in Google Maps and a browser, that was so freaking amazing. But if you see how easy it is, if you have longitude and latitude, and probably a desktop, you can't believe it. But if you have never seen that, this is possible with that tool, you will never try to learn it. And this is why you need those ideas, those demos.
Rob Collie (00:26:25):
Ambition expanding. Strengthen the ambition muscles, not just the capability muscles.
Lars Schreiber (00:26:32):
And I think that's my personal experience. Not just with me, but also many others; many people learn new stuff in their spare time, not during the working time, because their employer doesn't give them the time to do it ever, or they don't think it's time to invest. So you have to tell those people why they should use their spare time, which they usually should use for family or hobby to invest it in something new. And they need to know why it is the right thing to do.
Rob Collie (00:27:04):
Have you ever been hired for training twice, by essentially the same people, to teach them the same thing again?
Lars Schreiber (00:27:14):
The same people are the same company?
Rob Collie (00:27:16):
Same people, same topic.
Lars Schreiber (00:27:19):
No.
Rob Collie (00:27:20):
What I'm really getting at is, I have. That happened to me once, just once. And it was because the first time, even though they, "Learned it," they didn't go back to their jobs and use it. You said the spare time thing, right?
Lars Schreiber (00:27:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:27:37):
Well, when people go to training, it's sort of negative spare time. Their regular is still continuing to pile up demands during those days that they're in training. And so, it creates this debt. The first instinct is, "Let me go clear out that debt and then I'll go apply the new stuff." Slippery slope. One year later, you Rob Collie's back teaching you the same thing again. That spare time thing, it's the truth, right? The full time job, it looms large over learning new things. It's the enemy, the opponent of learning new things. I'll say it this way: you've never been called back to teach the same thing to the same people yet. It still might happen.
Lars Schreiber (00:28:23):
Yeah, it could be, but it wasn't the case so far. But because we were talking about this spare time thing and learning thing, when I saw Power Pivot the first time, I simply didn't understand what it was. I didn't understand its analytical database. I thought it's a bigger Pivot Table. But when I started learning what it really was, I noticed that's different than learning, how to use the V look up in Excel. And I also noticed when I don't get projects at my current employer, and I didn't get any, I need more time to learn it. So I decided to change my contract with my employer, so that I didn't work on Fridays, so I could read those books and learn this stuff.
Rob Collie (00:29:05):
Wow. You were the only person in Germany reading English books.
Lars Schreiber (00:29:10):
No, for sure not. But back then, there were only English books. That's the case.
Rob Collie (00:29:15):
That's amazing. That's a soundbite. It was so compelling, even though you didn't understand it all yet, it was so compelling that you needed to restructure your employment agreement to give you 20% of your work week back to learn it. That's deliberate. That is deliberate AF, as the kids might say.
Lars Schreiber (00:29:38):
Yeah, the thing is, I wasn't happy with being in control because I like the data stuff. And I was thinking about going back to university and studying IT, but I wanted to do this BI thing and I couldn't study business intelligence whatsoever. Then I just talked to my wife and she said, "Okay, then do it on your own." But of course, I needed the time for that. So then I decided to read the right books and do it on my own.
Rob Collie (00:30:03):
When you say it so casually like that, it's one thing, but as an outside observer, that's just a very conscious process. I don't think I've ever had anything in my life, my career, play out that consciously. It's just this bounce, bounce, bounce down the mountain, a little bit of control, but not that much. I didn't even know when I started blogging about Power Pivot that it was going to turn into my next career. I discovered that.
Lars Schreiber (00:30:31):
But what you can't ignore is that I had you as an example. I could see it works somewhere. It works in the US, it for Rob Collie and for Matt [inaudible 00:30:44], and it will work in Germany and the other parts of the world as well. And of course, I couldn't know how many clients I could get in a certain amount of time, and I also didn't know if I can make a living of it, but I knew I wanted to do this thing maybe as an employee, maybe as a freelancer, but I wanted to do that stuff and therefore I needed to learn it. And that takes time if you have no clue about Star Schema, and what's a proper ETL process, I did know all these things, but I was willing to learn it.
Rob Collie (00:31:19):
Even though I worked on the product, Power Pivot, your experience learning it, it was very similar to mine. I mean, we were coming at it from the same backgrounds; the Excel and VBA. I'm sure you can run circles around me in VBA. I know that you haven't been doing a lot of it lately, neither of I, but peak Lars against peak Rob and VBA, I'm definitely going to take you in that contest. We still came from the same place. I'd heard about Star and Snowflake Schema forever. It was one of those things that I just let wash over me. I didn't didn't really know what the difference, didn't care. It sounded cool, but I understand it. Now Power Pivot was the reason to learn what those phrases meant.
Lars Schreiber (00:32:01):
There's a question I wanted to ask you forever; do you have a clue who was responsible for giving the Verde pack engine, that name, Power Pivot?
Rob Collie (00:32:12):
I do actually, or at least I know the person who is heading up the effort, her name's going to escape me at the moment. I have to go through some really, really old emails. Basically, the product manager, marketing coordinator for Project Gemini was working with the naming firm. Microsoft will bring in a branding firm that helps them name things when they're actually going to name something; they almost never name something. Especially in the old days, they would give a really boring name like Microsoft SQL Servers, Analysis Services, it was the German approach, right? It was the, "Pant, scratch, sniff," right? But every now and then they'd want to invest to actually name something. They'd bring in some pros. And sometimes those pros, the, "Professionals" were awful. I think I'd already moved to Cleveland at the time when they were naming it, but I was still a Microsoft employee, and I know the product manager for Project Gemini, she led the process. I ended up collaborating with her a couple more of her roles that she had at Microsoft afterwards, which is why I really regret that I don't remember her name at the moment, but she came back with Power Pivot from working with the naming firm.
Lars Schreiber (00:33:23):
The reason why I'm asking the following; when I was a VBA program, a VBA developer, I had a problem and I talked to the IT, "Hey, can you help me with VBA?" They looked at me and said, "Hey, VBA is not really a programming language. We don't know anything about VBA." And then, I talked to my other controlling colleagues and asked for help. And they said, "Hey, I'm not an IT person. I'm not a developer. I know nothing about VBA." So you were this island, you were almost lonely with your topic.
Lars Schreiber (00:33:53):
And coming back to this Power Pivot thing, I think the name is really confusing, because suggesting this thing has something to do with the Pivot Table, and it does not really need to have connection to it. But on the other hand, it's really smart because imagine you go to a person and say, "I know you're a business person, but please help me doing a business intelligence data model, and help me creating such a report." Nobody would say, "No problem. I'll start doing it." But you put this little icon into Excel, simply completely different engine opens up, but it seems like being in Excel. And it ha a name that sounds familiar with the word. And suddenly people try to do things they would have never tried in a different application. So, Power Pivot was a really good name for making people using it. But for me, it took a while to understand it's not the Pivot Table that is on Power.
Rob Collie (00:34:59):
When you're using Pivot Tables, like normal Pivot Tables, back in the day, regular Pivot Tables. You're not thinking at all about the engine behind the scenes that's crunching the numbers to produce the Pivot Table. In fact, it was kind of a jaw dropping surprise to me when I was on the team and someone explained to me that the Pivot Table calculation engine had nothing in common with the calculation engine for the sheet, like the normal Excel grid. They don't share a single line of code; they've got nothing in common.
Lars Schreiber (00:35:30):
Interesting.
Rob Collie (00:35:31):
It's a completely different beast. It's like this whole calculation engine behind the scenes. And the really technical people at Microsoft would refer to that, sometimes they'd call it the Pivot Cache. Now I know the Pivot Cache is also... Oh, it's been a long time since I've used that word. Do you remember that word? "Pivot Cache?"
Lars Schreiber (00:35:46):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:35:47):
Man. That's a blast from the past. This was the thing that made your file more than twice the size if you duplicated the data, right? So most people thought of the Pivot Cache is just the extra copy of the data, but that Pivot engine, that's the thing that got swapped out by Power Pivot. Take this really clunky one table at a time, no relationships, no advanced formula language at all. Just swap that out behind the scenes and plug in this other superpowered one, give it the same interface. Really, the only way that Power Pivot could surface its data in Excel, most of the time anyway, was through a Pivot Table or a Pivot Chart. There were cube formulas as well, obviously, but naming is so hard. Even Pivot Table is a disaster. It was a terrible name.
Lars Schreiber (00:36:33):
Why?
Rob Collie (00:36:33):
Well, what is Pivot?
Thomas LaRock (00:36:36):
Yeah. You got to make me look it up. So SQL Server has Pivot and Unpivot and I thought that was some antsy standard.
Rob Collie (00:36:42):
I don't know, but the average Excel person in 1998, who is supposed to be adopting Pivot Tables, right? Has no what the SQL syntax of Pivot and Unpivot. I tried to rename it Summary Tables. It speaks to the novice better. Because I'm not a sequel person, I still to this day do not equate Pivot with aggregate. They're not the same noun at all. They're the same verb. They have nothing in common.
Lars Schreiber (00:37:08):
I'm afraid I'm missing the correct words for it now, but a Pivot is a point where you can circle things around. I guess it's a French word. I'm a quite sure it's Pivo?
Rob Collie (00:37:19):
Oh, Power Pivo. A Pivo Table.
Lars Schreiber (00:37:22):
I might be wrong, but it's about this circling things around the single point. And I guess that's the main criteria of a Pivot Table; slicing, and dicing, and making columns rows, and row columns.
Rob Collie (00:37:34):
Yeah. Swapping rows and columns on a Pivot Table is the only thing that really remind me of pivoting. It's like a twist or a transpose, right? Pivot and pace transpose seem to be similar concepts to me. I just want to swap rows and columns, but the number one reason to create a Pivot Table isn't to swap rows and columns; it's to see what the data's telling you. It's to roll up 40,000 rows into grouped subtotals. To me, Tom, even in the SQL world, it has more in common with group buy.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:04):
So, no.
Rob Collie (00:38:06):
Oh shit. Now's where I actually have to learn something.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:09):
So I'm sorry, you said more in common. And so I don't want to say no to that. To me, there's two different things. So Pivot is not an antsy standard, but I want to say group buy roll up in cube are. I think those are common aggregations, and part of [inaudible 00:38:25] standard as to how the engine should return the results. The biggest thing is how data gets stored, and then you need to transpose the rows into columns, and you want to perform an aggregate on the column now, which used to be rows. So there was a need for that, obviously, but that's not an antsy standard. It's definitely in TSQL. So Microsoft saw that this was a need and started building that out, but now just the concept of this for me, that first of all, that it wasn't in Excel yet, or if it wasn't Excel, it was all done by hand and macros and things like that. And clearly, somebody said, "Wow, they're spending a lot of time building these macros when we could just make magic happen for them."
Thomas LaRock (00:39:06):
But I've written before, and I've talked to you about the idea that you could just put your data in Excel and perform these operations in the matter for a few clicks, as opposed to needing to know a language, is just so powerful. If you said to make it a Summary Table, I'd be like, I don't want to do some, I want to do an average. I want to do all these other things.
Rob Collie (00:39:25):
Summary doesn't mean, "Sum." It just means-
Thomas LaRock (00:39:30):
But I think it's also a bad name.
Lars Schreiber (00:39:31):
Let's call it, "Aggregation Table."
Thomas LaRock (00:39:33):
Aggregation Table comes close, but I hate the way it sounds.
Rob Collie (00:39:36):
Yeah, it's a little, it's a little too nerdy. I'm going to have to say that, nah, you're wrong, summary's better. Thought about this for a long time. But here's the thing; it doesn't have to be perfect to be infinitely better than Pivot Table.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:49):
See, I thought Pivot Table was fine. I don't have a problem with Pivot Table.
Rob Collie (00:39:52):
We take it for granted. So, you said it was kind of mind blowing that Pivot Table. Weren't always in there. You know what? They're still not in there. Right? For the majority of Excel users, they're not in there.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:05):
Oh, yeah, I know.
Rob Collie (00:40:07):
They're not using it. I mean, you wouldn't believe, sitting next to an electrician on an airplane flight one time, he's describing to me this Excel process that he has to hand off to some cell consultant can pay him a lot of money and all this kind of stuff, right? And I'm sitting there listening to him and going, "This sounds like a Pivot Table." And I just, so I took my laptop made some data for him, like, "Okay, many feet of conduit blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And then I create a Pivot Table, and I went [inaudible 00:40:34], and he's like, "What?" And then, so I'm talking to him about it, 20 minutes goes by and he leans over to me and says, "Hey, can you show me that again?" He's like, "I really want to remember it this time." Like Lars was saying the beauty of the Power Pivot name was that it was building off of something that people already knew. Now at one point, one of my jobs at Microsoft was to try to get more people to know Pivot Tables. When I worked on the Excel team, that was one of the things that I was overseeing anyway. I've wrestled with this problem a lot. And I kept coming back to, "Oh God, I wish we could change the name." And we couldn't, so. Pivot, didn't speak to the Excel audience.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:12):
Right, I get that.
Rob Collie (00:41:14):
From zero. But once they're on side with Pivot Table, you leveraged it with Power Pivot.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:20):
Would it make you feel better to know that the concept of Pivot and Unpivot is also in Python code?
Rob Collie (00:41:25):
I'm not surprised.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:27):
But, clearly there's a need for the concept of rows to columns. Because that's what we're talking about, right?
Rob Collie (00:41:33):
Yeah. But those processes don't necessarily mandate aggregation.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:38):
No.
Rob Collie (00:41:38):
And the Pivot Table is like Lars said, the aggregate table, even though it doesn't roll off the tongue in English, right? That's what it does. It's not to take your 400 rows of data and turn it into a different 400 rows of data or in the a case of Unpivot, an Unpivot operation actually you end up with more cells. You end up with a larger square footage of data than you had beforehand. Whereas a Pivot Table is a cruncher. Pivot Table's always going to be smaller than the input. That was the mission, anyway. Naming, I'm obsessed with naming. I don't know if you can tell. Let's name some things. What have we got that we wish we could rename?
Thomas LaRock (00:42:20):
Perview.
Rob Collie (00:42:20):
We've talked about it on this show, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:42:22):
It's a fancy data catalog.
Rob Collie (00:42:24):
That's right. We were talking about this with John Hancock, where his software that catches underage predators.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:29):
Perview.
Rob Collie (00:42:32):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:32):
It's Perview. See, I understand that purview is an actual English word and what it means and all that. I just don't think in terms of a service, it was likely the best choice. It is descriptive, but I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:42:49):
In the spirit of international relations, we should probably explain to Lars why this is funny.
Lars Schreiber (00:42:53):
That would be nice. Yes. Thanks.
Rob Collie (00:42:57):
All right. So the English word, "Purview," what is the definition of that word?
Thomas LaRock (00:43:01):
Well, I'll just go look up the definition. It's so hard. It's hard for me to explain.
Rob Collie (00:43:05):
See that Lars, even we don't know English,
Thomas LaRock (00:43:08):
"The purpose or scope range or limit."
Rob Collie (00:43:11):
But there's also the English word, "Pervert." So John Hancock's company, they fight crime. And the free version for law enforcement is catching child predators. And for good reason, they just can't charge for that. That's free. And so, I think on that podcast, we stumbled into the joke, we're talking about Azure Purview, and then we realized that, "Hey, that'd be a name for John's software is perv view." Lars looks so pained. I wish we had a screenshot of the agony.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:45):
You ready for this? A story I heard years ago. Hyper-V, but when they first wrote Hyperv somebody looked at and, "Hyperv? What is this Hyperv thing you have?" And the guys at Microsoft, like, "Hi Perv? How do you get Hi Perv?" And they're like, "No, seriously. That's what that says." And they're like, "No, it's Hyper-V." So they put the dash into Hyper-V.
Rob Collie (00:44:10):
Yeah. See, there you go. Naming, right? That's the naming department. That'd be the naming person's purview. Putting the dash in Hyper-V.
Thomas LaRock (00:44:16):
Make sure somebody says the word, "Hyper" and not, "Hi perv," right?
Rob Collie (00:44:20):
That's right, yeah.
Lars Schreiber (00:44:21):
Especially when you're an international worldwide company. Many different cultures will interpret those things differently.
Thomas LaRock (00:44:29):
Well, that happens all the time. Yeah.
Lars Schreiber (00:44:30):
I can remember that.I talked to Michael Russo and they're doing this, how do they say hello to all the people in their videos? They they're using an Italian hello ciao or something. I'm pretty sure it's something different. And he said, "There are many people who don't understand that, don't understand it's hello in Italian." And so you really have to do it waterproof or bulletproof what you're doing there, and still people will misunderstand what you're saying. And I guess naming is a very hard thing to do.
Rob Collie (00:44:59):
Yep, especially those Germans in there 80 character words as we've
Thomas LaRock (00:45:05):
Discussed, that's one of the jokes, like, "Is there a long German word for," and then say something, and then there's almost always an answer. Usually, it's just something weird. Like, "What's the long German word for when you are alone in stress eating all by yourself," just something weird. And you're like, "Oh yeah, there's a word for that." It's like a feeling emotion or whatever. It's just, there's all these little things that you can always ask for whatever scenario, "Is there a long German word," on Twitter and then somebody will give you an answer.
Lars Schreiber (00:45:34):
Sometimes I have to laugh about it myself because when you read it, it's funny. But I read once German is a difficult language. They have one word for driving somebody over with a car, hurting someone with a car is [foreign language 00:45:49] and [foreign language 00:45:49]. If I say [foreign language 00:45:52], then I drive somebody over. And if I say, [foreign language 00:45:56], so I pronounce the A more than everything else, then I circle around him.
Rob Collie (00:46:00):
Oh, okay.
Lars Schreiber (00:46:03):
So it's the same word for two absolutely different things.
Rob Collie (00:46:07):
Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah.
Lars Schreiber (00:46:08):
But I had to read it on Twitter to recognize it myself.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:12):
It's the same word. So it's spelled the same?
Lars Schreiber (00:46:15):
It's spelled exactly the same way. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:16):
So, you can only hear the difference? So for example, if this was in a police report, This one word, "Did he drive over him or around him? It's not clear to me."
Lars Schreiber (00:46:26):
You can get it from the context when you read it. It's better to hear somebody saying it, yes.
Rob Collie (00:46:32):
There a command version of this word? Meaning like you tell someone to drive around them, or you tell someone to drive over them? Because this could get really, really dicey, like a written order.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:42):
And you're what? In the mafia?
Rob Collie (00:46:47):
Yeah. Well, I mean, lives could hang on the balance here.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:50):
So we started talking about Iceland, and now we're talking about long German words.
Rob Collie (00:46:54):
You're right, we should bring it back the real stuff. So in terms of the work that you do, what can you tell us about it? Is it lots of clients? Is it a handful, or one that you spend most of your time with? Like Inca, do you find yourself staying close to home in terms of what you originally were working on, even though you didn't want to be a controller, are you mostly working with controllers now? Or are you kind of all over the place in all kinds of different data fields? Just give us some of the texture.
Lars Schreiber (00:47:18):
Of the texture. I guess my work is pretty close to what Inca does, but I have more clients than her. By the way, she's a good friend of mine. This is why I know that I have, I don't know, I guess 30 or 40 customers. And I remember you have written blog post about how Power BI, Power Pivot will change the VI consulting, having many clients, but just for a short period of time, just showing them what's possible, and then maybe a bit of coaching, and then they're doing it on their own. This is exactly what I'm trying to do. My ideal customer, my typical customer comes from a technical, non-IT department, so from marketing, or controlling or finance. Finance?
Rob Collie (00:48:03):
Finance. But when you say that you have to take your pinky finger off of whatever you're drinking.
Lars Schreiber (00:48:07):
Yeah, next time.
Rob Collie (00:48:09):
Finance.
Lars Schreiber (00:48:14):
And I'm trying to make their life easier. So I do three things; I develop stuff and they're not interested in how I did it. That's not the usual case. The other side is, I give trainings and show them how they can do this stuff on own. That typically doesn't work right from the beginning. Because when I give my basic trainings, I always say, "I have a lot of experience in martial arts, but 10 years ago," and I say, "This is my one day women's self defense course. After that, you won't be able to defend yourself properly, but you know what you're dealing with." And so people know what's ETL, what's a data model, what's a measure, what's a report, and what comes after, because afterwards I show them, usually people think Power BI is Power BI Desktop. Yeah? And they have heard there's a free version of Power BI, which is called Power BI Desktop. So you have to show them that there is another world behind this published to web, or publish button. And so those people usually come to me afterwards for consulting. And this is what I do; I build solutions, but show them always how I do it. I want to transfer my knowledge, because even if it doesn't sound logical for a consultant, I don't want to see my clients again, for the same reason.
Rob Collie (00:49:30):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I completely understand that. The traditional consulting move in certain situations is to hoard the knowledge from your client, so that they're dependent on you. And they have to come back to you for over, and over and over again. Well, even if you set aside for a moment, the ethics of that business model, or whether it feels fair, set that aside for a moment; it's boring to be the one that has to do that same thing over, and over, and over again. Why not show them how they can write the different version of the calculate measure, right? If all they need to do is just copy paste the formula and change the base measure, the year to date, version of spend, you wrote that formula for them, but you didn't write the year to date version of revenue. Well, come on, they can do that, right?
Rob Collie (00:50:17):
And I know we've got calculation groups, and all kinds of whiz bang things. Now we didn't have those back in the day. We hacked, we hacked the Power Pivot files. We literally hacked them to duplicate measures across families like that. So, I completely understand. Have you ever found though that you run into clients that just don't care? They don't want to learn? Even though you're dying to transfer the knowledge, they're just sitting there going, "Oh, come on. I love the report. I love it. Just keep more of this let's keep going. Don't try to teach me. I don't want to learn. I don't want to be you." Have you run into that at all?
Lars Schreiber (00:50:53):
That's a good question. I need to think about it a bit more, but I don't think that I had people who didn't want to learn. I had one scenario, one training I gave for a company and there was a person, a woman who seemed to be good at Excel, that's what she said. And in the end, I noticed she just knows how to use the SUM function and nothing else. Which is okay, just tells you about how people think about themselves.
Rob Collie (00:51:22):
That's right. Yeah. And also how they think about Excel. How deep is it?
Lars Schreiber (00:51:26):
Yeah, exactly. And when I did one day of training in Power BI Desktop, and everything was fine until we wrote the first DAX measure. And then she said, "Oh, are there more formulas? Do I have to remember all those formulas?" And I just did this some and the SUM and a SUM X nothing else. "Oh, is there much more?" And in the end, after two days, one day of training and one day of consulting, I ask her, so what do you think about PA BI now? And she said something that made me almost stumble out of the room, but then made me think about it a bit deeper or a bit more. She said, "Power BI is nice, but most of what you can do with it, I can do better in PowerPoint." And I was, "Has she been in the same room with me during the last two days?"
Lars Schreiber (00:52:13):
But then I noticed what they wanted to do was creating reports with comments, what you usually do in a PowerPoint presentation. And it took me a while to make her aware that what you do with Power BI is one step before, or you create the comments, you find the structures, the reasons why you have 1 million in turnover less than last year. So the difference between having an analytical report and a report you can print out as a PDF. And to notice that, that changed the way I deal with people. When they say, "Hey, I need this or that," I first of all, ask them, "Do you need an analytical report? Or you need something you can print out afterwards and put on the wall?" And I try to find that out right at the beginning. And that was pretty interesting for me. Quite lately, in what I do, I guess it was two years.
Rob Collie (00:53:05):
Ago. I'm going to make a guess that this particular training client, that company is in the management consulting industry. It sounds like a McKenzie, am I close.
Lars Schreiber (00:53:16):
No, they were in advertisement, but it could have been. Yeah, sounds like that.
Rob Collie (00:53:20):
As you were saying, Power BI is the step before that. You're finding out why, why that's like this. Right? I was just thinking to myself, "Oh, this audience," the reason why I came to the conclusion that this was a management, it was like, "But this audience, the people you're talking to, they already know why. They already know what they want to say." Your analysis might conflict with that. They're not, "No, no, no. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative." Right? They already know what they want to say. Now, they want to invent the data in the charts to back it up. It's really hard in Power BI, because all it does is add up the numbers that tell you the truth.
Rob Collie (00:54:00):
All right, advertising, you know what, for my purposes, I'm going to round manage consultant to advertising agency. I'm going to call myself correct. These two industries have that same thing in common; they already know the narrative.
Lars Schreiber (00:54:14):
Yeah. Maybe.
Rob Collie (00:54:16):
Now they just need to package it.
Lars Schreiber (00:54:16):
It was a huge learning for me.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:18):
They're data riven as long as the data supports their preconceived ideas.
Rob Collie (00:54:23):
Yeah. And once you've understood that way, why do you even need the data? Just dispense with all that pointy headed geek work, and then let's get down to the business of making money. That's so funny. Well, we have a little bit of experience with this. Someone who used to work with us, went to work for, let me be very vague, for a very, very large consulting firm. General purpose, big, big, big consulting firm. His reports back from the trenches sound like, "I am really only using Power BI as a PowerPoint substitute." They wanted a Power BI expert. They poached him from us, all's fair. And now, he's the data driven PowerPoint guy.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:10):
Wow.
Lars Schreiber (00:55:11):
Power BI is PowerPoint for data.
Rob Collie (00:55:13):
Yeah. That's a good ambition. We've got a little ways to go yet, I think. You mentioned PowerPoint being deep. How deep have you gotten into PowerPoint? I had the same revelation somewhere around, I don't know, 2014. "Oh my God, where have you been on my life, PowerPoint. I didn't know all the things you could do for me." Are you a big slide master? Do you put a lot of effort into slide decks?
Lars Schreiber (00:55:36):
Not really, but I know how to use morphing. I like those effects a lot. But the problem is how could you say how deep you're into a tool, if you don't know the whole tool? That's why all people are Excel masters, and they are not.
Rob Collie (00:55:50):
There's a joke that I always used to tell in my training classes, which is: you ask someone how good they are at Excel and whatever answer they give you, invert it to get the truth. If they say they're good at it, they don't understand what they're signing up for. They don't know how deep it is. Because someone who's actually good at it is going to hedge. Lars, you're really good at Excel. You might be a little rusty like me, but you're really good at Excel. Certified good. But if I ask you on the street, you don't know me, whatever, how good you are at Excel, you're not going to say, "I'm in the 99th percentile."
Lars Schreiber (00:56:23):
For sure not, no.
Rob Collie (00:56:24):
You are not going to say that. That would be true, you are easily in the 99th percentile in the world on Excel, easily. But you're not going to say that. You're going to say, "Well, Hmm. Yeah. I can do some things." Because you don't know what's coming next, right? If you say you're good at it. And I say, "Oh man, those database functions. Right? Huh? You know the database functions?" You'd be like, "Um, maybe." If I say I'm really good at Excel and the very next thing that comes out is array formulas, I know I'm in trouble.
Lars Schreiber (00:56:57):
Yeah. Me too.
Rob Collie (00:56:59):
I'm like, "Control, shift, enter, right? That's yeah."
Lars Schreiber (00:57:02):
It's a good book.
Rob Collie (00:57:03):
Yeah. It's a really good book. And those are the formulas you can't debug. It's like the DAX of Excel, but harder and less capable in my opinion. Yeah, so someone who tells you they're really good at Excel and then you find that they know the SUM function, well, they're the one that graduated from using the calculator 12 months before next to the Excel. And that's a huge change, right? It's an infinite change in expertise. So how could you perceive it as anything but, "I'm really good." Are you branching out into the broader Power platform very much? Staying closer to home and primarily Power BI, what do you find yourself getting into these days? Have you tried Perview? I hear it's really good.
Lars Schreiber (00:57:47):
No, I haven't tried that. The thing is I work from home, also before the pandemic started because I have three and a half year old twin boys here and yeah, my wife and they need me at home. So today's world with all teams and Zoom make it possible to earn the money from home. And, the thing is, time is limited and you know how fast the Power BI platform grows. And honestly, I always think I know too less. That's a personal problem, I know, but that makes me think I haven't got the time and energy to dip my toes into Power Automat, or Power app or something like this. No, I haven't tried that yet. I am willing to do so when it makes sense, but I didn't do it until now.
Rob Collie (00:58:34):
I have that in common with you. Our company does all these things, but I personally am still very close to home. If I'm using the tools myself, I'm really just using Power BI. But in terms of our client engagements, we've really diversified quite a bit. And it's not because we wanted to diversify; it's that our clients' needs started to mature. What we found is that, once they start to get the BI problem mostly under control for the first time ever, they've never have been anywhere close to that, they take a step back and their focus zooms out a little bit. And that's when it dawns on them that, it sounds like a cliche, but BI is really just one part of the overall improvement system.
Lars Schreiber (00:59:20):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:59:21):
So they start to focus more on the inputs and outputs, the human processes that the dashboard, the report might recommend or suggest. How do you make that more convenient? How do you tie it closer into the workflow, essentially? Right? And so it tends to grow outward as the BI problem starts to stabilize a little bit.
Lars Schreiber (00:59:41):
There is no doubt that the Power platform is a huge thing and that this no code, low code environment is something that will Be successful in the future. For sure. But I'll learn something from a good friend of both of us, Matt Ellington. You have to know when you have to ask for help, and you can't know everything on your own, or for yourself, or what's the right English at this point? And this is what I do; I try to put my strengths together and just consult for Power BI. That's why I don't offer VBA consulting anymore. I just don't do it. I didn't do it for the last three years or four years. And this is why I don't offer service at this level.
Rob Collie (01:00:20):
And that's wise. Super wise. We got dragged into a VBA project recently, and I was telling everybody ahead of time, "I don't know folks. I think we should pass." And sure enough, you just get into this really obscure stuff. People come to me like I'm like, "I have no idea. You're asking me about some really, really obscure nuance of the object model and how it behaves. Now we need to go find the three people in the world know the answer to this." Used to be five, but now we're down to three. Specialization is amazing, right? I wouldn't be doing things any differently than you if it was still just, me for sure. I mean, there's no two ways about it. I've really only learned three or four really hard skills in my whole life. It's a very short list of things that I've learned to the level where I can claim competency. Excel is one of them. DAX and simple data modeling is another. I can't even really claim Power Query. I'm not very good at it. You talk about knowing when you need to ask for help; whenever I write Power Query, I need to ask for help. I know that it's coming, just a question of when.
Lars Schreiber (01:01:29):
Yeah, but there is so many amazing people in the community right now. Every time when I think my Power Query solution is good. I talk to [inaudible 01:01:37], I recognize, no, it's shitty.
Rob Collie (01:01:38):
Yeah.
Lars Schreiber (01:01:39):
And when you think you have master your DAX measure, and then you read the next article by the Italians who tell you something about shadow filter context that I still don't understand. There's no way you can think you mastered something.
Rob Collie (01:01:52):
Shadow filter context. I never even heard of it. This is a rumor it's like Bigfoot. It's a Loch Ness Monster. There's no such thing. It just blows me a way that I can look at people's DAX today and have no idea what it's doing. Not just the daks language, but the dialects that people have adopted, the style of DAX that a lot of people now write. I get the sense that the things that are being written, I can write formulas that do the same thing. My formulas will be about 1/10 the character count. It's just that at scale, my formula's not going to perform very well, compared to this multi-paragraph thing. I like to tell myself that. It might be that I couldn't have written the formula at all. I don't know, but every now and just for grins, I just crack open to the random DAXs article on the internet, just so I can laugh at how mind blowingly out there it can be, relative to what I understand. If that had been the way DAX was when I was getting started, I would've never approached it. I would've never learned it. I would've never gotten in. If it looked to then the way it does now, I would've said, "No, not me."
Lars Schreiber (01:03:00):
But, what you did for the community, at least from my point of view, was a huge deal because I can remember that I bought the first book of our Italian friends, and I simply didn't understand what they were talking about. The first book I ever read about Power Pivot was from Mr. Excel, Bill Jelen, and it's basically a number of formulas explained what they're doing, but without concepts and data modeling whatsoever. And the second book I read was from the Italians, and I had no clue what they were talking about. And you explained it for the Excel user, and that made a huge difference. The audience that should use Power Pivot. So that made it possible for me to dive into this topic and then read further books.
Rob Collie (01:03:48):
I have this visual in my head of I'm down on my hands and knees, and you're using me as a stepping stone. You're stepping up on my back to get to the Italians. So the book by Mr. Excel, Bill Jelen, I read that same book. He and I both acknowledged that it was essentially a tour of the UI. "Here's what every button does," and some examples and things like that, but he took a pass just completely didn't address the DAX language. It was too ambitious of a project at the time he wrote that book, I didn't know DAX.
Lars Schreiber (01:04:22):
Right?
Rob Collie (01:04:23):
There's no way he could have known DAX. Talk about naming, and naming mistakes and things that you regret. The reason my first book was called DAX Formulas for Power Pivot, we envisioned it as a companion to his book.
Lars Schreiber (01:04:36):
Ah, interesting.
Rob Collie (01:04:38):
"You've had the UI tour, now let's talk about the formulas." It ended up being more than that by the time I was done, but the name was stuck. We'd already put it in the catalog and I didn't even think we should change it.
Lars Schreiber (01:04:50):
How can it be that you didn't know DAX at that point?
Rob Collie (01:04:55):
Easy. Because I don't learn things. It's a better question, how did I ever come to learn it? So I had sort of two separate dates of leaving Microsoft. I had one in April, 2009. I found out that I was basically losing my court case, and I had to move to Cleveland to be with my kids. I wasn't going to be able to keep them in Seattle with me; their mom was going to take them to Cleveland. So I had a lot of things to get in order, and it wasn't until February of 2010 that I officially left Microsoft. But in the intervening 10 months, other than getting relocated and moving to Cleveland and all of that, and selling my house in Seattle, during that time between April of '09, after that is when the DAX language first started to truly appear, even in the internal builds of Project Gemini at Microsoft. The calculate function didn't exist, I don't think. It didn't exist or it just recently been conjured about the time I stopped going into the office.
Rob Collie (01:06:00):
So I learned DAX from the outside from a great distance, and I might as well have not have been a Microsoft employee when I was learning it. And I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with it's design. I wish I could claim I did, because it's so amazing, but I didn't, I had nothing to do with the DAX language. I had originally been involved, but none of the work that I did ever made it into the product, because it wasn't as good. What they came up with later was far, far better. My thinking on the topic wasn't very good.
Lars Schreiber (01:06:32):
I had Jeffrey Wong on my podcast to that topic.
Rob Collie (01:06:35):
Yeah. And you know what? I think I actually listened to that one.
Lars Schreiber (01:06:37):
Okay.
Rob Collie (01:06:38):
And I don't consume anything. So that's where the first time I ever heard Jeffrey make the distinction, and it's an obvious distinction once you hear it, but the distinction of Power BI being a model-centric BI tool, whereas all the competitors are report-centric. Heard that on the Lars three syllable Schreiber podcast. And I've been using that a lot since then, so I appreciate you having Jeffrey on the show so I could have that lingo. Yeah. So Jeffrey's one of them, for sure. Jeffrey, Marius, Amir, Howie. Sure there are a couple others in there that I'm forgetting, but this was the task force, and they worked long nights just arguing over the design of the language. Amir eventually had to start using a trick, and he would tell me this during the day. "So what I do is I just tell everyone we're not going home until we decide this."
Lars Schreiber (01:07:33):
Wow.
Rob Collie (01:07:35):
That was the only way that they could reach consensus sometimes. No one gets to go home to their families until we're... People would tend to abandon their positions a little bit more gracefully under those circumstances. It's a very, very argumentative team in a mostly good way.
Rob Collie (01:07:53):
The huge advantage I had, I had two big advantages. Number one was I had nothing but spare time. We talk about the tyranny of the full-time job, and how it's the enemy of learning new things. I didn't have a full-time job then. My full-time job was really to learn about and blog about... That was sort of the deal that I'd kind of handshake made with Microsoft was, I'm not in the office, I'm not doing my normal job, but in this interim period, I'll advocate for you. And I did. And along the way I discovered, "Oh my God, I can actually learn this. It's actually really, really good. It's way better than I thought it was going to be. Oh my God, I'm going to stick with this even after I leave Microsoft, this is going to be the thing." I had no idea that was going to be the outcome.
Lars Schreiber (01:08:34):
But you had a good idea of what it would become in the future, that it would revolutionize how people deal with data. And that was well, the big thing?
Rob Collie (01:08:46):
After a few months I did, but I promise you when I launched the blog, I did not know that. Not at all.
Lars Schreiber (01:08:53):
When the idea of Power Pivot came up, did Microsoft have an idea of the Power platform or at least Power BI platform? Was it planned back then?
Rob Collie (01:09:02):
No. No, not that I was aware of at all. Have you managed to get Amir on your podcast?
Lars Schreiber (01:09:06):
No. I have planned that for a longer time, but [inaudible 01:09:11] did a very good episode with him and he asked a lot of questions I already had. So.
Rob Collie (01:09:15):
Yeah. The format of this podcast, we're lucky. It's basically just get together and chat. If you don't prepare questions, you don't get concerned about what other people have already asked on other shows. Our lack of preparation is a feature. It's genius.
Lars Schreiber (01:09:35):
That's something cannot do with my podcast, because English is not my native language, so I really prepare the questions, not only what I ask, but also how I will ask it, so that the person I'm asking will definitely understand what I'm talking about. But yeah, if you can do it in this relaxed form like we are doing it right now, it feels comfortable, that makes fun. It's entertaining. I like it.
Rob Collie (01:09:57):
Well, Lars, I have really enjoyed this. Is there anything that you were expecting me to ask you, or hoping that I was going to ask you that I haven't?
Thomas LaRock (01:10:06):
Or wishing we didn't ask you?
Rob Collie (01:10:09):
There's always that.
Lars Schreiber (01:10:10):
Honestly, no. I was just very excited for this episode because you were my starting into this journey. It's definitely like that. And I can remember in 2014, I published my first English speaking blog post on your block.
Rob Collie (01:10:28):
That's right.
Lars Schreiber (01:10:29):
That was a very special point in time for me. And since then I thought, "Okay, nothing is impossible. Just try it."
Rob Collie (01:10:37):
Hey Luke, let's make sure we look that one up and link it in the description.
Lars Schreiber (01:10:41):
No, don't do so. I read the article today. It's shit.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:47):
Oh, we are keeping that.
Rob Collie (01:10:47):
Hey. Oh, come on, why not? I that's part of it, right? That's the other thing I always tell people in my classes back when I taught them was, "Your first go goal is to be bad at this because when you're bad at this, you're amazing. The version of you that is bad at these tools is going to be so freaking capable, relative to what you're used to. Yeah, but you're going to keep getting better, which is going to shock you. Every three to six months, you're going to look back at things you did three to six months ago and go, "Oh, I was so cute back then. Look how adorable I was. I had no idea what I was doing. Oh, it's embarrassing. The way I did that."" Then I would tell them most of the time, when you are embarrassed by something you did in the past, you will not go back and fix it, because that thing that you built is already working and working so well, and everyone that's using it is loving it. And there's more ROI in doing new magic, in new places than going back, correcting something that only you care about."
Rob Collie (01:11:48):
Think about it. You know this Lars, right? You've been around the website long enough that I carried around an extra [inaudible 01:11:56] in the greatest formula in the world pattern in my first book, and defended why it needed to be there, and explained in great detail why it needed to be there. On Twitter recently, someone showed me a picture of their original DAX Formulas for Power Pivot Book, and I'm like, "Oh, does that copy the extra [inaudible 01:12:14]?" They're like, "Sure does." How about this? If what you wrote in 2014, if you weren't embarrassed by it, if you didn't think it was very good, if you still thought it was good, that meant that you hadn't evolved in the intervening seven years.
Lars Schreiber (01:12:31):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:12:33):
Of course you've evolved.
Lars Schreiber (01:12:34):
That's how I like to see it. It's good if what you did in the past is not completely shit, but that you make an improvement is hopefully what happens.
Rob Collie (01:12:47):
All right. I'm going to go look at your 2014 article. I'm going to make a decision. Come on, you can't get any worse then publishing, printing 10,000 plus copies of a bound volume that dedicates an entire page to explaining why this all is necessary when it's not. One of my earliest blog articles, I didn't realize yet that I didn't know the words filter context yet, but I didn't know that filters didn't travel both directions over a relationship. I didn't understand that yet. I'm really grateful now that they, by default, only travel one direction makes things a lot more predictable. But I didn't know that then. And I published an article where, "These are the right numbers," and Casper who wasn't at Microsoft yet, he wrote in some comments and said, "Ah, I'm not getting the same, I don't think that's the right answer." And I'm like, "Of course it is." And then I go looking at it. I'm like, "No, you're right."
Lars Schreiber (01:13:48):
He was on your show as well, right? I have heard this story before.
Rob Collie (01:13:53):
I was dividing by the whole calendar table, and thinking I was dividing by the number of days that were active in the fact table. Nope.
Lars Schreiber (01:14:04):
But on the other hand, because you learned it that way, you know how to teach it to people who have never heard about filter context, row context, because you have been there.
Rob Collie (01:14:15):
The jargon free zone.
Lars Schreiber (01:14:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:14:16):
Being a bad learner, I think that's a fair label to attach to me, being a bad learner. Made me a better teacher.
Lars Schreiber (01:14:24):
Are you kidding me? That's my motto for last 10 years. Yes.
Rob Collie (01:14:28):
I'll leave you with a thought; you pointed out that now it's a remote work culture, and you're working from home and everything. Iceland calls. Oh, but your wife has a job still tied to the region, so.
Lars Schreiber (01:14:41):
The thing is, if I go to Iceland, I have not only remote relationship to my customers, but also to my wife and my boys.
Rob Collie (01:14:49):
I'm super happy where you found yourself; living the dream. Not many people get to say that. So congratulations. Long road.
Lars Schreiber (01:14:56):
Same to you. It was a pleasure being here, thanks for the invite. Thanks for the work you did. You influenced many, many people, one of them. I have been, thanks to you.
Rob Collie (01:15:05):
Talking to people like you with stories like these, it's the coolest. To be perfectly honest, it's even hard for me to emotionally believe that I played a role like that for someone like you. It's hard for me to believe that you didn't emerge fully formed, you know? It's just so authentic. It's just a really touching thought. It's a good thing what we've done.
Announcer (01:15:26):
Thanks for listening to The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day
For the second part of our 2022 New Year double feature, we sat down with Olivier Travers. Olivier has had quite the data journey that has taken him from France to Germany, Portugal, Italy, and finally, to Chile where he serves clients all over the world as a Business Intelligence advisor and consultant...an expert in Power BI, he's focused on data visualization, SaaS integration, and software architecture! He also knows quite a bit about MMA and Brazilian JuJitsu, and a spirited discussion on who would win in a fight ensues!
Check out Olivier's website HERE!
References in this episode:
The Ascent of Money PBS Documentary
Narcos: Mexico
Raw Data with Shishir Mehrotra
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. If you don't yet know why we're releasing two episodes in a single week, just go back and briefly listen to the intro at least, to the Jeff [McNeily 00:00:09] episode. Our guest for this episode is Olivier Travers. Now, Olivier is kind of like a Microsoft data platform international man of mystery. And of course that's the subtitle to Austin Powers. But I think Olivia is a little bit closer to the James Bond end of the spectrum that inspired that. He's just your average French citizen who moved his family to Portugal, and now has spent the last decade and a half in Chile. Pretty standard stuff. And that international flavor pulled us in some unexpected directions. We pretty quickly got into the topic of international trade and the role that different currencies from different nations play on that stage. There are some positively fascinating aspects of that domain that, believe it or not, citizens of basically every country on earth are familiar with, except for American citizens, because the dollar holds a very specific role in international trade. And it just never comes up in the USA.
Rob Collie (00:01:06):
Continuing that James bond-like theme, we talk a little bit about his jujitsu hobby and exactly how long it would take to make me give up. Spoiler alert, not long. In general, he's just a very calm and deliberate person. So as you're listening to this, try to imagine him wearing like a white tux sitting in Monte Carlo, playing baccarat.
Rob Collie (00:01:25):
On the technology front, we spend a pretty reasonable amount of time talking about Power Query, pros and cons. We talk a little bit about the idea of using Power Query as like a SQL macro recorder. We again lean on Tom to get him into Power Query. I feel like we got him a little closer this time, but still not quite over the edge. Just top to bottom a fascinating fellow, and I hope you agree. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:52):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:56):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host Rob Collie, and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:20):
Welcome to the show. Olivier Travers ... that's a exactly how it's pronounced in the native tongue, yeah? What does it sound like when you say it?
Olivier Travers (00:02:28):
[foreign language 00:02:28] Well, that's only with other French speakers, so Travers is good enough.
Rob Collie (00:02:34):
I think you should deploy that more frequently than just with French speakers, because the French speakers won't be as impressed with it. It sounds so good.
Rob Collie (00:02:42):
Now, it does put a lot of pressure on the other person you're introducing yourself to, right? It puts a lot of pressure on them. But depending upon the situation, maybe that's appropriate. Damn. One more time.
Olivier Travers (00:02:53):
[foreign language 00:02:53].
Rob Collie (00:02:53):
Oh, so good. End of episode. Hang it up. Let's go.
Olivier Travers (00:03:00):
It's hard to top it.
Rob Collie (00:03:02):
All right. So you're just the average Frenchman living in Chile?
Olivier Travers (00:03:08):
Yeah. I don't know what's average about that, I guess.
Rob Collie (00:03:12):
It's such a cliche these days. We're really tired ... oh, another one?
Olivier Travers (00:03:17):
There are so many of these, right?
Rob Collie (00:03:19):
Is there anything about that origin story? How long have you been there?
Olivier Travers (00:03:22):
We've been there for 14 years after spending four years in something in Portugal. So we left France 18 years ago now.
Rob Collie (00:03:32):
Wow. World traveler. Do you have Chilean citizenship? Are you still on some sort of long visa or ... ?
Olivier Travers (00:03:40):
It's close enough. I have permanent residency. So for most intents and purposes, it's the same. I can vote in any election, but I don't think you can be president or buy land at the border. There are a few things that are off limits when you're not a citizen, but by and large, you it's the same. Legally, in most instances, I would be represented and have the same rights and obligations as a citizen.
Rob Collie (00:04:07):
Can't buy land at the border? It's very specific.
Olivier Travers (00:04:10):
Well, I don't think they're the only country that does that, is they don't want some citizens from the country at the other side of the border to buy and seed that land to Argentina.
Rob Collie (00:04:22):
I see. So it's like a Crimean Peninsula situation.
Olivier Travers (00:04:26):
There's not a lot of trust in the area, generally speaking.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:30):
You're in Chile, but you're from France. And as far as I know those two countries don't border each other. So I would think they would let you buy land anywhere, but ...
Olivier Travers (00:04:44):
Probably they wanted to have something generic. You don't really ... a law made of exceptions is not really good law, so probably they wanted to have a generic case. And also you could say, well, you can be anything, but we don't trust your loyalty since you're not a citizen. So I'm guessing that's the Russian element.
Thomas LaRock (00:05:01):
This is weird to me because I don't know that we do this in the US.
Rob Collie (00:05:05):
No. We're not really concerned about being invaded in this way. The world's largest military by far tends to not be quite so worried about selling an acre of land.
Thomas LaRock (00:05:16):
It's the Canadians. You can have North Dakota, all of it. What do we care? Buy all the land you want.
Olivier Travers (00:05:24):
You can always invade Canada any time anyway, so ...
Rob Collie (00:05:28):
And Mexican cartels don't really need to own the land on the other side of the border to tunnel under or whatever they're doing, right? And it's just part of NAFTA.
Olivier Travers (00:05:36):
The drug trade, you mean?
Rob Collie (00:05:38):
Yeah. I just got finished watching Narcos Mexico season two or three.
Olivier Travers (00:05:42):
Don't spoil it. It's on my backlog.
Rob Collie (00:05:45):
It's a really good show, but it's semi-documentary. NAFTA plays a big role in the most recent Narcos Mexico season. I'm not spoiling anything, but who needs elaborate smuggling when you have an open border for commerce. The only reason you need to dig a tunnel under the border is to try to break someone out of prison or something.
Olivier Travers (00:06:07):
There are some edge use cases.
Rob Collie (00:06:09):
Yeah. Still some use cases. But again, whether you happen to hold an American ... USA passport, doesn't stop you.
Rob Collie (00:06:15):
Okay. So world travelers, you said we, so you're not alone. You have a family.
Olivier Travers (00:06:21):
I'm there with my French wife and our two kids. Our daughter was born in France three years before we left. Our son was born in Portugal, then we moved to Chile when he was still a toddler, so they grew up mostly in Chile, which makes them, I don't know what exactly. I don't think they know either. French, but not quite.
Rob Collie (00:06:39):
So was it an itch to see the world?
Olivier Travers (00:06:41):
Yeah, I'm sure it looks that way. There was a bit of a method to the madness. So the itch, there was an impulse. Let's put it one way. There was a strong urge to leave France. I was spreadsheeting public deficit over 40 years and I was ... you can and put whomever in power and they're still running a deficit year after year for 40 years. So just no way this is sustainable. It's not a good environment for entrepreneurship and to raise kids. So I'm out of here. I love French culture and the food and the landscapes and the architecture. It's great to go on vacation. It might be a good place to retire. For me, it was not the like to raise a family and have an active life.
Olivier Travers (00:07:21):
So we wanted to get out of France and originally went to Portugal, where it fit my motto, which was more send, less taxes. So check two boxes in one move. But then most of my business was in the US where I was eight hours ahead of the US for one, and number two, at that time, the Euro was really getting expensive relative to the dollar. So even in a relatively local area such as Portugal, I could only stretch my income so far in terms of actual purchasing power. Also, there was a kind of real estate bubble and we wanted to buy a house. So planets were not aligned for us to stay long term in Portugal, even though we like the place.
Olivier Travers (00:08:02):
So it was okay, where do we move that? We get closer to the US. And first we consider moving to the US itself. We looked at Austin, Texas fairly closely. But if you're not a student, if you don't have a big company sponsoring, et cetera, US immigration is not that easy. In my case, I looked at E5 visa where I had to put some money on the line where I was not sure I would be able to stay long term regardless of the investment, so it was. This is a lot of risk they're asking me to take, can I get the benefit of being closer to the US and having a better exchange rate without moving to the US? So we looked at the entire Americas from Canada down to Chile. And Canada was too cold. Mexico already had a drug war.
Rob Collie (00:08:47):
Oh, did you hear that? He said that. Already had a drug war. We need to go someplace where we can start a drug war. We don't want to compete.
Olivier Travers (00:08:55):
Why compete if you're going to smuggle? Be a leader. You saw right through me.
Rob Collie (00:09:00):
Yeah. I just watched three seasons of why moving to Mexico might not have been the move at the time. Yep.
Olivier Travers (00:09:05):
And I've done a couple data projects with Mexicans and those were the most lovely, easy to work with, serious people I've I've worked with. And I understand from talking with them that the security situation is really in certain states. It's not the whole country. And Mexico is a large, fairly populated federal country, so it's not all over the place. But you have places where it's pretty much a war zone, not an improvement from Europe.
Olivier Travers (00:09:30):
And you could say to some extent that's the case ... with variations, but for lot of Central and South America. We looked at Brazil. There was affinity with that from Portugal, but Brazil has European bureaucracy with third world efficiency. So not a great mix. Even though we love Brazilian culture like sports, my wife practices, [inaudible 00:09:50] I practice Brazilian jujitsu. We have Brazilian friends. They themselves, when they can't move to the US or other places, a lot of the time. The security situation in Brazil, not middle class suburb America. So we ended up with Uruguay and Chile on the short list. And Chile at the time had better internet access than Uruguay, so that sealed the deal for us.
Rob Collie (00:10:14):
This is the most deliberate journey of all time. I love it.
Olivier Travers (00:10:17):
For something random, right? So yeah, there was a spreadsheet, there was banking, advisory notes and cannabis reports and whatnot. And then talking to people, trying to get a bit of the real deal as well. But then you end up really discovering things when you live there, it's always different from what they tell you. But yeah, we're still there. So far, it's worked out pretty well for us.
Thomas LaRock (00:10:38):
So I have a quick question on all of that. Wonderful journey, by the way, and I love the thought process. Now, you were working on ... you said you were tracking deficit and GDP, and you were looking at the 40 year history, and I'm guessing you built a bit of a prediction as to where things would be. So after 18 years, how's that trend line? Has it continued in the direction that you looked at 18 years ago?
Olivier Travers (00:11:03):
I'm in the political dynamic where you can have left wing, right wing, and the mix, the combination of both between executive and parliament. It stays the same. It's the same course that adjusts the margin to slightly have less deficit. But there's no structural changes that can really change the course for good.
Olivier Travers (00:11:24):
I think the numbers are slightly worse than I thought. I thought some countries would've gotten out of the Euro, not just the European union, like what happened with Brexit. Actually in my forecast, Italy, would've gotten out about eight, 10 years ago and that's not happen yet. And they pull out all the stops with Greece, with the whole whatever it takes policy where we have magic money now.
Olivier Travers (00:11:46):
But the fed does do the same in the US. And the Bank of Japan was a pioneer of creating fake money by their trillions of dollars. So now everybody has funny magic money. For me, the way I look at it is like a road runner who doesn't know he's up in the air and should fall until he looks to the ground and then reality catches up. So how long can we run up in the air? I don't know. Funny money works until I guess it doesn't. Right now, we are having inflation like we haven't had in 40 years, so I'm guessing maybe not forever. But for sure the macro forecast was fairly good, fairly accurate, but the political ... because I would say that what Central Banks do right now is more policy than pure economics was no, I didn't see that. I didn't think they would just unleash free money. It's not even truckloads. I mean, there's no vehicle to hold all the streams of dollars at this point.
Rob Collie (00:12:35):
Okay. So I had no idea we're going to be talking about this, but I love it. So I have to continue along Tom's line of question. I have to jump in here and oh so gently ask you, do you perceive any irony in escaping from the printing fiat regime of the average Western government, such as France, to the relative safety of South America. You know what's going on over in Argentina, right? And are you familiar with the history of Chile?
Olivier Travers (00:13:08):
Pick your poison. Right now we have elections coming in on Sunday, presidential elections, and I'm waiting for the result to come out with trepidation because I'm okay with one result. Sophie is my wife. Where do we go next in the next two, three years? And I've done a bit of business in Argentina, a beautiful country, great food, great people, but you don't want to live there. You don't want to live where there's 40, 50, 100% inflation. It's insane. Chile on the macro perspective was much more stable. It had a primary surplus until a few years ago, but now the demographics are catching up. They've been a bit less responsible. The difficulty for countries like that is they need to invest more, but they don't necessarily have the human capital to know how to invest responsibly and in a way that's going to have an actual multiplicative effect.
Olivier Travers (00:13:54):
So where they look at the first world with envy and think they can get there, but how do you bootstrap that when you don't really have that culture yet? Even just personal discipline ... I mean, you, you're not going to become German overnight. So you can say, "I want to copy and pay something from Denmark or Sweden," but the discipline of the day-to-day interaction and sticking to deadlines and saying what you will, say and doing that then, it's a different culture.
Olivier Travers (00:14:21):
There is an irony to that. Japan has a messed up economics, but somehow they're sort of spurted for two decades of being flat, but not completely [inaudible 00:14:32] either, who's really performing well these days it's hard to pin down a country that is going to have some sort of imbalance somewhere in their numbers, metrics, policies.
Rob Collie (00:14:41):
Two stories that seem very relevant here. The first one, I don't know if it's true. It's anecdotal. It's a legend perhaps. There's a story about this guy in mid-1930s Europe who saw it all coming, saw the conflagration, saw that it was all going to burn again, maybe worse, and knew. And so did his homework, didn't have the internet, did his homework and said, "We've got to get out of here. We got to get out of the way of this." So packed up and moved his family to the other side of the world in a place that would never have had any of these problems, an island in the Pacific called Guadalcanal.
Olivier Travers (00:15:18):
Yeah, it's ... or you could ... I'll go to Hawaii. I'll just surf. For five years, I'll just sit another one out. What can happen? Nothing can happen, right? So no, it's really hard.
Rob Collie (00:15:32):
Yeah. Didn't see in his research the staring match going on between the United States and Japan over resources and embargoes and things like that.
Olivier Travers (00:15:40):
I don't know that it's going to be a better outcome. I will retain some sense of personal agency and free will that I think I was deprived of in my home country. And some other people will say, "Well, France has a great safety net and whatnot." And if that's what they like, then great. I'm more of a libertarian. I'll make my own life and get the benefit and also the drawback of my own decisions and mistakes.
Rob Collie (00:16:04):
So the other story is my wife and I went to Israel on business nine years ago and all the prices in Israel on all the menus and everything have the letters N.I.S afterwards, N period, I period, S after it, where the dollar sign would go, where the number of euros, not in front of the number, but after the number.
Rob Collie (00:16:25):
And eventually I had to go look this up. It's the new Israeli shekel. Not the old shekel, the new shekel, which was issued in the 80s, the 1980s. So this is ... in many ways we think Israel has much, much, much more in common with the west than most other regions of the world.
Rob Collie (00:16:42):
And in the 1980s ... and actually my friends at Microsoft who grew up there told me that there was a moment in time when their parents went down to the bank and paid off their mortgage with a handful of change out of their pocket because of this runaway inflation, that was eventually ... they just redenominated the shekel. The new shekel was worth 10,000 or a hundred thousand of the old ones. And so people started getting paid in the new Israeli shekel. So now they were getting paid essentially like a hundred thousand times as much based on what their previous debts were denominated in, which was the old shekel. And they go down and they pay off their house.
Rob Collie (00:17:20):
And Israel is in a tough spot, geopolitically. The whole borders thing ... we can talk about the borders and who's allowed to own land on the border. That gets very contentious pretty quickly. And they had experienced runaway inflation in the 1980s, while we were all alive and paying attention, and they didn't fall off the planet.
Rob Collie (00:17:39):
So I'm with you. I've spent long periods of my life, very, very, very concerned about these sorts of things, and at the same time, slowly coming around to also tempering my concerns. It's amazing the things that human society seems to be able to survive, even when it seems like there's just no way that it could, right? A six order of magnitude or five order of magnitude revaluing of your currency to essentially catch up against runaway inflation, you would expect utter collapse. And if you had enemies, they would overrun you at that moment.
Olivier Travers (00:18:13):
It's easy to overstate ... economists have forecasted a nine of the past three crises. So the old joke where you can't live and be consumed by worry all the time when you there, and there's balancing elements. That said, last time, you also had high inflation in the West. Not to that extent that the US felt compelled to issue the new dollar, but [inaudible 00:18:35] they could, when a house used to cost five or 10 grand, and now it's $500,000. You have a new dollar by a factor of a thousand right there between the 50s and now.
Rob Collie (00:18:44):
I agree. I think the difference here is in the United States is that we don't have to redenominate. We just print it to the new level.
Olivier Travers (00:18:50):
It's the privilege of being the reserve currency of the world. And China is trying to balance that and is not catching fire. The Euro is a fraction of the dollar in terms of trade.
Rob Collie (00:18:59):
So China actually is catching fire at the moment in the way that you don't typically hope for.
Rob Collie (00:19:04):
Yeah. So reserve currency, this is a phrase that I almost never hear come out of an American's mouth.
Olivier Travers (00:19:09):
Yeah. Because it's like you're fish swimming in water. You don't know that since all around you they have that benefit.
Rob Collie (00:19:14):
Americans don't know what a reserve currency is.
Olivier Travers (00:19:17):
The other countries need to have dollars.
Rob Collie (00:19:19):
You've got to be a real weirdo. To be an American ... Whenever I'm on an international flight and I'm sitting next to someone who's not an American, I lean over and say, "Hey, do you know what a reserve currency is?" Nine out of 10 times, they do.
Olivier Travers (00:19:30):
Well, if you go to Argentina, that's really ... everybody needs to be somewhat of an expert on macro economy, because for them, inflation is like you're making daily spending decisions based on these things. Anywhere in south America, really, everybody will know the exchange rate with the dollar. Even in Chile, the Chile is not dollarized.
Olivier Travers (00:19:48):
The dollar is used a way to express sums of money, because Spanish doesn't really have a word for billions, so you have to say a thousand millions and then you have thousands of thousands of millions of pesos. That's a bit ridiculous. So large sums of money, they tend to speak in dollars, but not because that's actually handled in dollars, just as a shortcut. And you know the exchange rate with the dollar, because if you're going to buy with just [inaudible 00:20:10] or what. But you have countries in South America which are dollarized otherwise informally. Like in Argentina, the dollar is really what holds value against the peso, which is a complete joke. So people have to have that awareness in their daily life, even if they're not in the international trade business themselves. It's a different outlook.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:31):
I love how this podcast cast has become a discussion on international and monetary policy. And I'm sure the listeners are just going to enjoy this pivot if you will for the next hour.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:43):
I wanted to mention this documentary I saw years ago called the Ascent of Money. I don't know if either of you have seen it or heard about it.
Olivier Travers (00:20:51):
Yeah. The one in Ferguson. Actually watched that with my son a few months ago.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:54):
So it's brilliant, and I would recommend anybody listening that hasn't seen it should probably watch it as well. I think it's worth the time.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:01):
But the other thing, more importantly, is for a Frenchman to be criticizing how numbers are done in a different language. You, sir are from the land of four 20s because you don't have a word for 80.
Olivier Travers (00:21:17):
That's true. Wait until you hear about 90. That's four 20 10 plus 1. 91. [foreign language 00:21:25] Four 20 11.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:27):
I just had to mention that. Wow. Yeah. He's criticizing Spanish.
Olivier Travers (00:21:32):
That's the French origins for you.
Rob Collie (00:21:34):
We just finished recording a podcast with Lars Schreiber, who's German. We were joking about the way Germans make words is they just take a sentence and take all the spaces out and call it a word, right? It turns out that the French looked over the border and went, "Oh no, uh-uh (negative). Oh, you're not going to run unopposed. We're going to do this with our numbers." Why don't we just count to 91? As we count out loud, that becomes the word for 91. It's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. I wonder if this has some weird side effects. In France, no one ever wants to price any at 80. They're just like, "No, just make it 79."
Olivier Travers (00:22:10):
When you say it in French, you don't think about the root what you're saying. It's just a word. It's just a sound. You're not breaking down, oh, I'm actually saying four multiplied by 20. You're just saying [foreign language 00:22:22] and that's it.
Rob Collie (00:22:22):
Tom, did this documentary explain to you what a reserve currency is?
Thomas LaRock (00:22:26):
I don't remember that, but I fascinated with how money moves and flows around the world. And when you start to understand even why some countries have wealth for the past few centuries and that wealth could have been elsewhere had a couple of bankers in London, decided to fund France instead of England, it's really amazing when you just see and track the wealth over hundreds of years, and now understanding how and why China is basically such an economic power. And I think the important lesson is knowing that none of this is permanent. The money flows in, and then the money flows out.
Rob Collie (00:23:08):
Well, let me finish springing my slow motion trap. Luke, Tom, as American citizens, do you know what a reserve currency is?
Thomas LaRock (00:23:18):
Oh, that's what the federal reserve has.
Rob Collie (00:23:22):
The world has had a reserve currency for a very, very long time. It wasn't always what it is today.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:28):
Are you going to say it's being backed by gold?
Rob Collie (00:23:30):
Similar. Basically the reserve currency ... I'm going to explain it, and then Olivier can explain it for real. When it comes to reserve currencies, I'm like a slightly improved American. Basically, it's the currency in which international trade can be safely denominated at all times.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:47):
So Bitcoin?
Rob Collie (00:23:48):
That's actually the danger. And I've got a cryptocurrency expert themed lined up for soon as football season's over. We're going to go after it. We'll come back to that later. But if you're in France ... let's say you're pre-Euro France, and you want to buy something on the international market. You're a company and you need to get supplies from Brazil. You go to Brazil and say, "Here, I'll pay you so many Francs for your steel or whatever." And they go, "What am I going to do with Francs? Can't you pay me in my local currency?" And you go, "Oh, come on. I don't have any of that." But it turns out if you pay in dollars, everyone's happy.
Olivier Travers (00:24:33):
It's just the depth of the currency market so you have liquidity. You have almost no spread. Otherwise, if you want to trade in your own currency and there's ... you're going to be stuck. You're going to ask for a huge spread if there's liquidity all. So at some point, Russia, for instance, was non-convertible. They were trading. I'll sell you weapons for oil or timber or whatnot because the currency itself doesn't have liquidity, ergo, it's hard to access its value, because it could be worth double or half of it next month. You're stuck with it.
Rob Collie (00:25:03):
If you accept a large quantity of Francs, it's going to take you a little while to resell those. Now you have to go back to the international market and sell those Francs and trade them in for your own currency to use it again at home, right? First of all, it's a hassle to go sell those Francs, right? It's not a lot of fun. By the time you're done offloading them, Olivier's right. It might be worth much less. There's a huge risk there. It's really, really crazy. So because the dollar is the world's reserve currency, one of the side effects of all of this trade being denominated in dollars is that everyone holds dollars.
Olivier Travers (00:25:38):
Our currency, your problem.
Rob Collie (00:25:40):
Every country on the world is holding onto large supplies of dollars so that they can go buy things on the international market, but also because they just sold a bunch of things on the international market. Exactly. So when the United States dilutes its currency, the world pays the depreciation. Of course, when the dollar loses its value, American savings accounts also lose value, but the rest of the world loses it too. And so it's much, much, much safer, it's much easier, this tremendous privilege that the United States has that no single American citizen seems to be aware of. So all these things that are trying to attack and displace the dollar as the reserve currency, this is the single greatest threat to current American way of life and current American national security, all of that, is if we'd lost that privilege, we'd actually have to play fair.
Olivier Travers (00:26:33):
You'd have to pay for the real price for things. You'd also be exposed to fluctuations that right now everyone else is exposed to. So if the dollar goes up and down, it's everybody else's currency exchange risk. American companies see that when they have to [inaudible 00:26:47] earnings from say the Eurozone and then, well, we grew by 20% in Euro, but Euro gained 10%, so in the end it was just plus 10% in dollars and whatnot, you'll see that in SCC filings ... American companies have such a huge local market, it's not as material to say for the average German company, which is 70% expert-driven, so where they need to control that so much more, because it affects their balance sheet and their real operating income every year. An American company could be, well, it's just extra money. We leave it abroad for tax reasons and whatnot, but we can be happy with 80% of our revenue in the US, such a huge consumer market, huge B2B market. What you need other countries for is gravy.
Rob Collie (00:27:31):
Now where things get a little hazy, where you end up in the realm of conspiracy theories that might be true, but also might not be, I've read things like the real reason that Saddam Hussein got taken out the second time around? This is the conspiracy theory. Okay? The real reason is, is that he tried to sell oil in a currency other than dollars. So the story goes, whenever you try to sell oil for something other than dollars, if you don't have nukes, you don't exist anymore.
Olivier Travers (00:28:04):
Well, without those extremes, you see how ... for instance, how China is pressuring any country that says we're going to recognize Taiwan or have dealings with Taiwan, is going to be under huge pressure. A mix of incentives, like they will bribe countries, Jamaica or whatnot, Caribbean islands that have sometimes recognized Taiwan as a sort of defacto country. "Oh, well, if you'll get a $2 billion investment if you stop doing that." I think they we're doing that with a small European country this week, play more of the stick as opposed to the carrot policy of, well, bad things are going to start to happen to you if you don't stop your shenanigans, because of China. So I don't know how all, all this relates to data, but it is very data-driven.
Rob Collie (00:28:46):
This is the curious mindset that keeps picking at a story to find out what the next level down is. When I got ahold of all of this stuff, probably, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago ... we're going to change gears in a second. But it actually kind of started for me when I was sitting around at Microsoft going, "We have a 40 billion dollar cash hoard ... " this is in the 90s or whatever, right ... as a company. And I asked myself, "Why aren't we splitting that up? There's 15,000 of us here. I don't know. Why don't we get together and just divvy it up," right? And I knew that we weren't going to, but I didn't have the precise reasons why. As I started to pick at that string, slowly over the course of years, it kept leading me into all kinds of new places and everything, and really truly understanding how the financial system works and what it means to be a publicly traded company and all that kind of stuff. And then eventually it led me into all of this stuff.
Rob Collie (00:29:40):
And I kind of came around to the conclusion that, like you said, the economists, the famous economists either don't know anything or are deliberately ignorant to keep the music going, and everything is so damn complicated that you end up trying to avoid, try to play it, try to surf it, and you end up in Guadalcanal at the opening of World World II.
Rob Collie (00:30:00):
And so I went this long, long, long, global journey in my mind anyway, there and back again, Bilbo Baggins, right? And all I did was just come back to where I am today and go, "Okay, so what are we going to do today with the people that I know directly? How are we going to build a good business?" And all of that. But I had to go on that long, protracted journey.
Rob Collie (00:30:24):
And if you met me at various points along that journey, you would've discovered me in varying degrees of radicalism in a way. "Because you don't really know how things work. Let me tell you how things really work." And I think I know how things work now better than I ever did on that previous points on the journey. But I'm kind of more moderate now about it because everyone's on the take, including us.
Olivier Travers (00:30:47):
Right. I think there's a bunch of red pills. A single red pill doesn't unlock the whole thing. So you think you understand it and then wait, you're telling me LIBOR rates that underpin any mortgage in the world, or almost, you're telling me that those currency exchange rate that we're talking are rigged? And that's not a conspiracy theory. There's been criminal charges on the biggest markets in the world.
Rob Collie (00:31:12):
Brutal fines have been levied that were equivalent to 0.001% of the profit gained by rigging it.
Olivier Travers (00:31:19):
Yeah. So it's hard to get the whole encompassing, oh, I know, I understand, top to bottom, and from the macro ... from the universe down to what happens within a cell perspective at each zoom level, which I guess it goes to what we do with BI, which is how can we drill down from show me the main cash flows of a company down to how much money do we make in North Dakota before it was sold to Canada last week on the red widgets?
Rob Collie (00:31:47):
It's the North American Crimean Peninsula.
Olivier Travers (00:31:50):
Weren't there were plans somewhere in the US history, semi-seriously some president considered invading Canada, or ... ?
Thomas LaRock (00:31:57):
I'm not sure we considered it. But yes, plans for the invasion of Canada did exist.
Rob Collie (00:32:04):
I think I saw this in the South Park movie, right? Isn't that when this happened?
Thomas LaRock (00:32:09):
I don't believe that there was any seriousness about it. I'm sorry. Let's say after the War of 1812. I look at it and to me it's almost like it was busy work. There was somebody in the cabinet at one point and they're like, "Hey, you know what would be great? Give him something to do that we'll keep him busy. Tell him we're looking to invade Canada. Have him drop plans." And he spent two months on it and he came back with everything like, "Oh, that's great. That's great. Now what can we give him to do?" Just to keep him out of the way for a while. That's how I've always thought of it. This wasn't a real project. This was something to just keep somebody else busy.
Olivier Travers (00:32:43):
If you read the Federalist Papers, the state of mind of the founders of the US and of 18th century competition with Spain and the potential war with Spain was a big deal. It was right there in the main list of being able to thwart this huge competitor and a potential enemy 250 years later to Spain. Don't you go there once a week to race bulls or have tapas? How's that a foe?
Rob Collie (00:33:08):
It turns out that the Americans ended up being the perfect engine for warfare over the last few hundred years, right? Tremendous amount of resources, not easy to invade geographically, and a bit of a chip on it shoulder. We were attempting to make that right turn into BI. But we talk about BI a lot on this show and we're going to come back to it. But I saw it in your Twitter bio. Before you even mentioned it, we were going to go there. We're going to turn this into an episode of the Joe Rogan experience.
Olivier Travers (00:33:34):
Three hours?
Rob Collie (00:33:35):
We're going to talk about ...
Olivier Travers (00:33:36):
Mushrooms?
Rob Collie (00:33:37):
Brazilian jujitsu.
Olivier Travers (00:33:38):
Oh yeah, don't get me started.
Rob Collie (00:33:40):
Let's get you started, because we've never talked about Brazilian jujitsu on this show. When did you first get into that?
Olivier Travers (00:33:45):
Well, so I did judo as a kid and teenager a little bit in France. It's like wrestling in Midwest, in the US. It's what you do when you're a kid to bulk me up a little bit, give me confidence, and I did. And then I did other sports, but no wrestling of any sort. And I really needed to get back into shape. And I started getting a bit judo a few years ago. But in the end, when you're middle-aged, something that's really focused on takedowns, and high amplitude at that, is a bit hard on the body, so it's just the recovery.
Olivier Travers (00:34:13):
Brazilian jujitsu does takedown, but is mostly focused on [inaudible 00:34:17] fighting. For people not familiar with it, if you look at MMA UFC fights, when they're on the ground, most of what you see is a combination of wrestling and Brazilian jujitsu. So a dominating position and finding some way to choke out or apply a joint lock on you, shoulder, arm lock, leg lock of any sort. But because it's ... you have less explosion than in judo, because you are on the ground for the most part, it's a bit less harsh on the body. You can train more often.
Olivier Travers (00:34:46):
And yeah, I fell into that rabbit hole about seven years ago, which for me is the fun way to do something that's very physical and a very serious role in one swoop. So when I was young, I could go and work out and bench press. I've lost any interest. If it's not fun, I'm not going to do it. I will go and have a run every two months. That's just not a way to stay in shape. I'm limited by just my recovery time, but I'll do it as often as I can. So I train three, four times a week. And it's never ending, the techniques and the counters. You think you've got it figured out and then, well, but if you move your arm in that way and your head in that way, then you can get out of that position and reverse it. So it is really fun. It's not for everyone, but I find it extremely fun.
Rob Collie (00:35:33):
I've never done it, but I have heard it described over and over again as almost akin to chess in a way, right? There's a physical component to it, obviously. Everything has to be physically expressed. But it is a very cerebral thing. I'm assuming that Chile, you guys use kilograms and not pounds.
Olivier Travers (00:35:49):
Yeah. It's metric system.
Rob Collie (00:35:51):
How many kilograms do you weigh?
Olivier Travers (00:35:53):
I'm about 80. So I think that's 170, 175?
Rob Collie (00:35:56):
178, 175. Okay. So I'm 220. I'm middle-aged, like you. I've never done any organized wrestling or jujitsu. How many seconds does it take you to make me give up?
Olivier Travers (00:36:13):
Do I want to work for it or do I want to throw yourself into the submission?
Rob Collie (00:36:17):
You're competing in a worldwide competition to submit Rob Collie as fast as possible.
Olivier Travers (00:36:22):
Are we starting standing or on the ground?
Rob Collie (00:36:24):
Tell me both ways.
Olivier Travers (00:36:26):
Short of striking, but you don't want me to take you down and you're going to exert your weight and strength.
Rob Collie (00:36:31):
Okay. I'm fighting for my life. You're competing in an Olympic sport where every 10th of a second matters.
Olivier Travers (00:36:37):
40 pounds is nothing to sneeze at. I don't know your overall condition, if you do other sports or whatnot. Do you have any cardio otherwise?
Rob Collie (00:36:44):
I don't know if you have it down there, Orange Theory Fitness. I do that, let's say, three to four times a week. It's high intensity interval training.
Olivier Travers (00:36:52):
Yeah. So you're in good shape. So it might take me a minute, two minutes just for me to protect myself and not put me in a bad position. If it's on the ground and we're chilling, you want to practice Brazilian jujitsu, you want to go into that game, then 20 seconds, 30 seconds. Because your energy ... you'll try to, for instance, [inaudible 00:37:12] you'll try to throw my legs, et cetera. You'll go in a direction. You'll go way too much in that direction, and I'll take your back ... untrained people do sometimes silly ... they don't do jujitsu. So sometimes it puts you back in more of a real fight mode. If you know jujitsu and then you're 220 ... one of my spar partners is 220 and muscular, 220, 28 years old. That's work. Yeah. He makes me work.
Rob Collie (00:37:36):
I don't want to play against him.
Olivier Travers (00:37:40):
You don't want to oversell it. Technique doesn't overcompensate everything. Attributes, it's strength and speed and everything through technique. But if you're a complete newbie and short of strikes, which completely changed the game. So if it's MMA, it's different.
Rob Collie (00:37:55):
I don't have any training in that either, so it wouldn't matter.
Olivier Travers (00:38:00):
I did that a bit, and then I realized I didn't like to get punched in the face. Kneeing other people or elbowing them or punching them is great. But being on the receiving end, I was ... nah, I'm just not going to do that.
Rob Collie (00:38:13):
That's actually surprisingly common, even at the highest levels of these combat sports. There are some people who very clearly are not into being hit.
Olivier Travers (00:38:21):
And especially if you're hit in the head. You're exposed to other risks like CRT, like concussions, et cetera, and it could affect my work. I mean, I got hurt several times last year. I got a displaced rib a little bit. I couldn't sleep well for a week. I got my eye scratched with someone's nail a couple times, and that's really painful. I got tweaked fingers. You get hurt.
Olivier Travers (00:38:43):
But then many of those issues, you can get playing soccer or going on a bike ride with your kids. So it's not like it's the only sport where you can get hurt. You can control to some extent, and also selecting your aspiring partners, gym culture, et cetera. You can control to some extent the level of risk that you're comfortable with. I warned you. Don't get me started.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:04):
I wanted to. I think the secret here is because he's going to be expecting you to do ... or you're going to be doing ... you have to keep him off balance by not doing those things. So I would suggest you just do nothing.
Rob Collie (00:39:17):
You know what I'm going to do?
Thomas LaRock (00:39:18):
Just stand there.
Rob Collie (00:39:19):
I'm going to walk into the ring or the octagon with him and I'm going to immediately go into the crane kick position from Karate Kid. Like as far as I can tell, that is an unbeatable technique.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:30):
You have to do what's unexpected. You have to do things that he's never seen before, and by doing those things, you'll last longer. You ain't going to win, but you could last longer. And now, this is the important thing, is there's an over-under here and there'll be some wagering. And what I need from you is I need to know if this is a sure thing. So I want you to try all of those weird things and let me handle the money side.
Olivier Travers (00:39:54):
The doing nothing is funny actually, because beginners will try that after a couple of weeks of trying too hard, and then they realize, "Everywhere I go is a trap. Oh, there's an arm right there. Oh, he's choking me out. How does that guy have my back when I thought that was winning two seconds ago?" So at some point there's like, "I'm going to try and sit there and see what happens. And then while I'm going to push you, I'll go get mount and you'll get choked in 10 seconds as opposed to 20." So you can scratch that off the list. Doing nothing is not an option.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:26):
See, he's just saying that because he knows that's really the answer. He's throwing you off.
Rob Collie (00:40:31):
The next three months, I'm going to practice rolling into a perfect ball like an Armadillo and just rolling around. There's nothing you can grab a hold of.
Olivier Travers (00:40:38):
My son does that. It was, "Oh, that's my technique. I invented it. I called it The Ball." I'm like, "That's not going to work for long, son."
Rob Collie (00:40:48):
Ah, smart kid, smart kid.
Olivier Travers (00:40:52):
He was very proud of himself. It's funny, my son is a French guy raised in Chile, and somehow default speaks in English. It's like some kids have been raised by wolves, he's been raised by the internet seemingly. So he's like, "Oh, I call it the ball ... " with his. He has a very good American accent. The ball is not a thing. That's not going to work.
Rob Collie (00:41:11):
I just have a real ... it's like a fascination with things that are expressed physically, but that involve technique and end up being just gigantically superior. If I were really rich, a big part of my life would be spent going around just getting absolutely smoked by people in their various fields, right?
Rob Collie (00:41:36):
I remember watching Marshall Faulk the football player and thinking, "Okay, how narrow does the hallway have to be for me to be able to actually get two hand touch on Marshall Faulk if he's trying to get past me? There's a point at which the hallway just wide enough that I'm never going to be able to make contact. His job is to get past me. We're in a hallway. He's still going to get past me. I don't have to tackle him. I just have to touch him." Stuff like that, I'm always fascinated by it. If you make it to Indianapolis, you make it to the States anytime soon, Olivier, or even not, let's film this. It'll be two social media stars, Jake Paul fighting ...
Olivier Travers (00:42:13):
Tyron Woodley. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:42:15):
Right. We'll just use this. Olivier versus Rob. I'll get 15 minutes of training and then you'll just smoke me.
Olivier Travers (00:42:24):
Usually it takes about a year, I would say 12 to 18 months of training, to not have too much trouble with a brand new beginner, except with their linebacker, taking outside professional athletes with a serious body mass. But outside of that, the average newcomer, even if they're lifting, a regular Joe just doesn't stand a chance ... again, outside of striking. Striking has always that one punch, bigger chance you can knock out almost anyone, right? You connect well on the jaw or temple, you could knock out almost anyone. But you'll break your hand in the process.
Rob Collie (00:42:57):
I'm as likely to hurt myself throwing punches. So I'm going to ... no striking. Tom, did you have something there?
Thomas LaRock (00:43:05):
I'm amused that you think you have a chance.
Rob Collie (00:43:06):
Look, I'm betting on me.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:08):
The thing is right now, Rob, what's happening is your mind process thinking about this is you're thinking as if you're still 20 years old, but you have the wisdom of something smarter. You don't think you're a middle-aged man in Indianapolis.
Rob Collie (00:43:23):
No, that's true. That's totally true. That's totally true. I can't move at the same speed. However, I would pick me today over the 20 year old me in a fight. No doubt about it. I would tear up 20 year old me. I am so much thicker, stronger, bigger. I was still filling out when I was 20.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:39):
Now, that's fair. I haven't seen you in the ring. I haven't seen you compete.
Rob Collie (00:43:44):
Well, neither have I.
Rob Collie (00:43:48):
All right. You're in Portugal before you move to Chile. Most of your clients are in the USA at that point. You need a time zone change above all else, and maintaining the sunshine. I understand these are important KPIs. And that was what year, roughly?
Olivier Travers (00:44:04):
2007.
Rob Collie (00:44:05):
Okay. 2007. So let that sink in, dear audience. There was no Power BI. There was no Power Pivot. So what were you doing? I glanced through your blog articles and I was seeing all kinds of things that they're just general technical stuff. How'd you define yourself as a professional? What was your primary marketable skill?
Olivier Travers (00:44:25):
Right. So at the time, I had a couple ventures where I was involved in an operational capacity, more than ... I went back and forth with consulting. So I had for a while a gig where I was managing a series of B2B blogs, trade publications, but on the web in newsletters. So I focused on that for eight years or so, something like that.
Olivier Travers (00:44:46):
So in that case, I was more the general manager and that was more of a content business. I applied data to running the business. I had my dashboard for sales and finance. And also as a publication ... actually I contacted you when you were about ... what was it, Pivot Stream? 10 years ago. Because where I was trying to get a retail trade publication out the ground, and they were already retail publications, magazines, and I wanted to something that was data-driven. And I saw Power Pivot, but I was ... I need something that is hosted that I can embed in my own website.
Olivier Travers (00:45:18):
And then I was trying to have a same store sale tracker going on. I wanted to have something that was across retailers with Walmart and Target saying, "Well, here's the store to store comparison where you don't take growth in terms of numbers of stores into the equation." You're looking at the existing base and you see whether business is growing pretty much organically.
Olivier Travers (00:45:38):
So it's a metric that some investment bankers will try to compute. And you see some numbers sometimes, but there was no real dashboard of same store sales. I was trying to build that out, for instance. So that's one area where I was trying when ... now we are talking 2010, 2011, where I wanted to have pivot tables on the web for subscription services or stuff like that. And I don't think the technology was quite there yet at that time. So we ended up having one off spreadsheets, more of an ad hoc, a bit podunk, to be honest, but a handcrafted approach to that.
Rob Collie (00:46:11):
Artisanal.
Olivier Travers (00:46:13):
Very artisanal. And that was part of the problem. I never made that scale where it became a sustainable long term business. So when ad sales creator, post-2007, 2008, things became faster. We tried to increase content sales subscription and sort of made do for a while. But in the end, that was not enough. So I went back to consulting, leveraging my operational skills, and I would say my breadth of experience, as I think now it's apparent from the various countries, various businesses, industries, languages.
Olivier Travers (00:46:44):
I'm a specialist in generalities. I'm not the best at anything really, except maybe being good at a wide variety of things. So what I'm good at, I would say, is from that background is diving in something where I'll get to understand maybe the key drivers for your business in your industry, in your country, whatever that is, fairly quickly. So the business and the acumen, I would describe that, generally speaking, drives and then the technology follows. So yeah, Power BI is a good tool. We'll use Power BI, but we can use other tools as well. I don't to think of myself as a one tool guy. I think that's not good job security. And also then you become the hammer that is only seeing the nails everywhere. I don't think that's good service for clients.
Rob Collie (00:47:24):
Go back to the jujitsu metaphor. You need all the tools so that you can show those beginners that there's no escape, no matter what they do.
Olivier Travers (00:47:32):
In this case, it's not as antagonistic with our clients. You try to make that more of a corporation, a partnership, but yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:39):
The opponent is the problem. The problem tries to wiggle out this way. "No, no. Uh-uh (negative). Submission. Arm bar". So do you remember what it was, or how you even discovered Power Pivot as early as you did? Because you're right. We were in touch back in my Pivot Stream days, which ended in 2013. So that puts you in the first 0.000001% awareness worldwide of the existence of Dax, the existence of the verte pack engine, [inaudible 00:48:10] whatever was behind Power Pivot. You'll never randomly bump into someone in your life that discovered it before you. You might be at a conference or something. In the random world, you will always be number one to have discovered it.
Olivier Travers (00:48:24):
So a couple ways to look at it. First off, I used Excel from when I was in business school. I had a side gig with a local computing PC assembly company. And the CEO of that company hired me on the side to create a monthly price striker, a dashboard of all the competitions. So I was spending my Saturdays reading the monthly PC shopper magazines and typing in the data and charting specs and this hard drive and that monitor and that much ram. Then here's the graph of everywhere, and you're here. My first dashboard was 30 years ago. That was Excel. And I also did a bit of sales for that guy. At the time, I sold 17 or 18 286 PCs to my business school. So I went to the IT of my business school like, "I want to sell you computers." They're like, "Okay, what's your quote?"
Olivier Travers (00:49:12):
Then I worked at Microsoft in the mid-90s and that was obviously a tool where there was a lot of use. There was a data warehouse for sales numbers called MS Sales, very creatively, as you would expect from Microsoft. And I would go and create those awesome pivot tables. And I would macros refreshing them from that data warehouse in I think '97. And I would show that to my peers and colleagues and they went, "How do you do that? Where is that even coming from?" I was, "Let me show you."
Olivier Travers (00:49:39):
I was in charge of larger country sellers, the companies selling to the select at the time, licensing mass deals. And I was able to go and meet the CEOs and CFOs of those resellers, partners of Microsoft saying, "Well, here's exactly how much you're selling," in Francs at the time, and this product line against that type of license in that region. So we had already a fairly good breakdown. So it was all pivot tables. So I wanted ... for the publication business I was telling you about, I wanted to have pivots, but for the web. And before that, maybe there was something for SharePoint I don't quite remember.
Rob Collie (00:50:13):
Yeah. Excel Services.
Olivier Travers (00:50:15):
Yeah. There was a startup ... I don't remember the name, that that's something that ... like the first pivot technology I saw, maybe a year or two, and they were purchased by whomever and they sort of killed it. I was on the lookout from the 90S for a pivot on the web. And then it took forever to materialize into something that is now credible without blowing in your face. Took 10, 15 years to really happen, I think.
Olivier Travers (00:50:40):
Power BI now is mature. I looked at Power BI desktop designer. It was not [inaudible 00:50:45] was not called Power BI Desktop, but in 2015 ... I was, "This is complete garbage." I was playing with Tableau at the time. I blogged about it, saying, "Microsoft has the work cut out for them," because it was buggy. The visuals were fairly crappy. But you could see the intent was better than the whole Silverlight Power View fiasco, which was ... I could have told you that was a technical dead end. What committee came up with that architecture?
Rob Collie (00:51:08):
Oh, I know.
Olivier Travers (00:51:11):
You know where the [crosstalk 00:51:12] is? I buried it.
Rob Collie (00:51:12):
Yeah, but the people that were involved in that, they also have very, very selectively short memories. Not my department, mm-mm (negative).
Thomas LaRock (00:51:20):
Are you saying somebody kicked Mr. Silverlight?
Rob Collie (00:51:23):
I saw a tweet today ... Olivier, we'll give you a little background here. This is a National Football League coach, urban Meyer. The funny thing about NFL coaches' contracts is that they're almost always guaranteed. Five years, 7 million dollars a year, and if I fire you, you get the rest of the money. It's just an incredibly perverse incentive.
Olivier Travers (00:51:46):
Well, I was about to say, what are my incentives?
Rob Collie (00:51:46):
Yeah. It just turns out that you rely on the demographic being so competitive that they don't want to go out on their shield. That's not how they want to go. And I think Urban decided very early in his tenure with the Jaguars this year that, nah, I'm just going to keep being awful, like just really awful until they have to fire me. And I saw a tweet today that said ... it didn't even mention who it was about. You didn't have to. Everyone knew. It said, "We just witnessed a masterclass in stealing tens of millions of dollars in plain sight."
Olivier Travers (00:52:19):
Yeah. Silverlight was really that architectural ... let's compete with the product that's going to be phase out by the entire market in two years. Yes. I'm saying that a bit with hindsight regarding the fate of Flash. But really Web 2.0 was already well established. Dynamic HTML was already a thing. What are you doing? What is this Runtime? The .net ... I mean, it was like architecture from the mid-2000s, 2005, that they tried to pursue eight years later that it made no sense. Why not ActiveX while we were at it, right?
Rob Collie (00:52:50):
I mean, at least we'd been there. Well, not to go there again, I think. But it is weird. In 2014, 2015, I was visiting Shishir Mehrotra, who we've had on the show, when they were working on their startup. It's now called Coda. And they were writing the whole thing from the ground up, this entire office suite application, writing the whole in JavaScript from the ground up. And I was sitting there just scratching my head. JavaScript. JavaScript? Really? The thing that makes the web control flash in HTML? The thing that even is downstream from the server code in the web apps and web pages today? Yeah. It's come a long way. It's the new C++.
Olivier Travers (00:53:29):
Yeah, I remember seeing the first cross-browser drag and drop in some financial web app 15, 16 years ago. And I was, "Huh." I liked to see it because I was doing some web coding and I had developers working with me and that was ... and now you're thinking drag and drop and all those affordances that you have on the desktop. We expect them by and large to have them in the web browser, right? But go back 10, 15 years ago, that was edge demos, not something that you would expect to really work, the whole cross-browser thing. As long as Internet Explorer was around, that was a big deal. Now everything is Chromium, that's, to a large extent, not an issue anymore.
Rob Collie (00:54:05):
We just had another wordagami, affordances. I remember when I was first introduced to that word five years in my Microsoft career. And it was new to all of us. Oh, a new way to say capability or type of UI. It was like an all purpose word that sounded cool. I think it had about an 18 month lifespan at Microsoft. We burned through it pretty quickly. But it is a good word.
Olivier Travers (00:54:25):
I think it's a bit more specific than functionality because it's about the way that it responds. So for me, it's almost something that's tactile, click and I see that it feels like the button can be pressed. If you look at the affordances in a game, any game where you interact with 3D objects, like things magnet and click and there's noise and there's boom, and you see that things connect or not.
Olivier Travers (00:54:47):
Why do we have business applications that feel like they're mainframe screens from the 70s? Why don't you apply what's done in the gaming world where it's much more like tactile almost? It's virtual, but you feel like it's boom, it's clicking. You feel like a physical emulation of a physical mechanism on screen and reinforced with haptic reactions on your phone, made data entry possible. And if you don't have the haptic feedback, it doesn't quite work to type on a smartphone. Right? That's what I think the breakthrough with the iPhone.
Olivier Travers (00:55:19):
Now, apply that to those dead UIs in business software. Have you looked at what's been going on in gaming for at least 20 years? I feel everything in terms of what we accept as adequate performance is laughable in the business world. You have a whole generation of managers that go 120 FPS or 240, just because oh, 60 is not quite ... we're coming from a world where TV is worth 24 Hertz, 24 images per second. Now you're pushing 120, 240, and you're locking that frequency. And then we're there waiting for five seconds for a screen to refresh. And you have a blank screen in between. What is this? I want to send every enterprise software developer working for a gaming studio and learn what's real acceptable frontend performance and come back and lock us out of the ... like I feel we have something that's shinier and better than it used to, but only marginally. There's a leap when you go into a game, and boom.
Olivier Travers (00:56:15):
I have three screens. The main one is a 49 ultra-wide. And I have two 27 on top, so I can feel like a trader, even though I don't trade anything. But play a more ... say a driving game on a screen like that, it's amazing. And then you go back to Teams and you're like, okay, how do you get that level of streaming? I would say bottlenecks. Don't get me started on downloading data from SharePoint. Say you're, oh, five megabits per second. Wow. Welcome to, I guess, 2002 broadband.
Rob Collie (00:56:45):
Oh, well SharePoint, it's running a lot of complex garbage SQL queries to ... let's not go there. So we should send like the CarMax that made Doom ... we should send them to be technical fellows on the intelligence platform at Microsoft, bring some of that quality and response time and production value discipline.
Olivier Travers (00:57:03):
Yeah. I think it's the expectations. We've just grown accustomed to, well, if you wait two seconds and nothing happens, that's good. That's fast. If you play a competitive P2P, player against player game online ... I think you played World of Warcraft. I used to be sort of semi-hardcore casual 15 years ago.
Rob Collie (00:57:23):
Yeah. Me too. I haven't played World of Warcraft in about, I don't know, five hours. I was on earlier. Just doing some auction house work, folks, I wasn't ...
Olivier Travers (00:57:31):
Yeah. I've done that. I've done the arbitrage.
Rob Collie (00:57:35):
I know you have.
Olivier Travers (00:57:36):
You know I have, right? And so ... and I have that transparency.
Rob Collie (00:57:43):
Have you done any cross-server arbitrage?
Olivier Travers (00:57:45):
I've done cross-faction where you swam for 20 minutes to get to the neutral auction bay in Booty Bay or whatever, and then you could buy, but you had to make sure that people were not scamming your trades because you had to go on the open auction. I made 67 gold in two months. That was the game.
Rob Collie (00:58:02):
Just making the gold, right? In fact, I'm trying to give the gold that I'm making away to my friends and they're like, "I don't want to have to pay it back." I'm like, "You don't understand, this is the game."
Olivier Travers (00:58:11):
I'm hitting the limit. I'm hitting the account limit. So anyway in those games, a hundred milliseconds, 200 milliseconds ... 200 milliseconds is about human eye to finger reaction time, more or less. It increases a bit with age. But you know how that's the difference? We're talking a fifth of a second. You're going to perceive it. But then we accept we're saying three seconds is fast. That's an order of magnitude slower than it should be for people not to start having their ... your brain is already starting to wonder and open other tabs. Power Query, I love Power Query as a tool, but it's impossible to be in zone with Power Query. You cannot be productive in the sense of I'm in a task and that's all I do and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. For me, I can't just be there waiting for the next step to refresh because I changed an earlier step and all the evaluation to go on for 30 seconds ... it just doesn't work for me.
Rob Collie (00:59:01):
I feel your pain. You should see our Power BI report that measures are advertising effectiveness, connects to an Azure data warehouse. And the way that it's structured is the way that Google, for instance gives us data. It's just tremendous overkill. So it ends up with you kick off a Power Query, anything that triggers the refresh preview, go get a cup of coffee.
Olivier Travers (00:59:22):
Yeah, exactly. So you have to start computing, is it worth it for me to create a view that is just a thousand rows that I'm going to develop all the ETL from? Can I build that to the client? Is it fair? Is it worth it? And you're like, "No, I won't do it," unless that's really marque project that you're going to keep making and adding to. But oftentimes it's not worth it and you're just there frustrated that it's not faster.
Rob Collie (00:59:45):
And of course, with those sub views, those sample data sets that you would use to develop against, part of the problem is that you still need to validate that your answers are correct. And you can't validate artificial numbers in any way.
Olivier Travers (00:59:57):
Yeah. Because it kills your profiling. So then if you are trying to find exceptions, you can't do that with just a thousand random views either. So yeah, that's an issue.
Rob Collie (01:00:06):
Nope. Nope, nope, Nope. Tom's going to fix all this for us as he learns Power Query over the holidays.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:12):
Oh, is that what I'm doing?
Rob Collie (01:00:13):
Oh yeah. You're going to splice that together with SQL, and you're going to develop a school of operating with Power Query and SQL that will be called The LaRock School. You know how Matt Allington named my way of laying out tables in the Schema view of Power BI the Collie method? If I can have something named after me like that for just arranging things in two rows, I think you can actually contribute something of far greater value to the world and we will make sure that the name sticks.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:44):
Yeah. I'm good.
Rob Collie (01:00:47):
Such disappointment.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:48):
Well, it's Raw Data by P3, not by LaRock. So ...
Rob Collie (01:00:53):
Listen, this is a point in time, Tom. This is the pre-LaRockian method, the pre-LaRock School era.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:00):
True, because it could be just Power Query all the time.
Rob Collie (01:01:03):
Well, Power Query and SQL, the two of them together.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:06):
Together.
Olivier Travers (01:01:07):
Oh, I see a query folding winter of love for you.
Rob Collie (01:01:12):
I agree. Until Tom is throwing query folding around like the word affordance ...
Thomas LaRock (01:01:17):
There's so much out there yet for me to learn.
Rob Collie (01:01:22):
Ich bin ein query folder.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:24):
There's so much and it can be hard for me to have focus on tackling any one thing.
Rob Collie (01:01:33):
I totally get it. That's why I'm here for you.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:35):
So is Power Query a thing for me right now? You know what? I don't know
Rob Collie (01:01:41):
Top of the stack.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:41):
I don't know.
Rob Collie (01:01:41):
You owe it to yourself, to the world.
Olivier Travers (01:01:43):
Here's a third thing that I did with query folding that I'm told, "Oh no, you should not do that," but I think the rationale for not doing that was a bit being a purist, is you can look at the SQL generated by our query underneath. You get the query. So I thought, well, do the ETL there and it's a defacto SQL generator, and then lift that query and create a view with that. Do you think that's really bad because it's poor SQL that it writes? Or do you think that's brilliant?
Thomas LaRock (01:02:10):
I won't say poor because I'm not sure it's that good.
Rob Collie (01:02:12):
Here's your in. You're a DBA by trade. You like to complain about things. You like to criticize, right? That's your people.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:18):
Even if I go into Power Query and I, like Olivier said, we can look at the SQL that gets generated, and I'm certain it's not optimal. But I'm also certain I have no idea if it would be even possible to have a machine generate optimal code. And on top of that, what I'll say is going forward, the engines are going to be smarter and smarter and they're going to be able to take that code at some point, make a recommendation.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:47):
For example, I happen to work for a company who can already do this for you, right? We can look at what you're doing and we can make suggestions as to how to optimize certain queries. So that already exists. I imagine that'll get baked into the engines at some point and things get better for everyone.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:04):
But if I could do it in a way that would be helpful, but I don't know enough about how it actually gets generated. So I wouldn't know enough to say, "Hey Microsoft, instead of doing it this way, you should probably do it this way." But yeah, if I could help, if my involvement with Power Query and SQL could actually help move things in a forward and positive direction, I'd love to be able to do that. I just don't know that I can justify the time on that versus all the other shiny things I want to be doing.
Olivier Travers (01:03:32):
Also, you could say it's a suboptimal optimization where the computing has been let's just throw more hardware at the problem, generally speaking, the last however many decades where it's hard engineering scarce power to go and do those marginal optimizations because you have to go deeply into the code as opposed to just buy Power BI Premium and you go from say for PPU, for 10 bucks to 20 bucks. Unless you have a massive number of users, it's trivial the amount of extra money to unlock, applying much more computing resources to the same issue. And then apply your human talent to things that you have no readily press a button and apply more hardware power to solve the issue, I guess.
Olivier Travers (01:04:13):
So I think in many cases, there's the, well it's okay-ish and good enough when we amp up a bit the resources against it, as opposed to, well, now it's a bit of an 80-20. To push for the 20% in extra performance, we have to double the amount of engineering talent. And that talent might be deployed into brand new problems, for instance, as opposed to chasing marginal utility.
Thomas LaRock (01:04:38):
Here's the thing though. If they gave you information about the statement or if you could get information from the statement the first time it was run, let's say out of the Query Store ... so here's the thing. You go into Power Query, you generate something, we go and we look at the SQL and I tell you it really isn't the most optimal thing in the world. But the generation of that code doesn't know if it's being run once by one user one time or a million times by a million users. It has no idea about scalability. It's like, "Here, here's the answer that you were looking for." And now a human is going to have to figure out if we need to make that thing scalable.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:13):
So if you were just given information at the bare bones level that said, "By the way, to let you know, this was 10 gabillion, logical reads, logical IO, things like that. It's fine if you're just going to run this once, but if two people need to run it, you should probably look into making this code better, because chances are that's not optimal." And if you just had that information, now you can talk about the human part and say, "Hey human, go focus on the ones that we can see are being run multiple times and consuming the most resources, because maybe instead of throwing hardware at that, maybe we should spend your time and salary on fixing those queries first." That at least would be a step in the right direction.
Olivier Travers (01:05:52):
That feeds back into how much human talent are we wasting. In the case of Power BI, that would be an issue for [inaudible 01:05:58] query or for the author waiting, getting their coffee while Power Query is refreshing the preview. But otherwise, if you're doing imports on the scheduled ... it doesn't matter. Just schedule it where by the time your users need to have the fresh data, it's in there in memory and that's it.
Olivier Travers (01:06:12):
So I think that was more ... the impedance was do your authoring once and maybe you wait a little bit, but the UI sort of makes up for having to write manual queries. So [inaudible 01:06:22] net is still productive ETL even though you feel frustrated. And then it's important, and now you can schedule however many times. As long as your query doesn't run out, by the time you need to refresh again, you're good. I guess that's how they saw sort of making those trade offs.
Rob Collie (01:06:37):
I'm just sitting here feeling very, very satisfied with myself, almost like this puppet master, as I listen to Tom suddenly start to enthusiastically spout off about some of the implications here, some of the directions it could go. I mean, this definitely isn't the sound of Tom getting engaged with the Power Query SQL server interface, now is it? Nope. Definitely not. It's not what that sounds like. Now, by taking the victory lap here, I'm probably sabotaging. If I was truly a puppet master, I would sit back and say nothing, just let Tom get started. But he's in, folks. I can tell.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:12):
Yeah, I'm going to download it right now. Power BI for Mac and I'll have it up and running here in no time.
Olivier Travers (01:07:18):
I'm losing track of the reverse, reverse, reverse psychology there, so I'm not sure who's getting whom there.
Rob Collie (01:07:23):
And we're losing respect for Tom and his Mac. These things happen. But you started to ask that question about query folding a few minutes ago. Just look up Power Query query folding. And by the time you're done, Tom, by the time you're done reading that ... in fact you should just stop right now. You shouldn't read that because you're going to get hooked.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:41):
Do this. Don't do that. I feel like George Harrison. Just tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it or not do it.
Rob Collie (01:07:47):
So you started to ask that question, Olivier, about query folding, and I'm like, "Oh god, here it comes. I am not going to have any opinion at all on this. I'm not even going to understand the question. I'm going to look really silly." But then you got to the end of the question and I'm like, "Oh, I do get this." So using Power Query essentially like as a macro recorder.
Olivier Travers (01:08:05):
And that's what it is.
Rob Collie (01:08:06):
To then write some SQL for you. Because it's one thing if it's a macro recorder that writes M for you. But now you've found macro recorder prime. It's even producing SQL statements that you can use. Okay. And then you can take those SQL statements, however clumsy they might be because they're machine-generated, like they always are, and move that SQL statement to the server, closer to the source, and have it run that and therefore simplifying your Power Query script. You connect to the view that you create with that exported SQL essentially. And hopefully it's a sip of coffee from now on when you make a change to your Power Query and not going and brewing one, drinking it, thinking about another one, and then going back to see if it's done.
Olivier Travers (01:08:51):
So when I did that, I thought that was brilliant. And I felt a little dirty, which makes it feel even better. But then for some reason, my data flow would not refresh. I would not get the latest data, and I was ... nobody's ... that I see is talking about this online, that kind of an edge case where I'm going to waste more cycles trying to troubleshoot this than moving on with my life. So I thought I should bring that up.
Rob Collie (01:09:13):
Tom's got you covered. He's coming for it. Until you said that part where the data flow didn't work anymore, I was prepared to give this the Rob Collie Two Thumbs Up Seal of Approval, right? Number one, it's clever. Number two, it works, right? This is where at least one of the thumbs gets retracted. Not quite a two thumbs up. But the third one is, is that it's dirty enough that going to upset people, who are the kind of people that when they get upset, that confirms you're on the right track.
Olivier Travers (01:09:43):
The projects I do, I either do departmental projects within large companies or enterprise projects within small or medium companies, right? I don't do huge enterprise projects with enterprise companies. So there's the value of being expedient. And usually I don't deal with IT. I deal with a CEO or a business owner or a CFO. I'm going to lose them fairly fast. If I go into the nitty gritty of my [inaudible 01:10:09]. I try to explain them that it's not a black box to establish trust, but at some point that's established and I can skip on some of the technical details and just focus on, yes, we have this challenge. We're going to solve it this way or that way. And we'll get the clean data that we can chart it. So it's not the most elegant. It's not something that's going to win architectural design awards, but it works and lets me stay within budget constraints where I'm still going to focus enough time on the end user result and value and adoption and everything else, as opposed to I spend 80% of the time cleaning up the damn data.
Rob Collie (01:10:43):
And even the SQL that's generated in that situation, at least that's potential starting point for someone who's really good at SQL to go look at this and go, "Okay, I can write this functionally equivalent in a better way, but in a way it's the clearest possible specification," because you see the code and you can run it and you can test for the equivalent of result.
Olivier Travers (01:11:03):
If the result is right. I did the transformations I wanted. So it is the right query in terms of what is spitting out. Are the inners clean and performing? Well, it is or it is not an issue. Maybe your SQL server or VM is slipping 95% of the time anyway, so we're wasting resources in some way by not using them, you could argue. Those are trade-offs. Yeah. It's generated art. It's logo by computer. Maybe that's good enough for 80% of or whatever. Or maybe it's good enough for prototyping, and then by the time you know that it's actually the query you need for the data that your CFO wants to see, then have it written properly, and you'll probably drop a Power Query by then and do it with the ADF and have a proper data warehouse and whatnot, and sell them on CNAPS and upsell on mid six figure consulting.
Rob Collie (01:11:51):
We were sent to put an end to that as sort of our credo. So where are your clients largely geographically today? Are they USA, given time zone? Have you put down a lot of local business route in Chile?
Olivier Travers (01:12:06):
Yeah. The local stuff I do once in a while. I used to push for more to get it when it was easy to get face to face with people just because I was craving getting out of the office. It's not been possible for the last couple of years, so I've not pursued that nearly as aggressively. Also, pricing is a bit more of an issue relative to first world countries. So the US is large part. I have a project right now in Canada. I've worked as far as Australia, where I have a slice of two hours to get them on the phone early in the morning. So you have to work a bit to make it work. But if you look at the curve, then it's mostly the US, and then a bit of this, a bit of that.
Rob Collie (01:12:42):
Are there user groups for Power BI and things like that in Chile? What's the local talent level?
Olivier Travers (01:12:47):
There's a user group. Again, back then, when it was easy to connect physically, I went and spoke a couple times, demoed maps and also how to connect to APIs. Had a lot of fun doing that. And then COVID happened. So I already do enough remote. I don't want to just be stuck to remote on the user group, so I have not been that active. And you see that the same thing in Brazil, they're getting there, but they're still a bit more of a state traditional IT approach to things, generally speaking.
Olivier Travers (01:13:13):
Also just the business culture is risk-averse and very hierarchical, so it's harder for people who are not in a clear chain of command to go and do something. So it's a bit more of a top-down, here's the exact requirement, you're trying to do my job for me. That's just not going to work out. Let me worry about that. What is it that you want to know to drive your business? Don't tell me that I need a gauge or ... you can give me preferences. I'm not going to be an absolutist again, but give me guidance. Don't give me directives. Otherwise hire a junior staff. Don't hire a guy who's been working for almost 30 decades.
Rob Collie (01:13:45):
I love your avoidance of the absolute. Because as we know, only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Olivier Travers (01:13:51):
I never speak in absolutes.
Rob Collie (01:13:54):
Well, Olivier, this has been great. I'm glad we got to catch up like this. Thank you so much for making the time to be here.
Olivier Travers (01:13:59):
Thanks for having me. This was really fun.
Announcer (01:14:01):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
We're starting off 2022 with a dual release party!
Our guest for the first part of the double feature is Geoff Mcneely, a very interesting human! He has a degree in Anthropology (we can check that one off of our interesting background list!) He's a Power BI OG, starting one of the first two Power BI user groups (Rob having started the other). He's a full-time Power BI professional working for Microsoft who has a strange distinction of being a non-Full-Time Full-Time employee (we will explain)!
Happy New Year everyone! Have a Data Year!
References in this episode:
Surface Table Parody Commercial Al Michaels Calls Surface an Ipad Phish - Theme from the Bottom
It's the last episode of Raw Data for 2021! Thank you to all of our awesome guests for taking the time to tell their stories, and thank you to everyone that listened to us and supported this fun little thing that we do!
This week's episode is a bit of a fun departure, as we peel back the curtain and talk a bit with Luke Pirozzoli, producer of Raw Data and Operations Manager at P3 Adaptive! A story not necessarily data-based, but certainly as winding and different a path as any!
We have some great episodes already recorded to start 2022 with a bang! Happy Holidays!
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. This is going to be our last episode for calendar year 2021. We've looked at the data and the data's very clear. Podcast listenership falls off during the holidays.
Rob Collie (00:00:12):
So today I thought we'd do something just a little bit different, little bit shorter, little bit of a lighter weight episode relative to our nearly two hour marathons we usually do and we're going to take a little bit of a peak behind the curtain and the subject.
Rob Collie (00:00:24):
The guest of honor for today's show is going to be none other than our good friend, Luke Pirozzoli AKA Luke the producer. There's been a lot of talk on this show over the last year and a half about career paths, career arcs, career changes, accidental career changes, happy accidents usually.
Rob Collie (00:00:44):
We're going to continue that theme today because Luke has definitely gone through one heck of a career change in the last year and a half, or has he?
Rob Collie (00:00:53):
Also, in this episode, we do a little bit of a review, a little Power BI review of the written transcripts of all 50 plus episodes to date. We throw out some glamor statistics.
Rob Collie (00:01:06):
And as a particularly outlandish bonus, at the end of this episode, the very, very end, you can hear the I think 11 minute audio of the one time that I called into Luke's radio show years ago. It's a little embarrassing. It's pretty funny. We'll let it roll uncut once the trailing music goes down, definitely stick around for that.
Rob Collie (00:01:26):
So he's listening to me record this introduction right now. Now he knows what we're going to talk about. I hope he's ready for it. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:34):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:01:39):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:02):
Welcome to the show, Luke Pirozzoli? Pirozzoli? No, Luke, Pirozzoli, welcome to the show. It's a little bit ironic, isn't it? Because you're always here, aren't you?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:02:16):
I am indeed. Hey, Rob. Hey, Tom. Oh. Tom not here.
Rob Collie (00:02:23):
Not yet, anyway. Tom might be joining us midstream. So you're basically here for every minute that we're recording over the course of what was it? How many shows have we done now?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:02:33):
What was it? 57, 56. What did I say?
Rob Collie (00:02:36):
We're actually recording our 60th right now, aren't we? And I think it's got to be a little weird for you, being such a silent member of the booth for so many episodes.
Rob Collie (00:02:46):
When until what? Semi recently, a year, year and a half ago, you were an on-air personality that did a lot of talking all day long every day it seemed like. Until late summer of 2020, what had you been up to professionally?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:03:06):
For a great deal of my 20s and 30s, late 20s and 30s and even in my 40s, I was a radio producer in Southeast Florida. I think I've lived in five or six counties on the Southeast side of the state Broward-Palm Beach.
Rob Collie (00:03:24):
Look at you world traveler. Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:03:27):
Yeah. Just Southeast Florida. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:30):
It's like, there was that Johnny Cash song, I've Been Everywhere, man. But it's like your entire list is like cities in south. Like, there's a little corner of South Florida.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:03:38):
It's all me. I am Florida man. Yeah. I've worked for iHeartMedia, formally Clear Channel, formally something else. But when I started with the company in 2003, it was Clear Channel at the time.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:03:55):
And then it went to iHeartMedia and yeah. For 17 years, I was in FM Talk Radio, which is a fairly exclusive club. A lot of people do Talk Radio, a lot of successful Talk Radio, not a whole lot of FM Talk, certainly no FM Talk stations. And I was a member of that very elite crew.
Rob Collie (00:04:19):
Yeah. And you broke into radio sort of the old fashioned way right. Decades ago now you're just sort of like hanging around the radio studio. Is that right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:04:27):
So I was working for Mosquito Control in Indian River County. I moved to Vero Beach out of "college." I went to Gainesville, UF. Go Gators! For eight years. I got a two year degree, very proud of my statement.
Rob Collie (00:04:42):
That's a 25% efficiency. Eight years, two year degree.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:04:49):
I had a lot of fun. It was a very average student because I didn't go to class very often, but I was an entomology major for a while until I ran into organic chemistry. And couldn't rattle...
Rob Collie (00:05:03):
That was the Boss Battle. That was the...
Luke Pirozzoli (00:05:05):
Yeah. Boss Battle that I failed. I ran out of quarters.
Rob Collie (00:05:10):
Just like, just grab the controller up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:05:13):
I actually worked for the College of Entomology for quite some time. I had a fascination with insects.
Rob Collie (00:05:20):
Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:05:20):
Morphology and biology of... But the chemistry of what I needed to kind of fulfill the major was not in my cards.
Rob Collie (00:05:29):
Think about all the different semi exotic backgrounds, educational backgrounds so many of our guests have had. We've had the marine biologist and the, what was it? Medieval archeologist.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:05:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:41):
An entomologist, the bug guy. That'll take the Pepsi Challenge with some of these other things. Right? I do remember there being a point in your life where you're like, "Oh my God, man. I'm going to go do this radio thing. This is awesome."
Luke Pirozzoli (00:05:57):
I just listened to this... I started flipping around the radio stations locally because that was before smartphones, and any kind of streaming services at all in 2000. That's when I moved to Vero and got that job. Yeah. County job was great job with great venues. I just wasn't happy. I was listening to this radio station that I found. This very dirty, very raw, very tawdry. And for a 27 year old me, I was like, "Oh, that's cool." I'd been familiar with Howard Stern and Bob and Tom, and like the Big Heavies. But these guys were local and I'm like, "Wow. Like these guys are right in the backyard. Like what?" And they're talking about these places that I wanted to go, like these bars and these clubs. And I'm like, "Yeah. Party me!" And my young self, I was single.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:06:40):
I was making decent money working for the county. And, again, listening to this radio station, I wanted be a part of it. It sounded fun. The personalities were very funny. The callers were great. No topic was off limits. Listening, it was just fun. And so there I am, hanging around the radio station bothering the operations manager for about a year and a half. Actually, there's something else in there. A big piece of the story that I should add. I won a flyaway contest with the show called the Love Doctors on at the time it was Real Talk 927. And they had another little station that they added, 1017. And so they were flipping around frequencies, but always the Love Doctors, they had been a heritage part of the radio community for like 30 years. And these guys were funny. They were really funny. And they gave away this, you hear that dog?
Rob Collie (00:07:32):
Yeah, that's fine.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:07:34):
They gave away this trip that I happened to win. And the air producer at the time, Dano.
Rob Collie (00:07:40):
Oh! Hey, Tom. Tom's jumping in now in midstream. He has no idea. He has no idea what we're talking about. Let's sum up. End of your podcast. I decided that we would feature Luke as our guest and we're getting Luke's bio, we're getting Luke's origin story, which is a bit different from others. We're right at the point where he's transitioning out of his, it was an eight year, two year degree in entomology, the study of insects.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:08:10):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:08:10):
And he was working for the county in somewhere in South Florida, which is the only place that Luke is allowed to live. And he's listening to this alien voice that's speaking to him like God. It's these local radio DJs, these talk show DJs that are... They're local to him. What year is this, Luke?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:08:29):
2000. I found, I moved to Vero and then found the Love Doctors.
Rob Collie (00:08:34):
Okay. So he's working in Mosquito Control for the county, which you wouldn't think would give him a lot of time for other ambitions and dreams, but it turns out it did. And so he's eyeing this radio job. Now you're caught up. You're digesting the story so far?
Thomas LaRock (00:08:49):
If you could bring me up the speed, remind me who's Luke again.
Rob Collie (00:08:54):
Yeah. He's the one that speaks 7% less than you on...
Thomas LaRock (00:08:59):
That's not possible. I'm only at 6.9%.
Rob Collie (00:09:01):
Oh yeah. I was rounding.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:07):
Luke. I kid Luke, because he knows I love him. And he's awesome. And I think this is a great idea. So backing up a little bit, I'm very interested to know more about his origin story, but also the two of you, the origin story, and also the idea that, Rob, you've managed to hire and then fire, I don't know how many friends of yours throughout your life.
Rob Collie (00:09:29):
Yeah. Luke does represent a suspension of my recently acquired rule of not hiring anybody that I knew beforehand. But yeah, when I first got into business like this, I think it's a reasonably common instinct. Oh, let's go get the band back together like in Blues Brothers, like we'll just go collect all these people. And it turns out that having a prior relationship is almost like a contraindication of future success working together.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:09:54):
It's not even just like random chance. Like I think it's actually harder because those relationships, I guess, bring with them a history and expectations that don't really fit the professional world. I'm not even saying like expectations of favoritism or anything like that. I just think it started off as a personal relationship. You know the saying, "Liquor before beer and ever fear. Beer before liquor and ever sicker."
Rob Collie (00:10:17):
I think it's cool to work together and become friends, but being friends and then working together is like kryptonite. In addition to not working out most of the time, you also almost inevitably torture a relationship along the way. I had gone cold turkey, I was clean. I was excited. I had gotten my P3 number of people that I had known before P3. People at P3 other than my wife, which, for obvious reasons that one stays. I had gotten that number down to zero. Ah, and then I was like, "Oh and oh. I think we might have to suspend the policy. Just for a moment."
Luke Pirozzoli (00:10:53):
You wanted to start a podcast.
Rob Collie (00:10:54):
That's right.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:10:54):
And we were talking about my radio experience. We're also going back to 2003 when I started at iHeartMedia. And that's where we were discussing before you came in Tom. Obviously the 28 year old me, and you talk about it, Rob, how your younger self wasn't ready to do the things that you're doing now. Neither was my younger self. I didn't have the skills that you needed. I might have had the... Maybe the personality that would fit. But little else, I would imagine at the time, yeah. I just loved the concept of being a radio guy. It's a local celebrity at... Again, this is the mid to late twenties me.
Rob Collie (00:11:36):
All right. So, Luke, at this point in your life, you're listening to this radio show and you're like, "Ah, I think I... This is awesome. Maybe I could even do this." I got to ask, were you like one of the regular callers at this point?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:11:47):
I was a very irregular caller in that I didn't think my life was interesting enough in compared to the other callers. I mean, they had... Again, we're talking pre Janet Jackson Super Bowl where the FCC got involved in media. And so this local show and this local station was ridiculously hot talk. It was hot talk. Like Howard Stern at his worst. These guys were doing the same stuff only on a local level and slipping under all the radar, for sure. The FCC radar.
Rob Collie (00:12:20):
It wasn't Bubba the Love Sponge, was it?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:12:22):
No, he's a Tampa guy. We were very aware of Bubba, because I worked in Morning Radio in Miami for a little bit of my career as well. That was probably the peak of my professional status, I guess, because Miami's a pretty big media market. And More Morning Radio was pretty big.
Rob Collie (00:12:44):
To show you how big Luke was at that time, I went down in, I think, 2017. Down to Fort Lauderdale to meet with a client. And I said, "Oh, why the heck not? Why not look up a couple of friends from down there that I haven't seen since early middle school?" That turned out to be mm, interesting. Right? That was an interesting thing. So these guys are hanging out in my hotel room. I haven't seen them in forever. These people were on the scene in my life at the same time Luke was, they overlapped. So these people knew Luke from back in the day. While I was talking to them, Luke even comes up in the conversation between the three of us talking about this guy that was this producer on this radio show in Miami.
Rob Collie (00:13:29):
And it just was a random thing that came up and they didn't even know that they were talking about the Luke that they knew from back in the day. They had no idea that that was the same guy, because when I vanished from the scene, they lost touch with each other. And they knew like half of Luke's life story at that point. They're like, "Oh my God, we knew this and this and this and this." Right? And they didn't even live in Miami. They lived in the Fort Lauderdale area. So it was pretty funny.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:13:53):
And that we were talking heritage radio stations or radio shows certainly in this show, the Love Doctors and the morning show that I was on. Paul and young Ron at the time. Now, it's just the Paul Castronovo Show. It was pretty cool to be a part of that kind of big time thing. I mean, all the biggest comics came through there. The biggest musicians, not that they would hang out with us, but it was just a big scene.
Rob Collie (00:14:19):
For example, like our celebrity number, Tom, is down to one for a lot of celebrities via Luke, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:14:26):
Oh, right.
Rob Collie (00:14:27):
Like our Sammy Hagar number. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:14:30):
That's Sammy Hagar. John Cleese.
Rob Collie (00:14:33):
John Cleese.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:14:34):
And it's pronounced Cleese as from the man's mouth himself. Because you don't say cheese, you say cheese.
Rob Collie (00:14:40):
You don't say cheese.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:14:42):
You don't say Cleese, you say Cleese. That's exactly what he said. Oh, man. Yeah. So I was an irregular caller. They had a segment where it was like one liners at the end of their show called the Quickies. I was a master at that because it was hit and run stuff. I would write stuff during the course of the day. I would listen to the show. I would do callbacks to something that happened early. And I would just have... It was hit or miss, but when I made them laugh, that was, for me, that was like, "Ah, yeah. Great." And they were giving away this Jamaica trip for several listeners. They were going to do... They were going to broadcast from one of the resorts down there. And I was one of the lucky participants in that trip. And I got to know the producer, Dano, and the guys a little bit. Again, for about a year after that I was emailing the operations manager, just like, "Give me a job. Anything, whatever. I don't care. I'll quit my awesome job and work for you for nothing." This was my mindset at the time.
Rob Collie (00:15:36):
You're starting to sound like Jeff Sagarin. Constantly pestering the guy at USA Today.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:15:41):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:42):
That's awesome.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:15:44):
But it's persistence. When you see something you want, I don't give up easily, especially when it's so attainable. And I knew I had maybe a room to expand some skills that I know I didn't have. I'm like, "Okay, I can learn all this stuff. It's just computers. Right? Computer operated software. I can do that. It can't be that hard. Right? I know some of the people that are already doing it. It can't be that hard."
Rob Collie (00:16:11):
He's talking about the radio show now. He's not talking about Power BI and the...
Luke Pirozzoli (00:16:15):
No, not... No, no. Exactly. And I'm one of the few people at P3 Adaptive that does not have the data gene. Does not like... My Excel use is probably less than some of your children and grandchildren, some of you listening.
Rob Collie (00:16:32):
I want to point out that the data gene is not... Here's the thing. You might have it dormant and still just haven't encountered that kind of that Eureka moment where it lights up. Now, if you've been heavily exposed to data and spreadsheets and you just like are repulsed by them. Okay. No data gene for you.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:16:53):
Is there anything in the middle because I'm not repulsed. And I do... I'm curious by nature. So all the data that's... Everything is data. I know this, especially in the last year and a half. I've learned so much about things, especially in the business world or not even in business world, just the world.
Rob Collie (00:17:08):
I suppose maybe you can be heterozygous for the data gene.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:13):
Oh.
Rob Collie (00:17:14):
Whereas the most of us that like that "have" it, we're homozygous.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:19):
Okay.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:17:20):
So you're adding those two words to our Wordigami?
Rob Collie (00:17:23):
Wordigami. Yeah. That's right. Heterozygous and homo.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:17:26):
Please.
Rob Collie (00:17:26):
Cha ching, cha ching. Increment the counter. I was going to do a distinct count of words. Like actual unique words used on the podcast. Because we have it in our transcripts. Right? I don't have that ready yet, but we are going to have that. Oh, we could do that. Like the beginning of every episode with 7,112 distinct words in use. We've really used the English language folks all 7,000 words ago.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:55):
Oh, we have used it and abused it.
Rob Collie (00:17:58):
Ah, yeah. I wonder. I wonder how many...
Thomas LaRock (00:17:59):
Like sailors on shore leave.
Rob Collie (00:18:01):
Now, I... So just as a little preview here for everybody. I mean, I have this Power BI model with not all of our transcripts, because not all the transcripts are done. Some of the more recent shows the transcripts aren't ready yet. Yeah. I have 50 transcripts in this Power BI model. Every word. It's really fascinating.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:17):
That's post-production, you said?
Rob Collie (00:18:18):
As post-production. Yes, that's...
Thomas LaRock (00:18:20):
Because I want to know how much of my stuff's been left on the cutting room floor. Because I think you're keeping me down.
Rob Collie (00:18:25):
We will never know.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:26):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
We're not going to provide you the denominator, Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:29):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:18:29):
It's unknowable. We're not going to send off the Raw files for transcription. I mean, that would just be a waste.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:18:36):
It would be.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:36):
Well, that that's the stuff that's going to get us in trouble.
Rob Collie (00:18:38):
I don't know. I think though, it's likely that we cut me at a higher percentage than we cut you.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:44):
Oh, I'm sure.
Rob Collie (00:18:45):
Your percentage goes up in post-production I'm thinking. We need to get back to Luke's story. But let's just say there's been already kind of a running joke going on that started backstage and no one knows about it. Is that we've done an analysis of Tom's average mic time based on words spoken over the lifetime of the podcast and he's at 6.9%. 6.9% of the word spoken on this podcast. Now, by the way, this is not counting episodes that you weren't on. If you weren't able to make an episode, right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:19:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:19):
We're not going to count that against your total. Our DAX takes that into account because we're serious. We're serious people here.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:19:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:27):
And yeah. And I actually had to scratch my head for a moment. Because I was very rusty at DAX. I was rustier at DAX than I realized when I was doing this. All right. So you persistently break in through the Jamaica thing. Next thing you know, you're in this damn near 20 year career, right, of radio taking you all over the expansive region known as South Florida.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:19:49):
Yeah. And I had been fired once. I've been laid off once and came back both times.
Rob Collie (00:19:56):
I thought you'd been fired and laid off a lot more than that. Those are rookie numbers. You need to pump up. You worked in radio. You've only... Only fired one time? Laid off one time?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:20:06):
For most radio people, that is the case because there is... It's funny. There's a saying, "you haven't made it in this business unless you've been fired at least three times." And there are people that move constantly. I was not willing to move away from my family to move across the country. I just wasn't... I wasn't down with that.
Rob Collie (00:20:23):
I see. I see. So you're saying you quit radio before you've been fired three times. Like you didn't have the tenacity to stick with it now, did you? Only 18 years of it? You quitter.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:20:34):
Yeah. I just... At some point, I was just like, "I can't... At this point, I can't do anything else. I can't. I've been doing this so long." Then I started getting worried. I'm getting older and I'm not... And radio really, terrestrial radio is not a up and coming business with a huge upside and a future. It really isn't.
Rob Collie (00:20:55):
That might be the first time terrestrial has made it onto the show. I don't know. We have to go to the record.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:21:00):
Cha ching.
Rob Collie (00:21:00):
Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. If it had before it came from Luke, right? Terrestrial, meaning not satellite radio.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:21:08):
Correct.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:09):
But isn't all radio technically terrestrial. That's its origin.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:21:13):
I can give you some email addresses where you can lodge your complaints, Tom, about what they call it. I'm sure they'll change it just to suit you.
Rob Collie (00:21:21):
I mean, when the radio waves are up in orbit, they're not terrestrial, but they have to come down here for us to hear them. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:21:28):
And their origins... He's right. Their origins are all terrestrial. Unless, we're broadcasting from some source.
Rob Collie (00:21:35):
From the space station. Howard Stern coming at you from the ISS.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:38):
Oh my God. I can't imagine shacking up with him for like a month.
Rob Collie (00:21:42):
Oh yeah. Imagine. Yeah. Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:21:44):
They shot Shatner and Strayan into space. Right? She started the space...
Rob Collie (00:21:50):
All right. So there's all kinds of wacky things. At one point during your radio career, you won a local tournament, a satellite tournament, and went to the World Series of Poker. You were in the Main Event out in Vegas.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:22:03):
Yeah. Before that... Yes, I was. Before that... In 2011. Before that I had won a pretty decent cash in an online tournament before Black Friday where the feds shut down Full Tilt and PokerStars and all the other poker sites for operation of the US. And it was a $200 buy-in, I finished, I think, fifth. And it was $25,000 and I got all my checks. Yeah. And then not too long after that, they shut it down. And anybody that had money in Full Tilt or PokerStars kitty, they lost it. I don't even know if they still were able to get it back to this day. And yeah. So I won that 25K and then I did win that trip to Vegas and the $10,000 Main Event buy in and I got bumped out on day two. My pocket kings got cracked pre... Like we were all in preflop. I had kings, he had tens and he spiked the 10 on the flop and I didn't draw it on them. So that was the end of that
Rob Collie (00:23:03):
Yep. Ball game.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:23:03):
Yep. What are you going to do? I'll never forget it for the rest of my life.
Rob Collie (00:23:08):
You wake up in the middle of the night. "Tens! Tens!"
Luke Pirozzoli (00:23:12):
Yeah. Yeah. What are you do? I saw one hand. I mean, I know. I kind of geek out on poker because I played a lot, especially online because it was so easy to cram in numerous games. And one of the guys had... He flopped a full house and he was up against quads. The other guy had quads, flop quads.
Rob Collie (00:23:31):
I'm going to jump in here. When he says quads, he means someone had four of a kind.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:23:35):
Four of a kind. A very, very good poker hand. Full house is a damn good poker hand, not as good as quads. Yeah. And it was crazy. Obviously the guy with quads knew he had it, but the guy with the full house is like, "What does this guy have? He can't have quads. He can't have it." Oh, what a brutal beat. That's way worse than mine. Way worse.
Rob Collie (00:23:55):
Yeah. I want nothing to do with something like that. That sounds awful. Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:24:00):
It was fun. But yeah, again, when I met my girlfriend and I live with her and her three kids. Now, my step kids essentially. They really are. I've adopted them as my very own. So I've kind of calmed down all my single guy lifestyle.
Rob Collie (00:24:18):
No more late night cash games with the local police union, like in Rounders. You're not hanging out with Worm anymore.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:24:29):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:24:29):
You got KGB, you got to watch out for him.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:24:32):
That's right. John Malkovich.
Rob Collie (00:24:33):
So no, Tom. Oh no, no. No data gene for this guy, but oh, he's got to be in there calculating probabilities on hands and all that kind of stuff, which...
Luke Pirozzoli (00:24:40):
Fair enough.
Rob Collie (00:24:41):
Kind of gives me the willies. I want nothing to do with that kind of thinking when I'm just sitting at a table and it just... No. Uh-huh (affirmative). So you're right. I wanted to do a podcast. Didn't know what I was doing. And by the way, folks, if you've been listening for a while and you're like, "Ah, this podcast sounds really good. The people on the podcast sound really good." Well, that's because of Luke. The intro, the outro, all the editing, the quality control. And, Luke, when you're doing all the editing yourself, which we're... I mean, we've been working very hard. I've been just absolutely beating you to get you to stop doing this all on your own while telling you at the same time, "But don't compromise the quality."
Luke Pirozzoli (00:25:25):
Yeah. The ogres dilemma. Like what am I supposed to do?
Rob Collie (00:25:26):
Yeah. For a show that we record two hours of audio and it ends up being like an hour and 40 minutes when we publish it. How many hours on average have you been syncing into that two hours of audio to create a show?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:25:41):
Yeah, it takes about 12 to 15 hours per episode. And sometimes it's a lot less than an hour 40. I think it's closer to about an hour 20. I mean, data. I would say that it's closer to like an hour 20, hour 25 average time per episode. I know our Chase Hargis episode, our most recent one, was only 40 minutes.
Rob Collie (00:26:00):
Snackable, by Rob.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:26:03):
That's right. You should snack it. It's a great episode.
Rob Collie (00:26:06):
Yeah. That's how much effort, right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:26:07):
Yeah. 12 to 15 hours.
Rob Collie (00:26:07):
12 to 15 hours. Six to seven times the raw length of the audio. That level of perfectionism is much appreciated. I love it. And then I tell you, now we should do that, that same level of perfectionism, but in less time.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:26:24):
Yeah. Well, that's where the wonderful world of outsourcing that you've introduced me to. And there's a vast...
Rob Collie (00:26:30):
Oh, so wonderful. Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:26:32):
Group of skilled people and some not so skilled that I'm finding out.
Rob Collie (00:26:36):
There's skill and reliability. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:26:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:39):
And delegating something that you have... This is in general, when you take something very seriously. Like when it's almost like a matter of honor and principle to you that it be excellent. That's one of the hardest things in the world to effectively delegate.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:26:52):
Yeah. And that's the situation here. If I hear something that doesn't sound right, a raspy breath, some people have phlegm in their throat. Or there's a nose breathe or something I don't like the sound of something. I'll try and get it out. I'll at least try. If there's an um or an ah, or you know, or a like. We all do it. Very, very few people are able to speak without those words. And I get rid of them all. And it takes a long, long time.
Rob Collie (00:27:26):
Although way to go. Giving away a secret. We all sound so much smarter than we actually are after you take out all of our hesitation.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:27:34):
You sound as smart as you actually are. Every guest of... Every one of these folks are exceptional human beings.
Rob Collie (00:27:42):
Oh, I appreciate that.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:27:43):
That we got on this show.
Rob Collie (00:27:43):
Luke demonstrating the principle of sometimes you have to lie to tell the truth.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:27:50):
Even Tom. I feel that way about even Tom, I feel that way about him. High praise, sir.
Rob Collie (00:27:53):
Oh, 6.9% of that time.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:27:57):
Jigiddy.
Rob Collie (00:28:01):
Every 10th of a percent matters when you're down in that range. Right? Okay. So wanted to do a podcast knowing sort of that I know nothing. I call you up and say, "Maybe we do this part-time." And then I quickly started thinking, "No, let's get you on full-time." And you had to get to the point where to suspend the rule of hiring someone I know. And no one told me I had to have this rule. This was a rule that I learned the hard way and sort of implemented for myself. Instead of making it my decision, I had to meet Kellan. Kellan, what do you think? Right?
Rob Collie (00:28:33):
Because basically the question was, how long is it going to take him to produce an episode of the podcast? I mean, like we record for a couple hours, it'll take him what? Like 45 minutes to clean that up. I mean, he's not going to have that much to do. He's going to have room to do other things. Kellan got to know Luke and came back and said, "Oh yeah. We can use the hell out of this guy." And I'm like, "Really? Luke, you sure?"
Luke Pirozzoli (00:29:00):
Tom referenced something earlier about our relationship, Rob. We also haven't discussed that you are my oldest friend in the universe. This is how I describe it. My oldest friend in the universe. Third grade. We were seven years old.
Rob Collie (00:29:14):
Other than family, you're the person I have known the longest. That I still talk to. Yeah. Third grade, eight years old, Mrs. Lumbards class. Although, were we? I don't... Were we in the same third grade? Like homeroom?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:29:31):
I don't think so.
Rob Collie (00:29:31):
I had Lefkowitz for third grade.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:29:35):
Your memory is way better than mine for certain. I know that we were aware of each other and started conversing, but we didn't really start clicking until we were in the same class.
Rob Collie (00:29:47):
Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:29:48):
I think that's when things just ramped up and then we started hanging out.
Rob Collie (00:29:50):
That's fourth grade. That was the Mrs. Wenig years. That's back when my brain was still like accurately recording memories. The writing head has sort of gotten a little bouncy on the disc in later years. And, Tom, we were programming together. Not because we wanted to, but we were told to. Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:30:12):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:30:12):
Before Halloween, I saw a Tweet that it... It just busted me up, which was on this Halloween. I'm going to go as formerly known as gifted child. And I'm just going to wear my normal clothes and people are going to keep coming up to me and asking me, "What are you supposed to be?" And I'll reply, "I was supposed to be a lot of things."
Thomas LaRock (00:30:40):
I love that.
Rob Collie (00:30:42):
So Luke and I were in this gifted class together, and this was a very almost like hippies seventies leftover thing. Right? Like this idea that I don't know that they even use this word anymore. Or if they have things like that anymore. I don't... My kids I don't think were ever even tested for such a thing. Seems like this has gone extinct. I remember in like first grade walking through the library one day and there was suddenly, there was this giant inflatable bubble and there was a teacher and like five kids sitting inside of it. And I was like, "Holy cow, that's awesome. Why don't I get to sit in a bubble like that? I've got to go learned stupid..." Like I knew what I was about to have to go do was going to be really boring.
Rob Collie (00:31:26):
It wasn't going to be nearly as cool as sitting in this bubble. Right? And wouldn't you know it, I got tested a few weeks later. I was really resistant. My mom's said I had to go get tested. I'm like, "I don't want to take no stinking test. I don't want to go for a stinking test." But she could have just said, "Look, this is the test to see if they'll put you... If you get to go hang out in the plastic bubble." And I would've been like, "Aw, sweet." Next thing you know, a few months later I'm sitting in that bubble and all the other kids are walking by to go like study whatever boring thing they're about to do.
Rob Collie (00:31:59):
And I'm like, "Ah, suckers." I don't know that it had anything to do with actually developing me in any positive way. I think all it did was give me some sense of exceptionalism that was undeserved. This is probably why they retired this whole concept. But so like basically every day, maybe not every day, but we'd get pulled out of our respective home rooms. It shows you how much they cared about the curriculum being taught there. Like we just totally take you away from it. It doesn't matter.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:32:28):
You don't need it anyway.
Rob Collie (00:32:31):
It's so pointless anyway. Right? And they would send us off to this other classroom to like have fun. Like holy cow, what a great thing. So Luke and I met under sort of like the most positively influential circumstances. Right? How can you not be happy while you're off doing fun things? It was like that hour or two of the day was usually better than if you'd been allowed to stay home.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:32:57):
Yeah, definitely. And we also shared a love of role playing games, specifically Dungeons and Dragons at the time. And many, many others.
Rob Collie (00:33:05):
Luke introduced me to this. Seriously. Again, snapshot memory. I remember we're walking through this one hallway on the way to the cafeteria in Morrow Elementary. And you're like walking next to me going, "Hey, you ever play Dungeons and Dragons?" And I'm just ignoring you. I'm just flat out ignoring you.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:33:23):
Well, I've gotten used to that over the years.
Rob Collie (00:33:25):
I want nothing to do with it. I'm just like... But I'm not even turning around and answering your question. Like, that's how derisive I am. I'm like an eight year old blowing you off. But you, just like with the radio station, you kept persisting this Dungeons and Dragons thing. So I wasn't into it until...
Luke Pirozzoli (00:33:46):
Until I wore you down.
Rob Collie (00:33:48):
Yeah, that's right.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:33:49):
I just wore you down.
Rob Collie (00:33:50):
And boy, did I take to it? Oh my God.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:33:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:33:54):
I've actually played some Dungeons and Dragons with my kids. Like years ago. They really loved it. They were really into it up until about the time they got a hold of their smartphones.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:34:05):
Yeah. That makes perfect sense.
Rob Collie (00:34:07):
And the same thing with the Xbox. Dungeons and Dragons is a cool thing to do if you don't have an Xbox.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:34:14):
Like a game like Skyrim, or Skyrim, or whatever you call it, or Warcraft or any of the games that we're into now. It's like that in another dimension. It's another level of reality and the imagination has gone sadly.
Rob Collie (00:34:27):
Yeah. Yeah. So regular classrooms in this school that we were at, they might have had one computer in them, like one Apple or two, but probably none is my memory. I don't remember there being any, but in this gifted classroom, there were like 20. They had us programming, like an Apple BASIC. They had us programming in a thing called Logo, which is a turtle that you tell to move around the screen with a pen that can... You can tell the... You have like pen up and pen down commands. So it's kind of almost like Etch A Sketch that you program.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:35:03):
Too bad they didn't teach you Python.
Rob Collie (00:35:07):
Yeah. Yeah. I know that would've changed everything. Wouldn't it? I mean, yeah. You got to ease people into these things. So that was the origin story, but then eventually I moved away. Right? Then we kept in touch. We see each other in the summers, things like that.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:35:19):
Yep. My dad would, because he's too cheap to fly us. He would drive, he would come down from Tennessee and pick us up in South Florida and then he'd drop us back off at Rob's family's house. And I would hang with them for like a week or so.
Rob Collie (00:35:32):
Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:35:33):
Yeah. And we always maintained touch. It was sporadic at certain periods of our lives, but we always managed to get together and we always managed to catch up throughout the years. And it's hard to do sometimes with some of your old friends and you're working at Microsoft. We had talked through those years. I didn't know. It was as eye opening and challenging and crazy as I'm learning, listening to every single one of these fantastic podcast offerings.
Rob Collie (00:36:01):
Yeah. Gifted class in third grade is where I learned to think I was special. Microsoft is where I learned to think I was not.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:36:07):
How about that? I knew you were also starting Power Pivot Pro at the time in 2013 and later turned into P3 Adaptive. I knew about it, but I didn't know how incredible the tools were. I didn't know how incredible the people were. Of course, I had no idea what I was doing, but I knew podcast editing and I know people.
Rob Collie (00:36:30):
It's a gateway drug.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:36:31):
Yeah. It is. It really is being in talk radio for all these years. Talking to all these people over time. I hope I've filled the holes that were required thus far.
Rob Collie (00:36:41):
Hey, Luke, can we cut that part out? Just kidding.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:47):
Yeah. Just kidding. No, we're going to leave the part where we talk about Luke filling holes.
Rob Collie (00:36:51):
Yeah. That's what he does, man. It doesn't matter what size, shape, whatever. He's in there.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:36:55):
That's right. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:36:57):
So as time has gone on Kellan has proven correct. Because you've been taking on more and more things. When he got to know you before we hired you, he was like, "Yeah. Okay. He's a podcast guy. Great. He's an audio guy. He's a producer. But he's also, he doesn't know it. He's also an operations guy and we're going to use him on the operations side of the house." And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I don't understand any of that operation stuff. That sounds great." That's the stuff you're really good at and I've proven to not be. So fantastic. It's all a mystery to me.
Rob Collie (00:37:30):
One of the general themes that I really, really like about our team is that most people come to work for us, they don't change what they're doing. Most of the people we hire are consultants. Most of them weren't consultants before, but they're at least Power BI wizards and they continued to be that afterwards. Right? Your arc is that you're now doing things that you've never done in your career. There's some things that you're working on now that two years ago, you'd probably have been like, "I'm going to be doing what?"
Luke Pirozzoli (00:37:58):
Yeah. Never heard of the tools, some of the software that we use, and the things that we use. It is just... It is. It's all new to me. And we talk about the imposter syndrome thing and I'm not a consultant in that space, but I'm still in... I have it. I've had it for a while and it predates me coming here. I'm sure of that, but yeah, definitely exposed to a whole new realm of tasks and things that I do. And including kind of retooling our security operations, the whole URL change that we did.
Rob Collie (00:38:37):
Yeah. You're a project manager on the switch from the powerpivotpro.com to p3adaptive.com.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:38:44):
Yeah. And, of course, I'll give Alex, our web dev, major props because he busted his hump to get that done. He did most of the heavy lifting. I just kind of made sure that we had everything under control.
Rob Collie (00:38:56):
Yeah. But technical project manager for two relatively massive... Hey, guess what? You're learning what IT is like. Right? It's thankless. I mean, when it goes right, no one notices.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:39:13):
Yeah. It's true. And in this incorporating something new and kind of rolling something new out, it's still not quite right yet. That's what's so great about the team. They're not able to do certain things, but they're not like, "Oh my God!" Nobody's panicking. Nobody's freaking out. Nobody's angry. They're just like, "Ah." And they know I kind of... The way I am. Everybody that sends me a message is my first priority. That's kind of how I operate.
Rob Collie (00:39:42):
Sounds like you're vulnerable to a denial of service attack. Everyone's listening to this now like, "Oh, I know what to do. I'll just send them a couple of emails."
Luke Pirozzoli (00:39:52):
Well, depends on who you are and you got to move the company.
Rob Collie (00:39:54):
It's Luke P at P3 Adaptive, folks. If you want to completely gum up the works, just send him an email and ask him to calculate the first 45 digits of Pi by hand in binary.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:40:07):
Yeah. I love hearing from new people.
Rob Collie (00:40:10):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I asked Kellan recently. I'm like, "I didn't have any reason to distrust you, Kellan, when you sort of screened and interviewed Luke. Now that you've kind of proven correct, Kellan. Like he's doing things that you thought he could do for us. And it's going really well. Like now, I'm actually interested. What was it that you saw?" And his answer was like, "I've been running into people like Luke, not frequently, but enough of them over the years that you just sort of know them when you see them." I'm like, "Okay. All right. Well, I mean, that still doesn't really answer my... But it satisfied my curiosity." Yeah. I just asked him that recently, by the way. But the one thing that is, I think, common...
Rob Collie (00:40:50):
Well, first of all, you mentioned imposter syndrome, which if no one's determining says this before, like imposter syndrome is an inevitability. All you need is integrity, and then to be in a relatively high performing environment. That's it. Integrity plus high performing environment and imposter syndrome is you should like mathematically, like do the algebra and out comes the imposter syndrome. But hey, like you said, you have been the face of rolling out Intune at our company. You should be hated, just absolutely despised. I'm going to roll out this thing that makes it sometimes impossible to log in. It's going to... It's really going to mess your shit up.
Rob Collie (00:41:33):
And if all goes well, all it will do is prevent something. We'll never have the problem. We'll never know that it saved us.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:41:41):
Yeah. And that's true. And so far it's been a great tool and kind of give credit to the freelancers that we hired. They were very good. Initially I had an individual that he was good, but he also he thought he could do it. And he couldn't because he had so much other stuff going on.
Rob Collie (00:41:59):
Yes.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:42:00):
And we needed something done rather quickly. And so I had to jump off of him, but I almost screwed myself because I waited too long to make the decision to move to another individual.
Rob Collie (00:42:13):
Oh, yeah. That's tough. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:42:14):
Almost screwed us.
Rob Collie (00:42:15):
There's lessons... Right. There's lessons to that, right? That's the problem. That's why people are so hesitant to hire a data consulting firm.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:42:23):
That makes sense.
Rob Collie (00:42:23):
By the time they reach the point where they've realized that it's not working out, it's going to be too late. And people are sort of like pot committed at that too. You just sort of got to write it out and you got to write it out in a really, really awful, terrible self destructive way. And so yeah. Hiring a consulting firm, it's like you're inviting someone into your house and nine out of 10 chance. It's a vampire.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:42:53):
I would imagine there's a lot of research and maybe sometimes not so much. I'm sure it would surprise me how many companies make a decision like that to go with a consulting firm without really doing a heck of a lot of research. I would hope not, but I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:43:10):
Well, I mean, I don't know. It's not quite nine out of 10, but at least four out of five of the external vendors we've... Professional services, companies that we've outsourced things to have been a mistake. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:43:23):
Yeah. I mean, how do you know that? You do your research and you talk to them and they don't deliver what they say they can deliver. It's like, what the hell happened?
Rob Collie (00:43:34):
We come in peace.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:43:35):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:43:35):
P3 Adaptive. We are not here to drain your blood.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:43:37):
No doubt.
Rob Collie (00:43:39):
All right. So this "short" little episode is as usual running really long. We promised the people some stats. One of the things we do here. And when I say we, someone other than me, feeds every finished audio track, every audio recording of the show to a transcript service and they do a great job. The transcripts are really good.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:44:03):
Should I give them a plug?
Rob Collie (00:44:04):
Yeah. Who is the transcript service?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:44:06):
Rev.com.
Rob Collie (00:44:07):
Rev.com. All right. They do a great... This is the first time we've ever had, what resembles an ad in our podcast. And if you go there and you use the code "raw". You'll get a 0% discount.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:44:23):
They do a pretty good job and a great turnaround.
Rob Collie (00:44:25):
Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:44:26):
And they... Well, I mean, and I'll say this, and I told their reps the same thing. Their automated service, meh. Their live humans, very good.
Rob Collie (00:44:33):
Yeah. It turns out humans still needed.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:44:36):
Yes, indeed.
Rob Collie (00:44:37):
I mean, especially a podcast like ours with all the weird phrases that get used and everything. All this insight, baseball sometimes.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:44:43):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:44:44):
Plus I'm a weirdo. So we have all these podcast transcripts, and guess what? They're in dot text format. Oh. So you know what we can do? We can feed them through Power Query and puree them and bring them into a Power BI model. And all of this has happened basically over the weekend. The idea came to me late in the week. I did need some help. Ed Hansberry on our team came up big for me a couple times. And then, of course, I'm really rusty at DAX. Mark Beetle had to catch a DAX mistake. I'm like, "I know something's wrong here, but where is it?" I feel like I'm one of the students in a class I used to teach.
Rob Collie (00:45:19):
Right? We're going to be publishing some of this. I think so watch the Raw Dat, Twitter account, watch my Rob Collie Twitter account, and watch the P3 Adaptive Twitter account while you're at it. We've got a family of accounts here. 53 of our shows have transcripts at the moment. And I think that's 53 out of 59, or 53 out of 58. We have a few that for various reasons, we haven't got transcribed, but in the 53 transcripts we have, again, let's do #meaninglessanalysis. Ready? A lot of Power BI. I was texting today with Dave Gainer. Dave gainer, who was on our podcast. He sent me a quote or a thought. I'm not sure if it was something he thought of or whether he's quoting something. Because he's always sending me quotes.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:45:57):
He's a quote guy.
Rob Collie (00:45:58):
Oh no, he read a good one. Happiness is an expression of the soul in considered actions. And I had just sent him a picture of the Wordigami word cloud for his episode. And I said, "Oh, perfect. Me subverting sophisticated industrial strength tools for the purpose of making Wordigami word cloud visuals is very much an example of that." Happiness is an expression of the soul and considered actions. There you go.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:46:26):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:46:26):
So this meaningless analysis is brought to you by happiness.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:46:30):
Aw.
Rob Collie (00:46:31):
And by the way, these analyses shouldn't be possible. Power BI is not designed to do this kind of thing. It's like a kryptonite task and it's a layup. Power BI just blows it out of the water. No problem at all. It's unreal. I'm like having trouble sleeping, because I'm thinking about, "Oh, I could add that feature to the model." I'm back, but I'm...
Luke Pirozzoli (00:46:52):
And that's typically how it goes, right? When you're building something, and this is coming from a person who does not do any of this, as we've covered. That's a typical kind of process where you start realizing things that it can do along the way as you're building something.
Rob Collie (00:47:07):
Yeah. You're peeling the onion of possibility. There you go. There's an original.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:47:10):
I like that.
Rob Collie (00:47:10):
There's an original quote. That was the first time ever.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:47:13):
Write it down.
Rob Collie (00:47:14):
Brand new sentence, as they say on Reddit. Okay.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:47:17):
And you also... By the way, you also did this, as you mentioned. You were thinking about it and over the weekend, like a two day period of work, and you and a couple of other members of the team that you had to tag in briefly.
Rob Collie (00:47:28):
Yeah. We're recording this particular segment of this show on a Sunday. It's going to go live in a couple of days. The entire Wordigami word cloud happened today. I was able to do that with no help.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:47:41):
That's amazing. And so another kind of uneducated question, why would this... You said early that it shouldn't be possible or it shouldn't be used for this or something along those lines.
Rob Collie (00:47:53):
At its DNA, Power BI is a numerical aggregation tool. You take rows of data that have digits in them and you're performing things like sums and averages. And then you get really fancy and you start doing filtered and trended versions of those same calculations. Just to give people an idea here. So in those 53 transcripts, there are 781,355 words.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:48:17):
That's almost a million.
Rob Collie (00:48:18):
Yeah. If you extrapolate that from the fact that we're missing a few episodes, transcript wise, we're well over 800,000 words spoken on the finished podcast. Now, of course, the cutting room floor probably has a couple hundred thousand words. Right? That got cut out of, for sure. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:48:34):
No doubt.
Rob Collie (00:48:34):
So we've definitely spoken over a million words, but thanks to you, the audience has been spared that 200,000 word cruft.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:48:43):
They weren't ready for all of those words.
Rob Collie (00:48:46):
They weren't. And so many of them are like, blah, blah, blah. Like um's and ah's and stuff.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:48:51):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:48:52):
So to do the kinds of analysis that you're about to hear, some of them is a little bit more straightforward. So for example, 321,000 of those 781,000ish words were spoken by me. If you're using Power or Query to count the number of words in a sentence, which is sort of how the original version of this model works, now you've just got a number and it's got a person's name next to it. And so it rolls up really easily, right? And so you can really quickly find out what my total is. And you can find out that I speak for 41.2% of the air time of the show. If you just base it off of word count, which is I'm sure a very, very, very good approximation of air time. Right? And I was concerned...
Luke Pirozzoli (00:49:32):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:33):
I was concerned when I was running these numbers that I was going to find out that I was like 65% of the air time, and I wasn't letting guests talk. But 41,2% and Tom at 6.9%. So even combined, the two hosts are under 50%.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:49:47):
A great number.
Rob Collie (00:49:49):
But the place where it gets tricky is when you start talking about word uniqueness, right? So these aren't sentences with numbers anymore. Right? It's like the actual words matter. So Hugh Millen is the champion in one sense, which is 109 of the words that he spoke on his podcast episode were and are completely unique words in the history of the show. No one else has ever used any of those 109 words before him or after him. And if he said it and I repeated it back to him, it wouldn't count. It wouldn't be one of the 109. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:50:22):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:50:25):
Like to do that analysis is nuts, right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:50:29):
Like to think to do it or to actually do it?
Rob Collie (00:50:33):
I mean, okay. So on the one hand, I knew that Power BI could do it before I started.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:50:36):
Okay. That helps.
Rob Collie (00:50:38):
But like the fact that... It's just like every now and then you use the tool for a purpose that's so far outside of its original DNA. Its original origin story and it still just breezes through it. And you just sit there and it's just amazing. I haven't had this feeling for a while because I don't get to use the tools nearly as much as I used to.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:50:57):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:50:57):
You almost feel like you're inventing something, right? If you're working with a tool set that allows you to feel like you're inventing, that's pretty awesome. It's a real testament to just the incredible nature of the tool set. And it did not bog down.
Rob Collie (00:51:12):
Like if you think about it in a really dumb sense. If you have 800,000 words and you need to compare one word to all the other 800,000 words, but you need to do that for all of the words, you're constantly having to do 800,000 squared.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:51:26):
Ooh.
Rob Collie (00:51:26):
String comparisons, which would just melt your machine every time you click the filter. But the thing is just like, "No. No big deal. I got you." You make a click and it's like, "Yeah, lay up. Here you go."
Luke Pirozzoli (00:51:37):
Just handles it.
Rob Collie (00:51:38):
"Here's your new results." Right? Going into unique words. The reason for it was because of our now ongoing Wordigami joke. Like when someone says a word on the show, we're like, "Ooh, big word. Fancy." It's the first time we've ever heard the word on the show, Wordigami. We now have the technology, folks. We are going to, if you go look at our Twitter account. You're going to be seeing.... Already. We've already... Some of these have already been shared. We're going to be showing the Wordigami word clouds for words that were first used on a particular episode. Now, if they're used later, fine. That original episode still gets to claim they were the one that introduced it and their Wordigami word cloud will have that word in it. And the subsequent episode won't. So it gets harder and harder to score a Wordigami over time.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:52:18):
Yes, it does. And that's what... That was my question. It seems like the first episode or the first handful would have the distinct advantage.
Rob Collie (00:52:24):
Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:52:24):
Hugh's episode, I think, was in the top, like the first 10 maybe. I don't remember.
Rob Collie (00:52:28):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. So, even in the chart that I've shared privately behind the scenes with y'all, I filtered out the first few episodes. It just skews the entire chart. Someone gets to be the first person to use the word the.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:52:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:52:40):
Nope, that shouldn't count. But also to make the word cloud more interesting. This is where, again, where things get even crazier. I found a premium source of data that examine like a billion words of random sample of English language and ranks the top 60,000 root words. And I think the top 200 and something thousand words in terms of their usage within the English language. So when you see us posting these Wordigami's, the words that show up there... First of all, were never used on a previous episode. Secondly, the sizing of the word is determined by a very proprietary formula that blends the rarity of the word in the English language with the number of times it was used in the episode. So rarer words get a bigger representation in the word cloud than really common words. That just happened to be the first time it was used. Right? So like archeology, it looms large in Donald Farmer's Wordigami.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:53:41):
Yeah. That makes sense. That does make sense.
Rob Collie (00:53:45):
Yeah. Goblin, I think, was only maybe used once, but it's in there. It scores highly. So it's impressive. We might even do some blog post, something to talk about sort of how this was all put together. It's a neat little model.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:54:00):
The output is cool too. It's pretty. It's really cool.
Rob Collie (00:54:03):
That's what Power BI does, man. It makes the stuff pretty. Other thing I was going to share is that in terms of airtime, the guests who have consumed the most airtime. Here's the top five. Shishir Mehrotra, 76.2% of his episode was him speaking.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:54:20):
That blows my mind.
Rob Collie (00:54:21):
Yeah. John Hancock, 74.6. Chris Rae, 71.4. Jen Stirrup 66.0%. Chandoo 65.6%. So the top five are all founders or co-founders of their own business.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:54:40):
Ah.
Rob Collie (00:54:40):
Kind of interesting. Right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:54:41):
Maybe more assertive individuals.
Rob Collie (00:54:43):
And It might be, you get used to it, right? You get used to talking if you found your own business, even if you don't want to, it's going to come for you, right?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:54:50):
Yeah. You can't avoid it. Right?
Rob Collie (00:54:51):
But also, in a way, the companies that they found are like ways of expressing an idea and a feeling that these people had. Expression sort of was there before even the company happened. And so it makes sense, I guess, in a lot of ways. Right? But it was neat to see that. That's not random.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:55:10):
That is a deep analysis, Rob. That's pretty good. Like I never would've thought that.
Rob Collie (00:55:14):
The next four are all, in terms of airtime, are all current or former Microsoft employees. Adam Saxton, Donald Farmer, Denny Lee, Chris Finlan, and Jeff Sagarin rounds out the top 10, which is amazing. That was a two guest episode. There were four people talking on that episode, two hosts, two guests, and he still pulled down 61.9% of the words in that episode. Rebounds. He's a rebounder. He's pulling down those words. It's Sunday evening, this is the holiday week addition. We should go spend some more time with our families. Luke, I appreciate you jumping in here for the final bit on a Sunday. And don't forget as the music trails off at the end of this episode, Rob calls the Love Doctors from what like 2018, maybe 2017. I think it was '18.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:56:01):
Yeah, that should be right in there.
Rob Collie (00:56:01):
I think it was 2018.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:56:03):
Yeah. What a great moment.
Rob Collie (00:56:05):
Yeah, it was really funny.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:56:06):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
Dano (00:56:20):
As promised.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:56:21):
Yeah, my buddy's on.
Dano (00:56:22):
We welcome Luke's childhood friend, Rob, to Real Radio and welcome to the Love Doctors, Rob. What's up?
Rob Collie (00:56:29):
Howdy everybody. How are you?
Dano (00:56:31):
Howdy, Rob.
Dr. Glenn (00:56:31):
All right, Rob.
Dano (00:56:32):
Great to hear from you, man. And thank you for calling in. We were telling stories. I don't know if you've heard the story. I'll give you the in brief on this, Rob. There was a 16 year old girl who was debating back and forth nervously about jumping off a 60 foot tall bridge into some water below and her 19 year old friend wasn't having her indecision. So she pushed her off of that bridge. Well, that girl that...
Rob Collie (00:56:54):
Ah.
Dano (00:56:54):
Do you remember the story? Did you see the story?
Rob Collie (00:56:56):
I have seen this. Yeah.
Dano (00:56:57):
Okay. The girl that did the pushing, the 19 year old teenage girl was sentenced yesterday or Wednesday to two days in jail and 35 hours of work, community service. She's got to do some work involved with that, Rob. But I thought to myself, let's tell the worst things you've ever done to a best friend story. And wouldn't you know it, Luke was the first to pony up with the story. And my apologies. How is your site nowadays?
Rob Collie (00:57:28):
Oh, my site's okay. Because the eyeball is mercifully spared, but it's more the psyche.
Dano (00:57:35):
The mental scarring.
Dr. Glenn (00:57:36):
Oh, no.
Dano (00:57:37):
The mental scar you've carried all these years and night sweat, night terrors. I'm not making light of the PTSD out there by any means, but, I mean.... You need medication for what you did, Luke, to your friend.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:57:50):
We won't even get into the bed wedding, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:57:52):
You SOB.
Dano (00:57:52):
Oh man.
Rob Collie (00:57:52):
Really?
Luke Pirozzoli (00:57:55):
No! This is me apologizing, man. This is me apologizing.
Dano (00:57:59):
That's a hell of an apology. You just said the guy wet his bed.
Dr. Glenn (00:58:03):
He probably still does.
Dano (00:58:05):
Rob, did you get a physical scar on your face from it?
Rob Collie (00:58:09):
I was told this was going to be a healing.
Dano (00:58:12):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:12):
It's not piling on.
Dano (00:58:15):
We're not... No. No wellness around here.
Announcer (00:58:18):
I hear he's a bed wetter.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:58:21):
Seriously rather... That's a good question, Rob, that pencil that I threw at you now. So let's...
Dano (00:58:27):
Back up so you can rehash the story please, Luke.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:58:30):
And you can fill in the details as you remember them, Rob. We were at your house. We were kids, maybe 10, 11, 12 in there. And we played role playing games, including Dungeons and dragons. And we were arguing over something. Do you remember what we were arguing over?
Rob Collie (00:58:45):
Yeah. Doesn't surprise me that you've forgotten.
Dano (00:58:54):
Gee, what's he alluding to?
Rob Collie (00:58:55):
See the mind flayer had its back turned, and everybody knows that it doesn't get its dex bonus onto hit when it's got its back turned. And my Fort team on the D20 was more than sufficient to hit the mind flayer and interrupt the mind drain that it was casting on the cleric.
Dano (00:59:13):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:14):
You said it still kept its dex bonus. And that was just, it just kind of escalated from there, didn't it?
Dano (00:59:20):
Oh man.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:59:21):
Boy, that memory isn't imprinted on your brain at all. Jesus.
Rob Collie (00:59:24):
Yeah, not at all.
Luke Pirozzoli (00:59:25):
Now, it's coming back to me and there was a violent act perpetrated by you. The way that you had your... Rob sharpened... He took pride in the sharpening of his pencils. Like they were all even, they were all like needle sharp, and all did I was just fling one of the pencils towards, unfortunately, your head almost gouging out your eye in the process.
Rob Collie (00:59:49):
Yeah. I mean, the sharpness of those pencils might be a sign that maybe my problem started a little before. Rain Man obsession with those pencils.
Dano (01:00:00):
Oh, I'm with you.
Rob Collie (01:00:02):
Yeah. If I remember it, actually the lead of that pencil actually stuck just sort of beneath the surface skin.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:00:10):
It did.
Rob Collie (01:00:10):
To my eye. We were just like sitting there in shock, like, "Okay, that just happened."
Dano (01:00:15):
Were you horribly scarred? You could no longer get dates. Women would run screaming from you because you were so horribly disfigured.
Dr. Glenn (01:00:22):
Yeah. It looked like one of those gang tattoos with the tear drop.
Rob Collie (01:00:25):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been trying to figure out my whole adult life where it all kind of went wrong. The therapists have gone through all the obvious candidates. Like my parents divorce, the death of a pet. That kind of thing. That never led anywhere. It always comes back to this. It comes back to this crucial moment in my formation and I never got an apology, or more importantly for the justice of it all, an acknowledgement that the mind flayer really should have taken that mace to the back of the head.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:02):
It not about the injury. It's more about the game. That's how serious my friend Rob is about his gaming.
Dano (01:01:07):
Hey, once a nerd, always a nerd.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:09):
You're damn right.
Dano (01:01:09):
And you own it. Own it.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:12):
Yeah. Rob, I do want to take this time to...
Dano (01:01:14):
Hold on. I think we need the appropriate violins, if you don't mind. Or maybe Lonely Man, Jimmy. If you wouldn't mind, Lonely Man would be the perfect bet music is... Luke, why you looking trite over there, man? Good for you.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:29):
Well, this is a healing moment for all of us.
Dano (01:01:30):
I can hear it. I know Rob is in need of it.
Rob Collie (01:01:33):
If only I were there to see the look of contrition.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:36):
Oh, you can go to a realradio943.com and click on the Love Doctor's webcam and see my ugly mug right in your face.
Dano (01:01:43):
And you can see... Rob, you can see the remorse.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:49):
Sponsored by...
Rob Collie (01:01:49):
I'm going to have to get the recording of this. I'm not near a device at the moment.
Dano (01:01:55):
That's all right. It'll be on a podcast for you.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:01:56):
By the way, this apology on the webcam is sponsored by Tropical Auto Sales.
Dano (01:02:00):
Thank you, Tropical Auto Sales. Hey, even our apologies we get paid for.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:02:04):
That's right. Rob, I am so sorry that I almost destroyed your life.
Dano (01:02:11):
Yeah.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:02:12):
By throwing that pencil at your eye, I was really aiming for the other eye.
Dano (01:02:20):
Nice, Luke.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:02:22):
And I'm really sorry if after all this time... I didn't realize every time I moved my hand, you flinched. I mean, I know of the other psychological trauma that I've inflicted on you over the years. Nothing compares to this moment. And I just want to say that I'm truly sorry. I am really, truly sorry that I almost again destroyed you life.
Dano (01:02:49):
Blinded him, blinded him.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:02:51):
Blinded you.
Dr. Glenn (01:02:52):
The man...
Dano (01:02:52):
Oh, Rob, hang on, because yeah. I'll be honest with you. It wasn't enough for me, but yeah. Glen, what?
Dr. Glenn (01:02:58):
The man, Luke... The man probably has never picked up a pencil for the rest of his life since that day.
Dano (01:03:05):
Failed every Scantron test because of you. He's scared of them.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:03:08):
That's not true. Rob. My friend Rob is a genius.
Dano (01:03:11):
Yeah. He didn't...
Luke Pirozzoli (01:03:12):
Wait, just real quick.
Dano (01:03:14):
Think the answer. Go ahead.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:03:15):
What was your triple major, Rob?
Rob Collie (01:03:17):
Computer science, maths, and philosophy.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:03:21):
Triple major y'all.
Dr. Glenn (01:03:22):
Wow.
Dano (01:03:22):
Okay.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:03:23):
And he went to a very esteemed school.
Rob Collie (01:03:26):
My parents bought me in with...
Dano (01:03:27):
Good for you.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:03:30):
You can ask Dr. Dre.
Rob Collie (01:03:32):
Yeah.
Dano (01:03:34):
I don't know. Rob, I could hear the remorseful tone, but I don't think it's enough. What are you willing to do for Rob? What would you like Luke to do for you, Rob?
Rob Collie (01:03:44):
I think we need to replay that whole scenario. We need to relive it. They call it experiencing. It's a form of therapy.
Dano (01:03:51):
Okay. All right. So you need to recreate.
Rob Collie (01:03:53):
We need to reexperience that whole scenario in a safe place.
Dano (01:03:57):
Yeah. Okay.
Rob Collie (01:03:58):
Where I know that it's safe.
Dano (01:03:59):
All right.
Rob Collie (01:04:00):
We can arrange that at some point. I'm sure. But that's what needs to happen, I think.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:04:05):
So does that mean I have to prevent myself from throwing the pencil at you or I have to throw it at you again?
Dano (01:04:09):
No, I think you need to jam a pencil in your eye.
Dr. Glenn (01:04:12):
Oh, there's not going to to be a pencil anywhere near that game if Rob has his way.
Dano (01:04:16):
And a really sharp pencil.
Rob Collie (01:04:19):
Yeah. Like we're in a padded room with nothing.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:04:25):
Just think, Rob...
Rob Collie (01:04:26):
Some missiles.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:04:26):
How cool do people look with eye patches? Like you could have had a cool glass eye like Bill the Butcher in Gangs of New York or worn an eye patch.
Dano (01:04:33):
Eye patches are cool, Rob. I'm sorry.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:04:35):
Like Representative Crenshaw. He looks cool as hell.
Dano (01:04:37):
He's kind of a badass just by the look. Does that make you feel better, Luke? When you tell him that?
Luke Pirozzoli (01:04:42):
Oh, he would've looked badass with a patch or a glass eye.
Dano (01:04:45):
And a fake eye. Does that make you feel better for what you did to this guy?
Dr. Glenn (01:04:48):
Yes.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:04:50):
I might gouge my own eye out just so I can have a patch.
Dano (01:04:53):
I think you need to. You know how they say fall on the sword. I think you need to put a pencil in your eye and just fall forward, stiff as a board, and let it hit the floor.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:05:00):
All right. We'll do it on Facebook Live.
Dano (01:05:03):
When we get around to it.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:05:04):
Yeah. Sometime.
Dano (01:05:05):
All right, Rob. My deepest and sincerest apologies for Luke's actions 25 years ago, 30 years ago. I'm sorry.
Rob Collie (01:05:12):
Well, it means so much coming from you.
Dano (01:05:13):
Thank you, Rob. Thank you so much.
Dr. Glenn (01:05:15):
Yeah, we have to apologize for our cohorts behavior, man. That's what it's come down to.
Dano (01:05:20):
I mean, right off the bat, Rob knows I would've been a better friend. Shame on you.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:05:23):
He's only been on the phone with you for nine minutes, and you're already a better friend.
Dano (01:05:27):
That's true. This is true.
Dr. Glenn (01:05:29):
Rob, call me anytime, man. We'll get together for beers.
Rob Collie (01:05:33):
What are you doing next Thursday?
Dano (01:05:36):
I'll be here for a while, but I'll have Luke drive me to our location.
Rob Collie (01:05:40):
Sounds great.
Dano (01:05:41):
Okay. He can dictate our entire conversation in sharp pencil. That's a beautiful thing.
Rob Collie (01:05:48):
Thank you so much for facilitating this intervention.
Dano (01:05:51):
Yeah. What we had here, Rob, is a moment of closure.
Rob Collie (01:05:55):
Yeah, it was touching.
Dr. Glenn (01:05:57):
It was.
Rob Collie (01:05:57):
I feel touched.
Dano (01:05:57):
I'm touched.
Rob Collie (01:05:57):
Do you feel touched?
Dano (01:06:00):
I do. I always feel touched. You should feel me at seven o'clock.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:02):
I'm touching myself right now, Rob.
Dr. Glenn (01:06:03):
People tell me I'm touched all the time.
Dano (01:06:05):
No, you definitely... He is definitely touched.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:08):
Explains a lot of my behavior.
Dano (01:06:10):
Rob, you can make a case study out of this guy.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:14):
Rob, it was good to hear from me again. I'll give you a buzz sometime over the next couple of days.
Rob Collie (01:06:20):
Sounds good, man.
Dano (01:06:21):
Take care, Rob. Thanks for the story. And again, I'm sorry.
Dr. Glenn (01:06:24):
God, we have to apologize for him.
Dano (01:06:27):
Awful. I bet... Yeah, what?
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:28):
I thought that went well.
Dr. Glenn (01:06:29):
I think so too.
Dano (01:06:29):
Well, for you, maybe.
Dr. Glenn (01:06:31):
I hope he feels better.
Dano (01:06:32):
Yeah. He's still getting the night tremors.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:34):
I'm telling you that dude is a frigging genius.
Dano (01:06:36):
I don't doubt it.
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:37):
I think he got like 1550 on his SATs. Yeah, it was ridiculous.
Dano (01:06:43):
What?
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:43):
Yeah, it was... That guy is amazing.
Rob Collie (01:06:44):
Hey look, did you leave the part in about my amazing SAT scores?
Luke Pirozzoli (01:06:47):
Oh, oh, of course, I did.
Rob Collie (01:06:49):
That's my man. There's an achievement that means absolutely nothing
The data gene lurks everywhere, including deep in the heart of Texas High School Football! Enter Coach Chase Hargis, Defensive coach of the Magnolia High School Football team in Texas and also a data guy, who asked P3 Adaptive to help with a very specific data problem...how to visualize football data so as to give an edge to his players? The solution is CoverHawk and has introduced Power BI to an unusual audience in high school football players and coaches!
References in this episode:
CoverHawk-A Football Visualization Tool
Charles Barkley on Analytics
SPOILER ALERT: The results of the South Carroll High Dragons 6A D1 state semifinals game against Duncanville
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Coach Hargis. It's not his actual first name. We often talk about how the data gene lurks everywhere and today's conversation is just further proof of something that we already believe fervently anyway. Because of Coach Hargis this past fall in Texas High School Football, there's been nearly a 100 high school football players unknowingly using Power BI. So right now, pause this intro, pause this podcast, open up a browser and go to www.coverhawk.app. Go take a quick look around that homepage and I'll wait. Coverhawk is a 100% Power BI embedded site in public eye. You only have access to the homepage. So the real guts of it is behind the scenes, but it's truly an example of the versatility of Power BI. And it's actually really Power BI being used almost 100% in that visualization role.
Rob Collie (00:56):
And that's a role that most of us Power BI people tend to bristle at like when Power BI gets pigeonholed by some unknowing character as a visualization tool, we all know it's much, much more than that, but CoverHawk is almost the textbook case for the power of visualization. But it's as simple as this, thousands of data points produced by dozens and dozens of hours of film review by coaches. Before CoverHawk really didn't go anywhere. You really couldn't get any traction with these high school kids, with CoverHawk though, the adoption and uptake of all of this information, all of this data has become so much fun and so unconscious that they all now refer to it as the Hawk. So file this episode under the headings of unexpected places to find the data gene and unexpected applications of Power BI. I hope you enjoy it. We've certainly enjoyed our time working with Coach Hargis, looking forward to next season. So let's get into it.
Announcer (01:54):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please.
Announcer (01:58):
This is the raw data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to www.p3adaptive.com. Raw data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (02:18):
Welcome to the show Coach Hargis. Is that your first name coach? Is that actually your given first name that was under birth certificate.
Coach Chase Hargis (02:24):
A lot of people call me that, but no, my original name is Chase Hargis.
Rob Collie (02:29):
I liked seeing how everybody just greet each other as coach at the convention. Hey coach. Hey. Hi. How you doing coach? Hey coach. Everybody used exactly the same name.
Coach Chase Hargis (02:37):
You can't miss.
Rob Collie (02:38):
That'd be amazing for someone like me that has trouble remembering names. Just walk around, calling everybody the same thing. It'd be awesome.
Coach Chase Hargis (02:46):
Even if you don't coach, I still call you coach, just because it's just a habit.
Rob Collie (02:50):
Yeah, it just becomes muscle memory after a while. How about you tell us in your own words how you and I met. That'll bring us right into the thick of the data.
Coach Chase Hargis (03:00):
I was actually scrolling through some pictures today of how me and you met. I was looking for a scatter plot visual for my football kids on how to see where opposing quarterbacks are throwing the football. And I just was Googling all kinds of stuffs quarterback spray chart, quarterback scatter plot, 3D visual, this and that and the other. I actually had a couple of pictures saved on my phone. I stumbled across today, but I clicked on this one picture I believe it was your fantasy football deal and it took me to a webpage that said, if you would like further information type in your email address. And I unfortunately the go getter type and I'm not afraid for people to tell me no so I typed it in and away we went.
Rob Collie (03:47):
So you got on the phone with some people from our team and they were like trying to treat you as a potential normal business client. And that didn't really fit your budget, but let's go back just really briefly. So you're defensive coordinator, defensive coach at a high school in Texas. Yes?
Coach Chase Hargis (04:04):
Yes sir. I am the defensive coordinator at Magnolia high school in North Houston.
Rob Collie (04:10):
North Houston. Yes, indeed. And you're out on Google. You've got this thought in your head. There's got to be a better way to show these players on my team what to expect from the team we're going to play next week, right?
Coach Chase Hargis (04:24):
Yes, sir. Our season was over so I was just going forward looking for something that I could give my kids to help us do better. And I knew something had to be out there. I just didn't know how I was going to use it or get it to my kids.
Rob Collie (04:37):
You hear this Luke he's from Texas he keeps calling me sir. Totally not warranted. Don't do that. You're not going to be able to resist again. It's muscle memory.
Coach Chase Hargis (04:48):
That's right.
Rob Collie (04:49):
You'll end up calling me coach here in a moment. To the people who don't care about or really know anything about American Football. We hear a lot about the power of visualization in our line of work. There are professionals in the quote and quote data industry, this is their entire brand is visualization. That's how they define themselves as a visualization expert. And I can't think of an example, other than yours, that's better than what you've got in terms of the power of visualization. I know this because we've spent so much time working together on this. Your weekly workflow during a football season, you spend a lot of time watching film. It's not film anymore. It's all digital, but we still call it film because that's cool, right?
Coach Chase Hargis (05:37):
That's right.
Rob Collie (05:37):
So you watch film on your upcoming opponent. You watch a whole bunch of their games and you've got this, we'll call it an interface. But basically you've got this Excel like table that's plugged into the software where you're reviewing plays and you're manually coding in what happened on each play. So you're doing a lot of data entry.
Coach Chase Hargis (05:59):
A ton.
Rob Collie (06:00):
How many rows do you think, and I know it's different each week, because there's more film available on certain opponents than others. But how many plays will you watch on an opposing quarterback, opposing offense?
Coach Chase Hargis (06:13):
We just lost in the first round of the playoffs, but an average High School Football team in Texas runs about 50 to 60 plays of offense a game. So we had 10 games of this opponent, because this would be our 11th game. First round of the playoffs and our little platform records how much film you watch. And so I watched 16 hours of film that week from Sunday through Thursday. And yeah, I'm entering play calls and data for 55 plays a game times 10.
Rob Collie (06:45):
So you end up with between 500 and 600 rows at least for this past game entered into an Excel table. It not really Excel, but it looks like Excel and it's many columns wide.
Coach Chase Hargis (06:57):
As many as I want it to be.
Rob Collie (06:59):
You can't see it all at once, right? You got to scroll left and right even.
Coach Chase Hargis (07:02):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (07:03):
Yeah. So people listening to this can understand 500 plus row spreadsheet with more columns than fit on your monitor. So then naturally you just turn around, right? And you give that table of data to your players in raw form and say, go study this.
Coach Chase Hargis (07:19):
Go get up.
Rob Collie (07:20):
Go ingest it.
Coach Chase Hargis (07:22):
Yeah. I wish it was that easy.
Rob Collie (07:24):
Which is not what you do.
Coach Chase Hargis (07:25):
No, sir.
Rob Collie (07:26):
For example, when you're watching a play, you're writing down coding into this table, whether it was a pass play or a run play, who they threw it to, how far they had to throw it, which area of the field they throw it to, all kinds of things like that, right? So that's why there's so many columns. There's so many things to encode from this data. And so by the time you're done with this 16 hours of film review, how much time do you think your players, the kids on your team, how much time do you think they have to study up on what you've done? Do they put in 16 hours?
Coach Chase Hargis (08:00):
Definitely not. No. We have to actually teach them how to watch film, believe it or not. Because they just want to throw on a game and watch the game. Like they're watching Monday Night Football or something. So we have to teach them how to watch it. But one of my linebackers, one of my little mini me on the field as I call him, he watched about five hours one week, I think was the most this season. So they've got a lot of other stuff going on.
Rob Collie (08:23):
Yeah, of course, they do. And a lot of life changes going on for them in high school. It's a busy time. So before you had the visualization that we built, what were you using to convey your opponents tendencies to your team?
Coach Chase Hargis (08:40):
The platform that we use that you talked about to watch film has a literal three by three grid of where a team is throwing the football.
Rob Collie (08:50):
Like a tic-tac toe visual.
Coach Chase Hargis (08:51):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, I don't know if my kids ever looked at that or got anything off those numbers, but yeah, it just was very vague. And I know where they're throwing the football by all the film I watch and what I call the plays and whatnot. But I was looking for something that could help them further understand where teams are trying to throw the football on us.
Rob Collie (09:11):
So what we have of course is a Power BI scatter plot. It's a 2D scatter plat with an image of a football field and we created something called CoverHawk using Power BI embedded. How many players on your team on an average week have been logging into www.coverhawk.app and unknowingly using a Power BI embedded solution to scout the opponent each week.
Coach Chase Hargis (09:38):
We had 36 players on our varsity defense this year and it better have been all 36 of them, but I got a feeling it was most of them.
Rob Collie (09:46):
Unlike the usual Power BI solution where there's calculations involved and there's cross referencing, the average business data model and DAX and formulas that go with it are performing a lot of digestion of the data before that data is fed to the visual canvas. But in our case, in this CoverHawk solution, we don't really do any calculation at all. It's more about just every single row gets displayed. I taught you how to take your exports from the film system. You're exporting to Excel, which by the way puts you in the same boat as everyone in business everywhere.
Rob Collie (10:29):
That's what they do. They've got some line of business system that they work with and they press Excel export and then their real work begins there. So you're exporting to Excel and importing that into your Power BI workbook, your PBIX file. And then you're publishing it to our P3 Adaptive Power BI tenant. But the players aren't logging into the P3 Adaptive Power BI tenant. They're logging into www.coverhawk.app or .app is the top level domain instead of.com. So CoverHawk is the name of the solution and they log in there. That's when we're using Power BI embedded. And do any of them know that it's Power BI?
Coach Chase Hargis (11:13):
Not at all? No.
Rob Collie (11:14):
Has anyone even asked you?
Coach Chase Hargis (11:16):
Grownups have asked me.
Rob Collie (11:17):
You haven't had any kids come up to you going, Hey, how'd you do this?
Coach Chase Hargis (11:20):
No couple of dads are interested. They've seen it.
Rob Collie (11:24):
Really. That's cool. Spoiler alert. I'm sure this is going to shock you. I did not play organized football at any level past like second grade flag. But if I had been on your team, I would've probably been asking you how you did this.
Coach Chase Hargis (11:37):
We're not at that level on our defense.
Rob Collie (11:40):
I actually think that's great. When technology is at its best, you really don't even notice it. You don't wonder about the why, you don't wonder about how the sausage was made. You're just like, this is good sausage. How much interaction have you gotten over their shoulder? Did you hold a training session to show them how to use it? How did you do all that?
Coach Chase Hargis (11:58):
So yeah, we started off with a training session. I mean, we have a film room which I'm sitting in right now and made them bring all their laptops and Chromebooks or whatever they had and Hey, we're going to go to www.coverhawk.app. Here's our login, and here we go. I'm going to show you guys everything you can do in it. And as far as that, when I haven't really looked over any shoulders, but they come up to me a lot at practice, even they'll tell me like, yeah, I saw he's throwing it right here a lot to this receiver that makes it worthwhile for me. It's like, yes, they are using it.
Rob Collie (12:29):
Has anyone even come up to you and said, I'm not getting it. Has anyone volunteered that they're struggling with it?
Coach Chase Hargis (12:33):
No. A couple of kids came up to me and said, I can't get back to the original. They wouldn't know how to reset their filters or whatever. That was one problem we ran into. They're like, I've gotten all the way down to three dots and I can't get back to the whole picture. So we had to go back over. There's a Reset Filters button to take you back to start and then you can dive in from there.
Rob Collie (12:53):
That's good. That's a really good question. That is a really good sign when someone is asking you a question like that. A, it shows that they're willing to be vulnerable, right? They're willing to show you that they can't figure something out. It also very clearly signals that they're using it and they're actually using it in an advanced way. We didn't mess around with this thing we allowed I don't know how many different kinds of interactive visuals. It's at least double digit places is in this report that you can click.
Rob Collie (13:17):
And I messed up even right there when you told me about that problem, the fact that I named it the Reset Filters button, is a mistake. That word filter doesn't appear anywhere else does it? As they're clicking around they're not thinking about that as filters. I am. So in CoverHawk V3, let's call this year's version V2. In V3 of CoverHawk Start Over would probably be a better label for that button. Clear All or something. I don't know, but the word filters shouldn't be in there. My fault, your high school Magnolia used CoverHawk this year made it to the state playoffs. Not all teams make the playoffs it's an achievement just to even be there, right? You're very disappointed that you lost in the first round as I'm I, but there is one other team in the state of Texas that is also using CoverHawk right now with your assistance and they are still in it.
Coach Chase Hargis (14:10):
It is my Alma mater, the Southlake Carroll Dragons. They are undefeated once again, and in the state semi-finals for the State Championship of Texas High School Football. So they are one of four teams remaining in their division.
Rob Collie (14:23):
And what division is this that they're in? There's different size schools, right?
Coach Chase Hargis (14:28):
Yeah. We go all the way up to 6A and there's a 6A division one, which is your bigger schools and a 6A division two. They are 6A division one. They are the biggest classification.
Rob Collie (14:38):
They're in the final four of the big leagues which would sound like it would mean a lot until you realize just how casual the State of Texas is about their High School Football. I mean, it's really not that big a deal.
Coach Chase Hargis (14:49):
Yeah. We don't care about it at all.
Rob Collie (14:50):
Yeah. It's not a religion or anything.
Coach Chase Hargis (14:54):
Nobody just watches 16 hours for no reason.
Rob Collie (14:58):
They don't make TV shows about it.
Coach Chase Hargis (15:02):
Movies...
Rob Collie (15:03):
Friday Night Lights was based in like what? Delaware?
Coach Chase Hargis (15:06):
That's right. Rhode Island Football.
Rob Collie (15:08):
I'm pretty sure it was Texas. So it's a pretty high intensity thing. So CoverHawk, power BI embedded is in the final four of division one 6A.
Coach Chase Hargis (15:18):
That's right. We are doing it.
Rob Collie (15:21):
End of podcast. Mike dropped. Walk off. Yeah. Southlake Carroll is a name that even I recognized from my high school years, because back when USA today used to rank, I guess they still probably do that rank. It's just one of the funniest things ever in my opinion, which is a national newspaper ranking high school football teams, like having a national ranking when there's so few common opponents probably not even playing the same rules necessarily everywhere. I've heard about them for a long time. This is a storied football team. You say it's your alma mater. So you played for them, didn't you?
Coach Chase Hargis (15:52):
I did. Coming up on 20 years ago.
Rob Collie (15:55):
So you have two levels of user now don't you? The players on your team and you have the players on Southlake Carroll, but they don't really talk to you I wouldn't think.
Coach Chase Hargis (16:06):
The players do not talk to me. Yes, sir.
Rob Collie (16:09):
That'd be a little too much, right?
Coach Chase Hargis (16:10):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (16:11):
That second level that I'm talking about is you've got a coach or coaches at Southlake Carroll that you're supporting. Has that been a lot of fun?
Coach Chase Hargis (16:19):
It has because my good, good friend is their defensive coordinator. I mean, I was in his wedding and we lived together for four years and the guy that is running their spreadsheets for CoverHawk is my principal's son. And I actually helped get him the job at Southlake Carroll. So it has been a pleasure working with those guys.
Rob Collie (16:38):
I've told you numerous times how impressed I've been at your ability to keep your spreadsheet clean. There's nothing in this interface on this website called Huddle that does anything resembling data validation. So you can fat finger all kinds of garbage into that 500 row by 40 column absolute mess of a grid. And then of course, when you feed it into Power BI and a power query, heaven help you. The power query for that thing was almost a 100% written by me. So you get all these incredibly mysterious refresh errors and every now and then you've had to come back to me and ask me like, Hey, what's going on here? And I go track it down. And when I go track it down, I'm like, yeah, there's no way Coach Hargis could have tracked this down on his own.
Rob Collie (17:25):
I'm assuming that I'm only seeing the tip of the iceberg, that you are catching data quality issues, refresh issues that you have been diagnosing and fixing on your own without asking me, because you don't seem like the kind of person who asked me to help you until you've wasted eight hours of your own time trying to fix it yourself. Am I right?
Coach Chase Hargis (17:43):
You are right. I mean, until I'm about to pull my hair out is when I come to you, but I scour those things constantly looking for anything. And at least I know the kid that's working with him at Southlake so I can get onto him and like, gosh, you put this here and you're not supposed to put that there.
Rob Collie (17:58):
A future production version of CoverHawk would have much better data validation on the data entry side and or not just data validation. Because the problem is we don't control the Huddle website. The most convenient place to be entering the data is not one that we control. So we can't add data validation there. We can't catch them when they accidentally have the shift key down when they press one and they get an exclamation point, which happens to look awfully lot like a one when you're scanning that huge grid of numbers with your eyeballs, right?
Coach Chase Hargis (18:31):
Sure it does.
Rob Collie (18:32):
Or you've entered a code for a team that doesn't match the list of teams and the other table. In a environment that we controlled end to end, we could do much better, but we could also instead add a pre-checker, a tool that looks at your data before it gets ingested into Power BI and scans for these 10 and most frequent mistakes and identifying them specifically, that would be a really helpful thing to write, but we didn't have time to do that this year so we just made that you.
Rob Collie (18:58):
You really took to this and I have tried to explain, for example, the power query settings like that aim the folder to a different place, because I'll build this thing and it's pointing to a Rob folder on the Rob hard drive and then I send it to you and you've got to change it and point it to, I haven't even been nice to you. I haven't even done the thing where if it has the back slash at the end of the path, it won't double it up. But if it isn't there, I could have been nice and done that handling but no, I make you leave the back slash off or put it, I forget which you either have too few or many back slashes, right? Like it's a very sensitive thing that I've given you. We were just playing around at the time, like back...
Coach Chase Hargis (19:37):
That's right.
Rob Collie (19:37):
When it was the No Checkdown site, I didn't really worry about any of this stuff. So we went to this conference in, what was it July?
Coach Chase Hargis (19:44):
Mid-July.
Rob Collie (19:46):
Yeah, we did a booth. It's my first time being an exhibitor at a trade show, except for when I worked for Microsoft. And it's definitely the first time I've ever been to a trade show and spent any amount of time there that wasn't software. It's so funny. Like it was the same cafeteria lunch experience. Everything's the same, the way you walk into the trade show, it could be exposition hall, all of it's the same. It's just that most of the booths that you go to actually have physical things you can touch. There were racks of weights and remote control tackling dummies and most famously for me, these gigantic inflatable tunnels that you can buy for your team to run on out of at the beginning of the game. We were there a day early, right? During setup day and the tunnels were inflated. And so you didn't even really hardly knew me at all at that point and I'm handing you my phone saying, Hey, will you do me a favor and record me just running out of this tunnel.
Coach Chase Hargis (20:48):
That's right. We were about 25 minutes into person to person contact.
Rob Collie (20:53):
So I take my flip flops off and then I went back to my hotel and set it to the Rocky theme and put some slow mo in it to hide the fact that I was running so slowly. And yeah, it's a treasured keepsake for me now. But what were you thinking at that moment when this guy hands you his phone and said, come on, let's do this?
Coach Chase Hargis (21:12):
It was a great blow up. You couldn't miss the opportunity. It was one of the biggest I've ever seen. I thought, at least he's embracing what we're doing here and he's not just totally laughing the whole time.
Rob Collie (21:21):
No, I was immersed. I wish we could have had more time when it had like a real camera crew we could have gone around and filmed, nerd goes to the football conference type of skit where we go back we need to bring a crew.
Coach Chase Hargis (21:34):
It'd be a great documentary.
Rob Collie (21:35):
Three of us that went were me, you and Molly from here at P3. And at one point, Molly asked me when you weren't around, Rob, would you hire someone like Chase to work at P3? I'm like, heck yeah, totally. And so this comes back to this notion of the data gene. I think for most people listening, this just makes so much sense. Of course, you've got this big grid of data and of course you need a better visualization than the three by three ugly tells you nothing grid.
Rob Collie (22:06):
But I know better because the population of football coaches at any level, not just high school, but at any level who have come through our lead submission system, that population is one. It's you. You're the only one who has done that. And we didn't make any effort to advertise the old No Checkdown site. The one that you found before we created CoverHawk, we certainly didn't put keywords in there, like high school defensive coordinators. We weren't even thinking about it from the defensive side of the ball. So you found our visualization solution in spite of all of our efforts, as opposed to because of. I got to think you are working really hard to find this.
Rob Collie (22:53):
And then to follow that up again, I have tried to teach multiple people over the years, how to customize the settings in power query so that it can hydrate files from their hard drive instead. If it's a technical person I'm working with, they already know what they're doing. I don't have to tell them anything. I showed you once and you were off and running. I mean, you are the lowest maintenance data refreshing I have ever seen in this process. So yeah, you're one of those hybrids. You're up to your eyeballs in football, that's your subject matter. But you're thinking about it from a what's the better way perspective. How can we address this problem better? Which is real how most of the people who work at P3 started out. They're in Excel. They're discovering ways to solve problems and they're looking around the organization going, I can't believe we still do it this way. There's got to be something better. And then they find their way into Power BI and all of that.
Rob Collie (23:46):
That's just a long soliloquy saying, I think you're exceptional and I've really enjoyed crossing paths. We've enjoyed cooperating with you. One of the things that really struck me when we were at that conference was how I won't say that all of the high school coaches that I met, I wouldn't say that all of them were like this, but a large percentage of them really talked about themselves as educators even more than they talked about themselves as coaches. Wasn't about this obsession with football so much the thing that powers a lot of people in your profession that I met there is the improvement that they see in their team, in their individual players even over the course of a year or two, that developmental aspect. Was I getting an impression there that was correct?
Coach Chase Hargis (24:32):
Absolutely. I think a lot of guys that get into this profession, it's not that they were really good at football or played football at this college or anything like that. I mean, there is a lot of that, but I think there just invested in kids. And at the end of the day, I've got a bunch of friends in the business world that make a lot of money. And I obviously don't, they don't get why I'm doing what I'm doing. But at the end of the day, I get to play around with kids all day. And you guys are sitting in offices, dealing with grownups all day that don't care about you. So these kids look up to me and care about me. And at the end of the day, I get to mess around with them and help them get better at something they like doing and teach them a little something along the way.
Rob Collie (25:08):
Basically, infinitely small percentage of the players that come through your program are going to ultimately wind up in the pros, right? They're not going to go pro in football.
Coach Chase Hargis (25:18):
Absolutely not.
Rob Collie (25:19):
I'm sure that there are examples that have, so you're not directly preparing these kids for a career, not directly, but in hindsight, neither was my calculus teacher.
Coach Chase Hargis (25:31):
Mine either.
Rob Collie (25:32):
But overcoming adversity, learning to build new neural pathways. People don't really appreciate this I don't think most of the time. How much information processing goes into being an effective football player. It is insane. You're having in your team study. What was it? 500 to 600 data points.
Coach Chase Hargis (25:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (25:51):
I don't care how well visualized it is. The fact that this solution we've built needs to be interactive. You need to be able to see what they do on third down. You need to be able to see specifically how often they throw to this particular player and where. This is an enormous amount of data. And then these players have to go out there and in split second real time, diagnose things. This is an information processing game as old and as creaky as I am now in my middle age, if I could go out onto a football field, not an NFL football field, I'm talking about maybe like your football field, right?
Rob Collie (26:30):
If I could process information perfectly instantaneously, even a creaky body like mine would be an amazing asset on a football field, but my brain can't do that. My body can't do it and my brain can't do it. So I'm not close to being valuable on a football field, but I just think it is a really, really incredible how much data and information processing, whether you want call it data, whether you want to call it analytics it doesn't matter. Even the most old school football mentality still involves a tremendous amount of diagnosis, well, actually both sides of the ball. It's a tremendous amount of information processing, maybe more information processing in the game of American Football than any other sport.
Coach Chase Hargis (27:12):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (27:13):
So you're a data instructor, man. You're an analytics decision support. You're a lot more closely related to the BI industry than when I even thought going into this.
Coach Chase Hargis (27:22):
I appreciate that, but you could call it what you want, but it's fun. I know that much. Did you see the Charles Barkley quote on analytics recently?
Rob Collie (27:30):
Charles Barkley, Charles Barkley on analytics. Here we go.
Coach Chase Hargis (27:33):
"They made it up because all these rich dudes who own these teams want to get their son-in-law a job. They are just stats, like yoga. Yoga's nothing but stretching. I tell people yoga's just stretching. They gave it a different name and now they can charge you for it."
Rob Collie (27:48):
He's acknowledging that it's important. Stretching is important while he's reserving his right to think of yoga as silly. And he's saying the same thing about analytics.
Coach Chase Hargis (28:00):
Says they're statistics, they just changed the name. We're going to charge you for analytics now, but they just raise the price. It's nothing but statistics and stats.
Rob Collie (28:09):
See, this is good. This is progress. So first of all, Barkley is an American treasure. I think he's a national treasure. So it's always pained me given how much I like the guy that he has always been so anti-analytics. Now in his evolution of his attitude towards analytics, it sounds like he's softening a little bit, right? He's gone from saying analytics is stupid, it's crap, it's useless to saying essentially we've always had it, right? It's always been valuable. Now it's just got a new name. He's very slowly trying to adjust himself to be on the side of its valuable without saying he's changed his mind. Very sneaky, sir, Charles, very sneaky, but we caught you. We see what you're doing. What I think it's really interesting is that there is no analytics and I hinted at this earlier. There's zero analytics in what we've done for CoverHawk.
Coach Chase Hargis (29:02):
I agree.
Rob Collie (29:02):
It is just turning the data that you've already collected into a form that is visually digestible.
Coach Chase Hargis (29:10):
Yes.
Rob Collie (29:10):
The only parts we start to tow the line of analytics is the fact that while there is a data model behind it, so you can click on the Just Show Me Third Down and the visual updates. There's a brain behind the scenes. It's able to reflect that and revisualize just that subset of the data. And there are some numerical quantities on the field or on the report that show the average or the total net or whatever for that collection of plays. As far as analytics go, this is really, really, really simple stuff, right? On the far other side of analytics would be some system that's predicting what play they're going to call next.
Coach Chase Hargis (29:48):
Yes.
Rob Collie (29:49):
We're not in that ballpark at all. So I think that if Barkley were a high school football coach today, just like he likes to talk about the son-in-law of the team owner. If Barkley had a son and he was in high school right now, you'd be damn sure Barkley be coaching that football team. Barkley would like CoverHawk.
Coach Chase Hargis (30:08):
He'd love it.
Rob Collie (30:09):
The sin I'm about to describe is one that I have committed many times and I think less frequently with experience, but more frequently at the beginning. Which is getting carried away with the math, getting carried away with the technology. When a nerd gets a hold of something like this, like me, I did this 15 years ago plus, there's this arrogance or hubris that you're going to find something that the coaches didn't know. And you might, you go find something like that and then you can show it to him and the coaches is like, this isn't helpful. There's another quote. I think it's Doc Rivers when he was skewing analytics. And I think rightly so, he was saying, my analytics team comes up to me and tells me, Hey, do you know that Rajon Rondo gets 20 miles an hour in the open floor when he is on a breakaway with a dribble?
Rob Collie (30:56):
And Doc's like, get out of my office with that. And I think correctly, because it doesn't change anything that Doc Rivers is going to do, but there's this person in his office who's trying to present it like it's the coolest thing ever and is really important. It's not, it doesn't change his decisions. Doesn't change his coaching decision. Doesn't change anything about how he operates the team. And so the analytics that first came to the NBA for instance, probably were a lot of times tone deaf, but there are other things.
Rob Collie (31:26):
One of our other podcast guests, Wayne Winston and his friend Jeff Sagarin almost 20 years ago, they were helping Mark Cuban's Dallas Mavericks optimize their lineups and it was working. And so when you say analytics, it covers a lot of ground. It includes all the bad and inexperienced practitioners. It includes all the places where something really not so helpful was tried and maybe even trumpeted as amazing, even though it wasn't. And then of course the really, really helpful things, the ones that are truly, truly helpful. Well, teams don't typically like to talk about those secrets. Did you ever use the word analytics with your players? Would that have gotten their attention? Would that have been helpful?
Coach Chase Hargis (32:05):
No, absolutely not. Like I said, I leave the football guys be in the football guys, but I'm fortunate enough that one of my assistants, my linebackers coach does love data as much or maybe more than I do. And we like to throw the word around analytics to make us seem really smart at times.
Rob Collie (32:23):
You got to have the right audience. Don't say it when Barkley is in the room, but yeah, it's an instructional tool. We have some decisions to make don't we?
Coach Chase Hargis (32:31):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (32:32):
We have to talk about whether to continue to invest in CoverHawk as a potential business. I mean, it's certainly been a positive experience so far. I think for everybody involved, it's paid for itself. It's paid its bills, right? It's certainly been good for us. Building a consumer grade high school student proof Power BI embedded solution has been a really good forcing factor for us in terms of upping our Power BI embedded game. And it's also set us up in a place where we can pretty quickly clone that and do all kinds of other interesting things with it for demonstration sites and things like that. So we're going to be reusing that tech.
Coach Chase Hargis (33:16):
Right.
Rob Collie (33:18):
But whether or not to attempt to scale it and get a 100 schools using it. And it's all about adoption. In your case, you were the coach, you were in charge. So we talk about hostages and volunteers when it comes to technology, your players, hostages, they didn't have a choice. Now they could have fought it, sounds like that didn't happen, but they weren't the ones offering the Google searches. Like, come on, coach we got to have a better way to do this. That wasn't how it went down. The Southlake Caroll story is very, very, very encouraging. However weird you might happen to be, you've got another big program using this. It's just killing me that y'all aren't just right down the road. I want to be in some of these meetings, just watching the breakdowns. I want to field questions from the players. I won't know thing one about what's actually going on football wise, but I like their adoption of it.
Coach Chase Hargis (34:12):
Yeah. We'll have to do it.
Rob Collie (34:14):
And so how do we get players and coaches to adopt something that wasn't their idea that they weren't looking for?
Coach Chase Hargis (34:21):
That's where you come in as the business side. But no, I think it would be really cool to get you in front of Southlake Caroll and for me to do it too, because I bet they've used it in ways that I don't know how to use it and vice versa. I think it'd be great to hear feedback from them.
Rob Collie (34:35):
So how awesome is it that they went to the finals last year, they went to the championship game and lost. They go to the finals this year and win, what's the only difference that we can point to?
Coach Chase Hargis (34:43):
Www.coverhawk.app.
Rob Collie (34:47):
CoverHawk.
Coach Chase Hargis (34:47):
The Hawk is what we've started calling it.
Rob Collie (34:49):
Really?
Coach Chase Hargis (34:50):
The Hawk is updated is the text that goes back and forth.
Rob Collie (34:53):
Oh my God, that is so cool. The Hawk is updated. It sounds like the eagle is landed or something.
Coach Chase Hargis (34:59):
The Hawk is updated.
Rob Collie (35:03):
Frog swim in winter. The Hawk is updated. I love it. Are there any other interesting or funny stories? Things that have happened in the course of this adventure.
Coach Chase Hargis (35:15):
So Southlake plays a team in their district is my buddies the head coach and he's an offensive guy. And so Southlake sent me the spreadsheets for this school that they were playing where my buddy is the head coach at. And so when I updated the Hawk, I screen shotted it on my phone and I texted it to him and I go, Hey, if you wanted to know where you're throwing the football, the last two weeks here it is. We had talked to him at the convention me and you. He came by the booth and was interested in it, but he looked at it and he goes, wow, we're pretty right-handed aren't we? I go, yeah, you're throwing it to the right a little too much. It was interesting for us to talk about it when he had no idea that we were even doing that with his team.
Rob Collie (35:55):
It's just fascinating. I would've expected, and I'm sure that there are layers and levels at which this impression is still true, but I would've expected a level of cutthroat competition amongst all these coaches in this community. That if it's there, it's like subterranean. It's hidden. When you're coming up on a game against high school X, high school X actually provides you with a lot of film from their games and you do the same for them.
Coach Chase Hargis (36:29):
That is correct.
Rob Collie (36:31):
You provide each other with film. That's not happening above the high school level.
Coach Chase Hargis (36:36):
No, it's not. I sent it to another coach too that was the head coach of a team in their district. And I go, Hey, here's where you're throwing the ball the last three games. He goes, what is that? I go, it's that CoverHawk thing I was telling you about this summer. He goes, if it's something I have to buy to beat Southlake I'll buy it. I was like, well, I can't guarantee that, but.
Rob Collie (36:55):
Well, coach, it's been a heck of a ride from that moment that you sent the email to P3 until now we've gone to a conference together, my only conference since COVID, which is pretty cool, got a future with a lot of possibility in it with just with your typical standard run of the mill Power BI embedded football visualization called CoverHawk.
Coach Chase Hargis (37:14):
That's right.
Rob Collie (37:15):
We'll be in touch behind the scenes, plotting our next move. But yeah, really appreciate you taking the time out of your day.
Coach Chase Hargis (37:21):
I appreciate it too. It was fun.
Announcer (37:24):
Thanks for listening to the raw data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to www.P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
What's the first feeling that you get when you hear the word Sales or Salesperson? We believe that most people do not get warm fuzzies when they hear those words!
Carson Heady is Director, Health Solutions - U.S. Health & Life Sciences at Microsoft and shatters the negative stereotypes of the Salesperson. He is about as human and helpful as any guest we've had on the show, and we're quite sure that his customers agree!
His titles and achievements are amazing, and we were fortunate enough to be able to talk to him about a gamut of topics-from data use in healthcare, to the importance of transparency, the future of Microsoft, and all points in between!
Here's Carson's Website:
The Home of the “Birth of a Salesman” Series, by Carson V. Heady
References in this Episode:
Far Side King of the Salespersons
White Men Can't Jump Water Scene (CONTENT WARNING!)
The Shining-Scatman Is So Nice
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Carson Heady, Director of Health Solutions at Microsoft. There's a lot of exciting things going on where the healthcare space meets the Microsoft platform, especially the power platform and Azure.
Rob Collie (00:00:13):
And so of course, we talk about that a bit during the conversation. But he's also a bestselling author of books on sales, which led us down the human path in the conversation. Things like relationships and transparency, and the art of empathy and collaborative problem-solving. And all of these really being at the heart of this thing called sales that I think is very, very foreign and almost like anti-matter to the data crowd.
Rob Collie (00:00:43):
I know that I personally have always gotten way too hung up on the negative aspects of sales. There's something repulsive about talking people out of their money, isn't there? And there are certainly instances where sales does have that reputation for a reason.
Rob Collie (00:01:01):
But I think I learned something very, very powerful and important. It's one of those things that I think looking forward I'm going to be thinking about this conversation for a long time, which is that even the notion of calling it sales is defining it from the perspective of the supply. It's defining it through the lens of the people or organization that actually has something to sell.
Rob Collie (00:01:22):
But if you look at it instead from the perspective of the buyer, they need something. They need a service. They need a product. They need a solution to a problem, and they need someone to help them understand that it's possible and how much it's going to cost, and all of those sorts of things. They need someone to help them.
Rob Collie (00:01:40):
And I think if we had, from the beginning, not defined sales from that supply side perspective but instead had described it from the very beginning as customer empowerment or customer enablement.
Rob Collie (00:01:52):
And I know that a lot of places do try to rename sales to be something like that, and that's probably effective in some cases. But in other ways, like when they go out to hire, those same organizations, when they go out to hire people for customer enablement, what are they looking for? They're looking for sales professionals.
Rob Collie (00:02:09):
And so I think the word is just stuck. But for us, people who are more technically minded, who are more direct, hands-on problem solving sorts like me and like many of our listeners, I still think for us, it's a powerful concept to not think about sales from the outbound sense, not think about it from the supply side. Think about it from the demand side. Think about it in terms of the customer. What would they call it?
Rob Collie (00:02:34):
And when you look at it through that lens, and that was something that very much leaped out of my headphones when talking to Carson, suddenly it all just makes a lot more sense. So if the concept of sales has seemed foreign or alien or icky to you in the past, I think you'll find this conversation to be very valuable, interesting, and useful long-term.
Rob Collie (00:02:54):
With all that said, let's get into it.
Computer Generated Voice (00:02:58):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Computer Generated Voice (00:03:02):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. With your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:03:23):
Welcome to the show. Carson Heady, how are you this fine afternoon?
Carson Heady (00:03:27):
I'm great, Rob. Thanks for having me. How are you?
Rob Collie (00:03:29):
We're doing well here.
Rob Collie (00:03:30):
So Carson, let's start with today. What do you do at Microsoft?
Carson Heady (00:03:33):
Sure.
Carson Heady (00:03:34):
And at Microsoft, you never get too used to titles because they may change. Today, I'm a director for Microsoft's Health Solutions, which is basically med-device, MedTech, some of our ISV partners that dabble in the healthcare space.
Carson Heady (00:03:48):
I've got a team that supports nationwide customer organizations that fall in that space, and been with Microsoft seven and a half years. Exclusively in the healthcare organization for the last couple of years, and then prior to that, I've spent time in the small and mid-size.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
I've just been fascinated, having worked at Microsoft on the engineering team for so many years, but then to go and go out into the wild and see how Microsoft actually meets the world. It's very, very different. And there's so much value created in the small and the SMB space by Microsoft tools, and at the same time, so little attention paid to it from an enterprise sales perspective. Because guess what? It's not enterprise.
Rob Collie (00:04:27):
So how did you even come into the role that you're in right now? I know that... You just mentioned the last couple of years in healthcare, was healthcare always a passion or an interest for you, or an area of extreme growth for Microsoft? It could be both, of course.
Carson Heady (00:04:41):
Yeah, Rob, very astute observation. It was one of those situations, I had the serendipitous good fortune of joining Microsoft the week after Satya Nadella became the CEO.
Carson Heady (00:04:51):
So to watch our transformation as a platform organization, I came into a brand new role at the time, I was brought in by a gentleman that I'd worked with at a previous organization. And had some success in that role and was pulled into the small and mid-size organization.
Carson Heady (00:05:06):
Now, in that business I had pretty much every industry vertical represented, and healthcare probably comprised 18% of the total account portfolio. There were some good wins and synergies within the healthcare space. And when I was saw one of my colleagues and then also a leader that I had worked for previously move into the healthcare business, and as the small and midsize organization continued to evolve into more of a digital model with more coverage, I made the move as a field seller into the healthcare space.
Carson Heady (00:05:39):
Predominantly supported providers and payers, I'd say probably a year plus in that space. And then just recently made the move into a leadership role in the health solutions, med-device, MedTech space.
Carson Heady (00:05:51):
So it's been an interesting journey, but mostly been gravitating toward leaders that I want to be aligned with in the business. And then also it's wonderful to be able to parlay your skills into a industry field that is so rewarding, one where I've been able to learn but also stay at the pulse of what matters to our healthcare organizations.
Rob Collie (00:06:11):
So are you not so much focused on providers and payers anymore, or is it just an expansion, like the Venn diagram also includes that now?
Carson Heady (00:06:20):
No, that's a great question. So our customers are prominent major organizations that fit into the medical device realm laboratory, laboratory, some of the pharma and life sciences organizations, and then also some of the partners that have built on our platform.
Carson Heady (00:06:38):
So it's fascinating because a lot of the conversations could be around supply chain, visibility, resilience, and most prominently, data. How are we leveraging data? How can data be utilized for these organizations to glean insights, better uncover commercialized models? There's a lot of really interesting implications. And mixed reality, that plays a lot in this space from a internal operations but also from a training perspective, and how they are engaging with their clients, who in many cases are the very healthcare providers, the hospitals that we were just talking about.
Carson Heady (00:07:12):
So different realm of the sphere but all obviously in the same ecosystem and speaking a similar language.
Rob Collie (00:07:18):
What are these vertical solutions that are being produced by Microsoft using the Microsoft platform? Like the combination of Azure and Teams and all that, is it Microsoft Health Solutions? Is that the right name?
Speaker 4 (00:07:29):
Sure. No, that's a great question, and it's very similar to our titles within healthcare. A lot of it is connected health experience, whether that's internal operations or patient experience. So there is a formal Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare, a cloud for retail, a cloud for manufacturing.
Speaker 4 (00:07:45):
And to best answer your question, Rob, there is a... Basically a sphere that will show and chart out how all of these pieces are connected, whether it's data at the core of it. Interoperability is very important in the healthcare space where you or I, as a patient, we've got to be able to go into a healthcare provider and have access to all of our health records and have that experience be connected.
Speaker 4 (00:08:08):
So there's a lot of work that goes into that realm, but you nailed it. As your Teams, dynamics, whatever ERP systems some of these organizations are used, all of that is the connected element. And I think that's what sets Microsoft apart, frankly, is that connected platform experience.
Speaker 4 (00:08:27):
It's not Microsoft is the solution to everything anymore, it's how do we integrate with the solution? And in healthcare, a lot of these organizations are using their medical health records systems. We can now integrate with those. We can now host those in Azure. We can now glean insights from those and help them make better predictive decisions. So that's at the core of why we have a connected platform experience.
Rob Collie (00:08:50):
Yeah, the reality of the world I think is... And this has been a theme on this show with multiple guests, is that Microsoft's DNA as a platform company is very, very well positioned for where the world is right now.
Rob Collie (00:09:03):
There is no one stop shop solution to anything. We joke about best of breed, every organization claims with a sly grin that they have a best of breed, a mix of technology solutions and software that runs their business, which really just means the random collection of stuff that they happen to buy and get entrenched in over the years and through acquisition and all that. There's no rhyme or reason to it.
Rob Collie (00:09:26):
You end up with just this completely random and unique collection of line of business systems, and your entire business depends on the sum total of all of them. It was this really crazy dawning realization for me over the past few years when it came into focus that when it's done right, even business intelligence is a form of middleware. The old BI, which was frankly very, very poor, most of it, was all single silo reporting.
Rob Collie (00:09:58):
Here's the reports coming out of this SQL database and here's the reports coming out of this SQL database, which again, gives you all these completely disparate views of your business that like, oh, you need to integrate that into some sort of overall picture of how things are going. Well, use your brain. Just integrate that in your head, or more realistically, give it to the Excel people and make them do it.
Rob Collie (00:10:18):
So if you think of BI as read-only middleware and the rest of Microsoft's power platform and Azure, all of these things, it's not just read-only, you're not just reading data. You're very often passing and writing data between systems, that interoperability that you're talking about. And who is positioned to do a good job of this even on par with Microsoft?
Rob Collie (00:10:41):
We used to be cynical in a way, even if you work for some place too long you always invariably become a little bit cynical about it. And we used to always laugh about, oh yeah, Microsoft will give you the parts to the Porsche. You can assemble your own.
Rob Collie (00:10:54):
And we saw so many competitors delivering fully assembled Yugo's or whatever. the car wasn't as good. But you didn't have to build it. You didn't have to put it together. I think today's reality is is that everything needs customization, everything needs tweaking.
Rob Collie (00:11:09):
Everything needs to have a platform view because a 99% solution is just another version of zero. It needs to be 100.
Carson Heady (00:11:17):
I think you're spot on, and there's always different movers in the landscapes that we play in. I think it's fascinating too. And even in light of the pandemic, you've seen a lot of these different platforms that have become more and more prominent in how they've been utilized or more and more capabilities that have been introduced. And it forces us all to get better.
Carson Heady (00:11:39):
I think what I've seen mostly around Power BI as an example just over the last handful of years is the ability that I have to have the inputs and get back something that's going to be truly meaningful, but also the ability to leverage data as a diagnosis tool.
Carson Heady (00:11:56):
And it's amazing too working with clients. Being in healthcare, being able to see how they're leveraging the data. And in a pandemic, and being able to see in real-time some of these factors that are impacting patients, and some of these symptoms that are becoming more and more prominent as they discover them for the first time for the Coronavirus.
Carson Heady (00:12:16):
Or take it one step further, how can we build something meaningful with a customer and then commercialize that model? More and more in healthcare, I'm seeing a lot of these organizations enter into consortiums. Where can they share data in a meaningful way where they still retain the rights to their data, but they can call it together and then glean more meaningful and sometimes predictive insights around different things, like the effectiveness of a coronary stent?
Carson Heady (00:12:43):
I think these things are extremely powerful. And where Microsoft isn't always at the forefront of some of these things historically, we do a really good job of learning from our competitors. We do a very good job of catching up and then surpassing and bringing it all together.
Carson Heady (00:13:00):
To your earlier point about it being a platform, where else are you going to find a solution that brings it all together? I love that you touched on best in breed as well, because on paper thematically and aesthetically, that type of a format and approach makes sense to some degree. But where we enter into more and more of these discussions with decision-makers and influencers and executives in these organizations is in an environment like that to maintain, how cost-effective is it to maintain something of that ilk when you can have a platform that everything inherently fits together, talks to each other, and is easier to manage overall? Especially when all of those offerings are much more robust than they once were.
Rob Collie (00:13:43):
Okay, so the official name I was looking for before I think was the Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare.
Carson Heady (00:13:48):
You got it.
Krissy Dyess (00:13:49):
I actually had a question Carson, the thing that peaked my interest that... Tell me what mixed reality is in healthcare?
Carson Heady (00:13:56):
Love that question, Krissy. It's fascinating to me because I've been aware of HoloLens and some of the devices that Microsoft has released historically. Which there's a headset, you have the ability to look at the space in front of you. And the reason it's called mixed reality is because there will be something that I can interact with or envision or see that appears to be right in front of me.
Carson Heady (00:14:19):
Now, in the case of healthcare, there's a lot of practical applications for this. The one that I'm seeing a lot of is the ability to perform surgeries or do a mock surgery leveraging this headset. So being able to go out and look at the surgical format and different instruments and interact, it's basically a computer that is strapped to your head that gives you the vision that you are performing this operation so that you can do it from a practice perspective.
Carson Heady (00:14:50):
I've seen it leveraged from a training standpoint. Before joining healthcare I was working in the small and mid-size, and there was a moving company that I worked with at one point that was leveraging these to be able to beam in remotely into an environment and be able to see and do these remote surveys.
Carson Heady (00:15:07):
So there's a litany of different ways that these are leveraged, as opposed to full-on artificial reality, which gives me that full capability to strap on a headset and actually physically be in another space.
Carson Heady (00:15:18):
This is the same space that you're in but you're able to interact with others. You're able to do training, and you're able to do the things like even go out and look at a car part if I'm a manufacturer. And I go in and amplify it, blow it up, examine these things in a way that I would not be able to do otherwise.
Rob Collie (00:15:37):
Let's talk about sales. Before Microsoft, what's your origin story? How did you get into all this?
Carson Heady (00:15:41):
It's one of those things, I got into sales completely by happenstance. And I think that's common of a lot of sellers. There was no predetermined career path. I had the same conversations with my parents who were frustrated that I had no idea what I wanted to do with myself when I grew up. And sometimes I still don't, hence why I try to dabble in so many different things.
Carson Heady (00:16:00):
But in all seriousness, I started out trying to go into a customer service type role. Started with AT&T, I was on the phones and I believed that it was going to be more of a service style role. It was not. It was basically one call close selling.
Carson Heady (00:16:15):
At first it was businesses calling in asking something about their accounts, and then there was the expectation of upsell. And not long into my tenure there they changed our entire office into residential. So it got better. It was people calling in complaining about their phone bill and I had to turn around and upsell them.
Carson Heady (00:16:31):
So you can imagine that once you develop an ability or an acumen about being able to do that, I moved up in that department, and then jumped into a few different roles while I was at AT&T over about eight and a half years.
Carson Heady (00:16:45):
I was in sales, sales leadership, and then I ultimately ended up working in their advertising business for a little bit. So I've worked in a lot of sales and sales leadership environments, but completely not dependent on different industries.
Carson Heady (00:16:57):
So I subscribe to the belief that sales, if you develop a muscle around it, is a transferable skill. And I've been very fortunate to be successful in different industry verticals across my time at AT&T and Microsoft, but also a few smaller, much smaller organizations in the interim.
Rob Collie (00:17:14):
You said transferable. So you mean portable across industries, as opposed to transferable like, oh, I can teach you. I can teach you in an eye blink how to be good at sales.
Carson Heady (00:17:26):
I think there's an element of that. But for me, it's always been about people and process, understanding the people that I'm interacting with in that food chain, be it the customer, staying at the pulse of what matters to them, then also my colleagues or any resources that exist. And then process, we were talking earlier about [at-bats 00:17:45]. The one thing in sales is there's a lot of at-bats but you've got to have quality at-bats.
Carson Heady (00:17:49):
So understanding what is going to be the best method for reaching out to new prospects, or what's going to be the best method for follow up or continuing on through a sales cycle. I've been in one call close environments, I've been in two and three, four year sales cycles. So it's spending a lot of time in very different sales environments has given me a lot of valuable experience. And so I think with that comes some ability to teach. It's not as easy to transfer that ability because everybody comes with a different unique vantage point.
Carson Heady (00:18:22):
But I think that if you're good at sales, if you develop an acumen for that, you can translate that with practice. And obviously with a lot of effort you can transfer that into other industries.
Rob Collie (00:18:34):
I'm sure you've seen the Far Side cartoon, I forget the name of the character, but he's in a boat and he's sailing away from the Eskimos on their icebergs. And they're all sitting there with brand new refrigerators and freezers, and he's waving bye bye to them. And the caption is all hail King Jimmy, king of all sales people, it was something like that.
Rob Collie (00:18:52):
That scenario you described, that starting point or one of the starting points where people are calling to complain about their bill, and your organization's expectation of you is to turn that complaint into them subscribing to additional services. It's got to be one of the most difficult challenges ever. Like, no, we're going to feed you a steady stream of people who are angry.
Carson Heady (00:19:14):
Yes, but I don't believe... Just like Captain Kirk, I do not believe in the no-win scenario. I will find a way to succeed. And that's part of sales, frankly, is understanding the parameters and the playing field. We want to stick with some sports analogies too.
Carson Heady (00:19:28):
Like the at-bats, you've got to understand your playing field. And there's an element of it that is about sales excellence, but a lot of sales excellence is understanding the customer, what's the pulse of the customer, what are the resources at my disposal? And then how do I best operate with the parameters of maybe different buckets that get me paid, or whatever that looks like?
Carson Heady (00:19:46):
But part of it is developing a thick skin. The customer's not upset at you personally, they're upset at a situation. So let them vent, listen, and then ultimately try to arrive at a plan that is going to meet them where they are and align to what their stated goal is.
Carson Heady (00:20:02):
Now you ultimately are going to try to influence them to change their current behavior. But before you can do that, you have to make sure that they see a gap in what they're doing.
Carson Heady (00:20:10):
And again, that's in every selling environment. It's just some people cling to their current way of doing things more than others, and for different reasons. So we've got to uncover that why before we can even start to build a relationship that could lead to that change.
Rob Collie (00:20:26):
Listening to you talk it just occurred to me for the first time ever that I think one of my problems with... Or difficulties, a problem sounds like an objection. A difficulty that I've had is that sales is... Even the word sales, it is written from the perspective of the organization that has something to sell.
Rob Collie (00:20:48):
In other words, it's not written from the perspective of the person who has a problem to solve. And a lot of geeky, nerdy types, such as myself, sales is a very uncomfortable place. The idea that I'm supposed to go and talk someone else out of their money, it was just such a bad personality mismatch for me.
Rob Collie (00:21:09):
At the same time, it might sound contradictory but I don't think it will to you, I've loved evangelism. I've loved marketing, I've loved messaging. It's just when it gets onto that personal level, one on one, I just want to go back to the marketing message and then let them make up their minds.
Rob Collie (00:21:26):
Over the year as I've come to understand this, it's not sales, it's problem-solving. If the product you're selling isn't worth it, it doesn't have positive ROI, then you're a swindler.
Rob Collie (00:21:40):
But none of the stuff that we're working with is like that. The technology that you're responsible for selling and the services that we sell that go along with it are the most insanely positive ROI you're ever going to find. And so I had to get out of my own way in the way I think about this. And we're growing really quickly. We're hiring seemingly a new consultant every week, sometimes more than that.
Rob Collie (00:22:04):
And as part of our onboarding process, I meet with everybody one-on-one for an hour, hour and a half. It's one of the things I've been telling them is like, my transformation, my personal journey in terms of my relationship with sales is you're there to solve problems, and you're also there to not make your own service hard to consume. It's going to go out there in the world and it's going to do good things, don't get in the way. Don't passively block that.
Rob Collie (00:22:29):
I wish that there was another way we could describe sales. We could just change the name. And instead of describing it from the perspective of the seller, describe it from the perspective of the buyer. I would've had a very different feel for it from the very beginning, if it had been reversed in the way we described it.
Carson Heady (00:22:43):
Yeah, Rob, I think sometimes it has almost that four letter word type of connotation in your mind. But you said something really important that I think we need to double down on, which is evangelism. I look at my role as I'm being paid no matter where I work to be an evangelist of my brand. It's important that I believe in that brand to be able to do it right and to be able to do it with my whole heart. But the other thing too is I view my responsibility as being an advocate for my customer, because I need to understand the customers why and what their key milestones are so that I can go back to my organization and ultimately sell them on why they should care about my customer more than maybe they do on paper.
Carson Heady (00:23:21):
I also try to take a very counterintuitive approach to customers if commonly I get feedback that, "Hey, we already spend a lot of money with your company and we don't necessarily get as much value as we think we should." Or, "You're the biggest check we write," or, "Hey, we only hear from your team every few years when you want to renew us."
Carson Heady (00:23:39):
Guess what? I'm going to infuse that into the way that I reach out to customers, as in, "Hey, the reason I want to come to you today is because you're entitled to a lot of resources because of your investment with us. I want to make sure you're privy to that."
Carson Heady (00:23:53):
And then we get a baseline there and we optimize your investment first before we do anything. I want to build a foundation of transparency and trust. I also want to make sure I arm them with all of those resources that they're entitled to, but I understand their why, what's at the pulse of what matters to them.
Carson Heady (00:24:07):
And then if there's a way to align, great. But I try to look for ways that I can more inform as well. I've started webinar series, I've started newsletters. These are very passive forms of sales but it's a great way to stay top of mind. If something resonates, great. Let's have a conversation.
Carson Heady (00:24:22):
Because I think what a lot of sellers forget, deals happen as a result of relationships. That's it. And you're going to develop a relationship by showing first off that you care about what they care about.
Carson Heady (00:24:33):
Second, arming them with what they need to know about how to best leverage their relationship with my organization. And then lastly, just being there, making sure that you're actually showing up and that you're a part of the solution, like you said, as opposed to just coming in and trying to sell or get them to change their current way of doing things.
Carson Heady (00:24:52):
Because we have to minimize the risk factor. They're not going to have minimal risk in their mind until they actually have a trusted relationship with you, and you've earned that trusted advisor status. And I think that's the way sellers need to position themselves and think in order to be successful.
Rob Collie (00:25:09):
It might be the word of the year for me, calling it the word of the year would suggest that I'm actually going to learn everything I need to learn about it in a year. Which means it's probably more like the word of the decade for me, is validation. I'm not very good about this. I need to be much better, particularly in my home life. That's a skill that for some reason I've got a ways to go.
Rob Collie (00:25:28):
Twice here, just in the early going of our conversation, I've heard you talk about something that seems very much on that theme. When you're talking about the people who are calling and angry, giving them a forum to air their grievances and be heard. So there's that validation component there. And then you're talking about working this into your messaging, like your outreach process, because of the investment that you make.
Rob Collie (00:25:50):
You're preemptively validating, and I think it's a superpower. If validation of another person's, another human beings struggle comes naturally to you, you're going to move through the world at hyper speed, relative to the people who don't have this superpower.
Rob Collie (00:26:10):
Professionally, I'm way ahead of my personal life version on this particular superpower. The professional version of me is really good at this. The personal version has a long way to go. And I don't know how to really reconcile the two, but it seems like this is like a way of life for you.
Carson Heady (00:26:29):
It's so important to make sure that no matter what you're doing, that you think about all the...First off, what are the strengths and, like you said, the superpowers that I can bring to the table? How do I master flexing that muscle? And then how can I replicate that elsewhere? And invest in relationships? That's what's been the most key thing for me, is just investing in the relationships and showing up with the value. That could be me with my colleague. That could be me with any customer. Because at the end of the day, I hate that it has to be said, but we're all people.
Carson Heady (00:27:04):
If I think about how other people are probably showing up to customers, they have a process too, just like I have a process. I have a process that's designed to create relationships, create conversations, and see where that can go in a fruitful way for both parties.
Carson Heady (00:27:19):
But a lot of buyers have a process as well. They have the capability to research our company, they have the capability to research our sellers. And so I think if we can show up differently, then I would say probably the majority of other sellers show up, which is what you described earlier. Where I'm trying to show up, regurgitate every great thing that I deem about my company, that's not what's reaching and connecting with buyers truly.
Carson Heady (00:27:42):
So I feel like to your way of life comment, that's the right approach, because you have to live and breathe that authenticity in whatever you're doing, whether it's selling or just whether it's how you live your life. I'm of the same mindset even just in my personal life. I try to look at it the same way. I'm always trying to invest in relationships because we're so close to people in our personal life. I think that's what makes it challenging to have those relationships sometimes sing in the same way that the business ones do.
Carson Heady (00:28:10):
Because it's a little bit less personal, but I would agree with you wholeheartedly that it is, it's about a way of life. It's investing in people, and evolving, understanding what matters to people, staying at the pulse of what matters to them, and then adjusting your process accordingly.
Rob Collie (00:28:24):
There's a lot in there, the authenticity thing in particular. I'm going to do a quick side question here and I'm going to direct this question to Krissy.
Rob Collie (00:28:31):
You remember in the movie white men can't jump, when Rosie Perez says to Woody Harrelson, "I'm thirsty," and he gets up to get her a drink of water and she gets really angry at him. And he goes, "What do you mean?" He's just, "I don't want you to solve my problems, I just want you to validate my feeling of thirst."
Carson Heady (00:28:50):
That's the biggest mistake I make at home, because I'm always trying to solve problems.
Krissy Dyess (00:28:56):
I did not see the movie but I get where you're going.
Rob Collie (00:28:59):
As the lone female on this podcast.
Krissy Dyess (00:29:01):
I'm here to represent, yes.
Rob Collie (00:29:02):
You're here to represent the entire female population of earth.
Krissy Dyess (00:29:07):
I'm sorry all females, but I am here to represent. I'm doing my best, I'm doing my best.
Rob Collie (00:29:12):
If you say that you're thirsty at home and your husband goes to get you a glass of water, is that an A plus or a D minus performance?
Krissy Dyess (00:29:23):
Ah, this is such a tough question, because I don't really need anybody to get me a glass of water. But it would be nice and appreciated. It's like the opening door thing and how that's changed. And that's where I was thinking about this conversation, is, wow, technology has changed. When I'm hearing you talk it reminds me actually of a movie that I did recently see that I had never seen, which was surprising. The shining, have you all seen the shining?
Rob Collie (00:29:51):
No.
Krissy Dyess (00:29:52):
Okay, you should-
Rob Collie (00:29:54):
I know everything about it but I've never seen it.
Krissy Dyess (00:29:56):
And that's how I was too. I know the version from the Simpsons. I get the premise and I get the gist of it. And at Halloween we try to embrace all things Halloween with our family and our kids, and so we watched it. And after I watched that movie, there was a scene where the gentleman, he calls and he's worried about the family that's up there taking care of the property. And if they're going crazy and somebody's going to kill him.
Krissy Dyess (00:30:20):
And he calls up there and he says, "Can go check on them?" And he took it an extra step further. Not only did he check in, but then he followed up. And it was like this light bulb went off. I feel like we lost that. Just that general concern and connection. I feel the technology, while it's great, because I'm thinking about this for people that aren't particularly skilled and you can totally feed that all into a machine learning algorithm, prompting people on what they should say. And even picking body language and stuff like that.
Krissy Dyess (00:30:53):
I don't know if it's in the mixed reality with the avatar and we get the avatars expression, maybe that comes into play. The technology is great, but there is a part that is that human element. That is something that we at P3 deeply believe in with the Microsoft suite of tools, you can't just throw a technology and tools at things. But when you combine it with really that passion, that deep understanding, and you just do that little bit extra. It just makes such a big difference I think in terms of those relationships that you were talking about.
Krissy Dyess (00:31:27):
So anyways, I know I took that 100 places so I'm going to go back to the water thing. Okay?
Rob Collie (00:31:32):
Okay.
Krissy Dyess (00:31:32):
I'm going to tie it all back together, because here's something that happens. So my day is busy, sometimes I don't even have a chance to get a tea in the morning. And so oftentimes I go downstairs, I make a tea, and it's hot and I'm letting it steep. But then I hop up and I get on one meeting to the next meeting. Well, my husband, he picked up on it, because I come down at three o'clock and here I am drinking my tea, because I want to drink it. It's green tea and I want the good stuff in my body.
Krissy Dyess (00:32:00):
So he anyways brings me up my tea one morning. I come over and I'm like, "Oh, how sweet. He put a little actual rose on my desk." I don't know why. It was weird, but anyways. And I come over and I take a big drink, it's scolding hot and I burn my tongue.
Krissy Dyess (00:32:15):
So I don't know, sometimes you try to do something good like that. And in that case, it turned out really bad. But the next time then... There's more Rob, I know. There's more. Then next time he came up and he put it here, and he said, "Hey, just so you know, your tea is hot."
Rob Collie (00:32:35):
I have no familiarity whatsoever with this concept of trying to do something nice and having it backfire, no concept of it.
Carson Heady (00:32:42):
Never heard of that.
Rob Collie (00:32:43):
Never heard of it.
Rob Collie (00:32:45):
I'm always well intentioned, always well intentioned. If only there were bonus points giving out for intention, but I... Yes, I typically fall short.
Krissy Dyess (00:32:56):
It's the thought that counts. It's the thought that. And you take the data and you learn, okay, didn't go right. Next time I'll let her know, put the sticky on there, it's hot.
Rob Collie (00:33:05):
Hopefully we live to try another day.
Krissy Dyess (00:33:07):
This is true, this is all true.
Rob Collie (00:33:09):
Always improvement, the evolution of the process. Tea is hot.
Carson Heady (00:33:13):
It's like groundhog day, it's like today I might put too much creamer in her coffee. So tomorrow, I'm going to do my absolute best not to do that but then I'll probably mess up something else. And then we're all striving toward that one perfect day.
Rob Collie (00:33:28):
I think in an old Bill Simmons column someone calculated how long that character probably spent.
Carson Heady (00:33:35):
A thousand years or something. It was something crazy.
Rob Collie (00:33:38):
It was a really long time, that's how long he was trapped in that single day. It was a heck of an analysis.
Rob Collie (00:33:43):
Going back to these themes, these sort human themes. Carson, what are your thoughts... This is the biggest softball question of all time. Ready for this?
Rob Collie (00:33:50):
What are your thoughts on the concept of transparency when it comes to working with your own team, working with customers, I'm just going on a hunch here that this might be an important word for you.
Carson Heady (00:34:02):
Big time, love that you called out that word, Rob. I think from a transparency standpoint, ultimately when you're working with a customer you strive to have that relationship where you care about what looks like a win to each party. And that best happens when they understand your process as best they can.
Carson Heady (00:34:18):
I try to arm customers with as much as they need to know about what's a lever that I can pull on their behalf? How can you best arm me with information that I can take back to my company and say, "Look, this is why we need to invest at this organization." That's the type of level of relationship that I want to establish with every customer that I work with. That's how we best become advocates for them and evangelists of our own brand in turn.
Carson Heady (00:34:43):
Same thing with working with a team. When I'm working with somebody on my team, and I've been in leadership for the majority of my career, it's understanding what's their motivation, what's their why? But show them as much of the behind the curtain wizard of Oz stuff as you possibly can, they need to understand, how are these key processes going to work either for or against them? How can they best optimize their payout? Or arming me with the information that I need when we do quota setting exercises or getting them mastery of their role, but also getting them promoted or getting them wherever they want to go. Those are the types of things that are so critical, I have to be able to understand that so I can be a champion for my people.
Carson Heady (00:35:24):
And the best part of that is is showing them as much of the sausage making as they want to see, or that makes sense. I've got to be allegiant to my organization because again, that's what I'm paid to do. I can't just show and tell everything, that's not my job. But I do think it's important that the team and the individual contributor or the manager that's working for you, whatever it is, they know as much of the process as will be advantageous for them in making decisions around their job mastery and then also taking charge of their career.
Rob Collie (00:35:55):
When you understand the benefits of a transparent style it seems really obvious that this is the way to do it. At the same time, why does it seem so novel? Why does this feel like a cheat code as opposed to how everyone works? It just seems like it should be a hell of a lot more widespread than it is. Do you have any instincts on that? Why is transparency not the norm everywhere?
Carson Heady (00:36:19):
I think there's a variety of reasons. At the heart of it there's a conscious decision that comes into it. When I pull up my email every day I've got hundreds of emails, I've got fires that I've got to put out every day. But it's those decisions that you make about your non-negotiables every day. I'm going to etch out five things that I have to get done that day.
Carson Heady (00:36:38):
And it might be I see somebody struggling, so I'm going to carve out a conscious working session where we're going to work through whatever that issue looks like, or I'm going to validate and listen to what they have to say if they've got a legitimate beef or a legitimate barrier to success. We're going to sit there and we're going to sit in it. And it's uncomfortable sometimes, I think that's why it's not necessarily the default, is because there's elements of it that are maybe uncomfortable.
Carson Heady (00:37:04):
It also depends on what's the messaging and the treatment from above. How are my managers or my leaders conditioning me to be a leader? Am I getting the training that I need to be a good manager? Am I being trained and coached to put people at the heart of everything that I'm doing? So it's the big element of culture that fits into it as well.
Carson Heady (00:37:21):
So if you've got those factors working against you you're always going to be a product of your environment. That's the way of life. And I think if you're not trained or coached or conditioned to lead by putting people at the heart of it, and you don't consciously make the decision every day to go out and be transparent and put people at the heart of this, communicate with them consistently, be consistent with your message, it's really easy to get pulled in a lot of different directions.
Carson Heady (00:37:48):
We all have a lot of minutia going on. I've absolutely had managers in my career that have led blindly with data reactively, and just said, "Hey, you need to go sell more widgets, just go out and do it."
Carson Heady (00:38:00):
Well, that doesn't help me understand the why behind that process. And the more inclusive way of doing that and the more effective way of doing that is to work together to say, "Hey, we're not doing well at this widget. Let's sit down and understand why that is. What's the pushback we're getting from a customer as an example, maybe were some best practices. Who's doing well at this? How can we learn together and do this together?"
Carson Heady (00:38:24):
That's the key element that I think is lacking when you don't necessarily do that as a default. But I think it's product of environment, and it's also putting people at the heart. It isn't necessarily the default. And there's some discomfort sometimes that comes with that validation and sitting with the struggles with your team that are required to truly get you there, and to optimize that dynamic.
Rob Collie (00:38:47):
We've been playing the sports metaphor game, why stop now? So I remember watching... It was a boxing match, it might have been... It was some sort of fight where people were swinging fists at each other in a controlled setting.
Rob Collie (00:38:58):
There were gloves but they left them on for the fight. So it wasn't hockey. Okay, so we can rule out hockey. And after the fight, the winner, they're interviewing the winner, and I don't know a thing, one about boxing terminology or whatever. But I remember him saying, "Yeah, I just felt really confident the whole time and I felt really comfortable staying in the pocket."
Rob Collie (00:39:17):
And I'd never heard that phrase before, and I'm sure they use it all the time in fighting. And guess what, I'm not a fighter. My last amateur fight was probably I was eight years old. It was unsanctioned bout and I retired after that. But that whole concept of in the pocket, now we're really taking a Brene Brown turn in the conversation.
Rob Collie (00:39:37):
Listening to your answer, you hit on vulnerability. You want to be transparent, that exposes your neck, and it's uncomfortable to do that. And I think especially as youngsters we misunderstand, we have an inverted sense of strength and weakness. Vulnerability is weakness in the wild.
Rob Collie (00:39:59):
But in teams, in society and relationships, it takes all the strength in the world to be vulnerable and survive it. But all the value is there. Now we're going back to the fighting metaphor, which is less collaborative for obvious reasons. But that notion of staying in the pocket, in order to win he had to be within striking distance of his... Let's just say his goal and not the other guy's face that he's trying to pummel.
Rob Collie (00:40:25):
No, he needs to stay within range of his goal, but at the same time that puts him in danger. And he has to be comfortable with that. That doesn't just come naturally to most people. For me, myself, I don't know when that magnetic poll started to reverse for me and started to understand it differently. A lot of things that I thought were weakness were strength and vice versa.
Rob Collie (00:40:47):
I'm very grateful that that inversion has happened or maybe it's still happening for me. But yeah, vulnerability, most people don't like it. And so opacity rules the roost.
Rob Collie (00:41:03):
Okay, we can now rest assured that being transparent will keep us in the upper percentiles basically forever, because vulnerability is always... It's going to be something that's uncomfortable. There you go, durable business advantage.
Carson Heady (00:41:18):
I love it. Here's the key element, is I've been in sales for a long, long time, and it was always taught to me to never let them see a bleed and to be able to withstand anything. And that's just not reality. Don't get me wrong, you can be the strongest person there is and you can not let folks see a sweat, but your team isn't going to believe that you're a real role model.
Carson Heady (00:41:44):
We spend a lot of time here at Microsoft from a leadership standpoint talking about modeling the behavior, coaching the behavior, and ultimately caring about the people and they're plight. And if you act like you're bulletproof and put up this unrealistic facade you're not going to get... People aren't going to buy into you. It's just that simple. I think a lot of times about just tough conversations.
Carson Heady (00:42:08):
You talked about Brene Brown, one of the biggest takeaways that I had with dare to lead is that oftentimes when we have a tough conversation or we have the apprehension around having a tough conversation, it's not about them. It's about us. It's about our own discomfort.
Carson Heady (00:42:21):
When I have a tough conversation with somebody that I work with or a tough conversation with a customer, whatever it is, a lot of the angst that I take into that is about my own discomfort. Like, man, I don't feel like doing this, or man, I don't want to deliver this news. Or I'm just going to sidestep the confrontation because I don't want to feel uncomfortable. And we've got to own that. That's really helped me transform a lot, because I will tell you in my younger days as a leader, because I didn't know any better, I thought it was so important that my team never saw me make a mistake. Never saw me do anything that was... Showed the slightest hint of weakness or uncertainty, or whatever it was. And that's just not realistic.
Carson Heady (00:43:00):
Being able to tell somebody, "I don't know the answer but let's go find it together." Those are the types of things that help you become that trusted advisor, whether you're working with a customer or a colleague, because they know that they can go to you every time they have a conundrum of that ilk. You're going to become somebody that's going to be in the boat with them as opposed to somebody that is on a different plane.
Rob Collie (00:43:22):
You mentioned that when you're younger you were different about this. The lessons that we learn in middle school, they carry some momentum. I wasn't getting beaten up in the hallways by vulnerable people, that wasn't... The bullies didn't really advertise what was really going on with them. Even when we were younger, it speaks to, like you were saying earlier, this isn't critical mass. If you'd had role models that had taught a different... I think it was you that hinted on the... Not hinted at, you said directly, that the culture that you're immersed in is going to dictate a lot of your defaults.
Rob Collie (00:43:54):
If we grew up with and just lucked into really, really, really positive, early role models that bucked that trend, I think we... Most of us, well, I don't know, maybe I'm being too gracious, but I think a lot of us would happily take that more authentic route.
Rob Collie (00:44:09):
When I joined Microsoft in the 90s, an organization, if there ever there was one, an organization that was populated by people who were being stuffed in lockers in middle school, this was like the greatest concentration of bullies victims in the world at the time. And still to go... And certain teams were worse than others, the Windows team in the 90s was just vicious. They were so mean. The whole organization operated out of fear and intimidation and threatening, a lot of demeaning. It was just part of how they operated.
Rob Collie (00:44:46):
And I worked in the relatively calm and soft nerf-lined world of Office by comparison. But even in Office, there was a lot of abusive behavior there. I know that all of that has gotten much better over time, but this was my indoctrination.
Rob Collie (00:45:03):
Well, I had the opportunity at one point to change teams and take the better move for my career and join the Windows team. And I said, "Oh no, no way. I'm not going over there." It was brutal.
Carson Heady (00:45:15):
No, but I think on the flip side you hit on something that's crucial for us to double down on, which is I cut my teeth in a one call close environment, which was basically, like years ago before Microsoft, it was like a PG13 version of the Wolf of Wall Street every day.
Carson Heady (00:45:29):
But to be able to go through that and to understand it, and understand what worked and what didn't and now parlay that into my current environment, we're all a product of environment, but also experience.
Carson Heady (00:45:41):
You're able to learn from these things, what works, what didn't, what gave me meaningful connection and what didn't. I think it's key that we're able to hit on that and acknowledge it and evolve. I think that's crucial. And that's what over time, a new day dawned when I realized two things about sales. One, how important it was that it was a team sport, and two, how important it was that you focus on the relationship, not on the sale itself. And that's what changed my entire career.
Rob Collie (00:46:08):
And I'd heard that from others before, but so many things in my life, I can hear it, I can read it in a book, and I can nod and go, "Yeah, yeah. Obvious." But never really understand it. Until one day I live it, and then I go, "Oh, oh, okay. That's what they were talking about."
Rob Collie (00:46:28):
I think I get it now. This isn't the first time I've heard it, but it's probably one of the first few times I've heard it said so directly and have me actually understand what's being said, as opposed to just going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah."
Rob Collie (00:46:38):
Some sentences you just can't disagree with. So you agree, but that doesn't mean that you actually get it. I think it's one of the most, if not all of the most valuable things I've learned in my life, are of that category. They don't sound like genius. They don't sound like innovation, but if you really lean into it, if you make that a guiding principle and not just one of many things that you believe to be true, it changes the way the world works.
Rob Collie (00:47:04):
Let's go back to that question I had earlier, which is on an average day in your professional life, what percentage of the time are you spending with fellow Microsoft employees versus with customers?
Carson Heady (00:47:15):
That's a good question. I strive for as much customer time as I can, but also leading a team there is a healthy balance of ensuring that I'm keeping up with team meetings, one on one meetings, coaching sessions, et cetera.
Carson Heady (00:47:28):
I'd probably say 20 to 30% is with customers. I do a lot of the prospecting with my team and I leverage the fact that I am in a position where I can be a support resource for customers. I like to be in the field with my team, even if it's virtual in this case a lot of times, because my team's all over the country. But I like to be with the customer, because it does two things for me, Rob. One, it helps me stay at the pulse of what matters in our industry so that I can articulate that when I go spend time with my team or work with other customers.
Carson Heady (00:48:06):
But the other thing it does too is it shows that I am there, I'm a part to that team supporting them. That is so critical, because we hit on that earlier. A lot of times, if customers feel like you're either not present or you only show up during certain compelling events, it gives them the opposite impression of what we're trying to create. Which is not just a culture of our team but a culture with customers. We want to be true collaborative partners.
Carson Heady (00:48:30):
And that word gets thrown around a lot. So what I believe that means is spending as much time as I can actually with the customers so that they see us as a actual partner and collaborator, and then looking proactively for things that we can do together as opposed to just things that we can do that involve my company.
Krissy Dyess (00:48:48):
I worked in a sales organization prior to coming to P3. I wasn't a sales person but I worked with the data and the analytics and the clients, and improving. And that culture of sales, everything that I've heard you describe here, and how that really prepares you as you move into leadership, talking about the inbox and you quickly scan through and you figure out your non-negotiables. And that's all sales coaching and sales training. And I just, I feel like there is so much strong leadership themes that I heard here today that are just really a skill that takes time to learn and have those mistakes and grow.
Krissy Dyess (00:49:30):
And I just... Gosh, I'm getting so inspired by just hearing this conversation, because I have a team that I manage and I work with customers. And do you have a coach that you work with on a regular basis, or do you have peers in your organization? How do you continue to be inspired and get energized? Because it is not easy when you're giving that energy to so many people and so many resources and you need some kind of mentor or inspiration, maybe it's Rob's podcast each week. I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:50:02):
Oh, I'm sure it is. Yeah, go ahead, Carson. We need a sound bite of you saying, "All I have ever known in life that was valuable I learned on the podcast that was started 18 months ago."
Carson Heady (00:50:15):
Krissy, that's a great question. At the end of it we all go out with the best of intentions I believe. And we've got our heads down, and when your heads down you can't look up and look around. And I think that's the key difference as a seller. It's so easy to get lost in my calendar, and so there's a lot of people that have been mentors for me over the years. But I didn't proactively go out and look for mentors when I was younger and earlier on in career, because I didn't really know to.
Carson Heady (00:50:41):
It wasn't until somebody invested in me in that way, that said, "Hey, you need some formal mentors." That was super eyeopening for me because I didn't know that I needed it until I got it.
Carson Heady (00:50:51):
And now it's such an important part of the puzzle for me. I'll give you an example, to be able to go out and look at my calendar for the day, how often you see that back to back to back to back to back day. Well, on some of the days when there are things that absolutely have to take priority, I've learned to go in and do the uncomfortable thing of looking at the day and saying, "What could move to tomorrow? Is this meeting mission critical for me today?"
Carson Heady (00:51:15):
And if it's not, then I've got to be able to convey to the person like, "Hey, I had a lot of stuff pop up today. I have to get X, Y, Z done. Is there any way we can push to tomorrow or next week?" Or whatever that looks like. And to be able to have those types of conversations.
Carson Heady (00:51:29):
When you get into that ability to either really have a discipline around your management of your day, those types of things can make all the difference in the world.
Carson Heady (00:51:38):
The other thing that I think is really critical is being challenged to replicate your strengths and superpowers broadly. We talk a lot at Microsoft about the impact that you're having and outcomes, tangible outcomes that you're driving. And so I typically try to coach my team to think about first off, mastery of role is important. Obviously hitting your number is an important element, but if you want to move up, develop a personal brand, you've got to transcend the game.
Carson Heady (00:52:06):
You've got to think about how can I take my strength and do it in a way that it drives outcomes for everyone. And so I really try to challenge my team to think very broadly about how can you take the things that you're passionate about or strong with and replicate these things broadly. And when I had that happen for me, from a mentor, that was one of the most impactful things that ever happened in my career. Because I started consciously thinking about it's bigger than just me.
Carson Heady (00:52:36):
How can I help other people do some of the things that I have been successful with? And guess what? What happens when you do that is you find people that have different gaps than you have, and they're strong in a certain area that I have a gap in. And so guess what? Now you've got a symbiotic relationship where we're both learning from each other.
Carson Heady (00:52:53):
Microsoft is like many companies, we're very much a relationships and resources organization. You got to understand the resources but you've got to really proactively go out and have relationships. Every meaningful role I've been pulled into in my entire career, except one, was because of relationships that I was able to form, people that wanted me to come work in their environment.
Carson Heady (00:53:14):
And guess what? The other one, the one that wasn't was because of something that was part of my personal brand, it was a book that I had written 10 years ago.
Carson Heady (00:53:22):
And the reason that my resume stood out was because I had that one unique nuance applying for a sales management role, I had written a book. And it made that stand out.
Carson Heady (00:53:31):
So think about the ways that you can stand out positively. What do you want your personal brand to say about you? What are the strengths that you want to parlay into success for other people? And how can you go out and proactively seek out people that are doing it better than you are? People that can challenge you to do it differently. Those are the things that are going to make all the difference in the world.
Rob Collie (00:53:51):
What's the name of the book?
Carson Heady (00:53:52):
2010, I wrote a book called birth of a salesman. Sales books are out there and done so effectively that I didn't want to replicate what's already been out there. So I actually created a fictional protagonist and a story, a within a book. So it's a novel but this fictional character writes his own sales book.
Carson Heady (00:54:09):
And I now have four of them. The latest was a salesman on fire, and I did that one in 2020. It's been a really interesting journey. I obviously haven't sold enough to retire. I've been able to talk to people all over the world as a result, and it's been a very career-defining thing.
Carson Heady (00:54:25):
I always like to tell people the stuff that I've done is very easily replicatable, anybody could do the stuff that I've done. You just got to be willing to do the work.
Rob Collie (00:54:33):
When you said your first book was called birth of a salesman and then you said you'd written four. I was looking forward to the adolescence of a salesman, the full life-cycle.
Carson Heady (00:54:44):
As long as I don't do the death, but that's where I got the title, Arthur Miller.
Rob Collie (00:54:48):
Wow, that sounds really challenging. You had to write dialogue.
Carson Heady (00:54:51):
Yeah, I've never been good at that. You know what's funny though, Rob, is I've always been bad at writing dialogue. I tried to write a screenplay when I was in college, I took a script writing class.
Carson Heady (00:55:00):
And I actually forced myself in my third book to write almost nothing but dialogue intentionally to put myself in an uncomfortable spot to make myself better at it.
Carson Heady (00:55:08):
But yes, actually had to write dialogue.
Rob Collie (00:55:11):
That's just brutal. I've written two books, well three, one of them sold so few copies that we don't talk about that one. But the whole thing's basically written in my voice. And to try to write other people's voices and put quotation marks around them. Even some of my favorite authors, when you're reading their work you very quickly figure out if you're paying attention anyway, which character in the book the author wishes they were. They're imbuing this one character with the version of themselves, the most powerful version that they wish that they were. You can see them projecting their own fight club, alter ego into this story.
Rob Collie (00:55:45):
And I read a lot of Roger [inaudible 00:55:47] books growing up, a lot of the sci-fi. It doesn't matter what genre it is, there's always this one character in there that's the protagonist. It's always the same character over and over and over and over again. You just know it's who Roger [inaudible 00:56:01] wishes he was.
Rob Collie (00:56:02):
Oh man, writing an educational book, in some sense nominally a non-fiction work, while still having to fiction angle to juggle at the same time, that's degree of difficulty 10.
Rob Collie (00:56:15):
No. Can you imagine writing a Ax [inaudible 00:56:17] novel, Krissy? It's like this murder mystery with the calculate function.
Krissy Dyess (00:56:24):
I could see it capturing a lot of scenarios around people and their challenges, and the road that they go down of, oh, I'm going to solve it today. No, no, no, I'm going to walk away. No, I'll come back later. I could see there's a lot of that type of scenario. If it gets in the code nobody's going to really read all that.
Rob Collie (00:56:39):
It would just be like a bunch of jokes is all it would be.
Krissy Dyess (00:56:43):
I think there could be some stories in there, but I think if you're going to attract readers it's more around the relationships and the overcoming the challenge. And how did you solve it and what kind of scenario? I think there's a lot of people that could relate to some of that, like, oh, I found this really cool tool but then I got in there. And it was really cool but then it got hard.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:03):
But then I figured it out and it changed my life. I don't know. There could be some stories around that. And if you actually go into our Slack channel, we are just having conversations around this that maybe we should sell a subscription to our ask a friend.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:14):
So I don't know if you know about this Carson but we have Slack and we have a whole team of consultants, and we have a channel dedicated to just questions that people are having. It centralizes, people can jump in, whoever has availability. And there's a little bit of humor in there as well. You have to qualify the humor in that it is people that like [inaudible 00:57:36] and stuff like that.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:37):
So there's a little bit of I guess nerd humor in there, but-
Rob Collie (00:57:41):
Oh, a little?
Krissy Dyess (00:57:41):
A little bit.
Rob Collie (00:57:43):
Krissy's given away all kinds of secrets now. First of all, that we're a Slack org. Now we're also a Teams org Carson-
Krissy Dyess (00:57:52):
That's true, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:57:54):
Because we are a best of breed type of organization, which is really just code for, well, at one point in time we had someone working here that really thought we should try Slack.
Krissy Dyess (00:58:02):
Teams wasn't around back like it is today.
Rob Collie (00:58:06):
See, we've got an excuse. So-
Krissy Dyess (00:58:10):
There is an excuse, there is a very valid excuse. Even now there's so much development and things rolling out of Teams to address the remote experience. So to be fair, Teams was not what it was when we went the Slack path.
Rob Collie (00:58:22):
That's right. That's right.
Carson Heady (00:58:22):
That's what I love about the competitive landscape, it forces us and others to up their game when there's these capabilities, functionalities features that are available.
Carson Heady (00:58:32):
Look at when the pandemic began, and some of the tools that were being leveraged at the beginning of the pandemic for virtual conversations, virtual meetings. There are so many features and functionalities that have been added to these tools over the last 18 months. It advances the technology, it advances the experience. I think that's what it's all about.
Carson Heady (00:58:52):
So I welcome the competitive landscape because I think it makes everybody better.
Rob Collie (00:58:56):
Well Microsoft, if you ever come knocking, trying to convince us to switch to Teams full-time on an enterprise license, just remember we're going to be evaluating Teams versus Slack, primarily through the lens of your Giffy integration and your custom emoji support. Those better be robust or we're going nowhere.
Carson Heady (00:59:21):
It's good to know what matters most know what matters.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:23):
No, it matters. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:59:25):
We left the custom emoji permission wide open on our Slack, just the collection of those moves at incredibly high velocity these days. You've got to keep up.
Rob Collie (00:59:38):
The subtitle of our show here is data with a human element, and we have really leaned into that human element. And I like that.
Rob Collie (00:59:45):
With our remaining time though let's circle back to more of the tech side, Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare. Is this something that you, Carson, in the medical device relationships and all of that, is that particularly relevant in that space or is that mostly focused more on the provider side of things?
Carson Heady (01:00:03):
There are elements that are going to play across the spectrum from a healthcare standpoint, but a lot of it, Rob, is about the integration. So everybody's going to come to the table, whether it's a med device organization, medication management organization, a laboratory, pharma and life sciences, or a hospital, they're all going to come with a different inherent setup, different tools that they're leveraging today.
Carson Heady (01:00:26):
And I think the beauty of a cloud for health as an example is there's two real major components. One, where does it fit in from a data, data sources, data systems perspective, some of the tools that they have in place today. We've hit on a few of them today. How are they calling and portraying their data? What's their electronic medical record? Do they have Microsoft or a competitor for their ERP? A lot of them have a sales force, so do they have a CRM that they're leveraging?
Carson Heady (01:00:56):
And so looking at some of these inherent tools and what makes up the backbone of their organization, and then where does Microsoft plug and play into those?
Carson Heady (01:01:06):
And there's some obvious ones, ways that it can have a data repository and Azure as an example. And then it's very easy to run your machine learning and analytics on top of that and glean insights. That could be one actionable way to make it hum.
Carson Heady (01:01:19):
One of the other ones that could be different platforms that become a part of that solution. So we are currently signing partners to become part of Cloud for Health. We've made some acquisitions recently that add additional layers to Cloud for Health.
Carson Heady (01:01:35):
And personally, when I'm having conversations with a client, with a business decision-maker in one of these organizations, I'm always proactively looking at how could what they do or what they're endeavoring to do fit into this model? Because that's the beauty is it's still being fleshed out for how it can really add meaning for the healthcare ecosystem in this case.
Carson Heady (01:01:55):
So that's a great question, and I think the beauty is it can have some immediate impact for customers but it could also have some long term ramifications that open up ways that we could partner.
Rob Collie (01:02:04):
You started to hint at a couple of my follow- up questions actually there, which is awesome. It's perfect. Teeing it up.
Rob Collie (01:02:10):
So the Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare at its most fundamental level consists of technologies that are already there. Robust, mature things like Azure and Teams and everything, but there's also... I'm assuming there's this layer of solution level glue and customization that's being built on top of and between these things that then turns it into the Cloud for Healthcare as opposed to just all these separate cloud solutions that you can get.
Rob Collie (01:02:39):
So where is that being engineered? Are there dedicated engineering teams that are working on this? Because that is a bit of a departure from the Microsoft that I've known, which is every now and then historically they've gotten into solution specific stuff. But those teams in the past anyway, they seem to be ahead of their time essentially. It was a good idea but just too soon, the market wasn't ready for it.
Rob Collie (01:03:02):
Are there teams now, engineering teams? If I was back on the engineering org, is that one of the places I could work, would be engineering specifically on the Cloud for Healthcare?
Carson Heady (01:03:12):
I think the key element is that it very much depends on what the customer is showing up with. I'll give you an example, like virtual health, that could mean a lot of things to a lot of different folks. And if I'm talking to a health provider, they're going to by default have some kind of posture of tools that they're leveraging for a virtual health experience. It may be with Microsoft, it may not be. But the other element is that we've got a lot of partners in our very robust partner ecosystem that have built solutions that sit on top of Teams, to your point.
Carson Heady (01:03:43):
And so it could be internal to Microsoft, where it's something that's been developed within Teams. I've seen many, many folks, technical specialists, engineering, that have developed some of these tools where it could be for internal collaboration at a health organization, these tools that are built within Teams, where I can very rapidly and in real-time see x-rays, and interact with other folks on that x-ray. Circle something on that x-ray, and that speeds up the amount of time that it takes to diagnose a patient.
Carson Heady (01:04:14):
On the flip side of that with the patient experience, somebody being admitted into the virtual waiting room. Being there, making sure that that information and that data is free-flowing and that the doctor or the nurse or whomever needs that data has access to that in real-time. Now we're talking to each other on a virtual screen. That apparatus is not necessarily solely dependent, relying on Teams. It could be a partner solution that's built on top of Teams.
Carson Heady (01:04:41):
So you're going to see a mix from internal Microsoft, customization and engineering, then you're also going to see some of the buildouts that our partners are doing. And the beauty of this is now we're more often than not looking for customers as partners. How can we reach out to customers that want to or can develop this IP? We can do something very meaningful there.
Carson Heady (01:05:03):
And then ultimately if it works out well we can go to market with these types of technologies also. So the game has completely changed. The landscape has changed, but it's very much geared toward meeting the customer where they are, and the patient.
Rob Collie (01:05:18):
What a fascinating concept. In college I worked for a subsidiary of a construction conglomerate, I basically was a computer guy for this company. And they were up to their eyeballs in Lotus Notes, Lotus notes ran the show and not very well. But it was pervasive. And the headquarters out in the Dallas, they were so up to their eyeballs in Lotus Notes that they'd actually started a subsidiary that was a Lotus Notes consulting org. That's how in on Lotus's Notes they were.
Rob Collie (01:05:48):
This idea that a customer, a Microsoft customer, like a healthcare provider, who would know better the needs of a line of business solution for a healthcare provider than a healthcare provider?
Rob Collie (01:06:02):
There's not some software company that comes along... And it's possible, but a software company's going to come along and start studying the problem, and they're going to nail the software but not understand the problem. And that's always the case. It's always the case, it's the requirements that are the tricky thing.
Rob Collie (01:06:17):
And what a fascinating idea. I love it, that something could be purpose built by a healthcare provider just to solve their own needs, but then could also become this unexpected revenue stream for them if they shared it.
Rob Collie (01:06:32):
Another example of this, I don't think I'm giving away any secrets when I say this, but NPC Universal has a system, it's called PARIS. Participation and residuals information system. And what this thing is, it is a rules engine that is capable of ingesting, not automatically but manually, can express the rules and clauses of any contract ever signed between the studio and someone that's a producer, director or actor, whatever, like production crew.
Rob Collie (01:07:02):
Can you imagine how complicated those contracts can get, that they're limited only by the creativity of the attorneys involved? However, no matter what contract you come up with, eventually it can be decompiled into a set of rules that go into the PARIS engine, that then calculates your royalty check every month or every quarter, or whatever.
Rob Collie (01:07:23):
And this thing is like the Whopper from war games, it's like one of the wonders of the world that this thing exists.
Rob Collie (01:07:34):
It's so effective that they just license it to other studios, so like other big move studios and TV studios, they're just like, "Ah, we give. We're going to license from our competitor the thing that calculates royalty checks."
Rob Collie (01:07:48):
I just think things that are grown really, really, really, really close to the actual problem tend to be... As long as they're well resourced, tend to be the best solutions. What's better than distance zero? That's the first time I've heard this about the Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare, the possibility that some of the solutions might spring from that source. Which is again, I just think it's about as good of a place you could find to get something like that. So that's really cool.
Carson Heady (01:08:15):
It's been fascinating to watch the transformation. Having joined a week after Satya became CEO, to watch the transformation of it becoming less and less about Microsoft being the solution to everything, but more how do we integrate with where the customer is and how do we grow and transform together? Not to mention watching the stock price go from $30 a share to $330 a share. It's been a fun ride.
Rob Collie (01:08:40):
So Carson, what are you most excited to see? What's next?
Carson Heady (01:08:44):
I took in Ignite, and some of the announcements that were made as part of Ignite. And seeing what's possible around the metaverse. And let's use Mesh as an example, how people can be in a shared space with an avatar or with some type of mixed reality, or we're collaborating on the same document. And we feel and appear like we're in the exact same space.
Carson Heady (01:09:10):
Those are the types of things that I think excite me most as a future of work. Look, as a seller for all of my career, don't get me wrong, I really enjoy and like being in-person with my team, with customers. But we've hit on something here where there's a lot of value around what hybrid work and remote work can bring. It's a reality that's not going anywhere.
Carson Heady (01:09:32):
So what I find fascinating is as we continue to look at how we're securing the hybrid workplace, how we're optimizing that remote workplace, those are the types of things that I'm most excited about.
Rob Collie (01:09:44):
Well, Carson, I know we've had this on the agenda for a long time to do this. I've really appreciated your time, not just your time but your perspective. I really do think that the stereotype around sales people is... I think it's earned in general, there are real people out there that embody the used car sales stereotype, and the people who are more slick than capable. And certainly not authentic.
Rob Collie (01:10:09):
But when it's done well, I don't think I've met really, really, really successful members of the species who fit that stereotype. The people who are successful at sales are much more authentic, problem-solving, let's both win human beings.
Rob Collie (01:10:26):
And it's nice to know. I think for anyone that's getting into sales, immediately you're hit with that stereotype subconsciously. And I can't be that person. And the answer is, good.
Computer Generated Voice (01:10:39):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast.
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Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com.
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Have a data day!
Adam Harstad is one of the few guests that have been on with us twice! And we could have him on 100 times and still not cover everything to discuss (or debate in many cases). This time around, we cover some pitfalls that data people fall into including cognitive bias and how people behave in the face of uncertainty, how these traps can be applied and avoided in life and in data, and we do throw in some Fantasy Football talk! Adam is, after all, a key member of the Football Guys Forum!
References in this episode:
The Return of the Revenge of Dr. Blowhole
Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
Instinct Can Beat Analytical Thinking
Calvin And Hobbes - Time Travel Homework
The Revised Psychology of Human Misjudgment by Charlie Munger
The Cube movie
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today, we have The Return of the Revenge of Adam Harstad. Now, it's a little bit of a dangerous game as a podcast host to deliberately bring on a guest that you know is going to repeatedly tell you politely, but repeatedly, that you're wrong. And that is definitely what Adam does. He is a very sharp, very intelligent, and very polite contrarian. The first time we had him on as a guest, he caught me completely off guard. This time, of course, I knew what to expect. We like to say that you don't sharpen one's edge using Nerf. You want to be pushed, you want to be tested, and he does not disappoint. So of course this time around, one of my secret, or not so secret, motivations was to beat him at his own game, even just once or twice.
Rob Collie (00:00:50):
But true to the philosophy, steel sharpens steel, and I did start to hold my own a little bit better near the end. He is of course, a football writer and analyst by trade, and we did talk about some football stuff. But really, even then, it's all about uncertainty. The entire conversation in one form or another comes down to, how do we behave ourselves rationally in the face of an uncertain future? And this is really something that's completely apart from analytics, because the vast majority of analytics and business intelligence does work on certainty and having confident and borderline omission mastery of the things that you know are happening.
Rob Collie (00:01:32):
When you lack that kind of certainty and confidence about the things that are already happening, naturally, that is a tremendous disadvantage, and filling that void makes all the difference in the world in terms of business and in the competitive world. Which is, of course, where P3 earns its keep, it's where we make our money, it's where we provide value. Even in the places where the analytics and BI industry get into things that are actually predictive, usually that prediction is at a very micro level, "Will this particular customer enjoy seeing this other piece of content? Is this particular customer a flight risk? Will we lose them in the next six months?" It's very micro. It's very narrowly bounded.
Rob Collie (00:02:13):
But so much of the human experience, so much of life is not like that. "Should I take that job in the other city or not? How should I invest my money? What go was into a good marriage?" Most of human life consists of making decisions like that in the face of an uncertain future. So in some sense, these sorts of things are squishy, they're not analytical in the strictest sense of the word. And at the same time, there is a chance, there is the opportunity to behave ourselves intelligently in this space. And I'm pretty sure that whenever we bring Adam on, that's the kind of thing we're going to be talking about. It is central to life.
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
And what could be better than speaking with someone very intelligent about something as important as life. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:03:00):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:03:04):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:03:25):
Welcome back to the show Adam Harstad. So Adam, when you were first here, you told us that your family has a saying, "Harstads try new things."
Adam Harstad (00:03:34):
Yes they do.
Rob Collie (00:03:35):
Fortunately for us, that's not exclusive. You don't just do new things, you're willing to come back and do something that you've already done. There's different forms of this statement. And if something is new, does that mean that you necessarily have to try it?
Adam Harstad (00:03:47):
Well, I think you're overlooking the fact that you can never stand in the same stream twice. You can go back and you can go to the same river and you can stand in it, but the river's changed, it's a new river.
Rob Collie (00:03:55):
Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's it. End of episode. Deep thoughts by Adam Harstad. You're right, we're definitely not the same stream today. I'm glad that you decided to come back and stand in our stream, so to speak. You have kids, right? Is the timing right? Did you watch the TV show, The Penguins of Madagascar?
Adam Harstad (00:04:15):
I have not. I'm familiar with The Penguins, but we have not watched The Penguins. No.
Rob Collie (00:04:19):
There's a Penguins episode that's called The Return of the Revenge of Dr. Blowhole. They had this villain on multiple times on the show over time, and so they just go ahead and lean into the return of the revenge. It's a dolphin, porpoise played by Neil Patrick Harris. And The Return of the Revenge of Dr. Blowhole is one of the greatest and most genius things I've seen on any screen ever. It is worth looking up. We'll make sure that we link it. But anyways, this is the return of the revenge of Adam Harstad.
Adam Harstad (00:04:50):
I have an article that I do every year, at the same time every year called Revisiting Preseason Expectations. So the first time I did Revisiting Preseason Expectations, and then the second time I called it Revisiting Revisiting Preseason Expectations. I think we're at year nine, so it's Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Revisiting Preseason Expectations.
Rob Collie (00:05:11):
Have you ever wanted to like use like scientific notation or exponents or something to represent this?
Adam Harstad (00:05:16):
Not yet. Hopefully, Footballguys doesn't get sick of me. I'm there long enough that I get that urge.
Rob Collie (00:05:22):
It's coming. It's coming. So I really enjoyed our first conversation. I felt pushed. I've recovered since then, I'm back on my feet. So we bring you back on, have you push our brains a little bit? Are you down for that?
Adam Harstad (00:05:35):
Sure. Whatever. I'm willing to try new things.
Rob Collie (00:05:37):
That's right. That's the #credo. We talked a little bit in the intervening time over Twitter, direct messages, which are just the most substantive thing that can be exchanged between human beings. There are a couple things we talked about that we might be interested in getting into, and let's talk about common myths or fallacies or traps that people fall into. And as we bounce back and forth on Twitter, you got into talking about a number of behavioral economists. This sounds delicious. You mentioned that there's one person who underpins your entire fantasy football dealing with uncertainty. Who is the hero on the Mount Rushmore of Adam Harstad?
Adam Harstad (00:06:22):
Really, it's a story that has two main characters. And when I got into fantasy football writing, it was 2013, I believe, and a guy named Daniel Kahneman was really hot at the time. He'd done a couple TED Talks, he'd written a book up called Thinking Fast and Slow. Daniel Kahneman is a psychologist who was awarded the Nobel prize in economics, the only non economist to win it, I believe. And he was awarded this for his research on cognitive biases, which are all of these ways that we think we're behaving optimally, but there's these bugs in our mental operating system.
Adam Harstad (00:06:57):
And he and his colleague, Amos Tversky spent decades just meticulously cataloging all of the different bugs in our operating software that they could find. And I was really enchanted with this idea, this heuristics and biases program. And I thought, "This is something I can bring to fantasy football. It's something that I can write about and I can educate people on all of these biases, and we can all work together to overcome these biases and become like this Superman who has transcended our operating system limitations into like the platonic ideal fantasy football players." So that was where I started.
Rob Collie (00:07:32):
We would be making the world a truly better place there, right?
Adam Harstad (00:07:35):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:07:35):
Fantasy football would be like utopia.
Adam Harstad (00:07:38):
And the big him with that is that, really, it doesn't work. And Daniel Kahneman says it doesn't work in the introduction to his book, Thinking Fast and Slow, where he's detailing a lot of these. He says, "I don't have any illusions that this is going to help people overcome their biases. Because one of the biases I found is that you can't see your biases in yourself." It's called the bias blind spot. If I teach you about a bias, you're going to see it in everybody else and be convinced that it doesn't affect you at all. It's easy to spot in everybody else.
Adam Harstad (00:08:06):
And he said his goal with the book wasn't really to improve decision making so much as it was to improve the quality of our conversation about decision making, that his aim was mostly just to improve the quality of the conversation around the water cooler. Sometime around there, I'm not even really sure when, I discovered a guy named Gerd Gigerenzer and I didn't know this at the time, but-
Rob Collie (00:08:26):
Is that a real name?
Adam Harstad (00:08:27):
Yes. Gerd Gigerenzer. Gigerenzer seems like something that Gerd Gigerenzes, but I don't know what Gerd Gigerenzing is-
Rob Collie (00:08:34):
Or Renzes at giga scale.
Adam Harstad (00:08:37):
Maybe. Maybe. Anyway, he is a top-notch Gigerenzer, he can Gigerenze like nobody's business. So I stumbled upon him and I didn't know the backstory at the time. But apparently, Gerd Gigerenzer is the arch nemesis of Daniel Kahneman. It's Montagues and Capulets. There's this huge running feud between the behavioral economists who are all about nudges and heuristics and biases and how to make better decision making given the limitations of our software. Gigerenzer's position is that, "Look, you're calling these flaws in our operating system, but they're not really flaws so much. Sometimes they're adaptive, sometimes they're useful. And in a lot of cases, in cases of extreme uncertainty, a lot of times these heuristics, these simple rules of thumb will actually outperform stunningly complex models. They are investment strategies."
Adam Harstad (00:09:26):
And he's back tested all of these extremely complicated investment strategies about how to allocate your funds. And he finds that the strategy that performs best is one-over-n where if you want to invest in n different funds, you put one-nth of your money in each one, you just do it evenly. And it's very simple heuristic, and it's outperforming all these staggeringly complex. And typically, the more complex and uncertain a system is, the more simple rules of thumb can outreform staggeringly complex ones. Whereas the more limited a system is, the more complex you want your models to be.
Adam Harstad (00:10:01):
If you're modeling chess, you can have a very, very complicated model because there's an unfathomable number of different possible board states, but it's clearly known how you get from one to the other. The rules of the game are very well known. If you're modeling the stock market, you can't really have these super complex models because you've got a super complex model, and all of a sudden, somebody in a wet market somewhere in China catches a disease, and all of a sudden the entire world that you modeled no longer exists, you're operating in a completely different world that you never even imagined.
Rob Collie (00:10:33):
Yeah, they're in that market, they're like, "Hey, I'm going to grind up this bat and I'm going to snort it."
Adam Harstad (00:10:40):
I read an interview with Gerd Gigerenzer on the Harvard Business Review called Instinct Can Beat Analytic Thinking. I've probably linked to that more than anything else, and I revisit it every year and I go back over it. And it was really useful for me. First of all, because it gave me new knowledge. I didn't know that the simple rules of thumb could be so adaptive and so useful. And also because it gave me permission to be lazy, which is what I was always looking for. Because coming up with very complex models is complex, coming up with simple rules of thumb as much simpler.
Adam Harstad (00:11:12):
And it doesn't mean it's necessarily easy because you need safeguards. Anybody can come up with a simple rule, it's hard to come up with a simple rule that's actually good and useful. And you need to test it and you need to expose them to this level of investigation and curiosity. But at the end of the day, I write about fantasy football and I'm competing in a space with people who have very complex models. Like, CeeDee Lamb is a wide receiver, he gets drafted for the Dallas Cowboys and the of Dallas Cowboys already have two very good wide receivers and Amari Cooper and Michael Gallup. And people with complex models. Now, have to say, "How can I fit CeeDee Lamb into this offense? How am I going to distribute the ball among all of these different receivers? How are things going to work out? I don't see the path from here to there."
Adam Harstad (00:11:56):
My simple rule is, if a guy's good, he's going to get the ball. Very simple rule, tested. You can demonstrate it over years. And so then my question is, is CeeDee Lamb good? Yeah, I think he is. He's going to get the ball. Somebody asks me, "How is he going to get the ball when they have those other receivers there?" I don't know. But over time, I call it the Dr. Ian Malcolm hypothesis, and I always post a picture of like Jeff Goldberg shirtless from Jurassic Park, "Life finds a way." I don't know if the other guys on the team are going to get injured, I don't know if just the team's going to throw the ball a zillion times and the passing pie is going to expand. I don't know if somebody's going to get traded, somebody's going to get cut, but over time, good players get theirs.
Adam Harstad (00:12:35):
This is a simple rule of thumb that bears out over and over again.
Rob Collie (00:12:39):
It's so funny. I have such complicated feelings about this feud you're talking about. First of all, I tend to just love it when academics get like really, really, really upset at each other, because it's just so absurd. It's just like next level absurdity and I love some good absurdity. A couple of ivory tower Denisons screaming, insults at each other, but neither one of them dares come down out of the tower. At the same time though, this Gerd fellow, the Gigerenzer, the Renzer, as his friends call him, he seems almost like anti ivory tower. I've been on this whole arc in my life where growing up, I would've been on in my teens and 20s and maybe even into a little bit in my 30s, I would've been on team Kahneman.
Rob Collie (00:13:23):
Do other people want to pronounce that Kahneman ever? Because I've heard people talk about Kahneman, I'm just not sure if they're the same.
Adam Harstad (00:13:28):
Yeah. I have no idea how it's actually pronounced. So if I'm mispronouncing anybody's name and you happen to hear this, I apologize. I'm doing my best.
Rob Collie (00:13:35):
Well, and that's how it is. If you read a lot of things and you're not in the presence of other human beings to discuss these things verbally, pronunciation is actually really, really, really tricky. To be engaged in any intellectual affairs, especially increasingly in the remote world, is to have no idea how these things sound out loud. I have no idea.
Adam Harstad (00:13:56):
Yeah. I think to some extent, this tendency to mispronounce complicated words is probably a good sign of intellectual curiosity. It's somebody's reaches exceeding their grasp.
Rob Collie (00:14:07):
I've just been around a lot of people in my life who always seemed to know the proper pronunciation because they went to the right schools and all these sorts of things. I always felt like this blue collar hick in their presence when I would say something like, "I will not use that German word schadenfreude or whatever because I have no idea.
Adam Harstad (00:14:23):
You got it right, that was right on.
Rob Collie (00:14:25):
I'm still not going to confidently use it.
Adam Harstad (00:14:26):
If it makes you feel better, I think I was 20 when I learned that subtle, I thought there were two different words, subtle and sub-tle. And I thought that they both meant the same thing, until I was 20 and I realized, "Oh yeah, that's the same word."
Rob Collie (00:14:40):
I was playing a game of Trivial Pursuit when I was 12 against my parents. The answer that they gave to a question was something clue related, and they go, "Colonel Mustard." And I go, "No you're wrong, it's Colonal Mustard." I was so excited that they were wrong.
Adam Harstad (00:15:03):
Being wrong is not a big deal, being confidently wrong, that's when things start to get a little bit dicey.
Rob Collie (00:15:07):
Yeah. I was like, "In your face." It was brutal. I have another pet theory of mine, which is that assholes ruin everything. On the one hand, I've come around to almost like this post intellectualism. The idea that these formulas and all you do is stand out there at your chalkboard and do a Beautiful Mind things, and you predict what your neighbor is going to eat for dinner tomorrow night. That's a very comforting world view for nerds in particular. We might not grow up with the best social skills, we might not be the most popular, but we're like, "Fools. We know all. We have the formula."
Rob Collie (00:15:48):
And it turns out that that mindset runs rampant through tech. And it does not really reliably survive contact with the real world. It turns out that the real world is, if you want to talk about it in terms of math, what you've been hinting at, the real math behind all of this is so complicated that no human being could ever navigate it. If you wanted to have a truly mathematical model, it's beyond what we can do. Turns out that sometimes these simple heuristics absolutely outperform your illusion of certainty, your illusion of control. And so when I have come to this point in my life where I believe these sorts of things, I think I would be pretty firmly on team Gigerenzer in this feud.
Rob Collie (00:16:30):
At the same time, I'm aware of the fact that there's were people of multiple different mindsets who would seize on this and take the wrong conclusion from it. "Yeah. See, I told you analytics never worked. It doesn't even make sense to look at the data. Just use your gut." No, that's not right.
Adam Harstad (00:16:48):
I hesitate to say I'm really on team Gigerenzer. He's been more useful for me just because he justifies tendencies that I already had. I don't want to do all of that hard work when I can do something simple that gets me to the same place anyway. But I think a lot of the criticisms of him are very fair too. It's been said that he has zero constructive agenda, which is probably true. In that respect, I relate to him because I sit on the sidelines, throwing bombs. Other people do hard work and say, "Oh yeah. But you made this mistake here. And did you consider this?" And I'm not really contributing. I think it's an important role, but also I don't think it's the sort of role that endears you to anybody.
Adam Harstad (00:17:25):
I think at some point, he gets a little strident and he overstates his case and he's trying to find things that fit his argument rather than fitting his argument to reality. I enjoy both, and I am grateful for having read and encountered both. I definitely consider and incorporate insight from both. I just think as a practical matter, in terms of how I approach things, I tend to be more of a simple rules of thumb guy, that's more of my wheelhouse.
Rob Collie (00:17:55):
Yeah. And I guess even for me, I'm not really on, as you've described it, I'm not really on team Renzer either. It's the other mindset run amok that really bothers me. There's application of good thinking and good models. Clearly, I'm on that team. That's our business. But when it comes to predicting the future in particular, when it comes to predicting macro events of the future, I think that there's an academic tendency of hubris that these things re a lot more foolproof than the actually are. And that's where I think there needs to be someone like Gigerenzer running around calling that complacency. I think it's a useful role.
Adam Harstad (00:18:39):
I wonder too how much of that is selection bias though? From my experience in the fantasy football space, there are people who are very, very certain and there are people who are very, very uncertain. And if you are just casually exploring the space, you're much more likely to run into one of the people who are very, very certain because certainty sells. Their reach is bigger. It gives this false impression about how certain the typical person is in that space just because the most certain voices are the loudest. And I wonder if there's not something to that in academia too. The studies that you hear about say, "This definitely exists and it's awesome, and nobody's ever heard of it or thought of it ever before, and this will change how the world works."
Adam Harstad (00:19:22):
And the studies that you don't hear about are the ones that come out and say, "This might possibly have an effect, but it's a small effect. But on the margins, it might matter a little bit. And maybe we should be behaving slightly more in this manner just to account for the possibility of it."
Rob Collie (00:19:37):
I think it was Fineman, one of the Fineman father, son physicists, I think he explained why he never voted. And he said his two candidates example. You have one candidate for office that says, "This is a very complicated set of problems facing our country. Little sound-bity answers aren't going to do it. We actually have to work on this. We have to think about it. We have to get the right experts working on it in developing approaches for it and choosing and testing between those and all of that."
Rob Collie (00:20:04):
And then you got the other candidate that says, "No, I know exactly what we should do. Damn it, we should just do this, this really simple thing that everybody can understand." The public's going to vote for that second candidate every single time when we need the first candidate. He just said, "Nope, I'm out. I'm not playing."
Adam Harstad (00:20:24):
I'm actually glad you mentioned that because we were talking about not knowing how to pronounce things. And I have a couple good Fineman anecdotes and I've never actually heard his name said out loud.
Rob Collie (00:20:32):
You know what, don't take it from me.
Adam Harstad (00:20:36):
If we're mispronouncing it, we mispronounce it the same way.
Rob Collie (00:20:39):
It might be Fineman. I forget how it's spelled, to be perfectly honest, which is why... I might be adding a syllable in there just to do it. It might be just Fineman.
Adam Harstad (00:20:47):
Well, I come from the hobby that gave us Brett Favre, spelled F-A-V-R-E, but pronounced F-A-R-V. But he had another one of mine. He tells a story about how his dad taught him early on the difference between knowing something and knowing the name of something. That's actually one of Gigerenzer's critiques of the heuristics and biases program. So there's this cognitive bias called loss aversion that says, "If you have something and you lose it, that'll hurt twice as much as if you don't have it and you gain it that feels good." Losses hurt twice as much as gains.
Adam Harstad (00:21:20):
And it's one of the most robust and replicable findings in the field that there's certain situations where it can go away and there's some discussion about what it be causes it and what mitigates it and what the underlying mechanism is but that gets lost because they found this effect and they slapped the name loss aversion on it. And now people think they know it, but really, they just know the name that was given to it. You could call it whatever, you could call it extra feel bad losing this. You don't understand it, you've just observed an effect and given it a name, and that's different than having a model for why, why is it doing that? What purpose did this serve? What purpose does it not serve?
Adam Harstad (00:21:59):
That's one of the criticisms, is that there's a tendency to find a bias, name a bias, move on. Pretty soon, you wind up with a theory that explain everything and predicts nothing.
Rob Collie (00:22:09):
Yeah. This is rampant in the medical community. There's so many things running around that's just names. There's not even any attempt. Like chronic fatigue syndrome. "Oh yeah. It's basically like this lump dismissal of all those people that are always, always, always tired, always low energy. Something's clearly wrong with them, and we don't know what it is. But by slapping a name on it, chronic fatigue syndrome, now we can stop paying attention to it." And that's exactly how that was treated, and basically still to a large degree is. And there's so many things like this.
Rob Collie (00:22:40):
Like when we're in the course of trying to get something diagnosed for one of us or for one of our kids or whatever, and there's this moment where you start to smell it. You're like, "Oh, this diagnosis is one of those things where they gave a name to the thing they don't understand," as opposed to, "No, we actually found the cause." There are some diagnoses that are actually very mechanically specific, we understand what's going on here. There's a whole host of them that aren't.
Adam Harstad (00:23:01):
Right. I think the field knows it. And there'll be some cases where they'll say, "This diagnosis means this." It could be one of like three possible causes, and depending on the possible cause, you treat it differently. But yeah, that's basically all the DSM is, "These are names that we attach to symptoms and here are some things that might work or might not depending on what the cause is, but we don't know the cause just here are some names that we attach to symptoms."
Rob Collie (00:23:24):
The sinister part of it though is that, like you were saying earlier, being given something is sometimes an excuse to be lazy. These terms, they do tend to be a little bit of a dead end in the mystery. I've encountered two very, very, very, very different flavors of medical professionals in my life. There are the ones who are curious and the ones who are just there to apply the flow chart. Heaven help you if you're in the flow chart person's office and you fall off the flow chart. At that moment, they basically kind of make it your fault. I could really go off on some of these biases in the medical community. You really want your doctors to be intellectually curious, and a large percentage or not.
Adam Harstad (00:24:09):
I'd push back on, even limiting that to the medical community. I think if you look at every profession, there are probably some professions that lend themselves more to diagnosis by flow chart. I'd imagine plumber probably does better with flow charts because it's a very simple mechanical system whose causes and effects are very well understood. But fantasy football, there's a lot of flowchart thinking versus curiosity. And I think anything where uncertainty exists, where there's this fog of uncertainty around the edges, you're going to see that same dichotomy between the flowchart approach versus the detective Sherlock Holmes type approach.
Rob Collie (00:24:44):
Well, I'm going to push back a little bit on your pushback.
Adam Harstad (00:24:46):
Please do.
Rob Collie (00:24:47):
Not in a binary sense. I would say that on average, the average plumber I've encountered is a little bit more intellectually curious and willing to go off the edges of the flow chart than the average physician. And this is particularly funny when you consider the reputation that doctors very much want to have as being the smart ones. Relative to the expectations and the image that's projected, I think the medical industry might be the champion in this space. But again, you've got to consider the context and that's the thing that's particularly frustrating, especially when the stakes are that high, as something like your health. To me, it's probably the most egregious industry for this.
Adam Harstad (00:25:25):
It's definitely one, I think, where stakes are the highest. I think one of my big core beliefs is that people are people. You compare populations like Germans versus Americans, doctors versus plumbers. I think a lot of times, we like to categorize that, we talk about bugs in our faulty operating system. And one of these bugs is this burning desire to categorize that everything, and especially to affiliate ourselves with one group or another group. But I think at the end of the day, people are people. What's the famous old article about something like, who'd go Nazi?
Adam Harstad (00:25:57):
Where a writer was talking about, I'll go to cocktail parties and I'll think like if The Third Reich happened here, which of these people would go Nazi and which of these people will wouldn't. They're comparing like the same tendencies and thought. We in America think we're better because we did not go Nazi, but that's really because we weren't in that situation. I think if you put a group of people in a similar context, you're going to get similar results. In that respect, again, most of my pushback is just that I always feel uncomfortable isolating tendencies or habits to a certain subgroup when I really think that most of these flaws, most of these conditions are really endemic just to humanity and to the human condition.
Rob Collie (00:26:38):
You said people are people and I'm like, "Ah, damn it. I'm going to have that Depeche Mode song in my head the rest of the day. And I'm trying to flush it out, trying to flush it out. And then you came back to it and said it again, and now I'm done. Why is it, Adam, that you and I should get along so awfully?
Adam Harstad (00:26:52):
I don't know. I think the real question to hear is, why doesn't everybody get along awfully with me?
Rob Collie (00:26:58):
Oh, come on. I find you very pleasant. You don't agree ever a single thing that I ever say, but I know that now and I had you back anyway.
Adam Harstad (00:27:08):
It's like I said, I'm a bomb thrower, I have zero constructive agenda. I'm willing to own that. I don't know why anybody really gets along with me, but apparently people do.
Rob Collie (00:27:19):
I find you very thoughtful at the same time. Non-thoughtful bomb throwers, not a lot of use for them around my campfire. Gigerenzer serves a purpose.
Adam Harstad (00:27:31):
If that was not a verb, we could make that a verb. To gigerenze is to stand on the sideline throwing bombs.
Rob Collie (00:27:37):
See, I actually think Gigerenzer has a constructive purpose. I just think that for whatever reason, his personality prevents him from leaning into it.
Adam Harstad (00:27:45):
Anything can be useful. Even people without a constructive purpose can still be used to construct events, it's just what you choose to do with what's handed to you.
Rob Collie (00:27:54):
He checks runaway complacency, he checks runaway hubris. I think that's a very, very valuable thing, especially in academics, because a lot of times as an academic, you spend all of your time in that bubble, isolated from the actual reality. Even leaving Microsoft and going out into the real world felt like leaving the eco dome to me. I couldn't believe what it was actually like out there. We sat around all the time and talked back at Microsoft about how the world out there works, how we should build software. Now, things have changed at Microsoft.
Rob Collie (00:28:32):
Microsoft's increasingly, their software is instrumented, so they know exactly how it's being used at all times. But back then, we didn't have that benefit. So we had to build software. We had to tell the world the way it was going to operate. It was just so silly for a bunch of people in their mid-20s who'd never even smelled the real world. I got out into the wild out here, and I was like, "Whoa, I can't believe it." For example, Adam, this will be a really interesting thing for you. Back at Microsoft, I often had lots to do with data import functionality into various apps. So you're going to import some data from a different source into Excel, for instance.
Rob Collie (00:29:10):
Well, a really simple question. What order should you put that menu in? There's different kinds of data sources, there's databases, for instance, there's web pages, and then there's like XML files, but then there's also text files, like CSV files, comma separated value files, tab delimited files, and things like that. Well, we always put databases first because those were the best. Those were the best, most robust, most real data sources. Those are the professional data sources. So of course those go first. And the least professional data sources, the text files, would always go last.
Rob Collie (00:29:48):
Now, this error has been since corrected, but I get out into the real world and I see no, one's got a database that they're allowed access to, it's all text files, it's all exports. Everyone's exporting, exporting, exporting, exporting from all of these various systems and then dumping that data into their spreadsheets. And I was just sitting just laughing so hard. A decade of having this exactly wrong in the sequence. Nothing crystallizes the experience of inside the dome versus outside the dome quite it like that. It's like any environment.
Rob Collie (00:30:23):
When you're in academics and you have the academic incentives pushing on you at all times, the person who goes out there slumming on the street isn't going to get funding. They're not going to get their grants, they're not going to get published. But we need them, we need them out in the streets. We need them getting their hands dirty.
Adam Harstad (00:30:37):
I like how you anticipated my pushback there that I was going to say, "Is this an academia problem or is this a human problem?"
Rob Collie (00:30:43):
Yeah, I'm getting better. My stead Harstad armor and my reactive armor that moves around. I'm getting there.
Adam Harstad (00:30:51):
Yeah. I'll say, until this year, 100% of what we did was all just CSVs. Because it's the one thing everybody has. Everybody's got a different whatever, but no matter what you're using, you can get it in CSV. And now we got a fancy system where we can just copy and paste directly from a spreadsheet and dump it into our back end. Somebody built us a fancy projection uploader, and now we're living large.
Rob Collie (00:31:12):
Man, that's awesome. I want to see that, just out of curiosity. I've marveled a little bit, and for a long time actually, about the football guy's site and how interconnected everything is. In articles, a player's name is very often hyperlinked, and there's so much structure interplaying between all of these unstructured, paragraphs of texts are fundamentally unstructured. These are things that are not easy to do. You even have a master data problem. How many different ways can you spell D'Onta Foreman's name? At least three. With and without apostrophe. Do you have the apostrophe? Do you have a space instead of an apostrophe or do you just truncate the apostrophe and leave it out?
Rob Collie (00:32:00):
Now, somewhere, there needs to be a master universe of player IDs so that when someone's talking about D Onta Foreman, you can connect that with D'Onta Foreman, the different spellings. And even in my efforts, back when I was really heavy into all of this in the early 2000s, just consolidating all the information I was getting from various sources and aligning like player names, or hell, even just aligning team names-
Adam Harstad (00:32:28):
Yeah. Or the abbreviation, the team abbreviations.
Rob Collie (00:32:31):
Yeah. This is a problem that in our world is called master data management. Master data management tends to happen within a single enterprise. This system over here has this ID for a customer, but this other system over here has the same customer identified differently. In the football world, it's not within one enterprise, it's on the wild, wild internet.
Adam Harstad (00:32:52):
If you're curious, our CMS, it's pretty ancient at this point, our content management system, that's handling a lot of that on the backend. And I think getting that upgrade is one of our priorities. But we have to do a bunch of work rounds. You mentioned D'Onta Foreman. Any player with apostrophes in their name, you have to spell it without apostrophes, and then the CMS will recognize it and put apostrophes in and hyperlink it. But if you put the apostrophes in, CMS won't recognize it because the apostrophes break it.
Rob Collie (00:33:17):
Interesting.
Adam Harstad (00:33:18):
And then like juniors, Odell Beckham Jr, you just have to put Odell Beckham and then it will append the junior. But if you put the junior yourself, it'll come out as Odell Beckham Jr. Jr.. There's still some clutches there that we're working on bringing up to date.
Rob Collie (00:33:33):
That sounds like something that you would exploit. Pretty soon we'll be having the revisiting, the revisiting, the revisiting, the Odell Beckham Jr. Jr..
Adam Harstad (00:33:40):
Yeah. I don't know. I was about to say I don't know how to get CMS to append more than one junior at a time. It might be something to look into.
Rob Collie (00:33:47):
SQL injection something. You'll figure it out. I think that's been, you mentioned it as being ancient, but that problem was, another way to say it is ahead of the curve. There was a solution in place for Footballguys for a very difficult problem a long time ago, and it showed. A data professional, I was always impressed with that.
Adam Harstad (00:34:06):
Well, I think you'll understand too. When I say that a lot of it is organizational philosophy. At Footballguys, and it's one of the reasons I really enjoy being at Footballguys, is everything we do always has a clear vision, we're trying to make the customers' life easier, are trying to help the customer. Which seems like a pretty basic thing, but a lot of businesses, especially fantasy businesses, start out in their purposes to show how smart they are. You'll write long articles, making low percentage calls, and then you can point back to them later and be like, "Look, I called this one. Nobody else was calling it."
Adam Harstad (00:34:37):
And it's about managing your own brand creating a name for yourself. Whereas Footballguys from the beginning has always been a very low ego company. It's about, "Is this going to help the customer? Is this not going to help the customer?" And so we'll do some things that are not really industry standard, we project kick and punt returners, which I think something like one or 2% of fantasy leagues actually use those projections, but for the leagues that use it, this is a very big value add, but there's other standard article types like the Sky's going to smash projections or in DFS daily fantasy sports.
Adam Harstad (00:35:12):
When that first came out, there were a lot of sites that are saying like, "We guarantee you, you're going to get a positive return or your money back." And we had a lot of conversations about, "We can't guarantee a positive return." Clearly they're hoping that they'll get more people get a positive return and not ask for a refund than get a negative return and ask for a refund. That's clearly the calculus there, but we had a lot of philosophical discussions about what happens if we're operating in a world where everybody was following it, our advice? It would be impossible for us to guarantee a positive return. I've worked for various organizations throughout my life and I'm sure you have as well and you know the difference between a really functional culture and ethos versus just a toxic or maybe not even toxic, but just not pointed in the right direction.
Rob Collie (00:35:57):
Even at Microsoft, I worked on so many different teams, that you might as well consider them different companies. There was some background similarity, of course, but there were some functional teams and there were some dysfunctional ones. You learn the difference.
Adam Harstad (00:36:11):
I've said that I think this is the first job I've ever had where I've never once gotten the impression that my boss wishes I was just a little bit more of a sociopath. And every other time I'll say something like, "Oh, hey, my kid's in a play, I want to go see it." And they'll be like, "Oh yeah, sure. Of course, family comes first, but you really need to see it. Do you really want to see it, because you could stay here and work?" And I never get that impression there, it's always like, "Absolutely family comes first, no qualifiers. I don't wish you loved your family less and loved your work more."
Rob Collie (00:36:42):
That's great. One of the things that our company is that I've felt a lot of pressure over the years. Some of it direct, but I think most of it just unconsciously like this devil sitting on my shoulder that says, "You really can't run a business and be humane. You're so naive, Rob." But we've leaned into it and said, "Okay, we're going to remain humane, we're going to be good people, we're going to do good human things." I'll get on all hands meetings and say, "Look, there's two standards that I try to hold myself to, it's be a good human and a good CEO." You have to do both and it's hard. It's hard to do both at the same time sometimes.
Rob Collie (00:37:21):
But what I've discovered is that it's not as hard as everyone would want you to believe, it's this paper wall that they painted to look like concrete, "You can't go through that wall, you just scratch it." It's like, "Really? That was it?" Now, of course, a big part of the problem them in the world, I think is the real power exists at great distance from the problem. Once a company, for instance, is publicly traded, now, it's just pure chasing return, your company as a security is only returning 10% annually, and this other one over here is returning 15% annually, what are you going to do about it?
Rob Collie (00:37:59):
And the CEO or whoever that pushes back and says, "No, we have a really good thing going here. We're doing really good things for the world and for our people," well, they get replaced because the shareholders are in charge. They don't want to hear about Adam Harstad's kids play. Being privately held, I think is a big, big, big part of being able to still do both. We've proven to be very successful. I think we still pretty clearly have a no sociopath rule.
Adam Harstad (00:38:28):
It's good. I have nothing against sociopaths. Sociopaths are people too, but-
Rob Collie (00:38:32):
People are people.
Adam Harstad (00:38:33):
Right. I don't want to give non-sociopaths the impression that I wish that they were sociopaths.
Rob Collie (00:38:40):
Let's not engage in absolutely base discrimination against sociopaths. They have feelings. Wait.
Adam Harstad (00:38:48):
Since this is the cognitive bias episode, supposedly. I think a lot of this goes down to hyperbolic discounting, which is basically the idea that we wait short term gains more than we wait long term gains. The closer something is to us, the more we wait it. And to some extent, the time discount is rational. I would rather have $100 today than $100 a year from now because I can take that money and invest it and there's expect deposit returns.
Adam Harstad (00:39:16):
But when you use a hyperbolic discounting system, it's characterized by things like preference reversals, where you'd make a trade today, and two days from now, you'd make the opposite side of that trade. It's not consistent over time. I get how hard it is to be ethical and to invest in the long term because you always see like, hey, there's these short term gains to be had, "Hey, if I overwork my team here, I'll get this extra productivity for the next two weeks." And you don't really look at, "Well, but then I'm going to lose productivity the two weeks after that as they recover from the burnout and as I give them a time to rest, or maybe I don't give them a time to rest and now I've got higher employee turnover and I've got to replace that."
Adam Harstad (00:39:56):
All you see are those short term gains staring you in the face and everything else is future use problem.
Rob Collie (00:40:02):
Yeah. And there's not a lot of thinking about future.
Adam Harstad (00:40:04):
You screw that guy.
Rob Collie (00:40:06):
Yeah. I seriously, Have you seen the Calvin and Hobbs homework time travel strip?
Adam Harstad (00:40:11):
Mm-mm (negative).
Rob Collie (00:40:12):
It seems like they're up your alley. They're sitting around, Calvin has to do his homework and he's really pissed off about it, so he goes, "Oh you know what, it's six o'clock right now, eight o'clock me is going to have the homework done. So let's just travel to eight o'clock and get the homework and come back." Right you are. So they build the time machine, they go to eight o'clock Calvin, and eight o'clock Calvin is sitting like, "I don't have the homework." He's like, "I'm supposed to already be done. Seven o'clock Calvin was supposed to do the homework.
Rob Collie (00:40:43):
So they both agree at that moment that seven o'clock Calvin is the real villain, and they jump in the time machine to go get seven o'clock Calvin. Awareness of these things isn't some panacea that solves them. I agree with that. But a lot of these things are by significant degrees retrainable. Really simple example, we talk about being good to your future self-in our training. In our training programs when we're instructing people on how to use Power BI, make this a very, very, very explicit theme, is that the original tool for analyzing this, for analyzing data just like standard spreadsheets and stuff, they're not 100% responsible for this, but they are fertile ground for you to learn the habit of neglecting future you.
Rob Collie (00:41:29):
And there are things in Power BI that might take an extra minute or two to set up than they would in a normal spreadsheet. And yet, from that point forward, the next time you need to do that thing, it's instantaneous payoff. You don't need to do any work whatsoever. You can retrain yourself to be a bit better to your future self as soon as you start to think of your future self as a construct, you just introduce that player into your mind space, into your game. I have seen it, I can change my own behavior in the present by going, "Oh, future me is going to be really pissed off." Eight O' Calvin is not going to understand the actions of six o'clock Calvin.
Adam Harstad (00:42:12):
Yeah. And I think, again, this is where I hesitate to call myself purely a Gigerenzer, because I think knowing these biases is useful, even if you can't stop yourself from having them, even if you can't even make yourself aware that you have them, you can build systems, you can build basically safety nets that automate a lot of behavior where this bias would normally kick in. And basically, just take the decision away from yourself too. Was it Odysseus who was going to sail past the sirens and he knew that everybody who heard the sirens cast himself into the sea?
Adam Harstad (00:42:45):
So he had his crew chain him to the mast so then they're sailing past the sirens, trying to cast himself in the sea, he can't because he's chained to the mast. And I think having that knowledge that anybody who hears the sirens cast himself into the sea is useful only if you're going to take that extra step and create that system that takes the decision, takes the agency away from you in situations where that's going to be a problem.
Rob Collie (00:43:08):
On our previous conversations, did I mention to you the Charlie Munger essay?
Adam Harstad (00:43:13):
You might have.
Rob Collie (00:43:14):
I think this would be an interesting one. You know how you send me links and I don't read them? It's time to reverse that, I'll send you a link and then you cannot read it. But I think actually you might, I don't know, I give you a lot of credit. You have a higher chance of reading the thing I send you.
Adam Harstad (00:43:28):
Always follow the links. The fun stuff always happens in the links.
Rob Collie (00:43:31):
Really?
Adam Harstad (00:43:32):
Life hack, always follow the links.
Rob Collie (00:43:34):
What if I attach a PDF instead of sending you a link?
Adam Harstad (00:43:38):
That's fine.
Rob Collie (00:43:38):
Okay. That'll work? So Charlie Munger is Warren Buffett's right hand man. He had this, I think it was originally like a college graduation speech or something, but it's an essay now. So it's about these sorts of biases and things like that. He's using it, for him, this isn't without agenda. He lives by these principles and by awareness of them and he uses it in his business all the time. And so this is a very actionable essay, even just the very, very, very first of these categories of misjudgment that he identify. It'd be pretty interesting, I think, to see if his categories, one to one align to things in these other guys work, Kahneman, or Kahneman or whatever, if basically Munger is rediscovering in parallel the same things or-
Adam Harstad (00:44:32):
He might not be rediscovering. I know the investment community is a big fan of the work of the behavioral economist, and they were one of the first communities to really embrace that probably because there were huge sums of money on the line for being right.
Rob Collie (00:44:46):
Rediscovering or parroting, whatever. I eagerly await your review of this.
Adam Harstad (00:44:51):
Sure. Fire away.
Rob Collie (00:44:52):
The very first one in this essay has had a lot to do with how we've constructed our company and it's just like this overwhelming power of incentives. He has a great way of saying, he is like, "I've always been like in the 90 plus percentile of my age cohort at all points in my life, in believing in the power of incentives. And yet, every year I discover something that shows me that even I wasn't in enough on my own thing, the thing that I believed the most." There's something I think that comes back to what you were saying earlier, was it the hyperbolic?
Adam Harstad (00:45:25):
Hyperbolic discounting. Hyperbolic discounting.
Rob Collie (00:45:28):
Even if you are the most calculating Machiavellian person in the world, if you take a long enough timeline, I think you end up coming back around to things that in certain lights might seem altruistic because what's really good for you long term, is that everyone around you is also happy. We did something that consulting firms don't usually do, we implemented very, very, very aggressive and valuable incentive plans for all of our consulting team in addition to the base salary. It's been phenomenal. There are certain adjustments we've made to that incentive program, like the way the formula is calculated, it's not subjective, it's 100% mathematical.
Rob Collie (00:46:11):
There's no human jet in how much the bonus check is each month. We made changes to that formula that have increased revenue that year, but we can look at it, we can look at the two different trajectories and go, "Yep. That was like a 30% difference in revenue. Just that one little tweak to the incentive program." I don't even remember all those other, I tend to digest nonfiction, I read like the first thing and go, "Okay, I'm going to go off and act on that." But even he and his essay emphasizes this as important as the rest of them combined.
Rob Collie (00:46:42):
Offline I'll send you this essay. We'll also link it, Luke. I'm sure we've linked it before on the podcast because it's one of my favorite things that I've read one 10th of, but it's pretty cool.
Adam Harstad (00:46:51):
I was about to say, better to read a 10th and understand it than read the whole thing and not.
Rob Collie (00:46:56):
Yeah, I completely agree. That's also part of our trainings too, is there's this line we draw in the training and say, "Look, everything above this line, up until this certain point in the training, we really, really, really need you to understand all of that really well. Everything after this, we don't want you to be scoring yourself because you'll tend to remember the things you didn't understand at disproportionate weight to the things that you did. Here's the line at which we really want you to hold yourself and ask us questions and hold yourself to a solid understanding. The rest of this, everyone's mileage is going to vary in terms of how much they understand in their first exposure to it, but that's okay."
Rob Collie (00:47:32):
Again, all these things learned from experience over the years, training people and talking to them later about how they felt about it and stuff. You learn, you adjust.
Adam Harstad (00:47:41):
Or you don't and you perish.
Rob Collie (00:47:42):
Yeah, we haven't done that yet. We've come close once, long time ago, and we learned a lot and changed a lot.
Adam Harstad (00:47:50):
There's this philosophy that people will look to successful companies and they'll try to draw lessons from those successful companies. They'll say, "Oh, Amazon does this. Amazon's worth billions of dollars. Let's do that because Amazon does it." And they're trying to learn lessons from companies that did not fail, which makes some plausible intuitive sense. If you don't want to fail, do what companies that didn't fail. But in reality, all you can say about Amazon is they didn't discover the thing that will definitely kill your company, so maybe let's look at some companies that did fail because they did discover that thing. Let's see what they did and let's make extra sure not to do that.
Adam Harstad (00:48:27):
And that's survivorship bias. The famous example is there were fighter planes in World War II and they were coming back and the general said like, "Oh, we can put a little bit extra armor on these fighter planes, but only a little bit, because otherwise they're too heavy and they won't fly right. So we're going to look at the planes that come back and we're going to look at where all the bullet holes are and we're going to put that extra armor right there." And a mathematician called Abraham Wald said, "No, this is a terrible idea. Put the armor where the bullet holes aren't because if a plane comes back and it's got bullet holes, a bunch of bullet holes on the wing, all you know is that a plane can survive being shot in the wing a bunch of times."
Adam Harstad (00:49:02):
"If a plane comes back and there's no bullet holes in the fuselage, this doesn't tell you that my planes are never getting hit in the fuselage, it tells you that the planes that are getting hit in the fuselage are aren't coming back."
Rob Collie (00:49:12):
Finally. Finally, Adam, I have you. These were not fighters, these were bombers.
Adam Harstad (00:49:17):
Bombers? Okay.
Rob Collie (00:49:18):
Yes. There we go. All right. Podcast adjourn forever. We're going to end on a high note. I know why this is fresh in your mind because there's a tweet recently that Twitter had the foresight to tell me that you would like to tweet, and it's a picture of exactly it's the bomber with the red dots all over it in certain areas. When you see that picture of where all the bullet holes are, the planes have come back with bullet holes here, if you just look at that diagram, it's like, "Oh my gosh, you know what, they never ever, ever hit the cockpit. And they never hit the engines. It's crazy. Can you believe that they never hit the cockpit or the engines?"
Adam Harstad (00:50:03):
Have you ever seen, I don't know if this is way out of left field, there's an old cult sci-fi movie called Cube and the basic idea is a bunch of people get dropped into this giant cube. It's made up a bunch of different rooms, it's like Rubik cube, but it's like 27 by 27. And some of the rooms are completely safe and some of the rooms are just absolute death traps. You step in the room and all of a sudden like the floor turns into lava or the air gets filled with poisonous gas. And I did a whole fantasy football article about that. It was Canadian, it's a cheesy Canadian sci-fi movie.
Adam Harstad (00:50:37):
And the idea is like, if you're going to go into the cube and you have this time to prepare, maybe you want to stand at the exit and interview people as they come out and be like, "What were the worst rooms you saw?" And you can gather all this data and you fill up your notebook and then you go into the cube and you have a choice between two rooms. And one of the rooms is like, everybody comes back, says, "Man, this room is a total hellscape, we barely got out with our lives." And the other room you look and there's no data in your book about it. You're like, oh, "Hey, yeah, I don't have anything about this room."
Adam Harstad (00:51:03):
Go into the first room, go into the hellscape, because all that means is that the people who went into that room never came out and told you about it.
Rob Collie (00:51:11):
Counterintuitive. But again, I'd heard that story about the bombers in World War II so many times, but I'd never seen the diagram.
Adam Harstad (00:51:20):
Oh, it's stark. I'm surprised it took a mathematician to point it out, because it's one of those things where once you see it, you can't unsee it, but also it hard to think about before I knew about this, I probably would've reached that same conclusion because people are people.
Rob Collie (00:51:32):
Yeah. It's the power of visualization. You've got all these different planes, all these different places with holes in them, but until you superimpose all of them on one plane, it doesn't just leap out at you like, "Look at the vulnerable spots. The engines, the cockpit, of course, it's not chance that there's no holes there."
Adam Harstad (00:51:52):
The lesson is, don't take marriage advice from people who are happily married, get marriage advice from people who are miserable in their marriage or whose marriages have failed. Don't get business advice from successful companies, get business advice from companies that went under and say, "Hey, what killed your company? Let's not do that." Take parenting advice from terrible parents not from good parents. It's the old Anna Karenina principle that every happy family is alike, every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.
Rob Collie (00:52:19):
This is one of my favorites as well, the only way to be happy is to avoid all of the myriad possible failures. And so that means if you avoided them all, that means that you're just like all the other happy families, you have a lot in common. But everyone else has this unique set, this unique combination of the things they didn't avoid. I feel bad doing this because we're just switching roles here, but obviously we're overstating this, failed companies are often failed because the leader had no self-awareness.
Adam Harstad (00:52:48):
They need some level of introspection.
Rob Collie (00:52:50):
And they wouldn't be able to tell you anything interesting, but they'll more than likely tell you it wasn't their fault.
Adam Harstad (00:52:55):
You don't necessarily have to listen to them, but if you get like a forensic anthropologist who's studying the ruins of their culture, they can probably figure out what went wrong.
Rob Collie (00:53:06):
I think I'd want to go look for the companies that almost failed and then didn't, that might be my favorite group to talk to. Those are hard to identify because most companies that almost fail don't like to talk about it. Let's do just a little bit of football talk.
Adam Harstad (00:53:21):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:53:21):
And talk about my own biases and everything. I have what passes for a heuristic, which is, we don't know anything. What happens in an NFL season is fundamentally unknowable. Position yourself to take advantage of that fluctuation, swing for the fences and keep swinging. And I had so many opportunities this year to draft Cooper Kupp, and I knew things were changing. It should have been right in my heuristic wheelhouse, new quarterback, new capabilities could be an outlier situation. Take the Rams, take the Rams receivers. No, boring, says my priors. Boring, boring, boring Robert Woods and Cooper Kupp.
Rob Collie (00:54:04):
Those aren't world beaters, those are the singles in the baseball metaphor. They've always been singles, they're dependable, but I don't like the dependable singles. That's not how I construct my teams at all. Boomer bust. At this point, if we redrafted, there'd be people very, very rationally taking Cooper Kupp number one overall, which is just absolutely jaw dropping. It's like one of the best examples of we know nothing that I can come up with. And I didn't take him, not once.
Adam Harstad (00:54:35):
I'm in a unique place in the industry. I'm the only guy I know of who's doing this, although it's possible that other people are doing it and not advertising the fact, especially in DFS, where I think a lot of people try to keep their edge as a secret. But for Footballguys, I do a lot of work on player upside, because it's basically that idea that you're talking about, that the singles aren't really getting you that much closer to the win. If you're not first, you're last right, unless you're in a league that has graduated payout structures. But for the most part, everybody who's not first place, lost.
Adam Harstad (00:55:05):
So you want to take risks that have that disproportionate payout. And one of the things I consistently find is that in terms of upside, we really don't know who has asymmetric upside. Basically upside is a function of expectations. The higher we are on a player, the higher their upside is. And there are guys who we aren't as high and who have that disproportionate upside, and it's tempting to think that we can identify who they are in advance. You thought that, "Oh, Cooper Kupp clearly is not the guy with this upside." But we really can't.
Adam Harstad (00:55:37):
In terms of asymmetric upside, there are some indicators, having a high yards per touch average, yards per catcher, yards per carry, does tend to indicate a little bit more upside and weekly variance. Let me distinguish upside from variance. A lot of people say upside and what they mean is asymmetric upside, which means there's a higher ceiling, but there's not a lower floor. And when I talk about it, I try to be very careful to distinguish that really what I'm talking about is variance, that the guys who have a higher ceiling also have a lower floor and I'm very skeptical of claims to identify asymmetric upside.
Adam Harstad (00:56:10):
But even this symmetric upside, this variance, Cooper Kupp didn't really hit on any of them, he wasn't especially touchdown dependent before now. He doesn't have an especially high yards per reception average, he doesn't operate in an area of the field that tends to lend itself to disproportionate fantasy scoring. And people like you said, they don't really respect the amount of variance that there is just naturally that everybody has. Who has league winning upside? Everybody has league winning upside. We can try and distinguish this guy might have a tiny bit better chance of hitting that than this guy, but the variance is way larger than anybody wants to expect.
Adam Harstad (00:56:47):
One of my rules, I do one redraft league a year, which is where you draft your players every year, and it's against the other people on Footballguys staff. So these are fantasy experts who've been playing for decades and have a lot of experience and they're tested and they're proven, I don't do any of that. I'm team heuristics, I don't do player projections, I don't draft a lot of leagues, I don't have any edge. And so my strategy is always, I draft the guys that they don't like. If normally Cooper Kupp is going in the fifth round of drafts and he falls to me in the sixth round, sure, I'll take Cooper Kupp.
Adam Harstad (00:57:20):
I don't love Cooper Kupp, I don't hate Cooper Kupp, I'm just going to take whatever value falls to me. Then it just so happened that Cooper Kupp was one of the guys that fell to me and I'm just demolishing them all in that league. And of course, I trash talk nonstop about like, how does it feel to be beaten by the guy who drafts off of ADP? How much work did you guys put in the off season? This is my only league. My prep work was 30 minutes before the draft kicked off. How is this even possible?
Rob Collie (00:57:46):
I have this image of you painted up like William Wallace with your sword. You raised the sword to the sky and you say, "Gigerenzer."
Adam Harstad (00:57:56):
Yeah. I talk so much trash. It's funny, I tend to think that I'm relatively unassuming and people might not expect that of me, but fantasy football's supposed to be fun, dude. Why are you doing it?
Rob Collie (00:58:06):
Yeah. You need villains.
Adam Harstad (00:58:07):
Yeah. I view myself as a hero and everybody else is a villain. Their perspective on that might be different, but I think you need heroes.
Rob Collie (00:58:14):
I tend to view myself as a villain, it's fun. You want to take down the villain. We have a guy who's leading our league, our work league, our 14-team work league right now. He's undefeated, I don't think he's ever played before. And oh, he has taken the villain mantle. It was like it was made for him, he was like, "Oh, I put this on, oh, it fits so nice." He's doing really well. It's going to be a real shame when I beat him and knock him out of the playoffs.
Adam Harstad (00:58:38):
But see, that's my thing, that's why I view myself as a hero because it makes the league more fun for everyone. If you beat that guy, it's going to be so much more fun because he did all that trash talking. That's all I want. At the end of the year, all I want is a good story. Win, lose, whatever, I just want something that tells me that the time I spent on that was worthwhile, that I got something from that I will take with me going forward. Winning tends to be more fun, but as long as I get a good story, it was a successful year.
Rob Collie (00:59:09):
Yeah. I like the story, but I wait the story about equal to winning, it's not like 90/10, it's 50% story and 50% winning. Let's be clear. I still can't tell myself that, "Oh yeah. I'm just one of many in the running here." No, no, no. That's my trophy.
Adam Harstad (00:59:26):
You do know that fantasy football is about 50% skill and 50% luck though, right?
Rob Collie (00:59:31):
It is.
Adam Harstad (00:59:31):
Because when I win that's skill, and when I lose that's the luck. So that's 50/50.
Rob Collie (00:59:35):
Oh, I see. I see. It's about 50/50. It's like the chances of a hole in one are 50/50, either it goes in or it doesn't. It is like that.
Adam Harstad (00:59:43):
It's true.
Rob Collie (00:59:44):
There's a lot of things break down to 50/50. It's the magical heuristic. Uh, whatever, it's 50/50. I don't know, I just thought that the Kupp was probably and Cordarrelle Patterson. Journeyman, not even a single, he hasn't even been a dependable single ever, and now Atlanta's like, "Well, let's try using him. We don't have anybody else."
Adam Harstad (01:00:09):
Yeah. I don't fall in love with anybody, I just get whoever falls, and some of my coworkers will joke that I'm basically letting everybody else draft my team, which to some extent is true, I'm drafting the guys that they don't want. But the key thing here is I'm drafting the guys that they don't want at a discount. So basically, I'm letting them give me extra draft picks. I'll trade you my fifth rounder for your sixth rounder. That's what's happening when they let a fifth rounder fall to the sixth.
Rob Collie (01:00:37):
Well, so it's a combination of them and consensus, right?
Adam Harstad (01:00:40):
I'm going off ADP.
Rob Collie (01:00:42):
So you're like wisdom of the crowds against the other 11 people in your league who let those people slide?
Adam Harstad (01:00:50):
But I try to do an idealized version of ADP that's the sense of the market at this moment. If I'm in a league in Footballguys staff, quarterbacks always fall further than they do in more casual leagues. So I mentally adjust for that and I say, "Well, ADP says this is a good deal." But knowing the market that I'm actually in, really I would expect him to go later. But I'm basically just letting them give me, they're upgrading my draft picks, they're giving me a third rounder for my fourth round pick. They're giving a fourth rounder for my fifth round pick.
Adam Harstad (01:01:21):
And I don't think I am better at them at identifying who's going to hit and who's going to miss, but I think if you give me enough extra draft picks, I can probably beat you.
Rob Collie (01:01:30):
Just like Belichick, except he can't draft a receiver apparently. So the way to defeat you or to really handicap you to the greatest degree is to always give you the first pick.
Adam Harstad (01:01:42):
Yeah. When I'm drafting at the turn and when I'm in another league, this is one of those strategies that doesn't scale. Obviously, if you're in a league where everybody's following it, then your chances of winning are one in 12. At that point, everything's pure luck. But that's the nice thing about Footballguys League is everybody has an opinion. There's nobody who's on the fence about players, everybody has their list of guys that they like, so that there do tend to be big deviations between expected draft position and actual draft position, which means there's usually a lot of bargains for me to scoop up on the way back.
Rob Collie (01:02:14):
Someday all of us that engage in this game, this silly yet very addictive and enjoyable game, maybe we should be picking financial securities instead. Maybe we should bring this same game like, "I don't have any particular opinion about which of these software firms is going to dominate their market, but we're just going to do that one over end thing."
Adam Harstad (01:02:34):
Yeah, no, just dump it all on index funds. I say all the time that my approach to fantasy football is basically just, I dump everything into index funds, which-
Rob Collie (01:02:42):
That doesn't sound fun.
Adam Harstad (01:02:43):
Well, it's fun for me. The expected returns just as good and the fees are lower. You're going to spend 300 hours this off season grinding tape and coming to opinions and I'm going to spend 30 minutes before the draft just downloading the app and checking the player list. And we both have about the same expectation of success.
Rob Collie (01:03:02):
Okay. What we really need to do is create some fantasy league where we actually use real money and draft real stocks so that we can draft against each other. We need to be able to use that to harvest a method. We need use the market pricing, the ADP, the index fund against the people in our league who are making specific decisions. So we need to find a way that we can zero-summit like that and take our friends real money. That doesn't sound very good. Let's not do that.
Adam Harstad (01:03:29):
Just make it an auction. Let everybody else overpay. That's the key, don't fall in love with anything, just go where the value is.
Rob Collie (01:03:36):
Yeah. I agree. And take Cooper Kupp.
Adam Harstad (01:03:40):
Yeah. Who I did not love. He was there and it's the five, six turn and I'm looking at it and I'm like, "I guess, Cooper Kupp." But just to show how none of us knows anything, my next pick, after that, I was looking at wide receivers and I'm like, "I want another wide receiver here." And the sharp two guys on my board were Michael Thomas of the Saints and Deebo Samuel of 49ers. And I'm like, "I want a league winner, and I think that Michael Thomas can be a league winner." Deebo Samuel at this point he's a known commodity, there's no asymmetric upside there. And of course, Michael Thomas is not going to play it down this year, and Deebo Samuel is like a top 10 wide receiver.
Rob Collie (01:04:14):
Oh, I did have one question for you. A year is just long enough for memory to fade just the right amount, are we having more injuries to key players this year than usual?
Adam Harstad (01:04:25):
I don't think so.
Rob Collie (01:04:27):
You don't think so? God, it just seems like we are. And I think I say this every year though. We need like an overall variance score for a year.
Adam Harstad (01:04:35):
The only year I can think of that was especially bad for injuries was 2015, was a terrible year for running backs, just famously bad. It's sometimes referred to in the industry as the RV apocalypse, just because everybody got hurt, and then a lot of people drew lessons from that. They didn't view that as statistical noise, they viewed that as trend. And for years after that, a lot of people thought, "Oh, investing in running backs a fool's errand, look what happened in 2015." Rather than saying, "Okay, but what happened in 2014? What happened in 2013? What happened in 2012?"
Rob Collie (01:05:11):
It helped launch Zero RB.
Adam Harstad (01:05:13):
Which has been around for a long time. I have to say, it's started 20, 30 years ago, really. as long as fantasy football's been around and running backs have been as popular, it's been called do the opposite or upside down drafting, but that particular Zero RB article was the right piece in the right place at the right time, and it just captured the imagination and took off.
Rob Collie (01:05:38):
Well, next year, I'm switching to ADP contrarianism.
Adam Harstad (01:05:42):
Yeah. Draft ADP followers. That's what I call it.
Rob Collie (01:05:44):
All right. Well, that's it.
Adam Harstad (01:05:46):
I don't know if draft ADP followers is the best fantasy strategy. In fact, if you have 1,000 fantasy football strategies, I think it's very unlikely that this is the number one or the number two or the number three, but it is the strategy that I am most convinced is positive EV. If you drafted a million leagues using this strategy, I would guarantee you, on pain of death, that you would finish the year with a winning record.
Rob Collie (01:06:11):
Or your money back.
Adam Harstad (01:06:12):
Yeah. I don't give guarantees like that lightly, but it's a mathematical certainty provided two basic assumptions. The first assumption is that players drafted higher are better in expectation than players drafted lower, which seems trivially true. You can go through the effort of proving it, but it's true. And then the second assumption is that players who have higher variants in their ADP are just as good or better than players who have lower variants in their ADP. And that one's a little harder to prove, but I've looked at it enough to feel confident that probably that's the case.
Adam Harstad (01:06:44):
And if those two assumptions are true, I could walk through the mathematical proof that draft ADP followers is a plus EV strategy. And it's perfect for lazy people like me who want to do the minimum amount of work possible.
Rob Collie (01:06:56):
In your pro-football reference t-shirt. Pretty slick, pretty slick. Any just advice for a new habit that people can acquire and the way that they think about things that would be most impactful?
Adam Harstad (01:07:07):
One thing I work on a lot is it's tempting in society, and I think it might be a uniquely American pathology to view everything as a zero-sum competition, that my wins are necessarily somebody else's losses and somebody else's wins are necessarily my losses, that the pie is fixed and we're all fighting for the same pie and we want the biggest piece possible, and that has to come from somewhere else. It's very tempting and easy to see the world that way, when in reality, most of the time, unless you're in a situation like football where the rules are fixed and there's very little uncertainty.
Adam Harstad (01:07:53):
Football is definitely a zero-sum game, what's good for one team is bad for another, but in the real world where the possibilities are not so constrained, it's usually not zero sum. Fantasy football, we've been competing for attention, for audience, for market share. One way we could do that is we can trash other sites and we can say, "Oh, we're the best. We're better than these other people, we're going to steal market share from somewhere else." That's a zero-sum approach. And the other way to do that is say, "Hey, fantasy football is really fun, let's show everybody how fun fantasy football is. Let's let that market grow leaps and bounds, rising tide lifts all boats." And that's the non-zero-sum solution.
Adam Harstad (01:08:31):
And fantasy football over the last 20 years has experienced massive non-zero-sum growth where everybody's doing better today than they were 20 years ago. And in all areas of my life, I try to look at it through that lens. And sometimes it's conscious effort where it's very tempting to say, "I want to do something that's good for me," and it's going to come at the expense of someone else, where if I often reframe it and say, "I want to do something that's good for someone else." And often this will redouble to my benefit as well. That's not necessarily why I'm doing it, but the pie is not fixed.
Rob Collie (01:09:04):
Well, I'm super, super, super tempted to skewer you with your own sword and say, "Well, but Adam, people are people and this isn't just an American thing now, is it?" But I think you're right.
Adam Harstad (01:09:14):
Yeah. Well, everybody's a function of their context. And I think the context is uniquely American there.
Rob Collie (01:09:20):
So we need to change the Depeche Mode's song, People Are People, but context matters.
Adam Harstad (01:09:25):
Context always matters.
Rob Collie (01:09:26):
I will be rewriting the lyrics today. I won't sing it because I can't sing, but I'll definitely rewrite the lyrics. Adam, thank you so much. Really appreciate you coming, especially on such short notice. This was a hastily scheduled, urgently scheduled, and I appreciate your flexibility.
Adam Harstad (01:09:40):
Well, if there's one thing you should know, it's that I'm not going to prepare either way.
Rob Collie (01:09:44):
Well, you've come to the right place. Thanks man. Much appreciated. Have a good one.
Adam Harstad (01:09:49):
Awesome.
Announcer (01:09:50):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
For our 50th episode a few weeks ago, we shared an episode that Rob recorded with his grandfather, Bob "Pop" Collie. We had some content that didn't quite fit the vibe of the episode, and we just didn't feel right about keeping this amazing stuff to ourselves!
It's a lot of Pop Collie's Navy stories of him being goofy, how he played football for a legendary college coach, and how a series of strange events led to him meeting his wife!
References in this episode:
Incredibles Cape Scene
Good Will Hunting Wicked Smaht Scene
Mary Fealty (@Br0adtree on Twitter) is a prime example of the spirit of "Why not?" that we've been exploring as of late! She is a Power BI early adopter (we like to call folks like Mary a Power BI OG!), and her experience and knowledge place her as a leader in the data solutions field. Mary is an "Analytics Wildling," and we think her way of looking at things is a peek into what the future of BI is like.
Check out what Mary does at BroadTree Solutions!
Mary Fealty-Analytics Wildling
References in this episode:
Letterkenny - Do What You Love
Needful Things - Weapons Scene
The Fourth Turning: An American Prophecy - What the Cycles of History Tell Us About America's Next Rendezvous with Destiny by William Strauss
Pulp Fiction Deleted Scene - Beatles or Elvis?
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Mary Fealty, and oh my gosh, what a luminous human being she is. We had just a fantastic time. I in particular really enjoyed this conversation. Because along the way, it became so clear to me that Mary is such a kindred spirit to me. If you listened to the episode with my grandfather, Bob Pop Collie, you start to see where I think I got my personal spirit of, "Why not?"
Rob Collie (00:00:32):
In the course of this chat with Mary, is became very clear to me, that she was a fellow member of team, "Why not?" Of course, we got into her own personal why not origin story. There's a surprising twist in there, that I'll leave for the episode.
Rob Collie (00:00:48):
In the course of this conversation, I think we also coined a new term, "Analytics wildling." We discovered that term quite by accident, while introducing a potential new running feature for the show. We're tentatively and conservatively referring to this new feature as The Five Questions of Doom. Her answer to one of those five questions of doom was initially very disappointing, and I was also very disappointed in Tom's answer to the same question. I say disappointing in jest. But then it took a turn for the very much not disappointing.
Rob Collie (00:01:23):
For the debut of this new feature, I can't imagine anyone ever matching her answer to one of those five questions. I thoroughly enjoyed meeting her. I'm so glad we did this. I also think that no one really personifies the future of data better than her. We had an awesome time. I think that'll come through in the audio. I think you'll hear it for yourself, and let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:47):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:51):
This is The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:15):
Welcome to the show. Mary Fealty, how are you today?
Mary Fealty (00:02:19):
I am very, very well.
Rob Collie (00:02:20):
That's great. I've known you as a Twitter personality for a long time now. I know, it's a weird thing, this internet. The inter-tubes, or whatever we call them. But yeah, I've been following you for a long time. Figured, "Hey, let's reach out across the pond." Where are you located?
Mary Fealty (00:02:38):
I'm based in Northern Ireland.
Rob Collie (00:02:41):
It's become interesting, with the whole Brexit thing, right?
Mary Fealty (00:02:44):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:02:44):
Once again, the whole Ireland, Northern Ireland thing is back in the news, thanks to Brexit. It's incredibly complicated. I've lost track of what's really going on. I really have no idea. But it's an interesting time, to say the least, over there, with supply chain, and all of that.
Mary Fealty (00:03:01):
Yes. There's a thing called protocol, and that would appear, I'm not much wiser than you. Politics and I are, particularly Northern Ireland politics, is something I steer away from. It's just better that way.
Rob Collie (00:03:14):
Yeah, I understand.
Mary Fealty (00:03:14):
But I have a brother who is a political pundit. I just rely on him for all information around what is actually happening, if I'm interested enough. On this occasion I'm not. Brexit happened, that was unfortunate. It's causing an awful lot of problems, and potentially major problems. But let's hope it never comes to that.
Rob Collie (00:03:39):
Leaving the gym today, we were talking to someone who said, "Yeah, I'm going to leave here, and I'm going to go try to find Diet Coke somewhere. I haven't been able to get Diet Coke. It's not on the shelves around here." It's like, "Oh man, what has the world come to?"
Mary Fealty (00:03:52):
I know.
Rob Collie (00:03:52):
You know? Luke, do you still drink diet coke by the gallon?
Luke (00:03:56):
I'm a Diet Pepsi guy. You might have seen me chugging on it. I've already had issues with trying to find it, but I always do. I think south Florida, we're just diet conscious, or whatever. I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:04:06):
Well, you're a priority, because you're the most dangerous, south Florida.
Luke (00:04:11):
Just the entire state?
Rob Collie (00:04:13):
We don't want a south Florida uprising.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:15):
South Florida Man.
Rob Collie (00:04:16):
We really don't want to be poking that bear. Indiana? Why not poke Indiana? What's Indiana going to do? Are you experiencing things like that over there, Mary? Just-
Mary Fealty (00:04:28):
No. Thankfully, we're not. There's a lot of stuff about it in the media, but in reality, no. Nothing yet. You get a lot of stuff now saying Christmas is going to be challenging. We'll get there, and we'll find out if that's true or not. But so far, honestly, we're no longer going in to the supermarkets to see what the stocks are like. Because of everything, we've gone online shopping. You're not necessarily going and seeing areas that might be-
Rob Collie (00:04:55):
Empty shelves.
Mary Fealty (00:04:56):
Yeah, so no. So far, so good.
Rob Collie (00:05:01):
All right, well that's reasonable to hear. It's reassuring. But apparently, it sounds like you have our Diet Coke. That's where it's all gone.
Mary Fealty (00:05:10):
Yeah, it could all be here.
Rob Collie (00:05:12):
All right. What do you do professionally these days?
Mary Fealty (00:05:14):
What I do is, I have my own company. It's Broadtree Solutions. It is a small company, of me. I provide small to medium businesses with data solutions that almost, we're probably at about 98% of the time, those solutions are using Power BI. I have a sizable amount of customers, where I provide probably simple, but highly effective solutions for them, around their data needs. Usually presented in Power BI in some fashion.
Mary Fealty (00:05:53):
It's not a particularly large business, and it will never be a particularly large business. I do what I love, which is, not everybody can say that. I absolutely love working with Power BI. The fact that people pay me to do it, value what they get at the end of it, just keeps me very happy.
Rob Collie (00:06:12):
Is the show Letterkenny available in Northern Ireland? Have you heard of Letterkenny?
Mary Fealty (00:06:17):
The place?
Rob Collie (00:06:18):
Well, okay. See, now of course it would be a recognizable name. It's about a fictional town in Canada.
Mary Fealty (00:06:25):
Right?
Rob Collie (00:06:26):
Where is the real Letterkenny?
Mary Fealty (00:06:28):
The real Letterkenny is in Donegal, which is above us here in Northern Ireland. But weirdly, it's part of the south. Think of Ireland, right?
Rob Collie (00:06:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Mary Fealty (00:06:36):
You picture it sitting there, beside Britain. We're up at the top. But above us is Donegal, and Donegal is part of the south, if that makes sense. Letterkenny is the primary town of Donegal.
Rob Collie (00:06:54):
Okay, I get the tie in. There's a lot of Scotch-Irish, a lot of Irish descent in Canada.
Mary Fealty (00:06:57):
Absolutely, my partner's Canadian.
Rob Collie (00:06:59):
Oh yeah? Okay.
Mary Fealty (00:07:00):
Yeah yeah yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:01):
The reference was, one of the repetitive sayings on the show is, "Do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life." That's where you're at.
Mary Fealty (00:07:13):
That's where I'm at, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:14):
You said something really, I think worth magnifying, just a minute or so ago. Which was, "Simple, but very effective." You said this is just some of the stuff that you do, so it's not the entirety of it. But I completely get it. I completely get what you're saying. Another recurring theme on this show is, we're always talking about how the pundits of the data space, their job is to always talk about something in the future. Something far in the future.
Rob Collie (00:07:42):
I saw somebody the other day, who I respect. I forget who it was. Her theme these days is, "Beyond dashboards." In order to be in that punditry business, you have to be pushing that edge, right? Always.
Mary Fealty (00:07:54):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:54):
But the reality is that the next big thing in data isn't any of those things. The next big thing in data is having the basics done well, for the first time ever.
Mary Fealty (00:08:04):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:08:04):
The vast majority of the current value yet to be realized is getting those things, the things that we would all want to consider to be table stakes, getting them done well for the first time ever is magical. When you say, "Simple, but very effective," inside my brain I'm just nodding. I'm like, "Oh yeah." Not that everything we do is simple either. But don't underestimate the impact of what we would consider simple for our clients. I got the spirit of what you were saying. You said it in three words, and I said it in 300, which is my usual thing. But I'm with you.
Mary Fealty (00:08:45):
Yeah, and you're right. Some of these things, behind the scenes, are not simple at all. Some of them are really challenging, which is part of the fun. But ultimately, what an SME is looking for, is not the enterprise stuff. They don't need that, and I don't provide that. That's absolutely fine, because it's overkill. It's way beyond anything that's within their remit, or their needs. That sums up what I do, in the simplest way.
Rob Collie (00:09:14):
This is always basically an impossible question to answer, but we make our best effort. What's a typical client look like for you?
Mary Fealty (00:09:20):
I do have a very, very common thread with the bulk of my customers. That is insurance. I have an awful lot of insurance brokers as my customers. The primary reason for that is, that's my background. Their data is, we talk the same language. As a result of that, then I'm able to work with them very closely. I understand their business, and I understand what it is they need very quickly. Because they don't have a huge amount of time to sit down with somebody.
Mary Fealty (00:09:52):
There's no such thing as requirements gathering. These guys, their focus isn't there. They just want something, and they want to be able to say to somebody, "This is what I need." Most people aren't going to be able to understand that need, unless you've got some experience, and I've got a huge wealth of experience there. That's what my most technical customer will look like.
Mary Fealty (00:10:13):
Outside of those, because that's bread and butter. That's everyday. Those customers come back for more. They have another need, and they have another requirement. I'll deliver on that. But then the stuff that comes along outside of that would be anything from, I've worked on pretty sizable projects. I've done really random things. I've pushed Power BI into areas that it never was really designed for. But because it's my go to, I can always figure out a way of making it do things that perhaps it wasn't designed for.
Mary Fealty (00:10:49):
Then other ones would be much bigger players. I get the opportunity occasionally to work on much bigger projects. I don't like long term projects. I don't have the attention span for a long term project. I like things to be fresh, and just get the job done. But I have done a few of them, and I've been very proud of what I've delivered.
Rob Collie (00:11:13):
Keeping things fresh is crucial. When it was still just me, years ago, I had an early client. I had all of this weight, this angel and devil on either shoulder, that were constantly talking to me. The devil on my shoulder represented the ghost of consultants past, who were always looking down on me, going, "Oh, you're doing it wrong. Tsk tsk."
Rob Collie (00:11:39):
There was this moment where a client needed, and this was back when we still just only had Power Pivot. There was a moment where my client was going to go and make the same modification to 50 different reports. Or I think it might have been a cube formula report, and there were thousands of cells that they needed to modify. But it was the same modification for each, and they were going to go do that with labor on their side. I was like, "Oh, no no no no no. Let me write you a macro."
Rob Collie (00:12:02):
I wrote the macro, and it was a great little macro. It did the job. At that moment, the devil popped up on my shoulder and said, "Now you've got them. You've got this macro. You can charge them almost anything you want, every time you run this macro. Because whatever you charge them for this, it's still going to be way better than them spending the 100 hours it would take them to go and do this on their own. You've created something of tremendous value here, Rob. Don't blow it. Whatever you do, Rob, don't give them the macro. Don't give them the macro," says the devil.
Rob Collie (00:12:32):
I ran it one time, billed them for running it, and then I gave them the macro. There was just no way that I wanted to be involved in running that thing for them. The altruism of being good to them was real, and the desire to monetize it was also real. But those things, I put those things in the back, and let them fight with each other. It was just like, "No way. I am not going to be so bored, as to run this macro for them." I'm talking about a click, and then a save. That was going to be so boring, and so tedious, that I wanted nothing to do with that. I did not want to be in that loop.
Rob Collie (00:13:13):
I ended up doing the right thing, and that's been basically our ethos ever since. It was this one time in our early history, we had this choice. Milk it, or no? It was like, "Oh man, milking it sucks. That is not fun," so we don't do that. So I get it, you want to be solving challenging problems, novel problems. When you get to the point where it's super duper labor intensive, you aren't really needed. Someone else can do all of that, once it becomes repetitive or whatever. I completely understand.
Rob Collie (00:13:48):
Insurance, that's your background. Can we dig into that a little bit? You weren't Broadtree Solutions from the beginning.
Mary Fealty (00:13:54):
No, no no no no. Gosh.
Rob Collie (00:13:56):
You did not emerge on the scene, with the logo and everything. Where were you before? How did you first come into contact with this stuff?
Mary Fealty (00:14:05):
Right, so we've got to go back. I worked in insurance, and have done, since probably about 19, is when I first got involved in the industry.
Rob Collie (00:14:14):
When you were 19 years old?
Mary Fealty (00:14:15):
Yeah, yeah. Then in the late '90s, I started working for this very large firm as their sales manager. I had a team of people who worked for me. This is really going back to the nitty gritty stuff-
Rob Collie (00:14:30):
I like it. That's what we do.
Mary Fealty (00:14:30):
But anyway, this is, is that okay-
Rob Collie (00:14:32):
The origin story. We want to go back to-
Mary Fealty (00:14:33):
Yeah, yeah. This is the origin-
Rob Collie (00:14:35):
... the primordial ooze, as the Earth cooled.
Mary Fealty (00:14:38):
This is it, yeah. I had a team of staff who were earning a bonus. The method for calculating the bonus was really labor intensive. This is not a new story. This is an everybody story, I suppose. But that was irritating. My brother was about, and I happened to say to him, "This is a really intensive way of having to do stuff.". He says, "Oh, have you used Excel?" I was going, "I don't know what that is." He starts up his computer. He had one, I didn't. He showed me Excel, and I went, "Oh, right. Okay."
Mary Fealty (00:15:10):
He started talking to me about how you could use this to simplify things. I went, "Right, right. This is fascinating." I just was like, "Wow," and went back to the office. Obviously he wasn't there. Managed to speak to my boss, and say, "You've got to get me this program called Excel. You've got to get me it. It's critical. It's absolutely critical." He says, "You can have this, Lotus 123." I went, "No, no. I don't want that. I want Excel."
Rob Collie (00:15:37):
"No, not that one."
Mary Fealty (00:15:37):
Yeah, yeah. "I've seen it. I know what it can do." He agreed. He thought, "I'll shut her up," and managed to get me the software. That's insane, software, Excel. But yeah. I remember then, trying to figure out what it was that my brother showed me how to do.
Rob Collie (00:15:55):
Is this the same brother that's the political pundit?
Mary Fealty (00:15:57):
No, no. This is a different brother. This is-
Rob Collie (00:15:58):
Okay, I was going to say, I can't imagine them being the same.
Mary Fealty (00:16:01):
Oh gosh, no. They are not the same. They are not the same, no. This is the project manager guy who's, yeah, yeah. He fits the Excel knowledge. So I'm going, "How did he do all of that?" But you know what it's like.
Rob Collie (00:16:12):
I do.
Mary Fealty (00:16:13):
You start figuring it all out, and you go, "Oh, right, right, right." Really did involve VLOOKUPS from day one, which was done very pearly, but nonetheless, made it work. That was the beginning of it. I think that just blew my mind. I was able to enter just a bonus structure. That was part of it, because I wanted to change the bonus structure that existed, but I couldn't figure out how to sell this concept to my bosses, and managed to figure out, using Excel, how I was able to demonstrate, this was definitely worth a punt, of changing the bonus structure. Could be more costly, but could be way more beneficial, etc. The performance of the team changed dramatically.
Rob Collie (00:16:52):
Wow, this sounds really familiar.
Mary Fealty (00:16:54):
It was real. It was absolutely real. It was partly driven by the fact that there was greater motivation. But the ability to manage that, and measure it, and be able to provide people with daily updates on where they were. All of that stuff just made such an impact. But that was me hooked. Absolutely hooked on the power of data.
Rob Collie (00:17:16):
What a cool story. What a really, really, really cool story. Did you simulate the impact of the change? You'd run some scenarios, some examples?
Mary Fealty (00:17:26):
Yes, there was an element of that. There was a lot of the what ifs. "What if we do it this way?", and, "This is what it will cost," but this is the value. But probably in, I can't pretend that it would have been highly sophisticated.
Rob Collie (00:17:39):
It doesn't have to be. It's not Monte Carlo.
Mary Fealty (00:17:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:17:43):
It's not like we're introducing random variables to measure fluctuation in Six Sigma. Upper bound, lower bound. We call this war gaming at P3, behind the scenes in the back office. When we want to make a change like that. We build one of those simple, but still very, very effective spreadsheet models, and plug a bunch of different scenarios into it. Scenario is just a fancy way of saying changing a few cells, and writing down what comes out. Yeah, no Monte Carlo for us either.
Rob Collie (00:18:14):
We certainly don't run simulations that predict, "What's the possibility of a pandemic?" We're not Wall Street. In fact, even Wall Street isn't good at that. They claim to be, but they're not.
Mary Fealty (00:18:25):
Yeah, no.
Rob Collie (00:18:25):
Who could have predicted this?
Mary Fealty (00:18:27):
No one.
Rob Collie (00:18:27):
What a cool story. This is just another reference, I can't resist. Have you seen the movie Needful Things?
Mary Fealty (00:18:33):
No.
Rob Collie (00:18:34):
The devil comes to this New England town, and starts this progressive acceleration of getting people to fight with one another. The movie builds to a climax, and everyone's at each other's throats. The devil confides in the sheriff. He says something like, "But in the end, I always give them weapons." In the end, we always give you Excel. They always give you Excel, and that's when it gets real, doesn't it?
Mary Fealty (00:18:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:00):
I could see that gleam in your eye. Very specific. I could almost see you going through this process.
Mary Fealty (00:19:05):
Oh, I mean Excel, right? That was using it that way. Then my next Excel moment, it was a chap who would have come into the office to see us for whatever reasons. Anyway, we were sitting together, and he was a real Excel man. He showed me pivot tables. I just sat there going, "What is this magic you are doing in front of me?" That was fine.
Mary Fealty (00:19:27):
He left, and then I was going, "Right, what did he do, and how did he do it?" I think I must have spent about a week, trying to figure out how the hell he did what he did. This was back in the day, where you just couldn't Google things. You had to try and figure it out. Trying to do it from memory, going, "He definitely did this." But I did figure it out.
Mary Fealty (00:19:48):
That was another moment of just sheer, that was the first one, was just being able to use it, and use it effectively, and have it actually do something for me. Then the second one was just pivot tables in general. Just going, "These things are just absolutely mindbogglingly, crazily valuable. How can the world not know all about pivot tables?"
Rob Collie (00:20:06):
So VLOOKUP first, and then pivot tables?
Mary Fealty (00:20:08):
Yeah, I never was the biggest fan of VLOOKUP. Don't know why.
Rob Collie (00:20:14):
Well, the only people who are fans of VLOOKUP are the people who are on their first day of using it. It's just so much better than manually copying and pasting data-
Mary Fealty (00:20:25):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the alternative. The alternative to VLOOKUP, absolutely. Absolutely.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:28):
Yeah, the alternative, use a database. But that's okay.
Rob Collie (00:20:31):
Stop it. Just stop it. Let's stay realistic here.
Mary Fealty (00:20:35):
Yeah, that came later. That came later.
Rob Collie (00:20:37):
Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, it's a gateway drug.
Mary Fealty (00:20:40):
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
Rob Collie (00:20:41):
I might want to revise my Max von Sydow as the devil statement. "But in the end, I always give them pivot tables." Maybe that's the real quote. Yeah, so you were learning pivot tables, without the benefit of Google.
Mary Fealty (00:20:56):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:20:57):
As a little bit of a self plug, you were also learning the old, old, old pivot table interface. Which was about as computer science intimidating as they could possibly have made it.
Mary Fealty (00:21:07):
That might explain why, yeah. Because it was not easy to learn. You think back and go, "Why?" But it wasn't.
Rob Collie (00:21:13):
All those objects that landed in the grid. It was this weird perversion of the grid. It was just so unnatural. It took me a long time, even working on the Excel team, to find my first real world application of pivot tables, and then figure it out. It was hard. Even working on the team, it was embarrassing. You couldn't go around and ask people, "What are pivot tables for?" You had to just bluff that you knew.
Mary Fealty (00:21:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:41):
Your first killer app was the bonus or commission structure?
Mary Fealty (00:21:45):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:46):
When it comes to knowing the insurance agency, is it primarily through that lens? Policies, and premiums, and all that kind of stuff?
Mary Fealty (00:21:57):
Very, very much of that nature, yeah. It's all about just, what numbers are we counting? I became quite obsessed. Not just about the numbers, but collating the data itself, and storing the data. Recognizing that it had value, even though I wasn't quite sure what to do with it. Because you had to get it out of a system. It wasn't immediately available. You had to make a choice to go and get it. It was there. There was no database to go and query. You had to actually find a way to get it out of the system, and then start utilizing the data within.
Mary Fealty (00:22:25):
I was doing that, and then storing it externally. Well, Excel at first, and then. Because it was back in the 65,000 rows day, so I had to find an alternative. Then that was Access.
Rob Collie (00:22:38):
That used to be one of the five reasons why Access was valuable, was to work around the 65K row limit in Excel, for pivot tables. Because a pivot table cache could hold more than 65,000 records, but the sheet couldn't. Okay, where are you going to get the data from, if the sheet can't hold it, right?
Mary Fealty (00:22:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:22:58):
The million row expansion was one of many nails in the Access coffin. It was pretty funny. Then M, and power query, that Tom is very diligently learning. I'm just kidding. I still owe you my greatest hits training session there.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:17):
Yeah, I have to get to it.
Rob Collie (00:23:18):
Yeah, me too. Me too. It's not like I've ponied up to really push you. I just shame you on social media every now and then, and hope that that little low effort is sufficient.
Rob Collie (00:23:28):
Mary, going back to your first brush with Excel, and the commissions, and the bonuses, and all of that. One of the key elements of that success was that you did manage to get buy-in from your manager, right?
Mary Fealty (00:23:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:23:41):
Someone up the org chart had to buy into what you were doing. That's both buying into the idea itself, just in general. Buying into implementing the changes. But also, somewhere along the way, buying into your spreadsheet. We would like to take these things for granted, that people just see the inherent value in these things. However, that seems to be not the majority case.
Rob Collie (00:24:10):
Have you always been similarly successful in getting that kind of buy-in? Have you lived that charmed life? Or maybe you're just super, super skilled, and just a savvy political navigator, and we all need to take your class.
Mary Fealty (00:24:31):
Right. I think I have been reasonably successful getting buy-in. Not always, but often, because I've already thought about it. I'm not asking for something just for the sake of it. I've thought about it, and I truly believe that it's something, whatever that is. I'm able to put forward a persuasive enough argument.
Mary Fealty (00:24:48):
Maybe there are other things going my way as well, or have been other things going my way. But I think usually, I haven't had too many battles I can think of.
Rob Collie (00:24:57):
That's nice. Of the millions of people listening to this podcast, just kidding, of the millions of Excel people listening to this podcast, they're all crying out, "Why? Why can't that be me?" To what extent do you think building reputation of success has helped you in that regard? You pull off that first major change, with the commission structure. That probably earned you a lot of credibility within that circle, right?
Mary Fealty (00:25:25):
Sure, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:25:26):
Your second, third, and fourth act, all of those are likely to have people think, "Well, we pushed that button last time, and it worked really well. Let's push it again," you know?
Mary Fealty (00:25:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:25:34):
How often have you found yourself, and I'm asking, before you switched to being an independent consultant. Still back in the previous era. How often did you find yourself in a completely new room, where no one knew you?
Mary Fealty (00:25:48):
Well, actually not that often. I can't say that I was that person. I worked in that company that I joined, I stayed with them for 18 years. I was not the new person in the room very often. It was a superb company. I'm somebody who has to learn. I have to be always moving forward. There has to be some sort of puzzle. Not necessarily hugely complex stuff, that's just not who I am. But something interesting, something engaging, and that company provided that to me in spades.
Mary Fealty (00:26:21):
I got to work on all this insurance going online. Selling online. I got to be part of a brokerage in Northern Ireland, being the first people of that scale to go into that environment. We had to figure out how that was going to work. We had to work with developers to figure out how it was going to work. It wasn't that it was done before, because it wasn't. It was pretty new. I was very much a part of that, so yes. They're just examples of what happened during that timeframe. It was exciting, and I got to work on some seriously fun, I found them fun, projects.
Rob Collie (00:27:00):
Yeah, I would too.
Mary Fealty (00:27:01):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:27:02):
After 18 years of being there, I've got to ask, not at the very end, but as you approached your 18th year there. As you're walking down the halls, I can just imagine this aura of ones and zeroes. People are getting out of your way in the hallway like, "Okay, here comes the data ..." Did people develop any nicknames for you?
Mary Fealty (00:27:27):
Did I have any-
Rob Collie (00:27:28):
Like Data God, or Spreadsheet Master?
Mary Fealty (00:27:31):
I don't recall a particular nickname. I can't think of one. I mean, I was certainly known for my Excel knowledge. That was a given. Anybody who wanted to know anything, if they asked me, they could be, an hour later, they might be able to leave my sphere, and I would stop talking about it.
Mary Fealty (00:27:48):
But the other thing that happened to me there, in that company, which was just, wow. I really did have such an enjoyable time. There was me, working away, doing my thing. New management came in, and decided to bring in other people, into the MI team, which was now me running the MI for the company. They brought in one chap who was my first experience of working with a highly, highly educated chap. It was a physics PhD guy who joined.
Rob Collie (00:28:19):
That'll do it.
Mary Fealty (00:28:19):
It was. It was just, "Wow, this is exciting." This was really, really new, new, new. Just to work alongside somebody who had that brain par. I had to show him how to write SQL. Now, writing SQL literally probably took me about two years, before I could have thought, "Right, I'm pretty comfortable with what I'm doing." It was books upon books upon books of reading, and reading, and going, "I'm never going to get this. I'm never going to get this." It really was, I found it really hard. I think within six weeks, that guy was ahead of me. I was like, "What?"
Rob Collie (00:29:05):
SQL speaks to certain types, doesn't it?
Mary Fealty (00:29:07):
Yes, and I would say, "How are you able to do that? How can you do that?" But at the same time, it was fascinating. It was really, really fascinating to be working alongside somebody who was just so clever. It was a beautiful person as well. A really, really nice guy. By the time I left, he was one of three PhDs. It was like, "Right, I think my time here is done." I had no more, "What can I do in comparison, in terms of produce?" That was my time to walk away, and that's what I did.
Rob Collie (00:29:45):
Where does your path cross with Power Pivot?
Mary Fealty (00:29:47):
Oh, so right. As soon as I got out on my own, I got myself my own Excel, and it had the Power Pivot version. Or was it that I had to go to 2010? That was probably it-
Rob Collie (00:29:59):
You had to go to 2010, yeah. That sounds right.
Mary Fealty (00:30:00):
That was probably it. As soon as I left, that was it. I knew about Power Pivot. I wanted Power Pivot into the organization at the time. Going, "We need to get this thing." "What is it?" "I don't know, but I know it's really good." I spoke to some people going, "Are you using Power Pivot?" They went, "Yeah." I was going, "Is it as good as they say?" They went, "Yeah, yeah." I went, "Right, right. What the hell is it?"
Mary Fealty (00:30:24):
It's funny, I can't really remember the specific details. But that was my beginning of starting to get engaged with Power Pivot. Because one of the things I did do, I was trying to look back and figure out when I did certain things. I think the first thing I developed professionally, in Power Pivot was, 2012 would have been the first delivery of a Power Pivot solution.
Rob Collie (00:30:50):
Awesome.
Mary Fealty (00:30:51):
That was having to, before that, I'm not the quickest learner.
Rob Collie (00:30:56):
Neither am I.
Mary Fealty (00:30:56):
I'm so not. I really do have to just keep pushing, and keep pushing, and go, "I know the penny will drop. I know it will drop," and it doesn't drop fast. But once it drops, it sticks. It was your book, without question, was my absolute. That was my bible. I read it over and over again. I read the same things, certain paragraphs. Not that there were too many paragraphs, thank-you. Over and over again. Just going, "Right, you're going to get it. You're going to get it," and I did. I did. I can actually do this commercially. I can make this work.
Rob Collie (00:31:30):
Yeah. 2012 is when the first edition was published.
Mary Fealty (00:31:34):
There you go. I did do a check, and I'm pretty sure it was ... Do you know what? I'm going off to check that again.
Rob Collie (00:31:39):
We like precision.
Mary Fealty (00:31:40):
I actually did, yeah. That's the thing. It's-
Rob Collie (00:31:43):
Let's not mess around. Let's know the date.
Mary Fealty (00:31:45):
I knew 2012 felt a bit too early. Sorry, I've got to now look. Not nearly quite as good as I did two seconds ago.
Rob Collie (00:31:53):
Oh really? What-
Mary Fealty (00:31:53):
It was 2014.
Rob Collie (00:31:54):
Oh.
Mary Fealty (00:31:54):
2014, so apologies.
Rob Collie (00:31:54):
Oh god.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:57):
Oh.
Rob Collie (00:31:57):
That still only puts you in the-
Thomas LaRock (00:31:58):
That's past the curve.
Rob Collie (00:31:59):
The first 0.01% of early adopters.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:03):
That's, yeah. That's not early adopters-
Rob Collie (00:32:06):
I mean, we-
Thomas LaRock (00:32:06):
She was way behind the curve.
Rob Collie (00:32:08):
Oh yeah, she lost a couple of zeros on her percentage-
Mary Fealty (00:32:11):
January.
Rob Collie (00:32:11):
Yeah.
Mary Fealty (00:32:12):
It was January.
Rob Collie (00:32:13):
Oh, January. Oh, well-
Mary Fealty (00:32:15):
January, that's important. That's important.
Rob Collie (00:32:19):
That is important, yeah. Yeah. I think that still absolutely qualifies you for OG status.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:21):
Oh, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:32:23):
Yeah, I mean that's, the words Power BI hadn't even happened yet, I don't think.
Mary Fealty (00:32:29):
No, gosh. No no no no no.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:31):
No.
Mary Fealty (00:32:31):
There was no Designer. There was no Power View at that stage, I don't believe.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:35):
At that time, Power BI was called Tableau, I believe.
Rob Collie (00:32:38):
Oh, no.
Mary Fealty (00:32:40):
Oh, I had already tried Tableau, way back before that. I liked it. I liked Tableau-
Rob Collie (00:32:45):
Yeah, Tableau was like the beta release of Power BI. It wasn't fully functional yet. They were just missing some features. Okay, so you went solo before Power Pivot. A lot of people go solo, for example, Imke, who we talked to-
Mary Fealty (00:33:07):
Yeah yeah yeah. Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:33:09):
Power Pivot and Power BI, that was her jumping off point. But you stepped out of the corporate world to go solo, armed only with traditional Excel. That's next level brave. How did you decide to do that? You mentioned that you were working with PhDs. It sounds like you had a little bit of imposter syndrome, or maybe you were just bored.
Mary Fealty (00:33:32):
Well yeah, right. There was a number of things. But 18 years with one place is a long time. I really had had this fantastic, really professionally, just a fantastic time. Working on so many different projects, and so many different things. Really, really, I suppose making a difference. That was a huge part of the buzz that I got from the actual work.
Mary Fealty (00:33:56):
Let's be realistic. When you've got three people now working alongside you, and you're their manager, and what they can produce is just, to you especially, when it's what you love, yet these guys, their game is just so high. Imposter syndrome became massive. It was like, "What value can I bring to the role?" I didn't feel like I could
Mary Fealty (00:34:19):
Then I thought, "Right, okay. If that's my reality," I needed to change my thought process, from this being a negative, to, "What could I do?" It was going, "Right, I think I'm going to have to leave." That was okay, because it was going, "Right, I have to leave. If I have to leave, how am I best to think about this in a positive fashion?"
Mary Fealty (00:34:37):
I had this little saying going on in my head, of just going, "If you always do what you've always done, you always get what you've always got." I was going, "Right." This was my little mantra to myself.
Rob Collie (00:34:49):
Did you write that for yourself? Or did you pick that up from somewhere?
Mary Fealty (00:34:52):
Of course I picked it up.
Rob Collie (00:34:53):
Come on, it's-
Mary Fealty (00:34:53):
Somebody said it, and I've just gone, "I love that."
Rob Collie (00:34:56):
Okay, but it sounds like the sort of thing that you could have come up with for yourself though.
Mary Fealty (00:35:02):
But it was. It was literally that. Of going, "Right, I've been here. I've done it. Now why not just step away, and just walk away, and see what happens? Because it can't be the same. At least life will be different."
Rob Collie (00:35:13):
We make GIFs for every guest.
Mary Fealty (00:35:15):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:35:16):
How would you feel about your GIF featuring those words? That mantra?
Mary Fealty (00:35:21):
If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got?
Rob Collie (00:35:24):
Yeah.
Mary Fealty (00:35:24):
If you can get all those words in.
Rob Collie (00:35:28):
Oh, we can. We will take our graphic design team, and we will, we have one person. They won't quit until the job is done. Unless it's after working hours. Then of course they will stop.
Mary Fealty (00:35:44):
But yeah, that was the mantra that I just held onto. I went, "Right, okay. I'm going to do this then. I'm going to do that," and I hadn't a plan. I juts thought, "Well, it will be different."
Rob Collie (00:35:53):
Okay, so you'd heard of Power Pivot. In those early days, you were like Ken Puls, with this really strong intuition that it was going to be amazing. But not really knowing what for.
Mary Fealty (00:36:05):
I hadn't a clue, yeah. I just knew that there was something really important about Power Pivot.
Rob Collie (00:36:12):
So in that first thing you delivered, in 2014, do you remember what it was?
Mary Fealty (00:36:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a suite of reports. It was a little bit dashboard-y, ish, in Excel. A huge amount of pivot tables, obviously. Because it was all driven through Power Pivot. Just a series of different reports, that allowed my customer at the time, well, the same customer, I still have him. Just his ability to look at his data in a summarized fashion, that he wouldn't have had any opportunity to do before.
Rob Collie (00:36:43):
Do you remember what about that solution was possible with Power Pivot, that wasn't with just regular Excel?
Mary Fealty (00:36:51):
Oh, everything. It was the DAX. It was the DAX that totally and utterly changed everything. Just to be able to go in, I was really good with pivot tables, I believe. I was really comfortable doing the different calculations, etc, to make it work. But compared to in your book, about the fact that you write a measure once, and that's it.
Rob Collie (00:37:14):
That portability.
Mary Fealty (00:37:16):
That portability. Just going, "I've got that now. That's nailed. I never need to ever think about that again. That's formatted. I don't need to ever have to format that again." Being able to write specifics. The amount of measures this bloke ended up with was ridiculous. He no more needed them, but I couldn't stop. It was like, "Oh, I've got an excuse to write a new measure, that's going to measure something else independently." It was the DAX that was the thing. I just loved it.
Mary Fealty (00:37:40):
I just remember working inside, in Power Pivot, and watching the calculation just return back what I wanted it to return back. Then being able to filter it, and watch it change based on what was filtered. Going, "Oh, I'm really enjoying this," so yeah.
Rob Collie (00:37:56):
I can feel it. I can feel it, just in your voice.
Thomas LaRock (00:37:58):
Rob, a question for you. Because in my thought, listening to all this, I'm thinking, pivot table is the original low code functionality. There could have been something low code before that. But I'm not that old, I guess. In my mind though, it's the idea that, "I can just click a check box, and change how the data's being represented. I don't have to know or write code. I just have to understand, when I check this box, what then gets represented." That's so much easier for almost every human on the planet, than to sit there and think, "I have to write some piece of code."
Thomas LaRock (00:38:37):
Even for the folks that deal just in Python, all that stuff you want to do, it's another line of code. It's something else, or it's a summation of all these different functions that you put together, so it's just a one line thing. But it's still code you have to do, and have experience with. But with Excel and Power Pivot, it's just so easy.
Rob Collie (00:38:55):
Yeah. The whole Excel experience, and the Power BI experience, sits right on that border between no code, low code, and, "Okay, now we're doing real code." It's right there at that crossroads. Even the traditional pivot tables, they're like the end of a whole powertrain, to use an automobile metaphor. VLOOKUP is the transmission, and formulas are, let's call them low code, or well disguised code. Or, I don't know, whatever you want to ... But like you were talking about, with Python. Even if you want to change a filter, you've got to go change your code, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:39:29):
You've got to go change your code.
Rob Collie (00:39:30):
You've got to go change your code. Oh, you want to change your group by? What entities are you summarizing? Oh man, you've really got to go change your code. Nope, not in ... This is where, Jeffery Wang on a podcast, I was listening to him. He made this really strong distinction, between Power BI, and all the other BI tools. Which is, Power BI is a model-centric tool. Whereas all the other tools are report-centric.
Rob Collie (00:39:53):
The amount of code or whatever, the amount of work you have to put in to build a BI solution in these other tools, is linearly proportional to the number of reports you've got. Each report requires a significant amount of labor, because you've got to go build a very particular view for that very, blah blah blah. Whereas once you have the model, the reports are, you're going to spend more time formatting the reports than laying them out.
Rob Collie (00:40:19):
You've got time, because the bones of the report are done at the flick of a wrist. Now you have the time to get in there, and really obsess about, "Oh, look at the thing I can do with the bookmarks." That kind of stuff. It's a big difference, isn't it? I loved your answer. What was possible with Power Pivot in that first solution, versus regular Excel. You're just like, "Everything."
Mary Fealty (00:40:39):
I suppose it was also something new. It was like, "Oh, this is exciting. I like it. It's worth it," and I know it is. It is what I wanted it to be. I remember, say under these people, going, "Have you got Power Pivot?", and he says, "Yeah, yeah." Then going, "It really is this good." I understood their answer then, even though I didn't know what it was. It was like, "Yeah, it really is that good."
Rob Collie (00:41:02):
It turned out to be as advertised.
Mary Fealty (00:41:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:05):
Fast forwarding a little bit, I'm assuming that, maybe this assumption is invalid, that you've basically switched to Power BI, from Power Pivot?
Mary Fealty (00:41:12):
Oh, yeah yeah yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:13):
How did your customers, how did your clients react to that switch?
Mary Fealty (00:41:17):
It was much easier to get new customers. Much easier.
Rob Collie (00:41:19):
Okay. I'm going to just naively ask you, why? Why was it easier to get new customers?
Mary Fealty (00:41:25):
Why? Because it wasn't Excel.
Rob Collie (00:41:27):
Yes.
Mary Fealty (00:41:31):
Excel, as complex as ... Not really complex. Not in an M-code kind of complex. The complexities within it, all the various tools that you were using, the end result is still in Excel. From a consumer's perspective, it devalued it.
Rob Collie (00:41:48):
Yeah, completely.
Mary Fealty (00:41:48):
Because it was Excel.
Rob Collie (00:41:51):
So much of our work, my first job outside of Microsoft, which was really just my first client, is the way I've come to think of them. Where I was nominally CTO. So much of what we did was hide that it was Excel.
Mary Fealty (00:42:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:42:04):
We went so far as to have a custom written version of the page, that suppressed we used Excel services, because we delivered over the web to subscribers. We were very sophisticated. But then we went through, and turned off all of the SharePoint chrome, in SharePoint, because we had to use SharePoint. We turned off everything that made it look like SharePoint, which means all of these extra noisy buttons and menus, and blah blah blah.
Rob Collie (00:42:28):
Even then, the web part for Excel services brought so much Excel baggage with it. So many commands, and the menu, and all these things. So we had to turn that off. But then, we needed some of those buttons. The reload button, which was really the, "Reset filters." We needed that button back. You could only get rid of the whole toolbar. We had to sniff the wire, and find out what commands were being sent by the client, back to the server, to get the reset, and introduce our own button.
Rob Collie (00:43:01):
Then of course, so many of the blog posts on my website back in that time, were about all these tricks you could do to make Excel itself not look like Excel. The obvious ones were always, turn off the headers, and turn off the grid lines.
Mary Fealty (00:43:12):
Yeah yeah yeah, did all of that.
Rob Collie (00:43:14):
You're not even in the game if you don't do that. When you spend so much of your time thinking about just hiding that it was Excel, which was not an option to you by the way, back then. Because running your own SharePoint server back then was something that you would wish on your enemies. It was hard to run those servers. That was a big part of our operation. You were having to send them files. You were having to send them spreadsheet files, right? That was your only way to give it to them. Yeah, totally devalued, right?
Mary Fealty (00:43:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:43:42):
"Why would we pay so much for Excel?" You just could never get around that.
Mary Fealty (00:43:45):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:43:46):
Do your customers use an instance of Power BI, that you administer? Or are they using their own tenants?
Mary Fealty (00:43:54):
No, I'm now at the position where I host my own embedded service, that they access it through my embedded area. Whether they have Power ... Which they don't. Very few of them would do. They just simply log onto mine. It's so much nicer. You think about what Power BI was like at the very beginning, and think of what it's like now. It's unbelievable, the change. You think, "Thank goodness for me." Anyway, "Thank goodness I don't have to learn it now." I learned it in that drip feed, where it just was simple changes, you don't really notice are happening. You can absorb them.
Mary Fealty (00:44:34):
It's almost now, if you go to the Power BI service, it's almost too noisy, I find, for my customers. Because they just need it to access a report, and therefore have invested into the embedded platform. It's worked out so nicely. It's just a nice, clean, simple way for them to get to their reports.
Rob Collie (00:44:53):
Okay, so let me get really clear here. We've used the word embedded a couple of times.
Mary Fealty (00:44:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:44:58):
I'm wondering if we're using the lower case E embedded, or capital E Embedded?
Thomas LaRock (00:45:03):
What's the difference? What do you mean?
Rob Collie (00:45:05):
All right, so when your customers log in, do they see the Power BI portal? No? Okay. Your website has done some custom work. You've done some custom work on your website, so that you suppress all of this noise, and all they see are their reports. You're actually using the Power BI embedded capability. The real embedding capability.
Mary Fealty (00:45:29):
Correct, yeah. There's the premium, which I'm not using, obviously. I'm not-
Rob Collie (00:45:34):
Once you have a certain number of clients, it would actually be pretty economical-
Mary Fealty (00:45:37):
Perhaps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, I don't need the complexity. I really don't. So I use, there's the Azure embedded, and I use it.
Rob Collie (00:45:47):
Awesome. Now did you do all of that embedding work on your website yourself?
Mary Fealty (00:45:50):
Right. My advice to anybody who might think about using this methodology, do not attempt to do it yourself, okay? If you would like to waste 18 months of your life, constantly trying to figure out how this works, and constantly failing, and constantly never really making it past step one, go for it.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:12):
Sign me up.
Mary Fealty (00:46:14):
Otherwise, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:46:14):
Yeah, "Sounds great."
Mary Fealty (00:46:16):
My advice to anybody who wants to go down this route is, get somebody, a developer to do it for you. Have them return back to you, a fully functioning, unbelievably gorgeous product, in less than a week. Compared to the 18 months you have wasted, trying to figure it out. Because you're thinking, "I'll learn how to do this. I learn how to do things. I can do this." No.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:41):
If I understand it, what you're saying is, if somebody wants to do this, they should seek professional help?
Mary Fealty (00:46:46):
Very much so. Get a developer.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:50):
Seek professional help, yeah.
Mary Fealty (00:46:52):
If they do it my way, you should probably seek professional help. Because they know what they're doing. It's all web, and they're phenomenal, so yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:00):
Yeah, I was getting pretty excited though. We were talking about wasting 18 months of my life. I was really thinking, "Maybe, I bet I could stretch that to 24 months, easy."
Thomas LaRock (00:47:06):
You know, it's not often we get a chance to waste 18 months of our lifetime, just doing nothing, sitting around. Those opportunities don't just come up.
Rob Collie (00:47:17):
We've also built ourselves a couple of Power BI embedded portals. We have one for our experimental product, Cover Hawk. Which is currently only being used by American high school football coaches, to visualize football data. That is a 100% Power BI embedded service. Again, guess what? The people who built that at our company are web developers, who know what they're doing.
Rob Collie (00:47:43):
We run into a big, you probably even ran into this same situation, where there's this timeout. Where suddenly, an hour later, or 30 minutes later, all of your visuals turn into Xs. You're like, "Oh, well that's no good. Oh, we've got to renew that token? Okay." Right?
Thomas LaRock (00:47:59):
Oh, wow.
Rob Collie (00:48:01):
It's like, "Until you reach the point where your visuals are all turning into Xs, you haven't even gotten real yet."
Mary Fealty (00:48:07):
Right, right.
Thomas LaRock (00:48:08):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:48:10):
It's the classic Microsoft, "We give you the parts to the Porsche," you know? "Now go assemble your Porsche. It's a kit." It's pretty complicated, I agree. But for people who know what they're doing, it's just a day's work.
Mary Fealty (00:48:23):
It's nice to just go right, "I never have to think about that again," or never have to try. But yeah, to me that works out so, so nicely. So nicely. It's a much nicer experience, and it's my brand as well.
Rob Collie (00:48:36):
Yeah, I agree. I'm actually, I want to say this the right way, that doesn't sound like backhanded praise. I am really, really, really impressed, that you identified that possibility, and followed up on it, and got it done. That's a high bar. I'm impressed. I respect that immensely. Because the quality of the experience, the quality of the user experience, is everything. Data people very often forget this. You did not, and you went to pretty great lengths.
Rob Collie (00:49:08):
I think a lot of people, even if they realized that this was possible, and the experience would be so much better, all you have to do is just start reading a little bit about it, and become super intimidated. I know that you hired it out, but at the same time, that intimidation can absolutely, I think, scare you off of even attempting it. Whether you're going to do it yourself, or otherwise. You had to persevere in that headwind.
Mary Fealty (00:49:34):
It just, it made sense. It just made sense to me. I wanted to try it, to be honest. I never know for sure how anything's going to pan out. But I just knew I wanted it. Because here's the thing about Azure, which I love. That you can experiment like hell. If it doesn't work, you can just go, "Okay. Kill it. Okay, I might have invested a lot of time, but it was my spare time. I could do that."
Rob Collie (00:49:55):
Yeah, why not?
Mary Fealty (00:49:57):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:57):
I see that in you so clearly, and I love that. We're not going to succeed in life by avoiding failure. That's not the move. That's not the operating system that gets us where we need to go. You've got to lean into the good possibilities. What are the best possible outcomes? Yeah, and there's failure along the way, getting to those things. Sometimes you never get there, sadly, right? But then, you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and you go for that other outcome. I get multiple tries at this, you know?
Mary Fealty (00:50:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:50:31):
I can see that you're wired similarly to me in that regard. Like, "Yeah, why not?"
Mary Fealty (00:50:36):
And it worked out so well. So much better than I even hoped for.
Rob Collie (00:50:40):
Where did you learn that spirit? Do you know where that came from? Just to give you an idea, we just had a podcast with my grandfather, of all people. I'm pretty sure that I got my spirit of, "Why not?", from my grandfathers. Both of them. Maybe a little bit from my mom. Definitely not from my dad. My dad's an avoid failure operating system guy.
Mary Fealty (00:51:02):
Right, okay. Okay.
Rob Collie (00:51:06):
Just an alternating generation thing. Me and his dad are on the same page, and there's this guy in the middle that's like, "Nah."
Mary Fealty (00:51:15):
Okay, so if I was to say, "Where did I get it from?", I would say, I would be quite certain that it would be from my mom. I never knew my grandparents. All four of them were no longer around when I came along. But my mom was a really awesome woman. In my mind anyway. Obviously everybody's mom is, or parents are. But I just thought my mom was especially awesome.
Mary Fealty (00:51:37):
She was just an amazing role model. She didn't get married until she was 39. Her and my dad, they both were very late people getting married. Kids came along in their 40s, and three of them came along. There was a big age gap, which was different, but she came from a different time. She lived through the war, as an adult. They both did, but she was a nurse. She experienced the whole ...
Mary Fealty (00:52:04):
When I even think about what she went through during the war, it was phenomenal. I'm sure my dad did as well, but we didn't talk about it. But she went through all these amazing experiences. Horrendous experiences, awful ones. That was just typical of her life. Her life was very rich. Not with money, but just a very rich life. I think she just was a very determined individual, and very foreword looking. Very positive. I think that a lot of her strengths, I got some of them.
Rob Collie (00:52:35):
There's an interesting parallel here, I think. Which is, because your parents were so late in life having children, and my grandparents were early in life having children. Then my parents were super early in life having children. What we're finding here, is that your parents and my grandparents were basically the same generation.
Mary Fealty (00:52:53):
Yeah, got it.
Rob Collie (00:52:55):
There's something about the generation in between. The Boomers I guess, right? That by comparison are so safety seeking. The sense of possibility that my grandfathers brought to the table, there's extra dimensions. They're just like, "Look, the world is wide open. Everything is made out of plastic. You can bend it, twist it. It's all going to bend to your will if you try." I don't see as much of that in their kids. I was just lucky, right? I just got a lot of exposure to these people, you know?
Mary Fealty (00:53:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
Rob Collie (00:53:30):
It's pretty formative. It might be ultimately similar forces.
Mary Fealty (00:53:34):
Perhaps, yeah. Because I do think it was a lot to do with just how the world was, and how they had to make it work. It was really tough experiences way back, and that had to be overcome. All of that, "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger," is a truism if ever there was one.
Rob Collie (00:53:52):
There's a non-fiction book, which I haven't read, because that's what I do. I don't read non-fiction.
Mary Fealty (00:53:55):
Do you buy them?
Rob Collie (00:53:56):
I buy them sometimes. But it turns out, just putting them on the shelf, they don't just leak into you. It's weird.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:01):
I have so many on my Kindle, all these unread books. I buy books constantly, and they just ...
Mary Fealty (00:54:07):
Oh, it's wicked.
Rob Collie (00:54:08):
Yeah, your Kindle is now physically heavier, with all the information in it. You're just completely unimproved by it. It's so weird, isn't it? I love buying books for other people. It's like, "Oh, great. Now they can go do the work."
Thomas LaRock (00:54:21):
"Report back to me."
Rob Collie (00:54:23):
There's a book called The Fourth Turning, and it lays out this theory of generational cycles. There's a joke that goes with this. It isn't part of the book, but it might as well summarize the whole thing. Which is, "What makes strong people? Hard times make strong people. Strong people make good times. Good times make not strong people. Not strong people make hard times." That's essentially the cycle that they lay out in this book.
Rob Collie (00:54:56):
Now of course, it's become this doom and gloom, apocalyptic thing. There's some very unpopular personalities in American political culture, who have really seized on this. But it's hard to argue with it. We're coming to that crescendo again, and it's basically every fourth generation. But in your case we skipped one, right?
Mary Fealty (00:55:18):
We definitely did. We definitely did, yeah. No, my mom was born in 1920.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:24):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:55:24):
So in your family, we'd call it the third turning. We wouldn't call it the fourth. There's one less turning.
Mary Fealty (00:55:31):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:31):
I've never really asked anyone else on this show that particular question, because there's something about the way you look at things, that just really jumped out at me. Again, that, "Why not?", thing, right? I'm like, "Oh, here we go. Kindred spirit. Where does this come from?" Turns out, same sort of place it came from for me.
Mary Fealty (00:55:52):
Do you find, do you have plans? Have you got a plan ahead, of whenever you're going by, doing something? Mine's plan-less. It's just go. It's just go.
Rob Collie (00:55:59):
Yeah, sort of caricature this, in the way that my grandfather and my father both approached home improvement projects. My dad helped me hang a cabinet on a wall one time. The way I could describe it, he was like, "Okay. We need to do it like this." He's like, "What do you think is ... Oh no, that's not going to work, because of this and that." He's in this paralysis for 45 minutes, just trying to plan this out. We end up with this over-engineered solution, that if a nuke hit half a mile away, the whole house would be gone, but those cabinets would somehow still be suspended in space.
Rob Collie (00:56:40):
The basketball goal that we had put in, in our driveway, had a cubic meter of concrete poured by a truck as the base. Then he also had the metal pole filled with concrete, to make it even more durable. But, this is really important now folks, he also put a layer of sand in the pole, that straddled the boundary of the ground. Because if someone was ever going to come along with a welding torch, and want to cut this pole out, they wouldn't be able to pull that off if there was concrete there. Holy cow, right?
Rob Collie (00:57:13):
Whereas my grandfather, I was putting in a closet for my mom. He and I were at my mom's house. We were laying down the plates, the two by fours that were going to form the base of the wall. It was going to straddle the carpet. It was going to go from tile to carpet, because that's where we were putting this.
Rob Collie (00:57:30):
I'm like, "So we're going to rip this carpet up, right?" He was like, "Nah." We just start driving these nails straight through the two by fours, through the carpet, and into the concrete slab. The way he gets a project started, he just goes in and starts demoing.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:46):
That's awesome.
Rob Collie (00:57:47):
I'm definitely more like my grandfather than my father.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:50):
That's a time saver right there. "We're going to pull up this carpet." "Nah."
Rob Collie (00:57:54):
Well, there's also a motivational component to it. It's like Cortez burning the ships in the harbor.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:01):
Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:01):
Telling everybody, "Look, we're not going back unless we succeed well enough here, that we'll have the resources to build more ships." That's a gangster move there, right? That was something else. Once you start knocking out a wall, you're committed. So yeah, I think that's also, Mary, we're twins.
Mary Fealty (00:58:28):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:58:28):
It's important, it turns out every now and then, you get involved in a project that's more than you can handle, right? This company is an example of that. I got committed. I got out into the deep water. Fortunately, there were other people with me at that time that knew how to build that ship. You almost have to have a little bit of naivety about how hard something's going to be, in order to attempt it. If I'd really known how hard it was going to be to build this company, if I could have had perfect knowledge of how hard it was going to be, maybe I wouldn't have done it.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:56):
Yeah, you would have done it.
Mary Fealty (00:58:58):
Yeah, you would have still done it. But you don't need that much foresight. It's part of the fun, isn't it, of it?
Rob Collie (00:59:04):
It is. But there are people listening to this right now, who are just absolutely horrified. Their hands are getting clammy, listening to the way that we talk about things. Like, "No, you have to know what you're doing."
Mary Fealty (00:59:14):
And where you're going.
Rob Collie (00:59:15):
There's another personality type that is out there, and it's common. We should be aware of its existence. It's foreign, but it's valuable.
Mary Fealty (00:59:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:59:24):
Those people tend to be really, really, really useful for doing things that people like you and I are not capable of doing. It does take all kinds. Especially when you decide to go and do something crazy, like scale the company, instead of being one person. Which, I guess I could have stayed there, right? Who knows? It doesn't sound like you have any ambitions of scaling.
Mary Fealty (00:59:47):
Really and truly, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:48):
You're in that Letterkenny zone.
Mary Fealty (00:59:50):
Yeah, I'm in my sweet spot. Yeah, absolutely. I think I maybe had grand designs in my head, possibly. But never for a large company. Just certain things. But over time I've gone, "No, this really suits me."
Rob Collie (01:00:06):
Well, having a custom branded Power BI embedded portal built, that's pretty, once you've done it, now you know that it wasn't as hard as it seemed. But not many people have had that done for them. Not many people have done it, and still, not many people have hired it out either. It's very uncommon. Not a lot of one person shops out there, with Power BI embedded going on.
Mary Fealty (01:00:30):
Perhaps, but it's definitely worth investigating, and pursuing.
Rob Collie (01:00:35):
Oh, yeah. There's no way, this Cover Hawk thing for high school coaches and players, no way can we put the full Power BI portal in front of these people. No way, right?
Mary Fealty (01:00:47):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:00:48):
They would reject it, and rightfully so, right? There's no judgment here. They should reject it. They need an appliance, you know?
Thomas LaRock (01:00:55):
Right.
Mary Fealty (01:00:55):
Just need something that does it, and does what they need it to do, and nothing else. Everything else is just distraction.
Rob Collie (01:01:02):
Yeah, I completely agree. Okay, so here's the new experimental segment, okay?
Mary Fealty (01:01:08):
Okay.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:08):
Okay.
Rob Collie (01:01:08):
All right. Mary, this is perfect. The person with the spirit of, "Why not?" You're here for this. Okay, the next two words are going to surprise you. Quentin Tarantino has a theory, that you can only like The Beatles or Elvis. Maybe you don't like either of them, but you can not like both. No one likes both. This is even originally in the Pulp Fiction movie, but they cut the scene where she's asking John Travolta which one he is. But later on she says, "An Elvis man will love it, this restaurant," so there's a little vestige of it still in the movie.
Rob Collie (01:01:44):
Okay, we've got five questions for you like this. You are allowed to pass on one of them. Here we go. We're going to steal Quentin Tarantino's question, Elvis or Beatles?
Mary Fealty (01:01:55):
I'm going to go Beatles.
Rob Collie (01:01:56):
Beatles.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:57):
But the thing is, she could say both.
Mary Fealty (01:01:58):
Oh, I know. So hard.
Rob Collie (01:02:02):
You want to tell Tarantino that he's wrong?
Thomas LaRock (01:02:03):
I will. I'll tell him he's wrong.
Rob Collie (01:02:05):
Yeah? I bet, yeah, that would actually be fun, wouldn't it?
Thomas LaRock (01:02:09):
He is wrong.
Rob Collie (01:02:09):
I'd love to argue with him about anything. That would be fun. It doesn't matter, pick something. I'll take the opposite side just for the heck of it. All right, so Beatles over Elvis?
Mary Fealty (01:02:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:02:20):
Okay. Any color commentary to go with that?
Mary Fealty (01:02:22):
Right, so here's the deal. I would have, way back, probably have much more easily gone Elvis. But I've really gained a huge appreciation for The Beatles over time. Their music just is like, "Wow." Maybe it's nostalgia, I don't know. But I just get a real buzz out of hearing The Beatles.
Rob Collie (01:02:40):
There's a spiritual depth to some of, not all of the Beatles, right? Octopus' Garden isn't what we're talking about. There's actually, by the way, a subgenre of this, which is Lennon vs McCartney, which gets really interesting. I end up Lennon.
Mary Fealty (01:02:59):
Yeah, I would probably be Lennon.
Rob Collie (01:03:01):
In this game. Again, the spiritual depth. McCartney was much better at the pop stuff. The depth came from Lennon. Apparently there's a branch to this question. Are you also on team Lennon, Mary?
Mary Fealty (01:03:13):
Yes, I am.
Rob Collie (01:03:14):
Okay.
Mary Fealty (01:03:14):
I am, funny enough. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:03:15):
Okay. All right, so that's question one. Question two, creamy peanut butter, or crunchy peanut butter?
Mary Fealty (01:03:21):
Oh, crunchy.
Rob Collie (01:03:22):
Crunchy, okay. Look at that confidence. That's not a both. I'm a creamy peanut butter guy myself. My wife is team crunchy. All right, Lord of the Rings, or Game of Thrones?
Thomas LaRock (01:03:33):
Neither.
Mary Fealty (01:03:34):
Thank-you for that. Here, do you want to know something interesting?
Rob Collie (01:03:37):
Sure. Yeah, that's what these questions are about, really.
Mary Fealty (01:03:39):
Okay. I was in Game of Thrones.
Rob Collie (01:03:41):
What? Okay, no one's ever going to do as well on this question as you.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:53):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:03:55):
All right, go on.
Mary Fealty (01:03:57):
This is one of the things that I did when I first left, started up on my own. You know what it's like when you're starting up. You're not exactly busy all of the time. I signed up to become an extra. I thought, "I'll do that. That sounds like fun." It was the second gig I got, was being an extra on Game of Thrones. It was season five.
Rob Collie (01:04:20):
All right, I'm looking this up. Season five.
Mary Fealty (01:04:22):
It was, "Winter's coming, winter came." That season, which I thought was super cool. Even though I didn't really watch it. I spent three weeks as a wildling.
Rob Collie (01:04:31):
Three weeks as a wilding?
Mary Fealty (01:04:33):
On the set of Game of Thrones.
Thomas LaRock (01:04:34):
Oh my god.
Rob Collie (01:04:37):
Oh my god, this is the most amazing thing. Do you have screenshots? Come on.
Mary Fealty (01:04:40):
I do, but I have to find them.
Rob Collie (01:04:42):
All right, well send them over. From the perspective of the traditional BI people, you were a wildling. Right? They were trying to keep your Power BI kind at bay, and they built this gigantic wall, and we just went around it.
Mary Fealty (01:05:01):
No, it was amazing. It was absolutely amazing.
Rob Collie (01:05:04):
Wow, that is so cool. You were doing that off and on for three weeks?
Mary Fealty (01:05:09):
Every Monday to Friday, for three weeks. It was a three week gig. I mean, there was never, ever a time I could have done it since. But I was able to do it then, of going, "Stuff it, I'm doing that."
Rob Collie (01:05:19):
You still don't have a preference in Game of Thrones versus Lord of the Rings?
Mary Fealty (01:05:24):
No, I don't like either.
Rob Collie (01:05:25):
You don't like either? Tom, you don't like either of them?
Thomas LaRock (01:05:28):
I don't.
Rob Collie (01:05:28):
I was feeling such commonality, and now it's all evaporated.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:32):
I've watched the Lord of the Rings, the recent trilogy, and eh. But I-
Rob Collie (01:05:38):
Oh, no. The Hobbit trilogy was terrible.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:40):
Okay, so I will just say that I have never watched one episode of Game of Thrones, a complete episode at all. I think history will show that I was correct.
Rob Collie (01:05:50):
No, you were wrong. For a while there, it was the best thing I have seen on any screen ever. Now, it doesn't mean that it held up at the end. It did come apart very poorly. But for a while there, there was nothing better on any screen, that I'd ever seen. It was something else. Now of course, all these amazing arcs that were being developed, were completely wasted. It was just the worst. It was just-
Thomas LaRock (01:06:15):
There you go.
Rob Collie (01:06:17):
These people should never work again, is my opinion. But season five was very strong.
Mary Fealty (01:06:23):
Yeah?
Thomas LaRock (01:06:23):
I'm good.
Rob Collie (01:06:24):
The Two Towers is actually one of the best movies ever made, in my opinion. It's not just fan service. There's something really, really powerful going on there, in a Lennon sense. It's not a McCartney movie, this is a Lennon movie. There are moments where I actually have tears well up in my eyes while watching The Two Towers. That doesn't happen in Fellowship of the Ring, or Return of the King. But The Two Towers is epic.
Rob Collie (01:06:46):
All right, so we've lost respect for our guest, and our co-host.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:50):
I'm sorry, you've lost respect for me? That would imply you had respect for me.
Rob Collie (01:06:53):
All right, all right. We're going to give you all a chance here. Star Trek or Star Wars?
Mary Fealty (01:06:58):
Oh.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:58):
Could you narrow down which Star Trek you're talking about?
Rob Collie (01:07:01):
It doesn't matter.
Mary Fealty (01:07:02):
No, no, totally. Easy, easy, easy. All the slate, Star Trek.
Rob Collie (01:07:05):
Okay. The final question, Apple or Android?
Mary Fealty (01:07:08):
Oh, Android.
Rob Collie (01:07:10):
Android, and why?
Mary Fealty (01:07:11):
I liked Apple, I did like Apple. But-
Rob Collie (01:07:14):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), when did they lose you?
Mary Fealty (01:07:15):
I don't know. Just, when their phones and devices lost their power too fast, in my opinion.
Rob Collie (01:07:24):
The battery.
Mary Fealty (01:07:24):
Yeah. I just thought that was not a good consumer choice on their part. That's the real reason. I just didn't, and I thought, "Nope."
Rob Collie (01:07:32):
Yeah, Apple's this weird juxtaposition, of the most friendly and elegant human factors, considerations. There's something about their stuff that's really happy. While at the same time, so brutally upgrade driven, and capture, and make you pay a premium for things that you really shouldn't have to pay a premium for. It's hard to square the two, isn't it? You wish that those two parts of the company could become uncoupled.
Rob Collie (01:08:03):
I was reading the other day about Apple's fight with the EU, over USB-C chargers, versus their Lightning cable. Apple has now bought themselves two years in this process, this legal process. You know what they're going to do? What I was reading, was that they're just going to take all the ports off, and sell a proprietary magnetic wireless charger. You can't make them put a port in, but if they have a port, the EU can ...
Rob Collie (01:08:29):
The EU is becoming sort of the international version of California. With the United States, California forces corporations to make products at certain standards, that the rest of the 49 states don't. As a result, companies, it's more economical for them just to make everything to the California standard. Californians are a little bit more sensitive to things like this, it turns out.
Rob Collie (01:08:50):
The EU, we're rooting for you. Get the USB-C port. Make Apple play ball. We're all dying here. Do you know how many cables I have? I would love to charge my iPhone with USB-C, but apparently that's never going to happen, because they're going to take all of the ports off.
Mary Fealty (01:09:12):
It makes me think, when they were offered the choice of, "Press the button for the macro, or give them the macro," they chose, "Press the button."
Rob Collie (01:09:21):
Oh yeah, totally. That's the evil side of Apple. There is a legitimately human focused part to that company, and then there's also this, "No, we'll keep making these really expensive devices." It's just, ugh.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:34):
They're a hardware company, masquerading as a software company.
Rob Collie (01:09:40):
That's right.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:40):
Their operating system is a horrible, at times, user experience. For example, when the first phone came out, I couldn't attach a photo to an email. I had to go into my photos, and then say, "Send this as an email." I couldn't just say, "Hey, let me attach something." The idea of attaching something to an email was a foreign concept in the year 2008, to the folks in Cupertino? It's just this idea that, when it comes to the usability of their OS, they're in their own world.
Rob Collie (01:10:07):
That's a rare miss for a company like them.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:10):
It is, right? But they're in their own world. Because you know what? "The next phone, that we know you'll buy, you'll be able to attach something." Right? That's how they do it. "The next phone, guess what? You don't have a headphone in this phone anymore. You're going to have to go buy something different."
Rob Collie (01:10:26):
Yeah. "This is an adaptor that cost us a penny. But we'll sell it to you in a very slick package, for-"
Thomas LaRock (01:10:35):
It's that abuse of the customer that has led to an entity like the EU to say, "We're tired of you abusing us, and so if you want to sell into this market, you're going to have to do what we want." I'm totally onboard with it. I'm like, "That's great."
Rob Collie (01:10:47):
Agreed. Agreed. It's such a complicated universe these days, right? Apple is at the same time leading the charge against data tracking by advertisers, which, okay, somehow this must align with their world plans for domination and everything. But okay, I'm in. I loved having all of my apps recently prompt me, "Do you want to allow tracking across apps?" They just beg you, they say, "Oh, this allows us ..." They try to scare the hell out of you. "If you don't turn this on, you're going to suffer." I'm like, "No I'm not."
Thomas LaRock (01:11:17):
Yeah, right?
Rob Collie (01:11:20):
I'm like, "No tracking. No tracking. No tracking. No tracking," over and over again. Anyway, what was it? The enemy of the enemy of the enemy of the enemy of my friend is my friend? Or, I don't know.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:30):
Still your enemy.
Rob Collie (01:11:32):
Yeah, maybe. It's all enemies.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:35):
All the way down.
Rob Collie (01:11:37):
Yeah. Go EU, get them. Apple's going to win. They're just going to say they're going to take their ball and go home. "No ports for you." To, "The EU is why we can't have nice things."
Thomas LaRock (01:11:49):
Or is it ... She's not even in the EU, so-
Mary Fealty (01:11:56):
I know, exactly. We're out, remember? Although I don't know, I'm not sure. Are we out, in Northern Ireland? So many-
Rob Collie (01:11:58):
Yeah, I know. It's very strange.
Mary Fealty (01:12:01):
Maybe? Yeah, who knows? Who knows?
Thomas LaRock (01:12:02):
You could drive across town though, and you'd be back in the EU.
Mary Fealty (01:12:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:12:08):
All right, well anything else we should talk about, that we didn't get to?
Mary Fealty (01:12:11):
The only other thing of note, that I would say to go, how would I position myself, as somebody who's really, in my opinion, a ridiculously small player in this game? The fact that I am here tonight, in my case, is just bonkers in my head. But it's just, "How the hell is this even happening?" But here it is.
Rob Collie (01:12:28):
You mean this podcast?
Mary Fealty (01:12:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:30):
I think she does. Yeah, no.
Mary Fealty (01:12:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:12:32):
Oh, no. No one's ever belonged on this podcast more than you. This has been amazing.
Mary Fealty (01:12:38):
The other thing then, it's something I'm really, really proud of, within this whole Power BI world, is that I was the first female speaker at the London Power BI Group. That, to me, now I wasn't the first speaker, I was the 12th, I think, speaker. But I was the first female speaker at the London Power BI Group, which is one of the largest in the world. I've never spoken before, until then.
Rob Collie (01:13:01):
Wow, that's cool.
Mary Fealty (01:13:03):
I thought so. I thought so.
Rob Collie (01:13:05):
Mary, holy cow am I glad we did this. This has been amazing. Another, "Why not?", soul. Oh my gosh, basically raised by the same generation.
Mary Fealty (01:13:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:13:17):
Really cool. First and only Game of Thrones star. An analytics wildling.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:25):
Oh, that's awesome.
Rob Collie (01:13:29):
Yeah, that might have to be your GIF. Are you okay with that being-
Thomas LaRock (01:13:33):
Yeah, that has to be your GIF.
Mary Fealty (01:13:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:13:36):
Yeah. I don't know if the mantra is compatible with the wildling meme. We'll figure it out. But we're going to go wildling.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:45):
Get a picture of her logo that has the tree, and then the wildling coming around it.
Rob Collie (01:13:52):
Yeah.
Mary Fealty (01:13:52):
Very good, very good.
Rob Collie (01:13:53):
This is just one of those things. I was just looking through Twitter like, "Who would be interesting to talk to?" Wow, what a ringer you are. Such a great conversation. Thank-you so much.
Mary Fealty (01:14:02):
Oh, thank-you. Thank-you. Honestly, as I said at the beginning, when you asked, it would be an honor. It really, really has. It's been an incredible honor.
Rob Collie (01:14:11):
Well to whatever extent you experience imposter syndrome, let me tell you, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that to yourself. You're the real deal. No reason to put disclaimers on anything that you do. Oh my gosh. It's what it's all about. You are the world of data. The future of data is people like you. Everyone else that claims it's something else, it's like, "No, they've got an angle." They've got a reason to push that agenda. No, this is the real deal here. What a great conversation. I'm going to go bounce off the walls the rest of the day.
Announcer (01:14:45):
Thanks for listening to The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day
We've been quite busy not only here at Raw Data, but business at P3 Adaptive has been booming! So much so, that we've had to add our 4th Director of Client Services to the team to keep up with our ever increasing business. His name is Angel Abundez, and his journey has zigzagged him across both Rob and Tom's paths in the past (and maybe yours as well along the way) and has led him here today, sitting down and sharing his story with us!
References in this episode:
Far Side By Gary Larson - Free Range Chicken
Far Side By Gary Larson - Competition in Nature
Guru's Guide To SQL Server by Ken Henderson
Bill Hicks on Marketing(WARNING EXPLICIT CONTENT)
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Angel Abundez. I've known Angel for over a decade now, but just recently, four months ago, he joined the team here at P3, as our fourth director of client services. When Angel and I first crossed paths, he was that rare person who was already established in the traditional BI industry, who when was exposed to the radical thinking that was going on in something like power pivot, rather than feeling threatened by it or rejecting it, he actually leaned forward. He was very interested in what was going on there. That kind of open-mindedness, that sense of possibility, well, it's rare, it's valuable. And while he and I have been aware of each other for a very long time, he still stayed mostly in that traditional industry for the intervening time. But through those years, he, of course, retained that sense of wonder and that courage.
Rob Collie (00:00:52):
And so when the time was right, it made total sense for us to bring him on board as part of our team, both for the reasons that we were similar and also for the reasons that our experiences and our paths have been very different. Our president, Kaelin, was very deliberate when bringing on our fourth director that we wanted to go outside of our own echo chamber, that we wanted to cross pollinate. And so Angel was the move, was the one we wanted. It was really fortunate that he was available and we were very gratified that, that interest was mutual. Now, ever since he's joined, I've been waiting to ask him this question, how is it different? What's it like to step between these two worlds? But I've been giving him some time. I wanted to make sure that we got a good answer. So here we are. We're four months in. I can't wait any longer. I waited four months for it. I've now made you wait two minutes for it. That's enough. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:48):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:01:53):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your hosts, Rob Collie and your cohost Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:16):
I've never had to pronounce your last name out loud.
Angel Abundez (00:02:19):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:02:19):
It's always been in my head, which is a safe place. Without you saying it, I'm going to give it my best shot.
Angel Abundez (00:02:26):
Go for it.
Rob Collie (00:02:26):
All right. We'll see. Abundez.
Angel Abundez (00:02:29):
Yeah. Abundez.
Rob Collie (00:02:29):
How's that?
Angel Abundez (00:02:32):
Abundez. [crosstalk 00:02:32].
Rob Collie (00:02:33):
Abundez. All right. [crosstalk 00:02:33]. But by the way, in my head, it's always been Abundez, right? But that's really unconscious, right? But then I think about saying it out loud. I'm like, that's not it. [inaudible 00:02:50] the angle-sized first name, right? Your name isn't Angel either, right? Is Armhill or Anhill.
Angel Abundez (00:02:56):
It's been that way since 3rd grade.
Rob Collie (00:02:58):
There's no way you could get through life without having that pureed.
Angel Abundez (00:03:01):
I had the option, and the 3rd grade teacher asked, "Do you want to be called Anhill or do you want to be called Angel?" And I did not like how she pronounced the first one. And that was when I transitioned. Then I was like, all of a sudden I had a new name. It was like I had a new identity. I'm in the 3rd grade, brand new school too. So that was blossoming for me. I was like, "Oh, Angel. Cool."
Rob Collie (00:03:25):
I had been Bobby growing up as a kid. My whole family called me Bobby. The kids that I met on my street all called me Bobby. But then my mom registered me for school as Robert. I was Robert at school and Bobby at home. Luke knew me as Robert.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:42):
I was damn so confused.
Rob Collie (00:03:44):
And these worlds weren't far away from each other, right? Luke lived two streets over from the world where I was Bobby and he'd come visit and it would be really confusing.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:56):
Now he's Rob and I'm all messed up.
Angel Abundez (00:03:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:58):
But it's not quite the same, right?
Angel Abundez (00:04:02):
I think in a lot of ways it is. Yeah. You were one thing coming in and you're total different... Looks like, "Who's Robert?" All his friends [crosstalk 00:04:13] like, "Hey, did you meet Robert? He's so cool.", "Who's Robert?"
Thomas LaRock (00:04:16):
[crosstalk 00:04:16].
Rob Collie (00:04:19):
"That guy? Oh, and he is not cool."
Angel Abundez (00:04:23):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:04:24):
It's an early morning recording session for you. Not so much for us East Coasters, but we're still armed with coffee. Do you drink coffee?
Angel Abundez (00:04:31):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:04:32):
Okay. I love that look on your face, where you're like that doesn't translate to the audio podcasts, but, oh yeah, of course I do. "I savvy the beam," [inaudible 00:04:42] that look said.
Angel Abundez (00:04:43):
Oh, yeah. My father-in-law likes to say I keep Starbucks in business.
Rob Collie (00:04:47):
Yeah. We have a policy at our house now, which is, we're only allowed to go to Starbucks on weekends. It's like a governor on the motor. Otherwise things just get out of hand. It's home coffee on the weekdays.
Angel Abundez (00:05:04):
Yeah. I have this machine that grinds the beans and then brews the coffee immediately afterwards. Oh, it's so good. So when my brother-in-law comes over, sister-in-law, or whoever, they're like, "Oh, that's great coffee." I'm like, "Thank you, Cuisinart machine."
Rob Collie (00:05:19):
Yeah. We also now have one of those machines. It's like the much more expensive and more ecologically responsible Keurig. You don't have these plastic cartridges, but if you don't want the plastic cartridges, you've got to pay like five times as much for the machine. Those machines are amazing, aren't they? They remind me of the machines at Abbott Labs. The machines that Abbott Labs makes for blood testing, they're almost like the Lunar Lander in terms of like all the devices that are inside these pipettes and this conveyor belt, and then there's this and then that. It's crazy what's going on inside those blood testing machines. Angel do you know Tom?
Angel Abundez (00:05:57):
I do know Tom. We hadn't officially met until the business analytics conference, Tom, long time ago in Chicago.
Thomas LaRock (00:06:04):
Yep.
Angel Abundez (00:06:04):
And I was going to be a blogger who was going to blog out this interview with Tom. I had some questions and stuff. Never wrote the blog. I talked a good blogging game, but I never could achieve the same level of blogging as is obviously you Rob and like some of the others in the community, but...
Rob Collie (00:06:20):
Well, you had half of the journalism game down, right? You talked your way into the interview.
Angel Abundez (00:06:25):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:26):
And you're like, "Nah. I've had that life experience. I'm not going to share it. I'm just going to..."
Angel Abundez (00:06:32):
It's nerve wracking to write about someone else. You don't want to write anything bad, but...
Rob Collie (00:06:37):
You want to tell the truth. And after meeting Tom, you're in a really tough spot, right?
Angel Abundez (00:06:43):
Well, I second guess myself too, too much. That's the other problem. When you do that, you never get anything done. So I apologize, Tom. Never sent out that blog or whatever, but-
Thomas LaRock (00:06:54):
Yeah. Apology not accepted. I'm still waiting for it.
Rob Collie (00:06:58):
Yeah. I said, he's still [inaudible 00:06:58]. He's like, "I'd forgotten about this," but now you reopened that wound.
Thomas LaRock (00:07:02):
Yeah. I took the time. There was no payoff for me.
Angel Abundez (00:07:09):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:07:10):
Okay. So Angel, you and I crossed paths long time ago. When did we meet up for the first time?
Angel Abundez (00:07:16):
It was back in 2010 or 2011 in Tampa. Jose Chinchilla was hosting SQL Saturday. This is intelligence edition.
Rob Collie (00:07:26):
That's right. Yeah.
Angel Abundez (00:07:27):
He had the speaker dinner at this great burger place. I don't remember the name, but I happened to sit across from you. Your back was against some brick wall, I think.
Rob Collie (00:07:37):
Mafia style.
Angel Abundez (00:07:38):
Yeah. And mafia style. Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:07:40):
Yeah. And no one's going to sneak up and [crosstalk 00:07:42].
Angel Abundez (00:07:43):
And I think we just hit it off. I think we just talked about work and talked about your background in Excel. This was before I even knew about Power Pivot. I had no idea what Power Pivot was. And then went to your session and you had a great football demo thing. I just was so intrigued by the tool. And later on, you wrote the book and it was so funny. Your book just sounded like your voice coming out through the pages and I could still remember you talking about, "You want to keep your lookup tables at the top and your data tables at the bottom." And many years later in Microsoft MTCs, where I'm doing training on Power BI, I still use that same thing. You got to put your dimensions on the top and your fact tables on the bottom.
Rob Collie (00:08:30):
This is where I'm really remembered for, is yeah, you put these up high and put these down low and there you go. That's the Kali PhD.
Angel Abundez (00:08:39):
Well, it was brilliant. It was definitely brilliant. One of our guys said, he put on Twitter yesterday, "Where do you like to put your measures in Power BI? Do you like to put them in a measure table or do you like to put them in other tables?" And I said, "I think you put them where a user intuitively goes, because if they know where to go to perform a certain function, then they're that much more productive," and your tip is one of those things, I think. It's like, okay, if you do it this way, then that alleviates the questions about how should I do this and how should I do that?
Rob Collie (00:09:12):
We should back up really quick. You're one of our four directors here at P3. I want to establish what you're doing today and then we can dive into the origin story. So one of our currently four directors, that's a number that grows over time. And you're the only one of our directors that was an external hire. We hired you from the outside world, straight into the director job, whereas our other directors all came up originally through the principal consultant job here. And this ties together really neatly, I think, with the story of how we met and all that kind of stuff, because you were already a practicing card carrying member of the business intelligence industry before all of this. And most people who had been already into BI before being exposed to Power Pivot, especially Power Pivot, right? This Excel based version, most of the BI professionals circa 2010 or hell, even like 2015, most of them, their immune systems rejected this new stuff, at least initially.
Rob Collie (00:10:20):
And it's easy to understand why. It had all the trappings of, first of all, the Excel based thing, right? That's an immediate turnoff for the established BI crowd, right? The ivory tower crowd. Mm-mm (negative). No. No peons. Uh-uh (negative). No. There's no staircase on the ivory tower. No, it's not open to the public. But also just like, if you... the wrong way, it was very threatening. My experience with meeting established BI professionals in that era, the way it would go is, I would explain what I was about and what I was doing and then we would fight.
Rob Collie (00:10:56):
Once I got the story out, what I believed and what I think was happening, right? That was just laying the groundwork for the battle to come. And so, on the rare occasion that I crossed paths with someone, again, from that established BI world, that lit up and leaned forward and goes, "Really? Wow." That stands out. I mean a lot. And so, all these years later to have you become part of our team, this is just so gratifying. So cool. And I'm so happy that we had the opportunity to work together, and not just be members of the community that knew each other and liked each other. It's been a really cool arc, long story, right? Like a decade.
Angel Abundez (00:11:33):
Yeah. I think the other thing that drew me to your session was the fact that you said you didn't know SQL. And I was like, "How is someone doing BI?" Right? Because, Tom, I'm sure you would attest to this, that SQL was our lifeline. It was like how we got the data and everything. But you said you had developed these models and then what I saw what you built with Power Pivot I was like, "Holy smokes, man. I can't even do that that fast with SQL. I've got to think about it." So yeah, and I agree I feel very lucky that what you and our president, Kaelin, built over this period of time, it's just like the right time now to come in. And after so many years of having grinded and worked really hard and everything, it's like our organization has so many talented folks that are like where we were 10 years ago, right? Just sitting across from each other, batting ideas around, and these guys now, they have no idea what we had to put up with, right?
Rob Collie (00:12:30):
Oh, kids these days.
Angel Abundez (00:12:32):
Yeah. Exactly. But how they're flourishing now is pretty amazing.
Rob Collie (00:12:37):
Yeah. So Angel, how did you get involved in data in the first place? I'm pretty sure you weren't like a middle-school kid going, "Oh, I can't wait to get into SQL."
Angel Abundez (00:12:46):
No, it was by chance. When I took my first internship while I was in college, I helped the electrical engineers of this company review parts that they were putting on printed circuit boards. And as I reviewed them, there was a developer there who developed an application where I would go in and add the specifications of the part, I'd put in notes about the part, and once it made it into that database, that application, it was like official. It was the official database of all the parts that they would use on their printed circuit boards. And I was just fascinated by what he was building, and what I was contributing to, and seeing the growth of it, and all these electrical engineers were using it. And then I took that to my next job a little bit and started up an Access database of all things, right? Access, and tried to do the same thing, because I was again, working in printed circuit board design and then got out of that industry into industrial controls for a company that did wastewater controls and saw a lot of repetition of what they were doing, like the repetition of what the printed circuit board engineers were doing. And I was like, "Hey, we could do a database."
Angel Abundez (00:14:01):
So again, cracked open Access. And at that point I was trying to figure out how to input all their instrumentation and create PDFs of these specs that we'd have to submit to the different districts to approve all the instrumentation or whatever. So it was at that point that one of the project managers grabbed me and said, "Hey, you know SQL, right?" And I was like, "Yeah." And I'm like, "What do you need?" And he's like, "Well, we have this time sheet report and it keeps breaking. Can you come in and just try to fix it." I go, "Yeah. Sure." And that was my first foray into SQL server reporting services. And it didn't take me long to fix it. I think I might've fixed it in a day.
Angel Abundez (00:14:45):
They were like, "Oh. Wow, okay. We have some more reports. Why don't you put down what you're doing, come over, sit over here, and help us fix these reports?" And that's where just all bets were off. I was often to SQL server and SQL server reporting services, helping them with their forecasting, and that's also where I got really involved with their systems. We were trying to stand up project server and their finance backend at that time was dynamics, and trying to marry those two. I was like the glue for finance to like, "Hey, what's going on with these projects?" And I'd be like, "Here's what's going on?" And they're like, "Okay. Great. Thank you." So then they could recognize revenue and we'd go back and forth some months.
Angel Abundez (00:15:29):
And that was also actually where I found out that the world of finance was very gray. Up until that point, being an engineer, everything was black or white, everything was like, it works or it doesn't work, it fits or it doesn't fit. Darn it, I got to start all over again, right? With finance, oh no. It's like, "Oh, this looks wrong. I'll just do a journal entry. We'll just journal entry this and journal entry that." And I'm like, "Holy smokes dude. I think I need to go get a MBA or something because, is this legal?"
Rob Collie (00:16:01):
Yeah. Or get clean, right? Like go take a shower or something, right?
Angel Abundez (00:16:05):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:16:06):
But that's like half of the accounting subreddit on Reddit, is just like laughing about the things that they're being asked to do, like recategorize this as that and whatever, like the semi shady stuff. There was a moment there in that story where you're like, there's this moment, almost like sets you free in SQL and you're like, "Oh wow," right? It reminded me of this old Far Side cartoon and I think there's like a chicken laying on a beach somewhere with sunglasses on. And he's got his hands behind his back of his head, and he's holding Coke and he's talking to all the people on the beach and he goes, "And then they made me a free range chicken, and man, I never looked back."
Angel Abundez (00:16:48):
Exactly. I really got into it, man. I bought books. That was before I knew about the SQL server community. So that was my next big revelation, but got really deep into books. I actually bought Ken Henderson. I don't know if you guys know this author. He wrote something called the Guru's Guide to SQL Server. And just with chapter one, I was just like, "Oh." Then chapter two, "Oh." Things I never would have known just looking around on the internet. But yeah, I think the big connection I made there with reports that I think all of our people have made this connection intuitively is when you show the data and make it easy for other people and how they react, then initial reaction where they're like, "Oh, I want more." Or like, "Can you do this? Can you do that?" And it's like, it builds and builds and builds. It's addictive.
Rob Collie (00:17:46):
Tom has this phrase he likes to use, data janitor. In some sense, he halfway, proudly identifies as having come up as one of those while at the same time, no one went to school to do that. And this has never really fit for me. Even though the Excel's person's day to day existence is pre Power BI, is very labor-intensive. It is like working in the salt mines, right? The output of the typical Excel report is so much closer to the ultimate business value than the things that you're typically doing in SQL, at least in the early days. So your story about, yeah, we just had all this data about these circuit boards, right? And it was just like, it's just a mess, and how to keep it clean, and how to keep it in a good state, and then turn into some PDFs and all of that.
Rob Collie (00:18:34):
As you were telling that story, I'm going, "Oh, right. That's what Tom means by data janitor." It's those sorts of humble beginnings in the SQL world, whereas the humble beginnings for an Excel person is like putting together something that immediately is handed to like the CFO to use to make some sort of strategic decision, right? Again, the nature of the work itself has a similar texture.
Angel Abundez (00:18:57):
It does.
Rob Collie (00:18:58):
But at the same time, it wasn't just keeping data clean. The Excel people that are really close to the decisions, and at the same time are viewed about as favorably as your average DBA, right? They're just not valued even though they're critical in the same way that DBAs are critical and never really get any credit except when things go wrong. This is where Tom, our worlds really did intersect.
Angel Abundez (00:19:21):
So it's a term I actually saw a buck word to use once. You have to put it in a job description, like you're registering for a conference or something. He just put down data janitor. I'm like, "Oh, that's perfect. That really does explain a lot." Anyway, I remember I tweeted once the exact phrase, nobody goes to school to become a data janitor. And a few minutes later, Rob, just simply tweets back, and yet here we are. I'm like, yeah. And I got nothing. I got no response after that. I'm like, "Yeah. That's right. Here we are. Now what?"
Thomas LaRock (00:19:58):
I like how you said, "We only get the credit when something goes wrong." That's not really credit, that's actually... I consider it to be blame. But yes, [crosstalk 00:20:06]. But we all have that gateway, we all have that entry, but I wanted to comment earlier about how... When Angel was working and he's building something and then they saw the value that he could actually do something with this data that has value, it's that thing. I don't understand why we don't have money at the end of the month. And he's the guy that goes, "Well, let me add up the income versus the expenses." And it's like this, "Whoa, how did you do that?" And he hands that to somebody, and when you're the administrator of it, you're just the curator. You're the guy that works in the museum and makes sure everything is there for somebody else to use, and you're not really involved, and you don't get to open up anybody's eyes, except for that rare case when you recover their data that they've screwed up somehow, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:20:53):
So you're really can be removed from those moments of, "Oh, that revelation of, oh my God, this data," and what I can do with it now. As an administrator, you just don't get to see that, you don't get to work with it, and over time you just sit around like, "What am I doing here? I'm just a data janitor. I don't really have any value." But you do, you just don't understand what the value really is because there's no feedback loop for you, because you're manager. I may have had more than one manager look at me and go, "I don't even know what you do around here."
Rob Collie (00:21:20):
That's big difference for the Excel flunky, is that they get to see firsthand how their output is being used. And so, they start to develop this real wisdom about how the whole business works, and about where the bodies are buried, and where things are dumb, and where things are stupid. And yet still, at least nine times out of 10, no one listens to them. You're just trapped, watching everything go wrong that you know could be better and no one cares.
Angel Abundez (00:21:49):
Or you find yourself in this repeated pattern of you're producing the Excel files every month or every week, right? And it's just on, and on, and on. There is a lot of overlap, but I also think it's important for the DBAs and the ETL engineers, the people that do the backend stuff, they need to realize the value that they're contributing to. One of the places where I was really lucky to work and I was on this big team, there were so many people that performed each function. There was the DBA, there was the ETL engineer, there was a QA engineer. There was like 12 of us. And at the end of the day, all we wanted to do was add a new filter to a report. It was a Cognos report and we just needed to add a filter. So it was like all of this backend stuff that we had to do just to add that filter, right? And it seems like a little bit.
Angel Abundez (00:22:43):
I remember putting up a slide and showing our team, "We added this, but you guys don't understand how hard that filter took." But you need that. You like to call it Rob, you need that compass, right? You need to reel everybody in and go, "Well, that little filter now allows so-and-so to do so-and-so, or this team to do that, or we can do tons of new things." So I think that messaging is the responsibility of whoever's leading the team, right? Because I can remember not doing that and feeling very lost on another project, worked, I don't know, weeks, and we were tackling some very technical problems and challenges and everything. And I sat back and I go, "What are we doing? We're supposed to be writing new dashboards, but we're so entrenched in the versions of SQL server and column store index or no column store index and all these technical things inside..."
Angel Abundez (00:23:38):
I was like, "This is crazy," right? So then that's when I started getting into agile and realized if I laid out my features, what is it that we're trying to build this dashboard, or this report, or whatever, how do we get there? And once I did that, then I came back the next day and told everybody, "Look, we need to finish the testing you're doing, the development you're doing on that other piece or whatever because we got to get back to what we were here for." So it's a double-edged sword, I think, knowing the value and then getting so entrenched with the details that you forget what the value that you were working on was, right? Trying to pull yourself back to that.
Rob Collie (00:24:17):
Yeah. Working backwards from the desired result, whenever you can, proves to be just so much more effective than working forward from the architecture. Working from the top down is the way to build when you can pull it off. The BI industry was bottom up forever. It was plumbing then faucet. And if you can go faucet, then plumbing, you end up getting a much better result and you end up getting there much faster. But the old tools, pre Power BI, pre Power Pivot, pre DAX, pre Emo, that kind of stuff. The old tools were really only capable of supporting a waterfall bottom up plumbing then faucets, sort of philosophy. The world didn't choose to go plumbing first, just arbitrarily. It's because the software was built to drive them that way. The new tools support the other way and still industries are very slow to change. So how long have you now been with P3?
Angel Abundez (00:25:16):
It's four months.
Rob Collie (00:25:17):
I've been saving this question for four months. What's it like? Right? So I'm sure that to a certain extent in your previous job, you were already beginning to apply some differences, agile and all that kind of stuff. I can paint this dramatic picture, right? Of, oh, you've been working in the old world all this time and now you've come to try this new model and I want to know the difference, right? That's an overly dramatic picture because even the old world of BI has been changing, and I definitely get the impression that, again, because 11 years ago we were sitting across the table and you're going, "Interesting."
Rob Collie (00:25:55):
That means that you definitely weren't staying in the traditional group completely in any way, but still though, the question I've been saving to ask you, and we talk about, and of course record it, is what's it been like making this transition from, anyway, by degrees, a more traditional environment to our environment here at P3? And even if we weren't doing a podcast about this, I'd be basically beating your door down now and say, "Okay, let's talk. What's it been like?"
Angel Abundez (00:26:23):
The people are definitely different. The way we hire, the way we put our consultants through what we call the diabolical test, and the way we interview them, it's like, we're picking a certain breed of person, right? First of all. So one thing that really impressed me when I into this role, because when I got in, I immediately had six principal consultants reporting to me and got to know them, got to talk to each one of them. And then more importantly for me, I wanted them to crack open their work. And as I was looking at all their work, I was like, "Holy moly, this is really good stuff."
Angel Abundez (00:27:03):
And some of the ways that they were describing their projects, or their clients, or the process, or whatever it was that they were working on, just blew me away. They really not only understood it, but could spin it in ways that only professionals in Power BI could do. So I remember Ryan Bergstrom, our senior director, asked me, "Angel, I wonder what you would say. Working where you've worked, would you hire these people?" And I said, "Hell yeah. I love our team." And so that's, I think the first thing, because it starts with people, right?
Rob Collie (00:27:36):
Can I jump in just for a moment here?
Angel Abundez (00:27:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:27:38):
So knowing them now, the answer to that question is, "Oh my gosh, yes, we should have been willing to hire them," right? "In our previous environment." But they probably would have missed your radar.
Angel Abundez (00:27:48):
Totally.
Rob Collie (00:27:49):
And why is that? Why would they have missed your radar in the prior role?
Angel Abundez (00:27:54):
In prior roles, we placed a lot of importance on backend knowledge of databases, backend knowledge of ANSI SQL. We were looking for architects basically, architects or ETL engineers, because that was primarily the bread and butter of the consulting worlds that I came from. Whereas opposed to here, we do have some sense of data engineers, but they're not data engineers, they're analytics engineers. They're the kind of breed that wants to understand the data because they know how to make it do things, how to look a certain way, or how to play with it and create ideas. Our clients don't all come to us because they want reports, our clients come to us because they want ideas. They're interested in our opinion with what they've got. I would have probably dismissed a lot of the people that are on our team because they didn't have that backend experience.
Rob Collie (00:28:51):
Yeah. Our people don't identify. Some of them do, some of them have those bonafides for sure. But most of our consultants would never identify... again, to use the metaphor, they would never identify as plumbing experts, they're faucet people. And it turns out... And this is the really gratifying thing for me. You're looking at their work, you're looking at the architecture of the models that they're building and the DAX in there and all that and going, "Oh my gosh, look at this plumbing expertise, look at this," right? They didn't identify as that, but they can rocket in the service of making those faucets, right? And Bergstrom Ryan did tell me that story that you just told about hiring, right? He told me that some number of weeks ago and I just deemed.
Angel Abundez (00:29:39):
It's so cool.
Rob Collie (00:29:40):
Yeah.
Angel Abundez (00:29:41):
It makes my job as a director so much easier. I don't have to explain the value that they have to look for or create said demos. They're doing it on their own. Now, where the backend piece does help, obviously, as I've seen a lot of patterns, so trying to parallel those patterns to what they're trying to accomplish sometimes with their data has helped. And I still like to pick from my experiences back in the days, applying Kimball principles to data warehousing and stuff like that. I like to think about those things sometimes because those guys were the experts back when data warehousing was really taking off in the '90s and the 2000s.
Angel Abundez (00:30:22):
Nowadays, it's like, everybody just does it intuitively. They don't call it a fact table, they don't call it a dimension. Maybe they call it a data table and a lookup table or whatever. But they're applying these principles intuitively and it's amazing to me. I'm like, "It's got to evolve," right? I mean now, with so many things in the cloud and so many tools on top of not just Power BI, but things that are coming out with CIN apps and Databricks, it's getting a lot easier to do these backend things. And Tom, you were talking about this earlier about AutoML. There's going to come a time where machine learning is just going to be in everybody's back pocket and they can bring it to the forefront and then start adding value with that stuff.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:05):
I'm a strong advocate that we should let the machines do the tasks that they're best at and let humans do the tasks that they're best at. And right now, the way I see the AutoML stuff evolving, is that there's still quite a bit of human intervention necessary for the thought process. "Is this data valid? Is it free from bias? Did these results make sense? Things of that nature. That expertise has got to be around for another five years or more, right? I mean, that's a decent career path for anybody to head down to have that experience and what you were just saying, fact tables, just coming naturally. It makes me think of that first BAC where we met apparently.
Rob Collie (00:31:44):
There's no written record of you having met by the way-
Thomas LaRock (00:31:47):
But it was Dr. Lovett, right? Yeah, he gave that brilliant keynote. And one of the takeaways was there's a dearth of people in the world that can analyze data properly. And I would go further and say, not just analyze it, but organize it. So what you're talking about are natural skills for people now, is because people are getting used to what the shape of the data should look like if they want to be able to use it for something, which I don't think people had or was as common 10 years ago. I agree with you there, because I don't think a lot of people understood why there was a fact table, dementia table, stuff like... [inaudible 00:32:22], get it all. And nowadays, it's just natural. Like, I need this and I need a lookup table or a reference... And they're getting better at how they should be organizing their data. I think that's becoming a little more common. But as far as the machine learning stuff, the data science-y stuff, we're still going to need some humans to really fact check what the machines are spitting out.
Angel Abundez (00:32:42):
Yeah. I think it's come up more and more. Things like text analytics, I would have dismissed the whole text analytics and semantic analyzing maybe four or five years ago because I was still too busy trying to figure out how much money are you making and trying to figure out cost savings and optimizations. But today with these data lakes and these tons of ways that we can store the data, now people got data, now people want these new answers. And that's what I'm talking about more is like, to your point, it's going to take a human to try to figure out, well, how am I going to tell my bosses that the customers are giving us positive feedback," right? Quote, unquote, or negative feedback, or what products do they like, quote unquote, or don't like, quote unquote, right? And I'm like, "We have the tools now," and it's tools that we can spin up and spin down just when we need them.
Angel Abundez (00:33:37):
So it's a really interesting and fun time right now. But honestly, that's another part to the role that I came into, that I fully, was willing to accept, is that I'm not going to be the guy that's going to write the machine learning [income 00:33:51]. I'm not going to be the guy that's going to write the Python, but I want to help guide that process to these people that are eager, and fast, and smart to do. That's one of the big changes. Now, in my career, having come to P3 and being a director, is that I'm not going to do the development, I'm not going to write the code, but I want to see my people do it and absolutely get 100% of the credit for it. So being able to come to a place where I can let that part go has been a little bit hard, I'll admit.
Angel Abundez (00:34:22):
I still go a little bit crazy when I can't help a client battle a DAX problem or come up with some report. So I get to do a little bit, but it's just enough because I have eight now, but soon to be nine principal consultants on my team that I have to look out for them. I have to make sure each one of them is successful. And I can't do that if I'm busy crunching on some client problem or whatever. So it's going to be a growth process for me here. I fully recognize that. It's a little scary, but it's also fun. It's been fun.
Rob Collie (00:34:54):
Well, it's not just that we really like you, that we decided to try to bring you in, right? It was also a deliberate effort on our part to cross pollinate. We knew that what we've been doing for the past 5, 6, 7 years, we know that it's very effective, we know that it's working. We don't have any self doubt anymore about our business model and all that kind of stuff, right? But at the same time, there is a risk of being in your own echo chamber and missing some things. It's not that the things that you're doing are bad, it's just that you might be missing some other good stuff, right? And so, we'd reached the point where it made a lot of sense for us to crack that door open, right? And so, I've really valued and appreciated that as our relationships with clients mature and as technology evolves around us.
Rob Collie (00:35:40):
I mean Power BI itself, even though it's famous for having these monthly updates, where it's like all the pace of innovation, really Power BI isn't really changing that much. It's still doing the same things that it was always doing before. It's just like you get like these extra sprinkles on that Sunday. And some of those sprinkles are tasty, but it's still doing the same thing, whilst the ecosystem around it, that's the place where things are changing super fast. It's not Power BI itself, it's the adjacent technologies. And we're getting increasingly into those because there are at certain places where they bring tremendous value to the overall solution and the overall data culture, even, right? At our clients. And having that, cross-pollination, that exposure, even in these short four months that you've been with us, has already been a real asset to the team. So I'm really glad that we took that chance, but I'm even happier that you did. It is a big change. It's a bigger change for you than it has been for us, even though it has been a big change for us.
Angel Abundez (00:36:41):
I'm still trying to figure out what the next two years is going to look like, but I'm excited. I mean the same kind of things that I've had in all the consulting companies that I've worked at, I have here, which is, you were talking about the chicken that... it felt like free reign all of a sudden. I still feel like that. I still feel like I can spin up a synapse workspace if I want. I can start plugging away at Python to figure out this text analytics problem that somebody posted on our Slack channel. But see, the other thing that as a director that I'm also looking for are ways to help our consultants grow. So for instance, if somebody hasn't seen Power BI report server, I can also spin that up, somebody who's never connected to analysis services cube, I can also spin that up.
Angel Abundez (00:37:30):
So there's things that I'd like to learn that I know are like future, not just my future, but all of our consultant's future, but also things that I've seen in the past, right? With the clients that I've seen, that I'm very fortunate. That's one thing that I did want to say on this, is that the consultant companies, where I worked, I'm very fortunate to have worked with those teams and having worked with the clients that I worked on, because it brought me to this point where now seeing what I've seen, now I can come and talk about those stories, right?
Angel Abundez (00:38:02):
We all have these stories that we can talk about, but it helps to know like, "Oh yeah, this big client approached it this way," or, "This little client didn't do it that way because they don't have the resources. So they did it this way," right? So all of these experiences are helping me now to guide our team, guide our people, to make decisions and try to formulate solutions, but there's still a lot to learn, there's still tons and tons of new technologies coming up, and we just got to stay on top of it.
Rob Collie (00:38:34):
You really brought home with some good coach speak at the end there. Like, yeah, we just got to go out there and execute one play at a time and on to Philadelphia.
Angel Abundez (00:38:46):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:38:48):
I'm wondering how much it would cost us to license the use of that free range chicken cartoon from Gary Larson in our recruiting. Now hiring free range chickens.
Angel Abundez (00:39:00):
Yeah. That's another thing that I was really excited about when I came to P3, was the marketing. Obviously having a podcast is awesome. It gives people a sense of who we are, and the type of people that we partner with, and that we're friends with, and that we've worked with. I think towards the tail end of where I was at with design mine, I got exposed to marketing departments and got to see how marketing departments work. And that really fascinates me. And I think if I had a pivot that I would do sometime in my career, it might be something to do in marketing, because I think it's so much fun. Yeah. Tom's shaking his head like, no,
Rob Collie (00:39:38):
How dare you, Tom? This is how my career has taken this turn. And Angel, when you're saying, you've got to see how marketing departments work, I'm like, "Oh really? Can you come tell me?"
Thomas LaRock (00:39:49):
Forget it. And marketing's full. There's no jobs available-
Angel Abundez (00:39:52):
Marketing's full. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:53):
Go somewhere else.
Angel Abundez (00:39:54):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:39:56):
No, it's not so much that I want to try to be a marketer. I can't. I had a job at a consulting place where all I was expected to do was come in, show the shiny tools and go, and I hated that. I'm not a sales guy. But it's just the data piece, Tom. It's the data piece. They have a lot of data and it's like, they're barely doing anything with it.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:18):
I agree. For most part, my experiences, they have way more data than they know what to do with or what they can do with. However, I also know what they don't know. And I know that quite often companies have a team for marketing analytics and they are actively trying to go through the data to figure things out. So where you described, like when you're showing something shiny, that's more like a sales engineering type thing. And the marketing aspect can be fascinating, the idea of A/B testing, trying to drive engagement. The downside to the marketing is when you put out materials and you've chosen words that you think are just fine but somebody comes back and they nitpick and they go, "No, your product said it would do X and it doesn't do that at all." And you're like, "Well, no, it does.", "Well, it doesn't do X the way I want to do, so you're lying."
Thomas LaRock (00:41:05):
And you're like, "But I'm sorry for the confusion. I didn't intentionally lie in my materials." Or when somebody yells at you for your choice of Google Adwords, and you're like, "But that's how Google works. I have no control over this. Do you want me to not advertise?" So there's some pain points with the marketing. I really enjoy, as I call it, I'm an advocate. I'm an advocate for solar winds products. And so, the winds in general. So I love the advocacy in a lot of different ways because I'm not just an advocate for solar winds, but I'm advocate for our customers back into the product team to help make better products for our customers and for future customers. So that's the aspect of marketing that I followed into, which I really do enjoy more than not. I don't enjoy when there are times at other companies where I've seen people come across and they say, "Our product does this thing, so I'm just going to go off and say, it does this thing better than anybody else."
Thomas LaRock (00:42:00):
And you're like, "Actually, it doesn't. It doesn't even do the thing you think it does. Please don't print that." You're knowingly lying at this point. "Yeah, but I need downloads. I need eyeballs. My metrics are clicks and page views, and I don't care how I get them." And that's the side of marketing that I don't enjoy seeing or participating in. But yes, the data is fabulous and fascinating and you could spend all day trying to figure out that one targeted segment that can drive engagement and give the numbers. And yes, it is all there for you. So Rob, you should put him in charge of marketing. Use me as a reference Angel. Use me as a reference.
Rob Collie (00:42:41):
I had a colleague here at P3 who never really believed in anything we were doing. And so it's no surprise that eventually he left. But at one point, as I was getting excited about marketing, and basically every time I would try to get excited about something, he tried to tell me that I was wrong. And so, as I was getting exited about marketing... I said, something like, "I think marketing is fun. It's going to be fun." And he looked to me and said, "If you're doing it right, it's never fun." You touched on a couple things there, Tom, that definitely are fun, right? Messaging, advocacy. If you view digital marketing, as I have come to view it as a way to use the technology to scale out a human interaction with the world, if you look at it that way, right? Like, there's an important message, there's an important conversation to be had, and you can't reach everybody face to face, right? So how do you take that truth?
Rob Collie (00:43:38):
This is actually a really important point. A lot of marketing, I think, is marketing a commoditized product or service and trying to get the customer to choose you over one of your completely indistinguishable competitors. There's no real basis for choosing one over the other. It's going to be about the same, but you try to convince them that it isn't the same. We have the luxury of not being like that. We have a real truth to share if we are truly different, truly better. Okay. So now you view the technology as, "Okay, how do we scale that out?" Right? "How do we use technology as a lever to get that message out?" And it's going to help everybody that hears it that eventually comes to work with us and it's going to help us do it because it's going to grow our business, right?
Rob Collie (00:44:19):
In 2009, 2010, when I left Microsoft, what I discovered over the next few years, was that I really liked messaging. I really liked advocacy, and I never had known that about myself, a skill that I really hadn't had much use for when I worked at Microsoft, a latent talent. And so I still really am into that part, right? The messaging, that human truth, very much into that. I'm also really into the data. There's something really cool about splicing together in a Power BI model, all of the data that you get from Adwords with all the data that's in our CRM, and it's in our accounting system and all of that, calculating longterm value of advertising spend is a beautiful Power BI problem. I'm like Power BI is made for this.
Rob Collie (00:45:06):
Over the years, I keep waiting for the part where if you're doing it right, it's not fun. Because even though, we always disagreed about everything, like I always took his opinion seriously, that's why it always hurts so much, right? I was like, "Oh man, he must be right." So I guess we finally found the part that isn't all that much fun, which is really fine tuning ad copy to match up with landing page copy so that the Google algorithm rewards you appropriately. There's a point at which you take one message, one truth, but then you have to factor that true message into 60 different sub flavors to match up with all these very specific situations. It's still not the worst work. It's not the least fun thing in the world.
Rob Collie (00:45:52):
Maybe there was something else that was not fun about marketing that he was talking about, that I'm still yet to encounter, because like everything I do, I don't follow a handbook. It's not even necessarily so much at a disdain for the way things have been done before. It's just that I just can't work that way. I can't go read the book, even if I wanted to and do it that way. It's like, let's just dive in. If I don't dive in, I'm not ever going to get engaged. I'm just going to sit back and read books and never do anything. I know that about myself. I need to jump in. And so that's how we've been doing things and it's been working so far. Like I said, Angel, if you've seen how these things actually work, I'm intensely interested.
Angel Abundez (00:46:30):
I don't know what it is about spending little bits and it starting to grow your business. But I can remember when I did meet you Tom, and went out to that business analytics conference, my talk that I gave out there was something I called the subscription economy. And this was before Spotify, before Disney+, before Paramount Plus, before all of these subscription services, right? I can remember putting pictures in that slide deck about me being a paper boy and going around house to house and asking for their money for their newspaper, right? That was the beginning of subscriptions, right? Going around, getting people's newspapers. And I had just happened to work for a company that had a subscription service and developed a model around it, a data warehouse, and figured out how to analyze their subscriptions. And they were looking for basic things like how many new customers did we get? How many renewals? How many cancellations?
Angel Abundez (00:47:27):
And their customers were paying like a hundred bucks a month to get specialized healthcare. So it's the same kind of concept, but then it's the opposite. You're not spending, you're getting, right? You're receiving the revenue, a hundred bucks from this person, a hundred bucks from that person, and it's so amazing to me, like, me and my family, we pay the 15 bucks a month for a family plan for Spotify, we pay for iCloud, and we have a bunch of subscription services, just like I think other parents do, and it's amazing to me how those just all add up. It's something about how many little things can add up to these huge things. That's what I think is fascinating about it, but I totally understand.
Angel Abundez (00:48:07):
I wouldn't like that evil side of marketing either, and I think probably you get that with bigger teams, maybe, because the smaller teams I've worked with, they're crunching on the numbers, trying to figure out, like you said, Rob, the messaging and trying to figure out all that hard work. But I guess I have the fun part at the end of the month where I see, okay, how much did you spend and how much did we get back on that spend. That's the part that I'm like, "Whoa, man, we spent this and we got that. Wow, that's awesome."
Rob Collie (00:48:36):
So half the money you spend in marketing, you're wasting, right? You go into it just knowing, because you're going to try something and it may not work. So you try to minimize that as best as you can. You mentioned it's a larger team. It doesn't have to be a very large team for marketing to be painful, it's if marketing has a subservient role to sales. If the sales team has more power in the company and the sales team doesn't make their number, I think because they can't do sales, it's because marketing's not doing their job. And that's the dynamic that happens more often than not, is that marketing gets pressure because somebody says, "We need downloads. We get more downloads if you send more emails.", "But the people don't want these emails from us anymore. They're unsubscribing.", "Well, find more people to send emails to. It's just a numbers game. Get on the phone, do this other stuff." That's demand gen and that's tough.
Angel Abundez (00:49:27):
Now that's actually something else we should talk about, Rob. The way we do sales is very different. That's a big difference from the places I've worked [inaudible 00:49:37]. Sales is typically done by salespeople, or a sales department, or business development directors. or whatever, right? At P3, everybody sells, everybody, but we don't think of it like that, but we are.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:49):
But the real thing that's missing from all these people, what you have to understand is the product or service should sell itself. All the salesman should do is to facilitate the conversation between the person and their wallet, how much are you willing to spend? You already know it has value. This product or service is amazing. You already know. I don't have to do anything. I'm just going to help you set up the transaction. And when sales and marketing and product all work together in harmony, then there's no pressure. You have numbers you want to hit, but it's not if you don't hit the number you're gone, and you guys have that service. The nature of your sales and marketing is so much different, and probably a beautiful and wonderful experience for everyone.
Rob Collie (00:50:29):
Tom, the way that people you've been describing when you started that sentence, I was anticipating how it was going to end. You were saying like, "You know what these people are missing?" I'm ready to jump and go, "Yeah. A soul. They're missing a soul. That's all they're missing."
Angel Abundez (00:50:47):
Tom, what I'm learning here, and I'm learning a ton here, is that conversation that you're facilitating, there are certain questions that you can ask that are better than, "Tell me about your pain points." I can't tell you how many times I've heard that question. "Tell me about your pain points." We're learning how to ask really good questions and letting the clients talk, not us talk, right? And also the other lesson I've come to learn here, which is super important is, don't start telling people what you think they need, "Oh, you need a training. You need a jumpstart. You need a whatever." It's like, no. Don't talk about that. Let the client talk, let them tell you what their problems are, what they're experiencing, what the lack of something is, what they think they need, all these things, and there's still a lot that I have to learn, but it's not to be a good sales guy.
Angel Abundez (00:51:37):
It's again, the way we do it and the way we intend to do it is, really just to get in to the client and really dig deep into the, what is their real problem and what is it that they could probably use the most value on, right? What is not the best solution? I don't want to call it that because there's never one solution, but we try to pick the best one that they're going to get the best bang for their buck. And in my career, I've been really lucky. I've done some projects where years later I get calls back, "Hey, you know that application you built, we're trying to move it over to whatever," some new application or something. "We need to talk to you about so-and-so." And I'm like, "You're still using that?" So that part is gratifying that something that as a consultant that you build, obviously that makes its way into many years later, they're still using it.
Angel Abundez (00:52:32):
And that's what I like to coach my team on is, don't build something for yourself or for the client, build it for the people that are going to come after you because people change roles, people change companies. Whatever you build, just make sure it can withstand the test of time. We like to use buzzwords like scalable and make sure it's scalable, well, make sure it's reliable. It's like, I say, no, just make it outlast you. Whatever you do, whatever you set up, whatever documentation you write, just make it so that it outlasts you and that you know you're doing the right thing.
Rob Collie (00:53:05):
Angel, I'm so glad that you brought up that there's a difference in, quote unquote, sales process, because I wouldn't have thought about that to bring it up. But yeah, this part is something that people probably heard me say before, but that whole rewinding in this conversation, like the technology of yesterday... and by the way, yesterday was very long. Yesterday, had a long run, right? So the technology of yesterday was built as a plumbing first architecture. That has so many rippling implications for the entire industry, the way that everything worked. And skipping ahead a little bit, one of the implications of all of that, the technology being built that way, was that all projects are big projects. There are no little projects, there are no fast projects. Everything is going to be glacially slow and gigantic.
Rob Collie (00:53:52):
Then another implication of that though, is that anyone that signs the contract for one of those big projects is putting some degree of their career on the line when they're signing up for this project. If you're the client and you're the person at the client who's ultimately responsible for making the decision to hire this consulting firm to execute this project, you're staking some of your reputation, and maybe ultimately your employment at that company on whether or not this thing is going to be a success, it's a big spend, right?
Rob Collie (00:54:28):
And so that just changes everything about the entire human equation. It creates like some Stockholm syndrome between the client and the consultant, and it requires a very different process. But by the way, there is some tremendous safety in that model for the consulting firm. It's very predictable. Once that contract is signed, you know that you're going to have a whole team of people employed and utilized for a long time. And the dirty little secret is that when it doesn't work out properly, right? Which it never does, you're going to get a change order and it's going to continue because you've got them. But when you change your business model, like we have, and that initial engagement is low risk, changes the entire dynamic of everything. Now, there's just like, if you can just bring the authenticity and say, "Look, results will speak for themselves," and you don't need like the dedicated swanky account executive, who by the way, also makes things so much more expensive, you've got to pay for that. It's just overhead.
Rob Collie (00:55:38):
So I'm glad that you brought that up. Because it is. It has to be a huge difference. Now, I have been sitting on a number of thoughts here that I want to spit out in rapid fire. First of all, second far side reference. There's another far side cartoon, the competition in nature, where the native Americans are taking like a cowboy to bury them in the sand so the ants can eat them, and the different ant hives are putting up all these marquee signs saying, "Come [bury 00:56:03] here. Your cowboy's here." You ever seen that? I mean-
Angel Abundez (00:56:07):
I have never seen that.
Rob Collie (00:56:08):
You just know that Gary Larson is actually like a really nice warm person with just a sick sense of humor, and those are my people. I like those people. And then I also mentioned on the podcast before that there's an old Bill Hicks skit where he asked the audience, "Does anybody in here work in marketing?" And he goes, "Oh yeah, you do? Yeah, kill yourself." I think it comes back to this whole soulless thing, right? There's no difference between those two anthills in the Gary Larson cartoon. So all you have is glitzy sparkle to advertise why your ants will do a better job of gruesomely disposing of your foe. No, there's no difference. Tom, you said that half of the spend is wasted and you just don't know which half. Well now, actually you do know, right? It's worse. It's 90%.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:00):
You don't know until after the fact.
Rob Collie (00:57:03):
Right. Of course not. But it used to be that you would never even know after the fact, right? There was no attribution, nothing. You just couldn't stop advertising on the Super Bowl because maybe that would just tragically disrupt your sales. But you might suspect that it makes no difference at all, but you don't want to be the one to take that risk because if sales plummet you're out of a job.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:22):
You're right. And I haven't seen pets.com advertise the Super Bowl in the wild now.
Rob Collie (00:57:27):
You're right.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:28):
Once they stopped, that was it. That was the end for them.
Rob Collie (00:57:30):
So a while ago, Tom, we were collectively trying to figure out the pronunciation of the word dearth. By the way, there's so many words that I've only read and I've never been around other human beings using them out loud, and you don't hear them in movies. So I don't actually know how to pronounce a lot of really smart words. Is it appreciate prescient, prescient? I have no idea.
Angel Abundez (00:57:49):
[inaudible 00:57:49].
Thomas LaRock (00:57:50):
Prescient. It's prescient. Just go with prescient.
Rob Collie (00:57:53):
I don't know about that. You're saying? Really?
Thomas LaRock (00:57:54):
Yeah. No. Trust me. It's going to sound so smart.
Rob Collie (00:57:58):
Is it niche? Is it niche? Is it niche, niche?
Thomas LaRock (00:58:00):
It is niche-
Rob Collie (00:58:01):
Seriously, niche? Are you sure it's not niche?
Thomas LaRock (00:58:05):
You can say niche and people... Here's the thing. If you say niche and somebody corrects you, you know that they're an asshole, so...
Rob Collie (00:58:12):
It's true. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:14):
And then you can say niche, but niche is the correct pronunciation.
Rob Collie (00:58:18):
There is an old joke, which is like, "Excuse me, can you tell me where the library is at?" And they say, "No, I can't," because you ended that sentence with a preposition. And then you go, "Oh, I'm sorry. Where's the library at asshole?"
Angel Abundez (00:58:35):
"Oh, it's over there. You just take a left down one block. There you go."
Rob Collie (00:58:38):
Anyway, at one point in the conversation, when we were sounding out the word dearth or whatever, right? A new character was born in my mind, Darth Vader. We need to figure out Darth Vader's backstory and how to work him into a story about data.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:51):
I think it should be Darth Data, not Vader, Data.
Rob Collie (00:58:56):
I don't know. I'll think about this. The Vader's important, but you're right. Darth Data, if you just gave this character the right shaped helmet.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:03):
Helmet? He's getting a spreadsheet for a head. What are you talking about?
Rob Collie (00:59:07):
So you're like... Now we've lost all metaphor. You've got to tie in somehow.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:11):
His helmet will be the Power BI bars. So it'll be spiked on one side like a vanilla ice thing.
Rob Collie (00:59:19):
It's just two bar charts, right? That are just stacked back to back. Okay. All right. I can get behind this.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:25):
His visor is just a sparkline.
Rob Collie (00:59:26):
Oh, okay. Now you're talking-
Thomas LaRock (00:59:29):
See, I work in marketing.
Rob Collie (00:59:31):
Oh, yeah. So what else should we do?
Angel Abundez (00:59:34):
I was going to suggest, we talk about the collaboration piece. P3 is the first company where I worked that's US-wide. I've worked at another consulting company where they were also US-wide but my region was the West Coast. So I was primarily trying to build the BI practice here in Northern California. So where I've come from, I didn't have a lot of managerial coaching, I guess, if you will. So where I came from, we had this notion of one-on-ones, which I dreaded really, because I thought to myself, like, "What's the use of them?" But it wasn't until Kaelin told me that we really need to make our people feel like they're part of our company, that clicked, because as a consultant, working for multiple clients, or even working on with one big client for a while, you can feel like you're in a silo. You can feel like all of a sudden, "Oh, I work for solar winds. I don't work for my company. I've been working with Tom for eight months or whatever."
Angel Abundez (01:00:38):
You never want people to feel like that. They work for P3, they work for us. And that's our culture, I feel like, is very much like we care about all people we hire. We fully recognize people they may come and go, they want to do different things or whatever, but at least while they're here, we want them to be able to say they enjoy their work here, right? They enjoy the people they work with, and that's the part I think we do a really good job of too. And it's a lot of my responsibility as a director to be sure that I make our consultants, even though they're everywhere... I've got consultants in Las Vegas, and New York, and Texas, and Kansas.
Angel Abundez (01:01:16):
So it's a challenge because we're all remote, but I think we really break down barriers by being authentic. I think all of our directors, that's the one thing that we're over ourselves, we don't have big egos or anything like that, we're authentic with people. And that's important because I think that's how you gain trust basically. I was talking to the executive coach that I'm working with. I meet with her once a month, and one of the things that she helped illuminate to me is that you can't ask somebody to do something for you if they don't trust you, right? Because I was asking her, "I don't want to be ever a mean manager. I don't want to be that kind of manager, like, 'Hey, I need you to do this for me right now.' But there are times where I'm going to need to do that, right? I'm going to need to say, 'Hey, we've got to put in the weekend or, 'Hey, you got to finish this up. I know you want to finish this other thing, but we've got to do this other thing.'"
Angel Abundez (01:02:05):
And so that whole trust thing really only comes from being authentic with someone. So my one-on-ones now are completely different than what they were when I first got here. At first, it was about, "Crack open your report. Let me see your report. What are you using? What are you connecting to?" And it was all very technical. Now, my one-on-ones are more talking about somebody found a dog in a river. Now, they have that dog. It's their dog, talking about somebody else's, you just got over COVID. That's still a very big part of our reality, right? And when that hit, I took care of it. I was like, "You, get well, get better. I'll put in your time off. Don't worry about it." So I think that's a very important part of the P3 culture here, is it helps nurture a lot of other things, collaboration, trust with each other, asking questions, not working in silos, that kind of thing.
Rob Collie (01:02:59):
That's really gratifying to hear as well. I am, admittedly now, somewhat removed from a lot of the reality you were just describing, to hear you talk about it at the end of your first four months, right? Honestly, it feels like you've been here a lot longer than that, in a good way. Not like, "Oh, man, you've only been here four months. Man, I can't.... Oh, really?"
Angel Abundez (01:03:21):
It's weird. I feel like I'm just starting. There's so much to learn here.
Rob Collie (01:03:26):
I would've guessed like eight months. Time is just such a funny thing. I would have guessed eight months. When you said four, I'm like, really?
Angel Abundez (01:03:32):
Yeah. It goes by fast.
Rob Collie (01:03:34):
That's crazy.
Angel Abundez (01:03:35):
It goes by fast.
Rob Collie (01:03:37):
Well, Angel, I'm so glad we got to do this. Of course, I'm even happier that you're here. Having known you for so long, I'm so glad that you're part of the team and we did our four month waiting period before we got you on the podcast, and that expired. So this has been great.
Angel Abundez (01:03:51):
Yeah. Super excited that you picked me and that I'm here at P3 and doing my thing here.
Rob Collie (01:03:57):
We didn't pick you, you chose us. I'm just kidding. It's both, right? That's how it works.
Angel Abundez (01:04:02):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:04:03):
Thanks again, sir.
Angel Abundez (01:04:03):
Thank you guys.
Announcer (01:04:04):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
This is the 50th Episode of Raw Data! Thank you to our wonderful guests that have made this podcast so enjoyable. We also would not be doing this show if it wasn't for you, the listener. We thank you so very much for your support! We sought to talk with and about the humans that make the data world go around, and we feel that's exactly what we're doing!
For this episode, we wanted to do something a bit different. Our guest is a very special human-Bob "Pop" Collie is Rob's 96 year old grandfather on his father's side. Rob credits Pop Collie for so many things, like teaching him the power of "Why Not?" That spirit of "Why Not?" has molded and shaped not only Rob's philosophy, but it's also a huge part of the philosophy of P3 Adaptive. When someone tells us something is not possible, we ask...."why not?" And make it possible!
If it wasn't for Rob's interaction with Dave Gainer during his time at Microsoft, there's no doubt that Rob's life and career path would have been vastly different, and very likely not in a good way! Dave currently is Vice President of Product for Microsoft Office, but he's ALWAYS been a great leader of people. As you listen to this conversation, you'll quickly realize why Dave is in the position of leadership that he's in. He's QUITE good at it, and he shares his story and his approach towards being a leader.
References in this episode:
Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari
The Borg from Star Trek
Ken Puhls on Raw Data
Lori Rodriguez on Raw Data
Kellan Danielson on Raw Data
Mark Cuban/Wayne Winston Tweet
The Sphinx from Mystery Men
Tom's Blog Post-Where Have All The Good Managers Gone?
Dick Winters - Beyond Band of Brothers: The War Memoirs Of Major Dick Winters
Episode Timeline:
- 2:30 - Dave turns the tables and asks us some questions and the unconventional story of Dave Gainer
- 25:30 - Dave and Rob's paths cross (and Rob learns some vital lessons), the importance of storytelling to bring humans together, and what makes a good leader
- 45:30 - Dave's leadership principles and guidelines and how he formed them, the influence that Dave has had on Rob (and many others),
- 1:10:30 - A good leader can come from anywhere (ala Ratatouille) and the role of fate in life and career
- 1:29:30 - Dave swears he isn't a radical (we think he is), Dick Winters from Band of Brothers has some rules Dave emulates, incentives and remote workers
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Dave Gainer. Dave is a VP at Microsoft in the Office division, and ultimately some products that you very much care about are things that are in his purview. Things like Excel, for instance. But in this interview, we really don't talk about any of that. What we talk about instead is leadership and mentoring, and specifically the impact that he had on me in my career. The reason that we focused on that, is that in my experience Dave has some very, very clear and refreshing views on what it is to be a leader, what it is to be a manager. The reason I know that is because I worked for him, he was my manager at a very, very crucial, informative juncture in my own career.
Rob Collie (00:00:47):
Now, of course, I've learned a lot of valuable lessons, a lot of valuable things from a very large number of people in my career, and yet I don't think I've learned as much from any one person as I have from Dave. In my long journey of growing into who I am today, becoming comfortable my own skin, becoming competent and learning to leverage my own strengths, I just don't think anyone's had nearly as much influence on me as Dave did back in the early 2000s. There are actually a number of us walking around today, alumni from that era, who say very similar things about this individual.
Rob Collie (00:01:23):
Here's maybe the coolest part, the habits that make him so impactful, so successful, so valuable, are actually accessible. Meaning I think they are easier to emulate than you might expect. As I learned to emulate some of these habits of his, that became a tremendous inflection point in my life and in my career. I suspect that you will take away at least one, but probably multiple new habits just from listening to this conversation. What does it take to be a good manager, a good leader? Let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:59):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please.
Announcer (00:02:04):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive, is data with the human element.
Dave Gainer (00:02:28):
Do you want me to do the welcome?
Rob Collie (00:02:29):
Oh yeah.
Dave Gainer (00:02:31):
Hey Rob, welcome to your podcast. Can I see something to start out?
Rob Collie (00:02:35):
Sure.
Dave Gainer (00:02:36):
Okay. I do a lot of walking. I go out for a lot of walks at night, go on runs. I've gone up to Canada a few times to help my folks, and you know that requires like 40 hours of driving either way, because I don't want to take a plane with COVID. I get a lot of time to listen to podcasts and audio books and stuff. I probably follow 30 podcasts, but I listen to all of yours and it's probably one of the top two in rotation just because you guys do such a phenomenal job with it. I just want to say welcome to your podcast. You guys do a fantastic job.
Rob Collie (00:03:05):
Wow. That is awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much. Best intro ever. We're just going to have to have you as a regular.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:14):
No, I think we're just going to replay that every podcast.
Rob Collie (00:03:18):
He's our hype.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:20):
Yeah, hype man.
Rob Collie (00:03:20):
Not our hype man. It's like the whole hype department. Well, Dave, that is a hell of an introduction. What do you do these days Dave?
Dave Gainer (00:03:29):
I think we refer to it these days more and more as the head of product for a portfolio of applications that are associated with Office. Some of them you get with Office. That'd be things like Excel, Microsoft Forms, which you may have bumped into. There's a thing called Microsoft Planner, which is a simple project management tool. You can think of it like as a [inaudible 00:03:48] board. And then a lot of the extensibility bits and pieces of Office. If you're going to write code behind Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, that's my team.
Dave Gainer (00:03:56):
We also run developer portals and help with the developer program and run the store that you'd go get applications out of. And then I also am responsible for Microsoft Project and Microsoft Visio, which are interesting because they're Office like things, but they're sold on their own. Unlike Excel, which is just really a feature of Office 365, they are standalone many businesses. And so I'm responsible for that. I have a bunch of people that run those things like Brian, who you talked to recently, that report to me. My job is to work with an engineering and design peer to manage that group of things.
Rob Collie (00:04:31):
You're in charge of things, a lot of things actually, that people listen to this show care about. Microsoft is very interesting topic to a lot of people, but guess what? That's not what we're going to be talking about today. We're not going to really be talking about Microsoft. What we'll be talking about is you, Dave, where you came from, how you came to be who you are and what it is that I think makes you different and valuable. Also our relationship over the years. Spoiler alert, you've had a lot to do with my development as a professional. I want to set that context up front. This isn't going to be an inside dive into what it's like to be an executive at Microsoft. We'll leave that for someone else on some other day.
Dave Gainer (00:05:13):
Hey Rob, hey Thomas, I have a few questions for you guys before we get rolling on this thing. Thomas, I listen to all these podcasts, you get involved, I think I, I missed the podcast that explains how you got involved and how you came to join Rob and hang out with people every day and talk to them. What's that all about?
Thomas LaRock (00:05:29):
I honestly have no idea. Rob one day he sent me a text. "Do you want to do a podcast?" Of course my answer was yes, because I had nothing going on except this pandemic. I needed to get out and tell to people. I've known Rob since he accosted me in New Orleans back in 2010. He and I share a data gene, we might be half brothers, I'm not sure. But he thought it'd be great for me to come and hang out and talk data. I try to bring a slightly different perspective to the conversations because when Rob talks with a lot of the folks that he's intersected in his life, it's from one particular viewpoint of data. My viewpoint of data is a little bit more on the administration side so there's some intersect for us. But every now and then when I hear a conversation going one way, I'm like, yeah, but you guys forgot about XYZ. This is why there's additional friction in a certain area. I'd like to pretend I have some value.
Rob Collie (00:06:30):
Well, you're also pretending that we talk about data on this show. What we really do is talk about being people who happen to occasionally work with data, is a lot more about the human side and so-
Thomas LaRock (00:06:39):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:06:40):
You do bring a different perspective because it turns out you're a different flavor of human.
Dave Gainer (00:06:44):
Hey, speaking of the human part, so this is something Rob, I wanted to ask you before we get going. Your podcast is data with a human element, but data can't have a human element because data's at best a mathematical construct. What are you really trying to say about that? Is it about the human beings behind the data? Explain to the listeners.
Rob Collie (00:07:01):
Yeah. The strange realization that I had about the BI industry and it's not strange in hindsight, at the time it certainly was, is that I was seeing this amazing difference in the way that Power Pivot and later Power BI worked in the workplace. It just did magical things relative to all of this heavyweight technology that we'd had for a very long time. It was very difficult to explain. Why is this new technology so much better than the old technology? You look at it and you go, it's not like it's really that much more advanced. It's not like suddenly the brain inside the computer. The software brain just became an order of magnitude or several orders of magnitude, more intelligent. It wasn't like that at all. It turned out to just be that the new software fit the people better.
Rob Collie (00:07:51):
That's all it did. It allowed people to work in the way that people actually need to work. The software met the people where they were, rather than forcing the people to meet the software. This is really the difference between the Power BI engine and its data modeling concepts and its DAX formula language, versus the MDX multidimensional model that, Dave, you and I were working on the first time that you and I were really work together. You could argue that the multidimensional one in many ways was more advanced than this new one. The end memory stuff is pretty hot and the compression's really hot and all of that, that's like sci-fi coolness. But really the things in the end that make the difference is just that it's about the people.
Rob Collie (00:08:35):
And so you used to harp on me all the time about, if you can't explain something so simply you don't understand it well enough. I wasn't particularly good at that at the beginning, working with you, but I use that all the time. Everything is about the people and everything can be explained simply. If you're not focused on the people and you're not explaining it simply, then you don't actually understand what's going on. And so I think the stories of how people in this space come to contact data, how do they end up working on it, why do they end up working in data as compared to everybody else? What is the data gene, but what do you do with it? Why is it valuable? How does it play out in the human plane? Because in the end if no human being benefits from this stuff, then it's not worth anything. And so I find the human side of all of this to be far more interesting to talk about.
Rob Collie (00:09:26):
Plus a podcast doesn't really fit technical anyway, let's talk about how to write a really well-constructed summarized function. Like, eh, no, that needs to be a video. That video won't be starring me because I don't like the summarize function very much and it's just, it doesn't really speak to me like it speaks to some other people. But if you work in data we want this show to be relevant to you. But we also want it to be interesting and also valuable. I think the most valuable is in the human plane not the tech plane. The software is never the star. Power BI is not the star of any engagement that our company's involved in. It's the people associated with all this that end up kicking ass as a result of changing the tool set to one that actually fits the way that they work.
Dave Gainer (00:10:15):
Like I said, I love this podcast. I listen to it all the time and I don't listen to it because of the software. You get a lot of people in here that have really good stories. I think more than anything, it's just Rob hanging out with humans, doing what humans do that. That's so powerful.
Rob Collie (00:10:27):
I appreciate that. Without going into a tremendous amount of detail up front, let me just say that my interaction with Dave Gainer, many years ago now, represents a pretty significant inflection point in my career. He had a lot of impact on me and for the better, let's be clear. Let's not leave the vector unsigned. You're a leader, that is definitely a part of your job description. It was 15, 20 years ago, it certainly is today. I have this thesis that leaders don't have to be flashy. You don't have to be the Steve Jobs type. I just think that there's so much that you have to offer. You're a software professional today. You work in the data corner. You're not typically working on the consumer side of things. You're up to your eyeballs in the data side of the world, but that's not your background really? Is it?
Dave Gainer (00:11:22):
No, it's not really my background at all. I was probably 24 or 25 before I saw a spreadsheet, for real. Yeah, if you go way back, I feel like at some level there's probably been like some gravitational pull pulling me in a product like Excel together over time. But it wasn't something that happened in a very linear fashion. I actually grew up in a smaller city in Northern Canada. I was like a lot of us where the first thing I bumped into by way of computer was some Apple II that my buddy who had a prof for a dad at the local university brought home. We went and looked at it and said, "What's it do?" We found the word processor and that got boring after about 15 minutes, so then we found some really bad video games and learned to program basic.
Dave Gainer (00:12:01):
I played around with PCs in high school, we got a few Commodore 64s. I spent one Christmas holiday programming a Blackjack simulation. But going to get a formal education in computers, just wasn't a thing that dawn on me. I think even at that time, I'm old enough where what you're taught if you went to get a degree at university was mainframes and many computers, so it wasn't going to happen anyway. I wanted to be a journalist. I loved reading. I loved history. I loved all these things. I went to school and I spent six years at university, five years was because I just liked taking courses. I took a year off to go run a bar and restaurant in a mountain resort, which was it's own education.
Dave Gainer (00:12:36):
And so I ended up getting degree, I think in history and English, but I have enough credits for a degree in anthropology too, because I love studying people and systems. I guess that makes sense for a journalist. I went and got a job as a journalist and did that for a year and boy did it suck. I was going to be like Ernest Hemingway. I was going to go write truth and beauty. It was going to be amazing. I got this job on this magazine. You can think of this like Time Magazine, but for Western Canada. A lot of local politics and oil and stuff like that. What I discovered, it was the weirdest thing, is that a newsroom full of my coworkers that are all people like me, young and out of school, and every day the managing editor come in and tell us what to write. "We're going to write a story on and this is what we're going to say."
Dave Gainer (00:13:15):
It was, even back in those days, heavy arterial slant based on the politics, the guy that owned the magazine. And so after about 12 months of that, I thought, well, this isn't what I thought it was. Plus the problem with being in the news industry back then is, you had to have set printed copy and that had to happen at 7:00 AM on Saturday morning so they could print all weekend to put out on Monday. I tended to work from noon till midnight, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. That meant if you wanted to go out for a date or drink beer with your buddies, impossible. It's like double whammy. I did what anyone would do with five years of education and experience running a bar and that, I quit and went and drove a bus in the Rocky Mountains.
Dave Gainer (00:13:52):
My parents. My parents are awesome and they're a big part of my story too. They said, "Do you have a plan?" I said no and they let me go off to the mountains. Eventually I add up in an MBA in Toronto. This is how carefully I planned my career. I had a buddy who was going to school there in an MBA. He said, "You should come on out." I had a brother that live there and he's like, "You can stay in my basement." And so I went off to school, got an MBA degree and as luck would have it, got a job at Accenture, it was called Andersen Consulting at the time. That was a great job. It was a good way to break into industry. They taught me a lot of things, how to be a really good manager, how to do hiring, how to break down a work plan, how to represent your stuff in front of people. It was great. I worked there for a lot of years, became a manager and then ran into another problem, which is cool company. You got to do lots of fun things. There was a point in my life where I had an apartment in Vancouver, BC, an apartment in San Jose and an apartment in Munich. It sounds super glamorous, but it's this other problem if you're on the road 260 days a year, you never see anyone. You still can't get a date. I had that in common with the journalists. I quit that and ended up at Microsoft because I wanted to be around interesting technical problems and people trying to do great things, but I didn't want to travel anymore. That was the path. There's funny things that we can talk about as we talk today that I pluck from all of those experiences. Because it turns out you learn a lot running a bar, you learn a lot driving a tour bus. A lot of that is surprisingly applicable in a corporate software job.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:14):
I need to know, how did driving a tour bus help you with your position at Microsoft today?
Dave Gainer (00:15:22):
Couple things. The variant of the job I had was great, because the company I worked for, they had this whole business model of, normally when you put a tour through the Canadian Rockies, that's why I was working, [inaudible 00:15:33] all these beautiful places for anyone that's ever been there. You have a driver on the bus and then you have someone that sits there and knows all the geography and natural history and flora and fauna and animals and does the entertaining and educating. We're going to make ourselves money because we're only going to have one of those, so the driver's going to do both of those things. It was great. My dad grew up in that area, so I knew a lot about it anyway.
Dave Gainer (00:15:53):
And so on one hand it's a great job. You have no boss. You spend six days puttering from place to place. You stay in the same nice hotels with the people you're taking around. They're all on holidays. They're super happy. But you have to learn how to communicate with a wide range of people, tell stories, be entertaining, keep attention, read the room, read the vibe. I would say from perspective of communications inside the context of companies or customers, it was wonderful practice for the 12 months I did that. Yeah, you're basically on the mic eight hours a day, making sure that it's all working and what you're trying to say.
Dave Gainer (00:16:23):
And so I think in some funny way that helped me become a better, storyteller's the word you hear a lot these days in the computer industry, but just able to go in and grab some people. Some days it would be a bunch of Australians that were all rowdy and just wanting to laugh. And then you'd get the bus full of British folks that were super cerebral and wanted to know like the details of the geography. You had to figure out how to meet people where they are, keep them focused and make them happy.
Rob Collie (00:16:46):
All the while conducting the conversation with them in the rear view mirror, while not driving the bus off of some thousand meter cliff [inaudible 00:16:54].
Dave Gainer (00:16:55):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:16:56):
Just [inaudible 00:16:57] degree of difficulty.
Dave Gainer (00:16:59):
I did scrape up my fair share buses, but it was all very unexciting things. I'd pull up in front of the hotel and not notice a rock that I was supposed to go around quite as much and then I'd crunch in the side of the bus.
Rob Collie (00:17:09):
One time rented an RV and they told us, this is 95% of the damage to these RVs, is people pulling out of a gas station don't realize that the back end of it when they turn right is going to swing out to the left and smash into the island. Dave, did you know that my two job offers that I got down to out of college were Accenture and Microsoft?
Dave Gainer (00:17:33):
No, I don't think I did know that.
Rob Collie (00:17:33):
It was still Andersen at the time. Subconsciously I'm like, nah, Dave's got that covered. I'll meet him in a few years and he'll bring that with him and I'll just go get started at Microsoft.
Dave Gainer (00:17:45):
But clearly we're going to meet one way or another.
Rob Collie (00:17:46):
Apparently. Because Excel was pulling us both. I had no idea. Do you know that I one time, Dave, told a manager at Microsoft before we met that I would, for example, I would never go to work on something like Excel? I just was so derisive about it. Like, no, that's so beneath me, I would never go work on something like Excel, and Excel is sitting over there in the corner like this giant attract of gravity going, we will see young Skywalker. You're orbiting in, you just have no idea. Yeah. Okay. The programming of the Blackjack simulator, that's a flag, right? That you were doing that even while you were thinking, I'm going to go be a journalist. Nothing that sophisticated in my middle school or elementary school years for sure
Dave Gainer (00:18:34):
That was high school. Honestly I look back at those days and think, boy, life could have gone in all sorts of different directions because I remember bringing that thing home and wasn't like anyone instructed it, and I just figured it out. I watch my kids today, they're at the age I am and the programming they've learned to do. It really is, I think there's moments in your life when your brain's just ready for these things, and then it takes off. I don't even know why 21. I didn't really play 21 beyond what any normal teenage kid at the time did.
Rob Collie (00:19:00):
It just seemed like attractable problem to program.
Dave Gainer (00:19:03):
Yep. It's funny. I remember my first spreadsheet experience. And so I head to off to Toronto, which at the time was in the middle of a real estate boom and rent was really expensive. And so I needed money. When I got to MBA school, they were looking for someone to be the proctor of the computing lab, the MBA computing lab. I thought that's a pretty fancy title. It basically amount to sitting in the computing lab, answering questions for all the people that didn't know how to use computers particularly well. But I remember the first day I went in and thought, okay, I know how to use Word perfect. I had heard about Harvard Graphics. So I loaded up, played with it a bit and figured it out. And then I opened up Lotus 1-2-3.
Dave Gainer (00:19:38):
I'd never seen a spreadsheet before. I saw this grid and I swear, for 10 minutes I tried to find something useful to do with this application. I couldn't, so I just closed [inaudible 00:19:47]. I said, I guess if something comes up there I'll have to just wing it. That was my first moment with a spreadsheet. Now, of course in MBA school they eventually make you do things like build income statements and balance sheets and value derivatives. I got pretty darn good at it. But at the beginning, I still remember that, here's an app and it was just not apparent what to do with it. Everything else had a metaphor that was human understandable. We knew what a slide was if you'd ever taken a camera and used it, you knew the piece of paper was. But just empty rows and columns, what are you going to do with that?
Rob Collie (00:20:15):
I remember AppleWorks for the Apple II. It had a word processor, a spreadsheet and a database. I had the same experience. I could never figure out what the spreadsheet and the database were good for. It's just like AppleWorks. That's that thing that comes with the word processor and there's a other two things that no one uses. My dad one time asked me, came home and said, look, "Son, at work we've sent a bunch of change orders out to a bunch of different contractors over time, and for each change order, we have the list of contractors we sent to, but we don't have a list of, by contractor, which change orders they received. It's just, we're not organized that way." He's like, "If I gave you the list of all these things, the way that we have it, could you give it back to me the other way?"
Rob Collie (00:21:02):
Instinctively, I said, "Yeah. That's got to be what the other parts of AppleWorks are for." I still couldn't figure it out. Eventually I had to go back to him in shame and say, "I can't help you." Imagine how easy that would be today, that same problem. What I tell people is that sooner or later in their business career, in any career, any office career, you are going to cross paths with a spreadsheet. You're going to cross paths with Excel. Most people bounce off in terror. They bounce off of the Excel collision. But one out of 15 sticks. You were being forced to stick because you were in an MBA school, but most people's real collision with spreadsheets happens not in in a classroom, not when they're a student, it happens when they're in some other job. Do you recall like any of your emotional reaction to it?
Dave Gainer (00:21:54):
I can't say I honestly sat around MBA computing lab saying I love this application, but I think as far as the homework we had to do, that was the one that was borderline pleasurable. Yeah, we'd have to write papers. That's fine. But working with it was fun. I once read somewhere might have been Joel on Software, Joel Spolsky. He was actually an Excel program manager many, many, many, many years ago, like on the Excel 95 release or something. He wrote a pretty interesting blog post once saying at some point something sparked in his head about spreadsheets and that they were just like a very generic data structure. They were grids organized into a pad of grids. That was a light bulb for him because he joined Excel thinking this is for accountants to do accounting work. He left saying, this is really just a generic data structure where anything is possible. He was making a bigger point about some other app he was building, but that's the piece of that stuck with me.
Dave Gainer (00:22:44):
That was the thing I enjoyed about it. When I was younger I was pretty into creative stuff. I'd spend as much time drawing and painting as I did goofing around with technology. I haven't done that in 150 years probably since I got into high school. But I think Excel, I enjoy in part, this is a spreadsheet point, certainly Excel because I'm responsible for it. Because it allows you to be very expressive and solve problems and model things. I remember once the Excel team did a big piece of user research, they do these things called baselines where they go talk to 200 different people. Again, to get back to my university degrees, it's a very ethnographic thing where you go when you study people and how they work with technologies.
Dave Gainer (00:23:22):
The funny thing that they came back with was, 50% of people, and these numbers aren't perfectly right, but it's about a half and half split, find Excel intimidating, but they understand it's a professional tool. The other 50% find it very creative, a very creative tool. And so that caught a lot of people off guard because like what? No, that's Adobe Photoshop or something like that. But the point that landed with me is, once you figure out what this grid is about and a bit of how to use it, it really is just a canvas upon which to scratch or you can put together mathematical models, mechanical models. It really is a creative tool. I think that's the part of spreadsheeting whether it was back in the MBA days with Lotus 1-2-3 or with Excel, that sticks to this day. I think there's part of that, which is as soon as people get over some skills gap, then they fall into this other category of, yeah, this is a canvas that I'm going to use to do my work, it's not a challenging tool that I find difficult.
Rob Collie (00:24:14):
Obviously, I'm completely on side for this. It's a blank canvas with a little bit of structure and a whole lot of capability. There's a point at which you knew let's say six people, knew them really well, after a while futures were anonymously handed one of their spreadsheets and you're asked, "Who did this?" You're going to know who did it. You can look at it and go, oh, that's a Rob. Look at that. Oh, there's that little flourish there with the... I see that. Look at that offset or whatever. It's not just about personal style, there's this thing that you're bringing into existence. The world gets something new that never existed before after you sit down and do it. And so sometimes it's just like, you just can't help but smile after you've created this thing. You've seen our wheel of inquisition, right?
Dave Gainer (00:24:59):
I've heard you describe it.
Rob Collie (00:25:00):
Dave, it's got realistic physics. Realistic and yet still predictable.
Dave Gainer (00:25:06):
Well, if something's worth doing Rob, it's worth doing well.
Rob Collie (00:25:09):
It's worth doing well, that's right. We're burying the lead a little bit here in a really cheesy way. It's about what I learned from you. One of my earliest memories of you was before I ever worked for you. I had been at this point in my career, I had been in a transitional phase in terms of the types of interview questions I've been asking. Now at that point, there had been a long tradition at Microsoft predating us that there were a lot of brain teases being asked in interviews back then. In fact, there were websites, when I interviewed at Microsoft, there were websites that helped you scout the Microsoft interviews ahead of time with their particular brain teasers and things like that. And so if you were clever, you found your own brain teasers to fit in with this.
Rob Collie (00:25:52):
And so I had some of my own brain teas that I asked people that I'm pretty sure weren't on these websites. But over time I'd started to get the impression that maybe these weren't the best gauge of whether someone could actually do the job. I'd started to ask a different question that I had seen some other people asking and I really like this other style, but again, there were still so many people and very influential people sometimes, not always but sometimes, that were still doing the brain teaser style. And so I had flipped a coin on this interview loop and I had gone with a brain teaser question. And so I walk into your office, I'm prepared to tell you about this person's performance on the brain teaser. I didn't know what I was about to walk into, which was, I started to explain the brain teaser question. It was very clear, you made it pretty clear that first of all, you didn't really think this was a good judge of whether this person could do the job.
Rob Collie (00:26:40):
I was crushed, because, A, I was already on this path to changing my ways, and to be called out on something that I had secretly already been debating myself, it felt like I wasn't I wasn't even getting full credit for who I was. You and I didn't know each other at all at this point, really. It also took the wind out of my sails a little bit because I was prepared to really break down this person's performance on the brain teaser. I went ahead and did that.
Dave Gainer (00:27:09):
I'm at a disadvantage here because you have this memory that is special. It's amazing. You can pull things out that are long past any recollection I have. I'm like, I don't know, maybe that happened, maybe it didn't. I have no recollection. The same can pull movie lines out of the 10 million movies you've seen and I can't even remember one.
Rob Collie (00:27:28):
I don't want people to get the impression that I have some amazing memory. What I really have is a snapshot memory. There's certain moments in life where this snapshot goes off. My overall recall is relatively poor, but I do have this really intense snapshot memory. I mean, that hurt. That interaction was painful. It made an impression.
Dave Gainer (00:27:54):
Okay. Let's try this one. Do you remember when I swung down to your office, you were on the first floor in building 17, I was on the second floor. You're off on the XML gang, I was Mr. Excel person. I came down to try to suggest to you that maybe the thing you're putting in the Excel product should probably pick up a few of the design patterns in Excel, so it was less of a alien foreign thing. Do you remember that discussion?
Rob Collie (00:28:18):
No, I have no recollection of that whatsoever. No, counselor. No. I mean, I honestly don't which I think is telling.
Dave Gainer (00:28:28):
I guess maybe what we're discovering is, you and I remember different snapshots.
Rob Collie (00:28:31):
That's right.
Dave Gainer (00:28:32):
Because that was one where I sat down and I was very calmly saying, here's my reasoning and we're trying to build this thing and whatever the reasoning was to say, let's make this more like Excel and less like something you want living in Excel. You looked at me and said something along the lines of, look, you're not going to change my mind so I think we're wasting our time here. Do you want to keep talking or not?
Thomas LaRock (00:28:52):
That sounds like Rob.
Rob Collie (00:28:53):
That does sound like me, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:54):
That tracks.
Rob Collie (00:28:55):
I mean, yeah, let's just cut to the chase. Actually, I really had... Let's be fair. We're talking about a much younger...
Rob Collie (00:29:03):
Let's be fair, we're talking about a much younger version.
Dave Gainer (00:29:04):
Oh yeah, and that was a funny one, because I remember walking back upstairs thinking, okay, I'm going to need a different strategy on this guy. You make a good point too, which is like, we've all changed a ton. The interview thing, if we had that same interaction today, it would be wildly different.
Rob Collie (00:29:17):
In the end I came around to seeing things your way, and I'm a much better professional and probably even better person because of it. It's just that at the time, I was still in the camp of like, oh, you don't understand this is too advanced for you or it's like, oh, he doesn't get XML or whatever. Like no, Dave kind of gets everything, he gets the people, and the burden of proof is on you to explain why the technology is going to help the people. I kind of had it backwards, I'd like to tell people that I'm a recovering software engineer. You're never fully cured, but you try to make amends, you try to redeem yourself over time. In hindsight, these questions, these brain teasers, a lot of had been very, very, very good tests as to whether or not someone was a good algorithmic programmer. But the job you and I were doing, it had become very widespread at the company really wasn't programming at all.
Rob Collie (00:30:13):
Were these questions, good questions for the job that we did? I think in the final analysis, we all decided that they weren't, that these other questions were or better. To this day, this is really, really, really strong and powerful lesson for me, and it wasn't just that I learned it from you. I learned it from my own experience as well throughout all of this was that when you're interviewing, you have to do the work, as an interviewer, you have to construct an interview question or a set of interview questions that simulate the actual job that people are going to have to do. There's no point being fancy about it, and trying to divine it from all kinds of other little clever things around the edges. Just go straight at the thing that they actually have to do, and design a good test for that. That has been one of the crucial ingredients in our company today is our interview process, our screening process.
Rob Collie (00:31:09):
It very much derives from this philosophy that I was already kind of working on when you and I had that fateful encounter, but it was a real sharp turning point that day. I'm grateful for that, because it steered me in a different direction. By the time I ended up reporting to you, I think I'd already sort of worked those demons out.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:28):
You guys are walking around one thing that you haven't gotten to yet. And what's the origin story with you two? How'd you come to work together, and how's Rob end up reporting to you Dave?
Rob Collie (00:31:37):
Is pretty much accident, right?
Dave Gainer (00:31:40):
Yeah. It's like everything just stuff happens, and it ends up. Rob and I both ended up at Microsoft through very different route. Rob you're hired right out of university, right?
Rob Collie (00:31:50):
That's right, yeah.
Dave Gainer (00:31:51):
Sorry, I'm being Canadian again. You're hired at college.
Rob Collie (00:31:55):
Yeah, I translated.
Dave Gainer (00:31:55):
Yeah. But they are universities. So like maybe at some other part of this podcast, you can explain why there are universities, but you go to college, I've never bothered to figure that out. Anyway, I came in a much more secure to route. We ended up just sort of working in the same group, and over time the kind of things we're working on intersected, and at some point. What I don't remember is if you join the team, maybe you're a lead and they stop building the product you're working on, put you on the Excel team as a lead or something like that.
Rob Collie (00:32:20):
So you'd been in charge of the SharePoint less control in the same release where I was in charge of that beautiful XML integration into Excel, that just feels so natural and everyone uses it. And yeah. Okay. And so for some reason, the powers that be were really impressed with your work and not so impressed with mine, and so they put you in charge of Excel. I had no ambition or hope, I wasn't expecting to be in charge of Excel, so that's more just a joke. But it puts you in charge of Excel, and then for some reason, and this boggles my mind to this day, given my performance up until that point, everyone came to me and said, "Hey, we want you to be in charge of the BI features as a lead, not as a group program manager, which is what you are." But they wanted me to lead the BI features, and looking back, I'm like, why would they have picked that version of me? I can understand picking today's version of me, or even a version of me three or four years later.
Rob Collie (00:33:17):
But that version of me, I feel like there just weren't enough bodies around or something, like I was way too raw. Do you remember any of this?
Dave Gainer (00:33:26):
Yeah. Well, I remember being pulled off of that SharePoint effort a bit early because they wanted somebody to go. At the time our boss had gone and signed up with analysis services folks and said, Excel should do more in the BI space. So I got plucked off early and got told, go think about this and try and figure out how the Excel match will be made. And so I whiled away on that for like six months, and some point we hired Alan Faulting, and I don't know if you joined us before or after that?
Rob Collie (00:33:53):
I hired Alan.
Dave Gainer (00:33:54):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:33:54):
I interviewed people for a long time for that job and was actually reaching the point of frustration where I'm like, "Maybe I'm holding my bar too high, I need somebody, maybe I need to lower my standards." And that at that moment, Alan walked in the door and like, oh yeah, this is why we hold our standards high is because of Alan.
Dave Gainer (00:34:15):
Another thing I want to say Rob, besides the fact that you have an exceptionally well done podcast is, how to totally impressed I am at what you have gone and done post your career at Microsoft, and I sort of told you this briefly in a text a couple months ago. Holy smokes, it's one thing to have a job and do all the things you did at Microsoft, then you ended up participating in some pretty important stuff, but then you went and built a company from scratch that's big and amazing and forward leaning. That's amazing, I'm super impressed, you'd done a tremendous job. So nice work on the podcast, but really nice work, building a thing from scratch, because I don't think that's easy and I don't think most of us could do that. I look at that and say, boy, I'm not sure I would have the moral fortitude to even give that a whirl. I can get at some things, but I'm not sure I'd be good enough at a bunch of things to do that, so nice work.
Rob Collie (00:35:01):
Well, thank you. It turns out that even I wasn't good enough to do that. You probably listened to the Callen episode, it's one of the things I now tell new hires is to remind them that a single human being in the woods is wolf food, we're just like the most helpless thing on the planet. You get five of us together and you sharpen some sticks, and suddenly the wooly mammoth goes extinct. We are such a collaborative virus, the whole rugged individualism thing or all that no, that's all myth. It's always team, it's always how well you work with others, and it's who you have on your team. I feel fortunate I stayed in the zone long enough to find people that helped me figure it out.
Dave Gainer (00:35:49):
Have you ever read Sapiens?
Rob Collie (00:35:51):
I've read half of Sapiens, which is about my batting average for any non-fiction book, by the way. It like 50% is the new 100% for me when it comes to non-fiction books.
Dave Gainer (00:36:01):
Yeah, somewhere in the first couple chapters, part of the point he makes is sort of the point you're making, which is, there's a chapter where he talks about why are humans different from many other species? And it was the ability to organize themselves around stories, like that was the unique thing. And so, I think you could extend your metaphor there are around like wolf food and packs of five to say it's really about storytelling. I think that you might even think about this one as a work thing, because I was anticipating, maybe Rob will ask me some of the things that I think have helped me be good at this role when I started out as an English student and what does English students do? Well, they read complex of literature, it's funny. I had a prof that used to say, "There's fiction and there's literature, and you shouldn't mistake the two." I'll leave it to the podcast listener to figure that one out.
Dave Gainer (00:36:47):
And they try and figure out what that means and wrap their head around complex ideas, and then you have to write papers that sort of take them and simplify them and make your own point. It's about communication, taking in complexity and making it simple, and also storytelling. Not in the way of the kind of stuff that you might see on a YouTube video, but it's about rallying people around ideas. I think that's actually been super important in my time at Microsoft in the sense that a lot of I end up doing is reframing things for people, and how you talk about it. And so I think there's something there that goes beyond just five people in the woods getting together, or I think it's how they relate to each other, and the stories they tell. I bet if you do some thinking about you as a leader, even though it's memes and movie quotes and very different, because I tend to be much more dry and dusty about these things.
Dave Gainer (00:37:31):
But I bet there's an aspect to that, which is how does Rob pull things together or maybe see that outing some of the other people in your company, I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:37:38):
Storyteller is honestly that's how I was raised, both of my grandfathers were slash are consummate storytellers, those formative years, I grew up with that. Here's a movie quote for you, and get shorty John Travolta's character goes out to LA, he's a mafia soldier. A little bit later in the movies, like he tell someone I'm in the movie business now. And they're like, "You've been here five minutes, you've been a mobster your whole life." He goes, "Yeah, but I was never that into it." And that's kind of how I feel in some ways about my software career. I was struggling, dog paddling a bit for those first gosh, like five years at Microsoft, which is kind of when you and I intersected. I had no idea what my place was, again, I wasn't really into it. I kind of knew that I wasn't really into it, and I was trying to fake it all the time. I learned a whole new way of looking at the world and way of looking at the job, by working with you.
Rob Collie (00:38:39):
Also imposter syndrome, another one of these really big themes that it's true at our company, it's true on this podcast, we're talking about all the time. Through your eyes I got to slowly see that some of the people that I thought were heroes or the people to emulate actually were doing a lot of harm. Even though, they were really smart. Most of them were smarter than I was and ever will be, they weren't modulating their behavior properly, they weren't being disciplined enough. And so I kind of reinvented myself on your watch, and I didn't expect that. I thought I was going to change you, it shows you how stupid and naive I was like, you're the most stubborn person I've ever met.
Dave Gainer (00:39:19):
My wife would concur with it, I'm one of the most stubborn people you've ever met. I think one of the most important things I do when I come into the job every day is help the people around me develop and have more impact, it's not all managing. I think this is a place where if you came and work for me now, it would be very, very different experience, since I've grown up a lot as a leader too. But a lot of it is coaching, skill forming, asking questions because that's how you get more out of your folks. At the end of the day, I've been given a bunch of people to go make customers more successful, that's sort of the core of my job. And so a big part of it is how do we put those people in the right conditions, how do we build the right culture and how do we get out of their capabilities. That involves making sure they're getting self- actualization, and learning and doing things that are interesting.
Rob Collie (00:40:03):
I'm sitting here realizing yet again, first of all, how fortunate I was into crossing paths with you, but also like kind of like everyone deserves this fair shake. Looking back at our interactions before we worked together, I look back and go, "Really?" You had plenty of data on me, things that I look back on and go, oh man, those are not smart things that I was doing. It's very clear to me, I wasn't demonstrating the kind of excellence that I wish I was. But for you to see through that and go, ah, look at the raw material there. I don't think most people can do that, I don't think most people are capable of separating those two things. You've got all of this surface level signal that sort of dominates the field, it dominates the field of vision. I'm positive people were referring to me as a bozo, like behind the scenes, and you saw something different and we're patient and helped me develop. That is not management, that's leadership, that's development.
Rob Collie (00:41:01):
That's being a good human and holy cow, we need more of that. How do you go about getting to know the people on your team and adapting your approach? Even back then, the two thousands, I noticed you handling people on your team, it was like, you were a different manager for each of us. You did absolutely fit and morph how you handled people, do you have a methodology there? Or how do you go about all that?
Dave Gainer (00:41:29):
No, I don't have a methodology, that's kind of a funny word even bring up in the context.
Rob Collie (00:41:33):
You're Mr. Methodology.
Dave Gainer (00:41:35):
I'm going to open the webpage and look at instruction at five dash seven to see how to like deal Rob Collie.
Rob Collie (00:41:40):
Okay. Philosophy approach.
Dave Gainer (00:41:42):
Well, so it goes back, like again, what is our job as leaders? We're given this pool of assets that in the case of software, as some combination of existing brand and customers, but people. And so your job's to get the most out of those assets you can, for the benefit of the customer. I don't know this is something I was ever formally educated on, or again, if I have is lost in the missed the time. This is a discussion I have with a lot of people that work in our teams that are managers, which is, we're all individuals, we are trying to create an environment here where everybody can be their authentic selves at work. I think all it is, is saying like, boy, if I can meet Rob, where he is, as opposed to like asking Rob to snap, to my style and needs and personalities, A, we're going to do better in our communication interaction relationship. And Rob will feel like Rob can be Rob and that he's understood, and certainly a discussion I have with managers of my team from time to time.
Dave Gainer (00:42:39):
Go figure out the people on the team, spend time to try and understand them and what kind of communication style they have, what they're interested in all those things. And then the more that you can sort of adapt how you work with them to their world view and style, the better it'll be overall. I think it's just the philosophy I've always had.
Rob Collie (00:42:59):
You're a methodical person. What you just explained is essentially a very analytical way of looking at things, but without all of the coldness that usually goes with the word analytical. What truly matters?
Dave Gainer (00:43:14):
Yeah. I'm not analytical at all, I'm extremely intuitive. I know you're very analytical, because you come from a math and logic and philosophy background.
Rob Collie (00:43:23):
No, I'm also very intuitive, I'm not nearly the left brain thinker that I thought I was. I got through high school science and math based on raw intuition alone, and then when things started to get really dicey, like in Diffy Q and stuff like that, it turned out and I just didn't speak to me. Calculus one in high school, okay, that was kind of the limits of where intuition can take you. But I pressed blue on the personality test, the analytical, like I put that hat on when I came to work quite a bit.
Dave Gainer (00:43:51):
I pressed green on that thing, and so no one knows what these colors mean, the point being I'm centered in relationships. Some of this is just go put yourself in the position of that other person and then say, how would I like the world to unfold? And that's sort of my coaching to people is, just sit down in their chair. Because there's people that are going to show up and say, I'm all about the work. So I'm going to sit down and we're going to start the meeting, and it's going to be a whatever you're working on, feature, performance business case. And then you have people on the flip side that want to have relationships and understand those things, and if you can take people and say, think about how you would want to be treated in this interaction, then flip that around. And as leader, that's probably not a bad way to approach things of.
Rob Collie (00:44:30):
All the people I've with in my entire career, I've never worked with someone with as many clear principles as you. You have these guidelines, rules, you have so many of them. The word methodology or philosophy or whatever, I know it's difficult when you're just talking about what it's like to be you. You've always been you, a morphing and evolving version of yourself. But from the outside, I think it's a lot more striking as some of the things that make you different. Here are a few that I remember, ready for this? You've mentioned a bunch already, think about how your people would like to be treated and treat them that way. We could go through and put bullet points in like 11 of the things that you've said so far, tack them up on the whiteboard is like pearls of wisdom according to Dave. You're not trying to write a book, this is just how you operate. From back in the day when I worked for you, you had all kinds of things. So here's an example, make the easy thing easy to do. If there's a more complicated thing to in the software, they can climb the learning curve for that. But don't pollute the easy thing with the complicated thing, which of course, computer scientists only want to do it the other way, they want the "elegance". So for example, we were doing the conditional formatting dialogue, and it had been like a rules engine dialogue for years, and we were going to make that even more complicated. And you said, "Well, what about just selecting some cells and slapping a data bar format on that? Can't we just have like a button on the ribbon that does that, and then still have this rules dialogue." That was kind of groundbreaking for me, I took that principle with me. You had other ones, like if you have to decide between two features for the product, as far as you can tell, they're completely equal in value. Pick the one that's more visual, the one that lends itself to screenshots better. Because it's easier for people to see on the back of the box or whatever what the value of it is.
Rob Collie (00:46:29):
You had other principles, like let's not spread ourselves so thin and build 80% of a zillion different features, let's build cohesive features around common themes where when we're done, we can look at it and we can say, we're proud of it. There's even a test, like a validation for it at the end. I had never encountered someone at Microsoft really even since who's like that, now I've tried to be like that. I think people who work with me, if they're listening to this, they go, oh, that's where he got it. I'm doing this all the time, but all the time for me is like 20% the rate at which you do it. Whatever we want to call it, that's something that to me is very different about you, and different in a very valuable and positive way.
Dave Gainer (00:47:21):
Well, I appreciate the comments, I wrote down a few things as you're talking. One of my principles, and I don't have a pithy way of saying this is, everyone's an individual so like figure that out. And so you're saying the computer scientists did this, you're drawing this distinction. I've met probably in my life now thousands of computer scientists that were not like that, that were sort of super customer focused, I don't try and stratify the world. It sounds like there's computer scientists and then there's us, and I don't really see it like that. You know what I mean?
Rob Collie (00:47:47):
Just to clarify, I mean the person that identifies as a computer scientist, before they identify as a human, before they identify as a professional that's building software, those people exist. I kind of came from that factory, I was a little bit defective. It wasn't 100% with me, but that's kind of where I'd come from, originally.
Dave Gainer (00:48:09):
Some of this might just be hard wiring. I think even before I started go to university, I always just loved quotations. Maybe it's my version of like movies for you.
Rob Collie (00:48:17):
It is.
Dave Gainer (00:48:18):
If you go look at my bookshelf, I used to go buy books like Oxford's book of parables, and Oxford's book of quotations and I'd read it. I found a book the other day that I had university where I'd write down interesting quotations, since then move that to a doc where I've got all these things written down. And so I think there's just a part of my way, that's how my brain organizes things. I'd say to other things, I went through life learning from other people. There was this partner, the consulting company I started out with, he was awesome. This is back when PCs were just emerging, and you still did projections with actual overheads as opposed to PowerPoint plugged into things. But he had this binder, and we'd have these project reviews where we'd be like some giant project and we'd see how it's going. This binder was just full of slides that would have a picture, and a sentence on it, and he'd literally pull these things out and slap them up on the overhead at the right time.
Dave Gainer (00:49:05):
He'd throw it up, and it would say, "When you're in a hole, stop digging." That was his way of just getting the 50 people that were working on this project to sort of stop and say, okay, something's not going right, and you're thrashing and you're not really dealing with that, so how about we just press pause. So there's role models, and I think a lot of these things just developed over time is again, you see things and my philosophy is treat everything as a new situation and evaluate it for what it is. Maybe to tie these things together, so how do you motivate people to things differently? Well, you reframe it for them. I think a lot of these things is just reframing it in ways that hopefully are simple, and because they're simple or self evident that you can motivate some people to move in a different direction. This's another question I get is like, I want to become a manager someday or I'm a manager and I want to get better at it.
Dave Gainer (00:49:49):
A big part of my thing is then work for a lot of people, and pay very close attention to what they do. Because we all do things that are really, really good, and then we all do things that are less good me included. If you sort of make a study of that, you can pluck the pieces that are laudable and try and reemphasize the pieces that are less laudable, and that's going to develop you a ton.
Rob Collie (00:50:10):
That's something else that I trace back to sort of that era in my life is where it begins, is thinking of myself as the Borg from Star Trek, going from environment to environment, manager to manager, colleagues, coworkers, et cetera, and trying to harvest the best habits of the people around me, and add them to my repertoire. If in the end, you're just sort of like this collection of all the best things you've been exposed to, plus a little bit of your own secret sauce. And that's not a bad place to end up, that can be a very powerful thing, and it's worked very well for me. Of those principles, there's one that I use pretty frequently still. I don't think this is one that would've risen to the concept of principle for you, but there was a conversation, basically the gist of it was someone on the team was talking about, we could do it that way. We could solve that problem, we could make that feature work the way that you wanted it to, but it'd just be really, really, really complicated, be a lot of work. You said, again, snapshot moment.
Rob Collie (00:51:11):
You said something like, "Well, let me, let me tell you how this works. Customers trade us money for us to solve problems for them, we don't get to make our problems their problems, that's not how this relationship works." Do you remember saying that? Is that something you say frequently or was that a one off that I snapshotted have been parroting ever since?
Dave Gainer (00:51:33):
I don't know if I use that phrase a bunch, I read something a while ago that's sort of similar. I think it was off Twitter or something like this, but the comment was, the easiest companies to disrupt to the ones that put the needs of their strategy ahead of their needs of their customers. And so I don't say that to people that I think it's just a good way to frame, we've got to organize these things around customer success, not around what's personally valuable to us. In my role now, I'm trying to get a bunch of smart, creative people organized around making customers successful. We really try and actually use data for that. When you and I were PMs back in the day, we were hired to make could bunch of decisions in the absence of information. But when I was hired at the company, one of the very first things I always did is we did a bunch of customer research, because we needed to sort of understand how customers were using the product was working on.
Dave Gainer (00:52:21):
And so what did we do? We wrote out a bunch of questions, we typed them up, and then we printed off 10,000 copies and paid someone to put 10,000 copies in envelopes, and sent them out to the world, and we got about a thousand of them back. The internet was just sort of a thing that was coming along, and so that was the state of the art on how you collected information. So if that's the best information you have, you have to go find people like Rob and Dave that can take very complete information and try and figure things out, and design some things and ship them, and hope it works out. You've talked about you ship things, then you get feedback five years from now. Like that's not at all what we do anymore, and my joke is, it used to be our job was to try and figure out things because we had no information, now our job is not to do that.
Dave Gainer (00:53:03):
Because between the customer systems we've set up, the telemetry we have about what happens in the product, the way we build software, all that uncertainty is taken away. And you have real time feedback, and you know if what you're trying to do is succeeding. And so, it's less about evaluating features at my level and saying, hey, we have to go take the product its direction. Can you people spend a bunch of time in customers and figure out what we need to do and then start building some stuff, iterating, experimenting, and learning and get there. You had a podcast with Ken our MVP friend, I love all the podcasts, but there was part of that I felt really good about, because he talked about how customer focus the Excel team had become. It's not just the Excel team, it's sort of the way we do things these days. Which is, it starts with a customer it's focused on the customer, we collect data, we build these features, we get them out in early rings of validation, we watch very carefully what's happening.
Dave Gainer (00:53:56):
Quite often, our designs were not right and we pull them back in, change them or address them, we tweak them. Part of the exit criteria is people are successfully using it to do things they could not do before, the worlds just so different. I don't really have that anymore, partly because I play a different role in the company. I'm not doing those sort of things, but partly just because of the way we do things in software development these days doesn't even lend themselves to those sort of discussions as much.
Rob Collie (00:54:19):
Well, that's certainly better. But what's funny is that I think I'm very fortunate though that I worked at my Microsoft in the era of incomplete information, because most of the world isn't like that, most of the world doesn't have instrumentation. The software world, yes. Okay, great. Everything's gone instrumented in the software, but so much of the world, the information is always incomplete.
Dave Gainer (00:54:42):
Yap.
Rob Collie (00:54:43):
The training I got at Microsoft, like it was just crazy, like the pace we had had to move. You're making double digit decisions every day on how the product behaves, and those decisions largely stick and you don't have time to go commission a research project. The ability to extrapolate from principles and incomplete information and move fast has been a real credit it to me in the outside world, even as you're getting instrumented internally and not needing those skills as much. The bootcamp that I got in that 15 years that I was there has been incredibly valuable, outside the wire. Going back to that customers trade us money to solve problems, that is essentially the whole mission here at P3. I didn't know how broken the BI consulting industry was until I saw that it could be better. When I was goofing around with Power Pivot back in 2010, I didn't expect it to be that good. And then as I was using it, I'm like, just to write a blog, I was just trying to write a blog, I wasn't trying to discover the next great thing.
Rob Collie (00:55:53):
When I went, "Oh my God, look at all of the things that are broken in BI, and this fixes them," just down the line, the BI consulting industry has for years, forever, made all of the problems with their business model. All the problems with the software, all of it, has just always made it the customer's problem. The customer pays dearly for all of that. Our dangerous little idea here, you mentioned things, you weren't sure that they were going to work. You weren't even sure if you could solve the problem, even in a computing manner. We weren't really 100% sure we could do it, but we were sure that we were going to find out. We were stubborn about, can we take all those problems, solve them internally, insulate the customer from those problems, and deliver the best possible experience for the customer.
Rob Collie (00:56:43):
We have another set internally, which is it's really one that's mostly me, when I say we, which is just constantly saying the sports team that just won the super bowl, they're, "Nobody believes in us, nobody gave us a chance." Because we have had to absorb a lot of doubt, sometimes internal doubt. We've had people on the team over the years that turned out they didn't really believe in what we were doing, they just kept waiting for us to switch to the more traditional business model. Then those people aren't here anymore, I mean, they eventually voted with their feet. We've reached the point there's not really much limit to how we can scale, that's a crazy thing to say. As a professional services firm, we are not really sure that there's a max size for us and boy, what a gratifying process that has been. Again, in some small part, it traces back to you saying, "Oh no, no. Let me explain to you how this works."
Dave Gainer (00:57:40):
It's such a funny thing, because when you say that, I'm like, okay, you and I had this interaction at a time where it all made sense. But I can also imagine someone listening to this, like how is that insightful at all? It's this funny thing of course that's why companies exist. You guys have also had to iterate, adjust, react to feedback, try things, they don't work you back up, you try other things. I feel like in some sense, if I get again ...
Dave Gainer (00:58:03):
... back up, you try other things. I feel like in some sense, if I yet again, philosophical on you, same process, different thing. You're trying to build a company, but you're trying to build a company that's very customer centered at its heart and iterating your way there and being very clear about what the measurements are and what success looks like, right?
Rob Collie (00:58:17):
That's true. We're much more on the monthly cadence than the multi-year cadence. We don't have an official monthly milestone of where we remake the company every month or something like that, but there's been a lot of trial and error and refinement and evolution. And looking back on it, it's one of the most gratifying things that you can do is to operate that way and grow that way, as opposed to the old, every three years, we'd make a huge guess and an incomplete effort at that at the way things should be.
Rob Collie (00:58:49):
So those principles of yours, the things that you say that we use to guide things, now those were sentences that no one would ever disagree with them, right? There's an art to this, which is, people might hear that sentence and go, "Well, that's just dumb. That's just the simplest thing ever. I can't imagine that being all that effective or useful", right? But that's the thing. That is it. That is exactly the spirit of it that I learned, which is, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of things that you can say about how you should be going about your business that all sound right. And maybe they all are right. And none of them sound like genius or rocket science, right? But knowing which ones of those simple statements are actually really important to follow and which are the ones that you can not pay attention to, is a tremendously important art.
Rob Collie (00:59:44):
Nothing in the end needs to sound like it was super smart, and yet the smart is figuring out which of those things needs the bold button pressed. And again, this is something I have tried to emulate everywhere I have gone since then. Something else I'm "[borging 00:02:05]" from you. If there's value in this for you, it's just hearing a deeply observational person. I am an observational human being, right? I studied you under a microscope all those years, whether you knew it or not.
Dave Gainer (01:00:16):
I didn't realize I was studied that carefully.
Rob Collie (01:00:19):
It really was good news for me that I didn't really have a choice but to take you seriously. I mean, you are my manager, right? So you can't succeed if you and your manager aren't aligned on at least some important core principles. And if every idea, every plan that you have for things that you are going to do in the product, if they have to go through a certain person for approval, well, you better get good at communicating with and anticipating what that person is going to... what their reactions are going to be. The thing I wanted to highlight though, is that the principles that you fall in, in your business, if you're doing it right, they never sound like obscure, mystical genius. That's not how it is. If you're looking for that, you're looking in the wrong place. You need to find the simple things that you can all get behind and you can't pick everything.
Rob Collie (01:01:10):
It's a prioritization between those things that you can use to guide yourself. We also had a really bad habit back in the day of, whenever we were talking about features and capabilities, we would always formulate it as a yes, no question. Should we add this to the product? And by formulating it as yes, no, we were already baking in friction and failure, because by the time something got to the point where we were asking that question, it was a good enough idea that the answer was probably yes.
Rob Collie (01:01:41):
As simple as it sounds, you broke me and I think a lot of other people like me, of that habit and got us much more into the, "No, no, no, no, no. Not yes, no. We get so many things to do and we have to rank them against each other". And that's the question, is it more valuable than this other thing? Not, yes no. Very, very, very simple. Again, you have no idea to what degree that has successfully impacted in a positive direction everything I've done since then. I describe to people a lot of times like, "Hey, you know what? I'm really just a gainer franchise".
Dave Gainer (01:02:21):
I don't know if franchise is the right word. You're going to have to come up with another word.
Rob Collie (01:02:26):
All right.
Dave Gainer (01:02:26):
Because I was your manager, so I'm willing to-
Rob Collie (01:02:28):
Affiliate.
Dave Gainer (01:02:28):
I'm willing to accept that I have some responsibility for how you developed as a person. When we spent time together, I couldn't do a podcast like this. I don't think I could have gone and built the business you built, and so like, sorry, but it's more complex than that.
Rob Collie (01:02:41):
How about this? I was your student. I think that's a good way to put it. In the same way that Mark Cuban was Wayne Winston's student. Like, I don't think Mark Cuban is a Wayne Winston franchise, but he was a student.
Dave Gainer (01:02:57):
Oh, I didn't realize that was the tie.
Rob Collie (01:02:59):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:59):
Oh, yeah.
Dave Gainer (01:03:00):
Okay, interesting. Did I miss that? Because I listened to that podcast. Did you guys talk about that or is... I don't remember that.
Rob Collie (01:03:05):
Now that came out in Twitter after the fact when Tom tagged Mark.
Dave Gainer (01:03:09):
Oh, okay.
Rob Collie (01:03:10):
So apparently Mark sneaked into Wayne's class when he wasn't allowed to be there yet. Freshmen weren't allowed in his class, but Wayne let him stay. That left an impression, I think. Okay. So I didn't know at the time we crossed paths, that I needed the type of input that I was going to get from you. Your style of looking at the world and the way that you mentor people and the way that you try to get people to sort of align their thinking and help them be effective, it was the first and maybe the last time that I've encountered someone with your style, and it made a profound impact on me. And again, I didn't expect it. I just thought, "Hey, this is going to be another stop on my tour of managers that I have to listen to".
Rob Collie (01:03:57):
Yeah, I was young. So if I can try to characterize it for people who are listening, which is awkward, because I'm talking about someone who we're interviewing at the same time, but there was never anything that masqueraded as advanced or magical or some super intelligent thing, right? And there was a lot of that in my career up until that point. I had experienced a lot of the other kind of deliberately mystical type of leadership. All that faded away working with you and it came down to a bunch of really simple ideas and simple sentences that, if you take them out of context, no one would think they were all that valuable. You'd be like, "Well, like of course". Almost everything I learned from you, if I just tell people one of those things, they go, "Yeah, duh. Of course it's like that", right?
Rob Collie (01:04:54):
But then I go, "Yeah, that's not the thing though. What's really important here is that this principle, if you follow it, it really makes a difference. It's one of those simple things that everyone's going to agree with when they hear it, and yet no one lives by it", right? And when you go about picking these things and living by them and acting according to them, it changes your entire life. It's crazy. That's got to be a little awkward to hear you summarized to you. "It's not for you, Dave. I'm summarizing it for the audience". Okay? So it's all good.
Dave Gainer (01:05:31):
Well, one thing I used to say to you all the time was, "Perception's a reality". So you can summarize me however you want, because it's your perception.
Rob Collie (01:05:38):
Okay. Hold on. I just said to everybody that there wasn't any mystical shit and then you come out with perceptions of reality. It's like, "Oh God". You're like the Sphinx from Mystery Men suddenly. Come on, try to stay on brand, Dave.
Dave Gainer (01:05:55):
Sorry about that, Rob. It's definitely a lot easier to say things than do them. Every company in the world will say, "We need to be customer focused or be customer obsessed". There's a very wide range of actual realities with all those companies saying the same thing, and so I think one thing that's always been important is be clear about what you're doing as a group, as a team and in individual, and then go really focus in doing that. Articulation and principles have to be the same as outcomes and it's very easy for that kind of stuff not to happen.
Dave Gainer (01:06:28):
My time at Accenture, they had lots of wonderful training programs. One of their lines was, "Think straight, talk straight", right? Like go look at things, see them for what they are, sort it out, write a course of action and then do that. No drama, no fuss, no muss, and I think some of that probably rubbed off on me anyway. Some of that probably fit in with the worldview I already had. And I think a lot of the interactions you and I had when we were working together were very much in that matter of speaking, right?
Rob Collie (01:06:53):
Yeah. Oh absolutely. Even some of my most crushing defeats. Yeah, anyway. We don't have to go into that. It's such a hard thing to summarize. You gave me a guide, a how-to, a kit, but it wasn't a kit that I of followed to turn into all of those things that I had struggled with. It was a kit to go and be like an authentic version of myself with very grounded principles and not worrying about trying to act the part. I had been trying to act the part of a Microsoft software engineneer, and it turns out that's kind of silly because that's a million different people. There isn't such a thing, right? First go be the best version of yourself is probably a good place to start, and I wasn't doing that.
Dave Gainer (01:07:47):
Certainly the most satisfying things I do when I manage or lead people, and I also think it's an important aspect of leadership, is helping people grow and self-actualize. And everybody's different and everybody has some different set of skills and experiences and behaviors and background that they bring forward. And I think the more we can create environments that they can just be that person and that they can have sort of the confidence to do it, the results for them, whoever their customers are, whatever company they're working for, are going to be that much better. And so I have historically spent lots of time on that, working with people. To me, that's every bit as important as, "Hey, let's talk about the product strategy", or, "Let's talk about the latest competitive move", or what have you, right? Because I'm not going to do everything. I'm just a person.
Dave Gainer (01:08:35):
There's a bunch of people I work with on my team and the more that they can be amazing at what they are and who they are and what they do, that's where the leverage comes in. And you know this now, right? Because you're in charge of a company and it's big and you were saying, "This thing could scale endlessly". The real problem to getting to scale is getting a bunch of human beings that are sort of effective, and there's one playbook, which is hire herds of young people out of university and send them to 12 or 16 weeks of training so they all sort of become the same. The army bootcamp model.
Dave Gainer (01:09:03):
Or the other model is just help people embrace who they are and their talents. And I think that if you and I had done this podcast 10 years ago, I don't even know if I had the self-awareness to be talking about it like this. Another thing that I found is I've become much more cognizant about what I'm doing. I think a lot of it I was doing anyway, but the whole philosophy behind it and the intentionality of it is much more now so than it was back when you were a manager and I was your boss and we were just figuring things out together.
Rob Collie (01:09:28):
That's astounding because I think that younger version of you is the most intentional person I've ever known. So you're like, "Oh yeah, I was really amateur back then. I've really gotten intentional now". Like, "Ooh, I need to come do an executive internship or something, I think, just to check this out. I got to see what this looks like".
Dave Gainer (01:09:48):
Well, I think this is where your background comes into it, right? Part of this is DNA, I think. And part of it just your background and other influences. Like our family has a share of characters like any family, but I got super lucky. I have two amazing parents and they did the most important things right. They let me pursue the things that were interesting, but they always had my back, right? It was sort of this, "We trust you, we respect, but we let you explore". But the other thing is, they were just incredibly good role models. They're honest to a fault, they're both super hard working. They sort of taught us, "Do the right thing, even if it sucks", and I think that's a big part of some of these themes.
Rob Collie (01:10:24):
Did you listen to the episode we did with Lori Rodriguez, who at the time was with Gartner?
Dave Gainer (01:10:30):
I'm about a third of the way through that one.
Rob Collie (01:10:31):
That was a long one because she and I just took off. I think Tom had to go at some point. We ran for like another hour. We talk about the movie Ratatouille and there's this tension in the movie Ratatouille, between the chef that inspired the rat in the first place to cook. And the chef was famous for saying, "Anyone can cook". And then there's this critic, this food critic, very snobby food critic, who plays the villain for like nine tenths of the movie, and he thinks this is just preposterous, right? Anyone can cook. That's just silly. There's clearly a difference between good cooks and bad cooks, right? And in the end, without you ever expecting it, they resolve this tension with a modified version, which is, "A chef can come from anywhere". I'm going to spin this, right? A leader can come from anywhere.
Rob Collie (01:11:24):
I don't think everyone's a good leader, right? Like we can look around and see plenty of bad leaders, right? Or people that you can't imagine ever being a good leader. We have the ability to differentiate between good leaders and bad leaders, right? There's clearly a difference, but their origin stories... You shouldn't expect the origin stories of good leaders to be somehow homogeneous. There's two or three different themes I'm sort of messing around with in my head for this interview. One of them is again, look at your background.
Rob Collie (01:11:55):
Like mine, it's very, really funny. We just talked about how intentional you are, but as a youngster, it was more like wandering the earth, like Caine from Kung Fu, right? I'm the same way. I didn't go to grad school because there weren't any checks in my checkbook when I got to the front of the line to take the test, and I'm like, "Well, okay. Well, must be getting a job then".
Dave Gainer (01:12:19):
Are you serious about that?
Rob Collie (01:12:20):
I am totally serious about that. I got to the front of the line. I'm like, "Well, there's that Florida Auburn game on today. I clearly was meant to be there instead". So I chalked it up to fate. I didn't want to take that test anyway. That test sucked.
Dave Gainer (01:12:34):
That is awesome. As different as we are, and we're pretty different in a lot of ways, I think we share that similarity. Because the reason I ended up in an MBA school, as opposed to doing like a master's degree in History, is I didn't get around to finishing the application for the history degree on time so I just never mailed it in.
Rob Collie (01:12:48):
Yeah. I mean, it is kind of a test of whether you really care, right? Like, did you really want it? You can't even fill out the application. Same with me, right? I couldn't be bothered to register for this exam or whatever. The GRE or whatever.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:03):
G [inaudible 01:13:03].
Rob Collie (01:13:03):
I couldn't register for it in advance. I had to do the walk-in and I get to the front and I don't have any checks. I'm like, "Mm, whatever. No big deal". So there went my promising career in operations research that I didn't even understand what that meant. It just seemed like it was a good fit for all the stuff I'd been studying and enjoying at the time. So never got to find out what OR really is about. There you go. There's the path not taken. Hey, you and I played hockey together. There's another thing we did together. We ended up on hockey teams together. If I describe two things to you that they will sound mathematically identical. To the really logical, left brainy analysis, they will sound identical. When you're going to shoot and try to score a goal in hockey, you can try to aim the puck around the goalie, right? You can try to aim the puck in a way that it avoids the goalie, or you could aim the puck in a way that tries to hit the open net. Now these are, in some sense, identical statements, but in practice, there are all the difference in the world. You have to shoot for the net. You have to shoot for the open net. The reason I'm using this metaphor is that everyone brings their own quote, unquote, strengths and weaknesses, to the table. You can talk about mitigating your weaknesses, or you can talk about leveraging your strengths.
Rob Collie (01:14:17):
What I have found is that leaning into your strengths, you can't ignore your weaknesses. You got to work on those, but you can't go through life just trying to be the absence of these downsides that you might bring. The old saying, "You go to war with the army you've got".
Dave Gainer (01:14:30):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:14:31):
Today, you lean into the strengths of the people that you have, right? Rather than trying to homogenize them all with a bootcamp, right?
Dave Gainer (01:14:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:14:41):
But when you end up with the smaller teams that run for years and years, like at Microsoft, you have the opportunity to do it the other way.
Dave Gainer (01:14:48):
Oh, totally. And I think probably when you and I worked together... I don't know if we ever explained that. There was a moment in time where I became the person responsible for... like the Head of Product for Excel, and Rob was a manager on the team, and that was the first time. We'd sort of bumped into each other in the hallway, but I think that was the first time it ever dawned on me that I was now in a job so big, I couldn't actually pay attention to all the details.
Dave Gainer (01:15:11):
That was probably the first point in my mind that was formalized is, "Boy, I need a lot of clever people and we need to make sure they have structure and direction, but it's up to them to be great". I can't go waiting and spend time with Rob and everyone on Rob's team and then we'd had another need-lead named Charlie. And it was too many of them. Too many ideas flying around. And so that's part of where I really figured out my job is to help make sure Rob's being as great as he can, because that's actually what's going to make the product great and give the customers what they need. And that's about me growing and supporting Rob.
Rob Collie (01:15:44):
Was that your first time being a manager of managers or had you had previous experience with that?
Dave Gainer (01:15:50):
I had been a manager of managers at Accenture and then when I joined Microsoft, I went back to just being an individual contributor. And I think because I had management experience, it was easier to head back up the hierarchy, but it's just a different job. At Accenture, your job's to make sure everything's perfect, so you do spend your days... Or at least many years ago when I was there, a large of it was waiting through all the details in a product like Microsoft Project or something like that, to make sure everything was perfect. But it was just a very, very different world.
Rob Collie (01:16:15):
You say that that was the time when you realized that you couldn't track all the details. It's funny though, I remember, boy, did you want to. You had an amazing capacity and hunger to keep track of as much as you could. It was impressive. One of the jokes used to be, you always had an opinion. You could weigh in on almost anything, right? And you did. You were much more interested in the details of how that product worked than most, if not all the managers I had before or after. And yet at the same time, I understand... And I'm not saying you were wrong, that you didn't have to delegate. You did absolutely, but you were pretty good about establishing a framework. Did I ever tell you that in the end, a tremendous amount of the development that I got out of working with you, I got it while you weren't even around?
Rob Collie (01:17:07):
After a while, I could sit down and start role playing what you were going to say and I'd be like, "Okay, so I could just go through the process". Like I had this idea of how the product should work and I would sort of have my rough draft in my head. I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to go pitch this to Dave. What's he going to say? Oh, he's going to say that this is, oh, this, this and this. Dammit.", right? And so those thoughts wouldn't enter my head until I went through the process of switching around mentally and sitting in your chair and saying, "What's Dave going to say? What was Dave Gainer going to say?". There's this sort of exploit in the AI world where, if you've got an algorithm that is highly tuned for something but it's got a published API, you can use that published API and feed it a whole bunch of input and use it to train your own clone of that API, right? Of the AI behind the scenes, right?
Rob Collie (01:18:02):
I kind of think that's what I did, is that I used the Dave API to train this other part of my brain that apparently had been used for Minesweeper or something up until that point. These were uninitialized neurons. I had more capacity. And so I end up carrying this miniature Dave around with me and the funniest part is that I'm sure every now and then, you would say something and I'd go, "That's not what Dave would say at all". I do vaguely remember cases like going, "Oh, come on. That is so not you. That's not... You're supposed to say X, Y, Z".
Dave Gainer (01:18:47):
We talked at some point about principles, right? And the use of principles to guide things. I think part of why I was big on that and I remain big on that is, how do you motivate a bunch of human beings in some common direction without telling them what to do, right? Principles are a super effective technique for doing that. Part of it is how do I get Rob, and I don't know how many people you had working for you. Let's say four, and then Charlie and his five and [Cordell 01:19:10] and his three. That's a lot of people. So how do you get them thinking the same way without telling them what to do? Because I'm very much against that.
Dave Gainer (01:19:18):
You lay out principles that are either rallying points or logical tests or the kind of things to consider. And then your job gets simpler and they have to talk to you less, and I think that's a win-win. And then serious thing, you have a better memory than me. So I don't remember the kind of details I drilled on probably nearly as much as you do, but even there what I would say, and I still tell people this, how do you choose what you spend your time on, Dave? You have a lot of things going on. My boss recently asked me, how do you prioritize your time? And he sort of expected I would go down by product, like the most important product first and the second most. And I was like, "No, no, no, no, no. You need to figure out enough of what's going on in your world and then build a heat map". I'm a very visual person, so even inside my head, when I look at stuff in my world, some of it's red, some it's green, some of it's orange.
Dave Gainer (01:20:05):
And then you go spend the time on the place where it's red, because the green stuff's going fine, and me injecting myself there is only going to mess it up. And so I think the story I'm going to make up retroactively, and you might say, "Well, that's not true", is that part of the technique is go figure out enough detail to know, "This is fine", or, "No, there's smoke here". In which case you, as a leader, want to spend time there. And if it's fine, then completely back off and let people do great work because you hire these people to do great work, and in general, they do. Do you see that in your world? You got a pretty big company these days?
Rob Collie (01:20:37):
Well, yeah. Five years ago it was really clear to me that this was something I got working with you. This is a skill that I had developed working with you, that I did not have before and it is indispensable. We've both admitted to being very intuitive thinkers, and intuition is the type of thinking that doesn't happen in words. It's almost impossible to transmit an intuition across people. It might be an amazing insight, but it is the opposite of verbal. And I had gone through my whole life being what I thought was very effective, with that style of thinking without of course realizing that's what I was, right?
Rob Collie (01:21:20):
I had no idea that that was the kind of thinking I did, because it was all I ever knew. And running into you, you kept... You bastard. You just kept insisting that I transmit my reasons for thinking something through the air, to your ears, right? I was really flustered at the beginning. I'm like, "No, that's not how this works". You see, I know what the right thing is and you're like, "Why?", and I'm like, "Ah". I was at a loss, right? And I was talking about, I would role play Dave in my head. Well, of course it was a lot easier for me to role play you when you were transmitting these principles. You were taking the time to digest your intuitions and put them into little tiny digestible, transmittable... You were translating them from Dave intuitive speak into English that could go from brain to brain and trigger a similar sort of thinking on the other side.
Rob Collie (01:22:26):
It turns out, that's a lot of work if you've never done it. And you weren't mean about it, but you were not going to let me get away with saying, "Trust me". That wasn't going to work. You did trust me. It wasn't like that, but if you wanted to know why I couldn't look at you and go, "Oh, it's just... Just trust me", right? And so in the course of those few years, I learned to sort of retroactively inspect my own intuition, backtrack along that thought process, and extract the words out of it, turn it into a sentence. It's almost like being a historian for your own thought process and summarizing it and then be able to transmit it across. And I take this for granted now. It is so second nature. It's effortless now, and it's just this conversation that reminds me, that in my mid to late twenties, this was anything but effortless.
Rob Collie (01:23:28):
In fact it was alien. I couldn't do it at all. It's like not being able to stay on your feet on ice skates versus playing hockey. I couldn't even keep my balance at this particular skill, and I do this all the time. We're having some discussion about how we should operate or whatever. Whatever business issue we're discussing or new service or whatever that we're discussing at our company, I still have the same intuitive thought process. It's still the same things, right?
Dave Gainer (01:23:58):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:23:59):
But I can now transmit. I can transmit why, and by transmitting why, you actually help other people, first of all, get on the same page with you. You might even be wrong. Your intuition might actually be wrong, and if you can transmit your reasons clearly, you can help figure out whether or not you're wrong. Whereas if you can't transmit and you're in charge, oh my gosh, you're just always going to do what you think. You're going to win all ties. I would actually say it's the most important thing that I developed working with you by far and the second place isn't even close.
Dave Gainer (01:24:36):
And it's funny, we're clearly wired the same way. Companies have you do these psychological profiles like Myers Briggs and Insights and stuff to help you understand yourself and understand those around you, and I remember in one of those, probably the Insights one, there's some text that describes you. A line that I read that I thought that's perfect, which was, "Dave will often experience thoughts much more intensely than he can describe them in words", right?. I remember thinking how weird it is they figured that out about me based on whatever questionnaire I'd done and how true that was, right? Because I'll sit in these meetings and think, "Bam! I have this thing in my head and I just can't get it out in time". I have a very slow-twitch brain and I've had to train all my managers. Quite often when we come back to 30 minutes after a meeting and discussion with what I actually think about it, because I just can't do it in the real time.
Dave Gainer (01:25:22):
You think about, "Okay, where did I get that from? Why was I there before you?". I don't really know the answer because it wasn't like if he went and found Dave in high school, he was like this, but I think a lot of where I got this from was writing a lot of English and History papers, which I find hard to this day. I find writing incredibly challenging, even though I have a whole degree in it, but it's sort of this training of read complex stuff, summarise it, get it in explainable principles, and then communicate it. And practice, practice, practice.
Dave Gainer (01:25:49):
So when I did that for four years and wrote I don't how many, like 50 papers, I emerged the other side, having trained my brain to some degree to say, "Here's how I take a thing and communicate it to others in a way that's summarized enough that they can understand what I'm doing". And so it's another example of, "Huh, what makes a good leader?". Well, I don't know. Any background can be drawn upon. Leadership isn't a course you take. It's not a degree at school. It's also probably very circumstantial, like that one just happens to be good for the kind of work we do.
Rob Collie (01:26:16):
When you said Dave often experiences thoughts, and what was it? More powerfully than he can put into words or whatever, right? I'm just nodding vigorously here. That's absolutely me, right? And it was so frustrating for so long to be on an island with those thoughts and no ability to communicate. No ability to share them. No ability to even, heck, get validation or invalidation. Gosh, that's where you found me. You know the slow-twitch brain thing? I often describe my brain as a very, very, very unsophisticated engine, right? It'd be like a 1960s-
Dave Gainer (01:26:51):
426 Hemi.
Rob Collie (01:26:52):
Yeah. 426 Hemi, right? It's got a lot of displacement. It's not high tech, it's not optimized. None of that. It's just brawn. I had before-
Rob Collie (01:27:03):
None of that. It's just brawn. I had before crossing paths with you. One thing I had learned as a technique, a coping mechanism at work was to, in a meeting, I would say, Hey. I'm not sure about this. I do need some time to think about it. It won't be long. I'll circle back with you right? I won't be able to say all the things I need to say in response to what's happening in the meeting. I can't do it in real time but I do reserve some space to think about it and come back to you quickly. And before I discovered that trick, I just got steamrolled all the time right? Because if I couldn't get my thoughts out, the meeting would end and a conclusion would be drawn and it wouldn't benefit from what I had to contribute.
Dave Gainer (01:27:44):
And then you can invert that and say okay. Now Rob, you're a leader, Dave's a leader. What do you do with that information? This is why I'm such a believer of figuring out what people's authentic resting place is and making sure you understand them, making sure it's okay for them to be that and that they can plug into the system in the way that makes sense for them right? Because imagine if all your managers said, Rob. I understand how your brain works and I have these discussions with you. You would've been much more unleashed and comfortable earlier in your career. You wouldn't have had to figure it out yourself. And so I'm a really big believer in trying to spend time talking to people that work for you about not work or customers or all those things, and that stuff will always be there but about these sort of things.
Dave Gainer (01:28:33):
What's the most effective way for Rob to participate in the collective work. This group of however many people are working on a product or project or trying to do. Because bringing that to the forefront and talking about it, legitimizes work styles, puts that person in a place where they can be much more effective. And this is an example when I say I'm a different human being than I was 10 or 15 years ago when we worked together. I stumbled through this with you but now it's much more of an active thing I manage right?
Thomas LaRock (01:28:59):
This is a great conversation that I think we could probably spend hours and days talking about development of people and managers. It reminded me, I have this blog post from 11 years ago, which is essentially, Where Have All The Good Managers Gone. Because you often only hear about how, I can't find talent. I can't find the people I need. I can't find a good DBA. I can't find the people... If I could only find that Power BI Expert then we'd really be doing something. And the point in the post is really, the problem is, there's no leadership. And I don't know if you guys have seen the Netflix series, The Movies That Made Us. They're in their second season. We've binged three or four or last night but one was just Jurassic Park. And you guys are talking about these managers and there's this great story.
Thomas LaRock (01:29:51):
Industrial Light and Magic have to make the dinosaurs. And it's 1995. You might be familiar. The levels of technology that existed in 1995. There's this guy at ILM who's like, "I think I can make a dinosaur look real computer animated." And the manager at ILM is like, "Don't you dare spend your time on that. We got a guy doing the stop motion and he's going to take care of all the dinosaur stuff for us. You are not to spend one moment of time on this." And so here to me, there's a manager, he's not encouraging his... He's like, "I'm here to execute orders. And the orders are stop motion." That's what Jurassic Park will look like. Done." So this guy's like, "Yeah. Well, F you. Because I think I can do it. I'm just going to working on it anyway."
Thomas LaRock (01:30:40):
And he's so great. If you watch this, I don't want to spoil it but he's like, "I've been suspended from ILM three times in my career and I proudly put that on my resume." He goes to work and he does it. And as the executive producer's coming through on a tour one day, he makes sure that he has the skeleton. There's no skin or whatever. It's just the computer animated thing just going across the screen in a loop. And she walks in and she's like, " What the hell is that?" And he's like, "Well, it's a dinosaur." And she's like, "This is amazing." Spielberg is there. And he goes... His mind's blown. He's like, "This is amazing." They turn to the manager and they're like, "Why didn't you tell us we had this?" And the guy's like, "Yeah. That's something we've been working on. And you'll like what we have there."
Thomas LaRock (01:31:26):
Meanwhile, he's looking at that guy like, "I can't believe you just did this to me." And as the words that were used, "this is political suicide. How dare you do what I told you not to do like this?" Meanwhile, Spielberg was like this movie's going to be amazing because now out we don't have to use that stupid stop motion stuff anymore.
Rob Collie (01:31:43):
It would've looked like Sinbad.
Thomas LaRock (01:31:45):
And so the idea of whether a person is a good leader, a manager and all that, everything that Dave's been talking about. I would say Dave is part of this minority when it comes to leadership and management and he's a blessing and I'm glad that Rob, you got to intersect with Dave during your time. I keep seeing other examples of where, for some reason, people rise to these levels but they're not really invested in making their people better. And I don't understand that because when you do, you make everything better for everybody. Not just you and them but your customers, the products. In this case, the movie. Jurassic park would've never been the same if not for this guy going, "yeah. I think I can make it look like a dinosaur that can walk." Although I have no idea how dinosaurs walk, that was another thing. He's like, "I've never seen a dinosaur walk. What does that look like?"
Rob Collie (01:32:35):
Tom is what I would call a rabid advocate for humanity. That's something that he brings with intensity pretty much to everything. It's absolutely a credit to you. But if you're listening, you almost now get in the picture that Dave Gainer is a radical. Which is actually the exact opposite. I'll give you an example. He had this radical idea Dave. Rather than sitting around and coming up with just things we should put into the product, why don't we go and look at the data that we have. Data. There's that word right? Look at the data that we have about places where we're getting support calls. What are the top 10 things that generate support calls? And we go look at the list like and we're like this is a really boring list. Says Rob, right?
Rob Collie (01:33:22):
Says untrained pre Dave, Rob, at the beginning of this process goes, "well, that's no fun at all. We're going to make printing better." Really? We're going to make printing better? And he was like, "Yeah. We're going to make printing better because that's what people are doing." And I remember saying, okay. That's great. Fine. But I want nothing to do with that because that's... But here's the thing, by the time that feature set was done, the improvements to printing in that particular release, I was able to look at it and go, you know what? That actually was a very interesting problem.
Rob Collie (01:33:57):
It was a very interesting problem and a very gratifying problem. And so I'm picking on myself at the beginning of that release. Really just to set up the punchline that at the end, that simplicity of doing the thing that actually was going to affect a lot of people and improve what they do was actually in a way, it was its own version of radical. There's this moment in Fight Club where Edward Norton says, "You know what? It all started to make a little bit of sense in the end." Something about letting that which does not matter truly slide and focusing on the things that do.
Dave Gainer (01:34:32):
Yeah. I don't know. Radical and Dave Gainer are not things that have been used together before this podcast.
Thomas LaRock (01:34:37):
They should be.
Rob Collie (01:34:38):
It's a quiet radicalism. It's a conformist radicalism.
Dave Gainer (01:34:42):
Here's how I'm going to prove this. That it's not radical. We're going to talk about the U.S. Army. And so there's this miniseries, Band of Brothers right?
Rob Collie (01:34:50):
Yeah.
Dave Gainer (01:34:50):
Many people have probably seen that. Turns out it's true. You might have read the book that it was based off and that's actually what happened. And the guy in charge of that, one of the main characters was Dick Winters. And at some point someone gives me a photocopy of a book he wrote where in the last page, is his 10 principles of leadership right? And so here we are, this is someone that was a paratrooper, the most elite or I guess one of the most elite things in the military, he went and fought his way across Europe, tough guy right? These are his leadership principles. Some of them sound more military than others. I'm looking at them right now because I actually have them taped up on my door.
Dave Gainer (01:35:22):
One is, lead from the front. Say, follow me. Lead from the way. There's one about staying in top physical shape. But then here let's talk about number four. Develop your team. If you know your people, you're fair in setting realistic goals and expectations and you lead by example, you will develop teamwork right? U.S. Military. And this isn't their formal doctrine but this is clearly so someone that's been successful. Number five, I love because this is one of these ones where I read it and said, yeah. That's my philosophy around how I work as a leader. Put into words, delegate responsibility to your subordinates and let them do their jobs. You can't do a good job if you don't have a chance to use your imagination and creativity. And so what I would say is, I don't think it's radical. I think it's what we're supposed to do as leaders.
Dave Gainer (01:36:01):
My job is to provide framing, direction, clarity of objectives, talk about resource allocation and then let talented people do their thing. And I need to have enough connective tissue. And this goes back to the principles that Rob and I talked about. But boy, if I can have Rob Collie working on how to make something better in my product as opposed to me because he's going to go do it full time and bring the full weight of his imagination. And if Rob's surrounded by some other talented people in product and design and whether our disciplines are involved, this be like 100 times better than what I'm going to do. And that's just like a fact.
Dave Gainer (01:36:32):
This is why this is my philosophy. Like number six, Rob, you'll enjoy this one. Anticipate problems and prepare to overcome obstacles. You and I talked about, I worry about everything. You were pruning the tree right? There's another good one. Seven, don't worry about who receives any credit. Never let power or authority go to your head. Number eight, take a moment of self-reflection. Look at yourself in the mirror every night and ask you if you did your best work.
Rob Collie (01:36:57):
Can I stop for a second?
Dave Gainer (01:36:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:36:58):
That last one. Never worry about the credit, power, et cetera.
Dave Gainer (01:37:01):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:37:02):
I run into a lot of people who think that leadership is about getting your orders followed. Leadership is the act of being listened to. Because I think that's a lot of people's initial impressions of it. If you're going to be in a leadership position, the first thing you need to do is get over that concept of it. Because it's toxic, and its self-defeating, it is not going to help you. It is a very common default for sure.
Thomas LaRock (01:37:30):
Look at that.
Rob Collie (01:37:31):
I have a list of paradoxical commandments of leadership. When Dave may mentioned... This is a little more formal military but it's just so funny because when you started saying those, I'm like, I wonder if there's overlap on these. But these are things like, the good you will do today will be forgotten tomorrow. Do good anyway. I've had this posted I don't know how many years now. It's just so funny he mentioned that he had something posted there.
Dave Gainer (01:37:54):
Does it say the best plan is often to do nothing? I'm just kidding.
Rob Collie (01:38:01):
No. It doesn't.
Thomas LaRock (01:38:01):
Does it say until you master your fear, your fear will be your master?
Rob Collie (01:38:04):
No.
Thomas LaRock (01:38:05):
Something like that. Which is another line from Mystery Men by the way. Dave, there is a positive connotation to the word radical. Let's say you're not radical. Being a member of your team was not being radical. However, it absolutely did feel revolutionary. There's a lot of positive connotations to these words that I experienced working in this system. Working in this mindset. You're not doing something crazy. There's no crazy there right? It's just doing things that make sense. And that oftentimes when it's galvanized and energetic and organized, takes on a lot of that feel that gets people excited. And I didn't expect that right? I didn't expect overhauling the printing experience to feel that way. I agree that radical and Dave Gainer don't belong in the same sentence really but there's other part of it. There's certain portions, they're certain flavors that are mixed in there in that word. Some of them absolutely do. It was really cool.
Dave Gainer (01:39:11):
Let me take a crack at this. It's funny. I've had a lot of bosses at all the companies I've worked in and gotten my own set of feedback and they let me know how they think I'm doing and that sort of thing. But I think one thing, and we talked about this. Stop and think about what's going on. Think about it for what it is. And from the perspective as a bunch of the stakeholders. When we're working on software, I really try and push the people that are using our stuff to be the starting point for that stakeholder analysis. What I try and bring to my PR set when I'm working is just a healthy point of view that considers things broadly and prevents us from developing group thing or taking off in a particular direction. Some of my bosses over the years have commented that's really helpful.
Dave Gainer (01:39:50):
You help us see things for what they are. And it's like an intentional place I spend energy and put focus. It's part of just who I am. But I've been acknowledged enough for it by bosses here and at Accenture and other places. That is something I continue to try and figure out how to bring to the table and make it more interesting over time. It's not radical in the sense. That word could connote but it's more like. You don't be afraid to step back and try and look at what's really going on here or bring other information to the table and ask us if we all have the same goals, are the assumptions right? Is this really the reality we're facing? It's funny. An earlier time in my career. This is probably around when you and I worked together Rob. One of the things I was working on right?
Dave Gainer (01:40:35):
We we're all continually trying to develop our skills is, I could see these things coming that were probably going to be not great for some chunk of the organization and I try and sound an alarm bell. And quite often, I didn't communicate it in a way that was very effective so everyone ignored it. And there was a guy that used to call me Cassandra. And so for anyone that is into Greek myths, Cassandra was someone who had this curse and the curse was they could see the future but no one would listen to them. I can talk to Rob and Charlie and my team fine but what's going on I can't influence these other people. And so I actually spent a bunch of time saying, boy I can see this thing but I can't communicate it so I got to get better at that. And that was another journey in trying figure out their shoes, what their framer referencer was, what their Valuing system was.
Dave Gainer (01:41:19):
A lot of it comes back to trying to figure out what other people are being evaluated on. They're being evaluated on something different than you're being evaluated on. It's going to be hard to influence them. And so I do think a lot of this again is less radical and more just like really trying to bottom out on things and then find ways to motivate other people to do something about it to the extent you think that matters. Number nine, I'm going to pause here because I really like number nine and we never got there because we got into being radical. But this is another one I believe. And part of the reason I brought this hymn up is partly to say well, if this stuff can come from a story decorated U.S. Military officer, it can't be radical. But also just like how sensible it was up to me but at the same time you don't see it everywhere.
Dave Gainer (01:42:02):
True satisfaction comes from getting the job done. The key to successful leader's to earn respect. Not because of rank in position but because you're a leader of character. And so that's another one that as I've become more senior, I think about more and frankly it terrifies me because the bigger your team is, the less you can spend time with them personally but at the end of the day yeah. You want to make sure that you're enrolling these people not because they have to work for you but because there's something bigger than that going on. And that's something that I think I still struggle with to this day because it's a hard thing to scale.
Rob Collie (01:42:34):
I think that is a reflection of just human wiring right? It's the age old problem. We're wired for village size cooperation, but we've unlocked this cheat code as like Sapiens talks about. We've unlocked this cheat code of collaborating at phenomenal scale. Just absolutely phenomenal scale. You end up cooperating with people that you don't know. Or your actions are impacting people. It's fundamentally the problem that human society is struggling with now. The incentives are all wrong right? You can constantly externalize the negative consequences of your actions to people that you don't have to sympathize with.
Rob Collie (01:43:14):
I know that's not what you're saying Dave but when you organize at that scale, that deep human authenticity, how do you broadcast that? How do you scale that past a certain number? If you figure it out, you will be the only person on the planet who know knows. I just don't think anyone truly knows how to do that. Look at some of the really successful business leaders of today. They might as well be actors in terms of what they're showing the world right? It's a very carefully curated public image that is being displayed, not just to the world but to their rank and file. We don't know these people personally, it's really hard to do that. Good luck.
Dave Gainer (01:44:02):
This is something that you must have to struggle with because you've grown a company and it continues to grow and you onboard people and you and Kellan are the formal leaders. You've got to figure out how to project and enroll right? And it's the same challenge to anyone in the position of formal authority has.
Rob Collie (01:44:17):
It's true that I do have this problem but I don't really answer to anyone. This is still very much my company right? And so all the places where the official handbook of business says don't do X, we can still do those things. There need to be some sort of guard rails in a larger organization. And we have them here too of course. It's just that we have more leeway. And I think we can retain that leeway for quite some time. We can continue to grow for quite a while with exactly that same leeway. Who knows what the future holds. But I don't see any short term changes when... Again, we're not tens of thousands of people yet. And we're hiring people every week.
Rob Collie (01:44:58):
Every week I get another invite. I got one just before this recording. Another new hire that I get to meet. And it's fantastic. It's the coolest thing, meeting all of these amazing people and guess what? They don't all come from a homogenized set of background stories. Shocking right? Amazing people with such incredibly diverse backgrounds. And another thing, a lot of it, very unintentional. A lot of bouncing around and then even actually discovering that data is their thing. Almost no one at our company, myself included, set out to be a data professional. None of us. I don't think there's any of us that did.
Dave Gainer (01:45:41):
Certainly not me.
Rob Collie (01:45:43):
Hey. Well, you were programming Black Jack while Luke and I were programming animations of sneezing with snot going across the screen. In stop motion quality right?
Thomas LaRock (01:45:56):
There you go.
Rob Collie (01:45:58):
It's like digital stop motion.
Dave Gainer (01:46:02):
Wonderful. Okay. There's one more thing I wanted to actually ask you both before this is all over.
Thomas LaRock (01:46:08):
Okay.
Rob Collie (01:46:08):
Okay.
Dave Gainer (01:46:09):
Process right? I came from Accenture. They trained you to do things in a very repeatable fashion. And then I got to Microsoft and I got to manage people like Rob and one of the things I tried to train Rob and run the team on was very repeatable fashion. And I think that was one of the things where you saw it differently at the time. And I've heard you say recently, "I'll characterize you like, hey. This stuff turns out to be pretty important." I'd just love to like hear a little about that journey. I felt like when you and I parted ways and you went off to the next phases of your career, we still didn't see eye to eye.
Rob Collie (01:46:41):
Well, it goes back to a couple of things we talked about. Number one, what is it? The zebra doesn't change it's stripes. And you go to war with the armor that you've got. I would say that my transformation on this axis is half complete. Not a 100% complete. And half complete is probably where the story is going to end. It's like what I said about the printing story. Thinking about it ahead of time as like, the printing, it's going to be so boring. And then in hindsight, having this tremendous appreciation for it. I think that's where I'm in a similar place with the value of process. Now, Kellan's not here right? He's not on this recording. The sum total of my change here is that I have come to greatly appreciate and recognize the value and the necessity of having good processes.
Rob Collie (01:47:41):
I still haven't developed whatever it is. The capability, interest, whatever you want to call it, attention span. I have no idea right? To personally be good at implementing that. That's still not a strength of mine but thankfully it is a strength of others and they're in the right positions at this company. I weigh in and I have input for sure. One example though of a place where I actually have something I've come to believe with like religious fervor, I read this article, this essay or speech. We've mentioned it on the show before but it was by Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's right hand man. It's a long article. It's really aerody. It's crazy how this guy thinks but the first thing he talks about is the one that he really presses the bold button on and says, you could ignore the rest of this and just pay attention to this. Which is, if you get the incentives right in an organization, basically things are going to go well. If you don't get the incentives right, forget it. Almost nothing you do is going to matter.
Rob Collie (01:48:50):
And I was fascinated by this. And so consciously at this company, we made a decision to lean into this and I think it just had a lot to do with our ability to stay like in the Sapiens sense right? Organized not only at scale but at remote scale. We don't have a centralized office. We find the most talented people wherever they happen to be. We don't call our shot on geography, we don't make people move. We set the bar high enough and by keeping the geography filter essentially unspecified, we get the best of the best right? But we never get that face to face in office contact.
Rob Collie (01:49:31):
It's even harder to organize it's scale remotely. The places where I have contributed actually like passionate investment, have been around this, Kellan and I are equals in this. Trying to get the incentives at this company designed in a way that they're applied objectively and continuously. And that align the best interests of the company like of me, of Kellan and the individual employees. That is not the sum total of our process. We have a lot of processes but the one place where I actually have felt like I've been really active, is that one. But yeah. It's the strengths of the team right?
Dave Gainer (01:50:12):
You're right. That's a place where I spend a lot of time because we have big orgs that have to work together. And part of it is if there's some shared notion of success, everything works 10 times easier. And so putting tons of energy, you know that with whoever is leading the org on the other side, that's I think one of the best things I can do to help the people that will then have to go do the work. But the other thing and we wont to have time to get into this today. You could have another like whole podcast on this, which is, surrounding yourself by people that are different than yourself, right? This is another lesson I believe strongly, which is go find people that don't think like you.
Dave Gainer (01:50:44):
One of the things I always loved about having Rob on my team is you came and challenged my way of thinking just because you did and who you are and where you're coming from right? And I find that incredibly valuable because you get different perspectives if you have people that have different skills, backgrounds, belief systems, value systems. And the more you have of that then the more you're going to get super thoughtful dialogue that creates a better hole and so you and Kellan is just a nice example of, go find someone that's not Rob and put him on the team and then empower him to do what he does incredibly well. And everybody's better off. I guess we can save that for another podcast to go in too deeply.
Rob Collie (01:51:20):
That sounds like we get to bring you back.
Dave Gainer (01:51:22):
I don't know Rob.
Rob Collie (01:51:25):
Since you've enjoyed this so much it's like, I'm already cuing up the next episode.
Dave Gainer (01:51:29):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (01:51:30):
It was that good.
Rob Collie (01:51:31):
Dave, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Even more so man. There's a number of us like this, you have a number of alumni. I just sincerely appreciate what you did for me. Whatever metaphor we want to use. A number of us huddle from time to time and go, and I don't know how we ever pay it back. We could never pay you back for the things that you did for us. We just do that whole pay it forward to other people. Wish there were more like you.
Dave Gainer (01:51:58):
That's very kind. Plenty for me to think about coming out of this.
Speaker 3 (01:52:00):
Thanks for listening to The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to www.p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Imke Feldmann is among the first few to have recognized the incredible value and potential of this thing called Power Pivot in Excel (which was the precursor to Power BI). And did she ever run with it, launching quite the successful solo consultancy and training service! She exemplifies the helpful nature of the data community through her blog, The BIccountant, where she shares her amazing Microsoft BI tool knowledge.
Her background is in Finance and Accounting, but you'll quickly realize she knows a great deal more than just Finance and Accounting!
Contact Imke:
The BIccountant
Imke's Twitter
References in this Episode:
Imke's Github
MS Power BI Idea - Customizable Ribbon - Please Upvote :)
MS Power BI Idea - Speed Up PQ By Breaking Refresh Chain - Please Upvote :)
Episode Timeline:
- 3:00 - The value of outsourcing certain business functions, Imke's path to Power BI starts with Rob's blog, a multi-dimensional cube discussion breaks out!
- 19:45 - One of Power BI's strengths is collaboration, Imke LOVES her some Power Query and M and loves DAX not so much
- 33:45 - Imke has a BRILLIANT idea about how to improve Power Query and some other improvements that we'd like to see in PQ
- 52:30 - Rob's VS code experience, how COVID has affected the consulting business, Staying solo vs growing a company and how Imke determines which clients she takes on
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Imke Feldmann. We've been working for a long time, nearly a year to arrange the schedules to get her on the show, and I'm so glad that we finally managed to do it. For a moment, imagine that it's 2010, 2011, that era. During that timeframe, I felt not quite alone, but a member of a very slowly growing and small community of people who had glimpsed what Power Pivot could do. And for those of you who don't know what Power Pivot is, and that was the version of Power BI, the first version that was embedded only in Excel. And at the time, the way the community grew, we'll use a metaphor for this. Imagine that the community was a map of the world and the map is all dark, but slowly, you'd see these little dim lights lighting up like one over here in the UK, one in the Southwest corner of the United States, very faintly.
Rob Collie (00:00:51):
And these would be people who were just becoming aware of this thing, this Power Pivot thing, and you'd watch them. They'd sort of show up on the radar, very tentatively at first kind of dipping their toe, and then that light would get brighter, and brighter, and brighter over time, as they really leaned in, and they learned more and more, and they became more adept at it. And this was the way things went for a long time. And then in 2011, out of nowhere in Germany on the map, this light comes on at full intensity, brightly declaring itself as super talented and powerful. And that was what it felt like to come across Imke Feldmann.
Rob Collie (00:01:27):
Like all of our guests, there's a little bit of that accidental path in her career, but also a tremendous sense of being deliberate. When this stuff crossed her radar, she appreciated it immediately. And I didn't know this until this conversation, but she quit her corporate job in 2013, the same year that I founded P3 as a real company, and became a freelancer. So for eight plus years, she has been a full time Power BI professional. There truly aren't that many people who can say that in the world. Our conversation predictably wandered. At one point, we got pretty deep into the notion of M and Power Query and it's screaming need for more buttons on its ribbon. And Imke has some fantastic ideas on how they should be addressing that.
Rob Collie (00:02:14):
We also, of course, naturally talked about the differences between remaining a solo freelancer as she has, in contrast to the path that I chose, which is scaling up a consulting practice business. Along the way we reprised the old and completely pointless debate of DAX versus M, I even try to get Tom hooked on M as his new obsession. We'll see how well that goes. Most importantly though, it was just a tremendous pleasure to finally get to talk to Imke at length for the first time after all these years, we literally crossed paths 10 years ago. So it was a conversation 10 years in the making compress down to an hour and change. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did, so let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:56):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:03:00):
This is The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host Rod Collie, and your cohost Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:03:24):
Welcome to the show Imke Feldmann. How are you today?
Imke Feldmann (00:03:27):
Thank you, Rob. Great. It's a great day here over in Germany.
Rob Collie (00:03:30):
We have been talking about doing this for the better part of a year. So I'm glad that we're landing the guest, Imke is here. I really appreciate you doing this. So why don't we start with the basics. What are you up to these days? What do you do for a living?
Imke Feldmann (00:03:48):
I have people building great Power BI solutions these days.
Rob Collie (00:03:55):
Ah, yes.
Imke Feldmann (00:03:55):
That's how I fill my days.
Rob Collie (00:03:58):
I hear that that's a good business.
Imke Feldmann (00:03:58):
Yeah, it is.
Rob Collie (00:04:03):
So, and your website is?
Imke Feldmann (00:04:06):
Thebiaccountant.com.
Rob Collie (00:04:07):
Is that what you are on Twitter as well?
Imke Feldmann (00:04:08):
Yes. That's also my Twitter handle theBIccountant without an A in the middle. I just replaced the A from accountant with a BI.
Rob Collie (00:04:17):
There you go.
Imke Feldmann (00:04:18):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:04:18):
That's right. So that means that I'm going to make a tremendous leap here, wait till you see these powers of observation and deduction. You must have an accounting background?
Imke Feldmann (00:04:29):
I do, yes.
Rob Collie (00:04:30):
See you look at that. That's why I make the money. Okay, let's start there, was accounting your first career out of school?
Imke Feldmann (00:04:39):
Yes. I went to university and studied some economics or business stuff there, they'll know it's translated into English. And then I worked as a business controller. After that, I took over a job to lead a bookkeeping departments or to work with an area where the numbers came from basically. And then after that, I worked as the finance director, where I was responsible for a whole bunch of areas, controlling bookkeeping, IT, HR, and production. So that was quite a job with a broad range of responsibilities.
Rob Collie (00:05:18):
So you mentioned, kind of slipped IT into that list, right?
Imke Feldmann (00:05:23):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:23):
There's all these things in that list of responsibilities that all seemed they belong together, right? Bookkeeping, accounting, control or finance, IT. We've run into this before, with actually a number of people, that a lot of times the accounting or finance function in a company kind of wins the job of IT by default.
Imke Feldmann (00:05:45):
Yeah. It seems quite common in Germany, at least I would say.
Rob Collie (00:05:48):
I get multiple examples, but one that I can absolutely point to is Trevor Hardy from the Canadian Football League, he is in accounting, accounting and finance. And just by default, well, that's close to computers.
Imke Feldmann (00:06:00):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:06:01):
And so it just kind of pulls the IT function in. Now is that true at really large organizations in Germany or is it a mid market thing?
Imke Feldmann (00:06:09):
No I would say a mid market thing.
Rob Collie (00:06:12):
That's true here too. So when there isn't an IT org yet it ends up being, oftentimes it falls to the finance and accounting function. Hey, that's familiar. It's kind of funny when you think about it, but it's familiar. And isn't finance itself pretty different from accounting? How much of a leap is that? What was that transition like for you taking over the finance function as well? We tend to talk about these things, at least in the US, is like almost like completely separate functions at times.
Imke Feldmann (00:06:43):
It depends, but at least it had something to do with my former education, which wasn't the case with IT. So, I mean, of course on a certain management level, you are responsible for things that you're not necessarily familiar with in detail. You just have to manage the people that know the details and do the jobs for you. So that was not too big an issue I must admit.
Rob Collie (00:07:10):
My first job out of school was Microsoft, an organization of that size, I was hyper specialized in terms of what I did. At this company at P, we are nowhere near that scale, and there's a lot more of that multiple hat wearing. I've definitely been getting used to that over the last decade, the first decade plus of my career, not so much.
Imke Feldmann (00:07:31):
Yeah. That's interesting because I basically went completely the other way around. I see myself now as working as a technical specialist and as a freelancer, I don't have to manage any employees anymore.
Rob Collie (00:07:47):
Well, so now you wear all the hats?
Imke Feldmann (00:07:49):
Yes. In a certain way, yes.
Rob Collie (00:07:51):
Okay. There's no HR department necessarily, right, so it's just you. But marketing, sales, delivery, everything.
Imke Feldmann (00:08:01):
Yep, that's true. Yep. And when I first started, I tried to do everything by myself, but the test changed as well. So in the past I started to outsource more things, but to external companies, not internal staff.
Rob Collie (00:08:17):
So you're talking about outsourcing certain functions in your current business, is that correct?
Imke Feldmann (00:08:22):
Yes, yes.
Rob Collie (00:08:22):
So it's interesting, right? Even that comes with tremendous risk when you delegate a certain function to an outside party whose incentives and interests they are never going to be 100% aligned with yours. Even we have been taken for a ride multiple times by third-party consulting firms that we've hired to perform certain functions for us.
Imke Feldmann (00:08:46):
Oh, no I don't outsource and your services that I directly provide to my clients.
Rob Collie (00:08:49):
Oh, no, no.
Imke Feldmann (00:08:50):
No.
Rob Collie (00:08:50):
No, we don't either. But I'm saying for example, our Salesforce implementation for instance-
Imke Feldmann (00:08:56):
Okay, mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:08:57):
... Has been a tremendous money sink for us over the years. Where we're at is good, but the ROI on that spend has been pretty poor. It's really easy to throw a bunch of money at that and it just grinds and grinds and grinds. And so this contrast that I'm getting around to is really important because that's not what it's like to be a good Power BI consultant, right? You're not that kind of risk for your clients. But if you go out and hire out some sort of IT related services for example, like Salesforce development, we're exposed to that same sort of drag you out into the deep water and drown you business model, that's not how we operate. I'm pretty sure that's not how you operate either. And so anyway, when you start talking about outsourcing, I just thought, oh, we should probably talk about that. Have you outsourced anything for your own sort of back office?
Imke Feldmann (00:09:52):
Back office stuff, yeah. My blog, WordPress stuff, or computer stuff in the background. So security [inaudible 00:09:59] the stuff and things like that, things that are not my core, I hire consultants to help me out with things that I would formally Google, spend hours Googling with.
Rob Collie (00:10:09):
Yes.
Imke Feldmann (00:10:10):
Now I just hire consultants to do that. Or for example, for Power Automate, this is something that I wanted to learn and I saw the big potential for clients. And there I also did private training basically, or coaching, or how you called it, hire specialists.
Rob Collie (00:10:27):
To kind of getting you going?
Imke Feldmann (00:10:29):
Exactly, exactly.
Rob Collie (00:10:30):
And those things that you've outsourced for your back office, have there been any that felt like what I described you end up deep in the spend and deepen the project going, "What's going on here?"
Imke Feldmann (00:10:41):
I'm usually looking for freelancers on that. And I made quiet good experiences with it, I must say.
Rob Collie (00:10:49):
Well done. Well done. All right. So let's rewind a bit, we'll get to the point where you're in charge of the finance department, which of course includes IT.
Imke Feldmann (00:10:58):
Not necessarily so. I felt quite sad for the guys who I had to manage because I said, "Well, I'm really sorry, but you will hear a lot of questions from me, especially at the beginning of our journey," because I had to learn so much in order to be a good manager for them. So that was quite different situation compared to the management roles in finance that I had before, because there I had the impression that I knew something, but IT was basically blank.
Rob Collie (00:11:30):
I would imagine that that experience turned out to be very important, the good cross pollination, the exposure to the IT function and sort of like seeing it from their side of the table, how valuable is that turned out to be for your career?
Imke Feldmann (00:11:45):
I think it was a good learning and really interesting experience for me just to feel comfortable with saying that I have no clue and ask the people how things work and just feel relaxed about not being the expert in a certain area and just be open to ask, to get a general understanding of things.
Rob Collie (00:12:09):
That's definitely the way to do it, is to be honest and transparent and ask all the questions you need to do. It's easier said than done. I think a lot of people feel the need to bluff in those sorts of situations. And that usually comes back to haunt them, not always.
Imke Feldmann (00:12:25):
No, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:12:27):
Some people do get away with it, which is a little sad. So at what point did you discover Power BI?
Imke Feldmann (00:12:35):
I didn't discover Power BI, I discovered Power Pivot, for your blog of course.
Rob Collie (00:12:41):
Oh, really?
Imke Feldmann (00:12:43):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think it was in, must be 2011, something like that.
Rob Collie (00:12:50):
Early, yeah.
Imke Feldmann (00:12:51):
Yeah. Quite early. When I was building a multidimensional cube with a freelancer for our finance department, then I was just searching a bit what is possible, how we should approach this and things like that. So we started with multi-dimensional cube because that was something where I could find literature about and also find experts who could have me building that. But when doing so, I really liked the whole experience and it was a really excellent project that I liked very much. And so I just searched around in the internet and tried to find out what's going on in that area. And this is where I discovered your blog.
Rob Collie (00:13:35):
I have no idea. First of all, I had no idea that my old blog was where you first crossed paths with this.
Imke Feldmann (00:13:42):
I think [inaudible 00:13:43].
Rob Collie (00:13:44):
And secondly, I had no idea that it was that early. I mean, I remember when you showed up on the radar, Scott [inaudible 00:13:51] had discovered your blog and said, "Hey, Rob, have you seen this? Have you seen what she is doing? She is amazing." That wasn't 2011, that was a little bit later. I don't remember when but...
Imke Feldmann (00:14:06):
No, I think we've met first. I think we met on the Mr. XR Forum on some crazy stuff I did there. I cannot even remember what that was, but I started blogging in 2015 and we definitely met before.
Rob Collie (00:14:21):
That's what it was. It was the forums. And Scott was the one that had stumbled upon what you were doing there and brought my attention to it. I was like, whoa. It was like...
Imke Feldmann (00:14:34):
That last really some crazy stuff. I think I was moving data models from one Excel file to another or something like that. Some crazy stuff with [inaudible 00:14:43] and so on.
Rob Collie (00:14:44):
You obviously remember a better than I do. But I just remember being jaw dropped, blown away, impressed, by what you were doing. And the thing is the world of Power Pivot interest at that point in time still seems so small. The community still seems so small that for you to emerge on our radar fully formed, already blowing our minds, that was the first thing we ever heard from you. That was a real outlier because usually the way the curve of awareness went with other members of the community is that like, you'd see something modest from them. And you'd sorta like witnessed their upward trajectory as they developed. Of course, you've continued to improve and learn and all of that since then. But as far as our experience of it, it was you just showed up already at the graduate level, just like where did she come from? So cool. So you said that you enjoyed the multi-dimensional cube project?
Imke Feldmann (00:15:43):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. I don't know MDX, but I totally enjoyed the project. So being able to build a reporting solution for my own company, basically then for the company I worked for, and doing it live with a consultant with a freelancer on my hand, discussing how things should look like and just seeing the thing form before my eyes and grow. And this was just such an enjoyable experience for me.
Rob Collie (00:16:11):
So the thing that's striking about that for me is, there's no doubt that the multi-dimensional product from Microsoft was a valuable product. It did good things. But I never have heard someone say that they really enjoyed the implementation process as a client, right?
Imke Feldmann (00:16:31):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:16:31):
You had a freelancer doing the work. So something you said there really jumped out at me, it was, sort of like doing the project live. So the way that this worked traditionally, at least in the US, is the consultant would interview you about your requirements and write a big long requirements document and then disappear and go build a whole bunch of stuff and come back and show it to you, and it's completely not what anyone expected. It's almost like you're on completely different planets. Obviously, if you'd had that experience, you would not be saying that you enjoyed it. So there had to be something different about the way that you and that freelancer interacted. Do you remember what the workflow was like?
Imke Feldmann (00:17:16):
What we did is that we often met together and just looked at where we're at and what the next steps should be. And we definitely had specific targets in mind. So there were some reports that I had defined as a target, and around these reports I was aware that we needed something that a proper data model, because I also knew that I wanted to have some sort of a general set up that could be carried from Excel as well. So I knew about cube functions, and I knew that on one hand I needed these reports that had formerly been within our ERP system. Also, I wanted them to be in a separate solution that was under my control and independent from the ERP system. And on the other hand, I wanted some more. So I wanted the flexibility to be able to vary this data and for certain other purposes in the controlling department as well. So basically being able to do ad hoc analysis on it.
Imke Feldmann (00:18:23):
And we met often and I showed a certain interest in how the table logic was created. So I knew that the MDX was over my head at the time, but I showed a very strong interest in which table are created, how they relate to each other, and that was quite unusual. At least this is what the [inaudible 00:18:47] the freelancer told me.
Rob Collie (00:18:49):
I bet.
Imke Feldmann (00:18:50):
He said that he doesn't see that very often that clients showed this sort of interest.
Rob Collie (00:18:56):
Did he say, "Yeah. You really seem to be having fun with this. Most of my clients don't enjoy this." You said that you met very often, so were there times where he was writing MDX while you were in the room?
Imke Feldmann (00:19:10):
Sometimes yes, because I said, "Well, can we switch this a bit or make some changes?" And sometimes he said, "Well, I can try adjust now." Because he came over for one day or half a day, and then we spoke things through and defined further things. And if we were finishing early, he would just stay and do some coding there. But apart from that, he would work from home and do the big stuff.
Rob Collie (00:19:37):
OLAP originally it stands for online analytical processing, where online meant not batch, right? It meant you could ask a question and get the answer while you were still sitting there.
Imke Feldmann (00:19:51):
Okay. Oh, really?
Rob Collie (00:19:53):
That's what online meant.
Imke Feldmann (00:19:54):
It's interesting.
Rob Collie (00:19:56):
It basically meant almost like real time. It's a cousin of real time, that's what online meant at that point, as opposed to offline where you write a query and submit it and come back next week right? So that's what the online and OLAP comes from.
Imke Feldmann (00:20:12):
Oh, interesting.
Rob Collie (00:20:13):
We would pick a different terminology of OLAP were it invented today. So something interesting about, it sounds like your experience, and I did not anticipate drilling into your experience with multi-dimensional on this conversation, but I think it's really important is that at least some portion of that project that you sponsored and implemented with the freelancer, at least some portion of the work was similarly performed online. Meaning the two of you were sort of in real time communication as things evolved. And the old model and the vast majority of multidimensional solutions that have ever been built in the world, the MDX powered solutions, were built and an offline model, where the majority of the communication supposedly takes place in the form of a requirements document.
Rob Collie (00:21:05):
And that was a deeply, deeply, deeply flawed approach to the problem, that just doesn't actually work. So I guess it's not surprising to me that the one time I've ever heard someone say they really enjoyed that multi-dimensional project, that at least a portion of that multidimensional project was sort of almost like real-time collaboratively performed rather than completely asynchronous, right? I guess we want to be really geeky, we could say it was a synchronous model of communication as opposed to an asynchronous one. And Power BI really facilitates that kind of interaction.
Imke Feldmann (00:21:41):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:21:42):
The reason why the MDX multi-dimensional model worked the way it did, or there was two reasons, one is a legitimate one on one of them is more cynical. So the legitimate reason is, is that it required reprocessing of the cube for every change, it's just too slow, right? The stakeholder, the business stakeholder doesn't typically have the time or the patience to sit there while the code's being written, because it's so long between even just implementing a formula change sometimes would be, well, we need to wait an hour. And so the attention span of the business person can't be held for good reason there, right? And so that sort of drove it into an asynchronous model.
Rob Collie (00:22:23):
The other reason is, is that that is asynchronous model turned out to be a really good business model for the consultants, because the fact that it didn't work meant that every project lasted forever. And so that's the cynical reason. But Power BI is not long delays. You change the measure formula, or you add an extra relationship, or heck even bringing in a new table, just a brand new table, bring it in, it wasn't even in the model, now it's in the model. End to end that can sometimes be measured in minutes or even seconds. And so you can retain engaged collaborative interest. Now it's not like you're always doing that, right? There's still room for offline asynchronous work in our business, but really critical portions of it can be performed the other way. And I think that makes a huge difference.
Imke Feldmann (00:23:13):
Yep. And that's what I like about it. So it's so great to be able to have, as a consultant, to perform really relatively large tasks without any further involvement of other people. Which, I mean, honestly, I don't call myself a team worker, not because I don't love other people also, but teamwork means you have to communicate with other people, make sure that they know what you're working on. So there are so many interfaces that have to be maintained if you're working with other people. And so I really laugh the way I work currently being able to deliver full solutions as a one woman show consultant. That is really a pleasure for me. That's really my preferred way of work, I must say. Because I can really focus on the things that have to be done and I'm able to deliver value in a relatively short time for the clients.
Rob Collie (00:24:14):
That's a really interesting concept. There are certain kinds of problems in which collaboration, a team collaboration is absolutely necessary. The magic of collaboration sometimes can beat problems that no individual could ever beat. At the same time though, there's this other dynamic, right, where having a team working on a problem is actually a real liability because the communication complexity between the people becomes the majority of the work. Here's a really hyper simplified example. There used to be sort of a three-person committee, if you will, that was running our company P3, me and two other people.
Imke Feldmann (00:24:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:24:58):
And so all leadership decisions were essentially handled at that level. Well, things change, people move on, right? And so we went from a three person committee to a two person committee. We didn't anticipate the two of us who stayed, right? We did not anticipate how much simpler that was going to make things. We thought, just do the math, right, it's going to be like, well, it's one less person to get on the same page. So it's going to be a one-third reduction in complexity. It was actually double that because we went from having three pairs of communication, right, the triangle has three sides, to a line that only has one side, right? So there was only one linkage that needed to be maintained as opposed to three geometrically, combinatorially, whatever we're going to say, right? It just became-
Imke Feldmann (00:25:45):
Exponential.
Rob Collie (00:25:45):
... Exponetially simpler. And so for problems that can be soloed, you have this amazing savings in efficiency, in clarity, even, right?
Imke Feldmann (00:25:59):
Yup.
Rob Collie (00:25:59):
There's just so many advantages when you can execute as one person, then there's the other examples like our company at our size now, even ignoring the number of consultants that we need to do our business, just the back office alone, we need the difference in skills. We need the difference in talents and interests and everything. We simply could not exist without that kind of collaboration. However, when our consultants were working with a client, usually it's essentially a one-on-one type of thing, right? We don't typically put teams of consultants on the same project. We might have multiple consultants working for the same client and they might be building something that's somehow integrated, but it's still very similar, I think to your model, when you actually watch sort of the work being done, there's this amazing savings and complexities.
Imke Feldmann (00:26:50):
Yup, that's true. Of course I have a network in the background. So when big problems arise where I need brain input, of course, I have a network, but it's not a former company.
Rob Collie (00:27:02):
And that's how we work too, right? We have all kinds of internal Slack channels. For some reason we adopted Slack years ago before Teams was really a thing. So Slack is sort of like our internal social network. There's a lot of discussion of problems, and solutions, and a lot of knowledge sharing, and people helping each other out behind the scenes in that same way. Again, we do bring multiple consultants into particularly large projects, but it's not like there's three people working together on the same formula. In Power BI, the things that you do in ETL, the things that you do in power query are intimately interrelated with the data model and the decks that you need to create. And imagine parceling that out to three different people. You have one formula writer, one data modeler, one ETL specialist, you would never ever get anywhere in that kind of approach.
Imke Feldmann (00:28:00):
Not necessarily. I mean, the tax people are the person responsible for the data model. He could write down his requirements. He could define the tables basically. And then someone could try to get the data from the sources. But of course, then you get some feedback that the data isn't there or that the model has to be shaped in a different way. So it has two sides to it. But that's interesting to see that you have the same experience, that Power BI models or solutions of a certain size that can very well be handled by one person alone. And that really brings speed, and flexibility, and agility to the whole development process I think.
Rob Collie (00:28:41):
You communicate with yourself at what's above giga? Peta, petabit? you communicate with yourself at petabit speed and you communicate with others through a noisy 2,400 baud modem that's constantly breaking up. It's amazing what that can do for you sometimes. So there comes a point in your journey where you decide to go freelance.
Imke Feldmann (00:29:07):
Yup.
Rob Collie (00:29:08):
That's a courageous leap. When did that happen and what led you to that conclusion?
Imke Feldmann (00:29:13):
I made the decision in 2012 already to do that.
Rob Collie (00:29:19):
Wow.
Imke Feldmann (00:29:20):
And I just saw the light. I just saw the light in Power Pivot and then Power Query came along and I saw what Microsoft was after. And as I said, I enjoyed the building of the cube, getting my hands dirty, reading about the technologies behind it and so on. And this was what I felt passionate about. And I also had the idea that I needed some break from company politics. And so I just thought, well, I give it a try. And if it doesn't work, I can find a job after that or find a company where I work for at any time after that. So I just tried it and it worked.
Rob Collie (00:30:05):
So you decided in 2012, did you make the break in 2012 as well?
Imke Feldmann (00:30:12):
I prepared it, and then I just in 2013, I started solo.
Rob Collie (00:30:18):
Okay. 2013 is also when we formally formed our company. For 2010-2013, it was a blog. I had other jobs. I had other clients essentially, but I wasn't really hanging out the shingle so to speak, as you know, we're not an actual business really until 2013. And I guess it's not much accident that we both kind of did the same thing about the same time, it's that demand was finally sufficient I think in 2013 to support going solo. In 2012, there weren't enough clients to even support one consultant. And so, oh, that's great. And I think you really liked Power Query too, does M speak to you?
Imke Feldmann (00:31:02):
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:31:03):
It does, doesn't it?
Imke Feldmann (00:31:04):
I really prefer Power Query or M over DAX, I must admit. It has been much more liable to me than DAX.
Rob Collie (00:31:15):
Oh, and I liked you so much before you said that. I'm team DAX all the way.
Imke Feldmann (00:31:23):
I know. I know. I know. I mean, of course I love to use DAX as well, but I really feel very, very strong about Power Query. And I mean, I had such a great journey with it. I mean, it was really [inaudible 00:31:35] work for me personally, that I did with it. And it was just a great journey to understand how things work. I mean, this has been the first coding language for me that I really learned. And it was just a great journey to learn all the things and starting to blog about it. And of course, I started basically helping people in the forum, that's where I basically built my knowledge about it, solving other people's problems. And this was just a great journey. And Polar Query has always been good to me than DAX.
Rob Collie (00:32:14):
This is really cool, right? So you fell in love with Power Pivot, so DAX and data model, right? There was no Power Query.
Imke Feldmann (00:32:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:32:23):
Okay. And because we had no Power Query, there were many, many, many things you couldn't do in Power Pivot unless your data source was a database.
Imke Feldmann (00:32:30):
Yup.
Rob Collie (00:32:31):
Because you needed views created that gave you the right shape tables, right? If your original data source didn't have a lookup table, a dimension table, you had to make one. And how are you going to make one without Power Query? It gets crazy, right? At least unbelievable. So try to mentally travel back for a moment to the point in time where you're willing to, and not just, it doesn't sound like you were just willing to, you were eager to go solo to become a freelancer, right, with just DAX and data modeling. And then after that, this thing comes along that you light up when you talk about. You didn't have this thing that you love, but you were already in, that doesn't happen very often.
Imke Feldmann (00:33:18):
It could be that loved DAX at the beginning, but it just started to disappoint me at sometimes.
Rob Collie (00:33:29):
Oh, okay.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:29):
It disappoints everyone.
Rob Collie (00:33:29):
I'm just devastated.
Imke Feldmann (00:33:35):
No, I mean, it's amazing what DAX can do, but I mean, we all know it looks easy at the beginning, but then you can really get trapped in certain situations.
Rob Collie (00:33:46):
Yeah. I described these two things is like the length and width of a rectangle, Power Query and DAX. Take your pick, which one's the width, which one's the length? I don't care. And then we ask which one is more responsible for the area of the rectangle, right? Neither. You can double the length of either of them and it doubles the area of the rectangle. So it's really ironic that I'm so sort of firmly on team DAX for a number of reasons. Number one, is that I'm really not actually that good at it compared to the people who've come along since. Like my book, for instance, I think, I look at it as this is the 100 and maybe the 200 level course at university, maybe the first in the second course, maybe, but it's definitely not the third course. The thing that you take in your third or fourth year of university, that's not covered in my book in terms of DAX.
Rob Collie (00:34:44):
And basically every one of the consultants at our company is better at DAX than I am. And that's great. That's really good. And the other thing that's ironic about my love of DAX over M, is if these two were in conflict, which they aren't.
Imke Feldmann (00:35:00):
No they are.
Rob Collie (00:35:02):
Is that I actually was trying for years to get a Power Query like project started on the Excel team. I knew how much time was being chewed up in the world just transforming data, not analyzing it even, just getting things ready for analysis. It's just ungodly amounts of time. And so I was obsessed with end-user ETL. When I was on the Excel team, it was like a running joke, someone would mention in a meeting, "Well, that's kind of like ETL," and other people would go, "Oh no, no, don't say that in front of Rob, he's going to get started and he won't shut up about it for the next 30 minutes." On the podcast with the Power Query team, I told them I'm really glad that no one ever agreed to fund my project on the Excel team because now that I see what Power Query is like I grossly underestimated how much work needed to go into something like that. And I'm glad that Microsoft isn't saddled with some old and completely inadequate solution to the Power Query space, because now that I've seen what the real thing looks like, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we would've never been able to pull that off."
Rob Collie (00:36:14):
So the thing that I was most obsessed with is the thing that now that it's actually been built, for some reason, I just find M to be, I don't know, there's like a reverse gravity there that pushes me away.
Imke Feldmann (00:36:26):
What I actually would like to see is that there's less need to use M in the Power Query product. So first, the only thing I was dreaming about was finally to have a function library that can easily be shipped from then, or that you can download from internet or wherever, where you can use additional functions in your M code. So this was the first thing that I was really passionate about and thought that we should have such a thing in Power Query to be able to make more cool things, or group steps together. But now what I really think we should actually have and see in Power Query is the ability to build our own ribbons and to the query editor.
Rob Collie (00:37:13):
Yes.
Imke Feldmann (00:37:13):
Like we have in an Excel. So this is something that in my eyes would really bring a big push to the product and actually would make so much sense for the people who start using these products. I mean the whole Power platform can have so many benefits for finance department, all departments, but I mean, I'm passionate about finance departments. But have you counted how many low-code languages are in there, if you include Power Apps and Power Automate and all these things?
Rob Collie (00:37:50):
Low-code.
Imke Feldmann (00:37:50):
And honestly, in order to come up with any solution that makes sense in a business environment, I would say in all of these solutions, there is no way around the code at the end. I mean, you get quite far with clicky, clicky, but I haven't seen solutions where you get around the languages. And now imagine the typical finance people who really they know the Excel formulas and some of them might know VBA as well. And now their server uses new low-code, no-code word, and just get your head around about five or six new languages that you all have to know and learn in order to get something useful and so on. So I think that's just not feasible for people who have real jobs in the business to learn all that.
Rob Collie (00:38:42):
Well, that's what you're here for, right? That's what your business is for and that's what P3 is for.
Imke Feldmann (00:38:48):
We get them started and the products are great. And if there are people in the companies who have a drive to learn things and take the time they get their heads around it, but it could be easier. It could be easier with things like that, where we could provide additional user interfaces and just make it even easier for people to build great solutions for them or adapt solutions that consultants had build initially, but to maintain them by themselves and make adjustments to them if needed.
Rob Collie (00:39:19):
So [inaudible 00:39:20] has an old joke where he says, when he's doing a presentation or something, he says, "That's a good question. And I define good question as a question I know the answer to, right." And then he says, "But then a great question is a question that is covered by the very next slide." So there's a similar parallel joke to make here, which is that, that idea you just talked about with the ribbons and everything, right? So if I said, it's a smart idea, what I would mean is, again, this is a joke, right? I would mean that that's an idea that I agree with and have kind of already had. But if I say it's a brilliant idea-
Imke Feldmann (00:39:55):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:39:56):
... Then it's an even better version of an idea that I've already had that has never occurred to me. Your idea is a brilliant idea.
Imke Feldmann (00:40:02):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:40:06):
It goes beyond. So I have been advocating privately behind the scenes with the Power Query team forever telling them that they need about three or four more ribbon tabs. There's just way too many commonly encountered problems for which you can imagine there being a button for, and there's no button.
Imke Feldmann (00:40:28):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:40:29):
And it's like, I don't understand. I used to be on teams like that, but I don't understand why they haven't gotten to this. Because it seems so low hanging fruit. They've already built the engine, they've built the language, right? The language can already handle this, but you actually had two brilliant ideas in there that had never occurred to me. First of all, I'm used to the idea that the community can't contribute libraries of functions, they can't do that for DAX.
Imke Feldmann (00:40:57):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:40:58):
That's not even like engineering possible for DAX. And the reason for it is, is that the DAX engine is so heavily optimized in so many ways that there'd be no way to plug in some new function that's unpredictable in terms of what it needs to do. All of these things, they're all inherently interrelated and they make changes in the storage and the query engine to make this function work better and vice versa, because it has to take advantage of the index compression scheme and all of that kind of stuff. It's actually not possible, is the wrong word, but it's actually orders of magnitude more difficult, if not impossible to allow DAX to have UDF, user-defined function type of feature.
Rob Collie (00:41:42):
I don't think Power Query is like that though. Maybe naively, because again, I'm not on the internals team on the Power Query side. But it does seem like a UDF capability is at least much more feasible-
Imke Feldmann (00:41:53):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:41:54):
... For Power Query, which does execute row by row essentially. Other languages have this, right? One of the reasons that R is so popular is not that R is so awesome, is that R has tremendous libraries of commonly solved problems that you can just go grab off the internet or off the shelf and plug into your solution.
Imke Feldmann (00:42:14):
I have my own library I've created. You can go to my GitHub and you'll see 50, 60 custom M functions. You can package them in a record and [inaudible 00:42:24] them as a library and your M code, or you could even connect live to them and run them with an execute statement. But this is too difficult, although it's just a couple of clicks, but it's too difficult or at least intimidating for the beginners, who really Power Query beginners who start with the products, I think there's so much potential to make their life easier. And that's not through some coding stuff, or I know this function, I know that function, that's really can only come in my eyes through user interface with buttons.
Rob Collie (00:42:59):
Yeah, I agree. And just as importantly for me, is that I might actually come around and be like, just as much team Power Query as team DAX. Honestly, my frustration is just the M language and just my total lack of desire to learn it. [crosstalk 00:43:16]. It is what it really comes down to. It's not about M, it's not about Power Query, it's about me. Whereas again, I know the need that it fills is massively important. So it's not that I think it's a bad mission, I think it's like the mission in a lot of ways. I was obsessed with it long before I ever crossed paths with business intelligence, I was obsessed with data transformation, end user data transformation. It's just a problem that's about as ubiquitous as it gets. So let's make it happen. We agree, the two of us, that's it, right? It's like we need to go provide a unified front.
Imke Feldmann (00:43:52):
I think that that's an idea in the idea forum, I might send the link that you can maybe post.
Rob Collie (00:43:56):
We want that thing up, voted to the moon. I'll even go figure out what my sign in is on the ideas side.
Imke Feldmann (00:44:08):
Oh, good luck with it.
Rob Collie (00:44:09):
Which is absolutely impossible. I have no idea which of the 14 counts. And then I'll try to create a new one and it'll go, "Nah, you're not allowed to. We know it's you, but we won't tell you who it is, what your email address is." So I completely agree. So there's so many problems. I always struggle to produce the list. It's like I need to be writing down the list of things that are crucial, but here's an example. Remove duplicates, but control which duplicate you keep. That's a problem that can't be solved in the GUI today.
Imke Feldmann (00:44:48):
And you need the intimidating type of buffer that you have to write by hand around it, which is just pain.
Rob Collie (00:44:56):
Remove dups and don't care which one you keep. Okay, fine. That's a great simple button. There should be an advanced section that allows you to specify, oh, but before you keep the dups, sort by this column or sort in the following manner.
Imke Feldmann (00:45:10):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:45:10):
And then keep the first one of each group. It's easy for us to say outside the team, but apparently that is a, we just make a joke, right? That's apparently a Manhattan project level of software to add that extra button. Anyway, we'll get that.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:27):
That doesn't make sense to me though. I'm fascinated by all of your conversation and you guys are a hundred miles away from me in a lot of this stuff, but I could listen to it all day. But no, the fact that Excel can't do the remove duplicates, except for like the first of each one of something, that's a simple group by. In my head, I sit there and go that's easily solvable because Excel and DAX does such great stuff that I would never want to do in TSQL, how the hell do we stumble across a thing that's been solved by straight up SQL language that somehow can't get into an Excel?
Rob Collie (00:46:01):
Well, let's explain the problem very clearly and see if we're on the same page as to what the problem is, but either way it'll be valuable. So let's say you have a whole bunch of orders, a table full of orders. That is a really wide Franken table. It's got things like customer ID, customer address, customer phone number, but also what product they ordered, and how much of it, and how much it cost. Okay, and a date, a date of the order. All right. And you've been given this table because the people that are responsible for this system, they think that what you want is a report and not a data source. And this is incredibly common. Okay. So you need to extract a customer's dimension or lookup table out of this. You need to create a customer's table so that you can build a good star schema model. Okay. And Power Query is right there to help you. Power Query will help you invent a customer's look up table where one wasn't provided, and that's awesome.
Rob Collie (00:46:58):
Okay. So you say, okay, see customer ID this column. I want to remove duplicates based on that column. Okay, great. But now it's just that the order that the data came in from the report file or the database or whatever that will determine which duplicate is kept. What you really want to do of course is take the most recent customer order of each customer ID because they've probably moved. They may have changed phone numbers, whatever, right? You want their most recent contact information. You don't want their contact information for 15 years ago. And the M language allows you to solve this problem essentially sort by date, and then keep the most recent, but only if you get into the code manually, and as Imke points out, it's not even if you go into the code, the things that you would want to do, if you do a sort, you can add a sort step to the Power Query with the buttons, with the GUI, and then you do the remove duplicates and it ignores the source.
Imke Feldmann (00:47:59):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:48:02):
The GUI almost tries to tell you that it's impossible, but if you know about table dot buffer.
Imke Feldmann (00:48:07):
So the question is why do we have a sort command in Power Query when it doesn't give the sort order? I mean, that is the question to ask. But that's how it is.
Rob Collie (00:48:16):
It sorts the results. It sorts the results, it just doesn't sort for the intermediate steps.
Imke Feldmann (00:48:20):
Why? No, that's quite technical. But would just be great if such a common task could be done with buttons that is reliable at the end. I fully agree.
Rob Collie (00:48:35):
So Tom, I think this one's really just an example of, again, I truly think that M and Power Query, just like DAX and data modeling, the Power BI data modeling, both of these things belong in the software hall of fame of all time. It is amazing, Power Query, M, is just ridiculously amazing. It's one of the best things ever invented. Remember this is someone who's associated with being a critic of it.
Imke Feldmann (00:49:04):
Yeah, you're making progress, it's great to see.
Rob Collie (00:49:07):
And yet I'm telling you that it's one of the top five things ever invented probably. And I think there's a certain tendency when you've done something that amazing to lose track of the last mile. I think it's more of a human thing.
Imke Feldmann (00:49:19):
Maybe, but I mean, what I see is that they are investing quite a lot in data flows, which makes a lot of sense as well in my eyes.
Rob Collie (00:49:27):
All that really does though, as far as you and I are concerned, Imke, is it makes it even more important that they solve this problem. Because it's now exposed in two different usage scenarios.
Imke Feldmann (00:49:37):
Yeah, you're right.
Rob Collie (00:49:39):
And I want my data flow to be able to control which duplicates are kept too. So that's what I'm saying. There's all these big sort of infrastructural technical challenges that do tend to draw resources. And it's not a neglect thing.
Imke Feldmann (00:49:54):
No, no.
Rob Collie (00:49:54):
It isn't like a willful failure or anything like that, I don't want to paint that kind of negative of a picture.
Imke Feldmann (00:49:59):
No.
Rob Collie (00:50:00):
It's just that out here in reality, the inability to do, even if we just identified the top 10 things like this, addressing those top 10 things with GUI, with buttons, what have I think in the world, maybe even a bigger impact than the entire data flows project, right? Because you would expand the footprint of human beings that are advocates of this stuff and then you go build data flows. You don't have to think of it as either or, right? They should do both. It's just that I think it's hard to appreciate the impact of those 10 buttons when you're on the software team. It's easier to appreciate the impact of data flows, which is massive. I don't mean to denigrate that. I think it's crazy good. It's just that this other thing is of a similar magnitude in terms of benefit, but it's harder to appreciate when you're on the software team. It's easier to appreciate when you're out here in the trenches, living it every single day. And every time I run into a problem like this, I have to put my hand up and say to my own team, I have to say, " Help."
Thomas LaRock (00:51:02):
So a casual observation I have is that you wish for there to exist one tool that will handle all of your data janitorial needs. And that tool doesn't necessarily exist because life is dirty, so is your data and you're never going to anticipate everything possible. Now, should that sorting functionality exist in that duplicates, the scenario gave me? Yeah, probably. But there's always going to be something next. And that's why I go to you and I say, the thing that you've described to me is you need your data to be tidy so that it can be consumed and used by a lot of these features that we've talked about today. And in order to get to tidy data, there's no necessarily one tool.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:48):
You're a big fan of the ETL, Rob. You know that, hey, maybe I need to take the source data and run it through some Python scripts, or some M, or something first before it goes to this next thing. And that's the reality that we really have. What you're wishing for is the one tool, the one button to rule it all. And that's going to take a while before that ever comes around.
Rob Collie (00:52:09):
The thing is though, is that M is ridiculously complete.
Imke Feldmann (00:52:14):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:52:15):
You can do anything with it. And it's a language that's optimized for data transformation. So I know you can do anything with C++ too, right? But this is a data crunching, data transformation, specialized language that is really complete. And its UI is woefully under serving the capabilities of the engine. And so I suppose we could imagine and deliberately design a data transformation scenario that maybe M couldn't do it.
Imke Feldmann (00:52:45):
No.
Rob Collie (00:52:46):
I think that'd be a very difficult challenge considering how good M is.
Imke Feldmann (00:52:49):
I think in terms of logic, M can do anything, but in terms of performance, there is some room for improvements. So because there's a streaming semantic running in the background, and as long as the stream runs through all the steps, if you have complex queries, this can really slow things down. And currently there is no button or command in the M language to cut the stream and say, well, stop it here and buffer what you have calculated until here, and then continue from there. So if you have really complex stuff that would benefit from an intermediate buffer, then you can store that in an Azure blob or CSV, or whatever. Specifically if you're working with data flows, you can create some automatic processes that would enable this kind of buffering.
Imke Feldmann (00:53:45):
And then you will see that the speed of the whole process that can really increase dramatically because in some situations, the speed in M drops exponentially. And these are occasions where a buffer would really helped things, but we don't have it yet in the engine of Power Query. So this was what really be something else that would be fairly beneficial if we wouldn't have to make these work-arounds through things.
Rob Collie (00:54:14):
Tom, that just occurred to me, I can't believe this is the first time that this thought has crossed my mind. But I think that you might fall into an abyss of love with M.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:28):
Well, I'm a huge James Bond fan, but...
Rob Collie (00:54:30):
Oh, no. I think you would really, really just dig it.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:38):
I don't think I have time to take on a new relationship at this point. I'm still with Python and R, so I mean, I don't know. I'm not going to disagree, I'm just, please don't start a new addiction for me.
Rob Collie (00:54:51):
Think of the content though, that you could produce over time. The M versus SQL versus Python treatises.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:59):
Cookbook.
Rob Collie (00:55:00):
You were made for this mission Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:03):
Okay. So we'll have to talk later about it. You can sweet talk me. You know I've let you sweet talk me into any [inaudible 00:55:08].
Rob Collie (00:55:08):
That's right, that's right. Come on, Tom. Get into M, you know that thing that I have nothing but praise for, that I just love to death, you need to do that.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:18):
For you. That's what you want to do, is you want to learn it but [inaudible 00:55:21] through me.
Rob Collie (00:55:22):
Oh, that wouldn't work. I would be, "Oh yeah, well this is still M."
Thomas LaRock (00:55:29):
You're going to be like, "Tom, where's your latest blog post on M so I can read it and hate upon it even more?"
Rob Collie (00:55:37):
No, I would not read. Just as the first step.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:42):
I'm going to read it, but not leave a comment about how much I hate it.
Rob Collie (00:55:45):
Let's go back to talking about how we did a bunch of big fat Fisher-Price buttons for me to mash my thumbs in the UI. That's what I need.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:54):
You know what? I'll do that. I'll open up VS code and I'll just build this one big button, it's Rob's button.
Rob Collie (00:56:00):
Hey, you won't believe this, but I recently installed VS code.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:03):
I don't believe it, why?
Rob Collie (00:56:05):
Well, because I needed to edit, not even write, because I'm not capable of it. I needed to edit an interface, add on customization for World of Warcraft. And the only purpose of this World of Warcraft add on interface modification was to allow me to drop snarky comments into a particular channel of the conversation based on the button that I press. I needed a menu of snarky comments to drop at particular points in time. It's hard to type them out all the time, right? So it's just like, now here we go. I dropped one of those. I dropped one of those.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:37):
We got to get you a real job or something. You got way too much time on your hands.
Rob Collie (00:56:42):
That was my number one contribution to the World of Warcraft Guild. For a couple of months, there was the snarky rogue chat.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:48):
You know that is on brand.
Rob Collie (00:56:56):
It prefixed every comment in the chat with a prefix, you came from rogue chat 9,000. So that people who aren't on the joke were like, "Why is this guy, he's usually very quiet, become so obnoxious. Look at the things he's saying." Anyway. So VS code. And that also involved GitHub. Because my friend who wrote the stub, the shell of this add on for me is a vice president at GitHub. So of course he puts the code in GitHub and points me to it and then points me to VS code, and I'm like, "Oh, you're making me work now? Okay. But you wrote the shell for me, so okay. All right. I'll play ball." So it doesn't sound like you regret your decision to go solo.
Imke Feldmann (00:57:40):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:57:41):
You're not looking to go back to corporate life.
Imke Feldmann (00:57:43):
Absolutely not.
Rob Collie (00:57:44):
Not missing that. So what can you tell us about the last year or two? What impact, if any, did COVID have on your business?
Imke Feldmann (00:57:52):
Business has grown especially the last year. So people needed more reports than ever and solutions. So it really, I don't know whether it was COVID effect or just the fact that Power BI is growing and growing.
Rob Collie (00:58:07):
I'm sure it's both. So the dynamic we saw during 2020. So 2020 would be the, if you're going to have a year that was negatively impacted by COVID, it would have been 2020. And what we saw in 2020 was that we were definitely not acquiring new clients. We weren't making new relationships at nearly the rate we had been people weren't taking risks on meeting a new BI firm. That wasn't something that there was as much appetite for as there had been. However, amongst the clients where we already had a good relationship, we'd already been working with them for a while, their needs for data work expanded as a result of COVID because it did, it created all kinds of new problems and it invalidated so many existing blueprints of tribal knowledge of how we run the business. When reality changes, you need new maps, you need new campuses.
Rob Collie (00:59:04):
And so on net, we ended up our overall business still grew modestly over the course of 2020, year over year compared to 2019. But then when the new clients started to become viable again, people started looking, we're interested in making new relationships, 2021 has been a very, very strong year of growth, not moderate, really kind of crazy. How do you keep up with increased demand as a one person shop?
Imke Feldmann (00:59:35):
Saying no.
Rob Collie (00:59:36):
You have to make your peace with saying no. At one point in my history, I faced sort of the same thing and I decided not to say no, and instead decided to grow the company. That brought an enormous amount of risk and stress-
Imke Feldmann (00:59:55):
I can imagine.
Rob Collie (00:59:55):
... Into my life that I did not anticipate its magnitude. I'm sure I anticipated it, but I didn't anticipate the magnitude of it. I'm very grateful that I'd made that decision though, because where we are today is incredible. That's a rocky transition. So today everything runs like clockwork basically. We have a lot of growth ahead of us that seems almost like it's just going to happen, we're just going to keep growing for a long time. But we had to set the table we had to build our organism as a company into a very different form than what it had been when it was just me. And that molting process it was very painful. I don't pretend that the scaling decision is the right decision, it's very much a personal one. I've certainly lived that. If the version of me that made the decision to scale the company knew everything that was coming, it would have been a much harder decision to make. You kind of have to have a little bit of naive optimism even to make that leap.
Imke Feldmann (01:00:57):
I can imagine that once you get these things figured out and with the dynamic that the product has, that has a good chance to get it going into a very successful business, I believe.
Rob Collie (01:01:10):
Well, with your profile and with the growing demand for these sorts of services, the percentage of no that you have to say is just going to keep going up.
Imke Feldmann (01:01:20):
Yeah. But I made my decision and that's just fine.
Rob Collie (01:01:25):
I'm very supportive of that decision. I don't have any criticism of it, again, especially knowing what I know now. But if there's going to be come a point where you're going to be saying yes 1% of the time, and the answer to that is ultimately, well, you just raise your rates, which is also very difficult to do. In the end, it's almost like an auction for your services. You need to run yourself like Google. There's a 40 hour block of Imke time coming up for availability. We'll just put it on eBay.
Imke Feldmann (01:01:59):
I mean, it's just nice to be able to choose with whom you work with. That's just nice. And I earned enough money, so that's fine. So I'm happy with that.
Rob Collie (01:02:12):
How do you choose who you work with? Is it mostly based on industry? Is it mostly based on job function that you're helping? Or is it more about the specific people? There's all kinds of things that could... Let's say if I came to your website today, I filled out your contact form, what are the things that I could say in that contact for a message that would lead you to say no, versus leads you to say maybe?
Imke Feldmann (01:02:37):
What I really like to do is to work with finance directors. So basically not people exactly like me, but I like to see that the managers approached me and they have an interest in the product itself and also therefore an interest to push it into their departments. So this is for me, a very, very good starting point because it's an area I'm familiar with. I know that there's enough critical support to get the decisions that have to be made and maybe also push IT to help with certain things. This is really one of my favorite set ups, I would say.
Rob Collie (01:03:19):
Yeah, we do a lot of work with finance departments as well. How long does sort of your average relationship run with a client? How long do you end up working with the same organization on average?
Imke Feldmann (01:03:31):
That's hard to say, that's really completely different. It can be the initial five days kickoff where we set up a PNL statement connect all the finance data and they go along with that. And basically, never hear again, or just occasionally hear again, "Can you help me with this problem or that problem?" And it could also be going on for years, basically with breaks in between of course, but some customers, they come every now and then when they want to expand things. Now I have a customer that I'm working on some hours or even days ever week since over a year by now.
Rob Collie (01:04:15):
That sounds similar to my experience as a freelancer, when it was just me, less similar to our business today, a little bit less. I mean, I think it's still more similar than not. It's just that the dial has moved a little bit.
Imke Feldmann (01:04:32):
So how long are your engagements then, usually?
Rob Collie (01:04:35):
Most of our engagements are, if we start out doing kind of that kickoff you're talking about, we started like a project with people, that tends to not be the end. We don't typically have people just immediately vanish after that because that's usually the point at which, I mean, they've got something working already, very often after the first week or so of working with a client, they've usually got some really amazing things built already at that point. But at the same time, that's really just at the beginning of the appetite. Usually there are things that are not done even in that initial solution that even if they could figure it out for themselves, which sometimes they could, once they've seen what the possibilities are like, I'm sure you see this too. This dynamic I'm going to describe is one that you're familiar with.
Imke Feldmann (01:05:20):
Of course.
Rob Collie (01:05:21):
It's not about our business. It's about the technology and sort of how it meets the people. Someone comes to us and they're almost by definition, if they're going to hire us, they're in on the idea of Power BI, they're in on the idea of the Power platform. But after the first week of working with us, they're three times as in, they're just so much more in than they even imagined they could be. Because now they could see like, "Okay, this is real. We made all of that progress in that amount of time. And the ROI on getting the magical stuff up and running sooner is better to press the gas pedal and get there faster, even if you could muddle your way through it." Saving the cost of us helping them isn't a good trade-off for them.
Imke Feldmann (01:06:08):
Yup, that's true.
Rob Collie (01:06:11):
And that was a hard thing for me to get my head around when I was a solo practitioner, when I was a freelancer. I was almost trying to not bill hours. I was like, "Now you can do this for yourself." I was telling clients that they needed to do things for themselves that they didn't want to do for themselves.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:29):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:06:29):
They're like, "No, we actually want you to." And so another luxury that I had as a freelancer that we've had to grow out of as a company, I'm really interested to hear what your thoughts are about this. So when I was a freelancer and I had more demand for my services than I had time, and I did live in that world for a while, I had the luxury of not putting myself fully on their side of the table, meaning they manage the project. If there was a need for something, I wasn't going to do anything unless I was directly asked for it, which is what you want from a consultant, you don't want a consultant going off and doing all kinds of crazy work.
Imke Feldmann (01:07:08):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:07:10):
But there's a stronger version of this [inaudible 01:07:11] is that I wouldn't even suggest anything beyond what they had asked me for. And it wasn't that I had all kinds of ideas and I was withholding them, I just wasn't doing that. I viewed myself as a service that they came to with their demands and I would fulfill their demands and then they would leave and they would come back when they needed me, that's how I sort of defined my role. And what we've learned over time is that that's actually a disservice to the client to not help them sort of expand their picture of what's possible. We've even had clients who started out working with me in the Rob a LA carte model where I was just like a one-way interface, you came to me and then I do work, right?
Rob Collie (01:07:53):
And as a company, we've had clients that started off in that mode with me and then transitioned to other people. And again like that cultural practice kind of got inherited to the company in the early stages of our existence. And we've had clients, early clients, who've been with us for years, come back to us later and say, "Hey, it would have been better for us if you'd been a little bit more proactive in terms of suggesting how we could improve our operation in general." And we've heard that signal and we've transitioned, we've absolutely transformed, but we are no longer the Rob style. This is the lesson that we learned years ago and we've gone through the learning curve and the process of getting better about being better advisors.
Imke Feldmann (01:08:33):
What do you mean by that? What do your clients need in terms of suggestions or improvements? Their basic finance processes?
Rob Collie (01:08:41):
I'll answer that with an example. And it will be a halfway factual example that came from our history, but also I'll sort of halfway fictionalize it to make it easier to understand.
Imke Feldmann (01:08:53):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (01:08:53):
This is a very truthy example. So let's say we were building dashboards reports for a particular company for a long time. And we knew that the way these dashboards, these reports were being used, was to inform people on particular decisions that they need to make, of course, right? But we know, because we've been part of their culture and their team for so long, we know what that looks like. We know that the person who's using this report, that role, then turns around and goes to this other system, this other line of business system and make certain adjustments, okay. This client came back to us and said, "Hey, it would have been great if two years earlier than when it came up, you had suggested that we start doing some sort of Power Apps integration here, or Power Automate, Flow, whatever, right, to make the action taking portion of that process less clumsy." Now we never asked you P3 if there was anything you could do there, okay?
Imke Feldmann (01:09:55):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:09:56):
"But eventually we discovered on our own that that was a possibility and we formed the goal to do it." This is an example from like 2016, right? So this conversation happened like five years ago, but it's still like three years into the history of the company, right? And they said, "Look, if you had your eyes a little bit wider open, and I'd been okay with this suggestion," in other words, in some ways we are so, especially back then, we were so obsessed with this idea of being the good guys, right? But we're still like this. We don't do any work for a client that's not good for the client. We don't suggest projects that will build revenue just to build revenue. I think most consulting firms very much still do. So this still makes people like us and yourself different, right?
Rob Collie (01:10:42):
We were so obsessed with that principle that we wouldn't even suggest things to the client that we're amazing for them. And so we have learned our lesson there. We're not pushy, it's not like a used car sales dealership or whatever, but we're much more conscious of the entire ecosystem that's going on at the clients, the bigger picture. And just because a client hasn't formed an idea and asked us if we could do it, that's not the signal, right? We should have our eyes open and be at least open people's eyes to possibilities that would make things genuinely better for them, whether they choose to do it or not, whether they choose to use us to help them do it or not, doesn't matter, we've become better advisors over the years.
Imke Feldmann (01:11:28):
I understand what you mean. That's one reason why I prefer to work with finance directors or people in that area because I can ask them these questions and can speak openly with them, and they sit on the budget and they can then decide if they want to move in that direction or not. And certainly Flow is a product that's helped me a lot in these additional aspects in the past. So these Power Automate things are really a great addition in them for many finance tasks.
Rob Collie (01:12:00):
I think that's a really crucial difference. When you're working with finance directors, you have legitimately walked in their shoes. And so there's an authenticity there when you say, "Hey, I would seriously consider paying some attention to this other portion of your workflow that we could improve." Whereas I had been a software engineer when I was solo, right? I had never been anything. Software engineers weren't hiring me, right?
Imke Feldmann (01:12:30):
Sometimes that's just enough to ask the question, " Just have you considered this or that? Or there are other options as well." And then, I mean, can be a difficult field, but diplomacy is needed and it helps if you know the client for some time just to develop a feeling if they are open to suggestions for improvement, let's say like that. But that makes sense.
Rob Collie (01:12:56):
It's probably easy to imagine being a little bit less proactive with suggesting or expanding the possibilities with a client who doesn't come from an industry you're familiar with, right? So my... You don't need any advice you're doing great. But so my advice to you, if there was such a thing that was necessary, it would be that even outside of your industries of comfort, the lesson that we've learned is that you should be still using basically all of your faculties, just like you would be. It turns out that the nature of problems, the patterns that exist, they span industries. And a versatile brain such as yours really is just as valuable making suggestions outside of your industry of origin as within it. And that was a lesson that we, as an organization, have had to learn.
Rob Collie (01:13:46):
And our consultants have a lot more relevant industry experience than I ever did. Because again, I still don't think we've been hired to help a software engineering organization manage their software product methodology. Maybe we have, I wouldn't know, but still we work with lots of industries that maybe the first time we've ever worked for that industry. And we discover that boy, there's all kinds of things we've done for other industries that ended up being relevant anyway. And it's the nature of the thinker, is I think quite a bit more important even than specific industry experience. I think the industry experience is actually more valuable in just sort of selling. People, I think really overestimate the value of industry experience when helping a particular industry with their data and they underestimate the quality of the thinker that's helping them. And we have just amazing thinkers on our team, and Imke, you clearly are as well. But anyway, you got a good thing going, you don't need to... I'm not saying that you need to change everything you're doing, of course not, you're killing it.
Imke Feldmann (01:14:49):
Let's speak in two or three years, if that's still the thing I want to do. But for the moment, I couldn't be more happy with how the business runs.
Rob Collie (01:14:58):
You're just an amazing story, an amazing person. And I'm glad that we got to do this, we got to spend this time together. It's been a long time coming.
Imke Feldmann (01:15:06):
No it's great to finally talk with you. I mean, we've crossed paths a couple of times before, but never had the chance to chat a bit. So it was a really enjoyable experience.
Rob Collie (01:15:19):
One of the OG Power Pivot crew.
Imke Feldmann (01:15:21):
These were the days.
Rob Collie (01:15:23):
I'm just delighted at your arc.
Imke Feldmann (01:15:26):
Thanks. Thanks Tom as well, nice to meet you.
Announcer (01:15:28):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Chris Rae has had quite the data journey! In his current form, he's the co-creator of MyCoast, an app that helps government entities clean up hazards on coastlines.
He's travelled many paths on his journey, from the banking space to working on Excel and other projects at Microsoft and all points in between and beyond! His unique problem solving process is on full display when he tells the story of how he fixed an electrical problem with a piece of bread!
Follow Chris on Twitter
The Septic Companion by Chris Rae
References in this Episode:
The DoughPacitor (aka BreadPacitor) Video
Chasing Company-Submarine and Drones
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Chris Rae, co-founder of Blue Urchin LLC. Blue Urchin uses apps, computers, and the cloud to help government agencies keep the seashore free of hazards like derelict vessels. But that's not how I know Chris, I know him because he also worked on the Excel team at Microsoft. And like so many people that have been on the show with us, he never set out to have a career in spreadsheets, never intended it. In fact, never really even intended to have a career in computers, and yet here he is. He's also a devastatingly successful author having penned the Septic Companion. While we talk about that book and how it got its completely inscrutable name, he seems to think that title makes sense. But even after hearing his explanation, I'm still not a hundred percent convinced that he isn't pulling my leg.
Rob Collie (00:00:51):
He's an incredibly entertaining fellow and he's constantly cracking me up and entertaining me every time I open Facebook. Near the end, we even dive into one of those stories that he relayed on Facebook, where he uses a piece of bread to fix a piece of electronics. And it's a funny story, it's a silly story and it's true, but there's also something about the spirit of how he proceeded to diagnose that problem that I think really reflects that curiosity that most data professionals possess. That spirit of, we can get to the bottom of this is so perfectly exemplified in this humorous story. There's even a YouTube video to go along with it, if you're interested. A really funny guy, a really nice guy, we had a great chat, so let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:38):
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Announcer (00:01:42):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast with your host, Rob Collie, and your cohost, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business, just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:06):
Welcome to the show. Chris Rae, how are you this fine morning.
Chris Rae (00:02:10):
I am very well. Thank you, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:02:12):
Well, I'm sorry that we pulled you away from the inflating of your boat.
Chris Rae (00:02:19):
I keep missing meetings these days, because the job I have does not actually have that many meetings in it, and so... When you work at Microsoft you're just constantly looking at your computer and thinking, "Oh, there's another meeting now, there's another meeting now." But I have meetings once every two or three days, and so I miss half of them.
Rob Collie (00:02:33):
Yeah, your head's not on that swivel, you're not as alert to it. Yeah, I agree. When you worked at Microsoft, it was, "Oh, am I missing a meeting right now?" But you also look at your calendar in the morning and get a picture of your day, and if you get out of that meeting habit, you really get out of it. We're Facebook friends, but that doesn't mean that I really know what's going on with you, what is your job these days?
Chris Rae (00:02:53):
You're right, we're Facebook friends with capital F's, it's a whole new category of friends.
Rob Collie (00:02:58):
It is. Have we ever even been in the same room together, maybe once?
Chris Rae (00:03:01):
You worked at Excel the same time I worked at Excel, right?
Rob Collie (00:03:03):
No, no, I was gone. I was either over on Bing or on Power Pivot at the time.
Chris Rae (00:03:07):
Oh, I wonder if I was in meetings with you too at Power Pivot, that might be true.
Rob Collie (00:03:11):
Yes. Yes.
Chris Rae (00:03:13):
I worked in investment banking for 10 years in the UK, and then I worked on Excel, and I can tell you how that switch happened, if you're interested, that was another 10 years or something. And then now I run the business with one other guy and we make... Basically, you know these apps that are kind of take a picture of a pothole and send it to the local council and they'll ignore it? We basically make that but for things on the coast. So like tidal flooding and abandoned boats and creosote covered logs and these kind of things, any kind of crap that you'd find that needs to be sent to some state agency, we make the app that you take a picture of it with and we sell it to state agencies.
Rob Collie (00:03:50):
Okay. And is that how you market it? This is the picture taking app where you get the pictures, you ignore them, is that the pitch?
Chris Rae (00:03:55):
I think this actually is the most marketing that we've done on this. It's all kind of word of mouth, [inaudible 00:04:01], once you get into one of these kind of niche-y markets, then people chat about your thing at conference and then you get a couple of emails from people. So yeah, we just marketed by word of mouth, really, and by not doing a terrible job.
Rob Collie (00:04:10):
So is the name of the app ignorecoastalshit.com?
Chris Rae (00:04:13):
It's mycoast.org, actually.
Rob Collie (00:04:15):
Oh, I was close.
Chris Rae (00:04:16):
You're not in a coastal state, right?
Rob Collie (00:04:17):
No, no, no, we are landlocked here in Indiana. Although, I mean, I suppose we have like a little tiny corner that's exposed to a Great Lake.
Chris Rae (00:04:23):
Yeah, I don't think they're going to pay for it.
Rob Collie (00:04:24):
Probably not.
Chris Rae (00:04:25):
Where do I live in Washington if I find an abandoned boat, I have to use my app. And actually, I've got to say, we get all these reports as they come in and there are some really nice abandoned boats. Honestly, some of them are just brand new boats. And so Wes, my business partner and I are like, "Oh man, how on earth did that ended up being abandoned?" And I think some of it is uncle Bob died and they sorted out the house and they sorted out the car, and then everyone just forgot that uncle Bob's boat was still floating around somewhere.
Rob Collie (00:04:53):
The marina owner eventually just unhooks it from the pier and says, "Hey, whatever happens, it's God's will."
Chris Rae (00:05:00):
Yeah, well and some of the abandoned ones are still hooked up and nobody's paid for them for a while. But basically the state needs to get rid of them because eventually they start leaking poisonous things into the sea and that's less good.
Rob Collie (00:05:09):
Maybe that's the pivot for y'all is you become a salvage operation.
Chris Rae (00:05:14):
It's not so much salvage as theft.
Rob Collie (00:05:15):
Okay, yeah. If you did it, here's the thing, you could do it with the state's blessing. These boats are just a problem for the state, right?
Chris Rae (00:05:22):
Actually the most common email we get from just random people on our website is, "Can I go and have this abandoned boat?" There's nothing we can do about it, we just send it on to the state agency. But I've seen the state agency responses and basically, are you willing to put up with six months of disastrous legal headaches in order to get a junky, nearly sinking boats? Or do you want to just get on with your life? It turns out you can't just go and collect a boat that you think nobody wants.
Rob Collie (00:05:46):
Right, okay. There's no squatter's rights or anything if you go live on the boat for a year?
Chris Rae (00:05:50):
I don't know about that part, you'd have to be pretty dedicated to live on like a sinking fishing boat.
Rob Collie (00:05:58):
Well, you got to prove that you want it. So this boat that you're inflating today is not of the abandoned variety.
Chris Rae (00:06:04):
Not yet, no. Do you remember when, I can't remember if this was the case when you worked at Microsoft, but Microsoft to give you some money a year that you had to spend on things that made you fitter. And the first year you'd buy some running shoes and a shirt or something, and then second year you kind of run out of things to spend this money on. And it ended up that both the wife and I were working at Microsoft and so we had a reasonable chunk of money to spend on things that made us fitter, and eventually persuaded the people who ran this program to let me and the wife use both of our allowances to buy one thing. And we bought this inflatable kayak that I already knew you can fit a motor to. So I bought the inflatable kayak on this fitness thing, and then we took the oars, and then I separately bought this motor and we had this power boat of sorts.
Rob Collie (00:06:47):
You don't ski behind it or anything?
Chris Rae (00:06:50):
No, it's not that much power, but we flit around in it with the kids. But the kids have got a bit big and they didn't really fit on it, so I bought a second boat.
Rob Collie (00:06:56):
A second boat, yeah.
Chris Rae (00:06:58):
When you're becoming successful in life, as I am, you can sometimes get a second boat. So I was just inflating that this morning to see if it stayed inflated.
Rob Collie (00:07:08):
I was going to say, because you're inflating the boat indoors, it can't be a 25 footer.
Chris Rae (00:07:13):
No, this is a big boat, well I've got quite a small house, but this is a 12 foot boat, it's in the back yard actually. I can probably see if it's staying inflated.
Rob Collie (00:07:20):
You didn't leave the compressor running, did you?
Chris Rae (00:07:23):
No, no, no, I stopped the compressor when you phoned me, and I thought, "Oh bullock, I've missed that thing."
Rob Collie (00:07:29):
Let's rewind, investment banking.
Chris Rae (00:07:31):
Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:32):
You left all that glory behind for the life of the rest of us, how did you get into investment banking originally?
Chris Rae (00:07:39):
Glory, I did an English degree and at the time McDonald's wasn't hiring, and so my dad said, "Oh look, you like computers and stuff." And I'm like, "Oh yeah, but I didn't want to do the computer stuff for a living, I just kind of do that for a hobby." And he goes, "No, you can come to my office and you do that for a living now." My dad worked for this, he wasn't an accountant, or he isn't an accountant, but he worked for this accountancy company and they basically needed Word macros to do just weird stuff of theirs. And I just went there and wrote some VBA word macros and then they wanted more Word macros and more Word macros. We ended up with this kind of monstrous Word macro project that I was the grand master of. I did that for a couple of years in Edinburgh. And I did some system admin stuff.
Chris Rae (00:08:19):
And then I thought I'd go and get more money somewhere else. And I did a bunch of job interviews in London for a variety of things, initially for Word macros, mostly for lawyers. And then I started doing Excel macros interviews for mostly banks. And I basically got a job at UBS because the guy who was supposed to give me a technical interview was off sick that day, but they were in a hurry to hire somebody. So they turned out, we had a little nice chat about where I lived and what my hobbies were and things, and then they offered me a job. And then I was basically doing kind of IT support, but for spreadsheet stuff, but they were monster spreadsheets.
Chris Rae (00:08:54):
And I kind of switched from there and I ended up working on the trading floor for the department, and quant departments at investment banks are the people that do the complicated mathematics stuff. And actually at university, part of the reason I ended up doing an English degree was that I failed Math 101 four times in a row. And the last time, I basically started doing CS, but you had to pass Math 101 and I just failed it twice, so then I really actually tried to pass it and failed it two more times. And the guy who was my director of studies was this mathematics lecturer. And he's like, "Chris, I think you were future lies somewhere else." And so I did the English degree, and then of course I ended up working in a department full of mathematicians and me, but both used to keep referring to me as Dr. Rae because they assumed that I had a PhD in mathematics. And I'm like, "I'm just not going to disabuse you of this in case it results in me getting fired."
Rob Collie (00:09:45):
Dr. Rae, yeah. So that is of course fascinating, right?
Chris Rae (00:09:49):
It was cool. Yeah, it was a really interesting job if you were young. I mean, we were basically, I don't know how much you know about derivatives, but I'll give you the one sentence summary of derivatives, they're basically insurance policies. And so the reason derivative started is because farmers want to buy grain feed animals, but they have to buy it this year and they have to buy next year. And they don't care about the grain price, they're not interested in whether it's going up or down and so don't want to speculate on that. So they would buy insurance against the grain price, so they buy options to buy grain for next year for the same price you bought it for this year, or 5% more or something. And then you are guaranteed by the person you bought that option for that they will sell you that grain at that price if you wanted, but you pay a premium upfront to have that option.
Chris Rae (00:10:30):
And so derivatives are all just that kind of stuff, like there's people who turn it into finance, there's Chinese people who want to buy IBM shares, but they don't care about which way the dollar is going to go. So they'll say, "I want to buy these IBM shares in yen." And somebody else is going to deal with the dollar risk on this. So if the dollar goes up or down, somebody else is going to take the hedge on it, and I'll pay them a premium upfront because I don't know about where the dollar is going to go and I don't care about it. So we were doing all that kind of stuff.
Chris Rae (00:10:54):
And as you can imagine, a lot of that ends up at least being initially priced out in spreadsheets, because once you've traded a few of these or whatever, you have it in some backend system and it's updating every day and all that kind of stuff. But to work out what you're going to sell to someone or to chit-chat with someone about the kind of thing you're going to sell, that all happens in spreadsheets. And so I was making a few of those spreadsheets, lots of actual mathematicians in my department were writing C++ models around off the back of those. Then I wrote the wrapper thing that held all of their models and held this temple of library spreadsheets, and that kind of stuff.
Rob Collie (00:11:22):
What was that like in terms of having been someone who had discovered you weren't really that into math? And now here you are surrounded by math people in a department that is essentially doing nothing but math, I'm not getting the impression though, that you were terribly uncomfortable there.
Chris Rae (00:11:40):
There were occasions where it became apparent that I knew nothing at all about rounding up numbers, but usually it doesn't really matter. I don't even know why you needed math for a compsci degree, to be honest. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, you've got a computer that does most of this stuff. And as I say, there were people writing these derivative pricing models that were bonafide legit, solid mathematicians, that's the top end of mathematics jobs. But to be able to plug those in and say, "I want to buy this and sell that." You're just messing around in spreadsheets, you're not doing any complicated mathy stuff. And so I generally kind of got away with that. And also the more you are an expert at complicated math, the less you're an expert about talking to derivative traders. And so you often need a bit of a mixture of people who really know how the thing works and people who can somewhat explain it to a normal person.
Rob Collie (00:12:28):
This is something that I'm very, very familiar with is that, unlike you, probably, in high school I identified as a math person, I was captain of the calculus team and all of that.
Chris Rae (00:12:38):
Oh, wow.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:39):
There was no calculus team.
Rob Collie (00:12:41):
There was a calculus team, we went to the final four in Florida.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:45):
We just had a math club, we did more than just calculus.
Rob Collie (00:12:48):
We had that too. I was president of the New Alpha Beta chapter at my high school. And the first meeting I convened, I told her everyone, "Listen, we all know that this is just a matter of padding our resumes for college, right?" And everyone nods. And I say, "So meeting adjourn forever." The sponsor was happy. The teacher was happy. Everybody was happy. That allowed us to go do the serious thing like calculus competitions. My daughter was working on a calculus assignment the other night and I was completely incapable of helping her. I remember it was something that used to be really simple, it was a limit as X approaches, infinity type of thing. That used to be basic. It has no meaning whatsoever in normal everyday life. It is not relevant to anything that I do. There are many, many products that we use that I'm sure weren't possible without calculus. You don't need calculus to operate the product.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:47):
You guys are killing me.
Rob Collie (00:13:48):
I know, I know. Listen, Tom has an advanced degree in math, right? But even he doesn't use it and he knows it, it's okay.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:54):
Oh, I don't use it? I'm just counting the number of times you've insulted me in the past few minutes.
Rob Collie (00:13:59):
That's just arithmetic. In second grade, we were capable of counting insults, we don't need scientific notation for this.
Thomas LaRock (00:14:05):
Oh yeah, this is not an outlier in any way.
Rob Collie (00:14:08):
That's true. That's true. Yeah, you can probably anticipate how many times Rob will accidentally insult-
Chris Rae (00:14:14):
I mean, how many times does he normal insult you, probably just extrapolate.
Rob Collie (00:14:16):
Yeah, just don't even worry about it, it's just many. Yeah, it's just some number.
Chris Rae (00:14:20):
So basically it was a race to [inaudible 00:14:22].
Rob Collie (00:14:22):
This has been a theme on this show sort of over and over again. There are so many people who are incredibly competent and successful professionals in data related fields who did not identify like that at all growing up, and I think that's wonderful as opposed to a problem. I had no idea that you were one of these people. I assumed, because I knew that you'd worked in sort of the quant shop at an investment bank, I assumed that you had come up through a math major.
Chris Rae (00:14:50):
Yeah, well so did my boss. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:51):
Yeah, so there you go, I had something in common.
Chris Rae (00:14:55):
Yeah, I was going to head on to the segue for how I ended up working for Microsoft was, back when we shipped one version every three years, we'd get a year into specking the next version and then we'd trot around some PMs around a few customers to see what they thought of it. And then what always happened was you'd turn up at the customers and they're like, "Oh yeah, well, that's really fascinating, but can you fix the following really important bugs that we have for the current versus?" You kind of look them all up and it's like it won't fix. So the Excel team would send people to investment banking always, and the IT people would come onto the trading floor and say, "Look, who wants to talk to Microsoft about Excel?" And so we were the core of heavy use of Excel on the trading floor, so we volunteered to do that.
Chris Rae (00:15:33):
And I ended up being our guy who talked to the Excel team, and Dave Gaynor came out with a bunch of people and they chit-chatted to us about the new features they had in Excel, and we berating them about the list of 10 bugs we really want to fix. And afterwards we all went out for drinks and I thought, that'd be kind of fun, I could actually work at Excel and fix these stupid bugs.
Chris Rae (00:15:54):
And so I sent an email to Dave Gaynor just because he looked like the most important person there as far as I could see. So I sent him an email and I said, "Look, I can come and work for you if you'd like?" And he didn't reply. And I thought, it's a bit weird. You can't go poaching your biggest customer's employees. And so I didn't think anything of it, it was just kind of a random thing. And then about six months later, I got an email from him saying, "All right, I'm really sorry, this went in my junk mail. And yeah, you should come out and interview." So I came out here, I live in Seattle, I came out here and it was July, it was really nice sunshine, it was warm. There was that Seafair thing where they get boats out.
Rob Collie (00:16:29):
Oh yeah. Yeah, and the Blue Angels.
Chris Rae (00:16:31):
Yeah, right, right. So it was really nice. The wife came out too, we had a lovely week. We went hiking, we went camping and then I got back home and they offered me a job. It was less money than I was getting paid in banking. I mean, everything's less money than you get paid in banking. And so I kind of thought, "No, I don't know. I don't know if I can be bothered up rooting everybody to do this." And so I said no. And then the wife got a bit fed up with her job, she was actually also working for the same company, but doing other stuff. Our team was in charge of making risky bets with people's money, and her team was the credit risk control department. And so she and I were actually not really supposed to ever talk to each other.
Chris Rae (00:17:04):
But anyways, so she got slightly fed up of her job, I got a bit fed up of my job and I emailed Dave Gaynor and said, "Look, you know that job you offered me six months ago?" And he's like, "Oh yeah, okay." And I'm like, "Could I have it in eight months or something like that? And then I'll just take some time off for a while." I mean, I think at this point he's like, "Whatever. I mean, this guy's never going to turn up, so sure. Okay, why don't you do that?" And then so we did that. We both quit our jobs. We drove around Europe a bit, bought a travel trailer, I'd call it a caravan but I think you'd call it a travel trailer.
Rob Collie (00:17:31):
I've seen the movie Snatch where they call it a caravan.
Chris Rae (00:17:34):
Okay. Yeah, so that.
Rob Collie (00:17:35):
I learn everything about your country of origin from Guy Ritchie movies.
Chris Rae (00:17:39):
That's both surprising and alarming.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:42):
What about Outlander?
Rob Collie (00:17:43):
Nope, never saw that. Just Guy Ritchie movies.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:45):
Just Guy Ritchie movies?
Rob Collie (00:17:46):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:46):
Oh, all right.
Rob Collie (00:17:47):
Yeah, that's it.
Chris Rae (00:17:49):
Yeah, so then I moved to Seattle in October and then it started raining for six months, I want to say.
Rob Collie (00:17:56):
Oh, at least, yeah.
Chris Rae (00:17:57):
And my wife is Greek, and so that went really well.
Rob Collie (00:18:00):
She's used to that, that oppressive blanket of clouds that rolls in and stacks up against the mountains and never leaves.
Chris Rae (00:18:06):
In my defense, she lived in London for 10 years as well, so it wasn't like she wasn't going into this with her eyes open. But Seattle is a bit grayer than London, and I discovered the UK you'll have sunny, wintry days a fair bit, but not so true in Seattle, it's really overcast all the time. So at that point I discovered the Greek people were solar-powered and I'd made a terrible error.
Rob Collie (00:18:24):
It's an adjustment. I really struggled having grown up in Florida. I struggled the first couple of winters in Seattle. It was rough, I feel it.
Chris Rae (00:18:31):
Yeah. I'm from Scotland, so I didn't really mind it, actually.
Rob Collie (00:18:34):
It's not that the Scottish weather prepares you for it, it's just the Scottish temperament that prepares you for-
Chris Rae (00:18:39):
Well, I think it's all kind of tied in a bit, isn't it? We were camping last weekend, the last camping trip of the year. And it started raining and everyone else there is like, "Oh, great, it started raining." And I'm like, "Don't you think the countryside smells so nice and stuff when it rains?" And everyone's like, "No."
Rob Collie (00:18:59):
So that was fun, that transition. At what point in this timeline, did you take the lengthy sabbatical to become a best-selling author of the septic companion?
Chris Rae (00:19:10):
It was a bit odd going from the business of financial products to the business of software. Because when I worked at UBS it'd be like, "Oh, this seems kind of fine, let's ship it and we'll just pull it in a couple of hours of it's not working properly." Because we weren't making money off that software, we were making money off stuff we made for that software. So at Microsoft, you can't just ship this bug and hope to fix it and service [inaudible 00:19:30] one, that's not how it works. And so it's a bit weird, we were doing different things that pay the money. That was after a couple of years, once I was working at Microsoft, I was commuting on, do you remember the Connector, the bus that Microsoft provided?
Rob Collie (00:19:45):
Yep, yep.
Chris Rae (00:19:45):
Yeah, and so I live in Seattle, but Microsoft's in Redmond. And so I was taking this bus, and it's like 40 minutes or something each way, and you're just sitting on a bus. And I had, for a long time had this, for like 20 years at that point, I'd had this website called englishnumbertwoamerican.com, which I set up, God it'd be mid '90s or something like that. I mean, I wrote HTML in notepad, and it was just a list of British words with American translation. So there's a whole bunch of these things, so I think that might be in the first website. But I wrote this list, and I had sort of been thinking for a while, it got longer and longer and longer, and I'd sort of been thinking for a while I might do something bookish with it, and I'd just used those Connector bus rides to turn it into a book, basically. This is a self-published book, this is as successful a book as anyone could just pay some money and have a book that appears on Amazon.
Chris Rae (00:20:37):
But weirdly, actually, I did send it to two publishers before I went down the self-publishing. And they wrote back and they were like, "Oh, here's a bunch of things you could change, and we don't want it right now but if you completely redo it in this way, then fine." I mean, I knew perfectly well... You know what books are like, I'm going to make 15 bucks a year out of this and I'm not going to sit there rejigging it for this publisher guy to have it the way he wants it, I'm just going to do whatever I want. And so I did the self-publishing thing.
Chris Rae (00:21:02):
And then there's a little community of people who write British-American crossover things. And I was friends with this guy, he was an American living in the UK, he had written a blog that he turned into a book and got actually published published. But anyway, Mike Harling, I'll plug your book, Postcards from Across the Pond. He wrote this book, so he published it. I think I maybe wrote the back cover blurb for his book or something like that.
Chris Rae (00:21:23):
And he sends it to his publisher, and they actually sent me a message, this is after I'd self-published and was selling it linked from my website. They sent me a message saying, "Oh, we'd actually like to publish your book, to really publish it." And I was like, "Oh, that's amazing." And they said, "Pretty much we will publish it as it is. I mean, we quite like it." I said, "That's great. Yeah, I'm happy to switch." And they said, "How many are you selling a year?" And I was like, "I don't know 0 or 100 or something." And they're like, "Yeah, I don't know if we'd be able to sell that many." And so at that point I'm stuck with the position that either I can continue making $200 a year and having a self-published book, or I can make 100 and have a truly published by a publisher book. I just followed the money, too long in banking, I think.
Rob Collie (00:22:10):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). [inaudible 00:22:12].
Thomas LaRock (00:22:12):
Would this book have the phrase Bob's your uncle and the translation, or is it just words?
Chris Rae (00:22:18):
It's mostly words.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:19):
Mostly words. So it didn't do phrases or idioms, just words?
Chris Rae (00:22:23):
Well, but I did... There's some super common phrases, I'm just looking it up in my own book here.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:28):
Okay. So like lift is elevator?
Rob Collie (00:22:31):
Can we have like an audio book moment here where, as the author of the Septic Companion, will you read us a passage?
Thomas LaRock (00:22:37):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:22:38):
We're here for story time with Chris Rae.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:40):
The sleeping policemen.
Chris Rae (00:22:41):
The sleeping policemen is in here, this fine book available on Amazon, The Septic's Companion by Chris Rae.
Rob Collie (00:22:54):
We'll link it, and we'll of course make it an affiliate link so that we, P3, can make an extra $5 a year.
Chris Rae (00:23:00):
You guys could probably give up working at this point, I think.
Rob Collie (00:23:02):
Yeah. I mean, once we link it, yeah. That's what it's all about.
Chris Rae (00:23:05):
"The sleeping policemen, noun, speed bump. The name probably derives from a time when narcoleptic policemen were employed to slow down traffic." It says here. Some of this book is not factually correct, and I did very little research, because, well these days you could just look it up on Wikipedia and kind of transliterate it, I think that's what you do if you're writing a book like this. But back then I was just kind of making it up all myself really. I occasionally get emails from people saying some of this book is not factually correct.
Rob Collie (00:23:35):
So I've always wanted to know why is it called The Septic's Companion? What is that?
Chris Rae (00:23:40):
You know this Cockney rhyming slang business, where it's very much a London thing, but it's recognized across the UK, where you have a two word couplet and you say the first word, like butcher's hook is a phrase. And you say the first word, which is butchers, but what you're meaning is a word that rhymes with the second word, which is hook. So the Cockney rhyming slang for a look is butcher's hook, but people just say butchers. So you'd say, "Give me a butchers of that thing." And there's a lot of Cockney rhyming slang something that is actually in quite common use in the UK.
Rob Collie (00:24:10):
I have never been more confused than I am at this moment right now. I have no idea what was just explained. I'm more confused after the explanation than I was before.
Chris Rae (00:24:21):
How about this one? Do you know the phrase lose your bottle, is that a British thing? It means to give up on something or chicken out or something.
Rob Collie (00:24:27):
Well I do now, I didn't know it before.
Chris Rae (00:24:29):
Okay. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was I translated, but that's the thing that most British people will recognize that phrase. That's Cockney rhyming slang because it was bottle and glass and glass rhymes with arse. And so losing your arse, posterior is like losing your ability to do something. Anyway so septic is British slang for American, because septic tank, yank, basically.
Rob Collie (00:24:53):
Oh my God damn.
Chris Rae (00:24:54):
And it also exists in New Zealand and Australia, Australians call American's seppos, which is like an abbreviation of septic.
Rob Collie (00:25:02):
Wow.
Chris Rae (00:25:03):
Just in case you thought it wasn't complicated enough.
Rob Collie (00:25:04):
We're going to have to just move past this, that this is just a game that is played over in that corner of the world, that makes no sense at all to anyone else.
Chris Rae (00:25:12):
I mean, America has its share of weird language things. I think the reason that you don't have more is just that this country is only kind of five minutes old, you've not been conquered by anybody.
Rob Collie (00:25:21):
We are five minutes old, and really hoping that we get to be six minutes old.
Chris Rae (00:25:24):
I assume I just get to talk as much as anyone in this thing, is that right?
Rob Collie (00:25:27):
Oh yeah, totally. Yeah.
Chris Rae (00:25:27):
Yeah, excellent. Okay, you know this crazy story that I've told a lot of people about, Kissinger in China, one of the actual good things that Nixon did was improve relationships with China. And when Nixon was visiting [Deng Xiaoping 00:25:38], Kissinger got chatting with Deng through a translator obviously, and they were just kind of making small talk and they ended up chatting about the French Revolution. And Kissinger asked Deng Xiaoping through the translator, what he thought the impact of the French revolution was on Chinese politics or on the politics of Asia, the interpreter translated it. And Deng Xiaoping sat for a little while and then said through the interpreter, "It's too soon to tell." It's this is classic, it's only been a few hundred years, difficult to tell whether that's really changed anything.
Thomas LaRock (00:26:14):
That just underscores the long game that China is willing to play.
Chris Rae (00:26:19):
Exactly, yeah, right.
Rob Collie (00:26:21):
Wow, it's too soon.
Chris Rae (00:26:23):
So the Septic's Companion is from the word septic, which is an offensive term about Americans. And somebody pointed out that you shouldn't really write offensive things about the people you're intending selling the book to.
Thomas LaRock (00:26:32):
It's not offensive, it's short for yank.
Chris Rae (00:26:34):
Yeah, but it is septic tank, which you probably... They could have picked something nicer for a rhyming slang for Americans.
Rob Collie (00:26:41):
I would say that in order for us to be insulted, we first of all have to understand that it was referring to us.
Thomas LaRock (00:26:47):
Yeah, we're too dumb to know we're being insulted, so that's the first thing.
Rob Collie (00:26:50):
No, no, no, no, it's not about being dumb in this case. I mean, this is an inscrutable reference, this is one case where the Americans don't have to apologize for not understanding it, this is just stupid.
Chris Rae (00:27:03):
Have you ever heard of James May, he was a guy on this TV program called Top Gear?
Rob Collie (00:27:06):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:27:07):
Yes.
Chris Rae (00:27:07):
So when I was posing this book, you have to have a blurb from, a kind of endorsement from somebody. And so I got a couple of endorsements from other people in this community of people who wrote things about Britain and America. But I sent a copy of that book to James May and said, "If you want to write an endorsement, that would be great." And he sent me one back and it said, "This would be an invaluable use to any Americans visiting the United Kingdom, assuming they could read."
Thomas LaRock (00:27:32):
Wow. He's not wrong.
Rob Collie (00:27:35):
Is that on the cover?
Chris Rae (00:27:36):
No. Well, I thought that might be pushing it a bit much.
Rob Collie (00:27:44):
Do you think more British people have purchased this book than Americans?
Chris Rae (00:27:47):
No, I think it's mostly Americans, although it is a bit of a mixture. It's probably like 50 books a year or something I sell now, but of those, I sell like two thirds of them at Christmas time. It's the kind of thing that you buy as a gift for people you don't really like, you haven't got any idea what to buy them and you just buy them like some crap off the internet. But interestingly, I'd like to bring this back to data, actually, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:28:07):
Please, let's do that.
Chris Rae (00:28:08):
The way it works is that I self-publish it, it goes through this kind of print-on-demand company. And so any bookseller can theoretically just asked for a copy of my book, and select my book from these people and I don't get involved at all. But the only real booksellers that show it are the online ones, because they just get all the books and as soon as somebody orders one, they actually go and get it.
Chris Rae (00:28:27):
Now Amazon obviously will have an algorithm for how many of these they need to give in stock, and generally this book will show up as available on Prime and it can be shipped to you. But at Christmas they run that every single year a third of the way through December. I mean, I think I might sell 70 books if Amazon didn't run out of stock of it every single Christmas. And how does your algorithm not work for this? The first year I was thinking, "Oh, BML or something, they're going to catch up." But no, no, every single year they just run out of stock of this book. And of course, because it's a crappy Christmas present you're buying for someone, you can't get it after Christmas... I'll have you know, this is like the 16,000th most popular book in travel/United Kingdom.
Rob Collie (00:29:05):
Well, I think they have a filter in their algorithm which is, does this SKU matter, right?
Chris Rae (00:29:13):
I'll have you know, this is the 16,000th most popular book in travel/United Kingdom.
Rob Collie (00:29:19):
Well, we should introduce you to Bill Jelen.
Chris Rae (00:29:21):
I've met him actually on one of these Excel trips, because he was an MVP, right? He was one of the vocal MVPs?
Thomas LaRock (00:29:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:29:28):
That's right, and he runs Holy Macro! Books.
Chris Rae (00:29:31):
That is quite a good name actually.
Rob Collie (00:29:32):
Yeah it is, isn't it? It's something else. It's the kind of name that you hear it and I can tell, "Why didn't I think of that?" Right?
Chris Rae (00:29:37):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Rob Collie (00:29:39):
But yeah, our book is 100% printed and published through his company, which then supplies the books to exactly the same sort of distributor that you're talking about, who then sells it to Amazon and Barnes & Noble and all of those people. But we don't print on demand, we maintain an inventory. I mean, this could really boost your profits, at 50 to 70 units a year, maybe you could get it up to 90 or 100 units a year by staying in stock during the holidays-
Chris Rae (00:30:04):
I'm all ears.
Rob Collie (00:30:05):
And you get a larger percentage of the revenue.
Chris Rae (00:30:08):
We should get my people to your people about this, I think.
Rob Collie (00:30:10):
Yeah, the publishing department, yeah. They're currently on a supplier trip to Brazil where they're evaluating the paper crop down there, but they'll be back.
Chris Rae (00:30:19):
I don't know, maybe your book isn't as eco as mine, but my book is available on Kindle.
Rob Collie (00:30:25):
Probably. Was yours written before mine?
Chris Rae (00:30:27):
Well yeah, probably. But I mean at the end of the day it's, if you're second you're last.
Rob Collie (00:30:31):
Second place is the first loser. A friend of mine at Microsoft used to work for a development manager who'd been an ex-football player at Florida State, and no lie, the front of this guy's house he had a sign over the front door that said second place is the first loser. And whenever the kids came into the house, they had to jump up and touch that sign.
Chris Rae (00:30:49):
Wow, my kids are quite young so I'm only starting this kids in sport thing. And I've discovering that what I have to keep my fingers crossed about is that neither of them are any good at any of these sport things.
Rob Collie (00:30:59):
Or at least not interested.
Chris Rae (00:31:00):
Because then you end up just driving around.
Rob Collie (00:31:02):
Let me straighten you out on this. What you're describing is the worst case scenario in my experience. Yes, interested, but not any good means that you're still being dragged around to all these events.
Chris Rae (00:31:13):
But you're not going to ones in other states or wherever.
Rob Collie (00:31:16):
Oh no, no, no, it turns out that the whole travel sports thing, it's been realized that that's a really, really good business and the more inclusive, the better, right? You can't just have the really, really talented kids because that's a small market, you need all of the kids, right? What you don't want is a kid that's interested in all this, and so you're driving them around and everything, but you're just watching and going, "This is never going anywhere." It deprives you of the enthusiasm that would sustain you while at the same time dragging you out into the same crappy weather over and over again that the future semi-pro kids are also experiencing.
Chris Rae (00:31:48):
But then if I got them disinterested and useless, then I have to drag them out the door every Wednesday to this stupid soccer practice that I didn't even want to go to anyway.
Rob Collie (00:31:57):
Right, it's a very delicate balance.
Chris Rae (00:31:58):
You got to have them good and interested in it.
Rob Collie (00:32:01):
You might want to get one of those signs, second place is the first loser.
Chris Rae (00:32:03):
I think I like the opposite sign and then try and put them off this whole thing.
Rob Collie (00:32:08):
So despite all of the riches brought to you by The Septic's Companion, you weren't one of those people that let success get to your head and sort of get lazy?
Chris Rae (00:32:18):
No, I kept working at Microsoft just for the love of the craft.
Rob Collie (00:32:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris Rae (00:32:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:32:22):
But now we do this other thing, the app and the boat theft.
Chris Rae (00:32:26):
Yeah, and it's much better. I mean, honestly, I mean, as I said to a few people, I've only ever worked for companies that have more than a hundred thousand employees or fewer than three, and so I'm missing that kind of middle segment. Well, as you know yourself, you've done the same kind of path, but your business is more successful than mine, but you've got that thing where a lot of what you do in running a business is not really the thing that you thought you were going to do. I mean, ostensibly, I'm kind of doing computer programming in this business, but we're selling to the US government.
Chris Rae (00:32:55):
So I spend half my time filling in forms that say, "I don't do any business with Iran." And then going and getting them notarized. And then realizing it was me that was supposed to invoice these people. And I've no idea how much it is for, and I think we only said it in a call and didn't write it down anywhere. Yeah, that's all the stuff about running your own business. Like if you run out of pens, then you have to go and get some pens, it's not like you go to the cupboard at the end of the hall.
Rob Collie (00:33:18):
That continues. As you scale your boat confiscation empire, you will discover that that only gets worse.
Chris Rae (00:33:25):
There'd be less paperwork in a criminal enterprise, I think.
Rob Collie (00:33:27):
Probably. Yeah, that's true. But I mean what you're looking for is one of those state sponsored criminal enterprises. Those are very profitable.
Chris Rae (00:33:35):
Oh, so I go and get these boots and then split it with like the State of South Carolina.
Rob Collie (00:33:39):
Yeah, that's where the money is. So I encourage you to maybe go watch some Guy Ritchie films or something, get up to speed on what the underworld's really like. You've already taken the first steps.
Chris Rae (00:33:52):
Yeah, no, there definitely would be something ramping up if I was to go down this path.
Rob Collie (00:33:55):
Yeah, and you've already got some of those relationships with the local officials.
Chris Rae (00:33:59):
I already know what my current ledger price is going to be, and that's the hard part.
Rob Collie (00:34:01):
Oh, well see, and you say you're not a crook.
Chris Rae (00:34:04):
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I've actually been for drinks with them.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:07):
No, I just think the rules have changed over the years and there's more scrutiny on certain things.
Chris Rae (00:34:12):
I know. Man, I've got to say, at least all of the government people I've worked with have been squeaky clean about letting you pay for even drinks or food or anything. As I say, the field that I'm in, which is basically sort of coastal hazards, everyone is super careful about not inadvertently taking gifts from people, even when we've tried to give them drinks or food or whatever, they will not do it. So maybe these are the wrong local government people I'm in with, to be honest.
Rob Collie (00:34:35):
Or maybe they're just incredibly savvy evaluators of [inaudible 00:34:39], right?
Chris Rae (00:34:39):
Yeah, maybe.
Rob Collie (00:34:40):
Like, this drink could cost me my job, and all I would have gotten is a drink. If you really want to get serious about this you're going to have to start offering to buy them a seaside home.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:50):
No a boat, you should offer to buy them a boat.
Chris Rae (00:34:53):
Oh, interesting. Yeah, get them a boat. That's true. I mean the other thing, I suppose they might be thinking, "If I let Chris Rae buy me a drink then he's going to think he can take another six months with this 10 minute project he's doing for us, and I'd rather he didn't feel like he has that satisfaction."
Rob Collie (00:35:07):
So without giving away any trade secrets, what's the architecture of your solution?
Chris Rae (00:35:11):
It's all on WordPress. The pictures are stored on, there's a DigitalOcean data storage thing, it's basically S3, and we ended up using that after a complicated and painstaking evaluation which revealed to us that we already have logins for DigitalOcean, and so we went with that solution.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:26):
That was your analyses, we already have a login, we couldn't possibly create new logins with a different service.
Chris Rae (00:35:33):
Well, honestly, I think the amount of our time we would expect tracing new logins would have negated the $5 a month it costs us to store all this with DigitalOcean. Because data-wise, there's not actually a huge amount of data on this, we have maybe 20 or 30,000 reports of anything in the system. And that's three data fields and one JPEG, so there's not really that much data on this.
Rob Collie (00:35:54):
Let me help you, put your marketing hat on.
Chris Rae (00:35:56):
It's big data actually, sorry. It's a big data project and it's in the cloud.
Rob Collie (00:36:00):
Another phrase that you need to get really effortless at dropping, which is, best of breed. Oh, you've got a WordPress S3 DigitalOcean, you went and selected a best of breed infrastructure.
Chris Rae (00:36:12):
No, these are premier products.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:14):
A single vendor solution.
Chris Rae (00:36:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:36:17):
But I think you also need to highlight how you work with unstructured data.
Chris Rae (00:36:21):
It's pretty structured actually, to be honest. I mean, theoretically in the comment field, someone could paste [inaudible 00:36:28]. Yeah, and then not that we'd do anything with it, but that would be unstructured data living within our... Yeah, okay, it's unstructured data, it's in the cloud.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:34):
No, the image, the image is unstructured too.
Chris Rae (00:36:36):
Oh, well, it does adhere to kind of JPEG, but the content of the image there might be a log.
Rob Collie (00:36:43):
This is actually one of the ongoing jokes on our podcast that you haven't listened to.
Chris Rae (00:36:47):
No, I listen to it loads of times, I know all the ongoing regular jokes.
Rob Collie (00:36:50):
Sure you do, sure you do. It's the systems that our business acquires and decides to invest in over time, the various line of business systems. Those definitely aren't the random hodgepodge of systems that you would accidentally just sort of like stumble backwards into adopting. No, those are your best of breed infrastructure.
Chris Rae (00:37:06):
This is just my chance to ramble on about anything. When I joined UBS, I was given two computers. So I was on the trading floors, you get your six screens. And I had five screens with this Windows PC, and I have this other screen, it was kind of a big screen. And I got a NeXTstep machine, and they said, "Yeah, so here's your Windows machine, you'll use that for pretty much everything. And here's your NeXTstep, you're going to use that for our risk management platform and a couple of other apps that we haven't managed to port off NeXTstep yet." And it turned out that UBS had double-down on NeXTstep as it's the next big thing, several years beforehand. And for anyone who doesn't know, NeXTstep was the Unix operating system that Steve Jobs did kind of in between Apple the first time and starting Apple the second time. But it wasn't hardware, it was just DOS.
Chris Rae (00:37:50):
And so UBS double-downed on NeXTstep, it was completely out of support. Steve jobs was off doing something else at this point, NeXTstep was kind of sunsetted and UBS were desperately trying to move everything they'd written on NeXTstep off NeXTstep, but you still had it for some apps. And what happened was everyone had been given an NeXTstep machine, and then you get a nice big monitor for the NeXTstep machine. But none of the drivers on the NeXTstep machine had been updated whatsoever, and the mouse cursor moved at the same speed pixels per second as it had done on tiny little monitors.
Chris Rae (00:38:18):
So on my first day at work, I sit down and I've got a switcher between these machines, and I could switch Windows between the NeXTstep machine. And somebody brought me four mouse mats and I'm like, "Oh, no, it's okay, I've already got a mouse mat." And he goes, "No, no, you're going to tape them together." And I'm like, "I don't know if that's going to happen. And so I crank up the NeXTstep machine, and I'm just trying to get across the screen and I realized, "Oh yeah, I'm going to need these four taped together mouse mats." But the funny thing was that NeXTstep, the development language was Objective-C, which was used on NeXTstep.
Rob Collie (00:38:53):
That was the platform.
Chris Rae (00:38:53):
That was the only platform that Objective-C team was used on that. So if you were an Objective-C developer, you had got to Objective-C because you were a NeXTstep guy. And so we ended up, at UBS, we had to hire a bunch of these Objective-C developers because there weren't any. And so it's that usual thing where the thing you're working on dies and you're like, "Well, that's the end of that career." And to translate, no, no, they actually the start at the well-paid part of that career. But we had all these NeXTstep developers, and they were thinking, "The end of UBS, that's the end of Objective-C. Once UBS finally migrates off NeXTstep, that's Objective-C." And then of course that happened, so there was three or four years where nobody was using Objective-C, and now it's the primary development language for the iPhone, so these guys have got another entire career that's kicked off.
Rob Collie (00:39:33):
Oh, because Steve brought the Objective-C sort of like mentality with him to Apple. Well, for a while there, I was thinking that we would make the joke that if it was only able to be used on NeXTstep machines, that it was probably a better termed subjective seat. But if it's now used on Apple, on iOS development then, well damn.
Chris Rae (00:39:53):
Yeah, and it's a weird choice, it's an old language. If somebody had said, "What language is Steve Jobs going to do for the iPhone?" That would not have been in the top 50 ideas that anyone might have had. But it's what ended up happening.
Rob Collie (00:40:04):
It's hard to imagine Steve having an opinion about a programming language.
Chris Rae (00:40:08):
I don't know if it was him, but at least some part of what he'd been at NeXTstep, I assume he took some people between these companies.
Rob Collie (00:40:14):
Yeah, it's probably the people that went with him, yeah. That's probably true.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:18):
You're joking. Right? Because Steve had an opinion about everything.
Rob Collie (00:40:21):
I think an opinion about a programming language would have been in some way beneath him.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:24):
No, it seems to be right in line with his control of everything. Remember how he was like, "We're done with Flash." He wasn't really removed from a lot of these decisions.
Rob Collie (00:40:34):
So say you're done with Flash, and to say that we're going to use Objective-C-
Chris Rae (00:40:38):
To Tom's point, it is a language you can control, right? Because I mean, if it's only your platform it gets used on, nobody's going to update it without you knowing.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:47):
Exactly, that's really what it is. Yeah, just like controlling the app store-
Rob Collie (00:40:51):
Proprietary.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:52):
Proprietary, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:40:53):
Okay, I could see him getting behind proprietary for sure, no two ways about it. I get that, right? But it's not like he had an opinion about the way that Objective-C did their data typing.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:02):
No.
Rob Collie (00:41:03):
That would be a little off-brand for him.
Chris Rae (00:41:04):
No, if he thought about that he probably wouldn't have used it.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:10):
Probably not, right?
Rob Collie (00:41:11):
So any other sort of funny data or Excel related stories?
Chris Rae (00:41:16):
Oh, I lost the company a fair amount of money on it's spreadsheet, if you'd be interested in that? Do you have Excel people listening to this, because this is a bit Excel-ish.
Rob Collie (00:41:24):
We have plenty of Excel people, yeah.
Chris Rae (00:41:26):
Yeah, so basically dividends are an important part of pricing anything like stocks or stock options or whatever, because whenever a dividend comes out, the person who owns the stock is paid a dividend and then the stock price goes down by the amount that the dividend was because you could have bought it the day before and got the dividend, so that all gets kind of factored into the stock price. And when you're doing derivatives, dividends make a big difference because they'll jump you over some threshold that you now have to actually fulfill this contract. I'd say dividends are really important in stock pricing, and what you sometimes sell are derivatives based on indexes, so you would sell S&P 500. So people will buy an index, which is basically like buying every single stock in an index. So when you say we want our portfolio to represent the S&P 500, what you have to really do is buy every stock in the S&P 500. And so you want to buy derivatives based on that, then you need to work out what they're worth with all of the dividends and all these stocks.
Chris Rae (00:42:17):
And so in a normal stock you'll get a dividend every year or maybe more often than that, but that's probably it. And so we had an array formula in the spreadsheet, which was, we have a function built in out of this database we had of dividends, and we had an array function that pulled in far too many of them, like 20 rows of future dividends, when in reality you probably only got three or four. But the problem with array formulas is you can't have them kind of extend indefinitely. So you have to make it too long and then refer to too big an array.
Chris Rae (00:42:45):
And what happens when you trade an index is all of the dividends turn into the appropriate index proportion of that dividend. So if Apple is 10% of your index, then your index dividend is Apple dividend times 10%, and then all of the other stocks at 10%. Well, there's a lot of dividends in that list. And so if you do, say for example, a 20 row array formula, you may only get a couple of weeks of dividends on the thing you were pricing that's five years out.
Rob Collie (00:43:13):
Okay, yeah.
Chris Rae (00:43:14):
And then your sales person might trade that thing based on that price, which was surprisingly competitive. And then once you've traded it, you might realize, "Wow, we sold this awful cheap." But then some people might start hunting around as to why we sold it off cheap. And then they might turn up at my desk and say, "I'd like to talk to you about this array formula that we just lost $200,000 from." A sorry, a sad afternoon, because it was pretty rapidly obvious... We're basically typing an index saying hit refresh dividends, you see it fill the whole thing and you're like... Oddly enough, thank God I'd written at the top of the spreadsheet, "This is not for pricing indexes." And so it wasn't my fault.
Chris Rae (00:43:59):
And honestly, one of the things I wanted to do in Excel was to have this concept of a structure inside a cell. So what I would really like to have is have cell one be the dividend array. And then I can say, "Equals R XLL DLL wrapper function [this cell]." Which is in fact like a whole structured array inside of that. And inside that cell I'd have our array formula return to all the dividends, but you never have this problem of having to extend arrays. And it's a constant problem you get in Excel with all sorts of stuff. It's just when you have pieces of data like length and, it's just a shit show. I mean, I really like Excel, I've worked in Excel, but it's derived from a product that was made in the '70s and it doesn't work well in determinate length of data.
Thomas LaRock (00:44:41):
So did you ever just consider to use the correct tool for what you were trying to get done?
Chris Rae (00:44:46):
What was the correct tool for what we were trying to do?
Thomas LaRock (00:44:49):
Something that would work with arrays. I don't know, Python.
Chris Rae (00:44:52):
Well, but these are guys who came out of university with MBAs and they're going to be derivative traders, they don't give a flying fuck about arraying.
Rob Collie (00:44:58):
That's fine. That was one of those Cockney rhymes, right? That wasn't actually the F word, it was meant to rhyme with buck, like pass the buck.
Chris Rae (00:45:04):
It's from fuckwit and then bit is the word, so they don't care a bit, is what I'm saying, yeah. So everyone says this in the UK, it will be fine on the BBC, I think. I mean Tom, the truth is, these people are not interested in learning a programming language. Excel, has this glory of kind of casual obscenity to it that it looks like anyone can use it. Everyone can get to grips within 10 seconds with what Excel basically does, and you can get someone going, and then as things get more and more complicated, you get to a point that man, you really should have written this in something else. But you started off in Excel, because it's so easy to start off in Excel. And so it's just so easy to say, "I'm going to do one of these and one of these and I'm going to have those together. Now I've got a derivative product."
Chris Rae (00:45:45):
And there was always a pressure in the bank, because we have lots of these kinds of errors. Not only things that we've done wrong in spreadsheets, but also just we didn't lock the spreadsheets down enough so people would just change one formula in a whole segment, but it turns out all the other ones were the same. And we would constantly have whole arrays of data where one of the formulas was different because some of the thought that was going to change them all. And we actually wrote a bunch of tools to check... You highlight an array and it's like, "Tell me what I've screwed up in this array."
Chris Rae (00:46:10):
And so everyone wanted to use Excel, and so they did use Excel. And then the truth is that we ended up, you can price things pretty quickly because people are like, "Oh, this thing you sold us last week..." Which is a thing we had a whole risk management system for.And this other thing, we wanted to get a rough idea of, what if we combine those two things, what would that cost? And so you obviously do that in spreadsheet, it's the right place to do it.
Chris Rae (00:46:28):
But then they say, "Oh, actually we might trade that." And then at that point we tried to never actually risk manage our spreadsheets. So when you'd sold a product, and somebody has to find out every day how much of IMB stock do you buy or sell in order to fulfill this derivative in two years, that would all happen in this backend system. But there were a number of cases where people had done things in Excel that weren't... They'd used add-ins for getting data from somewhere that nobody had written into this backend system yet. And so we ended up having some things that got risk managed off Excel, and I hope nobody from UBS is going to come and have me assassinated now.
Chris Rae (00:47:04):
But we also had some things that got risk managed of Mathematica. So we would take Excel models and turn them into Mathematica, which is kind of a bit more of that, like what I was talking about, that kind of structured thing, you're not going to fall off the end of an array. And one of the other guys on our team was building quite a lot models in Mathematica for things that couldn't quite be built into the risk management thing. I mean, you're right, that that is a very chunky way of doing these kinds of things, but I do think it's kind of the right way. And I wish there was a product that was a bit like Excel but a bit more well suited to this kind of thing, I think.
Rob Collie (00:47:32):
Excel is working on becoming that product, as you're aware.
Chris Rae (00:47:35):
They're trying, it's just, as we all know there's a lot of history there, and you've developed this new feature and it turns out it doesn't work in Excel for macro language. People always used to, when I was going around customers, people were always worried about when we were going to get rid of VBA, even then it was 10 years old, and I was 20 years old. And it was never a good programming language for anything, it was just a thing that got kind of shoehorned into office before our time. And I always said to people, "You're right, and we would love to get rid of VBA, But what you need to look at is Excel for macro language." And so we've taken out the UI to create Excel for macro language, we did that ages ago. But you could still run Excel for macros in Excel when I left in 2014 or something like that. And I said, "If you're worried about VBA being got rid of, you just keep an eye on Excel for macro language, because when that goes, you've got another 20 years."
Rob Collie (00:48:21):
I don't see VBA ever going anywhere. Let's circle back to Tom's point for a moment. Tom, you know the answer to this, right? By the time you get into something like array formulas, you have reached a point where there is a far more elegant tool for that part of it. Array formulas are, I think the single most difficult and abstract thing in Excel.
Chris Rae (00:48:43):
And useful to be honest, but yes.
Rob Collie (00:48:45):
Super, super useful. The array formula crowd really, really, really needs to meet DAX's X functions, because, oh my God are those great.
Chris Rae (00:48:54):
Not that you're biased at all.
Rob Collie (00:48:55):
Well, I'm only biased of having used them both.
Chris Rae (00:48:58):
No, I thought you've worked on them.
Rob Collie (00:49:00):
No, I didn't have anything to do with the DAX language. I wish that I could say that I did, but I didn't. And honestly, even the X functions in DAX, those trace their lineage to the X functions or the similar iterator functions that were already in MDX that I never was able to learn. So the vast majority of array formula problems are just thousands of times more elegant, higher performance, everything if you implement them in X functions, there's almost like an entire business model of going and helping the array formula crowd at investment banks adopt the DAX X functions.
Chris Rae (00:49:33):
The DAX functions, you have to run them on PivotTable or structured data of some sort, right?
Rob Collie (00:49:37):
They run across tables of inputs. What really matters is the inputs, the flavor of output can be in a cube formula, for instance. If you wanted to tie it back into a regular Excel model, the cube formula can be the way to get them back into the grid on a cell by cell basis.
Chris Rae (00:49:53):
Can I put like a bunch of numbers in column A and then in column B use a DAX function to do something with them? Because I don't think I can.
Rob Collie (00:50:00):
No, you really can't. There's a refresh problem there. You need to be refreshing the data model from that range, and then it would work, right? The biggest problem is that is not integrated with the calc chain, the Excel calc chain and the DAX calc chain don't listen to each other for notifications.
Chris Rae (00:50:18):
I see, I see. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:50:19):
That would be amazing if we ever got to that point, but a lot of these things could be done potentially end to end in the Power BI environment without ever having to run into... But now you're running into the same sort of thing, which is, "I've got to leave Excel." And there was a reason why I was in Excel in the first place. And we're talking about in some ways, not the last mile, but a critical sub component of a model, it's not the whole thing. The net benefits of using Excel for these problems, including array formulas and all of their gotchas and complexity, and also, frankly, inscrutability, you really can't watch an array formula evaluate.
Chris Rae (00:50:53):
That's true. I wished they'd done some more tools. I mean, I wrote tools at UBS to try and help people with some of this. Like, why is my spreadsheet going slow was a good one, and that kind of stuff,
Rob Collie (00:51:01):
Because you used array formulas, is the answer.
Chris Rae (00:51:03):
Well, yeah. And there's a bunch of ways that array formulas work that really are horribly ineffective, just because you need to keep things working from versions ages ago. All of us who've worked on this, there would be a new glorious fast way of doing this, but unfortunately it's going to break these spreadsheets that somebody saved from 15 years ago that are business critical and they're going to have to patch as soon as we sent it out, et cetera.
Chris Rae (00:51:24):
One of the reasons that people are all using Excel for this is not only because of Excel itself, but because everything has an add-in for Excel, like you've always got external data coming from somewhere and everyone makes an add-in for Excel. You get your FX rates from an add-in that the company matrix sell. You get your Reuters data. You get data from other indexes. Because each stock exchange will often have its own data retrieval system to get stock prices, and so you would need all of those plugins. And somebody needs to make those in whatever system you're doing your pricing in, and that, really the only thing that they all make for is Excel.
Rob Collie (00:51:57):
Chris, do you still have friends working in that environment, people that you know? Are you getting any signals? I imagine that there are now Python libraries and our libraries for integration with these same sorts of services. In the same way that Excel became a center of gravity for add-on writing, are your friends seeing R and Python and things like that kind of leaking in around the edges? I mean, Mathematica, if you were using Mathematica back then...
Chris Rae (00:52:21):
So the truth is that I don't talk to anyone about that kind of stuff, but my friends were slightly in an odd situation because we were the quant department rather than the trading department, so they were all kind of programmy type people anyway. So they were all doing what you think would be a good idea, but it's the traders that are tougher. And I bet you there's a whole new generation of people going into derivatives training that actually can write programming languages, at least enough to get their work done, much more than... This was 20 years ago when I started doing this, but I think you'd be surprised as to how much of it still happens in Excel.
Chris Rae (00:52:49):
Because often you'll be like, "Oh, okay. I got something vaguely working." You're a trader, you've got something vaguely working but you have to send it to the sales guy. You can't send the sales guy your GitHub. He needs to just be able to double click on it in his email and see a number and then change this other number and see what that number does. There's a lot of reasons that this still happens. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:10):
So I just want to take a moment here and marvel at the contrast in something in particular. So again, we're coming back to this topic, did not enjoy Math 101.
Chris Rae (00:53:19):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:53:19):
That was Chris Rae's experience, did not enjoy math 101, okay. And yet, just for replay of bits and pieces of this conversation so far, Objective-C, you seem to have some opinions about that language. VBA, you had some opinions about that language as well. This idea of storing an array, an entire array in a cell and passing that around as like a first-class object, these are very technical opinions.
Chris Rae (00:53:47):
No, these all have more to do with the English degree that I got than they do with math.
Rob Collie (00:53:50):
Well, explain.
Chris Rae (00:53:51):
What's an array and a sale got to do with mathematics?
Rob Collie (00:53:54):
Okay, but what does it have to do with English? I mean, so here's the thing-
Thomas LaRock (00:53:57):
It might have words in it.
Rob Collie (00:53:59):
You would agree that the default belief, the preponderance of belief in the world is that these things have a lot more to do with math than they do with English?
Chris Rae (00:54:10):
Right. And I think, in my experience, I would say it's true that to be a computer programmer's computer programmer, like the guy who writes algorithms for stuff... I've got this friend who used to work for Pixar rendering stuff, and now he works for Google Maps on routing stuff. These are programmer's programmers who are inventing algorithms and things, and doing things with matrixes and log space. Those guys will benefit from having both sort of skills in mathematics, but also the kind of brain that is good at mathematics.
Chris Rae (00:54:37):
But I think these days, and really consistently all the way through, there's lots and lots of room for programmers who are not quite as sort of methodical and mathy focused as those people. I mean, you need those people to create the algorithm. I mean, we all know these days programming is mostly about finding things that other people have done and sticking them together. And frankly, by the time you are writing a sort of algorithm, you've screwed something up because you shouldn't be making anything where you have to do that. I think there's lots of different types of computer programs. And I mean, I've basically been a computer programmer for 25 years, but I've just not been that mathy type of computer programmer. And most computer programmers are not really, you're making databases and sticking things together and writing PHP and other non-glamorous languages. I know you want this to be true, Rob, but I just don't-
Rob Collie (00:55:24):
I don't, quite the opposite. But by playing devil's advocate, I think we tease it out more, right? It's like, there is a myth, and it's a very, very, very durable myth. And I think it traces back to high school and it traces back to university, as you would say, not to the real world, but it traces back to school. When I would stick my head into the computer lab in high school, the faces I would see sitting in there were largely the same faces that I saw in the physics class or in the calculus class. I didn't see the people who were in the humanities class in there, but then the real world happens and it's different.
Chris Rae (00:56:03):
Well sort of. Although I think it's also time. I mean, I think what computer programming meant twenty years ago is not the same as what it means now. I feel like the people who were writing computer programs, say 40 years ago, were optimizing memory users, they were minimizing the number of clock cycles they we're using for a particular algorithm. They were messing around with these real kind of low level type things. And computer programmers now, they tend to be much more people who know about the business that they're actually trying to work in and are just trying to use the computer to get something done for their business, because computing has got so much easier. The base level that you get when you start programming computers, it's just so much harder.
Chris Rae (00:56:39):
When you and I started programming computers, the base level you got was assembler and you were writing things that were compiled into assembler. Now the base level you get is libraries for recognizing glyphs on your camera screen. And that's the case of like import this, take a picture of your glyph, and now you've done that. I mean, I don't have any idea how that works, but people are just sticking things together more. And that's great because now this means that everybody can more and more use computers for their kind of stuff. But I do think that skill set is a bit different as well as the kind of perception of what was needed.
Rob Collie (00:57:05):
Yeah, I completely agree, and that's been a theme on this show that you've listened to every episode of.
Chris Rae (00:57:09):
Yeah, yeah, episode eight was really good.
Rob Collie (00:57:12):
That was a real zinger. So this notion of a hybrid person who knows the business but also has the technical skill to execute, is the most valuable thing going. That's the present, that's the future, that's kind of everything.
Chris Rae (00:57:23):
And it's great because it means that people who are subject matter experts will do computer stuff. I'm fed of people in Silicon Valley revolutionizing some industry they've never heard of just because they can make a website and there's other people who can't. I mean, you don't know anything about that, and now you've decided you're going to revolutionize it. I mean, it's complicated. And you see all these startups who start with, "Oh, we're going to take out the middleman and blah-di-blah." And then it turns out, oh yeah, that actually was more complicated than you thought it was and there was a reason that middleman existed, and then you go bankrupt, but by that point you've sold your company to some other company. But then hopefully we get to the point that subject matter experts are going to revolutionize their industry by using computers.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:54):
These types of functional analysts have existed forever, somebody who can do tech and somebody that can know the business, look at the character in Office Space, he has people skills. I mean, they've always been around. But here's the best example I have for what you just said about Silicon Valley. It was a couple of years ago, it was a ride sharing. And the person, this executive, I think, they were dreaming of the perfect ride sharing journey where one person would get on and then in the middle of that journey, they would stop and pick up another person, and then the first person might get off. And so this journey of never ending, this ride share journey of people getting on and off, and somebody just goes, "That's a bus." You've just invented the bus, and you think it's revolutionary.
Chris Rae (00:58:43):
But they've got an app. They've got an app. [crosstalk 00:58:47].
Thomas LaRock (00:58:44):
They've got an app.
Chris Rae (00:58:48):
They've got $6 million in venture capital funding. They've got these amazing tables that go up and down.
Rob Collie (00:58:55):
They've never seen a bus.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:56):
And they're panting for the likes, I need four stars.
Chris Rae (00:59:00):
I mean, and also, we're all computer people, and we've all sat in bars with people who are trying to find an industry to revolutionize, busting off app ideas about things you don't know anything about. That's not how this is supposed to work. I'm not supposed to say I've bought a taxi, what could I do with it? You're supposed to have decided what you're going to do before you go off.
Rob Collie (00:59:24):
Plus the dirty reality is that even if you have a really good idea, a really good idea is worth next to nothing, it's just so worthless.
Chris Rae (00:59:34):
We've all had those.
Rob Collie (00:59:35):
How do you get from that idea to a reality that the market accepts it? And even if ultimately there is a real product in this space, how do you make sure, or service, how do you make sure that it's you and not some second mover that out executes you? You mentioned that you were potentially the first website in that burgeoning industry of English to English translation, and now you've been out hustled, out competed by the new breed-
Chris Rae (00:59:58):
But I'm still going. I get hundreds of hits.
Rob Collie (01:00:01):
Well, yeah hundreds. But they didn't go brick and mortar like you, you went into physical goods with the book.
Chris Rae (01:00:06):
Yeah, I was going to revolutionize that web industry.
Rob Collie (01:00:09):
Yeah. I mean, you had a really good idea, and you even pursued it and reduced it to practice and still got left behind. It takes more than that.
Chris Rae (01:00:20):
Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think there's still an awful lot of just startup nonsense, but you do see more startups that are being made by people who are addressing an actual need that they knew about. They bought this thing on the internet and then decided to revolutionize the industry that that thing was in, because something about their buying experience was unsatisfactory or something.
Rob Collie (01:00:37):
Our company essentially comes from that. I had been on all three sides of the business intelligence triangle. I had been building the software. I had, believe it or not, also hired a consulting firm to execute on that platform for us, that's something I got to do when I worked briefly for that five minutes I was over on MSN. And then now the third side is, running a consulting company, right?
Rob Collie (01:01:02):
And so very much filling that practical need as a subject matter expert, like seeing how the industry needed to change and all of that. But still the startup crowd, when we start talking, if I talked to Silicon Valley types, right? So often without even realizing it, they'll just make some comment, "We'd never go into any sort of labor intensive, people intensive business. We don't want that, that's a terrible business." Without realizing that they're talking about me. There's something really satisfying about running a business like this and starting a business like this, so many people, including the people who work for us, lives are so greatly improved and we get to make a living at the same time, it's awesome.
Chris Rae (01:01:47):
It's nice making stuff that people use, this is why you and I were working at Microsoft too.
Rob Collie (01:01:50):
No one's ever going to be a billionaire in this business.
Chris Rae (01:01:53):
That's just such a weird ephemeral moment in this kind of whole industry, where people are being made billionaires for things that were [inaudible 01:02:01] ideas, that they had an exit strategy for and that kind of stuff. 50 years from now, that's not going to be happening, it's going to be some other thing that's going nuts. It was oil a hundred years ago. We all happen to work in this field, but it's turned out to be the thing where people could make lots of money, and it was just super lucky, but you don't have to do the whole Silicon Valley nonsense.
Chris Rae (01:02:18):
I was asked by my wife's boss's boss, actually at some social event... My wife is now working at Microsoft, I think might get her on here at some point, because she actually does do data things. And her bosses both asked me what the exit strategy for my company was, and I mean, this is a two person business where you take pictures of logs and report them to the local environment agency, we're not about to be bought by Oracle. And I don't have an exit strategy. To me, if I had an exit strategy that would mean this business wasn't doing very well. Who on earth rates the success of what you're doing by how quickly you're going to sell it to someone else and run away?
Rob Collie (01:02:49):
It's echoes of the financial crisis, right? The late 2000s financial crisis. It's like, we will initiate these financial deals, but immediately sell them off as security so that someone else is holding the risk, right?
Chris Rae (01:03:04):
Yeah, right, right.
Rob Collie (01:03:05):
And, it's like, "Oh God, no, we would never hold these things for more than a millisecond."
Chris Rae (01:03:09):
Yeah, well I suppose I was involved in that industry a bit.
Rob Collie (01:03:14):
Maybe, maybe. Well, you voted with your feet, I'm sure it was an ethical and moral decision to leave that all behind. And fundamentally, the vast majority of those business models are like, "How do we get the people out of the equation?"
Chris Rae (01:03:26):
Right. But people are really how you made the money. I mean, there's a very short period where you can make money by churning through compute time. Soon everyone's going to do that and that's not going to make money anymore. It's people that make you money.
Rob Collie (01:03:37):
I guess the goal is trying to become the new infrastructure, in the same way that like the power companies and utilities and all of that, the software world offers the opportunity to be a private infrastructure that is essentially of public need, right?
Chris Rae (01:03:56):
And it's true. And actually, honestly my current business is sort of that. I mean, we sell it to states on an annual subscription basis, and so the goal with this is, you do a bunch of work up front and then in year 10, you will hopefully be doing not as much work, but still making the same money. I did think that about year three, but now I'm in year eight and I'm thinking it about year 20.
Rob Collie (01:04:15):
Okay, I'm sure you remember the podcast we did with John Hancock?
Chris Rae (01:04:19):
Oh, that was a good one, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:04:20):
He founded a SaaS company that sells to government agencies, and he's based in your neck of the woods. They're software, first and foremost, they have a freemium model where they give away a version of their product, but the freemium version of their product catches child predators.
Chris Rae (01:04:38):
Whoa, that's a bit of a dark free version.
Rob Collie (01:04:40):
Right, it's not the typical loss leader. But again, I'm just recapping the show that you listened to, so you know all of this.
Chris Rae (01:04:46):
Yeah, I actually made notes, I've got them somewhere.
Thomas LaRock (01:04:48):
Somewhere.
Rob Collie (01:04:49):
But yeah, so honestly, I think you're the third person we've had on the show who's built a SaaS product that is sold to government agencies. Derek Ricard also, emergency reporting is targeted at emergency service departments, like ambulance, paramedic, all that, all over the world.
Chris Rae (01:05:07):
Are these people all similarly old? Because I do think there's an age element to this. And I think younger programming people are going for more glamorous, exciting things that might make lots of money. And older people, I'm mid-40s, I'm not that old, but I'm old for a computer programmer. And the older people they're looking for just steady, easy-going, it brings in money every month. And conversely, a thing that our customers value a lot is that we've been doing this for eight years and we're going to keep doing it. You see this all the time that everyone wants an app for stuff. People will hire a consultant, they'll make an app, the consultant will go away because the apps finished. And then six months later there's an IRS update where the app doesn't work anymore, and they can't hire the consultant because the consultant's disappeared or isn't interested in doing it or et cetera, and then your stuff kind of falls apart.
Rob Collie (01:05:48):
Well, no, they executed their exit strategy.
Chris Rae (01:05:50):
Right. But I think it takes a while to build up relationships in government like this. And actually my business partner has worked in this field for 20 years now, so he knew these people well before I did. And we don't make anything super exciting, but we make something predictable and we're find-able on the phone and we'll support things after we've finished it, and the government customers like that stuff. One of the things with government customers is that they often can't find funding very easily. They'll fund something via some grant that they got from some agency or some other part of their own company or something, but then once that's done, you can't just pull money out of the kitty to do some more work on it. You need to go and apply for another grant, and that's not going to be for 500 bucks. So they slow machinations of government mean that they do want people who are going to kind of stick with them in the longer term, and accept that, yeah, I'm not technically being paid for this, but they're going to subscribe next year.
Rob Collie (01:06:39):
Integrity and commitment, again, that's not where you get the most multiple on your exit strategy.
Chris Rae (01:06:43):
No, but it's a job.
Rob Collie (01:06:45):
It's a job and it feels good. It scratches a lot of other itches that I think are just as important, more important. It turns out not everyone can be billionaires, there's not enough room for that.
Chris Rae (01:06:54):
Yeah, that's true. I mean, I have got two boats, as I mentioned.
Rob Collie (01:06:55):
So we can't let this recording end. I know that you're a busy man and you've got wall to wall meetings stacked up behind this, but there are a couple of things we absolutely have to talk about, otherwise I will feel like we've really failed. So first of all, I'm glad that we were able to have this friendly conversation because it's one of the last times that we will ever be friendly with one another, given that we're about to enter into competition in the hotly contested startup market of what you call Breadpacitor, but what we know to be Doughpacitor on our side. Can you tell the story of how you came around to this first mover, but going to ultimately fail to succeed in the face of competition, this Breadpacitor?
Chris Rae (01:07:42):
Did you sign the NDA, I did send it through.
Rob Collie (01:07:45):
I don't remember seeing that.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:46):
I don't sign NDAs, sorry.
Rob Collie (01:07:48):
But he knows that, he's listened to all of our podcasts, he's heard us talk about how we don't sign NDAs.
Chris Rae (01:07:53):
Yeah, well I'm going to assume you use some discretion here, but just between-
Rob Collie (01:07:57):
FriendDA. No, we won't tell anyone.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:58):
A friendDA, I love that.
Rob Collie (01:08:03):
I didn't make that up. I heard it recently, and I'm like, "I'm using that from now on."
Chris Rae (01:08:06):
I don't have an electronics background, but I do have a radio-controlled submarine, a little one. It was on Kickstarter, it's this company called Chasing that make submarines. You know DJI, the drone company? They make some really fancy ones that you can use for actually making films, but they also make ones you can afford to use in your backyard. And so this Chasing company is a bit like that, but for submarines. So they make ones that you can use to inspect an oil rig, but they also make a couple of cheaper ones, it's one that's only cheap if you're actually a person who owns a yacht. But then there was one that they put on Kickstarter, it was like 300 and something bucks, and I backed it on Kickstarter. And the way it works is you've got the actual submarine device, there's a cable that goes to this floating buoy, I call it buoy, I think you'd call it buoy, and that's not in my books. It's this cable that goes to this buoy on the surface, because you can't transmit radio waves through water, so-
Rob Collie (01:08:54):
Just stop, we should make very clear for our American listeners, there is not a male human child swimming around on the surface-
Chris Rae (01:08:59):
Oh no, it's a male human child, actually. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:09:04):
... with a cable.
Chris Rae (01:09:05):
There's a cable that sticks into the male human child. You can put Water Wings on them.
Rob Collie (01:09:08):
How much do you get on a charge of the buoy?
Chris Rae (01:09:11):
It's two bowls of cereal and you're pretty much good for an hour to two with the submarine. Yeah, so that bit floats on the surface and then you connect to that on your phone via Wi-Fi and you get live video from the submarine, it records onto an SD card, or onto something that's in the submarine, and you drive around the place. And so I've been messing around with this here in Seattle, and I have kids, because you don't want to be an adult is going around and playing with a toy submarine on a crowded beach, it makes you look like some sort of dweeb. And so I was hoping that I'd be able to take the kids and then it would look like the kids were playing with it, but my kids actually, it turns out, are not interested in any of the things that I'm interested in and don't want to play with this remote control submarine. And Seattle, there's not that many exciting things you can go and look at under the water, so I kind of did my fill of things around here.
Chris Rae (01:09:55):
We had this lucky trip in the middle of the pandemic where we went to Europe, obviously I'm Scottish, and I mentioned that my wife's Greek, so we were going to Scotland and Greece. And of course I was going to take this submarine to Greece because her parents live kind of near the sea and you can kind of mosey down to the ocean, also them being Greek they kind of spend a lot of the evenings arguing with each other, and so I could sneak off with my submarine. The first night I sneaked off with my submarine down to the sea and it died.
Rob Collie (01:10:22):
You flew internationally with a buoy in your luggage?
Chris Rae (01:10:26):
Yeah, with a buoy in my luggage, I risked a lot. And this is actually a little bit complicated, because my wife decided that this was a trip we were going to pack lighter on, and caught me packing this submarine. So I used up some birdie points to get the submarine to Greece, certainly, but then it died. And so I thought, "Well, I can't get any spare parts, it's not a big company. So I'm not going to get any spare parts in Greece, and so it might just try and fix it." And I was pretty sure that the part that died was the buoy part because the connector was wiggly, I thought maybe water had got into it. And it's not openable, it's been glued together. I hacked it open with a saw, and I thought, you could still use the submarine if you don't put the buoy in the water, you've just got the length of the cable.
Chris Rae (01:11:03):
I hacked the top off it, and I realized it had corrosion on the motherboard. And so I did a bit of looking on the internet and they said, "Oh, you can just use distilled water and a toothbrush." So I bought some distilled water, and I stole my sister-in-law's toothbrushes. I said, "Have you got a toothbrush I could use to clean this thing?" She's like, "Oh yeah, sure." So I started cleaning this thing only to discover that this toothbrush was covered in toothpaste. If that had been my family, they'd have assumed that, "Oh yeah, you need a toothbrush to clean some mechanical thing." First of all, I covered the motherboard in toothpaste and then worked out how I was going to get rid of that.
Chris Rae (01:11:35):
And then I cleaned all the corrosion off and I plugged it in and it still wasn't working, but it was not working in a kind of different way. And because I had taken the top of this buoy thing off, I was messing around with it, and I had discovered that there was a capacitor in there... When you plugged it in, there was obviously a power light on this PCB and it would flicker. And I thought, I bet that's not supposed to flicker. And there was a capacitor, it was the only component on there apart from chips, it was this capacitor. And I was messing around, I thought it must be a power regulator or something. So I was trying to wiggle it, see if it was not connected properly or something. And as I was touching it, the light was going on more solidly on the board.
Rob Collie (01:12:08):
Just when you grabbed the capacitor?
Chris Rae (01:12:10):
When I was wiggling the capacitor in my fingers, and I thought, "Well, it must be a loose connection or something like that." Well I got to the point where I could lift it up on this capacitor, so it [inaudible 01:12:18] loose connection, it was kind of flickering less. So I thought, I wonder if it works. So I kind of cranked the thing up, starting my phone, held onto this capacitor, if you hold onto it quite tight, the light would actually go pretty solid and you'd get a green light on the submarine, which meant it was ready to go. And sure enough, I connect to Wi-Fi, sat in the room we were sitting in with it running for half an hour taking video just in the room, but with me holding this capacitor.
Chris Rae (01:12:39):
And I thought, well, I've got a proof of concept now for her to fix this thing, whatever on earth is wrong with it. And I just need to work out... Because you need two hands to control the thing, and the children are even less interested in just sitting, holding a capacitor. And the wife, I did actually ask the wife, but she said some words that I'm not going to use on your broadcast. And so I thought, "Well, I need something that's going to replace my finger and it's better." And I thought the things that I might be doing are, I know that I'm not fixing this loose connection, but I'm wondering if I'm earthing it or something like that. So I got a spoon out of my mother-in-law's kitchen, and I put that on it, it didn't seem to make any difference, it was as if I was doing nothing. And I thought, "Well, it's something to do... Maybe it's the heat." Right? So I kind of left it in the sun for a bit, and then that didn't help.
Chris Rae (01:13:22):
And I actually put it on Facebook, you probably saw this Facebook thread. I put it on Facebook saying, "I've recently ended what I can do with this buoy, does anyone have any ideas about how I should really fixed it?" And I was like, "If I hold it up to my hand, it works and if I tried all these other things, it doesn't work." So I thought, "I've got some smart friends." So it turns out they were all completely useless. They're like, "Ah, capacitors are complicated things." And nobody really gave me any advice at all.
Chris Rae (01:13:42):
So I closed Facebook, and I just went looking for other things that might be like my hand. So I actually got a piece of raw chicken out of the fridge, but I realized it's quite wet, raw chicken, right? And so I was going to flop this onto this motherboard and I think it would cause other things. So I just put it in a plastic bag and I put it on the motherboard over this capacitor., It didn't do anything at all, so it really had to touch it. So the raw chicken was out, and I got a banana and I tried sort of squishing the banana onto the capacitor, well that didn't do anything. And then I got a piece of bread, there's loads of bread in Greece. So I go a bit of bread, just a chunk of a loaf of bread, I got a picture of it somewhere. Well, actually I made a video of this whole saga that I posted on some ask electronics thing on Reddit. And then I get the adoration of my kids, because I might get another 10 views. So it's over a hundred views now.
Chris Rae (01:14:27):
Yeah, so I've got this piece of bread, stuck it on it and it actually worked for a while. 10 minutes I managed to run it again in the bedroom, took video, but then it stopped and I couldn't get that piece of bread to work anymore with it. And I noticed it was a bit warm and I thought, "Okay, well I've got the solution here, so I just need to productionalize it." And so I got a bottle cap and I stuffed a whole bunch of bread in that. And then I wrapped it kind of with tape such that there was still a hole for the capacitor. I found if the bread was wet it made a big difference.
Chris Rae (01:14:51):
So I think that was why the piece of bread didn't work. So I drink some water, distilled water because I'm a professional here, I put some distilled water into the bottle cap thing and then I plop the bottle cap upside down on top of this capacitor and the submariner worked for like half an hour. And so I could actually go out and take little videos and things, and then it would die again and I'd have to take the bread capacitor off and put a little bit more water in it and then I'd plop it on again and I'd get another hour out of it.
Chris Rae (01:15:15):
And so this all works pretty good. I mean, it was a bit of a hassle because sometimes you have to put more water in the bread and sometimes it'd be a bit windy and it would knock over the buoy and the bread would fall off and I'd have to go and find it again and put it on. But it worked pretty well until actually the last day I was in Greece when it died completely, and there was quite a lot of burn marks on the bread. And there were also some marks on the PCB that I think were from bits of wet bread that had fallen out of the bread capacitor and maybe damaged the PCB, so it's probably not returnable at this point.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:45):
You invented toast.
Chris Rae (01:15:47):
It's a not effective way of making toast, I got to say.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:51):
It's not efficient.
Chris Rae (01:15:51):
No, it's like Timbits toast kind of thing, I could do.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:56):
I'm just thinking that there might be a way for us to take this and get some VC money.
Chris Rae (01:16:01):
No you're right. And I mean, as they say in start-up land, pivot. So I could pivot onto toast.
Rob Collie (01:16:08):
Just a chunk of bread fixes your remote control submarine?
Chris Rae (01:16:13):
I think with this particular project, that strategy is definitely to exit.
Rob Collie (01:16:19):
The exit strategy here is just to exit. It's...
Chris Rae (01:16:23):
Man, yeah, but I've already done this video.
Rob Collie (01:16:25):
Now that you have shared all of this, and a copycat startup with a much more compelling name.
Chris Rae (01:16:31):
What's your story in this game? Are you also involved in submarine repair with bread?
Rob Collie (01:16:36):
Doughpacitor is already a thing, I incorporated Doughpacitor last month.
Chris Rae (01:16:40):
So you didn't come up with any idea at all, you're just stealing mine and using a different-
Rob Collie (01:16:43):
Oh yeah, I'm just going to out-compete you because I have a better name.
Chris Rae (01:16:46):
No, I appreciate you're candor.
Rob Collie (01:16:48):
Totally just stealing your public domain Facebook idea, I'm funded by Zuckerberg.
Chris Rae (01:16:52):
Yeah, no, I'm sure you are. Yeah, yeah. Have you got nice tables that go up and down?
Thomas LaRock (01:16:57):
See, it'd be better if he said you were funded by Wonder Bread.
Chris Rae (01:17:00):
Oh yeah, you can revolutionize their whole industry.
Rob Collie (01:17:02):
The whole gluten-free movement is really threatening the Wonder Bread company, they need to pivot, they need to pivot into submarine repair, yeah
Chris Rae (01:17:10):
This might work with gluten-free.
Rob Collie (01:17:12):
All right, so here's my other question for you, in the last 10 years, what's your turnover rate on automobile?
Chris Rae (01:17:17):
I see where you're heading with this, and I have actually not owned that many cars. How many cars have you owned in your life?
Rob Collie (01:17:24):
I don't know, it's probably around the order of six.
Chris Rae (01:17:27):
Okay, well, it's more than that. Yeah. Maybe I've been hanging around with too many car racing people.
Rob Collie (01:17:31):
The thing that always blows me away is that when you're acquiring a car or thinking about acquiring a car, it's always at a price point that I didn't even know you could get a car.
Chris Rae (01:17:42):
Yeah, I've been into cars for a long time. My mate Jan was into cars and built... My dad's just actually recently built a car from scratch, that you can buy plans and you will go off and build this car. It was actually just after he retired, and I think my mother agreed to this concept because she thought my dad was going to get these plans, he was going to work on this in the garage until he died. And it was going to be a reasonably good investment, and she would not have to put up with him fumbling around the house getting under her feet. But my dad being somewhat good at this kind of thing and being retired, knocked out this car in six months. My mother thought it was the biggest waste of money ever. But actually it turns out that he finishes it, he did a really good job of it actually.
Chris Rae (01:18:17):
And then he of course got on the internet, there's forums for these build your own car things, and most of them are being built by people like us who are middle-aged with jobs and kids and things. And they've got halfway through this project and stalled, they got stuck on something. And so my dad ended up being one of those guys on the forums who's just like, "Oh, I could just come and help you with that for a week." And so I can send you a picture of these too, but these are three wheeled cars, so they're a bit odd. It's like a motorcycle engine in the front, no roof, that kind of thing. They look a bit like an old Morgan, if you know what that looks like. And the people who make these are usually a little bit eccentric, and so he's been going around Europe, staying in castles and fancy chalets, [inaudible 01:18:54] eccentric old men who are building these cars that have got stuck on it.
Chris Rae (01:18:57):
So he's off doing that kind of thing all the time. Most of my family have had this long interest in cars, and I've been racing cars for, well, 10 years since we came here, and other kinds of racing in the UK. And I've also been buying weird cars. I have of course a 911, which I bought when it was eight years old, eight years ago. And I paid $39,000, so that car was twice as much money as I'd ever spent on any other car at all. And all of our friends now, they're like, "Oh well, you've got that fancy Porsche." And I'm like. "That SUV you're driving around in was like $48,000. You don't even know what color it is." So I just have not spent large amounts of money of cars, but have gone through some kind of weirdish ones.
Rob Collie (01:19:34):
You're a very entertaining Facebook read. It doesn't matter what you're up to, I don't have to be into it to appreciate the eccentricity of it, right? I'm like, "Oh, I can relate to that. That I can relate to."
Chris Rae (01:19:48):
10 years ago, Facebook was all... You go onto Facebook to see what people are doing. Like, they went camping with their kids or they've done something at work or something like that. And now Facebook's all just, here's something you want to read for your betterment. And, here's an argument I'm going to start with people. And also the things people talk about themselves on Facebook are always unambiguously positive things. It's like, "Oh, I'm so honored to have taken part in this thing, and years of hard work." But I'm not sure that people posted, "I actually fell down a flight of stairs this morning while trying to put a sticking plaster on my knee." That's much more interesting, that makes me feel better reading [inaudible 01:20:23]. So I feel like you should just put on things that you're doing, whether they went well or badly, and don't put on things that you think other people want to read. If I was in charge of Facebook I would change it so you cannot post links on it anymore. Why is that particularly good?
Rob Collie (01:20:36):
I think I share that belief. I try... First of all, if I don't post very much on Facebook anymore.
Chris Rae (01:20:41):
I like your output too. I mean, I'll do some fluffing here.
Rob Collie (01:20:43):
I appreciate that. I mean, it's like, if I'm not contributing-
Chris Rae (01:20:46):
Especially your [inaudible 01:20:48].
Rob Collie (01:20:48):
... if I'm not contributing to the mirth level of the greater picture when I'm posting on there, that I don't really want to be on there.
Chris Rae (01:20:57):
Yeah, then it's not something people are going to want to read.
Rob Collie (01:21:03):
The pictures of my ridiculous looking helmet that I got to ride our scooters, the before and after. Like, "This is the helmet before the 30 minute first ride on the scooter, and this is me in the hospital after the 30 minute first ride."
Chris Rae (01:21:15):
Yeah, that's A1 Facebook content, in my opinion.
Rob Collie (01:21:18):
Well, Chris, I know this has been a real honor for you, longtime listener, first time guest, that kind of thing.
Chris Rae (01:21:25):
It's been my dream ever since I started listening to this to really take part in it.
Rob Collie (01:21:29):
Yeah. I really have appreciated it. I learned a lot about your background I didn't know. You might be the clearest example yet of the contrast between, not into the math, not into that stuff, but really into this other stuff.
Chris Rae (01:21:41):
Right, and I have hope for people who are not into math but like computers.
Rob Collie (01:21:44):
That's right.
Chris Rae (01:21:45):
You too could be as successful as I am, have an inflatable boat and a book that makes you a hundred bucks a year.
Rob Collie (01:21:50):
Two inflatable boats.
Chris Rae (01:21:50):
Two inflatable boats, sorry. You're right, as of this morning, yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:21:55):
I really do appreciate you taking time to spend with us, it was great catching up with you.
Chris Rae (01:21:59):
Yeah, you too. This was just a lot of fun.
Announcer (01:22:01):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data By P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business, just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
There's a place where sports and data meet, and it's as powerful a collision as on any football field! Jeff Sagarin has been a figurehead in the sports analytics realm for decades, and we're thrilled to have had the chance to have him on to talk about his data journey! There's a fair mix of math AND sports geek out time in this episode. And, did we mention that Dr. Wayne Winston is sitting in on this episode as well?
References in this Episode:
2 Frictionless Colliding Boxes Video
Scorigami
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today's guest is Jeff Sagarin. Is that name familiar to you? It's very familiar to me. In my life, Jeff's work might very well be my first brush with the concept of using data for any sort of advantage. His Power Ranking Columns, first appeared in USA Today in 1985, when I was 11 years old. And what a fascinating concept that was.
Rob Collie (00:00:29):
It probably won't surprise you if I confess that 11-year-old me was not particularly good at sports, but I was still fascinated and captivated by them. 11-year-old kids in my neighborhood were especially prone to associating sports with their tribal identity. Everyone had their favorite teams, their favorite sports stars. And invariably, this led to arguments about which sports star was better than the other sports star, who was going to win this game coming up and who would win a tournament amongst all of these teams and things of that sort.
Rob Collie (00:01:01):
Now that I've explained it that way though, I guess being an adult sports fan isn't too terribly different, is it? Those arguments, of course, aren't the sorts of arguments where there's anything resembling a clear winner. But in practice, the person who won was usually the one with the loudest voice or the sickest burn that they could deliver to their friends. And then in 1985, the idea was planted in my head by Jeff Sagarin's column in USA Today, that there actually was a relatively objective way to evaluate teams that had never played against one another and likely never would.
Rob Collie (00:01:33):
I wasn't into computers at the time. I certainly wasn't into the concept of data. I didn't know what a database was. I didn't know what a spreadsheet was. And yet, this was still an incredibly captivating and powerful idea. So in my life, Jeff Sagarin is the first public figure that I encountered in the sports analytics industry long before it was cool. And because it was sports, a topic that was relevant to 11-year-old me, he's really also my first brush with analytics at all.
Rob Collie (00:02:07):
It's not surprising then, that to me, Jeff is absolutely a celebrity. As a guest, in insider podcasting lingo, Jeff is what we call a good get. We owe that pleasure, of course, to him being close friends with Wayne Winston, a former guest on the show, who also joined us today as co-guest.
Rob Collie (00:02:28):
Now, if none of that speaks to you, let's try this alternate description. He's probably also the world's most famous active FORTRAN programmer. I admit that I was so starstruck by this that I didn't even really push as hard as I normally would, in terms of getting into the techniques that he uses. I didn't want to run afoul of asking him for trade secrets. At times, this conversation did devolve into four dudes sitting around talking about sports.
Rob Collie (00:02:59):
But setting that aside, there are some really, really interesting and heartwarming things happening in this conversation as well. Again, the accidental path to where he is today, the intersection of persistence and good fortune that's required really for success in anything. Bottom line, this is the story of a national and highly influential figure at the intersection of the sports industry and the analytics industry for more than three decades. It's not every day you get to hear that story. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:03:34):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:03:39):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Colley and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
Welcome to the show, Jeff Sagarin. And welcome back to the show. Wayne Winston. So thrilled to have the two of you with us today. This is awesome. We've been looking forward to this for a long time. So thank you very much gentlemen, for being here.
Jeff Sagarin (00:04:16):
You're welcome.
Rob Collie (00:04:18):
Jeff, usually we kick these things off with, "Hey, tell us a little about yourself, your background, blah, blah, blah." Let's start off with me telling you about you. It's a story about you that you wouldn't know. I remember for a very long time being aware of you.
Rob Collie (00:04:35):
So I'm 47 years old, born in 1974. My father had participated for many years in this shady off-the-books college football pick'em pool that was run out of the high school in a small town in Florida. Like the sheets with everybody's entries would show up. They were run on ditto paper, like that blue ink. It was done in the school ditto room and he did this every year. This was like the most fascinating thing that happened in the entire year to me. Like these things showing up at our house, this packet of all these picks, believe it or not, they were handwritten. These grids were handwritten with everyone's picks. It was ridiculous.
Rob Collie (00:05:17):
He got eliminated every year. There were a couple of hundred entries every year and he just got his butt kicked every year. But then one year, he did his homework. He researched common opponents and things like that or that kind of stuff. I seem to recall this having something to do timing wise with you. So I looked it up. Your column first appeared in USA Today in 1985. Is that correct?
Jeff Sagarin (00:05:40):
Yeah. Tuesday, January 8th 1985.
Rob Collie (00:05:44):
I remember my dad winning this pool that year and using the funds to buy a telescope to look at Halley's Comet when it showed up. And so I looked up Halley's Comet. What do you know? '86. So it would have been like the January ballgames of 1986, where he won this pool. And in '85, were you power ranking college football teams or was that other sports?
Jeff Sagarin (00:06:11):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:06:12):
Okay. So when my dad said that he did his research that year, what he really did was read your stuff. You bought my dad a telescope in 1986 so that we could go have one of the worst family vacations of all time. It was just awful. Thank you.
Jeff Sagarin (00:06:31):
You're very welcome.
Rob Collie (00:06:39):
I kind of think of you as the first publicly known figure in sports analytics. You probably weren't the first person to apply math and computers to sports analytics, but you're the first person I heard of.
Jeff Sagarin (00:06:51):
There is a guy that people don't even talk about very much. Now a guy named Earnshaw Cook, who first inspired me when I was a sophomore in high school in the '63-'64 school year, there was an article by Frank Deford in Sports Illustrated about Earnshaw Cook publishing a book called Percentage Baseball. So I convinced my mom to let me have $10 to order it by mail and I got it. I started playing around with his various ideas in it. He was the first guy I ever heard of and that was in March of 1964.
Rob Collie (00:07:28):
All right, so everyone's got an origin story.
Jeff Sagarin (00:07:31):
The Dunkel family started doing the Dunkel ratings back I believe in 1929. Then there was a professor, I think he was at Vanderbilt, named [Lipkin House 00:07:41], he was I think at Vanderbilt. And for years, he did the high school ratings in states like maybe Tennessee and Kentucky. I think he gave Kentucky that Louisville courier his methodology before he died. But I don't know if they continue his work or not. But there were people way before me.
Rob Collie (00:08:03):
But they weren't in USA Today.
Jeff Sagarin (00:08:04):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:08:06):
They weren't nationally distributed, like on a very regular basis. I've been hearing your name longer than I've even been working with computers. That's pretty crazy. How did you even get hooked up with USA Today?
Jeff Sagarin (00:08:23):
People might say, "You got lucky." My answer, as you'll see as well, I'd worked for 12 years to be in a position to get lucky. I started getting paid for doing this in September of 1972 with an in-house publication of pro football weekly called Insider's Pro Football Newsletter.
Jeff Sagarin (00:08:45):
In the Spring of '72, I'd written letters to like 100 newspapers saying because I had started by hand doing my own rating system for pro football in the fall of 1971. Just by hand, every Sunday night, I'd get the scores and add in the Monday night. I did it as a hobby. I wasn't doing it for a living. I did it week by week and charted the teams. It was all done with some charts I'd made up with a normal distribution and a slide rule. So I sent out letters in the spring of '72 to about 100 papers saying, "Hey, would you be interested in running my stuff?"
Jeff Sagarin (00:09:19):
They either didn't answer me or all said, "No, not interested." But I got a call right before I left to go to California when an old college friend that spring. It was from William Wallace, who was a big time football correspondent for The New York Times. That anecdote may be in that article by Andy Glockner. He called me up, he was at the New York Times, but he said also, "I write articles for extra money for pro football weekly. I wanted to just kind of talk to you."
Jeff Sagarin (00:09:49):
He wrote an article that appeared in Pro Quarterback magazine in September of '72. But during the middle of that summer, I got a phone call from Pro Football weekly, the publisher, a guy named [inaudible 00:10:04] said, "Hey Jeff. Have you seen our ad in street and Smith's?" It didn't matter. It could have been their pro magazine or college. I said, "Yeah, I did." And he said, "Do you notice it said we've got a world famous handicapper to do our predictions for us?" I said, "Yeah, I did see that." He said, "How would you like to be that world famous handicapper? We don't have anybody."
Jeff Sagarin (00:10:25):
We just said that because he said William Wallace told us to call you. So I said, "Okay, I'll be your world famous handicapper." I didn't start off that well and they had this customer, it was a paid newsletter and there was a customer from Hawaii. He had a great name, Charles Fujiwara. He'd send letters every week saying, "Sagarin's terrible, but he's winning a fortune for me. I just reverse his picks every week." So finally, finally, my numbers turn the tide and I had this one great week, where I went 8-0. He sent another letter saying, "I'm bankrupt. The kid destroyed me." Because he was reversing all my picks. That's a true story.
Rob Collie (00:11:07):
At least he had a sense of humor. It sounds like a pretty interesting fellow on the other end of that letter.
Jeff Sagarin (00:11:13):
He sounds like he could have been like the guy, if you've ever seen reruns of the old show, '77 Sunset Strip. In it, there this guy who's kind of a racetrack trout gambler named Roscoe. He sounds like he could have been Roscoe.
Rob Collie (00:11:26):
We have to look that one up.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:11:27):
It's before your time.
Rob Collie (00:11:28):
I don't think I saw that show.
Jeff Sagarin (00:11:29):
Yeah. Wayne's seen it though.
Rob Collie (00:11:31):
Yes. I love that. There are things that are both before my time and I have like old man knees. So I've heard this kind of thing before, by the way. It's called the 10-year overnight success.
Jeff Sagarin (00:11:47):
I forgot. How did I get with USA Today? I started with Pro Football weekly and continued with them. I was with them until actually why don't we say sometime in the fall of '82. I ended up in other newspapers, little by little: The Boston Globe, Louisville Courier Journal. And then in the spring of '81, I got into a conversation over the phone with Jim van Valkenburg, who is the stat guy at the NCAA. I happened to mention that going into the tournament, I had Indiana to win the tournament. They were rated like 10th in the conventional polls.
Jeff Sagarin (00:12:23):
And so he remembered that and he kept talking behind the scenes to people in the NCAA about that. And so years later, in 1988, they called me out to talk to them. But anyhow, I had developed a good reputation and I gave him as a reference. Wayne called me up excitedly in let's say, early September of 1984. He said, "Hey, Jeff. You've got to buy a copy of today's USA Today and turn to the end of the sports section. You're going to be sick."
Jeff Sagarin (00:12:53):
I said, "Really? Okay." So I opened to where he said and I was sick. They had computer ratings by some guy. He was a good guy named Thomas Jech, J-E-C-H. And I said, "Damn, that should be me. I've been doing this for all these years and I didn't even know they were looking for this." So I call up on the phone. Sometimes there's a lot of luck involved. I got to talk to a guy named Bob Barbara who I believe is retired now there. He had on the phone this gruff sounding voice out of like a Grade B movie from the film, The War. "What's going on Kitty?" It sounds like he had a cigar in his mouth.
Jeff Sagarin (00:13:30):
I said, "Well, I do these computer ratings." [inaudible 00:13:33] Said "Well, really? That's interesting. We've already got somebody." He said, "But how would you even send it to us?" I said, "Well, I dictate over the phone." He said, "Dictate? We don't take dictation at USA Today, kid. Have you ever heard of personal computers and a modem?" I said, "Well, I have but I just do it on a mainframe at IU and I dictate over the phone to the Louisville Courier and the local..."
Jeff Sagarin (00:13:58):
Well, the local paper here, I gave them a printout. He said, "Kid, you need to buy yourself a PC and learn how to use a modem." So I kind of was embarrassed. I said, "Well, I'll see." So about 10 days later, I called him up and said, "Hey, what's the phone number for your modem?" He said, "Crap. You again, kid? I thought I got rid of you." He says, "All right. I'll give you the phone number." So I sent him a sample printout. He says, "Yeah, yeah, we got it. Keep in touch. We're not going to change for football. But this other guy, he may not want to do basketball. So keep in touch. Who knows what will happen for basketball?"
Jeff Sagarin (00:14:31):
So every month I'd call up saying, "It's me again, keeping touch." He said, "I can't get rid of you. You're like a bad penny that keeps turning up." So finally he says look, after about five of these calls, spreading out until maybe late November, "Look kid, why don't you wait... Call me up the first Sunday of the new year," which would have been like Sunday, January 6 of 1985 I believe. So I waited. I called him up. Sure enough, he said, "You again?" I said, "You told me you wanted to do college basketball."
Jeff Sagarin (00:15:04):
He said, "Yeah, you're kind of right. The other guy doesn't want to do it." So he said, "Well, do you mind if we call it the USA Today computer ratings? We kind of like to put our own name on everything." I said, "Well, wait a minute. During the World Series, you had Pete Rose as your guest columnist, you want not only gave his name, but you had a picture of him." He said, "God damn it." He said, "I can't..." He said, "You win again kid. Give us a bio."
Jeff Sagarin (00:15:32):
An old friend of both me and Wayne was on a business trip. He lived in California, but one of the companies he did work for was Magnavox, which at the time had a presence in Fort Wayne. So he had stopped off in Bloomington so we could say hi. We hadn't seen each other for many years. So he wrote my bio for me, which is still used in the agate in the USA Today. So it's the same bio all these years.
Jeff Sagarin (00:15:56):
So they started printing me on Tuesday, January 8 of 1985. On the front page that day and I got my editor of a couple years ago, he found an old physical copy of that paper and sent it to me and I thought that's pretty cool. And on the front page, they said, "Well, this would be the 50th birthday of Elvis Presley." I get, they did not have a banner headline at the top, "Turn to the sports and see Jeff Sagarin's debut." That was not what they did. It was all about Elvis Presley. And so people will tell me, "Wow! You got really lucky."
Jeff Sagarin (00:16:30):
Yeah, but I was in a position. I'd worked for 12 years since the fall of '72 to get in position to then get lucky. They told me I had some good recommendations from people.
Rob Collie (00:16:42):
Well, even that persistence to keep calling in the face of relatively discouraging feedback. So that conversation took place, and then two days later, you're in the paper.
Jeff Sagarin (00:16:54):
Well, yeah. He said, "Send us the ratings." They might have needed a time lag. So if I sent the ratings in on a Sunday night or Monday morning, they'd print them on Tuesday. They're not as instant. Now, I update every day on their website. For the paper, they take whatever the most recent ones they can access off their website, depending on I've sent it in, which is I always send them in early in the morning like when I get up. So they print on a Tuesday there'll be taking the ratings that they would have had in their hands Monday, which would be through Sunday's games.
Rob Collie (00:17:26):
That Tuesday, was that just college basketball?
Jeff Sagarin (00:17:28):
Then it was. Then in the fall of 85. They began using me for college football, not that they thought I was better or worse one way or the other than Thomas Jech who was a smart guy, he was a math professor at the time at Penn State. He just got tired of doing it. He had more important things to do. Serious, I don't mean that sarcastically. That was just like a fun hobby for him from what I understand.
Rob Collie (00:17:50):
I was going to ask you if you hadn't already gone and answered the question ahead of time. I was going to ask you well, what happened to the other guy? Did you go like all Tonya Harding on him or whatever? Did you take out your rival? No, sounds like Nancy Kerrigan just went ahead and retired. Although I hate to make you Tonya Harding in this analogy and I just realized I just Hardinged you.
Jeff Sagarin (00:18:10):
He was just evidently a really good math professor. It was just something he did for fun to do the ratings.
Rob Collie (00:18:17):
Opportunity and preparation right where they intersect. That's "luck".
Jeff Sagarin (00:18:22):
It would be as if Wally Pipp had retired and Lou Gehrig got to replace him in the analogy, Lou Gehrig gets the first base job but actually Wally Pipp in real life did not retire. He had the bad luck to get a cold or something or an injury and he never got back in the starting lineup after that.
Rob Collie (00:18:38):
What about Drew Bledsoe? I think he did get hurt. Did we ever see him again?
Thomas LaRock (00:18:43):
The very next season, he was in Buffalo and then he went to Dallas.
Rob Collie (00:18:46):
I don't remember this at all.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:47):
And not only that, but when he went to Dallas, he got hurt again and Tony Romo came on to take over.
Rob Collie (00:18:53):
Oh my god! So Drew Bledsoe is Wally Pipp X2.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:58):
Yeah, X2.
Rob Collie (00:19:02):
I just need to go find wherever Drew Bledsoe is right now and go get in line behind him.
Thomas LaRock (00:19:08):
He's making wine in Walla Walla, Washington. I know exactly where he is.
Rob Collie (00:19:12):
I'm about to inherit a vineyard gentlemen. Okay, so Wayne's already factored into this story.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:19:23):
A little bit.
Rob Collie (00:19:23):
A bit part but an important one. We would call you Mr. Narrative Hook in the movie. Like you'd be the guy that's like, "Jeff, you've got to get a copy of USA Today and turn to page 10. You're going to be sick."
Jeff Sagarin (00:19:37):
Well, I was I'm glad Wayne told me to do it. If I'd never known that, who knows what I'd be doing right now?
Rob Collie (00:19:44):
Yeah. So you guys are longtime friends, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:19:47):
Yeah. Jeff, should take this.
Jeff Sagarin (00:19:49):
September 1967 in the TV room at Ashdown Graduate's House across from the dorm we lived, because the graduate students there had rigged up, we call it a full screen TV that was actually quite huge. It's simply projected from a regular TV onto a maybe a 10 foot by 10 foot old fashioned movie projector screen. We'd go there to watch ballgames. Okay, because better than watching on a 10 inch diagonal black and white TV in the dorm. And it turned out we both had a love for baseball and football games.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:26):
So just to be clear, though, this was no ordinary school. This is MIT. Because this is what people at MIT would do is take some weird tech thing and go, "We can make this even better, make a big screen TV."
Jeff Sagarin (00:20:38):
We didn't know how to do it, which leads into Wayne's favorite story about our joint science escapades at MIT. If Wayne wants to start it off, you might like this. I was a junior and Wayne was a sophomore at the time. I'll set Wayne up for it, there was a requirement that MIT no matter what your major, one of the sort of distribution courses you had to take was a laboratory class. Why don't we let Wayne take the ball for a while on this?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:21:05):
I'm not very mechanically inclined. I got a D in wood shop and a D in metal shop. Jeff's not very mechanically inclined either. We took this lab class and we were trying to figure out identifying a coin based on the sound waves it would produce under the Scylla scope. And so the first week, we couldn't get the machine to work. And the professor said, "Turn it on." And so we figured that step out and the next week, the machine didn't work. He said, "Plug it in." Jeff can take it from there.
Jeff Sagarin (00:21:46):
It didn't really fit the mathematical narrative exactly of what metals we knew were in the coin. But then I noticed, nowadays we'd probably figure out this a reason. If we multiplied our answers by something like 100 pi, we got the right numbers. So they were correctly proportional. So we just multiplied our answers by 100 pi and said, "As you can see, it's perfectly deducible."
Rob Collie (00:22:14):
There's a YouTube video that we should probably link that is crazy. It shows that two boxes on a frictionless surface a simulation and the number of times that they collide, when you slide them towards a wall together, when they're like at 10X ratio of mass, the number of times that they impact each other starts to become the digits of pi.
Jeff Sagarin (00:22:34):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:22:35):
Before they separate.
Jeff Sagarin (00:22:36):
That's interesting.
Rob Collie (00:22:36):
It's just bizarre. And then they go through explaining like why it is pi and you understand it while the video is playing. And then the video ends and you've completely lost it.
Jeff Sagarin (00:22:49):
I'm just asking now, are they saying if you do that experiment an infinite amount of times, the average number of times they collide will be pi?
Rob Collie (00:22:57):
That's a really good question. I think it's like the number of collisions as you increase the ratios of the weight or something like that start to become. It's like you'll get 314 collisions, for instance, in a certain weight ratio, because that's the only three digits of pi that I remember. It's 3.14. It's a fascinating little watch. So the 100 pi thing, you said that, I'm like, "Yeah, that just... Of course it's 100 pi." Even boxes colliding on a frictionless surface do pi things apparently.
Jeff Sagarin (00:23:29):
Maybe it's a universal constant in everything we do.
Rob Collie (00:23:29):
You just don't expect pi to surface itself. It has nothing to do with waves, no wavelength, no arcs of circles, nothing like that. But that sneaky video, they do show you that it actually has something to do with circles and angles and stuff.
Jeff Sagarin (00:23:44):
Mutual friend of me and Wayne, this guy named Robin. He loves Fibonacci. And so every time I see a particular game end by a certain score, I'll just say, "Hey, Robin. Research the score of..." I think it was blooming to North against some other team. And he did. It turned out Bloomington North had won 155-34, which are the two adjacent Fibonacci, the two particular adjacent Fibonacci. Robin loves that stuff. You'll find a lot of that actually. It's hard to double Fibonacci a team though. That would be like 89-34.
Rob Collie (00:24:18):
I know about the Fibonacci sequence. But I can't pick Fibonacci sequence numbers out of the wild. Are you familiar with Scorigami?
Jeff Sagarin (00:24:26):
Who? I'd never heard of it obviously.
Rob Collie (00:24:29):
I think a Scorigami is a score in the NFL that's never happened.
Jeff Sagarin (00:24:32):
There was one like that about 10 years ago, 11-10, I believe. Pittsburgh was involved in the game or 12-11, something like that.
Rob Collie (00:24:40):
I think there was a Scorigami in last season. With scoring going up, the chances of Scorigami is increasing. There's just more variance at the higher end of the spectrum of numbers, right?
Jeff Sagarin (00:24:50):
I've always thought about this. In Canada, Canadian football, they have this extra rule that I think is kind of cool because it would probably make more scores happen. If a punter kicks the ball into the end zone, it can't roll there. Like if he kicks it on the fly into the end zone and the other team can't run it out, it's called a rouge and the kicking team gets one point for it. That's kind of cool. Because once you add the concept of scoring one point, you make a lot more scores more probable of happening.
Rob Collie (00:25:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. You can win 1-0.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:25):
So the end zone is also... It's 20 yards deep. So the field's longer, it's 110 yards. But the end zone's deeper and part of it is that it's too far to kick for a field goal. But you know what? If I can punt it into the end zone and if I get a cover team down there, we can get one point out. I'm in favor of it. I think that'd be great.
Jeff Sagarin (00:25:43):
I think you have to kick out on the fly into the end zone. It's not like if it rolls into it.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:47):
No, no, no. It's like a pop flop.
Jeff Sagarin (00:25:50):
Yeah. Okay.
Rob Collie (00:25:50):
If you punt it out of the end zone, is it also a point?
Thomas LaRock (00:25:52):
It's a touch back. No, touch back.
Jeff Sagarin (00:25:54):
That'd be too easy of a way to get a point.
Rob Collie (00:25:57):
You've had a 20 yard deep target to land in. In Canadian fantasy football, if there was such a thing, maybe there is, punters, you actually could have punters as a position because they can score points. That would be a really sad and un-fun way to play.
Rob Collie (00:26:14):
But so we're amateur sports analytics people here on the show. We're not professionals. We're probably not even very good at it. But that doesn't mean that we aren't fascinated by it. We're business analytics people here for sure. Business and sports, they might share some techniques, but it's just very, very, very different, the things that are valuable in the two spaces. I mean, they're sort of spiritually linked but they're not really tools or methods that provide value.
Rob Collie (00:26:39):
Not that you would give them. But we're not looking for any of your secrets here today. But you're not just writing for USA Today, there's a number of places where your skills are used these days, right?
Jeff Sagarin (00:26:51):
Well, not as much as that. But I want to make a favorable analogy for Wayne. In the world of sports analytics, whatever the phrases are, I consider myself to be maybe an experimental applied physicist. Wayne is an advanced theoretical physicist. I do the grunt work of collecting data and doing stuff with it. But Wayne has a large over-viewing of things. He's like a theoretical physicist.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:27:17):
Jeff is too modest because he's experimented for years on the best parameters for his models.
Rob Collie (00:27:27):
It's again that 10-year, 20-year overnight success type of thing. You've just got to keep grinding at it. Do the two of you collaborate at all?
Jeff Sagarin (00:27:35):
Well, we did on two things, the Hoops computer game and Win Val. I forgot. How could I forget? It was actually my favorite thing that we did even though we've made no money doing the randomization using Game Theory of play calling for football. And we based it actually and it turned out that I got great numerical results that jive with empirical stuff that Virgil Carter had gotten and our economist, named Romer, had gotten and we had more detailed results than them.
Jeff Sagarin (00:28:06):
But in the areas that we intersected, we had the same as them. We used a game called Pro Quarterback and we modeled it. We had actually, a fellow, I wasn't a professor but a fellow professor of Wayne's, a great guy, just a great guy named Vic Cabot, who wrote a particular routine to insert the FORTRAN program that solved that particular linear programming problem that would constantly reoccur or else we couldn't do it. That was the favorite thing and we got to show it once to Sam White, who we really liked. And White said, "I like this guy. I may have played this particular game," we told him what we based it on, "when I was a teenager."
Jeff Sagarin (00:28:46):
He said, "I know exactly what you want to do." You don't make the same call in the same situation all the time. You have a random, but there's an optimal mix Game Theory, as you probably know for both offense and defense. White said, "The problem is this is my first year here. It was the summer of '83." And he said, "I don't really have the security." Said, "Imagine it's third and one, we're on our own 15 yard line. And it's third and one. And the random number generator says, 'Throw the bomb on this play with a 10% chance of calling up but it'll still be in the mix. And it happens to come up.'"
Jeff Sagarin (00:29:23):
He said, "It was my eight year here. I used to play these games myself. I know exactly." But then he patted his hip. He said, "It's mine on the line this first year." He said, "It's kind of nerve wracking to do that when you're a rookie coach somewhere, to call the bomb when it's third and one on your own 15. If it's incomplete, you'll be booed out of the stadium."
Rob Collie (00:29:46):
Yeah, I mean, it's similar to there's the general reluctance in coaches for so long to go for it on fourth and one. When the analytics were very, very, very clear that this was a plus expected value, +EV, move to go for it on fourth and one. But the thing is, you've got to consider the bigger picture. Right? The incentives, the coaches number one goal is actually don't get fired.
Jeff Sagarin (00:30:14):
You were right. That's what White was telling us.
Rob Collie (00:30:14):
Yeah. Winning a Super Bowl is a great thing to do. Because it helps you not get fired. It's actually weird. Like, if your goal is to win as many games as possible, yes, go for it on fourth and one. But if your goal is to not get fired, maybe. So it takes a bit more courage even to follow the numbers. And for good reason, because the incentives aren't really aligned the way that we think they are when you first glance at a situation.
Jeff Sagarin (00:30:41):
Well, there's a human factor that there's no way unless you're making a guess how to take it into account. It may be demoralizing to your defense if you go for it on fourth and one and you're on your own 15. I've seen the numbers, we used to do this. It's a good mathematical move to go for it. Because you could say, "Well, if you're forced to punt, the other team is going to start on the 50. So what's so good about that? But psychologically, your defense may be kind of pissed off and demoralized when they have to come out on the field and defend from their own 15 after you've not made it and the numbers don't take that into account.
Rob Collie (00:31:19):
Again, it's that judgment thing. Like the coach hung out to dry.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:22):
Can I say a word about Vic Cabot, that Jeff mentioned?
Jeff Sagarin (00:31:26):
Yeah, He's great.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:27):
Yeah. So Vic was the greatest guy any of us in the business school ever knew. He was a fantastic person. He died of throat cancer in 1994, actually 27 years ago this week or last week.
Jeff Sagarin (00:31:43):
Last week. It was right around Labor Day.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:46):
Right. But I want to mention, basically, when he died, his daughter was working in the NYU housing office. After he died, she wrote a little book called The Princess Diaries. She's worth how many millions of dollars now? But he never got to see it.
Jeff Sagarin (00:32:06):
He had a son, a big kid named Matt Cabot, who played at Bloomington South High School. I got a nice story about Matthew. I believe the last time I know of him, he was a state trooper in the state of Colorado. I used to tell him when I was still young enough and Spry enough, we'd play a little pickup or something. I'd say, "Matthew, forget about points. The most important thing, a real man gets rebounds."
Jeff Sagarin (00:32:32):
They played in the semi state is when it was just one class. In '88, me and Wayne and a couple of Wayne's professor buddies, we all... Of course, Vic would have been there but we didn't go in the same car. It was me, Wayne and maybe [inaudible 00:32:48] and somebody else, Wayne?
Jeff Sagarin (00:32:49):
They played against Chandler Thompson's great team from Muncie Central. In the first three minutes, Chris Lawson, who was the star of the team went up for his patented turn around jumper from six feet away in the lane and Chandler Thompson spiked it like a volleyball and on the run of Muncie Central player took it with no one near him and laid it in and the game essentially ended but Matt Cabot had the game of his life.
Jeff Sagarin (00:33:21):
I think he may have led the game of anyone, the most rebounds in the game. I compliment him. He was proud of that. And he's played, he said many a pickup game with Chandler Thompson, he said the greatest jumper he's ever been on the court within his entire life. You guys look up because I don't know if you know who Chandler Thompson. Is he played at Ball State. Look up on YouTube his put back dunk against UNLV in the 90 tournaments, the year UNLV won it at all. Look up Chandler Thompson's put back dunk.
Rob Collie (00:33:52):
Yeah, I was just getting into basketball then, I think. Like in the Loyola Marymount days. Yeah, Jerry Tarkanian. Does college basketball have the same amount of personalities it used to like in the coaching figures. I kind of doubt that it does.
Rob Collie (00:34:06):
With Tark gone, and of course, Bob Knight, it'll be hard to replace personalities like that. I don't know. I don't really watch college basketball anymore, so I wouldn't really know. But I get invited into those pick'em pools for the tournament March Madness every year and I never had the stamina to fill them out. And they offer those sheets where they'll fill it out for you. But why would I do that?
Jeff Sagarin (00:34:28):
I've got to tell you a story involving Wayne and I.
Rob Collie (00:34:31):
Okay.
Jeff Sagarin (00:34:31):
In the 80 tournament, I had gotten a program running that would to simulate the tournament if you fed in the power ratings. It understood who'd play who and you simulate it a zillion times, come up with the odds. So going into the tournament, we had Purdue maybe the true odds against him should have been let's say, I'll make it up seven to one. Purdue and Iowa, they had Ronnie Lester, I remember.
Jeff Sagarin (00:34:57):
The true odds against them should have been about 7-1. The bookmakers were giving odds of 40-1. So Wayne and I looked at each other and said, "That seems like a big edge." In theory, well, odds are still against them. Let's bet $25 apiece on both Purdue and Iowa. The two of them made the final four.
Jeff Sagarin (00:35:20):
In Indianapolis, I'll put it this way, their consolation game gave us no consolation.
Rob Collie (00:35:30):
Man.
Jeff Sagarin (00:35:31):
And then one of the games, Joe Barry Carroll of Purdue, they're down by one they UCLA. I'm sure he was being contested. I don't mean he was all by himself. It's always easy for the fan who can't play to mock the player. I don't mean... He was being fiercely contested by UCLA. The net result was he missed with fierce contesting one foot layup that would have won the game for Purdue, that would have put them into the championship game and Iowa could have beaten Louisville, except their best player, Ronnie Lester had to leave the game because he had aggravated a bad knee injury that he just couldn't play well on.
Jeff Sagarin (00:36:11):
But as I said, no consolation, right Wayne?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:14):
Right.
Jeff Sagarin (00:36:15):
That was the next to the last year they ever had a consolation game. The last one was in '81 between LSU and Virginia.
Rob Collie (00:36:23):
Was it the '81 tournament that you said that you liked Indiana to win it?
Jeff Sagarin (00:36:28):
Wait, I'm going to show you how you get punished for hubris. I learned my lesson. The next year in '82, I had gotten a lot of notoriety, good kind of notoriety for having them to win in '81. People thought, "Wow! This is like the Oracle." So now as the tournament's about to begin in '82, I started getting a lot of calls, which I never used to do like from the media, "Who do you got Jeff?" I said confidently, "Oregon State." I had them number one, I think they'd only lost one game the whole year and they had a guy named Charlie Sitting, a 6'8 guy who was there all American forward.
Jeff Sagarin (00:37:06):
He was the star and I was pretty confident and to be honest, probably obnoxious when I'd be talking to the press. So they make the regional final against Georgetown and it was being held out west. I'm sort of confidently waiting for the game to be played and I'm sure there'll be advancing to the final four. And they were playing against freshmen, Patrick Ewing.
Jeff Sagarin (00:37:29):
In the first 10 seconds of the game, maybe you can find the video, there was a lob pass into Ewing, his back was to the basket, he's like three feet from the basket without even looking, he dunks backwards over his head over Charlie Sitton. And you should see the expression on Charlie Sitton's face. I said, "Oh my god! This game is over." The final score was 68-43 in Georgetown's favor. It was a massacre. It taught me the lesson, never be cocky, at least in public because you get slapped down, you get slapped down when you do that.
Rob Collie (00:38:05):
I don't want to get into this yet again on this show. But you should call up Nate Silver and maybe talk to him a little bit about the same sort of thing. Makes very big public calls that haven't been necessarily so great lately. Just for everyone's benefit, because even though I'd live in the state of Indiana, I didn't grow up here. Let's just be clear. Who won the NCAA tournament in 1981?
Jeff Sagarin (00:38:29):
Indiana.
Rob Collie (00:38:30):
Okay. All right, so there you go. Right.
Jeff Sagarin (00:38:33):
But who didn't win it in 1982? Oregon State.
Rob Collie (00:38:38):
Yeah. Did you see The Hunt for Red October where Jack Ryan's character, there's a point where he guesses. He says, "Ramy, as always, goes to port in the bottom half of the hour with his crazy Ivan maneuvers and he turns out to be right." And that's how he ends up getting the captain of the American sub to trust him as Jack Ryan knew this Captain so well, even knew which direction he would turn in the crazy Ivan. But it turns out he was just bluffing. He knew he needed a break and it was 50/50.
Rob Collie (00:39:08):
So it's a good thing that they were talking to you in the Indiana year, originally. Not the Oregon State year. That wouldn't be a good first impression. If you had to have it go one way or the other in those two years, the order in which it happened was the right order.
Jeff Sagarin (00:39:22):
Yeah, nobody would have listened to me. They would have said, "You got lucky." They said, "You still were terrible in the Oregon State year."
Rob Collie (00:39:28):
But you just pick the 10th rated team and be right. The chances of that being just luck are pretty low. I like it. That's a good story. So the two of you have never collaborated like on the Mark Cuban stuff? On the Mavs or any of that?
Jeff Sagarin (00:39:43):
We've done three things together. The Hoops computer game, which we did from '86-'95. And then we did the Game Theory thing for football, but we never got a client. But we did get White to kind of follow it. There's an interesting anecdote, I won't I mentioned the guy who kind of screwed it up. But he assigned a particular grad assistant to fill and we needed a matrix filled in each week with a bunch of numbers with regarding various things like turnovers.
Jeff Sagarin (00:40:13):
If play A is called against defense B, what would happen type of thing? The grad assistant hated doing it. And one week, he gave us numbers such that the computer came back with when Indiana had the ball, it should quick kick on first down every time it got the ball. We figured it out what was going on, the guy had given Indiana a 15% chance of a turnover, no matter what play they called in any situation against any defense.
Jeff Sagarin (00:40:44):
So the computer correctly surmised it were better to punt the ball. This is like playing Russian roulette with the ball. Let's just kick it away. So we ended up losing the game in real life 10-0. White told us then when we next saw him, we used to see him on Monday or Tuesday mornings, real early in the day, like seven o'clock, but that's when you could catch him. And he kind of looked at us and said, "You know what? We couldn't have done any worse said had we kicked [inaudible 00:41:14]."
Rob Collie (00:41:13):
That's nice.
Jeff Sagarin (00:41:14):
And then we did Mark Cuban. That was the last thing. We did that with Cuban from basically 2000-2011 with a couple of random projects in the summer for him, but really on a day to day basis during a season from 2000-2011.
Rob Collie (00:41:30):
And during that era is when I met Wayne at Microsoft. That was very much an active, ongoing project when Wayne was there in Redmond a couple of times that we crossed paths.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:41:43):
And we worked for the Knicks one year, and they won 54 games.
Jeff Sagarin (00:41:47):
Here with Glen Grunwald. So they won more games than they'd ever won in a whole bunch of years. And like three weeks before the season starts or so in mid September, the next fire, Glen Grunwald. Let's put it this way, it didn't bother us that the Knicks never made the playoffs again until this past season.
Rob Collie (00:42:10):
That's great. You were doing, was it lineup optimization for those teams?
Jeff Sagarin (00:42:15):
Wayne knows more about this than I do. Because I would create the raw data, well, I call it output, but it needed refinement. That was Wayne's department. So you do all the talking now, Wayne.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:42:26):
Yeah. Jeff wrote an amazing FORTRAN program. So basically, Jeff rated teams and we figured out we could rate players based on how the score of the game moved during the game. We could evaluate lineups and figure out head to head how certain players did against each other. Now, every team does this stuff and ESPN has Real Plus-Minus and Nate Silver has Raptor. But we started this.
Jeff Sagarin (00:42:58):
I mean, everybody years ago knew about Plus-Minus. Well, intuitively, let's say you're a gym rat, you first come to a gym, you don't know anyone there and you start getting in the crowd of guys that show up every afternoon to play pickup. You start sensing, you don't even have to know their names. Hey, when that guy is on the court, no matter who his teammates are, they seem to win.
Jeff Sagarin (00:43:20):
Or when this guy's on the court, they always seem to lose. Intuitively since it matters, who's on the court with you and who your opponents are. Like to make an example for Rob, let's say you happen to be in a pickup game. You've snuck into Pauley Pavilion during the summer and you end up with like four NBA current playing professionals on your team and let's say an aging Michael Jordan now shows up. He ends up with four guys who are graduate students in philosophy because they have to exercise. You're going to have a better plus-minus than Michael Jordan. But when you take into account who your teammates were and who's his were, if you knew enough about the players, he'd have a better rating than you, new Michael Jordan would.
Jeff Sagarin (00:44:08):
But you'd have a better raw plus-minus than he would. You have to know who the people on the court were. That was Wayne's insight. Tell them how it all started, how you met ran into Mark Cuban, Wayne, when you were in Dallas?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:20):
Well, Mark was in my class in 1981, statistics class and I guess the year 1999, we went to a Pacers Maverick game in Dallas.
Jeff Sagarin (00:44:31):
March of 2000.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:33):
March of 2000, because our son really liked the Pacers. Mark saw me in the stands. He said, "I remember you from class and I remember you for being on Jeopardy." He had just bought the team. And he said, "If you can do anything to help the Mavericks, let me know." And then I was swimming in the pool one day and I said, "If Jeff rates teams, we should rate players." And so we worked on this and Jeff wrote this amazing FORTRAN program, which I'm sure he could not rewrite today.
Jeff Sagarin (00:45:04):
Oh, God. Well, I was motivated then. Willingness to work hard for many hours at a time, for days at a time to get something to work when you could use the money that would result from it. I don't have that in me anymore. I'm amazed when I look at the source code. I say, "Man, I couldn't do that now." I like to think I could. Necessity is the mother of invention.
Rob Collie (00:45:28):
I've many, many, many times said and this is still true to this day, like a previous version of me that made something amazing like built a model or something like that, I look back and go, "Whoo, I was really smart back then." Well, at the same time I know I'm improving. I know that I'm more capable today than I was a year ago. Even just accrued wisdom makes a big difference. When you really get lasered in on something and are very, very focused on it, you're suddenly able to execute at just a higher level than what you're typically used to.
Jeff Sagarin (00:46:01):
As time went on, we realized what Cuban wanted and other teams like the next would want. Nobody really wanted to wade through the monster set of files that the FORTRAN would create. I call that the raw output that nobody wanted to read, but it was needed. Wayne wrote these amazing routines in Excel that became understandable and usable by the clients.
Jeff Sagarin (00:46:26):
The way Wayne wrote the Excel, they could basically say, "Tell us what happens when these three guys are in the lineup, but these two guys are not in the lineup." It was amazing the stuff that he wrote. Wayne doesn't give himself the credit that otherwise after a while, nobody would have wanted what we were doing because what I did was this sort of monstrous and to some extent boring.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:46:48):
This is what Rob's company does basically. They try and distill data into understandable form that basically helps the company make decisions.
Rob Collie (00:46:58):
It is a heck of a discipline, right? Because if you have the technical and sort of mental skills to execute on something that's that complex, and it starts down in the weeds and just raw inputs, it's actually really, really, really easy to hand it off in a form that isn't yet quite actionable for the intended audience. It's really fascinating to you, the person that created it.
Rob Collie (00:47:23):
It's not digestible or actionable yet for the consumer crowd, whoever the target consumer is. I've been there. I've handed off a lot of things back in the day and said, "The professional equivalent of..." And it turned out to not be... It turned out to be, "Go back and actually make it useful, Rob." So I'm familiar with that. For sure. I think I've gotten better at that over the years. As a journey, you're never really complete with. Something I wanted to throw in here before I forget, which is, Jeff, you have an amazing command of certain dates.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:56):
Oh, yeah.
Jeff Sagarin (00:47:57):
Give me some date that you know the answer about what day of the week it was, and I'll tell you, but I'll tell you how I did it.
Rob Collie (00:48:04):
Okay, how about June 6, 1974?
Jeff Sagarin (00:48:08):
That'd be a Thursday.
Rob Collie (00:48:10):
Holy cow. Okay. How do you do that?
Jeff Sagarin (00:48:11):
June 11th of 1974 would be a Tuesday, so five days earlier would be a Thursday.
Rob Collie (00:48:19):
How do you know June 11?
Jeff Sagarin (00:48:19):
I just do.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:23):
It's his birthday.
Rob Collie (00:48:24):
No, it's not. He wasn't born in '74.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:27):
No, but June 11th.
Jeff Sagarin (00:48:29):
I happen to know that June 11 was a Tuesday in 1974, that's all.
Rob Collie (00:48:34):
I'm still sitting here waiting what passes for an explanation. Is one coming?
Jeff Sagarin (00:48:39):
I'll tell you another way I could have done it, but I didn't. In 1963, John Kennedy gave his famous speech in Berlin, Ich bin ein Berliner, on Wednesday, June 26th. That means that three weeks earlier was June 5, the Wednesday. So Thursday would have been June 6th. You're going to say, "Well, why is that relevant?" Well, 1963 is congruent to 1974 days of the week was.
Rob Collie (00:49:07):
Okay. This is really, really impressive. Jeff, you seem so normal up until now.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:16):
You want throw him off? Just ask for any date before 1759?
Jeff Sagarin (00:49:20):
No, I can do that. It'll take me a little longer though.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:22):
Because once they switch from Gregorian-
Jeff Sagarin (00:49:25):
No, well, I'll give it a Gregorian style, all right. I'm assuming that it's a Gregorian date. The calendar totally, totally repeats every possible cycle every 400 years. For example, if you happen to say, "What was September 10, of 1621?" I would quickly say, "It's a Friday." Because 1621 is exactly the same as 2021 says.
Rob Collie (00:49:52):
Does this translate into other domains as well? Do you have sort of other things that you can sort of get this quick, intuitive mastery over or is it very, very specific to this date arithmetic?
Jeff Sagarin (00:50:02):
Probably specific. In other words, I think Wayne's a bit quicker than me. I'm certain does mental arithmetic stuff, but to put everybody in their place, I don't think you ever met him, Wayne. Remember the soccer player, John Swan?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:50:14):
Yeah.
Jeff Sagarin (00:50:15):
He had a friend from high school, they went to Brownsburg High School. I forgot the kid's name. He was like a regular student at IU. He was not a well scholar, but he was a smart kid. I'd say he was slightly faster than me at most mental arithmetic things. So you should never get cocky and think that other people, "Oh, they don't have the pedigree." Some people are really good at stuff you don't expect them to be good at, really good. This kid was really good.
Rob Collie (00:50:45):
As humans, we need to hyper simplify things in order to have a mental model we can use to navigate a very, very complicated world. That's a bit of a strength. But it's also a weakness in many ways. We tend to try to reduce intelligence down to this single linear number line, when it's really like a vast multi dimensional coordinate space. There are so many dimensions of intelligence.
Rob Collie (00:51:11):
I grew up with the trope in my head that athletes weren't very bright. Until the first time that I had to try to run a pick and roll versus pick and pop. I discovered that my brain has a clock speed that's too slow to run the pick and roll versus pick and pop. It's not that I'm not smart enough to know if this, than that. I can't process it fast enough to react. You look at like an NFL receiver or an NFL linebacker or whatever, has to process on every single snap.
Rob Collie (00:51:45):
It's amazing how much information they have the processor. Set aside the physical skill that they have, which I also don't have and never did. On top of that, I don't have the brain at all to do these sorts of things. It's crazy.
Jeff Sagarin (00:52:00):
With the first few years, I was in Bloomington from, let's say, '77 to '81, I needed the money, so I tutored for the athletic department. They tutored math. And I remember once I was given an assignment, it was a defensive end, real nice kid. He was having trouble with the kind of math we would find really easy. But you could tell he had a mental block. These guys had had bad experiences and they just, "I can't do this. I can't do this."
Jeff Sagarin (00:52:25):
I asked this defensive end, "Tell me what happens when the ball snap, what do you have to do?" I said, "In real time, you're being physically pulverized, the other guy's putting a forearm or more right into your face. And your brain has to be checking about five different things going on in the backfield, other linemen." I said, "What you're doing with somebody else trying to hurt you physically is much more intellectually difficult, at least to my mind than this problem in the book in front of you and the book is not punching you in the face."
Jeff Sagarin (00:52:57):
He relaxed and he can do the problems in the room. I'd make sure. I picked not a problem that I had solved. I'd give him another one that I hadn't solved and he could do it. I realized, my God, what these guys they're doing takes actually very quick reacting brainpower and my own personal experience in elementary school, let's say in sixth grade after school, we'd be playing street football, just touch football. When I'd be quarterback, I'd start running towards the line of scrimmage.
Jeff Sagarin (00:53:26):
If the other team came after me, they'd leave a receiver wide open. I said, "This is easy." So I throw for touchdown. Well, in seventh grade, we go to junior high. We have squads in gym class, and on a particular day, I got to be quarterback. Now, instead of guys sort of leisurely counting one Mississippi, two Mississippi, they are pouring in. It's not that you're going to get hurt, but you're going to get tagged and the play would be over. It says touch football, and I'd be frantically looking for receivers to get open. Let's just say it was not a good experience. I realized there's a lot more to be in quarterback than playing in the street. It's so simple.
Jeff Sagarin (00:54:08):
They come after you and they leave the receivers wide open. That's what evidently sets apart. Let's say the Tom Brady's from the guys who don't even make it after one year in the NFL. If you gave them a contest throwing the ball, seeing who could throw it through a tire at 50 yards, maybe the young kid is better than Tom Brady but his brain can't process what's happening on the field fast enough.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:32):
As someone who likes to you know, test things thoroughly, that student of yours who was having trouble on the test, you said the book wasn't hitting him physically. Did you try possibly?
Jeff Sagarin (00:54:45):
I should have shoved it in his face.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:49):
Physically, just [crosstalk 00:54:50].
Rob Collie (00:54:50):
Just throw things at him. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:52):
Throw an eraser, a piece of chalk. Just something.
Jeff Sagarin (00:54:56):
I'll tell you now, I don't want to name him. He's a real nice guy. I'll tell you a funny anecdote about him. I had hurt my knuckle in a pickup basketball game. I had a cast on it and I was talking to my friend. And he had just missed making a pro football team the previous summer and he was on the last cut. He'd made it to the final four guys.
Jeff Sagarin (00:55:18):
He was trying to become a linebacker I think. They told him, "You're just not mean enough." That was in my mind. I thought, "Well, I don't know about that." He said, "Yeah, I had the same kind of fractured knuckle you got." I said, "How'd you get it?" "Pick up [inaudible 00:55:32]. Punching a guy in the face." But he wasn't mean enough for the NFL. And I heard a story from a friend of mine who I witnessed it, this guy was at one point working security at a local holiday inn that would have these dances.
Jeff Sagarin (00:55:47):
There was some guy who was like from the Hells Angels who was causing trouble. He's a big guy, 6'5, 300 whatever. And he actually got into an argument with my friend who was the security guy. Angel guy throws a punch at this guy who's not mean enough for the NFL. With one punch the Jeff Sagarin tutoree knocked the Hell's Angels guy flat unconscious. He was a comatose on the floor. But he wasn't mean enough for the NFL.
Rob Collie (00:56:17):
Tom if I told my plus minus story about my 1992 dream team on this show, I think maybe I have. I don't remember.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:24):
You might have but this seems like a perfect episode for that.
Rob Collie (00:56:27):
I think Jeff and Wayne, if I have told it before, it was probably with Wayne.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:56:31):
I don't remember.
Rob Collie (00:56:32):
Perfect. It'll be new to everyone that matters. Tom remembers. So, in 1992, the Orlando Magic were a recent expansion team in the NBA. Sometime in that summer, the same summer where the 1992 Dream Team Olympic team went and dominated, there was a friend of our family who ran a like a luxury automotive accessories store downtown and he basically hit the jackpot. He'd been there forever. There was like right next to like the magic practice facility.
Rob Collie (00:57:09):
And so all the magic players started frequenting his shop. That was where they tricked out all their cars and added all the... So his business was just booming as a result of magic coming to town. I don't know this guy ever had ever been necessarily terribly athletic at any point in his life. He had this bright idea to assemble a YMCA team that would play in the local YMCA league in Orlando, the city league.
Rob Collie (00:57:35):
He had secured the commitment of multiple magic players to be on our team as well as like Jack Givens, who was the radio commentator for The Magic and had been a longtime NBA star with his loaded team. And then it was like, this guy, we'll call this guy Bill. It's not his real name. So it was Bill and the NBA players and me and my dad, a couple of younger guys that actually I didn't know, but were pretty good but they weren't even like college level players.
Rob Collie (00:58:07):
And so we signed up for the A league, the most competitive league that Orlando had to offer. And then none of the NBA players ever showed up. I said never, but they did show up one time. But we were getting blown out. Some of the people who were playing against us were clearly ex college players. We couldn't even get the ball across half court.
Jeff Sagarin (00:58:33):
Wayne, does this sound familiar to you?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:58:35):
Yes, tell this story.
Jeff Sagarin (00:58:38):
Wayne, when he was a grad student at Yale, and I'm living in the White Irish neighborhood called Dorchester in Boston, I was young and spry. At that time, I would think I could play. Wayne as a grad student at Yale had entered a team with a really intimidating name of administration science in the New Haven City League, which was played I believe at Hill House high school at night. So Wayne said, "Hey Jeff, why don't you take a Greyhound bus down. We're going to play against this team called the New Haven All Stars. It ought to be interesting."
Rob Collie (00:59:14):
Wayne's voice in that story sound a little bit like the guy at USA Today for a moment. It was the same voice, the cigar chomping. Anyway, continue.
Jeff Sagarin (00:59:25):
They edged this out 75-31. I thought I was lined up against the guy... I thought it was Paul Silas who was may be sort of having a bus man's holiday playing for the New Haven all-stars. So a couple weeks later, Paul Silas was my favorite player on the Celtics. He could rebound, that's all I could do. I was pitiful at anything else. But I worked at that and I was pretty strong and I worked at jumping, etc.
Jeff Sagarin (00:59:53):
So a few weeks later, Wayne calls me up and says, "Hey Jeff, we're playing the New Haven All-Stars again. Why don't you come down again and we'll get revenge against them this time?" Let's just say it didn't work out that way. And I remember one time I had Paul Silas completely boxed out. It was perfect textbook and I could jump. If my hands were maybe at rim level and I could see a pair of pants a foot over mine from behind, he didn't tell me and he got the rebound and I'm at rim level.
Jeff Sagarin (01:00:24):
We were edged out by a score so monstrous, I won't repeat it here. I'm not a guard at all. But I ended up with the ball... They full court pressed the whole game.
Rob Collie (01:00:34):
Of course, once they figure out-
Jeff Sagarin (01:00:36):
That we can't play and I'm not even a guard. It was ludicrous. My four teammates left me in terror. They just said, "We're going down court." So I'm all alone, they have four guys on me and my computer like my thought, "Well, they've got four guys on me. That must mean my four teammates are being guarded by one guy down court. This should be easy." I look, I look. They didn't steal the ball out of my hands or nothing. I'm still holding on to it. They're pecking away but they didn't foul me. I give them credit for that. I was like, "Where the hell are my teammates?"
Jeff Sagarin (01:01:08):
They were in terror hiding in single file behind the one guy and I basically... I don't care if you bleeping or not, I said, "Fuck it." And I just threw the ball. Good two overhand pass, long pass. I had my four teammates down there and they had one guy and you can guess who got the ball. After the game I asked them, I said, "You guys seem fairly good. Are you anybody?" The guy said, "Yeah, we're the former Fairfield varsity we were in the NIT about two years ago."
Jeff Sagarin (01:01:39):
I looked it up once. Fairfield did make the NIT, I think in '72. And this took place in like February of '74. It taught me a lesson because I looked up what my computer rating for Fairfield would have been compared that to, let's say, UCLA and NC State and figured at a minimum, we'd be at least a 100-200 point underdog against them in a real game, but it would have been worse because we would never get the ball pass mid-court.
Rob Collie (01:02:10):
Yeah, I mean, those games that I'm talking about in that YMCA League, I mean, the scores were far worse. We were losing like 130-11.
Jeff Sagarin (01:02:19):
Hey, good that's worse than New Haven all-stars beat us but not quite that bad.
Rob Collie (01:02:24):
I remember one time actually managing to get the ball across half court and pulling up for a three-point shot off of the break. And then having the guy that had assembled the team, take me aside at the next time out and tell me that I needed to pass that. I'm just like, "No. You got us into this embarrassment. If I get to the point where like, there's actually a shot we can take like a shot, we could take a shot. I'm not going to dump it off to you."
Thomas LaRock (01:02:57):
Not just a shot, but the shot of gold.
Rob Collie (01:03:00):
The one time we did get those guys to show up, we were still kind of losing because those guys didn't want to get hurt. It didn't make any sense for them to be there. There was no upside for them to be in this game. I'm sure that they just sort of been guilted into showing up. But then this Christian Laettner lookalike on the other team. He was as big as Laettner.
Rob Collie (01:03:25):
This is the kind of teams we were playing against. There was a long rebound and that Laettner lookalike got that long rebound and basically launched from the free throw line and dunked over Terry Catledge, the power forward for the Magic at the time. And at that moment, Terry Catledge scored the next 45 points in the game himself. That was all it was.
Rob Collie (01:03:50):
He'd just be standing there waiting for me to inbound the ball to him, he would take it coast to coast and score. He'd backpedal on defense and he would somehow steal the ball and he'd go down and score again. He just sent a message. And if that guy hadn't dunked over Catledge, we would have never seen what Catledge was capable of. So remember, this is a team that's blowing us out 132-11 on an average basis. And then Catledge, there's more distance between Catledge who wasn't even like an NBA star, he was just like a replacement level player in the NBA. The distance between him and those guys we were playing against was even larger than the distance between these YMCA stars and us it was unreal. A force of nature.
Jeff Sagarin (01:04:35):
I got a Wilt Chamberlain story I've read about like that. I've read that... You've heard of the [inaudible 01:04:40] tournament. This is way before it became, how would I put it? Public and sheek and everything this was back in the late '50s, maybe early '60s. Connie Hawkins was a high school legend who graduated high school at the time in '60.
Jeff Sagarin (01:04:58):
It was on the playground in that '59 maybe the '61 Chamberlain was already Wilt Chamberlain. There was a guy on the other team named Jumpin Jackie Jackson who was a legend on the playgrounds who could really jump. He happened at the time of Chamberlain fadeaway jump shot and blocked it in midair. Chamberlain was so infuriated that the next 20 possessions, he just had the ball thrown into him and he would dunk very viciously and nobody even wanted to try to block it. He was sending the same message Catledge sent on that.
Jeff Sagarin (01:05:35):
I've heard the same analogy. Wilt Chamberlain when he was about 50, he would play in pickup games. I think Magic Johnson told this story. At age 50 Chamberlain would be playing at quality pavilion is where all the guys would hang out, Magic Johnson, a bunch of the Lakers and Chamberlain. Chamberlain at age 50, he was pissed off somebody made a bad call. He said, "You fouled me on that Will or something?" Wilt would get enraged and suddenly start dunking where nobody wanted to even get in his way.
Rob Collie (01:06:07):
Jeff, again, we're not asking for any secret sauce. But I was going to ask you about in a vague sense, sort of like methodologies that you found to be useful.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:16):
So I was just going to say, Rob, I had an idea along what you were just saying about the myths and things like that. I was wondering if there's some type of common statistic that a lot of people just take for granted, but it's something that actually should be just ignored. Along the lines of Jeff and Wayne's experience, is there something out there that people kind of rely on but it's actually basis?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:06:40):
Well, I'll take that. In baseball, batting average is worthless and games won is worthless. But those are pretty well known.
Rob Collie (01:06:51):
What about in the methodology department itself? Things that might be applicable in general outside of sports?
Jeff Sagarin (01:06:58):
Well, I guess this actually... There's a lot of analogies as to real life. A famous example in sports is the Pittsburgh Pirates beating the Yankees in 1960, four games to three. You look up the scores, the Yankees out-scored them 55 runs to 27. Yet Pittsburgh won four of the seven games, the famous Mazeroski home run.
Jeff Sagarin (01:07:20):
Well, in college sports, often it's more like college to pros, nobody cares about ratings because it's decided by wins and losses, which is kind of like what the Pirates did. But I once asked is that there was a restaurant in town where one of the guys who ran it was kind of connected in sports. And a lot of times there'd be some assistant coaches, coaches would meet in the back office and we'd all talk over stuff. I once asked them, and I got a 50/50 distribution on the answers.
Jeff Sagarin (01:07:49):
I created a hypothetical league like a 10 team League, where one team won all nine of its games against the other nine teams in it by one point the game. The other team in this discussion, won eight of its games by 50 points and lost of course by one point to the team that won every game they had played by one point. I said, "Who's the better team?" Half of the guys in the room who were actually professionals, I mean, they were coaches, half of them said the team that was undefeated and the other half said, that was a fluke that that other team lost. The team that was winning by 50 a game against the same opponents the other team played, they're clearly the better team and it's just a fluke that they lost.
Jeff Sagarin (01:08:35):
So when you're rating teams, you run into that problem, sometimes in real life. Some teams, as a cliche phrases, a friend of mine made this phrase up about this one team that was undefeated. It was Nebraska, I remember in 1972, when they were trying to repeat as national champions, where they've been undefeated in '71. They managed to lose two games and tie one. And every game they lost was by like this, really close. And then they had a streak in the middle of the season where they outscored their opponents 201-0. You could look that up.
Jeff Sagarin (01:09:12):
The '72 Nebraska team. And so this friend of mine said, "Nebraska, they lost any game that they had an opportunity to lose." Most games, they had no opportunity to lose it. They were the snack good and they never had experience till they lost. They didn't know what to do when the game was close against somebody that could play with them.
Rob Collie (01:09:32):
Okay, what's the right answer to the hypothetical 10 team league experiment?
Jeff Sagarin (01:09:37):
It's dependent on the parameters you use. If you emphasize winning to the computer, you'll get the team that's undefeated. If you just say scores are all the matter, you'll get the team that's winning by 50 points a game and loses the one game by one.
Rob Collie (01:09:51):
Okay, so you can definitely tilt the model toward one conclusion?
Jeff Sagarin (01:09:55):
Yeah, you try to find out which works empirically the best predicting the most accuracy over a large sample of games. You'll test different parameter values to see which works, but it may not work and obviously in any one particular game better than the other method. And then when you're wrong, people say, "Oh, you're stupid. You should have been doing it this way."
Jeff Sagarin (01:10:16):
And little did they know when you've tested it over a sample of 10,000 games, that the methods there, "stupid", for using is the more accurate method.
Rob Collie (01:10:25):
But which one's the right answer?
Jeff Sagarin (01:10:28):
I lean towards scores by the way.
Rob Collie (01:10:29):
Yeah, I figured. I'm on that side, the team that won by 50 and then lost by one. I'm going to pick that team.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:36):
I think you need more features. I think you need to know like was somebody hurt, where the game is being played.
Jeff Sagarin (01:10:40):
Well, of course you know where the games are played. That's always built in, I know that. But you start saying, "Well, who had the flu? Who had a sprained ankle?" You can at that point, start putting in factors that make whatever team you want be the favorite team.
Rob Collie (01:10:55):
Bring more and more of the human bias into it, yeah. I can see that. Do you still do any work with the NCAA or is that behind you at this point?
Jeff Sagarin (01:11:03):
They can get my stuff online. But as a courtesy, just to keep my streak alive with them, I've been giving them my numbers for free since the spring of '84, technically winter of '84. I started with a real nice guy named Vic Bulbous. He used to be the coach at Duke back in the '60s and then he eventually ended as... With the NCAA, he was head of the tournament committee. In the early mid '80s, I've done that every, say March, commencing in 1984 but that's because he called me up and said Jim van Valkenburg.
Jeff Sagarin (01:11:39):
Remember, I mentioned way at the beginning at the NCAA that I had talked to in 1981. Van Valkenburg told him to call me saying, "Hey, he had Indiana to win in '81." That's kind of all connected.
Rob Collie (01:11:52):
One of the problems that basically all data professionals run into is when they try to get buy-in for their methodology and the value that they can bring to the table. They try to get non-data people to understand and/or believe in it. Are there any lessons learned from working with the NCAA over the years that might be relevant?
Jeff Sagarin (01:12:14):
They wanted to talk to me directly in October of 1988 during the Dodger Oakland A's World Series and then I said, "We want to talk to you regarding our RPI and the difference with your system, etc." So I said, "Okay, we can talk." And they said, "We want to talk to you in person." I said, "Man, look, I'll talk to you for free over the phone. But I don't like to travel. And if you're going to make me travel to Kansas City, I want to get paid. But I'm not asking to be paid. Why can't we just do this on a speakerphone? I'm not interested in making money out of this. I just don't like traveling."
Jeff Sagarin (01:12:52):
So they said basically, in a nice way, "We insist. We want you here in person to meet with the NCAA Tournament committee." So I said, "What's the most you pay anybody? I want to get paid that." So they paid me, I think it was $500. And I said, "And I need another $100 to pay for a friend of mine to drive me up to the airport early like at 5:00 am in Indianapolis, and then pick me up later that night at 11 o'clock at night."
Jeff Sagarin (01:13:18):
So they paid me two separate checks, 500 and 100. So I paid my friend 100 bucks. I think we stopped at a bar on the way home to watch the Dodgers beat Oakland that night. Okay. That's how I remember that. What they told me was they said, "Look, we're the NCAA. RRPI does not use scores, because we can't, in good conscience, tell the teams, 'We're going to use scores,' because then we're sort of looking like we're encouraging teams to run up the score. But we don't want you to change your system to do that. Because we all know as ex coaches and athletic directors that scores tell you who the better team is."
Jeff Sagarin (01:13:58):
They know that. And these are true professionals, former coaches and athletic directors. They're not some philosopher kings, they know that 50 point the game team, it's a fluke that they lost by one. That was their personal opinion. And so they said, "Don't change what you do. We don't want to have to officially acknowledge that though."
Jeff Sagarin (01:14:18):
So ironically, their new system that they talked about in January 20th of 2017, a Friday, they said, "Yeah, we're going to start using scores." But they put a cap on it. I think that's so any victory greater than 10 points the computer collapses to be 10, it produces some inaccuracies, but it's okay and at least it differentiates teams better. I don't know how to duplicate that. And they have some other fancy things in it. But that's the basic underpinning is all victories are by no more than 10. I don't know what they do with the home edge. But that's not that important to me, but they acknowledged you need to use scores.
Rob Collie (01:15:00):
Were you at all involved or did you have a ringside seat at all for the BCS era of college football?
Jeff Sagarin (01:15:07):
I had more than a ring. I was in one of the guys in the ring.
Rob Collie (01:15:10):
They kept talking about the computer rankings going into the BCS. Was that you?
Jeff Sagarin (01:15:14):
Yeah, I was one of the... Actually, I was with them every year they did it. I think it was 16 years. I was with it all the years. The way I'd put it would be it really wasn't good for me to be in it. It would have been worse for me given that they had it, to not be in it. People say, "He must not be good enough to be in it." But all it did was bring you brief from fans.
Jeff Sagarin (01:15:36):
I have a fun story. The very, very, very first year at Tennessee, I didn't have them number one. People in Tennessee were real unhappy with me and I was young and kind of stronger then. There was a friend of mine who was a bouncer at this local bar who was actually a native of Knoxville, but he was here. He's a real big guy, one of those 6'4, 350 pound guys. We had a fun, I call it rivalry. Whenever we see each other, we have some laughs today.
Jeff Sagarin (01:16:04):
We were in fact in a mutual one of these pick'em contests for the tournament this past March. At the time I asked him, I said, "How would I do if I were in a sports bar right now in Knoxville, Tennessee?" And he laughed and said, "You'd need me with you." You get some weirdo fans out there. Very weirdo fans.
Rob Collie (01:16:26):
The NCAA Tournament, it's a lot more, I don't know, almost like continuous of a problem. It's so many teams, the best teams in the country are going to be near the top. If you give someone a two seed when they think they deserved a one, it's not that big of a slight. Compared to you're in the BCS title game or you're not.
Jeff Sagarin (01:16:49):
Correct.
Rob Collie (01:16:49):
To add to that, I think that the football fan base is a bit more vicious than the basketball fan base.
Jeff Sagarin (01:16:57):
Yeah, I'd say you're right.
Rob Collie (01:16:59):
We had Michael Salfino, who's a sports writer for The Athletic and FiveThirtyEight and Wall Street Journal. He was a previous guest. And one of the things he was talking about was how, this is what Tom brought up is that analytics are changing sports too. They're not just predicting and helping people manage the game, but they're just completely changing the way the game is played. Like the NBA is famously now got a whole desert. The mid range jumper is gone from the NBA. Baseball has become all about nothing but home runs and strikeouts.
Jeff Sagarin (01:17:32):
It's sort of like saying the three-point shot is the home run and if you miss it, it's kind of like a strikeout.
Rob Collie (01:17:38):
Yeah, yeah. And so in those two sports in particular, there is a rising, especially baseball, I think. Really, baseball wasn't a sport that could afford to become more boring. It didn't have room for that. But is it making those sports less interesting to watch? I don't think it's making football less interesting to watch, at least not so far. Football, to me is still a peak, entertaining product.
Jeff Sagarin (01:18:05):
In what ways? I don't know the answer, because I'm not involved in any of this stuff. I understand about baseball and basketball, the three-point shot and "home runs", how is it changing football? Maybe teams go for it more on fourth down. But that's not really changing the physical play in baseball. It changes how batters swing, their upper cutting, trying to hit a home run and then basketball, they're taking more three point shots. What are they doing different in football?
Thomas LaRock (01:18:31):
I'll tell you. So here's a great example of running quarterback. I grew up your quarterback, he took five or seven steps back and that was it and he was in the pocket. And these days, you got guys who were just mobile. I think once you have one quarterback or two, have some success and you had some data to show, "Hey, this changes the nature of the game a little bit. Now, teams start to say, "Well, I'm going to imitate that success." My question was more about have you seen or felt that some of the statistics or things that you've uncovered has eventually helped shape the way sports get played?
Jeff Sagarin (01:19:06):
I've never been involved in doing statistics from football. Wayne and I did the game theory thing, trying to say how you should randomly intelligently optimize your play calling mix. But it's not like I analyzed running averages and passing yards per pass attempt.
Jeff Sagarin (01:19:24):
One thing I will say is when people compare they have the quarterback rating that the NFL has and it's just a simple algebra formula. I've forgotten it. But I have it. It's not that complicated. They'll say, "My God, guys like Johnny Unitas are a fraud. He only had a rating of let's say 80. And now the worst passer in the league has a rating of 80. And that makes them the worst guy in the league."
Jeff Sagarin (01:19:49):
And I'll say why don't you compare guys to the league average when they played, when Unitas played league average in the way they do that NFL rating was like in the high 50s or early 60s. So being in 80 meant you were good. Now, league average I believe is in the 90s. Yeah, being an 80 now is below average, but they've changed the rules. Imagine let's say in basketball, let's say the basket, like the physical dimensions of a game define who the better players are going to be. Let's say in basketball, the basket were like oil barrels that came to about waist tie.
Jeff Sagarin (01:20:28):
Well, maybe the best place would be these short, stocky, muscular construction workers who would dominate, play around the oil barrel. Being 7'2 wouldn't really be an advantage. Or what if the basket were like 20 feet high? Who would be the good shooters? Well, when Unitas was quarterback, offensive linemen were not allowed to hold. Defensive linemen were not penalized unless it was amazingly egregious for roughing the quarterback. And defensive backs could bump and run the entire route.
Jeff Sagarin (01:21:02):
Now, offensive lineman can hold. Defensive backs can only touch the receiver in the first five yards. The defensive linemen are severely penalized if they hurt the quarterback in any way. It's not really fair to judge guys like Unitas on today's numerical standards. Unitas would have been delighted to play if nobody was allowed to try to injure them.
Rob Collie (01:21:27):
You have to index to error, right?
Jeff Sagarin (01:21:29):
I'm a Johnny Unitas fan. That's why I kind of get upset. All these numbers today guys throwing for huge amounts of yardage. Let's see how they would do if their linemen weren't allowed to hold and if defensive backs bump and run the entire length of the pass route.
Rob Collie (01:21:44):
I had similar problems with like Titanic being constantly touted as the highest grossing film of all time forever. And I'm going, "What about inflation?" And I went through great lengths to prove that Star Wars was actually still number one.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:22:02):
Gone with the Wind.
Jeff Sagarin (01:22:02):
Exactly, 1939.
Rob Collie (01:22:02):
Especially when you index for total population of the country, Gone with the Wind is a runaway winner. And I wasn't as pleased with that conclusion as I was with the original Star Wars conclusion, for obvious reasons.
Jeff Sagarin (01:22:15):
You were born in... So you were three years old when Star Wars came out?
Rob Collie (01:22:18):
That's right. That's right.
Jeff Sagarin (01:22:20):
And you were -35 when Gone with the Wind came out.
Rob Collie (01:22:24):
That's correct. Yes. Yeah.
Jeff Sagarin (01:22:26):
But Wayne will remember this. The theme music from Gone with the Wind went (singing). That was the theme music for Million Dollar Movie on Channel Nine in New York City.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:22:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:22:38):
So back to the football thing for a moment. The rule changes have made a big difference. But even after the rule changes were made, it took a long time, I think for the style of play to react to the extent that it has today. The idea of having a strong running game in the NFL, the vast majority of its appeal has been lost.
Jeff Sagarin (01:23:04):
I think the reason for that is you can pass easily now because your quarterback is not allowed to be physically attacked and your offensive lineman can hold and you can't be touching the receiver his whole route. If you put those rules back in, teams would want to run the ball again.
Rob Collie (01:23:19):
Even then, it just took a long time for the NFL to come around to that conclusion because the rule changes, especially the way that you're allowed to interact with the receivers, those are now really old. And yet still, like in the '90s and 2000s, we had this obsession. It is very clearly the wrong move to ever pay a running back on his second contract. Take the rookie contract and as soon as they're off the rookie contract, go get another rookie. It's crazy.
Jeff Sagarin (01:23:49):
I had a comment to make on Tom's remark about running quarterbacks. He's correct, but there's a problem for each given running quarterback. Remember Michael Vic? Nobody could stop them. Some linemen eventually got to him. They wrecked his knee, he got a broken leg and when he came back, he was no longer Michael Vick. He suddenly could not elude people.
Jeff Sagarin (01:24:11):
Before he got hurt, I thought they'll never lose a game with this guy. He'll score every time they have the ball. But I guess NFL defensive players don't like a guy to be that good. They start when they get a chance to tackle him, after a while he doesn't stay that good.
Thomas LaRock (01:24:26):
The running quarterbacks of today are quite a bit more solidly constructed than Michael Vic was. I guess Kyler Murray is the exception. Kyler Murray is not a big guy. He's a Mike Vick type runner. He runs a lot. I think he's really good at avoiding the hits.
Jeff Sagarin (01:24:44):
Yeah, the guys that you're talking about, I'm going to guess the bigger running quarterbacks, they're not as elusive as Michael Vick. He's the most elusive NFL quarterback I've ever seen. But you don't stay elusive once you start being tackled a lot. I'm not trying to be funny. He was an amazing guy to watch.
Rob Collie (01:25:03):
The hits really took their toll on him. Jeff, really appreciate you taking the time both of you.
Jeff Sagarin (01:25:09):
I'm going to put in a commercial for Wayne and Wayne can correct a number. I believe Wayne was selected as Teacher of the Year in the business school a minimum of five times. Am I correct, Wayne?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:20):
I won the NBA Teaching Award six times and went over 40 teaching awards.
Jeff Sagarin (01:25:26):
Yeah, he's the best teacher they ever had.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:28):
Well, maybe.
Jeff Sagarin (01:25:30):
That's my vote. If there was a BCS, my ratings would have waned number one.
Rob Collie (01:25:35):
The margin of victory in these votes is important.
Thomas LaRock (01:25:41):
Yeah, it's not just the win. How much-
Jeff Sagarin (01:25:44):
Decisively.
Rob Collie (01:25:46):
He was a runaway first ballot. Hey, guys, thank you so much. I really super, super, super appreciate.
Thomas LaRock (01:25:56):
Thank you.
Rob Collie (01:25:56):
Thanks for being on the show guys.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:57):
Bye.
Jeff Sagarin (01:25:59):
Thank you for calling.
Announcer (01:25:59):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Shelly Avery is a member of Microsoft's Healthcare Solution Acceleration Team, helping Healthcare customers digitally transform their businesses. As you listen to this conversation you'll realize, as we did, that Shelly knows the tech AND the human side of the tech very well!
References in this episode:
FHIR
Tom Scott - There is No Algorithm for Truth Episode Timeline: * 4:30 - The high value of customization and integrations in BI in the current era of Middleware, Microsoft Teams and how good it is at connecting humans, The speed of Innovation at MS (some of which is directly customer influenced) * 32:10 - Microsoft's FHIR (Fast Healthcare Interoperability) is revolutionizing the rather large problem of interoperability in the Healthcare space * 49:30 - Microsoft Viva is born from My Analytics, Rob gets into Headspace, using data for nefarious purposes
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Shelly Avery. We've had a lot of Microsoft employees on the show and Shelley continues that tradition. The reason we have that tradition is because there are so many interesting things going on at Microsoft these days. And Shelley brought some super fascinating topics and perspectives to our conversation. For instance, she has a deep background and history with the Teams product for Microsoft. And so we got into the question of what is it that makes Teams so special? I really, really, really appreciated and enjoyed her answer.
Rob Collie (00:00:31):
And given her current focus on the healthcare industry and on health solutions, we talked a lot about how Microsoft's business applications and Power Platform strategy is actually a perfect fit for what's going on in healthcare today. We did touch on some familiar themes there, such as the new era of middleware, how a 99% solution to a problem is often a 0% solution to a problem. How even 100% of a solution itself is a moving target. And my only slightly partisan opinion that may be Microsoft's competitors in all of these spaces should just save themselves the trouble and tap out now. We talk about the virtual teams that exist on the Teams team at Microsoft. Sorry, I just had to work that into the intro.
Rob Collie (00:01:17):
I learned a new acronym, FHIR, which is the new upcoming regulatory and technological standard for data interoperability in the healthcare space. We talk a little bit about Veeva. Have you heard of Veeva? I hadn't. It's one of those technologies with a tremendous amount of potential to be used in a positive way and maybe a little bit of potential to be misused if we're not careful. And that conversation was also the excuse for our first ever sound effects here on the Raw Data Podcast. We spared no expense. An iPhone was held very close to a microphone. All in all, just a delightful conversation. I smiled the whole time. We also had the ever upbeat and awesome Krissy in the co-pilot's chair for the duration of this conversation. And with that completely unintentional rhyme out of the way, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:04):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Rob Collie (00:02:11):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element. Welcome to the show. Shelly Avery, how are you doing this morning?
Shelly Avery (00:02:35):
Hey guys, doing good today.
Rob Collie (00:02:37):
Well, thanks so much for being here. Another brave soul, first time meeting us. You're willing to have it recorded. That's into the breach. I like it.
Shelly Avery (00:02:45):
It's good to meet you guys. I'm happy to talk to you today.
Rob Collie (00:02:48):
We brought Krissy today.
Krissy Dyess (00:02:49):
How's everybody doing?
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
How are you Krissy? I mean, it's earlier your time.
Krissy Dyess (00:02:53):
It is early. Yeah. So normally we do these in the afternoon, but it's early. I'm enjoying the sunrise this morning.
Rob Collie (00:03:00):
Oh, fantastic.
Krissy Dyess (00:03:00):
Doing good.
Rob Collie (00:03:01):
Yeah. A cup of joe, maybe.
Krissy Dyess (00:03:03):
I don't drink coffee.
Shelly Avery (00:03:04):
I've had two today.
Rob Collie (00:03:05):
Shelly, I actually already noticed that. I had noticed before we started recording that the color of your coffee cup changed. That, yeah, she just hot swaps the coffee.
Shelly Avery (00:03:16):
Travel mug to drop off the kids this morning and then real mug once I got back to the home office.
Rob Collie (00:03:22):
So Shelly, why don't you tell us what you're doing these days. Give us your CV.
Shelly Avery (00:03:25):
I am at Microsoft now. I am in a new role that Microsoft has created. I am on a team that is called the Healthcare Solution Acceleration team. And our job is to really help our healthcare customers digitally transform their businesses, hopefully using Microsoft technology. But I've been here five years. I started as a technical specialist, helping customers migrate from on-premise server base infrastructure to Office 365, Exchange and SharePoint in OneDrive. And then Microsoft Teams came around because it wasn't around. It didn't exist when I started, and I became a Microsoft Teams technical specialist. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I loved it.
Shelly Avery (00:04:12):
Teams has really empowered the world to figure out how to do work different. It created lots of opportunities for people to create new ways of solving their business problems. And it was a lot of fun to be able to partner with our customers and really help them understand how technology can be an advocate for them and just help them do things faster and more efficiently and on their own terms. And so that was super fun, especially working with healthcare. I learned through that about some other features that Microsoft had, not that I didn't know, they didn't exist, but Power Platform, Power BI, Power Automate, Power Apps, and then later Power Virtual Agents.
Shelly Avery (00:05:00):
And using those inside of the UI of Microsoft Teams to even further enhance what Teams does, which is communication and collaboration, but then putting apps, low-code, no-code apps, and BI and data at the fingertips of these individuals to really, really step up their game and how they're solving their business problems. It's just been super fun and I thoroughly enjoy it. And so taking all of that into my new role, specifically working with healthcare and trying to help them accelerate solutions in their organization to solve their business problems. I thoroughly enjoy what I do every day.
Rob Collie (00:05:41):
Do you think that your recent background in Teams was a selection criteria for going into health? It would really seem to me like that strong basis in Teams is really quite an asset for you in the healthcare specific role.
Shelly Avery (00:05:55):
Well, I of course would love to say yes. And I think it is for me, that's how I learned. It's a background that I feel like I'm an asset to my customers, but my new team is comprised of people from all different backgrounds. And so what our new team hopes to be is people who are deep in various different technology areas so that we can lean on each other's expertise when a solution isn't bound by Microsoft Teams. So maybe we need to create a bot in Azure and build it off of a SQL database and put it in Teams. And so we're crossing the entire Microsoft stack. And so, yes, I'm deep in Office 365 and Teams and getting much better into the Power Platform, but as soon as I need to build a bot in Azure, I'm like, "What, how do I do that?"
Shelly Avery (00:06:59):
So I need that other person on my team who is deep in that area. We're here with you guys. I know y'all are deep in Power BI. We have data scientists on our team and experts in Power BI, which I am not that, but I leverage them because when I talk to my customers, they want to create dashboards and reports that they can have actionable insights on. And so I understand the use case or the problem they're trying to solve. And then I work with my data scientists on the team to help. We come together and bring our skills together to help the customer. So it's just a super fun team. We all geek out in our own area.
Rob Collie (00:07:38):
Yeah. I mean, it is really a perfect little microcosm of what Microsoft is trying to do with the Power Platform in general. Isn't it? Years ago when they renamed, they Microsoft renamed the Data Insights Summit to be the Business Applications Summit, it wasn't really clear what was going on. There just seemed like one of those funky Microsoft renames. You know how Microsoft changes the acronyms for all you folks in the field, every 18 months, just for yucks. It seemed like one of those, but no, that wasn't it at all, right? There actually was a really long-term grand plan that was already clear behind the scenes there, that just wasn't really clear on the outside.
Rob Collie (00:08:18):
And all of these technologies coming together, the low-code, no-code or rapid development, whatever you want to call it, right? All of these tools, they enable something to come to life that every single environment, every single customer is different and their needs are different. Their fundamental technological systems that they use, all their mind of business applications, all of those are different and unique. They're unique mix. Plus then you add in the unique challenges that are going on in their particular environment.
Rob Collie (00:08:45):
You want something off the shelf, but at the same time, if it's not incredibly flexible, if it's not incredibly customizable, it's never ever, ever going to meet the needs of that reality. And I think Microsoft has one of the strongest long-term bets I've ever seen Microsoft make. And it's been really interesting to see it come into focus over the years.
Shelly Avery (00:09:06):
I'm glad you see that and a lot of people do, but we have a lot of customers. I keep saying health because that's who I work with, that there are health care pointed solutions that are out there that have a single purpose and they are off the shelf. And they do usually do a great job at what they do, but they only do one thing. And we find that almost every application or SaaS that they subscribe to or purchase, has to be connected to data or systems or things like that. And then they have 50 different apps all connected to 50 different things, and it becomes complex. And you have service contracts and everything has to be managed. And so we are pushing that we have a turnkey solution.
Shelly Avery (00:09:54):
We're actually saying the opposite. We have a solution that gets you 80, 85% of the way there, but then that last bit is fully customizable to make it exactly like you want. And so sometimes that's hard to tell a customer that, "Hey, you're going to pay for something and then you have to build it," or, "You have to pay someone else to help you build it." And they have to be able to see the benefit of that to keep costs down and reduce complexity and app sprawl is something that we see a lot. And so being able to streamline that is something that we definitely try to do and help our customers understand the benefit of.
Rob Collie (00:10:33):
Sometimes 99% rounds to zero. You have a 99% solution to something, but you simply cannot do the last 1%. And a lot of cases, that's just a failure. I think a lot of off the shelf software, even if it got to 99% of what you need, which is a phenomenal number, it's still not doing it. Plus we also got to remember that the 100% target is also not static. Things change. Even if you're 100% today, your needs tomorrow are going to be different. The ability to customize, the ability to create new integrations and new applications, even if they're lightweight within your environment, is an ongoing must.
Rob Collie (00:11:16):
I think approaching this as a platform while at the same time making that platform very humane, it doesn't require me to sit down and write C-Sharp every single time I need something new, that's just amazing. I think if you zoom back on all of this, it's almost obvious once you know what to look for. All of the individual systems that we buy, and this is even true of our business here at P3. We're, "Best of breed," in terms of all the line of business software that we've adopted. Best of breed, AKA, whatever we stumbled into at that particular point in time. All those little silos, those line of business silos are very competent. Maybe not excellent all the time, but they're very competent at what that silo is supposed to do.
Rob Collie (00:11:59):
But an overall business environment, an overall team environment doesn't stop at those silos. It's like the whole thing. It's the whole picture. It's the whole organic total across all of those silos. That's where you live. You don't live in one of them. And so integration across them of various flavors. I think we're in this new second or third era of middleware right now. And Microsoft is just so, so, so well positioned in this game. I didn't see this coming. I just woke up one day and went, "Oh, oh my gosh. Look at what my old buddies are up to." Checkmate. It's been really cool to watch.
Shelly Avery (00:12:40):
Yeah. It's been really awesome to be here and live it. Sometimes when you're in it, you don't see it happening. And then you look back and you say, "Wow, we've come a long way in the last three years or five years."
Rob Collie (00:12:52):
Yeah. Let's talk about Teams a little bit more before we switch back into health.
Shelly Avery (00:12:57):
Yeah, sure.
Rob Collie (00:12:57):
I find the Teams phenomenon to be just fascinating, which is another way of saying that I missed it a little way, right? Back when I worked on the Excel team, every few years whenever office would finish a release, there'd be like this open season of recruiting. People could move around within office, like a passport free zone. You could just go wherever you wanted. I always struggled to get people who had never worked on Excel to come work on Excel. It was scary.
Rob Collie (00:13:24):
They've been working on things like Outlook or Word or something like that. It's easy to be, "An expert user of Outlook." It's easy to be an expert user of Word. In other words, the difference between the 80th percentile user of those apps and the 99th percentile user of those apps, it's hard to even distinguish. You can't even really tell the difference between them and practical usage. That's not true for Excel though, right?
Shelly Avery (00:13:44):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:13:45):
An Excel expert is like a magician compared to an amateur. And so that was really intimidating, I think. That was the fundamental reason why people struggled to take the leap to come to the Excel team. They felt more comfortable where they were, but a pitch I always gave, which were about a 20% success rate, was data fits through a computer really well. A CPU can improve data. It's built for that. Whereas Outlook and Word, even PowerPoint, I've revised my opinion on all of these since then, but this is me in my early 30s. Going, all those other things, those are about ideas, and communication, and collaboration.
Rob Collie (00:14:25):
And that's all human stuff. And human stuff doesn't really fit through a CPU all that well. It doesn't come out the other side, enriched in the same way that data does it. Hubris in hindsight, right? I said, "There's never an end to how the improvement that can happen in Excel." Whereas something like Outlook or Word, might be essentially nearing its end state. Then comes Teams, right? Teams is the kryptonite to that whole pitch. I hear myself back in the early 2000s, Teams is all about human interaction. I guess that's what it does.
Rob Collie (00:15:02):
I guess, to me, it's this alien form, Teams has just exploded. People love it. It's everywhere. I mean, this is an impossible question to answer, but I'm going to ask it anyway, because it's fun to do. What is it? Why are people so excited about Teams? For a while there, it's like SharePoint held a fraction of this excitement. It's in a similar spot, the hub for collaboration in the Microsoft ecosystem. It feels like Teams has said, "Here, let me show you what that really looks like."
Shelly Avery (00:15:36):
Yeah. I'll do my best to try, but this is my opinion. I don't know what anybody else thinks, but I think it takes the best of the consumer world and the best of the enterprise or commercial world and puts it together all in one app. It has things that when you chat with somebody, it's like you're using a text message. So it's no different than, if you're an Apple user, you open your phone and you go to the green text message app or you go to the Teams app and it looks exactly the same. It has gifts and it has reactions, and you can put stickers and memes in there. And so it's super fun.
Shelly Avery (00:16:19):
But then you take that enterprise and you can also share a OneDrive link or create a meeting or send someone an Outlook invite or whatever. So it takes that enterprise and mushes it with consumerism. And so it's like taking Facebook and LinkedIn and Office and SharePoint and smashing it all into one app. And so you can have fun with it. You can build relationships with your colleagues or even people external to your organization, but then you can also build presentations and dashboards and create, and even use the Power Platform from a low-code dev perspective, right inside of Teams.
Shelly Avery (00:17:02):
It spans the spectrum of fun to developing brand new stuff. And so everybody can get something out of it and they can use it the way they want to use it for the purpose that they need to work on, whatever they're doing for the day. And so it can be great for various different people in various different ways.
Rob Collie (00:17:28):
I love that answer.
Krissy Dyess (00:17:29):
I have a different perspective. I came from a background of data and technical and all of that type of thing, but this Teams, really with everything transitioning to remote in a hurry over the last year, I feel like it really helps with a level of organization and communication and assets that you talked about, Shelly, to centralize all that because in a difference of data coming at you from many places, now we have communications, now we have remote teams.
Krissy Dyess (00:18:05):
And I love, like you said, it is fun, it's interactive. Here's where I'm struggling a little bit with Teams. I love it, but what is proper Teams etiquette in terms of like meetings and conversations? For example, I'm having a meeting and I don't want to interrupt somebody, so I'm going to put it in the chat. But then sometimes people feel like, well, the chat is still a form of interruption. I see it as a form of participation. And so I think people are still learning how to embrace these tools.
Shelly Avery (00:18:38):
Yeah. Well, I think that it also comes to culture.
Krissy Dyess (00:18:41):
Sure.
Shelly Avery (00:18:41):
And Microsoft has an amazing culture. We have been on a journey through Satya, our CEO, on really changing the culture of inclusivity and a growth mindset. And it's interesting when we interact with customers who don't have a very friendly and open culture. But I think you use it the way it works for you and for the people that you're working with and your culture. So if you're in a small team setting and it's friendly people, you should feel comfortable to use it the way that it makes you feel comfortable.
Shelly Avery (00:19:23):
But if you're in a quarterly business review with executives, I mean, think about it. If you're going to lunch with your buddies, you're going to act different than if you're going to a formal dinner with executives, right? And so you use the technology in a way that you would use real life. And so if I'm going to lunch with my buddies, I'm going to be cutting up and giving them funny gifts and patting them on the back. And if I'm in a business meeting with executives, I'm going to have my best dress on and my polite manners. So I'm going to act that way in a meeting too.
Krissy Dyess (00:19:51):
I totally agree with you. I've had the opportunity recently to work with the Microsoft team and I agree there's a completely different culture than what we see, even from my background, even from our culture, I mean, we're all friendly and stuff. Every organization does have their own culture and exactly what you pointed out, even within that organization, there are different levels and cadences.
Shelly Avery (00:20:13):
Yeah, it's crazy. So I spent the last three years helping IT organizations deploy Microsoft Teams. And I did that in the midst of COVID, in healthcare. So when you say remote work overnight, literally help telecare organizations enable 35,000 individuals for Teams over a weekend. To the question about culture, it was very difficult for some of the IT organizations to say, "Well, what should we allow our users to do?" There's sensitivity that you can set on gifts in a team. You can say, do we want them to be explicit or PG-13 or PG or G?
Shelly Avery (00:20:58):
And I had one organization that if there was anything to do with a gift that had to do with politics, that was seen offensive, because what if I sent you a Trump gift and you were a Biden person. I mean, how dare you do that? And so that company was very, very sensitive and they would only allow gifts at a G rating. And a G rating were like cartoons and stickers, where other organizations are like, whatever. If you don't like it, don't use it.
Shelly Avery (00:21:29):
So there's definitely different cultures and different organizations across the country. And so luckily, there are the controls in the back end and the administrative section on those kinds of things. And then for data too, do you want data to be shared externally or do you want people to be able to chat externally or not? And who do they want to be able to chat with? So there's lots of governance and data protection controls in the background.
Krissy Dyess (00:21:58):
And being a data person, what is really cool about Teams and all these things that you just described is on the backend, all of that stuff is just data. That's why you can control. That's why you can help your organization with these. And I think that's really cool. I am super excited about Teams. I was excited about Power Pivot in Excel, and I was excited with Power BI Desktop, and what you explained too, how it starts to integrate the Power Apps, the bots, all of that into this changing ecosystem of how we work, the ability to bring that from the top level all the way down to the frontline workers, to impact and drive actions, I am super excited about Teams. I can't wait to see how organizations learn more, how that they can adopt these tools, because I think there's so much that people just don't know because it is so new and it's a different way, just like Power BI was.
Shelly Avery (00:22:57):
I'll give you an example about that. We have this one group inside of Microsoft, it's called the [SLATE 00:23:04] team. And you know how Microsoft is with making acronyms. I have no idea what SLATE actually stands for, but what they do is they work with customers who have a unique idea and they help them build low-code or apps inside a Teams. And they built this one app called the Company Communicator. Basically what it is, is it's like a mass texting app, where I can create a little message and push it out via chat or via a Team to everyone in the organization or to a subset of people.
Shelly Avery (00:23:39):
And it created a cute little adaptive card where you could put a headline and a picture, and then a little message. After that got so popular, Microsoft built it into the product, right? It started from a customer, it went through a program. It was customer purpose built. Then it got so much organic growth through all of our customers loving this idea of pushing notifications. So we turned it into code and now it's in the product. I think that, that is so cool, how Teams is democratizing the ability for customers to influence product and future releases that now everybody in the world gets to take advantage of.
Shelly Avery (00:24:28):
So that's another thing that I just, I love about it as a product, but also we call it the Teams team at Microsoft, is they're innovating so fast and I'm just a few months out of that role and I already feel behind. I just saw a blog with what's new in Teams in August. And I'm like, I need to go and read this to make sure I know everything that's new because they just come out with so much new stuff every month. And it closes the gap, Rob, you mentioned earlier, when a product's only 99%, it's really zero.
Shelly Avery (00:25:03):
I think the bet on Microsoft is, it might be 99% today, but it's probably going to be 100% in a couple of months because we're innovating so fast. And your 99% today, isn't going to be your 99% in six months. And so it's a moving target, not only for the customer, but for Microsoft too. And so we want to catch up with features that are on the backlog, but the backlog just keeps growing and growing. And so the faster we can innovate and build these into the product, we will.
Rob Collie (00:25:33):
I just feel like if you're watching a really high stakes chess match, which I never do, but imagine that you did, to the untrained eye, this is an even game. And all of a sudden, one of the chess masters just resigned, just tips the king over and says, "Yeah, I've lost." I just feel like as a software industry, we should just take a moment and say, "Hey, Salesforce, all your other, your SAP, do y'all just want to call it, you want to just tip your Kings over, save us all a lot of trouble." I don't even work for Microsoft and I'm looking at this going, "Oh, boy." Remember, I'm not paid to say this. I really think Microsoft has really, really, really dialed it in.
Rob Collie (00:26:16):
I'd like to also go back to your answer about why Teams is so special. I think it was a perfect answer. Rewind 10 years, 11 years, I'm struggling to explain to people why this whole DAX and tabular data modeling thing that was only present at that time, only in the Excel environment, and only as an add in, it was, in some ways the most primitive exposure possible of this new technology. I was trying to explain to people why this was so special. And it was particularly difficult to explain it to people who had intimately known it's [4Runner 00:26:49], which was the analysis services multi-dimensional.
Rob Collie (00:26:52):
And really, technologically speaking, there wasn't too much about this new thing that was superior. If you looked that gift horse in the mouth and examined its lines and everything, you'd be like, there's really not much different here or it's clearly better. Now it had one thing that was clearly better, which was the in-memory column oriented compression. And that was pretty sci-fi. That was pretty cool, but it wasn't the tech. It wasn't like one of these was able to make the CPU scream at 500% capacity or something like that. It wasn't that at all. It was that this new tech fit the way humans work so perfectly. It met the humans where they were, whereas the previous one forced the human world to bend to its will. The humans had to come to it and meet it where it was. And this is a very subtle and nuanced point.
Rob Collie (00:27:49):
But in practice, it is everything. In practice, it means that a company like ours, that operates completely differently than the data consulting firms and BI professional services firms of the past, and really honestly, today, I think most firms are still operating that old way. We're a completely different species of a company. And we exist because these tools work a different way for the humans. And over and over and over again, this is why the ROI from Power BI is so insane when you use it the right way, when you really lean into it strikes. Your explanation about Teams, it echoed that for me. It's professional tool that fits the humans really well.
Rob Collie (00:28:36):
And you don't typically talk about stuff like that. If you're a technology professional, those kinds of answers, you're always looking for some sort of more hardcore answer. It's capabilities. Look at the check boxes it's got on the box, right? This other description of it fits the humans really well, it's not a good sales pitch, but in reality, it's everything. It's a difficult thing to do, right?
Rob Collie (00:28:59):
One of its chief strengths is also just, doesn't make a good sound bite or like, oh, okay. So now you have to wait and see it for yourself. You have to experience it. And I think that's what we've seen. Is that the people who've really leaned into Teams, they all have this surprised reaction, or they say, six to 12 months after really getting into it, as they describe how much they like it, there's this undertone of, "Yeah, it's really turned out to be amazing." You can tell that they didn't quite expect it. And now they're a convert.
Shelly Avery (00:29:31):
Well, I think a lot of IT organizations, they push applications out and Teams to the masses is, oh, it's just another application that IT is forcing us to use. And they're resistant to change because the last app IT pushed out wasn't great. And then they finally get in there and they do what you and I are talking about. They chat in it, they text in it, they meet in it, they have fun in it. And then six months later, they're like, "How did I do my job without this?" They enjoy it. It's easy to use, it's very accommodating and friendly to different personalities and different work types. And it's so unique in the way that you and I and Krissy can all use it all day long, every day, and we use it completely differently, and yet we all have the same opinion of it, is it works great for me.
Rob Collie (00:30:30):
That's the whole mark of a successful product. And one that spreads itself, right? It develops impassioned evangelists. Again, just like everyone else, I would not have seen that coming.
Shelly Avery (00:30:41):
You were at Microsoft from an Excel Power Pivot perspective and you now are not, and have started your own business and they're successful in that. I know people that worked at Microsoft and literally quit Microsoft just to be a YouTube star on how awesome Teams is and all the cool stuff you can do with it, and they've made a living out of it because it's a product that does so much and it's never ending in the way that it can be used and how unique it is. It blows me away when I actually saw a gentleman who was at Microsoft as a product manager and I followed him on YouTube, and then one day he said, his YouTube post was, "I am retiring from Microsoft." And he was younger than I am. I'm like, "How are you mean you're retiring?"
Krissy Dyess (00:31:32):
I followed the same story that you did, Shelly. I know exactly who you're talking about. What I really love, what the appeal of it to me is, is it's always these little things that people don't know that make the biggest impact. And when you're in an environment where you're not exposed to people doing those neat tips and tricks, having the ability of finding somebody out onto YouTube sharing that, and then you can bring it into your organization and start to spread it, it's really impactful because a lot of times people think, "Oh, it needs to be this complicated technical solution." And honestly, it's always the little things that people are like, "Wow, I didn't know I could do that."
Shelly Avery (00:32:12):
Agreed.
Rob Collie (00:32:13):
So let's turn the corner. Let's talk about health, Shelly. Where should we start?
Shelly Avery (00:32:16):
Well, when you were talking earlier about how Microsoft Teams is this new thing, I think people had an aha moment and I think there is an aha moment that is about to come in health. And I'd love to talk about that for a minute. I think it plays into your audience well because it's about data.
Rob Collie (00:32:41):
Very important question. Are there people involved?
Shelly Avery (00:32:43):
There are people involved.
Rob Collie (00:32:45):
Oh, okay then. We're good. We're good.
Shelly Avery (00:32:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:32:47):
Okay. All right.
Shelly Avery (00:32:48):
Yeah. There is interoperability of data in health. So think about, from a human perspective, heaven forbid you get in a car accident and you go to an ER and they have to bandage you up. That ER is owned by some health organization and they now have data on you, but it's not the same health organization where you go to see your primary care physician. And so how does your primary care physician know about your ER visit and how do they know what medicines that you were given and whether those had adverse reactions to you or not?
Shelly Avery (00:33:22):
Well, without interoperability of data, that just doesn't happen. And there is an old version of healthcare interoperability called HL7. Again, another acronym, but the new interoperability standard is called FHIR, Fast Healthcare Interoperability. The idea of FHIR is supposed to be universal so that that ER can digitally transfer that information to your PCP, your primary care physician. And so your medical record and your information can stay up-to-date with all the people that are medically treating you or for even you, like if you move to another city and you want to say, "Hey, I need all my information. I'm going to take it to my new doctor."
Shelly Avery (00:34:10):
And so this idea of interoperability, it's not a Microsoft thing. It's a healthcare standard that is happening in the industry. But what Microsoft has done is we have gone full steam ahead on this FHIR interoperability and built a stack of technology solutions based on ingesting data through FHIR. And we have a bunch of healthcare APIs, FHIR API being one of them, to now take all those low-code, Power Platform, Microsoft Teams, bots, and hydrate those apps with all of this data from healthcare to now be able to really unleash this data.
Shelly Avery (00:35:02):
So you need an app to have a rounding solution bedside in a hospital. You now have the ability to suck that data in from Rob, that he's been to the ER and his primary care physician, and now you're in for knee surgery. And so I have all that information that's aggregated from all over, and now it's in this cute little rounding app that we built off of Power Platform, or same thing with Power BI, or a chat bot in Teams. We can chat this health data and say, "Hey, is Rob's labs ready yet?" And the chat bot goes and sucks that data in and says, "Yes, here's Rob's labs. Here's the link to it."
Shelly Avery (00:35:44):
And so just being able to unleash that and build these apps or bots or experiences for the human to be able to interact with that data is really what we are trying to do. And so I'm super excited about it. This is a new team that I'm on and this is really what we're trying to drive. So I think it's going to be game changer for the industry.
Rob Collie (00:36:09):
So this is my first time hearing of this new interoperability standard. First of all, FHIR, it sounds cool. I like it. It definitely sounds like it's useful for sharing healthcare and patient information across organizations. Do you also see it as something that's going to be useful even within an organization, like between the silos, between these different systems within a single entity?
Shelly Avery (00:36:32):
Yes. And it will do that first before it goes across organizations. And-
Rob Collie (00:36:37):
Okay.
Shelly Avery (00:36:38):
This is a challenge internally too, because there's software technology that these electronic medical records, that your medical record, my medical records sit in at each of these organizations. And most large healthcare providers have multiple instances of these electronic medical records. Sometimes they have multiple different types through mergers and acquisitions and growth over time, or this department got an upgrade, but the other department didn't. And even amongst themselves, they can't share information with each other. And so if a call center services 10,000 patients, but they have four different electronic medical records, when Rob calls into that call center, how the heck do I know which one you're in and who you are and all that?
Shelly Avery (00:37:30):
So if we can use this FHIR interoperability to aggregate all of that and have it in a single place, now we've built this great call center app that knows that Rob is calling in and who you are. And I immediately have your information. I could say, "Oh, Rob, are you calling about the meds that you got from your ER visit last week?" It's very personalized. So let's personalize care. Let's have better patient engagement. Let's round with our patients and have the right information where we need it, regardless of where the original data sits.
Rob Collie (00:38:01):
So it's a new standard, FHIR, right?
Shelly Avery (00:38:04):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:38:04):
And so let's pretend I'm a healthcare organization and I have, again, these, "I've got a best of breed set up." I've got a jillion different siloed line of business systems. Some of them are new, some of them are not. These older systems that I have, they're not going to be playing nice with this new FHIR standard. They haven't even heard of it, that software. So-
Shelly Avery (00:38:24):
That's correct.
Rob Collie (00:38:25):
How do I, as an organization, connect those wires when some of my more long-ended two systems aren't going to be supporting the standard natively?
Shelly Avery (00:38:36):
And that's part of our challenge right now. A lot of the customers that we're talking to, they see the future, they like the vision that Microsoft is painting. They want these human interactions like we're discussing, but they'll say to us, "We aren't ready for FHIR," or, "We haven't made that transition yet." Our comment back to them is we can help you get there. And it is a requirement that they get there by a certain date in the future. So why not have a company like Microsoft help them?
Shelly Avery (00:39:11):
Now, it's not necessarily an easy task. There are data mappings that have to happen. And a lot of these electronic medical systems are in the old standard, which we can map from the old standard to the new standard. It takes a little bit of manual work, but you only have to do it once, because once you do it once, it's in the standard and now you've unleashed that data. There's also custom fields though. Some developers-
Rob Collie (00:39:38):
Of course.
Shelly Avery (00:39:38):
Have gone into these electronic medical records and they built some custom field that doesn't map to FHIR. So then you got to have somebody who knows that. And so there is hard work to do it in the beginning. I'm not trying to say that there isn't, but we do have healthcare interoperability partners, and system integrators, and Microsoft to help these organizations get into that standard. And the new marketed term for all of this is the Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare.
Shelly Avery (00:40:10):
And so it's all about ingesting that data and then unleashing that data to create these great, either apps or applets, or bots, or scenarios that empower the people who either work at these systems or even for patients to be able to interact with and have better experiences for themselves. And so, you only have to do the hard work once and then it's in there. And so you're right. It isn't a turnkey, there is work that has to be done, but they're going to have to do it eventually. So we'd love to be able to partner with them and help them get to meet those regulatory compliances that are coming in the near future.
Rob Collie (00:40:52):
Yeah. Another example of where it's good to have a platform, right?
Shelly Avery (00:40:55):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:40:56):
If that missing 1% is interoperability, that's a big 1% that a platform like Microsoft is very, very, very prepared to help you connect those dots. It also, it's really helpful that these older systems that we're talking about, if they already had to, as you pointed out, if they already had to play ball with an older interoperability format, that's end sharp contrast to your average line of business software that has no interest in interoperability at all. T
Rob Collie (00:41:26):
he average line of business system is like, no, no, no, no, no. We are a silo and we like being a silo. And why would we ... Mm-mm (negative), no. We are here to hoard the valuable data that is collected in here. Mm-mm (negative), no. Even though it sounds rightfully like labor intensive, one time investment, compared to the average interoperability game that happens across the world, across all industries, it sounds like there's already a really, really, really strong starting point. That's a big, big, big point in your favor. Plus if it's going to be a regulatory standard in the future, that is unheard either.
Shelly Avery (00:42:00):
Right.
Krissy Dyess (00:42:01):
I'm curious though, as to what changed, because honestly, it is one of the reasons why I'm appointment averse, is because every time you go into a different doctor and it's really common for people to move nowadays. And you're like, oh, I got to fill out all the same forms, over and over again. In my mind, I always thought it's somewhere. Why can't it be everywhere? I guess I thought maybe there was some privacy reason that was the blocker. Has something changed there?
Shelly Avery (00:42:28):
You're absolutely right. And no, there is still what's called the HIPAA regulations. And so the entire Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare is HIPAA compliant. It does meet all of the requirements for that. And so the FHIR standard, FHIR mandate is under that HIPAA compliance. And so that's a U.S. regulation. It's not in the EU or others. They have their alternative to HIPAA around keeping healthcare information protected. And it's important to be able to do that. And so the old HL7 standard of interoperability was highly customizable and the new FHIR standard is less customizable, and that is how it is able to have more liquid interoperability.
Shelly Avery (00:43:27):
I'll give you an example. Sex and gender are two completely different things. And we know that in this day and age, but in the FHIR standard, there is a born sex and it is one or another, and you can't really change it. But in the HL7, you could add seven or eight or nine or 10 different categories for that. So when you have the FHIR standards met, born sex is a one or a zero, basically. Right now they have the other category of gender that there's a bunch of options there. And then they even have another category. And so it's creating the standard that everyone in healthcare has to meet as opposed to going in and making it where I can make 37 customizations because in my hospital, I allow them to have 37 choices.
Shelly Avery (00:44:28):
Religion is another one. Religion is huge. I mean, there's endless amounts of religions. In the FHIR standard, there's a set amount and then in other. And so you have to fall into either the set amount or other, and that allows for that more liquid interoperability, or that is the goal. That's the goal of FHIR. Now, I'm getting a little deeper into more of the regulatory compliance and how the standards work. There's tons more deep technical experts on healthcare compliance than I am. I'm more of a technologist than a healthcare compliance expert, but knowing how it works a little bit helps you understand why the technology is empowering or we hope in the future has the potential to empower the industry to be able to do more with this data.
Rob Collie (00:45:18):
Even that little deep dive there, I mean, that really, for me and for the listeners, you really just certified your bonafides there. If anyone was wondering how deep you were into this stuff. You always got to be careful. You're not the expert on that. There are people who know it much better than you. The fact that you know that much while also being on top about all those other stuff, you're in the right role. Like Holy cow.
Shelly Avery (00:45:41):
For my role, they did require healthcare expertise. And we have another team that partners with us that actually are folks from the industry. So we have MDs, PhDs, ex-CIOs and nurses with their RNs, from industry that work at Microsoft as the healthcare industry team, that partner with us around more of these deep healthcare needs. And when we're talking to chief medical officers or chief nursing officers, who doesn't like their title to be matched.
Shelly Avery (00:46:18):
So when we have a chief medical officer like Dr. Rhew at Microsoft, or a chief nursing officer, or ex-CIOs of healthcare organizations to come in and talk to current CIOs, they feel like we're talking to them from their shoes. And so my team partners with that industry team. Not that they aren't technical and don't understand how the technology works, but we are supposed to understand healthcare enough and how the technology fits for those healthcare scenarios and use cases that they need help with.
Rob Collie (00:46:52):
To use a metaphor, if you're going to build re race cars, it helps to hire some people who drive race cars.
Shelly Avery (00:47:00):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:47:00):
Right. I've seen this evolution on the Excel team over the years too. There's more and more people on the Excel team who came up not originally as software engineers, but as people in finance and things like that. Whereas I was a computer science major that had to learn Excel in order to work on the Excel team. And so it was, if you populate a team with nothing but me, back then anyway, you end up with a team of mechanics who has no idea what it's like to go into turn three cars ride. I'm using a racing metaphor. I don't even watch racing. I find it incredibly dull, but I love a good metaphor though.
Shelly Avery (00:47:40):
Sure. Absolutely. I think Microsoft has done that and is continuing to expand that industry team, even our president of health and life sciences comes from the industry. A lot of our leaders from even a marketing perspective or from a product development perspective, they're starting to hire from the industry.
Rob Collie (00:48:03):
That's wisdom. That's humility. I think 20 years ago, we would've probably seen Microsoft put some up and coming computer science guard in that role. And you still need those people for sure. Someone who grew writing C++ isn't going to know everything that they need to know. It's again, there's this whole notion of collaboration. The thing we keep coming back to. It takes a lifetime to amass the expertise to be truly good at something.
Rob Collie (00:48:29):
And so, guess what, you're never going to find everything that you need in one person. You're going to need people with different histories in order to be successful. And so it's simple. And yet I don't take it for granted, when I see teams being assembled this way, I've learned to respect it, that it is a necessary and good thing. It's always worth praising even if it seems like it's table stakes. A lot of people don't view it as table stakes. Still, they've got some things to learn.
Krissy Dyess (00:48:55):
So Teams is empowering, it's a central hub, it's a window into all these other applications, the Power BI that brings the insights, the bots, the Power Apps, the drives actions. Tell me a little bit about the Veeva. I hear about Veeva, that whole human side. Tell me how you're seeing Veeva start to make its way to help balance, I think.
Rob Collie (00:49:21):
And what is Veeva?
Krissy Dyess (00:49:21):
Yes. Veeva.
Shelly Avery (00:49:23):
Yeah, sure. Microsoft Veeva is what we have marketed the name of our employee experience platform. If you're a Microsoft E, you've probably seen in the past years something in Outlook called MyAnalytics. MyAnalytics was the very early stages of what is now Microsoft Veeva. MyAnalytics was a analytics engine that had some AI in it that would give you insights about your day, or your week, or your month. It would tell you, "Hey, Shelly, you were meeting with Krissy like every week for a few weeks and you haven't talked to her in a while. Do you think it's about time to reach out?" And then it will even give you a button that says, chat with Krissy now, or schedule a meeting with Krissy now.
Krissy Dyess (00:50:18):
And I love that.
Shelly Avery (00:50:19):
Yeah. It would pop open your calendar-
Krissy Dyess (00:50:21):
Because I would forget. You have all your lists and you have all your things. And honestly, when those things would come across, I was like, "Oh, yeah, you're right." And I was like, wait a minute. The technology is getting on top of all this stuff that I can't keep track of. It's amazing.
Shelly Avery (00:50:34):
Yeah. That was the beginning of it. Microsoft also came out with another tool called Workplace Analytics, which was the next step of MyAnalytics, where it would anonymize the data and send it to your manager or to your direct report and it would go up the chain all the way. So if my manager had 10 people on it, he would get a daily or weekly report that said, "Hey, your 10 people, this is what they're doing. They're multitasking in their meetings or they're working after hours. Hey, maybe you should encourage them to close the lid of their laptop at night. Let them have better work-life balance." It provides the manager with insights. Right?
Krissy Dyess (00:51:17):
That's right. Because these are important. This is important to your overall health of your business, your company, your culture.
Shelly Avery (00:51:24):
Exactly. So Microsoft Veeva took MyAnalytics and turned it into what is now called Veeva Insights. And then there is Manager Insights and Workplace Insights. And so insights is really just a rebranding and a movement from MyAnalytics in Outlook. And it's now insight of Microsoft Teams. Because Teams has that developer side of it, there's so much more that you can do with that information in Teams than it is within Outlook. And so it gives you nudges also to set focus time on your calendar or set learning time on your calendar, and it updates your status, your green, yellow, red, to focusing or away or things like that. And so it uses AI to help you know maybe when you're overworking or who you might need to collaborate with. Recently, Microsoft made a investment with a meditation company, Headspace.
Krissy Dyess (00:52:30):
Yes. Yes. See, this speaks to me. I love it.
Shelly Avery (00:52:33):
Yeah. It's built into Microsoft Veeva. What I use it for is there's a feature called your Virtual Commute. We all used to drive in and drive out of the office and you had, and I forgot about it, but you had that me time in the car. We could listen to a podcast or veg out on the radio or something, but it was some me time while you were in the car, going home from work. And we lost that when we all went remote. It's like I literally shut my computer and then I walk in the kitchen and start cooking dinner. It's like, where is that me time? And so I use the Virtual Commute and I don't use it every day. It's about a five to seven minute decompression. It says, are you ready to wrap up your day?
Krissy Dyess (00:53:17):
I need this.
Shelly Avery (00:53:17):
Do you have any last minute emails you need to send? Do you need to create any to-dos? And it integrates with Microsoft to-dos, so you can click on things and say, add to my to-do. And then it walks you through a little meditation. Yeah, Rob's got it on right now.
Krissy Dyess (00:53:38):
This feels amazing. You just took this conversation to a new place and adding in the music. I'm feeling it. This is just taking work to a new level.
Rob Collie (00:53:50):
Imagine a world of Raw Data. Data with the human element.
Krissy Dyess (00:53:58):
No, no. Make it come back.
Shelly Avery (00:54:00):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:54:00):
Oh, no. Can we get that?
Rob Collie (00:54:06):
I couldn't help it.
Krissy Dyess (00:54:08):
No. This is what people need. Honestly, when I heard about this, and I'm surprised when I say Veeva, people are like, "What's Veeva?" And I loved your explanation because it gave so much more detail and history, people need this. Think about like, it gives tap it into how long you've been sitting and giving you that balance. This is amazing. Wow. I'm even more excited about this.
Shelly Avery (00:54:31):
Well, and I think-
Krissy Dyess (00:54:33):
I think I can make it another 50 years in the work environment now, like [inaudible 00:54:37].
Rob Collie (00:54:37):
I said, that was the plutonium battery that you needed.
Shelly Avery (00:54:41):
Well, and it's so cool because just like there's a Teams team, there's a Veeva team and they are just getting started. They're integrating LinkedIn learning into Veeva learning and all these other learning platforms. So you can learn right in the UI of Teams and you don't have to single sign on and then MFA and forget your password to log into all these other learning tools. And it allows you to share it right inside of Team, say, "Hey, team, I just did this great learning. I think it'd be great for you."
Shelly Avery (00:55:11):
And customers can upload their own learning modules to it. There's Veeva topics, which is this Wikipedia where it's self-curated information. And what is great, like we've talked about acronyms at Microsoft, every acronym has a topic page now at Microsoft. So anytime you type an acronym, it hyperlinks it. So I'm chatting you in Teams and I say FHIR. And it's like, what the heck is FHIR? You hyperlink it and it gives you an explanation of what FHIR is.
Krissy Dyess (00:55:43):
That's game changer in itself.
Rob Collie (00:55:46):
So, does it also pick up pop culture, like if I type IKR, I know, right? And someone else doesn't know what that means. Usually I'm on the receiving end of this. Someone used an acronym yesterday in a chat with me that I'm sitting there going like, "Oh, what new hipsters saying is this?" And it turned out, no, no, no, no, no. That's the customer, Rob.
Krissy Dyess (00:56:08):
Here's something really weird too. I love this Veeva thing. I love Teams and all this productivity and pulling all the pieces together. Gosh, back in the day, when I moved from back east to Phoenix out west and I started working at the company I was with, they actually had a meditation person that would come in every so often and they would have us stand up and do exercises. And then even to just like little chair massages and it all-
Rob Collie (00:56:41):
Please continue.
Krissy Dyess (00:56:42):
Right. Oh, this is just as amazing. I don't even know what track you got, what meditation track, but I just need this in my day. And so many other people do.
Rob Collie (00:56:55):
Do you see that? I feel compelled to not even hold the phone steady. I have to move it in a circle, a very gentle circle as I play it into the microphone. I didn't even know I was doing that.
Shelly Avery (00:57:06):
It makes you want to sway.
Rob Collie (00:57:11):
Yeah. In the middle of the meditation music, you heard my reminder for my next meeting go off. Oh, it really spoiled the mood.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:21):
And you haven't reviewed that 50 page slide deck. And then-
Rob Collie (00:57:25):
That's right.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:26):
Here it goes. Reality comes right back in. You're like, "Oh, okay. Veeva, Veeva, help me."
Shelly Avery (00:57:32):
I Mean, not to pitch, I'm not selling Veeva anymore. I'm a user of it, but those are also things it does. It gives you alert in the beginning of the day that says, "Hey, Shelly, here's what your day looks like. You got these six meetings. Here's a PowerPoint that you were working on, that might go with this meeting. Do you need to review it?" The Outlook team has also built in, I don't know if you guys have seen this. In Outlook now, you can create 25 minute meetings, 45 minute meetings or 55 minute meetings that either start five minutes late or in five minutes early to give that bio break meeting buffer between meetings.
Krissy Dyess (00:58:14):
That's right.
Shelly Avery (00:58:14):
Because when you're fully remote, all I do is sit around and I click the join button all day. I need to go refresh my drink, I need to stand up, I need to stretch. And so, again, we talked about culture at Microsoft earlier, and Satya has been on multiple news outlets talking about how we were the customer zero for Veeva and for this workplace balance. And it's so incredibly crazy to me how much people care about people. It's what we need to do as a human race. We just need to care about people more and allowing technology to play a part in that. It's so cool that we have that. Hopefully organizations take advantage of it for their employees. So more people can have ... It's just the little things-
Krissy Dyess (00:59:06):
It is the little things.
Shelly Avery (00:59:06):
You mentioned, Krissy, earlier, it's the little things, like five minute less meetings. It's a sign of respect. Let me use the restroom. Don't be mad at me if I'm not on at the top of the hour. I need two minutes to jump from my last meeting to switch my train of thought to get into the next one. And I think that it's super cool that I get to be a part of a company that's offering that to others. And I hope the rest of the world sees it and gets to take advantage of it.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:35):
This week, just recently, because I am seeing the five minute grace period, the meetings start five after, but I just, this week, because now people are starting to creep in at 10 after. So it's like everybody expects that five minute because exactly like you said, you're on back-to-back meetings, you don't get a break, but now that five minutes, now it's okay if you're 10 minutes after. Then it's going to be 15. Right?
Rob Collie (00:59:59):
Yeah. It's like back when I used to teach classes, I would tell people we're going to take a five minute break and we'll resume in 10. Right?
Shelly Avery (01:00:08):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (01:00:09):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:00:10):
But if I tell you it's a 10 minute break, it becomes a 15 minute break. You can't have that. So just say, "Five minute break, but I'll see you in 10 minutes."
Krissy Dyess (01:00:17):
When I was training, there was no break. So all my students out there-
Rob Collie (01:00:20):
You just powered through?
Krissy Dyess (01:00:22):
Because there was so much cool things that I ... I was like, "No breaks. Let's keep going." And they're looking at me.
Rob Collie (01:00:28):
In the morning, everybody please come in, sit down at a seat that has a book in front of it. And in the bag next to it, is your astronaut diapers for the day.
Krissy Dyess (01:00:38):
Don't drink water or you might have to go.
Rob Collie (01:00:41):
Yeah, yeah. We have capitas.
Krissy Dyess (01:00:43):
I was a different person back then. Now I'm embracing the Veeva and the breaks. I feel sorry for all my students, but that's what I did, because there was so much cool stuff. No breaks.
Rob Collie (01:00:52):
While we're on this topic, just briefly, this Veeva thing, it seems like one of those technologies that it's not the only thing like it, for sure. But it can be used for good, but it could also be used in a very dark way, if we're not careful. When we were talking to Jen [Stirrup 01:01:08] on a recent podcast, even dashboards reports and things can be used as a form of workplace surveillance. I do see all of the glass half full potential here. Are there any concerns about customers saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll use this for the positive, the meditation and the humane," but then they just turn around and roll it out as like the Amazon horror stories of the driver's not allowed to take bathroom breaks. And this is a means of enforcing that.
Shelly Avery (01:01:36):
Yeah. I think there is fear of that. I mean, I know a ton of people they put duct tape over their cameras and they don't want windows hello because they think the world's spying on them. There are just people that have that fear.
Rob Collie (01:01:49):
I don't know any of those.
Shelly Avery (01:01:51):
Yeah. But I think Microsoft is trying to protect customers a little bit in this area, that you are the only one that can see your data. Everything else is anonymous. Now, if you're a team of one and you report to your manager, obviously the manager is going to know it's you or a team of two, there are those things. But as you go up from a manager one to an M two, to a director, to a VP, and then all the way up to HR, unless you're a very, very small company, the data is segregated into demographics, and geographies, and departments, and roles, and skills, and tenure. And they slice and dice that data to learn insights as to how one population is performing or working over another population.
Shelly Avery (01:02:42):
I think it was one engineering group at Microsoft that was really, really being overworked. Not that they weren't all being overworked. I'm sure everybody is overworked in every position at every company everywhere. But there was this one in particular organization at Microsoft, I think they were putting in like 18 hour days. It was ridiculous. And the feedback they got from these individuals was, "We have to work after hours because we are in meetings all day." And they were individual contributor. They were coders. They needed that three to four hours to get that line of code written or tested or whatever.
Shelly Avery (01:03:17):
They made a meeting free Wednesdays. They literally wouldn't allow people to have meetings. Now you could collaborate with people and set your own, but no internal or manager type meetings those days. And the productivity of that group after three or four months, just completely changed. And so using the data, that's what the data is meant to be there for. Now, there are people in the world that are just going to make Ponzi schemes. They're just evil people. Data can be used, I'm sure in malicious ways. I think Microsoft is trying their best to make it so they can't be super micromanagement at least down to the individual level.
Rob Collie (01:04:02):
It's a certainly a very, very challenging frontier for a technology company, right? We're going there as an industry. It's inevitable. It's happening. There's no point in trying to say, "Oh, no, let's put up the firewall here." We're seeing this thing. This goes back to my original, something I said a long time ago in this discussion about how certain things don't go through a computer very well. I think this is one of those examples. We're seeing it with Facebook and YouTube. Technology companies, they're in the position now, these companies, of being the arbiters of truth and there's no algorithm.
Rob Collie (01:04:36):
There's actually a really great YouTube video, or this one guy in the UK talks about, there is no algorithm for truth, but we've created these platforms that are the primary disseminators of information in the world and they're completely and forever ill equipped to be arbiter of truth. Wow, look at the world that we're in. So, I don't think this particular topic is on that scale. It doesn't have that same reach. I don't think as the other things, but I think it's a cousin of those problems in some ways. It's a more solvable problem, I think, than the Facebook and YouTube problem that we're seeing. But this is where the real stuff is. Is like, how do we deploy these things in a way that is a net benefit to humanity? And not just as a net benefit to shareholders.
Shelly Avery (01:05:27):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:05:28):
That's attention, especially I think in the United States. It's a very different dynamic like in Europe, for instance. I can imagine the adoption profile of something like Veeva in Europe will be very different than in the USA.
Shelly Avery (01:05:40):
Well, it will have to meet European standards. European has GDPR around privacy laws. And so there might be different settings or features that can or can't be enabled in a product like Veeva in UK or in Europe to comply with those.
Rob Collie (01:05:58):
A lot of consumer products in the United States, they have to meet California standards.
Shelly Avery (01:06:03):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:06:04):
And then because of that, the whole country is California in terms of its standards, because you're manufacturing product. Software's a little different, it can be tuned differently in different places. Shelly, I have really enjoyed this conversation and thank you so much for making the time. You also get a gif of yourself. Why don't have to be mentioned that.
Krissy Dyess (01:06:19):
A G-I-F not G-I-F-T. Gif.
Rob Collie (01:06:22):
Right. Not a gift, but it is a gift-
Krissy Dyess (01:06:24):
It's a gift or a gif.
Rob Collie (01:06:29):
Or a gif. Yeah.
Shelly Avery (01:06:29):
Yay. Fun.
Rob Collie (01:06:29):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (01:06:29):
And you could frame it.
Rob Collie (01:06:29):
It needs to be a movable frame. We could sell it as an NFT.
Shelly Avery (01:06:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:06:37):
And I also want to say, I really, really, really detected just a tremendous amount of wisdom in you, in this conversation. And that's not something that you necessarily run into all of the time in technology, but I think there's something about the way that you approach problems, the way that you think about them, that I find very valuable and special. And I wanted to make sure that I said that before wrapped up. So, thanks for being here. Yeah. And thanks for bringing your perspective, which I really appreciated it.
Shelly Avery (01:07:04):
Thanks so much guys.
Announcer (01:07:05):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
We welcome Power Platform expertise in the form of Two Alex! Alex Dupler and Alex Powers both work at Microsoft. The organization they work for and their first names aren't the only thing that these two share! They also both have a lot of experience with and passion for the Power Platform. Alex Powers is a member of the Power BI Customer Advisory Team (PBICAT), and Alex Dupler is a Program Manager focused on BI & Data Infrastructure. These guys know data!
Follow Two Alex:
Alex Dupler Twitter
Alex Powers Twitter
Two Alex Youtube Channel
References in this Episode:
Raw Data with Brad and Kai from Agree Media
Episode Timeline:
- 7:00 - The woes of Stack Ranking, Data storage options, more fun with names!
- 22:00 - What draws you to data?, The value (and drawbacks) of Excel, and the path to Power BI
- 36:40 - Two Alex-similarities and differences, Rob tells a story of someone crossing him, and one of Rob's favorites-the art of using BI to drive action
- 59:00 - When BI and IT collide, the 2 Alex's non-traditional BI path, the value of being an expert even if you aren't THE expert
- 1:16:00 - Two Alex LOVE helping people, is there value to documentation?, knowing the Business portion of Business Intelligence
- 1:37:00 - Advertising performance discussion
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guests are Alex Powers and Alex Dupler, collectively known as Two Alex. They're both Microsoft employees in very different roles, but both have their feet rooted firmly in the power platform. You might be familiar with their YouTube show. I interact with them primarily on Twitter and a little bit on Reddit. And this is the first time I've had really any conversation of length with Alex Powers. And it's the first time I've had any conversation at all with Alex Dupler. And no surprise here, really, really cool people. We had a lot of fun, really dynamic and inspiring, interesting conversation that wound through a number of topics, including some show favorites, like non-traditional backgrounds, and closing the action loop, and imposter syndrome. We talk about how years ago Alex Powers wrote a review of my book that called out the intermission in the book and how, what a delight that was at the time to read.
Rob Collie (00:00:57):
And that leads to a conversation about how we're always essentially at our own little intermission in our expertise curve. You're always in the middle somewhere. And if we started doing metrics on this podcast, you'd probably find that this one ranked very highly in opinions expressed per minute. Ooh. What could he mean? Let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:21):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:25):
This is the Raw Data By P3 Adaptive podcast. With your host, Rob Collie, and your cohost Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:49):
Welcome to the show. Alex Powers and Alex Dupler. How are you today, gentlemen?
Alex Dupler (00:01:54):
I'm doing great. It's great to chat with you.
Alex Powers (00:01:56):
Rob, back-to-back meetings. I'm glad that Luke found us some time here. I was so hesitant about this podcast, just cause I love listening to it. I was like, "I don't know, should I do it? Should I do it? Should I do it?"
Rob Collie (00:02:08):
The answer is yes, you should do it.
Alex Powers (00:02:10):
I appreciate Alex D and Rob just pulling us all together. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:13):
We've already backstage a little bit been laughing about this. So let's bring it out to the front stage. The two of you combined, what do we refer to you as? Are you the Two Alex's? Or something different?
Alex Dupler (00:02:23):
So we learned separately from our wives that the correct pluralization is two Alex.
Rob Collie (00:02:30):
See, I just don't buy this. I still think Alex's. I mean, we could get really funky and say, Alexi.
Tom LaRock (00:02:36):
I was going to say, that's what I think. Yeah, Alexa,
Rob Collie (00:02:39):
But I mean, think of it this way. There's fish, and that's plural. But even there, there's still fishes, which refers to different species of fish. Yes. I think. Is that what it is?
Alex Powers (00:02:51):
Yeah, that's right. Fishy. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:02:53):
I don't know. So the two Alex, are you guys seriously going to go by that now? Is that going to be the new thing, or?
Alex Dupler (00:02:58):
Well, the YouTube channel is called Two Alex.
Rob Collie (00:03:01):
How'd the two of you come to know one another? Is it just like, oh, we're both working in data and we're both named Alex. So you're like, you see each other from across the room and your eyes meet across the internet?
Alex Powers (00:03:10):
I would say across the internet, for sure there. Just because he's up in Redmond, I'm kind of located in St. Louis, Missouri. From there it was kind of this, I think natural, just both being active in the community. Alex D you can keep me honest there, I'm sure we were connecting on Twitter a little bit there before, definitely in the subreddits. One of my earliest memories of was, Hey, this thing isn't folding. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's Power Query. I've got to tackle this. I've got to answer this question. Reddit is where I hang out at. I would say from there that's when we really started coming chat more and more, but Alex D I'll let you kind of tell your side of the story.
Alex Dupler (00:03:43):
Yeah. Yeah. My recollection is that the first time we interacted with each other, where it wasn't just some random poster on Reddit, was side conversations on Microsoft teams within Microsoft. There's some internal discussions where salespeople can get their question answered and sometimes the questions are interesting. And so, yeah we had some side conversations. Plus back then, when Alex wasn't on the product team, he didn't always have full visibility into the roadmap. And so we would chat on the side about what we would do with the roadmap. Not that we would do a better job, just a different job.
Rob Collie (00:04:19):
Yeah, I get you. Yeah, I understand. I understand. What are the two of your roles at Microsoft today?
Alex Dupler (00:04:25):
I work for Microsoft advertising. We're the organization that sells the ads that go on Bing, as well as some partner websites like Yahoo search and AOL search and stuff like that. And I work in the business function of the sales org. So I do BI for a sales team. And it just happens to be at Microsoft, and that influences the technologies that we use. IPM are like data warehouse and big cube stuff.
Rob Collie (00:04:50):
Cool. We're going to have to circle back to that for sure. And Alex P what are you up to these days?
Alex Powers (00:04:56):
Yep. So senior program manager on the Power BI customer advisory team, so PBI CAT for maybe those out in the community. I'm called as kind of that last bastion of hope sometimes, where I'm not very close to the solution, not close to the architecture, just come in and fix it. Where Alex D, he owns the solution, he owns the finished product. That's a line of visibility that I completely lose in my day to day. But you get variety, you get to do different things. Some days it's maybe a DAX challenge, next day I'm writing C#. The next day, I'm writing kind of new report, kind of clicky, clicky, draggy droppy experiences. So a vast rich tapestry of Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:05:32):
So you're on the CAT team with a number of people that have already been on the show, right? Adam Saxton, Casper, Chris Webb. You're part of that crew?
Alex Powers (00:05:41):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:05:41):
I hear that that crew continues to expand, it's like this great gravitational attractor. It's like just hoovering all of these people. Let's just have it on the record. Does the Power BI CAT team have ambitions of world takeover?
Alex Powers (00:05:53):
Every day. And I think what you're seeing right now is a lot of formality. Community contributors, experts, decades of experience. They're now turning into bosses, they're now turning into managers. So they're getting further away from the technology and kind of now being people managers. I'm enjoying our livestream here because Rob is laughing. He's like, oh, I know that exact feeling.
Rob Collie (00:06:14):
I do. I do, right. I got a request today from some media outlet to interview me for Power BI tips. And I'm like, gosh folks, I'm probably not that person. You want to talk about strategy, okay, that's different. But I have gotten further and further. I still build some Power BI stuff for sure, for my own purposes. But I don't have that day to day, like, this is my life. That's not how my day goes anymore. I'm back to the management game after years of being out of it. Yeah. Growing a company tends to keep you out of the actual hands-dirty data trenches that started the whole thing.
Alex Dupler (00:06:52):
Well, if you ever start stack ranking, that's when it's going to be time to sell it.
Rob Collie (00:06:56):
True story, stack ranking was the reason why I actually stopped being a manager at Microsoft. At one point, I just said, I'm done applying the system for you. I was sick of it. And I understand it's gone now. I found out the hard way that stepping back from a management position didn't just relieve me of that stack ranking thing that I found immoral and uncool. It also took me out of a lot of the important conversations. I just didn't have nearly the input or influence that I had before. And that was hard. If I was still at Microsoft today, my career at Microsoft would still have suffered like a multi-year setback because of this era where I just said, I'm done. I know that at this point, the whole stack rank thing has been gone for a long time, but it was still a number of years later after I left that it still persisted. No, we're never going to do that. We're never going to play lifeboat with human beings. I mean, it really sucked, right? Basically, if you built a really good team, either by recruiting or by development or both, you were punished for it.
Alex Dupler (00:08:04):
Yeah. Apply this to Alex's team. You want to stack rank Chris Webb and Casper and Adam?
Tom LaRock (00:08:09):
I will. I'll do it.
Rob Collie (00:08:11):
Which one of them gets told that they had a terrible year? Right?
Tom LaRock (00:08:16):
I'd be happy to do it.
Rob Collie (00:08:20):
Hey, listen. As long as we put that kind of phenomenal power in the hands of a benevolent tyrant, like Tom, it's perfectly safe. What could go wrong?
Alex Dupler (00:08:29):
That is what they said about solar winds.
Tom LaRock (00:08:34):
My first criteria, having known them for many years, is Jaeger consumption. So we'll just start with that and work our way down the stack.
Rob Collie (00:08:44):
Which way are we going to sort that list though? We sort it largest to smallest, or smallest to largest? I mean, I could see that list being sorted either way.
Tom LaRock (00:08:50):
We'll try it both ways and see how it shakes out.
Rob Collie (00:08:53):
Yeah. I mean, it could be like a honeypot, right? Put some Jaeger out there, see who goes for it? You're getting the 3.0. We won't be doing any of that, thankfully. Now, Alex P, you were previously in a different role, right?
Alex Powers (00:09:10):
Yes. So, here at Microsoft less than two years, came in through the premier field engineer side to support, really had a blast there kind of proactive engagements training, probably train like 4,000 Tableau users on the Power BI. So just like the grind of doing it day in, day out, talking about the product, I just absolutely loved that. Transitioned to kind of field sales roles. There it's competitor competes, a lot of disinformation where they're saying, well, Power BI can never do this. What do you mean it can't do that? Here's an article. Here's me, kind of the whizzbang demo. That's probably where I got my hyperlink chops for those that kind of know me on the community.
Alex Powers (00:09:44):
This is the good and bad of the pandemic is like, Hey, we're making some career advancements, we're working long hours, whatever else it may be. A lot of my goal whiteboard over here was, Hey, I want to be on the Power BI CAT team. Had that visibility, just kind of did those grinding over the fall and winter months when we're all stuck inside. But I'm sorry, Thomas. I don't know how good I would be at the Jaeger thing, just because I don't have that peer connection. I haven't met my coworkers. So that's tough for a lot of people that I think are just making career jumps during the pandemic right now.
Rob Collie (00:10:16):
Yeah. I mean, it's weird. I live in a completely altered reality where we've been a hundred percent remote, I've been a hundred percent remote for 11 years. Probably more closer to 12, actually. Our company was a hundred percent remote from the beginning, basically out of necessity. To me, it's shocking how many people who've been at this company for a long time have never met each other face to face. We did a gathering, a team gathering in 2019. We didn't do one in 2020. I don't remember why we didn't do that. We haven't done one this year, either. We're hoping to maybe do one in 2022. We've hired so many people in the last year that there's like half the company that I haven't ever been in person with.
Alex Powers (00:11:02):
It's tough.
Rob Collie (00:11:03):
It's different, isn't it?
Alex Powers (00:11:04):
Yeah. I think it was like the good meme the other day where it's like, Hey, here's your company culture, it's just like an empty cubicle. And it's like, well, people don't even have that anymore. It's just, here's your new job, here's your new email. Log in, welcome to the company. Great friend of mine, Mark Beedle, I know kind of joined T3 adaptive. I love that he's like, this is where I want to be. I think of the P3 of the past, where you take the group, I think, up to Seattle or some of the different areas. And then it was like, oh wow, they're all getting together and having fun. You know, I tried applying for the job, but unfortunately your Excel file was corrupt and I couldn't pass the test.
Rob Collie (00:11:36):
Oh, I see. I see how this [crosstalk 00:11:38].
Alex Powers (00:11:38):
Yeah, what happened with that, Rob?
Rob Collie (00:11:39):
I don't know, man.
Alex Powers (00:11:40):
That's really what I wanted to corner you on today.
Rob Collie (00:11:43):
That might've been part of the test, Alex.
Alex Powers (00:11:45):
I literally thought it was, that responded that way. I was like, I don't know if they're testing me with a corrupted file.
Alex Dupler (00:11:50):
Yeah. You need to have mastered the Open XML format of the Excel file, and be able to track down the corruption in the Power Query.
Rob Collie (00:12:00):
I saw a joke or a meme on some social media a couple of years ago about cast iron, the hipsters with their cast iron and how you have to take care of it and everything like that. And then after you're done with that, you have to dry it in the sun for 24 hours. And someone goes, 24 hours? And they go, yeah, if you're not willing to go to the Arctic, you don't deserve cast iron. So it's like that kind of test. Yeah.
Alex Dupler (00:12:23):
We beat the crap out of our cast iron, it's just fine.
Rob Collie (00:12:26):
Okay. And now Alex Dupler. You're working in BI in the advertising wing, within Bing but also the affiliated networks like Yahoo and things like that. And so you mentioned that you're in charge of the data warehouse and you're in charge of, you said big cube.
Alex Dupler (00:12:42):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:12:43):
For a year I worked on Bing, and maybe this is a completely different dataset than what you actually end up caring about, but the state of the world back then was there was this giant distributed commodity hardware database system, data storage system called Cosmos.
Alex Dupler (00:12:58):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:12:58):
One of the world's foremost write-only data stores. It was amazing at storing data. You could never get anything useful out of it. There was only one person in the entire organization, named Jamie Buckley, who was capable of actually running queries against this thing. And so if you wanted any information whatsoever about what searches were being run and things like that, yeah sure, you could try to write a query against this thing. And what would happen is you'd get syntax error after syntax error after syntax error, and then eventually you kick off a query and it wouldn't give you any errors. And you're like sweet. And it would run and run and run and you go away and you'd come back like a day and a half later and then you'd get a runtime error.
Alex Dupler (00:13:38):
Yeah. And when it works, you get a CSV. And so we still have that. I think when I was getting trained on it, which they said it had something like 5% of the world's data in it. Cause it's not just Bing, it's X-Box and a whole bunch of stuff. It's this really cool exabyte scale thing. But nobody knows how to use it, partially because it uses scope scripts, which the only commercial product they've ever been used in is the ATLS gen one analytics feature, which was not a successful product and is being deprecated. And so you can't hire people that know how to use it, there's just like a bunch of vendors that have learned it. And I can't write it either. Also, I don't know if this was your experience, but the engineers are allergic to writing documentation. It's got these petabyte sized tables with 400 columns and there'll be a data dictionary and it doesn't have any descriptions of any of the columns.
Rob Collie (00:14:33):
This does match my experience, yes.
Alex Dupler (00:14:35):
So we use that some, we also have other partners. I mean, it's a huge organization. We just missed getting touted in the quarterly earnings as having crossed $10 billion for the last fiscal year. I think the public number is like 9.95 or 9.5 billion. Yeah so it's a real business, even though the market share is pretty small. It turns out advertising is just a really, really good business. So we take a bunch of data out of there, and then also from partners that take data in there, and put it all in Databricks and make it available to folks that way. And we love Databricks because our analysts, they can come with whatever skills they have, and they can be successful on day one. Because they don't have to learn SCOPE or KQL or whatever.
Alex Dupler (00:15:22):
They can write Python, they can write R, they can write SQL, there's a cube so they can do Power BI, they can do Excel. They can do whatever they want, all in the same data. Now, if they want to do things that are super fancy, they may have a hard time using the cube. So they got to write something.
Rob Collie (00:15:41):
Yeah.
Alex Dupler (00:15:42):
But if you're a PM owning a project, you can drag and drop in that cube all day long and have a good time. And then the other thing that we like about the setup we have is, with the data in Data Lake, our partners that have their own generous Azure budgets, they're not running queries against our server. Whereas if we put it in Synapse or SQL, when they want to query our data, we're paying for this compute. But here they just mount it onto their own compute system, and they pay for it. And that's great. We like when other people pay to use our data.
Rob Collie (00:16:15):
So it's funny, I actually expected that the answer to the question was going to be, oh no, no, we fixed all that. That original system is completely straightened out, it's got a much more human friendly interface. But it turns out that you just have other systems that are human friendly. And those things have to... on the order of one-time investments to figure out how to populate those things from the great Oracle that is Cosmos.
Alex Dupler (00:16:41):
Yeah that's largely true. I mean, in Cosmos, they've implemented the ATLS APIs. So you can mount data in Cosmos directly to a Spark engine and do stuff that way, if you want. Yeah. Basically that's how they've done things. You will not be surprised to learn that Microsoft likes to reuse names. Maybe you've seen this phenomenon before in the word power, but yeah. Cosmos, the internal exabyte scale data platform is not the same as Cosmos DB, the Azure product, which is for, I couldn't even describe it. It's for, like, everything.
Rob Collie (00:17:19):
Yeah. I mean, there's only so many cool nouns. And furthermore, the set of cool nouns in the world is further refined by the ones that computer scientists gravitate to. So you end up with a really small population of words. And the chances... It's like the pigeonhole principle from math, right? You need 450 names, you only have 300 words. So you're screwed. And so you end up with things like the word dashboard being repurposed to mean something kind of niche in Power BI. That's one that I wish we could get a do-over on. And you know, I'm a sinner. I named some things poorly in my day. I'll give you an example. When PowerPivot V1, and actually several versions of PowerPivot, at least in 2010, there were those two drop zones, extra drop zones in the pivot table field list, for slicers.
Rob Collie (00:18:11):
Cause Amir insisted that we make slicer layout really easy as opposed to tedious. So we had these extra drop zones, and one drop zone put the slicers down the left-hand side of the pivot table and one put them across the top of the pivot table. What did I name those two zones? Horizontal and vertical slicers. For years after that, when I taught that product to classes, they go, oh, what does a horizontal slicer do that's different than a vertical slicer? And I just sit there with my head in my hands like, it should have been left and top, Rob. Why did you... Previous Rob, why were you so nerdy and stupid at the same time? Left and top.
Alex Dupler (00:18:48):
Well you see, in an indimensional cube, there are some things that are horizontal and some things that are vertical. Once you understand what the tubal is, it'll all make sense.
Rob Collie (00:18:59):
Yes. So let's go back to basics and... Yeah, no. It's just left and top. Yep. These are what you call own goals. Can't make these things up. It's even funnier, by that point in my career when I made that mistake, I was already kind of like this rabid high priest of naming. Like, we should be better. And here I was in the course of delivering those sermons, just committing tremendous sins out the back of the church. It's just like.
Alex Dupler (00:19:31):
Yeah, it turns out we should be better in, oh crap, I got an hour before this presentation, what am I going to call this thing? Those are two overlapping states of being.
Rob Collie (00:19:41):
You know, people's hearts are in the right place. So I still think that the two of you probably might've gravitated toward each other just a little bit, maybe like 1% more, because of the shared first name. Can I be allowed like an extra 1% gravity on this?
Alex Powers (00:19:54):
99. I mean, a lot of Alex's within Microsoft that are doing Power BI, we've all kind of banded together.
Rob Collie (00:19:59):
There's like an Alex crew?
Alex Powers (00:20:01):
Hell yeah. Big time. There's multiple Two Alex's, too.
Rob Collie (00:20:04):
As we've established, once you get above like three or four Alex, it's suddenly Alex's. That's when it becomes plural.
Alex Dupler (00:20:10):
There are at least two Alex's working at Microsoft in the Power BI ecosystem that are smarter than either of us.
Rob Collie (00:20:17):
Well I mean, going back to something we were talking about earlier, every single person, every single consultant at P3 is a hell of a lot better at Power BI than I ever was. I can't even argue that it's like, oh, I'm off my peak. It's not that at all. They were always going to be much, much better. It's very humbling. Like in the real sense of the word, when you sort of get put in your place.
Alex Powers (00:20:40):
Is this like a time thing, Rob? Cause I feel it too. It's like the early days, Power Pivot and Power Query were something like, I'm digging, I'm learning all of these things. And then like everything else is kind of passing me by and it's like, yeah I'll catch up to that at some point. And I see the wild stuff that people are doing nowadays, like, I don't know what nights and weekends they're spending learning this product, but I'm working twice as hard and I'm still not catching up.
Alex Dupler (00:21:00):
Yeah. I was watching the other demo the other day. And he was talking about how you should have your report and your data model in two separate PBIX's. This was Mike Carlo. It was a great demo. But then he was like, and to make this really easy, what we're going to do is we're going to edit the PBIX. And I was like, hold on a second. You can't do that. That's not allowed.
Rob Collie (00:21:22):
[crosstalk 00:21:22] Like actually hacking the file? Like he got into the file structure?
Alex Dupler (00:21:25):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:26):
I do love me some file hacking. For me, I think it's not necessarily a question of time. It's actually that the universe has returned to its default state with respect to me. Which is, the whole time I worked at Microsoft, in all the years I was on the engineering teams, I worked with plenty of people who were super technical, but also enthusiastically technical. When VB.Net came out, and ASP.NET, I had some colleagues that just dove into that. They loved it, it was the most amazing thing. And I just could never... I was still at that point going like, okay, well I learned how to write my VBA, and I'm sticking with it. That's where the frontier of my coding, actual procedural coding, is still VBA six.
Rob Collie (00:22:09):
For some reason, DAX and data modeling, as technical tools go, DAX and data modeling really, really spoke to me. Like I freaking loved it and still do, still do to this day. And Excel formulas are kind of the same thing, right? This is the handful of exceptional technologies that really seem to appeal to my nervous system, and none of the others do. And by the way, M is another example that does not appeal to me at all.
Alex Powers (00:22:38):
I am the opposite. I love M.
Rob Collie (00:22:39):
Really? You love M?
Alex Powers (00:22:40):
I love, love, love. Hell yeah.
Rob Collie (00:22:42):
You're not my species then, you're something completely different.
Alex Dupler (00:22:47):
So I think one of the big things that drew me to data modeling, so there's a lot of constraints. And with programming, it's like, there's such an open world. Like the only programming I could ever really get my head around was VBA. That's where I started. You didn't have to have a big, complicated object model. There was just Excel. That was your object model. And it made everything so much easier. And you're like, okay, well, what I'm trying to do is move these cells to those cells. And with data modeling, especially in Power BI, it's like, well, I need one column for these relationships. And I need these relationships to flow in one direction. The constraints make it a much more manageable problem, but also opens up room for more creativity.
Rob Collie (00:23:30):
I agree. And also VBA comes with a macro recorder, the world's greatest set of training wheels. It's like, if I want to build an app from scratch, I can't like act out like pantomime what the app will do, and have something spit out code for it.
Alex Dupler (00:23:48):
Draw some stick fingers in Figma and just drag them around, and get some code from that.
Rob Collie (00:23:51):
Yeah. It's like, mock up the UI in Balsamiq or something, or Vizio, and then start mashing on the screen with your finger and say, okay. And then speaking out loud, what should happen at that... there's no macro recording for actual software developers.
Alex Dupler (00:24:04):
I think we got to tell Charles that, that's what he's got to do with his AI driven power apps development.
Rob Collie (00:24:09):
Yeah. It's we need to turn this into a LARPing thing, right? You just act out the application in the real world with these cameras... Holo lens. There it is. We've solved the world's problems. Take that for low code development.
Alex Powers (00:24:26):
Well, I like how Power Automate's now watching your points and clicks, and generating flows for you.
Rob Collie (00:24:32):
See, I didn't know that it did that.
Alex Powers (00:24:33):
Oh yeah. You're training the machine. You don't even have to write the code anymore. It's like, oh, automation is here. It's really here now.
Rob Collie (00:24:41):
It's always a feel good moment to meet a fellow VBA 6-er. The world used to be lousy with us. We were just everywhere. It's kind of a dying art. Office has got this new JavaScript API, Office Scripts. That's incredible. Again, in theory. I haven't touched it, because it's not reaching out and grabbing me by the eyeballs. I'm tempted though. It's sort of like, oh, a new VBA six and they have a macro recorder and I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe. This might be the way I learn JavaScript someday, is Office Scripts.
Alex Dupler (00:25:09):
Yeah, that sounds like how I'd learn it, except Excel is dead to me. I mean, I use Excel for note taking and PM stuff, but data work, I don't use it. Because first of all, Power Query is the way to go. And in Excel, when you have Power Query over, you can't save the Excel file.
Rob Collie (00:25:28):
Really?
Alex Dupler (00:25:29):
Yeah, Power Query takes a lock, like a lot of the old school windows. And you can't get back to the main-
Rob Collie (00:25:34):
Modal window.
Alex Dupler (00:25:35):
Yeah. So you can't save, you can't refer back to the data. You can't open stuff. And it's not like Excel ever crashes when you're working with lots of data. So saving, it's not that important. And if you want to say, first you have to evaluate your queries or set them to disable load. But if you've already loaded some, if you do something to disable load, it destroys the cells. I just said, I'll do it all in Power BI. No more Excel. Not because there's anything wrong with Excel. It's just that that user experience was just so unacceptable to me. I lost so many hours of work.
Tom LaRock (00:26:10):
Wait, what do you mean, not that there's something wrong... Clearly there's something wrong with Excel.
Alex Dupler (00:26:14):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:15):
Alex, you're cut from a cloth that I understand very well. Your sarcastic cynicism is, ooh, it speaks to me. Yeah, we've come to the right place. Even I, team Excel guy, I am really on team Excel. I haven't written any DAX in the Excel environment in several years. It's all Power BI, all the time now.
Alex Dupler (00:26:38):
The other big thing is why would you want to write DAX in an environment that you can't schedule to refresh? Unless you don't have pro licenses, like...
Alex Powers (00:26:47):
Hold on, let me challenge you now. Here we go, this is a little taste of Two Alex. So I love Ken Puls, where he's saying, Hey, I don't want the heavy weight of Power BI. If I can do as much as possible within Excel, be it Power Query or even Power Pivot. I would agree that.
Alex Powers (00:27:03):
Be it kind of power query or even power pivot. I would agree that the development experience is severely lacking. That's not to say that the power BI side is the best in the world, obviously Dax studio, et cetera. But I would much rather take a lightweight application over a heavy one every day and then just import that data model into power BI when I'm ready.
Rob Collie (00:27:19):
To me, the primary value of these technologies in Excel is as an on-ramp to the power BI universe for the authors. Tomorrow's power BI authors are today living in Excel. And the reason, I've said this multiple times on this podcast of multiple different people at Microsoft, but the reason why I'm, I don't want to use like the passive aggressive version of the word disappointed. Let's use the completely neutral version of the word disappointed. The reason why I'm disappointed that there isn't more investment there is because that is the gateway drug, and as a universe, as a community, like we really need to care about bringing those new people on. And that's where they're going to come to. To tell those same people, "No, put Excel down and start learning this in a completely new environment," their immune systems reject that because they've been sold a million times on the idea that something's going to replace Excel. They know better by now.
Rob Collie (00:28:23):
But no one in that category, like the V lookup and pivot route, none of them resist the idea of there being crazy, powerful new versions and features of the things that they're already doing. You get them 48 hours into that new world, and they're more than happy to switch to the power BI environment. They're excited about it. Those same people who would have rejected it 48 hours before. You got to take them on that path and this thing not getting the love that I think it deserves, I understand it's from the perspective of our real production environment is the power BI environment. I get that. But the on-ramp, they are doing some things about that, even things that I didn't know, because they're targeted at people who don't know about this stuff and I already do. Brian, when he was on the podcast, was talking about how they're using machine learning, advanced clippy generation seven, to detect the people who should be interested in this stuff and sort of pointing them to power BI. And there actually was really good uptake of that. That feature didn't fire for me because I don't use V Lookup or regular pivot tables anymore.
Alex Dupler (00:29:23):
That's almost exactly the journey that I went on. Like many of your guests, I did not go to school for power BI. I actually, I went to school for chemistry and I worked as a chemist for a couple of years. I was doing lab work and I was very bad at lab work. I mean, I understood the chemistry, but I would break glassware that was expensive and stuff like that. Which when you make $15 an hour, breaking expensive glassware is a good way to get in trouble. So I was like "Okay, well I grew up in a very computer centric family. Maybe I can do some of this Excel stuff." And so I was doing visual basic, and we were doing some dashboards, like operational reporting. And I had Excel in this company. I loved the people there, but it was not a successful business. We had maybe a hundred thousand dollars in revenue per employee with high CapEx, because we had these big, expensive instruments that we had to buy and chemicals and all sorts of stuff, lots of HVAC. So there was not enough money to pay people to live in Seattle, so every office license was a battle.
Alex Powers (00:30:31):
Wow.
Alex Dupler (00:30:31):
I was looking at, okay, what can I do with Excel 2007, because we had some of that I think we had enough licenses, but it didn't really check. So we didn't really pay too much attention. But then I was like wanting to use power query because I had sort of discovered it was easier, but I couldn't. So I was like, "Okay, how do I get this macro to run as a service so that I can refresh these dashboards on these dowels that we bought second hand?"
Rob Collie (00:31:01):
You know, if it weren't for the a hundred thousand dollars of revenue per employee, at a certain point, that story sounded like season two of Breaking Bad. The HVAC, the cap ex, oh you mean a hundred thousand dollars per employee per week? Okay.
Alex Dupler (00:31:18):
No, no, no, per year.
Rob Collie (00:31:19):
Then it's meth.
Alex Dupler (00:31:20):
Yeah, no. So this is the environmental testing industry. And the way it works is your tests have to be defensible to the EPA. So the EPA puts up a spec and says the test needs to be done this way. And when it's done, it has these parameters in terms of statistical reusability. And that means that one lab's product is a commodity compared to the other lab's product. And so you can't get outside profits. All you can do is compete on service and price. And if you take a high CapEx business and bolted to professional services, you're not going to get good margins.
Rob Collie (00:31:59):
Unintended consequences of everything, right?
Alex Dupler (00:32:01):
Yeah. I mean, Rob, can you imagine your business, if you are charging professional services business model, but you bolted on a whole, huge amount of consumable costs to every delivery?
Rob Collie (00:32:14):
Yeah. It sounds like we can safely not choose the wine in front of me.
Alex Dupler (00:32:19):
That's how I first encountered the 2017 standalone web, maybe it was 2016. The first time power BI was split out. I was doing office 365 admins and I got like a push notification. I was like, "This is cool." And I built some stuff and I showed it to my manager and he was like, "That's cool. How much is it?" "$10 a month." "Nope, can't afford it." And that's when I started looking for jobs anywhere where they had good Excel people.
Rob Collie (00:32:46):
Yeah, and to put that in perspective, this is the punchline to many jokes when people ask us how much it is. We go, "It's $10 a month per user." We all just start laughing. Like, "Oh my God, it's like stealing. It's so cheap."
Alex Dupler (00:32:58):
I didn't even have that many users.
Rob Collie (00:33:02):
I mean, this might be $30 a month. You know, like, nope.
Alex Dupler (00:33:06):
No.
Rob Collie (00:33:07):
It's like when we first moved to Cleveland back in the day, it was right in the middle of the financial crisis. We were looking at real estate and everything. And there were houses for sale in Cleveland for $10,000, like $10,000. And I started laughing. I'm like, imagine the deal going down. This house has been on the market for 180 days at $10,000. And you come in and say, "Look, I've got a cash offer. I'm willing to pay asking price. But the grill out back? You need to leave it." And the owner's like, "Mmmmm."
Alex Dupler (00:33:43):
My wife's best friend lives in Cleveland and they recently bought a house. And so we looked at a bunch of Zillow listings. I'm like, "Oh man, we could pay cash. Move next door." And they're sort of north of the Cleveland Clinic, that super nice neighborhood up in there. I was like, "Oh yeah, we could buy a very nice house, but our family is not there." Also, have you looked at the weather? It's not Seattle.
Rob Collie (00:34:05):
No, it's not Seattle, but I'll tell you what, here's an interesting description of statistics. When we moved to Cleveland, it wasn't because we wanted to, it was because basically my kids had been taken to Cleveland and so we're trying to console ourselves. We're like, "Okay, well, okay. It's going to be colder. There's going to be snow. Okay, okay. But at least it isn't going to be as overcast." And then we looked it up and Cleveland has more overcast days per year than Seattle. So we were like, "Damn, that sucks." However, it turns out that the definition of overcast days is very, very, very important. Because like an overcast day in Cleveland is like 75% of the sky is covered by clouds. That's an overcast day. At no point in time ever is Cleveland under a one mile thick, oppressive blanket that starves you, where you don't even have any idea where the sun is in the sky. So number of days is one of those misleading statistics. Total amount of oppressive cloud cover needs to be a different statistic. Trust me, there's more sun in Cleveland on an ongoing basis than there is in Seattle. Those winter and fall months, man, those are rough.
Alex Dupler (00:35:16):
That's not the part that bothers me. I was born and raised in Seattle. It's the shoveling your driveway in March, that part of it.
Rob Collie (00:35:24):
You could just be the delinquents that we were and just get a four wheel drive vehicle and say, "Screw it."
Alex Powers (00:35:31):
You don't shovel in March. After February, you don't shovel. It's in my contract. I don't shovel after March 1st. That's it. Because it's going to melt.
Alex Dupler (00:35:40):
Eventually.
Alex Powers (00:35:40):
It'll melt by the end of the month.
Rob Collie (00:35:43):
By the end of the month.
Alex Powers (00:35:44):
By the end of the month, it'll be gone. The rainstorm's coming. Sunshine's going to happen. I ain't shoveling. No, I put that in my contract years ago.
Rob Collie (00:35:53):
Cleveland's where I learned the rule, we do not adopt dogs that require walking.
Alex Powers (00:35:58):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:35:58):
They need to be able to go out in the backyard and come back in. I fell so many times on ice. I eventually got, they're like crampons essentially.
Alex Dupler (00:36:06):
Yak tracks?
Rob Collie (00:36:08):
Yak tracks, that's what they are. Yak tracks or something else. You can't intentionally slip on yak tracks. It's crazy. But without them, just any day now broken hip.
Alex Dupler (00:36:19):
Our friends that lived there, they just got a golden retriever. We met the puppy when we were visiting with them this summer. Very cute, but I think they have some of those walks in their future.
Rob Collie (00:36:29):
So you start looking for a job, that's what led you into Mount Redmond?
Alex Dupler (00:36:34):
Yeah, I literally went looking for jobs good with Excel in Seattle. I found a contract position into Microsoft, making sure that the salespeople were assigned to the right customers and got paid on the right quota because advertising the agency model, it makes that much more complicated. Because we were in this model where we'd try and keep all the customers of an agency with the same salesperson which makes a lot of sense, especially when you're the underdog and you have relatively few sales resources, you get more leverage. But customer's change agencies all the time, have no respect for our compensation cycles, and so it was quite the nightmare.
Rob Collie (00:37:15):
Yeah, I love that. Like, so here's how we'll define the world for our benefit, "Oh world, you did not get the message. World, please don't change. Don't have your own things going on." Yep, that sounds like a software engineering problem from the nineties back before the industry kind of got wiser. So you start talking about the show. It seems like with a format like that, it's got to wander, which is what our show does too, by the way. So what are some of the most entertaining or valuable corners that you found yourself wandering into over time?
Alex Powers (00:37:48):
I'm still excited with our first episode where we talked about kind of beyond the desktop where it's no longer just development in [inaudible 00:37:56] desktop. It now almost takes like five different applications to build something at scale, which is like a good and bad thing. Well, you're getting more tools, seeing new things faster, more performing, et cetera, but why do I need 10 tools? Can we solve that within the desktop application? And we just had a really good conversation, a lot of attendees there, providing their own thoughts. And it kind of comes back to like this overwhelming feeling of learning power BI it's. Like I have to learn 20 new things all the time, learning, learning, learning. It's just never ending. That was my key episode.
Alex Dupler (00:38:26):
I agree. I mean, I think that's been the central theme of the whole show. I mean, we did that first episode and then we've talked, we've had the same conversation about these tools in so many different contexts. What are the different ways to do dev ops in power BI? What are different ways to measure how you're doing in terms of the effectiveness of your models? And so all of that is sort of external to the desktop application.
Alex Powers (00:38:52):
I think the best part, too, is that we're not from these traditional backgrounds of 20 years of BI or 20 years of kind of dev ops. We're learning this real time, sharing our experiences of, Rob, I think you call us power users or business users that find these tools, that get empowered by this technology. That is the seat in which we sit in. Hey, I found Excel 2010 power query add in 2013, 2016. I'm fighting with my IT admins. Can you please just upgrade to the next monthly release that will solve all my problems? Where Alex D is on the other series fighting tooth and nail for a 2007 license. It's kind of funny to hear that conversation.
Rob Collie (00:39:32):
$10 a month. We need those charity commercials like Sally Struthers used to do. This is Alex Dupler. For $10 a month, less than the price of a cup of coffee, you could get him an O 365 license.
Alex Dupler (00:39:50):
Yeah. So we ended up getting some E3 licenses and some E1 licenses, which meant I could work in power query, not using my personal license, but using the company's license. And then when I tried to share it with my coworkers, they only had E1. They couldn't use desktop. They had to use power query online or Excel online. And there was no power query online. And so even once we sort of modernized, we installed like a windows server 2012 and it was already 2015 and I was okay, this is our modernization.
Alex Powers (00:40:26):
So Rob, I'm going to steal one of your quotes here if you don't mind.
Rob Collie (00:40:30):
No, please do. We have an open source quote license at P3.
Alex Powers (00:40:35):
Well, I'll buy you a 2007 Excel license too, if I have to.
Rob Collie (00:40:39):
Fantastic.
Alex Powers (00:40:39):
But one of the items you had said a long time ago, I believe it was either in your book or maybe some of the video recordings you used to do in the studio with a nice button up shirt. You said, "There are two types of people when it comes to technology, those who can see the possibilities and bring about change and those who are about to be affected by it." And I always look at this and I look at things like had kind of talked about with the Excel users who haven't even gotten to this experience yet. There is still somebody out there today that is using Excel 2007 and their employer or their this, their that, or whatever their situation they're red is like, "I just see this little rectangle. It hasn't changed. Why do you want me to go invest in any of this stuff?" Like how often are you still seeing this?
Rob Collie (00:41:17):
Anecdotally in our public classes, which I haven't taught in a while, I've taught one as recently as let's say two years ago. And when I taught public classes for P3, I still stubbornly insisted on using the Excel version of this stuff to teach. Again, because of that onboarding effect.
Alex Powers (00:41:34):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:41:34):
I think I was the only one left at our company that was still stubbornly doing that and I wasn't bothering to argue with others and whatever. So I did this for years, probably the first one of those classes I taught would have been like in 2011. So fighting with different versions of Excel, all the different students showed up with, for a long time, that was like a quarter of the class. The instructions for the class were very clear, show up with this version or don't bother. And they'd show up and no, they had a version, didn't even have power pivot and couldn't get power pivot. And so it was so bad for a while, we would bring spare laptops. If we traveled to another city, we'd be lugging spare laptops with us and they'd just be there ready to go like the hot swap with a student. That problem really went away though. I reached the point where I'd survey everybody at the beginning of class, "What version of Excel are you on," or whatever. And everyone, every single person in the class would be on the basically some version of recent 365.
Rob Collie (00:42:32):
I really do think that the person who's trapped on 2007 or hell even 2010 or 2013, they're out there, but they are really a tiny, tiny fraction of the world now. Whereas that used to be an overwhelming problem. So it's really testament to how successful O 365.
Alex Powers (00:42:52):
I would agree.
Rob Collie (00:42:53):
It's like, I was kind of like cynically betting against it forever, like the tortoise and the hare. Like I woke up one day and that's the world. The world is O 365. I think everyone's on the modern, not everyone, but it rounds to everyone, is on the modern wave of the tools. But they're still shocked when I show them, when we show them, "Did you know that this is in here?" And they're just like, "What?"
Alex Powers (00:43:19):
How is that in here?
Rob Collie (00:43:20):
They get angry because they start to realize how much of their life they have lost by not being told.
Alex Powers (00:43:27):
What I was always seeing was people had to live in two worlds. Like I went to some of the Excel boot camps, Michael Alexander, absolutely transformed on my personal laptop. I'm having the best time of my life in these three-day boot camps. I'm loving, loving, loving. At the very end though, I have to go back to work on Monday. I saw what could be, and I'm now back to what is. And it's just very difficult to kind of live in that middle space. For those that are still out there and listening to this, Hey, look at your surroundings. Hopefully Office 365 is coming within your organization. But if not, kind of like Alex D's story, I just went looked somewhere else. I saw the future that was coming, and I bet it all myself and I went for it. And I think that me and him both kind of share those stories, too.
Alex Dupler (00:44:08):
Inside of Microsoft, in my little corner of the Microsoft that most people in Microsoft don't even know about, I put together a class that I've given a couple of times, Modern Excel for Managers. And basically I would just show them power query and X Lookup. We didn't even talk about Dax. But just to like get them thinking like, "Hey, if you're doing some annoying thing in Excel, maybe there's a couple ways to make it a little bit better. Maybe you've never even seen the formula bar before." I had one person that I worked with who I was like, I didn't handle it very well at first. But she was like, "Can you add these numbers together for me?" And I was like, "Yeah."
Alex Powers (00:44:52):
Just a standard Excel formula bar? Is that what you're talking about?
Alex Dupler (00:44:55):
She was like, "Can you show me the difference between these two numbers?" "I can do that for you, but here, let me come over here and show you something."
Rob Collie (00:45:04):
So there was another program manager on being, because I was such an Excel, I'd come from the Excel team, I'm such an Excel zealot, that all someone had to do was say that they needed Excel help and I was there.
Alex Powers (00:45:17):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:45:18):
This person, they developed a habit of having me do all of their Excel work for them. This is one of my peers. And then of course passing off the work as their own. Fine, I wasn't that career minded, really. Six months after this is when I volunteered to no longer be a manager. So climbing the corporate ladder wasn't some voracious appetite of mine. So, okay, fine, fine. I knew what was happening, but I was still okay because the Excel problems were so fun. Keep them coming. Then one day this person asked me for Excel help. And there were these two columns of numbers. And this person had subtracted column two from column one to create column three and then added up column three to get the difference.
Alex Powers (00:46:04):
I'm waiting for the reveal, because there's a big story here and I'm loving it right.
Rob Collie (00:46:09):
I said, "Well, you know, you could have just summed column one and column two, and then taken the difference between the two sums." And they said, "But wouldn't the answer be different?" There was this moment of silence. I'm looking. I'm looking at them. They're looking at me. I'm looking at them. They're looking at me. At that moment, they realized that they couldn't use me anymore because I was now dangerous. I now knew that they didn't know math. They didn't just not know spreadsheets, they didn't know math. They were exposed. This person is now an executive at Google.
Tom LaRock (00:46:48):
This person being the executive at Google. I have no doubt probably doesn't know math. However, as somebody who uses technology and knows that data can be dirty and whatnot, I would actually, if it was me Rob, I would say do it both ways and make sure the answers match. Because you know what? We both seen it where it didn't work out.
Rob Collie (00:47:10):
That's true. But like when you see all the numbers in front of you, you physically see them all. You've got access. There's nothing hidden going on here. Oh, by the way, Tom, what's your degree in again?
Tom LaRock (00:47:21):
I have a master's in mathematics from Washington State University.
Rob Collie (00:47:23):
Masters, yep. Yeah, the masters in math is what allows Tom to say, "I'm not sure."
Tom LaRock (00:47:29):
Now hold on. Hold on. We've seen it. We've seen it.
Rob Collie (00:47:35):
There's a name for this. It's like the distributive property or associative property or something. There's some property that we learned in middle school.
Tom LaRock (00:47:41):
See, that's math with paper and pencil. Now we're talking about using Excel for math. So the tool, there could be something like, "Hey wait," and that's why we tell you, "well, just do it both ways." Even Wayne Winston would probably say, "Yeah, well have two columns. They should match. If they don't match..."
Rob Collie (00:47:58):
No, no he would not, not in this particular case.
Tom LaRock (00:48:01):
You're right. He wouldn't.
Rob Collie (00:48:02):
Every time I tell this story, someone always sort of like takes a sympathetic stance towards the antagonist and I end up feeling like a heel.
Tom LaRock (00:48:09):
You shouldn't. You shouldn't.
Rob Collie (00:48:12):
But come on.
Tom LaRock (00:48:15):
I'm with you. I have no doubt that they don't know math because I come across the same people. I do.
Rob Collie (00:48:22):
It's think it's the intersection of all of those things, That I was being used the whole time.
Tom LaRock (00:48:27):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:48:29):
Which I had kind of made my peace with. But then on top of that, this incredibly aggressive ladder climber, the kind of person who really was kind of like willing to climb over the bodies of their colleagues. There's something delicious about, even though I was the rube in the whole story up until a certain point. I was being taken advantage of and I knew it. But even me in that situation, there was that moment of just like jaw dropping dumbstruck, like just looking at this person going, "Oh my God, you did not do that."
Alex Powers (00:49:09):
I'm going to lift us up from the depths here of career and everything else. I thought you were going to take us into that they didn't use cell references, which I've seen people type in column A plus column B's value in an equals. And it's like, "Well, why didn't you just do A1 plus B1?" Mind was blown. So I love that those moments still exist and you find them out in the wild every once in a while. And it's not massive warehouse MPP processing, et cetera, et cetera, that everyone's like, "Oh, this is the," I call it the BI bubble. Everyone's out here living in the BI bubble, writing C sharp, doing tabular and coding, blah, blah, blah. People are still excited about the very simple things that technology can achieve for them.
Alex Dupler (00:49:56):
My in-laws, they own a brewery in Rinton and they make great beer. I offered to help my mother-in-law with some of her bookkeeping that she does on inventory. And she was showing me how she was doing it. And she was like, "Okay, I get these numbers in Excel. And then I get out my calculator." And I was like, "Okay, let me show you how you can do this differently." And I showed her. She was like, "No, no, that's going to be too hard. I'm going to stick with the calculator." And I was like, "Okay, that's fine."
Alex Powers (00:50:20):
I still get the, "I don't trust Excel, so I double check with the calculator."
Rob Collie (00:50:25):
My first exposure to that, I was in college. I was working for a construction management firm that was building the new chemistry building on Vanderbilt campus and I was working in the management trailer. I was sort of all purpose ... we called me the lackey. I would just do whatever anybody needed. Sometimes I'd go out in the building and take measurements for things or whatever. But most of the time, I was just doing paperwork and stuff. They turned over the spreadsheet for this latest change order to the project to Vanderbilt management. And the price tag, it was an Excel spreadsheet and it had a column of values that were summed and there was a number at the bottom of it. And I remember the guy Tony who worked for Vanderbilt going, "Well, someone's going to have to double check these numbers. We can't just pay this contract." And my boss was just looking at him going, "Come on. That's what the spreadsheet is for is for doing that." And Tony's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. But still, I mean, we can't just pay this number." I can understand that stance a little better, anyway, I just looked like a giant meany. But remember. This was someone who was taking advantage of me.
Alex Powers (00:51:36):
I agree. I agree.
Alex Dupler (00:51:38):
One of the things that I wanted to touch on in this conversation, something you've brought up a lot, which is going from BI to taking action within the report. And I got to tell you, this concept terrifies me. As a BIPM, I'm terrified of it. And I totally agree that the value is there, but in the BI space, we are really bad at testing. And if I think about how going from, Hey, I've got a report and these are the numbers to someone's going to click a button and it's going to change something in a system of record, the level of quality and testing goes up and I think really threatens the quick solution thing that you've also talked about is your bread and butter of like, Hey, we're going to do this really fast and it's going to blow your mind. But if I got to throw all that testing in there to make sure I don't blow up your source system instead, I don't know how those two things coexist.
Rob Collie (00:52:39):
Yeah. that's a fair point. I mean, for a moment there, when you were saying the taking action part and this terrifies you, before I understood the subtleties of your point, I was going to make the joke like, "Oh, you want this to be like the psychic hotline. It's for entertainment purposes only. Please don't use this report to take any action."
Alex Dupler (00:52:57):
It does make my job easier, I will admit, but it is a little bit more nuanced than that.
Rob Collie (00:53:02):
Okay, okay, fine. So anyway, I still managed to sneak the joke in there without ... it's not a joke at your expense because your point is different. Okay, there's escalating versions of this with escalating versions of responsibility and test implications and things like that. So you can just start with report design and working backwards from the types of action, your constituents, the users of your report. In classes what I would teach this concept on the end of the last day, as sort of like a religious sermon. I would encourage people to think of the users of their reports as each one of them sitting in front of like some gigantic cartoonish bat computer looking thing with these giant oversized 1960s, pop art colored buttons and they're labeled things like "open more stores" or "adjust hours of locations" or "increase head count, reduce head count" or "change product mix" or whatever. It's actually kind of interesting, when you imagine e ...
Rob Collie (00:54:03):
... mixed or whatever, right? It's actually interesting when you imagine it that way to give it that physical manifestation, it actually becomes a little bit easier, for me anyway, to imagine what these people can do, because every role in a company really has a finite number of actions that they can take. Now, finite in terms of their categories of actions. It's certainly infinite when you get into the details of what are you going to do. And if you start to think of them from that perspective and you think, okay, what I should do is build reports that advise them or at least are helping inform them as to which control they should touch on their dashboard and directionally which way they should move it.
Rob Collie (00:54:45):
And it sounds like not that important of a trick, not that powerful of a trick, but if you actually apply that methodology faithfully, you end up with a vastly different portfolio of reports that you have built. Even I, very often, don't live up to my own principle in this regard. Because it's so easy. It's so seductively easy. It's the path of least resistance to grab all the data, load it up, make the model, that's fun, and then it's like flowing downhill. It's just like, oh, this is the easy and fun part, right? And then inevitably, you just start slapping together some reports. And those reports, in some ways, are just exposing the coolness of what you've built.
Rob Collie (00:55:29):
Now, that still leads to some very, very useful things. That's mind-blowingly better than what you ended up with in the old dark ages of Excel or even traditional BI. But I mean, oh my God, we were just talking about it on the last podcast. Some of the things that I have seen in the world that were supposed to be helping people make decisions were better described as their opponents in the process. This report was something that you had to fight to figure out what you should do at your dashboard.
Rob Collie (00:55:59):
So even before we start with any sort of actual software integration and taking action and things like that, that's a really, I think, important religion to develop. And again, when you're at your best, your absolute gold medal in the Olympics celebrated by the world best, maybe 30% of your output will live up to this. You just can't, you can't execute that way all the time. It's really, really hard. But it's software development. You are building software when you're building reports. You should have the same sort of mindset, if you can, as the Power BI team has when they sit down to design a new feature in their software.
Alex Dupler (00:56:38):
I totally agree. One of the questions I've been asking a lot, because I've been working on reports for the salespeople to take to the customers is, what is the conversation you're going to have with the customer? Not, what is the metric, but how does this fit into the conversation? And part of this is because my superpower and my career is going and building tools for the thing I used to do. And I think a lot of BI people come from that, where they were in the business and they were doing a thing, they just started making the reports for that thing. And somewhere along the line, they either work away from it for too long or they solve those problems. They had to learn how to make reports for something they haven't done for years. And I think that's a difficult transition and one I've been going through.
Alex Dupler (00:57:26):
But yeah, learning how to ask questions of the user, because they're not just going to tell you... what they tell you isn't what they need. You have to learn how to learn from what they say, what they actually want.
Rob Collie (00:57:42):
Yeah, it's a fine art. And by the way, when you've been in "BI", building the same reports for a long time, generally speaking, looking backwards anyway, those reports also sucked because they were constrained by what was possible at the time. And so they were never very ambitious. And most of those reports amounted to... A lot of times they just amounted to the data dump import that's used for something else. It's just, again, it's the opponent. It's better than nothing, but it's meager, meager help. And suddenly you're given this brand new tool set that's capable of so much more.
Rob Collie (00:58:22):
And unfortunately what I see a lot of times, when you give Power BI to an IT department, they go, "Oh hot damn, the new SSRS." This is the new reporting services. We're going to use it like reporting services. Load that big one flat wide table and pigeonhole it as visualization. It's just like, "Come on."
Alex Powers (00:58:45):
I'm telling you my favorite DAX is always written from the IT department. It's just written like a massive sequel statement, 400 lines. None of it makes any sense. It's like, "Can we just calculate, maybe another table here or there."
Alex Dupler (00:58:59):
The folks coming from the IT department, the one thing they do have going for them is that they did learn to format their code. Sometimes people coming from the Excel world, they learned that they can't format their code. And so I'm not sure that I would agree that the worst DAX comes from the IT department. Because you take a DAX statement and you take all the formatting out, and you've just made it 10 times worse.
Alex Powers (00:59:21):
From readability, yeah, I would agree.
Rob Collie (00:59:24):
I gave a talk one time where I asked the trick question of, what's the number one programming language in the world? And the punchline is it's Excel formulas. In terms of usage, it's overwhelmingly Excel formulas. And then I showed them, the audience, just to underline it, I take a chunk of Java or something off the internet. I put it on the screen. And I take an Excel formula, a really complicated Excel formula, and do the same. Put it next to it. But when I put that Excel formula on the screen, it's formatted, it's indented, it's got line breaks and everything. So that it looks, and it does, it looks ... suddenly, it looks a lot more like the Java above it. And then I go, but of course, the Excel programmers, they like it the hard way. And so then I clicked next on the slide deck and it all squishes down into one paragraph. It was randomly line broken.
Alex Dupler (01:00:11):
So at some point, Excel started supporting white space and formulas. And I don't know when it was, but it used to be, if you did that, you'd just break the formula. At some point in the last five years, you can add line breaks and indentations to your Excel formulas. Now, the code editor makes that very difficult, but at least the formula will still work.
Alex Powers (01:00:34):
I was doing this in 2013 so it's been around for a while.
Rob Collie (01:00:36):
Why don't these tools make this automatic?
Alex Powers (01:00:38):
I would agree with that. Why doesn't... Whenever you hit that checkbox and Power BI, why doesn't it just format it right then and there?
Alex Dupler (01:00:44):
I don't know a power BI product team person.
Alex Powers (01:00:50):
Well, I'll tell you what: ideas.powerBI.com.
Rob Collie (01:00:56):
So there was something you guys were talking about earlier that I wanted to come back to. Having both come from non-traditional backgrounds, by the way, that's the majority of backgrounds.
Alex Dupler (01:01:04):
That's the traditional background for BI.
Rob Collie (01:01:06):
That's exactly. Oh, that's right. Non-traditional is the new traditional. So do either of you ever find yourself wrestling with some version of imposter syndrome because of that lack of a credentialed background. Does that ever haunt you at all or "Nope, not bothered"?
Alex Dupler (01:01:22):
I am optimistic as a fault. So I got to Microsoft and I was like, "Okay, great. I'm going to find the secret Excel people in the internal stuff." Similar thing with Power BI. I'm like, "Okay, great. I'm at Microsoft, I'm learning Power BI. There's got to be people that are better than me." And it's been almost five years that I've been here, one color badge or another. And except for the folks on the CAT team, I really haven't met that many people that are better at it than me. Now, on the other hand, when you look at Alex's team and you're like, "Okay, well, I've been reading his blog for years. I've been reading his blog for years. I've subscribed to his YouTube channel" All of a sudden that job intimidates me. And similar to Alex, I wouldn't mind working there, but man, that's quite the hall of heroes. I definitely feel some imposter syndrome when I'm like, "Okay, well I think I have some of the experience necessary to do this, but I am not Chris Webb."
Alex Powers (01:02:25):
So I'll speak from that end words like, "Hey, I'm surrounded by the experts." Within the industry, I'll say that because they still have their own challenges. They still have their own day to day where there is something simple that blows their mind once again. It's like, well, I didn't even know that that would have been there for the past 14 months. I come from an Office background. This is part of my journey. And so I learned Excel. I learned all the modern Excel capabilities. Learned Power BI, I'm learning Azure. I'm within that learn at all journey and I am not the expert. My job is to find expert answers as best as I possibly can. So this is advice for everyone and I am the best at what I am the best at today.
Alex Powers (01:03:06):
Those around me, who I can help, I absolutely love helping. So Rob, when you were talking about, "Hey, someone reaches out with a small question like you do want to jump in and you do want to help. Obviously, it comes back to a point of scalability like, well, can I help everyone in the world? No. I just have to find new ways to spread my message or get my voice out there. There are so many things I still want to learn tomorrow. There are so many things where I'm just pacing myself. I'm not going to go become the expert at C# to write DAX. Power BI should just be simpler. It should have an advanced ribbon. It should have all these capabilities built in like the ...
Alex Powers (01:03:36):
I'm really excited like the DAX auto generator coming out in the future here. I want to say February next year. I don't think it'll be that great on day one. Because obviously it depends upon an incredible model to get incredible system written DAX. But, my God, everything should be made simpler with technology. If we require experts to use this stuff, I'm sorry, it's just not for me. It's not where I want to be. I love the low code side of things.
Alex Dupler (01:04:01):
It doesn't have to be good. It just has to be the macro recorder. Coming back to what we were talking about before.
Rob Collie (01:04:07):
Like LARPing, acting it out, pantomime, HoloLens. That's where the industry's headed.
Alex Powers (01:04:11):
I love, Rob, that you also said, "Hey, don't write any M." I would agree. I want people to do as much as humanly possible with the lowest barrier for entry. Go, Thomas.
Tom LaRock (01:04:23):
So Alex P, when you just said that about being the best person, that's something I've talked about before as well. No matter what you have me here for and if I know what I'm doing or not, whatever it is that you need help with, I'm willing to help. And the fact is I'm the best person for what we're doing right now until the best person shows up. And that's the attitude, I think, any data professional has to have. Even with Rob, and the guy who couldn't do the math, he's the best person at Google right now until the best person shows up.
Rob Collie (01:05:03):
They're the best at getting other people to secretly do their bidding.
Tom LaRock (01:05:08):
Until somebody else shows up that does it better.
Rob Collie (01:05:13):
I like to think that I educated that person that day though.
Tom LaRock (01:05:17):
Oh, you sure did.
Rob Collie (01:05:18):
They learned something. Their Grinch brain grew two sizes that day.
Tom LaRock (01:05:23):
They learned they needed to put some distance between you and them.
Rob Collie (01:05:26):
That's right. They knew that they had to give me a wide berth from that point forward. Anyway. And they probably then also proactively went about character assassinating me behind the scenes in case I leaked that knowledge. Knowing this person, that probably happened.
Alex Dupler (01:05:41):
They didn't go Google order of operations and learned how to do a little bit of math.
Rob Collie (01:05:47):
How would they even know to Google for that? Like order of operations?
Rob Collie (01:05:54):
You said Alex, you're not the expert. Oh my gosh. You are an expert. You're not the expert. Of course. Okay. Like anybody that wants to call themselves "the expert" earns every bit of ridicule that's about to come their way. Right? And every bit of comeuppance that's about to come their way. Right? Every bit of it. Oh, eat it up. Right? You asked for this. So I agree. You're not the expert, but oh my gosh. Are you an expert? When we had Hugh Millen on the podcast, the ex NFL quarterback, he pointed out sometimes... I really like... Let's pick any activity that humans engage in. And let's assume that you could know the rank order of how good people are, which of course is itself a fallacy. Right? But there's one person in the world who is the best. Everyone else is in the middle somewhere.
Rob Collie (01:06:42):
And there's also someone that's the worst, but like the overwhelming majority of humanity is in the middle somewhere. So like just the fact that you can look up the ladder and see people that you think... And oftentimes people that you look up the ladder, you think they're up the ladder from you. They're not, they're not, when you really get up close and personal or more realistically they're up the ladder in some ways, it's not one ladder, it's actually a million parallel ladders and you've all got a coordinate on each axis. This is why I wanted to talk about the imposter syndrome thing, is that everyone that's listening is somewhere in the middle. We're all also somewhere in the middle and relative to where we all were, including me, when all we had was Excel like V-Lookup and single table pivots,
Alex Powers (01:07:27):
I just want to go on the record, I'm an index match guy, just so we can kind of clear the air.
Rob Collie (01:07:32):
This is another joke that I used to tell in my public classes. I raised my hand and say "okay"... so if you look up, right, right, right. But there's a few of you who are index matchers, right? Like 1 out of 7 people put their hand up. Right. And I go, "and everybody you work with knows you're an index matcher... You're really vocal. You're in everybody's little face about you being an index matcher, aren't you?" And their colleagues are sitting next to them laughing like "Yes!".
Alex Dupler (01:07:58):
There's one person who thinks it's actually supposed to be index match match.
Alex Dupler (01:08:04):
And then there's me on the other side, which is like, why are you using V-lookups? Have you used [inaudible 01:08:08] ?
Rob Collie (01:08:13):
Yes. But I have yet to meet the index matcher that isn't proclaiming to the world.
Tom LaRock (01:08:19):
Is that like the CrossFit of Excel?
Tom LaRock (01:08:22):
Did I tell you I do CrossFit? I wonder what the Venn diagram, the overlap of CrossFit and index matchers. I wonder...
Rob Collie (01:08:35):
You'd have to control for the Excel audience first. I'm not sure that in general, the index match crowd overlaps a lot with the CrossFit crowd. And where does Camaro ownership fit on this Venn diagram?
Alex Powers (01:08:56):
I've seen some stuff like, these are some old war stories you guys get ready to tell
Rob Collie (01:09:02):
And you know that. It's not like this is the first time you've come to terms with the fact that you have powers. Oh my God, I didn't even mean to do that. Your last name is Powers. I just said you had powers!
Alex Powers (01:09:14):
I think a lot of it comes back to... Just those of us who have been around for a while, those of us who are reading the books, you can't see it on the stream here, but Alex D. has got all of his books on the shelf. I have the exact same stuff in the background. I've got books on my desk. It's just like, we're always constantly learning. We're not stopping. I think when you look around, you're just like, there's so many people out in the community doing weird wild things. I would rather read their article, listen to their podcasts, watch their video. I'm still in my little nerd corner here with the things that still excite me. I like how you alluded to at the beginning, Rob, where yeah, that looks cool. That looks fun. It's shiny. It's awesome. But this is what excites me. That's what I still just love day in, day out.
Alex Dupler (01:09:55):
I'll also add that when Powers moved over to the Power BI CAT team, I saw that job opening and I thought about applying. And when I heard he was going to apply, I didn't even bother.
Rob Collie (01:10:08):
Well, you just mentioned earlier that this is Thunderdome. 2 power BI professionals enter, 1 power BI professional leaves.
Alex Powers (01:10:15):
I had the commitment to change my last name. So, for me, it was kind of a slam dunk.
Rob Collie (01:10:20):
You were talking about books, I think you're the only book review on Amazon that mentioned the intermission.
Alex Powers (01:10:26):
Yeah. Loved it.
Rob Collie (01:10:27):
That's why I remembered that review. I had no recollection of who had written it.
Tom LaRock (01:10:32):
I forgot the intermission.
Rob Collie (01:10:33):
When I saw the text of the review, I'm like, oh, that one, that one. Yes. Like halfway through the book, I put a one-page intermission in that said, "Hey, you can just put this book down, go do amazing things. You're already amazing. If you understand what's here, just know that what's ahead of you is also awesome, but don't feel like you have to judge yourself by how well you recall and master the things that follow this page. It's like this explicit reminder of always being in the middle somewhere, I noticed this in classes as well. People would, if I teach a two day class or whatever, people would tend to judge how well they understood it by the list of things that they didn't understand as opposed to, by the list of things that they did. And so, I also put this concept of intermission into my teaching, where I would be like building up this list of cool new capabilities that we're learning relative to regular Excel.
Rob Collie (01:11:31):
And then eventually near the end of day one, I draw a line under this and say, okay, "Everything above this line. I want you to leave here having understood. So we'll drill this. You'll ask me questions about it, whatever, everything below this line is gravy and more of a tour of what is possible if you remember that there were things like this that were possible below this line. Even if you don't remember exactly how to do them, you're going to be in good shape. But this above line is the foundation". It's basically the same concepts that happen pre the intermission page in that book.
Rob Collie (01:12:04):
I was really grateful. A couple of things just broke the right way writing that book. One was that I didn't choose to go with a traditional publisher. I decided to publish through Bill Jelen's company. And he asked me if I wanted a traditional editor and I said, nah, let's not do that. And the other one was is that I found that I wasn't able to write in the technical voice. I tried, I tried to emulate, again the imposter syndrome thing. You tried to emulate the stars. You try to emulate like every O'Reilly book you've ever picked up. And I just couldn't, it was exhausting. And so I wrote it in that quirky, like, why not put an intermission page in the middle of the book, right? That was just so I could get through it. Just so I could survive it. All these years later, it stands as one of the things that people really like about the book. And I'm just really grateful that people accepted it. It wasn't some stroke of genius, but I do look back on all that with a smile.
Alex Powers (01:13:01):
So I love that it is your voice throughout the book. Question for you, because I'm kind of the weird quirky style too, where I'm going to write something that really excites me and it's going to be fun, and I'm going to have a good time when I get to the bottom of this. Start out with a two paragraph thing that turns into like a 17 page diatribe. You're just like, ah, that's not what I wanted to do, but here I am. The style of reading that I enjoy most though, is the most dry technical, boring, where it's a labor, it's a labor to understand it. It's a labor to get to that final page. John Walkenbach was that for me, from the Excel world where you would talk about O'Reilly, what is your personal style of learning? Do you still enjoy like a deep spec page and getting into the nuts and bolts? Talk to me about that.
Rob Collie (01:13:44):
I'm just kind of a terrible learner, it turns out. And this is why my adoption of something like Power BI, a DAX, a data modeling to me just like so extraordinary. This is something that, I couldn't help it. I also think benefited tremendously from the fact that there weren't a lot of people in the space when I started. There wasn't anyone to judge myself against, really. I was the only person at that point in time, like back in 2010, I was the only person who was living this every single day. That was their only thing they were doing. Even back then, like Chris Webb, like he was still doing a lot of MDX, the Italians, Alberto, Marco, they were still doing a lot of MDX. They had a lot of existing clients and I had a clean slate to do nothing but this, this isn't a strength of mine. This isn't something that I'm proud of. I want to think that I would, but I'm not positive that I would throw myself into this stuff with the same vigor today because I would be judging myself against those who went before me. Whereas before in 2010, I got to treat it like an adventure. Like I was out there discovering the frontier. I was like Lewis and Clark. And I don't consume very much. I'm not an avid consumer of YouTube. I don't really read books. I don't read blogs. I could paint a very negative picture of myself, for the listening audience, if I wanted, I think maybe the positive way to describe it is that I found that I'm at my best like in a phone booth, like very focused.
Rob Collie (01:15:12):
So I've got to be hands-on, I've got to be struggling against it myself. And then I will go and run the search that's looking for a particular technique, but I don't even like YouTube as how-to, I don't have the patience to watch a video. It seems like 99% of humanity does. I have such bad ADD, like I'm trying to scroll the page, get to the point. Where's the answer. You know, I don't have much success scrolling through YouTube fast-forwarding videos. I always missed the point that I needed. It's like trying to fast forward commercials. I'm always over running.
Rob Collie (01:15:45):
I don't think anyone should ever try to actively emulate my learning style because it's just not a very good learning style, but because it's such a poor learning style, it made this stuff seem even more special to me because even I, with my awful learning style, devoured this stuff. A true statement about this was that even as I was doing all of this, people were telling me I should write a book. And I was saying, "no, I shouldn't". If I understand this, everyone understands this.
Alex Powers (01:16:12):
Yeah. That's always tough. You always think that too. We're like, "well, everyone knows this". That is like 1% of the time that that ever is the actual case, is what I'm finding day in and day out.
Alex Dupler (01:16:25):
We were talking about digging in and helping users. And this has become a really big part of how I run our BI practice, which is that I'm a PM building tools to make analysts successful. The way that I know what tools to build is I spend most of my time helping them be successful, building stuff. I don't have a calendar full of meetings with various stakeholders. I keep my calendar open. And then any time someone on our broader team of analysts has problems, I try and help them. Sometimes it's like, well, you just need to learn this function. And sometimes it's like, if we just added a table to the [inaudible 01:17:08] , your life would be much easier. I'm going to put that in. And, sure, it's going to be 4 months before we get around to it. But the next time that problem comes up, I know exactly that we've covered that scenario. So I feel like that's been a really successful strategy for us.
Alex Dupler (01:17:24):
Now, the downside of this, and this is something that Seth and Mike were giving me a hard time on the other day on Twitter, is that I don't create a lot of documentation because every one of those conversations is unique. I could write it all down and tell them, "Hey, just go read the docs", but then I don't learn what they're trying to learn. And I really struggle with that trade-off.
Rob Collie (01:17:45):
At least, you know, there's always a job for you as a Cosmos engineer. Have you thought about getting into software development? I mean like really... Documentation is overrated too, right? For end users, it is. Cause again, the end-users are flawed, right? They're humans, we're not talking about an API here. We're talking about tasks. So if you really wanted to write documentation for your data models and stuff, it's basically a book. It needs to have a narrative. It's pick up a copy of my book and go, "okay, this book is written about a system and it's got a very deliberate reveal order. And it talks about the human problems that need to be solved and why you have to make your peace with this". And you have to help guide them down the path. To be successful documentation for something as complicated as a sophisticated data model, it's more like a book than docs. And then, you know what's going to happen? Two-thirds to three-quarters of people aren't even going to pick up the book. So I'm not giving you a license to never write documents, but I'm giving you a license to not write documents.
Alex Dupler (01:18:57):
Well, one of the things that I've struggled with, because everybody's like, "oh, do you have a data dictionary?". And I'm like, 90% of the questions that we get, it's about the glue. It doesn't fit in that column, name, description framework. It's like, Hey, how do these things fit together? Why is this missing? That doesn't fit in a data dictionary. The other thing is of course reading the documentation is like a superpower, Alex, you clearly have that in spades, but lots of folks, like, they're not going to go looking for it.
Tom LaRock (01:19:27):
They're not going to look for it because they're not expecting it that it exists.
Alex Dupler (01:19:30):
But even the power BI documentation, they're like, "Hey, how do I do this thing?". I was like, "well, did you try looking same period last year, did you try looking for a function to do prior year?" It's like, "no". Oh, well.
Rob Collie (01:19:47):
And then you searched the Microsoft documentation for the ALL function. You're a brand new user. You're the person who doesn't understand the ALL function. So by definition, you're the person who should not be told "this is the table function". That's a terrible way to introduce it to someone. Okay, it's technically true, and I know that on Reddit, that's the best kind of true, but it's also not helpful.
Alex Powers (01:20:12):
It's funny. Cause you're talking about docs. Thomas had brought up as well. I'm imagining someone going out to Microsoft docs and typing 'Power BI ALL', how successful is that search result going to be? And then it comes back to people like Rob coming up with these weird wacky names, a data flow, a this a that, how are people going to learn these? Is it with a space? Is it not a space? Terminology is hard, just in the product. And then like you had said, Alex, where would they even go with his basic knowledge to get a correct answer?
Rob Collie (01:20:44):
Let's also not focus on the downside. We're talking about the no docs, we're having a discussion about whether that's okay. Let's just make our peace with it. It's kind of okay. Kind of not okay. But, look at the upside of what you've been doing. You've been having all of these dynamic interactive conversations with all of these users.
Rob Collie (01:21:02):
Interactive conversations with all of these users and that advances the art. That advances things so every one of these people is capable of engaging with and wants to engage with a conversation. And when they're not understanding it, most people will admit it. Those who don't, you can usually read it on their face. You get that two way conversation. The opposite approach would be like, oh, write the docs and I never need to talk to anybody, right? Okay. If you had to pick one extreme or the other for something like this, and we're not talking about an API, right? It'd be different if it were an API, right?
Rob Collie (01:21:33):
And even APIs with their documentation still require books and YouTube videos and training and all that kind of stuff. The amount of sort of human good that you create with this interactive model, this open door policy and helping people directly. I don't think we should get like target fixation on the downsides of this. The upsides of this are enormous and it's got to be super, super gratifying for you.
Alex Dupler (01:22:00):
Yeah. I have a lot of fun.
Rob Collie (01:22:00):
It makes you want to do your job as opposed to hate your job. On another podcast that we haven't released yet, it's coming up, we talk a little bit about how it's a better strategy to lean into one's own strengths than to try to mitigate one's own weaknesses. You don't have an excuse. It's not like you get to ignore your weaknesses, right? But you can't get through life mitigating weakness.
Alex Dupler (01:22:27):
Yeah. Yeah. You got to strive for being T-shaped. It's sort of what you were saying before, which is like, "Hey, there's a list of things you got to know, and then you need to know what's possible." If you come into a circumstance where you need to write some custom M, go look it up. But you got to know that, "Hey, there's a script back there. And if I get into real trouble, maybe there's a solution."
Rob Collie (01:22:50):
Conversation beats broadcast every single time and docs are broadcast. So ideally you have both. If you have to choose though, conversation wins seven days a week, twice on Sunday.
Alex Dupler (01:23:02):
The other story that I wanted to tell, which ties right into this, which is that when you're doing BI, it's really important to know the business. So I grew up in the Pacific Northwest. My dad was Boeing IT for many, many years. He wasn't in the BI space. He was in networking and communications. So in the eighties he was working on a DOD contract. The admiral he was working with told them he was the first admiral in the whole Navy that could email with his project manager back and forth because they were the first ones to get email that worked across the networks. And then later he was working in the Bellevue campus, so right next to where Advanta is, where part of the Power BI team is.
Alex Dupler (01:23:45):
His office was in the Darth Vader building right across from there. And I remember going to his office, this must've been in '93, '94, and under his desk he had a server. And he said, "Oh, that's got our pilot for Exchange." It was the first beta version of Exchange. And he was running, self-hosting it in his office for Boeing. So they were one of the first customers getting in there. But he used to rail against that Bellevue campus, partially because the traffic sucked but mostly because they had IT in Bellevue and they don't make any planes in Bellevue. And he always thought that that was one of their biggest mistakes was not having the IT folks where the business was. And I think that directly translates to BI.
Rob Collie (01:24:34):
I want to go back to '93 or '94 and tell your dad, "Oh, you think traffic is bad?"
Alex Powers (01:24:44):
It was.
Rob Collie (01:24:44):
Just wait.
Alex Dupler (01:24:46):
We lifted in View Ridge and sort of north Seattle, and so to get to Bellevue, he'd have to do one of the two bridges. And yeah, obviously it's so much worse now.
Rob Collie (01:24:58):
I mean Microsoft still had like 10,000 employees at that point in time. When I got there in '96, they had 17,000 in the Puget Sound, right? It's like, we're just getting started. This virus is really just come to shore.
Alex Dupler (01:25:11):
Jeff Bezos hadn't even moved to town yet. Expedia was still a twinkle in someone's eye.
Rob Collie (01:25:17):
This is a very powerful concept. It's super important, right? This goes hand in hand with that other question about non-traditional backgrounds.
Alex Dupler (01:25:24):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:25:24):
Being the tweener, having the business domain in your head and the technical skills to execute is everything. My old joke, and it's not even a joke, I think it's the truth, that greater than 99% of a traditional BI project was just lost on communication of requirements and clarification and mistransmission and misunderstanding and iterating needlessly because human beings don't merge brains. If we had Vulcans with mind-meld, we'd be different, right, but we don't have that. We have a very narrow bandwidth between us, unfortunately.
Alex Dupler (01:25:58):
If anything, it's worse now because the tools have gotten so much more powerful, but we still have the same communication challenges that we always did.
Rob Collie (01:26:07):
Yeah, but I think you're closer though. You're closer, right? You understand the business.
Alex Dupler (01:26:11):
Yes. Some of the self-serve revolution has also made more business people do the work, but in general it used to be that you'd spend all this time getting the requirements right, and then you'd have to go write code for a month. And now you spend all this time getting requirements right, and then you would drag and drop a few fields. And so it takes so much less time to build the thing that the communication is an even bigger percentage of the job.
Rob Collie (01:26:37):
Right.
Alex Dupler (01:26:37):
And yes, you can get a nice feedback cycle going, but that still means that it's the communication that's the job.
Rob Collie (01:26:45):
Yeah. But you're not doing it that way, right? You've already described how you work. You're not going out, sitting down with them and saying, "Hey, write me a doc. I'll be back next week."
Alex Dupler (01:26:54):
No.
Rob Collie (01:26:55):
You're building in real time in front of them and saying, "Oh, do you mean like this?" Right? Picture worth a thousand words and all of that. You're not writing documentation on the data model. You're also definitely not writing requirements documents.
Alex Dupler (01:27:07):
No.
Rob Collie (01:27:09):
So the proof is in the pudding.
Tom LaRock (01:27:10):
So what you're missing is a layer, an organizational layer, of what I would call is a functional analyst. And it doesn't exist for the reasons you've stated. The tools are easier to use, it's self service, people can do these things. So you've lost that bit of communication because traditionally, I would say you would have people there who were the functional analyst that would bridge the gap and with them gone, this is the pain that you feel. You are essentially the functional analyst. You just don't have that title.
Alex Dupler (01:27:40):
No, we do have analysts. That was when I first went from Fender to Blue Badge, I was an analyst focused on a particular sales group. And I did quota setting and some performance reporting, and now I'm a PM for the tools for that group of analysts. And so I don't actually build any reports, zero visual content, only database layers.
Tom LaRock (01:28:06):
No, I was talking more about the business knowledge that you had touched upon. The person that knows the business and knows the technology enough and can speak to both groups and say, "I know what's possible. I know what you need, and I know what's possible and I know how to get it done. And I can even write something for you so that you'll understand what we're doing and why." And I think that layer has disappeared over a couple of decades as tools make it easier for somebody to just sit down and build shit for themselves.
Rob Collie (01:28:35):
Let's paint that in, I think, a more positive light. That role, this sort of middle layer, was always inefficient, and that role has just migrated into someone that's embedded in the business.
Tom LaRock (01:28:49):
They have a different title. They do something else.
Rob Collie (01:28:53):
Yeah. They're the ambassador, right?
Tom LaRock (01:28:56):
But there's still a communication gap because there's nobody above them saying, "Hey, these are the three skills that we need to bridge the gap." We need to have people doing that. I don't care what they're called and that doesn't exist, and therefore we still have this gap and the gap is widening.
Rob Collie (01:29:15):
I disagree. I think the communication gap is dramatically smaller and it's shrinking every day as we get more and more people skilled up on this stuff within the business. I don't think we've lost anything. And when was the last time that someone up the chain from you actually knew more about it than... That doesn't usually happen, right?
Tom LaRock (01:29:34):
I didn't mean to imply that somebody up the chain knew more. It was somebody up the chain understood the value of the role and said, "I got to make sure I have a team of these people."
Rob Collie (01:29:42):
Oh, right, right, right. We talked about a little bit earlier, right? In essence, I wasn't properly valued where I was for a number of different reasons, and so I went looking for a place where I was properly valued. Well, this is the story of where P3 employees come from.
Tom LaRock (01:29:59):
The downtrodden.
Rob Collie (01:30:01):
I mean, so it's kind of good news, bad news, right? It's good news for P3. The world keeps manufacturing underappreciated, awesome people, right? Bad news, it's like, oh, that's really kind of human sad. I mean, it's important to our business, but it's human sad.
Tom LaRock (01:30:18):
It's important for [inaudible 01:30:20].
Alex Dupler (01:30:24):
Well also I think it's amazing how much, when you learn these tools, how quickly you can go from contributing at one level to contributing at a whole nother level. I'm not really a big fan of the 10X engineer thing, but I definitely think from before I learned Power Query to after I learned Power BI, I can do the same work in a 10th of the time. Now my ability to focus over the course of a year, I'm not 10 times more productive, but in short bursts, definitely that was a 10X. The people that learn those skills, the value that they can create in a single business in that single role, I think can quickly outstrip the sort of scope and business model associated with that role. That was part of why I left the lab. It was like, well, listen, this business model only supports a certain salary and that's not going to cut it so.
Rob Collie (01:31:22):
There's a quote, it's probably falsely attributed to but it's attributed to Stalin. The Germans were building these incredibly high quality machines, it was like the Mercedes of tanks. And the Soviets were just cranking out just tons and tons and tons of these T-34s that were meant to run for a week before or whatever. And he said, apparently, again who knows, he apparently said, "Quantity has a quality all its own." And they won by the way. You're talking about the 10X thing, right?
Alex Dupler (01:31:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:31:58):
I want to come back to that and say that it might be that 10X is real, even when you account for friction losses and attention span and things like that. Okay. There's a point at which something is so much faster that it's not that you get to the same place 10 times faster, you get to a place you never, ever would have had the ambition to go.
Alex Dupler (01:32:21):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:32:22):
And in terms of your impact on the business, I believe this stuff is oftentimes more than 10 times faster, honestly. Let's accept it as 10 for the moment. That's ambitious enough. I think the impact on the business, the value of a Power BI empowered human being that's embedded in the business and understands the business domain of the department or whatever is greater than 10 times what the original value of an Excel powered version of that same person. Even if they're not, again, due to friction losses, they're not 10 times as productive in terms of whatever, right?
Rob Collie (01:32:56):
The quality that comes out of that quantity is different and is far, far, far superior. It reflects a question formulation muscle that is rewarded by being exercised. You ask far better questions than you ever would have dared to formulate before because it would just been discouraging and depressing to formulate those questions that you knew you'd never be able to answer. Now it's practically a lay-up. It's an addictive positive cycle. So I'm going to take your less than 10X and go I disagree. I think it's more than 10X.
Alex Dupler (01:33:36):
Well, I definitely agree that there's a quantity piece, which is, I think about before scheduled refresh, how many reports could one analyst support? It's like, well, okay, at some point all they do is refresh the same reports.
Rob Collie (01:33:49):
That's right.
Alex Dupler (01:33:50):
And sure, there's a point with automatic refresh of reports where all you do is serve as tickets on those reports, but that number is way higher.
Rob Collie (01:33:59):
Yeah. And let's be clear. It's not just scheduled refresh. It's the fact that everything in a Power BI model and report is built from the beginning to be one click refresh all, right? That's not how Excel reports work. There's no one-click anywhere right? But then you can schedule it to click that button itself. Oh wow, that's cool. There's a certain point at which an Excel analyst is now sunk by the weight of their own spreadsheet portfolio. Just carrying it around with them and turning the crank on it, they're out of time in the week. And so the joke there is, if you're good at Excel, if you're an Excel analyst and you're good at it, what's the worst thing you can ever do for yourself. And everyone always says, "You can tell people you're good at Excel." And I say, "Yeah, but that ship sailed." The worst thing you can do is to build a spreadsheet that people find really valuable. Your success is going to become your luggage. It's become your ball and chain, right? And so you're actually disincentivized from ever creating another spreadsheet because you know better.
Alex Powers (01:34:56):
I feel like you're speaking to my soul right now, Rob. You're just, I've been here before, but I work in a spec factory too where I wasn't part of the business and it was, "Here are docs, here are specs, just go build it. We don't care." You have no context, and then make sure that you hit that home run with whatever report you're building. You get very good being in those high pressure situations, but I didn't have that connection to the business. I understand that it is valuable, but I don't always think that it is the most important thing in the world if you have someone with the expertise to come in for those last mile efforts because at some point those business analysts, they'll kind of hit that brick wall of capabilities and like, "Oh, we want to scale this. We want to get this to the next level." I think you still need those other people too, accurate or not. And that gap will be closed over time, but that's what I'm still seeing, at least from where we're at today.
Rob Collie (01:35:48):
We still need people.
Alex Dupler (01:35:50):
Yeah.
Tom LaRock (01:35:50):
For sure.
Rob Collie (01:35:51):
I like that. I wake up every day and check has the general AI come yet? Nope. Okay. So we're still needed.
Alex Dupler (01:36:00):
So Rob, if you've got some more time, there's one other area I wanted to ask you about, and this is a callback to one of your first episodes, which I listened to not that long ago, but I think it was Brad and Kai, I think were their names.
Rob Collie (01:36:12):
Yeah.
Alex Dupler (01:36:12):
But one of the things you talked about was working on building a report package around looking at advertising performance, and one of the project I'm working on right now, traditionally, I focused on internal business performance. What was the change in revenue? But now I'm starting to work on how can we use a template app type experience for our salespeople so they can build on demand, a Power BI app for one customer so they can have conversations with the customer? And I am really curious one, how that venture has gone, two, what are the things that are most important in that session or that project?
Rob Collie (01:36:52):
The problem with that ambitious project is that we said as a first step, we're going to get really, really, really solidified for our own stuff. We're going to get our own P3 advertising optimized. That kind of put an impossible ever-moving goalpost between us and that project. Some other things changed too, but we're still working with those folks. So we haven't really gotten to that. I'll be perfectly honest. It hasn't even really started. I think the biggest challenge with any effort like that, were we to go down that route, is that I don't think you can templatize it because so much of the important data is going to be on that customer's side of the fence, right? The actual performance of, for example, for us, the actual performance of this advertising is dependent on what happens to the lead or the customer after they start to work with us.
Alex Dupler (01:37:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:37:46):
And only we know that. Our advertising data model unsurprisingly spices together advertiser data, like from AdWords, with our own CRM and accounting data to calculate how profitable our... We're not running web commerce, right?
Alex Dupler (01:38:05):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:38:06):
We're not running e-commerce. It's not like we're selling widgets that the customer buys it and then we say, "Oh, well they bought a $500 product and we paid $300 for..." or whatever, right? It's not like that. It's a long running thing. But even if we were doing in e-commerce, even then, right, there's a long-term value of this customer. Maybe it's profitable to only break even on their first purchase. It's not a last mile, it's like a last marathon. And of course, Power BI is really good at this. Splicing silos, that's a Power BI strength for the ages, but you have to do it. I mean, even in our stuff, there's some very complicated SQL that sort of calculates in real time, our best guess as to what these leads will be worth because their long-term value is never known for sure.
Alex Dupler (01:38:52):
Right. Well, and if you want to optimize a campaign, you can't wait three months to get a signal.
Rob Collie (01:38:56):
That's right. Yeah. That's exactly right. That's the old knock on BI as a rear view mirror, right? If you only get the information when it's too late to act on it, you're never able to steer. So yeah, every time that that data model refreshes, it's making a statistically historically informed set of estimates as to how those campaigns are performing.
Alex Dupler (01:39:17):
One of the ideas that we've been tossing around a few years back, there was this Azure solution templates thing where you could click a few buttons and spin up an ADF and a SQL DB and a Power BI report, all sort of in one thing. And so one thing that we could do, because we're designing this initial version based on our internal DBs, and we can't expose that. Also lets us expose some data that we can't put in a public API. A lot of customers want to know what their market share is or their share of voice. And we're not going to tell you the denominator for the total marketplace. That's just not going to happen. We're happy to tell you, "Oh yeah, you're at 10%. And if you bid a little more, you could pass your rival there at 12." We love that sales pitch.
Alex Dupler (01:40:04):
But one of the things we've played with is we've got this API that you can get data out and it's not a REST API. It's a SOAP API because it's Microsoft, which is one reason why I don't think we can build a custom connector to put on it. I talked to Matt Masson about it and he was like, "I remember that. That's a SOAP API. You don't want to do that." And if we do leave, they said Matt Masson is one of the engineers on Power Query, one of the most senior Power Query engineers.
Alex Dupler (01:40:31):
So what we were thinking about was, okay, we've got these Python scripts that our support folks wrote to iterate through the API so that they could get data out in bulk. Could we make a version of this that runs in an Azure function or ADF and dumps into a SQL DB that the customer owns and then give them some out-of-the-box reports? Hell, maybe we can integrate Google and Facebook data too because we won't forget to put our data on the first page whereas if you were designing a rational product, you wouldn't necessarily put somebody who's got... Well, we've got 30% share on Desktop, but Desktop isn't the whole ballgame.
Rob Collie (01:41:10):
It's purely alphabetical.
Alex Dupler (01:41:11):
Yeah. That's right.
Rob Collie (01:41:13):
Bing, Facebook, Google. It's defensible.
Alex Dupler (01:41:15):
Yeah. Yeah. So in any of that, we have thought about maybe we should build some reporting, not to be biased just so we can make sure that we're in the conversation. But automating these APIs and putting them in Azure partially so that we can say, "Oh yeah, 50 bucks a month of Azure, and you'll get all your data in this beautiful format. It's not just API calls. It's a tabular model and here's Power BI. And for another $10 a month, you can have this thing going and share it with everybody. And do you need to build some custom reports and integrate some stuff? Sure. But you're halfway there."
Rob Collie (01:41:47):
That architecture stuff, I'm the wrong person to ask about. No, but if you would like to hire P3 for a strategic... So we have people for that, there's an app for that. There's definitely people for that. For our stuff we actually use a third party service called Stitch that extracts data from the AdWords API and dumps it into, guess what, Azure data warehouse. For a while there we were advertising on Bing, but we stopped because the Stitch integration with Bing didn't give us the click IDs.
Alex Dupler (01:42:17):
Yeah. I've heard that before.
Rob Collie (01:42:18):
So we couldn't track anything with any sort of... And again, this is an instance where, because we couldn't evaluate its effectiveness, we actually stopped doing something. It's not a Bing problem I don't think, it's a Stitch problem.
Alex Dupler (01:42:30):
No, it's definitely a Bing problem.
Rob Collie (01:42:32):
Oh, fantastic. So Microsoft should fix that and then Stitch will do it and we'll go back to advertising. But there's an argument to make, right? There are people who are not advertising on that platform simply because they can't report on it.
Alex Dupler (01:42:43):
Yeah. And we've got some products that would be very attractive to you. We have some LinkedIn-based targeting that for B2B sales make a lot more sense than anything you can get from Facebook.
Rob Collie (01:42:54):
Oh, we are about to get into some LinkedIn. Don't you worry. We're coming to that.
Alex Dupler (01:42:58):
So yeah, totally makes sense. And also the other thing that's really big for us, if we go back to when we were talking about the laps, where the business model was commoditized. Well, I don't know if you read Stratechery, but Bing where simultaneously as super aggregator and we have been modularized by Google. You can import your ads from Google into Bing because, to get Mindshare, we need it to be as easy as possible. And so having the reporting be compatible is another part of that. Yeah, people aren't going to just like, " Oh yes. I could get 10% more impressions if I went on to Bing, but if it costs me 30% more time, that's not a good trade, even if the unit economics work." And usually the unit economics are good.
Rob Collie (01:43:42):
We actually found Bing to be very profitable for us to the extent that we could measure it, but we couldn't get granular with it because of the lack of click IDs. And so we just backed off. Well, fellas, I am so glad that we got this together. I know that we talked about it a little bit in the past and we kind of danced around the idea for a little while and then we did the scheduling dance and there's multiple series of dances, but then we finally danced.
Tom LaRock (01:44:05):
We danced.
Rob Collie (01:44:06):
In Thunderdome.
Alex Powers (01:44:11):
Alexi, it was wonderful to meet you both.
Alex Dupler (01:44:14):
Thank you.
Rob Collie (01:44:14):
Two Alex.
Tom LaRock (01:44:15):
Two Alex, one report.
Announcer (01:44:17):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
When Jen Stirrup speaks, she speaks softly. The meaning of her words, however, speak loudly! Jen is CEO of Data Relish, a UK-based consultancy that delivers real business value through solving all manner of business challenges. You don't earn the nickname the Data Whisperer without knowing a great deal about Business Intelligence and AI. Jen certainly knows not only those topics, she knows SO much more!
References in this episode:
Data Kind The Art Of War Blade Runner Tears Scene Episode Timeline:
- 4:30 - The human element of data, Bias in data, implications of Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, and COVID data
- 27:00 - The BI goal is Business Improvement, escalation and taking principled stands, Data-Driven vs Data Inspired
- 46:00 - Seeing the hidden costs of some business strategies, the value of even small successes, Diversity and Inclusion, and online bullying
- 1:29:30 - Jen's mugging story (!)
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Jen Stirrup. Jen and I have had one of those long-running internet friendships that are so common these days, especially in the data world and in certain communities. But we've also had the opportunity to meet in person several times at those things that we used to do called "in-person physical conferences." She's an incredibly well-seasoned veteran of the data world, but if you're expecting us to be talking about things like star schema and DAX Optimization, that's not really what we talked about. You know that our tagline here is "data with the human element," and we definitely leaned into that human element in today's show. Now, we do talk about some of the important human dynamics about data projects. For example, how the business intelligence industry kind of lost its way in the past and forgot that it's all about improvement and how we're as an industry waking back up to that today.
Rob Collie (00:00:54):
We also talked about the value of having even one signature success in a large organization that other people can look at to become inspired. And she has some very interesting and well-founded semantic opinions about terms like "data-driven" and why maybe, "data-inspired" is better. Similarly, she prefers the term "data fluent" to "data literate", and she explains why. But we also touched repeatedly on the themes of ethics and inclusivity in the world of data. Now, I have a personal idea that I haven't really shared on this show before that I call "radical moderation." It's the idea that you can be polite, you can be reasonable, while at the same time advocating for sharp change. Now, this is personally what I would like to see emerge in our political sphere, for instance, a form of polite radicalism. We need to change, but we need to be nice.
Rob Collie (00:01:52):
There aren't many readily available examples that I could point to if I wanted to show you "this is what radical moderation looks like." But now if someone asked me for that, I can point them to this conversation we have with Jen. She is soft-spoken, she is polite, she is open-minded, including the open-mindedness that she might not always be correct. And yet, underneath all of that, is a very firm conviction that we need to be better. And I think that's the best introduction I can give this because I don't want to spoil anything upfront. So, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:28):
Ladies and gentleman, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:02:32):
This is the Raw Data By P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas you know. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data By P3 Adaptive is data...with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:56):
Welcome to the show, Jen Stirrup. It is such a pleasure to see you again, virtually, talk to you. I'm really glad we were able to do this So, thrilled to have you here.
Jen Stirrup (00:03:06):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad we made it work in the end. Diaries, schedules, everything else, but I'm really glad to be here and it's great to speak to you.
Rob Collie (00:03:15):
I know bits and pieces of the Jen Stirrup story and I know bits and pieces of what you're up to. How do you describe yourself on your LinkedIn profile?
Jen Stirrup (00:03:23):
So I would describe myself as really trying to help people make their data better. I've just finished a post- COVID data strategy for a healthcare organization in the US and in the UK. The reason I'm doing that is to try and have a big impact. I believe in that, I think COVID has brought around a real stress and a lot of technical architectures, and a lot of data architectures as well, and there're all sorts of pressures. So I've just finished that, which has been a nice piece of work. I've been working with a religious organization on their data as well. A lot of people are accessing their services as part of a recovery from COVID. I think it's been a very difficult, challenging time for a lot of people in terms of mental health, and I like to think that by solving these problems you're actually helping people, in a way to contact, some of whom you may never meet, but that's okay. That's really what I like to do, I think, it's a way of connecting, I think.
Rob Collie (00:04:22):
We subtitled the show 'Data With The Human Element,' you think of the data field is like this cold, analytical, sanitary, and it's not, right? If you're doing it right, you're having an impact in the human plane, and it's a leveraged impact because you can really sort of touch a lot of people's lives via the central hub that is data. And you've got to keep the human beings in mind, even to be successful at the quote-on-quote "cold, calculating data stuff." If you don't keep the humans sort of first and foremost in your mind, you're not going to design, for example, a good data strategy, like what you just finished.
Jen Stirrup (00:05:02):
That's right. So I believe that the information ladder is quite important. So we start off with data, then we need to turn that into information, but then we need to turn it into knowledge and then wisdom. And I think COVID has taught us many things. I think it's maybe taught us a sense of purpose, it's something that can help drive all of us. Data can be part of that and I think that data in some ways has been replacing some of the bigger-purpose questions that perhaps we should ask ourselves more often as human beings. With artificial intelligence, particularly, I'm finding that people are replacing data with, perhaps, information, knowledge, or wisdom and say "what does the data see?" and that's fine, but we have to have the context to the data as well.
Jen Stirrup (00:05:47):
I think in some ways with artificial intelligence, what people are trying to do is build a little box of data and it's becoming this oracle that people are going to touch and say: "So, what does the data say?" It's like we are taking this box and we're trying to turn into some sort of God that we can touch, and it's going to give us all the answers, but if we're going to do that, it has to be a God that we are comfortable to live with, and it's one that we can choose, and one that fits in with people's ethics and their sense of purpose. So, I see data as part of fitting something that can make us all better in so many different ways, whether that is healing or bringing people together.
Jen Stirrup (00:06:29):
So I think if we could solve these problems where people are feeling that they are not interconnected, then we could start to try and look at that and perhaps think about making people feel whole and feel more together. Because I think what COVID has done is really helped us to focus a lot on data but perhaps not about how we could do things better. It seems that we have an opportunity to decide what goes back in to make the new normal or the next normal. And I'm worried I suppose that I don't see that happening as much as I would like. So yeah, data is important. Absolutely. We wouldn't be here without it and the fact people are struggling with it does pay my mortgage. I still would like us to ask ourselves the bigger questions as well as something that's important to me.
Rob Collie (00:07:14):
Let me check here. Oh yeah yup, it pays my mortgage as well. We're here for a reason that's for sure. I loved you talking about the AI, this box, that we're going to sort of elevate to the status of a God or that's how a lot of people are viewing it subconsciously. Of course, it's a box that we built.
Jen Stirrup (00:07:33):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:33):
We fed it with our context. It got fed with our assumptions and also our blind spots and now if it makes decisions, that thing starts making judgments and decisions that impact people's lives. It's a tricky proposition, it's one that's best approached very carefully.
Jen Stirrup (00:07:55):
I agree and I think that's why the bigger questions are important. So say for example, you may have seen the Netflix information series. It was called 'The Social Hack' or something like that. I've forgotten the name, but it was talking about the role of bias in data. One of the researchers found that their facial recognition algorithm didn't recognize a face. And the reason for that was that she's black and for me, I just thought, that's such a preventable issue and how much time do you spend looking at preventable issues? And perhaps not very much. I still see the magpie problem a lot in technology. Companies are happier buying a new technology that they see that's going to solve all their problems, but actually it's not doing that. It's maybe replacing as a bad answer to a different question. We can't see that right now in artificial intelligence.
Jen Stirrup (00:08:48):
There's some research going on, which will decrease the size of data sets that AI needs in order to create its algorithms and that sounds fine. It's a good piece of research, but what I'd like to see is more researches on collating datasets which are less biased, so that we can think about focusing and trying to make the algorithms fewer rather than focusing on making them smaller.
Jen Stirrup (00:09:13):
I know a few years ago, you probably remember, everyone talked about big data. Big data was the thing but we didn't ask ourselves if this was the right data. It might be big, but if it's missing out large sections of the population, then that's building an inequality before we get started. I think, even if you don't have the answers, asking these questions is a good thing. I don't have all the answers. There's people working in this field much much smarter than me and they all live and breathe this stuff and I read it, the things that they're doing and talking about, and I think this is such an important part of what we do every day. I think it's really important. I don't know what you think, but there's so much going on in the world of data at the moment that it feels hard to keep up sometimes.
Thomas Larock (00:09:58):
So first I want you both to remember in case you've forgotten, but you can purchase the Azure Data Box, that does exist.
Rob Collie (00:10:07):
We will just call it God in a box.
Thomas Larock (00:10:09):
Azure Data Box, it's actually for shipping storage to an Azure data center, but that's what they chose to call it and I said: "You put your data in the box or it gets the hose again." Right? So-
Rob Collie (00:10:20):
No no, Tom, it's one: "Put your data in the box."
Thomas Larock (00:10:26):
So, I mean, that does exist. The first point I wanted to make that you danced around, like Rob you were talking about how we're building this thing and it comes with all of our failings. And I know Jen, she leads discussions on diversity, inclusion, equality and I try to emphasize why that's so much more important and especially seeing the rise and I saw the Netflix special as well, and the Data Justice League. The idea is we need to have those programs in order to have better models. We have to be aware of the bias inherent in the stuff that has already been built. And I think there's a lot more awareness over the last 18 months regarding the products that are on the market that are already failing us because they were built with these biases. And that's a difficult thing to overcome now that you have police departments or governments deploying this technology, thinking, as Jen said, it's this God that is just going to give you all the answers.
Thomas Larock (00:11:35):
Jen, you also hinted on the thing about the question. So, you're replacing one problem with another, and that made me think of how vital it is that you understand the question you need answered and a lot of times that gets kind of shifted, it's fluid almost. It's like: "Oh, well we were doing this thing we think this next thing we'll solve for it." But the next thing you're getting is actually answering a completely different question than what you thought you were doing and it leads to a huge, huge disconnect. And I think the last thing I would say Jen, I've seen that research about the data sets. I'm encouraged by the idea that we could get people to understand that it's not the volume of data that makes a better model. It's the data that was chosen to be collected in the manner in which it's collected.
Thomas Larock (00:12:30):
So I know the research on building these models and they're saying: "Yeah, you don't need a billion rows. The accuracy tails off at some point after, say, a million rows." At some point more data doesn't make this model any more accurate but the inherent problem is how was it collected? What were the biases and how was it collected? What was missing? Was it missing at random? Was it missing not at random? The analysis necessary to conduct that research, I think is where we are sorely lacking in business. I know it exists in academia, but those people, they don't scale. There's only so many of those, and there's a lot more businesses trying to get the job done so I think that's fairly important.
Jen Stirrup (00:13:13):
There is a huge gap between academia and business. I guess there always has been, I do speak to academic institutions from time to time and it's clear that they are doing so much work. They really are, but how that is getting out? I am not sure. Maybe that's why they asked me to come and talk to them so I can talk to other people about what they're doing and I don't mind doing that. I think there needs to be more of that, because I think these scientists, these academics are working in this, have to get access to each other as well and the multidisciplinary aspect of it is really interesting. I did a Postgraduate in Cognitive Science about 20 years ago, and suddenly it's back round again, and it's about philosophy, linguistics, psychology, AI. And why did that go away?
Jen Stirrup (00:14:03):
It should never have really gone away. I think we got as an industry perhaps Goldstone and such technologies which these things were re-badged as, and we got derailed by the marketing efforts. But I think that there's real room for doing these things in a better way. I don't know if you see this, but I see, or maybe it's my age now, I've been around in the industry for a long time, but I see that people are doing and making mistakes that I first saw 20 years ago, data collection, which you rarely mentioned, Tom, that's been there for a long time and then it seemed to go away.
Jen Stirrup (00:14:36):
I think that's why academia does help because it gives us maybe more of that consistent backgrounds than perhaps we get from marketing noise, which was goes round in cycles and trends as people are under pressure to purchase these licenses or whatever it happens to be. I wish I had better answers for all of this, I think sometimes it's about just asking these questions, blogging, talking about them, putting them on social media so that when people are thinking, "what do I do about data strategy?" That these things are part of this. I saw a study recently saying that companies are decreasingly likely to include ethics and these questions and bigger societal questions as part of the data strategies as you're trying to get the link. But it disheartens me because I thought I could see that the voices are getting squeezed out.
Rob Collie (00:15:25):
Decreasingly likely, like we're trending-
Jen Stirrup (00:15:28):
Trending down.
Rob Collie (00:15:28):
You know, it'd be one thing to be flat, right? I mean that would also be disheartening, but to be decreasing, decreasingly likely to be factoring in ethics into a data strategy. Now we've been talking a lot and I think it's a good thing to continue to talk about the implications of AI and machine learning in this space, the business intelligence industry isn't particularly fraught with this kind of problem, right. Transactions happened, or they didn't, you know, and it was the number of six or a seven. I mean like, you can get it wrong, you can have bugs, right. But there isn't any like objective debate about what, there shouldn't be any way about what actually has happened. But the decider systems, are a completely different game, like where should we route this patient? This is going to have a huge impact on their life.
Rob Collie (00:16:21):
That's a very, very, very different game and we've been talking about sort of like, the completeness of the data that is used to train these systems, but I think it's really instructive just to stop for a moment and go, you know what, even if we were able to feed these systems a 100% comprehensive picture of today's world, we still have to accept the fact that we're telling it that today's world is what we want. Right. And maybe we don't, you know and there's always a judgment in training these systems, we tell it what is a success and what isn't a success. Our unintentional biases can leak into this stuff in a million different places, even if you suddenly had God-like comprehensive powers to feed it, quote-on-quote, all the data, right. It's still leaky. It's still fraught.
Jen Stirrup (00:17:13):
Yeah and actually, I think it's an extension of their problem that we see just when we're building a data warehouse. Sometimes I'll go into a customer and they'll say, "you know, we want to see our data and see our latest vendor here," and then I'll say, "well, is it preserving the data or is it just, you know, been reamed out the other end, what you're doing with it? Where you're storing it?" And then the argument against the data warehouse as well. It's not going to capture everything in the possible universe of possibilities in my business, so I don't want to do it. And I find the argument goes something like, "there's an edge case that it won't cover." Others, "this edge case, it won't cover here." And then you have to say, "well, you know okay. So it's not going to cover all the possible edge cases, but it will cover 80% of what you need, and the rest, can go to shadow IT or shadow data systems or wherever they happen to be."
Jen Stirrup (00:18:03):
And I think we're still trying as it's a bigger picture perhaps trying to control everything that happens around our business, but we have to be flexible enough to cater for these scenarios. We haven't seen this before. I think that's what makes the AI so difficult actually, as we have more than one type of AI, we have a general artificial intelligence, which is more like Terminator, you know, these kinds of things.
Rob Collie (00:18:29):
Innocuous stuff like that.
Thomas Larock (00:18:30):
Harmless. What's the worst that could happen.
Rob Collie (00:18:32):
Yeah. I mean.
Jen Stirrup (00:18:35):
Well, I think as humans, we do enough damage to ourselves, most of the time we don't need a Skynet.
Thomas Larock (00:18:38):
That's true. I agree. That's often my reaction to, well you know, like self-driving cars, like what if it makes this mistake? Okay yeah but the human being track record behind the wheel, we're not trying to be perfect, we're just trying to be better than people, which is a little bit more achievable perhaps.
Jen Stirrup (00:18:56):
Exactly and it's all a bit context, which is how to program. You probably remember a few years ago, at SQLBits say Tom, Steve Wozniak visited. I don't know if you were there for that SQLBits but Steve Wozniak is one of the team that founded apple. You must know who he is, but he's talked to us about the Wozniak test for AI, the testers will have an artificial intelligence sought of robot come into your house and make you a coffee from scratch. Now that involves a lot of contextual knowledge. They have to find your kitchen, they have to get your ingredients and get a cup, you know all that kind of thing and that requires context. And that's more general AI, that's more difficult to program. But if we're to think with CEI being more successful for businesses automation productivity, and it's just trying to do something, one thing really, really well, something that will help a human to make better decisions faster.
Jen Stirrup (00:19:51):
Such as perhaps parceling out x-rays, which don't show any presence of a tumor as an example, but we then get the 10% of x-rays that makes sure something and passing those onto a human to look at. So there's plenty of rooms for defining what success looks like for us for artificial intelligence I think. With business intelligence, your right, we should have one version of the truth. People are still living so much in Excel and Google sheets and things of empires away, and that are sitting in their laptop. How do you move that to the cloud? So you move them perhaps to office 365 or a Google work space, and then you're trying to encourage people to rethink the processes about, Hey why do we save stuff in the cloud? Or why do we make our decision making more apparent? And it seems a bit difficult to ask AI to make its decision-making more apparent, when actually a lot of people spend time hiding or umpiring the knowledge anyway.
Jen Stirrup (00:20:49):
I don't know if you think this, but I often think business intelligence problems are change management problems in disguise. It just happens to be showing up in the data that there's a problem.
Thomas Larock (00:20:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:20:59):
Ultimately it's not about knowing, it's about improving. Knowing that there's a problem and even knowing what's causing it is really just the beginning. Very often it's like okay, now what? This is going to be a really difficult problem to address operationally.
Jen Stirrup (00:21:16):
I think we forget the process of optimization and business intelligence. And I wonder if that's the reason why AI is becoming so prevalent at the moment, because it is much more clearly talking about optimizing and improving processes and automating. I think in business intelligence, we have almost stopped talking about optimizing business processes. I don't see it quite as much, I wonder if we get sort of caught up in data visualization, you know Tableau came along and then power BI and everyone started chasing after that. We're perhaps forgetting that actually we're doing all that for a purpose, which is to make something better somewhere. I don't know if you find this but, I obviously run [inaudible 00:21:54] business and it's very hard to get customers to agree to a case study because they don't want to show that actually they were in a bad place and they don't want to show the competitors that they were in a bad place. Everyone's ashamed of the data. So it's really tough.
Rob Collie (00:22:07):
I've seen sort of multiple facets of that. So first of all, yes, everyone thinks that they are uniquely broken, everyone's organization that they feel a level of sort of like discomfort and shame about where they're at today or where they were yesterday. They feel like they're the only ones, but we see so many organizations per year, especially the kinds of projects and the pace at which we move the world is very much uniformly broken. No one's really behind, everyone's way behind of where you'd sort of like as a dispassionate observer, you'd expect people to be a lot further ahead than they are, but no, no, really the basics are still not sorted out universally. We're still kind of in a dark age, in a way.
Jen Stirrup (00:22:51):
Yeah. Something, I see really basic issues of one customer example of talking about where they were calculating the mean incorrectly for two years. And then two years before that, for another two years, they were calculating the median incorrectly in Excel. What they were doing was it were taking the middle value of a column. So of course, if you sorted the column next to it, the value changed. And they said that that was the median. And I said, "okay, so you've got a column of 20 items. Are you telling me that whatever's a number 10 is the mean?" And they said, "well, yes, that's in column B." What happens if you change the order in column E from perhaps alphabetical order to reverse alphabet order, the values can be changed, right? And they looked at me and I said, "why did you calculate it like that?"
Jen Stirrup (00:23:41):
And they said, cause we can calculate the mean using Excel formula. So eventually I said, "why are you using the mean," because it's quite sensitive to outliers the median's better. and then they said, "well we've tried that but we couldn't calculate the median either." I said, so okay "for four years you've been trying to calculate the mean and the median incorrectly in this one spreadsheet. Can you tell me about the rest of your spreadsheets? How often are you trying to use the median or the mean all of it incorrectly?" And I think it's probably the only time in my 20 plus year career, I've seen a customer actually punch himself in the face and it was just absolutely stunning. And he said, "I'll go and speak to the statisticians." And I thought, you've got statisticians working here. I'd love to meet them.
Jen Stirrup (00:24:26):
I wonder what they're telling you. And that was my second deal in sight, I was on the on and off for six months. And that was just the first problem I found. So I know we talked about data literacy. I'm not a fan of that phrase. I prefer fluency or something along those lines. So I don't want to assume people are data illiterate. Because I don't think that they are, I think we're born naturally within us an innate sense of numbers in a way, we can tell more from less, right? My dog can do it, right. So if I got five treats in my hand, he knows I've got others. If I just give them one, he's not stupid, he has a sense of quantity. And I think it's about, we need to get better in industry, perhaps explaining results, findings, conclusions, and context to people instead of just throwing dashboards at people and expecting them to understand it.
Jen Stirrup (00:25:16):
If somebody recently sent me a scientific article which was all about COVID and some testing that they did in mice, and I could read it, but I couldn't understand it because I don't have a background in medicine. I read the abstracts and I read the last paragraph and the first paragraph, but I didn't read the rest of it because I thought this is way beyond me. I don't understand what they're trying to say. But I think for me that highlighted a problem with data literacy, I could read it, I couldn't understand it, and I certainly couldn't act on it. And I don't want to give other people who are trying to consume business intelligence products in some way, whether they're dashboards or even dumps from Excel, that they just don't understand what they're getting. How we do that, I think is perhaps focusing in data translation.
Jen Stirrup (00:26:03):
How we do that, I think, is perhaps focusing in data translation. I had a woman who worked for me, she actually was a qualified librarian. So, her insights about information retrieval were very interesting. I learned a lot from her, because that was a little bit the data. And she would say things like, "Jennifer, Google is not the only search facility in the world. We can use so much more," because she's accessed all their library systems around the world. And there's so much information we don't access because we can't, usually. But the point being that what I learned from her was about translating things, where they were easier to understand for other people. And I think it's an incredibly valuable lesson, and the world needs more librarians.
Rob Collie (00:26:43):
There's a lot here, right? Business intelligence was always a means to an end, but because it was so difficult, it was just so incredibly difficult to even get a halfway-competent system instilled, built, configured. When something is that hard for that long, it becomes its own goal after a while. It's easy to habituate to the idea that this is the goal, intelligence is the goal, knowledge is the goal. No, no, no. Improvement was always the goal. What's really been fascinating for us is, when we see our clients, the people we work with, when we see them start to get the BI problem under control for the first time ever, their gaze immediately sort of zooms back and they start thinking completely unbidden by us. We don't have to seed this conversation. It just happens. They start looking at the bigger picture now and going, "Oh, okay. So, now this information needs to feed into better decision loops and optimization and things like that. And how do we facilitate that?"
Rob Collie (00:27:53):
And from the beginning, we try to counsel everything being built around that "taking action" thing. You can build an incredibly informative dashboard that is intelligent, it's a work of art in many ways, on many levels, and it can be useless. It can be factual, it can be impressive, and it can be useless because you can't use it to make any improved decisions. I've been guilty of this. I have built things like this, like, "Ta-da." And the client doesn't even have the language to push back.
Jen Stirrup (00:28:30):
It's something I've tried to keep in mind now is the utility of what I'm actually doing, because people just want data for the sake of data, and they get that. I think, sometimes, they don't know what to ask for, so they take something because it's better than nothing. And they'll say things like, "Right, I want the last five years of data and 191 columns, I want it all on the same page, and I want to be able to print it." And then you have to say, "Well, let's think about how feasible that is. You'll get five years of data, it's not going to fit in one page. 191 columns is going to be really small. So, let's have a..." People ask that because they don't know what they want.
Jen Stirrup (00:29:06):
About a dashboard recently, a health and safety dashboard, it was using power apps as well. So, the company, if they saw a health and safety priority issue, they could use the app, if they were health and safety professionals, and the app would record data, you could upload a photograph, and then that would go into a system which you could then see in Power BI. And the nice thing about that was you could see improvements over time because people could get their health and safety issues resolved more quickly, so things like boxes stacked against fire exits, slip and trip hazards.
Jen Stirrup (00:29:43):
Now, it may not seem very interesting, but actually, the reason that project had happened was because someone that had been in a health and safety incident and it had not been tracked properly, and the idea being that they were trying to improve the process. But sometimes, I think data problems and data solutions happen because of two things. One is you need an executive sponsor, and the second thing is a crisis. And together, the executive sponsor and the crisis will engender change somewhere. And that change management process so often turns into a business intelligence solution. And nothing is an industry. It's something I'm personally trying to always keep in mind is: what's the purpose? What's the optimization? What problem am I trying to solve?
Rob Collie (00:30:30):
Yeah, one time, I was asked by a client to help debug a report that was really slow. So, this is great because this is an example of a report that I didn't build, right? I can use an example that wasn't one of my own families, but I'll tell my own as well if you want. But I go, "Okay, I'll take a look at it." I'm expecting some sort of DAX or data modeling problem or something like that. And they show me the report, and it is a 100,000-row pivot table. The pivot table has a 100,000 rows in it. There's DAX behind it. It's a DAX data model behind the scenes, but the report itself, the output is 100,000 rows. And before I even engage, I just turn and look at them and say, "Oh, my God, who was using this? You don't have a performance problem. It's..." And they're very insistent. "No, no, no, no, no. This is the thing. We need this." I'm like, "All right."
Rob Collie (00:31:21):
So, I start looking at it, and it's crazy how many columns there are. And it was a list of every employee and every location that they have in the country, which was hundreds of locations and thousands of employees. And for each employee, their scheduled time-in and their scheduled time-out, and their actual time clocked in and actual time clocked out. I turned back at him again and I go, "Okay, really? What are we doing here?" And they're like, "Okay. So, we have all these regional managers that are looking at this multiple times a day, probably eight times a day or more, to try to figure out if any of their stores are empty, aren't staffed because people didn't show up." And I just smacked my forehead and I go, "You don't need the timecard report," which is what they called this thing, the timecard report, "You need the empty store detector."
Rob Collie (00:32:18):
And I mean, there was no way to make this thing faster. I mean, this thing was such a gross misuse of technology. I just went to the whiteboard and I sketched what the empty store detector could look like, and they're like, "Oh, that's great. We'll never get our managers to switch over to using it, so let's just go back to fixing this other piece of junk."
Jen Stirrup (00:32:37):
Yeah, because something that I struggle with, personally, is the idea of surveyance reports. It's something that really bothers me. I've pushed back on a few customers to see, "Are you micromanaging or are you surveying? What is it you're trying to do?" On occasions, I have escalated it to say, "Look, this report is probably been used to hit people for the head, and I'm not comfortable with this because I think this has gone beyond micromanaging." And we had set the scope of the project of the thing we were supposed to deliver. So, I'm going to escalate this because I want to understand better the purpose. And if I'm wrong, we will deliver it."
Jen Stirrup (00:33:12):
And normally, when I go back and see that, even in that particular instance, I showed the senior management and I said, "Your middle management want to do this." And they said, "No. We are not spending time doing that. We need to understand the wider context. If there is any issues going on with staffing, then this is probably a symptom rather than the cause of the issues, if people are being watched like that." So, I think some teams escalating, as much as I don't like to do it, sometimes is the best way forward.
Rob Collie (00:33:44):
It takes a lot of professional courage to do something like that. For example, have you ever taken one of those principled stands and ended up no longer working for that client because they basically fire you for not staying in your lane? That's a risk, right?
Jen Stirrup (00:34:01):
Yeah. It is. I've never been fired for that, but I have said, "Uncomfortable, and I'm we going to stop delivering services, and we need to decide on an exit strategy." There's different ways you can do that, right? So, you deal with the current project. You then say that you're busy for the next century when we come back to you for other work. I don't like doing that because I often feel like you should give them an alternative to say, "Well, here. I can't deliver it, but I know someone who can." And then I recommend one to my network. But the thing is, when I make these quite principal stands, people back down often, or they back down and they just asked me to do it. But when I've gone back to people like that customer, who come back to me for extra work, I've done some investigating work and I've found that they have not implemented a thing that I've been worried about or concerned about.
Jen Stirrup (00:34:49):
So, I think, sometimes, if you do speak up, people are maybe surprised by it. It's maybe different who it comes from. And I think, perhaps, even a soft Scottish accent, smiling sweetly at them and saying, "Can you explain to me a bit more about the reasoning behind this? Because your team want to do this thing, but I have some discomfort because it's outside scope." And they're not telling them, and they're very direct. Wait at first, but they start to get their message.
Jen Stirrup (00:35:16):
A former boss of mine years ago, he said I had a soft rein approach. I actually think that's a nice way of putting it, where, as much as I might be tempted to go in all guns blazing, I'm trying to gently bring it up and then bring it up again a bit more firmly, and then, suddenly, people are starting to understand better. But that's me having to probably, sometimes, exert a huge amount of self-control as well. But I think that's part of the consulting game. It's very tough. But I think seeing something like that happen, I think the reason it happens is because people aren't thinking about it longer-term. And me as a consultant, it's easier, perhaps, for me to think about it long-term and also a bit more closely as well, because you are thinking about the consequences of what you're trying to do, the purpose.
Rob Collie (00:36:04):
Yeah. If you're good at data and you're experience with it, you spend a lot of time with it, that allows you to put some of those things a little further down in the subconscious, and the rest of your human faculties can resume working, whereas, I think, for people who data is still this arcane thing, it's not the thing that they've spent their lives with, it's just really easy to get target-fixated on the data, data, data, data, right? "It's not about the people, we're trying to figure out the data," right? "And inform me," and all of that.
Rob Collie (00:36:33):
And I think it's like when you're first learning to drive, I couldn't have the radio on. The radio was really distracting. And you certainly couldn't have a conversation with someone next to you. So, all you can do just to make sure that you're turning the wheel the right amount and all this kind of stuff. It's just overwhelming. But once you internalize all that stuff and you build the muscle memory and all those sorts of things, now your brain is free to do some other things. Like this data fluency thing we were talking about, it's neat how, as you climb that slope, you're never there, it's a perpetual journey, the other parts of the equation like the human things, right? They can come back.
Rob Collie (00:37:12):
An example, even just from our own business, we do a lot of internet advertising. And sometimes, when people at our company are thinking about this, now the wrong way to do it is to go and like, "Oh, let's go look at the ad words API and let's get fascinated by the tech around this." And I'm always trying to remind people that, no, no, no, we're trying to scale a human interaction. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to reach people with our humanity-
Jen Stirrup (00:37:43):
I think that's so true.
Rob Collie (00:37:43):
... and we're using a technological system to do that. It's a tool for the other thing.
Jen Stirrup (00:37:50):
You're so right. I think we should be using technology empower and enable. And I think my personal mission is about helping people. I find that rewarding, personally. I like things with a purpose, so that's why I do charity work with organizations like DataKind, because when you get someone crying because you've solved a problem for them and you've helped them, you know how incredibly grateful they are. But I think, for me, that's why diversity and inclusion, equality, and intersectionality more recently has become really important to me.
Jen Stirrup (00:38:21):
I'll just give you a few examples that's in my head. I did a project recently, and there was a woman of color in my team, and I felt that she was being talked over. I'm used to being talk over, softly spoken. But I could see it with her. And I just made a conscious effort to say, "I'm sorry, but I don't think she's had the opportunity to speak, and I can see she's tried to have some input." So, some of it's a bit like that. But some of it is directly saying, "What do you think? Sorry, we haven't heard from you," and pulling people out. And you know what? She was and is still incredibly insightful. And sometimes, the best data scientists I work with are people who can't code. And I think about her and I think about another woman of color as well that I work beside.
Jen Stirrup (00:39:06):
Fantastic data scientists, they both know Excel, but they can't write a line of code. And the reason they're so good is because they are such fantastic questions. That means the rest of us who can code have to then go and get the answers. And I think the knack of asking the right questions is such a gift, it's such a skill, and it's something that I am consciously trying to improve myself on. And I think diversity, inclusion, and equality is really important, but we wouldn't get anywhere with any of that if we're not allowing people space either to talk or we're not able to give them the space to ask the right questions.
Jen Stirrup (00:39:42):
Now, I am constantly learning every day. And to do that, I'm having to learn to get better at asking questions. And it is a skill to ask, but I think, when we're dealing with data, it's about helping people not to feel stupid if they're asking questions, because I think, with these particular cases, it's very easy to feel diminished in a conversation where other people are understand the technology, they can code, you can't, but you've got an insight. I know we talk about data-driven, but I like the term "insights-inspired," and I wish we had more of that because that, I think, gives us room for other people who perhaps don't understand the technology but do have business insights that I would never get, because they help me interpret the code or the data to make it better.
Thomas Larock (00:40:28):
So, you said data-driven, but you prefer insights-inspired. I think those are still two different things because, when I think of data-driven, I actually think of that in terms of, "I'm going to make a decision based upon what the data's telling me, not upon my feelings." The insights-inspired, to me, is how I get to the question I want answered, right? But I'm still data-driven. I think there's some overlap, but I also think there's a lot of space there where they are distinct, because I do believe in data-driven because I've been in those meetings where somebody's like, "Yeah, I don't really care. We're going to do what I think is right." "But the data says something completely opposite." "Yeah. That doesn't matter to me." And lots of those cultures exist. I love insights-inspired, and I'm going to steal that.
Jen Stirrup (00:41:16):
That's fine. I think we need both, actually. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. But you're right, there is a good impetus for people to think, "What does the data say?" And I like that. I think the "insights-inspired" piece will help us to understand if the data's right. And I'll give you an example of something that I did. So, I was doing some work for the national health service and there's some data missing for a hospital, and it was not an insignificant amount of data. It was for about five years, the data. And I searched for it all morning, and I was just about to ,arch down the corridor to go and corral a DBA to ask him, Have we lost any data? Because I cannot find this."
Jen Stirrup (00:41:55):
And then, when [inaudible 00:41:56] was passing, she said, "How are you doing?" I said, "Oh, have you ever worked at this hospital?" I won't mention which one it is. And she said, "Oh, I was there until it closed for five years and it merged with another hospital." And I thought, "Oh, you've just answered my question. Right." Because I was sweating beads because I thought, "We've lost five years' worth of data." And I thought, "We've done that. We are in so much trouble," because it's a lot of data. It's a lot of patient data. No, no, no, no. They went somewhere else. And there was a very good explanation that I would never have got by the data. I could have hugged her.
Jen Stirrup (00:42:31):
And to this day, I still feel the palpable relief, because I was walking in the hospital, thinking we need a really good explanation for this. But according to the data, it was not there. So, I think, when I look at data-driven, I think they're two sides of the same coin, because insights will tell you what the nurse said, "Well, actually, it's like this," and they will add to the interpretation.
Jen Stirrup (00:42:54):
I just sat in a meeting once where one of the leaders said, "All right. So, we've got the data now?" I said, "Yes, everything's fine." And in front of four of his team members, he said, "So, we can get rid of the business analysts then, because we've got the data now." And even when I mention this, I still, at this point, feel my blood pressure rising, which is not good for me. I am well over the age of 40. And actually, I was stunned. I said, "How are you going to understand the data if you don't have your business analysts. Who's going to tell you what it means? "Oh." I said, "Are you really thinking that you can just throw your data at a wall, see what sticks, see what's left, and that's going to drive a business? Because, pretty much, that's what you're doing, if you are not involving the people who understand the business."
Jen Stirrup (00:43:43):
And after the meeting, I mean, some of them were crying, saying, "He was talking about me losing my job." And the people impact was terrible. So, this is where I've got my principals coming in. So, I went and I escalated that afternoon, and he was taken off the project the next day. That was due to happen. That was just outrageous. And if any of you who are listening and this is you, I love that team, their insights were incredible and I learned so much from them. And to the leader in that organization, please listen to your team members. You will get so many many great insights.
Rob Collie (00:44:23):
Wow.
Jen Stirrup (00:44:24):
Sorry, this is very cathartic for me. I'm glad you've brought me on today.
Rob Collie (00:44:33):
I mean, just watching your face as you told that story, I can see the emotions that you're feeling, right?
Jen Stirrup (00:44:37):
He's going to get this.
Rob Collie (00:44:38):
And it's a mix, right? It's a mix of the beauty of some of these people that you worked with, right? Contrasting with like this horrible, horrible attitude, at the same time, from this one individual. When you have all those feelings at the same time, it's like you need a new name for it. It's like, "What is this feeling?"
Jen Stirrup (00:44:56):
And I think the industry is like a pendulum, so we go towards data-driven. And for some organizations, they need good data-driven, so Tom's given a great example. But sometimes, it goes too far and they say, "Yeah, I read that buzzword. I'm going to do that." And then, there's an expense, something has to give. And that, unfortunately, was his team. Like you said earlier, Rob, it's about the people. We should be there to help people by helping people do their jobs better, not necessarily replacing them. That was not ever on the menu.
Rob Collie (00:45:29):
Yeah. It's counterintuitive. Sometimes, when your data system gets better, the right move is to have more analysts because there's more ROI in having them. Even just hiring a data professional services firm such as yourself, the reason to do it is because the ROI can be massive.
Jen Stirrup (00:45:51):
Yes. There's lots of unseen costs. I worked with an accountant last year who spent four out of five days a week merging Excel together. And I sat with her, I got to know her pretty well, I mean, remotely because of COVID. And eventually, she said, "Oh, I'm looking for a new job." And I said, "Oh, really?" And she said, "I did not incur a graduate debt to sit and do something that I could have done without my degree." She'd put a lot of effort and, same in the US, lots of student loans to do a degree. And she said, "Technically, my job title is accountant, but I'm not accounting. I am munging data around in Excel." And one of the projects I had recommended was data integration, right? And they wouldn't go forward it. They kept saying, "No, no, no. We've always done it this way. So-and-so om accounts does all that." But they never asked her what she wanted.
Jen Stirrup (00:46:43):
So, she left, and I was not a bit surprised because she said, "I want to be an accountant. I want to account." And I know that it's not my personal lifestyle. It wouldn't be my choice of a job, but for her, she just loved that, and she wasn't getting to do. So, sometimes, the causes are quite unseen if you're not looking after the processes or the data, because that incurs hiring costs, then, on staff onboarding costs that don't get included often as part of these business strategy projects. When I'm doing a data strategy, I try to include them, to say, "But what happens if you change? But what happens if you don't?" And you're going to lose people because your people, very often, want to be skilled in the later technology.
Jen Stirrup (00:47:25):
And I'll give you an example. One customer I worked with said to me, "We need your help with reporting services, SQL server." So, "Okay, good. I like reporting services." Then, they talked to me and I said, "What version are you using?" And they said, "2005." And I said, "Why?" "Because the application that's using it requires SQL server 2005 and we can't upgrade." Said, "So, what was the application written in?" "VB6," which you may have heard of that technology. It was around in 1999. It was last century. So, the data state was antique. I had no idea that it was that bad. But then, the application came up, and Microsoft still do a version of a Visual Basic. You can go to the site, the latest version... But the point being that the staff and that place had settled for VB6, they'd settled for 2005. That doesn't mean that you're getting the best team members. And when we worked, it was recommended an architecture. Said it was not touching it with our [inaudible 00:48:30].
Rob Collie (00:48:30):
I'm still very fluent in VBA6, so maybe after we finished this show, can you give me the information of this organization? I might go apply. The last place on earth that VBA6 fluency is... Actually, that's not true. It's still being used everywhere. It's just not being used centrally.
Jen Stirrup (00:48:53):
Yes. I did say to them, "I am not touching any software that was not built in this century. So, if it's in the last century, you've no chance." So, re-architected, actually, we're using the Azure Cosmos...
Thomas Larock (00:49:04):
It's a good rule.
Jen Stirrup (00:49:05):
... and dot... Yeah, it's a good rule. It's a rule to live by, you can quote me on that. I use no software built in the last century. In fact, I'm going to make that my new company advertising strapline. That's great. I like that. So, they're happily in Cosmos and .NET. And we used that because the developer said, "Hey, does that mean we get to modernize?" I said, "Yes. And you will either modernize or I will leave. Your bosses are going to have to modernize." So, they did. But again, that soft Scottish accent comes up. "Well, why don't we use software that's built in this century?"
Rob Collie (00:49:42):
It's a devastating maneuver. If we were making a card for you in a trading card game, that would be one of your two power moves, right? Soft Scottish accent. And the description of the power is something like, "Removes all defensive screen cards from opponent."
Thomas Larock (00:50:07):
Disarming.
Jen Stirrup (00:50:10):
Absolutely. Yeah. It's just funny how the data problems are really throwing up what's wrong with the organization. Obviously, they did that, but two years ago, I went to visit them again, just before COVID last year. They'd implemented a data science team and they just wanted some strategic consulting. And I was really pleased with how they turned around. So, sometimes, if you just find a problem like that, a small success, building those small successes, and they were allowed to up. I don't know if you see this, but big thing of what I'm doing when I'm in organizations is change management, but also a lot of that's people. And people tend to align themselves with success. So, if you can just show one small success, people get on board with it.
Rob Collie (00:50:53):
Yeah. I mean, it's everywhere in humanity, right? We're fundamentally pattern-matchers. And if you haven't given a population any positive patterns to match, no examples, it's amazing how stuck you can be. But one success, right? We have an infinite percentage increase in our population of successful examples. We went from zero to one. Like you say, the dog knows that there's five treats in your hand, right? We're not dumb. If there can be one success, there can be more. But if there's zero successes, that's powerful.
Jen Stirrup (00:51:25):
Yeah. And I don't know if you see this problem, but it's something I see a lot is people think maybe Tableau or Power BI, they buy this, it's going to give them a success. And it does, until the data starts to get hard. And then they either have to scale up in DAX, which is fine, but sometimes they don't have room or bandwidth to do that, so they get almost a bit depleted because they realize, actually, data's hard. We've never really nailed data as the human race.
Rob Collie (00:51:55):
It's always hard. Unfortunately, to sell software, to a certain extent, you have to sell the lie. If you're a software vendor, you have to se...
Rob Collie (00:52:03):
... have to sell the lie. If you're a software vendor, you have to sell the lie that this tool is the magic fix, that it's going to make data easy. And I do actually, in a weird way, I kind of like blame Tableau for making this worse, but while at the same time, being very grateful to Tableau that they made interactivity a must have.
Jen Stirrup (00:52:24):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:52:24):
I think they were actually, more than any one entity, responsible for us breaking this notion that reporting services and similar tools were it.
Jen Stirrup (00:52:34):
Yes. I remember the first time I saw Tableau. I had been hired as a developer for SQL server [inaudible 00:52:40] services and my boss said, "I think this is a future, this stuff, Tableau. Here's the download link. Tell me what you think". 10 minutes I was completely hooked and it changed my career because otherwise I would have probably stayed in the database reporting world and I suddenly thought there's a whole world here with stuff. So I love what they did. I really, really think it was groundbreaking.
Thomas Larock (00:53:01):
At what point did a report just become synonymous with the word "Tableau"? I have a limited experience and maybe it's an outlier, but to me, I always hear people say, "I'm going to run a Tableau report". I mean, it's just a report. I worked with Crystal and BusinessObjects, same thing I guess. And do people always qualify the type of report they're running as if that makes it more special or do people always say, "I'm going to run a power BI report"? Why is it always a qualifier? And in my case, I always hear, "I'm going to go run the Tableau report". I'm like, "It's just a report. It doesn't really matter what's the software that's doing it. It's just data. It's just a report". But I hear that a lot. I just figured I'd ask you two if that's the same experience?
Jen Stirrup (00:53:43):
Yeah. I think I'm hearing that more and more and I actually think it's almost going the other way, where people are only wanting interactivity, they're only wanting things they can click and tick. And what they're not wanting as much is a SQL server, mahogany red, forest green, slate gray, corporate template, because that was the what, about four templates you got with reporting services. So I see that more and more apart from the finance world. They still very much want it. But what I'd still see is a big need for tables. People still want to export to Excel. And I think it was you, Rob, who actually said this years ago, that the third most common button in Tableau is something like "export to CSV".
Thomas Larock (00:54:26):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:54:28):
Yeah. The third most common button in any data application is "export to Excel".
Thomas Larock (00:54:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:54:32):
Behind "OK" and "Cancel". That's the joke. And what it is, is an acknowledgement of, again, the human plane that this report, this app, does not meet your needs. It's in a way like if you could instrument your organization and find all of the "export to Excel" buttons that are being worn out, those are like the hotspots for you to go and improve things. That button being, click, click, click, click, click, click, click all day long, is telling you that there's a tremendous opportunity for improvement here, both in terms of time saved, but also quality of result. Quality of question that's even formulated. You mentioned questions earlier, asking good questions. Here's the problem. The ability to execute on answers and the inability to execute on answers, the friction, the inertia, that works its way upstream into the question- forming muscles. The question-forming muscles atrophy to a level where they fit the ability to execute on the questions. And so when you suddenly expand the ability to answer questions, it actually... You've got to go back and re-expand your question-asking muscles to be more aggressive, to be more ambitious.
Jen Stirrup (00:55:52):
Yes. I think sometimes the data-driven piece is trying to, in a way, subtly bring that back into play. It's okay to admit that we don't have all the answers and it's okay to admit that we need to ask questions. I think there should be more of that. Something that, certainly earlier in my career, asking questions was discouraged. It meant you didn't know it. It meant that you were vulnerable in some way. And I think as an industry, we need to encourage people to ask questions. I think with the diversity inclusion piece, try and make a conscious effort. If I think someone in the meeting is being quiet, regardless of the background, but at least I'm trying to watch out for that now, whereas maybe 20 years ago, I wouldn't have realized it, but sometimes people do sometimes need that extra help to speak up and speak out. They often don't know what to say or how to beckon to a meeting and say something. It's quite difficult.
Jen Stirrup (00:56:51):
Especially if you were being measured in your performance. I think sometimes people see things very confidently. And actually when you start to pick it apart, you think, "I need to as a person, stop believe in confidence and maybe thinking is that right, not how it's being delivered". I think they're stolen for quiet voices, hopefully like mine, who are trying to say things but I do find that harder to get heard. I think it's good that you do podcasts like this because I think it gives people the opportunity to talk about different ideas and how they impact people because that is important. There's loads of vendor podcasts that will talk all about the technology but we need to know better how to apply it.
Rob Collie (00:57:31):
When we were talking about starting this show, it was pretty clear we did not need another tech show. People who are working in tech, but are human beings, like yourself, and who are focused on helping other human beings. We weren't sure if it was going to work. It was one of those like, "Are people are going to listen?".
Thomas Larock (00:57:45):
We're still not sure.
Rob Collie (00:57:50):
We knew that we were going to like it, but yeah, it's building an audience. I've enjoyed it. And plus, it's an excuse to get together and talk with people such as yourself. If we just pinged you out of the blue and said, "Hey, you want to get on a two hour Zoom call with us and just catch up?". That's going to get pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed, but, "Oh a podcast? Oh, well, yeah. That's exciting".
Jen Stirrup (00:58:14):
Yeah. I know what you mean. It's good to, I think, to try and translate data and technology into something people feel is within their reach because I think there is still an element of people who are almost being scared of working with data. I deal a lot with CTO's, CIO. I was busy CTO and some way reports sent to their CFO because their CFO is over all of it, keeping costs down. The CTO has to work really hard to justify them. And I think what they want, ultimately, is not to appear stupid or not to know what they're doing. So some of these leadership conversations I have are about people saying, "Explain these terms to me. I don't know what a data lakehouse is. Do I need one? How's it different from a data lake? What about the warehouse? Is that going away or is that rebranded as well?". I know Microsoft talked about data hubs recently. If you're a data vault person, a data hub means something quite specific. It's been a term around for 30 years to mean something else. But I think sometimes people get very confused with the terms.
Rob Collie (00:59:16):
Like for example, the noun "dashboard" in Power BI, right? It's just a head clutching frustrating mistake. I mean a Power BI report is probably best described as a dashboard. The multi-visual, interactive experience, lowercase D dashboard is what I always want to describe it as, but no, no, no, no. We repurposed that word.
Jen Stirrup (00:59:41):
I know, and customers don't always understand it because they say, "Well, actually my report looks exactly like the dashboard. So I don't understand this publishing thing". So I have to try and explain that actually, we can take data from [inaudible 00:59:55] here and you can extra things. I'm interested to know actually, how much Power BI users spend actually making dashboards as opposed to making reports. And I just wish we'd ever the answer to that because sometimes you just want to get reports that they can run in their desktop or not always sometimes use a browser and just have the reports and have them open on the actual dashboards higher up. So I feel that's a bit of a separation that maybe wasn't required to have. But Tableau does something similar, doesn't it in a way? But I think with Tableau, it's a bit more clear that you're putting these things together.
Rob Collie (01:00:29):
Well, we were talking at the beginning about the importance of comprehensive training sets. Well, let me just tell you, we only need one data point here. I, as a Power BI user, have never once created an actual Power BI dashboard. So let's just conclude that that's it. No one uses them. But yeah, I've never felt compelled to need one. I tend to put together, what I need in the report.
Jen Stirrup (01:00:56):
Yes. And that's what I do because I'm trying to get the customer from A to B. I'm trying to do it quickly and I can see that they've reached on that tool ceiling of where they want to go and then they've got this other thing they need to do and they don't understand why. So sometimes it's a battle I just don't have because I just think, "You know what? These often been through so much to get to that point in the first place, cleaning data and getting access to the data and all the things that are hard and even understanding what they want in the first place". I try and work out where the fatigue is.
Rob Collie (01:01:28):
Yeah. I think there's a certain hubris just in the idea that a user will go around and then harvest little chunks out of other reports and take them completely out of context. Anyway, we didn't come here for cynicism today but-
Jen Stirrup (01:01:43):
I have plenty of that.
Rob Collie (01:01:43):
But it's still there. We can't really help it. So it's come up a few times and I want to make sure we actually make some time to talk about it specifically. So you've mentioned a number of times, inclusion and diversity and already a few anecdotes within your own professional organization, within your own firm. Outside of your own data relish organization, what are you up to in this space around the diversity and inclusion as a cause? You're very active in the community in this regard. Can you summarize for us what all you're up to?
Jen Stirrup (01:02:15):
Yeah. I've started there to talk more about intersectionality. There's a lot of data, which I don't have to hand, which is terrible, that shows that it's the intersection of people's lived experiences that can sometimes work together against that person. So for example, we know that women are paid less than men, and regardless of the stats that we use, that's the number that comes up. There is some data that talks about how for black women, it's even less and for Latin women, it's even less again. So the idea being that, for people of certain ethnicities and backgrounds, it's interacting with the fact that their background, their ethnicity, their race is interacting with the fact that they're female, and both of these characteristics together are interacting to produce an adverse outcome for the individual.
Jen Stirrup (01:03:06):
Now this is quite an interesting area, is something that's been part of academic research for about 30 years. And there's some great researchers out there that talk about this. I want to say [Christy Reynolds 01:03:18], but I need to double check that surname because I'm not very good with names. It's age. Which is another characteristic as well. I was called an interfering old bag by somebody.
Rob Collie (01:03:29):
What?
Jen Stirrup (01:03:30):
I thought was really funny. There was a community person. I don't know if they realized it would get back to me. And I said, "Okay, so diversity and inclusion, obviously it's there with the bag aspects, but old as well. Okay. Thank you very much".
Rob Collie (01:03:41):
Great.
Jen Stirrup (01:03:43):
And yes, I am interfering. You know I am.
Rob Collie (01:03:46):
Triple word score.
Jen Stirrup (01:03:50):
Exactly, and it's... For me, I just thought, "Okay, so it fits". It was actually somebody I know that said that behind my back and they told somebody else and they said, "So-and-so has said this about you'll and I said, " Okay, that's fine. I am interfering, absolutely. If I see something I don't like, I can realize that being a staunch supporter of certain initiatives, of causes, can make me appear interfering". If I feel strongly about something, I will speak out and that can be cast fairly quickly into, "She's interfering again. Who is she? She's an old bag". So I think that phrase for me, made think about those two things. One is my age. I'm 48.
Jen Stirrup (01:04:28):
So there's that and female as well. I thought whatever I was interfering about, does it matter if I was right or not? Because whatever I was interfering about has got lost somewhere and it's got lost in the fact that my other characteristics were brought up as well, rather than seeing, "Well, actually Jennifer is wrong about something", which I could have accepted, I think. If someone had said, "Actually, you've got that wrong", I would rather know that, because then I can rethink or change my mind or perhaps give an explanation and then it turns into an adult conversation then, rather than back and forth. Which I don't want to do, I am not interested. So I didn't engage with the individual. I thought, "I can't change your mind, because if you're just going to bring up my age and my gender, I'm not getting a good starting point. Maybe you need to listen to someone else and see what they think".
Rob Collie (01:05:22):
How do you achieve that peace? I'm sorry to interrupt, but that's just killing me. How have you reached the point or have you always been like this? Teach me. Can you teach me that peace?
Jen Stirrup (01:05:35):
I think I got to the point of fatigue actually, where I realized that no matter what I said or did, there was always going to be haters who would always cast whatever I said or did in a bad light, and it doesn't matter what I do or say, that will be twisted. Someone wrote me a piece of hate mail recently on Instagram, which said about, "You said something about this blog post, about this person", and I said, "No, I didn't". And then I thought, "Should I go back and ask them what was I supposed to have said and who about?".
Jen Stirrup (01:06:05):
In the end I just wrote, "Thank you very much for getting in touch. I appreciate it and I think we need to close the conversation here". And I just left it because I thought, "Actually, I don't know what's going on, but whatever it is, I'm going to lose". And I think maybe I did start to lose in some ways, because I thought I am just going to lose and I can keep being dragged around by other people and it's spending energy. I don't know if you've ever read The Art of War?
Rob Collie (01:06:31):
I have. Summaries of it anyway. I'm not sure that I've read the whole thing, but it's not very long, is it?
Jen Stirrup (01:06:36):
It's not very long and there's a bit in it that really speaks to me. It's the bit about... So obviously about war, but it talks about strategy and it says that you should regard your enemies... stand back from them and regard them as a boulder rolling down a hill, and if you stand back, they will eventually run out of energy because there's going to keep rolling. And the whole point about you as that strategy person or a tactician, is that it's all about timing and it's spending energy. And I realized actually, the best thing I can do for myself is be very careful in how I spend my energy and be very careful about my timing. So I think I've been trying to ignore stuff online for quite some time. I'm not going to pretend it hasn't been challenging or that it hasn't been a hurtful. It's been both of those things.
Jen Stirrup (01:07:23):
And I think that, because it would speak out a refute to do anything, people tend to believe bad things and they just think, "Where did all of this come from?". I've come to the conclusion as well that I think we talk a bit about mental health in the tech community. I think that people are struggling and have sort of come to the conclusion that some people who are throwing stones and things are actually not in a good place, because if you're a happy person you're not behaving like that.
Jen Stirrup (01:07:50):
I'm not seeing people are mentally ill, and even if it was, it's not a bad thing to be a mentally ill or have mental health issues. That's not what I think, it's not what I mean. I just think it's coming back to asking questions again and timing to say, "Actually, I'm going to stop behaving like that because that's not a normal or proportionate way to behave, and I have to perhaps seek some help from the right person. Whether that's a friend who's going to give me a very honest answer or perhaps stepping outside my echo chamber or my [inaudible 01:08:22] chorus, so that I get different perspective".
Jen Stirrup (01:08:25):
And as humans we like to flock together in terms of who we like, and also we go off into groups, perhaps through a shared interest and that for a community, and that's a good thing. But sometimes it's a bad thing. It's something I should probably mention before. I've been speaking to the police for a long time, telling them about online harassment, because some of it is really unpleasant and some of it I have had to report to the police. I've been dealing with the London Metropolitan Police and [inaudible 01:08:52]. We all have. I've handed them access to things like my Facebook account so that they can see some of the stuff I am being sent. I don't mean people seeing my Facebook messages. They are deadly dull and boring. I do not live an interesting life. It tends to be things like, "What would you like me to bring you back from the shops?".
Jen Stirrup (01:09:12):
And what I have found is that there's much more sympathy for victims of online bullying than there used to be, and it's too much to the point. I've speaking much more closely and going through a sort of community resolution process at the moment with someone. I don't know who they are due to protection. Isn't telling you that. But I have been speaking to the police where someone has been caught, questioned, and they're going to write me a letter of apology. And I think that is going to be tremendously huge for me, because all I want is an apology that it's just not going to happen again to me or to anyone else. So sometimes speaking up and speaking out, you don't see results right away, but sometimes if you stick at it, collect the data, collect the evidence, speak to the right people, sometimes you can get a result.
Jen Stirrup (01:09:59):
In the minute I feel full of nervous energy about it. I'm not pleased yet because I think it's going to take some time to uncoil from all of that. But I think the point I'd like to make is, when people are seeing things by other people online, there are consequences for the victim, but to also see that for them personally, there can be consequences as well. You know so somebody has now to spend time in the police station, which is taking them away from their work, they have to explain to the family, that kind of thing. So I think what I'd like to see in the tech community is more proportion, a sense of proportion. If I have upset somebody, they need to talk to me directly. I will hear them out and if an apology's due then yes, absolutely I would give someone an apology.
Jen Stirrup (01:10:44):
I had to apologize to someone a few weeks ago. I said something that inadvertently offended somebody. I had no idea. I was very upset about it and I learned how that had been taken and wrote them an apology in Facebook actually, which they accepted. But I wanted to give them the opportunity to say their peace and I talk a lot about people speaking up and speaking out, and I need to take it when other people take the time to speak up and speak out against me as well. And I did the right thing and I learned something about how something came across. I'm really actually grateful that they took the time to do that.
Rob Collie (01:11:17):
Just hearing you say these things live, it brings it home viscerally in a way that really no other medium does it. It's the cliche now in this increasingly hyperpolarized world, there are people quote unquote, on your side of these issues who are incredibly combative, unfriendly, non listening, right? There's people on both sides, right? That are like this. I'm not saying like, "Oh, it's the inclusion and diversity people that are so terrible". We've got those people everywhere, but it's just so hard to imagine talking to you, anyone characterizing you as a villain. It's just jaw-dropping. If I disagreed with you on every single thing in the world, I still... there's no way that I couldn't get along with you.
Jen Stirrup (01:12:07):
Thank you.
Rob Collie (01:12:11):
I really, really, really don't get it.
Jen Stirrup (01:12:13):
I think some of it is perception and some of its proportion. I think, as I've got older and I'm divorced... I've been through a bad divorce, and I think it had been true so much in some ways that I've suddenly developed a lot more empathy. And I think maybe you develop more empathy as you get older. So maybe it's that. Maybe if you spoke to 22 year old me, you would find a very different person because I am opinionated about lots of things and I do interfere, but I think maybe I've just got to learn a better balance between knowing when people don't want to hear it anymore. And me realizing that actually, you do need to speak up and speak out but when does that stop? I've been thinking more about this in the past few days actually. You can speak up and speak out, but maybe at some point I have to get better at understanding some people are just not going to listen.
Jen Stirrup (01:13:05):
And then that comes back to your previous question. How do you walk away from that? And I think you kind of have to, to protect yourself and maybe think about family members who are affected by seeing you upset. I think the community needs a lot of healing. I think past is appearing is not below any healing and I think [inaudible 01:13:24] over topics which are maybe not constructive and going to help anyone, is going to help. But I'm happy to talk about things like diversity inclusion, intersection and equality and inequality where people feel that perhaps there's something they could apply or maybe help them to think. And I should add that I am learning about these things all the time, and I can and I do get it wrong because I talk and ask questions with people because I am learning. And I'm very fortunate that people have been quite patient with me I think.
Rob Collie (01:13:55):
I just want to, almost sarcastically, go, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're on the internet now. What is this humility and 'maybe I don't have all the answers'-stance? Like you can't do that. You've got to go out there and just bluff that you know everything and you don't understand why everyone else can't figure out something so simple". It's so easy on the internet to curate one's own profile. When you're up close and personal with someone, it's hard to hold it together. The human flaws that we all carry, they just kind of leak out if you're in the vicinity of each other and you're watching closely and if you're like working together in person or whatever on a daily basis. But if you're an internet personality or just really honestly, like everyone is becoming an internet personality in some way, right?
Rob Collie (01:14:45):
If you have a social media account, you have the opportunity to start broadcasting to the world a curated picture of your life. That's very, very, very seductive. Like, "Ooh, I can put out there only what I want people to see". You don't even need to consciously think about it. And then you get all these examples of other people who are doing it. It's almost like the prisoner's dilemma, right? If everyone else is doing it, but the thing is, you don't know that they're doing it, right? You see all these people that appear to be so together and so you need to go out there. The pressure to go out there and be the same, pretending that you have it all figured out, is super high. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and say, "Yeah, I'm figuring this out. Work in progress".
Jen Stirrup (01:15:28):
Yeah. I'd rather give an answer that's got integrity than pretended expertise I don't really have. I wish I had better answers. And maybe if you ask me in a year, I might have changed my mind. I think people are in a bad place in many ways and I've tried to be more thoughtful about actually maybe people are not accessing or getting the support and help that they need and that is coming out online. And maybe you just need a bigger sense of proportion that I don't think we get online on social media.
Rob Collie (01:15:55):
When there's an audience, everything gets orders of magnitude more toxic. For a while there, at a point in my life, operating my blog was a big part of my professional existence. I would get trolls that would come and attack out of left field for assuming just sometimes like incredibly bizarre reasons that you wouldn't even understand. I had a guy emailing my manager. They had tracked down who my manager was at Microsoft because I was still working there at the time and was emailing him that I had done something like I had not done at all. Like, it was crazy. He thought I hacked his PayPal or something. It was just totally out of the blue. He wasn't part of this tech community at all, right? That's the most egregious example, but I had an amazing, in the end, like an amazing track record turning these trolls.
Rob Collie (01:16:39):
Engage with them one-on-one privately behind the scenes and don't lead off with a punch. Lead off with, "Hey, hey, hey. What's what's up here?". And it was amazing. My expectation going into all these interactions was that this person is just unhinged, you know? And they turned into great people. I think like 9 out of 10... I think there was like one that didn't out of all the top 10 trolls from my history of operating the blog, nine of them turned into people that if I'm in their city, I'm going to say hi to them.
Jen Stirrup (01:17:09):
That's nice. I think you can try and give people an opportunity, but I think the other side of it is me thinking I have to look after my own mental health too. And I think it's better just to say, "Hey. My email address is online. I'm here on LinkedIn. There's always lot's of ways to get in touch with me. You can come and talk to me, I know". And I think maybe as you get older, you're better at picking your battles. Maybe it's a bit of that.
Rob Collie (01:17:34):
Yeah.
Jen Stirrup (01:17:34):
So I wish a [inaudible 01:17:37] face for people who are going through that. I've just decided just to screenshot, block and move on. And I feel that every blog post right now, I have to preface it with "This is not about aimed at any individual. This is just some observations about intersectionality". So I've got a blog that I need to publish about that and the last paragraph is about, " I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to highlight an issue that-"
Jen Stirrup (01:18:03):
I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just trying to highlight an issue that is our various characteristics interact, and it's something that for me talk about diversity and inclusion, we focus on women in tech. And not that that's not a normal thing, because as it tends focus on white women in tech, and I'd like to see a mixture, women of color included as well. And a woman of color wrote to me last week, she said, "I'd like to share some of my experiences with you because women in tech is not including women of color." And I've actually got a meeting with her next week. I don't know what I can do or say, but I'm going to hopefully use it as a learning experience. It's not that I've said anything bad. She just said, "We're not talking about enough about women of color." And I feel it's probably fair, and I think it's important message.
Thomas Larock (01:18:52):
So I want to make sure, Jen, that you understand that I want to thank you for interfering. That's an important role that we all have to play at times. It's one thing if you're just always interfering for the sake of interfering, but when you see that interference is necessary to advance, to make something better for everyone, at the end of the day, we should all be looking to just simply do good things for ourselves, but for each other. So sometimes that interference is necessary. And I know you and I have interfered with things and tried to get things to a better place, and it's necessary and I don't want you to feel that you should stop or that you're not supported. If you ever need a pick me up, just call me and Rob, we'll spend a couple hours telling you how great you are.
Jen Stirrup (01:19:41):
Thank you.
Thomas Larock (01:19:41):
But interfering is necessary. The thing about the online, like Rob was talking about, I wanted to say to Rob, I think part of it is that when you're online, there's a tendency to feel seen. And what I mean is if I make a comment, and I've learned this over specifically the last five to six years, if I just make some comments about a behavior that I've witnessed that I think is bad, inevitably somebody online thinks I am talking about them, specifically. Like you probably think this tweet is about you, don't you? And it's true. I can track things out. You've had those trolls and I've had my share of trolls and abusers. And inevitably it always comes down. I feel you're speaking to me about this and therefore I'm going to stand up for myself. And I'm like, "How did we get to that point where you see something online and you think that person must be talking about you?" If that's the case, then you need to do some inward reflection about what you're doing instead of attacking the person for calling out a bad behavior. But anyway ...
Rob Collie (01:20:51):
It's like the old joke, if you go to work every day and there's like one or two assholes you run into, that's just normal. But if you go to work every and everybody's an asshole, you're the asshole.
Jen Stirrup (01:21:00):
I think it's a mix of confirmation biases. We've got these sort of bases in our heads. One is I want to say Dunning-Kruger, but I don't think that's right. And where we think we know more about something that we do. And the think there's a related bias, which I've forgotten the name of that, which is if we don't understand something, we think it's going to harm us. And I think that the bias is there if I've maybe put up a tweet or a blog post, they haven't understood what I'm saying. So then some way of thinking, she's out to harm me. And the two things together, I know a lot about this and I don't understand what she said, she must be able to harm me. And I think people are jumping and mixing biases. I've got blog posts in my head and it's really something I try and practice doing is, what do I see if I see something that I'm uncomfortable with? I've got better over the years. It's saying, excuse me.
Jen Stirrup (01:21:59):
And then, this is a Scottish thing, and I know people on the podcast can't see it, but pointing your finger is actually very Scottish thing. So I remember it being at [inaudible 01:22:08] a few years ago, when some of their guys were making comments with one of the female presenters and I pointed my finger at them and I said, "I'm speaking to you, lot. What do you think you're saying? Stop it." Now, I'm getting better at calling people out as I see it, then I used to be. And I think maybe it's partly because I'm more aware of it maybe but also I think maybe I'm seeing more of it as well, so maybe there's that. And then it's just confidence to go up and point fingers at people.
Jen Stirrup (01:22:37):
But I think something, a line I cultivate is, are you kidding me? And that works everywhere. So anything that you've seen ever. And I want to sort of blow post an axe at something I'm trying to get better at. And the reason for that is I was in [inaudible 01:22:54] a while ago and somebody said something against the Jewish person. I live in an area with a lot of synagogues. And they said something which I will not repeat and asked him if he was okay afterwards. But I just didn't know what to say. And I thought, I now have to practice situations where it will prepare me better for speaking out when I see something which makes me uncomfortable. And it's a sort of indicator of the world that we live in, that we have to practice and have a stock series of phrases. And I love to blog about this. And the reason I mention it is just because I'm still figuring it all out. And I wish I knew a better way forward, but I think that reacting to trolls, reacting to people online, reacting when I see something, I think if you're a nice person, you're not expecting something.
Rob Collie (01:23:42):
Yeah, it's surprising.
Jen Stirrup (01:23:43):
And it surprises you and it catches you off guard because you think, "Well I never think like that. Where did that come from?"
Rob Collie (01:23:48):
Just as a humorous aside, you mentioned that are you kidding me is proven to be very effective. I have not found this to be very effective in my marriage. It is exactly the wrong thing for me to say, even though it is a go-to. I keep thinking that this will be the time that this sentence works. No, it doesn't.
Jen Stirrup (01:24:08):
No I wouldn't recommend it to a spouse. I'm divorced.
Rob Collie (01:24:13):
So am I, so am I. This is marriage number two. I want this one to work. It doesn't mean that are you kidding me is the move. Don't do that.
Jen Stirrup (01:24:25):
Just if I see something. So if I saw that incident again on the train where that man said something to that gentleman, it's pier capping things on, I would be best to prepared now.
Thomas Larock (01:24:30):
I'll try it with Suzanne to get some more empirical evidence. We'll see how it goes. I'll report back next podcast.
Jen Stirrup (01:24:37):
Suzanne is lovely. I don't think you'd ever have to say that to. I remember meeting her and we discussed Scotland because she had favorite TV programs.
Thomas Larock (01:24:45):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:24:46):
Oh, I don't have to say it, either. It's not like it's justified. I'm just, anyway, I think it's fair to acknowledge that my nine out of 10 trolls story. All 10 of these trolls were male, shocking, I know. I definitely benefited from being a guy while handling them. There's a guy language and a guy code, and there's a lot of subtext going on in an interaction between two men that is very different. Whether we like it or not, it's very different when a woman is the target of it, and the way that you deal with it. It's weird. Even over the internet, there's this almost primal behavior going on. There's this threat that's been signaled, and then if there's a man on the other end, he turns around with some version of, "Oh yeah."
Jen Stirrup (01:25:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:25:38):
And there's sort of a deescalation that happens at that moment. And I don't really think that those tools are available to women in the same way that it's available when it's a guy to guy interaction. That's tricky.
Jen Stirrup (01:25:54):
You're taught to be fair and move.
Rob Collie (01:25:55):
Yeah. If you use exactly the same words that I do in an email response, it's not going to come across the same way. It's not going to get you the same result that it gets me.
Jen Stirrup (01:26:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:26:08):
I just basically said some version of, "Oh, okay. Oh, come on. There's got to be some sort of ..." There's no doubt that your success rate with those same words would be different than mine.
Jen Stirrup (01:26:17):
Yeah, it can work either way, I think. Sometimes it's just like the old bag is speaking. I'm not going to listen to her. But the other side of it is, "Hang on a minute. She actually said something to me." And that can cause a reaction. So sometimes it can work either way. It's quite hard to know. And I think trying to codify that into a checklist is quite hard. But I just thought, how can I best get better at dealing with these situations? Because I think as we come back to the world after COVID, we'll probably see more of this similar misunderstandings. And a few years ago, I tried to set up a decency charter and a code of conduct in [inaudible 01:26:55] . And I was surprised because not that many people adopted it. I think only two organizations did. And I thought with a decency chart or say something like, "We will be inclusive. We welcome everyone regardless of color and age and everything else." I put that together. And people wouldn't sign up to it. And I thought, "How can you not? How can you not" I don't know.
Rob Collie (01:27:17):
I want to go read it. And I want to go find all of the incredibly controversial content that I object to in this charter. I'm just kidding.
Jen Stirrup (01:27:29):
I know.
Rob Collie (01:27:29):
I'm expecting it to be a hundred percent obvious innocuous. I can't wait to say, "Oh hell no, we're not adopting this."
Jen Stirrup (01:27:44):
I'm going to throw it out. That's getting a red pen through it.
Thomas Larock (01:27:47):
Rob, our blog posts will just be, "Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me?"
Rob Collie (01:27:54):
I've even, by the way, on Facebook a long time ago, I made a fake dashboard of all of the buttons and levers available to me in a conversation in my marriage and giving them all labels. But there's this one giant button in the middle of the dashboard that's, are you kidding me? It sort of represents me just failing over and over again.
Thomas Larock (01:28:21):
Put that in the show.
Rob Collie (01:28:22):
The completely stupid rob dashboard for ... anyway.
Jen Stirrup (01:28:31):
Yeah, I was just trying to find stock phrases that I could just have in my head to respond with really quickly. Where I could just, if I see something. There's that and another one is which I find works if I'm getting harassed in the street or something, is I just say, "Oh, grow up." No one can say anything when they're told to grow up. I've never, ever had a good answer. So say I'm just walking around, minding my own business, walking with a laptop and going back to my car. And somebody wolf whistles. I'll just say, "Oh grow up." And I've never had a good answer to that, ever. What I'd like to do is find these phrases. Where if I see something, it makes people stop and think. I don't know, I wish I had a better answer. I'm still trying to figure so much out and I think I'll figure it all out and then I'll day the next day or something. There's so much to learn.
Rob Collie (01:29:17):
I know, and all this acquired wisdom, you start to like really cherish it. Like I badly, badly, badly want to share as much of it as I possibly can with my children. It seems like such a waste to develop it and then it's all lost. Like Roy Batty said like tears in rain at the end of Blade Runner. You mentioned sort of having these stock phrases on speed dial. I read one time about this guy who had been in prison for a long time. And he says 20 years later after being out of prison, he still has this five punch combination that he memorized for himself on speed dial. At any moment's time, he remembers exactly what it is. He had to have that to survive.
Jen Stirrup (01:29:56):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:29:57):
Not a good sign.
Jen Stirrup (01:29:58):
No, it's not.
Rob Collie (01:29:59):
When you need these things.
Jen Stirrup (01:30:00):
Yeah, and we shouldn't need them, but it's unfortunate that we do. And [inaudible 01:30:05] do self-defense classes. They're so helpful.
Rob Collie (01:30:13):
So you're up to like a two to three punch combination now. Takes a little while to get to five, I suppose.
Jen Stirrup (01:30:18):
Someone tried to mock me in my local village. I'd got some sausage rolls for my son and had them in a little bag, in a baker's bag. And this guy came towards me and I thought, [inaudible 01:30:30] with his fingers. And I thought, "He's going to mug me to get my thing." I got nervous. And then I remembered all the self-defense training. One of my friends is a former Olympian for the UK in karate. And she's very much about, you need to be on your guard all the time. I attend her lessons and I'm not very graceful at any of it. But he tried to grab my bag. And she taught me, use your elbow. And all that stuff because it's muscle memory because I practice every week. I'm trying to lose weight. So I hit someone in the nose with my elbow and he jumped back because it didn't expect it. So he's twice my height and half my age and it's the last thing he expected me to do. And as he came forward, invited himself, I punched him in the temple and the side of the face. And I'm laughing now, but at the time I was absolutely terrified. And it wasn't worth it over the sausage rolls. I should've just given them up, but just the fact that we have to be on our guard all the time.
Jen Stirrup (01:31:28):
And if he'd said to me, "I'm hungry and homeless and penniless," I would have given him it. But just the fact that he didn't look any of those things. I think he just thought, perception, older female, I'm going to take whatever she's got in her bag. So when I punched him and he fell to the ground, actually, and I just walked away. And I guess that I never thought I would ever need self-defense, but I think these things that we see sometimes in our daily life are showing us that we do need some form of self defense against seeing things and empowering ourselves to see something when we do. BEcause I think that's one of the hardest things is speaking up and speaking out. And I know I talk about it a lot, but I find it tough.
Jen Stirrup (01:32:14):
And I guess my lesson here is can we develop some sort of self-defense when you look at community events where we have got a code of conduct and my decency charter. It doesn't have to have my name on it. I don't care if it does or it doesn't. I just want people to feel welcome and that we are doing self-defense and other defense if we see something. Because it's a shame because as Tom and I know, we spend hours if not days that pass talking about anti harassment. And we developed, I think, a great piece of work on that. I think that's something, a past legacy that we should be incredibly proud of actually, because we put so much work into it. Was it perfect? No, but we're back to 80/20 again. It covered 80% of cases, edge cases sometimes not so much, but that's why the red cases, because there was the things that you maybe, or I didn't think of, maybe tried to be as prepared as we could. And I think it's almost like we need one of those for everyday life.
Rob Collie (01:33:11):
You got in a physical altercation.
Jen Stirrup (01:33:15):
Yes, I did.
Rob Collie (01:33:17):
It sounds like you're knocked him out. Down he went.
Thomas Larock (01:33:21):
What I took away was she left him for dead.
Jen Stirrup (01:33:26):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:33:28):
She walked away to go after his family.
Jen Stirrup (01:33:34):
Walked away because it was me scooting away, because I thought I'm just going to scoot away because I've done this and I'm embarrassed. And I was full of adrenaline and I didn't want to run because then you look like you're guilty. Whereas he was coming after me. So I turned back about halfway down the street and he was dusting himself off. And actually a few weeks later I was in High Street and someone stopped me and they said, "I saw what happened with that guy. He's been doing that for some time and somebody needed to teach him a lesson."
Rob Collie (01:33:59):
So you interfered.
Jen Stirrup (01:34:00):
I interfered.
Rob Collie (01:34:03):
You interfered with the normal order of events, which is him harassing people and taking their stuff.
Jen Stirrup (01:34:09):
I mean, change not too much. What's your bio, actually. I think I've now made a life objective to be an interfering old bag.
Rob Collie (01:34:17):
So are there any sort of pithy, short tips that you would provide to organizations, sort of like easy things to remember, easy things to do, new habits to develop or old habits to discard that can advance the cause of inclusivity?
Jen Stirrup (01:34:35):
Be kind. The reason I say that is because I was on customer set a few years ago and I witnessed something and I'd rather not say what it was, but there was an incident I was unhappy with and nobody stuck up for that person. And it's just sometimes in technology companies, there isn't that culture of speaking out. And I thought, "Well, I'm going to speak out on behalf of that person." And I wrote a report, actually. They asked me to write up a report about it, which I did. And I said that, I should try and find it, but wrote this phrase about acting with kindness.
Jen Stirrup (01:35:06):
I think the other thing I think is something that Mark Sousa used to say a lot is that destiny that joins the passport and it has helped me so much is assume good intentions. So for me and other interfering old bags, that I need to remember to look for the good intentions. Because I think I can be quite a negative person and I'm not always looking for those. And I think that was an incredibly wise thing. Yeah, I've forgotten the actual phrase which I gave to that customer. But I did say something along the lines of, and I actually suggested even ambassadors of kindness because the culture was really unpleasant. I shouldn't have to tell companies this, right?
Rob Collie (01:35:47):
No.
Jen Stirrup (01:35:48):
Anyway, I left and I don't know if he did anything.
Rob Collie (01:35:51):
So many table stakes. Here's one, I haven't taught a class in a long time, but I used to teach all the time. And one of my observations from teaching classes in DAX and data modeling, power BI, whatever, is that the population of students in the room was always at least 50% female. On average, over time, it was slightly higher than 50% female. So the quantity was 50/50. And then quality-wise, my guess as to who the best student was in the class at the end of a couple of days was again, coin flippy, whether the person who I thought was probably the most promising half the time male, half the time female. And yet our company, the people who apply for jobs with us, overwhelmingly male.
Rob Collie (01:36:36):
I feel a number of things about this. First of all, I just feel that it's a terrible shame. There's something wrong here. You talking about women in tech and all of that, usually you don't start from a baseline like 50/50. We're in this place where we have an amazing baseline. We're already in a great spot. You mentioned things like asking the right questions and everything. I actually think that, might be unpopular to say it, but I actually think women are probably better on average at formulating questions than men. The talent base is there. Where are we failing?
Jen Stirrup (01:37:05):
Yeah, I think there's a few things happening. I tend to get lots of job applications of people speculatively finding CVs, and the sense you get a lot of women and people from LGTB backgrounds as well applying. And I think maybe some of it is about positioning the company. So if you position it as, "Yeah, we're all about the data. We're all about the technology. But there's our mission in there." Because I do work for DataKind who are a data science charity. They always get 50% new female inclusion and I don't really want to see 50/50 because some people are non binary as well. So there's a healthy representation there, I think. I'm not non binary, but we are attracting people from at least three genders and that's good thing. But I think the reason for that is I get some tacitly, technically astonishing women are doing fantastic things. And I think it's about the way that it's maybe marketed as being inclusive and secondly helping people and having a really good impact.
Jen Stirrup (01:38:09):
I think people tend to be incentivized in the workplace is that they're having a good impact or perhaps being salary motivated. And if you go in more with the mission and the purpose, then that's a good thing. I mean, that's just I'd have to look at your company website or any company website. But I think some of it is what do you blog about? Are you just maybe talking about technology or are you talking about making things better somewhere for somebody. And maybe that's quite general, but when I go into Datakinds data dive and I'm sat with at least 50% women, they are harnessing people of all different backgrounds. And I think it's about that we have a mission. We and our skills and technology expertise are part of us, but we're here all with a common purpose. And I think the tech community needs that as well.
Jen Stirrup (01:38:57):
I've often said I'd love to see Microsoft Ignite, for example, doing a Data Hackathon Day. And I think they've tried something like this sped would think it was dialed up enough. I would love to see them partner with Datakind as an example and do something really good over the course of a conference like that. I think I had the idea sort of after we left Pass. So don't think it was something I did as part of Pass. But the thing is, people will build a sense of community and the get better technical skills because they're interacting with people of all sorts of backgrounds.
Jen Stirrup (01:39:29):
One of the guys on my team is at Cambridge, University of Cambridge PhD doing a post-doc in genomics research. And he was doing location mapping for one of the charities that we were working for. And he was just phenomenally brilliant. I think when you deal with people like that donating their time for a cause, they tend to be nice people because they want to help. And I think technical community, speaking generally, it doesn't always have that. It's like, who's this serving? Is it serving our company? Is it serving the individual because they're building their career? I think when you talk with tech community, it's about, "Yay, come present and you'll increase your career skills and your technical skills." What about saying something like, "Hey, come along and you can help people. You can have a charity. You can have an impact in people you'll never meet." I think I'd like to see more collaborations.
Rob Collie (01:40:19):
Jen, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed, but I've also just really appreciated this conversation.
Jen Stirrup (01:40:25):
Thanks so much.
Announcer (01:40:26):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
We were absolutely thrilled to be able to sit down with Adam Harstad, who is basically Rob's secret weapon to dominate every year in our office Fantasy Football league! Fantasy sports is just one avenue that allows Adam to display his incredible art of storytelling through data.
References in this Episode: Football Guys Forums
Football Outsiders
Imperial March Major Key Version
The Map Is Not The Territory
The Treachery of Images
Reactive Armor
Zidane Headbutt
Joey Harrington Article
Blotto Game
Ted Lasso Dart Scene(FOUL LANGUAGE)
Episode Timeline:
- 3:30 - Adam is a HUGE fan of path dependency, SSOG and The Crying Elephant, the ups and downs of being a sports fan
- 17:05 - Data and Storytelling, Business data vs. Sports data analytics,
- 46:40 - Risk assessment, The NFL Draft, Sunk Cost examples, Adam finds his niche with Fantasy Football
- 1:08:10 - Single trial experiments, Calibrating predictions and models, and Super Forecasters
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. There was an old Monty Python movie titled And Now for Something Completely Different. I think that's an excellent tagline for this show, and today's guest, Adam Harstad. Nominally, Adam, is a fantasy football writer and analyst, but I think you'll see that that title or really any succinct title really struggles to describe and contain the human being that is Adam. A better term for him might be something like curious adventurer, because that really seems to be the way he approaches everything.
Rob Collie (00:00:34):
We went in a lot of weird and nerdy directions, as you might expect. Yes, of course, we talked about football. So if you're not into football, well, you can tune those parts out. But even there, when we're talking about football, we're really talking about the fundamentals of how to think and specifically how to think in the face of uncertainty. We also talked about the differences between sports analytics and business analytics, which of course are significant. And we revisited an old favorite topic that of Nate Silver versus elections.
Rob Collie (00:01:04):
I learned a lot of new vocabulary along the way, and I really must say that I felt pushed in this conversation in a good way. He was pressing us to be better, unintentionally, politely, but that's what happens when you have really intelligent, vibrant, capable people in your conversation. We all should be seeking out the Adams in our life because they pull us forward on that journey of improvement. And he's an entertaining fellow too, so let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:35):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please.
Announcer (00:01:39):
This is the Raw Data By P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Collie and your cohost Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com, Raw Data By P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:03):
Welcome to the show. Adam Harstad, how are you, sir?
Adam Harstad (00:02:08):
I am super happy to be here today.
Rob Collie (00:02:10):
Well, I appreciate that. You're a really good sport. Talk about just blindly wandering into something like a volunteer. No one has had as little context for coming on this show, as we've given you, we've really given you nothing and you're still just all smiley, ready to go.
Adam Harstad (00:02:27):
Yeah. We got a family motto for our little kids, we wanted to create a sense of identity. This is who we are as a family and our family motto is Harstads try new things, so I'm pretty much up for whatever.
Rob Collie (00:02:39):
Damn, that's how this came about is I saw a tweet from you a while back that said, "Hey, if you're looking for a podcast guest..." You had this long list of things that you were down for. And I'm like, "I'm going to take him up on it. Let's see if he actually means it." And you totally did.
Adam Harstad (00:02:54):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:55):
I know you better than you know me because I've been following on Twitter and actually elsewhere for a very, very long time, not super closely because I'm not really that fanatical about fantasy football, at least compared to what I used to be, but you're a data guy. There's no two ways about it. And also, bring that humanity, there's so much creativity and that right brain stuff going on at the same time. And that's, to me, where those two worlds meet is just golden. I love that. Let me explain to the audience how I know of you.
Rob Collie (00:03:28):
And at some point it's only fair, I suppose we turn the tables and Tom and I explain to you who we are. There's random internet stalkers as far as you're concerned. Right? I first discovered you, I believe on the old Footballguys forums early 2000s and you were, I believe SSOG.
Adam Harstad (00:03:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:36):
So I was right.
Adam Harstad (00:03:46):
That was back when I was young and still somewhat of a tool, which thankfully I've outgrown.
Tom Larock (00:03:51):
What's SSOG?
Adam Harstad (00:03:53):
Yeah. Speaking of growing out of being a tool, I got on the internet when I was 16 years old and I needed an email address and Hotmail was the thing at the time. So I signed up for a Hotmail account and being 16 and extremely full of myself. My first email address was somesortofgenius@hotmail.com because that was the joke. I'd say something and people would say, "What do you think you are, some sort of genius?" Then I could respond back that, "Yes, I do think I am some sort of genius."
Rob Collie (00:04:20):
I do. Exactly.
Adam Harstad (00:04:22):
That lasted for a year or two and then I realized, this is a little bit much, even for me, I'm all about owning who I am, but this is a little bit much even for me. Then I got into the University of Florida, so I changed it to some Gator, which was relatively inoffensive. And then just over time, it had gone through multiple-
Rob Collie (00:04:41):
Relatively.
Adam Harstad (00:04:42):
Relatively, absolutely. Depending on where you're from, depending on who you're asking. Over time, it went through multiple iterations where the commonality was just the initials and so, it became a running joke. People ask what SSOG stands for, and at one point it stood for stuff and then after a while it just stood for whatever you wanted it to stand for.
Rob Collie (00:05:00):
Now you're just SSOG.
Adam Harstad (00:05:02):
It's a testament to the power of path dependency. And I think, if you ask other questions about other elements online profile, it's all the same thing. It's a reminder to myself that where we are is largely a function of where we started and the path we took to get here.
Tom Larock (00:05:16):
That's deep.
Rob Collie (00:05:17):
Yeah. It's a concise summary in a way of like everyone we've had on this show, we've yet to have a guest on this show whose career was a cold shot. We're still looking for that person who set out to be something in high school that they knew what they wanted to do with their lives and they went out and they did it and they love it and they're successful at it. We're still looking for that guest.
Adam Harstad (00:05:38):
You should meet my wife. That's her in a nutshell, which is-
Rob Collie (00:05:41):
Really?
Adam Harstad (00:05:41):
It's always amazing to me. I can't fathom that sense of who you are at that young of an age. I still have very little sense of who I am. I'm still working on it, but she's always known.
Rob Collie (00:05:52):
Wow. That's got to be really interesting, as a close up example.
Adam Harstad (00:05:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:59):
My initial reaction is, wow, that would be really invalidating for me, but then I recovered. I'd be okay. I'd be okay. I'd be okay with my zigzag path.
Adam Harstad (00:06:06):
I've managed to survive for 20 years now with it.
Rob Collie (00:06:10):
Footballguys forums were one of the handful of places on the internet back at that time, where if you were really crazy obsessed about fantasy football, which I was at the time, you could get exposure to some really smart people in the community and their opinions. Not everything posted on those forums was intelligent or worth following, but it was amazing how, after a while, you, as a silent lurker on those boards, I almost never said anything.
Rob Collie (00:06:36):
There's a handful of personalities like these seven or eight avatars personas that you start to associate with subconsciously like, these are competent people. SSOG absolutely was one of those. And so now all these years later, the mystery of SSOG, the origins of the acronym unraveled. This is the first time I'd heard that, but you also had the crying elephant is that Babar?
Adam Harstad (00:07:00):
I have no idea what it is, to be honest. Speaking of path dependency and everything about my online personas attribute to that path dependency. I was on a forum and I needed an avatar and Google image search was the brand new thing. And I'm like, "I'm going to play around with Google image search to see what it does." I went onto Google image search, and I typed in SSOG and I looked at the page of the results. But unbeknownst to me, I had accidentally... My left hand was shifted one key to the left.
Adam Harstad (00:07:29):
So I actually typed in AAOF and the crying elephant was one of the first results and I'm like, "This is really cool." And I love that story. That it's serendipity, that just my hand was shifted a centimeter to the left. And now I've attached it to everything to create this consistent online brand because this is back before people were using real names and having a persistent online persona. But I really like the avatar. I think it's a little cheeky. It's a little bit fun, a little whimsical. And it, I think is mysterious. People are always wondering who is the elephant? Why is he crying?
Adam Harstad (00:08:04):
But I also love it because it's a complete accident, and that is a good reminder to me sometimes when I need one.
Rob Collie (00:08:11):
You can definitely go check this out right now on Twitter, Adam Harstad. Is that right?
Adam Harstad (00:08:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:08:17):
You're not @SSOG, but you kept the SSOG icon, the original elephant icon, the AAOF icon as the case to be.
Adam Harstad (00:08:26):
Again, path dependency. I tried to register SSOG on Twitter first, there is an account on Twitter registered @SSOG that has one tweet. It says, "In a jerking mood." And that's the entire SSOG account.
Rob Collie (00:08:41):
Are you sure that wasn't you when you were-
Adam Harstad (00:08:44):
I’m positive.
Rob Collie (00:08:45):
...half-awake one night?
Tom Larock (00:08:47):
[inaudible 00:08:47].
Adam Harstad (00:08:48):
That's why I write under my own name as opposed to a pseudonym. At some point I probably made a transition.
Tom Larock (00:08:54):
That account is suspended.
Adam Harstad (00:08:56):
I think so. I think so. Just because it's registered in 2009, because I was on relatively early, not super-duper early, but I've been on for over 10 years now and that one beat me on and tweeted, "In a jerking mood." And then just never logged in again.
Rob Collie (00:09:10):
But that describes Twitter so well, don't you think?
Adam Harstad (00:09:14):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And they did the alternating caps and no caps. I love it. And that's why I write under my real name.
Rob Collie (00:09:20):
By keeping the elephant, I was able to connect you with who you had been on the forums. Are you still on the Footballguys forums at all?
Adam Harstad (00:09:28):
Not so much anymore. People think there's this grand conspiracy that once you start writing for Footballguys, that the bosses don't want you on the forums as much, which couldn't be further from the truth. It's more just, people have kids, people grow older, people have less disposable time.
Rob Collie (00:09:41):
Let's just go back for a moment. Florida Gators, I was raised with the Gators as a religion. I betrayed everybody and went to Vanderbilt. I was the first person in my family to break ranks, but then you ended up a Denver specialist, right?
Adam Harstad (00:09:54):
Yeah. I grew up in Colorado. Till I was 15, I lived in Colorado and then we moved out to Florida. I wasn't a diehard Gator or anything. It's just, I lived in Florida. It was in state tuition. It was the best public school in the state, so that's where I wound up.
Rob Collie (00:10:09):
Also, coincidentally, because I was raised so aggressively on the Gators. At an age when you're just defenseless, you're just going to take an imprint and it's going to stick. My favorite NFL team for a very long time was the Broncos because of the same color scheme.
Adam Harstad (00:10:24):
Orange and blue.
Rob Collie (00:10:25):
That's right. I suffered through all of those terrible blowout losses. I used Apple II Print Shop to make a banner for the Broncos and hung it on the front of my house in middle school just to have them get destroyed.
Adam Harstad (00:10:41):
At least they were making it though.
Rob Collie (00:10:42):
That's right.
Adam Harstad (00:10:43):
It's hard to complain too much as a Bronco fan. There was a three decade span where we had more Super Bowl appearances than losing seasons.
Rob Collie (00:10:50):
Yeah. When you think about being a fan for a sports team, it's a losing proposition, the probability. There's only one team that's going to end on a high note, that's it. There's one team. Take the number of teams in the league, divide one by that that's your percentage chance of ending the season happy. I just think the expected value of being a fan of a particular team is actually pretty low. Even the good years where you win the championship, I just don't know that that really makes up for the down.
Rob Collie (00:11:19):
I've become more of a sports fan for that reason. A little bit more mercenary. Here we go.
Tom Larock (00:11:25):
This isn't true. That's really extreme. First of all, you could say that about any sport, but what you really mean to say is only one team and so seasoned on the wind, but there's no way you're going to tell me that a Cleveland Browns fan didn't end last season happy to beat Pittsburgh in the playoff game after how many shitty seasons. They ended happy. They didn't win it all, but they're certainly happy.
Rob Collie (00:11:50):
Think about though, how the ground needed to be prepped for them to reach that level of happiness about mediocrity.
Tom Larock (00:11:58):
That's fair.
Rob Collie (00:11:58):
They had to have decades of misery. I just-
Tom Larock (00:12:01):
You’re talking to a Patriots fan; I know decades of misery.
Rob Collie (00:12:05):
I know. I just don't think that being a sports fan for a particular team was a buy and hold strategy. You inherently need to time that market if you want to win.
Tom Larock (00:12:13):
Buy and hold is interesting because as a child, my friends and I, we would pick one of the worst teams to start rooting for because we knew in 20 years, they'd be good and then we could say, we were a fan way back. I'll go get my Vikings jersey right now just to show you.
Rob Collie (00:12:32):
Any year now. There's this, and it's a well-known human tendency that we judge experiences predominantly by the very, very end. They've done studies where they'll play people, this beautiful symphony and then right at the very end, they end on a sour note and people will say it ruined the entire symphony. There's 30 minutes of music and it ends on one note. And I just think that's the wrong way of looking at it.
Rob Collie (00:13:00):
You had 29 minutes and 50 seconds of just the sublime transcended experience and 10 seconds of something bad and you end your season on a loss, but the season, isn't just the last game of the season. It's all the anticipation leading up. It's everything you do during the course of the year. A lot of troubles in life are just a matter of perspective and a matter of attitude.
Tom Larock (00:13:20):
I want to hear one of these now. Is it just a sad trombone at the end?
Rob Collie (00:13:26):
[inaudible 00:13:26].
Tom Larock (00:13:36):
Because I'd just be sitting there laughing. This is the greatest thing ever.
Rob Collie (00:13:40):
The meta of it would immediately just like crash over me. Like, are you kidding, you designed an experiment like this?
Adam Harstad (00:13:48):
I think it doesn't resolve, you have the progression and it's supposed to resolve on a certain note and they're probably a half step flat. And I don't know if you know that much about music, but if something doesn't resolve, it creates this very real physical tension because you're anticipating it and you're anticipating and you're waiting for it. And it's really a cruel thing to do to someone, but at the end of the day, it doesn't change the first 29 minutes of the symphony.
Tom Larock (00:14:12):
Tomorrow night I'm going to Tanglewood to see John Williams in the movie night. Now he's 89. I'm pretty sure he'll still be alive for tomorrow, so that's good. But now I'm just thinking he's going to play the Star Wars theme and at the end of it, it's just a sad trombone. I'm just going to be sitting there laughing at the end of all these songs. People are going to be like, "What is wrong with that person?"
Rob Collie (00:14:36):
All right. I don't know anything about music theory. I freaking love music. I'm always, always, always deep, deep into music and stuff that I appreciate is usually like on the more complex end and I don't know anything. Let's talk about this for a moment. I heard the Imperial March one time in the major key instead of the minor key. The minor key Imperial March is very foreboding. The major key version sounds like this upbeat, let's go have fun. It's like a clown parade. Explain it to me like I'm five minor key versus major key.
Rob Collie (00:15:13):
Have we come to the point where I'm going to understand this in my life?
Adam Harstad (00:15:16):
The simple version is minor key sounds sad, major key sounds happy, but that's too simplistic. There are happy songs written in minor keys. There are sad songs written in major keys. It's been a lot of years since I have last taken any music theory courses and that's unfortunately some of the knowledge I've lost during my life.
Rob Collie (00:15:32):
Well, that's okay. Path dependency again. Right?
Adam Harstad (00:15:35):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:15:35):
I've also heard though that it's cultural, certain cultures will actually find the major key to be the sad one and vice versa.
Adam Harstad (00:15:43):
Yeah. Most of our experience of music is just based on historical context and our exposure to music. What sounds normal. A lot of our enjoyment of music is actually anticipation. There's pattern recognition and there are certain patterns that are common through music and the brain really loves anticipating those patterns and then when the patterns resolve in the way that we expect them to, the brain rewards us with a jolt of pleasure like, "I knew that was going to happen. That was very enjoyable and pleasant."
Adam Harstad (00:16:10):
Sometimes if the patterns resolve in ways, we were not expecting brain results us in a jolt of pleasure because this was fun and new and exciting. I'm eager to see where it goes next. And so, our experience in music is heavily shaped by the patterns and our experience to music prior to that. We can listen to a Western pop song and we're very familiar with the genre, we're familiar with the tropes. We're familiar with, we're going to go first course first. Maybe sometime we'll have a coda.
Adam Harstad (00:16:40):
There's the common building blocks of music and artists will change the order of them, they'll change the way they're put together. They'll change the makeup of those blocks, but they're building with the same blocks, whereas we can listen to Eastern music and it just sounds very foreign to us because we don't have that language. We don't have that fluency in it yet.
Tom Larock (00:16:58):
It's such an interesting topic, almost like this anticipation. I totally see that.
Rob Collie (00:17:02):
And there are some quirky misdirections in music that you wouldn't necessarily expect, but that are incredibly fun when they spring them on you. It's not just personality that I've been drawn to that it kept me reading your stuff over the years. And in fact that wasn't at the beginning at all right. It was the quality of the insight and most of it is data-driven. Most of it is analytical. It's not just about the evidence that you collect. It's also about the way that you process it that I have found valuable over the years in trying to defeat my friends and colleagues in a silly game.
Rob Collie (00:17:35):
How did you discover your passion for data?
Adam Harstad (00:17:38):
It's funny. I came at it obliquely. I've got a very strong left brain, classically left brain skills, math and seeing patterns and interpolation, things like that. But I think my love of football and my love of fantasy football has actually always been more narratively driven. And I like to say first and foremost, I'm a storyteller. And it's funny you say I'm a data guy. I know data guys who think I'm one of those narrative guys, narrative guys think I'm a data guy, I'm in that liminal space between.
Adam Harstad (00:18:08):
For me, it's all about, I have these pressing questions and I think the questions are the interesting part. And I'm looking for any insight, knowledge, any edge I can get to answer those questions. And getting back to path dependency, when I was getting into fantasy football in early, early 2000s, that was really the unexplored space. There's a website called Football Outsiders that was just launching and they were actually looking at data and they're saying, let's compare every play in this situation to every other play in the situation.
Adam Harstad (00:18:40):
If you ran for four yards in first and 10, was that a good play? Was that a bad play? Nobody had ever really dug into it. And so, that was the edge. That was where the edge is. And over time as analytics has gotten to be a bigger and bigger part of the sport of football and the hobby of fantasy football, I find often the edge is in this, not really contrarian to analytics, because I think analytics is good and useful and right. Analytics is a way of approaching problems by looking at the data and that's a very, very useful tool.
Adam Harstad (00:19:13):
But I think that there's some conventional wisdom that should apply to analytics that has gotten lost along the way in the rush to mine more data. So for me, it's never been specifically about the data. It's been about the questions and the answers. And for most of my career, the data has been the best way to reach those answers, but it's not the only way. It's more about finding the appropriate tool for the appropriate situation.
Rob Collie (00:19:37):
I think I'm starting to understand why I felt this remote kinship with you asymmetric, because that's how the internet works with lurkers and publishers. Our team is growing really rapidly at our company and we're a remote team. We're all over the country, even though we're full-time employees, it's a good problem to have, but it's become difficult to keep track of who everybody is. Name, face, okay. But what about personality? It's so hard. Yesterday we started collecting information to make flashcards for everybody.
Rob Collie (00:20:11):
Everyone had just to pick a "superpower" or something like that, but not something super professional, but like storyteller. I picked storyteller for me, folksy storytelling would be one of my, "Look out, he's going to do it." And then the football, I'm a data professional. There's no two ways about it. I worked on data tools at Microsoft, I worked on Excel, I worked on power BI, I'm CEO of a data analytics, business intelligence consulting firm. Yes, data professional. But that all started for me in the late '90s with the same sorts of things as what you're talking about.
Rob Collie (00:20:45):
Like how do I actually approach this game, fantasy football? How do I approach it more effectively? I stumbled upon the original value-based drafting article years ago, which put the different positions into perspective in terms of relative value. And I was just like, "Ugh" It's like the holy grail. It was this magical unlocking moment and what followed was just reams of spreadsheets and coding and all kinds of things. It was the only times, even though I was a software professional already, I was already working at Microsoft.
Rob Collie (00:21:15):
I was never really that into it. It was one of the few times that I was actually into it was when I started doing these sorts of things. Another thing that you wouldn't have the context for is that on this podcast over and over and over again, we talk about how we observe even, the value is in the hybrids of different centers of mass. In the business world of data, it's long been like these completely separate universes where IT was doing some data stuff and business was doing some data stuff and they almost never collaborated.
Rob Collie (00:21:51):
And really the software was built to create this divide in the old days, but now there's this rise of these IT/business hybrids. And again, it comes back to all these sorts of things that you were saying conventional wisdom is a shortcut for saying all kinds of things, all kinds of developed expertise and wisdom that you can't just set aside when you're using data. You need to integrate the two. IT can come into a business situation and bring all kinds of technical skill, but they've got a complete blank slate when it comes to the business knowledge of what's actually going on. Right?
Adam Harstad (00:22:28):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:22:28):
It turns out that you can't have one or the other, you have to have both. And that just keeps coming up on this show for good reason so I think there's a fundamental truth that we're experiencing there.
Adam Harstad (00:22:39):
Yeah, for sure. I think where fantasy football at is gotten a little bit too disdainful of other forms of received wisdom. There's this idea that what the data says is true, which is usually the case, unless you're making mistakes, analyzing the data, which is very, very easy to do, but there's also the sense that what isn't coming from the data is not necessarily false, but suspect. And as an example, there was a recent debate about whether throwing two running backs is a positive or negative for NFL offenses.
Adam Harstad (00:23:11):
And the data guys looked at it and they said, if you look at the expected value of every play, passes to running backs are less valuable than passes to wide receivers, which is true, I'm sure that's exactly what the data says. They're smart guys. They know how to analyze it. I'm sure that they're controlled for the appropriate confounders, various other pitfalls, but at the same time, I'm looking at it like, that may be so, but if you look at the best offenses of the last 15 years, disproportionately, they've thrown to their running backs a lot.
Adam Harstad (00:23:40):
You look at Sean Payton's New Orleans Saints throw to their running backs more than any team in the of football, and it's hard to find any offense in history that has had as much sustained success as the 2006 to 2020 New Orleans Saints. Bill Belichick, New England Patriots, you have James White, Shane Vereen. They historically have had a back whose only job is catching the football. Danny Woodhead was there, and it's hard to look at these and say, throwing to running backs is a bad play and yet a lot of the best offenses in history do it a lot.
Adam Harstad (00:24:13):
A lot of the worst offenses in history do it a lot too. I don't think it's a silver bullet, but it's hard for me to reconcile the idea that this is just outright bad with this observation that it's so often successful. And so, to me, the received wisdom is maybe we have reasons to be suspect of passes to the running back, but I can't just outright declare it bad, but that's not coming from data. That's coming from anecdote and observation, which is a powerful tool for receiving insight that I don't think is necessarily reckoned with enough.
Tom Larock (00:24:45):
On that, what I would say, and I got a whole lot I want to talk about when we talk about bias and things like that, and I just followed you on Twitter so I could retweet your thing about selection bias. I started fantasy football in the mid '90s, roughly. Well, I think we all did when it was really up and coming and no offense, but I'd never heard the Footballguys until today. I knew the Football Outsiders and I knew a handful of websites and this was before even ESPN or CBS Sports was offering this data, so I've been there.
Tom Larock (00:25:16):
What you're talking about just now with the throwing to the running backs, what hit me was all the data that you're examining is historical and you have no idea of what's going to happen next. You can say, everything we do in fantasy football, all we're doing is managing risk. I have a risk of scoring zero points, how do I make sure that I'm at least scoring something and that's all we're doing. We're just looking for a way to make sure we're producing some value on the field, so to speak.
Tom Larock (00:25:48):
Anyway, let's look at, if you could, as an example, before the 2007 season, when the Patriots had Moss and Wes Welker, nobody had any idea of just how many points that team was going to put on the board that year, because historically it just didn't happen. Maybe there was an offense from the 40s that ran something similar, but probably didn't have the same numbers generated. But when you talk about Belichick and a lot of coaches in the league, everything old is new again.
Tom Larock (00:26:20):
He just says, "All right, what talent do I have? Where would they excel?" This type of a formation. It's not really hard. They just look and say, "It's fairly basic. You need to do these things to be successful. Wes, go into the slot, run that way. Brady might hit you because Moss is just going to go de..." My point is simply, you can do all this analysis, at the end of the day you still don't know what's going to happen if somebody gets hurt. And to me, like I said, it's just managing the risk of scoring zero points. That's how I look at it each week.
Tom Larock (00:26:52):
I have a risk of scoring nothing, I can actually in this league be negative. How do I avoid that?
Adam Harstad (00:26:57):
One of my favorite articles I wrote was actually, you guys are probably familiar with the phrase, "The map is not the territory."?
Rob Collie (00:27:02):
No, I've never heard it.
Adam Harstad (00:27:03):
It's this idea that a map obviously is not the territory that it represents. It's a map. If you draw a mountain on the map, it's not like a mountain is going to magically spring from the ground and it's a representation. And I do a lot of historical modeling and that's a lot of my process is I will look at historically comparable players. Ja'Marr Chase comes in, what's the history of highly drafted rookie wide receivers? And from that, I'll create my baseline expectations. You need your prior and you can adjust your prior from there, but it's good to have that strong prior to start.
Adam Harstad (00:27:38):
But the problem is, let's say that one of the historically comparable players for Ja'Marr Chase is Larry Fitzgerald, that's going into the mix. If Larry Fitzgerald had torn his Achilles tendon as a rookie and never played another snap, the comparable players for Ja'Marr Chase would be worse, but his prospects wouldn't be any different. Realistically, it's not like Larry Fitzgerald tearing his Achilles would make Ja'Marr Chase more likely to tear his Achilles.
Adam Harstad (00:28:05):
Similarly, if someone like Charles Rogers who was a colossal bust had gone on to become a Hall of Famer, the comparable players to Ja'Marr Chase would look better, but Ja'Marr Chase's prospects wouldn't change at all. And it's something that I think you really need to reckon with when you're doing this kind of historical modeling. You need to remember that the map is not the territory. Every player in this situation has done poorly before, it doesn't mean that this player is going to do poorly now.
Adam Harstad (00:28:28):
But the full quote is, “The map is not the territory, but it has similar features accounting for its usefulness." If it's drawn correctly, it will resemble the territory enough that you can use it to navigate and it'll get you where you need to go if it's a good map. But the famous René Magritte has the treachery of images. It's the picture of the pipe and underneath he writes, "This is not a pipe." And everybody gets really mad because they're like, "Of course it's a pipe. Of course it's a pipe."
Adam Harstad (00:28:54):
And he said, "Okay, well, can you stuff it? Can you light it? Can you smoke it? No, it's not a pipe. It's a picture. It's not a pipe." The map is not the territory, but it shares similar features and that accounts for its usefulness.
Rob Collie (00:29:06):
We still need maps. Just be careful how you use them.
Adam Harstad (00:29:09):
Lewis Carroll wrote once about a country that created a map with a scale of one mile equals one mile, but then they didn't find it that useful, so now they use the territory as its own map and it serves almost as well.
Rob Collie (00:29:20):
Yeah, it's perfect actually.
Tom Larock (00:29:24):
That sounds more like a Steven Wright joke.
Rob Collie (00:29:26):
Yeah, it does. Sports, data, sports analytics. I think it draws a lot of the same personalities to it that business data draws, but the similarities between the two as domains, as professional activities, or even as hobbies, they don't actually share that much. There's some really, really, really important differences between the two. One of them is that sports is adversarial. It's a hundred percent adversarial. It's one team versus one team or one player versus one player. And the business world isn't like that. The business world inherently, it's competitive, but it's much more collaborative.
Rob Collie (00:30:09):
People you're interacting with are your customers, not your direct competitors. And so, that changes everything. There's just so many things that happen. Like when we were talking earlier about throwing to the running back, for instance, one hypothesis we can form is that if you're effective at throwing to the running back, you maintain an information advantage over your opponent. You keep them guessing, you're unpredictable in a way that works to your advantage. Being unpredictable doesn't work to your advantage in business.
Rob Collie (00:30:40):
There's nothing to be gained by, "You didn't expect that." It's just not like that.
Tom Larock (00:30:46):
You mean every time Google kills a product, that's just not helping them?
Rob Collie (00:30:50):
No one expected Microsoft to buy ProClarity and basically put an end to it back in the day and that was just good fun. Kept things interesting.
Adam Harstad (00:30:58):
Kept everybody on their toes.
Rob Collie (00:30:59):
Yeah, that's right. You never know. We might buy the number one front end for our server and basically retire it. Anyway. They don't do that anymore. That's the old Microsoft that did that kind of thing.
Adam Harstad (00:31:13):
Monopoly rules.
Rob Collie (00:31:14):
Yeah, that's right. And also, software engineers running the show. Anyway, we're not going to talk about Microsoft too much today. The other thing about sports is that almost everything that you would do analytically with it is predictive in nature. Whereas in business, not everything, there's still absolutely predictive stuff that needs to be done in business and we do some of that for our clients. But like, let's say if I was speaking to the other audience, the sports analytics audience, who's never worked a day of business analytics.
Rob Collie (00:31:45):
The analogy I would give you is, what if you only found out the score of the game, that's all you learned was the output like, "Shit, we lost again. Bad this time. 31 to 10." But you didn't get to watch the game. You don't get any box score and we're the ones that use all of this incredibly fine grain data that's happening in the business to eventually explain why things are happening the way that they are. Even just knowing where you are, knowing what's actually happening.
Rob Collie (00:32:12):
There's a joke in our industry, business intelligence by bank account, which is you get to the end of the year and you're like, "Hey look, how much money is in our account. Way to go team." Or, “Damn. Terrible year. Everybody just grit your teeth and try harder next year." That's reality. The lights are out by default and it's a tremendous oversimplification, but at the same time, there's a lot of truth to it, which is, we go around turning the lights on, even just explaining what has happened.
Rob Collie (00:32:41):
Typically, we don't want to be like on a one-year delay to understand what's happening, we want to know early in the month, what you're trending towards and why, so that you have an opportunity to make changes. It's all about forward changes. So many differences about sports analytics versus business analytics. And yet we're all moths drawn to similar flames. I watched the skills that you've developed over the years as I've been watching you, Adam, are very different than the skills that I require in the business that I'm in on a daily basis.
Rob Collie (00:33:13):
There are outlier applications for a lot of the things that you do in business. Absolutely, but it's like the average task, the average analytical question in sports versus business is really completely different.
Adam Harstad (00:33:27):
Well, and I think a lot of it too, is that in sports, the whole possibility space is so constrained. If you have an offense at the one-yard line, there's basically a hundred possibilities for that play. They can gain zero yards, one yard, two yards, three yards, so on and so forth. Whereas, if you have a startup at the business equivalent of the one-yard line, the possibility space is just so much larger. They can succeed, they can fail, they can succeed and fail in old ways. They can succeed and fail in new ways.
Adam Harstad (00:33:56):
Really, everything's on the table, but sports because it happens in a clearly defined arena of competition, under rules that are laid out to all the participants in advance and everybody has an opportunity to study, maybe some people are more familiar with the rules than others, but they're all constrained by the same rules. The world works in a very predictable and ordered way in a way that the real world outside of sports just doesn't operate.
Adam Harstad (00:34:21):
And so, yeah. It doesn't surprise me that there's not that much carry over because it's such an arbitrary space to analyze. People talk about sports as a metaphor for life, and maybe it works as a metaphor, but it's not really a great analog
Rob Collie (00:34:34):
At the heart of it, let's get metaphysical nerdy.
Adam Harstad (00:34:36):
Totally.
Rob Collie (00:34:38):
In the history of warfare, which has actually a lot in common with sports, whether we like it or not, that adversarial nature, the only constraints are the physical world. At any point in time, there's never been impervious armor. The armor of the day has always been vulnerable to the weapons of the day. There's never something that, you could just build, it was invincible. Of course, armor of today probably could stop everything from 2000 years ago, but at that particular point in time, and why is that? The same materials, right?
Rob Collie (00:35:09):
Same materials, same manufacturing, same technology is available to both weapon makers and armor makers. It's just that the weapon, only the weapon "knows" where it's going to hit. There's an information advantage that the weapon has. The armor has to be prepared for everything, but the weapon gets to pick whatever spot it happens to hit. There's an information advantage for the weapon and like in football or really in sports, going back to the thing we were talking about, the being unpredictable, but still effective seems to be like a crucial element of a well-designed offense.
Rob Collie (00:35:42):
And guess what? There've been very, very, very few defenses in the history of the NFL that are capable of shutting out their opponents, very similar to the armor and weapon thing. Information conveys a very, very specific advantage in adversarial situations. Of course, information also conveys an advantage in business. I can't put this topic down. You seem smarter than I am, so let's see what you think of this.
Adam Harstad (00:36:05):
I seem that way, for sure. SSOG, man. Projection. It's a careful projection of certain appearances. Yeah, I'm thinking about it. I think a lot of it's probably an incentives issue too. I don't know that there's the incentive to build impenetrable armor, wholly impenetrable armor like there is to build unstoppable weapons. If you look at history and you're mentioning that war is very zero sum, the societies that survived and the cultures that survived are the ones that aggressively expand it.
Adam Harstad (00:36:38):
If you had a hypothetical city state that just wanted to just sit in their city and never expand territory, eventually they're going to be overrun. And so it's almost like the rules of the conquest favor the weapon making over the armor making. You need armor that's just good enough to allow you to use the weapons that you've created. I completely agree that information asymmetry, especially in zero sum competitions is very important. One game theory concept I go to a lot is called a blotto game.
Adam Harstad (00:37:11):
And a blotto game is a game between two people where you each have a certain number of resources. Say you're a general and I'm a general and we're contesting three battlefields. And we each have five units that we can send to those battlefields. And whoever sends more units to a specific battlefield is going to win that battlefield. And whoever wins more battlefields is going to win the war. You can allocate your units however you want.
Adam Harstad (00:37:33):
You could send all five units to one battlefield, which will guarantee you that you conquer or at least hire that battlefield, but then you're leaving the other two battlefields undefended and the other general will almost certainly win the war. That's definitely a losing strategy you could send and there's also, you could do three, one and one, you could do two, two and one and you can evaluate all the possibilities and some of them will be Pareto optimal, some of them will be completely dominated by other strategies.
Adam Harstad (00:37:58):
There's a strategy that will always lose to another strategy or at worst tie it. And you can study these blotto games and there's variants on them. Say one side has more resources than the other. Say that some battlefields are worth double points. It's different if you're just going to play at once or if you're going to iterate it over and over again. But the best advantage you can have in a blotto game is having more resources than the other guy. If you have 10 units and I have two units, it's going to be trivially easy for you to win.
Adam Harstad (00:38:26):
And then the second best advantage you can have in a blotto game is knowledge of what the other guy is doing. Because if I know your strategy, it becomes very easy for me to just pick the strategy that defeats it. And in zero sum endeavors, fantasy football, among other things. I find a lot of instances that if you look at it, it really is just a more expensive version of the blotto game. Even football itself, I would call something of a blotto game. An offense has five receivers. These are its units. And it's trying to capture territory.
Adam Harstad (00:38:58):
It's trying to get a receiver into an unoccupied space by the defense so that it can complete a pass and progress the football, and then the defense has its seven defenders and it's trying to defend this territory. And really there are usually on most plays seven guys in coverage versus five guys in pass patterns and yet the offense wins more than the defense. And the big reason why is because the offense knows what it's going to do, it knows where it's going.
Adam Harstad (00:39:23):
It has that informational advantage and especially quarterbacks, Peyton Manning famously could read the defense before the snap and know what it was going to do. And so, it was much easier for Peyton Manning to win that particular blotto game than an average quarterback, because he had this fore knowledge of how the defense was going to be deploying its troops, what battlefields it would be contesting and which battlefields it would be leaving relatively open.
Rob Collie (00:39:43):
Have you been exposed to the concept of reactive armor?
Adam Harstad (00:39:47):
No, I haven't.
Rob Collie (00:39:48):
To me it's genius and it's only something that the Russians would have come up with and they had it back in the Cold War. If we look at the information advantage that the giant metal dart fired from NATO tanks has, it only has to worry about the place where it hits. All of its work is concentrated on this little square centimeter or whatever of armor that it impacts. And all that other armor is useless. All that weight that the tank's been carrying around, except for this one little column of metal that's in front of the dart, all the other stuff doesn't participate in his interaction at all.
Rob Collie (00:40:27):
And the Russians said, that's the problem, so when we get hit with a dart, we're going to have an explosive go off within our armor and slide the armor sideways in that section so that it's constantly feeding fresh metal into the interaction. It's crazy. And when the iron curtain came down, when the Berlin wall fell and NATO took some modern Soviet tanks out and tested them to know if the darts would go through, this armor stopped everything. And what was the predictable NATO response given the way that we think?
Rob Collie (00:41:04):
Just make the darts longer. But we see this, the defenses that are able to react like in football, more nimbly and quickly to what they see in front of them are the ones that are... There's no overpowering the offense when the offense has the information advantage, even though you have more players.
Adam Harstad (00:41:25):
There's one aspect of the defense, the pass rush actually is the whole situations are reversed when it comes to defending the quarterback. It's the offense that is on defense so to speak, that's reacting. And it's the defense that gets to choose, we're going to pass, rush these players. They don't know who's going to be rushing. We're going to rush from these angles, we'll be doing stunts to try and create confusion. So, for the most part, on a grand level, of course, it's the offense that's reacting.
Adam Harstad (00:41:48):
But it's interesting that there's also that sub competition at the same time where the defense has the first mover advantage. And if you look at player salaries, they largely reflect that. The players who get paid the highest are the wide receivers who have the informational advantage against defenses and then they're the defensive ends who have the informational advantage against offensive lines.
Rob Collie (00:42:11):
Interesting.
Tom Larock (00:42:14):
Every sport is action reaction.
Adam Harstad (00:42:17):
Yeah.
Tom Larock (00:42:18):
All right. Every sport is action reaction. What I find interesting about football is, and it's probably because it's easier to see a mistake in football, I think than in other sports. And to me, football is always, maybe it's because I hang around Patriots more often, and this is why I watch it's about just limiting mistakes. You already know, Peyton Manning, he's already figured it out and he's already got a play. He already knows what to do to get a few yards. Your job is to make sure he only gets those few yards.
Tom Larock (00:42:51):
So you limit the mistakes that you're about to make, and you keep the play in front of you. And I think when it comes to other sports, I think baseball, the obvious mistakes, somebody falls down, but there's a lot of base running mistakes. Like I didn't take the extra base like I could have. Things like that, that you don't really see unless you're really in tune with the game. Basketball is the same where mistakes are made. The obvious one, I dribbled off my leg, but the not so obvious one is you didn't set a good enough screen.
Rob Collie (00:43:18):
Well, the consequences. The consequences are so high in football. A mistake in football can have ungodly implications. Whereas the worst thing that can happen in a basketball play is the other team scores, three points, four points. They score something like 4% of their total for the game and then the slate is clean again.
Adam Harstad (00:43:34):
Well, by that standard it would be soccer. That's the worst because the consequences of mistakes in soccer are catastrophic.
Rob Collie (00:43:39):
Yes. I concur. For example, headbutting the opposing player in the final minutes of the World Cup final, because he insulted your sister or something. To me that is the most leap off the couch moment in all my sports watching history-
Tom Larock (00:43:57):
Really?
Rob Collie (00:43:57):
...was when Zidane headbutted that guy and got ejected.
Tom Larock (00:44:00):
Not when Tyson chewed Evander's ear off?
Rob Collie (00:44:05):
No, because you know what? Two whole nations hung in the balance at that moment. Who cares about two guys punching each other? This is national pride.
Tom Larock (00:44:15):
He wasn’t punching him, Rob, he chewed his ear off in the rain.
Rob Collie (00:44:19):
That's fine. Zidane's headbutt still takes it for me.
Tom Larock (00:44:22):
No, that's fair. Yeah, that was a remarkable moment.
Adam Harstad (00:44:26):
I Agree. The consequences of a mistake. What's the max mistake?
Tom Larock (00:44:30):
In business it's the same thing because you want to mitigate risk. There's a lot of parallels where you're going to do these things and you know that say, Excel, isn't going to ship in time. What's the risk that we're after falling behind other competing products? We can do three of the four things in order to ship on time. The one thing that we're not going to do is going to be the least costly for whatever, but that's how the world works. It's not always about being perfect, it's about making sure that your shortcomings, your mistakes are limited.
Rob Collie (00:45:04):
Adam, you said that at the beginning that you have a saying at your house, Harstads try new things. I don't think we've ever really codified it, but we like to say Collies play offense. In business, it makes sense to play some defense for sure. Defense is also like the luxury of businesses that are already successful. On the way up, you can't defense your way to the top. You've got to offense your way to position of value with your customers.
Rob Collie (00:45:34):
We don't have to talk about it as an adversarial conquest thing. You have to create something in order to stand out, you have to create something in order to change the world. I think business is inherently again, until you reach the top and become the monopoly and then suddenly you're like, 'Yeah, build walls, build walls." Except for those rare cases, it's always about create. It's always about leaning forward and being on the creation side, the offensive side of the game. And even as a life philosophy, members of my family, my extended family, they play the game of life.
Rob Collie (00:46:06):
You could capture their strategy as, "Avoid disappointment. Don't do that. Don't live like that." In football if you wanted a quarterback that never throws any interceptions, I'm your guy. You can hire me. I'll go out there and spike it into the ground every single play and collect my money. You want a zero interception quarterback.
Tom Larock (00:46:27):
I'm the guy.
Rob Collie (00:46:27):
I am the optimal quarterback for you. I'm pretty sure that even at 47 years old, I can get the ball into the ground before the defense gets to me.
Tom Larock (00:46:35):
Just three QB sneaks.
Rob Collie (00:46:37):
No, no, no sneaks. That's dangerous. No, no. I'm not going to be... Mm-mm (Negative). I'm going to be running away from everybody and throwing it into the ground.
Adam Harstad (00:46:44):
It's really interesting you bring that up because there's a lot of research now that everybody used to think of sacks as a defensive line offensive line thing, but there's a huge body of research at this point that sacks really are a risk tolerance thing for a quarterback. Some quarterbacks will accept more pressure trying to get a playoff and others are more risk adverse and they'll get the ball away quicker. And so, the famous example, I use at this is, there are two quarterbacks in history who have had two seasons in the top 10 all time in soccer percentage.
Adam Harstad (00:47:13):
One of them is Dan Marino, very famously able to get the ball out quickly and avoid sacks. And the other one is Joey Harrington, who is very famously one of the biggest quarterback busts of all time. Basically nobody has avoided sacks as well as Joey Harrington avoided sacks. And that wasn't a good play.
Tom Larock (00:47:30):
Because he's not playing?
Adam Harstad (00:47:31):
Because he's not playing. He's unwilling to accept any risk at all. As soon as the pressure got anywhere near him, the ball is in the stance and his offense was horrible because they couldn't gain any positive gains because he was unwilling to accept that risk. And he wrote a really interesting piece after he retired about how, "My career was not a failure."
Adam Harstad (00:47:50):
And he talked about, "When I was in Detroit, I was asking my head coach for permission to take risks. And I just never felt like he was behind me and he was willing to let me fail. And so I was always too scared of something bad happening to really try to make something good happen." But yeah, if you look at the quarterback performances that correlate to quarterback quality, things like interception percentage are basically meaningless.
Adam Harstad (00:48:11):
At the very extremes, good quarterbacks tend to throw slightly fewer interceptions than bad quarterbacks, but it's not a very pronounced difference. The big difference is that good quarterbacks make a lot more positive plays. They get a lot more yards per attempt, they throw a lot more touchdowns and sometimes they'll have some negative plays mixed in there as the risk that they're taking. It's that level of risk that they're willing to tolerate to get that offense.
Rob Collie (00:48:35):
Let's go back to Joey Harrington and Detroit for a moment because when we were earlier talking about let's model the history of highly drafted rookie wide receivers, and I was going to make the joke, but it's not just a joke, there was some truth to it. Well, part of the decision tree needs to be well, are they being drafted in Detroit? And they did. They burned a lot of draft capital on highly touted players. And only one of them, as far as I know, really even came close. Megatron. He was the real deal.
Rob Collie (00:49:05):
But all those other people, how many people did they draft in the first? It was at least two or three, right? And none of them went anywhere.
Adam Harstad (00:49:11):
I think they took four receivers in the top 10 in five years. I think that Charles Rogers, who was one of the biggest busts of all time. Roy Williams, the wide receiver, who was okay and they traded him to Dallas and they recouped a lot of his costs. Mike Williams, who was another big bust and Calvin Johnson. Four in five years, and it became a running joke. But the thing is the fourth one was Calvin Johnson and he was probably the best pick of that era.
Adam Harstad (00:49:38):
There's a lot of sunk cost fallacy that we've tried this three times, we've tried drafting wide receivers and it hasn't worked out. I think a lot of people would have cut their losses and said, "I won't deal with that ridicule of picking another one." But to their credit, they stuck to their board and they said, "This guy is the best prospect on the board." And a lot of drafts success and failure, I think far more than people would believe is just randomness.
Adam Harstad (00:50:02):
Any team that had been on the clock at the number two pick when Charles Rogers was there would have taken Charles Rogers because he was the best wide receiver prospect, maybe one of the best ones of all time. Possibly the best-
Rob Collie (00:50:13):
Maybe.
Adam Harstad (00:50:13):
...wide receiver prospect of all time. And everybody thought that. It wasn't a contrarian pick. That was the chalk pick and it's just Detroit happened to be the team that had that number two pick.
Rob Collie (00:50:23):
Yeah, but I wanted to explore the possibility that he might've succeeded elsewhere. We were just talking about Joey Harrington not having the support of his coaches. There's clearly been something culturally rotten with the Detroit franchise for a while, or at least that's an easy narrative to paint and we don't actually know, we don't get to run the experiment. The Charles Rogers experiment. We only got to run it once with one set of variables and that's in Detroit in that era. I agree with you though, on the sunk cost thing.
Rob Collie (00:50:53):
Being able to distinguish the difference between a sunk cost situation and a pot committed situation is one of the hardest and most valuable things to do in life. Sometimes you can cut your losses and that is the right move. It's silly to think of it that way when you're making picks, it would be really silly to think that wide receivers are terrible, we should never do that again. That would be a bad strategy. Let's drill in for a moment.
Rob Collie (00:51:18):
In poker, there are decision points in a game where you only have a 20% chance of winning the pot, but it still makes sense for you to continue and invest more money because the value of what's in the pot is so great, the expected value is positive. The one time you win out of five or whatever, will pay off so heavily that it doesn't matter. It pays for all the losses. Sometimes you have sunk costs.
Rob Collie (00:51:42):
Sometimes it's like, no, no, just because I threw $80 in there doesn't mean I should throw another 20 and distinguishing between those two circumstances, I think there's a lot of that in business, a lot of that in life is like, which situation am I in? Am I on the road to potential success and I need to put that next piece of incremental investment or effort in? Versus, no, let's not keep chasing a bad bet. There's no formula for this. There's no formula in life for being able to distinguish between the two, but the better you get at it, the more successful you're going to be.
Adam Harstad (00:52:15):
And that's another situation where poker, it's much easier because the possibility space is so constrained. In poker, you can just do the math and you can say, I'm pot committed or that's all sunk costs. There's a right answer in poker. And that right is knowable. The range of possible outcomes in investing a stock is it's worth nothing or it's the next Facebook. The range is so huge. There's no way to know in advance. That's another one where I like these contrived arbitrary games with their clearly defined rules, because I think they set themselves up to analysis so much more nicely.
Rob Collie (00:52:49):
Well, and they also set themselves up to be great metaphors for the more complicated playground of real life. I think they very purely, sometimes anyway, very purely participate in the forms that we see with infinite noise in the real world. It helps me as a learning tool, but yeah, in order for it to even exist, you have to constrain it like you do in sport. We can't let this go without mentioning the haiku. My personal favorite interaction with Adam on Twitter was when we were, I think you started it, Adam. It wasn't my idea. I participated.
Rob Collie (00:53:21):
I made my one contribution, but there was a whole thread years ago of football haiku, which is exactly what you expect. An analytically minded football Twitter account, we're going to start writing haikus. That's exactly what everybody would expect.
Adam Harstad (00:53:38):
That's why I say, the narrative guys think I'm a data guy and the data guys think I'm a narrative guy. And I always say, "I'm just a storyteller."
Rob Collie (00:53:45):
You're doing it right. If either extreme is painting you into the other corner, I think that's a sign that you're over the target. You're taking flack from both sides. Well, that's where you need to be.
Adam Harstad (00:53:56):
In general, I tend to think the things I believe are correct, because if I didn't think that I wouldn't believe them.
Rob Collie (00:53:59):
That's really funny. Isn't it? And that's strange.
Adam Harstad (00:54:03):
Yeah. It's weird how that works out.
Rob Collie (00:54:05):
You could almost extrapolate that to everyone. Everyone works that way-
Adam Harstad (00:54:09):
It's true.
Rob Collie (00:54:10):
...which is really frightening, and validating at the same time, I suppose. It's all about uncertainty, navigating uncertainty. I think that's the thing that we were talking about with the NFL draft and things like that. No one really knows anything. No one knows what's about to happen. I love that at P3, now we're up to a 14-person fantasy football league and advertised it to the team as Basket of Virtual Volatile Assets, BVBA, that's what we're really calling it. That's the game we're playing. it happens to use football, but it's not really fantasy football. It's BVBA.
Rob Collie (00:54:47):
And most people who are playing with us have played before, but there's a few people who haven't and so, I'm putting together a primer for them. My PowerPoint deck is in progress with the animations and everything. And the very first slide in this is going to be a collection of predictions for the year, rankings, projected rankings of players and which teams are going to be good and all that. And then there's the giant word, ha-ha, over the top. It's all wrong. It's not even going to survive a week. And every year crazy things happen.
Rob Collie (00:55:20):
A player that we're not even talking about right now is going to be crucial to fantasy football success this year. A team, it isn't even a trendy team to be good out of the 32 teams. No one's picking to certainly improve is going to improve massively. It is such uncertainty and when I finally arrived at, in terms of my relatively successful, I did not want to play fantasy football in the league with Adam.
Rob Collie (00:55:46):
I'm not going to be that guy, and home leagues level of success, home and work league type of success is that it's just going in and just saying, "Look, my entire strategy is going to be based around the idea, the admission that none of us know anything." And you actually behave differently when you accept that. You make different decisions. It's not just about expectations.
Rob Collie (00:56:12):
You decide differently, and one of the things that I've seen that I've been doing for a long time and it's been good to me when I start listening now, like this year, I've really been listening to a lot of podcasts about fantasy football, it's the first year I've ever done this. And it's so amazing to see how widespread this notion is, that we really primarily only care about the best possible outcomes. When you're playing a zero sum game where you're one out of 12 or one out of 14, in order to win, you need exceptional things to happen in your favor.
Rob Collie (00:56:42):
And you need to maximize your chances of getting those exceptional things. To use a baseball metaphor, singles and doubles aren't going to win you the title. You need to be hitting triples and home runs and the nature of football, plus, I find this emotionally satisfying, it's like prospecting for gold. I'm not going to be drafting players or picking players who I know to be predictably mediocre. I'm going to be drafting and selecting for best possible range of outcomes and if they turn out to not be exceptional then I'm going to get rid of them.
Rob Collie (00:57:12):
This isn't genius, this isn't some new strategy. I hope that people at our company who are going to be competing in fantasy football against me aren't listening. but some of them probably are. I used to think that I might actually be able to pick players. You can't predict what's going to happen in an NFL season. It's crazy. And I love that.
Adam Harstad (00:57:29):
Real quick, I want to push back. You were saying you put up the list of rankings and then you were saying, "Ha-ha, they won't even last a week." Actually, empirically I found pretty consistently looking at it over the last 10 years that preseason ADP average draft position, the order that players were drafted in before the season better predicts rest of year performance than current year to date performance does until about week four. And that's when they retract parody.
Adam Harstad (00:57:56):
They will last a week. They'll last approximately four weeks, is one way to look at it. Or I guess another way to look at it is if you just drafted off of last year's order of finish minus guys who retired or who are clearly injured, things like that, that will be more predictive of year to date production up until about week three. My stance is everything we do in the off season, all of the analysis, all of the... Everything buys us one more week before we're wrong. If we did none of that, we could make it till week three before your due date was more powerful.
Adam Harstad (00:58:28):
But by doing all of that, it buys us one extra week before we're wrong.
Rob Collie (00:58:33):
That's amazing.
Adam Harstad (00:58:34):
In that sense, it does get you one extra week.
Rob Collie (00:58:36):
I just got snared on my own flare for hyperbole.
Adam Harstad (00:58:42):
I just figured you would like to put some numbers to it.
Rob Collie (00:58:43):
And I wouldn’t have been able to do that.
Adam Harstad (00:58:45):
And now you can.
Rob Collie (00:58:46):
Now we absolutely can. I loved that your arc so far in life goes from some sort of genius to the niche where I know nothing. There's something truly delicious about that and evolutionary.
Adam Harstad (00:59:02):
The fool thinks himself wise and the wise man knows he's a pool.
Rob Collie (00:59:04):
Exactly. And you can never pronounce yourself cured of this, of this disease because the moment you do now, you're back to the trap. You can never pronounce yourself healthy in this regard. It requires vigilance, constant vigilance and constant growth. But I like to think that I've had a similar arc, I've been on a similar arc from the know it all to know nothing and becoming comfortable with that. Did you watch Ted Lasso?
Adam Harstad (00:59:31):
I've seen the first season, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:32):
The speech he gives about be curious in the bar right before he kicks the guy's ass in darts?
Adam Harstad (00:59:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:38):
I found that to be one of my top 10 favorite moments of anything I've seen on any screen, was that sequence. Be curious.
Adam Harstad (00:59:46):
The cool thing about being wrong, it sucks being wrong, there's that whole ego threat where we identify ourselves with our positions and it's hard to get past that, even somebody like me, who's had so much experience being wrong. There's that ego threat that I don't want to be wrong, but the cool thing about being wrong, it's the first step to stopping, being wrong. You can't stop being wrong until you realize you're wrong in the first place.
Rob Collie (01:00:09):
It is a very difficult thing to come to terms with. I'm much better at it than I used to be. That's the only thing I'm comfortable saying. Again, I got to be careful. You can't be the one that says, "Yeah, I used to be like that, but I'm not like that anymore." "Yes you are."
Adam Harstad (01:00:26):
It's like modesty. It's impossible to declare yourself modest. That's right. I am probably the most modest person you've had on this show. If I'm being honest here. Overwhelming modesty.
Rob Collie (01:00:38):
If I say modesty is not my strong suit, am I being modest?
Adam Harstad (01:00:42):
I can self-deprecate better than anyone. I'm the most self-deprecating person you'll ever meet.
Rob Collie (01:00:50):
You know this from an emotional standpoint even from past years. After one week of play, you still would want to draft very differently based on what you saw.
Adam Harstad (01:01:00):
I think that's a trap though.
Rob Collie (01:01:01):
I agree.
Adam Harstad (01:01:01):
Yes. Emotionally people way overweight and their priors aren't weighted enough. They're reacting too much to new evidence and that's why I write that piece every year around week four and I say, "It might surprise you to know that pre-season ADP at this point still has every bit as much predictive power." Now, obviously some blend between the two, a mix of pre-season ADP plus year to date results will outperform either alone, but it's really a lesson about not discarding what we thought we knew just because somebody makes a huge, impressive catch on Monday night football.
Rob Collie (01:01:32):
Well, let me see if I can make a subtle, not a point, but a question. There are situations where we can talk about this is our best possible tool. It's 40% better than chance at doing something. You'd still be better off betting, if you could bet the field, if you could bet against the predictions, you'd still do better. There's a weird, subtle distinction there between best possible predictive power, which is factual, empirical and at the same time betting that it was wrong. The ha-ha still has some less than truth to it.
Adam Harstad (01:02:08):
Yeah. I'd say my entire niche in the industry and it's a weird niche to occupy, but I think my entire niche is just I'm the guy who knows nothing. I just aggressively embrace that uncertainty and rather than trying to know more things, I feel like I try to expound the limits of the things that I don't know. It really does change the way that you play and you manage your teams. And one example, one of my favorite things that I've done is about six years back, I looked at how players age and the popular conception of how players age is something called an age curve.
Adam Harstad (01:02:44):
You enter, you improve for three or four years, you hit your peak, you maintain your peak for however many years, depends on your position. And then you decline and then you're out of the league. And if you plot all those points together, it looks like a curve. And there's a lot of ways to drive this curve. If you average performance at every player age, it'll make this beautiful curve. And the age curve is an example of thinking that you know something. If you look at a player, the age curve will say, this player is going to do this this year, this next year, this next year, this the year after that.
Adam Harstad (01:03:12):
He's going to be out of the league at this age. It represents certainty and I never liked age curves because if you actually look at NFL careers, very, very rarely do they take on a curve shape. There's a lot of fluctuating, a lot of up and down. There's very few players who I would look at their career and say, a curve really describes what's happening here. And so, I gathered 30 years worth of data about year to year fantasy football value. And I said, "Let's try to make a mortality table out of this instead."
Adam Harstad (01:03:42):
If you're familiar with life insurance, in life insurance, they're basically making a bet for a life insurer that you will survive to this age. You'll survive to that age, but it's not a curve. It's not like you're 80% alive at age 64. You're still either a hundred percent alive or you're a hundred percent dead. It's a very binary state. They do tables that look at it probabilistically. And I looked at NFL player careers. And so, one thing is if careers are curve shaped, you would expect a player's last relevant season to be worse than his second to last relevant season, on average.
Adam Harstad (01:04:13):
But I looked at the top hundred wide receivers and running backs of the last 30 years and it was about 50, 50. 50% of them did better in their last season, 50% of them did worse than their last season before they just fell out of relevance completely. And so, I did, I modeled and I found that I think the mortality table is actually a pretty good fit for what's happening is players are basically reaching their true level of play. They ascend, they learn the position and then they reach their true level of play.
Adam Harstad (01:04:39):
And once they reach that level of play, they pretty much maintain that level of play. They'll have up years, they'll have down years, but they're fluctuating around that true level of play until at some point and usually without any warning whatsoever, they just fall off completely. They're great. They're great. They're great. They're done. And when you start thinking about aging like that, this wide receiver is 31, so I expect him to be a little bit worse than he was last year, and it's more, this wide receiver is 31, so I expect him probably to be about as good as last year or also maybe he will be completely useless.
Rob Collie (01:05:11):
Love it.
Adam Harstad (01:05:12):
And the way you manage your risks is very different. When an age curve would tell you that a 28-year-old wide receiver is a very safe bet. He's still on the upslope of his curve. He's going to get better or he's going to maintain, you have years before you have to worry about him disappearing. And you look at Dez Bryant who is an All-Pro wide receiver, never did anything after age 28. He was done and an age curve would never predict that. Whereas a mortality table would say, it's unlikely, but this is well within the range of possibilities.
Adam Harstad (01:05:40):
I played dynasty leagues where you keep your players from year to year, basically indefinitely, and it really makes you hyper aware of the risks involved. You never enter a season thinking that you're set at any position because you look and you're like, "Well, there's a 20% chance that this guy's just done. There's a 10% chance that this guy is just done." You add up all of those chances across everyone. And a lot of guys on my roster are never going to have another good season again.
Adam Harstad (01:06:06):
And on the flip side, sometimes you're more likely to take a chance on old players because well, everybody thinks he's in the decline. Julio Jones would be a great example this year. Everybody thinks he's going to be worse this year, but maybe he's not. Maybe he's just exactly as good as he has been for another five years. That's in the range of possibilities. It's unlikely, but it's not fundamentally unforeseeable outcome.
Rob Collie (01:06:31):
This tickles two ideas from daily life, whatever. One is, I have a joke, which is the average has a population of zero. When you were describing the curves, this is the aggregate average of everything. All the players that have ever lived. That curve never describes any one player.
Adam Harstad (01:06:52):
It's called the ecological fallacy, if you want a name for it.
Rob Collie (01:06:58):
Ecological fallacy. I think you'll appreciate this. From the business side for a very, very, very long time, honestly, even to this day, really, this still persists a lot of companies, they have their top number. They have their top level number for whatever metric it is, profit margin or customer retention or whatever. They know what their all up number for the entire company is, but they lack the ability to decompose it into the various segments of their business. If they've got 50 salespeople out there, what's the average win rate for a deal?
Rob Collie (01:07:28):
Now, let's say it's 25%. But if you go look at the 50 salespeople, none of them are at 25%. You've got some that are down at 3%, and then you've got a handful of outliers at 45% and you're not learning anything. There's no way to improve. One of our core philosophies is you need to know your top level number. You absolutely do. You need to know what your final score is, but the game is improvement. It's not knowing.
Rob Collie (01:07:54):
Knowing is a necessary step for improvement and you cannot improve unless you're able to effortlessly subsegment and see what's really going on to focus your attention in the right places. There's different prescriptions for different places. And so, when you're talking about this curve versus mortality risk, I was lighting up like, "Yeah." And the other thing that I've been wrestling with and really just torturing some of my friends with for a long time is this notion of single trial experiments and probabilistic models applied to single trials.
Rob Collie (01:08:27):
Julio Jones isn't going to have an 80% season probably. He's not 80% relevant or 80% still in the league. He's either going to have a good season probably or vanish from relevance. Probabilistic models of who wins the election. I know that's our best tool for predicting who's going to win an election, but there's something fundamentally silly about saying that someone has an 85% chance to win the election. They're not going to 85% win ever. They're going to win or they're going to lose.
Rob Collie (01:08:56):
And so, we need to come to terms with that, so when it's wrong, when something like that is wrong, it's more wrong than 15% wrong, in my opinion. Anyway, we don't need to pick that fight. I've done that a million times, a million different people.
Adam Harstad (01:09:11):
Nassim Taleb versus Nate Silver debate.
Rob Collie (01:09:13):
Yeah. I Think I'm on the Nassim Taleb side of that debate.
Adam Harstad (01:09:16):
I tend to be more with Nate Silver, where on any given prediction, you can't know if it was a good or bad prediction, but over a large enough sample, you can test your calibration. And if the things that you say will happen, 15% of the time are happening 15% of the time, I don't think it says anything about the predictions themselves, but I think it says something about you as a predictor being fairly well calibrated.
Rob Collie (01:09:38):
Sure, but of course, all that matters to me is its accuracy and of course that includes both the predictor and the methodology.
Adam Harstad (01:09:45):
Well, here's an interesting thought experiment. Let's say we have two different models. We'll go back to Ja'Marr Chase, rookie wide receiver for the Bengals, and we have two different models and these models are both extremely well calibrated. And you feed them different inputs and they will tell you what percent chance a player has of becoming a Hall of Famer. And we've tested these models, and we know, let's just say by faith that these models we're going to stipulate that they're extraordinarily well calibrated.
Adam Harstad (01:10:11):
And one model says that Ja'Marr Chase has a 15% chance of becoming a Hall of Fame wide receiver, and another model that he has a 40% chance of becoming a Hall of Fame wide receiver, because it's looking at different inputs and those inputs predict different chances. You know what are Ja'Marr Chase's true chances of becoming a Hall of Fame wide receiver? Is it 15%? Is it 40%? Is it somewhere between the two? If he does become, how right or wrong was each prediction? If he doesn't become, how right or wrong was each prediction?
Adam Harstad (01:10:40):
Two predictions, those can both be right. It seems fundamentally in conflict that one person says he has a 15% chance, one person says he has a 40% chance and both can be right at the same time, and yet it is. We're stipulating upfront that both are right. And I think when you grapple with data and especially predictive data, you need to develop a certain comfort level with that ambiguity, with we're just never going to know. We never will know. And there's no way we possibly could know, because as you say, it's a single run trial. We can't rerun it.
Adam Harstad (01:11:12):
But if we're aggressively testing our calibration and we're working hard and making sure that the things that we're saying are correlating with reality to some extent or another, it's almost like you're not really having faith in the predictor so much as you're having faith in the process to produce results that will have meaning and add value.
Rob Collie (01:11:32):
The most sophisticated version of my objection to all of this is actually, and not to what you were saying. I completely agree with the things you were saying. The most refined version of my objection to Nate Silver is that I think the domain he's applying these methods to is exactly the wrong one to give these methods a positive reputation, because here's the thing, on the eve of the election, the universe, this is can be a little weird. We're going to have to get a little weird to explain it, but the universe actually knows who's going to win.
Rob Collie (01:12:03):
There's no chance that it's going to swing 85, 15% tomorrow. That's not going to happen. We already know. The universe knows. Whereas in the case of Ja'Marr Chase, I can make this fuzzy argument that even the universe doesn't know if Ja'Marr Chase is going to be successful.
Adam Harstad (01:12:18):
I don't know if I took that argument. I have a thread on this on Twitter. That's saying basically what you’re saying. If I flip a coin and I say, "What are the odds that this coin comes up heads?" First, you want to know if the coin is biased, assume it's a fair coin. It comes up heads 50% of the time. I flip a coin. I say, "What are the odds this comes up heads?" You're going to tell me 50-50.
Adam Harstad (01:12:36):
If I were flipping this coin in front of some alien superintelligence who was so innately good at physics that he could divine from the starting point and the forces involved and wind resistance, he could tell with absolute certainty, which side was going to come up. He'd either say a hundred percent heads or 0% tails. And again, both of you are right. You say 50-50, you're correct. The alien says a hundred percent or 0%. If he's well calibrated, he's also correct. Fundamentally odds are not measuring anything intrinsic to the event itself.
Adam Harstad (01:13:06):
Odds are a measure of our ignorance surrounding the event itself. And people will get different odds for different things because they have different levels of ignorance. If I hold up a card from a deck facing me and I say, "What are the chances this card is an ace?" You're going to give me one number. If I then show you 13 cards from the deck and say, "What are the chances these cards are an ace?" You're going to give me a different number. The card itself hasn't changed.
Rob Collie (01:13:29):
I know.
Adam Harstad (01:13:30):
The odds are really meaningless to the card itself. They're just a measure of your level of knowledge and what you know. The odds are saying more about you than they're saying about the card.
Rob Collie (01:13:39):
Well, let me push back a little bit. Let's take your alien intelligence coin flip example. And instead, have it be a billiard ball on a frictionless surface or damn near frictionless surface, so that we could make the billiard ball bounce off of the rails 40 or 50 times. Once you get that number of collisions, maybe 50 isn't sufficient, maybe it takes a hundred.
Rob Collie (01:14:01):
Once you get the number of collisions high enough, even the alien intelligence won't be able to predict where it ends up at the end of a hundred bounces because even the quantum uncertainty and the vibration of the ball magnifies to great enough difference that you don't end up in the same place.
Adam Harstad (01:14:15):
Well, but the quantum uncertainty, that's what I'm saying. Again, the odds are a measure of our own uncertainty.
Rob Collie (01:14:20):
Completely.
Adam Harstad (01:14:20):
So if you increase the alien's uncertainty, you're going to decrease the odds [inaudible 01:14:24].
Rob Collie (01:14:24):
Okay. But I'm saying, the distinction between the two. No amount of tomorrow uncertainty is going to change the outcome of the election. All that uncertainty balances itself out, large numbers. Whoever wins the election was going to win the election in a million sub universes or a billion sub... Whatever. They're going to win on all of them. Whereas Ja'Marr Chase, I think even the universe with perfect knowledge, you don't actually know. There's too many branching points in the equation of whether he turns into...
Rob Collie (01:14:52):
And this is why I think intuitively the masses have a point when they make fun of Nate Silver getting it wrong. Whereas they would be more accepting of the Ja'Marr Chase Hall of Fame percentage. We understand it's uncertain, but they get that there was a more wrongness about the election prediction than there is about the Ja'Marr Chase prediction.
Adam Harstad (01:15:15):
Yeah. I think the famous quote is, "All models are wrong, some are useful." And that's the question, any model. What you're getting at, I think is, there's something called epistemic uncertainty and something called aleatory uncertainty. I know you like learning new-
Rob Collie (01:15:31):
[crosstalk 01:15:31]. Oh my God. Write these down, Luke, I need to...
Adam Harstad (01:15:35):
Epistemic uncertainty is things that are theoretically knowable, we just don't know them. And I think you're suggesting that an election outcome, the day before that's epistemic uncertainty. This is fundamentally knowable. We just don't know it. And the odds that we're assigning are representing that epistemic uncertainty and aleatory uncertainty is irreducible uncertainty. It's even if we knew absolutely everything, this is fundamentally unknowable, it's irreducible.
Adam Harstad (01:16:03):
And it seems to me that you're suggesting that probabilistic forecasts in the case of aleatory uncertainty are okay. Something like Ja'Marr Chase is going to make the Hall of Fame, he won't make the Hall of Fame. Here's this chance. Whereas in the realm of epistemic uncertainty, you're saying there's just something hinky about them. There's something fundamentally weird uncomfortable.
Rob Collie (01:16:23):
It's not that they're not okay. It's just that they're a little less okay.
Adam Harstad (01:16:27):
It's fundamentally different.
Rob Collie (01:16:28):
An 85% number about something that is only going to be zero or a hundred, and I believe we'll be the same zero or a hundred, no matter what happens in between now and then, there's something very funky about even bothering to put a number. It's like the illusion of confidence. It's the illusion of precision. 85.6%. Not 0.5%, 0.6%, Nate? It's like what you were saying earlier like, when you're deep into analytics, you also have to maintain that other wisdom.
Rob Collie (01:16:59):
I just think Nate Silver in particular, this forecasting, the result of a national election, it's just the worst possible poster child for the analytics industry. We're drawn to it. We look at it like crazy, but just the worst place to have our reputations as professionals displayed.
Adam Harstad (01:17:16):
Yeah. It's funny. Footballguys, we obviously the people who write for Footballguys who are big into fantasy football we're pretty fluent with data and probabilities because what you're saying about your BVBA, that's basically data and probabilities. That's what fantasy football is. And we had a really interesting discussion after the 2016 election where some people were saying Nate Silver was very, very wrong because he said there was only a 36% chance. And other people were saying everybody else had the chances at 1% to 10%.
Adam Harstad (01:17:45):
Nate Silver was the only one out there saying there's a very real chance. 36% might not sound that much, but it's about the odds of a kicker missing a 48-yard field goal. If your team is lining up to kick a go ahead field goal from 48 yards with time expiring, how comfortable are you? That's what 36% feels like. It happens a lot, 36% of the time in fact. It's interesting that even in a place that's so comfortable dealing with risk and probability, there's still that fundamental divide and I think it really boils down to the appropriateness of putting numbers on epistemic versus aleatory uncertainty.
Rob Collie (01:18:20):
And I was with you for a long time that there's this over precision, but Phil Tetlock, I don't know if you're familiar with him, works on a project called The Good Judgment Project. And he wrote a book called Super Forecasting. And basically the CIA had this forecasting competition. They have a hundred questions. Here is this Middle Eastern country. What are the chances that they're going to suffer a coup in the next seven years? And Tetlock basically his approach to it was this wisdom of the crowd approach. A modified wisdom of the crowd.
Rob Collie (01:18:49):
Is he had a bunch of people making predictions, and then over time he saw that some people were more consistently right and so he started weighting their predictions more and more. And eventually he came up with this group of people who were definitely out predicting everybody else, usually with no specific domain expertise. And he named them super forecasters and then he's done a lot of studies about what makes these people so good at predicting basically one off events. And he found that when you look at the precision, the precision is meaningful.
Rob Collie (01:19:17):
If a super forecaster says there's an 83% chance that there's going to be a coup in this country versus an 80% chance, instead of just rounding to the nearest 10, he finds that that 3% is meaningful. That ignoring that 3% makes the aggregation worse, makes the outcomes less predictive. And so, I would say that for the most part, I'm skeptical of that appearance of certainty and that appearance of precision, just because most people are not super forecasters, but I have become more open to the possibility that actually no, that 0.3% might be doing some real work there.
Adam Harstad (01:19:50):
Yeah. I think the distinction again, when I'm not being just bombastic about it, when I'm really clear about it. My only objection here really is the reputational risk inherent.
Rob Collie (01:20:03):
Which is fair.
Adam Harstad (01:20:04):
I do want, if we're going to be making predictions, of course I want the methodology to be rigorous, if you're not artificial about it, the methodology that produces more precise numbers probably has more internal checks in the first place. It probably is the process that you use to arrive at that number was probably a superior process to the one that arrives at the round number. I'm okay with the methodology part of it. It's just that when we put it out in the public, it's the old nerds versus jerks argument all over again.
Adam Harstad (01:20:34):
But now we're in our middle age and the whole notion of using data to do things gets cheapened every time we put an 85% number on an election, and then it's either a much closer than expected or it goes the other way. I just wish again, for reputational reasons only, it's the rear view mirror, not the forward only allowed three predictions for an election. This person wins, that person wins, too close to call.
Tom Larock (01:21:00):
I just want to say, Rob, I'm not going to disagree with anything you've said, but what you're missing is the fact that 86% of Americans don't understand what the P value really means. Your talk about, this is a bad thing to put in front of people, but the real thing is, is that Nate Silver goes out and he describes things as if people understand what these concepts are and they really don't.
Rob Collie (01:21:29):
I'm saying two things. One is that you go to war with the army you've got right. The population that you've got. And so, they don't understand P value is great. But the other thing I'm saying is that there's something also fundamentally meaningless about his P value. It's because of this different aleatory versus pistemological, was that it?
Tom Larock (01:21:46):
Episcopalian, I thought.
Rob Collie (01:21:48):
[crosstalk 01:21:48].
Tom Larock (01:21:48):
Episcopalian
Rob Collie (01:21:52):
Epistemic.
Adam Harstad (01:21:54):
If I can have one rebuttal.
Rob Collie (01:21:56):
Of course, we'll give you the last word.
Adam Harstad (01:21:58):
I'm very, very respectful of arguments that it's not enough to be right, it's are you advancing the cause? I think trying to think tactically, that's a very important skill to have, but I would also say, I don't think that there's been anybody in America who has done more for the understanding and acceptance of analytics, than Nate Silver over the last decade. I think the public is much more open to conversant in the language of analytics and I think that stems primarily to Nate Silver in FiveThirtyEight in his election forecasting.
Adam Harstad (01:22:32):
Maybe the 2016 election was a setback, but I think on the whole, he's been a very positive, because I see it in fantasy football too. Just the acceptance of alternate data sources. 15 years ago, you mentioned Football Outsiders and people dismiss you out of hand. Nowadays you get random people off the street who are citing DVOA and EPA per play to you. And I think Nate Silver was a big part of that revolution.
Rob Collie (01:22:56):
I agree with you. I think that's true. Can I not disagree, but adjust it a little bit? Let's bring back the average has a population of zero. I think he's probably reeled in some percentage of the population to the idea of analytics while pushing another percentage further away.
Adam Harstad (01:23:15):
Maybe.
Rob Collie (01:23:15):
But then in terms of real numbers, we're seeing, I totally agree with you. The analytics has benefited as a field from the exposure he's brought to it, for sure. But even if that were, and again, we're just making up numbers at this point, even if that were 20% of the world that was now more receptive as a result, that would be massive. But I see a lot of ha-ha out in the world and I just don't want the methodology that he uses to be unfairly judged by the domain in which we find it most entertaining.
Rob Collie (01:23:48):
And I do think that the reason why he's so famous for the politics stuff is more for the entertainment reason, which is not the right reason. I don't have any objection to the guy or his methods or anything like that. It really is just like, "Ugh, I wish we could be fascinated with something else."
Adam Harstad (01:24:06):
Maybe.
Rob Collie (01:24:06):
Adam, man, a thank you is appropriate because I've enjoyed the hell out of this.
Adam Harstad (01:24:10):
I did too. It was a lot of fun.
Announcer (01:24:11):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data By P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
We didn't know what to expect when we sat down with Greg Beaumont, Senior Business Intelligence Specialist at Microsoft specializing in serving Microsoft's Healthcare space customers' technical Power BI issues. What we got was an insightful, delightful, and impactful conversation with a really cool and smart human!
References in this Episode:
The Game
Azure Health Bot
The Future Will Be Decentralized-Charles Hoskinson
Spider Goats
Episode Timeline:
- 3:10 - The magic of discovery with the Power Platform, It's all about the customers(and Greg has a LOT of customers!), and Greg's Data Origin Story
- 21:10 - The IT/Business Gap, Getting good BI and keeping data security is a tricky thing, The COVID Challenge hits Healthcare
- 43:00 - Power BI-Not just a data visualization tool, a very cool discussion on Genomics and using data to save lives, the importance of Data Modelling
- 59:10 - The Bitcoin Analogy, The VertiPaq Engine and when is Direct Query the answer
- 1:08:30 - We get a little personal with Greg, Azure/Power BI integration and Machine Learning, Cognitive Services and Sentiment Analysis
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today's guest is Greg Beaumont from Microsoft. Like one of our previous guests, hopefully, Greg has one of those interface jobs. The place where the broader Microsoft Corporation meets its customers at a very detailed and on the ground level. On one hand, it's one of those impossible jobs. More than 100 customers in the healthcare space look to Greg as their primary point of contact for all things technical, around Power BI. That's a tall order, folks. And at the same time, it's one of those awesome jobs. It's not that dissimilar, really, from our job here at P3.
Rob Collie (00:00:45):
In a role that, first of all, you get broad exposure to a tremendous number of organizations and their problems, you learn a lot super, super quickly. When you're doing it right, your work day is just nonstop magic. The power platform is magic and not really because of the technology, but instead because of its impact on the people who use it, who interact with it, who benefit from it, whose lives are changed by it. And again, I can't stress this enough, software usually doesn't do this. And as we talked with him, Krissy and I just couldn't stop nodding, because we could hear it, he lives it, just like we do. And I hope that just leaps out of the audio for you like it did for us.
Rob Collie (00:01:32):
No surprises here, Greg didn't start his life as a data professional. He's our second guest on this show, whose original training was in biology. And so, some familiar themes come back again, that good data professionals come from a wide variety of backgrounds, that the hybrid tweeners between IT and business are really where the value is at today. And I love this about Greg, that we made a point of talking about how much easier it is today to break into the data profession than it's ever been and what an amazing thing that is to celebrate.
Rob Collie (00:02:06):
We talked about COVID and specifically its impacts on the industry. How that has served as a catalyst for many organizations to rethink their analytic strategy, the implications of remote work, data privacy and security. And of course, it wouldn't be an episode of Raw Data, if we didn't nerd out about at least one thing. So, we get a little bit into genomics and the idea of DNA and RNA as forms of biological computer code. And as you'd expect, and want, Greg is far from a one dimensional data professional, just such an interesting person, authentically human, a real pleasure to speak with, so let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:47):
Ladies and gentlemen, could I have your attention, please.
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
This is the Raw Data by P3 adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:03:13):
Welcome to the show, Greg Beaumont. How are you?
Greg Beaumont (00:03:17):
I'm doing well. How are you all?
Rob Collie (00:03:19):
I think we're doing pretty well.
Greg Beaumont (00:03:19):
Awesome.
Rob Collie (00:03:20):
Business is booming. Data has turned out to be relatively hot field, but I think it's probably got some legs to it. And the Microsoft platform also, well, it's just kind of kicking ass, isn't it? So, business wise, we couldn't be better. I think personally, we're doing well, too. We won't go into all that. What are you up to these days? What's your job title and what's an average day look for you?
Greg Beaumont (00:03:39):
So, I'm working in Microsoft and my title is Technical Specialist. And I'm a Business Intelligence Technical Specialist, so I focus almost exclusively on Power BI and where it integrates with other products within the Microsoft stack. Now, I'm in the Microsoft field, which is different from a number of guests you've had, who work at corporate and we're working on the product groups, which is that I'm there to help the customers.
Greg Beaumont (00:04:01):
And you hear a lot of different acronyms with these titles. So, my role is often called the TS. In the past, it was called a TSP. It's just a change in the title. Sometimes you might hear the title, CSA, Cloud Solution Architect. It's very similar to what I do, but a little bit different. But effectively from an overarching standpoint, our goal in the field as Technical Specialists is to engage with customers, so that they understand how and where to use our products, and to ensure that they have a good experience when they succeed.
Rob Collie (00:04:29):
Your job is literally where the Microsoft organism meets the customers.
Greg Beaumont (00:04:34):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:04:35):
That's not the role I had. I was definitely on the corporate side, back in my days at Microsoft. I think the interaction between the field and corporate has gotten a lot stronger over the years. I think it's a bit more organic, that interplay, that it used to feel like crossing a chasm sort of thing. And I don't think that's really true anymore.
Greg Beaumont (00:04:54):
At a green, I think that's by design, too. So, with the more frequent release schedules and also kind of how things have changed under Satya, customer feedback drives the roadmap. So when these monthly updates come out, a lot of it is based off of customer demand and what customers are encountering and what they need. So, we're able to pivot and meet the needs of those customers much more quickly.
Rob Collie (00:05:15):
Yeah, you mentioned the changing acronyms, right? I mean like yes. My gosh, a thousand times yes. It's almost like a deliberate obfuscation strategy. It's like who's what? Why did we need to take the P off of TSP? I mean, I'm sure it was really important in some meeting somewhere, but it's just like, "Oh, yeah, it's really hard to keep track of." It's just a perpetually moving target. But at the same time, so many fundamentals don't change, right? The things that customers need and the things that Microsoft needs to provide. The fundamentals, of course, evolving, but they don't move nearly as fast as the acronym game.
Greg Beaumont (00:05:52):
Right. I think that acronym game is part of what makes it difficult your first year here, because people have a conversation and you don't know what they're talking about. Right?
Rob Collie (00:06:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg Beaumont (00:06:00):
And if they just spelled it out, it would make a lot more sense.
Rob Collie (00:06:03):
Krissy was talking to me today about, "Am I understanding what Foo means?" There's an internal Microsoft dialect, right? Krissy was like, "Is Foo like X? Is it like a placeholder for variable?" I'm like, "Yes, yes." She's like, "Okay. That's what I thought, but I just want to make sure."
Krissy Dyess (00:06:18):
That's why there's context clues in grade school really come into play when you're working with Microsoft organization, because you really got to take in all the information and kind of decipher it a bit. And those context clues help out. Greg, how long have you been in that particular role? Has it been your whole time at Microsoft or are have you been in different roles?
Greg Beaumont (00:06:36):
So, I should add, too, that I'm specifically in the healthcare org, and even within healthcare, we've now subspecialized into sub-verticals within healthcare. So, I work exclusively with healthcare providers, so people who are providing care to patients in a patient care setting. I do help out on a few other accounts, too, but that's my primary area of responsibility.
Greg Beaumont (00:06:55):
So, I started with Microsoft in 2016. I was actually hired into a regional office as what's called the traditional TSP role and it was data platform TSP. So, it was what used to be the SQL Server TS role. A few months later, the annual realign happened, I got moved over to Modern Workplace because they wanted to have an increased focus on Power BI, and I had some experience in that area. Plus, I was the new guy, so they put me into the experimental role. A year later, that's when they added the industry verticals and that's when I moved into what is kind of the final iteration of my current role. And the titles have changed a few times, but I've effectively been in this role working with healthcare customers for over four years now.
Rob Collie (00:07:35):
And so, like a double vertical specialization?
Greg Beaumont (00:07:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:37):
Healthcare providers, where there's a hierarchy here?
Greg Beaumont (00:07:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:41):
Those are the jaw dropping things for me is sometimes people in roles like yours, even after all that specialization, you end up with a jillion customers that you're theoretically responsible for. Double digits, triple digits, single digits in terms of how many customers you have to cover?
Greg Beaumont (00:07:58):
I'm triple digits. And that is one of the key differences from that CSA role that you'll see on the Azure team is they tend to be more focused on just a couple of customers and they get more engaged in kind of projects. And I will do that with customers, but it's just, it's a lot more to manage.
Rob Collie (00:08:14):
Yeah. What a challenging job. If you think about it, the minimum triple digit number is 100, right? So, let's just say, it's 100 for a moment. Well, you've got 52 weeks a year plus PTO, right? So, you're just like, "Okay." It is very, very difficult to juggle. That's a professional skill that is uncommon. I would say that's probably harder than the acronym game.
Greg Beaumont (00:08:37):
Yeah, there's been times I was on a vacation day and I got a call. I didn't recognize the number. I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to have to route this to somebody because I'm off today." And they're like, "Well, I'm the VP of so and so and we need to do this." And I'm like, "Okay, I got to go back inside and work now, because this is an important call." So, you have to be flexible and you're correct, that it makes it a challenge to have that work-life balance also, but the work is very rewarding, so it's worth it.
Rob Collie (00:09:01):
Yeah. It's something that vaguely I have a sense of this. I mean, transitioning from corporate Microsoft to, I mean, you can think of my role now as field. I'm much, much closer to the customers than I ever was at corporate. And yes, Brian Jones and I talked about it a little bit. And this is a bit of an artifact of the old release model that it was like every few years, you'd release a product, which isn't the case anymore. But that satisfying feeling of helping people, like even if you build something amazing back at Microsoft in the days that I was there, you were never really around for that victory lap. You would never get that feedback. It even never make it to you.
Rob Collie (00:09:37):
It was years later muted whereas one of the beautiful things about working closely with customers and our clients with Power BI, and actually the Microsoft platform as a whole, is just how quickly you can deliver these amazingly transformational like light up moments that go beyond just the professional. You can get this emotional, really strong validating emotional feeling of having helped. And that is difficult to get, I think even today, probably, even with their monthly release cycles, et cetera. By definition, you're just further removed from the "Wow" that happens out where the people are.
Greg Beaumont (00:10:15):
Yep. And I'm sure you all see that, too, with your business is that a lot of work often goes into figuring out what needs to be in these solutions and reports, but when you actually put it in the hands of leaders, and they realize the power of what it can provide for their business, in my case for their patients, for their doctors, for their nurses, it becomes real. They see it's actually possible and it's not just a PowerPoint deck.
Rob Collie (00:10:38):
And that sense of possibility, that sense of almost child-like wonder that comes back at those moments, you just wouldn't expect from the outside. I had a family member one time say, "Oh, Rob, I could never do what you do." Basically, it was just saying "How boring it must be, right?" It's so boring working with software, working with..." I'm like, "Are you kidding me? This is one of the places in life where you get to create and just an amazingly magical." It's really the only word that comes close to capturing it. You just wouldn't expect that, right? Again, from the outside like, "Oh, you work in data all day. Boring."
Greg Beaumont (00:11:17):
I'd add to that, that I'd compare it to maybe the satisfaction people get out of when they beat a game or a video game. That when you figure out how to do a solution and it works and you put in that time and that effort and that thought, there's that emotional reward, you get that I built something that that actually did what they wanted it to do.
Rob Collie (00:11:35):
Yeah. And after you beat the video game, not only did that happen, but other people's lives get better as a result of you beating this game. It's just like it's got all those dynamics, and then some. All these follow on effects.
Greg Beaumont (00:11:46):
It's like being an athlete and enjoying the sport that you compete in.
Rob Collie (00:11:50):
Yeah. We're never going to retire. We're going to be the athletes that hang on way too long.
Greg Beaumont (00:11:56):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:11:58):
So, unfortunately, I think our careers can go longer than a professional athletes, so there's that. I can't even really walk up and down stairs anymore without pain, so. So what about before Microsoft? What were you up to beforehand and how did you end up in this line of work in the first place?
Greg Beaumont (00:12:15):
Sure. And I think that's actually something where listeners can get some value, because the way I got into this line of work, I think today, there's much more opportunity for people all over the world from different socioeconomic backgrounds to be able to break into this field without having to kind of go through the rites of passage that people used to. So, I was actually a Biology major from a small school. Came from a military family. I didn't have corporate contacts or great guidance counseling or anything like that. My first job right out of school was I said, "Oh, I got a Biology major. I got a job at a research institution." They're like, "Okay, you're going to be cleaning out the mouse cages." And it was sort of $10.50 an hour.
Greg Beaumont (00:12:53):
So, at that point, I said, "Okay, I got to start thinking about a different line of work here." So, I kind of bounced around a little bit. I wanted to get into IT, but if you wanted to learn something like SQL Server, you couldn't do it unless you had a job in IT. As an average person, you couldn't just go buy a SQL Server and put it in your home unless you had the amount of money that you needed to do that. Side projects with Access and Excel. Small businesses did things probably making less than minimum wage and side gigs, in addition to what I was doing for full-time work to pay the bills. Eventually caught on with a hospital where I was doing some interesting projects with data using Access and Excel. They wouldn't even give me access to Crystal Reports when we wanted to do some reporting. That was really where I kind of said , "Data is where I want to focus."
Greg Beaumont (00:13:41):
We did some projects around things like Radon Awareness, so people who would build a new house now, they're like, "Oh, I have to pay $1500 for that Radon machine down in the basement." But when you talk to a thoracic surgeon and their nursing team and you hear stories about people who are nonsmokers, perfectly healthy, who come in with tumors all over their lungs, you realize the value there and by looking at the data of where there's pockets of radon in the country reaching out to those people has value, right? I think it's that human element where you're actually doing something that makes a difference. So, that kind of opened my eyes.
Greg Beaumont (00:14:14):
I then after that job, I got on with a small consulting company. I was a Project Manager. It was my first exposure to Microsoft BI. It was actually ProClarity over SQL Server 2005 and we were working with data around HEDIS and Joint Commission healthcare performance measures for one of the VA offices. So, I was the PM and the Data Architect was building the SSIS packages, built out kind of skeleton of an analysis services cube. He asked me to lean in on the dashboarding side, and that's also where I started learning MDX because we were writing some MDX expressions to start doing some calculations that we were then exposing in ProClarity. And at that point, it was like, "This is magic."
Greg Beaumont (00:14:57):
From a used case perspective, what they were doing traditionally doing was they'd send somebody in from some auditing agency, who would look at, I think it was 30 to 60 patient records, for each metric and then they take a look at where all of the criteria hit for that metric, yes or no. And it would be pass/fail, how good is this institution doing of meeting this particular expectation. So, it would be things like, "Does a patient receive aspirin within a certain amount of time that they've been admitted if they have heart problems?" Something like that. With looking at it from a data perspective, you can look at the whole patient population, and then you could start slicing and dicing it by department, by time of day that they were admitted, by all of these different things.
Greg Beaumont (00:15:38):
And that's when I kind of said, "This is really cool, really interesting. I think there's a big future here." And I kind of decided to take that route. And from there, I got on with a Microsoft partner, where I stayed for about six years. And that's kind of where I was exposed to a lot of very smart, very gifted people. And I was able to kind of learn from them and then that led to eventually getting a job at Microsoft. But to make a long story short, today, you could go online and get Power BI Desktop for free. There's training resources all over the place, and you could skill up and get started and get a great job. I'd like to tell people take the amount of time you spend every night playing video games and watching television, take half that time and devote it to learning Power BI and you'll be amazed at how far you get in six to 12 months.
Rob Collie (00:16:24):
That's such good advice. I'm not really allowed to play a lot of video games, so I might need more time than that. But I had my time to do that years ago, learning DAX and everything. A couple of things really jumped out at me there. First of all, you're right, it was almost like a priesthood before. It was so hard to get your foot in the door. Look, you had to climb incrementally, multiple steps in that story to just get to the point where you were sitting next to the thing that was SSIS and MDX which, again, neither of those things had a particularly humane learning curve. Even when you got there, which was a climb, you get to that point and then they're like, "And here's your cliff. Your smooth cliff that you have to scale. If you wanted a piece of this technology," right?
Rob Collie (00:17:11):
You wanted to learn MDX, you had to get your hands on an SSAS server. The license for it. And then you had to have a machine you could install it on that was beefy enough to handle it. It's just, there's so many barriers to entry. And the data gene, I like to talk about, it does. It cuts across every demographic, as far as I can tell, damn near equally everywhere. Let's call it one in 20. It's probably a little less frequent than that. Let's call it 5% of the population is carrying the data gene and you've got to get exposure. And that's a lot easier to get that exposure today than it was even 10 years ago.
Greg Beaumont (00:17:50):
I'd completely agree with that. The people in this field tend to be the type of people who likes solving puzzles, who like building things that are complex and have different pieces, but who also enjoy the reward of getting it to work at the end. You've had several guests that have come on the show that come from nontraditional backgrounds. But I'm convinced that 20 years ago, there were a lot of people who would have been great data people, who just never got the opportunity to make it happen.
Greg Beaumont (00:18:14):
Whereas today, the opportunity is there and I think Microsoft has done a great job with their strategy of letting you learn and try Power BI. You can go download the dashboard in a day content for free and the PDF is pretty self-explanatory and if you've used excel in the past, you can walk through it and teach yourself the tool. I think the power of that from both the perspective of giving people opportunity and also building up a workforce for this field of work is amazing.
Rob Collie (00:18:42):
Yeah. I mean, all those people that were sort of in a sense like kind of left behind, years ago, they weren't given an avenue. A large number of them did get soaked up by Excel. If they're professionally still active today, there's this tremendous population of Excel people if they were joining the story today, they might be jumping into Power BI almost from the beginning, potentially. And of course, if they were doing that, they'd still be doing Excel. But there's still this huge reservoir of people who are still tomorrow, think about the number of people tomorrow, just tomorrow. Today, they're good at Excel and tomorrow, they will sort of, they'll have their first discovery moment with Power BI. The first moment of DAX or M or whatever, that's a large number of people tomorrow who are about to experience. It's almost like did you see the movie The Game?
Greg Beaumont (00:19:36):
I have not.
Rob Collie (00:19:37):
There's this moment early in the movie where Michael Douglas has just found out that his brother or something has bought them a pass to the game. And no one will tell him what it is. He meets this guy at a bar who says, "Oh, I'm so envious that you get to play for the first time." Also, this is really silly, but it's also like the ACDC song For Those About To Rock, We Salute You. For those about to DAX, we salute you, because that's going to happen tomorrow, right? Such a population every day that's lighting up and what an exciting thing to think about. Do you ever get down for any reason, just stop and think, "Oh, what about the 5000 people today who are discovering this stuff for the first time." That is a happy thing.
Greg Beaumont (00:20:16):
Yeah, I actually had a customer where one of their analysts who turned out to be just a Power BI Rockstar, he said, "I'd been spending 20 years of my life writing V-lookups, and creating giant Excel files. And now, everything I was trying to do is at my fingertips," right? And then within a year, he went from being a lifelong Excel expert to creating these amazing reports that got visibility within the organization and provided a ton of value.
Rob Collie (00:20:42):
And that same person you're talking about is also incredibly steeped in business decision-making. They've been getting a business training their whole career at the same time. And it's like suddenly, you have this amazingly capable business tech hybrid, that literally, it just like moved mountains. It's crazy. We've talked about that a lot on the show, obviously, the hybrids, just amazing. And a lot of these people have come to work for us.
Rob Collie (00:21:09):
That's the most common origin story for our consultants. It's not the only one. I mean, we do have some people who came from more traditional IT backgrounds, but they're also hybrids. They understand business incredibly well. And so, they never really quite fit in on the pure IT side, either. It's really kind of interesting.
Greg Beaumont (00:21:26):
Yeah, I think there's still a gap there between IT and business, even in kind of the way solutions get architected in the field. It's understanding what the business really wants out of the tool is often very different from how IT understands to build it. And I think that's where people like that provide that bridge, to make things that actually work and then provide the value that's needed.
Rob Collie (00:21:47):
There's such valuable ambassadors. It's just so obvious when IT is going to interact with a business unit to help them achieve some goal. It's so obvious that, of course, who you need to engage with IT. IT thinks, "We need to engage with the leaders of this business unit." They've got the secret weapon, these hybrid people that came up through the ranks with Excel. The word shadow IT is perfect. These people within the business, like they've been Excel people for their entire careers, they have an IT style job.
Rob Collie (00:22:22):
Almost all the challenges that IT complains about with working with business, you take these Excel people and sort of put them in a room where they feel safe. They'll tell you the same things. They're like, "I had exactly the same problems with my 'users,' the people that I build things for." And yeah, there's such a good translator. And if the communication flows between IT and business sort of through that portal, things go so much better. That's a habit. We're still in the process of developing as a world.
Greg Beaumont (00:22:51):
Yeah. And in healthcare that actually also provides some unique challenges. With regulation and personal health information, these Excel files have sensitive data in them, and you have to make sure it's protected and that the right people can see it. And how do you give them the power to use their skills to improve your organization, while also making sure that you keep everything safe. So, I think that's a hot topic these days.
Rob Collie (00:23:15):
Yeah. I mean, it's one of those like a requirement, even of the Hello World equivalent of anything is that you right off the bat have to have things like row level security and object level security in place and sometimes obfuscation. What are some of the... we don't want to get to shop talky, but it is a really fascinating topic, what are the handful of go-to techniques for managing sensitive healthcare information? How do you get good BI, while at the same time protecting identity and sensitivity. So often, you still need to be able to uniquely identify patients to tie them across different systems, can identify them as people. It's really, really, really tricky stuff.
Greg Beaumont (00:24:02):
And I think just to kind of stress the importance of this, you can actually go search for look up HIPAA wall of shame or HIPAA violation list. When this information gets shared with the wrong people, there's consequences and can result in financial fees and fines. And in addition to that, you lose the trust of people whose personal information may have been violated. So, I think a combination of you said things row level security and object level security as a start, you can also do data masking, but then there's issues of people export to Excel. What do they do with that data afterwards?
Greg Beaumont (00:24:37):
And then there's going to be tools like Microsoft Information Protection, where when you export sensitive information to Excel, it attaches an encrypted component. I'm not an MIT expert. I know how it works. I don't know the actual technology behind it. But it attaches an encrypted component where only people who are allowed to see that information can then open that file. So, you're protecting the information at the source and in transit, but you're still giving people the flexibility to go build a report or to potentially use data from different sources, but then have it be protected every step of the way.
Greg Beaumont (00:25:11):
So like you said, without getting too techie, there's ways to do it, but it's not just out of the box easy. There's steps you have to go through, talk to experts, get advice. Whether it's workshops or proof of concepts, there's different ways that customers can figure that out.
Rob Collie (00:25:28):
Yeah. So because of that sort of mandatory minimum level of sensitivity handling and information security, I would expect, now that we're talking about it, that IT sort of has to be a lot more involved by default in the healthcare space with the solutions than IT would necessarily be in other industries. Another way to say it, it's harder for the business to be 100% in charge of data modeling in healthcare than it is in other industries.
Greg Beaumont (00:26:02):
Yep. But you can have a hybrid model, which is where the business provides data that's already been vetted and protected and there might be other data that doesn't have any sensitive data in it, where it's game on, supply chain or something like that. But having these layers in between, the old way of doing things was just nobody gets access to it. Then there was kind of canned reporting where everybody gets burst in the reports that contain what they're allowed to see. But now, you can do things in transit, so that the end users can still use filters and build a new report and maybe even share it with other people. And know that whoever they're sharing with will only be able to see what they're allowed to see. It gets pretty complex, but it's definitely doable and the customers that are doing it are finding a lot of value in those capabilities.
Rob Collie (00:26:48):
That's fundamentally one of the advantages of having a data model. I was listening to a podcast with Jeffrey Wang from Microsoft and he was talking about it. And I thought this was a really crisp and concise summary, which is that the Microsoft Stack Power BI has a model-centric approach to the world whereas basically, all the competitors are report centric. And what does that mean? Why does that even make a difference? Well, when you build a model, you've essentially built all the reports in a way. You've enabled all of the reports. You can build many, many, many, many, many like an infinite number of different reports based on emerging and evolving business needs without having to go back to square one.
Rob Collie (00:27:28):
In a report-centric model, which is basically what the industry has almost always had, almost everywhere, outside of a few notable examples, Power BI being one of them. When a report centric model, every single change, I remember there being a statistic that was just jaw dropping. I forget what the actual numbers were, but it was something like the average number of business days it took to add a single column to a single existing report. It was like nine business days, when it should just be a click. And that's the difference. And so, preserving that benefit of this model centric approach, while at the same time, still making sure that everyone's playing within the right sandbox that you can't jump the fence and end up with something that's inappropriate. Very challenging, but doable.
Greg Beaumont (00:28:15):
Yep. That reminded me of an old joke we used to tell in consulting and this was back in the SharePoint Performance Point with Analysis Services days is there be a budget for a project, there'd be change requests along the ways, they discover issues with the data. And at the very end of the project, they rushed the visualization to market. And they're like after six months, with 10 people dedicated on this project, "Here's your line chart."
Rob Collie (00:28:39):
Yeah. I had a director of IT at a large insurance company one time, looking me in the eye and just brutally confess. Yeah, my team, we spent three months to put a dot on a chart. And that's not what you want.
Greg Beaumont (00:28:59):
Right, right.
Rob Collie (00:29:01):
That was unspoken. This was bad. To the extent that you're able to tell, what are some of the interesting things that you've seen in the healthcare space with this platform recently? Anything that we can talk about?
Greg Beaumont (00:29:15):
Yeah, so I think I'd start with how everything changed with COVID. Just because I think people would be interested in that topic and kind of how it changed everything. I actually had a customer yesterday at a large provider who said, "COVID was the catalyst for us to reconsider our investment in analytics, and that it spurred interest from even an executive level to put more money into analytics because of the things that happened." So obviously, when it hit everybody was, "What in the world is going on here?" Right? "Are we even going to have jobs? Is the whole world going to collapse or is this just going to be kind of fake news that comes and goes?" Everybody was unsure what was going on.
Greg Beaumont (00:29:50):
At the same time, the healthcare providers, a lot of them were moving people to work from home and these were organizations where they had very strict working conditions because of these data privacy and data security considerations, and all of a sudden, you're in a rush to move people home. So, some of my counterparts who do teams, they have some just amazing stories. They were up all night helping people set up ways to securely get their employees to a work-from-home type experience, so that they only had essential workers interacting with the patients, but then the office workers were able to effectively conduct business from home.
Greg Beaumont (00:30:25):
Additionally, there were use cases that were amazing. So, Microsoft has now what's called the Cloud for Health where we're effectively taking our technology and trying to make it more targeted towards healthcare customers and their specific needs, because we see the same types of use cases repeat from customer to customer. One of those use cases that came out of COVID was called Virtual Visits. And I actually know the team that built that solution, but because of patients who were on COVID, they didn't know how contagious it was.
Greg Beaumont (00:30:56):
There were people being put on ventilators, who weren't allowed to see their families and they were setting up a team's application, where people were actually able to talk to their family and see their family before they went under, right? There were chaplains who were reading people their last rites using video conferencing, and things like that. So, it was pretty heavy stuff, but I think from a healthcare perspective, it showed the value technology can provide.
Greg Beaumont (00:31:21):
And from our perspective in the field, it's like we're not just out there talking about bits and bytes. It kind of hit home that there's real people who are impacted by what we're doing and it adds another kind of layer of gravity, I'd call it, taking what you do seriously, right? I had another customer, they were doing some mapping initiatives with some of the COVID data because they wanted to provide maps for their employees of where the hotspots were.
Greg Beaumont (00:31:46):
And we were up till I think 11:00 at night one night working through a proof of concept. And they said, "Yeah, what's next is we also want to start mapping areas of social unrest." I said, "Wow, social unrest. Why are you worried about that?" And they said, "Well, we expect because of this lockdown, that eventually there's going to be rioting and issues in all different parts of the world." And at that time, I just kind of didn't really think about that, but then a lot of those things did happen. It was kind of just interesting to be working at night and hearing those stories, and then seeing how everything kind of unfolded.
Greg Beaumont (00:32:18):
Another example, look it up, there's an Azure COVID Health Bot out there and then there's some information on that, where you can ask questions and walk through your symptoms, and it will kind of give you some instructions on what to do. Another one that is even popular now is looking at employees who are returning to work. So, when people return to work find out vaccination status, "Are you able to come back to work? Are you essential? Are you nonessential?" I don't think a lot of customers were prepared to run through that scenario when it hit.
Greg Beaumont (00:32:48):
So, having these agile tools where you can go get your list of not only employees, but maybe partners that refer people to your network, because you might not have all the referring doctors in your system. So with Power BI, you can go get extracts, tie it all together and then build out a solution that helps you get those things done. I'd say it was eye opening. I think for customers and also for myself and my peers, that we're not just selling widgets. We're selling things that make a difference and have that human perspective to it.
Rob Collie (00:33:20):
Yeah, that does bring it home, doesn't it? That statement from an organization that COVID was the catalyst, evaluating and investing in their analytic strategy?
Greg Beaumont (00:33:29):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:33:30):
Being in BI, being an analytics is one of the best ways to future proof one's career because at baseline, it's a healthy industry, there's always value to be created. But then when things get bad, for some reason, whatever crisis hits, it's actually more necessary than ever because when you've been in a groove when a an industry or an organization has been in an operational groove for a long time, any number of years, eventually, you just sort of start to intuitively figure it out. There's a roadmap that emerges slowly over time. Now, even that roadmap probably isn't as good as you think it is. If you really tested your assumptions, you'd find that some of them were flawed and analytics could have helped you be a lot more efficient even then.
Rob Collie (00:34:14):
But regardless, the perception is that we've got a groove, right? And then when the world completely changes overnight, all of your roadmaps, your travel roadmaps, none of them are valid anymore. And now, you need a replacement and you need it fast. And so, what happens is, is that analytics spending, BI spending, whatever you want to call it, or activity, actually increases during times of crisis. So, you got a healthy baseline business. It's an industry that's not withering and dying in good times, but it actually it's like a hedge against bad times.
Rob Collie (00:34:47):
When I saw that research years and years ago, when I was working at Microsoft Corporate, we just come out of the dot-com crack up, we'd seen that BI spending it across the IT industry was the only sector that went up during that time where everything else was falling. It's like, "Oh, okay." So, not only do I enjoy this stuff, but I really should never get out of it. It's like one of the best future proofing career moves you can make is the work in this field. And so, I mean, we've seen it, right? The early days of the COVID crisis, you're right when no one knew the range of possible outcomes going forward was incredibly wide. The low end and the high end were exponentially different from one another.
Rob Collie (00:35:29):
And so, we experienced in our business, sort of a gap in spring and early summer last year. We weren't really seeing a whole lot of new clients, people who are willing to forge a brand new relationship. Again, what happens when a crisis hits? You slam on the brakes. No unnecessary spending first of all. Let's get all the spending under control, because we don't know as a company what's going to happen in the industry, right? You see a lot of vendor spending freezes and of course, to other companies, we're a vendor, right? So, our existing clients, though, doubled down on how much they used us and how much they needed us.
Rob Collie (00:36:08):
And then later in the year, the new client business returned, and we actually ended up, our business was up last year, despite that Q2 interruption and sort of making new friends. And this year, holy cow like whatever was bottled up last year is coming back big time. And so, yeah. You never really want to be the ghoul that sort of morbidly goes, "Oh, crisis." From a business perspective, yeah, anything that changes, anything that disrupts the status quo tends to lead to an increased focus on the things that we do.
Greg Beaumont (00:36:43):
Yeah, I think something you said there, too, was when you don't know what's going to happen was when the business intelligence spending increased. I mean, the intelligence and business intelligence, it's not just a slogan. The purpose of these tools is to find out the things you don't know. So when there's uncertainty, that's when BI can provide that catalyst to sort of add some clarity to what you're actually dealing with.
Rob Collie (00:37:06):
Yeah, I've been using, even though I'm not a pilot, I've never learned to fly a plane or anything. I've been using an aviation metaphor lately, which is windshield is nice and clear. You might not be looking at the instruments on your cockpit very much, right? You know there's not a mountain in front of you, you can see how far away the ground is. And you could sort of intuit your way along, right? But then suddenly, whoosh clouds. And oh, boy, now, you really need those instruments, right? You need the dashboards, you need the altimeter, you need the radar. You need all that stuff so much more.
Rob Collie (00:37:37):
And so, and our business has kind of always been this. The reason I've been using this metaphor is really for us, it's like given how fast we operate, and I think you can appreciate this having come from a Microsoft partner consulting firm before Microsoft years ago, our business model, we move so fast with projects. We're not on that old model with the original budget and the change orders and all of that. That was all dysfunctional.
Rob Collie (00:38:01):
It was necessary, because of the way software worked back then, but it was absolutely dysfunctional. It's not the way that you get customer satisfaction. So, we've committed to the high velocity model. But that means seeing the future of our business financially two months in the future is very difficult relative to the old sort of glacial pace, right? If there's a mountain there, we're going to have months to turn around it.
Krissy Dyess (00:38:26):
To add a bit to your analogy there, Rob. I am married to a pilot and I have gone up in the small tiny airplane. And before the gadgets, there's actually the map. The paper map, right? So, you had the paper map, which my husband now would hand to me. And he'd tell me, "Okay, let me know the elevations of different areas to make sure we're high enough, we're not going to crash into the mountains."
Krissy Dyess (00:38:47):
What's happened is people just they got used to different ways that they were doing things. They were forced into these more modern ways. And I think even now, this wave of seeing this catalyst we can change and how are other people changing is also driving the people to seek help from others in terms of getting guidance, right? Because even though you've had the change, it doesn't necessarily mean that the changes that you made were 100% the right way and you can learn so much from others in the community and the people that are willing to help.
Krissy Dyess (00:39:24):
And I think that's one of the things too, that our company provides as a partner, we're able to kind of go alongside. We've seen what's works, what doesn't work, what are some of those pitfalls? What are those mountains approaching? And we're really able to help guide others that want to learn and become better.
Rob Collie (00:39:42):
Yeah. I mean, this is us getting just a little bit commercial, but you can forgive us, right? That high velocity model also exposes us to a much larger denominator. We see a lot at this business that accumulates. The example I've given before is and this is just a really specific techy, so much of this is qualitative, but there's a quantitative. It's sort of like a hard example of like, "Oh, yeah, that's right. This pattern that we need here for this food spoilage inventory problem is exactly the same as this tax accounting problem we solved over there, right?" As soon as you realize that you don't need to do all the figuring out development work, you just skip to the end.
Rob Collie (00:40:22):
And really, most of the stuff that Krissy was talking about, I think, is actually it's more of the softer stuff. It's more of the soft wisdom that accumulates over the course of exposure to so many different industries and so many different projects. That's actually really one of the reasons why people come to work here is they want that enrichment.
Greg Beaumont (00:40:38):
Yeah, that makes sense. Because you see all these different industries and you actually get exposed to customers that are the best in the business for that type of, whether it be a solution or whether it be a product or whether it be like a framework for doing analytics or something like that. So, you get that exposure and you also get to contribute.
Rob Collie (00:40:55):
Even just speaking for myself, in the early days of this business, when it was really still just me, I got exposure to so many business leaders. Business and IT leaders that, especially given the profile of the people who would take the risk back in 2013, you had to be some kind of exceptional to be leaning into this technology with your own personal and professional reputation eight years ago, right? It was brand new. So, imagine the profile of the people I was getting exposed to, right? Wow, I learned so much from those people in terms of leadership, in terms of business. They were learning data stuff from me, but at the same time, I was taking notes.
Greg Beaumont (00:41:33):
Everybody was reading your blog, too. I can't count the number of times I included a reference to one of your articles to help answer some questions. And it was the first time I was introduced to the Switch True DAX statement. And then I'd print that.
Rob Collie (00:41:47):
Which-
Greg Beaumont (00:41:48):
Sent that link to many people. "Don't do if statements, do this. Just read this article."
Rob Collie (00:41:53):
And even that was something that I'd saw someone else doing. And I was like, "Oh, my God, what is that?" My head exploded like, "Oh." Yeah, those were interesting days. I think on the Chandu podcast, I talked about how I was writing about this stuff almost violently, couldn't help it. It was just like so fast. Two articles a week. I was doing two a week for years. There was so much to talk about, so many new discoveries. It was just kind of pouring out in a way.
Krissy Dyess (00:42:24):
Greg, you came in to the role around 2016. And to me 2017 was really that big year with the monthly releases where Power BI just became this phenomenon, right? It just kept getting better and better in terms of capabilities and even the last couple years, all the attention around security has been huge, especially with the health and life science space. And last year, with this catalyst to shift mindsets into other patterns, working patterns using technology, do you feel like you've seen any kind of significant shifts just compared to last year or this year?
Greg Beaumont (00:43:05):
Yeah. And so something that burns my ears every time I hear it is when people call Power BI a data visualization tool. It does that and it does a great job.
Rob Collie (00:43:11):
I hate that.
Greg Beaumont (00:43:12):
But it's become much more than that. When it launched, it was a data visualization tool. But if you think about it at that time, they said, "Well, business users can't understand complex data models, so you have to do that in analysis services." Then they kind of ingested analysis services into Power BI and made it more of a SaaS product where you can scale it. There's Dataflows, the ETL tool, which is within Power BI, which is an iteration of Power Query, which has been around since the Excel days. So, now you have ETL. You have effectively from the old SQL Server world, you have the SSIS layer, you have the SSAS layer. With paginated reports, you have the SSRS layer. And you have all these different layers of the solution now within an easy to use SaaS product.
Greg Beaumont (00:43:55):
So this evolution has been happening, where it's gobbling up these other products that used to be something that only central IT could do. And now, we're putting that power by making it easier to use in the hands of those analysts who really know what they want from the data. Because if you think about it, the old process was is you go and you give the IT team your requirements, and they interpret how to take what you want, and translate it into computer code.
Greg Beaumont (00:44:21):
But now, we're giving those analysts the ability to take their requirements and go do it themselves. And there's still a very valid place for central IT because there's so many other things they can do, but it frees up their time to work on higher valued projects and I see that continuing with Power BI, right? But like we're adding AI, ML capabilities and data volumes keep increasing then capabilities I think will continue to expand it.
Rob Collie (00:44:46):
Greg, I used to really caused a storm when I would go to a conference that was full of BI professionals. And I would say that something like, "What percentage of the time of BI project, traditional BI project was actually spent typing the right code?" The code that stuck, right? And I would make the claim that it was less than 1%. So, it's like less than 1% of the time of a project, right? And everyone would just get so upset at me, right? But I just didn't understand why it was controversial.
Rob Collie (00:45:19):
Like you describe like yeah, we have these long requirements meetings in the old model. Interminably long, exhausting, and we'd write everything down. We'd come up with this gigantic requirements document that was flawed from the get-go. It was just so painful. It's like the communication cost was everything and the iteration and discovery, there wasn't enough time for that. And when I say that the new way of building these projects is sometimes literally 100 times faster than the old way. Like it sounds like hyperbole.
Greg Beaumont (00:45:53):
It's not. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:45:54):
It can be that fast, but you're better off telling people, it's twice as fast because they'll believe you. If you tell them the truth, they'd go, "Nah, you're a snake oil salesman. Get out of here."
Greg Beaumont (00:46:07):
Yeah. And I think the speed of being able to develop, too, it's going to basically allow these tools to be able to do things that people didn't even dream of in the past. It's not just going to be traditional business use cases. I know in healthcare, something that's a hot topic is genomics, right? Genomics is incredibly complex then you go beyond Power BI and into Azure at that point, too and Cloud compute and things like that.
Greg Beaumont (00:46:31):
So, with Genomics, you think about your DNA, right? Your DNA is basically a long strand of computer code. It is base pairs of nucleic acids, adenine, thymine, and guanine, cytosine that effectively form ones and zeros in a really long string.
Rob Collie (00:46:46):
Did you know it effortlessly he named those base pairs? There's that biology background peeking back out.
Greg Beaumont (00:46:52):
I did have to go look it up before the meeting. I said, "Just in case this comes up, I need to make sure I pronounce them right," so.
Rob Collie (00:46:59):
Well, for those of us who listen to podcasts at 1.5x speed, that is going to sound super impressive, that string there.
Greg Beaumont (00:47:05):
Yeah. I should call out, too, though that I'm not a genomics expert, so some of what I'm saying here, I'm paraphrasing and repeating from people I've talked to who are experts, including physicians and researchers. So, this long string of code, if you sequence your entire genome, the file is about 100 gigabytes for one person, okay? At 100 gigabytes, you can consume that, but if you want to start comparing hundreds of people and thousands of people in different patient cohorts, all of a sudden, it gets to be a lot of information and it gets very complex.
Greg Beaumont (00:47:35):
If you think of that strand of DNA as being like a book with just two letters that alternate, there's going to be paragraphs and chapters and things like that, which do different things. So, one of the physicians I spoke to worked with Children's Cancer. Here's kind of where the use case comes in. So, you take something breast cancer where there's BRCA1 or BRCA2, BRCA1, BRCA2 genes where if you have it, there's a measurable increased probability that you'll get that type of cancer within a certain age range. There's a lot of other diseases and cancers, where it might be 30 genes. And depending on different combinations of those genes, it changes the risk of getting that specific type of cancer.
Greg Beaumont (00:48:17):
But this physician told me that there are specific children's cancers, where they know that if they have certain combinations of genes, that they have a very high probability of getting this cancer. And when the child actually feel sick and goes to the doctor, it's already spread and it's too late. So, if you can do this sequencing, basically run it through machine learning algorithms, so it will determine the probability, you could effectively catch it at stage zero. Because these cancers, it's something that could be related to growth hormones and as you're growing up, and as you become an adult, you're then no longer at risk of getting that childhood cancer. So, if they could identify it early and treated at stage zero, instead of stage 4, it sounds sci-fi, but the tools are there to do it.
Greg Beaumont (00:49:01):
It just never ceases to amaze me that you watch the news and they talk about self-driving cars and identifying when a banana is ripe, and things like that. But it's like, you know what? These same tools could be out there changing people's lives and making a measurable difference in the world. I think just especially post COVID, I'll expect to see a lot more investment in these areas. And also, interest because I think that might be one of the positives that comes out of this whole experience.
Rob Collie (00:49:27):
I do think that the sort of the worlds of Medicine and Computer Science are on a merging course. Let's not call it collision course. That sounds more dramatic. There is a merging going on. You're right DNA is biologically encoded instructions by an RNA. The mRNA vaccine is essentially injecting the source code that your body then compiles into antibodies. It's crazy and it's new. There's no two ways about it.
Rob Collie (00:49:56):
mRNA therapies, in general, which of course they were working on originally as anticancer and sort of just like, "Oh, well, we could use it for this, too." And there's all kinds of other things too, right? Gosh, when you go one level up from DNA or some point of abstraction, you get into protein folding. And whoa, is that...
Greg Beaumont (00:50:15):
Crazy, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:50:16):
... computationally. We're all just waiting for quantum computers, I think.
Greg Beaumont (00:50:20):
Now, I'll have to call out that I'm making a joke here, so people don't take me seriously. But if you think about it, the nucleus in each of your cells contains an important model of that DNA, right? There isn't just a central repository that everything communicates with. You have a cache of that DNA in every cell in your body, except red blood cells, which perform a specific task. There may be more of the power automated the human body. But cheap attempt at a joke there, so.
Rob Collie (00:50:44):
Well, I like it, I like it. Let's go in with both feet. I've also read that one of the reasons why it's difficult to clone adult animals is because you start off with your original DNA, but then you're actually making firmware updates to certain sections of the DNA throughout your life. And so, those edits that are being made all the time are inappropriate for an embryo.
Greg Beaumont (00:51:09):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:51:10):
And so, if you clone, you create an embryo, right? And now, it's got these weird adult things going on in it. That's why things kind of tend to go sideways. It can all come back to this notion of biological code and it's fascinating. A little terrifying, too, when you start to think of it that way. I've listened to some very scary podcasts about the potential for do-it-yourself bioweapon development. There was this explosion back, in what, in the '90s when the virus and worm writers discovered VVA. Remember that? We call them the script kiddies that would author these viruses that would spread throughout the computer systems of the world. And a lot of them, the people writing these things were not very sophisticated. They weren't world renowned hackers.
Greg Beaumont (00:51:53):
For every instance where you can use this technology to cure cancer, you're right that there's also the possibility of the Island of Dr. Moreau, right? You go look up CRISPR Technology, C-R-I-S-P-R, where they can start splicing together things from different places and making it viable. And 10 years ago, they had sheep that were producing spider webs in their milk and it's just, there's crazy stuff out there if you kind of dive into the dark depths of Biology. Now that we went down the rabbit hole, how do we correct course, right?
Rob Collie (00:52:23):
Well, we did go down a rabbit hole, but who cares? That's what we do.
Greg Beaumont (00:52:26):
Even you kind of step it back up to just kind of easy use cases in healthcare, so one of the ones that we use as a demo a lot came from a customer, and this was pre-COVID. But something as simple as hand washing, you don't think about it much. But when you're in the hospital, how many of those people are washing their hands appropriately when they care for you. And there's some white papers out there, which are showing that basically, there are measurable amounts of infections that happen in hospitals due to people not washing their hands appropriately. So, a lot of healthcare organizations will anonymously kind of observe people periodically to see who's doing a good job of washing their hands.
Rob Collie (00:53:04):
I was going to ask, how is this data collected?
Greg Beaumont (00:53:06):
This customer actually had nurses who were using a clipboard and they would write down their notes, fax it somewhere, and then somebody would enter it into Excel. So, there was this long process. And with another TS, who covers teams, we basically put a PLC together in a couple days, where they enter the information into a power app within teams, so they made their observation, entered it in. It did a write back straight to an Azure SQL Database at that time. Now, they might use the data verse. And then from Azure SQL DB, you can immediately report on it and Power BI. It even set up alerts, so that if somebody wasn't doing a good job, you could kind of take care of the situation, rather than wait for two days for the Excel report to get emailed out, and maybe lower the infection rates in the hospital.
Greg Beaumont (00:53:53):
So, it saved time from the workers who are writing things down and faxing things just from a sheer productivity perspective. But it also hopefully, I don't know if it will be measurable or not, but you'd have some anticipated increase in quality, because you're able to address issues faster. And that's the simplest thing ever, right? You can spend a billion dollars to come up with a new drug or you can just make sure are people washing their hands.
Rob Collie (00:54:17):
Both data collection and enforcement, they happen to be probably the same thing. There's like, "Oh, I'm being watched." The anonymity is gone. That's a fascinating story. Okay. What kinds of solutions are you seeing these days? What's happening out in the world that you think is worth talking to the audience about?
Greg Beaumont (00:54:38):
We're seeing this ability to execute better where the tools are easier to use, you can do things faster, but there's still challenges that I see frequently out there. So, I know something that you all are experts in its data modeling and understanding how to take a business problem and translate it into something that's going to perform well. So, not only do you get the logic right, but when somebody pushes a button they don't have to go to lunch and come back, they get a result quickly. That's still a challenge. And it's a challenge, because it's not always easy, right? I mean, it's the reason cubes were created in the first place was because when you have complex logic and you're going against a relational database, the query has to happen somewhere, but like that logic.
Greg Beaumont (00:55:19):
So take for example, if somebody wants to look at year over year percent change for a metric and they want to be able to slice it by department, maybe by disease group, maybe by weekend versus weekday, and then they want to see that trend over time. If you translate that into a SQL query, it gets really gnarly really fast. And that problem is still real. One of the trends I'm seeing in the industry is there's a big push to do everything in DirectQuery mode, because then you can kind of manage access, manage security, do all of those necessary security things in one place and have it exist in one place.
Greg Beaumont (00:56:00):
But when you're sending giant gnarly SQL queries back to relational databases, even if they're PDWs with multiple nodes, it gets very expensive from a compute perspective, and kind of when you scale out to large number of users, concurrency is still an issue. So that's something where you look at recently what Power BI has come out with aggregations and composite models. That's some of the technology that I think can mitigate some of those problems. And even if we think about something like Azure synapse, right? You can have your dedicated SQL pools then you can have a materialized view. A materialized view is effectively a cache of data within synapse, but then you can also have your caches in Power BI, and kind of layer everything together in a way that's going to take that logic and distribute it.
Greg Beaumont (00:56:46):
Does that make sense?
Rob Collie (00:56:47):
It does. I think this is still a current joke. The majority of cases where we've encountered people who think they want or need DirectQuery, the majority of them are actually perfect poster children case studies for when you should use cash and import mode. Right? It turns out the perceived need for DirectQuery, there is a real percentage of problems out there for which DirectQuery is the appropriate solution and it is the best solution. But it's the number of times people use it is a multiple of that real ideal number.
Rob Collie (00:57:17):
I think part of it is just familiarity. Still, I've long talked about how we're still experiencing as an industry the hangover from most data professionals being storage professionals. Everyone needed a database, just to make the wheels go round. The first use of data isn't BI. The first use of data is line of business applications. Every line of business application needed a database, right? So, we have minted millions of database professionals. this is also why I think partly why Power BI gets sort of erroneously pigeonholed as a visualization tools, because people are used to that. They're used to, we have a storage layer and reports layer, that's it, right?
Rob Collie (00:57:56):
Reporting services was Microsoft's runaway successful product in this space. Paginated reports is still around for good reason. And I think that if you're a long-term professional in this space with a long history, even if you're relatively young in the industry, but you've been working with other platforms, this storage layer plus visuals layer is just burned in your brain. And this idea of this like, "Why do you need to import the data? Why do you need a schedule? Why do you need all this stuff?" It's like as soon as people hear that they can skip it, and go to DirectQuery, they just run to the comfort zone in a way, right?
Greg Beaumont (00:58:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:32):
I'm teaching DAX and data modeling to the Excel crowd. I have a real tortured relationship with the related function. Should I tell them about it in their first class? Because I know what's going to happen. They're going to use it and they're going to gravitate right back to that one giant Franken table model where they use the relationships and then use the related function to turn them all into one big wide table and miss the whole point. And so, it's like, "Do I even tell you about it?" It's like, "Do I even tell the IT director that DirectQuery is a thing?" Because, again, it has its purpose. I'm glad it's on the platform, but it's overused.
Greg Beaumont (00:59:09):
I think people confuse single source of truth with a single source of data.
Rob Collie (00:59:13):
Totally. I've heard people say, "How many copies of the data do I need in my organization?" Right? In a very folksy combative tone. Well, you like caches? What about caches? Are you okay with caches?
Greg Beaumont (00:59:24):
And this is another analogy I sometimes use and it's intended to be humorous and keep people's attention. I'm not trying to make a direct comparison here. I just want to call that out. But I call it the Bitcoin problem. So, with Bitcoin, it can handle I think it's 4.7 transactions per second. And people want to use it as a currency the way you use a credit card where Visa may be handled 1700 transactions per second. So there's a problem with going DirectQuery against Bitcoin and that it can't handle the concurrency and the scale.
Greg Beaumont (00:59:55):
And so, there's a lot of these crypto projects out there that are trying to create basically ways to kind of resolve all the transactions and then periodically true up with the source. And I'm not an expert in that area either. I just, I think it's fun to read about. During COVID, I watched some things on Bitcoin when I was stuck at home. I saw a presentation, if anybody gets a chance to check it out, called The Future Will Be Decentralized by Charles Hoskinson, who was the founder of Cardano. And that's when it kind of clicked that they're not just creating fund money, they're creating effectively a whole new economic system or they're trying to create a whole new economic system. And some of the technologies might actually someday replace the Cloud. It's really interesting stuff that they're doing.
Greg Beaumont (01:00:36):
But kind of circling back to where I started, it's kind of the same thing with the database. If you just try to run all the logic directly against the source, you're running massive amounts of logic for massive numbers of users in parallel. And caching reduces some of that pressure and it also allows people to have kind of specialized use cases where you're not doing 20 joins every time you select a filter. You do it once, and then you filter from those results.
Rob Collie (01:01:03):
The Vertapak Engine, the end memory column store, all my years at Microsoft, that was the only thing I was ever close to that felt like what you would expect from a software company in a movie. This was science fiction. This technology was developed. It was sci fi and it was real, and it's still sci-fi today. It's so amazing what it is capable of. It is mind blowing the performance aspects of what it can do, and how effortlessly it can perform them.
Rob Collie (01:01:36):
And to leave that out of your implementation like this magic piece of software, it's impossible what it does. It's still impossible. I still, I don't even remember how it works anymore. To leave that out, you're really leaving a lot on the table. And so, let's talk about what would be some cases where DirectQuery is the right answer?
Greg Beaumont (01:01:54):
Near real time, so when you need data quickly, and you need it to be in the hands of the users without anything in between DirectQuery is absolutely the best use case in that scenario. There's other solutions. I know you've dug deep with Denny Lee recently on Big Data, where when there's just massive amounts of information, you don't want to cache that information. The purpose of caching is not to go get everything. It's to reduce the complexity of the logic. So, if you have a gigantic database, and you need to go get details from it, absolutely DirectQuery is the best option.
Greg Beaumont (01:02:27):
And just when you kind of hit the technical limit of the caching within a tool like Power BI, you have to go to DirectQuery. I mean, there's just a certain point where you get up in the hundreds of gigabytes for a cube and it's going to perform better on DirectQuery mode. Just because the technology kind of hits that limit, where the benefits you get kind of max out and start to degrade.
Rob Collie (01:02:49):
I worked with Chris Finland, when he was in the field on a project where we ended up with, at that time, it was 2013 and maybe, it was 2014. Anyways, SSAS tabular and 3 billion records in the biggest fact table. And this thing was running on 32-gigabyte VM and it was all loaded in RAM. It was having no trouble at all. And this was despite it having an incredibly complicated fact record structure, such that every single fact record in the model, all 3 billion rows, every single one of them was an inception to date number. Not what happened to that month, or that day. As of that day, the number in that database was this was what has happened in this corner of our business rewinding 50 years. This is the grand total over time.
Rob Collie (01:03:37):
And so, even to get the current activity in a particular timeframe, it was a time intelligence measure. The most basic measure in the entire cube like, "What happened that month? How much revenue came in that month?" It was time intelligence, right? You had to take current number and subtract the yesterday number to know what it was. It was like the lights should be flickering every time someone touches this thing. It worked great. I was just, it was stunning.
Greg Beaumont (01:04:05):
So, the one thing I hear where people I work with are going to strongly disagree with me on this is a lot of people still think that caching and middle layers are a Band-Aid until the DirectQuery technology gets better. This is just my personal opinion based on what I've seen and what I've experienced. I see over time where I mean, just imagine this scenario, okay? So, you have a solution that requires row level security and you can have a little note of compute on your local computer that contains just the rows that you're allowed to see with kind of a distributed tabular model.
Greg Beaumont (01:04:37):
That doesn't exist today, but it could potentially in the future versus taking all that data and putting it in one place inside of a data center somewhere and having everybody communicate. To me, it just seems like it would be at least something to consider, right? I'm not an expert in the area, but I don't think that caching and distribution of kind of the logic is going to go anywhere soon. I think it's here to stay for some time.
Rob Collie (01:05:00):
And then you've got this technology whose primary purpose is storage and retrieval. And then you've got this technology that its primary purpose is analysis. And they're going to make different tradeoffs. They have to make different tradeoffs. In fact, one of the reasons why you consider not near real-time, right? Why is near real-time a good use of DirectQuery? Well, because you can't rebuild the Vertapak model multiple times a second. That's a tradeoff, right? It can't be updated at the individual record level like a regular database can be because it made tradeoffs.
Rob Collie (01:05:33):
I think you could almost mathematically prove that the Vertapak engine is close to theoretically optimal, in terms of how fast it is at what it does. You just can't sideline that thing. And it's not like the storage engines are ever, ever, ever, ever going to support a mode of DirectQuery that's going to be that fast. So, yeah, I think that's the way to look at it, right? Is it like you want to use the magic engine, sometimes you just can't. And you should be disappointed at those times. And then happy that DirectQuery is an option, but you should be disappointed that you weren't able to use the magic thing that's going to make everything better.
Greg Beaumont (01:06:09):
I'd add it's usually less expensive, too, but usually the cost of doing it that way is less expensive for the organization and the query performance is still usually better.
Rob Collie (01:06:19):
Yeah. It's a funny story that when I was working on that solution with Chris, back in the day. This was a Christ's reaction. I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the account team, there was a bit of like, "Oh, really?" When we found out that we were able to, because this is back in a very different licensing model. The world back then was very, very different in terms of how Microsoft licensed their software and it was per CPU per machine, whatever, right? And the fact that this gigantic model, with the entire financial history of this Fortune 500 firm, been around forever, was stored in this one model, and was able to be run on a single 32-gigabyte VM was a bit of a bummer to the people who are trying to sell software, right?
Greg Beaumont (01:07:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:07:05):
It's like this absolute apex predator of a project. We get one VM of additional footprint, are you kidding me?
Greg Beaumont (01:07:14):
Yep. Unreal.
Rob Collie (01:07:16):
Hey, Microsoft's loss is your gain, customer.
Greg Beaumont (01:07:24):
I do see still challenges with creating those cache layers. You look at a tool like Aggregations, where it's allowing you to have hidden summary tables sitting behind your fact tables or alongside your fact tables. It's, you really have to understand data modeling to set those up. And you have to understand how it works within the context of the tool and the context of what people are using, but if you go look at the roadmap, within Power BI, you'll see auto ags on the public roadmap, which is the Automatic Generation of Aggregations based upon query patterns. I'll be interested to see how that actually looks when it comes out. I don't have access to anything that's not publicly available. That's out there in the public.
Greg Beaumont (01:08:03):
And then on the synapse side, materialized views is kind of the same thing. And you'll also see a roadmap item for the query accelerator with synapse where it's going to look at the queries. It's getting from Power BI and then spin up materialized views, which for all practical purposes, as I mentioned before, another version of a cache, that will then kind of self-tune the model to get better over time. And hopefully alleviate some of the need for people to actually learn how to do it manually. Again, it's moving from PaaS to SaaS as the other components have.
Rob Collie (01:08:34):
And those sorts of improvements that are in the works. I mean, this is where some of your colleagues get the idea that we're just sort of sitting around waiting for the day of DirectQuery parity. There are developments being made to improve forever, right? We can always improve. We're going to get to Vertapak level.
Greg Beaumont (01:08:48):
Yeah. I see those demos where they say that NLP will replace the data analyst. When you're younger, it's like, "Oh, no, I'm going to be out of a job." Now, it's like, "No, that's I'll be long dead before that ever happens."
Krissy Dyess (01:08:59):
So, Greg, do you have any hobbies outside of work?
Greg Beaumont (01:09:03):
Yeah, we actually kind of live off the beaten path a little bit. It's effectively kind of a small, almost a hobby farm. It used to be a horse ranch, so I spend a lot of time doing stuff in the yard. And this last weekend, residing my garage. I spend a lot of time doing family stuff and things like that. When I'm not working, I don't to be sitting in a desk. It's like I want to go build something with my hands or I want to go somewhere and do something and travel that kind of thing.
Krissy Dyess (01:09:32):
Have you always been in Minnesota, too?
Greg Beaumont (01:09:34):
No. So, I actually came from a military family. I think we moved seven times when I was a kid. Lived all over the country, but we ended up kind of landing here. And my wife's family is from here, so I've got roots that aren't going to be severed. We could be here for some time. Yep.
Krissy Dyess (01:09:50):
Yeah. I kind of have the same thing here in Arizona. I mean, I was able to move around until again, I found my family here and it does make it hard to move when you had set your roots.
Greg Beaumont (01:10:00):
Yeah, with things like teams, everything's virtual now.
Krissy Dyess (01:10:03):
Yeah. It's not the same.
Greg Beaumont (01:10:06):
Yeah, yeah, yep.
Rob Collie (01:10:07):
What is it with Minnesota and BI, though? There's something to it, right? We have more consultants, full-time consultants working for us from the State of Minnesota than any other state.
Greg Beaumont (01:10:17):
Yep. I know a lot of your employees are from Minnesota, and also a lot of people I work within Microsoft are from Minnesota in the data world. I don't know the full answer to that question. I do know that we have a lot of industries here that are very data-centric, right? So, you have a lot of device companies. You have large, probably one of the largest insurance companies that is based out of Minnesota.
Greg Beaumont (01:10:39):
There's a lot of kind of medical innovation happening in Minnesota with the Mayo Clinic down in Rochester and University of Minnesota. And there's also a lot of schools that have very good math programs, and very good engineering programs, even all the way up to Fargo and North Dakota. They upgrade engineering schools up there. So I think there's just kind of a hub of education and technology and industry that kind of combines to kind of find those 5% that you talk about and give them that opportunity.
Rob Collie (01:11:11):
Yeah. On a per capita basis, Minnesota has got serious game in the data space. It's tempting to think of it as, "Ah, it's just small sample size." But I don't think so. I think there is something in the water or equivalent. Maybe, it's the absolutely brutal winters. You've got to find something to... it's like, "Where do you go for football players, we go to the places where it's warm all year. Florida, Texas, California. What do you go for data people? Well, you need to go someplace where if you step outside, four-month window, you just die."
Krissy Dyess (01:11:41):
It's longer than four months.
Greg Beaumont (01:11:44):
It is, yeah. It's probably a five-month winter. The ideal situation would be able to stay here until New Year's, and then probably come back in April, right? I have friends and family, they're going to hate me for saying that because they snowmobile and ice fish and my neighbors across the street will put up an ice house, out on the lake. And so, some people actually love-
Rob Collie (01:12:06):
They're building structures on a lake. Let that sink in.
Greg Beaumont (01:12:12):
Yep. I've heard of stories where up on Lake Mille Lacs, you'll drive a mile or two out on the lake to get to your ice house. And I've heard stories of people who aren't from here going out to the ice house and saying, "Where's the lake?" And they're like, "Oh, the shore is two miles that way."
Rob Collie (01:12:26):
Yeah. That dawning moment of, "Oh, my God. "
Greg Beaumont (01:12:30):
Yep, yep.
Rob Collie (01:12:33):
There were street signs.
Greg Beaumont (01:12:35):
Well, yeah. They actually do have street signs on the lake in the winter. Some of these were posted.
Rob Collie (01:12:41):
I grew up in Florida. And I thought when I went to school in Tennessee, I thought, "Oh, my God, is it cold here," right? And then eventually, I ended up living in Cleveland, I'm like, "Yeah, this is really cold." And then I took a couple of trips in the winter, in February, to Minneapolis. Like, "Oh, my God." I couldn't even keep the ice off of the highways underneath the overpasses. No amount of salt was going to do it. No, no, this is super frozen. Whatever that is, I don't know. Yeah.
Greg Beaumont (01:13:10):
I had a co-worker once, who was born and raised in India, had never left Southern India, and came up here on assignment without ever having seen snow. And it was below zero when they got off the plane. So, I mean, you can imagine the shock, because it is something you have to acclimate to.
Rob Collie (01:13:29):
I can't imagine. I would need, I would need [crosstalk 01:13:31]. And then I remember sitting there going, "Oh, that's right. There's an entire country north of here. What is wrong with those people?"
Krissy Dyess (01:13:38):
It's just-
Rob Collie (01:13:41):
It just seems like the absolute northern edge of human expansion, and then you realize, No, there's a whole industrialized nation up there.
Greg Beaumont (01:13:49):
Yeah. People think of this as being the arctic tundra, but all of Canada is basically north of us.
Rob Collie (01:13:54):
My friend, David Gaynor, who is going to be on an upcoming episode of the show, he grew up in Alberta, you know it's?
Greg Beaumont (01:14:00):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (01:14:01):
Every year we go up in Phoenix. We can go up north, just a couple hours in the Flagstaff in December, maybe January, get a little bit of snow. And the kids, they come up. Families, they bring their children to see snow for the first time and they all do it. They all stick their hands in it. And then that sensation, that burning sensation starts to kick in, and then two minutes later, they're all crying, going back into where they came from. And it's just like every year, you go up and you see these kids for the first time when they touch the snow, right? Like touch it and then immediately in tears.
Rob Collie (01:14:35):
Right. Yeah, it's cool. Hi, Greg, so here as we're sort of closing up, what are some of the things that you see coming, whether they're new technologies or adoption trends that you think are most significant or perhaps you also find particularly personally exciting?
Greg Beaumont (01:14:51):
Yeah, so if we look at some of the new capabilities we've seen in both Power BI and on the Azure side, there's a lot of focus on Machine Learning. AI And combining data from different places to get insights. Something that I think is kind of extremely valuable, but it's just not as prevalent in demos and presentations and things like that is the integration between something like Azure Machine Learning and Power BI, where it's still hard to create a good machine learning model. You probably want, especially in healthcare, you want real data scientists creating your machine learning models. But it used to be really hard to then put that into practice, right? You might have something that does a great job of predicting, but then how would an analyst use that data unless somebody else is just providing it to them.
Greg Beaumont (01:15:38):
Now, you can literally go into Power Query your data flows, and select a machine learning model that you have access to, and then take the corresponding columns of data and map them to the inputs of that machine learning model. Hit go, it will do all the work for you. You don't have to configure any APIs or write any code. And then you're getting access to that predictive technology at your fingertips.
Greg Beaumont (01:16:02):
There's also Auto ML if somebody wants to learn about machine learning, where you can start building simple machine learning models right in Power BI. What I found, though, is that by the time somebody really understands Auto ML, they're usually ready to graduate to the Azure side of the house. But I see that integration of, not only being able to get all of this data from all these different places and tie it together, but then be able to go beyond doing simple math and using machine learning algorithms is kind of the next big thing in both healthcare and beyond.
Rob Collie (01:16:36):
That's a fascinating topic. Long time ago, when I was first working with PowerPivot, I had some friends who had left Microsoft and gone off and formed a machine learning startup, and some of them are back at Microsoft now. Really, really, really smart people. And it was natural for me to try and to collaborate with them and vice versa at that time. None of the PowerPivot models that I was building, it turned out none of them had anything interesting to be found with machine learning.
Rob Collie (01:17:04):
And it was a hard lesson, which was by the time you're done aggregating, overwhelming majority of Power BI models and reports operating at an aggregate level, by the time you're done aggregating, you've kind of lost all of that grain level variation that is interesting to machine learning. So, I learned at that moment that a lot of these technologies are meant to operate at, you can think of it as being like operating at the fact record level, not on the aggregates.
Rob Collie (01:17:33):
And so, whenever I hear about machine learning and Power BI coming together, my brain immediately goes back to those old days of, "Oh, no, these two are incompatible." And that's my first instinctive response. I have to think about it a little bit longer before I go, "Okay, there's actually ways they can interplay." And I haven't tried this thing that you were talking about, but it sounds amazing.
Rob Collie (01:17:54):
At the Power Query level, you could be importing additional columns, you're mapping columns that I'm assuming that you would get back an additional column or multiple columns, with some sort of predictive score, right? Maybe like the percentage chance that this customer is going to be leaving. Attrition risk or whatever, or things of that nature. What's the easiest way to get started with that stuff?
Greg Beaumont (01:18:18):
I think I'd add two things there. So, the easiest way to get started is right in Power BI Desktop. If you open Power Query, it's in the ribbon on the far right hand side, you might have to enable it. But you could start with cognitive services. And you could just say, "For each row of data, for this column, tell me what language that comment was written in?" And you can count how many responses are in Spanish versus English versus Portuguese or whatever it may be.
Greg Beaumont (01:18:41):
Another example would be sentiment analysis, right? And this one is always funny in healthcare, because sentiment analysis is looking at words and then saying positive, neutral, negative from I think zero to one. But in healthcare, the words mean different things, so there was one that came out as being extremely positive. It was tenderness, right? Because in healthcare, it means you're sore and you hurt. But outside of healthcare, it's a positive emotional word, right? Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:19:08):
There's also doctor speak in general, which is like it requires a completely different sentiment filter. I had a salivary gland tumor removed recently, which I'm fine now. But if you read the pathology report on what was going on with me, right? As a human being, non-trained professional.
Greg Beaumont (01:19:25):
Scary, yep.
Rob Collie (01:19:25):
And you read that, you'd be like, "Oh, man, Rob, you're going to die." So, I don't... yeah. I wouldn't want to the sort of the vanilla sentiment analysis looking at that.
Greg Beaumont (01:19:37):
I wanted to add one more use case, too. So, you referred to doing predictions on aggregations. One use case where that might actually be applicable is let's just say somebody wants to do a simple forecast. Right? You can do this right in Auto ML. I'm actually working on a demo on for it right now. I don't have it ready to go where the analyst comes in and says, "I want to forecast at the level of the individual provider by day, by disease category, by department," something like that. And then you do the forecast and you find it's not very accurate.
Greg Beaumont (01:20:09):
Well, you can maybe make an aggregation where you roll up the forecast to the level of by physician by week, rather than day, so on and so forth. And change the level of granularity. Rerun the Auto ML test to see how accurate it is. And then you could go back to your data science team and say, "Maybe we want to do the predictions at this level of granularity, because that's the accuracy level that I'm looking for." I agree with you that 99 times out of 100, you want the most granular data for those types of efforts. There are those scenarios we're kind of...
Rob Collie (01:20:41):
Totally.
Greg Beaumont (01:20:41):
... coming up with summary tables to do the predictions to have that be more agile. I think it's going to create a lot of value.
Rob Collie (01:20:47):
I'm mostly just reflecting my frustration from that era. We were failing to find anything useful. My friends at startup were telling me, "Yeah, Rob, you just don't understand how this stuff works yet or you can't aggregate like that." I was still very stubbornly insisting that "Okay, come on." There's still entities in the world, for example, like a store. Let's say you're a chain with 500 locations. You have all kinds of interesting attributes at each of those locations. "Is it a two-story store? Is it the deluxe store? It's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Does it have the pharmacy built in or not?" But all kinds of these aspects, right?
Rob Collie (01:21:18):
And you would never predict future transactions on a transaction level? Doesn't make any sense, right? What would you forecast this store's revenue to be next month, right? So, completely valid machine learning problem. And so, I'm glad we did circle back to this because I never had the right kind of data to drive that sort of analysis, that sort of machine learning analysis. It just didn't happen to exist in the models I was using at that time. I wouldn't want people to come away from this going, "Oh, no, you can never. Machine learning and aggregate level are incompatible." That would be the wrong conclusion. It was just harder to get to that point than I had expected. I sort of naively expected it to just like, "Okay, here we go jump off the page." And it didn't.
Greg Beaumont (01:22:03):
I agree with you. If they could ever find a way to combine multidimensional compute with predictive technologies that would be kind of the Holy Grail.
Rob Collie (01:22:12):
Greg, I can't thank you enough. You brought so many really interesting perspectives. I'm really grateful for the thoughtful approach that you've taken and I think people are really going to appreciate this episode. So, many, many, many thanks. Thanks for being here.
Greg Beaumont (01:22:26):
Yeah. And thanks for the opportunity. And I was listening to the show even before Krissy reached out. The service you're doing for the community here is absolutely fantastic. Thank you.
Rob Collie (01:22:35):
Thank you very much. That's really gratifying to hear.
Announcer (01:22:37):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Beyonce, Prince, Madonna...Like so many of these iconic one word name celebrities in the music world, Chandoo is as unique and talented as they come in the data world! His story is quite inspiring, his heart and soul are warm, and his brain is brimming with great ideas!
All Things Chandoo:
- Chandoo.Org
- Chandoo's Youtube
- Power BI Playdate
- Budget VS Actual Articles
Some Creators and Channels that inspire Chandoo:
- ElectroBoom
- Weezy Waiter
- Hybrid Calisthenics
- Ali Abdaal
References in this episode:
- Mike Miskell Tribute To The Wolf
Episode Timeline: * 4:40 - Chandoo's introduction to Excel was born from necessity (like many of us!), The birth of Chandoo.org (often imitated, never duplicated), and the uniqueness of Chandoo that makes him a huge success * 31:50 - Chandoo's Excel Dashboarding is exquisite, his transition to Power BI, and what really matters in one's career * 54:10 - Chandoo the Excel celebrity and the Power BI celebrity, Lambda functions, and a curveball question for Chandoo about working for Microsoft * 1:06:25 - Chandoo and Rob cross paths, Chandoo's iconic hair, the Game-Changing features of Power BI, and some Power BI hacks * 1:33:45 - What's next for Chandoo?
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Think for a moment about the people that you're aware of, who only go by a single word name. They're usually musicians, Prince, Madonna, Cher, Beyonce. There are a couple of non-musician examples that come to mind like Oprah, for instance. These tend to be celebrities on the world stage. Well, today's guest is the rare exception that pulls that off within the Excel, Power BI, and data community. And I'm talking, of course, about Chandoo. Chandoo is one of the completely original early stage MVP-type celebrities within our community. He blazed a path that now hundreds, if not thousands of people have followed. And sometimes with things like this, it's really that first-mover advantage that really sets someone apart and he did, in fact, have that kind of first-mover advantage. But he is still, to this day, so incredibly unique that I challenge anyone to actually truly duplicate him.
Rob Collie (00:01:06):
He is legitimately one of a kind. And for me, he's been there literally since the beginning, even physically, since the beginning. He and his family came to live near us in the United States for a summer. That first summer after which I had formed P3 as a company. With someone as gifted as Chandoo, it's always easy and tempting to sort of assume that they've always been doing what they're doing. And he is very gifted, but it's not like those gifts, where always from the beginning, oriented towards something like Excel. Just like many of us, he had to have his collides with moment, the moment where you bounce off of Excel or you stick to it and obviously, he's stuck. So, of course, we go back to and explore that origin story. And also, like many professionals in this space, Chandoo has, over the years, branched out from Excel into Power BI, creating such wonderful offerings like the Power BI Play Date, which we talk about a little bit.
Rob Collie (00:02:07):
So, we talk about that, what it's like coming from the Excel background and digging into Power BI. He had some unexpected observations there that once I heard them, I was just nodding. "Yep. Yep. That's right." And that conversation also then led to a familiar conclusion that again, I wouldn't have expected from Chandoo, but of course, I should have. And another part of the conversation, we also talked about where he looked for inspiration, where he looked for stimulation and new ideas. It was great to catch up with an old friend, who was also just a wise and dynamic soul. So, without further preamble, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:48):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host, Rob Collie and your cohost, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:03:12):
Welcome to the show, the one and only Chandoo, how are you?
Chandoo (00:03:17):
I am doing good, Rob. How are you?
Rob Collie (00:03:19):
Fantastic. Been looking forward to this for a while. We've been trying to schedule this for probably three or four months now. And here we are like a power reserve. We saved a Chandoo interview very carefully for that six months over the podcast. Actually, how many months are we in now, Luke? Is this our 10th month?
Luke (00:03:37):
Start on October, early October.
Rob Collie (00:03:40):
We're potentially in our 10th month. That's what we do. We lose track of time. You're one of the sort of original internet celebrity instructors, often imitated. There's a lot of people who I've seen, sort of explicitly trying to follow in your footsteps and to varying degrees of success. You're not a formula that really others can follow because there really is, and this is awesome to say this. There really is only one you. I've learned that when we actually met. I didn't know that over the internet. How'd you get started on Excel? That was the beginning, right?
Chandoo (00:04:22):
It's a long story, but that's what we're here for, anyway.
Rob Collie (00:04:25):
That's right.
Chandoo (00:04:26):
So, I first remember using Excel all the way back in 2000. There were times before that I used it, but 2003 is the first real moment in my life when I actually used Excel for something. And this is not even to do anything with what I'm doing nowadays with Excel or Power BI. So, the reason why I use it at that point in life is I was preparing for some computer exams. So, I just finished my graduate studies in computer science, and I started working, but simultaneously, I was preparing for some MBA exams. And in India, there is a lot of competition when it comes to getting into a good college for doing your masters. So, they have all these highly competitive exams where sometimes, upwards of 200,000 people will take the exam and just about 500, 600 people will actually be admitted into the college.
Rob Collie (00:05:20):
Wow. As like a 0.1% acceptance rate.
Chandoo (00:05:25):
Yeah. You look at the Ivy League and other top university acceptance rates and then, take it to India. Then, it is nowhere near, like you'd be amazed at the craziness that goes on with some of these places. There are a couple of reasons like India has billion people, right? Obviously, there's lots of competition. On top, there were fewer universities at that point of time. The government has added many more now, but still, with our number of people, it is very less compared. So, there is all these factors for that reason. The competition is very high. As part of preparation strategy, everybody would go and take a lot of extra lessons outside just to learn how to prepare for the exam. And then, they'll take these mock examinations sometimes upwards of 25 or 50 in a year just to prepare for the real thing. And there's only one real thing that's a physical thing at that time.
Chandoo (00:06:19):
So, you can't really make mistakes when the real exam happens, but you have all the luxury of making mistakes in this mock-up stage or that you can learn. And because there is a lot of data coming in from all these exams, right? When I take an exam, there's like 200 questions or 150 questions and I would attempt some. I'll get some right, some wrong. I could use Excel to just keep track of what I'm doing in these exams, what mistakes I'm making, and if I spot a pattern like this automatic question, I'm making the same mistake again and again, then I will change my study of course to plan and address that particular gap or try to change my strategy, so that I won't attempt that area of questions and instead, focus my time on other things.
Chandoo (00:07:01):
So, that's really when I used Excel and I made this massive spreadsheet just to keep track of what I was doing in those exams. And it kind of really helped me finally get a good grade in that and get into college for my masters. But obviously, you can say Excel is built for anything and everything. So, that was one of the use cases, but I was not really using any of the formulas or none of the power of Excel. And I didn't even know what it is capable of, but that was the one vivid memory of Excel early on.
Rob Collie (00:07:35):
Do you still have a copy of that spreadsheet somewhere?
Chandoo (00:07:38):
Many people ask me this. This is simply because back in 2003, 2004, internet is still kind of very nascent in India. It started off as a Yahoo Group. I don't know if you remember, like Yahoo Groups. It's like a collaboration.
Rob Collie (00:07:52):
I do.
Chandoo (00:07:53):
But then later on, the forums were a big thing. So, 2003 was the time when in India, we have these preparatory forums where many of us who are all over the country would log in there once in a while, share our stories of how we are preparing, what we are doing, what is going on right, what is going on wrong. So, we could all learn from each other and collaborate, and win this exam. So, I posted a story of how I prepared when I finished the exam and the spreadsheet was part of that story. And then, many people asked us, "Can we get a copy of this?" But in those days, I didn't even have internet at my home. I would go to my workplace to submit something to this forum. So, the spreadsheet was in my home computer and I think I lost it. I don't think I have it anywhere, or it's probably still in my Yahoo Mail. The password of which I no longer remember, or even use. It's gone.
Rob Collie (00:08:46):
So much of things like that from that era, for me, even though I had great internet at the time, so many of those things are lost because we didn't really have the cloud file storage yet. Today, anything that I ever think is even remotely, possibly valuable, immediately gets saved to Dropbox. I've got terabytes of Dropbox space that I'm never going to ever use in my life. So, everything is saved past a certain point. But before that, it's kind of almost like in geology, it's below this certain rock layer where the earth just kind of ground, everything's gone. So, it makes sense that it's gone. Do you remember how many columns were in that spreadsheet? Roughly, was it question number and right or wrong answer, that kind of thing? Was that what it was?
Chandoo (00:09:33):
It's not exactly like that. It was not even structured that way because I didn't even know how to use Excel at that point. I think I started off putting stuff in a notepad file or something. And then, I thought, "Man, this sucks because there is no way to visually see or identify things here." So just, I opened an Excel spreadsheet and started putting it there. This is not a podcast on that exam, but that exam used to have like four or five different sections. It is all quite random. You wouldn't believe, there is no set pattern or anything. The number of questions, number of sections, everything could change at any point.
Chandoo (00:10:07):
There is no official director that these are the things that you would be tested, but the general outline is you would have questions on English, you'd have questions on mathematics. And then, the mathematics itself is split into couple of areas. So, one is arithmetic and then the other is it's called logical reasoning. And then, sometimes, they would further split that into understanding data and graphs and making business decisions from it. So, three or four sections, essentially. So, there's, I think, four big columns. Some of them had further split into multiple columns based on what the heck I was doing. If I think, "Oh, maybe I should keep track of this." Then, I would just put something there and fill some color in there just to remind me what it is.
Rob Collie (00:10:51):
My daughter is, right now, in the middle of taking the college entrance exams, SAT and ACT here in the United States, and it would never occur to me to spreadsheet. And she's trying to get her scores to a particular level to get to a particular college, right? It takes some effort. It would still never have occurred to me. And now, I'm wondering if it should have. Never have occurred to me to make a spreadsheet, where she's performing well and where some opportunity to raise score.
Chandoo (00:11:18):
They probably have access to better tools and apps and stuff like that these days. But yeah, a spreadsheet is the original app, I think.
Rob Collie (00:11:27):
Yeah, it is. It is. I think that necessity is so often the spark. The Olympics just wrapped up. You watch these events where everyone looks like they're doing exactly the same thing. They're using exactly the same form. And then, it's like a couple of millimeters or something that separates the gold medalist from the fifth place. The expert watching says, "Oh, see right here where this person's little toe kind of flaps the wrong way. That was a big mistake." That's what costs them. And it kind of seems like that when there's 200,000 people competing for a few hundred spots. It's like that, right? Like one question is going to drop your rank by potentially thousands of people.
Chandoo (00:12:12):
Yeah, totally right.
Rob Collie (00:12:13):
The pressure.
Chandoo (00:12:14):
There is a lot of pressure and I think, it is probably one of those formative things in my life, too, that having been through that journey. So the exam, I took it during my final year of college because I thought I know why go and work for some time. I might just finish my graduation and then, just go for post-grad. But I didn't get anywhere near the required cutoff to actually go in and make it for the colleges. So, and I felt really bad because I thought all this was like something that I would easily get.
Chandoo (00:12:44):
I used to have this self-perception that, "Yes, I'm awesome." In college, you are in a bubble, right? You're not really aware of this wider world out there where there's another 195,000 people who are also writing this. So, that was the wakening call for me. And then I thought, "Oh man, I need to actually sit and strategize this and prepare for it." Like I'm attacking this rather than just wake up and go and right. So, that's preparation became a real thing and I prioritize that, set aside time for it every day. And then, we'll track the shit out of it every day, really.
Rob Collie (00:13:20):
Yeah. Like I've told this story on this podcast before, but it's metaphorical. I go out to a field day, almost like miniature Olympics for a middle school. I was probably like in eighth grade, and I was going to run this race. It's one lap around the track, which to me seems like a distance race. Your kids can be a fast jog and that starting gun went off and I come out in the fast jog and the other guys are all sprinting from the very beginning. And there's this moment of realization like, "Oh, it's going to be like that." Next thing you know, I'm sprinting. I think I've experienced multiple junctures in my life that are like this. You think you're just going to go and do your thing and just be yourself and be excellent and just be your own self-image that you've very carefully curated for yourself without realizing it. And then, the real world goes, "Oh no, uh-uh (negative). That's not going to cut it." It's a real shock, isn't it?
Chandoo (00:14:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:22):
I've had many of those.
Chandoo (00:14:24):
And I think, that is necessary, especially, probably if you get that kind of a shock too late in your life, you might be too set in your ways to change anything. But when you are becoming an adult, when you are still forming your opinions and ideas about the world, having as much of these experiences as needed is very much necessary, I feel. I mean, even today, I would welcome that kind of things. But growing up, I look back and I think, "Ah, man, that was really what made me who I am today."
Rob Collie (00:14:54):
Microsoft was a big moment like that for me. That was a moment that lasted years. That was a bad one. I still have all kinds of relatively civil disagreements with my ex-wife about raising our teens. And I'm always of the opinion that like, "Oh no, no, no. The earlier they can experience failure, the better because the consequences are lower. The amortized benefit over time is greater." She's of the opposite. She's there to catch them and prevent any sort of failure, very proactively avoiding failure for them. And I'm like, "Oh no, no, no, no, let them fall. It's it's good for them."
Chandoo (00:15:38):
I feel like maybe, I have lucked out. I mean, obviously, every parent is so protective of their child, but early on, I think when I was in fifth class, which is like year five in school, I was sent to a boarding school and I never really went back home. I just bumped it from one boarding school to boarding college, to uni, which is also not my place. So, I was never really around my parents for them to kind of catch me if I make stupid choices. It was all like, "You figure it out." And this is all in late '90s, early 2000s when there is no internet, no mobile phone. I still remember, if I ran out of the money, I would have to write a letter, post it, and this would take minimum of three days unless I do some sort of an express mailing, which obviously costs more.
Chandoo (00:16:27):
So, I'd go for the cheapest thing, postcard. And then, I'll go to my home three days later and they would have to money order the money. There's no bank account concept also. So, they'll have to send it through a postal money order. So, there's actually a lag of like seven or sometimes upwards of 10 days time. And sometimes, they may not even have the money. They might say, Oh wait, we'll send it to you after the first week of the month or whatever." It's all like, yeah. You figure it out, really.
Rob Collie (00:16:56):
Yeah. There's a week of maybe not eating.
Chandoo (00:17:01):
You'll have to figure it out. That's pretty much it.
Rob Collie (00:17:04):
That's it, yeah. All right. So, that was your first brush with it, like for real. But then, obviously, later, your Twitter handle, is it still r1c1?
Chandoo (00:17:15):
Yes, it is. I wouldn't let go of that.
Rob Collie (00:17:18):
No, that is an awesome one. I mean, even people who use Excel a lot don't always know about R1C1 notation. So, you end up in a very different strata of Excel skill. At some point later, you ended up in a number of other countries at one point, right? Like you were moving around the world, working for, was a consulting firm.
Chandoo (00:17:40):
Yeah. I think the real shift to Excel began a little later, especially after I finished my post-graduation. I started working as a consultant with one of the biggest technology companies in India and they basically go around the world, help other companies do their IT better. And it's a very large company. And I was working within the finance and insurance vertical of that company. Obviously, I am not really there to develop software because my role there is to understand what the clients want, translate that into technical terms, so that the software developers, designers, and testers can do their job. So, essentially, I'm a business analyst and it's a fancy word of saying that you would be using PowerPoint and Excel every day. That's pretty much what I was doing. I was building a lot of models, making presentations, taking complex concepts, and simplifying them into Word or Excel, so developers can take that and do their job better.
Chandoo (00:18:39):
So, early on, I realized, "Man, if I don't know Excel, I'm going to just stay behind in this job." And that's not something that they teach in college. The college is all about, how do you prepare marketing strategy for the fortune, 500 company? And here I am, just sitting in the cubicle, figuring out, "Oh, how do I analyze this? And how do I figure out what's going on with these bunch of projects so that we could improve something?" So, Excel became the real world application that I would use six to eight hours every day. And there were all these colleagues right next to me who do all these amazing models in Excel to figure out the costing for a project or all sorts of things. And I would know nothing about that and I felt really bad.
Chandoo (00:19:21):
But early on in that job, I was not really doing anything worthwhile. I was just kind of like an apprentice. So, I would only do odd jobs. So, I had a lot of, you could say free time, but I would think that as learning time. So, all I would do is I'd open up Excel. I'd click on random buttons to see, "Oh, what this does. Oh, indirect function, what this would do." So, that got me really curious and I started building some silly things for my personal life, like I'll bill a budget in Excel just to understand how things work, how to make it better. And at one point, I thought, I steadily bumped into something that looks so interesting. And I thought nobody in the world would know about this. I felt like, and I discovered something and they already had my chandoo.org website by then because I am always fascinated by tech.
Chandoo (00:20:08):
So, I had website created couple of years before, really just as a personal project and I put all my personal life stories there. So, I thought, "Oh, maybe I should just put it on my blog and talk about this new thing that I discovered in Excel." And I put it there. Obviously, it's not a discovery. It's something that people have been doing for ages. It's just that in my own silo, I thought this was new. But when I put there, I got a random comment from somebody in a different part of the world. And that was a weird experience because up until that time, the only people who read the blog are my friends or people who I personally know. I'll tell them, "Hey, I have this blog," and they'll go and read it and they'll comment. But then, I got this comment from a strange dude all over in a different part of the world saying, "You know what, you could also do this to improve the chart."
Chandoo (00:20:57):
And that kind of blew me like, "Oh, there is actually a community of Excel users who are collaborating and sharing information." And I started slowly doing that over time. And one thing led to another and it kind of blew really out of proportion that at some point, I was actually doing two jobs, right? This consulting job, as well as maintaining the blog in the weekends and nights, just keeping up with the traffic, as well as sharing information, collaborating with people in the comments and email. It became too much. But I also thought, maybe I could go and launch a product here to see if this could become a business. And again, none of this was intentional. It was simply, I would write an article and people will say, "Hey, if you put a template around this, we would buy it."
Chandoo (00:21:43):
And then, I thought, "Oh, really? You'd pay for this? Okay. Let's just see this." So, that's how things really happen. So, this all began in 2006, but around 2009, after three years of doing that, I left my job so that I could just do this full time. And by then, I had a bunch of not really products. I had two products, main products. So, one is an online Excel class, and the other is a set of project management templates built in Excel. And that's pretty much where it kind of really went from a blog website to a business and a life thing for me.
Rob Collie (00:22:20):
There are some echoes of some other people's stories in that. There's a little bit of parallel for me. I started my blog after you started yours. I started mine in 2009, long before I really knew what sort of business opportunities would come out of it. I kind of knew that there was a consulting company to be created around this new stuff, but the world wasn't ready for that. I wasn't ready for that. So, the blog existed for a long time before we became a company. It sounds a little bit like Bill Jelen story. It sounds a little bit like Adam Saxton, Guy in a Cube, right? Like it's almost always this side thing. That's just like a passion thing that eventually morphs into something more.
Chandoo (00:23:08):
You could kind of say that the formula, but again, there are many people who might either give up halfway through the journey simply because life got in the way, or they'd never really got to a point where it could become a self-sustaining thing. And also, some other people might be so lucky as today. From day one, they vision it as a business. But for many of us in this particular group, I think it all happened almost like a series of accidents really, rather than... Looking back, you might think, "Oh, that was a genius strategy to have a blog and this and that." And there's nothing really deliberate there.
Rob Collie (00:23:48):
Oh, I completely agree. It's like the same thing people tell me about the books that I wrote. "Oh, it's such genius that you wrote it in that informal non-tech book tone, Rob." And I go, "Well, it turned out though," but at the time, it was just a survival strategy. I couldn't get through writing that thing in the other voice.
Chandoo (00:24:09):
Yeah, I wouldn't have imagine. I think that's the thing, right? It is always good to look back and try to figure out or maybe there's a picture that we draw with all these random dots on the paper. There were other dots...
Rob Collie (00:24:24):
Or just let other people draw it for you. It's usually more flattering, than what you would draw for yourself, looking back. One of the things that we do on this show is we compliment our guests. We almost like attempt to make you uncomfortable with praise, but it's authentic, right? We don't go out of our way to manufacture things. So, again, I've seen multiple people, almost like explicitly try to copy the Chandoo formula. They've looked in from the outside and gone, "Wow, look at that," right? And go and try to copy it. And it's easier said than done because it turns out that the person behind the Chandoo formula is a little bit unique, like your personality and creativity and humanity.
Rob Collie (00:25:14):
You integrate that into this technical stuff in a way that you either have that or you don't. You can coach it up in yourself to a certain extent, but to go with all the hard work, there are some innate characteristics that we all look into them or don't look into them and that creativity and that sense of fun and whimsy, it's easy to tell when someone's forcing it. If people have very, very, very good radar for that, you're just so dang quirky in a such a good way. I mean that completely, as a compliment, I call some of my best friends freak shows. It's so cool and to have gotten to know you personally, we haven't necessarily kept in the closest touch, but we definitely got to know each other personally back in the day, and that was awesome.
Chandoo (00:26:13):
It is awesome. Talking about that formula, you could say it's a formula, but I would say it's one of the proven ways of growing your online brand and making it into a sustainable business. And it's nothing new that I invented. I think you could say, maybe I had lucked out by starting early because around 2003, 2004, that's pretty much when the ecosystem of these blogs and in personal branding was kind of like picking up in a more rapid fashion, just because there's more people with internet, there is more... For example, back in '90s, if you have to create a website, you wouldn't really know where to begin. But 2000s was slightly different because there's software like WordPress or BlogSpot and other stuff, which makes it easy for anybody to get them and then, put their...
Chandoo (00:27:03):
Which makes it easy for anybody to get on and then put their story out in the front of millions of people. Of course, people may or may not read it, but it was easy for me to put it out. And I think what I did early on is I would read a lot of blogs about growing an online business and an online brand. And this was also not deliberate, it so happened that those were the guys who were loudest in the blogosphere. So if for every 10 articles that are out there, five and six of them would be about the small business or teaching stuff or selling stuff. There's a lot of that, and I would read that and I would think, "Oh, this is a good idea, maybe I should include it in what I'm doing. And this is a good idea, maybe I should do it." But there is also some things that you are gifted with, not really gifted, but those are the things that were a part of your personality even before you jumped into this business world.
Chandoo (00:27:54):
You either grew up as an introvert or an extrovert, you either have flair for technology or you don't, and you either have good understanding of the language or you don't, and all of those things. So that's really our personality mix. So there is a strange combination of all of these weird things that really helped me reach the audience and say things. And also, keep it fun. I look back and I think, "Oh man, I put a joke in here without even trying." I think that's because I really enjoy... That's the way I liked to say things. My kids are now quite old and they're at a point where they're getting annoyed with all the jokes that I put, but they also appreciate that Dad probably is not going to ever be serious about... I mean, I am serious, I think about everything, but it's just that he's not going to be a strict dad, he's going to be a fun dad. That's really the kind of thing that they say.
Chandoo (00:28:53):
So that's really me. And I think that was part of the thing. But people can go and take the formula, which is really what I did. When I launched my first online course, I had no clue what to do. So I read this article, they were already doing some online courses in a different field, and one of the suggestions they gave is, you don't have to record the whole thing to sell it. Up until that point, I was thinking I had to create this 20 hour course before I could actually go and sell it. But they said, "Maybe make one or two modules first and then go and start marketing, go and start selling, because there may not be a market for what you're offering, so go and do it."
Chandoo (00:29:33):
So that's really what I did. I was working in Sweden at that time, and Nishant and Nakshatra were just born, and Jo was with them in India. Because of my consulting job, I'd go to all these places. So I was in Denmark and Sweden that time. And I launched this course, I said that, "Hey, there is Excel School now, please go and sign up." and I created only one module, one or two modules. Then I sold it, and I thought maybe five or 10 will buy it, it's about 60 to $100, the course. In my mind, that was a lot of money. Even today, it is a lot of money, but I felt like at that point, that is big bucks. And I think around 100 people bought it. And that really scared the shit out of me because when you take 100 times 100, that's almost $10,000 really.
Chandoo (00:30:22):
And $10,000 was sitting in my PayPal account, close to that. And $10,000 is close to my salary if I'm working in India, that's my annual salary at that point in life. But because I was working in Sweden, I would get overseas payments, so it was almost $50,000, that's how much I was making at that time. But I was thinking in my Indian mindset, "I'm making all my annual salary by selling this one course, which is not even ready." So it scared me. And I thought, "Man, I need to do it right by these people. They paid for it, they bought it, I need to deliver it to them, I only made two modules." So I left my job, went back to India, finished recording the rest of it and launched the course. So that's how I learned, and that's the formula that I show in my blog and sharing my personal stories, because I want others to take these ideas as well. But I think the key thing people might miss out is putting their personality into it.
Chandoo (00:31:19):
If you just want to fake it all the way, then it might be hard, but if you bring yourself in your perspective and your life and your values into it, that will make it your own, and you're no longer cloning anything you're taking the best of what is working for others and mashing it up.
Rob Collie (00:31:35):
Now, at some point on this journey, not to narrow you in too much, you were running Excel School, it's general purpose. One of the things I think you became known for as an outlier, even within that space was the dashboarding that you would do in Excel. Now that's where we saw the Mozart in Chandoo. I mean, holy cow, people would look at the stuff that you would build in Excel, and it's gorgeous, it's just so beautiful. And everyone... Not everyone, but a lot of people that I knew, very wise, people knew that the quality of their work was going to be judged by the visual impact that their spreadsheets would have. And people would go to your site, and again, they would go to your site for many reasons, but the one that I disproportionately encountered was people saying, "Yeah, we go get the slick Excel visuals from Chandoo." And this is particularly relevant as the world is experiencing the onset of Power BI. And I know you've diversified, you're not just the Excel guy anymore. I mean, heck you did a Power Pivot class for that, in what, 2012, 2013.
Rob Collie (00:33:07):
I honestly haven't kept close tabs on what you've been doing with Power BI. And that is a real shame because if, and again, I haven't looked, maybe I haven't looked because I don't want to feel inadequate, but as rich of a canvas as Excel is for dashboard creation, oh my gosh, Power BI has really hit critical mass on the things you can do in their report canvas. I feel like now I need to have a Christmas morning moment where I go open up a bunch of Chandoo-approved Power BI reports and go, "Oh my God." Does it speak to you? How's that transition been?
Chandoo (00:33:51):
Yeah, it's been very good, but also there were a couple of things that stopped me from really going full on when the Power BI way was going up. The number one thing is, between 2015 and 2016, that's when Power BI was gaining that initial momentum, I have been blogging and talking about Power BI as well, but we also chose to move from India to New Zealand. So that was a big move, you are taking all your life that you have been rooting in one country and then now suddenly you uplift and you go to a different part of the world. It is both physically and emotionally very hard experience to go set yourself up in a different place, make new friends and start your life all over again. And also around 2015, you could say, I reached a point where, and I'm not trying to brag or anything, it's just the fact of the matter is, I reached a point where there is no financial incentive that would motivate me to do things.
Chandoo (00:34:54):
I am very happy with what I have in my life. I have a very good family, enough money to sustain whatever I want to do for the rest of my life, and everything was there. So there is really no carrot in front of me that will chase me to go and get it. I mean, I would only have to do it if I am enjoying this. So for me, the enjoyment started shifting slowly from running a website to other things, like maybe becoming a better cyclist or being around the kids with their life or playing with Lego or doing video games or doing other fun craft things. Because one of the challenges of being creative in any field, I guess, you can't be creative all the while if you're just doing it not for fun reasons, but for something else. I thought, "Maybe I had my day, I'm enjoying things. I don't need to push myself harder." So that's when I turned a blind eye to Power BI, not just to Power, to Excel also. And I would only blog once or twice a month, and that's pretty much it.
Chandoo (00:35:57):
I would still produce good quality content that I'm enjoying, but I got myself into a place where there are so many other things and balls juggling in the air that I thought, "Okay, this is enough." But after settling down in New Zealand and after things calmed down a bit, that's when I started thinking, "Okay, I need to figure out what I'm doing with my time. You're not really doing it for money or anything, but there is also, you have time." I try to rekindle that passion for data and for helping people become good in their lives. So naturally I reassessed like, "Okay, what are the things that we have available today? So there's Excel, there is obviously Power BI and then there is other tools coming in." Simultaneously, I would do some consulting work for the local government here in New Zealand. So I'd get into situations where the data or the challenges were different than the ones that I have experienced previously. So I'm learning a lot, and I thought, "Okay." Again, my go-to point when I learn something new is, put it out on the blog so other people can also learn.
Chandoo (00:37:00):
So I created a course on Power BI, it's called Power BI Play Date. I teach dashboards and stuff like that in there. I tried to replicate some of that Xcel crafting and that sort of dashboard mindset, which tries to tell a compelling story and provide a good narrative to the end user rather than just use things for the heck of using it within Power BI. Now, Power BI is a different platform altogether. So it has its own rules and it has its own canvas and things like that, where there are set limitations imposed by the nature of things. Like in Excel, you may have to explain 10 things, but within Power BI, because of the interactions, you don't have to explain 10 things, you have to let your audience know that there are 10 things there, but only bring the important bits out and let them figure out the rest.
Chandoo (00:37:50):
So I do this and I enjoy it. I run the course and I do more around Power BI these days than I do on Excel. I run corporate trainings and stuff like that as well. It is a different platform and I enjoy building stuff on Power BI. What I do find a little bit lacking though, and I think it's just still evolving, it's too early for us to go and put judgment on Power BI on this space, which is the visuals, sometimes they are not up to the mark and not everything that you want to achieve to get the correct and accurate representation of the information, are straightforward within Power BI. There's probably custom visuals AND heavy customization you could do, but one of my core principles when I build anything with any software is, that we humans should be lazy. But if I am ending up clicking 300 times to format a bar chart, then I'm like, "What the heck? This should be simple."
Rob Collie (00:38:46):
Yeah. It is very clicky with the formatting.
Chandoo (00:38:53):
Yeah. I mean, there is Format Painter, but I feel like even after all the formatting, it will not get you nowhere near as good as a visual that you could produce in R or Excel, or any other tool for that matter. This is simply because I think they went in a different direction, maybe deliberately to enable that sort of interact to things. So everything needs to interact, or hence not everything that you could do in other tools is possible. But it's a visual software, the whole output of whatever you create in Power BI. You might build an amazing model and beautiful measures, but nothing is visible until you put a visual there. So the visuals need to be the hero of that platform, but I feel like the focus has been heavily on the data and modeling side of things. You need those, I guess, but now that they're stable, I wish Microsoft would put in more effort into the visual space and try to make them right and make them easy for the audience to build and work on them.
Rob Collie (00:39:53):
If you're interested in providing feedback, I can certainly connect you with the people that would like to hear it.
Chandoo (00:40:00):
I think.
Rob Collie (00:40:02):
It is very difficult. So, it's funny, the job that you worked at the consulting firm, you're the business analyst, that's exactly the job I had at Microsoft, which is trying to absorb what the customers need. And what they want and what they need aren't necessarily the same thing. Try to absorb all of that and then translate it to the tech crew to implement, while at the same time trying to simplify everything. That's exactly...So you were doing that for custom line of business software projects, probably, for the consulting firm, and I was doing it for things like Excel, but it's the same job.
Chandoo (00:40:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:40:34):
And for the people at Microsoft who have this job, doing that for Power BI, it's actually really hard sometimes to see the forest for the trees. You're so down in the details, it is a gift for someone in that role to be given any sort of thoughtful, structured feedback, or thoughtful, structured advice. Like on the visual layer, I would not be one that you would want to take that kind of structured advice, it's not really my forte, different beast, the Chandoo.
Rob Collie (00:41:10):
Okay. I was going to make this joke, which is that you're doing it wrong. If you have that kind of perspective where you reached the tipping point where the financial incentive isn't the primary driver, in my experience, from watching a bunch of Microsoft executives anyway, that's when you need to tell yourself that it isn't enough. And you need to just pick a taller hill and go climb that, and never be complete, never be fulfilled. And there are so many people like that. I haven't reached that point in my life that you're describing. That's something I strive for. I think that I'll be more like you and less like some of the people that I saw at Microsoft, who had everything, and still wrecked themselves after having everything. And it was really sad to watch it. I think a lot of celebrities in business are driven by this perpetual insecurity, that you fortunately, you're not driven by that.
Chandoo (00:42:07):
Yeah. I think, again, it's not portraying myself as I have no insecurities or I don't feel inadequate in any which way, it's just that at least I am aware from time to time, and I take a point... Like if I feel anxious for some reason and feel myself like I'm running towards this or that from time to time, I try to at least pull myself back and take a stop and at least try to admire what is already there, what is available and what we have achieved. And that lets me calm down a bit. Obviously there is no value in running for itself, but you don't want to be standing still and just admire the beauty. Also, there is some amount of effort you need to put in because that will make you feel fulfilled, having some fulfillment in your day, but it need not be just the amount of money that you are generating on an ongoing basis alone.
Chandoo (00:43:00):
At least that's my value. They might derive satisfaction just by running and chasing more money, and that's what makes them happy, they can do it. So you remember the time when you were not there or you were there, but we all went to Chicago from Cleveland when I was in US? And Jocelyn and I, we were driving in one car. So we rented this car, and I think you were driving in another car or something. And we went to, was it Jocelyn's sister or was it-
Rob Collie (00:43:26):
Yeah.
Chandoo (00:43:26):
... your sister? Okay. Yeah. So we were driving in the car and Jocelyn was telling me all about her life story and how she met you and all of that, how both of you met each other while working at Microsoft and some of the hard times that she had and all of that, it was a very deep talk because Chicago is not nearby. So it was like a good four or five hours drive if I remember correctly. The topic turned into money topic as well. And Jocelyn was saying about few different things and this and that. And the topic turned on me, and I remember canvasing to her that I find it really hard to spend money because I grew up in a very poor family. I mean, it's not probably the poorest family by Indian standards, but it is still poor family. And there were times when I was growing up, when we would not know exactly where our next meal would come or how we are going to pay for school fees.
Chandoo (00:44:17):
And there were points of time where I had to pull out of school because we couldn't afford school fees and all sorts of that. There was a lot of hardship. As a kid I never really thought of that as hardship, it was just the experience. So you're growing up, but there was a lot of uncertainty, and that makes you who you are. As I grew up and as I started making money, that insecurity that if I don't have money, then I will struggle. Not only me, but whoever is dependent on me will also struggle. So that made me an obsessive saver where I will try to save everything for tomorrow rather than be in the moment and enjoy what I have today. And even when I have big money and I have lots more to spend, I would be always like, "I don't need anything. I'm happy with what I have. I'll just put it off for tomorrow."
Chandoo (00:45:07):
So I was telling Jocelyn that I find it really hard to spend money with the amount of money that I make. I still try to just spend maybe 10 or 20% of what I earn and everything else is going towards the saving or investment or whatever. So you could say maybe I'm chasing that instead of chasing money, I'm trying to chase for some better tomorrow. I mean, I do realize that there is no better tomorrow, today's as good as it gets. So you need to take a moment, chill out and enjoy. But I think having that awareness is more important than just chasing. If you know why you are chasing something, then you will enjoy it.
Rob Collie (00:45:42):
Agreed. The other part of that story also resonated with me, which is you had a little time to recharge your batteries, pursue some other things. And then you come back around and you say, "Hey, this Power BI thing, that is a worthy thing to explore, that is a worthy development path for myself." It's almost like the opportunity to, like your favorite movie, you would love to be able to watch it again for the first time, experience it a new. Now, Power BI isn't like Excel, it's not the same thing, it's similar in some ways, but it's the closest you're ever going to get to being able to climb the Excel hill again, is to climb the Power BI hill. And in the end, you end up with this same sort of polished, interactive output, a symphony being played over some data. And for whatever reason, sickos like me and you, that speaks to us.
Chandoo (00:46:43):
Yeah, we enjoy it. And it is a very good challenging environment for you to learn and master and talk about it. It's a different experience altogether to do things in Power BI, because despite all it's visual, that's what the software is for. Unlike Excel, there is no area where you're building the calculations, everything is in this black box. Well, technically not a black box, you can still see the measures and all that, but a lot goes behind scenes than what is out there. So explaining that, and because I try to view everything from the explanation I write, because my job, I feel like is to do something and then also explain it. So every time I build something, I'm like, "Okay, how am I going to explain this?" Because I don't want people to be like, "Ta- da, this is showing up now." So it needs to be having that steps as well. So I try to think in that direction, and that is an interesting challenge in itself to take something like that and make it more reachable to the audience, I guess.
Rob Collie (00:47:44):
Just thinking about that, I think about you're going through that and doing that, you're creating videos, right?
Chandoo (00:47:49):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:50):
So I've got to thank you, you taught me Camtasia.
Chandoo (00:47:55):
Oh, well.
Rob Collie (00:47:55):
Yeah. And not just like, "Oh, here are where the buttons are," you taught a bit of the art of it.
Chandoo (00:48:02):
Oh, well, I really appreciate it. And I think, I feel like I have learned more Camtasia in the last year than all of my life together. This might surprise you lik, "What the heck are you talking? You are using Camtasia all the way back in 2013 as well." This is because about a year and half ago, I decided to switch from blog first to YouTube first. So now all my content is primarily produced for YouTube. And if needed, I will put a blog article, but sometimes I'll just link to an older article because there is a lot of content already. And I feel like there is no extra value in writing another article just for the sake of maintaining a YouTube video. So primarily all the content that I'm creating is for YouTube. And the YouTube presents a different challenge. If I'm creating a course, people are hooked on it, they paid for it, they logged in, they're setting time to learn, so they will watch me go through all the steps for 15 minutes to understand.
Chandoo (00:48:57):
But on YouTube, it's a different game altogether. The audience have many other distractions. There is also the aspect of how much time they can set aside in their day. Many times people are not really deliberately sitting down, "Okay, I'm going to have a YouTube sesh now." Instead they're doing something, and then suddenly they'll go onto YouTube to see quickly how to do certain things, or maybe they're having their tea break or lunch and they just want to watch a video. So that time span is very limited, and we want to address something valuable, provide good content and share something fun with them. So the videos need to be shorter, but they still need to be just as useful, fun and engaging. So I'm learning more on Camtasia in the last one year, like how do you combine various things, how do you add more effects, how do you present your story, how do you view this together. But yeah, it's good.
Rob Collie (00:49:52):
Tom's not here today, but one of his pet peeves is the cliche you hear over and over again, "There's more data created in the last year than in the entire human history before that." Well, here's another example of that, "Chandoo has learned more about Camtasia in the last year than he has in all of human history before." And when you said that you've learned more in the last year about Camtasia, my jaw did in fact drop. I'm like, "Oh my God, I need to come see this." Basically, everything I know about video editing in Camtasia, I learned from you, and in a very short period of time, so I need another bootcamp.
Chandoo (00:50:29):
You might have taken those and you might have gone really well past that point. Obviously that's really what happens with technology tools, the software evolves, we use it day in, day out. Then we realize, "Oh, we could do this. We could do that". Yeah, maybe watch some of my YouTube videos and let me know how that is, if you enjoy not just the video, but also the editing.
Rob Collie (00:50:51):
When you're watching something that's well done, you don't really notice.
Chandoo (00:50:55):
Yeah, obviously that's the whole point, right?
Rob Collie (00:50:58):
Right, the techniques. But then it was different essentially sitting at the editing console with you and you going, "Okay, so here I would probably do something like this." And then I'm like, "Oh, I would have never thought to do that. That's that's awesome." Certain pieces of software, certain tool sets are ones that I tend to evolve my skills over time on my own. I'm not really making videos these days. Maybe I'll be evolving otherwise. I would say that my Camtasia skills are basically frozen in 2013 where you taught me.
Chandoo (00:51:30):
Well, that's a nice compliment. And yeah, I think if you're not making videos, there's almost no value in learning the skills, because it just keeps changing and they have newer version now coming up every year. So sometimes you learn something, and the next year, boom, there's another way of doing it. And then we're like, "Why did they even bother learning this in the first place?"
Rob Collie (00:51:53):
The people at our company that play in our fantasy football league, and who've been subjected to my fantasy football gloating videos, they owe the production quality of those to you. I can't credit you for the singing quality, the vocals in those videos are terrible. And there's nothing you could do, even Chandoo couldn't correct my singing. And no, those videos are not available for public consumption. We are not going to-
Chandoo (00:52:19):
Maybe you should probably-
Rob Collie (00:52:19):
... unlisted for a reason
Chandoo (00:52:20):
... do that as the next episode of Raw Data, we're all singing.
Rob Collie (00:52:25):
On the previous episode, we talked about rewriting an AC/DC song, Dirty Reads Done Dirt Cheap. AC/DC really lends itself to alternate vocals. It wouldn't be the first time I've rewritten an AC/DC song, but then someone's got to get on the mic, things get ugly. Well, I'm one of those artists, when I write the alternate lyrics, I can't let someone else sing it for me. I've got to go do it myself, and again, it's sad. It's kind of neat. I mean, on one hand you could say that you were early to the internet. I'm going to use the word celebrity because I don't think really, any other word is better, and celebrity is not the perfect word, but one of the early adopters, one of the first movers in that space. Of course at the same time, that's years later than Bill Jelen.
Chandoo (00:53:13):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:14):
Which is crazy, right? I mean, it's like...
Chandoo (00:53:17):
I mean, imagine how much vision or... I don't want to say random and [inaudible 00:53:23] all his effort. It's completely his vision to have that started and even have a publishing company and all of that empire built.
Rob Collie (00:53:32):
Amazing, yeah. And as you say, he's been on the show and he has, absolutely it was not deliberate, it was still not a called shot.
Chandoo (00:53:42):
Yeah, but even if it's not deliberate, I think the biggest quality with some of these people like Bill, they have is, they listen, they see what's happening, they get the feedback, they tap into their emotions, they take a deliberate action from time to time. He could have started MrExcel forum and left it there, but he realized, "Okay, people are getting help from this. I need to...
Chandoo (00:54:03):
And left it there. But he realized, okay, people are getting help from this, I need to work on this, improve it better for them and people are buying these over priced Excel books that are sometimes way too detailed or way too complicated. I need to change the market. So, those are deliberate actions. You couldn't say one day he woke up and suddenly found a printing press in his house or anything.
Rob Collie (00:54:21):
Yeah. Agreed. So, what has it been like, having been early to the Excel internet celebrity phenomenon, but then joining the Power BI game... Not late, but very much in progress. Just like me, when I was first blogging about Power Pivot, I basically didn't have competition. I was the only weirdo obsessed with this stuff and writing about it like violently almost. I couldn't help myself. Whereas if I started that today, I would be joining a field that is very crowded by comparison. How has that been different? And I know that it's a different point in your life. So of course, it's going to be different anyway, but what have you noticed that's different about those two different journeys?
Chandoo (00:55:10):
I didn't really notice any difference, this is because the audience that I have been cultivating over time, they have also gone to a point in life where they are naturally migrating to Power BI and they already trust me, they know me, they have joined the courses or they have learned from me previously. So for them, it's easy to relate to the content that I produce because, it's like same teacher is teaching you 101 and then 102 class kind of thing. So, it's easy for them to relate. So, I had the ready audience either by luck or by that...
Rob Collie (00:55:47):
Cultivation.
Chandoo (00:55:48):
Yeah. So, it wasn't really like a fresh start. Like I would go and put, learnpowerbi.com as a website and put there. I'm already putting it on my website, so it's easy for people to connect the dots. But what I did notice is that audience, especially because Power BI is like an evolving platform and people have been using it way before even I started writing or we making videos about it, some of the people have already shifted away to those channels or those platforms to learn more. So, they are kind of tuning me out for Power BI because they're thinking Chandoo will teach us Excel, these other people will teach me about Power BI. So, the engagement or the feedback that I would get on Power BI related stuff is significantly lower than the Excel stuff that I would produce. So, I could clearly see that happening both on the YouTube channel as well as on my website. This is the reason why I got into self-doubt at some point thinking, should I even bother making a course about it, because it's a big investment of time on my side.
Chandoo (00:56:55):
And if I'm not benefiting a lot of people, then it would be just a futile exercise of me recording videos, producing everything, marketing it, and just simply annoying people if they're not ready to buy or whatever. But then when I launched the course, to my surprise, people were willing to pay and join. And that was the good, positive feedback for me. So, I went and I did that a few more times. So, it is good experience for me. All in all, I'd say it's a very positive experience. Last month on my YouTube channel, what I've been doing is, last Friday of every month, I do a live stream. So, Power BI is one of the most requested topics for live stream and the live stream that I did on Power BI, which was in June, was a massive success. Like we had quite a few people show up and go through the thing. And even on replay... This is a live stream, right? We are talking. There is lots of valuable content, but there is also a lot of content. I'm not going to call it.
Rob Collie (00:57:52):
There's valuable content and then there's content.
Chandoo (00:57:55):
So, there's a lot of stuff where I would just randomly read comments and flash them on the screen to say what people are asking or muse about things and all of that. And even on replays, people are watching all of that. So, this is good indicator that now there is more. And every time I ask a question on my community like, "What do you want to see next?" Power BI was the highest asked item. So, there's more people asking for that and I believe this is simply because people explain, they like my style, define me to be their teacher. So, they want me to teach it. And I think that is a good indicator for me. I will be creating more Power BI focused videos in the rest of this year and get more into Power BI. Not to say I'll ditch Excel. I'll keep using Excel because, Excel has continued to be the big platform that is used by millions of people all over the world. And I would love to be of help to them.
Rob Collie (00:58:49):
I think Excel is also experiencing a sort of Renaissance.
Chandoo (00:58:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:54):
The re-imagining what all it is that can happen in Excel. Some of the fundamentals of Excel are not being changed. They're being expanded in ways that we really haven't seen, maybe ever. There's a lot of fresh opportunity, a lot of fresh topics to talk about in Excel. A lot of things to dive into.
Chandoo (00:59:14):
Exactly. Especially the way they are expanding the formal language into more dynamic world and probably the terrible name, but the Lambda functions and all of that.
Rob Collie (00:59:27):
On the podcast with Brian Jones of Excel, I told him multiple times, "You're going to rename this at some point. You're going to rename it."
Chandoo (00:59:38):
The moment you see Lambda, you'll be like, "This is like another bot text." Nobody's going to even type that into Excel. Like, "What is Lambda?"
Rob Collie (00:59:49):
Yeah. I told him my favorite thing about the Lambda functions is that you hear the name and you immediately know what they do.
Chandoo (00:59:56):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:58):
So, are you getting into Lambda functions?
Chandoo (01:00:00):
I don't want to use the beta version. This is just by choice. I don't have access to Lambda function yet. I'm itching to play. I could just enable it with a click. I know that, but I don't want to make them. Simply because I don't want to ruin my Excel by changing the user experience from time to time. And I don't have to compete with them. I couldn't be really bothered to do that. But I know what they're capable of. I watch other people do it on YouTube and I did help play with them on my personal laptop the other day. It is a very good addition. I feel like this is not to again, go and say negative things about the amazing work this Excel team is doing. There is a lot of energy put into the more abstract way of doing things. I would say Lambda and Map and Reduce are at a very high level.
Chandoo (01:00:46):
And even I have done a lot of programming and I believe you may have already done some programming too. Even for us, it would be a hard concept to understand such a very generic version of things. And then actually capitalize on that raw power that you are getting now. But what would really help end users is, at least the way I hear when I talk to people or trying them is, some of the more things that should be done readily. Just to give one simple example, the other day I was training some people in Australia and they were asking, "How do I remove the spaces within the text?" So you have two words, but there's some extra spaces in the middle. And then I said, "Oh, you could use trim." And then they're like, "Trim? What is that?" Because when you hear the word trim, unless you have a very good background in the language or the history of computers, you wouldn't really guess that-
Rob Collie (01:01:39):
Right.
Chandoo (01:01:39):
... this is the one that removes spaces. And then she immediately said, "Why doesn't it say remove spaces?"
Rob Collie (01:01:46):
Yeah.
Chandoo (01:01:46):
This is the usability that I'm talking about. We could add more synonym functions or if you go on internet and search, one of the common things that people ask with VLOOKUP is, "How do I VLOOKUP the second value or how do I get to everything with VLOOKUP?" And Excel still doesn't have a function. And they say, "Oh, you can use filter", or you can use this or that, but why not take the VLOOKUP and make, when now there is XLOOKUP also, but they had the opportunity to take the XLOOKUP and also make it more like XLOOKUP filter. So, I feel like some of that energy also needs to go into these mainstream things. Might sound like ranting here. But...
Rob Collie (01:02:26):
No. This is important. I share these beliefs. I think you're a bit more sophisticated in your beliefs all along these lines, where I'm a bit more intuitive, emotional about them. You can refine them to very specific points very quickly and effortlessly. I'm going to ask you a wild question out of the blue. If Microsoft came to you one day and offered you a job, let's ignore the money for a moment. How much they were paying you, whatever and you didn't have to move. Would you accept job on the Microsoft product teams?
Chandoo (01:02:58):
I might accept. In fact, this is not something that I told many people, but a while ago I did actually put my hand up for a job, because I saw one in the MVP group, we get some emails from product managers. The email content was, they're looking for a person who is at the intersection of Excel, Power BI and the data visualization. I said, "Yeah. I'm not really looking for a job or anything. I don't really have the energy to do a full-time job. But if you are happy to take somebody remote and if you're willing to take someone part-time for a couple of days a week, I might be willing to do this, because I believe I can contribute in this space." But I think they were actually looking for a specific role within a specific city in US. So, it didn't happen.
Chandoo (01:03:45):
I also questioned like, it's easy for an outsider to make noise and complain and bitch about things. But when you are there, you will then suddenly come across these 75 constraints on every little thing that I want to do and there's a lot of internal drama and politics and whatnot goes on in these organizations, right? So, there might be genuinely people trying hard, but get just pushed aside, because there're other priorities or paying customers are asking you to do this or that. So, I wouldn't really know for sure.
Rob Collie (01:04:16):
Well, I do. I've had that job and you are correct that very often, some of the things that seem very frustrating on the outside. Why the hell? But on the inside, there's a really good reason.
Chandoo (01:04:31):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:04:31):
It wouldn't even help the world to hear it really. It's too mundane, it's really boring. So, you're never going to hear that reason on the outside. But the thing is, it's also that clarity is very hard to come by. When you're in that job, almost by definition, this isn't always true. They've been hiring people over time that came from the user ranks, the customer, that our number of former intense customers, who do now work for them and the clarity that someone like you would bring, would be absolutely worth it in a big way and incredibly valuable. Even with your very mature caveat, that some things are a lot harder than they look. I agree. There's always particular logistics about every particular position or whatever. Just take this at face value, you would definitely be an asset to either of those teams. Not that you need it. I'm not saying, "Oh, Chandoo, you're looking for you're... You're wandering, you're lost. Let me help you find yourself." No. Not at all. You might decide after a taste of that. You'd be like, "Nah."
Chandoo (01:05:43):
If I didn't know any better, I would say this podcast is like an interview, like a software...
Rob Collie (01:05:48):
Yeah. I'm going to open the door behind me here. And they're going to see the whole team is there.
Chandoo (01:05:53):
Welcome to Microsoft.
Rob Collie (01:05:55):
They don't pay me anymore, Chandoo. Why would I do their work?
Chandoo (01:06:00):
Oh wow.
Rob Collie (01:06:01):
So, that's cool that you're reasonably significant subset of your Excel audience, has joined you and it's called Power BI play date?
Chandoo (01:06:13):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:06:13):
That is such a cool name. Someone could try to now imitate that, they come up with a class and call it Power BI playroom. And it just wouldn't be the same. You mentioned this earlier, but the fateful summer of 2013, you and your entire family, all four of you came over from India and moved in, in Cleveland. I know a couple of miles from where we lived. We were in Cleveland until 2015. So, that was when we were there and we got to hang out for... Not an entire summer.
Chandoo (01:06:48):
Pretty much everyday.
Rob Collie (01:06:48):
Pretty much every day, up until the point where I destroyed my knee.
Chandoo (01:06:52):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:06:55):
We had just taught a class together. You and I in Columbus, Ohio. I think I was teaching on my birthday and teaching on Jocelyn's birthday, June 22nd. And she wanted to go to the trampoline park in Columbus, after we were done teaching. I also met one of the students at that class, that joint class that we did together, was Mike Miskol of command and his right-hand man at the time, Donovan. Command ended up being one of the ground floor clients that launched our company. We ended up doing a lot of consulting work for them over the years. And, we've talked about Mike on the blog multiple times. Sadly, he was the wolf. He passed away a few years ago, but that was a heck of a summer. A lot of things happened that summer. We didn't make it back from that class in Columbus in one piece.
Rob Collie (01:07:50):
I remember we all went to the drive-in movies outside of Cleveland one time, after I'd hurt myself.
Chandoo (01:07:57):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:07:57):
And I was sitting in the back seat of the Jeep with my leg out, across the bench. And I'm watching this drive-in movie through the crack between the headrest and the window. It was a Despicable Me two or something like that we watched.
Chandoo (01:08:14):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:08:15):
Your kids were little.
Chandoo (01:08:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:08:17):
I guess mine were too. Your children, I remember describing them as luminous. They just glowed. It was like a light meter up to them and like, "Oh! They're emitting light." Such cool young people. We missed y'all when you left.
Chandoo (01:08:38):
Yeah. If I look back and think about some of the best experiences in my life, that will be definitely one of them, because there was so much fun that we had and it was, because I'm not really working and Joey's also not working. We are working in our business, but we are not really physically going somewhere. So, we had all the freedom and the weather was really good. And, you guys were just around the corner. So, if we need anything or we felt lost, we could always call you or just walk to your house and you'd be there to help us. And it was such a really fun time. And when you're having things like that, we were enjoying, I always thought, we would repeat that a couple of years down the line. We were talking about these kinds of things.
Chandoo (01:09:23):
I remember leaving a small box of some utensils and stuff like that in your basement when we left, because we were thinking we'll come back another time in a couple of years and we will repeat it.
Rob Collie (01:09:33):
Yeah.
Chandoo (01:09:33):
But, life has different plans every time. We went back from that and things kept moving in different directions. You started your business and I had this vision that we should probably move and live in other country. So, we started looking for that and we moved to New Zealand. And even when we were in New Zealand, we would have some video calls where you'd say, "We will come and visit you for a holiday or something." And look now where we are. We can't even leave our countries if we want to.
Rob Collie (01:10:01):
I know. They'd let me leave, but your country wouldn't let me in.
Chandoo (01:10:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Rob Collie (01:10:07):
I think you chose well. See, there you go. That foresight again. You're like, "Okay. There's going to be a pandemic in a few years. And New Zealand really seems to have their act together. And the US looks... I don't think so. You didn't see that coming, but good choice. Obviously, I was a little bummed when you didn't move to the US but now, I can't help but look at it and go, "Oh, good move."
Chandoo (01:10:38):
Yeah. Again, nothing was planned. We just were thinking we would go to either Australia or New Zealand and we just kind of flipped a coin and then it was New Zealand. So, that's where we applied and we got in and we're happy we are here. But again, it was not deliberate at all.
Rob Collie (01:10:55):
The future holds many possibilities. We need to come visit. You live in one of the coolest places. They chose to film Lord of the Rings there. That's how cool.
Chandoo (01:11:07):
It's an amazing place and there is so much natural beauty and people are just nice.
Rob Collie (01:11:12):
Do you mind telling the story of the now absolutely iconic chandoo.org avatar? Can you tell me how that came to pass? Because when you got off the airplane in Cleveland to come visit.
Chandoo (01:11:30):
It's the other way.
Rob Collie (01:11:30):
Really funny. You didn't look like that.
Chandoo (01:11:34):
This is like... Probably there were many crazy accidents, all this journey, but this has got to be one of the craziest accidents because, I had my website chandoo.org way before I got into Excel, the original website is called... Not that it matters anymore, but it's called Modus Indoramus and it's nothing to do with anything that I'm doing nowadays. But, I thought in those days, that's a good name. So, I went with that and it used to be hosted on Blog spot. And later on, when I finished my management degree and I started working, I needed to rename that to reflect my new stage of life. So, I went with the name, Pointy Head Dilbert. This is simply because, I like Dilbert cartoon and I find that Dilbert is this technical guy. And the point, he had boss is this, or lack of better word, a dumb ass who is like a manager.
Chandoo (01:12:26):
And I find myself in the junction of these two. I got my technical degree and now I'm a management degree holder. So I thought, "Oh. Let's fuse these two things together." And I come up with this brilliant name... Well, it's not brilliant, but I thought it is brilliant. Pointy Head Dilbert. And there was a point where the logo of the blog was actually Dilbert with the point he had boss's ears on his head.
Rob Collie (01:12:48):
Okay.
Chandoo (01:12:48):
So, I kind of photoshopped it. That was the logo. Fast forward to 2008 and we moved to US for work Joey and I and around that time, I was fascinated with MacBooks and all. I got my first computer, which is a MacBook and the MacBook got delivered home and it had this photo booth app, using which you could kind of take a selfie, but it was cute, your facial features. So, one day morning I got up and then I was doing my usual routine of checking mail and stuff like that and I opened the photo booth and I took some selfies and one of that was this iconic hair picture. So, it's really just my selfie in the Mac. And then later on during the day or the next day, I thought, "You know what? I could use this because it has pointy hair", because the hair is kind of really stretched out. And I opened Photoshop and I cropped that image and polished it a bit, a change of the saturation and whatnot, and replaced that on my blog.
Chandoo (01:13:49):
And people were like, "Oh wow. This looks amazing. We love it." Yeah. Later on, I renamed the whole thing as chandu.org instead of Pointy Head Dilbert. But, that is how it came up. The sad thing is, I don't have the original picture anymore. The MacBook died. So, I have no access to the original picture, not even higher version of it. There is nothing there. The only thing that is on my website is the only one that I have. And I thought at some point maybe I could get someone to do a vector drawing of this, but I never got into any sort of merchandising or anything like that. So, there was never really a need for a higher resolution version of this. I'm not printing coffee mugs or anything. But, I am really glad that I had a picture like that and I could use it. I am also glad that I still have some hair on my head after all these years.
Rob Collie (01:14:39):
Your hair was much shorter, that summer we spent together. I can see now with your current hair, how that picture might've happened. Did you also distort the hair a little bit?
Chandoo (01:14:50):
No. It's the photo booth app.
Rob Collie (01:14:52):
Your hair was actually that tall, that morning?
Chandoo (01:14:54):
It was tall, but what the photo booth does is I think if you have an iPad or iPhone, you can actually test it. It will basically take a central point. I think the point was somewhere here on my head and it'll stretch every pixel out.
Rob Collie (01:15:07):
I see.
Chandoo (01:15:08):
So, that's how the hair kind of became too wild. But I did have fairly long hair at that point and I think because I just got up, it was all over the place.
Rob Collie (01:15:17):
Well, what a happy accident. Because again, so iconic. I didn't know you as Chandoo, for a long time. All I knew was there was this guy on Twitter, R1C1, who simultaneously had this really quirky sense of humor and at the same time, like this mastery feel. And it was very much enhanced by that icon, by that logo. I would see that icon and I go, this is someone who lives at the top of some pyramid. You need to climb in order to have an audience with him. It's amazing how much power that had, when I didn't even know that you were Chandoo. You were just R1C1, this bad-ass, who was also really funny. It was only eventually, one day I clicked through him like, "Oh." Yeah, I expected your website to be like pyramid living bad-ass dot com. Chandoo.org was a much friendlier name. Again, you were very friendly on Twitter. It's just that I expected some sort of Kung Fu master.
Chandoo (01:16:29):
That was also not intentional. I think I'm just being...
Rob Collie (01:16:32):
You're just being funny. Right?
Chandoo (01:16:33):
Yeah. Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:16:34):
I think it's great. So, going back to Power BI for a moment, what are some of the things about power BI that you have found surprisingly delightful? What are some of the things that you've just really gone, "Wow. That is a cool thing that we can do in that environment that we couldn't do in Excel."
Chandoo (01:16:54):
This is no longer true, but what I found Power BI to be amazing in is, it has this massive power query layer in the front, that lets you take anything, manipulate it in any which way you want and get the clean cut of data for your analysis. So, that's one thing that I found to be a true game changer. Because, many times when we want to analyze data, when we want to present things, we have this like an 800 meter hurdle to cross, where our data is really shit. The Power Query was like a true game changer. I mean, in a way it was coexisting in both Excel and Power BI worlds, but many times within Excel, you already begin with the data that is pasted into the spreadsheet. So, you're not really deliberately trying to clean it up more. It kind of comes in a semi clean format, whereas Power BI, because there is no holding cell where the data can be pasted.
Chandoo (01:17:52):
You can kind of technically copy paste, but there's no place where the data is. It has to come from outside, because of the nature of platform. Having Power Query was like one of the big key things. And it is a mental model shift also. We don't really begin in that space. Now, we are beginning in that space where I could potentially get anything and manage it and manipulate it. And the second thing is obviously the power pivot engine, which is really dynamic and amazingly powerful. You could write a simple measure that is just doing a sum or count or whatever, but then the way you present, it really changes the meaning of it and completely presents a different insight, that you would have spent hours and days and sometimes weeks or just might even give up to try to replicate in Excel.
Chandoo (01:18:40):
But those two are no longer true because of the coexistence of the same ideas in Excel world, but they feel more natural within Power BI. Whereas in Excel, if you can't do something with Power Pivot, you always would be like, "Okay. I'll get as far as I need. And then I'll use the cell structure and the relative references and whatnot to calculate the rest. Whereas power BI doesn't offer that. Everything has to be done with these two preset engines. So, you will be forced to go in and achieve more with them. And the more you get it right at those two stages, everything else becomes like a piece of cake really when it comes to visualizing and analyzing, There are other aspects too, and we kind of grown a customer trait now. So we don't no longer find that amazing to be honest, but the first time you see it, you will always be like, wow, this is good.
Chandoo (01:19:30):
That kind of cross filtering and interaction is a game changer. The ability to have tool tips that are rich and informative is a good thing. That idea of using bookmarks to change the state or the display of the visual, so that you don't have to put multiple things and still get what you want. Or even some of the simple things like having a separate mobile view, where I can show different visuals or structure them differently, depending on what the audience is, looking at it from. All of those are some of those fundamental things that really, for me, at least helped that platform elevate to a different level from what is previously possible in Excel. There's many other things like even some of the simplest things like the ability to show pictures from a URL, it is nearly impossible to do that in Excel. Whereas in Power BI just happens with the simple switch of the setting. And now suddenly you have something that is so much more beautiful than a simple table.
Rob Collie (01:20:31):
Yeah. I mean that composability of Excel, the network effect of all of its features, sort of interacting in the grid, leads to an environment in which, like you mentioned in the very beginning with that first blog post, you felt like you'd either invented or discovered something, that in your own silo, felt like the first light bulb, like first time anyone ever discovered fire. I know how that feels for sure. Big time. You're wiser now, you know that when you discover or invent some-
Rob Collie (01:21:03):
You're wiser now. You know that when you discover or invent something, you're probably not the first. As I am also now wiser. But there's still that moment where for yourself, you invented something using things that were not necessarily ... no one ever anticipated that particular usage.
Rob Collie (01:21:18):
So let me give you an example from my life in Power BI, is I quote-unquote, Invented an American football passing chart that shows where the quarterback likes to throw the ball and where he's successful at it and all that kind of stuff, right? It's just a Power BI 2D scatterplot.
Chandoo (01:21:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:21:39):
With a football field image behind it.
Chandoo (01:21:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:21:42):
That's it. It's just the background image. Now, but then I had to go to your blog accidentally one time and read about jittering.
Chandoo (01:21:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:21:51):
The concept of jittering. And I remember you had a really great article on jittering in Excel.
Chandoo (01:21:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:21:55):
And I was like, oh, I need that in my passing chart because all my dots are going to be on top of each other.
Chandoo (01:22:00):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:22:01):
And then I did a really, really, really complicated, it was really labor intensive, to achieve jittering in my chart, took a combination of M and DAX that I pity the fool that has to go back and understand what I did. I wrote a long article about it. But if you just stumbled upon my workbook and tried to figure out how I did it, oh God. And so here I am, I have invented a pass chart. You know, we forget about it. We set it aside. And then years later, a football coach from Texas, a high school in Texas, calls us up and says, "Hey, do you know that that football thing you invented is probably the best football passing chart that's available on the internet?"
Rob Collie (01:22:37):
I'm like, "No". And so we went and did this thing called Cover Hawk. If you go to coverhawk.app, it's very, very, very much like an MVP exploratory thing where we're trying to see if there's some traction to this. Maybe there's a product worth developing. We even went to a conference two weeks ago in Texas. Conference of, nothing but football coaches, nothing but high school football coaches and we're just standing there like the data nerds. Two booths down from us is a bunch of tackling dummies. They're trying to sell tackling dummies and helmets and things like that and we're there as the data nerds with Cover Hawk.
Rob Collie (01:23:15):
So have you had any of those that you're comfortable sharing? Have you invented anything?
Chandoo (01:23:20):
I don't want to call, there've been mentions, because I feel like, like you said, we're all wiser now.
Rob Collie (01:23:28):
Right. Invented in air quotes.
Chandoo (01:23:31):
Yes. So there are, you could call them as hacks because the way Power BI is evolving, certain things are not possible at certain points of time. They may not be true anymore. Like now, you could do it. But at that point in time, that feature is not available or it's not as refined.
Chandoo (01:23:47):
If people are finding it useful, you might invent something fun, but if nobody has the use for it, then it's just a novelty, right? Like the way you did, the football coach said it is a useful thing. Based on the YouTube videos that I have on Power BI and the comments or the views that I get, one video that I have is a budget versus actual with variance information as a combined graph. So the idea is in the world of finance, we do a lot of comparisons with what's my actual, what's my budget for a bunch of projects or products or whatever.
Chandoo (01:24:19):
And many times you may also want to, okay, 100 is my budget, 120 is my actual, so we got 20 variance or 20% variance. And I want to see the variance information right there, but because Power BI yet doesn't have any customizable data labels, so you get both 100 and 120, but you can't really get 20 or 20% in there. And even if you could get it somehow, it's not visually represented so it's hard for people to see that and instantly make a mental picture of what that 20 is, which direction it is going.
Chandoo (01:24:52):
So I made a graph where it's nothing but a column or a bar chart and another column or bar chart. And the sort order is also maintained on both depending on what interactions are happening and whatnot as a visual and I made a YouTube video about it. And from time to time, people tell me that, "Oh, this is a good one we've been looking." Like you know, there are custom visuals that can do this for you. But sometimes custom visuals, people try to shy away from them, just like Excel add ins in a way. Maybe because they're not compatible or there's maybe security issues or whatever.
Chandoo (01:25:25):
Having a native visual is useful. That's one thing. And there are other fun projects I do to just demo certain things. But I think this is one. There is another one that I had an article and I think even a YouTube video where we are using the what-if parameter option of Power BI to user input and then build a calculator that will do some projections on what if you save $500 a month that, I don't know, some sort of investment that will give you 6%, how much money it would create in future, right? So some sort of projections. And again, at that point, Power BI didn't have the functions like FV or future value calculation things. So you had to do it in an arithmetic way using the formulas. But now it is, I believe they have added some more finance functions now.
Rob Collie (01:26:15):
I remember that with PRODUCTX.
Chandoo (01:26:17):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:26:17):
They didn't have the PRODUCTX function. And so Amir told me, "Oh no, no problem. You just convert it to exponents". Like you do something with the E-function or something, right.
Chandoo (01:26:29):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:26:30):
And then you do a sum-x of that. And then you raise that answer to the power and now you're, and I'm like, "Oh God". And I actually did a few things like that. And then PRODUCTX came along and I'm like, "Oh, thank goodness". Yeah. I mean, because it's exactly that scenario, right? The future projection scenario. If your growth rate is the same every year, then you can use the power function, right? But as soon as there's variables happening at each year, it's all over, you need other functions. So you had to re-implement the FV function before it existed.
Chandoo (01:27:04):
Yeah. So there are some of those things that I had fun. And again, what I find tricky within the Power BI space especially is because the platform is shaky and it is always moving, the goal posts are changing. What you find it useful in a hack kind of a thing may not be relevant tomorrow or 10 months down the line. But yeah, certain ideas, and I think because I don't view them as innovations, but those are good things, good practice in a way I think, just try and showing people how to do and things will eventually ... that will be normalized and then the next things will happen.
Rob Collie (01:27:40):
Yeah. Well, I find those moments of hack, or invent, or work around, or whatever you want to call them where you create something that didn't quite seem possible when you got started, it was like on the fringe of possible. Those are some of the most satisfying achievements. Those feel really good. I think in a way it's like, that's almost what it's all about is that act of creation.
Chandoo (01:28:04):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:28:04):
Even if you stayed a hundred percent within the known and traditional bounds of the product and you haven't invented some new technique, by the time you're done with a good report, a good dashboard, whatever noun you want to use and then the customer, in our case, the client, right? That's a piece of software they're going to now go use to revolutionize their business. You still get that feeling of creation.
Chandoo (01:28:31):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:28:31):
And I think it's one of those addictions with no downside, it's a positive addiction.
Chandoo (01:28:38):
Yeah totally. And I feel like in that sense, the amount of satisfaction I derive within the Power BI space, more of it comes from Power Query and Power Pivot side of things, because that's where you are really tinkering with the language that is available to you. Whereas, the visual space is still hacky. You have all these bookmarks and selection pane and toll tips and stuff like that. That'll let you go in and make it to the next level. But because there is so much click action happening, you feel like the sequence of clicks is the real source there. Whereas in Power Query or another place, what you are describing, can we replicate it with a different situation, different data and different scenario, more easily.
Chandoo (01:29:18):
I think another example that people find useful, the ones that are blogged are using Power Query to look up the whole thing. But it's basically like a word search, but more, not simple words, but keyword search. So you got your X values in a column, and then you have your key phrases that you want to go and see in that and either remove them or delimit them based on any of those. So then there is no direct function. Maybe there is now, but when I was doing it, there was no direct function so I had to use the accumulate function or the list thing, which is basically like, it'll go through and it'll run some. It's a crazy concoction, but it works.
Rob Collie (01:29:59):
You want to see crazy concoctions, go look at my jittering, jittering techniques. I'm not very sophisticated. It's always like a street fight with me with this stuff. You know, it's like throwing dirt.
Chandoo (01:30:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:30:11):
It's not an Olympic fencing tournament with me. I find that very interesting that the two engines under the hood are the ones that have spoken to you the most. Coming in, I know that you can formula. You're R1C1 on Twitter. Like that's a reputation to live up to. But again, just sort of always thinking about you as the so incredibly differentiated on the visuals layer and Excel, I would have expected you to be just sort of fully enamored with the toolkit that they've given us, despite the fact that it's clicky.
Chandoo (01:30:47):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:30:47):
It's clicky to set it up. It's not clicky for the end user. It is very clicky for the developer.
Chandoo (01:30:53):
Yeah. I do create a lot of visuals in Power BI and I share them on the course as well as on my blog and YouTube. So there is quite a few visuals that I'm very proud of them and people do tell me that this is really good and well-composed. It's just that I find that you can't really get there unless you have a very good data and calc engine behind. So 70% of the time really goes there, right? The other 30% is really choosing the visual, putting it and coloring it. That's pretty much it. That's why I mentioned those because without that, you're really not able to deliver the visual.
Rob Collie (01:31:29):
And once I heard you say it, that's where I am. It makes total sense to me. Yeah, the visuals are a very, very, very important last mile. They're only the representation of the metrics coming out of your data model. They can't be better than that.
Chandoo (01:31:46):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:31:47):
And oftentimes, when you want to achieve a particular visual effect, you actually need to go do something in the data model to power it. For example, the dashboard we use to track the podcast statistics. I index all of those, every podcast episode to day one, the time sequence, the time access across the bottom of the chart. It doesn't make sense for that to be the calendar because then I just get all of these curves coming off from different places off of the zero.
Chandoo (01:32:18):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:32:18):
I need them to all start in the same place. So I can say, "Hey, look, this one's doing better at day five of it's life then this other one was doing at day five of its life". And that's really interesting. So it's this really cool spray chart where everything's spraying out like a sprinkler. Well, I had to do DAX. I had to do DAX to shift everything and the chart looks the way it does because of the DAX. And that interplay is again, one of those just like incredibly satisfying and gratifying things to do.
Chandoo (01:32:46):
Yeah, I totally agree. And then you can't really get there without the measure, uplifting work. I remember doing this massive gender pay gap dashboard for one of the ministries here in New Zealand. And people look at that and they'll go, "Wow, this is amazing!" But then I know that it takes me literally 10 minutes to make the visuals, but the measures behind that, the ones that drive the calculations and then tell them what actions they need to take. And that's where a lot of hard work is, right? But writing those measures was amazingly satisfactory, like learning how to use some of the, especially, variables to break down complex calculations. And I remember the times when there were no variable, so it would be pretty much donkey work to get things done.
Rob Collie (01:33:34):
Yeah. Back in my day, we didn't even have the sort by column feature. Our slicers had to have zero one dash January in them.
Chandoo (01:33:45):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:33:45):
So that we could get good sort order. What do you think the next 10 years looks like for Chandoo?
Chandoo (01:33:53):
Well, that's a very interesting question. And I keep thinking about it more now than back in 2010, 13 or 2016, to be honest, because I'm also trying to visualize what's going to happen, how I can be helpful to others and how I can share my craft and how I can feel that passion going forward. Because now that I'm more aware of what could happen if I don't carefully nurture it. So one thing that I'm trying to do is I'm trying to find myself in a situation where there is enough challenge, but not too challenged that it feels like stress and then you will give up halfway thinking, "Oh, this is not worth my effort, I don't need it" kind of thing. So a positive challenge that is happening for the last year and half is that shift to video-based content production versus blog articles.
Chandoo (01:34:48):
Again, purely because there is that unknown factor of how do I make videos? How do I make them engaging? How do I make them just as fun and quirky as a blog? How do I make them useful? So that is something that I'm finding interesting and learning. And hopefully that is the path that I want to be on for the next few years. I don't really know, 10 years, a really long time to commit to anything. But next few years, this is where I want to be, make more videos, change, or help people through the video platform while simultaneously maintaining blog and providing some support material there from time to time. If there is no global pandemic or anything like that, personally, we might be doing a lot more travel in 10 years because kids would be what, 21, 22 by then they might be finishing with their uni or starting their work. So they'll probably be not with us at that time. And we will find the same place as you are like an empty-nester. And I would imagine if we don't have anyone within our house, then we may want to go to India or parts of Europe, or maybe even visit the US again and spend some more time with some of the friends and family that we lost connection all these years.
Chandoo (01:36:01):
That's more on a personal side, but yeah, at gender.org, I think it will live. I'll keep blabbering about one thing or another. It could be Excel, it could be Power BI, it could be some other new technology or whatever. I enjoy tech. I feel like I would enjoy it for the rest of my life and I enjoy talking about it. So that's what I would do. I may not launch courses or sell stuff that far down the line because there is an expectation when you are selling stuff that you also care for your customers and provide service and all of that. It is fun to get money and provide service, but not as fun as producing content, to be honest for me.
Rob Collie (01:36:38):
Yeah.
Chandoo (01:36:38):
You could outsource that and all that, but because I'm not trying to grow an empire here, I feel like it might be an unnecessary thing for me to take up that challenge. And there is also a thought that I keep toying with, which is to probably get into full-time teaching or something like that. Wherein I might go and try and get a PhD or start teaching at a university or something like that. I don't really know. I mean, from outside, it looks like a romantic thing, but then the moment I try to read up more about it. I'm like, "Ah, I couldn't be bothered".
Rob Collie (01:37:11):
Yeah, it's tricky. I'm just sort of imagining this world in which you became a full-time teacher and someone just accidentally lucks into you as their instructor and their whole life would be different afterwards. Not everyone is reachable, right? So a bunch of people would go through that class and be like, "Oh, that guy was weird", but that handful would just absolutely light up.
Chandoo (01:37:31):
But there are other things too. For example, these days I'm drawing a lot more inspiration because I'm trying to be on the video platform more. I'm drawing inspiration from other YouTubers who have been in the journey for quite a bit of their life. Some of the people that I enjoy watching content are, there's one person called VZ waiter. It started off as a blog, but it's basically everything about life. But because it has been around for as long as I have my website, 13, 14 years, you could see that evolution in where he's leading the trajectory, then there's Electro Boom and few other places.
Chandoo (01:38:07):
When I watch them, I'm thinking they are in the life stages that I have been, or they are going through the journey and they're still maintaining that creativity and that inspiration and that fun factor because I believe in the content place, you need to have ample amount of fun. Otherwise, it would just drain you out and you lose that spark. That's where I'm looking. And I'm trying to draw inspiration from those people and try to get those values into what I do every day.
Rob Collie (01:38:35):
Yeah. I was going to ask you if you tended to draw inspiration from other YouTubers, like within our space, or if you primarily looked sort of broader?
Chandoo (01:38:47):
I'm looking more broader, because our space is good, but also there is this unwanted or a needed thing of comparison and jealousy and other negative feelings that you'll get. So I watch our space to learn, that's for sure. I watch our space to understand what sort of content is resonating with audience and what sort of reactions they are getting, how certain things are done, just so that I can better my craft. But when it comes to getting inspiration or setting a goal post or whatever, I'm trying to look at it more from a holistic point of view. If I want to be a content creator like X, who that X is, and that person is funny, that person is engaging, that person is awesome, and that person is also a genuinely nice person. So that's the person that I'm looking for. And there are plenty of them around the world. So there's enough content to inspire you. And that will also change from time to time, right?
Chandoo (01:39:42):
There's one other thing that I thought I'll mention. So when I saw raw data in the podcast, I remember because I had a podcast back in the day and I slowly wound it down. So I no longer have episodes, but all the old episodes are still there. I think early last year I was talking to a friend that, maybe I should start another podcast or maybe a video cast or a blog or something like that. I wanted to call this as data dump simply because it's just me venting things out or not trying to be an angry, middle-aged man or whatever. It's just that was the name that I went with. I was kind of in two minds, whether to call it a podcast or maybe make it a 30 minute YouTube segment or a series of videos on my channel or whatever. But I never went with that idea because I have been through the podcast journey. I know that it is quite a bit of effort to put out podcasts every week or month or whatever time period you choose. And I didn't really want to commit myself to something that'll just become a block on my creativity.
Chandoo (01:40:46):
Already, I'm doing YouTube. I have a blog and I have courses so I felt like this is not something that I want to put on my plate right now. But when I saw Raw Data come out, I was like, "Oh, that's a good name as well". Like, you know her obviously doing this, but it is good that you are doing this and reaching out to people that have stories to tell and people need to hear certain things. And the podcast is a very powerful medium. I hear podcasts all the time when I go on a walk or when I'm driving and it's a good companion to have. And it's a very solid way to build the bond with your audience as well, because you're connected at an audio level in their ears. Many times people hear this in their headphones, right? So you're literally, they're just whispering in their ears.
Rob Collie (01:41:29):
Yeah. We even had recently, we hired a consultant at our company who heard of us through the podcast.
Chandoo (01:41:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:41:37):
That's a first. Yeah, podcasts are a lot of work, especially if you want to do a good job on them and you've got that high quality bar.
Chandoo (01:41:44):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:41:45):
And I do too. You need Luke. There's no way. In fact, you need more than a Luke. And there are many people now that have their hands in one way or another, to varying degrees, with every episode, in addition to just the host and the guest. For example, Luke, I know what Chandoo is, you get to make a choice. I'm going to give you a choose your own adventure here. We make a gif for every guest, for every episode. Now, your gif is going to be this. It's going to be you standing there from the waist up and a table with relatively normal hair, like what you have today. Okay. But sitting next to you as a Van Der Graaf Generator, like one of those steel ball things, right?
Chandoo (01:42:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:42:27):
And you're going to put your hand on it in the gif and your hair is going to stand up and look like the Chandoo icon. Okay.
Chandoo (01:42:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:42:34):
All right. Now, the question is, and this is an important choice. The Van Der Graaf Generator is going to have an icon on it. Do you want it to be the Excel icon or the Power BI icon?
Chandoo (01:42:48):
I feel like you should say Power BI because it has got the power.
Rob Collie (01:42:51):
Okay. All right. So it's going to be the Power BI icon. It's going to be the best of all gifs.
Chandoo (01:43:04):
Those gifs were like an amazing thing as well. They add so much more quirkiness to the podcast, especially when you put them out on Twitter. Like, oh, it was fun. I liked the one with the [inaudible 01:43:18] on his monkey dancing stuff.
Rob Collie (01:43:25):
I mean, you can imagine, you have this idea, and this is something I learned again, writing a book. And I learned it again when I was making the videos, you have this idea, this idea hits you about what would be perfect and then you can't un-see the idea. You can't forget the idea, but now you have to go execute the idea. And it ends up being a lot of work. A gif a week turns out to be a reasonably intense pace because the idea isn't even always clear to us. What are we going to do? What are we going to do with this one? With you, thanks to the signature icon. We know what we're going to do.
Rob Collie (01:44:03):
So hey, sincerely, a real pleasure to get to talk with you for such a long time and to see you. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and to do the show with us. So now we've done the bio, right? We've done the history of Chandoo, right? That doesn't mean you can't come back. This podcast is in part, just a professional excuse to talk to cool people.
Rob Collie (01:44:29):
Chandoo thank you for coming and seriously, just thanks for being you. I've learned so much from you directly and indirectly over the years, be a good borg. Absorb things from other good people. I've definitely borged some good Chandoo content.
Chandoo (01:44:45):
Thank you so much for having me and I really appreciate what you're doing here with the podcast. And it is a really positive and fun way to get the message out to people and then tell good stories and connect to your audience. I wish you great success with the podcast.
Rob Collie (01:45:01):
The podcast is only as good as the guests. Powered by guests.
Announcer (01:45:05):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
We dive into the deep end of the Data Lake on this episode with our guest, Senior Staff Developer Advocate at Databricks, Denny Lee. Denny knows so much about Delta Lake, Apache Spark, Data Lakes, Data Warehouses, and all of the tech that is involved. At one point Rob’s mind gets so blown by something that Denny talks about, his jaw may still be on the floor!
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Denny Lee. Absolutely one of the most friendly, outgoing, and happiest people that you'll ever hear on this show, that you'll ever hear anywhere, for that matter. And it's a little bit different. This episode, we spend a lot of time focused on technology, which we very often don't do. But the reason why we did is because Denny represents an amazing opportunity for us to explore what's happening like in this parallel universe of data. Most of us are up to our eyeballs in the Microsoft data platform and not even the entire Microsoft data platform, but very specific portions of it like centered on Power BI, for instance.
Rob Collie (00:00:45):
In the meantime, there's this entire universe of technology running on Linux in the cloud, that if you watch the show Silicon Valley, these are the tools being used by those people on that show. And also by the way, in the real Silicon valley, and to know someone like Denny, who has walked in the same world as us, because he's fully entrenched in this other world, I couldn't resist the opportunity to have him translate a lot of the things from that world for the rest of us.
Rob Collie (00:01:16):
In the course of this conversation, there's an absolutely jaw dropping realization that hits me that I was completely unaware of. I couldn't believe, I still can't believe that there was an ongoing flaw, an ongoing weakness in Data Lake technology that's only recently being addressed. And by the time we were done recording this, it was clear to me that we need to do it again, because there are so many things left to explore in that same day. We could have at least one more episode like this. So we're definitely going to have him back. So buckle up for a journey into the world of Apache Spark and Hadoop and Data Lakes and Lake Houses and Delta Lakes. Jason and the Argonauts make an appearance. We talk about photon, but most importantly, we talk about why this would be ever relevant to the Power BI crowd. So let's define that world, Denny's world as it, and then let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:22):
This is The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rod Collins and your cohost, Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3Adaptive.com. Raw data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:45):
Welcome to the show. Denny Lee, I haven't spoken with you in, gosh, it's coming up probably on 10 years, right? Like it's getting close.
Denny Lee (00:02:55):
Yeah. It's been a long while. It's been a long time. You ran to the Midwest and I just wanted nothing to do with you.
Rob Collie (00:03:01):
That's right. I mean, that's the natural reaction from the Seattle tribes.
Denny Lee (00:03:05):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we're bad like that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:08):
It's like that scene in Goodfellas where the boss of [inaudible 00:03:11] says, and now I got to turn my back.
Denny Lee (00:03:13):
Exactly. Yeah. You went over the cascades. I'm done.
Rob Collie (00:03:17):
That's right. So, but you also seem to have left the other family, the Microsoft family.
Denny Lee (00:03:24):
That's very true. I did do that, didn't I. It was a long time ago.
Rob Collie (00:03:28):
This is like one outcast speaking with another.
Denny Lee (00:03:31):
That's true. That's true. We are outcasts. That's fair. But I mean, I don't think that had necessarily to do with leaving the big ship either though. I think we were just outcasts in general.
Rob Collie (00:03:38):
That was our role.
Denny Lee (00:03:39):
It was, yeah. It was all brand for us.
Rob Collie (00:03:43):
We're not going to spend too much time on history here, but well, we can, but there are a number of things that I do want to know about your origin story. You and I met basically over the internet, even though we were both Microsoft employees at the time-
Denny Lee (00:03:58):
And on the same campus.
Rob Collie (00:03:59):
... And you showed up on my radar when Project Gemini and Power Pivot was actually getting close to like beta and stuff. Right.
Denny Lee (00:04:07):
That's right. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:04:08):
And you just materialized. It was like, now it's time to talk about these things publicly. And there was Denny.
Denny Lee (00:04:15):
Yes. Yes. [inaudible 00:04:17] loud.
Rob Collie (00:04:17):
Well, look who you're talking to.
Denny Lee (00:04:21):
Fair enough. Fair enough. Mind you, this is a podcast that I don't think anybody can see anything by the way. You do know that, right?
Rob Collie (00:04:25):
Yeah, I know. Yeah. They're not recording the video.
Denny Lee (00:04:28):
Thank you.
Rob Collie (00:04:29):
So what was your role back then? What got you associated with Power Pivot Project Gemini?
Denny Lee (00:04:35):
I'll be honest. What associated with, because I was going, "Why in expletive were we doing this?" In fact, because before this, I was on the SQL customer advisory team, I was the BIDW lead. BIDW. I know big, big words and the reason I bring that up is only because we had just announced maybe what, nine months prior, the largest analysis services cube on the planet, which was the Yahoo Cube so that was 20... At the time that was back in what, 2010, 24 terabyte queue built on top of like, I want to say two perabyte, 5,000, [inaudible 00:05:14] cluster. And so at the time that was a pretty big thing. So it's probably even bigger thing now. So whatever, but still the point being like, especially back in 2010, that's pretty huge. And so I'm going like, "Okay. So I just helped build the largest cube on the planet." And so now we're going to focus on this thing, which is this two gigabyte model. And basically my jaw dropped to the floor.
Denny Lee (00:05:34):
I'm going, "I just helped build the largest cube on the planet and you want me to help build a two gigabyte model? You sure you didn't mix up the T and the G here? Like what, wait, what's going on here? So that's how I got involved. But suffice to say, after talking to you, after talking to Kamala, after talking to some of the other folks, I realized, "Oh, I'm missing the point." I actually missed the whole point altogether about this concept of self-serve BI because, of course, everything before was very much IT based BI. So yes, it makes sense for an IT team to go ahead and build the 24 terabytes. Actually. No, it doesn't. But nevertheless, you don't want to ask your domain expert to basically build a 24 terabyte cubes. That seems like a really bad idea. So yes. Yeah. But that's how you and I connected because I was going like, "Wait, why are we doing this?" And then after being educated by you, realized, "Oh, okay, cool. This is actually a lot cooler than I thought it would be."
Rob Collie (00:06:33):
It's really interesting to think about it. The irony, right, is that I was thinking about Power Pivot in light of like, holy cow, look at all this data capacity we can put into Excel now. This is just like orders and orders of magnitude explosion in the amount of data that can be addressed by an Excel Pivot Table. To me, it was like science fiction level increase and you're going, "That's it."
Denny Lee (00:07:01):
Exactly. [crosstalk 00:07:03].
Rob Collie (00:07:05):
Now, in fairness, I mean the compression does turn that two gigabytes and that's... The two gigabytes was the limit for file sizes in Office, but more specifically in SharePoint, right? I think it was the SharePoint limits. I wonder if that's even relevant today, but at the time it was super relevant, but yeah, the two gigabyte file size limit, even when compressed, might've been the equivalent of a 30 or 40 gigabyte normal cube, but you were still dealing with a different terabyte model. That's neat. Wait, this is so small. No, no. It's huge, trust us. Yeah. So you are one of the people who could write the old MDX.
Denny Lee (00:07:48):
That's right. Now we're hitting on the fact that Rob, Tom and I are old people. We're not talking about markdown extensions, all [crosstalk 00:07:55] framework. We're actually talking about MDX as the multi-dimensional expression. Does anybody still use it?
Rob Collie (00:08:03):
I think it's still used. Yeah.
Denny Lee (00:08:04):
Okay. Cool. Actually I have no idea-
Rob Collie (00:08:06):
But it's definitely been, in terms of popularity, it has been radically eclipsed by DAX. I mean even most of, if not all, but most of the former MDX celebrities now spend more time as DAX celebrities.
Denny Lee (00:08:22):
Do you want to mention names?
Rob Collie (00:08:24):
We've had some of them on the show, right? We've had Chris Webb, right? Okay. We haven't had the Italians.
Denny Lee (00:08:29):
Why not?
Rob Collie (00:08:30):
Well, I think we-
Denny Lee (00:08:30):
Alberto... Those guys are awesome.
Rob Collie (00:08:33):
I think we're going to, for sure. I mean, that's going to happen. Our goal is to eventually have like all 10 people who could write MDX back in the day, have them all on the show. We've had plenty of guests on the show where we talk about the origin stories of Power BI and all of that. Not that we couldn't talk about that. We absolutely could, but I think you represent an opportunity to talk about some incredibly different things that are happening today, things that are especially, I think a lot of people listening from the Microsoft data platform crowd might have less experience with a number of the things that you're deeply familiar with these days. And some of them do have experience with it. It's a very interesting landscape these days, in terms of technology like dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria, like from the Ghostbusters.
Rob Collie (00:09:18):
It's crazy how much overlap there is between different platforms. You can be a Microsoft centric shop and still utilize tons of Linux-based cloud services. And so I know what you're working on today, but let's pretend that I don't. Where are you working today, Danny? What are you doing? What are you up to?
Denny Lee (00:09:38):
I'm actually a developer advocate at Databricks and so the company Databricks itself was created by the founders of the Apache Spark project, which we're obviously still very active in. The folks behind projects like... And including Apache Spark and the recently [QUADS 00:09:57] project, which was to include the pandas API directly into Spark, but also things like MLflow for machine learning for Delta Lake, which is to bring transactions actually into a Data Lake, projects like that. That's what I've been involved with actually after all these years.
Denny Lee (00:10:10):
And just to put a little bit of the origin story back in just for a second, this actually all started because of that Yahoo cube. So what happened was that after I helped build the largest cube on the planet with Dave [Mariani 00:10:23] and Co just a shout out to Dave, what happened was that afterwards I was having regular conversations still as a Microsoft guy, right with Yahoo but we invariably went to like, "Wait, we don't want to process this cube anymore," because it would take the entire weekend to process a quarters worth of data. And if we ever need to reprocess all of it, that was literally two weeks offline. Sort of sucky. That's the technical term.
Rob Collie (00:10:46):
Had to be a technical term.
Denny Lee (00:10:49):
[crosstalk 00:10:49]Yeah, suck it. So what happened was that we were thinking, "What can we do to solve this problem?" And so we ended up both separately coming to the same conclusion that we were using Spark. So everything in terms of what I did afterwards, which I was part of the nine person team that created what now is known as HDInsight for project Isotope and then eventually joined Databricks was actually all from the fact that I was doing Spark back then, shortly after helping create the largest cube on the planet because of the fact we're going, "We don't want to move that much data anymore."
Rob Collie (00:11:21):
All right. Let's back up. That was a lot of names of technologies that went by there. It was a blur. Okay. So the founders of Databricks originally created Apache Spark?
Denny Lee (00:11:31):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:11:32):
All right. What is Apache Spark?
Denny Lee (00:11:35):
Apache Spark is a distributed framework, in memory framework that allows you to process massively large amounts of data across multiple notes, notes servers, computers, things of that nature in a nutshell. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:11:49):
So, that's what it does, but in terms of the market need, what market need did it fill? You had this kind of problem and then Apache Spark came along and you're like, "Oh my God."
Denny Lee (00:11:58):
The concept is, especially back then, the idea of web analytics. It was started with the idea that I needed to understand massive amounts of web data. Initially it was just understanding things like events and stuff. But then of course it quickly dovetailed to advertising, right? I need to understand were my advertising campaigns effective, except I have these massive amount of logs to deal with. In fact, that's what the Yahoo cube was. It was basically the display hats within Yahoo. Could they actually build solid campaigns for display ads on the Yahoo website? Well then what invariably happens is that this isn't just a Yahoo problem. This this is anybody that's doing anything remotely online that they had the same problem. And so what why became what now is considered the de facto big data platform is because of the fact that lots of companies, whether we're talking to the internet scale companies, or even what now are traditional companies, traditional enterprises, when it came down to that, they had a lot of data that was semi-structured or unstructured, as opposed to beautiful flat [crosstalk 00:13:03].
Denny Lee (00:13:03):
What you actually had was basically the semi-structured, unstructured key value pairs, [jfonts 00:13:08], all these other myriad of data formats that you actually had to process. And so, because you're trying to process all this data, what it came down to is you need a framework that was flexible enough to figure out how to process all that data. And so in the past, we would to say, "Hey, just check into the database or I mean we share the database and we could [inaudible 00:13:27] it. But the data itself wasn't even in a format that was easy to structure in first place.
Rob Collie (00:13:32):
Let's start there. The semi-structured and unstructured data revolution. We already had this problem before the internet, right before everybody went digital. But it really made it mainstream. The most obvious example is people like being in Google and Yahoo, these search engines, right? Them going out and indexing and essentially attempting to store the entire contents of the internet so that they can have a search engine. Imagine trying to decompose the contents of a webpage on a website, into a database friendly format. You could spend years on it just to get like one or two websites schema designed to fit... It would absorb one or two websites. And then the world's third website comes along and it doesn't fit.
Denny Lee (00:14:19):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:14:19):
... what you designed. And so I've actually, in terms of storage, the whole Hadoop style revolution of storage, I think is awesome, without any reservation. The whole notion of data warehousing, if you just take the words at face value, don't lose anything. And it was very, very, very expensive to use SQL as your way of not losing anything. And so these semi-structured stores were much more like, om, nom, nom, garbage cans. You could just feed them anything and they would keep it.
Denny Lee (00:14:49):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:14:50):
So then we get to the point where, oh, we actually want to go read some of that stuff.
Denny Lee (00:14:54):
Ah. There we go. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:14:55):
We don't want someone to store it. We want to be able to like, I don't know, maybe access it again later and do something with it-
Denny Lee (00:15:00):
Even get some actual value out of it.
Rob Collie (00:15:02):
Yeah. I mean, is that where Spark comes in? Is at that point?
Denny Lee (00:15:06):
Absolutely. So we would first start with Hadoop and so the context, if you want to think of it this way, is that because exactly to your point, I could build a functional program with MapReduce to allow me to have the maximum flexibility to basically... Because everybody likes writing in Java, I'm being very sarcastic by the way. Okay. Very, very sarcastic. You can't tell if you don't know me well, but yes. So I want to really call that out. So you love writing Java. You want to write the MapReduce code, but it does give you a massive amount of flexibility on how to parcel these logs and it's a solid framework. So while you wouldn't get the query back quickly, you could get the query back. And so the context is more like, if you're talking about like, especially at the time, you're talking about terabytes of data, right?
Denny Lee (00:15:52):
The time it would take for me to structure it, put into a database, organize it, realize the Sparks call wasn't working, I realized that I forgot variable A, B, C, and all these other things that you would iterate, especially with the classic waterfall model. By the time we did it, it's like 6, 7, 8 months later, if we're lucky. And then if you had a large enough server. There's all of these ifs. And so what happened with the concept of [inaudible 00:16:15] was like, "Okay, I don't care. It's distributed across these 8, 10, 20 commodity nodes. I didn't need any special server. I run the query, might take two weeks but the query would come back and I would get the result. And the people were like, "Well, why would you want to wait two weeks?" I'm like, "Well, we'll think about it from two ways. One, do I want to wait two weeks or do I want to wait eight months? Number one.
Denny Lee (00:16:40):
Number two. Yes, it's two weeks but then I can even figure out whether I even needed the data in the first place, right?
Rob Collie (00:16:46):
That's right.
Denny Lee (00:16:47):
And so how Spark gets added on top of this is saying, well, we can take the same concept as Hadoop, except do it on any storage, number one, you work specifically to Hadoop, you could do it on any storage, number one. And number two, it will be significantly faster because we could actually put a lot of the stuff... Stuff, a technical term into memory. So I could process the data in memory, as opposed to just going ahead and basically being limited four or eight gigabyte, especially with the older JVMs, right, limited to that much memory to do the processing.
Rob Collie (00:17:20):
I have a hyper simplified view of all of this, which took me a long time to come around to, which is the old way, was to look at a bunch of data and figure out how to store it in rectangles. And that's very, very, very, very difficult, labor intensive. That's the six, seven months, if you're lucky. And by the way, rule number two is you're never lucky.
Denny Lee (00:17:41):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:17:43):
So six or seven months is what this project is specked to be at the beginning. And it never comes in on time.
Denny Lee (00:17:48):
We don't hit that target anyways. Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:17:50):
And then the world changes and all of your rectangular storage needs to be rethought. Right? Okay. So pre-rectangle-ing the data to store it ends up being just a losing battle. Now analysis, I like to think of analysis. Analysis is always rectangle based. When you go to analyze something, you're going to be looking at the things that these different websites have in common. You always are going to be extracting rectangles to perform your analysis. I loved your description of like, okay, we can take six, seven months wink, wink to store it as rectangles. And then we get fast rectangle retrieval. We think we hope,
Denny Lee (00:18:26):
We hope.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
We probably did not anticipate the right rectangles or we can delay that. We can delay the rectangularization. Store it really easily and cheaply by the way, quickly, easily cheaply. And later when we're fully informed about what rectangles we need, that's when the rectangle work happens and even in the old days, when all we had was Hadoop's original storage engine, two weeks, yeah, I can see that leaving a mark at runtime. That's also what we call a sucky. We call that slow in the tech universe, but it's still better than the six or seven actually 14, 20 months from before. Okay. So Spark walks into that and through some incredibly hocus-pocus magic, just brings fast queries, essentially fast rectangle extraction to that world where you still don't have to pre-rectangle. You still get all the benefits of the unstructured cheap commodity storage, but now you don't have to wait two weeks for it to run.
Denny Lee (00:19:25):
Right. So if you remember our old Hadoop hive days, we would rally around the benefits of schema on read, right and don't get me wrong. I can go on for hours about that's not quite right.
Rob Collie (00:19:34):
You're giving me way too much credit right now. I've never touched Hadoop. I'm aware of it and we use Data Lake storage at our company and all that kind of stuff. Think of it this way. I have a historians point of view, a technical historian's point of view on this stuff. But like you start talking about, "Yeah, you remember back in our days and we were like sling..." No, I can play along, but it would feel inauthentic.
Denny Lee (00:19:56):
No, fair enough. So from the audience perspective, the idea of schema on read in essence using Rob's analogy would be like, you store a bunch of circles, triangles, stars. That's what's in your cheap storage and the idea of schema on read at the time that you run your query at runtime, I will then generate the rectangles based off of the circles and squares and stars that I have in my storage.
Rob Collie (00:20:20):
Oh, okay. I actually misheard you as well, which I thought you said schema and read. Schema on read.
Denny Lee (00:20:27):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:20:27):
That's awesome. I wasn't even aware of that term, but now that you say it, yeah. That's runtime rectangle. Rectangle when we go to query. Okay, awesome. There was the technical term for-
Denny Lee (00:20:37):
Yes, there is a technical term for runtime rectangles. That's correct.
Rob Collie (00:20:40):
I feel so incredibly validated. I will effortlessly slip schema on read into conversation.
Denny Lee (00:20:49):
Perfect. So, but I'm going to go with the analogy. So in other words, now that we generate runtime rectangles, the whole premise of it was that with Spark we could generate those runtime rectangles significantly faster and get the results to people significantly faster than before with Hadoop. And so that's why Spark became popular. And the irony of it all was that that actually wasn't its original design. Its actual design was actually around machine learning, which is not even runtime rectangles. Now it's runtime erase. So like Vector, so it's a completely different thing, but what ultimately got it to become popular wasn't the runtime arrays of vectors? It was actually the runtime rectangles so people could actually say, "Oh, you mean I don't have to wait two weeks for the query. I can get that query down in a couple of hours?" "Yeah." "Oh, okay. Well then let me go do that."
Rob Collie (00:21:39):
So that's it, right? Miller time. We're done. That's it. That's the end of the technology story. We don't need [crosstalk 00:21:43]
Denny Lee (00:21:43):
Yeah, we're done. That's it? There's nothing else there.
Thomas Larock (00:21:47):
We've hit the peak.
Denny Lee (00:21:48):
Yeah, that's it. We've hit the peak.
Rob Collie (00:21:50):
This is the end of history. Right.
Denny Lee (00:21:52):
Yeah, this is it.
Thomas Larock (00:21:54):
We're at the end of the universe.
Denny Lee (00:21:55):
But I'm sure as we all know, the curve, the Gartner hype cycle and everything else for that matter, that's not quite the case. And what's interesting is that especially considering all of us were old database folks or at least very database adjacent, even if we're not database specific. One of the things we realized about this runtime rectangle or the schema on read concept was wait, garbage in, garbage out. Went out of your way to store all of this data. You should do that. In some cases you really do have to leave it in whatever state you get it. Because like whatever the query for the rest API, whatever [inaudible 00:22:36] packet protocol, whatever, whatever format. Sometimes you don't have a choice and that's fine. I'm not against that idea because the context is, especially back in 2011, 2012, we were using statistics like the amount of data generated in the last year was more than the amount of data generated in all of history before that.
Thomas Larock (00:22:57):
You know that's a bullshit statement, right?
Denny Lee (00:22:58):
Whether it's a bullshit statement is actually irrelevant to me because the context is not wrong. The reason that statement came up was actually because machines were generating the data now. So since machines are generating the data, the problem is that we don't actually have people in the way of the data being generated. So it's going to be a heck of a lot more than any organic person involved to be able to make sense of that.
Rob Collie (00:23:22):
I love that exchange there, right? The amount of data generated in this timeframe is more than that timeframe. Tom says, "You know that's a bullshit statement." Then he says, "Hey, do not let the truth get in the way of a good concept."
Denny Lee (00:23:33):
Exactly. Do not. Do not do not. It's okay.
Thomas Larock (00:23:39):
That doesn't matter. What I just said doesn't matter.
Denny Lee (00:23:42):
Exactly to your point though. That's the whole point. It doesn't matter what the statement really is in this case. What really matters is the fact that there is that much generated data. That's what it boils down to. Right? It doesn't matter what the marketing people said. Businesses still had a problem where they had all of this data not structured coming in. And so now the problem is, it's mostly noise. It's mostly garbage and you're going to need time to figure out what's actually useful and what's not. You can automate to your heart's content and so that means, okay, sure, I've processed part of the data to figure that out. But the reality is there's always new devalues, new attributes, new whatever, coming in. At least if you're successful, there's new something coming in. And if there's no something coming in, whatever format that is, you're going to have to figure out what to do with it.
Denny Lee (00:24:39):
And so at some point, especially when you take into account of things like streaming systems, where basically just data is constantly coming through and it's not like batch oriented at all where basically data's coming through. Multiple streams that ultimately you want to place into a table. What does it imply? It implies that I actually want a rectangle, a structure of some type at the closest point to where the data resides right from the get-go. Because what I want, isn't all of the key value stores. What I want is all the information, but there's a difference between information and data or if you want to go the other way, there's a difference between noise and data. So whatever way you want to phrase it, I'm cool either way with that too. But the fact is the vast majority of what's coming in is noise. You got to extract something out of it.
Denny Lee (00:25:32):
And then that's where the sticky, coil mining analogies kick in. And again, I'm not going to play with that one, but the point is what it boils down to is that that means I need some structure to what I'm doing, flexibility still. So if I need to change the structure, I can do that, but I need some form of structure. And so what's interesting about this day and age, especially in this day of like we're using Spark as the primary data processing framework, is that there are like, I want to talk about Delta Lake, but as a call-out to other projects, there are other, projects like [inaudible 00:26:01], there's other projects like Apache Iceberg, right? And I'm going to talk about Delta Lake, but we all came roughly the same time with the exact same conclusion. We've been letting so much garbage into our data, we need some form of structure around it so we can actually figure out what's the valuable bits.
Rob Collie (00:26:18):
It seems like a really hard problem. I mean, even like without technology in the way one person's trash is another person's treasurer.
Denny Lee (00:26:25):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:26:26):
What's considered trash today is treasure tomorrow. And if I wanted to be really snarky, I'd be like, "Are you saying that we need to go back to rectangular storage in the first place?" So it's back to SQL after all?
Denny Lee (00:26:40):
Almost. In fact that's exactly what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that I want to get the rectangles as close to the storage, but not actually the storage itself. Okay. The reason I want to get as close to is because of exactly what you said, because maybe today, the stars in my circle, star, square analogy are what's important and then need to be converted into rectangles, but I don't need the circles and I don't need the triangles. Later on, I realize maybe I need the triangles or some of them, not all the triangles. And later on, I may need... You know, forget about the triangles altogether. Let's just put the circles in and whatever else. But the context is exactly that. So you want structured storage as close to the storage, as you can ,without actually going ahead and messing with your input systems. Because typically there's two reasons why you can't mess with it.
Denny Lee (00:27:29):
One is because you're not controlling it, right? If you're hitting a source system, you're hitting a REST API, it is what it is. That's the source system. So you're going to get whatever it is. And so in order to ensure that you've [inaudible 00:27:42] and you've kept it as close to the original value as possible, your job is basically if it's a REST API call, grab the JSON packet, chuck it down to disk as fast as you can so that way... And validate for that matter, that the JSON's fully formed. So that way, okay, got it. This is the correct thing that also [inaudible 00:27:59] store, but now once you've done that, you can say, "Okay, well out of this JSON packet, I actually only need six of the columns.
Rob Collie (00:28:04):
Are we talking about dynamic structured caching?
Denny Lee (00:28:09):
No. Good call, but no, it's not. First of all, there's actually two problems. One is dynamic and one's caching.
Thomas Larock (00:28:15):
You're right. There's a difference between information and the data. I want to point out that all information is data, but not all data is information, right? [crosstalk 00:28:26] and we can talk about busting your stones about more data's being created because Stephen Hawking would tell you that information is neither created or lost in the universe. It's all around us. Nothing's ever been created or destroyed. No information could be lost, otherwise there's a problem with the universe. So when people talk about what they're really talking about is they're just able to collect more. It's always been there. They just never had the ability to go and get it so easily. Like you're at a buffet and you just can't stop. So here's the problem I see is when you talk about this stuff, I really see two worlds. I said, problem. That's not fair, but there's two worlds.
Thomas Larock (00:29:05):
The first thing is, you have to know what question you want answered. So there're some executives somewhere and he goes, "I got questions. I need answers." You have to go and collect the data. You have to go and get the information to answer those questions.
Denny Lee (00:29:21):
Correct.
Thomas Larock (00:29:22):
What you're really talking about though, is something... It's almost like a deep state R&D project. I'm going to go get all the data. Maybe it's information. I don't know. I'm searching for an extra signal. I'm like SETI and I'm trying to find a signal that we don't know exists yet because I think it might have more information. However, in the meantime, while you're waiting six months for something to finish, the executives like, "I need red, green, yellow." I need to make a decision. I can't wait the six months. So I think there's really two fields here and I don't think people talk enough about the overlap because they always talk about how, I'm just going to fire up 10 more nodes and we're just going to process all this. And we're just going to keep looking for something that might have some value. Who knows? And you're still missing... I just need an actionable dashboard right now. Here's my question. What information will satisfy that question? And I need you to keep ensuring that the quality of the information you're giving me is of the same level.
Thomas Larock (00:30:20):
Now, if there's something new that you discover later, that's great, but for now I just need something now. Anyway, I just feel that a lot of times people head down the path that you're at, but then you are the edge case, right? You're building Yahoo cubes and all that. And I remember when all that was coming out and it's just wonderful, but you're such an edge case, but I think people want to be that edge case that you're at and they just want to get everything they can and look for that signal. And I'm not sure that that's where people really need to be. I think in a lot of cases, people can have like a little bit of a simpler life, but they should think about the stuff you're doing at Databricks and Spark and all that and think about it more as... It's more research, in my opinion.
Denny Lee (00:31:04):
Actually, I disagree with that statement, but not for the reasons you think. So, because I actually agree with, I'd say 80% of what you're saying. The reason why I say that is because what typically happens though, is that when the executive or the product manager or whatever recognizes they need that data or something new comes in, by the time they actually need it, and when you start processing it to finally integrate it in the dashboards and the reports and everything else, it's too late. Number one.
Thomas Larock (00:31:39):
Agree.
Denny Lee (00:31:39):
Number two, from an ad hoc perspective, more times than not, you don't even know what you know, until you start processing it. Now, saying what you just said, I do actually agree with you on the point, which is, you're not supposed to make this into a deep state research project where you're grabbing everything. I do agree with that wholeheartedly, in fact.
Denny Lee (00:32:00):
This has nothing to do with structure or anything else. This has to do purely has to do with... Look, you're storing all this stuff. There's actually a couple of really important things to call out. One, you're spending money to store it. If you're storing that much data, it's going to cost money. Do you need to store all this stuff? Number two, do you have privacy concerns by storing all of this data? You can't just store data and for the fun of it and not taking the [inaudible 00:32:28] that you actually have security protocols, you have privacy protocols that you actually have to care about. Sorry, you do. Okay. And this is before I get into HIPAA health act, GRC compliance of CCPA, any of that stuff, right? That's a whole other conversation. So you actually have to care about these things. You're not supposed to just go in and randomly report stuff.
Denny Lee (00:32:46):
So like I said, I actually agree with the sentiment in what you're talking about. What I think the only difference between... And where the 20% arrives is that when you are a moderately size or larger company, what the concern really is is that you really don't know what you don't know. And if you're going to be processing any data when you're a moderately sized company or larger, you ultimately need to process a lot more data than you want even, in order to get to that actual dashboard. Does it replace the actual dashboard? Quite the opposite. It means you need to create better ones faster. We're actually not that far apart. It's just more that part about saying, okay, ultimately we don't know what we don't know. So if you're a moderate sized company, you're going to have to probably process more data, but you have to respect the data.
Thomas Larock (00:33:39):
I actually think we're closer than the 80% because I did leave that part out where that data, if you're collecting the right data, it should lead you to ask more questions about the data. I do agree with that. I think my point was when people think about some of these projects, there's not enough structure around it. Like, "Hey, what's the information I need right now for what I can do. And then what's the other stuff that I have to go and look for." And yes, good data should lead to good questions. "Hey, I'm curious. Can we do this other thing too?" Now we're talking now it's going to take four weeks. Now, it's going to take six weeks and that's okay. And that's what I call that research part. But you only get there by asking the exact questions.
Denny Lee (00:34:17):
Exactly. You should never start with the context of like, "Let me just grab everything," because I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. This is a cost problem. This is a security problem. There's a privacy problem. There's all sorts of problems. And you don't start that way. Anybody that ever starts that way will fail. Unequivocally will fail their project. And I'm going like, "No, no, no, it's newer." I'm like, "No, same problem in the data warehousing world." The same problem.
Thomas Larock (00:34:39):
But that's a problem for future you [crosstalk 00:34:44] you today, you don't have to worry about that. That's a problem for future [inaudible 00:34:48].
Denny Lee (00:34:48):
Yeah. I guess if you follow the idea that I'll just switch jobs every two years and then I can run away. Sure. I guess that's fine, but I would hope that all of us at least, when we're doing this podcast, we're actually trying to advise people who actually want to provide value authorized [crosstalk 00:35:03]
Rob Collie (00:35:05):
Given the truthiness of more data being created in the last five seconds than in all of human history, Denny's going to have to have me changing jobs more than every two years. Right. Denny's had a larger number of different employers in the last week than most people have in seven lifetimes, just to keep escaping the data storage. So let's get back to the linear progression. Right? We had started with data warehousing, turn everything into rectangles, incredibly expensive, incredibly slow, even just to get it stored. Then we went full semi-structured Hadoop, which has delayed the rectangularization, schema on read. I'm going to just drop that right in there. I'm just practicing. I'm trying it on-
Denny Lee (00:35:49):
We're there for you, man.
Rob Collie (00:35:51):
... But it was a two week query time. So then along comes Spark and now it's a lot faster. And we were starting to turn the corner as to, we need something that resembles structured rectangular style... I don't know. I'm going to use the word storage, but I'm very tentative about that word. We need concept of structure as close to the semi-structured storage as we could possibly get. I don't think we finished that story, but I'm definitely not yet understanding is this where we turn the corner into Delta Lake and Lake House or is it Databricks? What are we-
Denny Lee (00:36:28):
No, no. It's actually, is the turn of [inaudible 00:36:30] Delta Lake and Databricks and Lake House for that matter, because that's exactly what happened. So at Databricks, the advantage of us using Spark and helped create it, is that we were now working with larger and larger customers that had to process larger and larger amounts of data. And they're so large that basically we have to have multiple people trying to query at the same time. And so you remember old database, the idea of like, do I do dirty reads, do I have snapshots rights, things of that nature. So what invariably happened with almost every single one of my larger customers, was that all of a sudden this idea that your job's failing, and that's normal, right? Your jobs failing, but they'll restart. But how about if they fail, fail?
Denny Lee (00:37:14):
What ends up happening is that these files are left over in your storage. And this is any distribute system, by the way. This isn't a specific to Spark. This is any distribute system that's doing right. If it's doing a distribute multiple tasks, a job that runs multiple task, that's writing those multiple tasks onto multiple nodes with multiple nodes or writing to disk of some type storage of any type, invariably something fails. And so, because something fails, all of a sudden you're left over with a bunch of orphaned files. Well, anybody that's trying to read it is going to say, "Wait, how do I know these files are actually applicable versus these faults actually need to be thrown away?" You need this concept called a transaction to clarify which files are actually valid in your system. So that's how it all started. It all started with us going backwards in time, recognizing the solution was already in hand, we've been doing it for decades already with database systems, we needed to bring transactions into our Data Lake storage.
Rob Collie (00:38:17):
Quick, an important historical question and both of your histories, Denny and Tom, have you had experience? Have you performed dirty reads and if so, were they done dirt cheap? All right. Had to do that.
Thomas Larock (00:38:34):
So in my answer, my answer, Rob is yes. I was young and I needed the work.
Rob Collie (00:38:42):
I mean, now we need to write the whole song. Right?
Thomas Larock (00:38:45):
I'm just going to tweet it. [crosstalk 00:38:48] Tweet it so I can [crosstalk 00:38:50].
Denny Lee (00:38:50):
At this point we literally could do a trio here without any problems because we know for a fact you qualify.
Rob Collie (00:38:55):
So, is that ultimately like tagline for Databricks, dirty reads done dirt cheap, but it's not dirty because it's transactional.
Denny Lee (00:39:03):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:39:04):
I think the world would really respond. Well, the problem is, is that we're now old enough that that song is like the Beatles.
Denny Lee (00:39:11):
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. We should probably provide context to our audience here.
Thomas Larock (00:39:18):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:39:19):
That is an old AC/DC song. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap. That's the album title too.
Thomas Larock (00:39:23):
I think all four Beatles were still alive when that stuff-
Denny Lee (00:39:26):
Yes, all four Beatles were alive during that song.
Rob Collie (00:39:29):
John Bonham from Zeppelin might've still been alive.
Thomas Larock (00:39:35):
So, we're aging ourselves to our entire audience. Thank you very much.
Rob Collie (00:39:39):
All right. All right. All right. And dad joking to the extreme.
Thomas Larock (00:39:42):
We've thrown around the term, JSON a lot.
Rob Collie (00:39:44):
Can we demystify that for the audience? I actually do know what this is but like-
Thomas Larock (00:39:49):
It's call hipster, XML.
Rob Collie (00:39:51):
JSON equals hipster XML?
Thomas Larock (00:39:53):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:39:53):
Okay. All right. This sets up another topic later. Denny, would you agree that JSON is hipster XML?
Denny Lee (00:39:59):
I absolutely would not, even though I love the characterization, but the reason why is because I, [crosstalk 00:40:06] Hey, Rob. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying it.
Rob Collie (00:40:12):
Me too. Okay.
Thomas Larock (00:40:14):
See. Is Jason a subset of XML?
Denny Lee (00:40:15):
JSON is an efficient way for semi-structured data to actually seem structured when you transmit it.
Rob Collie (00:40:25):
Okay. So, it's the new CSV, but with spiraling, nesting, curly structures.
Denny Lee (00:40:30):
Correct because it allows you to put vectors in a raise quite efficiently and allows you to put [Nyssa 00:40:35] structures in efficient.
Rob Collie (00:40:36):
So it's a text-based data format, right?
Denny Lee (00:40:38):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:40:38):
... so that it's multi-platform readable-
Denny Lee (00:40:41):
Exactly.
Thomas Larock (00:40:42):
Yeah. It's XML.
Denny Lee (00:40:44):
No.
Rob Collie (00:40:45):
It's hips and mouth.
Denny Lee (00:40:46):
So, I believe I have war stories probably because of you Rob about all... Especially when reviewing the XML A.
Rob Collie (00:40:57):
Oh yeah. Well, listen, I don't have a whole lot to do with that.
Denny Lee (00:41:02):
[crosstalk 00:41:02] I'm just saying, Tom, you will vouch for me. The insanity of XML, right? You will vouch that. Yes, please. Thank you. I'm supposed to figure out the queue structure with this thing? My VS, visual studio is collapsing on me right now.
Rob Collie (00:41:21):
Well, hey look that XML A stuff which had nothing to do with creating, is the thing that we talked about with Brian Jones on a recent episode. That's the stuff that was saved in the Power Pivot file as the backup so that we could manually edit that and then deliberately corrupt the item one.data file in the Power Pivot stream and force a bulk update to like formulas and stuff. And yes, it was a pain in the ass. Okay. So JSON, it's advanced CSV, it's XML like, it's the triple IPA of XML or is it the milk stout? Is it the milk stout of XML?
Denny Lee (00:41:58):
I'm not even partaking in this particular conversation? I'm just-
Thomas Larock (00:42:02):
Honestly, JSON would be like the west coast hazy IPA. Okay-
Denny Lee (00:42:07):
Okay. Fine. I will agree to that one. You're right. You're right. West coast hazy IPA. Fair. That's fair.
Rob Collie (00:42:12):
All right. All right. Okay. Well, I'm glad we I'm glad we did that. I'm glad we went there. And the majority of... I'm going to test this statement... The majority of Data Lake storage is in JSON format?
Denny Lee (00:42:23):
No. Actually the majority is in the parquet format or ORC format, by the way, depending on it. But which is basically for all intents and purposes a binary representation from JSON into a column store.
Rob Collie (00:42:34):
I'm just going to pretend I didn't ask that question. I'm going to move on. All right. So is it the notion that when you're reading from Spark, which is of course reading from other places that because things are being updated in real time, it has unreliable reads.
Denny Lee (00:42:52):
So it's not just Spark. Any system.
Rob Collie (00:42:55):
Sure. Why did Spark need Databricks?
Denny Lee (00:42:58):
Fair enough. And I mean, it's more like in this case, honestly, it's why does Spark need Delta Lake? And to be fair to the other systems are out there. And like I said, there's iceberg Hadoop as well, but I'm going to just call out Delta Lake. Right. But the reason was because it's very obvious when you talk about streaming. If I've got two streams that are trying to write to the same table at the same time, and one invariably wants to do an update while another wants to do a deletion, that's a classic database transactional problem.
Rob Collie (00:43:25):
Even like a Dropbox problem, right? You have multiple users in Dropbox. I get merge conflicts all the time.
Denny Lee (00:43:30):
Right. So that's exactly the point, right? What it boils down to is that when you get large enough in scale, I don't mean size of your company. I just mean the amount of data you're processing in which you could conceivably have multiple people trying to write or read or both at the same time, you could solve that by two people trying to do the same thing at the same time, and you'd still have the same problem. Why did databases become awkward? That was one of the key facets that we could either succeed or fail. It was very binary. It's succeeded or failed. So we knew whatever went in, it got in, or if it failed, you're given an alert and you're told, "Guess what? It didn't work. You need to try again." Right. Same concept. That's what basically it boils down to. It's like, if you're going to be using your Data Lake as a mechanism to store all of your data, will then do not want transactions to protect that data so that it's clear as daylight what's valid and what's invalid.
Denny Lee (00:44:31):
So I'm not even trying to do a product pitch at this point. I can do that later, but I'm just saying... It's like, no, just start with that statement. When you have a Data Lake, you want to basically make sure whatever systems processing it, whatever systems reading it. I don't care which one you're using honestly. Obviously I hope you're using Spark, but the fact is I don't care. You use any system at all that's trying to read or write from it. Don't do you not want to make sure that there are some form of consistency, transactional guarantees to ensure what's in there is valid. And then once you've accepted that problem, that this is a problem that you want solved, then invariably that'll lead you to the various different technologies.
Denny Lee (00:45:09):
Again, I'll be talking about Spark and Delta Lake because I think they're awesome, but the reality is like, that's why the problem, right? That's why we realized this was crucial for most people. Incidentally, that's why we open sourced Delta Lake because we're going like, "No, it's so important that I don't care which platform you're using it on." I don't care if you're using it on Databricks. I don't care if you're using Spark. We just don't care.
Denny Lee (00:45:34):
Because the whole point is that you got to trust your data first. And if you can't trust your data, forget about machine learning. Forget about BI. Forget about all of these other systems that you want to do downstream. I need to make sure whatever store my Data Lake is actually valid. And then a lot of other people will tell me like, "Oh yeah, well maybe if you could just shove into a database or chuck it over, all this other stuff, I'm like, don't get me wrong. I'm all for databases. Just because I'm a smart guy, doesn't mean I hate databases. Quite the opposite. I've run my own personal Postgres and my SQL still to this day and SQL server. Yes. I have a Window box somewhere in this house so I can-
Thomas Larock (00:46:05):
See if it runs on Linux.
Denny Lee (00:46:08):
SQL can run [crosstalk 00:46:11] No, it's true. It's true. But I'm still old school. I actually, no joke, still have a running at least I should say I used to still have a running 2008 R2 instance somewhere. The
Thomas Larock (00:46:19):
The Lee household, by the way, doesn't actually ever need heat. [crosstalk 00:46:23] It's heat by CPU.
Denny Lee (00:46:25):
Right. All the stick at CPs and GPS. I can actually cook an egg now. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:46:33):
It's like the most expensive power way to cook something.
Denny Lee (00:46:35):
Exactly. Yeah.
Thomas Larock (00:46:37):
So he doesn't touch a thermostat. He just spins up like a hundred nodes. There you go.
Denny Lee (00:46:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:46:42):
That recent heat wave in Seattle was actually when Denny's air conditioning failed and it started pumping all that heat out into the atmosphere.
Denny Lee (00:46:50):
Yeah. Oops. Sorry about that guys. My bad.
Rob Collie (00:46:52):
Is it El Nino? No, it's Denny.
Denny Lee (00:46:55):
Thank you. I'm already in enough trouble as it is Rob. Do you really need to add to the list of things? I mean, I'm in trouble for now.
Rob Collie (00:47:02):
We're going to blame you for everything.
Denny Lee (00:47:03):
Oh, fair enough. No, that's all right. That's completely fair. But the concept's basically, it's like, because of its volume, it's sitting in the Data Lake anyways. Do I want to take all of it and move it around or somewhere else? And I'm like, I'm telling you. No, you don't. That's the exactly the Yahoo promo. I know it's sort of funny, but I'm really going right back to Yahoo. When we had this two petabyte system, we were moving hundreds of terabytes in order to get in to that cube. I'm going, "Why, why would I want to do that?" And especially considering we had to basically update it with new dimensions and new everything like every month or so, which meant that we were changing the cube, which meant we're changing the staging databases that was in... Which was basically this massive Oracle rack server and then against your petabytes of data. The whole premise is like, I obviously want dashboards, but I don't want to move that much data to create the dashboards.
Rob Collie (00:47:59):
Sure. My jaw is on the floor at this point and oh my God, we didn't have the concept of transactions in Data Lakes from the beginning?
Denny Lee (00:48:11):
That's correct.
Rob Collie (00:48:12):
Oh my God.
Thomas Larock (00:48:14):
It's just a lake.
Denny Lee (00:48:14):
Yeah, it's a lake. [crosstalk 00:48:16]. Why would you bother? All right.
Thomas Larock (00:48:19):
So the idea, because-
Rob Collie (00:48:20):
... multiple people are peeing in that lake at the same time.
Denny Lee (00:48:23):
Well, there you go. So people were under the perception that people weren't peeing in the lake, so the lake is perfectly fine. And then in reality, not only are people peeing in the lake, you got all sorts of other duties inside there. So yes, I'm using duty.
Rob Collie (00:48:39):
You've got streams crossing, you've got all kinds of things. So I'm absolutely getting smarter right now. And I'm super, super, super grateful for it. Where do I like to get smarter? That's right in front of an audience. That's the best place to learn. Everyone could go, "Oh my God, you didn't know that."
Denny Lee (00:48:54):
I think Tom can vouch for me though. The fact that you're getting smarter with me on is not a good testament for you, buddy.
Thomas Larock (00:48:59):
No.
Rob Collie (00:49:00):
Ah, no. Come on. You're something else, bud. So
Denny Lee (00:49:02):
That's right. Something else, but that doesn't mean smarter.
Rob Collie (00:49:07):
I think your ability to bring things down is next level. Okay. So transactions. I'd heard about Databricks for a while, but in prepping for this, I went and looked at your LinkedIn.
Denny Lee (00:49:20):
Oh wow.
Rob Collie (00:49:20):
... and I saw these other terms, Delta Lake and Lake House, but Databricks has existed longer than those things. Is that true?
Denny Lee (00:49:29):
That is absolutely true.
Rob Collie (00:49:29):
And the company is called Databricks.
Denny Lee (00:49:31):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:49:32):
So what is the reason for Databricks to exist? Is it because of this transactional problem or is it something else?
Denny Lee (00:49:40):
No, actually that's where I can introduce the Lake House. So if I go all marketing fun just for a second, like you use your data bricks to build your lake house. Bam.
Rob Collie (00:49:51):
Oh no, no.
Denny Lee (00:49:55):
Yeah. I did that. I did. No, no. Data bricks are what you use to build a data factory and a data warehouse. Now you live in the Data Lake house, right? No. You make the data bricks to build your Data Lake house. Absolutely. I don't need a data factory. I'm building a beautiful Data Lake house. It's right on the water. It's gorgeous. I'm sitting back. I'm listening. Yeah, no-
Thomas Larock (00:50:15):
Again, no. The Data Lake house is part of your data estate. I get that. Okay. But to me, you're using the Databricks for the data warehouse, the data factory. And do you shop at the data Mart? I get it.
Rob Collie (00:50:27):
I'm trying to be so deliberate here. So look, we're trying to follow a chronology. We want a number line here. And so first there were Databricks. Why Databrick?
Denny Lee (00:50:39):
Why Databricks is because we wanted to be able to put some value add initially on top of Apache Spark. Right? So the idea that you can run a Apache Spark with it's open source is great, and lots of companies have been able to either use it themselves without us. Or there are said cloud providers and vendors that are able to take the same open source technology and build services around that and have benefited greatly for doing that. Databricks decided to not go down the traditional vendor route because the decider say, we're going into the cloud right from the get-go. At the time that we did it, it seemed really risky. In hindsight, it makes a lot of sense. But at the time that we did it back in 2013, seemed really risky because they're going like, "We could get lots of money for on-prem customers," because that's where the vast majority of customers work.
Denny Lee (00:51:30):
But where we saw the value was this concept that with the elasticity of the cloud, there is going to be a whole different set of value add that Spark and the cloud together will bring that you can't get on-prem. The idea that I can automatically spin up nodes when you need them, if you ever log into Databricks, the idea is like we default between two and eight nodes. So you start with two worker nodes and then basically you'll scale up to eight automatically. But just as important scaled out, just as important. So the idea that once you're done, we're not leaving those eight nodes on. If we're seeing no activity, [inaudible 00:52:08] those nodes go back down. You're not running. It's idle after 60 minutes. That's our default. Fine. We're just shutting it down. The idea that instead of you writing lots of code yourself, you've got a nodebook environment.
Denny Lee (00:52:22):
Not only does it make it easier to write it, but also to run your queries, but also has permissions that also has commenting. But also on top of that, if you're closest to shut down, everything's still safe. You can still see the nodebook. You can see the output of the nodebook still saved for you, but you're not paying for the price of a cluster. Right? So this is what I mean by value added. So that's how we started. Right. And so that's how plenty of people who were into machine learning or to just big data processing. They got interested in us because we're the value add was that now they didn't have to maintain to configure all these Spark clusters. It automatically happened for them. They were automatically optimized right away.
Rob Collie (00:53:05):
So it's probably the wrong word, we'll get there by depth charging around it a little bit. So was Databricks when it first came out, was it a cloud-based like layer of abstraction and management?
Denny Lee (00:53:17):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:17):
... across Spark nodes?
Denny Lee (00:53:18):
Exactly. That's it.
Rob Collie (00:53:21):
I I hit the sub with the first depth charge.
Denny Lee (00:53:23):
And all sources were assessed or passed, however you want to phrase it.
Rob Collie (00:53:26):
All right. So that's Databricks.
Denny Lee (00:53:27):
Yeah. And so just to give the context, every single technology that we're involved with, whether it's the advancements of Apache Spark to go from, for example, you had to write the stuff initially in Scala, which is how-
Rob Collie (00:53:42):
[inaudible 00:53:42].
Denny Lee (00:53:42):
So credit to Scala... but then you had to write it in Python, right? But then over time we added data frames with the [Smart 2X 00:53:50] line, all of a sudden, now this concept of actually running in SQL, because that makes a lot more sense for everybody. And the Smart 3.0, which includes ability for the Python developers to interact with it better. Or that when we introduced Delta Lake or when we introduced MLflow, all of these different technologies were the realization of as we're working with more and more customers, what were some of the parts that really are needed for the whole community to thrive, irrelevant of whether they're on Databricks or not and which parts are going to be the parts where we will quote unquote, keep for ourselves because we're the value add.
Denny Lee (00:54:28):
We're going to provide you something valuable on top of said open source technologies, so that way you can still benefit from the learnings. So a [inaudible 00:54:38] and MLflow and Smart, for example, using those technologies, you can still benefit from everything we're saying. It's like, we're still publishing reams of white papers and blogs telling people how to do stuff, because that's the whole point. It's basically a large educational push. We want everybody to grok that there's a lot of value here and here's how to get that value. And then Databricks, if we can say, yeah, but we can make it faster, we'll make it simpler or make it whatever, that's where we will be valuable to you. Now, bring it back to the Databricks to the Lake House concept, if you think about purely from a, why did we use the term Lake House, what it boils down to is the whole value of a data warehouse was the fact that you could protect the data, you had asset transactions.
Denny Lee (00:55:21):
You could store the data, you could trust what was being stored and you could generate marts off of it to do your business dashboards, whatever else. That's the whole premise, this one central repository. Okay. So where Databricks came in, it was like, well, in a lot of ways, we gave away a cyclotron in the house. We gave away Spark for the processing. We gave away Delta Lake for the transactional protections. On the machine learning side, we're even giving away [inaudible 00:55:46] But the things that there's also all these other technologies like TensorFlow for deep learning, your Pandas, your scikit-learn for machine learning, all these other things, right?
Denny Lee (00:55:53):
There's all these other frameworks put together. So the premise is that as opposed to, we grew up where it was relatively unfragmented by the time that we got into database systems and SQL server and things of that nature. Right now the system is still massively fragmented with all these different technologies and it'll stay that way for a while not because there's anything wrong, but because we're constantly making advancements. So the value add, what we do is basically saying, "Okay, well, can you make everything I just said, simpler?" Number one. And then for example, now back to the in-memory column store, when you look at Databricks and we said, we have to make Spark faster. So we made Spark as fast as we possibly can. But the problem is that when you're running Spark in general, there's the spin-up time to build up your tasks, spin up time to run the jobs, spin up time to do the task.
Denny Lee (00:56:47):
There's an overhead. Now that overhead makes a ton of sense for what it's use cases for, which is, in this case, I have a large amount of data. I need to figure out how to process that. But what's a typical BI style? Of course, you already have it structured. You already know more or less what you have to work with. It's just go do it. We can push Spark to a point, but we can't get any faster because at some point literally the JVM becomes a blocker and the fact that we have this flexibility to spin up tasks to analyze the data becomes the blocker. We're not about to remove the flexibility of Spark. That seems silly. So what does Databricks do? And this is one of the many features of quote unquote, the Lake House that Databricks offers, which is, okay, we built a C++ vectorized column store engine.
Denny Lee (00:57:36):
So how can you do BI crews on your Data Lake? Guess what? We've written in C++. We're going back old school back to our day in order to be able to work around that. We can make some general assumptions about what BI queries are. So since we can make those assumptions, the aggregate step you're making, even distincts though, that's always a hard problem anyways, right? The joints that you're making, the group [eyes 00:57:58] you're making, right? You can make these types of assumptions. If you know the structure of the data, like in this case, because even with Delta, what's Delta? Underlies Parquet. Well, Parquet in the footer has a bunch of statistics. So that tells us basically, what's your min-max range. What is the data types you're working with? So you can allocate memory right from the get-go in terms of how much space you need to take up in order to be able to generate your column store, to do your summaries, to do your subs, your ads, or anything else.
Denny Lee (00:58:24):
So since you have all that in place, we can simply say, "Let's build a column store vectorized engine in C++ that understands the Spark SQL syntax. So the idea that you haven't changed your Spark at all. If the query you're running because of taking a UTF, because it's hitting whatever, doesn't get the photon engine. It's okay. We'll default right back to Spark and you're good to go and Sparks pretty fast. But if we can use the photon engine, bam, we're going to go ahead and be able to hit that and we can get the results back to you significantly fast. And so for us, this is an example of what I mean by us giving you value add. And the fact is, over time the value adds are going to change. And that's actually what we want. We want an advancement of the technology and we're taking the bet that we will always be able to go ahead and advance the technology further, to make it beneficial for everybody. Then it's worthwhile for you to pay us.
Rob Collie (00:59:18):
Photon, koala, Panda, Cloud [crosstalk 00:59:25] . You know what, Tom?
Thomas Larock (00:59:26):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:27):
More data platform technologies were invented in the last year than in all of human history.
Thomas Larock (00:59:34):
That might be true. [crosstalk 00:59:37].
Rob Collie (00:59:36):
The real rate of expansion here is the number of technologies. We go decades where we have SQL and then someone comes up with OLAP and then like things like ETL come along. It's like four or five total things over the course of decades.
Thomas Larock (00:59:55):
They just get renamed.
Rob Collie (00:59:56):
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the same problems keep rearing their head, but in a new context.
Denny Lee (01:00:01):
And exactly to your point, right. Asset transactions came back and rightly so. It rightly so came back. And like I said, what did we build photon on? We're pulling the old [inaudible 01:00:14] Mary Collins store stuff that we did, dude. We're pulling back to that day.
Rob Collie (01:00:18):
So Photon is that C++ written thing.
Denny Lee (01:00:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:00:23):
Okay. And that is similar to, in a lot of ways like the VertiPaq engine that underlies power-
Denny Lee (01:00:30):
Yes. Very similar. It's in memory called start engine, dude.
Thomas Larock (01:00:35):
So I got to drop here in a couple minutes, but I want to just say the benefit of us being old, I mean experienced, is that we recognize all this stuff has already happened. So I read this article a couple of weeks ago. This guy, it was a dev ops article and he's like, "We need a new dev ops database." And I look at that. I go, "What are you talking about? You need a new dev ops database?" And he goes, "Do you know how hard it is to merge changes when you're both trying to update the same database and you have to roll this thing back?" And I'm like, "Dude, this is a problem for 40 years." It's not that you need something new. It's like, you just need a better process for how you're doing your data ops. Your data ops process is failing you and it's not because of the database part of it. It's because of how you've implemented your pipelines and things.
Thomas Larock (01:01:27):
And I just sat there shaking my head and I go, the kid that wrote this, he's like 22 years old and he's never had this issue like with Denny has. What if you want to update and delete in this Spark group of clusters. He's never had to fight through that yet. So to him, it's all new. Right? And he's like, "Oh yeah, we totally need a new thing." And now he's going to go reinvent hipster, JSON and he's going to say, "Now I've solved this." And bam, now you've got a new standard. Right. And this is why we have so many different data technologies and names.
Rob Collie (01:01:57):
Just alienated every 22 year old techie on the planet. Do you know how hard it's going to be to get someone to buy you a hazy IPA now?
Denny Lee (01:02:06):
Yeah, I do.
Thomas Larock (01:02:08):
I'm okay with that. I'm in the scotch phase right now.
Denny Lee (01:02:10):
So fair enough. Fair enough. Highland park, by the way.
Thomas Larock (01:02:14):
Yeah. I'm good. I'm good with all that. So if you're 22 and listening to this, first of all, I'd say that's just not possible.
Rob Collie (01:02:24):
Yeah. You're probably not, but hey, if you are a 22 year old listening to us, let us know.
Denny Lee (01:02:29):
Yes, please.
Rob Collie (01:02:31):
Tom wants to buy you a scotch.
Denny Lee (01:02:33):
Exactly. There you go. But also I do want to emphasize the fact that for folks that are old-school data based types, the fact is that you're listening to three of us. World school database [inaudible 01:02:48] and a lot of the, maybe not the technology itself, but a lot of the concepts, a lot of the processes are very much applicable today as they were 20 years ago. Just because you're older does not mean you can't keep up with this technology. You just have to recognize where the old processes actually are still very, very, very much in play today.
Thomas Larock (01:03:15):
I can vouch for that as I've been trying to venture more into data science. My experience as a data professional and my math background as well, has blended together to make it an easy transition where... And I'm looking, I go, this ain't new.
Denny Lee (01:03:29):
Exactly.
Thomas Larock (01:03:30):
Kind of the same thing.
Rob Collie (01:03:31):
Let's change gears for a moment because I'm getting closer to understanding what you're up to. All of this Linux world stuff, that's the world you run in these days.
Denny Lee (01:03:42):
Yeah, that's what they tell me at least.
Rob Collie (01:03:45):
For a lot of people listening, I suspect that this sounds like a completely alternate universe.
Denny Lee (01:03:52):
Fair enough.
Rob Collie (01:03:52):
A lot of people listening to this are one form or another like Power BI professionals and very, very much up to their eyeballs in the Microsoft stack, which I know isn't mutually exclusive with what you all are working on. That's one of the beauties of this brave new world. However, a lot of people don't have any experience with this even though they're doing very, very, very sophisticated work in data modeling, DAX, M. They're hardcore professionals. And yet a lot of this stuff seems like, again, like a foreign land. So where are the places where these two worlds can combine? What would be the relevance or like the earliest wave of relevance. What's the killer app for the Power BI crowd?
Denny Lee (01:04:38):
Yeah, so the Power BI crowd, what it boils down to is, whatever's your source of data. If you're talking about a traditional, like hitting a SQL server database, yeah, you can... Well, 99.9% chance you can trust it, right? There was transactional protection. The data wasn't there. You're not getting dirty reads unless you, for some reason, want them you're good to go. But what ends up happening to any Power BI user, is that you're not just asked to query data against your database anymore. You're asked to query against other stores and you're asked to query against your Data Lake. The Data Lake is the one that contains the vast majority of your data. There's no maybes here. It is the one that contains the most of your data. So the problem underlying which isn't obvious, and I'll give you just a specific example to provide context and I'll simplify.
Denny Lee (01:05:30):
Let's just pretend you've got a hundred rows of data. And then somebody decides to run an update statement. Now, in the case before Delta, how you run an update statement, let's just say the update affects, let's just say 20 many rows. You actually have to grab all 100 rows, rewrite them down, rewrite 80 of them. Take the 20 rows that you need to update, rewrite them. They're into a new table. Once you validate that it works, delete the original table, rename the new table back to the old table. And now you have the correct number of rows you want with the 20 rows as an update. So far so good. What happens if you're trying to query that at the exact same time when it's mid-flight?
Thomas Larock (01:06:21):
What happens?
Denny Lee (01:06:22):
Exactly or what happens if you are trying to go ahead and create when multiple users are trying to do the same thing, because for sake of argument, two people are trying to run the same 20 row update at the exact same time and because it's in` mid-flight, neither one knows which one is the primary. So that means the data you get, you can't trust if there's anything that's done to it. Maybe a deletion happened. And also now there's only 80 rows. Right? And they're going, "Okay, so which one is it?" Or the worst scenario. You take the hundred that you had, it fails, mid-flight. It wrote the 80 rows down into the same folder. So what you end up having when Power BI is trying to query it, it's not getting a hundred rows. First of all, it's getting a hundred of the old rows, it's getting 180. So now your numbers are completely off. And so that's the context that when you had a database the transactions, you didn't have to worry about that. So what's the value of the Data Lake, having Delta Lake?
Denny Lee (01:07:32):
That's exactly it. Having that ability to protect the data. So even if it was mid-flight writing and it failed, it doesn't matter. There's a transaction log that states very clearly, "Here are the 100 rows that you care about. And it's really the files by the way, that's in the transaction log. But let's just for sake of argument, here's the five files that have the 100 rows you care about and that's it. The only reason I'm calling that stuff out is because this is also very important for clout. So when you go ahead, whether it's Windows write DIR or Lytics you write LS, right, that's a pretty fast operation. When you run that same command, LS on a cloud object store, it's actually not a command line operation that you're used to. What it is, is actually translation to a bunch of REST API calls. And so the REST API calls basically underneath the covers is basically a distributed set of threads that go out to the different parts of the storage and return that information back to you.
Denny Lee (01:08:34):
Now for five files probably it doesn't really matter, but if you're talking about hundreds or thousands of files, just listing the files takes time. So just running the LS, isn't going to come back in seconds. It will take many seconds to minutes just to get that query back. So how Delta Lakes solves that problem, it says, okay, wait, no, it's okay. In the transaction log, here are the five or 100 files that you need. So there's never a listing. So whether it's Spark or any other system that's querying Delta Lake, the transaction logs telling you, "No, here's the five/100 whatever number of files that you actually need. Go grab them directly." Please don't forget. A cloud object store itself is not a traditional obstacle. This idea of bucketing this idea of folders. The folders don't actually exist. It's just something that you have to parse. It's just one gigantic blob of crap. That's all it is. So what happens is they actually have to basically parse the name of the files in order to return that to you and then claim there's a folder in there.
Rob Collie (01:09:36):
It's kind of like schema on read, right? We're going to give you this notion of directories, but it's created from thin air.
Denny Lee (01:09:41):
Exactly. It literally is. Yeah. So because of that, then the whole premise of saying, "Okay, well now I can return that stuff to you that much quicker." And then there're other aspects of Delta Lake, for example, like schema evolution and schema enforcement. The idea that if you've already declared that this is the schema, like as in, I've got two wins in a string column, let's just say. If you try to insert, update into that table, and it's not two string, maybe it's two [inaudible 01:10:09] strings, let's just say, it'll say, "No, I'm not going to let you do it because I'm enforcing the schema," just like a traditional database staple would. But also we allow for schema evolution, which is, if you then specify, no, no. In this case, allow for evolution, go ahead and do it. Right. So it gives you the flexibility while at the same time giving that structure.
Rob Collie (01:10:32):
It's almost like even... There's a really simple parallel here, which is like an Excel validation. You can say, "Here's the list of things you can choose from," but then there's also allow people to write in new values or no?
Denny Lee (01:10:44):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:10:46):
So there's that nature of flexibility. It's either hard enforce schema or evolvable.
Denny Lee (01:10:52):
Exactly. No. And that's exactly right. So there are many factors like that. I can go on about streaming and batch and all these other things, but the key aspect, what it boils down to, for any Power BI user, any Power BI professional is this notion that the Data Lake, without asset transactions, without things like schema force, but without inherently is an untrustworthy system for various reasons.
Rob Collie (01:11:19):
Totally. Yeah. I mean, again, this is the jaw dropping thing for me. It's like really? That's been okay ever? Even for five minutes, that was okay? It's really hard to imagine.
Denny Lee (01:11:29):
Well, I mean, the context, don't forget is because you're at the tail end of what has happened to that data. The people that made this decision were on the other end, which is, I have so much data coming into me at such a disgustingly fast rate. I just need some way to get it down. Otherwise, I will lose it.
Rob Collie (01:11:54):
Yeah. It's a real immediate problem. And earlier you very graciously grouped me in with yourself and Tom, when you said, we're all old database people, but I was never really a database person. I've always been a lot closer to the faucet than the plumbing.
Denny Lee (01:12:10):
No, fair.
Rob Collie (01:12:11):
And so for the Power BI crew that's listening, which is again, closer to the faucet, we could say, "Hey, this is not our problem. It's not actually something that most Power BI people are going to be dealing with." It's going to be an infrastructural decision made. It is very much an IT style decision as opposed to this new hybrid model of what we used to call self-service. But it's really like hybrid model of Agile business driven faucets. But if my IT organization decides that the Data Lakes that I've been using to power some of my beautiful Power BI, it might be that I've been quietly... And this is the scary part, unknowingly suffering the consequences of crunchy rights that are conflicting with one another.
Rob Collie (01:13:01):
I might've been dealing with bad data and not known it, but if my IT organization decides to roll out something like Delta Lakes, do I notice? I mean, other than the fact that I won't have bad data anymore, will I need to do anything differently?
Denny Lee (01:13:17):
No.
Rob Collie (01:13:18):
Do I need to query it differently through-
Denny Lee (01:13:20):
Nope. Nope.
Rob Collie (01:13:21):
Or is it just the people who are doing the rights that have to play ball?
Denny Lee (01:13:25):
The way I would phrase it is this way. It's the traditional Power BI reporting problem. Why you have to care, which is the problem isn't so much that you're supposed to tell infrastructure what to do. The problem is you're going to get blamed when the numbers are wrong.
Rob Collie (01:13:42):
Sure.
Denny Lee (01:13:43):
Right. And you're the first line of people that will be attacked.
Rob Collie (01:13:51):
[crosstalk 01:13:51] comes out of the faucet. Right?
Denny Lee (01:13:53):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:13:53):
I give cups of that to the rest of the team. They're going to say, "Hey, you gave me bad water."
Denny Lee (01:14:01):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:14:02):
And I'm not going to be able to talk about the plumbing that they don't see because it's all behind the wall. It's just the faucet.
Denny Lee (01:14:08):
Exactly. But at the same time, exactly to your point. When you're running that query, for example, using Spark or for that matter, anything that table will talk to Delta Lake, no. Nothing changed. The only thing that changed, which is a benefit and not a con, is if you want to go back and look at historical data, Delta Lake includes time travel as well. So-
Rob Collie (01:14:34):
Snapshots.
Denny Lee (01:14:34):
Yeah. Snapshots of the previous time. So if you want to go, you can just append, like for example, you run a smart SQL statement, which is very close to SQL tables. Select column A, B whatever from table A. So then you can basically that's what your normal Power BI source query would be. Well now, just for sake, however you want to look at the snapshots, select star column from table A version, as of whatever version you want to look at.
Rob Collie (01:15:01):
This is another old familiar problem. So for example, our Salesforce instance, it does have some history to it, but like it's not... Or let's take an even easier example, like QuickBooks. QuickBooks is almost inherently a system that's about what's true right now and to do any trending analysis against your QuickBooks data, it's hard, right? You've got to be doing snapshots somehow. And so to run our business, we have multiple line of business systems that are crucial to our business and we're pushing snapshots into, most of the time, I think Azure SQL in order for us to be able to keep track of where we're trending and all that kind of stuff. So you're talking about that Delta Lake Lake House, give me this, snapshotting against my stores. And I don't think it's just Sparks stores. Right? It's all kinds of stuff, isn't it?
Denny Lee (01:15:59):
Spark is the processing engine. Right? Sort of the query agent. Delta Lake is the storage layer, basically the storage layer on top of typically Parquet. So that's the context. So the idea is that you're basically reading the Parquet file. We have other copies of the Parquet files that allow you to basically go through the snapshot. The transaction to log tells you which files correspond to which version of the data you have.
Rob Collie (01:16:23):
So the snapshotting, the time travel thing, right, that's a benefit that I could gain and really use as a Power BI. Yeah. That would be a noticeable difference, right? Have you kept up with Power BI very much at all. I'm wondering if in your world, if I'm using Power BI and a lot of the data that I need is stored in a Denny style world rather than SQL-
Denny Lee (01:16:49):
And the SQL [inaudible 01:16:50].
Rob Collie (01:16:50):
Is your expectation that the import and cache mode of Power BI is still very much relevant in your world or would it only be considered cool if I was using direct query?
Denny Lee (01:17:01):
Oh no, no, no, no. Whether I'm using direct query, whether I'm using import, it's always going to be a product of what is your business need. For example, if SQL server suffices for everything you're doing because of the size, because whatever else, I'm the last person to tell you to go do something else. Wait, come on. We're SQL server guys. Right? So no, I'm not going to do that. That's ridiculous. Right. What I'm talking about is very much into, no, you have a Data Lake or you need one. How to get the maximum out of it. That's literally where my conversation is. In other words, for sake of argument, IT had structured it such that the results of the Data Lake go into your SQL server and then you can query your SQL server to your heart's content. Cool. I'm not saying you're supposed to go to Delta Lake directly.
Denny Lee (01:17:48):
I'm saying, whatever makes the most sense, because for example, I'm making this up scenario up obviously, but direct query would make sense, for example, if I have constant streaming data. I want to see at that point in time, what the change was from even a second ago or even a minute ago. Okay. Well, Delta Lake has transactional productions such that when the data is written at that point in time when you execute that... I'm using Spark SQL, as example, as the Spark SQL statement, we know from the transaction log what files have in fact been written. We will grab the files as at that point in time. So even if they're half-written files in there, it's not going to get included because it wasn't written. So then direct query for your Power BI to go grab that data. No problem at all. By the same token you turn off. I was like, "Yeah, but I don't need streaming. I just need to go ahead and augment my existing SQL table with another fact table or with a dimension table." Cool. Hit that.
Rob Collie (01:18:43):
Am I going to benefit from the photon engine if I'm using Power BI? Would my direct queries run faster?
Denny Lee (01:18:50):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:18:50):
... as a result?
Denny Lee (01:18:50):
And that's exactly the context, at least from a Databricks perspective, that's the whole point. You can take your Power BI queries and you can go ahead and run them directly, get your Data Lake with the same Spark SQL statements that you were originally running. Except now they're faster because they're using the photon engine.
Rob Collie (01:19:06):
Awesome. Even if I'm in import mode in Power BI, like the data refresh could also-
Denny Lee (01:19:11):
Exactly [crosstalk 01:19:12] would be significantly faster because now I can get the data to you significantly faster than before.
Rob Collie (01:19:17):
I think this has been an amazing tour of this. I would love to have you come back. Maybe we do a series, which is Denny explains it all, right? And when I say it all, I mean the domain of the Linux cool kids,
Denny Lee (01:19:33):
I thought we were going to talk about coffee.
Rob Collie (01:19:37):
Well, so I was actually... That's written down next, is espresso.
Denny Lee (01:19:41):
Good.
Rob Collie (01:19:41):
I wanted to get into that. So there's a scene in Breaking Bad where Walter White meets Gil and Gil has been like this master chemist. Gil has been working on the perfect coffee. And Walter is really obsessed about really getting into this giant lab and building and making his blue perfect mix at an industrial scale. He couldn't be more excited and yet he stops and goes, "Oh my God, this coffee, why are we making meth?"
Denny Lee (01:20:12):
Exactly. Yeah. Yes.
Thomas Larock (01:20:15):
So, yeah. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Rob Collie (01:20:18):
You seem like the Walter White that decides, "Nah, you know what, it's going to be [crosstalk 01:20:24] because I watch even your latte art game. I've watched it evolve over the years. You were in like when Casper moved to Redmond, I remember him like touching base with you and getting the official espresso, like [Kit 01:20:39] so, here I am in Indiana, I'm years behind you in the espresso game. And so we just splurged for one of the automated, like espresso and latte makers from DeLonghi or whatever. And every time I tell that thing to make me a latte and it ends up like this white foam with a vampire bite where the two spouts of espresso came into it. Every time I do that, I think about you and these works of art that are crafted with... Like you got to use the word like artisanal and handcrafted and I'm pushing a button and I'm getting this monstrosity. I just go, "Maybe Denny 15 years ago would have been okay with us. But Danny of today would be very, very, very upset."
Denny Lee (01:21:22):
That's true. I mean, I am from Seattle. So you have to admit many of us here are very OCD. So that's why I fit in very well, for starters and saying, well, you do know this is like, again, for those of you who may not know, Seattle is a very much a coffee town to put it rather lightly.
Rob Collie (01:21:42):
Anytime you have a people that live under a one mile thick cloud blanket, nine months out of the year... Overcast days, don't even talk about overcast days. Like supposedly they use this metric for cities across the U.S. like how many overcast days per year? But they do not grade the overcast days by intensity. Right? And so supposedly like Cleveland has like as many overcast days, whatever is Seattle. No, no. That is bullshit when you're on the ground. So yeah, when you live under that oppressive blanket, you're going to need as much caffeine as you can lay hands on. And this is why Seattle is a [crosstalk 01:22:19].
Denny Lee (01:22:19):
Oh, yeah. Well that and also don't forget, we are also known for being a rainy city, but actually there are sections in Nevada that actually received more rain than us.
Rob Collie (01:22:28):
Well, in terms of inches of rain. Again, like I grew up in Orlando, there's more rain there too. Right. It's just that in Seattle, it falls in a constant mist forever.
Denny Lee (01:22:37):
But don't forget. That's why people like me love it because you got a Gore-Tex jacket, eh, whatever. We don't care, we just don't care. But back to the coffee thing, because you know, I'm going to OCD on you. Yes. I'm glad to, at any point in time, dive into all the particulars.
Rob Collie (01:22:58):
We want to have you back on for sure. And we're going to make time to talk about your coffee... What am I going to call it? Like your rig? We need to talk about what your set up is like we're talking to The Edge from U2 about his guitar affects, right? We need to know.
Denny Lee (01:23:16):
You got it, dude. You know full well it'll be pretty easy to convince me to talk about data or coffee. So that's what we're going to do.
Rob Collie (01:23:24):
Seriously. If you're open to it, I'd love to do this together because there's so many things we talked about that we didn't have a chance to like really explore.
Denny Lee (01:23:30):
We left the wording about dynamic structured cache. I still haven't addressed that. The reason why I'm saying I agree with structures because that's the whole point. The data that comes in may not be structured, but just to your point, when I want to create, when I want to make sense, I want to see those rectangles. I don't want to see a bunch of circles, stars, triangles. I need those rectangles so I can actually do something with that data. That's what it boils down to. Whether it's Coriant processing ETL, machine learning. I don't care. I just need to be able to do some of that. There has to be a structure to that data first before I can do anything with it. So the structure agree. The reason I'm saying cache, I don't agree with completely is because the point is, cache is meant as when you hit a final state and you're trying to improve performance.
Denny Lee (01:24:20):
This is where cache is actually extremely beneficial. I'm not against caches, by the way, I'm just saying, but the reason why I'm saying it can't be a cache is because you're going to do something with that data from its original state to getting to a structured state. And then in fact, you may go ahead and do more things, standard part of ETL process. If you still remember our old data warehousing days where we have the old TP transactional database that goes into a staging database that goes into data warehouse before it goes into [NOLA 01:24:49] queue, right? It's analogous to this concept of data quality, right? The data is dirtier in the bating, or at least not structured the way for purpose of analysis at the beginning and overtime from [inaudible 01:25:01] TP to staging to data warehousing, it gets closer to a format or structure that is beneficial for people to query and to ask questions, right?
Denny Lee (01:25:09):
The same thing for a Data Lake. Often we talk about it as the Delta medallion architecture, but it's a data quality framework. The bronze silver gold concept. Bronze is when the data is garbage in garbage out silver's when I do the augmentation and transformation of it, gold is when it's proper feature engineering for machine learning or aggregate format for BI queries. Okay. But irrelevant of how I define or what wording I use, that's how to cache. I have to put that data down in state for the same reason I had to do it with LTP staging data, where I was the biggest. How about if there had to be a change upstream? If there's a change to the [LTP 01:25:44] database, I need to reflect that to staging and data warehousing. If I don't have the original LTP data, I can't go ahead and reflect that into the staging and data warehousing.
Denny Lee (01:25:52):
If I need to change the business logic, I need to go back to the original TP source so I can change it downstream into your staging, into your data warehouse. Same concept with the Data Lake. I'm going to need to go back to the original data based on new business requirements and reflect that change. So that's why it's not a cache because I need it stateful so I can do something with it. Ultimately, you want to make sure as the Power BI pro, the data that you're showing to your end users is as correct as you could possibly be. So whether it's technology or process, you're going to need both to ensure that, and this is what we've been discussing today is the ability for your Data Lakes to have that now.
Rob Collie (01:26:40):
All right, this is so good. I'm glad we had this [inaudible 01:26:43] I'm glad we made the time. Thank you so much.
Denny Lee (01:26:44):
Thanks buddy.
Announcer (01:26:45):
Thanks for listening to The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
It's not every day that you can hear a great conversation with the Head of Product of Excel. Brian Jones sits down with us and talks about the past, present, and very promising future of Excel. Rob and Brian go way back, and the stories and laughs abound! Check out this cool World Orca Day Excel template for kids! Episode Timeline: * 4:00 - Brian's lofty title is Head of Product at Excel, The importance and magic of Excel, and people's a-ha moments with Excel * 20:25 - The difficulty of not seeing your projects' impact on the world and how the heck does Bluetooth fit into the story?!, Rob and Brian reminisce with some funny conference stories * 32:00 - The XML file format and some very neat XML tricks that everyone should know about * 51:25 - The birth of the Excel Web App and Rob can't believe some of the things that Brian's team has done with Excel * 1:05:00 - How to onboard the Excel, VLOOKUP, and Pivot crowd into data modeling and Power BI, and the future of Excel most certainly includes the Lambda function (maybe!)
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today's guest, Brian Jones, head of product for this thing you might've heard of called Microsoft Excel. Brian and I go back a long way. We were both youngsters at Microsoft at the same time, and we both worked on some early features of Office apps, and we're friends. Really, really have sincerely warm feelings about this guy, as you often do with people that you essentially grew up with. And that's what we did. When Brian and I first worked together, he was working on Word and I was working on Excel. But even though Brian was on Word at the time, he was already working on what we would today call citizen developer type of functionality in the Word application. So even though we were essentially on different sides of the aisle within the Office organization, we were already finding ourselves able to connect over this affinity for the citizen developer.
Rob Collie (00:00:55):
Now we have some laughs during this conversation about how in hindsight, the things he and I were working on at the time didn't turn out to be as significant as we thought they were in the moment. But those experiences were very valuable in shaping both of us for the initiatives that came later.
Rob Collie (00:01:11):
Like almost everyone at Microsoft, Brian has moved around a bit. He's worked on file formats for the entire Office suite, which ended up enabling Power Pivot version one to actually function the way that it should. He's worked on Office-wide extensibility and programmability, back to that citizen developer thing again. And in that light, it's only natural that Excel's gravity reeled him in. And in that light, it's only natural that someone like that, someone like Brian, found his way to Excel, and it really is a match made in heaven. And if you permit me the Excel joke, that turned out to be a great match.
Rob Collie (00:01:50):
We took the obligatory and entertaining, I hope, walk down memory lane. We spent a lot more time than I expected talking about file format. And the reason why is that file formats are actually a fascinating topic when you really get into it. Lot of history there, a lot of very interesting history and challenges we walked through. And of course, we do get around to talking about Excel, its current state, where it's headed, and also the amazing revelation for me that monthly releases actually mean a longer attention span for a product and how we ended up getting functionality now as a result of the monthly release cycle that would have never fit into the old multi-year release cycle. We were super grateful to have him on the show. And as usual, we learned things. I learned things. I have a different view of the world after having this conversation than I did before it, which is a huge gift. And I hope that you get the same sort of thing out of it. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:56):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:03:03):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host Rob Collie and your cohost Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:03:26):
Welcome to the show. Brian Jones, how are you, sir?
Brian Jones (00:03:30):
I am fantastic. Thank you for having me, Rob. I'm excited.
Rob Collie (00:03:33):
So let's start here today. Well, you and I go way back, but today, what's your job title and what are your responsibilities?
Brian Jones (00:03:42):
So today, my job is I'm the head of product for the Excel team. So I lead the team of product managers that are tasked with or given the honor of deciding the future of Excel, where we go with Excel, what are the set of things that we go and build
Rob Collie (00:03:59):
Head of product. That's a title that we didn't have back when I was still at Microsoft. We did at one point have something called a product unit manager. Is it similar to that? How does that relate?
Brian Jones (00:04:11):
That's a good question. So we're continuing to evolve the way that we use titles internally. So internally, we have titles that still for most folks externally don't make any sense, like program manager, group program manager, program manager manager, director of program manager. And so for externally, whenever I'm on LinkedIn or if I do PR interviews, things like that, I use the term head of product. Internally, we don't have the term head of product.
Rob Collie (00:04:37):
Okay. All right. So that's a translation for us.
Brian Jones (00:04:40):
Yes, exactly. Trying to translate the Microsoft internal org chart to something that makes more sense to folks.
Rob Collie (00:04:49):
Yeah. So things like, if we use the word orthogonal, what we're really saying is that's not relevant.
Brian Jones (00:04:53):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:04:54):
That kind of decoder ring.
Brian Jones (00:04:57):
I didn't realize orthogonal [inaudible 00:04:59] until you said it and I'm like, " Oh yeah, no. Of course, that is completely a ridiculous term to use."
Rob Collie (00:05:03):
Or I don't know if they still do this, but an old joke that Dave [Gayner 00:05:07] and I used to have, it was all his joke at the time. It was big bet. Do we still talk about big bet? We're going to place a big bet.
Brian Jones (00:05:14):
Yep. Big bet or big rocks. Big rocks. You know the-
Rob Collie (00:05:17):
Big rocks. Whoa.
Brian Jones (00:05:18):
Yeah. It's kind of an analogy. You've got a jar and you want to fill it with the big rocks first, and then you let the sand fill in the rest of the space. So what are the big rocks?
Rob Collie (00:05:26):
Okay. Yeah. But big bet was one that we used to always make fun of.
Brian Jones (00:05:31):
Especially when there'd be, "Here are the big bets," and there's 20 of them.
Rob Collie (00:05:34):
Yeah. The joke I think we used to make was we would call something a big bet when we really didn't have any good reason for doing what we were doing. Anyway, all right. So you're head of product for Excel. That is a pretty heady job. That's pretty awesome.
Brian Jones (00:05:52):
It's a pretty fun job. Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:05:54):
I mean, you're not lacking for eyeballs in that business, are you? We're all friends here. We're all on the same side of this story. I mean, it is the lingua franca of business, Excel. It is the business programming tool. People don't necessarily think of it as programming, but formulas are a programming language. To be head of product for the platform, you could call it an application, but really it's probably more accurate to call it a platform that is, I think, is the single most critical platform to business in the world. That's pretty amazing.
Brian Jones (00:06:30):
Absolutely. And that's usually the way that we talk about it internally. It depends on who your audience is externally when you're talking about it. But yeah, Excel is a programming language. I remember even before, back when I was on the Word team, but I would go and meet with PJ, who ran program manager for Office all up. And he'd always referred to Excel more as an IDE. And that didn't totally resonate with me at the time because to me, Excel was just a list app, an app for just tracking things. I didn't totally understand what he meant by that, but I'd nod cause he was super important and smart. And it wasn't really until I started working on the team that I was like, "Oh, I totally understand all these things that PJ used to reference."
Rob Collie (00:07:06):
This one of the things I had been dying to ask you is when you and I first met, I was working on the Excel team, but still had... Gosh, this was year 2000 maybe, maybe 2001. And even though I was nominally part of the Excel team at that point, I still didn't really know Excel, and you were working on Word. So the thing we both had in common at that point is that we didn't know Excel. So I wanted to get your perspective. I know that you've done some things other than Word, but we were already sort of teasing this. So let's just get into it. What's it like to come from "outside" Excel and how's that transition? How do you view Excel differently today versus what you did before? We already started talking about that. The list keeper. That's very common way for people to view it.
Brian Jones (00:07:53):
When I first started, yeah, I was on Word, although I was working on more kind of end user developer type of pieces of Word. That's how you and I first interacted because we were talking about XML. The first feature I owned was a feature called easy data binding to Excel. And the whole idea was when you could easily bring content from Excel into Word, but then create a link back so that the content in Word would stay live. And a lot of this stuff that I did while I was on Word was all about trying to make Word a little bit more of a structured tool so that people could actually program against it because Word is completely unstructured. It's just free-flowing text. So trying to write a solution against that is almost impossible because you can't predict anything. So we did a lot of work to add structure, whereas Excel out of the gate has all that structure. So it's just much easier to go and program.
Brian Jones (00:08:39):
If I had gone straight from Word to Excel, it would have been a little bit more of a shock, but I actually had about eight years in between where I was running our extensibility team. So a lot of the work we would do was revving the add-in model and extensibility for Excel. So I got some exposure there. When we did all of the file format stuff and the whole file format campaign, That was a couple of years where I was working really closely with a bunch of folks in Excel, like Dan [Badigan 00:09:06] and folks like that. So I had a bit of exposure, but I'll tell you when I first joined, I had a similar job, but it was for the Access team and we were building up some new tech.
Brian Jones (00:09:17):
Some of it still is there today. Office Forms came out of some of the investments that we were doing in Access. But when I showed up into Excel, I was very much in that mode of, "Why don't the Excel folks, get it? Everything should be a table with column headings." And like, "That's the model. And why do they stick with this grid? Clearly word of it is eventually going to go away from the printed page as the key medium. Excel's got to go away from the grid. And they've got to understand that this should just be all tables that can be related." And thankfully, I was responsible when I joined and didn't try and act like I knew everything. So I took some time to go and learn.
Brian Jones (00:09:52):
And it didn't take me long. We have some crazy financial modeling experts on the team and stuff like that, where I'd say it was maybe six months in that it clicked for me where I understood those two key pieces. The grid and formulas are really the soul and the IP of Excel. The fact that you can lay out information really easily on a grid, you have formulas that are your logic, and you can do this step-by-step set of processes where each cell is almost like another little debug point for you. [Cal captain sub 00:10:20] second, and it's the easiest way to go and learn logic and how to build logic.
Brian Jones (00:10:25):
I didn't get any of that at that time, but you pick it up pretty quickly when you start to look at all the solutions that people are building. And now, obviously, I've been on the team now for five years, so I'm super sold around it. But I'd say it took me a little while and I'm still learning. It takes a while to learn the whole thing.
Rob Collie (00:10:41):
Yeah. It's funny. Like you said, Word's completely unstructured. You're looking in from the outside and you're like, "Well, Excel is completely structured." Then you get close to it. You're like, "Oh no. And it's not, really."
Brian Jones (00:10:52):
No. Not at all.
Rob Collie (00:10:53):
I mean, it's got the cells. Rows and columns. You can't avoid those. But within that landscape, is it kind of deliberately wild west? You can do whatever you need to. You're right. Okay. So tables, yes. Tables are still very important. But you've got these parameters and assumptions and inputs. And what do you do with those? I mean, they're not make a table for those.
Brian Jones (00:11:19):
Yep. Absolutely. I think that the thing that I started to get really quickly was the beauty of that. Like you said, it's unstructured. You have nice reference points. So if you're trying to build logic, formulas, you can reference things. But there's no rule about whether or not things go horizontally, vertically, diagonally, whatever. You can take whatever's in your mind that you're trying to make a decision around and use that flexible grid to lay it out. It's like a mind map. If you think about the beauty, the flexibility of a mind map, that's what the grid is. You can go and lay out all the information however it makes the most sense to you.
Brian Jones (00:11:53):
Really, that's what makes Excel still so relevant today. If you think about the way business is evolving, people are getting more and more data, change is just more constant, business processes are changing all the time. So there are certain processes where people can say, "This thing is always going to work the same way." And so you can go and get a vertical railed solution. That's why we use the term rail. That's kind of like if I always know I'm going to take this cargo from LA to San Francisco, I can go and build some rails, and I got a train, it'll always go there and do the same thing. But if business is constantly changing, those rails are quickly going to break and you're going to have to go off the rails. Excel is more like a car than a train. You can go anywhere with it. And so as the business processes change, the people who are using Excel are the same people who are the ones changing those business processes. Those are the business folks. And so they can go and evolve and adapt it and they don't have to go and find another ISV to go and build them another solution based on that new process that's probably going to change again in six months.
Thomas Larock (00:12:52):
So Brian's been in charge for five years of Excel, and he's sitting there telling us how there's still more to learn. And two weeks ago, we all got renewed as MVPs. And so I was on the MVP website, and I'm going through all the DLs I can join because that's all a manual process these days. I'm like, "Oh, there's the Excel MVP DL. I don't know why I haven't joined this yet." So I click. I'm immediately flooded with 100 emails a day. 100 emails a day. Now, I don't believe I am a novice when it comes to Excel. I don't. I know I'm not on you all's level at all when it comes to it. You build and work and live the product. But I know my way around enough that I can explain things to others when they say, "I'm trying to do this thing." "Oh, I think it's possible."
Thomas Larock (00:13:40):
But I read these passionate MVPs that you have and the stuff that they highlight, and it's not complex stuff. It's like, "Hey, this title bar seems to be wider in this." And I'm like, I might not even notice this stuff. And I see these features that aren't a complex feature, but I'm like, "I didn't even know that was there. I didn't even know you could do that. Oh, you can do that too." There's so much. And like you said, it's a programming language. It's an IDE. It's all these things. As [Sinopski 00:14:10] said, "It's the killer app for Windows." To have the head of product say that, there's just so much. He really means it. There is a lot to it. And it is something that is malleable and usable by hundreds of millions of people a day.
Brian Jones (00:14:25):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:26):
My old joke is, if you want to know how good someone is at Excel, just ask them, "How good are you at Excel?" And then take their answer and invert it.
Brian Jones (00:14:37):
That's absolutely true.
Rob Collie (00:14:38):
If someone says, "Yeah, I'm really good at it," You know they don't have any clue because they haven't glimpsed the depth of that particular mine shaft. And once someone has been to the show, they know better than to oversell their knowledge because they know they can't know everything.
Rob Collie (00:14:54):
You say you're good at Excel. And then the very next question is one that you're not going to be able to answer. So you got to be careful. [inaudible 00:15:00] person views Excel as Word with a grid. And that's not obviously what it is, but that's the oversimplification for... I don't know... maybe 80% of humanity.
Brian Jones (00:15:10):
Yeah. And the thing is, there's a lot more that we're doing in the app now to try and make it, one, more approachable, because there's a set of folks that just find it really intimidating, for sure. You open it up and it's this huge, dense grid. Like, "Hey, where do I start? What should I go and do? I've never even heard of this thing before." In the past, a lot of stuff that we would do, we never really thought about those first steps of using the app because we were always like, "Well, everybody knows our app. We're going to go and do the things for everybody that knows our app." And I think we're doing a better job now trying to think, "Well, there's a bunch of people who don't know about our app. Let's go and figure out what the experience should be like for them."
Brian Jones (00:15:43):
But we've done a lot with AI where we're trying to get a little bit better about... We look at your data. Recommend things to you. So we'll say, "If you've got a table of data, hey, here's a pivot table." You may not have even heard of the pivot table before. So really more like, "Hey, here's a summary of your data." You want to go and insert that.
Brian Jones (00:16:00):
In fact, those tests are always fun because then we get to work with people who've really haven't ever used a pivot table. So it's always fun to hear the words that they use to describe what a pivot table is. It's like, "Oh wow, you grouped my data for me." Or stuff like that like, "Wow. That's a nice name for it too." So we're trying to do more of that to expose people to really those higher-end things. But those things where for those of us that use it, once you discover that stuff, you're even more hooked on the product. You're like, man, that first experience of somebody built a pivot table for you and you realize, "Oh my God, I didn't know I could do this with my data. Look how much easier it is for me to see what's going on," and trying to get more people to experience that kind of magical moment.
Thomas Larock (00:16:39):
Now imagine being me and only knowing pivot through T-SQL and that magical day when you meet Rob and he's like, "You just pivot table [inaudible 00:16:49]." And you're like, "How many hours have I wasted? Why didn't someone tell me?"
Brian Jones (00:16:56):
Yeah. We get that a lot when we'll go and show stuff. Oftentimes, the reaction is more frustration. "I can't believe I didn't know about this for the past five years."
Rob Collie (00:17:05):
We get that all the time now with Power Pivot and Power Query and Power BI in general. The target audience for that stuff hasn't been really effectively addressed by Microsoft marketing. But even back, just regular pivot tables, such a powerful tool, and so poorly named. You weren't around on the Excel team, Brian, when I waged a six-month campaign to try to rename pivot table to summary table.
Brian Jones (00:17:31):
Oh really?
Rob Collie (00:17:31):
Yeah.
Brian Jones (00:17:31):
How long ago was that?
Rob Collie (00:17:33):
Oh, well, it was a long time ago. I mean [crosstalk 00:17:35]-
Brian Jones (00:17:36):
Pivot tables had already been out for quite a while.
Rob Collie (00:17:37):
Oh God. Yeah. I mean, they were long established. They were in the product. I didn't even know what they did. Believe it or not, I worked on the Excel team for probably about a year before I actually figured what pivot tables could do. People would just throw it around all the time on the team like, "Well, once you have the data, then you can chart it. You can pivot it," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I would fit in-
Brian Jones (00:17:58):
You would nod?
Rob Collie (00:17:59):
I would fit in... I would also author sentences like that, that had the word pivot in it. It was a pretty safe thing to do. There was no downside to it. But believe it or not, the time that I discovered what pivot tables are for... you'll love this... I was trying to figure out how to skill balance the four different fantasy football leagues that I had organized within the Excel and Access team. I wanted to spread it out. Levels of experience. I've got this table of data with the person's name and their level of experience and my tentative league assignment. And just this light bulb went on. I'm like, "Oh my God, I bet this is what pivot tables are for." Total expertise by league. Like, "Oh, look at that. It's totally it." That was a big change for me. That was during the release, Brian, where you and I were working together.
Brian Jones (00:18:54):
I think I played on one of those fantasy football leagues.
Rob Collie (00:18:56):
You might have.
Brian Jones (00:18:57):
I was one of the people with zero experience. I remember going into the draft not knowing... I knew football, but I didn't know anything about fantasy football.
Rob Collie (00:19:03):
That's right. We did loop you in. So let's do that way back machine for a moment. That release when you and I met was the first release on Excel. I was the lead at that point. It was my first time being a lead. It was the first time I was in charge of a feature set, and it was really my baby, this XML thing we were doing. And the reason for that was because no one was paying any attention. That was this weird release. For a whole release, Office went and tried to do cloud services without having any idea what that really was going to mean. And so we stripped all of the applications down to skeleton crews. And this is really the only reason why on the Excel side, some youngster like me was allowed to be a lead and come up with a feature, because no one cared. No one was paying any attention. There was no one minding the store.
Rob Collie (00:19:48):
I remember being so wild-eyed enthusiastic about how much this was going to change the world, this XML import export future. And I mean, you might as well just take it out. I can't imagine it's being used hardly at all today. I bet Power View is used more often than the XML import export feature. You all have done a pretty good job of hiding it. So kudos. But it was a good thing to cut my teeth on. I learned a lot of valuable lessons on that release.
Rob Collie (00:20:24):
How do you feel about the XML structure document work that you were doing in Word at the time? Do you kind of have the same feeling looking back at it that I do?
Brian Jones (00:20:33):
It was a similar thing. In fact, we did rip it out a couple of years later. I think that when you and I would talk about it, we would talk about these scenarios that were super righteous and great. And then we just start geeking out on tech. And then we would get way too excited about the tech and we kind of forget about those initial scenarios. We wouldn't stop and think, "Wait a minute. These users we're talking about, are they actually going to go and create XML files?" Because you need one of those to start with before any of this stuff makes sense. And no, of course, they're not. But for me, a lot of it started from that. Like I said, one of my first features was that easy data binding to Excel feature. And we thought, "Hey, maybe XML would be a good tech for us to use as a way of having Word and Excel talk to each other," because clearly they have different views on what formatting is and how to present information, but the underlying semantic information, that could be shared.
Brian Jones (00:21:20):
And so I could have a set of products show up in Excel as a table. And when they come into Word, they look more like a catalog of products. That totally makes sense. And we just did a lot of assumptions that people would make, do all the glue that was really necessary. And of course, they didn't. So I had the exact same experience. The other big thing that was different back then for us was we would plan something, meet with customers for six months, but then it'd take three years to go and build it. We had no way of validating that stuff with customers because we couldn't get them any of the builds. And then even after we shipped it, they weren't actually going to deploy it for another three-plus years. And so the reality is from when you had the idea to where you actually can see that it's actually not working and people aren't using it is probably about six years. So you've probably moved on to something else by then.
Brian Jones (00:22:04):
The only way you really as a PM got validation that your feature was great was whether or not leadership and maybe press got excited about your thing, but you didn't get a whole lot of signal from actual customers whether or not the thing was working, which is obviously completely different now, thank goodness.
Rob Collie (00:22:18):
Yeah. That Is true. It took some of the fun out of being done too, now looking back at it, like the day of the ship party, when we were done with the three-year release. "Okay, fine." We'd dunk each other in fountains and there'd be hijinks and stuff. But the world did not experience us being done. That was purely just us feeling done. And then it was like you take a week off maybe, and then the next week, you're right back to the grind at the very beginning. You never got the payoff. Even if you built something really good, by the time the world discovered it and it was actually really helping people at any significant scale, you're no longer even working on that product.
Brian Jones (00:22:57):
Yeah. You're doing something completely different.
Rob Collie (00:22:59):
You might be in a different division, both finding out the things in real time that
Rob Collie (00:23:03):
[inaudible 00:23:00] Both finding out the things, sort of in real time, that aren't working. That's the obvious advantage, right? But there's also this other emotional thing. Like you never got the satisfaction when you actually did succeed.
Brian Jones (00:23:11):
Right. You didn't see it actually get picked up, adopted. Millions and millions of people using it, which is what the team gets now. We no longer pick a project and say, "Okay, how many people and how long is this going to take?" You really just try and figure out what's critical mass for that project. And then you just let them run. And you'd be really clear around what are the goals and outcomes they're trying to drive. And they just keep going until they actually achieve that. Or we realized that we were wrong, right? And we say, "Hey, we thought people are going to be excited about this. It's not even an implementation thing. We were just wrong. We misread what people really were trying to do. Let's stop. Let's kind of figure out a way of moving off of that and go and figure out what the next thing is we should go and do."
Rob Collie (00:23:50):
That era that we're talking about right now. The 2003 release of Office. I was still very much a computer science graduate and amateur human. That's exactly backwards, it turns out, if you're trying to design a tool that's going to be used by humanity.
Brian Jones (00:24:08):
Well, it's what leads you to get really Excited about XML?
Rob Collie (00:24:12):
That's right. Yeah. That's right. Tech used to have such a power in my life. I'm exactly the opposite now. Every time I hear about some new tech, I'm like, "Yeah, prove it." I am not going to believe in this new radical thing until it actually changes the world around me. I'm not going to be trying to catch that wave. But XML did that to me. It was almost a threat. If we don't take this seriously, we're going to get outflanked. It got really egregious.
Rob Collie (00:24:42):
I had a coworker one time in that same release in the middle of one of my presentations asked me. This guy wasn't particularly, in the final analysis, looking back, not one of the stronger members of the team, but he had a lot of sibling rivalry essentially in his DNA. And he'd asked me in front of his crowded room, "Well, what are you going to do about Bluetooth?" And, we didn't know what Bluetooth was yet, right? It was like, unless I had an answer for what we were going to do about Bluetooth and Excel, right? Then I was not up on things. You know, the thing that we use to connect our headphones. At the time, Bluetooth was one of those things that might just disrupt everything.
Brian Jones (00:25:29):
It was funny. It was at that same time, I was asked to give a presentation to the Word team about Bluetooth. We were all assigned things to go and research as part of planning and that was one of the ones I was asked. And I gave a presentation that was just very factual. Here's what it is. And I was given really bad feedback that like, "Hey, I wasn't actually talking about it strategically and how it was going to affect Word. I was just being very factual." And I was like, "I don't understand. I don't understand what success looks like in this task." Right.
Rob Collie (00:25:59):
I remember going, a couple of years later, going into an offsite, those offsite big, I don't know if you all still do those things, big offsite, blue sky brainstorming sessions. There was this really senior development lead that was there with me. And he and I were kind of buddies. At one point, halfway through the day, he just leans over to me and says, "Hey, I'm going to the restroom and I'm not coming back." And I looked at him in horror, almost like "Thou dost dishonor the offsite!?" And he's like, "Yeah, you know, I've never really believed that much in this particular phase of the product cycle. It's never really meant anything to me. It's all just BS." It was just devastating. I just knew it was right. He was...
Brian Jones (00:26:46):
But you didn't want to, you didn't want to believe that.
Rob Collie (00:26:52):
I mean, I felt so special. I was invited to the offsite, the big wigs and everything.
Brian Jones (00:26:57):
They have nice catering too,
Rob Collie (00:26:59):
Yeah and he was totally right to leave.
Brian Jones (00:27:04):
I always remember getting super nervous to present stuff for those. Once it was actually, it was one of our XML ones where I was trying to convince, it was my attempt to get us to create an XML file format, which actually ended up, obviously, happening. But I got an engineer to go to work with and we had Word through an add-in, start to write to XML. And it was just a basic XML format. And then I built all of these... it was like asp.net tools that would go and then create an HTML version of the Word doc that was editable. And it also even created, I think it was called WHAP, I don't remember, like a tech for phones. It was back when you didn't have the rich feature phones, but these basic ones.
Brian Jones (00:27:41):
And so I created this thing that was almost like a SharePoint site. So you could take all your Word docs, go through this add-in, and then you could actually get an HTML view of them to edit it and a phone view of them to go and edit it.
Brian Jones (00:27:51):
I think it was probably 2002 or 2001, but I was so excited to go and show that at the offsite because I was like, "Okay, this is where I make it, man. Everybody's going to be so excited about me." But I don't know. I think everybody was excited about Bluetooth at that point or something. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:28:05):
Oh yeah Bluetooth, WHAP was so 15 minutes ago. So there's a few, irresistibly funny or interesting things I want to zero in on from that era before we come back to present, and we're definitely going to come back to present, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:28:21):
First of all, we went to a conference like some W3C sponsor. I don't think it was necessarily W3C affiliated, but it was the XML conference.
Brian Jones (00:28:31):
The one in Baltimore?
Rob Collie (00:28:32):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:28:33):
Okay. Now two very, very, very memorable things happened at that conference. I bet you already know one of them. But the other one was, and we're just going to make this all this anonymous person's fault. Okay. We're not going to abdicate any responsibility. And we're just going to talk about our one coworker from Eastern Europe who brought his wife and they had vodka in their hotel fridge, or freezer, or something like that. And every day I would wake up and say, "I am not going to get suckered into that again."
Rob Collie (00:29:12):
And then the next day I would wake up and say the same thing. That was a tough trip.
Brian Jones (00:29:16):
I definitely remember that.
Rob Collie (00:29:18):
Even on my young, relatively young, body at the time that... Trying to keep up with that, that was difficult. But the single most outstanding memory from that conference, and we will also leave this person anonymous. But there was an executive at Microsoft who was hotter on XML than either you or I, which is hard to believe, right. And we ended up with the sponsored after hours session at this conference. You remember this? You see...
Brian Jones (00:29:45):
I do.
Rob Collie (00:29:46):
You know where we're going. Okay. So this was a 30 minute sponsored by Dell or something. Right. It was a 30 minute session, at 5:00 PM, at the end of a conference day where everyone's trying to go back and get to the bars or whatever, right.? But, it's a Microsoft executive, it's Dell sponsored, we'll show up. And the plan was at the end of this 30 minute talk given by this executive, he was going to bring all of us up on the stage to show everyone the team that had done all of this, right? Great plan. Except it was the worst presentation in history. I remember it running for two hours. It was so bad that we started off with 200 people in the room and at the end of it, and I'm just like an agony the whole time cause like I'm associated with this, right?
Rob Collie (00:30:31):
At the end of these two hours, or what felt like two hours anyway, it was easily 90 minutes. There's five people left in this room of 200 and it's not like the presentation is adapted to the fact that it's a smaller audience. It's just continued to drone on exactly as if everyone was there, right? And I'm sitting here thinking, "Okay, he's not going to call us all up on this stage. There's been more people on the stage than in the audience. If he does this, he's clearly not going to do that." And then he did and we all had to parade up there and stand there like the biggest dodos. I've never been more professionally embarrassed I don't think, than that moment.
Rob Collie (00:31:14):
And we're all looking at each other as we get up out of our seats like, "Oh my god."
Brian Jones (00:31:19):
I definitely remember this.
Rob Collie (00:31:22):
I don't see how you could have forgotten.
Brian Jones (00:31:23):
Well, yeah. And the person that we're talking about is actually one of my favorite people on the planet. I totally... I love this guy. I view him as like a mentor and everything, but... Which makes me remember it even more.
Brian Jones (00:31:34):
I think it was just, there was so much excitement. There'd been so much build up to this and this was like a kind of crescendo right? Of bringing this stuff. We probably should have had it a little bit shorter.
Rob Collie (00:31:46):
I mean when it reaches the point where clueless, mid twenties, Rob Collie is going, "Oh no, this is not the emotional, this not the move." You don't do it.
Brian Jones (00:31:58):
I'm no longer excited about being called up.
Rob Collie (00:32:04):
So from my perspective, you kind of parlayed that experience of the XML and all that kind of stuff. I think you did a really fantastic job of everything you guys did on that product. Again, it was the relevance that ultimately fell flat for both of us right. I guess in the end, the excitement with XML wasn't really all that appreciably different from the excitement about Bluetooth. I mean, it's everywhere, right? XML is everywhere. Bluetooth is everywhere and neither one of them really changed things in terms of what Excel or Word should be doing. It seemed like you played that into this file format second act. And I think very, very, very effectively, actually there was a little bit of controversy.
Rob Collie (00:32:43):
Let's set the stage for people. This was the 2007 release of Office where all the file formats got radically overhauled. This is when the extra X appeared on the end of all the file names, right?
Brian Jones (00:32:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:32:58):
There was a controversy internally. Kind of starting with Bill actually. That we shouldn't make well-documented transparent file format specs, right. There was this belief that the opaque file formats of the previous decades was in some sense, some big moat against competition. And of course, a lot of our competitors agreed. Tailor out in the public saying, "Yes, this is a barrier to competition. It's a monopolistic, blah, blah, blah." We, Microsoft had just gotten its ass kicked in the Anna Truss case. So it was really interesting. I credit Brian, your crew, with really advocating this very effectively. That's a difficult ship to turn. First of all, you got all these teams to buy into all this extra work, which no one wants to do. But when it's not even clear whether you have top level executive support, in fact, you might actually have C-suite antagonism towards an idea. To get it done. That's a career making achievement. I'm sure you remember all of that. Right. But what are your reactions to that controversy? Do you remember being in the midst of that?
Brian Jones (00:34:12):
I do. It was definitely a long running project. It evolved over quite a number of years. The beginning of it was, in that previous release, the XML stuff you and I were talking about was more about what we called "Custom XML". Right? So people would go and create for themselves. But in that same release, we had Word, we outputted an XML format that was our definition, which we called "Word ML" and Excel did a similar thing. Words' we try to make full fidelity. So you could save any word document in the XML format. Excel's was kind of a tailored down, it was less about formatting, it was more, "Hey, here's like..." It's almost like, "Here's a better version of CSV, right. But we're going to do it as XML." And so we already had a little bit of that.
Brian Jones (00:34:53):
And the whole reason we were looking at that was, on the Word side, for instance, a lot of the customer issues that we'd get where people would have corrupt files, they were corrupt because they there'd be some add-in that they had running or some third party app that was reading and writing word files. The files were fairly brittle and complex. The binary format... The binary format was written back in the days of floppy disks, right? So the top priority was how quickly can you write to a floppy disk and read from a floppy disc, right? It wasn't about, how easy is this for other people to go and read and write? Not because it was on purpose, make it hard. It was just the primary bid is let's get this thing so it's really easy to read and write from floppy, right?
Brian Jones (00:35:31):
And so in Word, we were like, "Wow, I think that there's a bigger opportunity here for an ecosystem around Word if we make it easy for people to read and write Word docs and build solutions around them." And so then the next release, the Excel team was looking at doing some big changes around a lot of the limitations, like how many rows you could have in columns, right. Lengths of like formulas and things like that. Right. And so there was this thing where the Excel team was like, "We are going to need to create a new file format." And on the word side, we thought this XML thing was great. We want to move to that as our new format.
Brian Jones (00:36:01):
And so everything kind of came together and it was clear. Hey, this is going to be the release that we are going to go and rev our file format, which we hadn't done in a while. This is also the release of the ribbon. So there were two really big major changes in that product, right? It was the new file format and the ribbon. It's funny. I still refer to it as the new file format, even though it's 15 years old.
Rob Collie (00:36:23):
Yeah. It's the new file format it's still new, yeah.
Brian Jones (00:36:25):
I still call it that, which is kind of nuts. But I think that the controversies you were talking about was really more of a... Boy, this is a really big deal for the product. We had changed file formats before in the past and not necessarily gotten it right. And there were a lot of challenges around compatibility and stuff. And so there was just a lot of worry of let's make sure you all have your stuff together here, right? Like let's make sure that this doesn't in any way break, stop people from wanting to upgrade to the new version. But it went really well. The whole goal of it was let's get something that we think third parties can go and read and write, and this is going to help build an ecosystem. And a new ecosystem run Office. Office already had big ecosystem with VBA and COMM add-ons and stuff like that, right.? But we won't have this new ecosystem around our file formats as a thing. That's why we chose... There's a packaging layer, which is all zip based. So if people haven't played around with it that XLSX, you can just put a .zip at the end and double click it. And it's just a zip file. And you can see a whole bunch of stuff inside of it. Right?
Rob Collie (00:37:23):
Yeah. If you're listening, you haven't done that go right now, run don't walk, grab an Excel file or a Word file, whatever. Go and rename the XLSX or BPTX, go ahead and rename it so that it ends in .zip and then open it up and you'll be blown away.
Thomas Larock (00:37:38):
PowerPoint is my favorite when I have to find some unknown setting that I need and I can just search through the whole thing. Yep.
Rob Collie (00:37:45):
Or all the images. You want to get all the images out of the PowerPoint file. It's just a zip file that has a bunch of images in it. Right.
Brian Jones (00:37:50):
So I also did this for backpack. It's the same thing. You can crack open the backpack by renaming a zip file...
Thomas Larock (00:37:58):
An actual physical backpack? What are we... what are we talking about here?
Brian Jones (00:38:03):
Ah yeah.
Rob Collie (00:38:03):
This is the digital acetate that is over the top of the entire physical world that you aren't aware of.
Thomas Larock (00:38:08):
Digital acetate, that's it? That's it. That's where the podcast peaks. Right? Those two words. We're all going home now.
Brian Jones (00:38:19):
Yeah. No. A SQL server, there's DAC pack, which is just the, say database schema. Then there's a backpack which has the data and the schema combined. But you can, if you rename them . zip, you can crack them open to see the XML that makes up those forms. So it's not just office products.
Rob Collie (00:38:37):
We ended up standardizing the entire thing, but that packaging format, it was called OPC, Open Packaging Convention, or something like that. It was something that we did in partnership with a Windows team. It's part of the final ISO standard for our file format. And then there were a lot of other folks that went and used that exact same standard. Because it's a really easy way of you have a zip package. You can have a whole bunch of pieces inside of it, which are XML. And then there's this convention for how you can do relationships between the different pieces. So I can have a slide. That's an XML and it can declare relationships to all the images that it uses. And that way it's really quick, easy to know, okay, here's all the content I need to grab if I want to move pieces of it outside of the file.
Rob Collie (00:39:16):
So the single coolest thing I've ever done with, we'll just call it your file format Brian. We'll just pretend that it was only you working on that.
Brian Jones (00:39:23):
Just me yeah, I was pretty busy, but yeah.
Rob Collie (00:39:27):
So the very, very first version of Power Pivot, first of all, your file format, the new file format made Power Pivot possible. We needed to go and add this gigantic binary stream of compressed data and everything, everything about Power Pivot needed to be saved in the file. At the beginning of the project, everyone was saying, "Oh, no, we're going to save it as two separate files." And I'm like, "Are you guys kidding?" The Pivot cache, for instance, is saved in the same file. You can't throw a multi file solution at people and expect it to... This was actually like Manhattan project, just to get that stream saved into the same file. It was pretty crazy. However, when it was done, there was something really awesome I wasn't aware of until the very end, which was, first of all, you could open up a zip file and just tunnel down and you would find a file in there called item one.data.
Rob Collie (00:40:21):
Okay. That was the Power Pivot blob. That was everything about the Power Pivot thing. And it was by far the biggest thing in the file, like it was like 99% of the file size was what was there. However, as this backup, someone had decided, I had nothing to do with this, to save all of the instructions. I think it's called XML for analysis XMLA. All of the instructions that would be required to rebuild exactly that file, but without any of the actual binary data in it. So it was a very, very small amount of XML. Okay. So here's what we would do because there were no good automation, no interfaces, no APIs. If we needed to add like 500 formulas to a Power Pivot file, you could go through the UI and write those 500 formulas, type, click, type, click, type, click.
Rob Collie (00:41:08):
Okay. So what we would do, and my first job outside of Microsoft, is we would go in there and we would edit that XML backup and add all the formulas we wanted in it. And by the way, I would use Excel to write these formulas. I would use string concatenation and all of that kind of stuff to write these things. It was very, very, very sensitive, one character out of place in the whole thing fails. So you make those changes. You save the file, reopen it, nothing happens because it's just the backup. Okay. So then you've got to go and you've got to create a zero byte item one.data file on your desktop and you copy it into the zip file and overwrite the real item one.data, therefore deliberately corrupting the primary copy. So when you reopen the file it triggers the backup process and it rehydrates with all of your stuff, it was awesome.
Rob Collie (00:41:57):
And then a couple of releases of Power Pivot later, suddenly that didn't work anymore and I was really pissed. But it just really shows you, it opens up so many opportunities that you never would have expected. And even a hack like that, that's not the kind that you'd be really looking for, but the fact that something like that even happens as a result of this is really indicative of what a success it was.
Brian Jones (00:42:19):
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of those things where, I love building platforms, like that's my favorite part of the job. It's all those things that you see people do that you never would have predicted. Right? That's just so exciting. PowerPoint had this huge group of folks that would go and build things like doc assembly stuff, right. Where they go and automatically build PowerPoint decks on demand, right? Based on who you're going to go and present to cause they've just shredded the thing. In fact, when we did the ISO standardization, it was a 6,000 page doc that we had to go. And we built and reviewed with a standards body and we did it over about a year. Which sounds nuts, a 6,000 page doc in about a year. And the way that we were able to do that is there was never really a 6,000 page doc. There's a database where there's a row for every single element and attribute in this, in the whole schema, that would then have the column which is the description, which would just be the word XML.
Brian Jones (00:43:09):
And so we could, on demand, at any point, generate whatever view or part of the doc we wanted. So we'd say, "Hey, we're going to go in now, review everything that has to do with formatting across Word, Excel and PowerPoint." And so we just click a couple buttons and the database would spit out a Word doc that was just that part. Everybody could go and edit it cause we were using the structured elements we'd added to Word, which is called content controls, which was the next version of that XML stuff that we had to deprecate. And then the process, as soon as you'd finish editing that Word doc, we just submit it back. The process would go back and shred that Word doc again and put it all back in the database. And so we really used the file format to bootstrap documenting the file format.
Rob Collie (00:43:48):
And then when you dump a 6,000 page document on someone, they have no choice. But to just say, yep, it looks good to us.
Brian Jones (00:43:55):
Well, there was a pretty, incredibly thorough review still. It was just pretty impressive. The final vote that we had in Geneva, the process leading up to that, the amount of feedback that we got. Cause basically the ISO, you can kind of think of it like the UN, you go and show up and every country has a seat, right? I mean, not everybody participates, but anybody that wants to can. And so yeah, we had to respond to thousands of comments around different pieces, things that people wanted to see changed.
Rob Collie (00:44:22):
Yeah. I can imagine, right. Think about it. You just said at the final vote in Geneva. That's a heavy moment man.
Thomas Larock (00:44:29):
Yeah. That threw me off for a second. I thought, for sure, you were talking Switzerland, but now thinking that was just a code name.
Rob Collie (00:44:38):
No, I think, I think he was actually in Switzerland.
Brian Jones (00:44:40):
In Switzerland.
Rob Collie (00:44:41):
Have you seen the chamber where they do these votes? It looks just like the Senate from episode one of Star Wars. It's just like that. It's pretty heavy.
Brian Jones (00:44:51):
The little levitating...
Rob Collie (00:44:53):
The floating lift. Yeah. I think they call that digital acetate. I think that's what they call that. By the way on the Excel team, the way I came to look at the new file format and the open architecture of it, again, this this will show you how quickly I had turned into the more cynic side of things. Well, okay. We're going to be changing file formats. And we're doing that for our benefit because we didn't have enough bits allocated in the 1980s version of the file format that was saved to floppy disc, as you pointed out, right. Who could ever imagine having more than 64,000 rows, it's just inconceivable or 250 columns or whatever, right.? Because we hadn't allocated that. We'd made an engineering mistake, essentially, we hadn't future-proofed. So we need to make a file format change for our benefit, right. To undo one of our mistakes. And the way I looked at it was, "Ooh, all this open file format stuff, that'll be like the 'Look, squirrel!'" To distract people and to sort of justify, while we went and did this other thing, which, ultimately it actually went pretty well. The transition for the customers actually wasn't nearly as bad, because we actually Took it seriously.
Rob Collie (00:46:03):
The transition for the customers actually wasn't nearly as bad because we actually took it seriously. We didn't cut any corners. We did all the right things.
Brian Jones (00:46:07):
Well, there were several benefits too. We were talking about all the kind of ecosystem development benefits, but the fact that the file was zipped and compressed right, it meant that the thing was smaller. And that was all of a sudden, it was no longer about floppy discs. People are sharing files on networks. And so actually being able to go and have a file that's easier to share, send over network because it's smaller was a thing.
Brian Jones (00:46:26):
There were a couple of things that we were able to go and highlight. There's also a pretty nice thing where it was actually more robust because it was XML, and we split it into multiple pieces of XML. It meant that even if you had bit rot, you would only lose one little piece of the file, whereas with old the binary format, you had some bit rot and the whole thing is impossible to open up.There are a couple of things that were in user benefits too, which helped.
Rob Collie (00:46:50):
And ultimately, on the Excel side, the user got a million row spreadsheet format and the ability to use a hell of a lot more than like 14 colors that could be used in a single spreadsheet or something. It was .like a power of two minus two, so many bizarre things. Like Excel had more colors than that, but you couldn't use more than a certain subset in a-
Brian Jones (00:47:10):
At a time, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:10):
-In a single file. So yeah, there were a lot of benefits. They just weren't-
Brian Jones (00:47:15):
It's not like it's an explicit choice. It's just that at the time somebody is implementing something, you're right in a way, assuming, "Oh, this is fine. This is enough. I'll never have to worry with this issue."
Rob Collie (00:47:25):
Why waste the whole byte on that? When you can cram four different settings into a single byte. If you read the old stories about Gates and Allen programming up at Harvard, they had these vicious head-to-head competitions to see who could write the compiler or the section of basic in the fewest bytes possible. This was still very much hanging over Microsoft, even the vestiges of it were still kind of hanging over us even when I arrived. But certainly in the '80s when the Excel file format was being designed for that rev, it was still very much like, "Why waste all those bits in a byte?" "Let's cap it at four bits".
Thomas Larock (00:48:05):
In that blog series from Sinofsky, he talks a lot about that at the early start. And I'm at a point now where he's talking a lot about the code reuse because the Excel team, the Word team, I guess PowerPoint, but all these other teams, were all dealing with, say, text. And they were all doing their own code for how that text would be displayed and shown. And Bill would be the one being like, " This is ridiculous". "We should be able to reuse the code between these products". And to me, that would just be common sense. But these groups, Microsoft just grew so rapidly so quickly, they were off on their own, and they have to ship. I ain't got time to wait around for this, for somebody to build an API, things like that. I'll just write it myself.
Brian Jones (00:48:50):
It's a general thing that you get as you get larger where the person in charge that can oversee everything is like, "Well, these are all my resources", and, "Wow, I don't want three groups all building the same thing". But then when you get down, there's also a reality of we're just going to have a very different view on text and text layout than Excel. And Excel is not going to say, "I want all of that code that Word uses to lay out all of their content to be running for every single cell". Right? That's just suboptimal. And so it's always this fun conversation back and forth around where do you have shared code and reuse and where do you say it's okay for this specific app to have this more optimized thing that might look the same, but in reality, it's not really the same.
Rob Collie (00:49:33):
Brian, do you remember the ... I'm sure you do, but I don't remember what company they were from. But at one point in this file format effort, these really high priced consultants showed up and went around and interviewed us a couple of times. Do you remember that phase? It was like-
Brian Jones (00:49:51):
Was that towards the end? There was a couple summary stories that were pulled together just to talk about the overall processes. It was actually after the standardization.
Rob Collie (00:49:58):
I remember this being at the point in time where it was still kind of a question. whether we should do it.
Brian Jones (00:50:02):
I don't remember that.
Rob Collie (00:50:04):
The thing I remember really vividly is a statement that Chris Pratley would make over and over again, this encapsulated it for me. I came around to seeing it his way, which was the file format isn't the thing. That's not the moat. The thing that makes Office unique is the behaviors of the application. It's not the noun of the file format. It's the verb of what happens in the app. It's instructed to think that even if you took exactly the Excel team today, every single person that's already worked on it, and said, "Hey, you have to go rebuild Excel exactly". There's no way that version of Excel would be compatible with the one we have now. It would drift so much.
Rob Collie (00:50:43):
You could even have access to all the same specs. We would even cheat and say, "Look, you can have access to every single spec ever written". So? It was clearly someone had thought it was time to bring in like a McKinsey. They were all well dressed. They were all attractive. They were all a little too young to be the ones sort of making these decisions. It was just really weird to have them show up, three people in your office. Like, "Okay, I'll tell you what's going on".
Brian Jones (00:51:11):
I can totally imagine. It's funny I don't remember that. There were several rounds of analysis on how we were doing it, what we're doing and making sure we were doing it the right way. But yeah, Chris is spot on. I mean, your point about rebuilding it, that's essentially what we've been going through for the past five plus years around our web app. It's a lot of work. Unfortunately, we can't let it drift. The expectation from everybody is, "Hey, I learned the Wind 32 version. When I go to the web, I want it to feel the same. I don't want to feel like I'm now using some different app."
Rob Collie (00:51:44):
What an amazing, again, like a Manhattan project type of thing, this notion of rewriting Excel to run on the web and be compatible.
Brian Jones (00:51:55):
Yeah, with 30 years of innovation.
Rob Collie (00:51:56):
Yeah. That started in the 2007 release. Excel services, the first release of Excel services was 2007. And this whole thing about shared code, like what features, what functions of Excel, what pieces of it were going to be rewritten to be quote unquote "shared code"? And shared code meant it was actually server safe, which none of regular desktop Excel written in the early '80s, still carrying around assembly in certain places, assembly code of all things, right? Excel was not server safe. It was about as far from server safe as you could get. And so to rewrite this so ambitious without breaking anything. Oh my God. What a massive ... This dates back, gosh, more than 15 years.
Brian Jones (00:52:45):
Yeah. I'd say like the first goals around it were a bit different, right? It wasn't a web version of Excel. It was like BI scenarios and how can we have dashboards and Excel playing a role in dashboards. But yeah, I'd say since I joined, it was probably maybe a half a year or a year into when I joined, we just made the decision to shift a huge chunk of our funding to the web app. It was just clear that we need to make even more rapid progress. If you go, we have a site where you can go and see all the features that are rolling out there. It's incredible. And it's just because of the depth of the product. "Wow that's so many features you've done. You must be almost done". But then you look at everything else that's still isn't done yet.
Brian Jones (00:53:23):
Now thankfully, we're getting to the point where we can look at telemetry and say, "Hey, we've got most people covered." Most users, when we look at what they do in Windows, they could use the web app and shouldn't notice a difference. But there still is a set of things that we're going to keep churning through. So that'll continue to be a huge, huge investment for us. But yeah, the shared code strategy, we have an iPhone version, an iPad version an Android version. We've got Excel across all platforms. And because of the shared code, when we add new features, the feature crew that's working on that, they need to have a plan for how they're going to roll out across all those platforms, clearly levered shared code. But they also need to think through user experience and stuff like that too. Clearly a feature on a phone is going to behave differently than it's going to behave on a desktop.
Rob Collie (00:54:05):
Part of me, just like, kind of wants to just say, "I don't even believe that you've pulled that off, there's no way". It's kind of like, I've never looked at the Android version, and until I look at the Android version, I'm just going to assume it's not real. This is why it's one of the hardest things imaginable to have a single code base with all these different user experience, just fundamental paradigms of difference between these platforms. Like really? Come on.
Brian Jones (00:54:34):
It was a massively ambitious project. Mac shifted over maybe three years ago. And that's when, all of a sudden, in addition to a bunch of just features that people have been asking for that we'd never been able to get to, the massive one there was we were able to roll out the co-authoring multiplayer mode for Excel.
Rob Collie (00:54:50):
Multiplayer.
Brian Jones (00:54:52):
That's the term I like for co-authoring. It's more fun.
Rob Collie (00:54:55):
Yeah. It's like MMO for spreadsheets.
Brian Jones (00:54:57):
Yes. We were able to get that for the Mac. I mean, all of our platforms. One of us can be on an iPad, an iPhone, the web app, and we'll all see what we're doing in real time, making edits and all of that stuff. That alone, if you want to talk about massive projects, 30 years of features and innovation, basically that means we had to go and teach Excel how to communicate to another version of Excel and be very specific about, "This is what I did." "Here's the action I took." And that is massive. There are thousands and thousands of things you can do in the product. So getting it so that all of those versions are in sync the entire time, and so we're all seeing the exact same results of calc and all of that. That itself was a huge, massive project.
Rob Collie (00:55:37):
Take this as the highest form of praise when I say I don't buy it. I can't believe it.
Brian Jones (00:55:44):
I hope everybody's okay that we just talked for like an hour on just like listening to somebody at a high school reunion, I think, or something. Is this like me talking about how great I played in that one game? And you're like, "Yeah, that was a great basket".
Rob Collie (00:55:54):
Yeah. "Man, my jumper was on". the thing that's hard to appreciate, I think, is that you got to come back to the fact that we're talking about the tools that everyone in the world uses every day, that we rely on. And I think being gone from Microsoft for the last 12 years, I'm able to better appreciate that sense of wonder. This isn't just you and I catching up, I don't think. People enjoy, for good reason I think, hearing the stories of how these things came to be. People don't know by default how hard it was to get to a million rows in the file format. If you're like a robot, you're like, "I don't care how I got here. I just care what it is", then you're not listening to this show. We call it data with a human element. Robots can exit stage left. I think you should feel zero guilt. This isn't just self-indulgence.
Brian Jones (00:56:55):
Well, on the off chance everybody else ... I've listened to a lot of Rob's other podcasts, and they're awesome. So if you're bored with this one, it's okay. Go check out some of the other ones. They're great.
Rob Collie (00:57:06):
Imposter syndrome rears its head. This guy, Brian, all he does is run the mission for Excel. I mean, he's, he's not good enough to be on our show.
Brian Jones (00:57:17):
And talk about his past, I guess, all the time.
Rob Collie (00:57:21):
If you struggle with imposter syndrome, right there should be your antidote. Right? We just heard ... Trust me, Brian, you're okay.
Brian Jones (00:57:31):
Thank you, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:57:32):
We just talked about all this gargantuan effort, intelligent, but also heavily resource and effort intensive. You can't just be smart about this and then suddenly it's done in a month, you've got to be smart every single day on every single little microscopic detail while grinding for years to do these sorts of things. And at the same time, sort of at the same time, there's also been this JavaScript API. Holy hell. So file this also "under things that can't be done", a version of the office object model and API that can be used for local desktop automation, like VBA has forever, but also to be used for server automation of the cloud-based web based apps.
Brian Jones (00:58:22):
Ooh. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:23):
And I haven't had the time or the energy to get into this. I have not written a single line of code against this new API. But when I started to hear things like ... Yeah, we had little tiny things like this even back when I was at Microsoft, there were a couple of APIs that would work on the server, but they were completely different from the desktop version. And they were an egregiously tiny subset, just the least ambitious things possible. And so I kept using the criteria of, until you give me a range object equivalent in this fancy blah-blah-blah API that you're working on, Microsoft, it ain't real. It certainly sounds like y'all have that now, which is nuts.
Brian Jones (00:59:11):
Yeah. It's funny. This one could actually be a long history discussion because we started this project actually 10 years ago, basically around when my daughter was born, where the first step was really looking more pro devs. But it was the idea of we're moving cross plat. It was still early days for the web app. We weren't really working on mobile yet, but it was clear, mobile apps were going to start to become a thing. And so it was like, hey, VBA and COM APIS just aren't going to be across plat, so we need to figure something out here. And I would go and talk to a bunch of developers. I'd go to build conferences and stuff like that. And they'd talk about how challenging it was to specialize in office development because so much of the tech that they would learn was not applicable in other contexts.
Brian Jones (00:59:54):
And so we start thinking, "Okay, well what are the texts that they know?" We were looking at things like that .net. And we eventually started looking at well, there's obviously a ton of people doing web development, HTML, JavaScript. So what if we just said extending Office was just like writing a webpage or building a web app? And I'd say the first round of it, it was a little bit more like data visualization type of scenarios. We would go and kind of I-frame in your web app into Excel. You could write some HTML. But that was the starting point to start to build out an API. And it just, back to the same thing we were talking about the web app, 30 years of API innovation, it takes a long time to get to where we've got an API that covers most of the things you can do in the product.
Brian Jones (01:00:38):
And so we stayed really focused on ProDevs for a long time, because to do an end user, kind of like the VBA, equivalent where you can do Mac recording and stuff like that, you've got to cover everything somebody can do. Because it's kind of weird to say record macro, and then only 20% of the things you do actually get recorded. And so we reached that point about a year or so ago. And so I think it was last spring, we went and released the beta version of this Office scripts. And then we just GA-ed the spring. Right now, the main platform we run on for the macro recording piece is all on the web. But of course, the plan is to go across plat and desktop and everything too. But it's kind of neat. It's an example of, there are certain cases now where going out first on the web where if you went back like four years ago, everything was Windows first and then eventually it would show up, hopefully, on web.
Rob Collie (01:01:29):
First of all, I'm crazy impressed that this has happened. I just tuned out of this whole conversation many years ago because I just felt like you're never going to get there. And then you just sneaked up on me. It was like the tortoise and the hair. The other thing that's really impressive to me is sort of the organizational discipline and willingness to make those long commitments, the things that aren't going to necessarily pay off in 6 to 12 months, or even 18 months. To be on an initiative that does take many years to deliver, that's first of all, a non-Microsoft mindset. I typically associate that with Microsoft as an outside observer. And secondly, you're in this world now where you're releasing on a much faster tempo. It would seem like it would even reduce the chances-
Brian Jones (01:02:20):
Yeah, it's going to be harder-
Rob Collie (01:02:21):
Further. That you could keep your eye on a project that honestly, like you say, it honestly doesn't have any payoff at 90% done. You've got to get to a hundred before you can reap any of the benefits. It just seems like such delayed gratification, many, many, many years of it. Hats off. I was on some sort of usergroup virtual meeting, and someone from your team, someone from the Excel team was there. I know them, but I just forget who it was. And I was laughing about my wheel of inquisition, which is the pie chart that I spin with VBA, at a random distance to pick who has to answer the next question or who has to ask the next question on team meetings. I just said, "Look, this is an example of why you still need desktop Excel". And your team member interjected and said, "No, I actually think you can do this in the Office script API now". And I'm like, "Get out of town. Just shut up". That was the moment that I kind of started to pay attention.
Brian Jones (01:03:16):
Yeah. It's gotten a lot more real over the past few years. We had a similar experience with a lot of the MVPS where it was kind of like, okay, I have a set of things that I use come in VBA for, I don't see you solving those yet. But now it's gotten a lot more real. I don't know how much you worked with Tristan, but this is all ... Tristan Davis runs this team. And they're just doing a phenomenal job.
Rob Collie (01:03:36):
Tristan wasn't really around when I was there. I left the Excel team in 2006, late 2006, to go work on fantasy football over in-
Brian Jones (01:03:45):
Oh yeah, that wasn't just a hobby. You actually went to a team. I forgot about that.
Rob Collie (01:03:47):
I actually did, yeah, the team that existed for six months and then evaporated. And I got folded into being, which was terrible. But then I ended up on Power Pivot. So all is, well that ends well. But by the way, the last time I saw the vice president who's left Microsoft, but the VP who was in charge of Excel for many years, the last time I saw him, I was working on Power Pivot. And he already announced he was leaving. And he just sort of like, "oh, so friendly, good to see you", you know, whatever, just in the hallway. And he's like, "Hey, you know, I still use you, Rob, as a cautionary tale to people on how to not mess up their career.
Brian Jones (01:04:20):
Wow. Oh my God. That's great.
Rob Collie (01:04:22):
He wasn't expecting it to land is a bad thing. He had no idea. And I'm like, "Oh, that's great". I'm slapping him on the back. "That is the best thing ever". He had no idea. Actually, in the end it was fantastic for my career, that whole path. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Brian Jones (01:04:39):
But that wasn't the point he was making at the time.
Rob Collie (01:04:41):
No, that Was not the point he was making. He didn't bother to find out whether it was working out for me. So I just buttered you up. I just told you how awesome it is that y'all have the discipline and the patience to set a multi-year goal and deliver on it. I got another one for you that's in this category, which is, let's get serious about onboarding the VLOOKUP and Pivot crowd into data modeling. Let's do that. By the way, observation about Microsoft not being willing to invest in anything that's not six months out, that impression of mine is primarily built from watching this problem for the last decade, decade plus actually. There's never an answer that's six months away. It's a hard problem. It's just fundamentally a really hard problem. And it's not one that you can just set aside like a two person team and have them take care of it.
Rob Collie (01:05:39):
But if we ... I'm going to put myself on the same side of the table because I understand, I think, a lot of the trade offs. If we collectively had been doing this even five years ago, it would have been over by now. It's like when you're on a diet, "Oh, if I'd only started six months ago, I'd already be skinny". I am encouraged by the stepped up cooperation between the Power BI and Excel teams. And yet I still think there's something massive being missed here, which is that all of the truly valuable data model builders for Power BI, all of the future builders, it just rounds to 100%. They're all Excel if you look up in Pivot people today. There's this sort of myth that it's an IT thing. It's not, it's not an IT thing. It's the citizen developer type embedded in the business.
Rob Collie (01:06:34):
Even just emotionally like we were talking about earlier about the people who, when they see something, they get frustrated that they didn't know about it. I mean, this is our life. We're not just a training company. In fact, we do a lot more project consulting now than we training. Training is becoming less and less of an important part of our business. But it's still sort of part of our DNA. So many times people would just like scream from the back of the room. Like, "No! What?" I can go to a finance conference, like an FP&A conference, and show this off and be positive that 90% of the room plus has never seen any of it. It's life-changing to them.
Rob Collie (01:07:09):
It's almost like we owe it to them. And everyone that listens to the show knows that this is my soap box issue. I would be so inauthentic if I didn't bring it up with you. I don't expect you to go, "Hey Rob. Yeah, that was it. This conversation was the thing we needed. Now we're going to go and do it". But I can't omit this one. So anytime I can lobby to add this particular topic, maybe that multi-year payoff gene. Oh my God. Let's do it.
Brian Jones (01:07:39):
Yeah. And just for folks that for the listening audience, this isn't the first time I've heard this from Rob. He's only six months into my job. And Dave, Dave Gayner, who's my boss, he had had my job. And then he moved up and became a big wig. He said, "Hey, one of the things you should probably do is go and just get Rob Collie's training because you'll kind of see a bunch of customers and how they use the product, and you'll also learn from him". And it was neat because your next training was in London, so I got to go travel to London to go and get the training. So that was kind of a nice perk too.
Rob Collie (01:08:08):
Yes, it was.
Brian Jones (01:08:10):
Well, and yeah, I learned a ton. Same thing. I was like, "Wow, this is pretty cool. I didn't know my product could do this", because I'd been on the job for a few months. In fact, I remember one of the people that was in the session was sitting next to me, and you'd introduced me and who I was during the sessions.
Rob Collie (01:08:25):
Of course, we got to put the target on you.
Brian Jones (01:08:26):
Yeah, of course. And so I was making some comments, and the guy was just ... I felt like he was just really offended that I didn't know. He's like, "How can you be in charge of this product and not know this stuff?" And so I wanted to go into the background of like, "Well, I just joined, and that's how it works". But, of course, I got super defensive.
Rob Collie (01:08:44):
You're welcome, Brian.
Brian Jones (01:08:45):
But I can't remember ... I think you and I are having beers or something afterwards. And you're just like, "If you just went to every airport and put up posters that had a V lookup with a question mark and then Power Pivot below, that would do it. Right? It's resonating. I still remember that.
Rob Collie (01:09:02):
That's good. That's long been one of my-
Rob Collie (01:09:03):
Yeah.
Brian Jones (01:09:03):
It's resonating. I still remember that.
Rob Collie (01:09:03):
That's good. That's long been one of my favorite things.
Brian Jones (01:09:05):
There's a lot of stuff that we've done over time to try to... like, for instance, we've done things to try and make people more aware of Power BI. People have a Power BI license and they're doing stuff in Excel, we'll go and say, "Hey, did you know about power BI?", and try and go and take them off to discover that, because they might be able to benefit from it. Right? And over the long run, we are working with the Power BI team, we want to make sure that we've got better compatibility with the engine and the data models that are run. Right? So you can, whatever you build in Power BI, you can bring into Excel and vice versa. And so there's clearly like a north star we have there around the user not having to think, oh, am I using Power Pivot or am I using Power BI? And those are two different decisions they have to make. That just kind of feels weird. It's basically you're doing the same job.
Brian Jones (01:09:49):
And as you know, Rob, like you working on the product, you can't just put a big button in the ribbon and all of a sudden everybody's going to discover it.
Rob Collie (01:09:56):
No. I-
Brian Jones (01:09:56):
Right? Nobody sees it. So that's where the trick is trying to figure out those points in time where it's like, hey, we think someone would benefit from this higher level of feature. How do we go and educate them about that? And that's where we're starting some of the stuff I talked about with AI. We're doing that, but at a lower level, like you've got a table of data and we say, hey, did you know you can summarize this with a Pivot table? And we're going to iterate on and see how that works. But this would like... Educating people on Power BI will be a thing that we'll continue to look to do based on the activities that folks are doing. And some of the triggers you've thrown out are great ones, right?
Rob Collie (01:10:31):
Talking to someone from Microsoft recently on this show, I made kind of exactly that recommendation. It Was like, forget it. Even if it was just an awareness thing, the really hard problem is to look at what they're doing and go, oh, this particular file that you're working with right now, we can turn it into a Power Pivot file or a data model. That's crazy. That is really, really difficult. But identifying the people who are good candidates to build data models and therefore would change their lives in the process, right?
Brian Jones (01:11:05):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:11:06):
Everybody wins here. Identifying those people by their behavior, that shouldn't be hard. And then if it's just an on-ramp, "Hey, you are one of us," right? You are one of this chosen few, and here's the URL. It just takes you to like a YouTube video that's five minutes long, it doesn't try to teach anything, it just shows what they're missing, God, that would be so profound. And that I wouldn't care about Power Pivot in Excel. That wouldn't matter so much.
Brian Jones (01:11:37):
Yeah. It's probably a thing that you haven't seen because you probably wouldn't have gotten the notification, but there already is in the product. I can't remember the exact triggers, but we went and looked at some data to see who are the people that would benefit from Power BI and what are the behaviors in the app? I don't remember if it was using VLOOKUPs, or it also had to do with what kind of things they were sharing because it turned out if they were sharing then they had more likelihood that Power BI would be super useful because they could go and publish a thing. But there was a set of folks that we would actually go and notify. We'd have a little toast that would come up saying, hey, do you know about Power BI? Here's what it'll do for you. Click here to go and learn more. And that was super effective. It ended up being that the logic that we picked for who we'd share that with the click-through rate was super high. And the Power BI team saw that not only did they go through, but then they actually became engaged Power BI users.
Brian Jones (01:12:21):
But those are the things that Arun's team and my team. So for folks that don't know, Arun runs the Power BI team. We already look at that and work on that. And then there's a ton of stuff that we've announced around silly things that just felt more like bugs, but actually were a good amount of work, like our web app wouldn't refresh pivot tables that were connected to Power BI data sets, right? We went and fixed that. So now if you want to go and publish your pivot table into Power BI, you can. And so that's another way that those users might first start with just Excel content that they built, but they go into Power BI start, to see some of the benefits that Power BI brings and start to onboard into other things.
Brian Jones (01:12:57):
We're also looking at how to do a better job if you just, if you happen to have those cases where Excel is your source of truth for data, you have a big table of data in Excel. Getting that to be something you push up into Power BI, they have so much cool intelligence now, right? Where you go and push that data in Power BI and they'll automatically generate dashboards for you and stuff like that. Right? So I'd say view this as it's a long running thing, it's going to be slow, and so you're not going to see like everything solved right away, but you should notice every six months that there's that next thing that we've done and just know that that's not just us doing little small piecemeal things, there is a longer north star that we're going towards. But it's going. It's slow. Some of the stuff that we're doing under the hood is actually... some of it's a little bit heavier lifting.
Rob Collie (01:13:39):
I'm actually incredibly relieved to hear that. I've been waiting 11 years, so a slow and steady approach is fine with me. It's the possibility that nothing might be happening that has been really killing me, but any-
Brian Jones (01:13:54):
We are definitely working on it.
Rob Collie (01:13:56):
And look at the success that you've had on long running initiatives. We just talked about them. If this gets a similar type of mindset, the ghost of Rob Collie can finally rest easy.
Brian Jones (01:14:07):
You can run... I mean, he's still going to give us a hard time about it. It's one that I... I should just talk to you every once in a while about them. Right? Because it'll be... Every time we announced one of these, I should just kind of ping you just to see, do you see it as a continued progress or did that seem like just kind of a swing and a miss, right?
Rob Collie (01:14:22):
Well, I had no idea, for instance about the toaster thing that you talked about. No idea. Boy, the pivot table refreshing. That's a huge deal.
Brian Jones (01:14:30):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:14:31):
It doesn't do anything really to address growing the author audience, but it doesn't matter, that one was just too big, and I know that it was a hard problem, so.
Brian Jones (01:14:39):
It just clearly... I had another clear sign of, there were some just gaps where we would... like the two things just didn't work together properly. Right? And clearly we need the systems to work together seamlessly.
Rob Collie (01:14:50):
All right. What's next for Excel? What's the overall roadmap other than taking care of this Power BI authoring problem, which is clearly top of the stack.
Brian Jones (01:15:00):
All of that stuff I talked about, the multiplayer mode of Excel, super critical there. We're going to keep innovating, making that better matter. For us, web is a tier one experience. It's got to be just as good as Win32 and Mac. So we're going to continue to innovate really heavily there and invest really heavily there. The whole area around intelligence, just trying to find ways of making the application easier to use, easier to learn, more approachable. If you look at, even in schools, people are trying to teach data literacy. Excel should be a key tool for that. And so it's really important that we go and make Excel a thing that teachers feel like they can use to go and teach kids how to work with data. And so there's a big opportunity there, but there's a lot of work we need to do there to just make the application feel more approachable for that audience.
Rob Collie (01:15:46):
I completely agree. So many times if I had more time and energy, thought about it so much, like going and volunteering when my kids were still little. Can you imagine showing conditional formatting to a room full of like eight year olds?
Brian Jones (01:15:59):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:16:00):
They would just jump out of their seats at the insights that leap off the page. Like you'd show them a sea of numbers. Who did best? No, I don't know. No. Okay. Look, voom! Conditional format. And everyone just knows.
Brian Jones (01:16:15):
Yeah, you should go and look, we put a couple of templates. We did one back in November. It was a thing we did with NASA where it was to get kids excited about looking at space data or data on rockets and things like that, so we built a bunch of templates. We've got one that we just launched about orcas. It was World Orca Day. And so we've got these templates that let you go and analyze the different pods of orcas that exist. It's using the Wolfram data types, so you can actually have cells that are each orca and you can click on them to see all the data about them and start to do analysis. So there's a lot of fun stuff we're doing there. But probably the really big one, back to your point, big bet. The other big bet is you were calling it citizen developer, but really there's people that like to build and create and make stuff, right?
Brian Jones (01:16:59):
You've got people that are heavy data and want to do an analysis, but there's another side of Excel, which is really more just like solution building or modeling or things like that. Right? Like back to the whole, I talked about the beginning, the soul of the product is the grid and calc.
Rob Collie (01:17:14):
Yep.
Brian Jones (01:17:15):
And there's a set of investments that, this is a long running project that we have rolled out in pieces, and I don't talk about them as being one combined thing, but really they are one combined vision, which is really upleveling Excel as a programming language. We're working really closely with researchers in Cambridge, UK who specialize in functional programming. They're experts in functional programming. We've been working with them for a while.
Rob Collie (01:17:40):
Is this where we get to mention, namedrop, Simon Peyton Jones?
Brian Jones (01:17:44):
Yes, it is. Simon Peyton Jones, who is just amazing. He's been heavily involved in helping us develop that. And again, Excel, worlds must be the language, people don't usually think that. You think of things like JavaScript, but those are like in the maybe 10 million developers. Excel is literally, there are hundreds of millions of people who know how to write formulas, right? It's by far the world's most popular programming language.
Brian Jones (01:18:08):
And there are certain things though that the product was always lacking. Some of the stuff we announced recently, things like Lambda and let, those were just basic primitives you'd expect to have in a programming language, right? The ability to have code reuse. So if you write a formula that's complex, do you have to rewrite it every time? And then if you realize you made an error, do you have to then go back and fix it everywhere? Or you use Lambda where you can just define it once, give it a name, use that name everywhere, and if you need to fix it you go to one place and you go and fix it. Lambda also added a whole bunch of really powerful stuff around like you can do recursion, it made Excel Turing complete. In theory, Excel was Turing complete because of VBA. But with Lambda, it means just the grid and calc and formulas is Turing complete, take all the VBA and all that stuff out of it.
Rob Collie (01:18:52):
The thing I really like about that feature is the name, because you hear it and you know immediately what it does for you. I mean, it just jumps off the page, right? Like I say, Lambda, and everyone's like, yeah, totally, I know what I'd do with that. I couldn't resist.
Brian Jones (01:19:07):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:19:08):
It's like, it's not reusable formulas. It's not.
Brian Jones (01:19:11):
No. There's a reason. If there's anything that you should take away, the things that we do or are doing are really long running bets. Lambda is... it's a geeky, underlying enabling tech that a lot of end user-facing experiences will start to show up on top of over time. And yeah, if you even look at like our blog posts, we were targeting a specific audience with Lambda that would actually get it, right? Over time we will add more. The other big one there is data types. I don't know how much you've looked at data types, but this will actually resonate with you from back in your XML days. If you think about all the innovation that's happened in Excel, tons of innovation around things like pivot table, conditional formatting you mentioned, all that stuff, formulas then stuff like XLOOKUP and crazy fast calc, there's been so much innovation, yet what you can type into Excel is no more interesting than like a notepad. Right? It is the most basic thing. You could write a string, a number or a formula. What the heck?
Brian Jones (01:20:10):
It's been around for 30 years and we haven't innovated in what can go into a cell. That's what data types is. We talk about it with just things like stocks, but underneath we have plumbed Excel so that a cell can be a deep, rich value, completely jagged data. If you look at like the Wolfram data types, it's hierarchical data that's all stored in that one cell, but it still works with calc. You can now have a cell value can be an image. You can compare two images with each other. You can say, does this equal that? You get true/false. It's kind of mind blowing what data types actually does.
Rob Collie (01:20:46):
I can do a VLOOKUP or an XLOOKUP or whatever against a table of images now?
Brian Jones (01:20:50):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:20:50):
And I won't need like the camera tool.
Brian Jones (01:20:53):
Right. Now, the only way right now to get images is if you have a data types that have images and then you can pull that out through a reference. But of course eventually we'll just have where you can just go and insert your own image, right? But one of the partnerships that we did with Power BI is you can have Power BI data come into Excel as a data type. So I could have a set of data defined up in Power BI, bring that in as a data type, I can look at that data, I can hover over it, I see a card, it tells me where that came from. So now if I'm like, oh shoot, is that really what the product price is? Did somebody just copy paste this? Where did it come from? I know where it came from my hover over it, I see a card. It came from that Power BI source, right?
Brian Jones (01:21:31):
So it means Power BI can be your master data manager. Right? You can say, okay, I've got all my master data here, I bring it into Excel, and Excel I actually see where that data came from, I can trust it, and now I can go and do a whole bunch of calc around it. So the data type stuff, it's just, again, it's kind of scratching the surface a little bit in terms of the way that we go and talk about it, but it's some deep, deep plumbing.
Brian Jones (01:21:53):
And then the last piece, which is also about just new types of values is arrays. Right now I can go and have it where I can have a formula that returns an array of values, right? So I could have stock dot history and that one formula will return a huge set of data that goes into the grid, and then I can write another formula that references that result and I can have that formula apply to the entire thing in the array, right? So I can have an array of data that I can pass through the calc chain and do manipulations on that array of data. And so I can do that step by step by step process, manipulating that full array, where in the past, that was the beauty of Excel, is I do a step by step by step, but it was always with that single value, like I get a number and I'm going to go do a few operations on it to get the final result.
Brian Jones (01:22:41):
Now I can have a data type like a person and do multiple operations on it using the programming language, or I can have an array of data that I can do multiple steps on it. So it's the beauty of the grid and calc, but now I'm working against the world's data, I'm working against all sorts of objects, not just numbers and strings.
Rob Collie (01:22:59):
So I'm going to give you all the disclaimers. It's one person's opinion and it's an unsolicited opinion. I know that.
Brian Jones (01:23:05):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:23:06):
Right. But what better time to give you that opinion than when we're recording for the world to hear? So I think that of all the features you just mentioned that are pushing the envelope, like the state-of-the-art of Excel forward, I have this instinct that the one that's going to become most common, sort of like most ubiquitous, is Lambda. And so I want to project that sooner or later you're going to rename it, because I think it's probably more applicable to a wider audience. You know the book, or the concept, crossing the chasm? I think for early adopters, Lambda is the right name. It's not the right name for early majority. And I think there is one for Lambda. It's just so fundamental, right?
Rob Collie (01:23:52):
This is a problem. The lack of formula reuse is a problem that basically plagues every single formula writer ever. I can imagine living my whole life without, in a particular niche, without ever needing to manipulate arrays as if they were a single value. Now, there's plenty of cases where I can imagine that I would, right? It's not that I'm saying that it's a bad feature. I think it's an awesome feature, but man, Lambda, I just see Lambda as just like incredibly mainstream. I could be completely wrong about that, of course. But I think I'd have a better chance teaching Lambda to a broader audience than I would arrays for instance, even the new dynamic ones. So anyway, end of rant. It's not even really a rant, it's-
Brian Jones (01:24:37):
That's no rant.
Rob Collie (01:24:37):
As rants go, it's pretty polite.
Thomas Larock (01:24:39):
That wasn't a rant.
Brian Jones (01:24:39):
That's just an opinion. To me, I'm like, hey, tyranny either or.
Rob Collie (01:24:43):
I know. Friends like, I hear your business book concept and I have raised you my business book concept.
Brian Jones (01:24:50):
All the time, man.
Rob Collie (01:24:52):
You've read the same best 100 business book's cliff notes that I have.
Brian Jones (01:24:57):
I haven't thought about this from a crossing the chasm, early adopter thing. I think of it more like in terms of user persona, it's more closer to being truly like would identify as a developer. And a lot of the stuff that we've done here so far is at that layer. The place that Lambda's exposed as like a name is in the formula itself you build. But clearly as we go and build a UI on top of it to make it easier to go and create those, we wouldn't go and say like have a big button that says, generate my own Lambda. That's not really the way that it'd be implemented. But then the data types in the array stuff, I think you'll be surprised over time. I get that you're not... like it wouldn't be a thing that you'd say, "Hey, I'm going to go and teach somebody arrays," but I think that what you'll find is it'll just almost naturally start to become how you work.
Brian Jones (01:25:42):
It's just like data types is almost one of those things where you say, I don't have a class right now where I say I'm going to teach you about cells, let's talk about cells and what goes into a cell. And so this is really just saying we're just upleveling what can go into a cell. And so eventually nobody really even thinks about it. It just will seem natural. It's like, well, of course you could put that stuff in there.
Rob Collie (01:25:59):
Well, so it's not about... It might've come across this way. It's not about a lack of belief in these other things. It's more like, I just think the bar size, the pie is bigger. And the example that I can't get out of my head, it's something that I wasn't exposed to until I come outside of Microsoft, all these income statement forecast spreadsheets, giant spreadsheets that cover acres of screen real estate of this like projecting forward month, month, month, month, month with different variables being fed in and different growth rates and different attrition rates and all of that, and all of that intermediate calculation, all of that real estate is just to produce a very small handful of outputs. So it's like I start with a small number of assumptions and some rules, and then I expand that, blow it out across this whole spreadsheet that thankfully can be more than 256 columns wide now, right? And then all I do is harvest those three values at the end. That's all I really care about. Or what's my break even month, how long before I break even? There's just a handful of outputs.
Rob Collie (01:26:59):
And I end up with this gargantuan device and I can't iterate on it. It's like I changed the inputs and then I want to save off the outputs. I just want to turn that whole thing into... and then just turn it into a table on another sheet, hide that machinery behind the scenes. And I just think that's just so incredibly mainstream, like everyone has this problem. And so that's why I just can't get this one off my brain. So it's really an obsession with the Lambda feature as opposed to a lack of interest in the others. Because I've already used the others, too.
Brian Jones (01:27:29):
Yeah. The idea around reusable logic and even going further, right, like Lambda's that I could go and create and then call from outside of Excel, a Lambda as a web service you could publish, right? There's a long way that we'll be able to go with this. And so I think that it's a huge, huge opportunity for us. Right now what we've released is just kind of the beginning underpinnings of a lot of innovation that will be coming.
Rob Collie (01:27:58):
I have to say as a long-time observer of all this, former insider on exactly that product, I think it's really truly exciting. It's real innovation. It's not keeping up with the Joneses. It's not like making sure you have parody with your competitors. And it's also not the old disease of, wouldn't it be cool if? It's not the old stuff like the things that we were doing with XML, right? It's grounded in true, actual value for the customer base, for the people of the world, and is innovative. That's hard to do. It's doable, it turns out, but there's a lot of discipline to it and I salute the direction that y'all been headed in. It really is exciting.
Brian Jones (01:28:38):
Yeah. Thanks. The thing that's been fun about that project is the combination of, you know them, there's a bunch of people on our team who their background is like financial modeling. Right? And so in addition to us researching the customer, we hired the customer. Right? Which, is great. And then we've combined that with the folks in, like Simon Peyton Jones in MSR and Andy Gordon, this combination of computer science experts. Right? And then people who deeply understand the customer problem. And like you said, it's really easy to go and see, what are those challenges? Well, one is when I'm looking at my model, can I trust the data, where'd the data come from? Right? And so this partnership with Power BI around data types helps a ton with that. Can I go and write logic that's reusable, so it's not fragile? Lambda's going to be huge for that.
Brian Jones (01:29:26):
And then even our collab stuff, we announced that in our web app now, and it'll come to the desktop, I can now go and write... if I see a value and I don't know where the hell that came from or why did it change, I can right click and say, show changes, and it will actually show you the edit history of that.
Rob Collie (01:29:39):
Wow.
Brian Jones (01:29:40):
So I can see, oh, Rob edited this two days ago, I can now go and contact Rob and say, "Hey man, what's going on? Why did you change my formula to a hard-coded value? That's not good practice, man."
Rob Collie (01:29:49):
For yucks.
Brian Jones (01:29:50):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:29:51):
I just wanted to see if-
Brian Jones (01:29:52):
Just for fun.
Rob Collie (01:29:52):
... you're paying attention. Yeah.
Brian Jones (01:29:54):
I wanted to get the output I was hoping for.
Rob Collie (01:29:56):
Yep. That's what we do. We cook the books. Well, I can't keep up, both because you're doing so many things... It used to be a lot easier to keep up. You're doing too many things for me to keep up, but also it's weird, Excel has now reached the point where it's not the app that I spend the most time in on my computer. I'm in Power BI, I'm in Outlook, I'm in PowerPoint a lot. I'm a mascot. The people who work at our company are so much better at the tool. So I'm not even really in Power BI that much. Brian, thank you so much.
Brian Jones (01:30:29):
Yeah. This was fun, man. It was great catching up.
Rob Collie (01:30:31):
I think people are going to enjoy this, and if they don't, we won't know.
Brian Jones (01:30:34):
All right.
Thomas Larock (01:30:35):
Yeah, right.
Brian Jones (01:30:38):
It's like how we used to ship software, right?
Rob Collie (01:30:39):
Yeah. That's right. Actually-
Brian Jones (01:30:40):
Throw it out there and move on.
Rob Collie (01:30:42):
Actually, I hate to tell you, we have detailed files. We have an amazing Power BI report that uses robotic process automation, courtesy of Ash, to go export the data from the unfriendly portal. And then we power query it. We'll be able to tell you next week how you're... how you're trending.
Brian Jones (01:30:59):
Oh great.
Rob Collie (01:31:00):
Are you trending ahead of Ken Paul's or are you behind Ken Paul's. If you want to know where you rank in the world we'll tell you.
Brian Jones (01:31:07):
Please don't tell me where I'm ranking. Ignorance will be bliss.
Rob Collie (01:31:12):
Yeah. Well, just seriously, it was a real pleasure. How often do you get to talk to someone who's in your role and how often do you get to listen to someone who's in your role? I don't think very often. So I certainly appreciate it. I think our listeners will as well.
Brian Jones (01:31:25):
Well, I had fun, man. It was great catching up.
Announcer (01:31:27):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
Ashvini Sharma is one terrific human being and he knows a LOT about Robotic Process Automation (RPA). As the Group Program Manager of Power Automate RPA at Microsoft, there is no better source of information about automation than from Ash!
If you want real-world examples of what Power Automate can do, this is the episode you need to listen to.
Power Automate Desktop Download and Blog
Episode Timeline:
- 2:05 - How could anyone live without air conditioning?!, Maintaining the work/life balance is difficult
- 11:20 - Ash goes to the Excel Team and faces the challenges of his new role head-on, The Magic and Soul of Excel
- 21:05 - Ash's next pivot is RPA (Robotic Process Automation), the benefits of RPA, and some brilliant (and 1 possibly illegal) examples of RPA
- 34:05 - A Power Automate history lesson and some explanation on what it is and what it can do
- 47:30 - A little insight on how RPA was built and the cost of keeping company secrets
- 55:40 - A new segment called N Questions-Rob asks some burning questions, rapid-fire style..and some very interesting answers come out of it!
- 1:07:20 - Ash explains a "Hello World" scenario that will help many of you listening regarding automation of Export to Excel so that Power BI can pick up the refresh
- 1:13:20 - What's next for Power Automate?
We've not exactly been consistent with our episode releases as of late, and Rob sheds some light as to why. Rollercoaster doesn't even begin to describe the ride we've been on lately...
Thank you for listening and supporting Raw Data by P3 Adaptive! We will be releasing new episodes with some really great guests starting July 2oth!
Shishir is as ahead of the technology curve as it gets, some of his ideas have revolutionized the way that tech giants like Microsoft, Google, and YouTube operate. Now, he's innovating again as the founder and CEO of Coda-an amazing integrated system that centers around creating Docs that are as powerful and actionable as Apps. He's also one of the most down to Earth human beings we've ever had the pleasure of sitting down with!
References in this episode:
Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer SNL Skit
Steven Sinofsky's book-Hardcore Software: Inside the Rise and Fall of the PC Revolution
Coda Doc-No Code, Just a Coda Doc: How Squared Away Saves a Thousand Hours and $100K a Year
Coda Doc-Rituals for Hypergrowth: An Inside Look at How Youtube Scaled
Episode Timeline:
- 2:20 - Shishir's data path intersects with Rob's and the stories abound, Shishir passes on working for Google before it was Google
- 15:25 - Shishir has a random idea about advertising that eventually forms into some common advertising practices, Google woos Shishir back, and he ends up running YouTube!
- 27:25 - The value of a Computer Science degree is....debatable, an interesting definition and example of AI, and Nouns VS Verbs in naming products and features
- 41:00 - How Coda was formed and the amazing innovation that Coda is-it makes a doc as powerful as an app, and the importance of integration
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today's guest is Shishir Mehrotra, and let me tell you, Shishir is a ringer of a guest. We met back at Microsoft in the 2000s where he was already entrusted with some pretty amazing responsibilities and was doing very, very well in those roles. About the same time that I left Microsoft to start P3, Shishir left Microsoft to go ... Oh, that's right ... Run YouTube. And he was at the helm of YouTube during what he calls the hyper-growth years where YouTube really exploded and became the thing that we know it is today. During this conversation, I discovered that it certainly sounds like he invented something about YouTube that we absolutely take for granted today and has been seen by billions, used probably billions of times per day. That wasn't enough for him, so he left YouTube after a number of years and started a new company called Coda.
Rob Collie (00:00:55):
And Coda is an incredibly ambitious product. You could say that in some sense, it's aimed at being a Microsoft Office replacement, but even that isn't quite right. It's in a little bit different niche than that. And, of course, we explored that in our conversation. We talk about his billion dollar mistake, quite possibly, literally, billion dollar mistake, not many people can make those. I was thrilled to discover that he and I have basically exactly the same philosophy about nouns and verbs in software. We talk about the antiquated notion that a computer science degree is somehow super important in product management roles, even at software companies. And just, in general, I couldn't get enough of it. He was super gracious to give us his time for this show, and I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. So, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:42):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please.
Announcer (00:01:48):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host Rob Collie and your cohost Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:11):
Welcome to the show. Shishir Mehrotra, how are you today?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:02:15):
Oh, I'm great.
Rob Collie (00:02:16):
Are you coming to us from Silicon Valley?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:02:17):
I am. Well, south of California. Been in my house and in this spot for about the last year.
Rob Collie (00:02:23):
When did we meet?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:02:24):
You were working on Excel and I think at the time I was working on WinFS, the early days of Microsoft.
Rob Collie (00:02:31):
Oh, WinFS. Just completely unexpected sidelight. It was like 1998 or maybe 1999, we're in a review with Jim [Allchin 00:02:42] and all of his lieutenants. And the whole point of this meeting is to assassinate the technology I was working on. This was an arranged hit on MSI ...
Shishir Mehrotra (00:02:54):
[crosstalk 00:02:54]. On MSI.
Rob Collie (00:02:55):
... On the Windows Installer, right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:02:56):
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:57):
And there are factions in this room that have had their knives, they've been sharpening them and they've arranged this moment so they can kill us. And, at one point, one of the complaints about us was our heavy use of the registry. Just poisoning the registry. Do you remember a guy named Rob [Short 00:03:15]?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:03:15):
Yeah, of course.
Rob Collie (00:03:16):
I really liked Rob Short. I thought he was awesome. He was a tough guy, but also really fair and funny and friendly at the same time. And he's been sitting in this meeting for hours because he has to, and he's just totally tuned out. Of course he would be, right? It's not about him. And then, this mention of the registry as an attack on us comes up and Jim Allchin immediately whirls around to Rob and goes, "Now you see, this is what I'm talking about. Our storage system is such a piece of shit." And he starts ripping it to Rob and Rob's having to wake up from his trance. It's like suddenly the guns can swing so fast in those meetings.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:03:55):
I mean, that was a use case that Bill and Jim and so on all tried to push on WinFS, but it was one we actively resisted. It's a hard one.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
It is. The worst thing in the world is to have state stored in multiple places that have to go together with each other. Right? That just turns out to be one of the hardest problems.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:04:11):
It's such a critical element of the operating system. And you end up with all sorts of other issues of what can run on what and ...
Rob Collie (00:04:17):
And it's funny. The registry was basically my introduction to the entire Win32 platform. When I was running the installer, that's all I knew about. I knew about the type library registrations and the registry. I knew it in class IDs. And I could follow those things. I could follow that rabbit's trail from one place to another without ever really understanding what a class ID was. Right? It was just the registration of an object, right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:04:40):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:04:40):
I didn't learn that until years later. So funny. But then we crossed paths again. Right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:04:45):
SQL.
Rob Collie (00:04:46):
I remember how it happened. Ariel [Nets 00:04:49] came into my office and said, "Hey, there's someone important who's going to need some information from you." And I go, "Okay." And he said something like, "He's a real rising star here, so make sure you give him everything he needs." And I'm like, "Okay."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:05:05):
I don't think I know this half of the story. Okay.
Rob Collie (00:05:09):
And I think you were somehow involved with the potential acquisition that was going on at the time. Is that true?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:05:14):
You talking about in-memory BI?
Rob Collie (00:05:16):
Yeah.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:05:16):
Yeah. I was at the time ... Maybe for your listeners. So, my history, after WinFS folded and collapsed, and you can talk about that if you'd like, I ended up being unexpectedly merged into the SQL Server division. I ended up running what Microsoft called the program management team or SQL Server. And it was super interesting for me because I was never really a database guy. Everything I had worked on to that point was fairly end user-centered, infrastructure in the background. And I was surrounded by these people that really love databases. Actually, as a side note, I fell in love with databases because of Paul Flessner. Paul was on his way out. He was retiring that year and he had one last ... At the time we used to call them strategy days so that Bill and Steve and so on would post this annual review.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:06:01):
And Paul Flessner, he decided this was going to be his last hurrah strategy, "I'm going to tell these people exactly what I think." He's in the middle of preparing for this and WinFS is folding up and he says, "While you're figuring out what you're going to do next, why don't you come help me write the strategy days presentation?" And he was really drawn to the idea of someone that actually wasn't in his organization doing it because I could speak my mind about whatever and I had no bias walking into it. And probably from his perspective, I would write whatever the hell he wanted and make it sound good. This guy, he's a database legend. He drove the Sybase acquisition that turned into SQL Server. And so, he had a list of ideas for how to think about the database market that many of which were pretty ascetical.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:06:44):
And he spoke in very plain language when he's ... Actually, interestingly, he's retired. [inaudible 00:06:48] his woodworking. That's his thing. He builds chairs and tables are amazing. You can go buy them. As opposed to many techie database guys, he speaks in very plain language.
Rob Collie (00:06:55):
I love that.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:06:56):
And you just walk through like, "Here's how to think about the different workloads and here's what's happening in the industry and here's what's happening in data warehousing." Which wasn't really a term at the time and data warehousing was just emerging. And then, at the end of that process, we had a pretty successful strategy days and he said, "Why don't you run the PM team and help my new guy?" Ted Kummert came in to go and run SQL Server after Paul. And that's how I ended up in that spot. And as part of that, I ended up covering a lot of ... One of Paul's last statement was, "Data warehousing is not the same thing. Go do something different." And that's where people like Ariel and Amir and so on, that whole division, Tom ... And there was a bunch of people running that at that time ... Came into play.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:07:34):
And then they had this idea that ... There's a lot of different things to know about SQL Server. SQL Server is not actually well-built for data warehouse and so most databases are not. And at the time, the raining wisdom was you needed a completely different architecture for business intelligence, which I guess we called OLAP back then. I don't know if that term is still used.
Rob Collie (00:07:54):
Yeah. Oh, we still do. We just hide it. It's a dirty word.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:07:57):
Yeah. For the geeky folks out there, and the key difference being that instead of storing things row by row, you store things column by column and you also precalculate aggregate. So, you have some sense of what, I guess, nowadays called the cube. These things are likely to be great for, "We're going to precalculate the sum of orders for customers by region or whatever it might be." And then, Ariel and his brother Amir had this idea and they said, "Hey, we've got this strategic advantage at Microsoft, which is we own the front end and the backend of this architecture. On the backend, we need to be able to scale better and we need to move to column storage and do all this fancy stuff with cubes. But if you ask anybody where all of their analysis actually gets done, what do they say?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:08:38):
There's 1,000 reporting tools out there but everybody lives in Excel. And so, they said, "What if we were to find a creative way to pull these together? And I think at the time you were running this part of the Excel platform. And so, I was sent in to go figure out how to make this pitch. I mean, these guys really wanted to do an acquisition space and so on. And I was sent in to try to make the pitch. And, actually, the insight there was interesting. Amir came up with this chart, which I'm not really sure where it came from but he basically went and looked at the size of cubes of OLAP instances across a wide set of customers, including all of Microsoft. He pulled all of these different ones and he figured out that the biggest cube at Microsoft was this thing called MS Sales.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:09:20):
It was all the customer data from Microsoft if you remember well. And he said, "If you compress this down with column storage, I'm going to get the numbers wrong." But it fit inside tens of megabytes of storage, which was previously much, much larger if you did as row storage. And he said, "This is so small that it can fit in memory on a client, which was unheard of. Usually, the whole idea behind these systems was you have to query a server. The server is really big. At that time, a lot of systems go up and scaled out. There's often very big hardware back there as well. And he said, "Hey, I bet we could move to a model where the primary way that people do this analysis actually happens in that place where they actually want to do their work in Excel. So, I think that's where the other half of that conversation from my side was coming from.
Rob Collie (00:10:06):
Yeah. So, like you said, with Paul Flessner bringing you into right part of the strategy days stuff, Amir was, at that point in time, still using me in the same way. I had come over from the Excel world and so he was trotting me out every time he wanted someone to talk about Excel in a way that he couldn't be criticized. I was just almost the unfrozen caveman lawyer from Saturday Night Live, this Forrest Gump figure, "Listen, I don't know much, but I do know Excel and I know the people." You know?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:10:32):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:33):
Usually, because on the SQL side of the house, you couldn't argue with me about Excel. If I go back to the Excel world, they'd all argue with me but on the sequel side, I was unquestioned. So, Ariel was right, he said, "This guy is a mover and shaker. He's going places." And then, an eye blink later, you're at YouTube. When did you end up at YouTube?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:10:53):
So, there's a personal story arc that goes along with this. I started a company out of school called [Sintrata 00:10:58]. It was an early version of what became AWS, Azure, so on, to utility computing. There's a whole generation company that started back in that '99, 2000 period. All of us were seven to 10 years too early. There was no virtualization, no containers and none of the underlying technology that actually made the cloud take off existed yet. As that was wrapping up is how I got to Microsoft but in that period, Sintrata was funded by this famous venture firm called Kleiner Perkins.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:11:23):
My primary investor was a [inaudible 00:11:24]. [inaudible 00:11:25] as Sintrata was wrapping up, he had suggested, "Why don't you go join another client or company?" And I said, "Which one?" And he said, "Well, you can look at all of them but the one that's really hot right now is these two Stanford guys are creating this new search engines called Google. Might want to check it out." And so this is back in 2002. And so, went over and spent some time with Larry and Sergey. And at the time, they hadn't hired a single outside product manager. And so, they wanted me to come in and start the product management team there. And, interestingly, I turned them down. My wife likes to call my billion dollar mistake. And instead I got drawn to Microsoft.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:12:01):
As I got drawn to Microsoft, it's related to this story because I had an old boss of mine, I was an intern at Microsoft when I was in college, and he was starting this new thing called Gideon that was in the Office team actually. And the project would turn Office into a front end for business applications. So, it's had a lot of relevance to what ended up happening in that space.
Rob Collie (00:12:18):
Who was running Gideon? Who was that?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:12:20):
Satya was our skip-level boss and this was much, much earlier in his career. And the guy actually running the project was a guy named John [Lacada 00:12:27]. I think he's gone now. I don't know where he is. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:12:29):
I worked with John quite a bit over the years [crosstalk 00:12:32]. And this is how you know Danny Simmons. Right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:12:34):
That's right. Danny was part of that team.
Rob Collie (00:12:36):
Oh my gosh! Yeah.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:12:36):
Yeah. Danny was on that team. I ended up working with Danny multiple times. Mike Hewitt was the one who was my intern manager who pulled me over to the project. Actually, as a fun version of fate or whatever, Mike now works at Coda. [crosstalk 00:12:48]-
Rob Collie (00:12:48):
Does he really?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:12:49):
Yeah, he's an engineer here. He's great. He lives in Idaho. Once we really started hiring distributed, I finally managed to pull him into Coda. So, I turned on Google in that period and they didn't let up. Basically, every year they would call and say, "Hey, we got something down here for you." Gideon actually didn't have a very positive outcome. I showed up to work on this thing and nine months later, Sinofsky killed it. Given the priorities Office had at the time, it made reasonable sense, but it was my first education of big company politics and that's how I ended up working at WinFS.
Rob Collie (00:13:20):
Sinofsky has delivered many such educations of big company politics.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:13:24):
Yes. Yes. For sure. For sure.
Rob Collie (00:13:26):
One of his primary contributions. Yes.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:13:27):
So, are you reading his history of Microsoft [inaudible 00:13:30]?
Rob Collie (00:13:30):
I haven't been but now I will be.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:13:32):
Oh, you should. It's good. Steve and I didn't always see eye to eye on everything, but his sense of history is really good. I don't know how the hell he remembered so much stuff, but he's basically publishing a new thing every few days, I think, maybe every week, and it's really good.
Rob Collie (00:13:44):
I both loved Stephen and was terrified of him at the same time.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:13:48):
It's common.
Rob Collie (00:13:49):
Yeah.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:13:50):
So, I'm working on SQL Server, but the reason all that matters is I was committed to Seattle. I had convinced my, at the time, fiance now wife, to move up to Seattle. She's a physician. So, she was doing her residency at Children's Seattle. And I convinced her to stay and do her fellowship and that all ran out. So, my clock ran out on Seattle. Said, "All right, now we're ready to move." And we had presumed we were going to move to the Bay area. So, it was just implied at the time, if you're going to be a techie, you got to move down to the Bay Area at some point. And I thought I was going to start another company. I was ready to do it again but Jonathan Rosenberg, the guy at Google who ended up running product there, he called me, he said, "Oh, if you're thinking about coming back, why don't you just come meet a few people?"
Shishir Mehrotra (00:14:28):
And I said, "No, I've been doing the big company thing for a while. I don't think I want to do that anymore." And he said, "No, no, no, no. Google is not that big a company." This is 2007, 2008. And he said, "Google is not that big of a company. Come just meet a few people and nothing else and have some good conversations." And so, I went down, met a bunch of people and this was Larry and Sergey but also Vic Gundotra was there then and Andy Rubin had just joined. And there was a bunch of ... That era of Google was being formed. And I end up, at the end of the day, in Jonathan's office and I tell him, "That was really entertaining, but it feels like a big company. I don't think this is for me." Jonathan's a pretty crass person. I won't use the same language he used but he said, "Oh, that's really effing stupid."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:15:06):
And I said, "Why?" And he said, "Well, look, and I'll just give you a really simple reason. All those people, they probably talk to you about Android and Chrome and all this other stuff but what they forget is that, at the heart, Google sells advertising and all the money in advertising goes to television. And nobody even watches those stupid ads." This may sound dumb, but maybe not to this group. I didn't know that. For me, I'd never bought or sold an ad in my life. And the idea that all of the money and advertising goes to television was news to me. And I got on a plane after work back to Seattle. I do a lot of my thinking on planes for weird reasons. You may be the same. I don't know.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:15:40):
But I get on the plane, I take out this little sheet of paper and this was a week after the Super Bowl, February of 2008, the Giants had just beaten the Pats in this epic Super Bowl. And I take out the sheet of paper, I write at the top, how come advertising doesn't feel like a Super Bowl every day? And the basic thing I was thinking about was we had our friends over for Super Bowl and while we're watching the game, the ad would come on, if somebody missed it, I would have to rewind for people to watch the ad again. It's like, "Oh, people actually like the ads in this one day of the year. What's different?" And so, I take out this sheet of paper, I end up writing this little position paper on what I think is wrong with advertising, without knowing really anything about advertising. Get home, it's pretty late. My wife's not up to tell me it was all stupid.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:16:19):
And then I wake up the next morning and I write to Jonathan. I say, "Hey, look, I really enjoyed the time. I don't think Google's for me, but I had some thoughts on something you said that stuck with me about why advertising sucks. And I'm sure you guys are already thinking about it, but I'm happy to send it to you if you'd like." And he's pretty early morning guy and so he read it and said, "Actually, nobody's thinking about this. Maybe you should come and I'll give you a small team and you can start running this." There were three ideas in the paper but the most simple one was how come ads don't have a skip button on them? And then, if you skip the ad, why don't you make it so that if you skip the ad, the advertiser doesn't pay?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:16:50):
You change all the incentives of advertising so that if the ads aren't good, then nobody gets paid if the ads are going to get better. And we're going to reset the balance and that's why it's going to feel like Super Bowl every day. He was like, "There's a lot of reward and be creative on the Super Bowl." So, J.R. convinced me. He's like, "Come down. Run this project." When I tell the story, it sounds eerily similar to how I ended up at Microsoft, like, "Oh, come run this small project." And it was this group of people, again, that misunderstood what ... This project was at the time called Mosaic.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:17:19):
It became a product called Google TV. Chromecast, Google TV, Google Home, all comes out of that same group now. So, I showed up to work on that and very quickly in that process realized that this had actually very poor corporate sponsorship as well. In this case, Larry and Sergey thought this product was really, really dumb. I should have known as I was going through the interview process. And so, I told J.R. and I was excited about the project and I said, "Hey, maybe I should talk to Larry and Sergey about that, a bunch of ideas and other stuff if I met them." He's like, "Oh yeah, they're traveling this week." I was like, "Really? Okay." And every time I asked, he was avoiding me talking to them about the project. But, anyway, so I show up to work on that and it's very long story out, but this paper leads to me working on this project.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:17:57):
And then, just, basically, we decided to merge the project into YouTube. And back in 2008, to a very side door, end up initially running the monetization team and eventually running the rest of the team for YouTube and then spending six years there and growing that business, which was ... At the time, when I joined YouTube, it was the weird stepchild of Google. It was generally thought of as the first bad acquisition that Google made. Until then we had this string of amazing acquisitions led to Maps and Android and all this stuff. YouTube was a weird one, right? It was the, we lost hundreds of millions of dollars a year. It was dogs on skateboards. We had a billion dollar lawsuit from Viacom.
Rob Collie (00:18:35):
Mark Cuban famously said it's never going to go anywhere.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:18:38):
I have very fun stories with Mark Cuban. It was two years after I left YouTube where he finally wrote me and said, "Actually, I think you might've been right." He was quite convinced we were wrong about it. But, anyway, so I ended up working on YouTube. I'd never bought or sold an ad in my life, knew nothing about video and an infrastructure guy in the previous career, and ended up working on YouTube for six years.
Rob Collie (00:19:02):
It's a really interesting thing, right? Sometimes not knowing a lot about an industry or a topic is actually fantastic because you don't bring all the baggage and all the preconceptions. Of course, you can't just go all in on that. If you never know anything about anything, you're just someone wandering around the world with a loud voice. And so, getting the right balance between knowing what you should know and not knowing the things that will throw you off, if we could get that mix right at all times in our lives, we'd be in great shape, but it's tricky, isn't it?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:19:32):
You've roughly described my career. Almost every job I took was in a space I knew nothing about. And it's a very positive interpretation of this person who has to learn every piece of this. But yeah, I think a beginner's eye allows you to look at a space a little bit differently and it certainly worked out at YouTube. And we were walking the trends of the video industry in every way, how we thought about content, how we thought about monetization, and what is good content? What is not good content? Our views on these things were diametrically opposite of every assumption that had been made by every experienced person in that industry. I think we turned out to be more right than wrong.
Rob Collie (00:20:07):
Oh my gosh! Yeah. Now, a few things jumped out at me from that story. First of all, if we think about it with the perfection of hindsight, the clarity of hindsight, basically, Google ran this really sick reverse auction for your services where they like, "If you come here now we'll pay you a billion dollars." And you're like, "Hmm, no." Right? And then-
Shishir Mehrotra (00:20:30):
It wasn't obvious that it was going to be a billion dollars.
Rob Collie (00:20:30):
I know. Then they call you back a year later and they say, "Okay. Fine. How about 100 million?" And you're like, "Hmm, no." And they finally got it down low enough for you to take the job. I've never met anybody who has a story where you can even joke about a billion dollar mistake. So, I'll never have the opportunity to recruit you, but if I did, now I know how.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:20:56):
[crosstalk 00:20:56] blowing your offer. That's right. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:20:59):
And it's got to include the words, just come run this small, little team.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:21:03):
Yeah. Yeah. I get drawn to projects. I don't get drawn to the rest of it. So far it's worked out okay. But yeah, I get drawn to ideas. I mean, this is really only the fourth company I've ever worked for yet every transition was drawn by some idea that I couldn't stop thinking about.
Rob Collie (00:21:17):
That idea or position statement, is that in some way, at the beginning, the origin story of the skip button for ads?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:21:27):
Oh yeah. I mean, the skip button for ads it's now called TrueView. Back to your point on beginner's mind. So, I show up, I've got this idea around the skip button and actually it makes more sense for YouTube than it does for this Google TV thing that we were working on. So, there's totally reasonable outcome. I show up and my first meeting with the sales team, I'm maybe six weeks in, the head of sales, Susie, she says, "Can you come give a talk to sales team and just tell a little bit about your vision for YouTube." And we had a nice ... And I said, "Look, I don't think this is a good idea. I don't know anything about this part of the industry. So, I'm going to make a fool of myself." And she's, "No, no, no. You have got all these great ideas and they're fresh and different and why don't you come talk to them?"
Shishir Mehrotra (00:22:04):
And I go talk about a bunch of different ideas, and I talk about this one about skip buttons on ads. And one of the salespeople, who I've since become very good friends with, she raises her hand and she says, "Wait, I don't understand. Do you want none of us to make any money?" They thought this was the dumbest idea on the planet. You put a skip button on ads, people are going to hit the skip button. It's like that's what obviously is going to happen. And, basically, the entire sales force rejected this idea. And it took me three years to ship that feature because every person in the sales force thought it was such a dumb idea. I would get told, "You can come talk at the sales conference, but you're not allowed to talk about your stupid skip button idea. You have to talk about everything else."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:22:43):
And what turned out was ... This is actually another fun story in great product managers. I don't know if you still think of yourself as a PM, but I consider you to be a really strong product manager as well. But this is a story about a guy, Lane Shackleton, who actually now runs product at Coda. So, Lane was a sales guy. He was actually our primary sales guy at YouTube. And he really wanted to be a PM. And at the time, we had this really stupid policy where you weren't allowed to be a product manager at Google unless you had a CS degree. It was just part of the early, early viewpoint the founders had.
Rob Collie (00:23:17):
So relevant.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:23:21):
Right. So, you commiserate with this a lot. So, Lane comes to me and says, "I want to be a PM. How do I do it?" And I said, "Hey, look, I mean, I love you and I think you could do a great job but I've got this policy. And I got to make a really strong case if I'm going to get over the policy." And he said, "How about I just do it on the side? Do it as a trial run." He gave me an idea. I said, "Okay, I'll make a deal with you. I'll let you try to be a PM, but you have to do it in your 20% time. And not in your 80-20% time, but you got to do a great job of your sales job and then you do this part. And the second criteria is you take whatever project I give you."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:23:52):
And he said, "All right, deal. What's the project?" I said, "Okay, I want you to work on this thing called skippable ads." And I said, "Look, the sales team thinks it's really dumb because the way that the division work, the engineering leader was like, "I'm not allocating stuff that the sales team thinks is dumb. And so, I can give you one engineer who is a new grad and that's it." But I have a playbook for you. I think you need to go and you just go talk to the AdWords team and get this thing out of the buying experience and then work on this with the analytics and figure just these couple pieces out. And we'll be able to ship this thing and we'll slowly build up the business. It'll be fine."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:24:23):
And so, he goes away and he comes back a couple of weeks later for his update. And I said, "Oh, how's it going? Did you talk to the AdWords team?" And he said, "No, actually, I decided that's not the problem here." And I said, "What do you mean? That was your job. Go talk to those different people." And he says, "Well, I've been thinking about it and I think the real problem here is the name is wrong." I was like, "The name? What are you talking about? We'll name this thing later. This is not that important." And he says, "No, no, I think the problem is that skippable ad is a value proposition to an end user but who buys advertising? The advertiser buys advertising. Skippable is actually a really poor value proposition to the advertiser. Why would I want my ad to be skipped? Right? And so, the reason you're hearing so much negative reaction if people don't understand why it's helpful to the advertiser."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:25:06):
And so then he came up with this idea and said, "Why don't we name it TrueView?" And I'm skipping a whole bunch of parts in the story, but we call it TrueView. That's what the ad for one is actually called. You have no idea what ads are called, right? Oh, there's ads on Google. Nobody knows [crosstalk 00:25:18] from AdWord.
Rob Collie (00:25:18):
Yeah. It's not a feature. Yeah.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:25:19):
But what's a sponsored story? And you don't know any of that stuff. You just know it's an ad. And he said, "So, let's focus on the advertising." Came up with this name TrueView. And the idea is very simple is you only pay per true views. You don't pay for the junk, you only pay for the real ones. Right? And all of a sudden this thing went from being, I'm not allowed to talk about it at sales conferences to the number one thing on the entire sales force [inaudible 00:25:42] all of Google. Beyond anything the average team was working on.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:25:45):
And it was such a simple idea. And, by the way, the way the math works is very simple, it's most people do skip the ad. It's about 80% skip rates on those ads. So, four out of five times you see an ad, you probably have a skip button, but it turns out that the 20% of the time you don't is such high signal and so effective an ad that you can often charge something like 20 times as much for that view. And so, what you end up with is you end up with you just take that math and say, [inaudible 00:26:09] four times better monetization with a skippable ad than without a skippable ad.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:26:13):
It was not obvious that advertisers would be willing to pay that much more if they know you actually watched the ad but when you start ... But this is a good example, again, a beginner's mind and, Lane, I mean, this is one of his ... So, I've managed to convince the calibration committees and so on and turned to a product manager and turned into a great product manager. He joined me early on at Coda and now runs the product and design team here. Great example of coming fresh to a new problem.
Rob Collie (00:26:36):
Yeah. Well, if only he'd had a computer science degree, that idea would have been so much smarter. You know?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:26:43):
Yeah. The crazy part, this is one of the most technical guys I know and he's like, "I don't understand. I write this stuff on the side. Why do I need a stupid degree for that?" Right?
Rob Collie (00:26:53):
I know. There was one time in my first three years at Microsoft where I used one piece of my computer science education, one time. I used O notation to prove that we shouldn't do it a certain way. And when I got my way after using O notation, it's like, "This is an O of N squared algorithm." I got to run around the hallways chanting, like, "Whoa, look, my education, it worked. It worked. It worked." And that was the only time I ever used any of that. So, no, that's a silly policy.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:27:25):
Yeah. It was funny, when I was going to college, my parents were both computer scientists and I was one of those kids who grew up with a ... I never knew what I wanted to be. One week I was going to be a lawyer, then I was going to be a doctor, then I was going to be a scary period for my mom where I really wanted to be a taxi driver. I went through all the different periods. And then, I'm filling out my college applications and it says like, "What do you want to major in?" And I said, "Oh, I think I'll write down CS." I was into computers at the time and so I write down CS. And my dad says, "If you major in CS, I'm not paying for college." What are you talking about? I thought you'd be really excited.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:27:57):
That's what you guys do. My dad now runs supercomputing for NASA. I thought this would be pretty exciting for you. And he says, "No, no, no. This is a practitioner's degree. I'm not paying for college unless you major in something where the books are at least 50 years old." And that was the policy. And so, I ended up majoring in math and computer science. And from his perspective, he paid for a math degree and I happened to get the CS degree for free. But his view was that ... Which is true ... Computer science changes so fundamentally every 10 years.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:28:22):
And my classes the professors often taught out of the book that they're about to publish. The book wasn't even published yet and they're like, "Oh, here's the new way to think about operating systems." And it was totally different than what it was five years ago. I think there's a lot of knowledge in CS degrees but I actually think ... O notation is an example. I used to teach that class at school. That's math. That's not CS.
Rob Collie (00:28:42):
I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:28:44):
It's a very good way to think about isotonic functions but the actual CS knowledge is all but relevant by the time you graduate.
Rob Collie (00:28:51):
One thing that you said to me about your time at YouTube that stuck with me years, years, years, years later is that here we are at the tip of the spear, the head of this giant organization and YouTube eventually became giant, and with all this amazing machine learning and just so much algorithmic, not even complexity, but also just we don't even know what it's doing anymore. It's so sophisticated that we can't even explain why it's making these decisions but they're doing well, and yet every day we get together, we're looking at simple pivot tables and there's these knobs on the sides of these giant algorithmic machines that some human being has to set to, like, "Should we set it to six or seven?" And it's just this judgment call. And I just love that. That was, in a weird way, so reassuring to me that even at the absolute top of the pyramid of the algorithmic world, there's still a need for this other stuff.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:29:43):
The most fun example of this, backing for a moment, my dad, back to the story of me going into CS. At one point I had asked him, what is artificial intelligence? And he said, "Well, artificial intelligence is this really hard to describe field." I asked, "Why is that?" And he said, "Well, because it's got this characteristic that the moment something works, it's no longer AI." And so, AI is what's left is all the stuff that doesn't work. And so, you can use all these examples of when you have all regressions, it's like, "That's just math. That's not AI. We understand how it works." My favorite example with the kids is when you drive up to the traffic light, how does it know when to turn red and green and so on?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:30:19):
Oh, there's a sensor there. It just senses the cars there and so then it decides to turn red or green. That's not AI. I know how that works. I can describe it. It's a sensor. And so, we went through, I think, decades of time where the moment something worked, it stopped getting called AI. And then, some point, 10, 15 years ago, I'd say 10, we flipped it. And now, all of a sudden, anything that does math is AI. And it's amazing to me that we would look at some of these systems and it was literally a simple regression and we say, "Oh, that's machine learning." And it became very invoked. I think about it that way.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:30:53):
I mean, there are some really complicated machine learning techniques and the way our neural network works, which is the heart of how most of these machine learning techniques work is very complicated, but at the heart of what it's doing, it's approximation function for a multi-variable phenomenon. So, the most fun example I can tell you about your observation there is this project called DALS. DALS was an acronym for Dynamic Ad Load System where at the time, on YouTube, the rate at which we showed ads was contractually set. We would go negotiate with the creator and say, "Oh, ESPN, we want your content on YouTube." And we would say, "Look, our policy is we show ads every seven minutes." And they say, "No, our content is so good. We want it every two minutes."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:31:32):
And then, the Disney folks would have their own number. And so, there is this long line of contractual stuff baked into our ad serving logic that's like, "Oh, it's been two minutes. You have to show an ad." Because they all just thought they knew better of how good their content was. And so, one of the engineers had this idea and said, "This is dumb." We know our intentions are well aligned. Almost all our deals were rev share deals. We made money when the creator made money. And we know whether or not this is a good time to show an ad or not, why don't we turn this into a machine learning system and guess whether or not we should show an ad? So, it's called Dynamic Ad Load System. DALS was its acronym. So, the team goes off and this engineer goes off and builds this thing.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:32:08):
Lexi was his name. So, Lexi builds this thing and he brings it to one of our staff reviews. Every Friday, we had this meeting of IT staff. That's where we went through all the major stats for the business and including any major experiments that are running. If he brings something in and he says, "All right, before we launch this thing, I'd like to know what our trade-off function." The trade-off function in this case is, how much watch time are you willing to trade off for revenue? These are two primary metrics. At every moment we're going to decide, should we show an ad or not? And we have to make a guess at, "We think if we don't show an ad you'll watch for this much longer, if we do show an ad, there's a chance you'll leave but we'll make this much money. So, what's the number? How much should we trade off?"
Shishir Mehrotra (00:32:45):
This is a very typical question I would get in this forum. It's impossible to answer, how much would you trade off? Watch time, revenue. And so, I came up with a number and I put a slope on this chart and we decided two for one. I can't remember whether it was two points of watch time for one point of revenue. But whichever way it was, I do a slope and we got a lot of reaction. They're like, "Okay. Great." And they ran away from the room. "Okay. We have a number. We can go do our thing." And so, they come back a few weeks later and say that we're ready to launch. And I said, "Okay, so did you hit the number?" And they said, "Well, actually, we have some interesting news for you. Turns out in our first tuning of the system, we actually have a tuning that is positive on both watch time and revenue. And somehow by redeploying the system, we make more money and people watch longer."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:33:25):
And I said, "Really? How does that happen?" And they said, "Well, we don't really know yet, but can we ship because clearly better than your ratio?" And I said, "Well, okay, you can ship but next week I want you to come back and tell me why." And so, next week they come back and I said, "Do you know why?" And they said, "Well, we don't know why, but we have another tuning and it's even better on both watch time and revenue. I was thinking we ship this one."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:33:47):
I was like, "Okay, but please come back next week." This went on for four weeks. Right? So every week they would come back and they'd say, "Okay, we got this thing. It's even better on both. And we still have no idea why." And, finally, they figured out why. And it turns out that basically what was happening was the system was learning to push ads later in people's sessions. If you watch YouTube for a while, early on, you'll see very little advertising. But if you sit there and watch for hours and hours and hours, the ad frequency will gradually increase with a viewpoint of, this person's not going anywhere. They're committed, which makes intuitive sense, but it wasn't an input that we handed the system.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:34:18):
And how did we figure that out? The pivot table. I notice that the ... What did we do? We went and charted everything we could out of the experiment group and in our experiment group and we just guessed at what is the way to figure out why is this happening? Because it's not a signal that we were intentionally giving the system, it's just the system got every other signal it could. And we looked at everything. I mean, is it geography? Is it tied to content? Is it age? Is it ... How is it possible that we're showing more ads and people are watching for longer? That story is a lesson in a number of different things. I mean, I think it was a great lesson in how when people think about machine learning systems, they miss this element of ... Any machine learning system is just a function.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:34:54):
All the ML system does is take a very large set of inputs, apply a function to it and generate an output. Generally, that output is a decision, show an ad, don't show an ad. Self-driving car turn right or turn left. It's some decisions of, is this image a person or an animal? And that system is trained and is trained on a bunch of data. And at some point, somebody, usually fairly low in an organization, makes the tuning decision and says, "I'm willing to accept this much being wrong for this much being right." Generally called precision recall. More layman's term for it is you figured out your false positive rate versus your false negative rate for whatever system you're trying to figure out. But somebody has to make a decision.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:35:30):
It's usually three tunings, very deep in the system. And then, after that point, the system is unexplainable. You have no idea how this thing works. And so, what do you do then? You go look at a bunch of empirical data of what's happening and try to figure out, "What did I just do? I've got this thing and what's actually happening here?" And you try to figure out, is it doing what you actually want it to do? And all of that is done in fancy pivot tables.
Rob Collie (00:35:53):
Yeah. It's so funny, the AI, and you've said before, your dad, as soon as it reaches a equilibrium, it's not AI anymore.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:36:00):
Right. Not anymore.
Rob Collie (00:36:02):
Now though, it seems like it's a funny thing that you built these systems that then figure things out and they seem to be working great but then they can't turn around and explain to you what they're doing. It's not built to explain. It's just built to do.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:36:15):
It makes some sense how the human brain works. Why did you do that? I don't know. I just did it. And when you're running a business, that's not an acceptable answer. I need to know why did it go that way instead of ... Why did it turn right? I need to know why. So, you end up with this interesting tuning and then you're constantly looking at charts of output, what is going on here? To try to figure out whether it's working the way you want it.
Rob Collie (00:36:34):
So, while we're on pivot tables for a moment, go back to your story about skippable ads. This is TrueView. Imagine how much better off we would be as a society if pivot tables had originally been named summary tables.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:36:50):
Oh man.
Rob Collie (00:36:51):
You know? That one was blown.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:36:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:36:54):
I actually tried to rename it stupidly. I mean, it was too late. It was way too late. And I fought that battle for way too long. It was a fool's errand to try to rename something that had been in the world for that long but what does it mean to pivot data? No one knows.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:37:08):
It's now the insider's club handshake.
Rob Collie (00:37:12):
I know. I know. I think we probably lost half of the people who would have used them just in the name.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:37:17):
It's interesting you say that because the way we do the equivalence in Coda, we don't use the term pivot at all. We call it grouping. We don't even call it a thing. Right? We don't give it a noun name. We give it a verb name. And it just turns out that grouping a table is a very understandable phenomenon. In Coda, our model of grouping doesn't require aggregates also turns out ... And the reason I don't love the word summary is I actually think most commonly what you want to do is you take a set of records and you say, "I've got a bunch of tasks. Let me sort them by in progress and done." And I still want to be able to see the tasks. And one of the things pivot table, I think screwed up, is that you can't see the tasks anymore. The moment you're in that world ...
Rob Collie (00:37:55):
Yeah. I agree. But given what was built, the pivot table implementation, right? Summary would have been the killer name, right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:38:02):
Would have been a much better name. What would you have named VLOOKUP to?
Rob Collie (00:38:05):
Oh, I don't know. Pivots is still relevant to me, VLOOKUP not as much. No. But like Bill Gates always pressing for the unification of grouping in Excel with pivots. And we were always like, "Hmm, no." And it became a running joke after a while, he'd be like, "To the extent that you guys on Excel ever do anything that I ask you." That would be his preamble to some of the things he would say to us.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:38:33):
I mean, I would say, nowadays, people use pivot for lots of things, but for our first year for the customer journey, our grouping feature was definitely the top of the list. And, honestly, there's a bunch of people who, like you said, never really understood pivot tables and could never compare the two, like, "Oh, that makes total sense to me. I drew up a table. That makes total sense." Then two, to show aggregates.
Rob Collie (00:38:50):
The way you zeroed in on noun versus verb, that actually has come up multiple, multiple times on this show. It's one of my things. My new hires, when they'd come to work for me on the Excel team, I would sit them down and say, "Listen, you are not allowed to introduce nouns into this product. If you want a new noun, you've got to come to me. You got to fight me for it. You can verb all you want." That was hard one knowledge. I was a noun guy coming out of computer science school. Computer science people love them some nouns. Entities. Just say the word entity and you get all gooey inside, but no, it's a verb world.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:39:26):
I make that specific statement, you can ask my team, all the time. You're going to add a new noun, you got to come through me. I mean, on YouTube, it was interesting because YouTube has three primary nouns, video, channel and playlist. And we spent forever ... For a long time video was the only noun that mattered. And it was a big debate over which one matters more, channel or playlist. And I made the team pick. You got to pick one. We picked channel, which is probably obvious. Playlists are these long forgotten feature of YouTube and channels are now a big deal. But that wasn't always true. Channels actually used to be a very small deal on YouTube. If you go back to what I do in 2008, yeah, you would publish a video, it's like, "A channel, whatever." Totally bit my fingers on this channel, but it has nothing else on it.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:40:05):
And, nowadays, all people care about on YouTube is like, "This is my channel. How many subscribers I have." And the same way with Coda, we've put a lot of energy into as few nouns as possible. We'd use common language for nouns, only brand the ones that you really, really, really want to brand. Because there are very few branded nouns in Coda. There's lots of incentives in product development that lead to it. In a lot of companies, you get promoted on it. Like, "I invented this thing. It's now Power BI. And it's now this pivot thing." And you get a lot of feedback loop because nouns are distinguishable but it doesn't help your customers.
Rob Collie (00:40:37):
Even the technology under the hood is screaming at you, "Noun me. Noun me." It's like, I've got this really cool data structure here. It's dying to be surfaced in the ... No, no, don't do that. That's not what we do. We do not surface the technology. That's not what we're here for, but it's a powerful instinct. Really powerful. Okay. So, Coda, that's the next chapter. And that's the next place where we crossed paths. So, I actually realized that it was six years ago. I visited you in the Valley six years ago. And the reason I know it was six years ago is because one of the people who was there in the early days with you, the very beginning.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:41:18):
They're all still here, but yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:19):
Okay. Good. So, got the feel that they will be long-timers. Yeah. It was a tight bunch. It was a tight crew. The two of you were joking to them, "Maybe we should go to Burning Man this year." And I was sitting there thinking to myself, I had been invited that year to a friend's bachelor party. He was going to Burning Man. And I didn't even speak up because I was so terrified of going. I wasn't even sure if I was going to go.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:41:42):
Did you go?
Rob Collie (00:41:42):
I did. And that was 2015. So, that's how I know. It was also, I think, the first year that the Warriors had blown up down the NBA scene. So, we were sitting and watching the Warriors annihilate people after we talked. So, six years ago, you were pretty deep into this thing that's now called Coda. It was codename something else at the time that I kept getting wrong. Was it Krypton?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:42:03):
Krypton. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:42:05):
But I kept calling it Vulcan.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:42:08):
The team had such a laugh out of that.
Rob Collie (00:42:12):
I kept forgetting it was Krypton and calling it Vulcan. So, why don't you explain both to me and to our listeners what the original vision was and how and if that's evolved over time.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:42:25):
By the way that meeting was, hey, super entertaining. Rob came in and described this as Vulcan as been repeated many times in the story. But it also was super informative because you came and gave a bunch of perspective. I think probably one of the most relevant to our last discussion, one of your most interesting observations that stuck with the team was you described this person and you said, "Hey, I can walk into a room and if I ask them just a couple of questions I can split the room into two groups of people very quickly." You used to call it the data gene. And your questions were, do you know what a VLOOKUP is or do you know what a VLOOKUP is? What a pivot table is? Bad for many of the reasons we just talked about, but for the perspective of understanding how humans are evolving and so on, it was actually quite insightful that these people you just can't keep them away. They will eventually figure these things out.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:43:11):
And if you have that data gene, you will some point in your life intersect with these things and figure out what they are. The Coda founding story, so I was at YouTube and an old friend of mine, [inaudible 00:43:21] Alex DeNeui, now my co-founder at Coda, he and I have known each other for 20 plus years. We went to college together. And he's part of the founding team at Sintrata as well. Interestingly, we've worked every other job together, which is a fun pattern. So, he had started this company that got acquired by Google and he had just quit. And he was starting a new company and he'd come to me and he said, "Hey, my company's not doing that well. I'm thinking about pivoting to do something different. Can you help me brainstorm a new set of ideas?" So, we started brainstorming mostly about what he should do.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:43:49):
I was still relatively happy at Google, but I had told him, "If you pick something interesting, I'd be happy to invest or advise or help out in some way." Said this long list of ideas and we started brainstorming and at one point, one of us writes this sentence on the whiteboard, what if anyone can build a doc as powerful as an app? And that sentence ended up becoming the rallying cry for what became Krypton and then Coda. It's a very simple statement but it comes out of two primary observations. One is, I think the world runs on docs not apps. That if you go ask any team how they operate, any business, company person, so on, if you ask them how they operate, they'll immediately rattle off all the different packet software they use. "Oh, we use this thing for CRM and this thing for inventory. And we use this thing for pass tracking and so on."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:44:32):
And then, if you just sit behind them and watch them work for a day, what do they do all day? They're in documents, spreadsheets, presentations, and some communication tool. That's what they live in. And this first observation was one that was very deeply embedded in us because that's how we ran YouTube. I mean, YouTube, amongst other things was born right in the start of the Google Docs generation. I got the YouTube 2008, Google Docs is just coming out and, as I mentioned, we were the forgotten stepchild of Google, so we were allowed to do whatever we wanted but we could get no help in doing it. And so, we decided, for example, we would run our task management goal-setting process. We didn't like how OKRs worked.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:45:09):
I actually just published a whole paper on this last week. You can take a look. But we didn't like how OKRs worked. We wanted to do a different way. And so, how do we do it? We do in a big spreadsheet? I ran compensation differently at YouTube. I had this philosophy I call level independent compensation and the Google HR team allowed us to do it, but said, "We're building zero software for it." So, we did it in a network of documents and spreadsheets. One of the most fun example is if you hit flag on a YouTube video, for years, a flag on a YouTube video would show up as a row in a spreadsheet [inaudible 00:45:37] the person's desk. That's how we ran all these systems. We used to get made fun of. People are like, "Oh, look at these people. They're duct taping together documents and spreadsheets to run what became a multi-billion dollar division." I used to say like, "I actually think this is our strategic strength."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:45:49):
I mean, the reason we can plan so nimbly, the reason I can hire whoever I want, the reason we can adjust our flagging and approval system so quickly is because we didn't purchase some big bulky software to do it, we design it ourselves and turned it into something that then actually met our, at the time, current value system. So, this is observation number one, it's the world runs on docs not app, which is, by the way, not obvious to people but I feel fairly strongly about it. The second observation is that those documents surfaces haven't fundamentally changed in almost 50 years. The running joke at the company is that if Austin Powers popped out of his freezing chamber, he wouldn't know what clothes to wear or what music to listen to, but he could work a document, a spreadsheet, and a presentation just as well as anybody else could. Because everything we're looking at is metaphors that were created by the same people who created WordStar, Harvard Graphics and VisiCalc.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:46:39):
And we still have almost the exact same metaphor, which just seems crazy to me. In that same period of time, every other piece of software stack is totally different. An operating system from the '70s versus Android and iOS is unrecognizable. Databases, which we thought were pretty fundamental are completely different than they used to be. Things like search engine, social networks, none of these things even existed and yet the way that slide decks are put together, the way you navigate the spreadsheet grid and the way you think about pages and document is exactly the same as it was in the 1970s.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:47:10):
So, you take the two observations, you stick them together and you say, "Hey, we [inaudible 00:47:13] runs on these docs, not applications." And those surfaces haven't changed in almost 50 years. Something's broken. What if we started from scratch and built an entirely new type of doc based on this observation that what we are actually doing with our docs is a lot closer to what we're doing with applications than not? That was the thesis we started with. I got personally obsessed with it. I couldn't stop thinking about it. And this went from, hey, let me invest, let me help, to I quit Google and went and started but at the time with Krypton and then eventually became Coda.
Rob Collie (00:47:44):
I'm sure he recruited you at some point by saying, "How about you just come run this small team over here?"
Shishir Mehrotra (00:47:48):
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:47:51):
Those are the magic words.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:47:52):
We won't pay you at all. That's the ...
Rob Collie (00:47:54):
Something silly that occurred to me is that your Austin Powers metaphor might even be more accurate than you realize. We are now farther away, in terms of time, from the premiere of that '70s show, than that '70s show was from the time it represented.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:48:09):
I like that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:48:11):
It's crazy. We passed that point six months ago. So, when did Austin Powers the first one come out? Sometime in the '90s?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:48:17):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:48:18):
Right? And it represented a time probably 35 years before it? Probably 1964, maybe 1999. Right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:48:25):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:48:25):
So, we're almost reaching the point where we're close to the Austin Powers movie as Austin Powers was to the time. So, clearly, if we rewind 35 years, we are what? We're in the '80s, right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:48:35):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:48:36):
You're right our documents basically look like that.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:48:39):
Yeah. You and I can probably geek out on this. And I get asked a lot about why did that happen? Lots of industries saw a change. And the database industry is a great example, you wouldn't expect the database industry to change that much. Codd wrote his book in the 1970s that's still the book that every database engineer you can find will have the book up on the shelf for Codd's relational databases, and yet things like OLAP came out and cubes and it turned into a Power BI. I think what happened in the document industry ... Well, two things.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:49:05):
One, every company that wanted to innovate in that space was a platform company whose primary interest was evangelizing a platform. Microsoft didn't really want to displace Lotus and so on with a new thing, they just wanted people to use Windows. It was very important that it actually be backwards compatible with everything at Soft. The other thing that happened is we live through what I think of as a period where we're beholden to file format. And so, one of my favorite examples is Steve Jobs and Apple. I've met a bunch of people that worked on the early iWork suite. And the iWork suite, Jobs came in with a bunch of new ideas. He's like, "This is dumb. We shouldn't have a spreadsheet that's one big universal grid. We should have a bunch of separate grids that are actually a little closer to tables."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:49:45):
And so, that's how numbers worked, actually, it's not actually one universal grid, it's a bunch of separate ones. And the way he did it with pages was a little bit different. And then, Keynote, which is probably the most popular of the three is actually different from PowerPoint in those really critical ways and none of the three took off. And why didn't they take off? I mean, Jobs was pretty smart and [inaudible 00:50:02] were pretty good. I think it was really simple reason. If I build something in numbers and then I want to send it to you, I have to assume that you have a copy of numbers and that you run on a Mac and that's not a safe assumption. It hasn't really been a safe assumption for a long time. And then, Google Docs came out.
Rob Collie (00:50:16):
Which, by the way, is fundamentally what YouTube did for video. Right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:50:19):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:50:19):
I had all these delivery ...
Shishir Mehrotra (00:50:21):
Plugin.
Rob Collie (00:50:21):
... And Coda and pl ... I couldn't send you a video, trust that you'd be able to watch it.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:50:27):
And assume you could play. That's right. That's right. I mean, in that case, it was hard to send the videos because-
Rob Collie (00:50:32):
Yeah. There was a file size problem and there was also a software compatibility problem behind it.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:50:37):
Yeah. I think but in the documents phase, it's very interesting. I think Google Docs is mostly credited for teaching us the value of real-time collaboration, which I think is amazing and in retrospect, obvious innovation. And I think we were both still working at Microsoft when it first came out and all of us were super skeptical like, "Why would anybody want to co-edit a spreadsheet? That seems weird. What if they make a mistake?" And it just turns out it actually works just fine. And people avoid each other well and versioning systems can handle things and you don't need to have a bunch of merge conflicts and all that stuff just works. But, actually, I think the thing that Google Docs did for the industry is they taught us that there's no such thing as a file format. And if I send you a link to a Google Doc, you don't need to worry about whether or not anybody has anything installed and it's all just you could open it and use it.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:51:23):
And I think that unshackled a whole industry that had been stuck in, you could call it the fax machine world where you just had to produce things that the other side had a receiver for. And so, I think that moment of opening ... I mean, in retrospect, we started crypto in 2014 and I think we felt it then but I don't think we quite understood how dramatic a change that was. I mean, I think right now our industry is going through probably the most fundamental rethink of productivity that we've seen in 40 or 50 years. And Coda, I think, obviously, doing super well and used by 25,000 teams all over the world and it's spreading very quickly, but there's now all these other players as well that are taking their own approaches at reinventing different parts of our activity.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:52:02):
And for an industry that's seen very little change over that period of time, it's amazing how fas ... It's the renaissance of productivity. It's all these new things. I think it is mostly credited to, there's no more file formats. And that totally changes how you think about all these tools.
Rob Collie (00:52:16):
A punctuated equilibrium theory of technology. Right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:52:19):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:52:20):
Long periods of stagnation and then lots of diversity all at once. You know?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:52:23):
Yeah. Something quick cages. Yeah. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:52:26):
So, I almost needed a name for a new emotion when I visited you guys. We need a word for this where you guys were telling me about this grand plan reinventing, essentially, what it means to be a productivity suite and documents and all of that. On the one hand I'm sitting there going like, "Oh, come on. This is crazy what you guys are trying to do. This is never going to work. There's so much inertia in the market. How many things have tried to be the new Excel? Everything that's tried that is no longer here." And I was pretty clear about that with you guys. I wasn't hiding my feelings on that front, but at the same time though, and this is important, I was reading the room.
Rob Collie (00:53:05):
I was reading you and going, "Yeah, I don't want to bet against these people though." I was really at a weird spot. So, 25,000 teams. Such an incredibly ambitious and gutsy mission, but six years later, you're not doing anything different. You're only growing. You've got people all over the place now. I basically met it was essentially the whole team back then.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:53:31):
Yeah. You did.
Rob Collie (00:53:31):
I think I've seen the news wire releases of valuations and things, which are always nuts. How has the product evolved? Is it still on that original mission? Is it everything? Is it everything that Office does?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:53:47):
Yeah. So, it is still on that original mission. And I gave a talk to new hires. Now, we do it every month. We have a big enough set of people coming in every month. I always start with this big disclaimer. I say, "Sometimes you join a company and what they're doing six or seven years in is completely different than when they started." I generally walk people through our very first pitch deck, our very first [inaudible 00:54:06] and I say, "Look, we're doing almost exactly the same thing. You can attribute that to amazing impressions or amazing stubbornness, whichever way you want to think about it. But, yes, we're roughly doing the same thing as back then. Most customers would describe our product, they call it an all-in-one doc and say, "Oh, it blends the best parts of documents, spreadsheets, presentations, and applications into a new surface.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:54:27):
Our deep believers will use that line that Alex and I started with and say, "Oh, Coda allows anyone to make a doc as powerful as an app." One of the things that I think wasn't obvious then that I think has become much more obvious now is initially people will use that frame. If you want to know why my wife is starting a new business, she runs the whole thing in Coda. If you asked her why, she said, "Oh, because I don't want to pick documents, spreadsheet presentation, I guess." It's like one of the most terrifying moments a user hits is like, "I'm about to do this thing. And I've got a new doc dialogue, which one is it? Am I ever going to have to write more than a few paragraphs of texts? Oh, I guess, I got to be over here. Am I ever going to need a formula ever? Oh I guess I got to be over here. Am I ever going to need to present this to anybody? I guess I need to be over here."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:55:09):
And that just sucks. Right? It's a really hard way to think about it. That resonates very quickly with people. But I think when people really fall in love with Coda, they fall in love with all the choices we made on the core building blocks of the product. And I think one of the things that was hard to describe at the time, and I knew I had you come to talk to the team as one of the foremost spreadsheet experts I know inside and out, as a deep user, inventor, so on. And so, obviously, the frame of the discussion started with the spreadsheet. The interesting thing about Coda and our relation to spreadsheets is in some ways we're like a spreadsheet turned inside out, right?
Shishir Mehrotra (00:55:42):
It's like the core of Coda is not a grid. And so, a lot of the things you're used to in spreadsheets don't exist, but there is a deep re-calc engine sitting underneath Coda. And you can go in the Coda and anywhere you want, you can hit equals and type a formula and you get back a result and you can refer to things. We have a different thing we call tables, which back to our nouns you point at the world, is very importantly not a grid. It's columns have names, not letters. And there is a feature in Excel now called tables that is most people don't know about but you know very, very well. It's amazing how they squirreled it ... I don't know if that happened before you left or not.
Rob Collie (00:56:15):
Yeah. So, the original version it was called Lists and that was done in 2003. And then we upgraded it into the full tables feature in 2007. That happened on my team. A guy named Joe [Cheralove 00:56:28] reported to me, was in charge of it. I was just a clipboard holder for that release, in a way, right? I can't claim responsibility for the table feature. Joe and company did that. It's cool.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:56:39):
It's a great example. It's a cool feature and people deep in Excel, they discover this thing. And then, the people that really believe in Excel table to say, "Actually, I would prefer that you never use the grid. Please just do this because this is a better way to think about it." And so, there's a bunch of choices we've made that work along those lines that people just fall deeply in love with. Interestingly, the hardest audience for us is the deep spreadsheet lover, but that's actually ... If you are that person that is building models and the difference between INDEX-MATCH and VLOOKUP, then you're probably actually going to have the hardest time getting into Coda, which is interesting, but we completely opened up the market. And so, now, all of a sudden, the metaphors make tons of sense. And people come into Coda.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:57:19):
The vast majority of Coda docs are just docs. We have this notion we call pages which, interestingly, they're tabs, spreadsheet tabs turned on the side. We just took a metaphor and we pulled it out, made it more approachable. So, the vast majority of Coda docs have no formulas, no data, no anything. They're just better documents. And then, when people discover tables in Coda, they discover it with a fresh eye and they don't even think about spreadsheets and the people that do, think about it with a completely different metaphor and then, gradually, discover that, "Oh, I can do these things." And actually it feels a lot more like an application and I can add ... Some of our most popular features are buttons and controls and we have these things we call packs that allow you to integrate Coda with all these different services and these automations. And you can build anything in Coda.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:57:56):
We have many companies that run entirely on Coda. One really fun example, in the Coda gallery you'll find lots of example docs that people publish. There's one from a company called Squared Away. I think they're 150-person company and they wrote this doc about how they saved a $100,000 in software by rebuilding everything in Coda. And not only saved a bunch of money, but actually built a set of things that actually run the way they want to run. And they run their billing system in it, and how they do their virtual agent service, and they run their time-tracking system in it, their CRM, everything ends up in Coda. So, it's an interesting product that I like to call it a product with a very low floor and very high ceiling that you can come in. It's a blinking cursor, a blank screen.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:58:35):
If you know how to use Google Doc, you know how to use Coda and most people, that's what they do. We're just a fancy document that has pages and a few delightful things that allow your documents to look a little bit better. And then, gradually, you learn a new set of building blocks and work your way up into this ecosystem. One of the reasons I think your initial impressions of, will you be able to replace Excel? And I think we don't try. I never walk in and say like, "Please get rid of spreadsheets." We will often get rid of a spreadsheet. The Pinterest team is a good example. Pinterest runs almost entirely on Coda now and the thing we replaced there, we started with Ben and his team started using Coda to run their meetings. Just a better way to run meeting notes.
Shishir Mehrotra (00:59:10):
And we have this special type of button we call voting. And so, you can easily set up an agenda for a meeting and everybody votes on what they want to talk about or you can do these very simple, little, we call it pulse check where you can say, "How's everybody feeling about this decision?" And you can click a little button and hide everybody else's responses and just see your own. And then you can click it again and you can see everybody else's. And these are all such simple, little building blocks to go create. And then, they were about to transition from ... They do all their planning at Pinterest in these big spreadsheets like many companies do. And they were about to deploy this big package application for doing it. And the night before, they were doing the evaluation in the big package application, many people said, "I bet I can do that in Coda."
Shishir Mehrotra (00:59:48):
And she went and built that same system they were about to buy and spend millions of dollars on, she built it in Coda and said, "Oh, this is actually pretty good." And the goal-tracking system is a very natural ... Table metaphors make much more sense than a grid metaphor. And you probably spend a lot of time trying to teach people, "Don't use the grid, use tables. You'll end up in a much better spot if you do it this way." And then just rebuilt it. And not only did they save a bunch of money, but they got to build it in a way that now works with all the rest of their systems. So, now, if you're a product manager at Pinterest and you say, "I'm writing a [inaudible 01:00:17] and I want to go pull in the goals for the team." It's literally one click and you can pull in the goals of the team that are relevant to your project, and then you can update it. And it flows right back to the main system.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:00:28):
And so, what I find is, we start with the very simple metaphor. Use this to run meetings, write your project brief, write proposal for clients. Those are very common use cases. And then, gradually, people learn these new building blocks. And if I ever get caught in the compared to spreadsheets, probably the wrong spot to be, but you gradually figure out that actually my spreadsheet was not that good for that. And I was wrestling with, how do I produce a view for this thing that actually allows multiple people to see a different thing? Or how do I produce something that integrates with these four other systems? And actually spreadsheets are pretty bad at all that stuff. It reminds me to use a different analogy that a lot of people will describe this as a fourth file format.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:01:04):
There's doc sheets, slides, and you can technically put a table on a document, but it's a pretty limited table compared to a spreadsheet. And the fact that documents support tables doesn't actually compete with spreadsheets because you quickly realize the wrong thing to do. The same thing, people still use spreadsheets, all the clients. I don't think people stop using doc sheets and slides, but we end up taking a set of processes that are a little bit different and they end up moving over to Coda and it goes very quickly. And I do think this Austin Powers analogy of start from scratch, don't use terminology, people don't understand, oh, I understand pages in the document, I understand what a table is, usually, the first concept people have to understand in Coda that's new to them is a view. That you can create a table and you can create a view at the same table.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:01:46):
And we actually see the same thing and they're both editable. For database people, that's a very understandable thing but, for normal people, that's not a common thing. And it's total moment of magic where it's like, "Hey, we're going to build a list of tasks and I'm going to divide it up. And this is the one the developers are going to look at and this is the one that product managers are going to look at and they show four different columns and that's okay." It's total mind change or that's a different way to think about it. And we work our way through people's learning experience that way. And the metaphors we currently see have been there for 40 or 50 years. So, it'll take time for them to change. But I think it's fairly obvious to me that the world is ready for it. And I think we're seeing that change happen as we work through this.
Rob Collie (01:02:27):
My picture of what you're doing is really changing quite a bit. Not that what you're doing has changed, it's my picture. This discussion about processes and so, the company you mentioned that runs their billing and they typically think of as a CRM, all of that, all of that happening in Coda is fascinating. The things you're talking about with Excel, it's not necessarily that Coda is aiming at the spreadsheet workload, but spreadsheets are used, misused for a jillion different things. Even what you were talking about, YouTube, if someone flagged a video, it would be a line on a spreadsheet. Right?
Shishir Mehrotra (01:03:06):
Yeah. Right.
Rob Collie (01:03:07):
Okay. That's an example of where you, "Ah, spreadsheet."
Shishir Mehrotra (01:03:09):
[crosstalk 01:03:09] spreadsheet.
Rob Collie (01:03:11):
It's just the most convenient thing. The way that our company operates, the processes that run our company ... And our company has turned out to be very heavily dependent on excellent processes. The average consulting firm, the old business model is you land a client and you try to never leave. You park as many people there, you drag that one project out as long as you can. That's the business model. And so, utilization isn't a tough challenge when you're working in that industry. But our whole goal is to be really good for the customer. The best possible thing for the customer is to burn through that project in an amazing way, not too fast, as quickly as possible, as high quality as possible and then if we get to the end of it, maybe they hire us for another one. But that creates what we call the Tetris problem for utilization, right? It's just so hard. And so, we run on all these processes and we have all of these line of business systems, "best of breed", AKA, whatever shit you bought at that point in time and then you bought another one later.
Rob Collie (01:04:10):
And the glue between them has really opened my eyes to this second age of middleware, this integration point between all of these things. I've really been hot on this lately. And to hear you echoing this from a different angle, a lot of it is you are integrating with different systems but a lot of it is also happening. A lot of things we might typically think of as line of business software that we would buy and then, of course, infinitely configure forever like Salesforce. The idea that you could do that from scratch in Coda is really fascinating.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:04:43):
Yeah. I think it's also related to one of our most popular features is called packs. So, packs is how you integrate Coda with other systems. And we built a few dozen of these now. We're working right now on opening it up so anybody can build their own and you can connect to any system you want. But it's interesting so you can connect Coda to Salesforce or Jira or so on. And you can do some of that with spreadsheets. I mean, you can connect them together sometimes. And, certainly, for analytics, you can. I mean, you can go do the Power BI type stuff and you can go connect to some of these systems. What happens in spreadsheets is that the metaphor is actually very different, right? None of these things have a grid-based data model. It's actually not really what you want.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:05:18):
You want something that's a slightly different interface. The other thing is the whole model of a spreadsheet is designed around one way access. The idea is you got one sheet that's all your data and then everything else is [inaudible 01:05:31]. Formulas are not editable and so on. The value proposition of putting it into the spreadsheet this is mostly about reporting and analysis and it's not really about taking action. So, in Coda's case, you pull these things in and the data model makes sense and you can actually like, "Oh, that's a table of customers and that makes sense." You expect to be able to edit it and take action on it. We have this feature we call buttons where you can actually take action on these things. And so, we have a bunch of packs.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:05:53):
For example, one of our most popular packs is the Slack pack, Gmail pack, so on, are very popular because in Coda you set up this thing and it says, "All right, I'm going to pull in this stuff for billing data and then I'm going to pull around it like what we did with the project. And then, I'm going to create this button that just emails the client every week with, "Here's the update." You could spend forever trying to pull together four different systems of like, "Here's one view for the client, what's going on with your project?" And you can obviously share the doc with them if you want but in a lot of cases, no, I just want an email with what's the last update. A really popular pack in Coda is Twilio. So, you can actually send text messages from Coda.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:06:28):
So, you can go, "I've got a list of people coming to the event and I just want to be able to set a little drip text campaign that says, one week to go. Did you sign up your registration form? Did you fill out your COVID test? And then, oh, two days ago, here's what the weather's going to be. Now, event's starting. Reply to this if you want." And all that stuff that you'd have to be a developer to do, all of a sudden, literally, looks like a document and you can take it and you can build whatever you like in it. And so, we've seen people build just amazing stuff for this. One of my other favorite examples, there's compost farms outside St. Louis and this family runs it and they do it as a volunteer thing. And they somehow scrounged up enough volunteer money to pay a person to go collect compost from everybody's house to be able to put it and it's called the Soil Farm up St. Louis.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:07:11):
And it's cool. The community really loves it [inaudible 01:07:13]. And they used to run in a big Google sheet and it's like, "Okay, these are the houses that have their compost set outside." And this person would try to wiggle through it on their phone and you can't really see anything. And he's always wrong. And he's turned this into this Coda doc and it texts people and they text back. There's a good writeup on it, actually. If you search for Soil Farm in Coda, you'll find it. They built this whole workflow and, all of a sudden, this thing just works. So, from that perspective, I would think of what Excel does is a weird detour off of this set, right? It's like sometimes you use Excel to run applications but it's actually pretty inappropriate for most of those things. I think you know I'm one of the deepest lovers of Excel in the planet.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:07:50):
This is not meant as a jab at the creators of what I think is the lingua franca of how the entire world operates. This is amazing accomplishment, but these metaphors were literally done 50 years ago. And you can only bolt on so many additions to it before realizing time for a new metaphor. That's where tools like Coda come in. And I think we're not the only one. We see companies running on Airtable and Quip and Notion. And there's other ways that people are approaching this too. And it's very clear, at this point, that all of these are making pretty fast progress. We see more and more people get started with them. And these days it's rare to start a company and not pick one of these tools and say, "I'm going to run based off of one of these."
Shishir Mehrotra (01:08:32):
And I'm a big fan of crossing the chasm as a way of thinking about how products grow. And it's just very clear to me that in that analogy of crossing the chasm that Excel, Office [inaudible 01:08:41] is that late majority. It's like, I'm hanging on for dear life. I'm not letting it go. And you see these early adopters. And this whole industry I think in this next couple of years is jumping that chasm. And we're seeing people that feel a lot more normal, early majority folks pick up these tools and say, "Actually, that's quite better. So, I don't really need that old one." For Coda, I think one of our insights is the easiest starting point is a document. It's amazing how quickly kids learn what a document is and blinking cursor, blank screen, what do you do with it?
Shishir Mehrotra (01:09:11):
And I think if you get people at that moment and say, "Oh, this is a better blinking cursor." Call it the battle for the blinking cursor. This is a better blinking cursor then you won't think otherwise when you're ready for that next tool. I just thought of a really fun story. Before when I was starting Coda, what was called Krypton, I had this formative experience with my daughter who at the time was, she was probably seven or eight years old. And the way my office laid out, her desk is right over here. Actually, both of them have desks right behind mine. And she was watching daddy work and she said, "Hey, daddy, what's that?" And I was in a spreadsheet and I'm trying to explain to her what a spreadsheet is. And, first off, trying to explain to an eight-year-old what a spreadsheet is pretty hard, pretty hard to explain to a 30-year-old what a spreadsheet is. I'm trying to describe and it's like, "All right, forget it. I'm not going to describe, I'm just going to show you an example."
Shishir Mehrotra (01:09:51):
Trying to come up with a use case now. What's a use case for an eight-year-old and their six-year-old sister? And so, I said, "Okay, they've been playing this card game." And I said, "Well, why don't we keep score?" And so, I build this spreadsheet and I write Anika and Ria, that's their names, and I build a column for score and then Anika and Ria were columns. And then there's another column for who won. And that the formula is if this is greater than that then Anika won, otherwise, Ria won. And it's like, "Okay, that's cool." And then I said, "By the way, don't forget to copy and paste that formula all the way down the column." And she says, "Why? What does that do?"
Shishir Mehrotra (01:10:18):
And I was like, "I don't know how to explain." So, we've got this tool where you can't describe it to anybody. You can't come up with a use case for an eight-year-old that makes any sense. And the core mechanic of the tool, is it possible to understand and explain? Why is he copying a formula? I'm going to try to explain R1C1 notation to an eight-year-old? It's not the right way to explain what is happening here. And so, in my mind, these building blocks are good and they've taken us a long ways, but we can probably do better. And that's where we started with Coda. And I think so far that's working pretty well.
Rob Collie (01:10:49):
My goodness. As a side note, some point, just for fun, just for fun, I'd love to, without recording, just sit down with you and Kellan, our president and COO, and just walk you through how we run our business. I think we're probably a little too deep in to be thinking about switching the way that our whole DNA works maybe. Right? But I think it would be a really interesting cross-pollination because our internal software, our internal automation and systems is like life support. We're like this moon base. We've set up business in a corner of the market that is inhospitable to human life, but there we are. We're thriving. The colony's growing and it's because of this internal system that keeps us alive. I think if we'd started from the beginning, we probably could have used something like what you're talking about. Probably could have used Coda for all of this. We wouldn't need our super overwrought and expensive Salesforce implementation. In the end, it's like simpleton language. The sum total of the whole thing is complex, but you can use small words for all of it.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:11:55):
Yeah. I can take a look. Agencies and consulting firms as well are very common clients to Coda. I actually think software is not really built for that market or the software that it is, is pretty poor. Salesforce is not really designed for that market as an example. And one of the way I like to think about Coda is I picture the world as like you have Office and docs, sheets, slides, and so, on one end of the spectrum, and then the other end, you have all these packaged applications, which you call best of breed, right? And in the middle, you had this valley. Everybody goes through this point where your spreadsheet and docs run out and then you have to jump across the valley and like, "Oh crap, I really wanted some of what I had back there and now I'm stuck." And I think of what we're doing with Coda and this whole generation of productivity platforms is we're filling in that valley a bit, or at least extending the bridge across.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:12:40):
And it's not meant to say that many of our clients still use Salesforce and Jira and so on. Small companies often can do without them but as you get larger, there's a lot of reasons why people end up with those things. And then you want to connect to them and make sure that you can get a seamless integration together in some. But this idea of this gulf between these things is very high. And I think what happens with these, you buy these pieces of package software that are best of breed and one size fits all. I can say one size fits all over one size fits none. And you end up with this thing that does 1,000 things that you don't need and it's missing the three things that you do.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:13:13):
And then you're working a way around it. And maybe I can customize it and then I build a script that does some other thing. And you end up with this mess of not really what was ever intended to be done there. And then, you can't really take advantage of any other updates and so on because they don't really apply to you. And so, we find consulting firms are actually a pretty good target for us. So, yeah. I'd love to show you.
Rob Collie (01:13:31):
And vice versa.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:13:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:13:33):
Here's the edgy question, the important question that everyone here wants to know, can I pull data from Coda into Power BI?
Shishir Mehrotra (01:13:39):
The API works great. I actually haven't tested it myself, but I can't imagine why not.
Rob Collie (01:13:45):
We need a Power BI pack.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:13:46):
Yeah, totally doable.
Tom Larock (01:13:48):
Do you mean that the other way though? You mean to pull data from Power BI into Coda?
Shishir Mehrotra (01:13:53):
Both are probably interesting. Power BI into Coda, when we open to the pack ecosystem, we'll be able to do it. One of the hardest parts about pulling from systems like Power BI or Snowflake or so on is the schema changes. And so, when you pull from Jira the schema is mostly the same. They're custom fields, but it's mostly the same. And so, you engineer them all but differently. So, we're about to ship a set of updates that allow pulling from schema list or changing schema systems. But at that point, we'll be able to pull in not only what ... The key part of what happens when you pull into Coda is because we have native support for tables, you end up with relationships that actually match what your database does. So, you don't pull in one table, you pull in all of them and all the relationships are intact.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:14:30):
You can navigate them and the formula language understands them and so on. The other way around of, can I take data that's in Coda and pull it in the other systems? That's all possible too, in some senses. We have a good rest head on Coda it'd be relatively straightforward any tool that can pull out of a well-formed, rest-based data API. You could probably do it today without really any work from us. But there's probably some work we could do to make it better.
Rob Collie (01:14:52):
Here's the use case. And Tom's right to ask about it both directions.
Tom Larock (01:14:56):
Oh, hold on. You said I was right. Hold on. Write it down.
Rob Collie (01:14:58):
Yeah. Write it down. Write it down. Right. Yeah. We need to share to say you're right. That's going to carry more weight. Okay. So, if we had, let's say, instead built our whole company's digital nervous system around Coda rather than best of breed, blah, blah, blah, plus middleware, well, we would still need to be able to do some very, very sophisticated reporting and analysis on it that Power BI it is a hammer for that nail. It is really, really, really good, right? So, we'd still want to use Power BI for that, but then we would reach some conclusions. We would want to take some actions.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:15:31):
Yeah. You pipe it back in.
Rob Collie (01:15:36):
And so, there's two pieces of techno-integration that you could consider at Coda, make it a lot more relevant immediately to me, which is make it really straightforward for me to pull the data in. But then, also, the equivalent of a custom visual implemented in Power BI that allows me to take that action back in to Coda. Right? If my processes were running in Coda, I would do some analysis, reach a conclusion. I need to take some action. And then, I would want to trigger another Coda process. Well, Microsoft has made the Power BI surface pluggable. You can write a custom visual which, typically, you would use to render your own chart, but that same framework can be used for basically anything.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:16:14):
Yeah. [crosstalk 01:16:15].
Rob Collie (01:16:15):
Now, we're really having fun.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:16:16):
We're working on a bunch of the stuff the Microsoft team has asked us to prioritize, no big surprise, integrations in their teams. And so, we're working on some of those first. That's such a [inaudible 01:16:26] that's there. Every time I talk to them that's what they want. It's like, how come you don't have better teams? And we were blocked by a couple technical gaps to get that done, but that'll come soon. And we have actually a really good integration with Slack. And so, I think we'll end up mimicking a lot of that in the team's world. But I think some of what you're talking about about building Power BI visualization and so on is totally a reasonable extension project. And maybe we could hire you guys to do it.
Rob Collie (01:16:48):
I mean, [Satya 01:16:51] asked you to do something. Rob asked you to do something. I mean ...
Shishir Mehrotra (01:16:55):
All right, Tom, you can break the tie.
Rob Collie (01:16:56):
Fine. Fine. 51-49, Satya. Fine. I can understand that prioritization.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:17:07):
Satya has been a fun supporter of this ecosystem, actually. We all know he's a good guy. I think he has a pretty good view on, I think, courage innovation in this space.
Rob Collie (01:17:16):
Well, I was going to ask you if ... Because I haven't heard you making Microsoft's radar. They were Google Docs obsessed on the Office team for a very, very, very long time. I wonder if they're starting to turn around and go, "Hmm, we'll have to save that for another day, won't we?"
Shishir Mehrotra (01:17:32):
Yeah. I mean, I think that the closest thing they're working on is this thing called Fluid Framework, which is probably the closest answer to Coda. But it's pretty early. And then, Satya was pretty upfront about that, had the team present it to me pretty early on. So, I've been well aware.
Tom Larock (01:17:43):
Shishir, I could listen to you talk all day. I haven't really said anything because I just wanted to hear more and more from you. Rob had sent me the link to the rituals for hypergrowth and I'm fascinated by all that. And I'd love to talk for another two hours just about that. I want to echo what you said though about the valley, the productivity tools and you talk to a person who feels that all the productivity tools on the market, essentially, make me less productive. If I have to spend more time using your tool than doing my actual job, then that makes it counterproductive. And I feel almost everything out there does it. Like you said, it has 100 things but not the three things you need. And it's a standard that your company will use now. I'm not going to name names.
Rob Collie (01:18:30):
Yeah. That's software. That's software for you, right? That's why we hate-
Tom Larock (01:18:33):
I'm not going to name names of the companies we use that are just shit but they are. And I just wanted to say, I may be oversimplifying it but I feel what you have because I've been looking at the gallery ... I might oversimplify it but I feel what you have created is the beginning of what I would call is a productivity notebook. That's what you have here is you have this ability to make people actually truly more efficient because they're trying to communicate ideas through disparate file systems, bring it all together and then they could pass it off to somebody else like a Jupyter Notebook where they can run things, look at things independently and you make it part of a process. And I'm really excited by all of that. So-
Shishir Mehrotra (01:19:13):
That's a common analogy. I like that one.
Tom Larock (01:19:15):
Okay. Can I get you to say that you're right?
Shishir Mehrotra (01:19:18):
Tom, you're absolutely right. That's a great analogy.
Rob Collie (01:19:21):
Write it down. Another ritual on the podcast. Hey, Shishir, I've really enjoyed this. Honestly, I feel like I get smarter when I talk to you or I want to get smarter anyway.
Tom Larock (01:19:34):
I feel [crosstalk 01:19:34].
Rob Collie (01:19:34):
It's one or the other. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending this time with us.
Tom Larock (01:19:37):
Yes, thank you.
Shishir Mehrotra (01:19:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:19:37):
This was fascinating.
Announcer (01:19:38):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
Our guest this week, Vishal Lodha, is Strategic Account Director at Microsoft. A title that comes with huge amounts of pressure and responsibility. Vishal is the primary point of contact between Microsoft and some of their most important customers and has a vast knowledge of the entire Microsoft stack. His story is much like so many other guests on our show-taking quite the circuitous and interesting path to where he is today!
References in this episode:
Planes, Trains, and Automobiles Taxi Scene
Royal Tennenbaums Tennis Guy
EPISODE TIMELINE:
- 3:00 - Some tricky acronyms, Vishal's role includes SO many responsibilities, and Vishal's Origin Story-he started in a data junkyard!
- 18:00 - Vishal's technical and higher education makes him a hot commodity, he exemplifies the human element of data and tech
- 40:40 - Vishal has been in the field for a long time and has seen some things, the history (and future) of the Cloud,
- 57:50 - The trends Vishal and Microsoft are talking about, the marriage of IT and Business, and Rob makes quite the observation
- 1:20:20 - A discussion about AI
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends. Today's guest is Vishal Lodha, a very interesting fellow. Like many of our guests on this show, he's taken a very winding career path to get to where he is. But today he's a strategic account director at Microsoft. Yes, the acronym for his title is SAD, but that doesn't mean he's actually sad. He gets to be the primary point of contact at the C level between Microsoft and some of their absolute most important customers. And in that role, he is ultimately responsible for the entire Microsoft Stack, end-to-end. Every last piece of software that Microsoft builds and sells, Vishal represents with these sorts of customers. That's a crazy job, a ton of pressure, a ton of responsibility, but also exposure to some of the most interesting things going on in the industry today.
Rob Collie (00:00:58):
We talked about a lot of things, AI, the cloud, the human tech interface, which is always a very popular theme on this show. And something you might not know about this show is that we record it with webcams on so that we can see each other. We only publish the audio, but near the end of this recording, I notice something in the background behind Vishal. It is the only thing like it that I have ever seen in my entire life. And we'd absolutely delved into what was going on there. Yes, I'm deliberately teasing, but that's enough. Let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:33):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:01:37):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:58):
Welcome to the show, Vishal Lodha. How are you today?
Vishal Lodha (00:02:02):
I'm doing very well, Rob, thanks for asking. Hope everyone is doing well on your end as well.
Rob Collie (00:02:07):
Yeah, we are. I think we are. Krissy, how are you doing?
Krissy Dyess (00:02:10):
I'm doing fantastic.
Rob Collie (00:02:11):
Krissy co-hosts any of our Microsoft... Especially people from the Microsoft field. Krissy being our alliance director with respect to Microsoft. We just named that position, renamed it anyway, backstage.
Krissy Dyess (00:02:25):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:02:26):
It's hot off the press, but Krissy runs our Microsoft relationship. And so when we have someone from the Microsoft field on the show, we're going to tag Krissy in as our co-host. And it just seems appropriate, doesn't it?
Krissy Dyess (00:02:38):
It does, and I'm happy to be back in the co-host role.
Rob Collie (00:02:41):
Oh yeah. And we're happy to have you. So Vishal, what's your official job title at Microsoft these days?
Vishal Lodha (00:02:47):
Yeah. Great question, Rob. We obviously wear multiple hats here, but I'm a strategic account director for Microsoft as part of our US healthcare and life sciences business. I sit in a group with five key strategic accounts that are really important to Microsoft and broader mankind, improving quality of care for our patients. And it's a great team to be part of and very honored to have this role where we have an opportunity to improve the overall healthcare ecosystem for people who need the most.
Rob Collie (00:03:20):
Has it ever occurred to you that the people who designed that acronym might not have sounded it out? Does this job make you sad, strategic account director? It seems like if you're going to be improving the health of humanity, we'd want a happier acronym. Don't you think?
Vishal Lodha (00:03:33):
Really don't go by acronyms. At the end of the day, whatever acronyms want you to do, do it. So who cares?
Rob Collie (00:03:38):
Yeah, I mean we refer to people as TSPs or ATS, right? But you're never going to call yourself an SAD.
Vishal Lodha (00:03:45):
Well, technically the acronym is AE, account executive.
Rob Collie (00:03:49):
Oh, that's better. Yeah, I like that.
Vishal Lodha (00:03:51):
There is nothing at Microsoft that happens without an acronym. I mean, if I had a master list acronym, when I started five years back, it would've been awesome, but I didn't. And I had to almost create my own OneNote, but if I were to even start collecting those acronyms by now, I would've published it into books with chapters. But again, that's a different conversation.
Rob Collie (00:04:14):
Yeah. Even our acronyms have acronyms. I like account executive. You can do a lot with AE. Technical account executive. You'd say pronounce it TAE, that would be pretty cool. Anyway, so we're going to roll with that, account executive. So what does that mean, practically speaking? Generically speaking, what is that role responsible for?
Vishal Lodha (00:04:34):
Yeah. So I have end-to-end business responsibilities for the customers. I'm assigned the making sure they are on the path of digital transformation. If you look at Microsoft mission, obviously we are here to empower each and every person in organization on this planet to achieve more. And how do you achieve that is by means of digital transformation, because we are obviously a tech company. Now that just doesn't happen by an AE or another role which is ATS since you love acronyms. I used to be in that role, by the way, before I took this role for four and a half years and that's account technology strategist.
Vishal Lodha (00:05:10):
And so to make it simple, that person is client CTO and I am considered client CEO. Well, of course we don't call that. It's just to make sure we separate our possibilities. I have overall accountability of what's happening on a large strategic account, which are usually Fortune companies for sure. And so, it's a lot of orchestration, I call it. These transformations just don't happen by combination of few roles, right? There is a lot of different skill set needed, there's a lot of technology, a lot of engineering initiatives, a lot of incubation, co-innovation, go-to market. Again, since you started with acronym, we can pile on more acronyms by bringing those up. But like GTM is such a common one these days. Like, "Okay, how can Microsoft help us go to market faster? How can we realize value? How can we differentiate in the marketplace? How can we create non-traditional sources of revenue," right?
Vishal Lodha (00:06:05):
I mean, you're looking at some of the healthcare companies, they're calling themselves now MedTech companies, they want to create some non-traditional revenue by just not by providing healthcare services, but maybe some applications and some services around data and analytics that could be important for patients or consumers, depending on what the field is.
Vishal Lodha (00:06:25):
So really long answer to your question, Rob, but I have a team of about 60 folks give or take, you're familiar with that. We call it a V team. None of them actually report to me, but we are responsible for driving forward digital transformation pillars of Microsoft. We call it modern workplace, intelligent cloud with intelligent cloud apps and infrastructure, data and AI, so that basically breaks into two. And then business applications. That includes a lot of goodness that's happening in our BizApps platform around not just Dynamics 365, but Power Platform, Power Apps, Power BI, remote assist capabilities. And I think that's just a lot to cover.
Vishal Lodha (00:07:07):
I'm also responsible for making sure our clients have the professional services they need through Microsoft consulting services, working with my Microsoft consulting services, partner, account delivery executive, those things. And then on top of it, you need an enterprise class support for customers to run their operations well. And so what used to be premier is now more focused on unified support. And so I have also those responsibility to make sure our customers have the right level of support at the right time. And I'm usually the person which will get active escalations if things don't go right. So call me as the lead orchestrator of the activities on a strategic account, if nothing else suits better.
Rob Collie (00:07:49):
So you said you were an ATS for like four and a half years?
Vishal Lodha (00:07:52):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:53):
Was that your role when we first met? How recently did you make that switch?
Vishal Lodha (00:07:57):
So I changed to an AE year role in September of 2020. So you're absolutely right. I was an ATS. I've been a technical professional for majority of my career. I was not born in the sales world. In fact, I used to be on the other side of the aisle buying services and partnering more with key strategic partners and some call them suppliers. I'm not a big for fan of that word. I call them partners. And so I've done a lot of deals as a former CIO and in other roles as well, delivering services for customers. So, I just made that switch September of 2020. So it's going to be a year. But I was mostly in the ATS role for four and a half years when I came to Microsoft. My role was mostly to my make sure customers get value out of products, platform and services they procure. So my goal was to drive consumption and ROI for a customer for the most part.
Rob Collie (00:08:49):
Yeah. Because you have a very technical background. Let's get into that. You said you weren't born in the sales or account management world. Where were you born?
Vishal Lodha (00:09:00):
The reality is I was born in a town called Jodhpur in India, but I don't think that was the question.
Rob Collie (00:09:05):
Yeah. We're looking for the comic book origin story here.
Vishal Lodha (00:09:08):
Yeah. I don't know if data center is the right place, but you can call it. I was born in a junkyard data center full of metal, I guess. Those days-
Rob Collie (00:09:17):
This sounds good. This is promising. This has good comic book. Potential.
Vishal Lodha (00:09:22):
Yeah. Racking and stacking a lot of hardware. I shouldn't say that, but the journey started actually when I came to grad school here. Most of my friends or colleagues or my classmates would end up taking a very traditional role in a grad program, which would be like a TA or RA. And somehow I ended up on a third acronym called GA, graduate assistant, where I was a part-time student system administrator for a department on campus called educational technology services that would actually provide technical services to college of education at Western Michigan University where I went for my grad school in Kalamazoo, Michigan. So I got connected to that geeky community for lack of better term, who have been in this space for a long time. And I did some of the help desk, desktop support, some server management.
Vishal Lodha (00:10:18):
We used to run Novell that time, if anybody remembers Novell Groupwise for email collaborations. Fun days, yeah. Again, a lot of fun that time.
Rob Collie (00:10:27):
So you have exposure to the flow chart. Is it plugged? Reboot. You've been through that a time or two?
Vishal Lodha (00:10:36):
Not only that. Make sure the floppy disc is ejected before you reboot. Those things. Otherwise, yeah. The boot disc will be different and you will never get to where you want to be. So yeah, I've done those, Rob.
Krissy Dyess (00:10:49):
Were you also in the secret room with the lock that only a couple people with super secret access could get into? Were you in one of those?
Vishal Lodha (00:10:57):
Not in my initial part of my career, but yes, after a few years I've done those too. And yes, I've gone through multiple of those locks, especially during a transition when we were transitioning a service contract from a big player to a more a midsize company. So yeah, Krissy, definitely I've gone through those locks.
Krissy Dyess (00:11:15):
Those were always the people though that I wanted to be best friends with because you could go into the secret room that nobody could get into and you could hide away and see how things work behind the scenes.
Vishal Lodha (00:11:24):
Yeah. The lot of racking and stacking work initially in the early part of my career and it was a lot of fun. But it's also interesting being in a technical support, you make actually friends a lot quicker because everybody needs help. Like I would go for a lunch break and before even I would get my meal and check out, it's like, "Hey, I'm having problem with this." I'm like, "Yeah, I do this four hours and then I take lunch break, and then I do four more." So like you can't get out of that infinite loop. Even though people meet outside of work, even on the sidelines of a game, "Hey, I got this computer and I installed a software and a lot of those..." So people just thought of me as a TV repair man of the old times, like guy with a toolbox.
Vishal Lodha (00:12:10):
Good news is I don't need to ask this guy to come my house. I can call him and he can probably tell me what to do to fix my computer. And I've had those episodes where people have lost their data and no backups. And so we don't want to go there. We'll get somewhere very quickly.
Rob Collie (00:12:26):
Yeah. We had a mutual acquaintance contact both of us recently about a ransomware situation where some company got... Someone was trying to extort them for half a million dollars to unencrypt all or to not disclose or... I don't know. It's a natural thing to ask you, but what's the answer? "I don't know, don't pay."
Vishal Lodha (00:12:46):
I mean, I'll tell you my answer. And again, this is my personal opinion. Doesn't reflect anything about who I work for, but my answer is, apply best practices and you should always have backups of data you have. If you don't, that's fine. You can pay, but I'll tell you two things. There's no guarantee that after paying you will get that back. And even if you get it, there's no guarantee that you'll get all of it back, right? So again, it's an individual risk appetite. There's no right or wrong here, FBI and other agencies will tell you a lot is paid in terms of ransomware. Do we have data and statistics on the recovery rate? I don't know. I don't think so, but we don't need to go there.
Rob Collie (00:13:26):
It reminds me of the beginning of Planes, Trains and Automobiles where Steve Martin, I think it's Kevin Bacon, they both get to a taxi at the same time and Steve Martin tells him, "I'll pay you $75 if let me have this cab." And Kevin bacon goes, "Oh yeah, anyone that will pay $75 for a cab would clearly pay $200 for a cab." So once you pay the ransomware person, their incentive is to say, "Oh, well it turns out it's a little bit more." I just don't know why they would... I mean, they don't have a reputation to uphold. It's like-
Vishal Lodha (00:14:01):
Yeah, it's not like you pay somebody ransomware and then you can go and write a five star review for them that, "Hey I got hacked and this company or this group who hacked is really professional."
Rob Collie (00:14:12):
Yeah. 10 out 10.
Vishal Lodha (00:14:13):
"And they have a great customer experience or customer delight, whether it is in the, what is it called? Dark web actually is the word I was looking for. So there might be some true professionals and people of high integrity in the dark web. But how do you define that? I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:14:28):
It's not really part of the business model. Wouldn't make the core tenants of that organization, would it? Our core values are, well, get money.
Vishal Lodha (00:14:37):
Exactly. And get money fast and run fast.
Rob Collie (00:14:41):
All right. So you got introduced to the world of it and systems in that GA role.
Krissy Dyess (00:14:48):
It's the acronyms.
Rob Collie (00:14:49):
I know it's the path of acronyms. It's like the yellow brick road.
Krissy Dyess (00:14:52):
We're going to have them all at the end of this session.
Rob Collie (00:14:54):
So let's start running tally of every time we say an acronym, we're going to need to ring a bell. So where from there?
Vishal Lodha (00:15:01):
Supporting operations in a higher education board, supporting faculty students, staff mission is great. It's awesome that you're able to get an advanced degree at the same time you're helping advance the higher education mission. So I think I had a great time and it's just so stereotype thinking where, "Okay, this guy has a technical background and he's now involved in a higher education industry, right?" Whether you want to do or not, you actually naturally become a good fit because now you've done that. I was trying to actually say, "Okay, once I graduate, I'll go and work in high tech sector." This is around '99 when I started. 2001, I did graduate with my masters in computer science. And that was also an interesting time. dot-com challenges. People who had offers [inaudible 00:15:53]. And I'm like, "Man, I really don't mind this part-time job. It lets me do what I want to do and continue to learn."
Vishal Lodha (00:16:01):
We are always on the cutting edge of technologies because higher ed actually does get to try things a lot faster. They have some of the corporate partnerships where they would be evaluators. They're not like traditional regulated industry. The regulated industry tried to be a little bit more cautious about it. They won't be wanting to like on the bleeding edge of technology. They like some maturity and things like that. Higher ed is like, "Well, we're all next process of experiment and learning." So anyways, didn't pan out what the plans were because of just the environment, and at that time an industry was in an interesting way. I call it ups and downs. So I ended up continuing in that role and basically pursued my MBA as well while I was there.
Vishal Lodha (00:16:42):
That just gave me some extra time to stabilize myself. And while I was about to graduate, I did get finally the, call it full-time or real world, real job offer from Purdue University in West Lafayette. And so here I am now a higher education guy landing from one institution of higher education to another one, only three hours south of where I was. But I guess little bit of less snow. I didn't have to deal with the lake effect, Michigan. Temperatures weren't that different, but I think if you look at the driveway accumulation, that would tell you the story for sure.
Rob Collie (00:17:15):
So Purdue, is that where you were immediately before Microsoft?
Vishal Lodha (00:17:19):
No, not really. There were a couple of hops in between. So I was transitioning from the tech world to higher education to higher education. I was at Purdue in college of engineering for a few years, college of agriculture, mostly working on-
Rob Collie (00:17:33):
Agriculture? Really? I did not know that.
Vishal Lodha (00:17:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:17:37):
So let's not skip past Purdue. Purdue is a fantastic engineering school. I knew a lot of people from Purdue out in Seattle. As far as I could tell, half the people at Boeing were from Purdue. So what all did you end up doing at Purdue? What was the story there?
Vishal Lodha (00:17:52):
Yeah, I was part of an organization called Engineering Computer Network, which is basically the IT arm of college of engineering. My focus was to support nuclear engineering department there, all of it, services, infrastructure, and endpoint computing to depart mental technology initiative solutions, you name it. That was great. And then transitioned to college or agriculture in a very similar role but as an IT manager. Actually, that was my first experience as a supervisor. I had one person reporting to me initially, and then we added another headcount. I know you don't like to go too far too fast from engineering to agriculture, but I was just keen on making sure I let you know where my next stop was.
Rob Collie (00:18:35):
I mean, from nuclear engineering to agriculture, it's a pretty natural. That's just the curve. That's how it works. And then were you worth the agricultural wing, supporting them up until your next job? Was that your final role at Purdue? What's the end game at Purdue?
Vishal Lodha (00:18:54):
No. Great question, but there's a couple of more stops here, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:18:58):
Okay. Let's do it.
Vishal Lodha (00:19:00):
Yeah. So did that for a while, and then I got, I would say, a little bit bored and little bit driven out of circumstances. I'm like, I need to get out of higher education industry because I want to see other perspectives. There's a lot more to this world than higher ed and I was right and I was wrong because guess what? There's a twist in this story. I come back to Purdue a little bit. So this is like a movie.
Rob Collie (00:19:20):
A little boomerang thing going on.
Vishal Lodha (00:19:22):
Exactly. And then I exit Purdue again. So it's like, "What does this guy want in life?" "We'll figure that out later." So I said, "Okay, I want to explore more." So I actually started looking into some other options and got involved with the consulting organization. Actually. I think that's where I found my true calling or my passion. I mean, I was always in a service industry indirectly. I was servicing clients or users from a technical support and services management. But now you're looking at a broader perspective like customers, like other organizations, right? So I came to work for a consulting company here in Indianapolis that led a lot of work on the business intelligence side and some infrastructure as well, working mostly with government clients, Department of Defense specifically and did that for a few years.
Vishal Lodha (00:20:10):
Actually I stood up a BI practice. At that time, Cognos was a hot commodity. I recruited students, graduates from schools through campus recruiting, started a BI practice and got the right talent, made them go through boot camp, made them part of a consulting practice and really got those resources deployed to the who needed those services. I mean, data and analytics was picking up. This is 2007 timeframe.
Rob Collie (00:20:39):
Okay. The 2007 release of Excel is the release in which Office really took BI seriously for the first time. And that's also the release where I was introduced to BI. In some weird twist of fate was introduced to it, in some sense, put in charge of it for Excel. And it was the really interesting days. I think I even took like a Cognos class at some local community college out in Seattle just to size up the competition.
Vishal Lodha (00:21:08):
Yeah. I mean, the focus at that time was who were the key leaders, if you look at that. By the way, I did the same too. I went to the Cognos academy in Schaumburg that used to be their facility training and got trained and certified. But at that time it was like business objects, Cognos, and there were some things were popping up. I think micro strategy was picking up at that point in time. And so if you knew any of these tools and had skill sets of data and analytics, you were in demand. I mean you were getting there very quickly. So people have made career transitions and have gotten on that wave of BI analytics through those tool sets.
Rob Collie (00:21:47):
So just like basically everyone that we've ever had on this show is a meandering path to a career. And like you said, you found your passion. We subtitled this show Data With The Human Element, something that you called out and I was also about to if you hadn't. So much of this, even the story so far, you've been in a service oriented capacity, it's interacting with other people, it's helping them solve their problems. So it's not really about the tech, is it? It's about using the tech to help others and helping others get the most out of their tech. So running a BI practice and something happens, right? Do you get bored of that? What happened?
Vishal Lodha (00:22:26):
Not really. I was enjoying it. I was delivering services for Fortune customers and government for many years. And one of my colleagues actually went to work for a different company. That company was growing up really fast here in town, rapidly. And something came up like, "Hey, you would be a great fit for this." I'm like, "Well, I'm happy what I'm doing." Like, "Well, let's talk." I'm like, "Okay, let's talk." So I go and talk. He's like, "Yeah, I think you should interview you." I said, "I think interviews are distraction. If you're enjoying what you're doing, why do you want to create this thing?" And he's like, "No, you should do it. Benchmark yourself in the market." "All right, let's do that." And we do and met with the hiring manager who was the VP. And I also met with the CEO, really humble guy.
Vishal Lodha (00:23:07):
And next few days just go and then suddenly I have an offer and I have an offer to lead all of delivery services for the organization. Originally got hired as director of service delivery and mostly getting out of the infrastructure world now, not completely, but mostly. And suddenly if I were to take this role I would have responsibility for commercial customer, state and local government and not much federal or DOD. And that thing goes by, and my organization grows and I got moved one level up, which was great. And then as part of that move, I also got oversight responsibilities of running an offshore delivery center in India, which existed when I had taken the prior role within the same company. But now I'm also overseeing folks in a different time zone with the... Some of the local responsibilities in that country, including business operations, banking, relationships, establishing relationships with facilities management and real estate for operations and things like that.
Vishal Lodha (00:24:08):
So it was a great experience to get that thing. And especially in India where I grew up and so it's like, I go there and I used to go every quarter just for making sure the operations are smooth. Team building was so important because those folks were working US shifts. And so, it was really where I learned a lot of things, at least in my last three roles before coming to Microsoft, really made me who I am today. And of course, some great experience at Purdue, especially empathy, right? Like, "Okay, how do you very empathetically talk to your customers? You listen to them, you try to understand their business problems." So just because I was mostly people-facing, customer-facing, I had a different temperament than some of my friends who were hardcore engineering, no offense meant, but definitely made me a lot better person, a lot humble is what I felt.
Vishal Lodha (00:24:55):
I used to be that guy with a very interesting temperament growing up. But as things progressed, made me a better individual. So again, Rob, I haven't come to your final or conclusion, but so those are the roles I did and then had a responsibility of an organization of 400 FTEs including manager of managers, which was great, really enjoyed it, but was extremely time consuming in the sense that I was working two shifts a lot, like 15-hour days were uncommon. Especially during my India at trips, I was actually covering India hours as well as US hours, which is great. But then you catch up on sleep and you can... In fact, I remember very well. I flew out from Mumbai on one of the nonstop flights to New York. I only woke up 45 minutes when we were away from New York and the flight crew thought I was probably not even alive.
Vishal Lodha (00:25:44):
And they said, "Sir, are you okay?" "I'm like, "Yeah, I'm fine. I haven't slept in like last four days." And here I go, "I'm catching up." So it was all good, great experience. Lot of trust conversations, lot of endurance-building during that time. And it was going really well. And then I was like, "I'm spending way too many hours on work. I need a work life-balance. And I think higher education was perfect. And I didn't have to worry of about email or a phone call after five o'clock. And something opens up Purdue University. I talk to my family and I suddenly end up becoming assistant head of computer science department at Purdue.
Rob Collie (00:26:19):
Very cool. Very, very cool. That 400 person company before we move on from that was that also a consulting services company?
Vishal Lodha (00:26:25):
Yeah. And that will be my next stop again. And this is going to be like, "What is going on?"
Rob Collie (00:26:30):
Well, no, I think it's time for you to go back to Purdue.
Vishal Lodha (00:26:32):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:26:32):
I think Purdue is actually the center of this orbit. We'll find out though. That's what this experiment's about. Is it consulting or is it Purdue? We're not sure what the center of your universe is. Assistant director, is that assistant in charge of the entire computer science program?
Vishal Lodha (00:26:49):
It's assistant head. So there's a department head and then there's an assistant head. It's mostly, I would call it academic administration and chief of staff.
Rob Collie (00:26:58):
That's a big change.
Vishal Lodha (00:26:59):
Huge.
Rob Collie (00:26:59):
That's not the IT support. It's not consulting services. I mean, that's about as big of a change... From the outside I think a lot of people would go, "Yeah, he's just still in tech." They hear computer science, like, "No, that's got to be incredibly different job, some serious whiplash doing something like that."
Krissy Dyess (00:27:17):
I often think too, it's hard to transition when you're in tech and you're coding and you're figuring out technical problems that transition between talking and figuring out computer problems to figure out human problems across large organizations with a lot of moving parts. That's a really unique skill set.
Vishal Lodha (00:27:37):
Yeah. I mean, there was correlation, I would say that, of course this role involved overseeing IT support staff for computer science, but that was not the only one. Even communication staff or corporate relations as well. So per Purdue, that's a very interesting corporate relationship program and briefs time I was there got to interact with big tech companies, including some large corporate partners who had a great partnership with Purdue in general. And even we further strengthen those relationships. But basically a large department of about 1000 undergrad students, 300 grad students and be one of the people who help manage operations. And it was a really a cool role. I had not imagined that I would be making a switch fairly quickly because the person who I replaced was in that role for almost three plus decades. And he actually retired from that role.
Vishal Lodha (00:28:34):
And that was my whole thing, was like I was going to go there and really enjoy being with the student community, work with corporate partners, industry experts and enable students, or I call it future innovators. There was also a lot of startup activity had started at that time. Some students were bringing some interesting ideas and they were looking to form startups. It was really going well. And my wife was already working there. I mean, she had been there now 15 years so that had not changed any of the roles. She had done couple by just within her line of field at Purdue. So I was the one who was actually going around musical chairs. So it was like, "Okay, back to full circle, perfect stability, great work-life balance."
Rob Collie (00:29:18):
Did that role have anything... I just would think of it as being all up administration for the computer science department. So chain changes to the course offerings. Were you involved in those discussions?
Vishal Lodha (00:29:31):
Yeah. Launching new or at least helping plan new graduate programs. I think we were looking at Cyber Security 1 at that time when I was there. I think data science was in early stages. We were trying to collaborate with folks in the Krannert School of Management at Purdue. And so how do you start this interdisciplinary thing? I was also trying to tell like, "Hey, technical skills are good, but our students who graduate also need to have some good project management skills. And so how do we infuse those?' I mean, they're excellent coders and they really at product developers. But I think the more I've seen of the real world going back and forth, I feel like project management skills are so important. And you know, Rob and Kris, Microsoft has a very strong program management concept here, right? In fact, here at Microsoft, we don't call project managers, PMs, we, and PJMs because PM was taken by program managers, and here comes another acronym.
Rob Collie (00:30:24):
Oh yeah. Ring the bell.
Krissy Dyess (00:30:24):
Ring the bell. That's what I was going to say, "Ring the bell."
Rob Collie (00:30:28):
The acronym bell.
Krissy Dyess (00:30:31):
I think that's been my journey is just getting through all the acronyms, but I'm learning quite a bit.
Rob Collie (00:30:36):
The Microsoft field I think has a stronger acronym game than even the engineering teams. We didn't have that at many. We had COM and DDE, just not that many acronyms going around, really. In fact, I think at one point we had like a policy that we weren't allowed to name anything with an acronym or a code name. We had to give things even temporarily, just really descriptive names. So you end up with names that were like a paragraph long and some of the made it out into the public as actual product or actual feature names, which is really, really, really dull. So in the zero sum game, because I'm assuming you can't offer as a computer science department or really any academic department an ever-growing list of programs, an ever-growing list of courses. It's interesting to talk about the new things that were coming along. But do you remember any of the courses or programs that got canceled or mothballed to make room for the new stuff? What was falling off the back of that Stack?
Vishal Lodha (00:31:35):
Yeah, At least my tenure there, which was roughly about less than a year, actually close to a year or something like that, really not much. I will say that I saw hundreds of students. So when they come to campus, look at any undergrad, "What do you want to do?" "I want to do this, but I don't know." Or how many times you hear of people changing majors, right? And people who thought they were really wanting to do computer science end up in computer technology or computer information system. That means they'll actually go out of computer science program and go to computer technology or in management. But from a coursework, I didn't see a lot of turnover at that point. I think my predecessor who was obviously there for three decades would've seen those transition a lot more. As technology evolved, the coursework had to be brought up to speed because at the day you are an input to a workforce system, right?
Vishal Lodha (00:32:28):
And so you want to produce best graduates who are at par with the current technical trends and things like that. So I think the underlying foundation remained the same when it comes to coursework, object-oriented programming and data structures and numerical analysis. Having strong math and underlying logic and programming skills was the key. But really during at least my tenure, wasn't a lot of change. Now, one thing we did that was pretty cool was giving real time exams to students versus, "Okay, here's the paper, here's the pen, write the code or pseudo code and submit in and we'll get real." Instead, give them an environment to take an exam realtime on a disconnected computer where you can actually write the code and correct the syntax and all that thing. So I think that was when things started to change in terms of using technology for an upgrade of instructional technology, right? What do you do to make instructional mechanism better and more real time?
Vishal Lodha (00:33:29):
And they would obviously write their final exam code and they'll submit to a system and the systems were getting smart at even detecting plagiarism where people would actually use each other's code and make some cosmetic changes. But in the algorithms behind the scenes were smart enough to figure out. And so yeah, it was an interesting period of time and technology was evolving to help build the future workforce in the field of technology.
Rob Collie (00:33:55):
Yeah. That was my first reaction when you mentioned like writing the code on a disconnected computer, I'm like, "Oh, this is all about the prevention of cheating." Is that right?
Vishal Lodha (00:34:05):
Yeah. We had quite a bit of cases. There was no easy way to, obviously. But again, I think as time evolves and I think people realize when they do these things in a disconnected environment, well this is not for them or this program is not right. And they find their passion and from [inaudible 00:34:22]. At the end of the day, I see almost all of them to be super successful. It's just where the land. I mean, I had students who I've heard, like they would just crack the problem very quickly and be done and some would take longer, and some would just not able to do it. And yeah, it's just very relative at the end of the day. But I mean, those student, some didn't have programming skills, and they were really good at business. And going back to my... We used to see several hundred people transition from CS program into other majors and they would do just fine.
Rob Collie (00:34:53):
Yeah. I remember in the mid '90s when I was in college submitting those computer programming projects via the online submission process, always had like a deadline of midnight and it was just so stinking clumsy. You'd have to like try to submit three or four times before it would take. The command lines were really vague. It was just awful. Nothing like uploading... Uploading a video to YouTube today seems like the easiest thing in the world. Like this would be like by comparison, one billionth of as much data, because it's just a text file. We wouldn't be able to submit it. I remember like the clock tower would be bonging out midnight, bong, bong. And we're like, "Come on, press Enter, press Enter. Work this time, work this time." I would've preferred, I think the offline environment you're talking about. The real time, that sucked. I didn't enjoy that at all. Very stressful.
Krissy Dyess (00:35:47):
And don't mix up the punch cards.
Rob Collie (00:35:49):
That's right, yeah. There were no punch cards.
Vishal Lodha (00:35:52):
Yeah. But if you look at the hiring trends, even when I graduated and had gone to Silicon Valley for some interviews and they said, "Here's the problem, here's the marker. Can you write me the code here?" And I was like, "Okay, let's try." And again, if you don't do that in college, it's a reality you have to face in your interviews. I mean, some people actually get filtered through those mechanisms as part of the hiring process. And it's a good rehearsal for real world.
Rob Collie (00:36:22):
When I interviewed at Microsoft out of undergrad, the fact that I did not enjoy programming, even though I had a computer science degree, I really didn't enjoy programming. So I would never really do it unless I was forced to. That became pretty clear in my very, very first interview at Microsoft. I was interviewing on the Windows test team. To be a test engineer on Windows at that time, and certainly today as well, you basically had to be an A plus developer. You weren't just someone who was going there trying to break things manually. You had to write a lot of test code. In fact, that's all you really did. And I remember the first question I got asked was something like, "Implement a hash table to do this with length lists hanging off of the hash table for collisions." And I mean, I understood the theory of all of that. I understood what it was all about and everything. And like, I just could not do it. And I'm just like sweating to death and it was, it was awful.
Rob Collie (00:37:13):
Didn't get a job offer from the Windows team, landed on the Office team instead, which was fine. Programming's something that's got to be your love. It's got to be something that you just really, really enjoyed. Even though I still don't love it. I'm a much better programmer today than I was back then based off of like the necessity of even just like the VBA that I've had to write over the years. The language is different, but the concepts are very similar. I've implemented my own structure and custom data types and things like that and VBA because I had to. There was no other way to do what I needed to do. In college I just didn't have any personal interest like that. It was a big difference. You said that stint at Purdue was like a year?
Vishal Lodha (00:37:53):
Yeah. We had to make some decisions based on I would call it dual career situation. And so, so obviously I be... The timing was perfect in a way, but you know, not great because as I said, I envisioned retired out of Purdue. That's where I started my first job and both my kids were born in Lafayette. West Lafayette area was perfect to be called home. And well, things changed a little bit and we ended up moving to Carmel. And my former boss, he always text me and say, "Are you bored yet?" I'm like, "No, not yet." "Are you bored?" "Not yet." Not yet. And then the way it worked out, they were creating the first ever CIO role for the organization. The organization had grown very quickly from 2,500 FTEs to five grand in no time, employees.
Vishal Lodha (00:38:40):
And so they needed to modernize lot of the systems, backend systems. And so they said, "Hey, we're going to create this role of VP in CIO and I think you would be a good fit. You always wanted to live in Carmel." We're going to basically buy this office building and completely renovate it and scale our operations, and let's talk." As you know, Rob, I never say no to, "Let's talk," right? Something may come out of it. And we talked and it made sense. So my wife also got a role in the life sciences industry here in the area, worked for one of the Fortune companies as well. And so it was just perfect timing. I got some pushback from kids. "Why do we have to do this? Why is it necessary? We are happy." So it worked out and was the CIO there for almost two years. And then the Microsoft opportunity came like, "Let's talk." And, "Sure." And here I am. So no more backtracking, Rob, anymore.
Rob Collie (00:39:36):
That's it. We're going to just sweep the sand behind us. We've always been right here. So now you're an account executive for Microsoft, with certain strategic customers in the life sciences industry. That's as specific as we're going to get, right? That's the move?
Vishal Lodha (00:39:52):
Yeah. Or you can just call it a large strategic customer is fine too.
Rob Collie (00:39:56):
All right. But you already talked about being in life sciences, so it's out of the bag that you're in life sciences, Vishal.
Vishal Lodha (00:40:02):
That's fine. Well, that's my title anyways in my email signature. What are you going to do about it?
Rob Collie (00:40:06):
That's right. That's public record, man.
Vishal Lodha (00:40:08):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:40:09):
So you've had a ringside seat for actual practical on the ground applied technology for a very long time. Really for me, I was inside the bubble in Redmond during a lot of that same timeframe and a tremendous amount has changed. So you were on the ground for the whole cloud revolution. We weren't even talking about cloud. I mean, I remember we did a release of Office 2003, that was originally like code named Office.net. And it was supposed to be the first version of Office that heavily integrated with internet-based services. We didn't have the word cloud yet. And no one could come up with any really good ideas. There were no good ideas as to what that meant. SharePoint became a really big deal in that same timeframe. It had been introduced in the prior release, Office XP. Even though we didn't know it, SharePoint was establishing its foothold and it wasn't a cloud service yet. It was 100% a non-premises or product that you would install and administer at great cost and expense and pain.
Rob Collie (00:41:23):
All of us were like, "Well, that's not internet. It's SharePoint, that's not internet. We need other services." And so we had all kinds of ideas. We had something that was going to be essentially like Azure DataMarket was, a place where you could buy data subscriptions and import them into Excel to cross analyze with other things, and that didn't go anywhere. Azure DataMarket came along years later and it also didn't go anywhere. But yeah, 2003 was the first time we were really talking about what later became the cloud, but we had almost zero traction doing anything about it. And now here we are. I don't think any of us could have conceived of the idea of Office 365 at the time and how that hybridizes between, "I still have really nice rich client functionality. Like I've got a desktop version of Excel. I've got a web version of Excel too, which is crazy, right? I've got a web version of PowerPoint, I've got web versions of everything, but I still have that desktop experience."
Rob Collie (00:42:21):
It's amazing how a really clearly good idea takes a long time to actually find its real manifestation. There's no way in 2003 we could have seen what was coming with SharePoint online and all of that. We tried to force it. And what we ended up with was instead, actually just a really lackluster release of the desktop apps because we put so many resources into these blue sky internet services, ideas, none of which really amounted to a whole lot. And believe it or not, we had deliberately taken every single core app of Office down to a skeleton crew. Each of those teams was like slashed to 20% of its original staffing. It was crazy. Just a crazy time.
Krissy Dyess (00:43:08):
I remember those days. And I remember wondering, "Is this cloud ever going to take off?" Because you heard it, you knew it was coming. And like I think particularly interesting to me would be the healthcare space. My personal feeling was that they were never going to adopt the cloud because of privacy and data sensitivity. We're seeing that today though, right?
Vishal Lodha (00:43:29):
Yeah. So again, cloud was still a very relative term. People were seeing cloud in action. When I say that common man. SaaS services were about to explode. I mean look at what was powering those days, Hotmail or Yahoo or Gmail, right? I mean they were a SaaS service. I mean you were running your mailbox on the web and customers started asking, "Wait a seconds. So if Hotmail and Yahoo and Gmail can run these email services as a SaaS, like must be cloud powered." And it's like, "Hey, how do I get rid of my Exchange servers?" Because that's pain. When email goes down, all fingers point to me like, "Oh, something is down." Everybody recognizes it, right? And so if you look at that and Rob, you might remember those days when they announced first hosted Exchange platforms early in the days, Microsoft called it, I think BPOS and other actually hosted Exchange providers that I used as an IT infrastructure owner in my previous jobs.
Vishal Lodha (00:44:32):
Like, "I don't want to run Exchange servers. I don't want to manage Blackberry integrations." Like FTP. We didn't run FTP servers even at that... Well some did, but we were like, "Okay, let's get a hosting company in plan. Let them manage that infrastructure." So I think email going to cloud really opened eyes for a lot of people. "Wait a second, if our main tool in which we live all day, every day can go to cloud," and I know it was an evolutionary process, but I think that really made people think, "Wait a second. This is serious stuff that can happen."
Rob Collie (00:45:03):
Wow. You when said BPOS I just had all kinds of flashbacks. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long time. You used the OB one thing.
Vishal Lodha (00:45:11):
Well, we committed for acronyms. I had to unleash the library.
Rob Collie (00:45:15):
I know, and you also threw FTP in there. I saw what you did. BPOS, what did that stand for? You have any... Remember. Was it business productivity online services?
Vishal Lodha (00:45:23):
Business productivity online services.
Rob Collie (00:45:24):
Wow. So that was the 365 precursor, the Exchange Online. I've forgotten all about that. What a terrible name, BPOS. I want to go buy me some BPOS. That's what I want. Can't get enough of that.
Vishal Lodha (00:45:38):
Yeah, we started calling it Hostile Exchange because that's a sound a little bit more logical.
Rob Collie (00:45:43):
That's right. I mean there's the official name and then there's the thing that people understand.
Vishal Lodha (00:45:45):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:45:47):
That whole cloud transition's been really interesting. It's really interesting how email seemed to be such a relatively low friction transition. A lot of organizations were pretty eager to no longer manage their own exchange server. They were perfectly happy to have Microsoft manage their exchange server in the cloud. And then after that, though there seemed to be this three or four-year-wall where anything else that was cloud really met a lot of headwind and a lot of resistance. That's my experience of it. Do you remember it the same way?
Vishal Lodha (00:46:24):
Yeah, definitely. And again, part of it is the workloads weren't mature enough. And so they're like, "Yeah, it's there, but it's not like..." I remember talking to a customer and he said, "Well, I've been evaluating this thing for the last seven years and I'm not going to pull the trigger once I know it's mature and I see the value. And I'm like, "Fair. You're absolutely right." Getting to the right point which is a good combination of value and innovation is something everybody looks forward to. I think that innovation took some time to catch up, but once the value was obvious, everyone jumped onto it. And those who were left really missed out on productivity initiatives in their internal organizations.
Rob Collie (00:47:07):
Well, here was the weird irony that we ran into a lot in the mid 2010s was over and over again, being told, "Oh no, no, no, no. BI is way too sensitive for us to trust it in the cloud. No way." And then you ask those same organizations, "So where's your email?" Oh yeah, it's in the cloud. "What's more sensitive than the email accounts of your leadership team? If I was going to sabotage you I'd much rather have access to your CEO's innermost thoughts than to your dashboards." And it was just a really weird time that when it was BI picked by IT organizations as the last stand, like the Alamo against the cloud, because the cloud was a threat or at least a perceived threat to IT back then.
Rob Collie (00:48:00):
Because if you spend your day keeping servers running and someone comes along and says, "We're going to keep your servers running for you." It's natural to question whether you're still going to have a job, or even if you do have a job, how important are you going to be going forward? And it just seemed to me like BI just got picked as the last thing to make this the last stand for no particularly good reason. The email thing just was such a no brainer for them that it just slipped past them. And then they saw the dominoes falling and they said, "Okay, no, we're going to grab this last domino here and make this the one that doesn't fall."
Krissy Dyess (00:48:34):
No, no, no. It was the rooms with the locks, that was the reason, right? Because it was super secure behind the door with the locks. And so they didn't want to give up the location of the data to the cloud which was in the Microsoft resource centers that were protected by barbed wire and actually secure measures. It was the room.
Rob Collie (00:48:54):
It was the room where people like Vishal are born.
Krissy Dyess (00:48:57):
That's right, where Vishal was born.
Vishal Lodha (00:48:58):
I really don't want to go to that room ever again. I mean there's a lot of headaches that come with that room.
Krissy Dyess (00:49:04):
It was really cold. It was really cold. They had to keep it really cool down because of all the...
Vishal Lodha (00:49:09):
It's like all kinds of stuff, heating and cooling and plumbing and flooding and fire and like, "Really, do I want to take care of that?" "No, I don't. I want a seamless operation, and if a mechanism can let me run my operation 24/7 with data replication and fail over mechanisms, who cares? Let's do something that's more productive." But to your point, Rob, if you look at that space. Other tools were also maturing on cloud, just business operations, like HR software suite started to come and they started to be cloud based. Accounting systems were cloud based. I mean, I'm sure you remember QuickBooks Online whenever it came first. What was that? Look at that.
Vishal Lodha (00:49:49):
And so now accountants know about cloud, HR professionals know about cloud. Benefits management tools started to go on cloud. And so suddenly every business operation has an urge to transform because now they have these tools that can be really accessed, and they don't have to wait for innovation because innovation is continuous in cloud. You get features every week, depending on how you do it. I consider my car, I drive an electrical vehicle, and sometimes I get updates once a month and the UI changes and then a new feature lights up. Prior cars I had, I only got what I paid for. There was no incremental value.
Rob Collie (00:50:32):
You just come out in your garage one day and it's got like an extra trunk.
Vishal Lodha (00:50:37):
Wow, that would be good and bad.
Rob Collie (00:50:40):
Like, "Whoa, whoa, where did this trailer come from?" "I downloaded last night."
Vishal Lodha (00:50:45):
So it's like, how do you continue to give that additional benefits, features and continue to improve the experience? It's all driven by cloud.
Krissy Dyess (00:50:53):
I'm just thinking in my mind, you get in and go to start it. And they've just moved the ignition button, the main button that everybody moves, and-
Rob Collie (00:51:00):
And they've renamed it too. [crosstalk 00:51:01].
Krissy Dyess (00:51:01):
And they've renamed it.
Vishal Lodha (00:51:05):
Yeah. I think they would name it fire suppressant.
Krissy Dyess (00:51:07):
FS.
Rob Collie (00:51:09):
I woke up this morning and my car, they changed the toolbar to a ribbon. There's no steering wheel anymore. You wouldn't really want that update. But even Microsoft doesn't do that stuff very often anymore. I was part of a generation that did that like all over the place. That was one of the things that we did. Let's move things around. Okay. So the fight over whether or not to go to the cloud, that fight's over. I mean, there's still a few hold out pockets like the Japanese soldiers who eventually surrendered in 1974. They didn't know that the war was actually over in the island caves. There's going to be some of that going on. But even when you see things like the department of defense is using cloud services you know that's no longer a question.
Rob Collie (00:51:55):
In your experience did IT's fear of the cloud, was that prophecy, did that come true? Did a lot of people in corporate IT lose their jobs as a result of the transition to the cloud?
Vishal Lodha (00:52:11):
I don't think so. I mean, those who were very interested in upskilling and trying to learn something new were able to transition. It was not a technical transition in my opinion, it was a mindset transition. What do you want to hang onto? What W you like to hug and you don't need to, you can still do things. And its was more about things work differently in cloud. But cloud also enables a lot of additional opportunities that were not that before. So if I were to look at my team and the traditional on-prem infrastructure they would handle. In fact, I like after transitioning to cloud, I would get more head count because I would be able to enable transformation, new features, new functionality a lot faster because I don't have to worry about prepping the platform. The platform continuously in no eight, and based on the feature sets that get lit up, I'm ready to take advantage and put them in my business workflows.
Vishal Lodha (00:53:17):
Well, I need somebody to take advantage of what has been turned on. And so it's these people who are maybe racking or stacking or cabling, depending on the role or administering those servers. Like suddenly now they're like, "Well, I'm a cloud engineer or a cloud administrator. I can do this, this, this to enable my business to take advantage of. While they take advantage of this, I'll go and enable other functionalities on the platform so someone else in the pipeline can take advantage of what's coming next." So it's like a continuous cycle and continuous feedback loop.
Rob Collie (00:53:48):
I love that. I've been saying for so many years that when I first heard the term business intelligence, it sounded cool. It sounded edgy. It sounded progressive. We were really going to do something really fascinating and valuable. And the reality of the 2000s version of BI and before was anything but those things. It was really, really, really slow and non-nimble and not smart, and lowest common denominator, and very unsatisfying, and really fundamentally wasteful. And it's only in the last decade, I will call the Power BI decade, that original excitement about what's possible. That's just the exciting possibilities in this space. It's like, we've just recently lived up to the excitement that that original term suggested.
Rob Collie (00:54:45):
Just listening to you now it occurred to me that the same thing has finally happened with IT, because the first time I heard the term information technology, it's hard to transport yourself back in time to when that was a brand new term. But when you first heard that term, it had that same imagination capturing capability to it. It was a good name. It was chosen well. It's just that the reality of the world was not remotely ready to deliver on that level of promise. And then over time you start to... Information technology, you don't say it with that same glimmer in your eye. You start to sound more and more boring, and then eventually it just becomes IT. And it starts to feel like a million scenes from the movie Office Space. Bureaucracy on top of bureaucracy and TPS report. Here's another fake acronym, but hey, we're going to ding the bell anyway.
Rob Collie (00:55:38):
But the transition to the cloud has allowed us to at least begin the transition to information technology being an offensive tool. Something that's able to create an asset as opposed to just like table stakes of doing business and therefore a very defensive mindset where you only get noticed when things go wrong. To be part of a strategic initiative for a business that actually improves and transforms the way that business operates in a positive way is not something you associate with it in the way that we've come to think of it.
Rob Collie (00:56:15):
But maybe, maybe just maybe. Another way to say it is that if we'd always had cloud infrastructure, IT probably would've almost immediately been realizing that original potential. And we would've never had to go through this era of starting to think of IT as really stodgy bureaucracy. We could have dodged all that, if only we'd had cloud from the beginning.
Vishal Lodha (00:56:36):
Yeah. It's about how do you create that instant value and then how do you help realize that value? It's always there. It's, how do you show that? And once somebody gets the hang of it, it's just continuous innovation, continuous value change innovation. It just becomes part of your culture and ecosystem.
Rob Collie (00:56:55):
So in a average day for you or week, interacting with Microsoft's strategic customers, what are the themes that come up? What are the things that you find yourself talking about most frequently these days? And I'm sure that some of them are just relatively the basics of being in business type of stuff, but the stuff that you could think of them as being like technology trends or cultural trends or minds set trends. What are the things that become like the common beats for you these days?
Vishal Lodha (00:57:28):
Yeah. It's a loaded question Rob, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:57:28):
That's the way I like them.
Vishal Lodha (00:57:35):
That's a great question. I've also seen the trends change every two, three years, right? But to start with, we're hearing similar trends, that's a good thing. Number one is there are certain things that are not our core competency and we really want to get out of it. We want to focus on what is our core competency. So if you look at a life sciences or just in general healthcare customers, whether they are payer providers, MedTech, pharma, what are their core competency? Most of them want to continue to run their business very effectively, be very productive, but not worry about things. That's something they're not going to continue to build core competency on. So some of the examples I talk about all the time is, what are some things they don't want to deal with? Most of the infrastructure like outsourcing, especially getting out of the data center business.
Vishal Lodha (00:58:27):
They have run for decades, but they've realized very quickly that public cloud providers can do it a lot more differently, a lot more efficiently, a lot more secure. Customers don't have to worry about the challenges of ups and downs, seasonality, elasticity. They have lot more decisions to make when it comes to flexibility, which was not the case. If Rob, you were to buy equipment for your business for next three years, and then you realize you only need half of it. You have a sunk cost. So that's no longer the case. So they're like, "We'll focus on what our core themes are. And then what we'll do is we'll continue to evaluate what are the trends in our core business? What are the technology consideration and recommendation? What our competitors are doing. What are the best practices? What are the improvement opportunities? How can we simplify our workflows? How can we empower our business to accelerate faster?"
Vishal Lodha (00:59:22):
So I think the trend is moving more and more. And I think we are at one point, IT and business are actually converging and there's decent overlap. In fact, some customers I know, there's core IT teams, but there's also embedded IT teams within business. They're more aligned to their business transformative initiatives, right? So things like that. So there's definitely some things large customers don't want to do just because it just doesn't make sense for them anymore. The flat model is not flexible. They've realized that they're more secure in cloud because there's plethora of tools and platforms and technologies in cloud that actually has them keep secure. They really don't want to develop little bit of everything just because it's not good use of the investments.
Vishal Lodha (01:00:08):
I mean, they just say, "We'll leave the security to our cloud. We'll monitor and we'll have folks from our side, but we're not going to deliver innovations and security tool sets compared to what key players in the market do. So I think that whole trend is changing. We have seen a lot of change obviously, the transitioning, customers are evolving. Some of them are evolving very fast. That gives big tech players an opportunity to innovate faster because now we say there's a customer waiting to consume that innovation and take that innovation and apply it in whatever form fashion to their business to empower [inaudible 01:00:48]. So we make a lot of tech, but we make a lot of tech so that our customers can use that tech to build their tech.
Vishal Lodha (01:00:55):
So what Satya says is if you want to work for a cool company, don't come to Microsoft. If you want work for a company that makes their customers cool come to Microsoft. So I heard this few years back and it really stuck to me. We create tech that empowers other business to deliver their tech. I mean, obviously underlying platform is ours, but they can use that to build their thing in whatever form or fashion and deliver the impact.
Rob Collie (01:01:23):
I ran into an old colleague of mine, who I worked with at Microsoft many years ago. I ran into him one time and he was laughing because he now works for Adobe. And he was laughing saying... Because he's a really cool guy. He's way cooler than me. Like he runs in some really cool social circles, unlike me. You're stuck with me. And he's laughing about... Well, we're stuck with each other, Vishal, and Krissy, although Krissy's probably cooler than us. So he said, "It's really funny, when I worked at Microsoft, I was vilified in my social circle for working for the man. And now I work for Adobe and everyone just accepts that. It's so cool. I'm a cool guy. I work for Adobe."
Rob Collie (01:02:06):
"But it's funny when I worked at Microsoft, everything I was doing there and everything that everyone around me was doing was working to build technology to make human beings more productive, and I was vilified as working for the man. Now I work for Adobe," he says. "And all I do, is I build technology to allow marketers to manipulate people in the world, right? And now I'm a cool guy. Now I'm edgy." He's like, "This is really, really, really backwards." He's like, "I'll take it. I'll take the prestige. I guess people like it, but it's backwards." I agree. Microsoft's platforms, and that's what they are like they're tools. It's a business model. It's not charity, but it is aligned with a lot of actual progress. It's aligned with higher productivity. Well, that's about as good as it gets. In capitalism that's about as good as it gets, increase productivity.
Vishal Lodha (01:02:58):
And with focus on industry, right? So if you look at the transition, we were very focused on the cloud. Definitely came to the market later than some of our competitors, right? No, not about it. But-
Rob Collie (01:03:08):
If you ignore the game changing release that was Office 2003, we really changed the world there.
Vishal Lodha (01:03:18):
Absolutely. Again, we came to the party late. It actually gave us advantage in a way. We saw where the gaps were, where the opportunities were. And if you go back in time, we really started getting everybody's attention, it was mostly PaaS services. Some of the SaaS services, but PaaS platform was like really standing out. That actually gave our customers to modernize Legacy apps into modern or cloud native apps. And that was great. And while that was going on, we were really catching up on IaaS space. And came a time, a few years back, we were at parity, whether it is SaaS, IaaS, PaaS. In fact SaaS is still great. Office 365, hundreds of millions of users, right? Depending on the day active users, things like that. And what's interesting is Rob. Now the transition is not within cloud, it's cloud for industry.
Vishal Lodha (01:04:08):
So Microsoft has announced several industry cloud in the last 18 months, Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare. And we are obviously doing some great work and manufacturing, retail, and just whole industry verticalization. And there are going to be solutions that Microsoft won't have a very specific applicability and we won't necessarily get into it. But that's where we rely on a massive ecosystem of partners. And I actually lost track from last inspire. Like, are we at 15,000 plus partners or 20,000? Whatever number is, but it's like those partners are well-versed in Microsoft platforms and technologies. And they also understand the business needs, whether it is in the healthcare space or very specific plant level, operational technology problem. They'll use our tech to build a solution to meet those gaps. And so when you bring that together with industry cloud and other thing, it actually really becomes a very strong proposition for our customers.
Rob Collie (01:05:10):
So what is it that makes these industry cloud solutions? What is it distinguishing about one of these new cloud services or cloud platforms that's aimed at an industry? Does it have like a customized bundle or does it actually contain services that just don't exist outside of it?
Vishal Lodha (01:05:28):
The services are all there, but customers are like, "Hey, Microsoft, make it easy for us." We don't want to be the general contractor stitching it together. So let's take an example and I'm by no means a expert in the provider space, but imagine the life cycle of a patient provider interaction. So let's look at telehealth. For a second for a doctor to schedule that you'll be using a separate tool. Then from there, you would obviously do some documentation in different tool and just the whole workflow. Now what happens is something like Microsoft Cloud for Healthcare, you can actually bring all these SaaS and PaaS components together. So what does that mean? We can actually create a Teams like call within a custom framework. Doesn't necessarily appear to be a Teams call, but it's actually powered by the same technology, something called Azure Communication Service, right?
Vishal Lodha (01:06:19):
And you can do all that. You can move that data into the next staging area, wherever that needs to be. You can use cognitive services in Azure for speech recognition or those things. At some point maybe you can use sentiment analysis to figure out how was the patient doctor interaction. And so these services are all available at standalone services and there's a lot of them. It's like, "How do you put them together in a way that is more well-structured, well-packaged, easy to consume and makes our customer who in fact help other customers or patients just a lot easier?"
Vishal Lodha (01:06:59):
I think the focus on industry cloud is going to be more and more just because customer expect us to meet them where they need to go. And they really don't want to have the burden of putting this together. They'll still do, obviously. It's an 80, 20 game. If it's done 80%, and 20%, they need to tweak, that's easier, but we just give them the ingredients and say, "Okay, it's up to you whatever you want to make out of it." It's a little bit of a challenge because then it actually slows down their digital transformation journey.
Rob Collie (01:07:29):
Well, that's fascinating. That is a very clear and I think wise, but still a very clear departure from Microsoft's traditional strategies. You're actually at this point building these industry clouds, they actually contain not just services, but you could describe it as applications that were purpose built for that industry. As you say, could have been built by the customer or by a partner based off of the foundational services in the Microsoft cloud.
Vishal Lodha (01:07:56):
Yeah. And if you look at our... And you might have heard about this and so some other... Three clouds, right? Microsoft call it productivity cloud, and application infrastructure cloud and business applications. What we're doing is the capability exists. We have the ability to make it happen but as a silo tool. You know there's a tool in Office 365 called Bookings. What can you do with Bookings? Well, you can publish a calendar and you can make it easy for your customers to schedule a meeting with you because they can see your free, busy and all that stuff. Great. "Well, how do we bring that into patient scheduling system?" Well, we already have the underlying technology, so let use some of that to create patient scheduling. Then obviously on a BI side, we have a lot of tools in data analytics, like, "Okay, how do we use that to create patient insights?"
Vishal Lodha (01:08:45):
We have a very decent platform in the form of Teams that can help us interact with patients and tell you, "Okay, how do we convert that into virtual health sessions, things like that? How do we collaborate between provider teams, between medical professionals, nurses, to technicians, care coordination, care team collaboration?" All those tools and capabilities existed. What we did was we said, "We need to apply those to specific industry to make it easy for them to run their operations. Again, data interoperability, clinical analytics. So all those are... And you don't have to worry about security and compliance of each of those silo tools because now you're getting platform levels. So you're covered from security compliance and privacy perspective at a platform level, versus individually certified scheduling system, inside system telemedicine or virtual health system, right?
Vishal Lodha (01:09:38):
I mean, the power of platform is so much better than silo tools. I've told this to my customers, "Hey, listen, customer, we might not have a gold medal in every category. We are not number one in every category. But if you look at who is the common denominator, we might have multi pull medals in the same category. So if you have to choose two or three strategic partners, you will always see us there." Because then it's like, "Well, they're not there yet. They're not 100 but they're 95, 98. Okay, great. If I have a bunch of 95, that's... Or if I have less strategic partners to deal with, that's better for me from relationship manager because I am okay with 95 to 98 versus have multiple partners with a 99 or a hundred score." How do you reduce that overhead?
Rob Collie (01:10:26):
This has come up on this show multiple times and usually under the topic of career skills for an individual, if you're 90th percentile that a bunch of things that are required together, you're actually 99th percentile at the overall thing. Right. We talk about life is a decathlon. You don't want a 99% shot putter or a 99% javelin thrower. You want to win the decathlon. So yeah, I think that's the same thing raising its head again. Yeah, Microsoft is mid 90s, upper 90s at basically a lot of different things. And so yeah, that's a decathlon, Microsoft. That should be the next ad campaign, Microsoft life is a decathlon.
Vishal Lodha (01:11:08):
I've been having multiple customer conversation and it's like, you can look at the Gartner Magic Quadrant, and if there is a recurring name on that quadrant, that's Microsoft. Again, we might not be always at the top, but we will be a common denominator always. So it just makes it a little bit easier.
Rob Collie (01:11:26):
There were two things you were saying earlier that I wanted to circle back to that were light bulb moments for me, again, because they tie into themes that we've been seeing over and over again. One of them for me, it goes all the way back to my days designing software at Microsoft is this difference between nouns and verbs. So you were talking about IT. Now we were talking about IT now in this more offensive role, like working with the business on what we can do, what can accomplish. And I think that one of the problems that previous it business relations was that IT, a lot of like the status, the stature of IT was defined in terms of what they were responsible for. It's the noun like, "I own this, I own that. I'm responsible for this. I'm responsible for that."
Rob Collie (01:12:13):
And if you, you come into that environment and say to them, "Hey, you're not going to be responsible for these things, this, this, this, and this anymore." It's natural that, that would trigger an immune response. But it sounds like, and I think this is a really, really positive change for the world that IT is moving from defining its worth from nouns, static things that they're responsible for to a more of a verb like self-measuring stick. Like what are the things that we do? What are the things that we help the business do? What are the things that we accomplish? And it's just over and over and over again, I'm struck by how much better things and more productive and more accurate your view of the world invaluable becomes if you start to dismiss the nouns as not that important, and focus instead on the verb. Like, what's the actions? What are the actions we're taking? And to hear that happening at the IT cultural level is very, very, very encouraging.
Vishal Lodha (01:13:09):
Yeah. I remember very well IT used to be business support function. That has changed to business enablement function. So IT is now more of an enabler. A lot of business initiatives, especially transformative have definitely a digital component to it that's driven by IT solutions, right? So as I said earlier, if there's an overlap. It's really sometimes hard to figure out, depending on the role the person is in, "Where do you spend more time in your work week? Is it more on the IT side or business side?" Some of those boundaries are blurring fast, even in the data and analytics space. I mean, Rob, you work with so many business decision makers, a lot of technical talent actually is now embedded in business organization.
Rob Collie (01:13:56):
That's the other thing that I was going to circle back to is you mentioned the hub and spoke IT model where there's a central IT team, but then there's also IT teams embedded within each business unit. And even if we're working with an organization that doesn't have that formally established yet, if all we're talking to them about is their analytic strategy and their governance and adoption strategies for Power BI in particular, we're always encouraging a hub and spoke model be developed. You'd need authors, people who are creating data models and reports embedded in each business unit. And they're already there. Those people that you need to empower and light up are already there. You just need to get them the right access to tools and training and maybe some kickstart projects.
Rob Collie (01:14:46):
And then those people become your ambassadors back to the hub. Ambassadors, when you're blurring the lines between business and IT, at that interface, there are people. And if you want to blur those lines effectively, you're going to need ambassadors of one flavor or another, right? And so if you have a hub and spoke IT model, what that means is that you've got people who are very IT savvy in the spokes, the radial, and those people can speak the IT language, but because they're closely aligned with the business, they also can speak that business language. And so as a result, the needs of that business unit can become much more clearly communicated and understood to the IT galactic center or point. This is everywhere now, whether formally or informally, if you're not hub and spoking and developing ambassadors, you're not going to perform well in the modern competitive marketplace.
Vishal Lodha (01:15:46):
Yeah, definitely. You know, we talk about a lot of disruption. Well, it's okay to disrupt ourselves to do something that is more aligned to the transformation needs. And we might go through the cycle periodically and it's totally fine. Change is not easy, but organizations who have had a very open mindset have really done well. I mean, you look at some of the biggest market gaps out there, right? I mean, a lot of them is about how they embrace technology and how they manage change. And so I think it's going to be an ongoing thing. And that also means a pressure of keeping up to everything and upskilling and trends becomes more important. Especially competitive knowledge like, "Okay, what are others doing in that space? And are we leaders or laggers, right?"
Rob Collie (01:16:34):
Here's a question I've been dying to ask you for about 45 minutes. Is that a squash court behind you in your basement?
Vishal Lodha (01:16:39):
It is a racket ball court, but you're absolutely right. I'm surprised it took you that long to observe it. Or maybe you observed it, but you didn't want to ask, and you only wanted to ask for the last 45 minutes. But this is $10 chance because of COVID. Obviously we were looking for activities. There's only so much you can do with your standard activity. Okay, we watch TV and we go out, that's fine, but what else? We're not going to the gym. So we said, "Huh, how do we do this?" I close my eyes. And I look at... I used to play squash. So Rob, you're absolutely right. More racketball recently just because I can't keep up with the squash ball anymore. Racketball is a little bit easier on me. I'm like, "Wait a second, we can do that if you can find the right ball."
Vishal Lodha (01:17:23):
And so I look around, I'm like, bingo. How do we do that is you basically buy $5 masking tape and get help from some of the helper. In my case, my elder daughter. And we basically got that covered in like 15, 20 minutes. And by the way, it's not just on the wall. It's like, I don't know how much you can see, but this proper division on the floor it's carpet, but the ball bounces pretty well. And I had a friend come over and he was sweating in 15 minutes, trust me.
Rob Collie (01:17:50):
You get really competitive in a carpeted basement racketball court.
Vishal Lodha (01:17:56):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:17:57):
When I asked the question, I fully expected, I was just being snarky. Like, "Is that a squash court?" "Oh no, it is." It actually is a racketball court.
Krissy Dyess (01:18:05):
Or one of the backgrounds, because some backgrounds, I thought maybe that could the case.
Rob Collie (01:18:09):
Oh yeah. That's one that you just get off the basement with racketball court.
Vishal Lodha (01:18:14):
There are some meetings where my background is blurry and there are some it's not, depending on what it is. And in fact, one of my senior leaders asked that question and he's like, "This is pretty cool." Rob, what I was proud about was like, "Well, first of all, we have something to do different, but, "Hey, it only cost me five bucks." Nothing can beat that whole excitement about getting accomplished with five bucks. It's actually less than a hamburger, right?
Rob Collie (01:18:37):
I think you should establish some sort of live YouTube channel around this basement, racketball championships.
Vishal Lodha (01:18:45):
Entries open now, all age groups.
Rob Collie (01:18:53):
I mean, it would be one of the most awesome, riveting and ridiculous at the same time. I think it's going to be awesome. We need to make this a thing.
Vishal Lodha (01:19:02):
Yeah. I mean the only downside is, and I've checked it, we might have to get the dry wall done again, but it's been a year now and really nothing has happened to the drywall. So either we are not intense players or our drywall is really good quality, I don't know, but I don't see any downside right now. Everything looks good.
Rob Collie (01:19:20):
I have a Halloween costume that is basically the tennis player from The Royal Tenenbaums which looks a lot like Bjorn Borg from the '70s where it was modeled off of. I tell you what, I'm going to put that on with the tight white shorts hiked way up and just show up with my headbands and my wrist bans and my sunglasses. I'm going to ring your doorbell and say, "Let's play."
Vishal Lodha (01:19:43):
Last play. You might actually see a racket on one of the chairs behind me.
Rob Collie (01:19:46):
I do. Yeah.
Vishal Lodha (01:19:47):
It's hanging on like...
Rob Collie (01:19:49):
I think you have to, when we're going to turn this into a YouTube channel, there's going to need to be costumes. You just have to make it over the top.
Vishal Lodha (01:19:57):
Let's see what my costumes look like. Oh, sorry. I have a shorts. Okay, that's all.
Rob Collie (01:20:01):
Same. Krissy, were you sitting on any questions that you wish I'd stopped yapping so you could sneak in and ask?
Krissy Dyess (01:20:09):
The AI side of things, especially in healthcare, I can imagine that that would have to be trending up.
Vishal Lodha (01:20:17):
Yeah, big time. I'm happy to give some generic examples if need be.
Krissy Dyess (01:20:21):
Yeah. That'd be fantastic.
Rob Collie (01:20:22):
Give us some generic examples.
Krissy Dyess (01:20:24):
Yeah, because I'm curious.
Vishal Lodha (01:20:25):
So how many, many times this has happened to you? At least it has happened to me, every single time I walk into doctor's office, you get a paper with a clipboard and a pen. "Can you fill that up?" "Well, I thought you knew about me coming in. I thought I filled that information last time." Why aren't we using AI to automate some of this? "Oh, Vishal is here. Last time he filled this form based on cognitive services and AI combination. Looks like the form should look like this. So let's print it for him." I call it predictive analytics, like predictive form builder, Rob. And like, "Let's print it for him, and if there are any changes, he'll make the changes, rest everything is... Like it's a very simple example, but AI, all it is, is nothing but a trainable model. You just improve that model over time.
Vishal Lodha (01:21:16):
Even in manufacturing, I'm seeing part. How do you figure out the defects on the parts? People will be on the floor looking at the parts, "Oh, this doesn't look right." But when you start applying cognitive services like vision and use the vision services to recognize those defects, then you're basically using AI to separate good parts from bad parts. So again, this probably would be more applicable on the MedTech side. Again on the healthcare side, I think AI should be able to dictate the workflow of interaction between a patient and provider based on the questions that were answered last time, based on the changes in the form. I think if we ask these questions, then we are covered.
Vishal Lodha (01:21:56):
I think there's a lot of redundant work that can be eliminated by AI because AI can capture and make stuff that's more relevant for that interaction. I'm just thinking of any more specific examples. I come across a lot of them.
Krissy Dyess (01:22:11):
Well, for me that's a big relief because I've been putting off that appointment because I don't want to fill out the paperwork again.
Vishal Lodha (01:22:16):
Yeah. I just don't understand why they have to make me print-
Krissy Dyess (01:22:20):
I've always wondered.
Vishal Lodha (01:22:20):
And again, like environmentally, why are we printing so much paper? And some commissions are doing it. Before you come, you submit a web-based form to them. As for your text appointment, you'll get a link and you submit, and I'm like, "Use AI to send me that pre-populated form based on what I submitted last time. And I'll submit my changes on the phone or my device. And then we have it. And the next time we come, we're looking at iteration." So the models are smart enough to detect those changes. I don't even know if it's all AI, but you know, some combination of logic and change data management can do that. But yeah, I think the AI should be able to guide you to say, "Okay, now's the time for Vishal to fill the form? His appointment is three days out. Let's use the scheduling system to alert him and get this thing out so that by the time he's in the office, everything is taken care of." I really think there's a lot of workflows in healthcare system that needs to be streamlined. You're still very traditional.
Rob Collie (01:23:19):
I just changed dentists and when I called the dental office, they asked me how I'd heard of them. And I told them who referred me. So then I got the text link before the appointment with the online forms that you described. And of course, one of the questions is, "How did you hear of us?" And I told them who referred me. And then I went into the office from my appointment and face-to-face they asked me, "How did you hear us?"
Krissy Dyess (01:23:47):
They just wanted to be really sure.
Rob Collie (01:23:50):
And I told them who referred me. This happened yesterday. That's yesterday.
Vishal Lodha (01:23:55):
And at that point you were ready to be referred to a different dentist, pretty much.
Rob Collie (01:24:01):
That's a minor thing. So many times, technology gets held sometimes. This is weird. I can talk out of both sides of my mouth, right? Any given day, I can say that that humans are more important and the humans are everything. And other days I can say like, "Well, humans are fallible and technology might be better." I had an interaction with a doctor recently where I told this doctor that I had this problem and it started about the time that I cut back on my alcohol consumption. He was so in his own little zone about dealing with the problems that he deals with and trying to make that problem go away that at some point when he couldn't figure out what was wrong, he just turned to me and said, "Well, maybe you should just go back to your old routine." I'm looking at him going, "Are you saying as a medical professional that I should increase my alcohol consumption?"
Rob Collie (01:24:48):
And then he took a pass and said, "Well, you should take that up with your personal care physician." And I like, "I am never going to be in your office ever again." An AI would've been smarter than to say that, right?
Krissy Dyess (01:24:59):
That's where we need the bots. We need the bots to step up.
Rob Collie (01:25:01):
We need a bot there to not say the dumb thing.
Krissy Dyess (01:25:04):
That's right.
Vishal Lodha (01:25:05):
Yeah. And even sentiment analysis. AI can help you understand patient's mood and where they're going. Do they need extra caring and feeding? Those kind of things. I mean, you have a long way to go.
Rob Collie (01:25:15):
Yeah. He needed some sort of warning tone in his ears, like, "Uh-oh, you said something not so bright."
Krissy Dyess (01:25:31):
I actually could use one of those too.
Rob Collie (01:25:33):
Yeah. Well, I guess we all could, but...
Vishal Lodha (01:25:37):
Talked about AI, Kriss. Another example is, I sometimes schedule meeting using Cortana. I just tell Cortana, "Hey, find a free time on my calendar and give three options to the customer," and they pick, and sends the invite on my behalf, right? That's clear AI in action. I'm sure healthcare can take advantage of it and cut down on some of the human overhead and apply that where we need more in the clinical side, but we'll see.
Rob Collie (01:26:01):
Vishal, you're a very important person, people know you. We appreciate you spending so much time with us. It was a great conversation.
Vishal Lodha (01:26:08):
No, I really enjoyed this format, really. It felt like we were at the happy hour, Rob. Basically we had a bigger group this time, but it was open conversation and really we could speak our minds. And I think this is my first podcast. I've done some of these round tables and fireside chats in my previous role, but not a podcast. So really excited to see what the outcome is. I'm a little bit embarrassed to share this once it's done with my family members, just because they're going to say, "Well, I don't think that was cool." And you know, he's like, "Oh, probably your rating is not going to be that high," is the remark I'm going to get. So not that I'm competing with Arun-.
Rob Collie (01:26:42):
Tough crowd.
Vishal Lodha (01:26:43):
Not that I'm competing with the Arun, but I did it for my own fun, and-
Rob Collie (01:26:47):
You're tops in the category of podcast guests who've conducted the interview from racketball court.
Vishal Lodha (01:26:53):
That is something good.
Rob Collie (01:26:54):
Yeah.
Vishal Lodha (01:26:56):
Well, Rob, you're more than welcome to join here for a game or two, whenever you are up for it.
Rob Collie (01:27:01):
I'm vaccinated.
Vishal Lodha (01:27:03):
So am.
Rob Collie (01:27:03):
I can't wait to get injured in a game of carpeted basement-
Krissy Dyess (01:27:09):
And don't forget the costume. That's the most important part.
Rob Collie (01:27:11):
Oh yeah.
Krissy Dyess (01:27:14):
You need the costume.
Rob Collie (01:27:14):
I need the... It'll just... Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Vishal Lodha (01:27:15):
Yeah. And what we'll do is we'll turn on this webcam, just like it is and we'll play the game and we can actually broadcast to Krissy and Luke. I don't even-
Krissy Dyess (01:27:23):
I think the ratings are going to go way up if we do that. I'm going to do some... I'll be running and I'll end up crashing over that chair.
Vishal Lodha (01:27:34):
Or you will go extra in an attempt to reach you might just go overboard and you might land on that ping pong table also, Rob.
Rob Collie (01:27:40):
That's right. The last time I played racketball, I separated my shoulder running into the wall. Guaranteed to happen again for sure.
Vishal Lodha (01:27:50):
Awesome. Thank you, guys.
Krissy Dyess (01:27:51):
All right. Thank you.
Announcer (01:27:53):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a day-to-day!
Chris Webb is an OG in the Microsoft data universe, having long-time knowledge of the Microsoft Data Platform...even pre-dating Rob's own experience with the tools! He's a Principal Program Manager on Microsoft's elite Power BI Customer Advisory Team (The CAT Team)! He and Rob have known each other for a long time. Their relationship was, at times, adversarial. Now, though, they are allies that spread the gospel of Power BI and the Microsoft Power Platform! References in this episode:
Hitler Hits A Breaking Point With Tableau American Chopper Meme Episode Timeline: * 4:05 - Chris's gateway drug into Microsoft BI was MDX, Training challenges and saving souls, and the predecessor to Analysis Services
* 17:00 - Chris's OLAP experience, DAX vs MDX, Chris and Rob reflect on a decade old nerd fight
* 34:40 - Dave Grohl and Ratatouille, why we need certain functions and OLAP, and the power of PR,
* 50:00 - Tableau to Power BI migration, self-service BI, PBI's feedback system, and Excel adopters
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome, friends. Today's guest is Chris Webb. There really aren't many people who can claim as many years of experience with the evolving Microsoft data platform as Chris can. I myself have been around this particular campfire for almost 20 years and Chris predates me by quite a bit. He was one of the OG Microsoft BI professionals and celebrities, so he has seen a lot. He's practically a historian of all of this stuff while at the same time being very much highly active in this space today.
Rob Collie (00:00:36):
Chris and I first met each other professionally sort of like in the formative years of 2010, that era, when Power Pivot and the tabular Analysis Services model was first coming to market. And from the get-go in the early days, we were an opposition to each other. We had some pretty fierce email arguments like big tough guys. But that was all a long time ago and things have changed so much, and really in hindsight, we were both right. We were both keying in on opposite sides of something really important and we're in a very, very friendly place with one another these days.
Rob Collie (00:01:12):
And it's really nice to get together and talk with an old adversary who now very much is completely an ally. It was long overdue and he's just an amazing conversationalist. We had a really good time. I hope you enjoy it as well, so let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:29):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:01:34):
This is the Raw Data By P3 Adaptive Podcast with your host Rob Collie and your cohost Thomas LaRrock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data By P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:58):
Welcome to the show, Chris Webb.
Chris Webb (00:01:59):
Hi, there.
Rob Collie (00:02:00):
How are you today?
Chris Webb (00:02:01):
It's five o'clock on a Friday afternoon in the UK, so this is the last thing that I'll be doing before the weekend. But I can't think of a better way to finish the week.
Rob Collie (00:02:10):
Well, I couldn't think of a better way to finish the week than like being in a British pub about this time. There's just something about the way y'all do beer. I think you figured it out. I prefer the English pub experience. I just feel like the combination of taste and drinkability and temperature and all of that, I think you've really got it nailed down over there.
Chris Webb (00:02:28):
So you're not going to get at me for warm beer or anything? Are you?
Rob Collie (00:02:31):
No, I actually-
Chris Webb (00:02:32):
This is usually what people say about British beer.
Rob Collie (00:02:35):
No, I have really no complaints at all about the British pub experience. As far as I'm concerned, for me, I find it optimal. I wish I could get exactly that sort of experience over here. Instead of you've got to drink the Triple APA, it's whatever. Anyway.
Chris Webb (00:02:49):
It's going to be a bit like that over here as well, to be honest, so-
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
Is it really?
Chris Webb (00:02:52):
All the old pubs are closing down and there's craft breweries popping up, but times change, times change. The kids, they want the Triple APAs.
Rob Collie (00:03:00):
They want the Triple APAs. Well, not everything is progress.
Chris Webb (00:03:05):
Yes. Well, nevermind. Even if we don't have the beer, we can have the kind of rambling half drunk conversation that doesn't really go anywhere and doesn't really mean anything.
Rob Collie (00:03:13):
That's right. Maybe that's what I'm really confusing it all for. Maybe that's the thing I like.
Rob Collie (00:03:18):
You're a number of things you're on the CAT team at Microsoft-
Chris Webb (00:03:21):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:03:22):
... and you're also Cross Join.
Chris Webb (00:03:25):
Well, I was, but I still am as far as my blog goes. I didn't sell my domain or anything. I've still got that.
Rob Collie (00:03:31):
You've had a long time ringside seat for the evolution and development of the Microsoft BI platform. People think of me as being a long time insider, but I think your involvement in this whole story predates mine. When did you first discover the Microsoft BI stack?
Chris Webb (00:03:52):
Would it be been '98, 1998?
Rob Collie (00:03:57):
Way before me, maybe like four years, but that's a long time back then.
Chris Webb (00:04:01):
I was an early adopter, I think. Definitely.
Rob Collie (00:04:04):
What was the gateway drug there? How did you stumble into it?
Chris Webb (00:04:07):
I was working at a company they put me on a project to evaluate this brand new OLAP Server coming from Microsoft, and that was it. I was the first and only person in the world to fall in love with MDX. People are rude about it nowadays, people are openly rude about it. Even Microsoft people are openly rude about it. But it was and is a beautiful language and a beautiful product and I loved it from the very beginning. Even though it's been a while since I've written an MDX, I think it's one of those things that I'll carry to my grave.
Chris Webb (00:04:41):
It's my dad's 80th birthday today, and when I am 80, if you were to open up an antique copy of Windows 7 and pop open SQL Management Studio, even after like 35 more years, I would be able to write an MDX query, I'm sure.
Rob Collie (00:04:56):
That's funny, that's obviously exactly the opposite of my experience. Every six months, I would forget that I hated MDX and I'd ask someone at Microsoft to teach it to me. And I'd be like, "Look, all I want to do is write an if. Just want to write an if." And we'd be the 15, 30 minutes in to hierarchies and all that and I go, "Oh, right. I forgot. Yeah, this sucks. I don't want to do this."
Chris Webb (00:05:17):
Well, that was always the problem. When I was doing training, I did a lot of training back in the day when I was self-employed. And I remember I did this training course once in Germany and there was somebody on the course, it was an MDX training course. And there was somebody on the course and I recognized them, you recognize people from different places. And I said to this guy, "You've been on this course before." And he said, "Yes, this is the third time I've been on your MDX training course."
Chris Webb (00:05:39):
And he said, "Well, the first time I did it, I thought it was a really great course, but then I got back to the office and I didn't use it. And then about a year later I had some training budgets, so I thought I'd come on to your course again. So I came on the course and it was great, but I didn't use it. And now I'm in a new company and they've got some training budget and I forgotten MDX, so I thought I'd come on your course again." So I think that's a vote of confidence in my training, even if.
Rob Collie (00:06:04):
Well, MDX training, which you're just talking about, it was one of the original subscription models. I have got a really good monthly recurring revenue of returning students. There's like a six month wavelength, they come back.
Chris Webb (00:06:17):
That's the ideal thing. Why look for new customers when you can sell the same thing to your existing customers over and over again?
Rob Collie (00:06:23):
In fairness, I had the same experience one time with a whole team that I trained on Power Pivot back before Power BI existed. And it changed the way I thought about training and it changed the way that I messaged it going forward. This group of Excel analysts who are completely overworked and behind, their manager brought me in to train them, and I did. And then like a year later, they call me back and I went back and trained the exact same people on the exact same thing.
Rob Collie (00:06:50):
It was worth a post-mortem, like I sort of interviewed like, "What happened?" And they got the training, and the next day after the training, they went back to their jobs, which had been on pause during the training, a couple of days of training. And so stuff had just piled up, they told themselves, "We'll dig out first. We'll go and do, we use the old tools, the regular Excel VLOOKUP stuff. We'll do that, we'll dig out and then we'll do the new stuff." Well, no, no, you're not. The freshest day is that first day.
Rob Collie (00:07:18):
If you don't pick to start using it that day, it's not like the following day is going to be easier. It's going to be incrementally harder. And so I started telling people that to a certain extent, people listen, some of them don't, but I would tell them sort of like... Once I had them in three quarters of the way through the first day, I would tell them, "Now, listen, you didn't know this when you signed up, but you are not allowed to use VLOOKUP or regular pivot tables ever again.
Rob Collie (00:07:45):
And I'm sorry if didn't understand that you were signing that right away when you took this class, but at least for one real business thing, tomorrow, the first day after training, whatever, you have to be applying it from the get-go. If you don't, you're going to be a repeat customer."
Chris Webb (00:08:04):
You're ruining your pipeline there. But yeah, it's interesting, the whole self-service BI thing is meant to be transformational. It's meant to be change your life, change the way you work, but it's like all these things, it's like a lot of people might hear the message, but they won't necessarily change their ways. I think the only people who use tools like Power BI, the best are the ones who find it themselves rather than the ones who were taught it.
Rob Collie (00:08:28):
Oh, yeah. We have this concept in training at our company. We have a distinction between volunteers and hostages. If you volunteered essentially to be in the training class, that's a different thing than your manager saying, "We're going to do training for the next three days and you have to be there."
Chris Webb (00:08:46):
You could always tell the people who will have to be there in a training course.
Rob Collie (00:08:49):
That's right.
Chris Webb (00:08:50):
They might be initially friendly for the first hour and then just go off and read their emails. You can try your best to entertain them and get their attention and show them something cool. What I think of something cool is not necessarily what somebody is forced to go on a training course is something cool, but they will just... It's incredibly difficult to engage somebody who's like that.
Rob Collie (00:09:10):
Well, that's another change that I made, and then ultimately we made as a company in terms of how we train, is that if we know that there's a proportion of hostages in the class and there always are. Even if it's like a public training that someone voluntarily signed up for, you know someone got dragged along. There's a volunteer and a hostage. From the beginning we say, "Look, we get it, training sucks. Sitting in a classroom sucks. We don't want to be sitting in your chair either. But here's the thing you actually should pay attention to this one. This one is going to change your life."
Rob Collie (00:09:43):
We really throw down the gauntlet. We sell out to get their attention and say, "Look, if this is the one training you pay attention to in your life, it will be the right one." Even that crew that I talked about, that I trained twice, a really funny story, like you talk about, you can tell when you're training. You can tell the person who's just not there, not paying any attention. This one woman in that first class had just been reassigned to the analyst team. She'd had a different job, they just sort of like parked her on the analyst and they didn't know what to do with her.
Rob Collie (00:10:13):
And she did the equivalent of checking her social media, you could just tell. You could almost see her pressing the Facebook Like button or whatever. She was in the back of the room, she had no interest at all in being there. But a year later when I went back, that same person, she had then been exposed to a year in the trenches of being the VLOOKUP and Pivot Analyst and now she was totally motivated. She was in the front row, she was asking the best questions.
Rob Collie (00:10:43):
Six months later, she left that company and took a full-time BI position at another company. Everything was different for her, and it was just like it's motivation. She hadn't glimpsed how awful it could be.
Chris Webb (00:10:55):
I think you saved another soul there.
Rob Collie (00:10:58):
Yeah, I did.
Chris Webb (00:10:59):
Congratulations.
Rob Collie (00:11:00):
I did. I suppose there's like a count of souls saved and souls corrupted, I don't know. I hope to be above the x-axis-
Chris Webb (00:11:07):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:11:08):
... in the final analysis.
Chris Webb (00:11:10):
And especially one more soul saved for the Microsoft party rather than potentially, if you hadn't been there, they might've gone to Tableau or something, perish the thought
Rob Collie (00:11:19):
I know. Have you seen the Bootleg Hitler video about Tableau?
Chris Webb (00:11:25):
Oh, I think I have, but I've forgotten it. Go on, tell me again.
Rob Collie (00:11:28):
You've seen the Hitler memes, right? Where he's looking at the maps-
Chris Webb (00:11:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:11:31):
... right?
Chris Webb (00:11:31):
Yes, from downfall.
Rob Collie (00:11:32):
Yeah, from downfall. Exactly. They're pointing at the map and talking about retail sales are up here, here and here. And then he goes, "That's nothing. Tell me about seasonally corrected profit margin." They're like, "Ah." Anyway, I made that, but didn't attach it to brand because Hitler, but yeah, I agree. It could have gone different way. I actually think though that it was one of those situations where she ended up taking like a business objects job. So she was out of the frying pan of Excel.
Chris Webb (00:12:07):
Well, she'll come back to Power BI, it'll just give her an even greater appreciation.
Rob Collie (00:12:11):
That's right. She's got to go experience all of the hard ways.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:14):
I wanted to ask something, because Chris, your experience predates mine. You said 1998. How'd you say it, there-
Chris Webb (00:12:22):
OLAP Services. So it would have been in the beta period for SQL Server 7. So it would have been '98, '99. I think it was late '98.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:29):
Okay. I was expecting, you were going to say Analysis Services.
Chris Webb (00:12:33):
No, no. It wasn't called Analysis Services until... I think Rob will particularly appreciate this. I think the first thing that I got annoyed about publicly about something to do with Microsoft BI was somebody renaming OLAP Services, which was a good descriptive name to Analysis Services. And they did it, they did it because they added data mining functionality. And I thought, "Nobody's going to use this. Why don't we stick to the..." It was typical of me, completely typical of me.
Chris Webb (00:13:00):
I didn't have a platform to be rude about it back then, so I got away with it. It was the first instance of my cheese being moved, so I didn't like that.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:08):
So OLAP was with SQL 7, and then it got renamed to Analysis Services when they folded in data mining. Okay. I came in really after SQL 2000 roughly. So Analysis Services have... it's always just been there. When I heard MDX, I'm like, "Is that way you really mean, Analysis Services?"
Chris Webb (00:13:27):
Yeah. People do tend to use... In fact, I saw one of my colleagues very politely smack down somebody recently saying... When they used MDX to describe Analysis Services multidimensional and it does kind of irritate me. I'm very good on using the right terms. But yes MDX is the language, Analysis Services multidimensional is the server products.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:49):
Yeah, for me, that was just something that we installed very alongside with SQL Server. Back in the day when you just installed everything, because it was just easier. No need to go back.
Rob Collie (00:13:58):
Installation ironically is my first place where I crossed paths with Analysis Services. In '98 when you were using, learning MDX and falling in love-
Chris Webb (00:14:09):
For the first time.
Rob Collie (00:14:11):
... a lifelong romance, I was the program manager on the first version of Windows Installer, the MSI technology. And I don't remember why, but there was something that we had to install, I think in office, it was this Plato thing. I remember it being a real pain in the ass. There was something about it that was controversial in terms of its install, and so I actually had to get involved and figure out how to get all of their self registration ripped out or something like that. It was probably something along.
Rob Collie (00:14:41):
It was always self-registration, that was the evil of the era. Do you have any idea, Chris why Office 2000 would have needed to install anything related to Plato?
Chris Webb (00:14:49):
Oh, Plato is the code name, Aristotle was the client that didn't get bored and it would have been because even back then, Excel 2000 could connect to OLAP Services. It was PivotTable still being able to connect to Analysis Services. In fact, earlier this week, I've got a new user group presentation, I take around the user groups showing, connecting PivotTables to Power BI, nothing changes. Skills I learned 20 years ago still being recycled. Now, we can do PivotTables in the browser in Excel online back to Power BI, but it's the same old stuff.
Chris Webb (00:15:23):
It's PivotTables connected back to some kind of OLAP technology, and people still get wowed by it. Which is great.
Rob Collie (00:15:30):
Keeping that MDX alive, right?
Chris Webb (00:15:31):
Oh yeah. Still MDX in the background.
Rob Collie (00:15:35):
The majority of MDX usage today is overwhelmingly Excel, querying, whatever-
Chris Webb (00:15:40):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:15:40):
Even a Tableau model, right?
Chris Webb (00:15:42):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:15:43):
But I didn't know that in 2000, Excel already had lit up with that first connectivity. I just knew that I had to install something.
Chris Webb (00:15:50):
Yeah, Excel 2000 was the first version, I think that... I have a feeling that maybe even Excel 97 could have done it, but no, maybe it was Excel 2000, but it's a long time ago.
Rob Collie (00:16:01):
It had to be. I'm struggling even to imagine that 2000 did, but of course, I was installing it, there had to be some Excel. Even as late as 1999, at the end of every Office release for a long time, those big long two and a half, three year monolithic releases, there would be sort of like this almost like open job fair at the end where like people could like shuffle internally from team to team. And I remember talking to a manager one time, the words came out of my mouth. This is going to make you laugh, I think.
Rob Collie (00:16:31):
I said, "So for instance, I would never go to work on something like Excel, for instance." I was very derisive about it, I would never go to work on something like Excel. And he was like, "What is wrong with you, youngster? You idiot. You need to go work on something like Excel." And I'm like, "I know better than you." And a couple of years later after a failed product and a reorg, I've found myself in Excel and I was like, "Oh, this is great."
Chris Webb (00:16:56):
I do feel like Excel has got its mojo back. They're back doing cool stuff nowadays. Apart from the cool stuff they always did with people like you, but they've got like lambda functions and things like that. There's interesting, exciting things happening in Excel.
Rob Collie (00:17:11):
Yeah. It's an edgy, sort of cutting edge tool again.
Chris Webb (00:17:15):
Yeah. That nice dark green color scheme again, after the fairly washed out years. It's got some back.
Rob Collie (00:17:20):
Yeah. The past early years, we try not to think too much about the washed out pallet. So that's crazy that Excel was already doing that, but I have this Plato thing seared into my brain for some reason. I had no idea that it was like a mirror. Didn't get to meet him there. So what were you doing at that company before they said to you, "You need to go kick the tires on this OLAP Services product"?
Chris Webb (00:17:44):
No much because it was like my first IT job and I'd spent maybe six months or something learning to be a VB6 programmer-
Rob Collie (00:17:53):
Oh, oh.
Chris Webb (00:17:53):
... and doing a bit of testing and things like that. And it was literally... As a company, it was good because they've got a long history of using every single OLAP tool ever. Had used MicroStrategy, they'd built their own kind of OLAP type engine, so they knew what they wanted. They knew what they wanted this stuff to do. And they had a whole bunch of really quite complex requirements and calculations that needed to be done, not the basic stuff, good complex things.
Chris Webb (00:18:21):
And it was the end of a long period of them evaluating a ton of other products they'd rejected. And then Nigel Pendse, if you remember Nigel Pendse. That's also a name that will separate the old people from the kids. But I think Nigel Pendse retired about 15 years ago from being the OLAP guru. He recommended using this new Microsoft technology that was in beta and it was the end of this long project. And I guess it was just like, oh, we'll give it to the graduate trainee to go away and evaluate this stuff, but actually I really enjoyed it.
Chris Webb (00:18:54):
The things I enjoyed about learning MDX are the things I still enjoy about DAX and M. It's like taking some kind of calculation logic and expressing it as a formula that works and always works. And no matter how you put your rows and columns together, it gives you the right answer, and I enjoyed that. That's when I really got into it. And I suppose there was also a factor of feeling like you're breaking new ground or learning something, because this is a technology that nobody else knew anything about.
Chris Webb (00:19:24):
And then I realized that there were newsgroups out there where people would ask questions, and I realized that actually I knew the answer to some of these questions. So I got really into answering questions on newsgroups. I suppose, that gives you a bit of feeling that you know something and you're getting somewhere and you're helping people. And I suppose that's how you fall in love with things like this. You feel like it's not just interesting, but it's something that's good professionally, good career-wise you're meeting people, you're helping people.
Chris Webb (00:19:55):
As soon as you get active on newsgroups, this is how I first met Amir and Moshe and all of these people because they were out there answering questions as well. And yeah, I felt like I was being part of something bigger, part of the community, and that really spurred me on.
Rob Collie (00:20:08):
There's something you said in there that actually made me go, "Ooh, maybe I just missed my window." Here's a confession. This isn't something that is a strength of mine. I'm going to just be clear about that. As I was thinking about it, that part of the reason why I didn't want to learn MDX was because, first, it did seem overly hard for something simple. That is an objective or more objective anyway, sort of objection that I had to it. But I think the other problem was is that on top of that, there were already a lot of people who knew it.
Rob Collie (00:20:39):
So I was judging myself against them from the get go, and as a result, like it was easier for me to sort of deny it and distance myself from it, than go through the hard work of sort of climbing that hill. Whereas with DAX, I had exactly the opposite. There was no prior expertise really in the world. It was, like you said, like this frontier, you were the first like Lewis and Clark to discover Yosemite or whatever. I think that weakness of mine didn't get activated in the DAX world. It also, I think DAX has a smoother on-ramp curve.
Rob Collie (00:21:20):
I talk about MDX as having a learning cliff that you first have to scale under machine gunfire and everything before you can get your Hello World. Whereas you can Hello World pretty easily in DAX, but maybe if MDX were brand new, maybe I would have been a bit more into it. I'll never know obviously, but.
Chris Webb (00:21:42):
I know what you mean. I will quite freely admit that it is a bit of an ego trip when you learn something and you kind of first there with a blog posts and answering the questions. And I don't know if that makes me a bad person, but I enjoyed that. And I was lucky in that I was there at the right time that somebody... There were other good people around. I distinctly remember they were a whole bunch of other people around on the forums who then disappeared.
Chris Webb (00:22:08):
I guess they went on other projects, they didn't get to use this stuff. There was a guy called George Spofford, he was the original guru with Analysis Services and MDX. He was such a lovely guy. He sort of lost a couple of years ago. He was there, he wrote the book on MDX and brought me in to write a chapter on the second edition, which was really good. But yeah, he was older than me, probably younger than I am now. But he was also incredibly clever, he came up with all kinds of amazing stuff that I had no idea about.
Chris Webb (00:22:42):
Just as a little sidetrack on this, he told me this story once even before OLAP Services. He'd worked on a BI startup and they were burning through money, but they had gone through most of the process for getting a patent on the idea of a measure. You know how software patents are crazy-
Rob Collie (00:23:00):
Yes.
Chris Webb (00:23:01):
... you get a patent on the most obvious, stupid thing. His company had almost got this patent on the idea of a measure of taking a column of data and specifying how it aggregates up. He said, they had just got to the end of their startup and it would have been another $10,000 to finish getting this patent or they could spend that $10,000 on trying to get their company going. And he said, they spent the money on the company and let the patent process laps. And he said, if they'd got that patent, they would have been stupidly rich for the rest of their lives because they could have just collected royalties from every single BI company; from Microsoft, for everybody forever and ever.
Chris Webb (00:23:42):
Can you think about how fabulously wealthy you would be if you've got such a fundamental thing like that? He was way ahead with MDX and he was always the person that I was looking up to and catching up to. And then he went and took a job with Hyperion. I never quite understood why, but... And he disappeared from the scene and it was like, "Wow, it's just me. It's me." Stacia or Varga as is now and things around, but it was like, "Wow, the field is clear." Not that I really knew how to exploit it.
Chris Webb (00:24:11):
Again, I think talking about Stacia, I think she had a much better idea of how to exploit and monetize her position than I ever did because I was just a green, 20 something kid. It's just being in the right place at the right time. And I can look back and I can see other opportunities that maybe I should have taken that I didn't. DAX is a great example. I was there right at the beginning with you, but I didn't really invest enough time with it.
Chris Webb (00:24:35):
And if you look at what Marco Russo and Alberto Ferrari have done, they were there at the same time, but they took that and they ran with it. They were clever enough to know how to monetize it. And yeah, look at the great situation they're in now.
Rob Collie (00:24:48):
I made a great and terrible error with Marco and Alberto one time. They were over here at a conference. Tom, this is your fault.
Thomas LaRock (00:24:56):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:24:56):
It was one of your conferences.
Thomas LaRock (00:24:57):
All right.
Rob Collie (00:24:57):
It was one of those past bacon conferences that you organized. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't have gone to dinner with Marco and Alberto. At the time I was still running relatively unopposed as a blogger in the DAX, Power Pivot space, and I let slip. Just not really let slip, I just was friendly, collegial conversation. I let slip my sort of average daily page views was on the blog at the time. I don't remember what it was, and I could see Marco's head just snap back and look at me and goes, "What?"
Rob Collie (00:25:37):
And over the next six months, suddenly the thing that we know of as the SQL BI web empire, it kicked into gear. It was like... So funny.
Chris Webb (00:25:50):
It's an awesome empire. Complete respect for the great job they do with the content, with the way it's presented, with the general look and feel as well. It's the thing of beauty and they deserve all the success they get, I think.
Rob Collie (00:26:04):
It reminds me of my friend that used to kick my ass at video games, sometimes like real-time strategy games. You go and watch him play in his office when he's killing you over the network, after he's already annihilated you, Age of Empires or whatever, and he's finishing off everybody else, you just walk over and watch what he's doing. He was just always kick back on... His feet up on the desk, he's got one hand on the mouse, he's not even bothering with the keyboard. And it's just like effortless.
Rob Collie (00:26:27):
They seem to hustle without ever feeling... You never interact with them and have this feeling like they're frazzled.
Chris Webb (00:26:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:35):
It's really amazing what their output is able to look like without ever being like the disheveled mess that you would expect them to be while doing it.
Rob Collie (00:26:46):
You and I then have something in common, which is that we were for a time sort of like the running unopposed in the community, far and away most prolific for a particular Microsoft BI technology. And then for various reasons, relinquished that role sort of at an inflection point in the story. I was the DAX upstart that was crazy running with it, while you're going, "Oh, come on, MDX is awesome. Why are we doing this?" But then I also stayed for a while anyway, as a blogger in the Excel world, even as Power BI desktop was coming along.
Rob Collie (00:27:24):
It doesn't really matter in the end because what really happened with me is that we turned into a company and being a blogger wasn't anywhere close to the most important thing for me to be doing. I mean, still isn't, but we were talking about this. Like the ego trip of being the sort of like one and only for a while. And then you in a way, you almost like get your way and the world wakes up to the value of the thing that you've been so keen on. And now, "Oh, now I'm not alone anymore."
Chris Webb (00:27:50):
Now, my biggest claim to fame is that I work on the same team as Guy in a Cube.
Rob Collie (00:27:54):
Right.
Chris Webb (00:27:55):
The interesting thing is my blog stats have never been higher, but in relative terms, I'm just a knee-jerked like The Beach Boys. I was big back in the day and I still do good business on my greatest hits. I still put out some nice new material as well, but I'm not relevant since. The kids have moved on to video and YouTube is going to be a thing of the past. It's all streaming as well now. It's like, as long as I still got my audience.
Rob Collie (00:28:20):
Pretty soon, we are going to be like 3D, hologram, livestreaming, projecting.
Chris Webb (00:28:25):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:28:26):
Probably not going to be my thing.
Chris Webb (00:28:29):
It's nice to feel like I still got an audience. And like I said, I think my stats are still higher than anything. It's probably because I'm blogging about something that people actually use widely rather than Analysis Services, where I think there were only about a couple of thousand people in the world, whoever used it. So it was quite feasible for me to have probably met a large percentage of them at conferences and things. Now, we're getting towards Excel type numbers, not quite Excel numbers, but the real...
Chris Webb (00:28:55):
Obviously I can't talk about it when I see the usage numbers for Power BI and how crazy they are and how crazily quickly they go up. You just realize that it's like... It's a different scale now.
Rob Collie (00:29:06):
Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:07):
Yes, sir.
Rob Collie (00:29:07):
Let me just tell you that back in 2010, Chris and I were at mortal enemies.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:12):
Completely understandable.
Rob Collie (00:29:14):
So we found ourselves on opposite sides of something that ended up being really silly, I think in hindsight. Let's just cut to the end of it first. It all ends in basically, I'm okay, you're okay. We were both right kind of situation. But when you don't have the full picture yet-
Thomas LaRock (00:29:30):
Was this by any chance, a nerd fight at an MVP Summit?
Rob Collie (00:29:33):
It was a nerd fight that played out-
Chris Webb (00:29:35):
The PASS Summit.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:36):
Oh, it's PASS? Okay.
Rob Collie (00:29:37):
It played out over and over and over again, in particular on the SSAS insider's email distribution lists.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:44):
Right. Got it.
Rob Collie (00:29:45):
The private conversations. Honestly, Chris, I don't even really remember any single specifics about this. And it wasn't just you that I was arrayed against, but let me see if I can describe it as objectively as possible in hindsight. And then you can tell me if I did describe it objectively. I had struggled with MDX and failed. I had commissioned projects at Microsoft and hired third party professional services firms to implement multidimensional Analysis Services and SSIS projects for me on football, on American football of all things.
Rob Collie (00:30:17):
So I'd had the experience of being a client of it. I had built the tools in Excel that were that kind of client of it. I'd sort of been on every side of the coin there. And then I started using Power Pivot in 2010 to repeat that project and going, "Oh my God. This isn't even an equivalent thing. This is better. It's better when I do it myself." It's not cheaper, faster, it's those things. It is those things, but it's also, I get better results.
Rob Collie (00:30:46):
So then not jump to the conclusion that everything we know about the BI industry is going to change. Every last thing.
Chris Webb (00:30:53):
I will freely admit that I was wrong and I didn't really get self-service BI. I was a typical IT department bigot, I guess. I was all for self-service when it was people building their own reports on stuff, on a cube that I already built. But I don't think I really understood enough about what business analysts were doing and how they worked to appreciate the appeal of self-service BI. And I also think, I didn't understand the commercial potential of it either.
Chris Webb (00:31:25):
Let's face it from a Microsoft point of view. We're not building beautiful technology for the sake of it. We're building technology to make money. And I think the success of Power BI in the self-service space shows what the potential of the self-service market was. I think I didn't really appreciate it, and I will be the first person to say, I was completely wrong.
Rob Collie (00:31:47):
Oh, that's-
Chris Webb (00:31:48):
There were a lot of instances like that throughout my career where I can say, I was wrong or I missed that boat, or I didn't understand. But yeah, fundamentally that was it.
Rob Collie (00:31:56):
Boy, you were a lot harder on yourself than how I was going to be. I think that I missed that there was still going to be a place for enterprise BI. It's like, let's get really nerdy, if you tried to back in the day, earlier centuries of physics, you try to model light as a wave and purely do that as like, "Oh, that is almost perfect," but there's some problems. There's some holes, there's some places where it doesn't do what we expect it to do. And then other crew is trying to model it as a particle.
Rob Collie (00:32:28):
It's not a wave, it's a particle, you idiots and they have the same sorts of problems, the opposite problems. And it's only when they do the crazy thing of going, "You know what? This thing actually does both, it behaves as wave and particle. And at different times it does different things." Until they expanded their minds, they were never going to be accurately predict anything.
Rob Collie (00:32:52):
I feel like it's one of those things, it's each one of us was seizing on a truth. And this is actually true of almost any polarized issue when you really think about it. You see this in politics, you see it everywhere. It all starts with truth, and which truth tends to resonate with you most. You cling to that. And then you end up talking past each other, because everyone's missing your point. That's how I look back on that era.
Chris Webb (00:33:17):
I think we're still trying to resolve that tension between self-service and enterprise BI. Because I agree they are both necessary, and I think maybe I felt like the pendulum had swung too far towards self-service BI. I think it was probably on your conversation with Donald Farmer a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully, it wasn't on some other podcasts, but I'm pretty sure it's only you're talking to Donald Farber-
Rob Collie (00:33:40):
Absolutely this one.
Chris Webb (00:33:41):
... when you, talking about those days and how paused development on all corporate BI and everything went into Power Pivot. And I suppose I can see now that we wouldn't be, we, the Microsoft royal we, we wouldn't be in the great commercial situation we're in now without all the investments that took place back then. But it felt really painful at the time. And especially, I think if you've invested and built yourself up.
Chris Webb (00:34:06):
And you've had those years of the ego trip and then suddenly it's like, "Oh, hold on. That great technology that I made my name on that my whole business was based on is now not being invested in and there's something else. And there is this guy, Rob Collie coming along, trying to do his thing."
Rob Collie (00:34:23):
And that guy, Rob, he's so smarmy on those emails.
Chris Webb (00:34:27):
Let's go back to the beach boys, it's like, word punk comes along or something. The Sex Pistols and my Beach Boys. Yeah, that's going to hurt.
Rob Collie (00:34:34):
I only need two cords, Chris.
Chris Webb (00:34:36):
Exactly. Exactly. Where are the complex harmonies of MDX?
Rob Collie (00:34:40):
Have you heard Dave Grohl talk about music?
Chris Webb (00:34:42):
No. Go on.
Rob Collie (00:34:44):
For your Beach Boys metaphor, I really think you should just look up a couple of quick interviews with Dave Grohl about music. He says things like he hates music reality shows like American Idol or whatever. He hates it because some of these people get up there and play their hearts out, make themselves vulnerable. And then this panel of judges tells them that they suck. That's part of the entertainment, some of them have to suck.
Rob Collie (00:35:07):
He says, "That's terrible because here's how music really works. You get together with a bunch of your friends in a garage and you suck and you're just awful. And then you turn into a nirvana." Every musician I ever talked to says, "Kurt was a terrible guitarist." On MTV Unplugged, he's famously making excuses before he even plays a song that he's going to screw it up. And then afterwards saying, "Oh, I didn't screw up." He was so insecure about it.
Rob Collie (00:35:30):
And to this day, Dave Grohl will tell you, he can't even read music. He's the guitarist and songwriter. He's transitioned from a drummer to lead guitarist and songwriter and he can't even read music. He's not trained in music at all. And so I think the punk metaphor is a really good one. And we talked about this with Lori Rodriguez about the idea in Ratatouille, the movie, that a cook can come from anywhere. They don't have to come from a pedigreed background you'd expect.
Rob Collie (00:36:00):
It turns out though that even though Dave Grohl can't read music, he's ended up in a different way, in a different language in his own head learning to do all the things that a high-end musical professional would need to do. He still has the skill, it just comes from a different background. We've had this blending of these two communities, and I think this is gorgeous. I think it is absolutely amazing that today Marco, Alberto, yourself are writing in the same language that the Excel analysts also learning to do.
Rob Collie (00:36:33):
And some of them actually turn out to be like up in that stratosphere. They get so good at it, they get way better at it than I am. I find that that lack of an explicit boundary between those two communities is just amazing. I love it.
Chris Webb (00:36:50):
That's got to a strength. There are just no barriers. If you're good, you'll get there.
Rob Collie (00:36:55):
Even if you suck, you're really good. Sucking at DAX is in ways that like I used to do this to myself. I'd look back on what I did six months ago and go, "Oh, I was so cute back then." I didn't know what I was doing, and yet that thing that I built was changing the world in really impactful ways.
Chris Webb (00:37:12):
But I think that's like one of the strengths of the whole... I don't know whether it's Microsoft as a whole. I definitely felt it in the SQL Server community. It's just a whole bunch of people who didn't go to some top college for IT. After I went to university, I did evening degree in IT, so at least I've got an IT qualification. But yeah, the number of ex musicians, the number of people from the armed forces, the number of accountants, and then did something else.
Chris Webb (00:37:38):
The number of people who've just fallen into it, it's like you said, you don't have the formal training, but you've got the experience. And sometimes that experience and the knowledge you've gained along the way actually makes you better than perhaps somebody who's just been writing code since the age of six, and has never, ever done anything else and never, ever wanted to do anything else.
Thomas LaRock (00:37:59):
If I may. Earlier, Chris, you had said a couple of things when you were talking about how you were wrong. I just do want you to understand, you weren't the only one wrong. And you did just touch upon the SQL Server community, now we'll just call the data platform community. But there were a lot of the people that did not understands the shift of what was happening. There's another part you mentioned where you said you didn't see. When you arrived and we were having your discussions, you didn't see the commercial aspect of it.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:29):
And I would tell you that it's because it wasn't evident really to anyone. I don't think anyone really saw... For me, it was business objects, crystal reports. This is what we use in our environment and that was the self-service BI dream. But they were all the same. They were cumbersome, they're difficult to work with. So you were right, enterprise BI was still going to be a thing, but what you didn't see and that Rob somehow stumbled upon was this, I don't know, 100 million people out there that if they were empowered to build themselves a Power Pivot.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:06):
And I would look at you, Chris and say, "How many times have I ever had to pivot a table using T-SQL?" I'm going to say, once for an exam like 15 years ago. And that's just awful, who would do that? When I met Rob and I learned Power Pivot and I said, "Oh my God, why are these people using T-SQL for this stuff? They should just be using Excel to do a lot of the data manipulation." And these days, I would tell you, even Python and why you're even in T-SQL, I don't know.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:33):
But once they got empowered with something like Power Pivot, they were already familiar with Excel. And you had this merging, you had that duality that Rob just talked about. All of a sudden, all these power users said, "Wait a second, bookie what I can do now." And that was the commercial aspect that apparently somebody knew existed, otherwise this stuff will never be build. But that's what took off.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:57):
And a lot of us, and even some of us had just simply believed, but there were a lot of people that were still just like, "Yeah, it's not a thing. It's just not a thing, it's not what I'm interested. I need more nerd knobs inside this database engine because of all this..." And it's just not a real thing. The fact that I had to have discussions with people about whether or not the PASS Summit should have a whole track to business intelligence. Do we really need that here? Are you kidding me?
Chris Webb (00:40:26):
I remember those years well. The feeling of being like a second-class citizen or the hate in the room when there was just too much BI in the keynote.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:34):
Yes. Oh.
Rob Collie (00:40:36):
Like, oh, the thing that the business can really strategically change it is not just keeping the lights on like basic infrastructure. The stuff that the C-suite would actually get excited about, if you could deliver something. Now, we don't want to add that. You said that I was able to see this coming and most people didn't. I actually think you had to have had exactly and specifically my career experience to have seen what I saw. It wasn't me, it was my path.
Rob Collie (00:41:03):
It comes down to, I'm so lucky that the consultant from Hitachi Consulting who knew his shit, he was good. I was so lucky that he was not from the United States and did not know anything about American Football. Because if he did, the project would have happened completely differently. But because he didn't know football, it resembled a regular BI project, where I was the stakeholder that knew everything about the business domain and had to somehow educate him on it. And we had to slowly iterate in this terrible, terrible process.
Rob Collie (00:41:35):
So I had to have been from the Excel group, I had to have had exposure to Analysis Services from a technical standpoint, from inside the company. And then I needed to be a customer of it and get lucky in that way in order for all of these wires to connect. I don't think there's really anything terribly special about me, it was just that I had had that path, that allowed me to see something. And so, of course, I was going to be talking past everyone.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:59):
And my question to both of you, let's start with Chris. I have a belief that if you need to manipulate data in some way, DAX is far more powerful for you than T-SQL would be, right? Is this fair?
Chris Webb (00:42:15):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:16):
Okay.
Chris Webb (00:42:16):
Although, I'm a big Power Query fan, so I'd say, don't forget about Power Query, as well.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:20):
That's fine. Power Query too. I'm just going to say, when it comes to the manipulation of data, T-SQL, Transact-SQL to me is a way to get data more inserted into a database that is to really work with the data. And that's fine, but my question, and now would be more to Chris because he's at Microsoft now, and less to you Rob because you're just Rob now. But-
Rob Collie (00:42:42):
Aargh, I have opinions.
Chris Webb (00:42:43):
You're still special.
Rob Collie (00:42:45):
Pick me, pick me.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:49):
Because I see it from time to time. I see the team in Redmond, they gave us like windowing functions recently. I see little things that get added slowly over time like a coffee drip, just some little bit here and there. But why don't we have a whole suite of functions to calculate end of week, end the day, end the month, all that stuff? How many Tuesdays are in a month? That's like a one-line thing in Excel.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:14):
And you can just simply say, "Done. Now, I got the number, move on." None of that exists inside of T-SQL. Is there a technical reason? Is there a business reason? Why can't we get a lot of that functionality into the database platform as is right now?
Chris Webb (00:43:30):
Well, I suppose this is the kind of perennial product design, prioritization thing that I've only really come to appreciate in the last two years since I've been, not involved with it, but at least I had a ringside seat in how it works out. And I think that's been the hard thing for me to learn. It's not all about creating a great product, it's creating a product that will sell. And they're not always the same thing, sometimes there are marketing concerns.
Chris Webb (00:43:56):
Those marketing features that annoy the kind of true techie fanboys like you and me, they serve a purpose, they sell the products. And if you don't sell a product, we don't have jobs. And there isn't an infinite resource for developing this stuff, and if you have those cool marketing features, then that's one less useful feature for the true believers. And yeah, we definitely see that with Power BI. There are things that I think get developed that are genuinely useful.
Chris Webb (00:44:24):
There are things that, at least in my mind would be super useful to have, but maybe not useful for everybody in every kind of point of view. But I still passionately believe they should be there in the product. And there are the things that are there that, well, maybe people don't always use, but get used for demos or check the box for Gartner or whoever. And that's not to say that they're useless, they are really useful. They're useful to make the product viable, to make people think wow in a demo.
Chris Webb (00:44:52):
To impress the reviewers to and the analysts to make people buy the product so they can discover the stuff like DAX, which nobody's going to get really excited about. You do a C-level presentation about DAX, you'd lose the audience in the first 30 seconds and people would say, "I'm not interested in this product," even if that is where the real power of the product goes. So it's a shame, but there are always these trade offs really.
Rob Collie (00:45:15):
Can I talk now?
Thomas LaRock (00:45:16):
Yes, we still value your opinion.
Chris Webb (00:45:17):
We don't want you to explode with these opinions that are bubbling up inside you.
Rob Collie (00:45:22):
Part of what you're asking, Tom, comes back to a debate and a misunderstanding that predates all of this technology, which is why do we need OLAP? And this is something that we talk about, every couple of years, Tom, you and I write something about this, which is T-SQL is transactional. Like Chris is saying, like prioritization of, not just of product, but even just like of base direction of a technology. A single technology can't be good at everything, you got to optimize.
Rob Collie (00:45:49):
And really SQL is fundamentally record-keeping. We used to write things down on paper, and then SQL came along and that became the way that we wrote things down. The storage and retrieval, read and write of records of various sorts is what SQL was made for. And what I call like the first use of data, the first use of data is transactional. It's record-keeping, it's making individual activities happen. Sometimes even across systems like records here, then trigger the creation of another record over there. And then next thing you know, I'm being billed by Amazon and my package arrives. That's the first use of data.
Rob Collie (00:46:30):
Second use of data when you're analyzing it, it turns out SQL is terrible at that, but the whole world needs to keep records. So there's jillion people lying around who knows SQL, something like OLAP comes along and initially it smells like it's the same thing. But then you get into it and you realize it, it's a completely different beast. Doesn't speak to the SQL crowd, most of them. And so we ended up in a situation like when I joined this story in progress in the early 2000s at Microsoft, reporting services was the dominant apex predator of Microsoft BI platform.
Rob Collie (00:47:06):
And it's just putting like an HTML transform over the top of a SQL query is all it is. It has no brain, it doesn't do anything. And like Analysis Services was the smarter sibling of that product that no one paid any attention to. It was so funny. Now, we're still to an extent live a little bit in that world today, Tableau starting to add that data model, they're starting to, the worm has turned. But they're a really, really good viewer of SQL views.
Chris Webb (00:47:39):
I had semantic layer, so definitely coming back into fashion. I saw this article on Medium a couple of months ago talking about Headless BI and I was thinking all the way through what you're describing. There was some amazing news platform that somebody had developed, and what they were describing was OLAP. And OLAP database, where you could put different client tools on top of some engine they developed. So it's not a new concept.
Rob Collie (00:48:04):
Hey, Chris, do you know how the PR industry works?
Chris Webb (00:48:08):
Yes, I know, I know, I know.
Thomas LaRock (00:48:10):
It's new to them, though.
Rob Collie (00:48:11):
For those who don't, I've the last few years glimpsed how that all operates. And it turns out that all the media outlets, they don't know what to talk about. They need stories to draw clicks to get advertising revenue and the PR industry is more than happy to feed them stories. And so for instance, the Harvard Business Review article from a few years ago that was titled something really provocative like Finance Departments Abandoning Excel. That was a PR hit job, absolutely executed, paid for on behalf of Anaplan. That's what it was.
Rob Collie (00:48:43):
It was an Anaplan ad, Anaplan's PR firm did an amazing job, an amazing job, creating all this controversy. One of my neighbors works for them and he's doing very well. That thing worked. And so this thing, Headless BI, whether it was a PR firm or whether it was just a really clever marketing department, they're trying to define a new industry term and trend that just so happens to be about their company.
Chris Webb (00:49:11):
Yeah, I felt-
Rob Collie (00:49:12):
It's not new.
Chris Webb (00:49:13):
I just get triggered by all these things, regardless. It's like every time I see somebody talking about the new Excel or the new thing, I can't help, but get triggered even though I know it's rubbish.
Rob Collie (00:49:24):
You know who else gets tired of being told about the new Excel? It's all the people who are good at Excel.
Chris Webb (00:49:28):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:49:29):
They'd been to that rodeo now. They've been sold that bill of goods so many times and it's never been that. And it's just the thing that they use to export back to Excel. After a while, that marketing message has been used too many times, but I think it's still effective. It's the thing to shoot at, it's the thing everyone uses. You've got to talk about it.
Chris Webb (00:49:47):
So long as it still gets a reaction and it still does, then they'll carry on using it.
Rob Collie (00:49:52):
So something we've run into recently, all this demand, which is a really good thing for Tableau to Power BI migrations. And if you're a Tableau shop and you drank that Kool-Aid, that bitter Kool-Aid and it became pervasive, you got a good infestation going at a corporate level. And now you're just saying, "Hello, whoa, whoa, we should really reconsider this and we should switch to Power BI." As a customer at that point, you have a relatively tremendous investment in a flat SQL, middle-tier.
Rob Collie (00:50:27):
And Power BI, one of the tenants of Power BI is don't Franken-Table. You want to keep those Fact Tables separate. It gives you a degree of flexibility that you wouldn't even imagine. You won't even know what it feels like until you've seen it. You can't even describe it to someone how much better it is. And so what we've run into as a consulting firm somewhat recently, is customers who have been told that yeah, yeah, yeah Power BI works great with the Franken-Table.
Rob Collie (00:50:57):
And then our professional advice is, "Well, yeah." And so then now the customer's confused because they're getting the right technical advice from us, which is don't Franken-Table. But then, as you mentioned earlier, you've got to sell something. They do have jillions of Franken-Tables. Do you need to rebuild your entire middle-tier in order to switch to Power BI? Have you run into this?
Chris Webb (00:51:20):
I have.
Rob Collie (00:51:21):
And are we allowed to talk about it?
Chris Webb (00:51:23):
We are allowed to talk. I will talk in a roundabout way, but let me begin the conversation by saying that one of my jobs on the CAT team is to work closely with large customers. And the large customers that I work particularly closely with has a center of excellence run by the really great guy, and he is somebody who has thought very deeply on the subject of Tableau migration. And this large customer was a big, big Tableau customer say, five years ago? And they are now coming to the end of their migration from Tableau to Power BI, which they have done pretty successfully.
Chris Webb (00:52:05):
So the things that he's learned along the way are things that we at Microsoft like to try and reuse, and promote to other customers because we get asked this question all the time, I mean, all, all the time. There is a section of the Power BI docs called the guidance docs, which is owned by the Power BI CAT team, and there is a section on migration there. A lot of that material is material that comes from him. But I'll paraphrase what he's learned.
Chris Webb (00:52:32):
Basically, if you think about Tableau migration, there are an awful lot of companies who come to Microsoft, come to partners and say, "Hey, we want a bit of this Power BI action. We want to be able to migrate everything we've got from Tableau to Power BI." Number one reason is they think it's going to save them a ton of cash, which it probably will given the relative licensing costs. And at the moment, everybody wants to save some money. So they think, "Well, how do you do it?"
Chris Webb (00:52:57):
The obvious first thing to do is go to a consultancy company who is motivated to come and do this work, to take the obvious analogy of, to a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, to a consultancy company, every project looks like a consultancy job. And they will come in and say, "Let's have a look at all of your Tableau reports and I will do a mini assessment. And then I will take a look and see how long it takes to migrate a single report. And then we'll find the number of Tableau workbooks," or whatever they call it.
Chris Webb (00:53:28):
"And then we'll multiply that time for a single report, multiply it by the number of Tableau workbooks you've got. And then we'll give you a bill." Six months later because it'll only take six months, it'll all be right and you'll have exactly what you had before with Power BI at a fraction of the cost that you were paying in Tableau. And usually what we find is that somebody has come in and slap Power BI on top of that Franken-Table, as he called it, because of course, you can get most of the way there.
Chris Webb (00:53:53):
But then the numbers don't properly add up because somebody's munched together different granularities, and then maybe the performance isn't great. And the DAX is all suddenly really complex and horrible because the data isn't modeled properly. And it's like, "Oh, well this Power BI doesn't really perform very well." And even if we get to that point, if you think about the sheer number of reports of any BI product that somebody's got, and even if you think that it would be... Well, a large company might have easily five, 6,000 Tableau workbooks or something that need migrating.
Chris Webb (00:54:28):
And even if you were saying that it took $1,000 of somebody's time, and can you imagine even doing it that cheaply to migrate a single Tableau workbook? 5,000 Tableau reports times $1,000, how much that costs. And think about the number of resources that would be required to that that no consultancy company could ever do. So there's a fixed amount of parallelism. The costs become crazy, the amount of time taken becomes crazy. The technical problems that you run into because nobody wants to remodel the data or you run into these issues.
Chris Webb (00:55:01):
And of course, a consultancy company coming and doing this job will promise, "Yes, we can do it in a fixed amount of time. And yes, you won't need to do any retraining because we can recreate everything that you had in Tableau in Power BI. And oh, no, we can't do that, oh, it's like a disaster, it's completely unusable." It falls flat. That's what we see the trap a lot of people are falling into. There is a different way because I've seen it, I've seen a customer successfully migrate that much.
Chris Webb (00:55:28):
And so the approach they took was different. No consultants here involved, I'm afraid. Maybe there's an opportunity for you to come in and-
Rob Collie (00:55:35):
Hey, that's great.
Chris Webb (00:55:35):
... and-
Rob Collie (00:55:37):
I do want to continue with the story, but I just wanted to jump in for a moment and say, "This is really like the DNA that turned into our company, is that I knew that industry." I know the business models you're talking about. I've heard vice presidents at consulting firms talk openly about like, "All we need to do is get this client pregnant." They use that word. "We get them hooked. It doesn't matter what we say up front, once they're in that it can't get out."
Rob Collie (00:56:04):
It's just so repulsive, the whole thing. In a way, the way that you just described where that industry operates, we set out to say, "Look, it can be different than that. The tools have changed now that it can be different from that." We don't know what that firm really looks like, but we're going to go find out, we're going to go build it. I saw a tweet go by recently, I think it's because of Tom following someone that I now follow someone, and then someone replied to them and said, "Remember, an umbrella salesman will never talk to you about building a roof."
Rob Collie (00:56:36):
So a customer or an organization that's able to pull this off without help, great. That's someone that we don't necessarily need to be in there helping. There's plenty of people who do need help and that's where we focus our time. And it's been a rough road discovering, defining.
Chris Webb (00:56:52):
Yeah. There are other consultancy opportunities involved here. The approach they've taken and has worked well. Obviously, it's not something that can happen in six months, it's a several-year process. But what they did is they, first of all said, "No new development on Tableau." So everything you had to happen on Power BI. They were always going to be exceptions, but that was the general rule. And then they started turning off the Tableau workbooks reports, whatever.
Chris Webb (00:57:16):
I call them reports because I don't know the great term that nobody was using. Because let's face it, all BI's got a shelf life and people build stuff that's useful for awhile and then it just... People don't use it anymore.
Rob Collie (00:57:28):
Especially, Franken-Table-powered reports. They tend to be built for a particular question to be answered. They answer that question, then the need expires, and then that report is like the SSRS reports. They just proliferate forever, but there's a very, very, very, very, very long tail of, "No, we don't look at it anymore."
Chris Webb (00:57:46):
Yeah. You look at the ones that nobody's used for 18 months, delete those. Wait for the occasional angry emails come in, they can put that back. Then look at the ones that haven't been used for a year, delete those. Look at the ones that haven't been used for six months, delete those. And then at the same time, people are beginning to use Power BI for doing things. Train people up, get people excited, get people enthusiastic, and then say, "Well, listen, we're now going to turn off the ones that nobody's used for three months, you need to go away and migrate them."
Chris Webb (00:58:16):
And it's basically been a grassroots campaign to get the business educated so that they're able to support themselves and move what they need over to Power BI. And rebuild things in a way that makes sense, that works with Power BI rather than just trying to rebuild things. Because I think that with any kind of migration from one tool to another, there is always a tendency and always a temptation for the business to take the easy, lazy way out and say, "Just give me what I had before."
Chris Webb (00:58:45):
But if the business is doing that themselves, it gives them... They're motivated to make the right choice, which is, "Let's look again at what we want and see if we can reimplement it in a different way that actually makes sense with a tool that you're using." And that's the beauty of self-service BI, if you're doing it yourself, then you can at least express yourself and do what you need, rather than have to go through that whole tedious process of explaining to somebody what you want and getting that.
Chris Webb (00:59:11):
And so as a result, after three years of that, they are about to turn off the last of their Tableau and move everybody over to Power BI.
Chris Webb (00:59:19):
If you'll, excuse me going off on a little bit of a tangent, there are two things that I've wanted to say that have been bursting inside me. First of all, to go back to the whole idea of self-service BI, an analogy I always used to use when I was doing training was self-service BI was with typing. 40, 50 years ago, if you're an important business analyst type person in the company, or anybody. If you wanted something typed, you would go to the typing pool and have somebody type it.
Chris Webb (00:59:48):
And there would be somebody there who was really good at typing, much better than you or I, could type incredibly quickly. Especially given the technology, they'd type incredibly quickly, they could spell brilliantly. They could put together a beautiful-looking professional document and then it would come back to you and you just sign your name on it, and then it would be done. And nowadays that doesn't exist, where have the typing professional's gone?
Chris Webb (01:00:12):
We're typing ourselves badly, putting together badly formatted documents in Word, just these half semi-literate emails that people send to each other with emojis and stuff. So why are we doing that? What happened to the beautiful professionals of typing? Well, it turns out it's just easier for us to type the stuff ourselves and get it out the way than actually have to go to the typing pool, dictate it to somebody. Wait for it to come back, check it as what we meant to say.
Chris Webb (01:00:37):
Correct the errors and send it back for typing again and so on. And that's the thing with self-service BI. It might not be done as elegantly, but at least the interface between your brain and what you want, there's not another person there. You can just express yourself directly, and that's so much more powerful. And that's what you see there with getting the business to take ownership.
Chris Webb (01:00:57):
And maybe the other thing that I wanted to get off my chest, and again, not to criticize Donald Farmer, but when I was listening to that podcast you did with him, something he said a little bit. He said that nobody was using Power BI because they loved it, they used it because it was the tool that was there. The implication being that maybe other BI tools like Tableau people use because they love, and Power BI is coming in because it's cheap and it's there on everybody's desktop.
Chris Webb (01:01:24):
And I would take issue with that, especially with Tableau migrations. Tableau is so great at the Kool-Aid of we're so amazing, we're so beautiful that you can't help, but think, "Is Tableau a better tool than Power BI? Do the users really want to use Power BI over Tableau?" And then you see a migration like this and somebody says to you, "Well, actually we prefer using Power BI," and it's like, "I'm a Power BI fanboy and sometimes I get a little bit surprised by that."
Chris Webb (01:01:51):
It's a wonderful, happy moment to feel that somebody is actually genuinely prefers it. Then you realize that people do prefer it because it's got different strengths. You're not dealing with some Franken-Table. You've got that modeling, you've got the power of DAX to do all of those complex things that people struggled to do in other tools. You've got Power Query thrown in so you can do your own ETL instead of having to pay extra for it.
Rob Collie (01:02:13):
I had a similar reaction when Donald said that, but because my immune system is so advanced in this area, I just turned it into a thought that I was comfortable with and assumed that that's what he meant.
Chris Webb (01:02:24):
Sorry, Donald, if you were listening, which I'm sure you are, then I don't mean it as a criticism. Take it from me, people genuinely do love Power BI.
Rob Collie (01:02:31):
So I took that sand crystal irritant and I turned it into a pearl. And again, I don't know if this was actually what he meant, this is what I turned it into. In my interactions with the Microsoft product team, it is abundantly clear to me that they're getting an tremendous amount... And this is correct, this is how they should be. I'm not criticizing them for this. They are getting a tremendous amount of their prioritization of what they need to do from their conversations with top level management at the customers like CIOs, IT directors, whatever.
Rob Collie (01:03:07):
And not nearly as much as what I would think they should be doing in terms of appealing from the bottom up. I do think that there's a little bit... It's not an either or, it's an and, and I think part of the and has been lost a little bit lately, which is that Power BI is a better tool. It has a tremendous impact on the lives of the people that we introduce to it.
Rob Collie (01:03:37):
When I see all of the Excel integration features happening these days, are ones that CIOs would have asked for and not authors. So much of my interaction with Microsoft these days, presupposes that the data models are already there. No one talks about how they come to be. Again, like you said before, you have to sell things. If you don't sell things, there's nothing. So, such a loud voice for all of the complaints.
Rob Collie (01:04:09):
I had kind of a ringside seat when many-to-many relationships became available in the product. And it was like a knee-jerk reaction to one big customer saying, "I don't understand why we can't do this, you guys are stupid. If we can't do this, we're not going to buy your product." And so next thing you know, many-to-many relationships were in the product. They were like very easy to discover, very easy to use, and everyone running around, stabbing themselves in the eye with that fork.
Rob Collie (01:04:38):
And I feel like the voice of the enthusiast and actually even more so, the voice of the enthusiast that hasn't found it yet, I wish that were a little louder.
Chris Webb (01:04:49):
Probably because I'm directly involved in collecting feedback and bringing it back. There's still an awful lot of customer feedback that's taken into account and CAT team is directly involved in collecting feedback. The thing that I have realized is that again, there are many authentic voices of the user. And let's take data visualization as a visualization and Tableau type features as a thing.
Chris Webb (01:05:17):
It's very easy for somebody who is very passionate about visualization to say, "Oh, Power BI isn't great at visualization compared to some other tool and Power BI should be spending a lot more time doing that." And that is one voice of the user. But then at the same time, when I talk to some users, they say, "Yeah, it's fine, all I want is a bar chart. I don't want them to think more complicated than that."
Chris Webb (01:05:43):
And as soon as you get into the really kind of Rolls Royce type data visualization features, inevitably you will make things more complicated by making things more powerful. And yeah, that's what we hear. Sometimes people don't like Tableau because they only want to do something really simple. And Tableau makes those things maybe too complicated and Power BI is fairly dumb. Click on a button, there's a bar chart.
Chris Webb (01:06:08):
Drag the fields into it, and it just works and it gives you a bar chart is actually better for some of those use cases. There's less of a mental tax, there's less education involved to get there. I've realized that there are multiple valid viewpoints, even from the point of view of the customer. It's difficult to listen to all of those different sources of feedback and get things, and then balance that with the need of being able to sell, being able to integrate with other products that Microsoft have a coherent story across the power platform, all of those different things.
Rob Collie (01:06:43):
I think where we both definitely agree is that it would be a shame if Power BI somehow came to be perceived just like the IT-driven edict, the tool of choice, right?
Chris Webb (01:06:57):
Yeah. The cheap option that somebody's bought because they've done a corporate-wide deal.
Rob Collie (01:07:01):
Right. Which of course is the reality of how a lot of these deals happen. This is the weird thing about how the way the world works. It's easier to sell Power BI at a corporate level on price than it is to sell it on its merits, which is that it's a fabulously superior tool. We want it both ways. We love the fact that the price point makes it easier to sell. You can't go to war negating your own advantages, you have to lean into this. And at the same time, you don't want to lose that other thing.
Rob Collie (01:07:30):
And honestly, really, for me, all this comes down to is the customer, the user at a current customer or at a customer that hasn't decided to buy in yet. The person who hasn't discovered it. That's the only thing that I care about that I think could use, and actually would pay immense dividends for Microsoft, even in their superior market position these days, is to invest a bit more into the people that we keep running into over and over and over again, who are angry that they haven't been told about this. They're out there and they still outnumber the people who have been told by a large multiple.
Chris Webb (01:08:08):
It's difficult to know how to reach those people because they've got day jobs. They're accountants, they're actuaries. They use Excel in the way that I use my car. I'm not a car fan, I use a car to get from A to B. I've got like a five, six-year-old car that's a bit beaten up and I don't really care about it. And various members of my family keep dropping hints that it's a bit embarrassing and it's time I bought myself the spiffy new car that I can afford.
Chris Webb (01:08:33):
It's just something that I use from day-to-day, and a lot of people see Excel like that and it's difficult to know how we could market them. Maybe we just need to have more big adverts on TV, or at the airport, or whatever-
Rob Collie (01:08:47):
Yes.
Chris Webb (01:08:48):
... to reach those people.
Rob Collie (01:08:49):
Anything. Anything that acknowledges that the Excel crowd and a particular segment of the Excel crowd, they're like about a five to 6% slice. That's where your authors are. That's where all of your future authors are. I think, and rightly so, like when and CIOs are your customers and you're getting a lot of feedback from them, they aren't necessarily attuned to that either. When you're talk about adoption, like driving usage even at a customer who's already bought Power BI, when you're talking about driving usage up, and adoption, and all those sorts of things, or what's the monthly active users? Is that-
Chris Webb (01:09:23):
MAU.
Rob Collie (01:09:23):
MAU.
Chris Webb (01:09:24):
It's MAU.
Rob Collie (01:09:24):
Okay.
Chris Webb (01:09:24):
That's what we talk about.
Rob Collie (01:09:25):
These are the same problems, when I'm talking about surfaces on your radar. I almost feel like it's like the movie 300. You need King Leonidas to just pick a handful of software engineers that are now safe from all other resource allocation. They're earmarked for onboarding Excel people. It wouldn't take that much, but someone somewhere has to pony that up, figure out how to either integrate the Power BI engine into Excel.
Rob Collie (01:09:55):
The equivalent of Power Pivot is on by default as the gateway drug. PivotTables are the place to introduce people to this. And you know what? Within 24 hours of introduction to it in a PivotTable concept, they're embracing Power BI visuals. It doesn't take long. They are totally cool. You've got to step it. I don't know. Again, I'm positive that's not what Donald meant, but that's what I turned it into.
Chris Webb (01:10:20):
Wow. Okay. That's definitely where the big numbers lie, if you can just tap into the billions of Excel users. That's the kind of state today I've seen Amir say this in public. He wants to get to Excel scale with Power BI. I hope that I live to see that happen in my lifetime because I think it probably is. It's a task that would take that long. We've made such a good start, it's feasible, I could believe it. Maybe I'll see it before I die.
Rob Collie (01:10:48):
I think that if it had been taken seriously at that level in like 2010, we'd already be there. You got a couple of things off your chest. I'm glad that we got to those, those were good. Is there anything that you were hoping we talk about that we haven't?
Chris Webb (01:11:02):
All right. One more thing I'll get off my chest. Maybe I'll dig it up, but somebody put a meme on Twitter. I'm not even sure where it's from. It's one of those famous memes, I think maybe makes more sense in the U.S., but I think it's those bounty hunters shouting at each other, that meme.
Rob Collie (01:11:17):
Oh, yes. I think it's the motorcycle guys.
Chris Webb (01:11:19):
Yeah, the motorcycle guys, yeah. Obviously, we didn't get the show here in the UK, we just get the meme, so a lot of the cultural context is lost. But it was those guys arguing about, "Can you fix my dashboard?" And the Power BI guy says, "It's a report." I remember being at the MVP Summit when Power BI was launched and somebody going in front of the crowd of MVPs with me and they were saying, "Oh, and we've got this thing called the dashboards, which will go alongside your report."
Chris Webb (01:11:47):
And I knew right then that this was the biggest mistake that they were going to make. And I put my hand up and I said, "No, don't call it a dashboard. Call it a pinboard, call it something else. Just don't call it a dashboard because we're going to be cursed forever with people calling dashboards reports and it's just going to lead to so much confusion," and it has, it has.
Rob Collie (01:12:08):
Yes. Microsoft can not be trusted with nouns. Seriously. It's like, you've got to get the nouns away from the people in charge of naming things. In fact, it's so bad that at one point, even back on the Excel team, I was telling... From experience, from having been a noun abuser for a while, telling my new hires on my team that they had to come to noun court with me if they wanted to put any new nouns into the product.
Rob Collie (01:12:35):
They could do verbs, they could put verbs into the product without the high court. But they wanted a noun, they were going to have to bring it because I was not going to allow that. Again, having been someone who had done nouns and done them wrong, it took me a while for me to get over that. I think it's a computer science thing. I think honestly, people who are drawn to technology are really enamored of things like the word entity.
Rob Collie (01:13:01):
If I say the word entity and you start getting a little bit excited, you start getting a little gooey inside-
Chris Webb (01:13:07):
You can see it my eyes down here.
Rob Collie (01:13:08):
... we need to keep you away from naming.
Chris Webb (01:13:10):
Yes, absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:13:13):
And I was an entity guy. I was a computer science, A prime, B prime, C prime, kind of graph theory is everything. Like, "Nope, mm-mm (negative). No, it's humans." Learn the hard way.
Chris Webb (01:13:25):
In any of the honesty, if they were building a product that was going to be used by millions and millions of users. If you're launching a new brand of soda or something, you'd have focus groups to look at the labeling, look at a whole bunch of different options for the names. Make sure it was exactly the right shade of purple that didn't put people off. Whereas in software, we just put this stuff out there without any thoughts.
Chris Webb (01:13:47):
Because of course, it's just the name, who cares about it? And if you are building for the mass, mass market, you've got to be super careful about these things.
Rob Collie (01:13:56):
Yeah. The same person like me, who'd one minute be adjudicating the rounding error problem of binary and decimal and some really obscure corner of the product is at the same time supposed to name a button? or name an entity? Again, [crosstalk 01:14:13] you and I have both used the word entity. You used entity to just describe the organization, I just used entity, we're terrible.
Chris Webb (01:14:20):
I can still remember the controversy about Power Pivot, whether add a space in it. And to be honest, I can't even remember now whether it's got a space in between Power and Pivot.
Rob Collie (01:14:29):
It does now because Power View, which we don't care about anymore. There was a PowerView that was one word that was owned by some sort of binoculars company. So Power View with a space was A-OK, and so for symmetry, we had to put a space between Power Pivot. And then PowerView, no one wants to talk about that dirty secret anymore, and so now we're stuck with the space in Power Pivot for no reason.
Chris Webb (01:14:53):
Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:14:54):
Well, Chris, this has been a blast. In a lot of ways, this show is just a professional vehicle, an excuse to catch up with people, and have fun conversations like this. I've really enjoyed this one quite a bit. I'm really happy that you were available.
Chris Webb (01:15:08):
It's a pleasure. Let's do it again sometime.
Rob Collie (01:15:10):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Evan Rhodes is one of the three Directors of Client Services here at P3 Adaptive. It is no wonder why he is one of our leaders here. There is very little that can stand in his way when it comes to excellence, he makes everyone around him better, and he wants to win by doing things the right (not only the correct, but the ethical) way.
And, to top it all off, he looks a LOT like Keanu Reeves. And he's just as cool as Keanu!
References in this episode:
Spider-Man Pointing Meme
The Balanced Scorecard
Rob's Value Above Replacement Blog
My Buddy/Kid Sister Commercial
Myrton Hanks Celebration Dance
Episode Timeline:
- 1:50 - Evan is our very own Keanu Reeves doppelganger, his role at P3 Adaptive, and his Origin Story
- 10:20 - The Balanced Scorecard, understanding the value of analysts, the iterative process and learning from failures
- 36:50 - A different breed of consultant and consultancy, Evan's personal PBI applications-Disney wait times and Fantasy Football
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Today we're completing the P3 director trifecta. We've had Ryan and Chrissy, our other two directors on the show before, and today we welcome Evan Rhodes. Evan's rise to the director position at P3 has been like a shot of caffeine for our business. And that's Evan, the human caffeine shot. And that's a low little bit of a paradox given that Evan speaks in a very measured, relaxed and matter-of-fact tone basically about everything.
Rob Collie (00:00:30):
Of course, we cover the usual. We talked about his origin story and his path to P3. And even though on multiple previous episodes, we've talked quite a bit about the new breed of consultant that's required for today's world, I think that today's conversation with Evan might give you a bit more of the texture of that than we've gotten into in previous episodes.
Rob Collie (00:00:52):
We also talk a lot about a book from the late '90s, The Balanced Scorecard, and how that idea is incredibly powerful and is really now coming into its own. Thanks to Power BI. Then near the end, the wheels really came off in a good way, talked about modeling wait times at Disney, talked about fantasy football, and along the way we acknowledged that Evan is the only P3 employee to ever be mistaken for Keanu Reeves. I hope you enjoy it. We sure did, so let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:26):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:30):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:51):
Welcome to the show. Evan Rhodes, our very own Keanu Reeves lookalike. How are you, man?
Evan Rhodes (00:01:59):
Doing great. Great to be here.
Rob Collie (00:02:01):
With COVID, your opportunities to you mistaken for Keanu have fallen off dramatically. You haven't been out jet setting.
Evan Rhodes (00:02:08):
That's true. That's true. I don't get it as often as I used to when I was out traveling the country in the world, so I'm sure it'll happen again soon.
Rob Collie (00:02:16):
Think about it. COVID is just so cruel. It's taken so many things from us. Being mistaken for Keanu, I know it's a crucial part of your life. Damn you COVID.
Evan Rhodes (00:02:26):
Absolutely. And I'm sure Keanu is upset he hasn't been mistaken for me.
Rob Collie (00:02:30):
I'm sure he gets that all the time. Gosh, I can't imagine the number of Evan Rhodes autographs he's had to sign-
Evan Rhodes (00:02:36):
I'm sure-
Rob Collie (00:02:37):
... in his-
Evan Rhodes (00:02:37):
... people have come up, "Didn't you teach me Power BI a couple years ago."
Rob Collie (00:02:42):
And he's just learned to eventually just, he just started saying yes.
Evan Rhodes (00:02:45):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:02:45):
It's it easier if he just plays along with it.
Evan Rhodes (00:02:47):
I like to believe that he picked up the book and learned some [DAC 00:02:50] so that he could answer questions.
Rob Collie (00:02:52):
He's a good spot. Imagine if we could just get a picture, we'd send him the book and just have him there like, be sitting on an airplane. Someone take a picture of him holding the book, like he's deep in thought studying it.
Evan Rhodes (00:03:01):
That would be great.
Rob Collie (00:03:02):
That would be a major coup. Well, maybe someday you'll round the corner in an airport and he'll be coming around the other corner and he'll stop and you'll look at each other and it'll be like that meme where the two Spidermen are pointing at each other.
Evan Rhodes (00:03:17):
I think I'd even know what we'd say. It'd have to be Ted meet evil Ted.
Rob Collie (00:03:21):
Something like that. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I'd forgotten about Bill and Ted too. That was pretty funny. All right, so we've had two of our three directors on the show. We are now completing the tripod. You're one of our three directors. In your own words, what is your role here at P3?
Evan Rhodes (00:03:42):
My role covers a few parts of the company. As a director of client services, lead a team of the consultants and help them, support them in their projects and all their efforts. And also work with our business development team to keep bringing on our new clients.
Rob Collie (00:03:58):
Chrissy, her alter ego is the Microsoft relationship.
Evan Rhodes (00:04:01):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
And your alter ego is business development.
Evan Rhodes (00:04:06):
Correct. As well as other special projects I get assigned.
Rob Collie (00:04:10):
Yes.
Evan Rhodes (00:04:10):
We set a bit of the all-around athlete, the decathlete, if you will.
Rob Collie (00:04:14):
That's right. Which has been a theme here on this show. We talk a lot about, life is a decathlon. Career is a decathlon. And yeah, so we have a number of decathletes. And really, you think about it actually, everyone at our company has that going on. The hybrid of someone who is good at business thinking, good at problem solving, good at communication, has a relatively high EQ. All of that plus the technical capacity to execute at a high level in a tool set like the Power platform, that is an amazing new force. And you've got to be in the 90th plus percentile in a lot of different things in order to be that kind of effective consultant for us.
Rob Collie (00:05:03):
Again, we've said this a million times on this show but in case this is your first one, if you're 90th plus percentile at a bunch of different things that are all relevant at the same time, that means your 99th percentile at the overall sport. And that's what the decathlete metaphor has come to mean on this show.
Evan Rhodes (00:05:20):
Absolutely. I think that's what makes us special, makes what we deliver to clients special, that we have these unicorn special individuals that cover all of those skills and cover them, like you said, highly. I probably wouldn't win a medal for any of those individually, but the fact that I place high on all of them, as you said, my overall points score is high.
Rob Collie (00:05:45):
You'd be bronze medalist in the biathlon, in crew and luge. It just turns out that skating, rowing and shooting at the same time is what we need to do.
Evan Rhodes (00:06:00):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:06:02):
All right, so you started here as a principal consultant. How long ago now?
Evan Rhodes (00:06:06):
Three and a half years.
Rob Collie (00:06:08):
That's a long time in this fancy modern world we've got going on here, right?
Evan Rhodes (00:06:12):
It was hard to believe that it's gone by so fast, but three and a half years ago already.
Rob Collie (00:06:18):
And again, with the velocity at which our business moves in which we execute projects, that's a really compressed fast forward. Like Kellan says, that anyone's first six months working here, you get more exposure and experience in that six months than you would typically get like in five years. So for three and a half years is a awfully long time. It's about, you might be thinking about retirement at this point.
Evan Rhodes (00:06:43):
Yeah. I think I have a few more years left on the tires.
Rob Collie (00:06:47):
Yeah, another Bill and Ted movie contract. What's your path. I know bits and pieces of this. What was your career path prior to P3? And I should have introduced you is Keanu Reeve's MBA. I should have thrown that in there for instance. So give us the bouncing path. Most people we've had on the show, most people we know actually, don't have this hyperlinear path through their career. Are you going to break that trend? Are you going to be like, "No, I called my shot, blaze the path straight across the landscape?"
Evan Rhodes (00:07:23):
Absolutely not. There's no called shot. This was a meandering path that found its way, and very lucky that it did and happy that it did. I've had lots of great experiences professionally that really prepared me to be that decathletes I think that I am. I think that's why we are decathletes, is because we didn't call our shot or take that linear path. They don't teach you how to be a decathletes in college. In fact, it's the exact opposite. They really want to teach you how to do one thing. And I think in modern day business, you can't. You have to be multi-skilled.
Rob Collie (00:07:58):
I don't think college even taught me how to breathe natural atmosphere. It's like, "No, no, it's all oxygen tanks." There's no pollen.
Evan Rhodes (00:08:09):
And I was a communications major in college, so was basically a major of, I don't know what I want to do. I think I want to go to law school, so we'll get this communications degree. Which is definitely a very far cry from data analytics, business intelligence. I took gender communication classes. I recall that as one of my classes that I took.
Rob Collie (00:08:35):
Does that make you a more effective husband?
Evan Rhodes (00:08:38):
I'd like to think so. I think you'd to ask my wife, but I'd like to think so.
Rob Collie (00:08:42):
Why do we have you on this show? Get away from the microphone.
Evan Rhodes (00:08:46):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:08:47):
We want to get to the truth.
Evan Rhodes (00:08:50):
True. So my path started in sales and business development, and business operations management. I was working for an industrial distributor selling tape and glue, sandpaper and managing a branch. They moved me down to Birmingham. They said, "You're going to move." I was young, maybe a year or two out of college, put in charge of a staff of people. Told to manage people, manage inventory, manage the finances of the branch.
Evan Rhodes (00:09:21):
I look back at it now and I can't believe that I was given that kind of responsibility at that age. But it was an absolute amazing experience. I learned a ton about myself and managing people, how to do it effectively. I learned from failing at it a bunch, as much as I did for my successes, and then decided it was time. I wanted to do something else and I needed some more in-class learning to expand what I didn't get in undergrad so decided to go back and get my MBA.
Evan Rhodes (00:09:57):
While I was doing that, I had the opportunity to intern. It was a great decision I made to intern at a local consulting firm. While I was doing that, the head consultant, the partner, I basically shadowed him for a year and a half to two years.
Rob Collie (00:10:15):
Wow.
Evan Rhodes (00:10:16):
And saw him advise and consult businesses and pick up knowledge and he would always give me books to read. And one of the books he gave me was a book, The Balanced Scorecard. He was a big believer in that concept and I still am. I love The balanced Scorecard. I would start working with him on developing these scorecards and it was all manual. Everything was manual, we were drawing them out, writing them out.
Rob Collie (00:10:42):
This is great. I don't really read business books. I'm aware of them. I'm aware of some of the ideas that are in them. But The balanced Scorecard is one that I've paid some specific attention to. That doesn't mean that I read it. It's not getting carried away. But there are chapters and pages at least in the original of that book that are like, "No, no, if you need to get out a pencil and paper and just draw a scorecard and write the numbers in." You're not prototyping with pencil and paper. They're like, "It's totally okay if you need to just write it." I'm like, "Oh my God."
Rob Collie (00:11:20):
This is an idea, The Balanced Scorecard, that was, I think in many ways before its time. The willpower and the technology wasn't there to actually execute that idea terribly efficiently. I'm cutting you off, but its out of excitement. Let's get into The balanced Scorecard.
Evan Rhodes (00:11:37):
Yeah, you are absolute right. This wasn't that long ago. This wasn't, "One of these days electricity is going to be the real deal." This was 10 years ago. Seven years ago that we were still drawing them or manually just coloring cells in to make it look like a column chart. That you just didn't have access and ready access to the data. But the concepts behind it of how to manage a business by drilling down to those few metrics that really matter and how you roll those up. You can get all the way down to departments and individual levels, it was brilliant and I loved it and I immediately took to it. But we were making them. I remember drawing them on a piece of paper and thinking, this can't be the most effective way to do this because it's going to change.
Rob Collie (00:12:28):
Who's been messing with my colored pencils? I can't find my violet colored pencil. How am I supposed to consult without my pastels. Really, it's interesting how separate these universes were, this Balanced Scorecard universe. The book originally came out like in the late '90s, I think, and from the BI world. The terminology in The balanced Scorecard is cascading. We call that drilling, drill down. The ability to filter. To look at individual regions of the company or individual product lines or whatever. They call that cascading.
Rob Collie (00:13:10):
You know then, the universe next door, where the technology being randomly wonderingly developed to eventually do these sorts of things well for you. We were calling it drilling. These two worlds just didn't even overlap. You got one world talking about drawing it with pencils. So cool.
Evan Rhodes (00:13:27):
Just shows you how big that disconnect was back then between data and IT, if you will in business. The concept of, this is a great way to manage the business. We should figure out a way to get the data to help drive it. When it started right as an article, I think even in Harvard Business Review. And it took a long time before that and the concepts of being a data-driven organization married together.
Evan Rhodes (00:13:54):
And for me, that was one of those things I started to see, was this is great. And I loved working for this consultant, but he was a pen and paper guy. He would write his notes. He would write, everything was pen and paper. Just yellow legal pads, crazy. It was all almost no computer.
Rob Collie (00:14:17):
Let's call him analog.
Evan Rhodes (00:14:18):
Analog.
Rob Collie (00:14:19):
Make him sound cooler.
Evan Rhodes (00:14:20):
A brilliant business mind, but again, I think some of it's just whether it's analog, generational. But that concept of marrying data was just foreign. Businesses didn't do it. And I think the other is, as you said, it was before it's time. There wasn't really a tool to help you do it effectively.
Rob Collie (00:14:39):
Yeah. The punchline here is that until you had Power BI, and literally I think specifically, Power BI, you really can't do this. You can't do it effectively. The metrics that matter the most to a business are inherently going to be cross silo metrics. They're not going to come from one operational system, one line of business system. Isn't going to spit out all the data that you need in order to truly manage your business. You've got to span across these silos and then you combine that together with the need to cascade, the need to drill.
Rob Collie (00:15:20):
And then crucially combine it with the need to iterate, get really specific on what these metrics are. You need to be able to move fast. You can't be waiting for some SQL engineer to occur in order to refine this metric. A couple of the most dramatically successful and impactful projects that this company executed back when it was still just me and my wife in the early 2010s were scorecards, and they were cross-silo, drillable, cascalable scorecards.
Rob Collie (00:15:54):
And I remember that the versions that went live, that actually went into production, the file names, the original file names for them, because these were still Excel Power Pivot, we didn't even have the Power BI yet. These things had version numbers like 25. V25 was V1. There's so much iteration and it happened so quickly. We went from V1 to V25 in the space of like a month and a half. A lot of sanity checking and focus grouping and all kinds of stuff. Those three things, cross-silo, drillable and, I don't know what the word is, iterable? Is that a word, iterable [crosstalk 00:16:35].
Evan Rhodes (00:16:35):
I think it is now.
Rob Collie (00:16:36):
We're going to look it up. I'm going to try it out in scrabble later. There's only one tool that checks those check boxes.
Evan Rhodes (00:16:41):
Absolutely. And you think about the time it took you to make those, do those 25 iterations, how much longer it would be if you had to draw them.
Rob Collie (00:16:49):
I'm going to say at least 50% longer.
Evan Rhodes (00:16:52):
Yeah, if you had to get out your colored pencils or whatever tool we were using.
Rob Collie (00:16:58):
Person you're interning with is like, "Listen, I thought we've been over this a million times. We cross hatch at 45 degrees when we shade our column charts."
Evan Rhodes (00:17:11):
Get out the triangle and the ruler and start crosshatching.
Rob Collie (00:17:16):
That's right.
Evan Rhodes (00:17:17):
So we fast forward, I graduate and I ended up at a continuing medical education assessment company, which just, it's like the coolest name. It sounds very smart. It was a very interesting business. What they do is to figure out how to best educate physicians. They receive money from pharmaceutical companies and hospitals to say, "We have this medication or this procedure. We want to understand, do physicians actually know how to prescribe the medication, how to treat patients."
Evan Rhodes (00:17:51):
The company would work with physicians and specialists to develop surveys and do assessments on it. And I was part project manager, part analyst. I would manage these projects and also I was doing statistical analysis, so using an SPSS and some other tools, again, to figure out how to best educate physicians. That's when I first discovered Power Pivot.
Evan Rhodes (00:18:18):
I remember, we were still using SPSS for stuff but occasionally, we'd dig into some Excel, and playing around with pivot tables. And I still remember it to the day. For me it was distinct count. I refused to believe there wasn't a way to figure it out and I kept digging and reading and searching, and then I came across Power Pivot and it opened that window and started to learn, I can do all of this other stuff as well. I can do some of this statistical analysis and Power Pivot off our data sets.
Rob Collie (00:18:51):
Yeah, the distinct count function. It should be given its own PNL at Microsoft. It's responsible for so many conversions.
Evan Rhodes (00:18:59):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:19:01):
I need a unique count of something in a pivot table. Now I go Googling.
Evan Rhodes (00:19:07):
Yeah. And then I found it and it was one of those, this absolutely amazing. This is brilliant. This is game changing. Why aren't they shouting this from the rooftops? Why is this hidden?
Rob Collie (00:19:18):
They've corrected that, haven't they? Oh wait. No, actually they haven't. It's still hidden in Excel.
Evan Rhodes (00:19:25):
That's still hidden.
Rob Collie (00:19:26):
Yeah. Power BI is getting plenty of play.
Evan Rhodes (00:19:29):
Right. That was amazing. I learned a ton. It's really, probably one of those places I really flexed the analyst muscle a bit.
Rob Collie (00:19:36):
There's so many words and terms that when people first came up with them, were exciting for about five minutes. A few different terms like business intelligence. That was a hot term at one point. And again, five minutes later, it had devolved into bureaucratic IT gridlock and it became boring. On a recent podcast with the show, we were also talking about IT, information technology. If you can allow yourself to hear that phrase again for the first time, it hinted at a very aggressive and agile and responsive world of just really smart operation.
Rob Collie (00:20:17):
But now we talk about IT as if it's like some Soviet, wait in line to get your license to go there and wait in another line for a loaf of bread, maybe. And it's like we're starting to reclaim some of these terms and recapture or capture for the first time, some of the excitement and possibility that those terms hinted at right. Like analyst, allow yourself to hear that word again for the first time. Really, we're going to analyze our business. We're going to do things.
Rob Collie (00:20:49):
The way you said, "I got to flex that analyst thing." It's like you got to put the analyst and analyst, and not what we've come to think of analysts is just a person that just crunches the Excel report and it's like no one listens to them. And the reality of a lot of analysts jobs is that dull thing, and it shouldn't be.
Evan Rhodes (00:21:05):
And it's a shame. A lot of times in organizations, they make the analyst as, well, they're smart. We don't really know what to do with them. We don't really know where to put them but we don't want to get rid of them because we like them.
Rob Collie (00:21:18):
Well, we know we need them.
Evan Rhodes (00:21:19):
Right. But we don't know for what.
Rob Collie (00:21:21):
Shit would collapse if they left. We know that. It's a really weird dichotomy.
Evan Rhodes (00:21:27):
And we're not mature enough to listen to them when they tell us what we should do based on the data.
Rob Collie (00:21:34):
Yes. That is the saddest part.
Evan Rhodes (00:21:36):
Isn't it. It's a waste of talent. But then you find organizations that do it well. And I don't think it's a coincidence that organizations that do that really well are successful. That understand that we're going to hire smart people and we're going to put them in a position to figure stuff out. Understand what's happening and help advise us on what to do. Where organizations get scared or maybe senior leadership gets scared is they think, "Well, we should always do everything the analyst tells us." And they don't see it as a tool.
Evan Rhodes (00:22:11):
It's one tool in the tool bag. Being a data-driven decision organization doesn't mean that you just do whatever, the data said turn left, so turn left. It means, well the data said turn left, let's look at some other stuff and make a decision. It's part of the decision making process.
Rob Collie (00:22:27):
It's a two-way street. If the traditional analyst's job, if it got more interaction, more engagement from the people who actually have their hands on the controls, it would give an opportunity for the analyst to become a lot more calibrated, a lot more savvy and seasoned. Because you're right, sometimes the data and the recommendation that comes from just crunching the numbers isn't properly calibrated for business savvy or whatever. And how do you get those reps if no one ever takes you seriously?
Evan Rhodes (00:23:02):
Right, you don't or you find someone that does. I've been extremely lucky that I had some phenomenal managers and leaders that I worked for, that put me in that position after I left the medical education company, it's funny there's, I guess maybe now that I'm 40, you look back and there's certain days or moments that are just seared into my memory that I'll never forget. And I'll never forget walking to a job interview at the place I was before I came to P3. I walked in, I was meeting with the CEO.
Evan Rhodes (00:23:39):
Before I got to his office, there was a giant whiteboard and they had KPIs written on the whiteboard and they were partially smudged and you could tell that they hadn't been written on in a while. And this is an amazing guy who went to West Point and was an army ranger. But also got an MBA from Duke. And he was very data-driven and he was just, he was an amazing guy. Actually, his name was Rob as well, so my last two bosses and CEOs were named Rob, so I guess it's a pattern.
Rob Collie (00:24:07):
Well, the similarities in there, I've never repelled out of a helicopter.
Evan Rhodes (00:24:13):
But I remember meeting with him and one of the things he said was, "We want you to come here and help tell us what we should do and how the business is running and how we can improve." And it was one of those amazing opportunities, is someone who wanted to do the continuous improvement, business process improvement, data-driven focus yet also business-focused, to be put in that position. And also what the CEO says.
Evan Rhodes (00:24:40):
And this is coming, it's a mandate from the top that we're going to put you in front of business people. You're going to sit in on meetings of the executive leadership in C-suite and you're going to be right there with all the top decision makers to hear and figure out what metrics we should use based on the strategy that we are employing and we're going to deploy, what metrics should we use? And that's going to be your job. I got to sit in and list and have that visibility that no one at my level was getting and very few analysts would get, which is lucky.
Rob Collie (00:25:14):
Super lucky. What a cool thing.
Evan Rhodes (00:25:16):
So cool.
Rob Collie (00:25:17):
Because again, we know that the world doesn't always make sense. It doesn't always do that. It doesn't always operate the way that we want it to. Tell me when you first walked by that whiteboard and you went in to meet with this guy for the first time, did you go, "Hey, have you considered using colored markers? We can use colors on your whiteboard. I can crosshatch."
Evan Rhodes (00:25:36):
I remember looking at it and saying to myself, within nine months, that'll be gone and there'll be a TV there, displaying reports. And it wasn't long after I'd started that I remember seeing a green button. I was exploring some stuff in the Microsoft world on my computer there and there was a green button that said Power BI preview. Before it was yellow. I remember, for at some point it was green and clicking that button and just, again, it was one of those, wow, this is going to be the thing.
Rob Collie (00:26:13):
Before they chose The DeWalt color scheme?
Evan Rhodes (00:26:16):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:26:16):
Power BI?
Evan Rhodes (00:26:17):
Yeah, it was before that. Which as a Cleveland Browns fan, I always somewhat didn't care for the Pittsburghs dealers color spectrum they used. And I remember then creating, and I'd been creating stuff in Excel for a while and amazing reports. And one time I made an Excel report for my boss and she said, "Evan, this doesn't even look like Excel." And this was-
Rob Collie (00:26:39):
High praise.
Evan Rhodes (00:26:40):
Yeah. This was flexing some of the things from a previous guest, Wayne Winston, whether it was buttons and adding the things you could do in Excel if you really knew how to get into the depths, the bowels of Excel to make it look like software. Then it was Power BI. I had used and played with the Power Viewer, which was a really good college. That was one of those perfect fails, because it validated the concept, but proved that it had to be better. Anyone who's used Power BI and Power Viewer, you saw elements of Power Viewer in Power BI. It was just better. It really was the perfect release.
Rob Collie (00:27:21):
That piece of software was one that in the end, everybody universally disowned. The Excel team backed away from it very, very quickly. The Power BI team wanted nothing to do with it. I agree with you, it was testing some concepts.
Evan Rhodes (00:27:37):
And I think those that... You knew it wasn't great, but it was one of those failures where you learned so much from the failure that the next thing you did was incredibly successful. That the failure was completely worth it. That's where the Power BI stuff started.
Rob Collie (00:27:55):
That's even true really, of the engine behind it all. The previous multidimensional analysis services product was anything but a failure. It was very success. They'd still learned a number of things along the way with that product. They learned a lot. They learned a lot of things that were important and good, that were necessary.
Rob Collie (00:28:14):
They also learned proportionally, what parts of that ecosystem were regrettable. And they had an opportunity to retrace their steps with the tabular engine that underpins Power Pivot, underpins Power BI. And oh my gosh, what an amazing editorial process. We all benefit just tremendously from that decade plus of learning that they experienced on the first rev.
Evan Rhodes (00:28:44):
I think that's the way it always ought to be. I have never made something the first time and went, perfect. Mic drop. I'm done. I don't need to go back and perfect or iterate or look at it. There's nothing I can do to improve it. I did it the first time and it was amazing. Whether that's the first time I made a brisket, or I smoked a brisket, the time I cooked something. Whatever it was, it wasn't perfect, and you learn from that.
Evan Rhodes (00:29:11):
I like to joke sometimes when we're teaching a class, the first Power BI report you make is the best, most amazing report you have ever made in your life. Three weeks later, you'll go back and look at it and go, "Wow, this is bad. I can do so much better." That was the experience. And I look at some of those first reports I made and at the time they were game changing, new ways to present information.
Rob Collie (00:29:35):
I was on that same curve for a long time. I've witnessed exactly what you said and I've said exactly the same things to classes back in the day. Your first efforts are going to be amazing. They're going to change the game completely. And you're going to realize that they sucked. And this is fine. And then you're going to up your game and you're going to go, "Now this, this is hot." A few months later, you're like, "Nope, I was so cute back then. That was the amateur hour." And it just keeps going. At no point in time does the old stuff actually become non impactful? It was always good. It's just that your powers keep growing and growing and growing. It's such a cool feeling.
Evan Rhodes (00:30:15):
Yeah, very cool feeling. I don't remember if it was nine months, whatever it was, but we did have TVs displaying Power BI reports. It was very early on in the tool, we had something wired to a dummy laptop through the wall with an HDMI. It was before enterprise gateways, so the laptop always had to be on, so that it would refresh, the models would refresh. But it was running and it had the aquarium visual.
Rob Collie (00:30:46):
You got to have the aquarium visual. What serious business can you be conducting without appropriately sized fish swimming around representing business entities?
Evan Rhodes (00:30:56):
Absolutely. And it played so nicely and I remember playing with all sorts of things, having it the pages, I could have multiple reports up on tabs and I think Google Chrome and it would rotate the tabs. So it would look like different reports and the scroll bar with an RSS feed that had sports scores or entertainment news, so I made it almost look like just a central hub of information. It was pretty proud of that.
Rob Collie (00:31:23):
Well, it's not a surprise that so many of our canonical demos that have been built at P3 have your fingerprints on them. Another thing we could have mentioned in the intro, is you're also the demo builder.
Evan Rhodes (00:31:35):
I am the demo builder. I guess that's the communications degree. Is always, even in those classes back in college and business school was how to present and communicate information creatively and intuitively, but not just for me, the slide of bullet points down the left hand side and a randomly placed picture somewhere always to me was like nails on a chalkboard.
Rob Collie (00:32:05):
We've noticed this. Your PowerPoint game is legendary.
Evan Rhodes (00:32:10):
It is. I've officially retired, I think from that. It's one of those where I've decided, the award is... It's like the Lombardi Trophy. It's just named after me at this point, the slide development at P3, so it's time to let some one else win the award.
Rob Collie (00:32:25):
Oh yeah. In other words, you're starting to come to terms with how much time it takes.
Evan Rhodes (00:32:32):
I think so. I think the PowerPoint with the scrolling Star Wars text, that was the finale.
Rob Collie (00:32:38):
That was the Magnum Opus.
Evan Rhodes (00:32:39):
That was the Magnum Opus. Yes, that was-
Rob Collie (00:32:41):
Leaving on the high note.
Evan Rhodes (00:32:42):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:32:44):
You're talking to someone who would routinely spend 30, 40 hours of work to prep a one-hour presentation for a conference that was bullet point free and all kinds of niftily animated clip art and all that kind of stuff and sometimes even hand drawn, et cetera. But for internal team meetings though, you know what you see for me these days, actually for a number of years now is black and white default template bullet points, that's it.
Evan Rhodes (00:33:10):
When I first started, I think you had, your game was still strong. As I started presenting in the team meetings, had to up my game to keep up. I've definitely spent nights before the meetings trying to select the right stick figure to demonstrate the concept.
Rob Collie (00:33:28):
And you've had the extra difficulty of not having access, direct easy access to the artist that draws the custom ones for me in other words. If we ever resume in-person in conferences, I think you'll see me come out of my semi-retirement, get back on that game. I just don't find remote conferences as a presenter. I just don't find them as energizing. I have a much harder time engaging with it than the in-person.
Evan Rhodes (00:33:53):
I agree. If we keep on this without question, nonlinear path right to P3, at the first Microsoft Business Insight Summit, before I had registered and a little bit before, I got an email from a guy who was also in Birmingham and his name was Austin. And he said, "Hey, we're both from Birmingham. We're both going to the conference. We should meet up." And that's when I met Austin Senseman.
Rob Collie (00:34:20):
What a freak show. I mean in a good way. He's that guy. He starts conversations.
Evan Rhodes (00:34:28):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:34:28):
He just walk up to you and say, "Hey."
Evan Rhodes (00:34:30):
Absolutely. And he has a gift. He has an absolute gift at it. We instantly became friends and always stayed in contact, and for a while he had said, "You should come to P3." I think at that time we were about to have our second daughter. My wife was pregnant. It was not the best time to be on the road. But about two years later, I remember sitting down with Austin and talking to him. I'd built a business intelligence, if you will, architecture, infrastructure, I'd built a team of people. You can say, I probably had teched myself out of the job. Everything was running.
Evan Rhodes (00:35:14):
And we'd hit a point where there wasn't a lot of new stuff. It was a lot of maintenance. And I remember talking to Austin and said, "Well, what do you want to do?" I said, "Well, I want to do that again at a lot of places. I don't want to maintain this. I don't want to just walk around and make sure the machines are running." Talked to my wife about it and she said, "Well, then you should just go do that. Just keep doing that at different places." And Austin said, "Well, that's what we do. So come up."
Rob Collie (00:35:43):
What an awesome thing. I've told so many people so many times that the origin story, the reason why most of our consultants end up coming to us, is one of invalidation at their previous job, the previous workplaces, the thing we were talking about. The analyst or whatever your job title is, that is not sufficiently utilized. That is not engaged appropriately. Their contributions aren't respected or valued at the proper weight.
Rob Collie (00:36:10):
And that's very, very, very unsatisfying. It becomes really completely intolerable once you become good at Power BI. Because now the gap between what you could be doing and what you are doing is just so wide. It's the matrix thing again. It's that itch you can't scratch. But this is the other version. You weren't being invalidated in your prior job. Sounds like you got all the kinds of support that you would typically want and that you would ever hope to ask for, but you did it.
Evan Rhodes (00:36:38):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:36:39):
Woohoo, you achieved the desired transformation, culturally, everything. So now what? Now there's another itch created by a positive environment. I think that's awesome. I'm now going to change that narrative that I've given so many times. There are two types of [inaudible 00:36:58] stories to be able to bring that same success, that same transformation repeatedly to organization after organization. That is just such a powerful thing.
Rob Collie (00:37:12):
It's what's been powering me for a decade plus. Not just the transformation for the organization, but also the transformation for the person slinging the tools. The, quote unquote, analysts role. The changes that it makes in their life is just intoxicating.
Evan Rhodes (00:37:25):
It is. It's an incredible experience and it was, it's funny you mentioned it. I always did feel, and we hear the story a lot, and a lot of people do. Whether it's people we work with, whether they're analysts that feel invalidated. And I always felt like I half get it. But there was always, you're right, the part that was not. I had everything I could want. It just was okay. You're in a good place. Everything you need is you've got, you don't really need me anymore.
Evan Rhodes (00:37:59):
It was almost like they, they didn't need me. It was exciting. It meant then that I had done my job, and I trained other people to continue to do it, which was also a big piece for me, was I've always believed that when thinking about managing people, the best managers make other people better. If you don't make other people better, then you're just a very good single performer. But if you make other people better, the exponential value that that provides the organization is huge.
Evan Rhodes (00:38:32):
So teaching others how to do Power BI, grabbing a marketing intern and saying he has potential and teaching him everything about the tool to the point where he took ownership of it and people across the company were using it for all sorts of things that weren't even initially what we were doing at the corporate level, showed me that it's a multifaceted but really, let me not just from a BI, Power BI technical capacity but from a leadership level as well.
Rob Collie (00:39:04):
So you basically worked yourself out of a job and some people would be like, "Yachty, now I don't have to do anything. Let's see how long I can coast here." But I really think the kind of people that would ever succeed at that in the first place are almost exactly the same people who wouldn't be satisfied just to mail it in after that. You want to go do it again. You need to feel that value. You need to feel challenged too.
Rob Collie (00:39:28):
This also underlines why our business model, one of the reasons why our business model works. If you can cue to project successfully in a short period of time, you're working your way out of a job. It's like how the traditional consulting industry would view that. Why would you do that? Why would you burn through something in a month that you could have milked it for 18 months? It's okay to work yourself out of a job. There are many others, it turns out.
Rob Collie (00:39:58):
Even within a particular organization, we do a one project for you and we do it really well, really quickly. It wasn't like what you did at your prior employer was one project. You had many projects in order to feel like you were done. So we're always auditioning for the next one. The fact that people higher to do the next one is just really testament to like, that was a really good deal. That was a really good trade. We pushed the P3 button and things went really well. Let's push that button. Let's try it again.
Evan Rhodes (00:40:27):
Yeah. We probably all bid in that story where we tell someone we're a consultant and eventually comes up, get someone on the hook, you find a way to make them dependent on you for ever. And it's just you.
Rob Collie (00:40:40):
Yuck.
Evan Rhodes (00:40:40):
Yeah, yuck. You. That's not us at all and I have to be able to sleep at night. We consider it a win when we've developed and collaborated with someone, an organization, and helped train them to the point where they are fully capable of taking ownership for their reporting and their decision making processes. It's a win for us. That's a great day. That's validation that we did a phenomenal job. They are ready now.
Evan Rhodes (00:41:10):
And you're right, it's probably that's the culmination of several projects, but however many projects that is, when they're ready, that's great. And we know because there's another organization out there that we can't wait to go help have that same experience. That's why I use that term, the shaper, all the time right in our company meetings, we love to be their shaper to help them to get to the top of the mountain.
Rob Collie (00:41:35):
And I used to be really hung up along these lines. I predicted that this would look, with our clients, that it would look a little bit differently than what it's turned out. I used to think that the way that an engagement with a client would ultimately mature and, quote unquote, end, would be with them understanding the decks as well as I did or as well as we do. And sometimes that is the case. That does happen from time to time.
Rob Collie (00:42:05):
Or at least they understand it sufficiently that they would never need us to help them again. I think even the more satisfying end game is when at least for the moment, they don't really have any needs. They're like, "We actually have exactly what we need for the first time ever to run our business efficiently." And their attention then naturally goes elsewhere. These things we're telling them, the report scorecards, whatever, are telling them all the things that they need to know.
Rob Collie (00:42:32):
And so now guess what, how do they go and actually do those things? They turn it into the action that of course is what the whole thing was about, and sometimes that leads them to different places or something like COVID happens and the status quo is completely wiped away. So they've got new needs. But I've actually really enjoyed, I think that second end game. Technology's just a means to an end. I was really obsessed with the idea that everyone was going to learn DACs to the extent that I had.
Rob Collie (00:43:03):
No, it's not realistic necessarily. We've found that there's certain brain wiring that's compatible with excellence on it that's not running around in everybody. But also even more importantly is not actually all that necessary. It's not the star. The technology isn't the star. It's the hose and the water. The water's what makes the grass grow. The hose doesn't do it.
Evan Rhodes (00:43:26):
Right. And I think that's where we're trying to hit. Is the never ending cycle of looking at reports is isn't really the end game. It's getting the report to answer the business questions to drive their action so they can just take action. They shouldn't always be tweaking and building and never actually using because then we never hit the thing that they really need. So again, that was three and a half years ago and it's been an absolute blast.
Rob Collie (00:43:59):
Well, it's been a blast for us as well. We don't really have any standard questions on this show really, but one that's halfway a standard is using Power BI for things like in one's personal life. You mentioned that you have a couple of applications for Power BI in your personal life. Can you tell us what those are?
Evan Rhodes (00:44:19):
Sure. A lot of people, maybe at P3 wouldn't have guessed or know about me, is I really love Disney World. I remember going there as a kid, but I guess with two young girls, the magic that they have, the joy that they get out of it, so being able to do that, I love it. It also for anyone's ever been, you can't just show up. There's also this piece of me that just loves the planning and organization part of it. You can almost approach it like a project. I built a Power BI model many years ago to figure out whether or not we should get the Disney meal plan when we went.
Evan Rhodes (00:45:02):
This was a bit of, well, they had some new features in Power BI, you can connect to the web. So we're going to connect all these menus at Disney World and we're going to build a model to pick what I think everyone's going to get at the restaurants that we're going to go to.
Rob Collie (00:45:15):
Wow.
Evan Rhodes (00:45:16):
And then we're going to balance the cost of that against the cost of a dining plan and balance out the offset of what should we do and which should we go with? Just incredibly nerdy on really multiple levels.
Rob Collie (00:45:32):
For those of you listening, this is what overkill sounds like.
Evan Rhodes (00:45:34):
It is what overkill sounds like. I like to balance it as well, it was work research. It was research to test if I could connect to the web and how it would work.
Rob Collie (00:45:44):
I love stuff like that. When you know deliberately that's overkill but you know you're going to be learning something along the way, that's the right kind.
Evan Rhodes (00:45:50):
Yeah. Of course there was a schedule made. I used a calendar, Custom Visual, and we had pictures loaded. But what I'm probably most proud of is that it worked. I did the analysis, it told me, don't do the Dining Plan. We didn't, we came out ahead, so it worked. We're going back in 31 days from the date of recording. And I actually now connected to live wait times at all the rides that we're going to go on, and it gives me a daily poll of ride times, so there's several.
Rob Collie (00:46:25):
Oh my God.
Evan Rhodes (00:46:25):
So I have average wait times, so I've been tracking the different wait times of the rides to help determine what we should do and built a Power BI model that tracks it, so just again, complete overkill.
Rob Collie (00:46:39):
Let's really get into this. Okay. So then you need that combined with, you need to basically extract a graph, not a chart, a graph out of Disney, where all of the nodes in the graph are the individual rides or attractions. And then the arcs, the lines between the nodes are the walk times between those. You can put a number on those arcs because it's a weighted graph. So the only graduate level course that I've ever taken was on graph theory, algorithmic graph theory, perfect graphs, whatever.
Rob Collie (00:47:11):
It was really pure brain candy. That's all it was. It had no real effective practical application in life whatsoever, but I wanted it to. I badly wanted it to. I kept walking around the world afterwards for the next like five years waiting to use graph theory. I've now completely forgotten really everything about it. I wouldn't be able to do anything in that space whatsoever if something came along.
Rob Collie (00:47:35):
But this is the traveling salesperson problem from computer science, which is notoriously difficult problem. But you've got extra wrinkles in it. You don't just have walking distances, which would be the traditional traveling salesperson problem. You've also got wait times at different times of day. There's seasonality within the day for the wait times.
Evan Rhodes (00:47:59):
Yeah. So some rides you have to hit early. Because the wait time increases where some will go down. So the first ride you go to, the decision you make there is going to impact every other decision that you would make.
Rob Collie (00:48:14):
Oh yes. You can't use a greedy algorithm here.
Evan Rhodes (00:48:17):
No.
Rob Collie (00:48:18):
If you end up at the back of the park at the beginning of the day to catch that one ride that spikes in wait time and never comes back down for the rest of the day, well, that impacts all of your future choices.
Evan Rhodes (00:48:29):
It does. And there's another hidden variable that you can't discount.
Rob Collie (00:48:33):
Go on.
Evan Rhodes (00:48:34):
And that's the fact that my youngest daughter who's five loves the little mermaid. And even though that's a generally easy ride to go on, you can't discount the fact that even if we get on it quick and do it early, she's going to want to do it multiple times.
Rob Collie (00:48:49):
So you can't even really walk past it.
Evan Rhodes (00:48:50):
Oh no, there's no walking past it, but there's a chance that we'll do it multiple times, which means that big thunder mountain backs up and gets along but she wanted to do aerial two times.
Rob Collie (00:49:03):
When and if humanity cracks the quantum computing challenge, and the traveling salesperson problem goes from essentially NP complete unsolvable to solvable, the Disney problem will remain. Now, that's what we call the hard problem now, is the Disney problem.
Evan Rhodes (00:49:22):
And would that mean everyone follows the same orderly path around the park and you just get a people mover and everyone to moves around from thing to thing and there's no more wait time, but that would ruin the magic, so to speak.
Rob Collie (00:49:38):
Does Disney still have the reserve ahead thing, where you can reserve a time on a ride? Does that still exist or do they getting rid of that?
Evan Rhodes (00:49:47):
It's on pause. They do, they don't now during the reopening. They paused it, but I'm sure it'll come back.
Rob Collie (00:49:54):
I wonder why they paused it.
Evan Rhodes (00:49:55):
I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:49:56):
Is it because they don't have sufficient data. They need to get some training data to retrain the system?
Evan Rhodes (00:50:01):
I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:50:01):
At Cedar Point, we've learned that you just get the bracelet. I don't know if they've also switched to a reserve ahead system, but if there's a fast pass concept at park, you're so pot committed to the whole concept of being at this park. The amount of time and the expense and everything, just to be there, the fixed cost. Oh my gosh, no, you can experience three times the roller coasters if you pay this ridiculous fee. It's totally worth it.
Rob Collie (00:50:30):
But then everyone should do it. It's like a TSA pre-check. I was laughing when I first got my TSA pre-check. I'm like, "Sooner or later everyone's going to have this and then they're going to have TSA pre-precheck." And guess what, there's that clear thing.
Evan Rhodes (00:50:45):
Right. Skip to the head of the pre-check line.
Rob Collie (00:50:48):
That's right. Pretty soon there's going to be... The clear line is going to be long.
Evan Rhodes (00:50:55):
Right, and the transparent clear, whatever they're going to call it.
Rob Collie (00:50:59):
When you own a fixed resource, like the checkpoint at an airport, you basically can just hold people as indefinitely at any ever increasing premium rate. Oh no, the airfare is cheap, but the fee to get through security.
Evan Rhodes (00:51:16):
Yeah, that's the expensive part and they don't even try to hide it anymore. They sell it while you're waiting in line, "Hey, you don't want to be waiting another half an hour here. Buy this and we'll get you right to the front right now."
Rob Collie (00:51:26):
Yeah, you could pay your way to the front of the line, right?
Evan Rhodes (00:51:28):
Right. It's almost predatory.
Rob Collie (00:51:32):
Keep in mind, this is a government owned and operated operation. Not clear. But the checkpoint is. And this private company, I think, is like the catfish sitting at the dam that just eats the junk coming out of the dam [inaudible 00:51:49]. Never has to go anywhere, never has to hunt for food, nothing. It just sits there and eats and becomes like 400 pound monster. That's what I feel [inaudible 00:51:57] standing there in line saying, "You can skip to the front of the line."
Evan Rhodes (00:52:01):
Some of the airlines own part of it.
Rob Collie (00:52:04):
For like a split second, that seemed reassuring to me, but not really.
Evan Rhodes (00:52:08):
I think Delta part ownership and clear. They're just hitting you on all parts.
Rob Collie (00:52:13):
Time is money. It makes sense. Even the highways in Seattle have a fast pass concept to them now. Did you know this?
Evan Rhodes (00:52:21):
Really?
Rob Collie (00:52:22):
Yeah. The price of crossing the bridge, the 520 Bridge in Seattle, is a very variable rate.
Evan Rhodes (00:52:30):
Really?
Rob Collie (00:52:31):
It varies during the day. It's just based on current demand. It just elastically fluctuates in terms of how much it costs across the bridge.
Evan Rhodes (00:52:39):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:52:40):
There's no toll boost or anything. It's all electronic, and if you cross without a transponder, they get a picture of your license plate. It's one of those things. We can talk about the TSA line, whatever. This is a state government and federally funded highway. Now, the money is going into public coffers at that point. It's so weird. There's no right answer to this.
Rob Collie (00:53:04):
Should wealth convey a time advantage on public infrastructure, but at the same time, but so you could say, no, no, no, that's not fair. That's not right. It's almost like the equivalent of wealth purchasing better legal treatment, which we all know also exists. But at the same time, something like this, maybe supply and demand should dictate it.
Evan Rhodes (00:53:27):
It's an interesting concept.
Rob Collie (00:53:28):
I can really see both sides of that. Think about Seattle is a relatively liberalized place implementing such a concept. It's eye opening. I think it's pretty interesting.
Evan Rhodes (00:53:38):
It is. I remember driving in Houston for work a couple years ago and something I'd never seen before, which was a toll exit. So they had two exits to get off the highway. One exit was a standard normal exit. The other was a paid exit, and it was a little shorter. And in Houston where traffic is just awful, I guess it has value. But I remember thinking to myself, "There's no way I would ever pay money to exit the highway if I could exit the highway for free."
Evan Rhodes (00:54:11):
And I remember commenting to some people while I was out there and they said, "Oh no, it could save you half an hour. During rush hour, getting off the normal exit, it could be half an hour or so, so the paid exit's worth it." And to me, it almost felt like entrapment. You want to get home for dinner, you got to pay to exit the road. Otherwise, you don't.
Rob Collie (00:54:34):
If being able to charge for it makes the second exit possible and overall, everything goes better as a result, then I think we can all get on board with this idea. However, if the second exit, all it's doing is dumping premium cars onto the same backed up surface street and therefore making the original line even longer, oh no. Which is exactly by the way, what happens with the fast pass concepts at theme parks? It's a dirty feeling. Cut in line in front of everyone. It's not like they've added a second roller coaster. It's not like that. There's only one roller coaster and you're taking their seats.
Evan Rhodes (00:55:18):
Yeah, and it is. It's that I'm sure everyone who's been on both sides of it, where it's, "Oh, I just walked right on. It was amazing." Then you get the others side of the feeling when you're in the regular line and you've been waiting forever in the hot sun, you've waited two hours for a minute and a half thrill, and you get to the front and this whole group comes in that fast line. And there's a train and now that train is full. And now you got to wait a whole and you're just seething that.
Rob Collie (00:55:48):
Yeah. And you've even, because you know your position in line, you've even figured out which car you're going to end up getting into in the next train. And then the fast passers come in and they take those seats.
Evan Rhodes (00:56:01):
Oh yeah. And you're just so mad and you're like, "I was going to go in the blue train. I was going to be in this seat." And you really, the worst part is if you even work it back, you did the math out and you aligned yourself in which car you were going to be in.
Rob Collie (00:56:17):
That's right. And this totally scrambles it because-
Evan Rhodes (00:56:18):
Scrambles it.
Rob Collie (00:56:20):
... five people came in the odd number. One person sat in the bench.
Evan Rhodes (00:56:26):
And invariably, not only do you not get the one you want, but you end up having to sit on the ride after the guy or person who just did a water ride. So now the seat is-
Rob Collie (00:56:37):
That's right.
Evan Rhodes (00:56:37):
... wet and you were totally trying to avoid that in the first place. And now you're going upside down but you're wet because you sat in a wet seat and you waited two and a half hours to sit in a wet seat and be mad.
Rob Collie (00:56:48):
That's right. I've lived that, for sure. To the extent that when I do get the fast pass, I'm coaching everybody, okay, do not make eye contact.
Evan Rhodes (00:57:03):
Just look down, get on the ride, don't say anything.
Rob Collie (00:57:07):
It's so brutal.
Evan Rhodes (00:57:08):
Yeah. No, cheers are clapping. Just eyes forward.
Rob Collie (00:57:13):
One time we were at Cedar Point and because now we used to live in Cleveland. One time we were at Cedar Point and someone had thrown up on the train, and so we watched them hose it down. And you know what they did then? They just launched the train with no one on it to dry it off.
Evan Rhodes (00:57:31):
Air dry.
Rob Collie (00:57:32):
We're just going to set it out there. And it comes back clean. Plus by the time it comes back around, the people who get on it, they were around the corner and they don't get to know that was the puke train.
Evan Rhodes (00:57:47):
Whenever it's like, oh no, please, you can go ahead of us.
Rob Collie (00:57:50):
It's like money laundering. The train goes away and it comes back pure.
Evan Rhodes (00:57:56):
Yeah. No Lysol wipes, no spray, no electrostatic spray. Just a little water and some air.
Rob Collie (00:58:03):
That's right. That's right. We've come to the conclusion though, that always get the fast pass.
Evan Rhodes (00:58:08):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:58:08):
Don't make eye contact. If it happens to be the day that I'm at the park, please don't get the fast pass. I want the fast pass to work. What's the second personal usage?
Evan Rhodes (00:58:21):
The other personal usage has been for the ever important, always needed and unfortunately has not paid off as fantasy football draft analysis. I've been doing fantasy football for years. I used to way back when go with my dad. There was a group of people and they would do it. This was in the '90s. This was when we were drafting like Scott Mitchell. And it was all on paper and every week the person in charge would mail out the results. And I think that person used to not have to pay because they would do all the points and tabulations.
Rob Collie (00:58:57):
Oh gosh.
Evan Rhodes (00:58:57):
They're probably going through box scores and sending out spreadsheets. So I've done it forever. At P3, we take it seriously. It's fun, but obviously as analysts, people who work with data, there's an added bonus. And unfortunately, every year I seem to lose to you in the semi-finals. I've started to develop a model to try to help with that drafting strategy. And unfortunately, what I've also come to is that's only half of it. It's still the mid-season plus the luck.
Rob Collie (00:59:34):
As a multi time champion of this also competitive league, let me bestow some wisdom.
Evan Rhodes (00:59:42):
Please.
Rob Collie (00:59:43):
This is the secret. You have to embrace the uncertainty of it all. Analysis most of the time is an attempt at certainty. And there was a time when there were certain strategies that you could apply in this game that weren't necessarily obvious, but the numbers bore them out. And those days are over. Most of that knowledge is commoditized now. Everyone has the same knowledge. I too started in the '90s, before the existence of really the industry, the fantasy football industry, and also the game, the NFL game has changed too. It's a much more dynamic game. We should link article, Luke, about value above replacement from our blog, that ultimately convinced us to go to a two quarterback, super flex format.
Evan Rhodes (01:00:31):
Which I protested greatly.
Rob Collie (01:00:34):
It's better though, isn't it? You enjoyed it.
Evan Rhodes (01:00:35):
No.
Rob Collie (01:00:36):
It's good. It's good. You want all the positions to be interesting. I'm only 500. I've only won half of the years that we've run this format. I won 100% of the years we ran the other format. We really cut my winning percentage here, Evan. You should be excited about this.
Evan Rhodes (01:00:55):
Yeah, that's true.
Rob Collie (01:00:57):
Anyway, so everything that I do, the secret, if there is one, is to understand that you just simply can't know what is going to happen in an NFL season. You just can't know. It's unknowable and it's going to be changing. There is no status quo. The status quo is worth nothing. It's going to change moment to moment, and everything I do ultimately comes back to that.
Rob Collie (01:01:20):
It's not that I have an opinion about a particular player. This player's going to be this, I've got a secret. I've got an inside line. If we took a stock metaphor, I don't know how to pick stocks. I don't analyze companies and do anything like that. This is more like the algorithmic type of trading. It's more that kind of thing. Which is different than how I played the game back in the past. But you know what? You also mentioned that other thing, luck. I mean, Jesus, I have got very lucky.
Evan Rhodes (01:01:49):
Luck definitely has something to do with it. For me it was, I remember reading an article several years ago that talked about the change in fantasy football and that you really have to change your approach to a weekly game. And one of the things I do look at is I'll go back and to analyze the league and how many points you need to score to win. It's fluctuated and ours is a high scoring league, but let's say you got to score 185 points on average to win. If you don't score that, chances are you're not going to win.
Evan Rhodes (01:02:23):
And as I start to look at a team and break on their projections and then spread that over a season, I get an idea of how many points on average would I project that I'll score in a week, and based on who I take and what else is available, will I score, if I'm building a team out and start to see that this team is not going to score 185, I more likely need to be lucky than good. And if you're projecting out and you're looking at 190, 195, on a week to week basis, you at least have a chance to win. And yes, I've never won and I keep losing in the semis but I guess I am always in the top third.
Rob Collie (01:03:04):
You're a worthy rung on the ladder that I climb every year. Something's got to get me to the top.
Evan Rhodes (01:03:10):
I am not an opponent you want to face week to week, but my teams are always consistent. I don't have those fluctuations of massive 250 point games a lot. I'm always 190 points, so I lose some and I win some. But I never seem to. So I'm actually beginning to evaluate and using a model, do I need to rethink that? How do I get there? But now you're telling me, I might as well just embrace it and throw a dart at a dart board.
Rob Collie (01:03:43):
It turns out that getting lucky is what needs to happen in order to come out on top out of 10 people who are playing the same game against you. Getting lucky, I have no control over that. What's weird though, is that if you realize, oh I have to get lucky, you change your strategy. My strategy is now built around getting lucky. That's as much I'm going to tell you.
Evan Rhodes (01:04:06):
That's interesting. Now I have to figure out how that would work.
Rob Collie (01:04:09):
We're going to drag Luke in this year too. He doesn't know this is coming, but we're going to have a good league this year. You can feel it, right?
Evan Rhodes (01:04:16):
I can.
Rob Collie (01:04:17):
There's a lot of good candidates to fill. This year isn't going to be one of those years where we've got like two people in the league that we controlled into it.
Evan Rhodes (01:04:23):
Bi weeks.
Rob Collie (01:04:24):
Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. And we have the 18-game season this year.
Evan Rhodes (01:04:28):
And did you hear, there was a whole thing about how they put a bi week at what, week 14, week 15 and it messes up fantasy football.
Rob Collie (01:04:37):
But it really doesn't. It put a bi-week into 14, week 14. But this year we'll go 15, 16, 17 for the playoffs. So who cares?
Evan Rhodes (01:04:47):
I'm looking forward to it. Maybe we'll increase the size, but no more up, I stopped managing my team. None of those. So the challenge gets better every year.
Rob Collie (01:04:59):
Luke, are you aware of the tradition that the winner must make a celebratory karaoke video?
Luke (01:05:05):
I've heard the legends of some of these videos and by the way, I was in this past year's league. That's how terrible my team was.
Evan Rhodes (01:05:14):
I was going to say, Luke was in it.
Rob Collie (01:05:16):
Oh, that's terrible. Luke, you're fired.
Evan Rhodes (01:05:22):
I know what my video is. I have been planning my victory video for three years now. I'll give you the tease. Do you remember the commercial back in the '80s for the toy, My Buddy.
Rob Collie (01:05:40):
Oh yes. I totally do. I even know the song.
Evan Rhodes (01:05:45):
I think we all do. Everyone [crosstalk 01:05:47] who's listened to this, you're going through in your mind and you're going, My Buddy and kids sister, is I'm going to do a video holding the trophy and recreating the My Buddy commercial, doing all those things with the trophy like it's my buddy.
Rob Collie (01:06:05):
That sounds awesome.
Evan Rhodes (01:06:06):
But I have to win first.
Rob Collie (01:06:07):
Well, as my team is about to high step into the end zone to defeat you this year in the playoffs, on the one yard line, maybe I'll take a knee, just so I can hear the [crosstalk 01:06:18]-
Evan Rhodes (01:06:18):
Just so you see it. We'll see.
Rob Collie (01:06:22):
Maybe I won't.
Evan Rhodes (01:06:24):
I don't think you will. I don't want you to.
Rob Collie (01:06:27):
Don't worry. It won't happen. Even if I went into the game thinking, okay yeah, I'm going to throw it, no.
Evan Rhodes (01:06:34):
As a fantasy football player, you're not a take the knee. You're a flippin and Cartwheel into the end zone-
Rob Collie (01:06:40):
That's right.
Evan Rhodes (01:06:40):
... type of player.
Rob Collie (01:06:41):
If I could, I would do the Merton Hanks head Bob after... The best football celebration dance ever is Merton Hanks' chicken dance, fight me. He's an executive now somewhere. I forget, you wouldn't expect it based on all that chicken dance. Did he have any brain cells left after? That's the traumatic, what he used to do. All right, hey Evan, thank you so much.
Evan Rhodes (01:07:13):
Thank you. This was fun.
Announcer (01:07:15):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let at the experts at P3 Adaptive, help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Derek Rickard has a super cool title, he's the Chief Data Officer at Emergency Reporting-their software simplifies Fire & EMS reporting and records management, making a positive difference for first responders everywhere. He's one of the very first people to discover the gamechanger that is PowerPivot back in the day, and it reshaped his entire career. He, like so many other data people, has a want to help others and his story will very likely resonate with a lot of you! References in this episode: Rob's 3 Part Opus on the Relationship Between Power BI and Paginated Reports * Part 1 * Part 2 * Part 3
The Story of the Dread Pirate Roberts Dr. Wayne Winston on Raw Data P3 Adaptive President and COO Kellen Danielson on Raw Data Episode Timeline: * 2:55 - Derek's Origin story is founded in Excel and is quite similar to Rob's, and maybe some of you! * 17:40 - A little insight on how Emergency Reporting works with Power BI Embedded, and a debate about in house analytics engine building * 44:10 - Power BI's self-service capabilities and Emergency Reporting, ER a slam-dunk for a case study for MS, Chief Data Officer is quite the title and job description
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today's guest is Derek Rickard, chief data officer at Emergency Reporting. In the ever-expanding universe of CXO titles, chief data officer is got to be one of the sexiest. And this does mark the first time that we've had someone on the show with that title, but I'm positive it will not be the last. One of the things that I find tremendously validating about Derek's journey to CDO is that his arc is very similar to the arc of many people listening to this. He comes from a pretty standard, original starting point, which is business, data analyst type work, but he was also one of the first few people, literally, to discover Power Pivot back in 2010.
Rob Collie (00:00:44):
And at the very same time that I was kicking the tires and learning my way around DAX and data modeling and the VertiPaq engine, he was doing the exact same thing. And also like me, in the very early going, he was finding immense success with it solving real business problems. Our parallel paths crossed when I was chief technology officer at a company called Pivotstream, where among other things, we launched the world's first cloud-hosted Power Pivot web service. So if you happen to think that the Power BI service of today is the world's first cloud service for publishing and sharing DAX-based reports, think again. We were first in 2010.
Rob Collie (00:01:25):
First, of course, is not best, and I'm very glad to be out of that business, but it was fun for a little while. And Derek and the company he represented at the time, well, Derek was one of the first customers of that service. He's done a number of different things since then, including going solo as a freelance consultant. He's survived the evaporation of the company that he worked for at one point in time. And now, as I mentioned, he's chief data officer of a very interesting company.
Rob Collie (00:01:48):
And we dive a lot into Power BI Embedded in this conversation, because throughout all of that, Derek has never once left the Power BI related ecosystem. His new company's adoption of Power BI Embedded, I think, is an incredibly wise decision. It's also an amazing case study. And we get into a very interesting conversation about the build versus buy decision that any line of business software company has to make when it comes to analytics these days. It was a really manic conversation, but I think it was also chock full of a lot of interesting information and insights. I hope you feel the same way. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:27):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:02:31):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your cohost Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3Adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:55):
Welcome to the show, Derek Rickard. How are you, sir?
Derek Rickard (00:02:59):
I'm good. Do you want to do it with the right pronunciation or is it okay to do Rickard?
Rob Collie (00:03:03):
Oh no, let's do it. Let's do it. What's the right pronunciation?
Derek Rickard (00:03:06):
It's Rickard. But honestly, I've been hearing the wrong pronunciation my whole life.
Rob Collie (00:03:09):
Well, it sounds like Jean-Luc Ricard.
Derek Rickard (00:03:12):
I know it's very French sounding, but it's really more English.
Rob Collie (00:03:15):
It's Rickard?
Derek Rickard (00:03:15):
Yeah, Rickard.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:16):
Rob, just do it without screwing it up this time.
Derek Rickard (00:03:18):
It's always the thing, because it comes up so often with the last name. It's not overly complex, but it is something that's really difficult to understand how it's pronounced. I don't understand why.
Rob Collie (00:03:29):
Well, you've kind of hit the jackpot there because it's one of those last names that sounds awesome either way. Tom here has really hit the jackpot.
Derek Rickard (00:03:37):
Yeah, he did.
Rob Collie (00:03:38):
LaRock.
Derek Rickard (00:03:39):
That is a jackpot there.
Rob Collie (00:03:40):
Yeah. The only thing better would be LeCool or something?
Thomas LaRock (00:03:45):
LaRock is actually the shortened version of the name.
Derek Rickard (00:03:47):
What's the long version. Is it even cooler?
Thomas LaRock (00:03:49):
It is.
Derek Rickard (00:03:50):
Okay. All right. I'm listening.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:53):
The slightly longer one would have been [inaudible 00:03:55], but it's even longer than that. It's Couille [inaudible 00:03:58] and another word in there. Anyway, Couille, if you don't know, has evolved over the centuries to be a slang word in some languages for basically balls.
Rob Collie (00:04:08):
Oh, nice.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:09):
So Balls of Brown Stone was my original name, which is just now LaRock.
Rob Collie (00:04:15):
Balls of Brown Stone.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:17):
Balls of Brown Stone.
Derek Rickard (00:04:18):
But I don't know if that makes it... Well, it is cooler.
Rob Collie (00:04:20):
Do you know who, Thomas?
Derek Rickard (00:04:22):
Yeah-
Thomas LaRock (00:04:22):
Have we talked?
Derek Rickard (00:04:22):
... but we haven't met before. You've got a blog where you actually post things, which is cool, as does P3. I don't have a blog where I post things. I did post something recently, but no. So I do, I have read your work, Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:34):
You're the one. All right.
Derek Rickard (00:04:36):
Yep. I'm the one. I didn't know until our emails were going around that your email is @SolarWinds. So I'm like, "I maybe have never heard of that before. A little bit ago, I don't know what happened."
Thomas LaRock (00:04:46):
Yeah. See, that's what actually I've been saying that in various ways. I'll say, "Hey, I work for SolarWinds. You may have heard of us recently."
Derek Rickard (00:04:55):
"We're pretty popular."
Rob Collie (00:04:56):
"I work for a newsworthy organization."
Thomas LaRock (00:04:59):
I keep saying how you can't buy this kind of publicity,
Rob Collie (00:05:03):
"I work for the highest profile organization in the monitoring space."
Derek Rickard (00:05:08):
There it is.
Thomas LaRock (00:05:09):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:05:11):
Prove me wrong.
Derek Rickard (00:05:12):
Highly profiled.
Rob Collie (00:05:14):
Derek. If I had reached out to you and said, "Hey, let's get on the phone and just talk about whatever we want for an hour or two." The only proper response would be, "I don't have time for that."
Derek Rickard (00:05:25):
But I would want to. That's fine.
Rob Collie (00:05:26):
You'd want to, but we wouldn't allow ourselves that.
Derek Rickard (00:05:28):
We've done it.
Rob Collie (00:05:28):
But then you see, how this works is, I said, "No, let's record a podcast."
Derek Rickard (00:05:31):
Oh, I see. Yeah, that makes sense.
Rob Collie (00:05:33):
And now it's legit. It's like money laundering, this is now clean.
Derek Rickard (00:05:37):
Do you have a lot of listeners?
Rob Collie (00:05:39):
Oh my God. Just so many, like Legion. You're the last one to know about the show. I don't know how to tell you this, but like everyone else was in on this.
Derek Rickard (00:05:48):
Everyone else already knew. Yeah, it was news to me that you had a podcast. But that's not me, I've been so busy with my own stuff that I haven't been paying attention to anything. There's a pandemic happening right now, and that's something that I came into a little late. No, I'm just kidding, I didn't. I did notice that one.
Rob Collie (00:06:04):
Yeah. It was like, "Oh my God, I stuck my head up and like, what's this COVID thing?"
Thomas LaRock (00:06:08):
COVID, I thought he was talking about the 5G pandemic.
Rob Collie (00:06:10):
Oh, that too, of course.
Derek Rickard (00:06:12):
Multidemic.
Rob Collie (00:06:13):
Derek is someone that I've seen in-person maybe twice in my life, maybe three times. We have not interacted a lot. It's not like we've spent long periods of time with one another. However, Derek, you are one to leave an impression.
Derek Rickard (00:06:26):
I don't know how, but yes. Okay.
Rob Collie (00:06:28):
Your name comes up and I just start smiling.
Derek Rickard (00:06:30):
All right. Well, that's nice. That's a good feeling.
Rob Collie (00:06:33):
We'd hang out, conference here, conference there. And every time we'd hang out, we'd just just be laughing nonstop and really enjoying the-
Derek Rickard (00:06:40):
Yeah, we're both funny.
Rob Collie (00:06:41):
I think I'm funny, but-
Derek Rickard (00:06:43):
No, we're both funny.
Rob Collie (00:06:44):
We're both funny. I appreciate that. But in your presence, I'm like, "Okay, I need to hang with this guy." Apparently I was under the erroneous impression that you neither drink nor swear.
Derek Rickard (00:06:52):
That's just not a true statement. I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:06:53):
No, it was a true statement that I was under the impression.
Derek Rickard (00:06:56):
Oh yeah. That's true. Yeah, it's your feelings, bro.
Rob Collie (00:06:58):
Yeah. I can't be wrong, don't invalidate me.
Derek Rickard (00:07:01):
I'll validate you. I'll validate you. You're right to feel that.
Rob Collie (00:07:04):
So how did we meet? Why have we met? You were one of the OG Power Pivot professionals.
Derek Rickard (00:07:10):
Yeah, that makes sense. So the origin story of how I got into Power Pivot was, I was working for a small manufacturing company and I was an analyst there and I did lots of fun stuff with Access and Excel and Crystal Reports and email. So I used whatever tools are available to come up with something, and I really enjoyed doing that, but I wasn't entirely happy with how it was doing that there. It wasn't fulfilling. So I went to work for the university here in Bellingham. And that was really fun, but holy cow, the workload shifted way down. I went from cool being like agile, not in the agile way, but agile and like adapting to things and coming up with cool solutions, to, "Wow, there's nothing to do. There's nothing to do here."
Derek Rickard (00:07:55):
So during that time, I just decided, "Okay, I'll just learn some new tools. Let's see what else is going on in Excel." I was already pretty good at Excel, but that's where I came across Power Pivot. And I saw the site that Microsoft had up for a little bit. This was 2010. I got it loaded and I started playing with the data at the Capitol budget office at Western. And that was really cool because a lot of the reports that they had at that point generated from Access databases, I was like, "They're all right here, interactive. You can just, boom, done. Oh, want to refresh? Click the button."
Derek Rickard (00:08:23):
That was also the first time anyone in that department had actually connected to the data source rather than just having an export that they then did their thing. Anyway, that's how I cut my teeth on like, "Oh, this is what Power Pivot is, this is how I can use it." And I had a lot of time during the last half of 2010 to play with it. And at the same time, the company I was working for, which is called the Homax group, which Rob, you may be familiar with the name. You may have heard of us.
Derek Rickard (00:08:46):
They were still struggling with the duct tape and bailing wire infrastructure that I had set up for commission reporting, inventory, whatever else was going on. So they reached out to me and they said, "Can you help us? We've got a guy here who's your replacement, but we really need some training with him. Can you help us on the side?" I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So I did that, and then I was also like, "Hey, you know what? You know you want to be really cool here? Is Power Pivot. That would be awesome here." And I showed them, "Hey, this would be great here at the Homax group because you guys have so many systems that we can all mash together. It can hold lots and lots of data," because we were constantly running into, at that point, they hadn't gone to 2010, so this is a whole thing to get Excel 2010 in there too.
Derek Rickard (00:09:24):
But they were running into the 64,000 row cap or whatever that was all the time. So I was like, "You guys need this here. You need to upgrade your Excel and then I'll show you what it can do." And I did, and they were super excited. And they actually offered me a great position to come back and have some autonomy to do my thing and also bring in the tools that I'd like to use. So that's what I did. And we created some great reporting. And then the very next thing was to share it. So we were like, "Okay, we've got to find a way to get this on a platform that we can share."
Derek Rickard (00:09:53):
So we found through the blog that I had been reading about how to use Power Pivot, how to use whatever tricks you had at that time, Rob, it was like, "Oh, we have this company called Pstream.
Rob Collie (00:10:03):
That's right.
Derek Rickard (00:10:06):
That's what it's called for short.
Rob Collie (00:10:07):
Yeah. We'll call it Pstream. That's good.
Derek Rickard (00:10:09):
It's Pstream. They were like the first cloud hosting Excel workbook, like site. Is that accurate?
Rob Collie (00:10:15):
That's right. And I don't know how it never occurred to me that that name was Pstream.
Derek Rickard (00:10:19):
Oh, that's an accounting term, my man, because they couldn't fit Pivot Stream and the whole thing as the account ID. They had to limit the characters, so it was Pstream.
Rob Collie (00:10:27):
Oh my God, we were Pstream.
Derek Rickard (00:10:29):
Yeah, that's you guys, Pstream. So Pstream was the platform to host these Excel reports that we created. And man, it was awesome because people loved it. But we were running into problems.
Thomas LaRock (00:10:38):
Problems with your Pstream?
Derek Rickard (00:10:39):
They were Pstream problems. We had a LaRock blocking the Pstream. No, Tom was not there.
Rob Collie (00:10:43):
Oh my God. This is really ironic. Considering that our tagline was You're in Good Hands with Pstream. You're in Good Hands
Derek Rickard (00:10:52):
Yes, you're in good hands. I got you. See, we're funny, guys.
Rob Collie (00:10:56):
So funny. Oh my God.
Derek Rickard (00:10:58):
Anyway, we had problems with... It wasn't problems with Pstream, it was actually a problems with... I was like, "There's got to be a way to do these things." Many-to-many, actually, was the issue. It was a many-to-many relationship. And I said, "Hey, with Pstream, we might be able to talk to this guy who writes this blog. He used to work at Microsoft, so that's legit." And he's like, "Okay, let's arrange to have some time." And I think maybe the workbook was sent your way, Rob. I don't know. But eventually, you reached out and we had a conversation. I think your perspective is better on that, but I'll let you take it from that point.
Rob Collie (00:11:30):
Honestly, I feel like my actual relationship with you begins-
Derek Rickard (00:11:35):
He doesn't remember any of that, by the way.
Rob Collie (00:11:37):
That's right. But it begins when we get face to face in a hallway outside of a session at some conference later. Now, I did remember you guys by name and all of that. That's when, to me, I put the faces and the personalities on the other end of that email or that conversation. That's when I'm like, "This is awesome. These guys... " You and Jason, right?
Derek Rickard (00:11:56):
Yep, Jason. Jason Presley, who ended up working for Pstream.
Rob Collie (00:11:58):
Who ended up working for Pstream. That's correct. What's really funny to me about that story is, you start at the beginning saying that you had left Homax and had gone to Western Washington, and I'm thinking to myself, "That's not right. That is not what happened."
Derek Rickard (00:12:12):
He is lying.
Rob Collie (00:12:12):
when I met you, you were at Homax.
Derek Rickard (00:12:14):
Yeah, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:12:15):
Then when the story turned to you going back to Homax, I'm like, "Okay, now I get it."
Derek Rickard (00:12:18):
And that's it boring detail of the story, but it's really important because there's so much learning curve to do that. And I just wanted to validate others, if anyone struggles with that learning curve, to say, I had a lot of time when the features weren't as much either, when the features were more limited. So we were like, "Okay, we're getting used to this DAX language and how to structure multiple tables."
Rob Collie (00:12:37):
That's my story as well. In early 2010, I didn't have a lot to do-
Derek Rickard (00:12:42):
But you're at Microsoft, right? Or no?
Rob Collie (00:12:43):
I was at Microsoft still, but I had already moved to the Midwest and I was transitioning. I knew I wasn't going to be able to continue to be a program manager on the engineering team, because back then, remote work, wasn't really a thing, especially for that position. So as the transitional thing, I was blogging about Power Pivot. To blog about Power Pivot, you actually had to learn how to use it. So really, like the classic line and the spy movies, "We're not that different you and I." Like in 2010, I also didn't have a whole lot to do other than screw around and kick the tires and put Power Pivot through its paces-
Derek Rickard (00:13:19):
Yeah, that was fun.
Rob Collie (00:13:19):
... and make mistakes that no one would typically know that I made. Every now and then, I would write about the mistake and not know it was a mistake and people would have to try to reproduce it on their end and go, "Hey, this isn't working." So yeah, that freedom back in that year, just the free time to explore this new domain, I agree, it was crucial to you, it was also crucial to me.
Derek Rickard (00:13:42):
That was a good times, 2010. 2010, also the year the iPad dropped, super important.
Rob Collie (00:13:48):
Is it?
Derek Rickard (00:13:48):
Yeah, that is super important because you went from two years later, people are like, "How come I'm looking at an Excel spreadsheet that doesn't render well on this Pstream. Look at my iPad, look at it. Shouldn't it be better than this?"
Rob Collie (00:13:59):
Yeah. Excel services rendered through SharePoint, turns out to not be so great on those original-
Derek Rickard (00:14:06):
iPads.
Rob Collie (00:14:08):
Thankfully, things have moved forward since then. All right. So then at some point, you go solo, don't you?
Derek Rickard (00:14:15):
Yeah. So basically, Homax's gig was to like buy brands because they're a consumer packaged goods company, so they would buy brands. Probably the most popular brand is Goo Gone, which has that orange stuff. So they bought Goo Gone. Black Flag was another one that had, which kills the lots of bugs. Homax was a brand which has spray texture and that kind of stuff. Anyway, they would buy these brands, they would acquire the brands and bring them into their umbrella. They're owned by a private equity firm. And so eventually, they got to a point where they needed to sell and a lot of the data efforts that I was putting into the company to help them operationally would also be used for chunking off the company to sell bits off to other folks. So Magic and Gugan were sold off.
Derek Rickard (00:14:54):
And eventually, we sold the rest of the company, there was nothing left to sell. So the last thing I helped them do is their transaction with PPG, which is a company in Pittsburgh. And after that, I was done. Actually, there was a, "Hey, we don't need your whole team anymore." It was me and Jason and a couple other folks. And he's like, "We don't need your whole team anymore, we'll just need you for the next like year." And I was like, "How about I just leave and you keep Jason around for a bit? Because I've been doing the side hustle for awhile and I'd love to just go into that more."
Derek Rickard (00:15:23):
So that's where we landed and it was cool because we had that agreement. They hung out as a client of mine for a little bit afterwards while they were transitioning to their mothership. That's why I went solo. The thing is, I feel very lucky because a lot of people have to take a dive, they have to like jump in and risk. I had none of that because I'd already started work with sister companies at that private equity firm, so there were already a client of mine. Another person that used to work at Homax who went off to work for this communications company. She hit me up shortly before Homax sold and she said, "Hey, can you help us out with some stuff?" So they became a client of mine.
Derek Rickard (00:15:57):
And that just lifted me off to not really take much of a risk at all. All it was was a relief to those clients that I had more time for them. So that was cool.
Rob Collie (00:16:05):
Yeah. That is a more gentle transition into the-
Derek Rickard (00:16:08):
Very gentle.
Rob Collie (00:16:09):
... freelancer role than is typical.
Derek Rickard (00:16:11):
Yeah, it was nice.
Rob Collie (00:16:12):
So Homax became Nomax.
Derek Rickard (00:16:16):
Nomax. The brand still around, but it's owned by PPG.
Rob Collie (00:16:19):
Yeah. It's just the endless game of consolidation and shuffling. So you went solo.
Derek Rickard (00:16:26):
Went solo, Source to Share.
Rob Collie (00:16:27):
Source to Share.
Derek Rickard (00:16:28):
July of '14, I think
Rob Collie (00:16:30):
July of '14. So is that still what you're doing today?
Derek Rickard (00:16:33):
Source to Share still operates, I don't do that anymore. As of January 4th, I took the chief data officer position at Emergency Reporting. It doesn't matter if you've heard of Emergency Reporting yet. It's basically a records management software for the fire industry. So they do lots of fun stuff there.
Rob Collie (00:16:54):
The fire industry. Go on.
Derek Rickard (00:16:55):
Yeah, yeah. Not like we're starting fires, but for firefighters, for fire departments. They have an EMS software as well. Basically, you have people going out and saving lives and property, and then they come back and they're like, "Oh, I got to write up all this crap. I got to write it all because it's all these things that the government wants to know and all these things that I have to file." And no one would want to do that manually, which there are still plenty of places that do that. So they have record management software. So there are different flavors of that for different industries. And for the fire industry, they have Emergency Reporting and several other competitors, which I could name them if I knew them.
Rob Collie (00:17:32):
So Emergency Reporting isn't about that report that you grab an analyst at four o'clock on a Friday and say, "Oh my God, we need to have this by Monday."
Derek Rickard (00:17:42):
That'd be a good name for a consultancy group that works well under fire, but that's not what it is.
Rob Collie (00:17:48):
Yeah. Like, "If you've waited too long, call us." It's actually reporting about emergencies.
Derek Rickard (00:17:54):
Yeah. It's emergency reporting. Yeah. Yes, that's correct. Nailed it.
Rob Collie (00:17:58):
When you described it as the fire industry, I did wonder.
Derek Rickard (00:18:02):
Sorry, fire prevention.
Rob Collie (00:18:03):
Most industries that you name, their job is to create those things.
Derek Rickard (00:18:08):
Yeah, right, create the fires.
Rob Collie (00:18:09):
Which reminds me of the fire department in Roxanne. Steve Martin, remember that?
Derek Rickard (00:18:15):
Oh yeah. Steve Martin.
Rob Collie (00:18:16):
The fire department's a bunch of pyros. It's like, "Guys, we can't have people when there's a fire saying whatever you do, don't call the fire department."
Derek Rickard (00:18:26):
Cannot do it.
Rob Collie (00:18:28):
So chief data officer. Holy cow, that is a hell of a job title.
Derek Rickard (00:18:34):
I like it. Yeah, it's good. I didn't pick it.
Rob Collie (00:18:36):
It picked you. That's what it picked, it picked you.
Derek Rickard (00:18:39):
I guess it picked me. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:18:40):
Okay. So you are now a certified made man of data, chief data officer. Whatever happens from here on out, your resumes is going to lead with that.
Derek Rickard (00:18:50):
Oh yeah. That will be the first thing after my name, Derek Rickard.
Rob Collie (00:18:54):
Jean-Luc Ricard.
Derek Rickard (00:18:55):
Yeah. I think that a title is a title, but what I'm really happy about is an organization that wants to actually invest in a data strategy that's not a data organization. They're records management, they're not like, "We're a syndicated data company, so we do data. We're focused on data." Of course they would have that focus, but this is a records management software and they're like, "We need to be better with our data so we want to have a strategy there and we need to invest in that." So that's what they did.
Rob Collie (00:19:22):
Yeah. There's some really interesting points there. So first of all, when Donald Farmer, we had him on the show, he said an interesting series of things, which is like, first of all, if you're a software company, you need to sooner or later come to the realization that you're also a data company. And if you're a data company, you need to come to the realization that you're also an analytics company. And then he said, if you're an analytics company, you need to quickly come to the realization that you need to be an advanced analytics company.
Derek Rickard (00:19:45):
He's got all the answers.
Rob Collie (00:19:46):
Dude, yeah, doesn't he?
Derek Rickard (00:19:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:48):
Another way to say it is, if a company like that, records management for any industry, if a company like that isn't a data company, where do we think data comes from? To me, if I'm going to analyze something, someone better be recording it for me. Someone needs to be generating the data. Any line of business software, that's where data comes from.
Derek Rickard (00:20:15):
Yeah, for real. And I think maybe from their perspective, the responsibilities just fell onto storage and retrieval. We're going to store it, it'll be organized and you'll be able to retrieve it. And there's a lot more to it than just that. In terms of value of the data, there's way more than just storage and retrieval.
Rob Collie (00:20:35):
But that's how it starts.
Derek Rickard (00:20:36):
Oh yeah, for sure. You have maturity.
Rob Collie (00:20:38):
Storage and retrieval is the only thing, and I don't know if you've read my magnum opus series of articles on exactly this topic, but storage and retrieval is where it all begins. You have to have storage and retrieval.
Derek Rickard (00:20:51):
Those are basics.
Rob Collie (00:20:53):
And when it's time for the first cut of analytics or reporting, when everyone's out there, the storage and retrieval professionals have to be there, this is why the industry started with the storage and retrieval people and that mindset, and it's why the analytics industry has had a hangover for a long time. That sequel, isn't actually a good analysis tool at all. I know Tom's horrified, but come on, it's just not, it wasn't built for that. It wasn't built for that. And so when you said storage and retrieval, my eyes just lit up. That's why the earth cooled. So tell me more about that, to the extent that you're allowed to, what is the data strategy?
Derek Rickard (00:21:34):
Well, I think talk in theory about it, and honestly, this is why I don't write a lot of blog posts or anything like that, is materializing the random things that are happening in my head, don't always work correctly, especially if I'm writing, talking is a little bit better.
Rob Collie (00:21:48):
It's not a whole lot better, honestly, when you're talking, but we'll take it.
Derek Rickard (00:21:52):
But in general, we have data in retrieval, that's covered. And actually a lot of the retrieval for them is through paginated reporting, which is great because so many things need that, that we have to get this form to the government and we have to report it to the government entity, and it has to be the same all the time. It can't be wildly different and paginated reporting was a really good option when they first started. And it actually still is a good option for things that require paginated reports. That's great for retrieving an incident at a time or maybe some summary, but not really great for understanding the aggregates of your data.
Derek Rickard (00:22:26):
So this is again in terms of data maturity. We have storage and retrieval and business intelligence maturity would be like descriptive analytics first, your descriptive data first. So just like, what our aggregates look like? What is there their trend been over time for incidents? What's our seasonality with fires? And how is it growing? Is it staying the same? How is it when we compare it to our staff, our personnel? Do we have less personnel working for fire now than we did before? Are we meeting our standards to make sure that we can stay accredited? These types of questions.
Derek Rickard (00:23:00):
All those things right now, I think a lot of them are done offline, at least they weren't done offline. So they would pull out these RS reports or paginated reports and they would compile the data themselves and they'd say, "Oh, this is how we can get our accreditation." And meanwhile, I'm saying, "Well, we could have it. We can embed analytics products in here that will at least at the very least be able to describe your aggregates. We can do that." That was what we piloted in 2020. So as I said, I had only started there in January 4th, that was when I took that position, but I was with ER in a consultant capacity for mid '17 or later in 2017, I've been working with them.
Derek Rickard (00:23:37):
Super small stuff at first and then eventually larger things. But we saw this like, "Hey, we can do more with this data for our customers so we should try to embed analytics." And it's something that they tried to do before as well, but it just didn't work out. It was too complex, there were too many problems with it and we took a different approach. We went really lean, we said, "Okay, we're just going to try to embed some analytic reporting." And we got our first module up, I think in February or March of last year, our incidence module, and then we just expanded from there.
Derek Rickard (00:24:05):
And these modules are sizable, they're not tiny, but we have five modules now, all analytical reporting, again, the basic. So the approach we take is we put it out there and we ask folks what they think about it, there's like maybe six, 7,000, I don't remember how many customers, how many fire departments are using us. So getting feedback from them and aggregating the feedback is a whole another thing, but understanding like, "Okay, these things are good, these things are bad, we would really like different reports." So that strategy is one side of the customer facing business intelligence or analytical reporting to embed in our software. So that's one of the strategies. Oh, that was super long, people are asleep now, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:24:41):
No. This is the good stuff. So I can't help it.
Derek Rickard (00:24:45):
You should interrupt, there's too way too much of me talking.
Rob Collie (00:24:48):
I'm trying to be polite. I'm not just waiting for my turn to talk. Okay, maybe I am.
Derek Rickard (00:24:53):
But like some people, you can't really see where I'm looking, but I'm looking right at Tom.
Rob Collie (00:24:59):
Yeah. He chooses his moment and right when you least expect it... So what is the technology for this embedding?
Derek Rickard (00:25:10):
Well, that's the thing is we were going lean. So we were going lean with, we don't want it to take forever, we would love to just embed it and not have to worry about it. So we did Power BI Embedded, and that's known. When customers go to the analytics screen, the embedded stuff, you'll see the Power BI logo pop up before the screen renders. So that's what we're using for that. Backend wise, it's a little bit different, we separated out the engine. So Power BI is the visualization layer essentially.
Rob Collie (00:25:36):
That's what I was wondering, is which kind of lean? There's lean from the, we don't want to develop an enormous amount of software in-house for analytics. And then there's lean in terms of it doesn't really offer the customer very much. And definitely it sounds like it's the former, by embedding Power BI, which I did not know that's what you were doing. Honestly, I didn't know, I was hoping.
Derek Rickard (00:26:03):
I don't know how you wouldn't.
Rob Collie (00:26:04):
I was hoping that's what you chose, but I was expecting you to say, "We coded up our own charts and visuals." And then I was going to go, "Boo, bad decision." And Nope, you guys, you were smart, you did it, I think, the right way. No line of business software company should ever be in the business of building their own analytics engine.
Derek Rickard (00:26:25):
That was the thing is that the engine, the technology behind Power Pivot and Power BI, the Analysis Services engine is so powerful and that's the only part that doesn't have the power name to it, it's just Analysis Services. It should be Power Analysis Services.
Rob Collie (00:26:41):
They're working on it. They're going to have to negotiate with the organization formerly known as Pass for that acronym, to get the Power Analysis Services.
Derek Rickard (00:26:52):
Yes. It is amazing. And that is to me, seemed to be the obvious answer to what needed to happen. And like you said, "home growing this thing would take a lot of effort, and we're still on the fence on like, what is the customer reaction to these things? We know that customers would like to have analytical reporting, but we don't know once they see it, once it's in front of their face, what is the reaction to that? Do they want more? Do they're like, "Oh, cool, check that box. Now, we're moving on to whatever we're doing"? So that was the lean approach too, the models we created were lean. They didn't have tons and tons of data points because we don't need them, meaning, when I say data points I mean columns and tables.
Derek Rickard (00:27:30):
We started with a small set, and then as soon as we got feedback, we would expand, add onto that, like, "Okay, that sounds right, we should add that for this model, maybe we add a tab to the report," whatever we're doing, but that was our general approach. And that made it fast to stand up. And we had our web devs working on the embedded piece, but creating the reports, that's not that bad, that's a quick turnaround. In fact, I think the amount of time we were working on the reports and vetting them and making sure that they're going to make sense in front of folks was maybe a month, maybe. So that was nice.
Thomas LaRock (00:27:59):
I want Rob to repeat what he just said though, no companies should be doing their own analytics?
Rob Collie (00:28:04):
No.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:04):
I'm sorry.
Rob Collie (00:28:05):
No line of business software company should be building their own analytics engine.
Derek Rickard (00:28:12):
It seems like a feudal effort.
Rob Collie (00:28:13):
It's already been done by others in a way better manner.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:15):
You're using some words, I feel I need to have you dive down. As somebody who works for a software company that may or may not be doing some analytics. So I want to know more. I think you mean more like our accountants shouldn't be doing their own or something.
Rob Collie (00:28:34):
That's also true. Well, hold on. Now I actually mean that it take some, just some random company that might be in the news like Solar Winds.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:45):
Never had of them.
Rob Collie (00:28:46):
A lot of data is being generated, collected, tagged all those sorts of things in that system by one of the things that it does, it's actually in some grand over simplification, is really all that it does. Of course, the customers are going to want analytics and reporting over that data. Of course they are. So what has happened over and over and over again in history is that at that moment in time, a company like Solar Winds will then say, "Great. We will go essentially build our own in-house BI software that does or attempts to do many of the same things as like the Microsoft Power platform."
Rob Collie (00:29:25):
"And then build that into our software, and we're going to build a reporting services, paginated reporting competitor, but we're never going to sell it as a general purpose tool. We're only going to build it for our own purposes and we're going to build a Power BI competitor." And of course those things are not nearly as well-funded at that company as they would be at a company that's like all in on analytics as their core mission. And you don't necessarily have the right staff for it either. And so you end up with what becomes a very unsatisfying-
Derek Rickard (00:29:59):
And unstable.
Rob Collie (00:30:00):
Unstable. It's your under-delivering relative to customer need and at the same time, overspending, according to your original estimates of how much it was going to cost internally for you to develop. It's just the wrong move, especially today when things like Power BI Embedded are available to you.
Derek Rickard (00:30:16):
Yeah. You just get them plugged in.
Rob Collie (00:30:18):
Oh, here's where it gets good.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:20):
I would say that I live in an edge case then, and I think you are correct for, we'll say 85% of the companies out there, but from where I sit, I could probably give you a handful of examples where this is why it happens. It's not because the company would say to themselves, "We'll just do with ourselves." Sometimes your hands might be forced by say your customer base. So there's a delicate balance that has to happen. But I would agree with you when I think of my former life, some of the companies I've worked for previously, where we would have tried to do our own and built our own stuff.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:57):
And our customers are really internal customers and we would have done it ourselves or we would go try to buy a tool that would promise to be the only data warehouse you would ever need. They'll give you all the reports you want and all that stuff. Would you be surprised to learn that that failed?
Rob Collie (00:31:13):
No, not at all.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:13):
Right, exactly. So I can absolutely believe for that, but I'm going to tell you that there are some valid reasons where you end up, it's almost like you hit a tipping point. You get to this point where you're like, "Ah, you know this Rob." I'll look right and you can say, "I would love to have Power BI somehow hooked into a bunch of products, but we can't." And there are legitimate reasons why that's just never going to happen. And we are going to have to do stuff on our own.
Derek Rickard (00:31:39):
That's sucks.
Rob Collie (00:31:40):
Give me the number one reason.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:42):
Let's say you're a company and you have clients in both the public and private sector. So if you're Microsoft say, you probably have an entire team dedicated to doing whatever is necessary for your public sector. For example, Azure has data centers dedicated to government Fed. Microsoft's maybe not a great example because they're in the business of catering to these clients. Not everybody has that scenario, not everybody's on the Fed list, so to speak. But now let's say you're Microsoft and you've got a product and you think the product is great, and let's say this product doesn't have any valuable reporting at all, but you've got clients in both public and private.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:32):
And then you say, "You know what, hey, reporting, not problem. We built this file, we built this dashboard, just download Power BI, run everything, you're great." You're going to have clients. And the Fed sector would be like, "No, no separate download. We install, it's all in one, and it's there. It's in one tool. That's it. That's what we buy, that's what we're allowed to install. There's nothing extra. If you can't put it and embed it in the tool, then forget it." Now, I know you're going to tell me Power BI Embedded and all that stuff.
Rob Collie (00:33:00):
Derek, take it from here.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:02):
I'm using maybe a bad example of Microsoft, but it's not that a company thinks they're going to be able to do it better, it's that they end up because you hit a tipping point. Let's say you started out as one product in somebody's garage in Omaha or Tulsa, somewhere in the Midwest, and let's say you're now a conglomerate of 77 different products.
Rob Collie (00:33:24):
You need Power BI even more in that scenario.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:27):
Right. So you say, but you know the reality of trying to shove anything in there to make it all work across the board and you have to eat the elephant one bite at a time, so to speak.
Rob Collie (00:33:41):
We've had a guest on this show who comes from a Power BI background and is built and is building SaaS software product who ultimately chose not to use Power BI Embedded for their reporting. And I actually respected the decision in this case, it was Austin with ConServe. And the reason why it made sense for them is the trade-off curve in a particular direction, which is they actually don't need that much flexibility in terms of what they're eventually going to have to deliver in terms of analytics. It's really pretty obvious in the first 15 to 20 minutes of talking to them what their reports need to be showing their customers. There's not that much.
Rob Collie (00:34:23):
The universe of it is just not that broad compared to what it could be in a chaotic Wild West business sense. And so for them, it made sense to code at 100% themselves because they allowed them to control the user experience to a greater degree than what they could have with Power BI Embedded, and also probably for a lower ongoing cost to serve. But when the universe of analytics that's going to be required is unbounded, especially in a world where Power BI Embedded does exist, before Power BI Embedded, I think the world looks very different, but if you were building something from scratch today, your line of business is software or SaaS product, whatever, I think you'd have to look long and hard at the prospect of build on your own versus buy in the form of embedded, which as far as the customer is concerned, Derek, you can tell me if you agree, as far as the customer's concerned, other than the Power BI logo flickering at them briefly for a moment, it might as well be all one product, right?
Derek Rickard (00:35:27):
Yeah. There's no difference. We could even cover the Power BI logo.
Rob Collie (00:35:31):
What would you cover it with? Like a layer of paint?
Derek Rickard (00:35:33):
I don't know, any our logo, any of our logo. This is like a silly on it, it's just an ER logo. But yeah, you could even cover that. You can have it completely white labeled. You wouldn't fool me, but-
Rob Collie (00:35:44):
Yeah. You can tell me. If you know what you're looking for, you can tell the Power BI chart and what the controls look like and all of that.
Derek Rickard (00:35:51):
I do want to say, Tom, that I'm not against going outside of Power BI as a visualization layer, and that's actually why I separated the engine out because we may want a different visualization layer later. We may not want to do Power BI Embedded.
Rob Collie (00:36:03):
When you say engine, you mean the Analysis Services Engine?
Derek Rickard (00:36:06):
That's the one.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:08):
And I should say, "I've come to realize that you guys are talking about, like Rob just said, you're talking about doing some real analysis, whereas a lot of the things in my world is really, it's the metric collection and correlation of those metrics in the time series. We all need to embed Power BI for that, but we are getting to the point where we wanted to do things like anomaly detection, so everybody's getting to that point. I would think that type of analysis is still going to be something you're going to want built into the product and not necessarily done for you. And here's why, is because you know your data better than Microsoft.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:48):
And if Microsoft is giving me a widget to help with anomaly detection, I'm getting the Filet-O-Fish version of anomaly detection and it could work.
Derek Rickard (00:37:00):
Delicious.
Thomas LaRock (00:37:00):
Yeah, it's delicious. I love them, I could eat a dozen-
Rob Collie (00:37:05):
But it is junk food.
Thomas LaRock (00:37:06):
But it's junk food, but it's going to do what I need it to do at that moment, but I'm going to be able to tell the model what is truly anomalous or not, and I may not get that from an off the shelf product.
Derek Rickard (00:37:21):
Yeah. And if we're talking about plugging in AIML stuff, I see that as a totally different thing from what I'm talking about with just the Power BI visualization layer, because the visualization layer is just that, it's only for visualizing and all that other stuff you just talked about can be baked into the background in different tools, honestly. So they have Azure Synapse Analytics is out now on the Microsoft side and that's one that you can plug into AIML and that type of stuff. And they use those kinds of black box algorithms and that type of thing, and that's where I totally agree. Have you ever right clicked and do the see insights from a Visual and Power BI?
Rob Collie (00:37:56):
Yes.
Derek Rickard (00:37:57):
So many things are not useful, but there are a couple of things that are, but most of the time, it's not useful.
Rob Collie (00:38:02):
You get things like the correlation between what leads to a successful product, like a product that sold the-
Derek Rickard (00:38:08):
More quantity.
Rob Collie (00:38:08):
That's right. That's right. The most dollars always tends to correlate really strongly with quantity. That's deep.
Derek Rickard (00:38:15):
Yes. That is some deep learning.
Rob Collie (00:38:18):
That's the deep, deep, stuff there
Derek Rickard (00:38:20):
Yeah. And that's the stuff you have to sit down, and that's why I agree with you, Tom, that's not really always useful.
Rob Collie (00:38:27):
It's so funny. But Tom, even thought you were saying, I actually think we're really hitting on the same thing, which is the amount of variation. So if Microsoft builds a piece of software that is like non configurable, it's more of a novelty. It's like a little bit of a novelty slapped onto the side of the product, it's like demo ware and it says, "Hey, this can be one-size-fits-all." And it turns out to not know anything about your domain and it's not going to be very good for it. That stands in sharp contrast to the majority of their platform, which is the complete opposite. DAX is like Power BI, the Analysis Services Engine is like, "Oh yeah, we're ready for you."
Rob Collie (00:39:05):
In fact, one of the criticisms that you'll often hear of it in the marketplace is how little it will do for you without being configured. And I'm always like, "No, no. That's a strength of this, don't you dare flinch. This is the real deal. Data's doing it right, it's never easy. Don't you dare try to make it like out of the box, wa-lah magic, does what you want." So in the case of like SolarWinds, if there isn't going to be much variation across what each customer needs, that tends toward build in-house. It was just exactly what happened with Austin at ConServe, there isn't a lot of variation required. Whereas Derek's walking into a situation where he's got thousands of customers working in completely...
Rob Collie (00:39:51):
They're all fighting fires, but some literally, but probably with wildly different reporting requirements, wildly different budget requirements, every single municipality is run differently, he needs to be prepared to meet the world where it is, which is going to be potentially a tremendous pallet of variation. And in that situation, you really can't build internally and ever succeed at it.
Derek Rickard (00:40:18):
No, you'll never win that battle. You're always going to be a constant struggle.
Rob Collie (00:40:23):
I'm okay, you're okay where are we always land. No controversy here.
Derek Rickard (00:40:28):
Back to the controversy where we're saying there's some cases where you can have that. Like I said, that is why Power BI is the visualization layer for us. And maybe there's a time in the future where we want to swap that out, but-
Rob Collie (00:40:40):
I love that you left that door open. I don't think enough people consider this as maybe your visualization tools. Now, again, if there's a wide variety of variation to be expected, you don't want to be the person that's re-inventing the bar chart and all the settings that have to go on it. That is a lot of work for not a lot of love. If your bar chart sucks-
Derek Rickard (00:41:01):
Can you just make it a pie chart please? I like all 20 categories in one pie.
Thomas LaRock (00:41:06):
That's all anybody wants, is to pie chart. At the end of the day, that's all they... Oh my God.
Derek Rickard (00:41:10):
They're like, "Thank goodness you made it a pie chart." I'm like, "Oh," and I die a little inside.
Rob Collie (00:41:14):
You'll be wanting a thermometer gauges next. Yes?
Derek Rickard (00:41:17):
Oh yeah. "Something that takes up a lot of real estate and barely says anything, do you have anything like that?" "Yes. Yes we do."
Rob Collie (00:41:24):
I just want my report to be one giant colored button. It's only three buttons, three different colors that can it display, red, green or yellow.
Derek Rickard (00:41:31):
Yeah, it's a red rover situation.
Rob Collie (00:41:34):
I feel like we needed a sub-genre of Gary Larson, Far Side cartoons that was like the Neanderthals building reports.
Derek Rickard (00:41:43):
You do it. You do it. Get to drawing.
Rob Collie (00:41:46):
Management says make simpler. So how's that going? You said that you joined in January, and by like February or March, you had your first couple of modules out or whatever.
Derek Rickard (00:41:57):
No, no, no, no. Sorry. Let's back that up a little bit. I joined in January. I took the CDO position in January of this year.
Rob Collie (00:42:02):
Of this year?
Derek Rickard (00:42:03):
Yeah. That's been four months since it's been like the double-down on, "Hey, we're going to do this. We're going to branch out and do this even more. We're going to put the pedal to the metal and actually create a data org in our organization." So that's only been four months. But last year was the pilot program like, "Let's embed an analytics tool and see what people think about it." And it was awesome and people loved it. From there, we got more requests for larger organizations, The Army being one of them. And they were like, "We'd love to have this at the installation level, but we would love to see this at the top."
Derek Rickard (00:42:33):
So we went to DC preCOVID. So this was still last year that we talked to them about this Embedded analytics stuff and we showed them what we had already, they're like, "Can we make this roll up to the top level?" And of course, as you know, Rob, all the data's in that model. Now, it is separated. Tom, you know it's separated for gov versus whatever, but all the data's in that model so rolling it up is a matter of just releasing the low level security and having a different entry point for that model.
Derek Rickard (00:43:02):
And then of course, changing the report to be more applicable to someone who's looking at it from really a full entity view. But that was a perfect example of them wanting more. They're like, "We want group level analytics." And that makes the most sense, of course they would want that. So counties would want that and fire marshals also, they'll want that same thing too. So that's pretty cool that we opened up that.
Rob Collie (00:43:21):
So it didn't take long to stand it up, it doesn't sound like.
Derek Rickard (00:43:25):
Yeah, it wasn't long to stand up, and the pilot went well. Let's say that. People really enjoyed it.
Rob Collie (00:43:30):
Okay. All right. So it was a successful product launch?
Derek Rickard (00:43:33):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:43:34):
How much curiosity are you seeing? There's two different problems you can have when you release the flood gates like this. One of them is, you're just getting hit from every possible angle with all kinds of requests and you're just like, "Oh, what Pandora's box if we opened?" And the other one is crickets, everyone just saying, "Yep, we love it. It's great. Thanks." But no one has any constructive criticism or you're not getting enough of that and it makes you wonder if they're really using it
Derek Rickard (00:44:03):
Well, the wondering doesn't have to happen because we can monitor it, so we can see how it's being used and the folks that are using it. But I will say, it comes in waves, the feedback. We do get feedback, and it's great. And most of the time, people are really happy and they're just asking if something else can be included. In the terms of maturity, this is still very much in the toddler years, the descriptive analytics type thing. So the questions being asked are like, "Hey, can we see these things at this level by station?" Which of station would have been done right away.
Derek Rickard (00:44:32):
So we were getting feedbacks, but they come in waves because they have waves of reporting requirements. So every quarter, they have to submit reports to other folks, every year, they have to do some accreditation reporting. So that's when we were seeing that feedback. And I wish it was a little bit ahead of that because we could try to put something together so we can service accreditation reporting needs for like a ton of fire departments at once. But that's something that we're working on. We're trying to work that out and the company is trying to work that out. It's like, "How can we get ahead of that so that we can really help folks out before they need it?"
Rob Collie (00:45:01):
How much, if any, of Power BIs self service capabilities have you exposed to your customers at this point? Do any of them ever see a field list where they could drag, drop and create different visual, or you basically for the moment or maybe forever, all reports are going to be built in-house?
Derek Rickard (00:45:21):
Great question. So the idea with releasing this pilot too... And this is called BI Basic, that's what this whole entity is called, BI Basic. So we have BI Groups, which is where I was saying larger entities want to roll up their analytics or roll up their numbers to their level, and that's the BI Groups. But anyway, BI Basic is what we have, and there's this concept of BI Pro. The concept of BI Pro is to actually author your own from a creative model, and that authoring environment would be embedded in the application. Now, we don't know if people want that. Part of this whole process is to get it out in front of folks, see what they want.
Derek Rickard (00:45:59):
And really, when you're a SaaS company and you're working with your clients, especially the variety of clients we have, we have volunteer fire departments who are like, "We just want you to make the reports for us and we do our thing and then leave. There may not be people, the resources there to dedicate to creating their own report or understanding how to create it or whatever." And then you get these gigantic entities that want to, "It's cool that you have your Power BI stuff, but I want to put it into my data warehouse. I want that data to land right in my SQL database so I can do stuff with it too." So we have this huge variety of customers or possible customers that we don't know where to go without some feedback. So this is partly product management.
Rob Collie (00:46:39):
It really takes me back. When I was first working on BI for the first time in my career, working on the Excel team, early 2000s, and we were working with the analysis services team. We were still all collectively under the impression that the output, the customer-facing, user-facing output of an analysis services model was a field list.A field list and a blank canvas, that's what the world wanted. They wanted to see that cube, they wanted to see what was in it and everything. And, oh my gosh, did it take years to get that myth beaten out of me.
Derek Rickard (00:47:17):
Busted. "Hey, here's a pivot table. Here's a pivot table. This is empty. You can do whatever you want with it."
Rob Collie (00:47:22):
Is that great?
Derek Rickard (00:47:23):
Blank stares.
Rob Collie (00:47:24):
No, no, not great. In fact, I've come full circle, which is that, we were talking about Power BI and Power Pivot in the beginning as the self-service tool. Again, still, a little bit with that hangover. Actually, with a lot of it, of like, "Yeah, the business really wants that field list." So it turns out that the same... This is good news. This is a happy accident in a way. The same technological improvements and usability improvements that were required to enable this self-service revolution that we saw, we were trying to start in 2010, the same improvements that even made it there actually ended up being really, really, really useful for the small percentage of people, much smaller percentage than what we thought.
Rob Collie (00:48:07):
For them to very quickly pivot... I didn't mean to do that.
Derek Rickard (00:48:11):
Good one.
Rob Collie (00:48:13):
Maybe I did, but it's terrible. Very quickly respond to the needs of their users by creating new reports. And so I can totally understand where you're at right now. You should not assume that everyone's dying for that flexibility. It's nice that you can provide it if you want to, but in the meantime, the fact that you have the flexibility, you don't have to commission some new dev sprint to modify or improve what's in your embedded analytics. because you're a God of your own data. Once your way around DAX and data modeling, and you do, it's amazing what you can do in a short period of time.
Derek Rickard (00:48:54):
Yeah, it's fantastic.
Rob Collie (00:48:55):
I'm curious to see where you ultimately land in this.
Derek Rickard (00:48:57):
I'm excited to say that just what you're describing and what I described. I'm forgetting that prior to this, in my consultancy, oftentimes, the discussion I would have with anybody asking about Power BI or technology or whatever, how to incorporate it in their company is this idea of levels of authorship, because there are different styles of authors. They're the kind that create the models, and this isn't anything new, but materializing it was good. So there are the kinds of make the models, and they can make reports as well, but those are certain type of person.
Derek Rickard (00:49:26):
And then the people that can create reports from the model, that can be a different layer of authorship. And then the people that make dashboards from the reports, that can be a different layer of authorship. And not to mention the people that prep the data for the model, that's a different layer. There's all these different layers. And what's been happening since 2010, and actually before that too, but what's been happening is that we're opening the doors for those authors and allowing them to be a part of that too, and service their next layer of customers.
Rob Collie (00:49:53):
I feel like y'all would be an amazing case study for Microsoft on Power BI Embedded. Have you explored?
Derek Rickard (00:50:01):
The CEO of Emergency Reporting, his name is David Nokes, and I know that he talks with Microsoft about these types of things. So I don't know what exactly, but I know that he talks to them about, "Hey, ER is this." Because we're a Microsoft shop all around. So it's cool to have that partnership with them and for there to be case study or whatever. I agree though, I think it would be a very cool thing to say like, "Oh, this is one of our clients."
Rob Collie (00:50:25):
It checks all the boxes.
Derek Rickard (00:50:27):
Yeah. Public safety.
Rob Collie (00:50:28):
Public safety, government. It's just a feel good story.
Derek Rickard (00:50:31):
Sure is.
Rob Collie (00:50:32):
It'd just be like a slice of apple pie just sitting there in the foreground of the picture on the front of the case study and no one would ever think twice.
Derek Rickard (00:50:39):
No one.
Rob Collie (00:50:40):
No one. It just belonged there.
Derek Rickard (00:50:41):
It does sound good though. I am so hungry, but we'll get lunch after. We'll get lunch after.
Rob Collie (00:50:46):
So chief data officer.
Derek Rickard (00:50:47):
Sure. Have you heard that position? I'm sure you have.
Rob Collie (00:50:49):
I have, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:50):
I have, but you could tell me more about... To me, it's like a DBA. It means a different thing depending on the company you're at. So yeah, tell us more about what your duties are as chief data officer.
Derek Rickard (00:51:02):
Sure. Yeah. And first, I want to say, I agree with you. It does differ for sure. And when offered the position, I furiously Googled to figure out what is going on. I already kind of knew, but I had in my mind at some point I'm like, "Oh, it'd be cool to be a chief analytics officer. That'd be neat." And then it's like, "Hey, we want to offer you this position, chief data officer." I'm like, "Ooh, okay. What does that mean? How is that different? How does that play into an organization?" And once we talked about it, I'm like, "Okay, this does fit in nicely." So essentially, you've got this river, untamed water everywhere. Lots of people would like to use the water, but they can't tame it. It's dirty. They don't know what to do with it.
Derek Rickard (00:51:44):
So you get engineers that come in and then they build some infrastructure around it and they dam it. And then they work on like a delivery systems and that kind of stuff, get it out to crops so crops can use it. But they still have to manage how much water is going to those places, they still have to manage the quality. They still have to do all those things. The CDO position is more like the quality and delivery and volume of water that gets out to folks. And the IT department is like the infrastructure, they're the ones that built the dams. So that is the only way that I've been able to understand it.
Rob Collie (00:52:19):
I love the metaphor. It comes in and builds a dam. "No more water for you."
Derek Rickard (00:52:25):
No more water. Just no more water for people downstream.
Rob Collie (00:52:27):
That's right. Yes. Upstream is great. Back here, behind here, we've got all kinds of water. It's like the joke the write-only database, now, we are hoarding.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:37):
If there's no water, that's going to lead to shadow water, shadow IT.
Rob Collie (00:52:41):
That's right.
Derek Rickard (00:52:41):
Exactly. Now, of course the water is the data. Everybody knows this, right?
Rob Collie (00:52:46):
That's right. That's right.
Derek Rickard (00:52:48):
I didn't have to really point out that the water is the data-
Rob Collie (00:52:50):
The water is the data.
Derek Rickard (00:52:51):
... that's untamed and disgusting.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:53):
Oh, I thought the water was water.
Derek Rickard (00:52:54):
It's also water, Tom.
Rob Collie (00:52:55):
Or like the pipelines, the oil pipelines and gas pipelines, like in Iraq or whatever, like people tapping into it on a guerilla basis. And every now and then, that goes really horribly wrong.
Derek Rickard (00:53:06):
Yeah, that's what happens with data too. You tap into that big stream and it can mess you up.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:11):
I like your analogy as well. We just need to polish it so you can deliver it a little cleaner.
Derek Rickard (00:53:15):
Yeah. I just made it up.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:17):
I wanted to ask more, you're responsible for the cleanliness of the water?
Derek Rickard (00:53:22):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:23):
Okay. But are you also responsible for the streamlining of the water? It's all water. It's the same water that comes from four different sources, we don't need all four sources. Right?
Derek Rickard (00:53:34):
We can consolidate water. We can cleanse water. We can deliver water out to other folks that need it, that could use it. And that doesn't happen without infrastructure. You can't do that without some infrastructure in place. So I work tightly with the CTO.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:47):
How about in terms of the consolidation? How about data lineage? Does that also fall under you?
Derek Rickard (00:53:55):
Data lineage and quality and metadata, that would all fall under me.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:58):
So what tools are you using to identify all of the incoming sources of data?
Derek Rickard (00:54:06):
A really good question, and I just started in January. So as far as tools, we're still taking inventory of our stuff. I'll say in terms of data maturity, the company has given their customers way more of their efforts than internal. So part of what I'm tasked with is not only the customer-facing stuff, which is great. And I really enjoy doing that, but also the internal data stuff. The internal data works well in their silos. We've got the sales silo, marketing's good, customer care's good, finance is good.
Derek Rickard (00:54:37):
But when the processes, the business processes that span those departments, it gets a little ragged, it's a little dirty. So being able to identify the processes, put measurements on them, having data flow through that so we can actually monitor what's going on in the business, super important. And that's something that's an obstacle for a lot of companies, but it's also an obstacle for Emergency Reporting. And they're doing fine, but I'm just saying that's something that I'm tasked with, is to clean up those waters as well. So enterprise data is one of the three pillars of my group. Did that answer your question, Tom? No, it didn't because I don't have an answer, because I don't know what tool.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:13):
Yeah, no it did, when you said, "Look, I just started." And your first thing is you're not at that stage yet, so you just haven't gotten there yet because you're still in the stage of basically taking inventory. And I get that, and that's a fine answer. I was really focused on how you said good question because I don't get that often from our guests. So I'm marking it down.
Derek Rickard (00:55:35):
Yeah. This is a good question session.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:37):
Yeah. So when I had my performance review with Rob later-
Derek Rickard (00:55:42):
Reference that, "Remember that time I had a good question?"
Rob Collie (00:55:44):
Tom, yesterday we drove down with our son to meet with Wayne Winston and his wife. So we listened to the Wayne Winston Podcast again. And I got to hear him say three times in a row, how smart you were or something like that, and you're like, "Oh, write that down, write that down. I'm writing it down again."
Thomas LaRock (00:56:02):
Yeah, that never happens. I don't know how. It must be the math background or something. Wayne is just a nice guy. He's just so polite.
Rob Collie (00:56:09):
He's super nice. Willing to meet with our son who is a potential IU business student in the fall. And we're in the Kelley School of Business and people are walking by saying hi to him and everything. It's like, "Yup, he's the real deal." So I want to get in the Wayback Machine a little bit. We started your story at Excel and Access, pre Power Pivot.
Derek Rickard (00:56:31):
Oh, yeah. Don't forget Crystal Reports.
Rob Collie (00:56:32):
And Crystal Reports. Ooh, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:36):
It's like we're twins or something, because BusinessObjects, Crystal Reports, Access.
Derek Rickard (00:56:42):
A lot of Sage, which wasn't Sage back then. MAS. Companies are using a lot of MAS 200 and so on.
Rob Collie (00:56:50):
So let's rewind to your choice, dealer's choice, one or two points in your past. Either, the very beginning like what you were studying in school or whatever, or your first collision with Excel, with data. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that probably there's a point in your life where you'd have no idea that you were going to someday hold the title chief data officer.
Derek Rickard (00:57:16):
Yeah, probably. That's accurate. So if we go way back to the Wayback Machine. I graduated with my degree in math. That's where I was. I started my master's program because I was going to be a teacher, not a secondary ed teacher, which there's special types of people that are great educators who do that, I wanted to do the college or university route, because I really didn't want to have that pressure on me about caring whether or not people come to class. I was like, "I just want to teach people who want to learn stuff. That sounds freaking awesome. And that's what I want to do."
Derek Rickard (00:57:48):
And I went down that path then I discovered real quick that... Very shortly into my master's program, I'm like, "I don't think I want to do this. The pay off is not that good." There's not good pay for teachers, guys. I don't know if that already, but there isn't. And the other part of this was financial because I was an out-of-state student. So out-of-state tuition is more expensive. I somehow thought that I could get in-state tuition for my master's program because I had lived here for four years, but that did not work. So it was also on top of me being like, "Oh man, not only will this not quite work out in terms of pay, it won't be awesome for pay, but it also is going to cost me a lot more." And I was like, "Ugh." So I just stopped.
Derek Rickard (00:58:28):
I was like, "I'll just pause it and I might come back to it." I spent a little bit of time for the next year, I was an interim coordinator for the Tutorial Center at Western. So I had worked at the Tutorial Center there my entire school career. So I tutored math and science and got to a point where I was a "lead tutor." That's in quotes, lead tutor, and would go to the classrooms and announced that we were at the Tutorial Center and we're here and you can come visit us and we'll, whatever. And it was really fun, and that's what got me my teaching book because I really didn't know before that. So I ran the Tutorial Center for about a year while they were looking for someone who had a master's degree.
Derek Rickard (00:59:04):
But anyway, during that time, that's when I first started getting into Excel because we've got to do budgets. So I started budgeting in Excel, I was like, "Okay. Yeah, it's Excel, it's a grid." I knew it was there and I never used it. But once that job was over is when I got my job at Homax. So that job, that decision to go work be an office person at a manufacturing company was just like, "Hey, I need to have a job." So I took that one, and I at first worked as a sales support person, so I would help out the sales person, put together planograms or whatever they would need to do, I would help them out.
Derek Rickard (00:59:39):
And sometimes that would include numbers, and that's when I was really getting more associated with Excel.
Rob Collie (00:59:44):
It's not funny. So you're basically working for the math department at one point in time, which of course essentially never, never condescends to use a tool like Excel, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:59:56):
Hold on.
Derek Rickard (00:59:57):
They do. They do.
Rob Collie (00:59:59):
Not in class.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:01):
What need does a math major have for Excel?
Derek Rickard (01:00:06):
We use MATLAB.
Rob Collie (01:00:06):
Polenti. That's a dish by the way, Polenti.
Derek Rickard (01:00:08):
Polenti.
Rob Collie (01:00:09):
It's like a corn mash thing, but it's-
Derek Rickard (01:00:13):
Oh, that's corny.
Rob Collie (01:00:14):
Oh. Anyway, this is Wayne's story too. He's been teaching business analytics and not analytics, they didn't call it that, but he's teaching all this business stuff, and then in 1992, someone like nudges him to try doing some of this in Excel instead. And he's like, "Oh my God, this is just as effective if not more so, and I can make it more accessible to the students, then all of the crazy stuff I've been trying to teach them the abstract stuff." And he just goes all in on Excel as essentially as his math tool.
Derek Rickard (01:00:46):
Well, that's awesome. That's cool.
Rob Collie (01:00:47):
There probably wasn't a class in that master's program that you abandoned or course of study that involves spreadsheets.
Derek Rickard (01:00:55):
No, there wasn't. Sorry, I hear car horn in the background.
Rob Collie (01:00:57):
That's okay. That car horn is saying, "That's right, preach."
Derek Rickard (01:01:00):
There was no Excel in the master's program. That's true.
Rob Collie (01:01:04):
But then you're doing this administrative tasks for them, and suddenly now we've got to use a spreadsheet, it's the only thing that works.
Derek Rickard (01:01:12):
And by the way, every other department is using the same thing. So everybody's using Excel.
Rob Collie (01:01:16):
You didn't reach for MATLAB, you didn't reach for Mathematica, you didn't reach for linear matrices. I find something deliciously ironic that I like it.
Derek Rickard (01:01:28):
It's true too. And I think I knew from an early age from my parents that there are jobs where your degree is tightly correlated with your profession, like a lawyer, they're going to have a Juris doctorate. Doctors, they're going to have their things, whatever they have, PhDs. So there's those. And then there are times when it's like, "Man, it doesn't really matter what your degrees." Those ties because you have a bachelor's degree. And that was what I did, I was like, "Okay, I'll go work at Homax because I have a bachelor's degree." And it turns out that that actually put me on my path of where I ended up.
Derek Rickard (01:02:01):
And ultimately where I ended up was just teaching people again. I still love it. I took that job at Homax because I just needed a job, student loans were coming up and I needed to start paying them, that kind of thing. It just turns out that the path I went down with business intelligence, eventually business intelligence consulting, is just another form of teaching complex concepts, try to make them simple, deliver them to people. That pattern has always been there from the get-go, university on, which is really cool. And then now that I'm doing my thing, the CDO gig, I get to do that more too with just more people. It's a fun thing.
Rob Collie (01:02:34):
So do you miss the freelance work? You mentioned that Source to Share still operates.
Derek Rickard (01:02:38):
Yeah, it does. And I don't know if you've ever met Bo, but Bozeman's working with me since 2015. So he basically took on all the clients and still operates. I still get to have chats about cool stuff with our clients, stuff that they're doing.
Rob Collie (01:02:53):
It's just like the Dread Pirate Roberts or the Dread Pirate Roberts for awhile. And then you take them on and then you kill all the crew and take on a new crew and then you're calling him Roberts?
Derek Rickard (01:03:02):
Yes. That's what's happening. So he is Roberts and I am the old Robert. I'm realizing why you like this is because your name's all over the place. We're scrapping this.
Rob Collie (01:03:14):
I'm not Robert.
Derek Rickard (01:03:15):
Oh, Robert, Robert, Rob.
Rob Collie (01:03:17):
I do not go by Robert, although you enter your name into a particular app, if you choose to use your full name, so now every time I go into Starbucks to pick up my coffee, I'm Robert.
Derek Rickard (01:03:32):
Oh, there it is.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:32):
You should change. You should change your Starbucks' name. That's easy.
Rob Collie (01:03:33):
I don't want to risk that. The next thing I lose all my history.
Derek Rickard (01:03:35):
What about your favorite drinks?
Thomas LaRock (01:03:36):
No, no, no. Look, my Starbucks name is Sickle Rockstar. It isn't that difficult. I didn't lose any history. It's simple. You can do it in the app.
Rob Collie (01:03:44):
I will be the Dread Pirate Roberts.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:46):
Exactly. You need to have a unique Starbucks name. I can't just walk in there, "Coffee for Tom." There's like six people walking up. No, no.
Derek Rickard (01:03:55):
I'm Tom, is it black coffee? Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:03:56):
It is like six people waiting for black coffees.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:58):
Exactly.
Derek Rickard (01:04:01):
Oh, I will say that every once in a while I'll get invited to be a guest lecturer for the MBA program at Western to talk about BI, it's really fun to talk about BI strategy. So I do that about once a quarter.
Rob Collie (01:04:15):
Is that like a one day thing or one hour or?
Derek Rickard (01:04:19):
I just cram all of it in two hours, which is not long enough, but it's fine. So they just had me come in because they already are learning those things. So it's about having someone from the industry talk to those things, ask questions of me or whatever. And it's super fun, I do like that. And I do go over like SlideDeck, PowerPoint of some things, but for the most part, it's free conversation.
Rob Collie (01:04:40):
It's quite rewarding. So you just go in there and say, "Yeah, here's what they'll tell you, and that's all. Here's the reality." You just do that over and over again?
Derek Rickard (01:04:48):
When I'm invited to do a guest lecture, it's actually someone who I've worked with at Homax of all places, and he's also a teacher, he's also an instructor for the MBA programs. So that's cool because he also knows real world application. And I think that that's why he invites me because I see a lot of that. And there's a decent number of folks who are also working in the industry, half the time, it's for the executive MBA program. So these people are working full-time and then doing the MBA program on the weekends. So yeah, lots of questions come up and it's really fun to be challenged. I do like being challenged.
Rob Collie (01:05:19):
Do you ever do any like open mic stand up?
Derek Rickard (01:05:22):
No. No, I don't do any of that.
Rob Collie (01:05:24):
Well, we have a couple of people on our team that do, I'm not one of them.
Derek Rickard (01:05:27):
I would flop so hard at open mics.
Rob Collie (01:05:30):
And they say the same thing. You've got to be willing to do that.
Derek Rickard (01:05:33):
Yeah. I could not do that. I got a mic though. That's fun.
Rob Collie (01:05:36):
You just need someone to set you up. That's the problem. It's like the scripted wouldn't be your thing.
Derek Rickard (01:05:40):
No, I can't do that at all. You guys know, you're like, "Hey, can you repeat something?" And I'm like, "No, I can't do that. I'm so bad at it." The storage and retrieval in here, not working, not working at all.
Rob Collie (01:05:55):
Speaking storage and retrieval, I'm definitely going to have to send you the link to the three-part Opus. On the previous episode, we're talking about how information is surprise. If no surprise, no information. You're probably going to find no information.
Derek Rickard (01:06:07):
Okay. Well, that's fine.
Rob Collie (01:06:08):
I don't think you're going to be surprised by anything in this three-part series. However, even if you don't, you'll be nodding going, "Yeah, okay. Preach. Yeah, that's the stuff there."
Derek Rickard (01:06:18):
Yeah. That's cool. That's cool.
Rob Collie (01:06:19):
I'd actually be legitimately interested to hear what you think about it.
Derek Rickard (01:06:22):
Sure. I wanted to ask you something, Rob. Can I ask you something?
Rob Collie (01:06:26):
Please.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:26):
Oh, let's turn the table?
Derek Rickard (01:06:28):
Tell me about P3. The thing is that whenever you and I do talk, which isn't that often, it's usually about something that's going on with P3. So tell me what's been happening for the last two years because that's, I think, the last time I talked to you and I unfortunately, I'm not on your website all the time, keeping up on updates.
Rob Collie (01:06:45):
Well, we're not really blogging that much anymore either, you wouldn't necessarily notice a whole lot. We've finally changed our name, we finally dropped Power Pivot Pro completely.
Derek Rickard (01:06:55):
P3 Adaptive.
Rob Collie (01:06:56):
P3 Adaptive.
Derek Rickard (01:06:57):
Yeah. When did that happen?
Rob Collie (01:06:58):
Gosh, just a couple of weeks ago.
Derek Rickard (01:06:59):
Oh, okay. Very recent.
Rob Collie (01:07:00):
Yeah. Very, very recent.
Derek Rickard (01:07:02):
I saw in the dot-coms of your emails and I'm like, "Oh, what is that?" But I'm like, "It makes sense."
Rob Collie (01:07:07):
Yeah. It was just one of those changes you had to make sooner or later and it's never a fun time to make it, we've been waiting on it forever. I would say that a lot has happened since you and I really last caught up. Really, the mission hasn't changed. The mission has always been, "Let's follow this train of thought wherever it leads us." And the train of thought has been, "Let's go build scalable consulting operation that is dedicated to getting the most out of the new tools and the new methods." Most importantly, the new pace that the tools enable.
Rob Collie (01:07:43):
The new pace isn't actually good for the traditional consulting business model. It's terrible for the traditional consulting business model. It's great for the customers.
Derek Rickard (01:07:54):
Yeah. Because that's cheaper and faster.
Rob Collie (01:07:56):
But the industry has relied on the projects being whales. And so it was like this stubborn belief that it could be done. And that goes hand in hand with an underestimation of how difficult it actually was. And so I was laughing with Wayne Winston and his wife who's also a professor, Vivian Winston at the Business School, and she said she worked with a lot of startups and I said, "Oh yeah, I see all those startups stories they tell you about there's someone with a really good idea, but they eventually hit a wall with it in terms of making it reality and how for years I would read those stories and go, 'Oh, those stories are about someone else, they're not about me.'"
Derek Rickard (01:08:41):
You fool. It was all about you.
Rob Collie (01:08:44):
And it turns out three years ago I found out that it was about me and that there was something missing, which is like a really disciplined approach to process, and software and human and all kinds of innovation. It's gone from being one of those things that used to strike me as boring and like, "Yeah, that's the person who's holding the clipboard." And I'm still not good at it. I'm still not the one that you would assign to be good at it. But the thing is, I have developed a tremendous respect and actually even an interest and a fascination with it.
Rob Collie (01:09:13):
It's like in 2007 Excel, one of the things that was up for grabs to work on was you could be the program manager who was going to redesign the printing experience in Excel. And I was like, "Boring. I want nothing to do with that." I didn't end up working on it and someone else did. And by the time they were done with it, I was like, "Oh, actually that was a very fascinating problem. That was a lot of really interesting, valuable stuff to be done there." And it's just like that same thing for me, the ability to scale and have a strong business model while at the same time delivering what can be delivered for clients at maximum speed, I really do believe that we have cracked that riddle now.
Derek Rickard (01:09:59):
Nice. Good job.
Rob Collie (01:10:02):
And it's a difficult thing. It's like a moat behind us.
Derek Rickard (01:10:05):
And Source of Share was a similar thing, hardly a competitor, but similar in the structure of like, we're not interested in even software license, agreements, partnerships, any of that stuff, we just want to help you out and we will do it for a low budget. Obviously, we're paying ourselves, I'm just saying, there's no reason to spend six, seven figures on BI, there's definitely no reason to do that.
Rob Collie (01:10:29):
And have it suck as well. How about spend less, get it done faster and better. Does that sound good? Does that sound like a good idea? Are you all right with that? We can make it take longer if you want, but we don't.
Derek Rickard (01:10:42):
If you want, you can blow through a bunch of budget, but probably you don't need to.
Rob Collie (01:10:46):
And our effective hourly rate isn't the cheapest on the planet, but it the project cost is so low because of the pace.
Derek Rickard (01:10:53):
That's actually something that was very often asked like, "Why do you charge so much?" And actually, I don't think I charge so much, but people ask that still. Back when I would be talking to someone who just got my name offline somewhere, they're like, "Oh, you're going to have to come do contract work for us." I'm like, "No, I'm not going to do contract work, I'm a consultant. So that does mean something different." I know it's maybe tiny, but I'm like, "It's different because you guys will do the work, I'll just teach your team or whatever. And yeah, it's expensive, but we work faster, it won't be as much in the end." That's cool. That's good that you cracked that nut. You got some help there?
Rob Collie (01:11:26):
Oh yeah. So you can go back and listen to one of the other episodes of the show, Kellan Danielson.
Derek Rickard (01:11:33):
Mr. Kellan.
Rob Collie (01:11:34):
Yeah. He has been the architect, not the only person doing it, certainly more than any other single person, Kellan is responsible for that second phase of cracking this riddle.
Derek Rickard (01:11:46):
That's awesome. That's great. And he's your president, right?
Rob Collie (01:11:48):
Yeah.
Derek Rickard (01:11:49):
That's great. It's good to know when to handoff that portion of the business. Source to Share has always been a boutique style BI shop. We're not scaling or anything like that, but if that were the case, I know I wouldn't be the person to do that part. To do the business development part, to do the sales part, any of that stuff. It's not me, and in Source to Share, I probably will forever be disconnected from that. It'll just be a word of mouth thing. If for some reason someone wants to link in for sales and do whatever, that's fine, but it's been doing okay. But I really jazzed about P3 Adaptive, cracking that code and actually giving these traditional BI shops a run for their money because they're ripping people off.
Rob Collie (01:12:32):
I agree. And we plan to be very large.
Derek Rickard (01:12:35):
Cool, cool.
Rob Collie (01:12:36):
The world needs it and it's that old fashioned notion of like, "Hey, let's make our money in the world by making the world better."
Derek Rickard (01:12:43):
Yeah. That's great. I know, crazy.
Rob Collie (01:12:47):
Or really, we should just be like monetizing people's data. That's what we should be doing, we should just be tracking their every move.
Derek Rickard (01:12:54):
Sell to someone, sell it.
Rob Collie (01:12:55):
That's the move these days. No one's going to become a billionaire doing what we do.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:00):
Nobody gets rich by helping others, come on.
Rob Collie (01:13:03):
No, it's not going to happen.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:05):
Think of it. Think of it. The Rothschild, the Gettys.
Rob Collie (01:13:08):
People all become philanthropists at some point in their lives. That's the reputation laundering phase of their lives.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:15):
Later in life, like Rockefeller later. Let me just rule everybody first.
Rob Collie (01:13:21):
Yeah. And I'm keeping one eye on Gates. I'm watching you, Bill.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:29):
So you guys had asked the question earlier that didn't get answered. It was, where does data come from? You guys were talking about where data-
Rob Collie (01:13:36):
Where does data just in general come from?
Thomas LaRock (01:13:38):
I'm going to tell you, it's when two text files love each other very much and they decide that maybe it's time to become a spreadsheet. And then from there, there's a lot of the different ways that they could end up being Excel or Access, or just buried on the SharePoint page, and it just evolves from there. That's where data comes from.
Rob Collie (01:13:59):
That's how it all starts.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:00):
That's how it all starts.
Derek Rickard (01:14:01):
Rob, I had this weird connection with Kellan. Do you know where Kellen learned Power Pivot?
Rob Collie (01:14:06):
Columbia.
Derek Rickard (01:14:07):
Yes. Not college, Columbia. Do you know who he learned that from?
Rob Collie (01:14:11):
No.
Derek Rickard (01:14:11):
Well, actually, I don't know if he can take full credit, but I'm assuming that he at least showed him Power Pivot, which is this guy named Mark Bennett. Mark is a good friend of mine. He was actually the person who was hired to be my replacement at Homax, which is weird. So he was hired to be my replacement at Homax, I showed him Power Pivot. He worked for Columbia, showed Kellan Power Pivot. And now he's the president of your company. That's fun.
Rob Collie (01:14:35):
Damn. That's the circle of life right there.
Derek Rickard (01:14:37):
Well, you taught me Power Pivot.
Rob Collie (01:14:38):
I know.
Derek Rickard (01:14:39):
This all come back.
Rob Collie (01:14:39):
It's like, "How does this happen?" And now, Kellan is better at all this stuff than I am.
Derek Rickard (01:14:43):
Hell yeah. That's the best.
Rob Collie (01:14:45):
We made three right turns and never crossed our original path. How did we do that? That's great. It's like extra-spacial geometry here.
Derek Rickard (01:14:53):
Yeah. That's a wonderful.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:54):
Non-Newtonian.
Rob Collie (01:14:55):
Derek, this was long overdue. I'm so glad we did this. It's been a pleasure reconnecting with you.
Derek Rickard (01:15:00):
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Announcer (01:15:02):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Ken Puls is the epitome of an Excel and Power BI guru by being an incredible guide, a teacher, and "Remover of Darkness" of the secrets of these tools. Born from a fusion of Accounting and IT, Ken's mastery of Excel includes VBA programming and Power Pivot modeling, data cleansing and reshaping, and financial modeling. We highly encourage you to check out Ken's website, Excelguru.ca, if you desire to be enlightened in the ways of Excel and Power BI. References on this episode: Download Rob's Reference Card Episode Timeline: * 7:20 - Mr. Excel is in the house, Ken's Origin story is born from an IT and Accounting fusion, and Rob reveals some little known Excel facts * 33:50 - Who will protect us from the Alien Invasion? And some scenarios that may start a fight! * 1:10:45 - Microsoft 365 VS The Perpetual Version, Are Array Formulas still widely used?, and Lambda Functions * 1:25:35 - Ken shares something that ties Rob to a cool add-in called Monkey Tools
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends. Today's guest is the famous Ken Puls. I've known Ken for over a decade through the Microsoft MVP program, but you might know him as the author of the Power Query book, M is for (Data) Monkey. Or as the driving force behind the website, excelguru.ca. It's Canada A. Or perhaps most recently as the creator of the Monkey Tools add-on for Power Pivot and Power Query.
Rob Collie (00:00:28):
A conversation that I had with Ken about 10 years ago was really the critical turning point in me deciding to write my first book. If you want to know what those conversations were, I won't spoil them, you'll just have to listen to the episode.
Rob Collie (00:00:42):
So, Ken has been a part of the landscape and certainly a part of my life and career for a very long time. If this happens to be your first time hearing of Ken, for some reason, here's the best way to describe him. Imagine the land of Power BI and the land of Excel where those two landscapes meet. There's this hazy, like demilitarized zone between the two, and Ken stalks those hills like an apex predator. Of course, whenever I describe him in terms like those, he's always really quick to remind me, "Hey, I'm actually pretty nice." And he is. He's the nicest apex predator you'll ever meet.
Rob Collie (00:01:15):
As a program note, Tom couldn't make it to this recording session, so we just subbed in Bill Jelen. What do you think about that? I took advantage of the rare opportunity of having Ken and Bill in the same place to try to resolve a very important question, which is, if the fate of the Earth hung in the balance, who would we nominate as our Excel champion to represent us? I also confronted Ken with the unwinnable Kobayashi Maru scenario of you can only pick one, Power Query or DAX. Forced him into an answer. Did he get it right? Did he get it wrong? You'll decide. So, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:50):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please.
Announcer (00:01:57):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:18):
Welcome to the show, Ken Puls. The long awaited Ken Puls, how are you today?
Ken Puls (00:02:23):
I'm doing well, Rob. How are you?
Rob Collie (00:02:25):
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, I said this a few times with a few different guests, but it had been so obvious if we'd kick this podcast off and like just gone stampeding to Ken in the first few weeks. We had to kind of play it cool a little bit. Kind of like circle our way around like, "Oh, right. Yeah, Ken." As opposed to the obvious choice like from the very beginning. So, I appreciate you being patient with us. I'm sure you've been sitting there going, "When is the phone going to ring? When is it going to ring, damn it?"
Ken Puls (00:02:54):
You flatter me, Rob, honestly. I don't know what to say to that. Thanks for having me. I'm not offended. It's all good. It's all good.
Rob Collie (00:03:03):
You're an MVP, Microsoft MVP. Are you still an Excel MVP? Or if you come to the dark side and gone data platform, Power BI MVP?
Ken Puls (00:03:12):
I've been from Excel to the dark side and back again. Although they don't call us Excel anymore. Now they call us Office. I know, It's shocking. So, I was an Excel MVP, I guess, for 10 straight years, and then flipped out to Data Platform after that and spent some time there. And now, I'm back in the Office apps and services, I think, is the technology platform officially that looks after Excel and all the other Office apps. I still play in both spaces, though, obviously. And I've always actually kind of found it confusing that Excel and Power BI aren't in the same category, but it is what it is.
Rob Collie (00:03:46):
I know, man. Different P&Ls, different vice president P&Ls. That's why your MVP program is so fractured.
Ken Puls (00:03:53):
Yeah. No, I figured that out. But yeah, it is odd. The softwares play well together. You kind of think there would be a close relationship there.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
Hey, look, the software playing well together is also a relatively new thing. So, we'll take that. If we had to choose between the MVP programs making sense and the software making sense, I trust the software. I mean, it doesn't mean that the software always makes sense. It's not round to 100%.
Ken Puls (00:04:20):
Yeah, I think we've worked with software long enough, we know that there's a heck of a lot of places where it doesn't make sense.
Rob Collie (00:04:25):
There was an MVP summit recently, right?
Ken Puls (00:04:27):
It was.
Rob Collie (00:04:27):
It was conducted virtually this year.
Ken Puls (00:04:28):
It was indeed. Yeah. All over Teams. Lots of video, lots of chat.
Rob Collie (00:04:31):
I wonder if that's harder or easier on the Microsoft program managers and engineers who are presenting to you. I'm familiar with the murderers' row, that is a room full of Excel MVPS.
Ken Puls (00:04:46):
You think so highly of us, man. The murderers' row. Wow.
Rob Collie (00:04:51):
Yeah. And you know who's usually sitting in the front murderers' row?
Ken Puls (00:04:55):
I can't, actually. No, I sit in the back.
Rob Collie (00:04:59):
Oh, you sit in the back.
Ken Puls (00:04:59):
I sit in the back. It's easier to heckle from the back.
Rob Collie (00:05:02):
Yeah. Well, you got that voice, man. Your voice, when you picked out your voice at the store, you found it on the not effing around dial. It is a powerful voice.
Ken Puls (00:05:12):
It had to do a lot of things. I mean, yelling at Microsoft PMs is only one of the jobs that it's had. I mean, I was a soccer coach for a few years and trying to get 12, 11 year old girls and break through all of their communication that's going on in the field. You got to have voice, man. It's important.
Rob Collie (00:05:26):
I think we determined that I was not on the Excel product team. I had left the Excel product team by the time you became an Excel MVP. I think we determined that through detailed forensic analysis, but I don't remember it that way. I remember it as if you were there the whole time, because apparently ...
Ken Puls (00:05:42):
You must have been in the next room over, right?
Rob Collie (00:05:45):
That's right. I do remember being there as an MVP later, and witnessing your criticisms of the product team's plans delivered in that ... I don't know. Can you say piercing and deep at the same time? It just kind of cuts through the room and it's like three times as devastating. And I'm just sitting there in the back of that room going, "Oh, yeah. Get them."
Rob Collie (00:06:09):
I think I kind of put myself in their shoes too. And so, I got traumatized a little bit by remote control my proxy. And that's how it sort of like retroactively worked into my head that you are always there.
Ken Puls (00:06:20):
For reference, Rob, my hope is not when I go and I'm giving feedback there that I'm traumatizing people. That's not the goal. It is actually trying to help make things better. I mean, I understand they all got really hard jobs and have to make difficult decisions. I totally get that. But at the same time, I mean, there's obviously some passion that goes into this stuff as well from my side and whatnot too.
Rob Collie (00:06:40):
I don't want to paint you as a villain. You are just fundamentally one of the nicest people I know. That is absolutely true.
Ken Puls (00:06:44):
Okay. Well, that's a lie.
Rob Collie (00:06:46):
Oh, come on. Okay, maybe it's a little bit of a fudge, but it's not. I mean, you're actually a really, really nice guy, like that is true. You just have a very crisp directness about not suffering foolishness that I think in that room in particular, that's like your moment in a way. It's fun to watch. I wish I could sit in as a fly on the wall.
Rob Collie (00:07:06):
But also, honestly Ken, I would expect that you probably find yourself less frequently in that position at those MVP summits these days. Maybe you do. I don't know. We were still turning a corner at Microsoft at the time that I'm talking about when I first got to know you from a lot of ideas for the product, starting out with the sentence, "Wouldn't it be cool if ..."
Rob Collie (00:07:29):
That sentence being uttered by someone who really didn't have a whole lot of experience in the business world using the tools. So, a lot of times, what sounded cool in the fires of Mount Redmond, wasn't really all that cool out in the real world. And oftentimes, those MVP summits was the first time that those ideas would be checked by that reality. And it's a valuable service provided.
Ken Puls (00:07:51):
Yeah. I mean, I think we saw a couple of things that did happen. I mean, I've been an MVP now for 15 years. I mean, we've seen an evolution in the program from the side that came from the MVPs and Microsoft together. I mean, we've grown a lot, I think, on both sides of the table.
Ken Puls (00:08:04):
My first MVP Summit, in retrospect, I've grown a lot since then, and I certainly wouldn't approach things the same way that I did back then. I mean, you get newly minted as an MVP, and you go walking in the door and you're thinking, "I mean, look, I use this program every day. These guys don't know what they're doing." And you try and get that, I guess, almost chipped out there and across.
Ken Puls (00:08:20):
At the time, the first summit that I was involved in was the first time that we were given a ribbon. It was 2007. So, we had a whole new user interface that we couldn't customize. And it was a painful time to be an Excel user, and certainly to be sort of biting on the developer side of things and whatnot.
Ken Puls (00:08:39):
I felt that at the time, it didn't seem from where I was. And this may or may not be true that a lot of the PMs actually had real world experience in working with the product. They were designing the product, but they weren't necessarily coming from the trenches.
Ken Puls (00:08:53):
When you fast forward to now, a lot of the PMs have spent time very much working in the business. I mean, that's sort of where they've been cutting their teeth before they actually get on the product team. The decisions that are made are not incubated outside of talking to people. We know that. We get asked all the time about what our ideas are, and we still hear, "Wouldn't it be cool if ..."
Ken Puls (00:09:11):
But it happens quite early in the process, and we get a lot of feedback. And the team is really open with us on a lot of designs. Honestly, I would never go back to what we had 15 years ago. I mean, this world is amazing now. The rapid pace of change that's happening, the evolution in the product. I mean, there's a lot of people that are on that team that I've known for a long time now that I just ...
Ken Puls (00:09:33):
I mean, obviously, they're fantastic people that really, really want to make this stuff work really well and are suffering under the same challenges that we all face. Resources versus time and all the rest of it. It's a cool place to be able to be and play around with, for sure. I think I kind of drifted a little bit of side on where that started.
Rob Collie (00:09:51):
That's exactly how we roll here on the Raw Data podcast. We get off to the side. That's what we do.
Ken Puls (00:09:58):
I love the way you break that on your monster truck voice there, Rob. That's just gorgeous.
Rob Collie (00:10:02):
That's how we roll. Bill, do you remember the first time you met Ken?
Bill Jelen (00:10:08):
Yeah. No, that was early back in the ... The summit is probably when we were in Seattle instead of Bellevue.
Ken Puls (00:10:15):
It's the last time Bill got to talk in a session.
Bill Jelen (00:10:18):
Yeah. Back then, there was this older fellow named Charlie who could bellow from the back of the room. And then all of a sudden Ken shows up, and now we have two of them. God forbid, if Ken and Charlie would ever not agree, it would be a very loud experience.
Rob Collie (00:10:37):
Yeah. And everyone caught in the middle.
Bill Jelen (00:10:39):
Yeah, right.
Ken Puls (00:10:41):
I think that only happened once, didn't it?
Bill Jelen (00:10:43):
I don't know. Yeah. I probably blocked it out. PTSD and all.
Rob Collie (00:10:45):
Yeah. They implemented safeguards after that. Yeah, it's what control rods are for.
Ken Puls (00:10:54):
Exactly. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:57):
You hear that, ladies and gentlemen? So, Tom LaRock couldn't make it today, but we're such a powerful organization here, this podcast, that when we go to the bench, we pull Bill Jelen off the bench.
Bill Jelen (00:11:08):
Thomas LaRock Jr.
Rob Collie (00:11:09):
It's like LeBron James going to the bench and Michael Jordan coming in. I mean, what are you going to do? That's the quality. That's the standard that we try to hold ourselves to here.
Rob Collie (00:11:17):
You mentioned, Ken, about the people on the team having a sort of a higher, at least a higher percentage of real world experience today versus back in the day. I was just talking to Carlos Otero, the other day on the Excel team. It's awesome, right? He was working on a finance team at Microsoft. He was in the finance function. It wasn't part of the product team at all.
Rob Collie (00:11:40):
This is, by the way, one of the places we would visit a lot. The Excel team would learn a disproportionate amount of our real world sort of exposure like customer visits were internal customer visits. It's really kind of a neat full circle that someone from that background. If you're building race cars, you need some race car drivers on the team.
Ken Puls (00:12:04):
Oh, absolutely. Carlos was working in finance. I mean, another guy that I think is important to call out is someone like a gentleman date. I mean, he was out working in the auditing sphere. I mean, he's writing his own add-ins to build a better formula bar for Excel and whatnot.
Ken Puls (00:12:18):
So, it's not just like Microsoft actually pulled people with experience from their internal teams and not a disservice to Microsoft, they're a huge company. And there's obviously a lot of practical work that goes inside that's not around software development. But being able to pull from industry as well I think is super important, because we all know that ... I mean, there's 700 different ways to do everything in Excel.
Ken Puls (00:12:40):
And getting that variety of exposure and different data points, I think, is super, super important for this. And more and more as time goes on, we see people that are being brought in and have that variety of experience. And they're taking on areas that they're passionate about. I think sometimes they change in something different for the sake of getting different, being fresh ideas, which is also important.
Ken Puls (00:13:00):
But the most important thing is that they're taking the real world experience, they're comparing it to what you have, and they listen. And that's the big part that I really value from this stuff is that they actually listen to us. Sometimes, I don't know how the heck they actually managed to do that, because the voices that we deliver it with are not always the friendliest and they're often very loud. And yet, they'll still take what we say and say, "Okay, let's explore that a little more. Cool." May not take your route, but at least they're paying attention and trying to get a different perspective, which is fantastic.
Rob Collie (00:13:30):
Part of me wants to say something like, "Amateurs. Dave, listen. That will be their undoing."
Ken Puls (00:13:38):
Well, there you say. I mean, I felt like back in the 2007, 2010 era, it was like, "Hey, guys, we have a beta for you. We can't change anything. It's already done." And that was the change. Whereas now, you get the, "Here, we've got something new for you. Oh, we don't like that." And guess what, it changes before it absolutely comes stock and whatever else. And I mean, that's just the new way that things have changed, which is awesome.
Rob Collie (00:13:59):
Yeah, an aircraft carrier doesn't turn on a dime, but we were starting to turn the wheel back then.
Ken Puls (00:14:05):
It's tough, though, right? I mean, it's a big ship. When you look at how complex the software is, and how many things it has to do for how many people balancing that with, "Let's ask people what they expect to happen, but we also have to innovate and come up with things that they never thought of." And that's the other side of it that where the heck did Power Pivot come from? It sure, didn't come from somebody coming in and saying, "I need this." I mean, that was something that was more, at least to me, was presented as, "Look at this really cool thing that we've done. What kind of impact do you think this will have on your life?" It's like, "Oh my god, where's this been all my life?" Power Query, same thing.
Rob Collie (00:14:36):
Yeah, we weren't asking for Power Query, were we?
Ken Puls (00:14:39):
My favorite stories I like to tell with Microsoft. I remember sitting down with Eric Patterson at one point and showing him a solution that I built in the real world. He asked me, he says, "Why don't use pivot tables to go and report all this stuff?" And I said, "Well, because I got to get my users to enter data in a format that's familiar to them, and that isn't conducive to a pivot table layout. So, I can't report it. I'm doing 180,000 unique formulas that are ridiculous amounts of lines long in order to get this thing to report." And I said, "If you guys could just give me some kind of a tool that would get this into an unpivoted format, that would be amazing.
Ken Puls (00:15:12):
And Eric looked at whoever he was with and he goes, "Geez, somebody should build a tool for Ken like that. That would be amazing." And what I didn't know is that I think it was before the next summit, they said, "Here, we want to show you this thing called Power Query." I'm like, "Oh, you jerks. You knew this was in process and you didn't tell me. That's just cruel."
Rob Collie (00:15:29):
That's payback.
Ken Puls (00:15:31):
Could be.
Rob Collie (00:15:32):
Those ugly things you said about the ribbon.
Ken Puls (00:15:36):
But again, that was where the things returning, right? I mean, today, I think that, that conversation would have been like, "Hey, listen, under NDA, we're building this thing. You can't talk about it, but this is an idea we'd like to explore some things and get your feedback." Where back then, it was more of a concern. We're not sure what we're allowed to tell you yet. That's where things have changed so drastically inside the MVP program with the trust levels that they've given us, which is game changing. Really close to that.
Rob Collie (00:16:00):
I want to circle back to something you said earlier, which is you kind of bounced back and forth. You went from Office MVP to Data Platform MVP, and back. There and back again, like Bilbo Baggins. What sort of triggered both of those moves?
Ken Puls (00:16:13):
What triggered the moves? The word category I was put into. In all honesty, what triggered the move is this. When I was playing with Excel originally, I was doing a lot of work with VBA, and blogging, and forum posts and whatnot.
Ken Puls (00:16:26):
When Power Pivot came out, I obviously was trying to get started with that and working through it. And certainly, I mean, no small credit to you on this, Rob. I mean, he helped me get over some of the pretty big hurdles along the way in that. And then Power Query also sort of came in. I think anybody who knows who I am knows that I pretty much dove into Power Query. It was more like a cannonball than a dive. I just went straight into it.
Rob Collie (00:16:48):
I didn't notice. I didn't notice any of that.
Ken Puls (00:16:50):
Yeah. No. Nobody noticed that. For me, I was playing around in the Power Excel stack very, very early. When Power BI came out, we tried it in v1, but that didn't work so well. But v2, when we finally got into a Power BI that sort of grown up to be what it was today, the original tool was basically just, "Hey, give me a visual layer on top of Power Query and Power Pivot."
Ken Puls (00:17:13):
I mean, I started playing around with blogging with these things go, and this is really cool. I mean, we've got these technologies and Power Query and Power Pivot. You can learn one, it works for another tool. So, you're learning for two products at the same time. This is really, really cool. So, I sort of started blogging about that, and everything that I was doing fit into both camps.
Ken Puls (00:17:30):
I'm not entirely sure why I was moved from Excel to Power BI. I think that to begin with, they were wrapping up and bringing in new MVPs into the Power BI product, and I was one of those who said, "Look, I mean, this guy is on board, we're going to crash to here."
Ken Puls (00:17:46):
But even in the time that I was a Power BI MVP, per se, I always kept one and a half feet in the Excel camp. I mean, Excel is where I grew up. It's the product that I absolutely love. I use Power BI not infrequently, but I use Excel. It's a very strange day if I don't have Excel open. I mean whether it's on my phone on the weekend or whatever else. I only open Excel on days that I didn't [lie 00:18:12].
Ken Puls (00:18:14):
That's why I ended up moving back into the Excel category after a while, because, honestly, I'm still more excited about the things that are happening inside the Excel world than in the Power BI world. Even though the Power BI world is cool and exciting on its own.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
I'm going to let you know a little behind the scenes secret in the dark, smoky corridors of Microsoft. There is a derivatives trading market on MVPs. And the rights to Ken Puls were sold by the Office team to the Power BI team for $1.5 million. And then the Power BI team said, "Oh, we're going to give them back."
Ken Puls (00:18:47):
I can accept that and everything else, but isn't the player supposed to get a portion of the transfer fee?
Bill Jelen (00:18:52):
Yeah, I would say you should get a cut of that, for sure.
Ken Puls (00:18:54):
Absolutely. If that's the case, listen, trade me every freaking month. That's all good. Just send me my cut.
Rob Collie (00:19:02):
Yeah, I don't think you understand the rules. That might work over in Europe. But here in the States ...
Ken Puls (00:19:13):
This is why I felt real football. The one with the round ball, you play with your feet, because that's the kind of rules that they follow there.
Rob Collie (00:19:20):
Oh, yeah. Well, even they, they've been infected by some very American style thinking lately.
Ken Puls (00:19:25):
Oh, haven't they though?
Rob Collie (00:19:25):
The Super League. I've never seen a sports league exist with that sort of a half life. It's just like, "Oh, the 12 biggest teams are leaving. Oh, wait, nevermind. No, we're not. We apologize."
Ken Puls (00:19:41):
I've been following that over the last couple days. It actually fascinates me though. I'm very curious to see what the fallout is longer term on this because it's not like this was a secret and it's not like the different soccer leagues and FIFA came out and said or hadn't said already. "We don't want this to happen." So, they go ahead and they do this anyway. And it's the fans that lost their mind, and suddenly that's what made all the clubs pull out. And I'm looking at it going, "Wow, this is interesting."
Ken Puls (00:20:06):
And I saw an interesting article yesterday from the perspective of someone in England who said, "This is absolutely the important thing needs to happen, because we need to take our game back." The history and the legacy of this game was actually built by the fans. The special part of it is that your pub team can end up rising all the way up to the Premier League, and it is now time for us to take control of our game back on other levels. I'm like, "Oh, wow. I wonder what they've touched off here."
Rob Collie (00:20:32):
Either way, in sort of one group of well-moneyed elites fighting with another group of well-moneyed elites, right? Either way, right now, as far as I understand it, the dream of the little pub team working its way up is a myth, because you've got all these billionaire owners just absolutely sinking gigantic sums of money into players. It's like getting the money out of the equation is difficult.
Ken Puls (00:20:55):
No, absolutely. I mean, I wouldn't expect that you're going to see a pub team that's going to work themselves off to the Premier League in five years or anything like that. There's players on the national team that were playing in a beer league not that many years ago, for England anyway.
Ken Puls (00:21:10):
So, it's not unheard of that people will rise in there. I mean, honestly, one of the things that I love about football is the ... Clarifying. I call it football, soccer for North Americans. But one of the things that I love about it is the promotion and relegation system.
Ken Puls (00:21:24):
And if you actually look around in English towns, you'll see that there's towns that have these big stadiums that really don't have a huge Premier League team anymore, because they've been able to actually rise and get the funds that they need in order to be able to build the infrastructure and the legacy that gets left behind when the team may go down a league or two or whatnot.
Ken Puls (00:21:41):
It's really interesting. I wish we had that in North America, although you'll never convince a North American sports team owner to give up their right to stay in the league they're in, I don't think. Too much money at stake, right?
Rob Collie (00:21:51):
Yeah. I paid a billion dollars for my franchise.
Ken Puls (00:21:55):
Yeah, I don't want to risk it.
Rob Collie (00:21:56):
I plan to keep it. Yeah.
Ken Puls (00:21:57):
I get that too, but how cool is it if you see your home team suddenly get promoted up an entire tier? That's just awesome.
Rob Collie (00:22:05):
And just as exciting as the team that's going the other way, making the spot for you is the titan that has fallen on a rough patch. Everyone likes that too, don't they?
Ken Puls (00:22:16):
I mean, it depends on whether or not you're supporter of that team, I guess.
Rob Collie (00:22:20):
I suppose. Yeah. The other sort of standard element that we haven't really covered yet, we got to get to this, is the origin story. Where does Ken Puls come from? You probably didn't emerge from the womb, writing Excel add-ins. What's your professional career arc? Where does it all begin?
Ken Puls (00:22:40):
Classically, I'm trained as an account. Although, I have friends now that joke that I don't do accounting anymore, so maybe I shouldn't be, but I very much a Chartered Professional Accountant in Canada. I've been recognized as a fellow by my accounting organization. So, theoretically, I know something about accounting.
Ken Puls (00:22:55):
The interesting part with my Excel and Power BI journey is that the whole sort of reason that I learned to use these tools to the degree I did is because there were tools that I needed to do my job. And if you asked me what I do today, I'd tell you that I'm an Excel Pro. And that's not something that a lot of people would tell you. They'd tell you, "I'm an accountant." It's a very, very different way of looking at things.
Ken Puls (00:23:14):
I've always had a passion for technology ever since I was growing up. I mean, my first programming that I ever did was on the Commodore 64. I got a book and wrote every line of code to make a Star Wars game. I don't know that I learned a darn thing in the process of copying pages and pages of code. But then we did some coding and basic in high school and Pascal and things like that.
Ken Puls (00:23:37):
But where things kind of became, I guess, important for me is when I started doing my accounting training, and we had to do certain work and whatever else. I mean, every time I had the opportunity, I would just reach to a spreadsheet because it was just logical for me to be able to fill it out. I was doing my school assignments on spreadsheets. I worked in public practice for while. I went into industry.
Ken Puls (00:23:58):
I ended up eventually taking the job as the accounting supervisor and system administrator at the Fairwinds Community Resort on Vancouver Island. So, we were a golf course. We had a three food and beverage facilities, beer and wine store, hotel, property development, marina, we had all kinds of things going on. The job I took was to look after the IT and work on the accounting department, looking over the accounting team.
Rob Collie (00:24:18):
Slowdown. See that right there, what they did? Not Ken. You didn't sneak anything in, but they sneaked it in. Accounting and IT.
Ken Puls (00:24:26):
There is no sneaking there.
Rob Collie (00:24:28):
All in one. Quick sentence.
Ken Puls (00:24:32):
But it wasn't unusual, right? The previous job I had, I actually worked at, believe it or not, an orchid greenhouse as the accountant and IT support role there too. I mean, this was really common, particularly in Canada anyway. I don't know about the US, but it was really common in there that accounting and IT got put into the same kind of bucket.
Ken Puls (00:24:49):
I mean, I joke with this when somebody says like, "Well, how the heck did you get into your IT experience?" I said, "Well, I was the person that didn't step back fast enough." I wasn't. I was the guy who stepped forward because I love computers.
Rob Collie (00:25:00):
I'm Spartacus. Yeah.
Ken Puls (00:25:04):
For me, when somebody comes back and goes, "Do you know anything about Windows NT 4?" "No, but I'll learn. What the hell. Why not?" When I went to Fairwinds, I'm looking after a very fragmented network and I'm looking after the accounting department, and we ended up doing a lot of work with Excel to do our work to tie different things together, because in those days, nothing was integrated.
Ken Puls (00:25:26):
I mean, we had a network at the hotel, we had a network at the golf course, a network at administration. None of it was tied together, it was all tied together with people in spreadsheets, that's what it was. Every system was tied together that way. And then we got this offer from our head office where they said, "Look, we know that you're doing a lot of work on this. We're going to get somebody to build you a macro, so that all you have to do is click a button."
Ken Puls (00:25:44):
And it actually came up because I told them that when they upgraded us to Office 97, our keyboard shortcut is broken. They said, "Okay, send us the file." Or our macro broke. They said, "Send us the file." So, I emailed them the file, and they phoned me up, they said, "How did you trigger this macro?" I said, "Well, you press alt control shift, down arrow, control C, X number, whatever else." And they're like, "Dude, that's not a macro." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Like, "You've memorized the Lotus transition keyboard shortcuts for 75 commands to do your macro." I'm like, "Yeah." They're like, "We'll build you a macro." I'm like, "Okay."
Ken Puls (00:26:18):
So, they built me a macro in VBA, which was awesome, because then you could click a button, and it just did everything. I was like, "Sweet." And then the person that wrote it left the organization, so who got to maintain it? Me. So, I'm like, "Okay, cool." So, I started playing around with this stuff, and tinkering a little bit with VBA and whatnot. And I was like, "This is interesting. I'm enjoying this." So, I started playing around and recording some macros, found a forum, got an answer that you can actually start writing your own code. You don't have to record everything.
Ken Puls (00:26:45):
And then one day, our head office came to us and said, "Look, we decided you need a staff cut. You got to cut 33% of your staff out by Monday morning." This was Friday. "And we're going to give you more work to do, tighten your reporting deadlines, and you get no budget to hire anybody. So, figure it out."
Rob Collie (00:26:59):
A few things in there that I want to dig into. First of all, circling back to the IT and accounting thing. You said it happens a lot in Canada. It happens a lot everywhere in my experience. Maybe not at the enterprise level, but it certainly happens in the SMB space.
Rob Collie (00:27:15):
I think the reasons why it happens, why these two get bundled so frequently. The reasons why it happens are not good reasons. The reality there is that very often, it's just like two things that the rest of the business is just like, "Oh my god, I don't want to think about that. It's arcane. We know that it's a cost of doing business, and we want nothing to do with it. We don't really value it, but we can't go without it. Just make it all go away in this one corner." There's a lot of that attitude.
Ken Puls (00:27:47):
It hurts me that you lump in the accounting with the, "We don't really value it. We don't understand it, but we got to have it."
Rob Collie (00:27:54):
Yeah. Well, am I speaking the truth?
Ken Puls (00:27:59):
I'm not going to accept or deny that.
Rob Collie (00:27:59):
I see. Okay. I'm not saying that's the right thing. I'm just saying that, that's a very common sort of brutish ... I mean brute-ish, not brood. Brutish attitude towards these things. It's not a smart way to view the world, but it's still a very common way to view the world, unfortunately.
Rob Collie (00:28:16):
At the same time, though, lumping these two things together ends up working out in a lot of cases because first of all, those are the waters in which can pose coalesces, right? That's the primordial goo where someone like can actually spontaneously self-organizes, or better off for it. And I've known so many people now over the years. Nothing remotely. Like exactly the same story, but very similar stories. And some amazing things have happened as a result. These end up being sort of an accidental, great pairing. Second thing I wanted to say, though, or actually ask for Ken Puls. Which came first, VBA macros or VLOOKUP?
Ken Puls (00:28:57):
VLOOKUP.
Rob Collie (00:29:01):
Okay.
Ken Puls (00:29:01):
Absolutely. Actually, honestly, HLOOKUP, which is just weird. Who the hell starts with HLOOKUP over VLOOKUP? That's bizarre.
Rob Collie (00:29:08):
I don't know. It must be something Canadian.
Ken Puls (00:29:10):
Yeah. Maybe it is. Bill, you seem like you wanted to say something to that.
Bill Jelen (00:29:16):
Yeah, I know. That's the first. I haven't heard someone who started with HLOOKUP.
Ken Puls (00:29:20):
All I can say is our data was screwed up, but ain't that the way? So, I started with lookup functions. I'll say before I started programming, I knew a working knowledge with Excel. But honestly, I didn't know enough to be programming. There's no way that somebody should have let me into the Visual Basic Editor at that point in time, certainly not start writing code.
Ken Puls (00:29:38):
And yet, when head office came back and said, "Look, we're going to cut all your staff and we need you to keep on doing things." Basically, what happened is I went into my boss. I said, "Look, Jim." I said, "I think I have a route that we might be able to leverage to get through this. I've been experimenting with these macros, and I think that this might be the way that we can actually do it. If you'll just give me time to sit down and really focus on learning this language, I think that I'll be able to automate this stuff so that we can automate a lot of the work we were doing, and hopefully don't feel a huge amount of the brunt of this over the longer term."
Ken Puls (00:30:05):
And my boss, Jim, was mentor of mine, fantastic guy. Actually, he works for me today, which is really cool. He said, "Look, Ken, I trust you. I'm not sure what other way we're going to go with this. Let's give it a go. Let's see what happens." And he gave me license to go and actually explore that.
Ken Puls (00:30:20):
I would say for the next year, I basically lived inside the Visual Basic Editor. I was learning to code, I was recording, I was understanding, I was taking a lot of things out of forums, asking a lot of questions in forums to try and get my practices better, and understanding what I was doing with this stuff. And within a year, we had actually automated every single position that we had, had to let go. And that was a huge, huge thing.
Ken Puls (00:30:44):
I mean, for me, that's really what kicked off my passion for Excel was the fact that I no longer worked with my computer, my computer worked for me. And that was a very, very different experience that we had. And if it weren't for that ... Honestly, that move by head office cutting our staff changed the entire trajectory of my life, 100%.
Rob Collie (00:31:05):
Isn't that weird?
Ken Puls (00:31:06):
Yeah, I know, which means that obviously, head office coming in and telling us to cut our stuff was the right thing to do, even though it sure didn't feel like it at the time.
Rob Collie (00:31:17):
For me, I don't know if I've ever told you to review this. Macros came before VLOOKUP. In fact, for a while, for a number of years before I ever worked on the Excel team, I kind of viewed the Excel grid is just like a place to store values and manipulate them with macros.
Rob Collie (00:31:35):
My first fantasy football spreadsheet that sort of changed my life was 100% VBA. There weren't any formulas anywhere in the damn thing. I was even doing the basic arithmetic of like what the score should be. I believe, in VBA, I wasn't even using, which is just unconscionable to me today. Like looking back, I'll be like, "What was I doing?" I do the vast majority of that with formulas today instead.
Rob Collie (00:31:57):
Here's the really funny story that, again, I'm pretty sure I haven't told you this, is that actually my second job at Microsoft was as a test engineer on the Windows Installer. Darwin is the codename. MSI, I was a test engineer on that. And the test lead on that project had decided, before I was ever hired, that all of the automated testing, all of the automated tests that we wrote on that team were going to be written in VBA against the Darwin Windows Installer object model. And we were just going to use the Excel environment as the place where we wrote all of our test code.
Rob Collie (00:32:34):
We would just load Excel, flip over into the Visual Basic Editor, add the references to something had nothing to do with Excel whatsoever. And our spreadsheets, which had nothing in them other than macros, were the test suite. And can you imagine how confusing this was for me fresh out of college? I had no idea that Excel had this in it. It was just so discombobulating. "Why are we using Excel? Is there some important relationship between Excel and this Windows Installer?" It was just some crazy decision.
Ken Puls (00:33:05):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Microsoft own Visual Studio or something?
Rob Collie (00:33:09):
Yeah, I think the test lead was just really comfortable with VBA in Excel.
Ken Puls (00:33:14):
But isn't that the funny part? When you go and you look at solutions today that we run into around the world, and it's like, "Why are you using Excel for this?" Because it's the tool I know best, and it's the Swiss Army knife that will do anything. I see stuff like that all the time. I mean, lord knows, I built a few solutions that probably shouldn't have been in Excel, and yet, why not? It's easy.
Rob Collie (00:33:33):
Well, this brings me to one of the sort of the handful of things that I actually plan to do here, which is I have a couple of fights that I want to pick and see what happens. Here's the first one, Bill, and you're involved, so pay attention.
Ken Puls (00:33:44):
Got it.
Rob Collie (00:33:45):
So, for a number of years, I've told people that if the aliens came down from space and said, "Earthlings, nominate your champion, your Excel champion to come forth and do battle with our Excel champion with the fate of humanity in the balance." And it's going to be like a decathlon style Excel event. It comes down to the two of you.
Ken Puls (00:34:07):
No. No, no, no, no.
Rob Collie (00:34:08):
And hold on. And I choose Ken. Ken is our champion. As far as I'm concerned, he's the one I want getting in that flying saucer to save the human race in an Excel decathlon against the alien invaders.
Ken Puls (00:34:23):
God, we are so screwed.
Rob Collie (00:34:24):
That's what I want you to say. I want my champion to say that. I want my champion to say, "I'm not worthy." Because the one that says, "Oh, yeah, I'm worthy." That one is going to get asked kicked. We know how it goes. Bill is in a completely different category. We need like a logarithmic scale here, like the Richter scale. Maybe I'm an eight and Bill is a 9.8 and Ken is a 10.
Rob Collie (00:34:46):
Bill, if it was going to be like a novelty competition, like make Excel, do something completely unexpected that you just did not ever think Excel could do. If I learned those are the rules, then we're putting Bill up there. But Ken, it just blows me away. You're just a heavy duty add-on author, like embrace the managed code, the C#, you're the full stack. Bill, I was hoping to get some friction here, but you're like already saying, "No, don't pick me. Don't pick me."
Bill Jelen (00:35:12):
I wouldn't pick either. I wouldn't pick anyone. I wouldn't pick any of us.
Rob Collie (00:35:14):
Who would you pick?
Bill Jelen (00:35:15):
Some random person that I don't know who actually uses Excel 80 to 120 hours a week. I'll just start walking up and down Wall Street.
Rob Collie (00:35:22):
This is a good contingency to be prepared for. You don't want to be scrambling, because I'm not going to give you a week to find your champion. They're going to need to know right now. So, we need to know this name. In the meantime, I'm pencil and cannon.
Bill Jelen (00:35:35):
All right.
Ken Puls (00:35:36):
Well, that's terrifying. I'm flattered, Rob. But honestly, I mean, I know that there's so much stuff that I don't know. The good thing for me is that I know who to call when I run into those kinds of things, so I would not claim to be the world's champion on that stuff, though. That's way too much freaking pressure.
Rob Collie (00:35:50):
But it's a decathlon, Ken.
Ken Puls (00:35:52):
Oh, okay.
Rob Collie (00:35:53):
If you're 90th percentile at everything, that means your 99th percentile overall.
Ken Puls (00:35:58):
I don't consider myself 90th percentile in all these things either.
Rob Collie (00:36:01):
Well, okay. So, humility.
Ken Puls (00:36:04):
Too much to know.
Rob Collie (00:36:05):
All right, we're going to edit that out. We're going to edit that out, and we're going to have Ken say, "Yes, that is correct. I am the champion. [crosstalk 00:36:12]."
Ken Puls (00:36:11):
I don't think we're going to have that footage.
Rob Collie (00:36:15):
Ladies and gentlemen, don't listen to Ken. He's our guy. All right. I'm not very good at picking fights apparently. So here, let me up the ante a little bit and say, all right, here we go. Ken, you can only have one style of pivot table forever. Compact access or tabular?
Ken Puls (00:36:32):
Tabular.
Bill Jelen (00:36:32):
Tabular. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:36:33):
Jesus.
Ken Puls (00:36:34):
Look, Rob, the decision that you made to put in compact was just the wrong one, man.
Bill Jelen (00:36:39):
It was. And Howie agrees with us on that.
Rob Collie (00:36:41):
Howie agrees?
Bill Jelen (00:36:42):
Yes.
Ken Puls (00:36:42):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:36:44):
I don't know. There seems to be a little bit of a common thread between Bill, Ken and Howie, right? You're all just too smart. You need the mouth breather impression of tables. That's the standard. The person that you put it in front of runs in fear, doesn't understand what it means or like goes, "Oh, this is so pretty, so beautiful." We didn't do it for you. You could say we did it for us, but ...
Ken Puls (00:37:11):
It gave me pretty useless. Yeah, I get it.
Bill Jelen (00:37:13):
You forced it upon Ken. You didn't give him any way to change the defaults.
Ken Puls (00:37:19):
That's not true. I could write some code.
Bill Jelen (00:37:20):
You will use this and you will love it. Or click eight clicks every time you create a pivot table.
Ken Puls (00:37:25):
On the other hand, there was an insurgence that Bill led that actually got us the ability to change those defaults, so we appreciate that.
Bill Jelen (00:37:30):
Six years. Six [crosstalk 00:37:32] undo year.
Rob Collie (00:37:35):
Does the ability to change the default exist in Mac Excel?
Ken Puls (00:37:38):
Good question. Don't know. Don't use Mac Excel.
Rob Collie (00:37:41):
Self-respecting. Excel MVPs typically don't wield the Mac. I understand. I was on a call yesterday on a meeting yesterday with someone who's also been a guest on the show, Brad Miller. He's one of our first guests. And he was working with a pivot table on screen. I was laughing about the filter drop-down on the row axis of the pivot table. And I'm like, "Yeah, and you see, you got this drop-down." And then like, "Oh, no, you don't have the drop-down to choose to field. What's going on there?" I'm like, "Oh, you're in tabular mode."
Rob Collie (00:38:08):
And he goes, "Yeah, I'm always in tabular mode, my pivot tables." And he goes, "You can't even set it as a different default." And I'm thinking to myself, "I'm pretty sure that they added that setting recently. But oh, you're on a Mac." So, I just held my tongue. So, on this particular topic, it sounds like the aliens would have us. Cannon Bill were like, "I don't know if you can even change it on a Mac."
Ken Puls (00:38:30):
Yeah. If the Mac is part of the decathlon, we're done, dude.
Rob Collie (00:38:33):
The question is like, "Are these like Silicon Valley aliens?" Because then it's a Mac. Then we're screwed, aren't we?
Ken Puls (00:38:41):
It depends on whether or not it's running Parallels and running real Excel on the background.
Rob Collie (00:38:45):
There's always that hope, isn't there?
Ken Puls (00:38:46):
There is.
Rob Collie (00:38:46):
Shall we continue the pick a fight conversation?
Ken Puls (00:38:50):
Yeah, go for it.
Bill Jelen (00:38:51):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:38:52):
All right. You can only have M or DAX.
Ken Puls (00:38:55):
Wow. That's a tricky, isn't it? Why do I have to pick? Because they're both different, and they both do different things.
Rob Collie (00:39:02):
I know.
Ken Puls (00:39:04):
I love me some M. I'll reshape my data if I have to, to get into the part where all I got to do is use a sum or an average. If I got to pick, it's going to have to be M.
Rob Collie (00:39:12):
Wrong.
Ken Puls (00:39:12):
Well, I knew you were going to say that, but that's okay.
Rob Collie (00:39:19):
Yeah. No, I respect that you wrestled with it.
Ken Puls (00:39:23):
They do different things. I mean, there's calculations that I could never do in M. Or at least if I did, would be extremely difficult, and DAX would eat them for breakfast, right? I mean, if I got to go and hit refresh and wait three minutes to get my answer out of everything, instead of just clicking a slicer and seeing it, no, that would not be acceptable. So, no, they have different pieces. I believe that conversation to be fair, Rob, is about as useful as INDEX, MATCH versus VLOOKUP.
Rob Collie (00:39:47):
At least INDEX, MATCh and VLOOKUP kind of do the same thing. I completely agree with you that this is a completely contrived scenario. These things absolutely do different things, but I just wanted to know if you had to go without one or the other. It's still an interesting conversation. We can talk, yes?
Ken Puls (00:40:03):
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have a philosophy when I'm working with my data that basically, if you reshape your data with Power Query that the DAX becomes a heck of a lot easier, and that's why I would actually pick M over DAX in that scenario is because I can spend a lot of time reshaping things to get it to where I just got to sum it. I don't even have a DAX to do a sum.
Rob Collie (00:40:19):
You know that my stance on this is that with DAX, you get more leverage, more organizational leverage than you do with M. Now, the two of them together ...
Ken Puls (00:40:29):
It's the holy grail.
Rob Collie (00:40:30):
That's what you should do.
Ken Puls (00:40:32):
Yes, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:40:32):
You also know, we tend to be very careful in terms of the order in which we introduce things to people, because we introduce M and Power Query to people as their first sort of piece of the power stack. We have a really hard time reeling them back in to get their attention for data modeling and DAX. It's like, "Oh my god, I'm going to go wallpaper my house with M."
Ken Puls (00:40:52):
Well, it's kind of interesting on this one, right? If you're asking me what language should you teach people to actually be able to write from scratch, I would say DAX, not M. The reason why I say M first is because M is the underlying thing that's going on when you're clicking buttons in Power Query. I'd prefer that people honestly if ... I think Power Query has done a phenomenal job of this is that the better they build the user interface, no one should ever have to learn ever.
Rob Collie (00:41:17):
I agree. I was talking about this briefly with Sid and Miguel when they were on that I don't think their user interface is done. There are a lot more buttons that were owed. We have a sort of background conversation going with them about, "Here's some buttons that we think you should add." Because writing the M for this is hard. Remove duplicates, control which dupes you keep, every time I need to do that, I'm like, "I'm back on your blog, Ken."
Ken Puls (00:41:42):
Wait, does my blog have an answer for that?
Rob Collie (00:41:45):
Yeah.
Ken Puls (00:41:45):
Oh, okay. Dude, I forgotten some of the stuff I've written.
Rob Collie (00:41:48):
Of course. People used to tell me all the time about something I had written. I'm like, "Oh, that sounds kind of like me, but maybe yeah."
Ken Puls (00:41:55):
I had one lady asked me in a conference one day how I would do something. I said, "Oh, geez. I haven't really thought about that. I think I would do this." And then I got back to my room that night and I had a comment on the blog post that I wrote almost exactly a year before, which was almost verbatim what she asked me. And I'm like, "That was only a year ago there I wrote that?" And I had totally forgotten about it. I mean you're doing something right when you search for something and you find an article in Google and you look and go, "Wow, that's really ... Wait, I wrote that?" Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:42:21):
It happens.
Bill Jelen (00:42:24):
That happens all the time. Like we knew it two years ago when we wrote it.
Ken Puls (00:42:27):
I mean, I write it and put it on my blog so that I can Google it later and find out what the heck I wrote, but it's always amusing when you find something you look at and go, "I forgot I wrote that. And how the heck did I ever come up with that solution?"
Rob Collie (00:42:40):
Yeah. Sometimes I think there's almost like nothing smarter than a previous version of me, in a way. I got to look back and go, "Oh, of course, at the same time, there's also nothing dumber than a previous version of me." You look back and go, "Oh, I can't believe I did that."
Rob Collie (00:42:52):
When you stumble on a technical solution, or novel solution, or a creative solution to a problem, a difficult problem that you were working on, when you were really in the zone. At one point, you're like really locked in. And you kind of just randomly stumble across it later when you're not deep in that focus. It is really impressive what the brain can do when it really locks in relative to on a day to day basis.
Ken Puls (00:43:15):
I agree with you 100% on that. And then the other side is when you get into the part where ... I mean, I work and I battle against a problem for six months on and off and on and whatever else. And then finally, one day, you trip on something and you get it done. And then you look at after and go, "Why the heck was I so stupid? Why did this take six months to figure this out?" It was right there the whole time, and yet, you can't see it if you're looking. Everything is easy when you know how, but until you do, you're kind of stuck.
Rob Collie (00:43:41):
That's true. I had to name a completely new product today. I've now had to go through the naming game so many times and fail at it. And this time, I finally felt like I could do it. Confidently, I knew which things to avoid, which things to ... What I'm trying to do with naming a product. What are you doing there? What are you even trying to achieve? What can you hope to achieve?
Rob Collie (00:44:05):
And like end to end, I'd come up with a name that I liked. Quickly focus grouped it, registered the URL. This all happened in the space of about, I don't know, 90 minutes today. I turned around and said to my wife, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this would have been six months before." And I still wouldn't have liked the outcome of that six months, nearly as much as I like the outcome of this 90 minutes. There's something to growth, isn't there? Like repetition and learning over time.
Ken Puls (00:44:32):
Write a blog post, man, so you remember for next time.
Rob Collie (00:44:35):
No, I'm going to keep it up in my head.
Ken Puls (00:44:36):
Because that's a reliable source.
Rob Collie (00:44:38):
Oh, so reliable. I just tweeted earlier today that Alt+Tab has become sort of an extension of my compromised short-term memory. I find myself in the browser going, "Wait a second, why am I in the browser? What was I doing?" And I go, "Oh, I know. I'll just hit Alt+Tab. It's just magic." I don't even know what app is going to come up when I do Alt+Tab. It's like, "Oh, look, there's where I was. That's what I was doing. That's why I was in the browser. Okay." It's like popping the undo on your brain.
Ken Puls (00:45:13):
I might have to steal that because I get lost in my browser many times.
Rob Collie (00:45:16):
That's like, "Why was I here?" If only that worked when you're upstairs to your house, and you go down to the first floor, you go down the stairs, you're like, "Why am I down here?" I wish I could Alt+Tab at that moment and then I would know.
Rob Collie (00:45:32):
I even tried to Alt+Tab between paragraphs, like when I'm writing an email. Whatever that last thought was, that's what Alt+Tab represents to me mentally. And it's really disappointing when Alt+Tab doesn't just magically take me to the last thing if it happened to be in the same window that I was ... Anyway, that's me and my complicated relationship with Alt+Tab.
Rob Collie (00:45:51):
Something that ties the three of us together is the book, the original DAX formulas for Power Pivot that evolved into Power Pivot and Power BI. Bill is the publisher, the author, and Ken was the inspiration. You originally told me I should write a book, because you had said that you weren't quite getting what DAX was about yet.
Ken Puls (00:46:12):
I was struggling with it. It wasn't that I didn't realize that there was potential in there, I was struggling with the syntax and being able to translate from the goal to action. I could not wrap my head around the way that the language is put together, which seems odd to me today.
Rob Collie (00:46:29):
In hindsight, yeah. And it seemed odd to me at the time when you told me that, because you were not the first person to tell me I should write a book. You were just the first person I listened to.
Ken Puls (00:46:40):
I appreciate that.
Rob Collie (00:46:42):
Others had said, "You should write a book." And I'm like, "Nah, whatever." When you and I had that conversation, I remember it vividly. Not like word for word, but I remember the sentiment of it where you were saying to me like, "Rob this Power Pivot thing, DAX, whatever, is going to be a really big deal for us. It's going to really open some amazing doors for us, but I just can't crack through this invisible wall on it." And that's what I went, "Oh."
Rob Collie (00:47:09):
seriously, hearing you specifically say that really opened my eyes, because I already knew you to be someone that this didn't happen to. This is not how I knew you. I knew you as the guy that had a degree of almost mastery. I know that you aren't going to like that word, but almost mastery of so many different things. And for you to be struggling with that, I'm like ... I actually understood it. I was like, "Oh, so there is something I can do for the world."
Ken Puls (00:47:36):
I appreciate you have such a huge amount of respect for the skills that I've built up and everything else. I mean, what you don't see is you don't see the journey that I go through in order to learn those skills. One of the reasons that I know everything that I know today is because I was too cheap to pay for someone else's software, so I decided I was going to figure out how to build it on my own, and I was going to go through the struggle in order to make that happen.
Ken Puls (00:47:54):
I mean, I have not had training in any computer programming that I've ever done outside of my stuff in college. Well, I took one Excel class in my entire life and I knew more than the instructor. By that point, I was bored out of my mind.
Ken Puls (00:48:07):
What you don't see is that the way that I learn is by taking zero documentation and throwing myself at the problem to figure out where I'm going to go. And I remember, if this sort of explains to the level of what I do, because I know we've had some conversations, and if you don't get to it, I will on one particular part around calculate. I already know you're going to go there, but I remember when I was first starting to get started with VB.NET, and I showed up at the Extreme VB Forum.
Ken Puls (00:48:32):
And one of my buddies, Mike, he says to me afterwards, he says, "This was amazing." He says, "You walk in." We're like, "Who the heck is this guy? We've never seen him in the forum." And he says, "I'm a complete beginner, and yet, I want to do this." And he said, "And the thing that you asked for was a 12 on a scale of one to 10 in difficulty." And he goes, "And that's what you want to start with as a beginner?" And I'm like, "Yeah, dude, I had goals. I wanted to get somewhere." He's like, "Yeah, but you need to go through the steps one to seven before you try to jump at that last part." I'm like, "Nobody got time for that shit. I got to get stuff done."
Ken Puls (00:49:05):
And that was I think part of the struggle that I had with DAX is that the stuff that I needed to do was complicated stuff, at least to a beginner. And yet, I kind of needed to learn stuff about what an iterator function does. Well, what an iterator function is, to start with. What is filter context? What are these things mean? I had no background for that. I mean, I'm sitting there trying to write calculates and some X statements and whatever else, not even really understanding that at the time, you don't actually sum A5 to D10 anymore, you sum everything and then you take away the stuff you don't want. It was a total mind shift for what I was doing, and it wasn't obvious. And this is still true today. There was no good tools for stepping through the thing to actually see what was going wrong.
Rob Collie (00:49:50):
That's true. No, evaluate formula.
Ken Puls (00:49:54):
Exactly. I've never been good with array formulas because while I get the concept I find it very ... I'm not a good chess player. I find it very difficult to visualize things without actually seeing it in front of me. So, being able to break things down step by step is what I needed to do, and that just wasn't there in DAX. It's getting closer now today with dynamic arrays, at least being able to spill to the grid. But boy, oh, boy, it was a tough thing. And you think I'm super smart. I'm no smarter than the average bear, but I don't think I'm dumb. But man, oh man, this was just kicking me, and it was driving me nuts.
Rob Collie (00:50:26):
Well, I've always given you like the subconscious credit for being an array formula master. That shows you how extensive your reputation. It carries some momentum.
Ken Puls (00:50:37):
Like I said, man, that's why you're placing your hopes of humanity on me as a tenant. Yeah, I know.
Rob Collie (00:50:41):
Yeah, I think you're fired.
Ken Puls (00:50:43):
That's what I'm telling you.
Rob Collie (00:50:43):
Yeah, I think you're fired. Array formulas are definitely going to come up with the aliens. You mentioned stepping through array formulas is always a really dissatisfying experience, isn't it? You start the first step. The second step is like, "Okay, maybe this is going to work." And then you step one more time, and it's like, "Ta-dah, here's your answer."
Ken Puls (00:51:05):
No. More like, "And it didn't work." It's like, "Okay. Well, why didn't it work?" Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:51:09):
Stepping through an array formula kind of reminds me of the South Park meme. Step one, steal underpants. Step two, dot-dot-dot. Step three, profit. That's kind of how debugging an array formula works. Good luck. Part of what you said is also how I learned. Our recent guest, Ryan Bergstrom is a read the manual type. And I was like, "What? What?"
Ken Puls (00:51:33):
What's a manual?
Rob Collie (00:51:35):
I don't understand. I learned DAX by exactly the way that you did. It turns out, there really wasn't a manual at the time. I had an excuse for not reading it, but if there had been one, I probably would have let it sit on my desk like ballast. But I had two advantages over you in my life at the time when I was doing that.
Rob Collie (00:51:52):
Number one is that I didn't have necessarily a business case for it yet. I was just screwing around with football stats. I could sort of naturally progress my curve of complexity rather than try to do the most incredibly advanced thing first, which often happens in business. Your first need doesn't care about the tech learning curve. It doesn't.
Ken Puls (00:52:13):
If it was easy, they wouldn't ask you.
Rob Collie (00:52:15):
So, I had that nice learning curve experience. I could build up over time. Plus, that's the only thing I was doing. That's the only thing I was doing was screwing around with Power Pivot and blogging about it. I can absolutely sympathize with that. So then I wrote the book.
Ken Puls (00:52:29):
I would say you had one more advantage in that case is that you actually worked with the engineers on that team. So, if you got into a place where you were really stuck, you had a phone a friend that you could use. Whether you did or not is different.
Rob Collie (00:52:41):
No, I did not have that advantage. I did not call them. I guess it was kind of a pride thing that I didn't want to ask them, but I was learning remote. I wasn't really part of the team anymore. And the DAX engine really had not come out yet when I left Redmond. I was already living in Cleveland when the DAX language was first available in builds.
Rob Collie (00:53:01):
I had, had such an in-person style. If I wanted to ask a question to someone, I would usually go to their office physically. I felt like an outcast. They didn't do anything to make me feel like an outcast. I just felt like that. And so, I kind of, in a way, sequestered myself. I did learn as an outsider, even though I still had the Microsoft address, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, maybe others would have played that advantage better.
Ken Puls (00:53:25):
This starts to explain your comment years ago on your blog about how all data pros live on islands. Now I get it. You just, man, oh man, just find your own island.
Rob Collie (00:53:33):
I just wanted to live the authentic experience of being on an island. I had my volleyball, I painted it, called it Wilson. I wrote the book. And the way I tell the story is I grabbed the first copy off the assembly line, because I was there as it was being printed. I was following it. Thanks to Bill's connections, I was following it along the assembly line. I grabbed that first hot, still warm cookie from the oven copy of the book, and I run it outside the building and I hand it off to a courier who's just been waiting with the engine idling to take it to the FedEx place and get it to you overnight in Canada, and you read it, you said. You read it cover to cover immediately and said, "I still don't get it."
Ken Puls (00:54:21):
Yeah, that happened.
Rob Collie (00:54:22):
It did. It did happen. Yep.
Ken Puls (00:54:24):
Except for the cover to cover part.
Rob Collie (00:54:26):
Yeah. I'm starting to get that impression.
Ken Puls (00:54:31):
Yeah. I've read some of it. As you identified a few years later, I have a specific reading style when it comes to reading technical books as well.
Rob Collie (00:54:40):
That's right. Are you comfortable with me telling people what I think your reading style is?
Ken Puls (00:54:43):
Go for it. I'll correct you if you're wrong, but I don't think I have to.
Rob Collie (00:54:43):
Okay. Here's the only thing that's a fact. The fact is that I have told thousands of people the following story. That's a fact. So, thousands of people believe this, is that Ken Puls, which I didn't at the time really. First of all, Ken doesn't read books.
Ken Puls (00:55:03):
That's actually not true. Ken does read books, he just tends to read them in a slightly specific fashion.
Rob Collie (00:55:11):
All right. Okay. So, let me talk about what that fashion is. Ken is so smart, ladies and gentlemen, that when he reads a technical book, at the top of the page, he already knows what the bottom of the page is going to say. He just scans to the end of that page to get that payoff, that confirmation, that dopamine shot of like, "Oh, look at that. I was right again." And then he flips to the next page. And it just so happens that every now and then, the middle of the page doesn't say what he thinks is going to say, and he kind of goes right past it.
Ken Puls (00:55:41):
All right. So, I'm going to change that narrative just a little bit. I'm a skimmer when it comes to reading. I wouldn't say that I open up and read the first sentence and know what the bottom is going to say, but I will say is that if there's five paragraphs on the page, I usually read about five sentences of that page, because I hit the topic sentences of these things and [crosstalk 00:55:57] whatnot.
Rob Collie (00:55:56):
He hits the beats.
Ken Puls (00:55:58):
Absolutely, the thing that I'm doing is that I will typically skim the paragraphs until I find the section that is actually important, and I will try and read that section through in a little bit more detail. Sometimes I read it five, six, seven times because I just don't get it. Because, guess what, I probably should have read the pages that lead up to it, but that happens. I mean, it's just the way that I sort of go through things. It's actually one of the reasons why, for me personally, I actually cannot learn by video, because I can't skim. It doesn't work that way.
Rob Collie (00:56:25):
Yeah, I get that.
Ken Puls (00:56:26):
So, what I ran into with the book is ... I mean, this is where we're going with this one is at one point in time, I was working through a calculate measure. The first version of the book that Rob put out had a really, really cool little flowchart in it that explained how calculate worked and modified filter context.
Ken Puls (00:56:42):
So, I decided to be very helpful in my MVP style feedback granting personality that I am, and I decided to write Rob an email to tell him how his flowchart didn't work. But one of the things about sending in bug reports and whatever else to Microsoft, you're got to build a good one. What you really have to do is you have to be very, very specific. You got to be going through and you got to make sure that you hit all the technical points, you look through the process, you take it from start to finish.
Ken Puls (00:57:08):
This is probably the first time with DAX that are really sat down and really analyze this to the depths of the degree that I did, and said, "Look, Rob, the way that you said this, this is what should happen. If your filter context is this and this and this, which is what I have, this would happen. And then when you take this step here, what it would do is it should rip ... Oh, damn. Nevermind, Rob, the chart is absolutely fantastic. But I figured, hey, I'm already through this three quarters of a page email. I'll send it to you anyway. Good job, keep up the good work." And I hit send.
Ken Puls (00:57:37):
Dude, I've taught so many people after that flowchart today. I mean, it's a fantastic thing. But the reality for me is that I never really sat down and actually looked at it in the degree that I had. And once I did, I mean, this is what I'll actually teach people today is it absolutely works. Feel free to send me an email to prove how it doesn't providing that you go through this amount of work along the way. But the big keys are you have to know exactly what fields you're working with, and that was part of the issue that I ran into is that I was actually looking at a field for one table, and I was thinking that it was working off of a related one, which it wasn't. So, I was picking up the wrong things.
Rob Collie (00:58:09):
I didn't remember it that way. Your version of it, which I believe to be the truth. I'm not saying it's your version. It's the truth. That's better than I remembered. The way you describe that, when I really got down to it in its primitive level, really detailed. There it is. That's really the nature of DAX is that you have to get to that level. You have to get to that really primitive level with it. And almost like turn off some of the smarter parts of your brain. It's almost like a smart suppression game that you have to become one with DAX.
Ken Puls (00:58:42):
It is. Part of the issue that we can get into with DAX too is that we can try and get too smart with things like renaming fields or whatever else that maybe now you're looking at things and you're going, "Okay. Well, I know that this is related field from this other table over here." So, I'll just assume that, that's part of this. It's like, "What did you actually write?"
Ken Puls (00:59:00):
Because what we always know with coding and with computers is that your computer will always do exactly what you told it to. whether or not you want it to? Well, that's a totally different question. But in DAX, it really, really came down to that. Well, what did you actually tell it to do? Because it's doing that. It's just that might not have been what you expected or wanted to see.
Rob Collie (00:59:19):
So, Bill, in the dust of this event, we were trying to figure out some sort of extra that you could get if you bought the book from Bill's website versus Amazon. What is it going to be? And Bill just goes, "How about that chart that Ken was going on about, the flowchart?" I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that's exactly what we should do. We should do that." It's so weird to me that even though I sort of had this light bulb moment through that process with you, I didn't connect it with, "Oh, that should be the separate laminated handout card that we make." It was so obvious that it should have been, right?
Ken Puls (00:59:55):
Absolutely. I mean, that is DAX, right?
Rob Collie (00:59:58):
Yeah. Bill is just sitting there on the sidelines just sort of casually going, "I don't know. I'm just a simple caveman publisher, but maybe we should do the flowchart."
Bill Jelen (01:00:08):
It was a four-page flowchart, right? Because all the tip cards we've done, laminated tip cards were just front and back. I was like, "Oh, man. This got four pages here."
Rob Collie (01:00:16):
Never ask me to do anything with brevity. It's since then expanded to eight pages, it's four front and back. But that one page has remained relatively unchanged throughout the 10 plus years we've been talking about all of this. We did add a second piece to it, which was a set of exercises of recognizing what your filter context is, like showing you a bunch of different pivot tables, and circling a cell and saying, "Hey, what's this one's coordinates? What's this one's coordinates?" And the answers are on there. That one kind of goes hand in hand with the original, but that was like ... Really, in terms of that flowchart, that's really the only innovation we've ever come up with over the years that was helpful. That was really necessary to add to that.
Ken Puls (01:00:56):
I think that was a massive, massive thing. And I use a variant of that when I'm teaching my courses today that goes through and talks about how to ... Basically, it's how to understand it. I mean, once you understand that, you can actually work out what is going on in the calculation of any measure along the way.
Ken Puls (01:01:11):
I mean, I suppose if you get into iterators, you got some extra pieces that add to that complexity or whatnot. But truly, I mean, for most beginners, once they can actually wrap their head around a calculate and how that is actually playing around with things, that unlocks the mysteriousness that is DAX. Absolutely critical.
Rob Collie (01:01:28):
Some of my most satisfying moments as an instructor is when someone asked me an off script question. I just write a measure really fast and it doesn't do what I expect. And I'm sitting there, and I'm actually like deer in the headlights in front of a number of people going like, "Oh, why isn't this working?" Oftentimes, someone in the class will figure it out before me by doing exactly what I told them to do. But even I, over time, it's like I get back to taking those shortcuts.
Ken Puls (01:01:58):
I laugh. I was building up some material for something and was going through and trying to build something up and whatnot. I came into this thing, and I'm like ... I was working with all to remove filter context in something, but I removed the filter context from a specific field, and it didn't change the result. And I'm going, "What the hell is going on with this thing?"
Ken Puls (01:02:18):
After struggling with it for a bit, I ended up going back and I'm like, "Okay, I got to go back to this thing." I went back to the drawing board, I'm like, "Damn it." I went and removed the filter context from the year field, but I had a timeline that was filtering the date field. They're two different fields, right? The fact that the timeline had a different filter context that passed through, but I couldn't see it, because it wasn't part of the thing. And yet, it takes that going back, once again, I knew exactly what it was supposed to be doing. Except that it was doing exactly what I told it to.
Ken Puls (01:02:45):
Until you actually break it down to that, as you say, right back to the nuts and bolts there to figure out what's going on and really carefully identify all the pieces, you cannot debug the thing. I mean, it's like an accounting. Every now and then, when we're trying to figure something out, we go back to the old classic T account that they taught you in bookkeeping back in 101 just to follow the flow. Sometimes you have to do it. You always feel like you're going back to elementary when you do it, but sometimes that's here, it just works.
Rob Collie (01:03:09):
So today or tomorrow, let's say, you realize you've got to go build a DAX power data model for something. And yeah, you're going to be using Power Query to shape the data to feed to us. You're going to be using the two tried and true world beater engines here. You'll be using the M engine, you'll be using the DAX engine, whatever you want to call them, they go by a million different names.
Ken Puls (01:03:31):
Okay. So, it's another day that ends in why. Okay, got it. Go on.
Rob Collie (01:03:34):
That's right. It's one of those days. Are you going to reach for Excel? Or are you going to reach for Power BI Desktop?
Ken Puls (01:03:38):
I reach for Excel, every time.
Rob Collie (01:03:40):
Still the Power Pivot guy over the ...
Ken Puls (01:03:43):
Yeah, absolutely. And I have some reasons for why I do that. It actually comes down to that I believe that Excel and Power BI both has some very strong overlaps in what they do. And yet, I still feel that each tool has some advantages over the other in certain cases. I love Excel in that I get all of the advantages of the tabular structure via Power Pivot and whatnot.
Ken Puls (01:04:03):
Granted I don't have all of the newer formulas, and that hasn't really impacted my life in a massive way for the analysis that I've had to do. If I did need something that wasn't in the tin with Power Pivot that was in Power BI, I would move to Power BI. But the reality is that working inside Excel with Power Query and Power Pivot, I get pretty much everything I need from the DAX engine, I can make it work. And I also get the ability of all of the unstructured analysis tools that Excel has.
Ken Puls (01:04:28):
I can dump stuff into the grid, I can flip things to OLAP formulas, I can drill deep into the data that I want, I can summarize it, report it, I can add new things, I can reshape it, I can do whatever I need to do in Excel. That's a lot easier to do than Power BI. Power BI is much more rigid because the data model is always in a tabular format. Always, always, always. Where Excel doesn't have to be.
Ken Puls (01:04:47):
Having said that, once I've gone through and I've done my analysis, I find it easier to prove out that the data is good using Excel because of the flexibility that the tool sets. And once I've got that the data is good, what I would suggest to most people is that you can go and use the publish to Power BI. So, when you're actually going to build up your reports that you're going to be sharing with people, you should be sharing through Power BI, because it actually has a security layer that can prevent it from leaking out across the organization in different areas.
Ken Puls (01:05:13):
The visual story in Power BI is so much sexier than what we have in Excel. I mean, there's just no question in that regard at all. There are definitely things that exist in Power BI that we can't do in Excel, things like row-level security, that would cause me to go to Power BI Desktop right off the bat, because I can't do it in Excel. But if I can do it in Excel, I'll start there first. And then I'll publish. I mean, I have models that I use every day, where the source is an Excel workbook. It's published to Power BI, we feed our different reports and analyze an Excel through that. But the actual underlying data model structure is and probably always will be an Excel workbook.
Rob Collie (01:05:51):
Interesting. So, I don't think that I've ever published a Power Pivot Excel workbook.
Ken Puls (01:05:56):
Dude, you're missing out.
Rob Collie (01:05:57):
To the Power BI service.
Ken Puls (01:05:58):
Why not?
Rob Collie (01:06:00):
I think I just figured I just didn't trust them to do a good job of it.
Ken Puls (01:06:04):
What's interesting is when you build your model with Power Query and Power Pivot, and when you go and you hit file, export. Essentially, what it does is it takes those. I mean, the way that I like to visualize it is basically it's the same thing as you go on over to Power BI and saying import into Power BI Desktop. It takes those components, and it basically just publishes them to the server.
Ken Puls (01:06:21):
You can schedule the refresh, I do that. It works as long as everything is going. The part that would frustrate you, if you're more into the DAX side is that you don't have some of the new DAX capabilities that exist in version 1200 that are in Power BI.
Rob Collie (01:06:37):
Yeah, I don't really care. Whenever I'm talking to Microsoft engineers and the product team or whatever, they're always more bothered by the Power Pivot subset of DAX, like it not being current, then I think matters. I'm always like, "Are you kidding? I don't care." Don't really aren't that many things that I care about. I eventually have just folded. I don't start an Excel anymore. I now only start in Power BI.
Ken Puls (01:07:00):
Yeah. I'm too freaking stubborn.
Rob Collie (01:07:02):
I can't believe that I'm the one saying that. I think it's not so much I didn't trust them to do a good job of it. It's more like I just didn't want any sort of extra uncertainty in my system. I don't want to be jumping at shadows like the ghosts in the machine going like, "Is that because I did it in Excel?"
Rob Collie (01:07:19):
And I end up going down this long route of trying to figure out whether that's the case or not, when it wasn't. I just didn't want that extra degree of variable in my story. Look, it's a Power BI service, it's probably expecting me to start with the pivot's file, so I'm just going to conform.
Ken Puls (01:07:35):
I don't always do a good job of conforming to things. Call it a strength or weakness, I don't know. But maybe it's just that my love for Excel runs so deep that I don't want to give it up to Power BI in that place. As I say, I firmly believe that there are areas where you have to start in Power BI. If the features don't exist in Excel, you really don't have a choice.
Ken Puls (01:07:50):
But at the end of the day, if you don't care about the new DAX functionality from my experience, and I'm not going to say that there aren't some niggles along the way somewhere that are going to cause some problems. But in my experience, that publish to Power BI works pretty darn seamlessly. So far as if all you care about is manual refresh, simple, publish Power BI, done. It's just the same as refreshing in Power BI Desktop and republishing over the old one.
Ken Puls (01:08:14):
If you care about scheduling and refresh, well, then you got to worry about as your data source cloud hosted, or do you have a data gateway in place. But you can schedule the refresh there, because it basically just turns it into the Power BI dataset anyway. And then you're building your reports online instead of in desktop. I don't think there's too much stuff that's in Power BI Desktop for reporting stuff that's not in Power BI online, at least certainly not that I'm looking for.
Rob Collie (01:08:39):
Yeah, I think. They've done a pretty good job of parity there.
Ken Puls (01:08:41):
They really have.
Rob Collie (01:08:43):
Do you have variables in the latest versions of Excel in DAX?
Ken Puls (01:08:45):
As in VAR?
Rob Collie (01:08:47):
VAR, VAR function, whatever.
Ken Puls (01:08:48):
Yes, you can.
Rob Collie (01:08:49):
Of all the new stuff, that's the newish. [crosstalk 01:08:51].
Ken Puls (01:08:52):
That was the big one for me. That makes working with calendar patterns the heck of a lot easier. For me, I'm not building houses out of DAX. I mean, there's no question there. So, for me, I haven't missed the functionality of the new components there. I mean, there's new things with calculated tables, and there's other new wonderful things that are out there in the DAX language in the newer versions, but they haven't impacted my life. I haven't tried to chase them because I haven't really needed to. I mean, I joke with my kid. I mean, I'm an accountant. My math skills are sum. And then I subtract one thing from another too to get a variance. My math is pretty easy in my world.
Rob Collie (01:09:29):
Help me out here guys. How do I get cannon Bill arguing? How can I throw raw meat in the shark pool?
Ken Puls (01:09:36):
I don't know. I'd say Bill and I agree on most things, I think.
Bill Jelen (01:09:39):
Yeah, we've been around too long. Microsoft has warned us down. The spiky edges that we had when we showed up, they've been dulled off.
Rob Collie (01:09:49):
Good.
Ken Puls (01:09:53):
The assimilation is complete.
Rob Collie (01:09:55):
Yes, it is all going according to plan. Seriously, you're interchangeable in your opinions.
Bill Jelen (01:10:02):
More of a go to. Yeah, I don't have to go to that Ken has.
Rob Collie (01:10:05):
So Bill, I feel like we've wasted 100 minutes on your time.
Bill Jelen (01:10:10):
No. This is fine. Because when I was on your show, Thomas LaRock said three sentences. And so I'm trying to live up to that. I think it's perfect. I'm just playing Thomas LaRock today.
Rob Collie (01:10:19):
I'm trying to get Tom up to like 15 sentences. I don't want him to talk too much, because I got a lot to say. And then there's the guest. The poor guest needs to talk to, right? But the early Tom LaRock, we've been pulling him up a bit. We've been getting him up into higher percentages.
Bill Jelen (01:10:33):
So, Ken, what's your opinion on Microsoft 365 versus the perpetual version?
Ken Puls (01:10:37):
I can bite into that one. I'm 100% on the M 365 component. Back to the the managing of IT, I mean, I used to give up probably about two days of my work life for managing 50 licenses for our company in order to try and figure out which of the 950 license combinations we needed for people in order to be properly licensed for Office and Windows client access licenses. I don't know if you remember this, Rob, but Windows DVD writer licenses so that we could get the proper Excel Power Pivot SKU and other things like that. I mean, it was a waste of time.
Ken Puls (01:11:08):
Once we moved to the M 365 or Office 365 at that point in time, the job became a lot easier, because it was just basically like, "Look, let's put a named user on there." Nice and simple. It was taken care of. So, that was the first part. We were no longer playing the game of, "Is there going to be a new version within three years? We pay Software Assurance, should we not? Oh, I'm sorry, you can't upgrade your Office Suite this year, because it's going to be a big capital expense versus with Office 365." Boom, we're now into a regular sort of cash flow, it just goes into operating expenses, made life a lot easier.
Ken Puls (01:11:41):
So, for us in the corporate world, there's a couple of components. Number one is to cut down my time on licensing. The second part was it actually meant that I could keep my software current because there wasn't these massive lumps coming through cash flow that we had to justify as capital costs every three years. Instead, it was just an operating cost, it was always there.
Ken Puls (01:11:59):
The part that really made that work, though, was when it first came out, and we first got the Office 365 license, it was always a numbers game about the cost. That was all it was, because we still weren't getting regular monthly updates. Once they moved into the whole regular monthly update scenario, at that point that just blew the whole doors off the thing. And now, to me, it's not even about cost anymore. It's about what's going on with the functions and the features and whatever else.
Ken Puls (01:12:23):
We see something new come through virtually every month, even if it's just bug fixes and small things that maybe aren't super visible. But the fact that we're seeing things like dynamic arrays coming through. We're seeing new formulas that are coming in. We're seeing updates to Power Pivot and ... Sorry, not Power Pivot. I shouldn't say that one, but Power Query. We need to update the Power Pivot, that would be nice. But updates the Power Query, new connectors and different things there. And the occasional button being moved around, which drives me crazy. But hey, whatever.
Ken Puls (01:12:50):
At the end of the day, the product is getting better on a regular basis, and people are sort of clamoring for these components, and asking for them in the real world. As an IT guy, what I love is when I install Office, it just updates, I never have to have IT go and visit the desktop. The cost per month for the most important software tool you use on a regular basis is pretty small. It's easier, it's more up to date. There's just so many things about it.
Ken Puls (01:13:18):
Going back to perpetual man, I would never ever, ever go there. It drives me crazy. I mean, I joke with people and they say, "Which of the old versions did you buy? Oh, well, I bought this one here when 2019 came out. I just bought 2019." I'm like, "Oh, way to go on your purchase of obsolete software." They're like, "But it's brand new." I'm like, "No, it's not. It's six months old before it even came out of the box."
Bill Jelen (01:13:39):
There should be a warning label when they buy that. You are buying obsolete software that will never ... I don't understand why they still sell it. That's the thing that confuses me.
Ken Puls (01:13:48):
IT, that's why.
Rob Collie (01:13:49):
I think there's an argument can be made that the single most important and impactful piece of technology to come out of Microsoft in the last decade is the Office Click-to-Run infrastructure that makes all that possible. In the old days, when it was all MSI driven install, the last thing you would have ever wanted in your entire life would have been Microsoft upgrading your version of Office overnight without your input, because it's going to screw your life up. It's going to downgrade or upgrade some DLL somewhere that is going to cause you nightmares, and Click-to-Run bypasses all of that.
Rob Collie (01:14:32):
Think about it, like what you just said, I completely get that, but it's not a cost thing anymore. It's the fact that we get new stuff all the time like new valuable stuff that actually helps us. That new functionality, that would have been the thing that wrecked you in the old days. You don't want a perpetual model that's a subscription that's delivering a new MSI install over and over and over again. Oh my gosh. The economic value created for the entire world by Click-to-Run is just jaw dropping.
Ken Puls (01:15:01):
I would agree. And honestly, Rob, that's not something I ever would have thought of. Because, I mean, it's just part of the component that sort of happens underneath the scenes. It's not sexy, it's not appealing or whatever. In managing, whatever, like 30, 50 desktops or whatever else, and you sit there and you go, "Oh, damn, we got to do an upgrade of Office. Okay, so we got to go on. We got to come up with tools to deploy this thing out across all these desktops, or we have to physically go and visit each desktop with the media and install it." And then hope it works, it doesn't blow up a DLL or whatever as you're saying.
Ken Puls (01:15:37):
And granted, obviously, influence to somewhat pandemic wise, I've got a small team right now of about five people. We installed the Office client on their software once. They're all working remotely, because of the COVID situation. Office is just updating on their machine every time there's a new update that comes out.
Ken Puls (01:15:56):
It's magical. I don't have to visit their desktops. I know that they're on the most recent and latest and greatest features. I mean, we run on the beta channel, and all of my team do as well, because we're insane and we like to be seeing the new stuff and talk about and all the rest of it. But it's a phenomenal delivery mechanism. And the new stuff that comes through it is just absolutely incredible.
Ken Puls (01:16:18):
It always just makes me die a little inside when I do the survey in a class and ask people like, "So, what version did you buy and whatnot?" And you get the, "Yeah, I bought Office 2019." I'm like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. You should have got Office 365." But I hear the other side of this too where you get IT departments that are very concerned about the fact that Microsoft is updating their software.
Ken Puls (01:16:38):
It's like, "Well, you don't have any issue with your antivirus, guys, updating their engines, so why here?" I think it goes to a lot of worlds where there's a very heavy reliance on compatibility testing, and worried that we're going to blow things up. But to my mind, there's avenues for mitigating that too.
Ken Puls (01:16:59):
I mean we have a different channel in Office that holds back the releases for about a year. We've got a current channel that gives the current monthly release. We've got an insider channel. And I think there's actually one between those two as well.
Ken Puls (01:17:11):
So, my sort of thing is, look, find your people who are your biggest power users in your organization, the people that really put Excel to the test, put them on the beta channel. Just make sure that they know that there are features in office to report bugs back and get the bugs that are hitting your organization reported back to Microsoft right away, but they've got to be your power users who are fault tolerant.
Ken Puls (01:17:31):
And then you say, "Okay, let's take our next level of people." Maybe it's who uses Excel as a global base all the time inside your company, your accounting department, your analysts, or whatnot, and put them one version delayed behind that, so that they're getting new stuff, it's a second round of testing. And then you put the majority of the users on just whatever the regular monthly channel is. And the people who are in an area that needs to be on the most patched, the most stable for whatever reason, put them on the deferred, just be aware that those guys on deferred, they're not going to get the dynamic arrays until they filter through the rest of the stuff.
Ken Puls (01:18:04):
I think there's avenues there, but I know some companies that have embraced that architecture, I know other ones that they just want perpetual, that's it. And I know still others who say, "Yeah, but I want to own my software." You don't own it anyway. It's just interesting.
Rob Collie (01:18:22):
I actually have two questions for you guys. The two of you are both still and always were but definitely today are closer to the Excel community at large than I am. Do you still see array functions as like a really hot, well trafficked topic?
Rob Collie (01:18:39):
My time on the Excel team, basically Wall Street ran on array formulas. Do you have any sense of that changing at all? Because really, what I'm wondering is I've always thought ... Not always, but for a long time, I've thought that DAX would be a godsend for the array formulas crowd, even in terms of just performance, much less capability. Do you have any sense whether the world has moved on from array formulas? Or is it still sort of the thing it used to be?
Ken Puls (01:19:06):
I don't think that it's moved on from them. I think they're a tool. And I think with the dynamic arrays coming out that it actually starts to breathe new life into the array world. I can't say that I would have ever thought that, that world was specifically dying, though. I don't do a lot of work with Wall Street, so I can't really speak to what the engineers of those functions are working with out there.
Ken Puls (01:19:26):
But in the community, when you start looking at array formulas and whatnot, if they the Ctrl+Shift+Enter style of array, it certainly takes a very high skill set to be able to actually put those together, and there's there's a lower number of people that would be comfortable in architecting, providing, and explaining those solutions.
Ken Puls (01:19:45):
I think with the dynamic arrays coming out, though, that changes everything. Now, they're a lot easier to create. They're a lot easier to visualize in the grid. We're seeing formulas that are being built for arrays and whatnot. And now, with the lambda functions that are coming out, I actually see that they're probably going to end up getting more widely spread use, just because they're more accessible and a little bit more visible. That's just my thought. I think it's just a tool again like Power Query, like Power Pivot. But the nice thing with arrays is that they are leveraging the calc engine. They're super fast right in the grid.
Bill Jelen (01:20:14):
Yeah. I think dynamic arrays are taking over, but there are still people who are using the old Ctrl+Shift+Enter arrays. We have books for both. We have books on dynamic arrays, and my current book on Ctrl+Shift+Enter. They're both still selling. The dynamic arrays is outpacing the old one, but people are still buying the old one. So, I still think there's hardcore people out there who are using the old fashioned array formulas. I think as the new dynamic arrays become more powerful, and they're adding more stuff regularly, I think they'll just take over.
Rob Collie (01:20:43):
Isn't there a flavor of array formula, though, that starts to bog down on the same sort of performance problems that VLOOKUP has? It's the filter part of the ... If you think of the DAX engine, its filter and then arithmetic, it's the filter part that Excel has always been slow at. Arithmetic Excel is just as fast as DAX, but the filtering part is where Excel tends to sometimes kind of face plant in terms of speed.
Rob Collie (01:21:12):
I guess I just have never really done that much serious array formula modeling. Model off folded, they're gone. And I got passed off to some other email list like Modeller's Miscellany or whatever. I don't know. I don't know what happened. That would be like sort of the arena in which we could see if anyone started to use DAX iterator functions instead of arrays in that competition, if it still existed. That would be sort of the place where we would start to see it peak above the waterline, I guess.
Bill Jelen (01:21:43):
Yeah, I think that would take a special contestant that the people who are getting that level one model off are generalists. They have a lot of specific skills. And I don't think you would find that person bubbling up to the top 16 of model off if it still existed. But I bet there's people out there who are really, really into it. It would be interesting to have a YouTube video and make a statement one way or the other, and then people will make sure to let me know how wrong I am.
Rob Collie (01:22:06):
This is, to me, like a really ripe field of the Excel community in terms of where there could be a massive breakthrough is introducing ... It's just a hunch. I haven't refined it clearly, obviously, but it's just a hunch that the array formula crowd, if they ever got ahold of DAX and iteration, they'd just be like, "Oh my god."
Bill Jelen (01:22:27):
See, that's a book. That's a book.
Rob Collie (01:22:28):
Hair blown back.
Bill Jelen (01:22:29):
DAX formula is for the array formula crowd.
Rob Collie (01:22:31):
There you go. Ken, you should write a book. Write that book, man. The world needs it.
Ken Puls (01:22:35):
As Bill will tell you, I've already got a book I got to get finished.
Rob Collie (01:22:39):
I promise to skim through it when you're done.
Ken Puls (01:22:42):
I'll bet you do. I'll bet you do. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:22:47):
The other thing I was going to bring up was you actually mentioned it Ken. You know that scene on The Graduate where the father's friend at the pool party takes him aside and has given him some career advice, like the most important career advice you'll ever get? And he just looks at him and goes, "Plastics. One word, plastics." Dustin Hoffman said, "That's your advice?" Plastics. I feel like I want to just look at the Excel MVP community right now and go, "Lambda functions. That's where it's at.
Ken Puls (01:23:17):
Lambda is a very interesting case. I think that it's going to be interesting to see when people start actually pairing up dynamic arrays and lambdas together and whatnot, and building stuff that is really perf intensive, or whatever else in the grid and does a lot of things. I mean, this is one of the things that's frustrating with Power Query, of course, is that everything's locked behind a refresh. And the thing with pivot table is, of course, they're locked behind a refresh, and that's what a lot of the dynamic arrays and potentially lambda functions could end up changing.
Ken Puls (01:23:43):
I will say, though, that for myself, until somebody writes a really, really good book on lambdas, I don't anticipate that I'm going to end up playing in that sphere, mainly because it's got the exact same issues that I had with trying to debug my way through a DAX formula. So far, my experience with lambdas has been I've been able to start and get to where I can create myself an error. I'm trying to actually understand how to get past that is really difficult.
Ken Puls (01:24:07):
For me, I've just kind of looked at and went, "Yeah, you know what, I think this is a battle that I'm going to let someone else fight and I'll work through and work on those. I'm going to stay in my Power Query realm at the moment." I do believe they're going to be incredibly powerful. Don't get me wrong, but there's some work that I think Microsoft still needs to do to give us a good debugging engine in that area.
Bill Jelen (01:24:24):
Yeah, I agree with that. But I'm seeing a lot of people jumping on the lambda bandwagon, including MVPs and YouTube viewers. I'll do something on YouTube, and someone will say, "Oh, you could have done that with one formula. I'll put a lambda in there." The people embracing that new technology is just pretty incredible. Although, we're hitting some sort of a limit as far as the call stack that really needs to be increased before. I think you can get to real world use, but it's very promising.
Rob Collie (01:24:51):
By the way, a guy that you both know, and I think have fond feelings for, Sam Rad. For a while, one of his characters that he played in World of Warcraft with us, his name was [Kal Stack 01:25:02], with a K.
Ken Puls (01:25:05):
That's funny.
Rob Collie (01:25:06):
He had another one called do events.
Bill Jelen (01:25:09):
That's awesome.
Ken Puls (01:25:10):
Yep. I remember that one actually. Yes.
Rob Collie (01:25:16):
That's great. We're running to the end. Is there anything that either of you just been like sitting on like bottling up?
Ken Puls (01:25:22):
I got a question for you that I'm curious to know.
Rob Collie (01:25:25):
Okay.
Ken Puls (01:25:25):
Years ago, Rob, when he left Microsoft, you emailed me and said, "Listen, dude, I want to PM an add-in, and I want you to write this add-in for me and whatever else." We did some work on that. And then eventually, you emailed me and said, "Look, I'm going to turn this over to you. I'm done. I'm moving on a different direction and whatever else." It took me a while, but I was curious, have you actually seen it?
Rob Collie (01:25:43):
No, I haven't.
Ken Puls (01:25:44):
You haven't. You need to do a little search and download Monkey Tools. I'll send you an email with a key for it and whatnot.
Rob Collie (01:25:50):
Monkey Tools.
Ken Puls (01:25:51):
Monkey Tools is an add-in that ties Power Query and Power Pivot together and does all kinds of cool stuff that you should totally be checking out.
Rob Collie (01:26:00):
Oh my god.
Ken Puls (01:26:02):
Since you're not aware. I mean, we do stuff like injecting calendar table pattern with Power Query. Because I remember the first version that we did once upon a time, I was actually building calendars in the grid, and you're like, "How are you going to update those?" We insert the Power Query to build the calendar table for you dynamically now, things like that. We do Power Pivot auditing, all kinds of stuff.
Rob Collie (01:26:21):
Oh, yeah. You hear that Microsoft? If you don't put the button then, Monkey Tools will.
Ken Puls (01:26:27):
I've already told them that on a couple of occasions, actually.
Rob Collie (01:26:30):
I know this feeling. You talk to Microsoft and say, "Please, please take my idea that I'm planning to make money off of. Take it, put it in the product, I would prefer that." And they're like, "So, you just go build an add-in."
Ken Puls (01:26:42):
We just recently added a functionality and it's a go and take your Power Query that you have and actually build a slowly changing dimension table for you. Like crazy stuff to help people with their modeling, audit reports to try and figure out how things are tied together, a DAX explorer, a Power Query explorer. We even have a little thing that you can click on your pivot table and say, "Show me the filter context," with what we call our pivot sleuth. And it will show you all the fields that are impacting that particular pivot table as well.
Ken Puls (01:27:06):
There's all kinds of stuff in there, which was born out of the inspiration of the stuff that we worked on years ago. Dude, I'm hurt and shocked that you haven't seen it yet. Like what the hell?
Rob Collie (01:27:15):
Oh, well, I don't consume anything. I'm pretty busy. Running this podcast empire, it's not all fun and games.
Ken Puls (01:27:28):
Anyway, I'll send you a link, you should check it out. Because as I say, you were a big part of inspiring this thing, and we've had it up for sale now for just over a year, and we keep on adding new stuff to it. It's under active development. I think you'll find it ...
Rob Collie (01:27:42):
Oh my god. Yeah.
Ken Puls (01:27:42):
Make your Excel life easier.
Rob Collie (01:27:43):
Yeah, that's awesome. If it's generating some of the harder M scripts for me. The M scripts generated by that, for example, are those like copy pastable? I could even use them in Power BI?
Ken Puls (01:27:53):
You could absolutely use them in Power BI. I wish I could actually inject them directly into Power BI, but unfortunately, there's no back end hook to be able to actually write M to a Power BI model.
Rob Collie (01:28:02):
Damn, dude. First of all, kudos. You know the old saying, right? 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. Ideas are worth nothing, it turns out. You've gone and built something. Actually, that sounds a lot more ambitious than even the original idea, even in compost.
Ken Puls (01:28:17):
It's turned into a heck of a lot more, absolutely. I've actually ended up hiring a guy to actually work on it. And now, I'm playing the role of program manager that you were going to play, but I'm also doing a lot of the coding and button scenes and whatnot.
Rob Collie (01:28:28):
I'll try it on anyway.
Ken Puls (01:28:29):
Absolutely. Try it on anyway. Beautiful. I'll send you a link.
Rob Collie (01:28:37):
That's amazing.
Bill Jelen (01:28:37):
Sounds great. Yeah.
Ken Puls (01:28:38):
Yeah, it's fun stuff.
Rob Collie (01:28:39):
Thank you so much, both of you. This is great.
Ken Puls (01:28:41):
Yes. Good. See you guys again.
Bill Jelen (01:28:41):
Thomas LaRock signing off.
Rob Collie (01:28:42):
All right. Bye-bye. Bye, guys.
Ken Puls (01:28:45):
Cheers, guys.
Announcer (01:28:46):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
It's clear when you listen to Ryan Bergstrom tell his story as to why he is a leader here at P3 Adaptive. His problem-solving ability is incredible, and he loves to teach and help others. That vibe sounds quite familiar, the data community has a such great reputation for altruism! Ryan's drive, tenacity, and resilience have led him on a path to success, and he's just getting warmed up! It's a great story that we hope will inspire the future data rock stars out there.
References in this episode:
The Saturday Night Live Wolverine Skit
The Pokemon Optimizer Blog Post
Episode Timeline:
- 2:45- Bergs's journey begins with a degree in Finance (pronunciation matters!), living in his parent's basement, and selling gym memberships...Ryan quickly realized that was NOT for him
- 23:45 - Rob's dream about Bergs, the value of the new tools, and Ryan is way better than he thought at this stuff
- 52:45 - An interesting data problem Rob's been working on
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends. Today's guest is Ryan Bergstrom. Ryan's one of our directors here at P3. So yes, that's two weeks in a row of directors from P3. Ryan's story reminds me of an old song that I really liked, that was all about roses growing up through cracks in the sidewalk. Of course, our twist on it is, you can't keep the data gene down. Ryan's career arc began with what you might call generationally poor timing. I won't spoil the details, but you've heard the phrase pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. Well, Ryan definitely did that, but you see Ryan's bootstraps, they had the word data written on them.
Rob Collie (00:00:40):
Necessity, resilience, both massive themes in Ryan's life, but also he's a helper. Even at the beginning of his story, you'll hear that he was already helping his colleagues, his teammates, when no one told him he had to. And spiritually, that continues today with us at P3. I'll even tell you in this episode about a dream that I had that involved Ryan. It really, really, for me anyway, captures how I feel about the guy. He's a super valuable teammate, contributor, and leader for us at P3, and also just a great person. And I'm really happy that I know him. Okay, you know what's next. Let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:20):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:01:24):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast with your host, Rob Collie and your cohost, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:47):
Welcome to the show. Ryan Bergstrom, how are you today?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:01:51):
I'm doing well. Pleasure to be here, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:01:54):
It sounds so sincere, right there.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:01:56):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:01:57):
Authenticity is our hallmark on this show. And you're already leading off just so perfectly.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:03):
Well, I strive to please.
Rob Collie (00:02:05):
Tell us a little about yourself. What's your role here at P3 Adaptive?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:08):
I am our senior director of client services. Gosh, I feel like my four-year anniversary is coming up here in maybe a week.
Rob Collie (00:02:17):
There's a whole sort of like entering class of people coming up on there four-year.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:22):
Yeah, yeah. If this was like the X-Men, I would be like the Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, maybe Gambit, Beast, certainly Archangel, but not Jubilee or any of those new folk.
Rob Collie (00:02:37):
I see, I see. Do you have a particular affinity for any of those, that first wave?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:41):
Well, I mean-
Rob Collie (00:02:42):
I mean, naturally you want to be Wolverine, don't you?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:44):
Yeah, yeah. I mean-
Rob Collie (00:02:45):
And everybody wants to be Wolverine.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:47):
I'm from Minnesota. He's Canadian. They're like cousins to us.
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
Not everyone can be Wolverine. So I don't if that makes him for like draft or something.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:02:55):
He's generally first pick, isn't he? But I mean, no one would've picked Cyclops. No one wants to be the, "Come on guys, follow the rules."
Rob Collie (00:03:02):
Have you ever seen the old Saturday Night Live with John Belushi where John Belushi is speaking in some sort of like deeply Eastern European accent? The English coach is telling him to say this, to say sentences over and over again. Like, "I'm sorry, but we are all out of badgers. Would you be willing to accept this Wolverine."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:03:24):
No, I haven't seen that.
Rob Collie (00:03:24):
John Belushi, of course, the way you pronounce it, Wolverine, and every sentence that the guy has him say ends in Wolverine.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:03:33):
No, I haven't seen that.
Rob Collie (00:03:34):
That kind of punctures the Wolverine myth for me. Is that every time I see Wolverine, I think Wolverine. All right, so senior director of client services, what does that mean?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:03:45):
When I joined the company, I was principal consultant and I got to see a ton of awesome use cases across a variety of our clients, taught the Gillian trainings and just got to do it all with Power BI, with Power Pivot, Power Query, and see the incredible range of use cases that the tool set can be used for. And as we grew, I became the director of client services or one of them, helping other consultants build solutions for our clients, solve problems, whether it's act like a dispatcher and figure out who's going to staff what. And there's a ton of internal projects that we have because we're a growing company. And so we have our own infrastructure that we're continually improving and our curriculums that we're continually adding new content to. And I'm one of the people that drive that forward.
Rob Collie (00:04:38):
Yeah, we just had one of our other directors, Krissy on the show and we really didn't talk much about the role of director here. It's our management job for the consulting team. It's different though because we're a remote company. Did you have management experience before coming here?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:04:53):
No, I didn't. Prior to coming to P3, I worked for two different companies. I started working with Life Time Fitness. That's where my career kind of began. I was selling gym memberships, actually, I was a member engagement advisor for my first job, became a Salesforce admin, Salesforce developer, and then national sales and marketing analyst. Then I worked for a medical device company as a consumer insights analyst, Coloplast, doing just tons of analysts and development work. And from there, that's when I came to P3. So no management experience.
Rob Collie (00:05:30):
So you don't have that contrast of like, "Oh, here's what it was like managing people in person versus managing them remotely." Which many people in the world have encountered now for the first time over the last year. Management's always been remote for you. It's like, "What's the big deal."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:05:46):
Yeah, that's kind of how it's been. And you know what's interesting, it's occurred to me now, when Life Time Fitness is where I spent the majority of my pre P3 career. When I was working in the national sales and marketing office, I reported to our vice president of sales, and all of his lieutenants, so to speak, the regional managers were national. So, even though I was going to the office and I wasn't remote, I was certainly interfacing with predominantly, I guess, you could say remote people because it was a national corporation. From observing him as a leader and a manager, he was certainly managing remotely. I've never really put that together, but I suppose a lot of lessons that I passively learned were from him.
Rob Collie (00:06:38):
Sponging it up. Yeah.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:06:40):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:40):
One of the best things that you can be in a career, I think, is sort of like a curating sponge, picking up things that you saw other people doing that worked well or things that didn't work well and being able to replay that. So much of my development has been that, like role-playing the successful habits that I've seen from others that I've worked with. So I'm glad that you were able to bring that one in.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:07:02):
Yeah, there's a Richard Bach quote from either, I don't know if it's from Jonathan Livingston Seagull or if it was from this book he wrote called Illusions. The story of a reluctant Messiah, but the quotes always stuck with me and I'm going to totally butcher it right now. So the quote hasn't obviously stuck with me that much because I'm not going to nail it, but it was essentially, "We are all teachers. We are all students. All great teachers are perpetual students." Is the more or less than none of it. You cannot lead. You cannot manage. You cannot do anything unless you're always open to new information, just coming in from other people and adjusting what you are.
Thomas LaRock (00:07:40):
Since we're on the topic. I was going to mention something I learned back in my previous life. I know I've mentioned that before that I used to coach basketball. You pick up little things from everybody. So there's always this thing. You can never pretend to be somebody else because you always be second best. So when you start out coaching, you can't say, "I'm going to be like coach K or do all these things." You can never be that coach. So what you do is you say, "I really liked that play that coach just ran. I'm going to take that." I like the way temple plays defense, zone defense.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:13):
I'm going to use that. And you take all of those parts of all this stuff that you've learned in, say your ether, all around you and you take what you think is the one that would reflect a part of you. And then that is what you become. So as a coach, I had little aspects of all these different things. And somebody would say, "Where'd you learn that?" "I learned that from John Thompson at Georgetown." I thought that was just peculiar for coaching, but no, that's just life in general. Just like Ryan was saying, you take that one little thing from somebody else and you say, "I liked that part and I'm going to use that for myself."
Rob Collie (00:08:49):
Yeah, if we want to get really nerdy and we do. The right metaphor [crosstalk 00:08:53], my favorite metaphor anyway is the Borg from Star Trek: Next Generation. They go and absorb civilizations and they don't turn into that civilization. They just sort of like take the capabilities from that civilization that they like, that'd be a good strengthening fit for their overall collective. And they acquire those and feature those. They're like, in some sense the best of the best of all the things that they've eaten. To be Borg like is a piece of a nerd career advice.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:09:24):
Be Borg like. Now, I've watched a little bit of Star Trek. I love it when I do watch it. Are they a villain in the show?
Rob Collie (00:09:31):
Definitely a villain. And you know the other thing that this metaphor isn't so great is that they're also kind of robotic and unfeeling. So, you want to be bored in terms of your skills and wisdom acquisition, but everything else you don't want to be bored like.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:09:48):
I really like analogies and metaphors that are kind of like the antihero of metaphors or analogies, like be bored like, because that's the good stuff. Assimilate the good stuff. But let's forget that they're the villains. One that always seems to happen in society at large is, "Oh, this is the new cell phone on steroids." And it's like, usually we frowned upon steroids. But when we're using it in an analogy, we sure seem to like it, like oh, this is the, I don't know the Hummer H3, the Hummer 2 on steroids." It's always like, "Okay, so steroids are good when we're using it as a metaphor, but it's bad when you do them or [crosstalk 00:10:26] no one recently all the time in business, we talk about Power Pivot and Power BI and Power Query like, "Oh, we want, our client said once they learn Power Query, it's like the gateway drug." And I'm like, "Okay, so drugs are good in this analogy, but in other analogies or in real life, like generally drugs, no, not a good thing."
Rob Collie (00:10:46):
Yeah, we just take the good part of the analogy and discard the rest of it. This car is the regular car on steroids. Wait, wait, wait. You mean, it's going to have like a receding hairline and its rear tires are going to shrink over time and it's going to have a temper
Ryan Bergstrom (00:10:58):
It's backed me in this hail damage on the car, what are we talking about here?
Rob Collie (00:11:05):
No, no, just the good parts of steroids. That's great. Did you really say that you haven't watched much Star Trek? Did you [crosstalk 00:11:13]-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:11:13):
I've probably watched 20 to 30 episodes. I've seen it most in movies.
Rob Collie (00:11:16):
Okay. All right.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:11:17):
But there's eight seasons of it or more eight. That's probably a super turn. There's like 50 million because there's 10,000 spin-offs
Rob Collie (00:11:25):
Yeah, I just didn't want to let you get away with like, I was like the ringleader of the board game club here at P3 like-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:11:30):
This is true.
Rob Collie (00:11:30):
... throwing down that like, "Oh, well I've heard of this Star Trek thing. I've just...
Ryan Bergstrom (00:11:35):
No, no, I love it. I have no dislike of Star Trek. Look, I've played this game called Artemis. It's essentially a bridge simulator. And it's me and my geeky friends sitting around with tablets and computers land party style. And it's essentially a Star Trek role playing game, but it's so bare bones and minimalist that many of my friends like to go destroy that enemy or that enemy. And that doesn't quite cut it for me. So, I'm sitting there like, "Captain, the cruise seems morale is down because the cafeteria is no longer serving steak on Wednesdays, moleculas steak, permission for the galley to upgrade their equipment." And there's nothing in the game that has anything to do with this. And my friends just like to go, "Uh, permission granted, blah, blah, blah." But captain it doesn't end there. There's also an issue with the condiments. If we do move forward, we're going to need and the, okay Ryan. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:12:41):
Yeah, I think I want to role-play with you. Yeah, the last few attempts at any sort of online gaming like that have really haven't gone over well. It felt like work. I want to circle back to a couple of things. So I heard a quote the other day that I don't know who originally wrote this. I really liked it, which is that information is surprise. If no surprise, no information. In order to be surprised, you have to have some humility, don't you?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:13:14):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:14):
If you know it all, you can never be surprised. Information is surprised. That was one that like, "Hey Borg like in the good way." Like I've said, "Hmm, I'm picking that one up. That ones being an added to the collective."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:13:28):
That's the kind of quote that you hear in the slam poetry observer in you comes out and you say, "Hmm." You kind of snap your fingers."Hmm, that's good."
Rob Collie (00:13:40):
Oh yeah. That's how I do it. Going back to your origin story. One of the ongoing themes of the show and really of our lives and of our company, there's a few points that all tie into the same theme, but one of them is this concept of the citizen developer. Another one is this tweener sort of the IT business hybrid. And really then sort of the thing that's kind of humorously ties them together is that the best results, the best versions of this are never intentional. Did you have any idea back in school that you were going to be a frontline celebrated data professional?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:14:17):
Oh, absolutely not. When I was in school, you're being generous by asking me if I had any idea if I was going to be a data professional. When I was in school, I didn't have any ideas. I was just nothing but surprise at all the information coming my way. I studied finance, which I was taught by my finance professor that if you have a degree in finance, you say finance. And if you don't, you say finance. That was one of the things I learned in college.
Rob Collie (00:14:45):
That was worth four years.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:14:46):
That was worth four years. Barbecue, that was something I learned in college. I wish I could have done a super senior lab with that one. I studied accounting. Liberal arts education is interesting because you just get your tendrils into so many things. And even the things I didn't think I learned just come back to me. I'm like, "Oh, I remember studying this, or I remember sitting there." It kind of surprises you. But to your question, I think I was going to be a frontline data professional. Oh no, definitely not. I don't even think now you can get a data science degree or a business intelligence degree. I don't really think they were doing that. Back when I was in school in the early knots, pots, or whatever you call the early 2000s.
Rob Collie (00:15:24):
Can we call them the dreadnoughts?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:15:26):
The dreadnoughts, yes.
Rob Collie (00:15:28):
Just moving on. We can cut that out, right?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:15:30):
Yeah, that was a throwaway joke.
Rob Collie (00:15:32):
That was-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:15:32):
Look, you got to set the bar low with something so that the other ones really surprise you with the new humor information.
Rob Collie (00:15:39):
... One of the classic Mitch Hedberg sets on Letterman, he makes a joke and no one laughs and he turns and says, "Hey, can we cut that out? Can we edit that?" And suddenly then you're laughing at the bad joke. You had a built-in safe. So finance-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:15:55):
Finance.
Rob Collie (00:15:56):
... finance. So you studied finance.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:15:57):
You studied it too?
Rob Collie (00:15:58):
No, no. I've studied people who studied finance. I borged that from you. So, finance didn't prepare you for selling gym memberships. It's an interesting turn, right?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:16:10):
Interesting turn, yeah. So, when I graduated in the summer, June of 2008, it turned out that wasn't a good time to graduate and enter the workforce. Who did that?
Rob Collie (00:16:21):
What was going on back then? I don't even remember?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:16:24):
I don't know. I was too busy trying to get a great deal on a mortgage. No, not really.
Thomas LaRock (00:16:29):
You chose to enter college for years before that. I mean, you didn't have to.
Rob Collie (00:16:33):
You brought shit on yourself.
Thomas LaRock (00:16:34):
Right.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:16:35):
Yeah, no, no. I take full responsibility for that.
Rob Collie (00:16:37):
I remember at that time in the world as the financial sector was crumbling thinking, oh my God, can you imagine coming out of college right now? I didn't know I was talking about you. We actually hadn't met yet.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:16:49):
Can you imagine coming out of college right now with a degree in finance?
Rob Collie (00:16:52):
Especially in finance.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:16:54):
Well, so it didn't prepare me for selling gym memberships. I suppose that was like one of the other things I did when I was in school is I fell in love with health and fitness. So, being from Minnesota that's Life Time Fitness, corporate headquarters in Minnesota, best part of my day when I was living in my parents' basement at the time was going to Life Time Fitness, I'll go work for these guys. So I started selling gym memberships and I don't know I did that for maybe a year and a half.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:17:19):
And fortunately for me, they used Salesforce and I just am good at technology and software. I always say this when I'm teaching trainings or talking about my story, I was fortunate to grow up on eight bit Nintendo and 16 bit super Nintendo. Back when if you read the manual, you learn to the tips and tricks. So, it ingrained in me since I was a competitive five-year-old video gamer with my friends and cousins was, if I read the manual, I will be able to beat you, because that's where the secrets are. And reading the manual obviously, a powerful thing because the internet made it one of the first acronyms. RTFM, read the something manual.
Rob Collie (00:18:03):
Fun manual.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:18:04):
The fun manual. Read the fund manual, yes. So I read the manual on Salesforce back then and when I was selling gym memberships and just got really good at making reports and dashboards in Salesforce to help people prospect for sales. And that parlayed my way into the corporate headquarters. No idea when I was doing it, that all of a sudden I was about to become like a data person at the time.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
But it's an interesting collision there. That always really interesting to me. I don't think I've ever really asked you very specifically this, your job is to convince people to sign agreements and become members at Life Time Fitness at that that moment in time. Was anyone telling you, "Hey, Ryan, we need you to go into Salesforce and start running reports." How did you make that transition?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:18:55):
I needed to make money. I was a 100% commission. And so I needed to figure out the people that were most likely to join. So, I was just doing all kinds of customer analysis on my own and then helping my coworkers do it. There was just a problem and I couldn't kind of anyone else but myself to solve it. Because I think that that's just generally what you got to do. Don't wait for other people to solve your problems. Be proactive in solving yourself if it's possible. And it was fun, working with data is fun.
Rob Collie (00:19:24):
But you didn't know that until then, right? There's this moment where you... It's like the moment in the the parking lot in the movie, a star is born. The story takes that turn. She starts singing and you realize it, one day you're going, "Oh, there's all this information in Salesforce, but I wonder if I can do anything with that?" It doesn't sound like most of your colleagues were doing that.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:19:47):
No, I don't think so. I just happened to be that type of person that was a good with computers and good with software and open to learn it. There's a certain amount of people that just left clicking is enough. They just want to use information or information technology, computers, et cetera, as little as possible to accomplish their task. But they don't think, "Well, how could I use these tools to make the task different or more effective, easier, smarter, better, et cetera." And it's like the Bill Gates quote really, "If you have something really complicated, have your laziest employee do it because they'll figure out the best way to get it done." Maybe that was me. I didn't want to make a million cold calls. I wanted to make 15 to 30 good ones.
Rob Collie (00:20:35):
Interesting. Most of the places where people encounter like BI for the first time, it's usually a situation where there's more than just personal leverage involved, meaning the thing that they're looking at with the data and they start falling into Excel or whatever, the report that they're generating at the analysis that they're performing is information about the activities of many, many people and probably can impact the decisions made on behalf of a number of people as well. You started in a place where you really only had personal leverage, the reason to run some BI like your BI moment, isn't a place that you wouldn't typically, that I wouldn't typically expect to be one of the, sort of the formative environments.
Rob Collie (00:21:21):
I would not expect that frontline sales rep for a national gym chain in their particular location would need a whole lot of BI. I know that they'd need it. I know that data is always useful. The magnitude of leverage involved is quite a bit lower in that situation. And yet you still leaped that gap. I think that's actually kind of extraordinary, even relative to most of the stories we hear, like the first collision with data. You really had to be, I think, pretty aggressive, even more than usual to make that jump.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:21:56):
Look, I was living in my parents' basement and I was hungry to get out. I needed to win for myself. And this is the beginning of my career. I studied finance and now I'm selling gym memberships. It wasn't what I wanted to do forever. And I didn't want to work in finance despite getting a degree in it. I was lost really.
Rob Collie (00:22:15):
Did you hear that by the way, as he's dismissing it and pronounces it finance?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:22:19):
I was hoping no one would catch that.
Rob Collie (00:22:20):
He's looking over his shoulder going buy-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:22:22):
I don't want to be dq'd now.
Rob Collie (00:22:24):
... buy, buy finance.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:22:25):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:25):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:22:26):
Yeah, I never wanted anything to do with you.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:22:28):
I just needed to do something. And I loved the intellectual challenge that creating these BI reports made and being able to help my fellow member engagement advisors at Life Time Fitness, I would make them reports in dashboard. And then we had a team and we were trying to win as a team. So I was starting to produce BI for that one location to help drive us forward. And I don't know, I guess, it was just the domino effect. When the position opened up at the corporate office that I ultimately ended up getting, it was Carrie Jacob's, my old manager that originally forwarded to me. She was like, "This is like what you do for us. You should do that for the whole company." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that would be amazing." And it worked.
Rob Collie (00:23:14):
How neat, what a great story.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:23:16):
Oh yeah. My story is all about being helped by everyone else along the way. And the power of relationships is one of the absolute number one thing I learned, it's like, we are all people trying to figure this whole thing out. And you can try to step on other people or you can try to lift other people up. And if you do the ladder, it's more fun and more rewarding. And frankly, one of the most rewarding things about being at P3 Adaptive because we get to go into all these companies and just help them elevate their game. And the excitement that comes with it is just addictive.
Rob Collie (00:23:56):
There was another one of those examples of a metaphor that we're taking the good parts of and not the bad parts.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:24:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:24:02):
You're just you're doing a brisk business and a Borged metaphors. Let me tell you all while Ryan's here listening. Let me tell you all about a dream I had one time, you know like in the 80s or 90s adventure movies, at the beginning of the movie that sort of trying to as quickly as possible introduce all of the characters, and they've got this one, there's this one person who's sort of the star of the movie. And it's usually someone like Ed Harris. And Ed's making his way through the space station or whatever, checking on everybody. He's like, "We're going down through the submarine from the bow to the stern."
Rob Collie (00:24:41):
He's checking in with all the people who end up being the characters in the movie, but he's checking on them. And they're all happy to see him and he's there to help and he's providing support and everything. And that's sort of the intro sequence to the movie. I had that dream and the Ed Harris figures working his way through the submarine. But the whole time it's Ryan, it's Bergstrom here. It's his face. I's him. That's how my subconscious perceives Ryan at our company. Ryan's talking about relationships and everything and how much people supported him and everything. And I just want Ryan to tell that story in public with God as my witness, so that everyone knows that you live that or you pay it forward to.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:25:20):
Rob's told me this before. So, I appreciate the story. It hits me right in the fields.
Rob Collie (00:25:25):
You're Ed Harris in the abyss, you know?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:25:28):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:25:29):
The glue, the one that holds it all together.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:25:32):
I try. We're just the team. Life can be a team sport if you let it. And it's more fun that way for me, for the people that are playing on solo mode instead of co-op. That's cool too. I'd love to be an MPC in your game, whether I'm giving you a quest or whether I just have that fun one line, that's cool too, but let's all win together.
Rob Collie (00:25:55):
I thought for a moment there, we were just going to get one of those terrible sports platitudes, like, "Well, it's team sport, run the blaze, the coach draws up and focus one thing at a time. Make sure we execute." Nope, didn't get the sports platitude. That was something completely unexpected there. There was information. There was surprise.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:26:15):
Surprise.
Thomas LaRock (00:26:15):
You were surprised.
Rob Collie (00:26:15):
Yeah, That was definitely a surprise. All right, so you discovered the power of data in an unlikely place due to... It's almost like pressure and heat-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:26:25):
Yes [crosstalk 00:26:26].
Rob Collie (00:26:26):
... it's an intense necessity. Yeah, what a rough time, by the way, the COVID graduating crowd, right?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:26:34):
Oh no.
Rob Collie (00:26:35):
Is the first one to experience something quite like what you graduated into. So maybe right now, not maybe, certainly right now, there are people being forged in the fires of adversity and data, like young, recent graduates who are going to be rockstars in the near future. I look forward to meeting some of them.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:26:55):
Oh, they're out there. I mean, I talked to a few people who are in school right now and I have a chess coach, Rob. I'm a chess player. I have a chess coach. [crosstalk 00:27:04] I've rediscovered my love of chess from fifth grade. And my chess coach is a freshman in college right now, studying data science. Super cool dude. And I find myself down him. I'm like, "Hey look, you are totally in control to make yourself as good as you want. You don't need permission from anyone else." We've never been in a time in human history where it has been easier to learn anything. And no one's gatekeeping you. You're in control of that. And these people that are graduating right now in COVID, man, my heart just aches for them. From a technology and information standpoint, they have it all at their fingertips and the hungry ones will rise to the top.
Rob Collie (00:27:52):
I agree with you that no one's actually gatekeeping, but that doesn't mean that people aren't trying. That was kind of a big theme of our conversation with Krissy is that the people who tend to learn technical skills via the abstract path, a lot of them tend to, whether intentionally or not become gatekeeper types for the vast majority of the rest of us who learn via the practical human impact route, which is a different route than the abstract route. So there are headwinds, it's not as gatekeeping is telling yourself that you can't do it because I'm not that type. I'm not one of those people. You can sort of see the shining example person and say, "Well, I'm not them." And so you self gatekeep. I agree with you. I mean, this isn't a disagreement.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:28:36):
Is the woman that invented Spanx named Sara Blakely? I think so.
Rob Collie (00:28:39):
Jamie look that up.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:28:43):
I was reading a book called Living with a SEAL that her husband wrote, the CEO of some company that had David Goggins lived with him, but his wife was Sarah Blakely. And one of the stories that he tells is that when she was growing up, her dad every night at dinner would say, "What did you fail at today?" And they would all celebrate the failures. And I loved it. Everyone's heard that failure is the stepping stone to success. It's like, fail, fail, fail, succeed. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again, all that. And that was the conversation that they had at the dinner table.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:29:16):
I was like, "Oh my God, I love that. I hope with my kids, I can do something productive like that." Because look at what she ended up doing. She's started a billion dollar company. Failure after failure, but worked her way up. With respect to learning new tech skills, it's hard because you don't succeed constantly. But every one of those stumbling stones, that's learning. That's what it feels like. People can do it. They just have to be willing to not be good at something for awhile.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:46):
So confirmed it is Sarah Blakely. And she's worth a billion dollars.
Rob Collie (00:29:50):
That's a lot of Spanx.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:51):
I was going to say, that's how much leggings are worth.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:29:53):
That's how much solving a problem that affects a ton of people is worth.
Rob Collie (00:29:57):
So, let's continue the progression. Here you are, you've moved upstream to corporate-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:30:02):
Corporate, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:30:02):
And now you're in an analyst role. You're officially a data person now. At some point along there you discover DAX. When and how does that happen? I mean, imagine if the Salesforce acquisition of Tableau had happened before, maybe you would have been forced fed Tableau and we wouldn't be here.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:30:21):
Quite possibly. So, five years at Life Time Fitnesses, the national sales and marketing analyst. I was still doing it all in Excel. I was living VLOOKUPs, SUMIF, kind of land. I remember I would do these elaborate summits to be lived up to all that stuff. This was before I discovered pivot tables. And then one day I was like, "Oh wow, I've been creating pivot tables, the long division way, interesting." At that point in lifetime, we'd switched from Salesforce to dynamics.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:30:53):
So I had two CRM systems I was familiar with and I got recruited to go work for Coloplast. It's a medical device company. They had a different CRM system, Oracle and the whole nice thing about me was I had this like CRM experience. But of course, I didn't think it mattered that much. I was like, "Look, it's just like how these different tables talk to each other." And I inherited these reports and dashboards when I was at that company that took forever to put together and it was bang your head against the desk and you never had time to improve them.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:31:25):
And so I was spending like a week, like seven business days to put together something. And I was like, "Surely this is a button. Can I just refresh this?" Like, "Surely there's got to be a better way. There's got to be a better way." And that at Coloplast is where I heard someone say Power Pivot and Power Query. And I was like, "Well, that's something in Excel I don't know how to do." It sounds promising. I mean, with a word like power, surely it'll solve all my problems. And that's when I bought actually your book grab because I was like, "All right, well, let's read the book." I know one thing is true. If you read the manual, it's where all the secrets are. So I bought some manuals.
Rob Collie (00:32:03):
This is by the way so atypical. I mean, if it's running completely counter to the male stereotype of not reading the directions, not asking for directions, I'll write a book, but I'm very loathe to read one.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:32:15):
People make fun, my friends make fun of me because if I got a new, I don't know, TV, and they're like, "Oh, let's turn this new 77 inch TV on and see how it looks." I'm like, "Hold on though, I got to read the manual." I look [crosstalk 00:32:27] forward to it. I love it. I'm going to find out about a button that some feature that's like unlocks it into virtual reality or something. I don't know. But that's where all the secrets are.
Rob Collie (00:32:37):
They're like, "But Ryan, the Super Bowl started five minutes ago." Your like, "Yeah, it's okay, we'll miss the first quarter, but imagine how much better quarters two, three, and four are going to be after I've read the manual."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:32:46):
Look, the jerseys are not going to be tuned to the correct color of royal if I don't learn how to adjust the color saturation. Yeah, now that's the brand of geek that I am.
Rob Collie (00:32:58):
My brother is like this. When he get a new Nintendo game back in the day, I'd be like, "All right, let's plug it in." And he says, "Oh no, no." He'll go sit in his chair with that manual. And he needed to read it cover to cover before he would ever even plug it in. I admired that and was surprised by it at the same time like, "Come on, lets..."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:33:16):
Well, that's the only way you learn how to do the secret modes.
Rob Collie (00:33:18):
You bought a manual?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:33:19):
I bought a manual. I bought your book. I started reading it, slowly. And I was a few chapters in and I knew this much about power pivot. And I was like, "Okay, let's take this problem that I have in Excel where I'm doing like a summit of 300,000 contacts to 800,000 phone calls." I'm doing the summit if I'm a 20 digit alpha numeric field. And when I would hit enter on that for a weekly report, I would see the percentage sign in the corner of Excel start to calculate 1%, 2%. And I got my stopwatch out at I timed it and it was going to take 15 minutes. I had to do this every week, 15 minutes to do this. And I would go walk the stairs and it locks your computer up. So I'd walk the stairs, I'd go get coffee. I'd do whatever. And I was like, "Oh I'm sick of it." So when I knew virtually nothing about PowerPoint because I was just beginning your book, I'm like, "Let's try this." Let's try this new thing. I did what I thought I had to do.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:34:19):
And I did it and it was done in an instant. And that was like I had been saved. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is the truth." I am learning everything I can about this because I just took 15 minutes and turned it into an instant. And that's when I was bad at it. How deep does this rabbit hole go? I was jumping in. I was on my honeymoon in The Bahamas, on the beach, reading a Power Pivot and Power Query book because I didn't have time not to get better at it because I saw how much better life was about to be. I would just read the books. I read them all. I bought every book on the subject matter. I would read a third of each one and get bored and go to the next one. This is what I do when I learn I've discovered. I get so many different sources that I could learn from.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:35:16):
And I end up going a third of the way through each one that I end up reinforcing the beginning concepts over and over and over and over again, before I end up making it all the way through. And I've realized that that just helps me learn better. The thing that was most frustrating was that I was telling everyone that I worked with, you got to learn this stuff. This is amazing. And they kept coming to me and saying, "Oh, that's so cool that you like reading about this stuff." I don't learn best from books. I don't learn best from this. And it just made me so mad. I was like, "Neither do I. I learned best with a private tutor, doesn't everyone?" But I learn I don't have to min-max and optimize my learning the way Tim Ferriss would have you believe. It's okay to just learn at a non-optimal pace and improve, so.
Rob Collie (00:36:08):
I'm going to zoom in on something that's a demonstration of integrity. The story about kicking off Excel and watching it grind for what you would realize would be like 15 minutes or whatever, maybe even longer in some cases. There's a different personality type that looks at that and goes, "Oh, hot damn." I have an excuse to screw around for the next 15 minutes. When I worked construction, I was sort of like the junior guy on the crew. Whenever the crew didn't want to do a whole lot of work for the rest of the day, they would just come up with a bunch of errands to send me on, "Oh, go get some nails, go walk a mile and a half through the sand to get nails and come back and then we'll do something." And I get back. I'm like, "All right, time to do that thing." Like, "No man, very close to the end of the day now." That bothered you that this thing was going to take that long. I'm with you, it would bother me too completely, right?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:36:58):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:36:58):
I don't take it for granted because there are a lot of people that are like, "Yeah, that's just how long it takes. And I go on and I get my coffee or I play phone games, whatever it is. So that hole there's got to be a better way. This guy has got to be better than this, like that's very common, I think, amongst our people.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:37:13):
Oh yeah, I think it's the most common thing amongst our people.
Rob Collie (00:37:17):
There's got to be a better way that we should make that even into an ad campaign. Write that down somewhere.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:37:21):
Yeah, probably.
Rob Collie (00:37:23):
Yeah, please. But at the same time, that's not true of all humanity. I think it's the data gene folks that think this way. And then the other 95% of the world don't think that way. This is something that the people don't really think about. At least in the early days we're talking to them about Excel is that Excel is very, very inefficient at searching for and finding things. Well, of course, at the same time, we've got the CPU's on our computers these days, their frequency is measured in gigahertz, billions of calculations per second. And they've got more than one core. So the average machine that we're running these days might be capable of 10 billion calculations a second without any trouble.
Rob Collie (00:38:04):
How the hell can anything be slow at 10 billion calculations per second. You were mentioning numbers in the hundreds of thousands and everything. Well, it turns out that if you're at a very, very, very inefficient search algorithm, because the storage structure of a spreadsheet wasn't optimized for it, finding matches is devastating. This is my challenge to the world. If you have a spreadsheet that you are tempted to put into manual recalc mode, where you ever see the percentage calculation progress meter in your spreadsheet. If ever see that, I can tell you without a doubt that you're doing something like VLOOKUP or SUMIF or array formulas that do those sorts of things, because you're absolutely using matching.
Rob Collie (00:38:47):
It's the matching that makes Excel slow. And the DAX engine is lightning fast at matching. It's not even fair. So this thing that went from 15 minutes to sub-second in calculation. It was like, "Well, now the CPU is doing what it's supposed to do." It's one of those really unexpected reasons to upgrade from Excel to Power BI is you'll never have to wait on a recalc ever again. And it's just one tiny benefit out of a dozen monsters. I guess it's not tiny.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:39:17):
Well no, it's not, but it's the truth in terms of tip of the iceberg of the incredible benefit that you get out of it. It's just an entire new way of thinking about your data and getting the answers. You get this feedback loop of, "Okay, I've solved that, I've solved that problem." So, now not only have I regained that time, that effort, but I'm asking a better, smarter question. So, I'm getting to the next layer over and over and over again.
Rob Collie (00:39:46):
The company you're at before P3 was called Coloplast?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:39:49):
Yeah. They sell ostomy bags and catheters. So a really, really great company, helping people with really devastating healthcare needs.
Rob Collie (00:39:59):
The name. It sounds like a fat cell that contains a soft drink.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:40:04):
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Rob Collie (00:40:05):
It's like... So how many years in there when you started slinging DAX and M?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:40:12):
Probably six months to a year.
Rob Collie (00:40:14):
Six months is really just enough time to kind of acclimate yourself to the role.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:40:18):
Yeah, I just was constantly taking too long to get things done for myself. And very quickly I heard about these new things and realized this is the better way. And I didn't have time not to learn at that point. It would cost me more time not to learn it than it would take to learn it.
Rob Collie (00:40:38):
Do you even remember the person who first mentioned it to you?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:40:43):
I do.
Rob Collie (00:40:44):
Good.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:40:45):
It was my boss. He said, "Oh, this Polish guy that we worked with, because we were global. We worked with people from all over the place. His tinkering with Power Query and Power Pivot. You should check, maybe that's the answer." He didn't know anything about it.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:58):
But he had heard of it?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:40:59):
He'd heard of it and then he paid for me to get videos from back when we were PowerPivotPro.
Rob Collie (00:41:05):
The 2013 videos that I shot in Excel 2010.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:41:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:41:12):
Because I was too upset about them renaming measures to be calculated fields in 2013. There was no way I was going to record for posterity sake. A bunch of videos calling it, calculated fields over and over again.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:41:23):
Once I started learning it, it was a snowball that couldn't gain speed fast enough. It was just like, "Oh, let's redo this report, let's redo this dashboard. Let's take this entire business process and change the way we do it because we're going to eliminate all of these headaches or we're going to gain this new insight." And I couldn't do it fast enough to satisfy myself. And I don't mean like I wasn't good enough. So I couldn't do it fast enough. I mean like, "Give me more, let us do this more because everything needs to be done this way." It will solve so many of the headaches.
Rob Collie (00:42:02):
So why'd you leave?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:42:02):
I left to come to P3.
Rob Collie (00:42:05):
I know that chronologically, but what was the enticement?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:42:08):
So, it was at that point and this happened to many of the people that work with P3, when they want to talk about their stories. They're getting good enough at their last job before coming to P3. And they're starting to work in all kinds of different departments, because whispers are going out about this person who can do this thing. That was happening to me. And that was really my happy place at work. I still had a ton of traditional Excel stuff, but I was like, "Oh, Power Query, Power Pivot, Power BI. I love doing this." And I remember I was talking to my boss at the time. I was like, "Hey, can you send me to this foundations at Power BI training with this company PowerPivotPro puts on? Can you send me to this?"
Ryan Bergstrom (00:42:53):
The company will give me five grand to get an MBA, but will you give me a thousand or 1500 or how much it costs to go do this foundation's Power BI course because like this will give me ROI for the company? The MBA, that's going to take years to get ROI. This is going to be immediate ROI. You're going to make your money back in a week after I get back from this course. "Ah, probably not, but I'll see what I can do." Well, meanwhile, there was a blog post by you saying were hiring.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:43:20):
And I had applied and I was working through our diabolical DAX test. So I'm trying to get approved to come to a P3 training. And at the same time, I'm also applying to P3 and I ended up passing that test. I had an interview with Kellan and Austin on a Friday afternoon. And before I did that interview, I had a conversation with my boss. I was like, "Hey, my favorite part of my job, the part that just fills my happiness cup is doing all this work in Power pivot, Power Query, and Power BI. You got to get more of that in front of me, send me around the company, have me do it. That's what I needed to do. Also, I got to get that training approved. I got to go do that training."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:44:03):
He's like, "All right, I'll see what I can do." So, then I go home and I have the interview with Austin and Kellan and offer the job on the phone call. The happiest day of my professional career. I was this pumping. It was very much like sci, like mute my microphone. I'm like fist bumping because, it turns out I was great. "We want to hire you." I didn't know I was that good at DAX at the time.
Rob Collie (00:44:24):
How would you know, there's nothing to measure yourself against an environment like that?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:44:28):
So I'm trying to get into this foundations training little did I realize like I was way past that.
Rob Collie (00:44:32):
Yeah, you were lying to your manager about all that ROI you were going to get. You were already past all of that.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:44:38):
Yeah, so I was wrong in hindsight, but I thought that that's what was... So then I come back to work on Monday after I've been offered the job, I get the offer letter over the weekend from you. I go into my manager's office and I was like, "Hey that class that I wanted to get approval for." He's like, "Oh, you know what I'm not going to be able to get approval for it. Not going to be able to do it. Sorry." I was like, "It's totally cool. I'm going to be teaching it." And I didn't say it in a mean way with, and my manager was like, "Oh really, what?" I was like, "Yeah, they hired me."I'm going to be doing it.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:45:16):
And he was just like, "Oh, that's so amazing. I'm so happy for you." And he was just an absolute, he was a great guy, great manager, brilliant person. And that was the moment. It was like, "No, no, no, I'm actually going to be teaching it. I apparently I don't need to go to it because not only do I know the foundations, I'm very advanced it turns out." And that was the beginning of me with P3.
Rob Collie (00:45:37):
So there's actually a really surprising parallel that are between your story and Krissy's. You both tried to get approval to take our training and were denied and ended up here instead. So let that be a lesson to you managers out there. Someone wants to take our training. If you want to keep them, you say yes.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:45:58):
Pretty much, yeah. I always think back to that conversation, that weekend, it was a turning point because I was reading the books on the beach in The Bahamas. I was staying up late and instead of playing video games, instead of doing whatever, I was reading the manual on how to properly do data modeling and how to write DAX, I was reading release notes of Power BI, because I just saw the value. I just knew that this was not the next step. This was the elevator.
Rob Collie (00:46:37):
If you're listening to this and you're wondering like, "Why are there so many people that so many, that started four years ago?" That's because that's when we started hiring full-time. We didn't have full-time jobs at P3. We had a lot of 1099 contractors or whatever. But when we really turned into the W-2 two full-time version about four years ago. So there's a reason that you and Krissy both sort of appeared at the same time.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:47:04):
I remember when I came on board, I got to meet Krissy. I got to meet all the other consultants working for P3. I remember having the conversations like, "Oh hey, I'm Ryan, this is what I'm going to do, board games and barbecue and I'm kind of weird. I stay up late at night and I constantly am trying to read and figure out the better way to do things. It's a curse that I have." And everyone is just like, "Oh yeah, me too. I also do that." I can't stop thinking about the better way to solve these problems. And that has just been one of the threads that every single one of the consultants that work for P3 has woven into them, as well, is we're just wired that way. There are other people that know DAX, we're the best at it, but there are other people that are incredible at it too. But what I think we're the best at is not just Power BI or DAX or Power Query, it's understanding a problem and finding the solution the fastest. That's what I think we're the best at.
Rob Collie (00:48:09):
I think we're the best consulting firm. If pure DAX is an Olympic sport, I'm not sure anyone from our company would be the gold medalist in the world. It just that we'd be close. We might be on the podium, but yeah, it's the impact. It's the human impact. The shortest path to impact. And that comes through the tweeners, the people who move through the human and business plane as easily as they move through the tech plane. You are, even though you didn't expect it, didn't set out to be it weren't studying to be it.
Rob Collie (00:48:40):
You have, just like Krissy, just like everyone in our company, you have a deep technical capability that we tend to associate with like I went to engineering school or something. You have that in your brain, those structures are in your brain. We just don't expect it. I think it's so beautiful. And at the same time, a little bit sad that there's so much latent, untapped quality engineering talent that's sort of languishing in tweeners. That have yet to find their valuable niche. Of course, it's part of our business model, you know?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:49:15):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:16):
Something's truly, truly beautiful about this. As a senior director here, how recently has it been that you've been puzzling over a data model or a DAX or an M problem?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:49:29):
Yesterday.
Rob Collie (00:49:30):
Well, that long ago, huh?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:49:31):
I was on a sales call and she was stumped and she had sent me the Power BI user form post that she made. And I took a peek at it while I was on the call with her. And I was like, "Wow, this is a really well documented problem." I was like, "You got like DAX studio queries in here. You got profile queries in here." I was like, "You're advanced, you know that right?" And she's like, "Well, I don't know about that." I'm like, "No, no, no, trust me, you are. You are an advanced user. You are very good." And I was like, "Well, I think that this is your answer. Your team needs training." She showed me her data model. I was like, "You really don't need our help with project consulting." Which I'm thrilled that I get to say that to people like, think about that. A customer called us and rather than me being like, "Oh, you need us to consult on your project."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:50:18):
I was like, "Oh no, you, you got this." Like, "You're solid, but this is what you're missing." And I gave her an idea to work with and we're following back up with training. But all of the consultants on my team will periodically come to me with data problems. I like to joke that maybe I have an aura of problem solving, to put it into a video game sense because they'll be explaining the problem and I'll be so excited to throw my input and I'll have ideas and I'm waiting to talk, because I've listened enough. So, now I'm done listening. Now, I'm just waiting to talk because I want them to be able to explain the whole thing to me. And before I can offer any sort of suggestion, they're like, "Oh I think I solved it." Yeah, and I'm like, "No, I was going suggest that idea too." But no, before they get to me, they saw with themselves-
Rob Collie (00:51:08):
That's-
Ryan Bergstrom (00:51:08):
... over and over again.
Rob Collie (00:51:09):
Yeah, that happens all the time like by the time you're done formulating a question in a way that another human being like you've refined it to the point where you can transmit the question in the process you uncover its fundamentals, the fundamentals of the problem. And that allows you to unlock it. That happens so many times. I've been on the receiving end and the transmitting end of that dynamic, just so many times of my career. All right, yeah that's it. And the person who's being asked the question sits there and goes, "Well, I'm glad I could help."
Ryan Bergstrom (00:51:40):
Yeah, that's pretty much the tone I use when I say that too. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:51:44):
That is the only tone that you're allowed to use actually, right?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:51:46):
Yeah, yeah. My way [crosstalk 00:51:48] is done.
Rob Collie (00:51:49):
I'm glad that we still have ways and opportunities for you to engage with those sorts of things because you know what happens, is you get into management and you get removed from all the things that brought you in the first place. Do you get a sustained diet of stuff like that or is that like I happen to ask you on a day that you just had a nice snack the day before?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:52:07):
Yeah, a little bit of that, but it's relatively sustained. It's not as much as when I was a principal consultant, but a couple times a month, at least people are coming to me and showing me the things and I'm helping them out, getting them suggestions. The difference now is that the things that I get to work on are always way more complex than when I was a principal consultant, because people only come to me with the hard stuff.
Rob Collie (00:52:32):
Yeah.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:52:33):
And that's not because I'm better than them. It's just that that's when they are stumped and they need to bounce an idea of someone.
Rob Collie (00:52:42):
I rarely get to do modeling in DAX anymore, less frequently than you. But with this podcast, the dashboards that we've been developing, I've been developing primarily with some Kellan help on the data fetching side. I've been working on this measure for a while, that it turns out that the DAX complexity of it is only part of it. The biggest problem with it is the real world. The real world nature of the problem. It's like I'm trying to calculate for a given episode how much lift it offers sort of in a durable sense. People come in to listen to this episode, do they stick around and become subscribers? But the thing is no one's telling us a subscriber count. It'd be really nice to know like, "Oh look, we went plus 20 or plus 20% or something like that in terms of subscribers after this episode." And we go, "Okay, that's a good episode for introducing our podcast to people." We should do things like that more often, but no one tells us how many people are subscribing.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:53:41):
Really?
Rob Collie (00:53:42):
No, we don't have a subscriber metric. We just have the number of downloads of an episode.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:53:46):
How do they know what the most popular podcast in the world? Because of downloads.
Rob Collie (00:53:50):
Apple knows if you're subscribed or not, but apple doesn't tell us the subscriber account. They hoard that information, and the same thing with Spotify and all of that. So all we know is how many times a client comes to our RSSV to download the audio file. And we know where it came from. We know that it came from Spotify, whatever. We haven't gotten too deep into it. It might be that there are some stats somewhere in Apple that we can get to, for instance. We have to like divine subscribers, and it turns out it's just a really noisy, noisy, complicated problem. The number of listens to episodes is going up over time. So there's just sort of a natural upward progression. So you can't just say, "Oh, it went up. It was sort of already kind of naturally going up.
Rob Collie (00:54:37):
So you got to say, "Did it go up faster than it had been?" It's what you've kind of got to look at. So now you're looking at sort of the local area of the curve, right before and right after the episode. And it just turns out that if there's a real ringer of an episode, right before or right after that episode, it distorts the hell out of everything. It's just like, I've really, really, really enjoyed that problem because it is so slippery. It is so difficult and it is so valuable if we can crack it. I think the answer is we just fundamentally need more granular source data, which of course is often the case, but it's been a nice week, long puzzle to screw around with.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:55:14):
Yeah, what do you like measuring acceleration?
Rob Collie (00:55:17):
Essentially, but it turns out that if every episode's pressing the gas pedal a little bit and taking it off, press, press, press. How do you follow Aroon?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:55:25):
Yeah, that's what I was just thinking.
Rob Collie (00:55:26):
As a guest, right? If you come after the corporate VP of Power BI, you're going to be judged as bad for listens.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:55:35):
Well, thanks for having a few episodes in before you go me on there.
Rob Collie (00:55:39):
Oh, you're following Krissy. You're still screwed.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:55:40):
Oh no, yeah. I take that back. Curses to you.
Rob Collie (00:55:48):
We really screwed you over here, man. I can't wait to show you the dashboard that shows how much you suck. And here's what we call the inverted Bergs from peak.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:55:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:56:01):
The [crosstalk 00:56:02] Bergs from trench.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:56:03):
I'm going to get approached by saboteurs to put me on other podcasts now.
Rob Collie (00:56:08):
It took some very sophisticated DAX to identify this, all right. All right, so you've been here for some very, very, very rapidly changing formative years.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:56:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:56:19):
In our business. It's sort of just as almost like the mythical extraterrestrial anthropologist looking in from the outside. What are some of your observations about the nature of what we're doing and what we've been figuring out and how we're different?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:56:35):
I've seen us continue to evolve really with the power platform stack because it's grown quite a bit, really in the last four years. You got Power Automate now you got Power apps. You got things that aren't quite power platform stack like Azure data factory that are coming out at new ways to do et. Al. And when I came on, we were very focused on just Power BI and Pivot and Power Query as our core competencies. They still are because there's still the greatest need for what I would call the simple things. They're not necessarily the simple things as I've learned. I was advanced. I wasn't just a foundations person, but in corporate America, the use cases we see all the time, they're not always cutting edge craziness. It's just helping people do the basics faster. But as we've evolved now, multiple times will implement these very complex enterprise solutions that our titles are principal consultants. But in the workplace you would have people with principal solution architect or senior solution architect doing these things that we're doing.
Rob Collie (00:57:48):
Plus a team of people with a title that ends in the word developer.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:57:51):
Oh yeah. Be developer, senior developer, pretty developer, all these things. And we're coming in and we have the end user's perspective. A joke that you make all the time is databases are often set to write only. No one actually looks at the data once they go in.
Rob Collie (00:58:09):
That's right. It's stored though. It's there. Trust me.
Ryan Bergstrom (00:58:12):
We go in and we're focused pretty much exclusively on how are you going to use this solution we implement to make your company better, to save you time, to make you more money, to save you money, to reduce headaches for your end users? So, we truly do have an end-to-end user experience in mind versus we're going to solve this data problem. We're not solving a data problem. We're solving human problems using data. And the majority of the work is focused on Power BI. But when we do these huge data solutions, oftentimes that end Power BI users who we have in mind. So, we're able to do the crazy backend solution architecture in a way that makes the most sense for Power BI to thrive.
Rob Collie (00:59:00):
I like it.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:01):
It's not going to fit in the t-shirt
Rob Collie (00:59:05):
All right, so as a board gamer and a disciple of DAX, did you cross paths with some of the fun stuff over the years? Did you ever look at the Pokemon optimizer blog post, you got anything like that? Have you ever used any Power BI for personal or gaming purposes or anything along those lines?
Ryan Bergstrom (00:59:22):
I used it to track a weight loss dashboard that my friend and I did last year. Every day I was sharing screenshots of my little health and wellness personal dashboard to show trend lines of where we were going to end up at the end of our little 75 day challenge. I did see the Pokemon blog. I looked at the Pokemon data model. I was quite happy with it. I've always wanted to build some sort of daily sports betting data model, but I don't sports bet. So it's really to like an idea that I think sounds fun.
Rob Collie (00:59:54):
Our only two time guest on the show, Michael Salfino is now associated with an outfit called BetPrep. You should look it up.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:00:04):
Okay, I'm going to definitely look that up.
Rob Collie (01:00:05):
Look up BetPrep and we can bring Mike back around. Maybe not even for the show, maybe we'll talk to him behind the scenes and get some DAX in there for them or something, who knows. I don't know what they're doing over there, but he was telling a story on it's the football off season, but they did one podcast talking about the draft and he was talking about, and some of the sports they're not as thoroughly analyzed as football is at this point. During the championship game of the final four, Baylor versus Gonzaga, they allow live betting now. You can place bets at various points during the game.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:00:41):
Oh really?
Rob Collie (01:00:42):
And Mike was telling the story about how his buddy, who he works with on BetPrep was just killing it because Gonzaga was the favorite. They were the one that was supposed to win. Early in the game they're down like, I didn't watch the game, but apparently that I down nine or 12 to nothing in the first several minutes. And at the time out, the algorithm that's setting the odds for the live bet is still too heavily believing in the favorite. That algorithm was going, "Okay, Gonzaga's going to still come back and win this." But everyone who was watching the game was like, "Oh, I don't know." And so he just kept every time out, he would bet on Baylor and just cleaned up. There's still some frontiers out there that are even in the gambling world where there's still some sort of unguarded doors, apparently. I don't know. I would've had no idea that any of that kind of stuff was even been going on, but.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:01:35):
No, you always just assume that the sports betting world has hired all the big brain betting thinkers to produce those algorithms. But it's just not true.
Rob Collie (01:01:47):
Well, I mean, they have, but anything that's new might be vulnerable. I bet that next year's algorithms are going to be a lot better.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:01:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:01:56):
That was probably a one time exploit in a way.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:01:59):
I doubt it.
Rob Collie (01:02:00):
Yeah. Oh man, just the idea of live betting during a game. I mean, it just seems like such a cliff to step off of. If I walked into that, I might not ever come out. I'm going to stay away from the idea of betting in real time. I don't bet at all, but for some reason I think the real time betting would really hook me and I want nothing to do with it.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:02:24):
Certainly keeps you interested in the game the whole time.
Rob Collie (01:02:27):
Well, if you have a decent fantasy football, you know-
Ryan Bergstrom (01:02:30):
Can you imagine how much money would've been lost or one during the Patriots-Falcon Super Bowl when they were down three, four touchdowns at halftime?
Rob Collie (01:02:40):
Yeah, yeah. This was something that also we talked about with Mike on the show was like, "If the win probability models keep saying that there was like a 99.8% chance that you going to lose and you still won or vice versa, is the model actually accurate?" Are the Falcons really that bad, because they've now lost multiple games where they had a 99 plus percent chance of winning in a short span of time? They just keep doing it. It's not just the Super Bowl. If they've managed to pull it off repeatedly, does that mean that the Falcons are just really, really that incompetent?
Thomas LaRock (01:03:12):
Yes.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:03:12):
Makes you wonder if that's a data point now in calculating the 99%?
Rob Collie (01:03:17):
Yeah.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:03:17):
Is Falcons equals true?
Rob Collie (01:03:19):
I had the idea that them having pulled that off indicates that it's going to be harder to have a 99% win probability in the future. The model's going to get smarter.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:03:27):
Oh, that too probably.
Rob Collie (01:03:31):
And go, "Well, I've seen crazier shit than this", says the model. "So we're only going to give you 97 or something."
Thomas LaRock (01:03:36):
Hey man, I've enjoyed this, hope you have as well.
Ryan Bergstrom (01:03:39):
Yeah, this has been really fun.
Announcer (01:03:41):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a day-to-day.
Krissy Dyess is a prime example of inspiration and adaptability. She made a decision to better her knowledge of the updated and evolving BI tools through self-teaching, and with help from the amazing data community. She went from being stuck in a cubicle, to being a team leader at one of the best BI consulting firms in the world. And she creates excellent Cat Memes!
References in this episode
Telling Ain't Training by Harold D. Stolovitch
David Churchward's SQL UNPIVOT Makes My Data Skinny blog post
Dave Grohl Explains Everlong
FREE MAIAD April Workshop
FREE MAIAD May Workshop
Episode Timeline:
- 0:00 - Krissy's history is her story, Krissy is the nicest stalker ever, and the art of self-teaching
- 23:40 - Abstract learning vs hands-on learning, the role of the community in teaching, Krissy is a Power BI Evangelist
- 45:00 - Krissy's thirst for knowledge leads her to Seattle and a moment of clarity, her transition into being a consultant and trainer at a young upstart P3 Adaptive
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome, friends. Today's guest is Krissy Dyess, one of our directors here at P3 Adaptive. And I want to say that today's episode is brought to you by the words, inspiration and human. At P3, we are in the inspiration business. Now of course, we're also in the implementation business. We're not just inspiration. Otherwise, we'd be McKinsey. Necessarily, we're in the reality business. We have to bring things to life. But in today's data landscape, the art of the possible is so much wider, so much more valuable than what it ever was before that we'd be doing a disservice to our clients if we weren't also in the inspiration business.
Rob Collie (00:00:39):
Krissy is basically the living embodiment of inspiration. Whether you're an organization plotting your course through an ever-changing landscape or an individual planning your career as a power platform professional, I think that inspiration theme will shine through as you listen to Krissy. And that second word, human that's also Krissy. You'll notice in this conversation that she keeps circling back to training.
Rob Collie (00:01:06):
And we still do training here at P3, but the majority of our business is now project implementation. But even when we're building things with our clients, we can't help it. We're always transferring knowledge. We're always teaching. We're always training and it's that human connection, the need to help, the desire to help that shines through over and over again in this conversation with Krissy. She's just an incredible person. I'm so glad that she took that leap and joined us four years ago. She's grown tremendously in her time with us and we as an organization, as a team have grown tremendously right along with her. I hope you smile as much listening to this as we did while we were recording the conversation. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:54):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:58):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:21):
Welcome to the show, Krissy Dyess.
Krissy Dyess (00:02:24):
Hi. How are you doing?
Rob Collie (00:02:26):
Oh, we're doing fantastic. This is one of those things that it's a real pleasure. I'm already like all curve ruffled. You just asked me how I'm doing and I'm like, "Shit, I'm not prepared to answer questions." I'm already failing.
Krissy Dyess (00:02:40):
It's one of those days.
Rob Collie (00:02:41):
We interact a lot because we work together.
Krissy Dyess (00:02:44):
We do.
Rob Collie (00:02:45):
I figured what we could do is we just do sort of like a story of your life type of thing today. But also we could just almost like conduct like a one on one meeting and just record it for the world. What do you think?
Krissy Dyess (00:02:55):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:02:55):
Sound good?
Krissy Dyess (00:02:55):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:02:55):
So you've been with P3 for how long now?
Krissy Dyess (00:03:00):
Ooh. It's interesting that you asked me that. I just realized yesterday I was outside in the yard, just taken in the nice spring weather and the angle of the sun felt familiar and I couldn't place it. Then all of a sudden I was thinking and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is actually four years ago that I came to P3." And the angle of the sun, I remember it. I remember it so fondly, because I don't know if I ever told you this before, but I actually did not read the book before applying to P3.
Rob Collie (00:03:37):
I'm going to give you my false gasp before there.
Krissy Dyess (00:03:42):
Did I tell you this?
Rob Collie (00:03:43):
I don't really care. It doesn't bother me. You've kept this secret.
Krissy Dyess (00:03:46):
Oh my gosh.
Rob Collie (00:03:48):
You've kept this secret all these years because you were afraid of... No.
Krissy Dyess (00:03:52):
No, no, no. It wasn't that I was keeping it a secret, but everything just kind of came together so rapidly. I was in my cubicle back in the day. I had been following the blog post for a long time, 2013. I think you could go back in the data and find my actual subscriber date. Yeah. So I've been following the blog for a really long time, and one of the blog posts came across looking for full-time consultants. And I thought, "This is it." All my energy shifted and I went to the website and filled out all the information. There was a lot of information and I was like, "Whoa, whoa. I don't know about this."
Krissy Dyess (00:04:29):
So I filled out all the information and put my resume together. Gosh, it had been many, many years. I'd been with the previous organization for 16 and a half years. I hadn't really updated my resume. I had to get that together and sent that along. And then I entered into the interview of doom process if you will. It was quite interesting. I expected it. I expected to be quizzed and grilled a bit. As I met for the first time with Kellan, it was my first ever video interview, if you will. That was new.
Rob Collie (00:05:04):
Yeah. We were video interviewing before it was cool at P3.
Krissy Dyess (00:05:07):
You were. And to be honest, I was in my cube for 16 and a half years. Really wasn't interviewing or moving anywhere. But this was really a new thing for me. How am I going to come across in an interview using video? I guess I said all the right things. And then I was notified that I would be moving on to an interview with Rob and I was like, "Oh my gosh, because I don't really have celebrities like growing up. I never really had crushed celebrities. Not that I had a crush, but this was like this person that I had been following and even some in my previous job would say stalking. They used to joke about me like stalking because I knew everything.
Rob Collie (00:05:48):
You stalked me, but you didn't read my book. I just want to point that out.
Krissy Dyess (00:05:51):
I know. I know. Right? I'm not a great stalker.
Rob Collie (00:05:55):
Well, that takes a lot effort. Who wants to read the book?
Thomas LaRock (00:05:58):
Yeah, but did she pay for the book? That's the important thing. If she paid for the book, you don't care if she reads it?
Krissy Dyess (00:06:03):
Well, honestly, I didn't know about the book. I didn't know. Clearly I was stalking. I was reading the blog. I even had read the one blog post where you were looking for people to help with the Keller version and at that point in time, I was like, "I don't get it." Right? In any case, I didn't really realize the power of the book. It wasn't communicated in the ecosystem that I had fallen into.
Krissy Dyess (00:06:27):
So I just felt like if I'm going to be interviewing with Rob Collie, the owner of the company, I should probably read the book. I actually thought I would probably get questions about the book. So I'm like, I better read the book. So the interview process, it moved pretty quickly once I made it through the screening, once I made it through the first interview. I didn't have a whole lot of time. It was like, "You're meeting with Rob."
Krissy Dyess (00:06:57):
I literally was losing my mind. I was like, "Oh, I need to create an environment that conveys that I can conduct business in a remote environment." You can see me now. I'm still in the same spot. I think I had screens. I probably put plants up, tried to look super professional. I ran up to borders and I bought the book and I came in my backyard as I like to multitask, the weather was nice. It was April. Weather was nice. The sun was out and here I was laying in the sun reading through this book.
Krissy Dyess (00:07:27):
As I kept reading, I was like, "Oh, yeah, this is cool." I had no formal training. I was self-taught. I learned a lot. I went to a lot of user groups and talked to other people. And back then, Power BI, it wasn't even Power BI, it was Power Pivot and Excel. I just sat there and I'm reading this book and so many light bulbs went off when I compared to the self-taught method versus what I actually was reading. And I was like, "Man, this would've helped me out immensely had I only had read the book when I started my journey." But I didn't know.
Krissy Dyess (00:08:04):
So in any case, I read the book, we had the interview. It went great. I got the job and I joined the team in April. It was just so interesting yesterday that I remembered that feeling and just that sense and that memory just by going outside and the angle of the sun.
Rob Collie (00:08:23):
It's so neat the things that can trigger memories, isn't it?
Krissy Dyess (00:08:26):
They say smell. A lot of times they say smell. But oftentimes, for me, it actually is time of year. Even though I'm in Phoenix now where our seasons are pretty much just hot, I always feel like this is association to the surroundings, the weather. Just how you feel. For me, that's what went through my mind yesterday and I was like, "Oh, I don't know if I ever told Rob." But I did read the book and it was great. And then after I read the book and I got the job, I was like, "Oh man, I haven't been doing this stuff right at all."
Rob Collie (00:09:00):
Well, you still got through the interview, which is no mean feat. And you talk about the lack of formal training, right? So what? No one really has any formal training. And it's not something that matters. I'm not really a fan of this band, the Foo Fighters. I'm a real Dave Grohl fan. I like that guy.
Krissy Dyess (00:09:20):
I do too.
Rob Collie (00:09:20):
It's just a video of him explaining the origins of one of his songs, Everlong. It's just him with a guitar and he's telling the story. It's just so powerful and so touching, the whole thing. He's just so authentic and so awesome. Listen, he said, "I don't have any formal training. I can't even read music."
Krissy Dyess (00:09:39):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:09:39):
And he's like, "So I can't explain to you in musical terms, what these notes are. In order to remember them, I had to go record them really quickly so that I wouldn't forget." He doesn't have notation and he is explaining to you like, "And by the way, I look at a guitar and I just see these strings down here are like the kick drum and these up here are kind of like the symbols and stuff." He's just completely transparent about it.
Rob Collie (00:10:02):
In a way, he shouldn't be here is what he's saying. But he knows he should, at the same time, there's so many interviews with him where he shares things like this and I'm not a musician.
Krissy Dyess (00:10:13):
It sounds like you could be. Actually, that's not true. I've heard some of your work.
Rob Collie (00:10:17):
You've heard some of my auto tunes singing.
Krissy Dyess (00:10:21):
I don't know. Some fantasy football thing. I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:10:23):
That's right. Including videos. Yes.
Krissy Dyess (00:10:26):
I was on the team, but I didn't do too well.
Rob Collie (00:10:30):
That's okay. That's okay. So four years ago, you made the leap, right? So what were you doing before P3? What was the nature of your job? You said you've been there for over 16 years. That had to be quite a leap.
Krissy Dyess (00:10:45):
It was. It's really interesting. That job that I was at for 16 and a half years, took me from my 20s, to my 30s and then into my 40s. I guess people can find out my age. I'm not trying to hide my age, but I'm in my mid forties now. The interesting part is as you journey through life, you are in a different place in your 20s and your 30s and in your 40s.
Krissy Dyess (00:11:07):
I started there in my mid 20s and actually, it was my first job as I relocated to Phoenix. What's really interesting was when I came to Phoenix, it was back in 2000. It makes it really easy. I've been here for 21 years now. When I first came here, I actually was exploring this idea of posting my resume online. That was new. That was really new. I had graduated college.
Krissy Dyess (00:11:35):
I had my first job and I had to choose, "Ooh, what color of resume paper," because there's the standard gray. There's also the yellow. Do you want to be a little more bold? No, no, no. People weren't ready for it back then. Right? Just the color of your resume paper, people were not ready for, right? So in any case, I came out here for the weather and I'm looking at interviewing, sending my resume out. So I did.
Krissy Dyess (00:12:00):
I sent some on some resume paper. I also faxed some of my resumes. I got the newspaper and I'm really dating myself here. Right? So I got the newspaper and I sent some faxes. I also went to the local library and I got a Yahoo account. Honestly, I got interviews from every single source. So it was like an AB kind of like test scenario, right? Like back in the day, just around getting a job.
Krissy Dyess (00:12:25):
The company that I ended up going with found me. They had recruiters. They found me, brought me in and I went into this building and I walked in. I was in my early 20s and there was all these people, and there was all these cubicles. I was like, "Wow, look at all the coders. This is amazing." Later, I found out it actually was a sales organization and the people were making calls and doing sales. They weren't coders and doing programming.
Rob Collie (00:12:52):
But it looks like programming. Right? When people come to visit us at Microsoft, it was like, there was never anything interesting to show them. If you had family in town like, "What are you going to show?" There's no assembly line, nothing. It was just like, we just go walk down long hallway of doors where some of the rooms had nerds in them, some rooms didn't. There wasn't a whole lot going on.
Krissy Dyess (00:13:17):
I mean, for me in my early to mid 20s, just coming out of college, having just one real job, I think really at that point in time, my impression, my perception was that, "Wow, these are all coders." I found out later, "No, that was at the case." And the thing that brought them in was FoxPro. Visual FoxPro was on my resume. It was a keyword that got picked up. I actually came into an analytics, strategic analytics department.
Krissy Dyess (00:13:47):
At the time, the organization had been founded. It was a startup business way before my day. The owners had started it out of their basement in fact. We were doing outbound sales for IBM, HP, Toshiba. That was the core business. We were doing analytics in that group around customer retention.
Krissy Dyess (00:14:11):
At that time, we were acquisition, penetration like all the buzzwords, right? That's essentially what the role was. We were churning through data that at the time was in Oracle and there was processes in with that department that would extract the data and we would use FoxPro. It was part of it. We would go in and we would extract the data. We built our own databases of data. And then we would build out these reports, speaking to those different key metrics, if you will, at the time.
Krissy Dyess (00:14:43):
We would create these reports every month. Every month we'd have these reports on how the business is doing and then we would layer in recommendations and strategies around how to improve key said metrics. It was really interesting because there was no SQL server then. This was random data, black and white screens. We had this analytical department that was doing this whole FoxPro.
Krissy Dyess (00:15:08):
I mean, we were like a little mini IT for, or what we were doing, like bringing in the data, creating the structure, building the reports. If you could imagine, it was extremely time consuming, extremely time consuming. After you kind of get in and you get your wings and you do that over and over again for many months, you're like, "Man, how can we do this better?"
Krissy Dyess (00:15:29):
Then also at the same time, we had another department in the organization that was building things in access. Their databases in access. And guess what, their numbers in access were different than our numbers in analytics. Right? Like surprise, surprise.
Rob Collie (00:15:44):
Of course, yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:15:46):
But they were on the reporting side and they were exploring intranets and putting the information out there for the sales side of the business. So they were pulling in data, putting it into the access, churning it out through the intranets. Cold fusion was popular back in the day. Again, I'm dating myself here.
Rob Collie (00:16:05):
You keep saying that, but we all know that I'm older than you, barely.
Krissy Dyess (00:16:09):
A tiny bit.
Rob Collie (00:16:10):
That's right. You're a youngin.
Krissy Dyess (00:16:12):
This is true. This is true. Age is how you feel. Right? Most of the time I feel pretty much like I'm still in my mid-20s.
Rob Collie (00:16:20):
Yeah, me too. Just that my body doesn't work the way it used to.
Krissy Dyess (00:16:22):
You know what though, it comes across. These body builders that start when they're 65. Women too. Maybe it's coming up on my feed and everything. It's possible, Rob is all I'm saying.
Rob Collie (00:16:34):
There's a Mr. Olympia title in my future.
Krissy Dyess (00:16:38):
It is possible. It is possible.
Rob Collie (00:16:40):
Through the power of hard work and drugs. Maybe a lot of drugs and then diet. Oh, no.
Krissy Dyess (00:16:50):
Yes. There's definitely a diet. You definitely got to have an extreme died there. In any case, the state of the union at the time that I entered into this organization, I think was probably... We were advanced, I think.
Rob Collie (00:17:02):
Yeah. I mean, 2000, right? This company was doing analytics, doing BI-
Krissy Dyess (00:17:05):
We were.
Rob Collie (00:17:07):
... in the year 2000, which by the way, is before I'd even heard the term. In the year 2000. I Was probably four years out of being introduced to this whole domain, really. I mean, I was using Excel at Microsoft at that time, but I didn't cross paths with BI and corporate analytics until probably 2004, 2005.
Krissy Dyess (00:17:26):
That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, there definitely was Excel. Excel was a part of the equation. There was outputs generated from FoxPro into Excel and then we would take that output. We would create charts. We'd create visuals. We'd prepare them into this analytics that we'd present. Ooh, even then, back then we would print it out. We would actually print these documents out. I'm talking hundreds of pages of analytical reports that I don't know. We would put them in the mail and then we would send them to the clients.
Krissy Dyess (00:17:58):
I don't know. They would read through them and then we'd have these meetings and we'd decide on such and such things, and the whole process would happen every single month. For us, like back then, this was new stuff. It was exciting. It wasn't too much longer after that. Maybe about two or three years that SQL as database storage solution entered the equation and the birth, if you will, of an IT team in the organization to streamline the data.
Krissy Dyess (00:18:27):
One version of the truth, if you will, in a SQL warehouse. And we went down that path. At the time, we did have very similar types of data coming in. We had sales data. We had call data. And it was very easy for the IT org... I say easy, like I wasn't doing it, but it was very easy for the IT team to create data warehouses with the customer table, the invoice table, all these things and replicate and populate with the data that we could use for sales reporting. We could use for analytics. That was that next evolution.
Krissy Dyess (00:19:04):
It was really the first time I went down... Well, not exactly the first time, but it was one of the first times that I went down this self-learning path. And coming into the SQL environment, database team, IT putting data out there, figuring out how do we do what we were doing in Visual FoxPro and Excel. But now over in the SQL environment. And it was slow. It was slow.
Krissy Dyess (00:19:27):
We went through basic queries like self-taught. There was no preparing the team, but there was a deadline of, "You all need to move things over and make everything work and get the same numbers and using that environment." That was one of the things that stuck in my head. Like you said, talking about self-taught versus just figuring it out. Honestly, what I've learned is that you can learn and be more productive faster with a little bit of guidance, a little bit of core training and guidance.
Rob Collie (00:20:04):
The right kind of training. Your experience reading the book that you talked about, It's actually the same as me. I would often remark to myself, I would've loved to have had this book that I'm writing when I was learning to write it.
Krissy Dyess (00:20:14):
It's true. But who does that? Who reads a technology book? Because here's the other thing. My experience was, and even with SQL, I got a SQL book and I read it and I was like, " It doesn't make sense." Until I got my hands in there and started doing things and seeing things and then piecing it together, then it makes sense. In my mind too, who reads a book on technology and gets it? There are people that are due, because everybody has a different way of learning. But I clearly cannot read a technical book and make everything click.
Krissy Dyess (00:20:48):
I need to get my hands in there. I need to touch it. I need to feel it. I need to, again, see that holistic picture. Not that I'm going to create store procedures and create views, but not just the drip method like learning, "Oh, this would be the better way to do these things." And actually prior even to coming to that organization, I learned Visual FoxPro hands on, self-taught, no Google.
Rob Collie (00:21:14):
Oh, no Google.
Krissy Dyess (00:21:17):
No Google. Yeah. You saw I pause there.
Rob Collie (00:21:18):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:21:21):
Just pause. Minds are blowing right now all over the place, right?
Rob Collie (00:21:25):
Oh my God.
Krissy Dyess (00:21:26):
Oh my God. What do you mean no Google? What is that? That was hard.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:35):
Did you just use [inaudible 00:21:37] instead?
Krissy Dyess (00:21:37):
Oh, I could have. Actually, I had a coworker that was from Nepal and he thought it was super funny to just let me get a little bit frustrated before he would kind of help me out. And that's usually what happened. But again, that was that self-learning experience. Not ideal. SQL, self-learning, not ideal. Honestly, when Power Pivot was introduced to me, it happened back in the year 2013 as our organization updated to Excel 2010, which was very advanced and very modern, and I was very thankful that I was in an organization that always looked for the newer technologies and gave us the opportunity to use the tools.
Krissy Dyess (00:22:19):
That is when I found out about this Power Pivot, and I started the Googling. At the time, the Googling there wasn't a lot of information out there. When I came across the Power Pivot Pro blog site as it was back in 2013, I started reading it. I started doing things. I didn't really put any of the connections together. Really in the early six months even to a year, I didn't really put the connection together. But I sat quietly in the cubicle and I was stalking like I'm a bad stalker.
Krissy Dyess (00:22:55):
Here's what I was watching. What I was watching was the blog posts. They went from once a month, twice a month. They started to grow. There was more of them. It was interesting to me. I still didn't really know the bigger picture, but I was pulling on little nuggets that was just enough for me in my current role, still using the SQL environment that kicked off back in my early 20s and then still using that SQL environment, competing with the analysts who are using a lot of heavy Excel. I'm competing back and forth.
Krissy Dyess (00:23:28):
I was always like, "SQL is better. Let me make your life better." But I ran into those same pitfalls of now I was in this process of writing queries and tweaking queries, and giving it to them and seeing what they were doing, and that whole back and forth thing that it was.
Krissy Dyess (00:23:45):
I slowly started watching the blogs and listening and paying attention more and realizing that there was other people out there in the universe that was experiencing something similar so much so that they created a blog. There was others. There were other are people in this space, but honestly, I honed in very quickly. I keep going back and forth because then it was Power Pivot Pro. Now, we're P3 Adaptive. But that was the place. That was the one place.
Krissy Dyess (00:24:16):
In the early days, when that light bulb went off, I reached out. I sent an email directly to Rob and I was like, "Hey, do you train?" I didn't know. I don't know if you remember that. It was a long, long time ago. I know you get a lot of emails, but I remember it because you emailed me back. I was very surprised that somebody out there in the worldwide web universe actually responded to me, right?
Rob Collie (00:24:39):
On the other side of the Google.
Krissy Dyess (00:24:40):
Yeah, right? To me, like this was like a whole new territory. People out there. And do I even want to be out there in the social and expose information, because there's all that stuff that comes with it too. But you responded and you quickly passed me over to Jocelyn. And Jocelyn sent me all the details and I exchanged some of the information with her. Ultimately, our organization didn't buy into any training as far as I know. I don't believe they still even to this day. I have tried.
Rob Collie (00:25:10):
Well, we showed them, didn't we?
Krissy Dyess (00:25:12):
Well, I try. I reach out because I still have analysts. I have analysts now. Honest to God, I kid you not, it wasn't even a couple months that I left and I came to Power Pivot Pro that the organization is like, "Hey, what is this Power BI?" I literally like gasped. I was like, "Because it was in Excel, what I was doing. I was using Excel. I was using the SharePoint Power Pivot gallery for Excel for a while, while it was compliant. Then of course there was some changes. Then I was using the one drive for distribution. It was a really awkward time. But you make it work. As soon as they saw this in this new container, they were like, "What is this Power BI?"
Rob Collie (00:25:57):
There's a theme I want to Zoom in on here, and it's a common theme for us, I think. Maybe we've never talked about it in this particular way. So there's two different kinds of learning, at least. Let's talk about two in particular. Especially in the tech space, there's a type of learning that is sort of conducted in the abstract. And it's only a certain kind of person that's interested in or can do it this way. And spoil alert, it's not me.
Rob Collie (00:26:21):
That's also not you, from what I know of you and from what you've been saying. In a way, it's almost like tech for tech's sake, this kind of learning, but you get really into the abstract concepts. So for example, if you approach decks and the first thing that you gravitate to are these concepts like filter context and row context. If those really speak to you, then you're this abstract kind.
Rob Collie (00:26:46):
Then there's the more hands on practical, what's sort of the benefit in my day to day life kind of learning. It's not really one of them is better than the other. They're just different. When you talk about the technical books, most technical books are written for that first kind of learner that abstract kind of learner. But there are so many of us out in the world that are more the hands on practical kind of learners.
Rob Collie (00:27:09):
The books just generally speaking aren't written for us, and there's more of us. But who writes the technical books? Typically, the people who are good at the tech, right? So they learn that way and that's the way that they think everybody wants to learn. So the hands on practical learners like first of all we have to stumble into a benefit. We can't go too long learning something new without there being any benefit.
Krissy Dyess (00:27:29):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:27:30):
Because then we'll give up. Right? If something doesn't have some sort of even modest payoff for us, like in the first couple of weeks of screwing around with it, we're going to lose interest. And you're talking about sort of like missing the bigger picture. Of course, that's what the hands on practical learners are going to do. Right? We're going to assemble all these little islands of benefit. We learn this trick. We learn that trick.
Rob Collie (00:27:54):
We're not putting together necessarily in the early days like the whole framework of how this thing works and the whole framework of how it's going to be different from other tools. It's just that we know that that one benefit we got. We weren't going to get that from another tool. That was magic. And slowly these islands, you start to build the bridges between them. One day like, "Ah, now I have this archipelago." And I'm starting to see the framework. I had to travel that exact road to get to the point where I could some number of years later write a book.
Krissy Dyess (00:28:24):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:28:26):
And almost had to derive the concepts of filter and row context back out into English, and then later on I go, "Oh, that's what you call that."
Krissy Dyess (00:28:35):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:28:37):
It goes back to the Dave Grohl example as well. There's no questioning that he's a fantastically successful and creative musician. How did he learn play guitar when switching from the drums? He just started thinking of it like a drum set and screwing around with it. He's come up with some very iconic sounding guitar riffs.
Krissy Dyess (00:28:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:28:55):
They're unquestionably interesting. I think there's sort of like an inherent self-judgment that a lot of those practical hands on learning types tend to inflict on themselves because they know they're not the other kind. We know we're not that other kind. We know that we're not that abstract learner.
Krissy Dyess (00:29:13):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:29:14):
And we read the books, we see the books that are written for those people. We're like, "Oh, it's very invalidating."
Krissy Dyess (00:29:19):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:29:20):
Right?
Krissy Dyess (00:29:20):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:29:21):
To experience technical content that for some reason doesn't speak to you. You're like, "What's wrong with me?"
Krissy Dyess (00:29:25):
It's true. I never even actually thought about it. I kind of have the idea of everybody learns differently. That's a message that we share in all of our trainings. I definitely appreciate, and I recognize, but I never really thought about it or heard it interpreted the way that you're speaking about it now. I do feel that sense of like, "I want to learn that way." The people that can learn that way I feel like, "Gosh," because there's so much information out there. If you could just go in and grab it and digest it, that's amazing. You could do so much. But because I do have more of that hands on applied, I need to do it wrong three times, then it's going to stick forever.
Rob Collie (00:30:04):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:30:04):
Right?
Rob Collie (00:30:04):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:30:05):
I think that also helps me to be a really good trainer is that I've done it wrong three times, and I know how you're going to do it wrong three times. I can honestly understand that perspective and the other kind, they're just amazing. They're just amazing people, and I'm not that kind. But what it doesn't mean that you can't be amazing, no matter what kind you are.
Rob Collie (00:30:30):
That's right. If you're one of the technical abstract types, one of the common weaknesses for them, it's not universal, but a common weakness for the technical abstract types is that they're not grounded enough in sort of the human reality in which the problems are trying to be solved. They still kind of want the tech to be the star. If you're going to be successful in modern BI, modern analytics, I really do think you need to be one of these tweeners. You need to be very firmly rooted in the human element. You can at least say that for the practical hands on route, that you're going to be grounded in the human reality.
Krissy Dyess (00:31:06):
That's true. That's definitely true. Honestly too, when I was back in the early days for me being that hands on learner and for not a lot of content out there, the blogs that were out there was that little bit of inspiration that kept me going to keep learning and overcome those challenges because I truly believe that I was exposed to this other universe out there. I didn't know who the people were, but I was stalking everybody and learning as much as possible.
Krissy Dyess (00:31:35):
And honestly, that little bit was enough to help me to keep going, even though I didn't understand the technical terms, the filter and all the different like language that later I found out was right there in the book. Even though I was having these challenges, not really understanding it, I knew what I was doing was better. I knew that I wanted to understand it more. And really the internet at the time in the blog post was where I got a lot of information to help that drive if you will.
Krissy Dyess (00:32:08):
It can be extremely daunting to learn a new technology, not see those immediate wins and experience that frustration just to do something super simple. It does. It takes you those couple times to drive what is the right way? And that's really where I feel like the book is very great, but our two-day training, if I could have had that in the early days, I would've done far more. Just no doubt, no doubt.
Krissy Dyess (00:32:36):
And again, that just goes back to this idea of even right now in the ecosystem, it is very different. There's almost too much information out there for people that are uncovering these tools. They go out and they do the website searches and even you start those self-guided. I run into it all the time. You start down these self-learning paths and great, but there is something about that human connection from the people that have learned these from the early days, digesting, bringing everything down to you in a rapid delivery that I think really resonates with our students.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:14):
So you two have danced around a concept without actually saying, so I'm going to say it for you. I'm sure you're aware that there's a whole science and field dedicated to education. Right?
Rob Collie (00:33:26):
Well, get out.
Krissy Dyess (00:33:28):
Wow. Mind blown.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:30):
People are in their doctorate in this stuff, right? And there's actually a love research on adult education and how you learn as an adult as opposed to a child. But there's a fabulous book out there called Telling Ain't Training. And the idea is you can't stand in front of a room, deliver a lecture from slides or whatever or have somebody just read a book and think that they are now trained in whatever aspect it is.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:59):
I've been skewered for saying this publicly, but if you're not putting your hands on something, you're not doing training. Pure and simple. You're delivering a lecture. That's fine. You're delivering a lecture, but you're not training somebody. If I tell somebody, this is how you read an execution plan, I've given the lecture. But until they have to start doing that themself and put their hands on the product, then that's when the real training begins.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:26):
You two have talked about this without actually saying those three words, and I always like to emphasize that. When people say, "Hey, come to my training event." I'm like, "Oh, they'll be hands on labs?" "Well, no. It's just me standing in front of a room. You're not training me. You're giving me information that I can then take and do my own self training. But what I want is if I'm going to a P3 Adaptive training seminar, I'm opening that laptop. I'm going to have Power BI in front of me and I'm going to be putting my hands on all the nerd knobs that I need to know in order to be effective when I go back to my employer."
Rob Collie (00:35:04):
Indeed. Indeed, you will. I think if we could adjust the title of that book, it wouldn't be as pithy. But we could give it a subtitle, Telling Ain't Training, and then parentheses for most people.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:17):
You know what? I'm going to go see if there's a subtitle. Hold on.
Rob Collie (00:35:21):
Here's the thing. I think if that were true for 100% of the world, we wouldn't have that kind of training at all. The problem is that there is this small single digit percentage of the population that actually does like to learn that way. They'd love to learn in the abstract. That's what they live for. Now, it's not most of us.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:42):
I didn't say you couldn't learn that way. We're talking about training.
Rob Collie (00:35:45):
We're not disagreeing. What I'm saying is, is that whether or not that class is judged as a success, if it's a very telling oriented, here are the concepts. Just laying them down like you would like in a math class in college, right, there is going to be some like one out of 20, five percentage group that's going to walk out of that training and would honestly have been greatly improved by it.
Rob Collie (00:36:08):
It's just the other 95% that are just feeling inadequate and they didn't really get anything out of it, but they're blaming themselves for it, because there is this other or 5% that you can see. They tend to be very visible. I completely agree. It's just that we have to acknowledge that there is a small slice of humanity for which that stuff does work, and which is what keeps this whole kind of racket going, is this 5% preaching back to themselves.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:35):
Yeah. This is where the doctorates kick in, and they have their philosophical discussions about the learning part.
Rob Collie (00:36:42):
That's right. That's right. And then those doctorates, what do they do? They all go back and teach third grade. No, they don't. They stay in the ivory tower. We stay away from those front lines, whatever you do.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:53):
But I mean, one example I always have used in the past, I should say is like in the army. They train you to use a weapon and they do that with a lot of PowerPoint and things. But you don't go into battle until you've actually fired that weapon. You don't sit there abstractly think, "Oh, I know how this gun is supposed to work. This isn't like a movie." You're actually going to put the weapon in some of these hands so they can feel it and understand what they were given as a lecture or whatever format, right?
Krissy Dyess (00:37:26):
Yeah, that's definitely true. And I think that is one of the thing that differentiates our training. We give you that experience, right? It is hands on. Not a lot of slides is the expectation that we always give at the beginning. Right? So you're immediately hands in. You're immediately working through like a real life solution. Now, you're in a training environment so that we can tee up all the things we want to teach you, and then we layer in a workshop following the training that allows you to apply what you just learned on training data to your real data.
Krissy Dyess (00:37:58):
That's always the next play, right? Just because you've attended a training, you've had some hands on. Making that translation of how does it work with what I'm dealing with, that's another part of the learning process with Power BI. And I think even too, if you're learning style is one way or the other, what really people need to take away is you're getting the ingredients, if you will.
Krissy Dyess (00:38:22):
We're giving you all the foundational ingredients, but when you go back to create or build your solution, you're going to need to create your own recipe from those ingredients. That can be a difficult concept for people wanting to learn new technology because they want to step by step. So again, by setting that expectation that these are the core things that you really need to walk away with, it sets them up for success through those workshops, the hands on aspects of it.
Rob Collie (00:38:54):
I like that approach.
Krissy Dyess (00:38:55):
Yeah, me too. That's why I love training. I get so excited. When I came on board, I got to do training, got to do consulting. It's amazing. It's been an amazing opportunity. Every single training engagement, every single student has taught me something along the way to become a better trainer. Recently, I've been doing... Once a month usually, we do these modern Excel analysts in a day workshops. They're free. We have one this month in April. We also have one in May. It's really interesting because we just kicked off this new training in December. It started in December of 2020.
Krissy Dyess (00:39:30):
And the feedback that I've been getting is really reinforcing the hands on learning pieces of that workshop. So people want more time. When we put the agenda together, we laid out the content, the information layered in with the hands on learning. Really have gotten a lot of feedback of, "Hey, instead of 30 minutes, can we have more 40, 50 minutes to work through this?"
Krissy Dyess (00:39:59):
So that's been a key takeaway that I'm bringing into each additional workshop is giving more time. Giving them more time because there's a true benefit from that experience and being able to ask questions and kind of get the... What is the overall? What is the end game? What is the overall? Let me get my hands in there. Let me try some of the button clicks. So it's been great.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:21):
Krissy, what's your title at P3? The official title?
Krissy Dyess (00:40:24):
Ooh. My official title is director of client services.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:28):
Okay. So after everything you've been talking about here, I've been listening and fascinated for a while, I've realized is, Rob, just make her your principal advocate, because she's a wonderful evangelist for everything you do there at P3 Adaptive.
Krissy Dyess (00:40:43):
I don't remember the email exchange that Krissy talked about back in the day when she still worked for the other company of inquiring about training. But I do remember the time that I met her in person, which is about four years ago.
Krissy Dyess (00:40:56):
Yes, it's true. You were in Phoenix. Are you talking about in person, in person?
Rob Collie (00:40:59):
Yeah. In person. Real in person.
Krissy Dyess (00:41:02):
Yeah. And then here's the, "Oh, Krissy, can you find a place for us to meet?" "Oh yeah, I got it. Let's do a Starbucks." I don't go to Starbucks. I don't drink coffee. This is a big deal. I haven't made a decision and we have this opportunity to meet by coincidence of the universe. Rob calls me and he is like, "So I'm at this Starbucks. It's in a grocery store."
Rob Collie (00:41:26):
I'd forgotten that one.
Krissy Dyess (00:41:27):
Do you remember that? Oh, gosh.
Rob Collie (00:41:28):
I've totally forgotten that part.
Krissy Dyess (00:41:29):
There were red flags all over the place
Rob Collie (00:41:31):
You're just like, "Oh my gosh. I hadn't read the book." That would've been okay. But doesn't know her way around coffee? I don't know.
Krissy Dyess (00:41:38):
And then to make it even more awkward, I don't even know if you remember, but we get to the right Starbucks. So there's another one right across the street. Right? Rob shows up in this fancy car. It even matched the green. And I was like, "Oh my god. Meeting with Rob at the wrong Starbucks, at the right Starbucks. Here I come in my broken down Rav. It's got dents and everything." And he pulls in, in this fancy car. It was a rental.
Rob Collie (00:42:03):
It was a rental. Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:42:04):
I didn't know.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:05):
Yeah, of course it was.
Krissy Dyess (00:42:08):
So we go into the Starbucks and he says like, "What do you want?" And I'm like, "Absolutely nothing." And then I was like, "Oh, well, this is weird. I should probably at least get a water. I don't know. Or tea. I have no idea." I don't go to Starbucks. I joke across the team. I'm not a fancy girl. I really am not a fancy girl. I'm like so not fancy that being at Starbucks was like weird for me. I'm like, oh, but I guess this is what techy people do.
Rob Collie (00:42:33):
Nothing fancier than a Starbucks, right? Teenagers in there in their pajamas and their slippers.
Krissy Dyess (00:42:39):
You're talking about somebody that had been in the cubicle environment for 16 and a half years. My team, they were excited for me. They could tell how excited I was. Nobody knew like, "Is Krissy going to be able to make it in the outside world?"
Rob Collie (00:42:56):
Outside the wire? Do you know what's out there?
Thomas LaRock (00:43:00):
There's Starbucks out there.
Rob Collie (00:43:04):
There's Starbucks out there.
Krissy Dyess (00:43:04):
There's Starbucks.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:04):
What's she going to do?
Rob Collie (00:43:06):
She doesn't even know venti from grande.
Krissy Dyess (00:43:10):
I don't.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:11):
It's like two different languages.
Rob Collie (00:43:13):
She's going to go in. She's going to order a small. You just know it. It's going to be a disaster.
Krissy Dyess (00:43:19):
This is true. This is true. But you know what? There was so many things like in the early days that I'll tell you, if I hadn't had the passion and had the opportunity that I cherished, I really did. It's the weirdest thing. I've never been a kid that's like, I am laser focused that one day I want to be X. I have never had that experience in my life. I've been raised on the, go to school, get good grades, go to college. That was the generation. Get a degree, find a job, and have a happy life.
Krissy Dyess (00:43:50):
I was never like laser focused on the company or the job, and just kind of fell into things along the way that I think really prepared me as best as possible for when this opportunity came. And it was exciting for me. It's still exciting for me. And that energy really is what got me through all the early day challenges because it wasn't easy. It still isn't easy what we do. The technology is moving so quickly. There's a lot to learn. No matter what kind of learner you are, you're still going to hit challenges and you need to be a problem solver, you need to be able to figure it out. You don't need to know everything.
Krissy Dyess (00:44:30):
I did learn that over time here. I remember when I first joined, it was very clear that there was a lot that I didn't know. But what became more clear as I delivered trainings is it was probably about the 80/20 rule. I mean, I knew probably 80% of what people were asking, but then there was always these little nuggets, that people would ask you along the way. I know you experienced this too, Rob, because that's a lot of probably the blogs.
Rob Collie (00:44:56):
Yeah. That's what the blog was being asked questions. I'd never encountered before.
Krissy Dyess (00:45:00):
Right. And because we're curious and we want to problem solve and we want to help people. I know I'm really grounded into wanting to help people. So it gives you those cha that in that cubicle environment, I really wasn't exposed to, and wasn't able to really thrive in the way that I've seen myself here in the last four years. It's just been such an incredible journey that I had no idea how incredibly life changing, all these choices that I made and all the opportunities that follow would provide for me. It's been amazing. I mean, don't get me wrong. There's the days where I'm like, "Ugh, team meeting. Get the slides together."
Rob Collie (00:45:40):
Those slides were on point yesterday.
Krissy Dyess (00:45:42):
Really, really?
Rob Collie (00:45:43):
Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:45:43):
Okay. I got a lot of feedback.
Rob Collie (00:45:45):
The PowerPoint arms race between you and Evan is taking us to new highs.
Krissy Dyess (00:45:50):
Ooh, it's a tough battle.
Rob Collie (00:45:52):
I'm starting to see it as a collaboration too.
Krissy Dyess (00:45:54):
It is.
Rob Collie (00:45:54):
That's where we become our best, right?
Krissy Dyess (00:45:56):
Oh, yeah. It is. I mean, just in the leadership role, that's been different too. Right? So I came in learning the training and consulting and then moved into the leadership role. There's been a lot of learning along the way. I anticipate I'm going to continue to learn more. It's really exciting. So advocates, spokes, whatever. I don't know, Tom, if you had a name for it.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:18):
Yeah. An advocate, an evangelist.
Krissy Dyess (00:46:20):
Evangelist.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:21):
You'd be a natural if there was ever a role like that at P3 Adaptive because you certainly communicate not just what you do, but you communicate the emotion that goes with it of how just a general positivity, the impact this has had. And Rob has talked about this as well. This is life changing for a lot of people. You were stuck in a cube for 16 years.
Krissy Dyess (00:46:42):
I wasn't stuck. I chose to be there.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:46):
But you were in a cube for 16 years and you wanted to get out. You wanted to get, as Rob said on the other side of the wire. And the thing that was there for you was Rob and Power BI, but data analysis in general. I just think that there's a lot more people like us out there that just need to hear that story being shared and knowing what's possible. Allington, he was working for Coke and he's like, "Wait? I could do Excel for a job?"
Krissy Dyess (00:47:17):
That's interesting that you hit on this. I had no idea before being on the pod, if like there was any kind of script or anything like that. Clearly there's not. But it's interesting because I had a script because I like to be prepared. It is interesting that you brought that up just organically because honestly, sitting in the cubicle world, the life changing moment, like a key life changing moment for me was that blog that went out with Matt's picture. Here's a man working at Coca-Cola, very important, lots of years experience changing his career. That was the signal that I picked up on, and at that point I started this idea in my mind that this was going to become a company, and that one day I wanted to be a part of it.
Krissy Dyess (00:48:09):
That's where this dream, if you will, of something that I wanted to do really came into my energy and my life. And I would. I would go into work and I would just do the things. I'd do them a little bit better, keep learning everything. I would come home and I would sit down on my couch, on my cell phone, because now I'm getting more advanced technologically. I would read things and keep learning. And it really started that blog post. In fact, when I joined P3, I joined in April, I think it was June, we all got together up at Seattle for the...
Rob Collie (00:48:44):
Oh, right. Yeah, the summit.
Krissy Dyess (00:48:45):
The summit. I got to meet everybody on the team that was here face to face. And we all got together in the evening. Ken Puls was there and Matt Allington was there and there was all these other people that, again, like I thought, "Who are these people? How would I ever have any contact?" And for me, even that moment was just amazing because just that story... I didn't know Matt. I didn't really know anything. That was enough for me to shift my energy, to keep going. There's been many people along the way, just in very small, they don't even know that have contributed, and I do look at every time I go to a training or anytime I do have an interaction with anyone that, "You know what, I don't know what I might say or what I might do, but if I could spark or trigger something in somebody else that would just be ultimately amazing and very rewarding.
Rob Collie (00:49:43):
Something I want to press the bold button on here is the thing that Tom was saying. We've been talking about this from the perspective of a lot of our conversations, like what makes good training? And by the way, Tom, at that Starbucks meeting, when we eventually got it together, and got our orders or whatever it was, at the end of it, I looked at Krissy and I said, "You are going to change lives."
Krissy Dyess (00:50:06):
You did. You signed my book and I went, "Oh my God, somebody said I'm going to change lives. This person is crazy."
Rob Collie (00:50:14):
Then I went and I got in my fancy rental car and I drove off into the desert.
Krissy Dyess (00:50:17):
It's true. Here's the thing it's so ironic is because I've been following the blog and stalking Rob. Not really. There's so many elements in those posts that were life that I related to in the movie themes. It's like something out of a movie. It literally that day felt like something out of a movie and that was the ultimate decision where I was like, "Okay, yep." In fact, my mom back then, she was like... I was telling her and I was so excited and she's like, "Who is this company? Do they have a physical office? I don't know that this is something you should do." I thank my mom for looking out for me, but of course then I went against her. I said, "I don't know. They don't have a building."
Rob Collie (00:51:02):
What we're going to do is we're going to go get like six bricks and some mortar and just squish them all together into a cube and say, "Yeah, we're a brick and mortar business."
Krissy Dyess (00:51:11):
Well, my mom's okay now. And everybody is okay. It's been amazing. I couldn't have written this story. It just organically came together.
Rob Collie (00:51:19):
Where we were living at that time, there was this old, like antique abandoned, 7-Eleven down the street that had some really old 7-Eleven logo from the 30s or something. It had been available and we were always thinking like, "Oh, maybe we should try to snag that and turn it into the data store or something like that." There's never really been a need for a physical office it turns out. But instead, Elon Musk's brother turned it into a restaurant.
Krissy Dyess (00:51:47):
Oh, wow.
Rob Collie (00:51:49):
Which is already closed. COVID took care of it. It wasn't particularly good either.
Krissy Dyess (00:51:52):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:51:55):
Those bastards, they stole our data store from us, the location. Anyway, back to what I really wanted to say, which was that the number one thing that I would want people listening to this to take away is that for most of us, this is what legitimacy sounds like.
Krissy Dyess (00:52:13):
Or some people say crazy.
Rob Collie (00:52:15):
Yeah. Well, okay, if that's true, then you've also come to the right place.
Krissy Dyess (00:52:21):
I think what it is like I get so excited and there's so many twists and turns. That is one of the things that I've been working on in the leadership role is you got to be clear and concise. So that's why I kind of joke there at the beginning. I definitely have so much excitement and passion over the work that we're doing, the organization that we've created. It's really easy. There's just been so many life experiences that I've been able to have the opportunity. I even remember too, going to my first training on an airplane by myself, sitting there and I would do this.
Krissy Dyess (00:52:55):
I still do this to this day, and that's why my book is all beat up. Literally, when I would go to a training, I would go through the book to refresh that perspective of what it is for a new learner.
Rob Collie (00:53:06):
To be new. Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (00:53:07):
To be new. And every single time I deliver a training event that's our curriculum, I do have that experience, and you have time on an airplane, right? I'm not a fancy girl, so I pull out the book.
Rob Collie (00:53:21):
Airplanes.
Krissy Dyess (00:53:22):
Airplanes.
Rob Collie (00:53:24):
I heard they might be making a comeback one of these days.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:26):
Magical.
Krissy Dyess (00:53:28):
I didn't sign up to travel. It said remote consultant. So my biggest worry was not having a human contact. I was used to going into the office. Anything that you come across in life, you can look at it, however you want it be. And if you're going to look at it in a negative light, that's what you're going to see, and that's what you're going to experience. I truly do believe that the energy, no matter what you're dealing with, what you're doing, whether it's data or anything, the energy that you put out and the light that you see it is going to drive that experience for you.
Krissy Dyess (00:54:05):
I find myself drawing upon that principle a lot, because life isn't easy and data and technology isn't easy, but if you make it fun and you can, it's more enjoyable and usually leads to a positive outcome.
Rob Collie (00:54:20):
Solving problems, and making improvements is fun. That's where a lot of the fun comes from.
Krissy Dyess (00:54:26):
But not when it's not working and you need it done now. That isn't fun.
Rob Collie (00:54:31):
That does get frustrating. Right? And the technical literature isn't helpful.
Krissy Dyess (00:54:37):
That's right. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:54:37):
The all function is being described as a table function and you're like what...
Krissy Dyess (00:54:43):
What? What does that mean to me?
Rob Collie (00:54:45):
WTF does table function... It's the remove filters function. Okay. Move on.
Krissy Dyess (00:54:48):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:54:49):
I just want to make sure that we really hit this right on the head, which is, it's so easy to doubt yourself coming up through anything that's even semi-technical and certainly Power BI is technical. It's so easy to doubt yourself because of the existence of that 5% that both learn and teach in the abstract. And it's so obvious to you that you're not that. This is true for me too. Right? Despite my computer science degree and having worked at Microsoft, I was kind of miscast. I was not one of the abstract ones really. I thought I was, but I learned the hard way that I wasn't.
Rob Collie (00:55:23):
So for people who are listening and who have been walking sort of a similar path, so I want those people to know that every bit is legitimate of a path. It's not even just that that path is okay or acceptable. It's actually great. It's no better or worse than the technical path. The technical path, isn't a guarantee of success. And in fact, again, like the mindset that draws you to that technical path very often distracts you from what's truly valuable. Distracts you and insulates you from the human world where you can actually have an impact.
Rob Collie (00:55:54):
So you've got something to overcome coming out of that world. Tom asked you what your title is. You're one of our directors. You're a leader at our company. And deservedly so. Imagine, and if along the way that other voice in your head had been just a little bit louder, the one that was saying. "Nah, I'm just kind of faking it." Right? If that voice had been too loud, life takes a different turn. I'm really grateful that that voice wasn't that loud.
Krissy Dyess (00:56:25):
Yeah, I'm grateful as well.
Rob Collie (00:56:26):
Everyone's got that voice. Everyone in the 95% that learns via the hands on practical way has that voice to varying strengths. Right now there's people out there that are going to be listening to this, that whether consciously or unconsciously, they're wrestling with exactly this, to put the cherry on this sundae like I sincerely believe that we are the best power BI consulting firm in the world. I believe that.
Krissy Dyess (00:56:50):
Oh, yeah. I agree as well.
Rob Collie (00:56:52):
You're one of our leaders and this is your story. So people out there are listening and this story sounds familiar to them. Here's the terrible news is that your glass ceiling, which your limits are as a professional, are you can be one of the leaders at the best firm in the world. That's going to be your high watermark. I'm sorry.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:12):
Yeah, for sure. I think a lot of us have those voices in our head. Not to say that there weren't challenges. Right? So you still have to want to overcome those challenges.
Rob Collie (00:57:22):
If that's your background, that's where you're coming from. I want you to know that you can be legitimately a leader in this space like Krissy, like you are. You're a leader at-
Krissy Dyess (00:57:32):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:57:32):
If not the best firm in the world, certainly one of the handful. And you're crucial to us. Again, imagine if you had derailed yourself. You doubted yourself, which is natural to do. I'm really grateful that you didn't.
Krissy Dyess (00:57:46):
Well, thank you. And I'm grateful that I didn't either, because it has been an amazing opportunity. One of the things that I do appreciate in this leadership role, in this company that we're creating is not only are we a new type of consulting firm. Even our leadership it's so night and day, just so night and day. We are encouraged to bring ideas, be our true authentic self. Having that ability to be able to connect and share in a safe environment, I think has allowed us to put ideas out there, try them.
Krissy Dyess (00:58:24):
If they're working well, fantastic. If we need to modify them, we can change them. And we quickly do that. We just operate very differently than what I've experienced in traditional environments and with traditional leadership roles. I do think that truly makes us a different organization. I get so excited too, as we start to grow. So now we're growing the team. what is our future? What are we going to look like? And just let's stay away from the things we all know that are not great.
Krissy Dyess (00:58:55):
As a leader, we get to contribute and drive that and make sure that we're all synced up and on the same page, rowing at the same direction. And that's where we're at right now. We're all rowing the same direction. You can really tell.
Rob Collie (00:59:07):
Yeah. I mean, even with the PowerPoints.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:09):
Who knew you could put a cat meme.
Rob Collie (00:59:11):
And nail it.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:11):
And nail it.
Rob Collie (00:59:12):
Who says you can't lead off a team meeting with a cat meme? We're not the company that's going to say no to that.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:18):
You maybe should, but nobody has yet. So I'll embrace it. I'll embrace it as long as I can.
Rob Collie (00:59:23):
Well, as you said, it's an AB kind of thing, right? We run a few cat memes to start out and it doesn't seem to be working, well, we're not going to cat meme it anymore.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:31):
Well, you notice when there was like the little technical glitch and there wasn't the cat meme, the demand already increased. People were looking for it.
Rob Collie (00:59:39):
You just got to keep people hungry every now and then. You're expecting cat meme, but no cat meme for you today.
Krissy Dyess (00:59:46):
That actually just kind of creeped in. Honestly, it's just kind of in my way, I think in the cubicle world, when you're having a bad day. If you're having a bad day, you could always go out and find a fun cat meme to pass around with your coworkers. And yeah, I kind of trickled over when I started doing blog posts. And apparently it's still sticking around like I said. It makes it fun.
Rob Collie (01:00:06):
We enjoy ourselves on the team meetings. That's for sure. When Kellan was a guest on here, he said that something that I very much agreed with which is that in your first six months working here, the pace and variety of problems that you get exposed to is just so much more concentrated. It's like pressing this fast forward button on life. So much exposure to so many different industries. So many different types of problems and different kinds of questions and everything that you grow just a tremendous amount, even just in that first six months.
Rob Collie (01:00:38):
It's also challenging. Right? It's fun. If it were easy, it wouldn't always be as much fun. How much do you remember about that mythical first six months?
Krissy Dyess (01:00:48):
Yeah. How much do I remember? I've been to my therapist and I try to suppress a lot of those feelings. They're slowly reemerging. It went very quickly from super excited to here's my first project. It was tough. At that time, I actually was more comfortable, had been more comfortable in the Excel, Power Pivot side of things. Of course, my very first project was in a Power BI desktop environment. Back then, you didn't have the ability to go into the grid and filter.
Rob Collie (01:01:22):
Yeah. It was a big, big limitation. This is the big problem.
Krissy Dyess (01:01:26):
That was huge when they finally worked that out, because I honestly found myself taking Power BI solutions moving them back into Excel where I felt comfortable to work through them, which it wasn't the greatest way to do it, but that environment was just so night and day and limiting with having to drag and drop. You're talking to somebody who's like a SQL background and likes to just type in and not have to navigate the UI.
Krissy Dyess (01:01:54):
I appreciate the UI. It's super helpful. The power query side of things, you can do so much easier. Things like unpivoting data versus SQL. Ever do that in SQL? It's not fun.
Rob Collie (01:02:05):
No, I haven't.
Krissy Dyess (01:02:06):
Oh, really?
Rob Collie (01:02:07):
I'm aware of it. We had a blog post on it that was written by David Churchward. SQL UNPIVOT Makes My Data Skinny was the title of it. But I wasn't even aware of it that unpivot existed in SQL until he brought that up.
Krissy Dyess (01:02:19):
Yeah. It does, but it's terrible and nobody wants to do that when you have Power Query and you can just click two buttons. So again, you have to look at the pros of different things. I would even say first couple weeks, one of the first things I did was come to one of the trainings. So I had a project. It was really challenging. I overcame it, but I did need to get a little bit of help from Kellan and the team. In fact, when I reached out to get a little bit of help, at first, I tried to do my due diligence because I'm like, "I got to solve it. It's my first project. I can't like fail on the first project and reached out to Kellan."
Krissy Dyess (01:02:53):
He was like, "Yeah, I don't know. This is one of the hardest decks things I've ever seen in my life." And I was like, "What?" I was thinking, "Well, I guess that's the job. People are coming to you with the most challenging problems. Yes, we do run into them. But as I later found out that a lot of the work was 80% of what I did know and there were these nuggets that I was learning along the way, but the early days for me were very, very challenging.
Krissy Dyess (01:03:19):
I did come to one of the training events. It was up in Chicago. In fact, I didn't even have all the details, and I thought that was part of seeing if I could figure it out. So I'm down at the front desk, "Hey, is there some Power BI training here?" And they're like, "Yeah. It's over here." So I came and I actually got to sit through one of the trainings.
Krissy Dyess (01:03:40):
I think even after the training Kellan said to me, "Do you think you could do this?" I thought, "Well, yeah." But I didn't even know that's what I was signing up for. I didn't know." I don't think the organization knew exactly either. Right?
Rob Collie (01:03:54):
Those were still some very early formative years for the organization.
Krissy Dyess (01:04:02):
Oh, and then one of my other favorites was this thing we had that was office hours and I got to pilot that. Oh yeah,
Rob Collie (01:04:09):
Yeah. So you get to be part of that failure. Right? Which had nothing to do with you. It was just a tough idea.
Krissy Dyess (01:04:16):
It was a tough idea. Actually, it happened recently. I was sifting through some of our Salesforce data and I came across that product offering and I went, "Ooh." Then I saw my name stamped across it. I didn't know. Nobody told me. It was like a terrible experiment to do it to somebody like me.
Rob Collie (01:04:33):
It wasn't nice. We feel bad about it. I feel bad about it.
Krissy Dyess (01:04:37):
To be honest, it helped me to grow because every day I'd look at my calendar and what I need to work on. And I'd see my office hours on the schedule, and I'd get the tummy ache. I'm like, "Deep breaths. I'm going to get through it." Because what it was, it was to help support people after training. They definitely had questions and needed help. We had some of the early adopters. They had some pretty deep questions in the service that we would provide. It was a round Robin. You showed up. You had no idea their data, their industry. You hadn't worked on any projects with them. And they would literally just come to you with all these questions.
Krissy Dyess (01:05:18):
Even, I think in the early days, there was questions around mobile. Integration with mobile and best practices around mobile. What I started to do was just get a heads up. I created a funnel that for these services, I would get a little bit of a heads up of what is your team wanting to talk to? Because a lot of it, I had to research. I mean, it was just so new. They didn't know. I hadn't been exposed. But again, it gave me that opportunity to look at what they were asking.
Krissy Dyess (01:05:46):
In a lot of these, they ended up moving into more projects for us because they weren't a simple five-minute answer. Oh, here's the whatever button. It was some pretty deep stuff, especially in the financial space. Some sophisticated things that they were trying to do. Yes, we could do them, but could I answer it without getting my hands in there and doing some things, which is what I found I would do after hours for free. Then Kellan told me that we were a business. So that model didn't work really well.
Rob Collie (01:06:13):
Yeah. It was an experimental product. It sort of goes back to that thing that you were saying, which is as a team, as a business, we're willing to try things out.
Krissy Dyess (01:06:20):
Yes. But nobody told me until after the fun was had. They're like, "Oh, yeah. That was impossible. Nobody could have did that."
Rob Collie (01:06:28):
It's introduced to you as, "This is the thing that we're going to do now." Right?
Krissy Dyess (01:06:32):
I thought this is my job. I have no idea.
Rob Collie (01:06:34):
But actually we thought it was going to work. And it turns out that just a very product. It doesn't actually address the needs that the client actually has.
Krissy Dyess (01:06:44):
It's true.
Rob Collie (01:06:44):
It sounds like it does, but it doesn't. And that mismatch in addition to the random, constantly being hit from the flank was something you didn't expect. It's probably one of the most difficult things we ever could have assigned to you.
Krissy Dyess (01:06:58):
It was. It was, but at the same time I knew it, and I would. I would kind of be like, "Oh, dear God. How am I going to make it through?" But I did. And even in a challenging situation, I did make it through. I did bring back answers. I didn't have a lot of them immediately, but I added so much into my toolbox because I felt like all these things that they wanted to know, I would answer what I could. And then I would research and find the answers to the things that I couldn't.
Krissy Dyess (01:07:31):
It was an interesting time. A lot of excitement out there. A lot of people really excited about the tools, wanting to learn things. Most of those answers I would know easier, but at the same time, there was a lot of just really more complex things. And that's also what I learned in some of the early days is people come to you with their simple problem, right? It's only going to take... It's easy. It should be easy, especially for an expert. And there's always more to it.
Krissy Dyess (01:07:59):
Even now. Even in the landscape now, if you go into any model and you just want to make a simple change like you introduce a new field and it needs to flow in and it affects some other business roles. There's a lot of dependencies around things that are built and you might think to yourself, "Oh, this is just a simple modification." But where you start to see it trickle through, it does take a little bit of time. And the benefit is that, yes, it does take a little bit of time, but once you've brought it in into that living, breathing, growing solution, it's there forever. And you don't have to worry about at it again.
Krissy Dyess (01:08:35):
So there's always a little bit of a time investment in things. It can be a little bit tricky to make something that should seem simple, like integrate in, but at the same time you do it one time and then you're good to go. So it's super amazing.
Rob Collie (01:08:48):
That's sort of like being good to your future self. It's kind of like what Power BI is, is put in a little bit of time now, and recoup all kinds of time later. It's not just about time savings. Of course, it's how you feel as a human. And it's also that if you save enough time, you make more time. You actually start doing things that you never did before. It's not that you're doing the old things faster, you're doing better, smarter things that would've never even occurred to you to attempt when you're more labor constrained on things.
Krissy Dyess (01:09:18):
That's exactly right. It's interesting. I've done a lot of trainings and you go in, and you start delivering the trainings. One of the things that I usually... It'll make its way in is this idea that I actually do not consider myself technologically savvy. I'm never one of those people that goes out and gets the newest widget or whatever. I just I'm not. I'm not a fancy girl.
Krissy Dyess (01:09:45):
People will look at me when I say this, right? "What do you mean, you're not technically savvy? You're up here, you're teaching, you're providing instruction on a very sophisticated technical solution." I feel like that's one of the key takeaways in addition to the training. One of the key takeaways that I want them to understand is if you don't think of yourself as being able to do this, you must certainly can. Yes, I do have the technical background with SQL and things like that. And been working around data for a long time. But at the same time, I'm not super technically savvy. I just am not.
Rob Collie (01:10:24):
That resonates with me. Even when you were using SQL in your former job, I can't imagine you ever introducing yourself to anyone and describing yourself as like a SQL developer.
Krissy Dyess (01:10:38):
This is true. In fact, when I would try to explain what I would do, a whole bunch of words would come out and they wouldn't make sense and people are like, "Okay. I don't really have any understanding what you're doing." I'm actually technology adverse is really the term that I use. I feel like maybe you relate to that a little bit, Rob. Every time we have a new system and our company and our organization, you're like, "Oh no. Well, what is this? What buttons do I need to click on?" It'd be fine.
Krissy Dyess (01:11:01):
They are really great nowadays with tutorials. But everybody's got to move very fast. I don't have time. So the small little nugget tutorials work really great. It takes me a minute to go in and get my bearings. And it's best done with like, "Focus me to the areas that I care about. Give me exposure to where other things are that I might need, so I'm aware." That's how I describe myself as this technology adverse. I can get in. I can figure it out.
Krissy Dyess (01:11:33):
But when you send me something new and in fact, even Power BI, this whole monthly release cycle, when that started, talk about having to get comfortable, being uncomfortable. I would go to a training one week. I've locked it down. I got my flow. Then the next week they would just do something that... I would joke a class. I would say, "Actually, this is the first time I'm actually seeing this tool." Because sometimes I felt like that because you get in, you get used to your routine. You're moving and going through the motions. And now you're like, "That button is not there anymore. They're calling it something different." Then you had the people with the different versions and things like that.
Rob Collie (01:12:13):
I'm having this vision right now of the engineering team at Microsoft who has moved the button that you've been relying on. Right? They've got like some like closed circuit TV feed of your training. The moment you go looking for the button and you can't find it, they're all just sitting there going, "Got you."
Krissy Dyess (01:12:30):
But here's the thing .I recognize that was the direction that technology was going. I've been in it. I can do it. It makes sense to me. I've been grounded in technology. I also have a feel for end users and interaction with technology. Even though I don't call myself tech savvy, I had make a decision. Am I going to just be an old dinosaur in a cube or do I want to embrace what is going on? That was a tough decision to make. I share that story with a lot of people that are on this journey or thinking about even entering the landscape in 2021, right?
Krissy Dyess (01:13:14):
There's just a lot out there. It can be very daunting. But you can make a choice. And one of the things that I like to just convey is I definitely thought of myself as somebody technology averse. I definitely made a choice to just go with the flow. And it's okay. I learned to just adapt and get used to it and just roll with the changes. That's one of the great things about being a bit older. You have a lot of life experiences.
Krissy Dyess (01:13:38):
It led me down this path of embracing it. I can also set that expectation and communicate that message to other people as they're thinking about... Even right now with COVID, a lot of people are trying to educate themselves on different areas. I just talked to somebody that I connected with over the summer. It was a women's leadership group and just sent a, "Hello. How are you doing?" She said she was education and she actually made a transition into data and analytics.
Rob Collie (01:14:08):
Awesome.
Krissy Dyess (01:14:09):
Yeah. So I'm living proof, if nothing else. I have a lot of valuable information. I feel like I have walked that journey. And guess what, if you're just even a little bit better than me, you've got no problem. That's all I got.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:24):
That's all you got?
Rob Collie (01:14:25):
That was amazing.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:29):
That's all I have.
Rob Collie (01:14:31):
That's all I got to say about that.
Krissy Dyess (01:14:32):
That's about it.
Rob Collie (01:14:34):
I mean, holy hell, I've never heard you say those things so explicitly before.
Krissy Dyess (01:14:40):
Yeah. You should come to one of my trainings.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:42):
Evangelist.
Krissy Dyess (01:14:43):
I know, I understand people that have sat in a similar seat and I know what's possible for these people. They ultimately have to do it, right? They ultimately have to do the work and have to navigate their path, but it's for sure possible.
Rob Collie (01:15:03):
There was a part of what you were saying that really struck me as being very similar to an explicit decision that Tom made in his career. This is like one of your core themes, Tom, is that you were at one point... You talked about in our very first podcast, the inaugural podcast of Raw Data, that you were a storage professional, and you made the explicit decision to transition, at least partly into analytics because you saw where the wind was blowing.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:31):
Yeah. You said storage, and you made me think I was a...
Rob Collie (01:15:34):
That's right.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:35):
... like a server admin for a second. I'm like, "Wait." Or a janitor.
Rob Collie (01:15:40):
That's what...
Krissy Dyess (01:15:41):
I definitely was thinking janitor there.
Rob Collie (01:15:42):
That's what happened in our first podcast as well. I used the word storage and you recoiled a little bit. And then he went, "Ah, I guess you're right. I guess that does... Yeah."
Thomas LaRock (01:15:51):
And you are right, because that's how you think of...
Rob Collie (01:15:55):
Someone's got to write the data down somewhere. So if I'm going to analyze it later, someone better be storing that shit.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:03):
So earlier you had mentioned how Rob, it was four years before you even heard the term BI.
Rob Collie (01:16:10):
Yeah. From when Krissy was doing it. She was doing this four years before I even could spell it.
Krissy Dyess (01:16:15):
I was doing it. I was already doing it.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:17):
So in that timeline, I exist and I'm at events that are, let's say, SQL server focused. We'll call it SQL server forward. But there would be a track that was called BI and data warehousing. Those two had to go together because you couldn't just have a track that said business intelligence, because what the hell would that be doing at a SQL server event? So you had to have the data warehousing and the name just to legitimize it in front of that group. And to me, that was a track that I was just like, "Yeah, whatever's happening over there. I'm just going to go look at some query plans." That was my world.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:55):
And now like Krissy, I have a degree in mathematics. I forget when it happened, but when I first made the connection as to what they were calling data sciences, the stuff I had been doing rather easily for a long time, and I have a master's in mathematics and all of this stuff, I'm looking at going, "Oh, hell, I used to really enjoy this stuff. I can do this again. Everything old is new again." I can start getting involved in data science projects. And I don't know, start to enjoy some of the things I'm doing.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:32):
For example, I Kaggle. I love Kaggle and the stuff that you can find on their website. They had competitions. Rob, you'd like this. They had the data science competitions. The men's and women's bracket and you had to build a predictive model for any possible match up for all the teams that were seated in this year's tournament and predict who would win. [inaudible 01:17:55] score is how they score everything. I had fun building the model, submitting the prediction and seeing how awful I am at this. But it was fun.
Rob Collie (01:18:05):
The real world is a real pain in the.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:07):
See how much more fun that was than picking up the phone. And somebody complaining that some disc somewhere was full and I just go delete some data. What the hell am I doing anyway? You're like, "What? Who is this?"
Rob Collie (01:18:19):
Have you ever get tired of the head geek business, or is it chief geek? I forget. Is it head geek or chief geek?
Thomas LaRock (01:18:25):
It is head geek.
Rob Collie (01:18:26):
Head geek. Okay.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:27):
And I'm not tired of it yet because it's still the doesn't feel like work.
Rob Collie (01:18:31):
Okay. Well, that's good. But if you ever get tired of it, I want you to derive some inspiration from Krissy's story here. Maybe you can come put that math degree to good use. Or you could just go back to your Kaggle exercises.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:43):
Some of those competitions have some money behind them.
Rob Collie (01:18:46):
They totally miss the Kaggle exercises.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:47):
Now, I did miss it. I did miss it. I'm just letting it go. I'm letting it go right by, Rob.
Rob Collie (01:18:55):
Because Rob is a 12 year old.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:58):
I saw it. I heard it. I watched it go by like a parade. I smiled, I waved, and I let it go.
Rob Collie (01:19:05):
Clearly you've been trained in meditation. So that is the thing you're supposed to do with your thoughts. Oh, look at that happy little thought going by. Just let it go. Look at that.
Thomas LaRock (01:19:12):
It's like a fish. I see the worm on the hook and I'm like, "Yeah, but that's a trick. I ain't going there."
Rob Collie (01:19:18):
Don't do it for that. Yeah.
Krissy Dyess (01:19:20):
Actually, I had another thought too, just like thinking about how things were and where the future was going. And another reason that drove me to this whole remote consultant type of a role, I always had this theory, I think it was probably back around 2010, that what we would see in the future... I have kids. So let me just bring everybody back in. I have kids. I have two boys. I got a 13 and I have an 11-year-old.
Krissy Dyess (01:19:48):
I think about their future, and I think about my journey. I think about those pivotal things that led me on a path and the people along the way. As I'm thinking about my kids and thinking about the future, I started thinking to myself like the future is going to be very different. Even in terms of education, my friends say, "You're crazy."
Krissy Dyess (01:20:09):
I'm like, "No, I don't really think kids are going to need college in the future." I kept throwing that out there. And that was another reason why I wanted to take this journey and take this step, because back then in 2017, I was doing remote in the organization a couple days in the office, a couple days from home. But this idea of connecting with other people that are really driving change in leadership and doing work differently.
Krissy Dyess (01:20:36):
I started to envision this network of remote workers and remote people that would Excel and create communities. And they exist. They exist out there. I started thinking about, I want to get into this just to prove my kids that anything is possible. As they're working on their life path, just to be that role model, if you will, to represent something that was different and unknown, and to just plant the seed with them, that it doesn't necessarily mean you need to go to college.
Krissy Dyess (01:21:08):
Because look at me, yes, I went to college and I had my job. I learned this power pivot tool myself, not in any kind of training program. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to do it and to have the data to work with and things like that. Definitely for the future, I don't know that they're going to need to do college. If you can get out there in this Kaggle, these other different types of competitions, there is opportunity abound that you can go out. There are people that are willing to mentor you to help you.
Krissy Dyess (01:21:44):
It's interesting because I offer like I'm a very open, helpful kind of person. I put it out there with a lot of the training and workshops. I do. I get people that connect with me on LinkedIn and maybe ask me some questions, but I would expect more people to take me up on it that I actually do.
Krissy Dyess (01:22:05):
I think it's one of the things too that I found as I came into this community, how willing people were to help each other. It was different than the competitive. There's still competition, but it's a very different landscape and ecosystem. Even this last year, like here, I thought I was like light years ahead, this visionary of wanting to get this experience, right?
Krissy Dyess (01:22:28):
Now, we've all been catapulted forward into it. I still feel like other organizations aren't thriving in this culture. It takes a while. It takes a while to navigate it, get comfortable, really be able to excel. You've taken away those opportunities to just ask quick questions of each other. Yeah. You can kind of do it on Slack. But it's different.
Krissy Dyess (01:22:48):
I still feel like even more so the future for people coming out of college or even considering changing their career because of everything that happened. There's a lot of opportunity out there to get free data samples, to find somebody to help mentor you, to give you some guidance. And that might be all you need to land that first opportunity that takes you to the next.
Krissy Dyess (01:23:12):
Again, you might not know how you're going to get from A to Z, but if you do a tiny bit over the course of 365 days, you're somewhere versus doing nothing. And then you never know what could be. And it's still early. It's so early with these tools, and they're branching out all over the place. The cloud, solutioning. Just even how do you take processes and transform them into those action loops? It's still early and pioneering the best ways affecting large organizations.
Rob Collie (01:23:47):
I'm really glad we took that little side loop.
Krissy Dyess (01:23:49):
I got many side loops. It's just like, which one do you want?
Rob Collie (01:23:55):
Where organisms comprised mainly of side loops. Yes.
Krissy Dyess (01:23:58):
I have so many side loops. I have to laser focus in, I meet with the directors. And we have a lot of fun. Every appreciates everybody for their strengths and their weaknesses. So it's super fun. I'll often joke after a long monologue, there's some good nuggets. Go in there and find them and pull them out.
Rob Collie (01:24:15):
Yeah. We'll grab them. That sort of like viewing the future as kind of like a malleable entity is a really, really valuable mindset. If you wake up every day expecting that today will be like yesterday, and it will, it'll resemble yesterday, won't it?
Krissy Dyess (01:24:32):
That's true.
Rob Collie (01:24:34):
But over the course of, you talked about like a little bit of change in yourself over the course of a year piles up, a little bit of change in the world over the course of a year, also piles up.
Krissy Dyess (01:24:40):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:24:41):
And you can end up in a dramatically different place one year later, as we've seen. I think I really benefited from being close to my grandparents growing up because they lived through times of tremendous change. They weren't programmed by their early formative experiences to expect stability. Everything was always changing underfoot. They were born before the Great Depression who were old enough to experience the bottom falling out. Old enough to see like the world go to war with itself in a way that even the ancients would've looked at and had their breath taken away.
Rob Collie (01:25:16):
The whole world reorganized in the space of five years. It's crazy when you think about it, how short World War II was? They spent so much time with me growing up, and a lot of that I think rubbed off on me. One of the books that didn't sell very well, I dedicated it to them at the beginning. I think it was something like, thanks for teaching that four-year-old boy to color outside the lines. The generations that followed them did get to expect stability.
Krissy Dyess (01:25:40):
That's true.
Rob Collie (01:25:41):
I think we're coming back around to one of those white waters where things are going to change rapidly in a short period of time.
Krissy Dyess (01:25:48):
I agree. I don't even know what changes to expect on the horizon. I try to take all the data in and process it. It's really hard to predict. I do feel like the future is very uncertain, but what I have feel like I've also learned from previous generations very close to my grandparents as well is somehow they all got through it and they're doing okay. That's what comforted me through everything that happened last year is just their resolve through what they had been through and that everything is okay. But you do need to evolve and adapt because some people are not evolving and adapting and that's sad. So we won't go there.
Rob Collie (01:26:29):
Krissy, I've really enjoyed this. I've known you for four years. And yet I feel like... I don't feel like, I know that I got to know you even better just during the course of this conversation. So many things I didn't actually know about you that we talked about for the first time ever.
Krissy Dyess (01:26:41):
Well, that's great. Yeah, we worked to together, but we're both very busy. I definitely could come back. I could come back.
Rob Collie (01:26:48):
You're not out of words, are you?
Krissy Dyess (01:26:49):
I am not out of words. Anybody that knows me, there are more words. Are there words that everybody wants to hear? Again, there's good nuggets in there.
Rob Collie (01:26:58):
Krissy Dyess on podcast. It's a sustainable industry.
Krissy Dyess (01:27:02):
Actually, you know what, it could be.
Rob Collie (01:27:04):
Thanks again. I really enjoyed it. Thank you, Tom.
Thomas LaRock (01:27:06):
Krissy, wonderful to meet you.
Krissy Dyess (01:27:07):
Thank you. Have a great day.
Announcer (01:27:09):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com Have a data day!
Gordon Rowe III's nickname among his peers is The Gandalf of Data, and for good reason-he's truly a wizard when it comes to the unconventional tools that he uses. What he does with the 2010 version of PowerPivot will blow your mind! He works in the nursery and horticulture space with North Creek Nurseries. Gordon knows his woody plants...and his DAX!
References in this episode:
The Excel Addict
Longwood Gardens Highline Gardens in New York Rob's Scatter Chart Blog Post Episode Timeline: * 4:50 - Gordon's plant-based journey, the wonder of discovery through PowerPivot and DAX, and how Gordon was (and still is) excelling despite using older tools * 29:30 - Why NOT Power BI for Gordon? More problems for Gordon to solve, and the cannabis industry * 48:25 - North Creek Nursery history, the state of P3 Adaptive, the nursery industry during COVID, and data artistry
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Today's guest is Gordon D. Rowe, III. GDR III, as we call him sometimes. I've known Gordon for at least eight years. We met over the internet during the earliest days of my blogging. And there's something truly remarkable and beautiful about this human being. I'm going to say something that sounds dramatic, and I do not say it lightly. I don't think anyone personifies the Power BI spirit more than Gordon.
Rob Collie (00:00:30):
On one hand, he has this distinctly every man quality to him. He's in the trenches. He's humble. He deeply connected to the human beings around him. And at the same time, there's this can do spirit to him. This ambition, this powerful idea that we can do better. No one ever gave Gordon a badge that said leader on it. He was on the front lines and he just rose to the occasion. It's been super gratifying for me to watch Gordon over the years, how much he's changed his own life, but also how much he's changed and improved the lives of people around him.
Rob Collie (00:01:11):
I really just don't think that stories get better than this. And there's a punchline. This person who personifies the Power BI spirit as well, or better than anyone doesn't even use Power BI. Gordon has been stuck for almost the entirety of that journey with the 2010 version of Power Pivot and he's been killing it. This poor guy doesn't even get to use Power Query. He is finally just now getting access to the more modern tools and it's like, "Okay, stand back." I think everything I've said in this intro will shine through when you listen to the conversation. The chat takes some very interesting turns.
Rob Collie (00:01:52):
This guy works in the industrial wholesale horticultural nursery industry. He uses [DACs 00:01:59] to grow plants. Of course I had to ask him about the impact of the exploding cannabis industry in the United States. He doesn't grow cannabis, but spoiler alert, cannabis is so strong. It even impacts people who aren't growing it. I was part of this conversation, but even I am excited to listen to it. So let's push play.
Announcer (00:02:22):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:02:26):
This is The Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast, with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:50):
Welcome to the show. GDR III, Gordon Rowe, how are you today?
Gordon Rowe III (00:02:55):
I'm great. How are you doing Rob?
Rob Collie (00:02:56):
Fantastic. You and I talked about doing a podcast a long time ago, and here we are. We're finally doing one.
Gordon Rowe III (00:03:03):
Yeah, we did.
Rob Collie (00:03:04):
For those listening, Gordon here is one of the OG crew. He's been around the Power Pivot and Power BI thing as far as I can tell, since damn near the beginning. He's one of those early crazies. I was just telling someone today about how the people that flocked to this stuff like in the early 2010s, ironically, I knew that it was a big deal because I had walked my particular path in my career. It was easy for me to understand how I could see something like this as being a really big deal.
Rob Collie (00:03:32):
But as I look back years later, I wonder about y'all, the others who hadn't walked that path. How did you guys know? You guys are just crazy. The OG, that first wave, just nut cases. What's up with you?
Gordon Rowe III (00:03:44):
How did I find Power Pivot? I was the subscriber way back. The first time I got introduced to Excel, I was working for the [inaudible 00:03:53] pile company, which is the largest. They had the most number of wood plant patents in the world at the time.
Rob Collie (00:04:01):
Woody plant patents.
Gordon Rowe III (00:04:03):
Woody plants, yeah. Roses. They're a big rose company, and I got my first copy of Excel because I had to publish our availability for the salesman in it, and I didn't know anything and I signed up for this newsletter, The Excel Addict, Francis Hayes.
Rob Collie (00:04:19):
Okay.
Gordon Rowe III (00:04:19):
I had some problems along the way, just figuring some stuff out and he called me back. I emailed him and he called me back. This would've been like 1998, '99. And then in one of his newsletters, he talked about [Chandu 00:04:37], I believe, and you had like three little sub classes in the Chandu course. It was many years down the road, but I was like, "This would be good. I've taught myself all these little bits and pieces. I should take a course and learn the rest of the stuff."
Rob Collie (00:04:56):
Learn all the things.
Gordon Rowe III (00:04:57):
Learn all the things. Yeah, exactly. And I had to lobby heavily to spend whatever it was, like probably 600 bucks or something was ridiculous. Because we're dirt poor farmers, making low to no margins every other year.
Rob Collie (00:05:11):
You're telling me that there isn't just an absolutely gangbusters intellectual property business around these woody plant patents?
Gordon Rowe III (00:05:18):
Oh they have gangbuster. But this was like I had moved on and was at another nursery, and nursery industry is largely like a lot of farmers are, it's feast or famine. They have like bumper crops and bumper years, and then they lose money the next year. So it's like a break even over time kind of detail. And I successfully lobbied to take that course. And in there I discovered Power Pivot, and after that first introductory class, I remember going to Tim, our COO and saying, "This shit is going to blow the effing doors off of data for us. I can't imagine. I can't even comprehend what I'm going to do with this."
Rob Collie (00:06:01):
And what did he say?
Gordon Rowe III (00:06:02):
And he's like, "Get to it." And I got cut loose because I needed to layer music and smoke freely and do all, yell and talk to myself and curse and there was no way I could do that in the office setting and I went home. And I was buried at home for, I don't know, like two months, two and a half months. I was just like, I'd go to work and be like, "Look at what I got." And there'd be a grid with sales data. And I'm like, "It's not right yet. I got to filter this, this and this out."
Gordon Rowe III (00:06:33):
And what really, really catapulted me is that I struggled with calculate and some date stuff, and I was probably like four weeks into it, and I really wanted that time intelligence. That's huge for us. I reached out to you. Your email address was like footnote in the Chandu thing. And I sent you a model and you replied. I still have that email. I cherish it. Because you said this was actually tricky. Your date was coming in from SQL as a text field, so I had to change it to a date value in here. And it should work for you now, and you were like, "That's nursery data. Pretty cool. The first time I've seen that."
Rob Collie (00:07:20):
And I think the last, actually. I don't think I've, other than you.
Gordon Rowe III (00:07:25):
Yeah, I asked you for plants and ended up sending your dad some stuff.
Rob Collie (00:07:30):
Yeah, my dad, you're just like, "Hey, do you like growing stuff?" And I'm like, "Hell no, but my dad does." And so you sent some seedlings, right?
Gordon Rowe III (00:07:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:37):
To my dad. And he planted them. My dad's got a heck of a yard up in Boston.
Gordon Rowe III (00:07:42):
That's where it began for me.
Rob Collie (00:07:45):
That was back in the time when people would send me stuff like that and I actually had time to respond, oh a new puzzle. Let me get after that. And oftentimes it would turn into a new blog post or something like that. I'd anonymize the data in a way to conceal what the actual business problem was. But just to extract the pattern and stuff. It was actually difficult for me at some point to stop answering those brain teasers people would send me. That was one of the things I enjoyed the most and I just ran out of time eventually. So it's cool that we crossed paths when we did.
Gordon Rowe III (00:08:14):
Yeah. It only makes sense that that'd be the natural progression for you. And I just converted, it took us forever, so I've been working on Excel 2010 since then until the last two months, three months.
Rob Collie (00:08:28):
You've been stuck in the 2010 version of Power Pivot.
Gordon Rowe III (00:08:31):
I've been stuck in the 2010 version of Power Pivot since 2013. My first models are dated this 2013 and-
Rob Collie (00:08:39):
Wow.
Gordon Rowe III (00:08:39):
... I've been stuck there.
Rob Collie (00:08:41):
So you don't even get the good Power Query?
Gordon Rowe III (00:08:43):
No, no. I just got them all converted. I have one left that I'm... because we migrated the servers, everything, so I just have one model left to repoint, clean up and then it's so bad. The shit I did back then was the stupidest, rookiest, worst shit ever. I was trying to get rid of a today table that I created, so that I could have today's tape. And I wrote some form in this one dashboard. I have no idea. I'm like, "How am I going to get around this?" Couldn't figure it out.
Rob Collie (00:09:18):
Well, you know that rookie shit you're talking about?
Gordon Rowe III (00:09:20):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:09:21):
Was a world beater. That's the weird thing. Is that you can keep getting better and better at this stuff over time at Power BI, or in your case, Power Pivot 2010. You can keep getting better at that for a long time. It turns out eight years and you look back every six months at what you did six months before and go, "I was so cute back then. Look at how clumsy I was."
Rob Collie (00:09:42):
But that thing that you did that you're making fun of was amazing and is amazing. It still is amazing. It's a gift that we can keep getting better like that when what we're looking on and laughing about was actually really good.
Gordon Rowe III (00:09:56):
Yeah. It's great to see. I had these measures of trees, trees of measures in there that it's... I don't even know what I was trying to do anymore. I'm so far removed from it and trying to figure out, this is what I need to go edit now in this thing. I can't wait to rip this apart and rebuild it. Because I've had a lot of that stuff from home.
Rob Collie (00:10:20):
What have you upgraded to? The joke is like, you upgraded to Excel 2011. There is no such thing. This will be the most incremental possible upgrade.
Gordon Rowe III (00:10:29):
I got us to drop a bunch of cash, replace 15 machines. We had a Windows 98 machine somewhere still functioning. And so we got Office 365 Business Pro, whatever.
Rob Collie (00:10:46):
There's probably about three more words in the names of that license unit.
Gordon Rowe III (00:10:49):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:10:50):
E3.
Gordon Rowe III (00:10:50):
We're not E3. We're just below the E3.
Rob Collie (00:10:55):
E2.9.
Gordon Rowe III (00:10:57):
Yeah. Whatever that is.
Thomas LaRock (00:11:00):
I want to ask, so why are you stuck? If you're on 365, you shouldn't be stuck.
Gordon Rowe III (00:11:06):
Because I've just been in the middle of a two-month implementation, like migrating email, migrating onto SharePoint, figuring that all out, dealing with people that have a tough time changing from, everything looked this way and now it looks this way. And don't like, I can't do my work. Had a lot of that stuff and it's been phased.
Gordon Rowe III (00:11:30):
So I'm not stuck. I'm converting the old to keep everyone going. Our nursery, we produce about eight and a half million plants every year, we have 100 employees, we grow, quote unquote, catalog. I think we have about 440 items, perennials, grasses, ferns, that we take cuttings of. We propagate seed, tissue culture, divisional items, and we grow a speculative availability that we forecast out two years now. And so it's like we're going to have a plant at this point in time and I don't just get to luxuriously sit and just data model all day.
Rob Collie (00:12:09):
Damn. What a sob story?
Gordon Rowe III (00:12:12):
Yeah. Jason came up and visited.
Rob Collie (00:12:16):
That's right.
Gordon Rowe III (00:12:17):
That guy works for NASA and he was like, "This is the most intense, intricate thing I've ever witnessed in my life. I can't believe you guys do this."
Rob Collie (00:12:27):
I just can't imagine the challenge of having to call your shot two years in a advance.
Gordon Rowe III (00:12:32):
Yeah, and follow through. And we have a whole crazy amount of systems to pull that off. And we rely really, really heavily on Power Pivot. When I told people like, "Your model's good, your model's good, you're going to have to wait, you're going to have to wait." People were like, "What? Okay, I have to print report and work on paper for two weeks?" "Yeah, you do. And then you're not going to have perfect snapshots here."
Rob Collie (00:12:57):
All right, so now you're on the modern, most current versions of Excel. Are you using Power BI or are you still Power Pivot but just in the new version of Excel?
Gordon Rowe III (00:13:06):
I'm just in Power Pivot, converting in the new version of Excel. Maybe about six months ago, I plunked down for the Italians class so I could get up to speed and I'm trying to get to where I can sit down for an hour a day and learn all the new stuff like VAR or VAR, or however you're verbally calling it. I imagine it's VAR.
Rob Collie (00:13:27):
Yeah, I think I'm pronouncing it VAR in my head. You know it's one of those like, is the dress blue or not, internet things. It's VAR to some people.
Gordon Rowe III (00:13:35):
forsythia, forsythia.
Rob Collie (00:13:37):
Yeah, for sure. What's the data type in SQL? Or is there one in SQL that's varchar or whatever? How do we pronounce that?
Thomas LaRock (00:13:44):
Well, I say varchar but some people do say car.
Rob Collie (00:13:47):
How about varchar? Anybody do that?
Thomas LaRock (00:13:48):
I've never heard anybody say varchar and if they did, I might slap them in the mouth.
Rob Collie (00:13:53):
Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Does it? It doesn't sound cool.
Gordon Rowe III (00:13:56):
I might adopt it, varchar.
Rob Collie (00:13:57):
Varchar, it sounds too much like Care Bear.
Gordon Rowe III (00:14:00):
It's too cutie.
Rob Collie (00:14:01):
But then when you take the care or the car off the end, var suddenly becomes var. It's weird.
Gordon Rowe III (00:14:06):
Yeah, that is weird.
Rob Collie (00:14:07):
The English language is if nerds needed to make it weirder, but we do. So Gordon, I think no one has more of a claim to the following statement than you. There might be people in your class of this. You might have some peers. But no one exceeds you, in that this stuff, DACs, whatever the Power BI engines that happen to also be hiding in Excel, these things have changed your life.
Gordon Rowe III (00:14:34):
Hugely. And not only my life but the life of every employee and their families and the web is probably, I'm guessing four or 500 people. Then our customers as well, it just goes on and on and on for me. We have a tremendous, amazing team, but without that tool and the customized tools we've built to manage that process, we wouldn't have pulled off what we've pulled off, which is six years ago when we modernized and built a new 1.3 acre greenhouse under one roof, we did a skew reduction and took that catalog list from 600 plus items down to 450, and made sweeping changes of one-day cutting, sales managers freaking out.
Gordon Rowe III (00:15:26):
You just cut $280,000 of worth of revenue for next year and what's going to happen? And we're like, "We're going to grow more of what we're all sold out on that has a higher margin and make crazy money." And we've the last five years, every employee there's gotten two weeks of bonus, which is crazy. We've borrowed later on our operating line every year, paid it off earlier, took huge amounts of product of cash and sunk it back into capital improvements. And the growth has been, we were probably hovering about like 6.5 in revenue then. And we hit 8.2 this year or just came a couple thousand dollars shy of that.
Gordon Rowe III (00:16:16):
We're finally starting to hire people, because we realized like, we need to staff now. Because we've just been more and more and more, and it's just been amazing watching people's lives, change.
Rob Collie (00:16:30):
So cool. The sales manager going like, "Oh my gosh, you're cutting $280,000 worth of revenue. The defensive mindset is real." That's a bold change. You folks made a bold change. You're not messing around. You were not incremental in this. It takes confidence and confidence comes from being informed. Of course, right? Arrogance and confidence aren't the same thing. It's easy to, sometimes it's easy anyway, to quantify the downside. It's easier anyway. You're like, "Yeah, we're going to win." The offensive mindset. Don't look at what's going away. Look at what's going to fill that void.
Gordon Rowe III (00:17:12):
Right. We slashed a total of like 1.2 million that year, based on the previous year sales history. And we fell $100,000 short of that revenue wise, but the profit margin was like [inaudible 00:17:25]. It was just insane.
Rob Collie (00:17:28):
A lot of companies have a different problem. The revenues are constantly of going up, but their margin shrinking all the while, margin erosion. You talked about the revenue growth you've seen, but the margin growth that you've seen in that same timeframe is actually percentage wise, quite a bit higher than your top line growth, right?
Gordon Rowe III (00:17:47):
Yeah, it definitely was throughout that. And we just started to see it shrink this past year and we're going and repeating those same steps. I just got a huge sheet of stuff I have to analyze. Huge high class problems. Like, holy shit, how am I going to pay taxes was a problem now. All of a sudden, like I got taxes to pay this year and I got to start putting them down for next year and like, whoa, what are we going to do?
Gordon Rowe III (00:18:11):
And that stuff, no arrogance at all, but we were having a conversation in mid May, and I was like, "We're going to have a $747,000 bottom line this year. And Power Pivot is what allowed me to do that. And if I put back the CapEx and stuff that we did from November until the close of the year to shrink that, to get down into a lower bracket, that was our number. If I put back the bonuses and all that stuff, I was right there within a couple grand. It was just amazing.
Rob Collie (00:18:41):
And you called that shot in May. It's like Babe Ruth pointing to the upper deck. You know?
Gordon Rowe III (00:18:48):
Yeah. This is what you need to focus on. And then November was like, holy, I got to do this.
Rob Collie (00:18:52):
That's another really cool example. Every now and then, this isn't happening so much anymore, but every now and then, people would talk about BI as a rear view mirror. Well, if you're standing in May, calling your shot for where you're going to land at the end of December and reality ends up pretty close to that, that's also a crystal ball. If you know what you're doing, the past is what we also call facts. Things that have happened, actual evidence, right?
Gordon Rowe III (00:19:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:17):
If you know what you're doing, you take all the right factors into consideration, you can extrapolate pretty effectively.
Gordon Rowe III (00:19:21):
You can. And we do. This is like that first model I built. The nursery industry generally does production planning in the winter when things are a little calmer for everybody, and it's like this war room, everybody hates it. They get in a conference room and there's six people, and each person has a laptop and there's a computer and printed reports and just all this stuff. And everybody's just calculating numbers and calculating numbers and calculating numbers.
Gordon Rowe III (00:19:52):
And I just, the first thing I set out to build was all of that into one screen, that you got to scroll left and right a little bit to look at all the models, but I just wanted it in one spot so everybody could look at that one version of the truth and see the year over year history, look at the customer segment, look at how that year, current year was performing, have customers with sorted it in descending by grand total so that you'd get that outlier, that one customer that bought up 150 flats because we forgot we overproduced and specialed it.
Gordon Rowe III (00:20:26):
I'm trying to just filter out all those exceptions. I remembered The Sarah Problem was the title. There's so many blog articles I could go back to and think about that were hugely altering to me. And whether I successfully implemented that pattern then or not, my thinking changed and the way I needed to look at things changed and how I needed to develop tools for people really changed.
Rob Collie (00:20:54):
Mine too.
Gordon Rowe III (00:20:55):
It's been amazing.
Rob Collie (00:20:56):
I was on the same journey at the same time. And by the way, where we're talking about pronunciation, you mispronounced the name of that article. The name of that article is Sarah Problem.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:09):
Yeah, I was going to ask, what is The Sarah Problem? Who is Sarah?
Rob Collie (00:21:13):
Actually, Sarah Problem was the roller derby name of I think one of my wife's teammates when she played roller derby out in Seattle. My wife was Natalie Fatality. But there was Sarah Problem and Miss Fortune. Some of the names were just awesome. There's actually, I think it's international. There's an international registry of roller derby names that enforces uniqueness. You can't steal someone else's name. You have to go and register. It's an association.
Gordon Rowe III (00:21:42):
Like thorough red horse names.
Rob Collie (00:21:43):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:44):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:21:45):
It's just like that. Sarah Problem was a DACs technique that would bubble up exceptions from a lower level of detail that you wouldn't necessarily be looking at. Bubble them all the way up to the top level of the report, telling you that you might want to drill down. And I didn't know that technique. The reality of it had to land on me, the need for it. And then the technique to do it came as a necessity. Heady days. Every day I could sit down and feel like I was going to discover something and then share it. It was a great time.
Gordon Rowe III (00:22:13):
There was a huge like in kiss the door component.
Rob Collie (00:22:15):
Yeah, there you go.
Gordon Rowe III (00:22:17):
There really was just like, oh my gosh, what did I just discover? I know people in the nursery just got so sick and tired of hearing me. They were like, "Please just stay at home." Because I was like, "Power Pivot." I'd sit in a meeting and I'd just be like, "Power Pivot, Power Pivot, Power Pivot, Power Pivot. Well, how are we going to Power Pivot?"
Thomas LaRock (00:22:37):
And in my world, that word was PowerShell. How are we going to do this? It's just PowerShell was always, that would be their solution for everything. That was their hammer and everything was a nail, right? PowerShell.
Rob Collie (00:22:48):
Yeah. Close friend of mine got into one of our most epic, not an argument, a fight. We didn't physically hurt each other or anything, but to call it an argument would be gentle. Over him wanting to use PowerShell for everything and me saying like, "Stop." And we got vicious.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:05):
I'm amazed though, Gordon, that you're doing all of that just in Excel. All that analysis is happening just inside Excel or Power BI or what?
Gordon Rowe III (00:23:13):
Just old school Power Pivot up until tomorrow or the next day.
Rob Collie (00:23:17):
I mean staying in new school Power Pivot.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:19):
Right. But still just, it's amazing to me the amount of analysis and the business decisions being made. And it's honestly, it's just a spreadsheet. There's no database involved, there's no analytical engine going on except what's in your head. And it underscores to me how much, I guess things are over-engineered at times. You know what, we're going to do all this now. Let's go build a cube, let's get some reports done, this, that and the other. How many SAP projects have imploded after two or three years of trying to deploy something when in the end it turns out, you could have just done it in the spreadsheet. And you would've been much more effective. Just the amount of over-engineering and waste that probably goes on out there when it's just a simple solution.
Gordon Rowe III (00:24:10):
I think the landing page being native Excel that people are comfortable and them having to stop running a flat prebuilt report out of the back end, out of the ERP. That they always had to go run another report afterwards. They had to sift through three reports to get to the data, get the subset, go over here, get the next subset. Okay, there's my answer. And being able to shape that for them, just find out...
Gordon Rowe III (00:24:41):
I spent a lot of time walking in my observation oval, we try and practice some lean and I'm a big fan of the observation oval and looking at people work and it's watching them grab their calculator and saying, what are you doing now? Well, I have to take the production of the next three weeks and turn it into 98.6 cubic bales of soil so I can do the soil ordering. Okay, well let me make a measure that's going to convert the number of flats we're producing that week to your bales of soil and let me put it in switch so you can see it in your production plan and like, boom.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:22):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Gordon Rowe III (00:25:24):
It's just that we have a production forecast that manually took time studies to come up with full-time equivalence for our 12-person production line, so that converts to FTEs, and then I have conditional formatting that if it's over five and a half days, it's red, and then I'm using switch with a disconnected table so they can plug in the number of people so they can figure out if they can get that under five days, if they set up a little sideline for four people. And it's just like that kind of stuff that people are buried in the mundane. So I want to get them out there, making sure the quality's good, get them off that, the less time you're in your seat and the more you're out in the nursery, the better.
Rob Collie (00:26:11):
This is the deepest, I know that we're not getting deep at all, really, but this is the deepest we've gotten into DACs ever.
Gordon Rowe III (00:26:17):
Is it?
Rob Collie (00:26:18):
In this podcast. And it totally makes sense. It's just working. We talk about this show as being data with a human element so we don't get in there and talk about optimizing, whatever. It's not a technical show. It's about the people. But us talking about these formulas and the way that you're using them is still just about the people.
Gordon Rowe III (00:26:36):
It is. It is. In there I have it so we can switch between the dollar value of that production based on the start date or the finish date, because we have a huge range of variables and finish times based on crop sizes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, so you can just watch this money like, how much are we putting down this week? When it finishes, what's that going to be? What's finishing next week? It's like just all that stuff is like, and I love it. It's just fun.
Rob Collie (00:27:04):
A couple things, first of all, for those who are listening who are Power BI practitioners and have never used Power Pivot, something that Tom was saying that I want to make sure that is clarified for that segment of the audience. The brains underneath the hood of Power BI. Well, there is an all lap in memory database in there. It's essentially cube building without thinking about it that way, which is really how it should be done.
Rob Collie (00:27:28):
And Power Pivot has that thing. It has that beast in it. We were recording the podcast with Donald Farmer, where he was talking about how the original, the MVPs in the analysis services space when they saw Power Pivot were at first scared like, "Oh my gosh, you're going to put us outta business." But once they saw the capabilities of it and the sophistication of it, they realized, "Oh no, no, no. There's a lot of learning that has to happen here." It's not just a spreadsheet. Gordon has been building collinear and memory, all that databases but without having to think about it that way. That's not what it's about. It's about the people.
Rob Collie (00:28:05):
The second thing I wanted to highlight is, Microsoft, I hope you're listening. Gordon has been, also in the Donald podcast, he's talking about how this concept called the tool of choice. Tools that people walk forward, step forward and voluntarily embrace. Things that they're drawn to, that they like, as opposed to the things that they're handed.
Rob Collie (00:28:27):
In a lot of ways, Excel is both. It is like mandated in a way. But the people who get really good at it develop a real strong affinity for it. It becomes part of their identity in a weird way. And the same thing is true, this wave of folks, the Power Pivot generation, if you will. But just certainly true of you Gordon, just remembering that this happens and remembering, think about all of the success that you've had, all of the tremendous change that you've worked. Not just for yourself but for all these other people that you're mentioning. You were doing that with decade old version.
Rob Collie (00:29:03):
You weren't super, super bothered or crippled by the fact that there hadn't been any investment in that for a while. You were jealous perhaps maybe of all the new toys you weren't getting to play with, but you were still getting after it. And I just think that sometimes from behind the scenes, when you're working on software, you can lose sight of the successes like that. Again, it's like a decade ago. We haven't even thought about that stuff, but here you are.
Gordon Rowe III (00:29:28):
But I've been at the time capsule, cryogenically frozen.
Rob Collie (00:29:32):
Why not Power BI? You're making all of these. I'm leading the witness here. I think I know your answer, but are you going to be trying out Power BI in the next six months in a production capacity? Are you licensed for it?
Gordon Rowe III (00:29:44):
Totally. And when Jason visited, which I think was like two years ago now probably, he was like, "You have to do this." And I got IT company to install it on my desktop. When we migrated, I deleted three as a charm, which was this Power BI file that I saved at my desktop, which is my third attempt going in there. That's when I was like, "I need to get some schooling and not spend as much time beating my head against the wall as I did before, because I need to use my time wisely."
Rob Collie (00:30:18):
I'm imagining you putting together. I have no idea if this is going to be useful, but the point is it would look amazing. Using one of the custom visuals or whatnot, and producing an overhead map of your greenhouses. Color coding, conditional formatting based on profitability or demand or something.
Gordon Rowe III (00:30:35):
It's funny you say that. As we produce crops, we've produced 100 flats and it is a grid from above and I've been pushing for the last four years for us to sign up with this AI company. You knew that's like cameras on rails to hammer out our loss and all sorts of stuff. And the owner of that company and I talk about the crazy game of Tetris we have to play with our space. Because our most valuable space is our empty space and cleaning, there's all sorts of stuff that has to go behind and it's Tetris across five, six acres across multiple buildings.
Gordon Rowe III (00:31:15):
We have a 1.3 acre building and a two acre building and then we have all these other little buildings all over the place. And it's like, where can this fit over there and what can we move? And I want the AI to show people what to go do on that.
Rob Collie (00:31:29):
That's awesome. We talk about the Tetris problem in our business. We've got all these odd-shaped pieces of project work and mapping it to consultant availability. It's something we talk about it extensively on the podcast with Kellan. But the equivalent is the old BI industry worked one greenhouse at a time. We just dedicate the whole greenhouse to one thing. That's how big the project was.
Rob Collie (00:31:52):
But when you're moving fast and you're able to execute projects at a much faster tempo, now you get a Tetris problem. How do you get all of these projects into your team in a way that's efficient so you don't end up, again, with a lot of that empty space? I read a long time ago that for a restaurant, the optimal model in terms of capacity loading for a restaurant, imagine non-COVID era for this, is to always have exactly one table open.
Rob Collie (00:32:19):
And that took me a little while to wrap my head about it, why would you ever want one table open? Oh I see, because you're turning people away. And if you had gotten people out of the restaurant a little bit faster, you would be able to take that next person to walk up on the seat them immediately. Is there any parallel? You said that the empty space is your most valuable space. Is there anything akin to that, like you always want one empty spot? Or if you could have your way, you'd never have any empty spots?
Gordon Rowe III (00:32:48):
The perfect scenario would be the same thing where you'd have one bay open. Because you'd have no waiting waste, you'd eliminate all that stuff. Just like first thing this morning, there was a big email chain about the amount of materials that's finishing at farm A has to move to farm B before it leaves. And that two-acre greenhouse at 60% capacity right now, so there should be plenty of space, but it's all these little tiny holes throughout this whole thing.
Gordon Rowe III (00:33:20):
So we have to physically move stuff where it needs to go. And nobody put into the equation that what's leaving over the next five weeks. It's like, here's what's coming to you in the next five weeks. Well, we can accommodate that but we also have this leaving, and then I was like, "Okay, let me go look at this. These are all at 50% so we could just do a east west move here to open up a clean aisle." This is what's leaving, so these two houses are the houses you should attack first.
Rob Collie (00:33:51):
I'm going to have to make it so that Kellan, our president and COO, does not listen to this podcast. Because what's going to happen is he's going to hear this segment of it and he's just like disappear into a beautiful mind type of hole with a scrap board and a chalkboard and he's going to be coming back saying things like, it's the nursery problem. It's always been the nursery problem. But it sounds like such up his alley. Seriously, if he ever came to visit you, he would never leave.
Gordon Rowe III (00:34:23):
Anytime. Anytime you want to get rid of him for a while, he can come up and-
Rob Collie (00:34:26):
I need to clone him. I want to see what his reaction would be to seeing your operation, but then I want to be able to reel him in because we need him. We have our own problems.
Gordon Rowe III (00:34:36):
Everybody has problems.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:38):
Sarah Problem.
Rob Collie (00:34:38):
Sarah Problem. Yes. And the answer is yes. Sarah Problem? Yes. Always, there's always a problem. Multiple actually. Think about it from an outsider's perspective. You just grow plants. How simple could it be? It's the simplest thing ever.
Gordon Rowe III (00:34:54):
We don't get that. We get, it must be so nice there working with all the flowers.
Rob Collie (00:34:59):
Oh, I see. It's that version of it.
Gordon Rowe III (00:35:01):
It's so relaxing.
Rob Collie (00:35:03):
Yeah. It turns out you've got to do battle with some very, very, very unforgiving forces. We call them physics and biology. Those things bring, like you're talking about like, oh yeah, we've got to move them from this place to that place and why. Why do we need to do that? Because of physical constraints or because we need to maintain a different temperature over here or irrigate differently over here. And by the way, different plants might require different things at different parts of their life cycle and oh my God.
Gordon Rowe III (00:35:33):
All of those things and the weather. And the weather, even though we're in controlled environment, and the weather. Because cloudy days, sunny days. Getting a plant out of a greenhouse that's been 72 degrees and putting it on a truck when it's 22 degrees outside, we don't even... It's like the machine has to stop then. We can't even do that because we have to make a tunnel to get the stuff. We got heaters and it's like, okay, cross our fingers.
Gordon Rowe III (00:36:04):
And then we got to disappoint people and say, sorry, week 22, 21, you're not getting your Flox Gina because they're in a second dormancy right now and we don't know when they're going to come out because we've never seen this before. So we'll cancel your order and we'll call you back. Sorry.
Rob Collie (00:36:22):
Bring out the plants.
Gordon Rowe III (00:36:24):
Plants sleeping. Yeah. Plants asleep.
Rob Collie (00:36:29):
So you're in Pennsylvania. Is that right?
Gordon Rowe III (00:36:32):
Yes. Southeastern Pennsylvania. Just a little bit above the Maryland Delaware, Pennsylvania Arc there.
Rob Collie (00:36:40):
Has the cannabis revolution come to Pennsylvania yet?
Gordon Rowe III (00:36:43):
Yeah, we have cannabis. It really totally messed up our industry with resources. It's shared resources, so it's like it delayed our greenhouse construction. Because we couldn't get greenhouse components and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Rob Collie (00:36:59):
Because of again, the gold rush, right?
Gordon Rowe III (00:37:00):
Yeah, the gold rush.
Rob Collie (00:37:03):
Talk about like keys to doors.
Gordon Rowe III (00:37:04):
Even though that plant was a huge part of my life for a long time, I wanted nothing to do with going into the industry. Well, it's going to cost you a lot of money to get me out of where I'm living right now. I'm at home and if you want me to go there, here's what I need. Just say no. I'm going to give you no answers.
Rob Collie (00:37:27):
So there were head hunters.
Gordon Rowe III (00:37:29):
I had some head hunters, yeah. I have some really good friends who are really successful in the business and they're like, "I need you. I need you. I need you. Come help me." And I'm like, "Here's what I want."
Rob Collie (00:37:39):
And they should pay it, right?
Gordon Rowe III (00:37:41):
They should. They should.
Rob Collie (00:37:43):
They should. They just don't know any better yet.
Gordon Rowe III (00:37:44):
And I just said that, and I don't want anything to do with that. That's the strangest world because it's taken a plant and put it into commodity status, and it's no different than wheat or soybeans, except it's in a really high tech environment. Illicitness of it has allowed it to have some fake value associated with it so it can... it's a huge bubble in my opinion. And I just at my age and everything, I don't want to shift gears to have to shift back and just wasn't worth it for me.
Rob Collie (00:38:18):
Was you that I was talking about that the AI associated with this, all it does is optimize for color? Is it you or someone else I was talking to, these AI systems that these growers have, they give control of all of the environmental factors to that system and have it just try to match certain known good in the plants.
Gordon Rowe III (00:38:41):
Yeah. That's one of those things that they're doing with that system that we've given them a down payment. We have a good faith agreement that we're going to install it. It was going to go into that big greenhouse we had. But those guys are doing really crazy stuff with that and they're even predicting yields based on data and reading bud points on the plant within. It's amazing how close they are to what they're going to get.
Rob Collie (00:39:07):
We've joked a few times on this podcast and it's not really a joke. You really only find out what humanity can do, like where there's a will, there's a way. Until we start competing with each other or in professional sports or even worse, like when we're going to war with one another, that's where technology really leaps forward. We might need to add one more category to that. We really find out what we can do when there's weed to be grown, apparently.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:36):
It's a license to print money. It just seems like right now, I drive past dispensaries we have and the line has been, before coronavirus, the line was, the place was just packed. Just nonstop flow of business. And it just seems like-
Rob Collie (00:39:54):
It's crazy, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:39:55):
... it's just pure profit to me. There's no risk in that industry. If you secure a license, you are going to make money.
Rob Collie (00:40:05):
That's like the taxi medallions in New York City until they weren't. What did they think she used to sell for? They were like, sounds like a million dollars each.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:13):
Something crazy.
Rob Collie (00:40:14):
The right to operate a single taxi was selling for six figures. There were even companies, that their whole business model was to assemble portfolios of these. It was trading as a financial security and then Uber came along. Those things, market for that stuff just crashed, so I tend to agree with you that there's something bubble about it. You'd think that if it was a bubble, that it would've crashed by now.
Gordon Rowe III (00:40:42):
That's a good point, but I just don't see, there's a ton of money to be made, but if you got a hold of a bunch of their PNLs, you'd be like, wow, they're not making the margins they were making when they were drug dealers at all. They have all sorts of compliance they have to do and all sorts of stuff that they're doing that they may or may not have been doing. It's just an annual and it's a commodity, and if you could grow that stuff where it's dry in Mexico, let's say, and labor was super cheap and you could mechanically harvest everything and you need lights and you didn't need CO2 generation and you didn't need all these things, you could grow enough in a state, the size of Delaware probably to supply the United States for the year.
Rob Collie (00:41:27):
The United States looks at Delaware, looks at you, looks at Delaware and says, "I think we can do better."
Gordon Rowe III (00:41:38):
It's just close. It's small. I picked on it.
Rob Collie (00:41:40):
Challenge accepted.
Gordon Rowe III (00:41:41):
Yeah. Probably who knows what it is, but-
Rob Collie (00:41:44):
I wonder if it's like the craft beer of business. Even now it seems like every day there's a new craft brewer reopening. With craft brewing, it's more a labor of love. Were you suggesting earlier that some of the actual illicit distributors and stuff might have gone legit?
Gordon Rowe III (00:41:58):
I know they have.
Rob Collie (00:41:59):
That just seems like a weird transition, doesn't it? It's like you need a whole different organization to be legitimate versus underground.
Gordon Rowe III (00:42:06):
But they loved what they did and that's what they wanted to do. And they just saw, I get to do this at a bigger scale and I'm not going to go to jail. So I'm like, "Wow, I'm going to make that switch." I bet you, half of that in industry has been involved in it before illicitly in some way, shape or form. And not from being a consumer.
Rob Collie (00:42:26):
Yeah. Just to give you a data point on that, I, our company, we have nothing to do with cannabis. I don't even think we have any cannabis industry clients. Not that we've gone out of our way to not have them, but my wife was thinking about doing a, some sort of wellness store at one point as a business she wanted to start. And one of the products that she wanted to carry was just CBD. Which almost has nothing to do with the cannabis industry, really. It's like a derivative. Not mind altering, none of the above. Local banks here in Indiana, a lot of them have explicit policies, that if you have anything to do with CBD, they won't make you a loan.
Gordon Rowe III (00:43:03):
Totally.
Rob Collie (00:43:04):
Even CBD. It's clearly not because of the compound in question. It's got to be because of some sort of cultural association, or maybe it's the knowledge that there's actually a number of shady characters in that business.
Gordon Rowe III (00:43:21):
I know that I wanted to grow hemp liners. I have some local friends, farmers, they're putting in nine acres of hemp, 15 acres of hemp. Let's get into some hemp production to take one house and quick turn, make some money, help some local guys out.
Rob Collie (00:43:39):
What's a hemp liner?
Gordon Rowe III (00:43:41):
Just a rooted hemp cutting that you'd plant in the ground and then finish outside in your field.
Rob Collie (00:43:47):
Okay.
Gordon Rowe III (00:43:47):
It's what we do. We're the start of the nursery supply chain, so we sell a little inch and a half tall, inch by inch plug. A little, there's 72, 50 or 32 in a tray and I wanted to grow those for some friends basically. And one of the big hurdles was that the bank was like, "No way. No how. No loans. You can't. Not allowed. Not happening."
Rob Collie (00:44:11):
Even independent of the laws. It's interesting. That got my attention and you're like something's going on there? I don't know what, but something's definitely going on there.
Gordon Rowe III (00:44:18):
Those guys jump through crazy hoops for banking because federally, they still can't do... There's no regulations for them for banking. So they have hemp credit union kind of things taken. And those guys are taking cash to a hemp credit union so they can get their money, because most banks won't take them as customers. If you look into it, it's nutty.
Rob Collie (00:44:45):
Sound like Breaking Bad, you've got a storage shed full of a gigantic cube of cash.
Gordon Rowe III (00:44:51):
It is, it is. That's what's going on.
Rob Collie (00:44:54):
That's scary. Well, I didn't mean to turn this into a-
Gordon Rowe III (00:44:57):
Little weed aside.
Rob Collie (00:44:58):
... a little weed aside. I just felt like, this is something that is happening in your industry. I had no idea for instance, that you're now competing against that crazy woosh bubbly industry for basic supplies and construction and all that kind of, that hadn't even occurred to me. Didn't account for that in your Power Pivot model, did you?
Gordon Rowe III (00:45:19):
No. No you didn't there, Collie.
Rob Collie (00:45:23):
You could have had a slicer like, "Weed legalization." The weed legalization scenario.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:29):
Yeah, wow. You really missed that one.
Rob Collie (00:45:32):
Put that in your disconnected slicer and smoke it.
Gordon Rowe III (00:45:34):
Did you have that one written down already? Was that on the fly?
Rob Collie (00:45:45):
No.
Gordon Rowe III (00:45:45):
That's great.
Rob Collie (00:45:45):
This is my gift, making disconnected slicer jokes.
Gordon Rowe III (00:45:48):
That's great.
Rob Collie (00:45:48):
It's a very, very, very specific brand of humor.
Gordon Rowe III (00:45:52):
This should be on a sticker for the 14 people that are going to really laugh at that one.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:59):
Four of them are here.
Rob Collie (00:46:03):
That's correct. We'd make those stickers for ourselves, which would violate one of the rules. Don't use your own product. We got other things to talk about, I'm sure. Do you have retail customers or your customers are all like the next step in the nursery supply chain?
Gordon Rowe III (00:46:26):
Our customers are wholesale nurseries, upscale retail garden centers that do their own padding. And then we have a landscape plug that's a five-inch deep or three-inch deep plug that you can plant with a bulb drill directly into the ground instead of digging up space for a one gallon. So we have like 30% of the business, 30, 40% of the business goes into the plug market, which are landscapers.
Rob Collie (00:46:58):
Give me an example of something that I would plant via this method.
Thomas LaRock (00:47:01):
Grass.
Gordon Rowe III (00:47:02):
Grasses. Like ornamental grasses. Let me think. The Highline used a lot of our deep plugs in New York, that project.
Thomas LaRock (00:47:12):
Nice.
Gordon Rowe III (00:47:12):
We have, there's a really nice place called Longwood Gardens here in our backyard, which is pretty world renowned place. They redid their meadow and bought a couple hundred thousand plugs from us. The 9/11 Memorial out near Pittsburgh has a number of our plugs that went into that. So it's when they're doing a naturalistic native planning. It's got that deep root system so it can go direct into the ground. You don't need a lot of irrigation because it's a smaller thing and they finish the following year. You can't really tell the difference and you have a lot less labor going into planting.
Rob Collie (00:47:48):
Are there any trees that can be planted like this or is it just grasses and strawberries?
Gordon Rowe III (00:47:51):
Ir's actually, the plug came from, it's a forestry tray actually that we adopted to do native grasses and [inaudible 00:48:02] in. But we don't grow trees.
Rob Collie (00:48:04):
Not via plugs.
Gordon Rowe III (00:48:05):
No, but when they plant where they've cut in Oregon, let's say, they use that plug tray, basically.
Rob Collie (00:48:11):
This is something that I'm under direct instructions to ask you about, which is native plants. At our house, we are now on a native plant policy. We're only going to plant landscaping that would conceivably naturally have grown here. Anyway, supports the local insects and things like that in ways that a lot of times plants from different regions wouldn't. Has this started to become at all a trend that you're having to anticipate around the country, or are we the only freak shows that are doing this?
Gordon Rowe III (00:48:45):
North Creek was started 33, 4, 5 years ago with the crack smoking idea of growing native perennials. That's what we set out to do-
Thomas LaRock (00:48:55):
Wow.
Gordon Rowe III (00:48:55):
... at that point in time. Which was like, you want to grow ditch weeds? You're growing what? The horticulture world was all about pretty uniform, cookie cutter. And the founder, he and Steve, Dale and Steve, Dale's no longer with the company because it outgrew his vision. But that's what Dale wanted to do, was grow natives for the landscape. And it was really, really unheard of and like lunacy.
Rob Collie (00:49:25):
I had no idea. Listeners out there, this was not pre-scripted. I had no idea that this just the origin of North Creek.
Gordon Rowe III (00:49:32):
Yeah, this is the origin of North Creek. And if you go back and look at our catalogs, we... I said we, I wasn't even there yet, but there were those cookie cutter items that they grew because they had to have this business. But he had all these crazy oddball plants that nobody had heard of, so North Creek's been very crazy being visionaries and trend setting. Not even trend setting, doing the work ahead of time to break into these things.
Gordon Rowe III (00:49:59):
Like data too. We were one of the big data... I got data and then there's a group of nurseries, there's maybe like 200 of us and we share all these metrics with each other now on a blind thing. And I gave presentations to those guys on what we were doing and watching heads explode and presentations.
Rob Collie (00:50:17):
I remember you telling me that. You sent me a text one time saying, "I'm at this conference. I'm up here. I'm making presentation. I'm just watching heads explode left and right. Just boom, boom, boom."
Thomas LaRock (00:50:29):
That's awesome.
Rob Collie (00:50:29):
Just like a culture, that's like a society now forming around data in the nursery industry with you as one of the elder figures.
Gordon Rowe III (00:50:41):
I've been called the Gandalf of data and I've been preaching. I've been preaching since 2013 and I just had somebody not too long ago call me up like, "Hey Gordon, we're moving to your ERP. I remember those data models you had. Can you help me out with that stuff, Power Pivot?" Writing it down, seeing what I'm doing and I'm like, "It's Power BI now, but you'll figure it out. Just go help yourself out. Call somebody else."
Rob Collie (00:51:02):
Well, we know what your gift is going to be now, Luke, the Gandalf of data.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:09):
Who makes those gifts.
Gordon Rowe III (00:51:10):
I had a much longer beard then.
Rob Collie (00:51:11):
Who makes those gift?
Thomas LaRock (00:51:12):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:51:13):
Kylie makes those gifts. Our designer animator, extraordinaire.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:17):
She does the stick figures for you as well?
Rob Collie (00:51:19):
She can.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:19):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:51:20):
She was not the originator of the stick figures. Originator of the stick figures is an artist in Australia, and who's done a lot of even custom work for us in that regard. I'm not writing that many blog posts anymore, so I haven't... Trust me, we still a very brisk business in stick figures behind the scenes, our team meetings. And there's others that have taken up the torch. Evan on our team has got a strong stick figure game and he brings it.
Rob Collie (00:51:44):
But yeah, like you were saying, Gordon, you're talking about this journey that you've been on, reaching the point where like, "We can hire people now to do things." We've reached the same level in couple of years. We now have a full-time designer on staff. Full-time web dev, a full-time copywriter. We're able to do things now, and it's crazy cool. It's just this feeling of awesome capability compared to the old days where you had to wear every single hat, including the Gandalf hat, by the way.
Gordon Rowe III (00:52:10):
How many people are you up to right now?
Rob Collie (00:52:12):
I think we could probably get somewhere in the mid 30s together in a room if we needed to. Depending on how wide of a net you wanted to throw.
Gordon Rowe III (00:52:19):
And if you went back to 2010, 2011, 2012, whenever your first blog post was when you were going to sit down this road, did you have any idea? What was your target then? Have you hit it? Is this beyond your wildest dreams? Where are you at buddy?
Rob Collie (00:52:38):
I've got a nuanced layers of onion type of answer to this question. On the one hand, we're exactly where I wanted us to be. The kind of company that I thought needed to be created to respond to disruption of these tools. The industry's doing everything it can to not make it a disruption. And in some ways, even Microsoft is trying to not make it a disruption. As long as the money flows.
Rob Collie (00:53:02):
But it is make no mistake about it. This stuff is a disruptor. You can't put this particular genie back in model. And so, the kind of consulting firm that needed to be built for this stuff, well, we're living that today. In broad strokes, yes, this is where I expected it to be. However, I thought that the world would uptake this stuff much faster than it has. It's the old joke we've made a few times on here. Like the difference between foresight and depth perception, you can be great at one and not so great at the other.
Rob Collie (00:53:30):
I'm grateful though, that it has taken the world a lot longer because it's taken us a while too. I think you have to underestimate the difficulty in something to ever get into it. If you knew all the obstacles ahead of you, you wouldn't start. But we did, because we didn't know the obstacles. And so, it's a different place. It'd be really an oversimplifying and humanistic narrative for me to say, yeah, we're exactly where I thought we would be. No, there were so many problems and epiphanies and things that had to be navigated that were just completely invisible.
Rob Collie (00:54:02):
In a way, it's more satisfying where we are because it was harder, way harder than I would've anticipated. And it required a team of talented people even just to make that vision a reality. I couldn't have done that by myself. It sounds like a cliche, but we didn't have enough labor power to do it. We also didn't have the right kinds of brains. All we had was my wife and I in the beginning.
Rob Collie (00:54:25):
So yes, in some sense we're right where I thought we would be. No, it's been a longer and more difficult road than I ever anticipated. But longer and more difficult just makes it more validating, more satisfying in a way. So the no parts of that answer aren't negative. They're actually part of the positive parts of that answer. More podcast guests should bring their own questions. That should be something we encourage. Why does it have to always be us?
Thomas LaRock (00:54:50):
Yeah.
Gordon Rowe III (00:54:51):
Because I'm going to turn the tables.
Rob Collie (00:54:52):
I'm bringing my own heat. That's great. I appreciate that. We didn't finish the native plants thing. I feel contractually obligated to make sure that I understand. So North Creek started out with a native plants kind of mission.
Gordon Rowe III (00:55:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:10):
Have you retained that mission?
Gordon Rowe III (00:55:12):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:55:13):
That story could have taken a turn like yeah, that was what we started. It was our roots but we... Oh, see roots, see that joke?
Gordon Rowe III (00:55:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:19):
But we figured out that was a terrible business and so we got out of it. But no, that's not the case. You've lived up to it.
Gordon Rowe III (00:55:23):
No, they retained it. They had to grow some non native. They even had some annuals back then, coleus is a popular thing. They put coleus in because they could sell it. Because I brought up looking at old catalogs over the winter. We should do one of the next five-year anniversary increments. We should grow a couple crops of coleus just to bring it back because we did in the beginning.
Gordon Rowe III (00:55:45):
But it's definitely the core of what North Creek is, who we are, what we do. If you came out, you'd see that in the landscape. It's the main farms on 14 acres and we probably have more landscape in Meadows and wet lands and rain gardens and stuff like that around and we do greenhouses.
Rob Collie (00:56:08):
So with that native plant mission, do you supply just certain regions of the country? Is it basically like, these are the things that are native to Pennsylvania? Or do you have regional native set of targets for different regions?
Gordon Rowe III (00:56:23):
It's a focus on Mid-Atlantic native, but it expands outside of that. And our customer base is, our core is definitely in the Mid-Atlantic, but we ship the whole way to the west coast, all 48 states outside of the country, a little bit here and there, Canada, and we certainly can't grow some native from the upland plateaus of Utah, but we'll consider it on a custom basis.
Rob Collie (00:56:53):
Interesting. You mentioned Canada and for some reason that got me thinking about the border and then that led to COVID. The home improvement business boomed, as far as I can tell. If we just went by the metric of number of neighbors that I see with piles of lumber in their driveway, and also, I'm told the price of lumber, we did our basement, finished our basement during COVID. It was apparently the hip thing to do in this neighborhood.
Rob Collie (00:57:18):
I could imagine something similar happening in the plants industry. People are just at home and they've got time. But your two-year planning cycle, I don't know how you would, even if that happened, could you even take advantage of it?
Gordon Rowe III (00:57:32):
Right now if you went and looked at our availability in the current column, it's got a heck of a lot of zeros in it, which is why you'd also see a heck of a lot of crops that we have projected out for 2022 now. We've always had some of those items, because of process, we've shown two years of crops. Current, the next one that finishes at the end of the summer and then probably the next one as soon as we sell out.
Gordon Rowe III (00:57:59):
But this year it's been crazy. We had at the initial shutdown, I think we had like three, $400,000 worth of business that got canceled and/or pushed out indefinitely. And then all hell broke loose. And it was just record after record after record. Normally we'd peak the end of May, June, and then things would slow down in July little bit and start to creep up in August, September, October and then another slump. And it was just like, it just kept going and going and going and going. The shipping crews never got a break. They were exhausted going into the fall this year. It was really, really amazing. We crushed some records.
Gordon Rowe III (00:58:43):
And we used to have big nurseries that in the fall would book their spring orders and they might book the following year to make sure they were first in the door and had the material. And now we got Mom and Pops calling up and saying, "Do you have this?" "No, we're sold out." And they're like, "I want it next year." And we have more money on the books next year than we've ever, ever had. It's a amazing.
Rob Collie (00:59:05):
I have all kinds of respect for what you do. I always have, but even more so now, you've got a very frantic up tempo day to day. And yet you're dealing with something that you can't make plants really grow any faster than you already are. The world can turn on a dime in terms of its demand, as we've seen. Biology doesn't. So are there new Power Pivot models that have come into existence because of COVID? Where has this impacted you on the data side?
Gordon Rowe III (00:59:33):
In my future short term, got to get it done projects, one of the things we have like an availability that we publish every morning that has basically, it's got the plant and stuff, but it's gotten available now column, and then the next quantity and date, and then a second set of quantity and date. And we export that out of our system and into Excel and somebody probably should be running a macro but they might not. We publish that thing. It's a snapshot. I think it's a total waste because it's invalid as soon as we publish it, because somebody's bought a flat and it's no longer true.
Gordon Rowe III (01:00:10):
But I'm going to do that with Power Pivot and power update so it's just there and customer service can just print to PDF. That's one thing I've been implementing, is that I always wanted to do. I've had it in folder forever, is dynamic print ranges. It's so simple, but I just started doing it for people so they don't have to highlight their print area. That's the kind of stuff that changes lives for people.
Rob Collie (01:00:36):
So you're doing dynamic print ranges with name ranges that adjust?
Gordon Rowe III (01:00:39):
Yeah, that adjust.
Rob Collie (01:00:41):
Or calculations of where the data ends like the print range?
Gordon Rowe III (01:00:44):
Yeah. You just hit print and it's perfect. And you don't have to hit Control Arrow, Left, Down.
Rob Collie (01:00:51):
Some artisanal spreadsheeting.
Gordon Rowe III (01:00:53):
I do that kind of stuff. It's one of the things you said, the art and the science one time. Something I made.
Rob Collie (01:01:00):
The art or the possible so wide. Because of their 2010 being stuck there for so long, are you using Power Query at all?
Gordon Rowe III (01:01:08):
I'm not.
Rob Collie (01:01:08):
Power Query is so hard to use in 2010.
Gordon Rowe III (01:01:12):
I have to get into it.
Rob Collie (01:01:13):
We also just recorded a podcast with people from the Power Query team. And it's like a tripped down memory lane from me going like, "Right, there was a time when we didn't have Power Query and it was really hard. Really hard." You've been living in that, Gordon, above everything else, Power Query is where you're going to see tremendous ROI. It's like you've been given this huge gift now that the rest of us have had for a long time, but it's all almost like Microsoft just released this amazing, magical thing just for you and you're going to get to play with it and it's going to make your head explode.
Gordon Rowe III (01:01:49):
I can't wait. I'm up for some head exploding.
Rob Collie (01:01:51):
And you also mentioned the thing that's out of date immediately. Power BI has real time data. I'm just going to put that there. I'm just going to let it sit there for a moment.
Gordon Rowe III (01:02:00):
I'm still using Power Update to refresh data models every day.
Rob Collie (01:02:03):
Power Update is still, I think a one badass piece of software. I don't necessarily think that it goes away. Its utility vanishes when you start using the service to run your refreshes. Especially for the kinds of things that you've built, like a lot of heavily intensive stuff. Like you said, if you've got macros, it'll run them as part of your refresh. That's not going to happen in the Power BI service for instance.
Rob Collie (01:02:24):
But the macros is what got me started thinking about Power Query. These dumps that you've got. There's also, we need to have Ash on the show to talk about the robotic process automation stuff that they're working on in Power Automate that will literally record your keyboard and mouse click strokes and things like that. And so, you got that export that you got to run from that one system. You can, quote unquote, record a script that will go and click those export buttons for you, drop the file in a particular place and then ideally hand off to a Power Query type of script.
Rob Collie (01:02:58):
I've never got my hands on any of that to see if I can actually string it together in that way but I'm sure that's the intent. This is going to be when Gandalf leaves as Gandalf the Grey and resurfaces and the next movie is Gandalf the White. That's going to be you with Power Query.
Gordon Rowe III (01:03:15):
I've been looking forward to it for a while. It's been finding the time and I'm at a space now where I'm going to be able to do that.
Rob Collie (01:03:21):
It's waiting for you, man. It's waiting for you.
Gordon Rowe III (01:03:23):
I don't remember the specific, but I remember when I was watching the train leave the station. The blogs changed and I didn't have the tools. And I would read them anyway. And then I got to a point where it was like, I can't do anything with this. I have no framework, visual framework even to make any sense of this now.
Rob Collie (01:03:45):
Yeah, like the article, for example... There's many of these, but the article that I wrote about, making the football passing chart, the scatter plot and all of the Power Query that's involved in that. Even just adding the index column to that table so that every row has a ranked number on it so that I can do the jittering of the dots like your DOA. If you don't have Power Query in a technique like that.
Rob Collie (01:04:12):
And by the way, now that you have Power Query and you're thinking about Power BI, I think you should go revisit exactly that article because you could do some version of the greenhouse map, just with that same scatter plot technique. Now, there's other custom visuals out there that will allow you to assign your own ranges. You can put your own graphics and it understands where the shapes are. I think you're going to find some of those visual techniques that are in Power BI are just going to do things for you that you couldn't imagine before.
Gordon Rowe III (01:04:38):
As soon as I got into the SharePoint and I got into our first site when I was doing the migration and stuff, and I was reading about it and I was like, "I can embed a little Power BI report here. Right here on that page and every department would have their key metrics right there, knowing if they have to go here and drill into the next thing." And my mind's been and churning on it.
Rob Collie (01:05:02):
I hope you get some 25%. I know that's a large chunk, but I think I'm really hoping that you get some 25% of your time at some point that you can carve out for a while, where you can apply some of this new stuff. It's going to go so well with the data models that you've been building. I bet you're going to find things that we've been talking a little bit on this show about the action loop. It's not just about informing people. It's about helping them take the action that's indicated by the report.
Gordon Rowe III (01:05:36):
Yeah. Verb reporting.
Rob Collie (01:05:39):
Even just hyperlinking them to the right place in some other system. There's so much fun putting together hyperlink columns, just with the concatenate operator in Power BI, and embedding those so that you can click through. You see the problem, you click on it, you click the link that's next to that particular place on the report and off you go. Now you're in that other system and you've already like navigated to the right ID or whatever it is where you would want to take the action. So much there.
Rob Collie (01:06:09):
And then there's power apps. We need to send Kevin Overstreet to visit you. That'd be the other person whose head explodes, would be Kevin Overstreet who's also been on this show. Six months, even three months of working with Kevin and he has a day job. He works for Eli Lilly. It's not like he's going to be packing up and coming to see you for three months. But you would revolutionize again, your whole industry with the things that have been added to the Power platform that are like spokes around the data modeling core. Exciting times. Now you just need to go hire some people so you get some of that time back.
Gordon Rowe III (01:06:43):
Super cool. I'm just letting go and letting people sink or swim a lot.
Rob Collie (01:06:48):
How's that ratio?
Gordon Rowe III (01:06:49):
And just going back.
Rob Collie (01:06:50):
Sink versus swim, how much are you seeing when you let go?
Gordon Rowe III (01:06:52):
People swim a lot. They swim a lot. One of the things, we hired the new IT company to handle all this stuff. Because I middle maned everything with the old people and the new people were like, "We don't want you as the middle man anymore. You got to go do stuff." So when we migrated the email over to 365, I went consulting for the day. I was like, "I'm not even going to be here so people can't even reach out to me."
Gordon Rowe III (01:07:15):
And I was driving down the road. It was an hour away and I was looking at my email and I'm like, you'll have to email [Dorset 01:07:22] with that send. I'm sorry, I can't help you with that. It was like really, really liberating.
Rob Collie (01:07:28):
I was reading one time about this World War II German general, who knew about the plot to kill Hitler. And hadn't turned them in, but also didn't want to support them, because he didn't want to be exposed if it didn't work, which of course it didn't. He knew when it was going to happen, when they were going to try to do it, so he made a point of just being out on this really long walk, like an all-day walk, so that he couldn't be reached, couldn't be asked for his opinion or whatever. Might not be the best of examples, but there is something to unavailability at crucial junctures, can sometimes be a very powerful tool.
Gordon Rowe III (01:08:07):
How else are you going to learn? You got to get rid of the crutches.
Rob Collie (01:08:09):
Also there's another example of this. We had a vice president at Microsoft and he had to give some sort of demo at three o'clock the next afternoon. And he'd been strategizing with this engineer, this guy named Kevin during the day before. And they sketched out what they were going to do in the demo and all that. They both go home. And the next day, the vice president is walking around the hallways in the morning going, "Where's Kevin? Where's Kevin? Where's Kevin?" And Kevin's nowhere to be found. Nowhere to be found. It's like Kevin didn't show up until an hour before the VP was supposed to be on stage and it was a real panic that morning. No one could get ahold of Kevin.
Rob Collie (01:08:47):
And the demo went off fine, everything went great, and then afterwards Kevin told me like, "Yeah, I deliberately vanished that morning because I knew that if I was available, he'd be grabbing me and making me trying to change everything, and it would just be all this incredible stress and everything and it would just be all just a huge waste of time. And so I just deliberately ghosted." And we had no idea that that's what he'd done, but as soon as he told us, we're like, "Oh my God, that's genius."
Thomas LaRock (01:09:16):
It is genius.
Gordon Rowe III (01:09:17):
Total genius.
Rob Collie (01:09:18):
All right, gentlemen. Well, thank you so much.
Gordon Rowe III (01:09:21):
It was great.
Announcer (01:09:22):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to P3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Who better to talk about the past, present, and future of BI than Microsoft Corporate Vice President of the Business Intelligence Platform Arun Ulag. We're all excited for the upcoming Microsoft Business Applications Launch Event on April 6th! References in this Episode: Monty Python Camelot Scene Dirty Daxing Tweet Something About Mary 7 Minute Abs Scene The Giant Backlog of Power BI Ideas Episode Timeline: * 1:20 - Arun's data journey, and the death of Power BI V1 * 17:20 - The story behind the new Power BI icon, why Gartner's magic quadrant favors Power BI * 35:20 - Arun's shares what keeps him up at night, the future of Power BI, and PBI Adoption * 52:30 - Power BI improves lives, especially Excel and V-Lookup people's lives and the evolution of P3 Adaptive * 1:07:20 - Wolfram Data Types, the Azure Data Market, and some cool futuristic Power BI features announced at the Power BI Business Applications Summit
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome, friends. Today's guest is Arun Ulag, and if you don't know, his role at Microsoft is, he runs this thing called the Intelligence Platform, comprising, oh, I don't know, some things you might have heard of like Power BI, analysis services, reporting services, the Power Platform, so if you're in the data and Power BI and Power Platform podcasting industry, he's what is called a good get. Like always, in this industry, we talk a lot about the personal things, like his personal history and his career arc, but given his position, it's totally natural that we spent a lot of time talking about the product, talking about the Microsoft data platform, where it's headed, where it's coming from, the challenge, the excitement, the background evolution of Microsoft. Through it all, I think you'll see that Microsoft definitely has the right person in this role.
Rob Collie (00:00:50):
We really appreciate him doing this. We had a lot of fun, so let's get into it.
Speaker 2 (00:00:53):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Speaker 3 (00:01:00):
This is the Raw Data, by P3 Adaptive Podcast with your host Rob Collie, and your cohost Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:23):
Welcome to the show. Arun Ulag, how are you today?
Arun Ulag (00:01:26):
Excellent, excellent. Thanks for having me, Rob. So excited to be here.
Rob Collie (00:01:29):
Oh my goodness. The pleasure is definitely ours. What's your current job title? What do you do at Microsoft?
Arun Ulag (00:01:36):
Sure. My official job title is corporate vice president, Intelligence Platform. What I do is I run all the business intelligence products for Microsoft, so Power BI is where I spend most of my time, but we also run a lot of our pro dev BI products, so Azure analysis services, SQL Server analysis services, SQL Server reporting services, so all the BI products here at Microsoft, basically. I run both engineering and product management.
Rob Collie (00:01:59):
I love that name, the Intelligence Platform.
Arun Ulag (00:02:03):
It makes us sound smart.
Rob Collie (00:02:04):
It's like, at any meeting you're just sitting there with this sign in front of you that says, "The Intelligence Platform," and everyone else is sitting feeling not as smart by comparison.
Arun Ulag (00:02:15):
I should try that some time. It sounds like a good idea.
Rob Collie (00:02:18):
It's like those things where, like, one person at the negotiating table gets a chair that's eight inches taller than everybody else.
Tom Larock (00:02:27):
Nice.
Rob Collie (00:02:27):
That's awesome. What's your path to getting there? Were you and I both at Microsoft? Did we overlap? I think we did, but we just didn't know each other.
Arun Ulag (00:02:35):
Yeah, we absolutely did. Like many of us, I started out as a programmer, but the thing I really wanted to do was go start my own company, so I was foolish enough to do that at 22, and I got lucky. I was in the Silicon Valley, started a telecom network management software company, found a customer, believe it or not, in the first couple of weeks, so that really helped us grow. We grew quickly. It was profitable for six years, grew to 50, 60 people. I was an engineer selling to engineers. That's the kind of company I built, and then I got stuck. I kind of found that I couldn't grow it anymore, because I didn't know how to build a whole company, so I said, "All right. Let's take a reset," so I sold the company. I went to business school, got my MBA, and then I came to Microsoft, mostly because I wanted to practice sales and marketing, see how it's done, and then relax for a couple of years at a big company and then go back to the Valley and do another startup.
Arun Ulag (00:03:22):
That was my big idea, so I joined Microsoft in 2003 and then, lo and behold, 17 years later I'm still here, so I've done marketing, I've done sales, and now I run product.
Rob Collie (00:03:32):
That story, like, I founded a company by engineers, for engineers, and then realized that business was a little bit more challenging than just that. That doesn't sound familiar to me at all.
Arun Ulag (00:03:42):
You know a thing or two about that, Rob, so you and I share that.
Rob Collie (00:03:46):
Yeah. Our business really took off, not coincidentally, when I realized that I was at the limits of my powers, and I was overdue. I realize that. I didn't take that lesson terribly gracefully, and I can look back on it now and go, "Okay, you know," but when I finally relinquished unanimous grip on the steering wheel, that's when we really hit our inflection point. Obviously, it's not addition by subtraction. It's the fact that that gave room for Kellan to do his thing. He is really good at these other things, so that resonated with me.
Rob Collie (00:04:23):
Okay, got your MBA, which is a pretty tried and true career re-vectoring move, and when you landed at Microsoft newly minted as an MBA, what did you do when you first landed there?
Arun Ulag (00:04:37):
We didn't have a lot of choice. As a fresh MBA, they kind of said, "Do you want to work in enterprise software or consumer software?" I said, "Enterprise software," and that's all I got to say. I started out in the security business. I did that for a couple years, and those were the really, really dark years for Microsoft and security, 2003. We were trying to figure out how we build a security product portfolio, so that was my first job. I was the antivirus product manager, trying to figure out what to do about antivirus software.
Rob Collie (00:05:03):
Oh, wow.
Arun Ulag (00:05:05):
That's kind of how I started. I spent a couple years in security, so we did a few acquisitions, started to build out a security portfolio. That was my first job.
Rob Collie (00:05:12):
Like, the Windows malware removal stuff? Was that something that you had something to do with?
Arun Ulag (00:05:17):
No, that was a different team but we led the antivirus software acquisition. We led an antimalware software acquisition, and [inaudible 00:05:25] called a giant software company, and it was all two people in New York. It sounded really big, and then I led the acquisition of a company called Whales Communications. They built SSL VPN devices, so we built a security portfolio one piece at a time, so I did that for a couple years.
Rob Collie (00:05:43):
Through friends of friends, I know some of the people who started CrowdStrike who had originally been Microsofties. I was just wondering if you had crossed paths with any of them.
Arun Ulag (00:05:53):
That doesn't sound familiar.
Rob Collie (00:05:54):
Yeah. We're not here to talk about antivirus, though. Let's not pretend. So, security for a little while. How'd you start crossing over into the Intelligence Platform?
Arun Ulag (00:06:07):
It was accidental. The guy who ran security, Ted Kummert, I had a ton of respect for him. He moved over to run SQL server on the engineering side, and I had a ton of respect for Ted so I decided to move to SQL, as well. That was my step in to data for Microsoft, so I ran SQL Server enterprise marketing for a few years, got to know the whole SQL Server community, the field, the salespeople, the partners, and that was awesome. SQL was on fire, was growing like crazy. We were taking a ton of share. It was an exciting time to be in SQL Server, so I did that for a few years, and then there was an opportunity to move to sales, and I really did want to think about, what does it take to land gravity, like, carry a quarter, and also experience a different part of the world.
Arun Ulag (00:06:47):
There was an opportunity to run the cloud and AI business for the Asia-Pacific region, so I moved to Singapore with my family and it was a really, really fun and exciting move, so I was based out of Singapore for about four years. I ran the APAC cloud and AI business for Microsoft and the field organization. Ton of fun, so many good friends over there. Such an interesting part of the world. Spent a bunch of time in Australia and Korea and Singapore, in Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, so India wasn't part of Asia-Pac for us. China wasn't part of Asia-Pac. Japan wasn't part of Asia-Pac, but outside of these three big markets, the rest of Southeast Asia was part of my territory.
Arun Ulag (00:07:26):
It was a lot of fun, just absolutely loved it, and it was the days when Kevin Turner ran the field organization. I would describe that as a schooling. For those that know Kevin, he's a pretty tough operator, and I learned how to do more with less. I learned what being held accountable meant, and it was awesome. I loved it. It was an incredible set of career experiences.
Rob Collie (00:07:48):
You got to love those formative experiences. They might not be necessarily a ton of fun while they're happening, but they're things that you look back on later and go, "Wow, I really value that."
Arun Ulag (00:08:01):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Kevin was pretty phenomenal. He was tough, but he was fair and I learned a lot from him.
Rob Collie (00:08:08):
Sounds like the drill sergeant in Full Metal Jacket. "I am hard but I am fair."
Arun Ulag (00:08:16):
Yes. It sounds very familiar.
Rob Collie (00:08:18):
Oh, yeah. We could explore that metaphor for a long time, but we won't. Did you cross paths with Tom when you were in that SQL era? Do you know SQL Rock Star?
Arun Ulag (00:08:32):
It sounds familiar. I don't know if we actually crossed paths, Tom.
Tom Larock (00:08:36):
I don't think so. It's okay.
Rob Collie (00:08:37):
I mean, come on. He was president of PASS.
Arun Ulag (00:08:41):
We did have a lot of interactions with PASS, and Tom, we probably bumped into each other, because there's a lady on my team who is representing SQL in the PASS community, I think, for [inaudible 00:08:51], so, yeah, we probably crossed paths in some way but I don't know if I made any big impression on you so you don't remember.
Tom Larock (00:09:00):
I remember Ted, and I interacted with Ted, I want to say, for a couple of years right before he retired. I remember Ted retiring. I think I was there his last day. I happened to be on campus or something. I haven't heard Ted's name in years, so when you said Ted, I'm like, "Oh, I remember Ted," but I'm not sure you and I, because when I looked at your LinkedIn I saw the years that you were doing certain things. I was really just coming on the board executive and interfacing with the Microsoft execs, so I think as I was getting there, you were heading to Singapore.
Arun Ulag (00:09:34):
That's probably right.
Rob Collie (00:09:35):
Because, otherwise, you clearly would know each other.
Tom Larock (00:09:37):
Yeah, we would have interacted more than once, I think, I'm hoping in a positive way, but who knows.
Arun Ulag (00:09:44):
I'm sure. I'm absolutely sure.
Rob Collie (00:09:46):
Ted was in charge of that division when I was there working on Power [inaudible 00:09:50].
Arun Ulag (00:09:50):
Oh, is that right?
Rob Collie (00:09:51):
Yeah, so this is also a name well known to me in addition. All right, so, let's turn the corner. You come home from Singapore. Is that when the Power BI leg of your journey begins?
Arun Ulag (00:10:04):
Yeah. It's a funny story because I was super excited about Power BI version one when it was being demoed and when it launched. You guys all know Amir Netz. He's a phenomenal storyteller, phenomenal demoer, so he demoed Power BI version one at our sales summit. It was called MGX, and he got a standing ovation from, like, 15,000 salespeople. He riled the whole crowd up. People were on their feet cheering, like, you wouldn't believe this was a BI demo. It was like a rock star event, and I was so excited. I was like, "Man, this thing's going to take the world on fire. I'm going to sell a bunch of this stuff. It's a tiny part of my portfolio but it's going to be so impactful. It's going to be huge," and then Power BI version 1.0 was really hard to sell.
Arun Ulag (00:10:48):
It had so many dependencies. You needed SharePoint. It was priced very high. You needed Excel as the authoring tool, so it was very complicated to set up. It was hard for customers to adopt, and so when we tried to go big with it, I found that I really couldn't. It was a much smaller business than we expected, and I got really frustrated. At that point, James Phillips had just taken over the Power BI team. It was five, six years ago, and I was introduced to him by a mutual friend, Mark Souza, who now leads the Customer Success organization for Microsoft, awesome guy. He and I go back to our SQL days together, and Mark said, "Hey, you guys should just meet. Use this as a power pivot and Excel to run the APAC CNAI business. You've taken over Power BI. Maybe you guys should chat," so I wrote to James, saying, "Hey, James. I have some feedback for you. I've tried to sell this thing that you've taken over and I'm not having a lot of success. Do you want to chat with me?"
Arun Ulag (00:11:39):
The thing about James is he's incredibly focused on, externally, customers, partners, field. I was shocked because I got a response back in, like, two minutes, literally. I'm not kidding. Two minutes, I got an email back with, "Hey, Arun. Would love to meet. Let's set up some time together." I was like, "Wow, this guy's incredibly responsive." From my perspective, I was just giving him field feedback, so I said, I was going to be in Redmond for some reason or the other. I spoke to a bunch of my salespeople, I spoke to a bunch of our partners, and then I wrote a paper. I said, "Hey, James, these are the issues I see. Here's what we're getting wrong. Here's what I see going on in the market, and here's what I would do if I were you."
Arun Ulag (00:12:15):
I sent him this paper a couple of days before we meet up. I think he had just been promoted a CVP at that point. I was like, "How many CVPs read a 12 page paper from a field guy who's not part of the organization who has some ideas?" He had read the whole paper, he had mocked it up with comments, and I meet with him, we have this incredible hour where we just brainstorming ideas, we're riffing off each other on a whiteboard, and I was incredibly impressed. The fact that he took the time, he cared deeply, he was so passionate. This was a new Microsoft. I was really blown away, and at the end of the meeting, he was like, "Arun, I like some of your ideas. Why don't you come work for me? We'll figure something out."
Arun Ulag (00:12:53):
He didn't have a job open. I had just persuaded my wife, like four years ago, to move to Singapore. She works for Microsoft, too, so she had taken a new position, like, a year ago in the APAC region, and here was James saying, "Well, come work for me." He didn't have a job open, I wasn't looking to come back, I was just going to take next big job in APAC, and here was this guy saying come work for him. I was like, "Man ..." I was incredibly energized, and I had not worked in product for, like, 12 years, so it was a pretty risky thing to do, go from marketing to field and then go into product with a guy who was not really well known, with a product that wasn't really killing it, with a job that was completely undefined and I had to bring my whole family back, but I decided to go for it.
Arun Ulag (00:13:31):
I talked to my wife. She was like, "Well, if you're so passionate about this and you love data and you love Power BI and you have some ideas and you think this guy has some great ideas, too, then let's give it a shot," so that's what I did. That's kind of what brought me to Power BI. I literally started in the Power BI team a few weeks before Power BI became generally available in 2015.
Rob Collie (00:13:49):
Awesome. We've yet to have anyone on the show whose path was direct, you know?
Arun Ulag (00:13:56):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:56):
The circuitous route, all the little bounces and little left or right decisions, like Bugs Bunny at Albuquerque. Like, where do you turn? It's amazing where that zig zaggy path can take us. I think it's safe to say that that risky move, stepping off the plank into the abyss, that's worked out well.
Arun Ulag (00:14:20):
It's worked out all right.
Rob Collie (00:14:20):
You can probably call it a success move.
Arun Ulag (00:14:24):
I love it. I can't complain. I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to come to Power BI. It's awesome. I love it.
Tom Larock (00:14:30):
Rob, that's now the second time we've had James Phillips mentioned. At this point, he's got to come on the show.
Rob Collie (00:14:39):
He comes up a lot.
Tom Larock (00:14:41):
Yeah, he does. He comes up a lot.
Rob Collie (00:14:41):
You know who else comes up, is Amir.
Tom Larock (00:14:43):
It's the first time we've heard Souza's name, surprisingly. I'm actually surprised we haven't heard that name before, and I've known Mark through PASS for a long time.
Rob Collie (00:14:52):
Obi-Wan Souza, now there's a name [crosstalk 00:14:55].
Tom Larock (00:14:55):
The godfather. We call him the godfather.
Arun Ulag (00:14:57):
He's a really cool guy.
Tom Larock (00:14:59):
The stories I have ... Anyway, here's the thing. Amir gets in front of 15,000 salespeople and he does a demo and everybody loves it. Now, Rob, might I remind you, I believe it was you who told me, "Anything you see Amir demo won't be available for at least 18 months."
Rob Collie (00:15:20):
That's the old Amir. The new Amir has been properly shackled.
Tom Larock (00:15:28):
When Arun says, "I couldn't sell it," I'm like, "Of course you couldn't sell it. Didn't you know? If it's going to be 18 months before [crosstalk 00:15:34] be available."
Rob Collie (00:15:35):
It's even now part of Amir's mantra onstage, like, "I am not allowed to show you anything that isn't going to be in the product in the next three months," or something like that.
Tom Larock (00:15:44):
He would do these demos at PASS Summit that would just be phenomenal, and then Rob would be like, "Take it easy. Calm down, Tom. Everything you just saw, he won't get for a while. It'll come eventually."
Rob Collie (00:15:56):
He's a really funny guy. You know the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, "Camelot. Camelot," and then they go, "It's only a model."
Arun Ulag (00:16:12):
All I can say that, hey, Amir, these days, what he does demo, we do ship.
Rob Collie (00:16:18):
That's right. That's right.
Arun Ulag (00:16:21):
One of the things we're careful about is we don't demo stuff that's too far out, and if we do we call it out. "It's too far out. Beware. This is just early, early previews," but, no, we are very, very disciplined these days about being thoughtful about what we show and make sure we ship it.
Rob Collie (00:16:37):
Yeah, I agree.
Arun Ulag (00:16:39):
I wouldn't use the word shackle. Shackle is the wrong word. I would say he's empowered, because, look, it's great to dream up ideas. He's even more excited when we ship it, and even more excited when customers use it.
Rob Collie (00:16:51):
Yeah, so, what you're really saying is that you can't shackle him. There is no chain strong enough.
Arun Ulag (00:16:56):
You don't want to shackle Amir. You want to unleash Amir. He's such a asset for the Power BI team. He's such a force of nature. I'm so glad he's on our side. I'm so glad he's thinking about making Power BI take over the world as opposed to somebody else take over the world.
Rob Collie (00:17:14):
That's right. That's right. We've been joking on Twitter about dirty DAXing lately. Nobody puts Amir in the corner.
Arun Ulag (00:17:20):
That's so funny.
Rob Collie (00:17:21):
Let's talk about Power BI, and I thought that one of the funniest places we could start is, let's talk about this new Power BI icon, shall we?
Arun Ulag (00:17:29):
Really? That's where you want to start, Rob?
Rob Collie (00:17:33):
I just feel like it's a nice, light, fluffy, but also still kind of interesting, isn't it? Yeah, have you seen this, Tom? The first time I got a glimpse of this under super secret double handshake NDA threat of death, for a moment I thought, "Oh my gosh, I am being trolled. They're testing many. They're giving me a fake icon to see if I'll leak it, and if I leak it they'll know who did." I'm like, "I'm not falling for that." It's just a three bar column chart. That's all it is, and it's not even really something that you can render without gradient. It seems to break many, many rules of icon and logo design, and I know that there are some people in the community, some relatively prominent voices that are incredibly dismissive of it.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
They're like, "Oh, you mean that logo that's not a logo?" But the more I thought about it, I thought, "This might be the biggest flex ever, this icon." It's like, "We're going to take something that's so iconic about data, just a column chart, and say, "Yeah, that's us." It's a very, very, very, kind of aggressive move. Now, as a thought experiment for you, Arun, this is what I want to ask you. Let's say someone had a really bad day. They ate some bad food or something and in a delirium they, instead of hiring whoever they did branding-wise for this icon, you just accidentally hired me instead.
Arun Ulag (00:19:09):
Oh, God.
Rob Collie (00:19:10):
I came to you after deliberation and whatever large sum you were paying, and I brought you that icon, that logo, and said, "Let's do this," you would have kicked me out of the room, right?
Arun Ulag (00:19:25):
For all that money, you come up with a bar chart.
Rob Collie (00:19:29):
That's right. That's right. It's only when it comes from an incredibly reputable place, that you can trust something so bold. If I'd come in with it, you'd been like, "Okay. You did five minutes of work and you didn't do anything."
Tom Larock (00:19:43):
Is it the four bar one or the three bar?
Rob Collie (00:19:49):
It's three.
Tom Larock (00:19:50):
The four bar, which kind of looks like the old All Valley Tournament fist, right? It's just this three one, I see, just this little stacked bar chart, that's the new icon?
Arun Ulag (00:20:01):
Yeah, that's the new icon.
Tom Larock (00:20:05):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:20:06):
Tom, you're actually pointing out something interesting which is that, by choosing this, Microsoft has left themselves open on the flank. I'm going to come out with a product that's got the four bars.
Arun Ulag (00:20:17):
Oh, God. We never thought of that one.
Rob Collie (00:20:20):
It's like the seven minute abs in There's Something About Mary.
Tom Larock (00:20:26):
This version of Power BI is 25% less than what we had before?
Rob Collie (00:20:33):
Oh, come on. The bars are fatter, man.
Tom Larock (00:20:40):
Yes, that's true.
Arun Ulag (00:20:40):
You get more for less.
Rob Collie (00:20:41):
Is there anything at all you can tell us about that process?
Arun Ulag (00:20:43):
I would say, I love it. I had nothing to do with it. We have a phenomenal design team. It's led by a gentleman called Jonah Sterling. He's awesome, and Jonah's team drew up the whole process. How they do their magic, it's up to them, but I really do like it because Power BI is really about getting BI in the hands of everyone, I mean, everyone with data, and the idea that it's a bar chart is really simple. People get bar charts. They've seen them everywhere, so I love it. It's easy. It's simple. It appeals to everyone. We really want anybody thinking about data, anybody thinking about analytics to think about Power BI, and I think it accomplishes that goal.
Rob Collie (00:21:19):
That's the flex part of it. I like it.
Tom Larock (00:21:20):
The one thing I used to tell people about bar charts, because the product that I was working, that's what we had. Basically, our interface and dashboards were bar charts to show SQL server wait time, and you drill through from there, and I'd be in front of customers all the time, and I'd always say, "Yeah, it's a bar chart, because even the manager can understand the bar chart," and then the room would go silent, and they'd stop, and I'd be like, "Hey, Steve, you understand what the bar chart says," and he'd be like, "Yes, I do." I go, "See? Even the manager can understand what the bar chart is conveying. It's the simplest way to display information to that end user."
Rob Collie (00:21:58):
This is an expert from Tom LaRock's book, How to Get Promoted.
Tom Larock (00:22:05):
You got to speak the truth.
Arun Ulag (00:22:06):
A must read.
Rob Collie (00:22:08):
Yep. Speaking the truth always gets you ahead.
Tom Larock (00:22:09):
I never once had a manager say, "No, I don't understand what this is communicating to me."
Rob Collie (00:22:16):
Then, they make a note, like, never promote this guy.
Arun Ulag (00:22:20):
Don't invite him to meetings for god sakes.
Tom Larock (00:22:24):
Both of those things seem to be my ... Yeah, that's exactly how I live. I'm not in any meetings and I'm not promoted. Yeah, all right.
Rob Collie (00:22:35):
When you've reached the point where you've got so much air, so much white space between your dot and the other dots in the revered Gartner Magic Quadrant, you kind of earn a little bit of a right. It gives you a little bit Of air cover for such a bold icon choice as the bar chart, so, heady days, right? I don't remember there ever being someone with this big of a linear inches lead.
Arun Ulag (00:23:00):
It's awesome, and I think when it came out, one of the things that really made me laugh was a tweet by one of our community members that said, "Power BI's the only one following social distancing."
Rob Collie (00:23:13):
Oh, wow.
Arun Ulag (00:23:15):
I was like, "Wow." That really made me laugh.
Rob Collie (00:23:20):
I got to go find that tweet. That's great. Yeah, definitely got to track that down. I do, like probably 99% of the world, I just glance at the Quadrant. It's like a scoreboard, and then I move on. I never bother to read the report that goes with it or anything like that. I'm a soundbite consumer when it comes to this sort of stuff, but you, of course, talk to Gartner. You also probably read their report. Why such a lead? What do you attribute it to?
Arun Ulag (00:23:47):
I'd say a couple of things. First of all, I would say Gartner does have an incredibly rigorous methodology. Having been through this process a few times, they do ask us a lot of detailed questions and you can't just answer it. You have to show them demos. You have to submit them. You have to point to public documentation so they can verify it. You need to submit customer reference, but then there's a whole bunch of signal that they get directly from customers. They talk to thousands of customers a year who come to them for inquiry, so they hear directly from customers what they're interested in, what their questions are, and where they decide to go.
Arun Ulag (00:24:16):
Gartner introduced something called peer insights which is a public forum. Anybody can go in and submit reviews and talk about products, and so they get that signal directly, and then we get, literally, 45 minutes to tell our story. That's what we get, and we use every last second of it, believe it or not. That's the methodology, and if you look at what I would attribute our position to, I would say it's about two things. They look at the ability to execute which is one axis, and there, literally, the world is moving to Power BI. Every day I hear of customers standardizing on Power BI, rolling it to everyone, expanding access to people who never had access to a BI platform before, because it wasn't easy or it wasn't economically feasible to go give BI to everybody, and in the process, migrating from legacy and expensive BI platforms like [inaudible 00:25:05] and BusinessObjects, MicroStrategy, Tableau, Qlik.
Arun Ulag (00:25:08):
Every day I hear of customers migrating it, and guess what [inaudible 00:25:12], so the ability to execute, I think, is just obvious in terms of just the momentum, and you guys know it. You're in the space. You talk to customers every day. The second aspect of it is completeness of vision. When we started out six years ago, we started talking about how do we help our customers drive a data culture, and we were the only ones using those words at that point, and if you go back six years, not many folks were talking about a data culture. BI was still more of an elite thing that wasn't for everybody, and now a lot of the other vendors have started adopting our language.
Arun Ulag (00:25:42):
Everybody's talking about driving a data culture these days, and that's interesting and that's exciting because I think the industry has shifted its perspective. The thing I think that differentiates Power BI in terms of its completeness of vision is that we translate that into clear things that our customers can identify with, and it's really about three things, Rob, and you've heard this before from me. It's about how we empower every individual, and that's office-like experiences that are instantly familiar, infused with a ton of AI capabilities that automatically find patterns in your data.
Arun Ulag (00:26:13):
On the AI front, we can build on a lot of the capabilities that Microsoft has in the Azure AI team or MRS, so it isn't really a fair fight. We get to steal IP and then create business outcome focused experiences, and we are seeing massive success there. We have over 80,000 customers using the AI capabilities in Power BI, by far, I would say, the largest footprint in the industry. The second one is really about empowering every team, and BI's all about teamwork. It is a team sport. The insights that we share are much more valuable than the insights we keep for ourselves, obviously, but that's where Power BI has really done a really good job working with our colleagues in Microsoft Teams, in Excel, which is the world's most popular tool for working with data, by far, by far, and then the rest of the Power Platform, so you can take your insights and translate them into action with Power Apps or into automated business processes with Power Automate.
Arun Ulag (00:27:05):
Our vision around empowering every team is really, really exciting, and there's a brand new capability that's coming out. It's going to be demoed for the first time at the Business Applications Summit. I could tell you about it but then I'll have to ...
Rob Collie (00:27:17):
We'd have to edit it out.
Arun Ulag (00:27:19):
We'd have toe dit it out, but watch out for MBAS. It's going to be awesome. There's a brand new [inaudible 00:27:25] empowering every team, and then, when you think about empowering every organization which is our third pillar, I would say two things. Security is massive for us, and we've made a whole bunch of investments there and it's so far ahead of what's there in the industry, so customers really trust Microsoft and Power BI to get it right, and the second aspect of it, Rob, this is one that I think is going to be massively important. It's already very, very important for us today, it's about empowering the business analysts, the tens of millions of Excel developers who are advanced Excel users, but to help them build entire data solutions. Bring data in at scale, do sophisticated data preparation directly on Azure Data Link to be able to use cognitive services, use automated machine learning, build massive OLAP models, build pixel perfect [inaudible 00:28:10] reports, create Power BI reports, put them together in applications.
Arun Ulag (00:28:14):
All of these capabilities were always in the hands of the professionals. Now you can build a full stack BI solution without writing any code or using Excel-like formulae. That has never before been possible, and now with premium per user coming out, it's going to be available for purchase literally next week. It's all available at 20 bucks per user, so that's a crazy price point. I think this vision of really being able to empower every individual, every time and every organization and put all of this power in the hands of the business analyst is really exciting. It's exciting for us, it's exciting for our customers and it's exciting for partners, so, long answer, but that's why I think we have so much momentum.
Rob Collie (00:28:53):
Microsoft, as an end to end enterprise provider is a very, very difficult competitor for anyone else to match up against. It's funny, some of the same things from yesteryear, they were well-intentioned but they didn't work out right. They're still being used but now they're working much better, so the integration with SharePoint in those early versions was exactly the right spiritual thing. There were some really important details in that story that didn't go so well, but fast forward to today, Power BI runs, from an administration standpoint, in an office.com tenant. Okay. That's amazing. That is a really, really big deal. You're not adopting some separate administration framework.
Rob Collie (00:29:42):
You're not doing something different with your Active Directory, it's just right there in the foundation, in the skeleton of your company already. You mentioned security. Of course that ties in with all of that even within the Power Platform itself, like you hinted at. I was talking before we recorded about just jaw dropping success that we've had just this week with getting a Power BI model going to track our podcast stats. It is a very, very, very unfriendly non-Microsoft service that's ultimately the place where all of our stats are tracked, the Federation system, the syndicator, they offer, like everybody else, export to Excel, and is there one big button you can press to export all of your stuff to CSV? No. There are many, many, many buttons.
Rob Collie (00:30:31):
In fact, there's one more button every week because we add another episode, and the fact that we have now written an automation script that goes once a night, identifies how many episodes there are to download, first of all, as a variable, and drives basically mouse and keyboard automation to drive CSV download from a system that has no API, puts that, guess where, into a SharePoint document library where Power BI can pick it up on a scheduled refresh a couple hours later. Like, unbelievable.
Arun Ulag (00:31:06):
It's crazy. It's crazy. If I may ask, how long did it take you to do this?
Rob Collie (00:31:11):
Okay, I didn't do it. Kellan did it.
Arun Ulag (00:31:12):
How long did it take Kellan to do it?
Rob Collie (00:31:14):
Not very long. I think it took him just a couple of hours. The only thing that took him a little while was figuring out how to get it to run unattended. I don't know what the breakthrough there was but he had that breakthrough. That's just the other day, but, really, think about it, maybe like, I don't know, four hours total, and most of that time would not be repeated if we needed to do a second version of that. Like, now, with the knowledge that we've gained, it would probably only take him 30 minutes to do the same thing over again, and, yeah, you could imagine a software consultancy charging five, six figures, at least, for something far less capable than what we've got running.
Rob Collie (00:31:54):
How long did it take me to build the Power BI? So far, 45 minutes. It is amazing what can be done.
Arun Ulag (00:32:02):
It is absolutely crazy. That is kind of where business is going these days, the ability to build these entire systems in hours, minutes even, or maybe a couple of days, as opposed to weeks and months and years, and to put all of this power in the hands of business in a way that still IT gets to govern and have visibility, too, so they're not really getting upset, that's the Power Platform. When COVID hit, I think the world really woke up to the Power Platform because they needed to move the business forward with speed, with agility, and the Power Platform was right there, and you can argue that others have similar deals. That's great. However, Microsoft has all of them that are designed to work together from the ground up and they're already deeply integrated, and I think the world is just starting to wake up to this because you do need to evolve your processes as your business conditions change and you need to be able to do it instantly, and for you to be able to do it instantly, you need something that is already designed to work together and can effect those changes, so, yeah, I'm really excited to hear your story, because that's so similar to what all of our customers are going through, so, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:33:05):
Even for a company our size, it's pretty easy for us to very quickly acquire a similar footprint in terms of number of line of business systems as you would encounter at least at one division of an enterprise. It's not remotely proportional to the size of the company. It's proportional to the size of the number of needs, and there's different functions, and we have as many functions as an enterprise does, so we've got the same number of line of business systems, and the fact that we've been able to use our own tools, your tools, the Power Platform, and also, honestly, it's a hodgepodge of assortment of many different vendors, but the Microsoft stuff at the core of it has allowed us to exist in a region of the market that is otherwise very, very inhospitable.
Rob Collie (00:33:55):
I keep saying this because I love it, but we operate on a business model that is really, really great for the customer, very, very difficult for the consulting firm, and the Power Platform ... I'm not just saying this to suck up or whatever, it has made us possible. I've been calling this lately, like the second age of middleware, like the second era of middleware, because you do, you have all these systems and yet you need so much custom functionality that spans all of that. You think about Power BI, it itself is a form of incredibly flexible middleware. It's eating data from whatever systems you've got. They're certainly not all Microsoft systems, and BI is usually read-only. We're going to get to talking about that, so in terms of what keeps you up at night, my guess would be, the only competitors that really have a shot at doing damage are ones with a similar or at least some fraction of Microsoft's end to end footprint. We've watched Salesforce with their acquisition of Tableau. Did they complete the acquisition of Slack?
Arun Ulag (00:35:06):
I don't believe it has completed yet but I'm not really keeping tabs on it so I might be mistaken.
Rob Collie (00:35:10):
Okay, yeah. It's pretty clear that the battle lines are being drawn, but as you pointed out, they're having to go and buy completely separate companies to fill these gaps, whereas Microsoft's been growing them internally. I don't want to lead the witness. With such a successful market position as of today, what does worry you? Do you have things to worry about?
Arun Ulag (00:35:32):
Absolutely. I would say, two things. First of all, security really does keep me up at night, because customers are really bringing their most critical business data to Microsoft, to Power BI, and we take it very, very seriously. This is a world in which, it's the world of the cloud. It's the world of remote work, so we're making massive investments in security. Just a month or two ago, we had a big security moment where we talked about an end to end security story and investments, but that's really important for us, is how do we secure our customers' data and how do we help our customers secure their data. That's important today. It was important a year ago. It'll only grow in importance, and this is when I feel like, as an industry, we have to really take it very seriously for customers to really trust that we can take their data and give it the respect it deserves.
Arun Ulag (00:36:16):
The second aspect of it, I would say, is really complacency. We are just getting started in Power BI, so I don't want us to think that we have somehow, in some way, achieved success. I really do worry that we get complacent and that's a very, very dangerous thing to do, so for us, every customer matters. Every partner matters. Every community member partner matters. Every escalation where we fail to meet our customers' expectations is painful. We have a section that does that by our customer advisory team that Mark Reguera leads, and our friend Cass was a part of.
Arun Ulag (00:36:49):
They do something called a customer story section, and you would think, to looking at the name, it's about customer stories, it's about wonderful things. It really isn't. It's about three hours of us basically looking at all the painful cases where Power BI failed to live to our customers' expectations. I attend it rigorously every month, as do 40 other people in my team, and nobody makes them attend, but they're curious. They want to learn, because every time we fail to meet our customers' expectations, we care. It's painful. Every competitive loss is painful. I want to know. I want to know why we lost. Like, we didn't we measure up? We care deeply about it, and we're constantly learning and adapting, from the community, from within Microsoft, from the industry, we have to re-earn the trust and our customers' business every single day.
Arun Ulag (00:37:35):
What we did last week or last month or last quarter, really, the customers don't care about, so for me, this one is really, really important to me to make sure that we are on our toes, that we are hungry, and we do recognize that we want everybody on planet earth to use Power BI at some point in their career, and we're just getting started.
Rob Collie (00:37:53):
In my 13, 14 years at Microsoft, it seemed like we always needed a bogeyman. We always needed someone, even if we were sort of exaggerating the threat. I'm not saying that that's still what it's like. That was what it was, right? For a while there it was network computers. The NC was coming for the PC, and what was it, Scott McNealy at Sun, he was the villain in all of this, and then it was Netscape. Here comes Netscape. I was gone from Microsoft, gone from Office by the time Google Docs became a real threat. It's like, Office never had a bogeyman when I was there. They got one. They got a good, good bogeyman for a while. Is that culture still kind of the same? Do you still need that like we used to?
Arun Ulag (00:38:40):
I think the culture has materially changed, especially after [inaudible 00:38:43] took over. The thing that we really, really care about and I wake up every day thinking about is usage, and the second thing I think about is satisfaction. If we can get usage right and if you can get satisfaction right, everything else will take care of itself, so we don't really think about, at least in my team, and most of Microsoft these days, we don't think about the bogeyman. We really think about, hey, can we get our customers to use our product? Can we get them to love it? Can we get them to be evangelists for it? Can communities form? Can people bring other people into the fold?
Arun Ulag (00:39:13):
That gets us excited because it's a positive emotion. It's about being useful. It's about being valued. It's about people loving the thing that you're making. Like, just the story that you shared, with Power BI and Power Automate, like, being able to do things they couldn't do before, people building businesses they couldn't build before, and that is such a positive thing, so I think Microsoft has fundamentally changed and we've always been, at least in the Power BI team, we've always been about, hey, let's get every user. Let's make them happy. Let's get the next user. Let's make them happy, and that's what really, really excites us.
Rob Collie (00:39:44):
I could definitely see where that would be a positive change. It served its purpose back in my day. It was the antidote for complacency. There are multiple potential different antidotes for complacency, but you do need at least one. Of course, we did see some of the downsides of the old antidote, the bogeyman antidote. I think it's a very close cousin, at least, of the trouble that Microsoft landed in in 1999, 2000, with the feds. Even if the actions that Microsoft was taking at the time, you could argue them one way or another, the attitude that went with it did not play well. I remember, we were sitting there as employees at the time, watching our executives in their depositions going, "We're the bad guys."
Rob Collie (00:40:35):
It was kind of a, "Yeah, are we the bad guys?" It didn't feel good. Every other aspect of working at Microsoft had always felt good. That was a dark time, not just for the company but even just for the esprit de corps of working there. I think I wold much prefer the new antidote to the old. With such success, how far away from a saturation point are we? When automobiles were first introduced, for a while, the goal was to sell an automobile to every family that didn't have one, and so there was sort of a gold rush growth period of that flavor.
Rob Collie (00:41:09):
It's not like the auto industry died after that, but it definitely changed from that first acquisition of an automobile to, now we've got to think about, how do we appeal to people that already have one. If we were going to use that metaphor, where do you think we are in the Power BI colonization story? How much longer do we have before we run out of that one dimension of growth? Where do we start reaching diminishing returns on that?
Arun Ulag (00:41:36):
It's a really good question. I'll make the argument for why I think we're just getting started, and you tell me if you buy it. Let's look at it in terms of three dimensions. Our objective is to help our customers drive a data culture, where everyone can make every decision on the data. If you look at the workforce on the planet, it's approximately three billion people. Everybody from frontline workers to customer service representatives, to manager, everybody, how many of these folks have data on their hands that they can use to make decisions today? Not very many. I would say, hey, in terms of reaching people who need access to data to make better decisions, we're just getting started. If you look beyond the working population and to students, and we have, I would say, approximately, maybe a billion and a half or so students on the planet, and if you go look at middle school and above, maybe it's about somewhere over a billion, how many of them can learn with data?
Arun Ulag (00:42:30):
How many of them get data literacy as they get into middle school and above? Not very many, so there again, we're just getting started, and then let's look at the third dimension that I like to think about which is, if you look at the volume of data out there, not just your transactional systems or record, the forms of data that have existed for quite a while, but your IoT systems, your human interactions, your product telemetry. How much of that is available and used for analytics today, even in the best companies? I would say, a trickle, so if you look at all of these three dimensions, the workforce, the learning population, and the amount of data available or useful for analytics or can be used for analytics, we're just getting started, so it feels to me that saturation is just so far away. It just feels like we're at the very beginnings of a massive opportunity here. What do you think? You live this world, too.
Rob Collie (00:43:21):
I buy that. I think, in a way, you just described my side of the business. I'm working my way around like Socrates to this self serving angle here in this line of questioning. I'll just clear that upfront, but the three dimensions you talked about, loosely, with some exceptions here and there, but loosely I could sort of put them under the umbrella of adoption, and I used the word we when I asked you the question originally, and it's a bad habit of mine. I still feel like I'm part of the Microsoft crew.
Arun Ulag (00:43:51):
You are.
Rob Collie (00:43:52):
I'm waiting for my paychecks to come in.
Arun Ulag (00:43:55):
They do. It just comes in a slightly different way.
Rob Collie (00:43:57):
Yeah. You guys have lost my address. Let me get you my direct deposit info. I wouldn't mind a little supplement. Okay. I didn't know really anything about the field, how it was organized, when I worked in Redmond. There's still a lot of mystery there, to be honest, but I have a much, much, much clearer picture of it now, obviously, as a Microsoft partner. There's a level of customer, where there's enough seats at a potential customer, that they start to get direct Microsoft attention. I completely agree that within an organization that has signed on the dotted line and started to adopt the Power Platform at the highest levels, there's a tremendous, tremendous amount of runway of adoption, and I agree with you. We're in the single digit percentages completion of that story, for sure, but in terms of the number of nodes that are more central in towards Microsoft in terms of the number of enterprise customers, I'm really asking you, from your perspective, how much longer do you expect to be in that phase one growth in terms of getting big enterprise customers to buy in at a high level?
Arun Ulag (00:45:11):
The way we think about adoption is, it doesn't start with enterprise customers signing on the dotted line. It really starts with people choosing to adopt Power BI, and so, literally, every organization almost, pretty much, without exception, every organization that's using Power BI, they got started because somebody went to powerbi.com and downloaded Power BI Desktop. It's typically somebody did that at some point, and that's completely free, because we don't want to choke content creation. That was radical, believe it or not, when we shipped Power BI Desktop, to make it completely free, and we update it monthly, so that's how it starts, and starts with people adopting Power BI because they want to do something with data, and then they find something interesting and then they share it with somebody else, and that gets the adoption of the service going.
Arun Ulag (00:45:55):
The final adoption really just is how Power BI gets started. Somewhere along the way, IT notices and the next data project, they say, "Everybody is using Power BI. Why not use it to build a data project?" Further along the way, somebody goes and says, "Hey, maybe we should standardize on this BI platform. We have 18. Let's look around and see which is the one that people are using and which is the one they like. Oh, well it looks like it's Power BI," and by the way, it's the industry leader. Gartner says so, Forrester says so, let's look at the price. Oh, God, is it really a quarter of the price of what we're paying for everybody else?
Arun Ulag (00:46:28):
They're like, "Come on, why wouldn't we go with Power BI?" That's typically what I say, and the way we always think about it is, Microsoft salespeople are most efficient when we're not trying to heavily sell the product, where there is strong customer demand. That is viral adoption, and then the salespeople can come and help customers figure out the most efficient way to buy it, buy it with something else, talk to procurement, talk to the CIO. That's kind of how we see the balance. We really do think that adoption has to grow first, followed by sales, and there, I will still go back. There are three billion people in the workforce. There are a billion and a half people who are studying.
Arun Ulag (00:47:05):
There's a tiny amount of data in the world that's being analyzed by Power BI today, and so, it does really feel like we're just getting started.
Rob Collie (00:47:12):
Something that I say all the time is that every day you open up your web browser and you'll see something to the effect of, "The next big thing in data is X," and it's like, short attention span theater, we can't sit still very long. We've got to have something new and hot to talk about, and of course, it's just how the media works. Tech media is no different than regular media, and I'm just, no, no, no, no, no. The next big thing in data is really getting the basics, the fundamentals done right for the first time ever." That's how much green field I think there is, and I think this is something where it's kind of funny, like, listen, there's no bad news here. The Gartner Quadrant position, the evolution from, as you said, we made Power BI free. That was kind of a rogue move.
Rob Collie (00:48:01):
It wasn't that long ago where this whole technology stack was considered a rogue entity, for no good reason.
Arun Ulag (00:48:08):
It was just new.
Rob Collie (00:48:09):
The technology was solid. It did have some very provocative messaging to it, this notion of culture, this notion of bottom up, this notion of citizen developer, the original wording of self service. It was a very threatening message to many, many, many people. It was almost like a guerrilla campaign promoting this stuff out in the world for a long time, and our earliest clients reflected this. Some really aggressive early adopter, like people who were looking for revolution. There aren't that many of those running around. We're well into the early majority now. There aren't many of those revolutionaries out there. We ran out of those years ago, so this is all really good news. Last month, we sold an amount of work, and keep in mind, when we sell work, we don't sell single large projects.
Rob Collie (00:49:02):
You don't expect us to have a lot of variation month to month. Not much variance. It's lots of fast projects, because that's what the Power Platform allows, and we lean into that fully. The amount of work we sold in February is equivalent to 25% of last year's total.
Arun Ulag (00:49:22):
Wow. Congratulations.
Rob Collie (00:49:23):
Unreal, right? Everything we're talking about here, like becoming the responsible choice, becoming almost like a default choice in some cases, and this is all good news. I'm not complaining, and yet, at the same time, oh, I've got to have something to be dissatisfied about, so there's something almost lost when people say, "Hey," and I see this, they go, "Oh, look, Power BI sure looks a lot like Tableau. It's being used by about as many people in the organization today as Tableau, and it costs a lot less and it's easier to manage. Just go with it," as if it's a commodity, and it's not. It is not a commodity. Power BI is magic.
Arun Ulag (00:50:09):
I love it. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:50:11):
It is life changing magic, so I'm benefiting from this notion of, no one ever got fired for hiring IBM, that old saying, like Power BI being this responsible, kind of boring choice, is good for the bottom line a lot of ways, and yet, when I start hearing these tools mentioned as if they're equivalent, I go, "Oh, no. No, not equivalent." I don't really have a question there, to be perfectly honest. That's just a statement, really.
Arun Ulag (00:50:43):
I see where you're going. I don't know if it's a choice, necessarily, because in the past, it has been a choice. You go pick one of these legacy BI platforms and make it the platform and people hate it. They just hate it, and they hated it for good reasons. The user experiences were terrible, the performance sucked, and these tools rarely changed. If you look at Power BI, adoption always starts at the ground up, even when IT has stepped in and they say to standardize on Power BI, and folks who may have used another platform are moving to Power BI, you will see some things that are still true.
Arun Ulag (00:51:17):
One is the fact that Power BI's about people. It's about teams. It's about viral adoption, so people are always sharing and discussing and collaborating, so it's alive in many ways. The second thing is that Power BI's always changing. We ship new features on the service every week. We ship a new release of Power BI Desktop every month. People thought that was cute when we started. We've been doing it for five and a half years, and it comes out like clockwork, and a lot of our innovation is user driven. There are 23,000 ideas on ideas.powerbi.com. 23,000 ideas, okay?
Arun Ulag (00:51:46):
Well, there are some that are redundant, but still, that's a lot of ideas that customers want to go build, and we take a lot of pride in getting those votes off the table, to say, "How many votes did we ship in this week, in this month, in this quarter, in this semester?" The fact that it is responsive and it's alive and it's changing keeps creating a community, keeps creating fans, keeps creating enthusiasm, so even in the case when somebody didn't choose to use Power BI, maybe the day they started, somebody said, "Hey, you got to go use this today," but then they get sucked in because they see a team, a product, a company that's listening, that's evolving, that's growing, and that's exciting. People want to be part of something like this, so that's why I'm so excited.
Arun Ulag (00:52:30):
Each time we come up with a new feature that takes votes off the table, we celebrate. That's my reaction to what you just said.
Rob Collie (00:52:35):
You and I have never had an argument. There's never been anything like that. We've always gotten along really well. The places where we, backstage, occasionally have a difference of opinion or something, I've been thinking about this, and I've come to the following theory. I wanted to share it with you and see what you think about it. If you ask me if I care about adoption or selling, in terms of Power BI, I'm of course going to say, "Well, I care about both. If the C-suite signs off on Power BI being the tool, or even just an approved tool and is providing support for it, then things are going to be a lot better than if they don't. We're not going to get the service stood up without their help." I'm not going to say no to either of those, and the same thing for you. Of course you're going to need to care about both of those things.
Rob Collie (00:53:31):
It's just that the nature of our roles, yours versus mine for a moment, each one of us is a little closer to one end of that spectrum than the other. It is a spectrum. My company is more on the adoption side than on the convince the CIO it's the right move side, or address the CIO's concerns or whatever. Every now and then we are. Again, this is not 100%. We work with a lot of the Microsoft field, and actually been making an effort to do more of that. We originally grew our company with nothing, no cooperation at all, which of course makes total sense, me being ex-Microsoft, we would never work with Microsoft, but we've been doing a better job of that over the past couple years, and you can't take a pass on adoption, either, but if a CIO has a complaint or a concern or something, you're likely to be talking to them, whereas we're closer to the trenches.
Rob Collie (00:54:24):
It's just the difference in our jobs, really, and the things that we see. I'll just go ahead and put all my cards on the table. What I'm really hoping is that, sooner or later, because you kind of run out of new, large enterprise accounts to convince, that we're going to find ourselves increasingly talking about almost exactly the same things. Those two ends of the spectrum are going to start to collapse into each other, and the things that I care about, the things that I'm seeing, I don't know that they would be appropriate today for them to be your primary concerns. It just wouldn't make any sense.
Rob Collie (00:54:59):
A secondary concern, for sure, but for me, they're all primary, and so. I'm not sure I'm going to land that. This is an example of instructions to loop. I don't know what the hell I'm going to do here, man. You're going to have to bail me out in editing so I don't sound stupid. I agree with you. Adoption is very, very early, and that's really, really exciting, so this brings me around to the Excel user, and this is, of course, fantasy. If all Microsoft were, were two products, Power BI and Excel, there would be a very different integration story than what we're seeing today, and the reason I say this is that out in the world today, in terms of future Power BI authors, people who would actually build models, build data sets, the number of them that are currently VLOOKUP and Pivot people is so large that the rest of the audience rounds to zero.
Rob Collie (00:56:07):
That's the audience. We talk about growing adoption. What we say about growing adoption's also all of those other things you're talking about, all those data sources that are the variety of data that's not being analyzed, that's not being intelligently inspected at all, that's really the same problem as penetration into this VLOOKUP and Pivot audience, and again, the shift from Power Pivot to Power BI, yeah, I was a little grumpy about it at the time, I'll admit, but whatever grumpiness I had was misplaced, again. It's been very, very good for our business. This has been a good thing. I'm not complaining, and yet, this holy grail of how do we ... We again. How do you, Microsoft ...
Arun Ulag (00:56:53):
No, we.
Rob Collie (00:56:53):
Okay, fine. I do include myself in it, because we're part of the same crew in this sense. How do we reach those people, because I still run into people all the time who are up to their eyeballs in manual work in the old, traditional VLOOKUP and Pivot and they have no idea that Power BI is essentially like modern Excel for them, and this is the shame. The other thing we were talking about before, like Microsoft being this big company with all these incredibly lateral resources and all this integration that we get and everything, we benefit from that. The flip side, though, is that when you have important products with different incentives, it's very hard to get the level of intensive investment that's required to do something that if the whole company was just those two products, it would be relatively easy to align for, so my only criticism, it's not even really a criticism.
Rob Collie (00:57:49):
It's more like a criticism by omission, about the Excel integration features that we're seeing these days, is that they're all downstream from model creation. They're all downstream from data set creation. The thing that keeps me up all the time, the thing I not really worry about but it's like my hobby that I obsess about, is, how do we save these people? We're literally improving their lives. We're not spreading awareness like wildfire through that crowd. We're allowing so much suffering to continue. Ignore the money for a moment.
Rob Collie (00:58:22):
A big part of what keeps me going, keeps us going as a company, at least originally and to this day, really, is just how much people light up, they just become happier. I just want there to be some future in which something that's deeper than lip service, that's deeper than a skin deep functionality, that does something about this. Even with Power Pivot today, it's off by default. To get to DAX, you have to go into COM add-ins. It's like, we couldn't hide this functionality from those people better than what we are today. This is obviously something that's near and dear to my heart. You knew it was going to come up.
Arun Ulag (00:59:04):
Let me share a couple of thoughts. First of all, we've always been working with the Excel team closely. The last 24 months, our partnership has gone to a completely different level. The head of Excel product management is Brian Jones, awesome guy. He and I talk, like, twice a week, and we've been talking twice a week for a couple of years. His teams and my teams are working very, very closely together. We are acting in many ways as a single product team. Obviously, they have a much larger population with all the caveats, but we are really trying to figure out how we serve our customers together, and it helps the fact that Power BI is sold through Office and licensed through E5 in many cases, really helps, because the incentives are aligned across their management chain and ours, so I'll start with that.
Arun Ulag (00:59:43):
Then, I'll break it down into two things. Let's talk about consumers and let's talk about creators. For consumers, our vision is that, hey, it shouldn't matter if you choose to consume in Excel or Power BI. Regardless of whether you choose to consume in Excel or Power BI, you should be able to work with the same data sets in Power BI. They should be automatically [inaudible 01:00:01]. The right security logic should apply. They should be MIP labeled appropriately. They should have the right level of organizational certification. You should be able to put this content together into a single Power BI application and distribute that through Teams.
Arun Ulag (01:00:16):
All of that, the consumption experience, are deeply intertwined, because you shouldn't force anybody to rebuild their Excel workbook as a Power BI report. It's pointless. Excel's great at a number of things that Power BI isn't great at, and Power BI is great at a bunch of things, so at the consumption level, our vision is to enable seamless interoperability between Power BI and Excel and mix and match them together at will, powered by the same underlying semantic models which are Power BI data sets. That's where I've been going with the consumption experience, and it really addresses a huge problem for enterprise customers, because Excel is the world's most popular tool for working with data by far. However, there's lots of Excel disconnected workbooks where people typically refer to as Excel sprawl, which means that people are sometimes not making decisions based on the right data and that drives people crazy because they're making the wrong decision or arguing with each other about whose Excel is right, so, consumption, we're bringing them together and allowing them to mix and match, as well.
Arun Ulag (01:01:11):
Let's shift to creators. There, we're taking two different approaches. The first is, even VLOOKUPs are not super simple, and building a Power BI report ain't that simple either, because it has a lot of sophistication to it. What we're trying to do is we're saying, "Hey, for your first step into Power BI, for your first step into modeling, no modeling should be required." Just a few months ago, we took our very first step, here. We shipped something called Quick Read, which is the ability for you to copy and paste a table in. Power BI will figure out what visualizations make sense and give you a couple of clicks, but you can adjust it. That's it.
Arun Ulag (01:01:46):
It's designed for the business user who doesn't know anything about Power BI or VLOOKUPS and then it instantly builds a report for you and you don't really think about it as a report. You think about some way to represent your data so you can get some insights out of it. We are seeing really quick adoption for that. Now, imagine this experience everywhere where there are tables of data, everywhere, and our experiences will get better as we learn from consumer behavior. One is, for creators, we're saying, first step is no creation necessary. The service does it automatically for you, and then you can tell us what you're interested in, so that's one angle we're taking.
Arun Ulag (01:02:21):
The second angle we're taking, for the tens of millions of advanced Excel developers, is really to put a ton of power in their hands. VLOOKUP was amazing, because imagine ... I remember the time when I discovered VLOOKUP in Excel. I said, "Oh my God. Look what I can do now." Everybody's gone through that, and then you see Power BI and see what it can do and it opens your horizons to all these things that are now possible, data, so [inaudible 01:02:44]. You can visualize with hundreds of visual, all these things that Power BI makes possible, but look beyond that. Where we're going is to say, "Hey, you can do everything to build a full data solution, full data preparation at scale, billions of rows of data running on Power BI data flows, AI enrichments, large scale Power BI data sets, hundreds of gigs of data, again, build through desktop without having to necessarily go into professional tooling, the ability to analyze realtime data with, again, drag and drop experiences."
Arun Ulag (01:03:14):
When you think about the advanced Excel user, we're really thinking way beyond modeling. We're thinking about the full data experience, the ability to go from where the bytes originate, all the way into full analytical solutions without having to ever call IT, without having to call a pro developer and put this power in the hands of business, all the time making sure that IT has full governance and control, and with premium per user, all of these capabilities start at 20 bucks per user per month, so that's kind of where we're going. When I think about consumers and for creators and create as two different ends of the spectrum, help people just get started with no modeling or design skills required, and then all the way to building full end to end data solutions.
Rob Collie (01:03:55):
I'm going to be very deliberate with my word choice here. I look forward to your ever-evolving creator story as it evolves and progresses over time. That's the appetizer. I want to talk about a main course some day. Let me change gears for a moment and say, by the time this podcast goes live, this will be kind of old news, but the long overdue removal of Power Pivot from our name is happening this evening.
Tom Larock (01:04:27):
What?
Rob Collie (01:04:30):
We have been Power Pivot Pro since 2009 when I started the blog, and Power Pivot Pro was just meant to be my name, my avatar.
Arun Ulag (01:04:39):
You are the pro. You're the Power Pivot Pro.
Rob Collie (01:04:41):
I was the pro. If I was thinking about it being a company, I would have put an S on the end.
Arun Ulag (01:04:45):
Pros.
Rob Collie (01:04:49):
Of course, over the years we've become known to a lot of people, in short, as P3. Turns out there's a lot of P3s. There's even a P3 Pro Team Pack running around that even users our color scheme, strangely, and so, we've deliberately executed a two stage process where rebranded our website about a year ago to bring the P3 forward in the logo and to put the Power Pivot Pro text, put that in the background, while maintaining the powerpivotpro.com URL. We are going to be forever known as P3 Adaptive. We're going to be p3adaptive.com. Powerpivotpro will redirect. We will never again put a Microsoft product name in the name of a company or a URL. We've learned our lesson there. We're not going to be, like, Power BI Incorporated or something like that. Uh-uh (negative), because you know what's happening six months from now, is you're just going to rename yourself Chart.
Arun Ulag (01:05:51):
Nice.
Rob Collie (01:05:52):
Or Microsoft Data. These are the places where we've had discussions in the past, which is the ones I'm really talking about. I'm not really in on Power Pivot, really. For me, Power Pivot is almost like a placeholder for this creator evangelism, and I mean the citizen developer creator evangelism, the ones that are capable of VLOOKUP and Pivot today, and these are such an enthusiastic net promoter audience of Microsoft. These people love, love, love the tools that Microsoft has given them and they still don't know about the best ones, in some ways, for their analysis, anyway. This will be forever my religious mission, is whatever the technology solution is, it doesn't matter what it is. It doesn't have to be anything that we've seen so far, but it's almost like we owe it to these people to make this stuff more discoverable, make the on ramp from their existing work to the new world, make that an easier discovery and transition. End of soliloquy, monologue, filibuster. If there's anything you want to react to there you can. Otherwise, we can move on.
Tom Larock (01:07:09):
I'm shocked. I will tell you, if you want to avoid having or being tied to a Microsoft product name, just don't use the word power and you'll be fine.
Rob Collie (01:07:20):
Or mesh.
Tom Larock (01:07:21):
Or mesh. How many meshes do they have?
Rob Collie (01:07:24):
All right, so, I'm sure you have. Have you seen the Wolfram dat types in Excel?
Arun Ulag (01:07:28):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:07:29):
As data types, I was like, "I don't care," but when I saw all of the rich federated data, like, third party data, that was available through these data types, I just went, "Wow. Give me some of that in my Power BI models." Microsoft is forever unable to comment on plans, but is this something that interests you, this Wolfram stuff that's showed up in Excel.
Arun Ulag (01:07:57):
It absolutely interests me, and I would go so far as to say we would love to have that in Power BI. Some things have to happen for that to be true, and we are working on it, so it will become true at some point. I don't have a specific date for you, Rob, but I'd love to see that in Power BI. However, there is a capability that not everybody's already aware of, which is Power BI data types in Excel. What Wolfram gives you is the ability to take your objects and essentially associate them with a single cell, so the single cell no longer is about a specific value. It can represent a whole city with any of the properties of the city, or it can represent a celebrity, or it can represent anything in real life.
Arun Ulag (01:08:31):
Now, with Power BI data types for enterprise customers, you can do exactly that. You can go define the entities that make sense for you, your customers, your products, your suppliers, et cetera, and associate those tables with Power BI, and publish them to Excel, so, essentially, you get the ability to have enterprise data types live and work in Excel just magically, and they're all relevant and important for enterprise. This is was the single biggest point of feedback that Excel got when they demoed their data types capability to enterprise customers. They were like, "We love it," and we want to make sure that we can do it for our own data types.
Arun Ulag (01:09:05):
The good news is that we work closely with the Excel team. That's in the product today. Everyone can go try it.
Rob Collie (01:09:10):
That's encouraging. Again, no promises, no timeline. Were you around and paying attention when Azure Data Market was a thing?
Arun Ulag (01:09:17):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:09:19):
I was so excited about that. I know that the team that was working on it was, as well, and I understand some of the headwinds that they ran into. It's just such an obvious connect the dots. All this data out there, that, whether you're paying for it or not, whether it's free, public domain, or whether it's premium, it should just be so easy to connect to it and cross reference. Oh my gosh, Power BI is a cross referencing tool for the ages. That's the thing about data models, I think that most of the world hasn't woken up to yet, is just how powerful, spliced across silo, data sets are. It's just mind blowing. I go to developer conferences sometimes where everyone's a big data specialist. They're developers. I'll throw a demo out there across multiple fact tables, and I'll just say, "Look, I'm the least technical person in the room and I can do magical things that you can't."
Rob Collie (01:10:17):
I just throw down the gauntlet, and it lands. They're all jealous. They're like, "How are you able to do this?" It's just magic, and every time you get some data like that that you can cross reference against, gosh, things about markets and demographics, and temperature trends and so many things that would trigger whole new lines of thinking, and Power BI has really got the kind of ecosystem that this sort of thing can plug into. This is another one of those ideas, it's like, the first couple times that maybe it emerges above the water line, it isn't quite in the form that it's ultimately need to be, but this is an idea that's going to keep coming back.
Arun Ulag (01:10:53):
Yeah, and, look, it is a real need, and I'm sure we'll figure something out here. I'm sure we'll figure something out here. I can't say more about that right now unfortunately.
Rob Collie (01:11:02):
I totally understand and appreciate you saying what you have. All right, so, as we wrap up here, five years out, what do you think's going to change? Do you think, five years from now, Power BI has moved closer to association with Azure, has moved closer to association with Office? I badly want to make you ... Like, the congressional hearings. You have to choose one or the other. Yes or no.
Arun Ulag (01:11:25):
If I had to pick one, I would pick Office, and here's why. Our objective is to put Power BI in the hands of everybody so they can make decisions with data, and most people on planet earth, they are familiar with Office, so if I want to get Power BI in the hands of everybody, I would say, "Hey, Office is where most of the users are." That's what I lean towards, because if we don't have users, then nothing else matters.
Rob Collie (01:11:48):
All right. Ding. That was the correct answer. Okay. Moving on.
Arun Ulag (01:11:51):
Rob from the Office team says, "Correct answer."
Rob Collie (01:11:55):
These demonstrations are always meant to capture the imagination. That's what they do, but the Mesh, which used to mean something different ... There was a former Microsoft product called Mesh that was a file sharing tool. We were watching the Mesh thing and going like, "Oh my God, we've been talking about dashboards all these years, this two dimensional metaphor for the control panel of your business or whatever." With Mesh, are we going to go 3D? Are we going to have cockpits? If so, I just want to be on record as being, just like data culture, Microsoft was the first to talk about it, you heard cockpit here first.
Arun Ulag (01:12:31):
Love it, Rob. I think you're onto something. I think we do need to bring Power BI in to the real world, into the world that we live in and work in every day. You know that Power BI's the only BI product today that supports mixed reality, that we actually have a Power BI app in production in HoloLens and we have real customers using it today. One of the best demos I saw from our team in Israel which is a core part of our Power BI development team, is that they actually have a brand new building in Herzliya and it's close to Tel Aviv and they have maintenance apps for their building elevators with Power BI reports that are pinned right next to the elevator, so you wear your HoloLens, you walk down the corridor, and right next to the elevator, hovering in air over there is a Power BI report, and you can see the stats with that elevator right there. That's crazy. You can say, "Hey, that's great that you have it in HoloLens, but how many headsets do people have?"
Arun Ulag (01:13:26):
I would say this, we're really ahead of the curve. The price of these headsets will drop. The user experience will improve. The field of vision will increase. The battery will lost longer, and it will get much lighter. That's what happens with technology, and as we do that, Power BI will enter more and more in the real world. There's one other thing that I want to say that's going to be another exciting announcement at MBAS, the Microsoft Business Applications Summit. I can't tell you what it is yet, but it'll take a giant leap forward where we'll show you how Power BI comes into your physical world with very, very broad adoption, so come to Microsoft Business Applications Summit.
Arun Ulag (01:14:01):
You're going to be blown away. Three major new capabilities will be demoed for the very first time. I'm so excited to tell you about it. I have to hold myself back, otherwise my team will kill me, especially my marketing team.
Rob Collie (01:14:13):
Will all three be in the keynote?
Arun Ulag (01:14:15):
Yes. They will all be in the keynote, and I think this time we might have to do two keynotes because each one is 30 minutes, so we might have to do two of them back to back, so attend both, please. It's going to be exciting.
Rob Collie (01:14:26):
We'll definitely set time aside to do that. I'm contractually obligated to ... Now, I'm really excited. Normally I'd put it off, but not anymore. Three things? That's a lot of things.
Arun Ulag (01:14:39):
Never before seen in public.
Rob Collie (01:14:41):
All right, well, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you'd like to talk about?
Arun Ulag (01:14:45):
There's lots of things we didn't get to talk about, Rob, and we could spend the rest of the day and I'd have so much fun, but I'd say, hey, thank you so much, Rob. We love the folks at P3 Adaptive. You guys have been such a huge part of the Power BI story. We love our community so much. You guys are a core part of the community itself, so, thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data, by P3 Adaptive podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day.
Donald Farmer is a data artist and Jedi of sorts. His BI wisdom is unmatched and he shares this knowledge as we cover his early interest in computers (and the power that they gave the user), the history of PowerPivot from one of the former "faces of Microsoft BI", and so much more! It's so very easy to respect this venerable figure of the data world. Here's Donald's website, Treehive Strategy
References in this episode:
Thomas Davenport's Competing on Analytics
Donald's Treehouse
Donald As PowerPivot Yoda
Donald As Qlik Yoda
Rob's Blog Post Featuring Alison Farmer's Artwork
Episode Timeline:
- 3:45 - Donald has had the data itch for a very long time and discovered power at an early age. It's a heck of an origin story!
- 11:15- The guys share some Donald Farmer stories, Tom's Donald inspired epiphany, and the Data Mining Add-In
- 20:00 - The history of Project Gemini AKA Power Pivot, the death of ProClarity, and the importance of tools of choice
- 39:45 - Data Artistry, some great Bill Gates stories, remote working
- 58:45 - The Community of purpose, and Power BI's features vs the competition, and the Treehive
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. Today, we welcome Donald Farmer. I had the pleasure of working with Donald way back when, during the earliest days of Power Pivot, and even greater pleasure, the greater honor of calling him an old friend. In the world of data, you're just not going to find someone warmer, more sincere, funnier, or dare I say, wiser, than Donald Farmer. He's also pretty humble, so he probably wouldn't like me saying those things about him. But tough, I'm recording his intro on my own. As is customary with our guests, Donald's got a very interesting backstory path from then to now, but I would dare say his backstory would take the Pepsi challenge with anyone's.
Rob Collie (00:00:39):
We had a really free-flowing conversation. Didn't really set a lot of agenda for this one. And I think it played out really well. We just got into some really interesting corners, some really funny vignettes, and of course, pearls of wisdom. That's what Donald's here for. We talk about his brief involuntary stint as Power Pivot Yoda, his more than passing resemblance Tommy Chong, and also how his willingness to blend his creative talents, artistic side with this world of data really inspired me and gave me the confidence to lean into my own voice, which has been incredibly important to me over the last decade. He's a great person. It was a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:20):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:24):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your cohost, Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business, just go to p3adaptive.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:47):
Welcome to the show, Donald Farmer. How are you, old friend?
Donald Farmer (00:01:51):
I am great, thanks. Thank you for having me.
Rob Collie (00:01:53):
We invented this podcast so that we could have you on, and we played it cool for a while. We didn't want to just go rushing right in and have you be right out of the gate, but this is our reason.
Donald Farmer (00:02:04):
No pressure then.
Rob Collie (00:02:06):
No pressure at all. Yeah. Just be yourself.
Donald Farmer (00:02:08):
Well, I'm delighted to be here, really. It's great.
Rob Collie (00:02:11):
Well, we're going to have fun. So I thought we'd start here. We've had some very interesting people on this show who have careers in data. We've had some very, very, very interesting backgrounds, some very interesting origin stories. We've had horse trainers, we've had NFL quarterbacks, we've had marine biologists. I think you're also in contention. One of your former lives puts you on this map. I'm fishing for it. What am I fishing for?
Donald Farmer (00:02:39):
I'm not even sure what you're fishing for, because I've done so much in my so-called career, but I've worked in fish farming, I've worked in archeology. I met my wife when we were working for an archeological excavation unit. What else have I done?
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
It was the archeology that I was fishing for, but I hadn't thought about fish farming as I was fishing. Was it medieval archeology?
Donald Farmer (00:02:59):
It was. I was particularly interested in medieval cities and the growth of medieval cities.
Rob Collie (00:03:04):
Not to be too specific. That is so awesome. So, which was first, the fish farming or the medieval archeology?
Donald Farmer (00:03:14):
Oh, the medieval archeology. The fish farming was a kind of site thing. I can tell you a little bit about that. It is interesting, but the study of history, archeology, and languages were really important to me. That was really where I started, and drifted into doing all sorts of things, creating applications for the study of archeology, creating applications, databases for managing archeological sites, things like that. And then we lived very remotely in Scotland. The nearest house was about two miles from us, the nearest town was 15 miles from us. And so we lived fairly remotely, and there's a relatively limited amount of things going on out there. There's some forestry, there's some farming, and there was a fish farm.
Donald Farmer (00:03:54):
And so I ended up helping them with their computer systems. And then from there, I ended up developing a business doing fairly complex data analysis for fish farming.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
That sounds very believable, the sound of authenticity. And somewhere in there though, there is evolutionary step change, where you first encountered data software. Do you have any idea where that was? Where did you first get that itch?
Donald Farmer (00:04:18):
Oh, so that's actually been there all along. We had computers in the house very, very early. So when I was eight or nine, which would be in the '70s, we had a computer in our house because my father was an electronics designer for British Telecom, which was the national telecom company. He designed the first digital exchanges for example.
Rob Collie (00:04:37):
Oh my gosh.
Donald Farmer (00:04:38):
So he was really into this, and we had computers in the house pretty early and really clunky hex programming that we had to learn in order to do the basic thing. The real breakthrough for me was when I was probably about 11 or 12 and we got our first computer that I could actually play with. And I remember the first experience that I had there, which was a program, the Sieve of Eratosthenes, calculates all the prime numbers. And I calculated all the prime numbers up to a million, and it just seemed incredible. Then a couple of extra lines of code up to 10 million, up to 100 million. It was just so exciting.
Donald Farmer (00:05:16):
And it was tremendously exciting for me. And I had this feeling, this experience of power that was really remarkable. To come back to my father, he also had a big old car because as an engineer, he fiddled with everything. We this huge, big old car. And one day, he had to change a tire or something, so he let me use a hydraulic jack to pump up the car, to lift the car. And there I was, this little kid like nine or 10 with a hydraulic jack. And with one hand, I was lifting this like two-ton old British limousine. An amazing feeling. I just felt so powerful, I felt like Superman.
Donald Farmer (00:05:46):
I had exactly the same feeling. First time I was able to program a computer. I just have this power, it was like an intellectual power. And then I immediately started doing things like I started writing applications to handle my book collection and my collection of wild flowers and things like that, so all the things I wanted to do. And of course, I was data programming, I didn't know it. And then I had this tremendous breakthrough, which was, I was using arrays, I didn't know about databases, so I was using arrays and matrices in order to store data in a grid format.
Donald Farmer (00:06:19):
And then I realized that a cell of the array could contain the address of our cell in another array. It could contain a variable. Well, you guys know this, but at the age of 12 or 13, that's an incredible insight to have. I don't mean that I was genius, I don't mean that, it's a very powerful insight to have, it changes your life. At that point, when I discovered that you could navigate, you could manage, you could make all these incredible connections. That's when data really took off for me. And so all through my career, what I've always been looking for is that feeling again of, "Wow, that's incredible."
Rob Collie (00:06:58):
That leverage. I'm laughing here. So Luke and I, Luke, the producer here, we were computer partners in computer class in middle school. So around that same age 12, we were experiencing the tremendous feeling of power of Apple II low resolution graphics, simulating someone sneezing and a droplet of slim flying across the screen. That didn't have the same feeling of power. Here you are at the same age, but an earlier point in the world calculating primes, cataloging your book and wildflower collection. We were little boys at a computer, there was nothing going on that was remotely serious.
Rob Collie (00:07:41):
I didn't know about pointers or arrays of pointers, hell, I'm not sure I've ever programmed an array of pointers, but I didn't even know that their existence until college. So yeah, you're right, it was there for you from the very beginning. Holy cow.
Donald Farmer (00:07:55):
Yeah. That was just tremendously exciting. Now, that actually has an important pattern then in my so-called career, because I never thought of computer science as something that I wanted to study. I never have formally studied computer science. To me, it was always a means to an end, it was always something else. So I just felt it was just this tremendous power that I had and that I enjoyed, but I wanted to use it for something. So I've never really been very interested in computers in themselves or computer science in itself.
Donald Farmer (00:08:27):
Right now, for example, I can tell you that I'm running a Mac. I have no idea what processor's in it, I have no idea how big the hard disk is or the memory or look at that. None of that matters to me compared to, what can I do with it? Sometimes you have to know things in order to do things better, but I'm actually really not interested in the science of computation and computer science in its own right.
Rob Collie (00:08:50):
I think that's the way to be. That was one of my fields of study in college and it didn't change my life really. I still wasn't going out of my way to write arrays of pointers or anything like that, there was just nothing to do with it. I think you and I both agree 100% on the role of technology, you should not strive to be a technologist, you should strive to be someone who solves problems and knows when and how to deploy technology. Yeah, the tech is never the star of any story.
Donald Farmer (00:09:21):
It is for some people. Some people get really into it. We probably couldn't do our jobs unless there were those people who are really into it doing their jobs.
Rob Collie (00:09:29):
That's true.
Donald Farmer (00:09:30):
So I think there's room for everyone. Think of it in terms of building a team, the team has to include people who, in a sense, don't care about the technology but care about the problem. And if you have people who don't care about the problem and care about the technology, well, you need to find a role for them, but you have to be pretty careful in managing that role. Otherwise, you end up with the engineering led software, the danger of boys with toys, the technology becomes its own excitement.
Rob Collie (00:09:57):
That's the thing that I've been steering away from now for more than a decade, because I did experience exactly that, especially in my early days at Microsoft. There were often entire teams organized around tech for tech's sake. And so it requires an enthusiasm for technology in many, many instances to get something done. And in fact, I have enthusiasm for certain technologies, the ones that I've found that are really effective. It's more just like a strategic mindset to adopt, is that technology is a means to an end rather than an end in its own, which should be obvious, but in some cases isn't.
Donald Farmer (00:10:32):
Well, everyone, to be effective, needs a sense of purpose. And there are of course different purposes. My purpose is always, what problems can I solve? But more interestingly for me, I think, how can I do things differently? I guess I'm always a contrarian. I'm not that much interested in doing things better, so much as I'm interested in doing things differently in order to get a better result. Incremental improvements aren't super interesting to me. I'm a radical, I want to burn the house down and build it again. I'm not a version two guy of anything.
Rob Collie (00:11:00):
I'm a fan of that mindset. I don't know if you know that about me, that burn the house down is... Or at least the houses that deserved burning, but not every house. That's a perfectly good house over there.
Donald Farmer (00:11:12):
And make sure you're not in it when you do it.
Rob Collie (00:11:14):
Yeah, that's right. So do you know Tom. Have the two of you crossed paths before?
Donald Farmer (00:11:20):
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And it's been a while of course, because nobody's seeing anybody on the circuit nowadays, so it's been a while since we caught up. But absolutely, I know Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:11:29):
In the time waiting for you to join today, Donald and I got caught up, and I shared my earliest memories. He was at a past summit sitting on the floor, teaching people how to use, I think he said it was the data analysis add-in for Excel. Was that it, or?
Donald Farmer (00:11:44):
Yeah, the data mining data mining add-in.
Thomas LaRock (00:11:46):
Data mining data mining add-in for Excel, which was revolutionary at the time. Of course you know, Rob, how exciting this was. But he had about 20 people gathered around while he sat on the floor doing an impromptu demo to make sure people understood. But the other memory I have is when he dressed in costume to get on stage at the past summit as part of the keynote, and he was tweeting to us from backstage. So this had to be 2008-
Donald Farmer (00:12:15):
Sounds about right.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:16):
And I'm like, "I can't believe I'm tweeting to the person behind the stage at the keynote right now." And then I remember I went and I chatted with you and Buck Woody for you in the speaker room. Anyway, I'm starstruck. I was like, "Oh my God, It's Donald Farmer. I get to talk with Donald Farmer." And he never once mentioned you, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:12:34):
I know, I know. I used to do that to Donald at conferences. If I'd pass him in the hallway, I would immediately put on my fanboy voice, "Oh my God, it's Donald Farmer. It's Donald Farmer," running towards him.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:46):
Here, fans of the podcast won't be able to see this, but there's this book, and I showed Don earlier, it's called Competing on Analytics, and it's from 2007. And I asked Don for some advice, like, "Hey, what should I do to get started in this weird world of data analytics?" Because I was a guy that was only focused on that little database engine. And he said, "Yeah, go buy that book, Competing on Analytics, start there." And so I did immediately, and my eyes were just... Of course I'm not computer science guy, I'm a math degree, I have a master's in mathematics, actually.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:20):
So when I saw that data and math was basically being combined, it really hit home for me. I'm like, "Oh, I get it now." When I was getting my degree, the only thing you thought you might do with math was become an actuary, which is also data and math. But when I started seeing it getting applied in what this book was talking about and I saw it happening in sports industries as well and taking off, that's when I got excited. And actually, that's right about when Rob came into my life.
Donald Farmer (00:13:49):
Well, that book Competing on Analytics by Thomas Davenport, one of the things I really liked about that at the time, and I still like about it now is it's not a technical book, but it's not only a business book either. It takes you one step beyond saying, "Here are the business environment that you're working in, here are the business issues that you might come across, and here are ways to address that analytically. And here's why it's better to address it analytically." I think Thomas Davenport is a great thinker in terms of business, but I like the way he lays out the path to success, which is so different.
Donald Farmer (00:14:21):
You've got a degree in mathematics, and yeah, at one time, your only option, if you like, would be to an actuary. Actuaries were data scientists, actuaries still are data scientists. They were data scientists before the term. And they were always data scientists that were operational engineers who specialized in optimizations who were doing data science. There's still a lot we can learn from them, especially from... I look at people developing all sorts of fancy neural net algorithms, and I sometimes sit back, I say, "You could solve that problem quicker, more easily and more reliably with simulated annealing or some such analysis from the 1970s or '80s." And sometimes, again, it's this tendency to get caught up in technology for its own sake.
Rob Collie (00:15:05):
Yeah, the hot new hammer.
Donald Farmer (00:15:06):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:15:07):
Let's go back to the data mining add-in.
Donald Farmer (00:15:08):
Yeah, gosh.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:10):
Before we get too far off track, I do want to know your origin story, the two of you. So I'm hoping, does the data mining path get us there?
Rob Collie (00:15:18):
I think that almost gets us there. It gets us passing in the night, which is a weird thing.
Donald Farmer (00:15:23):
Yeah, it does. And actually, I think it does get as there more directly than even you might know, Rob. So data mining add-in, there was a great data mining team at Microsoft. And they were really, I would say along with Oracle, they were the first people to really embed predictive analytics inside the database as a platform. And so there was a team led by ZhaoHui Tang and Jamie MacLennan, they took algorithms that had come out of Microsoft Research and brought them directly into the OLAP engine, in fact, into the OLAP framework. And so people were able to do real predictive analytics and data mining within the database.
Donald Farmer (00:15:56):
That was great, but it didn't really help bring that into the hands of business users because you had to be deep into the language and the architecture of the OLAP engine in order to use them. So they had this great idea of, "Well, why don't we surface this through an Excel add-in and make it simple to use and find a way of showing the results or various ways of visualizing the results from predictive analytics that would make it easy to understand, or at least simple to understand?" And so that was the data mining add-in. There was a couple of things about that. You spend all this time building this beautiful interface, and it really was very effective as one-click, two-click data mining add-in that to my mind could actually have changed the world of business analysis if we'd had the support to do it.
Donald Farmer (00:16:40):
And then it turns out that, what are we allowed to call this? We have to call it the Microsoft SQL Server 2008 Data Mining Add-ins For Microsoft Office System 2007, or something. You ended up with this name, which was literally 200 characters long because that's the branding guidelines. I do can call it something like quick side or something like that, which would have been much more impact. Very often, I was trying to give presentations where I literally couldn't fit the name of the product into the 200 characters of the presentation title. So it was frustrating, but it was a great product. A lot of fun.
Donald Farmer (00:17:17):
And when I presented it, your story, Thomas, it's actually really true. People would come out up to the conference, want to see so much more, I'd have to sit down in the corridor and demonstrate it again and show people how to use it. What's relevant for that to my meeting with Rob ultimately is the Excel part because that really opened the eyes of a lot of people to what you could do in Excel in terms of interface, in terms of usability, in terms of simplicity and the fact that rather than making a data mining product which brought users to data mining, we did it the other way around, we built a data mining product that took data mining to the user and met the user where they lived and worked, which is in Excel.
Donald Farmer (00:17:59):
And that really started to transform our thinking within the SQL Server team about, how do we enable business analytics? Rather than building a special tool, rather than requiring users to discover rise and come to us, why don't we go to them and enable business analytics where they already live and work, and that's the Excel environment? And at that point, Rob can pick up that side of the story because this was where you got super-involved.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
That's right. The part where I had mentioned that I think we passed in the night was that I had a couple of meetings when I still worked on Excel with, I believe Bogdan and Jamie, a series of meetings, actually. I don't remember you being in them.
Donald Farmer (00:18:43):
I would not have been in those, no. At that time, I was probably still deep inside integration services.
Rob Collie (00:18:48):
That's right. And so I got to participate in the design of that add-in. Looking back, those meetings were as much about getting office buy-in as they were about getting office input, which is obviously very clever and basically just me. I was a lead program manager at the time and my team was all very, very busy with their individual projects. I had also been reaching this conclusion that I was like, as a lead, at that time, I had no direct responsibilities, I wasn't doing any of this stuff that I used to enjoy, which was actually designing software. So when this thing came along, Jamie and Bogdan showed up and said, "Hey, we'd like some help designing this add-in." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, Okay. I'll take that. That'll be my thing to do for a couple of months and stay interested."
Rob Collie (00:19:33):
We called one of the buttons, Key Factors. And I remember that was my idea. That's something that came to me, was to call it Key Factors. And I was very proud of it at the time. And now later on, we see it in Power BI called Key Influencers. I'm like, "Oh, damn it, that's so much better. That's such a better name." We were close to working together there, but shortly thereafter is when I disappeared over into the services side of the house, the Bing and MSN. And it was like about a year later year and a half later that project Gemini, Power Pivot, the Excel plan came knocking. And that's when we really started to get to know each other. I ended up going over there and reporting to Donald on Project Gemini.
Donald Farmer (00:20:15):
Right. I got involved in Gemini at a really interesting time because it had been incubated by Thierry D'hers, who led the client side of the incubation, the great work there. And he'd had just a great experience of building business applications within analysis services, within the Office team earlier in his career at Hyperion. So he'd done some really interesting work. He had a great understanding of business analysis at a depth that was really remarkable. He understood all the calculations that people would have to do. And there were other parts of the incubation that were also very important. We had Cristian Petculescu developing the Vertipaq Engine, which has become a really important part of the BI infrastructure, Dave Wickert, doing all that crazy work that had to happen to integrate the management and administration side of Gemini into SharePoint, which was a thankless task.
Rob Collie (00:21:04):
Indeed, indeed.
Donald Farmer (00:21:05):
What a nightmare that was. And then there was the client side, which was just a lot of fun. And we had DAX, we should talk about DAX at some point as well, of course, close to your heart. But I took over the Gemini team at that point and I just really, really enjoy that process. I guess Gemini gave me part of that sense that I'd had before as a kid. Look at the power of God, I don't just do a million rows in Excel, I can do tens, hundreds of millions of rows in Excel. And that was tremendously exciting. If you remember the demo, we used to have the Moovly at demo, which was the movie database, which was 50 million, I think it was. And that was really intense. That was quite exciting.
Rob Collie (00:21:44):
To back up, Gemini was the code name for what became Power Pivot part. We'll make that 100% clear to the listeners. And yeah, I still tell people to this day, the Vertipaq Engine and DAX and all of that, is the only time in my entire career at Microsoft that I felt like I was witnessing science fiction. It was just insane what that engine could do. We almost didn't believe it. And I agree with you, it's like that moment of cosmic leverage and that really hasn't worn off.
Donald Farmer (00:22:16):
Sure. I know the feeling.
Rob Collie (00:22:18):
Every time I go and load several gigabytes of text dump into a Power BI file and I look at the resulting file and it's like 50 megabytes and it only eats about 100 megabytes of Ram, I'm just jiggling. I'm just like, "This is crazy."
Donald Farmer (00:22:34):
This actually caused me a real problem, a huge problem once. I was in Israel, visiting Microsoft in Israel and doing some presentations about Power Pivot, that was our Gemini as it was still in that stage. And I was demonstrating to the Microsoft Israel team, but also to a lot of our customers. And as you know, a lot of the Gemini team were Israeli originally. They came from an acquisition. So I'm in Israel, I'm doing this presentation and I have to come home and I get to the airport and the flight was leaving at about two or three o'clock in the morning. And I don't know if you've ever been to Israel. Have you ever flown there?
Rob Collie (00:23:04):
Yeah. I have, one time.
Donald Farmer (00:23:05):
So you've been through the airport?
Rob Collie (00:23:06):
Yes.
Donald Farmer (00:23:06):
They take security somewhat seriously.
Rob Collie (00:23:09):
Yes, they do.
Donald Farmer (00:23:10):
Really seriously, including the fact that if you've got a laptop, they will ask you to boot it up to make sure it's actually working, that its interior is working. They'll even ask you to click in a couple of files and open them to prove that it's working. Of course, what file does the security officer ask me to open? The Moovly Excel file sitting on my desktop, which is 50 million rows of data. It takes about five minutes to load at that point because we were still in beta. And of course, I then have to explain, but it's just an Excel file. Yes, but it's got 50 million rows of data. No, it can't possibly have 50 million rows. Meanwhile, my flight is leaving and I'm waiting for this damn [inaudible 00:23:50] to boot up.
Rob Collie (00:23:51):
Yeah. That's the kind of security that you encounter in that airport.
Donald Farmer (00:23:55):
I think they knew they were talking about.
Rob Collie (00:24:00):
You are interacting at that moment with the best and brightest.
Donald Farmer (00:24:05):
Yes. Not some poor soul and minimum wage.
Rob Collie (00:24:08):
It feels like our version of the Ivy League about to be road scholar type people are interviewing you at that airport?
Donald Farmer (00:24:17):
Right. Psychologically profiling you as well.
Rob Collie (00:24:21):
And they're like, "Bullshit, Excel only holds a million rows. And you know what, that's only in the most recent versions, it was 64K just a moment ago." They're going to know their shit.
Donald Farmer (00:24:32):
Yeah, exactly. And the security is really serious unlike a lot of countries. I remember going and getting on a plane once in Sea–Tac or going through security at Sea–Tac, the guy in front of me had a gun in his bag, and it set off the alarms and everybody is, "Gun, gun, gun." And there was security running around. And then he gave it back to him and told him to check it. He just tried to put a gun on the plane in his hand and you are telling him to check. This is not A1 security people.
Rob Collie (00:24:59):
No, no. It is really jarring flying back from there and landing in the United States. It's literally like your very next interaction with humanity is JFK. And you're just like, "Oh, things are just so dumb here in comparison."
Donald Farmer (00:25:15):
Well, yeah. And it's that tone of seriousness and the fact that they take it seriously. And to be fair also, many things the application of technology and the fact that they hire great people, it's actually a good example of how something that's very routine in our lives can actually become a specialty if you focus on it intensely enough, plus we have drifted.
Rob Collie (00:25:36):
Oh, that's the whole point. That's the whole point is to drift. We were talking about almost an organizational epiphany on the SQL side that we can bring the tools to the users. A lot of things in SQL up until that point didn't even have an interface with their own at all. They were just essentially an API like analysis services on its own. All it was was it's API.
Donald Farmer (00:26:01):
Right. If you want it to do anything with it. There was this very interesting third-party browser, which had been built specially for browsing analysis services. The fact that at first it was the only engine you could connect to as your analysis services engine was built by some guy out of Stanford and he called it Tableau or something. I don't know whatever happened to that.
Rob Collie (00:26:19):
Oh yeah, yeah. So it was just a little throwaway tool.
Donald Farmer (00:26:23):
Oh my God.
Rob Collie (00:26:26):
I thought we were setting up for a ProClarity joke or something, like going acquire the number one front end for your flagship data platform and then kill it.
Donald Farmer (00:26:36):
Well, yeah. This is really interesting. We did kill ProClarity and we killed a number of products that we're actually very promising by making one huge mistake, which was, we assumed that standardization of the interface was critical to simplicity and ease of use. So we had a ton of interesting applications that ended up getting thrown into this SharePoint environment. So we had data quality services, which ended up in SharePoint, hosted by the Office team and a SharePoint environment. We had master data services, which ended up plugged into the same SharePoint environment.
Donald Farmer (00:27:16):
SharePoint is very limited in its user experience. So all sorts of radio buttons and check boxes and endless forms that you had to fill out in those applications to do anything. And one of the things that we totally missed was the importance, and this is something I just talk about all the time though, so I'm going to rant, is the importance of a tool of choice. That is, it's one thing to deliver capabilities to someone, but it's another thing to have them have a tool of choice. I want to use this, not just I want to solve this business problem and here's a platform which does it, but this is something I want to use.
Donald Farmer (00:27:53):
Tableau did an amazing job, Christian at Tableau did an amazing job of building a tool of choice that people wanted to use. They identified themselves as Tableau users and they became what they would call them, Zen Masters or whatever. But to them, that was then part of their definition of their career, I'm a Tableau expert, I'm Tableau person. And that's a tool of choice. And Microsoft for many years was in the wilderness of pushing out standardization, "We already own your platform, so we're going to integrate everything into that platform." But Gemini was this big breakthrough, it was one thing that really happened that people could then adopt that and say, "This is our tool of choice to use." And that was a breakthrough for Microsoft, I think.
Rob Collie (00:28:35):
That tool of choice, something that you actually love. And I've heard the story, I have no idea if it's true, but it seems like it's believable that Steve Jobs put the switch on the back of the Apple II so that in order to turn it on, kids with short arms had to lean forward and essentially hug the Apple II turn it on and off. It doesn't even really matter whether that's true or not, that story still illustrates the point. And we did, we hugged our Apple IIs before we programmed them to have phlegm flying across the screen.
Donald Farmer (00:29:10):
Well, one of the things that Apple have always done, which is really great is they've never oversimplified everything. They have had a design philosophy, which is based around simplicity, but they've never oversimplified. In fact, if anything, they require you to put some effort in. There's a point at which... I love this idea of the iPod. We had iPods, we had phones, I had an iPod, I later had a Zune, which I enjoyed actually, but I had an iPod, I had a phone, I could travel anywhere in the world and make phone calls. I had music with me wherever I went. I had two chargers, I had two cables, I had headphones. It was a mess in some ways, but I had these devices.
Donald Farmer (00:29:47):
And then what was super interesting about what Apple did was they used to even meet this joke when they launched the iPhone. They made a joke in the first keynote that what they were actually going to do is just create an iPod that could make phone calls and they had a dial on the front of it. They had this old telephone dial on the front of an iPod, which they actually patented that as well. I think perhaps deliberately leading people astray. And they made a joke of that, but what the actually launched was the iPhone, which didn't just solve the problem of I've got two devices, it was beautiful and it was expensive, and it didn't work very well as a phone, did other great things.
Donald Farmer (00:30:21):
And had all sorts of things in the user experience, which were completely unnecessary, the little map pointer, which animated and wobbled as it landed, there was all sorts of stuff there. And the touch keyboard, the people were very skeptical of that, how could you possibly type into thing I'm using this touch keyboard on the class? They not only did he make all that work, but that's actually a lot more effort than they had to do to solve the problem of having too many devices. The actually took you on a journey, into a new place that is a different environment altogether and requires a commitment, financial and a commitment of usage from you as a user.
Donald Farmer (00:30:59):
So rather than dumbing it down and let's just solve the problem, they actually created a new world that they would take you on this journey into the new world. That seems to me super interesting. When I look at what we did with Power Pivot ultimately, and then with Power BI, we actually took people into a new world. We expected to learn new things. It was actually quite demanding in some ways although it was a simple product, it was still demanding, you had to learn DAX, you had to learn some new concepts. But that in itself gave you a commitment, you now had a sense of a practice that you had adopted in order to use that product.
Donald Farmer (00:31:35):
That's much more satisfying ultimately to a user than just simply solving a problem. If all we done was extend Excel to be able to handle 500 million rows, that wouldn't have been interesting, not nearly as much as taking people into a new world.
Rob Collie (00:31:51):
There's a parallel there to what fraternities do to their recruits. You beat them as a group and just abuse them for some number of times and then they value being a member of the fraternity even more than what they would otherwise because that's what forges the bond.
Donald Farmer (00:32:08):
That explains so much about your specifications, but I can go with this.
Rob Collie (00:32:12):
Hey, I was never in a fraternity, but I hear that's how it works.
Donald Farmer (00:32:16):
People have told you.
Rob Collie (00:32:18):
Yeah. My friends would come back and go, "Oh man, they made us drink a gallon of milk and then do setups and so we threw up." I'm like, "Oh, that sounds great."
Donald Farmer (00:32:28):
So you weren't just taking people into this new world as you put it because that almost to me implied that you had this group of users that you were then dragging... When Gemini became a Power Pivot, it opened up the door for people like me. So you didn't just take people, you cast even the wider net and you dragged people along into a much better future. I cannot imagine a world where you didn't have Power Pivot or PivotTables. All the time, I'm talking to my wife and she's working with real estate data and I'll look out and go, "Oh, we'll just make a PivotTable." And she's working saying Google Sheets or something that, but it's everywhere.
Donald Farmer (00:33:07):
I'm doing Python, they're like, "Oh, so we'll just make a PivotTable of that data frame." They're everywhere. And I can remember a time when they didn't exist in my life and now I can't imagine going back to that. PivotTables are a great example of a data structure, an interface, a user interface that we're very, very familiar with, but we're so familiar with it that we overlook the power of them. When they first came out and VisiCalc or Lotus 1, 2, 3, that was just a tremendous breakthrough, the ability to do that work. And if you remember at the beginning of the Gemini process, the Power Pivot process, we actually defined our potential user as somebody who understood PivotTables and used VLOOKUP or HLOOKUP.
Donald Farmer (00:33:49):
And if you did those two things, then you were potentially a Gemini user. I thought that was fun. But one of the odd things about our users, I don't know if you remember that our business intelligence users hated Gemini at first. You brought in the MVPs, we brought in people Chris Webb, who now works at Microsoft. I remember Chris saying, "This is terrible. This is a terrible product because you're killing our careers. Our whole career is based on consulting with people who need our help in order to do these complex scenarios. And now you've made it so simple that they won't need us anymore. And you're undercutting your partner base by making everything so simple."
Donald Farmer (00:34:26):
And then either luckily or unluckily, depending on how you look at it about a year later, Chris came back and said, "Actually, it's not so simple after all, we're going to be okay." But it reminds me of that because Microsoft in some ways, I think a general story about Microsoft back at that time, we had great understanding of user experience in certain areas, but we had a relatively poor understanding of how user experience and the daily life of our users came together. And I think ProClarity is a great example of that, just bringing on board the capabilities wasn't enough to sustain the product because ultimately the product died because we'd forgotten that is not just about what you can do, it's about how you do it and the daily life of the user.
Donald Farmer (00:35:12):
ProClarity users were rightly furious with us for missing that aspect of it. That we'd actually implemented all the features and lost all the soul of the product. Is that fair? Am I being super hash?
Rob Collie (00:35:25):
I think that's completely fair. And I'm not even sure that we implemented all the features. The first move after an acquisition like that used to be, "This was the playbook," was announced that is not going to ship again, there's no new versions of it coming out. So you burned your ships in the harbor to commit the team to integration, because you know that if you leave that door open, you're just going to keep shipping that product separately forever and it'll never get integrated. So some executive will draw a line in the sand and say, "No, it's not going to ship anymore."
Rob Collie (00:35:58):
Well, then all the regular software engineering practices kick in and we say, "Okay, so how do we fit this into our existing products? And the answer of course is, "Not very well." And it's integration, especially if you go back to that point in time at Microsoft, even if everyone's head was on completely straight and everyone was onsite in a way that was just not the case back then, and even much, much less so then than now. I don't think we could have pulled it off. How would you bring something like that experience you're talking about of ProClarity, the life of a ProClarity user, how would you keep that alive inside something Excel while at the same time, not turning Excel into the tourist trap of billboards that are all garishly colored.
Rob Collie (00:36:51):
Bill and I talked about it is, why are these amazing things in Excel still hidden? And it's because you can't turn Excel into the tourist trap.
Donald Farmer (00:37:00):
By Bill you mean Bill Baker or Bill Gates?
Rob Collie (00:37:04):
No. Bill Jelen.
Donald Farmer (00:37:05):
Oh, Bill Jelen. Okay. Right. Another great-
Rob Collie (00:37:07):
MrExcel. He's slot somewhere in that Pantheon?
Donald Farmer (00:37:10):
That's a great example.
Rob Collie (00:37:12):
And so that was always one of the tensions for us on the Excel team was that we'd be working on something new and exciting. And of course, I would want it to be pulsating in the interfacing, click me, click me. And as a steward of the overall product, you can't do that because next thing you know, the entire screen is posting.
Donald Farmer (00:37:30):
Well, that's why I was asking about Bill Baker or Bill Gates because Bill Baker who ran the SQL BI team used to say that what we have to avoid is the Fisher-Price user interface, the big yellow button.
Rob Collie (00:37:40):
I actually like Fisher-Price interface.
Donald Farmer (00:37:43):
That also explains a lot about your specifications back in the day.
Rob Collie (00:37:49):
Hey, it was a simpler time.
Donald Farmer (00:37:51):
No, I think it's a really important point. When we were not developing Power Pivot, but actually marketing Power Pivot, one of the big breakthroughs that we had there, which ultimately led to me coming on in costume at the past conference, but one of the breakthroughs we had, there was Daniel Yu who currently runs marketing for Azure sign ups at Microsoft. Daniel Yu and I were sitting down, how do we explain the value proposition of this to a business user who doesn't know anything about it? It's one thing talking to an analysis services user, is one thing talking to Excel MVPs who get this, but what about the business user? What sells it to them?
Donald Farmer (00:38:27):
And in order to find a message, we actually built a little story, which was the story of a day in the life of the user, literally from what do they do when he get up? What do they do on the way to the office? What they do when you come into the office. And then what does that story look with, or without Power Pivot? And that really gave us a breakthrough because we started to realize that Power Pivot fitted into their daily life, into their working life in a way that was actually distinctly different from Excel, but still complimentary to it, that this wasn't just something that rolled into the Excel world. And equally, it wasn't something that took the place of BI.
Donald Farmer (00:39:05):
They still sat down first thing in the morning when they're in their office and looked at their reports, for example, and we're not going to take the place of your reports and your dashboards, but we are going to take the place of what do you do once you find something in the report that you need to take action on, or once you notice something in the dashboard and now you're in Power Pivot world. And that was a real breakthrough for us, and it came from this idea of modeling the daily life of a user.
Rob Collie (00:39:28):
You're speaking of the silent film that you made, right?
Donald Farmer (00:39:30):
Oh, you're right, we made these little films. They were cool.
Rob Collie (00:39:33):
What was that called?
Donald Farmer (00:39:34):
Oh, I can't remember. We made a few of them.
Rob Collie (00:39:37):
It's like The trouble With Data or something that?
Donald Farmer (00:39:39):
That's right, The trouble With Data. And there was few, we made a little brought voice over it, so I'm sure they're still out there on YouTube.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:45):
I need to see these.
Rob Collie (00:39:46):
Yeah. This was eye opening for me. I think by the time this was out there, I think I had already left Redmond and it really got my attention. Seeing you do certain things, opened a door for me, which is that you can bring an artistic side to this data world. I'm not an artist. There's nothing I can do, I can't draw, I can't compose music. I can see things in my head. And you putting together this silent film, this spoof of a silent film that paralleled a day in the life of a business user of a business analyst, really lodged in my brain. So like a lot of the things that I've done since then like with stick figures and all this stuff, it were in large part inspired by having seen it executed so well.
Rob Collie (00:40:35):
And knowing that you didn't make those film segments, that you spliced together, I'm like, "Oh, I can do that. I can do that sort of composition." In a funny way, have you ever heard the C language, the C programming language was invented so that they could write the Unix operating system? Seems really bizarre. Like, wait a second, don't you need an operating system to run the language on? Anyway. So in a way, it's kind of like the Gemini experience, the Power Pivot experience. In a number of ways, I participated in building a set of tools that allowed me to become a different version of me. I kind of stepped through a door.
Rob Collie (00:41:12):
It's not just the technical capabilities of like DAX and data modeling and all that, which was a crucial, crucial, crucial component, but also the inspiration of seeing things like, I think it was called the trouble with data. I hadn't really thought about that until you just walked right past it. And I'm really deeply appreciative of you having done that. It's had a profound impact on me.
Donald Farmer (00:41:31):
Well, thank you. That's actually great to hear. And I think the work you've done since then, now that you mentioned it, I think you have brought that. You might not think of yourself as an artist, but you do bring a lot of creativity. The thing that we did at Microsoft that was always effective in some ways, although we didn't always execute well on it, was we had the resources to go out and do things that would be difficult to do in another business. And that included experimentation, taking some risks on that. And the leadership were more than capable of taking that on.
Donald Farmer (00:42:03):
But the other thing was, we also had big purpose. I remember perhaps when I interviewed at Microsoft being told that the Excel has 500 million users. What does an interface look like for 500 million users as opposed to the target market of a few thousand users for another desktop application? And thinking in that scale and thinking that big picture is really important. Rob, when you were at Microsoft, did you ever have to present to Gates in one of his business reviews and things?
Rob Collie (00:42:30):
One time.
Donald Farmer (00:42:31):
One time. Never again?
Rob Collie (00:42:33):
One time only. It was brutal.
Donald Farmer (00:42:37):
It was brutal. Gosh, I once had to do a one-on-one with Bill Gates and Ray Ozzie so I guess a one on two. Actually no, because Caroline Chao came with me, so it's two and two. Gosh, that was nerve wracking.
Rob Collie (00:42:48):
You're like, "Okay, look, you set the pick, I'll roll."
Donald Farmer (00:42:51):
Exactly. But the fascinating thing about Bill Gates, and it's still fascinating, still, when I see them talking and maybe in meetings where he's presenting or something, he still has the same quality. You know the rabbit and duck picture, you can see the rabbit, you can see the duck? Nobody can see both at the same time, you have to switch between the two, see a rabbit, now you see a duck depending on your perspective or your focus. Bill had this huge image, this huge efficient of what computing can do, what computing can do for individuals, what it can do for businesses, what it can do for the world and society in general.
Donald Farmer (00:43:29):
This enormous vision, which was greater than any of us could really take in. And that was his capability. But he could also focus tremendously on, why is that button on the left rather than the right? But he could also do both of these things at the same time. He could keep these focuses in mind at the same time. And so presenting, say something like Gemini to him, you never knew which Bill is going to show up, you never knew if the question that comes next is going to be about the impact of this on society and the world and the future of education, or if it's going to be, why is that not called key influencers rather than key factors? That's the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
Donald Farmer (00:44:09):
And you never knew which one you're going to get, which made talking with Bill very, very difficult and a real challenge. But it was fascinating. You learn so much from it. This ability to see the big picture and the detailed picture at the same time.
Rob Collie (00:44:23):
My experience of that was that the detailed picture had a 50-50 mix. 50% of the time when you dive into the details, you did learn something, and the other 50% of the time, you dive into the details and you'd feel like it's just because he couldn't help it. It was a derailer which could derailed the whole conversation. Our BI review with him, we lost... This was one I wasn't invited to, because of my poor performance at the first one we'd done. The second one devolved for like 15 minutes about how in one of the completely graphically designed, it was like done in Photoshop mockups, someone had used a pie chart to represent years.
Rob Collie (00:45:03):
And he was saying, "Listen, anyone that would do years on a pie chart," he was basically saying, "Shouldn't be working here."
Donald Farmer (00:45:11):
I've got to agree with him.
Rob Collie (00:45:16):
Yes, yes. But also looking back years later, I'm like, "Bill, this was a culture that you created. Hiring the computer scientists, the people who could solve these brain teasers or these academic riddles without ever having been polluted by the real world." Of course, as a 25-year-old, I wouldn't have known any better either. I would've drawn a pie chart and I would've just slapped years on. I wouldn't have ever thought twice about that. I can also understand the stupidity of it, but sympathize completely with the mindset that would do it.
Donald Farmer (00:45:48):
For sure. But that's actually not a derailment in a sense for Bill, that is part of that.
Rob Collie (00:45:53):
I agree.
Donald Farmer (00:45:54):
The detail and the big picture are a part of the same thing. It's fascinating. It was always a complex process, because I say you never really knew who was going to turn up. He'd have been perfectly capable of overlooking that and going on to some completely different topic, which could have been even greater in scope. It was always difficult to bring your story to him because he always brought his story, and that's a real challenge. But the guy was amazing. A tremendous privilege to have any time to work with him at all.
Rob Collie (00:46:22):
Yeah, I concur. It's completely not what I expected. I remember being struck by just like, I think this goes hand in hand with what you're saying, is he had a tremendous recall of basically everything.
Donald Farmer (00:46:34):
Yeah, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:46:37):
The data structures that he uses to record things about the world, he has this like lossless storage and the ability to index into any particular thing no matter how detailed.
Donald Farmer (00:46:50):
His brain is an array of pointers.
Rob Collie (00:46:52):
Yeah, that's right. It wouldn't surprise me if he remembered what shirt I was wearing that day that he chewed me out. That would be completely believable 20 years later.
Donald Farmer (00:47:02):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it's that connectivity, which a lot of people find difficult, the fact that everything is connected for him. The really creative people have that, and we don't all have it in the same degree. But he has that extraordinary connectivity. And the most interesting people I've worked with have it in all sorts of ways, they're able to make those connections. And then they're also able to make sense of new connections and to create connections. You'll remember, Rob, when I was at Microsoft and I was your manager, whenever I wanted to do a one-on-one or whenever you wanted to do a one-on-one, I always wanted to go for a walk. I always wanted to walk into campus walk, walk around the trails around Microsoft.
Donald Farmer (00:47:37):
And one of the reasons I always enjoyed doing it is not just because I like getting out, but because your conversation always go somewhere else when you're walking. And there's two dynamics to it. One is that you can't be face to face with someone when you're walking unless you walk into each other. You have a lot of contact, you have a lot of ability to read the other person, but you're not constantly focused on their micro expressions and how they're feeling, responding to you, whatever. But the other thing is that new things happen when you walk, a squirrel runs across in front of you, you see something, a beautiful flower, that you need to describe. You see some crazy building work going on in campus and you need to talk about that.
Donald Farmer (00:48:18):
And it takes you off subject, but it also provides you with a whole new set of connections that you wouldn't have if you just sat down in the office and speaking to each other. And I noticed this just so much now that we're all connecting online, that we just don't have that extra input. Our conversations, not this one, but our conversations... Because we haven't spoken for some time, this is a great conversation. But very often, my weekly conversations with people or my daily conversations with people just the same old, same old, because there's no new stimulus into that conversation except what has happened in the business since the last time we spoke, which gets old for pretty quickly.
Donald Farmer (00:48:55):
And I can't wait for the time that I have walking conversations with people. I've had one of the companies I advise, the lady I'm working with, she came up from Portland in order to have a socially distant walk with me. So we were walking along the trail here, eight feet apart, yelling at each other because she knew we had to have a conversation while we were walking rather than sitting on Zoom when we just had the same old conversation.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:19):
You mean yelling because you were eight feet apart and not because you were angry with each other?
Donald Farmer (00:49:23):
Right, because we were eight feet apart. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:24):
Yeah, okay. Because you basically just described every walk I have with my wife, but that's fine.
Rob Collie (00:49:30):
Don, did I ever tell you about when I had a walking treadmill desk?
Donald Farmer (00:49:34):
I know you had one. I could hear it in the background sometimes when you called me.
Rob Collie (00:49:38):
Yeah. The idea was to get skinny while working. That didn't happen. That low intensity exercise, I just would replace the calories. Whatever calories I burned walking those eight miles that day, I would just re-eat them and nothing changed. But I did find, even just walking on a treadmill desk by myself, that I focused in a different way, just the movement. So in addition to everything thing that you're saying, there's also, I'd like to add one more benefit, which is that just physically moving-
Donald Farmer (00:50:07):
It's that slight stimulation of the heartbeat and increase of oxygen.
Rob Collie (00:50:09):
Yeah. And for whatever reason, I don't struggle with this as much as I used to. But for a while there, like for a good decade of my life, I would sit down in a chair to work, my ADD or whatever would immediately have me opening a browser window and like navigating to the ESPN homepage without even knowing that I'd done it. It was like this craving of stimulation. And for whatever reason, when I was walking, I was scratching that itch. That part of me, that fidgety part of me had something to do, and that was walk. And then my brain could actually go a lot more focused work. I missed the treadmill desk because of that.
Rob Collie (00:50:47):
Eventually, the treadmill desk broke and I never bothered to replace it. It didn't have its magical redefining shape properties on my body that I was hoping for. But I do miss the focus, the clarity, the calm that it brought, even though I'm just walking in place, in a corner of a room. Maybe we should all get walking treadmills and conduct our meetings that way. It would be like a control. And then every now and then, we could just like release a squirrel in the room.
Donald Farmer (00:51:15):
Well, it's going to be fascinating over the next year, probably two years, as we start to look back on this very strange pandemic year that we've had to see what working practices were effective and which weren't, and then which ones we want to carry forward. I hear a lot of people saying they don't want to go back to the office, I hear other people saying that they're to go back to the office, and it's going to be fascinating just over the next year to see how that plays out.
Rob Collie (00:51:41):
Yeah. Once it's a choice, once it becomes optional, whether for the individual or the company as a policy, that's when you're going to find out for real. Right now, it's all what-if.
Donald Farmer (00:51:54):
Well, I'll tell you, I speak to quite a few startups and smaller companies. And the managers of those companies were often telling me that they really miss having people in the office. I speak to the employees and they're not actually missing it so much. But what people seem to miss, or they say that they miss when they talk about, I wish we could all be in the office together is, "Oh, we miss the creativity, we miss the interaction." And then I speak to other teams and they say, "Actually, we don't miss that all. We're doing fine without all that. Thanks very much."
Donald Farmer (00:52:21):
And I've done some analysis of it, not just making it up, I've done some analysis of it for one company in particular, and we did some surveys. And it turns out that, of course, the manager in some ways is right, that there is a missing creativity and connection, but it's their inability to scale the conversations. They'd walk around the corridors, they'd see somebody at the water bottle and they'd have a conversation about it, they'd stand having coffee. They're not organizing a meeting, they're not scheduling that, they're not sitting down with the person. In fact, it might be a very casual conversation in which they can give a pointer, "Well, maybe you should think about it this way. Maybe you should think about it that way."
Donald Farmer (00:52:58):
It's the very light touch interaction. And to them as managers, that's a critical part of their world, not sitting down having regularly scheduled conversations, but the light touch interaction that enables them to, as they see it, scale their interactivity and creativity across an entire team, which you can't do when you're all sitting on a Zoom meeting. On the other hand, it turns out that a lot of the developers, especially, are actually very happy not to have the manager giving their ad hoc direction, because they see that as randomizing and distracting.
Donald Farmer (00:53:30):
So from the manager's point of view, it's, "Oh, I'm so creative, I can have these light touch points and that's me adding value." And to the developers, that's, "Oh my God, that guy's going on about years on the pie chart again, just let me get on wiTh mu job."
Rob Collie (00:53:43):
You were there for no-meeting Wednesdays, right?
Donald Farmer (00:53:45):
Oh, no-meeting Wednesdays. Yeah, that was a great day for meetings.
Rob Collie (00:53:46):
Yeah, that was great. And you remember me calling it snarkly no-decision Wednesdays? Again, it's pros and cons. The developers loved it, but I always felt like as a program manager that I might as well not even come in that day.
Donald Farmer (00:54:01):
Yeah. Nothing to do.
Rob Collie (00:54:03):
We couldn't do anything without the people.
Donald Farmer (00:54:05):
Well, I don't know if you were there at a point where I gave some of my team pedometers. Did I give you a pedometer?
Rob Collie (00:54:11):
I never got a pedometer. I demand a pedometer.
Donald Farmer (00:54:12):
Well, I'll send you one. No, the idea was that program managers shouldn't be in their office. If you're in your office, you're not doing your job. You need to be out there talking to people.
Rob Collie (00:54:20):
Yeah. Just blows my mind that there are program managers that can work today remotely ignoring the pandemic. The program management position has now become somewhat remote friendly at Microsoft. I struggled with the phone, I really relied on being able to go and talk to someone face to face.
Donald Farmer (00:54:41):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:54:44):
It would've been crippling for me to have had that taken away. And so it made sense to me that when I moved away from Redmond, that I wasn't going to be doing that job anymore. I look back now and, again, I go, "Oh, there are a lot of people doing that job remotely now, I wonder how that works."
Donald Farmer (00:54:57):
I can't remember exactly what it was, what the issue was, but there was some issue in specification that had a dependency on another team. And at that time, we were in Building 35 and the other team, SQL Server core team was in 34, and they were not supporting us. And we got these emails from their program manager saying, "We're not going to do this feature. We're not going to do that feature." And we really wanted this feature in order to enable our own work. And the program manager who was reporting to me, she was kind of, "I don't know what to do about this. They keep blowing me off. I keep raising it in meetings, they don't do anything."
Donald Farmer (00:55:30):
And I said, "Well, let's just go talk to them." "Well, I don't have a meeting arranged, I'll set something up." "No, let's just go and camp out in their office." So we walked across to the building at, across to 34, down into the basement, sat in the office. The guy wasn't there, waited for him to come back. He came back in, and we said, "So here's what we need and here's what you're not giving us." And what I'd said to my program manager was, "It's going to be much more difficult for him face to face, sitting office to say, 'No, you'll not get it. We're not doing that.'" And I was so disappointed and I said, "Okay, well, we're going to push for this. We're going to keep pushing for it."
Donald Farmer (00:56:06):
We came back, went back to our offices. I clearly had lost all credibility as a manager and as a reader of human beings. And so the next morning in ship room, guess what? They'd implemented the feature overnight and done it. It was kind of funny. It was very revealing that, yeah, he still was able to say no, but actually, deep down, he understood our need at that point because we'd seen face to face. It was kind of funny.
Rob Collie (00:56:32):
I mentioned earlier that you were in many ways, the inspiration for some of the more creative efforts that came later in my career, but you also killed one.
Donald Farmer (00:56:41):
Oh no.
Rob Collie (00:56:42):
You killed Power Pivot Yoda.
Donald Farmer (00:56:43):
Power Pivot Yoda. Wait, what?
Rob Collie (00:56:48):
Yeah. Power Pivot Yoda was going to have a bright future.
Donald Farmer (00:56:51):
Is this like a Clippy thing?
Rob Collie (00:56:53):
No, Power Pivot Yoda was a Twitter account. That was a photo morph of Yoda and Donald. It was really kind of amazing. It was like one of those one in a million things. Donald was the face of Power Pivot, he was the community voice at Microsoft for all of this stuff at the time. It was a funny little joke. And then like three months later is when Donald left for Qlik and like, "Well, I can't use Donald's likeness as Power Pivot Yoda anymore." And so that was the end of one of my creations. But you miss 100% of the photo morphs you don't make.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:27):
I don't understand why we can't just do that now.
Donald Farmer (00:57:29):
Well, do you know the irony of that? As I went to Qlik and one of the first things their marketing did was build an entire comic strip around Qlik Yoda, which was me as Qlik Yoda, which I suspect they got from Power Pivot Yoda. So your idea in a sense did live on-
Rob Collie (00:57:44):
I didn't know that.
Donald Farmer (00:57:45):
... just in the service of a different business,
Rob Collie (00:57:47):
I feel redeemed hearing that later. I probably would've been upset at the time, but now is a really good time to hear that. That's great. The other things, Tom, that happened back in that day is... Don is such a good sport, and is so well known and so loved, that he is just a really easy figure to have some fun with. And so I posted this photo gallery of like, "Is it Donald or is it Tommy Chong?"
Donald Farmer (00:58:12):
I remember that. That was on camera.
Rob Collie (00:58:17):
And it was really close. And it was so funny that someone else, about six months later wrote an article about Donald and used a Tommy Chong picture on accident. So you know where he got it.
Donald Farmer (00:58:30):
That's great. Yeah, that was crazy.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:36):
I want to ask something slightly off topic, but I'm going to ask anyway. I remember this event, I don't know who, I suspect it's the SQL Server marketing team. I don't know what it is, but I believe Donald, you hosted a wine pairing with SQL Server in some secret room like the back cave or something inside of Microsoft. I remember I was invited to fly to Redmond.
Donald Farmer (00:59:01):
That's right.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:03):
Was it for SQL Server 2008 R2? It had to be. There's this launch event for what is essentially, let's call it a mid-major release of SQL, and it's a wine pairing with Donald Farmer. So what was that room first of all? What's that secret room on campus?
Donald Farmer (00:59:23):
That secret room was in the Executive Briefing Center and it was at the back of the Executive Briefing Center where they had a section, which was the Office of Tomorrow. And then at the back of that, it was a set that they'd created for the Home of Tomorrow. And that had actually gotten nowhere and they'd more or less abandoned it, but it was beautifully equipped as this lovely home with big screen televisions and couches and things out there. And that's where we held that event.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:51):
Again, I was invited, but I couldn't make it. So I'm assuming because I was still working for a previous employer. And I remember photos from the event on social media where Donald was basically introducing one of the features in 2008 R2 and he was pairing it with a class of wine. Do I have this correct, sir?
Donald Farmer (01:00:12):
You do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we had these funny things about IT and business working together like wine and cheese. It sounds really corny, but actually it is really corny. Of course, it was an excuse to have good wine and nice cheese, but it was also a way of getting people into a different minds set so they thought of this less as a set of features and more as the creation of a community of people who felt connected by a shared experience of this product. So that R2 launch, we had a group of people who felt very committed to each other and to us as a team. It was social engineering.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:49):
Yeah. I am sorry I missed that, because as it was happening, I'm like, "Oh, well, they'll do it again next release and maybe I'll get to go to that one." It's never happened since. So it's been like 12 years and there has yet to be a decent SQL Server launch event with wine pairing. And I'm going to have to mention it to the folks, MVP Summits coming up. I think I'm going to have to put the bug in some of these ear about this because absolutely this should be happening and I should be invited. That's how I feel.
Donald Farmer (01:01:17):
I'm a great believer in actually building community and in building that sense of shared purpose. And far too often, we actually present products to people as if they are passive receivers of our products rather than part of our shared creative community. When I joined Qlik, for example, Qlik at a really bad reputation for talking down to industry analysts and for regarding industry analysts as people who didn't really understand Qlik and didn't understand its unique value proposition. And therefore, we always mansplain to them about why we were so unique and different.
Donald Farmer (01:01:52):
One of the things we did was at a tech event in Vegas, where there was a lot of analysts and influencers present, we did a little event that I set up and the marketing team were great in supporting this Lara Shackelford at the marketing team, did a great job of pulling it together. We actually held it in the art gallery of the Bellagio rather than the typical Vegas event we have in some kind of meeting room, no. Scott Humphrey, my friend, who's an amazing PR guy, we got the art gallery, we held it in the art gallery. We had the nibbles, we had the wine, we had the pairing and we didn't talk about the product, we talked about us.
Donald Farmer (01:02:28):
We talked about why we were at Qlik, what we were doing, what we wanted to achieve. And we talked about that apart from a brief introduction, we talked about one-on-one with people rather than presenting to them. And what happened after that event was the analysts were our friends, literally. There were people at Qlik who had never sat down and had a meal or a drink with an analyst, and the whole experience then changed because they now became part, of course they weren't part of our community uniquely because they're industry analysts, they're objective, but we did have this sense that we're all part of a shared community of purpose, community of practice that I felt was really important.
Donald Farmer (01:03:05):
And I think you're right, by the way, Thomas, I think Microsoft have lost a lot of that. They're still doing this thing where Microsoft is explaining their products to you rather than we are part of a shared community of purpose. To be fair, I've been doing a little work with the Azure signups team, where of course it's been really difficult in the last year because we can't have those events. We plan to have a great event in Woodville, pull people together and it was going to happen last year, and of course it couldn't. I think we need to do a lot more of that, of building, not a community in a sense of a support group, a community, isn't a support group.
Donald Farmer (01:03:39):
You don't need to join a community, you're part of a community because that's who you are. I was brought up in a small village and you don't join a village, you're in a village because you were born there, because you live, because love them or hate them you're in a shared community with other people. You join a user group, you join a support group, you log onto a forum, but a community is much more organic than that, and you have to do a lot of work to build that. And I think be perfectly honest, I think Microsoft on the BI side, on the SQL Server side, on the Azure side to a certain extent lost that sense of shared community of purpose.
Rob Collie (01:04:12):
Yeah. I was thinking about Tom, as you were saying, I need to get on it and let them know they need to do a wine event. I was thinking about things Donald had said earlier like the Lampoon version of this as Microsoft will say, "Oh right, yeah, we should do that again." So they'll analyze the ingredients of that event. So there was wine, there was cheese, and so they'll have like three different, "Okay, we need two whites and two reds," and they'll just take the first absolute vanilla versions of all of those, and you'll get a handful of cheeses and think that that's the same thing. That's the whole point is that it's not.
Donald Farmer (01:04:45):
Well, nowadays you would just do it online and send everybody a coupon to go to Costco and that's the same thing.
Rob Collie (01:04:52):
Yeah. And I'd come home with hot sauce or something?
Thomas LaRock (01:04:55):
I think I have to agree with Donald, Microsoft may have lost a little bit of that community focused. What I will say is they continue to hire from their MVP community, which I think is somewhat brilliant because that's instant credibility with your best advocates, because now the people that you were sitting in that room with, now one of you, they're the principal program manager in charge of whatever. And it's really hard to look at somebody that was a friend and a colleague, you only assume good intentions. You know they're a good person, you know now they're doing good work over at Microsoft.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:35):
And so I find that there's a nice, solid connection between people building the product and their advocates, their community of MVPs. But I think you're right in the sense that outside of that community, that's still fairly closed, that there hasn't been that outreach beyond that circle. I don't know how that's happened, but I'm just reflecting back on the past, say 15 to 20 years of my involvement in this community. And I think they have gotten away from that. I'm not sure why or how.
Donald Farmer (01:06:09):
Well, I think it's partly to do with the success of the product. I'm going to make a suggestion here which they may well dislike, but I think it's true, is that earlier I was talking about the importance of tools of choice as opposed tools which are provisioned and Power BI is no longer a tool of choice. That's not entirely true because of course there are people who choose to use Power BI, but mostly it's just provision. It's provision by IT, it comes, I don't know, we're not allowed to use the word bundling in the Microsoft context, but it comes bundled with all fees or it becomes bundled with an Azure deal in some way.
Donald Farmer (01:06:41):
Very few individuals sit down and say, "I want to use Power BI." There are some who do and they're great at it, don't get me wrong. But unlike the world of the newer tools, and I think Tableau again is a great example of a company that has always done a good job of this. People choose to use Tableau, people choose to use Power BI in anything like the same way.
Rob Collie (01:07:01):
This jumps off the page to me in any interaction that I have with Microsoft these days is that they're doing such a good job selling the product at that top-down level. And I come at it from a completely different perspective, which is, the bottom-up adoption. I never had that phrase, tool of choice, but now I do. Excel is one of Microsoft's only tools of choice, it's an accidental tool of choice. The people who are good at Excel really love that product. They love it. There aren't many things like that at Microsoft. And Microsoft's inability so far to directly harness that audience that's already theirs and turn them into passionate Power BI developers still really bugs me, even as they've been really successful.
Rob Collie (01:07:48):
Financially, the product is doing incredibly well. And look at the Magic Quadrant, look at how well it's being received by those analysts we talked about earlier, in some sense like on every metric that matters, they're doing incredibly well. But it is hard for me to connect with them on that bottom-up level because it doesn't really seem to be hurting them.
Donald Farmer (01:08:07):
No, no, it doesn't. But you can see it in the product, and this is something that's super interesting to me. It does get reflected in the product because what I see in the product is there are features which have to my mind clearly been added almost as demo features. There are very lightweight, not particularly well thought through features. And in fact, very often I come back and talk to people a year later, question and answer is a great example, the natural language interface. How many people have actually been using that for two years and are still using it as a daily practice after two years?
Donald Farmer (01:08:38):
It's not a long term feature that. It's not a product, not a feature that you use for two years. As soon as you've learned how to use it, you abandon it and you go straight to the data again. And there's a lot of features like that in Power BI that continually pop up. And what I find when I look at those features and when I start working with them is inconsistency of attention. There are some aspects of Power BI where clearly people are giving it long term focused attention on the quality of this feature. And there's other features, which just feel like they've been hacked together and pushed in order to check a box, "Oh, ThoughtSpot are doing this so we'll do that and compete against them."
Donald Farmer (01:09:18):
"Oh, Tableau, I've got this, we've got that too." And that inconsistency of attention, I think, is actually long run potentially damaging. And the great success of Power BI is in some ways also its undoing because it's going to be just a default product, and at some point, because it's default, it'll no longer move the needle.
Rob Collie (01:09:40):
Yeah. And when it's unenthusiastically adopted, it's adopted incorrectly.
Donald Farmer (01:09:47):
A lot of that.
Rob Collie (01:09:48):
And it doesn't work well. It gets a negative reputation amongst that workgroup because they watched those demos and everything was so easy, but they also completely miss that it is a world-beater. When properly utilized it is a world-beater of a tool that should have been charged ridiculous amounts of money for. But you're right, now it's just part of the E whatever, skew, and it's issued to you. And my conversation with Microsoft, for good reason, you can understand this, it's not a bad thing, their overwhelming concern is what the CIO thinks of the tool. And the thing that makes it truly great, the thing that makes it the tool of choice, that people get excited about has nothing to do with what the CIO thinks.
Rob Collie (01:10:38):
You're right, it probably does long term, and it is, even medium term, short term. This is causing them trouble, adoption after the sale is now something that's a concern for them.
Donald Farmer (01:10:49):
For sure. There's a lot of shelfware out there. We used to call it shelfware, I don't know what you call it when it's on the cloud.
Rob Collie (01:10:55):
You might as well call it shelfware, it's a virtual shelf.
Donald Farmer (01:10:57):
And what's super interesting, of course, is the CIO may well be adopting Power BI for all the right reasons, but the tools of choice in the organization are other tools of choice and are starting to have that impact.
Rob Collie (01:11:08):
Yeah. What's TreeHive Strategy? What are you up to these days?
Donald Farmer (01:11:10):
Well, TreeHive Strategy is just a cute name for my consulting practice. And what I primarily do nowadays is strategic advising to vendors, to investors, and to enterprises about data and analytics strategy. We have a simple mantra that any software company is a data company, no matter what you do. If you're a data company, you need to be an analytics company, otherwise your data's just sitting there and not taking action requires analysis. And if you're an analytics company, you probably need to be an advanced analytics company sooner than you imagine.
Donald Farmer (01:11:42):
And therefore, what does that map look like to get from being a company that has data to being a company that actually is actively and innovatively using it? I have a lot of fun, I speak with a lot of investors, which is great, because I can go into their portfolio companies and then I start to deal with a whole lot of software vendors doing everything from manufacturing and retail, restaurant software, all sorts of things that I otherwise might not get to do. So I enjoy that, and I help vendors large and small from the largest vendors to small startups. And I work with enterprises ranging from manufacturing and robotics.
Donald Farmer (01:12:15):
So I have a lot of fun and I'm lucky in the sense that I still have to work, but I can choose what I do, and that's a great pleasure.
Rob Collie (01:12:22):
And just so people know, where is the name TreeHive come from?
Donald Farmer (01:12:26):
Well, TreeHive comes from our treehouse. There's a great TV program. Well, I think it stopped now, but by Pete Nelson, who's a treehouse builder based in Fall City, which is about 15 miles from us. And he built a treehouse for us and it was on the TV program and my wife built a sketch of it. It looked like a beehive in a tree, and Pete Nelson came along and said, "Well, that's impossible, let's try it," which is a great attitude, and built it. And it's beautiful. If you search for beehive treehouse, you'll always certainly find it. It's a beautiful place. And that's my thinking space.
Donald Farmer (01:12:57):
I retreat up there in the afternoon, no Wi-Fi up there, just the ability to sit there and be on my own and think. It's great to have a thinking space. So that's TreeHive Strategy.
Rob Collie (01:13:06):
Yeah. I remember there not being Wi-Fi in the TreeHive, but I was wondering all these years later, if you broke it down and hooked it up.
Donald Farmer (01:13:14):
No. Absolutely not, you've got to have somewhere that you can't get Wi-Fi.
Rob Collie (01:13:18):
Yeah. The pictures online and the videos, they actually surprisingly do it justice. I've been in the TreeHive, I've made that pilgrimage and it's awesome. It is just so cool.
Donald Farmer (01:13:28):
It is very beautiful, it's just a beautiful place and we're tremendously lucky to have it. And so it's become almost a defining feature of our work. My wife's an artist and a wonderful artist and I do my creative thing and it's become an inspiration for us in many ways.
Rob Collie (01:13:43):
Do you still have the Goblin Hut?
Donald Farmer (01:13:45):
We still have the Goblin Hut, which is a little octagonal building that we can go into and escape from as well. That's fun. We have an art studio. We have, what's called a House of Doors, which is a building made entirely out of doors, which is very interesting. And we have a little log cabin codding shade because our builder, our contractor is a log cabin builder and so he built us a porting shade, which is actually a log cabin. And we have all sorts of stuff and everything's painted as well. And that's the other thing, my wife's an artist so anything that's doesn't move gets painted.
Rob Collie (01:14:14):
Back in the day, there was even one of your wife's works, put a picture of it on the blog, the Three Seconds of Now. That painting that was in your office at Microsoft for so long. I've always been captivated by that work.
Donald Farmer (01:14:26):
Yeah. A big six-foot square painting.
Rob Collie (01:14:28):
It makes an impression and it is, it's just called Now, right?
Donald Farmer (01:14:31):
It's called Now, yeah. Well, there's this psychological thing that when we talk about the period of now, when you talk about something happening now, we're actually talking about a three-second period of time typically. In all the languages of the world, a line of poetry typically takes three seconds to say. So three seconds becomes this point at which a thought is focused. And if something takes more than three seconds, your mind drifts away from it. So I actually use it a lot. It's analytical, it's in our user experiences, in our thinking, we've got three seconds to hold someone's attention and have them move on to the next thing.
Rob Collie (01:15:04):
Yeah. If you click a filter and the results paint within three seconds, your mind doesn't really wander. On the other side of that three-second boundary, you've become asynchronous, you're no longer engaged. And that was the point of that blog post all those years ago was to try to get your slicer click, refresh in your Power Pivot reports, three seconds or less. It's like the biological quanta for time.
Donald Farmer (01:15:28):
It is, exactly. And of course, nowadays we expect the results to come back in millisecond, but the point being if you've actually overloaded the user with information so it takes some more than three seconds to take in all the data and information that you are showing them, you've still lost them. So even if your user interface is highly responsive, there's still three seconds of thinking and absorbing that you need to do.
Rob Collie (01:15:51):
All right. I'm looking forward to getting back out and hanging out in the Goblin Hut or in the TreeHive. The House of Doors was under construction last time I was there. That's how long ago?
Donald Farmer (01:16:00):
Wow. Guess what, that's all completed. Well, we need to get you out here, we need to get Thomas out here so we can do some wine tasting.
Rob Collie (01:16:05):
That's right. And we'll do it right.
Donald Farmer (01:16:07):
We'll do it right.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:08):
And we'll discuss Tableau, I guess.
Donald Farmer (01:16:15):
We can do that.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:15):
I'm sorry, no, we won't discuss Tableau, we'll discuss why we wanted to work for Tableau or something.
Rob Collie (01:16:21):
We'll discuss why the Microsoft SQL Server data mining tools for Office System 2000, whatever, pairs so well with this Kranti.
Donald Farmer (01:16:33):
That's exciting.
Rob Collie (01:16:35):
Well, Donald, thank you so much. I appreciate you coming down out of the TreeHive to where the Wi-Fi reaches to have a conversation with us.
Donald Farmer (01:16:42):
It's been a tremendous pleasure. Thank you Rob and Tom.
Announcer (01:16:45):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Adaptive Podcast. Let the experts at P3 Adaptive help your business. Just go to p3adaptive.com. Have a data day!
Kasper de Jonge's areas of expertise are many-Business Intelligence, Power BI, DAX, PowerPivot, General BI, Datawarehouse, SSIS, Reporting Services, Analysis Services, SQL Server, and you can include a mean basketball crossover to that list!
As Analytics Advisor and Principal Program Manager of Power BI, he knows a great deal about the problems that BI customers face daily. He shares some of these experiences and his expertise, and we have some good laughs along the way as well!
Check out Kasper's awesome blog Kasper on BI
References In This Episode:
Inglorious Bastards Italian Scene
Episode Timeline:
- 2:45 - A basketball challenge in New Orleans, Kasper's MS history with Power Pivot and Power BI, and the culture change at Microsoft
- 15:45 - The culture shock in moving to the United States
- 28:50 - The death of Power BI V1, and some James Phillips stories
- 40:00 - Office VS the Freedom to Innovate, Excel/Power BI Integration, and how software development has evolved
- 51:15 - The Amazing Power BI Cat Team, and the processes that they use to solve problems
- 1:05:50 - Some bad Microsoft product names, DAX VS MDX, and the many different people that are in IT
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. This week's guest is Kasper, Kasper DJ. I call him Kasper DJ here because I'm completely unable to pronounce his last name. But anyone that's been following this community for a while, if I just say Kasper, you know who I'm talking about, don't you?
Rob Collie (00:00:15):
Now, I met Kasper over the internet in 2010. This was shortly after I had relocated from Seattle to Cleveland for family reasons. And during 2010 is when I started to say something I thought was pretty funny at the time which is I have more friends in foreign countries than I do in the city I live. It was a very strange departure to suddenly be part of an international community on the outside of Microsoft all sort of coalescing around this thing called Power Pivot.
Rob Collie (00:00:43):
It was right around then in early 2010 about the same time that I was getting to know Kasper that I had seen something in Power Pivot that told me that the world was going to change. And most people that I talked to about that I told that Power Pivot which became Power BI was going to revolutionize the BI industry and change the way it was staffed, changed the way that the projects were, changed the whole business model.
Rob Collie (00:01:05):
The overwhelming majority of people that I said that to would immediately reject it and almost like attacked me. They told me I was wrong. Those days are over so long ago that it's hard to even really kind of remember what that was like. But Kasper was really striking back then. He had been part of the traditional BI ecosystem. And he was good at it. And he was seeing the same things in Power Pivot in those early days that I was.
Rob Collie (00:01:27):
And that was like instant international nerd bonding. He's gone on to do some amazing things. He ended up working on Power Pivot/Power BI at Microsoft for a greater number of years than I did when the dust settled. Today, he's still at Microsoft. He's now part of the Power BI CAT team. And he's a deservedly well-known and well-respected member of the Power BI and Power Platform Community at large.
Rob Collie (00:01:50):
Unlike me, Kasper had a ringside seat during some very, very transformative years at Microsoft. When the culture of the software teams was being completely remade around continuous release rather than the two-year, three-year waterfall cycles, he was there for the transition to Satya and the cultural changes that brought and the strategy pivot from Power Pivot to Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:02:15):
We talked about all those things and more. We had a really good time. I hope you would enjoy it as well. So, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:23):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:02:27):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:45):
Welcome to the show, Kasper De Jonge. How do you do?
Kasper De Jonge (00:02:48):
That's pretty good.
Rob Collie (00:02:49):
No. You're just being nice.
Kasper De Jonge (00:02:51):
I am. I am.
Thomas LaRock (00:02:52):
Yeah. He is being nice. That was awful.
Kasper De Jonge (00:02:54):
It's unpronounceable if you're not Dutch.
Rob Collie (00:02:58):
The American patois isn't really able to absorb something so sophisticated. So-
Kasper De Jonge (00:03:04):
I wouldn't say that. But in the Second World War, we had passwords between each other that only Dutch people can say. We would ask someone to say [foreign language 00:03:13]. It's like it's a city, and no one could pronounce it. So, if you were German, you couldn't pronounce it. So, that's how you would know that you were not Dutch.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:21):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:03:23):
It's like that scene in Glorious Bastards where he's asking Brad Pitt to say the thing in Italian over and over again [crosstalk 00:03:29] buon giorno.
Kasper De Jonge (00:03:36):
Great movie.
Rob Collie (00:03:39):
Yeah. There was also in World War II, the United States used the Navajo Indians with their code talkers, just absolutely unbreakable code that happen to be a language.
Kasper De Jonge (00:03:50):
I actually know some Navajo.
Rob Collie (00:03:52):
Do you?
Kasper De Jonge (00:03:52):
Kasper [Yinicia 00:03:54]. It means Kasper is my name in Navajo. I don't know why I know it. But-
Rob Collie (00:03:58):
Well, it's because of the Navajo population in Holland clearly.
Kasper De Jonge (00:04:02):
Probably all about the same.
Rob Collie (00:04:03):
Yeah. So, believe it or not, when I met you in person for the first time was the same trip where I met Tom-
Kasper De Jonge (00:04:11):
Really?
Rob Collie (00:04:12):
... in person. It was that same New Orleans conference.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:17):
Did you accost Kasper like you did to me?
Rob Collie (00:04:21):
No. See, I already internet knew Kasper before we met. We'd even arranged a basketball duel to happen.
Kasper De Jonge (00:04:29):
I didn't want to bring it up, Rob. But-
Rob Collie (00:04:31):
Go ahead. Go ahead and bring it up.
Kasper De Jonge (00:04:33):
No, no, no.
Rob Collie (00:04:34):
We challenged each other to a game of one-on-one basketball over the internet to be played in New Orleans when we got together. We found a gym. We paid for like a day pass to a gym. And we went in there.
Rob Collie (00:04:45):
And the way I remember it is that I am on a lifetime one game winning streak against Kasper. But he annihilated me. He annihilated me in the first few games. It wasn't close. He even did that move where he triples the basketball between your legs. Oh my god. So humiliating. But I quitted myself well at the end. For some reason, I managed to find my second win and find my shot.
Rob Collie (00:05:12):
I regained some measure of respect. I was able to walk off the court feeling like I was still okay.
Kasper De Jonge (00:05:18):
And you told me about hurricanes.
Rob Collie (00:05:19):
Oh, my god. Our livers aged like a decade on that trip. Every morning, I wake up going, "Oh, what do we do? Why do we do that? We're not going to do that today." And then, the next day. This was 10 years ago. Holy cow, it was 10 and a half years ago. Really interesting.
Rob Collie (00:05:36):
I remember in the course of talking to you Kasper in New Orleans over hurricanes, et cetera, watching sort of this idea come over your face over the course of that week, like, "Oh, my god I could move to Seattle. I could do the job that you used to do, Rob."
Kasper De Jonge (00:05:52):
Oh, yeah. I mean I never thought about it. But you introduced me to a lot of people at TK and all the people from the [inaudible 00:05:58] services team and Power BI and, yeah. It was definitely a good time. And I'd never thought about like I was a consultant doing multi-dimensional models and reporting services models for years and building data warehouses and all of these things. But maybe I'm going a bit ahead of it.
Kasper De Jonge (00:06:13):
When we started talking about Power Pivot, I don't know something happened in my brain that just I got obsessed by it. I was blogging and started blogging and started doing presentations about it too. That's one of the first [inaudible 00:06:27] common from the Netherlands, SQL PaaS when we had SQL Saturdays there. He said, "You have to come present."
Kasper De Jonge (00:06:32):
And, yeah, I just was obsessed by it. And I loved our conversations and talked about DAX. And that trip was amazing.
Rob Collie (00:06:39):
To give you your due here, I really want to make sure that I say this. For someone who had come from what I would call the traditional BI world, you are building multi-dimensional cubes. You were writing MDX, the feared MDX that I could never write. I really just couldn't learn it.
Rob Collie (00:06:57):
For someone who is immersed in that world and essentially validated by that world, you were good at that stuff. For you to see Power Pivot and to embrace it as something cool and with something with potential and value rather than being afraid of it, it wasn't a threat to you. But it was a threat to a lot of people with your background. So, you stood out to me. And, yeah, we really bonded over the internet over Power Pivot, over DAX, over this awesome new thing. And then, it gets a little hazy. And then, I beat you in a basketball game. And that's all I remember.
Kasper De Jonge (00:07:34):
Exactly. I do remember people telling me afterwards a couple of years after I started to work at Microsoft is there was a lot of debate whether or not they would actually hire me.
Rob Collie (00:07:44):
Really?
Kasper De Jonge (00:07:44):
I heard. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:07:45):
I'll tell you that years later.
Kasper De Jonge (00:07:46):
They tell me yesterday exactly. There was a lot of debate about them hiring me, and, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:51):
Well, I mean you were filling an awfully big pair of shoes there.
Kasper De Jonge (00:07:55):
Exactly. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:07:56):
I mean you actually filled the head count that I had vacated. I mean I think you knew. From a distance, it'd be hard for someone to know whether you would feel like sort of like one of that team until you meet some members of that team. And meeting, I mean we can even just make a joke about it like after you met me, you're like, "Oh, my god. I can totally do what that guy used to do." But, yeah, you did. You get to meet a bunch of people on that team. And I remember being very, very, very excited about that.
Rob Collie (00:08:23):
When that thought first became sort of acknowledged across the table or whatever day it was at that conference , I was like, "Oh, totally yeah. You should totally do that." That sounds like such a good idea. I'm so glad that came to pass. That's really awesome.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:38):
After all that, can you tell me what it is you do there?
Kasper De Jonge (00:08:41):
Well, things have changed significantly over the years. But when I just moved to Microsoft in Redmond, I was a program manager on the then analyst services theme/Power Pivot team. And I was working on some of the UI aspects of it like building the product there and shipping it into Excel as an add-in. And then, later, Office 15 shipping it as part of the Office add-in.
Kasper De Jonge (00:09:08):
And after that, the first version of the tabular model and also tabular the way we have it that was one of the PMs on that team creating it and shipping it. First version of Power BI that we killed luckily, the one that shipped inside of Office 365, that was not a good thing. So, we kind of killed it.
Kasper De Jonge (00:09:27):
After that, we really went full steam with Power BI when James Phillips came along. And that was, I must say, I mean that's really for me before and after time. Before, we were like we have SQL server shipping releases where it takes two years or four years to ship something and the world where all of a sudden, we were like no longer inside of the SQL server organization. But we're now part of a different team with James Phillips who came from a completely different world. He was starting Couchbase. He comes from Silicon Valley. It was a completely different world.
Kasper De Jonge (00:10:01):
And he said, "Okay. I don't care about any history. What do we need to do?" And what I want you guys to do is to say to build a new product that says five minutes to wow. That's really what he said. Someone needs to be able to log in and go to Power BI and five minutes to wow. You need to be able to say wow.
Kasper De Jonge (00:10:18):
That was a fundamental shift for us. That was completely different to anything else that we've done before even though we already were pretty amazing all the things that we were doing with Power Pivot in my mind at least then, but this was taking to the next level. And also, Satya came on board. It was also a big difference like Steve Ballmer before Satya. And he brings James Phillips there.
Kasper De Jonge (00:10:40):
And it was a tough time for a lot of people on our team as we talked about before. A lot of the old school guard, it was tough because he had to do things very differently. And he came. I remember as see, can you imagine James Phillip is a vice president. And he comes in. He storms into the room and says, "I need DAX. Help. I'm writing DAX." What? He's running it. And everyone points to me. [crosstalk 00:11:03] shit.
Kasper De Jonge (00:11:02):
And he says, "Come. Come." Okay. I had to go to his Office. And he was doing something. And he was like, "How do I write this DAX formula?" And then, it's magical answers. It's like, "What you're doing? You don't even need to write DAX," because he would try to solve problems in an Excel way. But he actually created the table. I said, "You just create some relationships here. You drag it in. It just works."
Thomas LaRock (00:11:27):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:11:28):
Oh, that's awesome. Of course, James has a strong Excel background.
Kasper De Jonge (00:11:33):
Yeah. He's an exec. And although [inaudible 00:11:38], you've probably seen all his keynotes and all these things. He comes across an exec. But I mean he's very technical. He was one of the founding people of Couchbase. He definitely knows what he's talking about.
Rob Collie (00:11:47):
Well, just the fact that even attempting to write DAX is an awesome, awesome, awesome story. That's so cool.
Kasper De Jonge (00:11:55):
Well, I must say that's another thing. So, one of the first jobs actually on the Power BI team, me, together with Josh Kaplan, we were doing Power BI Embedded. So, it's an embedding story. And you have APIs. It's not really because I had some developer background too because I used to be a developer way back when, some developer background. So, we were PMs for that.
Kasper De Jonge (00:12:15):
One moment, we got an email saying, "Oh, yeah." So, Scott Guthrie tried out your API. And he has some feedback. Shit. Scott Guthrie has some feedback. Oh my.
Rob Collie (00:12:25):
Remind for the audience who Scott Guthrie is.
Kasper De Jonge (00:12:28):
So, Scott Guthrie is, I don't know exactly what the title is, but he's the vice president reporting to Satya. And he owns everything of Azure and everything Power BI. I don't know how big his team is. They're probably 30,000 people or something on development side.
Rob Collie (00:12:44):
Yeah. It's like-
Kasper De Jonge (00:12:45):
He's the big guy.
Rob Collie (00:12:46):
It's like an Amazon-sized team.
Kasper De Jonge (00:12:49):
Yeah. He's that guy. And he's trying these things. And he's looking at the documentation. If your documentation sucks, he'll tell you.
Rob Collie (00:12:55):
Here's a similar story just to... We'll definitely come back to what you're talking about. But I want to make sure I share this. So, for a brief period of time, when I worked in Office, I drew the short straw. And my team was assigned sort of maintenance ownership of the Office web components which were ActiveX control versions of Excel essentially.
Rob Collie (00:13:18):
It's this completely false step into the web like ActiveX, like, "Oh, god. The whole thing was a debacle." So, these Office web components someone needed to, I don't know, shepherd them. We weren't really actively developing them. So, we were given ownership of the support distribution list, the email list where people would ask questions about how to get their OWC components to work. And we woke up one morning, came to work. And we checked the distribution list like we were supposed to every day.
Rob Collie (00:13:48):
And at three o'clock in the morning, someone had asked a question like, "Hey, I'm writing this script to this ActiveX control. And it's not working, blah, blah, blah." And like at 3:05 AM, five minutes later, vice president Steven Sinofsky replies and says, "Hey, this is the code you need to use instead," and gives them the alternate script that works.
Rob Collie (00:14:10):
And the person goes, "Oh, thank you. That works great." So, we're all sitting there just sort of chilled to the bone that morning, like, "Did you know Steven was on this distribution list?" Like, "No." He's been watching us this whole time every single thing we've ever said. He's seen it.
Rob Collie (00:14:24):
And furthermore, he knew the answer to a question that most of us didn't. It was like, "Oh, it was inspiring and terrifying all at once."
Kasper De Jonge (00:14:35):
Yeah. I always am impressed with people at that level at Microsoft at least the ones that I've seen is how engaged they are. I remember one since long time ago, I joined Microsoft when Bill Gates was already gone. But I once saw him present in some conference in the Netherlands long time ago. I don't know exactly what it was. And people were asking him, like, "So, I have a setup installer. And I have this on Linux." And I don't really remember exactly the question was. But he said, "Oh, okay. Yeah. You just do this, this and this on your Linux distribution. And then, you do this, this, and this." Is this Bill Gates talking about... I was just sitting there in awe-
Thomas LaRock (00:15:14):
Especially the old guard. They were just loaded with stuff like that. So, let's underline something. You packed up your family. You were married, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:15:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:15:22):
You moved internationally to pursue this dream. How did that go down family wise? That's got to be a tough sell.
Kasper De Jonge (00:15:30):
Well, it was not that tough to sell actually except my mom, obviously. But other than that, I mean this is just a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity really. I never thought that it would... I was having a nice job. And it was nice. But worked at Microsoft. I actually developed products. And I was super passionate about Power Pivot that really helped.
Kasper De Jonge (00:15:51):
I don't think I would have packed up my things to work on exchange or whatever other products. No. I was passionate about it, really. That really helped.
Rob Collie (00:15:59):
And also, didn't you have a newborn about that same time?
Kasper De Jonge (00:16:02):
She was one when I moved to the US. Yeah. It was a big change. I mean go to a whole different country. But I think the good thing is you've had him on the podcast with John Hancock was my manager then when he hired. Everyone's taking care of me and making sure everything was okay and nice flights and the CATs were taken care of. And there was something like I had a place to stay. It's not like I'm packing up for [inaudible 00:16:27].
Kasper De Jonge (00:16:27):
It's a corporate America. Microsoft's taking care of you. So, you get taken to the bank with some lady who helps you. You go to the bank and say, "Okay. So, here's the account you're going to open up," because of course in the US, it's a lot about credit scores.
Kasper De Jonge (00:16:41):
Obviously, I did not have any credit score because you come from outside. But they say, "Well, this bank doesn't care about your credit score because they are friends with Microsoft. And they don't really care about your credit score. And they think you're going to be good for it." And they give you tips and tricks and things to do and settle in. So, that's really a big change.
Rob Collie (00:17:00):
So, there's something in detail in there that I find jaw-dropping. Is there any equivalent of credit score in the Netherlands/
Kasper De Jonge (00:17:07):
No.
Rob Collie (00:17:08):
Wow.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:09):
How could that be possible?
Kasper De Jonge (00:17:10):
No. There's a reverse. So, if you do not pay things on time and you get your really bad shape of paying back things, then, you get noted in some register. And then, when you want to do a new loan, they look into that register. And then, they say, "Well, actually, you're delinquent payer. Let's talk before we do anything else."
Rob Collie (00:17:32):
So, it's pass, fail. The credit score in the Netherlands is pass, fail. But in the United States, we're like, "Oh, we really need a thousand-point scale to rate you."
Thomas LaRock (00:17:42):
Yeah. A thousand-point scale that only goes up to 849 or something.
Kasper De Jonge (00:17:46):
Yeah. It was mind-boggling. One of the things they told me like I was there. And I wanted to buy a car. And he said, "Oh, you're not going to buy a car with cash. Are you crazy? Take a loan because otherwise you'll never get a nice credit score." I had never taken a loan in my life except the mortgage. We don't do that.
Rob Collie (00:18:03):
The fact that Tom and I are just stunned, it really speaks to the American culture, doesn't it? It's like there's another way to do-
Thomas LaRock (00:18:12):
Take a loan so you can have better credit. And you need to have three or four accounts open and maintain a certain balance month to month in order to maximize your chance to go more into debt.
Kasper De Jonge (00:18:25):
So, this lady was explaining this all to me in the couple first weeks. There was a lady that you get assigned to. And she explains all these things. And I was like, "What?"
Rob Collie (00:18:32):
I've actually been thinking for you a long time that the United States like the credit score system like we should call it what it is. It's like, "Are you a good milkable crop scorer?"
Kasper De Jonge (00:18:42):
Yeah. Well, I mean this show, are you spending nice money? And if you're spending a lot of money, then, you're getting better.
Rob Collie (00:18:47):
Yeah. Are you a good consumer that we can extract a lot of money out of? There's a little bit of a loophole in it in this system which is that if you're constantly paying off all of your debts all the time like really quickly, you get a good credit score. But you're not very profitable for the credit agencies, et cetera. That's the way to really stick it to the man, is to-
Kasper De Jonge (00:19:08):
Yeah. You have to be a little bit depth.
Rob Collie (00:19:10):
Yeah. It's a weird system.
Kasper De Jonge (00:19:12):
I definitely like the US. There's lots of opportunity there. And the vibe that you get and see... I've never lived anywhere else. But the vibe you get in Seattle is just amazing. I don't see anything like his here in the Netherlands. You go to a birthday party. And you have people from Twitter and Facebook and Google and Amazon. And they're all there. And they're all talking.
Kasper De Jonge (00:19:32):
And I mean there's energy. There's really energy there that I love. I haven't seen that anywhere else.
Rob Collie (00:19:37):
That's pretty much universal the United States. I found that same energy in Cleveland. I'm kidding. I did not. Seattle is a bit special in the US, I think.
Kasper De Jonge (00:19:45):
Yeah. And that, and then, of course the nature and the trees. And there's so much space. We don't have a lot of space here in Netherlands. The same amount of price I can buy a house here. But it's in the street where I can see neighbors everywhere.
Rob Collie (00:19:56):
And how does the Netherlands feel about global warming? How does the Netherlands feel about sea level rise?
Kasper De Jonge (00:20:03):
Actually, we're not that scared of it.
Rob Collie (00:20:05):
No?
Kasper De Jonge (00:20:06):
I live right now under the sea level. My house from the sea level.
Rob Collie (00:20:09):
Yes, which was apparently New Orleans fatal flaw at one point with the hurricane.
Kasper De Jonge (00:20:13):
Yeah. But we've been having this for five, 600 years. We know how to handle it. We actually made land. We made land. We had a sea.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:22):
They're called the lowlands for a reason. And they've been that way for centuries.
Rob Collie (00:20:26):
Exactly. Yeah. I mean to be below sea level and on the ocean, you had to make that land. Otherwise, we call that ocean floor otherwise, below sea level.
Kasper De Jonge (00:20:36):
No. That land's actually because they didn't have more lands for people to build houses on. So, they just cleared up... Its inner sea, it's not out... We have an inner sea, if you will. And that's where they just cleared up that land. And people live on it now. There's whole cities on it.
Rob Collie (00:20:51):
So, I guess what you're saying is that if you've been fighting off the ocean for centuries, a sea level rise that's six inches or whatever, even something extreme like that, it's not going to bother you. It's just a rounding error.
Kasper De Jonge (00:21:06):
Well, obviously, I mean I'm just over generalizing a little bit because everyone is concerned about it. But I'm not necessarily we're concerned about the raised sea levels. It's about everything else that is a concern. And we're a very small country. So, there's not much really we can do.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:21):
The ecosystem, they'll change as a result, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:21:25):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:25):
Like shellfish or some something that doesn't exist there anymore as a result because of warmer waters and things of that nature. That's a bigger concern.
Kasper De Jonge (00:21:32):
Yeah. That's a bigger concern. Yeah. Two weeks ago was -15 Celsius. A week later it was 15 Celsius. And this week, we're back to minus two. We've never seen this before.
Rob Collie (00:21:43):
Oh, it's just so interesting though. Isn't variety the spice of life? I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. [crosstalk 00:21:49] I'm just kidding. So, I think about this through the lens of Florida, especially South Florida. It should be pretty damn concerned about sea level rise. I don't think it's going to be too long before insurance companies are going to take a very different stand on oceanfront property in Florida.
Rob Collie (00:22:06):
And that will be the place where this starts to really come home to the average American.
Kasper De Jonge (00:22:12):
I actually read in the Atlantic, there was an article about Hawaiian beaches are disappearing because people are shoring up. All the rich people are making nice walls. So, their property won't get gone. But there's no beach left. The beach are disappearing.
Rob Collie (00:22:26):
They're kind of making their own little micro-Netherlands around their property.
Kasper De Jonge (00:22:31):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:32):
I see pictures from Andre Common from time to time about he goes to the beach in the Netherlands somewhere. And low tide, I swear it's got to be a kilometer, Rob, from where they park. And they just keep walking because it's just this slow gradual decline. And so, the beach just seems to extend forever before you get to the water. It's amazing.
Rob Collie (00:22:56):
Wait. Did you just translate into Kasper's units? Did you say kilometer? Look what a metropolitan man of the world, Thomas.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:03):
I try to make our guests feel as comfortable as possible. You know this, Rob.
Kasper De Jonge (00:23:08):
Yeah. I didn't do that. I was like, "No, the sea level's going to rise by six inches. Damn it."
Thomas LaRock (00:23:11):
You did.
Rob Collie (00:23:12):
It's not centimeters.
Kasper De Jonge (00:23:14):
All my cars in the US, I set to kilometers. I never could get used to miles.
Rob Collie (00:23:18):
But how'd you deal with the speed limit then? You're just, "I'll just tell you what. I'll just drive really slow. I'll just drive 55 kilometers per hour and a 55-"
Thomas LaRock (00:23:24):
Stay with traffic.
Rob Collie (00:23:26):
There you go. That is the move. The speed limit just doesn't really matter, does it?
Kasper De Jonge (00:23:29):
Not in Seattle.
Rob Collie (00:23:32):
Really, not anywhere. 465 around Indianapolis. There's just certain stretches where it's been declared an Autobahn. There's never any cops and-
Kasper De Jonge (00:23:42):
Oh really? I have more mental traffic wise in Seattle, is never a point that you can actually drive fast enough to get in trouble.
Rob Collie (00:23:49):
That's true. That's true. How long were you in Seattle because you're back in the Netherlands now?
Kasper De Jonge (00:23:53):
Yeah. Back in Netherlands now. I was in Seattle for six years.
Rob Collie (00:23:56):
Wow.
Kasper De Jonge (00:23:57):
Yeah. It's quite a long time. But a second kid got born in US. I don’t like US part. But there are certain areas that in us that I think I would feel better to raise my kids in the Netherlands then. I just hated the fact that when I brought my kid to school, she had active shooter drills, my daughter.
Kasper De Jonge (00:24:20):
And then, six years ago, she's now 12, she still remembers. She was telling me after like, "We had to go into some closet." So, active shooter drills. And we were living in Redmond. Redmond, it's all Google. It's all Amazon. It's all Microsoft. And there were little kids in my daughter's class that didn't have money to eat because their parents were the cleaners. They didn't have money to eat. And we had to pay as parents, you give some money to the school. And then, the school gets them some breakfast.
Kasper De Jonge (00:24:50):
And a couple of streets over, there was lots of things that happened to deck over time. A couple of streets over, there was a party and someone got killed, shot by accident because there was a gun laying around. These things don't happen here.
Rob Collie (00:25:02):
I completely understand what you're saying. But especially if you've had the benefit of growing up someplace different where the sense of we're all on the same team and we're all going to sort of take care of each other. I mean it's not a yes, no thing. It's a dial like how much do we acknowledge it. How much do we take care of each other? How much do we protect each other?
Rob Collie (00:25:23):
If you grew up in a place where that dial is sort of cranked relatively high and then you come to some place where it's not and I know that we're not, the United States has got a relatively low score on the take care of each other thing. And that's not me being anti-patriotic or un-American or whatever. It's just sad. I really think we need to as a country be doing more to crank that dial the other way. Every little bit helps. I can imagine is that really sort of the primary reason for going back?
Kasper De Jonge (00:25:52):
It's that and also parents who are getting older. So, at one point, it's hard for them to travel. And, obviously, I was in an incredibly lucky position that I had an amazing team that said, "Yeah. If you want to move back, you can keep your job."
Rob Collie (00:26:11):
And in 2010, when I left, that wasn't a thing yet. When I moved to Cleveland, if I had left seven years later or whatever, they probably would have let me keep my job. And my whole life would be very, very, very different because I would not have left. I relocated for family reasons. And I'm glad that I did leave. I think it's worked out better. I've really enjoyed and appreciated the path that my life has taken since then. But I wouldn't have if I'd had the option.
Thomas LaRock (00:26:38):
Yeah. Now Kasper, you left before the plague, right? You left before last year. It wasn't a COVID thing.
Kasper De Jonge (00:26:45):
No, no. I left in 2016, quite some time ago. No, no. Before COVID, yeah. I miss the work because I don't do exactly the same I used to do because I used to be a product PM actually developing features and working with the developers and brainstorming and all of these amazing things that we would huddle together and do all these things. That I definitely miss because you were talking about your thrones and names and Rob for like Marius. And those are some people that no one have heard about because they never really go speak out at conferences.
Kasper De Jonge (00:27:18):
And then, they have no presence online to talk to the community. But they are amazing people. The ideas and the brainstorms and the things that are happening there is just, yeah, next level. And that's the unfortunate thing now with COVID. I haven't been to the Office in a year or more than a year, actually a year and a half. I haven't been to Seattle in a year and a half.
Kasper De Jonge (00:27:39):
I used to soak that up like fly to Seattle and stay there for a week and just brainstorm and hear and talk and see what's going on and, yeah. That's not happening. And that I definitely miss because I'm sitting here. I work fully remote. I already since 2016. I changed from the product role.
Kasper De Jonge (00:27:59):
We're actually developing product two what we now do was our customer advisory team which I have an amazing team too. We have Adam Saxton, Patrick Leblanc, Matthew Roach, Chris Webb, a lot of other people on our team. They're really good guys.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:17):
I was going to mention how Kasper mentioned the names of the people on the team. It was Patrick Leblanc, not Leblanc, Leblanc, Leblanc. He did it perfectly.
Rob Collie (00:28:27):
See, it can be pronounced. We can't use Leblanc. We can't use that as a World War II test to trap the Germans.
Kasper De Jonge (00:28:36):
So, many people know French.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:36):
I bet you could.
Rob Collie (00:28:40):
Yeah. I'm positive that I would never be able to pronounce a French sentence the way that Olivier could. That's never going to happen. It just sounds so much cooler from a native speaker.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:50):
So, I have a quick question, questions and comments. Kasper, you said you killed Power BI V1. Tell me why you killed? What was wrong with it? What was so grotesque that you just said, "This Franken monster just needs to go?"
Kasper De Jonge (00:29:06):
The really good thing there was I mean back and then, it was really Office is everything. And we need to be able to get people everyone uses Office. I mean it's still the case like Excel. I listen to you guys a podcast too with Bill Jelen which is awesome too. Excel is really the place to be. Office is the place to be. So, what we're trying to add on our way of doing things and are trying to... That came up in that call too.
Kasper De Jonge (00:29:31):
Office is a different ballgame than our team. It just takes forever to get anything done. And that is what killed us because we wanted to iterate. And we had to compete then because that was the big problem. We had to compete with Tableau because when we started with Power Pivot, we were doing Excel which is great. And a lot of people were using it. And I think you guys mentioned it there in too.
Kasper De Jonge (00:29:55):
It's so hard to find Power Pivot. It's so hard to find the data model. It's so hard to find the features that could compete with things like Tableau or Qlik or whatever the tool is at the time. And then, we're building on top of that inside of Office and all of these things. And then, James Phillips was the guy who came in and said, "Guys, this is not the way forward. This is not the way that we can compete because we're going to lose if we do it this way."
Kasper De Jonge (00:30:20):
And that's where he really came along and said, "Okay. We're going to do it completely different. We're going to look at things completely." And he had the guts to go do this too. He had the guts to go in against Office, not really that they were kind of going against. But he said, "If we need to compete with these guys who don't have Office," they are a startup team, they have dedicated people working on this amazing product because I mean Tableau was definitely an amazing product, and it still is, yeah, we have to do something.
Kasper De Jonge (00:30:49):
So, that's really why the [inaudible 00:30:50] of Power BI got moved out. And we went to a completely separate product where James came in and said, "You need to be able to sign up with your email address, just like he just did the startup trick with us." He said you need to be able to sign up with your email address, your corporate email address, not your Hotmail. We don't want that, corporate email address. You log in. And within five minutes, you have to have some insights to where you can say, "Wow, this is cool." And he did it.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:20):
So, I'm going to share my James Phillips story because I have one. I have one James Phillips story. And I'm going to say the year was 2015. I could be off a year or so. And James Phillips drives from Seattle to Vancouver to meet with me and the members of the past board of directors.
Kasper De Jonge (00:31:41):
Oh Yeah. I know what this is. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:43):
And he does that five minutes to wow speech. And I'm sitting there while he's talking. And he says five minutes a while, five minutes a while. While he's doing all that, I log in. I sign up. I can't use my Hotmail account. I have to use my Thomas LaRock or create a new account and all that.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:00):
I clicked on I think the Google Analytics widget for the dashboard to get some data. Less than five minutes, I had insights. It was up and running five minutes a while. So, when he gets done talking, I just turned over. I go, "By the way, the five minutes, the wow is a real deal." And I show my laptop. I go, "While he was talking, I'm up and running with Power BI right now."
Rob Collie (00:32:19):
At that moment, James is like, "Oh, I like you." You, I like.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:24):
Within 10 minutes, he didn't like me anymore.
Rob Collie (00:32:26):
Well-
Thomas LaRock (00:32:28):
No, actually, it didn't happen then. It happened later. He was there to ask for pass to help him launch essentially Power BI events and user groups. And he gave his pitch. We asked a few questions. We essentially told him we needed time to talk about it. He was supposed to have dinner with us. He decided not to have dinner, started driving home immediately. We took that as a bad sign.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:56):
And, eventually, the answer that came back from us as a board was PaaS was simply not equipped to provide the support that he needed to do the launch that he wanted. And I feel like we really failed there. He was handing us an opportunity. But because of who we were and what we could offer, and Rob knows this, we could not execute. And we were not the right place for him.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:26):
And I feel bad, but I had no option, but to say, "Hey, this sounds great. But we can't do that. And James, I know you just want us to just take this on and make all this magic happen. And I felt like the best thing was to say no to you now instead of disappointing you later. I'd rather just you start looking elsewhere immediately and get your stuff up and running." And that was essentially what we ended up doing.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:50):
But every time somebody talks about James Phillips, they always have pleasant things to say. He does all these great things. He's a great person. And I'm always like, "Yeah." And I'm the guy who kind of disappointed him. So, I always feel like if I ever see James again, I have to just apologize profusely. He's going to be like you. You could have been a part of this.
Rob Collie (00:34:11):
Oh, Tom, I wouldn't worry about it.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:13):
Yeah. True. He doesn’t remember.
Rob Collie (00:34:14):
Everything always works out in the end. I mean things worked out great for pass. I wouldn't sweat it.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:18):
Yeah. And I think years later, it's pretty well known that no was the correct answer. I hope James, if he's ever listening to this and we should have him as a guest, I hope James understands why we were just not going to be able to execute for what he needed. And I wish. And then, immediately, you had your own data analytics conference there within the next year or so.
Rob Collie (00:34:46):
Data insights.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:47):
Data insights. I'm like, "Great. I'd like to go." I couldn't even get in the door. They're like, "Sorry. Sold out." I'm like, "Really? I'm the president of PaaS, just like... Right. You're not on the list.
Rob Collie (00:34:58):
Not on the list.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:58):
That's how I knew I was just being cut from James Phillips.
Rob Collie (00:35:02):
In fact, they flip it over to the other sheet. And they go, "Actually, you're on that other list. You're on the Dutch bad credit score."
Thomas LaRock (00:35:08):
I couldn't even get...
Kasper De Jonge (00:35:09):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:10):
I'm like, "I'll pay my own way. I'll give you money to attend your event." And they were like, "No."
Rob Collie (00:35:16):
Yeah. Under no circumstances am I permitted to let you in here with Mr. LaRock.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:20):
That's exactly what happened.
Rob Collie (00:35:22):
So, Tom, you asked that question. I think we're getting into the really cool stuff right now. So, let's stick with it. You asked that question about why did you have to kill Power BI V1? And before I even heard Kasper's answer, I was dying to jump in with the snarky joke because it was too tightly integrated with Office.
Rob Collie (00:35:39):
So, first of all, we get this out of the way. It was the right decision. There's no two ways about it. It was the right decision. At the same time though, it is a tremendous shame, in my opinion. And it's not the blame for the shame here. It does not lie 100% at all with one or the other. But I've said it a million times. If Microsoft were just... If all it was, was Excel and Power BI, that was the Microsoft corporation, Excel and Power BI, they would rule the world. There would never have been a Tableau.
Rob Collie (00:36:15):
All these other tools, there wouldn't have been any room for them because it rounds to a 100% of the important users of these tools, these BI tools. Just round it to 100. They're the Excel people. There are people who are not Excel, people who build BI.
Kasper De Jonge (00:36:32):
I mean it's not that easy, I think. I mean, while I do agree, it's not that easy because as you know, beginning especially with Power Pivot, we were struggling with the fact that people are running their business on Excel with macros and VBA, Scripts and-
Thomas LaRock (00:36:46):
Totally.
Kasper De Jonge (00:36:46):
... whatever it is. And they're not going to upgrade. And while Tableau is upgrading every month or every couple of weeks and they're doing new features… So, even if we wanted to do it, customers are going to say, "No way. We're going to upgrade Excel."
Rob Collie (00:37:01):
I've got no objection to what you just said. I completely agree with all that. But I'm still saying though that if that was the whole company, these problems were solvable.
Kasper De Jonge (00:37:10):
Yeah. I mean you can see it, for example, our sales organization, if you compare to our sales organization to Tableau or any other competitor sales organization, they have dedicated... We have some guys too. But in every country, we have a handful of people where they have a whole company full of sales guys who go in and do all these things. Yeah. I mean they have more resources and things to do. But they don't have the integration.
Rob Collie (00:37:35):
So, think about if you're familiar with it, the engineering effort that went into Office is Click-to-Run initially, that thing is insane. It is like a Manhattan project of software in terms of compatibility and deployment. It's unbelievable what they've done there. It is such a radical, radical, radical departure from everything else that they've done. Now, it's all a matter of competing priorities. This is the thing, is that Microsoft isn't just those two products.
Rob Collie (00:38:08):
But if they were just those two products and you're capable of pulling off something like Click-to-Run, you absolutely, Microsoft, could have solved this alternate Microsoft. Absolutely could and would have solved all of these compatibility problems that we're talking about.
Rob Collie (00:38:21):
But they weren't high enough of a mutual priority for the teams with these separate incentives. This is what big companies do.
Kasper De Jonge (00:38:29):
Like in the Office world, they were competing with the Google that was coming up with all the documented [crosstalk 00:38:34].
Rob Collie (00:38:35):
That's right. That's right.
Kasper De Jonge (00:38:36):
And so, that was more important because they don't want to lose everything. And that's what they did.
Rob Collie (00:38:41):
So, this is why I'm saying simultaneously, even though I kind of griped about it at the time, I have absorbed and admit that this was absolutely the right move. It's been very, very good. It's benefited my business tremendously. I'm nothing, but a winner in this story. And at the same time, I think we should all still admit to ourselves that it is a shame that marriage sort of had to come unglued because the most impact, the absolute most optimal outcome was down that road.
Rob Collie (00:39:09):
It's just that parties involved for good reason weren't incentivized to pay that level of cost to tackle these problems.
Kasper De Jonge (00:39:17):
Yeah. I agree. It is tough. But I think it's actually the right decision. And the way that we can move and operate now and we have some amazing people like visionaries on the team, I'm not saying that Office is now visionaries. But they are bound within the organizations and expectations that they have. We said we just tell them, "Every month, probably desktop is going to ship, and you have to update."
Kasper De Jonge (00:39:41):
And I mean, sometimes, things break. Well, can you imagine, Rob, that Excel is going to break things?
Rob Collie (00:39:47):
Not allowed.
Kasper De Jonge (00:39:48):
Yeah. Exactly. And for good reason. And people built their business on top of that. But people like Amir Netz go, "They have amazing ideas. And they can be constrained."
Rob Collie (00:39:59):
[inaudible 00:39:59]. So, back to this Office versus kind of the freedom to innovate kind of path, I mean it's a very overwhelmingly net positive trade-off that was made. It still is a trade-off.
Rob Collie (00:40:14):
I believe the place where Microsoft is seeing the downside of the trade-off is that adoption of these tools is harder to force top down than it would be if it were bottom up. Bottom up adopt is always fun. So, an organization commits. They buy the licenses. They purchase Power BI. They commit to it.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:34):
Well, actually, we do see it most of the times it comes bottom up.
Rob Collie (00:40:39):
Yeah. That's the way it has to happen. I agree, even if the organization has purchased and is committed to Power BI. Now, it's not a yes/no thing whether or not they're going to adopt it. Of course, yet the answer is going to be yes. There's a question of how fast and how well. It's a measure of degrees, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:40:55):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:40:56):
And that alternate reality, I talk about where the two orgs had really ponied up all the resources required to solve all these very difficult problems, oh man, the bottom up adoption would just be like wildfire. That's the thing that we lost. But we didn't really lose it because we were never going to get there as it was, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:41:14):
No. But I think we're getting back to it. I mean I don't know if you've seen any of the new things. Chris Webb has a new blog post out of it. And it's about actually being able to have an Excel spreadsheet and a PivotTable hosted inside a Power BI and running against the data set in Power BI.
Kasper De Jonge (00:41:32):
We're getting back to it. And you can have a PivotTable inside of Excel and say, "Okay. Connect to my data set that are sitting in Power BI." So, we're getting really back to it.
Rob Collie (00:41:43):
I agree it's not the 100% A-plus score though, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:41:47):
Of course.
Rob Collie (00:41:48):
A large percentage of these things that I see the integration points between Excel and Power BI, they're all things that happen after you've already built a model, after you've got a data set published. The thing is how do these data sets get created? It's the author. It's the Excel author that I think we're not collectively as an ecosystem doing enough about.
Kasper De Jonge (00:42:09):
Yeah. I totally agree. I don't see that happening.
Rob Collie (00:42:12):
What are you going to do, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:42:13):
But we see more and more. This is really one of the areas that we, as Microsoft, are really amazing at and especially, again, I see this as also a change after Satya came along. It's more cooperative. So, all these amazing things like the security stuff that we integrate with, just mind-boggling. No one has this. And it's just because we're working together with all these AED people and MCAS. And there's so many. No one has this. And we just integrate, and, yeah, we just do it. And teams integration.
Rob Collie (00:42:43):
It's true.
Kasper De Jonge (00:42:45):
It's really amazing.
Rob Collie (00:42:46):
Yeah. We're talking about this divorce in a way from Office. But no. Power BI runs in Office tenants, right?
Kasper De Jonge (00:42:54):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:42:54):
It is a shared security and administration framework which is that in itself would have taken an act of God in the days that I was there. That sort of cooperation was never going to happen. It is really, really, really impressive. It's not a secret or a mystery as to why Microsoft is so successful in the business space for business customers and not just enterprise either. It doesn't have to be enterprise. It can be mid-market. It's really hard to find something of better value than Microsoft.
Kasper De Jonge (00:43:27):
But I think also this is again going back to the mindset that James Phillips brought along. I mean I keep talking about it. But we started out not having any of these things. We just shipped something, and we created this market. And we created this excitement around things. And then, at one point, we got to this inflection point where, okay, now we're starting to talk to security teams. And now, we're starting to talk in the boardroom instead of bottoms up. People are just excited and doing things and writing DAX formulas and ability to just say... We talked about with Bill Jelen.
Kasper De Jonge (00:43:58):
So, instead of actually having to redo the same Excel spreadsheet and copy and pasting and stuff, you can just press refresh. People were excited about it. And they went to their managers and their IT teams and said, "Guys, we want this. And we want this for more people." And they started sharing. And then, oh, now, we need licenses.
Kasper De Jonge (00:44:17):
And then, the security team comes along saying, "Oh, what is all this information stuff, all this data that you are putting inside of the cloud? Are you crazy?" And then, we get all this resource. So, now, we have all these features bring your own key. You can encrypt all your data with your own key and stuff like this that we needed to add it. But we didn't.
Kasper De Jonge (00:44:38):
Previously, when we were on the SQL server team and we were building all services, we would think about all these scenarios and just ship them. And that's why it took so long. But now, now we just add it afterwards.
Rob Collie (00:44:48):
It's amazing. The cloud shift too, right? In the beginning, such resistance on the customer front for putting something like BI in the cloud. And even though they already had their email on the cloud, it was always so funny.
Rob Collie (00:45:03):
There aren't that many organizations anymore that have a no-cloud rule. -
Kasper De Jonge (00:45:07):
Yeah. There are still some countries where things are a bit less cloud, like, Germany, for example. They're a bit less and easy. They use Power BI report server, for example, on-prem. But the majority, that's a night and day between five years ago and now. People willing to go to the cloud.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:28):
I want to make a comment about because we've said a big difference between then and now like Satya and somebody like James Phillips coming in. And for me, I think the biggest turning point or one of them that I've seen between, say, old, new Microsoft, and you guys touched upon it earlier, you mentioned you can't have Excel break. Excel can't break. That would be bad, so, this whole idea of backward compatibility.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:52):
And for us over in the SQL world, the SQL MVPs, now the data platform, MVPs, for years, we asked about certain features. And we were told we have to be concerned of backward compatibility. Whatever we're going to introduce, we have to make sure nothing ever breaks. So, along comes SQL 2014 and introduce a new cardinality estimator. And it was almost like the surgeon general's warning right at the top just to let you know, the new cardinality estimator may help your queries run faster. And it may help some queries run slower. You should know that.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:29):
And we're going to keep going forward. And that to me was this turning point of a new Microsoft. I'm like, "What about backward compatibility?" They're like, "Yeah. Something might run slower. If it runs slower, we'll give you a flag to make it run as good as it used to be. And you should look at [inaudible 00:46:43]." And that was it. Just move on.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:44):
And I see that with Power BI like Kasper said, every time I load Power BI, I feel I don't know how far behind I am on updates. I just know I need to... Sometimes, I don't want to fire it up simply because I know I'm going to have to update it immediately. But I'm okay with it too because I know that's the way I want it to be. I want to be up-to-date with the latest features especially security features, things like that.
Thomas LaRock (00:47:09):
So, that whole notion of backward compatibility which for years was almost a way I thought for PMs at Microsoft to just not do things because it was hard. And it might break something else. So, I'm just not even going to worry about it. Yeah. That sounds like a great feature. But I ain't going to do that because something might break. And that is no longer the mindset.
Rob Collie (00:47:27):
The whole backward compatibility edict in its day was important because without it, those same program managers were more than happy to just wreck the world with their new ideas. It was to control the drug addict that would destroy things.
Kasper De Jonge (00:47:46):
Shipping software at Microsoft is just a whole different ballgame than shipping software anywhere else. At least, I've never worked in actual other product companies. I was a developer too. And I worked for hospitals and other things. And we wrote software.
Kasper De Jonge (00:48:01):
But building products that has been used by millions of people, you really have to be careful. And you have to think about so many more things than just backwards compatibility is one. Even in Power BI, we don't break things. The APIs, we won't break. And if we do so, then, it's probably not meant to be. So, we still have to think about backwards compatibility a lot.
Kasper De Jonge (00:48:20):
But it's different. We can take more a little bit more risks than, for example, Office. When I want to give you a new Power BI desktop file, I check it in now. And it's going to be there a couple of hours from now in your Office store. If there's something wrong with the Power BI service, we can go in and fix it like in an hour. That's not possible in your Office. We're set up differently than Office. And we're set up ways in ways that are different than where before.
Kasper De Jonge (00:48:43):
But still, there's a lot of other things too. A lot of people are very surprised by it. If you write software at Microsoft, you have to think about... And Rob was probably there in the real days like OAPI. You have to document everything that you do because the EU in, I don't know exactly one of us, like 2000 something said, "You cannot have APIs that you're not telling everyone about because it's unfair." And they lost this big lawsuit.
Rob Collie (00:49:08):
Yeah. Internal APIs that Office would expose, the SQL team could use, or vice versa that were undocumented for the rest of the world. They took that fun little toy away from us. We weren't allowed to do that anymore. We weren't doing that. You'd think that cases where we were doing that were meant to be sinister. They never were. They were never meant to be sinister.
Rob Collie (00:49:27):
It was just like, "Look, if we can allow something to work without having to carry the backward compatibility burden of it forever for the rest of the world, that would be awesome." Well, we got that toy taken away. It was taken out of our toolbox as well. And I understand why. It is something that could be abused. It wasn't a sinister thing that we were doing. But, yeah. We had documented everything from that point forward [crosstalk 00:49:50] every last little bit like your file format areas. It just became this massive clerical problem in addition to the software engineering.
Kasper De Jonge (00:49:56):
It's not just this. It's also about they're saying that Microsoft runs on trust. And it's really something that everyone it needs to be secure. I mean, sometimes, we're not doing it as much as we can. But we try to be accessible for everyone. If you use a Microsoft product. And you have a disability or something, you can still use it. We will try our best to be able to use it.
Kasper De Jonge (00:50:18):
That's definitely not going to be the case with every other product. Secure by default. Lots of things that we have to think about that other companies really don't have to think about which makes it good too. You can trust it.
Rob Collie (00:50:29):
Yeah. Microsoft does get held to a higher bar than a lot of other companies do. And part of that is the outcome of the antitrust case and the court battles with the EU. I mean it's not a 100% source of it. It is that Microsoft your reputation, the reputation of Microsoft is just super, super, super important to preserve. And we're still watching this next wave of technology companies.
Rob Collie (00:50:54):
So, a lot of them are still operating in that before era where they haven't really been held to account yet. Their turning point's coming.
Kasper De Jonge (00:51:03):
I mean it makes total sense if you ask me. If you're a startup company, you're just going to go. And you're going to listen to feedback and listen to customers.
Rob Collie (00:51:10):
But we have tech giants today that aren't being held to the same standard that Microsoft is being held to.
Kasper De Jonge (00:51:17):
It's because of the legacy.
Rob Collie (00:51:19):
They're in different businesses. So, Kasper, I had a question. If we think of the Power BI CAT team as these smoke jumping ninjas that get called in to solve problems or navigate obstacles for a customer, things like that, how many people are in that talent pool? How many candidates are there? If a new customer question or obstacle comes up, how many potential people can that be assigned to? How many people like yourself?
Kasper De Jonge (00:51:46):
So, we don't have a lot of people on the team. And there's multiple different people who are doing different things. I think, probably, there's around 10, 15 people worldwide that are actually talking to customers in scenarios like this. But again, really, the big thing that we're trying to do is because Power BI is growing so massively, it doesn't scale.
Kasper De Jonge (00:52:08):
So, we are also trying to scale in different manners in different ways because we want to help more people because, every day, we get emails like, "Oh, my customer, you need to talk to my customer because he has trouble connecting with SAP, using single sign-on with Kerberos." And who knows?
Rob Collie (00:52:27):
Yeah. It's sort of Adam when we had him on the show. He was talking about back in support, he could answer support calls or he could go out and blog proactively about the 90th percentile of problems. I think I see where you're going with the scaling thing. Let's talk about that.
Rob Collie (00:52:42):
Before we go there, when a problem comes up or a question comes up from a customer, that for whatever reason, the CAT team is going to put one of you on it, how is that assignment process made? Is it just based on availability or is it based on geography or is there some sort of matching of skill set?
Kasper De Jonge (00:52:59):
All these things are escalations. Escalations, that's the first thing. It happens like an email comes from James or an email comes from Scott Guthrie or Satya saying, "This customer is having this Power BI problem. They reached out to me. This usually how it goes. And it reached out to me and, yeah. We need to get it solved."
Kasper De Jonge (00:53:18):
So, then, we go and look. But usually, it's not really something that we can really do. It's just making sure that maybe sometimes, it's a support case that didn't go the way it's supposed to go or there is a really bad bug for them that just hits their edge case. It hits them, and really hasn't found anywhere else. And the support case got lost.
Kasper De Jonge (00:53:36):
And so, we just need to put people to the right people together because we know the right people, you put the right people together, and things get solved, or they have an architectural ready to go start a new project or something that is big spans all kinds of products and things, and they want to just verify it with someone because we go in, and we tell them, "We're not going to do the project for you." That's out of scope. We're not doing it.
Rob Collie (00:54:02):
You can't.
Kasper De Jonge (00:54:03):
We can advise you. Oh, we can't. And it just doesn't scale.
Rob Collie (00:54:06):
Not enough people.
Kasper De Jonge (00:54:07):
And there's tons and tons of other people who can do it. There's this whole partner's site on the Power BI website whereas amazing partners. There's plenty of other people who can do it. We're just there. We're going to go in and give them advice. And this is how you can set it up. And, maybe sometimes, we know a bit more about the future than the rest of the people. So, we tell them, "Okay. Maybe, we should start thinking about it in this way or that way." And then, we usually go back out of the way and give it back to the field.
Rob Collie (00:54:32):
So, those emails, well, let's say that come from James or whatever, do they go to Mark? And then, now, we've got to sort of figure out is this a Kasper or an Adam or a Patrick?
Kasper De Jonge (00:54:43):
Yeah. I mean usually we're somewhat interchangeable, really, most of the folks. They have the same skills and things like this because we never really have to go really deep. Sometimes, it happens like, "Oh, I have this model, and it doesn't fit in my premium capacity." Okay. It's just, yeah. You open VertiPaq Analyzer. And you take a look into how everything is going and how... Yeah.
Kasper De Jonge (00:55:06):
I mean most of the team can handle this, those things. But, obviously, when things get really hairy, we have people like Michael Kovalsky on our team who's really deep into analysis services. Obviously, we have Chris Webb. And also for us, when things get really hairy, we can just call up a developer and say, "Guys, come look at this with us. Something really fishy is going on here," and no one else obviously has that backdoor.
Rob Collie (00:55:28):
Yeah. So, mostly interchangeable. Every now and then, there's something deep that you would sort of specialize and say, "Okay. This is a Chris Webb or whatever, right?" That's something I was really interested in coming into this, was as we sort of have, at our company, a similar sort of matchmaking need. We have a new client project or whatever.
Rob Collie (00:55:46):
And like what you described, most of our consultants, the average job, the average project that we're engaged with is something that really fits many different members of our team. But every now and then, they'll be like, "Oh, we're going to be coding a power app in this one." Okay. We got to make sure that we get one of these couple of people engaged in it then. So, it sounds pretty similar.
Kasper De Jonge (00:56:03):
So, we are thinking about because again, for everything, Power BI is growing. The team is growing. So, we're also thinking about growing our team. So, we need to think about something here too. So, we need some deep experts. For example, we have a guy on our team Serge. When you talk security, he knows everything like TLS 1.4. I don't know. He knows all these things and all the encryption keys and how this works.
Kasper De Jonge (00:56:28):
And so, when big security questions comes up, we call in Serge. And then, he goes talk. The InfoSec teams love him. He goes in deep. And he talks about all these things. None of us can do that. And probably going forward, we're going to have a bit more people who have in-depth skills because there's also more and more integration with dynamics. And we have someone who helps us with SAP because again that's a whole different ballgame too. So, we do have some expertise. But, in general, everyone has to know models and VertiPaq Analyzer because that's comes up a lot as you can imagine.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:04):
Does your team have a need for someone that is on Twitter a lot?
Kasper De Jonge (00:57:08):
I think we all are very much a lot on Twitter. So, I think-
Thomas LaRock (00:57:12):
Okay. So, or writes LinkedIn posts. How about somebody who just can be critical of the data they're working with?
Kasper De Jonge (00:57:20):
Critical data they're working with. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:22):
Your model stinks. These nulls are horrible, things of that nature. There's no real need for that skill?
Kasper De Jonge (00:57:28):
No.
Rob Collie (00:57:28):
All of SQL Twitter just cried out in anguish. That's our core competency.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:38):
How about just somebody that has for years been able to just look people in the face no matter what and just say, "No."
Kasper De Jonge (00:57:45):
No. I think we're really good at saying no. All of us.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:50):
All right. So, I'm halfway there.
Kasper De Jonge (00:57:51):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:52):
All right. I'm halfway there. I can say, "No. I'm on Twitter. I just have to learn Power BI." [crosstalk 00:57:57]
Rob Collie (00:57:59):
We've already talked about this in five minutes, you were cranking out the wow and that James Phillips meeting.
Kasper De Jonge (00:58:05):
Exactly. You're ready to go.
Rob Collie (00:58:06):
Yeah. Because I logged into Power BI. You're hired. All you need to know is star schema. And I think you've got that.
Kasper De Jonge (00:58:13):
That is the part of the feedback in our team. Most of the people in my team, you have credibility. And when we go back to the engineering team and we tell them, like, "Guys, this is really a problem . You need to go fix this because, otherwise, it's going to be a massive, massive problem. Hey, listen."
Kasper De Jonge (00:58:32):
And that's really important, I think. And, actually, the one thing that I didn't really touch upon, we do have some specialists too because that's really a big problematic area, I think, in probably the whole of the BI industry, is we all love our data models and our DAX and our joints. But if you really can't tell the story, it's a problem. We have two guys in our team who are amazing at it.
Kasper De Jonge (00:58:59):
They can take some model and some questions and some things from customers, and they transform it into a UI. I called it the UI, not just necessarily a report, a user interface and a report that looks stunning. And it just tells the story so amazing.
Kasper De Jonge (00:59:16):
And that is definitely an area that I think all of us can learn a lot from.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:22):
Hey, Rob, we had Hugh Millen. And what did he tell us? He feels accomplished when something he's done that's by presenting data. He finds something meaningful. The two things he says here is, "Is it comprehensible, and do I get from point A to point B? And do I tell that story?" So, it's amazing how this guy, Hugh, and what he's in his background wherever has that same connection to the Power BI CAT team.
Rob Collie (00:59:49):
Yeah. This is another episode where a former NFL quarterback is without realizing, he doesn't know, I don't think, that there are books out there and a whole thing about data storytelling and stuff like that. But he talks the talk because he's learned it in the trenches the hard way with his radio show.
Kasper De Jonge (01:00:07):
Yeah. It's pretty amazing. And it's really amazing to see how these guys get it. And we're trying to get a lot of that stuff into Power BI too. How can we make it easier for people to tell the story? Actually, I said we're kind of generalized. Actually, now, I'm thinking about it, there are definitely some specializations in the team. And the more we grow, we need to go continue in that way.
Rob Collie (01:00:25):
It really does sound very similar to the composition of our consulting team. I'm not saying that we're the same people or whatever. But in terms of like there's this core that is shared, there's 90% core. But there's a lot. That's specialization. There's a long tail of specialization because there are many, many, many different specialties, core, power query, and data modeling and DAX and navigating the Power BI service.
Rob Collie (01:00:51):
I mean that's everyone. That's the table stakes. Everyone's got to be really, really, really good at that. Not everyone needs to be the expert on writing power apps or whatever. I really like, by the way, that you're security expert. Even his name sounds like security, Serge. It's just like if you say it really fast, it sounds security. It's like he was born for this.
Kasper De Jonge (01:01:11):
Hey, I think he is. It's pretty amazing all these things that are happening there. And I think the way I sometimes say it, we are tip of the spear. We see things months before everyone else because we hear this from these big customers. We're doing these crazy things with Power BI that no one has ever thought was possible. And they're running into problems. And they're turning into things that no one haven't even thought about.
Kasper De Jonge (01:01:34):
And then, we try to help them in a way that makes it work for them. And if it doesn't work, we need to bring it back to the engineering teams. And, for example, a lot of the feedback that we're giving today to the engineering teams, look, I run a meeting every month with all the Power BI leadership team like Amir and Arun and all the PMs are there where we share the feedback that we're getting from the field, that we're getting from the customers, that we see on Twitter, as you know where everyone is on Twitter a lot in my team.
Kasper De Jonge (01:02:03):
But also, we interact with people. And they come up. They ask questions and, yeah. We give that feedback back and say, "Guys, now, we're seeing this, and this is a problem." And they're taking that into account when they're going to do their next semester plan. So, Power BI does... We only think we do six months. We work. We plan for six months. We do the work.
Kasper De Jonge (01:02:23):
And then, we're going to plan the next six months of work. So, we're never going to go at further than that. Obviously, there are some longer term goals and visions than things that people want to think about. But all of that feedback comes in. So, all the burning questions that customers have right now, I mean they're probably going to be solved in the fall of this year. That's how quickly things go. And that's pretty amazing.
Rob Collie (01:02:45):
I really wonder how hard it would be for me to adapt to that kind of software pace because I lived the old pace and left before the transition. You got to live through the transition with everybody else. I bet that would be a real culture shock for me being dropped in that river.
Kasper De Jonge (01:03:01):
It was hard for a lot of people. And there's people who still can. The specs and the spec reviews that we used to do have to do. I mean you had documents and documents, pages and pages of documents describing everything. And then, you have spec reviews where all the engineers would come in the room. And they would beat you up on the stuff that you didn't think about.
Kasper De Jonge (01:03:22):
I mean that doesn't happen anymore. It's not there. We have a one-pager. And you have some docs in note. And you work on it collaboratively. And it's get taken as it goes along really.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:33):
That might be a lot of fun actually. You describe it that way.
Kasper De Jonge (01:03:34):
It is. I think the author was fun too because this stuff I learned from those spec reviews and the things and not just technically, but also communicating things well. And I always tell people after I've seen House of Cards, I said "Okay. This is Microsoft." This is the way it used to be.
Rob Collie (01:03:50):
Oh yeah. A lot of maneuvering, machinations.
Kasper De Jonge (01:03:54):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:54):
That show is eye-opening about power, I think. I learned a lot from the first two seasons there.
Rob Collie (01:04:01):
Those specs you talked about, there was actually a moment back in the day when we were doing the dreaded stack ranking meeting that Microsoft doesn't do anymore. Get in a room and have to rank 30 people from one to end in terms of how valuable they've been for the last year. It's just awful. Just the worst thing ever. And our director of program management at the time, he introduced this new wrinkle which was all the managers, we had to print out all of the specifications, all the specs that our people had written over the past year and bring them into the room.
Kasper De Jonge (01:04:32):
What?
Rob Collie (01:04:32):
And I swear. I swear he took them all and assembled them and almost physically weighed them. And there were all these stacks of specs. Some of them were small. Most people's stacks of specs were sort of in the same range of height. And then, you get to the end of the list, the end of the row, sit on this giant table. And there was this one stack that loomed over all the others and ruled them from on the high like a tyrant. And that was our friend, Alan Folding. Alan Folding stack of PivotTable and related specs. And you flipped through them. And they were not padded with fluff either. I mean Alan had just... He had outspecified.
Kasper De Jonge (01:05:12):
I can only imagine.
Rob Collie (01:05:15):
And as silly as that exercise sounds, there actually was something objectively valuable about it. You would have been able to see just how much work Alan had done, if you hadn't. I mean, of course, there's all kinds of things. It's really hard to reach the decisions to write a short decision down. And so, it probably wasn't fair to the people who had small stacks. But Alan's large stack of specs was 100% legitimate.
Kasper De Jonge (01:05:42):
I can only imagine.
Rob Collie (01:05:45):
Yeah. Earlier, the very beginning you said five minutes to wow. You repeated that a few times. I'm just sitting here laughing to myself because to you and I, the word wow means something else too, doesn't it?
Kasper De Jonge (01:05:56):
Yeah. World of Warcraft.
Rob Collie (01:05:59):
Yeah. So, have you gotten into Classic?
Kasper De Jonge (01:06:01):
No, no, no. I'm not touching that thing anymore.
Rob Collie (01:06:04):
You're clean. You're clean now.
Kasper De Jonge (01:06:05):
Oh yeah. I've cleaned this for many years.
Rob Collie (01:06:07):
Yeah. I was. I was clean from 2009 to August of last year. And then, I made a deal with my wife. I will give up watching the entire NFL football season in exchange for being allowed to play World of Warcraft Classic two nights a week with my old buddies just as a social outlet. And she was terrified because it's like you're letting that beast back into our lives. But she hates me being gone for football on Sundays.
Rob Collie (01:06:39):
I just disappear for eight hours. She's a football widow. And it's been a positive trade. I've been getting my Warcraft. I've got another rogue. I've been raiding knacks.
Kasper De Jonge (01:06:53):
No. I'm not touching that thing anymore.
Rob Collie (01:06:55):
Yeah. We want you back. Come on, Kasper.
Kasper De Jonge (01:06:58):
Yeah. Adam says the same thing, Adam Saxton.
Rob Collie (01:07:01):
Really? Kasper, first taste is free. Come on, Kasper.
Kasper De Jonge (01:07:05):
Yeah. I know. I know.
Rob Collie (01:07:09):
It's bad.
Kasper De Jonge (01:07:10):
I did grab myself an Xbox. So I'm playing with that.
Rob Collie (01:07:13):
Fine. I mean if you want to play Xbox, a game that you can turn off whenever you want-
Kasper De Jonge (01:07:18):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:07:19):
It doesn't creep into your life. The only way that I can make it work playing two nights a week, this will tell you everything you need to know about World of Warcraft. The only way that I can sustain an entertaining two nights a week of playing is to buy in-game currency on the black market on a regular basis. Two weeks, I've got to go spend 60 bucks on gold. Otherwise, it's a job. You've got to go farm stuff so that you can play those two nights a week. You can't just play. You've got to have the materials. Yeah. It's a beware. Tom, you're about to say something.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:58):
I wanted to be a bit cheeky. I'm looking to blame somebody for something. So, Kasper, are you responsible for giving it the name as your Purview? Was that you?
Kasper De Jonge (01:08:09):
No.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:11):
No? Are you sure? Are you sure that wasn't [crosstalk 01:08:13].
Kasper De Jonge (01:08:13):
I'm very sure.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:14):
Somebody at Microsoft did it. And I plan on asking every employee until I find the person that thought Purview was the go-to market name.
Rob Collie (01:08:23):
What's wrong with Purview? Come on, Tom. Out with it. What's the problem here?
Thomas LaRock (01:08:26):
I feel out of all the possibilities for naming that particular security product, Purview should not be on any short list. Now, we have Microsoft Mesh to go along with the Azure Service Fabric Mesh because if you're going to overload a product name, Mesh is a good one to start with, I guess. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:08:48):
And by the way, Mesh was a previous Microsoft research product that carried that name as well. It was based the forerunner to OneDrive. It was the first peer-to-peer file sharing service that Microsoft put out. They called it Mesh. And we were using it.
Kasper De Jonge (01:09:02):
I saw a tweet by Ray Ozzie about it. I think he was the one who came up with the original.
Rob Collie (01:09:07):
But I think that's right. Yeah.
Kasper De Jonge (01:09:10):
And he said he's on Twitter. Nice name. I like it. I must say in their defense, naming is hard. super hard. I remember in when I was in Power Pivot and I had to come up with names for the buttons or drop downs or, oh my god, it is hard because you do user research. And you ask people. And everyone thinks differently about what names are, what they mean. Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:09:37):
Yeah. If you want proof that naming is hard, just look at all the names Microsoft has chosen over the years. I tell people that Microsoft is amazing at building software. They are the best at building software. And they are bad at basically every other thing.
Rob Collie (01:09:55):
And naming is absolutely one of them. Naming is hard. But also, Tom's right. Naming doesn't have to be quite as hard as Microsoft makes it for themselves. I think there needs to be a new engineering discipline at Microsoft that is just dedicated to naming.
Kasper De Jonge (01:10:11):
You know it's not engineering. It's marketing.
Rob Collie (01:10:13):
But there's marketing within the product. Even the product sort of has to market in a way, market its own buttons to the user. It's a tricky thing. And the same people who are deciding how multi-directional relationships need to flow and how they need to behave, five minutes later, they're being asked to name a button. And it's a hard contact switch.
Kasper De Jonge (01:10:34):
That has changed a lot too in the last couple of years. Before, we had one designer sitting somewhere in the corner who were doing some research. Now that it's completely gone, we have proper design teams. And we have people who actually know what they're doing instead of getting some PM like me who has no idea around this to come on board and to think about naming. Now, we have actual designers who have actually have a design degree to come and do it.
Rob Collie (01:11:00):
I think it shows. I recently upgraded to one of my computers anyway. I did the switch to the new model view. And I feel the arrows on the relationship lines are, now, they're just a little too hard to see whether it's one directional. That block is really big. And the arrow is kind of small. There's still some room.
Kasper De Jonge (01:11:20):
There's lots of feedback already on that one. And that's the good thing though. Yeah. People look into it. And that's I think the good thing. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:11:27):
And you really are on top of this stuff. I am so distant now. It's hard to even imagine a huge chunk of my day. Most of my day is not spent with these tools anymore. It's company stuff that I'm doing most of the time.
Kasper De Jonge (01:11:41):
Yeah. I can imagine.
Rob Collie (01:11:43):
I'm not one of the consultants. The consultants on our team are far more capable than I ever was. And I'm also distant from the software team. I have this weird... This history of being so tightly tied to all of these things, I keep a prize of some of it. But it's just there's no way I can keep up.
Kasper De Jonge (01:11:59):
That's really the fun thing about the role that I'm in and the position that I'm in because I came from the engineering team. I know a lot of the people who were there and built error. So, I have connections with them. I spent time working on projects with them. But now, I spend a lot of time with the community. I see what's going on. We have a huge internal team site over 3000 people from the field who are every day talking to customers.
Kasper De Jonge (01:12:23):
And they're asking questions to the probably a CAT team there. And we're trying to answer. It forces me. Today, I had this question about VNets. I didn't know what VNet was. But I had to go figure it out. What is a VNet and how does it work?
Kasper De Jonge (01:12:37):
But I do not know DAX anymore the way I used to because I haven't really written it. I haven't really done it the way that I used to be able to. It's more superficial and more broad.
Rob Collie (01:12:51):
I sympathize. I'm definitely off peak. My DAX skills are not what they used to be.
Kasper De Jonge (01:12:57):
Yeah. And so, much has changed too.
Rob Collie (01:12:59):
That's true.
Kasper De Jonge (01:13:00):
I have to watch Marco and Alberto's recordings to see what's going on.
Rob Collie (01:13:03):
Yeah. The style of people's formulas has evolved quite a bit. There's actually stylistic variants of how you write DAX. After a while, if you can look at someone's DAX and go, "Oh, I know who wrote this," there's that much personalization in terms of how you go about doing things.
Rob Collie (01:13:22):
And my way of writing DAX is very, very, very straight to the point, straightforward which isn't necessarily the most efficient in terms of how it runs.
Kasper De Jonge (01:13:31):
But often, with the access, this is the way. If you have a certain patterns to solve problems, that's, oh, wait, you're going to go back to the same thing. It's usually the same thing really. Overwriting some filters in a certain way, and that's really what you need to do. And if you need to do some market basket or whatever returning customers, you go online. And you look at some examples. I sometimes come back to your old blogs from 2011. And then-
Rob Collie (01:13:57):
That's true [crosstalk 01:13:58].
Kasper De Jonge (01:13:57):
This is how you did it.
Rob Collie (01:13:58):
Yeah. It is amazing. The power of a DAX pattern is really something to behold. Back when I used to teach classes, I used to tell the Excel crowd this. It's like, "So, if you go on to Google and you search and you find an Excel formula that does something that you didn't know how to do, very often, you don't understand how that Excel formula works."
Rob Collie (01:14:17):
When you're googling something you don't know how to do, almost by definition, you're finding a technique that you don't understand. If that technique happens to just fit your data and fit your existing question perfectly today, you can just copy paste. It's a black box. I don't know how it works. But it works. Of course, then, when the road bends and someone asks a slightly different question as they inevitably will, now, you're exposed because you need to edit that formula to fit this new context in Excel because you don't understand it. you have no idea how to edit it.
Rob Collie (01:14:49):
Beautiful thing about DAX is that you might not understand the pattern just like you did in Excel. But then, when someone asks a different question, all you do is just rearrange the field list. You just drag, drop. And it responds to the new context and answers your question. And it still works.
Rob Collie (01:15:04):
And there are patterns you don't have to understand in order to use them effectively. It's easier and better to steal DAX than it ever was to steal Excel.
Kasper De Jonge (01:15:15):
Yeah. By the way, Rob, have you read a calculation group?
Rob Collie (01:15:18):
I have not.
Kasper De Jonge (01:15:18):
Oh, that's going to blow your mind.
Rob Collie (01:15:21):
Is this essentially like the calculated member or calculated set type of thing?
Kasper De Jonge (01:15:26):
Yeah. From MDX world. It's a fundamental shift on how to write DAX, and the possibilities and things that you can do.
Rob Collie (01:15:34):
So, is this sort of, let's say, I write a measure that is current year-to-date versus prior year-to-date, that's for revenue. And now, I want that same thing, but for-profit margin. Before, I have to copy-paste that whole formula and just change a couple of the base measures in it. This allows me to sort of not play that copy paste game to the end [crosstalk 01:15:58].
Kasper De Jonge (01:15:58):
Exactly. One new function that is the trick it's something called selected measure.
Rob Collie (01:16:02):
I love it.
Kasper De Jonge (01:16:03):
And whatever measure you put into it, you can do whatever you want with it. That's opening up so much different things and so much improvements that we-
Rob Collie (01:16:11):
I love this. This is one of those things like when you layer it on as a sort of the software elegant architect type, we'll look at this and go, "Layering this concept on later a Band-Aid, this is so gross." But really, it's genius because if the DAX language had been built from the very beginning to include this concept, it would have been so much more complex at its base.
Rob Collie (01:16:38):
DAX could have been built to be the new MDX that was this giant learning cliff at the beginning rather than a curve. I would have face planted into that cliff.
Kasper De Jonge (01:16:46):
People tried.
Rob Collie (01:16:47):
Yeah. I know they did. They do. But you can still walk up to it today and write a simple sum. You can write a simple if in the same way that you would write in most cases anyway, the same way that you would write an if in Excel. And that was all the difference in the world for me versus MDX. There is no simple. There's nothing simple.
Kasper De Jonge (01:17:06):
I don't know. I don't agree with that. I mean I used to write MDX too. Actually, we had an interesting discussion yesterday with a lot of the folks like Christine Wade and Chris Webb. I've talked about MDX versus DAX. I mean they're definitely things that were easy there too. And there were patterns there too. But especially being able to use hierarchies. But the biggest problem is before you get there, you have to get your model in such a shape that you can actually do it. It needs to be hierarchical. Your data needs to be in a certain way.
Kasper De Jonge (01:17:35):
You have to define everything and process it. And then, it works. Now, you can write the code.
Rob Collie (01:17:41):
Oh, I think I saw. This might not be the same conversation. But I saw a conversation like this going on, an email distribution list with these people recently, MDX versus DAX. And I wanted to jump in and say, "Oh, my gosh. No." If you're someone that was able to learn MDX in the first place, you are not qualified to speak on how easy it is relative to DAX. I understand that once you know it, there were things that were easier to do in MDX than in DAX.
Rob Collie (01:18:08):
But the whole point that I wanted to make was like, "But I never could learn MDX. I just couldn't even get in the door." I couldn't get into the door to discover that certain things were easier. The fact that I went from not being able to learn MDX to writing a best-selling book on DAX, it's kind of the end of the story in terms of which one's easier. But at the same time, I understand that there are concepts in MDX or facilities in MDX that we miss in DAX.
Rob Collie (01:18:36):
And we're sort of going back, not we. I have nothing to do with it anymore. But we're experiencing this as we sort of go back and we're layering some of those things back in the same way that Excel is a programming language like formulas in Excel or a programming language. But Excel has forever lacked many of the things that we take for granted in "real programming languages." And a lot of those concepts, you sort of see them get layered back in over time with the lambda functions recently and dynamic arrays.
Rob Collie (01:19:06):
It's the inspiration for ideas. But none of those come back and say, "Let's reinvent the Excel grid into something more scary." I think that's good. You maintain that learning curve that you can sort of forever perpetually climb incrementally. That's a really good feature of a lot of Microsoft's platforms. And it's certainly true of DAX. It's true of them. These things are wonders of the world.
Kasper De Jonge (01:19:32):
I think probably the most fun part of working on the Power BI team is being able to talk to people who were never even an IT person. The guys I went to school with or the girls I went to school with and the people I worked with in the beginning as programmers and all these things, the people I meet now, they're just different people. And they're also still there because when you want to write the really big models and IT projects, it's still the same people that we had before.
Kasper De Jonge (01:19:56):
But now, you get people from the left field. They were not working on this. And actually in my team, we have a few. Mark, my manager, he was a finance guy. This is an amazing story. You should probably get him on the show. It will be very entertaining.
Kasper De Jonge (01:20:08):
He comes from a finance background. And he did all these amazing things. And I remember back in 2012 or something, he started talking about power view and the way that you can do things, you can visualize it. And he started changing the way they were running because he was a finance manager at Microsoft. He was doing finance discussions.
Kasper De Jonge (01:20:29):
And he was having these, I mean you've heard the story many times before, the gazillion Excel spreadsheets. And he replaced it with one Purview on top of some data that they've created. I think that's one of the most cool things that we see in the work that I do.
Rob Collie (01:20:44):
And you wouldn't really expect this because I was part of the software engineering team. But that's really me. It's kind of in get shorty, they say to John Travolta, "But you've been a wise guy all your life." And he goes, "Yeah. But I was never that into it." I was not the techie. I'm more into tech than the average person, I suppose. But compared to the average Microsofty, I wasn't the one that had a Windows media PC at home.
Rob Collie (01:21:05):
I wasn't coming in every day saying, "Hey, look at this neat little script that I wrote last night." No. So, for me, I would say that in all the ways that are important, my transformation into an advocate for this stuff and a practitioner of it and all that, is almost exactly the same as Mark's story. They're really the same thing.
Rob Collie (01:21:24):
I am one of those citizen developers that we talked about with Chuck. Like you say, those are the most compelling people to meet and interact with. They're just the most fun and the most gratifying.
Kasper De Jonge (01:21:36):
Yeah. Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:21:36):
I can't get enough of that.
Kasper De Jonge (01:21:37):
I mean the opportunities that you get, you guys have Shannon and Stephanie on the show too. I went with Stephanie to Kenya. I did a week-long Power BI training for the people who work there. And that was just amazing to see the things that they are now able to do. I mean I don't mind that either. But it's not for the shareholders. It's to help pediatric aids. That's a whole different ball game.
Rob Collie (01:22:06):
Yeah. That's not something that on the software team, even though you're the one building the tools that do that for everybody, there's no way you're ever going to get any significant exposure to that real world impact. And that's one of the things that I've really enjoyed about switching to the consulting side of the equation, is that that's basically our whole life now, is living that directly appreciated. We can see the change in people's lives. It's just the emotional component of this job is actually quite a bit more satisfying than building software ever was. And that's a little surprising. But it's indisputable.
Kasper De Jonge (01:22:42):
That also has changed significantly. I remember way back when before we also started the Power BI journey, it would have some tap customers. You remember? And then, he would talk to them a couple of times before the release. And that's about it. But now, we talk to customers all the time. And we have people telling, sharing their stories. And that is I think again one of the really nice things of the things that's going on now. You actually see it way more. And it's more way more practical. And I think that's good.
Rob Collie (01:23:12):
Yeah. And I believe that. I think sort of the shame for the software team is that most of the time, that's going to be talking about the pain points. That's where the attention sort of should be professionally focused, is on the pain points. In the consulting world, they have a pain point to begin with. But we're there for the triumph. We're there for the revolutionary impact. And those are good feel-good stories. But as the product team, you really can't spend a lot of time wallowing in that. You've got to focus on the problems. And so, t's kind of a happier job being on the front lines of it.
Kasper De Jonge (01:23:51):
Actually, I had a discussion with one of my colleagues today who's pretty new on the team. We are the shit-solving team. So, we hear all the problems. And, usually, we cannot do anything about it because we're not the developers ourselves. When you're a PM on the team, and you can get angry and you can walk over to the engineers, you can do something about it. We cannot. And that's sometimes frustrating.
Rob Collie (01:24:17):
Even when you can solve the customer's problem, again, just about the nature of your job, you're not there when it actually gets solved.
Kasper De Jonge (01:24:24):
We won't hear from them anymore when the problem is solved. It's like they drop off because... Yeah. Thank you.
Rob Collie (01:24:30):
That's got to be at times, like a torturous purgatory.
Kasper De Jonge (01:24:34):
It does. Also, we have more ongoing connections with a lot of customers too. We have programs where we spend a lot of time with our customers. And we build better relationships with them. Things have definitely changed. But I totally get to just saying, as a consultant, I used to be a consultant too. It's definitely... Yeah. You see the big change that you can get.
Rob Collie (01:24:58):
When's the last time you played basketball?
Kasper De Jonge (01:25:00):
Well, it's corona. So, no. We're not allowed.
Rob Collie (01:25:03):
You'd totally be allowed to play basketball in the United States. I mean at least here, I mean high school football is still going on.
Kasper De Jonge (01:25:10):
So, I can't even go. It's almost 9:00 PM here in the evening. I'm not allowed to go. We have a curfew.
Rob Collie (01:25:17):
Wow.
Kasper De Jonge (01:25:18):
So, I can't go out.
Rob Collie (01:25:21):
Oh, your chances of going out and ruining your pass fail credit score go down too, don't they?
Kasper De Jonge (01:25:26):
Exactly. So, I was playing basketball every week. I found a really nice team here.
Rob Collie (01:25:31):
So, post-COVID, some point in the distant future when we're all in the same place, me and Kellen versus Kasper and Tom, two-on-two.
Kasper De Jonge (01:25:43):
Sure.
Rob Collie (01:25:43):
Tom's a bit of a ringer. I'm probably the Not probably. I'm definitely the worst of the four of us. I'm not stacking the teams in my favor. I can't stack the teams in my favor because, by definition, I'm always on my team. But that'd be fun. Kellen can play. So can Tom.
Kasper De Jonge (01:26:01):
Thomas is not saying anything.
Rob Collie (01:26:03):
No. We lost him.
Thomas LaRock (01:26:05):
I'm not going to comment. I haven't played in so long. I like hearing Rob just say that I can play. That's all I need right now. But I'm old. I haven't played in a while. And it's not my chair [crosstalk 01:26:19]-
Rob Collie (01:26:19):
Me either.
Thomas LaRock (01:26:19):
... you hear squeaking. It's actually my bones.
Kasper De Jonge (01:26:23):
I didn't play. All the time when I was in Seattle, for some reason, I just couldn't find... I couldn’t go to the gym and play with these pickup games. I just didn't like it. When I come back to Netherlands, we find a nice team. And I started playing again. But I had to work out because if you're not in a good shape, I mean you're going to get in trouble. You get hurt all the time and all these things. So, I got into shape. And I started playing. I mean it's the highlight of my week really, just playing for an hour and a half with the guys. It's just amazing. I love it.
Thomas LaRock (01:26:52):
Yeah. Basketball is fun. I miss it.
Rob Collie (01:26:55):
COVID isn't the reason I'm not playing. I haven't played in six years.
Kasper De Jonge (01:27:00):
I saw something new on ESPN yesterday [inaudible 01:27:04]. It's a combination of basketball and wrestling.
Rob Collie (01:27:07):
Oh really?
Kasper De Jonge (01:27:08):
Yeah. Apparently, it's something new that they're starting doing in Russia.
Thomas LaRock (01:27:13):
Of course.
Rob Collie (01:27:13):
Why would this remind you of me?
Thomas LaRock (01:27:15):
I don't know.
Rob Collie (01:27:19):
Because I cheat?
Thomas LaRock (01:27:22):
I remember the chicken wings.
Rob Collie (01:27:24):
You do the chicken wing. You know what? I didn't even know I did that at all until my friend, Ben, pointed out to me back here in the late '90s that like, "Oh, you're always doing this chicken wing." And then, you brought it up in New Orleans. I'm like, "Yup. Apparently, I'm a chicken wing player." Isn't that a big a position in basketball now? They talk about the wing, right? Is that what I would be, the wing?
Kasper De Jonge (01:27:55):
The wing, no.
Rob Collie (01:27:56):
It's good to talk to you again, Kasper, and good to see you.
Kasper De Jonge (01:27:59):
Yeah. We talk more often.
Rob Collie (01:28:01):
COVID is on the wind down. We'll be seeing you back over on this side of the ocean at some point. There will be in-person conferences again. I believe it.
Kasper De Jonge (01:28:10):
I hope so. I really hope so.
Rob Collie (01:28:12):
There has to be. It's almost like we need a party or a victory lap sort of conference circuit just to compensate for all the time we've spent inside over the past year. I really appreciate you making the time especially in the evening for you.
Kasper De Jonge (01:28:25):
I really enjoyed it.
Rob Collie (01:28:26):
Thank you so much.
Thomas LaRock (01:28:27):
It's good to get caught up.
Rob Collie (01:28:28):
Thank you, guys.
Announcer (01:28:29):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email lukep, L-U-K-E-P@powerpivotpro.com. Have a day to day!
It was an honor to sit down with two of the creators of Power Query, Sid Jayadevan and Miguel Llopis. You get to hear the history of Power Query from their perspective! These guys are so busy it took quite a bit of coordination to get them together to record this episode. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did!
References In This Episode:
Reese's Peanut Butter Cups Old School Commercial
Office Space Jump To Conclusions Hitler Hits A Breaking Point With Tableau PQ Diagram View (Preview) Episode Timeline:
- 4:45 - The Origin of Power Query, and the importance of M
- 19:00 - How the various Microsoft departments come together for a big project
- 30:15 - The many uses of PQ and the Power Platform, error handling in PQ, and some solutions to some common problems
- 53:30 - What's next for PQ and Dataflows
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello Friends, this week's guests are Miguel and Sid, the data integrations team at Microsoft. They were both around and involved when Power Query essentially emerged from the primordial ooze at Microsoft. And that's what this week's episode is mostly about, which is, what is the Power Query origin story? I've long been fascinated by that question as an outsider and observer, since this all happened after I left Microsoft. It's kind of hard to imagine a time when we didn't have Power Query. But there was actually three or four years in there, when we were building DAX data models for clients without benefit of Power Query. And this is where I use my old man voice. Kids these days, they have no idea how easy they have it, back in our day, we didn't have fancy Power Query, you just had to cobble the data together by hand. And so I'm not just fascinated by the origin story here, I'm actually deeply impressed and appreciative, especially as a former software engineer, who knows how challenging it is, just how gorgeous Power Query really is.
Rob Collie (00:01:06):
And because of that, along those lines, during this conversation, I kept trying to get these two gentlemen to take the victory lap. They didn't take that bait, too humble, too cognizant of the work yet to be done, which of course, is really how we would want it, isn't it? Because seriously, it's good to know that there are people like this at Microsoft, who are stewards, really, of our futures. They're the ones building, not just the tools that we already use, but the tools that we're going to use in the future. There are a few places in here where we geek out a little bit as computer scientists, but mostly, the conversation stayed very firmly rooted in the human beings, the human element again, which is what it's all about. I'm sincerely honored that they took two hours out of their busy schedules to spend speaking with me and speaking to you on this podcast. I hope you enjoy it. I hope you learn something from it. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:03):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please.
Announcer (00:02:07):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business, go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:23):
Welcome to the show, Sid and Miguel, how are you today fine gentlemen?
Sid Jayadevan (00:02:27):
Very well, thank you. Many thanks for having us.
Miguel Llopis (00:02:30):
Yeah, doing great, Rob. Thank you so much for having us, it's a pleasure.
Rob Collie (00:02:33):
Seriously, to get a hold of the two of you, and coordinate calendars and make this happen, it's an honor for us. So this was something that almost from the moment we launched the podcast, asking members of our team at P3, what would be interesting topics. One of them that just sort of keeps insistently coming up is where did Power Query come from? And so I was on this mission to hunt down some of the people who could speak to that. And there's a lot of things we can talk about. What are your roles today at Microsoft?
Miguel Llopis (00:03:06):
Sid, do you want to go first?
Sid Jayadevan (00:03:07):
Yep. So I am an engineering manager at Microsoft Manage, the team that works on data integration, with Power Query being one of the key elements, but we have a variety of other things we do with connectors, gateways, data flows, all of which are very symbiotic. Power Query depends on all of those things, and all of those things depend on Power Query. So there's a larger space that we operate within, but Power Query has been around the longest of all of those things.
Rob Collie (00:03:39):
So I didn't know this going in. But I have some complaints about this QuickBooks connector. I'm sure you know what those complaints are too. They will not be ones that you've heard the first time from me making a note of that.
Sid Jayadevan (00:03:55):
No points for guessing.
Rob Collie (00:03:56):
No points. Okay. Miguel, what are your responsibilities today?
Miguel Llopis (00:03:59):
I'm the program manager lead for Power Query, and connectors and data flows. So a bunch of technologies and experiences that Sid was talking about. Been up on the team for quite a while, maybe about the same as Sid, maybe a bit less. He's older than me, so that would show through this interview.
Rob Collie (00:04:17):
Oh, yeah. Well, we're only recording the audio here, you can't really tell.
Miguel Llopis (00:04:22):
I meant from his wisdom, not from the look.
Rob Collie (00:04:24):
Oh, I see.
Sid Jayadevan (00:04:26):
That's Miguel's way of saying I'm Palaeolithic.
Miguel Llopis (00:04:30):
There you go.
Rob Collie (00:04:30):
Oh, yeah. I see. You're also a free range gluten free?
Miguel Llopis (00:04:35):
Of course.
Rob Collie (00:04:39):
So you both go back aways on Power Query specifically. So from my perspective, from outside the company, I left Redmond in 2009. And then I sort of formerly left Microsoft in February of 2010. So I've been formally gone for 11 years, and sort of informally gone for a little longer than that. It's really kind of hard for me to even get back into the before mindset, when we had DAX, and data modeling, and we had the VertiPaq Engine, they're all still so incredibly central to Power BI today. And we had them in the Power Pivot form, we didn't even have SSAS Tabular yet.
Rob Collie (00:05:16):
But we had nothing in this giant void that Power Query came along, to me, basically, out of the blue. I had no advance notice of this. My sources in Redmond, my spies, they hadn't hooked me up with the information that something amazing was coming to come along and complement the tools. There are so many times, guys, seriously so many times where I or we would be working with a client and we would know what the ideal data model would look like. But they couldn't do it because the data that they were getting wasn't in the right format to build the right data model. Even something as simple as you need a lookup table or dimension table, and no one's giving it to you.
Rob Collie (00:05:58):
So it was always like, "Oh, now you need to go find a DBA," that you're either lucky or you're not, you either had one or you didn't. And if you were unlucky, you were just out of luck, there was no recourse. You were just going to have to make these changes to these tables manually. There was no automatic refresh anymore. It was really a tremendous limitation. And then suddenly, and at the time when it first arrived, what was it? The first name? Was it Data Explorer?
Miguel Llopis (00:06:27):
Yes, Data Explorer.
Rob Collie (00:06:30):
Even that initial name sort of conveyed a different mission than what it sort of morphed into. I don't even really remember. It was also a way to connect to lots of different things, wasn't it? And Power Query is today. Were you around when Data Explorer, when that name was chosen? What was behind that?
Miguel Llopis (00:06:46):
Yeah, that would be an interesting story. So actually, just going one step before that, and I think we're getting towards 2012 at this point, I think. The very first incarnation of what today's Power Query in market was something called SQL Azure lab for data exploration. It didn't even have an actual product name, we're going to call it that way. It was SQL Azure Labs was a set of initiatives across the SQL and national teams back in the day to actually a spike different sets of technologies that will help in different segments, like data exploration will be one, data visualization. There were a bunch of things that came out that way.
Miguel Llopis (00:07:22):
It was actually a full cloud based Power Query like experience to actually connect to data, transform data, and then output data in different ways. There's ways to actually get your data out as an all data endpoint that you could use maybe to create an app, maybe to consume from Power Pivot, to your point drop. The feedback back then, and again 2012 was, hey, Pivot is working in Excel, we want these experiences in Excel. So we repivoted all of that, no pun intended with repivoting, towards a client base experience that was actually an Excel add in that we initially released for Excel 2010 and 2013.
Miguel Llopis (00:07:59):
There was quite a bit of naming related discussions, but I think the data exploration aspect, everyone got used to it. So we ended up coming up with Microsoft codename Data Explorer for Excel. That was a very first name for the Excel add in, which later than that, a few months later, as we went into GA, they actually got renamed to Power Query. And really the alignment there was with the power family, the power tools, Power Pivot, Power View, Power Maps back in the day as well. And then Power Query as a way to actually bring data in. Maybe Sid remembers some of these discussions more than me. I know there was also an alternative option, which was Power Import, that really, we went for the term query because it really reinforced the notion of repeatability and refresh ability of those queries, no pun intended.
Sid Jayadevan (00:08:45):
I think we tested many, many terms, and import was just one of them. But we felt like the essence of the product was that ability to query ad hoc and at will, and so we really wanted to focus on that. And so that's how we ended up with the query piece of it.
Rob Collie (00:09:03):
I think Power Query was a great name. Honestly, it didn't really land for me what y'all were giving us when it was still called Data Explorer. That name was actually a very large cognitive obstacle for me, explorer, it sounds like an analysis tool. Now, knowing where the roots were, you had a name, there's a more appropriate name for what you were doing, probably when it was still that Azure Lab thing. But it's so funny, this happens all the time, when your mission pivots, certain parts of it still kind of leak through, like the old name, by default.
Rob Collie (00:09:36):
Just like the old story, whether it's true or not about the railroad tracks being the width that they are because the Romans chariot was that wide. It's just like, what we did yesterday is because we did it that way the day before and whatever. Certain things just have a momentum that carried forward. When the name changed to Power Query, suddenly, I was like, "Oh, okay, this is awesome." But it was Data Explorer, it was just a really cool novelty. I didn't have a sense of its purpose, or I didn't feel like it was a serious tool yet. It's really kind of interesting the power of naming, isn't it?
Sid Jayadevan (00:10:08):
Neither did we, to a large extent, we were trying to find that identity. And I think as we got deeper into it, the query first aspect became a lot clearer.
Rob Collie (00:10:20):
I also think the Power Query versus Power Import, I think the right decision was made there. The repeatability, you know this, but I'm going to say it anyway, if I only get five minutes with an Excel person who's never been exposed to the power platform, I have five minutes and I have to drop their jaw, I'm going to show him Power Query. I'm not going to show them the data model, I can show them DAX. Now, I think that ultimately, you absolutely need to be using both. But Power Query is such an amazing life changer for the Excel crowd and they can immediately appreciate what it's going to do for them.
Rob Collie (00:10:57):
It's harder for them to appreciate what the data model is going to do for them. Which is why, if I've got five minutes, I don't go subtle. Isn't it amazing? You're talking about figuring out your own mission over time, that was something amazing. It sounds like from what you're saying that the M language, and the engine that goes with it, and all the stuff that's really difficult to build and to design, a lot of that was already kind of done before the Excel crowd became a focus. Is that true?
Sid Jayadevan (00:11:28):
Yeah, that's true. Power Query is essentially a visual interface on top of the M language. The M language is absolutely the essence of the product, it's the foundation. And that foundation was built before the product as was often necessary, you need the foundation in place. And there is a long history around M that predates 2012, by let's just say, several years. And we won't delve into all the details, but much like we had to get clear about what Power Query was for and who we were targeting, there was a similar process with M. M was from a technology point of view, this very simple, yet powerful thing, in that it was functional, it composed, in our opinion, reasonably well. And so you could do lots of different things with it. But we wanted to put it in the hands of lots and lots of people who didn't necessarily have not even a programming background, but necessarily a query background.
Sid Jayadevan (00:12:29):
And so that was the goal that we set for ourselves to bring all of those people on board, to make things possible for them that perhaps were a little harder in the past. And so M was really the foundation, and it was well in place CIRCA 2012, we made some changes to make it more friendly to the visual experience, to make it just a little more designer tool friendly, if you will. But the core of the language was already in place. And on the language front, we had tried lots of different things. And many, many people at Microsoft were involved in that effort at many stages.
Rob Collie (00:13:08):
Something you said there really struck me and I wouldn't have thought about it this way until I heard the history. You made some changes, just some almost cosmetic changes to the language to make it more friendly to the visual composer aspect of Power Query. As soon as you said that, I'm like, "Oh, my god, yeah, this tool is super, super, super friendly to being edited and written from a graphical tool." A lot of times, you can go back into the M code and hand edit it and the visual editor is still completely okay. It totally understands what you did. That sort of round trip of hand editing and visual composer, exposing both to the user and still having a language and a tool that survives that duality, that's a challenge. That's a really big challenge. I've tried it multiple times at Microsoft. And I think I'm old for a lifetime on having designed a system that worked like that. So I can certainly appreciate it from a software engineering perspective, even just that one little detail of a language that was already pre built. That's kind of amazing.
Sid Jayadevan (00:14:08):
We're still working on it, it's very much a work in progress. And there are aspects that are a little more, what should I say, language oriented, that remain an M that remain extremely powerful that the visual interface doesn't leverage quite as much.
Rob Collie (00:14:25):
I've been talking to Miguel about this. And it's not just a deep power, but I think the Power Query transform, there should be many more tabs, because the language is so flexible. And I know that not everything can be turned into visual, some things are just absolutely going to forever remain 100% in the realm of I have to hand edit the M. I'm really nothing but a fan here.
Rob Collie (00:14:45):
I told Miguel on a previous call that back in the early 2000s, when I was on the Excel team, and I caught the XML bug. The first feature set that I was a lead program manager for was the XML import and export capabilities. Not the XML file format, but data payloads, invoices or whatever, be able to move those in and out of Excel. And I spent two, four years of my life chasing a dream that I call Data Merge. There are huge, elaborate graphical mock ups of all of this, it was a really ambitious. It's exactly the kind of project you'd expect a young software engineer to get all amped up about and geeked out about.
Rob Collie (00:15:27):
The thing I thought we needed to do was build some sort of repeatable data transformation logic into Excel. And I tried so hard to get budget, to get approval, to get greenlit to build a team to do this. And I got shot down four times a year for multiple years, every quarter, I make another run at it, like, "Come on, let's do this." Now that I've seen what you built, I am so glad that I never got approval to dive into that. Because once I've seen what it looks, a complete solution to it, I realized, oh my gosh, we were so overmatched. We would have never, ever succeeded, never come close. The fact that you had to go build a language first, makes sense to me now in hindsight, but it's really chilling. Oh my gosh, imagine they let me do my passion project. Thank you, Richard McAniff for never believing in me.
Miguel Llopis (00:16:24):
Well, I'm sure you-
Sid Jayadevan (00:16:26):
Yeah, not so sure about that, Rob. You might have done a lot better.
Rob Collie (00:16:30):
I doubt it.
Sid Jayadevan (00:16:31):
[crosstalk 00:16:31] Well, we'll never know.
Rob Collie (00:16:33):
Well, I do, and I wouldn't have it.
Miguel Llopis (00:16:36):
Well, Rob, I think you're being too hard on yourself. We don't have answers to everything. I assume you would have just like us, just fail fast, learn fast, iterate, learn from customers, learn from you, Sid, and just refine and get better over time. Here we are 10 years later, or eight years later, and we still have a lot of things to improve on.
Rob Collie (00:16:56):
It's not even really just about me, it's also that Office doesn't have the right culture, to do something like what you've done. We would have gone and tried to solve a handful of simple cases, that's what would've happened under scheduled pressure. And we would have gotten committed to a system that wasn't elegant at its core. And then we never would have been able to really scale it to address... Because you know how it is, if you address 99% of problems that people have, it doesn't matter, that 1% is still going to plague enough of their workflows, that is the difference between they can adopt your tool or not. You've really got to be complete. We would have never been complete enough. And I can say that with confidence, knowing myself at the time, and also knowing the culture that was around me. We would have never gone and done the right thing, we would have hacked it, and we would have paid the price. And it's not just a question of me not being up to the challenge, just organizationally, we weren't at the right place.
Rob Collie (00:17:48):
Office has really leaned into Power Query, it's a core part of the Excel ribbon now, basically taken over the prime real estate. So I think they're absolutely in on Power Query, and they're absolutely in on the value that it brings. It's just that they're not the right place to have invented it. In the same way that Office wasn't the right place to invent DAX, it's just not what Office does, Office does other things.
Rob Collie (00:18:12):
If I wanted to turn this around and say, the historical struggles of the data side of the house has been that there haven't been traditionally as good at user experiences as Office was. But that gap is really closing, that has become an engineering discipline on your side of the house that it really wasn't when I was there. I used to describe Microsoft as there were user teams and engine teams, and there was no such thing as a team that was both. Office was the user team and the data platform, they built engines. But the engine team couldn't build user experience and the user experience team couldn't build engines. And so I think that's changed a lot. And this is a great example of it.
Sid Jayadevan (00:18:48):
I mean to the point about Office and Excel, one of the things that has been a little different with Power Query is that we've embraced the open source model, perhaps a little bit more than for other products like that. We have the Office team contributing very heavily in our code base, not all aspects. It's the Power Query team that drives the majority of changes, but the Excel team is very, very involved. In fact, if you look at a lot of the developments around Excel on the Mac, the Office team has contributed very heavily to that. And so that ability to have other teams come in and make changes and they've really been a poster child for this on the Excel side, that has helped build Power Query into more of an ecosystem even within Microsoft.
Rob Collie (00:19:38):
I didn't know that actually, I really had no idea that there were Office engineers contributing code. I just sort of naively I guess, assumed it was a one way street. You guys were sending them a build update every now and then and they were ingesting it.
Sid Jayadevan (00:19:51):
And that is fundamentally how it operates because we do want everyone within the larger Microsoft ecosystem to be benefiting from the same enhancements, so there is a build that goes out every month for Excel desktop. But we also have a lot of teams across Microsoft who are contributing in a fairly big way.
Rob Collie (00:20:11):
In terms of, we talked about the M language and all of that. I just told you the story about never getting the chance to do Data Merge on the Office team. I'm really deeply curious about how the M language got greenlit, how did the need for it get recognized and bubbled up into something that they got resources. Because like I just said, it's such a crazy thing. If you haven't experienced the pain of the world, in terms of automatically munging and transforming data, if you haven't experienced it, and most people have it, even at Microsoft, most people haven't experienced that, trying to convey that pain to other people is very, very difficult. I look at Power Query as, look, this is something that the world needed, not just like a demographic, this is something had improved the world. And yet, I know from experience, it's very, very difficult to explain to people who are already on board, what the value is. Is there anything that we can talk about there?
Sid Jayadevan (00:21:06):
Without getting into all of the details, we went through a number of iterations to get to where we are and where it started was with some precursors to M, which were more about modeling, what we set out to do. And there's a large number of people who contributed to this. And so some of this predates some of our contributions. I've been involved with the project on and off, in fact, I left at some point and came back to it. And a lot of the seeds of the project were in modeling related efforts. So ways of modeling your data, modeling your relational data model. And as I guess, in hindsight, could have been expected, folks started to realize that a lot of what you needed to do to have a successful modeling environment was enable transformations as a first class thing. And so at some point, you had a language that was a little bit of data modeling, and a little bit of transformations layered on top of that.
Sid Jayadevan (00:22:12):
And frankly, over time, we talked about how the query thing became more and more important and became the essence of the product. The data modeling side of things faded to some extent, and the focus shifted towards transformation. And it shifted towards transformation of all data. There was a period, not just at Microsoft, but in the industry where very focused on data as not necessarily a silo but homogeneous data stores. And when that heterogeneity of data became a reality that no one was going to change, the focus of tools like ours, and languages like M shifted more towards that ability to embrace all kinds of data, wherever it might live, of course, change the language and give us what we have today.
Rob Collie (00:23:04):
This will show how old I am, there used to be a series of commercials for Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, where two people would be walking along, one of them will be carrying a chocolate bar and one would be carrying an open jar of peanut butter for some inexplicable reason. And they'd bump into each other and the two would accidentally mix. And then they'd accuse each other, "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter." "No, no, you got your peanut butter on my chocolate." And then they would take a bite of it, go, "Oh, my God, this is the best thing." It kind of has that feel to it, doesn't it? The origins of M and Power Query, it's not like there was this anticipated union with some DAX and what we think of as the VertiPaq, Power Query data model. That wasn't a mission statement from the beginning, it's just these two things ended up going together super, super, super well, sort of an accidental union. That's been my sense of it forever. Is that true?
Sid Jayadevan (00:23:53):
I think that's a very fair assessment. Miguel, what do you think?
Miguel Llopis (00:23:59):
Yeah, I tend to agree. I was actually thinking about the previous comment you made about the heterogeneous nature of the data space right now. So yeah, really, when you talk about big data, it's not really only about the volume of data, there's also the variety of data, both in terms of the sources you connect to, the schemas they have, the different keys on either side, and the need to use things like fuzzy matching and mapping tables and whatnot.
Miguel Llopis (00:24:22):
And then lastly, is also about the velocity of the data, there's some data that changes once a day, there's some data that changes once a quarter, there's some data that changes multiple times per second. And so providing tools for non technical users, which is the vast majority of people in the world to actually be able to do this efficiently and with ease and that even for somebody who can do the hard thing, of course, who wants to do the hard thing if you can do it much simple ways. I think that that was key to us and just democratizing this whole problem space and of course, there's a lot more that we can do.
Miguel Llopis (00:24:55):
And thanks, Rob for your list of suggestions from the team. We love those and within our team, we do have this whole bucket of what we call customer law, which is about, "Hey, give us a problem that you've ever tried to solve with Power Query and it didn't actually make the cut for you. And I will try and generalize that and give you a feature out of it." That's how many of our existing transforms came about.
Rob Collie (00:25:17):
It's just such a rich canvas. When you start from a language, you have a lot of future flexibility in what you can do, it's awesome. The heterogeneity thing again, I also really reacted to that, that speaks to me. Another thing that shows my age, I grew up during the peak Cold War between the US and Russia, or NATO and the Warsaw Pact, whatever. And so I read a lot of Tom Clancy and I was one of those kids.
Rob Collie (00:25:44):
Something that really strikes me from that is that the two different philosophies of the 1970s, 1980s, Russian military strategy versus the United States is, you see it in every morning or every day of operations at a United States Air Force Base. Everybody at the Air Force Base, gets out in a big long line, and walks the entire length of the runway, picking up pebbles, and all kinds of foreign objects from the runway, because if any of that gets sucked into the intakes of these really sensitive airplanes there's going to be hell to pay, it's going to break it, it's going to go down. Whereas, the Russians built everything that they had, at least in theory to eat mud.
Rob Collie (00:26:23):
I think the old world of BI was that 1980s American strategy. You had to have this absolute clean room. It's ideal, frictionless circumstances in order for everything to work right, which is, of course, it's completely unrealistic. The real world is dirty, it is noisy. There's chickens running across the runway, it's not just pebbles. Is there even a runway? And this wave of Microsoft tools, the Power BI beating heart, which Power Query is part of it, I mean, it is built for that real world messy, dirty reality. It's not the kind of thing that you imagine when you're sitting around in a whiteboard doing computer science. And when computer science can meet that kind of reality and perform, it's really something to behold. It's just a whole new era, isn't it?
Sid Jayadevan (00:27:16):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's messy and dealing with that messiness is still very much a work in progress. But that's the thing we're trying to embrace, that messiness that isn't going away anytime soon.
Rob Collie (00:27:29):
It only gets messier, even our company.
Miguel Llopis (00:27:31):
But at the same time tools get better and smarter. So how can we actually make it so that it's even easier and easier for you to do these things with Power Query in this case?
Rob Collie (00:27:41):
Yeah. Some of the things that you can start to do with machine learning and AI to write the code for them, there's some scary stuff that can be done there. A no column by example is sort of the most straightforward poster child for that kind of thing. I do want to at least make one joke with you, which is actually the truth but it's funny, is that back when I would teach classes, we still teach a lot of classes, but they don't let me teach them anymore, because I'm not as good as the people on our team. But whenever I bring up M, and I would show people the code, and so we'd using Power Query a little bit, and then I'd show them the code that it was generating. And then I would zoom in on that code. And I'd say, "And this word here at the beginning, tells you everything you need to know about where this thing came from." The first word of every Power Query script being the word let, I just talked about like the messy real world reality.
Rob Collie (00:28:31):
But the word let at the beginning of every Power Query script, tells you this came from the ivory tower. I look at the class and say, "It's almost like a philosopher smoking a pipe, who then says to you, 'Suppose.'" What if we pause it, and then the script starts? Like I said, I admire what M can do. But the M language itself doesn't speak to me in its raw form. I look at it and I kind of want nothing to do personally with editing it. A lot of people, especially on our team, they do, I'm just one of those people that's like, for whatever reason, I was willing and able to learn DAX and I typically don't learn stuff, I don't learn new tool sets, I don't learn new languages. The fact that I learned DAX is really an outlier for me. I'll never learn M, not in its raw form. I'm a button pusher, dyed in the wool.
Sid Jayadevan (00:29:25):
And then we want to cater to all the constituencies, the folks on your team who wanted at the end, we want to make that possible. And for the many folks who would rather press the buttons, for that we have the visual interface.
Rob Collie (00:29:41):
Do you have those personas behind the scenes where you talk about the person who only wants to push buttons, you have the unsophisticated user of M persona. Can we just name it Rob and I'll give you a picture of a me going...
Miguel Llopis (00:29:53):
Actually, I call dibs on that one because I'm that kind of person as well. And that's what I would push for most of the time.
Rob Collie (00:30:00):
Damn it. And you being on the team, you got an inside track to be the persona. All right. Well, listen, I'm waiting in the wings. I'll be your understudy. So how much of the two of you got an exposure to the next part of the chain, which is, do you sit around building Power BI models? Do you write DAX? Do you build data models?
Miguel Llopis (00:30:20):
Yeah, big time. I mean, we use our tools, the tools that we build, we use them internally for for example, understanding how users are using our products or understanding our backgrounds and our feature tracking report, you name it. Not to talk about personal projects, I do have my personal projects with Power Query and Power BI as well for non work related stuff. And that's actually, in my experience of this is, to me has helped me the most actually understand internalize all of the end user pain points around this area and actually push the tool to actually become better. And I know Sid does quite a bit of this as well.
Sid Jayadevan (00:30:57):
Yeah. The entire team does a large amount of eating our own dog food, dog food, and you've heard myself term for this. That's always been a very large part of what we've done. It's not just about using Power Query, it's about using in the context of all of the things that Power Query is hosted within. And so Power BI, of course, and Excel and Power Apps, and aspects of Azure, we try to ensure that we're experiencing the end to end experience as much as possible.
Rob Collie (00:31:29):
It's just a complete divergence from the path we've been on. But I want to at least mention to you before I forget that, in the past seven days, last two work weeks, off and on I've been teaching a little bit of Power Query to a high school football coach. We're just kind of messing around for the moment with a Power BI through a pro bono project. It's just sort of a passion project of mine. I got to tell you, it's fun. This guy's eating it up. He's loving it. I'm showing him how to add error checking and things like that for when there's the temp Excel file still in the folder that he's trying to load from, that's going to mess things up. Well, you could filter that out and everything. And yeah, he sponging it up. It's just cool to see it. It's all these unexpected places, you see these tools end up being used.
Rob Collie (00:32:14):
So both of you seem to have a lot of opportunity to sort of drive the race car that you build. And that was not something that I really felt like I had much chance to do when I was at Microsoft. It's like, we built race cars, we have no idea what it feels like to sit behind the wheel. And so it's always surprising to people that with whatever tool I've been working on, the customers were better at using it than I was. It's nice that there's a little bit more of a culture now of using the tools even for personal use. Personal use is fantastic, there's nothing better than personal use.
Sid Jayadevan (00:32:46):
Absolutely. As Miguel mentioned earlier, it's for both hobbyist projects, pet personal projects, as well as internal day to day work. Love using it for all of those things. And Miguel in particular has I think some soccer things that he probably use it for, but I'll let him speak to that.
Miguel Llopis (00:33:10):
Yeah, definitely soccer as well as a bunch of other things I wouldn't name. Yes, quite a few personal projects.
Rob Collie (00:33:17):
It's really nice of you to call it soccer for us. I'm sure you don't call it soccer with your fellow soccer fans.
Miguel Llopis (00:33:24):
Yeah. You mean with our football fans?
Rob Collie (00:33:24):
Yeah. What are some of the craziest things you've seen? I'm sure that you've got just some really crazy stories of things that you've seen customers doing with Power Query that you never would have expected? Anything like that come to mind?
Miguel Llopis (00:33:37):
Many things. So I guess could take crazy in a couple of dimensions. One could be unrealistic expectations on the tool or the technology. The other one could be tremendously complex projects. So I'll actually head down the second path.
Rob Collie (00:33:53):
Sure. Let's do that.
Miguel Llopis (00:33:54):
I think the biggest Excel workbook with PQ queries I've ever seen, had probably about 280, 290 queries on it. I'm glad we introduced query groups as a feature because that person will be there in the world without them. But even there, it's a pretty heavy to maintain project.
Rob Collie (00:34:13):
And the dependency.
Miguel Llopis (00:34:14):
Yeah, I was going to say understand query dependencies. So you do have some support for that in Excel today with query dependencies. We're working on way more interactive, highly visual experiences that eventually will make their way into Excel. But as of now available in the Power Query online experiences with what we call the Diagram View, which is currently in public preview.
Sid Jayadevan (00:34:35):
290 queries.
Miguel Llopis (00:34:36):
Yep. And they're all legit, that we literally sat together and say, "Let's simplify this." And actually, yeah, it could have combined a few things, but it actually made sense the way he had it organized.
Rob Collie (00:34:47):
And is the endpoint of that data landing in Excel?
Miguel Llopis (00:34:52):
Yes, it was inside an Excel workbook.
Rob Collie (00:34:53):
Wow. Wow. You don't have any examples of people using Power Query or data flows to automate their home? For example, I have a friend of mine right now, who is setting up using Power Automate, he's setting up where if he gets a text notification from a certain Internet of Things system, it will go in and adjust the temperature gauge, the thermostat, turn on heaters, turn on humidifiers, things like that. It's a terrarium, he needs to maintain the balance in this biosphere that he's built. And he's got monitors in there, but all they'll send them or text messages. That's all he can get. But he's like, "No problem, I'll eat those text messages and feed him into the power platform. And next thing, we're adjusting temperatures and humidity and all that kind of stuff." I bet there's a lot of stuff out there like that, it's data transformation but analysis isn't the endpoint. It's being used for something else.
Sid Jayadevan (00:35:54):
We're blown away by a lot of the creativity, seen a lot of these very self regenerative programs that people have created, where the queries adapt and do all kinds of things. It's a ton of creativity.
Rob Collie (00:36:11):
One scenario, and now we're doing the program manager feature design thing. And one scenario that I've wondered about for a while is failures in a Power Query, the error handling. Using the moment of error, harnessing that, and activating a human workflow to address it. The way you're nodding, this is not the first time this idea has come up, right?
Miguel Llopis (00:36:38):
Yeah, I was wondering if I had mentioned some of that stuff to you. Because today, within the Power Query Editor experiences, you do get some help with data profiling features, you understand duplicate values, you understand errors. To some degree at least within the data in the preview that was for you to run that over the entire data set. But nothing really helps you with, after you save that, and you say, "Yeah, refresh this thing every day at 8:00 AM." With understanding if that still is correct, if you get a new outlier value, if you get a new duplicate value, and you get some errors around that. That's one of the areas that we're looking at. And it goes back to the thing we were talking about earlier about, how can we further simplify this tool and make it more productive for the real users of it on a day to day basis. And this is clearly one of those areas. I mean, if you're putting together a report or a dashboard for your boss, you want to make sure that they don't start looking at the wrong data without you even knowing.
Rob Collie (00:37:32):
Oftentimes, it manifests in some very sinister ways. Like if a data source succeeds in refresh, but it feeds you back nothing but zeros. [crosstalk 00:37:42] There's no runtime error. And then, of course, if you saw a report with nothing but zeros on it, you'd notice, you say, "Oh, clearly, this thing's dead." But if those zeros are only one leg of a five leg platform that makes a single metric, the answers you get on your report can still be credible.
Miguel Llopis (00:38:00):
Yes, that is a problem.
Rob Collie (00:38:03):
And I'm speaking from experience, I've been burned by exactly this sort of thing in the past. Even when there's a runtime error, it's almost always a human being that has to go do something. If a duplicate key comes in, that wasn't there before, what do I do about that? I have to-
Miguel Llopis (00:38:19):
Would it be nice if we just fix it for you? Or if we maybe ask you, "We saw an issue and this is what we think you might want to do." And we give you a couple of options. And maybe you don't even have to go to the tool, maybe there's a quick text message you get, maybe somebody is giving you a phone call while you're driving, maybe it's an email that comes in and just with a couple of clicks, you can just get it fixed.
Rob Collie (00:38:41):
This are all good ideas. I like this. This sounds promising.
Sid Jayadevan (00:38:44):
One thing that we recently added in this space was integration with power automate. So that's more on the data flow side. And it's early days for that, but we've already seen some very interesting solutions. One of the things you can now do is have your data flow include a bunch of these reports for issues that you mentioned, you could perhaps partition off the errors or have a bunch of litmus test queries that check the data quality. And if those queries start yielding results, you can fire a power automate that can engage whatever workflow makes the most sense for you. Whether it's sending an email, whether it's writing something out somewhere for someone to take action, going all the way to sending someone a text message. All of those things are possible. They're perhaps not as frictionless and out of the box as they could be, but we're making some of those things more possible.
Rob Collie (00:39:42):
I think that problem of merging the automation with human like referees of the occasional error is probably as ambitious of a problem to address as Power Query was originally. I've got a lot of respect for that problem, placing myself in your shoes. Might not be that quite that ambitious, but it's a large problem. It's a product level problem to solve as opposed to a feature. Every now and then like, I get some data where someone keyed in an exclamation point instead of a one, because their shift key was down, and all hell breaks loose over that exclamation point.
Rob Collie (00:40:24):
You got a hard job, the error tracking in your system, it's many levels deep. We all know the experience of you get the error, and the top 11 errors all say exactly the same thing. And you scroll through the list to get to the one at the bottom that tells you hopefully, what really happened before the downstream errors happened. It's hard to bubble up the right error to the right person at the right time when almost by definition, you don't know, you can't anticipate what this error is going to be, you have no idea what's going to come in. So I recognize this as sort of a frontier for you, but I do not mean to trivialize it at all. It's only an improvement. It's not like you need to do this otherwise, everything you've done is... No, you can stop today completely and Power Query is arguably complete, you just have so many places where you could-
Miguel Llopis (00:41:16):
Go and tell that to Satya, we want to still keep our jobs. Got to find new challenges.
Rob Collie (00:41:20):
Well, next time I talk to Satya, next time he calls me up for advice. Yeah, I think it would be a shame if you did stop. It's a compliment to what you've got, that if you stopped today, it's already well past amazing. I'd say to students and clients that there are two engines at Microsoft, two data engines in particular, that all of Microsoft's competitors wish they had it instead. What are you going to call the DAX and data model VertiPaq. Microsoft is not very good at naming, I don't know if you all know that. And then the other one is the M engine, the Power Query engine, which also by the way, goes nameless in all of your products. It's just get data or import or whatever now, getting transformed.
Miguel Llopis (00:42:03):
It's the M engine and Power Query is the experience.
Rob Collie (00:42:06):
These two engines, wherever you call them, they belong in the software Hall of Fame. I believe that. And this is a very vicious critic of software, who's talking to you right now. I hate software. And these two things, they demand your respect, it's got to feel good to have been involved in something like that from such an early stage. It's got to be one of the most gratifying sorts of experiences for a software engineer because most of the time, it's not like that.
Miguel Llopis (00:42:33):
This is such a tough interview, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:42:36):
To make you guys feel all gushy about yourselves.
Miguel Llopis (00:42:43):
Yeah. Don't know what to say [crosstalk 00:42:44].
Sid Jayadevan (00:42:43):
That's very kind of you.
Rob Collie (00:42:43):
Oh, come on, you've lived it. Right? You've probably also lived as software engineers, you probably lived the other kind of project too. There's all kinds of dead ends in software that you can chase them for years.
Sid Jayadevan (00:42:54):
I think one thing that's been a big differentiator with this one is, so Miguel and I are here today, but there's a team that has stuck together over an extended period of time. And it's the most fun I've had in my time at Microsoft. I'm very, very fortunate to work with those folks. For a problem like this, there is a kind of continuity that becomes necessary to... You talk about the iteration and needing to keep going. And we have a lot of work ahead of us.
Sid Jayadevan (00:43:24):
But the thing that has made this easy and fun, at least from my point of view is the team has been phenomenal. You tend to have a lot of churn on teams, and you go through phases, and people come and go. But this has been one where there's a set of fun. And I'm not talking about a handful of folks, it's probably a few handfuls of folks who really pushed on this over many, many years. I think that's one thing that's been a little different vis-a-vis a lot of other projects, that there's been a set of folks who have stuck with it and have been incredibly passionate about it. And that's been a big part of Power Query.
Miguel Llopis (00:44:02):
Completely agree.
Rob Collie (00:44:03):
Some products really require that kind of continuity in order to continue being successful. Excel, by the way is one of them. I think Excel, I don't really know what it's like today, but when I was there, there was pretty healthy turnover every release on the Excel team. And the developers, the engineers, the actual writing the code, they had a bit more continuity, actually quite a bit more than the program managers. It was every two years, the school bus would drive up, all the program managers we get on, it would leave, new school bus arrives with younger program managers and would drop them off. I got off that bus one day and enjoying the Excel team. And the engineers on the team were just like, "Ah, the new youngsters, we got to train these people now too."
Rob Collie (00:44:55):
It was a year and a half of working on Excel before I stopped coming up with feature ideas, like wouldn't it be cool if Excel could do this. It was a year and a half before I stopped coming up with ideas like that, where they'd look at me and say, "Yeah, we already have that." Honestly, I think that culture, that continuity was enforced more by a handful on the Excel team when I was there, they were keepers of the flame, if you will. And there was like one on the program management team, half a dozen on the dev team.
Sid Jayadevan (00:45:27):
And you have a lot of those projects where you'll have one or two keepers of the flame. And I think what's been unusual with Power Query, at least compared to other projects I've been on is that there have been many, many keepers of the flame. And of course, you want fresh ideas. So you want people to be coming in and bringing those ideas, and we've had a lot of that as well. And so there's been keepers of the flame, there have been challengers of the flame in a very good way. So we've had that mix. But there has been a lot of good cohesion.
Rob Collie (00:45:59):
It sounds a good title for a Kickstarter funded board game, challengers of the flame. I'll tell you what, well, you all get equal rights. We'll call it a common intellectual property, that name. I'm here by seizing 1/3 ownership in Challengers of the Flame, LLC.
Sid Jayadevan (00:46:19):
What was the board game at the end of Office Space, the jump to conclusion board game?
Rob Collie (00:46:28):
I don't actually remember, I've seen that movie so many times. Now, I've got an excuse to go watch it again. Tell my wife, "Listen, this is important. This is for work."
Sid Jayadevan (00:46:38):
That was our quandary, what do you name the thing?
Rob Collie (00:46:43):
So how much commonality is there, I'm assuming a lot, between data flows and the version of the M engine that lives in Power BI?
Miguel Llopis (00:46:55):
Basically is the same engine. So data flows, the way I like to talk about this is layers of the onion. So if you think about the M engine as the core of the onion, then the next wrapper around that is the Power Query experience that allows you to create queries that run in M. Outer layer on top of that is really the data flows, which really automate and orchestrate many different sets Power Query projects that were defined with a Power Query experience to generate M that runs.
Miguel Llopis (00:47:23):
So whereas you could have a data flow that maybe brings say, your customers data, your customers table. Or your customers entity, you may have another data flow that connects to that customers entity and then maybe does a bunch of additional Power Query and M query transformations to do your customers who are most likely to churn. And it's the orchestration of that whenever that customers table gets refreshed, cascade refresh everything else that depends on it. That is what data flows are.
Rob Collie (00:47:55):
That makes sense to me. One of the challenges that I know that Power Query faces is that at tremendous scale, when the data is just gigantic volumes, the elapsed time of a query can get up there. And it's just an optimization thing. It's almost like the ideal software problem to have as engineers. How much progress has been made over the years? I haven't really been paying much attention to it. I just remember from the very early days, people saying, "Okay, it's great, but we can't use it for the 500 million row data set, going through a Power Query, just takes too long." Have there been any strides made? Again, I'm really sympathetic to this, it's a really hard problem. Power Query has to process every single row, it can't do the things like the VertiPaq Engine does where it sort of groups rows into clusters and treats them as one band of rows, you don't get those really nice columnar in memory tricks when you're performing transformations. So you're kind of up against physics in a way.
Miguel Llopis (00:48:56):
Yeah, great point. So there's actually two avenues we can take to answer that question. I'm going to talk about both, I'll just call them out. And then I'll answer the easy one and I'll let Sid answer the hardest one. One is about increasing the scale of what you can process with Power Query. And of course, you need to do that. But on the other extreme, there's also the make it clear to the end user clicking those buttons as Drobo usually does, that there is a problem, and so that they can correct that problem before it actually becomes the root cause for things that are many, many steps further down the pipe.
Miguel Llopis (00:49:29):
And so on this area on making things more clear to users, we're actually introducing quite a few new features. We just announced something called the step folding indicators. So it's a feature we recently launched inside Power Query online, inside data flows that as you connect to a data source, let's say, SQL Server, and you connect to the customers table, and then you apply a filter to maybe say exclude customers in the US, then you get your filter versus they will actually give you a tick next to it to say, "This has actually been pushed down to SQL because SQL can run filters like this one." Now you go to a different operation that does not fold. As a new step, it will actually immediately tell you, "Hey, this thing is no longer when I run in SQL, we're running it locally, we're compensating here, this is what's going to happen. In the extreme, this might actually cause you issues, click here to learn more, learn some best practices for how you could do things be different." And many other features that we're working on there. This is the most basic way to tell the most basic end user about, "Hey, there might be a problem," is like the engine in your car dashboard.
Miguel Llopis (00:50:33):
We're also looking at things like query plans, more detail, deeper information for slightly more advanced users who actually understand the underlying SQL, the underlying code behind it, to go reason about okay, where are actually things going south? How do I understand this better? So I answered the easy part of the question, which is how do we make it clear that there's a problem? Now Sid can talk about the exciting stuff we're doing on the scale.
Sid Jayadevan (00:50:56):
And I'll have, I guess, an unsatisfying, cryptic answer to that, because it's probably our largest area of investment right now. But we don't have anything that we can really announce yet, but it's something we're working on. And that should come as no surprise, because we hear a lot of feedback in the space. And there's a lot going on at Microsoft and in the industry in this space around making compute more available, even if your data lives somewhere where there isn't compute. And so that's something that we will definitely be investing in and that we're actively working on.
Rob Collie (00:51:32):
I actually find that to be a very satisfying answer. Because honestly, all I want to know is that A, people are working on it, and B, there's optimism, there's still improvements to be made. That's all I really need to know. I mean, there's a nerd part of me, it's like, "Okay, come on. How do we do it?" But even then probably, if I got too close to it, I probably go, "Oh, yeah, now we're on board." I'm really just interested in the fact that it's going to happen. Have either of you seen all of these, a meme, but it's a YouTube meme, a format that's Hitler losing his cool, screaming at his generals in the bunker, and the subtitles have been replaced with something completely different? You seen these?
Sid Jayadevan (00:52:15):
Yep, seen those.
Miguel Llopis (00:52:16):
I've not, I'm too young for that.
Rob Collie (00:52:18):
Oh, really? YouTube didn't go and record Hitler in his bunker. I don't know if you know that YouTube is relatively recent invention that probably has happened in your lifetime.
Miguel Llopis (00:52:30):
But I just don't have time to watch it. There's just so many soccer games to go watch. Sorry, football games.
Rob Collie (00:52:36):
Football games. I agree. So I made one of those a long time ago, making fun of Tableau. And in terms of the first three months of its existence it's probably the video that's been watched the most of all the things I've ever done on YouTube. There's a part at the end where he mutters under his breath, he turns to look at his subordinates and say something like, "And if you think we're paying for those Alteryx license, you better be sprucing up your LinkedIn." So as the Power Query folks, I made that joke for you.
Miguel Llopis (00:53:09):
[crosstalk 00:53:09] Geek.
Rob Collie (00:53:10):
There's a lot of inside baseball in that video. Even the Tableau employees that have seen it, look at me say, "Okay, that actually was pretty funny." What's next? What am I not asked about? Such an exciting space with so many opportunities.
Sid Jayadevan (00:53:26):
We have a whole new interface coming in terms of a more diagrammatic visual representation of the queries. Miguel may have alluded to this before. That's a big one, changes the profile of the product quite a bit. We're not taking anything away. And we don't want to make things tricky for people who are familiar with the existing interface so it's strictly additive. But that's one we're really excited about. We've tried a few things there. It is a new interface, but we're also using it as a way to address some of the feedback that people had, just surround how you track relationships and make it a little more fluid to chain things together. So that's one that I think the team's very excited about. So we're going to push that one out pretty soon. And that's already in preview, so you can go play with it.
Rob Collie (00:54:19):
I think I should as one of the absolute sloppiest designers of Power Query scripts in the world. If you ever want examples of really, really, really ugly, I can't believe this Rube Goldberg sequence that someone's written, all you need to do is just ask me for anything that I've done. I've got stuff now that I'm just like, "Okay." I've got four queries that are basically one to one linearly feeding into each other, that their only purpose is to feed the next one. And they're not even sorted in the proper order in the query pane. Even I don't remember which one is the root, I don't remember which one is the first one in the assembly line. Every time I go back and look at I have to re sort of trace, trace, trace, trace. Like, "Okay, that's right. That's how this thing works." You want ugly, I got you covered.
Miguel Llopis (00:55:06):
Yeah, we would love to see those and see what we're reinvesting and actually behaves against that. So yeah, I just sent you a link on the chat window for the Diagram View, would love your feedback on that. Let's you share feedback about every other area. And again, we will take it and we'll generalize it, and we'll make it into something that improves the product.
Rob Collie (00:55:26):
And this poor high school football coach, his first exposure to Power Query is with exactly the example I just told you about. He has no idea how much better it can be.
Sid Jayadevan (00:55:37):
That's cool. You know that ad hoc style of using the product where you don't necessarily architect how your queries come together, in some ways that we want to cater to that even more, we don't want to go in the direction of some very formal modeling exercise. And we want to keep enabling that style of using the product. And so this tool is not meant to police any of that, it's more just to help you understand it better. I have some mashups where I have so many queries, and they could have been designed way, way better. And over the passage of time, a few months later, I look at the thing, and I have no clue what I did, back when I created it. So this is meant to help with those sorts of things. It's more to help you decipher what others did, and sometimes help you decipher what you did.
Rob Collie (00:56:29):
A previous version of you is almost just as inscrutable as another person's work. I can be away from it for two days and come back and go, "What was I doing here?" Same is true, by the way, with spreadsheets, traditional spreadsheets, non DAX spreadsheets. I can generally go back to one of my DAX models, and pretty quickly get back into the personality of what I was doing there. But the old spreadsheets, using just the Excel formula language, and really pushing it to its limit, oh my gosh, those things. I'm always impressed at how smart I must have been in the past to have put one of those together. The current version of me always feels dumber than whatever the version was, that was able to do what I did in Excel back in the day. So, connectors?
Miguel Llopis (00:57:14):
There's a roadmap on connectors, there's some... Overall, our strategy with connectors is one where we have the custom connectors as the key that empowers anyone to build connectors. This could be you building your own connector for whatever you're trying to do. Or this could be an actual ISB company who owns an underlying data source backend, who actually wants to provide connectivity to that from Power BI from Excel. And we do have certification programs around that.
Miguel Llopis (00:57:42):
So really, there's some new connectors coming out of our team, there isn't much in terms of net new connectors. There's a bunch of connectors that our team owns from the early days when we didn't have this way to actually extend our SDK. And there is where you see most of our investments on making sure that X connector now can use this certain new feature that the underlying back end added or that customers are demanding now, more than others.
Miguel Llopis (00:58:09):
So I wouldn't say there's much in terms of excitement there on connectors to cover at this level, is very point wise feature level things on existing stuff, does have experiences, Power Query experiences. So yeah, everything you want to talk about regarding diagram views, or more by example, like experiences infuse AI into the product. On the data flows prompt, we talked a little bit about the refresh base data quality and monitoring stuff, which is actually not formally in our public roadmap. But just because I think the discussion we have, it just screams at, hey, this is actually a useful area that I think is just okay. Those are kind of the big pillars.
Rob Collie (00:58:47):
There was something interesting that as you were talking about the connectors. Of course, Microsoft cannot write connectors for everything, the list of everything is damn near infinite. And reasonable percentage of the time, the systems that I wish there was a connector for is a non Microsoft product that, at best is sort of neutral towards integration with Microsoft technology and other times it's openly hostile to it. And so, at our company, of course, we're Microsoft at its core, we use a lot more Microsoft than other stuff.
Miguel Llopis (00:59:21):
Come on, you don't need to apologize, what else are you using?
Rob Collie (00:59:24):
We use a lot of things. And so like Salesforce is our CRM, and in terms of workflow, it's one of our most central systems. Certainly not our only system. Right off the bat, we've got an alien right in the middle of the story. And we park a lot of data for our own internal BI. And by the way, our internal BI is very, very, very sophisticated today, it's not a stretch to say that we simply could not survive without it. It's not like our business operates and then we use BI to optimize it, it is life support. It's the oxygen supply, it is really, really, really, really critical to us and our business model.
Rob Collie (01:00:07):
So we use another third party product called Stitch, which you've probably heard of that they've written a bunch of connectors essentially, will then dump data into various endpoints that they know about. And so we get a lot of data out of our core systems into the Azure Data Warehouse, so not just Azure SQL, via Stitch, and then Power Query kicks in. It's not like, it just lands there. Gosh, our Google AdWords data, we're grabbing that from Stitch into Azure Data Warehouse.
Rob Collie (01:00:40):
And then because the data that's grabbed... It's so weird, guys. AdWords data is like day to date running totals. So every time you take a snapshot of it, it's like you had three clicks last hour, now you have seven clicks. Does that mean you have 10 clicks today? No, you have seven. So we've got Power Query that is doing a group by and taking the max, or grouping by the most recent timestamp on that day, because Stitch doesn't do anything magical for us, all it does is just raw data dump from one place to another.
Rob Collie (01:01:14):
It's really neat like this, going back to that metaphor of, you want your jet plane built for the reality of the world, with all kinds of noise, and all kinds of variety, and all kinds of unpredictable things. And even without dedicated Power BI connectors, for a lot of our systems, it doesn't matter. We're going to get that data. And the fact that the Microsoft tools participate in this larger ecosystem.
Rob Collie (01:01:39):
I've always been really ambitious about defining sort of the new template for what consulting firms should look like in this new world. It sounds like a cliche, but 11 years ago, I'm sitting in my office one day in Cleveland, and I was using Power Pivot and it just hit me like a thunderbolt. I'd suddenly done something that was not possible. And I'd done it in a space of like an hour that had taken weeks and weeks in the previous world. And I could kind of see that the world was going to change, that the size and duration of a typical project was going to shrink dramatically, still have the same amount of impact as the big long project, in fact, actually better. It's going to have more impact because the short projects means that you're actually holding people's attention long enough to iterate and get the real results that the longer projects never got to because people got too exhausted, and just called it done even when it wasn't. So the size of the average project was going to compress dramatically.
Rob Collie (01:02:37):
So the utilization model for a traditional consulting firm, which has long been like park a handful of people on a six month minimum project. That whole business model was going to die. Now I thought it was going to happen a lot faster than it has, it still hasn't happened, really. We've reached the point where the world is intellectually, agreed that citizen developer model is primary, and is important. But for a long time, that was still heresy. So we've reached the point, we've intellectually accepted that.
Rob Collie (01:03:06):
But that doesn't mean that the real on the ground muscle memory has changed. This has been the mission for 11 years, go and build this firm. However, we never took any investment. It's not like really people who would ever want to fund a consulting startup anyway. Angel investors and venture capitalists, they're always looking for tremendous intellectual property. They don't want people involved. Consulting firm has too many people, it's too good of a deal for too many people. They want something where you can essentially charge rent when it's done. So we wouldn't have really been able to attract that kind of funding anyway. Plus, they would have ruined it if we had taken their money.
Rob Collie (01:03:40):
So we've organically grown, all of our hires, and all of our growth has been funded out of revenue, which makes it slow or slower anyway. But someone told me something a long time ago, which is like, "Let me tell you about my 10 year overnight success. It's not overnight, but it has been 10 years." And I'll be completely honest with you, I think that there's really no limit to how large we can be. It's been a long road, but the way we operate is to run with these tools as fast and as impactfully as they allow. So we're great for the customer. We're great for the customer in a way that I don't think really any other Microsoft partner is. It's a very hard business model. It's obviously the thing that the customer needs. But it's a hard business model to sustain which by the way, we've used the Microsoft platform to make it work internally.
Miguel Llopis (01:04:32):
So you're ceiling, your bottleneck is actually going to be at the very least talent acquisition so that you can scale to more people as you scale to more customers.
Rob Collie (01:04:41):
Yeah. I learned a lot of things at Microsoft about interviewing too. And we're using a lot of systems, we have a lot of actual both software and delegation to assistants and things like that, that allow us to scale. The hard lessons that I learned about interviewing at Microsoft, we apply that at national scale. So we have like a 2% offer rate for our candidates, and we get to pick the best of the best. So I actually don't think we have a supply bottleneck either.
Sid Jayadevan (01:05:13):
That's a lot of interviewing.
Miguel Llopis (01:05:15):
We're hiring. So if you have any pointers, we appreciate them too, both engineering as well as PM.
Rob Collie (01:05:21):
Well, I don't know, that's the kind of consulting fee that I'm going to have to [crosstalk 01:05:27]. I'm going to have to have McKinsey white label me, so that I can charge Microsoft the millions of dollars that they would pay McKinsey, but they would never pay Rob Collie. Definitely, yeah.
Sid Jayadevan (01:05:42):
Very interesting. Fascinating story. I mean, I've watched from afar, but I didn't know many of these details. And so yeah, very helpful.
Rob Collie (01:05:52):
The engineering mindset, I think both of you actually would be really sincerely kind of interested and fascinated by all the things that we've developed and found about how to incentivize the right things with our consultants, for our clients. And there's something almost, it's not patentable, it's not protectable. But there is something in the same way that software has intellectual property, our system are all up system, software, people workflow, all of that. I'm pretty sure this is the only instance in the world like it of a company that operates like this. We've had to discover how to do this rather than there was no template to follow. You guys both know how exciting that kind of problem is. The same sorts of things that get you geeked up about going to work at Microsoft to solve that performance problem or whatever we're talking about, that same itch being scratched, but in a different plane. No, you can't have any of my people, Miguel.
Miguel Llopis (01:06:48):
Good to know.
Sid Jayadevan (01:06:50):
And have you been geographically distributed throughout?
Rob Collie (01:06:53):
Yeah. It was really like 2015 was the first time that I realized I was bringing in the demand for work was exceeding my personal capacity to address it. And it was just me running the website and doing the trainings and doing the consulting up until that point, basically. And I knew that I didn't have time to train up another consultant that could do the work that I was doing, I needed to find someone who was basically ready today. And I knew that I wasn't going to be able to do that, if I was just like, "Let's just find someone in the vicinity of where I currently live."
Rob Collie (01:07:30):
So the very, very, very first candidates, the very, very first interviewing that we did as a company was remote. And the first few people to pass this interview, which again, was designed 100% from my experience interviewing program managers at Microsoft, and especially the fact that I've done it the wrong way for years and then I did it sort of the right way for the last third of my career. The first people to pass it were in all over the country. They were in Oregon, they were in Iowa, they were in Iowa, they were in Alabama, and I was in Ohio.
Rob Collie (01:08:05):
So it's actually something that's really interesting. And I'm almost a little bit bummed about the fact that COVID has rewired everybody this way. Because for a while, I think we'll still have this advantage for a long time in a way, but especially given the nature of the consulting industry that we're in, which is still very in person. When you can hire from any geography, you can afford to be a lot more selective. You just have a bigger denominator. If you want to hold a really, really high quality bar and clear it, you can do that, if you're not geocentric. So in a way, we were kind of forced into behaving optimally from the beginning. It wasn't some fiendish genius plan, like, "Oh, we will be geo distributed, and we will therefore get the best talent, and bahaha." It wasn't like that at all. It's just like, "I need a person and there's no way that I'm going to find one in Cleveland." And all followed from there. So it's really insane. Heck of a journey.
Sid Jayadevan (01:09:09):
It's an amazing success story. And sounds like you guys feel like you're just getting started.
Rob Collie (01:09:16):
And trust me, plenty of failures along the way. I found out somewhere along the way that I actually am not good at running a business. And it's like you find out you're not good at driving a boat and the way you found out is I just crashed it onto a reef. I did that. I almost killed my own baby at one point. And I had to realize that I needed to share the steering wheel. And so the guy whose podcast went live this week Kellan, he's the architect of almost all of these good things I've been talking about. My vision and the things that I wanted to have happen, never ever would have met reality without Kellan to bring them to life.
Rob Collie (01:09:54):
And he was one of the first people to pass the interview. I hired him as a consultant originally. I had no idea that I was hiring my other half at the time. It took a long time for me to come to terms with that. So hard road, lots of humbling, really humbling experiences. Well, guys, I'm sincerely grateful to be able to grab a couple hours of your time. Thanks for doing it.
Miguel Llopis (01:10:16):
Thanks.
Sid Jayadevan (01:10:16):
Thanks for having us.
Announcer (01:10:18):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show, email lukep@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day.
Hugh Millen is a former NFL quarterback and currently a television and radio sports analyst. He's also a data aficionado, whose story is another great example of a unique path that a person with a keen interest in data has taken. He's leveraged that data knowledge and used it to further his NFL career and he applies it daily in his analyst job. Random References In This Episode: Teddy Roosevelt's Man In The Arena Speech The Pale Blue Dot Episode Timeline: * 3:10 - The humble Hugh Millen * 12:40 - Hugh's data origin story heavily involves football and his data knowledge parlayed into big bucks * 28:30 - The impact of data in sports and the parallels of Sports and Business analytics * 57:20 - A discussion about the value of football in society yields some deep and philosophical tangents
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, friends. I'll be honest, what sorts of stereotypes come to mind when I say the words, professional athlete. We'll up the ante and say, what about professional NFL football player? You probably don't think data nerd when you hear those phrases do you? Yet 10 years ago, when I was in Seattle on business visiting Microsoft, I went on this cloak and dagger side mission one night, drove out into the foothills of the Cascade Mountains. It was a very small town, with one stoplight, I parked my car in what was essentially like a logging bar, like a bar where vloggers would hang out and drink at night and that's when I met this week's guest, Hugh Millen. He walked into this joint with a gigantic laptop under his arm, and sat down with his back against the wall, so no one could see what was on his screen.
Rob Collie (00:00:54):
Then, he showed me what was the most amazing spreadsheet I have ever seen. I won't give away what was in that spreadsheet, but I will tell you, this was the first and last time that I've ever seen the arc tan, arctangent function used in the wild. He was the real deal. He was legitimately an NFL star in his day and he loves data and that's why we've been friends for more than a decade now. Whether you're into sports or not, whether you're into football or not, listening to the way his mind works and the conversation that we had about that domain, I think is still incredibly relevant to the things that we do in the business space, and so many times during this conversation, those parallels just kind of jumped off the page at me, I hope you get as much out of it as we did. Tom really enjoyed himself on this one in particular. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:48):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please.
Announcer (00:01:52):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host, Rob Collie and your co host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:10):
Welcome to the show. Hugh Millen, how are you today?
Hugh Millen (00:02:14):
I'm doing real well guys, how are you?
Rob Collie (00:02:17):
Fantastic. This has been sort of a dream of ours for a while to get you on this show and it's an honor to have you here. Seriously, I'm really, really pleased.
Hugh Millen (00:02:24):
Well, thank you. I'm flattered. You're obviously uneducated about my career because you wouldn't make those statements if you do, what a hack I have been through the bulk of my career but I'll take a nice compliment.
Rob Collie (00:02:38):
Yeah, I hear you, so not many people in the world can say that they have competed in anything at the absolute highest levels that the planet has to offer and you have. I love the humility about your career, but one of my favorite sayings, I don't know if you know this, I have repeated a sentence that you said to me years ago. I have repeated it a million times since then to other people.
Hugh Millen (00:03:05):
I didn't know that.
Rob Collie (00:03:06):
I don't know if it's a regular line for you or if you just ... I suspect it's one of your go to lines, but you said to me one time like, "Hey, you know, I might not have the best NFL career or whatever," but then you turn, you looked at me and said, "But you got to beat out an All American for your chance to suck."
Hugh Millen (00:03:23):
Yeah, right. Yeah, you got to beat out an All American in a first round draft pick to get the chance to suck and I've done all three.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:32):
That's awesome.
Hugh Millen (00:03:33):
Yeah, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:03:34):
That's an important ... the reason why I repeat that line to people is because like, I do, I run into people all the time, including myself who are ... People who are executing at whatever it is they do at a relatively high level or sometimes an extremely high level, and you're still going to hit adversity. It's not going to be peaches and cream. So, a lot of people, especially like in our line of work suffer with imposter syndrome. When they hit that adversity, even though that they're actually doing very well, right, they hit something and they hit a failure, they take it very personally and it's like invalidating of their whole narrative, their whole life story. You shouldn't be that way. That's when I tell them the story. It's like, "Look, essentially they have, in our world, they've beaten out the All American or the first round draft pick or whatever and now they've had their chance to suck," right? Okay, fine, but what do we do now, right?
Hugh Millen (00:04:28):
Sure. Right.
Rob Collie (00:04:28):
You got to have perspective and that balance perspective about your background is something that I have immense respect for.
Hugh Millen (00:04:36):
Well, thank you.
Rob Collie (00:04:37):
Most people, they tend to err on one side or the other. Most people will either say, I'm the greatest and I got screwed over or something, right? They'll do everything that they can to rationalize their great self narrative or they will positively trash themselves. It's hard to be in the middle. It's hard to have that perspective. It's hard to balance the two and so, this is one of those little nuggets of wisdom that I like to think that I go around harvesting and I've used that line so many times.
Hugh Millen (00:05:08):
Good. Good. Thank you.
Rob Collie (00:05:10):
I'm enriched.
Hugh Millen (00:05:10):
Yeah. Well, it's a little bit of wisdom. I think, I ... early on I had grown up in Seattle, the University of Washington was my favorite football team. They were the local team and they had played in Rose Bowls prior to me playing for them and in my junior year, we started off, we were eight and O. We beat some good teams. Michigan, for example, in the big house. If you're a college football fan, you kind of know that. They were ranked number two in the country. Anyways, we're ranked number one and then about a month later, I had a really bad first half, weather was a part of it but I just totally stunk and I got benched at halftime and I was getting booed in Husky Stadium, and it was so painful that driving home from the stadium, I pulled off into a Safeway parking lot, a grocery store parking lot and both my arms were folded over on my stomach, and I just was kind of like rocking back and forth.
Hugh Millen (00:06:01):
The pain was in my gut and at that time, one of the inspirational quotes for me was the Teddy Roosevelt, the Man in the Arena.
Rob Collie (00:06:10):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:06:11):
I think it would apply to people in tech world and in all works. It's worth a look, if you can Google it. I don't have the script in front of me, I'd butcher it, so I don't even want to try but the essence of it was, there's few people, who are aspiring to do really great things but there are many people who want to be critics and it's really easy to be a critic or unfortunately, the Bible tells us about the seven deadly sins, pride and envy, particularly envy, I think most people, all of us were afflicted by that a little bit. So a lot of times when you're trying to write this killer code and do something, in whatever profession that you're doing, if you're trying to be a high achiever and really soar, and fly with the Eagles, there's somebody who sees you on the ladder above them and that makes them uneasy, and they want to grab your ankles and pull you down to their miserable level. I wish I didn't have to learn that lesson when I was 20. I don't know how it shaped me.
Rob Collie (00:07:13):
It's a hard thing at that young age in particular.
Hugh Millen (00:07:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:16):
Like you've had the experience of 80,000 people cheering for you, but you've also had the experience of 80,000 people booing you.
Hugh Millen (00:07:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:24):
That is intense.
Hugh Millen (00:07:26):
Yeah, it's tough. You got to be mentally strong and I think just through the adversity, I think for me, I walked on, I didn't get a scholarship until I earned it later, I had to go to a junior college, so it was a circuitous route, even to be a college football player, let alone to the NFL and I tell my kids now who are aspiring quarterbacks, I just said, "You know, looking back on it, I never got discouraged." Even through the elements that discouraged, I might say, "Okay, you tell me ..." and I'm not saying straight to the face but the evidence is that maybe I suck now but that's okay. I'm not going to suck tomorrow, metaphorically.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:01):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:08:01):
I had this vision of, "Okay in 12 months or 18 months or whatever, I'm going to be a different player then and maybe you're right now." I had a coach in my high school, I was all league, led the league and everything, first team all league, kind of honorable mention in all state. So I was a decent high school player, far from any John Elway or aggressively recruited guy, but there was a school, Eastern Washington University, which is Big Sky division two. Not the Washington Huskies or Washington State Cougars that you may know who play in the Pac-12. I'm talking about Eastern Washington. The coach came out, spent the entire day at my high school watching the tape. When I met him after the afternoon, he'd been in there for six hours, he goes well ... he seemed to take glee, looking me right in the eye and say, "You're not the caliber of player we're looking for at Eastern Washington."
Hugh Millen (00:08:49):
He seemed to really like relish saying that to a 17 year old and just kind of twisting the knife. I remember just being ... it stung but I just like, "Okay, maybe you're right now, but you won't be." Anyway, I think we all kind of go through some challenges like that, if we're trying to ... I don't want to say cheap greatness but if you're trying to do something that's competitive and a real challenge, and really be rare in the world, I think that you're going to encounter a lot of those type of setbacks.
Rob Collie (00:09:20):
The Roosevelt thing, it starts off with, "It's not the critic who counts." It's not often that you get Hugh Millen and Brene Brown bingo, in the same conversation. I mean, that's a big theme of her work and it's something that I'm a big believer in, our whole family is a big believer in, like you're going to have naysayers, like our company's business model for instance, and I won't belabor the point. I've said it so many times on this show, but we're doing things right now that a number of people told us, respective people told us was impossible and we had to ignore that, to go do it but the criticism still weighed. I personally still carried those criticisms like I really ... it hurt in a way that people didn't believe, we've proven them wrong now.
Hugh Millen (00:10:10):
Sure. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:10):
Okay, I'm not going to look back on this, with a different perspective than I had at the time, but you and I, we didn't cross paths because of the NFL. I didn't even make my flag football team in intramural college. I actually retired from intramural flag football in college, after a pick six.
Hugh Millen (00:10:31):
You threw the pick six?
Rob Collie (00:10:32):
I caught it.
Hugh Millen (00:10:34):
You went out on glory. Okay.
Rob Collie (00:10:35):
I caught it and I ran out and I just basically like kept running. It's like, leaving on a high note.
Hugh Millen (00:10:41):
You are Bo Jackson and the kingdom, right?
Rob Collie (00:10:43):
That's it, right? Up the tunnel and that was it. My teammates were, "You're just going to score pick six and retire?" I'm like, yeah. That's exactly what I'm going to do. Why would I spoil that?
Hugh Millen (00:10:54):
That's it. Well, your blessings were in other areas.
Rob Collie (00:10:56):
So we've known each other for about 10 years.
Hugh Millen (00:10:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:59):
Another thing that I've always enjoyed about knowing you is that we can take like a year off or even more sometimes without ever talking to one another, and then when we do start talking again, it's like we resume mid sentence.
Hugh Millen (00:11:10):
Yeah, good point. Yeah, and that's what happens with friends, right, is if you can do that, no, yeah, we made that connection, talking about data and you have a unique affinity to data and presentation of data and then also football, and you come out professionally from the data world and you have this interest in football. I come at it professionally from football who had an interest in data. So we kind of somehow met in the middle.
Rob Collie (00:11:38):
So you know that saying that all rappers want to be athletes and all athletes want to be rappers?
Hugh Millen (00:11:44):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:11:44):
I want you to be the beginning of a new trend, where all nerds want to be athletes and all athletes want to be nerds. Can we make that a thing?
Hugh Millen (00:11:53):
I'm a self professed nerd and geek. I call myself that all the time on the sports radio that I do. I don't find it disparaging at all. I'm old enough, I can remember a world without Bill Gates. So nerds were thought to be just kind of interested in things that will never ... help the world or themselves and then all of a sudden, all the tech billionaires came around and nerds and geeks, they say, "Hang on a sec. That nerd might own his own submarine in about 10 years."
Rob Collie (00:12:21):
With or without missiles.
Hugh Millen (00:12:22):
Yeah, right.
Rob Collie (00:12:23):
Yeah, nerds are having a little bit of a moment. I'll give you that. I don't really think that the star athlete has really lost too much luster.
Hugh Millen (00:12:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:12:32):
I think still ... they both retain it. So this is a question I've never actually asked you. When was the first time you discovered your interest in data? What's your data origin story?
Hugh Millen (00:12:44):
Well, I think there was a couple of inflection points probably in that regard. When I was going through a contract negotiation, this would have been 1992 and I was collecting data, I was doing some of the legwork for my agent, Marvin Demoff was my agent at the time who had Dan Marino and John Elway, and he had a lot of high profile athletes, far more accomplished than me but at the time, we were trying to extract the highest contract in the history of the Patriots. So we had to kind of compare all the quarterbacks, the starting quarterbacks and this was back in Lotus 1-2-3.
Rob Collie (00:13:21):
That's okay. We had Mr. Excel on a few episodes back and even he started in Lotus 1-2-3.
Hugh Millen (00:13:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:27):
It's okay, we're beginning.
Hugh Millen (00:13:28):
Right, so it was lotus and ran a couple spreadsheets and a couple rudimentary formulas, and was a friend of mine and he was able to kind of manipulate this data and I kind of slotted myself at about the top of the fourth quadrant of quarterbacks. I mean, I wasn't trying to say, "Hey, look, give me Jim Kelly, Dan Marino money." I was down with the slap ease, but I thought it was pretty cool to be able to that on a home computer, right? I had a home computer, doing other things but I hadn't really got into data. So that would be one area where it kind of planted a seed like, "Hey, you need to acquaint yourself with the powers of a spreadsheet." Well, then once I got into Excel and started to discover its power, it was just so fascinating to me. I would say another point worth mentioning was, I had a job, it was really an avocation, discussing the University of Washington, the Huskies football team on the radio.
Hugh Millen (00:14:25):
There was a point where there was some day where, for whatever reason, as I kind of log the plays by hand, each play, of course, would be a record, right? I was logging the formation and the type of play and the defense and I made a comment, I'm going to butcher the exact details but it's pretty close, I'm going to get it pretty close. For whatever reason, I said, "When the Huskies were on the left hash ..." and this is me on the radio, when the Huskies are on the left hash and they threw an in breaking route to the widest receiver and so, there may have been another variable, but let's just say for the discussion, there was at least three variables. I said those three variables had to be precedent. I said, then the Husky quarterback, his name was Cody Pickett, at the time. I said Pickett had some astronomical success rate. He was ... I said something like that. He was nine for 11 for 175 yards and what have you.
Hugh Millen (00:15:24):
I said, but on all other passes, he was only 12 for 26 or something for 120. So I was able to, mentally just hit me that when those conditions were present, he have had this success, and then it might have been that day of practice or no later than next day. The quarterback coach from the Huskies, comes walking over to me and says, "Hey, tell me that stat you said on the radio about ..." I recited what ... so he was unaware of it and I had just kind of stumbled upon it by chance and I just realized that there's an interest there and at least some domains about the specificity of the data, that the data, it's laying out there before us and maybe to an observer ... maybe it would be like, staring at a chessboard, where you'd say, "Wait a minute, if you just make one move with your knight and another move with a bishop, you got checkmate." You could stare at that chessboard, and you don't see it.
Hugh Millen (00:16:22):
So I think data could be like that, where there's something that's really telling and meaningful to people but unless you have a means of crunching the data and extracting the data, then you might be oblivious to it, like somebody staring at a chessboard unaware of how close you are to success.
Rob Collie (00:16:44):
Yeah, there's two things in there that I want to call out. First of all, something that we say all the time in the business world, is that sooner or later, every individual is going to have a collision, a professional collision with the spreadsheet and at least 15 out of 16 people bounce off of that spreadsheet. You get the hell away from that thing but about one out of 16 at most, one out of 16 human beings, when they collide with the spreadsheet, they stick?
Hugh Millen (00:17:17):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:17:17):
You never know. We call it the data gene. The data gene is what determines whether you stick or bounce.
Hugh Millen (00:17:22):
Really.
Rob Collie (00:17:23):
If you have the data gene, you stick. Data gene is rare. It's not super rare but it's 5% or less'ish of the population and it cuts across every single demographic.
Hugh Millen (00:17:35):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:17:35):
I love that. I can't believe that I've never asked you when that collision happened for you, and it was in a 1992 contract negotiation. How fascinating.
Hugh Millen (00:17:45):
Yeah, right and there's been other things. As I learned it, I had some people that started to rely on me at the station. I'm just like, "Hey, we're running a contest, and we want to have people be able to predict college football games," but they can only do it once per week and they can't use the same team. So now we're getting 10,000 people that are texting in and there's this poor guy that was doing everything manually.
Rob Collie (00:18:14):
That sounds like Luke.
Hugh Millen (00:18:17):
He was just manually sorting and he was spending six hours a week, I'm not kidding.
Rob Collie (00:18:22):
At least.
Hugh Millen (00:18:23):
Yeah, right and I just said, I could take an hour and a half and write you an Excel program or Excel worksheet. program.
Rob Collie (00:18:30):
Yeah, a program. A program is a good word for it.
Hugh Millen (00:18:32):
A workbook, I guess would be the technical because it had several worksheets that all referenced each other.
Rob Collie (00:18:38):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:18:38):
So there was about 10, 12 worksheets within the workbook. If you want to call it program, fine but I guess that would be the most technical way based on my own knowledge of the vernacular.
Rob Collie (00:18:49):
You're correct. Worksheet is the official term. One of the things we always try to highlight on this show is that a spreadsheet itself is an application, we think of Excel as an application but when you create a workbook, a worksheet, whatever, a spreadsheet, you're programming. Even formulas are a form of programming and that thing that you produce, you basically ... you built this guy an app.
Hugh Millen (00:19:12):
Yeah, well, whatever we call it, he was grateful to go from four hours, four to five hours a week down to about 10 minutes. They had to load the data. So I had set out a portion of a week worksheet that he could just dump the raw data and then all the other worksheets reference that. Actually, there was another one with golf. I did at least two or three applications for the radio station and I think Steve Balmer at one point even referenced that in one of his discussions. He was saying ... giving two or three examples of how Microsoft products help in all kinds of strange ways. He says, "Hey, this former NFL quarterback is writing spreadsheets to help a radio show execute their radio contests." I don't know, it's here I say I heard that he had said that.
Rob Collie (00:20:02):
It sounds consistent with the Balmer I know of.
Hugh Millen (00:20:04):
Basically, I've said it many times. I think Excel is the coolest spreadsheet on the planet.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:09):
I was going to say a few things. Hugh, wonderful to meet you.
Hugh Millen (00:20:12):
Yes, likewise. Thank you.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:13):
So glad you and Rob cross paths, so now you and I can cross paths. Although one thing I want to say is, as Patriots fan for many years.
Hugh Millen (00:20:21):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:21):
People always question that. They're like, "Oh, you just like in this ..." I go, "No, no. No, no." I remember Rod Rust. I remember Hugh Millen.
Hugh Millen (00:20:31):
Okay. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:31):
When we logged in, you saw I had Tommy Hudson.
Hugh Millen (00:20:33):
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:34):
This is my youth, Okay?
Hugh Millen (00:20:36):
Yeah. I got it. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:36):
Right?
Hugh Millen (00:20:37):
Sure.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:38):
So, it's an honor to be able to have this conversation with you.
Hugh Millen (00:20:41):
Likewise. Thank you.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:41):
Then, I do a little research and I find out you're a Husky and I'm like, "Well, everybody has to go school somewhere."
Hugh Millen (00:20:48):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:49):
I did, my graduate school was Washington state.
Hugh Millen (00:20:53):
Okay, you're a Coug. Okay and where was your undergrad?
Thomas LaRock (00:20:56):
Merrimack College, north of Boston.
Hugh Millen (00:20:58):
Okay.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:58):
When you mentioned Eastern Washington. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, Cheney. I know where that is"
Hugh Millen (00:21:02):
Cheney, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:02):
No, problem, right?
Hugh Millen (00:21:03):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:03):
Even having this conversation, I'm kind of getting some nostalgia. I'm like, "Ah, I remember all these places and things, but here's the thing I want to get to, is the stats, the level of let's say data in the NFL at that time because you just said, "Hey, I knew I could do this thing in Lotus 1-2-3 in order to leverage it for a contract negotiation," and I have this picture of you walking up to Billy Sullivan, with a spreadsheet and you show it to him and he's probably looking at it and go, what the hell is this thing?
Hugh Millen (00:21:37):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:37):
What does it mean? I'm just wondering, so my first question, did you get the contract, and my second question is what was their reaction when you were using data to make the case at that time?
Hugh Millen (00:21:50):
I made the notebook and pass it on to the agent, because he was going to be doing the negotiation. So to me, I was obviously acting on my own behalf to try and help me. So, I don't know what their reaction was other than second hand and what my agent said is that we made a reasonable case out of it. So I ended up ... yeah, I get the highest contract in the history of the Patriots franchise and they had been around for 33 years. So I think on some level, we'll never know the variables, you can't isolate the variables. I don't know what contract I would have got without that, but presenting them some dat, and again, it wasn't like I was at the top of the league. I was, as I said, probably at about the 75th percentile, I was trying to clock in. So I was trying to be better. There's 28 teams, I was probably trying to be in the top ... barely the top 20. That's probably what I was trying to do. Yeah, it ended up working.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:48):
So I often say this, I don't mean to be disparaging in any way, but I tried to tell people I've been a fan for the Patriots for a long time and when we talk about that era, I remember the season. You guys went six and 10. I call into Ordway Show and I'm like, "Hey, patriots, they could have won 10 games. They should have at least had nine. They should be in the playoffs in Ordway." He was polite, I guess back then but he was like, "No, they're not that good." So the following year, there's a bit of a dip.
Hugh Millen (00:23:18):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:19):
I think you were hurt a little bit as well and of course, Dick MacPherson. That's always a factor. There's the Dick MacPherson factor, but I tell people, without Hugh there is no Drew. Because that one season you had where there was the glimmer of hope that we had the town and the ability to do something when the Sullivans then had to start thinking about selling and everything new and then Parcells comes in. We hit that low spot with Rod and Dick and Parcells comes in and the first thing we do is get a chance to draft somebody to be a potential to be a top level, somebody who's just going to sell tickets. It was a reboot of an entire franchise after 35 years, and it was a fabulous ride.
Hugh Millen (00:24:03):
The 1990 team, that team had gone one and 15 and I was on the Falcons and played the last couple games, so I had some contract offers, I got nine contract offers, but every one of them, other than the Chargers where they said, hey, it's an open competition with three quarterbacks and the Patriots, it was an open competition with two, just me and Tommy Hodson. So they were giving me the best chance but they had been one and 15, the year before and in fact, the NFL Network, they do their top 10 best rivalries, top 10 rookie running backs. They do all these top 10 shows and they did the top 10 worst teams. So obviously, it's naturally the bottom 10 but the top 10 worst teams and the Patriots of 1990 were deemed by the NFL network to be the eighth worst team in the history of football.
Hugh Millen (00:24:51):
I mean, like there's like the Canton Bulldogs and all this stuff. I mean, we're talking about 100 years, Bill Belichick had offered me more money to go to the Browns than the Patriots had and he was the head coach of the Browns at the time, but I wasn't given an opportunity to compete for the starting position. So at one point, I was thinking between the Chargers they had, as I said, a three way competition, Patriots two. Dick MacPherson, as you said and guys, he was a legendary college coach at Syracuse, so he was used to recruiting. I was in the College Hall of Fame at some point. So now he's talking to me. He's trying to recruit me to a one and 15 football team from the year before. He knows that I'm considering some other teams, including the chargers, and I remember him saying, "Okay, you tell me why the Chargers are better for you than the Patriots and don't say the beach."
Hugh Millen (00:25:46):
He was right, that was my best chance. So for us to go six and 10 they were writing articles. Kevin Maddox for example, you know that name. I mean, he was writing ... That was the most exciting season in Foxborough history, just like all of our games were close. We beat the Bills, they were 11 and one and we lost some other games right down to the last minute. I think we had like four 4th quarter wins out of the six. So it was based on having been won in 15, the six and 10 was good and then the next year, yeah, I hurt myself in the first quarter of the first game. Seventh play of the season. Separated my shoulder. We went two and 14 and then everybody got it out of there. As you said, that was Parcells, he came in and as did Bledsoe and I was out.
Thomas LaRock (00:26:27):
So, also, all the things that we shared, not just the Washington History and Patriots but Dick MacPherson. I just laughed. I'm like, "That's right. He played for Dick MacPherson." You mentioned him as a recruiter. Dick MacPherson came to my high school, I was playing a basketball game, he was there to recruit, a visiting player by the name of Mark Chimera and he sat in the bleachers next to my grandfather, who they chatted each other up for the entire game. I just kept looking at the stands like, what are they talking to each other about? Who do they possibly have in common? Yeah, Dick MacPherson in my gym and I always laugh about it to this day and I think he was ... obviously he was still with Syracuse, but he was on his way out the door. He was trying to get mark before he went to Boston College, but he was on his way out the door heading to the Patriots, I think already.
Hugh Millen (00:27:16):
Well, I can say with sincerity, if you ask me, okay, the most beloved person I've ever known and it's okay, well, what does beloved mean. The highest number of people that could respond, that they view Dick MacPherson or anybody so affectionately, that they could describe it as they ... without knowing the person, they feel like they love the person, find some reasonable definition of beloved and it's quite possible that he's the most beloved person I've ever known. Now, Don James for whom I played in University of Washington, he's in the Hall of Fame as well and he was immensely respected, but he wasn't beloved like Dick MacPherson. I have great affection for the man, Dick MacPherson. I can't imagine anybody who was ever sideways with Dick MacPherson. Not much to do with data guys, but that's a trip down memory lane. Yeah,
Rob Collie (00:28:07):
I did want to get this in relatively early. If people who are listening, they're like, "Ah, are they turning our data podcast into sports talk retrospective?" No, it's certainly spicy, right? It's very interesting and we're going to season the conversation appropriately. One of the things that I want to bring front and center very early is, why are we so fascinated, why does sports analysis ... when it comes to data, why does sports come up so often and why is it relevant to talk about sports data and sports analytics, to a business person? Not everyone that listens to this podcast is a sports fan, but everyone listens to this podcast as a data fan in some form or another, right, in a professional sense. Why is it and I believe that it is, I believe that talking about sports analytics is actually an incredibly powerful sort of learning tool. Even if you're never going to perform sports analytics, if all you're going to be doing is business analytics.
Rob Collie (00:29:10):
First of all, the data is public. The data is public. The data is shared. There aren't many data sources that you can crunch on, that are both interesting and have relatively high stakes. There's a lot of money on the line, at least for the organizations involved. There's a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure to succeed, and data is public. Every last play of an NFL game or any football game for that matter is now recorded from 18 different camera angles is dissected every which way, like there's nothing ... on the surface anyway, there's nothing hidden. All the data is out there. It's like a freaking public domain. We don't have too many things like that. The number of COVID dashboards that have sprung up in our community over the last year. I mean, it's like there's almost more COVID dashboards than there are COVID cases.
Rob Collie (00:30:02):
I think it's the same thing, right? It's a public dataset, relatively public anyway, with consequences. If you've ever been interested in the COVID dashboard, you might as well be interested in the sports dashboard, even if you're not into sports, like I'm not into catching viruses either.
Hugh Millen (00:30:16):
Yeah. Imagine a sports world without statistics. Sports world without statistics, you never knew that Joe DiMaggio had a 56 game hitting spree. How do you even compare the completion percentage of the passer rating? What's Michael Jordan's scoring average? It's almost like you wouldn't even enjoy the entire world of sports. You referenced music earlier. Okay, I don't think you need statistics to enjoy music. If you like The Rolling Stones, now you might tabulate how many albums they have, or the Beatles or something or songs that made number one, but I don't think that that's central to the enjoyment of it, but I almost feel like, if you didn't have statistics, it would be far less interesting if you weren't aware of how the teams and how the players are doing and to that end, after an NFL game, for example, they have what's called an NFL game summary. They have very capable statisticians that are logging these plays.
Hugh Millen (00:31:19):
Obviously, there's an application there that's sorting out the statistics, within 12 minutes of the game being over, they have a 17 page game summary of all statistics.
Rob Collie (00:31:32):
Yeah. It's crazy.
Hugh Millen (00:31:33):
Almost an on ... play by summary there, but of the 17 pages on average, there's 12 or 13 of them are stats. So yeah, you're right, it's difficult to conceive of sports without statistics.
Rob Collie (00:31:47):
Well, when you think about it, and I only think about it now because of what you said, even who wins is a question of statistics. It's a number on a scoreboard.
Hugh Millen (00:31:57):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:31:57):
It determines who wins, right? Someone, somewhere decided that a field goal is worth three points and touchdowns is worth six and all of this, right? Those are coefficients. It's a it's a weighted average of your performance, right? If we decided that field goals were worth five, it changes the whole game.
Hugh Millen (00:32:12):
Yeah, yeah. Excellent point. I just think that being able to comment for me to comment on the radio, to find reflection, for example, we're out here in Seattle where Russell Wilson is an all pro level quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks. Most people think he's bound for the Hall of Fame. He had a really tough year in the second half of the year. So just yesterday, I was on the radio, so the end game is ... and this is kind of typical how I use data. I say, okay, I start with a question that can be asked in plain English, without any statistic. I want to know where the Seattle Seahawks is more aggressive in terms of their propensity to throw the football, were they more aggressive in the first half of the season, versus the second half of the season. Okay now, how do I determine a reasonable way to measure that?
Hugh Millen (00:33:07):
Well, it's easy to just take the entire data of all plays and say, "Okay, this is the run percentages. This is their past percentage, right?" Because every play is either a run or a pass so we have that aspect, but a lot of times teams when they're ahead, the better teams, they're trying to kill the clock, they're more likely to run or teams at the end of the second quarter, if you happen to have a drive at the end of the second quarter, you might have nine straight pass plays. Well, that can skew things. So there's these elements, so it was pretty crude but what I said was okay, I'm going to go the first and third quarters, because that eliminates the second and fourth quarter, the second quarter can have those two minutes situations that I described. Fourth quarter, if you're behind, you're going to throw it all the time, if you're ahead, you're far more likely to run.
Hugh Millen (00:33:53):
So I said, first and third quarter. Now, I also wanted to eliminate third down because third down is a down that, if it's third and long, you're more likely to throw it. If it's third in the yard, you're more likely to run it, whatever. So I want to eliminate third down. So really the neutral down, so I said let's go first and second down and then, let's go yards to gain between two and 10 because if I do that, I'm picking up all first and 10s and I'm picking up all second and two to 10s, so I'm eliminating second and 15s when you had a sack or penalty or something. So, it was a roughly crude way to do it. Well, as it turns out the Seahawks in the first half of the season, they were second in the NFL in terms of their pass propensity, pass-run ratio, Second only to the Kansas City Chiefs who were the world champions at the time. They're not the world champions now, but you get my point.
Rob Collie (00:34:45):
Yup.
Hugh Millen (00:34:47):
In the second half of this season, they fell to 18. So that's something that's meaningful enough that I can take that to the radio. It's just simple crunches. It's under three, four minutes. Three minutes, I can ascertain all this and then I can decide is that something that's compelling enough to present to a radio audience? Well, in my estimation, it was.
Rob Collie (00:35:10):
It sounds good to me. Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:35:11):
Yeah, if you lay out a reasonable standard that would define what you're searching for, because when numbers interact, you get these rankings, right? You're going to be second place and 18th. Had it been ninth and 11th, I wouldn't have taken it to the radio but the numbers ... so you've got to think through, okay, feed these numbers that are binary in the equation and then try and glean some data that's meaningful.
Rob Collie (00:35:36):
So if you're listening, and you're not into football, let me kind of break that down for you a little bit. You just heard a human being who used to get paid millions of dollars to play football, go through an analysis where he compensates for and filters out all the external variables that would confuse the hypothesis, right, and dial out the situations. So basically, like we could sort of talk about ... you got down to the situations, you filter down to the situations where the Seahawks faced neutral situations. Situations where the external variables don't indicate strongly that they should do one thing or another.
Hugh Millen (00:36:20):
Correct.
Rob Collie (00:36:21):
In order to find out what they did when they sort of had a choice.
Hugh Millen (00:36:24):
Correct. That's exactly right. That's better stated, yup.
Rob Collie (00:36:27):
We call this ... for lack of a better term, we call this fair metrics at our company. The top level metrics for a business or a sports team, they sort of like appear at the bottom line, are so conflated, they're so confused with so many other external variables, that you can't use them to make decisions most of the time, right? You've got to do something like what you just did. You've got to develop the more fair metric, right? There are versions of this running around, I'm sure but we could try to trademark one now and call it like neutral situation tendency rank, dropped from second to 18th in terms of their decision making.
Hugh Millen (00:37:04):
Yeah. Now, if I'm going to confess and this is something that I'm assuming, if you're listening to this podcast, you have a keen interest in data. Now, I'm going to have to bring up a little topic that all of us who work in data have to confront, which is I also ran the data with all the variables I just described, and I ran it when the score was plus or minus eight points, meaning within a touchdown either way, because of touchdown two point conversion.
Rob Collie (00:37:35):
Yup.
Hugh Millen (00:37:36):
The data there was the Seahawks were number one in the first half of the season, but only fell to like, I don't have it in front of me, it's like number seven. So now, it doesn't sound like as drastic of a drop. Yeah, there's almost a moral dilemma to me because we all know that we can find ... if we're looking for a conclusion, we can scour the data enough and we can lock onto the one and say, "Aha, that's the one," now it's factual.
Rob Collie (00:38:11):
It is.
Hugh Millen (00:38:12):
I would never use false information, but is there an obligation we have morally to disclose the fact that hey ... and in fact, I will do that. I will say ... from time to time, I will just say, "Look, I thought I had this hypothesis, I ran the numbers and actually didn't pair out," and I will confess to that but there's other times where I kind of like, "Hey, I run the numbers. Yeah, it didn't really support my ..." and I'll rerun them in some other way that changes it. "Okay, I like that number. That's going to sound better on the radio." I would imagine that Rob, certainly, you've encountered that, where you ran the number, it didn't come up to the results you wanted and let me try and run it a different way, right?
Rob Collie (00:38:59):
Back in the day, we've even been fired for giving the conclusion to the client that they didn't want. It's like, we don't really have those kinds of clients anymore but nearly going, we did have a couple it, apparently hired us just to help support their original hypothesis but never told us that.
Hugh Millen (00:39:17):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:39:17):
Let's keep going on that exact example you talked about, I think this is both very interesting and also it reflects the integrity and the curiosity that I think you really need to bring to anything like this. So when you become more specific, and you're dialing out ... so what you're saying is like, in one analysis, I removed ... I controlled for essentially, some number of external factors and in that analysis, they dropped from second to 18th. Okay, but then I added an additional external factor that I controlled for, so I became even more specific and the Delta isn't as large in terms of their ranking drop there. Now, of course, at the same time, you've also reduced your sample size by filtering down further, you're now looking get fewer and fewer plays and I think it's in the book Fooled By Randomness that talks about this college professor in statistics, who starts every semester by challenging the entire class to like a duel.
Rob Collie (00:40:13):
It says okay, "We're going to randomly ..." and I won't know which 50% is which 50%, "We're going to randomly assign half the class to flip a coin 30 times and record the results factually," and the other half of the class gets to or has to fake it. They've got to write down 30 coin flips, as if it was fake.
Hugh Millen (00:40:39):
I know how you differentiate. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:40:41):
Yeah and the class knows, obviously, who was who but he doesn't. Then, they all turn them in and he just very confidently goes through them, and puts them in the, "You were real, you were fake. You were real, you were fake," and just nails it overwhelmingly. The reason he can do this is because in reality, there's always going to be some really improbable sequence of consecutive heads or tails. It's going to happen, you're going to get five in a row, and a human being would never believe that, right? So when they're doing it, if they've got three or four in a row, if they've got even three in a row, they pretty quickly flip back to the other one, right?
Hugh Millen (00:41:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:20):
The point there is, is that as you get to smaller and smaller sample sizes, there's going to be something compelling. That jumps off the page or potentially anyway. You can't trust the small numbers, right? So, it might be that your theory ... I agree that like falling from second to 18th, that's a compelling narrative. First to seventh isn't so much, but at the same time ...
Hugh Millen (00:41:45):
If there's 32 teams, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:47):
It might be, that's a good point, right? People don't really necessarily know how many teams are there.
Hugh Millen (00:41:49):
Yeah, if there's like 500 teams then.
Rob Collie (00:41:52):
Yeah, it's definitely not. It might be that what you're discovering was still holding up really well. It's just that with a smaller sample size, you got the Fooled by Randomness thing sort of compensated the other way. Furthermore, there might be a huge difference between first and seventh. What if teams seven through 32 are all clustered like together in one clump of tendencies?
Hugh Millen (00:42:15):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:42:15):
And there's a really sharp slope from one to six. It could still be a huge difference, right?
Hugh Millen (00:42:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:42:23):
Look at this, even this one thing you're talking about is so fascinating, like you can just like really just dive into it.
Hugh Millen (00:42:31):
Yeah, but then you got to be knowledgeable of your audience.
Rob Collie (00:42:34):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:42:35):
And know that they can handle some statistics but you can't get too dry. It's got to be something that, for me to start citing statistics, it's got to be comprehensible and it's got to tell a real meaningful story. I've got to feel like I've accomplished something by presenting data.
Rob Collie (00:42:57):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:42:58):
It's usually you're buttressing your argument, you mentioned that you ... the ever present availability of the statistics, if you take some quarterback, let's say whether it's Ryan Fitzpatrick or Josh Allen or Deshaun, Watson and I've just mentioned a guy who's close to average, and then two guys that are pretty damn good but not at the almost at the top of the NFL. I'm pretty confident that if I wanted to pick one of those quarterbacks, and I really wanted to steer it towards a narrative, I could come up with enough data and really compelling sounding data that would make those guys either ... for example, Josh Allen, quarterback of the Bills, I could probably come up and say, make an argument, he's as good as anybody in the NFL or I could probably find data, if I wanted to push the narrative that he's just average. He's dead middle. I could probably find data. Now, most people, would just say, "Hey, look, I've watched the guy play."
Hugh Millen (00:44:02):
"He's ... for this most recent years, he's in the top five," but you'd be surprised how compelling you could present a statistical encapsulation of guys and so data can be really powerful.
Rob Collie (00:44:16):
Yeah, I think NFL GMs are wise to that today, whether they're data savvy or not, they know that the data can be used to paint one story or the other, so they know that it's sort discounted if it comes from a slanted source, a potentially biased source, but in 1992 they were defenseless.
Hugh Millen (00:44:33):
Yes. It's like, what is this? What?
Rob Collie (00:44:40):
Give them the money.
Hugh Millen (00:44:42):
You know what's funny on the front page ... so the team never supposed to know that I did it, right? I took some clip art. Remember the clip art? Remember clip art? Remember now, this is 1992. So we got some clip art of like a referee holding his hands up like touchdown, like some subliminal message like, "Hey, as a sign of humility, you're going to get more touchdowns," which the statistics actually didn't bear that out but maybe the clip art would, right? I remember the agent kind of like ... he goes, "I don't know about the clip art," and he goes, "Ah, we'll just leave it in." It's like he had bigger fish to fry than me and he had bigger fish to fry than trying to take out the referee in his raised arms but 27 years old and you're new to computers or ... computer is in evolving stage, you do silly stuff like that, right?
Rob Collie (00:45:26):
They were defenseless. We're known some circles as the stick figure people of data. We use a lot of clip art. Tasteful, tasteful clip art
Hugh Millen (00:45:36):
Yeah, right. Good action. Well, yeah, we've come a long way.
Rob Collie (00:45:42):
When you're talking about, you've got to be careful to still be compelling to your audience, there's a parallel there in the business world as well. Think of it this way, you're one of the 5% of sports people, fans or industry figures, whatever 5% of people who are interested in sports, who have the data gene. So when you get on the air, you've got to be cognizant of that 95% that only have a certain amount of attention span for it, they're not as interested in it as you are and you can't make the mistake of thinking that everyone else is as interested in this stuff and is willing to kind of like Rainman it with you.
Hugh Millen (00:46:20):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:46:20):
That you will and that's true in business. The 5%, people who are running around in business with the data gene, aren't typically running things. So not only are they outnumbered like 19 to one in their organizations, the people who outrank them tend to be in the 19. Even more than statistics would indicate.
Hugh Millen (00:46:42):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:46:43):
So, we have to be relevant. We have to be digestible. We have to be actionable. All those things you talk about, that you go into when you're performing your analysis before you slide up to the microphone, that is 100% true in the business world as well and like, there are many, many, many stories of heck, even my own personal experience with this stuff, where I kind of overestimated how interested the audience was, and ended up kind of alienating them accidentally in the process, and therefore losing our opportunity to find something meaningful because like, they kind of became less interested in data as a result of me being a little tone deaf. I've learned a lot over the years, I don't think I'm nearly as likely to repeat that mistake, as I was like in the earliest days of this, but it's a road all of us have to walk.
Hugh Millen (00:47:35):
So what we don't want to do is try and impress the audience, by the fact, "Hey, look, I know how to manipulate data and I can write a spreadsheet with formulas that are three lines long." Well, we want to say what's the end game? The end game is the data should be illuminating and it should be like, the numbers supporting an argument that you can speak with words. Does that make sense? It's like, think of the SAT. You've got the verbal portion and the math portion, right? So in that analogy, we're making arguments that can be structured merely in words and then we bring in the math, and we try and make it as simple as possible to then augment the argument that we're making with the words only. Does that make sense? So, I could talk real fast on the radio and I could start seeing data and use some of the vernacular within Excel and confuse the hell out of people, right?
Hugh Millen (00:48:37):
Some people say, "Oh, boy, he sounds really smart. He lost me." That's not the end game. I am willing to have people say that I'm hard to understand in terms of the schemes that I'm presenting but I try all the time to really dumb it down. For example, in football, there's a defense called cover three. It's a three deep zone, that may or may not mean much to you. Then, what I'll do is say, think of it like this, think if you got four defensive lineman and rushing the quarterback. Okay, now we're down to seven guys. Now, think of like a baseball outfield, you've got the infielders, you got the third baseman, the shortstop, the second baseman the first baseman, because I know people in their minds eye. If they're listening to sports radio, they can do that. You can imagine okay, you're hovering over home plate and you're looking out at the baseball defense and then you've got the left field or the center field and right field.
Hugh Millen (00:49:31):
I said, a 3D zone defense is really similar to that. You got four guys underneath. They're like your infielder, they're the guys closest to the line scrimmage and then the three guys that are in the deep layer, they're like the outfield. Where's the vulnerability in baseball? Where do you get the big hits? Well, you hit him in the gap between the left fielder and the centerfielder and we have past routes that can kind of hit that area. We call them skinny post and deep in routes. Then there's also, you can hit it double down the line, okay, to the outside of the outfielders. We call those corner routes and comebacks and what have and those are the sidelines. So I'll take the time to stop and I'll describe something I'd figure that most people don't know about.
Rob Collie (00:50:13):
I love that.
Hugh Millen (00:50:14):
I'll try and describe it in a way where it's a cover too. Imagine if you were a soccer goalie, you're going to do what? You're going to just stand in the middle of the goalpost, right? Now imagine just for a second that the rules of soccer allowed us to have two goalies? Let's say Thomas, you and I are allowed to be the goalies. All right.
Rob Collie (00:50:35):
Can I jump in for a moment?
Hugh Millen (00:50:36):
Yeah, please.
Rob Collie (00:50:37):
If I come up on a soccer goal, I'm supposed to score and I see Hugh Millen and Tom standing there, I'm going to kick it at Tom every time.
Hugh Millen (00:50:43):
Yeah, go for Tom. Yeah, go for Tom. What's up with that Tom? You didn't deserve that. Okay, I'll say imagine in soccer, if they said for, let's say half of a game, that they're going to allow two goalies. Well, how would you and, Tom would stand. Well, logic would dictate that we'd stand in a way, we kind of dissect each half, right? So that if Rob had some killer thunder foot shot, right down the middle, right between us, he could beat us that way, or a killer thunder foot shot right next to the goal post. That's how we're going to space ourselves so that's where our vulnerability is going to be. Well, that's like a cover two defense. You got a safety on each half of the field and there is a vulnerability right down the middle and there's a vulnerability all the way deep on the sidelines.
Hugh Millen (00:51:34):
So, I'll constantly try and think of ways to describe things and then, use the data with ... in my mind, a lot of discernment whether it's comprehensible because I also have to think of this, I'm talking to people who are driving to their meeting or driving home and they're thinking about their day. They're not sitting in earnest, listening at the desk with nothing else going on, perhaps. So I got to take all of that into account, but getting back to the data portion of it, there's kind of a barometer that I run through on whether I'm going to present the data. Is it comprehensible and does it fulfill some objective of I'm trying to get from point A to point B. I'm trying to be persuasive. Usually, I'm trying to be persuasive. I'm giving you my take, and I'm trying to get you to agree with my take and I'm trying to give a strong take. So, if I'm introducing data, it's in an effort to have a stronger take, it's really what it is
Rob Collie (00:52:35):
That thing were used to sort of dumb down, what cover three is.
Hugh Millen (00:52:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:52:40):
I think that's it's just like, "Ah, that's doing God's work, in my opinion." Dumbing things down and getting through all the jargon is so valuable in any domain. I was just sitting here, I was listening to you, going like, "Oh my God, we should do a podcast called like football dumb down" or something like that.
Hugh Millen (00:52:59):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:00):
If you heard the story, it's actually an interview, where he's speaking at a dinner or something. Brett Favre talk about the Nickel Defense with Holmgren
Hugh Millen (00:53:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:09):
Have you heard that?
Hugh Millen (00:53:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:10):
He, Brett Favre was like three years into his NFL career and didn't know what a nickel defense was. I mean, it doesn't matter whether you know what a nickel defense is or not, it doesn't matter. Brett Favre didn't know, right? When he finally got, what was it like Ty Detmer to explain it to him.
Hugh Millen (00:53:28):
Yeah. Yeah, you got it.
Rob Collie (00:53:29):
Ty Detmer said the nickel defense is when like they take out a linebacker and put in another defensive back. Favre goes, "That's it? Who gives a shit?"
Hugh Millen (00:53:38):
Yeah, that's it. You got it exactly right. Yeah, so he make ... so they set the standards for DBs, you bring in one more guy defensive back that is and it makes the fifth, hence nickel, five, right?
Rob Collie (00:53:51):
It's like the old Chris Rock joke when he's saying like, "You can't even tell your kids anymore, not to smoke crack because the mayor of DC has smoked crack." He's like, "You can't smoke crack. What do you want to be when you grew up?" I could be mayor. How do you expect to succeed in football if you don't know the difference between a nickel defense and a standard defense? Well, I could be Brett Favre.
Hugh Millen (00:54:17):
Yeah. Well, Favre was an outlier in that regard, right? Let's underscore that point. He had so much talent that they could have put 15 guys out there and he still would have found a way to figure it out, that's a good option.
Rob Collie (00:54:37):
It's so awesome. Well, here's the thing, NFL, whether you're interested in it or not, it is a multi, multi, multi billion dollar industry. It's huge money. I think I'd rather live in a world where the NFL was less important. Even though I love the NFL, I love football and everything. I think I'd prefer a world whose priorities were a little bit more aligned with overall human thriving.
Hugh Millen (00:55:03):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:03):
I don't get to decide. So in the meantime, it is huge business. You can't really even think of a place where better decision making in terms of like team construction or team strategy, you can't really think of a place where there's more money at stake for success. It's not just for our entertainment, successful teams are really good business.
Hugh Millen (00:55:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:28):
This is something you and I have been ... you've been fascinated by this longer than I have, but that same industry that we just talked about that has tremendous resources and everything in the world possibly at stake, we just watched Tom Brady at age of like, is he like 60 yet. We just watched him win yet another Super Bowl with yet another team.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:47):
He is 43.
Rob Collie (00:55:48):
He's 43. Okay. I was just rounding him up to 60, and we're like one Drew Bledsoe injury away from having potentially never even known that he existed.
Hugh Millen (00:56:01):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:56:01):
This really highlights, despite all of the resources, despite the rise of analytics, and its popularity and how front and center it is now, I still don't think they've even begun to figure it out.
Hugh Millen (00:56:13):
No, they haven't, and that's borne out by how much they fail in assessing quarterbacks. As you mentioned, Brady, we all know he was a sixth round pick, 199th overall pick in the draft. So everybody failed on him, including the Patriots because if they had any idea how good he was, they certainly wouldn't have waited to the sixth round, and that's a part of where I'm fascinated, and Rob, where you and I have been talking and I've had to put this project on hiatus, because I've been coaching my kids, but my youngest is now a senior in high school. So I'm going to divert my attention to a project that you and I have been discussing for a long time, like the challenge, "Hey, is there a way to scout either college quarterbacks or even NFL quarterbacks, possibly high school quarterbacks?
Hugh Millen (00:56:58):
Is there a way to crunch enough data that we can have any kind of predictive value as to their success," because if that can happen, then you can literally write your own check because as you mentioned, it's such a billion dollar industry and quarterback is the hub of the wheel for any football team. We'll see how that plays out. I did want to respond to what you said about football and the value that it has, and I agree with everything you said, but the way I kind of view it is this and my favorite movie of all time is, "It's A Wonderful Life."
Rob Collie (00:57:34):
I was going to guess Pulp Fiction, but very close.
Hugh Millen (00:57:37):
Not close and there's so many great scenes and themes in that. Remember, George Bailey, Jimmy Stewart's character. There's a point where he's complaining to his father and I'm going to butcher this but hopefully I get enough of the details, right? His father runs a mom and pop hardware store at some point, George Bailey sitting down at the dining room table, and he's saying, "Hey, I want to do big things. I want to go build skyscrapers. I want to travel the world, what have you. I don't want to sit back in little old Beaver Falls, this little town and see if we can make an extra two cents on a length of pipe," I think is one of the lines, right? Just the routine mundane aspects of running a hardware store. So, his father just kind of very poignantly just says, "All the people here, they do the living and dying in this community and is it too much to ask that they could have their own fireplace and their own roof as they go about their mundane lives?"
Hugh Millen (00:58:31):
I put myself in that, by the way. Most of us aren't going to make a huge impact in the world and you know, how I can prove that, tell me the first names of your eight great grandparents?
Rob Collie (00:58:45):
Yeah, no chance. Hold on. Tom might have it.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:49):
I did a lot of genealogy. You had me stumped now, but I'll tell you what, you gave me 10 or 15 minutes?
Hugh Millen (00:58:56):
Did you get it?
Thomas LaRock (00:58:56):
I think I could?
Hugh Millen (00:58:57):
Well, then you're in the minority?
Thomas LaRock (00:58:58):
Yeah, only because I spent a lot of time on genealogy, a lot of that.
Hugh Millen (00:59:01):
Okay. So even if you're one of the few that could hit your eight great grandparents, okay, now tell me your 16 great, great grandparents. My point is just a couple generations down the line, your descendants aren't even going to know your name. That's right, for over 99% ... They're not even going to know your name and guess what you might leave pictures to them, and they're going to throw them out, because they're going to look at your picture and they're not going to know who you are and even if you wrote, "Hey, Rob 2017," that's not going to mean anything and your descendants are going to throw your photos out and they're not going to remember your name, and that's true for well over 99% of us. We're just going to live in and breathe and die and not make an impact. Was it too much to ask that people could be excited about a Sunday afternoon game, once a week?
Rob Collie (00:59:53):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (00:59:54):
So that entertainment, right, wrong or indifferent, whether or not the NFL has captivated America, the fact is, depending on how you want to find it, for a substantial percentage of people it does and it's something that as they're going to work, whether it's a white collar job or a blue collar job, they're looking forward to Sunday at 1:00 and for those people, and not everybody, there's a good portion of the population that couldn't care less but ... and maybe have other interests. Maybe they can't wait for the opera and if they can't wait for the opera, God bless them and then I hope the opera fulfills, but there's got to be something, why do we have taxes for parks? We can do something other with that money but we should be able to go to the park and throw a Frisbee and let our kid slide down a slide, right?
Hugh Millen (01:00:38):
I mean, a park should be nearby and we're going to live and die and breathe and have our great grandkids forget our first name at least we could have a park to go to and have the Steelers to root for on Sunday.
Rob Collie (01:00:53):
I mean, count me amongst the people, that an NFL red zone seven hours of commercial free football coverage, the countdown music. I actually am like, viscerally excited, watching that thing count down like the last five or six seconds before it kicks off.
Hugh Millen (01:01:09):
Got it. Bless you. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:01:10):
I mean, it's like Christmas morning, in a way. I'm in.
Hugh Millen (01:01:14):
Well, I saw this newscast, there's some lobster fest in Marysville or something, whatever. Slow summer day, so they actually had a camera out there, and this old gal, she must have been in her 90s. She got this big smile, they asked him how the lobster is. She goes ... they're always talking about how food that's good for your body, what's the nutrients, what's good for your body? She goes, "Sometimes you just have to have food for your soul and lobster is my soul food." I thought, "Wow, that's just great wisdom." So you should have a soul activity. Hey, you look forward to that. It's good for your soul. It makes you feel like you're living a more honest, I won't say energized or fulfilled or whatever, but it's a more interesting life. It's a more appealing life because you have that. So if that's football or whatever it is for you, painting, piano. I just think that there's endeavors like that. Most professions aren't North Korea nuclear politics.
Rob Collie (01:02:14):
That's true. That's true.
Hugh Millen (01:02:16):
Or most diversions, I should say. The people that are providing that for us. Maddie Damon, when he makes a movie. Thomas, right? People in Boston call him Maddie, right? Is he changing the world? Now, his great grandkids may remember his first name.
Rob Collie (01:02:30):
Yeah. He's the one.
Hugh Millen (01:02:31):
He's the one.
Rob Collie (01:02:32):
Generations later everyone claims to be related to him, whether they were or not.
Hugh Millen (01:02:36):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:02:36):
So I have a personal story that underlines in business, data is used to test or displace hunches. Decisions that have been made because of historical tradition and even those sports, at the highest levels have access to everything. They're still I think, heavily, heavily, heavily influenced, especially football. Especially American football is heavily influenced by traditional thinking, gut instinct. So I have a cousin who, unlike me, is incredibly athletic. He can stand with his weight evenly placed on both feet, with his chest facing me and throw a football farther than I can with a running start, turning sideways. Yet, whenever we talk, he'll constantly like ... he's so humble about all of this, right? He's like, "No, no, no. You're like, almost as good at all of these things as I am and I am not." He has access to all of the same information I have and he knows better.
Rob Collie (01:03:39):
He knows that we're not really the same species, but he's still really humble about it. He's always like that. Then one day, I asked him because he'd been a walk on receiver for some Urban Meyer's teams at Florida, and I asked one day. I'm like, "Hey, what is it that really separates you, Brandon, who was sixth string, seventh string, never really saw the field, from someone like Riley Cooper, who was out there as a starter?" I was expecting to get some sort of like, reasonable answer about like, "Well, he's just a hair quicker on a turn or he's a hair quicker in a decision that he has to make," or something like that, right? I was literally looking for that differentiator and he said, the only difference between me and someone like Riley Cooper is opportunity. That's it. It was such a surprise to hear this answer from him because again, he's so humble about this all the time, right?
Rob Collie (01:04:30):
So it really stood out at me. Riley Cooper was a highly touted recruit. The coaching staff was invested. They felt pot committed and you see this everywhere. This is why Brady can sit the bench behind Bledsoe. An ex NFL player recently ... I very rarely see these sorts of things but this one happened to come by, a tweet from Martellus Bennett. He went on this actual like series, it was a thread of tweets. One of them was like, "You know those coaches that you admire, half of them are idiots."
Hugh Millen (01:05:02):
Yeah. That's true.
Rob Collie (01:05:05):
You got all this analytics and all this horsepower and all this incentive on one hand. All this pressure to break these bad habits and yet at the center of everything, are these human beings with these bad habits, who are in charge? I still think that some of the biggest mysteries ... and this is just fascinating, right? Some of the big Just mysteries about talent evaluation or about strategy or whatever, have yet to actually happen. Some of these biggest revolutions in it have yet to happen, because it's still ... Again, it's that human element, right?
Hugh Millen (01:05:40):
Yeah. Well, I think that the example you cite, you could also talk about Kurt Warner, who was the fourth quarterback in the Packers training camp, where they had Brett Favre as we aforementioned. Mark Brunell was the second. You have Ty Detmer was the third and Kurt Warner. Think about Ted Bevvy and Holmgren this is a common story. They're at a scrimmage and Kurt Warner, he had been a box boy at a supermarket. His crew is floundering while he gets in this camp, there's a scrimmage. At the end of the scrimmage, they're playing another team in a scrimmage, not a preseason game but a scrimmage and said, "All right, Kurt, your turn to get the reps," and he turned it down. He said, "I'm not ready." Holmgren is like, "You don't understand this. You got to get in there, and you're going to get four or five plays here. This is ..." and he didn't go in and of course, he got cut and now, he's in the Hall of Fame
Rob Collie (01:06:34):
In a subsequent year when Trent Green got hurt in the preseason. Dick Vermeil, the coach is on TV crying about their season being ruined, at the beginning of the year before it even gets started. He's like so disappointed for his team and all of that.
Hugh Millen (01:06:51):
You could argue that he was crying because he felt bad for Trent Green
Rob Collie (01:06:55):
For Trent Green. Okay. All right.
Hugh Millen (01:06:57):
Because he's a crier.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:58):
That's why he was crying.
Rob Collie (01:06:58):
Come on, Hugh. Don't let the facts get in the way of the story. Just to bring that story home for people who aren't football fans, right? That happened, and the aforementioned Kurt Warner, they have to turn to Kurt, the unknown Kurt. They've got to settle for the unknown Kurt Warner and they go on, like a historic tear and win the Super Bowl.
Hugh Millen (01:07:17):
Yeah, that very year. Yeah. I mean, it's ... if there's ever two guys worthy of making a movie that had played in the NFL, one would be Pat Tillman, who was an Arizona Cardinals safety and he chose to go into the Special Forces and he was killed, walked away from $35 million to go be Army Ranger or whatever he was.
Rob Collie (01:07:36):
I know, just amazing.
Hugh Millen (01:07:37):
Right, and then the other would be Kurt Warner, because it's the most extraordinary rags to riches story of all time, even for me, I get nightmares about once every two months. I played 11 years and my last conversation I had, Jim Fassel was the head coach of the Giants and he called me and he was on his cell phone. He's driving. He had been the quarterback coach and office coordinator at the Denver Broncos when I had been with Denver. So he knew me and he says, "Hey, you want to come out and be Kerry Collins' back up?" I was like, "I'm tired of bouncing around or whatever." So, in a technical sense, I said no, the last conversation I had, I said no. Now, I'm haunted. I wish I would have played a few more years. Like I said, every couple months, I have a dream that I ... I had this opportunity to get 12 or 13 or 14, which if I had to live my career again, I would do that because I got the rest of my life to not play football, right?
Hugh Millen (01:08:30):
So I'm always like, I could have had 14 years but I also look back and I piecemeal my career through and I like wait a minute, my career might have only lasted three years because if I didn't do this at that time, I would have been out and then there's another point a year or two almost every single year, my career is bouncing on the blade of the knife, so I guess the perspective is that, I should be grateful for what I have and I am. It's human nature, right? I always say this, Unless you were the single most privileged person in the world which to me would be like the son of some oil Sheik and his dad is worth 60 billion and he's got 120 foot boats and Bentley cars and helicopters and-
Rob Collie (01:09:18):
747s with pools in them.
Hugh Millen (01:09:20):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you somehow, somebody, you were tasked to say, "Find me the most privileged person in the entire world out of eight billion population," or you're the single most oppressed person. Think of like the most oppressed ... I don't know, if he's in a North Korea prison camp. Maybe it's some kid in India living in a landfill. Those are the two extremes. Everybody else is in the middle so that you can either look ahead of you and say, "Man, why can't I be like him," or you can look below you and be grateful that you have it better than them. It's all just, what group of people do you want to look at? So there's only two unique people in that discussion and we ain't one of them.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:05):
Briefly that I was going to mention ... I don't know why, but earlier today I was thinking to myself, about how NFL drafts, everybody gets it wrong, right? So you would think in the first round 32 teams pick, that's their number one choice. That should be the best player in the team in the next year or two. They should be all pros. How many of those first rounders become all pros? They're just so wrong about so many people. You guys, you want to talk about predicting quarterback and I started thinking about it, and you touched upon this right? So why do we have Tom Brady because of one incidence, right? Mo Lewis, Marvin Lewis almost kills Drew Bledsoe and for that we have Tom Brady and it comes back to where ... when people talk about you just get lucky, you got lucky here? No, no luck is when preparation meets opportunity.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:53):
So whatever you guys pulled together, and I'd love to help you and be a part of it, I've been trying to do a lot more machine learning, predictive analytics and that's the thing that you have to factor. It's not just the talent they have. It's their ability to prepare, and will they be ready for the opportunity. So that's why you have situations where a guy like Eli says, "I ain't going to San Diego, I need to go somewhere else. San Diego is not the right opportunity for me." Unless you have that factored in somehow ... I mean, right now on Kaggle, there's a competition they do every year. It's called March Machine Learning Madness. So you're supposed to build a model based upon all the previous NCAA years to factor and come up with who rightfully should win and then apply that model to the upcoming tournament.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:40):
I'm like, "Yeah, but what about time zones. You got a team that travels East and has to play at noon, which is really 9 AM for them on a Thursday. That's a huge disadvantage. I don't care what their seat is." That's why you have a thing where Holy Cross almost be ... I forget who it was Kansas or something, right? There's so many factors to this equation, a simple equation. Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.
Hugh Millen (01:12:03):
Yeah, but for those of us who are interested in data, in college football, there was a period where the computers were part of the discernment of who was winning national championships, right? When people say that computers as if computers are just orbiting around Mars, just kicking out data, right? It's obviously ... it's whatever we feed that in, a sign is important. So what you're saying is that that needs to be factored in the algorithms, right? That you're playing off the ... but at some point, I think those of us who have any interest in data, we have to feel like there's something to get back to the Tom Brady. At the very moment of draft day, let's just use it, May 15th, 2000, all you had is what Tom Brady had done in his life. We can agree with that, right? Everything that we could apply about ... relevant about Tom Brady had to have occurred up to that date.
Hugh Millen (01:13:02):
So what had he done in any way, is there anything that he had done ... For example, if you could input every conceivable data point, "Okay, this is a guy that ... he ate oatmeal, all through childhood instead of Froot Loops." I mean, if you could have every conceivable variable, is there anything we were interested in data, that we could have put into an application that could have predicted that? I have a very fuzzy vision of the following. They say, what would be the obvious thing that people missed about Brady? Well, he had this penchant for making comebacks in college when he was at Michigan, and he had a bowl game against Alabama, where he had four touchdown pass and he brought them back from two touchdowns back on two different occasions in that bowl game against Alabama.
Hugh Millen (01:13:58):
They said, "Well, that's exactly like Joe Montana." Joe Montana was a third round pick and he had this comeback against Texas, in the Cotton Bowl. The chicken soup game if you're a big fan, because he had the flu. So maybe you start to crystallize on that, where you say, "Okay, those who have a pension for having those type of comebacks, do they have a higher likelihood of being a star quarterback?" Well, regrettably, I'm sure that what we'd find is that there was a lot of guys who had a comeback or two, and then you drafted them and then they didn't do anything. So what is it? Is there something that we could have identified, that would have said, "Hey, this thing is really spiking. Our application is spiking. Our application is telling us that while you would think that Tom Brady, the future six round pick that he's got like a 2% chance of ever doing anything, this computer is actually just going haywire and saying that's actually more like an 82% chance, that he's going to do something.
Hugh Millen (01:15:04):
I just use pretty extreme numbers but what if it went from 2% to 32%. Now, he's not a sixth round pick, maybe and some people ... maybe he's a third round pick. There's one thing data can tell us after the fact but that whole realm of can you ... you guys are in the business, you use the right term but just a predictive component of that if we can get into that, now, all of a sudden we're the nerds with the submarines.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:32):
I want to suck right now. My God.
Hugh Millen (01:15:35):
Yeah, you want a submarine. If you want a submarine, how about this, you go tell Bob Kraft who's the next Tom Brady. He'll buy you a submarine?
Thomas LaRock (01:15:42):
Actually, if I know Bob, I think he buys everything in pairs, right? He's got the two jets. I think you'll get two submarines, yeah.
Hugh Millen (01:15:49):
Yeah. Well, he'll give you one.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:51):
Before we sign off, I just wanted to show this the genealogy sheet. So I knew four of the names.
Hugh Millen (01:15:56):
You knew four, four of the eight.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:59):
So here's what's funny, right, is I've got all eight because I spoke with my grandparents while they were still alive and so I recorded their names and then I was trying to do research. I only have six of the 16 after that. I can't trace my history, like you say, it's forgotten. I can't even find it. It's completely lost.
Hugh Millen (01:16:17):
Or, you never knew it. Yeah, but the point in saying that is pretty humbling like you guys know the blue dot, the Hubble telescope ... that wouldn't have been the Hubble.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:27):
Pale blue dot.
Hugh Millen (01:16:27):
The pale blue dot, right? That wouldn't have been the Hobble. There was some photo of Earth taken from halfway across the universe and it's this little ... and you think of everything that's ever transpired. It's all taken place on that dot.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:39):
Everybody who lived, everybody who's died.
Hugh Millen (01:16:41):
So it's humbling and I think that thinking about all the things we worry about or whatever, to think that in two generations or no more than three, our descendants aren't even going to know our name.
Rob Collie (01:16:54):
Those are our descendants.
Hugh Millen (01:16:55):
Those are our descendants. Yeah, they have our blood in ... Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:17:00):
Yeah.
Hugh Millen (01:17:00):
Yeah, our descendants.
Rob Collie (01:17:01):
Not to mention everyone else.
Hugh Millen (01:17:03):
Yeah, not to-
Rob Collie (01:17:03):
Really doesn't give a shit.
Hugh Millen (01:17:04):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. People who owe their existence to us aren't even going to know our names within a couple generations. It's astounding.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:13):
What I just read, I read a quote this week that basically said, "Just remember, no one here gets out alive."
Rob Collie (01:17:19):
Yeah. Existentialism with Hugh Millen.
Hugh Millen (01:17:23):
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've just kind of circumnavigated and barely touched on data.
Rob Collie (01:17:29):
This is pretty typical. I think we probably got more into data on this conversation than on average.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:35):
Look, if we have to refund listeners' money, we will.
Rob Collie (01:17:38):
We'll give them back 10X what they paid.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:40):
Yeah, 10X
Hugh Millen (01:17:41):
At least, right?
Rob Collie (01:17:42):
Yeah, this was great. I really, really, really enjoyed this.
Hugh Millen (01:17:46):
Likewise.
Announcer (01:17:47):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email lukep@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Get to know the C-Suite of P3 as we welcome Kellan Danielson to the show! He's President and COO at P3 and is responsible for the development of so many of the essential inner workings that have allowed P3 to grow as successful as it has. His journey from humble introverted data and business intelligence enthusiast to humble company President is wonderful, and his business acumen is unmatched!
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends, we're going to do something a little bit different today. Our guest is Kellan Danielson, President and COO here at P3, my business partner and the person I like to joke about as he and I combined make one good leader. This session took on a bit of a retrospective journey kind of feel. Today, our company P3, we really feel like we have it figured out. And that's an unusual thing for me to say, given myself deprecating nature. But I think it's a part of having been on this journey, and we've spent so many years figuring it out, so many years solving puzzles, so many years cracking the riddle that is our business model that today it doesn't really feel arrogant when I say that I think we've really solved it. But it was a hard road and it's one that Kellan and I traveled together over the last six plus years. And so a big part of what we talk about in this podcast is that journey, that road that we were on, the challenges that we faced and how we adapted.
Rob Collie (00:00:56):
It's been a technical journey, it's been a business journey, but it's also been an intensely emotional and personal journey. I'm insanely grateful that Kellan and I crossed paths and teamed up. It just wouldn't have worked probably with anyone else. There's a very Jerry Maguire, you complete me sort of feeling here. And I do get a little bit emotional mushy at a couple of points in our conversation. I'm a little too close to this story, of course, and so it's hard for me to tell whether this will be one of our more popular episodes or one of our less popular episodes. We'll find out, won't we? I'm really curious to find out actually. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:35):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please.
Announcer (00:01:39):
This is the Raw Data By P3 Podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data By P3 is data with a human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:55):
Welcome to the show, Kellan Danielson.
Kellan Danielson (00:01:59):
Thanks for having me.
Rob Collie (00:02:01):
Yeah. You're so thankful. This is the thing you're going to look forward to the most for like a week. I'm sure of it. Actually I was going to say, thank you for being a good sport and willing to join us. This is a little bit different. You and I work together all the time. Normally on these shows we're connecting with someone we've never met before or reconnecting with someone from the past. So we work together all the time. We almost need to explain to people our own history. Let's start here. You were one of the first two or three people to pass what we now call the interview of death.
Kellan Danielson (00:02:41):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:02:42):
And at the time I was "just" looking for people who could do the job of consulting in the Power BI space and could do it as well as I could or better without a lot of coaching, without any coaching. I had no idea that I was going to be getting also the future president and COO of this company. It's a very interesting journey. Do you remember how you felt at the time when you were doing that test? There's this weirdo on the internet emailing you a DAX riddle essentially. Can you put yourself back in that place?
Kellan Danielson (00:03:23):
Yeah. I think it was with stages because what you needed at the time was evolving. Initially I think it was more a like moonlight kind of a gig, which I was very into because what I was doing at Columbia Sportswear, I was just getting very good at it so it didn't take as much time. So I was like, "Well, I want more of a challenge." It was really all about the challenge. I want to help more people instead of less, I guess. But this is the same thing we talk about with new hires too. It's like, let's take them out of positions of unappreciated employees and put them in places of, not authority necessarily, but trusted advisors with clients that almost implicitly trust what they're saying because they are trustworthy and experts in it.
Kellan Danielson (00:04:10):
And some people gave me that kind of respect at Columbia. Some people didn't. I have no ill will towards Columbia at all, but I wanted more of it. I wanted more of that kind of challenge, that kind of respect. And so moonlighting seemed like a good... I didn't know if I'd get the job or whatever, but it was like staged. And the stages happened, I think pretty quickly, at least in retrospect. I mean, I'm still today trying to slow my heart rate down because there's been so much change in the last four years. Probably so much change that... Actually, I have a good analogy. What I say when somebody comes into this job as a principal consultant, let's say, they learn more as a principal consultant in the first six months than they do in their whole entire career.
Kellan Danielson (00:04:56):
I mean, they're going around the country talking to every single industry and vertical and department and various levels of an organization. There's just no substitute for this kind of work in the real cubicle world in a single company. Anyway, so that first six months was just a wild ride and then your guys'... but time PowerPivotPro, P3 needs changed. And makes sense because earlier on, I think you thought this change might come quicker and that's what's happened over the years too. It's like we hit these little step changes and I think that's what occurred. That's why I'm talking about these stages that I went through. First was moonlighting challenge, blah, blah, blah. And then the second was like, oh, maybe I should just do this all the time.
Kellan Danielson (00:05:47):
And then that was a big one for me when I was taking that diabolical test, I got up the moonlighting thing and was like, that wasn't an automatic full-time thing. It was like, okay, well, I have a really comfortable 9:00 to 5:00 respected job, should I take this leap? And at the time I remember doing Excel work for my own budget, for my own finances. How much can I afford to lose?
Rob Collie (00:06:16):
Another refrain on this podcast, only bet as much as you can afford to win. We're going to someday need to have the originator of that saying on the show. Scott [Suncresty 00:06:29]. We'll give him some time.
Kellan Danielson (00:06:32):
No, he'd be a good guest for sure.
Rob Collie (00:06:33):
You've done a lot of things. You have had a lot of jobs. Not Kevin Overstreet number of jobs, but some fractional number of Overstreets. You're on the Overstreet scale.
Kellan Danielson (00:06:43):
I think I've had average nowadays. What I struggle with is, I tend to get bored if it's not challenging. I want to keep challenging myself. A lot of times that means trying new things. So over the years, probably in the last decade, I try to do less of that just because I have a family and people rely on me and things like that. But before P3, it was Columbia Sportswear more like an analyst planner. It would be more like global planning. I mean, I wasn't a demand planner or supply planner. I was helping all of them come up with the right forecast, aggregate threat information, a lot of sales reporting, selling type stuff. A lot of data, essentially data from everywhere. There was no department at that time other than FP&A and FP&A really stopped at a certain level of detail that they call the category like sportswear or outerwear, things like that, that no other department at Columbia focused on Skew almost like the UPC level where is actual product around the world? Where is it selling? Where is it located? How long we've been storing it? All that stuff.
Kellan Danielson (00:07:56):
So that's a lot of data, and Power Pivot and just Tabular actually was same kind of thing. But it was so much data that Tabular was the solution to Columbia's problems. They just fought it every step of the way and I just kept saying, "No, we're going to keep going." And eventually it was done and it was just very cubed and they could report however they wanted; Excel, Power BI, Power Pivot and Excel, just PivotTables by themselves. I mean, there was analysts all over the company that I didn't even know that were using these models. And that was some of the benefit of it. The CEO, Tim Boyle benefited from those. He probably doesn't know, probably doesn't care but he would get those reports a lot quicker and more accurate and updates however often he wanted them. And then before Columbia, I was in distribution and warehousing.
Rob Collie (00:08:55):
You did some stints over in the United Kingdom, right?
Kellan Danielson (00:08:58):
Yeah. I was the, maybe a blend of a warehouse manager and a office manager, because a lot of the stuff I was doing was warehouse performance, distribution metrics, P&L management. So it was like a blend and we would implement new warehouses, and that's what you're talking about with the UK. When in London I was there for like a month, because there was an operation that went sideways and they weren't getting stuff out. So I was just at my laptop for a month. I still remember I was working 90 to 100 hours a week. It was brutal.
Rob Collie (00:09:36):
They sent the Kellan. They sent the fixer.
Kellan Danielson (00:09:38):
And it wasn't just me. There was a few other people there too that were... I was out there on the floor packing stuff sometimes. I wasn't just on the computer.
Rob Collie (00:09:45):
Yeah. This is all just your training montage in the movie. This is all preparation for what you had to do at P3.
Kellan Danielson (00:09:56):
I share this with my dad too. Actually my dad was at that same company. We just did some work for them this week, I think. And I share this kind of trait where I don't need to be sitting in the seat. I'm happy to go out. Let's make the numbers better by action. Put me in, coach. I like to be the player coach. I struggle with people to have this issue, I can get over it. But I struggle with where it's like they're almost too good for menial task. And that's funny because I like automation.
Rob Collie (00:10:29):
Yeah, you do. You love it.
Kellan Danielson (00:10:31):
But also I recognize the value of menial tasks. Sometimes you can't repeat in automation what a human gives you. Oftentimes times actually.
Rob Collie (00:10:42):
Or it takes forever to build the automation that the human being could have gone and done one time. If you're going to do it one time, the human is usually better than building some system to go run once.
Kellan Danielson (00:10:56):
I'm a big proponent of MVPs, minimum viable products, things like that where it's like, look, let's just see if this thing has any legs and I don't want to over build this thing. Let's just see if it's going to provide the value we think it is before we sink all of this cost and effort and exhaustion into it to then scrap it. That's where I learned that blend of technology and hands on work played such an important blend.
Rob Collie (00:11:26):
You need a lot of clubs in the bag, to use a golf metaphor, and I don't really golf. But you need a lot of clubs. But you also need to know when to use which one.
Kellan Danielson (00:11:34):
Right. I have a funny story, actually, one that now Power Platform can do this probably just in a second. But back then it was a little bit more challenging. We had this separate computer. Well, actually first we had an order planner. What she did was she just took orders from our clients, customers, and then she made them into waves and those waves would be then sent to the warehouse to be picked and packed and shipped. But that process was the same. And it was a critical thing. There was no way that she couldn't do this. She had to do this, put the orders in to the waves, send the waves, priority ones, priority two based on overnight shipping, whatever, all that stuff. But it was the same, no variation. The only variation was the orders, but they always got batched in the same way. I found this thing where it would just take over your mouse and keyboard and it would just... and this was AS/400 kind of system so there was no way to automate in a traditional sense.
Rob Collie (00:12:35):
Right. No API.
Kellan Danielson (00:12:36):
No API. So we just automated the task with enough spaces for... because they gave us not very good computers. So enough spaces to let the computer catch up and all this stuff, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, enter 40, all that stuff. We set up a separate computer that was always on so we could see it because it was kind of fun in the middle of the office. His name was Launchbot or her name, whatever preference. We had a chair with Launchbot in it and Launchbot was working and it would just do that task anymore... It was task that nobody wanted to do by the way. People were already overworked anyway. So there was no like, oh, we want to cut a head count. No, head count stayed the same, but people's energy went up, people could divert their attention to other things that actually mattered. It was a fun almost like foray into desktop automation.
Rob Collie (00:13:34):
Yeah. But the fact that you had a separate computer set up because it was fun to watch, I have a name for this. I call this watching the Roomba. You don't want to vacuum your house so you get a Roomba. But inevitably when the Roomba starts, you just sit there and watch it. I remember the first several months we had a Roomba, when that thing started, I knew what I was doing for the next hour and a half. It wasn't saving me any time.
Kellan Danielson (00:14:07):
Yeah. Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:14:09):
I had the same experience back when Power Pivot... we didn't have Power BI back then, back when in a former job, really our first client, we had just these whole folders full of workbooks that were all front ends to the same Power Pivot model. For various pseudo security reasons, we had to keep all these workbooks separately. They were all identical, but they all had different filters in them. You want to make a change to your work books like, oh gosh, now I've got 41 workbooks I've got to touch to change the font or something on all 41 of them. So I ended up getting better at VBA in that role than I'd ever was at Microsoft.
Rob Collie (00:14:48):
I'd have this whole library of macros. And by the way, anybody that wants these macros just email us. I'll give you this undocumented library of macros. I've given it to lots of people at trainings before and your mileage may vary. But I would kick these things off. And they would go ripping through the folder, opening one workbook at a time, making that change, saving the workbook, moving on to the next one. And what would I do? I'd sit there and I'd watch the damn thing. It's like I couldn't walk away. Watching the Roomba, it's a real thing.
Kellan Danielson (00:15:24):
Yeah. Watching the Launchbot. So that was fun. Before Power BI, Columbia Sportswear was where Power BI was starting to hit the scene. And even then, towards the end, it was still a new tool. So before distribution of those OI Global, at that point it was really only two jobs. And I count those two jobs as almost like internships in a sense for this job. Like I said, with the whole, six months you learn more than your career is really true. And for me, it's probably like three months. It's almost like my resume doesn't matter. I don't know. It sounds weird. It does to some people. It doesn't to me that much.
Kellan Danielson (00:16:03):
But the stuff that I've learned with fortune 100 companies, pretty high up in these companies, is just not even really an opportunity that my prior employers would've allowed me to even do, which in effect gave me the kind of experience in such a short period of time that sure, you have imposter syndrome for a little bit. I still do. But I do know that if I walk into the room, someone else might get nervous with, I'm pretty confident with my capabilities where I'm at. And that's why I never really had any issues with stage fright, that kind of stuff because if it was something I didn't know, I would. If it's something I know and I'm passionate about, I don't care.
Rob Collie (00:16:50):
You're not the kind of person that's going to be on stage talking about something you don't know about. That's just not-
Kellan Danielson (00:16:55):
That's not my personality.
Rob Collie (00:16:56):
You're not going to find yourself in that spot. And I think a lot of people are waking up to this. There's a lot of people who are becoming voices in the Power Platform community that never expected to be community voices of any sort, never expected to be giving presentations and stuff like that. But it's like, when you're talking about your own life story, when you're talking about the things that you're good at, it's not nearly as challenging. Not to say that it isn't still challenging, because it is. But I'm a lot more confident speaking at conferences and things now about the things that we do and the things that I've learned since leaving Microsoft than I ever was when I spoke on behalf of Microsoft. Because when I was speaking on behalf of Microsoft, I was talking to the real world. I came from inside the ivory tower in a way. I didn't have time to go out and do the things that the real people were doing.
Kellan Danielson (00:17:49):
Yeah. And I want to say something real quick, because everything is about a matrix. There's no simple issues in the world anymore. They all revolve around multiple topics. And if you think you're on one side or the other, you're probably just wrong. It's not right and left. And the issues are complicated.
Rob Collie (00:18:09):
So many things in that story that just leap off the page. First of all, we talk about it and it sounds like it's bullshit. It sounds like it's a made up story in a way, because we think of career as primarily being about money. And yes, it is about money. I'm not going to say that it isn't. At the same time, if you're in some position out in the world in business where you don't think of yourself as an Excel analyst, that's how the business world flows through you is through Excel. You're like a symbiotic being with Excel that's doing something, and then you're doing something else like supply chain or whatever, then you discover these tools. You discover Power BI and it's like Neo waking up from the matrix. There's no going back. You cannot unwake.
Rob Collie (00:19:00):
And it's not like your previous job you were properly appreciated. No one really appreciates the person who's good at Excel the way that they should. The business programmer that makes it all work. But now the delta between what you can be doing and how you can be valued and where you're actually valued is now just an order of magnitude wider. You still got to think about the money thing. It's not like that goes away, but that discomfort, it's weird. You became more capable and now you're less satisfied with where you are that you just can't go back to sleep. You almost wish you could in a way, but you can't. And this is the common thread for most of our team. Most of our company is that.
Kellan Danielson (00:19:44):
I like the combination. So when I went full time, I was principal consultant and I split my time between training and consulting. And I really liked that. I have a family of teachers. I enjoyed the classroom teaching, even as an introvert. And I like being in the background in my current role, but I enjoyed people's light bulbs going off and seeing what it could do for them. And that's really, really true. I mean, you talked about it. They're starting to think like a different way. Wait a second, I didn't realize I was being undervalued even sometimes.
Rob Collie (00:20:21):
Yeah. You're welcome for that piece of wisdom. Go back and be dissatisfied.
Kellan Danielson (00:20:27):
That doesn't mean necessarily people are leaving the jobs or anything like that, but it does sometimes give a different narrative for them to use. It also helps when those managers are in those trainings too, and even if they're not going to be necessarily code writing, they start to see, oh, my team is unbelievably powerful. One additional headcount is insanely valuable. It's no parallel to it almost. I can't think of a whole lot of parallels where it's like you add one, let's say Excel analyst and you get so much for it.
Rob Collie (00:21:00):
Wow. I never really thought about that. I've always thought about it from the perspective of, oh, it's great that their manager did come to this training. I've only observed it.
Kellan Danielson (00:21:08):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:21:10):
But thinking about it from the perspective of, yeah, you should bring your manager to the training. Try to drag them kicking and screaming.
Kellan Danielson (00:21:19):
Yeah. A lot of times I'd be in those trainings and I wouldn't really have to worry too much about the analyst because they're going to eat it up. You almost have to convert some of the... The managers, obviously they're writing the checks, but I think a lot of times they're questioning what I'm saying in a sense almost like hyperbolic and it's not. That's the nice thing about our trainings is it's like multiple days. So I can ease them in to the, no, there's no hyperbole here.
Rob Collie (00:21:48):
Yeah. You can walk the walk after we talk it at the beginning.
Kellan Danielson (00:21:51):
It's really funny, when I've done trainings for Big Four firms, and those are really funny when you have directors and you're like, "Should I even be telling them this stuff?" The pie chart on need for this stuff is so much bigger than any one firm can swallow up. So it doesn't even matter. As a matter of fact, sometimes they go in and they got their other people behind them and they're ruining it in other ways.
Rob Collie (00:22:21):
Yeah. There's some stories right there. There's a lot there.
Kellan Danielson (00:22:29):
I think a big thing for me was, there's two key stages, I think, that mentally I had to get past. And I think a lot of this is entrepreneurial, that mindset like that was my degree so I should have been prepared for it, but I don't think anybody really is until you get into it. Going full time, leaving a comfortable job, getting on my wife's insurance, those kind of things. And the second was, when you asked if I wanted to not be a principal consultant anymore, because being a principal consultant, there's a lot of very visible benefits to it. You get client feedback, you get immediate return on that investment. Whereas a part of the management team or whatever, like growing the business is a different return. It's almost like you have to find that kind of feedback internally, as well as with your peers, which is just me and you essentially. And you almost need to live vicariously through your team, but still give them the dues they deserve. But also try to give yourself some too.
Rob Collie (00:23:36):
The thing that originally dragged you in to moonlighting was that emotional satisfaction of doing what you were capable of doing for someone who appreciated it, right?
Kellan Danielson (00:23:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:23:50):
So when you moved up the ladder here, basically it's like we built a ladder so that Kellan could climb it. I mean, there is a ladder now, but there wasn't a ladder. It was like, there is no spoon.
Kellan Danielson (00:24:05):
Yeah. Let's build this ladder.
Rob Collie (00:24:08):
But when you do that, now you walk away from the thing that drew you in, in the first place. It's a good thing we had some other places for you to scratch that itch, wasn't it? It turns out. I think when people look in at our company, if we described our company as ex Microsoft software leader, Rob, with a bunch of "former Excel analysts", I think that would really give people a very lopsided view of the talent equation here. And I think that's a natural picture to have looking in from the outside, but it's off. It's off, isn't it? First of all, I'm really not that important. The background that I had coming from Microsoft and all the things that I've done, I think that was important for spotting the need for a different kind of company, spotting this opportunity.
Rob Collie (00:25:04):
If you focus too much on the ex Microsoft guy, you're really missing the point because it's the team, isn't it? The team, they're the rock stars. They're the ones that make this work. And as consultants, they are all far more talented than I am and far more talented than I think you would expect them to be. And it's probably because the people that we found, the people that make up our team, they had tremendous amounts of latent talent and capabilities that were not being properly utilized, if utilized at all, in their former roles. In a world that made more sense, the consultants that work for us now, in their previous roles, they would've been far more appreciated and far more used. They would've been able to tap into those talents. They would've been encouraged to tap into those talents. And the organizations would have actually built frameworks around them to leverage those talents.
Rob Collie (00:26:05):
So in a way, all we've really done is righted that wrong. We've really put these people in a position where they can shine as brightly as they were really supposed to. For the people who are listening who don't know, which is part of why we're doing this, our company operates on an impossible business model. Let's let that sit there for a moment. All the jokes that we make about nobody believed in us, blah, blah, blah, there's a reason for it. We've set up our company in a corner of the market landscape that was previously thought inhospitable, uninhabitable. It's like the Mars outpost out in the middle of the desert or something. It's a difficult business model. Now, it's not a difficult business model in terms of the customers. It is the ideal business model for our customers.
Kellan Danielson (00:27:00):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:27:01):
So that part's easy. Being the best possible deal, the highest possible tempo, the best possible results using the modern tools is a great deal for the customer. I think everyone knows that. But how do you keep things organized? The thing you said earlier where in the first six months of working here, you learn more than you learn in your previous career to date, that's true. There's this really nerdy thing. Like in physics, the inverse of frequency is wavelength. If you crank the wavelength down, which is what we do, the duration of a project that delivers value, we are insanely fast for our clients relative to our competitors and relative to the traditional model. But that also means when you crank that down, that means that for the individual consultant, you're seeing a lot, you're getting a really compressed treatment of how the entire world works, because you're moving through a lot of stuff.
Kellan Danielson (00:27:57):
Definitely.
Rob Collie (00:27:57):
And I live that because I was the first consultant, the first and probably least capable but the first. And I learned so much about how the world works because of that high frequency exposure. So if it's a great deal for the customers, there's a magic level of utilization that you need to maintain across your consulting team and in any consulting business. Unless you're like one of those insane people that charges $10,000 an hour. And that's not us. So whether it was possible to move at this high frequency model the way that the tools allowed it to move, the new way that became possible. So whether we could build a business that was internally sustainable, that sustainable business model thing, whether that could be done. And that was more of a question, wasn't it? I was committed to finding out and I was probably stubbornly committed to it being yes we can kind of thing. But that doesn't mean that I knew how.
Rob Collie (00:29:00):
So you Kellan, more than any one person for sure are responsible for having solved that problem, the how. The dreaded Tetris problem. How do you A, make all these small irregular shaped blocks of work that are dictated by the clients flow with them? So how do you make all of those fit into the container that is an average consultant month so that we can be sustainable and be a viable business and continue? And not just that, but scale that. It's one thing if you are sitting there as a human being very carefully crafting all of these pieces together for an individual consultant and you're spending hours on it like a beautiful mind with the chalkboard or something. As you scale up, you can't put that effort in. It has to just flow. And I am not the person to solve that problem. I thought I was. You got to have some hubris, something about entrepreneurship. You have to almost have an irrational belief in yourself to even take the leap.
Rob Collie (00:30:17):
So then the flip side is, at what point do you realize you're in over your head, you've got to get help? And this is where you come into my story, which is crucial. I underestimated how hard this was. The reason we got into this is because you said it was hard to step back from that frontline satisfaction of delivering what we do for our clients. That was the original emotional draw anyway. We had a little bit of a puzzle, didn't we, behind the scenes. I like to tell people that we're our own case study for the Power Platform? And it's not like we a hundred percent use Microsoft tools. That makes it even better. It's exactly what the Power Platform is supposed to do is make your "hybrid, best of breed"... Our company should be a case study for Microsoft. They have no idea. Here we are, look, the Mars outpost in the market absolutely thriving where no one dares tread because of the Power Platform support.
Kellan Danielson (00:31:28):
Yeah. I don't think you're the least talented. The nice thing about a growing company is that you actually have to start diversifying where your talents are. In the beginning, it was 1099 consultants. If you couldn't do the work for a client, you probably weren't going to be on the team. Unless for a few require... like an accountant. It's things like that that we had to do to run a company. But now we have people with talents that other people don't have that we need. We have copywriters and designers and dedicated sales people. This is part of the equation.
Kellan Danielson (00:32:01):
Tetris isn't just about an individual or team's utilization. It's about how do you make a company operate in such a way that it's not just efficient, but effective. And that requires a balance of financial priorities with client and internal priorities. That means shifting from 1099s to of full-time employees, because that's what they need. People need full-time jobs and they need benefits. We don't have universal benefits in this country. People need benefits. They have kids and they need work life balance, which 1099s, there's not always a good work life balance in the 1099 world because it's all about bill.
Rob Collie (00:32:46):
Yeah. And let's pause for a moment there and try to slow motion that one so that people understand. I was operating the website back in, let's say 2015. So 2015 is when we crossed paths and I was basically fully utilized as an individual, as a human being. Between running the website, the blog, running trainings, doing consulting. And that's when I realized that I needed more help, but I wasn't prepared to hire people in a full-time capacity. There was more work than I could do, but not enough that I could get people to forsake their full-time paying gigs. When we say 1099, we mean people who are working as independent contractors. You can think of it as moonlighting, but it needed to happen during the day. Because our clients needed to interact with you during the day. We called it daylighting. So how many people in the world, how many total freak shows were out there that were willing and able to daylight for our company? We ran out of those people pretty quickly.
Kellan Danielson (00:33:56):
Yeah. That's definitely a component as well.
Rob Collie (00:33:59):
Yeah. So at some point you're right. But by the way, 1099 was a great fit for the "company" at the time. Because it was when work comes along, that little Tetris piece, we just farm them out. It was path of least resistance. It made a lot of sense at the time. But when the Tetris piece didn't fit or didn't come along, it wasn't the company's responsibility. Was it? You go back to your day job. So that transition to full-time W2 with benefits, it brings a lot of overhead. It was necessary because to do the work, you need to have people and boy does it complicate things, doesn't it? And that's in 2017. So we're really on the four year anniversary right now of people being full-time W2 employees with benefits at the company. It's crazy. It does seem like yesterday.
Kellan Danielson (00:34:56):
Yeah. I think it was February 1st, 2017 was the first payroll.
Rob Collie (00:35:01):
Crazy.
Kellan Danielson (00:35:03):
Yeah. I think I was in Hawaii on my honeymoon.
Rob Collie (00:35:10):
Yeah. You're on your honeymoon. Everything is going to be smooth sailing from here.
Kellan Danielson (00:35:16):
Yeah. I do remember my wife not being too happy with me on my phone. I tried to set some rules but that's tough.
Rob Collie (00:35:23):
Yeah. You're one of the least capable vacation takers I've ever met. You've gotten better.
Kellan Danielson (00:35:29):
Yeah. I'm not very good but I try.
Rob Collie (00:35:33):
You have gotten better. Yes.
Kellan Danielson (00:35:34):
Yeah. I think a big part of this, which kind of relevant now, but it's been our lives, which is everyone's remote in our company. There is no office. I think that most people know that already, but that makes the company Tetris, the back office help, the principal consultants working on multiple clients, clients working with multiple consultants, all that stuff, funneling the information back to you and I extremely critical to making sure that we have the right Tetris pieces, we have the right skills, capacity, fit so that we can actually run a company. There's no hallway chats. I think a lot of people can relate if they really think about it for a second how much important things happen in the hallways.
Rob Collie (00:36:21):
That's right.
Kellan Danielson (00:36:22):
It's extremely valuable. Executives might think of it as time theft, but it's really not. There's an incredible amount of stuff that happens, "Hey, do you want to grab lunch real quick?" And all of a sudden a breakthrough happens or some critical information that you're not on that project, but you got somebody on the inside that now you tell them, "Oh no, but if you do that, that's going to really negatively impact me."
Rob Collie (00:36:46):
Yeah. I was thinking as you were saying that, that imagine that we just magically did have a physical office and we all lived in the same city and there was COVID. That office would still be empty.
Kellan Danielson (00:37:01):
Yeah. Probably.
Rob Collie (00:37:01):
And maybe not really. But I guess in a real sense, this high velocity up tempo version of things, it's like you've got to be engaged with the customer. It wouldn't be the first consulting office in the world that was largely vacant during the day. I mean, again, even pre-COVID, the average Microsoft field office is a ghost town.
Kellan Danielson (00:37:30):
Yeah, I've seen that.
Rob Collie (00:37:30):
When they let me in over there to do something or whatever, I'm often the only person in the place.
Kellan Danielson (00:37:36):
And sometimes they don't want you to use the room. And like, well, no one else is.
Rob Collie (00:37:40):
Yeah. I'm just here for the free soda.
Kellan Danielson (00:37:45):
No, that's a really good point. I mean, there's a reason why a lot of that hallway chat is done in airports. At least on five occasions that I can think of, I've met with consultants in transfers and layovers just because we happen to be at the same airport at the same time.
Rob Collie (00:38:04):
Airports, what are those?
Kellan Danielson (00:38:06):
I don't know. Haven't been to one in a while. And I think the only way that really effectively happens, especially with the team, which is growing rapidly now and has been, is tight, daily and weekly communication, knowing where people are and how they're doing and just having a friendly human kind of culture where it's like the president and a consultant or a president and designer. There's hierarchy but we try to make it pretty flat. We may bear more responsibility on the wins and losses, but it doesn't mean that we're any different. That's why I like working here. When we had our team meeting in October two years ago, we didn't do it this year, it was really great. It was pretty much a bunch of peers. And I hope to do that this year again. And hopefully October we'll see where we're at.
Rob Collie (00:39:00):
It's hard on an audio format like this, to give people a sense of the living thing, the system that you have built. This network of systems that runs our company and that makes it possible, that sustains us in that... And it's not just technology. It's people, it's workflow and it's the blend of that with software. I do think that this system, the way that we operate is actually a form of intellectual property that we've developed. We're not just a bunch of really capable people. I mean, we don't want to give away too many secrets. Now do we? But we got a lot of complexity behind the scenes. It's more than just the Tetris problem. We have a lot.
Rob Collie (00:39:42):
And so this living creature, the hybrid, the cyborg of software and different systems and also the human beings, is there any way to do that justice? Can we talk about it as a narrative over time like how we evolved it? At some point we decided that we were going to use Salesforce, and we made that decision originally, just to track leads. It was the purest sense of CRM, just like a sales tool for just tracking what's out there, what's possible. That's where the dangerous game began, wasn't it?
Kellan Danielson (00:40:22):
Part of my background at Columbia was master data, which for those that don't know is really just your standard elements like customers, dates, vendors, all those kind of things that you just need standardized across multiple systems and that you have owners who own these things. But when we implemented Salesforce... Well, actually let me back up real quick. I think the key to anything is understanding what the overall workflow is, what teams you have, what's your overall goal. And our goal is increased revenue and maintain cost. So we need to balance supply, which is people that can actually do the work and everybody that surrounds those people that they need to do the work. And then demand, which is how many new clients we have, how big clients, and then everybody around that, that we need to do that work. So that would be like sales people, things like that.
Kellan Danielson (00:41:16):
So Salesforce was just like you said, really just for leads, but quickly became... And this would happen with any CRM we chose. We just weren't going to get out of Salesforce.
Rob Collie (00:41:26):
Once we picked it.
Kellan Danielson (00:41:27):
Yeah. It's just really hard to get out of Dynamics or Salesforce or any real CRM.
Rob Collie (00:41:32):
They know that.
Kellan Danielson (00:41:34):
Yeah. I mean, that's their model. We had considered moving to Dynamics like a year ago. Once we did the due diligence, that wasn't going to happen. It might in the future, Microsoft, if you're listening to this.
Rob Collie (00:41:45):
We'd love you to send a team to migrate us.
Kellan Danielson (00:41:48):
Yeah. If we had a migration team and...
Rob Collie (00:41:51):
Yeah. Maybe we can talk Austin into coming back for two years to help extricate us from the Salesforce he committed.
Kellan Danielson (00:42:00):
He's pretty busy.
Rob Collie (00:42:00):
Yeah, he's pretty busy. But what can be more meaningful than coming back in here and migrating us from Salesforce to Dynamics? I mean, really?
Kellan Danielson (00:42:10):
Yeah. I think we would set him off. So we had that supply and demand kind of overall picture that needed to be solved. And the demand part, we got that Salesforce. That was for the demand side, let's track the leads, let's make sure we're responding to them on time, get them assigned to a consultant, which now we're into the supply side, which there was nothing. That's what I was talking earlier. The only thing we had was a coordinator, essentially, part-time coordinator, basically, that was like, "Who wants this?" There wasn't any type of what I call the trifecta in a sense like the skill, capacity and fit. There was no assessment for, does that person have the right capacity to meet that client's needs? Do they have the right skills? Not just Power Pivot, but maybe there's Power BI visualization or there's data platform. And fit like has somebody worked with them before? Do they have a good personality fit? So none of that was happening. It was really just like a free for all.
Rob Collie (00:43:15):
It's like the old mainframe days. I want mainframe time. I'm talking about an era that I never experienced, but I've heard of it. I want mainframe time. So you go to the scheduler and you request mainframe time. And there's a human being that decides how to allocate mainframe time. And eventually that human being becomes what we know of as an operating system. Right now the CPU is balancing between a million things, a million different jobs and it's automating it. Originally, the operating system was a human being. So there's a parallel here. Our scheduler, our match making system was originally a part-time human.
Kellan Danielson (00:44:01):
Yeah. I mean, in some ways I see myself in those days as an industrial engineer identifying the workflow, what are the largest bottlenecks? And then trying to eliminate or minimize them as much as possible. That's basically what an industrial engineer does is try to map out end to end what's going on. And it's like simplest forms as possible, but then they go all the way down.
Rob Collie (00:44:24):
Oh yes, Mr. Detail.
Kellan Danielson (00:44:28):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:44:28):
You go to all those boring places that are absolutely essential.
Kellan Danielson (00:44:33):
Well, you have to start at the top and eventually go all the way down, otherwise it doesn't get fixed. So I think that big supply problem, the first solution we had with that was the biggest gap in that handoff was really training because there was a time where it was just you. And so pretty quickly it was like, Rob, Kellan, two other people, we have four people. And then now we're in 2017 now we have four other people. How do we transition Rob and Kellan off of this as much as possible so that they can do some of the management stuff and growth stuff and things like that? So we implemented really just, I would consider it MVP called trainer match, which was just effectively like a slot management tool.
Rob Collie (00:45:22):
It was SharePoint, wasn't it?
Kellan Danielson (00:45:23):
It was SharePoint. SharePoint Online basically allowed that coordinator, managers, directors, whatever, to put in the request as they saw them so that they could fill trading slot needs with the client in real time. Whereas before, there'd be this back and forth like, well, let me see who can do it and blah, blah, blah. So we could actually figure out really quickly... because they put their capacity in it ahead of time. That's key. So the trainers say, "I have four days this week," and they had to do eight weeks out.
Rob Collie (00:45:54):
This is the first time that tech really entered the picture.
Kellan Danielson (00:46:01):
Definitely from a supply side, because that happened before I think, we introduced Breezy, I think. That's three, four years ago so I don't know. But I went on a honeymoon, Austin and I had talked about Breezy and when I got back, he had set it all up. Literally. I wasn't gone that long. Now we obviously extended it more in the years to come but that was a very... I mean, I think we even have a case study on it.
Rob Collie (00:46:28):
Yeah, we do.
Kellan Danielson (00:46:28):
Okay. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:46:29):
Breezy, we're on their website with a case study. And that is "just our hiring process." So how many different technical software systems do we have?
Kellan Danielson (00:46:41):
We have as many as we need.
Rob Collie (00:46:43):
Oh yes. That's a movie quote for you. Tyler Durden fights go on as long as they have to. All right. So let me see how many I can think of.
Kellan Danielson (00:46:57):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:46:57):
I am going to miss at least half of them. I know we have Salesforce. I know we have Harvest. We got to have an accounting system, QuickBooks Online like so many companies do. Those are pretty foundational. But now we have a system called Precursive. That's our new-
Kellan Danielson (00:47:19):
That's the new trainer match.
Rob Collie (00:47:20):
The new trainer match. That runs in Salesforce, but really, we might as well consider it a separate system.
Kellan Danielson (00:47:27):
It can run separate.
Rob Collie (00:47:27):
And it's highly customized to us. We didn't just buy that off the shelf. What else am I missing? I'm missing a bunch. I know that. But I just wanted to prime the pump with the easy ones.
Kellan Danielson (00:47:37):
We use Asana for project management.
Rob Collie (00:47:40):
That's right.
Kellan Danielson (00:47:40):
Zapier for lightweight business automation in addition to flow. We use a lot of the tools in the Office 365 stack. So we have Azure and different databases and data warehouses and things like that, that you would expect a Microsoft data specialist to have.
Rob Collie (00:47:58):
Power BI. I mean, we use that to death. That's not just talking our own book. All these systems... There's a hazy set of shoulders to that bell curve of systems. We've got Stitch, we've got WordPress, we've got AdWords and Google this and just crazy number of systems. It's like the smooth slope off into the darkness of systems just like really any company.
Kellan Danielson (00:48:32):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:48:33):
And so we have the same level of complexity in terms of mishmash of base systems and number of systems and variety of systems as really any enterprise does. It's on a micro scale in some sense, relative to the fortune 100, but really to operate effectively today, you've got to take on big company complexity at whatever scale you're at. That's part of the game. In fact, if you're bigger, you can almost get away with lower complexity because you can throw more human beings at a problem. From an IT perspective, we actually have a very complicated business and not a huge IT department to throw at it.
Kellan Danielson (00:49:15):
I think what I'm struggling with is, people that are in it, they get that this is not something that happens overnight like overlaying BI and action with actual process almost seems like a tagline, but it's not, it's a skillset. Like you said, it's IP if you can do it right. And if you have all these systems and none of them are talking to each other, even at the BI layer, unless they're explicitly not meant to, which rarely is the case.
Kellan Danielson (00:49:47):
I mean, it may be that you have one system that has a very specific task. It doesn't actually drive towards the overall goal like revenue or something. But if you have, let's say like a Columbia, you have Korea on a system, you have United States on a system. They're two different ERPs. Effectively somewhere... You don't have to change their ERP. Somewhere they need to be in the same analysis if you want to know how your whole company is doing. That's the hard part that I would like to drive home if we're talking about that, which is, we have BI as a mechanism for effective change. It's not just so we can see numbers. It's so we can act on them quickly.
Rob Collie (00:50:33):
Yeah. And at all levels, there's tactical actions that are triggered all the time.
Kellan Danielson (00:50:38):
We've had serious problems when we didn't have data bubbling up at the right times. We learned our lesson.
Rob Collie (00:50:48):
Yeah, we did.
Kellan Danielson (00:50:49):
We said, "Oh, this BI stuff seems like it's pretty good. Maybe we should do that ourselves." And now we have a suite of reporting that is not just squishy, it's extremely pain oriented. It's like, what are the things that I need to know so that I can act in the shortest intervals possible.
Rob Collie (00:51:12):
There's something you were saying that I really, really wanted to key in on, which is that the reports that we use, the interactive, really amazing Power BI reports that we use, it's like the short story ethos, which is in a short story, there's no single word wasted. That's what they teach you if you're trying to write short stories is every single sentence, every single word has to have utility. That's what these reports feel like. They're not just information for information's sake. If a number's on that screen, if anything is on that screen, it's because we need it.
Kellan Danielson (00:51:43):
Yes. That's critical. I think another thing too, is that our reports evolve because there are times where a number matters more than another time. Well, like for instance, our company dashboard, which is about all systems, really, all processes is meant to simplify it to our core. That used to just be a two month dashboard. I mean, it had the budget and things like that, but that was it. Now it's a three month and it has fields on it that didn't exist because it wouldn't have made sense for it to exist in that different time.
Rob Collie (00:52:25):
Yeah. So there's an important takeaway there is that nothing's ever done. A report or a dashboard can be done at a particular point in time. And it turns out that in the old days we never even got there. And I'm not talking about P3, I'm talking about the world. Reports never, ever got to where they needed to be for that day, ever. But when they get to that point where it's like, hey, this is what we need today, you still shouldn't look at it and say, "Okay, that's done." It's done for now, it should remain flexible and pliable. And these systems do allow that, thankfully.
Kellan Danielson (00:53:03):
Yeah. And I really try to harp on that with my consultants that given a very small preface to a client or internal customer, they're okay with done being where it's at right now. I think there's an illusion out in the world, I think, that's core to BI for some reason. But I think it's true in a lot of places, which is, until it's my done, it's not their done. I need it to be my standard without ever checking their standard first.
Rob Collie (00:53:39):
Which is such a weird inversion. You're talking about essentially the BI professional, having a version of my done that exceeds the client done. That's weird because it used to be the exact opposite. The BI professional was well short. So what we're talking about now is a problem that didn't even exist before, which is that as consultants, we might have ambitions for where this thing goes that are out ahead of our clients. First of all, let's take a moment and just respect that we've reached the point in the world where that problem can even exist. That's awesome. But you're right. There's different ways in which the client might not be ready.
Kellan Danielson (00:54:24):
Because this is a balance here. We have a core product, the Jumpstart. And the Jumpstart's requirement is that you're not going to be done, done. But what you are going to be is on your way. You're going to see stuff on paper. You're going to see results. That's the same thing. I would've never ever... Still to this day, I would've probably never actually had my dashboards out if it was my standard. All the lessons and the experience and the generated wisdom over the years has taught me that the numbers are the only thing that really matter. Make sure they're accurate, timely and presented in such a way that people can understand them. And a lot of times it's self-serving. Sure, they're my dashboard so I need to be informed. But a lot of times, I need my folks informed too. That doesn't mean it always has to be pretty. I'm a big believer in tables, as long as the table isn't a million rows long.
Rob Collie (00:55:26):
Right. Again, every number is there because it's at least sometimes necessary.
Kellan Danielson (00:55:31):
Right. My only point was that we can almost impress a client more with the generation of an incredible metric formula than we can with a pretty visualization because the impact that that single number does on their organization.
Rob Collie (00:55:51):
Yeah. Do you remember at one of the data insight summits, I started it off with what I called the sexiest data visualization of MDIS 2017. And then the next year I just had the same slide with 2017 crossed out and 2018 replaced. And all it was, it was just an Excel grid of numbers that were color coded that was from the command scorecard from back in the day, where when the president of command or the CEO saw that for the first time turned to Mike Miskel and said, "I want you to press the gas pedal as hard as you can." This is the most amazing thing that they'd ever seen. It was so incredibly compelling for their business. And on screen, it didn't impress anybody. But the point was, it was valuable to that business, those numbers.
Kellan Danielson (00:56:49):
And I talked a while ago about blending the overall goal with the workflow and we mentioned a bunch of systems that help us manage some processes like Precursive with scheduling and assignment, the whole capacity skill fit thing. And Google Ads or AdWords and different type of tools we've used for landing pages, Pardot, et cetera, all that stuff for the demand side of things. Our dashboards are really intended to bring it all together. I think a big one is just because of with COVID uncertainty and just our business model going through the different challenges with our business model, figuring it out was cashflow. So we have cash flow, uncertainty, which all stems from those two things; do we have the right people to do the work and do we have enough clients to satisfy our financial requirements?
Kellan Danielson (00:57:50):
So all of those systems are critical for that. QuickBooks, we need our bank balances. We need to know what's on our AR our accounts receivable, what's on our accounts payable. Now, that just tells us actuals. What's out in the future? Well, Precursive, we need to know what kind of revenue we can generate and how much it's going to cost us to generate that revenue. So there's a lot of things that you need, all these systems to come into the same to understand, well, what's our margin going to be? Are we going to have enough cash? Is there going to be a cash short run? Do we need to pull in some of our line of credit or do we need to take action? There's a reason why we have every single report that we have.
Rob Collie (00:58:32):
For people who are listening, given the nature of our business model and the speed at which we operate, for us, you hear us talking about two months and you go, "That's it?" But two months for us is like two years for a lot of people. And we're talking about seeing into a very distant future in a way. We don't hook people on six, 12 month, 18, 24 month projects.
Kellan Danielson (00:59:06):
I mean, sometimes it happens, but it's not... But I think the key thing here is that the projects... The contract is a contract. That's different. But the project, they just so rarely last more than a couple of months.
Rob Collie (00:59:20):
Yeah. They go as long as they have to.
Kellan Danielson (00:59:22):
They don't need to. These are BI projects. I mean, sometimes there's some data platform parts that make it a little bit more complicated, but even then they don't have to go longer than that. We live and die on making sure those projects are a success as fast as we can do it so that we can sell the next project because we're like, "Look, we're not going to nickel and dime you. We want you to be happy and fast." That means fast. BI is fast. You have to be fast otherwise you're irrelevant in BI. One other thing about the dashboard I think that was important. There was some evolution with our reporting too, where it was like, I had reports that were almost like meant to make you feel good like this consultant killed it or whatever. Nobody ever looks at those. They look at them once. And then they're like, "Yeah. Okay, I feel good. I'm gone."
Kellan Danielson (01:00:17):
The evolution that we made in that 1099 to full-time transition was like, look, there's a lot of things that work with the 1099, which is like, the incentives are implicit. You bill, it benefits both parties. With full time, that doesn't necessarily work that way. If you just think of it they get a salary. If they bill or not, it doesn't matter. The incentive is for them to not bill actually. So a big part of our compensation scheme across the board, not just for consultants, but for back office people too, is how do we let this be like a pull mechanism, not a push one? Because we're all remote and so our dashboards actually are leveraged, not just from a management perspective, how are we doing? Where's cash flow? Where's our forecast at? But also from a team perspective.
Kellan Danielson (01:01:11):
Our consultants know exactly where they're at from an incentive perspective. They're looking at their incentive dashboards because it directly impacts their wallet. And I know how much people are looking at those because I have the usage metrics reports, and they're looking at them and they were not looking at the other ones. So incentive dashboards worked really well. They actually get looked at. They drive performance to wherever you want that... You got to make the incentives right. But if you got incentives out in front of people, it's not necessarily a carrot. They put whatever thing they want in it. So we try to make that cash as much as possible, but we have other things too. Anyway, so that's a big part too, is just like this operational incentives, that kind of piece. And then there's the strategic dashboard side to it as well.
Rob Collie (01:01:58):
So many crazy ideas. I'm just going to be all kinds of touchy, feely, appreciative of. All these crazy ideas, the company, the fact that it could be done, leaning into this idea of incentives, sharing the upside. And as a result of sharing the upside, they're being more upside and weaponizing that. Having to systemize, build the systems to make those incentives work and follow that. I am so sincerely appreciative on this journey to have a partner like you who is willing to go on those crazy journeys first of all. But also to help make them reality. Even these ideas, these things that I wanted us to chase, I found out I couldn't have done them on my own. I didn't have the talent to deliver on the things that I wanted to see. So I don't want this recording to go by without me saying, thank you. It's been a hell of a journey, man. It really has.
Kellan Danielson (01:02:59):
Well, you're welcome. And it goes both ways.
Rob Collie (01:03:02):
It does. You come to me with like, "Hey, I want to try something?" Your batting average has been spectacular.
Kellan Danielson (01:03:12):
We do try to keep that as a cultural thing, because if we're going to try new things, you have to be okay with them not working. You don't want them to end up that way. But if you can have an incentive program that you're humble about. Look, we are going in with this with the best intentions. Here's what we want to happen. If it doesn't happen, we're going to adjust it so that it's still... And that doesn't mean we're adjusting it to hurt you. We want it to help everyone that whole thing works with us too. So it's like, as a company, I think if we just consistently take that always learning philosophy to everyday, it allows for one person to not always have the right answer and it allows the right answer to come up, bubble up.
Rob Collie (01:04:00):
Give time to evolve to it, just like the reports.
Kellan Danielson (01:04:03):
Yeah. Just like the reports. Over time, we figured out, oh, we don't really need 30 columns, we just need 15 or whatever it is. Or we don't need five, we need one number. And we just evolve to where you need to be.
Rob Collie (01:04:16):
Once again, I really just am so appreciative of having you as a partner on this journey. In some sense, a big part of that journey is behind us. A lot of things have been solved. I know that something you were saying earlier, you need a challenge and I do too. And we're going to do new things. I'm excited about what's ahead of us as well as proud of what we've done. And thanks for being a good sport and being on the show.
Kellan Danielson (01:04:44):
No problem.
Rob Collie (01:04:45):
Drag you out. You're more introverted. Get it out here. Talk about yourself, not something you typically do.
Kellan Danielson (01:04:52):
My favorite topic.
Rob Collie (01:04:53):
I know. So man, thank you so much.
Kellan Danielson (01:04:57):
Yeah, of course.
Announcer (01:04:57):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data By P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email lukep, L-U-K-E-P@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Chuck Sterling's journey is another example of the uniqueness of the people in the data field. The short version is that he's a Marine Biologist turned Senior Program Manager at Microsoft. He has intimate knowledge of the entire Power Platform and he shares that knowledge and insight.
References made on the show:
- Power Virtual Agents
- Revell Model Ships
- Who Moved My Cheese? By Spencer Johnson, MD
Episode Timeline:
- 3:45 - The remote workplace, it's not going anywhere
- 15:00 - The Microsoft Power Platform explained
- 32:00 - The future of Microsoft
- 40:30 - Microsoft licensing, specifically Power Apps licensing, explained
- 56:00 - Chuck's data journey was a long and winding road
- 1:12:00 - The Dawn of the Citizen Developer
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome, friends. Today's guest is Chuck Sterling, a long time Microsoftie. And he's another one of these people with these really interesting backstories, not one of those deliberate paths where you set out to become something in particular over the course of 10 years and get there, a very jagged, lots of twists and turns, the kind of story we like here at Raw Data. Most recently, Chuck is part of the Power CAT team. And the funny thing about Chuck is that I think he simultaneously manages to be two things that are difficult to be at the same time. He is both a public figure and low profile. How do you do that?
Rob Collie (00:00:35):
For a long time, Chuck ran the MVP program for Power BI. And during that era, he also worked closely with a lot of Microsoft's largest customers in terms of their Power BI adoption. But on the Power CAT team, Chuck is now focused on the other members of the Power platform family, so Power Apps, Power Automate, and the new Power Virtual Agents. We spent quite a bit of time actually focused on that last one because it's new and it's pretty interesting, but all of those fit nicely into theme that we've been talking about for a while on this show, which is that BI is really about ultimately taking action.
Rob Collie (00:01:11):
And it's neat that Chuck has moved from the Power BI side, the more of the taking action side of that equation. That's what this Power platform is turning into. It's a very exciting thing, a very exciting time, and he's right in the middle of all of it. When we finished recording this one, I was convinced that we're going to need to add him to our list of recurring regulars. I hope you find it as stimulating as I did. Let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:35):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:39):
This is the Raw Data, by P3 Adaptive Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your cohost, Thomas Larock. Find out what the experts at P3 Adaptive can do for your business, go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 Adaptive is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:57):
Welcome to the show, Charles "Chuck" Sterling. How are you, man?
Chuck Sterling (00:02:03):
I'm doing good, Rob. Thank you for actually having me. I'm really honored when you actually reached out. It's been way too long. This pandemic is not being great for going out and visiting friends.
Rob Collie (00:02:11):
No, no, it hasn't been so great. I didn't plan to go here, but one of my favorite memories of you is you visiting Indy and not knowing anything about Indy, and asking, "Hey, what should we go to eat?" And you're running down this list of all these nice restaurants. And then right in the middle of this list of nice restaurants, you throw in Steak 'n Shake. You had no idea that was like McDonald's, essentially, right?
Chuck Sterling (00:02:33):
Exactly. From the name, it sounded okay, and it has like a bazillion five out of five thumbs ups. But I am in Indy, so of course.
Rob Collie (00:02:43):
So then we just decided to slum it with the steakhouse and the porterhouse steaks and everything.
Chuck Sterling (00:02:48):
That was not slumming it. The fact that I got to choose my knife. They have the knife drawers, like, "How would you like to cut the meat that you're going to eat?" I'm like, "Oh, I want that one." So yeah, it was fun. And Indy was a lot of fun too. If people haven't been to Indy, I highly recommend it. It's a beautiful city. And if you are a car guy, oh, the airport. I didn't know this going in there, the airport is just full of all this memorabilia. It's actually a really neat city.
Rob Collie (00:03:15):
Yeah. They even rotate those cars. Those Indy cars in the airport are not the permanent installation, that is a revolving collection. It's really fascinating. I haven't been in an airport. Last year was the first year of my adult life that I was never on a plane. I wonder if the cars are even there, I have no idea. Crazy.
Chuck Sterling (00:03:35):
Yeah, me too. Actually, I climbed at an airport coming back from New Zealand and visiting my friends, [inaudible 00:03:41] at their conference, and I also have not been in an airport. I don't think I've told you this, but I am now residing in Florida.
Rob Collie (00:03:46):
What?
Chuck Sterling (00:03:48):
Yeah. I took the pandemic actually as an excuse to go out and live quite remotely, everybody is, and I wanted to pick a warmer climate for the winter. So get this, Rob, I drove 63 hours from Seattle to not be in an airport.
Rob Collie (00:04:03):
Wow. That's dedication. I like it.
Chuck Sterling (00:04:05):
Well, I have two puppies, I have two dogs, so I wasn't going to put them in boxes.
Rob Collie (00:04:09):
So where in Florida?
Chuck Sterling (00:04:11):
Near Key West. We looked all over. Like Donna Saker has been living in Barbados, and I looked at places like Costa Rica and Guatemala. And it turns out if I want fiber optic to the house, if I need to get out of here, I wanted to actually have a continental highway and large airports. This was actually a tropical location that fit all those check boxes. The only downside, of course, is it's not cheap here, they don't give away houses here.
Rob Collie (00:04:36):
Okay. Yeah. I love the Keys. I grew up in Florida.
Chuck Sterling (00:04:40):
I did not know that.
Rob Collie (00:04:41):
And Luke, the silent producer here, he's in Florida right now. That's where he and I met years ago.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:47):
Isn't Luke in Miami, Fort Lauderdale?
Rob Collie (00:04:50):
West Palm. West side.
Chuck Sterling (00:04:51):
West Palm, just up the street. He gets to visit our former president on a regular basis.
Rob Collie (00:04:56):
He does.
Chuck Sterling (00:04:56):
They're tight?
Rob Collie (00:04:57):
They're so tight. Yeah.
Chuck Sterling (00:05:02):
I love the facial expression of Silent Bob, our producer.
Rob Collie (00:05:05):
So tight. Yeah. Like many people in the software and data industry, your start is a marine biologist, right?
Chuck Sterling (00:05:14):
Of course. That's where everybody starts. Without a doubt. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:16):
Microsoft is just kind of like finishing school at that point.
Chuck Sterling (00:05:19):
With a life science degree in Seattle, you were either going to get a job at Boeing or Microsoft, and I'm still hoping for that phone call from Boeing. Any day, it's going to happen.
Rob Collie (00:05:33):
And they're going to say you can't live in Florida anymore. Are you planning to stay in Florida?
Chuck Sterling (00:05:38):
No, we're going to be... Yeah. I'll be snowboarding from here on end. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:42):
Oh, that's fantastic. What a great idea. Someone should think of that, snowboarding in Florida?
Chuck Sterling (00:05:47):
I think lots and lots and lots of people have. Matter of fact, the inventory outside of big cities is just disappearing for real estate. Its mass exodus. And when I came in, my realtor was like, "You'll be like the fifth house I've sold this week, and I don't think there's any other houses for sale on water, etc." So yeah, the inventory in places that people want to go is dried up. Crazy, who would have guessed that this economy was going to happen as a result.
Rob Collie (00:06:14):
Yeah. It's really, really interesting. There's a lot of people collectively holding their breath about downtown real estate in various cities. Now, I have some friends who dabble a little bit in the real estate hedge fund space, and they keep saying, "Oh, this is great news. We're going to be able to gobble stuff up at cut rates." But is it good news? Are you buying low or is commercial real estate going to suffer like a 30% occupancy hit that's relatively permanent? We don't know.
Chuck Sterling (00:06:46):
What is it? Twitter said that they're never going back to their offices. We are now into a July timeframe, and yeah, it's crazy to think of those buildings sitting empty.
Rob Collie (00:06:56):
It's one of those things where it's a debatable thing whether it's better or worse for companies. You could imagine it being one or the other, worse in terms of productivity. There's something about in-person. I think we can all probably agree that productivity is probably a little higher, especially for like software firms, when you can have those face-to-face conversations. There's something inherent about collaboration in that job. At the same time though, your talent base is potentially infinite if you're not geocentric. And then there's the competitive aspect of it as well. Like now, Chuck has tasted the half the year in Florida lifestyle. If they tried to take it back, like, "Hmm." It's one of those genies that can't be put back in the bottle, I think."
Chuck Sterling (00:07:47):
I'm going to hypothesize, some of the productivity hit that we're seeing right now, Rob, is actually based on the fact that the infrastructure that supports people is missing. Let me explain. Like right now I've got a lot of my coworkers who can't take their children to daycare, therefore they are actually minding their children and the infrastructure of having services like mowing their lawns means that they are now their own gardener, etc. So I think if we can get those infrastructure back and we reclaim the time from the commute... You used to live up here, the Pacific Northwest, if you can get that time back into people's portfolios, yes, there's still going to be productivity hit because you're not in-person, granted.
Chuck Sterling (00:08:29):
I think it actually might level itself all out to where it's a similar, really, really close productivity net sum game but a much happier employee because they get to live in Indie and they get to live in West Palm, they get to live in Key West, etc. But that's a hypothesis. I'm guessing [SATI 00:08:49] has actually done some of the numbers like that. I haven't actually done a whole lot of research myself.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:54):
I have strong opinions on working from home.
Chuck Sterling (00:08:57):
Well, do tell.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:58):
After having done it now for 10 years, and even before then, I was at a company where... I'm sorry, I should never shame where I used to work. I knew of a company that-
Chuck Sterling (00:09:10):
I had a friend at a company.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:11):
... that had a policy back in the day, it was you could work at home two days a month. And I thought that was the stupidest thing ever because where I was physically located, I was still supporting offices globally. What did it matter if I was in the office or not? And I didn't need to have access to the data center. If something is wrong with the server, I was still not physically doing anything with it. Anyway, I transitioned when I went to work for Confio. I asked if I had to relocate to Boulder, and they're like, "No, because you're going to be on an airplane most of the time. So it doesn't really matter where you live." I'm like, "Oh, this is great." And when SolarWinds came in, it was the same thing-
Chuck Sterling (00:09:55):
You've realize that's a silver lining in a cloud, right? I don't know if you pick up on that.
Thomas LaRock (00:10:00):
And then when SolarWinds came, I said, "Are you going to make me relocate?" And they're like, "Nah, you should be fine where you are." So the strong feeling I have is, I think there's a lot to do with the individual and their work style. You've hit a lot of good points about the infrastructure things and the stuff that maybe we're doing for ourselves these days. And so it's an adjustment there for everybody. But some people have that style that they need to be able to get up and walk into some of these office or cube and have a face-to-face discussion. That's just how they operate. And sometimes, that's a CEO, which means everybody below him acts like that person because that's the culture, that's a social thing. You can imitate what the boss is doing.
Thomas LaRock (00:10:48):
I'm not that person, I don't need to physically... I prefer the solitude, and I've gotten used to being able to work on my own, set my own schedule. You know what? I promise I'll get you that thing today. I will. It might not happen. What that really means is you'll have it before tomorrow, so you might get at nine o'clock tonight because that's when I'm going to actually have the time to do it. So I think it really comes down to the individual, their work styles, how they feel productive, and are they in a position of influence? And the higher up that person is that says, "Oh, everybody's got to be in the office," then that's what that company ends up doing.
Chuck Sterling (00:11:26):
I'm going to add to that. A piece you didn't mention, that Intel did studies on, it's the team dynamics. So if you have a team that can actually effectively work remotely... I work on a team right now, the Power CAT team, they were remote, and they spend a lot of time going out and doing.... Right now, I'm missing one of their happy hours, right this minute. They really do actually focus on making sure that that communication, that connection is there. And I work on other teams that while they were geo located, they had to have the interaction or they just couldn't work. They're falling apart. They're not doing as well in this world as the other team. The other team was like, "Yeah, this is almost business as usual. Not quite, but almost." So team dynamics.
Chuck Sterling (00:12:09):
When I was in Australia, we all lived in a different state, and still that's a big country. And I know that we were more effective on that team and much, much closer. When we went into that state, we actually stayed at those people's houses and we knew what their wives and their children were doing, and their cats and their dogs, in case of Rob Collie. Yeah, we had that personal connection and we had that sinew between us. And that is actually a big point on these new teams, this new dynamic and this new brave world. So I'm agreeing with you. Yes.
Rob Collie (00:12:39):
The nature of the organization matters a lot and what the kind of work is. For example, our company has been remote since its inception. It has always worked very well for us as a company. To be fair, though, large amount of our work, a disproportionate amount of our work is done on an individual basis. We do collaborate with one another, but each consultants working on their own projects, and sometimes there's a couple of consultants collaborating. But the amount of coordination that's required across consultants is relatively low, it's the low order bit in the equation.
Chuck Sterling (00:13:15):
And it's almost an unblocking, right? It's like, "Hey, I'm just up to this." They don't need to know that the meta around the problem to just say, "Hey, I need to grab an IP address out of this data stream. Hey, do that." And then somebody would be like, "Oh, I've done it."
Rob Collie (00:13:27):
Yeah. We have a whole channel on our Slack for exactly those sorts of like, "Hey, has anybody seen this problem before?" That kind of thing. And so we have a very social culture remotely, but the end of the trenches work. When I was at Microsoft, a couple of the teams that I was on, the developers declared that there were this thing called no-meeting Wednesdays, which was to give them the solitude to execute their jobs without being interrupted and without having to do the context switching, and that made sense. But my job at Microsoft was always coordination. There's nothing I could do on those software teams if my developers were unavailable. So they called it no meeting Wednesdays, I sort of snakily called them no-decision Wednesdays. It was no-progress Wednesdays.
Rob Collie (00:14:18):
At least for me, collaborative meetings are inherently more exhausting remotely than in-person. But something about the in-person version of the collaborative meeting with the physical whiteboard, being in the same space, it at least for me, sustains me energetically and I don't get that over remote. It feels more draining. At our company, I run more of the marketing and growth side of the company as opposed to the operations of the consulting team. And now that we've been building a team recently, we've hired people like Luke, we have a copywriter, we have a designer, we have a full-time web dev.
Rob Collie (00:14:56):
Now I'm back in that spot where like, "Oh, this is a collaborative, build-something-together team. And it's over remote." And I'm feeling that pain again for really the first time in 10 years. Now I'm like, "Okay, now I need to figure out how to operate like this remotely," really for the first time ever.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:14):
I assume Power CAT is the customer team for Power BI.
Chuck Sterling (00:15:20):
When you talk about the Power platform, it's four products, Power BI has their own CAT team, it's the Power BI CAT team. And they actually were created before the Power platform existed. So there is a Power BI CAT team, and it's got some of the best people in the world. It's got Adam Sexton and Patrick Leblanc and Casper and Phil Seamark. If you guys have not had Phil Seamark on there, the guy's just wicked smart. Ted Patterson, actually living in Florida, is on that team. On the other side of the house, which includes the Power Apps, the Power Automate and the Power Virtual Agents, is my team, the Power CAT team.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:54):
So, and just to be clear, because Power is such an overused term, that means you have nothing to do with PowerShell?
Chuck Sterling (00:16:04):
My background is with Excel like Rob, and PowerShell is still my go-to.
Thomas LaRock (00:16:13):
Power is everywhere. So Power CAT, so it's the Power platform. Got it.
Chuck Sterling (00:16:18):
It's the Power platform. It has nothing to do with PowerShell. Exactly right.
Rob Collie (00:16:20):
We are, I think pretty closely associated with the Power platform on this podcast. But we have people listening that don't really know the Microsoft platform, all that well, so let's give them a tour.
Chuck Sterling (00:16:30):
Yeah. And let's give you guys a nod yourself. Before we talk about the technology, let's talk about the motivation or why Microsoft walked down this path, is that we went out and identified a need where there were these people who weren't developers and yet they were maybe more technical than an information worker. I don't know if of any of these people, Rob, you may have worked with a couple of these.
Rob Collie (00:16:52):
Just a few.
Chuck Sterling (00:16:53):
A couple here or there. And we identified a need where they needed the tools to make themselves more successful. And the first of those tools was in, Rob's space. Actually, how do you make a data analyst out of an Excel practitioner? How do you give them access to big, big data? So the first one of these was before Power platform got created, and that was Power BI. And we're like, "Hey, this not just works, this is taking the world by storm. Who else needs this sort of metaphor?" And I don't know if you guys know my background between the marine biology and where I'm at now, I actually worked on a little product called Visual Studio and the .Net Framework.
Chuck Sterling (00:17:32):
And James Phillips went out and said, "If it works for data analysts, we can do this for developers." We've taken a couple of runs at it before, we had light switch, the info path. And again, I don't mean any grimaces here, but we've taken some runs out, and James has that a track record of getting done and actually delivering the goods. He says, "We can do it. This is the time." So he went out and actually said, "Let's take everything that Visual Studio has got and give that to "our makers" or our citizen developers, if you will.
Chuck Sterling (00:18:02):
But the Excel users, Rob's family, if you will, so Power Apps and Power Automate or the second two, and actually for a while, Power platform was just three products. And if you haven't played with Power Apps, Power Apps is a way of actually doing UIs in interaction of an application. Power Automate is, how do you automate tasks and drive a lot of that UI. Again, a lot of my Power Apps are nothing more than calling those flows from Power Automate. A canonical example I give is that when I'm driving home, I would actually want the garage door opener to go out and turn on my stove, turn on my thermostat, and maybe turn on my TV.
Chuck Sterling (00:18:48):
And that's actually something all you can do with the SDKs, the garage door openers and the Samsung stoves and whatnot. I can also create an application in Power Apps on my phone to have hit a button to actually do that maybe three or four miles out. That's actually three of the technologies. Any guesses as to what the last one is? You guys have been tracking us at all? That's an interesting world. I'm excited about that last fourth piece of the Power platform.
Rob Collie (00:19:13):
You mentioned it earlier, Power Virtual Agents. Is that what we're talking about?
Chuck Sterling (00:19:17):
Yeah, that's exactly it. I hadn't realized that I had mentioned it.
Rob Collie (00:19:20):
You gave us the answer and then asked us the question. That's very kind of you.
Chuck Sterling (00:19:25):
I'm nice that way. But yeah, the way of actually creating chatbots. So if you've ever gone in and said, "What's your problem today?" "It's my flight's delayed or my airplane's missing," or whatever the case is, and you get an automated response, this is a way of... Literally, when we can talk about no code, by far, it is the closest that we've got to delivering on that Power platform promise, if you will. In Power BI, there's M an DAX that you sometimes have to devolve into the UI just doesn't have everything. In my world, there's a Power Apps script language that you actually go out and automate your buttons with.
Chuck Sterling (00:20:03):
Like if you want to say, hello world, you actually have to go out and set the property to say hello world. Power Automate has its own expression language that you will generally get into. No, that's not true with Power Virtual Agents, you go out and create these topics that have interaction and it's really, really well done. Hats off to the team. If you have a play with it, I'm going to give myself a little bit of shout or the team a shout out, it's aka.ms/TryPVA.
Rob Collie (00:20:27):
Try PBA?
Chuck Sterling (00:20:29):
PVA, Power Virtually.
Rob Collie (00:20:32):
PVA. Okay.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:33):
Chuck, just hear me out. You're inside Microsoft, you have some influence, if you need some product ideas... Yeah, yeah, you do, shaking his head. Just hear me out, few thoughts for you, Power Kubernetes, just think of it.
Chuck Sterling (00:20:49):
You have containers?
Thomas LaRock (00:20:50):
Yup. Power blockchain. These are ideas that would make billions of dollars and offer nothing of value to the world.
Rob Collie (00:20:59):
Power stocks, just chew on that.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:03):
Just put power in front of anything and print money.
Chuck Sterling (00:21:07):
Making blockchains easier to use, you promise that it won't actually solve any problems or give the world value? I'm going to question that, but power containers and making those easier, maybe, I don't know. It seems like with the cloud, that's actually something that will just get solved just by nature of how you're using it. I'd like to say that when you go out and hit the run in any of our products, we can take care of if we have to do containerization for you.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:37):
Or things like power no SQL, or how about just power agile?
Rob Collie (00:21:41):
That covers a lot of ground there.
Chuck Sterling (00:21:42):
I worked on the dot-net world where everything got dot-net in front of it for a little while.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:46):
Yeah. So you had told me that story how you were the initial release for dot-net, right?
Chuck Sterling (00:21:52):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:53):
You were the program manager or?
Chuck Sterling (00:21:54):
Product manager.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:56):
Product manager.
Chuck Sterling (00:21:56):
So Rob, I was on the dark side of the house for that one. So there's program managers who own features and schedules and product managers generally own a business stream or a cost center, if you will. And so I actually was on the business side, I got to play on the technical community side of that house. Literally, I was in the marketing side of the world at that point. A brief way, it was interesting, I learned a lot, got to pick up a lot of airplane miles. So if that's good, then it was.
Rob Collie (00:22:28):
I don't want to lose the thread about Power Virtual Agents. Can we go back for a moment?
Thomas LaRock (00:22:32):
Of course.
Rob Collie (00:22:33):
I would like you to object. So what will they do for me? What gap does that fill in the world's needs?
Chuck Sterling (00:22:40):
Power Apps enables you to have a metaphor if you know what the application looks like and you know what your customers or your constituents or your coworkers need. You've sat down even if it's in a bar napkin over dinner like me and you did and withdrew some things out and it has buttons and drop downs and whatnot. What about the case where I want to answer the questions and I'm not positive what it needs to look like, and I'm actually not positive what information they need. So for instance, you might actually create at your company a one to apply for leave chat bot, go out and say, "Hey, how do you apply for leave?"
Chuck Sterling (00:23:17):
Then it goes out and gives them one link. And what you do is you look at the topics and you say, "Hey, wait a minute, they're actually asking things about babysitting or they're asking about new computers, let's add those topics." Now, you're actually learning from what the topics were and they're adding that value. But the UI for them actually still stays a natural language interaction, where they went out and asked a question, "Hey, Rob, how do I get a new laptop based on the company budget?" And then pretty soon you see the next question is, how do I do my gasoline expenses?
Chuck Sterling (00:23:51):
For you, you don't have to actually rewrite a new screen, you don't have to code new buttons, you just add a new topic.
Rob Collie (00:23:56):
I see. That's cool. So is there always a chat bot front end? Is that consistent?
Chuck Sterling (00:24:01):
Yeah. That is actually what they're delivering. Let's talk about it at a philosophical level right now is that typing is certainly one medium that people interact with. And I don't know that we've done announcements in other spaces, but let's imagine if you will, how else might I interact with this? I think, what are we doing right now? We're not typing, we are doing what?
Rob Collie (00:24:20):
We're talking, we're speaking, conversing.
Chuck Sterling (00:24:22):
We're talking, we are conversing. So it seems like if you actually have the intelligence in the back end to go out and parse words and then go out and give responses, that's the next logical progression. So you can go out, and I'm not here to do disclosure, I'm not here to do announcements, but there's natural evolution in that space.
Rob Collie (00:24:42):
Yeah. We don't want you to disclose any secrets here today, but can you tell us some secrets?
Chuck Sterling (00:24:46):
Yeah, absolutely. How would you like me to break into jail? How would you like to chat-retire today?
Rob Collie (00:24:54):
We don't want that.
Chuck Sterling (00:24:55):
I actually I've been downloading cool feature that you guys would be very interested in, and I got blessing from the Power BI team to actually go out and demo this is that, you've probably seen my demo where I go out and put a Power app and set a Power BI report so you could go out and update your underlying data set or add your data. You've probably seen that. Now, what I just started demoing this week for the first time, and these aren't builds that are available yet, this is actually still pretty rough, is that if I order to go out and add that Power app inside of a Power BI report, I'm actually generally pushing or editing one record. Just the one I'm looking at or the one I want to update, or the one I want to add.
Chuck Sterling (00:25:37):
Now, there's lots of use cases where your guys' company, maybe you guys have actually decided that these customers need a discount or these customers you're going to go out and defer their billing for whatever reason and you want to email all of them and oh, maybe they're just delinquent and you want to email all of them and say, "Hey, could you actually just pay your bill." Having a Power app that you go out and click on the button says, "Send email, send email is not the best solution for that." So what we're actually doing is giving a new type of button inside of Power BI that lets you call one of those flows from Power Automate, passing in the entire dataset, and then letting you iterate through like a whole bunch of garage door openers had just been clicked, turn on stove at this guy's house, turn on stove at that guy's house and do whatever the right steps were.
Rob Collie (00:26:20):
Sounds like Obi-Wan Kenobi quotes. I just had this vision of millions of garage doors all closing at once and then suddenly going silent. There you go. The ultimate power in the universe, that one button
Chuck Sterling (00:26:35):
That's where I met you is actually the dark force of data analytics. What was the name of that title? That's actually the first time I ever saw you present?
Rob Collie (00:26:44):
The Data Insights Conference?
Chuck Sterling (00:26:46):
Yes, but it was actually titled like the dark force of-
Rob Collie (00:26:49):
Oh, right, The Dark Matter. The Dark Matter for BI Project.
Chuck Sterling (00:26:52):
The Dark Matter. Thank you.
Rob Collie (00:26:53):
The Dark Matter for BI Project is The Communication.
Chuck Sterling (00:26:55):
And you had lots of Star Wars references and the dark matter presentation.
Rob Collie (00:26:58):
Oh yeah. Those jokes always only like land with like 30% of the crowd. It's like, "I'm at a data conference." The right room?
Chuck Sterling (00:27:11):
Is this my cab, hello?
Rob Collie (00:27:13):
That's right. Some of the things you were saying about the success that Power BI had on behalf of the citizen developer, and you've seen my trap that I lay for people in my presentations where I ask them what the number one programming language, most popular programming language in the world is, and everyone guesses Java and all of that. And eventually I spring it on them that it's Excel formulas. They pass the test of, they are programming language, they're just hiding in plain sight.
Chuck Sterling (00:27:39):
Number one BI feature all applications have is?
Rob Collie (00:27:42):
Export to Excel.
Chuck Sterling (00:27:43):
Export to Excel. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:27:46):
It's actually like any application that has anything to do with data. That's the button that gets worn out. The label gets worn off over time here, so much erosion.
Chuck Sterling (00:27:53):
I was almost able to not use Omniture because they move that button. It's like, "Oh, oh, what happened here? Oh, oh."
Rob Collie (00:27:59):
We just had Bill Jelen, MrExcel on. And I've known this guy for a long time, we've been business partners for a long time and friends for a long time. And even I didn't know that he started his career as an export to spreadsheet guy making reports out of the expensive six-figure reporting system that didn't do what it was supposed to do. And he was exporting to Lotus.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:23):
He was Mister Lotus 1, 2, 3.
Rob Collie (00:28:24):
Yeah. He was only like three years into Excel when he launched his site. It was really fascinating. But I think of Bill as an accounting guy almost, and that is where he worked, but he was a BI backstop. He was the black market BI guy, the export to Excel, they just didn't call it Excel back then.
Chuck Sterling (00:28:43):
Ken Puls has got the same background.
Rob Collie (00:28:45):
Isn't that crazy?
Chuck Sterling (00:28:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:28:46):
And Ken is a developer's developer.
Chuck Sterling (00:28:50):
He's become one.
Rob Collie (00:28:52):
Yeah. He is now. We have a joke at our house, if I bring like a new device home or something like that, I got this new heater for our garage and it's a beast. And I look at my kids and my wife and I say, "Hey you know what I found this on?" And they all know, they look back at me and they said, "Did you find that on the not effing around aisle at the store?" Well, Ken's parents found him on the not effing around aisle. He's in our gun sites for a future recording.
Chuck Sterling (00:29:21):
You have to bring him in.
Rob Collie (00:29:22):
I can describe the way that I observe Microsoft in two different stories, it depends upon who I'm talking to, which story I'll use. So I'll tell you both of them. One version of this story is that I try not to be tainted or confused by the information that Microsoft produces or that other people in the community. I just try to like filter all that out and look at like, watch what the person's chest is doing because that's where they're headed, all those pump fakes with the head and the hands and everything. They can fool you with that, but if you look at their chest, that doesn't lie. So I watch Microsoft that way.
Chuck Sterling (00:29:55):
How do you get that signal? It's great to say that, but how do you get that signal? I'm genuinely curious because I've been looking for that, I've only been working here for what, 28 years. I'm still looking for, how do you focus on the chest?
Rob Collie (00:30:06):
You know this, I don't have anything that's going to light you up, but always watch what they do and not what they say. The mouth is easy. For example, you don't have to confirm or deny any of this, but I was laughing my head off the whole time years ago when Microsoft was saying, "We're not deprecating MDX, we're not moving on. We're not moving on from multidimensional. No, no, no." But then you go and you look and you see all the stuff that they were doing wasn't supporting it. And I'm like, "See, they haven't pulled the plug on it. It's still a good product, it's still doing things for people. It's just that investment in it has stopped."
Rob Collie (00:30:45):
And so that's all that really matters the end game action. Of course, the other way to describe this perspective is like I'm lazy or I'm not out there consuming all this information all the time. It's like a slow cooked meal, I don't come up with observations about what's going on with any pace or any frequency, but as the slow picture starts to evolve, the way you described it as exactly what I've been conjecturing is going on is that we look, we went and we did for all that modeling and for ETL, we came up with citizen developer Excel crowd focus technologies that bring a lot of that industrial strength power of the traditional world, the traditional IT world to these people.
Rob Collie (00:31:31):
And it has been such a smashing success, I completely agree. Once I saw what it looked like, I bet my future career on it, I went all in. So to see Microsoft now going, "Well, that was a good trick. What else can we do that trick with?" I have been thinking that that's the game, but one particular thing I want to get into with you as a central figure in the Power platform world is this thing that we talked about with Lori, the Gartner VP that we had on a few weeks back, this is another part of me reading the external tea leaves of what's going on at Microsoft. I'm going to name drop.
Rob Collie (00:32:08):
I have bounced this off of James Phillips in email. He listened to that one section of the podcast and gave the thumbs up like, "Yeah, that's what we're doing." I felt very validated at that moment. But all these things are interrelated. It's not just that there's areas, they're domains that a citizen developer population can colonize, that's a theme that unites them for sure, but these things aren't in their own worlds. They actually interact and overlap with one another quite a bit. And that I think is unrecognized genius of what you all are up to.
Rob Collie (00:32:40):
Again, as a like a practiced observer of Microsoft, I'm looking around, I'm looking at Microsoft, then I look over at their competitors, then I look back at Microsoft, I look back at their competitors and I stay looking at their competitors and I go, "Oh, you're in trouble. Microsoft has got mate-in-five," to you use a chess metaphor. It's like, it hasn't happened yet, but it's coming.
Chuck Sterling (00:33:07):
Yeah. As you mentioned, it lives in a continuum. That's actually the where we're actually now not refocusing, but additionally are adding into our repertoire of offerings. If you go out and take a look at our old Power BI messaging, it's about self-service, self-service, self-service, citizen developer, you could be your own data analysts and these were very Excel focused. And if you go out and take a look at the chest now, to use your metaphor, I like that metaphor by the way, where's that chest looking at? What are the new features that we're delivering? And it's actually going back to that enterprise integration. How do I actually put it back into the hands of our traditional VBAs?
Chuck Sterling (00:33:45):
What am I talking about? I'm talking about well, premium capacity, I'm talking about data flows. All the Power query stuff that you did, now I can actually hand them as an end point, or I'm just going to start pumping it back into your analysis cube or your data lake. So Power BI is actually now got this whole grow-up story called enterprise BI as part of that self-service and Power Apps has picked up exact same charter in the last semester where we're actually really focusing on, how do we not just make the maker successful, but have a grub story where we can hand it off to the development team?
Chuck Sterling (00:34:20):
So go out and look at the big announcements that we've actually made this month was, "Hey, inside of your Power Automate flow, you can actually now do check-ins to get hub and to create new repositories." That's clearly not a maker story, but that was actually a big feature. The other biggest feature that we had last month was the ability to go out and use visual studio code to parse your applications. Those are not maker features. What they are is makers have got it to the line it now works, how do I hand it out to my operations to operationalize it and make sure that it actually does safe and accessible in all the right ticks now that it actually has all the domain knowledge?
Chuck Sterling (00:35:00):
So you're definitely calling it correct in that. Yes, we want to enable those people, but we want to enable a grub story as well. So there's where our chest is pointing, I think, at least looking at my dev team.
Rob Collie (00:35:12):
Yeah. You look around and you see the absolute top end monster experts from the previous MDX world, and they're happily slinging DAX on a daily basis now. These are people who would be Olympic gold medal contenders if all that data modeling were an Olympic sport. And we're teaching that same language to the citizen developer, to the Excel crowd. I guess it's really, really cool. Whether you're the citizen developer turns into Marco Russo or Alberto Ferrari someday, it doesn't matter, every now and then one of them does. But the important thing is that language doesn't have to be rewritten or re-understood or re-imagined if it experiences a grow-up transition.
Rob Collie (00:35:59):
And that's a really big deal. When I was on the Excel team and we would visit Wall Street, one of the things we would get every single trip we go out there, we'll get the same request, which was, "Have you guys got something that will take an Excel spreadsheet and like convert it to C or C# or C++?"
Chuck Sterling (00:36:18):
Repeat after me, Excel is not a database.
Rob Collie (00:36:22):
That's right. So what they were doing was they were hiring all of these the quants, the stats people, whatever that would build these just absolutely insane Excel models, and now they want to run them on a server. So in some sense, this Excel model that had been built, you could think of it as a specification, like a very, very, very precise specification for an enterprise app. You'd think that'd be a gift like, "Hey, you can even test it. You got edge cases, go back to the original and ask it what it does," all that kind of stuff. And yet the innards of that thing are so complicated and written in a language that is completely foreign to IT that is a non-starter to convert this thing.
Rob Collie (00:37:09):
And so that's why that thing kept coming up. And so that example looms over my head every time I'm thinking about DAX and its grow-up story, it's not a rewrite. Maybe there's some formulas that IT looks at and goes, "Oh, we can make that more efficient," or something like that.
Chuck Sterling (00:37:23):
It's a tuning process, it's not a recreation. Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:37:27):
That's also following those same responsible paths. So the underlying you get really down closer to the metal, whatever codes being really built behind the scenes, it's enterprise grade.
Chuck Sterling (00:37:39):
That's right. One of our primary missions is called development is a team sport. And it's actually to make sure and enable those fusion teams across larger enterprises grow these applications up. They're not the access to of yesteryear that people will have to go out and fare out, you know the challenges that Access to credit and that they were just get pocketed away and solve problems, but they didn't have a way of actually growing up into a big story.
Rob Collie (00:38:06):
You mentioned access, I have to ask you, have you crossed paths ever with Howie Dickerman?
Chuck Sterling (00:38:11):
I have, yeah. I interacted with them quite a bit when I was in the Power BI team. And matter of fact, he's delivering for Ken Puls at the Vancouver User Group this month. So yeah.
Rob Collie (00:38:21):
Oh, that's fantastic. Part of me imagines that the universe wouldn't be able tolerate the two of you in the same room. There's like too much directness in one place and an obsession with fishing and boats at the same time, I just imagined the two of you hanging out all the time.
Chuck Sterling (00:38:39):
Separate buildings and I guess not enough overlap business-wise. I know what he does. I track him and I've actually gone out and praised him in some of my events, but as far as being in the same room, I don't know if that's ever happened.
Rob Collie (00:38:55):
Well, let's not take that chance, okay?
Chuck Sterling (00:38:56):
Yeah, yeah, of course. That's crossing the streams in Ghostbusters. That's not fair.
Rob Collie (00:38:59):
That's right. Did you know that he had like this completely, when he was working on the Excel team, he had this landing craft, it's like all aluminum landing craft boat built just for him, and he had a business called Illuminator because it was an aluminum boat? He was like towing boats in distress out in the San Juan Islands and running fairies of motorcycles and stuff over to the islands and everything, just seems like-
Chuck Sterling (00:39:23):
We probably hang out in different financial circles. My boats tend to come in boxes that say Revell on them.
Rob Collie (00:39:33):
Yeah, he's a long timer, he's been at Microsoft a very long time.
Chuck Sterling (00:39:37):
I have two, but my first stock option was zero, and I don't know if you'd multiply zero by a whole bunch of numbers, Tom, you got to help me out with the math, it gets complicated for a marine biologist, it's still not a real big number.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:48):
So it's a lot of zeros after a number, are you talking just zero?
Chuck Sterling (00:39:52):
Yeah. It was a whole number. It was an ant of zero.
Rob Collie (00:39:57):
You know what they say, zero here, zero there, sooner or later, it adds up to real nothing.
Chuck Sterling (00:40:05):
My last boat cost $100, and the one before that I bought for a dollar. I'm certainly Craigslist aficionado, apparently.
Rob Collie (00:40:14):
I think he even sold as his custom boat that was like the most exciting thing that ever happened to him at the time. He was like, "Ah, I got rid of it."
Chuck Sterling (00:40:20):
Yeah. And that's the old joke, because one of the two most exciting time in a man's life is the day he buys a boat, and then of course the day he sells the boat.
Rob Collie (00:40:28):
True. True. Well, he's had both. He's gone full cycle. So can we talk about Power Apps licensing?
Chuck Sterling (00:40:35):
I'm not a licensing person, but sure, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:40:37):
Neither am I, really. Microsoft software licensing is famously byzantine and there are people who actually identify as professionals that all they do is navigate Microsoft licensing. We need Power Microsoft licensing. That's the next citizen developer frontier.
Chuck Sterling (00:40:54):
We need licensing MVPs to get by those guys capes.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:57):
I think they're called lawyers.
Rob Collie (00:40:58):
Power of blockchain, that's a good idea, but I'd push it down the stack one notch, get the Power licensing in there. I've only got a vague sense of this. I'm far enough removed from the actual tech implementations these days. I don't tend to personally and run up against the actual licensing obstacles and things like that. But one of the things that struck me is I've now heard from a few different people who are reasonably significant paying customers of things like Power BI, who can't use Power Apps because there isn't a breaking point for them that's smooth in terms of the pricing.
Rob Collie (00:41:39):
That might even be old stories at this point. All of those people might've found solutions by now, there might've been even changes. Is there anything going on there that has addressed that? Are you even familiar with what I'm talking about?
Chuck Sterling (00:41:52):
Yeah, yeah. I'm, again, not a licensing person, but let's recap what some of our peers have done and that we're being compared to, because that's actually important. Power BI and SQL Server, you go out and buy an instance sort of thing. I'm talking about premium here. And I then go out and dole it out as much as I bought. So if I bought a Greyhound bus worth, I could go out and put a Greyhound bus worth of people. Or actually, I can put a lot more than a Greyhound bus worth people, I just hope to God they never try to get all on the bus at the same time. So that's actually a capacity model.
Chuck Sterling (00:42:26):
And again, it's something that we're familiar with, we're accustomed to, and I think we've actually trained our customers to do that. Power Apps has gone much more like what your team has done when they went into the cloud, and they have a per user license. So if you want to use Excel as Rob Collie, you get an Excel license. For Power Apps, we actually have a per user license. So if you want to use Power Apps, I can actually go ahead and license it for me, Chuck, and Tom and Luke, we could actually go out and get them a Power Apps license, just like Excel.
Chuck Sterling (00:42:59):
What's happening is, those companies are going out and saying, "Well, hang on, that's more than me being able to put the entire state of Michigan on this bus for the cost of just one bus. Yeah, I should have bought 20 buses, but they're never all there at the same time, and I'll go ahead and take the hit when they are." So what we've also done is we've actually added this notion of licensing an application. I can actually have people at the application get registered. And again, people are going out and try to compare it to a SQL server capacity, or if you translate it to an Excel or a Word or a E3, E5, then it actually makes a little bit more sense.
Chuck Sterling (00:43:43):
Where it gets challenging for me, and you've seen my demos, you actually see that I actually often have turducken. You're smiling so you know what I'm talking about. I often have turducken where I go out and I'll start my journey with Excel, and that's an E3, E5, and then I'll actually go into Power BI, and that's now a Power BI user or a premium. And then I use Power Apps, and now I'm in Power Apps. And I use Power Automate and I use a lot of it, and there's a capacity for that. And then I actually go out and show AI builder to do sentiment analysis. Or actually, what's the one I've been using? Classification. I'll use data classification. That's actually the one that excites me a lot right now
Chuck Sterling (00:44:21):
And that is yet an additional license. And if I'm counting them right, I think I'm up to five, and I didn't try very hard. And I haven't got a PVA chatbot on there. Because you often decide, I want to build it to answer questions on, "Hey, how does this application work? Or what does this acronym mean?" Or whatever the case is. And that's a sixth license. I've been talking with Charles Ramona in my organization, and he understands that there's a problem. And what he is actually got his business people doing is going, do we go back into an Azure sort of paradigm or does he actually go and follow suit with maybe suite of Office?
Chuck Sterling (00:45:01):
And they're looking at both. They want to actually talk to the customers and actually deliver the needs, but there are too many licenses, it is too complicated, especially when you do the turducken marriage. I don't think anybody's going to be confused at, what is this feedback you're getting, Rob? I hear on a regular basis, and I think it's when people start going out and compairing Power Apps to a SQL server at $10 a month for everybody I can possibly add onto it.
Rob Collie (00:45:28):
Yeah. I'm sympathetic with this, again, as a former insider. People outside the company, it's hard for them to truly put themselves in the other chair and see it from the other side. First of all, the fact that there is such complaint or difficulty, first of all, you've got to take it as a compliment.
Chuck Sterling (00:45:49):
Yes. They want it.
Rob Collie (00:45:51):
They want it.
Chuck Sterling (00:45:52):
If it was silence, then you have a much bigger problem.
Rob Collie (00:45:55):
That's right. That's right. So, by advancing to this stage of griping about it, we're already saying, "Hey, this is hot. We really like this. And it's a shame that there are these odd pricing inflection points or cliffs that you've.... " Sometimes it's not even just the money, sometimes it's the people who need it aren't the ones that negotiate the deal with Microsoft, and so there's a political problem. They've got to go get someone's attention at their company and say, "Listen, we need you to go buy this for us." And they're like, "Nah, I feel pretty non-helpful today." There's a lot of silos and things like that that end up standing in the way.
Chuck Sterling (00:46:33):
At your company, how many times do you work with the marketing division and they're like, "We're in. We're willing to write the check. It's done." And they're like, "Ah, you need to talk to your tenant administrator and hand them the check so they can actually go out and spin it up." And they're like, "Oh, that gets hard. That gets hard. There's no check big enough to make those guys do what I want."
Rob Collie (00:46:54):
Yeah. In the early days of the Power BI cloud service, it felt like an act of God to get someone to go add the DNS records to light up Power BI for that domain.
Chuck Sterling (00:47:04):
You know what's funny, is one of my most read blog posts when I had to move from MSDN to my personal blog is buying an Azure Power BI Embedded skew. Not because they wanted to do embedding, but rather these are internal people where that were buying it to actually get premium capacities because we can't. We could not inside of Microsoft get the tenant administrator to actually back bill it to a particular business group. So I look at all this traffic and I get all these questions, and they're all with @microsoft.com. Matter of fact, I got another one last night.
Chuck Sterling (00:47:36):
And this blog post is like four years old. They're like, "Hey, in this picture of your Azure tenant, how do I actually go ahead and add my Power BI apps?" Again, it's just because it enables all of those features, but using an Azure subscription model, which of course anybody with a credit card can spin up.
Rob Collie (00:47:56):
Yeah. It's so funny how like just internal bureaucracy, even if there is an outright opposition to something, the amount of inertia, it's just like, "No, we give up."
Chuck Sterling (00:48:11):
My wife works at SAP, and between the two of us, we have some interesting pillow talk about who had the hardest time to get the simplest thing done. I want to say it's a push. I was going to say, I think she may win having a little bit more, she come in from the concur side of the business and they're actually, we're doing things a little bit more streamlined. They're now SAP, SAP, so I think it's a push now, but yeah, it's funny.
Rob Collie (00:48:40):
There's no project more unending than an SAP implementation. The old BI projects, the traditional BI projects that I like to make fun of, and they're not really old, they're still happening, unfortunately. The world has recognized the new way is better, but that doesn't mean that they're doing the new way exclusively. I still think the old way, we've got some work to do. Even those old traditional BI projects, those things seem fast compared to an SAP rollout. There's The Dutch House saying about soccer. Of course, it gets lost in translation and then Rob retells it and it's even worse.
Rob Collie (00:49:20):
It's something like, "Soccer is a beautiful game that goes on for 90 minutes, and in the end, the Germans win." And I saw someone skew riff on that years ago and said, "ERP is an implementation that goes on for years and years, and in the end, the Germans win."
Chuck Sterling (00:49:37):
Yeah. Pretty appropriate, actually.
Rob Collie (00:49:40):
Who knows whether that applies to internal operation of the actual software company. It's tempting for me to theorize that their internal workings mirror what their projects feel like, but that's probably not true.
Chuck Sterling (00:49:52):
I guess I could probably go out and posturize a big, company's a big company's a big company. I don't know if there's a whole lot that actually get to act as startups after certain size.
Rob Collie (00:50:01):
Yeah. One of the first things that Bill John and I bonded over was all of his perfectly rational conspiracy theories about like why Microsoft did something X, Y, Z. And my answer was always, Nope, nope, just stupid big company politics," or just stupid big company bureaucracy, not even politics. And it was like my answer to everything like, "No, there's a really dumb, stupid reason for all of this."
Chuck Sterling (00:50:23):
Never apply malice where ignorance is just as easy to explain. I think it's the Occam's razor of industry.
Rob Collie (00:50:30):
Yeah. And it doesn't matter how smart the people are that you comprise the big organization of, every organization's got different incentives, and so they all end up pulling in different directions and the rest is predictable.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:43):
So you guys actually have met?
Chuck Sterling (00:50:45):
Yes. I don't know if Charles remembers or not, but you guys came up and did a bootcamp at the Commons. Is that where we met, Tom?
Thomas LaRock (00:50:56):
No, you came down and did the keynote at SQL Live in Orlando for me Andrew Brust, that's where you and I first met.
Chuck Sterling (00:51:02):
Got it. And actually, I was just starting to play with Power Apps at that point, so I snuck over... You had a parallel track, and I was actually hanging out over there as much. And what we did, and I regret to this day, I think, was we went out and used buttons in Power BI and recreated all of PowerPoint. So everything that we showed was a Power BI page and we actually navigated everything, including the animations, using Power BI buttons. And then what I also did, and it's actually probably the coolest demo. So the demo I wish I did more of was, how do you go out and talk about the cost of performance? This is actually really cool.
Chuck Sterling (00:51:42):
So if your website, Rob, is five seconds slower, how much does that cost? And it turns out what I was able to do is I actually grabbed the application insight data off of a real website, it was actually use some PowerBI.tips, and you know Mike Carlo and Seth Bauer, I don't know if the you know boys up in Wisconsin. And did a little bit of modeling in saying, they sell ads, and by having a page render a little bit faster, they're able to sell this many more ads. And then what I was able to do is grab the pricing dynamically using M from the Azure pricing page, and then slide up and down the different SQL capacities to serve pages faster or slower.
Chuck Sterling (00:52:23):
Because it turns out, most websites are a direct result of how fast your database actually serves the data. This isn't going to come as any surprise. The faster your database, the faster you can serve a page, but are you going to buy SSD Z series for every single page? Does it prove the price. Does it actually make it more cost effective? So using application insights, the Azure pricing, and a little bit of modeling, I was able to go out and say, "Hey, if we slide it to the G series of Azure SQL capacity, this is actually how much we're getting and this is actually how much we're losing in terms of pricing.
Chuck Sterling (00:52:58):
And that was actually the demo that we did, and I was able to actually show that with real websites, real pricing, and a little bit of modeling on their ads that they were selling. And of course, the easier thing would be to do on a real website would be, how often are they clicking on buy or seek engagement or whatever the case is for your business rather than selling ads. But the model is actually no more complicated. Does that make sense?
Thomas LaRock (00:53:25):
Yeah, I was there, so it makes sense.
Chuck Sterling (00:53:27):
No, I was asking, Rob. I don't know that I've ever seen a demo that goes out and shows the cost of performance or the value of performance.
Rob Collie (00:53:36):
That's really neat. It's almost like using solver. It's an optimization problem? Where's the peak, the relative maximum?
Chuck Sterling (00:53:45):
It's right. And I had different pages, and they obviously had different loads, and I could actually go out and start factoring that across into different instances. So we could actually go out and use your solver metaphor to say, "If I take these three pages and put it on this instance, I then actually can go out and save the company a lot of money because they're easy to solve, their static," or whatever the case is. So yeah, that's exactly what it was. And I showed it using all of these tools. My application of sites in Azure is really isn't, but I think it is actually well within the realm of people that implement telemetry on their application. And I could have probably used Google Analytics as well.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:23):
So what I'm waiting for is the cost of a query. And I don't know why we don't have it yet because I know all that data exists inside of SQL database, especially depending upon the cost model with like DTUs. So the idea is you should be able to look at your bill. And right now, I can look at the bill and it can tell me how much that SQL database costs me for the month. But I'm like, "No, no, break it down. What were my top 10 expensive queries, dollars?" Because then you could look and you can optimize for costs and say, "Hey, I don't need to run that query 1,000 times, I just need to run it once, store it in cache somewhere and serve it up that way." And I don't know why we don't have that yet. I really don't.
Chuck Sterling (00:55:02):
Azure monitoring doesn't show me SQL queries.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:05):
But it could.
Chuck Sterling (00:55:05):
It could, I'm just saying that if I had Azure monitoring wired up, we could do that right now today, I wouldn't even need the bill for that.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:12):
In SQL database, of course, there's the query store. It's just a blending of two data sets, that's all it is. You're Microsoft, you have all the data.
Rob Collie (00:55:22):
Unite the clans. Unite us.
Chuck Sterling (00:55:24):
And you can save somebody, I don't want to throw any names out, but some of the big players, you can probably save them millions of dollars by going... Seems like there's might be some smart data guys, entrepreneurs that are looking for that next chapter. Anyways.
Rob Collie (00:55:40):
I don't know what you're talking about there.
Chuck Sterling (00:55:42):
I have no idea what we're talking about.
Rob Collie (00:55:43):
Yeah. And these citizen developers that you're talking about, these Excel people who are really good at spreadsheets, it's a pleasant fiction, isn't it?
Thomas LaRock (00:55:51):
I'm just a data janitor, I don't know much.
Rob Collie (00:55:55):
On the personal front. How did you go from being the marine biologist out in the, what, Bering Sea?
Chuck Sterling (00:56:01):
Yeah, like I said, super, super as easy. If you are in Seattle with a life science degree, literally there's only two places you're going to get a job.
Rob Collie (00:56:09):
Well, wait, wait, wait. One of them apparently was on a boat in the Bering Sea. So we're already at three. You decided you did didn't want to be out in the Bering Sea anymore? How did that even just personally-
Chuck Sterling (00:56:21):
So Oregon State University, I have a marine biology degree. I've got this sheepskin... And what is interesting is that while I was getting this degree at Oregon State, I was actually running a saw mill at a Douglas County Forest Products. It's now warehouser mill. So I was running a saw at night to pay for my college. I was pulling down $65,000 a year at that point. I was driving a 280Z, I had ski boat, and going to college. I wasn't sleeping a whole lot, but I'd given up on that for the most part. And then I get this degree and I'm like, "I'm going to make some real money now. I'm big time." And I went out and the best job I could find was working for National Marine and Fisheries, part of NOAA, at 100 bucks a day. So I dropped down to $36,000 a year from 65.
Chuck Sterling (00:57:05):
So I basically halved my salary, and now I'm on a steel can with a whole bunch of people I really didn't want to get to know, 30, 40 days straight, back to back to back. And by the time you got off that boat, you were almost damaged goods, you weren't the same person as when you got on that boat. So I'm like, "Okay, this isn't working out. We need to do something different than this." So I'm like, "Okay, where can I take Chuck's degree in the Pacific Northwest?" And I looked at the help wanted daily, and the big money at that point was Oracle DBAs, they were just killing it. I'm like, "How do I get to do that?" It's like, "Clearly, I need to figure out this software."
Chuck Sterling (00:57:46):
The reason my degree is a marine biology and not oceanography, Rob, is because the marine biology degree did not require a single computer class. Oceanography required one computer class, that's why I don't have an oceanography... So that's worked out well for me. And now I'm looking at, "Okay, I've got to get in the software industry. Where do I do that? Hey, there's this Micro Serve thing in Seattle, I'm going to go apply there." So I go from 65 to 36,000, and they offer me my first job supporting at Excel at about half of my NOAA job. I'm pretty certain that if I had actually got a job where I was asking, "Do you want fries with that?" I would've been making more at my first Microsoft job with how many stock options, Tom?
Thomas LaRock (00:58:31):
I believe there was zero options.
Chuck Sterling (00:58:33):
Zero, yes. So if you ever called Excel support during the Excel 3.0 days, you probably spoke with me or David Ferguson or Kat McFarland, almost positively.
Rob Collie (00:58:44):
Whoa, whoa, David Ferguson, who ended up writing setup scripts for the configuration management team in Office?
Chuck Sterling (00:58:50):
Yeah, absolutely. And he did a startup. Actually, it was called [inaudible 00:58:54] and actually did voice stuff. Yeah, those were my peeps. I hung out for two years there. And the whole time I was like, "Clearly, I'm not a Microsoft good fit. This is not a long term thing for me. So how do I actually find that Oracle DBA job?" So what I did was I actually started studying at night. I volunteered for the night job at Excel, and I started studying something called Lightning. You're going to laugh because he knows that that's Access, is what that lightning turned into. And I go in and apply for the job after studying this to actually leave, to go out and be an Oracle DBA and this Access team after eight grueling hours; you need to do a podcast on just the interview process at Microsoft, grueling hours, said, "You're not a good team fit. You don't have the intellectual horsepower. We're not even certain about your hygiene aspects, but"-
Rob Collie (00:59:46):
Well, that's saying a lot. I know what the access team looked like back in that day.
Chuck Sterling (00:59:50):
Yes, "But you passed the breath test and the stack is you. We're down to you. So how would you like to join the team?" I'm like, "Yes. Now, I can go out and get that Oracle job I've been dreaming about," after I learned Lightning, because I still didn't have a name. So I joined the support team and my manager, Connie Sullivan is actually who it was, she sits me down and says, "Hey Chuck, I know that we hired you into the lightning team, welcome to the team. It turns out, we actually just bought this other product nobody else wants to support it and since you are the low man in the totem pole, you get to figure out how to support this."
Chuck Sterling (01:00:26):
And they handed me a white box with a purple fox face on it, and it said Fox Base, I think, or FoxPro one." And they're like, you're the FoxPro guy. You're that person, nobody else wants to do it." So hired to the Access team supporting FoxPro? So I got to continue the story because it's actually fun is that I'm looking at the whole part, so I'm like, "Okay, it looks like the C++ developers, actually just seed developers are making more money than the Oracle developers. I got to get rid of this Microsoft thing. This isn't a good fit for me. They're going to figure me out."
Chuck Sterling (01:01:02):
It's not even an imposter syndrome, it's help wanted poster syndrome, "They're going to figure me out and I'm going to be on the street. So how do I go out and parlay this into a C developer job? "So what was my old play? I volunteered to work nights on the FoxPro and I started studying C and C++ and the Windows SDK. And I went out and interviewed a year later. So I did that for a year, and I interviewed for the Windows SDK, I don't know if you remember, you guys can't see my hands on the podcast, but the Windows SDK was a box about 50 pounds and it was big. It was like the size of your desk, and I applied for that team.
Chuck Sterling (01:01:42):
Once again, you really don't have the skillset, you can't type in algorithms, you don't know how to do bubble sorts and honoring and trance algorithms, your coding skills are shocking. Again, personal hygiene stuff aside, you're not a good team fit, but nobody else interviewed, welcome to the team. So I joined the team excited that I'm going to learn development to actually go out and get a development job in the real world where I'm going to pull down the big dollars. And [inaudible 01:02:12] sits me down, I think it was and says, "Hey Chuck, welcome to the team. I got some news is that the team actually just acquired another piece of technology, nobody else wants to do it, nobody else. We don't understand it, you're it."
Chuck Sterling (01:02:24):
And they had me this product called Visual Basic. I was the Visual Basic guy that. I did that, and once again, I'm like, "Ooh, this stuff's hard. It's not easy at all and I don't know if that I wanted hard. That was not what I signed up for. What was the path before? Oracle. Let's get back to that game." We had just licensed Sybase, it's like, "Oh my God, SQL Server is just like Oracle. Let's get back to that Oracle path, I'll make that money, I'll be out of here. I'll be done." Volunteered to support FoxPro at night and I started learning tuples and attributes and COD stuff and Sybase SQL Server and applied for the SQL Server team.
Chuck Sterling (01:03:05):
And couple things worked against me here. A, when I volunteered to work at nights, I didn't know that I was going to be supporting every development feature at Microsoft. So I wasn't just supporting Windows SDK, Visual Basic, and C++, everything that had in SDK is what I did. So that was a tough job technically and challenging and fun. And I went out and interviewed for the brand new SQL Server team. Sean Abby was running that, great guy, and he asked me probably one of the scariest questions I've ever been asked for in an interview at Microsoft.
Chuck Sterling (01:03:36):
And if you guys ever hear a question like this, my suggestion is actually go out and say you need to use a restroom, leave. Just don't come back to that table.
Rob Collie (01:03:46):
Like that scene in Fargo, where William H. Macy just excuse himself and he goes driving by and he's fleeing the interview.
Chuck Sterling (01:03:56):
Yes, do that. So the question was, "Hey Chuck, after you joined the team, did you want a mountain view or a lake view? And you can actually choose any computer you want and we give you your own pager." So the part after you join the team, if you hear those words as the first question out of your interviewer's mouth, that's not a team that you want to be on. It turns out that the SQL Server team at that point were getting more server downs and escalations in a week than the rest of all support was in a month. And again, we had just it in from Sybase, so I can probably get by a little bit.
Chuck Sterling (01:04:35):
We were learning, it was new and it was what it was. And so they desperately needed escalation engineers. And it got to the point, one of my greatest skill sets was figuring out a DBCC command that would run longer than my shift was. Did I say that out loud? I need you to figure out a DB SYS indexes, SYSCONSTRAINTS and... This 15 minutes short. Oh, and SYS calls. Go ahead and get those and do a validation check of your data. Give me a call back at this number when we validated the data that is actually back in good shape.
Rob Collie (01:05:12):
Man, there's so many people that I know where part of those stories as you told them. Like this tour, 11 times I wanted to jump in and say, "Oh, did you know this person? That person?" You probably did. It's a heck of a tour.
Chuck Sterling (01:05:29):
Yeah. We have such a French movie similar paths. I can can't believe that we haven't intersected, but then again, I was in Lincoln Plaza, you were on campus, so I rarely got up to campus and all of us were in Lincoln Plaza.
Rob Collie (01:05:41):
My similar stories I interviewed as an afterthought, I was so set on going to work for Andersen Consulting, now Accenture, and Microsoft had a bad reputation on campus back in the '90s. They were the evil empire.
Chuck Sterling (01:05:56):
Well deserved.
Rob Collie (01:06:00):
Microsoft really, really grew into that reputation with the antitrust trial the way that was conducted, we were just sitting around going, it's like that Key & Peele or whatever that skid is, like, "Are we the bad guys? We have skulls on our uniforms. Are we the bad guys?"
Chuck Sterling (01:06:16):
Did you have to do any Bill reviews?
Rob Collie (01:06:19):
No.
Chuck Sterling (01:06:19):
I was going to say, I don't think there was a lot of questions, are we the bad guys? Some of those were... There was no, how do you feed kittens and how's the homeless back then. It's different Microsoft now, it's much warmer and friendlier. And literally the conversations are, how do you make sure and service the customers first?
Rob Collie (01:06:34):
I am very deeply suspicious of this smiling Bill Gates that we see in public these days. I'm like, "What are you really up to Bill?"
Chuck Sterling (01:06:50):
And what Rob's talking about for you guys on the podcast is Bill has a very different vernacular of words he uses enclosed doors. Let's leave it at that. Great guys, still smart, wicked smart, different set of words with different number of silvers.
Rob Collie (01:07:05):
I'm going to go as far to say that it goes beyond that as well and it's like what I see in public, I wonder like, "This is a cloaking device, right?
Chuck Sterling (01:07:20):
It's been great changes though for everybody. The fact that we actually start thinking about all those things, so chops to build.
Rob Collie (01:07:26):
Yeah. I think everything finds its way. Like so many people that have been on this show, this is still a pretty young show, we haven't had 30 episodes yet. So many people, I'm not picking people, we're not picking people to come on the show because we're like, "Oh, this person's got a really random ass background." We're not looking for the eclectic back stories, we're looking for people that are interesting to talk to in the data space. And it turns out so many of you, of us, have these crazy random paths that you never would've planned it. And so there's a lesson in this, which is, it's like that whole thing, oh, it's the Mike Tyson quote or everyone's got a plan so they get punched in the mouth.
Rob Collie (01:08:07):
You can plan your career, and some people can pull that off. Props to those people. I'm not trying to take anything away from them because they've got a capability that I don't. So if you're not that person though, being the flexible one, the dynamic one that can surf those waves and can seize those opportunities as they come along, and can follow that random chain, I think that's the rest of us. Some people are pedigree and can call their shot, we're the other people.
Chuck Sterling (01:08:37):
I have them here, my history at Microsoft, I count myself very lucky, has been a series of buying lottery tickets and winning iterably. Again, I really do feel that every step was this crazy pseudo exit strategy that actually really did set me up to succeed the next step. I had amazing interactions with the people like you and all the teams I worked on were great, and it actually set me up to go to the next level of the thing. And right now, we're talking about, I get to play the absolute latest in cutting technology.
Chuck Sterling (01:09:08):
I don't know how I got here, but I'm certainly not going to look at the gift horse in the mouth. I think I find myself very fortunate, very lucky here.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:16):
But that's who you've always been. You just described yourself, something new came along and it got handed to you. I think it just gravitates to you.
Chuck Sterling (01:09:24):
Yeah. Again, I want to count myself lucky, I was actually able to be in those positions at that time. I don't know how or why, but yeah, it's been cool, been a fun ride.
Rob Collie (01:09:33):
It's a myth to suggest that, this isn't a myth for them, but for most people, it's a myth to suggest that you're going to be in control of your own life. Things that happen external to you are going to have tremendous impact, but it's also a myth that you're helpless. You have this middle degree of control. I'm not sure if I've told this on this show before, but I learned this really powerfully from being on a white water trip with someone who really knew what they were doing. It's true that this guy in this raft, because we're on the river and we're in a raft, it's not like we're going to be able to go overland, we're not able to paddle overland.
Rob Collie (01:10:08):
So we're confined to the river, and there's that external constraint that the river's going to take you sooner or later where it wants to take you. But within that river, this guy could call his shot, "We're going to just go over there and hang out in that little pool and we're going to go over there in that little rapid, and we're going to deliberately get stuck. We're just going to sit it there." He could take us anywhere while directing a team of novices, and it was pure excellence. It was unbelievable. And there's a very close parallel to career. You were in that river, but within that river, holy hell, were you maneuverable?
Chuck Sterling (01:10:44):
And to bring that back to technology, by setting yourself, by knowing how to take advantage of each situation, being able to, I may have actually had three other different skill sets I was able to do when I went from FoxPro to SQL, but the fact that I actually knew that SQL one, let me actually take advantage of that one. So the river guide one that you're talking about, the fact that he knew how to actually read a riffle, enabled him. The fact that somebody on the Excel team knew Power Query was able to read that story as far as what's the next thing and actually make it an industry. So it's enabling yourself to take advantage of a situation, I guess, is what you're saying.
Rob Collie (01:11:21):
And there was something else about your story even though it was like the funniest refrain in the story. It was like, "This is going to be the way I'm getting out, I'm going to go make the big bucks," over and over again, that's like a standup routine man. There's also at the same time, there's something I think real about it. Even at our company, I'm always telling people, at least on my team, I'm telling people that they should always be thinking about their resume and what it looks like for the next job, whether that job is here or not, that is a good mindset, I want you to have that mindset.
Rob Collie (01:11:52):
And so you were inadvertently always thinking about your resume for the next job. Actually deliberately not inadvertently. It was just like, this wasn't your strategy, but you could look back at it and say, "You were following that strategy for a long time and it's taken you places."
Chuck Sterling (01:12:08):
And for your listeners, if they haven't read, Who Moved My Cheese? it's a requirement. You guys can't see Rob's facial expression, but he lit up, obviously he knows the book as well. I've been on teams where managers would give that to employees. And not as a signal that you need to go out and figure out the next thing, but you always need to make sure that your knife is sharp for whatever you want to do next. You need to actually create your own future. Who Moved My Cheese? is what, 70 pages, Rob? And it costs like five bucks on Amazon.
Rob Collie (01:12:32):
That's smart. It's one of the only nonfiction books that's worth its length.
Chuck Sterling (01:12:37):
Yeah. That whole enabling makers, I guess, having people outside of Microsoft and this podcast, thinking about how they can take advantage of it is actually fun. And I don't know what that means in some cases, and that's the fun part of this business is, what is it that... I recently saw that there are going to be more applications in the next 15 years that have ever been traded, ever. So in the history of mankind, if you take all of that code and everything that's ever been done, in the next 15 years, we're actually going to maybe even double it. I know it's a monumental shift in velocity, and 70% is going to be written by non-traditional, non-developer sort of things.
Chuck Sterling (01:13:21):
And what does that look like? And I think that's the next cool thing is that it's going to be our kids on phones that are going to figure out how to solve problems that we don't know. And I see them playing with Minecraft and I see them playing with these games, and I think those are the building blocks that tomorrow that I don't understand yet.
Rob Collie (01:13:39):
And when you say things like, and you hear things like 70% of them are going to be built by citizen developers, just the way the sentence is constructed, it has you thinking about just the shift in the labor. It focuses on as if the apps are going to be the same, which they're not. And that's the other half of it that I think is like the possibility is here, what we're going to see in terms of value creation and efficiency gains and things like that. It's not just that the audience is going to change, we don't know what's going to happen, we don't know what we're going to get out of it, and there's some really exciting things that are going to come from that.
Chuck Sterling (01:14:16):
And that was the point I was trying to make is that we are literally in the precipice of a break new world and I'm excited to see, is it chat box? Is it smart services? I love my new Roku TV and I keep thinking, "There's got to be something here and I don't know what it is." I'm looking forward to that next thing and I'm always looking around. That's why I'm always asking kids what they're going to be when they grow up because I'm still looking for pointers.
Rob Collie (01:14:38):
Well, let's circle back. Let's do this again in 18 months. A lot's going to change between now and then and you're right in the middle of that milestone.
Chuck Sterling (01:14:46):
I'm looking forward to it, Rob, I'd love to. I'm honored that you'd even consider it.
Rob Collie (01:14:49):
And I think this would be a really valuable one for the audience to tune into, so much appreciated, sir.
Chuck Sterling (01:14:54):
Not a problem. Tom, it was a pleasure again. For some reason, I thought you came up with Rob to one of his data clinics that he did on campus, but I'm glad we figured out that it was actually in Orlando.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:05):
It was in Orlando that we physically met. And of course, I see your name come through the MVP distribution list every now and then when you have to herd those cats for whatever reason.
Chuck Sterling (01:15:15):
One of my truest joys in the job actually is getting to play with you cats.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:19):
It's just every now and then something and goes off the rails and you get this email from Chuck. He's just like, "No, this." And it's like, "Oh, okay."
Chuck Sterling (01:15:26):
One of the things that I actually plan on doing for the MVPs and you guys might think it's interesting to listen to, is so far when we actually measure KPIs, we often measure how many MVPs do I have? And the group just started measuring, it's actually CSAT, so we can figure out how happy you are. And I'm so thankful for Lana Montgomery for adding that. I have that in my review. So when you look at my review, I actually have those two numbers, but they're table stakes. You don't want unhappy MVPs and you want to have MVPs, so there's a number.
Chuck Sterling (01:15:59):
What actually I'm proposing is that we start carrying numbers around how much that we can actually go out and grow your membership. So instead of actually looking at it is, "Hey Tom, what are you doing for us? How many views did you actually drive in the end of this URL? How many times did you come in and do something for us?" I'm saying, "Why don't we go out and get reports of your YouTube and your Twitter channels or whatever voice say you've got and say, 'As a result of you being my MVP, I want to see me do things that cause it to grow.'" Because of Chuck, Tom grew 20% last quarter. And that's actually literally the number that I've got in my goals.
Chuck Sterling (01:16:38):
We're actually trading those reports right now, I'm going to start with Twitter and YouTube. There's this thing called LinkedIn, but whoever owns that product, Rob, I don't know who owns that, their API is really hard to use. Luke, you can cut that part out.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:54):
Do not cut that out, Luke.
Chuck Sterling (01:16:57):
Okay. And I'm sure the team's working on it with the due diligences that it deserves. There you go. But anyways, I thought you'd be interested that I'm actually having those conversations with Lana Montgomery and the team right now, and it actually seems to be going well. The hard part of course is the reports.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:13):
Yes. As somebody who works in marketing, I understand that these are metrics that can be hard to quantify. I know one of the things for MVP that it's been hinted at, but basically, it's about who makes the cut. And sometimes the word that gets thrown around is influence, is that somebody who's seen as influential? And it's like, how do you measure that? But I like the idea of you saying, "Hey, Tom's got this many Twitter followers, can I help grow that for him in some way?"
Chuck Sterling (01:17:42):
I want to unwind the last one. Yeah, they do throw around impact and influence a lot. And I keep going out and saying, "That's an our problem, that's Chuck's problem, that is not a Tom's problem." And let me explain in that if Tom were based in Indonesian and he spoke, God, I don't know what they speak in Indonesia.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:02):
They speak Java, I think.
Rob Collie (01:18:03):
Oh really? Object oriented or JavaScript?
Chuck Sterling (01:18:07):
Anyways, if you were in a small demographic in a fringe language, your impact and your influence is actually going to be marginalized as a result of that, but your contributions and the effort that you put into actually going out and supporting us and the community could be every bit as much. And I keep actually asking my peers to think about us focusing on increasing your impact and your influence and having them awarded based on contribution effort. So if you guys are putting in 30 hours in Indonesia speaking Java or Indonesian or whatever the case is, and I get somebody that is actually in Massachusetts with a big pipe and he's able to actually work a quarter of the time and get twice as much impact and influence, is he twice as important?
Chuck Sterling (01:18:53):
And in Chuck's eyes, I usually know, I would say that one's working much harder and I should probably go out and recognize the efforts of the person putting into it, not the fact that they actually have bigger lovers, because I want to go out then say, "How can I help that person with their lovers?" And it changes the dynamic quite a bit. So anyways, if you saw me go out and grab my head and sigh, it's because the impact and influence conversation is something I have all the time and it's near and dear to my heart. And you guys are so important, I want us to actually look at you the right way and making sure we focus on the right things.
Thomas LaRock (01:19:26):
I appreciate that. Thank you. It's amazing to hear.
Rob Collie (01:19:29):
I'm honored that you came on the show. We've really enjoyed it.
Chuck Sterling (01:19:31):
Thank you very, very much. I really appreciate it.
Announcer (01:19:33):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show, email lukep, L-U-K-E-P@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Data guy by day, crimefighter also by day! John Hancock has revolutionized the Law Enforcement space with his company Hubstream. His team uses advanced data techniques and tools to assist investigators to battle all manner of illegal activity. His story, his data journey, and even his accent are fascinating!
Episode Timeline:
- 1:35 - Project Gemini is how Rob and John met, the evolution of BI tools, and that pesky status quo
- 13:50 - The story of John Hancock the crimefighter AKA Captain Correlate...and how Hubstream was born
- 31:25 - How do you build a data warehouse that doesn't fail? In part, it's understanding Humans. And an explanation on the marvel that is Hubstream
- 1:30:45 - The team is...everything!
- 1:40:10 - How are Power BI and the Power Platform involved in Hubstream
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Today's guest is John Hancock. And as he told me, when we very first met back at Microsoft, like in 2007, no, he did not sign the declaration of independence. John and I worked together for several years, working on power pivot, the forerunner of Power BI. And I had just enormous respect for this guy, but I had no idea the double life that he was actually leading. John didn't choose to fight crime with data. It chose him. Left Microsoft, started a company, inspired others to join him, built it the hard way, and it's paid off.
Rob Collie (00:00:35):
It's really blossoming both for them and for law enforcement. Oh, and did I mention that it's built a hundred percent on the Microsoft platform, including things like Power BI. That's what we call badass. He even rocks a little bit of a superhero accent. As usual, we talk about a lot of things. Talk about data. We talk about building startups. We talk about people, the value of teamwork. And at one point he even uses the words, " the human element" completely unprompted. Such a good time, we're definitely going to have to have him on again at some point in the future. Don't take my word for it though. Let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:10):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:15):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to power pivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:33):
Welcome to the show, John Hancock. How you doing, man?
John Hancock (00:01:37):
Good thanks. How about you?
Rob Collie (00:01:38):
Doing all right. You and I, our way of getting to know each other was we intersected so briefly in the grand scheme of things back on project Gemini Power Pivot at Microsoft.
John Hancock (00:01:50):
Who would've thought that would take us all this distance, right?
Rob Collie (00:01:53):
Yeah.
John Hancock (00:01:54):
It seemed like a pretty revolutionary thing at the time, but it's super cool to see how it's all unfolded over these many years now.
Rob Collie (00:02:00):
It felt special when we were working on it. I don't think any of us really imagined deep down that it was going to be anything as special as it actually turned out to be. I had to leave Microsoft to discover how amazing it was. Just such a revelation to me that like, wow, this thing we were working on actually is good. In fact, it's better than we hoped.
John Hancock (00:02:22):
It turned out way better than and I think any has had any right to hope. It seemed like so controversial and weird at the time, this basic idea. Hey, you don't have to have these super high paid BI consultants of which I was one to actually get any value out of your data. Like actual normal humans. One day in this far off future land we'll be able to connect to information and build things themselves. And we go around and tell people that, and it'd be like, "No, that's never going to work, no chance."
Rob Collie (00:02:47):
And of course, people telling us that didn't have any vested interest, and us being wrong, cause who are you going to talk to at those times, you're going to talk to BI consultants, right?
John Hancock (00:02:57):
Yeah, exactly.
Rob Collie (00:02:59):
That's the only people you're going to ask. It even turned out to be this radical way of doing things that was so controversial back then. Turned out to be... That's actually a better tool set. Even for those existing high priced BI consultants. A lot of them have really, really embraced this tool set. It just turned out that it was just better for humans.
John Hancock (00:03:20):
Yeah definitely. It's sort of sure. I used to do these huge projects. It would take forever. They'd wheel me in there as this SQL server analysis consultant and I'd be part of a team of six and we'd go build these ETL pipelines and all this stuff, all the while having somebody translating the business. It'd be out there as talking to the business and come back to us and they'd tell us things and we'd build this whole big thing, get it out there in the world. And of course, no one would use it, because by then the business had kind of cruised along. And so, all the rigor that we had, all the data integrity rules and all the stuff like, we're so much better than you with your crazy spreadsheets and your formulas, which are bound to be wrong.
John Hancock (00:03:58):
Well, actually the Excel sheets and that iterative process was just so valuable that real world businesses, they need that. They just needed that to be better. So, it's interesting when I've had quite an evolution over the years, in terms of thinking about that from somebody who, as you say had that vested interest. I was the number two data guy at Microsoft, Canada, heart, helping customers with that technology set. And you go out, you do enough of those engagements. You realize, holy crap, this isn't working. The projects we did were successful on their face, but every time you went back a year or two later, it was like, no, there's these dashboards that sit there and everybody else in the meantime, that's reverted back because there's now a new business unit and new business prices, all these things just keep on going at the scale or speed of the business.
John Hancock (00:04:41):
It's super cool to see now, people just take this for granted. The terminology's even changed and people just think of this as BI now, this is how it works. It's not these big projects anymore where it's actually more agile. And of course there are all kinds of problems as a result of that. But those problems pre-existed on any of this technology and they'll live with us for a long time. How do you know this is right? Where's your data coming from? Those sorts of questions.
Rob Collie (00:05:04):
We've always had those. I've got all these potential fight starters, that I'll say at conferences or whatever, for example, there has never been a traditional BI project that was a success.
John Hancock (00:05:18):
That's a good one.
Rob Collie (00:05:19):
And what you're describing, your previous experience is exactly what I mean by the traditional... It's a team of six and you're translating the business and it grinds forever with tons and tons of infrastructure and plumbing. And then by the time you're done, it probably doesn't even actually deliver on the original requirements, be perfectly honest because you need that iteration to deliver. But even if you did hit that initial target, that target has moved in the two years that it took to execute. I think you're right that the new way of doing things is now considered to be like the right thing. It's sort of like intellectually, however, the real world hasn't caught up to that reality at all yet. It's like the intelligency have decided, "Okay, this is the new way," But you go out and you witness the reality and reality is very stubborn. It's got a lot of inertia. We still probably got a decade maybe even, I don't even know of catching up. The real world has to actually adopt and change to meet this new agreed upon best way.
John Hancock (00:06:26):
I agree. I also see a lot of people out there where you feel like they have to age out of the system for change to happen. Anyone who comes from that world, who hasn't made the leap by now into look, your job is to actually service the business. They're moving faster than you can. Anyone who uses the word ontology, if you hear that word or something like it, variations on that thing, that's it. You are the anchor. You are not the person who's facilitating what needs facilitating here right.
Rob Collie (00:06:52):
Yes. On our previous podcast, we actually talked about the Max Planck Theory of scientific revolution, which is, that it's not this meritocracy of ideas that everyone wants it to believe. The old guard has to leave.
John Hancock (00:07:05):
Yeah, definitely. And I think that the other interesting part of this, from my sort of part of the world, which is really about helping people to investigate crime, what I see as well, is this big revolution going on where the sort of analytics used to be something that you bolted on and it was something you did in the rear view mirror. And even in the new agile thing is still, most of the stuff I see is rear view mirror stuff, right. We are doing this new thing and we need to be able to count the metrics or do the KPIs of this new project, which is great. But you're always looking in the rear view mirror. You figure out what data you're collecting, you clean it up, you build analysis around it. And there you go, look, now you can see behind you.
John Hancock (00:07:45):
So what we are finding interesting in our space, is trying to figure out how you sort of marsh that data analysis in a forward direction, because for investigating crimes, the value isn't in the rearview mirror, it's going into the process that they're doing on a day to day basis and saying, "okay, every single step you take along your journey to do these investigations, how can we marsh all this information of which there's tons, it's messy, it's large. How can we bring that into your day to day work and help you see forwards?" Because what we're trying to do with crime is you're trying to bring all that together and say this is where you should focus your attention, all the sea of noise, here's where you're headed.
John Hancock (00:08:24):
So it's kind of like for us, we want to be more sort of like ways, where you're driving along and it's not looking in the rear view mirror. You get these little popups along your day today, which is, "Hey dude, there's a big traffic jam ahead. You want to go to the left" or "There's this good opportunity over here" And so trying to martial all of that into their day to day is what I think is interesting. Especially since with SAS, I think the next 10 years as it evolves is going to be more and more about that forward looking approach to data analysis. How do you like start altering people's behavior on their day to day as they're executing, whatever it is you're trying to do, rather than just having these projects where you can measure the thing that you're doing anyway?
Rob Collie (00:09:06):
So I want to make the transition into your alter ego crime fighting, doctor data. We're going to come up with some sort of superhero, Marvel-ish name for you, but...
John Hancock (00:09:18):
That's fantastic. You guys should totally do that. I suck at marketing personally.
Rob Collie (00:09:21):
[inaudible 00:09:21]
John Hancock (00:09:21):
My name is John Hancock. That's not weird enough. I mean it's...
Rob Collie (00:09:26):
Yeah. I remember. And when you introduced yourself the first time I met you, you introduced yourself to this whole room and you said, "Okay, and first of all, Americans, yes, my name was John Hancock." And that's my first memory of you. It is literally that.
John Hancock (00:09:41):
It's pretty memorable. That's right. I still, when I was out in the world, I used to get one to two jokes a day on average about that one. And so, you kind of get a little bit bored of it, but whenever it was somebody at US Customs making that joke, I would laugh like it was the first time I heard it. They look at your passport. They make the John Hancock joke. You're like, 'Oh, you're so funny, Mr. Customs guy. Yes. Please let me in."
Rob Collie (00:10:04):
Don't don't send me back. But before we go there, I want to almost pick a fight, but I actually think in the end we really agree. So I hear this a lot about BI, the rear view mirror thing. I want to seize this apart a little bit for our dear listeners. So first of all, I think one of the reasons why BI has had, or has this reputation as a rear view mirror is first of all, it was so damn slow, right? And even when you had reports that you liked, which of course we've already agreed, never happened. They would be run like monthly and it would be too late to make any difference whatsoever. And as you increase the frequency, as you increase the velocity and the speed at which you're able to see, I start to think of it as no longer the rear view mirror.
Rob Collie (00:10:51):
I start to think of this as the windshield, because you know, like truly seeing the future, that's predictive analysis, right? And so we want to make a distinction there, but I think the point is, is that if you're using data to look backward, this is a subtle philosophical shift. If you're using data to look backward, versus you're using data to try to decide what to do today factually mathematically, it might be in some sense, you could argue it's the same thing, because you're using things that have happened.
John Hancock (00:11:25):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:11:25):
The other way to describe things that are happening in the rear of your mirror is facts.
John Hancock (00:11:31):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:11:31):
They're the only things that have happened, everything else is a guess, right? But you're using it to synthesize your move. I agree, that's one of the things we've been talking about a lot is that it's all about the action that you take. Being informed is worth nothing on its own.
John Hancock (00:11:45):
Right. It's about the behavior that results from that. So I think that is kind of maybe a way to slice this problem a little differently, which is that data analysis or data that's changing, where you take the car, changing the direction you would've steer. And if you didn't have that thing available to you, you would take different actions as a result. So that's, I think the next sort of 10 years of how to measure the value on this. It's really about what did you do differently that you wouldn't have done. And then you go back and you say, well, because of course, as I was doing the thing, the system around me was aware of all the information and was telling me all the good things we should go do. And so we did it, and that just becomes a normal way of doing it.
John Hancock (00:12:24):
And you see this showing up, I think in micro areas where you already had people doing their work on a day to day basis, that needed guide like CRM, where like here, or call center's a classic one, "Hey, I'm in a call center." And the system's telling you stuff like, "Hey, ask them about this and tell them to add, telephone service, because it'll save them, and we'll make more money." So what are these systems like that? But they've kind of pointed at the kinds of areas of the world that are very easy to, relatively speaking, to guide people. There's a finite set of actions. They bring them in. When you start getting into the more complex areas, which I think fit the bill for most of what the value is that's being created in the world, then it gets much more complicated.
John Hancock (00:13:07):
And I think we're starting to enter into a new era where giving you useful guidance as you go, it's becoming more and more a possibility out of the sea of noise, the unstructured and the structured and all the things that are happening to start to be able to learn from that and go look, you are sitting here as an expert in your domain and the value I'm giving you is things that you couldn't possibly have gone out and found yourself. And that thing is actually helping you to change the direction. You're going to do a different thing now, because I've told you out of all the thousands of things, here's the most relevant thing you need to know. And the most actionable thing you need to know.
Rob Collie (00:13:41):
It's almost like to continue the metaphor. It's like, we've finally, as an industry developed the art of windshield and window glass. Right. And so now we can talk about steering. John, you and I overlap for probably two years.
John Hancock (00:13:55):
Something like that, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:55):
Too good, well, they were tumultuous years for me. But two years back in the formation of essentially what became Daks and the tabular model and the beating heart of Power BI, but all this time, our friend John was leading this double life. I don't remember you ever once talking about it. I'm the kind of guy, if I'm living a double life, all you're going to hear about is my other life. Like that's all I'm going to be... You're going to be inundated with it. Like, "Okay, come on now, Rob stop." But you, I don't think you were keeping it a secret. It's just wasn't the thing... It just wasn't that important to the work at hand that we were doing every day. And so it just never came up. But can you tell us about this double life as a crime fighter?
John Hancock (00:14:39):
Sure, absolutely. It has been an interesting journey. So back at the beginning of all this, I was working, as I said, as a business intelligence consultant. I ended up working at Microsoft consulting services in Canada. And so I would go out there and help people do those projects I talked about, right. I'd be the Microsoft guy on that six person project team. And we'd go and help banks make more money. In that whole process, one of the days I went back to the office and walk in the hallways and one of the engagement managers comes out to me and he says, "John, I'm so glad to see you. You're one of our top data people. I have this great opportunity for you to volunteer to go do something." I thought, wow, that's a pretty weird thing for one of these guys.
John Hancock (00:15:15):
I bail out at X amount of dollars per hour for Microsoft. You're asking me to volunteer. This is weird. She says, "Yeah, yeah. We got this opportunity for you. You can go in and help Toronto police investigate crimes against children, like child pornography offenses." And I was like, oh, no way am I doing that. No chance. Thanks dude, but no, I'm out. So I went home and thought about it and talked to my wife. And I was like, "Can you believe this guy wants me to go help Toronto police for this?' He was like, "Oh, so you're going to... You're just going to carry on helping those banks make more money then so, okay." So kind of molded over and went back in. I said, "Look, idea of like helping investigate crimes against kids is horrifying to me. I don't know what value I could add. And I probably can't take it." Many people in the world, if you say those words to them will be like, "Hey, I can't handle that." And some brave individuals were out there dealing with this, not me.
John Hancock (00:16:07):
Long story short, I ended up getting pulled into this project, had Toronto Police and it turned out that back then sort of 2003, they really just started realizing that the technology revolution had carried on and kids were chatting on MSN Messenger and all these other products. And they were out there in the world. And there were all these predators who were starting to reach kids in domains over the internet, as opposed to just the real world, which is terrifying enough. And so I ended up going in and trying to help Toronto police who had just formed a unit to go after a crime type, which they're called child exploitation, which covered a vast array of bad things that happened to kids online and in the real world, and then published online.
John Hancock (00:16:51):
And so I spent about three months embedded with Toronto police and trying to figure out what to do. And it's big challenge. As a data guy, I showed up there and expecting that there would be drowning in data, just like the banks and all the rest, which is why I got sent in. And I showed up and biggest source of data they had was an Excel spreadsheet, they're managing. Now they would go out and then make a risk and they'd come back with machines and they have vast troves of information. But the day to day things they were using, they didn't have a data problem to solve. So as a BI guy, you kind of taken away my typical act. There was no way I could go in and go, 'Well, you need to assemble your data and build an ETL pipeline and blah, blah, blah." So I ended up having to actually listen to them and spend time figuring out what they needed to do. And it was a pretty low point actually. I was over there in the summer and I was like, "Oh my God, I've really got myself into something here. People are expecting me to use information, to help these guys, and I really don't know what to do." So two months into it, I thought to myself, "Well, this is going nowhere." I'm not coming up with things. They're not coming up with things. So I started to just take people out individually for coffees, right. So I went for one of the senior people in the team, took him out for a coffee. It'd be in Canada. It was Tim Hortons. I have to do a Tim Horton shoutout. Maybe he can get a sponsorship for your podcast.
John Hancock (00:18:06):
And so we sat there and I said to her, "Okay, look, just tell me about any success you've had. Let's see... Can we talk about your successes you've had so far?" She said, "Yeah, funny you should mention that. It was a really great case we finally did last week." And so what happened was as Toronto police, we got a report from a parent in Toronto saying that their kid was on MSN Messenger and they're chatting to a friend on MSN Messenger who they thought was an 11 year old boy. And the parent had found these messages that included pictures and all kinds of stuff. And so the parent was super worried. So they reported her to Toronto police. So they get the report. The only information in there is, this is a made up email address just for everybody, but they get an email address like Bob54@hotmail.com, that's it. All they have to go on.
John Hancock (00:18:51):
So the cops said, "I spent the day trying to find information online, found nothing. We've read nothing, ready to go on." So it's not actually illegal behavior. It's just shady. So there was nothing I could do. So he said, "I went out for drinks that night with my buddy from Vancouver police. And we were sitting there having a few beers and talking about our days, and he's also in this new child exploitation domain. So I was bitching about how I've just had this really bad day. I've got this parent, I've got this kid out there. I've no idea who this Bob54@hotmail.com is." She's just complaining about how much this day sucked. And the Vancouver cop goes, "Wait, did you say Bob54@hotmail.com?" And it turned out that they'd had this huge, big, undercover operation for months in Vancouver.
John Hancock (00:19:35):
And those Bob54 alias had kept coming up, but they didn't have enough information on that side either to do anything about it. So the two cops then put their information together. Now they've got enough to actually go and get the information. They put in a request to Microsoft with all the legal backing to get the guy, so result. So at that point, my brain just completely exploded because I finally got it. This is the actual problem. Finally, I found the real issue here. And the issue is, while the criminals are starting to adopt all these new technologies and they're out there completely unbound and completely borderless, the way we've organized law enforcement response is completely geography based. It's been like that since forever. And that's how we've organized all of our criminal investigations, which is Toronto police is reporting to the Toronto mayor. They're paid by Toronto taxpayers. And if you drive down a particular street, you cross over a magical geographical boundary. You're now in the territory of a different police service. Those two different agencies are not connected. They're not sharing information. They are completely siloed.
John Hancock (00:20:42):
And so right there in 2003, I just had this huge revelation of the fact that all the crime that starts to get to be mediated on the internet or anything that revolves around the internet, all of a sudden is this totally borderless space. But all of our response as a society is organized around geography. So I'm like, got it. Finally, I'm not going to sit here being a useless data person with no data anymore. I'm going back to the office and I'm going to tell him the news, right. So I go in there and go talking to the president of Microsoft Canada at the time who was awesome guy, who also had two young kids.
John Hancock (00:21:14):
And I said to him, "Look, I get that you probably sent me in there hoping we donate a few copies of office, but I've got some great news. Instead of doing that, we're going to build a giant system to unite the whole of Canada. We're going to build this massive project to integrate all the people who are doing this kinds of investigations together. So that every piece of information that comes in can be correlated and matched against all the other stuff." And so we basically pitched that to Microsoft corporate and we ended up building this huge system for Canada as a totally pro bono effort out of Microsoft citizenship project. We basically over a year and a half built a system that is still being used to really manage the flow of information in, into Canada and help them to figure out that there are these different connections. And so that was really the start of my double life, right. Because I switched from doing just BI consulting for banks into running this project as the solution architect for a number of years. And even when I ended up leaving that project and moving to Redmond to start work on Project Gemini and all the other BI technologies, I was still kind of acting as an informal advisor to that project, which ended up at Microsoft's digital crimes unit for many years. So I always had this double life, as you said, where I would do my day job of PM on the Project Gemini team and in lead and eventually GPM. But all the time, I was also like driving over every now and then into digital crimes units and talking to the people and still staying in touch with the law enforcement, who, as you can imagine, 2003 was actually pre-Facebook.
John Hancock (00:22:46):
And so the world had continued to evolve at an incredibly rapid rate. And so the things that we thought were going to be tough right at the beginning, just got tougher and tougher every single year, the amount of information coming in doubled, so this is something that we've seen over and over in all types of investigations, which is just as the whole of society moves online. Everybody around you is using technology. You're Skyping your mom in a foreign country. Everybody is just technology based. Well, of course, crime moved with it. So there's no such thing as offline crime anymore, right? Everything that is crime in the world has some online footprint. And because of that, the information that you have available as investigators is huge, right, because there's all these different things that are collected, but the problem switches over to how do you actually figure out what's important?
John Hancock (00:23:36):
How do you actually, as you said before, how do you steer in the direction of the worst harm? So that as an investigator, you can do something about it. You've got a finite amount of time, finite amount of resources. You have to be able to synthesize all that information together. And then on a day to day basis, be focusing on the things where you can make the most difference. And that's really where the company that I found at Hub Stream with some great people out of Microsoft, we've put together a company that really builds the software that takes that project we originally did at digital crimes unit and has kept on making it available for that crime type, but also many others.
Rob Collie (00:24:12):
At least one of the people that went with you to Hub Stream was one of our absolute ACEs in the hole on Project Gemini. Let's come back to him in just a second.
John Hancock (00:24:22):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:24:23):
I want to appreciate that guy. Yeah. I really do. So a lot of things about this problem space that are unique and sort of domain specific, I'm not going to try to pigeonhole it into saying it's the same as everything else, because it isn't. At the same time there's still some themes here that are familiar. It's this siloization is a huge problem in the business world. And some of times it does sort of take a geographic silo, right? Like if you were a company that has grown through mergers and acquisitions.
John Hancock (00:24:52):
You have all these subsidiaries and... Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:24:56):
You got the operations in different countries and everything. So you have that silo problem, but you also even have a silo problem across line of business systems. That's been one of the big, big, big themes, really that Power BI is amazing at. See the silo problem and you recognizing that it was a silo problem, right? It was kind of the moment where the light bulb went on and your life basically changed forever. It's a dramatic way to say it, but it's true.
John Hancock (00:25:19):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:25:20):
This is the sort of problem that once you get a hold of it or once it gets a hold of you, it's never letting go. It's easy to see and understand how it maintained a place in your life. You were still going back over to the digital crimes unit.
John Hancock (00:25:35):
It's a combination like a really challenging problem in data generally, but just a generally challenging problem, but also the opportunity to make a big impact, which was really just so driving me. And that's how I managed to persuade people to quit their great jobs on Microsoft and come over to this crazy adventure. It's that combination, right? It's a super hard problem that's going to keep growing every day we show up it gets more complicated and we're constantly having to innovate and come up with new things. And at the same time, the impact that you can make in the space, particularly crimes that are so obviously horrific and that where everybody watches TV and movies and they see these like fancy CSI type systems. But you actually walk the hallways of any police department or service or agency that's responsible for investigating crimes.
John Hancock (00:26:23):
And what you see is ancient technologies completely out of date, three or four different things, many national federal agencies. If you go there, they have three terminals on their desks. There's these three systems that don't interconnect and they swivel their chair in order to integrate. And so it's just such a huge opportunity as those law enforcement agencies have started to modernize. And particularly now that they've started finally to move towards the cloud, there's these massive opportunities to make a difference in their lives and in the effectiveness of their day to day investigative activities, as a result of that. Even large corporations, which increasingly are customers of ours in areas like pharmaceutical companies, that sort of thing. They do vast scale investigations where they're getting so much information in, product counterfeiting is another great one. You know, if you've got a big brand and you start to dip your toe into, "Hey, there are people selling my brand on the internet.
John Hancock (00:27:21):
And it turns out to be totally fake or it's been diverted," It's actually gray market or whatever. The, the volume you need to actually to assemble and put together and actually have a reasonable understanding of is just growing and growing and growing. So that's how come we've ended up starting this hub stream adventure, which was, I saw back then what was going to start happening, and we've really spent the last several years at Hub Stream building that technology platform. And we just wake up every day with that problem space. We go back to it and we keep pushing forward and some days we make progress and we're ahead and it's an arms race, right. As soon as you make something better, the criminals adapt and then we have something else to go solve. So it's this never ending journey, I think, which has been a really exciting thing.
Rob Collie (00:28:05):
It sounds to me like you helped Canada build a watch list.
John Hancock (00:28:10):
Yes, kind of. What we really did was we re-engineered how they think about investigations.
Rob Collie (00:28:16):
Okay, but you essentially built them a data warehouse.
John Hancock (00:28:21):
Yeah. We started out doing this simple thing, right. Which was, he said, "Look, if you're in this place and you're in this place and you both touch upon the same entity, we should let you know." And so that's a great start, but then you scale it up. And so where that goes after that it's complicated, right? Because now, well, where's that information coming from? Well, you start out with humans typing. And that was where we started. 2003, I was a human typing that stuff in there, Rob54@hotmail, so great. Then fast forward a few more years and you start to get feeds of information in, and this is the same thing you see happening in companies as well right? They start with a sales team of one, they're out there prospecting, they're finding stuff. Then they hire two people. Then they start bringing in data feeds, same thing with investigations. And so the problem starts to show.
John Hancock (00:29:03):
Bringing in data feeds, same thing with investigations. And so the problem starts to shift from connect the dots of what humans are doing in any given day over to, okay, I'm signing on as an investigator this morning, I have a hundred things that got reported to me. Okay. I'm now going to have to take action on one of them and I might get to three. By the end of the day, I'll have figured out three of them to go do. So which three? That's the challenge that comes in. How do you start to alter the day to day flow? And then when they start to get those data volumes, the other big challenges that start coming in are how do you help people understand that much information? We hit this tipping point I would think about five years ago now, where issue used to be how do I acquire the information that I need in order to do these investigations?
John Hancock (00:29:46):
And today the problem is I've got so much damn information, whether it's law enforcement or corporate investigation, whatever it is, you can get feeds, there's crawlers, there's all sorts of sources of information. Now, the problem that people are dealing with is in a world where you've got so much information, you've got so many opportunities to go do things, how do you put that in front of somebody in a way that they can understand quickly, make sense of it and also have some ideas about what the options are and do that in a scalable way. And so that's why, like I say, every day we come in with different challenges and it's really about how do you start taking those emerging things. Like Bitcoin comes up. Well, now Bitcoin has a whole thing about it, it's a whole different element.
John Hancock (00:30:32):
That's starting to play into your investigations. Six months ago that was a completely irrelevant side show. And today 30% of your investigations are featuring Bitcoin, because it's a nice easy way to move money around. So, okay. How do you take an agency that has probably persisted for a hundred years in the case of these large national law enforcement investigations and help them change that quickly? Six months in Bitcoin's now a thing. Six months ago was a totally non entity. How do you start to shift? And so building the pipeline of data of visualizations of actions into the day to day systems and day to day work of the investigator, that's really what we've ended up focusing on. So our system for it to work, your investigators are using that as the system. They show up, everything they do is through that system. Everything's tracked, everything's audited, everything's logged and then we have the opportunity to put all that information together and help them do the right thing.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:28):
So we had started earlier, we were talking a little bit about the old school data warehousing and basically all data warehouses, in my opinion, are destined to fail. I've never worked on a successful one. I ask a room for of the people I say, "Who here has worked on successful data warehousing project from start to finish?" And everybody's like, "Yeah, actually no." So I was going to ask you, how are you able to maintain a level of success? I mean, is it just your background? Do you know that if you just let things go, it would just fail? So what are you doing? What are the iterations you're doing to allow it to be successful?
John Hancock (00:32:06):
Yeah, that's a great question. So I think part of the reason why if you'd diagnose the data warehouse malady it's that thing where super smart people get together and they're way away from the actual day to day problems. And so there's this ivory tower issue. I see that over and over particularly in big law enforcement projects or investigative projects. There are some amazingly smart people out there. And so I think the way that we constantly approach this problem is with humility. We don't do investigations, we aren't investigators. We don't use our software to do investigations. We are our software people. And so the way that we've tackled this issue with the help of our awesome chief design officer, Joe Mylan, who also was one of the people who worked with us back in the project Gemini days, it's really about talking to people, talking to the investigators.
John Hancock (00:32:56):
So the reason I had that funding revelation was because I was sitting there having coffee with somebody who was trying their hardest to do a very difficult job, listening to that person, and then going back and thinking, how can I help that person be more successful? That's what we do all the time. And so I've assembled a team of people who lead with humility. If you meet them all, they're all the good ones who are able to check their technical skills at the door and actually come and listen, and then go back into the technology space and marshal the things they can think of, but do it in a way that you keep constantly in touch with the investigators who have the problem to try and make their lives better. And we don't always succeed. A lot of the time we put so mean together, we get it in front of them and we realize we just haven't hit it.
John Hancock (00:33:43):
We've built 80% of the useful feature. Now we've got to go back and spend double the time building the extra 20% and actually make it show up. We know this pattern and yet we still keep repeating it. We just built some software, we got it all the way through, looked at it and realized once we started showing it to the humans that previously talked to, we built it in a way that was not going to be in their day to day flow. It just wasn't going to make a difference. It was some cul-de-sac. So got to go back and redo that and put it right in front of their actual flow. So that's the thing. I completely agree with data warehouse failure as a patent. I do think it's that super smart people who are not the domain experts as a patent that keeps cropping up.
Rob Collie (00:34:24):
That thing about the ivory tower and smart people getting together and doing something completely detached from reality while self reinforcing each other.
John Hancock (00:34:34):
Yeah. That's the other part, right? Yeah. The people who are on that project, I bet you if you went and talked to those data warehouse projects, quite a lot of the people who led that project got promoted, right?
Rob Collie (00:34:44):
Yeah.
John Hancock (00:34:45):
And so there is a self fulfilling thing about that.
Rob Collie (00:34:47):
It's weird, isn't it? This is like just an ongoing theme for me is the technologists of the world, the people that you need in order to be good at doing something like that, to execute a data project, to execute a software project, you need a certain kind of background. And that background almost overwhelmingly brings with it this other mindset, this ivory tower academic mindset. And it's when you can have that tech background, but break that ivory tower mindset. The technology isn't some way to insulate you from the world. There's a lot of refugee mindset in tech. If I can just mathematically encode the world and all these human beings that I've struggled to deal with, I can finally make sense of it and it's a fools' errand. So yeah, the success has happened when you have that humility, when you step out of that, but retaining your technical skills obviously.
John Hancock (00:35:43):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's another psychology element of that, which comes into play as well, which is that the people who are interested in data in particular and data technologies and all the rest of it, many of us including me are quite introverted. And so the actual act of communicating with other humans, getting up, walking to somebody, picking up the phone, it's counterculture to a lot of people who are interested in data. I still see that the extroverts of the world are not flocking to data science jobs, right?
Rob Collie (00:36:13):
Yeah.
John Hancock (00:36:13):
It is like that old joke how can you spot an extroverted DBA? An extroverted DBA is one who looks at your shoes when he speaks to you. So that joke has stuck with me because it's just so damn true, right? So I think that's that intersection that the introversion as well plays into that where a lot of people like me and data, they have to push themselves out of that to go and actually talk to humans. It's a big challenge. It's a big psychology thing that I think is inherent in all the things we do.
Rob Collie (00:36:45):
On the video feed here, I'm watching Tom rethinking his entire life.
John Hancock (00:36:51):
Yeah. I think I have compassion for that because as I say I'm the CEO of a company now. I actually, I do a lot of sales myself, but I'm constantly pushing myself out of that psychology issue. So I think that's part of our foundational DNA as a company and Hub Stream is that a lot of us are data nerds going back and we just constantly try and push ourselves out. The other nice thing about our culture is that because we have these super interesting customers, that's the other thing, the things they're working on are not boring by any stretch of the imagination. So that helps you to push yourself out because you can be genuinely curious, what is it like, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to achieve? How can I help you?
John Hancock (00:37:29):
And then you do something and it actually makes a difference. And there's this huge reinforcement loop. Because if you can actually make a difference in the day-to-day lives of any investigator... We work with a pharma company that's doing investigations that medications that are counterfeit are killing people all over the place. If you can help that team be a little bit more efficient, a little bit more effective, we wake up every day trying to figure out how to do that. And so that gets us out of that silo and that psychology trap of moving into just let's think about the technology space and back into the real world and back into the day to day lives of real people wherever we can.
Rob Collie (00:38:05):
When did you leave Microsoft to do Hub Stream full time?
John Hancock (00:38:09):
Seven years ago now unbelievably.
Rob Collie (00:38:13):
Wow. That's crazy. Okay. So what triggered it? What triggered the departure? But to me just as even more interesting perhaps is how? Did you get funding? I mean, did you just walk away from that and how did you get people to follow you? It was like this Jerry McGuire moment where you're walking out with the gold fish saying who's coming with me.
John Hancock (00:38:39):
Yeah. It's been definitely a... It's so interesting. Such an interesting journey. So the thing that precipitated it was while I... I was having a fantastic time at Microsoft. I loved working there. Working on PM at Microsoft in the various jobs that I had was awesome. Loved it. It was just so fantastic to be working on that. And I finally was working with a fantastic team who was starting to do new stuff. We got to hang out with Bill Gates occasionally, which was so great. And we were just having a wait over time. And so I was settling in for the duration, right? This is it, here I am now, I'm going to stick around and do this cool thing. And like I said, I had stayed in touch with the digital crimes unit. And what had happened was it had come to the end of its life.
John Hancock (00:39:22):
The project that we'd been working on or they'd been working on, it was out there in the world. It was being used by big law enforcement agencies. And for various reasons, its really hard to maintain a product at Microsoft which this was without a billion dollar market. That's just the reality of it. And so digital crimes unit had done their best, great people, but they couldn't figure out how to continue on the innovation that was going to be required in order to keep up with the demands. And so the guy in charge, the fantastic guy, he just basically eventually said, "Look, we can't continue on doing this. We're not doing them any favors anymore. We're actually in the way of innovation rather than facilitating it." So they had decided that Microsoft was no longer continuing on this journey. So at that point, once I had that conversation with them, I had this massive overwhelming dilemma here, which is okay, I know I could make this work, right?
John Hancock (00:40:20):
I don't need a billion dollar business for this to be successful. I know some awesome, fantastic people that I could take with me and we could go build this company where we could make a difference in the world, we could have an impact and we could also make a successful business out of it that would grow and grow into new areas. And funny enough nowadays when I talk about that philosophy of I'm going to make a company that's going to make a difference and also have a sustainable business model actually quite widely accepted now. If you look around, there's a whole slew of companies now that are impact driven. They are sustainable, they are organized as profit making enterprises and that's how they keep the lights on and pay people salaries and all the rest of it. They're not throwing Galla dinners, they're not trying to get philanthropists to give them money. They're actually trying to build a sustainable business, but they're also have this direct focus on making an impact in the world.
John Hancock (00:41:12):
But back day when I was talking about that, people were like, "Wait, what are you saying here? Are you a for-profit or are you an NGO or a charity or what are you? What are you guys even talking about?" I was like, "I don't have to choose. I can do both those things." That's literally how this is going to work. I'm going to make a successful product. People are going to pay me because it makes things better for them. And also I can make a difference in the world. I didn't have to choose.
Rob Collie (00:41:35):
I love that. Love it, love it, love it. There's something to a small fraction that I find similar in my experience which is that when you set out to be a good deal for all involved, there's something about that that even today sort of runs antithetical to like what's quote unquote considered "good business." There almost has to be a loser somewhere, right? Or someone that's being harvested or milked in order for the real businessy types to like say, oh, you're on the right track. And it turns out if you ignore all of that, you can go and build something that's successful and it is for profit and it has a good business model, but still is good to all the human beings involved in the ecosystem. It's such a thing for us that we even have an internal... It's mostly me that does this, the nobody believed in us, nobody gave us a chance. I didn't watch the super bowl post game but someone said, everybody counted us out, nobody thought we could. It's just guaranteed. And to hear you saying these sorts of things really resonates with me that if you just ignore all of that and go figure out how.
John Hancock (00:42:48):
Yes, that's a challenge, right? So if you switch your brain and, and try and take the, okay, I'm going to do this. There's not some magic line between making the world a better place and being able to do that on a day to day basis for a long time, which is a sustainable business model. If you think that there's a one thing you're going to go do, then you can start planning for that eventuality, right? Like, okay, how do I do that? And that's going to involve thinking very carefully about the business you're going to go build, where's the money coming from, who's paying it, what are they paying it for? And also what opportunities do you have to make the world a better place? And how are you going to go and execute on those while not going out of business because you're doing things that aren't also then leading into inbound revenue.
John Hancock (00:43:28):
So it's a funny thing, even now after all this time, I'm in touch with quite a lot of companies that are trying to pull that off. Whether they're doing human trafficking or whatever the domain is, or video interviews for child victims. There's so many things out there where people are trying to build a sustainable business that has an impact in the world. What we still see even today is there's still biases left where people who start a not for profits can tend to be a bit looked down on for profit companies. Like, oh, well you're not really focused on impact. You're actually in this for the dollar. I see your people are well paid and you have a nice office and yet you claim to be for impact and making the world a better place.
John Hancock (00:44:10):
Somehow the not for profits are better in some sense. But that mental model I think is shifting because the people who fund the impact in that space are also starting to ask questions like, well, what is your long term business model? How are you going to sustain this thing other than us constantly writing checks to you guys and then trying to figure out how to measure your impact. And so we had a lucky thing in our case, which was, I never bothered to try that because in order to go down the road of building a not for profit, you actually have to have background and experience in doing that. I know some people who try to do it without that background and experience and it was a catastrophe because you got to figure out where you going to get the money from, how are you going to measure it? Are you throwing Galla dinners here?
John Hancock (00:44:51):
I realized that if I threw a Galla dinner, no one would want to attend it. It was just the basic fact of the matter. No one's coming to John's Galla dinner. So, okay. Well, if that's not going to work, as you say, you've got to go focus on what's the art of the possible. And I had done a startup before in the late nineties, which coincided with a dot com boom and crash although it wasn't a dot com company. It was this wacky idea we had which was what we called data analysis. No, we didn't call it that. What was it called back then? Business intelligence probably. Business intelligence over the internet. No, it was decision support over the internet. That's how old it was. 1999, 2000. And we built this BI thing, which was a Java front end and we were FTPing from our customers AS400 systems and then giving them back a driver front end that they could log into.
John Hancock (00:45:38):
And so I did that startup in 1999, 2000 with a bunch of other great people and we took money for that startup. And that taught me a lot about what happens when you take money for a startup, right? That ended very badly for all concerned, including those who put the money in but also those of those who worked our bets off was a very bad outcome. We were all stuck with... I try to work for a while, which was just terrible. And the thing that that taught me was that who you take the money from and what their objectives are is going to maybe align with you in certain respects is maybe not going to align with you in other respects. And when things start to go bad or get complicated, that's going to be the most important factor about whether this great venture you have is going to succeed or fail.
John Hancock (00:46:21):
So getting back to there I am at Microsoft, digital crimes unit tells me that they're not continuing on this journey, I've got this business plan. Frankly, I had this little notebook of ideas that I'd been writing in for years. I was like, "Well, of course, I'm not going to do this. But if I did do this thing, what would it look like? How would it work?" And so brought out that thing and looked at it and I was like, "Well, I'm not going down the not for profit road because I don't know how to do that. I'm not going to go and raise money because explaining what I'm doing here is just too complicated. It doesn't fit into the nice buckets that investors are going to go and feel comfortable with. And so I'm really just going to go and do what I see a lot of companies doing in this year, which is bootstrapping. Find a customer where you can add value to them, do the thing with them, keep going and going and build and add more customers."
John Hancock (00:47:10):
And it takes a long time, I'll be the first to testify on that. We went way faster in the company where they injected a bunch of cash, but we also crashed into a wall way faster too. And the fall art was bad for all concerned. They lost all the money. We lost all our work. It sucked just wasn't good for anybody. So the bootstrapping model is a great model, but just you commit to growing at the speed of you can bring customers in and if you want to do different things, you have to try and find a way to carve out that time in the context of giving these customers value. And so that is what when I'm out there in the Seattle world at the moment talking to other people who are doing this impact thing, pretty much everybody is following a similar model. They're trying to build a bootstrap business. Sometimes they manage to get creative models where they can involve the philanthropic world some way in that journey. But most of us are just trying to figure out how to put together profitable businesses, usually cloud based, usually SaaS while also making the world a safer place in whatever way we can. So now it's a thing, it's out there.
Rob Collie (00:48:12):
Again, a lot about that resonates with me. We ended up going the bootstrapping approach to build P3 and you're right. You have to be a lot more patient. It takes a long time to build to the same place that you might have been able to build to if someone had just cut you a check. But I know that reliving the history of our company, there are moments in the history of our company where an investor would've forced us into a short term view of things, like a local minimum. The incentives would've driven us in a direction that was not the most resilient and robust version of us. And we probably wouldn't have made it. I can absolutely imagine that. And so you've got to wait for that what they call the, let me tell you about my 10 year overnight success.
John Hancock (00:49:02):
Yeah. That's exactly it. You see this it's happening quite a lot now that I think the world of venture particularly is changing so radically. Because now you can get going so much more quickly than you could before and that means you can hit customers pretty quickly. By the time I checked my Microsoft badge and exited, I already had line of sight to... Of course we had an advantage because we had the product already from the digital crimes unit area, but we also had customers lined up and we could service them from day one. So as soon as we exit, we had one customer and then another customer, some time went by, we got another one. So we started to build up quickly and that gave us really the freedom to do what we wanted to do. So in addition to growing the business, we've also done insane things. We run this huge global system as a pro bono project. We've never figured out how to get funding for that thing, but it's used by thousands of agencies. And so we just carried on doing that.
Rob Collie (00:49:55):
So John, if I understand it correctly, the crimes against children stuff, that's something that you just continue to provide basically pro bono.
John Hancock (00:50:03):
Well, it's an interesting one, right? Because a lot of the things that happen in the world are local like I said. And trying to get a local police department or the local task force or whatever it is, software, particularly complex hosted software is super hard. So for those kind of cases, we've just basically take the approach of, okay, we're going to have to do our best and do it as a pro bono thing. Sometimes we've figured out government grants or whatever to try and bridge the gaps. But for the other agencies that are doing those kinds of investigations, the big federal ones, they needed more than just technology, they also needed help, right? And so some of them also needed hosting when we finally got to the cloud. And so for them, we've got a bunch of paid services that we can offer that are annual base where we basically work with them.
John Hancock (00:50:49):
We've ended up building an interesting capability as well to go along with that, right? Which is like I say, we make technology. The vast majority of people at Hub Stream are software engineers making the product. It's one big product that used by everybody and then it's tailored to the different domains. It's like a model driven platform, much like imagine if you took the power BI approach of building a model and then you applied it to an active process. So you'd need to have descriptions of the information and things like that and visualizations, but you'd also need workflows and rules and business logic and stuff like that. Take that approach. That's really what Hub Stream, the direction we've gone. So it's a cloud service, it's model driven. So we can go and provide it to people, we can tailor the model to their day to day activities and then they can use that to do the investigations, which may be radically different.
John Hancock (00:51:41):
So to pull that off, we started out with a few different models. We had consultants for a while, that sucked because every day, the bit one thing would come up and then we'd have to say, "Sure, we can help you with that. Let's put together a project proposal." So that model sucked and really got in the way of actually helping customers. We also had a support thing where you could phone up and say, "Hey, I've got this problem," and support would help you. Eventually we learned from what other people are doing in SaaS generally, but particularly in SaaS where it's trying help people achieve a business outcome, which is we've got a customer success team now. And so we stole all of the reproaches and terminologies from the big companies that went ahead of us and customer success is basically a team that is set up to do what it says, help your customers be successful. They are funded essentially by the fact that your customers will renew. So if you help them be successful at the end of the year, end of the three years, whatever the contract is that customer's going to sign up again for another subscription because they've been successful using the software. So you can fund your work to help them as part of that recurring revenue bucket. So our customer success team is really the key to what we're doing.
Rob Collie (00:52:49):
Can I be a little difficult for a moment and say you had your consulting and support and those didn't work. So you renamed those two things customer success, and that works. What is it that's truly different?
John Hancock (00:53:05):
Yeah, that's a great question. So the first and most important thing is how's that group funded? Where's the funding for this? Like for consulting, it's easy. You have to make 20% margin. So if you do fixed price things, you figure out how to quote people that plus 20% and that's how you... So you can go, how do you know you can hire another one? Well, when you've got more work than you have opportunities, you go hire another one, right? And if that goes the other direction, sorry, Mr. Consultant, or Miss consultant, you're out of here. We don't have enough work and you've been on the bench for three months. So that model, I understand having been one of those consultants. So for customer success, the big difference is we price this subscription knowing that we have to fund X amount of people to help be successful.
John Hancock (00:53:49):
So right from the get go, our pricing model, we don't have a line item, we don't have hourly rates generally. We've gotten completely away from that. Now our subscription, when I pitch it to people, they go, wow, that's really simple every time. We work with you we figure out what your domain is, we figure out how many users you've got, what kind of data you've got, what the volumes are we talking about? And then we use patent matching to go, okay, you're like this customer that we've had already. And so we know roughly how much time we'll need to spend to make them successful. And then the way that model works in practice is you make a huge loss in year one because they need a ton of help, right? They're getting going. Year two, they start to get involved in the system and there's a lot of stability, okay, but they do still find these new opportunities like, oh, we realize we've now got this hub of all our information, but there's this thing over here that we haven't incorporated yet.
John Hancock (00:54:41):
Year two, you start to balance out and break even. And then year three, then you can be profitable because by then the customer has figured out what they want to do and they're actually incentivized to churn more slowly in terms of their requirements, because they've got a bunch of people all using this thing and they start to only move in smaller increments so that the wave of innovation slows down but still keeps going, but in smaller little increments. So once we figured model, now you can fund somebody whose job it is to help your customers be successful. And on a amortized all customers long-term basis, you can balance out the books. And so that was a huge thing for us. Once we figured out that we needed to incorporate that mentality into how we price the product, that was what shifted us over into a much better place.
Rob Collie (00:55:31):
John, the more I hear from you about all this, the more I'm glad that you're on the side of good, because your ability to play the long game is something else. And it's one of those, again, we really need to write the comic book. Because somewhere there's your alter ego that's playing on the other side.
John Hancock (00:55:54):
That's a good one, man. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:56):
So look at it. In the early two thousands, you saw where the world was headed in terms of law enforcement, something you said earlier, you just saw it all ahead of time. I recognized the way that voice you did see it, I believe it. As a humorous aside at the beginning you said, well, I was the number two data guy in Canad, right? And you'd been trying to catch that number one for so long and you couldn't. And so instead you said, "You know what? Screw this. I'm going to go to Microsoft and help build the platform that destroys the domain in which he was number one. I'm going to take that supremacy from him." And once that was done, that's when you went after crime.
John Hancock (00:56:36):
Yeah. It sounds great. Actually, to be honest, I was just trying desperately to get to know as much as that guy did it all the time because it was such an inspiration, oh my God. When you get a really good data nerd and they walk in and they look at the query pan with one eye closed and they're like, "Yeah, all you need is an index," and all the lights just come back on, everything's great.
Rob Collie (00:56:57):
So when we started talking about databases, data warehouses, things like that, we got pretty deep down that particular rabbit hole but I want to bring us back to what is it that Hub Stream is doing? I'm sure it's doing lots of things, but at its core, it sounds like you have a tremendous amount of disparate types of data and more in new types of data every day that you need to be correlating. If you go back to the bob54@hotmail example, right? Am I on the right track? Is that close to the spinal column of upstream?
John Hancock (00:57:33):
Absolutely. And it goes into the big challenge with investigative data, right? Is that when I came into the space, maybe just tell a little story, that'll probably be the easiest way to frame this. So I was working, helping banks, right? So you're in a bank, you go and collect the transaction data, you bring it up there, you add it up, you slice it, you dice it, you're good, right? It's facts. Like you said before, it's what it is, right? So in investigations, there's this weird thing that happens and I learnt this...
John Hancock (00:58:03):
In investigations, there's this weird thing that happens and I learned this pretty early on, very publicly and embarrassingly actually, which was, I was starting to get into the space and we had finally got to the point with our conversations with the police agencies we were working with, where we started to put together data sets and starting to look into them.
John Hancock (00:58:18):
And as you said the first thing you think of is correlation. Okay, let's go and see which ones match together. And so we loaded it all up, matched all the things together, we looked for email addresses, we looked for phone numbers, we looked for all kinds of information that would relate things together right? Correlations. Links. We're super excited, we finish up the query, it completes, and it pops to the top the most correlated thing in the system.
John Hancock (00:58:42):
We're like "Wow, we found the most correlated thing and oh my God, it's like correlating 26 different cases. This is like a criminal mastermind here. We have found the criminal mastermind. This is awesome." And the cops go "Well, who is it?" And I say, "It's a@a.com." Ah Shit, in that moment I had this radical revelation again, which was, "Oh my God, criminals lie."
John Hancock (00:59:06):
Oh yeah. The cops that were there, they're looking at me like, "Yeah you, Microsoft guys are smart in like a very specialized kind of way right?" Because, yes my brain criminals lie. That's absolutely true. The data that you're getting in, the signal that's coming into you, is full of incorrect data as we would call it in the old world. But in criminal world, it's people trying to cover their tracks. They are literally out there on purpose trying to deceive you.
John Hancock (00:59:34):
They are trying to make these things not facts. Because if you can find enough facts, you can go kick in some doors right? So the interesting part about Hubstream is, trying to say, "Okay, we know we're building you your day to day system, because that's the only way we can really influence your behavior. So you sign on, now every single thing you do from receiving a bunch of reports into you, all the way through to the end game of arrest and beyond is in the system, you're in Hubstream, that's what you're doing." So now in order to help you, the trick about Hubstream is how do you actually show them the relevant information, even in a world where a@a.com is a thing? And so at its core what hub stream's doing basically in addition to the usual, line of business type system things which is transactional, audit security, all those kinds of workflow, that's a huge thing for us, workflow automation, all that stuff.
John Hancock (01:00:27):
The interesting data part of it is about taking in all that different data from all these different sources and then trying to match it together in a way that helps you see these patterns while also excluding links that are really not useful to you. So that's where the system tuning and all the rest of it, all the user experience is really built around that. Because the superpower that you actually have in the scenario turns out not to be technology, it turns out to be the human. So the human staring at the screen has these superpowers, which is that they are trained, they are skeptical, they're cynical, they know what people do, they know if you look at the word a@a.com, they understand, "Oh yeah that's a non-validated email address." Like people could put in whatever they wanted to. So of course that's what they did.
John Hancock (01:01:11):
So the superpower is the human and that's actually what makes the arrests. When people talk about Hubstream being involved in things, I'm always humble about that. Because, we are not the ones making the arrests. All we're trying to do is, we augment the human that's sitting there in front of the screen. You try and bring all the relevant things together, you try and tune out the noise and you try and actually empower that person to do what they do well, which is investigate. I'm not one, but I know the good ones. And all we're trying to do is power them up. The data nerds among those are probably thinking, "Well, how the hell did you do that? how do you actually model that?"
John Hancock (01:01:45):
So the cool thing about this actually in a funny way was our experience on Power Pivot. Because in Power Pivot, we spent all this time trying to build models that represent the real world. And now Power BI today, as you said, the beating heart of all that stuff comes back to the model. It's a model driven thing. So when we started building the Hubstream technology, when Devarajan, our CTO, and I were talking about it and we're starting to think this one through, we decided to do something a little different in this world. Which is, we said, "Okay, we are actually starting with a model. This model is going to be driving more than it would do in a BI scenario, which is mostly about understanding data, it's going to be put to even more work than that because it's going to also say what workflows happen and what permissions there are." It does a ton of stuff, but it's all built around an idea of a model at its core. And so the software is set up so that tomorrow, when you come in and Bitcoin is now a thing, instead of having to re architect your system and build these new things, you go in and change the model. So you go and say, "Right now I have Bitcoin as a thing" or payment method or whatever, you end up modeling it as, and you go and deploy that into the system. And voila, now when you sign on next time you hit refresh, you sign in in the morning, "Oh, now Bitcoin a thing."
John Hancock (01:03:02):
So that evolution, the system's set up to evolve in that way. So it's all completely model driven from the get go. Literally that was the next thing we did. The endeavor after our adventures in BI, we spent all these years in BI so we are a system for investigators built by a bunch of BI people. So it is in many ways the spiritual successor to the semantic models we've done in BI for many years, but applied to this particular domain.
Rob Collie (01:03:29):
That's fascinating. Okay, I'm not necessarily smart enough to have understood everything you just said in that compactible form. But I do recognize when I'm hearing something intelligent.
John Hancock (01:03:42):
It's just my accent. It fakes everybody.
Rob Collie (01:03:48):
I think we're probably better off sneaking up on people. We give you Southern United States draw and people really wouldn't see you coming then which is basically half my family by the way. Smart people with that voice, they kind of catch you off guard sometimes. But yeah, you fit the role. You live up to your voice John. Don't you fret.
Rob Collie (01:04:06):
So there's code in your product, it's a software product. But are you saying that when something new comes along, like a new type of data, you can go and sort of integrate that into the model without having to really mess with the core code of the rest of the software.
John Hancock (01:04:27):
That's exactly right. See, here's how that's even cooler than you might think at the beginning. We thought of this originally and thought "This is a cool idea." And me and Devarajan super excited with our whiteboards and tap dancing and, this is great, this is going to be awesome. Like I've never seen anyone build a system like this before we are going to go build it like that. We're going to merge the best of this BI model driven thing with the world of investigations. Voila, a whole new thing.
John Hancock (01:04:52):
It turned out way better than we had hoped even. Because, it turns out that every organization we worked with has different nuances to how they treat that information. Not only that, but if you look at the different domains of investigations, investigations turned out to be bigger and more complicated than we thought, basically more diverse, more wide ranging.
John Hancock (01:05:12):
We found investigative scenarios that we're now used in that are radically different than what you would've thought of originally. So for example, one of our biggest projects at the moment is to build a national transportation safety investigation system. So, that's an entirely different domain. If a plane crashes, you're going to go do an investigation, which involves hundreds of people and thousands of pieces of evidence and all this stuff. So the reason we're able to do that project is because of what I just said there, we have a model. Now we walk in there and there are a few concepts in that model that are the same from online crime versus transportation safety investigations. Like, you have an investigation, you have notes, you have documents. But there's a ton of stuff that is completely specific to that. Not just that domain but that particular country's implementation of that domain.
John Hancock (01:06:02):
And because we're a model driven thing, the process of actually deploying the technology is, Hubstream brings the technology. We usually have consulting partners for a big project like that, who are sitting there talking to the transportation safety investigator saying, "Oh, there's a thing called an aircraft. Okay. What kinds of information are you tracking on and how do you use it?" And they sit there and they set up the model and they hit deploy, time goes by, refresh and then they see, "Okay, great. Now I can relate aircraft to my investigation. Now I can relate all these different elements over to it."
John Hancock (01:06:34):
So that's actually has been the value of what it was we built. We wanted to have it able to set up to evolve quickly. And boy, was that a good idea. Because like I say, real world is always more complicated than you think. And that's actually been the way that we've got the technology out in increasing scope and increasing variety of investigations because of the fact that every customer you walk up to that's choosing Hubstream, If you go and look at what their model looks like and what their screens look like and their workflows, it's quite different. Even within theoretically the same domain, two countries, two different agencies, they may approach it differently, they may model it differently.
Rob Collie (01:07:10):
Wow. Okay, so if I didn't know you as well as I do, and I know you well enough, if you were anyone else, if you were a stranger after what you just said, I would've gone, "Oh, come on that's bullshit."
John Hancock (01:07:27):
Wow. I finally hit the bullshit meter. Yay.
Rob Collie (01:07:29):
I know. No, but I mean you've actually hit the holy grail. So what you just described in some sense, it's kind of like every computer scientist's dream. Especially like a graduate computer scientist, before they go out into the world, there's just this thing with computer scientists, and I was very much guilty of this at least for the first half of my career at Microsoft, which is "Ooh, everything can be reduced to these symbolic models and really everything in the world is best understood through a mathematical lens." And it's all, as I said, that's all bullshit.
Rob Collie (01:08:03):
You've acquitted yourself of this crime.
John Hancock (01:08:05):
In advance.
Rob Collie (01:08:05):
Multiple times on this recording already. It is about the humans right? And so that thing where you're saying like, "Hey, we can come up with this abstract modeling approach that will flex to completely different domains. And the software kind of just sort of keeps working." That doesn't happen, that plan has been drawn up. There's right now, 5,000 people in the world right now putting the finishing touches on a plan of similar abstractness and not one of them is going to work.
John Hancock (01:08:40):
Yes, I completely agree. They're going to use the word ontology.
Rob Collie (01:08:40):
Well that's right. Yeah.
John Hancock (01:08:44):
Which is of course fatal. So I think there are some factors as always, because here's the thing, we're not actually trying to solve everything. So what I see out there a lot at the moment is this whole, no code or low code revolution where to some degree they're trying to make claims about that. But the thing is that to truly do this as like a universal version of what I said, that can handle apps for collecting project information versus the analysis of, or the sale of tangerines or whatever it's. To do this on a super generic way, I think is impossible in our lifetime. It's not going to work. But what we did was we said, "No, we are focusing in very specifically on investigations" which when you're Microsoft sounds like the tiniest of niches in the universe.
John Hancock (01:09:33):
But in the actual world, there are thousands, tens of thousands of people who have investigator in their DNA or their job title or their team's name. But by focusing in on what to other people is a very small niche, we can take out of that the basic concepts, not the domain concepts, but the basic ideas of what those humans are trying to do, because that's what repeats. And that's what we can actually say, regardless of whether you're looking in detail at an aircraft, that's shown up in multiple crashes, or looking at an IP address that's shown up in 400 reports of malware, what you as the human are doing, as an investigator, bears an awful lot of resemblance between those two different scenarios. You're trying to manage a large flow of information, you're trying to use your powers of observation, your skepticism, your natural curiosity to go after connections, prune things that don't make sense, add things that do.
John Hancock (01:10:28):
So that's why I think we've actually been successful with this approach. I wouldn't say that some no code platform could do what I just said and solve every kind of use case that's out there, but having had the track record over the last six years I can tell you that investigators share a lot of common DNA. And so by focusing on the user side of this, you can take away the things that are truly irrelevant actually, which is the structure of the dates, what the domain is, what those concepts are. You just take that away from the core of it. And that becomes the flex part. That's the part that flexes, but you actually sit down to Hubstream, what's common across all of our customers is that they get in a lot of information, they need to resolve it, they need to investigate, and that's actually the common thread the ties it altogether
Rob Collie (01:11:11):
For each sort of type of information, are you using similar storage for each kind? What is your storage technology of choice?
John Hancock (01:11:23):
Yes, it's totally proprietary. And I cannot tell you that without... I joke a little bit, but actually, boy have we spent half a decade working on that question. And every generation of our technology, we go out there in search of the universal answer. And actually there isn't a universal answer to that question. So what we actually end up doing is taking a combination approach. Every time we come back to the practical which is, you know what, SQL server, SQL Azure or SQL something is awesome for these things. Blob storage, variations on that, awesome for these things. A NoSQL world with a flexible schema less thing, awesome for these kinds of things. So we end up basically assembling and building integration, building layers on top of, building translations, building, building, building to knit these things together.
John Hancock (01:12:17):
Now the world of data at the moment, data platforms are constantly... every time I go out there, someone's promising that they've solved this. They have the truly heterogeneous thing. Yeah, that's not true. We haven't found anything that will truly answer that question. I'm sure that all the vendors out there'll be like, "No, ours is the one we have finally solved this truly heterogenous platform thing. It can do NoSQL, it can do Blob storage, it can do relational." Yeah, not for us it can't. So the answer is, the world's a complicated place, our storage layer is complicated. Every generation, it gets smarter and uses more and more cool things. But at the end of the day, there isn't one answer to that problem.
Rob Collie (01:12:55):
Well, so now I can check off my check mark is that I finally got close enough to something sensitive that you can't tell me all the details. And I love that, but you still answered the question though.
John Hancock (01:13:04):
I didn't say how we solved it, but I'm telling you, it's a knitting together of the best of things we can find at the generation that we're at right now and next generation will be the same thing again.
Rob Collie (01:13:15):
Yeah I found that meal to be very satisfying though. That wasn't empty calories. I'm a satisfied customer. Moving on, you mentioned the similarity between investigations, been reading a lot about COVID lately and questions like how effective are the vaccines against the variants. How long does the immunity last, can you get COVID twice, all these sorts of things. And every time a real medical expert gets on the hook with a question like this, the answer's always, "Mm-mm (negative) you don't really know." It's really squishy, it's not facts. And I was wondering do you think that at some point there might be a medical investigation, like this might be within your purview?
John Hancock (01:14:02):
Absolutely. We actually have a project with one of the big pharmaceutical companies at the moment. That is a really tricky area I have to say, we worked with law enforcement for a lot of years, which I thought was complicated and had a lot of regulation, had a lot of procurement issues. Boy, does healthcare blow them out the water. They are the most complicated area that we've ever worked in. There's a lot of constraints on healthcare generally. But I also see when I go in there that because of that, it's kind of been a [inaudible 01:14:33] into some degree. Like there's not a lot of, I would say from what I've seen, this may not be universally true, but because of all those constraints on them, there's a real sort of limitation in terms of what it is that they can get done.
John Hancock (01:14:44):
So I think there's actually a ton of opportunity to make the world a slightly safer place by going in there and starting to help them out. For example, law enforcement for many years has not been able to touch the Cloud. Cloud, super scary, not going anywhere near it. Well, in the last three or four years, that's really started to shift and people are moving over. For pharma, it's still not the case. They're still stuck within the constraints. I'm just looking at that as probably one of the bigger areas for innovation in the future. Not just us of course, but all the other people out there who have technologies that they can bring to bear, because it's such a critical part of the world. You look at things like counterfeit medications in Africa that kills a lot of people, counterfeit cancer medications, boy is that a scary term.
John Hancock (01:15:28):
So I think that there's a huge opportunity to go in there and bring some of the investigative technologies and approaches from, even from things like investigating cyber crime and bring that into the world of medical and healthcare. And so that's definitely something I'm really looking forward to get further into. But boy, is that a tricky problem.
Rob Collie (01:15:46):
I bet, but I would've never guessed that it was harder than law enforcement.
John Hancock (01:15:50):
Yeah. I think it's because law enforcement's regulated, but healthcare is just one of those... Such a regulated world. Every step that they take is governed by regulation. It's all private organizations and because of that, how we as a society have chosen to maneuver is we say, "Okay, a lot of the innovation and services are going to be provided by private sector companies but healthcare is a tricky thing, human lives are at stake, so you've got to regulate the hell out of it." So It's this weird combination of private sector, but super critical to as a society and therefore highly regulated. That's been the interesting and fun part about tackling that area.
Rob Collie (01:16:29):
At first blush, I would think that the regulations would make it easier because everything kind of fits into, one size fits all in a regulated... like wild west would be harder. Are you saying that regulation suppresses data? Is it like the HIPAA stuff? You can't link it back to the individual, so you really can't correlate.
John Hancock (01:16:48):
Well, it's more like every step you take has regulation. So whatever it is you're doing, you can't color outside the lines because the lines are everywhere. You're surrounded by lines. And so, it's not like you can't do anything, but everything you do, you have to be aware and conscious of the regulations. And so we spend a lot of time talking to the [inaudible 01:17:11] customer about, and they tell us things that surprise us constantly. Like "Really? If you do that, you have to do this? I'm quite surprised by that." So once you get into the actual day to day operations, they're not free to move at all. We've decided as a society that they are going to be constrained and every step they take, they're going to think it through, they're going to think of ramifications. And so that's what makes it challenging.
John Hancock (01:17:34):
We are learning from them. I'm sure it must be a big learning curve getting into healthcare as a starting point, what exactly the spaces that they have to maneuver and what the responsibilities are that they have as a provider of healthcare solutions, whether that's medication or something else. So for example, if they're find out that something has caused an adverse effect, there's a lot of regulation that says what they have to do next, they can't just go "Oh, interesting." And move on to the next report, they have to actually do something.
Rob Collie (01:18:02):
And there's also things like even just taking this data from over here and that data from over there and putting them on the same server at the same time. If you do you that you've committed a felony or something and without ever knowing it.
John Hancock (01:18:15):
That's exactly it. So everything is constrained and that's what's the challenging part about that. But like I said, I really do feel like that area of our society is really ripe for some help, in terms of bringing in technologies to help people understand what's going on. Because there's a lot of crime out there that revolves around this stuff, counterfeit medications is just a starting point. It's a massive, massive thing. As someone who grew up in Africa, it's a lot more often in the news over there than it is in the U.S. but it's definitely something that causes a lot of pain and suffering in the world.
Rob Collie (01:18:50):
I believe it. And I do believe that it could use a lot of help. That's for sure. I asked that question about the medical field, thinking maybe I was going to stretch your brain.
John Hancock (01:18:59):
It would've done a year ago. Boy, has it been a year.
Rob Collie (01:19:01):
I should have caught you a year ago. I'd have felt better about myself. Instead you're like, "Yeah, yeah all over it." Which is awesome by the way. Okay, so something about the way your technology works, the way that the data model is separate and flexible from the code itself, the actual instructions that you've programmed into the software over time. My first job at Microsoft, I was a software tester, a test engineer on Office 97 setup.
John Hancock (01:19:29):
Okay. Thrilling.
Rob Collie (01:19:31):
Oh my God you have no idea how exciting it was. For the first six months I was just blissful. I was like, "Oh my God, I'm working at Microsoft." I'm like, "Oh, Office 97." And the setup scripts, the setup engine, Office had it's own setup engine that it wrote for installing software. It was called ACME. And by the way, this became the source of a band name that I had never formed. I never formed the band, but we did name our cross country racing team at Microsoft after this. One time I saw a build report for ACME, something about Swedish ACME had failed, the Swedish language version of the ACME installer had failed its build. So that we named our team Swedish ACME from that point forward, just sounded like some weird Wile E. Coyote thing, but there was another installation engine in development.
Rob Collie (01:20:22):
The problem with ACME and really with all installers at that point was that it was procedural. The scripts that you would write to install stuff would be like, go write this registry key, go put this file there, go do whatever. Like it was a set of instructions, which is what you would expect to go install the software. Guess what? Then you need to run the other modes like reinstall, to repair if something has sort of gone wrong or uninstall, heaven forbid you need to run an uninstall. Because the uninstall script was then a completely separate pathway through the... It was separate code. You had to write code that says, go remove this file, go remove that registry key or whatever. And so what you found was is that the setup part, the setup script was actually well tested and well debugged relative to every other pathway. Uninstall almost never worked.
Rob Collie (01:21:24):
And it was just so dumb in a way. So a couple people on that team had a really smart idea, which was to take installation, take software installation and make it a non procedural language, make it a declarative language. Instead of writing code that says, go write this file, put it here, write this registry key. They came up with this idea that there'd be a database that describes the application. The application consists of these groups of files and registry keys, and shortcuts and things like that. And then we built a separate engine. Its job was to read that database and decide how to install things, read that database and decide how to uninstall things. And then we could test that code, the uninstall reinstall code in the main engine, we could test it and really thoroughly debug it, make it solid. And then all that people had to do was basically describe the contents of their application to what's in these databases.
Rob Collie (01:22:24):
It was my first brush with a concept in the nerdy ontological sense, it's called declarative programming. It's hard to do, it's hard to build systems that work that way. This one ended up being called MSI windows installer. And it actually worked, I mean it was a hard project. It was the first project that I was program manager on. That was my first PM job. And I was allowed to be PM of that project because no one else wanted that crappy job.
John Hancock (01:22:56):
That's foundational though, that's big technology you end up building there. That sticked around for a long time.
Rob Collie (01:23:01):
Yeah. It's one of those things that is now amazing because you never notice it and that's what you want in a setup technology and it is a game changer. It actually has made windows far easier to manage. It really has been a great success. And it's also how I got involved in all kinds of places that I shouldn't have been at when I was 25 years old at Microsoft, I was interacting with some people that I had no business interacting with and it showed. There's something about your story, in another show that we've already recorded, but it hasn't gone out yet. We were talking to Chuck Sterling about these power virtual agents and how the code of the front end, the chat bot doesn't change. You're just feeding it new topics behind the scenes. So it's this more of a declarative data driven, leave the code alone as much as you can. And when you can build something like that and it works, it's a home run. It's hard to do.
John Hancock (01:24:03):
Yeah, It is. We are fortunate in that we started with this idea in mind. I don't fancy anyone's chances of grafting that on later, if you haven't started out with that in mind, good luck to you. But the huge advantage we have is I get out there now and I see a couple of different approaches to building systems for investigations. The one is, that sort of traditional case management thing. And when you go out and look at that stuff, they're written code that says, "Okay, I need to manage a person." The page has this on it, it has a name, it has a picture, it has a save button and they've written the code and everything is all tied together. So you look at those systems and of course they're all horrifically out of date and slow moving. Then I go into large government agencies and there's a name of a company that I shall not mention, but they're a very big multi-billion dollar provider of investigative solutions basically, platforms. When they're out there and they go into their clients, they deploy the technology, they have these sort of black cloud engineers that come in and do the data science and set it all up.
John Hancock (01:25:04):
And then the customer gets going. And of course the world changes and Bitcoin happens or something else happens. And then they go to that vendor and they say, "Yes, we now need to have a column that says Bitcoin." And they go, "Yes, we'll get to right on that for you. That will be $20,000 to add that field." There's this whole consulting driven world where they're basically building these things, using smart data sciencey engineers. All this is the world where everything is super static and written by developers 14 years ago and imported over through generations.
John Hancock (01:25:35):
Those two worlds don't work when you go out there and you see it in action. So like I say, we're fortunate to have come from the background we had, the weird sort of unique journey that we got to this place, but then day one was saying, "Okay, we aren't going to go and write hard coded screens in the system and we also sure as hell are not building a consulting company." I was a consultant. I knew I wasn't building a consulting company from day one. So what else is left given that the fact that you're a bunch of guys that just came from Power Pivot. Hey, you start with the model right? Everything has come around that model. And that's actually been the sort of superpower behind it all.
Rob Collie (01:26:10):
In all sincerity. Congratulations, not just on the product, even just the nerd in me, the nerd that's sort of been tamed and turned into more of an ambassador to the humans. The system that you've built, it just sounds gorgeous in all the ways that count. And it also sounds like you put together an amazing team.
John Hancock (01:26:31):
Those two things went together definitely.
Rob Collie (01:26:34):
You're going to be famous. Don't forget about us, John.
John Hancock (01:26:37):
I hope not. I'll settle for just really, really rich.
Rob Collie (01:26:40):
Okay. Do you ever worry that at some point your system will be so widely used that criminals will start to try to understand how it works so that they can cover their tracks better against it?
John Hancock (01:26:54):
Not really, because it's true every single day that there's an arms race, and the arms race is between the criminal and the investigator. So we write tools that help.
John Hancock (01:27:03):
[inaudible 01:27:00] is between the criminal and the investigator. So, we write tools that help the investigator, but really what's actually going on is people are on a daily basis trying to figure out how to cover their tracks from those people who are society as sent to enforce the law. We are just a part of that machinery. We help build the platforms and the tools, but there's nothing about how the Hubstream system works, that is some kind of unfair advantage to the investigator. Like I said, the only real secret or the truth behind it all, is that the smarts come from the human in front of the screen. Every day investigators show up to work and the criminals are doing something weird that they weren't the day before. That investigator has to adapt or they have to retire.
John Hancock (01:27:46):
We're basically supplying the platforms that those people use. It's never going to be the case that there's someone's going to find out something about how investigations work, just by looking at either our technology or even the models that our customers have put together. What you really got to do if you... as a criminal, if you really want to get ahead of law enforcement, is you've got to reverse engineer the brain of an investigator and figure out how to trick them. That's actually what criminals do all the time. They're constantly figuring out ways to look like something else. That's what they wake up every day and try and do. They're covering the tracks from the other humans, not from the technology.
Rob Collie (01:28:20):
Okay. Okay. Fine. But if you ever snapped. If you just had enough, right and you decided to Break Bad... you'd be a better criminal now, wouldn't you? You'd be able to avoid your own system?
John Hancock (01:28:34):
I don't think so. Here's the thing, you spend all your time in one brain, right. You're going after one thing. What I am is really understanding, and empathetic, and compassionate, about the challenges of the job of an investigator. Particularly in the darker areas where they show up for work every day and they're looking at pictures that the rest of us humans would see one in an entire lifetime, and be traumatized. They look at hundreds an hour, thousands an hour, tens of thousands an hour. Where the sort of weird learnings that I've had over these years have a lot more to do with a real understanding of the job of what investigators have to do. I think, if you were trying to be a master criminal, you should probably get up every day and try and evade law enforcement. That would be the way to go. Just like everything else you'll have to put in your 10,000 hours of evading law enforcement and then you'll get better and better at it. Maybe you'll go hang out with some master criminals. That's really the way to go.
Rob Collie (01:29:33):
I don't know, man. It seems like that knowledge of their humanity, those investigators, their deep humanity and knowing what makes them tick-
John Hancock (01:29:41):
Maybe I could turn it against them is what you're saying.
Rob Collie (01:29:44):
That's precisely what would make you so dangerous. Don't ever become evil John, because by the way, your accent would work well with that too. I could see a movie coming. No problem.
John Hancock (01:29:57):
Okay.
Thomas LaRock (01:29:58):
I'm fascinated by the work, the data. Part of my journey has been historically production database administrator, and that's kind of what I was when I came on Rob's radar. Although, I had jumped to a software company. Part of my journey is the last four years now, four plus years, I've been getting much more involved in data science. I've probably touched Excel more in these past five years or so, than ever. What you've built, I just have so much respect for the challenge you've taken on, how you've done it, and the work you're doing is important work. Tip of the hat to you, good sir.
John Hancock (01:30:48):
Yeah. And this is a probably good opportunity to talk about the other success factor on this, which is definitely team, right. That was the other part you said, we were talking earlier about the whole customer success journey. We had to learn our way into that, right? All these things. We've screwed up things. We've messed up. We've made mistakes. Then we've kind of had two course-correct. I'm really happy where we've ended up. I think the key thing about all of this is definitely team. If I look at the successful products or projects like this, generally, you got to have a different set of personalities all working together to make it work. My center of gravity is about product. It's about... I can spot the problem that needs solving and I can come up with a rough parameters of what a solution's going to look like. That intersection of real world, and then translating all the problems you could go solve into, we're going to focus on this one.
John Hancock (01:31:42):
These are the shape of it. This is the parameter. That's one element. I don't do so many other things. That's where I had such a great success. I went in mind, all of the relationships that I built in those great people at Microsoft. I found the people in that domain that kind of filled out the requirements. In addition to product, you also have to have design, which I maintain is different. Somewhat controversially, sometimes. I've worked with this fantastic guy, Joe Marline, for many years. When he and I are working together, the lights come up much brighter because he understands the human element and he pushes towards that all the time. He's just this great creativity that comes into figuring out how are we going to do this? What is this going to look like? How's it going to feel?
John Hancock (01:32:25):
That's just such a key piece. Then the other part of that is, I've... I was a professional programmer back in the day, but I was never at the level to build these big systems. Luckily at Microsoft, there's a lot of people around who can build those big systems. Some of them are not as much fun to work with as others, I will say. I had the really fortunate experience, as did Rob, of working with an absolutely fantastic guy [Devarajan Muthukumarasamy 01:32:55], who is just an awesome dev lead on our team. Then had grown up into this guy who was doing the architecture for these big cloud services and things like that. He was one of the first people to start architecting these large scale things for BI. I was fortunate enough to have a really good relationship with him and he's come over for all these years as our CTO.
John Hancock (01:33:14):
That means that I now have the super power. I have this fantastic design person who can help figure out the solution. Then I have someone who can build these fantastic large-scale systems, who can manage teams, who can build a team, keep that team productively occupied. Then, the third part of that is the customer element. The third sort of part of this journey is about, how do you get people who can go out there in the world and understand the domain, which is the crime domain? Also have this technology sort of consulting, consultative experience. That's our director at Na VP of Customer and Partner success, Paul Whitaker. He came from military background. Then he went and worked for Microsoft consulting for many years and was helping the FBI to do their systems.
John Hancock (01:33:58):
I met him at Microsoft and was just so impressed by his ability to join those two things together. Technology and the customer and get them good solutions. That's really, I think, where I lay the sort of credit for how this has gone well, to the extent that we've helped our customers and built the company is, to solve the problems, which are super excruciating hard. As you said, they change all the time. They keep evolving. That's been a real fantastic element of it, is having all these people together who can bring those different sides. The technology, the design, the customer angle, and product, and then build out the product around that.
Rob Collie (01:34:32):
I want to emphasize something you said about team. I completely agree. This is something that in general, I think the entire society, we should be reminding ourselves of this over and over and over again, multiple times per day. We need it so much. Remember that a single human being alone on the wilderness is a meal for a 60 pound cheetah. We're just so helpless. 10 human beings with pointy sticks though. Hmm. Drive the wooly mammoth to extinction. This belief that you can survive as an island or whatever, or it's us versus them. All of that. Is just so dumb. It's just so dumb. By the way, what's the most dangerous thing to 10 human beings with pointy sticks? Another 10 human beings with pointy sticks. If you're not cooperating, whether at a company or at any level of organization, cooperation is just insane in terms of what it can do.
Rob Collie (01:35:38):
Having started at Microsoft right out of college, I sort of just joined this massive organization. I got to take it for granted from the very beginning. Starting essentially from zero and building something from the ground up is so educational. I will never view the world the same again. I will never think of myself the same way. The way that I view my own capabilities is different as a result of it. Of course, just the way things work. You would never mention yourself necessarily in the same glowing light, but you are an incredibly important part of that at same team. You, John, that you just talked about. Those people had to leave. Deva had to leave the Microsoft job and go with you. At some point, right? He had to believe in you. I understand that.
John Hancock (01:36:29):
Yeah. It's a huge learning adventure. I mean, I had done a couple of companies around us, but this has been such a journey of education. It's interesting hearing you point out the office thing. Office, at Microsoft, was one of those organizations that did recruit right out of cottage and grew people up through the office system. Whereas SQL server, where I landed, was very much not that. They kind of tended to recruit from people who had experience and then came in. It did create this differing culture. When I left, I had the opportunity to start thinking through how we would do that. Where we've ended up actually, is, as we scaled up the company, we've actually taken the office model, which is we've been recruiting the vast majority of our company, comes in from as university graduates now.
John Hancock (01:37:14):
We bring them up in engineering on Deva's team, and then they grow up as a Hubstream engineer through that cycle. We've invested all our energy into basically coming up with a model, that we can scale. Where we bring people in and then we mentor them and we grow them. Then that team grows up. That's not how we started out, because that's not what my background was. It's become a very interesting way to grow the company in terms of how to scale all those different elements I was talking about and still have the way to keep your culture whole and keep growing that kind of office model of growing your own constituents in your own culture. It's hard. It's difficult. It can be slow. At the end of it all, you get more control over how that company's unfolding.
Rob Collie (01:38:00):
It's really funny, that I grew up in the office system, and at Microsoft, you grew up in the SQL system. You've chosen the office model and we only hire experienced, in our company.
John Hancock (01:38:10):
You flip over. I think the other element though, is that in customer success, it's different obviously because you know, having some experience helps. The most of my company is actually our engineering. They're building a software product. For that, the office model works fantastically. You can really go hire fantastic people at the very beginning of their career. If you can identify the right ones, if you can give them the right support, then you can grow them into these great teams without having to go out and do recruiting for more senior people. You can grow your own. Yeah, I've very much appreciated that model. That's something we've been doing well over the last couple of years, I think.
Rob Collie (01:38:47):
We cheat a little bit because we sort of halfway, intentionally, halfway, unintentionally, we sort of select for the culture that we want. Our consulting team is only... is a 100% experienced hire thing. One of the two questions I wrote down, that I want to make sure I get to before we wrap. One of them is, what is the profile of the customer success managers? What are those people's backgrounds? How do you recruit them? Where do you go looking for them?
John Hancock (01:39:11):
Yeah, that's one that we'd... I wouldn't say there's a template for. That one's a super tricky hire. We're growing that team pretty slowly. One at a time. Everyone is a custom. That's a one where we're trying to find people. We look at them, we look at our customers and we try and see does this puzzle piece, which is a complicated, unique, special snowflake, does that fit into the team that we've got? And how they're going to grow out? That one is, it's very hard. I would say, we will probably have more failures in that area than anywhere else. Trying to recruit into it is super hard. You can get a bunch of benefit out of different angles. If you have a lot of law enforcement experience and investigative experience, that's great. But do you necessarily have the technical experience to help somebody who knows how to investigate, but doesn't know the technology to get more successful? Right?
John Hancock (01:39:58):
On the other hand, if you have a lot of technology expertise, which you don't know the domain very much, well, that's going to take you a bit of time to get, to be able to talk to those customers. Yeah, balance is what we're trying to go for. I would say the hardest role that we have at the company to scale.
Rob Collie (01:40:12):
I can imagine that. Another thing that I was wondering about throughout this is that, you're a software company. You build software, overwhelmingly, I think on the Microsoft platform?
John Hancock (01:40:21):
Yes. Entirely. One of our values is actually that we are completely Azure. We do have some little things that we're trying to get rid of. The Microsoft slow to adopt. Generally, we are pitched to people as no, if you're signing up Azure, which most government agencies are, we are an Azure, a native Azure service. We do all the Azure stuff. Other players in the market are taking the heterogeneous approach where they'll say we'll run on anything. We've gone driving very hard in the opposite direction, which turned out to be a really great bet. Microsoft Azure and government, Microsoft has done a fabulous job in getting to security-level and a level of commitment from government agencies worldwide. That has been second to none. They have won that battle. I would say I would take credit for having correctly forecasted that. I can't accept the real reason we did. It was because we're a bunch of Microsoft people, right? We just naturally built on Azure and now we just tell people it was our strategy all along.
Rob Collie (01:41:17):
Yeah. I mean, there's going to be plenty of bad luck in building a business.
John Hancock (01:41:24):
Yeah. That was a good fortune.
Rob Collie (01:41:24):
You might as well take the good luck. Yeah. You know, you can't... It's like playing blackjack and going, "Oh I lucked out and got the 21 there. I'll give that money back." No you're never going to win if you don't... You have to take the good luck and the bad luck, don't you? A lot of parallels actually sort of emerged in this conversation about Hubstream, as when we had Austin Senseman on talking about Conserv, which is their for-profit. But cultural benefit... I'm starting to sound like Borat, 'Make benefit cultural,' for museums and their collections helping preserve their collections with IOT monitoring. Some of the things you've said, he also has reflected that industry, the museum industry, if you will, if you call it an industry, is the conservatorship type people are very suspicious of for-profit businesses.
Rob Collie (01:42:14):
Probably for good reason. Maybe not in his case. If you think about Power BI, let's just talk about Power BI very specifically for a moment. If you wanted to relax it a little bit, you could talk about the Power platform as a whole. If you think of it as a BI platform, you're already kind of... not you, but we are already kind of missing the point. Really, the Power platform, Power BI is a software development platform for a particular niche. It's software development. You started Hubstream seven years ago, officially?
John Hancock (01:42:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (01:42:47):
The Power platform was way, way, way less mature. It doesn't even look the same as it looks today. It's a completely different animal now. Today there's sort of a natural progression when you're a software company aimed at a particular domain, such as crime. Whatever it is, right? Is that sooner or later, you eventually arrive at a point where almost everything you've got is custom software built for that. You're not using any of these sort of, Azure as a platform. When you start out from scratch, sometimes you end up using some of the, these sort of general purpose shortcut technology platforms. If you were starting today... First of all, let me ask you a question. Does Power BI appear... in your offering?
John Hancock (01:43:26):
Yes. Absolutely. It's actually quite an important component of it.
Rob Collie (01:43:29):
I should have asked that first.
John Hancock (01:43:30):
Yeah. Well it's for are an interesting reason. Right? Which is, so we provide this end-to-end platform. Okay. Like I say, we do everything from data ingestion all the way through to triage, investigations, referrals out, cold cases, research, trend analysis. The whole shebang. Our whole point is to be the Hub. It's right there in the name. Maybe from Microsoft are not good at naming things, but that one we named right. It's... Things stream into the Hub. That's the Hub. That's what you use it for. The role that the Power BI thing particularly plays for us is, you get this fantastic, highly tuned workflows. All these things go in your day-to-day business. At the end of the day, there's also things that, that particular organization, whether it's law enforcement or private sector or whatever, they need to have certain access to visualizations and scorecards. All these kind of things that Power BI does so fantastically.
John Hancock (01:44:23):
The way that we've kind of threaded that needle is we go, here's your end-to-end platform. What we've done to facilitate that the development of these organizations-specific, dashboards, visualizations, et cetera, is you can actually connect up to the data which will provide you in a very Power BI friendly way. You can build your Power BI reports. We've let you publish them back into the application. We've done a very interesting integration with Power BI embedded, where the Power BI dashboard that you build can show up as dashboards. You can actually make custom visuals. When I say custom visuals, I don't mean as in the Power BI custom visuals, I mean, you made a Power BI report that looks like X and you can plug it into our application UI so that if you're doing a case and for example, your investigation has tons of IP history, well there you can have a tile that launches your custom Power BI report that does that kind of analysis that you need to do.
John Hancock (01:45:17):
That's how we've kind of layered in what Power BI does brilliantly, which is the ability for normal humans, as you say, with some Power BI experience, to hook up to data and do specifically the thing need to do. They can still publish that back into the end-to-end platform. That's been a... It was a great bet on our part. Power BI embedded, was a bit rocky at the beginning, but I have to give kudos to that team. They've done a really good job over time of making that into a world-class grade, embeddable solution. Into our actual application.
John Hancock (01:45:47):
It's part of the thing we sell, which is we go out there and people say, "Oh, what if I need to do this?" And we say, "Well, do you know, Power BI?" And they go, "Of course we know Power BI. It's completely ubiquitous. It's everywhere." So then we tell them, "Okay, well take those Power BI reports and put them into your end-to-end workflow. Hook them up to the centralized hub of all your information coming in. Voila. Now you have all the value of Power BI." You have that put into people's day-to-day workflow, as opposed to just being some separate thing that you go and query.
Rob Collie (01:46:14):
If you're listening to this and you're involved in any sort of line-of-business software. I mean, I... Okay. It's, almost cheapening to call what you do, line-of-business.
John Hancock (01:46:23):
It's totally line-of-business. That's exactly right. It is the day-to-day system that people use. It's just that what they use it for is, novel and unique. You've got to think about it as, that is the system. That's the line-of-business system. They use that eight hours a day, 10, 12 hours a day. Many of them, that's what they use. When you think about that process, I agree. Line-of-business systems. If you think about the need to also serve their requirements for custom ways to understand their information, you don't go build that kind of stuff yourself, because Power BI has gone rocketing way beyond anything you would do yourself.
John Hancock (01:46:59):
The value is that someone can get a Power BI Desktop. It's actually, like I say, normal humans can use this thing. They can create basically a mini application, as you said, Rob. It's really their domain specific programming effectively. Then you can push that back into your Hubstream platform. Now it's part of your day-to-day. It's part of your line-of-business system. That's the approach we started taking a couple of years ago, once Power BI embedded really got going. That was a really good move. I think it's worked out so great for us and the clients.
Rob Collie (01:47:27):
You completed my sentence. Exactly. You know exactly where I was headed. Don't be that line-of-business offer company that thinks you're going to build the reporting. Unless, you know that your customers all need basically the same, exact stuff. Sometimes that's the way that your industry works.
John Hancock (01:47:42):
Yeah. Like consumer or these large scale companies, where you're solving a specific problem in a specific way. Line-of-business systems, in the modern era, whether you're doing Salesforce or Dynamics or whatever it is. Whatever's in front of the person, I look around and I see tons of these Vertical SaaS companies, just like mine. Vertical SaaS thing is this huge phenomenon out there for good reason, right? You have some team of people who understands a particular Vertical really well. They can assemble a team that can execute really quickly. They can pull together all these Azure cognitive services and Power BI and they put everything together and pretty quickly they can come up with a solution, which is highly tuned to that Vertical. So the trick in that world is not to develop things you don't need to develop. If you're building things you don't need to develop. If you think you're going to go and crack open D3 and do a better job of ad hoc development of custom visualizations. Good luck to you. It's not going to work.
Rob Collie (01:48:35):
If I can just edge just a little bit commercial for a moment. By the way, if you happen to be working on a vertical-specific, line-of-business system, P3 would love to help you avoid that mistake, right? We would love to help you integrate Power BI into your offering and offer an actual winning capability for your customers without you spending... It's just crazy. You can spend so much time and money trying to build reporting that works for all of your customers. Just a sinkhole of money and ,never come close to succeeding.
John Hancock (01:49:06):
That's exactly right. I completely agree. Now the thing is, luckily in our case, we did have that background, in-house, in the company. Since we helped build, as you said, the beating heart of Power BI. We were back there, back in the day and through some of the iterations. We had the experience to just go crack it open and go do it. I do think that anyone is building a Vertical SaaS product, should look at that as an option in their model. Wow, it makes a huge difference. You're never going to get to the point when you can hand over something like Power BI Desktop to your business analyst or whoever, whatever analytic type shows up in your, in your Vertical SaaS world, is somebody who can crack open some kind of tool like that. If you're going to go build a designer from scratch, you're crazy in this era.
Rob Collie (01:49:46):
My last question, what's next for Hubstream? What's the next big frontier, the white whale that you're chasing? What's the stretch goal?
John Hancock (01:49:53):
Stretch goal for us is that we have been doing this long enough to know what is going to unlock the next level for us. We know that we're doing fantastically well for big, national and global organizations. If you look at our customers today, it's all the big names that you would recognize. If you go do a search on government procurement sites, you'll see who we're working with. It's all the big ones that you would imagine. Particularly the, what they call the Five Eyes countries, New Zealand and Australia, Canada, the US and the UK. That's where we are, right? Doing a fantastic job on those big agencies. But like I said, the world is full of so smaller organizations, right? They're not going to go and stand up and do an implementation of this big line-of-business system, if you're a local police department or a small brand that's just coming up, or a company that's starting to see fraud in their transactions.
John Hancock (01:50:45):
None of these people are going to go and say, "Right, we need to reorganize our whole entire universe around this hub". We are working and have been doing for a number of years now on the next generation of our technology, which we'll be launching later this year. You can invite me back to talk about it at that point. It's...
Rob Collie (01:51:00):
I would love to.
John Hancock (01:51:01):
Yeah, this is our V4. In the history of software, V4 is when you really start to get your game on, right? You do V1. It's limited. You do V2, which is disaster. Always. All V2's are disasters. V3, you stabilize all the mistakes you made in V2, and you realize what you're actually going to go do when you grow up and V4 is our grown up version. We're hoping to take all of those lessons, all of the scale, all of the way that people work and make it available to a much larger audience. Anybody who is touching criminal investigations or investigations at any scale, weighed all the way down to a single human, we have something fantastic and mind blowing that's coming. That the team has been working their butts off. We triple the size of the team in the last two years to go build that. That's the white whale we're chasing as you correctly discerned. We are after something here and that's it. So stay tuned.
Rob Collie (01:51:51):
Indeed. We're going to simultaneously release the comic book...Dr. Data.
John Hancock (01:51:56):
Great. Fantastic.
Rob Collie (01:51:59):
M. Knight Shyamalan is already on board for the movie.
John Hancock (01:52:01):
That's great. Like I said, John Oliver can play me. So that's good.
Rob Collie (01:52:04):
Yeah. Totally. John, this has been a blast. Always loved the podcast excuse to reconnect people that I knew 10 years ago. It's so great.
John Hancock (01:52:19):
Yeah. It's been tons of fun.
Announcer (01:52:20):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P L-U-K-E-P at powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Bill Jelen, known to many as Mr. Excel, was one of the first Internet Tech Celebrities. He turned his online resume into a highly recognizable brand and is a legend in the data community. We get his story, in his own words. We hope you'll enjoy this candid conversation with Mr. Excel, Bill Jelen Buy Bill's book Mr.Excel 2021: Unmasking Excel, containing his favorite Excel tips! Stuff We Mentioned: Hipster Ipsum Copy Filler Tool Dax Studio We Report Space-Bill's Other Website! Rob's Wheel Of Inquisition Episode Timeline: * 3:15 - Mr. Excel's Origin Story * 18:05 - The Excel vs Power BI user base * 35:35 - Dax is Badass! * 47:25 - Lambda Functions in Excel, Mr. Excel asks some Python questions, and Rob gets cynical * 1:16:50 - Bill's other passion We Report Space and the story of Tickling Keys * 1:28:30 - More on Lambda functions and Let functions and the immense potential there
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends. This week, we have the one and only Mr. Excel himself, Bill Jelen. Chances are, if you're listening to this, you have been to Bill's site, mrexcel.com via search engine more times than you can count. You might have read some of his books because he is factually the most prolific author of Excel books in history. One of the things that I find most fascinating about Bill is that every technical community, these days, is a community. We're familiar with the idea of, essentially, celebrities, MVPs, community figures, advocates, internet stars.
Rob Collie (00:00:35):
And Bill was doing that long before that was a thing. He was doing this in the 1990s. When websites still looked like the old Windows help files. He might have been the only person that I'm aware of doing this thing that early. He's absolutely a fixture in the data community as far as I'm concerned. And just also a phenomenal person. He's been a really good friend of mine for a number of years. We'll sometimes talk early in the morning when I'm still up and he is already up. We had a great time, wandered all over the place as you'd expect. I hope you enjoy it. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:13):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:17):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast. With your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro. com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:35):
Welcome to the show, Bill Jelen.
Bill Jelen (00:01:38):
It is great to be here. Holy smokes.
Rob Collie (00:01:41):
How you doing today, man?
Bill Jelen (00:01:42):
It is a beautiful day down here in sunny Florida. 73 degrees.
Rob Collie (00:01:47):
It sounds awesome. A little sort of Oceanside experience for you. We have freezing rain today.
Bill Jelen (00:01:54):
That's special. Freezing rain. That's that Indianapolis thing. A little bit further south from Cleveland, the snow changes to freezing rain.
Rob Collie (00:02:02):
Yeah. I highly recommend it.
Bill Jelen (00:02:03):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:04):
I don't even know what freezing rain was when I ... I didn't know it was a thing when I lived in Florida.
Bill Jelen (00:02:10):
Great.
Rob Collie (00:02:10):
Oh, it's just wonderful. The things that ... What was it, the Jimmy Buffett Changes in Latitudes?
Bill Jelen (00:02:16):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:02:16):
That brings you freezing rain. I think he might have been referring to going South.
Bill Jelen (00:02:22):
Yeah. It's something else.
Rob Collie (00:02:22):
With a latitude change, it might have been-
Bill Jelen (00:02:24):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:24):
So Mr. Excel, you might be, if not the first, one of the sort of original, the OG internet tech celebrity figures. Everyone's trying for that today. That's a thing today. That's the lifestyle. A whole generation is attempting that right now.
Bill Jelen (00:02:44):
Right, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:45):
But you, I mean, you were doing this long before it was cool.
Bill Jelen (00:02:49):
It was easier when there was no competition.
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
Well, I-
Bill Jelen (00:02:52):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:52):
I agree.
Bill Jelen (00:02:53):
Yeah, right.
Rob Collie (00:02:54):
But at the same time, there's a reason why there was no competition. Because no one else thought to do it, or had the energy to do it, or thought that there was ROI. So in some sense, it was harder to start early, right? It was harder to be one of the early people otherwise there would've been more. But yeah, once you're going, it's different. So let's go back to the origin story. The Marvel comic book, or DC, if you prefer-
Bill Jelen (00:03:18):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:03:19):
Origin story of Mr. Excel. You were not always Mr. Excel. You were once just Bill Jelen.
Bill Jelen (00:03:25):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:03:26):
Where does it all begin?
Bill Jelen (00:03:28):
And the nasty secret is that I was originally Mr. Lotus 1-2-3.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:32):
Oh.
Rob Collie (00:03:32):
Oh my God.
Bill Jelen (00:03:33):
Yeah, it wasn't until 1995, when the company I was working for switched over from Lotus to Excel. And then Mr. Excel started in November of 98. So I only had three years of Excel under my belt. Before that-
Rob Collie (00:03:44):
Whoa, you were three years in before you became Mr.
Bill Jelen (00:03:48):
Mr. That's right. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:50):
So were you literally Mr. Lotus 1-2-3? Did you call yourself that at one time?
Bill Jelen (00:03:55):
No, the whole thing is, I was the guy at the company. There's one of these at every company who knows everything about spreadsheets. Originally Lotus, and then Excel. And it wasn't because I was a spreadsheet geek. It was because we had a miserable tool. They paid $100,000 for a reporting package that did not work. But thank God it had the most important button in the world, export to spreadsheet. Yeah, right? And so then there ... I'm supposed to be using this $100,000 tool, but I'm back in a cube in the back of the finance department. We're using Lotus 1-2-3 to turn everything around. Right?
Rob Collie (00:04:31):
We think of that button now as, export to Excel. Did they have the foresight in the Lotus 1-2-3 days to call it export to Excel? Was it already called export to Excel, because they knew sort of where it was going?
Bill Jelen (00:04:41):
No. I'm going to geek out here. It wasn't even an exported .WK1. It was a .WKS. A Lotus 1-2-3 version 1 file, which was limited 2084 records, or some crazy low number like that. Yeah. So the first thing we do was convert that to proper WK1 file with a 16,384 records. Woo!
Rob Collie (00:05:02):
Get out of here.
Bill Jelen (00:05:03):
Yeah, right. How would you ever fill that up?
Rob Collie (00:05:07):
That's too many.
Bill Jelen (00:05:07):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:11):
Yeah. That's great. So I've heard this story before, by the way. This expensive reporting package that doesn't do what you want it to do. But usually there's more zeros on the price tag. 100,000. That's-
Bill Jelen (00:05:26):
Yeah, that was 1990. I don't know. That was 1995, 1996 dollars. So-
Rob Collie (00:05:28):
Oh, so in today's dollars it'd be like a million?
Bill Jelen (00:05:31):
Probably. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:32):
Yeah. Great. Was that really sort of the origin of your spreadsheet engagement?
Bill Jelen (00:05:38):
That's how I became really, really good at spreadsheets. Just using this $100,000 tool and then secretly a $99 spreadsheet to produce everything. So that trial by fire taught me a lot.
Rob Collie (00:05:49):
I'd always thought that, and I've known you a long time now, I'd always thought that you were just sort of in the accounting world. And of course you use spreadsheets in the accounting world and you got good at it. But to hear you tell the story ... Seriously for me this is, I think, the first time I've heard this, that this really started out for you, the primary driver anyway, was a need for reporting a BI need essentially.
Bill Jelen (00:06:13):
Essentially. Yeah, that's right. And it was ad hoc. I mean, we were never running the same report. It was always ad hoc, which I loved. I loved ad hoc. I loved every day. You'd show up to work and see what fire is burning and what fire you could put out by being the guy who could get the data from the mainframe into, well, spreadsheet.
Rob Collie (00:06:31):
We have a name for that kind of workflow in the industry. At least at P3 we have a name for it. What fire's burning every day, the different questions every day, the things that twists and turns and all that, we call that reality.
Bill Jelen (00:06:45):
That's a great name.
Rob Collie (00:06:47):
You like that? I mean, that's just life. That's just how the world works. That's really, really cool. Seriously, I did not expect, at least this early in the conversation, to be learning something new about the Bill.
Bill Jelen (00:06:59):
Right. That was it. So I'd been at this company for 10 years and I'm the first generation, I think, that you didn't go someplace and work for your whole life. My dad showed up at a place and worked there for 35 years until retired. And so this place I was working at, they fired people every Friday. HR coming towards your office with a box. It's like, "Ur"
Rob Collie (00:07:19):
It's just part of the ritual.
Bill Jelen (00:07:22):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:23):
It's like Stalin. It just goes down the row of officers and just shoots every 10th one.
Bill Jelen (00:07:26):
Right. Right. And you were just hoping that you were not the one that would be let go that Friday. And then they announced. They called everyone out to the parking lot. They made a big announcement that there was a hostile takeover bid. And our hated competitor, our dreaded competitor, was trying to buy us out. But don't worry, we're going to find a white night. We'll find someone else to buy us. Because we hate those guys. And I'm like, "Oh man, this is bad. I'm going to have to go look for a job." I haven't interviewed in 10 years. I don't even have a resume. So in my twisted mind, it was the Friday for Thanksgiving in 1998, I launched Mr Excel. I said, "Send me your Excel questions." And the website said, "I'll write up the best one every week here on the website."
Bill Jelen (00:08:08):
And the best ones will show up in a book. But what I was secretly thinking was if I could get 50 people to send me Excel questions, then when I lost my job in a couple of months after the hostile takeover, I would have 50 places to send a resume. I mean, anyone who sent an Excel question in, clearly was using Excel. So-
Rob Collie (00:08:24):
That's right.
Bill Jelen (00:08:25):
It was a job. It was a job hunt. But then they backed out of the deal. They didn't buy us. They didn't buy us. So now, all of a sudden, I got people sending me Excel questions every day. What am I going to do with this? So that's how it started.
Rob Collie (00:08:38):
Oh my God. I love that. So that's why I started Power Proof at pro.com originally. Was like an online resume in a way, and had no idea. I mean, I kind of had an idea, but it was a squishy motivation. I love how the accidental things like this-
Bill Jelen (00:08:53):
Yeah, absolutely. Right.
Rob Collie (00:08:54):
Yeah I know.
Bill Jelen (00:08:54):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:08:55):
It didn't even turn out to be real. The takeover wasn't even real.
Bill Jelen (00:08:58):
They did come back and get us two years later. And that actually is really lucky, because in those two years ... They say the way to build traffic, you can either buy your way or ... It takes time or money. Either buy ads or just slowly grow organically. And those two years give us a lot of time to grow organically. And then when it came time that they offered us a buyout, I said, "All right. Well, I got six months' severance package here. Let me see what I can do. Let's just hang a shingle out to see if I can get Excel consulting gigs." And I had to wake up and hope that something would come in. There was only one day that nothing came in. So yeah, by the end of the six months, it was a go.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:31):
See that part has always fascinated me. The fact that, until I met Rob, I had no idea anyone could make a living as an Excel consultant.
Bill Jelen (00:09:42):
It's amazing. It's amazing. And it certainly requires some VBA. Back then you had to do some VBA. And they were tiny little VBA jobs, like 250 bucks or something like that. But you string enough of those together and you're replacing the old corporate salary. So yeah, it was good.
Rob Collie (00:09:59):
So When did the book start?
Bill Jelen (00:10:01):
The book. Okay. Here's the worst part about working from home. First off, the cafeteria at home is last night's dinner, right? Whatever's left over from last night's dinner. There's no choice whatsoever. And I missed not having anyone to talk to. There was no one to talk about last night's game, no one to go golfing with, no softball teams in the summer. There's nothing. And so I started joining the Chamber of Commerce, just to have someone to go talk to. You could go out to breakfast once a month at the networking thing. And this is so weird. There was an event called ... It was the Women's Network. I don't qualify for that, but they said, "It's okay, come on anyway."
Bill Jelen (00:10:41):
So I would go to the Women's Network thing and there was a lady there who did a presentation and she says, "Yeah, I'm a marketing consultant. I just got started. I want to triple someone's business." And I went up to her afterwards. I said, "Well hey, things are going really good. I'm satisfied with where we're at. But yeah, if you want to triple my business, let's do it." So I explained the business model. I said, "I got all these people coming. They post their questions at the message board. 99% of them get their answer for free. And that's it. They never come back. And I'm counting on one out of a hundred to actually hire me and pay me 250 bucks." And she's like, "Wait a second. You're either charging people $250 or zero?"
Bill Jelen (00:11:20):
I'm like, "Yes." And she says, "You're missing an important price point. You need a $20 product. If people love you, if you had a $20 product, they would be handing $20 over to you handed fist." So I wrote the first book. The print run. Rob, what was our last print run? Our last print run was thousands, Right?
Rob Collie (00:11:38):
Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:11:38):
It was just some crazy number. My first print run, on Whipple avenue in Canton, Ohio, at the office, Max Printing store, was 10. I printed 10. Cost $10 each. I sold them for 20. Cool 100 bucks right there.
Rob Collie (00:11:53):
Humble beginnings.
Bill Jelen (00:11:54):
I took that profit, I printed another 10. And eventually the day I got to print a hundred, it was like, "Woo! Wow, moving up."
Rob Collie (00:12:02):
You were self-published from the beginning.
Bill Jelen (00:12:06):
From the Beginning. That's right. Because I hated rejection. I didn't want to go to the publishers. So I just printed, myself. And then once I started getting five star reviews, and then the publishers came to me. And great news, even at Taylor, the marketing consultant, she wanted to triple someone's business. Within 18 months, the book sales had outpaced consulting 5 to 1. And I said, "Oh, look at this." I just write a book once and sell it for 20 bucks.
Bill Jelen (00:12:29):
I don't have to worry about writing VBA for someone. And the VBA always worked until that person left. And then the new person who took over the job. Yeah. Like, "Hey, your program doesn't work." "What do you mean my program doesn't work? It worked fine for six months. Where's Shelly?" "Oh, she's not here anymore." "When did it stop working?" "Right when she left." I was like, "Ur." And just having to deal with that ongoing tech support was no fun. No fun at all. And the great thing about a book, I've hardly had anyone ever call and say, " Bill, the book won't open." There's just ... That never comes up. That never comes up.
Rob Collie (00:13:08):
Yesterday, there were words on the page. Today, there's no words.
Bill Jelen (00:13:11):
Right. Yeah. I had a back cover that got scratched once. So I had to replace the book for that. But it's very, very low probability for bugs to pop up once the book is out.
Rob Collie (00:13:22):
Yeah. Not a lot of support calls.
Bill Jelen (00:13:24):
No.
Rob Collie (00:13:24):
For a book that ... huh.
Bill Jelen (00:13:26):
And I'm going to whisper this part. I'm not sure I want anyone to know this. I've always said, if you have a great cover and about 10 pages of content, 90% of the people will be happy with that. Because they never actually read the book. They buy the book and they put it on their shelf. So if you just have enough stuff at the front, and then you could just put 190 pages of white space, most people wouldn't complain at all.
Rob Collie (00:13:44):
Yeah. I think Salvador Dolly, or one of those artists said something similar back in the day, which was like, "Once you've made a name for yourself, once you've established it, after that, it's all just production. Just churn it out. People will buy anything. Once you've started, you just slap some paint on the canvas. And its more important to get quantity than quality." Really cynical, but you kind of get the sense he was speaking from truth. Wasn't he?
Bill Jelen (00:14:09):
So now, just in the last 30 seconds, I've hatched this grand scheme that I'm going to get a word cloud of all the Excel terms and then use some huge TEXTJOIN function in Excel and just start generating content automatically. Random. Use ram between in the word cloud, and frequency distribution. I bet I can just start, yeah, knocking out.
Rob Collie (00:14:29):
Have You seen the HipsterIpsum site?
Bill Jelen (00:14:31):
No.
Rob Collie (00:14:32):
So you know about Lorem Ipsum, right?
Bill Jelen (00:14:34):
Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:35):
Fake Latin text that you fill in on a design, like a webpage, before you're ready to write the actual copy. Well, there's a website, it's HipsterIpsum. and it is so funny. It's like, I'm for loco, farmed a table, sustainable.
Bill Jelen (00:14:53):
That's it. That's it. I just need to hack their website and put my Excel terms in instead.
Rob Collie (00:14:57):
Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:14:57):
And we're good to go.
Rob Collie (00:14:59):
SpreadsheetIpsum. Or GridsterIpsum.
Bill Jelen (00:15:01):
GridsterIpsum.
Rob Collie (00:15:02):
Something like that. I'm VLOOKUP cross reference relative name range.
Bill Jelen (00:15:09):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:10):
It's like you're trying to give yourself a rapper name.
Bill Jelen (00:15:12):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:15:12):
Yeah. It is. And a really bad one at that.
Thomas LaRock (00:15:14):
VLOOKUP.
Rob Collie (00:15:17):
Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:15:18):
There was a service, I don't know, 15 years ago, that you could put a website in and it would translate it to Snoop Dogg. You could send that link ... I said, "Hey, I rewrote my website. What do you think?" You're not serious. Are you?
Rob Collie (00:15:32):
All right. So you started essentially in BI. Excel is, even today, the BI tool of choice for the entire world. I think Power BI is slowly colonizing that space. And this is sort of the core of what our business does. So at some point though, it seems like you became not ... Once you went sort of solo, the majority of the work you were doing for people and the topics covered in your books and everything, doesn't have that same heavy analytical slant. I mean, there's still some of that for sure. You've written books 100% on Pivot Tables for instance, but you've become a lot more, I think, general purpose in your focus over the years. Would you agree with that?
Bill Jelen (00:16:15):
And that's because of the questions that are coming in. At this point, the next YouTube video is just going to be the last good question that came in, whatever it happens to be. That certainly goes from taking massive amounts of data down to a one-page summer report to whatever crazy problem someone's having today.
Rob Collie (00:16:32):
Yeah. There's a lot of that, especially in the early blogging days, right? Right now I'm scrolling to see if there's a function in Excel that starts with MC, MC something. Oh, there's only MD. Nope. There's no MC Excel function. We're going to have to keep looking for our rapper name. If we ever assembled the brain trust to pick the Excel rapper name, this is it. This is the chamber where that happens.
Bill Jelen (00:16:53):
Sometimes in Excel, you'll use our rapper function. On the video, have a little call out there of some famous rapper. And it's like, not this. This.
Rob Collie (00:17:01):
Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:17:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:17:05):
So we are, tangentially anyway, this podcast is usually ... It ties back to Power BI somehow. You haven't really had to make that shift. You have been. I've seen you. You've been dabbling, especially on the Excel side, like the Power Pivot and especially the Power Query side. You've been dipping your toe into those pools. But some of the Excel crowd of yesterday have sort of fully migrated. They now identify as Power BI people.
Bill Jelen (00:17:34):
I can tell that from book sales. If you go out to Nielsen and look at book sales, the Power BI books are just outselling Excel books by a huge margin.
Rob Collie (00:17:44):
Really?
Bill Jelen (00:17:44):
Right. And I-
Rob Collie (00:17:44):
Across the board.
Bill Jelen (00:17:46):
That doesn't mean that there's more Power BI people than Excel people. It's the Excel people already know what they're doing. And the Power BI people, the people who are migrating to Power BI, they're the ones who need help. If you've been using Excel for 20 years, you don't need another Excel book. But the people who are just switching to Power BI ... When you said it's slowly moving, I think it's ... Whatever that rate is, that rate is increasing. That's a great thing.
Rob Collie (00:18:06):
There's also more leverage on Power BI skill than on Excel skill. It's not to say that Excel skill is less valuable, because even I today, I'm constantly throwing together spreadsheets because there's no substitute for a blank canvas that you can compose in any way. And for example, if you want to build yourself a wheel of fortune type app that picks a random person that is then forced to ask a question of you on the spot in a team meeting, there's only one go-to, and that's Excel.
Bill Jelen (00:18:35):
You're definitely not going to go to Word or PowerPoint for that.
Rob Collie (00:18:37):
They're not Power BI either, as it turns out. But in terms of institutional impact, a single person effectively applying Power BI can be worth millions of dollars to the bottom line annually. It's crazy, right? A single person applying Excel isn't going to have that kind of leverage. You kind of need a whole culture of people applying Excel simultaneously. You don't get this one to many with that kind of impact, typically. I mean, except for the famous stories where someone messed up a spreadsheet, right? In which case you can subtract. You can subtract millions of dollars from the bottom line in an eye blink if you want. So I think there's, in essence, sort of a higher premium on Power BI learning. I guess what I'm really saying is, is that it's not just the people who know Excel and there's all that. People are more willing to pay for Power BI expertise than they are willing to pay for Excel expertise. At the same time though, there's still many, many times more people who are interested in acquiring Excel expertise even today, relative to Power BI.
Bill Jelen (00:19:43):
Do you think that there'll ever become a tipping point where the Power BI user base is more than the Excel user base, or will it always be-
Rob Collie (00:19:51):
No.
Bill Jelen (00:19:52):
Is there some limit? And you're 40%
Rob Collie (00:19:54):
I think there's definitely a limit. For the same reason as that leverage, right? You just don't need as many people in an organization slinging Power BI. You need more people in your organization than what IT can provide, but less than what you need from Excel. So It's somewhere in between there. So I think maybe the Power BI audience might be 10 to 30% the size of the Excel audience at equilibrium. That's just me pulling a number, but that's a gut feeling that I've got.
Bill Jelen (00:20:24):
That's still a ... That's going to be a massive number though.
Rob Collie (00:20:26):
Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:20:26):
Right? So-
Rob Collie (00:20:27):
If you think of another way it's, take the fraction of Excel usage that is making sense of reports. That's that same origin you had back in the 90s of exporting from one size fits all reporting systems, but we answered no questions. The Excel as BI backstop is a significant percentage of Excel's total usage. It's double digit percentage. It's 10 to 30%, right? That's the space that Power BI is on its way to colonizing. But I still think that's early. I still think it's early. In fact, I would predict that the sales of Power BI books, the sales rate of them is still ... We have not yet seen its peak.
Bill Jelen (00:21:09):
I would definitely agree with that. And my anecdotal evidence for that is just the number of Excel people that I run into. So up until this year, I was on the road, right? Doing Excel seminars. And so you'd show up in a city and you'd have 100 people from around the city show up, who were all working in accounting. There to get their continued education hours. I would always try engage. When I got to the Power Query point of the day, show of hands, how many of you have used or heard of Power Query? And it was early on, it'd be one or two out of 100. And even at the end, it was 10 or 12 out of 100. So the number of people who still have no clue that Power Query is there ... And for me, power query is the gateway.
Bill Jelen (00:21:54):
Once you realize that Power Query is there, then you take that Power Query knowledge and move over to Power BI. Because now you can take that data, and instead of spending an hour to clean it, you'd spend 10 minutes on day one and then zero minutes, just click refresh, on day two through day 50,000. Once you learn that you can do that, then to me, the natural next step is, do that with really cool visuals on top.
Rob Collie (00:22:18):
Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:22:18):
Through Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:22:19):
We're trying to track down one of the originators of Power Query. One of the shadowy figures behind the scenes at Microsoft and get them on the show. Stay tuned. Fingers crossed. We're hot on the trail.
Bill Jelen (00:22:32):
I would love to be a fly on the wall for that. With a really large megaphone, Right? And just-
Rob Collie (00:22:37):
That's a fly.
Bill Jelen (00:22:38):
To shake them and say, "How did you manage to get this product in Excel with no one realizing that it's there?" Excel 2013, it was an add-in. And then Excel 2016, they moved it to the data tab. But if you look at the group, the Get and Transform group, and the group that it replaced, if you're not looking at them side by side, you would swear it's the same thing. Right? So if someone comes along, they look at the data tab, oh, this looks like just what we used to have.
Rob Collie (00:23:05):
Yeah. The Power Query team didn't achieve that. Don't worry. The Excel team takes care of hiding it.
Bill Jelen (00:23:10):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:23:10):
And that is actually a really tough challenge. Dave Gainer, my old mentor, who was my boss when I was on Excel, he's not here to defend himself. So let's pick on him. He had this thing. I'm not really picking on him. I think he's right. And this is the challenge. I would always want to introduce things into Excel that looked different, kind of stood out, that were their own thing, that did something. It was almost like self advertising in its difference.
Bill Jelen (00:23:33):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:23:34):
And he was always macking me around saying, "No, we're custodians of this product. And we are not going to turn it into some tourist trap of garish signs all up and down the road." Little hole in the wall, firework stands and all these one off things, right?
Rob Collie (00:23:49):
Those things have a cumulative cost to the product that really adds up. And so you get this legitimate and well intentioned, integrative, holistic philosophy as a side effect of that. You can't tell that anything is new. The things that should be screaming at you, for example, the 2013 awful, awful aberration that we all are pledged to never talk about, but we're going to talk about. When they renamed measures in Power Pivot to be calculated fields for an eye blink in time, right? And you and I know that calculated fields were an existing feature of Pivot Tables and they weren't very good. They were like less than 1% as interesting and powerful as measures.
Rob Collie (00:24:34):
I mean, I can't even put it on a numerical scale. It's thousands of times less powerful, thousands of times less relevant. But out of consistency, oh, we'll just call it calculated fields. It's the new calculated fields. But when that ends up happening is, you give it the same name as the boring old crappy thing that everyone always hated. And now why would I ever click that button? Instead, that button should be glowing. Three dimensional, jumping out of the screen and grabbing you by the nose saying, "I am the best thing ever. Click me." But if you've got 40 things in Excel saying.
Rob Collie (00:25:03):
Click me. But, if you've got 40 things in Excel saying that, what is it on the Incredibles? "When everybody's special, nobody will be"
Bill Jelen (00:25:12):
No, I've always said there should be a red neon arrow pointing at certain features, and that certainly is one.
Rob Collie (00:25:19):
I've got an idea. It'll be almost like the Amazon rating system. User enthusiasm for features. Data driven, light up. So now it's first of all, it's factual. The market's deciding.
Bill Jelen (00:25:35):
That's beautiful.
Rob Collie (00:25:36):
And you can turn it on and off, and-
Bill Jelen (00:25:39):
No, no, no.
Rob Collie (00:25:40):
..Right there. Microsoft, I hope you're not listening because I just gave one of my best ideas ever to you for free when really you could be paying me large amounts of money every year to generate two ideas like this per year.
Bill Jelen (00:25:52):
It sounds beautiful. But I just followed it through through its logical conclusion. And what we would have in an Excel user interface is a button that consumed 98% of the space with Autosum, just based on what the users use that's, Would, The whole home tab would just be Autosum. That would be it there'd be nothing else.
Rob Collie (00:26:10):
You're saying this would drive us to the bottom, this would drive us to lowest common denominator?
Bill Jelen (00:26:15):
It would have to be user usage of the people I like, I would get to nominate the 100 people that actually control what gets on there.
Rob Collie (00:26:23):
I like it, a curated, an MVP curated system?
Bill Jelen (00:26:28):
Just my friends.
Rob Collie (00:26:29):
Do we want Ken in charge of that?
Bill Jelen (00:26:31):
Everything would Be shouted then.
Rob Collie (00:26:34):
Very intelligently though. Like the most intelligent, booming voice ever met, We need to get Ken on here too. Don't we?
Bill Jelen (00:26:41):
You do need to get Ken on here.
Rob Collie (00:26:42):
All right Ken, we're coming for you. Hey Tom, I'll tell you an interesting... If we're going to keep wandering whatever we want do. I'm going to tell you an interesting detail about our business relationship with Bill. So it's a fact that in terms of retail dollars, our book deal between P3 and Bill has done millions and millions of dollars in retail sales. It's a cool thing to say. Right? I don't think it's eight figures, but I think we're somewhere in the seven figures of retail sales.
Bill Jelen (00:27:13):
Retail sales. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:27:15):
And we've never had a contract.
Bill Jelen (00:27:18):
It's a handshake.
Rob Collie (00:27:19):
Yeah. I don't think we even shook hands. I think we were you know, Email. It was a distant handshake.
Bill Jelen (00:27:25):
I think at one point you said, just in case something happens, we should write all this down. And I said, oh yeah. And then we never did. And that was like four or five years in.
Rob Collie (00:27:34):
It's just like that voice that comes into your back of your head like, oh come on, we're really being irresponsible. But then the short term incentives, they straighten you right out, we were never going to Sue each other.
Bill Jelen (00:27:46):
Your book is the best selling computer book that I've ever seen by far here. Of all the books I've I published, you've outsold every book.
Rob Collie (00:27:53):
It was a good handshake.
Bill Jelen (00:27:54):
It'd be interesting to go out and find the best selling computer book, something back from the day and see if you've eclipsed that.
Rob Collie (00:28:02):
I'll tell you what let's do that offline. And if the results look good for us, we'll circle back. If, they don't look good. We just won't bring it up again.
Bill Jelen (00:28:14):
Let us just cut this part [inaudible 00:28:14]
Thomas LaRock (00:28:14):
I don't know why you don't just say how good they are.
Rob Collie (00:28:16):
We just bluff it. It's optimistic. We'll say it now on the podcast. And then if it turns out to not be true, then we'll cut it.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:21):
If you say it enough times, it becomes true. Isn't that the lesson that we've learned?
Bill Jelen (00:28:25):
What a horrible lesson it is, but yes.[crosstalk 00:03:27]
Rob Collie (00:28:29):
My book is more popular than the Bible.
Bill Jelen (00:28:32):
Rob's book has sold more copies than the DaVinci code...For example.
Rob Collie (00:28:39):
In parentheses, for Excel.
Bill Jelen (00:28:42):
You know, that would be another great book. The DaVinci code for Excel. And that's the one where you only need 10 pages of content and 90, 190 pages of Blank stuff.
Rob Collie (00:28:49):
And 90% of the production cost is just licensing a picture of Tom Hanks for the cover. Right?
Bill Jelen (00:28:54):
That's it. And most of the sales will be people who accidentally, they were trying to buy the real DaVinci code and they bought us instead.
Rob Collie (00:29:00):
Tom's sitting down at a computer with a spreadsheet on it and he's asking the photographer, why are we doing this photo shoot? What is it again? He's like, "don't worry about it you're getting paid".
Thomas LaRock (00:29:10):
So how'd you two meet? We haven't talked about that yet.
Bill Jelen (00:29:13):
Cleveland, Ohio,
Thomas LaRock (00:29:15):
You have this incredible non-handshake deal, but what's the origin story for the two of you?
Bill Jelen (00:29:21):
It was Cleveland Ohio. When David gainer was in charge of the Excel team, I got a note from David. I'm living in Akron, Ohio. He says, one of my guys is relocating to Cleveland, Ohio. You two should go to lunch. Know what I got from Dave gainer? I reached out to Rob and I went up to Cleveland and had lunch. And it was the best conversation I think I've ever had because I, sitting in Akron, Ohio have hatched all sorts of conspiracy theories. I was the Qanon of Excel. You guys on the Excel team, you did this because. And then Rob would say, well, you know the story there is, and then he would give me some boring story about why it made sense to do that. And I hated that because my story was so far, much better. My made up conspiracy theory was better than yours, but it was just great to have someone who was almost equally as frustrated with things as I was, You could tell me the backstory behind it.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:23):
Does knowing the backstory, did that make things better for you?
Bill Jelen (00:30:27):
It made me less angry I think. Sometimes.
Rob Collie (00:30:30):
So many mundane reasons for things, right? Just normal big company, hands are tied type of stuff. It's just, On one hand it's reassuring because it's not nefarious. We weren't hiding in the basement of a pizza parlor in Washington, DC, but at the same time, it's kind of depressing in a way, because those sorts of forces are durable. If they were acting yesterday to do things we don't like, they're going to be acting tomorrow to do the same things. Like you'd almost prefer it to be some sort of one off, twisted thing, because tomorrow's going to be different. But when the causes for things are corporate, well corporate's not going anywhere. And we see it over and over again.
Bill Jelen (00:31:13):
The other thing I've realized is you cannot be angry when a version one feature doesn't do what you want because at any other company, they wouldn't have put it out. They would wait until they had version five and then put the finished thing out. But Microsoft, especially in Excel, they'll put something out just to kind of get the feedback and they'll send it to the insiders fast, and so it's going to some small percentage and they'll react. People will say, Hey, this would be better for you, do this. And they're not afraid to change things. So it used to be like, that's so stupid, That new feature. And now I'm just like, hang on it'll come around, this five years from now this will be the greatest thing ever. But right now, this is what they have done. And they're letting us play with this part. So.
Rob Collie (00:31:53):
Let's go back to the origin story of us meeting from [inaudible 00:31:55] I think the statute of limitations is the now expired on us needing to keep this secret. So you were writing about the time that we had lunch that first time you were writing a Power Pivot book, you had one in the works.
Bill Jelen (00:32:08):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:32:10):
It wasn't called Power Pivot yet the name hadn't been released,
Thomas LaRock (00:32:13):
was it still Gemini?
Rob Collie (00:32:14):
It was still project Gemini. You had gotten basically to the end of this book or close to it anyway. And your book was loaded with screenshots, from project Gemini where the field list said project Gemini at the top and all kinds was project Gemini everywhere. And then out comes the real name, Power pivot. And you're like [Spanish 00:32:37]
Bill Jelen (00:32:41):
That had to be a very unhappy day.
Rob Collie (00:32:42):
Do you remember what followed? I can fill it in if you don't.
Bill Jelen (00:32:46):
Yeah. Tell me what followed.
Rob Collie (00:32:47):
So the problem was, is that you had to be done with the book by a certain deadline for printing, but you weren't going to be able to get a hold of a beta of the product with the proper names in it, with power pivot in the UI for like another month or so maybe six weeks. It was, You had a real timing problem. It wasn't so much that you had to redo the screenshots cause that wasn't going to take you too long. It was just the fact that you didn't have anything to screenshot. And so the black market came through for you. Right? Shady Rob Collie said, Hey, in the spirit of benefit to my baby power pivot and to Microsoft, I'm going to give you access to my internal build of power pivot that already had the right names in it. You didn't come to me asking for me to do that. You were just like, Rob again, curses!, What kind of evil star chamber has decided to convene at Microsoft and decide to screw me, Bill Jelen personally.
Bill Jelen (00:33:41):
Yes, Cause that's always what it was. It was just trying to get me.
Rob Collie (00:33:46):
That's right.
Bill Jelen (00:33:46):
That's what everyone thinks.
Rob Collie (00:33:47):
I said, Hey, I got a solution. So we met up again at that sort of sketchy, suburban bonefish grill, parking lot. And I handed you a disc, and your power pivot book was able to go out with the proper on time and with the proper UI screenshots.
Bill Jelen (00:34:05):
I owe You a bottle of Rum for that or something.
Rob Collie (00:34:08):
I mean, I'm sad that you've forgotten this because to me, this is what cemented our friendship. The lunch was fun, but it was just going to be fun. But from that point forward, you owed me.
Bill Jelen (00:34:18):
I remember the lunch, you just had so much power pivot knowledge. Like you would just throw an offhand sentence out and I'd be like, holy smokes. This is something I completely don't understand, and then furiously, at least in my head scribbling notes of things I needed to go back think about in the book.
Rob Collie (00:34:35):
And, that's how my book was born. At least part of the story for it was that your book gave a comprehensive tour of all the things you could do in Power Pivot, sort of like each what all the different graphical elements do. But you largely had to take a pass on the Dax language because that was a whole universe of its own, and that's how the world's worst book title ever came to be Dax formulas for Power Pivot because it was originally, My book was meant to be a compliment to yours. That's how it all started.
Bill Jelen (00:35:10):
Why didn't we go with Dax-Vinci code with Tom Hanks and Rob Collie?
Rob Collie (00:35:15):
We just didn't have the budget back then. We weren't the multimillion dollar international conglomerate powerhouse we are today.
Bill Jelen (00:35:23):
Let's talk about Dax, let's, just for a second. If we go back to that tool I was using in finance that started the whole thing, a little bit of Dax in that tool would've solved the problem because it was the calculation on the total row that that tool couldn't do. And the fact that total that Dax can basically say, if this has one value, then do this other thing, That ability is I think why Power Pivot and Power BI didn't get caught in that problem of being able to create reports that no one wanted the fact that you can customize that through Dax. It's just phenomenal.
Rob Collie (00:35:59):
Look at Bill, just so casually throwing out the if has one value, like the ability for a DAX formula to inspect its own filter context and say, I'm over here now, I'm going to behave differently, I'm going to do a different aggregation at the total.
Bill Jelen (00:36:14):
That's badass. The fact... that is really badass, that one measure can change its behavior depending on whether it's on the parent [inaudible 00:36:22] or whatever.
Rob Collie (00:36:24):
There's your pull quote, Dax is bad ass.
Bill Jelen (00:36:27):
Dax is bad ass.
Rob Collie (00:36:28):
It is, isn't it? Well that in Power Query, are the two of them combined or something else?
Bill Jelen (00:36:34):
You know what the Power Query, So in my early life in Excel, I was always doing things in VBA, it was VBA. I don't have to do VBA at all anymore because Power Query gets me 99% of the way there. And some of the worst data nightmares that people have shown up in my seminar, I get there early and I walk around and see people have questions and they'll show me their data, some of the worst data nightmares ever you can solve in Power Query in minutes. And the fact that so many Excel people have no clue that it's there hiding back on the data tab.
Rob Collie (00:37:06):
So for certain aspects of what you used to do, you're now officially or unofficially retired from doing them. You were the seminar workhorse, man. You were like the hardest work in rock band in America, all over the place doing these seminars. How many seminars would you do a year sort of at peak?
Bill Jelen (00:37:25):
The goal was 35 a year. I was trying to do 35 a year, sometimes a little bit more than that. And as Mrs. Excel would point out 35 seminars a year, doesn't mean that you're gone 35 nights. It means that you're gone 70 nights, 70 days, and 35 doesn't sound like a lot, but 70, all of a sudden sounds like too many. And after doing that for 17 years, it was too much. And I'm glad that I made the decision to stop at the end of 2019 because had I had 35 seminars scheduled for 2020, everything would've been canceled. It just would've. But it, Like now in retrospect, we can say everything would've been canceled, but early on you would be like, oh yeah, this is still going to happen, we're going to make it.
Rob Collie (00:38:05):
We were touch and go for like our early March public class. It was scheduled for Charlotte. It came down to like, if it had been two weeks earlier, if it had been scheduled for two weeks earlier, or maybe even a week earlier, it would've happened. It was that close. But yeah, we canceled it. It was right when everyone decided, no more travel. So that was kind of a relief because I didn't want to put everybody at risk and it was nice to not have to make the decision, so that's it. That was the last in person thing that we did as a company, It was a year ago.
Bill Jelen (00:38:39):
I think the same thing for me because I was still going to do things in Florida. So I think I went up to Gainesville last January or Orlando probably early enough for half the seminar or something.
Rob Collie (00:38:47):
I Got to see on the biggest stage, one of the biggest of these sort of seminar dates, where were we? Tulsa?
Bill Jelen (00:38:53):
That was Tulsa, I think.
Rob Collie (00:38:55):
I got to see you in full high priest. I mean, this is a room with hundreds of people in it, it was a big room and-
Bill Jelen (00:39:03):
300 people in Tulsa.
Rob Collie (00:39:05):
..And there's more than that in the town. Just so you know.
Bill Jelen (00:39:11):
Some were busy that day I guess.
Rob Collie (00:39:13):
They didn't all make it. They all RSVP'd, the whole town. I think of myself as a reasonably good public speaker. I got to go before you, so I thought I killed it. And then you got up there and it was like this is next level, you have a lot of funny stories.
Bill Jelen (00:39:28):
Yes I do. So when I'm on stage in front of accountants, that was my favorite thing to do, because we were going to have fun. We, they had to be there. They had to get their CP credits, but we were going to have fun along the way. And people, if they start to doze off a little bit, it's time for a good, funny story, and I had all kinds of stories and I would love that eight hours, 8:30 to 4:30 being in front of that room. It was just getting there and then getting home that was miserable and the flights and everything. It was definitely fun. Definitely just so much fun.
Rob Collie (00:40:05):
Can we hear a couple of your favorites? I mean, do we need to pay extra? Do we need those chart, paying appearance fees? If we get some.
Thomas LaRock (00:40:11):
What happened to the handshake? Come on.
Rob Collie (00:40:13):
Well, we can make a deal right here.
Bill Jelen (00:40:15):
So almost always, I would start off with a story, Again these are accountants, these are accountants or finance people. And so I would almost always start the story about when I was sitting up in accounting and I got a call from a woman down in the marketing department, and I go down and she had been in a trade show and they handed her a floppy disc with a list of all the people who had been at the trade show, area code in column A phone number in column B. And she over in column C was typing open parenthesis, area code, closing parenthesis, space, phone number. And she had been doing this for like an hour and Had thousands, thousands to go through. And she doesn't use Excel every day. This is probably the first time she's opened Excel this year. And one of her coworkers walks up behind her and says, what are you doing?
Bill Jelen (00:41:04):
And he said, I have area code in column A and phone number in column B. And now that guy who was also from the marketing department, he doesn't know either. Because he never uses Excel, but he knows me. Let's call bill Jelen upstairs in the accounting. And there must be some fast way to do this. so then I go down to the marketing department, I show her how to create a formula to concatenate those things together. Then double click, the fill handle and bam!, All 5,000 are done and she's just thrilled. so then I walk back up towards the accounting department and unbeknownst to me, I'm whistling a little happy tune because I know that I've just saved her eight hours worth of work. So I get up to the accounting department and I barely sit down and my phone rings and it's this lady.
Bill Jelen (00:41:42):
She was so happy. The data she had over there in column C, she says, I don't need this data. And of course people were watching me live, so I click on a drag to B and then right click. I don't need this data anymore. And of course, because I hadn't changed the formulas to values, everything is gone, It's all hash rough errors all the way down. I mean that story. And in the course of that story, you're going to learn how to use concatenate. You're going to learn how to double click the fill handle. You're going to learn how to several different ways, eight different ways, how to pay special values, including rob the way. My favorite trick of all time came from Dave in Columbus, Indiana. So just 75 miles south of you right now, Dave and in Columbus, Indiana showed me a way to copy and paste special values without ever doing the copy in some secret menu that was somehow built into Excel that I had never seen in 25 years of using spreadsheets. But somehow Dave in Columbus, Indiana, and knows how to do this trick.
Rob Collie (00:42:35):
Well that's, I mean, I don't even know what the feature is, but I know the committee that was in charge of hiding it. We would periodically meet at the pizza parlor, smoke filled room and say between puffs, we'd go. Okay. So we're the coolest things in Excel that we're going to hide this week.
Bill Jelen (00:42:56):
We have reports of users finding this and we need to put the stop to that.
Rob Collie (00:43:00):
That's right, it's just a matter of time before Bill sees this and it puts a smile on his face. So we can't have that. Now can we?.
Bill Jelen (00:43:10):
Like that story from Dave, he's Dave in row one of Columbus, Indiana that all of these people who gave me these tips, I remember them like Derek from row six in Springfield, Missouri, they give me these awesome tricks and it's like, how did you ever discover this? But it doesn't matter. There's 750 million people using a cell. Someone is going to accidentally, discover something. And then I run into that person and they give me that trick and then it's off to the races because I'm going to take that trick, And I'm like the Johnny Appleseed of Excel, you know, I'm going to take it from city to city, to city and make sure that people know, that that's there.
Rob Collie (00:43:43):
I remember one time I was trying to explain to you, In the early days, one of the cool things about Dax, was distinct count, the ability to get count of unique values and, you agreed that that was really cool, but you disagreed with something else I said in which I said, this wasn't possible in Excel before now. And you said, oh contrary [inaudible 00:44:06], and I said, I was like a bar bet. And I was like you can't do that. And you said, yeah, I can. And then you go through the most elaborate series of Rube Goldberg, gymnastics that I have ever seen. And I knew as you were going through it to not even bother committing it to memory, I could just tell that this was at the end. You had a unique count of something and so now we had a dispute, whether that had actually counted as possible.
Bill Jelen (00:44:33):
Well, no, I remember you go to the source data, add a new column, one divided by the count, if right. And so if there's seven of them then each one gets 14%, it adds up it's one, right?
Rob Collie (00:44:44):
My brain is still, right now. Busy, not committing this to memory.
Bill Jelen (00:44:48):
How could you not know this? You are on the Excel team for God's sakes. But it was, was it, I don't know if it was that same lunch or the other lunch? I was having such a good time because we were resonating so perfectly like everything you said I was, I was absolutely down with that. And then you said the sentence that blew my mind. You said "our internal customers will be really upset with Power Pivot because they can't use Get-Pivot data". And I'm like, what? No, Rob, you don't understand Get-Pivot. Data is the worst thing ever. Everyone wants to know how to turn it off, and you said, "that's the people outside of Microsoft. I'm talking about our internal customers, the accountants at Microsoft". And then you proceeded to show me how they use Get-Pivot data. I'm like, that was Rob from my table in Beachwood, Ohio.
Rob Collie (00:45:36):
Yeah. That's right. Row one of the fish grill. Rob in the front row with the long island iced tea, So now I think that we came full circle on this, on the Wayne Winston episode.
Bill Jelen (00:45:54):
That God mentioned on Wayne's Wayne's episode.
Rob Collie (00:45:56):
we think that the reason why everyone internal to Microsoft was, was using that technique was that Wayne had been teaching it.
Bill Jelen (00:46:05):
He said that.
Rob Collie (00:46:07):
And I didn't know that until years later. So it's just like, oh my gosh, the power that one person's innovation can have when you share it is intense. It went from Wayne to like this diffuse audience of all these like finance professionals at Microsoft. And I had to go and like sort of circulate amongst them to pick this up, that this was something that they were all doing. It took a long time to sort of absorb that. And then I take that and transmit it to you and you light up and you go, I could imagine there had been some accident where you take Wayne Winston aside one day and say, Hey Wayne, have you seen what you can get? And it'd be like, that's how you'll write your name on a dollar bill and it comes back to you five years later. So if Power BI had existed back in the mid nineties, that's where you would've gone.
Bill Jelen (00:46:58):
Yeah. That's true.
Rob Collie (00:46:59):
The Excel route took you a lot of different places than what Power BI takes you, but based on sort of your first really intensive collision with spreadsheets, that's power BI's turf today. That's really interesting. Isn't it?
Bill Jelen (00:47:13):
It is. It's time and place. When did that happen? When did I happen to end up in that finance department in Akron and need to create those reports and what were the tools available? So yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:23):
Have you gotten deep into Lambda functions yet?
Bill Jelen (00:47:25):
Lambda functions are awesome and I want to embrace them, but what's funny is so many other people are embracing them better than I am, The recursion in Lambda functions is just wild. And then the people who we could let inside of Lambda functions.
Rob Collie (00:47:44):
Wait. This just came out.
Bill Jelen (00:47:46):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:47:47):
Okay. So I only know of them through, through the stuff I've been doing in the past few years with Python. And so when you asked him just now Lambda, I was thinking we're going to start talking Python. I got really excited. So I just did a quick search. It just came out in December or there's a post from December. So it was just released in the latest version.
Bill Jelen (00:48:06):
Just released. It's still in beta.
Thomas LaRock (00:48:07):
It sounds like it's probably does the same thing because you also said recursion. So sounds like it's similar to the functionality I would guess from Python.
Bill Jelen (00:48:15):
We would have to assume it is. The Excel team was excited because they said it makes Excel Turing T-U-R-I-N-G complete, whatever that is now means that you can do everything. Every calculation in Excel, thanks to Lambda functions.
Rob Collie (00:48:28):
You can now mathematically provably. If something's Turing complete, you could use Excel as the software language to build literally anything. If you wanted to build windows, the windows operating system, you could build it in Excel now, it wouldn't be a good choice but you mathematically could.
Bill Jelen (00:48:46):
So I was wondering why they called it This.
Rob Collie (00:48:49):
Tom is lighting us up.
Thomas LaRock (00:48:50):
So, I want-[crosstalk 00:23:51]
Rob Collie (00:48:53):
[inaudible 00:48:53]...Church.
Thomas LaRock (00:48:54):
I'm finding a lot of overlap in this stuff I'm doing with Python. Python uses arrays in data frames, things that we would just consider to be tables. A lot of Python is simply being data janitor. You're going to get all these different data sources and how the data is and you're going to bring it in and you're going to sanitize it for whatever purpose you're going to have down the line, which could be data science, or it could just be building a pipeline. So it outputs in CSV, which then ends up in somebody's Power BI.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:28):
Python is just this brilliant little thing, but I see so much overlap because when you guys talk about Power Query, well there's a whole part of Python, which is just scraping the web So instead of using Python to scrape the web what if I just put that into Excel and call it the Power Query and they just did all that stuff for you, you didn't have to even worry about coding, you just pick and choose, so I live in this world where I have enough knowledge of both tools to see the real power of using them together. I try to do some data science machine learning stuff, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:03):
=stuff, right. It's just, I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to clean my data using Python. I'm just going to go to Excel, make it all pretty, figure out from there and then bring it back in as a data frame, and that's going to save me a bunch of time. But anyway, I'm excited now, Lambda functions, this is interesting.
Bill Jelen (00:50:16):
The other really weird thing, just weird coincidence, about the Lambda functions is everyone knows the mathematician Turing. His professor was a guy named Alonzo Church and he was the inventor of Lambda calculus. And so the Lambda function is named after this guy, Alonzo Church, and Rob, Alonzo Church ended his career at Case Western University and probably, he died in 1995, he probably ate at that bonefish grill that you and I were at.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:43):
Probably. Yeah.
Bill Jelen (00:50:44):
I mean we were all within 10 miles of each other at that point.
Rob Collie (00:50:48):
You remember that old, it was a BBC history show called, Connections?
Bill Jelen (00:50:53):
No, I don't.
Rob Collie (00:50:54):
Oh, it was awesome.
Bill Jelen (00:50:54):
This would make a great episode, wouldn't it?
Rob Collie (00:50:56):
The host of this show would trace these weird coincidental chains and overlaps, like the thing we just talked about. And Wayne Winston was at Microsoft teaching matter. But then it wouldn't be Rob Collie that crossed paths with those people, it would be someone else famous. And then Thomas Edison happened to be brother-in-law to the bla-bla or whatever. Right?
Bill Jelen (00:51:17):
Yeah, right.
Rob Collie (00:51:18):
And sometimes it would span centuries and I think he would bring it back. He'd actually bring it full circle. He'd connect back to the original. It was insane. It was almost like, he had to be making this up.
Bill Jelen (00:51:29):
Well, so with your GETPIVOTDATA trick, you said that came from Microsoft finance. And I was in Australia, having dinner in Australia and a seminar, and this is one where the Excel team sent someone who was Carlos Otero, who was on the Excel team, but had worked in accounting at Microsoft. I said, Hey Carl, so I've heard this story about Rob, did you guys use GETPIVOTDATA this way? He's oh, we do that all the time. Yeah. So it was we are validation. You go, Rob, didn't just make that up.
Rob Collie (00:51:54):
Yeah. Bill still not trusting me all those years later, despite our handshake agreement. He's like I'm still going to fact check him.
Bill Jelen (00:52:02):
Might just, it came up. All right. So Tom, I appreciate that you could say Python. Python scares the heck out of me, not because of the learning curve, but I think Rob, you call it the learning cliff. I've bought a couple of Python for Excel user type things, and it just seems so intimidating to get up that curve to do anything useful. Have you actually, what are the steps? I'm an Excel guy. I know Excel really well. Just what are the first three baby steps I have to do? So, that way I can say I've done something in Python.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:31):
So let me see if I can get this right. I think around 2016 or so, is when I said to myself, I really, I want to make an effort to pivot slightly in my career as a data professional and the pivot I want to go to is data science. So I have a background in math. I have a master's in math and a lot of what I see in data science was stuff that I was doing in school many years ago, with paper and pencil, right. It's just stats. It's a T value Z value. I'm like yeah, I remember this stuff. So, back in the day, I would've, what we call data science, back in the day was getting a job with a big six as an actuary. That's essentially what our data scientists of today are doing, except there's other cool things, because you can apply it to lots of different projects.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:15):
So Microsoft and edX had this online courses that you could take. And I blogged about how my journey, where I basically sucked up as many data science certifications I could, through that edX, and a lot of it was at the time heavily reinforced with Azure products. So I got to learn a lot about Azure Machine Learning studio and things of that nature. And there's all sorts of little things in there. For this course, we're going to use Python for this, and they walk you through the one little thing that they need you to learn on that day. Right? So I think I finished in 2017 or 18 or something like that. And since then I've been just trying to apply it. Because how else are you going to learn, except by actually doing it. So I'm all right, so what can I do? So there's some websites there's Kaggle, which has data science competitions.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:05):
For example, there's a competition, I think the TSA put some money up where they said, when we put your stuff through the x-ray help us build a better algorithm for detecting objects and things like that. And first prize is $500,000 and I wrote about, and I go, so let me know the next time you make $500,000, tuning a sequel query. Because I'm going to be over here doing this stuff, cause that sounds awesome. So what I did next was I started getting into DataCamp and their online Python courses. They're easily digestible for me and I've been consuming them as fast as I possibly can. Now your original question was, what were the three things? And I've given this long winded answer of how I got involved. How I've gotten to this point, is all of those classes that I've been doing is simply reinforcing similar concepts over and over and over again, but by different instructors.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:57):
So I'm learning it in a slightly different way. So somebody says, hey we're going to do data visualizations today. That might be important to you, but probably not to Mr. Excel. But it might be important to somebody and you end up with a similar class, taught six different ways and it just gets reinforced. Because the concepts and the terms become more and more familiar, but they're showing you a slightly different way to do it. So for example, Lambda is really just a short way to do a recursion function or any function. You don't have to do it that way. You could write a whole function if you want and call it from anywhere. But now you get into this thing of, yeah but Lambda functions are actually more efficient in terms of processing and memory.
Bill Jelen (00:55:39):
Right.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:40):
And so now you start getting, now there's a whole course on, hey you want to tune your Python code? Let me show you this stuff. So for you, Mr. Excel, I would tell you that the first thing I think you should maybe, given all your experiences, you should get into understanding the difference between a data frame and an array, when you would want one versus the other, how are they useful. The other things I would tell you is they do have pivot table. You can pivot your data. I think for you, it would end up being so clunky compared to what you do in Excel, but you would understand the concepts of it. And then I guess, really the question is, what would you want to learn Python for? Why do you think Python is something you would need? For me, it was all about the data science.
Bill Jelen (00:56:26):
I need to be able to walk into a bar with a laptop, put the laptop on the bar, get five people around me and do something in Python and have them all go, that's what I want.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:36):
The thing with Excel is that it's visual. Python isn't going to have that same visualization. But I do think that there's a Python studio to help with that.
Bill Jelen (00:56:44):
Okay. Python studio.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:45):
I don't know if that, that's not what it's called, but I think there's some way for you to have that visualization. Otherwise it's just going to be code.
Rob Collie (00:56:52):
I've Got a shortcut. Ready? Probably know what's coming. It's going to be cynical. Don't learn it.
Bill Jelen (00:56:59):
Oh, come on. All the cool kids, all the cool kids are learning it.
Rob Collie (00:57:02):
I know. I know. And yet with the tools you've got, you can do a tremendous amount of the actual valuable things that you would do with Python. And you can do things that you really couldn't really particularly do very well with Python either. Here's a theory of mine. This is more factual, I think, than the previous opinion where I said, don't learn it, right? There's something real here. Just a question to what extent you agree. So there are certain kinds of tools. There are tools that are sort of purpose built and still flexible. And this is funny, a little bit humane, not a lot humane, but a little bit humane. In the same way that Mac, Apple will approach a problem, a consumer problem and solve it in a way that is easier for people to learn and people will kind of want to learn it, at all ages.
Rob Collie (00:57:55):
And then Microsoft will walk up to the same problem, for example, signing you in, and end up with a sign in process that is itself super complicated and requires you to sort of anticipate what the machine is trying to do in order to navigate your way around it. Apple would never do that. Now in that same way, Microsoft has a gift of approaching, as a culture, of approaching complicated business systems, complicated business products. And over time anyway, making them approachable to sort of this lower end developer who doesn't think of themself as a developer. The success of Excel under the Microsoft banner is the single greatest example of this. Everyone's slinging formulas in Excel or writing VBA, but even just writing formulas is a programmer, is a developer, but they don't know it. And a general purpose language like Python, is built for and by the computer science set, that was my background, right?
Rob Collie (00:58:58):
I'm a computer scientist, right? And so I think a tool like that, because it's meant to be everything, any programming language that allows you to draw visualizations and clean data, is so general purpose that it's going to have one of these steep learning cliffs. And it's going to be a cool kid thing, because everybody that's part of that club, worked hard to get into it, and then kind of lords it over everybody else. It's just sort of how people are. I think that something like Python is something that most people are either going to learn at the very beginning of their career. If you're not a computer scientist, right? If you're a computer scientist, you're going to eat this kind of stuff up every time it comes along. A new programming language being unleashed on the world is like a Christmas present to you. You're like oh my God, I can't wait to try out this new programming language because it gives me some sort of, scratches some itch for me to do these sorts of things.
Rob Collie (00:59:48):
Most of humanity isn't like that. If you're not a computer scientist, you might learn Python at the beginning of your career. Almost like when you're still in college, when you're young and you still have time to do that because the rest of the job hasn't consumed you yet. I just don't think Python has that, I can adopt it, 15 years into my career, sort of characteristics to it. In the same way that say something like Power Query does or Power Pivot or the DAX data model. What you do of course is not really the point. The joke that I made about Bill, don't go do this. It isn't really about you at all. I don't have anything against Python and I certainly don't have anything against you going and learning it. It's more for the rest of the audience, that's listening. If you're sitting here going, what do I do with my career right now? And you're kind of in the Excel space, the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth things you should be doing, are getting better at the things that Microsoft is throwing at you and then hiding. You don't need to have this FOMO, dear audience, about Python. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn it. I'm not saying that it's not a good thing to learn, but when we consider that everything's prioritized, if you haven't already, kind of, quote unquote mastered or gotten competent at Power Query, DAX and Data modeling, that's your next frontier. And you're going to be just ridiculously effective as you climb that curve. And without having to run smack forehead first into the Python cliff.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:15):
So Rob, I'm not going to disagree entirely because I actually think you are right about almost all of that, except you could just reversed it and talk glowingly about the need to do Python and not worry about Excel.
Bill Jelen (01:01:26):
But I wouldn't have.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:28):
You could have.
Bill Jelen (01:01:29):
I wouldn't have
Thomas LaRock (01:01:31):
But bill, if you're looking for something cool, then what you're going to want. You have a unique opportunity, I feel, because your depth of experience with Excel, that you can kind of blend the two together. If you're for example, you could use Python to scrape a website and then say, by the way, this is also available in Excel as Power Query. And here's the difference between the two. Somebody might be impressed by the ease at which you can point Python at some URL and just scrape everything necessary and get data from a Wikipedia article. That's one thing. Another big thing though, is sentiment analysis, right? You, you could go say hook into Twitter's API, pull back a whole bunch. You were talking about a work cloud earlier. You could pull back a whole bunch of stuff and say what's the current sentiment for my book, or something like that.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:21):
But that's something you're not going to really do in Excel, but that's going to be something that also has value for another person out there. They're going to be like, you know what, marketing specifically, oh I can get sentiment analysis fairly quickly with a few lines of Python code. That's actually kind of interesting. There's always going to be some type of unique application. Like Rob said, it's general purpose, Python, right? And there's so many aspects of it, but you should be able to find something, that I would say, you can bring together both worlds because you could do the sentiment analysis and then build a power BI dashboard on top of it.
Bill Jelen (01:03:02):
Yeah. Right.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:03):
One thing my friends had done over at Microsoft was sentiment analysis on movies, specifically Marvel versus DC. And what was funny is you found out through the sentiment, you could kind of use that to predict the amount of revenue a movie might make on opening weekend.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:23):
And what was funny was if you had movies that had, if there was much more positive sentiment, it was going to make a lot more money. So I'd be there, they'd be actively collecting data and then I would be on Twitter, tweeting something negative, slightly, about the upcoming movies. And then you found the movie didn't have enough revenue. So I would then tell Disney and others, that for a low fee, I could tweet much more positive things, so you could make more money. Clearly there's a correlation between these two events. My positive tweets or my negative tweets in your bottom line. Now I'm not saying I'm holding it for ransom. I'm just saying, it's a thing that you can show other people, which is kind of cool.
Rob Collie (01:04:04):
You're not holding it for ransom. You're just offering it for sale. It's different. So I thought what you were saying now, I was interpreting it as different, which was. I was hoping you were saying, I guess, that it was doing sentiment analysis on the script of the movie.
Thomas LaRock (01:04:20):
You could do that too.
Rob Collie (01:04:21):
And Michael Salvino, one of our previous guests, he loves analytics in sports, but at the same time he thinks analytics are ruining sports, because it's driving everyone towards this single optimal strategy. And a lot of the interest values being squeezed out of sports, like famously in baseball, it's all strikeouts and home runs. No one cares about anything else anymore and no one's optimizing for it anymore. So there's a lot of the most interesting aspects of the game are gone. And here's where I would whisper, and baseball couldn't afford to lose the interesting things.
Rob Collie (01:04:52):
Cause it was already pretty dull. Can't resist, sorry. I have a tendency to say things that are sort of glib and short and dramatic and nasty, in some ways. Even though in my heart, there's something very different. Let me see if I can circle back. So there was a Twitter thread over the weekend that I wanted to Wade into, but decided I didn't, where it involved Chris Webb and Marco Russo and some other people talking about MDX versus DAX. If you don't know what MDX is, it's the precursor to Dax. It was the thing that was in the formula language, expression language of SQL server, analysis services in the old multidimensional format. And there's a lot of diplomatic or partisan team MDX, team DAX, team both sides. But it was all talking about the strengths and weaknesses of the languages in terms of their technical capabilities.
Rob Collie (01:05:48):
It was primarily focused on that. Or how tedious they were in certain ways to use. And I wanted to join in and say, well, folks, it isn't about MDX versus DAX. It's not about the technology one versus technology two, it's about their adaptability. So for example, I tried multiple times at Microsoft to learn MDX and I had access to all the people who built it, and I couldn't learn it or I wouldn't learn it. I just rejected it. It was awful. Just hated that thing. 15 minutes into the explanation of how to write an if. And I'm oh, I'm out. I am out, get me out. So that's me and MDX. And then me and DAX, all I do is write a book that sells millions and millions of dollars at retail about tax. That's a striking difference, right?
Rob Collie (01:06:42):
To me it was sort of a silly argument. Which one's better is MDX still, blah, blah, blah. No MDX is not going away. But in terms of a percentage of the population, it is going to round to zero in relevance, relative to DAX because of its adaptability. So, that's what I'm really saying. Yes, Python is like, hey it's turning complete. You can do anything with Python. If you learn Python, you in theory, don't have to learn anything else. Whereas with Microsoft, you've got to learn DAX to do this and you've got to learn Power Query to do that. And yet, each one of those things, Dax, for each particular purpose is both better than Python for that purpose and more learnable for that purpose. And so I think the Microsoft ecosystem of users, especially the Excel crowd, is sort of a demonstrated group that will incrementally learn sort of one new thing about their tool set every two weeks, and just sort of incrementally pile that up into the point where they're just monsters.
Rob Collie (01:07:43):
They didn't go and learn Python, at some intensive bootcamp, they've been learning these tools sort of in a drizzling rest, never sleeps sort of way, and years later they're gods. And so I'm really just speaking sort of my own ecosystem, that the people that I know. If you are one of the computer science types or one of the types that's looking to completely change careers and things like that, or you just can't help it. And you're just curious about this other tool, not going to make fun of you. I'm going to salute you for going and learning this thing. I'm just saying that most people aren't like that. And there's a lot more people out there who will learn these other tools like Dax and M and that's all I have to say about that.
Bill Jelen (01:08:27):
So From the Excel point of view, when you look at the DAX formula language and the Excel formula language, there's so much overlap, that an Excel person can easily just start doing simple things in DAX, and they'll feel like it's their home, they already know 80%. And then you add the good stuff on top. That gives you super power.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:46):
Bill, have you played with DAX Studio.
Bill Jelen (01:08:47):
No.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:48):
Okay. Forget Python, go play with DAX studio.
Bill Jelen (01:08:51):
Okay. There we are.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:52):
I'm serious.
Bill Jelen (01:08:53):
I'm writing it down.
Rob Collie (01:08:54):
One of the number one things, the thing you just said, just triggered it for me. One of the biggest disconnects between Excel formulas and DAX, is the inability to step through it. The inability to evaluate step by step. And Excel sometimes you do this just by splitting your formula into multiple columns. You sort of see intermediate steps. So you can sort of see where the error happened. Where did things go wrong? But you also have the, evaluate formula step through, feature. And so much of DAX happens in places that's invisible.
Rob Collie (01:09:25):
But DAX Studio allows you to do things, like that filter function that I wrote in the middle of my formula. I can evaluate just that filter function, forget the rest of the formula and just see what the table it looks like that's hidden under the hood in computer memory. And I never see it in my measure formula, but I can see it explode out under the screen. It's not quite the same as a step through. It's not quite as good as that, but Bill, I think, you spend a week with that or less suddenly you'd come back to me and you would be running circles around me in DAX.
Bill Jelen (01:10:01):
That's hard to believe, but I'm definitely going to try it.
Rob Collie (01:10:04):
Apparently. I really have it in for Python.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:07):
You have a thing for Python.
Rob Collie (01:10:09):
And R we could, we could substitute R in here and I'd be saying the same things about it.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:14):
R to me, is just very focused data science. And it does that very well. Python, I think is just more extensible. Python's more widely adopted. You find it has more modules. So that's why I went Pythons instead of R. This all actually really started when R got brought into SQL server. That's when I was all right, this is getting a little more serious. I should start learning a little bit more about this. And then it was Mark Cuban who tweeted one night, that he was doing some Python for some analysis on basketball and stuff like that. And I, why would you choose Python over R? And a bunch of people, not Mark replied, helped me understand a little bit about the difference. And so that's when I made the pivot to Python.
Bill Jelen (01:10:58):
Wow. Right there. I mean, Python was on the list. R was on the list and TikTok. Those are the big three that I [crosstalk 01:11:05]
Thomas LaRock (01:11:07):
Oh my God is Python and TikTok a thing. Let me check. Cause if it's not, I want a corner in that market. It has to be.
Rob Collie (01:11:14):
Yeah, right.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:15):
Bill says, there's someone doing Excel, TikToks.
Bill Jelen (01:11:18):
Yeah. 15 seconds or less. And it's impressive. What you can learn in 15 seconds and a TikTok Excel tutorial, two variable data tables. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:28):
This is known as, not Rob's medium. I'm still in the process of saying hello and time's up.
Bill Jelen (01:11:38):
It's a challenge. It's a challenge. How to teach something in 15 seconds.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:41):
I'm going to create a new platform called TikTok, TikTok, TikTok. It's this 45 second video.
Bill Jelen (01:11:47):
Gives you 45 Seconds.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:52):
And even then it won't be enough. That's just the introduction to the lesson. Today we're going to learn this. If you want to see the rest of it, you go to YouTube. So is it a thing, Tom?
Rob Collie (01:12:06):
Yeah, there are people. I'm finding there's a lot of Python coding videos.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:11):
On TikTok?
Rob Collie (01:12:12):
Yeah. On TikTok. Python itself seems to be about actual snakes in addition to some coding. And now I'm more enthralled by these snake videos.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:23):
So while we're talking about snakes, let's talk about a statistical concept known as risk. I was reading this on Reddit one day and it's just stuck with me ever since. It's just one of the funniest things. We do it all the time. We talk about this all the time at our house in various forms. They're talking about people who have poisonous snakes as pets. You know how Reddit comment threads go. They're very conversational. It sounds like the same voice is talking to itself. These different people on the internet, but it's the same wise internet voice talking back and forth to itself. And talking about how, whenever you know someone, whenever you meet someone who handles poisonous snakes, they have poisonous snakes as pets. What do you hear? You always hear the same thing over and over again. Oh, it's not that dangerous.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:03):
As long as you know what you're doing, right. As long as you know what you're doing, it's perfectly safe. It's perfectly safe. The risks are vastly overstated. In fact, this person would go on to tell you, my father was a snake handler like this, my uncle was a snake handler with this. And then you go, oh yeah. Are they still doing it? Oh, no, no, they're dead. Well, how did your dad die? Snake bites. How did your uncle die? Snake bites. It's like human ability to properly estimate risk, maybe in a single trial. But underestimate it over a large number of trials.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:46):
It's kind of the birthday problem. Right? How many people did you have to have in the room, before it's likely that two people share a birthday. It's ridiculously small, right? It's 24 or 30 or something like that. And the chances of two people having a birthday that are the same, are nothing, like oh I'll run that risk, a fraction of a percent. But you keep up in the trial. It's not the same problem. It's not the same as the birthday problem. But the point is, is that over thousands of trials, that fraction of a percent, if you did the math on, are you going to survive thousands of trials? It turns out that no, you are not.
Rob Collie (01:14:21):
Well, that was always the thing with the data center, right? If there's a 0.01% chance of a disc failure. So that's one in 10,000, but I've got a data center with 10,000 discs, you know one of them just failed. You just, yeah. That's how it works.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:37):
Yeah. And it's 0.01% over a particular period of time. And so in a six month period, I mean a hard drive's only got a one in 10,000 chance of failing, but we run those discs for five years and we've got banks of banks and banks and banks of them. Yeah, exactly. We're having one every second now I don't know what it was that we were talking about that led to that. Oh, Python. The snake=
Rob Collie (01:15:03):
Yeah. I don't know what it was that we were talking about that led to that. Oh, python, the snake handly.
Bill Jelen (01:15:04):
It's snakes, right? The TikTok.
Rob Collie (01:15:06):
I mean, pythons. Yeah. They've got a lower fatality rate than cobras.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:10):
Aren't pythons an issue in Florida right now? Don't they have to go hunt them?
Rob Collie (01:15:14):
Yes.
Bill Jelen (01:15:15):
Yeah. And I think there's a reward if you get them, I think.
Rob Collie (01:15:19):
Yeah. And it's gotten to the point where they've realized, of course, that only the females really matter to the reproductive capacity of the species males, biologically speaking, ecologically speaking, males aren't worth very much, right? So they've gotten to the point where if they catch a male, they don't kill it. They radio collar it so that it leads them to the females.
Bill Jelen (01:15:42):
Wow.
Rob Collie (01:15:44):
Right? A male, a live male is actually more valuable as a weapon against the population than they are a contributor to the future of the population. Killing a male does nothing.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:57):
I'm surprised they just haven't reversed engineered their DNA. And inject them with something that they take back to the nest and just wipes everything out.
Rob Collie (01:16:05):
Well, and then we get movies like I Am Legend where this engineered thing hops species and just...
Thomas LaRock (01:16:17):
But what's... That's a 0.01% chance?
Rob Collie (01:16:20):
Oh, I know. I know. Yeah. It's perfectly safe if you know what you're doing.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:27):
It's like a one in a billion chance that it'll affect a human.
Rob Collie (01:16:31):
And so, because it's so safe, we're going to generate all these kits that you can do at home. You can engineer your own virus at home. I'm sure it'll be fine.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:39):
What's the worst that could happen?
Bill Jelen (01:16:42):
What's the worst that could happen.
Rob Collie (01:16:45):
Only bet as much as you can afford to win. Here's something that's interesting. So Bill, you've diversified. When the phone rings and it's you, every now and then my iPhone decides to put under your name, Bill Jelen, to put under your name, the words "We Report Space."
Bill Jelen (01:17:03):
That's hilarious. Yeah. Right.
Rob Collie (01:17:05):
I don't think of you as We Report Space, I think of you as MrExcel.
Bill Jelen (01:17:09):
MrExcel.
Rob Collie (01:17:09):
And holding macro books. That's your alter ego as far as I'm concerned. And then there's Bill Jelen, but now you're also...
Bill Jelen (01:17:18):
We Report Space.
Rob Collie (01:17:19):
For a podcast about data, there's a strange near-100% Venn diagram overlap with people who are interested in rockets and Mars and things like that, so what is We Report Space? Are you out there running around, checking on the moon? News reports from the lunar surface?
Bill Jelen (01:17:36):
I'm going to blame this on Penn and Teller. I was in Las Vegas doing a seminar. You check in, they're like, "Well, can we book you any shows?" I was like, "Hey, Penn and Teller, let's go see Penn and Teller." And then afterwards, Penn and Teller, they talk to everyone in the audience and they're selling their book. And so I buy their book and on a flight home, it says, "You need to go see a space shuttle launch at Kennedy Space Center once in your life." All right. An STS-135, the very last launch. We came down from Ohio to Florida to see that launch and we got there four hours early and we're sitting there just talking with other people in their lawn chairs who were lined up to watch this launch. And some guy next to us says that his friend right now is at the press site, three miles from the launch pad, thanks to some lottery he won on Twitter. I'm like, "What?" Yeah, he says, "Yeah, there's a lottery on Twitter." All right.
Bill Jelen (01:18:23):
And so two years later I was just cruising through Twitter and there's a lottery to go see a launch. I'm like, "Hey, yeah, I'm going to sign up for that." It was an early SpaceX launch and they scrubbed, which means they didn't launch. And then, 30 people won this lottery and they showed up to watch this. And then they scrubbed. And then a month later, 20 of them came back, and it scrubbed. And then there was another launch. And by the time they finally launched on their fourth opportunity, there were only seven of us that made it to each one. And three of those seven formed a group that is now We Report Space, right? So I'm here 12 miles away from the launch pads.
Bill Jelen (01:19:01):
We actually started working, the three of us started working for another outlet, right? Another website. And the three of us quickly found that our attitude towards life is "we don't give a shit." That's our motto. It's just... And the guy that we were working for was very angry. He was a very angry guy and the three of us all run our own companies and we're like, "We don't really appreciate this, he's not resonating with the 'we don't give a shit.'" So we finally just decided to leave and start our own outlet where our overriding credo is "we don't give a shit." Right? You can't make it? That's okay. Right? Or, it didn't happen? That's okay. There's other people that got to that photograph.
Bill Jelen (01:19:44):
But what's really fascinating, it's a techy thing, the ability to leave a camera too close to the rocket for a human to be, and to have that camera take pictures, and the camera's going to be out in the Florida environment for 24 hours or 48 hours. And to engineer this whole thing to work and take the photos right. And just get some amazing photos. It was just a blast and it's a techy thing to be able to get everything to work right. Again, a great group of people out there at the press site. People have been doing this for 30 years. Generally they all share their information. You say, "Ah, yeah, this didn't work." And they're like, "Oh, you should try this." So just a great group of people down here in Florida that cover those launches and are willing to accept new people showing up, I guess. And generally be cool.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:32):
I was going to say that, I guess you guys don't know this, I thought, Rob, you knew this, but I did win one of the NASA Tweetups.
Bill Jelen (01:20:43):
You were at NASA Social, weren't you?
Thomas LaRock (01:20:46):
I was at NASA Social. So yeah. NASA Tweetup is a thing. It's awesome. And now my buddy, who worked for... He did some contract work with Canon who does all the cameras around the launchpad, and he got a nice photo of me watching. It went up. And then I got to see the pictures that they had taken. But as you described, the weather, the acid that comes down from the rocket layer that just destroys these... So they have to be in these boxes and just the entire process of how you can take, like Bill said, a photograph where no human can live.
Rob Collie (01:21:18):
And they have to be, those cameras have to be python proof?
Bill Jelen (01:21:21):
Oh sure.
Thomas LaRock (01:21:23):
The gators by the launchpad, the gators are a thing.
Bill Jelen (01:21:26):
And the army...
Rob Collie (01:21:27):
Don't worry, the python's reading those.
Bill Jelen (01:21:29):
And the armadillos. And it's why... And Tom, I did know that, I knew that about you, that you had been to, the NASA Tweetup is now NASA Social, that you had been to one. I don't know, maybe Rob told me that or something, somehow I connected that dot.
Thomas LaRock (01:21:44):
That's awesome that you're... I didn't know you were down there doing work with them. I'm fascinated. I need to learn more now.
Bill Jelen (01:21:49):
When we say work-
Rob Collie (01:21:49):
You can find Bill's work at his website, we don't give a shit about space dot com.
Bill Jelen (01:21:56):
We Report Space dot com, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:21:58):
All right. So let's just recap for a moment. You started in Lotus 1-2-3 as the export to Excel BI guy, which I'm still going to call export to Excel, even though it was Lotus 1-2-3 at the time.
Bill Jelen (01:22:09):
Of course.
Rob Collie (01:22:09):
And then that kind of beautifully metastasized into the entire MrExcel empire that we know today. But along the way, I think we missed something in there. Something really, really unique and important. So I would definitely want to circle back. The first time I had to conduct any business with you that involved money changing hands, I had to make out a check to Tickling Keys.
Bill Jelen (01:22:35):
Tickling Keys, Inc. That's right.
Rob Collie (01:22:36):
Tickling Keys, Inc. I expected it to be MrExcel or Bill Jelen, or maybe even Holy Macro Books, but no, it was Tickling Keys. And for a while I was just like, "Oh, that's so neat. He's talking about, in that name, he's talking about himself writing his book. He's just sitting there just tickling the keys and just brilliant Excel is flowing onto the page as he tickles those keys." I brought up to you one time after a year of believing that, and the reality behind that name is way cooler than what I'd imagined. So what's the origin of the name, Tickling Keys?
Bill Jelen (01:23:14):
Tickling Keys, we didn't start out as an Excel consultancy, or even as an Excel website. I grew up, in our basement there was a player piano from 1920, you know the old player pianos, the things that play themselves? You put the paper roll in there and it holes in the roll, press the keys down. As it goes over the tracker bar using some sort of mechanical vacuum system, you're pumping that whole thing, right?
Rob Collie (01:23:36):
I've never seen one in person, but I know what you're talking about.
Bill Jelen (01:23:39):
They were cool, but the problem is all the songs were from the twenties. And when I became a teenager, I was more into rock and roll. And there was no one doing Led Zeppelin on player piano roll. And that just seemed like that was something that had to be corrected.
Rob Collie (01:23:53):
Terrible tragedy, yeah.
Bill Jelen (01:23:53):
Yes, right. So I would arrange the roll in Excel. I would get the sheet music, I would build an Excel file that had all of the data that needed to be punched in the role. And then I found a guy down in Richardson, Texas, that you would send him a data file and he had a machine that would actually punch the holes in the roll. But the deal was you had to get five, right. And what are you going to do with five copies of Stairway to Heaven? So I actually started a company that licensed that music and then would sell the extra roll. So I'd make one for myself and then sell the other four. And that company is Tickling Keys. And when I opened the website, this tiny little website, that was going to be the offshoot of the player piano, rock and roll player piano company, that's when... I didn't bother to reform another corporation. I was like, "Okay, this is the new division of Tickling Keys. People think it's a computer and that's fine. It's going to work fine."
Rob Collie (01:24:52):
And then that would've been the thing, right? You'd just be a billionaire today on your player piano rock and roll empire. But if it weren't for Napster, right? Stinking Napster, I mean, the teens all pirating your Tickling Keys player piano music. Kids in dorm rooms, they brought you down, man. So you also told me that, didn't you give one or get it signed by Bruce?
Bill Jelen (01:25:24):
I haven't gotten Bruce yet, I've gotten a lot of other people in the E Street Band. The big one was Meat Loaf. So I had a roll of Paradise by the Dashboard Light. And the very first time that I ever got to show one of these rolls to someone who was connected to the roll was: Meat Loaf was in town for a concert at Blossom Music Center up in Cleveland, but he did a charity softball game down in Akron, right. And after the game, I went up to the bus and I had two copies of the roll. And I showed it to him and he knew what it was.
Bill Jelen (01:25:50):
He knew what it was, because he even said, "Oh, this is great. I'm going to fire the band, we'll just put a player piano on stage." But he autographed it. And then he yells back to me, I'm walking back to the car, he yells back to me. He says, "Hey! Hey, it's Meat Loaf, two words. Look at the album." And on the player piano roll, I put meatloaf as a single word and somehow, I gave him one copy and someone on the bus said, "Hey, you spelled it wrong."
Rob Collie (01:26:13):
Wow. So you said he knew what it was immediately. So you're saying that he recognized it was a player piano roll. He didn't look at it and go, "Oh my God, Paradise by the Dashboard Light!"
Bill Jelen (01:26:26):
And you say, I think this is the world's only existing copy of a Meat Loaf tune on player piano. And that gets you in. I was at a dinner with a lot of the E Street Band about three tables away from me. And they had decided they weren't going to sign anything. But when I had a player piano roll, I said, this is if you want a player piano roll of a Bruce song. I got Roy Bittan, who's the piano player for Bruce, to sign that. And Max Weinberg, who's the drummer, he instantly knew. He says, "Ah, yeah, you're just X number of years too late." He knew it was 1922. They were really in their heyday. So it's kind of an interesting conversation piece and I've gotten a lot of, under the pretext of, "Hey, will you sign this player piano roll?" I've gotten to meet Mark Cohn from Walking in Memphis and Bruce Hornsby, a lot of the E Street Band, Nils Lofgren, who was with Neil Young, autographed Our House.
Rob Collie (01:27:13):
That's so cool. And what do these spreadsheets look like? I need to see one, I kind of envisioned originally that it was a bunch of columns formatted to the same width and you're coloring in the squares to make the dots.
Bill Jelen (01:27:25):
That would've been awesome.
Rob Collie (01:27:27):
But, it's not like that is it?
Bill Jelen (01:27:28):
So it was measure number, then beat within the measure, which note? So on a player piano, I think middle C is the 40th note or 44th note. I had kind of in my head that the middle C is this number and you type in the number and then how long it was held down for. And then I probably, I don't know, was it a pivot table or some really cool formulas to take that data and stretch it into whatever, then export from Excel to whatever binary format that the guy in Texas needed.
Rob Collie (01:27:58):
Yeah I can't stop thinking about this. And then if there's a rest in the music where no notes are being played, do you have blank rows in your spreadsheet, or?
Bill Jelen (01:28:11):
No, no. I think if you simply don't send instruction to... So it's a little hole punch, right? So you're telling it when to turn on and when to turn off. So if nothing's happening, I think that you just don't send anything at that time code.
Rob Collie (01:28:24):
I see. Okay. So it's each row in your spreadsheet is time coded as to when it happens.
Bill Jelen (01:28:28):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:28:29):
Okay. That makes sense. I'm really excited as kind of as a parting shot, as someone who, my profession, even though I use Excel certainly for lots of one off purposes in my day to day business life, professionally, we're in the BI space. And so Power BI is, that's our thing. We don't use Excel for BI purposes as a company. I think LAMBDA functions though, it's one of those unexplored frontiers, in a way, in terms of what it can do. This is one of those things where I'm actually wishing that I had a bit more time to just go screw around with a technology, and that's Excel LAMBDA functions. And I have a bit of a background with it.
Rob Collie (01:29:12):
I worked on an early sort of specification for this feature many years ago, and it wasn't my idea at the time. So it's not like I'm saying, "Oh, they did my thing." No, it was someone else's idea back then. And it's the same idea has been sticking around for a long time, it's just really hard to implement. But if you think about for a moment, a spreadsheet, like a single sheet, that does a lot of calculations, like an income statement type of forecast, it's got columns for month one, month two, month 24. And it's got a handful of variables that go in, like what's our attrition rate of losing customers? What's our rate of new customers per month? How much are we going to spend on marketing? How many employees are we going to add per month? Whatever, right?
Rob Collie (01:29:58):
And from these handful of variables, it generates a tremendous amount of intermediate data month to month and it ripples and ripples and ripples along to come up with a handful of outputs. Like, this is how much money this company would be worth if we executed on this plan. What's this internal rate of return? What's its multiple that we could sell it for? How many months until we're cash flow positive? How much money, what's the maximum spend, meaning how much funding do we need? There's a lot of final answers that come out of a spreadsheet like this that you can only to by generating hundreds, if not thousands, of intermediate cells that ultimately then condense down to these numbers, right? Okay. Now, if you want to play with different scenarios, like different sets of inputs, this sucks. What are you going to do? Make a million copies of this sheet and change the variables, or you're going to write some macro that changes the variables and then records the answers on a separate sheet and then goes and changes the inputs again and iterates through like that.
Rob Collie (01:31:03):
But with LAMBDA functions, as I understand it, if it's the same thing that I was originally, like I was a long time ago, part of planning something along these lines, you could take that whole worksheet that I just described and turn it into a new function, like equal my income forecaster function. And it takes four inputs and it generates three or four outputs. And now you just create a table of all your different inputs, all your different input scenarios. And then you've got a number of calculated columns sitting next to it that are just calls to this function, this custom function of yours and which are the outputs you want. And you just drag fill that thing down and it uses your spreadsheet, this giant spreadsheet on the other sheet as a function. That's intense. And I think that it's one of those things where until you've played with it a bit, you don't really understand its potential. It so reinvents some of the fundamental rules of spreadsheeting that you're going to find yourself able to perform a type of financial modeling analysis, which by the way, Power BI is not really the right tool for a lot of things like this. The type of scenario I just described is a very difficult thing to do in Power BI. Not that you can't do financial modeling and forecast in Power BI, but that particular kind of very iterative ripple forward through time calculation is hard to do in DAX. And so this might be something that the world has never seen in terms of what it's capable of doing. And it's going to end up creating types of business, believe it or not, that weren't possible.
Bill Jelen (01:32:40):
I think the power here is, give this to a million people who are in a hundred thousand different industries and just watch what happens.
Rob Collie (01:32:46):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's what I'm talking about.
Bill Jelen (01:32:47):
So people will come up with uses that no one ever imagined.
Rob Collie (01:32:51):
I'm really excited by that. And it's not often that something comes along where you can say that, think about the accessibility of this. Someone who can build one of those income statement type spreadsheets now has the power to do something exponentially more sophisticated and it's not hard, and the Python person could have done it all along, but it'd probably take them longer, even though they were good at Python. But most importantly, there are fewer Python people and they're not deeply embedded in the business in the way the Excel people are. So this is why we've got sort of this really fertile breeding ground for something, I don't know. I'm really eyebrow raised that this one's come to life. I had no idea it was coming. I'm not one of the Excel MVP insiders anymore so when it landed, I was just like, "Holy cow. Oh wow." I need to go make some time just to screw around with it.
Bill Jelen (01:33:43):
No, it's cool. The other one is the LET function, LET. L-E-T. Which is, Rob, when you talk about those sub columns, you build your formula and the tiny little columns, the sub columns, and then the final answer out there is the eighth column or whatever. When you start combining that all back into one formula, you find that you're using some of those intermediate results over and over and over again. And so your formula becomes 800 characters because you have to put the LEN of the TRIM of A1 over and over and over. The LET function just, you define that once and assign it into a variable, slap it into a variable right inside the formula, and then can reuse that again. Right and so, yeah, both of those together.
Rob Collie (01:34:22):
That's a lot like DAX variables, which they didn't have in the beginning. So you can perform that one calculation, in a way if you'd had LET, you wouldn't have needed IFERROR. But you still would like IFERROR, because it's even simpler. Yeah. There's so many things, there's so many places, even now when I'm writing an Excel formula where I'm like, "If this calculation less than zero, then zero. Otherwise-"
Bill Jelen (01:34:45):
The calculation. So now you're doing the calculation twice.
Rob Collie (01:34:50):
I just want to scream every time I encounter that, I just want a function that truncates it, floors it at zero. I do that all the time.
Bill Jelen (01:34:59):
So how do you do that in DAX? Is there a DAX solution to...
Rob Collie (01:35:02):
Instead of LET, it's VAR, like measure name equals, and then you say VAR, then you make a name, like My Variable equals, here's the calculation, and you can have a bunch of variables and you can say, VAR My Variable 2 equals, my tax rate equals this, right? Then you say, return, you type return. Then you write your regular DAX formula after that but you can plug in the variables above.
Bill Jelen (01:35:28):
Nice. Yeah. Same thing. That's the LET function right there.
Rob Collie (01:35:30):
It's sometimes a little funny in DAX, and by the way, you can even use variables as tables. You can have a filter function as a variable, which is pretty hot. However, you've got to be careful because these variables evaluate the raw filter context of the measure or whatever. And then if you use the variable deeper down in your function, in your formula, in a place where it would've had a modified filter context, it won't pick up the modified filter context because it's already pre-evaluated to whatever it was at the very beginning. So you got to be a little careful with it sometimes, but most of the time it's awesome.
Bill Jelen (01:36:03):
That's cool, that's cool. And when I download DAX Studio, will I...
Rob Collie (01:36:08):
Oh yeah. You'll be all over this. Yeah. You'll get them. Well, folks.
Thomas LaRock (01:36:12):
Oh my God. Is there a DAX TikTok?
Rob Collie (01:36:14):
DAX Studio TikTok? DAX TikTok?
Bill Jelen (01:36:17):
DAX TikTok, that's it.
Rob Collie (01:36:19):
All right. I'm filing the copyright now, DAX TikTok.
Thomas LaRock (01:36:24):
You own that hashtag.
Rob Collie (01:36:25):
Yeah. I own it. Yeah. We'll just say we own the hat. Just the pound sign. Like the Austin Powers joke-
Thomas LaRock (01:36:32):
I invented the pound sign.
Rob Collie (01:36:33):
He invented the question mark. He was prone to making outlandish claims, like he invented the question mark. You know, I haven't been wanting to have you on, Bill, but Tom's been insisting, he's like, "When are you going to get Bill?"
Bill Jelen (01:36:48):
I think you mentioned this to me before you recorded your first one. But in my head I'm like, "Oh, I should wait a little bit. So that way the show will develop into something."
Thomas LaRock (01:36:56):
Yeah. We're still waiting.
Rob Collie (01:37:00):
Maybe this is when we arrive.
Bill Jelen (01:37:02):
I don't think so. I really don't think this was it. But you know what, I don't give a shit. So...
Rob Collie (01:37:09):
That's so good.
Bill Jelen (01:37:14):
Thanks guys.
Rob Collie (01:37:15):
All right.
Announcer (01:37:16):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to Power Pivot Pro dot com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P, L-U-K-E-P at Power Pivot Pro dot com. Have a data day!
Power BI has altered the course of many people's lives for the better, and that is surely the case with our guest Jonathan Perl. Coming from a financial background, he was already well versed in the Business Intelligence tools of the past. But the Power Platform spoke volumes to Jon. So much so that he changed his entire career path in order to share his expertise with these tools with others (and make a few shekels while he's at it). His data journey is as unique as they come!
Episode Timeline:
- 1:55 - A LinkedIn message turns into an awesome friendship and professional relationship, Jon not only identifies but solves a problem in the Supply Chain, and Jon's new software product NOAH is born!
- 15:25 Jon's ability to extract useful data from the dirtiest garbage is amazing! Cut and Sold-sounds simple, it isn't so simple
- 30:00 Which backgrounds are the best makeup for C-suite executives
- 54:30 Rob's experience of an orthodox Shabbat observance at Jon's place was eye-opening...and what's next for Jon Perl?
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hey everyone. Today's guest is Jon Perl. JP we call him. JP's got a very interesting backstory. Jon has managed rock bands. He's worked for Hedge Funds. He started his own successful apparel company and ran it for a number of years before encountering Power BI, and deciding at that moment that data was a better business. So he sold his company in response to encountering Power BI, I'm not making this up. So now, in addition to slinging Power BI on a part-time, nearly full-time basis, he now also runs a software as a service startup in the supply chain and logistics industries fields, domains. Additionally, he's also one of the most interesting paradoxes I've ever met. As an adherent of the Orthodox Jewish faith, he spends a full day every week with no technology, and in the other six days more than makes up for it. Absolutely crushing it. No one navigates technology like this guy, he just takes a day off, one day a week just to rest. Really compelling figure. Fantastic conversation. I hope you enjoy it. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:10):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:15):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw data by P3 is data with a human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:34):
Welcome to the show. JP, Jon Perl. How are you, man?
Jon Perl (00:01:40):
I'm great. Thanks for having me. Nice to see you, Tom. Nice to see you, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:01:44):
It is a pleasure to have you. I'm glad that we got this queued up. We pulled this together pretty quickly too, so go us. Agile. That's right. We don't do waterfall podcasting here, we run the agile method. So Jon, it's probably three years ago, two and a half maybe.
Jon Perl (00:02:04):
Something like that.
Rob Collie (00:02:05):
I got what is definitely my absolute favorite LinkedIn message of all time.
Jon Perl (00:02:11):
Thanks.
Rob Collie (00:02:12):
And it just came in, out of the blue, and it was so heartfelt. It didn't have an agenda other than just being human. It was just such a gift.
Jon Perl (00:02:25):
Wow. Thank you so much.
Rob Collie (00:02:27):
It was from this guy named Kevin. I'm just kidding. It was from you. Do you remember sort of the gist of what you said in that note?
Jon Perl (00:02:40):
Yeah. More or less. I remember I just read your book. I was super jazzed up about Power BI and this whole new power way of [inaudible 00:02:51] data that I had struggled with before. You tried to build all kinds of little duct tape type connectors with different tools, and then to finally see it come together in such a beautiful way. I was obsessed. Yeah, I was in business at the time. I had a company called Andy & Evan. I was in the clothing manufacturing business. I did it for about 10 years until I hit a breaking point in the [inaudible 00:03:15] business, slinging onesies.
Rob Collie (00:03:16):
Yeah. I mean, you started with the signature product, right? It was like an Oxford onesie, or something like that. What was it?
Jon Perl (00:03:26):
Yeah. We called it the Shirtsie. I was laid off from a Hedge Fund in 2009. I had nothing to do. I started a business with my friend from Synagogue. "Hey, you're unemployed. I'm unemployed. There's no jobs in finance. Let's go sell shirts. Let's go sell custom shirts." Custom shirts are like the worst business in the world, going, selling three shirts at a time, measuring people, it's humiliating. They don't fit. Then my first son was born and I said, "Hey, this is not working out anyway. Why don't we have some fun." I made him a dress shirt with a onesie, snuck a snap closure in the bottom, and we said, "Hey, we have something here." We had $3,000 in the bank. We took $3,000 and showed it at a trade show. Literally went for broke.
Jon Perl (00:04:15):
Out of the gate, had some traction, built this business over 10 years, selling to department stores and discounters and really kind of working my way up the chain, or down the chain, however, you look at it, ultimately selling to master retailers and kind of hitting a breaking point, running a small business that's so capital driven and with no investor backing and high cost of capital.
Jon Perl (00:04:37):
I was having a really hard time in the business and one of my twice a year, number crunching marathons to plan what we were going to buy for the season. It would always fall out on a Jewish holiday. That Jewish holiday I was in Portugal with my family, having a really nice time. Right afterwards, okay, partner dumps all the buying on me, in the middle of the holiday. I'm on vacation. I was up all night, three nights in a row and slept during the day when my family went and toured in Portugal. I said, "You know what, enough of this." I had your book with me.
Jon Perl (00:05:07):
Then on the holiday days where we don't carry a phone, we don't turn on lights, we read, and we hang with our family, whatever, I had your book. I was like, wow. I just spent a week doing this crap. I'm done with selling Shirtsies. I'm going into the data business. I used the technology, the power query and Power BI to create a pitch deck for my company to go and sell it, and met with as many people as would meet with me. Got lucky. Six months later was able to close a deal, sell the business. From then on, it was like a new career, a new beginning. I reached out to you to say, "Hey, what's up? Who is this guy? This guy just changed everything."
Rob Collie (00:05:49):
First of all, I love the idea of a Jewish holiday that's dedicated to reading my book. Can we invent something?
Jon Perl (00:06:00):
[inaudible 00:06:00] into the holiday, but you know, there's some.
Thomas LaRock (00:06:02):
There are a lot of them you, so it's possible. It could already exist.
Jon Perl (00:06:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:08):
You just have to discover it, I suppose. The other thing is, I just love the random stories. It's so typical really. It's a story old as time. Get laid off from a hedge fund, start an apparel business making dress shirt onesies for babies, and then discover power BI and go, oh, I need to sell this business and go do something like this. I mean, how many people share that story? It's probably like two, 3% of the population. Every story is so unique. I love these semi random, zigzag paths. They're just, I think one of the most fascinating and valuable things to me. I don't really know what it is about them that speaks to me, but they really do. Let's complete the picture. Pre hedge fun. Anything interesting in the pre hedge fun days?
Jon Perl (00:07:00):
Managed a band. Toured around the world with the Jewish rock band. That's a whole another story for another time.
Rob Collie (00:07:08):
I didn't know that, I don't think. Maybe you told me once. I have to hear things like five, six times before they really get cemented.
Jon Perl (00:07:15):
I tell you what was very really interesting, post that story. The part that I skipped was that process of trying to sell my business. I went to bigger companies. I was selling to Costco. I went to bigger Costco vendors. It kind of went up the chain to some bigger folks who were doing business orders of magnitude larger than mine. One or two orders of magnitude bigger than my business. What I saw was just fascinating. They didn't have the tools that I had. They had floors full of people, crunching numbers and exporting and uploading and emailing. They were clueless to all this stuff. That's where I really saw the opportunity.
Jon Perl (00:07:57):
Like hey, I have this little business operating on such a small scale, but doing the same type of business, more or less. I'm communicating, I'm EDI with trading partners, and sending messages in and out of my ERP. I want to pull all kinds of data from my ERP and measure certain things and watch certain things and trigger certain things. The business is really all the same, regardless of the scale of it, was the same business. I had job offers, when I met with all these people that said, "Who made the charts? You made these charts? These are good charts. Think he's a chart guy. Our CFO just left. Do you want to be CFO?" Literally, I had CFO offers, COO offers, and I chose this path of being independent and start a software business and continue to do consulting in this discipline. Keep my tools sharp.
Rob Collie (00:08:48):
Yeah. Tell us about the software business, because when you wrote the mail to me, you wrote the LinkedIn message, I don't think you had the software idea yet. You were data BI, considering maybe some of those jobs that you were being offered, but considering starting a consulting outfit, essentially. But then somewhere along the way, aha, more opportunity. You were able to spot something else. Tell us a little bit about that software pivot.
Jon Perl (00:09:13):
Sure. One of my consulting clients at the time, his name is Jackie Deed. He's become my business partner now. Very soon after I closed on this, on the sale, I was able to leave my business without any obligations. Couple months into our consulting arrangement for his company, I was consulting for a few people at the time, and I loved that. I loved seeing different companies, how they operate. A client of mine at the time was a cannabis packaging company, like also that just fascinating business. Jack has an exclusive distributor of Little Tike's baby gear. Again, trading business, bringing in containers, registering your inventory, sending big tickets to the warehouse. It is a comfortable thing. Gave me an offer I couldn't refuse to come and consult for him for this business. Helped with the operations.
Jon Perl (00:10:02):
A couple months into it, I said to Jack, I said, "There's another void in this business. It's more of an interactive thing. It's not just like a data gathering thing, but it's a data collection problem. There's this black hole in the land of ERP where you order goods from presumably supplier, perhaps are overseas or some other locale. They have a different system. They're a different organization, and then you receive goods from them at a later point in time. Everything that happens in between there, between the time you purchase goods and the time you receive goods is kind of a black hole. It's tracked with the email, Excel, text messages. Where's my goods, which container, what's happening, where is everything. I noticed that was a big problem. Even at these big companies that I was seeing. They have entire departments full of people, walls of file cabinets, full of customs files, bills of lading and printed out emails, and hundreds of millions of dollars a year of it. They just hire more people and make more documents and there's got to be a better way."
Rob Collie (00:10:56):
What's the problem in that black hole? Is it that you don't know if your goods are actually on the way? If they're going to be on time? Is that the problem with the blind spot?
Jon Perl (00:11:05):
The blind spot is that purchases that you make from another vendor turn into shipments in from that other vendor, and the purchases and the inbound shipments almost never match. There's a mixing bowl that happens. Some of the shipments go, some of the PO goes early. Some of it goes late. Some of it goes here. Some of it goes there. Some of it's consolidated with other POs or other POs from other vendors, and they go in the same container. It's a big stew. We call it a [chillant 00:11:33].
Rob Collie (00:11:32):
Yeah. It does sound like a nightmare.
Jon Perl (00:11:38):
Yeah. It's an accounting nightmare. It's a logistics nightmare. So we said, Hey, what if we make a cloud platform where we take your purchasing data, we make it available to your vendors, log into the same platform. We provide that mixing bowl of creating the shipments, and so doing, we're now in charge of all of the invoicing, all of the packing lists, all of the commercial documentation. We're not reliant on someone looking at crazy Chinese packing. I mean, nothing wrong, I have no issues with China. I love China, but sometimes their packing lists are a little funny. You don't have to deal with that anymore. There's a lot of savings in there. There's a lot of time savings, a lot of dollar savings. There's a lot of stakes made, that just things just slip through, and just providing that turnaround of what you purchased into what's ultimately going to come. The costing of it, the landing costing, the process of it is a big void.
Rob Collie (00:12:31):
Just to underline, Jon loves China. One time I was trying to get ahold of you. I forget what I was trying to get ahold of you about. I didn't hear from you for a couple days. When I eventually got ahold of you, you're like, "Yeah, you know, I was over in Hong Kong the last few days at some cannabis packaging trade show, or something like that." I was like, "What? How does? What?" It doesn't have anything to do with anything we've ever talked about.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:56):
He was on vacation.
Jon Perl (00:12:58):
Yeah. Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:13:02):
It sounded like you'd decided to go 24 hours before you got on the plane too. It was just something you do. I went to the store to get some eggs, and I went to Hong Kong.
Jon Perl (00:13:12):
No. I went to the store to get eggs. And now I'm at Burning Man. How did we get here?
Rob Collie (00:13:22):
Exactly. I no longer wish to be called Jon. I am now Desert Flower.
Jon Perl (00:13:33):
I spent a lot of time overseas. Over that 10 year period, I was probably in China maybe 40 plus times. I had my own people there. I had an office there. I had staff there. I had people producing packing lists. Collecting data from the factories.
Rob Collie (00:13:48):
Wow. All right. So, that's what the software product Noah is, that you're working on.
Jon Perl (00:13:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:55):
You're not just working on it, you've got some deployments now?
Jon Perl (00:13:58):
Yeah. We made a beta release just before the end of the year. We have three customers in beta right now. We decided to release the product with a connector to QuickBooks, because it was kind of low hanging fruit for connection, and also our ability to get clients, it's very ubiquitous. We thought it was a good investment because there's ubiquitous, there's a big potential market for it. It's really exciting times. You don't cover a lot of things and you start pulling the sheets off, and people start using it and trying to scale. But yeah, that's where we're at.
Rob Collie (00:14:25):
That's something I've told you before that I think is, it's not the remarkable thing about you, but it's this weird detail that stands out to me amongst the rest, which is, as a side note from one time I was visiting a client many years ago and I was sitting in this like oak paneled boardroom. This was a retailer that did, I mean, I don't know, this is at least like a hundred million dollar a year retailer, at least probably more than that. They have hundreds of stores. I have no idea what the revenues are like, but this is not a small outfit. So the president of this giant retailer is sitting in the boardroom and we're all working on various things. It's all Power BI stuff and everything. At one point I kind of like looked up, I was working with one guy and I looked up to ask the president a question.
Rob Collie (00:15:09):
And I said, "Hey Jeff, I got a question for you." He's staring at his computer screen. He goes, "Hold on just a second here, Rob, I'm debugging this ODBC driver on this server." I was like, did that actually just happen?
Jon Perl (00:15:25):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:15:25):
You, you cannot be kept out. I can invent the most byzantine, horrible, database schema underneath some sort of line of business application. I could walk away and say, that is as good as RSA encryption. It is not crackable. No one's ever getting that data out of there, in any form useful. Then Jon comes along and goes, Hmm, let me see what I can do. You mentioned so casually sometimes, "Well you know, I went and I looked at the schema under it. It's bad, but no big deal." The next thing you know, you've got like working dashboards. I'm just like, wow.
Jon Perl (00:16:12):
Thanks. I think we spoke about, one really interesting one. I did some work for a company in Columbia, South America. A large plastics manufacturer. They have some ancient, ancient, Fox pro system. I was not able to get a gateway connection going on it. I was not able to really get any kind of PM to speak of. I wasn't getting in, so I had them do all these exports for me, all these CSV exports. Okay, just as much as it'll let you do. Items, as much as it'll let you do, just as much data as you can. Okay. Sales, like sure. Accounting, yes very good. Deleted sales and not deleted, open, closed, just give me everything. They'd send it and all the headers are in Spanish.
Jon Perl (00:17:00):
You have to spend some time with someone just to even understand what the heck you're looking at. Fantastic. Of course, DC sales, Mr. Jonathan. What do I say, what you want to know about? Okay. Great. What about these other like 60 things that I don't know are in Spanish. Well then they have business in the Columbia peso and business in the U.S. dollar and tremendous inflation in the Columbian peso, or was it Columbian dollar? Whatever the case is, tremendous inflation. They wanted to know what their business has done over the last 10, 20 years of data that they sent me, but corrective, adjusted, for inflation with the U.S. dollar, so they could look at dollars and other currencies together being equal. So yeah, I've had some pretty wacky ones.
Rob Collie (00:17:48):
Yeah. I think there's another business potential in your future where you're just like this shadowy figure on the world IT scene. You just go by some sort of moniker, they call you The Decoder, or Rosetta or something. Right. All you do is come in and consult to software teams that are trying to crack someone else's database schema. You're paid through a Swiss account, or you're paid in Bitcoin.
Jon Perl (00:18:19):
I love it. I love it. Tell me more.
Rob Collie (00:18:22):
I'm serious. You have to have both, right. You have to have the belief that you can do it, and then the ability to do it. If you lack either of those, you can't do it, but you believe. You're just insane. You believe that you can do it and then you go and you do it over and over again. I'm just like, I don't know, you should go after SAP next.
Jon Perl (00:18:45):
That'd be a good one. Let's do it together.
Thomas LaRock (00:18:47):
Rob, one of the first things he said, his comment was, just flat out, I'm going into the data business, right? Who says that? Seriously, who says that? Nobody goes to school to be a data janitor. Right. We all end up somewhere and he's one of the rare few people are like, oh no, I'm totally, I'm just going to go do this. And then he does it.
Rob Collie (00:19:11):
Yeah. I agree. That was something that was so validating about the message you sent me on LinkedIn, was that you had gone and done things at that point in your life that I could probably never do. You'd started a freaking apparel brand.
Jon Perl (00:19:25):
I wouldn't recommend it.
Rob Collie (00:19:28):
I know. Your horror stories sound... They're chilling. But I mean, it's not like the early years of this business were nice and smooth either. So we have some common ground though. We kind of bonded a little bit over the nightmare, whitewater section of growing a business. But you had done that and it was kind of like, you'd now seen so much value and so much on opportunity in the same things that I had been seeing, that you were re vectoring, embedding your career on it. It's not like I could have been more convinced of what I was doing. I was pretty convinced, but at the same time, even when you're locked in on something like I have been, it still feels really good when someone from a completely different, seemingly universe, goes oh my God, and jumps over and jumps into your lane. Of course, you were there for like five minutes and then you were onto software, but you're still slinging a lot of Power BI these days. You haven't gotten rusty.
Jon Perl (00:20:24):
Thanks. I try to keep current. You know how it goes. It always starts with a very simple problem. How come we can't know this and this and that. I want to know this. I bet nobody can tell it to me. As you peel back the onion and the layers and all these things, what they're asking presents a hundred different other things that are constructive to address, expensive sometimes, when you start to dive into this. I never look at the front end of the system. I don't even know how it works. I'm just looking at the data, the database. I have a totally different perspective, totally different set of glasses, looking at things differently than the business owners are.
Rob Collie (00:21:05):
Yeah. A lot of businesses are like this, but you're pretty deeply immersed in the fashion and apparel business in New York City. You took me to visit a couple of those outfits, and this is a business, an industry with a lot of tradition behind it. It's got a very long history. Looking back, I could kind of feel that history walking through those offices. I didn't bother to check with you, but it was believable that the spaces we were standing in, those spaces have been used for that industry since the early 1900s maybe. By the way, since then, I don't know if you've watched the show, but since then, my wife and I have burned through the multiple seasons of the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Have you seen that?
Jon Perl (00:21:53):
That's great. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:54):
What is it? It's cut to sell, the acronym that I kept seeing in a bunch of your reports that I had to ask you about. What was it?
Jon Perl (00:22:01):
Cut and sold.
Rob Collie (00:22:01):
Cut and sold. Right.
Jon Perl (00:22:04):
Cut and sold. Yeah. They want to cut and sold. It's very simple. How many did I make, and how many did I sell? How many did I make, how many did I sell? That's it.
Rob Collie (00:22:15):
Yeah. What's the actor who plays the father-in-law on Marvelous Mrs. Maisel? He was also in A Few Good Men.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:21):
Kevin Pollak.
Rob Collie (00:22:22):
Kevin Pollak, right. I could see his character in that show saying that.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:27):
So good.
Jon Perl (00:22:31):
Right, exactly. To them it's very simple, but in practice, to cut and sold. So cut is a whole universe of purchased goods and the resulting shipments from those purchased goods. How many of them did we receive of that during this period, whatever, and sold, you're looking at the entire volume of sales orders, invoiced goods, netting out the two, and it's cut and sold. These syllables like a universe data.
Rob Collie (00:22:58):
Yeah. I think that's a fascinating place to bring modern up tempo BI. On the one hand, that culture, the people who say it's very simple, it's how many did I cut and how many did I sell? You can say this for sure. They are grounded in reality. This is a culture that is not going to lose sight of the important stuff. That sounds like it's a gimme, but I think a lot of business cultures can lose sight of that sort of on the ground reality. Okay. So you got that going for you in that culture, but the deep tradition I would expect as an outsider for it to be a little suspicious of new ways of doing things.
Jon Perl (00:23:44):
Oh, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:23:45):
Maybe even more than average. So you get this interesting tension. You're constantly, probably, appealing to that really grounded nature, like saying, look, that metric sucks and here's why, right?
Jon Perl (00:24:00):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:24:00):
That metric doesn't actually predict margin or profit. Right. It's the bad thing to chase. I could imagine getting that message across, probably easier than in most cultures, but then saying, oh, and by the way, we're going to bring in this new system. No.
Jon Perl (00:24:20):
Exactly. Yeah. The [inaudible 00:24:22] is key and it's a very easy to overlook, because when you come in, you're thinking, I could light up the whole room here with data. I could show everybody something. I could do so much. Then it's very easy, especially when you're doing it as a one man show, which I'll sometimes do, to get lost in it yourself. You need to constantly be releasing the deliverables to the customer and showing them how to use it, ensuring that they're consuming it, giving them the right data to consume and measuring their engagement. It's so easy to overlook that.
Rob Collie (00:25:00):
That I think is such an important point. I don't think we've ever talked about this on this show, and so we should. What you just said. So first of all, as the geeked out data nerd in a particular pond, it's so easy to sort of go off in a corner of your own and just have a party with the data. Here's my new imaginary friend, in fact, table three. And in fact, table three is going to have a conversation and we're going to talk.
Jon Perl (00:25:29):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:25:32):
We're going to write some just badass forms. We're going to make all these, it's starting to sound like Bob Ross, painting in his studio. We're going to make a happy little formula over here.
Jon Perl (00:25:40):
You become a hoarder. I'm going to make some reports one day. I got that because one day I'm going to make reports. I'm going to be great. You're going to see.
Rob Collie (00:25:47):
Yeah. Then there's the other danger. You invent something that you think is awesome, like this awesome report. Then you just, tada, right? And you walk away, just kind of brushing off your hands, like it's miller time, and you leave your audience very confused, frustrated, maybe even resentful, because what you gave them, it turns out doesn't actually help them.
Jon Perl (00:26:13):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:13):
I have done this. It's kind of like one of those diseases that you're never fully recovered from. You're always having to be wary and on guard for it. This is where one of our principles comes from is, think backwards from the actions that the user of the dashboard, the user of the report, think backwards from the actions that they could take to improve the business and then build something to facilitate that. Don't go build a report.
Rob Collie (00:26:45):
If you say that I'm going to go show, take the data and essentially go forward from the data to the report, rather than backwards from not just the person, but like what their workflow could be, what they could do to improve the business, you end up in vast different places.
Jon Perl (00:27:03):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:27:05):
One of them is really useful, and one of them can actually hurt your reputation with that customer base in a way that you can't recover from, because what you've done is you've shown them, you've confirmed for them their suspicions, that this newfangled system was shit. It could have not been shit, but we happened to build them shit. Now we thought it was cool.
Jon Perl (00:27:28):
Well, everybody wants to say that it's shit. I mean, there's always going to be a naysayer. There's always going to be a shit sayer in the room.
Rob Collie (00:27:34):
A shit sayer.
Thomas LaRock (00:27:36):
It's like suit sayer.
Rob Collie (00:27:37):
Yeah. But with shit in it.
Jon Perl (00:27:42):
Don't send this link to my rabbi.
Rob Collie (00:27:46):
His rabbi's like, he's using the sacred words. He's sharing them publicly.
Jon Perl (00:27:54):
The first thing that this shit sayer is going to say, the first thing they're going to do is they're going to compare your totals to their totals. Doesn't match my report. It's the first thing they're going to do. You need to preempt that. If a part of the discovery process before you touch this is like, first show me your report, and then if you're lucky, maybe you can get some sequel behind the report and recreate it in [inaudible 00:28:19] and then you like, do some, here you go.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:23):
Maybe decode a little sequel schema here and there. If we're lucky.
Jon Perl (00:28:28):
Exactly. Show me what you want, I'll give you a better way to get it. That's the best way to start with the customer of Power BI, I find. The other barrier to engagement that I've seen is just understanding this new way of looking at data that only lives before a folder on a web page, and understanding the limitations of that. Better than understanding the limitations of it, using that. If you can't see it before the fold, it doesn't belong there. Look higher level. Also like, oh well, can I export it to Excel? Well, I need to see it in Excel. There's that guy. Okay, great. You have to also preempt that guy by having make sure that your data model has the measures, the right way for the totals, because when he goes into Excel, there's that bug that they never fixed, it's not going to make the totals. You know what I'm about.
Rob Collie (00:29:11):
Yeah. It's those damn humans. There's like a mad scientist off the rails parable here, or something like, if only we could get the humans out of the picture.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:26):
Rob, in your professional opinion, would you agree that Jon is someone that has the data gene?
Rob Collie (00:29:33):
Oh my God. I think he might have gotten two copies. He's one of those genetic freaks, like Jamie Lee Curtis. He got two. He got two data genes.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:48):
Jamie Lee Curtis of data.
Jon Perl (00:29:50):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:29:51):
Okay.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:51):
Wow. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.
Rob Collie (00:30:01):
Well, it's one of those things that leaves you pondering. Yeah. That's what we do here.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:07):
I wanted to ask real quick, because you had mentioned, you got offers of being a CFO, simply because you started using Power BI.
Jon Perl (00:30:18):
I also have a bunch of accounting knowledge behind that. I worked at a hedge fund underwriting asset based loans. I know how to analyze financial statements. I have strong financial background. That's what I did at my company. I set up the systems and hired people to work with them, and was very hands on. I mean, started a business from the ground up. There was no, I didn't go into some place where there was employees. I did the work and then I had to hire other people and show them how to make a process and figure out what I want from them. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:46):
Okay. I wanted some clarification because I couldn't believe that somebody said, "Hey, this guy does Excel, put him in charge of everything financial." But I've heard stranger things. My daughter's going into accounting, or she has an interest in accounting. It always pleases me when I hear somebody with a little bit of accounting knowledge and some practical knowledge say of Excel and Power BI, and how it can take them places I think farther and faster.
Rob Collie (00:31:14):
I mean, let me be clear. Not just is she interested in accounting, she's interested in forensic accounting.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:19):
Yeah.
Jon Perl (00:31:20):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:31:21):
Jon knows some people in that world. We can talk about that maybe backstage or onstage, I don't care. I don't want to put you on the spot.
Jon Perl (00:31:28):
Accounting's the best business background, period. I mean in my opinion, it's like it's the basis for everything. After learning accounting, until you practice it, I don't mean practice it by working for a firm, practice it by live it. What is a balance sheet? Live your balance sheet. Oh no, I have no money at the bank, but I had tons of inventory, quick. Really understand what a balance sheet like means. I learned all that in the school of hard knocks and was fortunate to have opportunities in that.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:00):
That's great.
Rob Collie (00:32:00):
You know, at the end of the movie Cocktail, Tom Cruise comes back. I think Michael Caine is the other. I think it's Tom Cruise and Michael Caine. I could be wrong.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:08):
But I think you are. I don't think it's Michael Caine. It's the other guy.
Rob Collie (00:32:12):
Okay. Well, I don't know. Anyway, there's like the older mentor guy, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:32:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:32:16):
And Tom Cruise returns to him at the end of the movie, and what Tom sees is just massive success. The guy's living on a yacht, his bar has gone like a city block in size or whatever. It's been a long time since I've seen the movie. Tom is like, oh, he is just wowed. His mentor says, they're sitting alone now on the yacht at the end of the movie, and the mentor says, "Yeah, it's all going down though. I'm penniless. I'm bankrupt." And Tom's like, "What?" He's like, "I was good at bartending. I knew how to run a bar. I knew how to do that, but I was terrible at business." I don't think I even watched the whole movie.
Rob Collie (00:32:51):
I think I just remember seeing the end and it was like, 12 year old me or 13, 14 year old me, whatever, when I saw it. It just seemed like some sort of movie cliche. Of course they had to give an explanation, or something like that. Then over time I started thinking of it as more like, okay, yeah, you can be bad at business, but it's simple. How many did I cut, and how many did I sell? Right. If you're making margin on everything that you're doing and you're bringing money in, how can you go out of business? It turns out, very easily.
Jon Perl (00:33:23):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:33:23):
If you measure things based on sort of those simple, easy to see caveman metrics, you can miss an absolute crisis of timing coming for you, I've been told.
Jon Perl (00:33:38):
Yes and no. The guy sitting in the CFO, I introduced you to an old school garment CEO. You saw. There were dozens and dozens of people, high level people. There were people in that office that came out of McKenzie and that came out of PWC, and there's like high level people in there. Well, what's he doing? He's looking at there was a little bit, okay, the total of this. He has it scratched out on a pad and he's got the total of that from last week. Looking at the two. I'm like, these two sticky notes, how come these are different? How come blah, blah, blah, but realizing a lot more now, almost three years into this pursuit of data, as the business, is that you can't underestimate the doing business part. The data is just the tools. Just because you're really good at working the tools, you could be amazing at working the tools, the best tool worker, that doesn't make you a business person necessarily. You have to understand where they're coming from. They're asking the questions that they're asking because they're trying to be protective of their balance sheet. Make sure this business lasts another generation.
Rob Collie (00:34:45):
Yeah. I was just taking the long way around to saying that your statement that accounting is probably the best business background. I mean, I would've just been so stinking, dismissive of a statement like that four years ago.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:00):
Really?
Rob Collie (00:35:01):
Oh yeah, totally.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:03):
I was going to question it, but only because I thought, economics. I think for people that did double major in economics and math, that I went to school with, I thought those were the people that were essentially going to run businesses. Right.
Rob Collie (00:35:16):
I'm still going to be dismissive of the economics people.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:20):
But no, these are the people I look back that I went to school with. I'm like heads on shoulders. They had everything that you need to do to run a business. If they were a good leader, that was somebody that could go and execute and do the proper analysis on stuff. Accounting, I've come to realize, I think so much more so than say, if you went to school for marketing. Okay. And I work in marketing and I don't want to be dismissive of it in any way. I think if you're looking for your next CEO, I bet on average the CFO has the edge over the CMO.
Rob Collie (00:35:53):
Oh yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:53):
Right? I just do. So when I think about, who are the CEOs, who are the leaders, and what really is their background? I think it comes from two areas. One is sales and the other is accounting. Finance.
Rob Collie (00:36:05):
In another show that we've recently recorded, we talked about how, for example, the CIO as a position, has exposure to basically the entire enterprise.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:17):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:36:17):
And CFO, they only have exposure to an entire enterprise in the sense of money in, money out, which is basically, again, pretty damn comprehensive. I could certainly imagine by comparison the CMO job, being a little bit more tunnel vision. You don't have to be quite as big picture. I think anything that is forced to be big picture, is going to be fundamentally a more complete background. As you say, it still takes all kinds. I mean, we still need all these things, but if you were going to be an entrepreneur starting your own thing, to have a background that's more like a CFO and less like a CMO, it's probably a good thing.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:36:59):
I've learned the hard way. The analogy I guess I would use is, I just thought of an engine as Hey, you need fuel and you need fire. Right. Let's keep the fuel line unclogged. Let's keep the spark plugs sparking. Even just to take the timing metaphor, like if you're the cylinders aren't firing in the right sequence, you can rattle that car apart and you end up with air gaps in the gas line that you didn't expect and all that kind of stuff. If the engine stops, it stops. I have a whole, a much, much, much deeper appreciation of a statement like, accounting is the best background, than I had before I traversed this path.
Jon Perl (00:37:37):
I think so. I wish I'd studied accounting in school. I didn't study accounting in school. I studied finance, which is similar. It's math based. I wish I'd studied more accounting. I wish I'd gone for a CPA and done that. My first job out of college, after my stint managing dance, which I did through college, but my first job working for a hedge fund, I remember I got like a week in. I'm working with this guy who, I mean I guarantee you, he did not study math in college or economics or anything like that. This guy was partying in college. He comes down and he's like, "Okay, we're issuing a term note to this and this client. They have an asset based facility. We're issuing them a term note now for our 1.75 million. They're giving us a building, it's worth 3 million. We're making it. Who knows how to... Perl, you just came out of school. Right? How do you do the amortization on a term note?"
Jon Perl (00:38:30):
He was originating this business. He was principle riskee in this 1.75 million dollars that was going out. He doesn't need to know how to calculate the amortization on a term note, It was very illuminating to me, coming out of school, and saying like, "Okay yeah, I know all the formulas. I know how to calculate anything." I had my textbook and all this stuff, and I was like, wait a second. Look where they are. They don't know how to do this stuff. There's obviously like a lot more to it.
Rob Collie (00:38:59):
Michael Lewis' first book, before Moneyball, before The Big Short. His very first book was called Liar's Poker. It was about his days at Solomon Brothers. He tells the story about at their orientation, or indoctrination, retreat camp or whatever, where they're attending classes all day long. He divided the room into clans, in his description. There was like the frat boys in the back. All they did was like hoot and holler and bang on the desk every time someone said something about, we're going to go out there and conquer. We're going to make fat coin. They just go bananas in the back of the room. I know which of the clans from that class, the person you're talking about came from.
Jon Perl (00:39:52):
He had memorabilia from the movie Animal House on his wall.
Rob Collie (00:39:54):
Yep. There you go. Thank you for not doing anything that swayed me from my cliche.
Jon Perl (00:40:03):
Yeah. I can't make that up. Constantly using [inaudible 00:40:11].
Rob Collie (00:40:11):
When he says, was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor. He might not even know that it's irony.
Jon Perl (00:40:20):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:40:21):
But drives a Lamborghini.
Jon Perl (00:40:24):
Yeah. And there's time to be set for both. I mean, one can't have it without the other, vice versa.
Rob Collie (00:40:28):
I completely agree. My adult life has just been sort of like a journey in recalibrating what's valuable. Some things that I thought were valuable, not so much, not as much as I thought, and from other things that were, that I was dismissive of and, nope. The real world can't be wrong. You might want certain things to be valuable or more valuable than others, but if the market is just constantly telling you otherwise, you're a fool to ignore that. You've got to come around. I think that's kind of a beautiful thing in the end, but it was hard one lessons.
Jon Perl (00:41:05):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:06):
What do you think the coolest thing, to the extent that you can tell us, maybe you can obfuscate it, but what's sort of like the coolest thing you've ever either done or found with Power BI?
Jon Perl (00:41:19):
That's a good question. I had a client once, I was operating a division of a family business. They operated one division and the parent operated the company. Okay, this is your corner. You're going to operate this part of the business. I can't get more specific than that. The client had come to me saying, "Hey, we don't have tools to measure these things that I want to measure about my business. I think we're really on target for this." If you look at it that way or whatever, asked me to make some data models or reports, and I did, it was a tremendous amount of work. The result of it was that their assumptions were wrong and the business was doing horribly.
Jon Perl (00:42:00):
They had brought me in to help them prove their point and say, "Hey, this is why we're in business. Let's show like our performance." We went to measure the performance. The performance wasn't so good, or let's say not good, but different than the client expected. That was one of the more interesting things that I found, because a lot of this is, as we said, it's a personal thing of dealing with the people who are consuming the data, and why they're consuming the data. That put me in a very compromised position. I could take it out on the data guy, obviously at first. No, can't be, no way, ah, no way. It is. Maybe we got to change some things. That also put things into perspective.
Rob Collie (00:42:49):
How did that work out? Did they come around to believing you?
Jon Perl (00:42:52):
No. They definitely believed me that they had to change some things about the way they operate their business, the things that they invest in as a business, the kind of inventory that they're willing to invest in and hold. As a result of the measurement of the performance, it's a balance sheet, you're taking cash and you're turning it into garments, as it were. Then you want to turn those garments back into more cash than you started with. That's an investment. The money sits in those garments for a certain amount of time. You want to measure your return on that money and the velocity of the turn of that money. I was able to work with them to better their forecasting and better their understanding of their own business and where to focus.
Rob Collie (00:43:31):
I think this is something we'll all just agree on. I'm going to say it anyway. I think in that story, the social engineering, the navigation that you had to do of the social framework in that situation, was far more difficult and more valuable and more rare than the ability to produce the reports that told the truth. It's another one of those, oh yeah, this is knowledge that I've acquired in the last 10 years. It's another one of those rebalancing of what's valuable. I have a similar story where we were hired by a very, very, very large liquor manufacturer. One of the biggest. They wanted us to tell them the impact of their gift program that they run at the holidays every year. So you've seen these right. There's a bottle of liquor and a box with like a flask or a couple of glasses or something like that.
Rob Collie (00:44:25):
I never knew this, because I never really paid attention. But, those gift boxes are usually exactly the same price as just a bare bottle by itself. The same price. The gifts that are in those boxes are very expensive on a per unit basis. Sometimes like $6 a unit in cost for the gift, because it's a nice glass, it's a nice flask or whatever. And so, margin wise, on a unit basis, these liquor companies are giving up well over 50% of their normal margin.
Jon Perl (00:44:58):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:44:58):
On these things. Now of course, they sell them like crazy to a tremendous volume. The old story, we make it up on volume. Okay. So we were hired, they didn't tell us what their intent was, but they just wanted, they said essentially like, okay, you want to be told the truth, right? Yep. Totally tell us the truth. Give it to us straight. We went and looked at it and saw very conclusively that this was killing them. Just destroying them. The amount of lift they were getting from offering the package was, there was lift. They were selling more units as a result of doing this, but not nearly enough, not two X. They were going to get the same volume of lift, most of that lift was just seasonal. They were going to get it anyway. We were done with this. It didn't take us very long to come up with this result. We even kind of had to sit on it a little while to make it look like it was harder than it was. We don't do that at P3, but we did that at my last company, when I wasn't in charge. That's one of the reasons why I'm not there anymore. Started a different thing. Soon as they got it, they fired us, because I guess they had, it was the same thing, right. They'd hired us to prove that it was working. It's been a long time.
Jon Perl (00:46:22):
Well, it could have been both, that it was working and you couldn't measure it.
Rob Collie (00:46:25):
It's sort of the epilogue to the story. I was at Target before the holidays, and I didn't go down the liquor aisle. I was down some other aisle. On the end cap of one of the aisles at the back of the store, there they are, the gift packs of this same brand. And it has the nice gift in it. I'm like, oh my God. I look at the price, and then I just dashed across the store. I left my wife. I said, "I'll be right back." I dashed across the store, run down the liquor aisle, find that bottle, same price. They're still doing it, but they put it in a different place in the store. They didn't put it side by side. I think we still saw behavior adjustment. The person who was going to come in and buy it anyway is going to go to the liquor aisle and just buy it. But it's an impulse buy type of thing on the end cap. I started scratching my chin, like okay, it's probably that they've hired three different firms since then to tell them the same thing.
Jon Perl (00:47:34):
Yeah. I'm sure they want someone to tell them that it's working and find a reason why, so they can continue doing it, because they love it.
Rob Collie (00:47:43):
Yeah.
Jon Perl (00:47:43):
I've seen this problem. With my partner and my clothing business, he was the sales and marketing guy and I was the operations, finance, make it happen guy. Well yeah, of course we have to show green ones, even though no one buys them, because it has to be in the line because that's what it's going to bring people to the booth. In your liquor example, if you could measure how many people bring home those Jameson glasses, and then they have the Jameson glasses forever, or the next however many years. They're probably more likely to buy Jameson the next five times they go to the liquor store because they already have the glasses in their house. It might not be able to be measured.
Rob Collie (00:48:24):
Yeah. It's a loyalty program. You've got to consider the whole picture. You've got to zoom back sometimes and realize you're not working just under a microscope. I think that's really good advice. It's kind of like the argument about whether it's okay to have dashboards with a dark background. You can say, hey look, the cognitive science is very clear here. The dark background interferes with my ability to ingest information, probably by about 5%, not by much, but it's clear which one's better. The white background is better, right? Except that the dark background catches people's attention. It's more fun for them to get involved with. They feel cooler when they're using it. If you consider the whole thing as a funnel, I've got to get their attention and then convey information. Maybe the dark background dashboard has a better throughput of information conveyed than the white background dashboard. But no, no, no, no, you have to get really, really zoomed in and make your career on. Anyway, I get really grumpy about this. I'm going to stop now.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:29):
No, no, keep going.
Rob Collie (00:49:35):
We can just have one podcast, it's nothing but a screaming match of insults between me and one of these celebrity, cognitive scientists that think they understand that visualizations only work a certain way.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:48):
Oh yeah. I have the whole post about contentious issues, data issues.
Rob Collie (00:49:51):
That isn't what the world needs.
Jon Perl (00:49:52):
I think it needs a little of everything.
Rob Collie (00:49:54):
We're all stocked up on tribal combat these days, I think.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:59):
It's trial by combat.
Jon Perl (00:50:00):
Oh man. Wow. Difficult times.
Rob Collie (00:50:09):
It is. You're a long time New York City resident, right?
Jon Perl (00:50:15):
Yeah. But I grew up in the DC area.
Rob Collie (00:50:17):
You grew up in the DC area? Well, we don't talk about that. We want to represent you as our home grown New York City.
Jon Perl (00:50:27):
Yeah. I've been here 20 years, and 20 years in Manhattan. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:50:30):
All right. All right. We'll just say you've 20 years. We're going to round that up to, I lived in Manhattan my whole life. I grew up watching the Knicks. COVID's thrown you a curve, right. You're still living and working in the city part-time, but you've got a new outpost.
Jon Perl (00:50:51):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:50:51):
Outside.
Jon Perl (00:50:52):
That was pretty wild. I mean, after living in the city for 20 years, I have three little kids and we're living in this small apartment. It didn't feel small to us in, let's say March 1st, and then like March whatever, 14th, they closed the school down. Then I was like, wait a second, this apartment is really small. Long story short. I was like, we got to get out of here. I'm not riding out this pandemic in Manhattan, not happening. I panicked and was very lucky, I found a house to rent in Long Beach, New York and called the owner right away. We were in the house in 48 hours. It was for sale. There was nothing inside. I mean, we're talking I had teams of Ikea builders and whatever. 48 hours, I was out of city in this house, in the suburbs.
Rob Collie (00:51:40):
That's right.
Jon Perl (00:51:42):
Yeah. We spoke about it.
Rob Collie (00:51:44):
There's something about the furniture you needed was only available in Baltimore, or something like that, and so you found someone that you'd never met before and hired them to go pick it up for you.
Jon Perl (00:51:54):
I rang a commercial van enterprise, sent them to Baltimore, Ikea. Brought it here to meet the Ikea assembly. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:52:02):
It's all about supply chain.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:09):
This reminds me of reading about Andrew Yang, who went upstate. They asked him, why are you spending the pandemic upstate? And he's like, can you imagine me trying to be in Manhattan with the kids in school and only a two bedroom apartment and all that. I'm like, why didn't I think of riding out the pandemic in my second or even third home? I don't know why that just never occurred to me to have that opportunity.
Rob Collie (00:52:32):
It's like the VP at Microsoft that would sit down in meetings with us and tell us things with a straight face, without any understanding at all, that this was like a really tone deaf thing to tell the rest of us. You know folks, I think... He just had a kid, right. He'd be like, "You know what the real secret to having kids I think is to get two nannies, one for the daytime hours and one for nighttime hours." Just so matter of fact.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:57):
I had that same experience, Rob. He was vice president and he goes, I was explaining a couple of things at home. He goes, you should consider hiring a nanny. I just stared at him. I'm like, you want to swap paychecks or something? How do you think that's relatable? In any way.
Rob Collie (00:53:15):
Yeah. I mean, the salaries at Microsoft for the job I used to do are now just like way higher than when I was there. So, maybe that conversation's different, but at the time, none of us in the room could afford a nanny, and he's telling us that you need a second shift.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:40):
Maybe it's more economical, they're only working part-time.
Jon Perl (00:53:46):
No. I'm not that guy. I ended up ditching my apartment in the city. I've been a bullet and had two places for a little while. Got rid of my apartment in the city and decided to do this. I own the house now for less than... Beautiful house, thank God that left for less than my rent, just rebalanced my life a little bit. I didn't buy three houses.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:04):
I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I knew what you were saying. Sorry.
Jon Perl (00:54:07):
Yeah, no worries.
Rob Collie (00:54:08):
We can dream.
Jon Perl (00:54:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:54:08):
But that apartment of yours was kind of a score. To give it up, had to take some guts.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:15):
There's lots of vacancy in New York.
Rob Collie (00:54:17):
You think so?
Jon Perl (00:54:20):
Right now, yeah. But I mean, that was an amazing fact. At the time it was like, it probably still displaced price wise, for what it was. Rob came to my house for a proper Sabbath, Friday night dinner and Shabbat lunch. Showed him the whole thing. Rob and Joslyn came. We did all the prayers. The whole thing, like soup to nuts.
Rob Collie (00:54:42):
Yeah. We put our phones away. That's the longest phoneless stretch in my last seven years. I was on my phone more at Burning Man.
Jon Perl (00:54:55):
Rob left his wallet and his phone at the door, out of respect. We were like, wow.
Rob Collie (00:55:02):
You can't come into someone else's house and be disrespectful. But I did turn off the light in the bathroom when I left. Everyone had to go to the bathroom in the dark after that, until someone I think politely nudged me and I'm like, oh, I'll go turn it on.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:21):
Oh man. That sounds like it should be a book like, Pranks to Play During Shabbat, at your friend's house.
Jon Perl (00:55:31):
By the way, that's a thing. Any non-Jewish neighbor of an observant Orthodox Jew will know all about that.
Rob Collie (00:55:36):
Would you mind pressing the down button on the elevator for me?
Jon Perl (00:55:43):
Yeah. Somehow it's not weird, essentially.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:46):
It's not, can I put a borrow cup of sugar? Hey, could you come over here and turn a light on for us in the bathroom?
Jon Perl (00:55:53):
I forgot about it. What about, you're in a hotel on vacation. Surprisingly, there are a lot of hotels that, if it's near a synagogue, they'll know the [inaudible 00:56:07] Hotel in Guangzhou, China. It's right next to the [Harbin 00:56:10] Jewish Center. They have people on Friday night who will take you up, they know exactly what to do. I try to teach my kids that it's not a limitation, that's more of an opportunity and a privilege to be able to turn off for 24 hours every week, in a very disciplined fashion and focusing on other things that are not screen based, like your family and your relationships. It's a nice thing. So yeah. Got to experience that with Rob.
Rob Collie (00:56:38):
It's also an excuse to drink more beer, because when over in Israel, I went to the bar or something in the morning and I wanted a coffee. They were like, sorry, we don't make coffee today. I'm like, okay, what can you do? Beer. I'm like, all right.
Jon Perl (00:56:59):
That's right.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:01):
Is all beer kosher? Is every beer considered kosher? Can't be.
Rob Collie (00:57:05):
It's the machinery that was required to deliver it to me, I think was the issue at that particular point in time. It was the espresso machine, the coffee machine couldn't be turned on that day.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:15):
Okay.
Jon Perl (00:57:15):
Yeah. Exactly. They could give you a beer out of the fridge, because they could just open the fridge, give you a beer and somebody could charge it to your room. But as far as cooking goes, we won't turn on or off a fire and we'll only eat things that have been on the fire that have started cooking before the [inaudible 00:57:32]. Stews and stuff during the daytime, or whatever. At a hotel, even if you do this at commercial scale, it's no different. They'll serve breakfast and they'll serve whatever meals within that framework. So yeah, if you go to the hotel bar it's kosher. They're not going to flip on the espresso machine that day.
Rob Collie (00:57:48):
What's next for JP? What's next for Jon Perl? What's next for Noah, for your software baby?
Jon Perl (00:57:54):
I'm very excited about the launch of Noah, my platform for international commercial trade. We've rolled out a very, very exciting suite of tools to enable buyers and sellers of international goods to communicate and facilitate business in a way that they haven't before, as a data guy or creating an international language of data. What's inside those containers and those cartons and those pieces and those inter packs. What's the UPC codes? I don't know, not everyone gets excited by that. I get excited by that. If you know what that even means, it means you can save money. You can eliminate error, means you want to know on that sticky note, what's with your business, if you have a better platform which to run your business.
Rob Collie (00:58:34):
Yeah. You're going to sell more of what you cut.
Jon Perl (00:58:38):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:58:43):
We're in the cut and sold business, not the cut and wasted.
Jon Perl (00:58:49):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:58:52):
There's nothing about that description you just gave that seems apparel specific. It sounded a little bit more broadly applicable. I mean, it turns out that there's a lot of stuff that gets bought and shipped internationally.
Jon Perl (00:59:05):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:59:06):
We've never talked with this before, but it kind of sounds like you might be just starting with apparel.
Jon Perl (00:59:11):
Yeah. We're starting with apparel. We actually have a couple of disparate customers. We're doing the exclusive distributor of the Rubik's cube, is our first customers.
Rob Collie (00:59:18):
What?!
Jon Perl (00:59:18):
Yeah. That's an exciting one.
Rob Collie (00:59:23):
Rubik's cubes are one of the most efficient things to pack into shipping boxes. Did you know that?
Jon Perl (00:59:29):
Actually, you know what, I get excited about packing Rubik's cubes to shipping boxes, because you can get a ton of them into a container, and every container is worth a lot of money. That's how I think about it.
Rob Collie (00:59:40):
Do you know if you make the box that surrounds the Rubik's cube, just like one 16th of an inch less on edge, you get an extra thousand Rubik's cubes in that shipping container.
Jon Perl (00:59:50):
I don't joke about that stuff, man.
Rob Collie (00:59:52):
You don't joke about that? You should see Bill Gellin when it's time to publish a book. This book in this raw form is like 320 pages, and he goes, but you know, every multiple of 16 costs us an extra arm and a leg because it's like an extra roll of paper. They fold it four times to make 16 pages. It's like this binary computer thing, the memory only comes in 16 megabyte sticks. So he's able to get a 320, just with editing and layout, not even editing, just layout. He's able to get a 320 page book down to 253 to get under. He is ruthlessly thrifty.
Jon Perl (01:00:36):
By the way, I would love to go all Joe Rogan podcast with Bill Gellin. That would be...
Rob Collie (01:00:45):
He's on our list, man.
Jon Perl (01:00:46):
I would love to listen to him going Elon Musk on your podcast. That would be a lot of fun.
Rob Collie (01:00:52):
We're going to be cuing him up within the next probably six weeks I think. We didn't want to just shoot our Bill Gellin shot from the beginning.
Jon Perl (01:01:02):
He's coming, I promise. Oh no, I didn't mean that. Oh, sorry.
Rob Collie (01:01:12):
Jon, I enjoyed this immensely. This has been one of the best things that in my professional life, I've really enjoyed this podcast.
Jon Perl (01:01:20):
Thanks man. Yeah, me too. This was incredible. Was my first podcast.
Rob Collie (01:01:20):
Yeah. Well hey, it's just like my 17th. That's it.
Jon Perl (01:01:29):
It's a privilege to get on with you anytime. I always learn a lot from you, Rob.
Rob Collie (01:01:36):
Vice versa. Like I said recently, a professional excuse to talk to someone interesting for an hour and a half. I mean, man, even if no one was listening, that would be worth it.
Jon Perl (01:01:50):
Rob, I'm going to call you the data Rebbi. A Rebbi is one of those Hasidic guys, who's got a massive posse. He's got a big gymnasium with bleachers. He's got all those guys who are singing and dancing. The guy in the middle with the beard and the coat, the whole get up, is called the Rebbi.
Rob Collie (01:02:08):
Okay.
Jon Perl (01:02:08):
Then the guy, they'll go around him, we call the Hasidim. Okay. The Hasidic people, those are the people who follow that specific route, so I'm going to call you the data Rebbi.
Rob Collie (01:02:19):
Sounds cool. It sounds short for rebel. It does. It sounds pretty hip. It's like Rabbi, but a little hipper. Here's my Rebbi, he DJ's my parties.
Jon Perl (01:02:35):
You say Rebbi instead of Rabbi, people will know you're really in.
Rob Collie (01:02:38):
Really? All right, man. Thanks so much. This was great.
Jon Perl (01:02:42):
All right, guys. Thank you.
Announcer (01:02:44):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P, L-U-K-E-P @powerpivotpro.com. Have a day today!
Lori Rodriguez has a unique perspective on business, she's been collecting data about and for C-suite technology leaders as Vice President-Executive Programs at Gartner. In this episode, she shares her knowledge about technology and business as an expert in both fields. Lori is an advocate for women in business and STEM fields and has authored the book due out soon-We Want You To Stay: The Hidden Lives of Twenty Women In Stem. You can preview a chapter of the book and learn more HERE.
Episode Timeline:
- 3:45 - Lori knows more about CIO's than just about anyone on the planet
- 8:20 - Digitalization and tech changes EVERYTHING and that change takes time to develop
- 21:20 - Role and responsibility swings between IT and Business
- 29:40 - The bullying of IT by the villains and the importance of process discipline
- 37:55 - Is the real villain the software industry?
- 44:20 - The first MS software that didn't suck, and the idea that software development is prejudiced or gender-biased
- 48:40 - Some startling statistics about women and minorities and why women aren't staying in STEM fields
- 1:02:25 - The P3 Power BI class gender statistics and the P3 hiring process yield some insight into the numbers of women in the data field
- 1:16:20 - Lori has some great advice for fathers with daughters about to enter college
- 1:25:10 - The interesting history of Lori's book, We Want You To Stay: The Hidden Lives of Twenty Women In Stem
- 1:31:55 - Rob makes the Ratatouille reference of the decade , The Data Cook can come from anywhere
- 1:37:10- The clearest explanation as to why P3 is the quickest to results BI consultancy-5 business days for a first tangible project iteration is common for P3's team
- 1:43:10 - Another crystal-clear explanation as to why Power BI is the best BI tool-with a nice bonus sports analogy!
- 1:49:25 - Lori shares her great perspective about the human side of Gartner's processes
- 1:52:35 - Power BI's dominance in Interoperability defined and discussed-The BI in Power BI should stand for Business Improvement: That's Rob and P3's philosophy!
- 1:59:20 - Rob's theory on something big that Microsoft is planning
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, everyone. This week's guest is Lori Rodriguez, a Vice President at Gartner, a company you may have heard of, and also author of the upcoming book, We Want You to Stay: The Hidden Lives of Twenty Women in STEM. Going in, I knew this was going to be a compelling conversation, but I honestly had no idea. This is by far the longest podcast we've recorded so far. And we weren't rambling, at least I don't think we were. It was compelling to me every single step of the way. Otherwise, we would've called it off. We would've bailed. We cover a lot of ground. Of course, we talk about her work at Gartner. We talk about her book. We talk about the unique challenges facing women in STEM fields. But the thing for me that I think led this to be such a long conversation was just how much valuable acquired wisdom was on display.
Rob Collie (00:00:57):
Lori has just a tremendous amount of experience and right at that critical junction between technology and business, which we're always talking about here on the show. And it's not just that she's worked at that intersection for so long, it's also the way that she's been observing it. This is someone that's constantly, it's just obvious that she's always been synthesizing and revising her models and her understanding of the world around her, the world that she's navigating through. And I like to think of myself as being similar. So we just had a great time. At one point, Tom had to drop and we continued for like another 90 minutes after that. That's how much fun we were having. Make sure you catch near the end, the reference to the movie, Ratatouille. I've been saving this Ratatouille reference for about 10 years for just the right moment. And it turns out I found it. I found exactly the time to use it. So, that was really gratifying. It's a long one, but I think it's worth it. You'll be the judge, of course. So, let's get into it.
Announcer (00:01:59):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please.
Announcer (00:02:03):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with a human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:22):
Welcome to the show, Lori Rodriguez. How are you today?
Lori Rodriguez (00:02:26):
Hey, Rob. I'm doing great. How are you?
Rob Collie (00:02:28):
So good. So good to have you on. I'm really glad we get to do this. Lori, you work at a company that people have probably heard of. Can you tell us what your job title is and stuff like that?
Lori Rodriguez (00:02:38):
Sure. So I'm Vice President Executive Programs at Gartner. What does that mean? I'm on the business side of Gartner. I'm not an analyst. Opinions are my own today. I'm also not an IT, I'm not a consultant, and I don't run any of our conferences. So I work on the business in the business, if that makes any sense.
Rob Collie (00:02:58):
Yeah, it does. But of course, no one would ever think that such a thing exists. Like from the outside, of course, Gartner's just a bunch of people that are experts in industries that write articles and review software and stay on top of trends. And that's it. That's all it is, right? And, of course, there's more behind the scenes, isn't there?
Lori Rodriguez (00:03:16):
Yes, there is. So specifically what I do is I lead our innovative initiatives and I build products and services just like you all do out there. And for my audience, it's CIOs, at least it used to be. And now it's all of those other senior, most tech leaders with all the little alphabet letters behind them, chief technology officers, chief data officers, chief data protection officers, and anything else they throw in there that has to do with the tech side of any business today.
Rob Collie (00:03:45):
Yeah. There's certainly an innovation in titles that has happened over the last few years. Like, people realize that the word chief, it could be thrown in front of many things. It didn't just have to be like the usual, right, we could put chief in front of anything.
Lori Rodriguez (00:03:57):
Absolutely. Chief success officer.
Rob Collie (00:04:00):
Oh, yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (00:04:00):
Chief customer officer.
Rob Collie (00:04:02):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (00:04:02):
Chief customer experience officer. You can keep going.
Rob Collie (00:04:05):
Chief success officer, that seems to cover a lot of ground. I think that might be the end all, be all.
Lori Rodriguez (00:04:10):
Kind of think it isn't at the CEO, I don't know, but...
Rob Collie (00:04:13):
I don't know either, but success seems like it's important to everyone. Okay. So would you say the people with those sorts of titles are kind of like your customers?
Lori Rodriguez (00:04:22):
Yep. Those are my customers, not from an IT perspective view of customers, but external end user customers. So my job is to go understand what their needs are. I've interviewed over a thousand CIOs. I've actually been Jane Goodall, took my notepad and followed them around all day long, writing down who they're talking to, what devices they're using, things like that. I've done some of that work, day in the life work. Then I understand, well, okay, what is it they're trying to do? How are they getting that done today? And then where does Gartner fit into that model? Or not just Gartner, but anything that has to do with information sources, what are they using today? And where are the opportunities for Gartner to improve their products and services? Or if we have a gap in those, what else can we do to fulfill those needs so that our customers are happy, successful, and keep coming back and buying our products year after year.
Rob Collie (00:05:17):
So you're going to write a book called CIOs in the Mist.
Lori Rodriguez (00:05:21):
Yeah, could be, could be. They are strange animals.
Rob Collie (00:05:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And over a thousand of them, that's fascinating.
Lori Rodriguez (00:05:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:28):
How many people on the planet have had a similar experience to interview over a thousand CIOs? I mean, I bet it's single digits, single-digit human population that has had that kind of experience. And that's fascinating. One of the things that I've really appreciated in the last 11 years since leaving Microsoft, the nature of our business is so up tempo, so fast. Our whole ethos is to burn through projects as fast as we can on behalf of our clients, no padding, no overhead, nothing. Right? And one of the side effects of that is that we do get such a broad sampling of the world. Like if you're doing projects quickly, in order to stay in business, we have to do a lot of projects. And so we're just seeing, we're like drinking from the river of everything. Microsoft, they would send me on a field trip every six months maybe, to visit a customer. And I'd come back all full of customer energy like, I know what we should do now. Like that one one day spent with one customer-
Lori Rodriguez (00:06:30):
Data point of one.
Rob Collie (00:06:30):
Yeah. And so you end up with some very lopsided opinions about the world. But when I hear someone who has that breadth of sample, especially given our experience, I take note.
Lori Rodriguez (00:06:40):
Cool.
Rob Collie (00:06:41):
Like you really know what's going on in a way that most people don't get an opportunity to. That must be really fascinating.
Lori Rodriguez (00:06:46):
Yeah. It's why I love Gartner, why I love what I do. And it's a very unique perspective because I intentionally mentioned where I sit within Gartner because my audience are CIOs, they run IT departments, but I build products and I need my IT department to help me build that product. So it's very interesting when... And it's getting better. Thank God. But for so long CIOs tended to be far too functional and not businesslike. So I would always hear from them as the market research person, oh, we need to get a seat at the table. The big bad business is beating us up, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm the business. And I'm listening to them talking in tech terms going like, no kidding, listen to you. I'm the business.
Lori Rodriguez (00:07:34):
So on the one hand, internally I'm going, yeah, you really need to understand business value of IT and speak in business terms, because you're not speaking to me in those terms. And if you use those terms with your business, I can see where you're having those issues. And on my side of it, I'm the business working with IT. Right? So I understand those problems from the business side as well. So it's a very unique perspective. I thought coming into things that I'm building these products for people and I'm using those products as well in IT. And I could see this huge disconnect. So I would go back to our research organization, I'd say, look, we can keep telling CIOs to talk in business terms and to move from being a functional CIO to more of a business strategist, right? You still have to maintain and manage your IT department, but if you want that seat at the table, you need to take it. And to take it and to lead there, you need to speak as the business in the business to lead the business.
Lori Rodriguez (00:08:29):
And we would always say that on our research. We said, we need to do more because we're not moving the needle. I keep hearing this year after year, after year. And there's been a significant shift in the last say three years in the conversations that I have with CIOs and senior IT leaders, which has been very positive in that business direction. And they had to, they had to because of digital business. You have to have your IT organization to be at a certain level of maturity before you can take on digitalization, for example. So that was happening and then COVID. And now we've seen all sorts of stuff, all these things that couldn't get done before, telemedicine, remote work, all that just got thrown on the table very quickly. Some people were prepared, others weren't and we've accelerated where we are in the maturity of IT organizations considerably. And I don't know the numbers, but I would imagine that a lot of CIOs maybe lost their job or will be losing their job because they were not up to speed. They weren't prepared.
Rob Collie (00:09:28):
On a previous show, I mentioned that the famous physicist Max Planck said that the whole notion that science moves forward through a meritocracy of ideas and the best ideas flow to the top, he basically said it was all bullshit. He said-
Lori Rodriguez (00:09:43):
Beta versus VHS. I mean, come on.
Rob Collie (00:09:45):
Right. He said, no, here's what happens. The better ideas come around and they're rejected. They're locked out. But then the old guard dies off. Then there is sort of a little bit of a meritocracy of idea, but it doesn't really have a chance to gain a foothold because basically what he was saying is, is that entrenched professionals don't change, I think is what he was saying. Keeping in mind, of course, you are speaking as yourself. You are not speaking on behalf of Gartner. I'm just dying to ask you, the progress that we've seen in the past few years, do you think it's more along the lines of Planck? Like it reflects a changeover, there's different people in those roles? Or do you think it's people actually kind of finally getting it?
Lori Rodriguez (00:10:26):
I think it's a combination of both. So fall of 2019 maybe, it was in 2019, early spring or fall, I did a set of interviews and I forget the question I was asking, but I kept hearing over and over again, CEO change, CEO change. So, chief executive officer had changed in the organization. And I was like, wow, random sample. So I wanted to go check that. So I did some research and it was true. I'm going to mess the numbers up, but it was something like in the course of two years, give or take 10%, 50% of... No, maybe 40% of the CEOs were turning over-
Rob Collie (00:11:08):
Wow.
Lori Rodriguez (00:11:08):
... in the course of two years. Huge. And the board was bringing in CEOs who had more technology savviness about them, whether it was a tech background or they just were more savvy. Right? Changing of the guard, like you said, right? The old guard was changing. The board understood that to survive, they need to become, I hate to say the phrase, a technology company, but they had to leverage technology in a way they hadn't thought of before.
Lori Rodriguez (00:11:34):
And so to that point, there was this recognition we have to change. And when you change the CEO and they're mandated to change and use technology, it puts a lot of pressure on CIOs. So the downstream effect is, geez, CIO, if you're still over here and haven't matured your IT organization, you're probably in some big trouble in the next couple years, and then COVID hit. So, that just accelerated everything. I haven't looked at it, so I don't know whether companies kept the CIO that they had, because they had to because things were changing so quickly or if they were like, dump them and let's go with somebody else quickly. I don't know what that fallout was, but you'll see that change from those CEO shifts hitting the IT organization and then really making that cultural shift. To answer your question, where does that fall in terms of which side of the coin was that?
Rob Collie (00:12:23):
Yeah. I agree with you. I think it's both, right? Good ideas are one thing. Things that you can nod your head to and say yes, what you're telling me sounds correct, that's one thing, but it's different when it has that visceral power of reality behind it. Like you're watching your friends and peers maybe lose their jobs, lose their positions because they weren't flexible enough, that'll wake you up in the morning. So yeah, the world doesn't really move until it has to. Yeah. But I guess in the world of physics there weren't CEOs being changed over that told the physicist what to think. So Planck's rule, maybe it only halfway holds for IT.
Lori Rodriguez (00:12:59):
Yeah. But the thing is, change is slower, fast, depending on where your horizon is. So if you were looking... If your arc was pretty far out there, you saw this coming. You heard me talking about, I've been talking about this for years, digitalization is going to change everything industry by industry. You could see that coming. You had decades. And I'll talk about my journey. I come from marketing where everything was being bridge board and markers. We did everything by hand. And then they put a Mac IIcx on my desk in 1989 and everything changed. And in 12 to 18 months, it was really, really fast. These industries that were a hundred plus years old gone. Gone.
Lori Rodriguez (00:13:48):
There's a really complicated apprenticeship role called a stripper, of all things. And you had to practice for decades to do that. But once you obtained that level of expertise, it was a high-paying job and you were kind of set, right? That was gone. The strippers weren't needed anymore once you had access to Adobe, it was called Aldus at the time and other software that was coming out at that time, everything. And I was like, this is amazing. Fell in love with technology. And I could see then, this was just marketing. Who cares? It's bullshit, right? Like, you're marketing stuff. But you could see with this technology, what it could do, if you looked hard enough. You could see what it would do for government or get some sense of it, healthcare, education, buying a car, voting. You could look at any industry and see how digitalization was going to change that industry.
Lori Rodriguez (00:14:41):
And that's kind of where I just fell in love with technology and where I kind of eventually found that Gartner was doing that. And I wanted to be part of that. I wanted to be part of accelerating that digital change so that we could take advantage of what I saw when I was working in a creative studio in marketing.
Rob Collie (00:14:59):
Yeah. I love that journey. We talked about this a little bit backstage. To me, the future of most valuable things is at that junction between IT and business, between the subject matter expertise and the technology expertise. And the closer you can get the two together, the more effective you're going to be at the distance between them. And so the people who can speak both, the ambassadors, I sort of think of the ambassadors in some sense is sort of like, that's my tribe. That's who I belong to. I just love looking around and saying, ah, my tribe, our day has come. We are really important these days. I was fascinated by your marketing background in the beginning and the path that you've taken. In Mad Men, there's an episode where they bring the giant computer into the office, like in the early seventies or late sixties. And they're like, this is going to change everything. And, you know, watching it, it doesn't for a long time.
Lori Rodriguez (00:15:50):
A long time, a long time, 1989 to maybe like five years ago where people's... And we're still not there yet in a lot of industries, but the tipping point is happening. There's no going back. And how often in a lifetime do you get to go check the box on your mission? I mean, that day, that that box appeared on my desk became the day that my mission became clear to me. And here we are. That's so cool and to have a front row seat and even be able to make what small measure of progress I could do, that's been fantastic.
Rob Collie (00:16:26):
You know what's really funny, I've been going around for years telling people... And it's the truth. It's not a lie. I've gone back and looked. Most of the personal computer advertising that was done in the eighties, if you go back and look at the ads, you see that it was actually spreadsheets. The pictures are of spreadsheets and of charts. And so like the PC, everyone knows this, if you watch the documentaries, the killer app for the PC was the Spreadsheet. But there was also another killer app now, wasn't there, which was Publishing, the production of creative materials. And this is where the strippers lost their jobs, right?
Lori Rodriguez (00:16:59):
That's where the strippers lost their jobs.
Rob Collie (00:16:59):
That's right. Pagemaker put the strippers out of work.
Lori Rodriguez (00:17:05):
So Apple at the time was about to go out of business around that time period. I know that because when Steve Jobs came back, I went and took my entire 20-year-old retirement savings and bought Apple stock, which I still have today.
Rob Collie (00:17:20):
Well done.
Lori Rodriguez (00:17:20):
So it was good, good move. Effective rate of 33 cents a share. Thank you very much. And I knew, because I knew fonts and colors, it would take several years before any non-Apple product could replace the font system and the color management system that Apple had and publishers had invested millions of dollars of equipment that you couldn't turn over on a dime. So that was going to take long enough for Steve Jobs to come back and get back in the saddle of this organization and change it around. That was a bet I placed. It was a pretty good bet.
Rob Collie (00:17:56):
Did you also buy Bitcoin?
Lori Rodriguez (00:17:58):
Yes, I did.
Rob Collie (00:17:59):
Oh, man. So next stop, you're going to run a hedge fund.
Lori Rodriguez (00:18:05):
Just a one or two trick pony, so that's all I got on that bit.
Rob Collie (00:18:07):
Those are good tricks though.
Lori Rodriguez (00:18:08):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:18:09):
If you're only going to have one or two, those are pretty good ones to have.
Lori Rodriguez (00:18:12):
Yep. But it's funny you mention Lotus 1-2-3. So, spreadsheets. Prior to that, it wasn't the first time I touched a computer. I was working as a secretary, they called them secretaries at the time, in a marketing company and I was reporting to the CFO and the CMO. And the PC came out, IBM PC DOS, black screen, green dots on it. And I went out and learned it. I brought it back and our CFO, all he did the whole week was about five spreadsheets. There's maybe 10 numbers you plug in, and he spent the entire week filling out by hand these spreadsheets.
Lori Rodriguez (00:18:47):
So I went and learned Lotus 1-2-3. It took me about a week to take those spreadsheets and do all the formulas. And then I plugged in those... The CMO got the numbers. So I would call, get the numbers. I'd plug them into the spreadsheet, hit go and printed out... And the guy was just jumping up and down. He was so excited. Wow, this is amazing. That was week one. Week two, I printed them out and he was like, okay, okay. Week three, the computer was gone. He took the computer out and we were no longer using the PC.
Rob Collie (00:19:19):
And somewhere Max Planck nods.
Lori Rodriguez (00:19:22):
Because he was this old dude. It's all he did all week. And he was made completely redundant by this little box that sat in the corner of his office and he removed it from the office.
Rob Collie (00:19:34):
You want to tell the alternate story, which is, at that moment, the CFO goes, oh, I am now free to do... I use a lot of sports metaphors, even though I wasn't really part of a lot of organized sports growing up. Doing the spreadsheet every week is sort of like a defensive thing, right? It's just sort of to keep the lights on. The opportunity to improve things, to go on the offensive, to advance a new initiative or a new line of thinking, like this guy now had so much time that he could have used effectively. But when moments like that happen, you find out that unfortunately, most people, not everyone, but most people do have a bit of a defensive mindset.
Rob Collie (00:20:14):
So yeah, this notion of offense and defense. And I wonder if the thing you were talking about earlier, like the CEO changeover and sort of the changing mindset amongst the CIOs, that's one of the things, when we do talk to CIOs or IT directors, we don't really come out and say it this way, but that's essentially what we're trying to say to people oftentimes is like, you can be part of the wins and not just the people who are noticed when something goes wrong because a lot of times trying to get people to do something different, their first response is this is going to land on me, isn't it? When things go wrong and we're like, well, that's how it is today. Imagine being involved in one of the wins, like something goes right and changes everything for everyone. It takes a little warming up to that idea. But it sounds like, just from what you've been saying, that even on a broader scale than what we see, things are kind of headed in a positive direction there.
Lori Rodriguez (00:21:10):
Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree. They had to. You can't be a digital organization in a defensive posture. And so a proliferation of those roles with all those different titles was a response to the fact, there wasn't anybody in the organization who felt responsible for bringing technology to those wins, right? Or enabling those wins through technology. A few years ago, it was interesting. I was like, where's that going to play? I actually mapped it out. I created this scenario of roles and tasks and then threw titles on the top of it, just to see, and then just played out for fun, because I'm stupid geeky that way, where could I anticipate these responsibilities heading because nobody was responsible for them?
Lori Rodriguez (00:21:56):
Well, let's take customer experience for example, who owns that? It's not the IT department, right? They're not good at that. They're math people. They're not psychologists. So then you think, well, who's responsible for any of that today. Well, the closest thing you come up with is the CMO in marketing, but they don't have the technology background. So that was a short-term play where there was a potential that things would go over there and maybe they still are in some places, but they weren't the right people either. So now it's sort of swinging back to IT, but I don't think that's landed really, who owns that yet? When I ask where does customer experience sit in an organization, it's reporting structure, it's not in a satisfying place right now. So we'll see where that goes.
Lori Rodriguez (00:22:38):
But that's a landscape that the CIO could take on, right? Because as an IT department, you are in a very unique position to have eyes on every part of your business. There's not many roles that have that and customer experience is that. It's the DNA of the organization or it should be. And so it does kind of pair nicely in the IT organization. If the IT organization is completely focused on governance, their favorite word, and effectiveness, you can't take on customer experience because governance and effectiveness is down here in a pace-layering model that changes slowly. And what you measure is very different in effectiveness than what you're measuring in customer experience and innovation.
Lori Rodriguez (00:23:25):
So you talked about speed. You got to have a lot of speed up there. So IT has to be able to wear those two different hats. Like one is fast and failing a lot, right? Their effectiveness is speed, agility and failing fast forward. When you're managing systems where you can't have failure, particularly if you're NASA, for example, or any business or anywhere, there might be a potential breach in that data that's going to cause harm to your organization or to your customer set, you can't fail. Like, that's a completely different model. So IT's got to reconcile how they would do both, but if they can't figure it out, that's a nice pairing. Or you end up with a chief technology officer or chief customer experience officer, whatever that other CXO is and you have to work very closely together because all of that innovation stuff has to be integrated fully into your systems or you end up with very siloed experiences and your customers are like, this is awful. This is an awful experience.
Rob Collie (00:24:29):
You mentioned something I thought was just absolutely spot on, which is the CIO does have sort of guardrail to guardrail exposure to everything that's going on, whereas on the business side, that usually isn't true. It's a bit more departmental. And I've got a short story to tell you that I think amplifies your point. This is now coming up on seven and a half years ago. This is a really cool story, especially when you put it in the seven and a half year ago context. So one of our clients, which I won't name, big company, 16 plus billion dollars a year in revenue, not exactly a small shop, they knew that the services they provide their customers are essentially commoditized. Like the types of equipment that they install for their customers, it's the same equipment that their competitors install. And so they knew deep down in their bones that the only thing that differentiates them, win or lose, from their competition is the quality of customer service that they provide.
Rob Collie (00:25:29):
But that is a long journey. It starts from a data perspective. It starts in the CRM. Someone inquired for a quote, did we even answer? Did we even get back to them? And it goes all the way through things like third-party surveys, like J.D. Power and things like that. The CEO of this corporation knew in 2013, knew all of this and knew that the number one thing that they needed to do strategically at their company was for now, first and foremost, just get a scorecard that told them how well they were doing. Improvements aside, how well are we doing everywhere? But they didn't have one. They actually had nothing measuring the quality of customer service because what they had was thousands and thousands and thousands of reports each coming from its own single-siloed system. And there were nine different systems that had something to say.
Lori Rodriguez (00:26:27):
And can you imagine the data architecture. I mean, even organizational size, what's the value of organizational size? Is it by number of employees, number of revenue bands? And are the revenue bands across all of those reports equal? You can't even have the data talk to each other. Even if they're just sitting in different components, the data doesn't even talk to each other.
Rob Collie (00:26:46):
That's right. As usual, the C-suite turns to one of their fixers. One of the things I really, really, really wish in this world, if the fixers had a consistent job title, because the fixers love us and we love the fixers, but they never have the same title. I've never run into two with the same title. They just happen to be like that lieutenant that someone turns to and goes, go kill. And this radical, absolute radical... In 2013, first of all, he went to IT and said, look, the CEO says, we need to do this. It's the most important thing the business could do over the next five years? IT said, yes, we understand. That makes sense to us. We'll get started in a year and a half. We're sunk amongst other things. There were some M&A or some spinoff types of things going on at the time. And they were really up to their eyeballs, but they're always up to their eyeballs, right? That's just the story.
Rob Collie (00:27:33):
He tried us. Again, that's what I mean by what a radical. Like the technology really hasn't changed. The stuff that we do at our company with Power BI, it's fundamentally the same as it was seven and a half years ago in terms of the real important things under the hood. But it was not a responsible choice back then, right? It wasn't established enough. Like they didn't have the reputation yet to be a safe career move, to try it. But we just knocked it out of the park. I mean, you talk about the data, doesn't talk to each other. It never had to really. It only came together in this data model that we built. Power BI didn't exist. It was still Power Pivot in Excel. And this thing, we were done essentially end to end in three months.
Lori Rodriguez (00:28:17):
How did you reconcile data values that didn't match up? Did you create your insulation engines?
Rob Collie (00:28:24):
You mean like IDs and keys?
Lori Rodriguez (00:28:26):
No. The example I gave you, like what a revenue band is for an organizational size, right? Is it one to $4 billion? One report would say, is revenue band A, let's say. Revenue band A is 4.1 onto 10. That's one report, right, has it modeled that way. Another report has it modeled zero to 1.5 billion is A. So they're completely, they don't match. You can't say this revenue band matches this revenue band, even if it's in different reports, because the values are different.
Rob Collie (00:28:58):
Well, we got to a lower level of source data. So it was down to like individual-
Rob Collie (00:29:02):
Of source data. So it was down to individual contracts, agreements with individual customers. So for example, one of the things, one of the factors that we measured was attrition. It was essentially a subscription business or like the monthly revenue in force. And we can see when contracts got canceled, you could assign attrition and it was dollar-weighted attrition. And the whole point of this was to make it drillable so that you could see that it was the same report at the C-suite level for the entire company, as it was for someone managing an individual office in an individual city. You just drill down and you'd see their versions of these same metrics.
Lori Rodriguez (00:29:39):
Wouldn't that just be what you would think, right?
Rob Collie (00:29:42):
Yeah totally.
Lori Rodriguez (00:29:42):
You have a view across the organization and everyone up and down and across, sees the data in a way that makes sense for them at their level permissioning and all that other stuff. But fundamentally, you can compare apples to apples. It seems so easy, right? But anyone who deals with data, and clearly your audience does, it's hard, it's the hardest thing. From the business side, you're going, "why can't you just, I don't understand. Just give me a report." But does this?
Rob Collie (00:30:10):
Yeah. At P-Three, we run a really, really tiny boutique competitor to Gartner in the form of me spouting opinions. I'm not restrained in any way. We're small enough that I could just speak my mind. For years and years and years I've absorbed so much messaging from the respected figures in industry, talking heads and analysts and things like that. They're always talking about what the next big thing and data is going to be. It's going to be this, it's going to be this, it's going to be this, and I keep looking around going, next big thing in data is doing the basics right for the first time ever. And it's a green field.
Lori Rodriguez (00:30:47):
Yeah. Clean data. Can we just start with some clean datasets and good data architecture and some governance around that? I'll take that to your point. You, we can do amazing stuff with data, but it's a house of cards if the foundation and the basics aren't done and the business doesn't understand that. Like I said, I wear this weird hat. And as the business side, I'm going like, oh, I don't understand any of that. Just make it happen. Order-taker status I get to have. On the other side, having to produce things and dealing with the folks who have to develop it, it's fricking hard. It's not that easy, business.
Lori Rodriguez (00:31:25):
It's really hard. And if you guys could get your act together across businesses and define what attrition means, define your KPIs in a way that you can actually have data sets where you could do some of the trending analysis and all the cool stuff you want to get to, but it's garbage in, garbage out. And the business itself is often the reason why because we bully IT and we bully our developers and we bully our programmers to say, this is how I want it. And it has to be done that way or I'll fire you kind of thing. Well, then that's what you get. You get what you ask for and we don't have the basics. We don't have clean data that we can build really cool stuff on top of.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:04):
Rob, remember I've always mentioned to you how nobody goes to school to be a data janitor.
Rob Collie (00:32:10):
Yeah. I was coming around to the same exact sort of thing like if you want an example of the behavior, you're talking about Lori, bullying IT, you can even go and look at how the business ends up implicitly treating its Excel gurus. The Excel people, which are in the business, the shadow IT that you talk about. They get beaten up in all the same ways that IT gets beaten up. Excel has for a very long time. Been sort of like, I think it's improving a little bit, but Excel has been a bad word in IT circles for a long time, it's a point of frustration. When I get them together, I'm like you folks, don't talk about Excel, talk about the people who use it and go get to know them and you will be stunned at how much you have in common; the two of you.
Lori Rodriguez (00:32:55):
True, true, true.
Rob Collie (00:32:57):
The number of times that people who are good at Excel, given a set of requirements, I need the numbers tomorrow morning. Can you give me the numbers? It's not even the report or whatever, like it's just the numbers. They just make it sound like it's such Childsplay.
Lori Rodriguez (00:33:09):
It's easy.
Rob Collie (00:33:10):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (00:33:11):
Why can't I have these numbers? Well, because you've demanded them one way, your sales department has demanded those numbers another way, neither one of you will budge. You won't talk to each other. And so you create two separate. You have people in each side, whether it's IT, or whether it's the Excel business analysts or whomever. And they're creating reports because somebody higher up said, this is what it has to be. And then those two departments get together to present to the operating committee and their numbers don't line up. And then guess who's spending the weekend trying to reconcile the numbers. It's not the folks who won't talk to each other. You're laughing. So sounds good.
Rob Collie (00:33:47):
This is it. Over and over and over again. It's really kind of neat when you finally like plugged those two wires into each other, the IT and the Excel people. And the reason we have the opportunity to do this in our business, it's through power BI. It's the new stuff from Microsoft that is aimed at that Excel person. That's actually was my job at Microsoft before I left, was building these tools for those people. When you get them together, I'm going to whisper this, you can kind of sideline the villains in the story and the villains are going to be happy. They're still going to get what they want, but the people who are causing the problems are really not that important in the end once you have the right tools and the right culture in place. And it's just been really gratifying to see it.
Lori Rodriguez (00:34:31):
It is the right culture. It's not too often. I love the value thing, but it's also, we don't have to be, right? We have to be reasonable people. And we have to understand that every side has to hold up their side of things, right? Like you have to say, well, this is the requirements, we are non-negotiable and these are non-negotiable. If everybody understood, it's important to have non-negotiables and then you negotiate and then that's where guiding principles come in. All the stuff that people don't want to do up front, because they don't have the time, create the frameworks, create the guiding principles, create the data architecture or architecture in general. Oh, that terrible word nobody wants to hear. But if you do that upfront, you're just slotting stuff in and you have a very neutral objective way to negotiate those non-negotiables. And then, things move very quickly.
Lori Rodriguez (00:35:24):
You can get a lot of stuff done once you've done that foundational, the basic stuff, then you have speed after that. But what we do is we don't have time to do it right. So, we get it done and then we never have time to do it right and every project takes exponentially longer because the foundation isn't there. And after three years, you realize, "well, if you'd spent two weeks, maybe, up front doing this other work, you would've probably got three times as much work done at the end of the three years. Minimal, if you just spend a little time upfront negotiating the terms.
Rob Collie (00:35:58):
Yeah, I do want to circle back to the villain word because that process, you're talking about, process discipline, and things like that, that's hard. People don't really want to do that.
Lori Rodriguez (00:36:05):
Culture.
Rob Collie (00:36:06):
Yeah. Even at my own company, process discipline is not my forte. It's not my strength. Our president Kellen Danielson, he's been responsible, really. He's the backbone of a lot of growth over the past several years. Cause once we got to a certain scale, all the things you just said, I'm probably guilty as charged.
Lori Rodriguez (00:36:27):
We all are. We all are, but somebody needs to stand up there and do it, find a process, hire a process geek. When you look at your team, find somebody who has some love of process. There are people like, we all look at that and go, "oh God, that was horrible, whoever would want to do that." You're like, "There are people who love that stuff." Make sure somebody on your team volunteers. They're the kind of person who volunteers to take over the process things and then the flip side of that, right? I'm very bipolar that way is you can get into analysis paralysis and get stuck by process. The process is not the end game. The process is the rules that define the game that you're going to play. And they're worth putting down on paper, so you don't have these arguments and you end up, you end up with villains and hurt feelings and all sorts of other stuff.
Rob Collie (00:37:14):
Yeah, at our company, it's a joke, but I think it's the truth. It's that I've been saying for a while that Kellen and I combined are one complete leader.
Lori Rodriguez (00:37:24):
That's a good thing.
Rob Collie (00:37:26):
It's been really good. And I've always known that there were people who were good at processing who enjoyed it, but what I didn't do was I didn't respect it. I didn't respect it. I didn't really think it was valuable. If I look back, I would say, "I thought of it as the equivalent of holding the clipboard." I'm seeing with new eyes in the past several years. I have seen what it can do. I am now that visceral believer and the thing that I used to just nod and say, "mm-hmm (affirmative) of, course." Now, I'm the visceral believer in it. And it's a big difference. I really want to get to talking about your book, but I wanted to throw one more thing at you before we do that, which is you're talking about these villains and see what your reaction to this is.
Rob Collie (00:38:02):
I think that the single biggest villain and the decades of IT, business, conflict, and friction has actually been the software industry. I think that people like me, for a very long time, have built tools that basically contain all of the necessary and sufficient ingredients to create dysfunction. All of these processes we're talking about and a cultural change and getting on the same page and all of that, a lot of those things we're talking about actually can't happen unless the tools facilitate it. The tools have to at least allow for it and so much of the software that I used to build for it departments, I was a decision maker. I was designing this stuff. How does it behave? What are its capabilities? What are its feature set? I was baking in conflict, without knowing it. And I think there's this early, early glimmer of awareness now. This trend in the software industry is even younger and more immature than the one we were talking about with like CIO is coming around to a business mindset. It's like IT software has to be built for that middle ground between the business and IT.
Lori Rodriguez (00:39:18):
I'd agree, the only thing I'd change is that's been around forever. Create software that doesn't suck. That's been the mantra of open source and other people. So when you have the consumerization of IT, so people bringing in mobile devices and just like, we'd had it, right? We were living a world outside of work where technology was something we were dependent upon and then we'd go to work and we hated it, right? We hated IT department, we hated the tools we use, we hated all of that. Once we brought, we were like said we've had enough and sort of everybody at work created their own manifesto. Then I think that's where it sort of flipped to what you're saying. So it is sort of young in that aspect is that the internal tools and software we're building, we were the last mile, right?
Lori Rodriguez (00:40:04):
It doesn't matter what the associates are using. We had to focus everything on the client. I'm like, well, your associates are touching the client. And if their software sucks, it just translates down the line. One of the things that's happened and it's still happening today, this whole notion of customer experience, when I say customer experience, and I know IT folks, that's a bad word, right? So I get that, I just don't know what other label to throw. You have four things really under that, you have your customers, the people you sell to. You have your customer's customers in B2B, right? So who are they selling to? You have your associates, which is the part we're talking about building tools. So there's an experience for your associates, associate experience. Whatever you want to call it? And then there's internet of things. So things are going to be customers where you're talking specifically is associate software.
Lori Rodriguez (00:40:55):
I think. And what's happened is you remember the old prioritization you'd have 1, 2, 3 must haves, nice to haves. The only thing that ever got built were must haves, and those typically were along the lines of the function. Does it function? I need it to turn the lights on when I say "help I've fallen, I can't get up," and when I say, turn the lights on, it turns the lights on. But if it turned on floodlights and what you really needed was reading light or something, or it turned on your red light that spins and "Woo Woo Woo," that's not the kind of light I needed, but we put down as a requirement to turn the light on. So when you're thinking of needs analysis, there's a lot more than just does it do the thing that we said it was going to do.
Lori Rodriguez (00:41:43):
There's a whole lot of psychological and emotional and behavioral aspects along the lines of a requirement. So you have the logical ones. Does it, do you know the functional piece? Does it achieve the goal that we set out to achieve? Does it drive the behavior that we're expecting, but then you all will be aesthetics. Is it pleasing? Is it adoptable? Will I use it? If they're not going to use it, it doesn't matter all. If you've hit the functional requirements and we're still not there yet, we're much further along on the client side of things, because it's revenue impacting. They won't buy your product if it sucks, but you're forced to use software that sucks internally, but we shouldn't allow that, it's not going to be effective. You're not going to get the gain or the ROI that you expect. 70% of initiatives fail that touch the client, 70%.
Lori Rodriguez (00:42:36):
And why do they fail? Because they suck. They're not adoptable. So can you imagine how bad it is for associates? And that's why we feel it because it sucks. And we always think, oh, well, who cares? If it's pretty to use, well, guess what? Your users care. They won't use it. And they'll find ways around your software, which we all know. And so you have shadow IT, you have people who just refuse to use it, they build their own things, whatever it is.
Lori Rodriguez (00:43:00):
So, you know, what, why don't you just give into it, realize it upfront and understand what it takes. Stop thinking about how do we get this thing out the door to meet this functional requirements. Start thinking about really, that's not the end. The end is a little bit further. The end is when you have them adopting it and you're driving the results that you expected. We think over the line is the launch, over the line is the usage. And once we recognize that and we start measuring the usage piece of it as our criteria for success, as opposed to I successfully launched it, redefined success. And that'll change I hope, how we develop the software in the first place.
Rob Collie (00:43:46):
A note to the listeners here, you can tell Lori has been around a lot of software because she uses the insider technical term sucks. Cause that's what software does.
Lori Rodriguez (00:43:56):
I think that term came out the moment they launched the very first software that phrase came out and it's been part of software development ever since.
Rob Collie (00:44:08):
I remember meeting a customer one time when I was at Microsoft and then looking at us and saying, you know, we like to say that Microsoft software sucks less than the competitors, you know? And I was like, oh, what a compliment? I feel so warm inside. That's what we were aiming for.
Lori Rodriguez (00:44:24):
Microsoft was one of the main reasons why that phrase came out, software sucks. The first time I tried a Microsoft product that I said, "wow, who made this?" I knew it was Microsoft but I really was like, "did they buy a company? Acquire somebody was OneNote."
Rob Collie (00:44:39):
Yes. I knew you were going to say OneNote.
Lori Rodriguez (00:44:41):
That was the first time.
Rob Collie (00:44:42):
I knew it.
Lori Rodriguez (00:44:42):
First time.
Rob Collie (00:44:43):
I almost jumped ahead of you and said, you're going to say OneNote, aren't you? Right?
Lori Rodriguez (00:44:47):
It was awesome. I was like, this cannot be a Microsoft product. I'm like, they must've acquired this. And then I was like, well, find that development team and then clone them throughout Microsoft. So tell me, why did OneNote come out and why was that a good product that didn't suck or sucked a lot less?
Rob Collie (00:45:07):
All right, I don't know the whole story, but I'll tell you what I do now. First of all, the group program manager for OneNote and Microsoft, the program managers, you probably know this, but for the rest of everybody, the program managers, that was my job. We're part of the engineering team, but we were essentially a hybrid of design and engineering and also customer requirements and research and things like that. We would write all the specifications of what the software should do. We wouldn't actually implement anything, but if the software sucked, it was our fault. If there was a bug in the software that was the developers fault, the programmers or the testers or whatever, just an actual bug, but any design problem or capabilities or usability or any of that kind of stuff, that was all us. We were responsible for that. We made lots of mistakes and think about it. I was a computer science grad, what the hell business did I have in my early twenties?
Lori Rodriguez (00:45:58):
And you had no cognitive sciences background, either?
Rob Collie (00:46:01):
That's right. Well, hold on. Now as a little bit of an outlier and that I'd taken a couple of psychology courses, I was a philosophy, math and computer science triple major. So like you could already tell that I wasn't really all that into it from the technical side. So then I went to work for a monster technical company and that ivory tower like mathematical-mindset.
Rob Collie (00:46:21):
This is one of the reasons why software does suck, I think, is that in order to build it, you need the chess master type personalities that have been deep into code and deep into data structures and all that other stuff which is really kind of repulsive to most normal people. It's not a crowd that you want to go have a beer with typically. And they don't have a whole lot of real world experience. I like to say that they took me from college to Microsoft in a sealed underground tube so that I wouldn't polluted with any real-world knowledge on the way, from one campus to the next. And then sit you down in front of a desk and say, okay, now design software for the world, make decisions on behalf of multiple billions of adults who know more than you do. It's just so bizarre.
Lori Rodriguez (00:47:03):
And I'll tie this back to the book. So who were those people white males, nerdy white males, right? So then you got-
Rob Collie (00:47:11):
Check, check, and check. That's me. Yup.
Lori Rodriguez (00:47:13):
So you had code that doesn't recognize black skin in a camera, right? And you have software that doesn't recognize that moms handle computers differently than some guy sitting in front of a computer who played video games, their whole life. So you run into a world that is kind of like a left-handed person using right-handed scissors.
Rob Collie (00:47:39):
Yeah. It's this has gotten better. But I actually think at the time that I was doing this, like the late nineties, early 2000s, I think it's even worse. I think you're talking about an audience of people behind the scenes doing this at Microsoft who fundamentally didn't really understand human beings. There's a lot of refugees from humanity in the tech circles, at least back then-
Lori Rodriguez (00:48:01):
I love my tech buddies.
Rob Collie (00:48:04):
Yeah, I do too. But you, but you notice though-
Lori Rodriguez (00:48:09):
It's a different mindset, it's a different mindset.
Rob Collie (00:48:10):
It is, some of the most eccentric and difficult people that you'll ever meet are also the techies. You can assemble a group of friends at a social circle out of techies and it is awesome. But if you had to make your friends out of all of them, it might be a little, you might think a little differently.
Lori Rodriguez (00:48:28):
Who's getting kicked off the island first?
Rob Collie (00:48:30):
That's right. By the way, we won't go into this. But some of those people that I'm talking about that were difficult to get along with were in positions of enormous power at Microsoft. Let's leave it at that. So let's get to the book. First of all, what's the title of the book?
Lori Rodriguez (00:48:48):
It's called "We Want You To Stay- The Hidden Lives of 20 Women in STEM." STEM being, most of your audience knows, science, technology, engineering and math.
Rob Collie (00:48:57):
I guess I kind of always implicitly wondered if the M was medicine, but yeah. Okay. So it's math, the stem fields, is the book out yet?
Lori Rodriguez (00:49:06):
Nope. I'm hoping to get it out late spring 2021. So we're getting close down to the wire.
Rob Collie (00:49:12):
We're going to talk about the book a lot before I forget if you're listening to this and you're like, I really want to, I want to read this book someday. You can sign up, right? There's an email list.
Lori Rodriguez (00:49:22):
Go to stayinstem.com. So S T A Y I N S T E m.com, sign up, and you're early enough at this point that I'm also taking beta readers, so there's a free chapter out there and at the end of the chapter, there's a link to go provide me feedback. Look, I took this on like a product, so I'm building it with the audience. So that's why there's 20 women in stem. The bulk of the book is their autobiographies. And they're helping me decide where we focus and what we talk about and what's important and what's not.
Lori Rodriguez (00:49:56):
I'm interviewing dozens and dozens of young fathers, so men, women, women of all across all STEM across the world, in addition to the 20 women understanding, what are they up against? What are they running into? And in co-creating the book with this incredible audience of people. And now that the first chapter is in beta form, I want to know, is it boring? What did you find exciting about it? More of this, less of this, would you read another chapter and building it like I would do a product or any problem solving, using the frameworks that I've used to build products. So just applying that to the book.
Rob Collie (00:50:33):
Bringing that process discipline that we talked about earlier.
Lori Rodriguez (00:50:36):
Yes, exactly.
Rob Collie (00:50:37):
Unlike me who just sits down and says, all right, this isn't real until I start writing.
Lori Rodriguez (00:50:42):
Well, I did, I did a lot of that too.
Rob Collie (00:50:45):
So Stay In STEM, it's 20 stories, it's primarily 20 stories of women in STEM, sort of like their career stories.
Lori Rodriguez (00:50:51):
Not just their career. It is their stories, everything. It's the conversations they had with their husbands, it's the death of a child, a parent, the suicide of a partner, all of that, because that's what we bring. We bring all of that to the table. And we're human beings back to your point, whether you're men or women or you're human beings. And part of this is we need to understand that. There's three acts, the first act is why does this even matter, right? Like what is the current state? It's pretty dismal. I'll throw some numbers out, but why does it even matter? We started to touch on that a little bit and I'll give you a couple examples. I'll give you one right now, scooting around, looking for stats. I love data, actually. I suck at math, but actually I was really good at math as a young kid. And I was like, I'm done. I didn't see the need for it. Now. I wish I had spent a lot more time. Cause I love math actually.
Rob Collie (00:51:46):
Let's make sure we circle back around to that. I want to talk about that.
Lori Rodriguez (00:51:48):
Yeah, so I love stats and numbers and studies and digging into that. And so I have 800 rows of studies in a spreadsheet, somewhere that I use. So there's a current state. And then why does it matter? There's three reasons why. And the first one is pretty shocking. There's a whole book out there that I ran into that I just love. I'd already seen a couple of these numbers, but there's a whole book somebody did call "Invisible Woman." If you are in data, you have to read it. If you're a woman and you're reading that, grab a bottle of wine or tea or whatever, and you are going to get so mad, but you need to just chill to just calm down. So there's a lot of stats in that book. Like this one consumer reports did a study or was part of a study or that's where I read it.
Lori Rodriguez (00:52:32):
In a car crash, they take all the other variables away. How many drivers, level of what- Any car crash women are 17%, 17, one seven percent more likely to die in that car crash. And 73% more likely to have serious injury in that car crash. Why? Crash test dummies are set for the average male body that includes size and anatomy. So who made that decision? Who was in the room, who wasn't in the room? It's expensive, crashing a car, doing a car crash test is expensive. So you're going to do one or however many the government tells you, you have to do so to do one for men. And one for women you've doubled your cost. So who chose, guess what they chose? There are more women drivers in this world than there are men, driving is about equal, right? And whether you're driving or you're a passenger, it doesn't matter.
Lori Rodriguez (00:53:27):
The injuries are higher and there are stats all over like that. And so, and it gets worse for women of color. And I'll just give you a stat, it's related but separate. And when you think about artificial intelligence and you're building AI systems, think about autonomous vehicles and the choices an autonomous vehicle has to make. This camera does a real crap job of recognizing dark skin. Particularly if you have a dark skin and a light skin in the same photo, guess who it optimizes for. That's terrible, but that's Hey, I got crappy pictures. Now you put that same system and technology on an autonomous vehicle. You're going to end up with a lot of dead black and brown people before somebody recognizes it and does a report on it. And the old uproar and then we change that. Why don't we just make those decisions upfront in the best way to do that is to have diversity of visible minorities, as well as diversity of thought in those rooms where decisions are being made at every level, certainly at the top, but all the way down to the coders as well.
Lori Rodriguez (00:54:35):
Somebody has to go, wait a minute. Are you recognizing the color of skin it's disabilities too? I don't know if people are into game theory, again, nerdy thing. I kind of like.
Rob Collie (00:54:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (00:54:47):
I forget what it's officially called, but there's one about a train is going down the tracks and it's going-
Rob Collie (00:54:52):
The trolley problem.
Lori Rodriguez (00:54:53):
The trolley problem, it's going to hit somebody, right?
Rob Collie (00:54:55):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (00:54:55):
So you divert it. So let's say there's a bunch of people walking across and you got that trolley problem train. If the car keeps going, it's going to run somebody over. Well, it's going to divert probably to a non-human being. So it's going to crash someplace else. So you avoid the human-being, well, does it recognize somebody in a wheelchair as a human being?
Rob Collie (00:55:16):
Have you trained it?
Lori Rodriguez (00:55:17):
Yeah, it is going to get increasingly more important that we have people from diverse perspectives in the room where decisions are being made. So that's the first thing, really important. The second one is role models. Women make up 50% of the overall labor force, used to be less, but we are at parody in the labor force, but we're only 26% in STEM. So we got to do better on those numbers. And in some things like computer science, it's actually going backwards. We used to make up in the 60s, women were hidden figures. We were doing a lot because there was a data entry kind of stuff in, I forget the year, 1984, maybe somewhere around there, we were in the 37% range. We're at the 15% range now. So we're actually going backwards in computer sciences, pretty bad. So when you don't have role models, you don't think you have a career path in that organization. So that's a problem. And there's a lot of problems too around, I won't get into toxic environments because there's that kind of stuff too.
Lori Rodriguez (00:56:20):
But you just, you need role models. You need to say, oh, there's a path for me here. And you need to have that. So you need women in the decision-making levels, right? So up in the operating committee, on the boards and they need to be visible. You need more of them so people enter those fields in the first place so it's cyclical. It gets even worse, 26% of women in STEM, 53% of the 26% leave. So after 10 years, you're down to like 13% of the people.
Rob Collie (00:56:46):
Eek.
Lori Rodriguez (00:56:46):
Yeah, we leave. It's sucks to be a woman in STEM. It's just really, really freaking hard.
Rob Collie (00:56:52):
Okay. Let's zoom in on that really, for a moment. So the 20 something percent number, if you stride, it sort of like by cohort and you go like a number of years into career, that's the total of all human beings working in STEM. If you filter the audience to say with 10 plus years in field, then the numbers skew even further. Wow. Okay. So that I didn't absorb initially. That's amazing.
Lori Rodriguez (00:57:17):
Yep. More than half women, 10 plus years in leave.
Rob Collie (00:57:21):
Now you said something earlier that really spoke to me, which is that I like to say that the line between personal and professional is an illusion. It's a fiction invented to serve, I don't know managers, I have no idea. It wasn't invented to serve humanity. That's for sure. And so when I said career stories and you said, no, it's their life stories. I was like, oh, I just got corrected on my own principle, dammit. It's not supposed to happen. So when you said, why is it important, for me, the second reason, the one about if this is something that speaks to you, if STEM is something that is interesting and it seems like your calling, then what a shame to be one way or another discouraged from it. Cause again, coming back to that line between personal and professional-
Rob Collie (00:58:03):
... Are discouraged from it. Because again, coming back to that line between personal and professional, we're talking about human happiness here. Rewarding work, valuable work. And everyone should have the equal opportunity to that.
Rob Collie (00:58:13):
The first thing you were saying about, "If we don't have better representation in software development teams or whatever," right? "Then, we're going to make these, continue to make these sorts of mistakes." I agree with that.
Rob Collie (00:58:24):
At the same time, I wonder if that's a way of just letting me off the hook. It's implicitly saying, "The white males are never going to change. They're going to keep doing the crash test dummies at a certain height and weight. And they're just never going to wise up." That's the environment I'm coming from. I completely agree that that is a problem. And I had to wake up from that nightmare and become a human again. Even in the latter half of my time with Microsoft, something really changed in me, and I became somewhat of an alien. And the people who were doing OneNote were that kind of people. They had had that kind of transformation. Like Owen Braun? Owen Braun sat next to me in New Employee Orientation in July of 1996. I met him on my first day at Microsoft, his first day at Microsoft. And he went on to run OneNote.
Lori Rodriguez (00:59:10):
Cool.
Rob Collie (00:59:10):
And he did an amazing job.
Lori Rodriguez (00:59:12):
It was a transformational product for Microsoft.
Rob Collie (00:59:16):
Yep.
Lori Rodriguez (00:59:16):
It felt like, from the outside. It's interesting to hear the backstory.
Rob Collie (00:59:20):
Yeah. I agree with you at the time. I was like, "Wow! This is a piece of software that I actually like! I'm happy with this thing. What's going on here?"
Rob Collie (00:59:28):
And it wasn't just Owen. I mean, there was a whole team there. It was a really interesting cultural outlier, even within the Office team at the time. Oh, it just warms my heart to know that we were both thinking of OneNote when you said that.
Rob Collie (00:59:41):
Okay. So if 50% plus leave after a certain number of years, that's probably happening beforehand too, right? The initial number, the number that make it to a STEM job, even for a little while, it was probably already whittled down. You go back through school, you go back through everything, right? And there's that same, "Hey, let's call it attrition." There's an attrition process that... It's not like it starts on the first day at work. It started in third grade.
Lori Rodriguez (01:00:10):
Yeah. There's been a fair amount of people looking into women in STEM, girls in STEM, girls who code. Which is awesome, right? I love it. But there wasn't anybody who was looking at why, really focused on this huge problem of women leaving. And if you think of a bucket with holes in it, it doesn't matter how much water you're putting in. Those holes are big.
Lori Rodriguez (01:00:30):
And when girls don't see women in STEM fields, whether that's on television, in books, magazines, newspapers, or in the companies that they're applying for, or the programs that colleges that are trying to introduce them or the professors, they're like, "Oh! This is a guy thing. It's not for me" or whatever. "It's going to be hard." Or it's the CIO of NASA that you had pointed out. "There weren't girls in my class." It wasn't just in the class, right? This is another, "Aha!" When I go talk to my friends, they're not in STEM classes. They're not in science and engineering or math classes. I don't have as much to talk to them about. And they're talking about whatever they're taking in humanities or something else. And I become less relevant even in my own circles.
Lori Rodriguez (01:01:16):
So when she, the CIO of NASA, when she tested high for engineering, she was like, "Uh-uh (negative). No way. I know what that means. I'm going to be alone again." And she became an economics major instead. Turns out, that passion for technology and math and science is hard to get rid of. And her career just kept circling around that. And eventually, she became CIO of NASA, which you can read about in the book and you can download that chapter when you go sign up on that stayinstem.com.
Lori Rodriguez (01:01:45):
So yeah, it's attrition, all the way through. But again, I look at root cause analysis and I'm looking at it. This is a problem I want to solve. Where can we really be most effective? And I think we have to stop the stem, pun intended, of women leaving the STEM fields. And if we plug those holes, we'll actually accelerate the number of girls coming in.
Lori Rodriguez (01:02:10):
So to me, this gets down to root cause and the right place to spend some time and money. So my time and my money at this point is...
Rob Collie (01:02:22):
Well, that shows that you're committed, right?
Lori Rodriguez (01:02:24):
Oh, yeah. In both meanings of the word.
Rob Collie (01:02:27):
That's right.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:28):
I have a question and a comment for right now. And I'm not asking this question in any way to take away from the importance of what I would equate to customer retention. If you have a girl or a woman in STEM, you want to keep them there. I believe that is important. But I am curious, because I'm a data person. How many men leave?
Lori Rodriguez (01:02:49):
Yeah. Let me see. I have that stat.
Lori Rodriguez (01:02:51):
So women leave it twice the levels. I forget the number. So if it's 53%, men are leaving at like 20-something.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:58):
Okay. And the reason I ask is because I was curious of about the overall retention rate for our field. Because I think of things as burnout. And I think of things, like when Rob talks about what Microsoft used to be like. And how some people can just say, "You could end up working in tech but you're working for this horrible Facebook-like company." And you just say, "I can't do this anymore."
Lori Rodriguez (01:03:22):
It's a very good question, especially from a data perspective. Because you can tell a lot of lies with facts.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:27):
Yeah. And that's what I was getting at. So knowing that's twice the rate between just those two genders is relevant.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:35):
So here's my comment. And my comment is actually to Rob. Because Rob? See, Rob used to tell me how he had solved the problem of women in technology. He had solved it.
Rob Collie (01:03:46):
Oh, I'm being set up here. This is what being set up sounds like. Go ahead.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:50):
So he used to tell me, though. Every class he would run, half the audience were women. Everywhere he went, his classrooms were, more often than not filled with women, beyond the, what I would say is, I think 30% of IT or 30% of technology workforce is women? Something like that? So anyway, he had a higher rate of that.
Thomas LaRock (01:04:14):
So I'm just wondering, Rob, are you still seeing a high number?
Rob Collie (01:04:19):
Yeah. I haven't taught one in a little while. It's been a year since I've taught a class. But I spent 10 years teaching essentially Power BI. Pretty technical. Pretty technical topic. Data modeling, star schemas, and all kinds of stuff. And my classes, oftentimes, it's volunteers, people who signed up for this class, they went out of their way to sign up for it. Other times, it's like a hostage situation where some manager decided, "We're going to teach the team."
Rob Collie (01:04:48):
But either way, I think, over time, it's been slightly more than 50% female, the students in my classes. So in terms of quantity, we're at parity in these classes. And you go, " Okay. Well, all right. Well, what about quality?" Well, again, every class, in the back of my head, I'm always identifying who I think is the best student over the course of those two or three days. Like, "Who's going to run with it the most?" And again, it's 50/50. Again, maybe a little bit more female. It runs with the population that I see in the audience. It's not like the dudes are just shining by comparison. I mean, I've always been just so happy about this, that it's, whatever the filters are, the attrition factors and things for STEM, when it comes time for these classes, that filter isn't being applied somehow. We're missing that filter.
Lori Rodriguez (01:05:41):
Did you think you were doing anything different? Were other classes getting the same kind of 50%?
Rob Collie (01:05:48):
Well, I don't know. You're right. They're possible. And of course, this would be really a really nice, self-serving narrative if there were something about the way that we described the classes or advertised the classes or whatever, ahead of time, that led to this, there might be a sampling bias, right? And that sampling bias is us, the way that we talk about things. That is one of the things that we do is, we talk about technology in a much more approachable way. Almost reflects my journey of being a technologist-turned-human over the course of my career at Microsoft and how much better things got when I became human. So we stuck with that. We bring that with us. But let's ignore that. Because I don't really think that's the case. Because even in the hostage situations, this is the case.
Rob Collie (01:06:32):
Let's talk about Excel for a moment. In the course of working in business, in any role, any sort of office role in business, you can think of it as a random particle thing. Like you're just bouncing around. You're this molecule, bouncing around. And sooner or later, you're going to collide with Excel. And most molecules, most people, when they collide with the Excel molecule, they bounce off. Fast and hard, like twice as fast, the other way, as they came in.
Rob Collie (01:07:04):
But some freaks, they stick. And that moment, who sticks to Excel versus bounce off. That thing? This is what I believe. And I don't know what the why here is. But I do believe, with some strong factual basis, that the people who stick to Excel do not skew male, that it is like 55/45 female.
Rob Collie (01:07:27):
And I like to think; this is where I start speculating as to why. Okay? I consider that first thing to be fact. Everything after this is speculation. The idea that, "I don't want to do the same thing over and over and over again." Like, "I don't want to manually repeat steps. I don't want to do meaningless work." I don't see why that would skew male. Right? Things that solve problems, like solving a mystery? All these things are things that you can get behind. Whereas, in math class, in high school or whatever, right? You have to absorb calculus as something, the reasons for knowing it, you have to take those on faith. Here I am, years later, working...
Rob Collie (01:08:10):
Basically, I do math for a living. We're primarily a BI company. And everyone was right in high school. We're never going to use this shit. I've never used it. None of it. A tremendous swath of my academic career was a lie that I fell for. But with something like Excel, you can just see the practical benefit. It's right there. At that moment, all the societal filters, whatever; they're just not there.
Rob Collie (01:08:34):
The one thing that is sad about this; and this is a really, I think, an interesting topic for discussion; is that, despite what I've been telling you, that it's like 55/45 women in these classes, and it's 55/45, best student is female in these classes; so you're checking all the boxes of what you would want to hear, what you'd want to be reality; only like 15% of the people who apply for jobs with us are female.
Lori Rodriguez (01:08:58):
So I'm going to throw some hypotheses out there.
Rob Collie (01:09:00):
Oh, I like hypotheses.
Lori Rodriguez (01:09:02):
Could be completely wrong. But they're based in some fact base, right? So I'm making some dot connections here that may not, should not be connected.
Lori Rodriguez (01:09:11):
So we talk about confidence, this notion of confidence. I'll give away one of the things in the book that I'm working around. Don't know what the type exactly, the labels yet. So this is new. We've got self-confidence, which is, "I've got self-confidence," right? But with women, there's a confidence and then there's imposter syndrome, right? Like, "I'm in this place and maybe I shouldn't be." So that was a term somebody came up with to take a subcategory of confidence. It didn't seem to fit the model, what everybody typically thought, of confidence.
Lori Rodriguez (01:09:44):
I think there's something else. Self-confidence and imposter syndrome is something you're feeling about yourself inside. When you're a visible minority, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that's happening that falls outside of imposter syndrome and self-confidence. You can know your shit and you can know that, that role that you're applying for, there is no one on the planet who's better qualified for you. Right? So you've got this level of self-confidence. You don't have imposter syndrome. You're not... Overconfidence, too. But let's just say that's not the case. You really have a good bead on reality. There's a whole bucket of stuff we're not talking about. It's like, I can know that I can do that job. What I don't know is, "Do you believe I can? Do you believe that I can do this job?"
Lori Rodriguez (01:10:35):
And it's not only that weight of not knowing. You, then, can't pull apart what is reality and unreality in that framework. When you don't get that job or you're not given that promotion or you're not getting that high-visible project, you don't know if it's something you can control, right? Like, is this, "Am I doing a good job?" I'll get around to why this is important with the Excel. "What can I control? And what can't I control?"
Lori Rodriguez (01:11:02):
Someone came up with this really cool term. I don't know if it's that yet. But I like it. It's called quantum confidence. And she was like, "Because you're confident and you're unconfident at the same time." I'm like, "That's..."
Rob Collie (01:11:13):
Schrodinger's confidence.
Lori Rodriguez (01:11:15):
Yeah! There you go! All right! Cool!
Lori Rodriguez (01:11:18):
So what does that fall into this? Well, women don't apply. And I'll add another dot. Women don't apply for a position till they feel they can do that job at a 100% and men don't. So if you don't feel you can do that job at 100%, you're going to go try to get those skills.
Lori Rodriguez (01:11:34):
So are they going to these courses? Not the hostage situation. But are they going out to upskill, to gain a level of confidence to apply? And that's the self-confidence to apply. But then, they're not actually gaining that to the degree that they're applying. So they're getting the skill set but there's still being something holding them back from actually applying for positions.
Lori Rodriguez (01:11:56):
But I think those two factors may have something to do with what you're seeing.
Rob Collie (01:12:01):
I believe that.
Rob Collie (01:12:02):
Let me ask you a piece of advice on this topic. So something about us is, I think, unusual, is the screening process that we use, the interview process that we use for hiring. In fact, our PR company has seized on this and we've written now multiple articles for various outlets about our hiring process because it is so different. There's a lot about it that would be interesting to talk about. But we have lots to talk about. So I'm not going to drag us through all the details.
Rob Collie (01:12:27):
But here's the thing that I think that's relevant here, is that it's incredibly selective. I think we have like a 2% or 3% pass rate on this process. And it's actually, without going into much detail, it's actually very, very, very, intentionally very objective. It's a test. And it simulates the job that you actually have to do. So it takes a tremendous amount of all the human judgment out of it. It's pretty close to blind in a lot of ways. But we never see the person. By the time we talk to them, face-to-face, on camera, or whatever, we've already decided we're hiring them.
Lori Rodriguez (01:13:01):
Do you black out the names too? Or just the...
Rob Collie (01:13:04):
No, we don't. We don't. But you either get this thing right or you don't. We really have removed... You never remove 100% of the judgment, right? We're like 98% judgment's been removed. We know whether someone can do the job or not. And a lot of thought went into this process to do what it does. Some of it's secret even. Like if we talk too much about it, it won't work anymore.
Rob Collie (01:13:27):
So when I'm teaching these classes, right? A lot of times, people come up to me, in the hallway or whatever, like during breaks. And there's, "What about coming to work for you?" The one thing that I hate about our interview is that it discourages 97% to 98% of the applicants. We turn away really good people. Because we need to unquestionably know that you're excellent. The type of work that we do, oftentimes, you're out there on an island, one person, dealing with some very difficult situations. In order to move fast, you can't have a huge team with you at all times. So we have some really stringent requirements we have for the job.
Rob Collie (01:14:07):
So on one hand, I'm always wanting to tell the woman standing in front of me, asking me. It's like, "Come on! Apply for a job!" Right? But then, at the back of my head, I know, 97% of the time, we tell people they aren't good enough. I hate that. I just hate it.
Rob Collie (01:14:25):
So if I suddenly went out in the world and actually convinced women to apply at the same rate that men do; let's say I managed to wave that magic wand; I'm actually weaponizing a bad message.
Lori Rodriguez (01:14:36):
If it's fair and you tell them up front? "Look. I'd love for you to apply. Just letting you know, 97%." People want a chance to prove themselves.
Rob Collie (01:14:45):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:14:45):
And we're not being given a chance. So that's one. So the one thing is, "Yeah, go ahead!" Tell that person, up front. Just say, "Look. This process is rigorous." Whatever.
Rob Collie (01:14:53):
I do that.
Lori Rodriguez (01:14:54):
Or, you could just say, "If you want to, that's fine. I don't discuss this kind of thing. I teach the class," blah, blah, blah. Whatever you want to come up, to either, to pass everybody, or you can say the same thing.
Rob Collie (01:15:05):
I tell the truth. And I encourage them to apply. But here's the thing. I'm cognizant of whatever this dark matter is, this mystery, this other kind of confidence or whatever, right? If this person I'm talking to is trying to figure it out, they're hovering on the edge of, "Do I belong or not?" If a man is less likely to be feeling that way?
Lori Rodriguez (01:15:28):
Yeah. Totally.
Rob Collie (01:15:30):
And the woman is more likely to be feeling that way, I think that our interview might cause more harm to someone who's on that border. But I still do it. I'm like, "Look. This is the numbers. I would absolutely love for you to apply. I want you to succeed."
Lori Rodriguez (01:15:43):
You said the fragility isn't in the trying and failing. It's the belief that you can, right?
Rob Collie (01:15:49):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lori Rodriguez (01:15:50):
The belief that somebody else has in you. You can talk about, "Look. I believe you can do it. You may not be ready right now but you could do it. So apply, see where you are."
Rob Collie (01:15:58):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:15:59):
That's a very different message than, "you suck at math," you know? Or whatever.
Lori Rodriguez (01:16:04):
So there needs to be advocates and allies so, when there aren't women in the room, somebody is throwing their name in the ring. And a notion of, "Give people a chance. Tell them you believe in them."
Lori Rodriguez (01:16:17):
The other thing is, you can go out and aggressively recruit from different places.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:22):
This is very similar to how, when you're organizing a conference and you find out the conference has no women speakers. And you go to the organizers and they say, "We just can't find anybody." And you're like, "You're not looking. You really not looking." You can't find anybody? That says something, either about you or about your event maybe not being a safe space. So there's so much to unpack with that.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:46):
But here's my question. My daughter, high school senior, she's been accepted to all the schools she wants to go to. What should I be doing for her at this moment in time?
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:00):
The dishes.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:01):
Yeah?
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:01):
And the laundry.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:02):
Okay.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:03):
And the housework.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:04):
So I'm going to disagree with a lot of that. Because those are basic skills she'll need in life later on for herself.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:11):
No, no, no. You. You as dad.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:12):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:12):
You as dad.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:13):
Yeah?
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:13):
Need to be seen.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:16):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:16):
Because this gets to why women stay.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:18):
Okay. So I do do all those things though.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:20):
Awesome. Great dad. At the level...
Thomas LaRock (01:17:31):
Okay. But she also needs to do those things.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:32):
Oh, clearly. Clearly. You need to learn how to do that on your own.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:32):
Okay. Just so we're clear.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:32):
Yeah. No. So we're clear.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:32):
Just so more clear. She needs to do those things.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:32):
She needs to be able to boil water.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:33):
Yeah. Yes.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:34):
What else, though? How can I be of the most help for her over this next stretch of her life in order to give her that foundation? And she may choose STEM and then leave for some other reason. But I just want to make sure or that I'm doing what I can control, right?
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:55):
I love it. It's a great question.
Lori Rodriguez (01:17:57):
And I was joking. But also, a huge reason why women leave is the disproportionate amount of hours that they have to spend when life gets complicated. Doing the childcare, the elder care, the household management. We'll talk about that separately. That is a big piece.
Lori Rodriguez (01:18:15):
There's something that you said that actually is key that sounds like you're already there. And that is, the ability for her to be independent and feel like she can do things like cook and travel and whatever. And the belief that their parents have in their children and that their children know. So doing things like, when they're little, but this is something you can still do now.
Lori Rodriguez (01:18:36):
One of the women, an astronaut in the book, she recalls being a little girl. And her father was a pilot. He had a plane in Farmville, town of 1,100. And she'd go in the hanger. And he'd say, "Hand me the wrench. Can you fix this? Bang on that." So he had her, as 5, 6, 7, as long as she can remember, she was helping her dad build his plane. And he told her she could do everything. And he not only told her, "You could be anything you want." He gave her responsibilities at a young age that, to this day, that carries with her. And looked up at the stars with him at night and said, "Wow! Imagine what it would be like to be up there one day?" Because this was around the time of the Space Race. And said, "Yeah! You could do that. Of course, you could be an astronaut!" Even though there were no women astronauts, and even though you had to be a fighter pilot; so you couldn't even be that because women weren't allowed in combat positions; her father says, "You can do anything." But then, he backed it up by believing that she could.
Lori Rodriguez (01:19:38):
And we have to be, as parents, you have this dual conflicting feelings. "I have to keep them safe and coddle them." But then, at the other hand, you have to toss them out in the world and go, "You can swim." My dad used to, we'd stand on the side and he'd go, "Good! Jump! Jump! I'll catch you." And then, when you'd jump in the water, and he'd back away. And you'd go under and you're drowning and whatever. And that's how we were taught to learn to swim. So literally, push you in the pool and you're drowning. And he just figured, "You're going to swim. But if you are drowning, I'll catch you." As parents, we have to figure that out.
Lori Rodriguez (01:20:10):
So as your daughter's going through this, she's going to go through, especially if she does STEM, and engineering in particular, engineering's freaking hard. You're going to fail classes or get grades you've never seen before. You have to say, "Stick it out! You can do it." Don't ever leave because you don't think you can. Leave because you decide you don't like it anymore and not like it because it's too hard. But just, "Work hard and you can do it. Be okay with failing a little bit." And as parents, allow them to do that and be there to catch them if it's too hard.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:43):
So here's her current field of interest. Forensics accounting.
Lori Rodriguez (01:20:49):
Cool.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:49):
Right? I didn't even know this was a thing.
Lori Rodriguez (01:20:51):
Cool. That's cool.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:52):
And we're at this school. And we're in the bookstore, which the school still has, for some stupid reason. She pulls out this book. She goes, "Yeah. Here's..." And it just says forensics accounting on it. I'm like... So that's like FBI stuff. That's like real...
Thomas LaRock (01:21:07):
Anyway. Here's the question. Is accounting a STEM career choice?
Lori Rodriguez (01:21:12):
It's a STEM field. It's math. So you're doing math. Yeah, absolutely. You're doing the math piece.
Lori Rodriguez (01:21:16):
There's a woman in the book. Oh, she's just amazing. At 25, she was a CFO. 25 years old. CFO of a celebrity law firm that everybody's, you would know the name of. And then, at 26, one of the clients asked her to be CFO for their organization. And you're like, "26?" If she were a guy, we'd be celebrating, right? "Prodigy, prodigy!" The whispers in the hallways, the whole thing. But it was really, really hostile. This woman is, talk about confidence. I've never met anyone with as much confidence as this woman. She went to Montessori schools. You just figure it out. You just go find the thing you like to do today as a eight year old or whatever it is. You go, "Go do it. Here are things. And we'll kind of help you out."
Lori Rodriguez (01:22:02):
And so, she started doing internships in high school, on her own. And so, all through college, I was like, "How did you get all those internships? They must've had a really good internship program at your school." She said, "No. I found all those on my own." So every time she wanted to learn something new, she moved on. It was like, "Okay. I learned what I needed from this job. Now, to move on to the next, I want to learn this."
Lori Rodriguez (01:22:23):
So I added up her experience in internships as if it were a regular pathway on a resume. And she was at like 34, 35 years old. So a 35-year-old CFO is like a normal thing. She had just condensed all that, starting in high school, with the jobs that she'd had.
Lori Rodriguez (01:22:42):
So forensic accounting, I think, the accounting piece of it, for sure, she can probably find some internships. And don't wait for the school. And give her the confidence that, "It's okay to fail." And that you believe in her. And have her find people to surround her with. One of the things that, a consistent thing that came up, was a board of advisors, career advisors. So find people, have her start collecting people; friends, family, maybe friends of yours; that she can turn to for career advice. Do those sound reasonable?
Thomas LaRock (01:23:18):
Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you.
Rob Collie (01:23:20):
Tom, I've got a suggestion as well.
Thomas LaRock (01:23:22):
Yes, sir.
Rob Collie (01:23:23):
And this is, of course, me talking, my book. But it's the truth. Power BI is amazing for that stuff. We have found fraud when we weren't looking for it. That thing we talked about earlier, like all the different silos of information in an organization? A lot of times, fraud utilizes that siloization to hide its tracks. They just know that, you're looking at this one report, you're never going to see it. But when you suddenly cross-reference, when you splice across all of those silos, and you have the ability to drill down? I mean, oh my gosh. It is so hard. It's interesting. Data quality issues, people aren't recording the data properly, that something's going wrong in the source data systematically, that's not intentional? That leaps off the page so quickly as well. So it's almost frustrating, how quickly those sorts of things surface themselves. Because now, you've got to go deal with something way upstream, nothing to do with the reporting that you were trying to do. That same sort of characteristic, it applies to basically any sort of anomaly. Anomalies have a very hard time hiding. We've caught people stealing. We were just trying to do some sort of product mix analysis.
Rob Collie (01:24:39):
So I don't think the industry of forensic accounting has caught onto this either. The traditional training mechanisms and classes and all of that aren't going to feed you this. Because it's just so many steps removed from the way it's been done. So this would be an out-of-band. You could throw the word disruptive on it. Whatever you want. I really think that tools like Power BI are coming for the forensic accounting. And it's one of those things, like we were talking about. You can see it coming. You have the foresight. You can see it. But the depth perception is questionable. You have no idea when it's actually going to happen.
Rob Collie (01:25:15):
Okay. Back to the book. You started talk a little bit about how you selected people. You didn't just go with your first-degree network, which is kind of what I thought you would do, right? You already knew everybody that you wanted. It was just a question of having to pick the 20. Is it true that you went looking for people that you had not known before?
Lori Rodriguez (01:25:32):
Absolutely. I'll take a little bit of a step backwards and say how the book came about.
Lori Rodriguez (01:25:35):
So back in 2012, a mutual friend put some CIOs that she knew together to have a networking session every four to six weeks. So we just got on calls. And we're like, "Okay. You're friends of Janet." Like, "Who..." So we just explained who we were. Because it was a random collection of women CIOs. And I was not a CIO. Well, I used to be. But I was a friend of Janet's. And she brought me in. And we explained our stories. And we were fascinated. Because the myth is, there's this linear path that you go on and you knew that's what you were going to be. So everybody started their story with, "Well, I didn't intend to be in IT or a CIO" or whatever. And then, we went through the paths and we found them fascinating. And being that these were CIOs? Clearly, they have a lot of ambition. They're like, "Okay. So what are we going to do with this information? It's nice that we're getting together but we want to be productive."
Lori Rodriguez (01:26:28):
So the idea was to start a book. And we're like, "Okay. Well, on what?" "Well, women in STEM. Or women in technology." And we'd joke around like titles. And one of them was, "There's No Line at the Ladies' Room at an IT Conference." So that was like one of the titles. I'm still playing with that one.
Lori Rodriguez (01:26:48):
But then, we started... Well, the problem we wanted to solve was what we had talked about. There were finally people looking at getting women into STEM but we saw far too many of our colleagues falling out. And at that level, at the C-suite level, every room they-
Lori Rodriguez (01:27:03):
And at that level, at the C-suite level, every room they ever went into, they were the only woman in the room, the only woman in the room. Being a CIO is a very lonely job, in and of itself. Being a woman or a woman of color, the burden is really tremendous. You're invisible and at the same time, you're highly visible. You can't make mistakes because you're visible, right? You're just this, everyone's looking at you for that. And you don't get a pass on them. You have to do a lot more work. All these other burdens. So people drop out and they don't get to that level. And then, you're the only one.
Lori Rodriguez (01:27:34):
So we started this book. And then, the book Lean In came out. We're like, "Oh! Okay. Cool. It's all going to be fine." Oddly enough, I was doing a laptop upgrade around nine months ago and I came across my notes. I was like, "Oh, damn! Let me go check those numbers out." We didn't improve over that eight years. In technology, at least. We actually went backwards. The numbers were even worse. So I said, "That's it. I'm doing it." And I just started working out on this book.
Lori Rodriguez (01:28:01):
So clearly, I went back to one of the women I'd stayed friendly with. Which, at the time, she was the Deputy CIO of the EPA and went on to become the CIO of NASA. And that's where I started. And some of these other people that I knew. And about three or four people in, I was like, "I'm heavily loaded with CIO and tech." And as I'm thinking about and researching the book, I'm like, "This is exactly what everybody else falls into. You go to your status quo and what you know." So I did. I intentionally went out to find, I put in a metric, right? Like, "I'm going to have at least half the women in this book be women of color." So I'm going to be intentional about the numbers. And I'm going to measure it every which way from Sunday so I keep track of who I'm reaching out to and how much.
Lori Rodriguez (01:28:43):
And then, I just started to look up, fish where the fish are. I started to look at associations and who's writing, who was in articles, et cetera. And also, I was like, I didn't want to lean too heavily on the articles because those people are already getting fame. It's great that the women who had 23andMe and YouTube are there, right? It is amazing. But not that many people have Stanford professors as parents, right? And grew up in Silicon Valley.
Lori Rodriguez (01:29:13):
And one of the problems with the Lean In book was, that's awesome, Cheryl Sandberg. Thank God you wrote that. But it's unapproachable for many women. And they're like, "That's not me." I have Stanford graduates in there. I have people who dropped out of high school. I have community college. They went to community college. Myself, I dropped out of college. I was like, "Not for me." They were telling me what to think and I wanted to know how to think. And so, I was like, "I'm out. I'm going to go figure that out on my own."
Lori Rodriguez (01:29:40):
So I wanted the book to be, anybody should go to STEM. Like we all should. If you're interested at all, I wanted it to be approachable. And I wanted to tell stories, at least one of the women in the book could be some way relevant to them, regardless of where they were born or the educational path they took because they were privileged to do so. Or maybe they weren't. Some people couldn't afford it. And all they could do is community college. Maybe they made a mistake along the way. And how do you recover? Or maybe they left the workforce and came back. I wanted all of those stories in there.
Lori Rodriguez (01:30:21):
And I've done a pretty good job. It's pretty cool. And I also wanted to cross STEM. So again, I was really heavily IT-focused and technology-focused. I'm like, "I have to get some women in gaming in here." So I found this unbelievable story; should be a movie. This CEO of Future Club. Used to be at Riot Games and Lab Zero. Skullgirls, League of Legends, and things like that. It's just, the stories are just incredible. So I got gamers. I've got people on the aspergers spectrum, just all, the whole spectrum. I've got... Today, in the US, I have no idea where you were born. So I have women who were born in Ghana. And so, Ghanaian American. I have a Nigerian Canadian.
Lori Rodriguez (01:31:03):
And I hate to bucket people. But I also have a colleague. I knew her story was amazing. It really was. South African. Grew up in and still lives in Soweto. So as an eight year old, playing outside in the schoolyard; this is just prior to Nelson Mandela being released. And military vehicles pull up to the school yard and tear-gas eight year olds. She sat on the playground. So, yeah. It's just incredible. So going in that environment and becoming CIO in that environment as a woman is just insane.
Lori Rodriguez (01:31:34):
So a lot of really cool, as I said, life stories. At the same time, it has this STEM piece to it that, I just wanted to show, anybody has a place here, if you want. So one of the women said, "It's a book about women in STEM that has nothing to do about STEM." And I'm like, "Yeah. Maybe that's not a bad way to look at it."
Rob Collie (01:31:52):
Stuff like that is always; to me, anyway; a sign that you're on the right track.
Rob Collie (01:31:56):
I really like that you deliberately made sure that this wasn't like the pedigreed all-stars. Did you see the movie Ratatouille?
Lori Rodriguez (01:32:03):
I love that movie. People say, "What is your favorite movie?" I'm like, "Ratatouille." And then, there's another movie that's, it's Japanese with American subtitles. Emperor's Tailor or something like that. I'm like, "Those are my two favorite movies."
Rob Collie (01:32:15):
Really?
Lori Rodriguez (01:32:16):
They're completely opposite. Love Ratatouille.
Rob Collie (01:32:19):
So then, you know where I'm going, right? Which is, I've only seen that movie once. But it made an impression on me that I keep coming back to, thinking about it, many years later, which is always a sign that something was a beautiful piece of art, or at least it touched me. Like the chef, the hero chef that's like, that's not even alive anymore. He's like passed away in the story. He's always like, "Anyone can cook." His whole philosophy, that chef, that this young rat bought into, this wasn't some pedigree priesthood. It wasn't off-limits. It was a talent that lies dormant in people across every demographic.
Rob Collie (01:32:58):
And the movie goes out of its way symbolically. It's a rat. It's not even a person, right? It's something that we all associate with dirty. Like, "You can't have rats in a kitchen." That's how beautifully constructed this story is. The critic, the snobby, snobby critic, who has a thawing and an awakening as a result of this experience and becomes a believer as opposed to the villain. It's just like, "Oh!" It's just this most touching story. And I've written a lot of blog articles over the years. I don't blog as much as I used to. But this, "Anyone can cook."
Rob Collie (01:33:33):
What I was talking about it earlier, with the data stuff, with the Excel stuff, right? It's kind of like, it's that dynamic. I don't care whether you identified as a math person in high school. I don't care whether that spoke to you. It spoke to me. But it was really, in retrospect, in a really hollow way. It was just a way to have a false identity for me. It was a way that I could tell myself that I was good. I almost like wielded it as a weapon against other people though. I wasn't very nice about it.
Lori Rodriguez (01:34:02):
You were ego.
Rob Collie (01:34:03):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:34:03):
You were the critic ego at that point.
Rob Collie (01:34:05):
That's right. And it's been a long journey for me. So now, I'm the one that's going, "Yeah. I actually prefer you if you weren't into calculus in high school." I don't understand why you would be so sick. It's almost like something's wrong with you if you were into calculus in high school. It takes one to know one, you know?
Lori Rodriguez (01:34:24):
I hadn't thought about it. But I love that movie. And I tell my kids all the time about that movie. And they know I love that movie. And now that you mentioned it, that's what I was going for, absolutely going for, in this book, and why I was very purposeful and intentional in the stories or the people I reached out to.
Lori Rodriguez (01:34:45):
And I had a super-high hit rate. I'd send an email or I'd ping people on LinkedIn. And I had like 90% of the people I asked at least talk to me. And I only had one person say no. And it was because they felt they weren't good enough and they gave me another person's name. And I'm like, "I'm going to come back to you and interview you because you are good enough. You're pretty cool or I wouldn't have reached out to you." But I did.
Lori Rodriguez (01:35:09):
So everyone wanted to tell their story once they understood why. I didn't realize it at the time. But, yeah. That movie, that influence of, "Anyone can cook." Not that anyone can cook. I think ego explains it at the end. A cook can come from anywhere.
Rob Collie (01:35:24):
Right. I talk about it in our world as the data gene. And I do believe this, based on what I've observed, that it cuts across every demographic at about the same fraction. It's not everyone. It's like one out of 16.
Rob Collie (01:35:37):
I actually have a number of different research methods that have yielded the same result. Like one out of 16 is the high watermark. It's at most, one out of 16. The data gene can lie dormant for a very long time. You wouldn't know you had it. And then, that collision with Excel. That's usually, that's not the only story, but it's the majority of stories. Because that's the place where you would encounter it. You hit it that first day and you start getting this weird, twitchy, itchy feeling. Like, "Mm!" I agree. Like 15 out of 16 in the data world can't cook or don't want to. Not interested. They're not interested at all. Maybe they could. But interest is a big thing, right? It doesn't speak to them.
Rob Collie (01:36:18):
But, yeah. I completely agree. The cook can come from anywhere in data. And so, this has been an ongoing fascination of mine. Like, "I want this to be true. I've observed it to be true. And now, I want it to be as true in the numbers that we see. My experience dictates it should be."
Rob Collie (01:36:36):
And this is why the overwhelming weight towards the male applicants for jobs at our company bothers me. I mean, this is, in a way, we're staffed in a way that is not at all the tradition for an IT services consulting firm, for a BI consulting firm. We are overwhelmingly staffed with people who came from the business, for instance. We're staffed with people who can be the requirements-gatherer, the communicator, the architect, and the developer, all in one.
Lori Rodriguez (01:37:05):
So you liked, in Renee, the CIO of NASA, you liked in her story?
Rob Collie (01:37:09):
Yeah. Yes.
Lori Rodriguez (01:37:10):
That you picked up on that?
Rob Collie (01:37:11):
Oh, yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:37:12):
She came back to math because of requirements gathering.
Rob Collie (01:37:14):
Yeah. Actually, I have a fight-starter, if I go to particular conferences. I have a number of things I can say that I believe to be true that will immediately start a fight. Which shouldn't, right? But they do. Which is, I'll tell people that, in a traditional BI project, business intelligence project, greater than 99% of the elapsed time, the cost is in requirements transmission. The whole project. The time where the hands are spent on the keyboard, typing the right code, the stuff that sticks, the reports that actually eventually come out the other end, if you just sat down and typed those out and just typed that code, it'd be over in an eye blink. It's all requirements.
Lori Rodriguez (01:37:53):
And do you think that's the right number? Do you think that's the right ratio? That it should be mostly requirements and less code?
Rob Collie (01:37:59):
No. Because the problem is that it's so wasteful, that 99%. And if you measure it in its absolute terms? I don't know how many person months it'll end up being. But sometimes, it might even be like 100 person months. It doesn't have to be that. It could be like six person days. It's the tools.
Rob Collie (01:38:18):
And this is the thing. I was part of building the old wave of BI tools at Microsoft. And then, I was part of building the new wave. And I also just lucked out in that I'd also had a chance at Microsoft to be someone who had applied the old BI tools.
Lori Rodriguez (01:38:32):
So when you say requirements, you're talking about the old waterfall document-type requirements in?
Rob Collie (01:38:38):
That's right. That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (01:38:38):
Okay, okay.
Rob Collie (01:38:39):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:38:39):
All right. Got it. Okay.
Rob Collie (01:38:40):
And the old tools drove the waterfall methodology in BI.
Lori Rodriguez (01:38:46):
Yeah. "We're going to write a document that's 400 pages long."
Rob Collie (01:38:51):
Right.
Lori Rodriguez (01:38:51):
"About this thing that we're eventually going to start building."
Rob Collie (01:38:53):
Right. Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:38:54):
"Which means, then, we're so invested in that document, that all the requirements who wrote in there that, when we find out, midway through, as you always do through a project, or at the start, that they're wrong?"
Rob Collie (01:39:05):
Right.
Lori Rodriguez (01:39:05):
"It's too bureaucratic to change and we're vested in it too much."
Rob Collie (01:39:09):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:39:09):
"And we're just going to produce it and launch it, damn it."
Rob Collie (01:39:11):
That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (01:39:11):
That kind of process you're talking about?
Rob Collie (01:39:13):
That's exactly right. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:39:15):
And there's so many myths in the requirements document, right? One myth is that the people who are providing the requirements will transmit them properly. The next myth is that the people receiving them will record them properly. The third myth is that the person that they give it to to implement will receive it in a transmission properly. And the fourth myth was that the requirements were correct in the first place.
Lori Rodriguez (01:39:36):
But there's a lot of plausible deniability built into a requirements document.
Rob Collie (01:39:41):
Totally. Oh, yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:39:42):
So no one along that path will take any responsibility for having caused the damage that that final product, when it's produced, create.
Rob Collie (01:39:50):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's right. And if you're outsourcing this, if you're hiring a BI firm, like one of our traditional competitors? They love it when this goes wrong. They've been billing the whole way. Now, you're out in the deep water. You can't turn back now. So that change order, the addendum to the contract, is going to get signed. And you're going to keep billing.
Rob Collie (01:40:08):
I believe; and our results over the last 5 to 10 years bear this out; that any BI project? We can be looking at your first tangible results, not a mock-up. You're not done. But within five business days, you can be seeing your first output.
Lori Rodriguez (01:40:26):
You've got to get to the output as quickly.
Rob Collie (01:40:30):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:40:30):
It's just like any other product's development process. You've got to get to your MVP so you can test it and break it.
Rob Collie (01:40:34):
That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (01:40:34):
You want to break it early.
Rob Collie (01:40:35):
Right.
Lori Rodriguez (01:40:36):
The longer you wait to break it, the more costly it is, because you've invested more time and money in building that thing. And the more vested people are going to be in saying, to keep persevering down this path anyway, the more objections you're going to have to pivoting or changing. So if you can get something out the door very quickly, with a minimal time, minimal effort, and break it? As long as you're going to break it. Because I see a lot of people doing Agile or MVP. It's just condensed waterfall. Like...
Rob Collie (01:41:04):
Yeah. It's just a...
Lori Rodriguez (01:41:04):
It's just, we, instead of taking months, we did it in a shorter timeframe, but you still get no chance to iterate, based on the feedback you have.
Rob Collie (01:41:11):
Correct.
Lori Rodriguez (01:41:11):
So they're still as vested in that thing that they launched as before. If you're doing that, you're getting it out in five days, with the idea that you're going to iterate based on what you find, you've built in the fact in those five days that you're going to spend more time iterating after. It's not like... Yeah, the expectation, it is done.
Rob Collie (01:41:30):
It's not done. And we have a saying, which is, again, "Learn the hard way from experience." Human beings do not know what they need until they've seen what they asked for. So even if you manage to achieve perfect requirements transmission, which has happened never. If you got there, the first thing they're going to go is, "Oh! Right! This doesn't actually answer the question that I thought it would. But now, I know what we need to do." And you just peel that onion.
Lori Rodriguez (01:41:57):
Any parent who's tried to teach their kid how to ride a bike has run into that. You could explain everything. And your kid gets on their bike. You're like, "Ooh! I forgot to tell them about balance" or whatever.
Rob Collie (01:42:06):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:42:07):
Or anything you're trying to explain that you do from an automatic basis.
Lori Rodriguez (01:42:11):
So people lie. And you know that.
Rob Collie (01:42:13):
Oh, yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:42:14):
People lie. And they don't do it on purpose. So when you're asking for requirements, they lie for a number of reasons. They want to give you the answer they think you want. They want to give you the answer that makes them feel, makes them look or seem smart or better or whatever that is. Or they don't know what they need because they think they know what they want. But because of lots of different reasons, it's not really, to your point, when they get it in their hands and they use it or they see it, everything changes. "Ooh, I forgot about this." Or, "Oh! I didn't mention that piece."
Lori Rodriguez (01:42:44):
So the sooner you can get people to admit their lies and mistakes, the better off your product's going to be in the long run. Is that kind of where you're going?
Rob Collie (01:42:52):
Yeah. The longer a lie ages, the more intractable it becomes. If you told me one of those accidental lies five minutes ago, you're not going to be as concerned about walking it back. But if that lie has sat on the record for three months?
Lori Rodriguez (01:43:08):
In paper, in a requirements document.
Rob Collie (01:43:10):
Yeah. It now becomes synonymous with your reputation.
Rob Collie (01:43:14):
So the thing that I saw in 2010, with the new wave of tools?
Lori Rodriguez (01:43:18):
And new wave of tools, explain that.
Rob Collie (01:43:20):
So for me, it's power BI.
Lori Rodriguez (01:43:22):
As opposed to Excel?
Rob Collie (01:43:23):
Yeah. So the first effort at Microsoft with Power BI, we put it into Excel. It was called Power Pivot. Because of the visual canvas that tools like Tableau and others had, Microsoft realized, "Okay. We need to match that level of visual." And they couldn't do that in Excel. So that's why we have the separate Power BI product now. That and a couple of other reasons. But the stuff under the hood that's really the game changer for Power BI relative to the other tools, most of that was already put into Excel in the early 2010s.
Rob Collie (01:43:52):
And our company, the idea for our company, dates back to that. When I saw that the tool now moved fast enough that you absolutely could handle the requirements process in the form of real-time collaboration with the stakeholder or stakeholders, like from a blank canvas? "Let's not talk about it so much. Let's not try to write documents. Let's not try to do any of that stuff. Let's sit down, load the data from however many different sources." Like that story I told earlier, about the customer experience scorecard. It's made a huge difference for them. That's how we did it. There were nine different data sources. Not all of them were in the data warehouse. The data warehouse is never complete either. We sat down, we loaded it, and we started.
Rob Collie (01:44:37):
What's the first place to start? Well, let's start with the front of the funnel, like the CRM, like the first measure. What's the first metric? Well, people requested quotes. Let's start with the obvious. Did we ever get back to them? What is our response rate for people who say, "We'd like to maybe do some business with you?" It turns out it's not 100%.
Lori Rodriguez (01:44:56):
As a business, you know the information's there, right? Like we collect it.
Rob Collie (01:44:59):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:45:00):
We ask our customers to feed us a lot of information. We do nothing with it. So it's there. It sits there. But as a business, we know it's there. It's frustrating because you can't get at it.
Lori Rodriguez (01:45:11):
One of the things you haven't brought up, but to me, is so important, is the democratization of data. Because if you can put it into that one place, like you said. And then, you could ring-fence it, with all the permissions and everything else. And then, you could set it free and let people build stuff on top of it.
Lori Rodriguez (01:45:28):
So if I need to get data, if I need to get information and answers out, or even just go in and explore that data for things that it might tell me that I had no idea that I should know, the fact that I can go do that on my own, or I could get a BA to help me or whatever, and I don't have to wait a year to get a IT budget approved? To get money to have IT do it? You're freeing up the data for use for the business. And that's where I see just the huge potential of this shift that you just talked about, from the old way of thinking to the new way of thinking. Do you see that the same way? Or am I seeing it a little differently?
Rob Collie (01:46:06):
I do. Because another one of the things that the old waves of software inflicted on us, IT didn't choose it to be this way. The software industry did; is that everything was heavy, heavy, heavy infrastructure. So we have all kinds of pithy little ways of saying things that we've developed over the years. And so, we call it faucets first. That's our methodology. The old way was plumbing forever. "Oh! You need a chart? Mm. Okay. Well, let's not get carried away. We've got to go build a lot of infrastructure before we can talk about charts now, don't we?"
Rob Collie (01:46:42):
And seriously, like Microsoft's old software, for example, it required the old analysis services. It required that all of its data come from the same database instance. So in order to even get started, you had to first get all of the data moved into one place, which was never going to happen. It started with a known failure.
Lori Rodriguez (01:47:06):
Yeah. Fatal flaw, right from the get-go.
Rob Collie (01:47:09):
I visited one customer one time, who said, "You know the most exciting thing to us about Power Pivot?" And I go, "What?" He said, "Well, we have all these data warehouses. The enterprise data warehouse project is on our list. And it's forever on our list. It's become like this running joke that we're going to unify, unite the clans of all these-"
Lori Rodriguez (01:47:25):
Single view of the customer. It's been on there for 20 years.
Rob Collie (01:47:29):
Yeah. It's never going to happen.
Lori Rodriguez (01:47:32):
It's outlived six CIOs and three CDOs. Single view of the customer.
Rob Collie (01:47:37):
And these people were telling me, "We're really looking forward to the idea of being able to do dimensional modeling, like a BI analytical model, with data from multiple data warehouses." And at that moment, I just, my jaw was on the floor. I'm like, "I can't believe that we did it that way before."
Rob Collie (01:47:52):
So I sound like a fanboy for a particular vendor and a particular piece of software. And I'm really cognizant of that when I'm talking to someone from Gartner. Even though you're speaking as you, right? Just as a person to person. But I tell people all the time, I didn't revector my career lightly. The fact that I'm really familiar with Microsoft is actually, or would probably, for me, be a reason not to bet on Microsoft. Because I know where the bodies are buried. I know that you become really familiar with the sins of the organization that raised you essentially. I really, truly believe that this thing is something different. And in fact, like now, we're seeing, we're finally seeing the other vendors start to come around to what Microsoft is up to. And they're starting to now go, "Oh. Oh, right." So they're starting to play catch up to Microsoft a little bit.
Lori Rodriguez (01:48:43):
Yeah. So I mean, you can think of it. Sports analogies. Pick anything. Tennis, American football, the other kind of football the rest of the world plays. When there's a breakthrough, one team dominates, or Serena Williams comes in?
Rob Collie (01:48:59):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lori Rodriguez (01:48:59):
It forces all, everybody else, to up their game to compete. So the fact that Microsoft did something more akin to OneNote than what it previously had done, the market's going to tell you whether it's working or not. It opens it up for competitors to beat Microsoft at its own game. So it's helpful when there's been a leapfrog made and then everybody else is going to scramble to fill that and compete.
Lori Rodriguez (01:49:24):
So I appreciate that. I don't take sides on vendors, just from a, in the business itself, and then as Gartner, I don't represent the analysts. I don't represent anybody. I have to do my work as well. And I look for the organizations, companies, people, that are going to help me get my work done, faster, better, cheaper. And quite frankly, pleasant. Working with people is pretty critical that you can trust them and you have a good time while you're working. Because again, back to that work life, I don't want work to suck either. I want work to be fun and exciting and meaningful. And that has a lot to do with the people you're working with. So appreciate that, appreciate.
Rob Collie (01:50:11):
Yeah. We call this show Data with the Human Element. It's what we're about.
Rob Collie (01:50:13):
To do justice to your question, to honor the question that you were asking before, I want to make sure I close that loop. It might not have even been all that intentional. But I think it was halfway intentional. The Power BI sidestepped all that infrastructure. And you talk about how the data doesn't talk to each other. That's true. Your "best of breed," nine different line of business systems that are involved in a particular situation, have no knowledge of each other or interest in one another. In fact, they hate each other. And that data is now able to meet on a common ground inside a Power BI model. And it's effortless. It's not like line of business integration. It's not that kind of middleware. But to line these things up with each other and see across the business, end-to-end, it's breathtakingly simple now.
Rob Collie (01:51:04):
And so, the requirements process and the infrastructure weight that was required before, I think they are two sides of the same coin, when you have a tremendous infrastructure investment that must be made. And again, another quote I got from a customer years ago is, "Yeah. My team spends six months to put a dot on a chart." Just looking at me, just confessing their sins. That was the cool thing about being at Microsoft. You were like the priest and everyone was going to confess their sins to you. Like in the booth, you know?
Lori Rodriguez (01:51:31):
So I have a question. So I'm a fan of low-code, no-code, and the democratization. But there are things that you have to keep centralized. Then, there's this middle piece, which is integration, right? It has to be interoperable. And I feel like Power BI isn't there yet. It still has a lot of work to do, in and of itself, for what its current set of requirements are. You've got a great MVP V3 or something, wherever it's at. But it still has some work to do from that perspective. I think the next big leap, from what my limited experience, is the interoperability with the infrastructure itself. So it's got to be able to...
Lori Rodriguez (01:52:12):
And again, I'm looking from a customer experience perspective where the end result, what I want to get out of. And I'm always thinking of what's next. So I'm all in. I love this thing. And yet, there are things that I need to do to trigger other systems to kick in, right?
Rob Collie (01:52:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Lori Rodriguez (01:52:29):
That trigger piece. And I'm not seeing that just yet. So is it because I'm inexperienced in this? Or is this the next place that needs to go?
Rob Collie (01:52:36):
Well first, let's clarify what you mean by interoperability. I think I know. But just for the listeners.
Rob Collie (01:52:41):
One kind of interoperability is ability to eat data from lots of different places. I think it's great at that part. It's probably best in class for a single software, piece of software solution. It doesn't require you to add three other vendors into the story. Power BI is a world beater in that regard. I think you're talking about like the read right?
Lori Rodriguez (01:53:03):
Yeah. So for example, let's say that the insights you gained from your CRM system in this piece, right? You put a flag on it that says, "When it hits 83;" making this up; "go trigger this process over here in this other system to go tell the sales guy to go sell."
Rob Collie (01:53:22):
Yeah. Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (01:53:22):
Or whatever it is. That triggering mechanism? Does that... I know you've got Power Apps. But it seems like it's not quite yet that right perspective. Or I don't know what your terminology is. But to go off and trigger the infrastructure to do something else.
Rob Collie (01:53:38):
Sure. Sure.
Rob Collie (01:53:38):
So this is awesome. This is like... I don't want to sound patronizing. But it's almost like we're following the same trail of breadcrumbs separately and seeing the same things.
Rob Collie (01:53:49):
Before I show my cards, let me ask you a question. Are really any BI tools good at what you just described?
Lori Rodriguez (01:53:58):
No. Not at all. But I don't care. I'm the business. I don't care about the tool. All I care about is, "Here's what I want to happen. This is awesome! You gave me this data." Now, it's like, "Ooh! I've got to do something with this data." Or, "What does it matter that I know it? I need it to do something." And the do something piece isn't there yet. I'm happy. I'm happy that I see it now. Now that I see it, I want it to do something. So I'm always onto the next thing to order the IT department and the Excel people to do. "That's great! Now, your next thing." You're only as good as the next thing.
Rob Collie (01:54:31):
Okay. So in college, I had a problem, like an ego problem, when I was writing a philosophy paper. And I thought I was the first person on earth to have this idea, you know? And then, I would discover, two weeks later? I don't know. Some philosopher had written exactly my idea. And now, I felt terribly invalidated for some reason. And my professor told me. He says, "Listen. At these moments, you should not take this as invalidation. You should take it as confirmation."
Rob Collie (01:54:59):
So that's how I'm feeling right now. BI, in a vacuum, means nothing. Nothing at all. Even just the nature of it. Business intelligence. This is a domain, this whole industry, that was so difficult and so unsatisfying and so relatively low ROI, relative to what we could imagine, that it has become almost, like a means to an end has become a goal in and of itself. The I should have always been for improvement.
Lori Rodriguez (01:55:31):
Yeah. There you go. Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:55:33):
Until your improved knowledge, your improved vision, it translates into improved action. It's meant nothing. And when you start to judge BI by that standard, suddenly you start to think, "Oh, my God. It's even worse than we thought. It's really, really poor. I've been part of this. I have built reports sometimes that I thought were, "Hmm. That's awesome! That's a hot report." But then, the user of it looks at it and goes, "I don't know what I would do with this. How would this change decisions that I would make or actions I would take?"
Rob Collie (01:56:03):
How would this change decisions that I would make, or actions I would take? I go, "Mm, yeah. Okay." So, I think that BI software has been given a pass for a very, very, very long time in this. If the dashboard tells you something interesting that you should go act on, why does it just sit back on the couch and go, "Mm, good luck with that?"
Lori Rodriguez (01:56:21):
That is exactly where I'm going through. You should know what the next step is. Right? You know what the action to take is. How do you then feed that back into the systems to take that action? That's what I mean by the interoperability, or that mild ... the right piece that you were saying. So, it's got this information. How do I then connect it back to the infrastructure, so it can trigger something else to happen along the way?
Rob Collie (01:56:47):
I've got a lot of thoughts on this. Part of it is reading the tea leaves of Microsoft, as a trained observer of Microsoft. Let's give us all an example that we can use as the testbed. Even if it's not automated, even if the action isn't automated, that's next level. Even if we lower our standards a little bit from that, it's still a failure today. Right? So, the example I've been giving people lately is, let's say you're looking at a dashboard and it's just jumping off the page at you that warehouse six is going to run out of inventory before it's replenished. So, you're going to have an error gap in your supply chain. The dashboard that does that, that tells you that problem exists, today, thinks very highly of itself. It's very smugly satisfied. "Look what I did. I showed you a problem, but good luck." Right?
Rob Collie (01:57:37):
So, now what have you got to go do? First of all, you've got to formulate a response. You've got to formulate what you can do to address this. But then you have to go and log into some other line of business system. Maybe we can transfer some excess inventory from warehouse four to warehouse six. That's one of the ways that we could do it. Of course, we need to rush an order. Okay. We've got to go to an ordering portal to rush the order of more widgets and deliver them to warehouse six. But there's this huge context shift that has to happen for the user of the dashboard. They have to go and navigate to the right system and drill down to the right context, warehouse six and warehouse four, or whatever. Right?
Rob Collie (01:58:19):
Imagine, instead, if the dashboard, when it's highlighted for you, it's right there. You see the shortfall, multiple different actions that you can take. You can start to arrange the transfer of inventory, because you can see it right there on the dashboard. Four, warehouse four, has got six months of supply. Warehouse six is in trouble. It's just right there. Why do I have to go? Why can't I just connect the dots there?
Lori Rodriguez (01:58:45):
Or have it do automatically. To your point, taking automation off the table, at least the information there.
Rob Collie (01:58:53):
I think that organizations like yourselves, on the analyst side ... This is a prediction I'm making about [Gartner 01:59:00]. Right? Some number of years in the near future, when Gartner is formulating their magic quadrant for BI software, they're going to start using this take action integration capability as one of the axes that they're evaluating in order to ... in terms of completeness of vision, to rank the vendors. Once I came to this realization, all these sorts of things coming together, I had this all crystallized for me, suddenly, I understood what Microsoft has been up to for the past three years. It's like, "Uh oh." Again, this is me opining. So, your mileage may vary on this information.
Rob Collie (01:59:40):
Microsoft had a great conference called the Data Insight Summit. Loved this thing. Thought it was awesome. But then they renamed it to the Business Application Summit. It became a little less fun. All of us in the data world were a little bit grumpy, because now we had the Dynamics. It was also the Dynamics conference. It was just data before, but now it was Dynamics and data. So, all the Dynamics products, the ERPs and CRMs and all of that, and accounting software and all that kind of stuff. The VP at Microsoft, James Phillips, who had been in charge of Power BI, just Power BI, after a while, when the track record was established and things were going well, suddenly, they gave James Dynamics, in addition to Power BI, but they also gave him all of this middleware stuff. They gave him the Power apps stuff. They gave him the Flow and the Power Automates stuff. Right?
Rob Collie (02:00:34):
At the time, when they made the change, it just seemed like this random grab bag to me, or yet another Microsoft, pie-in-the-sky, out-of-touch, move. But now, now I'm starting to wonder. In order for the reality that you and I want to see, in order for that to happen, you have to accept that this is never going to be out of the box. It's the most custom, one-off type of equation ever. You can imagine building a dashboard that is, in some sense, one-size-fits-all for an industry. Every oil company that's running on this sort of drilling system or whatever, I could build some dashboards and sell it as a subscription product, for example. But when it came time for them to take action, everyone's got a different ERP. Right?
Rob Collie (02:01:20):
It is the most custom thing ever, the taking action part of a dashboard. So, it is inherently going to be a development exercise. Now, how low-code, how no-code is that development? Okay. There's a spectrum there. But we need to accept that this is solution building. It's going to be a platform rather than an out-of-the-box answer. Oh, my God, does Microsoft have a platform mentality. This is one of the things that they are really, really, really good at, at least relative to their competitors. Right? As an observer of this industry, now also the Salesforce acquisition of Tableau makes more sense to me, too. Salesforce is also trying to be this middleware operating system for your business type of company. They've long since overflowed their banks of CRM.
Rob Collie (02:02:10):
If you think of BI, seriously, just really think of the last three or four months, this has been churning in my brain. If you think of BI, effective BI, as a form of middleware, it is read-only middleware. It's the place where all these silos meet, but in a read-only sense. Oh, yeah. Of course, Salesforce needed BI. Of course, they needed the read-only middleware to go with their read-write middleware platform that they're trying to build, that's their core mission these days. Of course, they would reorganize all of this stuff together at Microsoft. I see this battlefield. Knowing the players, I know who's going to win. Microsoft already has the hooks. I'm sure that the hooks aren't good enough yet. The ability to embed a Power app into your Power BI report, they had that a long time ago. That's been in there for a long time. I'm not going to pretend that, "Oh, there you go. There's your answer." It's just that they've been thinking ahead in a very interesting way.
Lori Rodriguez (02:03:16):
Do you think it's the right direction to put the Power app into the BI, versus the brain into the app? Right? To me, when you're talking about BI, it's the brain. Right? It knows all this stuff. You have the body. Your central nervous system is the middleware that connects the body to the brain. It feels like it's, perhaps, flipped the wrong way. You've got the BI as the thing that you put the body into, as opposed to the intelligence into the body.
Rob Collie (02:03:46):
Well, if I'm following your metaphor, I just take it for granted, the data model brain that you build behind a Power BI report. I just take it for granted that thing is accessible via API. It's always been. I don't have to use Microsoft's front end at all, if I don't want to, to leverage the smarts that I've invested into that BI brain, the data model, even without Power apps, if I wanted to do the thing that you were talking about, the automated trigger.
Lori Rodriguez (02:04:13):
Yeah. At the end of the day, in order to get a result, you have to change a behavior somewhere, in somebody. Right? So, if you're designing your experience to change a behavior, you want the intelligence to slot it and feed that experience. It seems to me, you're building the intelligence and then figuring out how to make the experience work around the intelligence you have, as opposed to just saying, "This is a behavior we want to get to. This is a behavior we have today. I'm going to create an experience. It's not with Microsoft products, but the Microsoft products are going to make the muscles move, or do whatever." I'm thinking of it that way. I don't know that there's anything out there like that.
Rob Collie (02:04:59):
So, are you saying ... Again, I think I might just be struggling to understand where you're headed yet. Are you saying that maybe we take the improved behaviors and the information and inject them into the line of business system, rather than having a jump-off point in the BI?
Lori Rodriguez (02:05:15):
I don't know yet. I'm not sure yet. I think I'm going ... I'm leapfrogging. This is awesome. You've now got all the data accessible in one place with Power BI. Then the next thing is to be able to take action off of that. You're starting to see that with ... I'm just using the Microsoft terms. I don't know what Salesforce or anybody else has. People are out there building other things like that. Whatever that thing is that some company's building on top of their BI platform, to then start to automate things, take action, that's awesome. That's terrific.
Lori Rodriguez (02:05:49):
But if I were a disrupter, because Microsoft is building with what they have, taking what they have and trying to retrofit or fit it into this thing, I would just say, "I want this behavior to happen. This is where we are today," and I would build a product for internal associates or whatever, it includes a dashboard in there, that gets me from point A to point B, and slot it in there as the intelligence to make things move, to drive the behavior that I want at the end of the day. That's Nirvana. Right? If I were starting blank slate, I would start there. Then I'd slot in where BI comes in, where automation comes in, into that process.
Lori Rodriguez (02:06:32):
Again, I'm tool-platform-agnostic. I'm just saying this is how I would build something, if I had that behind me. What Microsoft is saying is, "We had Excel. Now we have Excel Pivot, the next thing." So, you're iterating. Right? You're telling me, "Microsoft is iterating, along with products that they already have," as opposed to Blank Slate or Greenfield, and saying, "This is what it could be in a Nirvana state. Blank Slate, if I were to build this today, I would do X." I'm challenging, because eventually, you're going to get there, but it's going to take you a lot longer to get there in a scientific methodology of experimentation from a starting point, as opposed to saying, "This is where I want to get to. This is where I am today." Like a Google Maps. Right? Just say, "How do we get to that end place we want to go, if we were to just get in our car and design a roadmap from scratch?"
Rob Collie (02:07:24):
Well, I think ... This is just my take on all of that. I think that your history proves that you're much more likely to be correct in this assessment than incorrect. The ideal, the final form of this stuff, is something we probably haven't seen yet. When you reach such a fundamental realization as all of our BI has forever been given a pass on the part that matters the most, which is the taking action, you know that there's a lot of road left. The thing that makes me comfortable, as a Microsoft partner, which is one way to define our company, I suppose. Right? I mean, I try not to think of ourselves that way. As an organization that is associated with and invested in the Microsoft platform, one of the things that makes me comfortable is that I think that Microsoft, technical distance from this unknown Nirvana, is probably quite a bit shorter than their competitors.
Rob Collie (02:08:23):
They probably won't lead the discovery of that Nirvana, even though it happens with their own tools. One of the jokes we used to make about Microsoft was, we give you the parts to the Porsche. Have fun. So, companies like mine are going to be involved in the creation of these solutions, using their platform, which is insanely flexible. Again, you're saying that it should be better and closer to that Nirvana out of the box.
Lori Rodriguez (02:08:55):
Insanely flexible then allows what you just said. If you give the parts, you can create a Porsche.
Rob Collie (02:09:01):
That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (02:09:02):
Dodge Caravan.
Rob Collie (02:09:03):
That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (02:09:04):
Some car that's never existed. You could strap on a hoverboard and come up with something else. That's the piece. It's got to be insanely flexible to then say, "Well, you know what? We built it so it was the outsides, but what we're seeing is people are using it as the inside, as opposed to the outside." So, the brain and the nervous system, as opposed to the body. Right? Which is the body is the behavior and the intelligence, and the nervous system is driving the muscles, which is the outside, is what you're seeing and experiencing. So, if it's insanely flexible, then that allows organizations to build the Porsche.
Rob Collie (02:09:42):
Yeah.
Lori Rodriguez (02:09:42):
Am I understanding that correctly? I think that's probably a good way to get to this blank slate, from what Microsoft and other companies are doing with what they have today.
Rob Collie (02:09:52):
This is one of the only pieces of Microsoft's DNA that I think has remained relatively consistent from the beginning, at least from the ... I've said this before on this show. Most people think of Windows as a product, as a consumer product. It's the thing with the start menu and all of that. I went to Microsoft and I spent some time with the Windows team. I quickly discovered that isn't how Microsoft thought of Windows at all. The start menu and all of that is just one app, little tiny, tiny, insignificant piece of software that was written on top of Windows. The world thinks of Windows as the shell. That's it. They're like, "Ah, whatever. Those people weren't even all that respected, necessarily, on the Windows team." The difference between the Windows team and the developer division, the Visual Studio division at Microsoft, there wasn't any. They were the same crew. Windows was an API. Windows was a development platform. That's what it was from the beginning, and that's what it always was. That's where the parts from the Porsche thing comes from. You can get a fully assembled moped from Microsoft's competitors. You want a moped from Microsoft? You're going to have to build it. But you can build anything. So, this is the pros and cons, the plus and minus, is that it's so strange, in some ways. The very, very, very first version of Power BI included the ability for you to code your own visual. You could write your own custom chart control from the very first version of Power BI. Right? It's like, "Guys, this is not important. You spent your time on this. We could have had a million other really useful things. But that one? That one needed to happen first?"
Lori Rodriguez (02:11:29):
You know why? Because people told them that it had to be there. Right? Back to the lies people tell in the requirements. Of course, I want control to be able to do that. Then you get it, it's like, "It's so complicated. I can't do everything."
Rob Collie (02:11:44):
But only Microsoft would tell that lie. People are going to be falling all over themselves to code custom visuals. Now, it worked out, because it's future-proofed them in a number of ways. That's one of those features, if you don't do it at the beginning, you'll probably never do it. We use custom visuals. There's a pretty vibrant market in custom visuals.
Lori Rodriguez (02:12:05):
Well, that's where you can layer on from the platform perspective. Right?
Rob Collie (02:12:08):
That's right. That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (02:12:08):
If you give people all the parts to build stuff, then you spring up a whole bunch of consultants who will create that moped for you based on ...
Rob Collie (02:12:17):
That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (02:12:18):
So, we can create it for you, or we've got ones that are already built and you just buy it. You could have that same model work.
Rob Collie (02:12:24):
That's right.
Lori Rodriguez (02:12:25):
Where you allow partners to come in and they do whatever it is that people want.
Rob Collie (02:12:29):
That's Microsoft's ethos, in a nutshell. I don't think, as a company, that we have done too much work developing custom visuals. Most of our consulting work around Power BI is helping people build data models and reports. We have a partner, one of our partner companies, that has done a financial planning product, incredibly comprehensive financial planning product, integrated with Power BI, that would not have been possible, just a nonstarter from the beginning, if this custom visual framework wasn't in there. Their custom visuals are charts that also allow you to write back to various other sources, because the code is up to the custom ... So, it's not even a Power app. Right? It's just a chart that you can right click on a bar and say, "No, no. Make that six. Show me what the implications of that would be." A lot of the best things are things that Microsoft ... If you rely on Microsoft to anticipate what the world needs, you're never going to get there. They do leave the canvas flexible.
Lori Rodriguez (02:13:30):
Yeah, but who would anticipate a pandemic? We have to be uncomfortable with uncertainty. One of the women in the book, she spent her entire life ... IBM fellow, National Academy of Sciences, she built her career on uncertainty, did her dissertation on uncertainty. She's like, "Yeah. I'm right there now. I was ahead, looking ahead." Because life's uncertain, which is you have this balance between flexibility and then overwhelming people with too much choice. How do you work through both of those things?
Rob Collie (02:14:02):
Yeah. If there's 31 flavors of ice cream, if I up that to 600, no one ever eats ice cream.
Lori Rodriguez (02:14:08):
Yeah, or even 31. Right? It's so cool with neuroscience, as well, that we can look at things like too many choices and figure out how to build products that accommodate how we actually think and what we actually do, versus what we tell developers, and people like me in market research, what they want, which is why Steve Jobs, he said he didn't do market research, and that's not true. But he didn't do the kind of market research that was typical at the time, with focus groups and telling people, "You want blue or yellow?" They're like, "Ah, of course, I want yellow." That's not the case, because it's not reality.
Rob Collie (02:14:46):
The second half of my career is one in which I respect Steve Jobs immensely. His editorial force is just something else. There was something you said about uncertainty that really also spoke to me. The way that I found my way into my discovery of my own data gene was through fantasy football. In 1996, I was invited to join ... My first year at Microsoft, I was invited to join a fantasy football league. I didn't even know what that was. I wasn't watching football at the time. I wasn't interested, but I did it just to, "Ah, I'm a new guy. I'll meet other people. I'll use this as a social thing." Somewhere along the way, in year three, I read this article somewhere that explained to me what the real game was in fantasy football. I was like, "Aha! Oh, I get it now." The smoke parted. Suddenly, I was up to my eyeballs in Excel. That's what's, in the end, powered my interest in all of this stuff.
Rob Collie (02:15:44):
So, back to the women in data, I think you'll really appreciate this story. I was in the succession plan on the Excel team. I was the heir apparent. I was next to take over for the group program manager job. I was making it. Then Microsoft decided to launch a fantasy football team, a fantasy football software team, over on the MSN side. I'm like, "I'm out. I'm out. I'm gone." So, really, you think of really poor career choices. One of the things I got to do over there was try to build a consumer-facing, end user-facing stats portal for the NFL. We did it, because it was me. Right? We did it based on Microsoft's pre-Power BI, their traditional BI software, with an Excel web front end over the top. So, it was an analysis services model with OLAP data, blah, blah, blah. Right?
Rob Collie (02:16:39):
So, that stuff was too hard. I couldn't do that. I had to hire a consulting firm. I got to be a customer of a BI firm. I got to be the customer in a BI project. I was lucky that the consultant that they assigned to our project, from Hitachi Consulting or whatever, didn't know football. He was from another country. He had no idea about American football. So, we had the same dynamic where I had to explain to him the business, the subject matter, over and over and over again, and the requirements process. If I had just lucked into another NFL fan, it would have been easy. I would have missed an important learning, which later on, without that piece of information, without that experience, I would have never launched this company. I would have never known that the world was changing.
Rob Collie (02:17:22):
The thing with women in data was that we started doing focus groups when we got something that was an MVP up and running. We started doing focus groups. We recruited people that were friendly to Microsoft. They knew Microsoft somehow. They had someone, a family member, who worked there or whatever, they had some sort affinity for Microsoft, but they were also into football. I was so proud. I would sit down in front of these people and say, "Oh, my gosh. Look at this. You can ask any question you want about a sports situation, an NFL situation." What's Tom Brady's conversion rate on third and long in the fourth quarter or whatever? The guys in the room were not interested at all. They didn't care. They were just like, "Dude, okay. Let's get to the end of the tour, so I can get my free piece of software, like you promised." But the women, not all of them, but the ones that were interested ... I did four or five of these focus groups. Every single time, the person who was most interested in what we were doing in the room was a woman. Just so excited to interact with this thing.
Lori Rodriguez (02:18:29):
That's awesome.
Rob Collie (02:18:30):
That was my first brush with maybe curiosity, maybe curiosity runs stronger in women than in men, which if it were true, makes me feel bad for men. Right? What's wrong with me?
Lori Rodriguez (02:18:44):
Is that the digital equivalent of not asking for directions?
Rob Collie (02:18:48):
I guess. I think it's exactly it. Right? I could see these women thinking to themselves, "I am so tired of listening to the guy at my office go on and on and on about football, like he knows everything. I'm going to go in and just own him next week with this portal."
Lori Rodriguez (02:19:04):
I love it. My 17 year old daughter got invited to a fantasy football league. My husband and I were huge Giants fans when we were younger, but life gets in the way, and I just haven't watched football, like I used, to in years. So, it's just not on. So, she hasn't been exposed to football, which, wow, she doesn't even know the basics of the game. She gets asked to be in this fantasy football league. So, what does she do? Talk about curiosity. She starts asking everybody she knows, lots of people she knows that are into football, "How do you play this game? What do you do?" She's led the fantasy football league the entire time, from the beginning, by far.
Lori Rodriguez (02:19:45):
In the last game, another female, same age, cousin in this family, overtook her by 10 points. So, the top two going away were the girls in the group, one of which has never watched, really, other than the Super Bowl, which we do a big thing for Super Bowl, has never really watched a football game. Because she just went to data, and she was able to get lots of different opinions, look at all the stats, qualitative, quantitative, and make some judgements based on what she's hearing, and just objective, very objective, she doesn't care about any team or any player, and she's led the whole way. It was awesome. I'm tracking with you on that story.
Rob Collie (02:20:28):
So, I can't think of a better place to end. You hear that? That is what data is about. Ladies, just lean into it. I really do think there's something to this. I think, really, it's a weird thing to say, but I think women are better at it. I really do. Not that our guys aren't. We've got a good team, a lot of good people. I want to see that reflected in our demographics on our team going forward.
Lori Rodriguez (02:20:53):
Yeah. I'll echo that. I heard a quote, and I love it. It's, "All flourishing is mutual." So, when we compete together, when we play together, we all win. We all push each other to make ourselves better. So, all flourishing is mutual. Yeah. We need more women in data. I'm right there with you.
Rob Collie (02:21:12):
Yeah. Let's make that happen. I'm really looking forward to your book. Thank you so much, Lori. This has been awesome. This will probably be our longest podcast we've ever done to-date. Thank you so much for taking the time.
New Speaker (02:21:22):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data By P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro. com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P, L-U-K-E P, at powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
He's just a guy in a cube helping people. That's the simplest way to describe who Adam Saxton is. He turned a childhood fascination for computers into an amazing career at Microsoft (he's currently a member of the elite Power BI CAT Team), he has a hugely successful YouTube channel, Guy In A Cube, with his partner Patrick LeBlanc, and is a respected fixture in the data community. He sits down with the Raw Data Crew and talks about his origin story, the work he puts in for the YouTube channel, Power BI, life on the road, and everything in between. Enjoy our conversation with Adam Saxton, he's A Guy In A Cube
Guy In A Cube Website
Guy In A Cube Twitter
Guy In A Cube Youtube
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Today, we welcome Adam Saxton, founder of, and co-creator, ongoing co-host of Guy in a Cube. I could just probably stop there. You know who I'm talking about. Amazing story. Really just sort of a gift to the community, so it's just really, really gratifying to get to spend... We were recording for almost two hours.
Rob Collie (00:00:19):
We talk about Power BI. Of course, we talk about Power BI. But really, we also focus a lot on just his story, like how did he find himself in this situation? What was his road that brought him here? How does he look at his job? How does he look at his two jobs? And I found it all incredibly fascinating. I finally got to ask him a bunch of questions. I've been meaning to ask for a long time, and I hope you enjoy it as much as we did. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:00:45):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:00:49):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:07):
Welcome to the show. Adam Saxton. How are you, man?
Adam Saxton (00:01:12):
Yo. Living the dream, my friend.
Rob Collie (00:01:14):
Living the dream indeed.
Adam Saxton (00:01:16):
Living the dream.
Rob Collie (00:01:17):
Yeah. I can get behind that. I think I could understand that.
Adam Saxton (00:01:20):
I got a roof over my head, my kids are healthy. I got no issues.
Rob Collie (00:01:24):
The fundamentals.
Adam Saxton (00:01:25):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:01:26):
You got a pretty hot gig too.
Adam Saxton (00:01:27):
Can't complain. Can't complain.
Rob Collie (00:01:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know how it is?
Adam Saxton (00:01:33):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:01:33):
Always, always.
Adam Saxton (00:01:33):
There's always something to complain about.
Rob Collie (00:01:34):
You can always complain.
Adam Saxton (00:01:35):
Yeah. But seriously, living the dream there. From the day job perspective, it's an amazing job with a lot of freedom and it definitely pays the bills, and then I get to also do the fun stuff on the side for my passion. Wife is very supportive, so it's nothing to complain about really on that. There's people with much worse problems than what I've got.
Rob Collie (00:01:57):
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like you said, the contrast between our work from home knowledge worker jobs and how good that is for all of us is just so, so, so in such sharp focus over the last year. In a way, our lives haven't changed. They have.
Adam Saxton (00:02:16):
I miss traveling.
Rob Collie (00:02:17):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:02:19):
I want to travel again.
Rob Collie (00:02:20):
I miss seeing my kids. They're living the teenage life and so they're quarantining with their mom, who doesn't seem to have the same, I don't know, level of paranoia about this disease that my wife and I do.
Adam Saxton (00:02:37):
It's a problem when you're not on the same page. That could be disheartening.
Rob Collie (00:02:39):
Yeah, it is. But what it really is, I'm actually kind of grateful for it, because how are you going to fence in a couple of teenagers who are just now discovering the dating life and all of that? I'm actually sort of in a weird way, grateful that my ex is actually willing to take the risk. I don't know. It would just be unending conflict if they didn't have a place to stay.
Adam Saxton (00:03:03):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:03:03):
It sounds like I'm complaining, but actually I'm like, "Well, I do miss my kids," but even there, we lucked out. Even there, we lucked out.
Adam Saxton (00:03:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:11):
And that's crazy.
Adam Saxton (00:03:12):
I remember just some folks I talked to, because I'm like, "Oh, I work from home. My wife actually has a job where she works from home as well."
Adam Saxton (00:03:20):
And they're like, "Oh, because of COVID and all?"
Adam Saxton (00:03:23):
I'm like, "No, I've been working from home for years," so I'm like, "Nothing on that front changed."
Rob Collie (00:03:27):
Our whole company, we like to joke, we were working from home before it was cool.
Adam Saxton (00:03:31):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:03:32):
Except we did travel. We did go and visit some people. We would visit our clients. So we've had to make that change.
Adam Saxton (00:03:40):
There's customers I work with, where one of them in particular, right before everything got shut down, I was actually planning with them saying, "I'm going to come out monthly," and then that didn't happen.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:52):
So I will say, you're talking about teenagers in COVID. I got a senior and a junior in high school.
Adam Saxton (00:03:58):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:58):
One of them really doesn't leave the house anyway, so no issues there.
Adam Saxton (00:04:02):
Yeah. I have the same situation. Sophomore in high school, her sweet spot is just laying on her bed, drawing, watching videos, playing games. She's basically my clone.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:14):
And we've been remote learning since last March.
Adam Saxton (00:04:17):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:04:18):
They sent all the kids home, then they tried to get through the end of the school year, remote learning, and it wasn't as good, but they put together a good plan here. And we were remote for the first four months and now they are hybrid. But we elected to keep our kids remote. We weren't forced to go back.
Adam Saxton (00:04:36):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:04:36):
My kids, they were exactly that. They were the digital life. They lived on their phones, they never left the house, and that was how it was for years. I was always kind of trying to encourage, "Well what about going out into the real world every now and then?" They really got into the real world right around the time of COVID. That's when they turned the corner. I'm like, "Ah, no."
Adam Saxton (00:04:59):
Yeah, that sucks. Yeah. My younger daughter, she's 13 now and she's always active and wants to ride horses, she wants to go hang out with friends, so it's really hard on her. But my older daughter, she's 15 going on 16, and she's like, "Yeah, I don't care. I don't like to people."
Rob Collie (00:05:16):
Yeah. Well, like I said, I was living that life as a parent and then in the space of two months, boom.
Adam Saxton (00:05:22):
Yeah, that sucks. That is tough. That is very tough. Very tough.
Rob Collie (00:05:27):
I'm discovering things like what, there's a Tinder for teens? What?
Adam Saxton (00:05:31):
Whoa. I didn't even know that.
Rob Collie (00:05:34):
The other kids meeting people on Tinder, it's like, "What?"
Adam Saxton (00:05:39):
That doesn't seem safe.
Rob Collie (00:05:41):
What about at Xbox? Just go back to being the Xbox recluse.
Adam Saxton (00:05:46):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:05:47):
All right. So let's get back to talking about Adam. Enough about our kids.
Adam Saxton (00:05:52):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:53):
In our inaugural episode, Tom and I talked about how we first met and the backdrop for all of that was SQL Twitter.
Adam Saxton (00:06:02):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:06:02):
When I first saw Guy in a Cube show up on Twitter, I'm like, "Hey, I recognize that face. That's A. Saxton."
Adam Saxton (00:06:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:11):
You know how you get this weird, crazy ability to recognize people based on Twitter?
Adam Saxton (00:06:18):
Funny story about the Twitter thing, because I absolutely agree. I met so much of, at the time it was the SQL family, and then it's expanded past that. The way I met folks and got to know some of the MVPs and other folks in the community was through Twitter. I remember being at PASS Summit one year and this big guy comes up to me, he's like, "Adam Saxton."
Adam Saxton (00:06:37):
And I'm like, "Hey, how's it going?"
Adam Saxton (00:06:39):
He's like, "Dude, it's great to finally see you face-to-face."
Adam Saxton (00:06:41):
I'm like, "Yeah." And I'm looking at his badge, I see his name. I'm like, "I have no idea who you are, dude. What is this?"
Adam Saxton (00:06:47):
He's like, "Oh, I'm SQL Chicken."
Adam Saxton (00:06:49):
And I'm like, "Oh, okay. I know you buy your Twitter handle. I don't know you by..." Because a lot of folks didn't even have pictures of themselves either, so I'm like, "I have no way to connect with who you are."
Rob Collie (00:06:59):
That's right. But you, when you were on Twitter as A. Saxton, it was a picture of you, wasn't it?
Adam Saxton (00:07:04):
Yeah. My awsaxton's always had a picture of me and then Guy in a Cube has not.
Rob Collie (00:07:09):
Okay.
Adam Saxton (00:07:09):
For a little while, I had my little animated picture, but then that changed also.
Rob Collie (00:07:15):
All right. So back in around 2010, 2011, in the early 2010s, what were you doing professionally?
Adam Saxton (00:07:23):
I was a support engineer in SQL support at Microsoft, and actually not working on SQL. They had four different groups that were part of the SQL support group. One was actual SQL engine, then there was this advance performance team, and then there was the analysis services team. And then my team, which was originally called the web data team, and we owned all of connectivity, so connecting to SQL and then all of the developer support, so ADO, ADO.NET. And it also included reporting services because they didn't know where else to put it.
Rob Collie (00:07:58):
It just totally belongs here. ADO, ADO.NET, reporting services.
Adam Saxton (00:08:02):
Yes, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:08:03):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:08:04):
It's a web product, so it's developer.
Rob Collie (00:08:06):
Oh, yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:08:06):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:08:07):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:08:07):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:08:07):
Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that you were Microsoft, even back in the day.
Adam Saxton (00:08:13):
Yeah. I started on the web data team. So actually, I started doing support for Microsoft when I was a senior in high school. I did that for four-and-a-half years. That was my job when I was a senior in high school, so that was a Monday through Friday, 3:00 to 7:00 PM. It was an awesome-
Thomas LaRock (00:08:29):
I'm sorry, you were a senior for four-and-a-half years?
Adam Saxton (00:08:32):
No, no, no, no. I started when I was a senior and I did that job for four-and-a-half years.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:37):
Okay. Okay.
Adam Saxton (00:08:38):
So, that was supporting. Yeah, I was a senior for four-and-a-half years and...
Rob Collie (00:08:44):
There's some sort of Matthew McConaughey joke in here.
Adam Saxton (00:08:47):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:08:47):
I get older, the queries stay the same age.
Adam Saxton (00:08:51):
That's it. That's it. But yeah, I was supporting. I started there supporting Windows 95 and then Windows 98, Windows Millennium.
Rob Collie (00:08:59):
What?
Adam Saxton (00:09:00):
Oh yeah. And then right into Windows 2000. Then I started getting developer skills at that point, and then I went off just doing different developer jobs, all self-taught. Then in 2005 I saw a job for a contractor position. It was in Charlotte. It was under a contracting name, the actual contractor, not Microsoft, but the way it read, I was like, "Man, that sounded like the Microsoft support." And it said web data. I didn't know what that was at that point. And then I went and it was support. So I started doing support as a contractor in 2005 on the web data team. And then 2006, I became a full-time employee.
Rob Collie (00:09:35):
Did you move to Charlotte for that?
Adam Saxton (00:09:36):
I did. I was living in Tucson, Arizona at the time. And then we relocated to Charlotte. We were in Charlotte for about a year and a half, and then we found out that there was a site in Dallas, Texas, the Las Colinas site. And my wife's originally from Texas, her family's outside of Houston, and so we relocated to Dallas, and that's when I got to meet folks like Bob Ward and Bob Dorr on the SQL side, and they basically became my mentors at that point, and it went from there. So I've been doing Microsoft for almost 15 years now.
Rob Collie (00:10:08):
Okay. Let's go back because again, another unknown thing I didn't know. Microsoft support.
Adam Saxton (00:10:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:16):
In high school?
Adam Saxton (00:10:18):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:10:18):
All right.
Adam Saxton (00:10:18):
Yeah. So I started November 1996, is when I started doing that.
Rob Collie (00:10:24):
Oh my gosh. So I had started at Microsoft in Redmond in July 1996.
Adam Saxton (00:10:28):
Nice. Nice.
Rob Collie (00:10:30):
We're basically twins, you and me.
Adam Saxton (00:10:32):
Yeah. That was very IT-focused at the time, so it was all Windows, I was playing around on with Exchange Server and Active Directory, once that eventually came out.
Rob Collie (00:10:40):
That's what an average high school kid does.
Adam Saxton (00:10:42):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:42):
Just play around with a little Active Directory.
Adam Saxton (00:10:44):
Oh, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:10:45):
How does a high schooler get hired by Microsoft though?
Rob Collie (00:10:47):
So I built my first computer when I think I was 15. And then when I turned 16, I had to get a job. I was very passionate about the fact that I was not going to get a job in the food industry. So restaurants, grocery store, whatever. Nothing against that. But I was just like, "Look, I love computers. I want to work with computers. I'm going to get a job with computers." And in the mid 90s, it's still kind of new. If you were on the internet, if there was such a thing, it was AOL or CompuServe. It wasn't what we have today.
Rob Collie (00:11:18):
So there was a little retail shop that was in Tucson. It was called Egghead Software. I don't know if you remember that. It was a retail job, selling software. So I got a job at Egghead Software for a little bit. One of the guys I met working there, because they started a call center in Tucson, Arizona for support, he ended up working there and he called me up. He's like, "Adam, I think you would love this job. They're hiring some more people for Windows 95 support. Do you want to apply?"
Rob Collie (00:11:46):
So I was like, "Yeah, let's do this."
Rob Collie (00:11:48):
Then I came home one day and my mom was like, "Why aren't you at work?"
Rob Collie (00:11:52):
And I'm like, "I got a job with Microsoft."
Rob Collie (00:11:53):
She's like, "Don't lie to me."
Rob Collie (00:11:54):
And I'm like, "No, seriously look." So in high school, I have an orange badge for Microsoft and I'm a senior in high school and I'm studying for MCP.
Rob Collie (00:12:05):
That's so cool. I just didn't have any worthwhile hobbies in high school. The first PC that I had, I got it when I was a freshman in college. I had never really been all that into it.
Adam Saxton (00:12:17):
Yeah. So my first computer was a Commodore 64, 128 combo. And I had two five-and-a-quarter-inch floppy drives, and that was everything.
Rob Collie (00:12:26):
Two?
Adam Saxton (00:12:26):
Yeah. I remember programming on basic there. I was really just a video gamer. That's all I wanted. Then my dad ended up, he had a 386 and he upgraded to a 486 with a turbo button. I remember that. That was very exciting. So then he gave me the 386, and I was 11 or 12 at the time. He said, "Look, I'm going to give you this computer, but if you're going to use it, you're going to know how to use it."
Adam Saxton (00:12:54):
I'm like, "Okay." So I had to go through this tutorial on DOS 6 and it was Windows 3.0 and DOS 6. So I just learned how to do it and I was playing around with these commands. I'm like, "You know what? I'm going to do this on my dad's computer because it's a little faster." I said, "All right. Let me try this new command. What is this? F disk... Oh. Oh, crap. I don't know what that's doing. Right. We're going to turn that off."
Adam Saxton (00:13:20):
Then my dad comes home and was like, "Oh my God, my computer won't boot. What's going on?"
Adam Saxton (00:13:23):
And I'm like, "I have no idea."
Rob Collie (00:13:25):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:13:25):
I'm like, "My computer's fine." So I learned all that stuff, and then by the time I was 12, I knew way more than he did. I remember he had a game, so this may bring back some memories. He had a game called Leisure Suit Larry.
Thomas LaRock (00:13:40):
Oh, yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:13:43):
All the pixels. One of the things they had, they had this kid protection in front of it where you had to answer these historical questions.
Rob Collie (00:13:51):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:13:51):
And at the time I was in Pennsylvania and we had a basement and so the computers were down there. I'd yell up to my mom during the day because again, I'm 12 years old, we didn't have the internet, I couldn't just go look this up. So I was like, "Mom, which war was Franklin Roosevelt a part of?"
Adam Saxton (00:14:07):
And she's like, "I think it was World War II."
Adam Saxton (00:14:09):
I'm like, "Select." I'm like, "All right, I'm in."
Rob Collie (00:14:13):
Yeah. It had an adult level. The game became dirtier if you could prove that you were a grownup.
Adam Saxton (00:14:21):
Yes. That's how I hacked Leisure Suit Larry. I started with the social engineering.
Rob Collie (00:14:27):
Yeah, that's right. That's right. You also mentioned having the two, five-and-a-quarter-inch floppy drives on the Commodore. You were the shit back then.
Adam Saxton (00:14:34):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:14:35):
Because you could make copies of games without having to swap disks every so many.
Adam Saxton (00:14:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:40):
Luke and I were part of that culture from the Apple two perspective. I never had the dual drive.
Adam Saxton (00:14:46):
I was PC all the way. So I remember when I was a senior in high school, there was also this issue at my high school where I guess someone deployed some virus. They were using, it was a Novell infrastructure. And they deployed a virus and I was pulled into this office or whatever. I was one of three people that they tagged as suspicious for this activity. I'm like, "Wow. Thank you. It wasn't me, but I appreciate that." Then there was this other time I came in and I saw my teacher scrambling, he was on his Mac. They all used Macs, and I'm like, "What's going on?"
Adam Saxton (00:15:20):
He's like, "Ah, it's just the network's just not working.
Adam Saxton (00:15:24):
I actually had a laptop. I was senior in high school working at Microsoft. I had a laptop and I'm like, "Well, what's going on?"
Adam Saxton (00:15:30):
It was like, "Well, no one on this floor is working." And they had the computer guy come into the room and he's messing around on his computer. And I'm like, "All right, well, if the whole floor is down, that ain't going to fix anything." So I told the teacher, I was just like, "Look, do you want me to look at it?" I'm like, "It's probably like an issue with the hub or the router or something. Where's it at?"
Adam Saxton (00:15:51):
The computer guy is like, "No, I can't take you to that. It's sensitive and you're not allowed."
Adam Saxton (00:15:56):
And then the vice principal came in and said, "No, just show him." So they walked me down to the janitor's closet and the broomstick... Seriously, I kid you not, the broomstick fell and knocked the power cord out of the wall. And when they plugged it back in, the whole floor was better.
Thomas LaRock (00:16:10):
Exactly.
Adam Saxton (00:16:10):
I was like, "You guys are stupid."
Rob Collie (00:16:13):
That's like a movie scene. Some sort of crisis going on, and then there's this outsider, and the outsider's just like, "I know how to fix it." And the there's the establishment that says, "No, we're not letting it..." But then someone comes in and overrules.
Adam Saxton (00:16:26):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:16:27):
They say, "Give him a chance."
Adam Saxton (00:16:29):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:16:29):
And the music swells.
Adam Saxton (00:16:31):
Dun, dun, dun.
Rob Collie (00:16:33):
Yes.
Adam Saxton (00:16:34):
You open the janitor door. Dun, dun, dun.
Rob Collie (00:16:38):
Yeah. That's right. That's right.
Adam Saxton (00:16:39):
People were like, "No way."
Adam Saxton (00:16:41):
That was like, "I swear to God, it was the classic trope of..." Yes. So one of the best stories I have from support. So the old modems. Even before the main modems, you had the coupler modems.
Rob Collie (00:16:58):
The ones like in more games.
Adam Saxton (00:17:00):
Right. So this guy calls up and he's just like, "Look, I'm trying to connect to my BBS server and every time it does, it just disconnects, it drops it. It used to work fine, but it just started not working."
Adam Saxton (00:17:11):
I'm like, "All right. Well, let's go through and let's see what it sounds like."
Adam Saxton (00:17:14):
So he starts doing it and you hear something in the background and I'm like, "What's that noise in the background?"
Adam Saxton (00:17:21):
"Oh, that's my parrot. I just got that a couple weeks ago."
Adam Saxton (00:17:25):
And I'm like, "Hmm, can you move the parrot to the other room?" And then all of a sudden, it starts working. It's like, "Oh my gosh." The parrot was mimicking the modem sounds.
Rob Collie (00:17:35):
Yeah, that's crazy. Is that on the flow chart? Like reboot, reinstall the drivers, move the parrot.
Adam Saxton (00:17:43):
Windows 95 and 98, it was always a clean boot, safe mode, or safe mode then clean boot. And then it's just bring it down to the simplest form, remove options and keep trying, and that's support. That's troubleshooting.
Rob Collie (00:17:57):
And then you get escalated to tier three.
Adam Saxton (00:18:00):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:18:00):
Where they talk about "Well, talk to me about the pets."
Adam Saxton (00:18:03):
Yeah. Tier three is animal control. You got to...
Rob Collie (00:18:08):
That's great. That is really, a really a good story.
Adam Saxton (00:18:11):
There's many more. There's many more like crazy, weird. Oh my gosh.
Rob Collie (00:18:16):
I have the same sorts of stories about bugs.
Adam Saxton (00:18:18):
You mean software bugs. Yeah. Not real bugs. Not like an Indiana Jones bug moment in a tunnel.
Rob Collie (00:18:24):
If you get real bugs, I recommend you just get a parrot. That will hoover those things up. But sometimes the way that the real world conspires, chaos can leak into a finely-crafted system, in the form of a parrot in this case.
Adam Saxton (00:18:39):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:18:39):
Just sometimes it's just beautiful, isn't it?
Adam Saxton (00:18:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:18:42):
It's just beautiful what can happen.
Adam Saxton (00:18:44):
Yeah. It's always amazing. That's the other thing I loved in the developer support side of it, just working with code and I got into memory dumps and going through all of that and just being able to logically, just follow it and trace it down and this is the line of code where the problem is, and being able to get fixes for that, and that was always fun.
Rob Collie (00:19:04):
Yeah. There's nothing more fun for me than going through a memory dump.
Adam Saxton (00:19:08):
Yes. I love the smell of dumps in the morning.
Rob Collie (00:19:12):
Yeah. I'm actually completely kidding. I've never once...
Adam Saxton (00:19:16):
I love memory... I live to go through a memory dump. Patrick. I remember my business partner, Patrick, we were in his basement one time. Microsoft had acquired, I don't even remember the name of them anymore. It was Dataviz or some third-party company we took over and ended up getting incorporated into a Power BI Report Server, and also SQL Server Reporting Services.
Rob Collie (00:19:41):
Datazen.
Adam Saxton (00:19:41):
Datazen.
Rob Collie (00:19:41):
You're talking about Datazen.
Adam Saxton (00:19:41):
That's it. Yeah, Datazen.
Thomas LaRock (00:19:41):
Datazen.
Adam Saxton (00:19:42):
There was this weird thing where they had their little builder thing and it was trying to get data, and he's like, "Why is this so slow?"
Adam Saxton (00:19:52):
I'm like, "You must be working with big data." I'm like, "What is it?"
Adam Saxton (00:19:55):
He's like, "It's like 30,000 rows in an Excel file."
Adam Saxton (00:19:57):
I'm like, "Whew, that's really big." So I'm like, "Well, just give me a memory dump. I'll see what's going on."
Adam Saxton (00:20:04):
And he's like, "What?" So we start looking at the dump and I'm like, "Oh no, here it is. Right here's the call stack. This is what you're doing. You're getting stuck in this weird loop. It's just really slow."
Adam Saxton (00:20:13):
He looks at that and he is like, "Dude, that's like the matrix. What are you looking at?"
Adam Saxton (00:20:17):
And I'm like, "Ah, I just see a blonde, brunette, redhead. It's fun."
Rob Collie (00:20:19):
Yeah. And then you point to this other place on the screen and you turn and look at him and go, "Naughty. Naughty."
Adam Saxton (00:20:26):
Yes. There was one time I was asking a guy, he wrote this third-party extension thing for Reporting Services, and he was claiming that it was fine. I'm like, "Look, this error is coming from your extension."
Adam Saxton (00:20:41):
He's like, "No, it's not."
Adam Saxton (00:20:42):
And I'm like, "Can you send me the source code for what you do?"
Adam Saxton (00:20:45):
"No, I can't send you the source code."
Adam Saxton (00:20:46):
I'm like, "Can you send me a memory dump?"
Adam Saxton (00:20:49):
"Oh yeah, I can send you that."
Adam Saxton (00:20:50):
I'm like, "All right." And it was .NET, so I'm like, "Oh, I'll just extract the binaries and here you go. It's on line 18."
Adam Saxton (00:20:57):
And he's like, "Oh, you're right. How'd you know that?"
Adam Saxton (00:21:00):
"It's magic."
Rob Collie (00:21:01):
Adam, I completely did not plan to ask this, but in your support days, you said up through Windows 2000. Did you ever end up crossing paths with supporting the Windows Installer MSI?
Adam Saxton (00:21:14):
Not on the Windows 2000 side, because I know that was a whole different architecture from the Windows 95 and 98 stuff. So I didn't end up actually dealing with any of that. It was right when I was going out was when they started bringing the Windows 2000 stuff.
Rob Collie (00:21:28):
Okay. 2000 was NT. It was the first time that they-
Adam Saxton (00:21:31):
Yes. It was the NT kernel.
Rob Collie (00:21:31):
It sort of thrown out the consumer Windows.
Adam Saxton (00:21:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:35):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:21:35):
Bringing it together.
Rob Collie (00:21:36):
We could have really nerded out. You were saying that you've been into Active Directory and all of that. Yeah. I might actually have spent more time in total time in over career in Regedit.
Adam Saxton (00:21:47):
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:47):
Than you.
Adam Saxton (00:21:48):
Yeah, probably.
Rob Collie (00:21:50):
Maybe.
Adam Saxton (00:21:50):
Maybe.
Rob Collie (00:21:50):
Just because of my two years in setup.
Adam Saxton (00:21:52):
I will say though, the experience of going through on the IT side and understanding things like Active Directory, networking, Exchange Server and having that foundation and then going into SQL support, because one of the challenges I've always had, even today, folks that are doing Power BI and when we're connecting to data sources, they don't necessarily understand everything involved in that pattern. And I'm like, "Look, it's a data source. We're going to go over the network. We're going to have some protocol to go get that. We've got to wait for it to come back. How many hops in latency do we have in between?" And just having that foundation has really helped to understand the whole picture and not just my funneled or little tunnel vision of whatever product I'm working on, and so just being able to go past that and play around with it. That's how I got into Kerberos. I love Kerberos.
Rob Collie (00:22:43):
Oh man. Oh gosh. Again, back in the early 2010s, everyone loved setting up Kerberos.
Adam Saxton (00:22:51):
Oh, SharePoint.
Rob Collie (00:22:52):
Yeah. SharePoint. Kerberos It's the worst thing ever.
Adam Saxton (00:22:53):
SharePoint Integration with reporting services. I knew everything about it because nobody else wanted to touch it.
Rob Collie (00:22:59):
Yeah. And Power Pivot for SharePoint, right?
Adam Saxton (00:23:01):
Yes. The gallery. The gallery with Silverlight. That was amazing.
Rob Collie (00:23:05):
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Adam Saxton (00:23:07):
Yes. Good times.
Rob Collie (00:23:07):
I think Power Pivot for SharePoint was the peak awkward server product. It was-
Adam Saxton (00:23:13):
It was so awful.
Rob Collie (00:23:14):
Oh.
Adam Saxton (00:23:14):
It was so bad to set up and so fragile.
Rob Collie (00:23:18):
Yeah. At the company I was with, when I first left Microsoft, we eventually resorted to writing agents that were just constantly polling to see if various services had died.
Adam Saxton (00:23:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:23:28):
And if they had, forget trying to diagnose it, don't even try to get to root cause.
Adam Saxton (00:23:33):
Just no. Just restart it.
Rob Collie (00:23:33):
Just restart it.
Adam Saxton (00:23:34):
Just restart.
Rob Collie (00:23:34):
Restart it automatically. "Oh, it's out? It'll be back. It's no big deal."
Adam Saxton (00:23:38):
Yes. I actually had a blog post one time. I titled the blog post When in Doubt, Reboot. It just fixed it. It's not worth going into any of the other details.
Rob Collie (00:23:50):
And move the parrot.
Adam Saxton (00:23:51):
Yes. Move the parrot.
Rob Collie (00:23:52):
Definitely move the parrot.
Adam Saxton (00:23:53):
Move the parrot.
Rob Collie (00:23:54):
All right. Let's-
Thomas LaRock (00:23:55):
Woo.
Adam Saxton (00:23:57):
That was my 200-plus pound dog getting a little excited.
Rob Collie (00:24:00):
Oh, that's okay. That's okay. I've got a combined 200 pounds of dog.
Adam Saxton (00:24:06):
I have five dogs, but he's the biggest.
Rob Collie (00:24:09):
I have two dogs, four cats.
Adam Saxton (00:24:13):
I don't like cats.
Rob Collie (00:24:14):
Yeah. I didn't either for a long time.
Adam Saxton (00:24:16):
Yeah, nice.
Rob Collie (00:24:16):
Now I've converted.
Adam Saxton (00:24:18):
I will never like cats.
Rob Collie (00:24:18):
Yeah. You know how it is.
Adam Saxton (00:24:20):
I'm on the Power BI cat team, but I don't like cats.
Rob Collie (00:24:23):
You know how it is, if you don't like scotch and you're around someone that really likes scotch and you say, "I don't like scotch." You know what's going to happen is you're going to spend the next couple of hours drinking scotch.
Adam Saxton (00:24:34):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:24:36):
And at the end of it, you're like, "Nope."
Adam Saxton (00:24:39):
I'd like to say that's how I got into Jägermeister, but that's not what happened.
Rob Collie (00:24:42):
No, that's not how anyone-
Adam Saxton (00:24:44):
I just got it and I'm a like, "Sure, I'll try it." I'm like, "Oh, this is delicious."
Rob Collie (00:24:48):
Oh, really?
Adam Saxton (00:24:48):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:24:48):
It wasn't a lot of people standing around you, chanting, "Go, go, go"?
Adam Saxton (00:24:52):
No, this was the whole, the incident thing I was referring to earlier with, and Tom was part of that.
Rob Collie (00:24:59):
All right. Well, I do want to get to that.
Adam Saxton (00:25:00):
Yes, okay.
Rob Collie (00:25:01):
I want to get to that.
Adam Saxton (00:25:02):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:25:03):
But just chronologically, I'm the worst about this, staying on topic.
Adam Saxton (00:25:08):
Yes, we're not there yet.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:10):
Okay. I'm going to get ready for it though. I'm going to bring up on Swarm-
Adam Saxton (00:25:15):
Yes, there is a check in on a location.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:16):
... the Adam Saxton memorial washroom.
Adam Saxton (00:25:19):
Yes. I have a screenshot of that.
Rob Collie (00:25:22):
All right. You know what? Let's save this for late in the podcast. It's like the reward for people who stick around.
Adam Saxton (00:25:28):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:25:28):
You know?
Adam Saxton (00:25:28):
Yes. Stay tuned till the end where you hear this embarrassing moment.
Rob Collie (00:25:32):
That's right. That's right. It's not like they have fast forward technology in podcasts.
Adam Saxton (00:25:38):
No.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:38):
There's nothing embarrassing about Jägermeister.
Adam Saxton (00:25:40):
No. But no, there's... Sure.
Rob Collie (00:25:43):
Okay. Look at that restraint. I saw it.
Adam Saxton (00:25:46):
Yes, sure.
Rob Collie (00:25:47):
I could feel that restraint.
Adam Saxton (00:25:49):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:25:49):
Okay. So let's go back.
Adam Saxton (00:25:50):
It's taunting me. I want to jump right in and I'm holding back.
Rob Collie (00:25:54):
So you're awsaxton, you're on Twitter.
Adam Saxton (00:25:58):
I'm just a guy in a cube, doing the work.
Rob Collie (00:26:01):
Lower case guy in a cube, right?
Adam Saxton (00:26:04):
Yeah. Just, I was literally in a cubicle, in a Las Colinas, just doing support cases.
Rob Collie (00:26:09):
Yeah. I was laughing when you said, "I was supporting SQL, but not actually doing any SQL."
Adam Saxton (00:26:13):
Yeah, I wasn't doing SQL.
Rob Collie (00:26:15):
Yeah. Well, that's okay. At the same time I was a SQL server at MPB and wasn't doing any SQL.
Adam Saxton (00:26:18):
Right, yes.
Rob Collie (00:26:19):
That was just sort of what we did. SQL was this gigantic catchall branding thing. Data platform's probably more accurate. So a number of things change for you. If you fast forward to today. I don't have the chronology.
Adam Saxton (00:26:32):
Yeah. I didn't give you the timeline.
Rob Collie (00:26:34):
That's okay. That's what we're here for. We're here for the origin story.
Adam Saxton (00:26:37):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:26:37):
That's what we want.
Adam Saxton (00:26:38):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:26:39):
What was the vat that you fell into, or the radiation you were exposed to turn into your current form?
Adam Saxton (00:26:45):
I would say that that was Bob Ward is what did that.
Rob Collie (00:26:49):
Well, at a high level, there's really two questions. Number one, there's the transition from SQL, if you will, to such a strong presence in Power BI today.
Rob Collie (00:27:03):
... to such a strong presence in Power BI today.
Adam Saxton (00:27:04):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:27:04):
So, there's a very interesting, I think, evolution in even just in the type of technology that you work with.
Adam Saxton (00:27:11):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:27:12):
A lot of people, and I don't trivialize this because a lot of people struggle with a sequel to Power BI transition, even though you wouldn't necessarily expect it.
Adam Saxton (00:27:23):
Well, I mean, It's a different mindset.
Rob Collie (00:27:25):
It's totally a different mindset.
Adam Saxton (00:27:26):
I know.
Rob Collie (00:27:26):
Right. It's not surprising to me really, but it was when I first encountered it. It was news but the other one is, obviously, the transition from support to essentially a public figure.
Adam Saxton (00:27:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:27:38):
So, there's the Guy in a Cube, Twitter handle and show and brand, and all of that. How do these things all come to pass?
Adam Saxton (00:27:46):
I love working with technology, I love working with people. When I was in the SQL support group, a lot of the foundations for that evolved there. I've been very fortunate in my career path since high school on, that I've always naturally had a mentor of sorts.
Adam Saxton (00:28:02):
I always hate when the forced mentor, when I was in support, they were like, "You need to mentor X, Y, and Z." I'm like, "That's not how this works." I'm like, "I love when it's more naturally, it just comes about." I've always been able to... I've been fortunate to just have that regardless of where I was, and in SQL support that person was Bob Ward.
Adam Saxton (00:28:20):
He was very active in the community. I didn't even know the community existed before him. I didn't even know that was a thing. I remember when I was doing just actual, just Web development on my own that when I hit an issue, I was like, "I scour the forums." I'm trying to figure out an answer.
Adam Saxton (00:28:39):
I'm trying to reverse-engineer things. I didn't even know you could call support for help. I ended up working in support where people would have those problems and call up for help. I'm like, "I didn't even know that was the thing." I'm like, "Wow, that was amazing."
Adam Saxton (00:28:53):
So, I go through that, I get introduced to SQL PASS, and the SQL community at large get into Twitter. I start blogging because Bob asked me to start blogging with him and Bob adored. So, I'm giving back, I love that action. In support, we had this mantra of, they called it front of the funnel.
Adam Saxton (00:29:13):
So, what can we do for case deflection? At the time I was like, "Well, blogging is great because it's a one-to-many activity. I can just get it out there. People can search for it and find it." Then, that got to a point we did in this internal training, we called them triages where we spent an hour, someone would present on a topic, "How do you troubleshoot something?" Answer some questions. At that point, I'm like, "This is weird."
Adam Saxton (00:29:39):
I'm like, "This is great information to get out there." I would say 80-90% of it is not confidential. It's just like, what logs do you collect? What do you look for in the logs? Then, what do you go? What settings do you go change to address the issue? Nothing confidential.
Adam Saxton (00:29:55):
So, I was sitting there one time and I was just like, "You know what? I'm going to try this YouTube thing." Because I was doing the blogging. I was doing that, once a month I would do a blog. I'm like, "What if I did a video with the blog?" I'll start this YouTube channel, but what do I call it? I could have called it Adam Saxton, but I'm like, "I want something else."
Adam Saxton (00:30:15):
So, Bob would always say, we joke with him because he was the senior technical leader. He was like this principal architect, big poobah kind of person in the group. So, we'd always joke with him like, "you're up on high. We're just the folks in the trenches. This is what we do."
Adam Saxton (00:30:33):
He would always laugh. He's like, "Dude, I'm just a guy in a cube." We were all in cubes at the time. He's like, "I'm just a guy in a cube." So, I was like, "Man, if I steal that?" He's like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "Well, I'm creating this YouTube channel and I want to do a branding thing." I just want to call it Guy in a Cube because I aligned with him in his mentality of approaching that stuff. He's like, "Yeah, that's fine, whatever."
Adam Saxton (00:30:53):
I remember, he and I talking, it was about a year or two ago and he's like, "I had no idea this would become this." I'm like, "I didn't, either. So, here we are." That's the philosophy I've had is I'm just doing the work. Even when I present, I'll say like, I'm a PM on the product team, I don't care about the title. The official title is Principal program manager.
Adam Saxton (00:31:16):
I never put the Principal in there. Other people will for me, I don't care about that. I'm just here helping you. I don't care where I'm at in the org chart. I'm just trying to help you fix something. That's what I like to do and that's what I've always done in support. Going in, that's what made me do the blogging, that's what made me do the video now for six years. That's what we're still doing.
Rob Collie (00:31:38):
I remember, Guy in a Cube used to be you.
Adam Saxton (00:31:42):
It was just me.
Rob Collie (00:31:43):
In a cube?
Adam Saxton (00:31:43):
This was part of the problem was I didn't have any forethought. I actually thought it was going to be shut down. So, when I first started, I told my... I love gear. If you can't tell, I know folks listening to this, can't see it. But most people understand that production quality on my end is very good. I like gear, I like spending money on gear.
Adam Saxton (00:32:03):
My wife knows that. When I first started doing, I'm like, "Yeah, I want to buy this, this, and this." She's like, "Let's hold on. Why don't we figure out if this is actually just going to be another six-month fad for you before we start spending a lot of money."
Adam Saxton (00:32:18):
So, I was like, "Fair enough." Then, I think, was two years into it, I was like, "I don't think it's a fad, honey." She's like, "No, you're right." When I went to go get the camera I'm on now for my main videos, I mean that's a $6,000 rig and she even... She's like, "Yeah, get it." I'm like, "Okay, let's get it."
Rob Collie (00:32:35):
The picture of your setup, your gear that you sent to us backstage, Luke was getting pretty jealous. Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:32:42):
He and I were talking a little bit before and he was just like, "Oh my gosh." I was showing up because I've got all my stream. This is my actual live-stream setup. So, I can just touch of a button and do a bunch of things and it's amazing.
Rob Collie (00:32:53):
They didn't give Luke that level of gear when he was working at the radio station.
Adam Saxton (00:32:57):
Yeah. I know because they had to worry with budgets and all that. I don't care. I just spent money on stuff. It's the Banana setup.
Rob Collie (00:33:06):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:33:07):
It was that evolution of like that's my passions now in life have become Power BI as a technology is a passion. Then, my other passion is turned into video production and the YouTube side of it. The fact that I can marry both of those together from Guy in a Cube standpoint is just, it's a love of doing it and that's what's kept it going. It's been an incredible journey on that front.
Rob Collie (00:33:31):
You did me without knowing it, you did me a huge favor. I just loved your early videos. It was so freeing to see the way you edited.
Adam Saxton (00:33:40):
I had no idea what I was doing.
Rob Collie (00:33:42):
But it Totally worked. There would obviously be splicing together of several takes in your videos. It was just like calm and confident the way you did it. Just no transition, no fade, nothing like that. [crosstalk 00:33:56]
Adam Saxton (00:33:56):
Just hard cuts.
Rob Collie (00:33:57):
Just hard jump cuts.
Adam Saxton (00:33:59):
That's The YouTube way. That's the thing is I've always looked at what others are doing to understand. That's how I learned. I learned by example and by doing it. At the time, I didn't know anything about video production or YouTube or anything. I didn't know. I went and bought Camtasia. How do I even use this? It's all self-taught. Even today, I'm still learning new things. I actually have a video editor now.
Adam Saxton (00:34:28):
Up until September of last year, I edited everything. Every all post-production was me. Patrick didn't do anything. All he did was turn on the camera, record it, drop it in this OneDrive folder and it just magically showed up on YouTube. That's all he ever did. People would always ask him, "What do you use to do all?" He's like, "I have no idea. Go ask Adam." Now, I've got a video editor so that has given a lot of my life back to me.
Rob Collie (00:34:54):
Let's talk about that. It's like when you make a movie, the actors have no idea how good the movie's going to be.
Adam Saxton (00:35:01):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:35:02):
The movies are made in the editing room.
Adam Saxton (00:35:04):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:35:05):
The same is true for YouTube videos.
Adam Saxton (00:35:09):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:35:09):
So, it is hard to outsource the editing of your videos.
Adam Saxton (00:35:17):
It was like letting go of my baby. I like video editing. I do a weekly Roundup on Mondays. I'm still editing those because it's a really fast turnaround, but the video editors editing the main technical videos. I remember, Patrick first saw it and he's like, "Adam, you have to stop editing my videos." I'm like, "Yes, I agree. That's why we're doing this." I'm like, "Because they're better at what they're doing."
Rob Collie (00:35:40):
But it's still a challenge there. In that video editor, you find someone who's good at editing video, they don't come from your subject matter.
Adam Saxton (00:35:49):
Nope.
Rob Collie (00:35:49):
They don't necessarily have the same, I don't know, sort of tone in their fingers that you would... How do you sort of maintain the direction of the content? There's some edits you can make that actually will result in something that's misleading on a technical basis.
Adam Saxton (00:36:05):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:36:05):
Right?
Adam Saxton (00:36:05):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:36:05):
Even though it was a good video edit, how do you quality-control for that? How do you train and pass that kind of tribal knowledge off?
Adam Saxton (00:36:13):
I will tell you that. So, the video editor, it's actually a team of three people. So, I never know which one of that three people is actually editing the video. It's coming from their company. I will tell you that I've given little to no direction to them on any of it. We'll do an edit pass, so they'll put it up on Frame.io and I look over and I'm like, "Yep, good to go. No edits needed." There was one video, where it was super in the weeds. I think it was around Power BI embedded. So, it was like, they needed some help on that.
Rob Collie (00:36:47):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:36:48):
But I've been very fortunate that they are very good at what they do. I think some of it also comes to the way Patrick and I go through the content and the way we lead through it, that it's fairly obvious where we're going.
Adam Saxton (00:37:02):
I think some of that is just the style that we've had, we try and make it as simple as possible. By doing that, even if you don't know anything about it, you kind of understand the context of where we're at and what we're doing. I think that's helped them from an edit perspective as well.
Rob Collie (00:37:19):
We're living that experience right now with the podcast, we really do a good job with it. I say we, I mean, Luke.
Adam Saxton (00:37:24):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:37:25):
Outsourcing, post-production, it's easy to say.
Adam Saxton (00:37:29):
It's always interesting too. One thing I do miss also as editing Patrick's videos, he will comment on the videos too. He's like, "Oh my gosh, Adam. I'm so sorry, man. I totally... Just cut. Cut all this out." I'm like, "No, I'm going to cut this out." I'm like, "Yes. Obviously, you screwed that up."
Adam Saxton (00:37:48):
So, he'll add color to some of the things he's doing and it's great. He did this one thing and the first video that our video editor did, Patrick did this thing subconsciously, where he likes to use a phrase like, "Look, this is going to show you your ugly baby. You've got an ugly baby.
Adam Saxton (00:38:04):
You're not admitting it and we're going to show it to you." So, he did this thing. He's like, "Look doing this action is just going to give you a nice-looking baby." She put this whole Lego, little baby wrap over his arms. It was like, "Oh my gosh, that is so good." That was awesome. But he'll do those things, or he's a lot more spontaneous than I am.
Rob Collie (00:38:26):
I think, you're pretty spontaneous.
Adam Saxton (00:38:29):
When I brought him on though, I said, "Look, Patrick, we're both technical." He's very smart. But I said, "Look, I'm bringing you on for the entertainment. So, I'm more of the corporate kind of feel and you're the entertainer. We balance each other."
Adam Saxton (00:38:42):
That's why it's stuff that we present, it's always better when we do it together than if we do it separate because he's chaos and I'm order. He's funny and I'm more of the like, "Let's just get down to business." I've learned some things from him. He learns from me. It's a very good relationship on that front.
Rob Collie (00:39:00):
Well, let's continue the evolution. So, you started the YouTube channel while you were still officially in support.
Adam Saxton (00:39:07):
December, 2014.
Rob Collie (00:39:09):
Okay. Now, it's quote-unquote, just an unpaid side gig habit...
Adam Saxton (00:39:15):
Was a hobby.
Rob Collie (00:39:16):
Hobby.
Adam Saxton (00:39:17):
Labor of love.
Rob Collie (00:39:17):
Right. Okay. At some point along the way, it becomes a part of your official... I don't even know. It's such an untraditional arrangement.
Adam Saxton (00:39:27):
It's never been part of my day job. It's never been.
Rob Collie (00:39:30):
Okay. Your job changed at Microsoft at some point.
Adam Saxton (00:39:35):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:39:35):
I don't know actually the details of the relationship of Guy in a Cube to Microsoft.
Adam Saxton (00:39:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:39:42):
What can you tell us about all of that? It's really kind of cool.
Adam Saxton (00:39:46):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:39:46):
Not what I would expect.
Adam Saxton (00:39:47):
So, this is one of those things where I tell people, where this was something I never asked permission, I just started doing it. I'm like, "Look, I've got a passion. I see a need and an opportunity." From the Microsoft side, I've always looked at things. I'm like, "Look, I always have had the flexibility to do the right thing as it aligns to the business."
Adam Saxton (00:40:08):
Because that's what they care about is we need to make sure we're aligning to our core business priorities and what we're doing. As long as everything is met there, we have a ton of flexibility of what we can do, whether it's taking the initiative to do certain things and trying to help. So, I saw this as it's an opportunity. I'm not going to ask for permission. I'm just going to start doing the being mindful of the business. So, I'm not slamming Microsoft. I'm not.
Adam Saxton (00:40:34):
I'm being very thoughtful and just trying to help people. As part of that, I remember, right when I started doing the Guy in a Cube stuff, nobody knew who I was, from that standpoint. I already had a lot of relationships on the product team, just from the support interactions that I've had. I was on-site in Redmond with the engineering teams for a week.
Adam Saxton (00:40:58):
This was right when James Phillips came in, who's now the president of Business Applications Group, who owns Power Platform and Dynamics at the time though, he was brought on for Power BI. So, I just set up a one-on-one with him. I was like, "Hey, I'm in support. I want to make sure we understand the relationship and how in support can we help you from an engineering side? This Power BI thing is just going to be rolling out.
Adam Saxton (00:41:22):
We want to make sure that we're ramped up to be able to support this." Then, I also mentioned, I was like, "By the way, I've also started this video and I'm doing blogging, this Guy in a Cube thing, and I'm doing technical videos to help people out." He's like, "I love it. Sounds amazing. Keep doing it." I always thought marketing was going to shut me down because I've always done my own thing. I'm not necessarily aligning to the core messaging that they want to do, but no, even the marketing folks are telling me, they love it. It's great.
Adam Saxton (00:41:51):
I'm just promoting the product and helping people adopt it and whatnot. That went on and that's how I kind of became that Power BI guy. No one in support wanted to touch it because, in support, it's always about what are the call volumes that are coming in. What are we getting calls on, that's where we're going to go focus. I saw this Power BI thing. I'm like, "This is where the product team is going. This is the direction nobody's paying attention to it." Nobody is paying attention to it because we're getting no calls.
Adam Saxton (00:42:23):
This was in the original Power BI for Office 365 before what it is today. So, I said, "Look, I'm going to be that guy." So, I just started digging into it. I started meeting with the engineering teams. I'm like, "Okay, where are the specs for this? How does this actually work? What's the flow? How are these things connected?" I just started playing with it.
Adam Saxton (00:42:41):
Then, I started doing videos on it and then we started getting calls, but it was such a low volume that they routed all of those calls just to me, because it was seriously, maybe five calls a week. It was nothing. So, the videos and blogs I was doing were basically the summaries of the support calls that I was getting. This was the scenario and this is how we fixed this. This is how this works.
Rob Collie (00:43:03):
This is so parallel to me to what I did with my blog around PowerPivot. It was like it was in this place that kind of no one cared about.
Adam Saxton (00:43:13):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:43:14):
The existing Analysis Services folks in the community...
Adam Saxton (00:43:18):
I was there in support when all of that came out.
Rob Collie (00:43:20):
Mostly, Analysis Services crew in the community had no interest in this thing that was embedded in Excel.
Adam Saxton (00:43:27):
No, that was like, "This is just a cute little thing they're playing around with. It's never going to make it."
Rob Collie (00:43:31):
I had moved to the Mid West and so I needed a new job. So, I just started blogging about it. Most of my blog posts for the first three years were just things that I was doing with PowerPivot in my day job, problems that I've had to solve and overcome, and all of that. Like you, I didn't really know or expect it to turn into what it...
Adam Saxton (00:43:55):
I had no forethought on where this was going. I was like, "It's just me. I'm toying around. Maybe, at some point, I'll stop it. I don't know."
Rob Collie (00:44:02):
I started the blog primarily as just like a digital resume.
Adam Saxton (00:44:05):
See, I wasn't even thinking about that, either. Because I was like, "I'm in support. I'm not going anywhere." All of my thought and focus on that was like, "I'm just helping customers." That's all I was doing. I didn't really think about any other aspect of it.
Adam Saxton (00:44:17):
I was just like, "Look, I just want to give back to the community." Seriously, that was all I thought about. I should have thought more about it at the time and I didn't. Looking back, I was like, "I made a lot of mistakes."
Rob Collie (00:44:28):
Yeah. You wouldn't, if you just planned it out a little better, you wouldn't be the massive failure that you are today.
Adam Saxton (00:44:33):
Right. Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:44:35):
Yeah. You're really...
Adam Saxton (00:44:36):
I'm glad you recognized that.
Rob Collie (00:44:37):
Yeah. You're really a disappointment to all of us, Adam. That's why we had you on the show, really.
Adam Saxton (00:44:41):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:44:42):
You know?
Adam Saxton (00:44:43):
Yes. You just wanted to just bash me in and give me the reckoning that is needed.
Rob Collie (00:44:49):
You finally met your match.
Adam Saxton (00:44:51):
Yes. This is the intervention call, right? That's what this is.
Rob Collie (00:44:56):
I don't know. We're pretty bad at that.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:00):
So, I want to ask something about Guy in the Cube.
Adam Saxton (00:45:03):
Guy in a Cube, not the Cube.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:05):
The comment that you made was, it's not part of your day job.
Adam Saxton (00:45:08):
Yep.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:09):
So, do you do all the recording in your off hours then?
Adam Saxton (00:45:14):
Yes. Honestly, in my day job, I'm always busy doing the day job. I don't have time for doing the Guy in a Cube stuff.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:20):
My question was going to be more about like, you have to have some level of support at Microsoft and you did mention that the marketing team...
Adam Saxton (00:45:27):
I mean, they didn't. They loved me doing it, but they didn't.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:29):
That's right.
Adam Saxton (00:45:30):
Yeah. They didn't stop me.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:30):
No. That's what I'm saying is that they didn't stop you. You have some level of support and encouragement from your employer for what you [crosstalk 00:45:37].
Adam Saxton (00:45:37):
That's always been there.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:37):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:45:37):
Yes. That's always been. Every manager I've had and the different teams that I've been on... Once I left support, part of the thing that I had and I had this in my mind and when I left support, I was still... Maybe, not even 10,000 subscribers yet when that happened. But even at that point, I knew that I was the... I've told every manager since then I was like, "Look, I'm going, to be honest with you the day that you tell me to quit YouTube or stop it is the day I leave Microsoft."
Adam Saxton (00:46:07):
I was like, "I'm just going to say that, right now." So, I'm like, "Let's come to an agreement. Let's come to an understanding. But if you are against that, then..." That's actually part of the reason why I left support was because they were starting to say, they're like, "Look, we see everything you're doing on certain things. We really want your community involvement."
Adam Saxton (00:46:22):
Because I was doing other things outside of Guy in a Cube, but I was just really focused on community and they were starting to put the cramp down saying, I shouldn't do the Guy in a Cube stuff. I'm like, "Well, that has nothing to do with my day job stuff. I'm still doing." They're like, "Yes, but we don't want you to focus that much on, we only want you to do 10% of community engagement." I'm like, "Well, I want to do 100%. Maybe, I need to go find a different gig."
Adam Saxton (00:46:46):
So, I did, but every manager I've had... So, when I left support, I went to the Power BI documentation team because it was content-related. I felt like that was more in line from then support because video and that stuff is content. So, I'm like, "This kind of aligns." But even then, they were like... Everyone on the engineering team, the marketing teams, and then my managers on the product side, I've always been very supportive of the Guy in a Cube.
Adam Saxton (00:47:11):
They want that to still happen. When I was brought on the Power BI CAT team, obviously folks there knew I had my technical acumen was there. My manager was very upfront and he's like, "Look, he's like, I want the Guy in a Cube. This is like the CAT team is the A-team of people working on the Power BI product. I want Guy in a Cube as part of this." I'm like, "Okay. Let's do it."
Rob Collie (00:47:34):
I imagine That somewhere back in the hallways of Redmond and the marketing department, there was the equivalent of the... Should we let him into the Janitor's Closet kind of conversation?
Rob Collie (00:47:43):
There was someone saying, "No, this guy's out there sort of doing marketing on our behalf. He's rogue. We need to reign him in." Someone said, "No, let him into the closet, give him the access." You got support, not support, or the lack of opposition.
Adam Saxton (00:47:59):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:48:00):
Knowing Microsoft, there was definitely a conversation at some point.
Adam Saxton (00:48:04):
At this point of where I'm at now, I've actually heard some things about conversations that have happened and for different reasons but I know that stuff about that has happened. I don't necessarily know the details of it, but...
Rob Collie (00:48:18):
But now it's too late. There's no way they can go back. You're like, "What do you know, who I am?"
Adam Saxton (00:48:26):
Yeah. No, I don't.
Rob Collie (00:48:26):
You don't seem like that kind of guy.
Adam Saxton (00:48:28):
No, I'm not. I remember, Amir Netz, who's the CTO for Power BI, we were at a conference one time, just having dinner. There was a bunch of us there and he's just like, "Wow, you became the face of Power BI." He's like, "How'd you do that?" I'm like, "one video at a time for six years." I'm like, "I'm just there." I was there before anyone else.
Rob Collie (00:48:52):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:48:53):
It's just consistency. It's a lot of hard work. This is not easy.
Rob Collie (00:48:58):
Yeah, the grind.
Adam Saxton (00:48:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:00):
I was two blog posts a week. You've made fun of how long my blog posts are in the past and they're encyclopedias. That's part of the reason why I don't do them anymore is because that just...
Adam Saxton (00:49:08):
A lot of work.
Rob Collie (00:49:10):
There's too many other things competing for my time. Plus honestly, there's so many people even at our company, who are so much better at these tools than I ever was, I sort of feel like I had my run. I want to do something different now.
Adam Saxton (00:49:25):
I could see from your perspective, letting other people shine, where their strong suits are, and let them help them build up what you're working on and building.
Rob Collie (00:49:34):
I go to my own company's people, my own team with DAX questions.
Adam Saxton (00:49:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:41):
It's like, "Why didn't you write a book on that?" "Well, yeah."
Adam Saxton (00:49:45):
Yeah. I did.
Rob Collie (00:49:46):
But it turns out you're still a lot better.
Adam Saxton (00:49:47):
I'm old, so.
Rob Collie (00:49:50):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:49:52):
There's that.
Rob Collie (00:49:52):
There's that too. Yeah. Okay. That's great. I didn't know any of that backstory and I've been really, keenly interested in it for a long time. So, you described Patrick as your business partner.
Adam Saxton (00:50:05):
Yep. He's my second wife. I described him that way as well.
Rob Collie (00:50:08):
Okay. So, business partner in Guy in a Cube?
Adam Saxton (00:50:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:50:12):
This is obvious but Microsoft doesn't own Guy in a Cube. It's not a Microsoft thing.
Adam Saxton (00:50:18):
That's correct.
Rob Collie (00:50:18):
So, you've got your own LLC or whatever.
Adam Saxton (00:50:22):
I do now. Yeah. I didn't, originally.
Rob Collie (00:50:23):
Yeah. That's fascinating. So, you work two jobs.
Adam Saxton (00:50:27):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:50:28):
I think a lot of people would probably assume looking in from the outside that Guy in a Cube is part of your Microsoft duties.
Adam Saxton (00:50:35):
Well, I've had people comment on things, especially, when I first started doing it. There was one video I did in 2015 where I actually had some friends of mine, they had some camera gear and they helped me film something.
Adam Saxton (00:50:47):
I actually did that video on the Power BI YouTube channel, because they had asked me to... At the time, I wasn't monetizing anything. I was so small. I was just helping out. The comment on that video was, "Wow, Microsoft really stepped up their production quality." I'm like, "Yeah. No, they didn't. That was me."
Rob Collie (00:51:05):
All right. Let's talk about your day job then.
Adam Saxton (00:51:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:51:09):
What does that look like?
Adam Saxton (00:51:10):
So, the way I describe is the Power BI CAT team or the customer advisory team or something... I actually don't even remember what CAT stands for anymore because we just always call it CAT and it's customer advisory team or something like that. The way I describe this to people, because when we come in and they say, "We're part of the CAT team." They're like, "I have no idea what that is."
Adam Saxton (00:51:29):
That's why I just don't even say it. I'm like, "We're a team of elite ninjas that drop in and help unblock you to gain adoption with Power BI." They're like, "Well, that makes sense." Our team deals with the largest customers, enterprise customers working with Power BI. Those, that are trying to push the limits and push the product, it's part of the product team.
Adam Saxton (00:51:47):
It's the voice of the customer for the engineering teams. We're working with it... It's honestly amazing, the level of amount of data that some of our customers are working with. So, I joke sometimes because there's people that will complain and say, "Well, I'm doing 300 million rows and Power BI just can't handle it."
Adam Saxton (00:52:10):
I'm like, "That's cute. That's itty-bitty data." So, I'm like, "I'm working with a customer, where they have a 100% imported into a tabular model of 1.5 billion rows inside a Power BI and that thing's running like a champ."
Rob Collie (00:52:22):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (00:52:22):
So, 300 million rows. I'm like, " Probably, got a bad data model."
Rob Collie (00:52:33):
Completely.
Adam Saxton (00:52:33):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:52:33):
Completely.
Adam Saxton (00:52:34):
Yes. That's, honestly. It's a broken record. That's what Patrick's and my day job. It was just like, you've got people coming in and saying, "I want to go to a P4 or P5 because I need more memory and space." I'm like, "No you don't. Give me 30 minutes and DAX Studio, and Tabular Editor. I'll give you 9-10 recommendations to optimize your model."
Rob Collie (00:52:53):
Boy, I bet, you see a lot of data models, quote-unquote, that are just one wide table.
Adam Saxton (00:52:59):
Yes. It's amazing. We had our Phil Seamark ended up joining our team. He was an MVP. I remember, a month or two after he joined the team, he's like, "Wow, I just had this in my head. I mean, these are the largest enterprise customers in the world.
Adam Saxton (00:53:14):
This is Fortune 500. These are all companies that everybody knows the name of these companies. I just imagine, they've got these rock-solid teams that are building this stuff and it's really going to push my... They're doing some really wonky things." I'm like, "One giant table with 300 columns." I'm like, "What are you doing?"
Rob Collie (00:53:34):
Well, this is where that sequel to Power BI transition really lands with both feet.
Adam Saxton (00:53:39):
Well, I'd say Excel to Power BI as well.
Rob Collie (00:53:42):
Well, but I mean, IT doesn't even understand Excel. The average IT professional can't write a VLOOKUP.
Adam Saxton (00:53:51):
In fairness, I can't write a VLOOKUP, either.
Rob Collie (00:53:53):
You never needed to. It's okay. We forgive you.
Adam Saxton (00:53:55):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:53:56):
True story. I'll hide the names.
Adam Saxton (00:53:58):
Protect the innocent.
Rob Collie (00:53:59):
Well, some of the people in this story are not...
Rob Collie (00:54:03):
Some of the people in this story are not innocent. So many people in this story are committing a sin.
Adam Saxton (00:54:08):
Data blasphemy.
Rob Collie (00:54:09):
Yeah. Well also just like an interpersonal bad human sin in my opinion, but we were a subcontractor to another contractor. Actually, there was a three level contract job. We don't usually do this kind of thing at all.
Adam Saxton (00:54:22):
Like layers of wrongness.
Rob Collie (00:54:23):
Layers of wrongness already. At one of the world's largest energy firms. We'll keep it like that. And there were different legs of this project. We were doing part of one part of it but then there was a sibling part that was like one universe over next to us. And they had brought in one of the big four accounting and consulting firms to do that part of it.
Rob Collie (00:54:48):
Now they were both power BI tabular. Right, all that kind of stuff. And you know, the 300 million rows, all that kind of stuff. Like we were loading just you know how it goes just insane amounts of data. Like every single transaction that ever like happened in the history of this company forever.
Adam Saxton (00:55:02):
And I need all of this.
Rob Collie (00:55:03):
And we were just crunching, just absolutely destroying it. You know, it was like, "oh, you want a 10 year trend"? no problem. It's just like we had it all. So in the meantime, our sibling, over in that other parallel universe, we kept hearing these rumors, like they're struggling to get one month of data loaded. And we go because you know, we're friendly people. Can we take a look? We can help.
Rob Collie (00:55:26):
And we got told, no, you are not allowed access to that closet. Right. We said, listen, we have the Big Four over there, and you know what else? The Big Four, that company, they sent their number one, Microsoft power BI expert to do this.
Adam Saxton (00:55:44):
All right.
Rob Collie (00:55:45):
And we go, oh, well then that must be something really complicated going on over there. We believe them. We're so naive. And then another two months goes by and they still can't get it, it's just a total failure. And so after hours, when like no one was looking, someone said, "Hey, can you come over and take a look?" We opened it up. Yep. One big wide table. And we're slapping our forehead, okay, this is how much dishonesty is running around in the world. And you know, the amount of money being charged for that number one, Ms. Power. it's [crosstalk 00:56:18].
Adam Saxton (00:56:18):
That and it's one of the Big Four. I'm like there's money there.
Rob Collie (00:56:21):
It was fraud. They were committing... It should be charged with a crime.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:27):
Hold on. Just remember this. When you graduate medical school, right. They're going to call you a doctor, but not every doctor graduates top of the class. So that company could legitimately be saying, this is my number one power BI guy, Microsoft. That doesn't mean he's top of the class.
Adam Saxton (00:56:45):
Yes. That's a fair statement.
Rob Collie (00:56:47):
But it's top of the class for them.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:50):
That's the best they could find. You know, that there's a dearth of people that can do proper data analysis. That was the best that they had.
Rob Collie (00:57:00):
I will tell you now, one of the struggles we have when we're getting into some of these engagements, I will be completely honest with you that there's only a handful of people that really understand how to do it. And they don't work at these companies.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:13):
Right. So I was surprised Rob, that you didn't know that guy. Because when they said, Hey here's you is our number one guy. He works at power BI I'm like you probably there's what a dozen of you in the world, you should have known exactly who that guy was. As soon as you didn't know him, you, you should have just questioned and go. Never heard of him.
Rob Collie (00:57:29):
Let Me let you guys in on a little secret.
Adam Saxton (00:57:30):
You don't Know everyone?
Rob Collie (00:57:32):
Well, I don't know everyone, but the world is every day right now, manufacturing, just legions of people who are really, really good at this. And they're all on the business side. And they're all well, not all but overwhelmingly unknown and underappreciated.
Adam Saxton (00:57:53):
Yep. I would Agree with that.
Rob Collie (00:57:54):
They're not going to find their way into that room where they had the Big Four best power BI expert deployed because it's just like a different career path. It's entirely too authentic essentially, to find yourself in that situation, I'll be completely fine. This is part of our business model. I believe this. I mean in a way that I bet my career on it. This is the future. It's the people who are good at business. Good at communicating. If, they come from a tech background. Great. But they also have to have this other stuff. It's this hybrid that we're always talking about on this show. I think that most IT organizations are really struggling to embrace this fact, that their best data modelers, their best BI people are that unknown man or woman hiding in the finance department. It's not the CFO. It's not even the director. Right? It's this hidden diamond in the rough, this gem. And they're everywhere. Now
Adam Saxton (00:58:56):
Working with one of my customers, there is that person, they work in finance and they came out of that world and he understands like all the finance aspects of stuff from the business side and he applies and he's an amazing data modeler. He's one of the best. And I've even said everyone needs that person in their company. We need clones of that person cause he's making amazing things. You and it's just incredible. And we do on the power BI CAT team, there's a program called the power BI enterprise voice, where we bring in direct people from those enterprise customers. And they have direct communication with feedback with the engineering teams. And one of the things we try and do is get someone from the business persona and then someone from the technical persona to try and get both represented in the program.
Adam Saxton (00:59:44):
And I'll be honest, like the technical folks are good and I enjoy working with them. But the business folks, we seem to get more and or different types of feedback come from the business folks that tend to be more actionable than the technical cause the technical, we get on the tech side, we just get siloed in on this problem or this specific space instead of understanding the whole picture of that business side, along with it and how that would impact. And so having those business folks as part of that discussion is very important.
Rob Collie (01:00:13):
Well, I'm glad that's also showing up on your radar. I think that as an outsider now, I think that Microsoft tends to miss this in my conversations with Redmond. It's very, very often about what it takes to convince a CIO, to commit to power BI as a platform. I see that a lot. And then I love that you are more engaged on the adoption side. What happens after you make the sale?
Adam Saxton (01:00:43):
Well, I mean we're still engaged. So, where there as part of the adoption, but then it's an ongoing discussion of, I mean, I've been working with companies that have been using power BI for years, but it's still about adoption, right? It's about growth. It's about how else can we help you within the business? You know, help us scale it up. All of that. The other thing I would say is one thing I, I would agree in the beginning of my Microsoft career you're right. It was all about, we got to convince the CIO or the CMO or the CDO, like some C level has got to make that decision. Whereas now I've seen that conversation shift more to we need to find the influencer and it doesn't necessarily have to be the C level. Maybe it's a director level type person. Some of that has enough influence and has those connections in the business to help us be that sponsor and to push that. And we do have evidence that absolutely helps from an adoption perspective. And typically I'll be honest. I'll lot of times that person's in finance.
Rob Collie (01:01:40):
Yes that's our experience as well.
Adam Saxton (01:01:43):
If you Can find that person, sometimes we're not as successful there, but sometimes we are. Or sometimes that person that's in that influence role is not necessarily pro Microsoft, which is hard. And sometimes that's forced upon them. It's just interesting to see it's definitely moved away from the C level. Although those discussions do happen, especially at certain companies, but it's more about the influencer who can actually influence that decision from a business side of it. That's how we're going to grow adoption and actually get past the self-service grassroots stuff into real, the mix of the service and the IT central type of implementation.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:23):
I was going to ask you, Adam, you used to travel how much? 50% or?
Adam Saxton (01:02:30):
I always like to say it was 25%, but I think it was closer to 50% at certain points there were peaks and valleys, but yeah.
Rob Collie (01:02:37):
Yeah, Same.
Adam Saxton (01:02:37):
That was all self inflicted by the way. That was just because I wanted to go to conferences and speak and...
Thomas LaRock (01:02:42):
Sure. Yeah. But I remember specifically the time that you were trying to get home to Houston and it was flooding. Right. And I've been there as well where I've been on the road and something's happening at home.
Adam Saxton (01:02:59):
Yeah. It was Hurricane Harvey.
Thomas LaRock (01:03:00):
Yeah. And usually for me, it's like a snowstorm and my family makes the best they can when I'm not here to clear it all the way. But I've had incidents and where I couldn't get home and I think it was the same for you. And I thought you might want... I think there are people out there that experience, that same thing where you're on the road. It's self-inflicted as you said, it's something you're doing that you love, you enjoy. And at the same time, there's something just weighing on you. You're like I need to get home.
Adam Saxton (01:03:31):
Oh. And I was constantly talking to my wife, getting status, looking at the weather, looking at the news. And I was coming from Israel and there was a stop in Newark, New Jersey and then from Newark to Houston. And when I got to Newark and I'm looking, I'm like, there's no way we're going to take off because it's the storm's going to be right over Houston at the time that we're supposed to land. We took off and I'm, constantly in contact with my wife saying like, look, I'm, going to try, make sure you're safe, what do you need. Thankfully, her parents were about an hour and a half away. She wasn't necessarily alone, but yes it was, nerve-wracking absolutely a hundred percent just worried about them. And I there's nothing. Absolutely nothing I can do. cause I'm not there.
Thomas LaRock (01:04:18):
Yes, exactly you're sitting there. There's nothing more that I can do. There's nothing I can lift. There's nothing, right. It's just this emotionally draining experience. And for those of us that hit the road from time to time, I don't think people understand that enough. It's not just being away. There's also all sorts of things. You know, I've missed soccer games and things like that. But the times I wasn't able to come home and I get home and they're telling me, "It was an ice storm and we had no power and you could just hear that the branches of the trees just breaking and creaking all night and we couldn't sleep." And I'm like, okay, this... So you, you have to have that balance between everything you're doing.
Adam Saxton (01:05:07):
Well and everything I've done too. it's conversation with my wife as well, understanding the family and making sure we're not impacting anything there and the balance of work, play and family.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:20):
Now the play part, see everybody thinks my kids are oh, you're going to all these places. And it's all happy, fun play time.
Adam Saxton (01:05:30):
Yeah. It's just a party. It's just always a party.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:32):
And it's not, it really isn't except for the times where it is. so my first trip to Damastown, I was the president of pass and I was asked to go over to attend their 10th anniversary celebration. And they were holding this sequel conference in Damastown. Stop. Yes. And it's easy to get there. You're fly to Frankfurt.
Adam Saxton (01:05:54):
Frankfurt, the airport that is the bane of my existence.
Thomas LaRock (01:05:59):
I don't mind Frankfurt.
Adam Saxton (01:06:00):
Oh, I had an experience there. So [inaudible 01:06:02]
Thomas LaRock (01:06:02):
I [inaudible 01:06:03] mine.
Adam Saxton (01:06:04):
Oh, okay. I've never been to that one.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:07):
I love the event. It's probably my favorite event of the year. And I can't go this year and that's really, it's sad. The thing about the Germans and this is mostly for Rob's benefit. So they, they threw this 10th anniversary party my first year and it was fabulous. It was, it was a lot of fun. They had a lot of fun putting it together and it was a nice environment to be in. It was to explain it for Rob. It was really like being with another extended family. And what's weird for me is all these people kind of knew me. They'd come up to me. They'd thanked me for my work with past. And I'm like, I really have no idea who you are. This is my first trip to Germany. Who are you? So at some point that first night somebody there, they're German. So there's a meeting of two cultures happening here. First is the love of Jägermeister for the SQL community at that point in time. And I'm in the home of Jägermeister right? Jägermeister comes from a little town, not [crosstalk 01:07:10].
Adam Saxton (01:07:09):
Going through the Frankfurt airport and there's just massive displays in the [inaudible 01:07:14]
Thomas LaRock (01:07:14):
So they bring out two handles of Jägermeister and it's special. Jägermeister, because it comes from the town and somebody brought it in specifically for their birthday celebration. And so we finished those bottles and there were a lot of people. It wasn't just like, [crosstalk 01:07:29] yeah,
Adam Saxton (01:07:29):
It's not just six men in a corner finishing two bottles.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:32):
Right, they were a lot anyway.
Adam Saxton (01:07:34):
And these bottles are not small bottles.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:36):
They're handles. That's a 1.75. It's big. I get to go back the following year and they're like, okay, next thing I know there's two bottles of Jägermeister. I'm like, are we doing this again?
Adam Saxton (01:07:47):
I have very similar experience.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:49):
Are we doing this again? I thought that was just for your birthday. They're like, no, no, So Adam shows up at SQL conference one year and [crosstalk 01:08:01].
Adam Saxton (01:08:01):
So naive, and naive Little Adam
Thomas LaRock (01:08:05):
We're at their basically attendee event. They have some food, they have some drinks and we grab some seats and I forget how many, maybe a dozen of us were just hanging out, getting caught up for a lot of us, talking with people from all over the world. Right. But at some point during the night out comes those two bottles and they always find me. They're like Mr. Jägermeister. They bring the bottles straight to me. And of course Adam's right next to me.
Adam Saxton (01:08:34):
You were the second half of that. That was the second bottle I had parked. I was already halfway gone by the time I got to you. Okay. So there's a whole other part of it before I even got to you.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:44):
So the play part. So the incident, I don't want to get into too many details, but I have a feeling
Adam Saxton (01:08:50):
I'll get into the details.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:51):
Okay. Yeah. well,
Adam Saxton (01:08:52):
Some of the details,
Thomas LaRock (01:08:53):
Right, some of the details because I don't think you remember.
Adam Saxton (01:08:56):
This is one of the few moments in my life where I... So people have told me. So like the whole, the check-in thing
Thomas LaRock (01:09:03):
On swarm. Yes.
Adam Saxton (01:09:04):
I don't remember that part.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:05):
No. Well we, we created the Adam Saxton Memorial washroom in your honor. Specifically because of events that night.
Adam Saxton (01:09:13):
Oh no, I got that part. So Karen Lopez was with us as well. Yes. And so I distinctly remember waking up the next morning going, I just remember there was something about level nine. Karen was talking to me about something level nine. I don't know if that was real. I had to go look. It was like some NASA like level nine tours at the Houston facility.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:36):
Right.
Adam Saxton (01:09:36):
And I had to look that up because I was like, was that real? Or am I just imagining that? Because, we had this whole conversation about it. I'm like, oh that was real. All right. I'm good. I'm right.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:45):
The lesson. I always try to tell, especially when that first time visitors, the secret conference is pace yourself because the Jägermeister is coming.
Adam Saxton (01:09:53):
Remember. So like the shots that I got, these were not small shots. It's not like a little shot glass. This was like a big cup. And it's like got a good, healthy portion inside of it. And I think I had nine of those out of two separate bottles.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:06):
So, and the thing about Jägermeister is that it really is something you can have a lot more of than you need. I really enjoyed the event. Not just for the Jägermeister, but the camaraderie. Yes. The, the feeling of closeness with all those people that I've met for. And I've gone for six or seven years now. But I do remember, so Adam has not returned since.
Adam Saxton (01:10:27):
No I had two. I went the year after that as well.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:30):
Did you?
Adam Saxton (01:10:30):
Yes I did. I don't remember. [crosstalk 01:10:33]
Rob Collie (01:10:34):
Don't don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:36):
No, no, no. Wait didn't you guys. I think now remember the second year. Didn't you do the power BI hour?
Adam Saxton (01:10:43):
Yes.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:43):
Did you do that both years or the second years?
Adam Saxton (01:10:45):
No. So the first year Casper did it, I was on the sidelines. I was recording it. Then the second year, then they moved it to the big auditorium and I was part of that,
Thomas LaRock (01:10:54):
Which is awesome. So these guys and didn't you do like a presentation on beer?
Adam Saxton (01:10:58):
No, [crosstalk 01:10:59] what I did there. I could not do in the U.S. Because it involved. I believe it involved Trump at the time. So I wasn't brave enough to do that in the U.S.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:09):
So I Love the power BI hour that they do.
Adam Saxton (01:11:14):
Oh the power hour. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:15):
Power hour. Is that done anywhere else or is that just a German [inaudible 01:11:19]
Adam Saxton (01:11:19):
No, no, no, no. So that, actually has roots outside of that event. So it was done at past summit. It was done at a bunch of different, I think it was done at TechHead. It was done at TechReady inside of Microsoft. It's been done at Pass. We did one. The last one we did at the Atlanta Business Application Summit, Matthew Roach. And I kind of organized that. We were able to get 1300 people in that room. Yeah. For the power hour. It has a following.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Those things are great.
Adam Saxton (01:11:46):
It's amazing.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:46):
And you guys pick a topic.
Adam Saxton (01:11:48):
Preface it with you are not going to learn anything actionable out of this, but we're going to have fun with the technology and do things that you never thought about doing and.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:58):
No it's brilliant. It really is.
Adam Saxton (01:12:00):
But I will say the Germans at the sequel conference, it's a whole other level. Like it is not like in the U.S. It's fairly politically correct? I would say. And in Germany. No, no.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:10):
They're passing out beers.
Adam Saxton (01:12:13):
Passing out beers isn't the thing. But I remember the first year I went, one of them did, like, it was a whole skit on like the Ashley Madison database. And I was like, whoa. okay, here we go.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:23):
I've seen that one too.
Adam Saxton (01:12:24):
Yep. So it was, it was great.
Rob Collie (01:12:27):
Adam, on a previous podcast, he told the story of my parallel story to that. It was tequila. It was Southern California. And the one part of your story that I kind of raised an eyebrow, was that you're like, I'm not sure that I really remember most much of the much of the evening. There're parts of it that are gone. But then, but you happen to know how many shots you had.
Adam Saxton (01:12:46):
Oh, I know exactly how many shots.
Rob Collie (01:12:48):
But no, no you do not.
Adam Saxton (01:12:54):
Fair, point.
Rob Collie (01:12:54):
That is exactly what I was getting at is that the morning after my incident, I woke up and told people the straight face, but guys, I only had two of those margaritas and they looked at each other like, no, oh my God, [crosstalk 01:13:07] he's thing.
Adam Saxton (01:13:08):
That's the thing thing I'll add to that. And this goes back to the whole community thing and family. And some people always ask like, oh man, that's really dangerous. And I do know that there are, you do have to be mindful about that. Especially just be safe in what you're doing. And I was, I was surrounded with people I trust implicitly and I knew so like Casper de young was right there. Tom was right there. Karen Lopez was, these are people. I implicitly trust. I've known them for a long time. And there's very few times I've gone that far. It was to the point like Casper had to walk me back to my hotel room. Like he was there. He had to take my phone away from me as well. That was part of the incident. It involved my wife. And it was bad. Not like bad, bad but it was a [inaudible 01:13:50] that could have been avoided. And have been avoided
Rob Collie (01:13:54):
Have you seen the quote unquote documentary movie about Motley crue? The Dirt?
Adam Saxton (01:13:59):
No. I haven't. Seen that.
Rob Collie (01:14:02):
He wakes up in the morning and he's on tour and he is handcuffed to his bed.
Adam Saxton (01:14:07):
Oh no.
Rob Collie (01:14:09):
Then they replay the events or the past night it ends with his manager handcuffing him to the bed.
Adam Saxton (01:14:15):
No, no [crosstalk 01:14:17] just stop. So at the point of this, what I remember of the evening was Casper taking my phone away from me, responding back to my wife, saying, I'm drunk, I'm going to bed. I will talk to you in the morning. That's what he sent. And then he put the phone back in my pocket that whatever you do, do not text anyone, do not answer any calls until you have woken up and you're sober. And I was like, thank you, sir.
Rob Collie (01:14:41):
You were Still, you were still receiving and absorbing instructions so.
Adam Saxton (01:14:44):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:14:45):
But at least at that point.
Rob Collie (01:14:46):
Well, because at that point I had transitioned to water because that's all they were giving me at that point.
Rob Collie (01:14:53):
You had good minders.
Adam Saxton (01:14:54):
Yes. Like I Said, those are people I trust and they were looking out and we were having a good time.
Rob Collie (01:14:59):
And mostly people were just taking pictures of me.
Adam Saxton (01:15:02):
Oh, there is a picture. In fact, the only way I can find this picture, it's in my email, but I have to search for, it's only the subject of the email. It was sent by Casper to Patrick and then Patrick forwarded it to me "its fucked up". And it's a picture of me kind of like strown out and yeah, that's the only way I can find that picture. I
Rob Collie (01:15:25):
I Missed me some Casper. We're going to have, to have him on the show.
Adam Saxton (01:15:30):
Casper's like my brother also, man, we've had adventures together. And I actually, it's interesting because the folks on my team were kind of all over the place. Good portion of them are in Redmond. But I there's a point like with all the traveling and everything, I would tell people that Casper is the person on the team that I physically see the most. Which is interesting because I would go to Europe a bunch. I go to Europe and he's at the things that I'm at in Europe, but also he's at the items in the U.S. As well. And so I'm seeing him on both ends. Whereas the folks in the U.S. I only see at some of the U.S. Things, not all of the U.S. Things. So it just got to the point where I saw him more than I saw Patrick face to face.
Rob Collie (01:16:14):
It's a weird new reality. Like us moving around the country, sort of like just sort of being where the kids are until they're done with high school, and being approaching late forties I now have more friends in other countries than I do in my own city. And it's just like, this is not how it's supposed to be.
Adam Saxton (01:16:32):
I tell that to folks too. Like when I'm at, when I was at past summit or ignite or anything like that, I'm like the Europe folks. I see them more than I see anyone else just because I'm going to both sides of it. We've had a lot of fun. I would say that the folks in Europe, I would argue that I have little bit more fun over there than I do in the U.S. Just because it's really open there. Right? Like they just enjoy themselves. It's a work hard, play, hard mentality over there of like they're very focused when we need to be serious, but they can actually enjoy themselves at the evening and, and whatnot. And so it's always fun to hang out with them and also being in Europe too, just getting new experiences of life and one pro tip I'll give folks if they do travel for conferences, whenever we get to do that again is try to work in family hacks into those trips.
Adam Saxton (01:17:21):
Right. So there're times like when I've been to SQL Bits or SQL conference or whatnot, where I brought my family with me and so my daughters and they were older when we did this was a couple years ago. So they actively remember it. We went to London when SQL Bits was in London and I brought my wife and kids. Came out two days before, did some sight seeing. And then they spent during the conference, my wife spent a day or two just sight seeing London with my kids because I'd already seen it from a different trip. And so they've been to London, they've been to Paris, they've seen Stonehenge. So they've gotten to experience some of the culture outside of the U.S. And can relate to some of that. And it's very different from the U.S. and we've done that too when we've gone to Orlando for some things. So going to like universal and Disney with the kids as part of the work trip, bringing them with me as well. So working that in,
Rob Collie (01:18:13):
Exposing them to that Orlando exotic culture
Adam Saxton (01:18:16):
Absolutely. So the reason I brought them. The second time I went was because the first time I went and I went to the Harry Potter stuff and daughter loved Harry Potter. And so I'm just sending her pictures of me like posing and the dragons right behind me. And she's like, you're Awful.
Rob Collie (01:18:33):
Yeah. You learned your lesson, didn't you? I don't think I've done as well at that as I could have, but it is good advice.
Adam Saxton (01:18:40):
I mean, I could have done better as well, but I've tried to because my wife, the number one thing is my wife. Like she's just wants to travel. That's her thing. So once I started traveling to Europe and it was always interesting to, I never thought I'd get to travel outside of the U.S. And when I finally got around to doing it, I found that how easy it was and this really surprised me as well, because the way I hacked traveling to Europe because Microsoft wouldn't pay for it. And so I worked in was I would do these pre-con sessions, a full day thing. And because I was a Microsoft employee, they couldn't actually pay me to do the pre-con. And so the arrangement we did was look, pay for hotel and flight I'll cover food and all that. That's fine.
Adam Saxton (01:19:20):
And so that's how I got to go to a lot of this Europe doing, not since I've been on the power BI CAT team they'll that just gets paid for. But before that I would make those arrangements. And it was interesting that the Europe crowds, even if it was a smaller event, they would do it. Whereas, and I tried making that arrangement with some folks in the U.S. For some SQL Saturdays or things of that nature and they wouldn't do it. And I'm like, it's way cheaper. Like I don't understand.
Rob Collie (01:19:48):
Yeah. Now it is interesting. Either Europe puts more value on these events or there's something oddly cool about having an American come over, which will be harder to understand.
Adam Saxton (01:19:58):
Some Of that is because from an international perspective, they're like, oh it's really good if we can get Americans to, or especially like Microsoft employees or folks like that, they elevate the event apparently at some stages. So
Rob Collie (01:20:12):
I wonder if post COVID they'll have the same attitude. they'll be like, do we really want to bring an American over here?
Adam Saxton (01:20:17):
Yeah, I know. Yeah. Oh that's true.
Rob Collie (01:20:18):
I Don't know. Maybe it's time for us to go solo.
Adam Saxton (01:20:24):
Yeah. So it's been interesting and just the experiences that I've had on that front have been, and the friends that I've made by doing that has been amazing.
Rob Collie (01:20:37):
So back to power BI for a moment.
Adam Saxton (01:20:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:20:39):
How much opportunity do you find for doing like end to end project work? Do you ever get A chance to do something like that?
Adam Saxton (01:20:44):
No. No I don't. And I would say this is something that is a gap on my side or just something I don't get exposed to I'm not a consultant. Right. So I don't do those type of projects. I'm very focused on the power BI side. I do find ways to interact with some of the data components, but the re [inaudible 01:21:03]
Adam Saxton (01:21:03):
I do find ways to interact with some of the data components, but the real true end to end, I don't really get into that much. I try and find opportunities, especially if it's a Microsoft technology like Azure Synapse Analytics as news, or we're trying to do stuff there. But even Data bricks, I have some high knowledge of it, but at that point, I'm like, look, we got to get someone from that side to help with it, and Power BI.
Rob Collie (01:21:27):
And so much of a project is the long tail of all the little details.
Adam Saxton (01:21:31):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:21:31):
And so, probably it wouldn't require the metaphor you used earlier, the ninjas who parachute in.
Adam Saxton (01:21:38):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:21:38):
And this is like a real early 1980s low budget film.
Adam Saxton (01:21:42):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:21:43):
It's like, we're going to send you to Paratrooper school and Ninja school.
Adam Saxton (01:21:46):
Yes. And so our team, even when I have to set expectations with folks too, it's like we are not consultants. We do not do the implementation. It's more of an advising consent type role.
Rob Collie (01:21:59):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Adam Saxton (01:21:59):
So we will evaluate what you're doing, we'll make recommendations based on best practices and then in some cases we'll get into the weeds a little bit. Some of that's just, do I have bandwidth to do that? And also, is it really interesting and is it really going to help unblock something. Specifically around model design and things of that nature, but I still won't do implementation. So I may come up with a sample or something to illustrate something but past that I'm like, either you have to do that as a company or you have to engage a partner or MCS or something of that nature.
Rob Collie (01:22:31):
That makes sense. I bet that they're constantly trying to creep that line.
Adam Saxton (01:22:36):
Everyone does. They try and bamboozle me.
Rob Collie (01:22:39):
Yeah. But if you were going to write this formula.
Adam Saxton (01:22:43):
Yes. But it'll be really quick. It would really help us.
Rob Collie (01:22:47):
Yeah. Wait a second. You're the client. I'm...Okay.
Adam Saxton (01:22:53):
Yes. And of course, I'm not even Support. So with Support, there's cost associated with that. Whether you're doing professional support and you're actually paying for it, or you're on the premier side where you have a premier contract that has certain hours that you've costed. And, or an MCS engagement where there's cost in that too. When it comes to the CAT team, there's no cost. We're just engaged. There's no billing that happens there. It's a quote on quote free for them to get anything out of us that they can.
Rob Collie (01:23:22):
Yeah, totally.
Adam Saxton (01:23:23):
They want to try and get like, can you come on site and help us? And I'm like, man, no. Sometimes I will, but still I won't do implementation. Sometimes I've gone on site for customers where we'll do an architectural review, where it's like a one or two day thing with a bunch of different folks from different tech areas and we'll do that type of effort.
Rob Collie (01:23:43):
And I think one of the things that I've really, my whole history over the last 10 years with this stuff. Whether as a solo individual or with the company that we've been growing, the exposure to so many different industries, so many different problems. The velocity at which we move our projects, we don't turn a project into a multiyear affair. We get through those things as fast as possible, so that necessarily ups the pace on how much we're exposed to.
Adam Saxton (01:24:13):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:24:13):
We still need to be utilized. We still need to be doing work.
Adam Saxton (01:24:16):
And that's the other beauty of my job too. When I was in Support, we had to worry about utilization as well. I had to log that time, so that's where that struggle was is, okay, how much time do I spend playing around with something versus actually working a case and logging the hours. Whereas on the CAT side, I'm like, I don't have that. I just do what I need to do to get it done, which is amazing. Which is part of why it's a dream job, right?
Rob Collie (01:24:41):
Yes.
Adam Saxton (01:24:42):
I'm like, we've got budget, we've got the tools around the bleeding edge. I've got complete access to the engineering teams.
Rob Collie (01:24:47):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Adam Saxton (01:24:48):
Our whole mission is to just help unblock people with the technology, whatever we need to do.
Rob Collie (01:24:53):
Almost all the upsides, very few of the downsides. Even as you were describing, I'm sitting going, this is ideal, right? I could ask the question, do you get to do full implementation? But there's also the question of, do you have to?
Adam Saxton (01:25:08):
Yeah, I don't have to. And honestly, that's frowned upon because that's not a good use of our time in terms of what we're trying to do.
Rob Collie (01:25:15):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:25:15):
Now the other thing I'll say with that though, is people are like, I want to get on. How do I get on that team? I'm like, if you look at the people on the team, this is literally the A-team. It's Casper De Young, it's myself, it's Matthew Roach. It's Patrick, it's Phil Seamark. It's a lot of folks that are top tier at what we do. It's a very work hard, play hard mentality. Our manager, Mark Ragera, he is amazing at hiring and finding people that fit that bill, that are very low maintenance. He's not a micromanager either. So he is like, look, you need to get things done. Let me know how I can unblock you, pass that. Go do your job.
Rob Collie (01:25:54):
Yeah. I had a chance to talk to Mark really for the first time because he kind of rose to prominence within Microsoft as a voice for this stuff after I'd left. I was very impressed. I was very impressed with Mark.
Adam Saxton (01:26:05):
Yeah, he's amazing.
Rob Collie (01:26:07):
Yeah. We should also have him on the show.
Adam Saxton (01:26:09):
That would be fun. And he'll freely admit he's not the deep technical guy. He's more on the business side. And he came from the finance world also. He gets all of it. His whole thing is he's hiring people and surrounding himself by the technical rock stars, so to speak. He helps shield us from the junk.
Rob Collie (01:26:28):
That's great. That's kind of where I've found myself. The fact that I have somewhat of a technical history with this stuff is almost a historical accident at this point.
Adam Saxton (01:26:37):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:26:37):
I'm much more about the dynamics of the market and, and understanding and just sort of like what it does for the industry than I am about the tax formulas anymore.
Adam Saxton (01:26:48):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:26:49):
I still dabble.
Adam Saxton (01:26:50):
Yeah, there's obviously some passion there. Right?
Rob Collie (01:26:53):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Adam Saxton (01:26:53):
So it's like you enjoy it.
Rob Collie (01:26:55):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:26:55):
You don't want to not do it at all. But at the same time, especially in your role of the company, it's like, look, you've got to pay attention to other things too.
Rob Collie (01:27:04):
We have a lot of reports. We have a pretty sophisticated data model now for our digital advertising and the whole marketing side of the house. And that's not a hundred percent me. I have help, but I'm kind of the ring leader of that process.
Adam Saxton (01:27:17):
One thing we struggle with, that Patrick and I have been struggling with, especially being on the CAT team, it's this balance between the CAT team and the Guy in a Cube stuff, because they're dynamically opposed to each other. In stance of on the CAT side, we're getting deep into the weeds of the technology. This is the super geeky stuff model optimization, large scale data, which when you look at it from an overall usage of Power BI, when we look at massive data, large model type, that's a small fraction of the usage of the technology. A Lot of it it's smaller businesses.
Adam Saxton (01:27:52):
And even at large enterprise companies, there's a lot of folks that are doing stuff that I wouldn't consider large data. They're doing smaller operation type stuff specific to that business vertical or that team need. So we're in the nitty gritty of the largest stuff that excites both Patrick and I. We love digging into that and understanding how do we optimize this more even at the engine perspective, whereas on the Guy in a Cube side, I'm the destroyer of video ideas for Patrick, because he'll be like, look this cool thing I did in tabular editor and I'm doing this scripting thing, this is going to be a great video. I'm like, nobody's going to watch that dude. Nobody cares.
Adam Saxton (01:28:29):
So on the Guy in a Cube side, it's more of the stuff that gets traction on that end is more of the intro and more of definitely not the deep technical side of it because what we're focusing on in our day job that it's all deep technical, but that doesn't translate to Guy in a Cube. And so Patrick is struggling with that way more than I am where he's like, you need to help me to figure out some video ideas that are going to actually be worth doing on the Guy in a Cube side because all I've got is this deep technical and that's not working over there. And I've told him, I was like, if you want to do one video a month on that, go for it. That's fine. But it can't be every week because our views will suffer.
Rob Collie (01:29:10):
Talking about views. I would assume that views and subscribers are always trending up.
Adam Saxton (01:29:15):
No, not after being off for two weeks and not doing anything. It's actually going to a nose dive. But, yeah. In general, yes, it curves up.
Rob Collie (01:29:22):
Taking a, a little breather there.
Adam Saxton (01:29:24):
Yeah, it hurt.
Rob Collie (01:29:26):
Boy, why would you be so lazy?
Adam Saxton (01:29:28):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:29:29):
And like two whole weeks.
Adam Saxton (01:29:31):
Two weeks. And then basically slashed our numbers in half.
Rob Collie (01:29:35):
That's the temporary.
Adam Saxton (01:29:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:29:37):
But what about COVID in general? That the slope of the curve change at all with COVID, people sitting at home, more time on their hands?
Adam Saxton (01:29:45):
I don't know that COVID had really anything to do with it. I'm sure it did at some level, but the thing I've found over the journey is the numbers themselves, the subscribers is everything it was an exponential growth. It took me almost a year and a half to hit a thousand subscribers.
Rob Collie (01:30:01):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Adam Saxton (01:30:02):
And then it took me six months to get to 5,000. It was just like, it was always faster than next level.
Rob Collie (01:30:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:30:08):
And so we hit 100,000 in April of 2020. April of 2020 is when we hit 100,000. And we hit 150,000, December 14th. We hit 150,000. So I'm like, it was that much of a spread. Whereas it took me almost five years to get to 100,000 and then it took what? Another from April to December to get to 150,000.
Rob Collie (01:30:37):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:30:38):
And then we're poised to hit 200,000, maybe a little over a year after hitting 100,000.
Rob Collie (01:30:43):
That's crazy.
Adam Saxton (01:30:44):
And it's insane.
Rob Collie (01:30:45):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:30:46):
But it goes to consistency and the work and everything. So it definitely does not come overnight. And everyone's start wanting to start... There's lot of... One thing I will say in COVID is YouTube has been, especially in the power BI niche, has been flooded with new people starting channels and doing videos. That's one thing that has changed is it's gotten diluted. When I first started doing Guy in a Cube there was no one doing videos on.
Adam Saxton (01:31:13):
Actually in general, even in the text base, from what I saw and I may be wrong, but it looked like there was just very little going on YouTube in general. A lot of it was focused on blogging and things of that nature. No one was doing video. Some people were, but not seriously. Now it's like everybody's doing it.
Rob Collie (01:31:32):
Dilution is an ongoing thing.
Adam Saxton (01:31:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:31:35):
For a long time there I was the all only person grinding.
Adam Saxton (01:31:38):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:31:39):
I had that luxury. No one else was grinding in competition.
Adam Saxton (01:31:43):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (01:31:43):
But, yeah. Now there's obviously huge differences in quality and level of engagement and all of that. Not all are created equal, but yeah. It's like who hasn't started a Power BI YouTube channel.
Adam Saxton (01:31:57):
And Patrick comments on this also. And I tell him to just ignore it, because it's going to happen of where you see some videos or stuff that people are doing and they're imitating what we're doing on the Guy in a Cube side, they're imitating what others are doing as well. And I was there. When I first started doing YouTube, you go after, okay, what caught your eye? And you're looking at other people and you're trying to figure out your voice when you're early on.
Adam Saxton (01:32:20):
I get it. People are trying to do that. It doesn't necessarily bother me. It bothers Patrick a lot, but I'm like, we got to do our thing and people are going to come up to our level or they're going to try to. And it's more than just production quality. You've got to have the entertainment factor. You got to have the key chemistry, the personality. I would say that's weighted way more than the production quality. Who cares? As long as your audio's okay, who cares about the rest of that? It doesn't matter.
Adam Saxton (01:32:47):
Audio is important, because if you can't stand listening to it, you're going to abandon that really quick.
Rob Collie (01:32:51):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Adam Saxton (01:32:52):
But the video, use your cell phone. I don't care. Use a webcam. It doesn't matter. Don't use a web. A lot of people just do screen capture. The thing that Patrick and I have is the chemistry between us and the balance that we bring to each other. We understand what each other's thinking. We're on the very same wavelength. We've been doing it for years now so it's the content quality. It's the value. It's understanding that. That's what they have to rise up to. And then we have to think about, okay, we got to do something that separates us now. What's the next thing we can do to separate it.
Adam Saxton (01:33:24):
And me getting the video editor was part of that because most people aren't doing that. And so the production quality is a lot higher. It does add value to what we're doing but we got to maintain the content quality as well.
Rob Collie (01:33:36):
I have a couple other quick questions here that are more on the technical front.
Adam Saxton (01:33:40):
All right.
Rob Collie (01:33:40):
Or about the tools with enterprise customers, what are for like large Power BI customers struggling with the most these days? What are the things that you're most commonly either asked to help with? Maybe on the technical level, but maybe also on that kind of like social engineering level. Are there any common threads there or is it pretty much every single instance is different?
Adam Saxton (01:34:03):
There's differences in each approach. The theme is I've already said it earlier that sometimes we feel like a broken record that we're always having to do model optimization. It's not...And I tell people, even in press presentations I do. I'm like nine times out of 10. Your issue is the model. When it comes to performance, it's because of the model. And not because necessarily the amount of data you have, but just the structure of the data and the fact that either the one table with all the columns or you're doing just some funky table stuff.
Adam Saxton (01:34:32):
You're not sticking to just a [inaudible 01:34:34], right? Maybe you've got some transactional database and you just pulled all of it in the way it was. And you've gone to the ninth normal form and I'm like, all right, this is not going to perform. The other thing that's interesting and because of the customers we work with, we're working with larger sets of data. And usually when we go to do presentations on performance and we're giving best practices and stuff and someone will raise their hand and be like, I'm not doing any of that and my stuff is fine. I'm like, sure.
Adam Saxton (01:35:06):
If you're doing like a million rows of data, you're never going to hit. I shouldn't say never, but you're not going to be as impacted on this. When you start getting to scale though, this becomes a massive problem. Now that being said, though, I've had some models where they had the one table and 300, some odd columns, they had about 8 million rows in the data. And this thing was just slow. It was because they didn't break out the dimensions.
Adam Saxton (01:35:29):
They're trying to do a slicer with six unique values that was coming off of an 8 million row table. And I'm like, all right, come on, let's get a little real here. So typically it's either, it comes down to one of two things, either one, it's the model that needs to be optimized or two, it's that customer that wants to slap 120 visuals on the canvas and wonders why. And all of the docs, if you look at performance analyzer, all of the docs is like sub-second, like 30 milliseconds. It's fast. It's not your model.
Adam Saxton (01:35:58):
It's the number of visuals that you had. And you're just trying to create a page native report in a Power BI report. And you don't understand the product and the tool that will help you be successful in what you're trying tell from a data perspective. In general, I would say the common theme at almost every customer is not taking the time to understand the story that you want to tell with your data and then figuring out how to do that both from a model structure, as well as your report structure, to communicate that story in an effective way. That's the theme. And nobody wants to. And part of it is it takes time to do that and everyone just we're all under deadlines. I got to get this out by next Friday so I'm just going to do what I can to throw it out the door. And then you know how it goes. It hits the fan and then they're calling Support. They're calling the CAT team like, Hey, we need to fix this.
Rob Collie (01:36:49):
I think this comes back to like, again, just the overwhelming past success of SQL and of things like reporting services. And I just over and over again, I see large IT departments just look at Power BI and go, look, the new reporting services.
Adam Saxton (01:37:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:37:04):
And I'm like, no.
Adam Saxton (01:37:06):
I want a Power BI report. And I want to just have this giant table with a bunch of columns and millions of rows. Wait, why isn't this performing? I'm like, that's not, we don't use Power BI for that.
Rob Collie (01:37:17):
Even if it was performing, it's like, so missing the most valuable things that you can do with these tools, that mindset precludes you from ever discovering them.
Adam Saxton (01:37:27):
And it's like the old, when I was in Support for reporting services where they're like, we've got this 300 page report that we got to print out. And I'm like, do they ever really read that?
Rob Collie (01:37:35):
No.
Adam Saxton (01:37:36):
They look at the first page and that's it. Nobody looks at that
Rob Collie (01:37:39):
And then they export it to Excel.
Adam Saxton (01:37:41):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:37:41):
Believe it.
Adam Saxton (01:37:43):
And they complain because the color in Excel didn't match the color in the table in reporting services because it doesn't align to the color palette of that was a server down issue.
Rob Collie (01:37:54):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:37:55):
That was not the right blue.
Rob Collie (01:37:56):
One of them uses CMYK color scheme, right?
Adam Saxton (01:38:00):
Yes. And Excel didn't use the same color palette. And so it looked purple when it was blue in their report. Can we make it bluer?
Rob Collie (01:38:07):
Purple? You're going to get purple and you're going to like it.
Adam Saxton (01:38:09):
Yes. That's just the people they need to take time and really understand. And it is just that sometimes they just don't get that time to do it or the business isn't helping them to grow in that area either.
Rob Collie (01:38:24):
All right, here we go. Last technical question.
Adam Saxton (01:38:26):
All right.
Rob Collie (01:38:26):
Not even really technical.
Adam Saxton (01:38:27):
Yeah, sure.
Rob Collie (01:38:28):
When the dust settles, what do you think the number one sort of impact or usage case is going to be for composite models? I debated asking this as composite models, high end niche feature or guardrail to guardrail world beater. This is more nuanced.
Adam Saxton (01:38:44):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:38:44):
It's where is it going to be most impactful?
Adam Saxton (01:38:46):
Marco Russa has called it the holy grail of BI. I will be honest. It scares me going back to what I said, people aren't taking the time to structure their data and understand the story that they want to tell. We've got this model out there, this big model, that's maybe the finance model and I've got my Excel spreadsheet. I want to bring them right next to it. And augment it little bit. That part I'm fine with. That doesn't necessarily scare me.
Adam Saxton (01:39:11):
But now I've got this giant finance model. I've got this giant HR model, and now I want to bring in an Excel spreadsheet and I want to do direct query to my SQL server to bring in some other data as well. And that's where I'm starting to wonder. First off, it's the direct query over the live Power BI data set, which is really what we're talking about here is, it's enabling but I would also say it's very new to the point where I don't necessarily have best practices for it yet to understand what those performance implications are.
Adam Saxton (01:39:41):
So the thing I'm telling people is yes, it is a very cool feature. It does enable some great things. Walk, do not run. Be mindful about what you're doing and what you're connecting to and how you're trying to relate that data. And the thing I just tell customers in general, I'm like, you've got to have a clean model. If you don't, Power BI is just one of those things where if your model is not clean, it's going to show you your ugly baby really fast. And that's when you start getting frustration, things aren't going to work very well. And you start calling us and complaining and I'm like, look, it's not a good data model.
Adam Saxton (01:40:18):
We've got all this stuff. And every time we have this conversation, I'm like, it's just not... One customer I wrote an eight-page writeup of recommendations for why your model, why you have an ugly baby. I should have titled the Word doc that way, but I was more professional with it. That was in May and I'm still arguing with them over it today. And I'm like, why do you even call me? I don't even understand that. But yes, I understand you think your people are really good and I'm sure they have amazing skills in certain areas. But I'm telling you, this is how the product works. And these are the changes you need to make for this to be performant and then combine that with this composite model feature of direct query over Power BI data sets. And you're just amplifying the problem.
Adam Saxton (01:41:01):
I think that's the biggest concern. And then the key is going to be is how changes could be made with that technology to make it more forgiving in those scenarios and making it smarter, to be able to optimize on the fly to accommodate that. That's really going to be the key and it's too early to even know. It's public preview. People are just getting their hands on it. We don't necessarily know what the best practices are yet. It's new. I don't have a magic answer for you on that one.
Rob Collie (01:41:28):
I appreciate that. I didn't know what you were going to say. That's why I asked the question, but at the same time, I'm like I can recognize the wisdom and the authenticity of what you just said. That is probably the only right answer.
Adam Saxton (01:41:40):
Yeah. It's not rocket science. It's garbage in, garbage out. It's the old saying, right? it's if you're not taking that time to really make it pristine and I've only come across a few models that I would even say or like that.
Rob Collie (01:41:52):
Pristine is tough.
Adam Saxton (01:41:54):
Yes. They do exist.
Rob Collie (01:41:56):
Even when you really know what you're doing, the hard realities of life drive you in some interesting directions.
Adam Saxton (01:42:02):
One thing you mentioned before though, talking about the business. The business persona, that person being the person that's modeling that more, the places where I've seen those pristine models is they understand the business.
Rob Collie (01:42:14):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:42:15):
And they understand like I don't need all this other garbage, right?
Rob Collie (01:42:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Adam Saxton (01:42:18):
This is the problem I'm trying to answer. This is how I can do it. And this is how I can be smarter about it maybe with some pre aggregations or summarizing over here and not needing the actual detail row. Or if I do need those detail rows, there are ways we can handle that to make that more, I don't need it right up front. That's where I've seen success.
Rob Collie (01:42:37):
Yeah. Those are tremendous amount of over-engineering in the IT driven mindset.
Adam Saxton (01:42:42):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:42:43):
I have a fight starter that I can use in certain situations like in a past conference or something like that. I can start a fight in a conference really quickly by saying, 90% of slowly changing dimensions implemented in the world were unnecessary.
Adam Saxton (01:42:56):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:42:57):
It's like, how do you data warehouse? I'm like, see.
Adam Saxton (01:43:01):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:43:02):
We talk about faucets over plumbing. you can build plumbing all day long if you never have to worry about faucets and pipes running everywhere that no one ever needs a drink.
Adam Saxton (01:43:12):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:43:13):
Yeah. I agree. The business is capable again with the right people, these unicorns.
Adam Saxton (01:43:19):
I fully believe IT could do it too, if they actively really worked with the business to understand that before they just try and go engineer it. I'm coming from that IT central admin type persona of where I just want to start building it, right?
Rob Collie (01:43:32):
Yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:43:32):
Let's just get it done and then you put that out there and it's not what they need, and or it just doesn't perform.
Rob Collie (01:43:38):
I actually I'm going to politely disagree. I don't think that IT could ever pull it off. But not for the reasons that you might suspect. It's just the fact that there's not enough time. There's just not enough IT people. There's plenty of business people.
Adam Saxton (01:43:51):
No, I would agree with that.
Rob Collie (01:43:52):
Just the ratio alone is unfair.
Adam Saxton (01:43:55):
I think that's why we're seeing a shift also when we talk about the self-service versus the central IT. It's one thing Mark Ragera likes to talk about is central at the core, but soft on the outside. Enable the self-service. Enable those business folks to get what they need to be done because they've got the numbers. They can do it. And it's hard for central IT groups to find that balance or to find a way to even enable that where people aren't just going to go rogue and get the data that they need to get the job done.
Rob Collie (01:44:26):
Yeah, agreed. I think a top down driven one version of the truth is inflicted on the business.
Adam Saxton (01:44:34):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:44:35):
And it doesn't work. However, a bottom up sort of meritocracy, you find the one that actually works the best and then you make it. You bless it at that point, right?
Adam Saxton (01:44:45):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:44:45):
That is awesome.
Adam Saxton (01:44:47):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:44:48):
I think there's probably still, in my opinion, too much of the mindset of we're going to top down it.
Adam Saxton (01:44:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Because that's the old school, right?
Rob Collie (01:44:58):
It is.
Adam Saxton (01:44:58):
That's how it's always been done.
Rob Collie (01:44:59):
It is, yeah.
Adam Saxton (01:44:59):
And the thing I've seen in organizations is that culture shift is hard and trying to get people to agree to it and, or move it. And I love some of the customers I work with because they have people there that are very forward thinking and like, yes, we want to change. We want to shift. We want to do it this way. We know we've always done it this way. Let's move over here and try it a different way. And those are really fun to work with. The ones where you've got that person in and they're like, no, we can't do that. We can't open this up to everyone. That's insane. I'm like, okay, it's not going to be successful.
Rob Collie (01:45:40):
Did you ever hear what Max Planck said about scientific revolutions?
Adam Saxton (01:45:44):
I did not.
Rob Collie (01:45:44):
It's chilling and it's awesome. He said, there's all this talk about the scientific method and the scientific community. It's this meritocracy of ideas and it's proof driven and all of that. And that's how science moves forward, is by constantly testing itself. He said, no, it's not what actually happens at all. What happens is, is that that new ideas do emerge. They are better, but they do not gain traction at all until the old school dies. It requires that clean slate.
Adam Saxton (01:46:15):
The change of regime, yes.
Rob Collie (01:46:18):
And it's just so cynical and yet you can recognize it.
Adam Saxton (01:46:22):
And I've seen that. Even on different organizations I've worked with and even in Microsoft, you get some of the leadership changes and that's when things happen.
Rob Collie (01:46:31):
People don't need to die. They just need to leave.
Adam Saxton (01:46:33):
No.
Rob Collie (01:46:33):
They need to retire or something.
Adam Saxton (01:46:34):
I know.
Rob Collie (01:46:35):
It does require some degree. And even that person who leaves and goes somewhere else, oftentimes they find themselves with a fresh perspective.
Adam Saxton (01:46:43):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:46:43):
And they're no longer trapped by their former reputation.
Adam Saxton (01:46:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:46:47):
But as long as they stayed there, the change that was required, wasn't going to happen.
Adam Saxton (01:46:53):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:46:54):
No matter how much evidence.
Adam Saxton (01:46:56):
Yes, I've seen that time and time again.
Rob Collie (01:46:59):
Man, this has been a blast.
Adam Saxton (01:47:01):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:47:01):
In hindsight, I'm sad we waited this long to do it.
Adam Saxton (01:47:03):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:47:05):
I really appreciate you taking the time. I know all you have is two jobs now.
Adam Saxton (01:47:09):
I only have two jobs, yeah. But I've got plenty of time.
Rob Collie (01:47:11):
Even if we didn't put the podcast live, it was worth it.
Adam Saxton (01:47:14):
I look forward to the day where we can just go get a beer and hang out.
Thomas LaRock. (01:47:17):
Or some Yager
Rob Collie (01:47:18):
Yager, that's that's where it gets fun.
Rob Collie (01:47:21):
Dude, so much fun. Thank you so much.
Rob Collie (01:47:23):
Yeah, no worries.
Rob Collie (01:47:24):
Bye, Adam.
Matt Selig wears many hats at SerVaas Labs, maker of Bar Keepers Friend (BKF). When facing pain points to running more efficiently before COVID struck, Matt knew how he wanted the BKF data to look, but he wasn't sure how to get there. Enter his relationship with P3 that began in February 2020. Matt kept the in-demand cleaning product of a post-COVID world top of mind and easily accessible with the help of customized and integrated dashboards to read real-time data for better business decisions. Read the BKF/P3 Case Study! Episode Timeline: * 3:55 - The fascinating history of Bar Keepers Friend and founder Beurt SerVaas * 5:50 - People's excited reactions to BKF are similar to people's excited reactions to Power BI * 9:50 - Matt's many hats that he wears - From forklift driver to Executive Vice President, from curating and caretaking the Bar Keepers Friend Museum to BI Director- he does it all! * 13:40 - Matt's history with Excel and how new tech and software was (and still sometimes is) shunned by the C-Suite * 21:45 - A frustrating Pain Point that led Matt to the Power BI and P3 path, and the infamous Cocktail Napkin Dashboard Sketch * 26:35 - Discovering Power BI was like discovering fire, and the ever-present pushback by the status quo * 29:20 - The sociological aspect of large and small corporations, and The Dunbar Number-the rule of how many people one can maintain cognitive relationships with effectively * 32:45 - The concept of one version of the truth is essential in answering vital business questions * 39:30 - Matt Selig could be the Nostradamus of the modern age. He implemented Power BI at SerVaas Labs in February 2020, and it was truly the better way in the post-COVID world. He also managed to avoid some predatory "huckster" consultants before he partnered with P3 * 45:05 - Rob's crucial BI project timeline advice for 2021, Matt the BI and Power Platform sponge, and how SerVaas Labs and P3 work together to create amazing reports * 55:50 - A peek inside of what's coming for SerVaas Labs and Bar Keeper's Friend in 2021 is Enterprise level stuff
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome, friends. For our first podcast of 2021, we welcome Matt Selig, Chief Financial Officer at SerVaas Labs, AKA Bar Keepers Friend. By now, you know that we don't explicitly call this a Power BI Podcast. Most of our guests absolutely are users of Power BI. And while that's 100% true for Matt, I think his journey highlights a handful of themes, really important themes that we might not have punched quite as cleanly as we need to in the past. And one of those themes is escaping the status quo.
Rob Collie (00:00:40):
Oftentimes when people ask me, "Who are your competitors, Rob?" I'll usually give them an answer that they don't quite expect. There's other consulting companies out there that we compete with. There are other software products out there that compete with the Microsoft products that we use. But really the number one competitor is people just sticking with the status quo of what they have, people accepting the way that they've done it forever. And you'll hear in the conversation just how much Matt agonized with exactly this problem for years, and also how much better things got when he finally did decide to truly break away from the status quo.
Rob Collie (00:01:17):
Another really important theme that I think comes out in this conversation is you do not need massive budgets. You don't need a massive team anymore to be effective at BI. Even though Bar Keepers Friend is a national and really internationally recognized brand, they're not like a Fortune 500 enterprise sort of outfit. They're a relatively lean mid-size company. And like a lot of us, you'll see that Matt has historically and continues to wear many, many, many more than one hat in his job. And they have seen some truly enormous benefits from their adoption of Power BI at their company.
Rob Collie (00:01:54):
The last theme is the timelines. Those enormous benefits that they've been realizing have been happening at break that pace. You don't need large teams and you don't need long timelines and huge budgets anymore. You can get those wins. When you set your mind to breaking away from that status quo, the pace at which you can move and the quality of the results you get can really, really surprise you. I know I have found Matt's story to be inspiring and encouraging, and I hope you will as well. So let's get into it.
Announcer (00:02:30):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:02:34):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:02:50):
Welcome to the show, Matt Selig of Bar Keepers Friends/SerVaas Labs. How are you doing today, Matt?
Matt Selig (00:02:57):
I'm doing great.
Rob Collie (00:02:58):
Good, good, good. Glad you're here. We got a lot of things to talk about so let's get into it. Let's start with the boring professional stuff first. So you're CFO at SerVaas Labs.
Matt Selig (00:03:09):
Yeah. I've been the CFO here for a little over 20 years.
Rob Collie (00:03:13):
That's a long... People don't stay in jobs that long anymore. That's an outlier, isn't it?
Matt Selig (00:03:17):
Yeah, definitely, but that's typical here. We'd have at least five people who have been here longer than 40 years.
Rob Collie (00:03:24):
Wow.
Matt Selig (00:03:25):
And when we hire people, I like to say, "What's our 20-year plan for this person? I don't want them to just come work for a week or a year."
Rob Collie (00:03:33):
Wow. "What's our 20-year plan?" We tend to think in terms of like, "What are we going to do with this new person in the first three months?"
Matt Selig (00:03:42):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:42):
That's our horizon. Not because we're expecting to be rid of them in three months. That is a very different mindset. I like it. So is it fair to say that SerVaas Labs is the owner of the Bar Keepers Friend product and brand, or is the manufacturer? How do you describe that?
Matt Selig (00:03:58):
Beurt SerVaas was the person who founded the company in 1957. He was a OSS agent in World War II. He fought in China against the Japanese. And then after World War II, he fought against the communists until about 1953. He bought the brand in 1957 when they were selling about $5,000 a year with the Bar Keepers Friend, because his grandmother used a Bar Keepers Friend and he had a small plating shop. And people would say, "What are you used to clean the stuff you're doing with the silver plating for us, for her?" And he'd say, "My grandmother used Bar Keepers Friend." He found out the guy that owned it at that time wanted to sell it, so he bought the company.
Rob Collie (00:04:40):
So he waged war against the Japanese. Then he waged war against the communist. And then he turned his sights to varnish. "Yeah, we're going to put an end to grime."
Matt Selig (00:04:52):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:04:55):
So when we talk about Bar Keepers Friend, what is the core product?
Matt Selig (00:04:58):
When I got here in 1999, about 80% of the core product was the original product that was invented in 1882, the powdered cleanser that had an abrasive, a soap, and oxalic acid in it and not much more. That had been invented in 1882. It was basically unchanged for the next almost 120 years. And they had a couple small other little product lines that didn't amount too much, but I think now the powder's about 50% of our sales because we've added new products and grown those.
Rob Collie (00:05:33):
Diversified. Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:05:35):
That's right. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:36):
When we first met, you had registered for one of our classes under the SerVaas Labs name.
Matt Selig (00:05:43):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:05:44):
You don't register as being from Bar Keepers Friend, you know?
Matt Selig (00:05:47):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:05:48):
But we started talking about it. I didn't really even know that Bar Keepers Friend existed, but then I came home and asked my wife if she knows about it. And we have a can. We had a can. We already had one in the house, you know?
Matt Selig (00:06:00):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:06:00):
It was already... We were equipped.
Matt Selig (00:06:02):
A good abbreviation for Bar Keepers Friend is BKF. If you're an insider, that's what you know how to call it.
Rob Collie (00:06:08):
Yeah. So I came home. I discovered that we had a can of BKF. And then I pulled the team at P3. And half the team not only knew about it, their first response was, "Oh my God, that stuff's awesome." Not, "Yeah, I know about it and I use it," which is sort of the expectation you would have for a cleaning product, right? But you don't expect that kind of emotional positive reaction about a cleaning product.
Matt Selig (00:06:35):
I used to be really surprised. I used to live just a mile from our factory. Our HOA would have annual night out where they would rent a bounce house for the kids. I'd always bring a couple cases of BKF to give away. I remember one of them across the field, I heard this woman yelling, "Bar Keepers Friend! Oh my God! I just wrote a research paper about that at school. I had no idea it was just made up mile from where I live." I've encountered that same kind of reaction. At HR seminar, a woman in front of me asked me where I worked and I said, "Bar Keepers Friend." And the woman behind me started yelling, "Oh my God! Bar Keepers Friend saved my life." I can't think of any other clean product that people get excited about, enthusiastically excited about for whatever reason they do about Bar Keepers Friend. I've seen it over and over and over.
Rob Collie (00:07:27):
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like what I say about Power BI. You don't typically expect people to rave about a piece of software, especially kind of "normal people." It's one thing to have some professional computer science programmer or developer rave about a new integrated development environment or a new development framework. You expect that kind of fanboy nerdery, right?
Matt Selig (00:07:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:53):
But amongst sort of the civilian population, you don't typically encounter people that just say, "Oh my God! It changed my life or saved my life" or, "Wow!" You just don't gush about software, you know?
Matt Selig (00:08:07):
Now that you say that, I've noticed that with the Power BI reports that we have, the very first day when we had a sales report up and running, I could hear people down the hallway gasping when they saw what we had. "Oh my God! I can't believe it." And we've had that same experience that we have at Bar Keepers Friend or BKF.
Rob Collie (00:08:25):
Well, we got to be careful. We don't want to get too many unexpectedly positive things in one place. If we got the cleaning product and the software and it's just one more, it might open a worm hole and then we're all gone. Got to watch that.
Rob Collie (00:08:38):
You mention down the hall. It's been really fascinating for me. I've called it like the extended 10 year, now 11 year field trip, where I was allowed to leave the Microsoft Redmond bubble, the dome, and go out in the real world. For the last 11 years, I've been a free range nerd and able to meet all kinds of cool people. Just so many things about the world that are so surprising.
Rob Collie (00:09:02):
So here's a product, a brand that is super well known. As far as I can tell, it's about 50% of all human beings that I run into know what it is, right? That's a hard thing to be. That's a big deal. And SerVaas Labs, you're 100% in this one facility here outside Indianapolis.
Matt Selig (00:09:27):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:09:27):
It's kind of like when I got to Microsoft and I expected to find that there were 200 people working on Excel, and it was more like 40 top, maybe even 30. It was just stunning that so few people could be behind something with such weight in the world. You're not just CFO, you run an impressively lean headquarters staff for a brand this big, which means wearing lots of hats. So what else... You don't just do CFO things, right?
Matt Selig (00:10:02):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:10:02):
You end up having to do a lot of stuff.
Matt Selig (00:10:05):
For a long time, I was our chief human resource officer also, because originally they needed somebody who could pass out dental insurance applications and there was nobody. And so I said, "I'll do that. Somebody's got to do it." And so I got wrapped up in HR work. And then finally it got too big. That's why I was in an HR seminar because I needed to know more about HR. It got so big, I needed somebody to do that for me. But in the time I've worked here, I've worked on the production line, I've driven forklifts, I've crawled under machines. I've done everything. Everything. Including the curator of our museum.
Rob Collie (00:10:44):
That's right. That's right. I have been to the Bar Keepers Friend Museum. On a previous podcast, we made it an ongoing joke about this one museum that I'd gone to in Sweden, the Vasa Museum. I didn't even think out the fact that I have really been to a very exclusive museum.
Matt Selig (00:11:00):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:11:01):
The Bar Keepers Friend Museum.
Matt Selig (00:11:03):
We need one of those penny rollers where you put your penny in and roll it out, then it makes a long oval penny that says BKF on it [crosstalk 00:11:11] BKF Museum.
Rob Collie (00:11:11):
That's right. That's right. This would be one of the most exclusive trinkets in the entire world.
Matt Selig (00:11:20):
That's what's so cool about the museum though. We have artifacts that go back to the 1880s and we have letters that the person who invented Bar Keepers Friend wrote that we've got off of eBay. I think it helps... Every employee gets to go see that museum and they get to see that. The 20 years I've been here is just... We've been the caretakers for a couple of decades. We talk about, "What do we do so that Bar Keepers Friend is around in the next 100 years?" We don't think about the quarterly earnings report and the conference call with all the Wall Street types. We just think how to build a solid business and caretake it while it's ours.
Rob Collie (00:12:03):
It's still a privately owned.
Matt Selig (00:12:05):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:12:05):
That's another thing that you wouldn't expect, right? You'd expect Bar Keepers Friend to be owned by one of the consumer packaged goods Goliaths, right?
Matt Selig (00:12:14):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:12:15):
Like a Unilever or something like that. And it's not.
Matt Selig (00:12:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Rob Collie (00:12:18):
It gives you a different kind of freedom as a company, doesn't it?
Matt Selig (00:12:23):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:12:23):
But as we're talking about it, it also restricts your resources.
Matt Selig (00:12:28):
Yeah, definitely.
Rob Collie (00:12:28):
And so, you mentioned all these jobs like forklift driver and all of that. Those are pretty cool. But the one of course I was fishing for was, without the title, you were also de facto BI director.
Matt Selig (00:12:42):
That's right. Uh-huh (affirmative). Yeah, it is, because everybody would come and ask me questions.
Rob Collie (00:12:49):
Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:12:49):
That opens up. BI just isn't what's in your software. I've got to be the guy who knows everything about everything or can get the answer really fast whether it's in an Excel spreadsheet or in a file somewhere or in somebody's head or in a PDF I saved 10 years ago. That's what always been my job is, kind of like the curator of our information.
Rob Collie (00:13:11):
Yeah. You were responsible for essentially developing the reports that answered your own questions, but also developing reports that answered basically everyone else's questions about what's going on in your business. And for what? You've been there for more than 20 years?
Matt Selig (00:13:29):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:13:30):
What is it? Is it 19 and a fraction that was 100% Excel essentially? Or not 100%, but overwhelmingly, Excel as the tool of choice?
Matt Selig (00:13:40):
Yeah. My first introduction to Excel was in August of 1995 when I started my first accounting job. My boss at that time had a... It was at an Apple II, the little square Apple II with the black and white screen.
Rob Collie (00:13:55):
Oh, yeah.
Matt Selig (00:13:56):
He said, "This is Excel." He said, "This is how you type a formula." And I learned equals A1 plus B1, return. That was my first earliest memory of Excel. But when I first got to Bar Keepers Friend... And there were some other companies associated with that. We still had a mail person that push the mail dolly around the offices. They didn't have email for employees here when I got here.
Rob Collie (00:14:22):
Wow.
Matt Selig (00:14:23):
The CEO had four secretaries that transcribed memos all day long, dictated but not read. And finally, she didn't want to hear about email. They were World War II generation. They didn't see the point. And they had a... What is it? A phone system, a PBX. It started crashing because people were bringing their AOL login information and tying up the phone line so they could get on the internet at work.
Rob Collie (00:14:51):
Wow.
Matt Selig (00:14:52):
In my previous job, we'd had a T1-line in 1995. So I was like, "This is email. This is old news," you know? But she didn't want to hear about it until she couldn't make a phone call because there weren't any lines available on her PBX and we got our first internet connection at these businesses. And before that, all the accounting was done on the big 2-foot wide dot matrix printers. She didn't want to hear about charts and graphs and Excel and stuff like that. The depreciation journals were books, physical books that you had to write on the ledger depreciation entries.
Rob Collie (00:15:30):
They just didn't need any of that fancy new fangled technology to beat the commies, did they?
Matt Selig (00:15:35):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:15:35):
Yeah, it wasn't necessary to beat the commies. "It's not necessary to run our business" until y'all staged an unintentional denial of service attack on her telephone.
Matt Selig (00:15:51):
Yeah. That was kind of when they first saw that, "Hey, maybe the internet really is something new." I remember I showed her a stock chart that I got off of newyorktimes.com. She was just fascinated that I could get that information myself and have it in seconds, where before it would've took her half in an afternoon to call her broker and get the information.
Rob Collie (00:16:13):
I look forward to the day where people like you and I, we will also be stubbornly refusing to adopt this, whatever the new thing is, like we're... For the moment, I still feel a little bit revolutionary. I'm still pushing something that the world hasn't come close to fully adopting yet. I can tell myself I'm current for the moment.
Matt Selig (00:16:34):
I mean, that's something that stuck with me that you've said that Power BI isn't the new latest, greatest thing. It's been around for seven or eight years, I think. And Excel is still the gold standard. And then I say, "I use Excel every day, and so I'm not knocking it." But one thing I've had to do since I got acquainted with Power BI is to learn how to really use Excel and not how I was using it for the last 20 years. It's a challenge in our own business now. I was just talking with somebody this morning. They got the sales information from Amazon, our biggest e-commerce customer. The tables, the report that they got off of Amazon's website was a mess. And I think Amazon does that on purpose. I probably shouldn't record that.
Rob Collie (00:17:15):
We're safe here. By the time Amazon comes for us, we'll all be well established.
Matt Selig (00:17:21):
But she would open an Excel page and then she'd open her browser window with a report in it. And then for the next four hours, she'd look at the Amazon page and then move over to the Excel window and type the number in, and then moved back and forth. And our intern, the same intern, put an Excel report that automated that task where all she had to do was cut and paste. It cut down that four hour job, once a month job, to 30 seconds and made it more accurate. And so, that old model of typing in a two columns of data, column A is the date and column B is the number and then you type a formula, equals B1 plus C1, that's what I've learned.
Matt Selig (00:18:08):
What I now see is the model is, that you use Excel as a data manipulation tool to automatically bring data in and then manipulate it once you get it there to answer questions you have, rather than manual entering the data all yourself. That was the way I did it 20 years ago.
Rob Collie (00:18:25):
Was that intern project there, was that a Power Query script?
Matt Selig (00:18:29):
I just saw the spreadsheet on... She shared the screen with me this morning so I'm not sure how he did it, but I don't believe he used Power Query, which I'm also kind of in the midst of... I'm working through M Is for Data Monkey right now to try to get-
Rob Collie (00:18:44):
You hear that? Ken Puls.
Matt Selig (00:18:47):
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know exactly how he did it. And I wanted to see that. But last night I couldn't sleep and I was texting my wife. You probably can't see this in the podcast, but there's a picture from M IS for Data Monkey.
Rob Collie (00:19:07):
You were texting your wife pictures while you were awake and she was asleep so that she see them in the morning when she woke up?
Matt Selig (00:19:13):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:19:16):
Now, this is kind of the communication we never would've envisioned, you know?
Matt Selig (00:19:20):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:21):
I do that too.
Matt Selig (00:19:24):
I've been trying to learn a new way to use Excel. I don't manually enter the data. If I'm finding myself manually entering the data, I'm doing something wrong. What I'm trying to learn is how to get the data into it, automatically clean it, something like Power Query. And then use some kind of magic like Power Pivot or Power BI to make it answer questions. I haven't quite figured out how to describe that yet but it's like I consider learning the right way to use Excel.
Rob Collie (00:19:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). We talk a lot about using the new tools, whether it's Power BI or whether it's the Power BI related tools that are now embedded in Excel. We call it "Being good to your future self."
Matt Selig (00:20:09):
Yeah, definitely.
Rob Collie (00:20:10):
Even the four hour transcription, it might be that it would take more than four hours to learn a better way.
Matt Selig (00:20:17):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:20:17):
So the short term incentive is to do it the old manual way, but that's because it's current me thinking about current me.
Matt Selig (00:20:27):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:20:27):
Current me needs to think about future me and be nicer to future me, because it turns out we're actually the same person. Well, so let's back up a little bit because there's something about your journey that I think is both admirable and very interesting. And at the same time, at least in our business, we have the privilege of seeing this with some frequency. This probably goes back about two years for you. You can correct me on that. But there's this moment where you just sort of came to the conclusion that there has got to be a better way.
Matt Selig (00:20:58):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:20:59):
And to come to that conclusion without knowing about a particular better way, just knowing in the absence of something that's crystallized in front of you, I think it's not the rarest thing in the world, but it's not a common leap either that you can become convinced of this without actually seeing an example of what that better thing is. You just know there has to be something better.
Matt Selig (00:21:23):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:21:23):
And you're convinced enough of it that you go looking.
Matt Selig (00:21:27):
Yeah, the intern that we got from Indiana University, he looked at what the lady was doing with that Amazon information. He said, "Well, I took Wayne Winston's class and I can fix this in five minutes." So the younger generation gets it. They don't have to go through this process. But that was a problem for years when I think I've told you that I'd sit in a meeting and people would ask me a question how many widgets did we buy in the last six months, what do they cost, and how many did we use. And by the time I got an answer, the discussion had changed topics three or four times. And I'd back up and say, "Hey, wait, I've got the answers to the question you asked five minutes ago." So that was a pain point. Another point you brought up is that people just stopped asking questions when they know they can't get an answer.
Rob Collie (00:22:10):
Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:22:11):
It's going to take half a day to get an answer that they just don't bother to ask. That was a pain point. There's got to be a better way. And then it's right. I never heard of Power BI. I only vaguely knew what a pivot table was. I've taken a tutorial on VLOOKUP and my wife laughs at me because she says, "When I met you, you said you knew how to write the formula for a VLOOKUP, but you couldn't imagine when you would ever need to use it."
Rob Collie (00:22:40):
That's funny, because looking at a lot of the spreadsheets that you were producing before Power BI, I found them to be pretty sophisticated.
Matt Selig (00:22:49):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:22:49):
So by the time you were about to jump to Power BI, I was under the distinct impression that you were... Excel did whatever you wanted it to do at that point.
Matt Selig (00:23:00):
Well, I was the guy who, if anybody had an Excel question, they came to ask. I've taken Ivy Tech at a local college here in Indianapolis. That's the online: beginning, intermediate, and advanced Excel classes. I took them all. I always take a tutorial. What I was trying to describe earlier, I wasn't using Excel the way it was supposed to be used as a data manipulation tool. I was using it as a manual, like a manual ledger almost. I'd make all my chicken scratches in Excel and then write formula that's going to answer questions or I'd make a chart. I wasn't really doing data analysis in it.
Rob Collie (00:23:36):
I'm going to step in and say, I think you're probably beating yourself up a little bit too much there. The thing that's beautiful about Excel is that it can kind of do whatever you want. It doesn't mean that it can do it efficiently.
Matt Selig (00:23:50):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:23:50):
You can get from A to B. It just might involve traversing the Grand Canyon down one side and up the other barefoot. I don't really think of you as having misuse it. I just think that it wasn't really a good fit for the things you actually need.
Matt Selig (00:24:05):
Yeah. And that pain point of to get an answer, it'd take a half a day so people just wouldn't ask the question. Excel, even now, a year and a half into this, it's the first program I open in the morning. I've spent a couple hours just today already doing different stuff in Excel. It's like an all day long, "You can't live without it" kind of thing.
Rob Collie (00:24:28):
We're coming for those remaining two hours. To be down to two hours is pretty good, but we can still do better.
Matt Selig (00:24:34):
That pain point in knowing what I want but not knowing how to do it I think was what was frustrating. I've told you the story. I remember there was a break in your class back in January. And I came up and threw my backpack on the floor and pulled my folder out and said, "Look, man, this is what we need." I've drawn it. [inaudible 00:24:55] I said, "This is what I need. Can we do this?" And you were like, "Yeah, sure, whatever."
Rob Collie (00:25:00):
Yeah. I think that the word that you kind of coalesced around after realizing there's got to be a better way, I think the word was dashboards. We need to be using dashboards. That's sort of like the first refinement. Is that correct? Do I remember that correctly? Or am I putting words in your mouth?
Matt Selig (00:25:19):
That's probably pretty close, because as the story goes, I walked past my wife's bookshelf and saw the orange Microsoft book, Analyzing Data in Microsoft Power BI and Power Pivot, I think. I just opened that book up and within a few minutes I realized "This is what I've been looking for." At some point, I drew that sales dashboard and said "This is the kind of sales dashboard I think we need." I just kind of on a whim grabbed a piece of paper and drew it. I didn't know how to actualize that, how to make a dashboard actually work, but I knew it could be done. I didn't know how to do it.
Rob Collie (00:25:52):
It wasn't on a cocktail napkin. It was on real paper. But I kind of like to describe it as the cocktail napkin dashboard sketch that you carried around with you at all times. Like just in case you run into the person that you can show this picture to and they can go, "Ah, we'll connect that with the actual way forward."
Matt Selig (00:26:12):
Yeah. I was like a lunatic walking around murdering. "We need this dashboard. This dashboard is going to change everything."
Rob Collie (00:26:23):
It reaches the point where people when they're about to meet you, like the person out front that's opening the door, [inaudible 00:26:30] just sort of takes him aside and said, "Listen, don't let him get the sketch out."
Matt Selig (00:26:36):
Anybody can find 100 little tutorials on Power BI on YouTube. I'd gone through a couple of those. And I was like, "Oh, that's really cool." You have a "This is what a data model is. This is how you link the tables. This is the common key. This is how you flip that and make a chart or a matrix or a pie chart in Power BI." And then I would see and be like, "Wow, yeah, this is it. This is it." And then I'd look in our accounting system and there were, I don't know, 800 tables in there. I had no idea what to do. I was utterly lost. I knew the answer was in there, but I didn't know how to find it.
Matt Selig (00:27:12):
But I ran across your book at a bookstore up by where we live. I started researching P3 and listening to some of your maybe podcasts on YouTube.You said something that always stick with me in one of that podcast that was, I don't know, maybe seven years old at this point where the person inside the organization that stumbles across this stuff feels like they discovered fire and they take it back and they show everybody they work with and say, "Look, I've discovered fire" and everybody's like, "Yeah, yeah, whatever." They keep entering these numbers in Excel. As Stephen Covey says, "The leader climbs up to the top of the tree and says, 'Wrong forest'. And everybody down at the bottom is chopping trees down, says, 'Shut up! We're making progress'."
Rob Collie (00:28:05):
Man, that's great. You can apply it to the fire thing too, right?
Matt Selig (00:28:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:28:10):
It's like, "Hey, listen, we'd love to hear about your fire, but we're over here chewing on this raw meat. It takes a really long time to eat it. We can't be bothered to hear about your fire thing," you know?
Matt Selig (00:28:24):
Right. Yeah, not invented here.
Rob Collie (00:28:28):
It just the status quo is just so powerful. And that's kind of what I was getting at when I said like, realizing there's got to be a better way even though you don't know exactly what it is yet and then going looking for it. That's not super common. It's almost like there's so many things that converge here. It's like almost no one ever gets fired or otherwise penalized for doing the same thing that the company did yesterday.
Matt Selig (00:28:54):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:28:55):
There's kind of no risk there in a way, just staying in that rut. You have to rock the boat and you have to take some risks. Maybe that's greater risks in certain cases than others. I don't get the impression that anyone was particularly upset with you or bothered by your desire for something new. But in some organizations, that absolutely happens. You're going to face explicit headwinds sometimes.
Matt Selig (00:29:18):
Well, I'm lucky to be in a high position in the organization. That's one thing about a small company. You can have your fingers in the whole thing. If I was in, I don't know, a big corporation like Microsoft, I could be office number 530C in a small Midwestern town in the middle of nowhere and just one of 80,000 people, you know?
Rob Collie (00:29:40):
Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:29:41):
But here I can just walk down the hallway to the owner and say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking about." And then I can walk out to the factory and look around. I can walk to the accounting department. So I was fortunate in that sense.
Rob Collie (00:29:55):
Well, human beings are really built primarily to operate at short range, like with people that you can see face to face, with things that you can touch. It's like the massive organization of a corporation is almost like a mutation, you know?
Matt Selig (00:30:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:30:11):
This ability to... I forget the author's name. But the book Sapiens-
Matt Selig (00:30:16):
I've heard of it.
Rob Collie (00:30:16):
... talks a lot about this and how it requires this incredible... It's basically a religion. It's how the book presents it. You need this ridiculously strong basically fictional belief that the corporation is an entity in order to rewire people to cooperate at distance that they can't see. You could call it old fashion, but we want to call it something different. We want to reflect... It's like the natural way to work, is sort of the right the kind of environment that you're in.
Matt Selig (00:30:45):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:30:46):
Of course the downside is, is that at that scale, you're also for a while the HR director.
Matt Selig (00:30:52):
Yeah. Sociology has a concept called the Dunbar limit where it says people can only maintain a stable relationship with about 150 people. It's always been interesting to me because I was in the army for a long time. The army segmented itself into basically 120 person units at the company level. And somehow they got onto the idea that once you have 120 people, you can't really have real relationships with 121 people.
Rob Collie (00:31:21):
It might not have been deliberate. We could take an evolutionary standpoint here and say "All the armies that tried to organize in groups larger than that, they got beat."
Matt Selig (00:31:30):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:31:32):
They're gone.
Matt Selig (00:31:33):
I think it's Patagonia that says "We're going to keep our facilities within the Dunbar limit. Once we get a 121 or 151, whatever it is, people, we're going to be build a new facility because it's difficult to maintain a social cohesiveness with a bigger group of people." And that's a challenge we face at SerVaas Labs because our sales increased 60% during the pandemic. We make cleaning products. We went from 70 employees to 105 employees. And now I walk through the factory and I see people that I don't know who they are. I don't know if they work here. I don't know anything about them other than there's some person in the building. And we're kind of approaching that limit. It's a challenge to think, "How do we remain SerVaas Laboratories, whatever the Dunbar limit is, when everybody can't have a face to face relationship anymore with everybody here?" That's kind of a big challenge right now.
Rob Collie (00:32:28):
For what it's worth, I suspect that everyone has a slightly different number for their Dunbar, you know?
Matt Selig (00:32:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:32:35):
I'm positive mine is well below average. I think I might have a number as closer to 10.
Matt Selig (00:32:46):
I think it was Justin Mannhardt, your P3 guy. Justin Mannhardt first came and helped us put together the dashboard. I think it was him that I first heard him say, that we just want a single source of truth. We don't want five different data models to make five different sales dashboards, or we don't want 10 different data models to make sales dashboards and cost dashboards and one source of truth. I've kind of clung to that to say, "That's the answer. We have a single source of truth, and we have several Dunbar groups." Maybe the first and second shift is the Dunbar group each, but we all have the same source of truth. That when we need to answer questions about what's happening, we don't have alternate realities.
Rob Collie (00:33:29):
The first time that I was introduced to this concept, one version of the truth, I was brand new to BI. I was working on the Excel team at Microsoft. But it's kind of funny. I had been tapped to be essentially in charge of the majority of the stuff that was going to be happening in Excel around BI, but I didn't know anything about BI. So I was getting this crash course on what BI means and was introduced to this one version of the truth.
Rob Collie (00:33:54):
And I'll tell you, the first time I heard this concept, it actually kind of pissed me off. I kind of bristled at the idea when I first heard it. The way it hit me the first time was in such like an anti-democratic way. And I think there was some truth to this the way I thought of it, but I didn't have the whole picture. The thing that I heard was, the powers that be centralized deity or whatever at great distance from the people who are doing the work are going to come up with that one version of the truth. And then they are going to inflict it, right?
Matt Selig (00:34:29):
Sounds like a Dilbert cartoon.
Rob Collie (00:34:30):
It does, doesn't it, right? And that's sort of what I thought of it was like, "We're going to take all of the innovation and original thought that's possibly in the organization and we're going to legislate it out." I think that is one of the things. That was sort of the dark underbelly of the one version of the truth back at the time.
Rob Collie (00:34:52):
Now, where we've landed with Power BI is this beautiful blend of the two strengths. We're not stifling innovation or original thought. We're giving it a conduit to actually come to life, to come to fruition and be implemented, be realized. You still have to decide. If there's multiple different possibilities of how you're going to calculate a metric, you have to pick one and you have to pick the right one. It's even easier to test now between those, like which one sort of most closely matches your targets or reality even. But yeah, you don't want to be playing "My spreadsheet can beat up your spreadsheet."
Rob Collie (00:35:33):
You hear this all the time. It might not have been as big of a deal at SerVaas, but at bigger organizations, meetings very often start out with everyone showing up with their spreadsheet their versions of the same thing. They have different numbers. And the point of the meeting was to decide X, Y, Z, but they never get around to X, Y, Z, because they're spending the whole meeting fighting about whose spreadsheet is right. That does need to stop.
Rob Collie (00:36:00):
And so I've come full circle. I am now a big believer in a phrase, in a principle, one version of the truth, that I was emotionally opposed to when I first encountered it. And it is. It's the best of both worlds. We get the innovation. We get the information and the ideas from the trenches where the things are actually happening. That's sort of a meritocracy of ideas whichever that can make it into the one version, that can be the one version now. Whereas in the past, whatever the best idea was going on out there, it was only in one person's spreadsheet and you couldn't tell the difference between that spreadsheet and all the other spreadsheets. There was no way.
Matt Selig (00:36:38):
When I was in the army, the two parts to the time I spent in the army, the first part was in the infantry. And that was very fluid. Everything was rapid change. You'd start out to do something and it would change immediately. They'd make you stay awake for four days and walk 20 miles a day with 80 pounds on you back and throw you in these impossible situations and you had to try to figure out what to do.
Matt Selig (00:37:03):
And as I started studying accounting, I said, "Well, I think I'll check out what the army does in its accounting work" because I'm a Finance Corps. I went to the controller's office in the Army National Guard Command. And I remember going to this woman and I was just the equivalent of an intern at that time. And I said, "What do you do?" And she says, "I take this piece of paper. I pick up that piece of paper. I put them together. I staple it and I put it in that pile." And I said, "Well, why do you do that?" She said, "Look, I take this piece of paper. I take that piece of paper. I staple them together and I put them in that pile." And I think bureaucracy is like a way of implementing one version of the truth, like every woman who did her job and every 50 national guards across the United States had one version of truth to how they did the job.
Rob Collie (00:37:53):
Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:37:54):
For me, I thought that was soul crushing.
Rob Collie (00:37:56):
Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:37:56):
I like the infantry. Make it up as you go along and figure out what to do.
Rob Collie (00:38:01):
So when she was answering that question, was there any hint of irony in her answer or was it matter of fact?
Matt Selig (00:38:09):
This is 25, 26 years ago. I remember it as kind of like a cynicism.
Rob Collie (00:38:14):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:38:17):
"This is what the book says. This is the way I do it. You're asking all these questions and the book doesn't authorize you to ask questions."
Rob Collie (00:38:24):
Yeah. It's like the guy in office space who goes in and talks to the two consultants and tells them the truth about what he actually does all day.
Matt Selig (00:38:31):
Yeah. And everybody there was like that. But I think that's how you get one version of the truth. You have a policy manual that says, "This is the one way we do it."
Rob Collie (00:38:42):
Yeah. So it's kind of like the bad version of one version of the truth is lowest common denominator.
Matt Selig (00:38:49):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:38:52):
It's like almost inherently about the worst thing. Instead, we want sort of the best thing to bubble up into that one version. We want the one version to be the best thing that we can do.
Matt Selig (00:39:01):
Every McDonald's I've ever been in on three continents has the same Big Mac.
Rob Collie (00:39:07):
But it's [inaudible 00:39:08] Big Mac.
Matt Selig (00:39:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:39:09):
I'm full of fiction. Not that same commonality for the Quarter Pounder though according to Jules.
Matt Selig (00:39:18):
I think that's kind of been a guiding principle. "Let's get to one version of the truth, but let's not use it as a straight jacket."
Rob Collie (00:39:25):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:39:26):
Let's use it to support the kind of the free flow of like, "I can't write a policy for this company for tomorrow or next year because I don't know what we'll be facing next year."
Rob Collie (00:39:38):
I mean, what could change in one year?
Matt Selig (00:39:40):
Our sales could go up 60% and our headcount could increase 50%.
Rob Collie (00:39:46):
Oh, cry me a river. Your 60% revenue growth, such a huge problem. However, it actually does cause problems, right? You can't just sit back and operate like you did yesterday under such circumstances.
Rob Collie (00:39:57):
Let's rewind to January of this year. I think we should all just let Matt Selig pick stocks for us going forward. We should go to Vegas with him or something because Matt has amazing foresight. In January, he knew the world was about to be turned upside down and he needed to get that long running, there has to be a better way. He saw it all coming. He knew. He knew he needed to get Power BI implemented ASAP. Of course, I'm joking. You didn't see this coming anymore than the rest of us probably. But the timing was amazing.
Matt Selig (00:40:26):
I kind of did, but for a different reason.
Rob Collie (00:40:28):
Oh you did?
Matt Selig (00:40:29):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:40:29):
Oh, okay. Yeah, maybe we could talk about that. But yeah, you got Power BI kicked off at SerVaas Labs in February, right?
Matt Selig (00:40:38):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mid February.
Rob Collie (00:40:40):
You came to our class in January and you told us afterwards. It's kind of as a means of almost interviewing us, sort of getting a feel for us.
Matt Selig (00:40:47):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:40:48):
Because it is, like you mentioned, it's a scary step when you're going to finally commit to trying out one of the ways that it might turn out to be the better way. Sooner or later you have to take this leap and commit some significant amount of your own money, some significant amount of your own time, and even picking the software platform, choosing which one you're going to use, choosing a firm to help you with it. This is scary for a good reason. And so you had kind of stumbled onto us. You'd found the book and all of that. And you thought, "Okay, this is a candidate." But you were careful. You and one other person from SerVaas, you both came to our January class. We apparently didn't scare you off. And then we did our first jumpstart engagement to kick off a project with you in February.
Matt Selig (00:41:34):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:41:35):
I've got the timeline.
Matt Selig (00:41:36):
The pressure I was facing at the time is we had a dashboard consulting company that will remain unnamed, that came on really hard and heavy with the... We've got this amazing dashboard that's going to show you it's going to have one page that has all of your costs categorized by things like freight, materials, chemicals, labor. We're going to compare it to a database that shows what you should have paid for those things. We only want $6,500 a month. They kind of like, you see fire all of a sudden. You discover fire. And while you're so amazed, they say "Sign this contract."
Rob Collie (00:42:14):
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:42:14):
But I had seen enough of Power BI to think their dashboard wasn't very good. It was crazy overpriced. And if we didn't like it anymore and didn't renew, we lost it. So I got motivated to find a better solution. I'd already talked to somebody at P3 early in 2019, but kind of just lost contact with them. I put it on the back burner. And I got a hold...
Matt Selig (00:42:38):
And yeah, going to the class, I mean, we learned things about Power Query, Power Pivot. We learned a very little bit about Power BI, but we were there to check you guys out to see if you were a bunch of hucksters like the last salting company was, or if we really knew what you were talking about. I think my wife worked right by where the class was, so the three of us all went out to lunch one day.
Rob Collie (00:43:05):
We did.
Matt Selig (00:43:06):
Yeah, because she work literally 50 steps from where the class was. My wife and I took a couple P3 people out to dinner that night. We were enjoying ourselves but I just kind of wanted to know, "Are these just another hucksters that are trying to get us to sign a contractor before we realized what happens?"
Rob Collie (00:43:24):
There you go. There's our new ad campaign. We're not hucksters.
Matt Selig (00:43:30):
After that, I talked to our president and our chief marketing officer. I said, "They save her. For X amount of dollars, they can come in here in three days and get something up and running. I think we should give them a shot." And they were both enthusiastic about that because I was showing them my drawing that I'd shown you at that class.
Matt Selig (00:43:46):
And Justin came down for three days. The first day the report he came up with, I was like, "Ooh. Oh, that doesn't look too good. It's better than what we got, but it's not that... Nobody's going to write home about this." But by the third day, through that iterative process of saying, "Okay, this is what I got, tell me what you need. Okay, this is what I got. Tell me what you need." And he put 50 more sticky notes on the white board. He just kept chiseling away, like Michael Angelo making the statue by removing all the parts of the rock that aren't the statue. And by the end of the day, we had people gasping when they saw the dashboard. It was the same kind of reaction I experienced with Bar Keepers Friend from people who were looking at it and they were like, "Oh my God. I heard that. Oh my God, I can't believe this."
Rob Collie (00:44:35):
Yeah. [inaudible 00:44:36] was like a Lord of the Rings thing. "By the end of the third day, look to the west" or something. But yeah, because it... Your local here to Indianapolis. Justin, isn't. He flew in for this. But I dropped in on you on one of those, in the afternoon.
Matt Selig (00:44:51):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:44:52):
Yeah. I mean, there was a real live and breathing initial, anyway, initial set of a couple of dashboards. You'd already been making discoveries. There was at least one or two discoveries you'd made about your business that were surprising. That's actually relatively typical.
Rob Collie (00:45:08):
I was recently asked to put together a one minute video. Anyone who knows me knows that this one minute of video, like, "Oh my God, you're going to let him talk. He has to say something coherent in one minute? That's not his thing." I was asked to record a one minute video giving sort of my number one piece of advice to people who are needing BI, to the BI universe, but mostly to the customers of BI. This is a terrible challenge. But it was really helpful. It was crystallizing, galvanizing in a way, because what I came up with is that you should set five business days as sort of the limit, the elapsed time limit before you see your first results. When I say first results, it's sort of like what you were looking at, even a little bit at the end of day two and definitely into day three of not that first day but late second day and then the third day. We were under the five business day limit for those first results. It doesn't mean that you're done.
Matt Selig (00:46:10):
Right. Not at all.
Rob Collie (00:46:11):
It doesn't mean that you're done. You're never really done. That's the beautiful thing, it's that you can always improve. You're just improving less and less. Over time, you're more than likely to be doing brand new things than fine tuning forever on a single report. That's not how it works. So that's what I did in this video, is to say any project timeline that involves you waiting more than five business days to see your first results is a loser project strategy. And just as importantly, this five day thing with the new tools that are available to us, this five day thing is absolutely legitimate. It's doable. It's achievable. So if you start hearing projects that are measured in months, maybe it does take months to get to where you ultimately want to be, but you're not going to be working on it full time for months to get there.
Matt Selig (00:47:01):
Yeah. I had told you before we started the podcast here, it was kind of like the Grand Canyon. We stood at the edge and there was a lot of DAX in the middle to get to the other side. And to bring up our internal skillset to the level, we needed to get across that Gulf. It was going to take years maybe. Now, that's what P3 really did, was help get us from that side where we knew what we could have and we got across to the other side. And in the meantime, I went to your class, a book that really helped me get going was Roger Silva's Create and Learn in Power BI. Power BI Create and Learn by Roger Silva. It's still on my desk and it got me to the point where I said, "I can write a report now."
Matt Selig (00:47:47):
Justin started to build that data model and I could write a report on top of it. I didn't have to learn how to make the data model, which was going to take me months to get up to that skill level. And I could take the reports that Justin created or further P3 consultants that we worked with, like Ryan and Paul, and I could work with it. I could change things. I knew how to change the title on and matrix report for visual for instance. I knew how to add a column. I knew how to put a slicer in. I knew what information I wanted. If I couldn't figure out how to do it, I could come back to the consultant and say, "Hey, could you show me how to blank, blank, blank? I'm trying to make this pie chart that has this information."
Rob Collie (00:48:25):
This is a really cool dynamic that we don't have with all of our clients. Not all of our clients want this, to be perfectly honest. And that's okay if you don't want this, it's totally fine, obviously. But you are very keen and very spongy in terms of soaking up knowledge. And you are. You're advancing your own capabilities in this space and we're even helping you do that. So this interesting hybrid of our team, multiple members of our team at various points in time, have been helping you advance the ball down the field, but at the same time, you've also been learning how to do a number of these things for yourself.
Matt Selig (00:49:03):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:49:03):
So you don't need us for everything.
Matt Selig (00:49:05):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:49:05):
You sort of need us on the frontier.
Matt Selig (00:49:07):
Last week, I had the capital expenditures report that I was showing you with the three different matrices. I figured out a way to do it, but I was like, "Oh my gosh. When I tell Paul Boynton what I did to do this, he's going to laugh." But I made it work. I made it work. Paul and I got on our weekly call and I said, "You're going to laugh when I show you how I did this." And he laughed, but he also showed me, "But you could have done it like this." And then we fixed it and made it the way it should be. Some things I've just said, "I have no idea how to do what I want, like this customer profitability report, but we really need it really bad." And then we've turned that over to him.
Matt Selig (00:49:50):
In the meantime, I think I mentioned I'm working through M Is for Data Monkeys. I've worked through parts of your book. I'm working on Matt Allington's supercharged Power BI with DAX. I've taken a Udemy class on DAX with Gilly Dow in England. My first exposure to Excel in 1995, I still learned stuff about Excel. It's so big. Just a couple days ago, I watched a little tutorial on how to do an XLOOKUP function. I've never done it before. I'd heard of it, but I was like, "What is that thing?" And there's just so much to learn in there. I kind of feel the same way with... I'm not sure Power BI is just kind of like the shell on top of everything, isn't it? I mean, isn't it the data model beneath it all that's kind of driving the ship?
Rob Collie (00:50:33):
Yeah. I mean, the data model, the DAX calculation engine, the M engine behind Power Query, these are the things that are really core and they're also the ones that are most powerful, the most useful, all that, and most unique. They're also the ones that require learning, right?
Matt Selig (00:50:52):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:50:52):
They're the ones with the learning curve.
Matt Selig (00:50:54):
If you have a good data model, you can make a matrix in Power BI if you know the basics, you know?
Rob Collie (00:51:00):
Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:51:01):
You can change the colors on it. So that's, to me, what P3 has been the most useful for us building that infrastructure underneath the amazing, cool reports we have.
Rob Collie (00:51:14):
Yeah. It's really, really satisfying to me and gratifying to hear you say things, even small things like, "I know how to change the title." I know that's not technical, right? You also do write some DAX. I've seen it.
Matt Selig (00:51:26):
Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:51:28):
And you're reading these books. You're dedicated to constantly improving and growing and learning. We just hired... For example, for the first time ever, we have a full-time web developer working for our company. It's not just for the website. It's for a lot of things, but just basically everything that we do digitally out in the world to try to reach people, he's going to be involved in. He was telling this story the other day about he had worked for an ad agency or something like that in the past. He was in a meeting with some clients and he said the client was describing something that they needed. And Alex, Alex is his name, spoke up and said, "Yeah, that's easy. I can do that in no time." It was just a good, helpful human thing to say. But then when the meeting was over and everyone was gone, he got scolded and told he was never allowed to say anything was easy over again.
Rob Collie (00:52:21):
He needed from now on to say... Whenever he wanted to say something was easy, he had to say it was interesting, instead. Because yeah, of course there are times that you think something's easy, and it doesn't turn out to be easy. You always want to be careful about that situation. But the instructions in this case he was getting were that essentially we had an opportunity there to charge a lot more money for the thing that you were going to do. We can't mark it up to 10000% that we were going to otherwise.
Rob Collie (00:52:49):
I just love the fact that we have leaned into the honest version of all of this. We're not going to tell you, "Oh no, it's hard to change titles on charts," you know? Or do our best to keep you out of the text so that you don't ever discover that you can. We've been running with this experiment now for a long time, long enough to know that it works, that we're going to deliver things as quickly, as efficiently, as cost effectively as we possibly can. We're not going to try to hoard things and make it a black magic. And a lot of people didn't believe that that would work. But here you are, sort of surfing this hybrid model. On the flip side, if you're willing to learn all this stuff yourself and you are getting better at it every day-
Matt Selig (00:53:35):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:53:36):
... why do you still use P3 for anything?
Matt Selig (00:53:40):
I was just kind of thinking through. We haven't really talked a lot exactly what we did. We've said, "Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. I can't believe it. It's amazing. It's world changing. It's this bright, shiny fire." What we've done with P3... I can't remember if you've seen my whiteboard behind me where I've laid out the plan for our dashboard reporting. I thought I would get it done in six months, but the pandemic happened and it slowed everything down. But to date, we've got a sales dashboard report that will tell you anything you want to know about who we sell to, what we sell to, what they pay for, how we promote with them. Anything. Anything you want to know. We've got a cost dashboard that tells you anything you want to know about our costs and what we buy, who we buy it from, what we pay for it, how much we get. Anything you want to know about our costs.
Matt Selig (00:54:29):
And I told Luke yesterday, "We tried to make these so any average schmuck could look at this stuff and it would be obvious." You don't need to be a CPA. You don't need to be a data jockey. We wanted this stuff like Fred Flinstone simple. And then we have an inventory report that tells us anything we want to know about our raw materials, our finished goods in our warehouses. It's just we couldn't have done it without somebody. P3 built the data model underneath all that and created a lot of the reports that were just beyond our abilities.
Matt Selig (00:55:03):
And in the meantime, I've studied like crazy to try to get better myself, because it's interesting to me for one. And it's kind of like Excel, there's so much there to learn. There's a good five years worth of material there to learn. I'm sure of it. It's funny. Before this podcast, I was showing you, "I just learned how to post a Power BI reporting teams." And you said, "I don't think I've ever seen that." You're the pro and you still have stuff to learn.
Rob Collie (00:55:29):
Well, I've largely been put out to pasture. I'm the mascot now.
Matt Selig (00:55:37):
Yeah. You're here with the pretty face.
Rob Collie (00:55:41):
Yeah, we're in trouble. Now I'm the person that says "We're not going to use email." I'm the one that fights change.
Matt Selig (00:55:49):
So what we have online in the next, I don't know, six to nine months... I think it's optimistic, but we want to bring our factory into Power BI so that you can watch our factory run from anywhere in the world, on your cell phone. Everything. Everything. You can see how many units it produced, how much downtime it had, how hot the sensor was at a certain position at a certain time, what maintenance needs to be done. So we're going to have our whole factory online.
Matt Selig (00:56:21):
The other big project that's coming online is digital marketing. We don't do television advertising and radio advertising. We used to, but we haven't in a long time. But our digital marketing on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, TikTok, YouTube, all those digital channels are pumping out a lot of data also. We're going to build reports that show our digital marketing operations happening in real time so we can see that. If the person who does our digital marketing says, "Oh, we've spent a thousand dollars on an influencer in Nebraska," let's say, I want to know, "Well, how many cans of Bar Keepers Friend did that move off the shelf?" I don't know if we can ever answer that specific question, but that's the kind of stuff we want to know.
Rob Collie (00:57:07):
Attribution is hard in those circumstances.
Matt Selig (00:57:09):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:57:10):
But at the same time, you've got seasonality, you've got baselines, you have the date of the influencer campaign beginning and ending and all that kind of stuff so you can... You know how they say, "Correlation is not causation."
Matt Selig (00:57:23):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:57:23):
Correlation is sometimes pretty good.
Matt Selig (00:57:26):
The final piece of the puzzle is to take our customers data. We sell to the biggest retailers in the United States, Walmart, Target, Dollar General, Amazon, Lowe's, Home Depot, Kroger, you name it. We think we have a pretty high penetration in all those customers. And they generate data. We want to take our biggest customers like Walmart, Target, Dollar General, Amazon, and bring their point of sale data into Power BI so that we can watch Bar Keepers Friend moving across their cash registers and we can tie that together there with our digital marketing efforts and say that we've tried to created a digital marketing campaign that tried to sell Bar Keepers Friend on the east side of Tulsa, Oklahoma at Walmart. Let's see if that happened.
Rob Collie (00:58:18):
Yeah. And right now the sales data that you do get is from each customer, which is a retailer, right?
Matt Selig (00:58:26):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:58:27):
You don't get a lot of granularity. Maybe you get some information like, "We shipped it to the east warehouse versus the west warehouse" or something like that. It's not time synced with the actual sale, right? You're dependent upon when they decided to reorder. You wouldn't be able to see those sorts of things you're talking about. You need that kind of granularity especially when you're having to these sorts of attribution types of exercises.
Matt Selig (00:58:50):
Our salespeople need it when they go to visit Walmart, for instance, or Target. When they show up at Walmart buying center in Bentonville, they need good information to take to that buyer. They only have 30 minutes. They need to have a powerful tool to make their case when they get that 30 minutes once a year to get in there and sell to them. And for what they tell me, they love our sales dashboards, but they say that the kind of BI tools we're developing are what people like Walmart expect the big CPG players like Procter & Gamble, Johnson & Johnson to have, but they don't expect a small little company like SerVaas Labs to be that sophisticated. But we're getting there. There's a lot of hard work to do between now and then, but I think it'll happen.
Rob Collie (00:59:40):
They don't expect it today, but they will soon.
Matt Selig (00:59:43):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:59:46):
You're going to change their perceptions. Yeah.
Matt Selig (00:59:50):
Yeah. And that gives us more credibility when we show up.
Rob Collie (00:59:55):
That's right.
Matt Selig (00:59:55):
In Walmart, Bar Keepers Friend is two facings on miles worth of shelves. We command six inches of shelf on Walmarts.
Rob Collie (01:00:05):
These are the things that I always try to tell people ahead of time: how much is possible and how good it's going to be. But I think in the process of actually telling people the truth, I actually start to sound like I'm lying, you know? And so this is the riddle we're trying to crack, is how to actually tell people the truth about what to expect from Power BI and what to expect from working with us.
Matt Selig (01:00:29):
Put a little sign by my picture that says, "Not a paid-
Rob Collie (01:00:32):
Not a paid. Yeah.
Matt Selig (01:00:34):
... endorsement."
Rob Collie (01:00:34):
That's right. We did a case study together. You were kind enough to participate on a polished case study.
Matt Selig (01:00:40):
It does sound pretty crazy, but I don't think we've said anything here in the last hour that doesn't reflect reality.
Rob Collie (01:00:47):
Isn't that neat?
Matt Selig (01:00:47):
Because I'm super reality-based. I'm not a pie in the sky dreamer. If I didn't think P3 had lived up to our expectations, then I would've walked out of the class in January and said, "Nope, we keep looking guys."
Rob Collie (01:01:02):
Onto the next Huckster.
Matt Selig (01:01:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:01:09):
All right. Well, Matt, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show with us. I've enjoyed knowing you and I've also love watching the journey that you've been on. I love like just how differently you're talking, how much progress you've made. I also love that you're even as amazing as the things that you've got now are relative to where you were before you started this. You're already talking about turning what you have today and making it look like it was kindergarten.
Matt Selig (01:01:37):
Yeah, definitely. I think what we're about to do... We're like Icarus. We're flying near the sun, but I think what we're about to do will be the most amazing part yet, really.
Rob Collie (01:01:47):
The sun is farther away than it looks. You're going to be fine. Your wings aren't going to melt. All right. Well, thank you very much.
Matt Selig (01:01:54):
Okay. Well, it's been my pleasure.
Announcer (01:01:56):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email lukep, L-U-K-E-P, @powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Stephanie Bruno and Shannon Lindsay join Rob for a special holiday giving edition of the podcast. This duo makes up the colorful online world of The Data Witches. Both of these ladies in tech are Power BI User Group Leaders in their respective regions of Pittsburgh and Washington, DC. The witches continue to use their Powers (of BI) for good across many philanthropic efforts: * From their early days working together at the Elizabeth Glaser Pediatric AIDS Foundation (EGPAF). * Shannon & Stephanie's philanthropic work with non-profits such as The World Central Kitchen * There's a holiday fundraising effort for EGPAF, where your donations will be matched through December 24th! Donate Here
Episode Timeline:
- 2:00 - The Origin of the "Witches" name and how they discovered the magic of the Power Platform
- 6:40 - The Vampiric manner that the Witches are converting others to Power BI
- 12:25 - Power BI is vital in data optimization in the Non-profit space
- 17:20 - The Data Community is an amazing community-those that have the Data Itch are a different and helpful type of human
- 30:00 - Gender and the data world, Rob and Stephanie debate the usefulness of Calculus, and the elation of besting one's academic rivals
- 39:50 - Data quality is important, especially so when lives are at stake...it's evident in the analytics
- 47:10 - How the Witches are using Power Apps and Power Automate
- 55:00 - Upstream and Downstream flows to Power BI- The concept of the Action Loop
- 1:01:30 - Stephanie's recent graduate degree and the highs and lows of going back to grad school
- 1:07:30 - The resistance to change and new technology-predictive modeling and machine learning are a tough sell
- 1:11:25 - Shannon's new gig at the not quite so non-profit Microsoft
- 1:16:15 - How COVID has impacted operations, and how non-profits view Microsoft and other large corporations
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome, everyone. We all know that Power BI is good. We all know that the Power platform is good. But it's not often, that we get to talk about it actually directly helping to save lives. But in a very real sense, our guest this week, the Data Witches, that's what they've been doing. They've been using the Power platform to help save lives. The data witches, Stephanie and Shannon met while working at the Elizabeth Glaser Pediatric AIDS Foundation. So clearly, they're good witches, but they're data witches. And after seeing the promise of the Power platform and Power BI specifically, they've successfully advocated for the adoption of these tools within that organization, to great impact. Years ago, on separate occasions, I actually had the pleasure of having each of them in one of my classes. And so I played a small part in their introduction to this world. But that's just the beginning of the story. Because these two have really spread the religion far and wide, both within the nonprofit sphere and elsewhere. This was a really great conversation with two great people. And I hope you enjoy it. So let's get after it.
Announcer (00:01:20):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please.
Announcer (00:01:24):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:39):
Welcome to the show, Data witches, Shannon and Stephanie. Alright, so let's start there. You started a blog. You call yourselves the Data Witches. Did you have any particular witches from fiction in mind that you sort of identify with? I'm assuming it's not the evil witches. I know both of you, you're pretty nice. So was there any particular inspiration? Is this a reference to the TV show, Charmed or anything like that?
Stephanie Bruno (00:02:12):
It was not. No. First of all, thanks for having us here, Rob. Data Witches is new, like you said. The name came because Shannon and I were doing a presentation together at the... What was it Shannon?
Shannon Lindsay (00:02:27):
The Power Platform World Tour, DC.
Stephanie Bruno (00:02:31):
That's right. Right before everything shut down. It was in March. And we were doing a presentation on optimizing your data models in Power BI and showing some tools and someone in the, one of the participants said, "What is this witchcraft you're showing us?" So we decided to just go with that. So, no. No specific witch.
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
Okay. Witchcraft, though. That's good. I like that.
Stephanie Bruno (00:02:53):
It's witchcraft. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:55):
A talk on optimizing your data models.
Stephanie Bruno (00:02:58):
Indeed.
Rob Collie (00:02:59):
I went to School of Computer Science, and all of that. And I still wouldn't have predicted that my future self might be on stage giving a talk about optimizing data models. Did either of you sort of see that in your career future 10 years ago. We're going to be on stage talking about optimizing data models.
Stephanie Bruno (00:03:15):
No, never, not at all. I don't even like getting on stage. I never thought I would want to do that ever. Which is one of the reasons I like to present with Shannon a lot. Presenting with a buddy, I think is a, makes it a lot more fun. And Shannon's a great presenter. So I started presenting at user groups. But once I got to present with Shannon, it just became a lot more fun.
Shannon Lindsay (00:03:36):
I never in a million years, saw myself talking about data models, or even knowing what they are. I like to be on stage to sing and dance. But the tech came later.
Rob Collie (00:03:48):
Do you sing or dance during the tech presentations?
Shannon Lindsay (00:03:51):
Occasionally.
Rob Collie (00:03:52):
Really?
Shannon Lindsay (00:03:53):
Interpretive dance works really well, for data model optimization.
Rob Collie (00:03:57):
This is a many to many relationship. Let me show you what it looks like. That's awesome. Yeah, being able to blend that sort of personal touch into talk, to me, even though people just really don't expect it. I love that sort of thing when you can, when it's done right. So what are your backgrounds? How did you discover Power BI and the road from singing and dancing right on stage, right? The road from that to optimizing data models on stage. It's an interesting road. I find this kind of stuff to be the absolute best stuff. If we didn't set out to be techies to begin with. But we discover something that helps us. That's the best thing. If you're doing it for tech sake, you're almost certainly not even doing it well. People might think of this, "Oh, the accidental path to getting somewhere." No, it's the right path. It's really the only one that matters. And so, I know bits and pieces of your stories, but I don't know all of it. And I'm sure people listening would love to hear it. So let's talk about you.
Shannon Lindsay (00:04:58):
I'll start with this one. I'm Mrs. Shannon. I had a non traditional path into this, which I think a lot of people in this field did. Which I find so fascinating. My background is really, as an analyst, if you put it in data speak. Many moons ago, after college, I joined the Peace Corps because I wanted to experience other parts of the world. And I thought it was kind of my duty being so fortunate to be able to work with people that were less fortunate and understand what the rest of the world lives like. And it was actually during that experience that I got to work with a health facility. I was doing health education, and I got to work at a health facility and help them implement their first ever electronic medical records.
Shannon Lindsay (00:05:45):
And then it was from there that I decided to go on and get a degree in public health. And from there, I specialized in something called monitoring and evaluation, which is like a little niche part of development and public health organizations. But essentially, all it is, it's an analyst. And I was using a lot of Excel, that was basically everything I was doing. And once I met Stephanie, after years at different organizations, we landed at the same organization. And once I met her, she introduced me to the literal magic, that was Power Query. And it was honestly from there that my whole journey with Power Query, Power BI really started. So it was probably about I don't know, a year after Stephanie and I met that I came to my first Power Pivot Pro training. And then there my journey just continued.
Rob Collie (00:06:41):
Awesome. Okay, so that means Stephanie was like patient zero in your life, right? She was the one that was infected first. Let's, so Stephanie how many fellow... We can use the witch metaphor, we start using the vampire metaphor, right? Because vampires make other vampires. Stephanie you just going around in the world minting other Power BI people or, how's this working?
Stephanie Bruno (00:07:05):
I'm doing my best. Definitely trying to, but I would say that Shannon is the most infected of anybody that I've had the opportunity to infect. Yeah, she's really taken it on. And once I saw that in her, that she liked it. I didn't let up. It's like, "Oh, Shannon, you like Power Query? Look at DAX, let's go there next." Yes. So my opportunities to teach more people they are generally more within our organization, is where I started with them. But then also the community, I would say, that's the thing that really was the big changer for me, in my path getting here. I do have a IT background and a left brain background, I guess. My degree is in math and physics. And I started off in IT as a software developer. But I always liked that I could just hide in the corner and do everything by myself. And I thought that was just fine. Until I had an opportunity to go to a past summit in 2013.
Stephanie Bruno (00:08:06):
And I do remember thinking, "Okay, this is awesome." I have two little kids at home. I'm busy all the time. I don't get any sleep. I'm just going to go to these sessions and learn a bunch of stuff. And then sleep. Just get a lot of sleep and watch movies and stuff in my hotel room. You're chuckling because you know that's not what happens at past Summit, I think. So-
Rob Collie (00:08:23):
I've been a couple times.
Stephanie Bruno (00:08:25):
... Yeah. So that it turned out, no, I was completely wrong. And a bunch of nice people took me under their wing. And they said, "Oh, you do this great work for HIV in Africa. And we want to help you with that. This is amazing." So needless to say, I got very little sleep. But I met a lot of people and my eyes were open to, "Wow, this thing called community, I think that this is actually probably way better than just hiding in a corner and doing my IT work by myself." So everything just exploded from there. And I realized that there's a lot to learn and a lot of people who are really nice and want to help and share with each other. So that changed everything for me.
Rob Collie (00:09:06):
Yeah. That's really cool. I didn't know that you had that math and physics background. I didn't know. Or maybe I did, just don't remember which is also-
Stephanie Bruno (00:09:14):
What? You don't remember everything about everybody who attends your classes, Rob?
Rob Collie (00:09:17):
No, I don't remember a lot. I wouldn't have guessed from knowing you that you came from an IT background. That's really just because of the IT stereotype of, IT isn't necessarily known for their communication skills, or their warmth. One of the things we're always talking about on this show, is the notion that the hybrid is where it's at. Whatever the sort of the day to day, subject matter or business domain is. You have to be firmly rooted in that subject out in the trenches, so to speak, while at the same time able to execute technically. And if you have both of those sort of in one brain that's infinitely more valuable than having it in two separate brains.
Rob Collie (00:10:08):
It's kind of unfair to IT in a way, if I go, "Oh, you're just way too personable to have come from IT." But that's something else I want to talk about, which is that so many people who find themselves to be really drawn to this stuff, whatever this stuff is data, right? And using it, to help using it for an advantage. So many of us, this group, this community, so many of us did not grow up as the STEM people. The math and science people. Stephanie it sounds like you did. You didn't go from a liberal arts and humanities focus in high school directly to math and physics in college, I don't think.
Stephanie Bruno (00:10:50):
That true.
Rob Collie (00:10:50):
You probably are already on that path a little bit. Did you go to math competitions in high school?
Stephanie Bruno (00:10:55):
I did not do that.
Rob Collie (00:10:55):
Oh, see?
Stephanie Bruno (00:10:58):
No.
Rob Collie (00:10:59):
Yeah.
Stephanie Bruno (00:10:59):
Yeah. Not full on. I'm sorry to disappoint you here.
Rob Collie (00:11:04):
They were debating giving us math nerds a letter, like a varsity letter to put on our jackets for math team. And I was like, "Oh."
Stephanie Bruno (00:11:12):
So you did? You did go to math competitions?
Rob Collie (00:11:15):
Oh, yeah. I was a [mathlete 00:11:20] and physics competitions, and all that kind of stuff. But I had the sense even then to know that putting a letter on my jacket for math team was just going to make me a magnet for ridicule and bullying. So I just said, "No, we don't need to do that." But Shannon, did you grow up as a Math Science nerd?
Shannon Lindsay (00:11:38):
No, not at all. My undergraduate degrees in biology, but I think I picked it because it was the easiest science. I was never good at Math, I would still say that I'm not great at Math. But through Stephanie's coaching, and the work that I've done, I realized that I am now capable of doing Math at least. But no, I was not a huge academic. I really started getting serious about caring about the data once I saw it, and I was working in the field. And I think that your reference to having both brains is really interesting. Because when I first started working with Stephanie, I had the field experience, and she had all of the technical knowledge. And I think over the last five or so years, we've both learned so much from each other. In both arenas, it's been really cool.
Rob Collie (00:12:27):
You met working for a nonprofit, in the nonprofit space. And P3, we've done a reasonable amount of work for nonprofits. My belief is that really the kinds of problems that with data that you tend to be solving aren't really structurally much different at all, working in the nonprofit space versus the for profit space. The biggest difference would be if we were going to advertise our services to the nonprofit sector, we wouldn't say things like, bring the impact to the bottom line. We probably just wouldn't talk a certain way. That the work would probably be similar. For example, we did some work for FEMA. FEMA is a government agency, not a nonprofit, but it basically is. And one of the metrics that they had that I thought was really cool, was essentially, how much does it cost us to spend $1.
Rob Collie (00:13:23):
We've got all this money that we need to deploy in response to a disaster. A hurricane wipes out Florida for the 10th time in the decade and gets declared a disaster zone. And so FEMA deploys and tries to put a bunch of money in the field in various forms, insurance and things like that. But there's also an overhead cost of doing that. So it's an efficiency metric. What are the sorts of metrics and things that you've find yourselves optimizing for? I know that you can't speak for the entire nonprofit space. What's the name of the organization again, where you met?
Stephanie Bruno (00:13:58):
It's the Elizabeth Glaser Pediatric AIDS Foundation.
Rob Collie (00:14:02):
See, I was pretty sure that's what I was going to say. I didn't want to mess up a word here. There's a lot of words in that-
Stephanie Bruno (00:14:09):
It's very long, if you want to say it again, you can say EGPAF.
Rob Collie (00:14:14):
EGPAF. All right. I figured that there's got to be a cool abbreviation for it. What are the sorts of things that you find yourselves optimizing for at that organization? It's not profitability, right?
Stephanie Bruno (00:14:25):
Right. Well, I actually jumped over from our IT department a few years ago to the department, Shannon was mentioning, monitoring and evaluation. Because I wanted to work closer to the data about the people, and less the operational data. So since I did that, then I am focused on that. We call it program data. So that's the data about all the facilities in Africa that we support. How many people are retesting for HIV, and of those people, how many people are we getting on treatment? And how many people stay on treatment? So it's really about it impact, it's less about profitability. So we try to show not how much profit we make, but how many people we're serving, basically.
Stephanie Bruno (00:15:09):
But in addition to that, you mentioned that how much does it cost to spend $1? For us a really hard number to get accurate is, how much does it cost to test a person? And you can imagine that's because data silos, right? So because we've got our finance system, we've got a whole bunch of systems, and then we've got the program data system, and they just aren't at the same level. And so it's just years and years and years. And it's kind of the holy grail that we're trying to get to is blinking all this up. So we can just answer a question easily like that.
Rob Collie (00:15:43):
And that really is one of Power BI's top two strengths, as a data tool, relative to its other BI tool competition. Is its ability to splice across those silos, and start to allocate fixed costs that you're measuring in one place. You still have an HR system, right? You're still cutting paychecks. So that cost needs to be allocated. Somehow, across the per test. It's just so many inputs. If you're just saying, "Hey, look, the cost of the test kit... What percentage of the cost of testing is just the test kit." It's probably really tiny, right? There's the facility, all that kind of stuff, right? Silos are everything, aren't they?
Stephanie Bruno (00:16:33):
Yeah. They're painful.
Shannon Lindsay (00:16:34):
And having worked in nonprofits, and also with governments for the last 10 or so years, I think that it's pretty obvious that their progress in new technology is a little bit behind other industries. So what was really neat about implementing Power BI and working with Stephanie was that we were one of the first nonprofits to start to use this technology. We really got our leadership on board, it really grew very fast within the organization. And then we were able to preach the gospel, or I don't know how to say it. But encourage other nonprofits to use this technology as well. So there is a whole little nonprofit community that is interested in using this technology too. And I think that Stephanie had a big hand in that.
Rob Collie (00:17:22):
Is there a water cooler where all the nonprofit people get together and hang out? And how do you connect like that?
Shannon Lindsay (00:17:27):
You know there isn't, really. Part of what's interesting about the nonprofit industry, the part that I've been involved in, is that we're all trying to accomplish the same thing. But at the same time, we're all fighting for the same tiny pot of money. So there's a lot less collaboration than you would imagine. And I didn't really understand the benefit and the value of community until I became a part of this data community and the sequel community and the Power BI community. I didn't realize that people just helped each other and just shared information, I did not know that was a thing. So now I understand. And, I think that's another part of why we do Data Witches and why we run user groups. We want to make sure that other people know these tools are out there, and that they will save you hundreds of hours of time and simplify your life. And just from the analyst perspective, it completely changed my day to day work.
Rob Collie (00:18:26):
You've probably both heard me say this, at least one time, somewhere in some venue, the desire, the compelling, overwhelming need to tell other people about a piece of software. That is very strange. That doesn't happen. Software just sucks, it just wall to wall. So much software, it's just so much of a source of pain. And it's like, a lot of software's only slightly better than not having it. I'm just really cynical about most software, even though that's my industry of origin. It's probably because it's my industry of origin. But this stuff is different. There is almost a compelling, almost moral duty to tell other people about it and to get them introduced to it. It's weird, isn't it? Even just in the way that the two of you describe what you do? I can hear it. I can hear that. This is a moral imperative. We have to share. We can't keep this to ourselves.
Shannon Lindsay (00:19:22):
If I can save one other person from copying and pasting... I mean, the reality is we were supporting 5000 health facilities when I first started. And what we were doing was manually compiling data into Excel sheets. It just sounds like madness, even saying it out loud. Now that I know what's possible. I also used to joke that I used to enter a lot of zeros into spreadsheets. That was my job. Data entry, copying, pasting, entering zeros and none of that is necessary, but I did not know that at the time. And so if I can save someone else that pain, by all means.
Rob Collie (00:19:58):
Yeah. I think that in the course of any career, any sort of office career, and I know that you're not always in the office, right? Sometimes you're out in the field. But in any sort of knowledge worker role, sooner or later, everyone is going to cross paths with Excel. And the majority of people, when they cross paths with Excel, they just bounce right off of it. It's like, "Ooh, gross, I'm out." And that's at least 14 out of 15 people. But there's like one in 15, one in 16, that you get this itch like, "Oh, I just typed all those formula, that those numbers in, I was able to get this plus this, plus this. And I was able to change the input without rewriting the formula on the calculator plus this, plus that. And I get the answer out again." This twitch starts to happen behind your eyes and I go, "I was kind of cool."
Rob Collie (00:20:49):
And next thing you know, it's like, wall to wall VLOOKUP in your life. So it's weird. I think that the reason why certain people, and again, you don't have to have been someone who liked math in high school. And I love this. Because frankly, most of the math we learned in high school isn't useful. It's just most of it isn't all that useful. The thing that draws you to it is the desire to not repeat work. That's the thing that feels good about Excel the first time to say, "Oh, I could really get into this." But then, of course, Excel turns around and betrays you, five minutes later. And it's just nothing but manual work.
Rob Collie (00:21:28):
Even though you're writing formulas and whatever, it's still awful. And so it's really ironic that the crowd that is least able to tolerate tedium, is the crowd that's drawn here. And then Excel turns around, and it just tortures you. And I do think that has a lot to do with the feeling of moral imperative to help others because you know what it feels like. It's not just saving time, it's people are literally suffering.
Shannon Lindsay (00:21:58):
Yeah, if we're spending all those hours compiling data, when we could be analyzing is this having an impact? Is this saving lives? It's a no brainer.
Rob Collie (00:22:08):
Yeah, when you start to think of the end result in particular, right? When you're working in the for profit space, you don't typically think that way. It's a little harder to get sort of emotionally ramped up about some huge corporation saving more money. But still, the people that you're working with at that company, is more than enough to keep you charged up. It's their success. It's their life getting better.
Stephanie Bruno (00:22:32):
So one of the things that Shannon and I did together at EGPAF with our colleague, [Elisa Lei Laurie 00:22:39], because we wanted to share more. Actually, I should back up and mentioned, when we say we work at this nonprofit, people get the impression that, oh, it's small, just a few do gooders trying to do their best. But we're actually pretty big. I think we have a staff of close to 4000 throughout the world, honestly. Most of whom are in Africa. Our HQ staff in DC is maybe around 150. But so mostly everybody that we work with, is in Africa. Getting all of these people that we work with to start using a new tool, Power BI instead of Excel, it was a lot harder than I expected. But like you said, we knew that we would save people so much time, if we did.
Stephanie Bruno (00:23:21):
I remember one time Shannon and I were on a trip together in Tanzania. And I was in the office trying to see how their data systems work together. And I looked up, and I just looked at this sea of people on computers out in a room. And my jaw dropped because I realized, "Oh my gosh, they're all just doing copy and paste." That's what I'm seeing here. It's like 50 people doing copy and paste. We have to do better with this. So we really wanted to not be the only few people building Power BI data models and reports for people. We knew that if this is going to work, we have to get a lot of people doing it. So we started an internal user group at EGPAF. We started it three years ago. And we have quarterly meetings, we use Teams and people are sharing resources. And it's people from our different country offices helping each other, which is amazing.
Stephanie Bruno (00:24:14):
We've had some celebrity guests, I think, come on for us. We had Patrick LeBlanc come on, probably [Comassani 00:24:21] came on and presented. And so it's just been this great thing. It's really been successful. You know, we can check out the metrics in Power BI to see who's building reports and who's getting the most usage. And it turns out, it's actually not our DC office anymore. It's our Malawi office has the most reports being used and built. So this is kind of been the best thing for us. Is this sharing with other people and getting other people to do the work and build reports and get excited about it. Yeah, so that's the sharing that's really been the most impactful. I think has been this internal group and just knowing all of our colleagues in 12 countries in Africa are now Power BI experts.
Rob Collie (00:25:03):
That's great. Do you see the same sort of like ratio of author and consumer that I'm talking about. That 1 out of 16? Not everyone is going to, of those 4000 employees, for instance. Let's say if all of them were using it, most of them would be using it, consuming reports and dashboards that have been built for them. Maybe interacting with them filtering, drilling down, whatever, but I wouldn't expect that everyone is data modeling. It's not really even a question about the nonprofit space. It's just more like, it's your experience with the other offices. Because my experience with all this is overwhelmingly, USA based. I would say that this discovery of 1 in 16. And there's actually a couple of different ways that we've come to that number that both agree actually that's about 1 in 16.
Rob Collie (00:25:51):
I just wonder if in a different country, it's the same. Are you minting authors at a greater or-
Stephanie Bruno (00:26:00):
No.
Rob Collie (00:26:00):
... faster pace?
Stephanie Bruno (00:26:01):
I think it's the same. We've done a few trainings in Africa. Shannon did a couple. I did a couple. We partnered with Microsoft, actually, some of the people from the CAT team came and did trainings for our office. Casper, I know you guys are-
Rob Collie (00:26:15):
Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Bruno (00:26:16):
... good friends. Casper and Patrick, and then Maggie Sparkman from the documentation team. They all came and they did these trainings. And it was fantastic. And I would say I think probably the countries, maybe had more people sign up for the trainings and people who were actually ready to do it.
Rob Collie (00:26:33):
It's exciting.
Stephanie Bruno (00:26:34):
Yeah, it's exciting. But I do think that's just how it goes. And then people come to these trainings. And not everybody that comes to it is going to become a data modeler. But you're going to find some people that maybe you didn't expect, that really grab on and just love it.
Rob Collie (00:26:49):
Yeah, I think that suffering that we're talking about, is sort of a crucial ingredient in deciding whether or not it's going to take with you. The same person, the same brain is a lot less interested or even understand the value of adopting these tools until they've worked in the spreadsheets sweatshop, for a couple months minimum. Even people who came to those classes that you're talking about, some of them it didn't take with them. But some of them, those people that didn't take with, will now go off and not use them. For some reason, their job takes a turn, and now they're using Excel all the time.
Rob Collie (00:27:33):
And they're getting ground down. And then the next time you run that class, someone that you remember being checked out will be like, "Oh, my God." You'll see the spark, you'll see the light bulb go on. I've actually had that happen.
Stephanie Bruno (00:27:48):
You've had someone come more than once?
Rob Collie (00:27:51):
I did a training one time for a group, it was a company. Here, there's sort of two parts of story. One part is, I did go back one year later and train the same people on the same things, which is really silly, right? And this is where I learned a very important principle, that when you first learn this stuff, you have to put it into use almost immediately. Not almost immediately, you better put it into use immediately. And by the time, either of you showed up in any of my classes, I'm sure I was already saying this. You spend a couple days learning this stuff with us. You can't go back to work and do it the old way. Until you get caught up. That's a very seductive trap that you can fall into. And that's what this crew did.
Rob Collie (00:28:36):
They spent like three or four days with me. And then of course, their job piled up during those three or four days. They weren't doing their job, they were already way behind. And so they got further behind. And so the next week of work, they just threw themselves back into the old way. Just try to dig out. Mistake, it was over. Just get becomes less and less fresh. And there's never a good time. And so a year later now they were really in trouble. And they brought me back. And that's how I learned the lesson to tell everybody like no, on Monday, you're not allowed to do it the old way. But there have been someone assigned to this class. We call them hostages. We teach a class for a company. A manager will tell everyone that they have to be there. Some people are excited about it, most people aren't.
Rob Collie (00:29:22):
There was a woman in the room who could not have been more disinterested. I just had to tell. A year later the thing is she was new in that job. She'd never had to do the the Excel analyst job like she did the equivalent of sitting in the back filing her nails. It was so hard to take as the teacher. But the next time I came back she was on the front row asking the absolute best questions. She parlayed that into a, she's a full time BI developer professional now. And if I had based my impression on her on what she showed me on that first time, I would have thought she was zero.
Rob Collie (00:30:04):
It's so cool. I love that. So yeah. Sooner or later, you'll have a similar experience, I think. You'll find someone that you wouldn't have bet on but suddenly they light up.
Shannon Lindsay (00:30:14):
I think that's been part of the real, I don't know, joy of being a part of building something from the ground up at EGPAF, we saw the most unexpected people become the champions of the new technology. And I can't say this for the whole world. But in the countries that we worked in, I'm saying worked past tense, I do not work there anymore. But in the countries that we worked in, a lot of the monitoring and evaluation teams and the finance teams were predominantly men. And a lot of our shining stars and people who became the power users or the people who spoke up and presented at our user group, were women, who were often overlooked. And they took this technology, and they ran with it. And now they run those departments. I mean, so not only is it making their day to day life easier, but it's really giving them some visibility in the organization. It's changed a lot of people's careers, myself included.
Rob Collie (00:31:12):
Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up. Because this is one of my favorite things. And when I bring it up, I run the risk of somehow looking like the bad guy, even though everything in my heart is 100% good about this, I know what you're talking about. I went to computer science school, I grew up in the Math Science World. And I know what the finance world looks like. Oh, my gosh, these things couldn't be more male dominated in terms of numbers of people. I had one or two women in my computer science classes with me. Stephanie was there. I see the same thing. We even talked about this with Wayne Winston, when he was on the show. We're sort of coming around to this idea that the analytical half of our brain. This is a broad oversimplification, but the analytical curious parts of our brain is probably the more female part of our brain.
Rob Collie (00:32:06):
The stuff that, I don't know, calculus. There's something that's super duper abstract about calculus that I often wonder. As an older person now, I often wonder, why is it we're sitting around trying to encourage more girls to study calculus? Because I think calculus sucks. Girls might have it right staying away from calculus. I mean, it's like, why is calculus considered such a an objectively good thing that everyone should be doing? We're putting it on a pedestal.
Stephanie Bruno (00:32:39):
Because it's awesome.
Rob Collie (00:32:40):
Oh, really? You still think calculus is awesome?
Stephanie Bruno (00:32:43):
I do. I do think calculus is awesome.
Rob Collie (00:32:47):
All right, give us your bullet point defense of why calculus is awesome. Keep it in mind, I went to the Final Four in Florida state competition for calculus. I mean, I was on a team that went to the Final Four. I was the weak link on that team. We would have placed first without me. So I've definitely been up to my eyeballs in calculus before. And I'm still on the calculus side.
Stephanie Bruno (00:33:10):
So I mean, why do you think it's, that useful or unfun?
Rob Collie (00:33:17):
Well, it definitely gets to the point where it's unfun. By the time I got to differential equations in college, I was like, "Oh, cool." I want out of this.
Stephanie Bruno (00:33:29):
Rob, that was my favorite class in college.
Rob Collie (00:33:31):
Was it? Ah, God.
Stephanie Bruno (00:33:33):
But you know what I do remember, there was a guy in my math classes, and he was just so smug all the time about how he was the best one in our math group. And there was something about that year that I took differential equations, I think I broke up with some boyfriend and I was down. And I was like, "You know what, this year, I'm going to beat that guy and differential equations." And I did, and it was one of the most satisfying feelings. And it was funny, it actually became known in our class. And I even had people rooting for me, "Come on Steph, you could beat him."
Stephanie Bruno (00:34:12):
So I've really warm feelings compared to [crosstalk 00:34:15] not based on anything altruistic in any way.
Rob Collie (00:34:19):
Just vanquishing-
Stephanie Bruno (00:34:21):
Just vanquishing.
Rob Collie (00:34:22):
... of someone who had it coming.
Stephanie Bruno (00:34:23):
That smug guy.
Rob Collie (00:34:25):
Good come upings.
Stephanie Bruno (00:34:26):
That's right. So as a result, I got to an A in differential equations. It turns out, I actually learned something with my competitive motivation there. So maybe I just have positive feelings about calculus or differential equations.
Rob Collie (00:34:41):
So I have something similar with me, and that the scouting report on me going into high school amongst my family was, "Yeah, bright kid, but no ambition. Not interested in anything. Never applies himself." I was still getting decent grades. I wasn't the troublemaker. I was a really good boy. I just was not into things. I got to a C in history one year in middle school. It was just like, then I ran into a guy that was sort of, my twin, my mirror image essentially. And a lot of ways, we grew into the same things. It really mess with my sense of identity.
Rob Collie (00:35:18):
And in ninth grade, it became, I think it was both of our missions for a while. Just nothing short of total character assassination of the kid, was going to be acceptable. And we were friends, and we were trying to end each other academically. That powered me. Suddenly, I was really driven, really ambitious. And it was just like, destroy. I carried that for four years. And for me, it's almost a spirit of atoning. I threw myself for so long into something so relatively arbitrary and meaningless in terms of human life, and made it a defining trait. I think I probably took it a lot farther in terms of, my own self identity, than what you were in that diff EQ class, right? That was a maybe like a one semester one class thing for you. That was a lifestyle for me. I think I need to live three lifetimes to sort of atone for the bad things I did to people close to me.
Stephanie Bruno (00:36:16):
I think its time to forgive yourself, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:36:20):
Maybe.
Stephanie Bruno (00:36:23):
Yeah. I think it's been long enough, you can probably let it go. And who knows, think of all the good things that came from that. That's another way to look at it.
Rob Collie (00:36:31):
Yeah. Got me to Microsoft, where I proceeded to not use a single thing that I ever learned in college, or in high school, none of it was relevant.
Stephanie Bruno (00:36:42):
I get it. I wanted, I was thinking about what you were just saying about this competition feeling. And the same thing with that smug guy in my class. But it did remind me that I think part of the reason that I did go into math and physics and all of that stuff was it was kind of just to prove something. To prove that I could do it. I even had a physics professor in college suggest, "I don't know, if you want to go to grad school in physics, you you might want to just find a nice guy and get married. That might be easier." Like really? You're my physics professor.
Rob Collie (00:37:19):
You said that out loud.
Stephanie Bruno (00:37:19):
Yeah. He said that out loud to me. I mean, I wasn't exactly a stellar physics student. Not like diff eq. But that's the kind of thing that pushed me I think, huge into going in this direction. It was just feeling like underestimated. And wanting to prove that I could do it. Which isn't, again, great motivation. But it got me here. So I'm happy to be where I am.
Rob Collie (00:37:43):
When was the last time you use the differential equation?
Stephanie Bruno (00:37:45):
Okay, I haven't in a long time. But calculus, I did, because I went back to school, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:37:52):
Oh, so you used calculus again?
Stephanie Bruno (00:37:55):
I did.
Rob Collie (00:37:56):
At school?
Stephanie Bruno (00:37:58):
At school.
Rob Collie (00:37:59):
You used it at school? Yes. You take calculus so that you can take more calculus? Okay.
Stephanie Bruno (00:38:06):
Okay. So you are mean, still, I guess.
Rob Collie (00:38:07):
I am a little bit mean. I just remember the kids that were sitting there, while I was the person you're describing in your Diff Eq class, that was me in high school. Except no one ever vanquished me. I mean, I did lose in certain classes, but then I had beat that same person in another class. And that was all I needed to tell myself, "I'm still better." But like those kids that were sitting next to me going, "When are we ever going to use this?" And I would make just viciously make fun of them. It says, "You're just saying that because you can't do it." They were right. I'm never going to use this stuff. I mean, some people do, if you're building bridges, you're gonna be doing some calculus. Even there, I sneak in and go, now you're probably going to be using modeling software that will just take care of the calculus for you. But, I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:39:02):
It'd be like if they kept teaching slide rulers in a way. Tech moves on, calculus is a little bit commoditize now, unless you are a physics researcher. There are will huntings running around doing that kind of stuff on a chalkboard. Today, it's just that most of us aren't doing that.
Stephanie Bruno (00:39:19):
Well and machine learning.
Rob Collie (00:39:20):
Yeah. So statistics, linear algebra and all this, I had no idea which of those things were actually going to be relevant. There were some things that I was taking back then that I kind of wish I'd either paid more attention or, more importantly retained longer. Because I couldn't look someone in the eye today and say I was a data scientist. That's not a title that would hold up to scrutiny. And if I were to go back to school, it would be to do stuff like that. If either of you considered that route, have you pursued it?
Shannon Lindsay (00:39:52):
Well, speaking of statistics, jumping back, just a little bit, EGPAF as an organization, is a research organization as well. And so they have statisticians and bio statisticians on staff, something that I think was really neat for me to see and be a part of was while Stephanie was doing her graduate work. We got to take some of the manual, redo the stats, every single time new data comes in, we got to take some of those processes, and put them into Power BI. And it was really cool to see. So Steph, do you want to talk about any of the stats stuff that you did in Power BI?
Stephanie Bruno (00:40:29):
The one I was thinking of that you were talking about with grad school was when we tried to work on a machine learning project together for one of my classes. I dragged Shannon in because, A, she's brilliant, and B, she's really the expert on the data that I was working on. The project was, I was trying to develop an algorithm to help us predict which patients were going to be likely to be lost to follow up. What that means is, HIV positive people need to take medication regularly, it's critical. If they don't, then they can infect other people, they get really sick, it's really important. They can also, I think start to be resistant to their drugs if they don't take them regularly. So making sure people come in every month and get their drugs every month is just critical. So what we needed to do was try to find... We were looking at a patient level database, which is actually hard to find in the work that we do. But we're looking at that and we were trying to find predictors of people who maybe we're going to be likely than not come back.
Stephanie Bruno (00:41:33):
And so we used our for it, we use power query for it, we found that most of the data was just in bad shape. So the biggest part of that project, which was for a machine learning class, didn't turn out to be the algorithm, it turned out to be the data cleaning. And I would actually say that was my biggest complaint with grad school and analytics was that, all of the datasets that they had us work on were clean. They were just perfect. And so I remember feeling like I was the oldest person there, first of all. And feeling like the young people there were just not really getting to see what real world data was like. And that they weren't getting to see that what, okay, when they go out and they get their job. They're gonna have to spend 90% of their time dealing with this garbage data. That's ultimately what we had to do. So it was it was really cool. It was exciting.
Stephanie Bruno (00:42:26):
But at the end of the day, it didn't turn out to actually be a very beneficial project. Because the data was so bad, there wasn't really anything that we can rely on. So as much as I wanted to do all the stats, and machine learning and exciting stuff, 90% of that project was janitorial.
Shannon Lindsay (00:42:43):
Well. And speaking of janitorial, I'm going back now to Power BI. But I think one of the bigger impacts that we've seen with Power BI and correct me if I'm wrong here Steph, just simply getting more eyes on the data made a world of difference for the data quality. In the donor environment, they require more data than you could ever imagine at such granular levels. And the data is required in a really rapid turnaround period. And it's oftentimes collected in less than ideal systems. Most of the time, it starts on paper. So that's where we're coming from. But just getting people to look at the data and put their eyes on it and then say, oh, no, that couldn't possibly be true. There's no way we only saw men at this clinic or, whatever. But I think that the trajectory of Power BI at the organization was really amplified by the fact that people saw the problems with the data.
Rob Collie (00:43:40):
This is a universal, almost principle, the saying the buck stops here, it stops at analytics. That's when all of the sins of the organization, all of the misexecution, all of the sloppiness, all of that stuff just comes home to roost, on your analytics. In the for profit world, and I'm sure this is really probably the same thing in the nonprofit world. But in the for profit world, if there's some sort of failure or organizational failure, or shortcoming that interrupts the flow of money that will get noticed and taken care of. For sure. Now, it can interrupt a small percentage of the money, and no one will notice. That's weird. There's a lot of things like that going on. But if 100% of the money in a particular segment stops flowing somewhere, someone's going to complain because that's someone's income. Someone is going to speak up in their own self interest. They're going to notice when their money doesn't come in. Every other problem that the organization experiences, the vast majority of them never get addressed.
Rob Collie (00:44:50):
And then you get to analytics. And that's when all of that becomes apparent. And it's oftentimes difficult to get people to care about the data quality, even. In some cases, it's like, people just are just so flabbergasted like, "Oh my God, I can't believe that that's wrong." And they just want to go make it right. And you're lucky in those cases. But in other cases, they're just like, "Nah, we really can't be bothered to do a better job of maintaining the product catalog are. Make sure things are categorized properly. I'm not paid to do that." Yes, you are. But that's not what they're actually thinking. It's hard to push data quality back upstream to where it came from. But you absolutely notice it, it does. It just jumps off the page, especially with Power BI, for better and worse.
Shannon Lindsay (00:45:37):
I think where we were really lucky. And where a lot of people that work with data about people is, those numbers represent human lives. And if we miss a person that we know, is positive, and they need to be on treatment, but we miss them because of a transcription error, or because of the piece of paper didn't make it from the facility all the way to the head office. I mean, that's almost unforgivable. I know, it's not because we're human, and we all make mistakes, but it raises the stakes for sure.
Rob Collie (00:46:05):
Well, that does it. We're gonna completely refocus all of our client work on the nonprofit space. Especially where people's lives are at risk, because they'll be the only time we can get proper traction on data quality.
Stephanie Bruno (00:46:18):
Maybe you'd like to come help us with those silo problems we have, Rob?
Rob Collie (00:46:22):
Yeah. I don't think you want me doing it. Turns out that one of the things I like to say, because it's the truth, and it's awesome is that, everyone that works at our company is better at this stuff than I ever was. I'm quite a bit off peak, even with my own capabilities. I like to think that I did my part sort of getting some of this going, not just the company, but the awareness of these tools. And as I started to discover all these people coming at me that were saying, "Hey, I got into this because of your book or whatever." And then I start looking at what they're doing. I'm like, "Well, you're so much better than I am." That was actually really gratifying, whereas high school me would have been mortified. I don't want to let this linger. Earlier, you said maybe you are still a little bit mean, come on. I'm so nice. I just like having fun, though. So what about the broader power platform? You getting into that at all, not just Power BI?
Shannon Lindsay (00:47:16):
I can speak to this. A couple years ago, maybe three years ago, when Power Apps was brand new, I was working on a global project at EGPAF. And I had just been hired on to Stephanie's team. So I came from this analyst role I had been brought into the informatics team, I was responsible for collecting data in nine different countries, on when every single patient comes into the clinic, they have to be screened for tuberculosis. Particularly kids are left behind in TB screening and so we needed to make sure that every single kid was screened. So when I came onto the project, I was told, okay, we're going to put these little wooden boxes in every single facility, and every kid's going to have a form. And we're going to drop those forms into the boxes. And then once a week, somebody is going to come pick them up, and then someone's going to enter them in aggregate into Excel. So they're going to count up how many girls, how many boys, whatever. Put it in Excel, and then we're going to do this, whole Excel based reporting.
Shannon Lindsay (00:48:16):
And I knew enough by then that Power Apps existed. I knew enough by them that that was what we were going to use. And I think the main thing I learned from working with Stephanie, and just from learning about data in general, is that Excel is not a data collection tool. It should never be used that way. It is trash. Even when you're doing it for good things, obviously. But so I like to say that I took away their toys, and I made them use a Power App. And rather than letting them enter the data, in aggregate, I required that the data was entered at the patient level for just to make sure that we had the right data. And as far as I know, that Power App is still being used globally. And it was a huge success. So it was a Power App that was feeding into a, don't cringe when I say this, but it was feeding into a SharePoint list. And then that SharePoint list was populated in Power BI. I know it's like, undergone some iterations since then. But I really, by doing that project I got on board with the Power platform.
Shannon Lindsay (00:49:15):
I can say that at the time, Power Apps was really incredibly difficult for me to learn. I don't have any sort of a background as a developer, I had no clue what I was doing. It took me six months to build the simplest app, but I did it and it's being used and it's in the rearview now. I believe that there is a lot of room for Power Apps and Power Automate. But I haven't had any experience with it since then. Steph, are you guys doing any new projects with Power Apps and Power Automate?
Stephanie Bruno (00:49:49):
Yes, we are. And I can confirm that your Power App is still in use indeed. But I struggle with it. I love the rest of the Power platform but, A, I guess I struggle with how Power BI fits into it? I guess from a community perspective, it's interesting because it's still very much the Power BI community and the Power Apps and Flow communities. They don't have a lot of overlap, which I think is interesting. I don't think like, there's a lot of people that are really in both. We went to one of those hackathons at the, let's not call it the Data Insight Summit anymore-
Shannon Lindsay (00:50:25):
Business Applications Summit.
Stephanie Bruno (00:50:27):
That's right. And we were so excited. We're like, "Oh, good, we're going to work with all the Power BI, Power Apps and Flow people. And we were like, the only Power BI people there, and everybody else was Power Apps. I think there's some work to do to kind of bridge those communities together better, first of all. And then second of all, I want to love Power Apps, but I struggle with the licensing with it a lot. I think how things went with Power BI how they made it free for a long time. I think a lot of people still do complain about Power BI pricing, especially with premium. But now that there's per user premium, blah, blah, blah. But because we're nonprofit, we get a really good discount. So we actually jumped on board with premium immediately. And everything just was seamless and it went along really well. But the Power Apps licensing, I still can't wrap my head around. So I did push Power Apps pretty hard at first. But now I'm pulling back a little bit because I'm worried about how much it's going to cost us.
Rob Collie (00:51:24):
Do you not get the same nonprofit awesome discount?
Stephanie Bruno (00:51:28):
Well we do, but I haven't seen an equivalent of the Power BI premium. Because, for instance, we have a lot of data collectors. So if we want to build a Power App and have 1000 data collectors using it, no way.
Rob Collie (00:51:43):
Yeah.
Stephanie Bruno (00:51:43):
We have to do something way cheaper than that.
Rob Collie (00:51:46):
Yeah, that makes sense for a 1000 person organization. Without an all you can eat premium version for something, that could be really difficult. Hey, Microsoft, you're, we'll making it like a dramatic joke, why are you killing people? We need to change this licensing model pronto. We're talking about human lives here. It's not just profitability anymore.
Stephanie Bruno (00:52:13):
Yeah, I know, I feel like a traitor saying this about it, because I do want to love it. And I want us to use it. But I'm finding that bit difficult.
Rob Collie (00:52:22):
Well, I often say that Microsoft makes like the best software, they're really good at it. But they're mediocre at best at every other thing. Pricing, marketing, documentation, everything. Everything is... But they make the best software, they really do. So the Power Apps experience. It's build as no code or low code. But we get into it, and it's like, oh, this is code. This is development. I can imagine Power Automate, having a lot of overlap, potential overlap with the Power BI crowd. Because hey, part of it is M part of it is Power Query. It's, "Hey, great. That's half of our story." Power Apps is a different animal. And so it doesn't surprise me, Shannon. I was going to ask you, before you volunteer. I was going to ask you, okay, so you're talking about it. And from the we point of view. We had a Power App, and we did this and I was like, "Okay, so who... " I was going to ask you who built this thing? So we get to this next question, right? And you said it was you and it took you six months to get far, it gets hard.
Rob Collie (00:53:22):
It's not the same as Power BI. It's not just a third technology. It's like a separate universe next door. So you said you took it about six months to learn enough to build this app. That's still in progress, right? So that's not, we wouldn't call that rapid app development, right? Six months sounds like a normal app development timeline. But if you had to go back and build a very similar app today, how much faster do you think it would be?
Shannon Lindsay (00:53:49):
Significantly. I think the main reason for that is the amount of time that has passed and the community that has formed around Power Apps, the community is pretty robust now. I think at the time, I did have help from the community. So I did not build that thing all by myself. So it took six months with help. But I think that they have made a lot more of the connectors native now. And there's a lot more stuff that Power Apps can do that it could not do before. I remember I had the hardest time with the right back and getting things to be properly stored in the collections and then right back to the SharePoint list. And it was probably just because I was doing it wrong. But there wasn't enough information out there about, step by step tutorials on how to do things.
Shannon Lindsay (00:54:38):
At the time, there was the Power App in a day training. I don't want to call it that. The day long thing that existed and it was cool. You built this whole app where you could pick things you wanted to buy in a day and it was really awesome. But then, just like working with clean data versus dirty data. You go into the wild and you try to put it in your own environment. And it was really hard.
Rob Collie (00:54:59):
There's a one of our episodes of this podcast is with a guy named Kevin Overstreet. Sooner or later, if you're going to be doing Power App stuff, you need to meet this guy. He got into Power BI came to one of our classes, one of my classes many years ago. But then with Power Apps, boys he found his calling. He's almost disposed of Power BI. Like, I'm so over that. I was a Power App person all along, I just didn't know it. And I think it has a lot, I'm not going to say potential. I'm going to say it's got a lot of value. It's in two places. Number one, you were giving an example of upstream from Power BI. It's part of the collection process. Yes, I don't have any problem at all with SharePoint being the place where the data was stored. I'm really the opposite of snobbish with this stuff.
Rob Collie (00:55:53):
In fact, even if you were like putting it into Excel Online, I wouldn't have a problem with that either. Because really, the problem with Excel is data collection is validation and things like that, that the Power App will enforce for you. And I know that the query speed against an Excel spreadsheet isn't so great, but surely not super great against SharePoint either. So it's like six or one half dozen or another. But there's also downstream from Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:56:20):
And I think there's every bit as much value in potential there as there is upstream. And this is going to be sort of almost one of our companies messaging and marketing focuses next year, is that BI doesn't make a bit of difference until someone takes an action, that's a better action than they did the day before. I can inform you to death, and actually not make a difference. If you've been in one of my classes, I even talked about this a little bit, depending on how much time we had. It's all about the action. So when you think about it that way, this has been dawning on me over the last six months. It's like, why does the dashboard, the report, why does it get to take a total pass? It just gets to give up, when it's time to actually make an improvement. You can just look at the report and go the reports just looking at you smugly saying, "It's not my problem. It's your problem."
Rob Collie (00:57:16):
Really simple example, trivial. And I use the words dashboard and report interchangeably. I don't mean Power BI, capital D, dashboard. Like to me a dashboard is a report, is a dashboard, the same thing. If I'm looking at a dashboard, and I see some, I don't know, a customer, or a prospect, someone who's thinking about hiring us. And I want to change their status, I want to say we have this person marked as, probably not going to do business with us. But then I look at it and I go, "That's wrong." This is a valuable person that we need to be spending more time with. Well, the dashboard could say, "Okay, well, that person's name Jimmy Smith, go get them. Have fun." But it doesn't take much effort to, in that table visual or whatever, to put together a URL field, that is a link to Salesforce or CRM or whatever that links to that person's record.
Rob Collie (00:58:13):
Maybe it doesn't like change that person's record. But it takes you there. It knows who this person is, right? The other example I'm always using, and it's just doesn't really apply, maybe it does to EGPAF. If you notice on a report that warehouse six is low on product or low on test kits or something and they're going to run out before you expect it. Imagine having buttons or something in that report that allows you to go transfer some inventory from warehouse five, or order more of that particular product from your supplier with a rush order on it or something like that. There could be a Power App, could be, it's just not a universal thing. It can't be everywhere, because you can't anticipate what every action is going to be. But why not embed a Power App in your dashboard or elements like that, for directly taking action?
Shannon Lindsay (00:59:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). We actually did some of that with a Power App inside of a report.
Rob Collie (00:59:10):
Cool.
Shannon Lindsay (00:59:10):
And this was the health facilities change their names all the time, even though it's the same facility. And people get upset if things aren't exactly correct. And then of course, we need a master list to be able to understand what's what. So at the start of that previous project that I was talking about where we're collecting data with Power Apps, we also put a Power App right inside of a report where people could confirm that things were correct. If they weren't correct, they could make changes and then that all wrote back to the database. So we have done a little bit of that, but probably not as much as we should have.
Rob Collie (00:59:44):
Well, no one does. We always judge our own efforts more harshly than we would if we could sort of see the whole universe. At the beginning of this conversation, I forget, someone said the nonprofit space was slower to take this stuff up than others. I'm like, no. I mean, I am shocked. It's been more than 10 years now, literally, more than 10 years since I realized that this platform... Which didn't even really exist under the current name. Power BI wasn't a thing. All we had was Power Pivot. We didn't even have Power Query yet. More than 10 years ago, I was like, "Oh, my God, this is going to change everything."
Rob Collie (01:00:25):
And it's going to happen overnight. It's just so obvious. Everyone's just going to be like hoovering it up. It's like two years from now, everything's going to be different. No, still pretty early. 10 years later, you say like, "No, we probably didn't do enough of that." Oh, that's a good mentality. That's a good mindset, we can always do better. I think that Microsoft sort of organizing these technologies together in the same division, and renaming the Insight Summit to be Business Applications. It's like they were a few years early on it, or maybe I'm just really saying I'm just a few years slow on realizing what we're really doing. But like, it's the action loop. It's the improvement loop. And so there's upstream collecting, like we talked about the data collectors. The tuberculosis screens, whatever. And then there's the downstream, actually taking action. So we've got these sort of two frontiers upstream and downstream from Power BI. With Power BI still in the middle.
Rob Collie (01:01:24):
I think it's a very promising time. We're not even dead ending or pigeonholing, as professionals in this space. Stephanie, you mentioned that you went back to grad school for a while. What was it that you studied? And when was that?
Stephanie Bruno (01:01:39):
I went back in 2016. And I just graduated last year. So that was a relief. It was a lot more work than I expected. I went back and I got an MSIT with a focus on business intelligence and data analytics.
Rob Collie (01:01:55):
Awesome. Okay, so you got a master's? Right. That's what the M means.
Stephanie Bruno (01:01:59):
Correct.
Rob Collie (01:02:00):
Okay. So what are sort of the highs and lows of the things you took out? Because and I'm asking this, even from a personal perspective. I'm not doing this to set you up for the, and how much have you used it? I'll probably do that, too. But every now and then, I guess, it's funny, that'd be like driving around somewhere. And I'll see a billboard for like a Master's of Data Science. And I'm like, I could try that. Maybe that would be a good thing for me to do, even just for awareness sake. What is it that I'm missing? But I'm also at the same time, skeptical of it, because I'm sure that two thirds of what some academic would be trying to tell me would be like, "Oh, come on the world doesn't work that way." You mentioned at least a little bit of that.
Stephanie Bruno (01:02:40):
Yeah. You mean with the clean data?
Rob Collie (01:02:43):
Yeah. There's just something funny about listening to someone. And maybe this isn't the way the professors are. But some of them I'm sure are this way they live their whole lives in an ivory tower. Then telling a citizen of the world what the world is like, when they've never been there. I would have a real problem with that mismatch of mindset, I think, but what were the most valuable things that you've taken out of that program?
Stephanie Bruno (01:03:07):
It was valuable. And I'm really glad I did it. It was hard. I didn't plan on doing it, honestly. I just, I applied, because the application was free. And I thought, I'll never get in. Because it was Carnegie Mellon University. But it was free. And I think I was having a bad day. So I was like, "I need a little boost, if I get in, that'll be great". But it's also going to be way too expensive. So this is never going to be a thing I actually do. And I was with Shannon, when I actually submitted the application. It was on that same trip to Tanzania. But then I got in. And not only did I get in, but they gave me a huge scholarship. It was a combo women in tech and nonprofit scholarship.
Stephanie Bruno (01:03:51):
So it turned out I hardly had to pay anything for it, which was a real shocker. So when I saw that, I was like, "Oh, boy, I guess this means I am actually going to grad school now." So this was not my plan, but I'm doing it. I guess you know, that's life, right? It's a roundabout way of the way things happen.
Rob Collie (01:04:09):
Well, it does sound like having a bad day is a really important driving force in your life, right [crosstalk 01:04:14]?
Stephanie Bruno (01:04:14):
Apparently.
Rob Collie (01:04:16):
The diff eq guy he had no idea what was about to hit him. You just know just caught me on the wrong day. I'm going to [crosstalk 01:04:23] out-
Stephanie Bruno (01:04:22):
I really have to examine my motivations for why I do the things I do.
Rob Collie (01:04:28):
Just be careful not to have too many bad days. You'll end up taking on too much. Four years of grad school after one bad day. That's a big commitment.
Stephanie Bruno (01:04:36):
Oh, yeah. My husband keeps saying he's afraid I'm going to have a bad day and go try to get a PhD next. But no, that's not happening.
Rob Collie (01:04:44):
Four years is a long time even part time.
Stephanie Bruno (01:04:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:04:46):
Well, Carnegie Mellon is in Pittsburgh, right?
Stephanie Bruno (01:04:49):
That's why I did it. Yep, that's where I live.
Rob Collie (01:04:52):
It wasn't a correspondence learning.
Stephanie Bruno (01:04:55):
Yeah, they actually do have it. You can do it fully online or you can do it fully in person or you can do a combo. So I opted to do a combo because I wanted to see what it's like to be a student again, that'll be so cool. But it actually, the in person classes, it really didn't turn out to be what I expected. I thought I'll meet some more people that are also data nerds. But outside of the Microsoft ecosystem, which is one of the things I did get out of it was that I wanted to be exposed to non Microsoft tools. And just data in general, not Microsoft data tools. So that is something I got out of it.
Stephanie Bruno (01:05:34):
But it turned out, it was pretty intense. And so the kids that were there full time, they had already sort of formed their little study groups and their friendships. And so it wasn't really easy to get to know people and the occasional in person classes that I went to. So that was a bit of a disappointment. I thought there was going to be this whole new community, I'd be a part of in addition to the Power BI community, but that didn't happen so much. So that was something I didn't get out of it that I hoped to get out of it.
Rob Collie (01:06:04):
If I went back like those people would all be half my age.
Stephanie Bruno (01:06:07):
Oh, yeah, that's exactly what they were.
Rob Collie (01:06:09):
Just crazy, right?
Stephanie Bruno (01:06:10):
I'm pretty sure I could have been their mom. And that was weird. And I was definitely older than some of my teachers, too. That was also weird.
Rob Collie (01:06:18):
Yeah. I would be too, wouldn't I? Don't even think about that.
Stephanie Bruno (01:06:23):
It's true. And I took one class, the one that Shannon and I worked on that project for with the loss to follow up people. And the teacher was so young Shannon, LinkedIn stalked him for me. Because I didn't want him to see that I was LinkedIn stalking him, you know. So Shannon did it for me. And we saw that he was like, I don't know, 24, 25. So we refer to him as baby duck after that.
Rob Collie (01:06:47):
That's great.
Stephanie Bruno (01:06:51):
Man, that was weird. But he was brilliant, and it was a really hard class. But I did get a lot out of it. And that was actually the one class where he focused on dirty data. And what do you do with missing data? And what are all your options for how you can deal with it. It was really good. I think it is fair to say that I'm probably not using a lot of what I learned, which is a disappointment. But I would still do it again. And it was worth it. And I learned a lot. And I was exposed to a lot more ideas and methods that I'm not using. But it was good to learn. And I do think it, it has helped me with how I look at things, and maybe how I attack problems.
Rob Collie (01:07:33):
It's like the question, I asked Shannon, six months to build the Power App, and how long would it take you today to do something similar? It might be that the reason why you're not using so many of those techniques, or whatever that you learned is that you're just not being hit with a necessity for it.
Stephanie Bruno (01:07:50):
I think that's exactly true.
Rob Collie (01:07:53):
The model where you're talking about the machine learning project that you attempted, that is exactly the customer attrition problem that like every business in the world is like, we've got a good regular customer, when are they starting to show us the warning signs that they're about to defect?
Stephanie Bruno (01:08:13):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:08:13):
I know, it's a different real world problem. But as far as the machine learning, it's the same thing but you're feeding it different factors. I would expect that you'd run into something like that, again, pretty quickly. That would be something that you would cross paths with, again, pretty soon, if you haven't already.
Stephanie Bruno (01:08:31):
Yeah, I hope so. But my job is, it's not exactly play with all the cool new toys and try all these exciting new methods. It's really deal with this data and make some, help us make sense of it and help us make good decisions with it. So-
Rob Collie (01:08:48):
A little too much humanity in there, not enough room for machine learning.
Stephanie Bruno (01:08:52):
I think there is. It's just to get to that point, we have a lot of hurdles to overcome first.
Rob Collie (01:08:59):
That's something that you do discover pretty quickly about machine learning is that the same data sources that might be okay, for aggregate analysis. The things that Power BI is particularly really good at, what's our percentage turnover, right? Or whatever, that same data set might not power a machine learning model well, at all.
Rob Collie (01:09:19):
Shannon, that thing you were talking about with the where they were gonna tally it and lose all the individuality. Hey, maybe that would have still been fine for certain kinds of aggregate analysis. But it would have completely precluded any possibility of machine learning in the future. It's like what would you do with it? It's gone. All the variation is gone. All the richness is gone when you collaborate together like that.
Shannon Lindsay (01:09:47):
I do you think there is a lot of opportunity for machine learning and new technologies and all of that. But another thing that a lot of these nonprofits particularly the health related nonprofits are contending with is, a lot of their key staff are researchers and academics. And they're very well established and pretty resistant to change. And we had great success, pushing a new technology and rolling out a whole new way of looking at data and doing things. I don't know what the limit is for the uptake of new technology. But I think looking at your data and analyzing it is one thing, but then predictive modeling and machine learning. And all of that is a lot scarier to that group of individuals. And maybe misreading that stuff. But I think it's a harder hurdle to pass with that group.
Stephanie Bruno (01:10:41):
No, I would agree.
Rob Collie (01:10:43):
Yeah. If you're saying that human beings are resistant to change, you're going to get nothing but agreement. You got to be motivated, right? Suffering. If you're saying that academics are even more resistant to change, then again, that's the nightmare. I've been trying to wake up from for the second half of my life is that, there's such a snobbery associated with a lot of all of that. That wasn't warranted and wasn't actually helpful. Again, I had to wake up from that bad dream and go, "Oh, okay. Part of the reason why I feel compelled to beat up on calculus, right? It's truly, it's that trend in my own life, really. Shannon, you have changed jobs. What are you doing these days?
Shannon Lindsay (01:11:28):
I have changed jobs a couple of times since I was last working with Stephanie. I did a stint in consulting, where I worked solely with nonprofit and government clients. I did some teaching, which I really enjoyed. And now I just recently moved over to the worldwide learning team at Microsoft.
Rob Collie (01:11:49):
So from one nonprofit to another?
Shannon Lindsay (01:11:54):
I mean, I do carry a heavy load of guilt. Both because of how I was raised, and also because it's really my first time working in a big for profit corporation. And it's really too soon to say how I feel about the organization. But just within the first couple of weeks, the sense that I'm getting about the culture, and the team that I'm on, makes me feel like I did not, in fact, sell my soul to the devil. So...
Rob Collie (01:12:21):
People at Microsoft are generally speaking really good people. I really enjoyed my peers, my colleagues. I was there during the antitrust trial back in 2000. And at that moment, we could see like that our leaders, were the bad guys. They really did not come off looking well there. And we didn't feel great about it. But so Microsoft, as an organization, especially back then, played very rough in the marketplace. Not necessarily always with the cleanest of reputations. But inside the company was a very different story. And I think today's Microsoft is quite a bit better, sort of citizen of the world than the one I sort of grew up in. Worldwide learning, can you remind me what that is?
Shannon Lindsay (01:13:07):
Eloquently? No. But I can try.
Rob Collie (01:13:11):
We don't do eloquent here anyway, really. So it's not our business.
Shannon Lindsay (01:13:15):
Well, so I'm on the global technical learning team of worldwide learning. And so our goal is just to help people learn this technology. I mean, ultimately, it's a course, to drive sales. But I feel like, I am in a really neat position where I get to develop content to help people learn Power BI and Azure. And, specifically, I'm focused on the data analyst role, which I think suits where I've come from. I don't come from a technology background. And so I speak plain English, and I can try to put things into the mindset of, okay, coming from big flat Excel sheets. And the types of things that analysts would have to try to deal with. So our team is really just responsible for providing the content for folks to learn and then subsequently get certified on those technologies.
Rob Collie (01:14:06):
Got it. So it's external. The people doing the learning are external to Microsoft. And it's about Microsoft technologies. So what you're really doing is trying to put our training business out of work.
Shannon Lindsay (01:14:21):
Absolutely not.
Rob Collie (01:14:21):
Yeah. Oh, come on. Look, it's all fair. But training isn't, even though that's how the two of you know us. Training is now a small fraction of our business. Most of our businesses in actual project execution consulting. At breakneck pace, that's our differentiators. That we move a lot faster than really, I think anyone else. But we still do training. In a way it's good for the world, even for us. If the training becomes your sort of increasingly commoditized and increasingly easier to get. Just don't make it too good. Because we still have to compete on quality.
Shannon Lindsay (01:14:55):
Well, I'm on the team. So it's going to be good, right?
Rob Collie (01:14:59):
I know. But, maybe you could just occasionally leave something out. Just... I know you won't. I'm not really asking you to. Obviously, it's just a funny thing to say. Well, that's awesome. I think that's a great spot to be right. Take your experiences. And you know the things you're saying, when you were laughing about not being eloquent, but that's great. I'm often told, what genius it was to have written my books in the voice that I did instead of the technical book voice. And I'm like, it wasn't genius. It was just what I had to do. I couldn't get through it writing in the technical voice. I tried, it wore me out in 10 pages. I did it for me, not for the world. But it turned out that was the way it should be done. So be that thing that you're describing, right? That non eloquent, but sometimes eloquent.
Rob Collie (01:15:53):
But the human voice that walked in those shoes. That's what the world needs. The vast majority of people who need to be using this stuff are not coming from a traditional IT background. Even when they are, when they're successful at it. It's to the extent that they're also that hybrid. They are the Stephanies of the world that you wouldn't necessarily guess were The IT Crowd.
Rob Collie (01:16:18):
So how has COVID impacted your organization, Stephanie? Shannon mentioned earlier, screening for tuberculosis? Is there a Power App now that's like involved in the screening for COVID? Are you even able to screen for COVID? How is that impacting your operations?
Stephanie Bruno (01:16:34):
Yeah, pretty significantly. Number one, we have so many data collectors. So the way we work is we have office in each country that we work in. And I think there are 10 countries that we work in, in Africa. But then they do work to support 1000s of health facilities are around them. And part of the work they do, is to go out and collect data from these paper forms that Shannon mentioned. So obviously, that has changed, because they can't go to the health facilities now and collect data from the paper form. So that's a huge problem.
Stephanie Bruno (01:17:05):
It's also impacted us because a lot of our work involves so much travel. So many of our HQ people go to Africa so frequently, so nobody's doing that anymore. But on the plus side, that's created that need for being better about collaboration virtually, which I think is fantastic. So they are doing better with that. It's speeding up the need for electronic data collection tools, so that people don't have to physically go and get the data off the paper. We are not doing a lot, we haven't added a lot of COVID related work onto our plate, because we don't have funding for that. So it's the opposite of a for profit company where you do the work, and then you get paid for it. We have to get donors to give us grants, obviously, to do any work. So we don't have any grants for COVID. We don't have any grants to do that work. Our mission is pretty much HIV. I feel like I'm bouncing all around with this answer. Because it's so big, but...
Stephanie Bruno (01:18:11):
The other thing about artwork is that we're so, it's so important for us to meet donor set targets. Because the big donors give us money, but they they give us the targets. They say, "Okay, we're going to give you this money, but we expect you to test X number of people in this region. And we expect 90% of those people to get on treatment." And so we have to meet these targets, or we risk losing funding. Then potentially having to close down a whole country office and all those people lose jobs. So it's really important that we meet these targets. Sometimes the targets seem unreasonable, which is hard. But the targets didn't change because of COVID. So the targets are still there. So we are-
Rob Collie (01:18:56):
Oh, that's so hard.
Stephanie Bruno (01:18:57):
It's really hard. So then it's important for us to try to be able to explain the discrepancies. And so we've had to add COVID related Power BI reports on to our work, to help us explain the impact of how COVID is changing our results, really.
Rob Collie (01:19:16):
Is the Gates Foundation one of your founders.
Stephanie Bruno (01:19:19):
No.
Rob Collie (01:19:20):
That's actually the best answer, because I was going to say, those sorts of targets, meet these targets or you miss them. That sounds like Bill Gates.
Stephanie Bruno (01:19:29):
Well, right now, it's actually Deborah Birx, the person on the COVID team. You may have seen her when Trump was suggesting we put bleach in our lungs. And she was shaking her head or maybe looking down at her feet.
Rob Collie (01:19:42):
That's right.
Stephanie Bruno (01:19:44):
I can't remember. No, she's the one who her team sets our targets, really.
Rob Collie (01:19:48):
Okay.
Stephanie Bruno (01:19:49):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:19:50):
Interesting. Okay.
Stephanie Bruno (01:19:51):
They're very data oriented, but sometimes those targets are unrealistic. And that's been hard because if we don't meet the targets, they might say, "Okay, well, we're going to still fund you at path. But you don't get to support this facility anymore." Because they don't have enough HIV positive people that they need any money. That's what the really scary thing is. Is if we don't meet targets, we can lose funding. And that really does mean that health facilities lose funding.
Rob Collie (01:20:19):
You mentioned that a lot of data driven people in celebrity positions in this space, do you think that has anything to do with the back to the Hans Rosling TED talk? Do you know what I'm talking about? Where you talking about mortality rates-
Stephanie Bruno (01:20:34):
The one with a bubble chart-
Rob Collie (01:20:35):
The bubble charts, that's racing up and he's narrating like it's a horse race.
Stephanie Bruno (01:20:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:20:40):
And now his son is carrying on that effort. Years ago, I had a Twitter exchange with him. He was like, "Wow, I can't believe how much Power BI can help us." We tended to avoid the Microsoft tools in the nonprofit space, because of the specter of a big corporation. It's way cooler, and sort of considered more like egalitarian to use Linux tools or something. There's actually a stigma, especially in the academic world, that lingers about companies like Microsoft. And for a long time, companies like Google, were spared that bias. It's sort of a full cycle now, Microsoft is starting to look like a relatively benign entity compared to some of these other tech giants.
Stephanie Bruno (01:21:25):
Yeah. You did ask at one point, maybe an email I don't know about if we encountered any roadblocks. And I think that was what is that. We were pushing Microsoft tools. And in this space, traditionally, it's not so much about like the cool kids being Linux, it's more about open source. Because one of the biggest things that we have to do coming from the US and bringing solutions into Africa is we have to make sure that when we leave, the tools can still be used, it's still can be managed. And so oftentimes, it's just like, right out of the gate requirement that it's open source. Because, we don't want to have to pay for anything once you leave. So it's got to be open source.
Stephanie Bruno (01:22:08):
I mean, I remember being pretty nervous that I'm pushing this saying, and it's not open source, it's not free, it is a tool that has to be paid for. Since we started using it, so many other NGOs have also started using it, the CDC has started using it. So I mean, I breathed a huge breath of relief about this. Because I think that, I didn't take us down a path that was going to ultimately get us in trouble. But I think part of that is because I have to preface this by saying, I really have drunk the Microsoft Kool Aid. And I love Microsoft. I think partly, hugely, because of how much they've done for our organization. It's been amazing. And also how much they do for nonprofits in general, with the really big discounts they provide. And the training and the resources they offer. It's impressive, it's really good.
Stephanie Bruno (01:23:00):
I would definitely argue that even if we left tomorrow, I think that it's still sustainable. It's not something that people can't afford to use. And it's not too hard to use, it's just all going to fall apart, if we leave.
Rob Collie (01:23:13):
And most people don't realize this, but Microsoft software is relatively affordable, relative to the competition, even at full price. So then you add in the the discounts and stuff. Microsoft model is the bulk model, their goal is to have the whole world using it. And if the whole world is using it, they don't have to charge any one particular organization, necessarily all that much. Yeah, so that's cool. I hadn't really thought about that really the headwind that you might get, but thinking about that conversation with Ola Rosling brought it back.
Stephanie Bruno (01:23:43):
Yeah, it was scary. But I think we're cool now. I think we're okay.
Rob Collie (01:23:47):
No one ever got fired for going open source in the nonprofit industry, right? You had to stick your neck out and suggest something really risky like Microsoft?
Stephanie Bruno (01:23:58):
Yes. Something risky like Microsoft. Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:24:01):
That kind of came up with Austin when he was on the show, talking about the museum space, the conservation space that he works in, and the inherent distrust of private enterprise in that space, right? If you're a for profit company, you're to be watched closely, which I think is completely right. It's a good thing to keep an eye on. So it's hard running a tech startup type business that isn't predatory, in a way. Because you're still going to be viewed as suspiciously as if you are, but you're not getting the benefits of being predatory either.
Rob Collie (01:24:40):
So well, I've certainly enjoyed this. I'm really glad that we were able to do this. I'm glad that the two of you took the time. I really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us.
Stephanie Bruno (01:24:48):
Thanks so much, Rob. I'm really glad you reached out to this has been fun.
Rob Collie (01:24:51):
Maybe we'll do it again sometime. We just got to wait a little while for the, to manufacture more things to talk about.
Stephanie Bruno (01:25:00):
Oh, we got plenty of stuff to talk about.
Rob Collie (01:25:03):
Indeed. Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email, Luke P-L-U-K-E-P at powerpivotpro.com. Have a day to day!
Conor Cunningham is a Microsoft Architect and he knows a great deal about data, storage, and everything Microsoft. He and Rob go way back and were even roommates for a couple of years during Rob's Microsoft days. There's quite a bit of history between Rob, Tom, and Conor. A history that fosters an insightful discussion and a little bit of busting chops! We discuss quite a bit including:
- What a Microsoft Architect does
- Organized storage and Data lakes
- Conor's celebrity status
- How the Query Store was almost killed, but Conor didn't give up on it
- Remote presentations and working remotely
- And so much more!
Episode Timeline:
- 2:25 - Conor the Celebrity
- 4:40 - Conor The Architect, and his unusually organized kitchen
- 9:40 - Speaking of meticulous organization, we talk Organized Storage and the transition from row and column models to....something else
- 16:10 - Data Shape and Data Volume in selecting databases, and are the old dusty data warehouses being replaced
- 21:50 - Curves and Cliffs in warehousing, some avenues are easier and cheaper than others
- 25:25 - The Data lake has changed the analysis process
- 29:50 - Rob pushes Conor into a long-awaited breakthrough, some failed projects from their past, and how the name "SharePoint" was almost given to a different product
- 34:55 - Let's go back to Conor The Celebrity, some good stories from Tom's Microsoft MVP days, and how Conor had no fear of the salty MVPs
- 46:50 - The "Query Store" isn't a place you go to purchase queries
- 55:00 - Keeping up with the competition: AWS and Babelfish
- 1:02:00 - The (ORIGINAL) Windows Phone debacle, and Windows Media PCs
- 1:06:20 - Doing presentations in the COVID-19 era and the future of the remote workplace at Microsoft
- 1:14:30 - Redmond's new buildings, and getting caught in the infinite loop that was the old Redmond facility design
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends to another episode of Raw Data. Today's guest is Conor Cunningham, thee Conor Cunningham. Some people in the SQL community simply refer to him as Conor. Conor is an architect at Microsoft on the Data Platform that spans a lot of ground as you'll see a during the podcast. He's long been involved with SQL server. He's up to his eyeballs in everything Azure-related that's not why I know him. Conor and I met as friends at Microsoft when we were both youngsters, we had both just shown up out there and we actually ended up, the two of us plus two other guys we ended up renting a house together for like a year and a half. It was a very interesting time in our lives. So as you might expect, this conversation is a blend of the personal and the professional. I think you'd expect nothing less of us at this point.
Rob Collie (00:00:50):
We talk a lot about some of my favorite topics, things like the evolution of storage from purely rectangular to curly and how that interacts with the worlds of data warehousing, and how it interacts with our world of analytics. We talk about presentation styles and authenticity. We talk about a lot of things. He's delightfully nerdy, and he explained to us how his SQL architecture sort of background influences the layout and the design and how he stores things in his kitchen, which was awesome. But he is a really interesting guy, a funny guy, a nice guy, really a great friend and I really enjoyed this. So let's get after it.
Announcer (00:01:34):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:38):
This is the Raw Data By P3 Podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business, go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data By P3 is data with a human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:57):
Welcome to the show. Conor Cunningham, how you doing, man?
Conor Cunningham (00:02:01):
Pretty good, Rob. How are you today?
Rob Collie (00:02:03):
Oh, fantastic. You know, it's been too long. We need to invent things like this, like podcast really the podcast, the real purpose of it is it is a forcing function for talking to old friends. That's what we're doing here, maybe not 100%, but it seems to be working.
Conor Cunningham (00:02:17):
I like it. I like it.
Rob Collie (00:02:19):
Yeah. Unlike many of our guests, you and Tom already know each other.
Conor Cunningham (00:02:25):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:02:25):
This is also usually the vehicle by which I introduced Tom to all kinds of people that you know all kinds of weirdos that he doesn't know. But today we have a weirdo that he does know. And we're all weirdos here so as you know, we're not picking on you particularly. But I think there was a moment years ago where I was talking to Tom and I said something about having lived with Conor and Scott and whatever. Anyway he goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Conor-Conor Cunningham? I'm like, "Yeah." And he's like, "You know Conor Cunningham?" And I'm like, "Yes, yes. I know Conor Cunningham." Tom's voice took on this like hallowed tone. I think honestly that's when Tom really decided that he liked me was that I knew Conor.
Conor Cunningham (00:03:13):
I'm glad I was your in.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:15):
No, it gave you legitimacy is what it did.
Rob Collie (00:03:18):
Yeah. I know him that doesn't mean that-
Conor Cunningham (00:03:21):
It's good enough, I guess.
Rob Collie (00:03:24):
... Conor would Knight me. I thought that was hilarious because I had no idea really. I didn't know that the Conor that I knew was somehow like a celebrity in the SQL space, but it makes sense. You know, I just didn't know.
Conor Cunningham (00:03:41):
I've been pretty lucky that people kind of all know my name now since I have been doing keynotes for my boss, Rohan. We have this thing called the Bob and Conor Show, we do it pass every year. And so it's rare that you get known by just your name, your first name. And I guess I've been lucky in the sense that at the right time I was able to get an in front of thousands and thousands of people. And now it's just thee Conor. I don't necessarily let it get to my head it's only in a very specific community after that I'm not really worth anything, but I think within that group, they seem to like me.
Rob Collie (00:04:12):
Yeah. You're like Alice Cooper, you go on stage and then you're thee Conor. But when you walk off stage, you put your pants on like everybody else, one leg at a time, you know?
Conor Cunningham (00:04:23):
Probably. Yeah, if I were wearing pants during this pandemic.
Rob Collie (00:04:25):
Just to know yeah, I know. I think I'm actually wearing pajamas right now. So I don't know if that qualifies as pants, but it's a good COVID day for that. So when people ask you what you do? What's your job at Microsoft? What do you tell them these days?
Conor Cunningham (00:04:39):
It's a little odd, my title is architect, but that means different things to different people. And what you think it means is only maybe 10% of what my job actually is. So architect at Microsoft means different things in different parts of the company. It's maybe a little bit of a glory title, but really the way to think about it is you're a senior engineer you're respected for what you do. You often are given these amorphous problems that don't really have solutions and in that sense, it's kind of what an architect does. I'm not really drawing like class diagrams or anything about how you put software together, but I am often trying to make sure that the whole picture of what we build for SQL or any of the other data offerings that I work on works together for the customer. So that often can be different things like when GDPR came in, I had to go figure out how do you get GDPR, the European privacy rule to work across all of our products so that we didn't hopefully get sued by the EU?
Conor Cunningham (00:05:39):
And that's not probably a typical architect task but that's the kind of thing that would be normal for me. So I work on getting large companies to adopt our platform and to sort of solve all the issues that come up with that. Sometimes technical, sometimes training, sometimes legal, sometimes whatever. And usually it's like a joker in a deck of cards so you just be... You're throwing these weird problems and then you kind of get to go choose your own adventure and hopefully solve them. So it's a variety of different things and on any given day, I like to think of it as you don't really know what the day is going to be, but there's probably going to be a bunch of fun problems. And then you just have to kind of keep up because the pace is relentless.
Rob Collie (00:06:23):
Yeah. Well, I do remember that about Microsoft for sure. It's actually one of the things that I, in hindsight, I've credited with a lot of my development. I mean, really most of my development came at Microsoft really, but the pace of it, the number of decision that you're forced to make per day that are going to stick, these are decisions that are going to impact the software. And some days you're making easily mid-double digit decisions about the products. It's crazy, it's a high-pace of decisions with enormous impact, potentially enormous act anyway. And so you've really got to be on your game and it really rewires your brain in some ways that I never really anticipated.
Conor Cunningham (00:07:05):
You have to get in their head space to do it and so one of the challenges that I face is when I get done with work, I have to figure out how to turn the brain off in order to go back to doing normal human things like making dinner or whatever. You typically need to drive home and during the pandemic, you don't really get to leave the house, right? So you end up needing just to stop and give it five or 10 minutes to "drive home" so that you can just let yourself unwind a little bit and then become hopefully normal human Conor to be able to go watch football or whatever it is that you want to do that's for fun.
Rob Collie (00:07:41):
I'm envisioning you like cooking dinner and going all like Rain Man lining up all the Tater tots on the tray.
Conor Cunningham (00:07:49):
I will admit that I have taken every single thing out of my kitchen and organized it by function.
Rob Collie (00:07:56):
I mean, you've got to be able to store and retrieve those utensils now don't you? And you would not want to be inefficient about that.
Conor Cunningham (00:08:06):
Nope. I have too many colanders, so I got rid of some of the colanders and everything is partitioned by serving, baking, et cetera. I had so much fun doing this. It was too many years without doing it and now that I've done it, I am so happy that my kitchen is ordered.
Rob Collie (00:08:24):
You know it's all indexed, you know.
Conor Cunningham (00:08:27):
Pretty much.
Rob Collie (00:08:28):
Do you have failover clusters? Do you have a backup kitchen?
Conor Cunningham (00:08:32):
I have a second pantry.
Rob Collie (00:08:34):
Oh.
Conor Cunningham (00:08:35):
The first pantry's a little small so I have this room in my house it's not quite big enough to be a room it's like where you'd put a second fridge, I guess, but I don't. I have a wine fridge in there, but it was just big enough to kind of walk in. Originally, I tried to put like a treadmill in there but it was just too big. So I made it a second pantry and now it's like a big walk in pantry and it actually works out pretty well.
Rob Collie (00:08:57):
So you've got an onboard cash pantry?
Conor Cunningham (00:08:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:09:00):
And then sort of a secondary, more offsite type of... Yeah, I understand I get you.
Conor Cunningham (00:09:04):
Level two cash for the pantry definitely.
Rob Collie (00:09:06):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yep. It's just basic, it's pretty elementary really when you get down to it.
Conor Cunningham (00:09:11):
It took me a few years to figure out that was the right plan, but now that have settled on it, I'm extremely happy.
Rob Collie (00:09:16):
I can totally see you getting into that. We should do like an MTV Cribs type episode where you talk about your kitchen and check us out, man, over here. All right. Well, until we get the budget for that, we're just going to continue with the podcast. So when you and I first met, you were working on Jolt, the old, a DB driver for the jet engine, that powered access. And then as the years went by, and I'm sure there's some interesting things to talk about with Jet. I just don't know what they are, so we'll have to circle back. But one of the number one things I want to talk to you about is when I knew you at Microsoft, it was basically Pre-Hadoop. There's pre-Hadoop and there's post-Hadoop. And there's two different eras in our professional career when it comes to organized storage.
Rob Collie (00:10:05):
And actually we have talked about this on a previous podcast about how Microsoft's sort of halfway anticipated this move to semi-structured storage. In the first iteration completely I think completely got the implementation wrong, which was XML blob storage in SQL. You know, it was anticipating a trend that data wasn't going to be just rectangles anymore. It was going to be curly as a certain architect referred to it. So when you say architect I think about these old white papers that I used to read with a certain degree of ceremony you would read these because they were hallowed, you know. Then you look back years later and kind of chuckle at how off they kind of were, even though they were at the same time pretty infused with foresight.
Rob Collie (00:10:55):
So I would really like to talk about just in general, this transition from this rigorously Roman column model, which still obviously is very, very common and useful today. It's not gone at all, but there's all this other stuff that's happened since then. And I think you've now been dragged into that. You've been dragged out into those deep waters as well. Like you're in the middle of all that too, aren't you?
Conor Cunningham (00:11:23):
Yeah. I work across all of the Azure Data offerings that we have both SQL server on-premises and also our cloud offerings, including the recently released Synapse Analytics platform. And that works over data in a logical data lake and it can be whatever format you want. It could be CSV files, it could be XML files. It could be whatever, parquet and that lets you kind of query over data. Where the structure isn't necessarily forced on you by a database and its schema, it's something that you tell the database what that structure is and then have it interface with it sort of indirectly.
Rob Collie (00:12:01):
Yeah. So in terms of a personal journey, I kind of remember you as a SQL snob. There was a purity to the SQL and a purity to everything. When I say SQLs now let's say so lovingly, but I've never got a chance to talk to you about like that was a real expansion of the world and the fact that you're involved in all sides of it now, what was that journey like for you sort of opening up to this new stuff? Like in the beginning did it seem kind of, ah, this will never work.
Conor Cunningham (00:12:34):
You know, when I was younger I would probably have said that, right? That doesn't solve all the problems that you want and you guys are crazy, leave me alone. As I've gotten a little older, I've had to just really catch myself the first time someone says a new idea. I try really hard just to bite my tongue and listen for a little bit more longer because there's usually a kernel of truth in the crazy new idea. And if you let yourself sort of sit there and listen to it and stew over it for a little while you figure out what is interesting about it. So the general trend about how we've got to the scale out, no SQL, maybe not necessarily strict schema view of the world is partially based on just the explosion of the amount of data that's out there now.
Conor Cunningham (00:13:23):
And at some basic level you can scale up a computer to a certain size and then all of a sudden when the problem is too big for whatever the biggest computer is that you can buy, you need a different approach. And the world got to the point where that much data exists and we actually do want to process that. And once you start scaling out, then you don't necessarily need to have a bunch of really expensive computers to do that. You just need a whole bunch of computers with the right scale out algorithms. And that world gives you a lot of flexibility. It's also a little bit more complicated. The core algorithms, the area where I play to go do architect Conor stuff are the same when you get down to the bottom of it. It's just a question of how do you make sure that you have a cohesive technical solution in whatever it is you're trying to sell to the customer so that you can hopefully solve their business problem.
Conor Cunningham (00:14:09):
And a lot of the world that I play with these days is some combination of scale up and scale out or structured data and semi-structured data, depending on where people are focusing and figuring out how do we apply the right algorithms generically across all of those. And it's a fun problem space, but it's also a very big world. It used to be very simple inside the SQL Org. We would just go build more SQL features and life is grand. And we still do a lot of that and that's still a very valuable business for us. But it also is an area where you have to be open to go meet the data where it is because there's so much of it now, just loading it into a database can take too long.
Conor Cunningham (00:14:48):
So you need to think differently about how to solve problems like that and that gives you opportunities to kind of rethink well, what could you do? What is a database? Well, a database is just a thing that answers questions for you and then maybe provides you transactions and maybe does this and that. If you don't need all of those, then you can build a "database that maybe works differently" and solves problems better, cheaper, faster, whatever it is that you need to really meet customers where they are today.
Rob Collie (00:15:13):
Yeah. It's the volume of data is exploding, but it's not just that it's also right the shape of it isn't quite... It doesn't want to like fit into neat rows and columns quite so cleanly anymore. And if it did, it would fit into the world's most complicated ad hoc schema. Can we explore that a little bit? This problem, and this type of storage sprung up in response to basically trying to store the internet, right? Like it was like internet search engines need to index the whole internet, how do we save that? So certainly tremendous volume, check and also though the properties of an individual page or whatever, a webpage doesn't just squish down into SQL, it doesn't squish down into tables and everything. And so to the extent that we can, this might be an impossible question, but to the extent that we can, how much of it is volume and how much of it is shape that drives not the introduction of these tools like data lakes and things like that, but their usage today?
Conor Cunningham (00:16:18):
Yeah. It's a good question. I think that one way to look at it is even if you just had purely structured data, you would still need all this scale out stuff. We have scale out versions of traditional database engines and there's several commercial company that provide them including Microsoft and that exists. But you're right, Rob that the amount of data that is not formally structured is much, much larger than that. And therefore, if you want to go process that data, you need a different toolbox of stuff. And some of that you can build a new database engine, sometimes it's on the side or complementary. Sometimes it's just something completely different. Say I'm going to embrace that and just store random content so Cosmos DB is a new SQL store that we sell and it basically just lets you pass in JSON and you can store whatever you want, but up to a certain size.
Conor Cunningham (00:17:07):
And then you can try to find ways to store different kinds of content, as long as you can figure out the interface that you want to use over it to make sure that you can write code to process it however you want. And that can be HTML, that could be images, it could be whatever it is that you want, but in each of those domains, there's probably going to be more specific tools because the amount of data is big enough now that it warrants having tools that kind of go after each space separately.
Rob Collie (00:17:32):
It's just so fascinating. So like as I've been trying to, and I think reasonably well adapting in the way that you have, I've also had to adapt to this new world. And I did have a little bit of exposure to it when I briefly worked for Bing with their storage. Let's talk about data warehouses, one of my favorite things, my favorite straw men to set on fire from time to time. When you think about the term data warehouse, right? It's supposed to store like you can see the dust in the crates like the Indiana Jones, the end of the first Indiana Jones movie like this is where you put data so it doesn't get lost. Because your operational systems don't have a need to keep around the five years of history. Your operational systems are just really mostly concerned with the now and the recent.
Rob Collie (00:18:21):
And so the original name given to these things implies, just don't lose anything. It does not imply that name anyway does not imply the priesthood that evolved around it. It became this like tower of Abel type of enterprise, it doesn't even really matter what the data warehouse is used for. The data warehouse is a thing that we're going to spend careers on and decades on. And one of my sort of pet theories has been that these semi-structured storage techniques have been eating into the data warehouse space, even though they don't do what we think of a data warehouse is doing, right? Like really neatly organized, highly structured, intelligently materialized storage.
Rob Collie (00:19:09):
They don't do that. They don't replace that, but they absolutely replace the don't lose anything goal. Right? Like they do that, Right? And it's like a garbage disposal you just like almost like throw anything at it. It's like no, no. Yep. Got it. Got it. It's not going to be lost, not going to be lost. Part of my agenda for today is to run some of my pet theories by you and get your opinion on them. And if you disagree, if you think they're bad ideas, it's no big deal. We'll just edit them out. It's no problem.
Conor Cunningham (00:19:39):
It's an interesting problem. Like enterprise data warehouses have existed at the center of large companies for like the source of truth for running those businesses. And there's a trend generally that we've seen where either just because they wanted to get off of expensive enterprise data solutions and move to Hadoop, they've been able to move to a solution that's more scale out. I think that there's a chicken and egg question about is it because they wanted semi-structured data or because they just wanted to get off of the maintenance fees for a particular vendor. I suspect that the maintenance fees and the size of the data are probably driving it more strictly in my mind than just whether it's semi-structured or not. But once you go down that path, you have the option of storing hierarchical data or data that's structured differently. And that then becomes a tool that's in your quiver that you can kind of play with all the different options that you can with I want to store more data there.
Conor Cunningham (00:20:34):
And I still think there's a lot of structured data that's going to play in that world, but you can mix in semi-structured data, chase on payloads on the side, whatever it is that you want more easily without having to worry about, oh, how long is my backup going to take. The other nuance that's kind of interesting is in clouds today, the cost to store things that aren't being touched is generally very, very close to zero per bite. It's pretty cheap. Like we store petabytes and petabytes of data just to run one server in our public cloud. And that's just fine. It costs a fair amount of money to store things at that scale, but it's completely possible to do so. And we use it data to run our business effectively. Any big company can do that as well, even any modest size company can store tons of data cheaply compared to what it would've cost in one of these earlier solutions.
Conor Cunningham (00:21:26):
And I think that that's part of it is that it democratizes the ability to get at lots of data. And then you can do lots of different things. Whereas before it was so expensive that you had to structure it, you had to spend all this time. Now you can choose if you want to cook that data into a structured format or not choose it if it's not worth your time right now.
Rob Collie (00:21:44):
Yeah. There's a big difference between curves and cliffs and traditional enterprise data warehousing was a cliff. It's like, if you want to store anything, just write down a transaction. First, you have to read this thousand page Bible. It's like the cost of entry, even for the simplest things, is that you've really... It's all up front. And the ability to sort of scale how much you want to think about it and to be able to turn a knob rather than just flip a switch. You know it's not binary all or nothing. I think that the implementation cost even just figuring it out, what the schema should be and all of that kind of stuff, even that is part of the cost of ownership. And of course, I think you're right, like cost drives everything. So if that goes hand in hand with like reduced licensing costs like hey, sign me up.
Conor Cunningham (00:22:39):
Absolutely. I think that the space here for proper enterprise data warehouse design still exists. Even in the scale out world, you can benefit from Kimball type 2 dimensions and fact tables that are as narrow as you can make them and all that type of stuff, because that does reduce the time to get results in some cases. It's not required in as many cases and the ability to add scale out processing can also be another lever to go after that same problem without necessarily having to resort to the same exerting rules that you would have in order to play the data warehousing game effectively.
Rob Collie (00:23:15):
People ask me, what's your opinion on data warehouses? And basically I say to the extent that you already have one, they're awesome. They're the best thing in the world. They make everything easier. When I get into trouble with people when we start getting into arguments is when I say it's just not worth waiting on you build one. Analysis and actual business value can proceed and actually should proceed even if all the data that you need isn't already in the EDW. When it comes to going to work with our clients if ahead of time, if I could sort of magic wand sort of choose, I would say, hey, it would be great if this client already had everything in their enterprise data warehouse, just lower friction, we're off and running. You know I would love that. It's just never reality. It's always lagging behind the realities of the business by years really, in terms of what's been incorporated and digested, there's always so much that's not stored in there. That's relevant.
Rob Collie (00:24:12):
I love that we've reached the point in this profession where we can, we can hybridize, we can use data from your data warehouse if you have one, but at the same time, there's also things being pulled from elsewhere and modeled together. And it's kind of a happy place to be.
Conor Cunningham (00:24:25):
Yeah. I mean, just last week we released an update to our Synapse Analytics platform that lets you just throw all the data into a logical data lake and then you create some external tables on top of that and you can query it on demand. And instead of having to provision the data warehouse upfront, it charges you by the terabyte processed not any provision thing. It just goes away when you're not using it and it just costs storage and that's it. So there's going to be lots of work to make that easier and easier for people to get value out of their data with less investment to build that data warehouse upfront. Partially just because of the size you can't load it all anymore. And partially because that's where customers need help. They want time to solution for each team, not just the team that's in central IT for a large organization to have control over that data warehouse. If you want to spin up a new one and just have your own data lake on the side, that's completely possible now and it's really easy.
Rob Collie (00:25:16):
Oh, that's great. That's great. This is probably my last theory of this sort. The game of data warehousing, old data warehousing was in order to store it, you had to design the tables to store it. You had to put it into rectangles in order to store it. Whereas now with data lakes, you don't have to go through that process if you don't want to. You can store it in sort of non-rectangular curly format, closer to its original format. But when it's time to analyze, which is typically where our company comes in, when you're analyzing across lots of "records or entities" you're not as concerned about the ways in which those entities are structured differently. You tend to be analyzing them across dimensions that they share. It's their commonalities that are interesting. And so you end up with rectangular-powered analysis like we still get to tables. When we're building our data model, tables are still absolutely 100% the way to go even if that data's coming from a format that wasn't stored as tables.
Rob Collie (00:26:23):
So it's like you delay the rectangularization of the data until query time in a way because in every query is different. Every query would require you to rectangularize the data in a different way, right? And so it's kind of back to that curve versus cliff thing, right? You can kind of delay tomorrow's decisions until tomorrow when you actually know what they are rather than trying to anticipate every possible decision tomorrow in your schema that you design today.
Conor Cunningham (00:26:52):
Yeah. I mean there's truth to that. I think the way that most of these logical data lake things work now are sort of tied to this runtime binding of the idea of here's the format now, and this is the subset I'm going to look at. So you can definitely push that decision out. There is still a trade off between like how fast is that query or how much does it cost to run if you're going to do that every single day, maybe it makes more sense to schematize it to get that to go faster or be cheaper or whatever. But that's a trade off that you can choose if you need to, as opposed to having to do it to be able to start playing.
Rob Collie (00:27:34):
Right. No crystal ball delaying the work until you actually know what it is, is a tremendous advantage. And I completely agree with you. Let's say we walk up to an unstructured storage like a data lake and we start extracting things from it for analysis. There's going to be a lot of experimentation and iteration in that process. So as the project proceeds, we even refine the rectangles that we look for, right? But then after a while we dial it in and this dashboard, whatever it is that we built you're right, Conor like it's now running every day, powering business decisions and at refresh time or maybe we're using real time pass through queries or whatever, at refresh time, the performance of "rectangularizing" paying that every single time might suck. And so now that the spec for this solution is essentially stabilized. It's almost trivial I would think to define those rectangles as like a cache format that you can pull faster, you can optimize at that point rather than trying to optimize for every possible answer in the future, which is really a losing game, isn't it?
Conor Cunningham (00:28:43):
Yeah. We definitely see people do that at different layers of the stack. You get like results set caching for example, or indexed views, materialized views are things that you can see inside the database to help you with that as well to kind of delay, even on top of these external formats to say, you know what I'm going to pre-process it once and store it here to make the layers above easier to serve. And you can all also do that within your serving layer as well. So I think there's lots of different options to try to reduce that cost to decide when you want to make that investment to go and really schematize things and you can choose to do so or not now in a lot more cases than you used to be able to.
Rob Collie (00:29:21):
What a glorious world we live in. And you know what else is glorious is that Conor now you and I actually have a place where our careers meet. For the longest time like we were just both nerds working in tech at Microsoft, but like we'd come home and talk to each other because we did. There were four of us who shared a house together for like a year and a half, a very interesting year and a half. But we were never on the same page in terms of what we were working on. Now, I do remember though, you telling me that the MSI files that we used in Windows Installer that I was not allowed to call those databases.
Conor Cunningham (00:29:56):
Yeah. That was back in my earlier dogmatic days. You can call it whatever you want now, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:30:01):
Well, we all come from where you're coming from, what you're talking about. I mean, I have my own versions of that with age and experience and humbling experience, right? Is where you start to get a little bit more flexible, a little bit better about these sorts of things. Okay. So we could call an MSI file database now. Okay, here's the real test. Does Exchange run on a database, Conor?
Conor Cunningham (00:30:28):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:30:29):
Yes.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:31):
The look on his face.
Rob Collie (00:30:33):
It was an important moment we had a breakthrough. It was a running joke where I'd run around and say, I forget it's JET Red and JET Blue, right? I forget which JET you worked on, but one of them was better than the other one.
Conor Cunningham (00:30:47):
You know, the worst part is that the other one is more successful than the red one that I worked on but-
Rob Collie (00:30:52):
Oh, bitter, bitter, bitter, bitter pill.
Conor Cunningham (00:30:55):
No, I don't feel so bad about that anymore. I think that it's definitely the case that blue got used in a number of different things, including the storage engine backing for Exchange. And it's used in a few other places as well across Microsoft, but it's also a very specialized engine and it has a different sweet spot. It's not a general purpose database engine that you can use to solve any problem. So SQL is a far more general thing. I've worked on the main SQL server code base now for well say a very long time and that has some flexibility to do a lot of things. And I kind of enjoy that space because it is so flexible.
Rob Collie (00:31:35):
Well, don't worry, Conor the single biggest failure in our personal circle that has anything to do with the Exchange Store is my project that I worked on for two and a half years, Office Designer, never saw the light of day got killed mercifully, was killed before it ever went to market. And believe it or not at one point in time, that awful, awful thing we were working on that was going to just be terrible. It was going to really, really suck. That thing was in contention to be named SharePoint, the SharePoint name was up for grabs. It was like Office knew this was a hot name and it was going to apply to either the technology that the Office web server folks were working on, or it was going to apply to the stuff that we were working on with Exchange. And it was like they were just waiting to see which one of us deserved it and they picked the right horse in that battle.
Conor Cunningham (00:32:28):
Yeah. SharePoint is an amazing business. They're not a normal database app. They run on top of SQL server, but they don't really follow normal rules for rows and columns the same way that a normal app would. But it's a very, very large business for Microsoft and in some sense that's proof that you can take a problem area that's not quite normal row and columns that are fully schematized and derive a lot of value for customers that way.
Rob Collie (00:32:56):
I remember when I was still there like the SQL org almost like regarded the SharePoint product as like an invader in a way, like a barbarian because was not... SQL was never intended originally to power something like that, but the SharePoint folks figured out how to make it work. And I remember, I don't know if this is still true, but like when you would go to Save a file like to a document library on SharePoint, there was like this ridiculous series of stored procedures that would run that would like tear that file into a million pieces and store them in individual places. And of course it took forever to say Upload a file to SharePoint because of it. And I suspect that that's kind of calmed down and things have kind of gotten more streamlined over the years, but originally it was kind of like the rogue effort in a way.
Conor Cunningham (00:33:41):
Yeah. It's definitely a unique application on top of SQL in the sense that it doesn't follow the normal design rules that we would use for any traditional relational database application. That doesn't mean that they can't make it work and that they're not getting value out of the layer that SQL is they can use us to do backups. They definitely run queries. They happen to work, but it's not like we use SharePoint as an example for how to build an app. That said they have a huge investment in the enterprise readiness about how they run say SharePoint Online and they are an excellent partner of ours internally to be able to go drive us to be better at making sure that all the core keep the lights on things that we have to do to run our cloud service are being stressed every single day. Both on just the metrics of delivery and also on cost. So we have that running inside of our cloud today, so SharePoint Online runs on top of SQL Azure and they do that at scale with all of the different SharePoint sites that you have on there running. And it's a huge enterprise and it's one of our big internal customers.
Rob Collie (00:34:47):
Let's go back to Conor the celebrity.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:51):
I got some stuff.
Rob Collie (00:34:52):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:53):
All right.
Rob Collie (00:34:53):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:54):
So before we get there, I'm glad Conor, you cleared up what your title really is and the reason I'm glad, because whenever I speak of you, I just tell people he's the architect. So to find out that that's your actual title, just that makes me feel better about myself like I haven't been lying all this time. So I go back to knowing Conor roughly around 2009 when I was fortunate enough to become a Microsoft MVP. And that's where I got to really meet Conor was at the MVP Summit. And for people listening that don't know what it is. An MVP is essentially an advocate for Microsoft across any of the product groups mine currently is classified as data platform. And they would bring you on campus once a year and the product teams would talk through some of the stuff that they'd be working on and they use it to collect feedback to make the products better.
Thomas LaRock (00:35:47):
So this is my introduction to Conor and a couple of things that you've said earlier about being the architect and all the fun things you do on the daily basis. The question I have for that, how long does it take for your decisions and your work? How long does it take for that to show up in the product? And I think the answer's different like how long did it take when you started and how long does it take now?
Conor Cunningham (00:36:09):
Yeah, so before I answer, there are other Conor-like people on my team, I'm not thee architect, I am an architect.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:17):
Fair point.
Conor Cunningham (00:36:17):
And I don't want to try to make it oversell who I am. There are many, many smart people on my team and I am smart because I get to work with them as much as anything else. That said the time period to build software has changed over my career and SQL server would typically ship every three years or so. And so it used to be the way that we would build software for that would be we'd sort of think or design for a year, code for a year, test for a year and then ship. And then five years later, someone would tell me if the feature sucked or not, because they would take them that much time to go and adopt it.
Conor Cunningham (00:36:54):
The world these days has sort of been inverted with the cloud. We now have to deliver software into the cloud every single month and we have to do that piecemeal. And by the time we get done after doing that 10 times, then the whole feature is there. And then later we ship that into SQL server. So that's the same code base for our cloud version of SQL and the on-premises version. And so the part that's interesting now is we're able to get feedback really early from customers as to whether that very first piece of small chunk of the solution works or not. And then use that to refine as we go. And that actually is really powerful for us because now I go find customers before we start the feature and if we don't have any, we don't build it. And so that's a very different engagement model and it used to be that we would kind of listen to the MVPs and we still do, but like they would kind of give us all this feedback on the two versions ago, product that we shipped and then we try to figure out what to do about that.
Conor Cunningham (00:37:58):
There still is a degree of strategy and how do we think about where the market's going to go, that we put into what we do and why we prioritize things. But the engagement model that we're able to do now is far, far different both because we have telemetry in our cloud on what people are using or not using. And we're able to use that to figure out, oh, my God people are failing here. Like this is airing all the time. What's to go fix that. And we can also learn what features they're using in a way that helps us turn that around and invest in the areas that'll help customers the most. So that model is very different now and I actually think it's hopefully more responsive in the sense that we have to ship software that works. And you can't just guess, and then hope that they use it. We actually have to prove that they use it before we're done or else sometimes we just go cancel a feature that's missed the mark.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:45):
So when I met you, Azure was really just starting and SQL Azure, which by the way SQL Azure is still remains the best name you've ever given it. But what I remember about it was the pushback, don't want to hear about don't want to talk about. And at some point I recognized Azure as basically a sandbox for you and your team to basically do some type of continuous integration, continuous deployment and to speed up the ability to get features to market. And I'm like, even if nobody uses Azure but Microsoft, Microsoft's going to create some really great stuff faster. And obviously you're only going to do it if somebody wants to buy it, but at least you have the ability and now telemetry and everything else that goes into these products to do that. And I just think it's been a great thing.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:38):
So back to the MVP thing is that I remember being in that room and you would walk in. I have some of my favorite Conor moments, right? Like this guy, he walks in one day, he's got two slides. The first slide says, Conor's going to talk and then the second slide just said, Conor will take questions. That's it. That's all he had and the thing is, everybody in the room is like, yeah, that sounds good. Not a problem. And then there's another one where I think he just walked in and said... You didn't even have slides. He goes, "I'm just going to talk for an hour and then I'll take some questions from you." And we were all like, "Yeah, still not a problem."
Thomas LaRock (00:40:17):
You weren't speaking, somebody else was speaking but you were addressing the room and your comments of "I'm not afraid of you anymore." Just still resonates just this... You can... Oh, that's it. "You can rate me wherever you want one through five. I don't care. I'm not afraid of you anymore." And it's just... So yes, Conor is a celebrity for all these reasons.
Conor Cunningham (00:40:37):
In fairness, one of the things that maybe the audience wouldn't know is that the MVPs, there's a bunch of really smart, passionate people that are there. And they spend a lot of their hours working on behalf of Microsoft. And then they come to this forum and not every presentation that they would be giving would be particularly good. Sometimes the people that were working on a feature may not be the best at public speaking, or maybe they just had a bad business plan and they didn't really have a good picture that understood the customer well, and then the MVP's would be very willing to let them have it essentially. So I remember I gave a talk after one such talking so that the room was very salty, right? And I get into the room and people didn't really understand that I don't take guff from people when it comes to this sort of stuff.
Conor Cunningham (00:41:27):
I want to get the feedback that I want from the room, but I have an agenda when I go into a room of 100 MVPs about what I want to learn and that's perhaps a little different than tell me what you think about my special flower project I've been working on, where someone is innocently coming in. So I'm usually coming into that room to play a different game than the average presenter. I also have the benefit of having been captain of the debate team in high school. And so having people try to bait me doesn't really work that well because I know most of the standard tactics and techniques.
Conor Cunningham (00:42:01):
And I also, I'm just playing a different game. I'm trying really hard to figure out I have to make a key decision about the architecture. I'm not even going to tell you what it is because I can't yet, but I need to get the right data points from this audience because you are all the expert customers that have all this in your head, but maybe you can't tell me right now because you're too passionate about whatever random idea you want to complain about. It's just a different type of engagement model that I was using to go into that room and pull data that I needed to make decisions. So that maybe gives a little context as to why it's different. Also, Thomas, in fairness, as I've gotten more senior, I get less and less time to prepare. So coming in with two slides saying "Yeah, I'm going to give an extemporaneous talk with no slides for an hour" is pretty much my default mode of operation at this point. And I've been told literally five minutes before going in front of an audience of 100 or 200, "Hey Conor, I know you've been working all day in London and you're jet-lagged by the way, the user group is here and you're going to speak to them." And no one ever warned me that I had to go give a talk.
Conor Cunningham (00:43:03):
So I would just get up and start talking and figure out how do I explain what we're doing, why our platform is interesting, what sorts of things people are finding that are challenging about it, and just I'm giving a very ad hoc presentation because literally that's all I have time to do. So I might as well use it to kind of help me refine my picture of what our customers need. And I'm constantly trying to do that so that I can hopefully make the software better when I make decisions every day.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:29):
So one of those times you walked in front of the room and it was still at that point of where Azure, there was a lot of pushback. And like you said, you would ask the MVPs and you get feedback on features that were already baked into the product and it was two years ago, right? And I know these people and they sat there and they would tell you none of my customers are using this. And it's like so that's a data point of two people. And this is the type of feedback you were getting. So there was a lot of pushback to Azure and at the time there were some valid concerns about it but for most people they just fear change. So Conor walks in, goes to the front of the room and he goes, "All right, you don't want to hear about the Azure. I'm not going to talk to you about Azure at all." And a handful of people in the room were like, "Oh, thank God, because I don't want to hear it." And he goes, "I'm going to spend the time today talking to you about containerized databases." And everybody in the room is like, "Yeah. Okay, sure. Let's have this."
Thomas LaRock (00:44:29):
So Conor proceeds to talk about the idea of a database as its own little containerized unit that can be basically picked up and moved to anywhere. And he details all of this in the talk and basically at the end of it he goes, "So what I just described to you is Azure." And for a bunch of people in the room like they were like confusion. Like, "Wait, that's it? That's what you've done here? That's what you built?" I remember sitting next to a Denny Cherry at the time and when you had detailed all that Denny and I were like, "Hell yeah, that makes way more sense right now. I wish you would've told us earlier, we'd been on board, but wow." That was just a brilliant way for you to control the conversation and lead a group of advocates to the place that you need them to be at for you. And I just thought it was brilliant, one of the best talks I've ever attended.
Rob Collie (00:45:26):
That does sound amazing. Microsoft has an obsession with nouns, I had to sort of slowly over time break myself of it. In fact, after a certain point in time of my career, I would start telling like new hires that were reporting to me as I was mentoring them, that they were not allowed to introduce any new nouns into the product. Not allowed to do it. It's only verbs things that we do for the user. That's what we do. Like our nouns are us just nerding out over some abstract concept, right? And so like, this is what happens, right? Like Azure, right? It's Azure, Azure, Azure, Azure, right? The default is to go out and talk about Azure rather than what it does for you. It's a very computer scientist, Microsoft disease that a lot of Microsoft especially when they're young suffer from. The prognosis is not always good for recovery and so I wasn't at that talk. I'd never heard this story before, but I love it. Just this little redirect, let's talk about what it does and then we'll put a name on it. We'll put a name on it at the end, but the name isn't the important thing.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:37):
So the other one that sticks with me, and this was around, I want to say 2010. I mean, I've got a lot of memories of MVP talks like Conor said some just go sideways.
Rob Collie (00:46:48):
This is basically a this is your life.
Thomas LaRock (00:46:50):
Oh, yeah. But no, so this is my impression. And this is what when I tell people that Microsoft is different now than when it used to be I mean I'm serious because I've seen a lot of it. But here's one, I think, great example and it's Query Store. So I'm sitting in this, God, I hope I'm not breaking my NDA at this point.
Rob Collie (00:47:14):
I don't know.
Thomas LaRock (00:47:16):
Okay. So I'm sitting in this talk, Conor comes in and he goes, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could persist performance data between a restart because that data usually gets flushed." And he wants to build this thing and store it inside of the database and he's going to call it the Query Store. And he basically asked the room, what's some of the stuff you'd want to see in there and we give him our feedback. Although I'm working for a software vendor that collects performance information. So there's some trepidation like are they about to put us out of the business? Like what's really about to happen? Conor's intent was never like oh, there are these handful of vendors out there we can just get all their business. That was never it, it was to build a better product to serve customers because everybody wants happy customers. And I remember him outlining it and I also remember how it took so long for that to make it into the product. I think it was six years, six years and this must have been like a side gig for you. You had a full-time job, but this was just something you did because you knew it was going to make things better. You would have more happy customers as a result and it probably wasn't even considered a priority for anyone in your office.
Conor Cunningham (00:48:32):
The Query Store was an idea that when I went back to Microsoft, I sort of developed that, refined it with the help of some of my peers and my managers at the time. And then it kept getting kind of just below the cut line of what we would go fund for one reason or another. And it was a frustrating time in that regard because I knew that this would be helpful. The reason for that is the process we have for dealing with customer support tickets is usually that customer support engineering organization will typically handle most cases when they have ones they can't handle those get escalated to the engineering team. And then people like me would look at them to go figure out, okay, here's how you answer that and figure out either how to do a hot fix or otherwise the answer to the customer's issue.
Conor Cunningham (00:49:16):
And then furthermore, there could be executive escalations where some big enough customer complains to some big enough person in Microsoft and then eventually things kind of roll downhill and then end up on my desk and I needed to go deal with this. And in both sets of cases, it typically boils down to if we only had X, this would just work. But the fundamental lesson there was when we first built SQL 7.O the query processor was very advanced, but there's a whole huge space of problems to solve. And eventually you realize that if you can push down some information into a store and learn from the last time you ran that same query, you can do better over time. It's a really simple concept, but in order to get to that, you had to take a system that wasn't built for that concept and add that on without breaking any of the existing customers that are running there.
Conor Cunningham (00:50:07):
And it took a while to get the design right. It took a while to get the perfect scale right. These days I pretty sure that no one would ever want to go back to the old days. And that includes the people who are tools under is on top of SQL, right? It's a definitely a better world and there's a lot of things that we're building now where we have learning algorithms that we're adding to the Query Store, so that we figure out how to make your app go faster or scale better without you ever doing anything. And it's a huge playground for us. It's just it took a lot longer that first time to get out because I think it got canceled three times and I had to resurrect it just out of sheer force of will. And there's reasons for that sometimes just about how Microsoft works and what it prioritizes sometimes strategically what we had to do in the industry.
Conor Cunningham (00:50:56):
They were all valid reasons at the time, even if I didn't always fully agree with them. I think now that we've had it out, though, people love it. It's on by default in every single SQL Azure database that you have, you can turn it on in SQL server and many customers do. So it's a huge thing that lets us make our customer's lives better, hopefully. And sometimes you have to just know up front that maybe it's the right thing to do, even when no one else will tell that to you. I'm now at the point where I'm basically only picking things like that to do whenever I get free time inside of Microsoft.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:28):
You're taking away a lot of nerd jobs, right? You're making SQL server better with less human intervention to do so. Fair statement?
Conor Cunningham (00:51:38):
I think Query Store specifically pivoted from a model where I'm going to give you a window into the inside of the engine of this car to here is an abstraction that is intended to be at the level of the database administrator or the DevOps person. And I want to make certain problems that required Conor or similar to Conor to solve to be democratized so that you don't need an expert to solve them. So yeah, definitely to the extent that that requires fewer labor dollars to be able to solve a problem, sure. But that also means you can spend your time doing more things for customers and stuff.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:15):
Yeah. That's why I want to ask you. So for the people that have traditionally focused on database engine and tuning and tasks, things related to deep dive diagnostics, right? So for those people, if some of this stuff, as you say is being democratized, there might be less of those things to do. Where should they be spending their time next? What should they be doing for those customers? What's the next thing for those people who really are engine only?
Conor Cunningham (00:52:42):
It's actually interesting because the query space is not one that I would say that they need to not know about. I would say that when you look at PaaS cloud offerings like SQL Azure, they have auto patching, auto backup, auto upgrade, auto change service tier, all that stuff goes away. So you don't necessarily need a sand person. You don't necessarily need a DBA that just does backup and restore. Those are the jobs that, that I think you probably shouldn't be focusing your time as much on that stuff. And there's still is actually a heavy value in my mind for a person who can take a database, especially if there's a company that has many of them and figure out how to tune them at scale. So one of the things that I do with very large companies that are like ISDs they have thousands of databases or hundreds of thousands of databases is we go figure out, okay, how do we take your app and tweak it so that maybe we trade off the ratios of memory to CPU, to IO, to disk, to tempDB to be to this or that.
Conor Cunningham (00:53:46):
How do we design your app so that it doesn't require as much money so that we can squeeze the cogs down so that you can work at internet scale overcommit people to the same resources and save money on your SQL licenses effectively. And that game is highly valuable if you have enough databases. So I think that figuring out where you have the skills to do that kind of work is still very relevant even in a world with Query Store. Granted, there's a certain class of problem that maybe will get degraded and you won't need to have to really think about as much as the Query Store gets better, but the Query Store is not getting better fast enough that that's going to be a worry for me before I retire or anyone else who's going to listen to this podcast. In the next 10, 20 years, they'll still be problems with queries and tuning and figuring out the right way to go position applications to be able to make them work well. I think Query Store will solve a category of basic common ones, but you shouldn't assume that that world is going away anytime soon.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:44):
So the world of tech of course, is changing very rapidly. I was wondering, so in my mind, what I think and this is very specific, I'm going to ask questions about AWS. And of course, AWS has some type of feature announcement like I don't know, a couple of dozen each day. So in my mind, I imagine Conor has some assistant somewhere inside Microsoft that gives them like a daily briefing and like an executive level summary. I mean how do you Conor, stay on top of all the changes that AWS is doing?
Conor Cunningham (00:55:16):
I got bad news for you, Thomas. I don't have a person that briefs me on this. There is a mail that gets sent around about the other competitive offerings that we see from big Microsoft competitors that they send around to the executives and they will call me an executive since I'm on the mail thread, but that's maybe a gross stretch of my job title. I think that the main thing that you have to go look at is which ones do you control and directly compete against? So there are things that any of our large competitors do come out with. We tend to look at them closely. We have some conversations internally and brainstorm how to react. It's only really like two or three times a year where that becomes frantic I would say. It's not that they're releasing a new database feature every day for example. It might be that they release something on their messaging queue system or their identity system or their security scanner. And I'm not the first person to need to react to those things.
Conor Cunningham (00:56:08):
I would say strategically, the part that is important for me is that I can meet customers where they are in terms of their design challenges and problems. And sometimes that means that they're on a competitive cloud compared to Azure. They could still use SQL. SQL is a huge business on AWS, but ultimately figuring out like how do we help them solve their problem is both a relationship discussion like a trust question of, can you give trusted advice to a customer as well as a technical solution piece? And we can do one without the other and we have, and we love being able to work with any customer that has a fun problem. And helping them solve those problems is really what we do independent of that. So I think we just kind of read up on them as we go through and some days I miss a few, but otherwise I put it on my to-do list each day to read about.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:54):
So I'll be pointed because I'm imagining this might be a hectic time because re:Invent is happening. re:Invent is happening for three weeks this year, which is a ridiculous thing, but that's a topic for a different day. Have you familiarized yourself with BabelFish yet?
Conor Cunningham (00:57:12):
Yes. I know what it is and I have a pretty good idea who built it.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:17):
Because to me, that's enabling customers to migrate data to the cloud, which is the ultimate goal. They're removing more barriers for the data to get there so I would love your thoughts.
Conor Cunningham (00:57:28):
So I'll just caution that I have not tried to play with it technically myself.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:32):
That's fine.
Conor Cunningham (00:57:33):
However, if you build a thing that sort of tries to fake the SQL server interface and have a different database engine underneath the covers, which is what that technology tries to do. I mean, obviously that would be in Amazon's interest, but at the same time, there are lots of technical differences across the various database engines. And it's likely that you're going to hit various challenges with that approach in the limit. It might work for a lot of the basic cases, just great. But as soon as you take a real application, I'd be very curious to know, does it always translate. Typically, when an application vendor tries to translate their software from any relational system that's of any age to SQL, when we talk to them, there's lots of challenges there because there's little nuanced differences that really matter, and they're not easy to fake, right?
Conor Cunningham (00:58:26):
So you have to figure out, okay, well do the data types lineup? Well, that's not even true across a lot of them just to start with, right? Forget the semantics of a query, or how does the procedure language work or what's the exception behavior. So I think that it's obviously a very aggressive, interesting technology, kudos to them for trying to do it. I would be curious to see does it work for any real mature app?
Rob Collie (00:58:49):
An example of what you're just saying there, Conor I think is I was still working on Office, I was in the Office Org when we went to the XML-based zipped file formats, which we now take for granted XLSX and DOCX and all of that kind of stuff. And there was a concern from the highest levels of Microsoft let's say it that way, that publishing the file format, making it open was going to enable the copycat Office Suites to steal our lunch money. And you know, it was really, it was coming from like the C-suite that opinion and that fear. And Chris Pratley, who worked on Word at the time, still at Microsoft, Chris Pratley had a different opinion. And I agreed with him, which was, it's not the file format. It's the behaviors. It's the behaviors of the application of PowerPoint, of Word, of Excel. Those are the hard things.
Rob Collie (00:59:46):
Take it a step further, we Microsoft office, the Excel team, if we were given the Excel file format and told, even as us knowing what we knew, go duplicate Excel, we would go build something that wasn't the same. It would absolutely drift quite a bit from Excel. Like it would not be compatible with Excel. Even the Excel team couldn't rebuild Excel unless you just gave us the source code, right? Then we could probably do it. Software is again, it's not the noun, right? The storage is the noun. That doesn't count until things move. It's all the behaviors, the verbs, the flows, all of that kind of stuff. That stuff is loaded with nuance and it's a trickier beast than most people expect.
Conor Cunningham (01:00:33):
Yeah. So there's definitely challenges there and again, I haven't tried any of it yet, so I'm not trying to go speak ill of a competitor. I'd just be curious to learn more since you asked about it. That's an area that we were talking about internally that would be definitely something that I would personally want to learn more about.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:52):
Before I forget, there's one thing I want to point out and that is the three of us are all Jeep owners.
Rob Collie (01:01:01):
I did not know that.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:03):
I believe Conor just bought himself a brand new red Jeep within the past year?
Conor Cunningham (01:01:08):
A year or so ago I bought a red Jeep, yeah. And one of the new Wranglers and I've been very happy with it. My daughter is also very happy with it and we have fun driving it. I got a GOBI rack on top of it. And it's quite nice looking.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:23):
Oh, if you have a Jeep you have to accessorize. That's just the rule.
Conor Cunningham (01:01:26):
I want to do more but with the pandemic and everything I've just been kind of waiting. I want to put a winch on it. I don't need a winch, but it just seems cool to have one.
Thomas LaRock (01:01:34):
Exactly.
Conor Cunningham (01:01:35):
Right. No, but I really wish I had reached this level of Nirvana in car ownership far, far earlier in life than I have, but definitely I've been enjoying my jeep.
Rob Collie (01:01:44):
It's like the people that get really excited about their gaming computers and they're like blinging it out with neon and stuff like that same, whatever that itch is, Oh, look at that. Yeah. See, so you already had this itch you know.
Conor Cunningham (01:01:59):
I also had that itch. Yes.
Rob Collie (01:02:01):
Yeah. We told some very flattering Conor stories. Let's tell some others.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:07):
All right. I don't think I have any.
Rob Collie (01:02:08):
Oh, I know because you didn't live with him, right? I lived with him when he was still wearing diapers, you know? I mean he was a baby and so as I. This one actually, isn't a story about Conor really it's just about sort of like nerdom in general and how it can kind of overflow its banks. So I came home from work one day and I walked in the front door and I turned to my right and I looked into Scott's room and Scott and Conor were both in there and it looked like some sort of like tech bomb had gone off. The computers all had their covers off. There were wires strewn everywhere. I mean, there were cards laying here, cards laying there and they both looked like they'd been at this for a while like they were exhausted. And I was like, "Guys, what is going on? Now, keep in mind this was like probably like 1998. And I go, "What is going on here?" And without any hint of irony or humor, I forget who it was, one of them turned to me and said, "Well, we bought the new Windows phone."
Rob Collie (01:03:21):
And this was a phone, a landline phone that was meant to like give you like additional voicemail inboxes and you could have different outgoing voicemails for each person calling you and all of that. And I was just looking at them and at that moment, my Grinch heart grew three sizes that day. Like I actually, I developed as a human being in that moment standing in that hallway. I just started laughing my ass off. And I'm like 100 years of dial tone and here comes Microsoft. I'm like, "Well, what's wrong?" They're like, "Well, we can't get a dial tone." And I started laughing even harder and I start to sort of like non-ironically asking them all the questions like, "Well, have you rebooted? Have you installed the new drivers?"
Rob Collie (01:04:10):
It's like, we should not be allowed under like penalty of death as digital engineers to F up something so fundamental. If you're going to get into that game, if you're going to get into that game, you have to do it with a consumer mindset. And this was Microsoft is just typically not that thing you know, it's just hilarious. And I think you guys eventually got it working, but it took hours.
Conor Cunningham (01:04:37):
Yeah. It's amazing that Microsoft is not a cell phone provider today, right?
Rob Collie (01:04:42):
Oh, yeah. So shocking.
Conor Cunningham (01:04:44):
It definitely was a nerdy piece of tech from old Microsoft back in the old days before we really changed how we do development. I had completely forgotten that we had that and this story I had purged from my mind, but I chuckle inside.
Rob Collie (01:05:01):
Burned in my brain, right? And after that, it kind of became like a way that I could sort of like sort people. When I would be talking to someone in a meeting, you know, we'd be debating like whether something would be good for users or not or whatever. Again, this is like me after I'd grown a bit, I'd asked him, "Do you have a Windows Media Center PC at home?" And if they said yes, then I could decide to not trust them with regard to users or human beings ever again. Like they were willing to bring this complicated thing into their TV appliance supply chain.
Conor Cunningham (01:05:36):
I admit that I have tried to do this and failed on multiple occasions and I keep trying, for whatever reason. It's like I still want a media PC and then it just would fail miserably.
Rob Collie (01:05:46):
I can't help it. I've got the itch. But you know, this is Microsoft strength, right? Like Apple could never build Excel. They tried. Their Numbers app was a piece of crap you know. They could never build SQL server. They could never build Power BI, but they build amazing consumer tech. They really do.
Conor Cunningham (01:06:08):
Well, they're a hardware company, not a software company.
Rob Collie (01:06:11):
Yeah. I mean, you know, if Steve were here, he'd probably say they were like a lifestyle or experiences company even, right? Like very different emotional tone behind that. You mentioned that you've sort of like running out of time to do presentations. And that's one of the reasons why it's sort of like is driven you in almost like into a more authentic direction. If you don't have time to prep, you certainly don't have time to like put lipstick on the pig or whatever, right? Like you're just going to go in and be yourself. I sort of sympathize with half of it and then like the other half is the opposite. I can't help, but be working on a presentation. And my presentations aren't bullet points, they're all animated stories. They're all stick figure animations that tell stories and things, but I can't help but be messing with that stuff even like five minutes before going on stage.
Rob Collie (01:06:58):
So one thing that you and I have in common, Conor is that when someone asks me in advance for my slide deck, that person is going to be very disappointed when they ask me. And they'd be very disappointed when they ask you, there is no such thing, right? It doesn't exist. But I don't work on those slides or the presentation or the demo or any of that until I get on the plane to go to the conference. That's the rule. That's what the airplane is for, that's what the hotel is for. So I do, I put it off, right? Because I don't have time. There's no way that I would end up prioritizing the presentation over the other things going on in my job until I go to the airport. But I don't go to the airport anymore. My routine, my workflow has been broken so I had this four hour webinar that would have been like a pre-conference session in the old days. I had that this week.
Rob Collie (01:07:52):
Now that's like the night before and I haven't done anything, you know? And then the next morning, I mean, good news is I'd already given this talk in previous years. So it didn't take much prep, but I think I would have been in real trouble because I would have woken up that morning and gone, oh, boy where was the airplane? Where was the hotel? That's my lab for this stuff. It's a different world now.
Conor Cunningham (01:08:13):
I had a presentation that I gave for a conference in the UK SQLBits and I had to give it virtually. And I had a lot of trouble getting motivated to get the slides done and give a presentation because I feed off of the energy in the room whenever I'm talking and I didn't get to do any of that. It was very disconcerting to try to just sit here in my office and talk to the microphone and hope that that turned out okay.
Rob Collie (01:08:37):
We've always at P3, we've always been a remote company and we've always done a lot of remote work for our clients because it's super efficient. We definitely prefer to start a relationship with a new client in-person, at least once. We've been deprived of that now, you know, I mean, everyone has, so in a way it's sort of like by leveling the playing field like we're actually doing even better than normal because we're built 100% always, we were always a remote company. We were remote company before it was cool, you know? So I was actually going to ask you about that. So you've actually been a remote "employee" of Microsoft HQ. Your job would traditionally 100% have been a Redmond thing. And when you moved back to Texas, you did you left Microsoft because that kind of job just, mm-hmm (negative) no, it had to be there in Redmond.
Rob Collie (01:09:29):
And some number of years later, they relaxed that. And it was almost kind of like it was sort of in the era of one-off, it was like a special exception that they'd have to make to do something like that. But it's becoming much, much more common even if you live in Redmond, you're not going into the office right now. Do you have any direct reports? Are you responsible for other professional human beings?
Conor Cunningham (01:09:51):
I actually have been building a small team here in Austin, Texas where I live. So I have two or three people now reporting to me and that's another part of my job, but I started doing that earlier this year. And part of the idea was that I wanted to travel just a little bit less and to have an excuse to travel a little bit less by investing in the career growth of some individuals here in town, and to eventually build a relationship with the university since it's a top 10 computer science school, that kind of thing. So there's a lot of things I've been trying to sort of keep my career fresh and interesting and that's what I've been up to lately. So yeah, it's another one of my 10 fun things to do each day.
Rob Collie (01:10:32):
Your real masterstroke in terms of not traveling as much was to engineer the Corona virus and distributed via 5G, you know.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:41):
That was a brilliant stroke. Yes.
Rob Collie (01:10:43):
I mean, it's like, look, I've got these direct reports to kind of tie me here, but just in case.
Conor Cunningham (01:10:52):
Yeah. I mean, it's obviously been a weird year and ironically had been working out of my house for 10, 11 plus years when I'm here. And then I was getting kind of bored of it so I got space in the Microsoft office here in town and I was all ready to go work there. I would get up in the morning and take a shower and put on pants and go. And that went on for about like four months and then everything went sideways and now I'm back here sitting in my workout clothes, not quite sure what on earth happened.
Rob Collie (01:11:23):
And now that team that you've hired in Austin like they could move to Guatemala.
Conor Cunningham (01:11:28):
Yeah. For the most part like I've seen each of the people that report to me here in town exactly one day in- person each. And that's a little bit of a weird experience I talk to them all the time. Every day we talk sometimes multiple times a day, but it is a different experience and obviously we're all having to adjust this year. It's been a very strange year.
Rob Collie (01:11:48):
You're interacting with your team more than I'm interacting with my kids. My kids live less than a mile away, but because they're living a normal teenage life, essentially, they're still out dating and all that other kinds of stuff. And we weren't really able to reach a consensus between me and their mom on how to handle that, so path of least resistance they just live with their mom full-time now. So yeah, the irony of having people close to you, even geographically, but you don't see them very much. It's a weird, weird, weird thing. It's even hard to watch movies now. Like you watch a movie and you see people like sitting in a conference room together you're like, "Uh, you shouldn't be doing that." It's weird.
Conor Cunningham (01:12:35):
All the time. Yeah. I think there's definitely going to be a before and an after for this whole thing. And it's not just about how you record sitcoms or movies. It's also going to be a lot of the cultural references and stuff will just all be different once we get done with this.
Rob Collie (01:12:52):
So do you think and you don't really have any special knowledge about this I think you can comment without speaking out of school, do you think Microsoft is going to remain a primarily remote company? Do you think they'll rather than ask it as a binary, how much of the remote culture do you think is going to stick around after all of this?
Conor Cunningham (01:13:11):
They've made some changes policy-wise and I think that remote work, or at least partial remote work will become more common. There's definitely some cultural parts that's been helpful. As a person who was the only remote employee in a meeting, they would often have this thing that happens when everyone gets excited in a meeting where they all talk over each other and they never stopped to ask if anyone on the phone has anything to say. Now with everyone being remote, everyone's had to experience whenever they've been unable to share their thoughts. And I actually think that the culture around that and forcing everyone to go through that experience will help us to be a better company when we get done, because it will change how you do meetings. It'll change how you make sure you're inclusive in meetings and making sure that you just have the right protocol for doing that to keep everyone up to speed and feeling like they're part of the team.
Rob Collie (01:14:05):
That's a very optimistic view, isn't it? I hope you're right.
Conor Cunningham (01:14:08):
I think that there's obviously going to be... Microsoft has always been a Seattle company, but there are a lot of attempts to get it to be less exclusively so. I think it will be a 10 year journey to get to a different spot and maybe some of the other tech companies are a bit more geographically distributed, the big tech companies. But I think Microsoft definitely I don't know if you've been up to Redmond recently, Rob, but the original buildings one through 10 are just a giant hole in the ground last time I was up there. Because they tore them all down and they're building another huge like Uber campus on top of that space that holds more people. And the problem is that it's just really hard to build buildings fast enough for the company to grow at the rate that it wants.
Conor Cunningham (01:14:54):
So I think there's actually some just geographic constraints that make it hard to put everyone in one spot. The traffic's not good, the house prices are expensive as you and I know I wasn't a huge fan of the climate in Seattle. So I think there are people that you would want to have at the company that might want to live elsewhere. And it's perfectly fine if you get the right model to be able to operate that way. It's a possibility that I think was less... I think the pandemic will help Microsoft consider that more aggressively than it would have otherwise.
Rob Collie (01:15:24):
I hope when they tore down those buildings like seven, eight, nine, and 10, that they were really careful to search them for people who were lost inside them before they tore them down. Because those buildings were really an afront to humanity, they kind of needed to be torn down. They probably were some sort of like combined antenna for summoning Satan or something. I'm glad to hear that those things have been put to rest.
Conor Cunningham (01:15:46):
Yeah. People, when you would first start at Microsoft, one of the things you would do is you'd send them to a meeting in building seven. There was no building seven and then eight, nine, 10 they were these weird, not quite diamond shapes in parts of them. And then if you follow the lines for like, okay, office numbers X through Y are this way. You could follow each of the signs and be stuck in an infinite loop forever. And so we would just send people to various meeting rooms with a particular office number that we knew that they couldn't get to by following the rules, unless they just sort of wander around randomly. And it was a good introduction to how not to design a building.
Rob Collie (01:16:22):
Oh, it was awful. Then they started like painting certain hallways different colors so that you'd sort of have some sense of where you were, but all it did was just make you feel like you were lost in a circus tent. And it just was like the worse.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:34):
Would you do this to people you like?
Rob Collie (01:16:37):
What's the difference?
Conor Cunningham (01:16:39):
Yeah. We would do this for every new hire.
Rob Collie (01:16:42):
Yeah. If you like him, you did it to him. If you didn't like him, you did it to him.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:46):
I think Conor, you once asked to meet me in building seven now that I figure.
Conor Cunningham (01:16:49):
Probably.
Rob Collie (01:16:52):
Like I said, I hope there wasn't someone still wandering around in an infinite loop sent by Conor when the wrecking ball came.
Conor Cunningham (01:16:59):
Yeah. I wasn't there when they tore them down so I can't say for sure, but I haven't heard of any suspicious deaths. So we're hopefully they're all okay.
Rob Collie (01:17:08):
Microsoft has been geographically distributing, like you know our old friend, Jamie he's in North Carolina. He now, I guess tactically works for GitHub after the acquisition, but he's been Microsoft, he never left Microsoft when he moved across the country. So yeah, it's a really an interesting new era. And one of the things that I have found, we were essentially like forced into a remote model from the very beginning, because the talent in our space, especially five years ago, you weren't going to find it in a particular location. And you weren't going to be able to get people to relocate either. So our hand was forced, but it was actually amazing because it allowed us to pull from the absolute largest possible talent pool. I think it's an advantage. I think it's a huge advantage.
Rob Collie (01:17:57):
Working remotely allows you to set a quality bar in a place that you can't, if you're geographically-oriented, you know. Back when we were youngsters like were leaving college okay, fine. You're expecting to move somewhere, but once you've been established somewhere, you're part of a community somewhere moving sucks. No one wants to do that.
Conor Cunningham (01:18:18):
It is definitely a big choice and I think that giving people flexibility to work remotely is a great thing if we can do it. I think we're lucky to be in industries that can largely be done remote and I've been-
Rob Collie (01:18:32):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very, very fortunate.
Conor Cunningham (01:18:33):
Yeah. Very, very thankful that this year I just have to focus on trying to make sure that team stays working and things like that so that everyone can work from home safely until we have a different circumstances on the ground.
Rob Collie (01:18:45):
Well, I've really, really enjoyed this. And again, a manufactured excuse to speak with an old friend. Conor, thank you so much.
Conor Cunningham (01:18:53):
Hey, it's been fun. Thanks for having me.
Announcer (01:18:55):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data By P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P lukep@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Austin Senseman is a former P3 team member who went on to start his own business, Conserv, an internet of things startup company in the conservation space. Conserv does important work to help preserve historical artifacts in museums and private collections by using sensors and analytics. We talk about historical artifacts and the data that is used in preserving them, the infamous P3 Interview Of Death, dealing with Investors, business ethics and so much more.
Episode Timeline:
- 1:45 - Meeting Austin, a Talking Heads reference, and Austin nearly reveals his secret password!
- 5:15 - Sports-team allegiance is important, especially in the South
- 7:20 - Austin's company, Conserv, won a huge pitch competition this week and Austin explains what Conserve does
- 9:00 - Sensors and IoT devices that Conserv uses, and how to handle the challenge of networking and collecting the massive amount data from these things
- 14:00 - To buy something or to build something, what's a better path? The Black Market, and the hilarious story of The Backstroke Of The West
- 18:15 - Dealing with Investors in the startup space
- 20:40 - The analytics of Conserv, and how the physical world enters the equation
- 27:00 - Artifact care standards, how precise conditions must be to preserve these historical treasures, and the data that's behind it
- 33:00 - Rob mentions the Vasa Museum and a running joke is born!
- 37:10 - The importance of preserving historical artifacts
- 46:00 - Rob asks Austin his least favorite question. What other applications can this tech be used for?
- 51:00 - The grossness of the predatory extraction business model
- 59:10 - The infamous P3 Interview Of Death, and how it factors into how P3 perfected remote hiring
- 1:12:35 - It's not personal, it's just business...is just garbage and the amusing applicant story
- 1:16:30 - How Conserv used Power BI embedded, and the challenges he had to overcome with using it
- 1:29:00 - Celebrating as a business owner, and Custom Emojis in our Slack channel
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome everyone to another edition of Raw Data by P3. Now I am really personally very happy with this one. Today's guest is Austin Senseman. Austin is kind of like a brother at this point. He was absolutely integral to a formative phase here at P3. He was here when things were quite a bit more chaotic than they are today, when we were figuring things out. So he and I have basically like shared a foxhole while under artillery fire and like any good brothers we've also turned artillery on each other on multiple occasions.
Rob Collie (00:00:33):
And now Austin is, for the last year and a half, he's been the co-founder of a startup called Conserve an internet of things, analytics startup in the conservation space, preserving artifacts and museums and things of that nature. We cover a lot of ground in this episode. Among other things, we talk about hiring talk about the sequence of startups, we talk about the somewhat elusory line between business and personal, we talk about the somewhat predatory nature of the startup industry and industry in general and how hard it is to swim upstream against that current. We take a Renaissance era engineering failure and turn it into a running joke. And in general, I think we just had a very stimulating conversation. I personally enjoyed this one quite a bit and hope you do as well. So let's after it.
Announcer (00:01:24):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (00:01:28):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:46):
Welcome to the show. Austin, stop making Senseman. Can we make Talking Heads jokes in 2020? Do people get those? I mean, I suppose we should probably... If we're going to do Talking Heads 2020 should be burning down the house. Yes?
Austin Senseman (00:02:00):
Well, I'll say I'm sharing a bit of my own informational security here, but when you first set me up with a Power Pivot Pro account, you made a password for me that was talking heads inspired. And there's a version of that password that I still use to this day. Of course it's been, it's been augmented in some ways, so, but yeah...
Rob Collie (00:02:17):
Oh yeah. I mean, we know how it, how it works, right? You just capitalize a letter. You swap a letter out for a symbol, a number, the E turns into a three. We know the drill and so does every hacker on the planet, but when you consider that the most commonly stolen password is still 12345 there's safety in numbers.
Austin Senseman (00:02:35):
Is that not a good one? Is that a bad one?
Rob Collie (00:02:37):
It is apparently the same thing that evil overlords have on their luggage.
Austin Senseman (00:02:40):
I'm taking some notes here. Hold on one second.
Rob Collie (00:02:43):
Yeah. We're definitely showing our age here. Although, if you don't know these references, you don't really know how old we are do you? So Austin, Austin, Austin, we've had an interesting journey together. Haven't we?
Austin Senseman (00:02:55):
Oh my gosh. It's really been one of the highlights of my last five, 10 years of my life, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:03:00):
Oh, wow. I'm really pleased considering that a big chunk of the last five, 10 years of your life was spent with us. I'm glad that it was a highlight. You were one of the elite first few to pass the interview of death back in 2015 and ended up being an integral part of the leadership team here at the company during a very formative and chaotic era. And then you left right before things calmed down and got really dialed in. You really picked a fine time to leave us, Lucille. You missed out on the smooth water, but boy, that was some interesting years in the beginning. Wasn't it?
Austin Senseman (00:03:35):
I'm glad when I left things got calmer. I don't know what you were trying to communicate there.
Rob Collie (00:03:39):
No, I really just think you, you just kind of missed out. I don't think there's any connection between your departure and it wasn't like things that immediately better, either. Things had to get even harder for a little bit, but I told you the other day that I feel like today, we really could do all the things that you were really eager to do back then. We just weren't big enough really to support yet. So we'd be a great place for you now.
Austin Senseman (00:04:05):
Yeah. One thing I've come to appreciate more in starting my own business is sort of the sequence of things in a business. And if you haven't really lived through it, you don't have a good sense of what to do first, second, third, fourth, and fifth. And it can be kind of counterintuitive sometimes. Because a lot of it's about like, well, what do we not do now? What do we do later? And so, yeah, we were really early with Power Pivot Pro and sort of this transition to what it is today. And we jumped into it and tried to do a lot at once. And I think things got calmer when you recognized there was a little bit more of a sequence to it and there was some things we could wait to do and what was the priority? It just... It helps to know the recipe,
Rob Collie (00:04:46):
Every two weeks there's a blowing off steam moment where we talk about thanks to Austin, we're still tied to this thing called Pardot. We've spent a lot of money on that thing now and any day, I'm sure it's going to pay off.
Austin Senseman (00:05:03):
That's an Indianapolis company.
Rob Collie (00:05:05):
I don't think so. I think sales... No Exact Target is the one that was in Indianapolis that was bought by Salesforce. Let's please, please, please, please. And it's just happened to be the place I live now anyway, it's not like I'm on that team.
Austin Senseman (00:05:18):
Fair.
Rob Collie (00:05:20):
We've talked about that before on the show, if you have a sports team that you root for and you use the word we to refer to the sports team, something a little off there. You're not on the field, you're not on the court.
Austin Senseman (00:05:33):
Well, I think growing up in Alabama, II haven't heard a different way of doing it. I think there's...
Rob Collie (00:05:38):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (00:05:40):
There's a fair bit of that going on between Alabama and Auburn. So...
Rob Collie (00:05:43):
Well, it's really just the Southeastern corner of the United States, including Texas. I grew up in Florida and I moved elsewhere and I saw how other people viewed their college football team. And they would describe themselves as fans. They would say all the same things. Like, "Yeah, I'm a huge dyed in the wool rider..." But I was always like really disappointed in them because they never really took it seriously. For the first few years living in the Pacific Northwest, I was like, "Oh, you wimps, you think you take this seriously?" And even the big 10, the Midwest isn't as serious about it as they are down south. And which team you root for when you ask... It's sort of like when you're meeting someone new in the south....
Austin Senseman (00:06:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:27):
... And you ask someone, "Whoa, so what college football team?" The answer you're about to receive is actually going to impact the future relationship. It is input into how your relationship is going to be. How friendly it's going to be. It's that serious.
Austin Senseman (00:06:41):
It's a way to sort of exchange status for sure. So we won this pitch competition this week and I was talking to one of the judges afterwards and I said, "Look, that wasn't our best performance." And he said, "Well, look, look, look, an ugly loss is much better than a beautiful win." And I said, "You're an Auburn fan, aren't you?" And he said, "Yeah, I am." But we knew, it's just right there. So it's just woven into really every everything you talk about, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:07:10):
While we're at it... So you used the word we there and that time I think the use of we is appropriate. Right? But I won't use the word we, it was your we. We'll circle back to the P3 experience, but you say you won a pitch competition this week. Congratulations.
Austin Senseman (00:07:24):
Thanks.
Rob Collie (00:07:24):
What kind of pitch? What kind of company? What are you up to these days?
Austin Senseman (00:07:26):
Yeah, so the company's called Conserve. We've been at this two years. I say, we, this is me and my co-founder Nathan. And we build sensors and analytics to help people take care of art collections, but collections beyond that. So really cultural heritage. So things that we together have decided are worth keeping around for our children and grandchildren. And the way people do that is they take care of the environment in the right way. So the humidity can't get too high. The temperature can't fluctuate, too much. The lights can't be too bright. And if any of those things aren't quite right, then over time, things fall apart. So we collect data through sensors and we try to turn that into information for people so they can make good decisions around what to do. Yeah. So we won hundred thousand dollars this week, non dilutive capital, meaning they just a check and they're not on your cap table. It's just a huge piece of validation. And it's going to allow us to do some things growth wise this year that we wouldn't have done otherwise.
Rob Collie (00:08:29):
Now you might not know this, but Tom works for monitoring Goliath, Solar Winds. You might be gaining the attention of the predator in the pond. They're like, "Wait a second. We've been monitoring databases and everything. We could be monitoring art collections?"
Austin Senseman (00:08:51):
Yeah. Yeah. We love to try to compete against people that try to do everything. We just, we eat their lunch.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:57):
The thing I'm intrigued though, is it's not the art collection. It's just the... It's the IOT.
Austin Senseman (00:09:03):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:03):
It's the IOT devices and their deployment and the challenge of monitoring that type thing. So how we think is we're like, "I don't know. The city of Jacksonville has deploying IOT to all of their streetlights and they need to know that these devices are online, up, down." And that's... It's a challenge. That's where sometimes let's say our gaze goes to because monitoring the server and this database, that's easy. We've been doing that stuff forever. IOT, that's a different ballgame right now.
Rob Collie (00:09:41):
What is IOT? I mean, I know that it's objects, sensors connected to the internet, internet of things. Okay. I get that. But then I dig a little deeper with you guys and I discover, oh no, you got to have this special kind of hotspot. What's going on with that? And if the city of Jacksonville is deploying, IOT sensors in their streetlights, is there an antenna on each one? How are we networking these things? And why do we network them differently was really, really kind of fascinating to me.
Austin Senseman (00:10:13):
Yeah. Because you know, 5G gets so much press when you think about wireless technologies and it's probably the most irrelevant piece of tech for IOT. Because IOT is generally large scaled deployments, lots of sensors. And most of those projects, those sensors are sending small amounts of data. Is this light on, is there a car in this parking spot? What's the temperature and what's the wind speed or air quality, things like that. And so this is not like streaming Netflix. And so the wireless and networking technologies that go into this are really different. They're kind of unsexy in a way we use something called lorawan. That's a popular or technology in the IOT space. But, you're not going to read about that in the Wall Street Journal, but it powers a lot of what goes on in this world.
Rob Collie (00:11:06):
But are you going to switch to 5G when it's time for your museum sensors to light up and start the mind control project? I mean that's what... Or is it for distributing COVID? I get confused.
Austin Senseman (00:11:18):
I thought we were... I was sure we weren't going to talk about that, but...
Rob Collie (00:11:23):
Yeah. That's that's phase two.
Austin Senseman (00:11:28):
But yeah, IOT, it is ultimately about sensors and lots of them. And so the real challenge isn't necessarily the sensors that part's sort of commoditized and figured out in a way it's just the sheer amount of data you have. I mean, it's just a noisy, noisy kind of problem. And then how do you take all of that and deliver something that's information that someone can look at and do something with. So IOT is really an analytics problem. But everyone talks about the sensors and all this, but it's really about humans trying to make this stuff work for humans. Now there's a whole other side of it, where the sensors are talking to each other and they're talking to machines and that's a different and important, but a different sort of problem. We don't do that as much. We're really trying to use the data to enable a human, to do something.
Rob Collie (00:12:15):
You mentioned that the sensors sort of garner a lot of the gravity of attention. And I guess that kind of makes sense. Doesn't it? Human beings, we tend to sort of intuitively focus our attention on the thing. That's tangible that we can see that we can touch. You tell someone, "Oh, we work in business intelligence and analytics and data platform." And maybe they get that, maybe they don't. But if they don't and then you say, "We make dashboards." They go, "Oh, dashboards." Right? It's that thing. And they only... They have no idea what's powering it. They only weigh it in their mind by the count of pixels that they see on the screen. That's the whole existence of the whole thing to them. And we shouldn't expect differently, I guess. It's just, when you get too close to things, you start to lose the natural human perspective. But yeah, when I think of IOT, just real talk like, oh yeah. Sensors.
Austin Senseman (00:13:09):
Yeah, absolutely. And try to position yourself as a solution provider in IOT. Meaning we don't show up and sell a sensor. We try to compete against people that that is what they do. They say, "Oh yeah, we sell sensors." And we say, "Oh no, no, no, no, no. We don't just sell a sensor. We have a solution to help you take better care of your art collection." And so you're really trying to position yourself, when you're really focused on a particular problem and a niche, away from being a sensor company. We don't just sell you this box. We're trying to empower you to do this job well and turns out that's hard because at the end of the day, people will say, "Yeah, but you're going to sell me this sensor, right? And we say "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's part of it."
Rob Collie (00:13:49):
Don't you worry.
Austin Senseman (00:13:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:51):
We've got sensors.
Austin Senseman (00:13:52):
Yeah. We've got that covered.
Rob Collie (00:13:55):
Let's beat the sensor thing to death first. Let's really grind it into the ground.
Austin Senseman (00:13:58):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:13:59):
Didn't you invest some time in something custom at some point, like some custom hardware. I remember you talking about like a particular device, a particular board or something like that. Are you still on that custom thing with the hardware or did you end up kind of switching up?
Austin Senseman (00:14:16):
Yeah. So if you're building IOT, you're pretty quickly looking at, do we buy something or build something, right? And we had a strong desire to buy instead of build. But we were very customer driven early. We were asking people what they needed and lorawan is this new technology, just as a side note, really a quick, lorawan's like a really long range technology. So your wifi doesn't make it to the end of your house, but this kind of stuff, you put one router in a very large museum and it covers the whole place. And it's very low power. The batteries last a long time.
Austin Senseman (00:14:50):
So we wanted to build a lorawan device and there just wasn't anything out there that was up to spec. People wanted temperature, relative humidity, light, vibration at a pretty specific level of accuracy. And so we ended up building something and building hardware is difficult. I will say I'm really glad we're sort of on the other side of that. But yeah, hopefully that lorawan ecosystem will mature a little bit. At some point we will be buying stuff. I mean, Nathan always jokes that if we got this thing built in China and Alibaba stole the spec and then they just started making it for cheaper. That'd be great. We would just buy it from them.
Rob Collie (00:15:25):
That's hilarious.
Austin Senseman (00:15:26):
So maybe that's what we'll do.
Rob Collie (00:15:29):
Please steal it.
Austin Senseman (00:15:30):
Please steal.
Rob Collie (00:15:31):
The black market version will be more cost effective for us.
Austin Senseman (00:15:33):
That's right. That's right.
Rob Collie (00:15:37):
As long as the quality is the same. Have you heard about the backstroke of the west?
Austin Senseman (00:15:43):
Go on.
Rob Collie (00:15:44):
So funny, this was a DVD that you could buy on the street in China. It was Star Wars, Episode Five, the Empire Strikes Back. Okay? But it had gone through a round trip of translation just for historical... So someone had created a version that was dubbed in Chinese. So they translated all the dialogue from English to Chinese. And that version had been circulating for a while. And then when someone wanted to produce a version that they could sell to English speaking people, they took that version and subtitled it in English. And so by the time the Empire Strikes Back made it through that round trip. It was the backstroke of the west. And there's all kinds of internet memes about this. They did this whole series. It wasn't just Empire Strikes Back. They did the whole thing. Right? And so like when Vader screams, "No." At the end of episode three, the screen says in giant letters "Do not want." So you don't want that version of your hardware now, do you?
Austin Senseman (00:16:57):
I had some real life experiences with some of that. I lived in China and you'd get off the subway and people would have all these DVDs like out on a blanket and you see this in other markets too. So we would buy some of these. And I have to say the winner in this category was the Count of Monte Cristo. Someone had subtitled it with pornography. I'm not... Truly not kidding. It was just like an hour and a half of that. And it made it a lot more fun to watch, honestly, because yeah, it's not one of my favorites.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:27):
I was going to say, it's interesting how you knew exactly how long it was. So you saw...
Austin Senseman (00:17:30):
Yeah, yeah. An hour, one hour and 34 minutes. It was...
Rob Collie (00:17:34):
Yeah. Not counting the credit.
Austin Senseman (00:17:36):
It's hard to keep... That's a lot of attention. That's a long time.
Rob Collie (00:17:41):
Oh yeah. I so badly want to explore this topic for...
Austin Senseman (00:17:49):
This is not the sort of things we want to happen in our hardware.
Rob Collie (00:17:53):
No, definitely not. So earlier we were talking about sensors being sort of commoditized, there's actually a little bit of originality in temporary intellectual property that you wish would be stolen even there, even at that layer so I think that's pretty cool. I understand the desire to buy in that situation. I totally do, but it's still pretty cool, right?
Austin Senseman (00:18:13):
Oh, it's awesome. And...
Rob Collie (00:18:14):
I know.
Austin Senseman (00:18:15):
Investors are haters on this topic, right? You talk to everyone, they're like, "Oh don't do hardware. If you do hardware, we're not going to talk to you." It's like,... So there's this perception it's totally knee jerk, right? That they just don't want to be involved in that. Because it's kind of knee jerk, you sort of get the sense that if you do go and get involved and you do it well that you have this moat around you because it is hard, but it's not that hard. Right? And if you structure your business model in the right way, you can still earn the margins you want and build a good business around it. But man, you listen to a lot of knee jerk negativity around it, early from a certain group of people.
Rob Collie (00:18:54):
Wow. I would not expect that. I would think completely differently. As an investor, which I'm not, if I were, I'd be into the people that were so driven that they weren't going to accept what was off the shelf. They didn't set out to be our hardware company, but like look for customer satisfaction reasons we just can't do it otherwise. And we're not going to be stopped by the lack of... I'd admire that. Maybe we'll get into this, but I do think there's a lot wrong with the investor mindset in the startup space. So it doesn't shock me to find that there's yet another thing that I would disagree with there.
Austin Senseman (00:19:34):
Yeah. You sort of think that investors are showing up with a very unique perspective about the world, they know some secrets maybe that other people don't and that allows them to see things other people don't and certainly the best investors show up like that. But it is largely a herd. And I hope none of my investors are listening to this now, but they're the specialists. They're the special ones.
Rob Collie (00:19:56):
They're not part of that group thing.
Austin Senseman (00:19:58):
Yeah. No, that's absolutely true. I mean, I do want to say if anyone is listening, just you do become really grateful for the people that early, they are sort of betting on you. It's like because early it's like, well I've got an idea. You got any customers? No. Do you have a product? No. Right? So you are very grateful for the people that show up early and kind of walk alongside you as you do this hard stuff.
Rob Collie (00:20:21):
So let's talk about the analytics side.
Austin Senseman (00:20:23):
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've yeah... Do you know something about this?
Rob Collie (00:20:25):
I might know a thing or two about that area. Recognizing that you are at your core, a hardware company let's...
Austin Senseman (00:20:35):
Yeah. We'll see if we can transition this topic.
Rob Collie (00:20:37):
Yeah. Let me see if you can figure it out. I mean like, you know...
Austin Senseman (00:20:40):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:20:42):
Let's talk about that. What do analytics look like for this? You guys have a software product that goes with it actually kind of a suite of them, don't you?
Austin Senseman (00:20:50):
Yeah. I mean the software is where the value... That's where the human sort of interacts with the product and that's where we drive value. So the core of it, it's just real time data coming off these things, which, we know how useful really that is for people.
Rob Collie (00:21:06):
Yeah. I mean, I'm really, really keenly interested in sensor number seven on Tuesday at 7:35 AM. Can we get the temperature every two seconds? Because I really need to know that.
Austin Senseman (00:21:19):
You wouldn't be the first person that had asked that. Right? And it's like, okay, well how quickly can your building manage system respond to things? You press the button... I mean, think about your house. These are much larger buildings. The granularity kind of your control system is every 15 minutes, that kind of thing. So people also ask for really precise things. Can you give me a temperature number that's a 10th of a degree? And it's like, well, we can, but again, your control system doesn't even have that level of granularity. So yeah, there aren't levers you can pull where that would be helpful. So...
Rob Collie (00:21:55):
Meaning like the HVAC controls that would adjust the temperature?
Austin Senseman (00:21:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:59):
They only accept new input at 15 minute intervals. They're like, sorry, you got to wait until the next train.
Austin Senseman (00:22:04):
Well they accept it in real time. Right? But sort of how quickly it can actually... Like think about your house.
Rob Collie (00:22:09):
Oh you mean real world...
Austin Senseman (00:22:10):
Think about your air conditioner and it takes a while go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:22:13):
Oh physical constraint.
Austin Senseman (00:22:15):
Yeah. Yeah. The real world.
Rob Collie (00:22:16):
Oh how quaint.
Austin Senseman (00:22:17):
I know.
Rob Collie (00:22:19):
I thought you were a software company. You mean you can't heat the air instantaneously?
Austin Senseman (00:22:27):
It is nice to be a software company that is forced to be touching the real world so continuously.
Rob Collie (00:22:33):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (00:22:34):
It does inform a sort of discipline.
Rob Collie (00:22:37):
Yeah. I mean even the day that I got to witness the first edition of my book being printed...
Austin Senseman (00:22:44):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:22:44):
And I got to walk along the assembly line and follow, and this is on YouTube, the video of... I'm like this little kid, running along the assembly line with my phone. Something changed to see, like you've been talking about these formulas and all this virtual stuff. Right? And then like, oh, it's being printed on a real thing. I dig it.
Austin Senseman (00:23:06):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:23:07):
Turns out until you intersect the physical plane, you actually really aren't doing anything are you? Even analytics, eventually product needs to move from warehouse A to warehouse B or something. Right?
Austin Senseman (00:23:19):
Yeah. F.
Rob Collie (00:23:20):
Or it to have made any difference at all. People need to eat, people need HVAC. There's going to be molecules.
Austin Senseman (00:23:28):
But yeah, at P3, we're sort of going in these situations with practical intent. The goal was never, oh man, let's give them a dashboard. I mean, that was part of it. Right? But it was sort of understanding... We spent a lot of time with why, and then is this thing sort of opening a decision loop for you and closing it effectively. And I think all those reps I had doing training and doing jump starts with people, it's made this work I'm doing now... It's made me a lot more effective in this work. It's the same problem, but instead of going to different clients and doing the work, I'm just sort of in the same kind of challenge every day. But it's very much about actionable, valuable information.
Rob Collie (00:24:10):
One of the things that we do talk about a lot at P3 is you need dashboards, you need reports, you need things that, that allow you to explore whatever your question is at that particular moment. But you also need alerts that notify you of things that you wouldn't have thought to ask. You wouldn't have thought to drill down. So there's interactive drill down and then there's bubble up. And you need both. As an outsider to your business, and to be clear, we're talking about valuable cultural artifacts that need to be held in a particular range of temperature, humidity, light. I'd never heard about vibration before from you. I think that's fascinating. You get like accelerometers in the hardware too. It would strike me that the balance of ad hoc...
Rob Collie (00:25:03):
It would strike me that the balance of ad hoc drill down necessary in your business would be quite a bit less. The pendulum would swing quite a bit more towards the alert side in your analytics, even relative to a normal traditional business. Is that correct? Is it heavy on alerts?
Austin Senseman (00:25:20):
It is. And when we first got into this, one of the first things we noticed is the market leader in our space is not a wireless product. Most people have things that they call them data loggers and they're just recording things, but they're not transmitting any data. So when we show up and say, "Oh yeah, last summer the HVAC went out in that storage room, you didn't know for three days, yeah we can absolutely help you with that." I would say that's probably been at least half of the business that we've generated the last year is around use cases like, help me identify a small problem before it becomes a big one. So, that's a lot of it. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:01):
So data loggers, that means it's writing to a flash drive or something?
Austin Senseman (00:26:06):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:07):
And then you go around and you collect the flash drives.
Austin Senseman (00:26:09):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:09):
And then, maybe you're standing in a storage room that is now knee deep in water, taking the flash drive out. That's going to tell you that the humidity is spiked in here.
Austin Senseman (00:26:21):
Yeah. It turns out humans are pretty good sensors. You just pay someone to walk around.
Rob Collie (00:26:24):
Yeah. I would say that a good half of the problems would probably be noticeable by the person picking up the hard drive.
Austin Senseman (00:26:34):
Yeah exactly. It's funny. People who work in collections who do this kind of work they do because they look at these readings a lot and they're in these spaces a lot, they do sort of become pretty accurate humidity monitors. Someone could walk into a room and say, "Oh, I think it's 68% in here." And you look, "Oh yeah, it's pretty close. It's kind of wild."
Rob Collie (00:26:57):
We're talking about that, the different kinds of artifacts, different ranges. Or is everything the same? I've got a hunk of wood from the middle ages versus a painting versus a statue. Or is there a sort of a sweet spot that basically everything stays preserved in?
Austin Senseman (00:27:20):
Yeah. This is the question in this space. You put your finger on it, right? So historically, there wasn't a lot of evidence for this. And so, you see a lot of stuff from the fifties on. Your humidity should be between 50 and 70 and your temperature should be between 60 and 72 degrees.
Rob Collie (00:27:42):
It's a pretty wide range.
Austin Senseman (00:27:44):
It's pretty simple. Yeah. But then there's some other little nuances in there, like humidity between 50 and 70, but it really shouldn't move more than 10% in a day or some little things. And there was this sense of a standard, that is slowly being dismantled. The nice thing about it is, very simple to understand. Someone can look at it and say, "Okay." But it doesn't, it's not very reflective of reality, but then how do you say, these metal objects versus this lacquered wood furniture, there hasn't been enough investment in that kind of research. And, because the way that research is happening is people will go and do experiments kind of, "Let's take a piece of furniture and run it." And that's very, there's so many different types of materials that's a really expensive way to solve this problem because you have to test everything one at a time and ...
Rob Collie (00:28:40):
I'm also imagining this lottery where you're going along just picking the historical artifacts that are going to be subjected to this AB testing. We're just going to see if the Mona Lisa deteriorates faster or slower.
Austin Senseman (00:28:53):
Well, there's some interesting historical pass because of that. So, Eastman, Kodak, and Rochester, there's a university there, the Rochester Institute of Technology, and there's a group there called the Image Permanence Institute and they're focused on the conservation of photographs in film and they do lots of other things outside of that. They do a lot of consulting on conservation. And so, they built one of the early damage models using a pretty specific type of nitrate film. And then, you see that model being used across the whole industry to look at really any type of object, because it's one of the only kind of damage rate models that's out there and used widely, but it's actually not necessarily a good approximation for all these different things, but it just happened to come out of that area where they were focused on it. They had funding to look at it because of all the stuff they had in their collection. So, most collections in the US are benchmarked in themselves against the way a particular type of nitrate film to degrade over time. And ...
Rob Collie (00:30:05):
Oh, that sounds so typical, doesn't it? You ever heard the thing about, I mean, I have no idea if this is actually true or not, but I read back in the days when the internet was just a place to forward emails around. It was no social media yet. It stuck with me forever, which is why are train tracks the width that they are? Why are they spaced so many inches apart? And this says, well it's because this other thing before it was spaced the same way and well, why is that one that way? So, it's because this thing before, this thing before, this thing before. It goes back 15 steps and gets back to Roman chariots. Their wheels were that width and they wore ruts in the dirt paths. And so, everything had to conform to those ruts 2000 years later. You were hoping to find out, "Oh no, it's because it's the optimal weight distribution, blah blah, blah."
Rob Collie (00:30:54):
Nope. The Romans. There's also a little bit of a chicken and egg here too. If you're not able to really do anything with a standard, with a differing standard, if you're not able to act on it, maybe the precise standards won't even coalesce. There's no reason to develop them until you have the ability to do things like monitoring, really accurate monitoring. It was all that the human beings could do was to keep the whole museum in one state. But I think, with advances and with companies like yours-
Austin Senseman (00:31:29):
And with data.
Rob Collie (00:31:30):
Yeah. I say companies like yours, but there's really only one of you, maybe that will help accelerate the development of more tailored, precise standards.
Austin Senseman (00:31:42):
Well, yeah. I mean, if you look at the reality of having to do experiments and all these different material types and the cost, you're right. How do you prioritize what to do first? The alternative to that is to collect these large data sets to environment and collect data sets around the condition of objects over time and then to come at it more empirically. We have this experiment already running. It's running in every collection around the world. They have a particular environment. They have all these different types of objects. It's already happening. We're just not really collecting the data.
Austin Senseman (00:32:16):
And so, we have a natural lab and so conserve can step in. And this is a long term project because this to draw conclusions out, this requires a lot of data, but we think we can come at it empirically without having to go spend enormous amounts of time and money, trying to look at it. And because we're measuring things in collections, we're sort of naturally reflecting people's, the priorities of their collections. Do you have a lot of furniture? Do you have a lot of paintings? These kinds of things. So for a number of reasons, this is a more sensible approach, but you're right. Before people were doing monitoring like this, that just wasn't going to happen.
Rob Collie (00:32:53):
Tom, you're a bit of a world traveler. You've probably been to quite a few more countries than I have. Ever been to Stockholm, Tom?
Thomas LaRock (00:33:01):
I have not.
Rob Collie (00:33:03):
Well, I gave the worst talk of my entire career for the SQL Saturday type organization in Stockholm in 2010. It was terrible. We can talk about maybe some other time, but I guess go to Stockholm and for anyone listening to this and going museum monitoring, blah, blah, blah, blah, you've got to see the Vasa museum in Stockholm. This has really changed the way that I look at your company, Austin, is having had this experience.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:35):
The Vasa museum, you said?
Rob Collie (00:33:36):
Yeah, the Vasa museum.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:38):
Is that where all they have the ABBA collection.
Rob Collie (00:33:41):
That's next door. Yeah. The outfits. Yeah. The Vasa is its own really, really interesting engineering story to begin with. But the Vasa museum, imagine one of those giant warship galleons from mastering commander, there's a whole ship like that from that era in this museum. It is insane. And, the light is very low. It is very, very dim in there. If you went from being inside there straight out into the sunlight, you would not be able to see. Your eyes have to really adjust to be in there. It ends up just causing everybody to be quiet in there as well. It's like, you're just kind of walking around and you also know that this thing was the grave for a hundred plus people. This thing sank the pride of the Swedish Navy. It was going to go and really mess up their arrivals. It was like the super battleship of its era.
Rob Collie (00:34:46):
It was going to kick ass. And it sank within sight of the Harbor because of poor engineering. It just capsized and sank. Some people survived, but it took a bunch of them to the bottom with it. I forget, it was in the seventies or the eighties. They went and they raised this from the mud. So, when you're seeing this gigantic, you're not looking at a painting, you're looking at this gigantic structure, this warship. And they're telling you, "Look, this thing is trying to fall apart." It is an ongoing day to day war to keep this thing intact. They certainly don't let you walk on it. You get to walk around it as much as you want, but it really brought it home in a visceral way, for me. It's one artifact, but I'm sure they have data loggers all over it. Someday, they will have conserved sensors. They need it. Because who knows? Different parts of that ship are probably decaying at different rates. There's metal parts, there's wooden parts. Who knows? Even the finish on it, I have no idea. It's not one big problem, is it?
Austin Senseman (00:35:59):
That's right. Yeah. People that do this work, who are involved in this [inaudible 00:36:03] are fascinating. I mean, they show up with all sorts of backgrounds. I mean, you have to understand chemistry. Well, you have to understand the ethics of what you keep and how you keep it. Some of them are scientist. A lot of people who do this work are also doing restoration work. You have to have good hand skills to maybe retouch a painting or repair something on the ship. So, these are just really interesting people who like a very eclectic range of knowledge about a lot of different things. And Nathan, my business partner, his parents, our museum conservators. So, he's sort of grown up around this. To me, it was just a really pleasant surprise. We looked it and said, "This is a really interesting business." But now that we're in it, it's like, "Yeah." Interesting business. But also, we really, really just like the people we work with, which is a pleasant surprise.
Thomas LaRock (00:36:55):
So Rob, quick question for you though. Have you been to Amsterdam?
Rob Collie (00:36:59):
I spent an afternoon in Amsterdam as a layover. [Jocelyn 00:37:04] and I went, ran around town. We looked for Vincent Vega. We didn't find him. And then, we went back to the airport and got on another plane. But, did I miss something in Amsterdam?
Thomas LaRock (00:37:15):
One of my trips there was an extended one. So, I had time one day and my wife was with me and we went to the Rijksmuseum. Now the Rijksmuseum is really home to a lot of Rembrandt's work. And I learned all sorts of fascinating stuff about Rembrandt, but we were just talking about the appreciation you have when you are physically there. It's the physical world you had mentioned earlier. And we're there, and we're not just seeing the paintings. And, it's also what Rembrandt did. He invented lighting in a certain way, but I'm looking at this painting one day. We're there and it's taking up this entire wall. It's just huge. It's massive. And of course, you were mentioning in the Vasa, that ship, things decay at different rates. And you're looking at this thing, there's just something a little bit different about it.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:09):
And then the guide is talking about and they go so. This painting was actually in somebody's house. Somebody had purchased this Rembrandt, this thing that takes up this entire wall, and they had put it in their house, but they didn't quite fit. So, it was too big for where they put it in their house. So, what they did is, they simply chopped off parts on each side of it and just threw that shit away because I didn't need it in order to make it fit. And then when they get it back, they're like, so it's been lost. This painting was bigger at one point and this human, somebody on this earth, just discard the shitty part of this Rembrandt. And, I'm just fascinated that ... So, we talk about the people that you work with, Austin, that are into the conservation. They want to protect all this. And I'm sitting here thinking about this jerk hundreds of years ago that conservation of it, "I own it. I'll do what I want. I don't care. Just chop it up. I'm going to make it fit that wall."
Rob Collie (00:39:17):
Yeah. It's not going to leave my possession until I die. And when I'm gone, who cares?
Thomas LaRock (00:39:23):
Protect it.
Austin Senseman (00:39:24):
So, I don't want this to be a generalization, but it is a little piece of context that you might find interesting. It's exactly this kind of mindset. So some private collectors have this mindset about things. Most don't. It's overwhelmingly, people are very conscientious about this, but there are a lot of people who say, "Yep, I bought this thing and I'm going to enjoy it. If it falls apart, my kids don't get to enjoy it. Well, it's not really for them. It's for me." So, you do see this a little bit. But overwhelmingly, people are more conscientious in a way that they weren't necessarily five or 600 years ago, but you do still see some of that.
Rob Collie (00:40:04):
I want to buy one of those really famous pointillism pieces and have myself pointillism air brushed into it, just have myself added. I'm there that day at the park at French park or whatever. I'm just sitting there just kind of, "Hi, how you doing?" because I bought it. I guess, do what I want.
Austin Senseman (00:40:27):
Well, now that I'm in this business, I do strongly encourage people to become wealthy and develop art collections.
Rob Collie (00:40:35):
Yes, yes. We will base our economy on this.
Austin Senseman (00:40:38):
Yeah. So, I would offer that same, same suggestion to everyone on the call.
Rob Collie (00:40:44):
And I mentioned the Vasa because it has such a visceral impact on me. And sometimes you just need your gateway drug, so caring about something. In my first marriage, I got dragged through on the honeymoon, every single museum in Rome. And, it was just a big whiff for me. I just did not care. Just didn't do a thing for me, not a bit of it, but then something like the Vasa, I'm just standing there in awe. Everyone's different in terms of what gets their attention. And I'm really into subtlety. Subtlety is something that I really appreciate. And yet, oh yeah. I needed to be hit over the head with a gigantic warship that had been rescued hole from the bottom of the ocean, with a killer story behind it, an engineering failure. That's what it took for me to tune into this.
Austin Senseman (00:41:41):
It's like quantity having a quality all of its own. Just needs to be very large.
Rob Collie (00:41:45):
Yeah. Very [inaudible 00:41:48] type of thing, completely off topic but similar. Years ago, our family, we went to this Smithsonian Museum of Flight in DC. I've been hearing about predator drones forever. This was 2011, 2012. We went and you've been hearing about this and it's just sort of some cool thing that we have as a country that we can use to keep freedom sqafe. But they had one hanging from the ceiling and I stood there and I looked up at that thing and it is huge. It is so much bigger than you think. And something about seeing it overhead at that size, I turned and looked at my family and said, "This is not a good thing. We did not need this as humans. This is not good."
Rob Collie (00:42:40):
My whole perspective changed instantly. It wasn't like I was pro drone, like that. But, I'd sort of, in a way I was kind of numb to it, but then you see it. You're like, "Oh my God, not good." Another one of those life changing experiences. So even me, I'm generally not a museum fan. Every now and then something really grabs me. So, we really need to preserve that predator drone in DC.
Austin Senseman (00:43:13):
So people can can have that same shit your pants experience that [crosstalk 00:43:18]. That's good. That's important.
Rob Collie (00:43:18):
It is a part of our heritage.
Austin Senseman (00:43:20):
Unfortunately, it is. [crosstalk 00:43:21]
Rob Collie (00:43:22):
This is how we reign death from on high.
Austin Senseman (00:43:25):
This will be sort of over the next few centuries. This will be part of our colonial guilt and we need to keep it front and center.
Rob Collie (00:43:33):
We're not even particularly good at colonialism, really. We're not extracting the resources from our colonies in the way that the old powers used to. It's like, we're doing all, paying all the costs and none of the benefit. I just ...
Thomas LaRock (00:43:46):
No, I thought it was reverse. We didn't extract, we push things there, for example, nuclear testing in the [inaudible 00:43:53] and all those islands we own.
Rob Collie (00:43:56):
Well, I mean, you didn't want that done in Boston, did you?
Thomas LaRock (00:43:58):
That's right. That's what I'm saying.
Rob Collie (00:44:00):
Apparently, there's a theory that [John Wayne 00:44:02] got his cancer from the nuclear tests out west. It was upstream up wind from where they were filming.
Thomas LaRock (00:44:10):
Yeah. And not his six pack a day smoking habit?
Rob Collie (00:44:14):
Well, I'm sure that didn't help either. But I mean, imagine the irony of the John Wayne archetype, cultural icon, succumbing to a nuclear test. We were at least equal opportunity. The fascinating thing about some of those nuclear tests is how poor estimated some of the yields were. Both the US and the Soviets had bombs that went off way bigger than they expected. And when they were first testing the thermonuclear fusion weapons, they didn't really think about the fact that ... I don't know too much about it, but there's this less enriched uranium tamper that's used to sort of contain the explosion for just a millisecond so that it can actually go off big. They didn't really think about the fact that that thing was also going to go critical, the whole tamper. And it's like, "Whoa."
Thomas LaRock (00:45:03):
So, just the thought of the nuclear though actually makes me think of that as the another [IOT 00:45:12] and an analytics problem. The idea of-
Rob Collie (00:45:16):
Yeah. Building hardware is tough.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:17):
Knowing that country is doing an underground test just through a center on the other side of the world.
Rob Collie (00:45:22):
You can't use the data loggers for the nuclear test because the hard drive is incinerated before you can go collect it. You definitely need a wireless signal for that, but it needs to have a really, really high frequency.
Austin Senseman (00:45:40):
We haven't been asked for that particular use case yet.
Rob Collie (00:45:43):
Oh, you will be. You will be.
Austin Senseman (00:45:46):
Yeah. We do talk about disaster planning and recovery with people, but it's rarely in the context of if the museum gets nuked. We're not going to really be helpful in that situation.
Rob Collie (00:45:58):
I read a really Fisher Price business book a long time ago, which is really kind of the only non-fiction book that I'm capable of holding my attention on to finish it. These chapters were one page chapters. It was awesome. It's basically a book for startups. And one of the chapters, one of the one page chapters said, you can never make just one thing. So, on your way to building the thing that you meant to build, you actually end up building a bunch of other things that ended up being useful. And so, there's all kinds of famous pivot stories. Instagram wasn't Instagram, it was something else. And, they had one feature, this one photo sharing feature that had some filters on it that everyone was using to death. And they're like, "Well, let's just throw away the rest of the product and become just that."
Rob Collie (00:46:43):
I think Airbnb might have started a similar way. I'm not saying that you're going to get out of the conservation business, but what are some of the other things that you might have accidentally made along the way, like agriculture? Or there other places where your tech could be used, do you think?
Austin Senseman (00:47:00):
Thank you for asking my least favorite question.
Rob Collie (00:47:02):
Really? This is the least favorite?
Austin Senseman (00:47:05):
It's funny, it is because you feel a lot. And I appreciate you asking a question and what you normally feel. I tell someone about my business then about, then they think about it for about five seconds, and then they say, "Oh, you should do all these other things." And so, I appreciate you sort of opening up the dialogue. But, yeah. I mean, we absolutely will find ourselves doing other things once we've earned the right to do those things. The expertise we're generating is around applying IOT to a domain specific type of decision making. And to do that, you can't start off wide. You have to start narrow. And so, I'm like beating people off with a stick. "You should be doing these other things." No, leave us alone. We're going to do this.
Austin Senseman (00:47:57):
But yeah, it's sort of limitless, what the opportunities in the startup world though. It's important to be able to distinguish an opportunity from a distraction. And so, we would approach that. It's just another customer discovery problem. I mean, when we were first starting our business, I think we had one of these calls. Initially I just called everyone I knew and I said, "What's an interesting problem." "What do you mean? What's an interesting problem?" Well, I don't know. What's something that's an interesting problem people should be working on? And we did a lot of that just to listen.
Rob Collie (00:48:29):
I told you one of mine but let's not disclose it here because sooner or later we need to go do that. We still need to go do that idea. But I'll tell you, I was borderline mortally wounded when you didn't choose my idea. This one's good though. I like this one.
Austin Senseman (00:48:44):
It was a good one. And, we heard lots of good ones. So, it really comes down to really our own interest and our ability to be effective. I love markets that people overlook. So all the obvious things we probably aren't interested in. There's a lot going on in agriculture right now. Probably [crosstalk 00:49:05].
Rob Collie (00:49:05):
They're not going to become a cannabis monitoring startup. There's a little too much interest there these days.
Austin Senseman (00:49:09):
There is. Those are really interesting, by the way, the way that they tune the models in a grow operation. They just put a camera on it and they just optimize it toward a particular color of green and they give it control over everything, the temperature or the water, the nutrients. And it's just trying to drive toward the color of a healthy plant. And that's all they do. That's all they do to optimize the model. It's really interesting.
Rob Collie (00:49:44):
You seem to know a lot about this industry.
Austin Senseman (00:49:47):
I do. I have friends. I have friends who do that kind of work. I mean, we don't know. We don't know what we're going to do next, but certainly we will have built the muscles right, to go into another fairly narrow problem and be incredibly helpful.
Austin Senseman (00:50:02):
Problem. And be incredibly helpful. And man, I just, I love the narrow problems. Because a lot of people are looking at, that's part of the reason I hate this question, they're looking at the size of your market.
Rob Collie (00:50:10):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (00:50:11):
And so they're trying to figure out, "Oh, how can the market get as big as possible?" And as the market grows, your ability to focus and serve a particular type of person really becomes diluted. So having a narrow market means we know who our customer is, we can really get deep into their problem. And it's just a lot more fun. We're not in the middle of a $10 billion company right now, right? But that doesn't mean that we can't take the ceiling off as we grow and look at other things.
Rob Collie (00:50:41):
I love that, again, it's a business principle from a business book that I never read the whole thing, but I read the synopsis. That the tyranny of, ore... When someone's pressuring you, here's what you should be doing instead. Even if you eventually do get into one of those things, that's mean you have to stop doing the original thing either. When you're a kid, I don't know, maybe not all kids think about this. But when I was a kid, I would think about, "Oh, I understand companies. They get really good at something, they perform a service that the rest of society needs and exchange for that they're able to provide employment to their people."
Rob Collie (00:51:15):
And you take this holistic view from a society standpoint and that's what companies are, right? And you grow up and you get exposed to the reality and you get exposed to this thing where, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no money is chasing return. And if you need money for your idea, then your idea better be able to turn into a billion dollar win or it's just not worthy, is it? And there's something really, really sick about that. My dental that the office... And I haven't been to the dentist since COVID because, right? But my dental practice just got bought by private equity. Private equity sees, "Ooh, dental." You got to go twice a year.
Rob Collie (00:52:00):
It's a subscription model and you can't avoid it. It's a captive audience. Guess we've done the research and found people don't really like to change the dental practice. Even if the dentist changed, they still like to go to the same building over and over again, it's routine. So this is a place where we can extract cash from the population. And it's like, come on, this is a long ways away from my naive views of what a company should be. Anyway, at P3 we have the benefit and the obstacle that we've never taken any money from any investors. And so we can be more of that other thing, if we want to be.
Rob Collie (00:52:40):
The thing that exchanges a service, a valuable, really a valuable service for the world and provides great employment for a really cool kind of person. We still need to view it as a business, but we don't have to be viewing it as this max extract thing. I think as soon as you go max extract, it's when you start to lose your taste for it. Unless extraction is your thing.
Austin Senseman (00:53:05):
Yeah. And this is so important for our market, right? Because in our market, we work with nonprofits mostly, right? There's just this background hum, mistrust of private enterprise. And so I've had to wrestle this personally. Because, I'm showing up like, "Yeah, we want to build a valuable business, but we're going to do that by creating value for people. And if we can't do that, then we don't deserve to have a business." So that's, how we think about it. So then you bump into this and it can be a little jarring, you know? And so we've had to really think through then reframe some things about how we talk about our business. And we're doing it in an authentic way. But if I'm raising investment, let's say I raise a million dollars to go work on conservation tools.
Austin Senseman (00:53:53):
This other group just got NEH grant of a million dollars to go work on conservation tools and that is celebrated. But over here, it's a little different. And so we are trying to frame up and I think it's true, right? That we are bringing investment dollars into an area to build better tools. And we have a higher bar. Because we have to get people to pay for things. And so we really have to build things that are of a certain quality or else we don't get to play anymore. And the mechanics of private business really force you into focusing on your customers and really being dialed in, especially early.
Austin Senseman (00:54:33):
And that kind of energy is really good for the space we're in. But that's not necessarily the initial instinct people have. So we really want to be a partner in this space and we just say things move at the speed of trust, is where we are.
Rob Collie (00:54:51):
Ooh. And that's-
Austin Senseman (00:54:51):
It is good-
Rob Collie (00:54:52):
That's slow.
Austin Senseman (00:54:53):
It is slow but-
Rob Collie (00:54:54):
Isn't it?
Austin Senseman (00:54:55):
We've put an advisory board around the company, right? So these are folks who've worked at MoMA or from conservation programs. They've worked at the Smithsonian, they've worked at other places. Who really believe in what we're doing, who are standing next to us and helping us bridge some of these gaps early. But that's a little bit of our unfair advantage, I think over the next couple years. Is having those people walk alongside us and help us get over some of those barriers.
Rob Collie (00:55:24):
We were talking about the investing attitude around this, but there was something else that struck me there, was that the conservation world distrusts private business. And well, yeah. Because private business, especially lately is funded primarily within an extraction.
Austin Senseman (00:55:42):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:42):
Mindset.
Austin Senseman (00:55:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:55:45):
And so there's a parallel here with our business at P3. Which is, how do you tell a prospective customer, partner or client, "We're not predatory"?
Austin Senseman (00:55:56):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:55:57):
In a way that they will believe you. Because for good reason, they have been conditioned in the BI space. I mean, seriously, I sat around and listened to other executives at other BI firms laughing about how they talk about getting clients pregnant. And there's nothing that they can do. Once we're in there, once we've gotten at first purchase order, we've got them. I was like, "Oh this is gross. Yuck!" So our perspective clients that were evaluating us, I mean they have been burned by that kind of mindset before. Or if they haven't themselves, they certainly have a friend that has.
Rob Collie (00:56:38):
How do you say we're not predators and be believed? This is a tricky question, isn't it?
Austin Senseman (00:56:44):
Yeah, it is. And it comes down to authenticity on some level. Right. And sort of staying in the game long enough, right? If you can show up and be authentic and you're around long enough where people really can experience that, then you can win. But it can be slow.
Rob Collie (00:57:01):
By the way, if you ever need me to join your board of advisors, I'm available. And if your other advisors ask what my qualifications are, "What does this guy know?" You say, "Well, ladies, gentlemen, he's been to the Vasa."
Austin Senseman (00:57:14):
Yeah. He has stared into the abyss.
Rob Collie (00:57:17):
That's right. He's been to the Vasa, okay? Have you been to the Vasa?
Austin Senseman (00:57:25):
13 years in MoMA, 10 years of the Smithsonian. Visited a museum.
Rob Collie (00:57:29):
But I've never made it to Stockholm, which you couldn't have been bothered to go see the Vasa. Could you?
Thomas LaRock (00:57:37):
Anybody can visit MoMA, geez.
Rob Collie (00:57:39):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (00:57:39):
That's right, that's right.
Rob Collie (00:57:43):
Go visit the Vasa, then come back and let's talk.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:48):
Now would that work for me? Could I then also say my qualifications are, I know someone who went to the Vasa?
Rob Collie (00:57:56):
It's like how for a while, they're like anyone that had anything to do with Sean McVay, the coach of the Rams, right? Was getting a coaching offer.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:03):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (00:58:04):
You're right.
Rob Collie (00:58:04):
I at one time had lunch with Sean McVay's brother. So I'll be offensive coordinator now for you. Except in that story, Sean McVay is actually qualified. In this story, I've been to the Vasa.
Austin Senseman (00:58:27):
You may see if they want to sponsor this episode, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:58:33):
That's $50 of mention, Vasa.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:39):
They're probably a nonprofit. So they're going to tell you they don't have any money for it.
Rob Collie (00:58:43):
That's right, that's right. That's why I set the dollar figure at 50. Some commercial enterprise, we're not going to sell mentions for 50 bucks.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:51):
I don't think they're on the Euro. You're going to get paid in like krone or whatever.
Rob Collie (00:58:54):
Yeah, Krone. And Swedish Krone at that. Not Danish Krone, Swedish krone.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:00):
That's right.
Rob Collie (00:59:00):
Yeah. It's Krone everywhere. Tom, you've been stacking them up, let's...
Austin Senseman (00:59:06):
I've seen that. You were taking notes?
Thomas LaRock (00:59:07):
I've got a few things here.
Austin Senseman (00:59:09):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:09):
I would love to hear about this interview of death.
Austin Senseman (00:59:13):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:13):
The interview of death. Yes. I would love to talk about the interview of death. And Austin was actually one of the first victims, period. But also one of the first successful victims. If, you can have such a thing. This year, we've hired a PR firm to help us get our message out. And one of the stories that we've ended up telling to multiple different media outlets is related to this. It's, how do you hire remotely? How do you effectively hire remotely? And the world's adjusting to this because of COVID. But we were a remote company before it was cool. We've been a remote company from the beginning.
Rob Collie (00:59:50):
So one of the many things that Microsoft did for me was, allowed me the opportunity to interview many, many, many, many candidates over the year. Definitely triple digits of interviews. And they also gave you plenty of leeway, no instruction really, there's just certain check boxes you had to check. And so you could go about it however you wanted. I had the opportunity to do it the wrong way for many, many, many years before eventually figuring out a right way that actually worked. Two things that I learned from that process that I will tell anyone, anyone that's starting a business, anyone that's running a business.
Rob Collie (01:00:23):
That these are crucial to interviewing, to finding the right people. One of them is, dispense with all of the fluffy stuff. That's like, asking people which Rolling Stone their most like or where do they draw inspiration from, what color defines their person? I mean, I know there's some psychological assessment batteries, these 100 question tests that actually can tell you something relatively useful. But it's qualitative, they don't tell you the yes, no, whether this person can do the job. So then one thing is your interview needs to simulate as closely as possible, the actual job.
Rob Collie (01:00:57):
Don't look for secondary indicators of whether they can do the job, go straight at whether they can do the job. And this requires you to do some work. You have to design a test that simulates the job. I'm not sure this works for every job, but for all the jobs I've ever hired for, it turns out it's feasible. And right now we're hiring a copywriter, a web dev and a graphic designer. And we're applying the same philosophy, even though I'm none of those things, I'm kind of a copywriter. So simulate the job. That's number one, number two, set a really, really, really high bar, make it hard. Make it really hard.
Rob Collie (01:01:40):
I guess there's a third thing, which is in the course of the test, don't make it just pass, fail. You want to have many, many, many possible grades on it. You want to have a wide range of performance on the test. So there needs to be a lot of layers to the test. If it's just pass, fail, odds are it's either too hard or too easy. You're going to get a lot of either false negatives or false positives. And you have to be willing to let good people that actually, would've been very, very good at the job, you have to accept the fact that some of them aren't going to pass it just by chance. That is hard. That's hard to do as a human being.
Rob Collie (01:02:16):
It's especially hard for me. When people get this test from us, it comes with all kinds of disclaimers. Like, please, please, please, please, please, if you don't pass it, please don't take it as a sign that you're not good at Power BI because you're probably awesome. You're probably awesome at Power BI. I do not want anyone to get discouraged as a result of this.
Austin Senseman (01:02:38):
I've got to chuckle at that a little bit. I mean-
Rob Collie (01:02:40):
Really? You think I want to discourage people?
Austin Senseman (01:02:43):
What's the name of this thing?
Rob Collie (01:02:44):
Well, we only call it that internally.
Austin Senseman (01:02:46):
Oh, I see. I'm not saying you want people to get discouraged by it.
Rob Collie (01:02:53):
It's not a predator drone of an interview test. We're not sending it out there to hurt people.
Austin Senseman (01:02:58):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:02:58):
Kind of sounds that way.
Rob Collie (01:03:00):
Seriously. That's something that... I'm not happy about that part of it. Right?
Austin Senseman (01:03:04):
Well, let's call the PR company.
Rob Collie (01:03:07):
All right, folks. So let's get back on task now, shall we? It's been one of the three best things that I've done for my own company, is this test. I set the bar very high, I simulated the job, I did all the things that Microsoft taught me to do. It's okay to administer this test remotely, open book, on your own time. Cheat, I don't care. Actually, we design it in a way that you can cheat kind of, but not really. Because it's real, right? In real life, if you were going to be solving a Power BI problem, you are not going to be cut off from Google.
Rob Collie (01:03:41):
But if you rely on it, you're not going to do well. It's that way. Do you even remember, Austin? Have you blocked it out?
Austin Senseman (01:03:48):
I remember it really well. I mean, remember I didn't just take it, but I was using it to hire people as well. So I was-
Rob Collie (01:03:53):
That's right.
Austin Senseman (01:03:54):
I probably put 20 people through it myself.
Rob Collie (01:03:58):
So you're like the first guy that stands on the doorstep in the movie, Fight Club and endures two days of screaming in your face and everything, right? And abuse and everything. And then as soon as we let you in the house, now you're out there screaming at the next guy.
Austin Senseman (01:04:15):
Yeah. I never joined a fraternity, I guess maybe I did, retrospect.
Rob Collie (01:04:21):
Kind of did.
Austin Senseman (01:04:22):
I remember it very well. And I agree with you. It is probably one of the best things that you did early. Because, what is a consulting company? It's like the talent of the people that you put out in the field and it's a tough job. You have to be able to show up really on day one without a ton of instruction and just be excellent. And that's really what you want, right? You just want to just show up and be excellent immediately. And this exam or this process, it produced that. And man, that sure does make it easier to focus on all the other things about a business if you just solve that problem.
Rob Collie (01:05:04):
Yeah. And this folks is actually a huge advantage of hiring remotely. Is that because you're not filtering to a particular geography, you can get a much, much, much greater number of candidates at the opening of the funnel. So if you want to hold the bar super, super high and we have a 2% pass rate, think about that. We've had to screen 50 candidates to find one yes. Well, you're not going to be able to call your shot, you can't even say, "We need to hire someone in Chicago." You can't even name a major metropolitan area because it might just turn out that there actually...
Rob Collie (01:05:40):
When you can really get down to it, there just isn't someone in Chicago right now, perhaps.
Austin Senseman (01:05:44):
Especially five years ago.
Rob Collie (01:05:46):
Especially five years ago.
Austin Senseman (01:05:47):
Especially five.
Rob Collie (01:05:50):
You can think of hiring remotely and remote work as an obstacle and in some ways it absolutely is. But you can't just fight those obstacles, you've also got to lean into the advantages that it provides you. And our ability to be geographically distributed from the beginning, if we hadn't been, we would've not been able to have the same quality bar.
Austin Senseman (01:06:09):
Yeah. And this is not meant to compare myself or anyone who works at P3 to Michael Jordan. But if you watch the last dance, you really got this sense that he always wanted to compete against the best people because that's the only way he knew if he was good. And so I think for people who were really good and are really good at these tools, when you confront this process, you really respond to it positively. Because, you come out of it knowing that you really earned this and that you really are probably one of the best people doing this kind of work in the world.
Austin Senseman (01:06:45):
And so there's the poll aspect to it as well. And top performers want to experience that.
Rob Collie (01:06:52):
Yeah. I don't want to compare us to Michael Jordan either. Maybe on the court, but he's got a hole in his soul that nothing can ever fill. I think we a little healthier than that.
Austin Senseman (01:07:07):
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I really enjoyed-
Rob Collie (01:07:10):
Oh, it's a great documentary.
Austin Senseman (01:07:11):
That story. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:07:12):
It's great documentary. But he's both the protagonist and the villain, simultaneously.
Austin Senseman (01:07:16):
Oh yeah. And as much as he's the villain in that story, remember he also produced it.
Rob Collie (01:07:21):
I know.
Austin Senseman (01:07:21):
It's like-
Rob Collie (01:07:22):
This is after he filtered out all-
Austin Senseman (01:07:25):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:07:25):
The stuff he didn't want me.
Austin Senseman (01:07:25):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:07:26):
To see
Austin Senseman (01:07:27):
That's right. But just that sentiment of, unless you're competing against the absolute best person, you don't really know how good you are. I took that away from that. And I really enjoyed that sentiment.
Rob Collie (01:07:40):
No, no, no. Don't be silly, I didn't keep Isaiah Thomas off of that team. I mean I hate the guy. I really, really don't like him.
Austin Senseman (01:07:47):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:07:48):
He didn't belong there, but I had nothing to do with it.
Austin Senseman (01:07:52):
The other thing I took away from that is his ability to get himself in a peak competitive state, creating these fictional things.
Rob Collie (01:08:08):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (01:08:08):
Just to get himself there.
Rob Collie (01:08:10):
The fictional bogie man. We have a joke at my house that has now become a joke at our company as well. And I got this from Adam Corolla years ago on his radio show. He was laughing about someone had just won the super bowl and they're in the locker room afterwards. And they're screaming, "Nobody believed in us. Nobody of gave us a chance." They're all angry in the camera, right? And he is like, when did winning become a bad thing? When did winning become a negative thing? You're supposed to get excited and cheer, now you're just screaming.
Rob Collie (01:08:40):
But that's one of the ways that has proven to work for sports teams, right? Is to invent and focus on a disrespect.
Thomas LaRock (01:08:50):
Always been that way.
Rob Collie (01:08:52):
At our house, we do all kinds of silly stuff. We go to the store, we buy a loaf of bread, we bring it back to the car and we throw it in the car and we're like, "Nobody gave us a chance to get that bread. Nobody believed in us."
Thomas LaRock (01:09:10):
With pandemic shopping, that actually makes more... Nobody believed we could get this toilet paper.
Rob Collie (01:09:15):
That's right.
Austin Senseman (01:09:15):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:09:15):
Last toilet paper on earth and is ours.
Austin Senseman (01:09:19):
All 50,000 rolls you bought?
Rob Collie (01:09:20):
That's right. We're wheeling the pallet out. Giving everyone the finger and saying, "Oh, I wouldn't go in there. They're sold out."
Austin Senseman (01:09:33):
Real underdog story.
Rob Collie (01:09:36):
Yeah. There is a little bit of that for sure at our business. Because of how many times I was told that our business, the whole way we wanted to approach things, wasn't going to work. And here we are years later it definitely works.
Austin Senseman (01:09:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:09:51):
And I do want to circle back with some of those naysayers and do that thing, "You didn't give us a chance, did you?" I mean, and all we really wanted to do was just work the right way.
Austin Senseman (01:10:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:10:05):
We didn't want to do something that was bad. We just wanted to do something good. And to people that it would never work.
Austin Senseman (01:10:13):
But I think that bubbles up too, in the people that you've hired over the years too. Is you are bringing people into the company who've lived in the shitty parts of the experience, right? They're not only great technically at what they do, but they show up understanding, they've been in an organization and they've tried to affect change and they've struggled with the constraints of how things work. And so they show up really sensitive to the same problems that your customers have and they want to do it in the right way. And something about this interview and hiring process, seemed to capture that as well. Even though, that really wasn't-
Rob Collie (01:10:54):
Yeah.
Austin Senseman (01:10:55):
Part of the test. You got the right cultural fit too.
Rob Collie (01:10:59):
It's weird.
Austin Senseman (01:11:00):
It's pretty wild.
Rob Collie (01:11:01):
It was completely unintentional. I literally designed the test to just find that the people who could do the job. And yet, the people who pass it are all just phenomenally good people. And I mean well above average, in terms of how much you enjoy interacting with them, there are levels of integrity. It's so strange that things correlate so strongly with success on the test that isn't looking for that stuff at all. I don't think I could do that again. I don't think I could luck into that. I mean, I did luck into that. I still don't understand why that is. I certainly appreciate and welcome it and love it.
Rob Collie (01:11:45):
Some of us, we do like to say that even though we don't have a central office, if we had one, it'd be a good place to hang out. We would like to go there, it'd be fun. Maybe someday.
Austin Senseman (01:11:54):
Productivity would go down 20%.
Rob Collie (01:11:57):
Probably. Mostly because of me walking around saying, "Hey, have you been to the Vasa?"
Austin Senseman (01:12:06):
Rob.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:10):
"Oh shit, here comes Rob again. We're going to talk about the Vasa."
Rob Collie (01:12:13):
Quick, hide!
Austin Senseman (01:12:14):
Show that Vasa fake tattoo you got just to get him out of here.
Rob Collie (01:12:20):
Yes, Rob, we know. We know they made it too top heavy. They didn't make the keel wide enough. Yes, you've told us.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:27):
Yeah, people died. Yeah, we know.
Rob Collie (01:12:29):
It was an engineering failure. Yes, we know.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:34):
I really did things move at the speed of trust. And I know Rob commented saying that's slow, but I don't think that's a bad thing. And you know what happens fast? You can lose trust really fast.
Austin Senseman (01:12:46):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:47):
It takes a long time to build that at trust, but it's so worth the journey to get there. And I don't think that's a bad thing that it's so slow. But you can lose it all in the minute.
Rob Collie (01:12:58):
I completely agree. Distrust is damn near instantaneous, it travels very quickly.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:03):
And you were just talking about your business and hiring all those good people. And I remember the times that we've talked about the phrase, "It's not personal, it's just business." And how much it's always personal.
Rob Collie (01:13:16):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:17):
It's always personal. If you give me that line, that means you prefer money over my relationship with you. And that might be good for you, but I thought we had something special.
Rob Collie (01:13:30):
Yeah. In the episode that we recorded with Paul, he said, "What is a company, other than the people?" I complete... It is, right? What is there other than personal? You take the people away, what you got? Interesting. A lot of nothing, right? So usually when someone says it's not personal, it's just business. They're just trying to justify and sidestep responsibility for something. It might be that you still needed to do the same thing. Strange, I got into an argument with an applicant for the copywriter over email the other day. It was hilarious.
Rob Collie (01:14:06):
I've actually been thinking about trying to like screenshot it and make it shareable. It's hilarious.
Austin Senseman (01:14:10):
Is this about simulating the job?
Rob Collie (01:14:13):
Well, no. He picked it up on this, on the job board. And I sent him a note saying, and it was a templatized note saying, 'Hey, would you mind heading over to this link and filling out the actual application?" Because, he just picked up on a job board right? And he replied back and said, "Yeah, actually I do mind." And that was it. So I sent him a note saying, "LOL, have a good day", whatever, right? But then someone else pointed out that it might be a scam, that they weren't going to click the link. And I was like, "Oh, okay." So I'll circle back to the person and showed them that we're real and it's not a scam, right?
Rob Collie (01:14:44):
So I circled back to guy and said, "Hey, listen. I've been pointing out some people might think it's a scam. But look me up, I'm real. This is real." Whatever, right? And he still insists that it might... He's like, "No, I'm not going to do that", right? I'm not going to click the link, whatever, right? Of course if you clicked links before to get to this job site, whatever. Again, I just...
Rob Collie (01:15:03):
Of course, he clicked links before to get to this job site, whatever. Again, I just kind of wrote him off. But then I realized he actually had applied the day before he had clicked. I looked and he's in my system. He had clicked the link and filled out the application and he was telling me that he wouldn't click links. I couldn't resist. Replied back and said, "Hey, check it out. It turns out you do click links." I pasted one of his answers back to him and it was an obnoxious answer. He was so arrogant and abrasive, and he used the wrong version of it's in a copywriter application. So I said, "Look, you do click links. And I disqualified you for being abrasive and arrogant and using the wrong version of it's." And then he came back and said, "I'm still not going to click the link."
Thomas LaRock (01:15:46):
That's awesome.
Rob Collie (01:15:46):
And he said, "It's nothing personal." I reply back, "It's always personal. Have a good day."
Austin Senseman (01:15:58):
It's that level of engagement in the hiring process. You're not going to get that. You're not going to get just left in the dark, right? You're going to hear it.
Rob Collie (01:16:09):
We want you to have a good experience with this. We want you to know that we care.
Austin Senseman (01:16:13):
What you need to hear is we want you to have an experience.
Rob Collie (01:16:18):
We've had a lot of great candidates and applicants to that position and we really do. But it's just like every now and then you run into someone out there just like, "Oh right. Humans, very diverse. Wide range." So one thing we didn't talk about, I want to make sure we do, is you are a Power BI guy at our company.
Austin Senseman (01:16:37):
Yeah, yeah. Definitely.
Rob Collie (01:16:37):
And so of course it would be natural for Power BI to be part of your... You mentioned the analytics is really what you do. What the values created, and I agree. Except that I love those sensors. I know the answer to this. You tried to use Power BI for this. There were some constraints that you ran into that people might not expect. Can we talk about that a little bit?
Austin Senseman (01:16:58):
Yeah, absolutely. So let's say this was last summer 2019. So at this point we didn't have paying customers, right? It was early in the product development. But the analytics experiences, the central experience of our application, right? We had sensors giving us data. We were building the application. We had users we were getting feedback from. And so at this point, it's just me and Nathan. Nathan's our only developer. And it just seemed faster in that moment to embed Power BI in our application, because then I could move quickly. Because a lot of it's testing stuff is like, "Is this the kind of chart you want to see? Oh you wanted to see a year over year. You mean like this?" it was a lot of these kind of problems. And so it was just easier for me to crank through those things.
Austin Senseman (01:17:42):
And so Nathan agreed, right? This would help us do product discovery faster. And so we got it all set up and it was quite a process. I don't know what's happened in the interim, but at that point, most of the documentation wasn't correct, right? So it was like read the Microsoft documentation, try it, go to stack overflow, find the actual answer.
Rob Collie (01:18:06):
And this is specifically for Power BI embedded, right?
Austin Senseman (01:18:08):
Power BI embedded. Yeah, yeah. I mean all the other pieces of it I'm extremely comfortable with, but how do we embed this into a cloud application? So what do you have to figure out? You have to figure out the security model, right? And how our users who are already authenticated in our application, how that gets passed through. And we were using a Postgres database in Amazon. And importantly we were presenting relatively real time data to people, right? So refreshing every hour, that wouldn't work. So we sort of ran into a number of constraints around having authenticated real time data in front of people. We got most of that sorted out. I ran into some modeling challenges around time, right? Because for a lot of the BI work we do, I've done historically. Time doesn't deeply enter into things. But for us it's just right at the forefront.
Austin Senseman (01:19:03):
So it's relatively hard to model time well and power behind the data model, especially when you're talking about a bunch of different time zones and getting it all lined up correctly. It was hard. And it was hard at a level of detail, right? It's like, "Do you handle this in the Dax? Or do you handle it like in power query as it's coming to through?" That'll make sense that people understand that. But we got sorted through all that stuff. I guess from last summer, through the end of last year, we were using power behind the application and it went reasonably well. At some point it was just too expensive is what I would say. And then at that point, the buy and build decision changes and it got a little expensive. And we also ran in some features that customers wanted that weren't going to make sense for us to build them in Power BI.
Austin Senseman (01:19:59):
And so we made a decision early this year, which feels like about 10 years ago at this point, too sort of build our own. But that was an easy transition. And I guess the short story is we used Power BI embedded as a product and customer discovery tool early. Cause we could iterate so fast. Someone could ask for a feature while I'm talking them on the phone and 10 minute later we're looking at it. Which is what we would do at P3 when we were building things for people. It's very natural. In our case, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing for an early stage startup to use.
Rob Collie (01:20:36):
Well, it kind of depends on how you're using it. Of course, right? Like you mentioned, I want to say one of, maybe the absolute strength of Power BI is that it's ready for anything essentially. In most business environments tomorrow's questions are not remotely anticipatable. You have no idea what you're going to need to know tomorrow. And that's just reality and the system is ready for that. But once your needs stabilize, if you've got a predictable set of needs, the flexible system isn't necessarily going to deliver that same last 1% of polish on that dedicated set of need that a completely custom set of software will do. Like when we talk with like Brad and Kai from Agree, one of their problems forever was that they had software developers lying around.
Rob Collie (01:21:28):
They just had software developers at their beck and call at all times. And so they never really understood in those days what the advantage of Power BI was because like, "What do you mean I can't answer these questions? I can just go ask one of 50 developers to go do it for me." But it does kind of flip, it flips back. Without pigeonholing your business, I can absolutely imagine that the needs of your customers become very, very, very specific and well known after a while. As opposed to random ad hoc. It's not like my questions are going to really change tomorrow so much. Right? I might add to my collection, but I have the same questions, the same things I need to know about that wing of the museum. I just opened as I did the other wing. But the cost that's really interesting, right? That Power BI embedded, it sounds like ultimately cost was the number one. Maybe you would eventually gone a hundred percent custom anyway, but like the monthly expense kind of forced your hand before anything else.
Austin Senseman (01:22:31):
Yeah. I mean the way the tiers are set up. I think people who've worked with Microsoft for any period of time sort of understand how the pricing models are put together. It starts with a fairly expensive product for relatively large enterprises and then they work their way back into how to serve smaller companies. And I think that's a good model. You have people paying quite a bit more upfront as you develop the product and then you democratize a little bit more. That lowest tier hasn't made it far enough down I think in my opinion. There's a bit of a immediate step up to whatever it was $10,000 a month, or whatever it was. And so that's not a price point. I mean, when I say startup, right? If you're like a VC back startup, but that doesn't feel like a lot. But if you're kind of bootstrapping it early, I'm going to go and get Power Pivot out at that point, right? And just make some stuff and show it to people. And we'll just try to sort out the software separately.
Austin Senseman (01:23:29):
I would recommend that they have a look at that. I mean, there are high step ups in a lot of cloud services. Like AWS certainly has them, but AWS showed up and said, "Hey Conserve, here's $50,000 of AWS credit." Great. Keep the price whatever you want. Great. And Microsoft had a program like that for a long time. They've really restricted that program now, you have to be part of a particular accelerator, this and that. If we could have accessed funds like that, it would've extended our runway with that product considerably. Which is good because then by the time we had revenue or further along and we could afford it at that point, maybe we would just transition and keep using it. But they've sort of taken that model away from startups, unfortunately. But that's a powerful way to get people to adopt.
Rob Collie (01:24:21):
There's a really interesting twilight zone that they've created in their pricing. I often will say that because they price for the enterprise, they accidentally under price for the small and mid-market. The pro license, like $10 a month per user. When you've got a relatively small organization in terms of decision makers, like five people that need access to this? $50 a month. Like Microsoft is losing money on that. They have to be. I actually think that it's a screaming deal for the mid market. It's just that with embedded, right? You've got to step up to the multi-thousand dollar minimum a month. That changes things.
Austin Senseman (01:25:04):
And to be clear, we use Power BI in the operations of our business every day. Like all of our system health metrics, our sensors online. We are looking at that constantly and it just really works well in the tempo of running our business.
Rob Collie (01:25:18):
I'm not surprised. How many pro licenses does it require?
Austin Senseman (01:25:24):
I think we have three.
Rob Collie (01:25:26):
Three, yeah. Three, that's $30. $30 a month.
Austin Senseman (01:25:31):
There's plenty of software that we pay for that delivers a 10th of the value that is five times as much.
Thomas LaRock (01:25:38):
So the way pricing sometimes shakes out, it always has me scratching my head and I think there's another angle to it. So the first thing I would ask is, "How much is tab, low cost?" So if they're trying to get market share for companies of Austin size and just a few users, they just want to make sure are not turning to Tableau for anything in your business. But with the embedded stuff, well is that even an option for Tableau? Like what does that end up costing? So that's one aspect. And what I compare it to is that time when SQL server changed its licensing and they went from basically server and they said, "We just charge you for the server. That's it." And then they went to core licensing. And at that moment, the price for SQL server kind of got jacked a little bit.
Thomas LaRock (01:26:23):
And it was all people waving their hands, "Oh my god, my god." Now they were like half as much as Oracle, instead of being like 10 or 20% of an Oracle. They were like half as much. So the analyst and everybody's like now the SQL server seems to be a real player in the database where I'm like, "All they did was raise their price." It's the idea. You can bake a pie and if you sell it for two bucks, it's a piece of shit. But if you sell it for 20 bucks, this is a gourmet pie. It's just weird to me how that sometimes has that effect on people in the back of their mind like, "Oh, look at the price of this thing. It's got to be worth it."
Rob Collie (01:26:58):
Yeah. We should just add a zero to all of our pricing at P3.
Austin Senseman (01:27:02):
You know this story, this happened with one of our customers. You may remember who this was. We don't have to say the name, but.
Rob Collie (01:27:07):
Oh, I do vaguely. Yes, I do.
Austin Senseman (01:27:10):
We quoted a deal for someone. It was a relatively big project, right? But we knew our tempo and what we could do. And so we came back and said, "We can do this for $30,000." And this guy just started laughing. He was like, "No, no. It's got to be at least $100,000 or they're not going to take it seriously." So I said, "I think it's going to cost us $100,000 to get this done." And he said, "Okay, good. That's what I'll tell him."
Rob Collie (01:27:40):
Nuts, right?
Austin Senseman (01:27:40):
It was an international project. And so he took a lot of that budget and he wasn't planning on doing this, but then he was like, "Well, I'll just travel to each one of these sites." Like Singapore, Melbourne, London. So he of visited all the teams, as part of the project. But that was actually good. It got a lot of buy-in from all the DBAs at all these places. And then when we were ready to work. But it was eye opening. People do think that way.
Rob Collie (01:28:07):
Well, 100,000. That's an interesting number that just came up. That's exactly what you just won in that grant competition, right? And you know what I recommend you do in the age of COVID I think you should charter a private jet to Stockholm. And go see the Vasa.
Austin Senseman (01:28:26):
What are you doing?
Rob Collie (01:28:27):
I don't even take you seriously. You say you're in the conservation visit, but you haven't seen the Vasa yet.
Austin Senseman (01:28:32):
What are you doing over the holidays?
Rob Collie (01:28:35):
I could probably squeeze in a trip to Stockholm on a private jet. You think we could fit that into 100k budget? You said that the money came with no strings.
Austin Senseman (01:28:43):
Yeah, that's right. That's right. The only string is you- And this is why it's an economic development program. But we do have to keep the company here in Alabama for five years I think.
Rob Collie (01:28:54):
Oh, wow. You're not you weren't going anywhere.
Austin Senseman (01:28:57):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:28:58):
I mean, other than Stockholm.
Austin Senseman (01:29:01):
Yeah. Yeah. Sure, sure. I have a hard time as a business owner celebrating appropriately, right? So I just always feel like there's more work to be done. Like we just had a great week. We won $100,000 and this pitch competition is a ton of work. And sometimes it's hard to take a victory lap because you're like, "Okay, great. I got this money time to go get to work." And sometimes it can be hard to like stop and say, "Wow, we've really done a lot." I did take a moment with my team because in filling out this competition application we were looking back at the last 18 months and it was really an incredible feeling. Because last August it was Nathan and I, we didn't have any paying customers. We didn't have a product that really worked. We certainly didn't have any revenue and this kind of stuff.
Austin Senseman (01:29:44):
And you know, fast forward 12 months-ish we have about 20 paying customers. We have some recurring revenue. We don't just have customers, we have a lot of people who are really fans of our business. Our products evolved a lot. And if you don't pick your head up sometimes and just look at all that you kind of just get lost in just how much hard work it is. We've just made an incredible amount of progress.
Austin Senseman (01:30:07):
I think that's why we won this pitch competition this week. It's the work we've put in. And we started off with a bunch of assumptions and now we've validated a lot of them. And then it's looking ahead at where we want to go. And these people feeling like we had a very realistic plan to do the things we want to do, but man. I don't pick my head up enough and sort of look at sort of the arc of things. But it's really powerful to every now and then. And certainly the team needs to hear that as well. That man we've just really done a lot of good work.
Rob Collie (01:30:45):
You know how earlier we're talking about how trust is slow, but distrust is fast. I think it's kind of a parallel here, which is that like winds happen in slow motion. Losses can happen fast. There's almost never the moment, the split second where the wind happens. You'll go and you'll give the pitch and you'll feel like you did well. And then you'll sort of get some indications that you're okay. You're probably in the top two. And by the time you find out for real, that you actually won you've had enough signals that you're probably heading that direction. You don't even have the moment. Maybe with this particular competition is not like that. But so many business wins happen like that. The period of the victory itself gets dilated out over time. And so like there's never a point to go "Yay."
Austin Senseman (01:31:38):
Yeah. In this competition there is a moment where they give you the big check and yeah, you did win. But even then, I mean you're right. That sense of this happened because of what I've done, and my team has done waking up every day for the last year and just sort of being in the middle of it.
Rob Collie (01:31:54):
Yeah. Wins like that. Wins in general are only appreciable in hindsight. It is hard to feel them in the moment.
Austin Senseman (01:32:00):
I think you need someone on your team. All of us, right? I'm just thinking about this. Someone whose job it is to like sort of stop you and say, "We should celebrate." When I say celebrate, it's not go out and have a party, but it's just to like take a minute.
Rob Collie (01:32:12):
You need a hyper. You need some of the hypes.
Austin Senseman (01:32:15):
Someone to appreciate what's happening.
Rob Collie (01:32:16):
Yeah. And they probably could also use the cliche. Like "I told you, nobody believed in us. We did it anyway. Give us a chance to pull this off."
Austin Senseman (01:32:27):
That is exactly what I'm talking about.
Rob Collie (01:32:30):
Someday we'll be big enough we can hire that as a full-time job. For now we'll have to outsource it.
Austin Senseman (01:32:34):
It sounds like someone's running your company that kind of does that, Rob.
Rob Collie (01:32:38):
I might do that from time to time.
Austin Senseman (01:32:40):
Yeah. I thought so.
Rob Collie (01:32:42):
I might have added a nobody believed in us custom emoji to our slack.
Austin Senseman (01:32:50):
I'm making a little note right now. That's fantastic.
Rob Collie (01:32:53):
Yeah. You track it down. You just colon, nobody believed in us.
Austin Senseman (01:32:57):
Is it a true story? That the picture of my face emoji is still on there.
Rob Collie (01:33:01):
Yeah, it's still there. And of course, because the custom emojis are sort of by alphabetical order. Every time I go look at the custom emoji list, Austin is first.
Austin Senseman (01:33:09):
Can I ask in what context that that is used?
Rob Collie (01:33:12):
I don't think we've used it very often. I'm sorry.
Austin Senseman (01:33:14):
That's great news. That's what I wanted to hear.
Rob Collie (01:33:17):
No. I mean maybe when someone is complaining about Pardot, we'll slap an Austin on there. But when someone's appreciating our hiring process and the Breezy automation that you also set up, we'll slap the Austin emoji on that as well, just to keep things balanced. Because that is awesome.
Thomas LaRock (01:33:31):
I just found it. That is awesome.
Austin Senseman (01:33:33):
Oh yeah. Rob, for people that don't know this, he hates software.
Rob Collie (01:33:39):
I do. I really do.
Austin Senseman (01:33:40):
And so when you're trying to bring efficiency into a company... There's this one relationship between software and efficiency. But you can imagine more software comes into play. And I had like a relatively low hit rate with software, right? We would introduce something, right? And Rob would be like, "What is this?" And maybe Breezy could sponsor part of this episode as well. That hiring platform definitely was a win.
Rob Collie (01:34:10):
Oh totally.
Austin Senseman (01:34:12):
Yeah. I'll just do that a little more scale for sure.
Rob Collie (01:34:14):
We did a case study with them.
Austin Senseman (01:34:16):
Oh good. Okay.
Rob Collie (01:34:17):
Yeah. That was one of the things that we did as part of our PR effort was we went back and we're on their website as a case study because we love it.
Austin Senseman (01:34:25):
Yeah. Well it got it out of your inbox.
Rob Collie (01:34:28):
Indeed. The mistake that an Austin will make is committing to Pardot too soon, right?
Austin Senseman (01:34:36):
We didn't need that at all. Talk about a sequence of things, right? Knowing what I know now you're going back. I know in my business, I'm not going to need something like that for two more years.
Rob Collie (01:34:45):
Yeah. But the mistake that I will make is not getting Breezy, right?
Austin Senseman (01:34:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:34:53):
You can try to cast these things with strengths or weaknesses, but they're really just traits. That lead you to places
Austin Senseman (01:34:59):
Well, I'd like to say there's some learning that happens along the way too.
Rob Collie (01:35:02):
Of course. Of course. Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:35:05):
Well, Austin, I have enjoyed the heck out of this. This has been great.
Austin Senseman (01:35:07):
This has been great. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
Thomas LaRock (01:35:10):
It was all right.
Rob Collie (01:35:12):
Tom's here, he's the opposite of our hype man. He's like "Yeah, no one believed in us and they were right."
Thomas LaRock (01:35:19):
And they still don't. They still don't, Rob.
Austin Senseman (01:35:21):
Especially me.
Rob Collie (01:35:22):
We suck, yeah. Worst podcast ever.
Thomas LaRock (01:35:28):
All of this could have been an email.
Austin Senseman (01:35:31):
You have had some great guest on. So my expectation with a lot of things in life is if I'm just the average quality guest, then that feels like a big success to me.
Rob Collie (01:35:42):
I think we can safely say that you were at par.
Thomas LaRock (01:35:44):
I'm going to say you affected the average.
Austin Senseman (01:35:46):
Thanks Tom. Thanks Tom.
Thomas LaRock (01:35:47):
You hae changed the average.
Rob Collie (01:35:51):
Notice the lack of a directional component.
Austin Senseman (01:35:54):
Incredibly ambiguous. Yeah. I'm an outlier in some way.
Rob Collie (01:35:58):
The average before this is not the same anymore.
Austin Senseman (01:36:01):
We'll let the listener decide.
Rob Collie (01:36:02):
We will, we will. Let the market decide.
Austin Senseman (01:36:07):
Yeah. Thanks for having me. This has been great. I've been really worked up this week with all the stuff we had going on and this was a fantastic way to spend the morning.
Rob Collie (01:36:16):
All right.
Thomas LaRock (01:36:17):
I agree.
Austin Senseman (01:36:19):
When will I be getting my check for doing this?
Rob Collie (01:36:22):
I don't know, man.
Thomas LaRock (01:36:23):
Well, you're not getting anything until you visit the Vasa, apparently.
Austin Senseman (01:36:26):
I see.
Rob Collie (01:36:28):
I need a picture of you in front of the Vasa holding Stockholm's newspaper. Not from today, because you're not there, but I need it to be at some time in the next two days.
Thomas LaRock (01:36:37):
And then the check is in the mail.
Rob Collie (01:36:38):
A man with means such as you, you can be anywhere in the world. You want to be.
Austin Senseman (01:36:42):
I can be on Upwork for a Photoshop person pretty quickly. That's what you're asking.
Rob Collie (01:36:52):
All right, guys. This is great.
Thomas LaRock (01:36:53):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:36:53):
Thank you so much.
Announcer (01:36:54):
Thanks for listening to the raw data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Lukep L U K E P at powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day
Matt Allington is a Power BI consultant, Trainer, Microsoft MVP, author, and a friend! Matt has worked for many years in the retail and CPG industries, has a very deep knowledge of Business Intelligence and Data Analytics, and currently owns a Power BI consultancy ExceleratorBI in Australia! Here's the link to Matt's book-Supercharge Power BI: Power BI Is Better When You Learn to Write DAX
Episode Timeline:
- 2:00 - Did Matt and Tom the SQL Rockstar previously meet each other?
- 6:25 - Matt's origin story is an epic and relatable journey of discovery
- 14:00 - The importance of process (and we adopt Matt's superior pronunciation of the word)
- 25:35 - Business, Sales, and IT (and once again the importance of Hybrid roles)
- 29:10 - The evolution of BI tools, and the best and worst of the bunch
- 37:15 - Structure VS Flexibility in BI tools
- 48:55 - Power BI and Power Query enter the fray, Excel people get angry, and everyone has the same opinion of Power View
- 53:50- The friction Tom got from adding Business Analytics to conference menus, and the birth of BACon
- 1:08:45 - Matt's connection to Rob's broken leg
- 1:11:05 - Training remotely in the COVID world, and The Collie Layout Methodology
- 1:16:20 - Rob takes exception to Matt's math
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome back friends to Raw Data. Today's guest is Matt Allington. He comes to us from Down Under. Now, Matt has a very particularly validating story for me. I bet my career in 2010 on the future success of Power BI. I just knew it. I could see it. And even though I was convinced that this was of the future, in 2014, when I crossed paths with Matt Allington, something happened. It was still, even though I believe what I was doing, was still incredibly validating.
Rob Collie (00:00:30):
This guy was a BI director for Coca-Cola, Asia Pacific BI director. As far as I was concerned, one of the sort of made men of the elite of the traditional industry. And after a brief interaction and exposure to what I've been working on, he called me up and said, "Hey, I want to go do what you're doing." And like I said, even though I had been so convinced of what I was doing and it was already working out, it was going great, it was still a really validating moment and just an incredibly exciting feelgood moment for me to see someone sort of cross over like he was doing.
Rob Collie (00:01:04):
Now in today's podcast, you'll hear that he actually... If I'd known more about him at the time, it wouldn't have been quite as much of a surprise to me. So a lot of things that we talk about on today's pod are things that I was hearing for the first time. It was really interesting even to me, after knowing Matt for as long as I have. We had a lot of fun. Hope you enjoy it as well. So let's get after it.
Announcer (00:01:26):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:30):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast with your host, Rob Collie and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:49):
Welcome to the show, Matt Allington. Sometimes we like to say the, the Matt Allington.
Matt Allington (00:01:55):
Thank you. Great to be here.
Rob Collie (00:01:57):
Matt, you were at at least one or two of the past business analytics conferences. Tom, had a lot to do with organizing those. Did you guys ever meet at one of those?
Matt Allington (00:02:07):
Yeah. I seem to remember passing Tom in a hallway. I actually think Tom from memory, you had just been elected PASS... Whatever the thing is that you got elected PASS leader is it or chairman or something? President.
Thomas LaRock (00:02:23):
President.
Matt Allington (00:02:24):
President. Okay, yeah. So I think it was that year. I think you'd been elected PASS president. And Rob, I was over at the PASS conference. I want to say it was in... No, it wasn't in Seattle. It was up in Santa Fe. San Jose.
Thomas LaRock (00:02:40):
San Jose.
Rob Collie (00:02:41):
San Jose.
Matt Allington (00:02:42):
Yeah. San Jose. I reckon it was that year. Does that sound familiar? Do you remember-
Thomas LaRock (00:02:46):
Yes.
Matt Allington (00:02:46):
...passing me, Tom? You remember I waved and wanted a selfie?
Thomas LaRock (00:02:49):
I absolutely remember you.
Rob Collie (00:02:51):
Oh, yeah. Matt, that guy.
Thomas LaRock (00:02:54):
That Matt.
Rob Collie (00:02:54):
The waiver. The mysterious waiver.
Matt Allington (00:02:57):
Yeah, the fanboy.
Rob Collie (00:02:58):
You're both figures in the community, in the data community, which is sort of coming at it from different sides. I was actually really curious coming into this whether you had to interact. I mean, you're familiar with SQLRockstar on Twitter. Yeah?
Matt Allington (00:03:11):
I'm a follower. I'm a follower of SQLRockstar, so yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:15):
Really? And you still agreed to be on the show.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:03:18):
Even though he was here. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:03:19):
Yeah, that's weird.
Rob Collie (00:03:21):
I'm disappointed. The two of you never really, truly crossed paths other than the waving.
Matt Allington (00:03:25):
Yeah. We haven't really ever met other than sort of through Twitter, but the Twittersphere is actually quite interesting because you really sort of... I feel like you can build a bit of a relationship with people and they're not the same way as a face-to-face relationship, but you sort of feel like you get to know people through these social media channels.
Matt Allington (00:03:45):
In fact, it was Scott, Scott [Zinkaresky 00:03:48] at that exact same conference that we're talking about that talked me into signing up to Twitter. And you know Scott. You can't stop him, right? So he said-
Rob Collie (00:03:56):
No, you can't.
Matt Allington (00:03:57):
... to me that this Twitter thing is the bees knees. Literally, I think even if I check my start date, it was probably on that evening when we were at the bar where I set up my Twitter account or very shortly thereafter. But yeah, I think you can really get to know people. When I have met people at conferences, you say, "oh yeah, I know who you are." Right?
Rob Collie (00:04:18):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Matt Allington (00:04:20):
I'm a real believer of putting a like image on your social media accounts, on your professional, social media accounts anyway. So Twitter and LinkedIn. If you want to do Facebook, something a bit off the wall butt I think that's a bit different. But as far as your professional accounts go, I think it's great to put a like image of yourself. And then when you go to these conferences, people recognize you. Right? And then if you've had a bit of interaction, you sort of feel like you're not strangers. I think it's great.
Rob Collie (00:04:50):
Yeah. I was really surprised when I met Tom, for instance, that there weren't like these multicolored stars in the background behind them. It was really off- putting. I'm like, "Could you like halfway put your hands in your pockets? Oh yeah, there is Tom. Yeah." I was trying to think, what would else would we do with our image? Like a glamor shot or something. But no, Tom's got a professional... It's an icon. He's iconic.
Matt Allington (00:05:15):
[crosstalk 00:05:15]. Sorry, about that, Tom.
Rob Collie (00:05:18):
I was.
Matt Allington (00:05:21):
Everyone that has a like image though is like 10 kilos, sorry, 20 pounds lighter and about 10 years younger.
Thomas LaRock (00:05:30):
That's a data guy right there. He just did that conversion.
Rob Collie (00:05:33):
Look at that, effortless.
Thomas LaRock (00:05:35):
Seamless.
Rob Collie (00:05:38):
He's a natural. It's a pleasure to watch you work. It depends. I was probably 10 kilos lighter six months ago. There's some peaks and valleys.
Matt Allington (00:05:50):
Then you spend a bit of time at home with a few boxes of delivered donuts and [crosstalk 00:05:55].
Rob Collie (00:05:55):
That's right. You know how food tastes better when you're camping? Delivered food sort of tastes better too. Delivered donuts are like an extra 20% above normal donuts.
Matt Allington (00:06:04):
Extra sweet, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:06:05):
So Matt has a very interesting origin story, I think in the Power BI, the power platform space. We are obligated to at least cover this. I've retold your story so many times because I just find it so compelling. Retell it from your perspective.
Matt Allington (00:06:21):
Well, maybe I'll perhaps go back a little bit further than I have before when I've talked about this story. Because I mean, the bottom line is I met you, Rob online virtually or via probably telephone back in those days. Nearly seven years ago, right?
Rob Collie (00:06:36):
Yeah. It's a long time.
Matt Allington (00:06:37):
I'll come back to that. But we were talking before about data, right? This is about data. So the truth is I'm a data guy locked in a business guy's body. That's actually the true story of Matt Allington. Now, if you want to go way back, I remember in high school and in Australia year eight was the first year of high school. We had a computer lesson. Now, this is, I want to say, 77 orders of magnitude. Right? So I'll give you some sort of sense of time. So the PC was released in, what, '80 or '81?
Rob Collie (00:07:15):
Yeah.
Matt Allington (00:07:16):
So this gives you a sense of the time horizon. Now, we had a computer class once a week and we had this HP something mini-computer. I think they were called mini-computers back then. It had a cassette. You know what a cassette is, right? It's like plastic. It's got holes in it. Spins the tape through. So that's how you used to save your software. I got a library book out and programmed something in Basic. I taught myself Basic to use this thing. I loved it.
Matt Allington (00:07:51):
I'd go in after school and program this computer. Then that was really the start of my love of data and computers, but I didn't go down a data and computer and IT path like many people who have that sort of gene tend to do. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying, this is what happened to me. So I often talk about there being a continuum of skills or styles, or genes, or whatever you want to call it.
Matt Allington (00:08:24):
So at one end, you have the most extreme IT person that you can think of. This is the person that does the machine coding, right? The person who developed the operating system. The person who wrote in, in this code that you can't even read and understand because it's directly addressing memory and peripherals and things like that. So that's at one end. And then at the other end, you've got this business person who think of the entrepreneurial, strategic CEO that's never touched a piece of technology in their life.
Matt Allington (00:08:56):
They do everything on a whiteboard with a whiteboard marker and they sell the vision and then someone else basically makes it happen. So these are the leadership people. I'm not trying to say these things are mutually exclusive. I'm trying to say that there's this continuum. And then everyone falls somewhere in between that, right? So you could at least philosophically put a line somewhere down the middle of that continuum and say, "At this point, you are now an IT person."
Matt Allington (00:09:26):
On the right side, you're an IT person. On the left side, you're a business person or a commercial person. I've always straddled that line. I could have fallen either way. I mean, the truth is there's a gray space, right? So even though there's a cutoff point, there is a gray area where you could be a business person with an IT bent, or you could be an IT person with a business bent.
Matt Allington (00:09:49):
So if you're an IT person with a business bent, you're a business analyst, right? So you understand the technology. You're actually an interpreter. It's no different to the early days when we had some people speaking French and some people speaking English, and then some people would do both. And those interpreters sat in between and they listened to one person and they translated it and explained it to the other person who couldn't understand.
Matt Allington (00:10:15):
That's what a business analyst does. Right? They're an interpreter because they're in this gray area between the most extreme IT person who can't understand business and the most extreme business person who doesn't understand IT. We need these interpreters.
Matt Allington (00:10:30):
I've always been in this gray space and I could have fallen either way. Frankly for economic reasons and luck, and whatever, I just spent my time in the business space. So I started working in a supermarket chain called Woolworths.
Matt Allington (00:10:50):
Now in the US, Woolworths is a bit different to what it is here in Australia. So Woolworths in Australia is more like Kroger or Publix. One of those more mainstream supermarkets here in Australia. Whereas I think Woolworths is more like Walmart in the US. So just keep that in mind.
Matt Allington (00:11:08):
But I started working in a supermarket and I learned about customer service. I remember getting my butt kicked by a manager one day. A customer came in and said to me, "Do you have any of this frozen chicken number 11 or whatever?" And I looked in the freezer cabinet. I said, "No, we don't have any of that." This is early days in customer service.
Matt Allington (00:11:30):
So of course she went and spoke to the manager and the manager came and kicked my butt and said, "Don't you ever look in the freezer. I mean, the customer can see there's nothing in the freezer. Your job is to go and service that customer and find out if there's any out the back." Geez, did I learn a really valuable lesson about customer service. Seriously, for probably eight years that I worked in supermarkets casually and full-time over the years, I really learnt what it's like to service a customer.
Matt Allington (00:11:58):
So even though I'm sort of in that gray IT data, I'm still a data guy, right? But I learn about business and customer service and the importance of clearly communicating to customers to treating them well, to listening, like listening. Oh my God, is that a skill. That's a skill that's actually through so many different areas, including IT. I mean, good developers listen.
Matt Allington (00:12:22):
But the difference is that a good developer that doesn't understand business can listen, and often what they will hear is a technical problem. What they don't hear in between the lines is the true business problem. This is where these people in the gray area, I think have an additional skill.
Matt Allington (00:12:42):
I think this is another thing about if you've been in commerce and you've got this sort of IT bent. You learn to be very curious. So when I go and consult these days... I'm jumping forward. But when I consult these days and a customer says to me, "I need this report," and I look at this report and I think, "No, you don't. You don't need that report. You think you need that report, but that's not what you need."
Rob Collie (00:13:07):
You think you need chicken number 11.
Matt Allington (00:13:09):
Exactly. But have you tried-
Rob Collie (00:13:11):
But have you tried chicken number seven?
Matt Allington (00:13:13):
Exactly. They're a bit small. But number 12, you get 9% more for less than 9% extra.
Rob Collie (00:13:22):
By the way, there's a bit of a cliffhanger in that story you told.
Matt Allington (00:13:25):
What's that?
Rob Collie (00:13:25):
Was there any chicken number 11 in the back?
Matt Allington (00:13:28):
I think there is. And I think history will say yes.
Rob Collie (00:13:32):
Okay. All right. Anyway, it wouldn't be much of a lesson if there hadn't been any in the back. Right?
Matt Allington (00:13:39):
Exactly. Anyhow, I think I've got off track somewhere along the line. I mean you asked me about my story and you were asked, I mean...
Rob Collie (00:13:45):
Hey, off track is what we do here. I mean, we don't spend necessarily all the time on track.
Matt Allington (00:13:52):
All right. So let me jump forward. All right. So school was where I fell in love with computers. At some stage after my supermarket life, I joined Coca-Cola. I Spent half of my life there as you know, Rob. So 25 years. I started as a Coke rep and I took that customer service experience as a Coke rep.
Matt Allington (00:14:13):
I'm not a sales guy. I never really was, but I was in a sales job. In addition to customer service, what I learned in that job was process. I really learned a good sense of process. It's such an important skill that someone has. Not everyone has to have it, but someone has to understand process.
Matt Allington (00:14:33):
I'll give you a good little anecdote here. So is back in the day, right? We had these, we called them route books. So that was like an A4 folder, which would be like, what do you call it? A letter paper folder with cards in it. You'd walk into the customer and you'd count the stock in the stock room, write it on this sort of thick piece of card and then go out. We had this handheld device, which resembles like an old Nokia phone that you sort of used to punch in the numbers and place the orders.
Matt Allington (00:15:02):
Sometimes when I stopped to take an order, I'd take one, two, three orders in succession. Always do the most friendly customer last so you can stop and have a cup of coffee before you move onto the next customer. Right? So imagine this. Get out of the car, go to customer one, least liked customer. Number two, middle liked customer. Customer three, most liked customer, have a coffee, take the orders, get back in the car, take out the book, key in the order for the last customer, forgetting that you've been to the other two customers and off you go.
Matt Allington (00:15:34):
So what would happen then five days later, you're sitting in the office and you get a phone call from customer number one, least liked customer. Can we bleep on this? "Where's my bleeping order from last week, you useless pile of Coke rep?" What learned is that I had this process that failed in operation. I could've probably gone with lots of different solutions, but the solution I came, the process based solution to solve that problem because of my customer service ethic, I felt terrible that this was my fault. It was my fault.
Matt Allington (00:16:09):
And the process based solution I came to was that when I had those three card stops, I just flipped the order of the cards in my book. I put the last card first, the middle card second, the first card third. So I'd get out of the card and then work backwards. I'd go to the first customer, second customer, third customer. But my cards were in the reverse order. Have my cup of coffee, get into the car, forget all about the other two customers. But when I flip the card, there was the second customer. "Oh, that's right. I got to place this order." Flip the card. "Oh, that's right."
Matt Allington (00:16:43):
But to me, it is just such a simple example of how process is so important because things can and do go wrong in business. And if you design a good process that protects against the thing, that's what process is all about. It's about protecting against things that go wrong, because if you rely on a human to execute a process, they're open to failure. Right? So I really learnt about process in my 25 years at Coke and had quite a few roles where that was an important part of the job.
Rob Collie (00:17:20):
I certainly have been on kind of a journey of discovery when it comes to... By the way, we've been doing a great job of translating between metric and A4 to letter and all of that. And for those of us here in the states, when Matt says process, he's talking about process. That's what we mean. Similar word, but I just want to translate that for everybody. I had a friend that I worked with at Microsoft who was from Canada and he was always making fun of Americans for saying process. He's like, "I just hate how it sounds process, process. It's process. It sounds so much better." I kind of agree with him. Process does sound better. Anyway, the value of process.
Matt Allington (00:18:00):
But I think these things go together. I think data and process go together. I think you got a bit of both. I don't think you can have all data and no process. This would be my experience. I could be wrong. Love to meet the person who's into data that doesn't have any process. I mean, just think about a developer, right? A developer is a process.
Rob Collie (00:18:19):
I was just going to say-
Matt Allington (00:18:20):
What are you talking about? You've got no process?
Rob Collie (00:18:22):
Okay. So here's... I'm going to be-
Matt Allington (00:18:23):
Oh, it's process?
Rob Collie (00:18:24):
No, no. I'm adopting your word, processes is better. We've decided. We're going to go with process from now on. I'm going to beat up on myself probably too hard, a little too unfairly, but this is something really interesting about our business is that one of the challenges from the very beginning that we knew that was going to be a problem. I knew it was going to be a problem. That doesn't mean that I knew that I had to solve it. It's a little different.
Rob Collie (00:18:48):
The problem was going to be that compared to the traditional BI business model, we're burning through projects at a much faster pace. And it's been our mission to grow. Our mission is to scale. We want to be a big organization. We don't want to just be me, which is great because everyone that we've hired is better than I am. And that's awesome.
Rob Collie (00:19:07):
So in order to survive and be profitable as a professional services firm, you need to keep business coming in and you need to keep utilization relatively high when the blocks of work, because you're committed to finishing them much, much more quickly than the traditional model. It leads to what Kellan, our president calls the Tetris problem. How do you take all these little smaller pieces of work? And by the way, smaller, I want to be very clear, smaller doesn't mean less valuable. I truly believe that in a shorter period of time, people with our methodology, and Matt, you're the same way, right? Your operation I'm sure moves at the same pace that ours does.
Rob Collie (00:19:47):
And this is why you're in this business instead of the prior one, which we're going to get to. But when you scale this, when you turn it into like a 20-person team even, wow, does it get hard. In the last couple of years, I have stopped saying a particular sentence that I used to say all the time.
Rob Collie (00:20:08):
I used to say when people ask me, "What do you do?" I'd say something like I run a data consulting business. It turns out I wasn't very good at running it. In some very real sense, it was my idea. I was committed to this idea for a long time and I'm on the path that I saw 10 years ago. So I give myself credit for that. At the same time though, oh my gosh, if we look now at how our business runs internally, the way that we operate is almost impossible.
Rob Collie (00:20:43):
The amount of internal process and data, like internal software, internal workflows that are both human, but also in large degrees automated, I actually consider that now to be a form of intellectual property of our company, that we have figured out how to operate at this pace and at scale.
Rob Collie (00:21:06):
And it turns out that I'm just really not the person to solve that kind of problem. I thought that just because I knew that it needed to be solved, that's all I needed. And Kellan, who we absolutely need to drag, kicking and screaming onto this podcast someday, has done an amazing job developing that internal IP, that internal... Let's use the cliche, the internal digital nervous system. But it's a mixture of digital and human that keeps us humming.
Rob Collie (00:21:36):
It keeps us profitable. It keeps us moving. It keeps us able to grow. And that is as much of a challenge as building like a piece of software and a complicated piece of software at that.
Matt Allington (00:21:46):
You're not a process guy, but you're a data guy. I think that's it, right?
Rob Collie (00:21:49):
At the same time, I have developed an incredible respect for process over the last couple of years in particular to the point where I actually think of it as a strategic competitive advantage for our company. It's just that I'm not good at it.
Matt Allington (00:22:07):
Yeah. You can actually take a patent on a process. Did you know that? Ooh. Yeah, you can take out a patent.
Rob Collie (00:22:17):
When I was at Microsoft, I got paid to patent basically anything. Use these three words together in a sequence. We should file a patent on that. In fact, this conversation is probably-
Matt Allington (00:22:26):
Patentable.
Rob Collie (00:22:27):
... running a foul of 17 Microsoft patents because right now, we're not allowed to do this.
Matt Allington (00:22:32):
I've got a bit of process in me but I spent my life in business when I really wasn't... No, it's not true. I am a business guy. I'm just not a sales guy. Now, let's talk about sales. Now, Rob, you said that you're growing your business and you have aspirations to continue to grow, and I'm sure you will, and be successful. But the person, the best person to sell that fantastic patentable product consulting approach that gives you hundred times more value than the price you pay in nine days, the person to sell that is not the person that's going to deliver it under most circumstances.
Matt Allington (00:23:16):
Maybe there's some special people out there. There's definitely some special people out there. But most of the time, the person... You know that person, the person that they love the hunt, right? So they like knocking on the doors. And that first no is just a motivation to get up the next morning and go and knock on another five doors. And then they get the sniff, right? "Oh, that I think I've got a chance here." And then they... That's not me.
Matt Allington (00:23:42):
I lived in the sales world, but the funny thing is we're very adaptable. Humans are very adaptable, right? So if you've got a screwdriver and you're facing a nail, you can actually hit that nail into the wood with a screwdriver, right? It actually can be done. Well, that was me, right? So I'm in a sales job and the truth is, I'm a data guy, right? But I'm in a sales job. But my goodness, I had the best data on my customers from anyone in that sales team. Right?
Matt Allington (00:24:15):
I could log into the IBM AS/400 and I taught myself IBM Query, I think it was back in those days. And I could actually extract the data that I needed for my customers. Whereas everyone else is getting these six inches, thick pieces of paper. You know the blue and white line paper with the holes down the side?
Rob Collie (00:24:39):
Yup.
Matt Allington (00:24:39):
And someone used to come around and drop them on your desk everywhere. That was data for every other sales person.
Rob Collie (00:24:45):
It was green here in the states. We call it green bar paper here, but that's okay. It's just the color inversion in the hemisphere. It's no big deal.
Matt Allington (00:24:54):
Yeah. So we all use that competitive advantage, right? It doesn't matter what line of business you're in. We all use the skills that we have to get the job done. So I could go into a customer meeting and talk data. I mean, I could talk. I can talk to a customer, and that customer service ethic that I talked about before, I'm more than capable of doing that. I can use data to my advantage. But I wasn't that sales guy as such. So I could use data to help me succeed, but I was wasn't the sales guy.
Rob Collie (00:25:29):
Either I wasn't aware or I didn't remember that you'd started in a sales role at Coca-Cola. It is kind of hard to imagine you in a sales role. It isn't your personality.
Matt Allington (00:25:39):
I'll second that.
Rob Collie (00:25:40):
I want to say one other thing was really interesting, which is that you mentioned that sales personality, the one that's hungry, enjoys the hunt and all of that, they don't really want to work for us either because there's no big kill ever. You're not selling the million dollar project with us. We might end up doing a million dollars of business with a particular company over time, but if so, it's a lot of projects. And the sales person isn't really important after the first sell, you know?
Matt Allington (00:26:12):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:12):
So we're forced to hybridize in some ways that you wouldn't necessarily expect, but as soon as you said that, I was like, "Oh, that's one of our issues is that we're not selling at Ferrari price points."
Matt Allington (00:26:25):
Yeah. But I think those sales people are on that same continuum that I talked about before, right? So there's a sales person that's closer to the center that's got a technology bent who is good at doing those engagements at smaller levels that the big million dollar project is not the most important thing to them, but getting a successful project of a smaller amount and moving on is fine.
Matt Allington (00:26:50):
So you just got to find the right person for the right fit. So I was the best data guy on the block. So you may have imagined this person. So we're in an office and we had various little remote offices. Maybe there was 10 or 15 people in the team that I was in and I was the PC guy.
Matt Allington (00:27:10):
So everyone sitting in their little cubicle. Something is wrong with Excel. "Matt, come over here. Help me solve this problem." At 20% of my day on any... Maybe this is why I didn't sell so much, I don't know. At least 20% of my day was solving other people's PC data, Excel. In fact, anything. Anything technology related. That's where I spent most of my time. Frankly, that's where I got most of my enjoyment.
Matt Allington (00:27:41):
I think every company has got that person. Right? So that person who is more approachable than the average IT support person with the IT support processes. So imagine if you had this Excel problem and you wanted to get it fixed, so what are you going to do? You're going to log a ticket with support and wait for them to contact you. No, you're not going to do that. That's not how problems get solved in the business world. It's, "Hey, Matt. Come here and help me fix this problem." Four minutes later, the problem is fixed and we move on.
Rob Collie (00:28:18):
Every team, it's not just every business. Every work group eventually develops this person. It's almost like they just coalesce into existence out of the cube farm. Because if you don't have one, you're just going to keep... Without even realizing you're going to keep hiring people until you get somebody that's willing to put that hat on. And then once they do, you never let them leave.
Matt Allington (00:28:43):
And if you think about it, the tool of choice for that person since 1980 has been Excel. It is the tool of choice because you can solve any problem. If you can't solve it with a formula, you can solve it with VBA. You want a mail merge thing? Let's go to Excel. I'll show you how to do mail merge. You want to automate the sending of an email? The same time, I can write that in VBA for you. Sure.
Matt Allington (00:29:13):
You don't need to come and spend $20,000 for that solution. We can do it in Excel. I'm not sure if Excel... Well, you talked about or implied the concept of evolution. I actually think Excel evolved with those people. They're mutually dependent on each other. If those people didn't exist, I don't think Excel would exist the way it is today. If it wasn't for those people contacting people like you, Rob at Microsoft saying, "We need this, we need that." It wouldn't be great if we can do this. Those people wanted those features and they weren't available previously.
Rob Collie (00:29:49):
Well, they would contact us and say, "We really need a chicken number 11 added to Excel." And we'd say, "No, no chicken number two. And you're going to love it."
Matt Allington (00:29:58):
Yeah, exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:29:59):
So what you've just though in saying since 1980, the tool is Excel. So does that make Excel the screwdriver or the hammer and what's the nail?
Matt Allington (00:30:10):
It's the Swiss army knife.
Thomas LaRock (00:30:12):
Is it?
Matt Allington (00:30:12):
It's definitely the Swiss army knife. If it was a screwdriver, it'd be Access. Right?
Thomas LaRock (00:30:21):
Do you ever come across a scenario, a situation where Excel really wasn't the answer and somebody's trying to use it in a way that they just shouldn't be using it?
Matt Allington (00:30:32):
Oh, most of the times. Most of the times I would have to say, to be honest. I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted here for this audience, but I always say the best thing about Excel is its flexibility. And the worst thing about Excel is its flexibility. It's so true, because it's a double edged sword. You can do anything you want and that's not always the best thing. I think that's the difference.
Matt Allington (00:31:00):
Everyone here loves Power BI, right? So we love Power BI. But to me, this is one of the big differences between Power BI and Excel is the structure, the rigor. The fact that if you have an error in an Excel spreadsheet and you try and load it in Power Query, into Power BI, it fails for goodness sake. What? I've put up with that error in that spreadsheet for years. Now, you're telling me I have to fix it?
Rob Collie (00:31:30):
Yeah. It's so sensitive that if your Power Query is trying to delete a column that isn't there anymore, it also fails.
Matt Allington (00:31:37):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:31:37):
It's like, "No, no, wait. We're going to end up in the same place either way. The column is not going to be there." It gets very sensitive.
Matt Allington (00:31:44):
Yeah. So I think that's the step change with the Power BI ecosystem, Power BI, Power Query is it's got the accessibility for the Excel world. Rob, this is how we first met, right? Because you'd recent... Not recently maybe. How long have you've been at Microsoft? Maybe five years or something like that?
Rob Collie (00:32:08):
I was officially done at Microsoft in early 2010. But really I'd been out since like the fall of '09.
Matt Allington (00:32:15):
Mentally, at least?
Rob Collie (00:32:16):
Well, I mean I was in Cleveland. We didn't do remote work back then. That wasn't a thing. But I started the blog in the website PowerPivotPro in 2009. So the first post. But I didn't really get serious and start writing decks on the blog or anything until probably January 2010.
Matt Allington (00:32:34):
Yeah, right. So it's targeted the Excel audience. So you came from an Excel program manager background and it was the Excel people, presumably with some of the analysis services, people that were brought together to come up with this new thing. But it was supposed to be accessible to the Excel person, right? The person who's grown up. I mean, one of the things that people ask me, not so much now, but certainly in the Power Pivot days of training was, "Can you give me a list of, this is what I do in Excel. This is how I do it in Power BI?" Because this is their mindset, right?
Matt Allington (00:33:10):
So how do I do some ifs in Power Pivot? That was a typical question. Now, of course there's a whole world of retraining around the differences and perhaps that's a bigger conversation in its own right. But the marvel of this product is it was targeted at the Excel user primarily, initially. Not uniquely because it's also targeted at the professional end as well.
Matt Allington (00:33:37):
But it was targeted at that group while bringing in some rigor and structure and trying to get away from the robustness or the lack of robustness of Excel. So a classic example would be, let's say you've got a 10,000 row spreadsheet in Excel and let's just for simplicity's sake, let's say you've got cost price and sell price in your column. You got 10,000 transactions and you want to work out the margin. How much profit did we make?
Matt Allington (00:34:04):
So in Excel, of course, what we would do is we'd go into the next cell and go equals the sale price column subtract the cost price column. And we would copy the formula 10,000 times down the page, hopefully using some control, double click in the bottom right hand corner to extend the range.
Matt Allington (00:34:20):
But the thing is we've duplicated, we've replicated that formula 10,000 times. That is a window of potential for failure, because at some point in time, when someone's down in row 9,723 and they accidentally hit the delete key, no one knows that that's happened, right? So that's the flexibility of Excel and the lack of robustness, which leaves the door open for an issue.
Matt Allington (00:34:48):
So of course in Power Query, you have to load the data. We encourage you not to replicate that column, and it's built on the fly with a single formula that works on every single row. And if there's an error in the source data, the error will flow through to the report and someone has to fix it.
Matt Allington (00:35:10):
We've always had this rigor in the SQL server world, right? One of the early things that I did when I first started out, so this is six and a half years ago. I started with a customer who had data, but no knowledge. And they wanted me to get their data and turn it into knowledge and insights and actionable reports, and those sorts of things. They actually didn't tell me that that's what they needed. They just said they needed help. So I told them what they needed.
Matt Allington (00:35:41):
Anyway, the data was in an inaccessible way. So I loaded it up into access. Go to tool, for me. And I think within the first half an hour, I hit the... Do you know there's a 2GB limit in Access? Goodness. So I hit that limit. I thought, "Okay. This is not going to work." So then I installed SQL Server Express and then eventually went to SQL Server. And I had to teach myself these tools.
Matt Allington (00:36:03):
Do you know you can't just cut and paste into SQL server? It's freaking incredible. You actually have to use this tool called SQL Server Integration Services. And do you know how freaking hard it is to use that software? It trips you up at every single step. If something goes wrong, when there's an error in my Excel formula, it won't freaking load. It's unbelievable.
Rob Collie (00:36:22):
That explains why I never learned it.
Matt Allington (00:36:25):
Oh, it's so frustrating as an Excel guy learning SQL Server Integration Services. I mean, SQL was pretty good. I got to say learning SQL was pretty good. Easy language, scripting language to learn. I got the concepts of tables. I'd done some IBM query programming as I mentioned before. So I understood the concept of writing these statements. But SSIS, oh my goodness, how freaking hard is that piece of software. Because it's so disciplined in what it does.
Matt Allington (00:36:54):
So this is the difference between Excel and Power BI and Power Query is I don't think the traditional Excel folk understand how free they've had it, how flapping in the wind they've had it all these years.
Rob Collie (00:37:13):
This itself is you've really cut yourself and thrown yourself into a shark pool here. Because this is my favorite, my absolute favorite topics. Although, I don't really bite. It's a pretty friendly shark pool. Structure versus flexibility. Just like we were talking about earlier with the IT versus business, there's of course a spectrum there. The story you just told, I think is absolutely true that Power BI brings structure to the Excel world. But at the same time though, Power BI is less structured than the previous version of analysis services.
Matt Allington (00:37:48):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (00:37:49):
The previous version of analysis services was entirely too structured. And that was a mistake. So the way I like to explain it to people is that like the old BI tools and the previous analysis services, the multidimensional analysis services, they all had this same sort of three-part hubris about the world.
Rob Collie (00:38:09):
First of all, this is a software engineering mistake. It's the type of mistake that a software and only really software engineers would make. Number one, the assumption is the implicit assumption of all these people working on these products has always been that the real world can be reduced to a series of academic mathematical concepts and constructs. You can translate it into symbolic notation, right? You extract the essence, find the bones of it.
Rob Collie (00:38:35):
Okay. So you can translate it into some formal concepts. That's assumption number one. Number two is that you can actually get there. You can figure out what those concepts are. You can actually communicate with people to the point where we can make that translation. And then number three, once you've done that, that's the way things are. It's never going to change. Nothing's ever going to change about the business.
Rob Collie (00:38:54):
So all three of those things are wrong, every single one of them. And so the formalized concepts of previous analysis services right off the bat, like is this a measure group or a dimension? What are your hierarchies? And these things became such hard strong constructs that two problems would happen. It actually had two bad, bad impacts. Number one was that it didn't fit the real world all that well.
Rob Collie (00:39:20):
It was hard to translate. It was almost like you wanted to change your business to fit the software. It was that bad. And change, oh my God, you need to change something. If something about your business changed, you might as well just start over in some cases. But those same formalized concepts also made it a lot less approachable. You couldn't even get started.
Rob Collie (00:39:41):
Every time I'd get started trying to learn MDX, I'd end up asking someone how to write an if. And 20 minutes later, we're off in hierarchy hell and this and that. There was no hello world. There was no easy progression. Whereas something like DAX and Power BI has a lot more sort of humble structures to it. We have tables. We have columns. We have measures. We have formulas.
Rob Collie (00:40:11):
We have these lines, you draw between tables. We have relationships. They don't have as much overloaded functionalities as you might expect from SQL. So it's a lot more modest about what it makes you translate into. And that allows it to be more approachable, but it also allows it to be a hell of a lot more flexible. So it's like this Goldilocks sweet spot of structure versus flexibility that is really unique.
Rob Collie (00:40:35):
I wasn't part of really anything to do with engine when I worked at Microsoft on Power BI and I certainly had nothing to do with the original analysis services either. But I did get to sit right next to them, mirroring Christian and Marius. Actually, I watched them essentially retrace their steps.
Rob Collie (00:40:54):
I had this almost historian viewpoint sitting in these meetings just being so fascinated with watching them sort of... And they just nailed it. It's beautiful. I mean, it is really something to admire what that crew pulled off. It's not often that you get two shots at the same problem over a 20-year timeframe.
Rob Collie (00:41:14):
Oftentimes, when you get that second shot, you oversteer, you overcorrect. You miss by the other direction. I'm a software cynic. I'm always beaten up software, but I'm truly in awe of what has been built there.
Matt Allington (00:41:30):
Yeah. But I think this is an evolutionary thing as well. We talked about evolution before. So the way things evolve together. I was reading or watching something at some stage about the way that the domestic dog has evolved with humans. So my dog, if I'm looking at my dog and I point something on the floor, my dog looks at where I point.
Matt Allington (00:41:55):
Now, if you do that with a wild wolf, the wild wolf does not look where a human points. Dogs and humans have evolved together, or probably in this case, more correctly, dogs have evolved with humans to have this gene of understanding, which has taken this wild canine and turned it into something that has evolved with a human.
Matt Allington (00:42:16):
Now, I think software and people evolve together as well. I mean, in many ways you built this analysis services version one and it was complex. But I think most people would agree that we wouldn't have got tabular and decks if it wasn't for the learnings and the shortcomings of the previous version, right?
Matt Allington (00:42:37):
So we take what we've learned. You said, Rob the opportunity to do it again from scratch. I mean, I actually talk about that in my training. I said just imagine someone comes and knocks on your door and says, "Hey, Excel guys. Hey, analysis service guys, how'd you like a chance to do it all again from scratch? Will take out all the dirty laundry and we'll just do it better this next."
Matt Allington (00:42:59):
I mean, what a fricking once in a lifetime opportunity. And the other thing is that technology is evolving as opposed to software, which is what I was talking about then. So let's look at Apple for a second. You remember the Apple Newton, right? So the concept of palm based computers is not brand new.
Matt Allington (00:43:17):
In fact, I had a PalmPilot when it first came out in the same sort of thing that I was talking about before. But the technology has evolved. So the iPhone of course was groundbreaking, but one of the key differences between the iPhone and the previous software that came before that was the hardware had this glass screen that you didn't actually have to push on it with a stylus in order to make input. That technology increase actually was an enabler provided you had the right entrepreneurial vision and right software design.
Matt Allington (00:43:53):
I mean, it's an alignment of the planets. I think when we talk about tabular and analysis services tabular and decks and Power BI, it's the new technology that was available as a result of improvements in memory and not so much solid state disk, I guess, but processor speed. The fact that we could come up with these column store database and make them practical for business. I mean, I don't think we would've had that window of opportunity to reinvent SSIS unless that technology was there to support it.
Rob Collie (00:44:27):
Yeah. Amir, when he was in graduate school apparently wrote two separate thesis, papers and one of them was on column store databases.
Matt Allington (00:44:39):
This would've been years ago, right? Sorry to interrupt.
Rob Collie (00:44:41):
Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know. This was probably in the '80s, right? So he's just been watching for a long time, waiting for the RAM prices to fall into a range where realistic business volumes could fit into main memory. It was like they just passed a certain critical threshold one day and off he went. But he also then had him and the team, they had the experience of what they'd learned about their... There was really no reason why MDX, for instance, couldn't have been brought forward. MDX could have been brought forward and used in the column store, VERTEPAC world.
Matt Allington (00:45:17):
Thank goodness that didn't happen.
Rob Collie (00:45:18):
I agree. I wouldn't exist. I just wouldn't be here. I'd still be trying to write that first if.
Matt Allington (00:45:28):
Yeah. So evolution of software, it's an interesting thing as is evolution of people, right? So I mean, ultimately we've been digressing, but you're asking me about my journey. So at some point in time, I jumped over to the IT side. So I spent eight years in supermarkets and 15 years in sales at Coke, sales and customer service at 23 years training about business. Then I jumped into IT and spent 10 years in IT.
Matt Allington (00:45:59):
So that's when we met of course, sort of towards the end of my time at Coke. But for 23 years, I thought I'm an IT guy in the business world. So on the 23rd year, I jumped and I went on the other side of that line and I became in the IT world at least thinking I was an IT guy. But you know what, the grass wasn't greener.
Matt Allington (00:46:24):
The grass was different. It was a little bit more manicured and had a little bit more resource against it. But the grass wasn't greener when I jumped the fence. I was just a business guy in the IT world then. There's just different problems, different responsibilities. I mean, I certainly learned an appreciation for IT in those 10 years. Goodness. Did I learn to appreciate IT?
Matt Allington (00:46:51):
I spent 23 years hating IT as a business guy. They're the people that took months to respond to your support ticket that the systems always break down, blah, blah, blah. So I certainly got to see the other side of that, right? So you've got a level of responsibility of up time and you need to be able to support things and you can't just let the business guy do the Excel spreadsheet.
Matt Allington (00:47:16):
You have to have documentation and processes and recovery processes and redundancy. It's no wonder it frigging costs so much money, right? What you have to put against this stuff, the IT departments are responsible for. But this comes back to my very earlier comment about the fact that you've got this crossover point and then you have this gray area. So the business analyst on one side and the IT style people in the business on the other side.
Matt Allington (00:47:43):
The truth is there are a lot of us out there. Now, I'm not saying 50% of the population. Not even 1%. But maybe 0.1%. There's 0.1% of the people that straddle that line. They live in that gray space. They're either business analysts working in IT or they're the in-house Excel type person solving the problems that IT can't or won't, or shouldn't solve.
Matt Allington (00:48:13):
So the truth is I'm one of those guys, and I suspect that you are probably one of those guys as well, Rob. I don't really know about Tom. But there's a lot of us out there and we have an important role to play because if you cut that gray piece out of the continuum, there's actually a bit of a grand chasm that a lot of stuff is going to fall through as you try and hand stuff over. I'm not saying that we are the most important people in the world, I'm just saying we're an important part of the-
Rob Collie (00:48:41):
Yes, I am.
Matt Allington (00:48:42):
No, we're just an important part of the overall process. Right? I think this is where Power BI comes in because Power BI and Power Pivot when I discovered it through you, Rob. I don't even think I discovered Power Query. When I decided to do this on my own, which was, it was early 2014, January or February 2014, and I remember having a chat with you, Rob. I was bouncing it off you and asking what your journey was like. I basically told you I was going to steal all your ideas and just fricking redo it because no one over here has heard of Rob Collie and I reckon I could be the Rob Collie of Australia.
Matt Allington (00:49:25):
So I made that plunge at that point in time, but I'd never heard of Power Query. So my business was going to be Power Pivot, InfoPath, and SharePoint. That was my business, right? Customizing stuff, using those three groundbreaking technologies. Now, as it turns out, one of them sort of survived until it didn't, which is Power Pivot. Well, don't start me on SharePoint or some of its newer cousins, but Power Query then came.
Matt Allington (00:49:59):
Well, it was already there, the truth is, but most people we haven't discovered it because the branding is pretty poor. So then came Power Query and then... I'm not sure what the history is. You probably know better than me, Rob of why we stopped or why Microsoft stopped on Power Pivot and moved to Power BI. But timing is everything.
Rob Collie (00:50:18):
Let me jump in there for a moment. I can tell you that even at the time that we were doing it, we were doing Power Pivot, the Excel team wasn't terribly happy about it. I had left the Excel team at that point and then been recruited. I'd spent a year in purgatory and decided I hated that. About that time, Amir came calling and said, "Hey, I got this thing going on." I'm like, "Ooh." But these are my friends over on the Excel team. Like actually my friends at that point, not just colleagues.
Rob Collie (00:50:45):
They were pretty grumpy about what we were doing because there was almost nothing they could do about it because they had an open... Anyone can write an add in so they couldn't stop us. They really just couldn't stop us. They'd have to like go to Bill to stop us. They had to begrudgingly go along with it. They didn't like any of the things we were doing.
Rob Collie (00:51:05):
So as soon the SQL team who we think of as the Power BI team today, as soon as they realized that they needed to decouple from the office versions that are deployed in an organization, because upgrading office is such a huge, huge, huge thing.
Matt Allington (00:51:25):
Let alone going from 32 bit to 64 bit.
Rob Collie (00:51:28):
Yeah. As soon as they realized that they needed to decouple from office and that they needed a more modern graphical canvas in which they could innovate a lot faster than what Excel could.
Matt Allington (00:51:40):
So Power View is not going to do it?
Rob Collie (00:51:42):
No. It was a... They just-
Matt Allington (00:51:45):
Silverlight? Silverlight is not going to do it?
Rob Collie (00:51:46):
No, no. It turned out none of those things actually panned out very well. Power View was the one thing that actually United the two clans. In the end, everyone at Microsoft hated Power View. The SQL team hated it. The Excel team hated it. It was universally despised. They try not to even talk about it. It's like, "We don't remember that cousin that we had."
Rob Collie (00:52:07):
So as soon as the SQL team took their eyes off of Power Pivot, it was over at that point because the Excel team never wanted it. In my opinion, that's a perfect example of how a big company can go wrong in a place where a small company wouldn't. Think about it. There are tens of millions worldwide of people who sling Excel in a BI capacity. The Vlookup and pivot crowd that I talk about, these people, like you say, percentage wise is not many. But in absolute numbers, it's enormous.
Rob Collie (00:52:41):
There's one or two on every airplane you ever get on. Microsoft owns those people. They own the people who run the world's data. Full stop. They have full capture of the audience that matters. And yet the other half of the company has to go the long way around to try to market to those same people because the office team has different incentives and different goals, and different competitors and everything. It's like if Excel and Power BI were a company, can you imagine how dominant that combined company would be? I mean, nothing could stand before it, nothing. But because they don't meet until Satya, it's like, whoa, whoa, I don't know. What are we going to do? We can't figure this out.
Matt Allington (00:53:34):
I think you take PowerPoint with it as well because you've got to be able to cut and paste those reports into PowerPoint. Right?
Rob Collie (00:53:39):
Of course. We're even getting signals from the market now that a lot of places, Power BI is just being used as a slide presentation and it's just mind boggling, right? It's too far the other way. You've been talking about tweeners, these sort of like hybrids a lot. Even in the young history of this podcast, this has come up a lot. And you asked if Tom was a hybrid. Absolutely. We wouldn't even be able to communicate. Tom and I wouldn't have been friends all these years. If you know, we weren't like the reach across the aisle type of crowd. Tom, back when you were part of that organization and you were advocating for business analytics being on the conference menu, you took a lot of grief for that. That was a lot of backlash maybe in terms of intensity, maybe not in terms number of people, but that wasn't an easy road to spearhead that conference.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:29):
No, there was a lot of friction. What was unfortunate when I look back at it is that it was clearly where the industry itself was heading. It was just very clear. Silos were being disassembled. They were being broken down. There was a lot of cross-pollinization happening and you found yourself increasingly being brought into a lot of different conversations and for good reason.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:59):
Now, my experience is mostly the Microsoft ecosystem, but the fact that the letters SQL made their way into no less than 72 different products essentially meant, "Hey, well, this is SQL analysis services. That's SQL. That's database. You're the DBA. So you should just be able to help me with this. It's like, what? SSIS. So all of a sudden, guess what, if you were doing SSIS, you know what you are, you are what we now call data engineer.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:31):
So there was a lot of this cross-pollinization that was happening and we saw that, we recognized it and we wanted to serve our members. Also, I was in charge of marketing at the time, and it became one of my responsibilities, one of my tasks to update our mission statement, which was to serve the Microsoft Data Platform Community essentially. It was no longer just a focus on SQL Server, it was on the entire platform. And that was step one.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:04):
Step two was as part of that, we wanted to have this event and we were trying to attract a new audience. We could have done a couple of different things. We could have just had the event as part of our main flagship summit. We could have tried smaller events, but we said, "You know what? We want to do something a mid-size tier." The first one we tried, we put in Chicago, which we thought was centrally located. Chicago and Illinois, and Wisconsin is kind of a bed of analytics. You've got a lot of people in Cleveland, right? A lot of-
Rob Collie (00:56:34):
Just up to our eyeballs, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:36):
Yeah. So we thought that was a decent location to have the events, but for some of our membership, and these are discussions that we should have that were necessary, right? Hey, we're devoting resources to this new thing. Is that really what we should be doing? You know what those are fair conversations to have, but some of the venom that came out as a result, and what you're doing is just flat out wrong. You don't know what you're doing. You're looking on going, "I am not taking anything away from what you already have. I'm simply trying to add a new seat to the table for a new audience."
Thomas LaRock (00:57:19):
Because having those conversations is going to make everything better for all of us. And yet, as you said, Rob, maybe it wasn't a large number. Maybe it was just the volume of a few, but that was frustrating because you would think those people would have, I don't know, enough judgment, enough common sense to understand that we're all in the same boat. And it'd be nice if we were all rowing in the same direction. They're sitting there drilling a hole in the bottom of the boat and you're like, "Hey, what are you doing? Hey, mind off. I'm only drilling underneath my own seat." You're like, "But we're all in this boat."
Rob Collie (00:58:03):
I even started to feel a little guilty. Not for you. Right? I started to feel a little guilty. I was helping to an extent in my own small way. I was coming to these conferences and speaking and offering my advice and all that. There was this vocal minority who was so pissed off about it like they were being injured. They were so dedicated to it that and I'm like, "Maybe there's something here." Maybe they have a point. Right?
Rob Collie (00:58:26):
So I made a point on Twitter of reaching out and engaging with one of these fine people to find out if I... And within 30 seconds, I'm like, "Oh, no. No, no. This is a bad person. This is just a bad person." Tom is on the right track. I never felt guilty again. I rededicated myself to the cause 2X.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:52):
I look back and I always feel we could have done things slightly different, but at the end of the day, the direction was definitely there. What we called, it was business analytics, which I didn't really like that name. I always thought-
Rob Collie (00:59:06):
But it was BACon.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:07):
Yeah, it was the BACon. It was the BACon. I actually just wanted to call it the data conference and we would've had data con. And I wanted it open to everything. I sat there going Power BI, I don't think existed yet, but I was like, Tableau should be here. It's all about the data and we should have built the data conference.
Rob Collie (00:59:27):
You're just not always right, Tom. It turns out BACon was great. I'm messing with you, obviously. But I love that conference. I think it's my favorite. And my second favorite is probably the financial conferences that I go to. It certainly isn't the pure tech conferences aren't as interesting. But not even as good in my opinion for drumming up business for meeting potential clients that you can help. You want the tweeners. You want these hybrids. That's what you want. You want the people who are able to see the value of both when they're combined and that's where we can add the most value.
Matt Allington (01:00:02):
I'm pretty sure the first one I went to the first BACon conference was 2015. So I started on my own in April 2014. I have this recollection that the conference was like within weeks of me starting. So I didn't go to that first one, but I went to the second one. I can't remember. Was there one in 2016 as well, Tom? I can't remember.
Thomas LaRock (01:00:24):
I'm going to say yes.
Matt Allington (01:00:26):
Yeah. [crosstalk 01:00:27] I reckon I went to two and then Microsoft came out with the Data Insights Summit. And then of course, Power BI was starting to happen. The numbers were not the same as summit, obviously. I mean, you're trying to build something. You had a vision there and then BACon was no more. You know what, I've never been back to a PASS event since BACon. I mean, I would've gone to every BACon conference that you had, but I've never been to summit.
Matt Allington (01:00:55):
I don't know. Maybe summit's got everything that BACon had. You know what? I don't know, but I've never been there. I'm actually your target audience... Not your target audience. I'm actually the target audience, but I've never been to a past summit. But I loved BACon.
Matt Allington (01:01:09):
Then I went to the Data Insights Summit, and I loved it. The first year I couldn't get there. Remember, they had a thousand tickets and they sold out. I couldn't for love or money buy a ticket to that conference. Anyway, so I missed the first year. Then I went to the second year and I just absolutely loved it. Then Microsoft, in their wisdom, they combined the data summit with Dynamics.
Matt Allington (01:01:33):
Let's put Microsoft Dynamics. And instead of it being a data conference, it can be a business conference. As far as I'm concerned, they completely marked it up. Someone from Microsoft might be listening, but I think they should be focused... I think there's a place for a data thing. We're the gray people, right? We don't care about ERP and CRM.
Matt Allington (01:01:56):
Okay. I'm sure Microsoft would love some of the success of Power BI conferences to rub off on their aspirations to have become an SAP competitor. I'm sure they would like that, but let us have our conference. Give us a data conference. I'm happy if it's going to be a... I mean, if you're going to have a data conference, why not be the Power BI data conference? I think it's nice to have it sort of product agnostic and include Tableau. But I think the writings on the wall, Rob, you talked about that Excel Power BI company before.
Matt Allington (01:02:28):
I mean, the truth is it's obviously Microsoft. I think the writing is on the wall. I think you're pretty ballsy if you're going to bet against that product. If you're a CIO and you're going to say no, we're going to be a Tableau. We're going to be a micro strategy shop because they've got mobile. You're pretty courageous these days, I think. So where's our conference? Microsoft, give us back a data conference.
Rob Collie (01:02:54):
Yeah. We should come up with an acronym that ends up spelling MATT.
Matt Allington (01:02:57):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:02:58):
We call it at the MATT conference. It's like what are we really doing for Matt. I would go to that conference.
Matt Allington (01:03:05):
Would you speak at MATT?
Rob Collie (01:03:06):
It sounds like a great conference. Oh, I would totally speak at MATT. Yeah. I do a pre-con at MATT.
Matt Allington (01:03:12):
Yeah. So, yeah. Interesting. It's very interesting.
Rob Collie (01:03:15):
I'm going to share a little bit of a theory with you, Matt, that we could just as easily talk about offline, but hey, why not talk about it in front of the public? So I think I'm finally starting to see the grand plan. I think I'm finally starting to understand the Business Applications Summit. At first, my reaction was the same as yours, like, "Oh, come on. Just a silly rebrand and a combination of conferences." But I think that the story is starting to become a little bit more clear.
Rob Collie (01:03:42):
So I was thinking about the other day, and for the first time ever, I realized that BI is actually a form of middleware. It's something that spans multiple systems. You can almost never get any reasonable insight just out of a single system. Even at our company to get an accurate cash flow forecast is like a five, six system problem.
Rob Collie (01:04:03):
And they don't all come from the same vendor either. You know? So it was kind of a weird shift for me to think of BI as middleware. But then there's like transactional middleware, whether it's a customer transaction or not. You make a change. Multiple systems might need to be notified of the same change. If an employee is hired, they need to be added to multiple systems probably. Right?
Rob Collie (01:04:25):
So you end up with this transactional middleware. So I don't have to go do five separate things. I can do one thing, and it kicks off all of the workflows to touch five different systems and things like that. Salesforce has been describing themselves for a while. At least they were... I don't know. Some number of years ago was like the operating system for your business.
Rob Collie (01:04:44):
I think that it's no accident that Dynamics and Power BI, and all of the power platform, middleware stuff like the power apps and power automate and all that kind of stuff, I don't think it's any accident that they all now report to James Phillips. And then Salesforce's acquisition of Tableau starts to make more sense as well. This is sort of like an existential grand battle of the heavens that's taking shape. I do believe as you were hinting at, you do not bet against Microsoft in this sort of combat.
Rob Collie (01:05:21):
This is what Microsoft does. No one does this like Microsoft. It's game over. It's lights out. It's just a matter of time. So the SAPs of the world... Do you really think? Does any of us think for a minute that Microsoft plans to long term seed the enterprise, the ERP market to SAP? No. Dynamics is mid-market. Yeah, but not for long. But Microsoft does know. There's something at Microsoft, especially the Satya Microsoft gets is that not 100% of the software at your company is ever going to be Microsoft, right? There's going to be lots of systems "best of breed".
Rob Collie (01:06:05):
The random hodgepodge that you happen to evolve into your history. They get that. So it's almost like the multi-silo, multi-system, nervous system. Power BI belonged to James Phillips before he was given any of this other stuff. So I think that what we're seeing is that they're positioning themselves to do the same thing for the middleware market that they've been doing for BI, right, is to slightly make it one level more agile, one level more democratized. And it's all part of the same thing is it's all about spanning systems. Now, I've put my cards on the table.
Matt Allington (01:06:46):
I think we're in violent agreement, Rob. I would 110%... Can you do that? You're a data guy. 110% agree with what you just said. But here's the thing. It doesn't mean we need a conference together. I'm talking about the conference. I'm not talking about the business strategy. I 100% agree with everything you said. It's brilliant, but let us have our own conference. Otherwise with Tom, with his BACon conference like why haven't all those people gone to summit? Why didn't they? Because they need their own space. Come one. Let's have some focus. Let's have some love.
Rob Collie (01:07:22):
I agree. Do I really need to eat lunch next to a Dynamics?
Matt Allington (01:07:25):
Exactly. Yes, we need them. They've got to sell the product. I get that. They've got to balance the books.
Rob Collie (01:07:31):
Yeah. They've got to collect the data that we ultimately have to analyze. It's got to go somewhere.
Matt Allington (01:07:35):
I like anchovies. They don't like anchovies. Come on. So I mean, three and a half thousand people I think was at the last Data Insights Summit, or maybe that was the one... I think it was the last Data Insights Summit. Something like that anyway. 3000, whatever. That's plenty. Let's just focus on that. That's what I'd love to see. I'd like to see Tom's original vision of having something just for the data people and all right, it's becoming a Microsoft thing. Well, I love backing a winner. Don't get me wrong.
Matt Allington (01:08:05):
I mean, there's plenty of things you can do with your money. I would prefer to put mine on a winner and go for it and go hard. But yeah, I just think we need... We're all the same. This is what we've been talking about today, right? Is that we are the same types of people. I mean, I am an introvert. I know you're an introvert, Rob. I don't know Tom that well.
Matt Allington (01:08:24):
But I tell you what, when I get to those data conferences and someone comes up and says, hello, I get them. Not the Dynamics people, right? Sorry Dynamics people. But I get the data people.
Rob Collie (01:08:36):
I have some great pictures. The pictures of that San Jose hotel lobby hanging out. We need that again.
Matt Allington (01:08:44):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:08:45):
I agree. But we're not doing any of that anytime soon. You asked earlier if there was a 2016 Business Analytics Conference and I know for sure that there was because I absolutely destroyed my leg right before that. I think it was your daughter, right? Didn't she drew a sketch of my mangled leg from a photograph?
Matt Allington (01:09:06):
I don't remember. I think maybe I was writing a blog or something. Oh, that's right. Because I got thrown in the deep end. I think you were supposed to be presenting at pre-con and basically two days before, I think I got a phone call saying, "Hey, can you do my pre-con?" I don't know if the rest of the world knows this Rob, I got a little secret out here. Rob's idea of planning for a pre-con is in the bar the night before. He says to himself, "What am I going to talk about tomorrow?"
Matt Allington (01:09:37):
So Rob shared with me all of the preparation that he'd done for that pre-conference and then basically I spent the next couple of days trying to put together what I wanted to present and it was with [inaudible 01:09:50] right? It was an [inaudible 01:09:51] night at that point.
Rob Collie (01:09:51):
Yeah, it was.
Matt Allington (01:09:51):
Anyway, so you break your leg and I think I must have done a blog article. That was back in the day when everything was super green on your site, right? Everything was green. So I got my daughter to do a sketch of Rob lying on his deathbed who was foot up in plaster. And that was probably it.
Rob Collie (01:10:10):
She did a bang-up job.
Matt Allington (01:10:11):
If I search it, I'm sure it's there.
Rob Collie (01:10:14):
I still have it. It's in our clip art folder here. I mean, I did her a favor and she didn't have to approximate any angles of where to put my foot. I did a nice 90-degree. All she had to do was just rotate the foot 90 degrees from where it's supposed to be and then draw it like that.
Matt Allington (01:10:30):
Yeah. Oh, I see you from your website that you did your knee in 2013 as well. So there's a bit of a...
Rob Collie (01:10:36):
Yeah. It's the same leg.
Matt Allington (01:10:38):
[inaudible 01:10:38] Okay.
Rob Collie (01:10:41):
That leg is permanently smaller. My right leg is now... There's nothing I can do. My right quad is now just permanently smaller than my left quad. I'm just going to be lopsided the rest of my life. No more scooters.
Matt Allington (01:10:53):
Yeah. But they were the good days, those conferences.
Rob Collie (01:10:57):
They were indeed. Wow, this has been great. Tom, you've been scribbling notes seemingly, furiously the whole time. Tom saves them up.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:06):
I was going to ask one thing since you guys do this training, I subscribe to the idea that when it comes to training, that telling ain't training, right? You have to put your hands on something. That's to me what training really is. And I've been skewered for this as well from professional trainers who tell me otherwise. I'm like these are two different things, right? So if I deliver a lecture, that's one thing. But if I really want somebody to learn, I'm going to have them put their hands on something and use their mind and their hands together.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:39):
So I wanted to ask about how you guys structure your classes. I assume that the people in the class are interacting with Excel and Power BI as you're teaching your classes. Yes?
Rob Collie (01:11:49):
Absolutely, yeah.
Matt Allington (01:11:50):
Absolutely.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:51):
So the question I really have for you guys right now is we mentioned a hostage.
Rob Collie (01:11:58):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:58):
Right?
Rob Collie (01:11:59):
Hostages and volunteers. Two different kinds of students.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:02):
Since you've switched to remote, and I'm assuming, Matt, you're doing more remote training these days as well.
Matt Allington (01:12:10):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:11):
How do you deal with a hostage in a remote situation? Because when you're live, I think the way you would deal with it is a little different. So how are you doing that today?
Rob Collie (01:12:21):
Matt? Do you know what we mean by hostages and volunteers?
Matt Allington (01:12:24):
I know exactly the typecast. I mean, I've been there actually. Yeah, absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:12:30):
Tom's right. I mean, when you're in person, you can sort recognize pretty quickly who didn't want to be there. You can try to recruit them into being interested. And then eventually if you fail with that, then you can just start focusing your attention on people who are actually absorbing it. But boy, remote is hard. You don't get those facial clues. You don't get that feedback. We've made it work for sure. It's necessity and we're still getting good results. But I do think it takes more of a toll on the trainer
Matt Allington (01:13:02):
Our experience has been exactly the same. So the process that we do for remote training is that we strongly recommend two screens and a camera, a webcam. I've got two screens at the moment. So one screen has the streaming coming from the teacher and the other screen has got your software application, typically Power BI. And you're actually going through the exercises at the same time.
Matt Allington (01:13:33):
We ask people to turn their cameras on. It's a little bit obtrusive, but the difference between able to see on someone's face what's happening and seeing nothing is like daylight. It is so freaking hard to train someone if you don't get any non-verbal feedback. So Jason, who's my full-time trainer, he did his first live training course in 10 months last week. He rang me after. He was so excited.
Matt Allington (01:14:02):
He said, "Oh, it's just so much easier to deliver face to face training because you're there. You're experiencing the feel of the room." These hostages are a subset of those people, right? They're the people who never look up. So you ask people to just look up when you're done and they never look up and you say, "Hey, hostage number one. Are you finished?" "Oh, yeah. I'm just catching up on my email while I'm waiting for you."
Matt Allington (01:14:30):
Okay. So remember we're going to look up when we're finished, right? I mean, we've made it work too, Rob. Exactly the same. I mean, I learned how to train Power BI from Rob, right? So necessarily my delivery style is we... I remember we had a chat about this Rob once before, but in my book I train people to lay out their tables using the Collie layout methodology, which is the way I learned from Rob originally.
Matt Allington (01:14:59):
But it just works. I don't believe we all have to reinvent the wheel. I mean, I could have decided to put the dimension tables at the bottom and the fact tables at the top and call it the Allington layout methodology. Right? But hey, why reinvent the wheel? Rob had this fantastic approach. I can always tell someone who's been trained by you Rob, or your team or from my team.
Matt Allington (01:15:23):
I say, "You get these consulting jobs. Can you help me with this? First question, show me your model. Oh, you've been to the Rob Collie Matt Allington school of learning. So fantastic. I know I can communicate with you. So fantastic." When they've got all the tables everywhere, you know we're in trouble.
Rob Collie (01:15:41):
Matt, I got to tell you, I have actually never circled back and told you this. I have been now told so many times from students, right? They're like, "Oh, this is the Collie style. This is what Matt talks about in his book." This comes full circle.
Matt Allington (01:15:55):
Rob, you could be famous.
Rob Collie (01:15:56):
Yeah. Tell you what, Matt, you and I just keep [crosstalk 01:16:00].
Matt Allington (01:15:59):
You stick with me, mate.
Rob Collie (01:16:01):
... back and forth, right? Which is like increment by increment we'll pull each other up by each other's bootstraps.
Matt Allington (01:16:06):
Exactly. Yeah. But I don't think we have to reinvent the wheel. Right? There's nothing wrong with learning something's good. And then let's let's just move on. We all add something to it. Tom, you mentioned the difference between teaching and lecturing. I mean, I really believe this. In fact, I'm actually just rewriting my book now. So I'm up to the third edition. So Rob, I know you've only done two, so this is opportunity.
Matt Allington (01:16:31):
But you and Ken Puls, I mean, you're just such easy targets. So I'm doing my third edition in my book and I just can't... I'm actually really surprised at how much change I'm putting into the book. So I'm currently working on... I just finished all and I'm working on the filter function at the moment. I've changed the way I teach that topic in decks now, because over the years of experience of being in those rooms with the students, looking at the feedback, realizing that it's... You know that look Rob when the eyes just glaze over and you say, "Okay, this message is not going in."
Matt Allington (01:17:12):
So you have to find another way. You have to find another way to explain the concepts. So I think we're all evolving. We come back to that same concept we talked about with the software, but you can learn how to deliver a message in a way that people understand.
Rob Collie (01:17:27):
I feel compelled to point that Matt as a data guy, can't count. Okay?
Matt Allington (01:17:32):
How many additions have you got?
Rob Collie (01:17:34):
There's an audio podcast, so not everyone is going to see this, but note to the audience Matt is about to see-
Matt Allington (01:17:39):
You're going to say you got three books.
Rob Collie (01:17:41):
See the truth. So here's the original.
Matt Allington (01:17:43):
I have that.
Rob Collie (01:17:44):
This is version one, okay? We can all agree. Okay. That's version one. And then there's the...
Matt Allington (01:17:49):
Can't count the PDF as a version, Rob. That's-
Rob Collie (01:17:52):
No. Then there's the Australian edition.
Matt Allington (01:17:55):
Oh, the mini me. The mini me.
Rob Collie (01:17:58):
Which is on the metric size scale. See?
Matt Allington (01:18:04):
It's 14% less value
Rob Collie (01:18:08):
And then let's not forget the Spanish edition translated by Miguel.
Matt Allington (01:18:13):
I forgot about that.
Rob Collie (01:18:14):
I mean, I didn't really write it, but okay, fine. As long as we're playing games. And then we have the actual second edition. Then the alchemy book that sold like 600 copies and then we don't even talk about it anymore. So let's just talk about in terms of time scale. You're going to be much more current than any of my books.
Matt Allington (01:18:30):
It's amazing how fast this changes. Right? So Rob, your first book was on Power Pivot. My first book was on Power Pivot for Excel 2013. One of my first introductory chapters was it's called a calculated field. Do you remember that?
Rob Collie (01:18:46):
Oh, that terrible, terrible moment.
Matt Allington (01:18:48):
So they're not measures. They're calculated fields. So the only version of tabular that had a calculated field instead of a measure. But yeah, this stuff changes so hard. It's tough enough doing live training where you can change the slides just before every lesson, which I literally do. But then video training, I know Rob, you've got your own video content. I've got my own video content. Books, they just go out of date so quickly.
Rob Collie (01:19:15):
So the thing is the second edition book that's out there and still sells very well is incredibly relevant. There's nothing really about it that's truly gone out of date, but it might look like it has. It has the appearance of not being relevant anymore. If the screenshots are all of Power Pivot instead of Power BI or whatever, right? And the audience knows that. So you feel bad about it. Even if people are still buying it and loving it, they're still just not proud of it. It does look so out of date.
Matt Allington (01:19:41):
But the transition is complete from Power Pivot. I mean, I don't know what the future is. I know how he's spending a lot of time trying to stabilize that product, but I don't see my opinion from looking on the outside in is that I don't think that's going very far. I mean, I have two versions of my book, Supercharge Power BI, Supercharge Excel. I updated them both together and the Power BI version sells 99 to one. In fact, I'm probably being generous there.
Rob Collie (01:20:11):
Wow.
Matt Allington (01:20:11):
So Bill and I have got a warehouse full of green ones and we've reprinted the yellow ones a few times. So suffice to say that the green ones will not be updated this time around. It's all about Power BI. And some people, the people that have been on the journey with us, they get it, right?
Matt Allington (01:20:29):
So if I go back through my old blog posts, I talk about... I've got blog posts that talk about data modeling and Power Pivot. And some of the newer people don't even know what I'm talking about. Whereas of course it's still relevant. It's exactly the same. So yeah, it's a challenge.
Rob Collie (01:20:45):
Well, Matt, I have really enjoyed this.
Matt Allington (01:20:48):
Yeah, me too.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:49):
Yes, Matt. It was lovely meeting you again.
Matt Allington (01:20:52):
Yes.
Rob Collie (01:20:53):
Hey, Matt. Can you give him a wave so he can remember?
Matt Allington (01:20:54):
I'll be the guy with a selfie stick saying, "Hey, can I have a selfie?"
Thomas LaRock (01:20:58):
Yes, that's him.
Rob Collie (01:20:59):
That's him.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:59):
That's him.
Matt Allington (01:21:02):
Thanks, Tom. Good to meet you, seriously. And it's just great to chat. It's been a while, Rob.
Rob Collie (01:21:08):
Matt, I'm really, really happy we did this.
Announcer (01:21:11):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P, L-U-K-E-P @powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
For Thanksgiving week we think it's only appropriate to discuss the alcohol industry. For this, we welcome P3 principal consultant and alcohol industry veteran Paul Boynton. He and the crew discuss the tremendous amount of data that exists in the alcohol industry, hostages VS volunteers in training sessions, the culture at P3, and some great uncomfortable stories from Rob's days at Microsoft. Any great holiday get-together has to include a few laughs, and that we do. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
2:00 - P3 and The Human Element
5:25 - Are you a hostage or a volunteer?
9:15 - Paul's Power BI moment of clarity
14:30 - Power BI Training stories
22:15 - The Gateway Formula
25:50 - To Maintain or Not Maintain the Status Quo
29:55 - Company cultures, Rob's epic Bill Gates and other horror stories
45:35 - Let's talk about booze, data, Category Managers, planograms and the Wild West that the alcohol industry still is
55:25 - How analytics leaves the computer screen, and how the human element comes into play
59:05 - Alcohol pretty much sells itself, but it's a data goldmine
1:05:00 - The 3 top opportunities in the alcohol industry for applying data more effectively
1:11:30 - Transformation in the alcohol distribution world and new ideas that are very strange and kind of cool
1:18:40 - PI Charts, Dark Mode, Dropshadow...you either love them or hate them!
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends to the first ever Thanksgiving week edition of Raw Data. And we have an appropriate guest for Thanksgiving week. Paul Boynton is one of the principal consultants here at P3 and he has a lot of experience with the alcohol industry. And we talk a lot about that industry. We talk about some of the unique ways in which it's structured, how it runs, what the opportunities are for applying data and Power BI for wins. But we don't only talk about booze in this episode. We also talk about things like how the mere existence of the Datesytd function made Paul bitterly angry when we first met. We talk about the differences between hostages and volunteers when it comes to being in a training class, and how every now and then a hostage turns into a volunteer. I forget how we got into this. I relay a couple of stories about some meetings that I had with executives back in the day at Microsoft that were relatively unpleasant, but at the same time treasured memories of mine. All that and more, he's a very funny guy. So let's get after it.
Announcer (00:01:05):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:09):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:27):
Welcome to Raw Data. Paul Boynton. Yeah, now we're going to have some fun here. Not that we haven't had fun before, but we're definitely going to have fun today. You know that whole tagline, data with the human element?
Announcer (00:01:41):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Rob Collie (00:01:42):
Paul we just need you to drop your robotic nature just a little bit for us today. Can you do that for us? Can you be?
Paul Boynton (00:01:48):
I can put the wall down.
Rob Collie (00:01:50):
All right. All right. Well, I'm happy to hear that. So you're a consultant principal consultant here at P3. I know that ultimately it's your boss here sort of asking a question, but what's it like being a consultant P3? Be honest.
Paul Boynton (00:02:04):
Okay, I'll answer that with another question. How does it feel as a CEO for your employee to tell you they don't think of you as their boss?
Rob Collie (00:02:13):
That's great.
Paul Boynton (00:02:14):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:02:15):
I think that's great. I mean, because factually speaking I'm probably just not, you know?
Paul Boynton (00:02:22):
No, yeah definitely. I like to think of us as more than just a boss, employee for sure.
Rob Collie (00:02:29):
And I like to think of myself more as like a mascot, like a religious movement and I'm just part of it.
Paul Boynton (00:02:36):
You're just part of the mascot. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Who I quote in sight regularly in training and things like that. I get to borrow a lot of your credibility as mascot to make myself look cooler.
Rob Collie (00:02:50):
This is an appropriate use of me, yes.
Paul Boynton (00:02:52):
Say, "Hey folks, Rob says, 'People don't know what they want till they've seen what they asked for.'" And that just, saying it came from you all of a sudden makes it way cooler.
Rob Collie (00:03:04):
There's an authenticity about that. Some people would absolutely just say just to share the principle. I can't do that. If it comes from someone else, I am compelled to immediately before I even say it attribute it to someone one else. But I've been on calls with certain executives from Microsoft when we're talking to a customer or something like that. And the executive will use one of my lines as if it was his originally, and I'm on the call.
Paul Boynton (00:03:30):
Hah, hah.
Rob Collie (00:03:33):
You won't.
Paul Boynton (00:03:34):
Yeah. One of my favorite quotes that I came up with just now.
Rob Collie (00:03:38):
Yeah,
Paul Boynton (00:03:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:03:41):
So.
Paul Boynton (00:03:42):
Yeah, you're filled with those, so yeah. I definitely think this company, that human element is for real, it's a really special group of people that you've assembled here. So really glad to be on talking to you.
Rob Collie (00:03:55):
And I didn't set out to assemble such an interesting human group. I didn't, the interview that I designed five years ago, and we've refined a bit since then and certainly gotten really good at scaling it. I was just looking for people who could do the job.
Paul Boynton (00:04:14):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:04:14):
There wasn't anything on there that was looking for, "Ah, are you going to be fun to work with. Or you're going to be stimulating or enjoyable to work with." There wasn't anything like that.
Paul Boynton (00:04:23):
No.
Rob Collie (00:04:23):
In theory a robot could pass the test, right?
Paul Boynton (00:04:27):
In theory.
Rob Collie (00:04:28):
But no. So we end up with some really, really, really compelling people. Just a lot of fun to be around. And that's a bonus as opposed to, it wasn't a requirement.
Paul Boynton (00:04:38):
What was the pass rate again for the actual case?
Rob Collie (00:04:42):
I think we make offers in 2% or less-
Paul Boynton (00:04:45):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:04:45):
... of scenarios, yeah.
Paul Boynton (00:04:47):
Somehow you've managed to create a process that brings together a number of shared attributes. Like the love of grilling.
Rob Collie (00:04:54):
Yeah, there's nothing-
Paul Boynton (00:04:55):
Barbecue.
Rob Collie (00:04:56):
There's nothing about grilling in the interview.
Paul Boynton (00:04:59):
No, but a lot of us love grilling and meats. Another one is board games. People love board games, which is special, and beards strangely enough.
Rob Collie (00:05:10):
Which is weird. Because I'm not really into any of those things.
Paul Boynton (00:05:14):
And yet, and yet, flies to honey.
Rob Collie (00:05:18):
Yeah. All right. So let's start with where you and I first crossed paths. When we crossed paths, we had no idea that we'd actually end up working together.
Paul Boynton (00:05:26):
Absolutely not.
Rob Collie (00:05:27):
The first day that we were interacting I remarked that I wish I had been like recording the whole thing from my point of view with Google glass or something like that. So set the stage for us, Paul.
Paul Boynton (00:05:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:40):
What was going on there?
Paul Boynton (00:05:41):
Yeah, and this will probably come up a little later. I was a category manager at Constellation Brands and you had come in to teach Foundations for us. So the Constellation leadership brought in P3 to do Power BI training. And I was one of what you refer to in the industry as a hostage.
Rob Collie (00:06:02):
Yeah, and we talk about this a lot. We talk about hostages and volunteers, right?
Paul Boynton (00:06:07):
For sure, for sure. So I was definitely in the hostage group, these are individuals forced against their will to take trainings when they'd rather be working.
Rob Collie (00:06:17):
Who wants to sit in a multi-day training. That sounds awful, doesn't it? I mean, it really does.
Paul Boynton (00:06:21):
It does.
Rob Collie (00:06:22):
Yeah, I mean, it's just like, I don't want to do that.
Paul Boynton (00:06:24):
Let alone fly out for it. Even though getting a hotel is nice, but yeah, we had to fly to Chicago and really, I had no idea what the training was about when I showed up. I didn't know that it was going to do Excelly kind of stuff. I just knew it was a training. It was another training that was blocked on my calendar. So I didn't really even really want to be there.
Rob Collie (00:06:47):
You're just forced into it. And so, whereas when we hold one of our public classes where people can sign up, it's not a private training for a particular company, it come from any company, you have to go out of your way. You don't just accidentally fall into this class. You have to go out of your way to sign up for it. That's the volunteer crowd. And it's a different kind of crowd. When we go do a class for an individual company, there's one volunteer in the room, the person who thought it was a good idea. At least half the room that's just like, oh my gosh, two or three days of this, this is going to suck.
Paul Boynton (00:07:18):
And we also don't project an agenda at the front either very intentionally, which-
Rob Collie (00:07:25):
That's true.
Paul Boynton (00:07:25):
Which can also make people uncomfortable. You really don't know what you're getting into with the training.
Rob Collie (00:07:34):
Just other than it's going to be amazing anyway.
Paul Boynton (00:07:36):
That would be, you start out with intro to happy and we don't believe you. And then slowly but surely then we buy in. So yeah, so I was definitely in the hostage group.
Rob Collie (00:07:45):
So were you even really paying attention at the beginning?
Paul Boynton (00:07:48):
Probably not.
Rob Collie (00:07:49):
Probably checking out a little bit. We try really hard. I try really hard to hold everyone's attention. It's why I'm so exhausted at the end of a class.
Paul Boynton (00:07:59):
At the same, I'm not a one foot in one foot out kind of person. That's just not how my brain operates. So even with my girlfriend, for example, she'll have shows that she watches I don't care for, but in the nature of compromise you say, "Okay, I'll watch this show with you." But I don't just watch Real House Wives or something passively. I get into it because if I'm going to be there, I might as well say, "Okay, so what's going on with this relationship," and something like that. So even though I'm not personally invested really, because I care about this other person I am. And so as a show of respect to you spending your time teaching me, I probably cared in the same way that I care about Real Housewives. Watching that with my girlfriend.
Rob Collie (00:08:44):
There's no higher compliment that I could be paid.
Paul Boynton (00:08:47):
I thought you'd feel that way.
Rob Collie (00:08:48):
So when you're watching Real Housewives, do you occasionally sit there, you're sitting on the couch and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh no, she didn't."
Paul Boynton (00:08:57):
Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. And to be fair, my girlfriend doesn't watch Real Housewives. It's more of the Call the Midwife style.
Rob Collie (00:09:08):
Okay.
Paul Boynton (00:09:09):
Anyways, so yeah, first part of the training, loose paying attention, but keeping up, it's kind of a sign of respect.
Rob Collie (00:09:17):
And then at one moment I showed something. I forget what it was.
Paul Boynton (00:09:21):
It was dates year to date. I'll never forget.
Rob Collie (00:09:24):
Calculate.
Paul Boynton (00:09:25):
Yeah. You said, "Does anybody have to do dates year to date calculations?" And my have my head just went whooz. My eyes opened up, I said, "Okay, how's this going to go?"
Rob Collie (00:09:35):
So for those of you listening at home, this usually happens late in the first day. So what Paul is really saying is he wasn't really paying attention for about six hours. And then I show this one formula and it's just so easy.
Paul Boynton (00:09:55):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:09:55):
And.
Paul Boynton (00:09:56):
Calculate sales, dates year to date, calendar date.
Rob Collie (00:10:01):
Yep.
Paul Boynton (00:10:02):
Enter.
Rob Collie (00:10:04):
Everything changes.
Paul Boynton (00:10:05):
It's over. You finished that calculation. This was an absolute nightmare in Excel doing these kinds of dynamic dates year to date calculations and so fundamental, especially to seasonal businesses and things like that to just, to understand these cumulative totals like that. So time intelligence really sort of blew my mind, and Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:10:29):
So your job there was category manager, which from the outside doesn't translate into does a ton of Excel all the time.
Paul Boynton (00:10:38):
People don't even really know what category management is, frankly. That makes no sense to most people.
Rob Collie (00:10:43):
Actually a very strange arrangement in a lot of ways. Let's definitely come back to that. Make sure we talk about.
Paul Boynton (00:10:48):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:49):
The weird relationship between retailer and supplier.
Paul Boynton (00:10:51):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:10:53):
So funny.
Paul Boynton (00:10:54):
It is. Yeah. That's [inaudible 00:10:55].
Rob Collie (00:10:57):
It is, but it's really intriguing. I think, especially for people who've never been exposed to it. So anyway, let's cut to the chase. I show this formula and from what, not quite the back row, but maybe third from back row, you were ways back there.
Paul Boynton (00:11:11):
I think it was the back row. Again, I did not want to be there, so when-
Rob Collie (00:11:14):
Okay, fine, I was trying to promote you a few rows.
Paul Boynton (00:11:18):
I respect that.
Rob Collie (00:11:19):
Okay. You're in the back and all of a sudden in this room, and this was a big room. There were probably 40 people in there, maybe more, and you just scream, "No."
Paul Boynton (00:11:29):
Oh, come on.
Rob Collie (00:11:30):
And you were angry.
Paul Boynton (00:11:30):
I was.
Rob Collie (00:11:30):
It wasn't just, you weren't smiling. You were angry. Can you tell us why you were angry?
Paul Boynton (00:11:36):
Yeah, I even asked you that question I think later. Just, I was angry because I was thinking of the 90 hour weeks and the late nights putting reports together and copying and pasting. And it just sort of hit me all at once the amount of life force stolen from me by a spreadsheet.
Rob Collie (00:12:09):
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Boynton (00:12:11):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:12:12):
I think this is the appropriate reaction.
Paul Boynton (00:12:14):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:12:14):
This actually is the way you should think about it.
Paul Boynton (00:12:17):
Right. And so I was angry at Microsoft, and it's a free add-in that you check a box and there you go. But it's buried in the add-ins that you got to change the comma. I mean, goodness.
Rob Collie (00:12:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Boynton (00:12:34):
It's buried. And I was just mad that nobody told me that I could have my life back if I check a box and type dates year to date.
Rob Collie (00:12:48):
Yeah. So the Power Pivot add in just hiding in there isn't really helping anyone, is it?
Paul Boynton (00:12:54):
No.
Rob Collie (00:12:54):
And now of course, years later you might just skip that all together and just go to powerbi.com and download the free.
Paul Boynton (00:13:02):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:02):
Desktop app.
Paul Boynton (00:13:03):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:04):
And off you go. So it's just all sitting right there and no one was telling you about it. So that's why I wanted it recorded at the time was that your reaction of anger? Like, "Why have I been deprived of this?"
Paul Boynton (00:13:14):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:13:15):
That is, it's your life.
Paul Boynton (00:13:17):
It is. And I do talk about that in my trainings. I talk about life force. I use that word being given back to you. There is a report in the about me slide where normally consultants put their face and say, "Here's all the cool reasons I'm important and why you should listen to me." I just tell the story of this report I built. And one of the aspects is it used to take 400 hours a year of my life, working hours a year of my life to produce this biweekly report. And then using Power BI that came down to two hours a year. So that gives you perspective on not only the efficiency of the tool, but just the waste generated by the current process that the current tools produce. And a lot of that was just copying and pasting and doing checks. I mean, it just, it was a waste. It was a waste.
Rob Collie (00:14:12):
Is not just an amount of time. The contents of that time are particularly dehumanizing.
Paul Boynton (00:14:19):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:20):
It's not smart work. You need to be a smart person to know where you're headed, but then you go do hundreds of hours of dumb work, repetitive tedious to get there.
Paul Boynton (00:14:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:14:33):
If you're listening to this and you're either your contemplating what BI tool to adopt or like most of the world you're still up to your eyeballs in spreadsheets. Something I tell people anyway all the time is that like, "If I told you the truth about how much better this is, you will not believe me." So I almost have to undersell it. You just talked about a 200X time saved.
Paul Boynton (00:14:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:15:02):
Who is ever going to believe 200 X until you do it?
Paul Boynton (00:15:07):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:15:08):
Until you do it.
Paul Boynton (00:15:09):
Until you feel it as well. Until you feel what that release, that relief is like. That's the other piece is knowing what it can do, but then committing to actually learning it. Those are very different things. And when I conclude the trainings, I really, I pull out my soapbox and I just tell them, "Hey, this is worth while. The sooner you decide to commit to reinforcing what we've learned over the past few days, the better and better you're going to feel about that decision. Don't put it off."
Rob Collie (00:15:42):
I think you're really wise to lean into your personal journey when you're sharing this all with others, when you're committing a class or even you're doing some consulting work with someone. When someone's setting out to become a public speaker for the first time, it's usually pretty terrifying. I'm not saying this is your first time be as a public speaker. I'm saying in general for other people.
Paul Boynton (00:16:00):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:16:00):
Because we know it's not your first time. We'll get back to that. But one piece of advice I always like to give people and it's cliche, you've probably heard it before. Everyone's probably heard it before, but just in case, that you are the world's number one, leading expert, foremost authority on your own story.
Paul Boynton (00:16:17):
I like that.
Rob Collie (00:16:18):
And so you can go up there, don't talk about yourself necessarily like in a self-serving nature, but you relate an authentic path that you've been on and not yeah, you literally are. You can have full confidence in that.
Paul Boynton (00:16:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:16:32):
And the audience appreciates it too.
Paul Boynton (00:16:33):
And that we make mistakes, that this is hard when you get started. I don't know everything. I don't know everything about this, no way, but I'm learning and I continue to learn and I continue to see benefit from that. So I want them to feel that too. I did originally apply to P3 to be a trainer. I wanted to do that more than really the consulting work. Just because of that visceral, oh, come on feeling that I got in the training I wanted to give that to more people. And in the trainings I do now there's usually one person. It just turns on for them, the light bulb then, oh my gosh. Then they start the possibilities. The worlds they can explore start to flood in.
Rob Collie (00:17:23):
I had the opportunity one time to teach, years ago, I taught a foundations type class, Power BI type class to a team of Excel analysts at a particular company. And they didn't heed the advice to go immediately apply it. So they went back to their jobs and started doing them the old way, thinking, "Yeah, I'll just get around to it. I'll start using the new stuff next week." Next week never comes, you know? And so a year later the curtains had been on fire. But when I went there the first time they were so far behind. But now the whole building was on fire and even the concrete was burning.
Paul Boynton (00:18:01):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:18:04):
So one of the things that really struck me was that there was this one woman who'd been in the class the first time who simply couldn't have been bothered to be there. Now she was new in the role. She'd just been reassigned to via one of these analysts a couple weeks before. So the reality of her life hadn't set in yet. So I'm here teaching this thing and she's just like, "I'm doing the equivalent of just like," she was clearly on social media the whole time. By the way, students, if you're in a class of 30 or 40 you think you're getting away with something, no, you are not. We know exactly who's checked in and who's checked out, and I'm used to this. There's always, you can never capture everybody. But yeah, she was so above it. And sitting in the back and everything.
Rob Collie (00:18:46):
The next time, a year later, she was front and center. She was in the front row. She was paying intense attention. She was asking some of the best questions of the whole class. And then a year later I watched her on LinkedIn. She left that job and went to become a full-time BI analyst.
Paul Boynton (00:19:05):
What? Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:19:06):
And she, I mean, it was a striking transition.
Paul Boynton (00:19:09):
Wow.
Rob Collie (00:19:10):
It was really cool.
Paul Boynton (00:19:12):
What inspires that kind of transformation in people? I mean, yeah you could say, "Oh, exposure to the tool." But what is it really?
Rob Collie (00:19:19):
Oh, no. It was the year of pain and suffering that she'd endured-
Paul Boynton (00:19:22):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:19:23):
... in between.
Paul Boynton (00:19:23):
Exactly. It's pain and suffering. To me doing these trainings it's like, I really do feel we are the good guys and that we do in a weird way make the world a better place. I really genuinely feel that. Because yeah, these people are suffering under the pressures of the business. They're constantly having to find more efficiencies, hard, shut down their laptop when Excel crashes, because they're trying to do something incredible that is just impossible in their current space. So, it's that pain and suffering. And which is, like you said earlier, if you were to tell people, "This will actually improve your life." No way, nobody would feel, "Oh gosh, no, it's Excel. It's just another version of Excel." No, not at all.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:15):
So I got a quick question because, Paul, what you described. I tried to explain to people that, and it's not just a Power BI thing, it goes back to when I first met Rob and he was writing his book about DAX. And Rob used to tell me all this time how this stuff would change my life. And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." So what you described though, it's that I've tried to tell people that somewhere in Excel or Power BI, somewhere in there is your gateway formula, right?
Paul Boynton (00:20:53):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:53):
Like gateway drugs, there's a gateway formula somewhere in here. And I think sometimes in your training classes you guys almost are doing that jelly effect, because you're going through all of these formulas and you know one of them is going to stick to the wall.
Paul Boynton (00:21:07):
I like that.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:08):
And there's going to be somebody in that room at that moment that just yells, "No way."
Paul Boynton (00:21:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:14):
And it kind of happened for me. I was trying to find this, I thought I'd written this blog post long ago, but where there was some formula in DAX which just did this calculation and it just reduced hundreds of lines of T-SQL to just this.
Paul Boynton (00:21:30):
Oof.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:31):
And because my life has always, or used to always be inside of SQL server and T-SQL and so old school pivot type stuff. And how many hours did I spend on things like that when I could have just been in Excel, done the data and brought it back in. It's just, I forget which formula it was for me I was trying to find it, but there's that gateway there's that aha. And that also leads you to this point of where you say, "Can I share this with others? Can I make a living at this? This is sexy."
Paul Boynton (00:22:08):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:22:09):
I think that blog post might actually be on our site, Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:22:11):
Oh, okay. Maybe that's why I can't find it on my site.
Rob Collie (00:22:13):
The one you're looking for. If you're looking for it on your site, I think you wrote it for us-
Thomas LaRock (00:22:16):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:22:17):
... on our site.
Paul Boynton (00:22:17):
I did have a gateway formula that's worth sharing. It is a measure that returns the top 100 market items not being sold in a given store. So as a category manager, my job was to work with the retailer to make sure that all of the, and it was alcohol company, make sure all of the products have the right space and distribute, the four pieces of marketing, the product, price, place, promotion. Well, on the 7-Eleven account there's 6,500 alcohol selling stores. That's a lot of beer products at a lot of locations. So our sales people were having to bring these giant laptops and lean up against the bagel rack in the refrigerator and have three minutes to craft a selling story on the fly with the franchisee who's got 10 customers in line. There's a lot of pressure to bring stories to the forefront very quickly and very effectively.
Paul Boynton (00:23:20):
And I wrote with the help of [Narr 00:23:24] actually at P3 wrote this measure that returns those products and right there on an iPad, no longer on a laptop, our sales people could put all of it on an iPad, click the store and be able to say, "Hey, our product is the number two in the market not being sold in your store. And look here, you haven't sold this product in six months. Maybe we give the number two product a shot in that space." And that changed the entire way the Salesforce went to market. I mean, imagine that transformation. Everybody's now got iPads and they're one button press away from really compelling selling stories. It just, it was a game changer. It was a complete game changer.
Rob Collie (00:24:10):
That's the happy ending of that story. I could tell another version of that story that would be equally believable, which is, you went and you came up with this measure, this one formula to rule them all, and it's available on an iPad and it's going to change everything. And then someone looks at it and goes, "Hmm, nah, we're just going to stick with what we're doing." That happens too. doesn't it?
Paul Boynton (00:24:35):
Oh my gosh, yeah. I had to fight for these tools. I was fortunate enough to work on a team that was really, I guess you could say progressive, the 7-Eleven account is, 7-Eleven is a massive, massive retailer. I don't think people quite realize how large 7-Eleven is.
Rob Collie (00:24:57):
6,500 stores.
Paul Boynton (00:24:59):
6,500 alcohol selling stores. Yeah, it rivals Walmart. So there's a lot there. The account is very flexible in that franchisees are the business owners. They make the decision corporate. They sort of joked to themselves that they were professional recommenders because they can't really tell the franchisees what to do with their business. So they were always open to really creative things. So we got to do a lot of stuff other places in the company couldn't.
Rob Collie (00:25:28):
So it's not like McDonald's where the rules are handed down from up high?
Paul Boynton (00:25:32):
Yeah, I mean there's McDonald's, they have franchise too, I think.
Rob Collie (00:25:37):
They do. But there's a really strict code of conduct essentially. You can't fire up and start selling hot dogs.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:44):
And you have to use their equipment you have to buy from them.
Paul Boynton (00:25:47):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's definitely a mix of that too. And in the alcohol industry, I guess we could talk about the alcohol industry since we're here. There's a way of doing things in the alcohol industry. When it works, it works, and why change something that works? Well, you have this young guy or come couple guys coming in and saying, "We can actually put these on an iPad and we can make more money." And you just get these blank stares because it just, it doesn't make sense that that would be one worthwhile to do.
Rob Collie (00:26:24):
Now you used the words a couple guys, because in this case it was a couple guys.
Paul Boynton (00:26:27):
It was, it was.
Rob Collie (00:26:28):
Yeah, because you're not saying that in general, it was you and another and another guy, right?
Paul Boynton (00:26:32):
Shout out to Mike Neff, my brother in arms.
Rob Collie (00:26:35):
Mm-hmm (affirmative), respect.
Paul Boynton (00:26:36):
Respect, respect. Yeah. Because we fought this, the contrast you made earlier. The other side of that story is you make this amazing tool and nobody gets to use it because it's just not approved.
Rob Collie (00:26:49):
I think it's written that you got to fight for your right to data.
Paul Boynton (00:26:54):
To data, yeah.
Rob Collie (00:26:56):
Yeah, I've heard that somewhere.
Paul Boynton (00:26:58):
Yeah, I really.
Rob Collie (00:26:59):
It's kind of burned into my brain for some reason that I don't know, like a guitar riff or something.
Paul Boynton (00:27:03):
Well, it's just not good enough to have great analytics anymore. You have to have a great story. You have to, you have to, people have to buy in. It's just not good enough. The most impactful report, even sometimes the most beautiful report can wither because the individuals, the brilliant people behind putting those analytics together, they don't know how to sell it. And so this space where you have business intelligence, this big data and these really cool visualizations, the piece that can't go on, the how-to document is having an individual know how to communicate this to leadership and really sell it, is a special person.
Rob Collie (00:27:46):
I often say when asked like, "You know who our competitors are." We obviously have people who are in the same business as us. They don't approach it necessarily the same way we do. But our number one competitor really is the status quo.
Paul Boynton (00:27:59):
I love that.
Rob Collie (00:28:00):
If I could eliminate one competitor, it would be the notion that things can't be better.
Paul Boynton (00:28:07):
Yeah, it's a dangerous way of thinking too, really.
Rob Collie (00:28:12):
Oh, but it's also not dangerous. The whole thing, like you know no one ever got fired for hiring IBM or whatever. This is a recurring theme on this show actually at this point. And still to this day, but certainly in the past you think that a football coach, their number one motivation is to win games, but they're actually their number one motivation is to not get fired. And these might not be exactly aligned.
Paul Boynton (00:28:34):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:28:35):
The absence of flaws, the absence of perceived flaws makes it harder to fire you. So the more you conform, the less risks you take.
Paul Boynton (00:28:47):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:28:48):
You know-
Paul Boynton (00:28:49):
Gosh, that makes me uncomfortable.
Rob Collie (00:28:49):
Optimizing for not getting fired.
Paul Boynton (00:28:51):
Makes me so uncomfortable.
Rob Collie (00:28:52):
Optimizing for not getting fired and optimizing for improvement are unfortunately not identical.
Thomas LaRock (00:28:57):
I think you just explained all of Norv Turner's coaching career.
Rob Collie (00:29:03):
I mean, this is just human. This is everywhere. And this is something that culturally does have to be created top down.
Paul Boynton (00:29:12):
It does.
Rob Collie (00:29:13):
You're going to be rewarded for taking smart risks. It's not two strikes and you're out type of policy. You also, as a leader, need to create an environment in which bland conformity to the status quo is itself maybe not an F on the grading scale, we're going to set it at a C minus. You're going to get dinged for not thinking.
Paul Boynton (00:29:36):
Oh, well yeah. That would be interesting in practice. "Excuse me, Paul. You've been really normal this year. Very normal this year. Going to have to dock your pay for being unexceptional."
Rob Collie (00:29:55):
It's easy to say in a way, in my shoes, because this company started with just me and my wife seven years ago. So we've had the opportunity to build it from scratch. We've been able to have a culture that does lean that direction. It's a lot easier to do that from scratch and grow that way than it is to retrofit a new culture-
Paul Boynton (00:30:16):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:30:16):
... into an existing org, of course
Paul Boynton (00:30:18):
The size of the org also really matters here. Because I'm having a conversation with my CEO right now. That wouldn't happen in the other organizations I've worked in. I mean, it was rare. I think maybe one of my favorite CEOs is Sam Gilliland, Saber Travel Network. This is a guy who met me once at an intern luncheon, just welcoming the summer interns. Next time I saw him passing in the hallway, knew my first and last name and what program I was in during the internship. He's like, "Hey, how's it going over there in brand? Paul Boynton, hey, how's it going over there in brand marketing?" It just blew me away. But that is so rare to have that kind of intimacy with your decision makers.
Rob Collie (00:31:07):
I'm pretty sure that Bill Gates would remember me, because again, he has that recall from our one interaction and remember my name and all of that. And then remember how stupid he thought I was. He might even remember all of the insulting things that he said to all of us. It wasn't just me.
Paul Boynton (00:31:23):
Right.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:23):
I was going to say, just you.
Rob Collie (00:31:25):
No, no, but I mean-
Thomas LaRock (00:31:27):
Wait, now I need to know, what was he angry with you about?
Paul Boynton (00:31:30):
Oh yeah. The Bill Gates story. You haven't told the Bill Gates story yet?
Thomas LaRock (00:31:34):
I think he has, I've forgotten.
Rob Collie (00:31:36):
Not on the show, I don't think.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:37):
Oh no, not on the show.
Rob Collie (00:31:38):
So we were doing a review with Bill, basically all of office's plans, everything that we've been working on in office around XML.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:48):
Oh, forget that I've lost interest. XML, forget it.
Rob Collie (00:31:51):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. XL and XML.
Paul Boynton (00:31:54):
If you're listening to this, skip ahead about two minutes.
Rob Collie (00:31:57):
Oh no.
Paul Boynton (00:31:58):
I'm kidding bro. I'm kidding.
Rob Collie (00:32:00):
This is fascinating, because when we have Connor on, we're going to talk about this again, which is, in the early 2000s the crisis of confidence or whatever, but the world of data was changing in some really fundamental ways. And the ground under foot was becoming really soft and squishy and you couldn't trust it anymore. And this thing we were talking about on a previous episode, I think it's actually our first episode talking about curly data and how data was sort of no longer just neatly shaped in rectangles in tables. And so while the SQL org was busy going all in on this XML storage thing to go side by side with the relational storage, which as far as I can tell was not very successful in the end. And it's been replaced by other things.
Rob Collie (00:32:50):
The office apps were having the same sort of revolution, XML. Everyone had to be dealing with XML. And so we were pitching our plans for XML and Office and I was in charge of the Excel XML plans. We were giving a demo, we were supposed to be really quick and just get over with and move on to the next thing. And Bill asked a question, and a series of terribly unfortunate things happened at that moment. This is like a one in 10,000 that these could all happen end to end, but they did. And this sort of thing happens in my life a lot it turns out. So he asked a question. So the first thing that was bad was that no one could answer the question, but me. It sort of like falls down the chain, you know? So none of my superiors could answer it. So it came to me. Okay. So that's the first problem. Second problem was that I misunderstood his question.
Thomas LaRock (00:33:39):
Oh.
Rob Collie (00:33:40):
The third problem was, is that the question that I thought I heard, when I went to give an answer, my answer actually sounded like a credible answer to the question he was actually asking. Normally you discover the misunderstanding when the answer is giving. It's like, "No, no, no, no, no, that's not what I'm asking." But instead my answer was compatible with think he was asking, but it was a horrible answer to the question he was asking.
Thomas LaRock (00:34:03):
Oh boy, oh boy.
Rob Collie (00:34:04):
It's like, oh my God. All right. So I mean, he was really, really, really angry. I mean, just so angry at us.
Paul Boynton (00:34:15):
That answer must have been really bad?
Rob Collie (00:34:16):
It was really insulting, the things he said. He was snarling and yelling and swearing and it was bad. And my boss started to figure out something was off, "Maybe I don't think, this isn't quite what was happening." So he decides to show Bill what actually happens with the product. So he clicks to show Bill what he thinks is going to show Bill that is going to be better.
Rob Collie (00:34:43):
Here's the next unfortunate thing. A couple days before our developers had accidentally introduced a bug, which had not been detected up until that point, which led to about a 45 second hour glass, like it should have been instant, but instead the hourglass just sat there for 45 seconds. So we were looking bad and all that did was just have us all sit there so he could go off on us for another 45 seconds. And I mean, it was brutal. And then it finishes and he looks at it and he goes, "Oh," and this is word for word. Remember, there had been profanity. There had been swearing, there had been pointed insults hurled at our intelligence. And he saw the screen and he goes, "Oh, oh, that is okay." And then the next sentence, "I'm amending what I said before. I'm amending what I said before." Not I'm sorry or oops. That was a silly misunderstanding or any of the social things. And the formality of I'm amending what I said before. After this weird mix of geek and sailor tear down swearing. It was just, it was really, really, really bizarre.
Paul Boynton (00:36:09):
Strong tonal shift.
Rob Collie (00:36:13):
You know, we moved on and agreed to never speak of it.
Paul Boynton (00:36:16):
Wow. So he took the next meeting with you never?
Rob Collie (00:36:20):
Well, yeah, I mean, you could say this is an accident. Even though I was instrumental in building the BI stuff for the next wave, I was tellingly absent from that meeting. I didn't get invited by my own team to go back. Because again, somewhere multiple there is up on the chain, someone was trying to not get fired.
Paul Boynton (00:36:37):
Sure.
Rob Collie (00:36:38):
Right.
Paul Boynton (00:36:38):
Oh yes. I get it, trying to not get fired, the incentive of trying to not get fired. I was on a job. There was a consulting engagement where one of the collaborating consultants said something cool. He goes, "A lot of work involves the spotlight. And when the spotlight hits you, you do your dance, your song and dance, and then the spotlight moves and you're off the hook." And so this spotlight is just traveling around constantly, looking for its next target. And your job is to just light up when it hits you and then get off stage.
Rob Collie (00:37:13):
Oh my gosh.
Paul Boynton (00:37:14):
And I love that metaphor for a long time.
Rob Collie (00:37:17):
Nothing describe 90s and 2000s Microsoft at certain levels, better than that. The reviews with the executives, especially on the windows side of the house, not so much the office side of the house, the office side of the house is pretty humane by comparison, but Windows and the developer platform stuff and therefore Bill and his culture that he had sort of originally developed at Microsoft. I mean, those people were vicious. And another time I was in a review, it didn't have Bill in it, but it had Jim Allchin, who was not a Bill clone, but also similarly. Pretty tough, really tough. And instilled fear and was okay with instilling fear. At bare minimum, you can say that he was okay with being feared.
Paul Boynton (00:38:04):
Fair game.
Rob Collie (00:38:05):
So this review with the windows vice president was supposed to be about kicking our ass. I've been working on something else, I've been working on this Windows installer thing, MSI technology. This is before I worked on Excel. This whole meeting was to grill us. It was to hurt us. And there were elements in the room that were there to undermine us. It was blood sport at the highest levels. And in the middle of all of this, while we're getting our ass kicked about something, we're talking about how we use the windows registry or something like that. This other guy Rob Short, who I actually really liked. He worked in Windows and it was part of this culture, but I actually really liked him. He's just been sitting there just like minding his own business. Like he just has to be there.
Rob Collie (00:38:44):
You know, he's just part of the committee, he's just been sitting there just like tuned out for hours. And when we explained the way that we've been using the registry and someone else had been criticizing the way we use the registry, Jim just goes, well, that just goes to show us once again, that our storage system is a piece of shit. And he turns on Rob Short and he just starts ripping into him-
Paul Boynton (00:39:08):
Laser beams.
Rob Collie (00:39:08):
... the spotlight turns. In the space of one second, Rob Short goes from being just like a disinterested bystander to like, "whoa, whoa, who, fighting for his life?
Paul Boynton (00:39:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Like a stage hand, crashing onto stage.
Rob Collie (00:39:25):
Yeah, man, I am so enriched by having almost court gesture type job in the room at those times. I didn't belong in those rooms in my 20s where I was.
Paul Boynton (00:39:36):
Yeah. You were a comic relief, I guess. Did you actually crack jokes or?
Rob Collie (00:39:40):
Oh yeah.
Paul Boynton (00:39:41):
Because this seems pretty dead in that room. It's pretty-
Rob Collie (00:39:44):
I was terrified about the whole thing. I mean, there was still part of me that was able to detach and watch with bemusement everything that was going on.
Paul Boynton (00:39:51):
Yeah. You know, let's see, I've got a fierce session coming up at two o'clock this afternoon.
Rob Collie (00:39:57):
It was like a whole day of fear.
Paul Boynton (00:40:00):
Well, yeah, this kind of reminds me of something. My mom says a lot, "Is you can never go wrong making your boss look good." And I just really believe in that. That's one way of making sure you're on your marks. When the spotlight shines on you is to, just do what you can and make your boss look good. They're supposed to be the people who fight for you. Not yell at not fight you. They're supposed to be the people who would break down barriers and give you the tools of resources you need to succeed. And so this person who's supposed to be giving you the tools of resources you need to succeed is grilling you with everything they got. Yeah, I wouldn't want to show up.
Rob Collie (00:40:42):
Late 90s windows at Microsoft was a broken culture. It had worked for so long, you know? I mean, this is the problem, right? When you're successful at something you don't necessarily know which are the things that made you successful. And so, they've been smashingly successful with this culture and Microsoft really kind of started with this culture. It was really clear that it started with Bill.
Paul Boynton (00:41:09):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:09):
Of course. We're just going to keep doing the same thing we've always been doing. It's worked for us. You get indoctrinated into it. It was something I've talked about before, which is nerd bullies. Oh. Almost every single person in those rooms who was being so vicious to other people, you could look at them and you could say, On yeah, I can see you in middle school and in high school. "You were getting picked on and made fun of and stuffed in lockers, just like the rest of us were, and now you're paying it back, sort of to your own kind. It's really unbecoming. We don't need to do that.
Paul Boynton (00:41:43):
No not at all. And even when a company, and really a company is just a collection of people. And that's all it is. It's just a collection of people. And even when a company figures out what they did right. Usually time is passed and now, "Great, You've got that understanding, but it's not going to take you to the next level." You know, what got you here isn't going to get you where you want to go. And so people end up sort of, they sort of trip and fall into a ditch of success. It's like, if you are successful, there's a tendency to, at least what I've seen in organizations to sort of ride those coattails until you trip and fall in a ditch.
Paul Boynton (00:42:25):
And then you go back and look at what went wrong more than how you should have kept up with what was right. It's kind of a backwards way of thinking to sort of wait until you fail to build more successes, instead of encouraging people to constantly innovate and find new things and fail early so that you can figure out what doesn't work sooner rather than later.
Rob Collie (00:42:50):
I think I just saw part of the matrix when you were talking, I saw some things that are almost interrelated, fundamental truths. So there's the Peter principle.
Paul Boynton (00:42:58):
What's that?
Rob Collie (00:42:59):
Whereas that you'll get promoted repeatedly by doing a good job until you finally get to a job where you're not very good. And that's where you stop. You end up being sorted by the machine into a place where you're not very good.
Paul Boynton (00:43:09):
And it's kind of a funny concept.
Rob Collie (00:43:13):
It is, right? So you got to be careful of this, both as an organization and as an individual. But then there's also the innovators dilemma. Where you've been successful and it gets you to a certain point and now you're kind of trapped by your own success.
Paul Boynton (00:43:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:43:28):
Microsoft for a long time had this, exactly this problem, their success was all tied to the Windows platform. And so when something like Linux would come out, their only move was to demonize it, seemingly. Back during the antitrust case when I worked for office and Microsoft was being threatened with breakup, in the office org we were secretly going, "Yeah, break us up. Don't throw us in that Briar patch."
Rob Collie (00:44:02):
Because we would then be free of the Windows monopoly. We could go build really good stuff for Mac. We could go build really good stuff for Linux. We may even build for Android. I don't know. The thing is we would be free to do what we wanted to do. What would be best for the productivity consumer without having to salute the Windows platform. Good news, bad news for Microsoft. The Windows platform has sort of lost, its it's still really important. I'm talking to you right now on a windows PC. When we run Power BI on our Windows PCs, but it's not the same stranglehold on the world of computing that it used to be by any stretch.
Rob Collie (00:44:38):
And we were talking about this with Hope in a previous episode that I think that the changing of the guard to Satya was obviously there's a change of personalities and all that kind of stuff. But it also you just really kind of needed to get the old mindset out. The new Microsoft is a lot more open to collaboration and integration with many, many, many, many, many different platforms. Whereas famously Bomber basically slapped an iPhone out of an employee's hand in front of thousands of people at a company meeting.
Paul Boynton (00:45:11):
My phone.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:13):
I'm surprised he slapped the phone and not the guy across the face.
Paul Boynton (00:45:15):
Yeah. I know, I know, both"
Rob Collie (00:45:19):
Like two thirds of the people in that room are like slowly sliding their iPhones into their pocket at that moment.
Paul Boynton (00:45:24):
Right? Yeah. Yeah. That was like bringing a Starbucks into 7-Eleven headquarters.
Rob Collie (00:45:32):
Oh, you can not do that.
Paul Boynton (00:45:33):
Yeah. That was, it was, it's criminal for sure.
Rob Collie (00:45:36):
Let's get back to that. Let's talk about booze and data. These are popular things. The whole notion of category management, which is a retail thing, it's not just a liquor thing. Let's start there. How bizarre is this?
Paul Boynton (00:45:52):
Yeah, very.
Rob Collie (00:45:54):
So, let's say I own a massive retail chain. Let's say I'm in charge of it. I'm just the emperor of it. We'll call it Retail CO. Well, I need stuff to put on my shelves to sell I have relationships with all these suppliers, Procter & Gamble for soap and jillion products, whatever. And then I need to stock my beer aisle. And so I need to have relationships with all the alcohol and beer supplier manufacturers and all of that. I need to act in my own best interest. I need to, as a retail owner, I need to make the most money possible. So the first thing I do is I go out and I put all the suppliers in charge of what goes on my shelves.
Paul Boynton (00:46:36):
It is bizarre. It works differently between categories. In the alcohol industry, what you described, absolutely correct. The category management role was born really out of, I think mainly groceries, I think is where it really started. So groceries, they have a bunch of categories and they need to procure products. They need to negotiate prices with retailers. They need to determine how those products are actually laid out on the shelves. It's not just random. And there's rent paid by these retailers for Primo spots, as well, on the shelf. Different areas of the store have of different price points. So trying to organize all of that procurement under some sort of procurement role really didn't make sense. So they split it out into the categories. They created a role called category managers. So there's the condiments category manager and the bakery category manager and so on and so forth.
Paul Boynton (00:47:35):
Well, alcohol is really different. There are, what we call the planograms for alcohol are much more nuanced and complicated than a lot of other areas in the store. Toothpaste doesn't have as many subcategories and package configurations as beer does. And it's also not as costly to, I don't know, chill and stock and inventory. So most will retailers rely on the alcohol supplier to draw the planograms for how the beer is laid out in the store. Because that work is so intensive, it's not cost effective for the retailer to do so. And the retailer has the space. So they get to say ultimately what goes on the shelves and what doesn't. But because the suppliers want to put their products on the shelf, the retailer gets to say, "You want to do that? Fine, I'll just have you draw the sets for all the products though, not just your supplier company's products, but I want you to also determine where all your competitor's products go."
Rob Collie (00:48:51):
Yeah, this gets weird, right? It's like, let's say I have five kids, which I don't, but if I did, it'd be like on one hand the analogies here would be like, "Turn into the five kids and say, 'Hey, between the five of you, I need you to figure out which one of you is the favorite one?"
Paul Boynton (00:49:07):
And they get to sit in the front seat.
Rob Collie (00:49:08):
Right, right, right. Or maybe more accurately is looking at the five kids and saying, "Okay, kid number three, you are my favorite. You get to decide how much food everyone gets."
Paul Boynton (00:49:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's I like that. And there's a validation process. So you have what are called the captains, the category captains. And that's one of the larger suppliers. We're not going to give the privilege of drawing sets for Walmart, for the thousands of stores, Walmart stores, to some craft brewery in the middle of nowhere. Your Anheuser-Busch's, your MillerCoors, your Constellation Brands. These are organizations that hire interns, have large personnel in charge of drawing sets for all these stores. And it's a really, really big deal. And that's why suppliers also have category managers. So even though a supplier is only responsible for one manufacturer's collection or assortment of products, the demands from retailers are so great that it's worthwhile on your larger accounts to have category managers on the supplier side.
Rob Collie (00:50:24):
It's just category managers all the way down.
Paul Boynton (00:50:25):
So there's category managers for the retailer. And in many cases, a supplier alcohol special and it's a little gray. But there's a validation process. So let's say Constellation is category captain for a particular region of a retailer. They'll draw those sets. And then it goes through a validation process where the other major suppliers get to have a look and say, "Wait a second. I'm only seeing your product in this store. That's not okay." And there's a round table where they sit down with the retailer and so on. So, that's the minutia of it.
Rob Collie (00:51:04):
That sounds like a lot of fun.
Paul Boynton (00:51:06):
It is, it's very labor intensive and so space, they call it space planning. So space assortment, the right packages and the right geographies. You've got to look at the demand. Is this a high Hispanic area than import products? Your Mexican imports are going to have more weight than other ones. So now that I've introduced that, imagine all the other variables that can be introduced to optimize an assortment and the layout, the actual shelf and the orientation of products on a given space determines how much can fit.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:46):
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Because this is a really weird arrangement you're describing. And I had no knowledge of it, what level are we talking? Are we talking? I can't imagine my local liquor store down the street, everything has been laid out by somebody else. It's Damien, Damien's the one that decides where the beer ago. So are we talking like, this for Costco? Is this just for some other, what stores are being laid out?
Paul Boynton (00:52:18):
Yeah, here's another fun piece here. So ultimately somebody has to put those packages on the shelf, right?
Thomas LaRock (00:52:26):
Yeah.
Paul Boynton (00:52:27):
So the alcohol industry is in a three tier system by law. So you have the suppliers, the distributors and the retailers.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:36):
Right?
Paul Boynton (00:52:36):
So the suppliers and the retailers traditionally are the ones that draw the sets and for the large retail change, those relationships are formalized. So, you'll have Walmart has a set of stores that all obey the same planogram. That's the law. This store must set the cooler to look exactly like this, every product in its place, so on.
Paul Boynton (00:53:01):
At the lower level, like what you're talking about, mom and pop liquor store down the road, well, they get control over their own store. They don't really have access to the Walmart data. So they work with their distributor to determine what are the good products. What's kind of the good mix of things to put in my store so the liquor store will have a good idea of what sells. And they talk to the distributor to say, "Hey, here's what's selling, how's our stock? Look on these kinds of products. What's new?" And the distributor has that relationship.
Paul Boynton (00:53:37):
But if you take it one step a little higher, 7-Eleven, for example, that's a franchisee model. So 7-Eleven corporate can't tell the 7-Eleven franchisees how to lay out their store, they can just recommend it. And even if they choose to accept it, it's the wild west for the competing distributors who then eventually show up and deliver the product. Because one distributor, it has the rights to Bud Light and another distributor has the rights to Modelo. So once the product is actually delivered, it's kind of the wild west. Now you can kind of sell on the fly and change things up.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:19):
So I'm a distributor. I show up, I got my product. I'm going to stock the shelf. Do I just move something else out of the way?
Paul Boynton (00:54:28):
It used to be that way. It used to be that way that you could really just go yoink, and just put that product in the back of the room, up still there, it still, I haven't stolen it. I've just taken it off the shelf.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:41):
And then the other distributor switches it back. He's like, "Why is my stuff in the back?"
Paul Boynton (00:54:47):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:48):
Oh my God.
Paul Boynton (00:54:48):
Exactly. And that's how it used to be. That's how it used to be, until we got the ability to draw these sets on a more systematized base. That's where this space planning really came from was to help sort of put more structure around it. But in the franchisee model and at these lower levels, it really, distributors also have category managers.
Rob Collie (00:55:11):
Wow. I got a real Bugs Bunny, like Elmer Fudd type of vibe from that situation you just described. Can you imagine a cartoon where they keep switching each other's products out?
Paul Boynton (00:55:21):
Oh yeah, it's unreal. Some of the things that you'll see where we were constantly having to check the retailer data and make sure the planograms were being followed, there were incentives provided to the franchisees for following the planograms. But we never knew. We never knew what was really on the shelf. And I think this is a great example of sort of where analytics leaves the computer screen. We had a situation where in Texas sales were down, and 7-Eleven just wanted to know why sales were declining in Texas. Well, there wasn't really a good obvious answer in the data. So my colleague and I just got in a car and started driving around store to store, trying to figure out what's going on. There was an increase in competition. Some of the bigger stores did have construction that slowed down sales, that's true.
Paul Boynton (00:56:17):
But this is so funny. Our biggest discovery and recommendation to 7-Eleven was to put beer and wine to go signs outside of the stores in Dallas. All the other competitors had signage on the outside that said, "Beer and wine." You can't put particular brands, that was against the law, but you could put beer and wine in big, 80 point font block letters on the outside. And 7-Eleven was the only convenience chain that wasn't doing that. So, that's the kind of recommendations that we brought back. There's so much going on that at some point you just have to go out into the market and validate for yourself. What's actually on the shelf? What does the store look like? Is it dark and scary because they haven't replaced the lights, or is it super clean? And they just opened a hotel next door and that's why they're doing so well.
Rob Collie (00:57:15):
It's funny. In a way we're coming from a world that was judged sort of strictly by human factors, like tribal wisdom and gut instinct and experience. And in a lot of ways we present data, a data driven technique as a superior method to that. You can't take it to an extreme, you have to integrate the two. And we talk about this with Michael Self, and he's been on a couple times. It's like this integration of the human knowledge with the data. There's no rules for how to do it right.
Paul Boynton (00:57:51):
No.
Rob Collie (00:57:52):
You can always have one overruling the other inappropriately. By the way, that story I told about the crew that I taught twice, their whole business, and the people in the room I was teaching didn't do this, but their whole business was shoppers. They would send people around to all of the stores in the country, various, and validate that the displays for various products were there, they were configured properly. If there had been a TV demo that was supposed to be running, was it actually running? Was it plugged in?
Paul Boynton (00:58:22):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (00:58:22):
Was it showing the right stuff? And most of what was being reported was ultimately all of that data that was being collected by hand. Now I'm sure a lot of that now you think that eventually we're be getting to the point where you still probably need a human to go in there, but you could just have them with the camera. And it's like doing some AI-driven image processing. I mean, you could certainly do that with the planogram. To see whether the planogram was accurate. You just walk down the beer isle with the camera and go back up to your car. By the time you're up to the car it's giving you a check mark or an X.
Paul Boynton (00:58:52):
Yeah, they're trying, they're trying to do these kind of visual checks, putting weight sensors and things like that. I mean-
Rob Collie (00:59:00):
Interesting.
Paul Boynton (00:59:01):
It's a lot to manage. Just move so much.
Rob Collie (00:59:05):
So even though I'm not naive about this industry anymore, I can still sort of bounce back to a naive perspective and I can tell two different stories about alcohol and data. On the one hand, I can say, "Look, alcohol has been here forever. It's a product that sells itself. It just isn't that complicated. People need their booze. And so it's just going to happen." I'm sure there's quite a bit of that personality in that industry. But then I could also say, "Oh my gosh, how perfect of a laboratory for data is this? It is a zero sum game being played against competitors with literally like at 7-Eleven, there are six doors to fridges that have beer behind them. That's it. It's not going to be seven tomorrow, it's six." And you know what? It's not just a zero sum game from the perspective of the various suppliers who are making beer, it's a zero sum game from the perspective of the retailer. There's nothing more optimization friendly then something that constrained.
Paul Boynton (01:00:24):
Well said. It is the perfect, perfect industry for business intelligence to come and just shake things up entirely. I see predictive modeling. So being able to actually predict the velocity, what we call a velocity, just how quickly do products come off the shelf?
Rob Collie (01:00:48):
Like in feet per second, or?
Paul Boynton (01:00:50):
It can be measured in actually a variety of ways. But mostly they call days of supply. How much do you put on the shelf to ensure there's always something on the shelf? And then, how do those requirements compete with the requirements of other products and their demand? So being able to forecast, how many times do you buy beer on a Tuesday at 3:00 PM? Not too often. So even in a given week-
Thomas LaRock (01:01:19):
Since the pandemic?
Paul Boynton (01:01:19):
Even in a given week there's fluctuations in demand. So getting that level of granularity to say, "Oh, I have exactly the amount of product I need on the shelf when I need it." Huge. Assortment, making sure that you don't have redundant packages, packages that do the exact same thing for the shopper. Price. Huge, huge.
Rob Collie (01:01:39):
Yeah, the old fashioned cave man, Rob Collie comes in now and says, "But look, once you get this stuff figured out, once you get it figured out, it's the same thing over and over again, every day, every place." Just know you-
Paul Boynton (01:01:53):
But didn't you hear about our Lime-A-Rita? That's a 24 ounce can that's coming out this spring. Oh no.
Rob Collie (01:02:01):
I did not.
Paul Boynton (01:02:01):
Well, you should get rid of that other 24 ounce can and put this in place.
Rob Collie (01:02:09):
I was literally setting up a suggestion, which is that if you're thinking about this, if you're listening to this and going, you're sort of thinking something along the lines of what I just said, it's not going to be like that. Here's another one that, listen, I love it when people steal things. So here's one that's, I'm presenting it as fodder for being stolen. There'd be no greater compliment than to have it stolen. I like to say the average has a population of zero.
Paul Boynton (01:02:31):
That's cool.
Rob Collie (01:02:32):
If you take all of the stores that have their own things going on and you average them all up, you're going to get a picture that painted for you. And you're going to assume, your next step is to assume that every store is basically doing about the same thing. They're all behaving the same way.
Paul Boynton (01:02:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:02:46):
So if you take everything that's happening at all of your stores and you blend it together into an overall average, you're going to get a picture. And the natural human thing to do is to assume that every one of those stores is basically behaving like that average. But in practice, you really go and look, most of the time you'll discover that every store is different. It's a bunch of different micro trends. And when you average them all up, you get a picture of a store that you go looking and there aren't actually any stores that look like that individually.
Paul Boynton (01:03:17):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:03:17):
And so being able to keep track of things, and this is another one of the places where a data-driven technique is just always going to be superior to just human instinct, you need to decompose it.
Paul Boynton (01:03:29):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (01:03:30):
You need to be aware of that. You were mentioning earlier different neighborhoods with different populations. As soon as you said something, I started thinking about, "Oh yeah. In the hipster neighborhood there's probably no middle class of beer, right?"
Paul Boynton (01:03:43):
Oh yeah [crosstalk 01:03:44].
Rob Collie (01:03:43):
It's only the high end and low end.
Paul Boynton (01:03:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:03:47):
Old Milwaukeen Pabst. And then the stuff that costs $5 a bottle.
Paul Boynton (01:03:52):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:03:53):
You know?
Paul Boynton (01:03:53):
Yeah, for sure.
Rob Collie (01:03:54):
You're not going to find Sierra Nevada Pale Ale in there, so over that, you know?
Paul Boynton (01:03:59):
And how do you get to that information without just talking to somebody or looking at the rest of the market? Or you have a market, great beer market. We had this situation in Colorado, when it went to full strength, alcohol, we did a bunch of canvassing. And there is an area doing very well with beer sales, one store not selling beer, what's going on? Why aren't we selling beer? If you were looking at the numbers on high, you'd be like, "We're losing money. We need to get our product in that store." You go and you talk to the owner, they're Muslim, they're not going to sell alcohol. So where does that data point come from? There's this holistic, granular approach that just requires so much data and so much data collection that it wasn't possible in Excel. It just wasn't possible. Now we actually have a mechanism to go after that kind of information. It's enormous. I mean, being able to get to that level of specificity at the long tail.
Rob Collie (01:05:01):
Even within a single small city, I've seen this. Different ends of that same city, people's preference for favorite cigarette or whatever is totally different than on the other end. And yet, again, the average tells you that every store sells three packs a day of this and four packs a day of that. Nope. No one sells three packs a day of that brand. There's one store that sells 11 a day.
Paul Boynton (01:05:25):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:05:26):
And the other sell none.
Paul Boynton (01:05:27):
Right. Exactly. Right.
Rob Collie (01:05:29):
It's just like, you've got to be careful.
Paul Boynton (01:05:32):
For sure. There's so many great sort of narratives in that vein. I think in the alcohol industry it has a kind of special place with those narratives. Because the product set is so diverse and also its geographic reach is so spread out that you can just, there's a never ending number of variables that can have meaningful impact on purchase behavior.
Rob Collie (01:05:54):
Yeah, everyone thinks that their industry [inaudible 01:05:58] is so special. I'm sure if we had someone on here talking about soap, they'd be telling us, "Oh no, soap is the most interesting and challenging, diverse-"
Thomas LaRock (01:06:08):
Soap has Tyler Durden.
Rob Collie (01:06:10):
Oh, it does, yes.
Thomas LaRock (01:06:12):
It has that going for it.
Paul Boynton (01:06:13):
So here's the other thing, what does a soap corporate event look like versus an alcohol corporate event?
Rob Collie (01:06:20):
I'm not talking about how much fun it would be.
Paul Boynton (01:06:28):
You know? You're right. And I'm not saying the alcohol industry is more or less opportunity just inherently than any other. I would argue that it is a strong candidate for focus at this point, because it's such an old industry that desperately needs it.
Rob Collie (01:06:47):
Well it's an industry. And so as soon as you tell me it's an industry, this has been the repeated lessons since I left Microsoft, is that, oh my gosh, the world has, and this is good news, the world so much left to do in terms of improvement.
Paul Boynton (01:07:01):
Yeah. And we're just talking about the retail perspective. That's not even including the actual manufacturing of the product and forecasting it, which could apply just across the board.
Thomas LaRock (01:07:13):
See, I would expect that the big, in dev, the real suppliers manufacturers, I would suspect they have a team of data analysts doing all that. I can't imagine they don't.
Paul Boynton (01:07:25):
You'd think. I mean, they're trying, I agree with you. They are trying, it's just hard. It's hard work. It's a difficult, it's challenging. It's just difficult work and there's not a whole lot of people in the world who just can do it is kind of the challenge.
Rob Collie (01:07:46):
What would you say would be sort of like, I don't know, I'll just pick a number, top three opportunities in the alcohol industry for applying data more effectively?
Paul Boynton (01:08:01):
Inventory management for distributors. So understanding inventory turns and how you're managing your inventory. The second one is incentives management. So actually this is pretty focused on distributors right now that I think about it. I just think that there's a lot of opportunity there.
Rob Collie (01:08:21):
Well, they're right in the middle, literally. So it wouldn't, it's not a surprise necessarily.
Paul Boynton (01:08:26):
Well, and they're also natural monopolies. So their competition is really against themselves. They're always trying to beat their best lap. The more efficiently they can get product from their warehouse to the store, the more money they'll they'll make. Because there's not another distributor in the area selling Bud Light. The Bud Light distributor is selling that Bud Light. So they're in a competition against themselves. So really nice self-contained there. So incentives are really interesting because different suppliers will provide different dollar amount and different criteria for meeting certain incentives for distributors. So, "Hey, we have a new product, Constellation Brands launches a new product." And if this distributor earns X number of placements, they get X number of money. And those are complicated. Those get really, really complicated. And in the hands of the driver, the person who actually goes out and delivers the product, they've got this big binder of a lot of cases, a binder of printouts that says, "Oh, if I sold this franchisee, these products, I'd make this much bonus to feed my family. Or I could say sell them this products, and for the month, eh."
Paul Boynton (01:09:41):
You see what I mean? That arithmetic gets complicated very quickly and there's a lot of money on the table. So inventory management, incentives, dollar management, and then the third one more broadly, I think assortment optimization is probably the dark matter of the universe in alcohol. It's just such a black box to try and understand how packages when they sit next to each other, how they affect one another. So if you're ever wondering why there's a billboard worth of Bud Light, the 18 pack, seven ounce aluminum twist off bottle, do we really need all of those? And this isn't to hate on Bud Light. I'm just saying, where do you put that product? Where is it best served? Is it best served everywhere or just in a few places? So wrapping our heads around that I think is going to do quite a bit, quite a bit. Those are the top three.
Rob Collie (01:10:38):
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like you to know that I did not give Paul advanced warning, but I was going to ask him for the top three opportunities. He's just a natural look at that, you know?
Thomas LaRock (01:10:49):
So if you'd like, though, I can help you. I know where to put the Bud Light.
Paul Boynton (01:10:57):
Let me guess, hmm.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:59):
Yeah, the Bud Light should go right next to the Bud Light Seltzer, and that should be in the garbage.
Paul Boynton (01:11:04):
And that should be in the garbage, oh my gosh. Shade, shade, throne.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:09):
Shade throne.
Paul Boynton (01:11:10):
Speaking of Bud Light, I don't know how much time we're dealing with here, I'm just having a really good time with y'all.
Rob Collie (01:11:15):
Same.
Paul Boynton (01:11:16):
Okay.
Rob Collie (01:11:17):
Time has no meaning.
Paul Boynton (01:11:18):
Time has no meaning.
Rob Collie (01:11:19):
In between these walls.
Paul Boynton (01:11:20):
What is it but a direction of entropy?
Rob Collie (01:11:22):
True. True. Totally. Yeah, I mean, that's how I think.
Paul Boynton (01:11:25):
Yeah, right. So we're in a strange place in the alcohol industry where it's the, what got us here a ain't going to get us there, back to that. There's a lot of people retiring from distributors and handing off their business to either the next generation of that family, if it's family owned, or there's a lot of consolidation going on in distributors. There's just a lot of transformation in the industry happening right now. The fact that imports are selling, are growing faster and are about to overtake in total dollars your domestic premiums. This is a really flex point. And we're also getting all of this data and business intelligence, so we're looking for constant new ideas. Huge preamble to set up a really strange idea. I pitched, I attempted, I should say, to pitch to the brand team at Constellations that they should get involved in eSports somehow. Because the age group of people who are playing games and watching eSports is now really the alcohol drinking age.
Paul Boynton (01:12:29):
And there's a really growing industry. I said that, and then not even a few months later, Bud Light came out with a Twitch channel and Miller came out with a Twitch channel. And the brand for Modelo is the fighting spirit, brewed with the fighting spirit. I mean, what a better matchup with fighting games or Counterstrike or something like that.
Rob Collie (01:12:51):
Because nothing improves those quick Twitch reaction times quite like that.
Paul Boynton (01:12:57):
Quite like a-
Rob Collie (01:12:58):
5% alcohol by volume beverage.
Paul Boynton (01:13:01):
You're right. It doesn't, it's not really good for the competitors.
Rob Collie (01:13:04):
Yeah.
Paul Boynton (01:13:04):
But that's an example of just something that you just wouldn't have thought of, three years ago that alcohol companies would be sponsoring early 20 year olds playing video games. Bud Light actually, I just read yesterday, they're releasing a console, a game console, that chills two beers.
Rob Collie (01:13:26):
What?
Paul Boynton (01:13:27):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:13:30):
My console is hot. I would use it to make coffee.
Paul Boynton (01:13:35):
Not this one, this one is cold.
Rob Collie (01:13:37):
You know, that makes as much sense as windows making a phone. When we have Connor on, we're going to talk about something called a Windows phone, and it's not what you expect.
Paul Boynton (01:13:48):
These are strange new ideas the industry's having to grapple with and there's just so much cool stuff out there for alcohol to do.
Rob Collie (01:13:59):
There's going to be a performance beer. You just know it. It's going to be a beer that has some sort of rainforest-
Paul Boynton (01:14:08):
Like a [crosstalk 01:14:08] drink?
Rob Collie (01:14:08):
Yeah. Kind of. But it's going to be like some sort of rainforest extract that supposedly offsets the effect of alcohol on reaction times. And there's no real studies that support this, except for the ones that were paid for by that particular manufacturer. And it'll be ...
Paul Boynton (01:14:25):
Yeah. Brewed with a Tiger's roar.
Rob Collie (01:14:27):
That's right. That's right.
Paul Boynton (01:14:28):
You have tigers scream at the-
Rob Collie (01:14:31):
No it's like tears of a hummingbird.
Paul Boynton (01:14:37):
Something just bizarre, I wouldn't put it past them. There actually is a coffee alcohol, right? Not coffee flavored beer, but coffee with alcohol in it. Shooters with [crosstalk 01:14:51]
Rob Collie (01:14:50):
Yeah. I actually got, I've ordered from Drizly one time, local beer delivery or whatever, one time. And so I get their newsletters and I swear, I got one the other day that said, "There's nothing quite like waking up to the taste of this coffee alcohol."
Thomas LaRock (01:15:08):
Yeah. No, nothing [crosstalk 01:15:09].
Rob Collie (01:15:08):
They just come right out and say, "This is your morning liquor."
Paul Boynton (01:15:13):
What's it called? Hair at the [inaudible 01:15:14]?
Rob Collie (01:15:15):
I have no idea. We call bad idea.
Paul Boynton (01:15:20):
Bad idea.
Rob Collie (01:15:21):
That will sell. It might sell great in the Rock. This is one of those products that we wish we could uninvent.
Paul Boynton (01:15:28):
Yeah. Oh the, what, the pet rock?
Rob Collie (01:15:31):
No. In the movie, The Rock, he talks about VX gas and says, to make it sound really bad he goes, "Listen, this is one of those things that we wish we could uninvent." It's that bad. It's that bad.
Paul Boynton (01:15:41):
Oh I thought Rock with Sean Connery.
Rob Collie (01:15:42):
It's not a good thing at all. We do not need tailored-
Paul Boynton (01:15:50):
This is a bad idea.
Rob Collie (01:15:50):
... alcohol drinks for the morning.
Paul Boynton (01:15:51):
Like Moon Shoes or the skip it.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:53):
We already have Baileys [crosstalk 01:15:56].
Rob Collie (01:15:55):
Yeah, that's true. A couple times I get upgraded, back when I used to fly, the early morning flight, it's leaving at 5:30 in the morning, it's yep. There's a lot of Baileys being dolled out on those flights.
Paul Boynton (01:16:10):
Excuse me. Champagne, please. I like my mornings cold.
Rob Collie (01:16:13):
Yeah, yeah. Well, if you need them cold. Just put them in the new Bud Light console.
Paul Boynton (01:16:20):
You've got to check that thing out. I don't even know how it works. But I mean, really guys? Okay, that's maybe a little too far, but it's one of those things where it seems really dumb, but if you saw it, you'd be, "That's pretty cool." I don't know if I need to buy one, but I might come over to see yours every now and then.
Rob Collie (01:16:41):
One of the ad campaigns for Bud Light Seltzer really struck me. This is a company with essentially infinite resources. They can execute anything, nothing's beyond them. They're going to do the absolute, most expensive, best research, whatever they can before they roll out an ad campaign. And there was this line in one of these ads, and actually it was repeated in multiple ads where this guy, and he actually says, it's slow so that you remember it. He says, "If you like Bud Light, you'll like Bud Light Seltzer. If you don't like Bud Light, you'll love Bud Light Seltzer." It's delivered almost like a joke. But these words were very, very, very carefully considered.
Paul Boynton (01:17:28):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:17:28):
They're aware of you're polarized. You don't have a middle of the road opinion about Bud Light. You're either in or you're out. And they say something that on the surface just sounds patently ridiculous.
Paul Boynton (01:17:43):
Right. That no matter what, you're on the positive side of this.
Rob Collie (01:17:46):
In fact, it is patently ridiculous, right?
Paul Boynton (01:17:49):
Right.
Rob Collie (01:17:49):
And yet, they know that's going to be effective.
Paul Boynton (01:17:56):
Man, yeah, they really can do whatever they want.
Rob Collie (01:17:58):
Yeah, that's not an accident.
Paul Boynton (01:17:59):
Oftentimes do. And I oftentimes do.
Rob Collie (01:18:04):
And I struggle with this, because we're a smart company marketing a smart service. So there's a tendency to try to explain to people, tell them the truth. Like here's why it's better and all that kind of stuff. And then you see something like that. And you're like, "What?" Maybe we should be doing something like, "If you like data, you'll love P3 or you'll like P3. If you don't like data, you'll love P3." Should we be that dumb? Should we just say something like that?
Paul Boynton (01:18:33):
This is, ah gosh, sometimes simple is better. This reminds me something of the back and forth about pie charts, this whole hate. There's a hate defense fest against pie charts.
Rob Collie (01:18:49):
Yeah.
Paul Boynton (01:18:50):
And Bergs and I, another awesome P3 consultant, Bergs. We were talking and we have a client who was over the moon with a pie chart and a slicer on a page. I mean, we showed it as a draft of what's possible. They looked at it, thought it was the finished product and said, "This is," we're good. This is amazing. And that led to the phrase, "Just give a pie chart." You don't need to overthink it. It's simple, it works. You just give them a pie chart.
Rob Collie (01:19:24):
Yeah. But then the chart police come in and they say, "But it's proven, the studies have shown that human are unable to appropriately," you got to say it in the Captain Kirk voice, "unable to appropriately compare the sizes wedges in a circle." So they say, bar chart or column chart instead. And yeah, I mean, a lot of pie charts do get really ridiculous. If you've got 30 slices in a pie chart, you're not conveying any information.
Thomas LaRock (01:19:51):
We're going to head down a rabbit hole and we're going to spend like three hours.
Rob Collie (01:19:55):
We're going to fight, is what we're going to do.
Paul Boynton (01:19:57):
Oh, I love this.
Rob Collie (01:19:57):
Yeah, let's get after it.
Thomas LaRock (01:19:59):
It's like an anchor man.
Rob Collie (01:20:01):
Now it's real. Now we're going to get-
Thomas LaRock (01:20:03):
Yeah. All the groups are just going to come out from the alley.
Rob Collie (01:20:06):
It's when we all stop being polite, start getting real, like on MTV's real world. Okay. So in college, I'm pretty sure that we were, we sort of had an internal trigonometry that allowed us to perfectly divide a pizza into three arcs.
Thomas LaRock (01:20:21):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:20:22):
No one was going to get cheated. I had a strong set of opinions about this stuff, but basically my stance is this, that the audience is kind of in a way they're almost always right.
Paul Boynton (01:20:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:20:31):
If you got an audience that says, "Listen, I want an oil gauge type of visual." They're telling you what they want. You might as well get them to engage with it, give them what they want.
Paul Boynton (01:20:40):
Sure.
Rob Collie (01:20:40):
And yes, the research on all these other sorts of things is valid. There is real science behind it and I'm not in the science denying camp.
Paul Boynton (01:20:49):
Oh good. I'm glad you feel that the empirical research is, yeah.
Rob Collie (01:20:54):
It's just that there's something that gets a little out of control when people sort of turn this sort of toughty purism into a defining character trait of who they are.
Paul Boynton (01:21:06):
Oh yeah. That's definitely a lie, bridge too far.
Rob Collie (01:21:10):
And a lot of people do this and it's like, "Okay, the world's not going to fall over if we use the wrong visual here, if everybody still likes it and they can make sense of it."
Paul Boynton (01:21:21):
Yeah, talking about grades in art class.
Rob Collie (01:21:24):
Well, I mean, there's psychology and physiology behind it. It's more legitimate than, it's more objective than the subjective art.
Paul Boynton (01:21:34):
Well, yeah but there's good line work. There's good color. I mean, there's some general ideas there, but ultimately the audience matters, you know.
Rob Collie (01:21:40):
I mean people at MVP summits, they used to walk around, some of them with badges, sewed on patches on their backpacks, that was a pie chart with a line through it, no pie charts. It was important enough to-
Paul Boynton (01:21:54):
Wow.
Rob Collie (01:21:54):
To essentially they bumper sticker it.
Paul Boynton (01:21:56):
Wow, it was an identity.
Rob Collie (01:21:58):
Yeah. I'm like, "Well, now you're in a weird spot that doesn't have any value. Don't do that."
Paul Boynton (01:22:06):
I'm a no pie chart person. No, no pie charts.
Rob Collie (01:22:11):
Yeah. Also another really good example of this is never do a dark background.
Paul Boynton (01:22:16):
Oh, we've-
Rob Collie (01:22:17):
Dashboard.
Paul Boynton (01:22:17):
We've gone back and forth about this. We've gone back and forth.
Rob Collie (01:22:19):
I'm fine. The science indicates it's maybe, I'll be generous, and let's say it's 60/40 that white background dashboards are more readable as opposed to dark background. But if the dark background dashboard is three times as likely to be engaged with, there's still more throughput through my dark dashboard funnel than the other person's funnel.
Paul Boynton (01:22:43):
They're easier to read is supposed to translate to usability. That's what gets lost sometimes is that, "Okay, great. You've measured the degrees of contrast." But ultimately that comes down to how many calories are people spending in their brain to think about your report?
Rob Collie (01:23:00):
But then the whispering voice comes in and says, "But coolness matters."
Paul Boynton (01:23:05):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (01:23:06):
"It just does," you know?
Paul Boynton (01:23:07):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:23:08):
And every application on the planet has now added a dark mode.
Paul Boynton (01:23:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:23:12):
And people are rabbit about this, might as well. We actually have one person we worked with, another consulting firm that said to me, and this person only consults with the big league, only ever is talking to C-suite executives and some of the largest organizations in the world. And we were talking about this and laughing and he goes, "Yeah, listen, if you're not using dark dashboards to communicate with these people, you're just missing it. It's free money, just free money." And he's right. It's cool.
Paul Boynton (01:23:44):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:23:45):
You see a movie and they're looking at some sort of dashboard display. It's always going to be a dark dashboard on a movie.
Paul Boynton (01:23:50):
Dark dashboard on a movie, usually some kind of color. And sometimes images are really, really helpful for the background to have a kind of faint sort of suggestion of an image. So I'm definitely not anti-color on backgrounds. I think from a developer standpoint you get a lot more color option when you just have a lighter background. But hey, your audience matters. If the brand guidelines say. "All dashboards have this logo scheme or color background." Well, that's what you're going to do because those are the brand guidelines. And you just want to be consistent I think more than anything else, right? You just want to be consistent. You don't want to be flip flopping between dark and light backgrounds and the same report. You don't want to have a suite of reports that have dark backgrounds in one place and light backgrounds in other place. You make up the rules as you go. But there are some general principles like consistency and contrast and things like that. So no, I'm not anti-color background.
Rob Collie (01:24:50):
Oh I'm glad to hear that.
Paul Boynton (01:24:54):
I have opinions. I'm going to have opinions.
Rob Collie (01:24:54):
I bet you do. I bet you do.
Paul Boynton (01:24:56):
And I tattoo them to my back.
Rob Collie (01:24:59):
In places that no one sees.
Paul Boynton (01:25:01):
Right, right. Yeah. Like I have a tattoo, it's just a filled in rectangle with a line through it. Like, no dark background.
Rob Collie (01:25:09):
No bevels.
Paul Boynton (01:25:12):
I am all about drop shadow though. I do love drop shadow.
Rob Collie (01:25:15):
Oh, you goosh. Are you 12 years old?
Paul Boynton (01:25:24):
I love it, I do love it.
Rob Collie (01:25:25):
Yeah. Well, Paul, this has been a blast. We haven't even talked about everything we planned to talk about.
Thomas LaRock (01:25:31):
We're going to have you back on.
Paul Boynton (01:25:32):
I love that.
Rob Collie (01:25:33):
It's terrible.
Paul Boynton (01:25:34):
Talk about woofing and interceptive shipments and-
Rob Collie (01:25:37):
Woofing and-
Thomas LaRock (01:25:40):
And pie charts.
Rob Collie (01:25:41):
And pie charts. We'll definitely talk about some pie charts.
Paul Boynton (01:25:43):
More about pie charts later after this break,
Rob Collie (01:25:46):
We're going to get Luke to tell some of his liquor industry tales. He's got a couple up his sleeve from back in the college days. I was going to put you on the spot at some point, Luke, but we just, we ran out of time, you know?
Paul Boynton (01:25:57):
I just really enjoyed the conversation. I really am doing something that I love, I'll just say that my mom is famous for. She says, "I wish two things for my children. Number one, I pray for them in profession, a career that brings them joy and fulfillment." And I have that, and I definitely have that, and I'm not just pandering. I really do experience joy and fulfillment in this role. And the second thing is that she prays for us to have the love of our lives. And it's carefully ordered there that first comes the joy fulfillment from a professional career, then comes the love of your life. So definitely, I feel like I've checked the box on the first one and look forward to a long stay.
Thomas LaRock (01:26:44):
You left the second one out. You checked the first check box.
Paul Boynton (01:26:47):
Oh yeah.
Rob Collie (01:26:48):
She's going to listen to this maybe.
Paul Boynton (01:26:50):
She is. She is.
Rob Collie (01:26:52):
You better not leave that check box unchecked. Come on.
Paul Boynton (01:26:55):
Liz, I love you.
Rob Collie (01:26:58):
There you go.
Paul Boynton (01:26:58):
There you go.
Rob Collie (01:26:58):
There you go.
Paul Boynton (01:27:00):
Rob, not so much. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You're great. You're great. Thank you.
Thomas LaRock (01:27:07):
Sadly your boss is kind of a jerk though.
Rob Collie (01:27:12):
I'm mostly harmless.
Thomas LaRock (01:27:13):
Mostly harmless.
Announcer (01:27:14):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email Luke P, L-U-K-E-P @powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
It's a not so technical discussion with tech guru and Microsoft Cloud Solutions Architect Hope Foley! We talk a lot about Microsoft, and a little about Star Wars.
Episode Timeline:
- 1:25 - Meeting Hope
- 4:15 - The Darth Vader connection
- 6:45 - Three Letter acronyms and Hope's field work in the Education vertical
- 12:50 - The Satya Era at Microsoft, how his keynotes are vastly different than other CEO's, and the culture at Microsoft
- 17:55 - Rob's tenure at Microsoft wasn't all unicorns and rainbows, and he gives some details
- 36:15 - How does Google rank as a cloud solution versus Azure or AWS or anything else?
- 39:05 - The Innovator's Dilemma, data privacy and the sinister naming of Google's phone
- 46:50 - More discussion on the Education space leads to a nifty Dax puzzle. And you will be entering...The Monologue Zone
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00):
Welcome to Raw Data, Episode 9, if you can believe it. Already up to our ninth episode. Today we welcome Hope Foley, a Cloud Solutions Architect at Microsoft. What is a cloud solutions architect, or CSA for short? Well, technically it's part of the sales organization at Microsoft, and technically is a good word because it is the technical component of the sales team. In other words, Hope is the tech guru for many, many, many different customers. In an average day, she juggles many different problems, many different even domains, not to mention the entire cloud stack from Microsoft. She's very much in the trenches every day. Obviously, we talk a lot about Microsoft, but we don't get too technical, so hopefully you enjoy this one. All right, let's get after it.
Announcer (01:01):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention, please?
Announcer (01:06):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (01:24):
Welcome to the show, Hope Foley. How are you doing today?
Hope Foley (01:27):
I'm good. I'm good. How are you?
Rob Collie (01:29):
Oh, we're doing great. There's really nothing going on in the world right now. Nothing to distract us at all.
Hope Foley (01:36):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:36):
I mean, it'll be so comforting just to talk about tech for a little while, won't it?
Hope Foley (01:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:39):
Yeah.
Hope Foley (01:41):
I have no idea what's going on. Yeah. I've actually been staying off social media a little bit to save my sanity some, so yeah.
Rob Collie (01:50):
Yeah. I think that's a solid plan. I can't find fault with that. Well, first of all, just tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do these days? What's your background? Things like that, so people can get to know you just a little bit.
Hope Foley (02:03):
Yeah. My name is Hope Foley. Yeah, I've been at Microsoft now. I just had my five year anniversary.
Rob Collie (02:11):
Oh, congratulations.
Hope Foley (02:11):
So, yeah. I don't know what milestone that is as far as Microsoftee's go, but yeah, I made it. Stock, that's always nice. Yeah. I've been at Microsoft for five years, focus on data and AI. I'm a cloud solution architect now. They did a rename, rebranding, like they like to do. I used to be a TSP, Technical Pre-sales I always joke I'm the nerd they take to meetings to keep the sales folks honest. Prior to that, I was at Blue Granite focused on BI. Then prior to that, I was a DBA Consultant for seven years.
Rob Collie (02:47):
You know Tom?
Hope Foley (02:48):
Of course. Yeah.
Rob Collie (02:48):
The two of you have crossed paths multiple times. You were both part of that primordial SQL Twitter community that I first joined in like 2009, and Tom and I talked about on our first podcast.
Thomas LaRock (03:01):
I think the last time I saw Hope, we were at the Detroit airport after a red eye from PASS Summit.
Hope Foley (03:11):
From PASS summit, possibly. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (03:13):
I think that was five years ago and you then just were just about to join Microsoft.
Hope Foley (03:18):
Yeah. That was one of my last summits for a little while, but then they opened the doors back up to us. Yeah. I remember one of my first SQL Saturdays was Nashville. You were there. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (03:28):
Yes.
Hope Foley (03:28):
The speaker dinner was at Kevin Klein's house.
Thomas LaRock (03:31):
Yep. Yeah, Rob, that community that you talked about, it's interesting how many paths have crossed over the years.
Rob Collie (03:42):
Yeah, completely. Five years ago is when I moved to Indy. About the time Hope was joining Microsoft is the time I was moving here. Chris Finland, on a previous podcast, is the person who introduced us, introduced Hope and I, so that's kind of cool. The web, it's just, the world is so small. This community, it's huge, but it's also close knit.
Hope Foley (04:04):
Yeah. I always loved... I was always appreciative of, yeah, PASS got me out there and speaking, and I've met tons of people, friends all over the world from doing those events and everything.
Rob Collie (04:16):
In your Twitter profile, are you still wearing a Vader mask?
Hope Foley (04:20):
I am, yeah. I keep that one. I don't know why. There was...
Rob Collie (04:25):
Because it's awesome!
Hope Foley (04:26):
It is awesome. Yeah. My big mask is over there. I collect Darth Vader things. Like I said, I'm not breaking any stereotypes here today, but yeah. What are you going to do? So, yeah.
Thomas LaRock (04:38):
Why Darth Vader?
Hope Foley (04:40):
It started as a joke back when I was at PTI. I used to manage a team and we were going into a meeting where I was going to go up head to head, and fight for the team to get whatever they wanted. I was like, "I need you to play the Imperial March. You be the guy carrying the boom box in my entourage, playing the Imperial March as I walk into this meeting," and it grew from there. I started collecting Darth Vader things and I was always more of a Star Wars kind of a gal growing up. I have an office full of Darth Vader things. The Twitter thing was, he was like, "Oh, your follower count's going to just go through the roof if you change your Twitter picture." Didn't exactly, but it made me a giggle.
Rob Collie (05:26):
I think it's a keeper. I think you got to stick with that. I don't think most people understand or believe that it's actually you under the mask.
Hope Foley (05:34):
It totally is. Yeah. They surprised me with a mask one day and I'm like, "Yeah. Okay. I'm going to roll with it." It was fun. Who doesn't love Darth Vader? Yeah.
Rob Collie (05:44):
To show you how nerdy it gets in my family, my father, for a number of years would come home every day and put the change from his pocket in a jar, and eventually went and turned it in. It was hundreds and hundreds of dollars at that point. He could buy the full length, full detail Vader outfit. I mean, it is super hyper realistic. This is a man. This is my dad. He has the realistic lightsaber and everything. You just wouldn't expect that from the previous generation, would you?
Hope Foley (06:18):
Yeah, I won't do any spoilers, but there were some things that happened in some of the recent ones, people being killed, that wrecked me way more than I imagined they would. I'm not going to... I'm not naming any names, but there was a time where I was completely wrecked. I was like, "They can't do it. They can't do this."
Rob Collie (06:36):
Well, whatever you do, don't tell me who Luke's Skywalker's father is. I haven't gotten to that part yet.
Hope Foley (06:44):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (06:45):
Okay. CSA. If you work at Microsoft in the field in particular, you have to have a three letter acronym as your title. That's just the rule. If you work in Redmond, you can have two letters in your acronym, but out in the field, you got to have three. That's how we distinguish between the two camps. Yes?
Hope Foley (07:03):
Possibly. I never noticed that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (07:06):
It's the extra letter. Yeah.
Hope Foley (07:08):
Yeah. I felt very Microsofty one day. I was like, I think I just set a full sentence in that three letter acronyms. Yeah. That's very Microsoft. That's next level Microsofty.
Rob Collie (07:19):
Yeah. That's when the music plays and the confetti falls from the ceiling, and they come in and they tell you the real secrets of the origins of Microsoft.
Hope Foley (07:27):
Yeah. They play the Bill Gates dancing video. Yeah.
Rob Collie (07:30):
That's right. Yeah. Cloud Solutions Architect?
Hope Foley (07:33):
Cloud Solutions Architect. Yep.
Rob Collie (07:35):
All right. Microsoft has also recently, semi-recently anyway, reorganized around industries in the field. You're focused primarily now on the education vertical. Is that true?
Hope Foley (07:49):
I am. Yep. I've been focused... yeah, prior to that, I was in commercial, but now I focus on education, so yeah. It's been interesting and fun.
Rob Collie (07:59):
From a perspective of Microsoft's customers, what kind of organizations are you responsible for?
Hope Foley (08:05):
I talk to a lot of universities, definitely a lot of universities, what they call "academic med centers". If the hospital is tied to a university, they get the education. They get the discounting potentially on their software and such. Academic med centers, higher education, also K12, and then some random museums and such thrown in.
Rob Collie (08:28):
Ooh, interesting. Museums. That's kind of cool. A friend of ours and future podcast guest is running a startup now. It's an internet of things, monitoring company for museums, for preservation, for conservation purposes, monitor humidity, light, things like that.
Hope Foley (08:47):
Oh, yeah, cool.
Rob Collie (08:47):
We should connect you.
Hope Foley (08:48):
Oh, yeah. Your people will talk to my people.
Rob Collie (08:52):
Which is like, it's going to be me talking to you. We can call it people. Also, that was really interesting, the academic med centers. You get some stealth healthcare exposure still.
Hope Foley (09:06):
I was surprised when I moved over to education. I was like, oh these... They have their different acronyms, too. I had to learn some new acronyms, but yeah, I was getting back into healthcare a lot with these academic med centers, or I would be talking to... I remember I was a young eager beaver on a new team, ready to impress the new boss. They were like, "We would you to go to the AIRs conference." I was like, "What is that?" It's Academic Institution Research. I was like, oh gosh, I need a jacket with patches on the sleeves or something?
Hope Foley (09:40):
I don't know. I looked it up. They were the bean counters. They were the accounting type folks that run the business of a university. I was like, "Oh, I know those guys." I talked a lot of Power BI at that conference, but I was like, "Oh, it sounds fancy." I figure somebody somewhere got upset at the research guys, looking down their nose at the people in the accounting parts of the university, so they came up with a fancy title. My theory totally, and it may be not valid, but that's my theory.
Rob Collie (10:09):
It's not falsifiable, so we just know that it's just true until otherwise right? It reminds me of my experience going to my first FPNA conference, financial planning and analysis. I'm like, what is that? The person who asked me to go to the conference, I said, "Okay, fine, but you're going to have to help me build the demos, because I don't know what FPNA is." By the time we were done building demos together, I stood back and looked at them, and I said, I get, "That's it?" He goes, "Yeah." I'm like, "I already had these demos. This is just data. This is the BI mission." It's crazy that it's got this... It's neat to hear you tell that story. There's so many different names, but when you really get down to it, just data.
Hope Foley (10:49):
Yeah. I'm always a little bit, probably undiagnosed ADD talking to different types of people. I talk to the Smithsonian and those hard-core research guys measuring tree widths out in the wilderness. Some days it's like, ah, I'm just talking to the regular folks trying to make sense of data. I get to talk to a lot of different kind of folks, so it's fun and interesting.
Rob Collie (11:14):
You said Undiagnosed ADD. I don't know if it's undiagnosed.
Hope Foley (11:20):
Yeah. Maybe we can diagnose.
Rob Collie (11:21):
Do we really need a formal write-up? I'm assuming that this means lots and lots, and lots of Azure.
Hope Foley (11:28):
Definitely. It seems like they were a little slow. I don't know. Healthcare was a little slow, scared to move to Azure, but then it seems like COVID kicked... "Oh, we got to be in the cloud right now. We were on the fence before, but now we're totally on board. We got to do this now."
Rob Collie (11:48):
Hurry up and wait, and then hurry.
Hope Foley (11:51):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (11:51):
I want to make sure I have your title correct. Is it Cloud Solution Architect or Cloud Solutions Architect?
Hope Foley (11:58):
I would say I do more than one, so yeah, solutions.
Thomas LaRock (12:03):
There's more than one cloud solution?
Hope Foley (12:04):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (12:05):
Okay, but wouldn't your cloud solution just always be Azure?
Hope Foley (12:10):
Well, yeah. I mean, it's a large world of Azure out there, so yeah. Don't label me, man. I don't know, but I totally help with more than just one solution yeah, so I'm going with solutions.
Thomas LaRock (12:27):
Solutions. Okay. I could deal with that. Cloud Solutions Architect. How often is your cloud solution, say, Google?
Hope Foley (12:36):
Not very often, unless it's doing internet searches for other things I guess.
Thomas LaRock (12:42):
That's fair because that's what I find is most people aren't using Google clouds for anything either.
Hope Foley (12:46):
No.
Thomas LaRock (12:46):
It's either Azure or AWS. I wanted to drill into... I was trying to figure out how long you've been at Microsoft. Was Satya in charge already when you got there?
Hope Foley (12:56):
He was. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (12:57):
Okay.
Hope Foley (12:57):
I want to say he was maybe a year, year and a half-ish in role.
Thomas LaRock (13:01):
I wanted to ask you about the transformation that you've seen even in those five years, because it was still a different company when he took over, but he was really the Azure guy, I thought. He was really driving a lot of that. Talk to me about what Azure has done for Microsoft in the past five years.
Hope Foley (13:20):
Yeah. I mean they definitely shifted focus. It was all Azure, Azure, Azure. Well, not all the way. SQL definitely still had a lot of love. I was actually called the Data Platform Architect back then, so if the SQL questions came up, they would usually come my way. I feel like Microsoft has paid my bills for longer than I've even been at Microsoft. I was still consulting in Microsoft Technologies, so I've paid a lot of attention over the years, definitely, to the direction they're going. Yeah, I mean the Satya years, it was still him trying to make his point, but it's always been Azure focused since I've been on. I was actually a little surprised they hired me because I had very little Azure experience.
Hope Foley (14:07):
I was a Data Platform MVP back then, but I wasn't necessarily very Azure savvy. I'm glad they did. I really love the way he's changed the culture. I still saw some things like a little bit of that stack rankingness that used to go on, that I used to hear a lot about. That's been ripped out, but those kind of things linger with the people that are involved. I'm totally on board Kool-Aid wise. I just love hearing him speak. He was talking about the learn-it-all mentality. We're not know-it-alls, and if you want to be cool, we might not be the guys for you, but we may help others look cool. I really dig his approach and his leadership has been really, really good. I am completely biased, of course.
Thomas LaRock (15:00):
For me, Satya, I think might be one of the best CEOs out there delivering keynotes today. The reason I say that is, so I attend a lot of different events in my role, back in the before times, when you used to go to events.
Hope Foley (15:18):
I miss that.
Thomas LaRock (15:19):
Most CEOs spend a portion of their time on stage giving free advertising to a competitor. They go out of their way to make a disparaging comment about a competing product or service or company. Larry Ellison, big example of that. So does Andy Jassy for AWS, because he'll say things about Larry and Oracle, and so on and so forth, but Satya, in his keynotes, you never hear him ever reference another company or product or service. He doesn't make broad misleading statements, like you hear. He doesn't say, "We're the only company that offers this. Nobody else does even have it."
Thomas LaRock (16:00):
You don't really have to do a lot of fact checking for Satya and his message is so positive. It's always an effort to be positive, and forward-looking and future-thinking. I could listen to that content all day, and I think it starts with him and it trickles down from there. That's my feeling of this new... when people talk about the new Microsoft, that's what I see as an outsider. I believe it trickles and the people that are there now embody all of that as well.
Hope Foley (16:32):
Yeah. I totally agree. But I almost feel like he's not gamifying being a good company. They just recently announced... like a lot of companies, they talk and do a lot of lip service to diversity and things, and we just published our numbers. Or even the COVID dates of, "Oh, we're not going back until X," and then you'd see the other guys that are, "Oh, well, we're not going back until this." I'm really glad that they're starting to make being just good humans, almost at a corporate level, a thing that is gaining traction.
Hope Foley (17:09):
I think Microsoft definitely has a good part of that with Satya's leadership, that they keep announcing really good incentives and directions of saving the planet, and all of this stuff. I'm definitely biased. They pay my bills, but all of that feels really good to be in a company that's making... I forget what they call it. Have you guys seen that? There's a new list of corporates, goodhearted companies, one of those and we were number one, so yeah.
Rob Collie (17:42):
Social consciousness or citizen corporations.
Hope Foley (17:46):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (17:46):
Something like that.
Hope Foley (17:48):
Something like that, yeah, some list, but we were number one. But those data people make their lists, too, so yeah.
Rob Collie (17:55):
Well, I mean, that's definitely a contrast to some of the company when I used to work there, especially in the late ‘90s, early 2000s. I mean, I remember us sitting around as employees, during the antitrust trial, as we saw how we were behaving, our executives were behaving in that antitrust trial, we had that moment like, "Are we the bad guys? I think we're the bad guys." We actually reached the point where we were rooting against ourselves. We were rooting to be broken up. We were just like, yeah, we deserve it. Plus, we think the office division will outperform if we split up and we're in the office division, so bring it on.
Hope Foley (18:30):
Yeah. They break up the ship, we'll be fine. We'll swing.
Rob Collie (18:33):
Yeah, we'll be fine.
Hope Foley (18:34):
We'll swim. Yeah.
Rob Collie (18:36):
The Windows org in particular back in those days was just savage. They were so mean to each other. That was how they managed, was just kick down, kick down, kick down. It was gross. You mentioned stack rank. A lot of listeners won't know what that means. Some obviously will, but not everyone. Oh, yeah. I used to be, as a middle manager at Microsoft, for a while I was the instrument of application of the stack rank. If we had gotten rid of stack rank back in those days, I would've decided to continue to be a manager at Microsoft, but my last few years at Microsoft, I just swore it all off. I said, I can't do this anymore.
Rob Collie (19:22):
I can't be the one applying this stack ranking thing, so I'm just going to go be an individual contributor and take on big projects, but that turned out to not be very satisfying for me, making that switch to IC because now I wasn't as involved in the bigger decisions as I wanted to be. It was just a really... Okay, stack ranking. This is what it is. Every six months was review time, and if you had five people on your team, you had to rank those five people from one to end. Then the worst part was, is that then you get together with the other managers at your level, in this awful Battle Royale meeting called the stack rank meeting. Now you've got 30 people.
Rob Collie (20:06):
There's six managers, five direct reports. The direct reports of course are not in this meeting. We literally put 30 sticky notes on the table with names on them and argue for essentially days on end about how to rearrange them in order from best to worst. Then the people near the bottom get absolutely nothing in terms of financial bonus, raise, stock, all that stuff. Now, if you happen to have built a good team, if you happen to have been a management culture that drew... that people just wanted to work for you, you would end up just absolutely just destroying people that were doing good jobs.
Rob Collie (20:52):
There was no absolute scale of good performance. I would coach people on how to get better year over year, and they would. They would go and they would improve. They would improve sometimes very significantly, but everyone else was under the same pressure and they would also improve significantly. A year later, I would be telling the same person, "Yeah, sorry. You made a lot of progress, but it's not going to mean anything." It was just so sickening. It was just such a sickening thing to do. Four or five years of that was enough.
Hope Foley (21:21):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (21:23):
I'm really glad to hear that that's... I mean, I understand why they did it. How do you trust that everyone is holding a high bar if everyone can set the bar themselves, every manager? Well, that's a different kind of problem, but this system was set up... The original system was set up to make the difficulty, the awfulness happen at exactly my level, with exactly the people that I cared about. It's like, okay, I'll let someone else deal with that. I'm opting out.
Hope Foley (21:50):
Yeah. That would be heart breaking. Yeah, I used to manage a team and I would go mama bear on them. It's like picking your... "Okay, well, two of my children have to..." No way.
Rob Collie (22:03):
Yeah, Twice a year, you'd be forced to essentially do a heel turn and completely shock them, and tell them, "I've cared about you. I've done all these things and we've worked together. I've encouraged you, but today, today I have to tell you that you weren't good enough."
Hope Foley (22:23):
Kick you off the island. Yeah, that stinks. I'm glad that that is no more. I mean, Microsoft is such a big animal. Sometimes it takes a little while for all of that to weed out.
Rob Collie (22:36):
Oh, big time. Big time. The other thing that I've noticed about the Satya regime is Tom mentioned that he doesn't talk about competitors during keynotes. Now, Tom, did you mean he doesn't say bad things, or just that he doesn't say anything about them during keynotes?
Thomas LaRock (22:52):
I am specifically referring to Ignite. I saw him do a couple for Build Online. You would expect him to mention AWS and he doesn't mention AWS, and he doesn't mention any product from AWS. He just focuses and says, "This is what we're building. This is why, and this is what we believe in here." He lets the demo and the tech, and the user stories speak for themself. He doesn't take any time from that keynote to call out a competing product or service. None that I can remember.
Hope Foley (23:27):
Yeah. Now that I think about it, I never really thought of it that way, but yeah. I don't think I've ever... yeah.
Thomas LaRock (23:32):
If you go to Reinvent, if you watch the Reinvent keynote at the end of the month, the three week Reinvent thing that they're trying to pull off, whatever, it's silly. But if you listen to Andy Jassy... I've actually written blog posts because I was so mad. I did a fact check, and I've done it twice now, for Andy Jassy keynotes, because when he gets on stage and he says, "We have 14 database services available and nobody else has more than half of that," I'm like, excuse me. I look at the list that he has and I go, okay, well, if you're going to have that as a list, if that's your set, if I go to Azure, I can count that right now, they offer eight, and eight is more than half of 14.
Thomas LaRock (24:14):
I've done these fact checks for Jassy. He just constantly does that, that little slide that in. It's not quite a lie, but it's really not true. Or it was true 18 months ago and you haven't updated your talking points, and it frustrates me because it's not accurate. The converse of that, obviously, for me, is Satya, who doesn't do that. He doesn't sit there and say, "Hey, look, we're better. We have more regions," or something like that. He just doesn't do that. Again, he focuses on the services, the customer experience and why they believe that what they're building is going to make for a better tomorrow. It's such a positive message that he sends out.
Hope Foley (25:00):
Just don't have AI in the drinking game of the keynotes.
Thomas LaRock (25:04):
Oh, my god, If I have to hear him say Edge-
Hope Foley (25:06):
Edge.
Thomas LaRock (25:07):
... yeah, "I'm living on the Edge." Edge, Edge, Edge, Edge, Edge.
Hope Foley (25:10):
Is Edge the new buzzword? Is it overtaking AI?
Thomas LaRock (25:16):
Edge, Edge...
Hope Foley (25:16):
Edge.
Thomas LaRock (25:16):
And SQL. If you're going to have SQL on the Edge, everything's on the Edge-
Hope Foley (25:19):
We're all on Edge.
Thomas LaRock (25:20):
... that
Rob Collie (25:21):
Now we have the Aerosmith song in our head. "It's SQL on the Edge."
Hope Foley (25:27):
Yeah. No.
Rob Collie (25:29):
You can auto tune that, right, Luke? Make that sound better?
Hope Foley (25:32):
Yeah, make him sound like Cher or something. Yeah.
Rob Collie (25:35):
I'm asking a lot of software, even modern software that was powered by AI.
Hope Foley (25:41):
Yes. No.
Rob Collie (25:42):
Cha-ching.
Hope Foley (25:45):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (25:46):
Along the same line, one of the things I've been noticing, again, during the Satya regime, is the willingness and the acceptance of reality. Even though he might not talk about these competitors and keynotes, the acceptance that customers are going to have competitive tools. They're going to have adopted... even for historical reasons. They might not have even gone out of their way in any way to choose something over the Microsoft offering, but just because of the way that they grew up, they ended up with "best of breed" systems, which is just a euphemism for, "We were disorganized. We grew up in chaos, and so we have a hodgepodge of systems," but that's just reality everywhere right?
Rob Collie (26:29):
Under the Bill and Steve regime, for example, Linux wasn't even tolerated as something that was allowed to exist. The only way that those two could imagine a path forward, at least for a while there... I'm sure that they wised up eventually, but for a while there, all their behavior indicated that the only acceptable outcome was the extermination of Linux, the extermination of open source. It's like, okay. It's like, that hope is not a strategy thing. Oh, I used your name. Hope is a good strategy thinker, but hope is not a strategy. These are true statements.
Hope Foley (27:07):
We had to get to the hope puns eventually, right?
Rob Collie (27:08):
We did. People who follow you on social media, they don't know that you have sisters named Faith Foley, Joy Foley and Grace Foley, do they?
Hope Foley (27:20):
I liked the Wanda you came up with, Wanda Foley. Yeah.
Rob Collie (27:24):
Oh, that's right! I did have a fourth one, Wanda Foley. I was wondering what the fourth one was. Yeah, and the reason people don't know this about you is because it's not true-
Hope Foley (27:35):
It's totally not true.
Rob Collie (27:36):
... but it should be. It would be a lot cooler if it was.
Hope Foley (27:40):
Oh, yeah. I'd have a lot more reasons to be mad at Mom if she did do that. Yeah. No.
Rob Collie (27:47):
Wanda Foley. Aw, man. I'm so glad you remembered that. I couldn't come up with that.
Hope Foley (27:49):
Yeah. I stumbled into... Yeah, I married into that one, too. Yeah, I didn't...
Rob Collie (27:54):
Yeah, I was going to say sisters-in-law, but that was going to make the joke a little too... That was the only way that it could really happen, right?
Hope Foley (28:02):
Yeah. Tom's going to fact check this later.
Thomas LaRock (28:04):
It's what I do.
Hope Foley (28:05):
None of this works out. None.
Rob Collie (28:07):
"It turns out she has zero sisters-in-law named anything like that, Rob."
Hope Foley (28:11):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (28:11):
This is what I do.
Hope Foley (28:11):
It's Sheila.
Rob Collie (28:14):
"It's time for you to go sell AWS now, Rob."
Hope Foley (28:17):
[inaudible 00:28:17]
Rob Collie (28:19):
Couple years ago, I took a tour, a deliberate tour of all of the different Azure services because it's almost like, if you're loosely familiar with this stuff, you expect Azure to mean something, but it's really just an umbrella for a myriad of different services. If it's Microsoft cloud service, good chance it's labeled Azure.
Hope Foley (28:41):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (28:43):
Oh, my gosh. I learned so much just on that one tour. There were lots of different things, but there were two themes that emerged in my tour. One of them was, oh, my gosh. Look at all these Linux offerings! Holy cow! This is not the Microsoft I know, all these Linux offerings. But then I also started to see another set of services that, if you start lining them up, this one over here sounds like that Azure service, but it's not Linux. It's more of a Windows thing. "Then I go, oh, that is the Microsoft that I know.
Rob Collie (29:14):
Oh, okay. That's more like it." We're going to give you the Linux thing, but then we're going to look at it and go, "Oh, that's not good enough. There's a million ways that could be improved if it wasn't being developed in the open source of methodology. If we were thinking more in our enterprise corporate methodology, we come up with some better ways to work these things, and so we'll start building a better alternative." The cynic in me, the longtime Microsoft cynic is looking at this going, "Oh, this is that old joke. Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
Hope Foley (29:49):
What?
Rob Collie (29:49):
Right? The Linux services were the nice doggy, and then quietly in the background, they were developing the rock, these non-Linux alternatives. Even me, the dyed in the wool cynic about these sorts of things, I think I've come around this. I don't think that Microsoft really cares. I think if you want to use Linux on Azure, Microsoft is super, super duper happy to have you do that. I was still overlaying the old regime onto the new one, going like, it's not possible that this could actually be real. This is a ruse.
Hope Foley (30:24):
I feel like a lot of people lost a bet somewhere when they started going down that road. Yeah.
Rob Collie (30:29):
Well, I would've been the guy that took the bet and said, no, Microsoft won't do it. Then when they did it, I would say, I'm still not paying up because we have to see if they actually mean it, but I think now enough time is past. They mean it.
Hope Foley (30:42):
They totally mean it. Linux, open source. There's all kinds of... yeah. People, they'll see my eye device and like, "Oh, you got an eye..." I'm like, "We make all kinds of stuff for these things. It's a whole new Microsoft. What are you talking about?" My first foray into Linux was painful. Just being a Windows gal forever with SQL server, I didn't know a... it's still foreign, foreign, foreign stuff to me tech wise, but yeah. But I appreciate we're doing it. It just opens up more doors for our stuff, I think. It makes sense.
Rob Collie (31:13):
Do you agree with that characterization, that in addition to many, many other things, there's two parallel tracks of services? There's a bunch of Linux services and then there's a number of Windows based services that are parallels, that are almost like... they're not almost, they actually are alternatives to those Linux services?
Hope Foley (31:32):
Are you feeling Power BI on a Mac kind of lows or something?
Rob Collie (31:37):
No. I just think it's interesting to see that... you don't expect to go look at a product offering and start seeing pairs of offerings in that list that are basically described as the same thing, and then try to figure out, oh, okay. This one's Windows based, this one's... and this one over here... It's Windows based and it's Microsoft engineered by Microsoft engineers, as opposed to a Linux distribution thing. That's the core of the difference. I asked you if you agreed with that characterization.
Rob Collie (32:08):
The follow up question relies on you saying yes to the first one, but in the situations... and I'm genuinely curious about this. In the situations where there are two services that fill the same niche, one of the Linux and the Windows based, what percentage of the time do you see customers opting for one or the other?
Hope Foley (32:28):
Gosh, yeah. I feel like that's most of my job is, "Okay, well we can skin this cat the six different ways in Azure. Let me help you navigate your budget, your skillset, your workload, what it looks like, what you're trying to do." It seems like a lot of the technologies will borrow from each other. If there's a good idea in one, they'll steal it for the other one, of course, so it makes it confusing. I feel like that's a good part of my job, but I don't know. I feel like it's always a... can you get through a conversation without saying "it depends"?
Hope Foley (33:05):
It depends. It depends all the time on certain things, and it might just be the ego of the guy in the room. You've probably seen these, "I'm the new CE such and such, and I'm coming in to make my stamp on this, and whatever you had before, we're ripping that stuff out and we're going to put in the new thing. You guys are going to learn this in your free time." It could be technology choices that absolutely have nothing to do with anything. It maybe should be. Oh, gosh. It depends. Yeah.
Rob Collie (33:38):
I'm flabbergasted. I'm flabbergasted that technology decisions would ever be made for anything other than pure tech evaluation reasons. I just...
Hope Foley (33:47):
Sure.
Rob Collie (33:47):
Whew!
Hope Foley (33:48):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (33:48):
Shocking. I'm shocked.
Rob Collie (33:49):
Obviously, I'm not the least bit flabbergasted. I am non-gasted.
Hope Foley (33:56):
Yeah. I feel like some of the account teams that I work with, "Well, he's a new, and he's a this kind of guy. Well, we'll just wait for the next one to come around and..." because you can't... I mean, I love Microsoft. I don't know that I'm a zealot that I would pick our technology when it wouldn't make sense, but some people, they have their hammer, and by god, they're going to use it.
Rob Collie (34:20):
Yep, indeed. I always tell people, I'm not a Microsoft zealot. Being there taught me an artificial cynicism and probably my default, in some ways, might be like, ugh. Yet, over and over again, the thing is-
Hope Foley (34:38):
Microsoft hurt you.
Thomas LaRock (34:40):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (34:41):
Yeah. Show me on the doll... Show me on this doll where did Microsoft hurt you?
Thomas LaRock (34:45):
Show me on the Palmer doll.
Rob Collie (34:48):
I'll be pointing to every place on the doll.
Hope Foley (34:51):
[inaudible 00:34:51]-
Rob Collie (34:52):
We need a bigger doll.
Hope Foley (34:54):
We need a bigger doll.
Rob Collie (34:55):
We need more resolution you know?
Hope Foley (34:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (35:00):
But the best way to say it is, and I've said it before, is that Microsoft doesn't pay me anymore, but I have to make decisions. Our company has to make decisions in its own best interest, and we're free to choose any platform we want. We really are. We could switch to AWS tomorrow. We could switch to Tableau tomorrow. We have people that are flexible enough to do that, but those tools aren't as good. This is where I'm going to be non Satya-like. Out in the marketplace your choices are a series of trade-offs and alternatives to each other.
Rob Collie (35:32):
Microsoft just flat out has the best tools. No doubt about it. I like people to hear the other side of it, the cynicism and stuff. It helps them understand the authenticity of the statement, that I'm not in it for patriotism. We're in this because it really is the best. I actually am more bullish on Microsoft's future right now. I think you could assemble a room of 20 tech related people at random and I would bet that I'd be the most bullish on Microsoft's future out of the 20 time and time again.
Hope Foley (36:06):
We do cool stuff. We do make some cool stuff. Sometimes less cool than others, or sometimes this cool thing doesn't talk to that cool thing, or it takes a while to make them talk, but yeah, we do. We definitely do cool stuff.
Thomas LaRock (36:18):
I touched upon it earlier. I was teasing you about Google. In the space where I work, I really only see two cloud providers. There's Azure and AWS. I tip my cap to Alibaba, but I don't use them, but I know they're immensely popular. But there's always somebody who's like, "Yeah, but Google cloud, this, that and the other." I look and I say, Google will never be a threat to either AWS or Azure. You talk about how Azure builds cool stuff. I could tell you, so does Google builds cool stuff, but you know what else Google does? They kill stuff, sometimes quickly and unexpectedly.
Thomas LaRock (36:56):
They have built a reputation right now that they are just as likely to build something cool as they are likely to shut something cool down. If you have an enterprise, you are not going to choose Google Cloud as your provider, knowing in the back of your mind, whatever you're building could be killed in a minute. Whereas Azure and Microsoft's history is they might deprecate something, it's going to last a while. If they have customers on it and it's still viable, you can ride that ship for a while. That, to me, it will be the biggest reason why at the end, there's only going to be AWS and Azure. All these other ones are, they're just toys that are just going to go away.
Hope Foley (37:38):
Yeah. I was actually having somebody at Google try to make eyes at me in a employment sense. Yeah, they were like, well, they're investing in this for a couple years. Then I'm like, well, what happens after two years if this doesn't work? Thank you for the cup of coffee. I'm pretty good. I mean, I just can't imagine, Rob, if you guys decided to... You'd have to start all over. I like building on the info I learned on doing all these other things over the years. It would be crazy for me to just totally switch to a whole new somebody, something. Microsoft hasn't hurt me. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (38:26):
Not yet.
Hope Foley (38:26):
Not yet. God, yeah.
Rob Collie (38:29):
Oh, they will. They will.
Hope Foley (38:29):
Dun, dun, dun.
Thomas LaRock (38:33):
You know what? You're going to hear the Imperial March being played coming towards you.
Hope Foley (38:35):
Oh, god, yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Here's hoping.
Rob Collie (38:42):
In our history as a company, It's, again, ironic. This isn't actually powered by the cynicism or anything like that. It's just based on my personality in a way. You can describe our company as a Microsoft partner. That is a complete succinct description. That's what we are. We're a Microsoft partner, but we have not leaned into the Microsoft relationship hardly at all in our history, in terms of acquiring business. The vast majority of our business has come to us through our website, and now through digital means, and this year we have started to actually work closely and cooperate with Microsoft, with people such as yourself, Hope.
Rob Collie (39:17):
I mean, people within your role anyway. TSP, CSA, tomato, tomato. If we had built our business that way from the beginning, through the Microsoft relationship, then of course, the switching cost would've been immense, but up until now, really, we could have switched. It wouldn't have been that bad. All we'd do is change tools. What people view us as is a solution to a problem, and the tool... by definition. When it's going right, the software is not the star. It's the people involved that are doing good thinking and the tools are facilitating that. But it just turns out that the software, it doesn't make you a star. We vote with our wallet, which is the most authentic and high integrity way you can do it.
Hope Foley (40:02):
Sure.
Rob Collie (40:03):
The Google thing. I wonder how much of that Google killing things off is an example of the innovator's dilemma. You've got a core central business that's this massive cash cow, and you start off thinking, okay, we'll add this other thing over here, this other thing over here, and there won't be a problem, but five minutes later, you're starting to run into conflicts between those, like one of them's undermining the other one. If you fire up your email marketing system, like exact target or par dot or whatever, and you send out a bunch of emails with pictures in them, if you send those emails to Gmail accounts, they render perfectly in Gmail.
Rob Collie (40:42):
They look beautiful in Gmail. You send them to people on Exchange, O-365, and Outlook says, "We've prevented download of pictures, blah, blah, blah, to protect your privacy," and you get a garbled, hot mess of an email. It looks terrible, but one of those is protecting your privacy and one of them isn't. Gmail, by downloading those pictures, is telling the marketing system that you opened it, that you read it, and that's why Outlook blocks it. Google's roots is as a lead gen business, an advertising business. Gmail, of course, is not going to protect you against that. You can see two, three steps later... I'm not going to connect the dots directly, but two, three steps later, that mindset and that strategy can run into a problem with a corporate focused cloud system.
Rob Collie (41:33):
Which one's going to win? The one that we're betting on for the future or the one that's generating a billion dollars a second today? Let me think about that. You tend to get trapped by your own success. Microsoft was trapped by its own success with Windows for a while. They've reinvented a new... or they've morphed, not a full reinvention. They've morphed into a new identity that is far more durable, far more robust, but Google, they've got this giant ship, it's the Titanic. It's either going to float or it's going to sink, and I can't imagine that it's nearly as easy for them to innovate as it is for Microsoft.
Hope Foley (42:14):
The data privacy and, I mean, their whole business model is at odds with them being protective of your data, but yeah, it's an interesting point of, if you've got to follow the money, where is the money coming from and all of that?
Rob Collie (42:29):
Here's something pretty sinister. I've actually, on our previous podcast, we were joking about how we... I was being talked into Google being a really good thing. The guests on that podcast were explaining, and I was like, "Oh man, Google sounds like a really, really good group based on this description." Do you know what a tracking pixel is? It's literally a one pixel image, that's what it came from, that gets downloaded. It's really fast to download and it doesn't impact. It's just a white pixel on a white background, so you don't even see it.
Rob Collie (42:55):
But in the course of downloading it, that's how you know that someone opened the mail or looked at that webpage or whatever. It's a tracking pixel. What did Google call their phone? The Pixel. Somewhere, there's this sinister, smoke-filled room and people are laughing, going, "Yes, we will call our phone the Pixel. They will carry our tracking pixel everywhere they go. They will carry it into the grocery store. They will carry it here. They will carry it here, and the joke will be right there under their nose. No one will ever know it."
Hope Foley (43:23):
Yeah, that's an interesting... I've wondered sometimes on the Microsoft naming. How are these meetings happening? That one's a little more sinister sounding, than the ones I've pictured at the Microsoft naming meetings.
Rob Collie (43:40):
I've been in the Microsoft naming meetings. They are nothing to be proud of.
Hope Foley (43:47):
Death cage matches? I don't know. I don't know what I'm picturing.
Rob Collie (43:49):
Not even that. When we were going to name DAX, DAX didn't have a name yet. We are going to have the meeting about DAX. What are we going to call DAX? I was going to argue that we shouldn't call it anything. We should just call it Excel Extended or Excel++, or something like that, because that's the audience we were trying to reach. Amir came into the meeting and sat down. The first thing he said was, "Well, it doesn't matter what we call it. There's going to be an X in it."
Hope Foley (44:11):
What?
Rob Collie (44:18):
Data Analysis Expressions was born. One time on Excel when we were redoing all the charting features in Excel 2007, we hired this expensive naming firm and outsourced a bunch of name generation to them. One of the names that came back for the new charting features was Charty Pants. We were all sitting around going, "Oh, my gosh, we are such in the wrong business. We could be sitting around eating Cheetos."
Hope Foley (44:48):
Charty Pants. I might have been okay with that one. That one's... yeah. I don't know. I always pictured an Asian guy with a long beard on a mountain somewhere coming up with the names. Not so much. Yeah.
Rob Collie (45:02):
That's not where you get Charty Pants.
Hope Foley (45:03):
Gosh, how many times have I heard the SQL community folks get really, really, really up at arms about the naming and, "Why didn't they have somebody in tech in the conversation? We already have a thing called a "this"." They get a little fired up about the naming, but what are you going to do?
Thomas LaRock (45:27):
Does it have a space in it?
Hope Foley (45:27):
Do you capitalize it and a space?
Thomas LaRock (45:29):
Does it start with power?
Hope Foley (45:31):
How do you pronounce it? Yeah.
Rob Collie (45:33):
My first big project at Microsoft Windows installer, the MSI technology, the setup technology, it was insisted that Windows installer, the "I" in installer be lower case. We weren't allowed to capitalize the "I", and then Power Pivot when it came out, it was one word. Then later it was two words.
Hope Foley (45:52):
That's what Matthew Roche said. It was so metal, it had to get the space. Is that... I feel like he's the one that said that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (45:58):
No, I think it was that PowerView without a space was already trademarked by Bushnell, the binoculars company, so they had to put a space between, and then they put a space in Power Pivot to make it compatible. These are the important things.
Hope Foley (46:13):
Yeah. Global warming, or does it have a space or not? Yeah.
Rob Collie (46:18):
I mean, you've got to be at a really high pay grade to be making those sorts of decisions. I would always just get informed.
Hope Foley (46:26):
Yeah. I always have to say to customers, "They don't ask me my opinion on naming. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. So sorry."
Rob Collie (46:34):
Well, the other thing is, is that half the time, something really awesome, just amazing, a world beater will come out with just the most boring corporate name ever. You're just like, "Oh, come on folks. We could have sizzled this up just a little bit." I think that's gotten a little better over time. Is there any theme to needs in the education space? I mean, in some sense, these organizations are large organizations. They're not all that different on one level. They're not all that different from enterprises in general. People hear education, they immediately are going to be like, "Why does a kindergartner need Azure?" That's the first thing that pops into people's heads. And do kindergartners need Azure?
Hope Foley (47:18):
Sometimes.
Rob Collie (47:19):
They do.
Hope Foley (47:19):
It depends.
Rob Collie (47:20):
They do.
Hope Foley (47:20):
Yeah. No. I talked to some teachers that are actually teach... I mean, they're just trying to make sure that these kids can get jobs. I actually was helping with a precision agriculture class talking about technology and things, and I'm trying to make Cal references where I wouldn't normally put them, so that was fun and interesting. But yeah, I mean, they definitely do. It can definitely help. Just think about when I was in high school, the guy that was supporting the technology was, they grabbed the guy that knew... they're the last person in the room. They grabbed the guy that helps with the technology.
Hope Foley (47:58):
It can definitely help people stretch their skills further without having a giant corporation of nerds to put all the parts together. But yeah, I mean, education, a lot of times it's focused on the student outcomes. I'm sitting here staring at icons for a COVID dashboard. It's like everybody's trying to figure out their metrics on staying safe and different things, so it's a lot of the same things, but it can be different. A lot of times, they're all worried about student outcomes and those kind of things. It can be a little more rewarding a little bit, than just trying to help somebody sell another widget of some kind or something.
Rob Collie (48:43):
One of your colleagues about a year ago, emailed me just out the blue and asked me one of the more entertaining DAX questions I've ever received, which was-
Hope Foley (48:50):
This ought to be good.
Rob Collie (48:51):
... yeah, it's pretty cool, and you know what? I bet in the next six months, you're going to come back to me and say, "Okay, what was that DAX pattern?" Because you can really imagine it being used in a lot of places. The idea was this. Let's say we were looking at a particular school and their test scores, because we're concerned about outcomes. We're measuring via test scores and there's all kinds of criticisms of this revolution in education. We can just treat it as a data problem for a moment and just set all that other... "should we". The "should we" we can set aside, but this is talk about the how. You can display the results, the average test score for the school. No problem.
Rob Collie (49:24):
You're not giving away any individual's personally identifiable test score that way. Then you can drill down to the grade level. Again, you're not giving anything away, but sooner or later you keep drilling down. Now you get to an individual classroom and maybe some classes might be small. For some reason, you might have a four student class. Just in terms of privacy laws, at that moment, when you get down to that level, you can't display the average at that granular level because you're getting too close to identifying the score of an individual.
Rob Collie (50:00):
But you know what else you need to do, is that once you get down to that level, you also, let's say you've got half a dozen eighth grade classes at a school. Or fifth grade classes, that's a better analogy because you still have the individual classrooms. You got a half a dozen fifth grade classes and one of them has three people in it, so you can't display its score. Well, now you also have to be careful about displaying the fifth grade overall average because if you're displaying the average scores for all of the other classrooms and the subtotal for all of the fifth grade, now you can back into the number-
Hope Foley (50:35):
Wow.
Rob Collie (50:35):
... for that small class. In that moment, you have to suppress the number that's... you have to suppress the... in the report, you have to replace it with an asterisk, and you have to run randomly pick one of the other classes and suppress its number as well, because you still want to display the fifth grade overall. You don't want to suppress that one, but also, you can't be super random because when you refresh the report, if it's the one that you're suppressing, the random one keeps hopping around. Now, you've got it again. You randomly pick one, but it's the same one.
Rob Collie (51:08):
Can't it be done in DAX? I was like, "Oh, god." It's like Seinfeld with the roommate switch. It can't be done. I'm sure that it's not DAX that was going to run super, super efficiently because it has to do a lot, but I got it. I got it. We got that data suppression done in DAX for the low, low price of $1 million.
Hope Foley (51:26):
That would be... yeah.
Rob Collie (51:30):
Or free. You can choose between $1 million or free. I'll hook you up with that pattern.
Hope Foley (51:35):
I have heard them. Well, if you get down to a certain level, you have to do suppression, but I haven't heard... I haven't gotten into the weeds. That would be some hairy DAX. I feel like there's an index or something in there somewhere.
Rob Collie (51:47):
It's hairy DAX. It's a particular subspecies of DAX. As opposed to the smooth belly DAX, this is the hairy DAX.
Hope Foley (51:53):
Yeah. There is a fancy DAX, too.
Rob Collie (51:55):
Fancy DAXs. Oh, yeah, the pinky extended, as you type on the keyboard? Yeah.
Hope Foley (51:59):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (52:00):
In Excel there's certain formulas that you can write. Instead of pressing enter after writing the formula, if you do control, shift, enter, it changes the behavior. They're called array formulas. This is like DAX. You just keep the pinky off of the keyboard, extended, and you get different results.
Hope Foley (52:16):
I feel like Tom is killing you in his head. "If I have to hear about DAX one more time..." Yeah.
Rob Collie (52:21):
Tom Loves DAX.
Thomas LaRock (52:23):
Yeah. I do love DAX. It's just, I just... always amazed that all the little... it's not like in Easter, all the little things that are inside all these products, and a guy Rob, who helped build them or has learned them over the years. It ties back to what you and Wayne were talking about last week, the stuff he taught the finance team at Microsoft that nobody else in the world... It's all these little things that you come across. It amuses me.
Rob Collie (52:48):
The subtitle of this podcast is Data With a Human Element. If you think about the example I just talked about, regardless of the DAX, I love that example because it is. It is this blending between the real life human needs, the real life needs of humanity explicitly built for this. The competitive software that this Microsoft employee was up against, I forget what one it was, has a built in feature for precisely this. This is a feature that they specifically engineered into the product, and probably because they ran into an education scenario and they needed it, and so they went back to the engineering team and added it.
Rob Collie (53:23):
Microsoft could still do that, and they might at some point. They absolutely might. Even without thinking about it, the language that they developed, DAX, was so complete that we could go and generate a solution to this that no one ever thought about or no one ever intended. To me, that is a mark of beauty. When I talk about, we don't change tools because there isn't anything better? None of the other tools have that capability that I just talked about. They just don't.
Rob Collie (53:55):
If someone didn't think of it, it's not in there, but in the Microsoft platform, that's one of the things that they're really, really, really good at is thinking of it as a platform. You hear people complain about DAX is too hard. Well, it is hard. It does require you to learn something new, but there's other systems that require you to learn a little less, that are also dead ends. There's a million dead ends in those products five minutes later. There's no dead ends typically in a Microsoft product. Really, there's no comparison. You need the one that's going to address every little last mile of your unique little human problems. End of sermon.
Hope Foley (54:36):
Drop the mic. Yeah.
Rob Collie (54:38):
We've talked about adding some sort of sound effect that was like, "We're now entering the monologues zone." I will say this. It's been a great conversation. I'm really, really glad we did this. Hope, I'm thrilled that you were able to make it.
Thomas LaRock (54:54):
Yes. Thank you, Hope.
Hope Foley (54:56):
Appreciate you having me.
Announcer (54:56):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show. Email Luke P., L-U-K-E, p@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
He's known as the Man of a Thousand Jobs and he's done it all. From horse farming and training, to security at Rupp Arena, to using dynamite to blow up mines, to analytical chemistry and everything in between. Kevin currently works at Eli Lilly and Company and his path to Power BI was anything but a typical data journey. He's a fine Southern Gentleman with a mind for data, he's Kevin Overstreet. Episode Timeline: * 2:07 - Kevin's Data Salvation, his impressive pedigree, and his amazing career path * 9:17 - Data challenges at Eli Lily and how they've overcome them using the right tools * 19:11 - The Wild West that is Sharepoint * 24:00 - Rob launches one of his World Famous Monologues, this time it's about new branding for BI * 30:13 - Does solving a problem have to be complex? Kevin discusses a great work mindset to overcome certain obstacles * 33:00 - The Impostor Syndrome * 36:30 - Dataflows and how to keep data secure * 39:45 - Whose problem is it-The Business side or the IT side? * 45:30 - The Power of the new BI Tools * 48:36 - The story of how Kevin met Rob reveals a character trait that is valuable
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00):
Hello, again, data people. Today, we welcome Kevin Overstreet to the show. Now, Lon Chaney was known as the man of a thousand faces. Well, Kevin Overstreet, I call him the man of a thousand jobs because he has had almost every job you can imagine from horse trainer, to analytical chemists, to dynamiting mining, making roads construction guy, and all points in between. But for the past six years, Kevin has been a Power BI and Power Platform professional. He works at Eli Lilly, and he provides a tremendous amount of essentially like anything glue, to make everything run.
Rob Collie (00:37):
We crossed paths a long time ago when he came to one of our Power BI classes, one that I taught in Cleveland, but he's not a one trick pony. He is really up to his eyeballs in the entire Microsoft stack, especially in the Power Platform, and he is a really entertaining conversation, and I hope you enjoy it. Let's get after it.
Announcer (00:58):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:59):
This is the Raw Data by P3 Podcast with your host, Rob Collie and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (01:17):
All right. Welcome to the show. Kevin Overstreet.
Kevin Overstreet (01:21):
Hello.
Rob Collie (01:22):
How are you doing, Kevin?
Kevin Overstreet (01:23):
Good.
Rob Collie (01:24):
As usual, you're joined by myself and Tom, or Thomas LaRock, depending upon, whether you use the professional version or not. Well, Kevin, let's get right to it. I'm really excited to have you on the podcast. I think it's going to be a real treat. Let's start here. Why do we know each other? What do you do these days that is relevant to data and the Microsoft data platform and business application platform? Just give us a quick summary there.
Kevin Overstreet (01:53):
I work at Eli Lilly. Although I work at Lilly, all my opinions are my own, but one of the things that we do is we deal with massive amounts of data every day. Previously, years ago I was doing that in Excel and then one day I was searching for how to figure out a distinct count of items in a pivot table, and that was where I stumbled upon the Power Pivot Pro blog.
Rob Collie (02:19):
Oh yeah. What year roughly was that?
Kevin Overstreet (02:23):
I think that was around 2010, 2011. It wasn't very long after Power Pivot was first released and you had started the blog that we kind of gravitated and found each other. At least I found you at that point.
Rob Collie (02:37):
That's been a long road, hasn't it? We like to joke about, and you like to joke about, you being patient zero at Eli Lilly for this stuff. There's a lot of people who started out in Excel and found their way to this stuff. That's no accident. You're not the usual Excel story. What's your trained discipline. If you're at a pharmaceutical conference, how are you going to introduce yourself? What's your background?
Kevin Overstreet (03:04):
At one point, I was an analytical chemist. Now, before that, I was actually in the department of immunology at the University of Kentucky and we were doing brain tumor research there. Technically, I'm a biologist/immunologist.
Rob Collie (03:18):
Yeah. Some really lightweight stuff going from immunology and cancer research to analytical chemistry, which I don't even really know how that differs from chemistry, but it's got a cool adjective on the front of it, doesn't it? Yeah.
Kevin Overstreet (03:34):
It does.
Rob Collie (03:35):
But as a personal matter of interest, I call you the man of thousand jobs.
Kevin Overstreet (03:40):
That's true.
Rob Collie (03:41):
You've already dropped some serious interest there, but everyone's got a different path to this stuff. You probably have a unique path. What other jobs have you had Kevin? Just like a softball of a question.
Kevin Overstreet (03:51):
I did not have an IT background, so I grew up on a horse farm in Kentucky where we had about 300 horses when I was growing up. I think my first job was probably hauling hay and cleaning out horse stalls for my dad at 50 cents a day, which he docked us on if we didn't think he had done enough. That started at about 12-years-old. A friend of ours had a pizza parlor. So, I was in charge of the big, giant, deep fryer, this high pressure deep fryers, which you probably couldn't do today.
Rob Collie (04:25):
Every pizza parlor needs a gigantic deep fryer, yes?
Kevin Overstreet (04:29):
That's true.
Rob Collie (04:30):
Because you need what? Fried pizza.
Kevin Overstreet (04:32):
Whether anybody remembers this is definitely me dating me, it was the shaky pizza parlor. Not only did they have pizza, but they also had fried chicken.
Rob Collie (04:41):
Oh, okay.
Kevin Overstreet (04:42):
So, I dipped my hands down into the hot grease to fried chicken at 12-years-old. Then around 14, we built a racetrack on the farm and started training horses. So, I was training horses there for several years. We've had about three world champions come off of that farm. There, I went, while I was in college, I was a security guard at Rupp Arena. We did security for all the concerts and everything there. I hung out with a Rat one night, if anybody remembers Rat. During time off from college, I worked for a communications company that was installing all new phone system at Auburn University.
Kevin Overstreet (05:23):
I worked for a construction company where we were installing a water main in the middle of winter, which was a little chilly. The great part about that was it was over an old strip mine, so we had to dynamite out holes for the pipe, and probably not quite as many safety measures back then. Our safety measure was taken off running and as fast as possible and waving our hand because we were setting off the dynamite with telephone wire on a car battery.
Rob Collie (05:52):
Really just your average usual, like in Austin power, it's just your typical usual stuff really.
Kevin Overstreet (05:58):
That's it. Yeah. Nothing to see here.
Rob Collie (06:00):
Nothing to see here. And despite all of that, the last decade, basically.
Kevin Overstreet (06:05):
Yep.
Rob Collie (06:05):
You've been in our world, and you left all the dynamite and analytical chemistry behind. What does an average work week look like for you? What are the things that you're doing with the data platform?
Kevin Overstreet (06:16):
We have a massive SharePoint installation. I guess one of the great things was, was just about the time I was discovering Power Pivot, I was also discovering the power of SharePoint. It had kind of always been this black box at Lilly of this is our sharing platform of the future, and then they put out about three PowerPoint slides for how to use it, which is probably not a whole lot different, but I'm a huge SharePoint fan. At this point, we manage a lot of one off processes through SharePoint.
Kevin Overstreet (06:50):
Not only the data management, but the data input, sort of whatever that user facing front end is. We're doing that with Power apps. We're doing huge amounts of things with Flow. Flow has been incredibly powerful. We've taken processes that used to take us 30, 40, 50 hours a month and now have completely automated that using Microsoft Flow. Those have been incredible opportunities, things that we found. But on a daily basis, probably 95% of my day is in one of the Power Platform tools. I'm either in Power apps, Flow or Power BI. And we sort of see all three of those things going together in any solution that we deliver.
Rob Collie (07:33):
How does that workload, the things that you're working on, that 95%, how does that contrast with your sort of official position, your official job duties? It'd be hard for me to imagine that your official job duties are defined as that 95% that you're currently doing.
Kevin Overstreet (07:52):
That's always been a little weird for me no matter where I'm at. My job description, when I was an analytical chemist, I was still doing a lot of data management there and building tools in Excel. At that time, of course, it was all VBA and pivot tables and moving information around. But I guess I've always had an interest in that. When I was, technically, I was still an analytical chemist. At that point, I had already moved into a data role about 50% of the time.
Kevin Overstreet (08:22):
Yeah, now, for the most part, I'm known as the SharePoint guy, or the Power BI guy, or the Flow guy, whatever it is, typically, if there's something going on or somebody has a problem, eventually those things find their way to me. Because I have been using it, like you said, for about 10 years now.
Thomas LaRock (08:39):
Kevin, the question I have, because I'm always fascinated by data, because first of all, I think you have a fascinating background. Love the accent. Before I forget, I wanted to mention, since you're Kentucky and horse racing, all that, I was really happy to see Bob Baffert win the Kentucky Derby, because if there's ever a guy in this world that needs a lucky break and something good to happen to him, it's Bob Baffert, so I just thought you'd appreciate that.
Thomas LaRock (09:07):
Anyway, tell me something about the challenges you have with data over Eli Lilly, without getting really too. But I feel that you're going to share something, myself, Rob and our listeners will just sort of be like, yep, that's exactly what I go through on a daily basis as well. Tell me some of the challenges that you have.
Kevin Overstreet (09:24):
Sure. I mean, a lot of the challenges that we have are just compiling data. People have a lot of requirements, and for the most part, people are comfortable in Excel. I think in any company you're at, you're still going to see massive Excel reports that are out there that people are producing every day. Like most companies, we are aggregating massive amounts of data on any given day. We're compiling that into reports that are delivered either to specific people or maybe to a common location where other people are picking those up.
Kevin Overstreet (09:59):
And everybody talks about a golden data source, but I think that becomes even more important now as these tools get stronger and end users can begin to become more accustomed with them, they start to take those reports and files and do lots of crazy things with them. I think that's one of the things that the Power Platform gives us, is that way to sort of standardize those processes and deliver kind of a consistent product, no matter what that is, whether that's a visual or whether that's a report.
Kevin Overstreet (10:32):
Now, the other thing that I'm sure a lot of people struggle with, and especially in SharePoint, if you think of something as simple as document metadata. So, everybody is tagging documents with metadata and companies can have hundreds or thousands of SharePoint sites across that, and of course everybody's tagging it differently, and that can be project name, whatever it might be, depending on where you're at.
Kevin Overstreet (11:00):
But one of the things that we've been able to do with Power Automate is basically create one SharePoint site that we consider our master metadata and then we populate that out to every other SharePoint site sort of in our functional area there. Now, everybody's using the same metadata. So, when it comes time to compile that data, it's very easily to take Power BI connect into those SharePoint sites and be able to pull together a really consistent list of information. Because if not, over time, people record things differently, they use different terms, but then at some point somebody's going to come and say, "I want all of that data." And then that's going to result in a two or three week sprint of everybody trying to decipher all the different ways that data's been stored over, possibly years.
Rob Collie (11:51):
So how? The naïve way to look at it would be to say, well, of course, Kevin, you were in charge of all of these SharePoint sites, and you came up with the Schema, that was standard. Then you just rolled it out because everyone had to listen to you. I just don't think that's how it happened. How do you heard the cats like that to get everyone on the same page with such a thing?
Kevin Overstreet (12:12):
It's hard to get people on the same page, and I don't think by just rolling something out and saying, here it is, you're not going to get much uptake on that. People are locked into their old ways of doing things, no matter how any efficient that is, you can go to somebody and say, I'm going to save you 50% of your time. They go, that's okay. I'll just stick with what I've got, because they're uncomfortable doing something new. I think what you have to do is you have to deliver something, and this does end up in a very iterative approach sometimes, but you have to deliver something that has a personal impact to people, where they can physically sort of feel that change of, oh, this is going to make my life easier.
Rob Collie (12:56):
Deliver, then explain, rather than explain than deliver.
Kevin Overstreet (13:02):
Yeah. I tend to talk in the air a lot and people can't necessarily follow that when I'm drawing on my virtual whiteboard that's in front of me. When people come to you with an idea, they're basing that idea on what their experience is. They'll start with things of, I need a form that does this, or I need an Excel file that does X, whatever that might be. A lot of times they're just going based on what experience they've had and what they know is out there and may not even know what the possibilities are.
Rob Collie (13:37):
The reason I said that deliver then is it hearkens back to questions that I've been asked over the years, which is ... I get asked this less often lately, which is actually really encouraging. But for a long time, I would be asked, hey, how do I get buy-in in the broader organization or in my sister organization, the peer organization, how do I get them to buy into the power of, let's say Power BI? The advice I would give them is don't try to play, my software can beat up your software. Don't try to explain it like it's a conflict of two tools.
Rob Collie (14:13):
Just go and build something that was impossible. Go build something that was impossible and then give it to them and say, see, this is it. It sounds like your philosophy, even though I don't think you and I have ever actually talked about this. It sounds like your philosophy has found itself with that exact same method.
Kevin Overstreet (14:31):
Yeah, I think so. Over time, before this was kind of my official role, the tools that I built were for things that annoyed me. I don't want to do that anymore so I'm going to build a tool and that's what I always tell people now. If I have to do it more than twice, I'm going to automate it in some way. That's it. I can remember we built just a scheduling tool and it was because I didn't feel like walking around on the floor and writing my name on one of 50 whiteboards for a reservation when we've got ... We're all setting at our computer, at least half the day, why not build a reservation system in SharePoint?
Rob Collie (15:08):
That's great. There's so many things that are interesting here. One of them is, is that a lot of analyst types, I would count myself in this, a lot of analyst types, we kind of want to join the story after the data has been created. I gravitate towards, let's go look at what you're already recording about your business and see what that's telling us. Of course that's super valuable. That's, in a lot of ways, central. That's what BI is.
Rob Collie (15:41):
One of the things that I really like about you is that you don't perceive that artificial boundary. You're really willing and excited about engaging upstream, even in like what I would think of if I wanted to really paint it with a broad brush, I would say that you're involved in the data collection process, the data creation process, like you get into the workflows that are upstream from analysis, and I'm going to going somewhere with this overall theme, but I want to stop and see what your reaction is to that.
Kevin Overstreet (16:17):
I do agree with that. I think that the one thing that I've always liked is solving problems, and I think as I go back, and we were talking about all my jobs before, I think that, especially as I've gotten older, the jobs that I really joyed, even if the sort of subject matter was different, was the ability to solve a problem. Whether that's developing a new analytical method, or in this case, developing a new process or form, but sort of relating that to your, I don't want to come in till the data is there.
Kevin Overstreet (16:52):
I really got started in collecting the data for ... Someone was asking for me to analyze data that was in no shape for me to be able to analyze. So, it took so much manual preparation. It was like, I'm just going to go in and build something that's going to collect the data the way that I want it and the way that I need it. I think Power Pivot kind of revved that up a little bit more in 2010, when all of a sudden, now I can deal with millions of rows of data and I can deal with millions of rows of data in SharePoint. Okay, now I have no limitation to how much data I can record.
Kevin Overstreet (17:27):
I'm just going to record everything and I'm going to figure out what I'm going to do with it later, because I think there's value there.
Rob Collie (17:33):
Tom likes to talk about no one set out to be a data janitor.
Thomas LaRock (17:37):
That's right. No one went to school to become a data janitor.
Rob Collie (17:40):
That's right.
Thomas LaRock (17:41):
And you replied to me, and yet here we are.
Rob Collie (17:44):
Yeah, here we are. There's a little irony in that. At one point in his life, Kevin was cleaning out horse stalls. I think the Power Platform's got a lot to it, but I'm not sure that would really help you with the horse stall cleaning.
Kevin Overstreet (17:59):
It probably would with the horse racing. I've gone back and I've talked to my dad now about, oh, if we'd only had these tools back then, the things that I could do. Because I can remember my first computer was like a 386SX with a whapping one megabyte of Ram and a 40 megabyte hard drive, and I think I spent about $200 to update that to two megabytes. I was using Quattro Pro and dBASE III Plus. I was trying to do all these things with horse races.
Kevin Overstreet (18:32):
Even back then, I think I kind of had an interest, but in my everyday life, I don't find anywhere that you can apply some of these tools. We've had that conversation before about, anybody who has any small business at all, now would just be crazy not to jump into these tools and get a subscription because of everything that it can do for you.
Thomas LaRock (18:54):
What I like hearing is you talking about a success story and you're combining a couple of tools, Excel and SharePoint. Like you said, back in 2010 was the, I'll call it the first of a game changer, we'll say, right?
Kevin Overstreet (19:10):
Right.
Thomas LaRock (19:10):
Because before that, in my background being a production DBA for seven years, if anything touched SQL server, all of a sudden it was mine. SharePoint being one of those things. Back then, SharePoint was ... It was ugly. It was a mess. It wasn't something that will have the scarves. You say SharePoint, and I'm like, just get away from me, man. Just [crosstalk 00:19:34]. When I hear those stories, the thing is, is at the time, those stories didn't exist, or if they did, they didn't really resonate with me. Hearing it now, I have so much more appreciation for the collaboration that, that has fostered.
Thomas LaRock (19:49):
Here we are 10 years later and we see these tools, and I see them in a much more positive light. Tell me some of those success stories for you where you are. Have you seen that same thing where it really fosters more of a collaboration, there's no real stigma with it. Nobody's saying, oh God, you're using Excel or you're still writing code in Python, that type of gate keeping, like it really has helped foster and made things better.
Kevin Overstreet (20:18):
I think so. I mean, especially in that kind of citizen developer role. You, as the SQL guy, you had access to plenty of SQL servers and everything, where to store your data. When I first start out, SharePoint was just the only tool that was available to me. I had zero IT background. Other than some fairly basic VBA, I wasn't going to go in and write crazy SQL code or anything. I just started using the tools that I knew how to use at the time, which started to be SharePoint and then Excel, and then, as those things, then Power BI came along, and then now the Power Platform.
Kevin Overstreet (20:59):
I think those things just build over time. I know that Rob is constantly talking about people with the data gene. I think that's what you find. I mean, I still think SharePoint has a lot of detractors no matter where you're at. But I think part of that is, SharePoint is still kind of the wild west. If you're going to let people just create sites and do whatever they want, there's going to be some crazy things that are going to happen in there that are going to frustrate you for sure.
Rob Collie (21:27):
Well, now that SharePoint has moved largely to the cloud and online and it's Microsoft servers that's running it for most people, all those problems that you're talking about, Tom, they don't come to you anymore. But yeah, I completely understand. As someone who was sort of like thrust into managing a SharePoint firm 2010, because there was no alternative, oh my gosh, this is something that you would give to your enemies, was managing that.
Rob Collie (21:57):
From a SQL perspective, nothing could have been more unclean. There's no abuser of SQL quite like SharePoint.
Kevin Overstreet (22:03):
Well ...
Rob Collie (22:03):
Okay. Okay, people. Second to people, is that other thing.
Thomas LaRock (22:13):
There's still some products. There's other products. We don't have to name them.
Rob Collie (22:19):
Yeah. But really, SharePoint's like ... That's a product that's really kind of come into its own, I think. The stuff from 10 years ago is not remotely relevant anymore. But boy, that was not a lot of fun back in the day.
Kevin Overstreet (22:32):
I think people get overwhelmed by SharePoint when they begin to learn how to use it, because you search and there's all these things. I'm just a basic guy. I've never gone, I've never written one piece of custom code in SharePoint. Everything I've done has been out of the box. I've never created a content type. Everybody talks about content types and SharePoint. I've never created a content type in SharePoint. Could not tell you how to do it. Typically, whatever's there is what I use.
Rob Collie (23:02):
Kevin, it just now struck me, you remind me of Phil Hartman's character on Saturday Night Live, the unfrozen caveman lawyer. I don't understand this stuff. I'm just a simple guy. I've never created a content type in SharePoint. I've never written any custom SharePoint code. However, I've been a cancer researcher. I've been an analytical chemist, and on top of that, I've blown things up with dynamite. You didn't drop this earlier, but I'm going to drop it for you. You've won every horse training award that there can be won that's awarded by the state of Kentucky.
Kevin Overstreet (23:36):
That is true. Yeah.
Rob Collie (23:38):
You're just a simple man. You're really just an every man. We're all basically you, is what you're really trying to tell us. Right?
Kevin Overstreet (23:44):
That's it. I'm a basically A to B kind of guy.
Rob Collie (23:49):
Yeah, that's it. That's it. Simple. So simple. If only everyone were as simple as you Kevin. These podcasts always end up with at least one small, and not necessarily always small, but there's always some moment of Rob monologue, and I'm aware of this. Here it is. We're entering the monologue zone. One of the things that I have been witnessing and watching as a professional over the last 10 years, especially recently, is this notion that BI, business intelligence, analytics, whatever you want to call it, it's been its own thing. It's been its own discipline for a very long time, but that's only because it's been so bad.
Rob Collie (24:36):
When something is really bad and it hasn't delivered on its promise, or even on its need, a lot of attention gets focused on it, and it becomes a thing, almost like a goal in and of itself. BI, the I stands for intelligence. Why? Why do we need to be intelligent? We only need to be intelligent because we need to improve. We need to improve our business. I'd like to mark today, the small number of us, we try to start a movement where we rebrand the eye from intelligence to improvement.
Rob Collie (25:13):
Being informed is only meant to power improvement, and this is where I think that the story comes back around to you, Kevin. Because I think you don't come into this story with this like, it's BI or nothing mindset. It's just problem is problem. I talked earlier about how a lot of your activities, a lot of things that you do are about optimizing, even upstream of analysis. You're saying, hey, in order to get a better picture for our business, we need to improve the data collection process.
Rob Collie (25:45):
I think that's just incredibly noble. That is the right mindset. At the same time, when you're looking at a dashboard or report, whatever you want to call it, all the nouns, get confused, but really people think of them as dashboards, when you're looking at a dashboard and you see something that needs fixing, or you see an opportunity that you want to go after, there's also a downstream from the report, from the dashboard.
Rob Collie (26:11):
I like to talk about this as the action loop. There's upstream, and then there's noticing an opportunity or a problem, and that's what BI does. It helps you notice things, and then you take action on it, and then you see if the action worked. Did it actually have the desired impact? How much, if any, work have you've done with the Power Platform that's extending sort of downstream from power BI. We talked about upstream, the collection of data and things like that. What about downstream? What about the taking action phase? Have you done anything there? It's okay if you haven't, I'm just actually curious.
Kevin Overstreet (26:43):
Yeah. I mean, I think, if what you're talking about, we've started to implement more Power apps into dashboards so that people can annotate data in real time, in some cases, depending on what your application is, you're limited by your dashboard refresh rates. And other times, you can show that information in real time right in the Power app. I think, as we move forward and those tools continue to mature, and we begin to learn more how to do those things, that that's going to be the thing. Because no matter what, if you've got a number in the box, there's always context around on that.
Kevin Overstreet (27:23):
You're never going to be able to provide all of the context that everybody wants in that dashboard. So, giving people the ability to add comments to it, and then make that available in a popup in the dashboard, a popup tool tip where somebody can hover over something and see comments that people have left over time or questions that they may have had, or even to the point where we implement a Power apps and SharePoint sort of solution in order to be able to correct data that we're getting from other places.
Kevin Overstreet (27:57):
Basically, we're looking, if there's a value in our tool, we're going to take that value over the value that we may be getting for from another place. I think there's lots of opportunities to sort of affect that in both ways, but yeah, particularly upstream, and I think those opportunities are just getting bigger all the time.
Rob Collie (28:15):
You make that sound so easy.
Thomas LaRock (28:17):
He really does.
Rob Collie (28:19):
It's just like second nature. My grandfather, who you would've liked, had a saying, which was like, it's very difficult to fence in an earthworm. You, Kevin, are the earthworm.
Kevin Overstreet (28:31):
It's true. Could be.
Rob Collie (28:33):
Oh yeah, this is the box. No, no, this is not a container. I am going to show you that we can solve anything. Yeah. You should be the poster child for the entire Power Platform.
Kevin Overstreet (28:45):
A lot of times, everybody, they look at these things and go, oh my gosh, that's so complex. How did they do that? The very first form that I ever built that I integrated into Power BI was just a customized list form from SharePoint where I just went in and said customized form, and then just went in and figured out how to re place the data sources with the data from Power BI. These don't have to be complex solutions to sort of generate huge value and change.
Rob Collie (29:16):
Kevin, I'm going to ask you this question very delicately.
Kevin Overstreet (29:20):
Okay.
Rob Collie (29:20):
Have you ever considered a career in consulting?
Kevin Overstreet (29:26):
I think I'm too old now. 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I may have considered that. Now I'm getting older. I think more importantly, my dad's getting older, so at some point, somebody's got to go back and start hauling hay again, and I guess that's going to be me.
Rob Collie (29:41):
Ladies and gentlemen, Kevin is 37-years-old. Someone's got to haul that hay. I mean the hay doesn't haul itself.
Kevin Overstreet (29:56):
Yeah. I always say, I'm 53 now, but I really feel 43 because there's like 10 years in there that are a little iffy.
Rob Collie (30:03):
And who are you if you haven't had a 10 iffy?
Kevin Overstreet (30:07):
That's right.
Rob Collie (30:08):
You've got to have that.
Thomas LaRock (30:10):
What really just resonated with me just now is how Kevin, you mentioned, it doesn't have to be complex. All you did was populate that list, but that made a difference for members of your team and your organization. It wasn't complex. It was just that nobody else was going to do it. So, it's part of you being the person that, not only knows what needs to be done, but is willing to roll up your sleeves and go do it. I think a lot of that just goes back to who you've described yourself as a person. Cleaning out the stables as a kid, working the deep fryer, everything you've done.
Thomas LaRock (30:48):
These aren't glorious jobs, but it's work, and it's work that somebody has to take on, and you're the guy that's just, well, yeah, I'll see if I can do it. I think, for a lot of people, they kind of come at things just a little bit differently. I don't know what we need or I know what the problem is, but I don't know how to solve it. I don't know where to go. And they're just not willing to roll their sleeves and read a manual type thing.
Kevin Overstreet (31:11):
Yeah. I do, do a lot of reading. I've said before, I think I've got every Power BI book that was written, probably not recently, but from about four years ago, historically, I probably had every Power BI book that had been written, and three of those were autographed by the author. The chemist may be the biggest geek in the room whenever I'm around. But yeah, I think that people get caught up in those processes that they're in every day. It seems overwhelming to try to change from that. Pat, one of my colleagues at work, he always says, look, if you take 10 minutes today and learn something, it's going to save you 30 minutes, and then take that 30 minutes tomorrow and learn something else.
Kevin Overstreet (31:58):
Then, eventually those things are going to kind of snowball, and even when you were talking about problem earlier, you don't necessarily have to solve the whole problem, but you can always start by solving part of the problem. If you see that a solution to a problem is emailing around an Excel sheet where 50 people are making changes in it, then somehow you're supposed to take all those versions and put them together in some coherent way, there are ways to fix that. A lot of times, I think the thing that you struggle with the most is probably just behavior change.
Rob Collie (32:33):
It's always those people. Those people, they just don't do what they should, do they?
Kevin Overstreet (32:39):
They won't listen.
Thomas LaRock (32:40):
It's always a people problem.
Rob Collie (32:41):
It's always a people problem. I agree. We identify as technology professionals at our own peril. What we are, are people who are able to use technology in a human context. If you start identifying yourself as a technology professional, you kind of are already defining yourself into failure in a way.
Thomas LaRock (33:01):
Yep.
Rob Collie (33:02):
I did have one other thing I was thinking while you were talking just in Kevin, the way you were talking about these problems and how just sort of the way you approach them and everything, it's not a risk to say that a large percentage of the people who are listening to this suffer with imposter syndrome, this belief, this uncertainty that, maybe I'm just not that good. Maybe I'm not all those kinds of things. This comes from humility. It comes from questioning yourself. You really can't stop doing those things.
Rob Collie (33:31):
You always need to be questioning yourself. Otherwise, you never grow. You don't treat other people correctly. It is the way to be. But it does, it results in imposter syndrome. What I've found over the years, and what we found as a group, is that the only antidote to imposter syndrome is understanding, I'll use Kevin as example, understanding that people like Kevin, or yourself, whoever's listening, that most people aren't like you.
Rob Collie (34:00):
The things that you're saying, Kevin, you do, you make them sound so simple. Of course, it's just this kind of problem and we're going to approach it this way and we're going to solve it. To you, that doesn't sound that special. It's obvious. It's almost like table stakes to you. I'm not going to say there's only one you, even in your workplace, but there aren't that many. You stand out. People come to you from all the way across the organization, people who don't even work in the same building. Well, we don't work in buildings anymore, do we?
Rob Collie (34:28):
But back when you worked in buildings, they would come from other buildings to seek out your help and your advice on whatever their project was. That's because you do stand out. Our team, our whole company, we're populated with people who do experience imposter syndrome despite being very, very good. You just got to understand that there is something, even though you're questioning yourself all the time, you are kind of special because no one else is really doing those same things.
Kevin Overstreet (34:55):
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, we've had this conversation before that, I don't feel like I'm been doing things that are that complex. I've told you, when I get on your site or I get on other sites and I look at the things that people were doing and the DAX code that they're writing, even like Pat, my colleague and friend that we talked about earlier, he has a blog post on your site where he calculated like 10 billion nations for like Texas Holdem or something. I'm not capable of doing those things.
Kevin Overstreet (35:28):
I kind of always have an interest in stuff, so when something new comes out, I at least want to investigate it. Although I may not be able to solve something immediately and I'm not going to write these incredibly complex solutions, I think that over time, I have found approaches that work to problems and you kind of try to categorize those, and then use those proven approaches that you know are going to work. I mean, to this day, and especially now with Power Automate, I still do a lot of stuff with Excel and Power Query, where I may need to pull information from one location and transfer that to another while I just make a Power Query connection to the data location.
Kevin Overstreet (36:13):
I can then drop that Excel file into a SharePoint and have Power Automate, go and create those items as many places as I want automatically. It's just sticking with those things that I know have worked over time.
Rob Collie (36:28):
Do you have access to Dataflows? Have you had any exposure to it?
Kevin Overstreet (36:33):
We do. Yeah.
Rob Collie (36:34):
It seems like this is your next place where you just catch fire.
Kevin Overstreet (36:39):
Yeah. So, we've started exploring Dataflows a little bit. The other thing that I've started to get interested in is basically creating a Power BI data model that you can then publish into the Power BI service, and then that can be used as a data source for your power app. Now we're taking information that maybe is in all of these different locations, and we only need a little bit of that, but we need a little bit from every location. Now we can just use Power BI to grab all of that, throw that together and basically create a data source for a Power app or for Flow to operate against.
Thomas LaRock (37:21):
What you've just described to me, Kevin, is essentially nothing short of a nightmare. Because now, now you've got data everywhere, right? That's going to lead to other problems. Now you're at risk of somebody takes that power BI, that project, and they bring it home with them, or they put it on the USB and they leave it on the bus. How do you handle that situation? Because I mean, you've done a great job of curating your data, collecting it, moving it around, getting it to the right people. But how does Lilly make sure it doesn't walk out the door. And don't give away any trade secrets, but obviously it must be a topic of discussion.
Kevin Overstreet (38:00):
I can't speak for Lilly. I can only speak for just sort of in general, but I think that absolutely security has to be a top concern, whatever that is. I mean, I know now that a lot of companies, you can't even copy information to external drives. That happens. I've been through this discussion multiple times, because a lot of the times, I cannot necessarily get the access I need. I may have access to a reporting portal where I can get all the information I need, but I can't get direct access to the data. So, I developed some process to get around that, to get to that data that I need.
Thomas LaRock (38:41):
La, la, la, I'm not hearing that. I'm just going to put fingers in my ears.
Kevin Overstreet (38:46):
Here's the thing I would say. I always say the security that we need to worry about is not necessarily at the system levels, or even at the Power BI level where somebody else is controlling security. I mean, no matter what company you are at, there are millions of Excel sheets floating around through email and SharePoint and networks and wherever else it may be. I mean, I always think that, that's probably a bigger security concern than putting some in Power BI.
Rob Collie (39:19):
Oh yeah. Tom's reaction to what you were just saying. I know Tom was being tongue in cheek, but at the same time, it is very much the stuff of IT nightmares, the earthworm that can't be fenced in. You're out there every day generating systems. You're generating, whether you think of it as code, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't, it's all code. You're generating solutions every day. I think the real problem here is that, as soon as something becomes a solution, as soon as it crosses a certain psychological threshold, now it sounds like IT's problem.
Rob Collie (39:59):
Whereas the spreadsheets don't most of the time. They don't sound like it's problem. Spreadsheets seem like they're the businesses problem, until those spreadsheets integrate with some sort of backend system in some sort of Rube Goldberg way that IT didn't anticipate, those spreadsheets are the business problem. But you start building things like automation workflows that go from SharePoint to this, to that, and then you decide to go back to bailing, hey, you go back to the farm. What's left behind is something that someone on the business side created, you, and now you're gone, and IT, they're not necessarily up on those languages.
Rob Collie (40:40):
They don't have what was in your brain. Now it's their responsibility. That's where the perceived trouble starts, or that's where the fear creeps in. Even if you're still there, you haven't gone back to bailing hay, you're not cleaning stalls. You're still just an analytical chemist masquerading as a data platform specialist. That's what you are today. What you've done though, has reduced the total surface area of problems for the broader organization. It's just done it in a way that now it starts to feel like it's IT's problem. That's a really interesting thing for us to come to terms with.
Kevin Overstreet (41:17):
I that's always going to be the case. Like I said, I'm sort of in a weird position where anybody who's on the business side sees me as IT, and anybody who's on the IT side sees me as a renegade or a cowboy or something, depending on the solution. Eventually, you've got to build those relationships with the people in IT who can help you get that done, I think, if you want to move forward, and especially, let's face it, eventually at some point, if you're doing enough, you're going to need IT's help to get some of that stuff done.
Kevin Overstreet (41:55):
Speaking from, on my standpoint, I'm not going to be able to go out and build some SQL server solution, even though that may be what I need. Now, I may be able to figure out how to populate that once you've got it for me, but you have to build that relationship with IT. I think part of that is, is just over time, I think, as I've began to develop more complex solutions, they've become more comfortable with me because I've been kind of doing it for so long now.
Rob Collie (42:24):
There's an old blog post, it's several years old now on our site, something about the Twilight Zone, where people who work for our company talk about how they'd found themselves in a similar spot. They didn't really belong to either world. The business viewed you as IT, IT viewed you as renegades. What I view you as is the future. This is where it happens. What you're talking about, where you're gaining acceptance over time from IT. You're seeking and increasingly winning their support. That's where things are headed.
Rob Collie (43:04):
You, off on your own, building these solutions without any IT visibility or any it support, that's bad. But the answer to that isn't to have you not doing it. Having you not doing it is worse. The right answer, in my experience, is that it needs to recognize you, people like you as their greatest ally, the ally they've never had. It's like having a bigger organization. There's more IT people out there. They're not going to get headcount to go and like triple the size of their IT org. But if they embrace people such as yourself, you're not exactly dime a dozen, but there's enough of you out there in the business.
Rob Collie (43:52):
If you were all embraced and sort of deputized and treated as ambassadors between the business and IT, IT will have a much greater capability, not of just to play defense, like they typically are required to, they can play offense with your help. They can be part of advancing the business goals, and not just keeping the lights on. It is really encouraging to hear that, I mean, you work for a really big company, and really big companies are the places where this sort of change happens the slowest. So, it's really encouraging to hear that it might not be like overnight. I think that's a really positive thing.
Kevin Overstreet (44:27):
I think so. I mean, I think that one of the things that helped me be successful is the fact that I was familiar with the processes and data that I was trying to work on. You were talking earlier about, had I ever considered in consulting work. I have to get in and sort of understand the data and the processes and what they're doing a little bit. I think there's a difference between building something from just a simple set of requirements that maybe somebody in IT has put together versus having an IT sort of technology oriented business person in there to help translate that into, okay, that's what this really means though.
Kevin Overstreet (45:14):
Because I think we've all been through those things where people go off and they build a system or they build a dashboard, and they come back and technically we've met all the requirements, but that's just not what we had in mind, or whatever it is.
Rob Collie (45:27):
Well, I mean, even if the business were able to, so this is the problem with the requirements gathering process. This is the problem with waterfall oriented business intelligence. It's super fundamental and it needs to go away. If the business were able to, in a reasonable timeframe, collect and convey their requirements, in a lossless form that was then transmitted to IT and understood without noise, without misinterpretation, without loss, and then implemented to that specification, first of all, that'd be the first time in human history that, that had ever happened once.
Rob Collie (46:14):
It just has never, ever gone down like that. It always takes forever. It's always littered with omissions. It's always littered with misunderstandings and misrepresentations. But even if you got there, as soon as the business saw exactly what they wanted, they would go, oh, you know what? We need something different. We didn't know better. This is why we've come around at P3 to the saying that human beings do not know what they need until they have seen what they've asked for.
Rob Collie (46:49):
The old tools were just so slow. It just didn't make sense. As a business stakeholder, you would never sit in the same room as someone who was developing like an old school ETL process to power a data warehouse that someday might have an analytical model built over it, that someday would put its first dot on a chart. You would never sit there and watch it. But today's tools move so fast that you can actually sit with the person who's building it and you can develop it, and you can just get started.
Rob Collie (47:23):
You'll find yourself, even after like the first couple of days, in a place that you ... It sounds like an exaggeration. It sounds too good to be true, but you can find yourself, after a couple of days, in a place that it would've taken you six or seven months to get to. By the time six or seven months have elapsed, the original need is already evolving, people are exhausted. They want to give up. They don't want to keep on it. It's not even a matter of like a couple of days versus six or seven months. It's a difference of we got somewhere versus we didn't at all ever.
Rob Collie (47:57):
That's a huge change. And boy, is the world slow to wake up to this change. You can deliver the technology all at once that makes this possible. It's those people again, isn't it? People take a long time to trust that the rules have changed.
Kevin Overstreet (48:14):
Yeah. I think that a lot of times people are locked into all of these old tools that they're comfortable with, that they just don't even know what's even possible, and that's going in and trying to explain what's possible, doesn't really work, so I think you have to give them something to react against. Like you said, give them what they've asked for.
Rob Collie (48:37):
We'd be remiss if we didn't close with the story of how we first cross paths. There's an old, and it's actually, it's just a truth, which is that the things that are hardest one are the things that we end up valuing the most. I think your journey down this path started with an accidental psychological operation committed by the universe against you.
Kevin Overstreet (49:02):
It did. Not long after I discovered Power Pivot, it was probably three or four months, so when I discovered Power Pivot, I discovered the blog. That was when I saw the training class, so I was like, going to go to the training class. I went through all the effort to convince everybody that this training was going to be hugely beneficial to me. It was in February, and I believe it was 2012, and so I had had to go from Indianapolis to Cleveland at the time. I left Indianapolis, and it was snowing, and by the time I was five miles outside of Indianapolis, I was right in the middle of what we now know as the Ground Hog day blizzard with 40 inches of snow across 74 in Cincinnati.
Kevin Overstreet (49:55):
I was driving the most appropriate vehicle, which was a 2010 Honda Civic Si hatchback. You can look that up. I basically was driving like a snowmobile. That was it. I fought my way through the 40 inches of snow and was now headed north towards Cleveland, when I started to notice that my lights appeared to be dimming. Then I realized that I'd had trouble with my alternator, but that had kind of cleared itself up.
Kevin Overstreet (50:29):
But at this point, I thought I was having alternator problems again, so the first thing I did was turned off the lights, turned off the heat. I got on the phone, called my wife and said, if we haven't joined AAA, do that now. So, I drove about 60 miles in complete darkness through what was left of the ice and snow to make it to a quality inn outside of Cleveland. At the time, I was coaching softball and I had like a training bat.
Kevin Overstreet (50:59):
It was about a half an inch around aluminum ride that was three inches long. While the car was running, opened the hood, down in the engine and start tapping the alternator to try to get it to kick back in. And all of a sudden, I hear the car rev up, alternator starts charging again. I jump in the car and turn on the heat. Because it'd been zero the entire way there. Finally made it to the hotel that night, went through the two days of Power Pivot training. At the time, I talked to Rob and I said, I just don't know. I don't know where I'm at.
Kevin Overstreet (51:37):
I asked him one question, and he said, "You're way down the rabbit hole." That was kind of the start of my journey on Power Pivot and everything. Yeah, what should have been about a three or four hour trip ended up taking about nine hours through 40 inches of snow and complete darkness with no alternator in the basically a little tiny sled.
Rob Collie (52:04):
Yeah. I mean, I don't even know where the alternator is in my car. I suppose I used to know. I mean, it's probably the thing that the wires come out of, right? But I wouldn't think to tap it. This is some real MacGyver stuff here.
Thomas LaRock (52:18):
Roll up your sleeves and get the job done.
Rob Collie (52:20):
Yeah. See a problem, fix a problem. What's the big deal? It's the Overstreet way.
Kevin Overstreet (52:26):
It is. I mean, it's probably not the safest way. There was multiple fan belts and fans and all the things spinning around that probably could have flung the ... Became a flying death rod.
Rob Collie (52:41):
I'm imagining you timing the fan blade. I got to get the bat in between the fan blades as it's spinning at 3,600 RPM. You're like, one Mississippi, two Mississippi.
Kevin Overstreet (52:54):
Yeah. I was reminded of the times when I was a kid and my dad would be, want you to put your hands somewhere and go, "Here, hold this." One time we had the axle broke off of a trailer and he wanted me to get underneath it and hold it up while he chained it up with a piece of chain that we had gotten by calling a trucker on the CB and he had stopped and given us a scrap piece of chain that he had. So, we were going to haul the horse into the track on three wheels. Well, we ended ... We did haul the horse in on three wheels with the axle chained up with a scrap piece of chain from a trucker, and the horse in that trailer would eventually become a world champion.
Rob Collie (53:38):
I mean, it's really just a story, a story as old as time, isn't it? It's a classic archetype. Let it be said that data people are not all cut from a single mold and it's never boring, is it?
Kevin Overstreet (53:53):
No.
Rob Collie (53:54):
And Kevin, thank you so much for being on the show. I know I've enjoyed it immensely. I hope everyone else does as well. We'll be sure to catch up soon.
Kevin Overstreet (54:02):
Well, thank you guys for having me. I've enjoyed it a lot.
Rob Collie (54:05):
We might have to have you on again. I just don't think that this is the last of Kevin Overstreet on Raw Data by P3.
Kevin Overstreet (54:11):
We could talk about all the different times I should have used data to prevent near death experiences on my farm or something maybe.
Rob Collie (54:19):
Yeah. The 11 times Kevin almost died if only he'd had data,
Kevin Overstreet (54:25):
That's it.
Rob Collie (54:25):
All right. Well, I'm glad you survived all of those occasions to make it to this point.
Kevin Overstreet (54:31):
I am too.
Rob Collie (54:32):
All right. Well, thanks again.
Kevin Overstreet (54:33):
All right. Thanks. Cheers.
Announcer (54:35):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 Podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show, email lukep, L-U-K-E-P, @powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Hello fellow Americans! It's the day after the election, and who better to have on than sports and analytics journalist Michael Salfino from FiveThirtyEight, The Athletic, and The Independent. Data and politics and a little sports mixed in for good measure!
Every guest on Raw Data By P3 has been top-notch, but we haven't yet had a Doctor on...until now! Dr. Wayne Winston is Professor Emeritus of Decision Sciences at the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University, he's won numerous teaching awards, is a prolific writer, has consulted the NBA's New York Knicks and the Dallas Mavericks, and he's a 2 time Jeopardy winner! He's a highly entertaining and intelligent guest and we're honored to present this episode of Raw Data By P3 with Dr. Wayne Winston Click Here to check out Dr. Winston's book-Analytics Stories: Using Data to Make Good Things Happen Episode Timeline:
- 2:00 - Wayne's history and impressive pedigree
- 3:16 - Wayne makes a bold statement about a famous former student
- 4:41 - JRR Tolkien comes up in a random and interesting way
- 8:26 - The Jeff Sagarin connection
- 9:49 - Some great forecasting stories
- 13:33 - Random events and coincidence that lead you to where you are now
- 17:40 - The word is finally mentioned...Excel! And the subsequent Excel discussion
- 25:07 - Tenure process in a University, and how academics are rated
- 34:16 - Wayne's trips to Microsoft, and how he affected the Excel team
- 39:22 - Wayne's amazing new book-Analytics Stories: Using Data to Make Good Things Happen
- 45:24 - Does High School math need a revamping?
- 50:54 - Bitcoin-Is it legitimate?
- 55:10 - The Gender Gap in STEM Fields
- 1:06:04 - Excel VS Python
- 1:18:07 - Analytics In Sports
- 1:28:13 - The Election and Politics, and a prediction!
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello friends. Boy, do we have a real treat for you today because we are welcoming the Wayne Winston to the show. Now Wayne has shaped and changed many, many, many lives. He's essentially the Excel Yoda figure at the Indiana University Kelley School of Business. His students even include like back in the day, Mark Cuban. The tagline for our podcast here is "Data with the human element", and I don't think anyone could really personify that more than Wayne. An amazing personality, a great guy, and there's no doubt that he's up to his eyeballs in data and data techniques all day, every day. He crunches data on really an amazing range of topics from sports to politics, to social justice. He's always bringing it back to the people involved and how it affects them. And the man's got a freaking Wikipedia page for crying out loud. So no more to delay, let's get after it
Announcer (00:00:56):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:00):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:18):
Welcome to the show, Wayne Winston. I am over the moon, seriously, over the moon about having you on the show.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:01:27):
Thanks Rob. Well, you guys have done wonders for the world with Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:01:31):
Well, I appreciate that and knowing what I was going to be up against today... what we were going to be up against today, I drank even more coffee than usual. I knew I needed more to do battle with the great Wayne.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:01:44):
Oh, thanks.
Rob Collie (00:01:45):
So Wayne, let's just start off. I met you a long time ago when I was still at Microsoft. It's probably like-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:01:51):
Early 2000s.
Rob Collie (00:01:52):
Yeah, probably like 2004, 2005. You wear a number of hats in your professional life. Why don't you just take a moment and give us a quick summary?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:02:01):
Okay. So I went to MIT undergrad. I don't want to say what year. Studied math. Then I went to Yale, studied Operations Research Management Science, never took a business course in my life. And then I got the only job I've really ever had, teaching quant methods in the Indiana Kelley School of Business, which is ranked in the top 10 in the country now and it's a very good school. Had a great department. Wonderful people who sort of mentored me through life because I was pretty immature when I came here, and then I met my wife here. It's been great. And so basically I've gotten consulting jobs. Like I got asked to teach Microsoft Enhanced, which Rob is talking about through [Jennifer Skoog 00:02:39], and came out there probably about... for 10 years, probably once a month to teach Microsoft Enhanced. Went out there in 2018, but then I got luckily asked to write a book on Excel by Microsoft press Alex Blanton. I don't know if Rob knows him.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:02:55):
Then I was asked to write a book for Microsoft Press on Excel, which has sold very well and I look on Amazon now and Rob's book is number four on Amazon in Excel books and I'm number six, but some days I beat him. Okay. And I have the Kindle version and I have my old Excel book, but that's really helped me a lot. I've gone to a lot of companies besides Microsoft to teach Excel, and then I was fortunate enough to have Mark Cuban in my class in 1981, who everybody knows from Shark Tank, and I'll predict will run for president in 2024.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:03:26):
He's real interested in rank choice voting as an alternative to the two-party system and I think he had actually a podcast of his own on it yesterday. He almost ran this year. I think he just didn't have the time to get on the ballot. And so basically Mark was in my class. He bought the Mavericks. My family went down to see a Pacer Mavericks game, because my son is a big Indiana Pacers fan. He recognized me in the arena and he said, "Wayne, do you have any way to make the Mavericks better?". So my best friend from MIT, Jeff Sagarin, who's the USA Today computer rater, we collaborated on rating teams in lineups. And so we got into the sports analytics area and then I wrote a book, "Mathletics" on math and sports, and I won two games on Jeopardy!.
Rob Collie (00:04:09):
We didn't know that. Luke looked that up. He was researching you yesterday.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:04:13):
I wanted to get on Jeopardy! from the time I was in seventh grade, and so if I had lost, I may not have come home. And the guy who was on last week said he used data mining to study for Jeopardy!. Now he won one game and then he got slaughtered, but I mean he said he developed word clouds like on King Solomon. If certain words appear in a Jeopardy! clue, he would know the answer is King Solomon. And so I thought that was very interesting, using text mining.
Rob Collie (00:04:41):
So often things get judged prematurely by their first outing.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:04:46):
That's true.
Rob Collie (00:04:46):
A good idea doesn't always necessarily succeed its first time out. I'm always reminded... And this is really nerdy, but that's what we do. In The Silmarillion, the prequels to the Lord of the Rings, written by Tolkien, the first dragon gets introduced after it was born and it goes out into combat, but its skin isn't thick enough yet and it takes a bunch of arrows and it retreats into the mountain and it's forgotten for a long time. Like for centuries, but centuries later it comes back, and now it's ready, and now it's a world beater. There's so many things like that, I think, in life.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:05:20):
That's a great analogy and I bet Tolkien planned that out.
Rob Collie (00:05:25):
Tolkien was something else. I mean, you understand the-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:05:28):
Yeah, I haven't read those books. I need to.
Rob Collie (00:05:29):
Tolkien... We're already way off into the weeds, but I love it. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the Rings as a criticism of the industrial revolution.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:05:39):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Rob Collie (00:05:41):
There's a whole subtext to the Lord of the Rings that I wasn't aware of as a kid where... Like he basically lived in the Shire growing up, pre-industrial revolution. He lived in an idyllic farming and wooded community, and then the industrial revolution came through and cut down all of the trees and burned them for fuel for the factories and things like that. And so this is what Sauron represents. The ring represents technology and the corrupting power of technology. When you watch the movies or read the books with that in mind, it just makes it... To me, it's just so much more emotional.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:06:18):
Oh, that's interesting. You should get a PhD in literature.
Rob Collie (00:06:20):
Yeah, well. There are people who get Elvish tattoos. Elvish is a real language.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:06:26):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:06:26):
Like they're fully developed bilinguist. Tolkien was sort of next to none in world building, but-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:06:33):
Well, I'll have to watch the movies at least. I haven't even done that.
Thomas LaRock (00:06:35):
Yeah. So Wayne, first of all, I'm a huge fan.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:06:39):
Oh, thanks.
Thomas LaRock (00:06:39):
And one of the highlights in my life is at the first business analytics conference in San Jose years ago, I got to meet you because I was fawning over you to Rob. I'm like, "Rob, Wayne Winston's here", and Rob looks at me and goes, "Oh, you want to meet him?". I'm like, "You know Wade?".
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:06:56):
Well, I appreciate like that.
Thomas LaRock (00:06:58):
Yeah. So we had a quick little chat, the three of us, and I'm a huge fan, but I just wanted to call out something. You said teaching at IU is the only job you've had, but I knew you because of the work you were doing for the Bucks and the Knicks. So you've had more than one job.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:07:13):
Oh yeah, we did work for the Knicks too. Not the Bucks, but I guess I should be really proud we worked for the Knicks after the Mavericks. I forgot to mention that, because the only... Are any of you guys from New York? I don't know. But the Knicks won 54 games the year we worked for them. That's the most games they've won in 30 years because they followed our lineup advice. But I mean, I guess I thought more about the Maverick stuff, but yeah, we did a tiny bit of work for the Sonics, who were run by Wally Walker, who basically was a Goldman Sachs alum. And then since you guys have Seattle connections probably... Some of you. Rob does. When they sold the team and moved it to OKC, I was actually in Wally Walker's office when Howard Schultz came in to tell Wally they were selling the team to OKC.
Rob Collie (00:07:58):
Wow.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:07:58):
And then knew they were going to go there and OKC supported, but the NBA owes Seattle a team.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:04):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:08:04):
Yeah.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:08:05):
And Ballmer now owns the Clippers and he fires everybody left and right, but that's different.
Rob Collie (00:08:10):
Yeah. That is different.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:08:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:08:12):
Yeah, well I plan to bring Ballmer up, but-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:08:14):
Oh yeah, I'd be interested.
Rob Collie (00:08:16):
We'll save that for a little bit. One of the things we say from time to time on here is, "Let's make sure we slow cook this meal". A lot of things came out there in a short period of time. I want to make sure we... So first of all, I had no idea that you and Sagarin were close.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:08:30):
Oh yeah. We met in the dorm at MIT, watching pro football. We watched the Jets win the Super Bowl and bonded over that. And he moved to Bloomington, to Indiana, in 1978 because he visited me and he saw there were lots of beautiful tall women and that convinced him he should move to Bloomington.
Rob Collie (00:08:48):
The analytics indicated he should move.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:08:49):
I don't think it was analytics.
Thomas LaRock (00:08:49):
I don't think it was analytics.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:08:55):
But he's never got married and I found a wonderful wife here, so I was lucky.
Rob Collie (00:08:59):
Oh, there you go. There you go. Because yeah I mean, I remember reading Sagarin in the newspaper when-
Thomas LaRock (00:09:06):
Same. USA Today.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:09:06):
Yeah. He's still in USA Today.
Rob Collie (00:09:08):
Yeah. When newspaper was really a thing, back when that was like the sports content that I would digest. It wasn't on internet. There was already a Sagarin. That's so cool.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:09:17):
Right. I mean, he's been doing it since the mid to late seventies, I would say.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:21):
But he started doing the college basketball rankings-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:09:25):
Right.
Thomas LaRock (00:09:25):
Better than... That was one of the first things I remember hearing from Sagarin. I was just so enthralled going through the formulas of how he was determining that.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:09:34):
He doesn't even let out what the formulas are, but there's a site, thepredictiontracker.com, lets you evaluate all the forecasts by all the computers-
Thomas LaRock (00:09:43):
Forecast, right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:09:43):
And he's invariably... Because that's one thing that came up a lot at Microsoft. Most companies don't know how to evaluate their forecast and this is a very... I'm sure Power BI helps with that. So I remember, if I can say one great story from Microsoft about that. I guess I shouldn't mention the person's name, but he was a controller at Microsoft and basically, so I was teaching about bias and forecasting. That you forecast too high or too low. So I would ask the finance people who Rob would know, "Do you think marketing forecast too high for sales?", and they would say yes. So I'd say, "How do you correct for that?", and the controller said, "We divide by 10". Which is hilarious, but I use that in class all the time when we talk about forecasting because I mean, forecasting is... Accuracy is important, but like Las Vegas, I did a study for my book that basically, when Las Vegas says a team will win by 10, they don't win by 10, but on average they win by 10.
Rob Collie (00:10:40):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:10:41):
So that's unbiased, and so they couldn't stay in business if they weren't unbiased.
Rob Collie (00:10:45):
That's right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:10:46):
And so basically... But that's the best example of bias in forecasting when the controller... Off the air, I can tell Rob the person's name.
Rob Collie (00:10:53):
Okay.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:10:54):
But basically they would divide by... he said, "Just divide by 10", and the room cracked up because finance's job is to be the bean counters and make sure that basically what you're putting out on the numbers are reasonable forecast. Unbiased and accurate. As accurate as you can be. That's a very important thing that I teach. Forecasting is a very important skill.
Rob Collie (00:11:16):
I've got a forecasting bias story for you.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:11:18):
Okay, good.
Rob Collie (00:11:19):
Forecast is really important in our business because we move a lot faster. We burn through projects a lot faster than the traditional BI firm. We just move at a much faster tempo, which means we have a lot more moving pieces to our business than an average BI firm. Maybe even 10 times as many moving parts. And so we're not parking people for six months at a time on a single project because we finish projects fast. This actually makes it difficult to keep utilization high. It makes it difficult to know how much money is going to be going in or out two months in the future. And one of the inputs to this is that each consultant forecasts [crosstalk 00:11:57] how much of their work they're going to be doing over the next n-weeks.
Rob Collie (00:12:01):
Well, the subtitle of this podcast is "Data with the human element", and this is a perfect example of the blending of the two. Our forecast for a long time now actually, has been calculating the inherent bias in each consultant's forecast historically, and correcting for it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:12:21):
Oh exactly.
Rob Collie (00:12:22):
On a per consultant basis, right? Because some are optimistic. Some are pessimistic. Some are more dead on. And rather than fight that... Of course we feedback and we get better at forecasting and all of that, right? But at the same time, it's like belt and suspenders. Rather than deny the fact that humans are imperfect at this, we just correct for it on a per consultant basis.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:12:42):
No, that's great. And you could build Montecarlo into that because the forecast... And if you want to know the chance your revenue in the next two months will be between X and Y, you could build Montecarlo based on the accuracy of these consultants.
Rob Collie (00:12:56):
Yeah, but that involves knowing the probability that they're right, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:00):
Well, I bet if you can get the forecast error model that is normal, you could do it.
Rob Collie (00:13:04):
We need to talk about that.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:04):
Yeah. We'll talk about that. Yeah. I'll give you my phone number when we get off and you can call me anytime.
Rob Collie (00:13:09):
Aw yeah. We're going to make beautiful music together.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:12):
Oh, I'd love that. Especially since you're only an hour and a half away.
Rob Collie (00:13:16):
I know. I've only lived here now for five years and we haven't gotten together.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:20):
Well, I thought you were in Cincinnati. I guess I lost track.
Rob Collie (00:13:22):
Oh yeah. I was in Cincinnati. That's why we haven't gotten together. No, I've been in Indiana.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:26):
Well, I think you improved by coming to Indiana... Carmel.
Rob Collie (00:13:30):
There you go. So you mentioned a couple of things earlier as well, like math at MIT. That's a pretty tall hill, and then Operations Research at Yale, yeah?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:39):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:13:40):
And then right after that, you said something to the effect of how grateful you were to have come to IU, because it was a place where you could grow up essentially.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:13:48):
Yeah, it was just great.
Rob Collie (00:13:49):
I bet you didn't know this... Of course you wouldn't, but as I was finishing my undergraduate degree at Vanderbilt, I became obsessed with the idea of going to graduate school for operations research. That's what I was going to do. I don't think I knew what it was really. I still don't really know what operations research is or was, but it just seemed like it was right in my wheelhouse of things that I found stimulating, is what it really did. I just sort of got like an emotional feeling from it. I ended up skipping graduate school because I got to the front of the line to take the GRE as a walk-in standby. I got to the front of the line and my checkbook... I was out of checks and I took that as a sign. I was like, "Oh, and Florida's playing Auburn on TV right now. I'm going to just... This wasn't meant to be". So I just decided to go get a job at Microsoft instead.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:14:38):
Well I think that probably turned out okay.
Rob Collie (00:14:41):
It did, but it involved a lot of what you said as well, which is like, I had no idea how much immaturity needed to be beaten out of me.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:14:50):
Well, I was just a real introvert and I mean, my department was just a great bunch of people.
Rob Collie (00:14:55):
You don't strike me as terribly introverted, but I understand what that means. That word has a lot of-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:14:59):
No, I... I could go into deep details about that, but I mean, I was... MIT, I was really introverted. Yale, I was really introverted, but then the head of my department was the greatest person I've ever met. [Vic Cabot 00:15:11], who you probably don't know, but do you know the Princess Diaries?
Rob Collie (00:15:14):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:15:15):
His daughter wrote them, but he died tragically of cancer in 1994. But he was so funny. He came to the office, he was a little bit drunk sometimes. He would tell the secretary's dirty jokes. He'd come in painter's pants or shorts and he would teach his class in them. So we had this great... I really described our department as "summer camper adults". And then the first year Indiana won the national championship, it was undefeated in basketball, and nobody's been undefeated since.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:15:45):
So I mean, it was just such a great place, and being unmarried and being a professor was really good to be at a school like Indiana. I lucked out. I guess my first choice was to get a job at Cornell, but they didn't pick me. I had a bad back at the time I got recruited, but I mean, I was so... In all your lives, there's karma. There's just random events that, like meeting your spouse or whoever is important to you, it's totally luck, or whatever you want to call it. Design. I think about it, if I hadn't gone to MIT, I wouldn't have met Jeff. If I hadn't gone to Indie... And I wanted to go to Princeton, but they didn't let me in because I'm from New Jersey. And so basically I wouldn't have met Jeff and wouldn't have got into sports.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:16:33):
Hadn't gotten into Indiana, I wouldn't have met my wife. And honestly, no other department would I have had such a good time as with the people that were here and do well in my profession. A lot of things are not in our control.
Rob Collie (00:16:47):
That's right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:16:47):
Some things are. Guy named Paul Oster writes books about novels about the role of coincidence in life. In every novel it's about coincidence. I mean, the whole plot is based on, "If I was 10 minutes earlier to this place, my life would've been different". All sorts of crazy things like that, but back to the subject, I guess. But go ahead.
Rob Collie (00:17:07):
No, this is what we do on this show. So we [crosstalk 00:17:10].
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:17:10):
No, this is great.
Rob Collie (00:17:11):
You're fitting right in.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:17:12):
You're like the opposite... I do these webinars for Becker CPA review and if I mention anything, like I mentioned we should have a third party or rank choice voting, I get comments saying, "He shouldn't talk about that".
Rob Collie (00:17:27):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Too human, too authentic. We need to drain that. We need to drain that out.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:17:31):
No, I mean that's what the world needs more than ever.
Rob Collie (00:17:34):
And we're going to get to that, man.
Thomas LaRock (00:17:35):
I got a bunch of questions.
Rob Collie (00:17:36):
Let's finish laying the foundation here. So we haven't even really said the word yet. Excel.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:17:42):
[crosstalk 00:17:42]. Right.
Rob Collie (00:17:42):
When people ask me who you are, one of the first things I say is that... I don't know if you agree with this, but I say like, "If there's a Yoda figure for the spreadsheet arts at IU, it is Wayne".
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:17:54):
Well at IU, that would be true.
Rob Collie (00:17:56):
Yeah. You get sent to Dagobah, you're going to be balancing things on your head and going into caves unarmed and all... Carrying Wayne around in a backpack, running through the swamp. That's what you're going to be doing. For the average human being... Not for the average human being listening to this podcast, but for the average human being, they would hear things like MIT math, graduate degree, and something arcane at Yale, and then they'd hear Excel and go, "what?".
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:18:26):
Oh, so okay. Yeah. That's really a good question. It's not really in the form of a question like Jeopardy!, but it's really a good question. So basically my background was totally math and operations research. For example, the simplex algorithm, which is the way you solve linear program problems. I'd say my first 15 years of teaching, we would have a manually pivot-in and pivot-out variables. Don't worry if your listeners don't know what that means, but then Lotus came out, I guess. I started using that in class the late eighties, but then in 1992, one of my students said, "You should use Excel in class". And so mainly what I would teach is simulation and optimization, and so then I started learning in Excel. I said, "Gosh". So I teach MBA, so I don't teach math people really. So I said, "I can make this so easy and fun for them using Excel".
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:19:14):
So then I would learn the optimization and simulation in Excel in 1992, and then as I got... all my teaching involved Excel, I saw I could do all the statistics in Excel, like the tables and the stat book. I always tell people the Z-tables, the normal random variable tables and the stat book, they're different in every book. It's just norm dist and norm inverse in Excel. The key to Excel is like... My wife watches the Food Channel. So Food Channel, you got to know how to mix up ingredients. So the functions are the ingredients in Excel and basically a student... Would always tell students, "Send me questions after you graduate". So one student sent me a question, I needed to learn offset. Another student sent me a question, I had to learn indirect, which I consider the two hardest functions in Excel. I don't know what you think are the most difficult functions in Excel for people to learn.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:20:03):
I'd say offset and indirect, but I don't know if you have another one. But then I would just pick up all these functions and then Microsoft would add things like "sum fs", "count fs", and things like that. Like there's people... Okay, [Walkenback 00:20:18]. He's way better at Excel than I am, okay? And Bill Jelen is better at Excel than I am a little, I'd say. But I think my strength is, if you take my knowledge of math, my knowledge of business from reading books, and my knowledge of Excel, I'm sort of near the top in all three.
Rob Collie (00:20:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:20:36):
Like using optimization in Excel. Since I came from that background in simulation, that's so easy for me because, I mean... But for other people who weren't trained with the graduate work that I had and the undergrad work that I had, they're not going to get the most out of Excel. So like optimization, I'll bet most of your listeners that they've used the Excel solver. Don't use the evolutionary solver or the GRG multi start. But honestly, you can solve 10 times more problems with GRG multi start and evolutionary than with the linear simplex solver, which is basically what everybody teaches in school. Even the top MBA programs hardly teach evolutionary, but evolutionary solver is... And I've met [Dan Folstro 00:21:22], who wrote the solver, on many occasions, and he's... I don't know if he's been on your podcast. Did you say he was?
Rob Collie (00:21:27):
Oh, he's queued up. I was going to say, he's coming up on the list very shortly.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:21:31):
So what I would say about Dan is he's the best combination in the world of math, business, Excel, and computer programming. He knows the packages that are out there, like add-ins for Excel and things like that. And he went to MIT the same time I was there. I didn't know him, but he did. And he ran for treasurer on the libertarian [inaudible 00:21:52] in Nevada. Did you know that?
Rob Collie (00:21:54):
I did not.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:21:54):
Well, you have to ask him.
Rob Collie (00:21:55):
It doesn't surprise me.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:21:56):
And they moved from California to Nevada because the taxes were too high.
Rob Collie (00:21:59):
Wow.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:22:01):
But Dan, I've got so much... because we would be in some meetings with the Excel people. Sam Savage, who's done some work on operations research, but he, Dan and I would spend a day or two there giving them our opinions on Excel and what they could do in the future. And Dan, he's like world-class, topnotch programmer, topnotch math. Really, he never took a business course. He' the right thing, but he taught himself through his clients, I think, "What does business need?", as you guys have to. You guys probably didn't take business courses, but you know business now because you work with businesses.
Rob Collie (00:22:39):
Our consulting team, they all came up working in business.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:22:43):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Rob Collie (00:22:43):
Several of them have MBAs, but that's not a requirement at all. But our team comes from the business side of the house, not really from the IT side of the house.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:22:52):
Now that actually surprises me. It makes sense.
Rob Collie (00:22:53):
I think, once you think about it, yeah, it starts to make sense, because like it's about business. It's not about the tech. We're really good at the tech.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:00):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Rob Collie (00:23:01):
I promise the listeners, we do not brief our guests on themes we want them to hit.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:06):
It's like Jeopardy!. They don't tell you the questions.
Rob Collie (00:23:09):
That's right. So a couple minutes ago you said something and I wanted to underline.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:12):
Yeah, go ahead.
Rob Collie (00:23:13):
I think it's come up even on the podcast before. Something that I believe very, very, very strongly, which is, life isn't the javelin throw life. Isn't the pole vault. Life and career is the decathlon.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:26):
Exactly. I could tell you were going for that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:23:29):
Yeah. And so you don't have to be the best shot putter or whatever. I don't even know what's in the decathlon.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:36):
That's the best way of putting it 10 events. I don't know what they are.
Rob Collie (00:23:39):
Yeah. Me neither. I mean it's a really boring thing to watch, but it's a great metaphor.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:43):
No, it really truly is. I'll use that.
Rob Collie (00:23:46):
So if you're 90th percentile at a handful of things, you are suddenly 99th percentile at the combined thing.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:23:54):
That's exactly true.
Rob Collie (00:23:56):
And I've learned that about my own life, my own career. I spent a long time struggling with the fact that I wasn't the best at anything, and then one day I suddenly just like found my-
Rob Collie (00:24:03):
The fact that I wasn't the best at anything. And then one day I suddenly just like found my niche, which was all of these things together and oh, okay. That's that's it all just kind of made sense. Finally, it's like that, that coincidence thing you were talking about, which is another huge theme for us, like, the children's series of books called Lemony Snicket's A series of Unfortunate events. But, there's a play on that, which is Lemony Snicket's series of fortunate events. And it's the path that brought you here, it's almost unbelievable how much coincidence was involved.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:24:33):
There's a new book on the evolution of life called a series of fortunate events.
Rob Collie (00:24:37):
Oh really?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:24:38):
By Sean Carol, a biologist. Do you know like the most important thing that happened, that explains why humans are here, the dinosaurs getting extinct from the Meteorite because if they were here, they would've eaten us.
Rob Collie (00:24:51):
That's probably true.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:24:52):
I never thought of that, but that's in that book.
Rob Collie (00:24:55):
The Jurassic part movies show us this very clearly, don't they?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:25:00):
Yeah. The guy of the toilet.
Rob Collie (00:25:03):
Whatever, that's how the last human would've died. Right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:25:07):
So one comment on academia on what Rob said, which I think was totally brilliant. To get tenure in universities now you need an area that you can publish in and you almost have to be a specialist in something that nobody cares about basically. So like a generalist would have trouble getting tenure. I mean really, because there are some exceptions to the rule, some brilliant people who can publish in master many fields, but I can tell you, in most universities, people have one narrow area, they get their five or 10 articles on something maybe a couple hundred people care about, but that'll get them tenure. But, it's really hard. I got enough articles for tenure, I did fine with that. I'm not a role class publish one guy I went to school with at Yale.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:25:57):
Paul Zipkin was the most cited business author because he had some really good inventory papers. But Inventory was his thing and basically also music. He liked to play music, but basically most people and another person I went to school with a Yale, her thing was queuing theory, waiting lines. I always have liked to read a lot. I'll devour books on now, I'm teaching this class on analytics. And so we're going to talk about the math of COVID after Thanksgiving, when we have to do Zoom. And then the last week we're going to talk about the mathematics or the empirical evidence on racial injustice. I read three or four books on that. Then I go to the original.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:26:37):
If you work at a university, you can get access to any journal, I can find that source. I can [inaudible 00:26:43] know enough math. I can read the source articles for these books on racial injustice and go back and say, is this study a good study? Does it make sense? And so I gave them homework problems on COVID where they had to say, is this treatment better than the other treatment based on the numbers in the original study. So, it's knowing how to use the tools in your arsenal. If you have a good basic brain and you have a good basic set of knowledge in several areas, then it's up to you to go out and just learn the other stuff, which I think you three have done, because you have to, because you're working for companies that do everything.
Rob Collie (00:27:19):
That's right. So something Tom and I have talked about a lot is Imposter syndrome. There's something about the way you describe coming up that made me wonder, did you wrestle with Imposter syndrome sort of in the earliest phases of your career? Do you, are you familiar with, I was going to ask you. Okay. So imposter syndrome is something that tends to afflict, intelligent people with integrity, which is they think of themselves as a fraud. When they start to achieve like those first glimmers of success, they don't feel like it's deserved. They feel like maybe they aren't good enough. Does this sound familiar to you? Maybe, you're like the most interesting man in the world. And you're like, I don't understand what an uncomfortable moment would feel like Rob, I'm sorry. I can't help you.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:28:02):
No, I mean, I think I never had that problem because I always had like a low opinion of myself.
Rob Collie (00:28:07):
You always had imposter syndrome is what you [crosstalk 00:28:11]
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:28:11):
I think it comes to my life from something different that I probably shouldn't talk about. I never had a high opinion of myself when I look back at what I accomplished in the business school compared to the other people there. I think my body of work probably had more influence. I would say now to a wider group than the people. Almost, not everybody. There's a couple than almost everybody at the business school. You don't get recognized for writing books that are impactful in the business school. They don't care. They really don't. They care a little more. Now what we have in academia is in every field, we have A journals and A minus journals and nothing below that matters. So if you're an economist, you want to get an econometric or journal political economy. If you're an Operations researcher, get an operations researcher management, science, and there's a point system.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:28:58):
And literally, they can deny it all they want. But basically if you've got four articles in econometric and you're an economist, you're great. Even of those articles, if they got in, they must have some impact, but there's some articles in those journals that have world shaking impact like pricing options. In 1970, the black-scholes option pricing model was in journal political economy and they won the noble prize. It's a black died and you can't win when you die. So he should haunt Stockholm because he should have won because he was the smartest of the people. In Indiana, we had a guy who was a genius, Jack mu. He was really an introvert. He passed away unfortunately a couple years ago, but there's a thing in economics called rational expectations. And it had a huge impact on economics. You have to factor in how the people will sort of know what's going on.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:29:54):
So he invented that and got into Econometrica, but he never went to conferences. He wasn't outgoing and he was very humble. But then 10 years later, Robert Lucas at the University of Chicago wins the noble prize for rational expectations. But Jack invented it. He should have shared in the prize. There are articles on this. And so, his feild was Operations management, which has nothing to do with economics really. And so it's strange how people get rated in academia. In business, if you guys weren't good, you wouldn't have food on the table. I mean, that's the way, you have to deliver. But I mean, there are articles.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:30:35):
We have blind referee, but there are a lot of articles that, they're mathematical gymnastics, but do they do anything for the world? Like economists are terrible forecasters. If you look at the forecast of economists one year out, just predicting next year's GMP changes by last year's GMP is better than the best economic model. They have all these papers on how out of forecasts in economics, but the forecasts are crummy. They get their published, but are they good papers since none of this stuff works.
Rob Collie (00:31:07):
So many things to react to really quickly. First of all, you hear that folks? No one will admit it, but there's a point system behind the scenes for publishing.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:15):
I Think get them drunk. They'll admit it.
Rob Collie (00:31:17):
Okay. But that tells me, somewhere there's a PivotTable. That's deciding whether people get tenured or not.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:23):
It's the Citation list, which I've never been able to find. That rational expectations paper probably had thousands of sites. So when you're up for tenure, they'll look up the site. If a tree falls in a forest or noise, if your paper got in the best journal, like nobody ever cited it, then basically they'll think less of it. So there's these citation indexes that are important. Like my books get a lot more sites than my articles. I thought I've never figured exactly how to go to that citation index question.
Thomas LaRock (00:31:52):
It just sounds like it's, backlinks, it's just webpages and back links. It's like Wikipedia.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:31:57):
It's like a search [inaudible 00:32:00].
Rob Collie (00:31:59):
Like SEO.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:32:00):
It probably is like that. I've never looked up the math behind it, but I think that's got to be what's behind the citation. It's got to be. And that's a solver model really.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:10):
I'm not sure that's the right way to do it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:32:12):
What would you change?
Thomas LaRock (00:32:14):
Well, just because something is popular, doesn't actually mean that it's good or accurate.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:32:19):
No, that's true. I guess if the reviewing process is pretty strict, they'll find flaw. But that's the thing if you got in the best journal and somebody finds a flaw later, it probably won't hurt you in your tenure. There are some articles on racial justice like that, where they were talking about, okay, stop and frisk in New York. So the first couple articles would say that wasn't racially biased. And then somebody came out with a new article this year saying the previous article was wrong. But I bet the guy who wrote the previous article, who actually happens to be a black economist at Harvard, basically he'll still get credit for that article. You make a very good point, because you might have been cited because your article was wrong. I didn't think of that since I was never on a promotion and tenured committee.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:33:05):
I avoided every administrative job as long as in my career they asked me to be MBA chair. And I said, look at my office, you don't want me running the program because I am a slob. That got me out that job. Because, I knew I was really good at teaching, although I wasn't at first, but Excel made me good at teaching because I have terrible handwriting. As soon as I saw what Excel could do, I would have a mind meld with that like Spock and I could just see, I developed courses on spread marketing, spreadsheet finance, spreadsheet supply chain and spreadsheet sports. I got so sick of seeing these books that didn't do the stuff in Excel and made them use the tables in the back of the book. I couldn't stand that. It was so stupid
Thomas LaRock (00:33:49):
Look, at some point there Wayne said I was right. So can we get that to a sound bite? Because, I'm putting that on my blog.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:33:56):
Thanks. You're absolutely right. Because, those sites could be that your paper was junk.
Rob Collie (00:34:01):
He just did it twice.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:34:04):
I really think you're right on that. That's really good.
Rob Collie (00:34:07):
Three times he said you're right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:34:10):
No, I had never thought of that, which I'm ashamed of.
Rob Collie (00:34:12):
There's still a couple pieces of background I want to fill in. We also talked about and where you and I first met was when you were out at Microsoft on one of your many ongoing trips, your visits to teach Excel to Microsoft.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:34:30):
Old to new castle-
Rob Collie (00:34:31):
Which is awesome. You said something else as well, which is like, you know how you learned Excel over time? Like the students would send you another challenge and that would force you to learn indirect, or offset or something like that. You definitely need some education, but the way you just described it, that incremental climb is even more important. That is really the path to learning it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:34:52):
Exactly. To learn anything-
Rob Collie (00:34:53):
That incremental journey is crucial to so many things. It's shocking to me, like how much of a culture of techniques can get developed at a particular organization. I would spend a lot of time on the Excel team, when I was working on Excel. We would need to do customer visits to see how people were using it and try to research what we could do to improve it. And all of that.
Rob Collie (00:35:15):
Well the most convenient customers were our own finance department right at Microsoft. So, we would visit our own finance department to learn how to improve Excel while you were on the other end, teaching them Excel. And so there's sort of like this loop that was forming there. And then you come talk to us separately as a team, in the evenings, after you were done to teaching our finance team, just give an example of how crazy this gets. There was a way that Microsoft finance would use the get pivot data function.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:35:45):
Oh yeah, which is a great function.
Rob Collie (00:35:48):
A great function. You don't really need it anymore because [crosstalk 00:35:50] of what you did. At the time, anyway, it was awesome. But they had this trick that they almost like hacked GETPIVOTDATA. They would change some of the hard coded references that get Pivot data would give you on click to sell references to relative.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:06):
That's what I do. Yeah. I do that when talking.
Rob Collie (00:36:07):
Okay, so you taught them this. All right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:08):
I'm not going to say that. I taught them that.
Rob Collie (00:36:13):
I bet you did. [crosstalk 00:36:14]
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:14):
Wow. That makes me really happy.
Rob Collie (00:36:16):
Okay. So this influenced a lot of our thinking in terms of what we did with those features going forward, because we're like, oh my God, we cannot break that. Because, people are using that. We had no idea. And I learned later that it was only Microsoft finance doing this. When I talked to bill Jelen about this technique is if it was just common knowledge, right? Bill's like what?
Thomas LaRock (00:36:38):
He put it in his book. I know.
Rob Collie (00:36:39):
And then he went and looked at, it's like, oh my God, that's amazing. The thing is, bill teaches. I think he's retired from this now. But he teaches seminar. He tons of seminars all over the country, accountants. And he had never once run into this. Not once.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:52):
That surprised me, that he didn't, put in his newer books and we borrow from each other's books. So I don't know.
Rob Collie (00:36:58):
Of course.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:36:59):
I get things from his books and like indirect with range names. I put that in my book and people took that. You make up your own examples. That's a really great example because, if you're not using Power Pivot, I'd say almost nobody who's in business knows that get pivot data, you can take the data out of a PivotTable, make it look at the way you want for reports and charts. And it's easy. You're right, you put one formula and a cell and then you put in row and dollar sign the column and just copy it across.
Rob Collie (00:37:35):
That's right. Bill's jaw dropped.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:37:38):
I'm glad to know that. I met him at a conference. He's a really great guy.
Rob Collie (00:37:43):
Well, we're going to have him on too. There needs to be some crossover episodes where we get some of these people together.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:37:48):
Yeah. I'm glad to Be on any time. It's my schedule.
Rob Collie (00:37:51):
In some sense, we're almost assembling our cast of characters in the early guy, like Lord of the rings. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, and now we're going to introduce yeah. It's like when they discover a particular pod of whales, like killer whales, in a particular corner of the world, that's learned some new behavior and they're teaching their kids how to run up through the shallows and grab things off of land, you know? And no one else in the world does this. There's some habits that develop in particular organizations around Excel. I just thought it doesn't surprise me, that was something that you were teaching, but I wanted to connect those dots for you. Because, I've been haunted by that for a long time.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:38:27):
I'm not sure if it was me who did that. Actually, I came up with the idea of using that. Of course, I would teach Cisco finance because Jennifer and Microsoft would recommend me to Cisco. And basically somebody said, I get this number out of a PivotTable, but then I add a new country, like I rack to the PivotTable and then I don't get the right number. Then I learn, GETPIVOTDATA. And basically I said, well you need to copy, GETPIVOTDATA around. Across and down.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:56):
Well, we solved that problem in 2003 when we removed a rock from the PivotTable.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:38:59):
Okay. No, that's probably when the [inaudible 00:39:06]was.
Rob Collie (00:39:06):
Yeah, it was, it was, it was 2003. Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:39:08):
I didn't even know that. I remember having debates about the middle east with Charlie Ellis who you probably knew.
Rob Collie (00:39:14):
Oh yeah. I've been on the phone with Charlie within the last month actually.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:39:18):
Tell him, I say hello. He went on his own too.
Rob Collie (00:39:22):
He did. Yeah, so you've written a number of books, Wayne and you've got a new one out right now and I did the good podcast host thing and I gave it a good skim this morning on Kindle.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:39:36):
I appreciate that because I gave you no notice.
Rob Collie (00:39:38):
It's a very substantial book. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:39:41):
It was hard.
Rob Collie (00:39:42):
670 pages on Kindle. I don't know how many pages I ordered the print copy.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:39:46):
500. Regular.
Rob Collie (00:39:48):
I love the tone of it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:39:50):
Thanks. I tried.
Rob Collie (00:39:52):
There are so many books on topics like these that are inscrutably, academic and arcane. I can't engage with those. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there's the Freakonomics type books that don't really get into too much of the technique. They almost read like a novel. They're very entertaining and intellectual. I kind of get this sense that this new book of yours is like between those two.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:40:13):
You hit a nail on the head of whatever the phrase is. That's exactly right. They're the books that are like Chinese food. You're hungry an hour later because it doesn't tell you how to do anything. And then they're the books for the data scientists, which you need your PhD. I'm using this book this afternoon and in the class I teach this afternoon. I have freshmen through seniors at IU, it's Honor students so they're smart. But they major in government, they major in biology, they major in psychology. My one freshman, who's doing great, she majors in dance but she got a nineties five on the test. So, she's doing great.
Rob Collie (00:40:50):
She's going to run an analytics and BI company some day.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:40:53):
Yeah, you have to have multiple perspectives and we're going to simulate the election in class today and we're going to do and talk about ranked-choice voting and stuff like that. But that's exactly I tried to come up with interesting topics. Like how should they have known Bernie Madoff was a fraud. There are three ways they should have known that. How did they figure out what caused cholera in England in 1854. That was probably the greatest doctor of all time, was the guy who did that. What he did was amazing. And the randomized trials we hear about with COVID I finished this book before COVID so it's not in there. I've finished it in March. I've written a chapter on COVID, that would be an addendum.
Rob Collie (00:41:34):
Let's give it its due. What's the title of the new book?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:41:36):
Analytics Stories. So, the cover is basically turning lead into gold or frog into a prince using data, which would fit you guys. My daughter works for a social media company and she's in advertising. And so the first cover was really a boring cover that had all these photographs of things in the book. She said, you need a fairy tale concept. So here we go.
Rob Collie (00:41:57):
I wrote a book called PowerPivot Alchemy sort of under the same guys. That's a good title. Well, it didn't sell very well. I'm sorry to say-
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:42:05):
But your other book has sold. I don't even know how many copies and it deserves to because I think you and I have, you guys have the same philosophy as I do. So you probably are too young to member show Hogan's heroes.
Rob Collie (00:42:17):
We got it in syndication. Tom's old enough.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:42:19):
I know nothing the prison guard used to say. So my philosophy in teaching is first of all, teach by example. And so that's the incremental approach. And then as soon that the people in my class are smart, but they don't know anything about the subject. And I think you did that in the PowerPivot book. You didn't have to know anything to go into that book and follow through your good examples. You're better than I am at. Like you have more patients with doing good screen captures than I do. Because that's a key to the book because that's what takes so much time in a book to do the figures.
Rob Collie (00:42:54):
Yeah. It's a lot of work.
Thomas LaRock (00:42:54):
I love the book. I love just how it read. Like you said, you're a professor that wrote this book and telling these stories and the way it gets broken down, like you say, you teach by example. I love [crosstalk 00:43:03] thanks. You start right off. It's like, Hey, what happened? What will happen, why did it happen? And the best part to me was how do we make something good happen? Right. And that really kicked me in the fields.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:43:14):
That's Optimization.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:16):
I want to ask about the chapter on American workers.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:43:19):
Yeah, sure.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:20):
Because there are two things that stood out to me, the first and I don't want to be critical at all, but I want to point out the fact that you said that Reagan beat Carter in a 2000 election and I know you meant 1980.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:43:31):
No, that was a typo.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:32):
I just wanted to say, if you need help with technical reviews, I'm available. I charge reasonable rights. I'd love to help you.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:43:38):
Okay. If I write another book, but I'm burned out at this point. No, that's the worst typo in the book I hope.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:44):
The chapter titles is the lot of the American worker improving.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:43:49):
Right.
Thomas LaRock (00:43:50):
And you gave a lot of evidence, but I'm not sure you actually answered the question. Is it improving or is it just something that we're supposed to figure out if it's improving for us as individuals?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:43:59):
Well, by looking at the median, I said it, the median is my measure of income. And it's not improving, but I do think my weakness as a writer is writing conclusions.
Thomas LaRock (00:44:11):
Okay.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:11):
And I think a lot of these chapters probably needed conclusions. I was hoping in most chapters to let people make up their own mind. What I didn't do with that chapter and I regret it deeply now is look up the data by race, you know?
Thomas LaRock (00:44:25):
Oh, okay.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:26):
I've seen that since the emphasis on racial justice recently, I've seen data on that. If we looked at the white non-college grad and we looked at the Black American and the Hispanic American and the Asian American, the Asians have done great. One thing I don't think I put in the book, they're intergenerational mobility by race. The Asians, basically by far the most intergenerational mobility, like what percentile does the child go in the income relative to the parent and for the Black, there's the worst intergenerational mobility.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:44:59):
But I just found that like a month ago I used it in a Homer problem on that chapter. Each of those chapters could have been a book, I guess it is my point. There are mostly stuff that hasn't been out there and they're pretty good. But there are books on the American worker. They're like the freaking up, you read 200 pages to get five pages. And so what I wanted to do is this, if you read 10 pages of this, you're probably getting 15 pages of stuff. My dream is this book would be taught in a high school like [inaudible 00:45:27] high school, because there's been a big debate about how high school match should go. And the Freakonomics author has been in the middle of this saying, we need to teach like analytics in high school. So people can be better voters and better decision makers.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:45:42):
You have AP statistics. A great thing about Excel, which we hadn't talked about is basically, it's got like zero cost to enter into Excel, to teach somebody something. You just start typing number. These people in my class, they didn't know much Excel coming in, most of them except the business school students. I needed to teach them how to draw a scatter plot. So, we did trendline. I mean it took 30 seconds. We needed to teach them tons of PivotTables. Because like half the chapters, we had to create a PivotTable to show something. I just show them how to do PivotTables. They're smart. And I had to teach them how to do VLOOKUP. I know you don't need it with Power Pivot, but I had to show them how, if you have two lists scrambled, you can take the stuff from the second list and put it in the first list.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:46:31):
The thing is, there's no learning. If you teach Python, which is definitely the coming thing. There's a big learning curve. You can go into Excel, teach people who know nothing how to do a lot of stuff. And that to me is really you teach them first day of class we did count FS, sumifs and basically they never knew it, but they had no trouble internalizing what it does. What would you say are the most important functions in Excel besides maybe VLOOKUP? I'd say those functions count FS, sumifs, average FS. I think those functions, they are probably more important than VLOOKUP, I'm not sure. If you had to rank Excel functions in importance, that's where I go. You could have a talk with Microsoft about that.
Rob Collie (00:47:17):
But you could get all kinds of combative about this. You know, I just pick the IF function and stand on it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:22):
IF is there too. I should have put IF there.
Rob Collie (00:47:25):
Maybe that's a whole podcast where we fight about ranking the functions.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:30):
You should have Bill Jelen on.
Rob Collie (00:47:31):
It's like the desert island functions. Like you can only take 10 functions with you, that's only 10 you get.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:35):
That's right. There's a song top 10 breakups.
Rob Collie (00:47:39):
That's right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:40):
Try fidelity.
Rob Collie (00:47:41):
Let's talk about high school math. You mentioned that. This is something that I've been reflecting on a lot.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:47:46):
And your son's in senior, in high school.
Rob Collie (00:47:47):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I was like an apex predator of the high school Math scene. I was on the Math team. I took all of those classes. We went to the final four in the Florida state calculus tournament.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:02):
You're from Florida. Where are you other guys from?
Rob Collie (00:48:03):
In the Florida state calculus tournament.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:03):
Oh, You're from Florida, where are your other guys from?
Rob Collie (00:48:04):
Our crew here, we're from all over. Luke and I met in Florida, but let's zoom in on high school math in particular.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:10):
Yeah, sure.
Rob Collie (00:48:10):
There were so many kids in those classes with me who had been forced into them by their parents, or were supposed to take them, you take the next honors class, whatever. There was always this refrain of when are we ever going to have to know this? When are we ever going to use this in real life? And at the time I would just viciously crucify them when they said that. I was such a not nice person. I didn't know it. I would say to them, well, you're only saying that because you're not any good at it, but they were right. I'm here to tell you that they were right, because I basically do math for a living.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:44):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:48:45):
It's a reasonable thing to say. And I don't use any of that. I don't use Algebra II. I don't use Trigonometry. I certainly don't use Calculus.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:48:54):
Great points.
Rob Collie (00:48:55):
There's something about it, looking back. Are we still just trying to build the engineer's of World War II?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:49:03):
Well, okay. That's a really great question because in the business school at Kelly, and I think most business schools, we require calculus and finite math; which your kid probably took finite math in high school. I would think maybe.
Rob Collie (00:49:15):
But I like finite math. I would still probably teach something to do with that.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:49:19):
Yeah, I think that's good. But they don't use any calculus in the business school, except if you're an investment major in finance. I'll give you a question and see if you can answer it. Why is calculus required in the business school if we don't use it? I can answer this for you, but take a guess.
Rob Collie (00:49:36):
Is it just a weed out?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:49:37):
No. It's because the math department would be financially bankrupt if we didn't require it.
Rob Collie (00:49:44):
Even better.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:45):
Oh wow.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:49:45):
That's the truth because IU runs on budgeting based on credit hours. So if the math department didn't get their credit hours from calculus, they'd be out of business. So the president would never let us take it away as a prerequisite. Though we're looking for a new president.
Rob Collie (00:50:00):
This explains why I had to take differential equations as part it of computer science. I wasn't going to be an electrical engineer.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:50:06):
No differential equations, I think, helps you think about the world. But I think, as you put it, I'll put it more delicately than engineers of World War II. It's a stem curriculum. So basically the high school math curriculum is to prepare you to go to Purdue and be an engineer. Okay. There's nothing wrong with that. What percentage of the kids, even at a great school, like Carmel, which is about the best high school in the state, are going to be engineers? Not that high. You can find Levitt's podcast somewhere where he says this stem curriculum, it shouldn't be for everybody. You're right. You're incredibly successful doing math for a living. Calculus has no importance to you and trigonometry has less, unless you're building your own house.
Rob Collie (00:50:55):
Let's fight about Bitcoin.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:50:57):
Okay.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:57):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:50:57):
I don't own any.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:50:58):
I don't either. I wish I had in the beginning.
Rob Collie (00:51:01):
I think that Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general, it has a much greater shot at being legitimate than a lot of people give it credit for. And for one very, very, very important reason, which is you can't fence it in.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:51:15):
That was the whole point of it. I think.
Rob Collie (00:51:16):
Yeah, it is immune. Not completely, but it's close to immune to capital controls. It is so easy to flee a country with your wealth in Bitcoin form.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:51:27):
That's a good point. And I think the Democrats if they win will put a wealth tax. That's an interesting point. Yeah, but I don't know enough about Bitcoin to comment.
Rob Collie (00:51:37):
You've heard about the people who sink their money into gold and then claim that it was lost in a boating accident, right? It's taking wealth just completely off the table; taking it completely off the radar. However, try to go across a border with $5 million in gold coins, right. And see what's going to happen to you.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:51:55):
That's a very good point. I think you're right on that.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:58):
But Rob, in the future, you're going to try to go across the border and they're going to know how much Bitcoin you have.
Rob Collie (00:52:03):
How would they know?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:52:05):
I don't think they can. I really don't.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:06):
But they can always change the laws. If they find that's an issue; people are fleeing. You know, that they'll change the rules.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:52:12):
That's a good point.
Rob Collie (00:52:13):
At the same time. I just don't know how you enforce any such law. For so long Swiss bank accounts were a safe haven until the U.S. finally leaned on them and broke them of that. But for a very, very, very long time, Swiss accounts were used for all kinds of things that were illegal, but unenforceable. I think what we found in the cryptocurrencies is something that is orders of magnitude harder to enforce.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:52:45):
I'm going to tell you both that there's a podcast you should listen to called The Missing Crypto Queen.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:49):
Okay.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:52:51):
You should subscribe to that. It's out of the BBC, it's an eight or nine episode series at this point and you can binge it fairly easily. And it's a nice tale giving you an idea of cryptocurrencies in general. I don't want to pick on just Bitcoin, but there's a lot of coins out there and they're not all legit.
Rob Collie (00:53:10):
No, that would be good.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:10):
Right, I'm sure there are.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:53:11):
It's a brilliantly woven story. It plays like an old radio serial. Basically this guy or a team of investigators goes after this missing crypto queen.
Rob Collie (00:53:20):
So is it set to, I don't know how to pronounce it. Is it Abba? ABBA? Is it set to ABBA's Dancing Queen?
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:53:26):
It is not. There's nothing musical about it. No, but it's a brilliant production. The quality is amazing.
Rob Collie (00:53:34):
I'll have the lyrics to crypto queen later today.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:53:39):
I think you would both appreciate it.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:40):
No, I'll listen to it.
Rob Collie (00:53:41):
I hear what you're saying, but there's also like, how does that wealth actually... So when Wayne says hey, maybe it's worth 20,000. At some point, it's like any idea how it might have actually gotten to that 20,000? They really peel the layers of the onion about the entire industry.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:53:58):
Oh, that will be great. I will listen to that. Princeton university press has a good book on the math of blockchain and Bitcoin. I have got the book, but I have not read it. I just haven't had time to read it because it's not easy.
Rob Collie (00:54:09):
And they all have, I think, vastly different processing power requirements in order to conduct a transaction.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:54:15):
Yeah, they burn a lot of energy.
Rob Collie (00:54:16):
That is just a crazy, crazy, crazy downside. You conduct a $9 transaction and you burn more power than your house does. It's insane. We don't need that, that's something we don't need.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:54:30):
That's interesting. I'll have to look into that.
Rob Collie (00:54:32):
Bouncing around because that's what we like to do.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:54:37):
Yo, that's great. I do that all the time in class. I talk about TV after I talk about offset function.
Rob Collie (00:54:41):
And I noticed that in your book, you're quoting Billy Joel lyrics and things like that.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:54:46):
Right, which I thought was perfect there and offset by the way is Cardi B's ex-husband. Just to mention that.
Thomas LaRock (00:54:55):
I love the references. The pop culture references and things that you sprinkle. It's just; it was great.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:55:01):
My students love that. I'd be talking about the off function and then I'd say, did anybody watch Gossip Girl Monday night? And they just crack up because nobody else does that.
Rob Collie (00:55:11):
So just back briefly to the high school math thing again.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:55:13):
Yeah, sure.
Rob Collie (00:55:14):
There's another thing that's been haunting me about all of this; haunting me in a good way. So maybe haunting is the wrong word. It's really a feel good thing for me. Which is that I don't see much correlation at all between the people who are good at Power BI and their interest in math in high school.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:55:32):
I'd agree with that.
Rob Collie (00:55:33):
It's not a negative correlation either. It's just no correlation. I said we're building World War II's engineers and you said, it's just a stem curriculum. But to me stem doesn't carry, maybe it should, a negative connotation. It doesn't really have any explanatory power as to what we're doing wrong with it. We tend to talk about stem as a good thing.
Rob Collie (00:55:58):
It's sacrosanct in a way. Then we also talk about, for instance, and this is a topic that I'm only halfway qualified to speak about, but that's good enough. Tom used to be involved and still is involved with a lot of conferences. Maybe we'll get back to that conference game after COVID runs its course. But at every conference that I've ever been to, especially the ones that I've been to with Tom, there's always been panel conversations about how to encourage more women into stem fields. And that's a recognition of the fact that it is a lopsided male, female ratio in a lot of stem fields. However, in our business, like when we're teaching classes, that's not the only thing that we do. Most of our work is actually consulting work, but we do teach a lot of classes.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:56:42):
Right?
Rob Collie (00:56:43):
The people in our classes, it's like 55% female.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:56:48):
Oh good.
Rob Collie (00:56:48):
The students, right? So there's a quantity advantage. And the quality is also what you would expect. It's 55% of the time, the best student in the class is also female. This is a real disconnect from what you would consider other stem fields. And at the same time, isn't what we do kind of a stem field? So whatever the forces are that lead to the average stem field being predominantly male, those forces are absent in my line of work. I don't know what the actual population composition is, but it's actually, if anything, it's slightly more tilted. It's just slightly tilted towards female in our line of work. And I just have found this fascinating for so long.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:57:29):
I got a theory on that when you're done.
Rob Collie (00:57:30):
Okay. Let's hear it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:57:31):
Okay. So my theory is, women are more patient than men. If you're going to be good at Excel or good at Power BI, you got to learn how to Google or Bing something when you don't know how to do it. Almost nobody has the patience to do that. We do because that's what we are, but most people they're just not going to do that. I bet women when they're stuck on something are much more likely to figure out how to find the answer to it than men are. Maybe men are too proud or too lazy or whatever. But I think that may be why it's not going to help you in stem to Google stuff really.
Rob Collie (00:58:15):
No.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:58:15):
Somebody, she now works for Microsoft and she had a problem, and I think I gave her slightly the wrong answer last week, because I didn't quite understand the problem. But then she found on Google or Bing; probably Bing because she works for Microsoft. She found it somewhere. She knew how to search and find somebody online who had solved the similar problem and she could figure it out from there. So this incremental learning, a lot of it is you have to be willing to look something up. For instance, Bill Gelin didn't even know that power get pivot data, but he knows tons of things I don't know. I can almost always find online something I don't know but then I know it. I think women are just more likely to cycle through that pathway to knowledge than men. But that's my only answer to you.
Rob Collie (00:59:06):
Well as a funny story, this isn't going to be confirmation of any sort, but in college I took two psychology courses because the computer science department required me to do two classes in something. So I picked psychology and of course the real purpose of Psychology 101 classes is to provide the psychology department with subjects for all of their various experiments.
Dr. Wayne Winston (00:59:28):
Oh, right, right, right.
Rob Collie (00:59:29):
So in order to get extra credit, you've got to sign up and be a guinea pig in various things. I got into this one where they provide a battery of interview questions like Scantron, multiple choice tests. What it really came down to was the theory they were testing was "were androgynous personalities more likely to be emotionally reactive than unipolar male or female traditional personalities"? I ended up watching these movie clips. Everything from boring stuff, horror films, sad things that happened in movies, all with these electrodes wired all over my body, on my hands to see if I was sweating in various moments. At the end of it, they explained to me that your interview questions, Rob, puts you very firmly in the androgynous category. And so that's why we promoted you to round two of watching the movies and everything. So there you go. It's the female part of me that draws me to excel.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:00:33):
That's why you're good at this. No. In the business school, we don't have as many women as we have men. The women will major more in marketing and management. That's sort of what you're saying. And then in the math department we've got less women.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:00:50):
In my honors class, it was a math and sports class. Last year I had a freshman, she took it, she was pre-med and she really knew nothing about sports. She didn't even know what baseball was. Okay. But she was the best student in the class. She would tear apart everything I did and try and understand every little detail and say could I have done it this way? She was valedictorian at her high school in Southern Indiana. So she's just really smart. It could be the approach we used to teach high school math as an approach that women don't like as much or they're taught they they shouldn't like it. I think if we did some research online, we could figure out why there's not that many women... Your data point is really interesting that there are more women who are basically high level analysts, I guess would be the title, (Senior Data Analyst) then there are men.
Rob Collie (01:01:52):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:01:52):
And they probably started out pretty low level, but they just.... It would be great if you talked to them after class and asked them, how did you get good at this? Just give that as a question. And you're to all the people, the men and the women.
Rob Collie (01:02:08):
Well, it's always the same story, no matter who they are.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:02:11):
Oh really? What is it?
Rob Collie (01:02:12):
It's always like essentially like some sort of battlefield promotion. It's like that whole nature abhors, a vacuum thing. If you're in a particular department or a team or an organization, let's just call it a team for a moment. Every team in every business in the world has an Excel guru on it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:02:30):
Okay. Well that black belt or something. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:02:32):
They're not trained in that. Sometimes it is, but usually it's not something that has anything formalized about it. No formal training. And the reason is, it's just out of necessity. If they don't have someone who is good at Excel, they're not going to be able to get anything done; that whole team.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:02:48):
That's that's exactly right.
Rob Collie (01:02:50):
They kind of like organically try out. Everyone gets tried out as to be good at Excel. The one person out of 15, and that's about what the ratio is. The one person out of 15 who shows some aptitude for it, that just becomes their job. That's what happens over and over and over again. The Vlookup and pivot crowd, which is its own subculture of the Excel landscape. A lot of the things that you do, Wayne, about simulations and...
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:03:16):
Yeah, that's minor.
Rob Collie (01:03:17):
It's not minor, but the Vlookup and pivot crowd is basically the world's BI.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:03:22):
That's the survival. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:03:23):
Yeah. All the other BI in the world rounds to zero still relative to the Vlookup and pivot crowd.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:03:29):
No, I agree.
Rob Collie (01:03:30):
Another anecdote that I think is interesting on this front. And I know we're just a bunch of dudes sitting around talking about that there are more women in something. But even though what I've told you is true, the overwhelming majority of our job applicants are still male.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:03:43):
That's surprising.
Rob Collie (01:03:45):
It is something that we're definitely working on. We have several women working for us now as consultants, but as a percentage edge of our applicant pool, we're not seeing that 55/45 that we would want to see. Back at Microsoft, when I was building the very, very first version of what I called the great football project, where we were building this amazing stats portal that lets you ask all kinds of questions. For instance, these quarterbacks are good, but who's good in the third quarter? Who's good at completing third and long? Who's good at avoiding third and long? The ability to answer basically any question you could formulate. I thought this was going to be hot.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:27):
It is now.
Rob Collie (01:04:27):
Well, I'm not so sure. It would be hotter now than back then for sure.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:29):
This was gambling.
Rob Collie (01:04:31):
Oh. Yes, yes.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:32):
In Indiana you can gamble.
Rob Collie (01:04:33):
Really?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:34):
You didn't know that?
Rob Collie (01:04:35):
I didn't know that. I did not. I thought I had to go to French Lick.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:37):
No, you can put it on your phone in Massachusetts. I'm not sure.
Rob Collie (01:04:42):
I thought we were done talking about Bitcoin. Are we back to that?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:46):
No, no. I'm talking about like Draft Kings or Fan Dual.
Rob Collie (01:04:49):
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:04:50):
I mean that's where there's a site with pro football reference where you can query the stuff that you talked about.
Rob Collie (01:04:58):
Yep. So we had this portal, we were focus grouping it. So we were bringing in people who were known to Microsoft, they were friendly to Microsoft, somehow. They were part of extended social circles of people that worked with us who were also into sports. And I learned several things in this process; one that's relevant here was that the men were not interested. They did not care.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:05:22):
Really?
Rob Collie (01:05:22):
They were not interested in what I was showing them at all. It was like they already knew what they needed to know. They thought they did. But time after time in these focus groups, the women in the group were leaning forward going, oh, but what about this, and what about that?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:05:37):
In sports?
Rob Collie (01:05:38):
Yeah, the curiosity.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:05:40):
That's the word I was looking for. Yeah. I mean, women are more curious to learn. Men are just practical and they just want to get it done and then go drink or play sports. I mean women have more of a soul, I guess.
Rob Collie (01:05:56):
I agree. Some of the things that we try to do are encouraging people to be more like men and I'm not necessarily sure if that's what we should be doing. But you mentioned Python earlier and you said it's got a learning curve. I'd like to adjust the terminology a little bit. I think Excel has a learning curve. Curves are smooth, right? Things like Python and C and Java, all these things. They have a learning cliff.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:06:22):
That's brilliant. That's a better way to put it.
Rob Collie (01:06:24):
You have to climb this vertical surface. A slick, vertical surface under icy, snowy windy conditions. And we're also going to oil it, we're going to put some oil on the cliff too while you climb it before you can even put your first dot on a chart.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:06:39):
That's you should write a book with these quotes.
Rob Collie (01:06:41):
And you mentioned this earlier, you think Python is the future. And I understand what you're saying, but I don't think so. I think the future is still Excel because of that learning cliff. Look at you. You came from a very, very rigorous academic background and it was only because of the accessibility of Excel to your audience, that you ended up drawn into it. Well, until something like Python has a learning curve, as opposed to a learning cliff, it's just never going to reach humanity in the same breadth. And this is something else that I talk about a lot, which is that Excel suffers a lot in its perception. Excel needs a better PR firm because it's grouped together with PowerPoint and Word. Everyone thinks of it as a document producer, a document container when it's really a programming language. The combination of the grid with the function language and the reference syntax, it passes every single formal test of what constitutes a programming language.
Rob Collie (01:07:47):
It is the most popular programming language by far in the world. In fact, the people who use all of the other programming languages combined don't come close to the number of people who are, even if we just limit it to people who are using Excel at a high level. I'm deliberately challenging something. I don't think we disagree, really. I haven't learned Python.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:08:04):
I haven't either.
Rob Collie (01:08:05):
So there's something else we can be completely unqualified to talk about. Let's do it. What are the roles of things like R and Python? What tools do you use, Wayne, that are not Excel?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:08:15):
Well, I mainly use Excel or add-ins for Excel. Like Monte Carlo simulation I use at risk and for data mining I use Dan Fouser, he bought XL Miner, which even if you have more than a million rows, it can sample. So I mean, you can fit a neural net and stuff like that. But I'll give you an example. I mean the Python people, if that's a proper phrase, they truly hate Excel. Now why do they hate Excel? I would like insight from you guys.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:08:44):
But I'll give you an example. I have this book, Mathlethletics on Math and Sports. I wrote it all in Excel, because I know Excel plus high school kids can read that book and even middle school kids read my book on math and sports because they can follow it because it's in Excel. To me, one of the best things about Excel is you see your data. So if I want to like square something for regression, I say column A squared. In Python, I could say that, but I don't see it.
Rob Collie (01:09:11):
That's right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:09:11):
I mean it's the grid. It makes it really easy to see. So we just wrote a revision. I have a co-author who does Python. And so he did all the stuff in the book in Python, we still wrote the book in Excel. So one of the reviewers said, I love this book. It's perfect. One reviewer said, why did these stupid authors put this book in Excel? Why isn't everything in Python? I should have used the word, the cliff that you just used when I was talking to my editor. We'll put the Python on a website so if a data scientist wants to teach our book in Python, they teach our book in Python. You're right, 90% of the people who are going to use our book in class on math and sports. And it is the best selling book in that subject. Not a big market, but basically they do it in Excel.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:09:59):
And I mean I can do logistic regression in Excel. There's a nice ad in Excel stat at letter X L L stat by a guy in France that does really advanced statistics in Excel. And I mean, you're right, it's a cliff, and you have to sort of master the whole Python language. And I think where Excel has tried to bridge the gap is Power Query. If you want to scrape the web efficiently for sports stats, Python's probably way better if you know it. But Power Query, if you're good at it, I think Power Query is fantastic. I don't know who developed that at Microsoft. How much of your classes do you spend on Power Query?
Rob Collie (01:10:41):
A third.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:10:42):
Okay. Oh that's yeah, that's good. Because there's not as much to learn. I would go to a power company in South Carolina and this person she spent two hours a day doing one task. I said, well you can do that in Power Query in 30 seconds. So I told her that and by the end of the break, I'd saved her an hour 59 minutes a day. It was just filled down. She'd have something in the first row, 10 rows of blanks, then something in 20 rows of blanks, something with 30, but it was always a variable number of rows. I said just do fill down and you'll fill them in. I mean, she was so grateful that she said, boy, that saves me so much time, 10 hours a week. And there are so many people who need to know Power Query and of course Power Pivot. You can do them on a hundred, 500 million rows, right? You work for Medicare or Walmart, you have to do that. They may be your clients. I don't know.
Thomas LaRock (01:11:41):
So I've spent, I mentioned earlier, over the last few years, I've tried to pivot a little bit and do more data science stuff in my career. And I spent the last year taking just about every Python class that data camp has to offer. I don't know how many that is at this point, but I'm probably not qualified to answer this at all. But what I wanted to offer was, I think Rob...
Thomas LaRock (01:12:03):
This is all, but what I wanted to offer was, I think, Rob, you're coming from this angle of saying, "It's one or the other." And I would tell you it's both. The future has both. And I can't help you understand why, like Wayne said, Python people hate Excel. I have no idea. I don't hang around with Python people. Maybe they do. But what I see is I see a future of both, because when I'm trying to work with Python sometimes I'm sitting there going, you know what? I understand they want to teach me how to do this in Python. But if I had to do this for my job, this part would be in Excel. And then I'd save it as a CSV and then I'd bring it in and then I'd do the data sciencecy stuff I need to do with Python.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:40):
So to me, I see a blend and where you can see that blend, like Wayne said, I can't see my data, but if you're using R and you use RStudio, you do get to see the data frame and you do get to see the data. And that's a lot of power. I don't know of anything similar for Python, that's similar to what RStudio does, but there is a place for both the extensibility that Python offers and the usability that Excel offers. And I think the future is a blend of those two.
Rob Collie (01:13:08):
And you know what, Tom, we have people at our company who are good at Python. We're in agreement that it's both. I do, however, I think, have an answer to why the Python people hate Excel.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:13:18):
Okay, good.
Rob Collie (01:13:19):
And you know what it is? This is one of those cases where the rule is, just take the cynical explanation and it's right.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:26):
Is that like Occam's razor?
Rob Collie (01:13:27):
Yeah, it is. It's just elitism.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:13:29):
I think that's right.
Rob Collie (01:13:30):
That's all it is. And that's really disappointing because it's this other topic that Tom and I have talked about, nerd bullies are the worst. We grew up as nerds. I know I did. People don't believe this about me, but I grew up, I was getting stuffed in lockers left and right. [crosstalk 01:13:48]. I was getting abused and traumatized at school every single day. And a lot of us were, right? And then to grow up and then acquire some sort of technical expertise and then to use that as a platform to continue the cycle of violence against others. It's just one of the most repulsive things in the world to me. And so when I see that kind of behavior and that's what it is, it is elitism.
Rob Collie (01:14:17):
I mean, I've been around a lot of technical types my whole career. I study humans very intently. So whenever I encounter that type of thing, I'm just like, "Oh, this is the good stuff." I love antagonizing that kind of crowd. The Linux cool kids... That is the best, getting after them showing them the things that I can do. Oh, with my so uncool Microsoft tool set. I can do things that they can't imagine doing. They can't even fathom being able to do this. And I'm just like, "Yeah, well, you know, all you have to do is just be a little more humble and not be such a jerk and be a little more open-minded and you can do these things too."
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:14:57):
Yeah. But one point on why I think the Python crowd doesn't like Excel and partially there used to be when they ran regressions, they'd give long answers. [crosstalk 01:15:08]. And I think that started the statistics. People saying you can't trust, Excel. And so from that point, the philosophy that you mentioned, took over. I think Microsoft left themselves open a bit.
Rob Collie (01:15:22):
That'd be a very charitable interpretation of human nature. I'm not going to subscribe to [crosstalk 01:15:26].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:15:26):
No, but the cliff is, why should you have to like climb El Capitan or whatever when you can go up a 50 foot hill? I mean, whatever you want to call it.
Rob Collie (01:15:37):
If I'm a Python or whatever... A programmer, a developer, I'm not going to know Excel. I'm not going to know it. If you hate Excel, you also don't know it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:15:46):
That's true. You have to love Excel to learn it.
Rob Collie (01:15:49):
And vice versa, right? This is a chicken and egg kind of problem. It's just like a self worth thing. "If Excel is good, then I'm worthless," I think is the psychology, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:15:58):
You're sure you want to be put this out on the internet?
Rob Collie (01:16:00):
Well, we're going to find out.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:16:03):
I don't know. I'll be really interested, but I actually think you're 80% right, at least.
Rob Collie (01:16:10):
So Tom, we've got audio of him saying that you're right. And that I'm 80% right.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:14):
That is also going on my blog.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:16:18):
I can just tell you that the really good MBA programs, they're now adding Python courses that a lot of the students are taking.
Rob Collie (01:16:27):
Does the marketing track at IU require your type of Excel class or not?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:16:32):
Well, I'll give a good plug to the Kelly School of Business. The big four accounting firms. Oh, we say Kelly Indiana University School of Business. The Excel for the undergrads is far and above what any other undergrad school teaches. And a lot of the people teaching it, I'll brag on this, are my former students. We make the students take two courses. The first one is half Access and half Excel. And the second one is basically the management science class. And then if they're in marketing major, they have sort of a database class, which is in Excel and maybe a little bit of SPSS. But then they just add in the undergrad program last year, Python class, which a lot of kids are taking or they could take in computer science, but business students hate that class.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:17:20):
We've got somebody really good teaching in the business school who teaches Python. The people I've talked to, who took that course, are very happy, but like I can tell you, Columbia, University of Chicago, Northwestern, they're adding Python electives to their MBA program. And that's just a trend from the last year or two. It's going to be a non zero percentage now. Like if you want to be in sports analytics, you couldn't get an interview if you didn't know Python.
Rob Collie (01:17:47):
I was just going to say, Mark Cuban is learning Python. And that's all I needed to know.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:17:52):
Oh, okay. I didn't see that. But I've talked to a bunch of the analytics people in sports and no matter how good you are, if you can't show you know Python or R you won't... And he sponsored AI for underprivileged kids, a seminar this week.
Rob Collie (01:18:08):
We're not going to talk about this in any depth here, but we'll reserve this for some other time.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:18:11):
Yeah, I'm glad. Anytime. This has been wonderful.
Rob Collie (01:18:13):
A friend of mine just bought an actually relatively prominent known soccer team in Europe. He wants to do the analytical approach. He wants to do all that kind of stuff and he wants our help. So we're going to need to put our heads together a bit.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:18:28):
I'll talk to you about that.
Rob Collie (01:18:30):
Super exciting. By the way, you have a chapter on hedge fund performance in your new book. This guy is also a former and, I think, somewhat current hedge fund manager and a former professional soccer player and a former physics major who will be happy to talk to you about relativity.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:18:49):
You know it more than I do.
Rob Collie (01:18:49):
I'm going to see if I can eventually get him to come on this show, but he kind of likes to stay in the shadows. We'll see if I can get him to pop cloak, but for now he's going to remain a mystery.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:18:57):
But can I say a word about analytics and soccer and I'm sure you see this in your work. Okay. What data should the people be working with? To run their company well, what data do you need to do your consulting on? Do they usually know the answer or do you help them get to that answer?
Rob Collie (01:19:16):
It really depends. A Lot of times when we get brought in, they have a pretty good handle on what it is that they need. It's just really hard to get there. And Power BI makes it super, super easy, at least compared to traditional methods to get there. And so we're just like lightning in a bottle for them.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:19:33):
Oh, I see.
Rob Collie (01:19:33):
At the same time though, there's another principle that we've developed over time. And then this is just the absolute truth, which is human beings don't know what they need until they've seen what they asked for.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:19:45):
Oh, that's another aphorism for your book, because I'll tell you the thing I'm bad at teaching or I don't spend enough time on it. What data do we need to solve a problem? You guys are probably the best qualified to write that book. And it would get used in schools. Getting back to your soccer. The key in soccer is digitizing the video because nobody ever scores. And baseball they just came up with Statcast. So you watch a baseball game, they'll say, he hit it a 105 miles an hour and it went 450 feet. And the launch angle was 30 degrees. So they digitized the video. And basically until five years ago, they never knew that stuff. So the baseball data set based on the cameras in the stadium is for this whole season, a billion rows. Now I think Power BI could, and.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:20:32):
I would bet teams are using your power pivot without... Maybe they're your clients, I don't know, but basically I'll bet you there are big Python people, but I bet, to generate their reports on what they need, they would be using Power BI if they weren't to do a lot of their stuff. And it's like, "Is a pitcher going to get a sore arm"? You look at his spin rate and velocity over time and see if it's dropping and then you should rest them. I had an Uber driver in Florida, it's a tragic story, he pitched for the Red Sox in the year they won the world championship and then he pitched too many pitches in one game, and the next day his rotator cuff was torn. He was 23, end of career and he is driving Uber. If they had understood then that he thrown too many pitches.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:21:16):
He might have pitched 10 years in the major leagues. But now they took that guy out in the Dodger game and they shouldn't have taken him out because he was unhittable and the analytics said to take him out. So analytics can only be a piece of the puzzle. You have to recognize non-analytic things in your business and I'm sure you run into that.
Rob Collie (01:21:39):
Yeah. Maybe they made the right decision for the pitcher, but the wrong decision for the org.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:21:44):
Oh, that's a very good point. And they only scored one run so they weren't going to win anyway.
Rob Collie (01:21:48):
Yeah. [crosstalk 01:21:49].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:21:49):
So I don't know. I don't know. The key in sports is what data do you need? And we have huge data sets now, which is why the Python people are needed. So that baseball data set is a billion rows. And they're just trying to figure out what to do with those billion rows. If you look at the Dodgers webpage, I think they've got 20 analysts. Now American football is the last sport to really have good analytics. And I still think they're working. The Colts have an analytics team and we had an interview with them, but they thought they were good enough. Sports is probably the best field to teach analytics in to people who know sports, because the problems are sort of well defined. And you can say, "What data do we need"? I know enough about business that I can go into a business and I can probably say what data you need to be keeping. And you may not be keeping it. And then what to do with the data. I'm good at that. But basically in sports it's been... We wrote the Math and Sports book 2007. It was obsolete before it came out. And every day we sent the final edition of our Math and Sports second edition. But it'll be out of date by the time it's out in the year because the field's changing so much.
Rob Collie (01:23:04):
Well, the NBA was the first to add the sport view cameras, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:06):
I believe that's true.
Rob Collie (01:23:07):
It wasn't even league wide to begin with. It was only certain arenas, right? [crosstalk 01:23:12].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:11):
Teams had to pay. You're right.
Rob Collie (01:23:12):
Yeah. So I assume that the Mavs were probably in that first wave.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:17):
Mavs and the Rockets. And the Rockets' GM just left for Philadelphia.
Rob Collie (01:23:21):
That's right.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:21):
The rockets never did that great, no offense.
Rob Collie (01:23:23):
So it's only fair if Hinkey now goes to the rockets, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:27):
Right, Hinkey. Yeah, trust the process. He was fired by Philadelphia.
Rob Collie (01:23:31):
Yeah. Trust the swap.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:32):
Yeah. Well, and the funny thing is Daryl Morrey believes in three pointers, which is the right thing to believe in. He's now through a team where they have the worst three point. Ben Simmons has made two, three pointers in his career.
Rob Collie (01:23:42):
Yeah. Enough that both of them made SportsCenter, right? [crosstalk 01:23:47].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:47):
Probably. [crosstalk 01:23:47].
Rob Collie (01:23:47):
A Hundred percent of his threes are on Sports center. [crosstalk 01:23:49].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:23:49):
I couldn't believe because Daryl said he quit to spend more time with his kids. And so now he takes this other job. The owner of the Rockets is a difficult guy to work with. [crosstalk 01:23:58]
Rob Collie (01:23:57):
Maybe Ben Simmons is his kids now, you know?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:24:00):
Yeah, Ben Simmons will be traded. I think he could bet on that.
Rob Collie (01:24:02):
I've researched the Sport View stuff. It's rampantly deployed in soccer worldwide, those cameras are everywhere. So they're digitizing just like they did for the NBA. I've all also had some sessions with their sales team where we've gone through what's available and what they've got and everything. It's really impressive. But at the same time, the same sort of questions you're asking, I think, they're still pretty early into figuring out what's actually relevant.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:24:26):
I can tell you what's relevant in soccer. There was a paper and actually was written by a woman who worked for Microsoft. The problem with analyzing soccer, and to be honest, why I don't watch it that much, is you can go to bathroom and miss all the scoring. Okay. So basically if you want to evaluate players, you have to sort of value the movement of the ball. Like if somebody steals the ball from me, that's worth minus something goals. If I make a penalty kick, that's worth plus so many goals. And the key to doing that is what's called a Markov chain, which you may have studied in undergrad. Some of you-
Rob Collie (01:24:58):
In computer science. Yeah [crosstalk 01:24:59]. It's queuing theory, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:01):
It's a state. You have states of the system and where the ball goes as a state and where it goes next is the next state.
Rob Collie (01:25:07):
Yep. I read a book one time where there was a character in the book named Markoff Chaney. He represented the random element in the story.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:15):
Was it science fiction?
Rob Collie (01:25:16):
It was like 1960s, hippie Robert Heinlein inspired-
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:21):
Oh, like Stranger in a Strange Land?
Rob Collie (01:25:23):
Yeah. Yeah. It had that kind of vibe to it.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:25:26):
No that's cool. Figuring out you needed to digitize. So in the NBA, the cameras, I think, look at the ball and the players 20 times a second. That's the humongous data set for just one game. And then they all now have the same data in baseball and basketball and NFL. They just hired a director of analytics. And so they're really getting better camera data in the NFL. But you'd think with that being the most important sport in this country, they would've had that data years ago. But basically in hockey has, because they played in the basketball arenas, the analytics of hockey has been coming up recently to be very important. I talked to the Indiana University, swimming coach.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:26:04):
He thinks, are there things he can do with analytics and swimming? You got to know the sport and you got to know... Some people are good at thinking about data, "Like what data do I need to solve a problem"? Most people are absolutely horrible at that. I wonder if the people who take your class, do they have the knack for knowing, when they come into your class, what data you need to show them how to work with? I don't do a good job teaching that in class, because I run out of class time. But it's real important.
Rob Collie (01:26:33):
You've heard me express some cynical viewpoints, but this is one on which I'm pretty optimistic. The people that come to our classes, in general, like the VLOOKUP and Pivot crowd. These are just really, really, really good people.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:26:46):
Right. And they know their business.
Rob Collie (01:26:48):
I love them. Like if the world were only VLOOKUP and Pivot people, we would live in harmony. It would be such a better place. So I have a really relatively high opinion of this demographic. It doesn't mean that we're perfect. It's always a work in progress, right?
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:27:04):
No, you're absolutely right. You were talking about like, you've got to know the sport, but you've also got to know data. You've got to have that data gene that we talk about.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:27:11):
And that's another great phrase.
Rob Collie (01:27:13):
It's that decathlon thing again. [crosstalk 01:27:15]. If you have people who know the sport and you have people who are good at the data, but that's not the same brain-
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:27:20):
Usually not.
Rob Collie (01:27:20):
... You're going to be very inefficient and really ineffective. And this is true in business. This is why we're seeing BI migrate outwards from the IT hub into the business units in the form of Power BI for instance. And it's the VLOOKUP and Pivot people that are being deputized in this game. Because they have that business knowledge, the tribal knowledge, all that kind of stuff.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:27:44):
And they have the data gene.
Rob Collie (01:27:44):
And they have the data gene, which again is not rampant in the business, but there's like one out of 16 that have it. And when those two things, the ability to execute and the knowledge of the business, the domain. Same thing in sports, right? I think most people get into sports analytics, especially these days. They like sports and they like data. But for a while there, they were just grabbing, like Wall Street Quants.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:28:06):
That's who runs the Dodgers.
Rob Collie (01:28:07):
Yeah. It's worked. So-
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:28:09):
But they knew sports. Those people, I think.
Rob Collie (01:28:12):
Tom, do you have any pardoning questions?
Thomas LaRock (01:28:14):
The one question I have for Wayne, because he made that bold statement that Mark Cuban is going to run for president in 2024. Is that something that we can use when we promote the podcast? Like as a question, "Will Mark Cuban run for president"? [crosstalk 01:28:26].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:28:26):
I'm just putting two and two together. I said him, the chapters of my book on politics and he was interested. And basically he did this thing on ranked-choice voting. See the way the country works, the Democrats and Republicans, they have almost nothing in common except one thing... They want nobody else on the ballot. They've made it very hard to be on the ballot. And I think he is going to spend the next couple year, I'm not saying he'll run, I shouldn't have said he'd run, he's going to spend the next couple of years thinking how you can get a valuable third party option and ranked-choice voting is the key. If we get third party on the ballot, the country would be much happier if they were able to rank the candidates. Maine, and one of its congressional districts is doing that.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:29:13):
Minneapolis does it in all their elections. I'm going to teach that in class later today. And I think it's very important, but I think, Mark, first of all, he hates Donald Trump from a long time back. I mean, he's not alone in that. I'm an independent, I'm in the middle and the people in the middle, we have nothing. [crosstalk 01:29:36]. Ranked-choice voting, 35% of the population classifies themselves as moderate. But the primary system, basically, you get either the far-right or the far-left. That's how it works.
Rob Collie (01:29:46):
I lasered straight to this chapter when I saw the table of content. This is where I went immediately.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:29:52):
The voting chapter is really interesting. The math of voting.
Rob Collie (01:29:54):
I agree. I think you're totally right. That the primary system is part of the problem.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:29:59):
That's exactly right.
Rob Collie (01:30:00):
You identified yourself as a moderate in there, which you know that, that middle 35% [crosstalk 01:30:06].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:30:05):
Probably a bad thing to do.
Rob Collie (01:30:07):
I really want moderate to get a brand makeover. You and I could both identify as moderate, somewhere between left and right. But in our day to day lives, would any of us really describe ourselves as moderate? It's such a vanilla milk [crosstalk 01:30:23].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:30:23):
Need a better term. It's like-
Rob Collie (01:30:24):
Yeah, I think we need like radical moderatism. Like the analytics driven. We need to disrupt, that there's something needs to change. And you don't typically associate moderate with a need or a desire or an enthusiasm to upset the apple cart. But with this apple cart needs to be upset.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:30:44):
Right. We need compromising. There's just no compromising. Even under Reagan, there was compromising and basically these parties hate each other. Do you want my prediction for the election?
Rob Collie (01:30:56):
Sure. Let's let's put you on record. [crosstalk 01:30:58].
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:30:58):
And it's horrible. My prediction is, Trump will be ahead of election night, but when all the mail-in votes come in Biden will be the winner. So we told the guy building our pool in Florida, what's going to happen. And he said, "Well, if Biden wins, Virginia has the fifth largest militia in the world and they're heading to DC. I mean, that symbolizes where we're at. [crosstalk 01:31:19]. It's going to be a disaster if, the scenario I mentioned whoever you're for, if Trump's ahead election night, but the mail-in votes, they're going to fight every mail-in vote for a month. And then it'll make 2000 look like a walk in the park.
Rob Collie (01:31:36):
We closed the previous podcast with Michael Salfino, by saying, "Yeah, we'll get together again right after the election. That is, if we're not out fighting the second American civil war on the street."
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:31:46):
You got that right. What is his job?
Rob Collie (01:31:49):
You'll really like Mike, he writes for The Athletic and FiveThirtyEight about sports analytics.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:31:54):
Oh, I'll look him up then. I can find him.
Rob Collie (01:31:56):
The two of you haven't quite crossed paths yet, but you're going to need to.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:31:59):
The second civil war in the streets is, if that was your phrase, you're not far off because, I mean, I can tell you, I've talked to people on both sides and as all of you have, no matter what happens, it's going to be bad. I mean, whoever you're for, it doesn't matter. It's going to be bad.
Rob Collie (01:32:18):
Wayne, thank you so much. [crosstalk 01:32:20]. This was a real pleasure.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:32:21):
I'll come up there sometime to see you.
Thomas LaRock (01:32:22):
Dr. Winston. Thank you.
Dr. Wayne Winston (01:32:24):
Bye. Thanks.
Thomas LaRock (01:32:25):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email LukeP, L-U-K-E P, @powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
Brad Miller and Kai Hankinson from Agree Media were Rob's first clients at P3 before it was even called P3! These guys have been close friends and business partners for a long time, and they know a lot about data. We cover:
- Their ups and downs in various business ventures
- How they wrote and used AI software to win at online poker, while living in India
- Organic farming in Hawaii, also known as WWOOFing
- Their connection with Snoop Dogg
- How Agree uses Power BI
- The Lead Generation Business
- The differences between Facebook and Google advertising
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello again everyone, one of the gifts of my career is all the interesting places it's taken me during some interesting times and all the interesting people I've met along the way. Well, today's guests, Brad Miller and Kai Hankinson are two of the most interesting people I know. Ivy League MBAs, entrepreneurs, rabid users of Power BI. Along the way, they've written poker bots, lived in India, they've been sued by Facebook, and they've lived off the land in Hawaii. But they're more than just interesting people to me. I'm really grateful to say that they're also my friends. Friends who've been along for the whole ride. They were there before P3 was even a company. And really they were the guinea pigs for the whole idea. When I had a full-time startup CTO job, they'd hire me to consult with them on the side, even though I wasn't taking consulting terribly seriously yet.
Rob Collie (00:00:49):
So they watched P3 develop from literally zero into the nationwide firm we are today. More than watched actually, they helped and vice versa. I've been along for their journey as well. So what I hope you hear is an authentic conversation between friends. A conversation revolving around data, for sure. But again, that human element looms large, the filter was completely off for this one. We talk a lot about failure, rebounding from it, learning from it. We laugh a lot about how hard it was to get them onto the Power BI train. Even though today, they can't live without it. And I think you'll see there's no shortage of personality in these two. It's a long one, but I don't think there was a single dull moment in the conversation. So let's get after it.
Announcer (00:01:33):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:37):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast with your host, Rob Collie. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:53):
All right. Welcome. My California startup entrepreneur friends. Thanks both of you, Brad and Kai for coming on. Really been looking forward to this. You guys have been in business together for how long now? How long has Hankin Miller Enterprises been a thing?
Brad Miller (00:02:10):
I think we got started what, 2005, Kai?
Kai Hankinson (00:02:14):
I think we got started in 2004 actually.
Brad Miller (00:02:16):
2004, so it's a long marriage.
Rob Collie (00:02:20):
Yeah, I was going to say, and one of you has already forgotten the anniversary. One of you's already forgotten how long. So it's a realistic marriage, isn't it?
Brad Miller (00:02:30):
It's a very realistic marriage on a lot of fronts.
Rob Collie (00:02:33):
Yes it is. So you guys met in business school, right?
Kai Hankinson (00:02:37):
Yep.
Rob Collie (00:02:37):
And not just business school, right? Ivy League business school. That's where you guys met. I'm an engineer sort of originally like that sort of what the machine churned me out as, as a 22 year old. From my perspective, you guys were in a completely different world. You were in the essentially like the financial and business world with almost like this made man sort of circle, in a way. Right? But today I think of you as data professionals in every bit as much of the real sense as I am. So Wall Street, private equity, my expectation as a borderline Vulcan nerd is that once you're in that world, you would just stay there. You know, you would just stay in that world. You would stay circulating in that Wall Street and private equity world. You'd have other people doing your data for you. You wouldn't be getting your hands dirty in that. You'd just be too important for it. That's my expectation as an outsider, but that's not where you find yourselves.
Rob Collie (00:03:39):
And so I just want to start here, why did you leave? Why did you leave that world to go do your own thing? And some of the things you've done, as we're going to get to, are very interesting. What led you to branch out like that?
Brad Miller (00:03:52):
Kai, you want to take that one?
Kai Hankinson (00:03:54):
Yeah. Brad and I, we met at the first day at Columbia Business School, and we were assigned this little group of four students together that did a semester long project. Brad and I hit it off as friends, and it wasn't long before we started up a weekly poker game at my house where we would take money off of the rest of our business school friends, who mostly came over to socialize and drink the free beer we bought them. We were taking the poker much more seriously just because that was our thing, and we wanted to win.
Rob Collie (00:04:29):
I've had friends like you at poker games. You ruin everything.
Kai Hankinson (00:04:37):
Yeah. So we had a lot of fun playing poker through business school. It was around the time that the Rounders movie came out. No, we went to school 99 to 2001. So we were in Manhattan and we'd occasionally hit up those Rounders style clubs in Manhattan that the movie was kind of written after. Those places used to scare the shit out of us, in a good way. But we would just walk into places, scared to death, just these little business school dorks. Trying to look like we knew what we were doing, and we pushed some chips out there.
Rob Collie (00:05:09):
And then Teddy KGB.
Kai Hankinson (00:05:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:05:11):
Sitting across the table. Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:05:14):
Yeah. You don't want to mess with Teddy KGB. Anyways, we graduated business school finally and went to for the man. I was on Wall Street for Merrill Lynch and Brad went out to California with Deloitte, but we just kept in contact about the poker because we were really interested in it. We started studying the artificial intelligence projects going on in poker at some of the institutions like University of Toronto, I think was a big one. This was back in the day when the AI had beaten the chess problem, but hadn't yet really made a dent in the poker problem because it was a tougher problem. Chess is a perfect information game. Everyone can see all of the board and poker isn't, and because of that, you get the whole component of bluffing and everything else.
Kai Hankinson (00:06:04):
And so it's just a harder problem for AI, but we were really interested in their attempts to solve it with AI. We ended up getting this idea that we could break the poker hand up into the parts that were best for AI and the parts that were best for human, and just divide up the workload that way. And together build a best case player. We ended up raising some money. We actually raised the money in 2004, which was the reason for my answer, and we quit our jobs in 2005, which was a reason for Brad's answer. We raised the money and left our gigs, and started up a company dedicated to playing online poker with artificial intelligence assistance.
Brad Miller (00:06:51):
I will say that it was easier for me to leave my job than it was for Kai to leave his job. Going back to your question, I had always considered myself an entrepreneur and I knew that's what I wanted to do. So my time in management consulting was time I was putting in there. It's also very difficult to get rich charging by the hour. Right? Which is the consulting model. So I knew wasn't really my long term goal. Kai, on the other hand, had landed a very plush gig, trading equity derivatives for Merrill Lynch. It took me a while to convince him to leave. I think, at the time, his wife, at the time, wanted to move back to California, and the New York lifestyle might have been killing him a little bit, and so that kind of helped the cause.
Brad Miller (00:07:41):
During the whole time I had been playing on the nascent online poker rooms, and there was some really basic software that was available at the time, I forget the name. There were all these upgrades that I wanted to make to the software that I was like, "the guy's missing this, he's missing that, he's missing this." And so I'd keep telling Kai about it, and Kai would agree and be like, "what you're describing is a lot like kind of the software and the UI that I use at Merrill to trade derivatives." And so we started to design what this ultimate software product might look like?
Rob Collie (00:08:20):
Did you hear how Brad started that? He said, "it's really difficult to get rich charging by the hour." You had to throw that in there, Brad, you had to cut me. As the owner of a consulting firm, don't I know it? You know?
Brad Miller (00:08:33):
I think the difference is you're the owner, so if you've taken that step and taken the additional risk, right?
Rob Collie (00:08:40):
That's true. I'm still aspiring to be you guys when I grow up, and you're still aspiring to be someone else when you grow up. It's how the game is played. If I can paraphrase the last couple minutes, we really enjoyed playing poker with our business school friends that weren't as good at it, and taking their money. And then we said, what if we could take that and really scale it? What if we could do that online? That'd be great.
Brad Miller (00:09:07):
I think that's right. One more thing I'd want to throw in though is that I think both of us live by a kind of philosophy where if you're not willing to publicly admit that you do something, then you probably shouldn't do it. And so it's kind of a motto we live by. I know I definitely felt like I was living two lives at the time. I was living Brad, work Brad, for a consulting firm. And then I was living private Brad, and I just really didn't enjoy that. I was like, I want to be one person, I don't want to have to put on an act, I don't want to have to satisfy the man.
Brad Miller (00:09:49):
Things like Kai went to this mushroom ceremony a couple months ago and had an amazing experience, and wrote an email to our entire team about it, explaining the ceremony and what he had learned. You can't do that at Deloitte. If you want to go run around naked at Burning Man, you should be able to go run around naked at Burning Man; but Deloitte customers probably wouldn't appreciate it. So, that's what I mean by kind of two separate lives.
Rob Collie (00:10:17):
There's all these like workplace personality assessment, there's a million companies that do this. The ones that I've done, I've done the same one a couple times at different points in my life. They give you two pictures. They give you one of yourself in the professional environment, and one of yourself in the personal environment. There's almost also this distance score between the two.
Rob Collie (00:10:41):
The mediator in the first session, when I took did this at Microsoft, told us that those of you with a large distance between these two, the most authentic moment he could offer, he was just going through script for all day. Right? But this one moment you could sort of tell he was telling you something that was real. He was sort of dropping the script and he was saying, "if you have a really large distance there, it takes its toll." He said it that slowly, and then he repeated it, "it takes its toll." I'm sitting there looking at my sheet, and me and one other guy and this room of like a hundred people, like we're these outliers with this most dramatic difference between our personal and our professional. And I'm just like, "Ahh!" You know? Took it again recently, but my distance isn't as great. Both sides of me has changed over the 10 years intervening. They've sort of moved towards each other, and I feel a lot better.
Brad Miller (00:11:35):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:11:35):
I can certainly appreciate that. Did you get rich with the poker thing?
Brad Miller (00:11:39):
So scale, we did. We ended up moving the company to India because we wanted to use one of the outsourcing firms there. We were working with one of the outsourcing firms. We ended up putting together a group of a couple of hundred Indians that would use our software that we had designed and developed to play online poker at the various rooms. It was pretty crazy. We were doing things where the software was recording every hand online at these poker rooms. So we had data on every handle that was playing. So that was accessible while you were playing against that opponent. Our software allowed you to play upwards of 10 to 20 hands simultaneously. We then started doing things, because it was all through our UI, we would break the hand down into its various components. For example, we would have an expert that would only see hands that had pocket pairs in early position.
Brad Miller (00:12:45):
Whenever we got dealt up a pocket pair in early position, we would route that to Indian call center agent number 12. So, on his screen at any point in time, you could have 12 hands, only from the flop forward, only pocket pie pocket pairs in early position. That's all he knew. He was an expert. That's what he did. So we just designed the whole thing kind of similar to how he would design a call center, and how you would route different phone calls. We would route poker hands the same way.
Kai Hankinson (00:13:19):
Yeah, in order to do that, guys and girls would get thrown into the middle of poker hands. So in order to do that, and also to facilitate the ability to play so many hands at the same time, Brad invented this graphical representation of a poker hand to where, in a quick instant, you could catch up on all the action that had occurred up to that point. It really was one of the coolest things we came up with, I think. It was just so powerful to be able to, even if you were playing in the hand the whole time and you forget that a lot of the little stuff, and with this, you can at any point, look back at every little bit and be like, "oh, that's right, he did call that cold on the flop."
Rob Collie (00:14:02):
Do you have a screenshot of that laying around anywhere? This is a data visualization technique, right? It'd be a really interesting novel thing. We won't actually do this, but it'd be a neat thing to build the Power BI custom visual that reimplemented what you designed. If we were just laying around with nothing to do, we would absolutely do that.
Brad Miller (00:14:22):
Yeah. It'd be cool. I'm sure we have it somewhere. It's also just such a neat experience because they don't play poker in India. And so we had to train everyone up from the get go. We also couldn't let them that they were actually playing real poker because they were betting, in some cases, hundreds of dollars per hand, they were only making $10 a day. If they knew that they had hundreds of dollars on the line in any given hand, they would just freeze and wouldn't play optimally. So we basically had to tell them that they were just testing the software and they were trying to train the software up. So it was a crazy experience.
Kai Hankinson (00:15:03):
That was a wild experience. You would walk around that floor, that call center floor, overlooking the shoulder of all these little kids. They were like 20, 21 to 24 years old, just so innocent and fun. You'd look over their shoulder and you would know what was going on, and I'd be nervous as crap like, "oh please, please don't screw this one up. You got to raise him here, you know, right?" I'm thinking, but I don't want to interrupt him because he is also playing four hands at the same time. What a wild experience.
Rob Collie (00:15:40):
Now, Luke is usually just the silent producer on these things, but in the same timeframe, Luke was playing a lot of online poker. Luke, now do you see what you were up against?
Luke (00:15:51):
Well, yeah, I might have played against you, and that's the reason why I sucked so bad.
Brad Miller (00:15:58):
Now, we were playing primarily at the lower limits in the limit games. So, once you get to the high limit stuff, the software wasn't able to compete. So we were mostly in it for the quantity of the quality.
Kai Hankinson (00:16:14):
We were playing quarter million hands a day, quarter million hands of poker a day at the end. So, maybe we should say though that eventually we got with the Indian operation to where we were highly poker profitable, but the company wasn't yet profitable. We weren't covering our full operating expenses. We were running out of our runway from the money we had raised. We decided to make a bet that we could automate the rest of the hand, and both cut down our cost structure quite a bit and play even better poker than we were with the human training.
Kai Hankinson (00:16:52):
We eventually packed up from India. We came back to San Diego, boarded ourselves up in an office, and set out on a six month endeavor before we ran out of money to fully automate the hand. We made it just in time, at the end, we got up to a quarter million hands a day, when it was just servers, no operational nightmares, no humans to maintain and get everybody aligned up, logged in, just servers, just pounding out hands on every table we could get a seat on online. You say we were primarily lower limit, I think the truth is that's only because that's primarily what's played. We had guys at every limit poker seat. It was just that there's very few high limit tables.
Rob Collie (00:17:38):
Did you ever suspect that you weren't alone in this? That there might be other similar operations going on, and some of your hands you were playing, you were also playing against other bots?
Kai Hankinson (00:17:50):
You definitely wondered. It's just so unknowable.
Rob Collie (00:17:55):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:17:55):
People would accuse us of being bots regularly. I think that's just an accusation that probably flies around online quite a bit. We had a whole setup where when one of our players was mentioned, it would get routed to a human whose job was to like pipe in on the comment thread and come back over the top, "your mother is a fucking bot."
Rob Collie (00:18:20):
You had a specialist for that as well.
Kai Hankinson (00:18:25):
Yeah. Yeah, we did. We didn't like being called bots.
Rob Collie (00:18:28):
Yeah, those accusations that are true, those are the ones that hurt the most. You know?
Kai Hankinson (00:18:34):
Yeah, we have a poker reputation to maintain as a big bluffer.
Rob Collie (00:18:41):
At the same period of time when you guys were doing this, I was working at Microsoft and playing a lot of World of Warcraft because, like you were saying earlier, you get this difference between your personal and professional self. There's a point at which you don't really pour as much into the Microsoft job, right? You start staying up late playing these games. There's bots all over those games. Those games are loaded with bots that are running around farming in-game currency to turn around and sell it for real world currency. You can report the bots, and if someone tries to talk to them and if the bot seems human-like in its response, the bot gets to go on its way. Look at the sophistication of the CAPTCHAs that we have to navigate on the internet these days. We're reaching the point where the CAPTCHAs are harder for us than they are for the bots. We're not too far away from the point where the bots are better at solving the CAPTCHAs than humans. Then what do we do? It's sort of game over.
Kai Hankinson (00:19:42):
The best defense is if you can pass a quick Turing Test.
Rob Collie (00:19:46):
Oh yeah, of course, everyone knows about that. The Turing Test, if it turns out that, in those situations, the bots are just routing to a real human to pass the test, what are you going to do? Game over. I asked, "Did you get rich playing with the poker business?" You said, "Well, we scaled."
Brad Miller (00:20:08):
We did not, we got very poor with the poker business. There were two things that went against us at the poker business. One was in around 2008, they passed some legislation that basically killed the industry for a while. All the poker sites were based in offshore jurisdictions that the US government couldn't touch. So what they did was they regulated the bank transactions between the US banks and the poker sites. So there was no way to get money in and out of the poker sites anymore. Which effectively killed it. Which was a pretty smart way to kill it, if you're going to do anything. The other one was we thought that the poker software would kind of go the way of the market trading software, the stock market trading software, the kind of stuff that that Kai was using at Merrill Lynch. We thought that if you could build better software, great, you deserve to win just like in the market. If you can build better software, you're a hedge fund, you can build better software, great. The poker sites don't like that. We didn't quite realize that at first. The reason they don't like that is because what happens is you take it to the extreme.
Brad Miller (00:21:20):
Let's say this one guy at the table and he kills everyone else. Basically all the money goes to him. He stands up and he walks away, right? The poker site doesn't make any money. If everyone at the table is of kind of equal capability, then what happens is they just push money around hour after hour. Everyone's just sitting at the table, money's going back and forth. And the poker site takes their percentage out of every hand or out of every hour or whatever it is. So the poker site has a lot of incentive to make sure that everyone is kind of at an equal playing field, an equal level. And so they were very anti the kind of software that we were building. So we had those two strikes against us with were too big to overcome.
Kai Hankinson (00:22:10):
We were making about $5,000 a day in pure poker profit, and we were on our way to getting rich. We just didn't get the money out.
Rob Collie (00:22:21):
So you got poor instead of rich playing poker. Which, when you say it that way, makes it sound like it was predestined. I'm sure you both took that really well. Right? How many years did you have sunk in it at that point?
Brad Miller (00:22:37):
Well, that was about 2008, 2009 around there. So...
Rob Collie (00:22:41):
Wow. That's longer than I realized you guys were at it for four years.
Brad Miller (00:22:46):
Yeah, roughly four years.
Kai Hankinson (00:22:48):
Yeah. Yeah. The hardest part for me was we had raised all our money for that endeavor had come from friends and family.
Rob Collie (00:22:56):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:22:56):
So we were a total loss for our investors. That's one thing that I love about our partnership, Brad and mine, is that we've been through thick and thin together. You know? That's not the only company that we had a bad outcome on. We're on our fifth startup together, and we've had some depressing bankruptcies and some exciting exits, and we've been through it all. I've seen a lot of partnerships break up on the downside. I've seen a lot of partnerships break up on the upside, even. When, all of a sudden when you win and you exit, now there's something to fight over, and partnerships break up. We weathered all that together, we're on our, onto our fifth company together right now.
Rob Collie (00:23:36):
Yeah. That's amazing. Now, just a random side question. What do you know about organic farms in Hawaii?
Kai Hankinson (00:23:46):
Well, after losing all my friends and family's money, I got pretty down on myself, and Brad got right back on the horse and went right into private equity and was off to work the next day. I took a year and a half off of work just to kind of regroup and find myself. I ended up during that year and a half over in Hawaii doing something called WWOOFing. Which is working for free on organic farms. That was a great time in my life. I did a lot of meditating, lot of soul searching.
Rob Collie (00:24:21):
I now know too WWOOFers. Paul, at our company was telling me a similar story one day about, "Well, you know, there's this time where I ended up, you know, over in Hawaii and like, you know, living off the land on this guy's farm that he let us..." And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, wait a second. I've I have heard this story before." What are the odds? I'm a WWOOFer magnet, apparently.
Brad Miller (00:24:46):
I decided to buy a one way ticket to Hawaii. Bought one of those kind of load of the ground trikes. I don't know what you call them, but...
Kai Hankinson (00:24:55):
Recumbent trike.
Brad Miller (00:24:56):
Recumbent trike. Folded it up, put it in a baggage claim, and then was sitting in baggage claim in Hawaii...
Kai Hankinson (00:25:03):
Baggage claim. And then, it was sitting in baggage claim in Hawaii, putting it together. And then as soon as he put it together, he just hit the road and stopped where he stopped.
Brad Miller (00:25:11):
Lived out of a tent. I went months without spending money. It's crazy over there. You can just live off the land, there's avocados and nuts growing everywhere.
Rob Collie (00:25:22):
I really need to try that someday. You're making it sound so good... All right. So poker, Hawaii, private equity and you did something else. What was the next one? Now we're really starting to... AI and ML definitely qualifies as a data thing. There would've been no real reason for our paths to intersect, especially back around 2010. So what were you guys doing in 2010 when we met?
Brad Miller (00:25:57):
At that time, we had gotten back together. I had come out of my hiatus and at the time when we first met, we were running a Facebook app called Page Rage. It exploded in popularity, it was back in the Facebook app days. That used to be a huge thing. I don't know that they still are. And Page Rage was this silly little app that let you color up your Facebook profile which was, as they are today, very uniform with everyone else's and all. And make it look a lot more like a MySpace page, which was the big competitor back then. People loved it.
Brad Miller (00:26:34):
That app exploded and we found ourselves in our second startup together with a lot of big data from all those Page Rage installs.
Kai Hankinson (00:26:43):
I think how did it go? Robert was like, "We just needed a better BI solution." I don't even know if we knew the acronym BI at the time. We just knew we needed a better tool set to help us understand this data. We were using Excel for everything that was after Excel 97. So that's when it went to like a million rows or wait, no. Am I getting the years wrong?
Rob Collie (00:27:05):
2007.
Kai Hankinson (00:27:07):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:27:07):
Excel went to a million rows per sheet.
Kai Hankinson (00:27:10):
That was a game changer for Brad and me. I mean, we used Excel for everything and it was limited to 70,000 rows or something prior to that. But then we quickly outgrew the million rows and that's when we started circling around and I ended up finding you Rob online. And I called you and as it would turn out, you were the program manager on our favorite software tool, that Excel 2007 version, I think. Is that right?
Rob Collie (00:27:38):
Yeah. You see, this is great. You tell people the truth about yourself, like what you did at Microsoft. And then you just sit back and watch as your legend grows. There's an important word, he says, "You were the program manager." Well, I was a program manager on Excel. There were like 15 of us. Now, I was pretty senior on that team and I had things I was in charge of. I was in charge of the BI features in Excel, that kind of thing. But it does sound a lot better when you say it. "You were the program manager for Excel." And so when you introduced me that way and you've done that now a million times with other people, I just let it go.
Rob Collie (00:28:18):
I mean, of course, why would I interrupt you while you're... I said a program manager, you heard the program manager and you were dually impressed. I was working as the CTO of my first startup at the time. I had left Microsoft among other things, I had seen the promise of this Power Pivot thing that we've been working on. And so I was at a startup that was leveraging Power Pivot, as its primary software. They told me as part of my employment deal, that I was allowed to do some consulting. Okay, great. But I hadn't done any, I hadn't actually done any.
Rob Collie (00:28:55):
And so you guys and you know this, but for the benefit of the people listening, you guys were the absolute first clients of P3. And I didn't tell you that at the time. In fact, I even tried to get you to hire someone else instead of me, that's how good of a businessman I am, right? Like, "Nah, you don't want to hire me. There's a guy in San Diego who'll do a great job." And so I just point you his way. I tried to have you not hire me and you hired the other guy, didn't you? It didn't go well.
Brad Miller (00:29:26):
Hired and fired.
Rob Collie (00:29:28):
You called me back and said, "No, really, you should take our money, Rob. Really, you should take it." And I said, "Okay, fine." And I was just absolutely stunned at what you guys were doing. It was just the three of us in a conference room for two days. There were other people in the office, around and about, but it was just the three of us the whole time. I remember this moment where it started to dawn on me, what you guys were doing. And the scale of it, when we were looking at the number of active add-ons. The number of Page Rage add-ons that were out in the universe, calling home, letting you know they were still alive.
Rob Collie (00:30:09):
I don't remember what the number was, but it was like double digit millions. In 2010, it was October of 2010, something like 60 million. Was it 60 million? Was it 100 million? I don't remember, but it was just I had never heard of it. I had never heard of Page Rage. And yet there were like 100 million humans or 100 million devices out there in the world running your Page Rage software. I was just like, "What?"
Kai Hankinson (00:30:37):
Yeah. It was some mind boggling scale. It never ceased to me, how big the world is. It's hard to wrap your brain around it.
Rob Collie (00:30:46):
Well, wrapping your head around how large the world is, is one thing. Wrapping your head around, there's a reasonably good chance that if I meet a human being on the street, they're running my software, that's a different thing. You guys were paying what? You paid Snoop Dogg to tweet about how good his Facebook page was looking today, thanks to Page Rage and stuff like that, right? I mean, you guys were doing something next level. It certainly got my attention.
Kai Hankinson (00:31:15):
We had just got a written, the code tails basically, of Facebook. Because, this was right when Facebook was just exploding. And so we were writing their code tails. I think at our peak, we got up to 250 employees. And it was fast, it happened in a matter of two, three years. The Snoop story is funny. That whole influencer model is a lot more prevalent today than it was back then. But he was one of the OGs back in the day. And you would pay him to tweet something out, but he would make you come up with the tweet. So we had 50 white software engineers in San Diego, coming up with Snoop's tweet, which was pretty hilarious.
Rob Collie (00:31:59):
I'm sure it sounded very authentic.
Brad Miller (00:32:02):
We had experience passing that touring test, though.
Rob Collie (00:32:05):
Yeah. There you go, there you go. Are you Snoop? Check here if yes. So the financial transaction in that engagement, went my direction. Money came my way, you guys paid me. But I definitely benefited more from it than you did.
Brad Miller (00:32:20):
That's an understatement, Rob.
Rob Collie (00:32:21):
Yeah, I know. We'll get to that. We're going to drag my name through the mud, don't you worry, we're going to do a thorough job. I have a saying that I have been saying now for 10 plus years. Which is that, human beings do not know what they need until they have seen what they asked for. And the very first time this thought occurred to me was when I was working with you guys. We sat down with what has ultimately become our jumpstart methodology. Which, boil it down in layperson's terms is really just, just get started, is the philosophy.
Rob Collie (00:32:56):
Which we loaded a bunch of your data and the Power Pivot engine, the DAX engine, you did a great job chewing up tens of millions, hundreds of millions of rows. It was great. It was doing everything that you wanted in that regard. We got to a point where we had the chart, the pivot table, whatever that you guys had wanted that you'd described from the beginning. And then as soon as you saw it, you're like, "Ah, no. That's my not quite right. We need to blah, blah, blah, compensate for this, filter, that." That kind of thing. And we tore through four, five, six, maybe even 10 iterations like that in rapid fashion.
Rob Collie (00:33:33):
And got you to a place where you were looking at something that you wouldn't have even known to have asked for. And it was clear that you guys were really sharp, so it wasn't a failure of brain power. It was just a basic limitation of human capability. You need to see something that you asked for and then realize, this isn't good enough. There was one other thing that happened at the end of that, which was that you guys realized at that 10th iteration or whatever, which didn't take very long. That, "Oh my gosh, we're not even collecting the data that we need to answer the problem."
Rob Collie (00:34:10):
You probably don't remember this, but it was a really formative moment for me. Where, you guys realized that you needed to have an extra column of data that wasn't being reported by the add-ons. So you had to go back and modify the add-on code. So that in the future ad, when they called home and sort of reported on their health or whatever, their activity. That you'd have the raw data to do what you needed to do. And it was just crazy to me and how fast that happened in the course of those two days. We went from thinking you needed X to realizing you needed X to the 10th derivative.
Rob Collie (00:34:45):
And then even that going, "You know what? Not good enough." These ever rising standards, the ability to be greedy and truly chase some thing to the end of where it needs to go and watching it play out. And it just had never, ever, ever worked like that in traditional BI. In traditional BI, you don't even make it to derivative two, you just never get there. You get exhausted, you get worn out, there's just too much time, too much expense. And you certainly never get there with regular Excel either. Because, of all the elbow grease that has to go into every single thing that you do.
Rob Collie (00:35:21):
And I was just like, I left there even more in and I'd already chosen to bet my career on this stuff, right? But I left San Diego even more in. But of course, it didn't take with you guys, right? A week later, how long was it before you stopped thinking about Power Pivot?
Kai Hankinson (00:35:41):
We just couldn't do it without you in the room. I mean, it was just so hard for our company to adopt those early stages. And I don't know if it's because the product was a little bit immature, it's evolved quite a bit or we had a shitty teach.
Rob Collie (00:36:00):
You mean the first guy before I came out there? I agree. You totally did.
Kai Hankinson (00:36:04):
I don't know. I'm thinking about your second consulting engagement. It didn't take the first time, we're like... But you sold us on the revolution, you sold us on the vision. We wanted what you were selling. We just didn't pick it up on that first trip. So we brought you out for a second trip and it was a two day consulting engagement. And the first day happened to coincide with the day I was throwing a company party at my house.
Rob Collie (00:36:32):
Oh no. Hold on now, you've got this all wrong. You're talking about the third time that I came out to try to make it stick with you guys. There was already a second time-
Kai Hankinson (00:36:43):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:36:43):
In between. You're talking about failure number three.
Kai Hankinson (00:36:47):
Okay.
Rob Collie (00:36:48):
The real problem with you guys and your adoption of this, was that you just had too many resources. You had too little time, which is common to everybody. You had too little time to learn something particularly new, right? If you had to learn Excel from scratch on the spot, it would be hard to take that as well. Takes years to get good at Excel. But the other thing is that you just had developers laying around, left and right. You just had too many technical developers that you could go to them and say, "Hey, I want you to write some code to take this data and turn it into a chart."
Rob Collie (00:37:21):
And it's like addiction in a way. It always seems like it's the cheapest move, to go ask the developer that you've already got to do something for you. And it is. At that moment, it is the short term cheapest move. But you're stuck in this relative minimum. You're just stuck in this gravity well.
Kai Hankinson (00:37:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:37:39):
Where, if you do take the time to escape it, you end up in a much different place in a much better place. But I just couldn't break you guys of that, we're surrounded by developers crack pipe. I didn't have the right treatment plan for you. So that was the second mission, right? I came out the second time and you had even more people there. And my job was to convince, not just you, but also the new guy. And so we did that, he wasn't really all that convinced. And then you still had the developers. Because, you guys just kept getting back on that horse.
Rob Collie (00:38:11):
You kept falling off and getting bruised and then you're like, "Oh we should call them out again." And I'm like, "Okay, great. Let's go. I always enjoy visiting you, let's do it." So yeah, the longtime blog readers have even seen a picture of the shame that Kai's about to describe. If you've been around reading the Power Pivot Pro blog from the beginning, I sneaked a picture in of this. So go ahead Kai, embarrass me.
Kai Hankinson (00:38:38):
I'm sure you had a lot of anxiety. This was your third attempt, you had failed miserably the first two times with your first client. We invited you out to my house with the whole company and I'm just going to leave it at, you drank more than anyone in my company.
Rob Collie (00:38:57):
Lifetime.
Kai Hankinson (00:39:01):
You weren't anxious at the end. But I ended up having to drive you home and then pick you up the next morning to come back for day two of your consulting engagement.
Rob Collie (00:39:10):
In my rental car, by the way, right? You picked me up the next morning in my rental car.
Kai Hankinson (00:39:16):
When I saw you that next morning, I understood that day two was off. You were just going to be physically present.
Rob Collie (00:39:26):
And you paid me anyway.
Kai Hankinson (00:39:28):
It was the right thing to do.
Rob Collie (00:39:31):
And you invited me both days actually that I was there, to your after or noon KPI meetings. Which again, I learned something you were paying me to learn. It was awesome, I really appreciate that. You guys are the best. You had like 20 charts that you looked at every single day at four o'clock in the afternoon. And it was the same 20 charts, every day and there were like 10 people in the room.
Kai Hankinson (00:39:57):
About 20, easily.
Rob Collie (00:39:58):
Okay, yeah. It was a big room.
Kai Hankinson (00:40:00):
Huge meeting.
Rob Collie (00:40:01):
And there was no interactivity, you couldn't drill down on a chart. That's why there were 20 charts. It's because you probably had started with five charts.
Brad Miller (00:40:08):
There were probably 50 times four. There were probably 50 slides with four on slides, probably 200 charts.
Rob Collie (00:40:17):
Right. You didn't start with 200 charts on the first day of the KPI. There's 10 charts and you're like, "Ah man, these don't answer the questions that we need to follow up." So clearly the answer is more charts. And this is how, by the way, traditional reports explode in traditional BI as well. Like, you got a question? You need a new report. Got a question? You need a new report. Organizations sometimes end up with tens of thousands of reports. Many of which have only been looked at once. Some of them have never been looked at, they were asked for built and never used.
Brad Miller (00:40:48):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:40:49):
And it's all super slow,.but you guys, I was really, really, really rapidly against this. This idea of you'd have 200 static charts. It was in some sense, offensive to me. Because, I was so big on and I still am... On the concept of interactivity in the ability to dynamically ask questions, as opposed to having to build all the charts to answer all the questions, which is a losing game. You never get there. At the same time though, it was a good meeting. I could not say to you that it was a bad meeting or that it would've been better. Because, it was so weird to me that it was the same I guess 200 charts on Thursday that it had been on Wednesday.
Rob Collie (00:41:36):
How much could change in your business in one day that you would look at the same charts? That the conversation was completely different both days.
Kai Hankinson (00:41:44):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:44):
It was super valuable.
Kai Hankinson (00:41:46):
Rich conversation every-
Rob Collie (00:41:48):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:41:48):
Every day at that meeting. I mean, it would just be like either the charts would be stimulating. The changes in the charts would be stimulating the conversation or we'd come to the meeting with business issues that we would then turn to the charts to help us think through.
Rob Collie (00:42:04):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:42:05):
And a quarter of that room was dedicated to supplying that product. That's how it went from five slides to 50 slides. Is like almost every meeting we would put in a request that we'd usually be looking at the next day.
Rob Collie (00:42:20):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:42:21):
Because, we had so much expensive manpower thrown at the problem.
Rob Collie (00:42:25):
I mean, you were in essence, an IT organization from top to bottom. And so when you have that many resources laying around at your disposal, you tend to take that path. But I did, I learned something from that as well. I came back from that experience, having seen the... I also learned, don't eat chocolate cake, birthday cake at the office and that'd be the only thing you eat all day and then go straight to the Cinco de Mayo party at the CEO's house. That's another lesson, don't get into land war in Asia, et cetera, et cetera. But I came back, I realized that I had been too much into the concept of interactivity.
Rob Collie (00:43:06):
I refined something about my stance about all of this. Which was that, any report you produce needs to be useful before you touch it. Before you interact with it, it needs to already be starting the conversation. Whereas before, I was being lazy essentially and I was saying, "Look, if the thing is interactive and it can answer any question, it can just sit there like a slug at the beginning of your relationship with it every day. Staring at you saying, 'Yeah, I know I'm telling you something that doesn't matter to you, but you can ask me the things you really care about.'"
Rob Collie (00:43:40):
And so it was almost like interactivity was required before you could derive anything from a lot of the stuff that I had been producing. That's much closer to where I am today, by default useful. I'm not as obsessed with interactivity, it's table stakes that you'd be able to drill down. But if you have to interact with it before it tells you anything at all, it's a bad design. And so again, you paid me, I drank your booze, I came home wiser and you guys didn't adopt it.
Kai Hankinson (00:44:10):
Yeah. I mean, you certainly helped convince us that we were on the right path to be using the big data, to answer our questions. And we were sold on the vision that you were high priesting.
Rob Collie (00:44:21):
You say 'we', but let's be clear. You weren't both as equally in, were you? One of you is a little bit more skeptical than the other, that's true, yes?
Brad Miller (00:44:31):
I think that's true, but I will give you some credit though. I will say that, you have two main parts to your business, right? And we talk about this a lot when we work on the search advertising for you guys. You have your training side of the business and you have your consulting side of the business. And so, when we kept bringing you back, it wasn't just for your fun personality. It was for the consulting side of the business. And so while we weren't yet sold on being trained on the tool, there's a whole side of your guys' business, where you do provide a lot of value just through consulting.
Brad Miller (00:45:11):
You guys are experts in your field and so when Kai and I are able to sit in a room with you and talk to you about data and BI for hours at a time, that is super helpful to us, tool or no tool.
Rob Collie (00:45:25):
I appreciate that, that truly actually really is flattering. I always felt like I was learning, interacting with you guys more than you were. And that's just sort of the nature of imposter syndrome, but you're right. That's another thing that's different; if you all met our company today, things would go differently. Even if you were in exactly the same spot that you were in, in 2010. Things would go differently today because at the time, I had a day job, right? I couldn't devote a whole lot of time to you. So it was just like, "Look, I'll come out and tell you some things and leave you some stuff.
Rob Collie (00:45:55):
And then you're on your own." That's how the company started. The first three years, I was still full time employed elsewhere. But now this is what we do. This is what we do all the time. And so we would have the time to dedicate a consultant or maybe even multiple consultants to helping you on an ongoing basis. Even with fractions of their time, it wills till be a lot more than what I could have allocated back then. And we would just do stuff for you now.
Brad Miller (00:46:21):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:46:21):
There'd be more continuity there and I think it would've gone a lot differently.
Brad Miller (00:46:25):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (00:46:25):
Was it next that you got accidentally added to Brad's bachelor party invitation?
Rob Collie (00:46:30):
Yeah. He's been really kind about never admitting that mistake.
Kai Hankinson (00:46:33):
And I'm pretty sure it was on purpose. But you were convinced it was an accident that you got invited, to Burning Man.
Rob Collie (00:46:39):
Honestly, the reason why I was like a Tinder box ready to explode on that fateful Cinco de Mayo, is just, it wasn't just a professional decision leaving Microsoft. I'd been through some really, really tough divorce and family stuff. And I was away from all of my friends and I wasn't in Seattle anymore, I was in Cleveland. Essentially by myself and hanging out with you guys every time you guys would bring me out there. Hanging out with you guys was the best thing that had happened to me in years, it was just great. I've told you guys this, but I would have dreams in which I was out there working with you guys, living out there, hanging out with you. That was how much, that's how strong the pull was.
Rob Collie (00:47:24):
Those were tough years. Out there hanging out in San Diego of all places. Leave Cleveland, get off the plane in San Diego and be like, "Oh my God." And then it just felt like living a completely different life. "Oh yeah, of course. I'm going to go to the CEO's house for Cinco de Mayo party. It's on the Pacific ocean?" "Yeah. It's on the Pacific ocean. We're just hanging out in the front yard on the Pacific ocean." "Hand me that margarita." Everything was predestined from that point forward. I mean, I was in need of an outlet and boy, did I find one. When I got the bachelor party invite, I mean, it was just too good to be true in a way, right?
Rob Collie (00:48:07):
Brad wants me to go a Burning Man with him? And there were so many people on this email. I remember it being, I just assumed that Brad has 1,000 friends, it probably wasn't that many. But I just remember it as being like 300 people on the email or something. And so it was so easy to fat finger that and include the wrong Rob or something.
Brad Miller (00:48:32):
I definitely did not include the wrong Rob. There were a lot of people on the email because I wasn't sure what the response was going to be when I had my bachelor party at Burning Man, because it was 2015. And so, I just invited everyone from my life, going back to high school that I really liked and really wanted to be there. Even if I hadn't seen the person in 10 years, I wanted to invite them. Because if they wanted to go, I wanted them to be there. So there were a lot on there, but they weren't 300.
Rob Collie (00:49:04):
Okay. And this is really something I appreciate about you, Brad; is just, you're really good at setting aside everything that doesn't matter. And just focusing on what would be the most human and fun thing? You don't get hung up on, "Oh, is it weird to invite these people, I haven't seen you in a while?" You just set that aside. That didn't get in your way.
Brad Miller (00:49:28):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:49:28):
And so then I did the responsible thing and not read your emails. As soon as it started to become real, I started to get terrified. Like, "Oh my God, I'm not Burning Man material." And you talked me into it.
Kai Hankinson (00:49:41):
What a trip.
Rob Collie (00:49:43):
Yeah.
Brad Miller (00:49:44):
[inaudible 00:49:44] with 18 of us going and only one had ever been before. He had only been one time with his 80 year old dad back in the day.
Rob Collie (00:49:53):
That was when we finally dispensed with the idea of, this isn't a professional client relationship. This is a friendship.
Kai Hankinson (00:50:03):
That saved us...
Rob Collie (00:50:03):
Well, client relationship this is a friendship
Brad Miller (00:50:03):
That saved us a lot of money.
Rob Collie (00:50:05):
It did. A lot of failure, you got out of the Facebook business. Facebook had something to do with that, right? You were riding their coattails. One day they turned around, and said, "Hey, get off my coattails."
Brad Miller (00:50:19):
Yeah. They did not like our business model. They did not like us covering their ads with our ads, that was coming to an end, but before we ended up selling that company, and we had a nice exit from that one. We had these 60, 100 million add-ons that had downloaded our software. We were looking for ways to pivot, we were looking for ways to expand, and so at some point, Kai said, "Brad, I'm giving you three or four resources. I'm sending you down to the basement for three months. You're going to do essentially a consulting project, and figure out where we're going next. You're not allowed to talk to anyone else in the company, you just of focus on this." We went down, we spent three or four months on it, and we came up with two ideas.
Brad Miller (00:51:08):
One was a data analytics company, because we just had so much data coming down from these add-ons that like, there was something to do with this data. We ended up exiting that company, and selling it to a company in New York. Then the other spinoff was what's today Agree Media, which is in the lead generation space, having so much data, one of the things we could do with that data is identify possible leads for various industries and verticals. That was the original seed of Agree. After we sold off the main company, the big company, Kai, and I bought out our other partners, and so now we're just owners in Agree, 50-50.
Rob Collie (00:51:50):
Yeah. That timeframe, when you were in the basement, I remember this because this is when I was out there, when I was contemplating, and in the final stages of contemplating leaving the startup I was at and turning P3 into its own distinct entity full time commit to it, that kind of thing. This was in like 2013. Does that sound about right? I just remember when I was out there pitching you guys on being an investor in my company, which in the end we decided we didn't need any investment, but you guys had such great success pitching your friends and family on investing in your companies. I just said, Hey, I'll return the favor. Agree Media. This is why we're here. What is it? We've taken an hour to get around to the crux of it.
Rob Collie (00:52:39):
When I talk about you guys in Agree Media, to the people who don't know you, I describe you as experts in data driven advertising. People who know the internet advertising space really better than anyone is how I queued it up. You say, it's lead generation. You didn't say, Hey, here's the idea. Let's get really good at advertising. Let's get really good at digital advertising. Let's get really good at digital marketing. That wasn't the goal. That's not what you came out of the basement with. Right. You came out of the basement with, we should be a lead gen business.
Brad Miller (00:53:16):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:17):
Tell us a little bit about the advertising operation.
Brad Miller (00:53:21):
Yeah. I mean the lead generation business is interesting because one example where it struck home with me was like, you go to various conferences for whatever industry you're in. Right? With the prior software development company that we were working at, that we owned, we'd go to these conferences, and it would be guys in their early twenties, and hoodies, and the whole Mark Zuckerberg look right. Everyone at the conference, the first lead generation conference we went to, the big one is called LeadsCon. We show up, and everyone's either in a suit or a sports coat with tie and shirts. We're like, what's going on here? They're like, we've never seen this before. I've never been to a conference, like where people aren't in hoodies.
Brad Miller (00:54:10):
It turns out that the lead generation business had been around long before the internet, right? I mean, guys were sending out flyers in the mail, and there was a bunch of other ways to advertise pre-internet, and lead generation business has been around forever. That's the Genesis of where most of those folks had come from. Whereas our background is much more finance, quantitative analysis, software development, artificial intelligence that kind of thing. Instead of coming at it from a marketing bent, we're coming at it from that data analysis AI bent, which has given us, I think, a competitive advantage in the industry. We use that primarily on our own in-house proprietary systems, as well as when we're hooking up with Google, Facebook, Instagram platforms.
Rob Collie (00:55:03):
I've never heard that part before. That's new to me. It reminded me of, have you seen Glengarry, Glen Ross?
Brad Miller (00:55:10):
Not in a while, but yeah.
Rob Collie (00:55:11):
They now disgraced Kevin Spacey, is holding like a box in his hand and says, "No, these aren't, those other leads, those crappy leads. These are the Glengarry leads. You're not worth it. I'm not going to even share them with you. Because you're so rookie." What a hardcore movie that was really. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the Glengarry leads did not come from a digital system. I'm pretty sure, they came from some other shady thing. I have no idea what it would be, but he holds them like they're gold.
Brad Miller (00:55:44):
That's the other thing we love about the lead gen business is that other forms of advertising, whether it's television, billboards, print, whatever it was, it was like, there was no real way to quantify the success of those campaigns. Right? Most of where the money was made was like, you had a good salesman who was taking people out for lunch, and drinking martinis mad men style, and convincing them that their campaigns are working. They were rough numbers. You really couldn't see anything down to any level of detail, obviously, because it's all offline. In the lead gen business, it doesn't require much sales, sorry, Tim, our sales guy, I don't mean to throw you under the bus, but like Kai and I, that's not our forte. Right. In the lead gen business, if the numbers back out, and you're sending the quality, you will get the bigger order, and they will pay more. If the numbers don't back out, they won't. Taking out that salesy middle man was really a feeling to us.
Rob Collie (00:56:50):
This is a theme across all business, right. Is that in the world of offline lead gen where you just have a good set else, person, you can't lose. If you're the lead provider, if you're the lead consumer, you can absolutely lose. You'll never know it, but it's like, I got you some leads, and your business improved. Well that's me. I did that. Oh, I got you some leads, and your business didn't improve. Oh man. Imagine how much worse it would've been. If I hadn't gotten you, those leads he just got a story for everything. A lot of people are even though no one wants to talk about it or admit it, there's still a lot of very important decisions being made in the business world every day that are basically done like that. There's still a lot of gold rush opportunity everywhere.
Brad Miller (00:57:35):
Yeah, probably about, I don't know, two or three years ago for the first few years of the company, we were primarily Facebook in terms of our advertising. We were strictly social advertising, Facebook, and then Instagram, maybe two or three years ago, we realized that we had to diversify into Google search for two reasons. One for diversification, two for quality. Facebook is much higher in the funnel. You're hitting someone up in their newsfeed and they're not looking to go back to school at that moment, but something catches their eye, and then they might go check it out. Whereas, Google someone is searching. I want to go back and get my cosmetology license. There's a ton more intent there, much lower in the funnel. The quality of those leads are much higher. We're primarily in the for-profit EDU space. Education vertical, so our customers are names, University of Phoenix, DeVry Art Institute, those kind of schools. They were looking higher quality, and so we transitioned to Google. Now we're about, I'd say 20% Facebook, Instagram, and about 80% Google. We used to be Google AdWords. It's now Google Ads.
Rob Collie (00:58:52):
You guys have put Sally Struthers out of a job. Remember those old ads on TV where she would go, "Do you want to make money? Sure. We all do." Then she'd run through all of these things that, there was always gun repair, gun repair was always one of the options that was on that she was advertising. You talk about a primitive model, right? How did they ever, that these ads worked, but boy, we saw them for years. Didn't we?
Brad Miller (00:59:17):
Yeah. We gave you what, like your fifth crack at us, at Agree. We like, come on, Rob, come sell us again on this vision for Power BI.
Rob Collie (00:59:26):
That's right. I mean, actually, even at Agree, there were multiple failed attempts. We'd given up on the notion of it being a financial transaction, right. It wasn't how it worked. I'd just come out there, and hang out and we'd spend some time and chit chat. We'd both learn that kind of thing. I mean, even once we get to Agree, there's at least two or three totally aborted attempts at trying to get this stuff to take. Then Brad goes off and he finds self this thing called Periscope it's just traditional reporting with a slicker new look on it. You guys brought me out. I remember saying, "Hey, can we replace these Periscope reports with Power BI?" I'm looking at them in like on the average dashboard, like three of the modules on the dashboard we're reporting, oh, sorry. We failed to load the data in time we timed out.
Rob Collie (01:00:15):
I'm Like, I could probably replace these, but I'm might have a hard time with replicating those performance failures. My stuff's just going to work. All the stuff's just going to return the answers. I suppose we could roll some dice or something behind the scenes, but because you guys now are, are using Power BI very aggressively.
Brad Miller (01:00:32):
Every day.
Rob Collie (01:00:33):
Even here I don't get to claim credit for it. It was almost, we had to maintain the joke or something. Like if you guys were going to start using it, we would need someone else to have helped you so that we can say that I still was O for 10 with you guys. Ultimately I think Austin was really crucial and really nudging plus the fact that the matter is, is that just because I was first. I was, I was like the first professional in the world dedicated to what is now called Power BI.
Rob Collie (01:01:04):
I was the only person that was like saying, this is the only thing I do. My only source of money. I was first. That doesn't mean that would never translate to being best. I was pretty good. I was pretty good, but people we hire are better. I am absolutely the worst at these tools of the people at my company. I think that's great, takes a lot of pressure off me. Austin was definitely one of those. He's better at it. He was able to make progress with you quickly. His goal was to build stuff with you, which I never had time for.
Brad Miller (01:01:37):
Yeah. Austin was key from your side, and then Sean, our head of BI slash CFO was key from our side, so putting those two together, really helped us turn the corner.
Rob Collie (01:01:52):
By the way, I love that head of BI slash CFO. That's the future, business intelligence owned on the business side or at least driven from that side, supported from the IT side. For sure. You guys don't have a huge footprint of people, but that's your model you're already running on the model that the world is inexorably heading for. You're seeing so many more of these hybrid titles that you just would never have seen before.
Rob Collie (01:02:23):
I think that's really exciting, and yeah, Sean has really, really, really, really taken to this stuff. What are the sorts of things that you look at in Power BI? Because you know, Hey, I was going to ask the juicy softball question. I mean, but seriously doesn't Google just provide you with all of the reporting that you need. I mean, AdWords has got a reporting portal. Why do you need Power BI?
Kai Hankinson (01:02:45):
What don't we look at in Power BI these days? It's really got to the point where we almost exclusively, answer our questions with Power BI. What we found is that, sometimes you'll have these situations where a DBA could bang out a slightly quicker answer with a sequel query, but we've learned the hard way that, if you just put the little bit of extra time, and it's not much, but just a little bit of extra effort it into answer that question with a Power BI model, it will just pay dividends.
Kai Hankinson (01:03:20):
You will be able to keep asking it questions, and you'll be able to ask the next version of the question, and they get easier and easier to build each time. We are using Power BI for all our BI at this point, and we love it. It's like we're finally living the revolution you promised us back in 2010, it took us a long time to get there.
Kai Hankinson (01:03:46):
One of the reasons the AdWords portal isn't sufficient is that, we need to stitch that data together with what happens on our side, what happens those ad clicks once they get to our website, which ones drop off, where do they drop off? Which ones become leads, where do they become leads in? Which schools are they matched to? Even then we get the offline data that we have to collect and bring back in and import into Power BI, which is, well, what happened after we sold the lead, which leads applied at the school, which leads enrolled in school, which leads actually started.
Kai Hankinson (01:04:21):
We get data all the way down to, they pass their first class even. So we need to stitch that full conversion funnel if you will, together. And AdWords only has some of it.
Rob Collie (01:04:32):
That is the thing so often is that it's so rare that there's a report that's useful that truly helps you. That is sourced from only one system. Anything valuable is almost always going to span at least two systems. You're talking about just in that quick survey, there were at least three systems and one of the systems doesn't even belong to you.
Rob Collie (01:04:59):
It's your customer's systems that are reporting back to you about like, well, you sold us a hundred Glengarry leads, but they actually felt more like Glen Ross or vice versa, right? So you get a quality feedback on a longer time scale. But, but you need to use that to steer because if you deliver poor quality over time, your customers are going to stop buying from you.
Rob Collie (01:05:22):
And so if you can't span silos with your BI, if you can't span silos with your reporting, you're all always looking at one part of an elephant going like, "Is this an elephant? I don't know. It's gray. Could be a rhino, no idea.@.
Rob Collie (01:05:39):
And so I'm really happy that you guys have gotten to that. And you and you operated at a pretty impressive scale. You guys can't even use certain commonly available integration tools like stitch for instance, because they have some cap that I'm sure when they set that cap, the engineering team said to themselves, no one's ever going to need more than this. They said it to be 10 times what we think anyone would ever possibly humanly need, right? It's like 10,000 ad groups or something like that. Is there limitation and you guys are like, please 10,000 ad groups.
Kai Hankinson (01:06:19):
We have some proprietary technologies that we developed to leverage the AdWords platform. It's driven us to have to come up with some elaborate structures over at AdWords that involve hundreds of thousands of ad groups and campaigns keywords. And in order for them to be able to support the kind of integration with our technologies that are... we live by a philosophy of AdWords whereby we think that the smart bidding technology artificial intelligence is that Google has built is some of the smartest AI in the world.
Kai Hankinson (01:06:57):
I mean, it is just so, so powerful at doing what we need it to do, which is to go out and bid the right amount on the ads that we run. Bid the right amount for the right user at the right time on the right device, all those things. And we believe wholeheartedly that if you're going to succeed, you have to be leveraging their smarts to the max.
Kai Hankinson (01:07:20):
But then there's also a component of, there are things that we know, not many, but there are things we know that Google doesn't know about our business. We know that that customer just canceled this other customer, close their calls there for labor day. We know we just got a double size order on our Chicago school.
Kai Hankinson (01:07:40):
We've set up the mechanisms whereby Google's Smart Bidding will learn those things over time, but that's just it, it's going to take time. So we will elaborate technologies that us to leverage their smarts while still injecting ours. And that's a tricky thing to do because it's easy to clobbered their smarts and be like, we're switching Google onto CPC bidding instead of Smart [TiBO 01:08:03] as bidding or whatnot.
Kai Hankinson (01:08:05):
But now you've just clobbered their smarts and you're not leveraging the best of both. So, that's been one of our driving philosophies there. That's driven the elaborate structures that have taken us beyond some of the caps in many of the products out there, like stitch being one of them, Stitch data.
Rob Collie (01:08:20):
I even love the names you guys have come up with for some of your proprietary stuff. It is just as a terminology guy. I got mad respect for things like probabilistic pixel and denominator, even Trillions with capital T. I mean, it's hot. You guys have got good naming game
Brad Miller (01:08:41):
[Redon 01:08:41], don't forget about Redon.
Rob Collie (01:08:43):
Ooh, I never heard about Redon. You we'll have to talk about that later. I need to know is PG 13, is it Patrick Swayze? Is it, I mean, just let's leave that. But, one of the things that's impresses me about you guys and there's many things obviously, but you guys are just so into the weeds, into the Twilight zone of all of this. Your intuitions and everything. You've spent so many years building them up and learning the way in building all this technology and proprietary techniques and everything for optimizing your ads, you still keep hiring experimentally.
Rob Collie (01:09:19):
You keep hiring third party ad agencies, ad optimizing services to see if they can do better than you. I mean, so many times when I visited you, like you've been on the phone and interviewing like just some... Oh this is this other firm we're thinking about trying out, just the humility and also just the stamina that it takes to keep doing that.
Rob Collie (01:09:46):
And it's worth noting that you're still doing that. You're still trying it. If you could get out of the business of managing ads and just be like the leads clearing house, you probably prefer that in a way, no one's ever come along that's that's been able to do better than you. And so you just keep getting better at your own stuff.
Brad Miller (01:10:05):
Yeah. I don't know if we would prefer to get out of it. I mean people tend to do what they love. If I was kind of retired and really rich and I wanted to spend a few hours a day doing something like this is probably what I choose to do, right. Is to dive into some huge, powerful platform and start pivoting stuff and figuring out. It's my version of a, that's the way I would spend my hobby time. It's like, but I get to do it at work.
Kai Hankinson (01:10:37):
I love my job. I mean, one of the greatest things about working at Agree is we're only a team of 12 right now, but we've pulled everyone forward from a prior company. In some cases we pulled them forward from two prior companies. So it's the best of the best that we get to work with.
Kai Hankinson (01:10:56):
We've probably employed like 600 people together over the years, or maybe more. And these are some of the 12 best. We get to spend all day every day, solving fun problems with good people. It's a dream come true. I've learned over the years with our startups that we both love and do best at a specific type of business challenge. We do best when it's like a high volume of transactions with a quick feedback loop because those are the pro that you can just really work the data to kill.
Kai Hankinson (01:11:31):
It's like, I need that quick feedback loop or else... is just going to be such a slow cycle of improvement. And I need the high volume of transactions to drown out the luck factor. I learned that at the poker company, I just couldn't to believe I used to love table poker prior to running that poker company. And it almost ruined table poker for me, because we would see these runs, these bad luck runs that would just blow your mind. We would have different versions of our software. So we'd be like running version 53.2 for a week.
Kai Hankinson (01:12:07):
And kicking, come Monday, all of a sudden what happens? We're losing money. Why are we losing money? We're just spending all day diving to the data. This doesn't make sense. How can we be losing money?
Kai Hankinson (01:12:18):
We're running the same version that crushed last week, nothing's changed. We're checking all these things. Tuesday get killed again. This doesn't make sense. We made money every day. Wednesday, all of a sudden, after 300,000 hands, our luck turns. It goes back to the whole way of just churning out the profit day after day. Luck is such a factor and you need that high volume of transactions to drown it out. If my success depends on whether or not this one big commercial sale closes this quarter, Ugh. I just don't like sleeping with all that.
Brad Miller (01:12:54):
To answer your question from earlier, we're currently bidding on 17 million keywords in 2 million ad groups.
Rob Collie (01:13:01):
Wow. Yeah. 10,000 is cute. Isn't it? It's so cute. Yeah. If you let us have 200 accounts, merge them somehow we can use your service. So let's see if we can check the check boxes. First of all, you guys are like, "Ah, I don't want to be in any sort of hourly business," like that professional services business. So that's something you want to avoid. You want tens of thousands of trials a day and you also need almost a near immediate feedback. You have now described the exact antithesis of our business at P3.
Brad Miller (01:13:44):
I got one more for you that'll fit in that category too.
Rob Collie (01:13:47):
All right. All right. Bring it.
Brad Miller (01:13:49):
When we developed the poker software, we could have licensed it to someone else. Right. And let them play poker with our software, but we decided if it's that good and we're building it, we might as well use it to trade ourselves.
Brad Miller (01:14:04):
And so up until now, and I know we're working a little bit together with you, but up until now, we're like, "Look, if we're that good at AdWords and Facebook and digital marketing, let's just use it ourselves as opposed to doing it for someone else."
Rob Collie (01:14:16):
That's right. Yeah. We've been sort of inching our way towards as I say it finding a reason to risk our friendship. That's what you do. When you get into business together. You want to ruin a personal relationship. You really want to ruin it like permanently. I suggest going into business together. And so like moths to flame, we've been slowly inching towards this really slowly, but at least with our eyes open.
Rob Collie (01:14:42):
So we've been collaborating, we've been providing Agree with additional Power BI support and you all have been helping us by architecting and advising, et cetera, et cetera on our advertising campaigns, which is somewhat unusual for professional services firm.
Kai Hankinson (01:15:00):
Who did you send to help Agree? Of course...
Kai Hankinson (01:15:03):
This is firm.
Rob Collie (01:15:03):
Who did you send to help agree? Of course, your woofer.
Kai Hankinson (01:15:05):
That's right. We sent Paul. We're like, "Okay, we've got an in here. These are two guys that know how to dumpster dive in Hawaii."
Rob Collie (01:15:15):
[inaudible 01:15:15] has been great. He's really taken us to the next level.
Kai Hankinson (01:15:19):
Well, like you said, you've hired 600 people over the years and you're down to like 12, that's essentially like our interview pass rate as well. We're like in the 1%-2% range.
Rob Collie (01:15:31):
Wow. And so, that's that similarly filtered group. We all say it, we're the only office we would ever go back to. And we're all over the country. With a 1% pass rate, you can't hire in one spot. You can't say, "Oh, it's got to be in Indy, wherever I happen to be living at the moment." People all over the country, full-time employees, no office. And if there were an office with all these people in it we'd actually want to go to it. But yeah, we've been saying, "Hey, let's take your advertising expertise and let's apply it, both to help the P3 business but also as a completely different test case than the industry that you've been in."
Rob Collie (01:16:13):
Let try it with when there isn't the 17 million keyword volume. There isn't that massive volume. Let's try it. When there isn't instant feedback. We're not running an e-commerce business. It's ultimately a relationship business. We have this thing at our company. We like talk about how people say nobody believed in us. Nobody gave us a chance. I don't know how many times I've been told you can't run a professional services business this way. You can't start relationships over the internet, but we can because once you try us you understand that there's nothing like us.
Rob Collie (01:16:50):
How do we get people to try us? How do we get more people to try us? And it's been very effective for us, for our business model. It's not been easy. And the whole time we were talking about all these hard lessons you had to learn about bad luck, and needing volume, and all of that. They're really echoing in my head because, I think Brad's favorite way to start a sentence with me is something to the effect of, "Well, you'd think that would be a good idea, but..." Right? This is what I do, I come up with ideas or suggestions and then, way more often than a coin flip would indicate, my ideas are bad.
Rob Collie (01:17:28):
And so, because that subject matter expertise that you... You're not just looking at spreadsheets, or Power BI reports, and turning knobs like robots. You're having to blend this with, what's basically, a decade and a half of experience being in this digital marketing world. This digital world. It's hard. It is hard. And I know that I take a toll on Brad with my, "Oh, come on." Right? Like, " Shouldn't we do X, Y, Z?" And he's just so exasperated with me.
Brad Miller (01:18:05):
Yeah. What we spend most of our day doing, or at least what I spend most of my day doing, is trying to figure out what's going on in the black box over at Google. Those guys have built something that's essentially taking over the world. The robots are coming. No one really knows. No one knows what they've built over there. It's taken hundreds of engineers and a bunch of marketing people to write up the documents. But we've done several trips over there and tried to track down someone that has a thorough understanding of what's going on under that hood. And the AI is just, it's taking over. So it's kind of figuring out what it's doing and trying to play nice with it.
Rob Collie (01:18:53):
I read recently there was like some AI that was able to look at a scan of like a retina or something. Was this something you guys told me about? You look at your retina or something and tell you... It was something ridiculous, it could tell you whether or not you had cancer or something.
Kai Hankinson (01:19:10):
Gender?
Rob Collie (01:19:11):
Maybe it was gender. But the point is the human beings looking at it, even though it was deadly accurate, no one could understand what the AI was seeing.
Kai Hankinson (01:19:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:19:20):
The human beings that built it don't know how it's doing it. And this is where Skynet comes from. Right? One day Google becomes self-aware, the AdWords platform, and it starts turning the entire earth into a giant conversion funnel. Then we're all paperclips, all the way down.
Brad Miller (01:19:43):
It's interesting to note the differences between Google and Facebook. And I don't know if we have time or interest.
Rob Collie (01:19:49):
Sure. Why not? You do operate on both platforms and they have similarities, but they're of course, very different. Probably more different than similar. What does that end up looking like for you?
Brad Miller (01:20:01):
It looks like a lot more work on Google. We'd probably spend 95% of our time on Google and 5% of our time on Facebook. Or even less. And that's just based on the design of the two products. They're both so sophisticated and their AI is so advanced, but yet they've implemented in a different way that I would say probably 10 years ago, 5 to 10 years ago, marketing was a very different beast. It was all about, "Okay. I got to figure out who my demographic is. I want to target males 25 to 33, with incomes above X, that live in these zip codes." And whoever could identify their demographics correctly and bid accordingly that was the name of the game that was who won. Now, especially on Facebook, there's none of that anymore. Some of the old school agencies are still doing it that way, just because that's all they know and that's what they've grown up with, but it really doesn't make any sense.
Brad Miller (01:21:02):
So like at Facebook, what we do now is we advertise, someone clicks on our ads, they come through our flow, we get a conversion, we then send back as much information about that conversion as we can through Facebook. Facebook then goes and figures out who to target using their algorithms and their AI. They then figure out who is most similar to that person that just converted for me. So I have no idea, even, who they're going after and no one at Facebook does either, but based on all the hundreds, thousands, millions of different data points that they analyze, they're able to better figure out who to serve that ad to than I would ever be able to just going after males 25 to 32, when incomes over X. So a lot of what we do at Facebook is just content creation, coming up with new ads, different ad copy, that kind of thing. And then you just kind of throw it in and let Facebook work magic.
Kai Hankinson (01:22:08):
Can I jump in, there's something about this Facebook thing... Another thing I've learned from you guys that sort of stuck with me, is this notion that if you're going to try something like a new campaign or something like that, and you create 10 different ads that are just 10 different candidates to try to achieve the same thing. You just try 10 different content strategies. And then you play this game with yourself of predicting ahead of time, rank the 10, how well are they going to perform?
Brad Miller (01:22:33):
And your ability to predict which ones are going to perform or is almost worse than random.
Kai Hankinson (01:22:38):
Oh yeah.
Brad Miller (01:22:38):
The end result is closer to the inverse of your guess than it is to your original guess.
Kai Hankinson (01:22:45):
Yeah.
Brad Miller (01:22:45):
And just really shows how little we actually know and how little you can know. And the value of experimentation. And, as you said before, the value of letting these massive overlord AIs do what they're good at, which no one understands.
Rob Collie (01:23:05):
Yeah. The whole notion of AB testing, for example. If Facebook becomes irrelevant because, well, a lot of times where people get tripped up is, let's just say, I'm testing two ads... Well, let me give you a different example. So one of the programs that we advertise for is cosmetology. It's 90% female. And then another one is pick a mechanical engineering, or something like that, it's predominantly male. Facebook, without doing any demographic targeting on our end, Facebook will figure out to serve that cosmetology ad to a female and that mechanical engineering ad to a male within tens of impressions. You'll spend a few dollars and Facebook will already have figured that out. And if, you can imagine, that's kind of an AB test and you were running that you might get a scenario where the cosmetology ad is doing really well. You're showing it to 80% of the people and it's performing well.
Rob Collie (01:24:10):
The other one is profitable, but it's just not performing as well as the cosmetology ad. So typically, what people would do is they'd call the cosmetology ad a winner and turn off the other one, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to do. Facebook has figured out the subset of people, the minority of people that mechanical engineering ad is best suited for. And that's why you want to leave it running, to show those folks that ad, even though it looks like it lost to the cosmetology ad.
Kai Hankinson (01:24:41):
Yeah. And this is a very difficult thing to internalize. It's a very difficult thing to build into your intuition. And I can speak to this from my own experience. How many times have I come to you and said, "Hey, this thing we're doing is producing a better return than this thing we're doing. Let's turn off the thing that's doing less well."
Brad Miller (01:25:03):
Yeah.
Kai Hankinson (01:25:04):
And pour more money into the thing that's doing better.
Brad Miller (01:25:07):
Yeah. And the one caveat to that is if you are budget constrained and you can only spend a certain amount of budget, by all means, send it to the better one. But assuming you're perfectly fine spending as long as the spend is profitable and you don't have those budget constraints, then you want to leave both going.
Kai Hankinson (01:25:27):
Yeah. If you live in California and you work in an internet startup, you're not constrained by budget. The rest of us, out in the middle of the country, little more constrained by reality. Budget constrained but you guys don't worry about budget that's-
Brad Miller (01:25:43):
Well, I mean, if it's profitable spend, that's the last thing you want to be constrained by. It kills us every time we have a profitable opportunity that we can't throw money at.
Kai Hankinson (01:25:54):
By the way, folks, you might as well just know Brad never lets me turn anything off. If it's the equivalent of setting a pile of money on fire in the backyard, Brad's like, "Uh-uh, no, keep going. It only gets better from here."
Brad Miller (01:26:18):
That's how you make a million ad groups.
Rob Collie (01:26:18):
Yeah. So, that's the Facebook side. So, it's very much "Okay, come up with some new ads." But other than that, it's set it and forget it and let Facebook do its thing. Google, on the other hand, has a million knobs that you could literally spend a lifetime turning. And so, while it's AI is also super powerful, it's just not implemented in the same way that Facebook is because that person is giving you that intent. That person is giving you the signal of saying, "I am looking for cosmetology classes." Whereas you're not getting that signal from the Facebook user.
Kai Hankinson (01:26:57):
Intent makes it more efficient in a lot of ways. But now, like you say, it's so much more tuneable. Even just the choice of keywords, search strings that should trigger your ad versus not. Which of these actually signals the intent to go back to school as a search string? Probably doesn't mean I want to go to cosmetology school. Probably means what are the back to school sales for my kids and things like that. But how do you know? I don't know. You've got to try it.
Brad Miller (01:27:32):
Yep. Exactly. Google is not going to get... You're not going to see any statistical significance at Google. that's one of the difficulties, in that if you have 17 million keywords a tiny fraction of those are going to be spending at the levels where you're going to get any kind of statistical significance to say that that is profitable or not profitable, which is the challenge.
Rob Collie (01:27:56):
Yeah. And so, you've determined that casting a wider net is a good thing. The novice approach to this would be to come in and say, look, "I know, naively, hubristically, I know the five types of searches that people are going to run that I want to advertise on. Going back to school, getting reeducated or something like that. If you think about it naively, you'd think that the number of keywords, essentially, is closer to five than 17 million. I think that's something really, really interesting about the way you operate, that you can even get to 17 million.
Brad Miller (01:28:34):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:28:35):
But also that there's ROI in doing so.
Brad Miller (01:28:38):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:28:38):
You guys wouldn't do it, if it wasn't ROI positive,
Brad Miller (01:28:41):
That's absolutely correct. And also we're forced in doing that because in your example, let's just say round numbers. Let's just say we get paid $30 for every lead that we generate. Some of the best keywords in our industry, things like online colleges. Okay? You can't get at the top of the Google search for less than $50 a click. So if I bought a click for $50 and I'm only getting $30 on a conversion that math is just not going to back out. So the only way to compete is in the long tail. And so, we literally can't compete at a short tail.
Rob Collie (01:29:20):
And how do you do that? Without giving away any secret sauce, how do you get into that long tail business?
Brad Miller (01:29:28):
Well, the key at Google is making sure that your ad copy, your search term or keyword, and your landing page are all in alignment. The most important thing for Google is that their users to have a quality experience, they want their ads to be as much like an organic result as possible. So they have what's called a quality score and they will determine your quality score for each of your keywords based on how closely aligned your ad copy, your keyword, and your landing page are. And they will penalize you heavily when those are not aligned. And then that gets fed into you how much you're charged per click.
Brad Miller (01:30:13):
So it is their way of basically incentivizing that alignment. And so if you're able to take a long tail keyword or search term and come up with finally tuned ad copy and a landing page that aligns perfectly, you're going to get rewarded for that. The trick is how do you do that 17 million times? So it's a combination. And going full circle, taking us back to the poker business, it's a combination of what can I do, programmatically, what can I use the computer for, and what can I use the human for? And so it's figuring out how to draw the line and have the balance between the two where you can get scale, and yet at the same time to get that bump in quality score.
Kai Hankinson (01:31:01):
Google's investment in the quality of the searcher's experience is enormous to their credit. The quality score varies from one to 10 and they multiply your bid, when it gets inserted into the auction, by that score. So somebody with a quality score of one is getting their bid multiplied by one and someone with a quality score of ten's getting their bid multiplied by 10. Now that means that Google's... Imagine that if we go up against someone that's a one and we're a 10. Let's say we bid a dime a click, or something, and we end up paying a dollar and we win it. And they bid 95 cents and lost. Well, look at what Google just did. Google just sold something for a dime that they could have sold for 95 cents. And that's an extreme example, but that's how wide the quality is score...
Kai Hankinson (01:31:53):
That's how massive the impact is. And I think that's... Plus quality score is a black box, much like the search engine algorithms because they don't want anyone to be able to game it, but that's why I think it is really important to not take shortcuts and just try to build the entire business and website experience, advertising experience around giving users what they actually want, because that's what Google wants.
Rob Collie (01:32:20):
It's almost... You listen to it that way, they're willing to give up almost like a 10X revenue opportunity in order to provide a better experience for their users. It almost makes them sound egalitarian, almost like they have our best interests at heart. You could really talk yourself into that, couldn't you?
Kai Hankinson (01:32:38):
They have their long term best interests at heart.
Rob Collie (01:32:43):
Honestly, I think that's the best we can hope for, really, from anything is everyone having a long term view. That's probably the closest we're going to get to living at peace with each other is if everyone had a long timeframe. I don't care about what happens to the quality of the air. I'm not going to be around a hundred years from now when it's really bad or whatever. Eventually everything comes around to affect everybody. Hey, I'll take a company, that's got its long term interest and view really clearly at the front of its algorithms over the others.
Brad Miller (01:33:21):
Yeah. Makes sense.
Rob Collie (01:33:22):
I just talked myself into Google as a good guy. What do you know? You were here when it happened. To get a little commercial for a moment, because we don't run ads on this podcast so we might as well advertise for ourselves.
Rob Collie (01:33:35):
So one of the things that we're inching closer towards is combining. We'd be like Hank and Miller, P3 joint offering, bringing the power of our consulting team and our analytics expertise and our ability to span those silos, to provide the kinds of feedback. With you guys, that have basically become like cyborgs that are merged with these advertising platforms, and all the tools that you have behind the scenes as well. Coming soon, whatever soon is. This is one of those things, we're not in any huge hurry. We're going to do this when we're ready, not sooner, but when we're ready. We all believe in it. We're all proud of it. We're going to start offering our joint services to others, help them navigate this world of advertising and the same way that you guys have learned to.
Rob Collie (01:34:28):
I think that's going to be a really valuable offering for the world. If you look on the Power BI templates gallery, there's an ad words template. It's just so cute. That's not going to solve your problem. It's not even going to come close to solving your problem. It ignores all of your own data on your side, like the things that are happening on your end that the ad platform can't see. It ignores all of this incredibly important tribal knowledge that you've developed over the years like, again, all these counterintuitive things. This ability to go after the long tail, which is like even if you see the opportunity, which most people wouldn't... Even if you see it, it's easier said than done.
Kai Hankinson (01:35:11):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:35:11):
I'm really excited about it. And, like I said, any opportunity that we have to really hang our friendship out over a cliff, put money in professional fortune stake we got to do that. It's gone so well for so long.
Brad Miller (01:35:30):
It's time.
Rob Collie (01:35:34):
Yeah. In closing, when's the next email that's encouraging me to go to Burning Man? I've added a recurring nightmare to my palette, which is that I'm packing for Burning Man and I don't have all my stuff and I got to show up and it is... It takes a lot to add a recurring nightmare to your pantheon. And I've got one now. So how long do I have before we start talking about this again? And I have to start getting terrified and excited at the same time?
Brad Miller (01:36:04):
Well, Kai and I have been four times now. Our CTO has been, I believe, 17 or 18 times. They canceled it this year, obviously, because of COVID. So if they bring it back next year it is going to be quite the event. It's also my wife's 40th and she loves it more than anything else. So if it does indeed happen next year, we'll definitely be there and-
Kai Hankinson (01:36:30):
See you at the Thunder Dome at sunset.
Brad Miller (01:36:32):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:36:33):
We've got some things to settle in the dome, don't we, Kai? Yeah. You're right. Them canceling this year is like the whole Burner community has just been like coiling a spring-
Kai Hankinson (01:36:48):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:36:48):
For an additional year.
Kai Hankinson (01:36:50):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:36:50):
Maybe next year is a good one to avoid. I don't know,
Brad Miller (01:36:55):
Probably, but there's no way I'm getting out of it. So I'll be dragging you guys with me.
Rob Collie (01:37:00):
Like you say, most guys, when they're the wife goes out of town, that's the time to party. When your wife goes out of town it's when you get a rest.
Brad Miller (01:37:07):
That's right.
Rob Collie (01:37:11):
That's a keeper. So, Hey guys, we talked for a long time. I really appreciate you guys devoting so much of your valuable time to this and I hope the listeners do as well. So thanks again.
Brad Miller (01:37:26):
Thanks for having us.
Kai Hankinson (01:37:26):
Love you, Rob, take care.
Rob Collie (01:37:26):
Aw.
Announcer (01:37:26):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data By P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show. Email Luke P- L-U-K-E-P@powerpro.com. Have a day to day!
Chris Finlan is a Principal Program Manager on the Microsoft Power BI team, the creator of the popular and incredibly adorable mascot Paginated Report Bear, and a huge Philadelphia sports fan. We try very hard not to hold that last item against him! He's done it all, from the product team to pre-sales, technical training, database administration and sales operations. Tom is off this week, so P3 Senior Principal Consultant Justin Mannhardt steps in to fill the void. The guys cover quite a bit, including: * Working in sales vs engineering * Power BI, Paginated reports and SSRS; What are the differences? * How to make friends after a certain age * Seattle area COVID reactions * Can someone cheat at Scrabble and still lose? * Ignite announcements, Premium Gen 2 and the premium per user license, the differences between Pro and Premium options, and Rob has some fun with Chris about some pricing
Quick, everyone get your act together, we've got a bigwig coming through: Joe Phelan, former CEO of DHL Global Mail and Swissport North America, and now (among other things) Chief Strategy Adviser at P3.
We get his valuable C-suite perspective on a number of topics, including:
- What is the typical “data diet” for a CEO these days?
- The tension between good summaries and robust drilldown capability
- Is the C-suite truly more “in” on data today than previously, or is it all just lip service?
- Business and IT relations in an increasingly democratized data environment
- Splicing across siloes, and Power BI’s ability to circumvent the need for data warehousing
- How COVID’s new normal may very well be here to stay
- IoT and automation, and how they drive the need for even more BI
- The parallels between the FP&A mission and the BI mission
- Robustness versus efficiency in the modern supply chain
- How “data people” can best contribute value to leadership – and get recognized for it
Links:
Joe Phelan in Supply And Demand Chain Executive Magazine
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Hello, data people. For our third episode, we get a glimpse into the inner workings of the C-suite because we brought in a ringer. Joe Phelan has held the titles of CEO, COO and even CMO at some very sizable corporations, organizations with names that you'll recognize, and even if you don't, you've been a customer of them whether you know it or not. So he is not one of those self-proclaimed CEOs on LinkedIn. He's not a CEO in the same sense that I am a CEO. He's a real CEO, the kind of person we think about when someone uses that term. He sits on a number of boards today, and we're fortunate to have him as our chief strategy advisor here at P3. He advises me on growing our business and he helps us with some of our strategic accounts. And of course, he's here to talk about data.
Rob Collie (00:00:45):
Before semi retiring last year, Joe crossed paths with Power BI and he recognized it as a turning point. As you'll hear, that's just not me hyping it up. It's the truth. And some familiar themes definitely emerge in the conversation. I think you'll find those parts totally validating. And it definitely builds confidence to hear that sort of thing from someone like him. But we also made sure to get his advice on how to do things like how to speak data to leadership, how to provide value, how to get noticed. We also talk about supply chain in particular. We talk about FP&A. We talk about the rise of automation and the internet of things and how that drives the need for even more BI and a bunch of other stuff that I hope you find valuable. So let's get to it and you know how it goes. Let's start with that intro music.
Announcer (00:01:33):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:36):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast, with your host Rob Collie and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business, go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:54):
All right. Welcome. Really excited to have you here, Joe.
Joe Phelan (00:01:58):
Yeah, I'm delighted to be here, Rob. Thanks for having me.
Rob Collie (00:02:02):
As one of the intro episodes of this podcast, you're a ringer. We're bringing in a heavy. We don't mess around here on the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Let's speak to that, your ringerhood to get us started. You've had a pretty interesting career. You've been in some very, very, very interesting places. Why don't you give us a little bit of a rundown of where you're coming from?
Joe Phelan (00:02:24):
Sure. And I'll start off with you're much too kind, Rob, but to tell you a little bit about what I've done, I've been in business for about 40 years, in transportation, logistics and business services. And 25 years was with American Airlines in various capacities, including global VP of cargo operations and managing director of Europe where I was based in London. I was CEO for DHL GLOBALMAIL with operations in 200 plus countries based in Bonn, Germany. That was a great experience. And CEO for Sunbelt Rentals, the second largest equipment rental company based in the US with over 400 outlets in North America, primarily construction equipment rental, and mom-and-pop do it yourself type rental.
Joe Phelan (00:03:21):
I retired mid 2019 as the global COO for Swissport International. I'll say I kind of retired because I'm doing some other things now as well. And we provided airport ground handling services for over 800 airlines around the world and airports. And I currently sit on a few boards and I sit as a strategic advisor for PowerPivotPro. So I'm happy to be here with you.
Rob Collie (00:03:54):
All right. First of all, you and I, I mean, we have the same title. You've been CEO a lot places. I'm CEO here at P3. We're basically the same person, right? It's just that you just happen to have had that title at companies that we all know, we all recognize. I mean, even Swissport, most people probably don't recognize Swissport, but you don't really go through an airport without Swissport being involved behind the scenes, isn't that right?
Joe Phelan (00:04:23):
That's correct. I mean, a lot of the employees at many of the large airports are Swissport employees. You just don't know it because they're wearing the airlines uniforms.
Rob Collie (00:04:34):
Oh, yeah. Hadn't even thought about that particular angle. And so you said that at Swissport you served and worked with 800 airlines. Today would that number still be 800? It seems like we might be losing some airlines.
Joe Phelan (00:04:46):
Yeah. I mean, I'm not as close to the business as I was, but I think we can all be rest assured that the number of airlines has turned down quite a bit.
Rob Collie (00:04:54):
One of the things that you said at the end there which of course is in some ways my favorite part of your intro is that you're chief strategy advisor here at P3. This is in the industry what we would call you're a really good get. Why was that interesting to you? Why was that an interesting thing? Your background, it's next level. I don't get to rub shoulders with people like you very often. And I did back in the software world. I'm sure that everyone listening to this that's the question on their mind as well. What brings you to having a role with us at all? And this is a data podcast, why we got you? What got you interested in all of this?
Joe Phelan (00:05:35):
Well, it started quite some time ago. I've always been a big believer of information and the power of information and the value in empowering employees by providing the best possible tools. And I'm a believer that most employees want to do a good job for the company. And when provided a sense of direction and vision and the proper tools, they will excel beyond your imagination. So most people want to do a good job. Information to me is fun and that's why I was intrigued when you and I first talked about the opportunity.
Joe Phelan (00:06:21):
And I see tremendous benefits in business intelligence and in particularly Power BI because I've been a user in the past and I really enjoyed using the tools. And I think there's a great deal of untapped opportunity in this space as well. Several years ago I challenged a group of executives working for me to deliver real time information that could be accessed at various times throughout the day, giving us a view of performance across various departments, which included sales, operations, finance, and finance included accounts receivable, DSO by customer and customer service.
Joe Phelan (00:07:13):
And one specific department rose to the challenge and came up with a solution by using Power BI. And they produce some dashboards showing our performance relative to the KPIs that we set as an organization. With believe it or not, hourly updates that could be pushed or pulled to the users and drill down capabilities to satisfy whatever level of appetite you might have for information. And so this was created literally in just a few weeks, which I was amazed and what's even more amazing to me now is we can do it in a few days with the technological improvements that have been made.
Joe Phelan (00:08:01):
So this was so powerful. We ended up implementing across the company in every department and created a corporate consolidated dashboard. And the return on this invest which I was always interested in whenever we made these types of investments was extraordinary. Literally within a few months we recaptured our entire investment and the business was now spending much more time on process improvements versus gathering data.
Rob Collie (00:08:33):
Now, as a long time C-suite veteran, this wasn't your first brush with BI. It was just your first brush with Power BI. Can you speak at all to the contrast, what was BI like from your seat before that?
Joe Phelan (00:08:50):
It was pretty powerful, but not as powerful as Power BI. Power BI I think gave us better access to and more user friendly access to dashboards. And the cool thing about dashboards is we could drill down into key KPIs at virtually every department and get to the root of a problem. And this would allow much more time to be spent coming up with process improvements versus compiling data. So the dashboard would behind the scenes very rapidly access various data sources behind each of the KPIs. So depending on your level in the company and your appetite for quantity of information, you could continue to drill down and access what might be most relevant for you as a user.
Rob Collie (00:09:52):
So before this Power BI dashboard project that you're talking about, before that, in that same role, what was your daily regime of data consumption? What did it look like by contrast? What were you looking at ahead of time? Were you looking at spreadsheets? Were you looking at reports coming straight out of IT?
Joe Phelan (00:10:13):
Yeah. Typically the reports I would look at would be on a weekly basis or a monthly basis. They could be Excel spreadsheets or tables and the information or the data wouldn't really lead you to what I would call information, usable information and would require a lot more digging and compiling to get to the root of the issue. So as an example, as the CEO I might want to just see on a dashboard under the new environment a green, yellow, or red traffic light for each KPI. I'm not really interested in all of the information leading to why it was red, green, or yellow. And so if we take a weekly sales report by key account, if it showed red as the CEO in a meeting, the executive committee would ask, "What's going on?"
Joe Phelan (00:11:27):
And if I wanted to I could click as the CEO and drill down into the information, but more often than not the sales executive having access to that report knew ahead of time that the question would be asked and had already drilled down and had the answer. And so that's the beauty I think of the tool, is it gives visibility to all levels in the organization of the performance, and it helps you anticipate problems or questions and come up a lot more quickly with solutions to those problems, to those issues.
Rob Collie (00:12:07):
So many fascinating things to me in what you just related. So first of all, let the record state that the C-suite at some of the biggest companies in the world still is being handed spreadsheets on a weekly or monthly basis. And these are organizations with a lot of resources. Is not that they don't have BI. There is a BI department, maybe multiple BI departments, and yet it's still so often a spreadsheet. And not only is it a spreadsheet, which is just funny in a way, right? And it's not uncommon. This is everywhere. Spreadsheets still to this day, they still 100% run the world. And we're just in the earliest, earliest stages of evolving. But you also said that these were weekly or monthly. And so now we get into a real inefficiency here. Because they're spreadsheets they were taking a lot of human effort to compile.
Rob Collie (00:13:12):
And while you can't burn that amount of effort on an hourly basis, you can really only afford to allocate that kind of labor on a slower, less frequent rhythm. On the other side you're talking about Power BI and how it was running multiple times a day and you were able to... So when you say real time, I mean, it goes from weekly or monthly down to multiple times a day. I mean, that was actually one of my questions for you, was what does real time mean to you? That is a dramatic difference in frequency.
Rob Collie (00:13:46):
So even if what you were getting, those spreadsheets, even if they were perfect and they told you exactly what you wanted, the fact that you were getting them only weekly or monthly means that you're always looking in the rear view mirror. You're finding out things when it's in the sense almost... The opportunity to improve in many cases has already passed, or it feels like diminishing returns because you're never sure if you're going to be faced exactly with those sorts of conditions again, right? Whereas if you're [inaudible 00:14:16] more in real time you have an opportunity to head things off. Is that what it means to you? In real time, is that-
Joe Phelan (00:14:22):
Absolutely. The old business intelligence environment, you were looking in the rear view mirror and the information was so old. You might lose customers in the process of gathering information. And the cool thing about Power BI that I liked is we refreshed every hour. So every hour on a daily basis we were getting fresh information about whatever department it was that we were interested in. And what used to be really frustrating to me is to get a call from a customer and the customer tell me what his performance was. I was interested to hear from the customer, but I should know when the customer calls what the performance is.
Joe Phelan (00:15:15):
So if I've got a message to call a customer back under the Power BI environment, I could pull up real time information about what's going on with that customer and proactively then deal with the issue. So I can start off with an apology, "I see that we delayed your flight or your shipment today, and here's what we're doing about it," rather than hearing from the customer first and then you're on your back foot. You're on the defense.
Rob Collie (00:15:47):
Yeah. Yeah. I can absolutely see that.
Joe Phelan (00:15:50):
And I might just add the customer really appreciates that as well, because they feel like you've got a good handle on their business and what it is that you're doing for them, the service you're providing. I think the worst thing is for the customer to have to tell you and you're surprised.
Rob Collie (00:16:10):
Another thing that we were talking about that you mentioned about the spreadsheets that you were getting was that you were almost drowning in data rather that having actual information. This is a mistake that analysts and people who are good at these tools... It's a mistake that we, I think pretty frequently make, is assuming that there's exactly the same level of curiosity, exactly the same level of excitement at the next level up or multiple levels up the org chart from us. We're expecting everyone to be just like us. And so we'll very often take the data that's at our fingertips or that we can access us and we'll produce something... In a way is almost like about us. It's about my world.
Rob Collie (00:17:01):
And then on the other hand you said, "Sometimes all I want to see at the top level is a red, yellow, green. Is there even anything for me to drill into? I don't want to drill into everything just to find out red, yellow, green. I just want to know where our problem spots are and then I can focus attention." There's an interesting cynicism that develops here, down amongst the data people when it comes to executives in that there's a joke, in a way it's like, "Oh, no, the executives, all they really want to see is a big meatball of color like red, yellow, or green. That's all they ever want to see."
Rob Collie (00:17:36):
Or this morphs into another misunderstanding, which is... I guess this is true sometimes, but most of the time it's not, that, "Oh, no, the executives really only want it to look good." I think this is just really just a misunderstanding, a misinterpretation of signals. And it comes back to one of the things we talk about a lot, which is when you're building dashboards, you're building reports of any sort, you're really building software. You're building an application. You're not just publishing data. You're building software.
Rob Collie (00:18:10):
At Microsoft when we were building software, as much as we could, we tried to understand who was going to be using it, tried to walk in their shoes. And it's hard. It's hard for someone to walk in the shoes of the C-suite, even if we really want to. You have to start with wanting to and understanding what your day looks like. I know we're jumping around a little bit here, but can we talk a little bit about that? What would be ideal for you as an executive? What would be the advice you would give to people who are building dashboards or reports that are going to make it to someone like you?
Joe Phelan (00:18:51):
What I would want in an organization is my executives to have access each morning to information about yesterday's operation and for them to be able to access in each of the departments information on an hourly basis during the day if they need it, if they have an appetite. But as a minimum, to be able to start their day knowing what yesterday looked like and what is forecasted for today from an operating standpoint. And that could be true for just about any department. So having access to information real time and really understanding what's driving the organization in terms of key KPIs I think is extremely important.
Joe Phelan (00:19:53):
And what was always important to me was our having transparency in the organization. And so open and honest transparency. And I think that's what information does for you, is it helps make the organization much transparent and provides then the motivation for the team to act in a more proactive way. I don't necessarily want to know as a C-suite member, want to know all the details of a problem. What I'm more interested in is what are you going to do to resolve the issue? So I'm mostly interested in the fact that you've identified the issue and you have a solution that you're ready to employ to solve the problem.
Thomas LaRock (00:20:51):
I've never been a CEO, but I'm willing to try if some of these wants to take a chance, but when it comes to those dashboards, I've helped provide the data for these dashboards. But what I see often is what I call the dashboard danger or danger of the dashboard in general. You two have talked about a little bit already. You talked about the red, the yellow, the greens, and you talked about addressing the issues and knowing the problems. But here's why I usually push back on, so Joe, your executives show up and you said that dashboard should tell them what things look like yesterday and everything's green. And I would then push to you and say, do you know why it's green? Do you know why you're being successful? Do you know why? Do you have that data as well?
Thomas LaRock (00:21:35):
Because when I was coaching basketball all those years ago in my other life, when you were having success, you had to know why you were being successful, otherwise you really didn't have that advantage or that edge. So I would push back. When we talk about these dashboards, I don't see that often enough. I see people, they put their metrics in, they have their KPIs, everything's green, but there's also a level of greenness, right? Sales is doing good, so they're hitting their number. They beat it by 1%, but they could have been 10%. You don't really know the because you may never click on that little green light.
Joe Phelan (00:22:11):
Yeah. That's an excellent point, Tom. And you'd be a good CEO because that-
Thomas LaRock (00:22:16):
Hold on. I'm updating my LinkedIn right now. Hold on.
Joe Phelan (00:22:19):
I think just not accepting the data is green is important and I think great organizations want know why it's green, but also want to test and drill down in the green a little bit, because what you'll find within the green is the average has come out to be green, but there are some spots within that particular area you're measuring that aren't green and need some continuous improvement. And so that's the value of drilling down. And I think most CEOs will not just accept that... It's most good CEOs, will not just accept that it's green.
Joe Phelan (00:23:04):
They will in fact drill down a bit to try to understand where the weak spots are, because as the old saying is, is you're only as strong as your weakest link. You need to be mindful of the weakest links, understand what's driving the good performance and see if that's applicable to other areas of the organization as well so that you create a learning environment and you learn from each other. That's a good point, Tom.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:36):
Thank you. I'm making note of all the good points I have on this podcast-
Joe Phelan (00:23:39):
We'll keep score.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:40):
... for my review later at the end of the year with Rob. So that's one.
Rob Collie (00:23:45):
Yeah. Well, Tom, just like Joe Joe said, I mean, your overall indicator can be green, but there can still be a lot of places where you need to work.
Thomas LaRock (00:23:53):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I know. I can't fake it with a dashboard for you. I get that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:24:01):
I think you're doing a great job, Tom, just so you know.
Thomas LaRock (00:24:03):
Again, going on my LinkedIn.
Rob Collie (00:24:07):
I'd like to continue to role play a little bit on my end. I won't ask you to role play anything. You just get to be you, Joe. [crosstalk 00:24:15]. Continuing this cynicism in a way, so when we started off and you were talking about your sincere interest and your authentic experience with using data and seeing Power BI and turning it into an advantage, turning it into very clear ROI. And sometimes the people in this line of work might not believe that that's true, meaning they don't necessarily get a lot of reinforcement that filters down to them, that the C-suite actually truly sees the value in it.
Rob Collie (00:24:53):
So it's almost like I want to ask you and so I will, how unusual do you think your stance is? Are there still a lot of the real old fashion CEOs out there that, again, the cynics amongst us are expecting to say, "Ah, I don't need no stinking data. I know how to run a business. I know what's going on"? That is a bit of a caricature that does exist. It doesn't mean that it's correct, but there's reasons why that caricature exists at certain levels of the organization.
Joe Phelan (00:25:31):
I think, Rob, the C-suite today is much different than it was years ago. It's comprised more of individuals, I think with strong communication skills, strong collaboration skills, the ability to create teams and the mindset for an open environment. It used to be information was power and amongst the C-suite it wouldn't be shared because it gave you as an individual an advantage within the team. But it's very different today. I think the environment is very open. It's more collaborative. I think people value working as a team because they recognize that it brings one plus one equals three, it brings the team working together, allows you to create success a lot more rapidly.
Joe Phelan (00:26:28):
There's a lot more receptivity today to providing employees with real time, meaning information as a result, is it gets back to that notion that I mentioned earlier, that if equipped with information and employees, frontline employees understand the direction, they'll excel and they'll perform extremely well for you. You just have to have the courage to give them the information that they need. So, yeah, I think we provide solutions for improved business performance throughout the organization by simply making I think information available in a real time basis.
Rob Collie (00:27:17):
It's good to hear that that's happening increasingly at the highest levels. That's a very encouraging trend. I got to admit, I haven't worked at a large corporation for a full decade now. I know what it's like with our clients, but our company, we only really attach at places where they're thinking the right way. We get a very positively skewed sample by virtue of the lens, the filter that gets applied to our client base. So it's really fascinating ongoing curiosity to me, to what extent... When you hear all the hype, data, data, data, data is the new black, you use data for competitive advantage and you can't help but wonder to what extent is this just a platitude that everyone is supposed to repeat, versus how much they've walked the walk.
Joe Phelan (00:28:13):
I think the C-suite today, Rob, recognizes that having real time information gives you a competitive advantage in the marketplace. And so the C-suite will wake up very quickly when they realize that they're losing market share or their unit costs are rising faster than a competitor or unit revenue isn't going up as high as a competitor. And so business intelligence I think will continue to be the center for driving business performance in the future. We're much more resilient now than in the past. And if you're not nimble and ready to move at or before the speed of change, you'll simply be left behind in today's business world. Things are moving very, very quickly. And so information powered in the right way and in the hands of the people driving your business will be I think the recipe for success in the future. And I think CEOs in the whole C-suite recognize that much more today that just a few years ago.
Rob Collie (00:29:28):
Well, that certainly paints a bright future for people who are good at data, but also people who are... As you were hinting at even at the C-suite level, it's not enough to be good at data. You have to be good at it. You have to understand the business and you have to be a good communicator. I'd love to get your reaction to this, but I personally believe that the longstanding separation between business and IT, where watching those in a way collapse into each other in some really important fashions. IT still very, very, very much has a role structurally and in terms of governance, but when it comes to BI, they used to also, in addition to those two, infrastructure or governance, right? They also had the role of the creators of all of the sanctioned reports.
Rob Collie (00:30:24):
It's that last part that's antiquated. And that there's a rise of this hybrid, a hybrid professional that's actually anchored in the business side of the house that becomes good at these tools such as Power BI and then in collaboration with IT is able to deliver a quality and a pace of information. It was just never seen before. Does that align with your experience and what you've seen? You talk about this set of Power BI dashboards, was that spearheaded primarily by IT or was it more of that collaborative? Were there people on the business side who actually had hands on the keyboard during the creation process?
Joe Phelan (00:31:05):
No, I think it was more the business side was engaged with Power BI and brought the solutions forward. And that's the beauty I think of Power BI, is most of what an IT organization is doing today in today's world is there's so many mergers and acquisitions. They're putting systems together and trying to rationalize the entire IT infrastructure. And so it was refreshing to me to see the business bring forward, the operations department bring forward a solution to this that didn't really require any IT support.
Joe Phelan (00:31:46):
It required an interested individual within that department to be the go-to and to quickly become the Power BI expert who could then train and get everybody up to speed on how to use the tools. That's the cool thing I think about and why I like Power BI so much is you don't have to rely on a large IT organization to put it into place when they've got many other big, big strategic projects that they are working on. And if you had to wait, it would simply take too long.
Rob Collie (00:32:28):
That's why Excel shows up on your desk every day.
Joe Phelan (00:32:30):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:32:32):
If you're waiting, you're just going to get Excel from the business, right?
Joe Phelan (00:32:36):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:38):
Hold on a second. The bottleneck isn't the use of Power BI, Excel, Tableau, any of that. Crystal reports, I don't care. That's not the bottleneck. The bottleneck is the data. The bottleneck is somebody in that organization saying, "Okay, so we got to go build this data warehouse." And these days it's not just a data warehouse. And we've gone beyond data mart. Now I live in a data estate by a data lake. And I shop at the data mart, we store everything in the data warehouse, but it's made by the data factory. And it's just all the data things. So that's always been the bottleneck, is somebody in the organization saying, "I've got a reporting tool, but where am I going to point it at?" Right? So it's great Power BI can come in. It's great you can assign a custodian to be in charge of this and all that, but you're still going to have somebody sitting there going, "I need some data."
Joe Phelan (00:33:25):
Yeah. I mean, you're so right. We're working with a client right now-
Thomas LaRock (00:33:29):
Twice.
Joe Phelan (00:33:30):
Twice you've been right now. That's good, Tom. We're working with a client now that is expressing that exact issue, is saying, "I'm ready to get going, but we're working on our data warehouse and I want to make sure that I have all the data from all the different systems loaded into that warehouse before we start to execute." And that's the beauty of Power BI. Again, is you don't need to wait to have all the data in the warehouse and have a perfect data warehouse. We can go to each of the systems and extract the data and produce what I would call then information in a very timely manner. But that is an education in itself because it's old IT thinking, and you don't know what you don't know. And it's just people not familiar with Power BI and its capabilities.
Rob Collie (00:34:30):
The software industry absolutely is to blame. People like me in my former job, we're the ones that are to blame for that because we produce an entire generation of tools that made the default assumption. First and foremost, for instance, that all of your data that's interesting is in a database and it's in a single database. So it produced this infrastructure first mindset because the world didn't have a choice. If given a choice, the world probably would've chosen something different, but the software industry said, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do it this way." It's really simple. Power BI just decided, "Hey, we're not going to work that way. We're not going to require that." And the sky didn't fall. In fact things really have taken off, but it's actually two things you were hinting at there though, Tom.
Rob Collie (00:35:23):
I'm going to call them both though. So it's not just access to data. It's not just this former... It used to be you'd build plumbing and then you'd think about faucets years later. Now we say that you can think about it as faucets first and then figure out what the plumbing needs to look like. And that ends up being a lot more efficient. But the other thing is, is that when IT was responsible for building everything, there was also this tremendous subject and domain expertise from the business side that had to be mind meld telepathically transmitted from the business to IT, and then implemented according to that spec. And that turns out to chew almost as much time as the endless infrastructure investment, because boy, that is... It's really hard. There's a lot.
Rob Collie (00:36:12):
The tribal knowledge on the business side, if you could dump it out and print out, it would be like an old encyclopedia Britannica, like lining a whole bookshelf and there's just so much nuance there. And so bringing it within the business to execute, to build shortcuts, all of that, all of that requirements transmission and misunderstanding and mistransmission. And then of course my other favorite point is that even when you write a perfect spec for something, and then you implement that spec perfectly, which by the way, has never happened in human history.
Rob Collie (00:36:49):
We've never had those two things happen in sequence, but even when they do happen, the first thing that happens when the business gets back the report that they just asked for, they go, "Oh, you know what? This doesn't even really answer our question now that we think about it. We need to filter it like this or drill down like that or correct for something, blah, blah, blah." Human beings don't know what they need until they've seen what they've asked for. And so the whole requirements gathering process, which again was inflicted on the industry by the software people, it's just a fools' errand from the start. So it's really, really, really a very different world when you don't have to wait so much on infrastructure and you're unconsciously communicating with yourself armed with all of your own business knowledge as you're executing on something.
Rob Collie (00:37:39):
So Joe, you said that this was a business led initiative. I've got to ask you and I've never asked you this, so what was IT's reaction to having something so valuable be built on the business side? I'll preface this. I'll even make it multiple choice, because everyone's going to be on the same page about this. On one hand, the reality that you describe, it's never been realistic to expect IT to keep up with BI. They're outnumbered tremendously. By definition they don't know everything about that business, the business knowledge. They can't. They have to do their other job. And on top of that they're being saddled with all kinds of things that only they can do.
Rob Collie (00:38:23):
I would want them to be grateful and appreciative and collaborative with this sort of development, but they also could be a little bit threatened. They could be a little bit resentful and I'm sure that the real world spectrum of this, it goes from guardrail to guardrail. There's plenty of examples of either endpoint and all points in between. How did that play out?
Joe Phelan (00:38:45):
Well, I think initially they were suspicious of the solution, but once they found out more about it and how it worked, I think it was quite refreshing for them because they were inundated with projects. Didn't really want to pull away from what they had on their plate. The business had a huge demand and an urgent demand for the information. So for the business to be able to come up with a solution, I think in the end was refreshing for the IT organization and it required very little support. So given the fact that it required very little support, it was welcomed, believe it or not with open arms.
Rob Collie (00:39:35):
Well, that is the way that it's supposed to go. And that's the way that it goes with our clients. We work very hard on that. It is truly a situation where everyone can win. I can understand it though, in the places where IT still feels a little defensive about it. It's not just something's being taken away from them. It's also this weird psychological trick that as long as it's Excel that the business is using, when Excel goes bad, it's generally not IT that's blamed. That's Excel. It doesn't mean that it should be that way, it just is that that's the perception. And then as soon as you use something like Power BI, "Oh, it's got the letters BI in it." So now when that goes sour, people will turn. And IT has one of those unenviable situations where they only get noticed when things go bad.
Rob Collie (00:40:27):
I understand their reluctance to increase their surface area in terms of the things that they might be held responsible for even though they didn't do it. Our governance and adoption program, we've got a really good recipe for this and you just can't play defense against something like this. You have to play offense. And if you do play offense and you set things up the right way from the beginning, you don't really need nearly as much defense. You don't need to be afraid of it. But if you sit back and try to control it and just squeeze it, white-knuckle tight prevent the business from unlocking this Pandora's box, they're going to open it anyway. You're never going to fence in that earthworm. So it's good to hear that.
Joe Phelan (00:41:09):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:41:10):
I do want to talk about supply chain of your specialities, but I'm going to throw one more curve at you before we go there. You and I have also talked about FP&A. We've talked about financial planning and analysis. I shared with you my theory that in a lot of ways FP&A is an organic... The existence of FP&A, that's a discipline, is a natural emergent response by the business side of the house to the underserving nature of IT centric BI. Because when I first got to know what FP&A meant and I started meeting people and talking about it, I'm like, "Oh, you do the BI mission. You do what BI was always supposed to be. That's what your charter is." And so I approached you with that theory saying... This rose color glasses theory, this is the new thing. I really found your response to that very intriguing and compelling. Are you willing to share that with us?
Joe Phelan (00:42:17):
Sure, if I can remember what it was. But let me give it a shot. I'll just talk from experience with FP&A and the organizations I've been with in the past, typically FP&A is there to support the CFO and provides the CFO with relevant information about the business for each of the departments. And so will typically sit in meetings, ask questions, gather information. And because they have a limited knowledge about each of the departments, the questions can be sometimes a little insulting to some of the departments and overly elementary. And so that I think causes frustration. It causes a waste of time and energy in the meetings.
Joe Phelan (00:43:18):
And one of the things that intrigued me about Power BI is when it was embraced by FP&A in the organizations I've been in, they would come to the meetings equipped to ask a lot more intelligent questions. And so the time spent in those meetings was a lot more fruitful and they became more team members in the problem solving process and support process for the organization and were respected a great deal more because they were more equipped for those meetings. So I think the overall respect for the FP&A folks was elevated quite a bit. Their overall knowledge of the business and their ability to ask more prudent questions, more meaningful questions in the meetings was much improved. And so overall it was time better spent and allowed us to get to agreed upon actions going forward and delivered a, I think more consistent and more accurate message to the CFO.
Joe Phelan (00:44:34):
And the CFO was really charged with keeping as well as the CEO, the shareholders informed, the investors informed. And so having good, accurate information about how the business was doing was extremely important to the CFO. So overall I think our efficiency as an organization improved quite significantly. The time used to be spent by FP&A, a lot more time used to be spent gathering information and gathering data and very little time on analysis. So Power BI allowed them to spend a lot more time on analysis and coming up with solutions and helping the organization than they were able to do before, because they just simply only had so much bandwidth. And when you're spending all the time gathering data and information, it doesn't leave you much for anything else.
Rob Collie (00:45:32):
Well, I think you remembered your answer from before perfectly.
Joe Phelan (00:45:35):
Is that the way I answered it before?
Rob Collie (00:45:36):
Yeah. And I remember when you first told me that, that first part especially when you said something... Was it along the lines of FP&A is this separate discipline, this separate team, and they're almost like a federal government type of entity? They're going around and they're trying to understand various departments and not doing a great job of it and therefore losing credibility. I started laughing and thinking to myself, "Well, oh, perfect. Yeah, they absolutely inherited the BI mission. That's just like traditional BI. It's the same failures just recast." And of course their tool set was different, right? The FP&A leans very heavily on Excel.
Rob Collie (00:46:18):
In some ways that gives them an agility, but it also gives them a tremendous labor intensive and static view, all the things we've been talking about. Whereas the traditional BI, their failures were more like not even being farther away from the business than FP&A was. And having tools that move at a glacial pace, even though they're great, once you get them built, you just actually never get them built. That's the only problem with traditional BI.
Joe Phelan (00:46:46):
Well, they say the power of being truthful is it's easy to remember what you said last.
Rob Collie (00:46:51):
That's right. That's right. mark Twain said that, something along that. The thing about always telling the truth is you never have to remember anything.
Joe Phelan (00:46:59):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:47:03):
All right, supply chain. I am not a supply chain expert. We have some at our company and not just you, but what does even supply chain mean? Does every business have a supply chain?
Joe Phelan (00:47:18):
I think every business in some form or fashion has a supply chain. Whether it's people, resources, or equipment or technology, just about everything that we do in the world today has some sort of supply chain attached to it.
Rob Collie (00:47:35):
We talk also a lot about logistics. Are these two terms basically interchangeable to you or do they mean different things? They seem to have a lot of Venn diagram overlap.
Joe Phelan (00:47:47):
Well, I think supply chain is part of logistics. And so logistics comprised of many different things in which supply chain is a piece of it. And I won't profess to be an expert. I've spent a fair amount of time in the logistics and supply chain business, but I'm not sure I'm a complete expert.
Rob Collie (00:48:14):
Oh, yeah. All you did was make it to CEO. You're right. We're still waiting for your career to blossom.
Joe Phelan (00:48:22):
There's always a chance.
Rob Collie (00:48:24):
Yeah. We're really hoping you pull it together one of these days, Joe. All right. So let's talk about data and the supply chain. And if you want, we can blend COVID in here or we can keep that separate. We can talk about that separately, but data, supply chain, logistics, COVID, go.
Joe Phelan (00:48:47):
Yeah. So let me talk a little bit about the general trends that I see in the short term in response to COVID and how that relates to the supply chain. I think consumers and businesses have become very resilient and are jointly learning to operate in a way that could add significant utility in the future. So what we've been through has resulted in a great deal of learnings and opportunities, I think, although it's been painful. Providing time savings for consumers is a commodity that I think carries more value today than it ever has. And we've all grown to learn more about the value of time savings as well. We've grown accustom to spending I think more time at home. That time's been with our families and we've had to adjust in many different ways. We've adjusted our purchasing habits. Many of us have learned to appreciate the time savings associated with online purchasing and delivering goods and services.
Joe Phelan (00:50:01):
Many of us have done that for some time, perhaps not to extreme that we do it today. And some of us haven't done it at all and have been exposed to it, and they've said, "Wow, this is really cool." And so I think the most successful businesses in the future will have to better manage all of the data that they have around consumers purchasing habits and turn that data into information that will increase their share of wallet. And so there's a lot of examples where information will help you increase your share of wallet and will help you understand what's driving consumer habits going forward. I think this data will also bring new discoveries for products and services delivered to your home when you need them at the right time.
Joe Phelan (00:50:58):
And so you will get the product without having to ask for it because the information leads to the conclusion that now is the time. And so that in itself I think will be pretty powerful. And some may argue, Rob, that this is all temporary adjustment. Dining restaurants will open full again and movie theaters and malls will all open back up and grocery stores will get back to normal. However, I think there's a high probability that many consumers like the change that has occurred. They like the change to their purchasing habits and will opt for these different options in the future, drive up for pickup of your groceries, delivery of your groceries to your door, classrooms will also look very different in the future with online delivery of education at all levels, distance learning, things like medical appointments. I don't know about you, but I'm afraid to go to the doctor's office.
Rob Collie (00:52:13):
Yeah.
Joe Phelan (00:52:13):
I probably shouldn't be, but I am. I'm afraid to go see the dentist, but with telehealth now and I've used it, you can dial up a doctor and get some really good consultation and advice and you can see the doctor and she or he can see you and prescribe a remedy. And so the way of doing business I don't think it's temporary. I think we've had some setbacks. We've made some adjustments, but a lot of what has happened as a result I think will stick for some time to come. And so with all the previous spending habits changing, a significant shift has already occurred. And as a result of our getting more comfortable with doing things online these past several months, I think we'll see the new... I hate to say the new normal because it's cliche, but there will be a new normal going forward.
Joe Phelan (00:53:18):
And some people still like going to the grocery store and some people still like going to the movie theater and that will continue, but I think some habits will change. All of these have changed rapidly the businesses and the new data that's needed to crunch and understand consumers demands, desires, and purchasing habits will become even more prevalent in the future. So the demand I think for information will continue to excel. Supply channel changes, the consumer purchasing changes, consumer demand changes, all of this will thrive off of the need for new and more real time information. I think businesses will need to be more agile with the data and the information.
Joe Phelan (00:54:15):
Waiting until the end of the quarter or the end of the month or the end of the week will no longer allow you to be as resilient as you need to be as the consumer demands you to keep up daily. And crunching data the old way is too time consuming and too cost prohibitive to be as agile as you need to be to compete in today's world. Today's world is happening today, it's not happening tomorrow and it's not happening yesterday. It's happening today. Businesses will need to access realtime information captured from mounds of data collected throughout the organization across multiple functions to ensure that timely decisions are being made for consumers and automation, I think will play a big part of that going forward.
Joe Phelan (00:55:14):
So all of these IoT devices that we've grown accustomed to use in the past, we'll continue to use in the future, but they'll be aided with more real time and relevant information as we go forward. So they'll become an even more important part of our lives I think going forward. It's a long answer, but there's a lot going on there I think.
Rob Collie (00:55:43):
Well, true or false, in my household we have IoT cat feeders.
Joe Phelan (00:55:50):
[crosstalk 00:55:50]. True.
Rob Collie (00:55:54):
True. We have IoT cat feeders. And speaking to the logistics and all that kind of stuff, we ordered new dishes for these boutique IoT cat feeders, and the dishes arrived the next day. It's just unbelievable.
Joe Phelan (00:56:12):
That's called Amazon Prime.
Rob Collie (00:56:14):
It is. It is. Yeah. When you said, Joe, that you think a lot of these changes are going to stick more than people expect, I think one of the things we almost always implicitly underestimate is the impact of shifts in investment on these sorts of things. So for example, I remember... I guess it was two years ago, maybe it was more, I don't remember really, but OPEC decided to just dump a bunch of oil on the market to drive the price way down. And their goal was to crush the domestic United States shale oil industry. Drive the price of oil down to a point where it wasn't profitable to extract from shale.
Rob Collie (00:56:58):
And my first blush thought was, "Well, that's just silly," right? Because as soon as they put the price back up to where OPEC wants it to be, it'll be profitable to do shale again, but it'll temporarily wipe out all the investors and the infrastructure and equipment. And maybe it's a very expensive business and it's going to drive the price of investment higher in the future because it's been proven to be risky. And I was like, "Oh." Once I connected those dots I was like, "Oh, this is three dimensional chess." And so there's no OPEC that released COVID on us. It's not a 5G bill gates conspiracy, but it still has some of that same sort of effect.
Rob Collie (00:57:44):
Even if you're just a small regional bank, you're going to be less inclined to provide a small business loan for a new in-person restaurant going forward than you used to be. You're going to be more likely to fund the carryout joint. And so even if the pandemic passes and we don't get another one immediately on its heels and people's short memories start to... There's still this smart allocation of investment and those people have longer memories because they have to. That's their whole job. And so I think there's a durability to this trend that's going to be enforced by the financial community. And even if the rest of us decide, "No, let's go back to normal," it's still going to be just more expensive to launch a brick and mortar sit down restaurant than it used to be, for example.
Joe Phelan (00:58:42):
It'll change. I think you won't see a traditional perhaps brick and mortar restaurant like we've seen in the past. There's many restaurants that I've seen that have done fairly well through this crisis because they were able to very rapidly change their model. And so knowing that they were going to be shut down for a while or they would be back open with a lot less capacity, they turned a lot of their business to dine out and very quickly adjusted with their staff and with their consumer base and reaching out to the consumer base and advising them of the new business, "This is how we operate now. We still have the same products, the same good food, but we'll bring it to you or you can come curbside and pick it up." Making those adjustments real time and quickly is extremely important for any business.
Rob Collie (00:59:52):
Yeah, totally. So let's get back to supply chain because I actually know just enough to be dangerous here. I mean, we have a number of clients that we work with who in response, not to the pandemic, the disease itself, but more in response to the financial fallout, the financial crisis related to it, the collapse in demand in a lot of sectors, we see a lot of inventory reduction projects. Inventory reduction really it's just like a one time savings for a company. If we temporarily stop making new stuff and allow our warehouse to halfway empty, then we're making revenue on that stuff, but we're not spending as much as we normally would. We don't have to replace it. So we allow ourselves to get a little thinner in reserve. And so that's a pretty time honored tradition during downturns.
Rob Collie (01:00:45):
And it's been really, really gratifying to see how much help we can be in that space. We can really help drive it because sometimes it's hard to change old habits. And so having good dashboards to track all of that, it really makes a huge difference. We even have a case study that I can't talk about yet because it hasn't been finally approved, but a really, really cool case study on exactly this. We also have experience with the other side of this equation, which is the demand shock in the other direction and the supply shock. So we have another client who before COVID put a monstrous order in as they do every year from China for a crucial component of what they manufacture. They always do that because of the Chinese new year.
Rob Collie (01:01:30):
And they know there's going to be an outage in supply and it turned out there was a huge outage in supply this year when COVID ravaged China. And it just happened to be timed just right so that they were sitting on a good supply. They were stocked up and able to produce a bunch of product when COVID caused their sales to go up tremendously. Actually COVID influenced their sales in the positive direction. And if they hadn't had this lucky chance that they had just stocked up on a bunch of supply, they would've been unable to take advantage of the demand. And if their competitors had been able to step into that void, they might have actually experienced a permanent loss of stature in their market.
Rob Collie (01:02:15):
So there's these two opposite tensions in a way. There's this insulation against the black swan outage, where you actually need more inventory. And then there's the traditional desire to reduce inventory in response to a financial crisis. And I don't really have a question here to be perfectly honest. I just find this to be a fascinating tension and want to know if you had any thoughts on it.
Joe Phelan (01:02:39):
A lot of businesses, big businesses have traditionally gravitated to one supplier for a product or a component because it allowed them to get the unit cost down for that product. So ordering larger quantities gets you to a lower unit price. But the cost of logistics when things don't go well can be quite significant. So I think a lot of companies now are moving more towards having geographically more suppliers. And so there may be a supplier in China, there may be one in Latin America and there may be one in Europe that you use and your costs for producing those components might be a little bit higher, but you're able to then leverage the supply chain either during downturns or times when things are extremely good in a more productive way. So I think many businesses are reevaluating their stance on that and their procurement habits and are making different decisions based on what they've witnessed particularly over the last several months.
Rob Collie (01:04:10):
Yeah. One of the things that I've seen many times over the years now is that whenever the world changes, whether for good or bad, positive or negative, it immediately invalidates all of the tribal roadmaps that have been developed over time in terms of trial and error. And maybe those roadmaps really weren't all that good to begin with. A lot of times when you poke at them you discover that they really weren't as good as everybody thought. So sometimes it's a blessing that everyone comes to this realization that we can't trust that roadmap anymore. And so the need for good analysis, the need for good information, the ability to see through all of the noise, to see the forest for the trees, there's only a higher premium on that. And this is one of the reasons why our business is actually blessed to be doing quite well during otherwise completely historic, awful situation.
Rob Collie (01:05:08):
But BI has always done this. Even bad BI used to absorb more spending during downturns than it did during "normal good times". And a lot of the things that you've been saying today, in fact without any sort of prompting or pre-planning, I have a blog post and a talk that we're turning into a white paper that's basically 10 things that should be table stakes for your modern data culture. And, Joe, you've just been again, without any leading the witness you've been hitting on so many of the things that we talk about, that like the increased frequency, the ability to drill down. You use the word across a lot. Seeing across different silos of the business. You also talked about mergers and acquisitions and how many modern companies that's how they've been built.
Rob Collie (01:06:04):
And so even if they're operating in parallel spaces, you're still inherently siloed from the get go and being able to see across is a big strength here. And so another thing we wanted to talk about for sure is your recent interview in the Supply & Demand Chain Executive magazine. You're part of the cover story. And if we were playing Power BI bingo or a Power BI drinking game for every time you managed to get the words Power BI into that interview and into the pages of this publication, I mean, we'd be living pretty happy at the moment. What did you think about that process? Was that enjoyable?
Joe Phelan (01:06:39):
Yeah, that was fun. I enjoyed the opportunity. It was with a publication called Supply & Demand Chain Executive. It was the September issue. And I think they did a very nice job of discussing how a smarter supply chain is developing as we result of our better using information assisted and various technological solutions. The article is called industrial revolution 4.0, which I thought was a cool title as well. And in that article I emphasized the need to have the right information available at the right place and at the right time. I think the same can apply.
Joe Phelan (01:07:25):
This is the beauty I think of Power BI is whether you're using various IoT devices, geofencing, AI, robotics, drones, RFID sensors or GPS, real time information will always be the key success factor I think for these types of solutions. And smart devices aided with smart information and smart people I think will provide a smarter supply chain and smarter solutions for the consumer. And that's what I tried to emphasize in the article, but there was a number of industry experts quoted in the article and I thought they did a very nice job. It's a good read.
Rob Collie (01:08:11):
And one of the things you mentioned in there that I really liked was as you incorporate more and more automation, more and more devices in your operations, somewhat paradoxically your need for monitoring increases because there's fewer and fewer humans involved. And even though humans are of course their own source of error and imperfection, an automated system can run for a very long time in the dark doing something you don't want it to be doing when there's literally no human being watching it. I find that fascinating as well. So it's basically constant reinforcement that I have chosen the right industry, the data industry, we can all just pat ourselves on the back.
Joe Phelan (01:08:53):
That's called confirmation bias [inaudible 01:08:55].
Rob Collie (01:08:55):
Is it? Is it? Well, I'll tell you what? If I started getting different signals I would've changed jobs.
Joe Phelan (01:09:03):
Well, that makes it legit [crosstalk 01:09:04].
Rob Collie (01:09:05):
At least when I talk my own book I am putting my money where my mouth is. So I think in closing here, we talked about this a little bit earlier on, let's make it a real crisp direct question opposed to a sidelight. What advice do you have for this new breed of modern data professional in terms of becoming more relevant, more noticeable even, more valuable to the C-suite or to leadership and executives in general? What are the advice that you would give someone who's at that point in their career right now?
Joe Phelan (01:09:38):
Wow. When you ask that it brings back memories of my walking by the C-suite early in my career and thinking to myself, "How do I get one of those offices in the future?" The answer I came up with is, "I guess I need to start thinking more like a C-suite person. And if I start thinking and acting more like a C-suite person, maybe I will become one." And so I think the question's relevant from the standpoint that data people should start thinking and acting more like C-suite people. Don't consider yourself just a "data person". Put yourself in their shoes and try to first understand their needs and the needs of the organization, and then use the lingual that they use. What type of lingo does the C-suite use? ROI, return on capital deployed, shareholder value and understand how the solutions you provide will help them accomplish their objectives.
Joe Phelan (01:10:56):
And I think that's how you get at the C-suites attention, is understand what their objectives are and how you can solve those problems by providing solutions. Because I don't necessarily view us as data people. I view us as problem solvers and process improvement engineers and many other things, but we can aid the business in making significant improvement in performance. It's not about creating just a pretty dashboard or gathering data. It's about providing meaningful real time solutions for the organization. So I think that's an old term, data people and I think we need to all start thinking about ourselves as something a little bit different in the future. Whether it's a process improvement engineer or it's strategic enabler engineer or whatever, we need to look at it a little bit differently going forward.
Rob Collie (01:12:10):
Do you hear that, Tom? You are no longer ever allowed to use the term data janitor ever again?
Thomas LaRock (01:12:17):
That was not the takeaway I had from what our guest just said.
Rob Collie (01:12:22):
He said you shouldn't call yourself data people. You're like, "Yeah, so I'll just call myself data fluky." That'll really set the right mindset.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:32):
Data professional. I usually say data professionals and that covers a lot.
Rob Collie (01:12:37):
It does.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:37):
It's your data, [crosstalk 01:12:38], it's your DBAs, your data engineers, your Power BI, but-
Rob Collie (01:12:41):
We stopped talking.
Joe Phelan (01:12:42):
You behaved.
Rob Collie (01:12:45):
Mostly. Mostly behaved. Yeah. We were talking about data janitor and all of that. And I think we probably got a little bit chopped up there. We're okay. I mean, Tom, was just wrong, so it doesn't really matter. We'll just move on.
Joe Phelan (01:13:01):
Yeah. Hopefully-
Thomas LaRock (01:13:02):
Wait a second. Wait a second. Nobody said I was wrong. I'm two for two on the day.
Rob Collie (01:13:09):
I said you were wrong. You're right, my vote doesn't carry the same weight. You're right. I understand.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:16):
How did we go from some great advice to all of a sudden Tom being wrong?
Rob Collie (01:13:21):
I don't know how that happens.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:23):
Oh, as the DBA though, I accept this result.
Rob Collie (01:13:26):
I did want to magnify what Joe was saying, which is... I actually yesterday just started a document. All it's got right now is a title. The working title is the I is for improvement. Sort of like an attempt to rebrand BI, intelligence was the wrong goal.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:44):
I like that.
Rob Collie (01:13:45):
Being informed. Well, those spreadsheets that you're talking about, Joe, that people send to you, that's checking the check box of informed as far as they're concerned. And when you talk about thinking like the C-suite, you've got to work backwards from improvement. And it's really, really, really interesting. You'd think on the surface that if you work forwards from the data and think about what you can do with the data and what you can present from the data and then put that out there versus if you work backwards from...
Rob Collie (01:14:18):
Don't even think about the data first. Work backwards from asking what can the organization do to improve and then go looking for data and building a solution that's completely the inverse of what "data people"... Their first instinct is to go the other way. To go data forward rather than improvement backwards. And the Microsoft stack has really planned in advance for this. They call it the Power Platform now because it's not just Power BI, it's also Power Automate and Power Apps. And the idea is that you should create positive action loops in your business that drive improvement.
Rob Collie (01:14:58):
I got to give them credit. Microsoft has already positioned themselves for the next fight. I think that within the next few years people like Gartner will be evaluating BI vendors not just on their ability to build the right kinds of reports and things like that, which has been most of the criteria. They will start adding the integration of action like why do I have to leave my dashboard? If I've got a conclusion about a change that I need to make, why do I need to leave the dashboard to do that? Why is it so disconnected? Why can't there be a button right there next to that store? We need to increase their share of product X or something like that. Why can't I at least contextually have a jumping off point there to go and take that action?
Rob Collie (01:15:45):
And having that mindset of embedding those kinds of action, taking verbs in the reports also helps really keep you honest when you're building reports, when you're building dashboards with this improvement in mind that they're like, "Oh, if that's part of the dashboard, I can't cognitively let it out of my head. It has to be there. It's just as important as the charts." And I think we're going to see this is the new thing, this is the new mindset and Microsoft has already quietly built the platform that can do this. Even though it's not the thing yet, they're ahead of the market. And I was just, "Oh, yeah, I'm really excited about it."
Joe Phelan (01:16:22):
I think our consultants are really performance improvement consultants.
Rob Collie (01:16:27):
I agree.
Joe Phelan (01:16:27):
So they can provide the tools and information for your business to allow you to improve.
Rob Collie (01:16:35):
Yeah. It's a different breed. Just like we're talking about the future is the hybrid. Our team, it very much reflects that. It's not an accident. This not your father's old mobile. This is not your father's BI consulting team.
Joe Phelan (01:16:52):
Yeah. Agreed.
Rob Collie (01:16:53):
I'm glad that you see that. That's incredibly validating for me and so I appreciate it.
Joe Phelan (01:16:58):
But somehow we need to get, I think that messaging across. That might help with business engagement in the future, is to position... We're getting off topic now, but position the business more as performance improvement consultants than-
Rob Collie (01:17:14):
We also just need to get people to start searching for performance improvement consultants.
Joe Phelan (01:17:18):
Yes. True.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:19):
I got news for you. If people search for performance improvement you guys will never be front page of Google. I'm just telling you.
Joe Phelan (01:17:26):
Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. It's going to be some sort of herbal supplement.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:32):
You will not win that SEO race.
Rob Collie (01:17:36):
You're talking about sports, am I right?
Thomas LaRock (01:17:40):
I'm talking about things that do require endurance from time to time. Yeah.
Joe Phelan (01:17:46):
Great place to stop, right?
Rob Collie (01:17:48):
Oh, it's a fantastic place to stop. Joe, this here has been a real pleasure. Thanks again very much.
Joe Phelan (01:17:53):
You're very welcome and thank you. I really enjoyed it and love the opportunity and hope that we can do it again sometime in the future. But thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
Announcer (01:18:03):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email lukep, L-U-K-E-P@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!
This episode features journalist Michael Salfino; who writes for The Wall Street Journal, FiveThirtyEight, The Athletic and other top shelf publications. In a spirited and wide-ranging discussion, we cover all of this (and yes, we use the word “multiverse” a few times):
- The statistic that changed Mike’s life
- The wisdom of Einstein and Twain
- The theme of the Hybrid professional resurfaces, this time for Analytics and Communication
- Why your career is a decathlon, and 90th percentile can actually be 99th
- How it’s often better to be LESS informed in your own domain
- Why the courage to improve must be fostered top-down rather than bottom-up
- How analytics might be “ruining” sports (and sports might be bad for compassion)
- Why theory is “over” facts, and facts sometimes should be ignored
- Why Rob thinks predicting political winners is VERY different from predicting sports winners
Here's some handy dandy links for you:
Michael Salfino's Twitter
Michael's article on Data In Politics
Michael's article on Facial Recognition and Race
Michael's article on Movie Ratings
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00:00):
Welcome friends for our second episode and our first non co-host guest. We're very fortunate to have the one and only Michael Salfino. Now this guy writes for some really prestigious outlets, including the Wall Street Journal and FiveThirtyEight. And he's primarily known as a sports writer, but I think you'll see that he's a bit of a Renaissance man. And of course he's into data, otherwise we'd just called the podcast raw, wouldn't we? I've known Mike seemingly forever, even though we've actually never met in person. And I've been following his work since probably the mid two thousands. He and I even collaborated on a research project back in the day when I was still at Microsoft and I was working on the original, great football project. And that was the first time I aimed these BI tools at football data, which was my hobby at the time, but that was years ago.
Rob Collie (00:00:46):
And we recorded this episode. We recorded this at the end of week three of the NFL season. And so you're going to hear some dated references in there from a few weeks ago. And don't worry if you're not into sports or football. The key thing to pay attention to is really how his mind works. He blends data with his subjective experience in a really, really, I think professional and smooth way. One of the things I really like about him is how curious he is. And of course, he's pretty funny. We had a really, really, really good time with Mike and I think we're definitely going to have to have him back on the show regularly. So without further ado, let's get to that intro music.
Announcer (00:01:20):
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (00:01:27):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (00:01:45):
Welcome, Michael Salfino. I've really been looking forward to this for a long time. I've been reading and listening to you for well over 10 years now, probably 13 years. You write for and contribute to a number of different projects and outlets. Why don't you just kind of give us a rundown of that?
Michael Salfino (00:02:02):
Sure. I guess the best way to say it is I'm more of a reporter and journalist. So I'm just trying to use some of the more advanced analytics tools to communicate the players and the teams that are actually good and likely to remain good for the foreseeable future, as opposed to some of the methodology usually employed by journalists, which is more descriptive rather than predictive in terms of forecasting.
Michael Salfino (00:02:31):
So I don't consider myself in any way some sort of like data guru or even statistician. But I think I have a good sense, from my background that originally began in the corporate world, of how to actually translate some of these higher minded concepts and to ferret them out so that readers are able to, I think, glean from them a better understanding of the game. So that's all I'm trying to do.
Michael Salfino (00:02:55):
Like I want to give my readers their eureka moment that I had when I was a kid, when I discovered the yards per pass attempt statistic in a book about professional football. And despite following football so intensely from grade school through high school, I had never heard of this statistic. I had never heard of it on the radio shows that I listened to or the television broadcasts or in any of the articles. So I was extremely annoyed that there was a statistic that correlated to winning, they said 75% of the time, irrespective of any other statistic.
Michael Salfino (00:03:29):
And it was an efficiency stat, which I sort of intuitively knew at that time. So it was much better than a total yardage stat. And I felt that I was cheated, as a person who is passionate about football, to not know something so important and not to have been told this through all of those years, thus far in my life. So I'm trying to actually provide some of that information to the people who read my stuff so that they can maybe better understand the game that they're so passionate about.
Rob Collie (00:04:00):
At our company we have a saying, which is your metrics that you're using, half of them should have words in the name of the metric, like the word per.
Michael Salfino (00:04:10):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:04:11):
Or adjusted or indexed. If you're not doing it that way, if you're just sort of using raw metrics, there's no denominator, there's no correction in it. You're probably breathing your own exhaust in a number of ways. But before we even get into that, I want to give you a chance to name drop a bit. I'm just going to cue this softball up there, right down the plate. What are some of the outlets you write for, Mike?
Michael Salfino (00:04:33):
Well, I started a syndicating nationally in newspapers for fantasy sports. That was after I wrote for, then it was Baseball Weekly, but it became Sports Weekly. So they wanted somebody to cover fantasy football. Then after the fantasy football, I started working for some of the regional sports networks on the content side. And from there, I was discovered by a Wall Street Journal editor who liked article that I did on evolution and pitching mechanics, as it related to a Yankee pitcher at the time, Joba Chamberlain. He was criticized for suffering an injury and losing effectiveness because he was unable to precisely repeat his throwing motion when pitching.
Michael Salfino (00:05:17):
But the biomechanics on the evolutionary side said that that is something that's just natural in athletics because nobody was able to hunt the mammoth the same exact way. You know what I mean? And so since sports is more akin to something like that, the ability to precisely repeat movement is not something that comes naturally to athletes. And just because you look at it when somebody gets hurt and you see that they're different, we're not looking at it at all the times that somebody doesn't get hurt or lose effectiveness. So there's no way to actually know whether this ability to precisely repeat motion, with slow motion video evidence is actually predictive of any kind of success, or even if it describes success.
Michael Salfino (00:06:02):
So the Journal liked that article and they wanted somebody. They wanted, what they said was somebody who they said was like a real nerd to write analytics driven pieces on the sports side. So I did that for about 10 years. I still do it occasionally for them, but now I mostly write for The Athletic on the fantasy side of things, and for FiveThirtyEight on the analytics side of things. When an editor from the Wall Street Journal went over to FiveThirtyEight, I kind of went over there with him.
Rob Collie (00:06:33):
Just kind of minor publication, you know. Wall Street Journal, FiveThirtyEight.
Michael Salfino (00:06:36):
I'm very fortunate. Yeah. I don't know like how this happened, but I think I found a niche because I was able to produce reader friendly content because of my journalism experience. And I always had a passion for data, just coincidentally. So it was just a perfect fit to be at a publication like the Journal where you had to convey some of these higher minded concepts in a more sort of earthy and lay person kind of way. So it was just a fortunate fit really on my part. I've been lucky.
Rob Collie (00:07:11):
I think that's actually really the thing that was compelling. I've been much more into fantasy football 13 years ago than I am today, but I'm still doing it.
Michael Salfino (00:07:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:07:20):
But I mean, I used to read basically like the entire internet of fantasy football content.
Michael Salfino (00:07:25):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:07:25):
And so I had exposure to plenty of different people. And I think the thing that drew me to you and your oftentimes partner, Scott, is the blend, sort of, of the nerdery, of the technical stuff with also human element, which is, by the way, the tagline of this podcast, data with the human element. So that blend and the ability to explain it. One of Einstein's famous quotes is, "If you can't explain something simply you don't actually understand it well enough."
Michael Salfino (00:07:56):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:07:56):
It's not just a communication problem. It's even a symptom of not having a good model in your head. So I think it's more than just a communication skill. I think it's communicating those things simply to yourself is the first part, before you can communicate it to others.
Michael Salfino (00:08:12):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (00:08:13):
I've always enjoyed that. I understand from your perspective that it would seem like fortunate accident and all of that. But as an observer, as an outsider, I think it makes total sense. I mean, you're able to take important concepts and make them broadly accessible, and also not scare everybody off with it. It's not elitist.
Michael Salfino (00:08:33):
Yeah. Maybe when I say that I'm fortunate, I think I'm fortunate in really not having both feet in either world. Like having one foot in each world may make me somebody who, in one of those sides of the sports world would seem less than super qualified to be talking about whatever it is that I'm talking about. But I think the fact that I tow both of them enables me to kind of find a sweet spot in communicating to the reader. You know? If that's clear.
Rob Collie (00:09:03):
Yeah.
Michael Salfino (00:09:03):
So the people on the analytics side, the people who go to like the, the Sloan meeting and stuff, those people would maybe interpret my understanding of some of the statistical concepts to be lacking. But I'm still able to report on the stuff that they're doing, I think, to the lay reader, in a way that's clearer and concise and compelling, which sometimes they lack with their non journalistic background.
Rob Collie (00:09:32):
Yeah. What I've discovered, and I didn't expect this. I've sort of been on a similar journey in some ways. You can be 90th percentile in a few different fields and feel relatively inferior because you only tend to hang out and sort of consume the work of the 99th percentile, and things like that. But then when you realize that your particular profession or life isn't a single event sport, it's more of a decathlon. And if you're 90th percentile in a bunch of different things, the overall decathlon sport, you might be 99th percentile when it's time to blend them.
Michael Salfino (00:10:06):
It's really interesting that you say it that way, because one of the things that I've always done, and it's unusual, I think, in my profession, is that I don't really consume a lot of sports information. I voraciously consume all kinds of news and articles and analysis, but it hardly ever relates to sports. And I was talking to my friend, Cade Massey, who I've worked with in the past and who is a professor at Wharton. And we were at lunch. I told him how I didn't read sports very much anymore. I mean, obviously I did prior to writing about it. And he said that his mentor, Richard Thaler, from the University of Chicago, always told his students do not read about economics, read about everything else. And then you will learn the things from all those other fields that you can then and apply to economics.
Michael Salfino (00:11:00):
And you reduce, I guess, being so sort of cloistered in whatever it is that you're reading that you feel that you can only pursue those paths. So in other words, if you're reading only about your field of expertise or what you're actually writing about, you may feel that that field of play is limited to only those ideas that people have kind of presented. And you may feel that you don't really have the reign, creatively, to maybe focus on things that you would have naturally if you didn't feel that you're kind of stuck with what everybody else is talking about. If that makes any sense.
Thomas LaRock (00:11:36):
I wanted to mention something real quick, because Rob had just talked about the 90th percentile and that struck me. It's like describing somebody who's consistent, slow, steady, not flashy or over the top and excelling in any one area. And when I saw your name come up as our guest, so I did a little research of course, and I'm finding you in all these great places, such as FiveThirtyEight. Just what came out today here, the little transcript of the conversation you're having, this resonated with me. You made this comment just today. It just says the NFC East is now 2-9-1, by the way.
Michael Salfino (00:12:14):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:14):
And I love it because you're just stating a fact as a journalist, a sports writer. And a lot of times I think these sports writers kind of have hidden agendas to some degree, or they want to be a little more flashy because they need that, the ratings, the hits.
Michael Salfino (00:12:28):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:29):
They want to be at 95 percentile. So they would just say, the AFC is 2-9-1, and then they would go on and on and on about how horrible everything is. You didn't do that. You just stated the fact. You say, by the way, draw your own conclusion. And I love that. And I've been reading more and more of your stuff today. And I really like the way you communicate. Like you said, you don't want the reader to be cheated. But you're also not going to bring them to a place where you want them necessarily to go. You're going to let them get there through your words.
Michael Salfino (00:12:58):
Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:12:59):
And, and I think that's just great.
Michael Salfino (00:13:00):
It's kind of like when I've taught in the past. The university that I attended when I was a kid wanted me to come back and teach a couple of journalism classes, and I did it for two semesters. But, similarly, that was like sort of the approach, right. Where you're just trying to make sure when you're editing, like somebody's journalism paper, I feel compelled almost to just fix it. But what you have to do is you have to kind of tell them what they're doing wrong so that they understand it and that they can fix it. And that's the same thing that I kind of do, especially with the fantasy analysis and the player and the team forecasting, is that I try to show what I'm doing so that they can then take those things and apply it to whatever player it is that they're looking to analyze. You know?
Michael Salfino (00:13:50):
So it's kind of the old saw about teaching somebody to fish, rather than just giving them fish. But I really think Twitter is probably ... with what you were saying, as far as the concision of some analysis, Twitter is just such a great tool for really sharpening your ability to say things in a very condensed way, which I think really heightens the ability of a reader to understand what it is that you're saying.
Rob Collie (00:14:19):
Rob Scribbles in his notebook, must start using Twitter more. Because I'm famously long-winded. There's a corner of hell where I will be forced for all eternity to write conference abstracts, like the abstract of a talk. It must be 150 words or less. Writing those for all eternity would be pretty much my worst case scenario.
Michael Salfino (00:14:42):
Well it's weird because, one of the things that people do in my field is they'll promote something that they've just written on Twitter by the word count. And a greater word count is supposed to equal a greater level of sophisticated analysis. And to me, it's almost like a confession. Like if you just said, I just finished 2000 words on Kenyan Drake and the Arizona Cardinals running game, it's like, why the hell do I want to read 2000 words on that? You know? And what I always say, and this is, again, I think I have been fortunate because at the Wall Street Journal, I was on the print side. So I had to say these very complicated things in about 275 words or less. And sometimes when the subject matter would be extremely involved when I was talking to like Stanford biomechanics people about thoroughbred racing and why Secretariat was sort of a unicorn and why horses haven't gotten faster, like human athletes have. It's like, how am I going to do this in 275 words?
Michael Salfino (00:15:45):
But I did it. It was hard, but I did it. And I always tell people who complain about a short word count that Lincoln saved the Republic in 275 words. So if Lincoln can do that in 275 words, you should be able to tell somebody why they should either own or not own Kenyan Drake in 275 words or less.
Rob Collie (00:16:06):
I feel so indicted, you know? Yeah. But you know, it's another saying, right? The mark Twain quote, "I apologize that this is so long. I did not have time to make it brief."
Michael Salfino (00:16:20):
Exactly right.
Thomas LaRock (00:16:21):
Yes.
Michael Salfino (00:16:21):
That is exactly right. It's so much harder. And you know, what's weird is a lot of times writers get paid by the word. And it's like, guys, it's harder to write shorter than it is to write longer. You know? So that's just such a stupid way of compensating writers.
Rob Collie (00:16:37):
Yeah. And there's actually a parallel to that in the old Revenge of the Nerds documentary with Steve Jobs and Ballmer and Gates were their talking about how IBM was measuring their output by KLOCs, thousands of lines of code. And if you go back and look at sort of like the origins of Microsoft, it's these competitions between Bill Gates and Paul Allen to see who could write a certain routine in the least code possible.
Michael Salfino (00:17:04):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:17:05):
Like viciously. Like a single byte was enough to make a difference for these guys. IBM was measuring it like you were lifting bales of hay or something. It was just-
Michael Salfino (00:17:15):
Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting, how the same thing could apply to fields that on the surface appear to be completely different, the same objectives.
Rob Collie (00:17:26):
Yeah. We see that everywhere. Clients or perspective clients are very often asking us, "Well, do you have any experience in our industry?" And the answer's always yes. I mean, we have experience in every industry.
Michael Salfino (00:17:36):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:17:37):
But the harder thing to appreciate is that it turns out that our experience in other industries is going to be just as important. I'll give you an example. Many, many years ago, I did a project for one of the big four accounting firms on, I forget if it was FIFO or LIFO, the first in first out or last in, first out accounting. So we were doing these accounting financial models, basically to assess tax liability. And then years later was talking to someone who worked in a food warehousing business about their spoilage model, when food would go bad in the warehouse. And it turned out it was exactly the same problem.
Michael Salfino (00:18:15):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:18:16):
It used exactly the same formula, the same techniques. And we just like copy pasted that whole pattern. And the industry isn't actually the thing. There's almost like these forms of problems that you do start to see.
Michael Salfino (00:18:29):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:18:30):
And it's fascinating.
Michael Salfino (00:18:31):
In my field, the less I know about a subject, usually the less likely it is that I will make a mistake in that article. So in other words, if I'm writing about something that I'm intimately familiar with, I may rely a little bit on my memory and just flag something very easy, or just not explain it well enough, or skip over something. But if I don't understand. So when I write about hockey, which I really don't have a passionate interest in, those articles tend to be the clearest examples of my writing because I almost have to explain it to myself before I could explain it to the reader. And that's what I try to do you anyway, that's my process. But it's so much easier to do when you literally do not know much about the subject matter than it is when you are so well versed in it.
Rob Collie (00:19:20):
Well, I'm feeling a little bit less indicted now. Because I have been, for example, critical and took a lot of heat, within our little community anyway, for a number of years about being so critical about the way our industry operates, which is, at least traditionally, you would always first go and build a data warehouse before you'd ever put a dot on a chart. And I've been calling BS on that for a very, very long time. And I had enough of sort of bonafides from my background at Microsoft that I sort of felt okay.
Rob Collie (00:19:49):
But there's like this 1,200 page bible written by Kimball. And you must always say his name in hushed tones. It's like a priesthood-
Thomas LaRock (00:19:59):
Wait, you're a Kimball guy, not an Inmon?
Rob Collie (00:20:02):
Exactly, right. I have no idea. I consider the fact that I've never read this 1,200 page book to be a qualification her than the disqualification. And that goes back to some things you were saying earlier, Mike, which is that if you consume too much of your own industry, you become much more vulnerable to groupthink.
Michael Salfino (00:20:22):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:20:22):
And groupthink isn't always bad, but it almost always is. So I like that. I like that you don't have a problem differing from the consensus. Every year going into NFL season, there is a consensus, one through 10 of who the top players are.
Michael Salfino (00:20:40):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:20:41):
That the industry just happens to just magically arrive at as if it's the right thing. But it's really just like the kids walking in Dead Poet's Society, how they just automatically fall into a marching pattern with each other, right?
Michael Salfino (00:20:52):
Well you'll notice, once you're sort of in the industry and like completely OCD about fantasy sports, that it's the drafts that take place at the very early part of the season, before ADP, which is average draft position, is even remotely cemented where you have such a freedom. And a lot of people are intimidated by it and a little bit afraid of it because they don't want to go on record over-drafting or under-drafting a player, especially over-drafting a player, like taking him too high based on where he eventually settles in his ADP. But I find it liberating to just be able to draft the players based on the value that I think they have rather than what that sort of consensus groupthink is.
Rob Collie (00:21:36):
Groupthink runs business, largely.
Thomas LaRock (00:21:38):
Absolutely.
Michael Salfino (00:21:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:21:39):
Escaping that is a little bit scary. It's kind of like the coaches that used to not, and a lot of them still don't, the coaches in football who, or really in sport, who didn't follow analytics. We used to always think why don't they go for it on fourth down, the percentages are great. It's just that their goal isn't necessarily to win the most games. Their goal is to not get fired.
Michael Salfino (00:22:02):
Oh yeah. Scott and I ... Scott Pianowski of Yahoo, who's my partner on the Breakfast Table, where you came into contact, I think, with our work. We've always written about that, about how coaches ... and this happens in business as well. They'll go for the quiet loss rather than take the chance, increase their win probability. But in the process, in defying the conventional wisdom, create a scenario where they will be the subject of much more intense criticism if they fail to win. Which, in either case is going to be the extreme likelihood anyway.
Rob Collie (00:22:39):
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Michael Salfino (00:22:40):
But they'd rather just go down in a way where the reporters aren't going to ... I always say it's like when you're playing a game. Say you're playing Strat-O-Matic, or even Madden or a video game or whatever it is, with sports. You want to win. You really want to win. But you're going to do things that just maximize your win probability, intuitively. It's not that complicated to know that if it's fourth and two, you should just go for it. Right?
Michael Salfino (00:23:05):
But teams ... We don't have to worry when we're playing a game that somebody is going to say that we should be fired and never be allowed to play the game again. So I think that that is so constraining on ... and I wouldn't even call it creativity or courage, but it's almost like a willful ignorance of maximizing win probability just because you are afraid of losing your job, which maybe is rational.
Rob Collie (00:23:32):
Yeah. It is. It is. The lesson here isn't for the individual. In business, for instance, if we were going to take a lesson away from this. It's not for the individual. We're not saying, "Hey, you should be more courageous." This message is actually more for the managers, that they need to create an environment in which the right outcome is optimized for.
Michael Salfino (00:23:51):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:23:52):
It's much more about the environment, because the environment does create different incentives. It creates incentives that are different. Don't stand out, don't get fired. Right. I think people are intuitively doing the math in their heads and coming to the right conclusion, in general. Don't stand out, you know?
Michael Salfino (00:24:08):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (00:24:08):
There's a reason Norv Turner held onto his job for as long as he did.
Rob Collie (00:24:15):
We got to give Mike a chance to react to that. You know?
Michael Salfino (00:24:18):
Well, I think with the birth of analytics in sports that maybe the coaches are going to become, especially in the other sports, maybe not necessarily in football, are going to become more like middle managers, right. And the general managers and the analytics department are going to be more of the key decision makers. And I think that's a double-edged sword. I think the teams will generally be better. But the problem with analytics as it relates to a field like sports, is that it fosters an environment where really teams start playing the same way. So some of the variability that existed previously, especially like in a sport like baseball or basketball, where teams had stylistic ways of playing the game that was inherently interesting to watch. And now analytics is kind of smoothed that out so that teams generally play the same way.
Michael Salfino (00:25:11):
They may not play the same way as well. And that's obviously the difference between success and failure in the individual sports. But everybody is basically playing the same game in the NBA. And they're definitely playing the same game in Major League Baseball now. And for a while that was the situation in hockey with the Devils where everybody just dumped and chased the puck. And football, I think we're being saved right now by the Ravens, who have managed to find a high level of success in playing a fundamentally different brand of football, mostly because of a quarterback that has unique skills.
Thomas LaRock (00:25:46):
So re you in one way saying analytics is making sports boring?
Michael Salfino (00:25:50):
Yeah. And I talk about this with my colleagues all the time. I think baseball has a natural ability to defy the analytics on a team level and maybe find, ironically, better analytics and being better able to exploit market inefficiencies because there's the variability of the ballpark geometry. And so you can theoretically create a ballpark that is going to hurt every other team that is playing the same analytics way while just helping you. You could have 470 feet to center field, like the old Polo Grounds, 360 feet down the line, 390 feet in the power alleys. And it's like, just try to hit home runs here, guys. It's not happening.
Michael Salfino (00:26:36):
And then you build a team based on the things that are no longer valued in Major League Baseball, or as valued, which would be defense and base running and stealing. Strikeouts would obviously still be valuable, but you could even have more of a contact staff, especially a fly ball staff with all that expanse in the outfield. But nobody really wants to do that. The Mets were sort of situated like that with with Citi Field when it first opened. And then the hitters complained and they just shortened the fences.
Rob Collie (00:27:09):
You need a ballpark that's got those movable walls, you know? So every single game you're adjusting the outfield fence. You're like, "Oh, this team's got a lot of lefties."
Michael Salfino (00:27:19):
Yeah Exactly right. Right. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:27:23):
A variable geometry ballpark.
Michael Salfino (00:27:24):
Which is the way ballparks used to be, just because of the fact that they were in neighborhoods. And they were limited as far as the geometry is concerned to whatever the surrounding areas were. But it made for, I think, a more interesting game. Then we got into the cookie cutter thing with the ballparks in the 70s, which were all astro turf and cut the same way for dual purpose football and baseball. And now we're at a point really where the home run is king. And so all these parks are much easier to hit home runs in, generally speaking, than they used to be.
Rob Collie (00:27:54):
Let's go back a little bit. We started off talking about yards per pass attempt. Not everyone here is into football, but I still think, again, going back to that thing we were talking about, the cross domain experience is oftentimes even more valuable than in-domain experience. For about 20 years, at least 20 years, as long as I've been paying attention, in the football world there's been this ongoing argument. And I think it's largely been resolved now, but it took forever. And it used to go like this. So there's basically two kinds of plays you can run in football. You can hand the ball to someone and have them run, and try to block for them. Or you can drop back and you can throw the ball through the air. So there's passing plays, which is throwing. And then there's rushing plays, which is just running.
Rob Collie (00:28:40):
Obviously you can make bigger chunks of yards. You can throw the ball a lot farther. And a really good pass is going to generate a lot more ... you're going to go a lot further down the field than a really good run, on average. And yet conventional wisdom forever was that a powerful running game was the number one thing you could have in football. It was the most valued thing, by a lot of people anyway. And if you went and you looked at the statistics, you would see that the number of yards you accumulate rushing per game did correlate very strongly with how often you won. But there was a problem with that, right? What was the problem?
Michael Salfino (00:29:21):
Well, first of all, there were a couple problems with that. But the main problem that is just maddening to me as a football fan in 2020, that you get professional analysts and coaches still talking about when Emmett Smith or now I guess Ezekiel Elliot gets 20 carries or more i a game, the Cowboys never lose. Or their record is incredibly like a .900 winning percentage. But that's just a product of already having won the game, usually with your passing game. And so you're just increasing the rushing attempts. And it's just so obvious. I swear I knew this when I was 11 years old that well you're winning, so that's why you're running. But the interesting thing is if you look back in the history of football and there's this guy, Bud Goody who's I guess sort of like the Bill James of football, he passed away probably within the last decade or so. But he worked until like his nineties, working with coaches and with teams. And starting in the mid-60s he developed the yards per pass attempt stat and found its correlation to winning.
Michael Salfino (00:30:29):
And if you look back, even on the Vince Lombardi Packers in the super bowl era, and that's the epitome of like running to win, is Vince Lombardi. He's like the Supreme example of that. But they actually dominated, if you look at the statistics, at an historic rate in yards per pass attempt for, minus yards per pass attempt allowed, which is sort of that net YPA stat. They were about four yards better gaining than what they allowed. Which if you're like two yards better, you're one of the 98th percentile teams in NFL history. So that's just a ridiculous margin to have. So even going back to the Dawn of the Super Bowl era, it really was a pass dominated league, but nobody really knew it. But now there's just no excuse not to know it.
Michael Salfino (00:31:24):
So one of the things that I did with the Journal, we had access to a stat service. So I wanted to see, in the intervening period, which was many decades, whether this 75% correlation of winning yards per pass attempt in a game, and we call it net yards per pass attempt because it includes sack yard in passing yards, and sacks as pass plays. I wanted to see if that 75% threshold was still true. And so they went all the way back to the merger and it was like 74.6%. So if you don't know anything else ... and that's way better than turnover differential, which is another stat that's cited by people who want to find correlations to winning. Because turnover differential is, as you know, so much more extreme than any differential. And not even relevant to every game, because you could have the same number of turnovers, where net yards per pass attempt is always going to be won, even by the smallest margin, by one of the teams.
Michael Salfino (00:32:23):
So this includes every game, and no matter what the margin, 75% win probability for the team that wins that stat in each game. So obviously teams, if they were rational, would be building teams to win the battle of the passing game. They would be focusing on receivers, pass protection, and quarterback on offense. And they would be focusing on pass rush and cornerbacks and defensive backs on defense. And they wouldn't really care about anything else, especially in a salary cap situation where your resources are limited by the rules of the game.
Thomas LaRock (00:32:57):
There are so many factors, and especially in football. I remember Wayne Winston talking about how if you could ever figure out what 11 guys to put on the field for any one particular point in time, you'd make a lot of money because nobody knows how to do that. But it's also the game situation. I think you talked a little bit about that. But just the net passing yards itself, there's so much that go into it. the down, the distance, the clock, everything about it. And unless you factor that in, you could talk about 75% of this, whoever wins this stat wins the game. but I'm like, there's so many points in time for you to get to that. There's more layers than just looking at any one stat and correlating it with a win, in my opinion.
Michael Salfino (00:33:39):
Sure. But there is going to be probably one stat that's more important than all the other stats. So even though there are many exceptions and there are ways where maybe you can distort that statistic. Garbage time, by the way, is not one of them, which is something I learned in working with Rob's data back in his Microsoft days, which I found very interesting at the time, which has never changed where it's actually harder for teams to generate yards per pass attempt in garbage time than it is in regular time. So that's why the efficiency stats are the stats that you should be looking at.
Rob Collie (00:34:13):
We're kind of microwaving this meal, and I want to slow cook it for the listeners. So let's slow it down just a little bit. Right? So we started off by saying that, Hey, in the dark ages 20 years ago, and it does persist to this day, which is still maddening, I agree. But 20 years ago, except for a few outliers, everyone believed that a powerful running game was the key to winning. And if you looked at the surface of it, like hey the teams with the most rushing yards do tend to win more.
Rob Collie (00:34:44):
But as you said, I want to make sure that the non-football crowd knows this. In a game, once you've got a sufficient lead on the other team, you start running the ball a lot more often than you start passing the ball, simply because of this dynamic in football where the clock keeps running at the end of a running play. But a lot of passing plays result in the clock being stopped. So the way to run out the clock is to run the ball.
Michael Salfino (00:35:10):
Right?
Rob Collie (00:35:10):
And so you tend to ... every rushing play tends to be positive. So if you're running the ball more, you're just going to amass more rushing yards.
Michael Salfino (00:35:19):
The way it's said is, and I ascribe to this, is that you pass to beat the opponent and you run to beat the clock.
Rob Collie (00:35:28):
That's right. That's right. Okay. So this is an example of a metric that if you just looked at it ... and keep in mind, this is an industry that's been around for a very, very long time, with a tremendous amount of money on the line.
Michael Salfino (00:35:40):
And scrutiny.
Rob Collie (00:35:42):
You would think that "the market" would've figured this out a lot faster than it has. And as you point out, there are still some stalwarts who get on there and parrot the old line, the old line about the running game. Okay. So people started to slowly figure out, okay maybe it's not the running game, maybe it's the passing game. And so then you would naturally go, okay, it wasn't rushing yards. Let's look at passing yards. But this was also a little bit misleading because what happens when you fall behind in a game, if you're trailing, you tend to throw the ball a lot more, so you generate more passing yards that way.
Rob Collie (00:36:22):
So this yards per pass attempt, it starts to factor in. And I think this is the thing, Tom, that you were saying, yards per pass attempt is actually multiple metrics. You're integrating a lot of information. Because the number of attempts that you throw is indicative, especially late in the game, is indicative of the game situation and the time that remaining. A Lot of things just sort of get accounted for. But then there's also the yards per pass attempt that your defense allows. And so now you've got the defensive side of the ball. And so if you have your offense yards per pass attempt on the positive side, your defense is sort of negative, right? And you balance those out. And if your net yards per pass attempt, defense versus offense, is positive. That thing that Mike talked about, the old Vince Lombardi teams had a differential between their offense and defense yards per attempt was four, four yards per attempt. That is a massive number. That is just ridiculous.
Michael Salfino (00:37:24):
And the thing about it is, that's great about the stat is that it's a power stat. You maybe aren't utilizing that power, but that power always exists for you to use. So if you are generally winning the battle of the passing game or if you have great team passing efficiency, even if you don't pass a lot, like the '72 Dolphins famously were a running team, but they passed at an extremely efficient rate. But they controlled whether they felt like doing that or not. You know what I mean? You couldn't stop them really from passing. It's just whether they chose to. And that's still the case in football.
Michael Salfino (00:38:00):
Russell Wilson used to be a great example of this, not necessarily anymore, because he's having what's on pace to be an historic season. But here's a guy who was always extremely efficient as a passer, but the Seahawks just wouldn't pass that much. But whenever they needed him to pass late in games, when they were trailing, they just unleashed Russell Wilson and would win. Now you could say, why not unleash Russell Wilson early in the games and just blow teams out of the water. So now they're being forced to, by a subpar defense. But there was nothing stopping them from just beating teams into oblivion with Russell Wilson early in the games in the past, except for just poor decision making.
Thomas LaRock (00:38:38):
So I think another layer here that is especially true for football, it's really your opponents matter a lot because the schedule is balanced only by division. So you know, this year my Patriots get to play the NFC West, and we have to go on the road to Seattle and somebody else. So that's not the same. It's not even the same for everybody in my division because the Seahawks will play at a couple of AFC East teams. So it gets close. You get to play each other. And maybe it'll be more equal without a crowd. But the opponents matter so much when you're looking at a stat like this, there's just no question.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:12):
But you mentioned the dolphins and I would just say that's a great example of a team that was so good at running. Every other team, all their opponents would try to focus on stopping the thing that would kill them the most. And you would gamble that you wouldn't get beat with the pass, but they did. And it's like that in every sport. I watch my Celtics get beat. I say, you know what if Iggy makes four, three pointers and we get beat, I'm willing to give up that chance because I've got to guard these other guys. And you know what the damn guy sticks those three pointers and we're going home. And that's a huge thing because at some point you have to take a chance.
Michael Salfino (00:39:46):
Because you're maximizing the probability.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:48):
Exactly.
Michael Salfino (00:39:48):
Yeah. So it's rational.
Thomas LaRock (00:39:49):
But it leads to this ridiculous stat where people try to tell me how great the '72 Dolphins were at passing. And I'm like, but they weren't.
Michael Salfino (00:39:56):
Well, I think they maybe could have been if they did it more. It's very interesting, the whole chicken and the egg thing. A theory that I subscribe to was that your ability to run well did not increase your ability to pass well, that the two areas were, despite conventional wisdom and how easy it is intuitively to accept the fact that, well, if you're running well teams will jump your running game and then you could throw behind them more easily and you could trick them. But when you really think about it, if a defense is stuffing your running game, there's nothing they want to do more on earth than to keep stuffing your running game. So like why wouldn't a play action work, even if they're having a high level of success and limiting your running game. There's blood in the water, man. Those guys just want to crush you.
Michael Salfino (00:40:41):
And it turned out, with the more sophisticated data that we have now and utilizing my friends Cade Massey and Rufus Peabody and their excellent Massey-Peabody site, that there really is no correlation between run success and the ability to throw. There's really no correlation, which is extremely counterintuitive, between running the ball well in a game and the success of your play action passing game, where you're faking a run.
Rob Collie (00:41:07):
Yeah. So I remember following you for a little while when you were talking about this, this wasn't recently-
Michael Salfino (00:41:11):
Oh, I've been talking about this since like 2000.
Rob Collie (00:41:14):
Yeah. I'm going to harvest a memory from a while ago and this just might no longer be state of the art for you. But it's something that I remember you talking about a while ago, which is that it was really just your willingness to try running it, that set it up. Like if you were willing to run every now and then just to kind of keep them honest.
Michael Salfino (00:41:31):
Yes.
Rob Collie (00:41:31):
Even if you were terrible at it, as long as they were guessing as to what the play call was going to be, and they were off balance, it didn't really matter whether you were getting three yards every time you ran versus getting four and a half.
Michael Salfino (00:41:44):
And a lot of it was the quality of the fake.
Rob Collie (00:41:46):
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Salfino (00:41:47):
You know, because it's a game of deception.
Rob Collie (00:41:50):
Here's a really nerdy thing that I love. And it's a bit of a reach, but I have to bring it up. So if you have position ... We're talking about derivatives for a moment like physics, calculus derivatives. If you take the first derivative of position over time is speed. The change in where you are in are, in a unit of time, that's speed. Okay. The second derivative of position, with respect to time, is acceleration. The first one's how fast is your position changing? The second one's how fast is your speed changing? Now the third derivative of this, how fast is your acceleration changing? The only word we've got for it is jerk. If you're sitting somewhere and suddenly the acceleration of your body changes rapidly, that's when you tend to lose your balance. It's an unexpected change in acceleration.
Rob Collie (00:42:36):
So only living things with brains and nervous systems care about jerk. Jerk has no physical impact on anything. Buildings aren't more likely to fall over from a high jerk. They only care about acceleration. So it's just this interesting thing that even in physics, when you start taking more derivatives, you get to a point where the living thing's ability to anticipate becomes crucial. It just like the ability to anticipate comes out, even in basic physics, basic calculus, when you're running derivatives like this. And it just seems like to me ... Again, I'm a 2:00 in the morning in the dorm room kind of nerd, those kinds of conversations. And to me that's the same thing, right? If you can't anticipate what's coming, that's all that it takes. That's the real value of a running game in football.
Michael Salfino (00:43:26):
And the same thing in baseball with the changeup and the fastball. Or you could see now and you could see it even with the pitchers of a generation ago, when the arm slot matches perfectly and the release point is the same and they do the overlap of the two pitches you could see, from a hitter's perspective, how pitches that end up at wildly different places in the strike zone appear to be exactly the same for 7/10 of the journey to the plate.
Rob Collie (00:43:56):
Yeah. Information processing.
Michael Salfino (00:43:58):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:43:58):
It's the same thing why in the history of warfare weapon has always beaten armor. There's never been armor that came out that defeated the weapons of the age because the weapon gets to choose where it hits, and the armor doesn't. The weapon has an information advantage, right?
Michael Salfino (00:44:16):
Yeah. It's kind of like what we were talking about before with passing.
Rob Collie (00:44:18):
Yeah.
Michael Salfino (00:44:19):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:44:19):
So I got one other football thing that I thought would be neat to talk about. And again, it's one of these counterintuitive things. The most devastating single thing that a quarterback can do, even this I might be uncertain of, but if you're a quarterback and you throw a lot of interceptions, you're constantly throwing the ball to the wrong team.
Michael Salfino (00:44:39):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:44:40):
That is really going to hurt you.
Michael Salfino (00:44:42):
Not all turnovers are the same. Interceptions have a much greater ... and that's one of the things that I talked about early on in the Breakfast Table, which nobody really knew, could articulate why. But interceptions are much more costly than fumbles. And it's got nothing to do with return yards.
Rob Collie (00:44:58):
Right. Interceptions are a much better predictor of failure than fumbles.
Michael Salfino (00:45:03):
Now I have a theory about that, but you never know if your theory is right. I remember I went to a symposium at the Museum of Natural History. And this was said by the physicist who was giving the lecture. But his whole point was that facts are basically meaningless. They're so low in the pecking order. They're just things that are out there. And we tend to think that facts are more important than theory, right? Because people will say, "Oh, you have the theory of evolution, but it's not a fact." And it's like, no, the theory is over the fact. facts need a theory, otherwise they're just things that are just floating out there. So unless you have a coalescing theory as to why those facts exist, the facts don't even really matter.
Thomas LaRock (00:45:49):
Wow. That's deep.
Rob Collie (00:45:50):
It is. Yeah. So it's not the dots, it's the lines. It's the lines you draw through the dots that are the important thing. Yeah. I like that. I'm going to be going around saying that, with my fingers steepled, for the next 18 months. That's great.
Michael Salfino (00:46:12):
There's certain things that happen in sports. For a while, Ben Roethlisberger was horrible on the road. And it's like, well, okay. Drew Brees being horrible on the road can be explained by the fact that he plays indoors. Why would Ben Roethlisberger be horrible on the road? But it went on for like two years. And then it ended in a sudden flash of great road performances in 2018. But I never really pushed it, like so many of my colleagues did, because they were obsessed with the fact of how Roethlisberger was playing on the road, where I could not find a rational theory to explain why he was playing poorly on the road. So I just ignored it. I just figured it was noise.
Michael Salfino (00:46:54):
But I was always open to the idea that somebody would come up with something where I was like, "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I could buy that."
Rob Collie (00:47:00):
Oh, interesting. You were open to the existence of a theory.
Michael Salfino (00:47:03):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:47:04):
But because we didn't have one-
Michael Salfino (00:47:06):
I just ignored the data.
Rob Collie (00:47:07):
You just ignored it. I don't know that I'd be that strong. I do get fooled by randomness a little bit. Plus you oftentimes just don't get time to wait for statistical significance.
Michael Salfino (00:47:18):
As far as the randomness, maybe it was in The Drunkard's Walk or whatever, the book on randomness, I don't know, wherever I read this. But it's basically that if something is random, it's always going to have the appearance at some point of not being random. You just have to have the discipline to just ignore it, unless you could figure out a reason why something is predictive and not merely descriptive. So if you're flipping a coin, you know you're going to have a stretch where it comes up heads or tails like 80 out of a hundred times, if you flip it long enough, right. Or eight out of 10, let's call it. Maybe that's more likely. But it won't mean anything, because we know it shouldn't mean anything.
Michael Salfino (00:48:00):
In the real world we don't know if those things are random. So if a CEO has been a CEO of one company and they have a great product, was he just randomly in the right place at the right time? Or was the company successful because of his or her leadership? It's kind of like the Pat Mahomes situation, right? Is Pat Mahomes a 95th percentile hall of fame quarterback, no matter where he would've been drafted? Or is he a hall of fame 95th percentile quarterback because he was put into a 95th percentile situation for a young quarterback?
Thomas LaRock (00:48:39):
That's also deep. And I'm hoping that he is 95% because I have him starting tonight.
Michael Salfino (00:48:44):
Well that's the thing. The environment is still 95th percentile, right? Like he's got great players all around him and a great offensive coach. And it's harder to fail in a situation like that. See, like in football, there's no true skill level, I maintain. Or maybe, obviously, Pat Mahomes is highly skilled. So I shouldn't say that there isn't any. But what I'm saying is it's not transferable, like it is say in baseball .I could put Mike Trout on any team and he is Mike Trout. I put Pat Mahomes on the jets, he may not be Pat Mahomes.
Rob Collie (00:49:16):
That's true.
Michael Salfino (00:49:17):
He probably won't be. We actually can say definitively, he would not be Pat Mahomes. We just don't know the extent to which he wouldn't be Pat Mahomes. I mean, would he be Sam Darnold or would he be something much better?
Thomas LaRock (00:49:33):
Well, can we just use LeVeon Bell as the test case for this?
Michael Salfino (00:49:36):
Sure. Yeah. But a lot of people would say he took a year off, he's older. But I think you're ... I would agree with you, that the environment fundamentally changed. There was really no explanation otherwise as to why his performance would decline as precipitously as it did.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:52):
So can I ask one more football question?
Michael Salfino (00:49:54):
Sure.
Thomas LaRock (00:49:55):
Because I'm going to challenge you on something, because you mentioned earlier how garbage time doesn't matter.
Michael Salfino (00:49:59):
Sure.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:00):
I was going to bring this up as well, because in basketball it, was a Bill James? They have, the lead is safe. Is this lead safe? You're up by so many points. There's so much clock and so many possessions.
Michael Salfino (00:50:11):
Yes.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:11):
Football doesn't have that equivalent, is this lead safe, that I've found. But let's just say that existed.
Michael Salfino (00:50:19):
Well, they do have win probability.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:20):
But let's just say this existed, that there's a way where you'd say this lead is safe. I'm up by two plus scores with two minutes to play and-
Rob Collie (00:50:29):
Guys, we have to make a Falcons joke here. Any assessment of when a lead is safe has to start with the question, yes/no, are you the Falcons?
Michael Salfino (00:50:36):
Here's a stat. Here's a stat that's amazing. The Falcons are the first team in NFL history to lose two games where they had a 17 point lead in the second half, or at any point in a game, in the same season. And they did it in consecutive weeks. Consecutive weeks.
Thomas LaRock (00:50:51):
That's awesome.
Michael Salfino (00:50:52):
Is that random?
Thomas LaRock (00:50:56):
No, no. I think it's a trend. So here's my counter example for you. And it goes back to the early 2000s. So maybe you might remember this. But there was a quarterback in the league at that time. And I was the commissioner for our fancy football league, and so I was in tune with all the games and I would do writeups for the games. And this quarterback excelled in garbage time.
Michael Salfino (00:51:20):
Mark Bulger?
Thomas LaRock (00:51:21):
No.
Michael Salfino (00:51:22):
Okay. Because that was the one that we studied back around that time, with Rob.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:27):
This one that I picked up on was Aaron Brooks.
Michael Salfino (00:51:31):
Oh yeah. Okay. Aaron Brooks.
Thomas LaRock (00:51:32):
He played for the saints. He would have horrible stats for three quarters, but in the fourth quarter he was the king of the fourth quarter. He'd pick up 14, 15 points. It was all garbage time points. By the end of the game, he'd have 20, 22 points. And as you know, you compare quarterbacks, how did my quarterback do against the other quarterback. I had 22, he had 25. So it was even. Aaron Brooks always came out, at the end of the day, fairly competitive with whoever he was lining up with. But his NFL team was horrible. Everything about it was horrible. The only way he score points was just in complete garbage time. So when you mentioned that garbage time doesn't matter, I'm like, "I don't know."
Michael Salfino (00:52:08):
But you see how it could matter in fantasy. I'm never going to say it doesn't matter in fantasy.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:14):
Okay.
Michael Salfino (00:52:15):
Because you want pass attempts. And we always say the greatest thing that could happen to your fantasy quarterback, unless you have like an insane tax for it in terms of negative points, like I do in one of my leagues, is the pick six, because he comes right back on the field and now he's got to throw even more.
Thomas LaRock (00:52:31):
Yeah.
Michael Salfino (00:52:31):
So it's like manana, right? But we're talking about different things. You're talking about the scoring of fantasy points. I will not deny that garbage time can significantly increase a quarterback's fantasy scoring. Like Matt Ryan on the other end, when he's trailing, is a perfect example of that. He's the king of that right now. But what I'm saying is that prevent defense's work. It's harder to throw. So your efficiency stats will be worse, not your counting stats.
Thomas LaRock (00:53:02):
Right. So yeah, two different things. Gotcha.
Rob Collie (00:53:04):
Something you were saying earlier, Mike, that I really wanted to dig into. The only thing, and I mean this, the single thing that I learned in college that I considered to be useful, one thing. It was in a psychology class and it's this thing called attribution bias. And I think it might be called different things. But basically it's like when we look at someone's performance, whether in life or in relationships or in sports, we tend to human beings, we tend to overwhelmingly allocate their success or failure to attributes of the per person.
Michael Salfino (00:53:45):
Right.
Rob Collie (00:53:46):
We under count, dramatically, the input and the impact of their situation.
Michael Salfino (00:53:54):
Right. So like with Mahomes, what we were talking about. Perfect example. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:53:58):
That's exactly right. It goes way beyond sports. It's everywhere.
Michael Salfino (00:54:02):
Well, like the CEOs that I was ... the hypothetical CEO that I was talking about.
Rob Collie (00:54:06):
Exactly. Right. And so this actually comes back to also the fooled by randomness thing as well. Right? How do you separate? And I agree with you that football is a wonderful example of this. Pat Mahomes can only be Pat Mahomes in a situation that is going to be conducive to him. With Jimmy Johnson of the Cowboys' dominant era, would Jimmy Johnson have allowed Pat Mahomes to be Pat Mahomes? Probably not. You know?
Rob Collie (00:54:35):
And also, here's one that Tom will appreciate. Tom Brady, who, as far as I know, is not known for his levels of graciousness. I don't think that's something he's known for, has said that Aaron Rodgers would be amazing if he got to play for Bill Belichick.
Michael Salfino (00:54:54):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:54:55):
Better than me, way better than me. You have no idea how many titles Aaron Rodgers would win playing for Bill Belichick.
Michael Salfino (00:55:01):
Which is why Mike McCarthy should be indicted for his head coaching. And he's doing the same thing in Dallas you got Dak Prescott throwing for like 7,000 yards a game.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:09):
Hey, just relax. We're okay with the job he's doing for Dallas.
Michael Salfino (00:55:14):
Because they should be 0-3. Think of how much happier the world would be. There would be a much higher level of happiness worldwide if the Cowboys, who are so close to 0-3, were actually 0-3 right now. 1-2 is good, but we would be dancing in the streets if the Cowboys were 0-3, like 95% of the world.
Thomas LaRock (00:55:34):
That's an example of the schedule though. They were fortunate to play Atlanta. That's all.
Rob Collie (00:55:39):
Yeah. Two forces conflicted. Atlanta must always lose.
Michael Salfino (00:55:43):
That's one of the 2-9-1 wins. The 2-9-1 NFC East, that's one of those wins. And the other one was NFC East versus NFC East, is the Redskins of all teams. What if I told you the Redskins would have the other win?
Rob Collie (00:55:57):
Wait, I don't-
Michael Salfino (00:55:57):
Well actually the Washington Football Team.
Rob Collie (00:55:58):
That's right.
Michael Salfino (00:55:59):
I did this in the chat too. I am so sorry because I am so ... I totally believe in the politics of the Redskins name change. And I actually like ... I made the joke on the FiveThirtyEight chat two weeks ago that it's like The Band. They should just call it the Washington Football Team.
Thomas LaRock (00:56:16):
Yeah. I agree.
Michael Salfino (00:56:16):
It's a great name. That is so cool. So I hate when I slip, but I can't ... there's a ghost in the machine, man. It's been too many years. I can't let that go as easily as I want to, morally.
Rob Collie (00:56:29):
Mike, you've also written, at least in the past, I think you've written for some psychology magazines. Isn't that right?
Michael Salfino (00:56:34):
I did. I wrote an article about facial recognition and why witness testimony me is completely invalid, because we're face blind to different races. And I wrote an article about the movie rating system and how basically everybody was gravitating towards PG-13, and violence was not something that they used to assess the suitability of a movie for an age group. So they were just jamming in all the violence that they wanted to. And the only thing they had to worry about was using the F word in a sexual context.
Rob Collie (00:57:16):
Or more than once.
Michael Salfino (00:57:17):
Or more once.
Rob Collie (00:57:18):
Because you're allowed one non-sexual F bomb.
Michael Salfino (00:57:21):
You are. You are. Exactly.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:24):
So, in the show notes, can we link to these articles? Can we remember to do that?
Michael Salfino (00:57:29):
Those are old ones.
Thomas LaRock (00:57:30):
I don't care. They sound fabulous.
Michael Salfino (00:57:32):
I think the face blindness was related to the Duke ... It was pegged to the Duke rape scandal where somebody was criticized of a different race for not being able to recognize the faces of the accused, white assailers. But that's just a natural product of the face blindness with race that I cited, based on other people's research.
Rob Collie (00:57:58):
So you also write for FiveThirtyEight. Do you stick to sports on FiveThirtyEight?
Michael Salfino (00:58:02):
I do. I would love to write about politics, but I could not be trusted. It would be like writing about the Jets. I'm too partisan to write about politics.
Rob Collie (00:58:13):
Being partisan, it's so rare in this day and age. I mean, you're such an outlier.
Thomas LaRock (00:58:23):
Most of us are just middle the road.
Rob Collie (00:58:24):
It's actually almost hard to trust someone that isn't partisan these days. Right?
Michael Salfino (00:58:28):
Nowadays, yeah. You know, it's so weird. I won't say really like what side I'm on. Although I guess you could kind of figure that out.
Rob Collie (00:58:38):
You could probably infer it.
Michael Salfino (00:58:39):
And this may be a male, female thing. I am far from a social butterfly. My wife is very socially outgoing. She had a big problem in this hyper partisan environment with having a lot of friends who were on the other side, and it was very upsetting. I had no problem. Every single person ... and it's not that many. There must have been some sort of test that had nothing to do with politics that I used to ferret people out, so that there was no one I knew who was on the other side. And you know, this is many generations of friends and probably 20, 25 people in total, at least, who I've stayed in pretty close contact with. To be 25 for 25 is kind of crazy.
Rob Collie (00:59:28):
That's awesome.
Michael Salfino (00:59:29):
But there's got to be something. I don't know if it's a male, female thing. I don't know if it's a social, anti-social thing. But maybe it's being judgmental. Maybe it's a bad quality in most cases that actually accrue to my benefit in this circumstance.
Thomas LaRock (00:59:47):
Doesn't that lead to confirmation bias? If you're surrounded by-
Rob Collie (00:59:52):
Yeah, it sounds like groupthink to me.
Michael Salfino (00:59:52):
Probably. Probably. Yeah.
Rob Collie (00:59:56):
They're all taking McCaffery at 1.1. All right. So politics though, right? Without the content of the politics, let's talk about sort of the analytics side of it.
Michael Salfino (01:00:09):
Yeah, just the numbers. Yeah. I love the numbers, man. This is at the sports level for me. So, go.
Rob Collie (01:00:16):
All right. So I've given you a little hint of this in the past, but I have a bit of a controversial ... I don't think it should be controversial, but its proven to be every time I bring it up with smart people. I mean, I get attacked. I get labeled as anti-intellectual and written off really quickly before they even really have a chance, I think, to hear what I'm really trying to say. Let me present the thesis in the least controversial way possible by saying that analytics, when applied to presidential elections, it's just bullshit. It just doesn't work. You know, it's like that old saying, so when you slap a probability on an event, like a 65% chance of this person winning. I think it's like The Naked Gun joke of he's got a 65% chance of winning, but only a 40% chance of that.
Rob Collie (01:01:07):
I think in situations where we have the benefit of many trials and many sort of similar circumstances, I think we have a much better chance at developing models that put a percentage chance on an outcome that is about as good as it can be. I don't think that any of our percentage predictions about something as big and as uncommon as a presidential election, I don't think it's that kind of game. I just don't think it is. I think the assumptions that the human beings building the models, assumptions that they're forced to make in order to build the models, are themselves the vectors of so much noise. And then combine that with the fact that on the day of the election, we'll say something like there's a 65% chance, before the first votes are cast, right? There's a 65% chance of this person winning.
Rob Collie (01:01:54):
It's not the same as a sports game. A Sports game, you don't know whether that ball is going to be ... when it's spinning and the guy tips it, is he going to hit the strings of the laces of the ball or not. That's going to change the trajectory of the tip. And the whole game can turn on something as small as that and completely random. Whereas, on the morning of an election, who's going to win, I think it does not hang on anything remotely like that. Who's going to win is already sort of known to the universe. It's just not known to us yet.
Michael Salfino (01:02:28):
I see what you're saying. But don't you think that the margin of the outcome can be random or can be attributed to randomness? So in other words, Trump won by 77,000 votes across the three states. If we had that election again, without anybody saying, "Oh my God, what did I do? I didn't even think Trump was going to win. I would've definitely not voted for a third party candidate," or any stuff like that. If we just had it again, without any fore knowledge, do you think that Trump would've won those three states by that combined margin again? Do you think that was just set in stone for perpetuity?
Rob Collie (01:03:07):
Well, I mean, it's sort of like the law of large numbers, et cetera, right? The handful of small, random events that lead to someone voting or not voting or changing their mind-
Michael Salfino (01:03:18):
Maybe there were 100,000 people who wanted to vote, but just got into an argument with a spouse or-
Rob Collie (01:03:26):
Right.
Michael Salfino (01:03:26):
Or the kid broke his leg. Who knows what could have happened, got sick.
Rob Collie (01:03:30):
That's right. I believe those things happen. But I believe that they happen in a way that tends to not sway the outcome very much because Democrats or Republicans more likely to get arguments with their spouses that morning. It's just like ... it's hard to have a lot of those random events pull in the same direction.
Michael Salfino (01:03:46):
Definitely Republicans.
Rob Collie (01:03:47):
Okay. Yeah.
Michael Salfino (01:03:48):
I don't want to be partisan.
Rob Collie (01:03:48):
No. Don't. You know.
Michael Salfino (01:03:48):
No. I have no idea.
Rob Collie (01:03:50):
I mean, you know. I think that the range of initial conditions in which the randomness that can happen in a single day would sway the outcome from one to the other, I think that's incredibly tiny. I just think that that happens like never. We never find ourselves in a situation where the amount of randomness that can happen in a single day will change the outcome from blue to red or vice versa. I just don't think we find ourselves in those initial conditions. It's just not that kind of thing.
Michael Salfino (01:04:18):
I thought the problem with the viability of the predictions for the last election were extrapolating national margins and not really focusing on the state polls, because historically the likelihood of the national polls consensus winner correlated so well to electoral success. But, I think even though that had happened previously with Bush and Gore, I think it happening again has changed the nature of the polling for this cycle.
Michael Salfino (01:04:52):
So even though the national margin that everybody relied on was more or less in line with the forecast, I don't think you're going to have that problem again this time.
Rob Collie (01:05:04):
Right.
Michael Salfino (01:05:04):
But the thing that interests me the most about what you said is whether a sporting event can be analogous to a percentile or a percentage prediction of a political outcome. And I guess that just has to do not necessarily with being able to assess how the people are going to vote at an individual level, but just creating some sort of uncertainty regarding the polling metrics that were used. Would that be a fair way to say what ... and plus, we only have a single trial outcome, right?
Rob Collie (01:05:40):
Right.
Michael Salfino (01:05:41):
So if there was, like some people said, a 95% chance or whatever it was of Hillary Clinton to win the last election, maybe in the multiverse she won 95% of the times, but we just happened to be in one of those 5% cases. But you rejected that when we spoke the out it previously.
Rob Collie (01:05:58):
First of all, I respect any method by which we get the word multiverse onto the podcast. This notion that quantum randomness actually results in forking universes from every point in time, so you get the multiverse. I don't believe that. I believe that even though there is a lot of quantum randomness that happens every day, that leads to unpredictability, you just can't predict the future. That over the large volume of voters, it just gets all kind of netted out to zero over the course of the day. So, no, I think in 2016, I bet there were almost like 99.999% of all multiverses, trump won that election. The only one's-
Michael Salfino (01:06:38):
You're depressing me.
Rob Collie (01:06:40):
Again, we don't know which side you're on.
Michael Salfino (01:06:42):
No, no, no. Hypothetically.
Rob Collie (01:06:45):
Yeah. Hypothetically, that might depress you if you had that ... The ones where he lost are ones where he just randomly had a heart attack that day and died, right? That's an example of one where he would lose, he's just not around to win. And eating that diet also doesn't doesn't help his chances.
Rob Collie (01:07:04):
I just think that it's what you said earlier about we made some mistakes in our modeling last time that we're not going to repeat. That, to me, is the other big part of it? It's really two key points. One is that yeah, we do. We have assumptions that we make, and this election we're likely to discover other methodology mistakes. There's going to be a new set of methodology mistakes. It's kind of like if they only played a football game in the entire world, they only played it one game every four years, the amount of change that would happen in the players and strategies and coaches and everything, it'd be so hard to produce a good model there.
Michael Salfino (01:07:38):
But don't you think of model was good in the sense that it did pretty accurately forecast the national margin? And now there's the theories or the models that Nate has developed over at FiveThirtyEight, which extrapolate the margin of polling differential into an electoral win probability. And so anything below 4% gives Trump a chance. But then once you get up to 6%, 7%, 8%, it's a very small chance that that can be overcome.
Rob Collie (01:08:10):
Well, this starts to remind me of the CEO example, right? You have a product that succeeds and then you have a product that doesn't succeed. You just don't get enough trials really to evaluate whether a certain methodology is effective. Like this is the highest stakes, small sample size, low number of trials. I think the number of trials in this science is essentially almost always one.
Michael Salfino (01:08:32):
But what about ... can't you take ... Just from of polling, couldn't you take all the polling results and sort of grade the pollers, like FiveThirtyEight does? And come up with a model that was reliable. In other words, it's not just the presidential cycles, but polling is polling, right? As far as the election, all of those elections wouldn't those be reasonable tests of polling accuracy?
Rob Collie (01:08:56):
Maybe. But two things. Number one, I think I've dragged this out too long. Probably boring everybody to death. It's only interesting to me. And two, I don't know. I mean a presidential election is a presidential election. It's got different things going on. And we're going to find out, right? We're going to find out, especially in this election, we really don't know qualitatively what all the extra factors are going to be like. We're even wondering ... There is even articles right now wondering whether or not the loser of the election accepts that they lose.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:27):
We're not worried about the loser accepting the results. We're worried about one person accepting the results.
Michael Salfino (01:09:33):
But that person doesn't ... We don't need that person to accept the results. Where is it written that the loser has to accept losing?
Thomas LaRock (01:09:39):
It's true.
Michael Salfino (01:09:39):
Can the Jets actually just not accept losing? Would their record be better?
Rob Collie (01:09:44):
I've often wondered that. If a team just said-
Michael Salfino (01:09:47):
"We won this game. No."
Rob Collie (01:09:48):
"You ruled it a turnover, but we're not going to give you the ball." I've always wondered how long it would go before they'd actually have to pay up.
Thomas LaRock (01:09:56):
Fake interception. It just didn't happen. Mulligan. I get to do that one over.
Rob Collie (01:10:01):
Atlanta will come back and say, "Listen, you see what just happened? That's not actually possible. We all agree that that's not possible."
Michael Salfino (01:10:07):
Or Atlanta could just say you should take the probability of each game and turn that into a winning percentage, and that's our record.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:13):
Sure.
Michael Salfino (01:10:14):
Totally rational argument.
Thomas LaRock (01:10:15):
They'd still be 0-3, I think.
Rob Collie (01:10:17):
All right. Well, one thing I want to make sure we do is I want to give the people listening ... I want to give them a chance to track you down. You're Michael Salfino.
Michael Salfino (01:10:24):
MichaelSalfino on Twitter. I'm going to be doing a analytics site for gambling and also for player forecasting in terms of prop bets. That site is called Bet Prep. But it's just a tool for people to sort of mine data, as opposed to ... It doesn't give you the picks. It just avails the database and all of the historical games and statistics to you for your strategies. And I write for the Athletic, occasionally for the Wall Street Journal. And at FiveThirtyEight I do the chats every Monday on the NFL.
Rob Collie (01:11:02):
And everyone that plays fantasy football with me, you can just tune out right now. Just turn off your ears. It's cool. The podcast is over. But for those of you who stuck around, you also do the Breakfast Table podcast.
Michael Salfino (01:11:16):
Yes. Oh, I should have said that. Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:11:18):
Yeah.
Michael Salfino (01:11:19):
Okay. Members only.
Rob Collie (01:11:21):
Yeah, members only. I'm in the big spender bucket. I'm in the $7 a month.
Michael Salfino (01:11:25):
Yeah. $7 a month. You get everything.
Rob Collie (01:11:28):
And I even leave it active during baseball season. I just feel like that's how it ends up being a fair price for it. I don't turn it off during baseball season. I never tune in.
Michael Salfino (01:11:38):
We made more money when we just let people give us whatever they wanted, because some people would just like give us $100 or even more.
Rob Collie (01:11:46):
Right. Yeah.
Michael Salfino (01:11:48):
But I didn't know. I have no idea the way to do it. We're grateful that in a world where there are so many fantasy football podcasts, that people think that this is a worthy product that they want to pay for is flattering.
Rob Collie (01:12:01):
I know I'm trying to wrap this up, but it reminds me of the ...I think this was in Freakonomics where the daycare was tired of parents picking up their kids late. So they decided to impose a $20 fine.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:13):
Right.
Michael Salfino (01:12:13):
Yeah.
Rob Collie (01:12:13):
And instead, late pickups exploded.
Michael Salfino (01:12:16):
Yes, because it was like, "20 bucks. I don't even have feel guilty."
Rob Collie (01:12:19):
Yeah. It's like the $20 guilt tax.
Michael Salfino (01:12:21):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:24):
Wait, you'll watch my kid for another hour for 20 bucks?
Michael Salfino (01:12:27):
Right. It's way more of a motivation to not have to feel guilty than it is to just feel like you could pay 20 bucks and get the service.
Rob Collie (01:12:34):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:34):
That's awesome.
Rob Collie (01:12:35):
Yeah.
Michael Salfino (01:12:35):
As a former parent with kids in those situations, trust me, I would've been spending that $20 liberally.
Rob Collie (01:12:43):
I've really enjoyed this. I know Tom has as well. I told Tom ahead of time that he was going to love you. And he said, "Well, I'm married, but you know, maybe."
Michael Salfino (01:12:52):
Look, if Jets and Patriot fans can get together.
Thomas LaRock (01:12:55):
We can. Absolutely. I have no problem. Of course, I've been successful for two decades.
Michael Salfino (01:12:59):
Exactly.
Rob Collie (01:13:00):
So Tom still associates himself with the team. Earlier he said like we have to fly out to the ... he's on the plane, you know?
Thomas LaRock (01:13:07):
Absolutely.
Rob Collie (01:13:07):
He sits next to Belichick, going over film.
Michael Salfino (01:13:10):
Really the Patriot ... How could the Patriots have had this success without Tom being a fan?
Rob Collie (01:13:14):
They say the fans important. They're really talking about Tom.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:17):
Oh no, no, no. I'm sorry, but I've been a fan through all the lean years too. The Rod Rust era.
Michael Salfino (01:13:24):
Oh, stop with your lean. I'm so tired. The Boston sports victimhood is gone, forever.
Rob Collie (01:13:31):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:13:31):
I'm just saying, I survived the Rod Rust era. I was fan when they were 1-15 and the only win was against the Colts. I remember that season. So I'm not a bandwagon. That's why I guess I'm trying say.
Michael Salfino (01:13:44):
Yeah. And I totally respect. Let's put it this way. I have no respect for bandwagon fans. You have to stick with it. People say, "Why are you still a jet ..." Like my wife all the time. "Why are you a Jet's fan? You don't have to be." It's like, "You don't understand." I don't even mind. I'll wear my Jets hat when the Jets are like, now. I'm not going to do it when they're playing well. You know what I mean? Because I don't want to seem like I'm on the bandwagon with the Jets. Now, this is when the true fans come out, now.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:15):
Agreed.
Rob Collie (01:14:16):
Yeah. This is when the true irrationality comes out, where we associate ourselves with something that is totally beyond our control.
Michael Salfino (01:14:24):
Name something else that people could have loved since they were like seven years old, the same way they love right now, the same way they love those things right now. There's really nothing else other than a sports team.
Thomas LaRock (01:14:34):
Peanut butter.
Michael Salfino (01:14:34):
You know what? I agree with that.
Rob Collie (01:14:37):
Yeah.
Michael Salfino (01:14:37):
I agree with peanut butter.
Rob Collie (01:14:40):
I stipulate peanut butter.
Michael Salfino (01:14:43):
Non food.
Rob Collie (01:14:46):
I love sports, obviously. At the same time though, I just don't think that we need any mechanisms growing up that teaches tribalism. I really-
Michael Salfino (01:14:57):
But we're tribal. So why not have something really safe, like being tribal for a sports team than something that's actually dangerous?
Rob Collie (01:15:04):
I Agree.
Michael Salfino (01:15:04):
Excluding Eagles fans, of course. Because that's dangerous. They're dangerous anyway.
Rob Collie (01:15:08):
No one ever gives us the lesson as well, which is ... and don't extend this to other parts of your life. This is the one place in your life that you get to be like this. But when you put this down, don't be this way. I would love that.
Michael Salfino (01:15:22):
But it's not like I'm a face painter, you know. There's tribal and there's tribal. I think you could be a fan without being completely ... I'm like Groucho Marx, man. I'm not going to be in any club that would have me as a member. There's no way I'm going to go over the moon like some people do. I have to keep a somewhat ... I have to keep a safe distance for appearances. But inwardly, trust me, I have my face painted.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:50):
I'll give you a quick story. It was years ago. I'm watching the game. You remember Jerry Glanville?
Michael Salfino (01:15:55):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:15:55):
He had stopped coaching and he was announcing. And this defender did everything right. Everything right. Just perfect defense. And the guy still made the catch. And Jerry said, "Well, when he gets the sideline, what you say is the offense gets paid too."
Michael Salfino (01:16:11):
Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:12):
And the thing is, Jerry, he wouldn't be screaming at the guy. He would just say, "You know what, we got beat by a good play." You shake somebody's hand. And we're never taught that compassion, that empathy for somebody else and just congratulate, "Hey, you know what? You beat me." Instead. it's yelling and screaming. "You suck."
Michael Salfino (01:16:28):
"You cheated. This is rigged."
Thomas LaRock (01:16:30):
Like, "I can't believe I lost at this." And that is what's really missing. The tribalism isn't really the issue. It's having compassion for the other person.
Rob Collie (01:16:38):
Yes.
Michael Salfino (01:16:39):
Yeah. So see, you Patriot fans should be more compassionate to us Jet fans.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:44):
I do my best.
Michael Salfino (01:16:46):
Sure you do.
Thomas LaRock (01:16:48):
I have no issue with the ... I really don't. There are very few teams in sports I hate. I don't hate the Jets. Why would I hate the Jets? You're not good. There's no reason to hate you.
Michael Salfino (01:16:57):
And that's why we hate the Patriots. You just summed it up.
Rob Collie (01:17:01):
It's that condescending ... you know, that pity.
Thomas LaRock (01:17:02):
But no, it's true. I don't. There's very few teams I hate, and the Jets are not on that list.
Michael Salfino (01:17:11):
Well, hopefully one day we will be worthy of your hatred.
Rob Collie (01:17:16):
We aspire. Yeah.
Michael Salfino (01:17:18):
Definitely.
Rob Collie (01:17:19):
Mike, we've enjoyed the hell out this.
Michael Salfino (01:17:21):
It's been a lot of fun. I hope it's good for you guys. I was just winging it, so sorry if I-
Thomas LaRock (01:17:27):
No, you're good.
Michael Salfino (01:17:28):
Sorry if I talk too much.
Rob Collie (01:17:29):
Are you kidding?
Michael Salfino (01:17:31):
Okay.
Rob Collie (01:17:31):
Do you know where you came to?
Michael Salfino (01:17:33):
All right.
Rob Collie (01:17:34):
So Mike, we've got an election coming up. We'll definitely want to have you back on after that.
Michael Salfino (01:17:39):
Oh my God. I may be ... you may have to contact me in Canada or Italy. I found out I could move to Italy. They treat me as a citizen. I could just go to Italy.
Rob Collie (01:17:48):
Really?
Michael Salfino (01:17:48):
Yeah. If you have any Italian blood, you can move to Italy, no strings attached. Go there and they take you. My wife, get the hell out. She's got to figure it out.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:02):
I have this. I can go?
Michael Salfino (01:18:03):
All you have to do is prove any Italian blood and you're Italian in the eyes of Italy. It's like the mob.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:09):
I didn't know this.
Rob Collie (01:18:10):
I wonder if Luke has any Italian blood with the last name of Pierazoli.
Thomas LaRock (01:18:18):
My great-grandparents came off the boat. I've got the blood, I've got the documents to prove it.
Michael Salfino (01:18:22):
I'll see you there, November 5th.
Rob Collie (01:18:26):
As long as we're all not out in the streets fighting the second American civil war.
Michael Salfino (01:18:32):
Oh my God.
Rob Collie (01:18:33):
We'll have you back on. How does that sound?
Michael Salfino (01:18:35):
Yeah, that'd be great. I appreciate it, guys.
Rob Collie (01:18:37):
Awesome.
Michael Salfino (01:18:37):
Okay.
Rob Collie (01:18:37):
Awesome. Looking forward to it.
Michael Salfino (01:18:39):
Thanks a lot.
Announcer (01:18:40):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email. Lukep, L-U-K-E-P@powerpivotpro.com. Have a day today!
In our inaugural episode, Rob and Tom cover all this and more:
- The slow decline of the “storage only” professional
- Tom has some unkind words for a rock and roll superstar
- Why SQL Batman had to retire
- The rise of hybrid IT/Business professionals
- Why are database administrators (DBA’s) such a miserable crew?
- Rob shares a great story about a former colleague who pissed off Steve Ballmer
- Why storage has gone “curly” but analysis remains “rectangular”
- How discovering Power BI feels like you’re the first person to discover fire
Episode Transcript:
Rob Collie (00:00):
Okay, welcome. So this is our inaugural episode and our first guest is also going to be our ongoing 75% co-host; 75% only because his schedule won't always allow him to join us, but he's Tom, or Thomas LaRock. Now, I've known Tom for over a decade and he's just a fantastic human.
Rob Collie (00:22):
I hope you're going to find that to be a theme here on Raw Data with our guests and various participants. But data-wise, the thing I've always found so compelling about Tom, his crossover status. Now, here's a guy who branded himself publicly as SQL rockstar for years, and he kind of still does. And you'd think that pretty much cements him as a storage professional.
Rob Collie (00:44):
But basically the whole time I've known him, he's been trumpeting the idea that analytics are the real show. Now, in my experience, that sort of crossover is atypical and it's super valuable and it speaks to why I'm thrilled to have him as my fractionally available co-host and as our first guest. So how do we get this started? Luke, do you think we could do one of those like fancy produced intros with music and stuff?
Luke (01:11):
Yes. The budget did allow for a fancy produced intro.
Rob Collie (01:14):
Oh yeah?
Luke (01:15):
Yep.
Rob Collie (01:16):
Well, let's do it then.
Announcer (01:18):
Ladies, may I have your attention please?
Announcer (01:22):
This is the Raw Data by P3 podcast, with your host, Rob Collie, and your co-host, Thomas LaRock. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Raw Data by P3 is data with the human element.
Rob Collie (01:40):
Welcome to Raw Data. I'm your host, Rob Collie, CEO and founder of P3, powerpivotpro.com. And Tom.
Thomas LaRock (01:50):
Hi, Thomas LaRock here. I am a head geek at SolarWinds.
Rob Collie (01:56):
Thomas. He's Thomas LaRock.
Thomas LaRock (01:58):
Thomas.
Rob Collie (01:59):
Yeah. And who else do we have here with us?
Luke (02:01):
My name is Luke. I'm talk radio guy in South Florida. And I'm the guy that knows nothing about data.
Rob Collie (02:09):
So welcome to the first ever edition of Raw Data. I'm really excited by the crew we've got here. So let's jump right in. Tom, we've... Or should I call you Thomas?
Thomas LaRock (02:23):
You call me Tom. I usually introduce myself as Thomas just that people don't think it's like John or Dom or something like that.
Rob Collie (02:30):
I see. Thomas is easier to parse. I get it. But I just wonder if you were one of those guys that changed his name at some point, like you grew up. Because I've always known you as Tom. But Thomas. So we've known each other now for... We had our 10 year anniversary recently, didn't we?
Thomas LaRock (02:49):
Yes, we did. It was 10 years ago, this past June.
Rob Collie (02:53):
Yeah. It's crazy. It was like it was just yesterday. So we have interesting complimentary backgrounds, you and I, and that's why I think I was really excited to do this with you. What's your handle on Twitter?
Thomas LaRock (03:07):
SQL Rockstar.
Rob Collie (03:08):
SQL rockstar. Now, Luke here, in his day job, he actually interviews real rock stars. He just had Sammy Hagar.
Thomas LaRock (03:21):
Oh, I thought you said rock stars.
Rob Collie (03:22):
Oh, cold. All right. Well, he had Jason Newsted. How's that?
Thomas LaRock (03:30):
I don't even know who that is.
Rob Collie (03:34):
I'm starting to regret my selection of cohost. He was the basis for Metallica for a while.
Thomas LaRock (03:42):
Oh, yeah. Okay.
Rob Collie (03:44):
Not anymore. Luke is really kind of slumming it with us. He's gone from real rock stars to SQL rock stars.
Thomas LaRock (03:53):
Wow.
Rob Collie (03:54):
I know, I know. I mean, it's not like I'm any better. I'm not Sam Hagar. Anyway, in a previous conversation, I said, hey, well, I come from sort of like the analytics and business intelligence side of the world. And then I said that your background originated more on the storage side and you kind of recoiled just a little bit. It didn't seem like it was right to you. And then you thought about it. So what does storage mean to you? Is it the right word? Am I using the right word?
Thomas LaRock (04:32):
Well, I think you are using the right word. I just never thought of it in that manner. To me, when I hear storage, I think of the guys in charge of the SANs or racking servers and things of that nature. The storage admin, there's doing storage. I was a database administrator. I never really thought about it.
Thomas LaRock (04:53):
But in a way it is storage because it's the storing of the data. So the data has to go into an engine and then to disk and then from disk back through the engine and back to the client. So yeah, you could think of it as storage. I usually think of it or I usually tell people the focus was on the internals of the database engine itself. In this case it would be Microsoft SQL server.
Rob Collie (05:18):
Yeah. So a lot of the history of the analytics industry and the business intelligence industry is we're still, I think, in the middle of a multi decade hangover of the influence of the storage industry on the way that a lot of analytics were, even from a software industry perspective. By necessity, there have been so many storage professionals. Storage and retrieval.
Rob Collie (05:51):
If you can't store data and recall it, you can't run a business. You can't even execute a transaction. Whether you're doing any reporting or analytics or not, storage is table stakes. And so when we met, I had recently joined Twitter within the last six months before we met, we met in what? It was like May of 2010, somewhere in there anyway. We just celebrated our 10 anniversary, I should know this. But I forget. I'm that guy.
Thomas LaRock (06:23):
You forgot our anniversary?
Luke (06:26):
Shame.
Rob Collie (06:27):
Yeah, I know. I know. And so I had joined like the data channels on Twitter. I had done the right thing. I had gone and I joined the data channels and I quickly discovered that almost everyone on those channels were storage professionals. They were primarily database administrators, DBAs. So when I walked up to you and I got introduced at that live tweet event that was, I don't know, it was kind of a funny thing that people used to do.
Thomas LaRock (06:53):
Remember we used to meet people and go places?
Rob Collie (06:57):
Yeah. That was radical stuff. But do you remember the first question I had for you?
Thomas LaRock (07:02):
I do. I do. It was essentially the clean version is, why are DBAs so miserable?
Rob Collie (07:13):
It's quite an opener.
Thomas LaRock (07:15):
It is quite an opener. I was stunned because I remember looking at and going, first of all, who the hell is this guy? And secondly, how does he know us so well?
Rob Collie (07:27):
The power of Twitter, man.
Thomas LaRock (07:30):
Yeah, you've been stalking us. And clearly I had no defense. I wasn't about to sit there and tell you, "Oh no, we're the happiest bunch of people. What are you talking about?" I sort of looked at you and I'm like, "I don't know why we're so miserable. I have some ideas as to why we're so miserable." And I think we talked through some of those ideas.
Thomas LaRock (07:52):
And if I recall, towards the end of that initial conversation, your comment to me was basically we were just like the Excel community. We had a lot of the same traits. Part of our misery was rooted in working, not just with data, but with users of data.
Thomas LaRock (08:17):
And it was interesting to find the parallel between what I thought was a unique group of individuals, this database administration community, and all of a sudden the Excel community. I'm like, what do we have in common? We actually have so much more in common than I had ever realized. So you're question really opened up a brand new perspective for me at that moment in time and going forward.
Rob Collie (08:47):
Yeah. The common thread there, I think, is a community. Although really the Excel people don't really have a community. They're a demographic, if you will, but they don't really have a community in the same way that the DBAs do. They make the world go round. The world runs because of... And I know there's lots of people that make the world run, but DBAs and Excel people, people who are good at Excel, these are incredibly essential roles for the world that no one really sees or appreciates what really goes into it.
Rob Collie (09:25):
And so when they interface with the rest of the business world, they tend to be taken for granted, even though what they do is some pretty arcane skills that are developed there. But yeah, the Excel people don't have a water cooler in the same way. I have been more recently monitoring things like the accounting sub Reddit. Okay. Now here we go. Here's where the grumpiness is. Yeah. There's some Excel grumpiness. It's the same kind of blowing off steam outlet as what I was seeing on Twitter back 10 years ago.
Thomas LaRock (10:03):
Yeah. I've often referred to just the internet in general as a cesspool of misery. But then you get into that dark corner called Reddit and you're going to just find I think a lot of people more... Maybe it's the anonymity. You don't have to really use your real name and you can just sort of vent.
Thomas LaRock (10:24):
And I think for some people, Reddit is just a place where they can vent. But for an outsider like me, I'm not really active in Reddit. I can go there and I'm like, "Wow, these people are really miserable." No. Actually, they just need to vent.
Rob Collie (10:37):
Maybe. Although honestly I find Reddit, and again, I curate what I consume from Reddit rather than just like taking the default feed, but I find it to be the most intelligent and civil corner of the internet. But again, it's probably because I've tuned it.
Thomas LaRock (10:55):
Oh yeah. Absolutely. There are corners of Reddit where people are civil. Absolutely. And then there are some horrible, horrible places. But for all that, nothing's as bad as YouTube comments.
Rob Collie (11:11):
That's what Joe Rogan says.
Thomas LaRock (11:12):
That is the worst, worst thing.
Rob Collie (11:16):
Yeah. I don't think I've ever really gone down that rabbit hole, so I'm going to probably stay away. Circling back, where you and I sort of found I think almost immediate common ground was in the notion that I had come originally from the Excel community. That's what I worked on at Microsoft for a very long time, was worked on Excel before I got involved in the business intelligence side of software.
Rob Collie (11:44):
And now for the last 10 years been running a company in that space, a consulting company. Where these two worlds meet is where an extra kind of value is created from data. So there's the primary usage of data, which is running the transaction. Someone buys something, for example, you've got to record the transaction. You've got to process it. You've got to make sure that they paid, all that kind of stuff.
Rob Collie (12:11):
Obviously that's primary usage of data in business is to make the actual transactions operate. But then there's this secondary value of data and the secondary value is mining it, if you will, for insights about your business to improve and optimize. And that's where I've been. For a while out there, I was a SQL server MVP. Microsoft had knighted me as a SQL server MVP and I don't know SQL at all because the BI stuff was looped in with it.
Rob Collie (12:44):
But one of the things I found super, super, super compelling about you over the years, Tom, is that you don't view where you came from as the only thing. You're evolving. And you've been very, very open and enthusiastic about the world of analytics, BI, whatever you want to call it. Whereas not everyone in your original community, your community of origin, where I met you, not everyone in your community that you came from is like that. And you are exceptional in this regard. You're not the only one.
Thomas LaRock (13:18):
Right. I don't think I'm exceptional, but you are absolutely right. There are lots of people that would have you understand that let's say you were at an event, a large three-day conference, and it was SQL server focus event. Then everything should be core engine, deep dive, 500 level sessions.
Thomas LaRock (13:39):
And wait, what's this thing? Business intelligence? We don't need any of those sessions here. Go somewhere else. And those people absolutely exist. They still exist today. There's fewer I would say today, but they're out there. They used to be a lot more.
Rob Collie (13:54):
Where'd they go? If they're not there anymore, where did they go?
Thomas LaRock (13:59):
I think they've started just disengaging with the community as a whole. Because the middle ground, the middle class, they have kind of embraced a little bit more of the analytics space because it's everywhere now. It's prevalent all over. You can't get away from it. I think some of those more extreme people just don't find comfort in being around or say they just don't feel that's the group for them anymore.
Thomas LaRock (14:25):
They want to be with people that are really just core engine. That's it. So we certainly had that, like when you and I first met, those people were out there. I wouldn't say I was one of them, but I would say I was kind of stuck in my own little silo. I had my own blinders on for my own reasons. It was just stuff that I was working with and I wasn't really exposed to as much. But over time I was exposed to it.
Thomas LaRock (14:51):
I have a background in mathematics. And so for a lot of it, it was kind of interesting and familiar to me. And of course, a few years after that, that's when data science started becoming an actual term, which was interesting again. I see a lot of these people saying, "Oh, well..." I'd also worked on my Six Sigma certifications at the time. I think I got green belt at the time. And that was a lot of stats.
Thomas LaRock (15:22):
And these people were just mesmerized by being able to understand what a standard deviation was and how to apply it and how to use it. It was the application of these tools in order to get insights from your data. And I liked it. So I continue to kind of try to absorb a little bit of that. Meanwhile, I still have one leg in, hey, what's happening inside the engine? Somebody's going to come to me and say, "My query is slow. I need to make it faster." And I want to be able to help them too.
Thomas LaRock (15:54):
But I also want people to come to me and say, "Hey, sales are down. What can we do?" "Oh, well, what data do we have?" "I don't know." "Let me help you sort this out and figure out if I can find any value for you." So yeah, it was an interesting time, I think, around 2010. And I think that's when BI really started getting more mainstream. There was a lot of work by Microsoft for reporting services.
Thomas LaRock (16:21):
Of course, when Power BI came out, I want to say it was about five years ago now. So there's a lot of work by Microsoft to help turn the corner. I mean, they even changed the name of, I'm no longer a SQL server MVP. I'm now a data platform MVP. So even the wording and everything about it has kind of changed and been a little bit more welcoming is what I would say. So these days I think most people are very comfortable with the idea that they might have to have one foot in the analytics space as well inside the database engine.
Rob Collie (16:55):
Yeah. It seems like such obvious, low hanging fruit, if you're already up to your eyeballs in the data platform in various ways. Why not even just from a career standpoint go and pick up that secondary value? You're like nine tenths of the away there maybe. The challenge though, of course, is always the human element. The more someone identifies as an IT professional, typically the less business interested they happen to be. And this is a very, very broad brush.
Rob Collie (17:28):
So people are listening to this right now going, "Wait, I'm in IT and I'm obsessed with business." Well, yes. And that's great. And that's actually a rising trend, this idea of the hybrid. I'm running into all kinds of people these days with job titles that so clearly scream one foot in IT and one foot in the business. And that's the way of the future, I think.
Rob Collie (17:51):
But there's still a pretty strong center of mass there for if you think of yourself as IT, you're focused on the tech and not necessarily even as interested in the business problem. And that's the human component of it. I think that if you view BI and analytics as just another part of the stack, just another part of the technology toolkit, well, that's where we've come from. The entire BI industry has always been like that.
Rob Collie (18:22):
And spoiler alert, it's never worked. That mindset has never once worked. It's this hybrid mindset and the tools that enable it that are really changing things right now. Boy, I've really buried the lead here. Here's the question I have for you, and it's a two parter.
Thomas LaRock (18:41):
Oh, you didn't say there'd be a quiz.
Rob Collie (18:43):
Yeah. You can't be wrong about this. I'm going to ask you both parts at the same time so you have an opportunity to contemplate both answers simultaneously. So you're SQL Rockstar on Twitter. That's your brand. That's in many ways synonymous with you. And you know how rebranding is. Rebranding is very difficult. So when did you first get into storage? When did you first get into SQL server?
Thomas LaRock (19:08):
Oh, early two thousands. Let's just put a stick and say 2003 ish. I was programmer/developer before that and using Sybase and Oracle and SQL server. But around 2003 was when I started doing more the database administration role.
Rob Collie (19:27):
Okay. So let's set 2003 as just semi arbitrary milestone and say you could go back to 2003 and tell your 2003 self, "Hey, self, when you get around to branding yourself, here's what you should call yourself." Would it still be SQL Rockstar? That's question number one.
Thomas LaRock (19:51):
Oh, I'm sorry. Do you want me to wait? Okay. I'll wait.
Rob Collie (19:54):
Well, I was hoping for a little bit more than a one word answer as well, but I'm sure. You're as long-winded as I am, so we're a good pairing. The second question is if you could instantaneously rebrand your Twitter, for example, today, you could pick another handle today and have it be retroactively what you always had been, would it be the same as your answer for 2003? If you could just pivot today with no switching cost.
Thomas LaRock (20:21):
Here's something that I guess you didn't know about me. I've already changed my Twitter handle once.
Rob Collie (20:26):
Oh, I did remember that. Yeah. You were just Thomas the Rock for a while, weren't you?
Thomas LaRock (20:30):
No.
Rob Collie (20:30):
What?
Thomas LaRock (20:31):
I was SQL Batman.
Rob Collie (20:33):
No, you weren't.
Thomas LaRock (20:34):
I was SQL Batman. And I was SQL Batman because in my role, that's basically what you are. You're Batman. Something goes wrong, they call you and you come in and you're superhero and you have to fix it. You're just like, I'm Batman. And I had that for maybe almost a full year of being on Twitter at first. I had stickers that said SQL Batman with the bat logo. I had all this stuff going on. That's what I was originally doing.
Thomas LaRock (21:05):
And I ran into some issues with licensing, if you can imagine. If I wanted to get stickers printed up and use a service, they'd be like, "We're not doing this. You can't use that." And I'm like, "Come on. I'm harmless." But no, there's a whole thing about protecting trademark and copyrights. So I got tired of trying to utilize the SQL Batman. I even had sqlbatman.com.
Thomas LaRock (21:38):
I just made change and I said, you know what? I'm going to change my blog to be thomaslarock.com. I'll just use my name for that. But for Twitter, I'll use the handle SQL Rockstar. And the reason I chose rockstar, my last name is LaRock. I've had the nickname the Moniker Rockstar since I was about 16. My friends in high school, like LaRock, rockstar. It's just the way it was.
Thomas LaRock (22:03):
So I decided I would just call myself rockstar. But at the time the rockstar movie was out and that was yet another problem. So I just said put SQL in front of it and then it's what I own and I'll move forward with things. And if I could go back, I'd probably tell myself, "No, do data rockstar instead." But honestly, these days I look and I go, "Just use your name."
Thomas LaRock (22:25):
There's no reason to have the thing at the time. It was what pretty much most of the cool kids were doing on Twitter at the time. If you were inside of the database community, you were using SQL in front of everything and being cute. And I did it and I've never bothered to change it. So yeah, if I could go back in time, I would tell myself have more of a different focus. If I wanted to use a cute Moniker, it'd probably be Data Rockstar, Data Pro, or something like that.
Thomas LaRock (22:58):
If you notice, actually for a while, I didn't use my real name. It was at SQL Rockstar and the name was also SQL Rockstar. I changed a few years back to put my real name in there. So you can see Thomas LaRock and at SQL rockstar. That was kind of my compromise for myself instead of just changing my handle, which I don't think I could do, because once I got verified, you can't touch things. Otherwise they take away your check mark. You don't want to lose the check mark. The check mark makes me legit.
Rob Collie (23:25):
Oh yeah. That's right. That's why I invited you. It's the check mark. We needed more check mark. Infinite percentage increase in check marks on the show. So yeah, data rockstar. That would've been good. I could get behind that. Here's a hypothesis of mine. That's more than a hypothesis. This is an opinion of mine. It's been really interesting. I've watched this evolve over probably almost a full 20 years I've been watching this story and it's basically that storage changes all the time, but analysis is...
Rob Collie (24:00):
Actually, there's all kinds of technological improvements that allow us to do things fast or do things better, lower friction, et cetera. There's been a lot of big changes on that front. That's really like the reason why my company even exists is because of how much change is happening and already has happened in that space. But at Microsoft's in the early two thousands, about the same time that you were getting into SQL server for the first time, Microsoft was really struggling with this, starting to wake up to the idea that data might not be just stored in tables.
Rob Collie (24:39):
That data might not always be table shaped. And this was really causing almost like an existential crisis in the data world at Microsoft. And it's really funny. I got to read white papers written by like the architects that even at the time were being paid like $3 million a year. These really high [inaudible 00:25:00] flu white papers that sounded really smart. And from what I remember them now, they have no whole bearing on where the world actually went.
Rob Collie (25:11):
They were just completely off. Basically the answer was, oh, well, we'll just make it so that we can also store XML blobs in SQL server and that'll take care of it. I mean, there are all kinds of funny things. There are so many funny things to reflect on. But while the storage half of Microsoft was freaking out about this and while often in the shadows things like Hadoop were being born that was the real answer to this crisis. Not XML of blobs in SQL.
Rob Collie (25:49):
The analysis world was also panicking about it at Microsoft. Something really fundamental about the way that we work was potentially at risk. And there was another architect at Microsoft who had decided to kind of crash the Excel team for about a year. He just needed a place to land. This guy had been around forever. He came to the Excel team to tell us that the Excel grid, rows and columns, that was old fashioned, that was outdated, and that was going to go away. We needed all of that sort of jagged, heterogeneous content, where like, how do you store a webpage?
Rob Collie (26:32):
That the content of a webpage doesn't fit into a row oriented storage that well, does it? And each web page is different. Every different piece of information might have different columns if you were going to try to store it in a column oriented way. And he was convinced that that same phenomenon was coming for Excel. That every row of data in Excel might have a different column set than the previous row and Excels whole formula language, everything needed to be redone to accommodate this.
Rob Collie (27:11):
Now, of course, we now have the benefit of hindsight, 15, 17 years later, this hasn't happened and no one's dying for it either. But remember, this is like a main man at Microsoft. This is someone that gates himself. He was almost like a lieutenant of him. And at that point in my career, I'd already finally learned enough to know when someone was just like totally off the rails. And he was so much more senior than I. The only card I had to play against him was just to repeatedly say like Tom Hanks in big, to say, "I don't get it," just over and over and over again.
Rob Collie (27:55):
Rows and columns. We've had rows and columns in Excel forever. Everyone's played battleship. They know how to line up a row and a column and give it a coordinate. Your thing. I don't get it.
Thomas LaRock (28:07):
It's a great strategy.
Rob Collie (28:11):
I also knew that it would work because my superiors had made it very clear to me that we weren't going to do stupid, like crazy computer science things with the Excel product. We had more responsible things to do. But none of them really wanted to go toe to toe with this guy. So they kind of put me out there. But I knew who was writing my review.
Rob Collie (28:34):
And this guy would go around and tell everybody behind my back that, "Whenever I bring this up with Rob, that guy, that guy, he's just done. He's just done." He was so obnoxious. He's basically telling everyone that I was too stupid to understand what he was going for. But again, even him now, all these years later, he would probably admit that analysis is rows.
Rob Collie (29:00):
The only things that you analyze are the things that are in common between like if you've got like 15 rows of data or 5 million rows of data, and some of them don't have certain columns, well, you wouldn't be including those in your analysis unless you had common attributes in each row of data that was interesting to analyze. Otherwise that row wouldn't even be involved.
Rob Collie (29:29):
So the way I've been boiling this down for people lately is that... And this architect, he described this odd heterogeneous storage, he described it as curly data. And I liked that. I like that idea, curly data. And like you need to go store the internet for a search engine, damn straight that's curly data. That is not nice, clean tables.
Rob Collie (29:55):
But when it's analysis time, analysis you're always pulling rectangles. You're always extracting rectangular table shaped row sets in order to perform the analysis. That's separate from the storage. So the query engines that have been built over time that allow you to retrieve data from things like Hadoop. Well, how many sequel-like interfaces have now been built to pull regular shapes out of those sources?
Rob Collie (30:32):
So my world of analysis has, at least until now, been very well insulated from the storage revolution in terms of, what do you want to call it? Curly data. The curly data storage revolution. And the same way that analysis wasn't disrupted terribly much by the transition from tape reels to hard drives, the fundamentals of what you were doing, the technology was different, but the fundamentals of what you were doing were not rewritten just because we started storing things differently. That was a monologue. That's one of my things. What's your reaction? I've never told you that story before. I don't think so.
Thomas LaRock (31:14):
No, I don't. And my first reaction is, is that person still at Microsoft?
Rob Collie (31:19):
No.
Thomas LaRock (31:19):
And I need to know right now. I was going to say later you're going to tell me who that is.
Rob Collie (31:26):
Before we move on then, I won't tell you who it is, but A, he left Microsoft in a huff shortly after that, after he did not get his way on that. Right. I kind of get to almost like paint a silhouette of him on my airplane. And he famously when he told Ballmer he was leaving, Ballmer threw a chair across the room. So now you know everything you need to know to look up who this was.
Thomas LaRock (31:53):
Threw a chair across the room, because Ballmer wanted him to stay. Huh?
Rob Collie (31:58):
Yeah. And he went to Google and all of us on the Excel team were just sitting chuckling like, "Eat it up. Yeah, you should take him."
Thomas LaRock (32:11):
Well, that explains a lot about Google Sheets. Okay. So here's the thing, when you were just describing to me about the curly data and you're talking about the analytics and you got to the point that was in the back of my mind as you were speaking, which is that you say row, I'll say it's... What's the fancy word? Observation. That row, the observation of a data event, you may not have information for all those columns or attributes.
Thomas LaRock (32:43):
And that's totally normal to me right now. I'm like, yeah, I get it. One of the things I say is nobody goes to school to become a data janitor. Hmm. I didn't. There was no course. And I think your response to that was here we are. This is what we do. We are the data janitors of the world, whether you're Excel or you're a DBA, this was the common ground we had.
Thomas LaRock (33:12):
I didn't know it 10 years ago. It took me a while to get up to it. But why are we miserable? Because we're data janitors all day. This is what we do. And why don't we have the observations for all this? Are you kidding me? I don't know. A sensor went down. Oh, okay. Or we just didn't think to ask that question. And so it's not included in 10,000 survey results. We didn't think that question was worthwhile. It's like, but there was data, and I had this whole model built and it needed that.
Thomas LaRock (33:42):
Now what am I supposed to do with these 10,000, 20,000 records? It can be very frustrating. I can see what the man was trying to describe, but he really wasn't able to articulate what he thought was coming. And more importantly, he didn't really understand the tool. He thought the tool had to change, but the reality is the tool itself didn't have to change.
Thomas LaRock (34:12):
It was the application of the tool was going to become different. And he couldn't see that even at the time. I mean, Python was a thing. You could have done so much more. There's a bigger world out there than just the Microsoft data platform, as great as it is. And I love it.
Rob Collie (34:30):
Come on, come on.
Thomas LaRock (34:30):
It's true. But there's still stuff out there, stuff out there. But yeah, that was kind of my thought was this guy was not a data janitor and he wanted the tool to do this specific thing. So you guys were going to have to go and reinvent it, which would've been a huge waste of time. Whoever was really in charge there for you guys, thank God they knew not to try to shift gears.
Rob Collie (34:55):
Yeah. I completely agree. The thing that he was missing, and it's not like I knew it then either, if I'd known it, I would've told him this storage revolution that they saw coming is decoupled from analysis. Again, up until this point, you never know what's around the corner. But up until this point, analysis has insulated. It's kind of like I just need to know...
Rob Collie (35:25):
Another way to say it is that I don't actually know truly deep down how a SQL database is structured. I don't need to. I think of the table that I pull from it, which is oftentimes a view written by a friendly person, such as yourself. That view is reconstituting my rectangle of data that I need from all kinds of other tables that I don't necessarily see.
Rob Collie (35:53):
I don't care. It's beautiful. I don't need to. And so if the view, the rectangle that I'm getting happens to be stored out there on many different hard drives and in a hive farm or something and in curly format, but I get a rectangle back, my job doesn't really change. Take the analysis hat off for a moment. What are your observations of this?
Rob Collie (36:22):
When I call it like a revolution in storage, is it really? How much has the curly storage model, Data Lakes, Hadoop, all that kind of stuff. How much is that... I don't know. I was going to use the word invaded to sound dramatic. How much has that stuff kind of invaded your world?
Thomas LaRock (36:43):
Well, in terms of say the Microsoft data platform, it was years ago when they introduced the concept of PolyBase. So PolyBase is just a simpler way for you to link to almost any other data structure and to pull the data into SQL server. And they're trying to make it very easy to connect basically from their data platform and extend into any other platform in order to get the data into one place and then build your rectangle for you.
Thomas LaRock (37:17):
So it's there and it can comes up every now and then and somebody says I've built this. It's not working as well or things of that nature. So it's definitely part of the ecosystem these days. And the latest one, what is it called? Big data clusters that Microsoft just rolled out. They're making efforts to build into their ecosystem something that is equivalent in other ecosystems.
Thomas LaRock (37:46):
So if you are a Microsoft customer and you need certain functionality inside that data platform, it actually exists somewhere. It's a framework, it's a tinker set. All the pieces are there. You might have to build something more or less than other things. But a lot of that functionality is really there, especially in Azure. There's just so much these days.
Rob Collie (38:09):
Azure. This is not SQL server. Now, there is SQL Azure.
Thomas LaRock (38:19):
No. There's Azure SQL database. Microsoft marketing would not want to hear you say SQL Azure.
Rob Collie (38:24):
Well, if they're listening, I'll call it a win. If we reach the point where we can upset people with the way we describe things by using the... I'll start calling Power Pivot, I'll start calling it Power BI in Excel. It's just really the only rational name for it.
Thomas LaRock (38:44):
It used to be called SQL Azure and I love that name.
Rob Collie (38:49):
Look how dated I am. It makes sense why they call it data platform, because there's just so many things in there now. And so many of them, as you were hinting at, are clones in a way, improved clones in many cases of things that we see on the Linux platform. If you go look at AWS, so much of AWS, the services available there, it's what I call the Linux cool kids stack.
Rob Collie (39:21):
If you're launching a startup in Silicon Valley, you're issued your MacBook and here's your AWS subscription. These are like the starter kit. Microsoft licensed, what is it HDInsight? That's basically like a Linux distribution. And so there's a lot of literal Linux services available on Azure.
Rob Collie (39:46):
And at the same time, you also see these more windows based services in the Azure platform and you start almost like lining them up. You start saying, "Oh, this one's kind of like that one from over in the Linux stack," but it's Microsoft taking a look at it going, "Oh, we can do better."
Rob Collie (40:02):
And so it's a really interesting ecosystem going on over there. Let me put you on the spot here. Have you done any technical hands-on work with, I wonder what we call it, modern storage, the curly storage, or have you've been in sort of the chief geek role long enough that you haven't gotten your hands dirty with that?
Thomas LaRock (40:23):
So it's head geek.
Rob Collie (40:24):
Head geek. I'm so sorry.
Thomas LaRock (40:27):
I do joke that I haven't had a real job in a long time. I'm very far removed from my production DBA days. However, in my role as head geek, I get my hands on the things, but not for production purposes. It's more for I've got to learn to understand what these things are doing, how certain things work, because I need to be able to explain some stuff to others.
Thomas LaRock (40:49):
But what I have done, and it's been a few years, Microsoft partnered with edX and they put together some certification programs. So you would take like 10 classes online through edX and they would align with a certification. I got a certification in, let me think now, well, one was in big data, one was in machine learning, I think, and another one in artificial intelligence. So have I put my hands on the curly data? I'd say yes.
Thomas LaRock (41:24):
But those being Microsoft focused programs, it was touching a lot of areas of Azure. So did I have to go into Azure data factory, consume some data, transform it, write some use SQL to pull some insights out of it? Yeah, I had to do all those things. It's been a while. If I had to do it again, I could probably go back and figure it all out again.
Thomas LaRock (41:47):
But once I did it for the program, there was really no need for me to touch it again. Lately what I have been doing is I've been spending a lot of time learning Python. Sometimes people say, "What should I learn, Python or R?" And I kind of view it as two different things. I think R is very much focused on being a tool for data scientists. And I think if you're a data scientists, you want to use it. That's great.
Thomas LaRock (42:12):
I think Python is a little more extendable. It can do all the same data science things that R can do, but it can also do some other things. So that's why I chose to dive into Python and I've been spending a lot of time on it. And then there's this little website called Kaggle. Have you ever heard of Kaggle?
Rob Collie (42:27):
I have.
Thomas LaRock (42:28):
Yes. So I've started doing some learning and competitions in Kaggle. And again, focused on using Python, but I can also go use other things. If I need to drag some data into Excel to be a data janitor for a little bit, then, yeah, I can do that. So there's a bit of an ecosystem than a say a toolkit that I built up for myself now. And that's where I've kind of been spending some time and getting my hands on that curly data.
Rob Collie (42:58):
I'm all kinds of angry now.
Thomas LaRock (42:59):
Why is that?
Rob Collie (43:00):
I've got a couple of things to straighten out. First of all, in the answer to the question of, should I learn R or should I learn Python? The answer to that question is nine times out of 10, DAX.
Thomas LaRock (43:14):
All right. You're wrong, but that's okay.
Rob Collie (43:19):
Come on. There's a lot of trendiness in it. Now, there's still a tremendous usage of it. I'm not saying that learning Python is a bad thing. I think it's actually a really good thing. It's so often people's actual needs are better served by something that might not have that same kind of cool kids edginess to it.
Thomas LaRock (43:39):
Yeah. I wouldn't want to do a lot of... A lot of times I see Python being used as all these examples. Some of the ways they're manipulating data, to me, I'm not sure I would really want to do it that way. I would want to use a different type of tool like Excel or Power BI or something, because I'm a little more comfortable with that than what these lines of code are doing.
Thomas LaRock (44:01):
But if I want to build a model in machine learning, I could use Azure ML Studio. But under the hood, it's kind of just running the same code I could just do for myself. So I don't know. It's either/or, but I just feel that at the end of the day, Python just has a little bit more.
Rob Collie (44:18):
Yeah. I mean, it's just so often a lot of Python will be written to draw a chart.
Thomas LaRock (44:26):
Yeah, exactly. Oh no, you're right.
Rob Collie (44:29):
Or to do a very fundamental aggregation that would've been so much more powerful and flexible if you built a DAX data model around it. I even go to developer conferences on occasion now and the whole goal is to say, "Hey, look, you know so many things that I don't know, you're so much more technical than I, and yet I'm going to do some things up here on stage that you can't do, really important everyday things that you can't do and I want you to be upset about it."
Rob Collie (45:06):
Because I'm really just not that technical. I'm the least technical person at the company. Everyone we hire is so much better even at the things that I am good at. They're so much better at those than I am. A lot of things we're talking about like in the Azure platform, for instance, we have people who are very good at those things. I've never seen them. I haven't gotten the certification that I could even forget, like what you were talking about.
Rob Collie (45:34):
And then you said, "If I need to drag some data into Excel and be a data janitor." Come on now. Modern Excel that has the DAX engine and the power query engine in it. We've escaped that. We've escaped the janitor hood as long as we work in an organization that understands what we can do, which, again, that human factor. Most companies are very, very, very slow to wake up to the fact that their resident Excel guru has now become a completely new species.
Rob Collie (46:03):
The person who discovers what I call modern Excel, which is really the Power BI engines, the under-the-hood engines baked into Excel, when they discover that or they discover Power BI itself, they feel like they're the first person to discover fire. They sit back at their desk and go, "Oh my God." And they say things like the equivalent of, "Did you see that?" And everyone looks at them like, "No, we didn't see anything. In fact, maybe you should get back to work." It's a very unsatisfying.
Rob Collie (46:31):
And then some period of time later, those people end up working for us. That's where our employees are made, is in those trenches. I was mostly just joking. You just equated Excel and data janitor hood so glibly that I had to circle back. I had to say something.
Thomas LaRock (46:52):
I think it Excel is the tool of choice for most data janitors. We should make a commercial.
Rob Collie (46:58):
That's true. That's true. We've experimented with some advertising like on Facebook. It's not running at the moment. The ad says, "Are you running a spreadsheet sweatshop?"
Thomas LaRock (47:11):
Yes. I think I've seen that.
Rob Collie (47:13):
Yeah. We have these people sitting in what looks like a bombed out factory, but there's all these spreadsheets on these monitors and everything. The reason I don't like the janitor term is because it sticks to the person more than it sticks to the org. That's why the spreadsheet sweat shop, I prefer that nomenclature. That's not the preferred nomenclature, dude.
Thomas LaRock (47:40):
So I totally get how you have that apprehension about using the data janitor term. But I want you to know that in those courses I was doing, to earn that certification, one, or actually more than one, was taught by a friend of yours, Wayne Winston.
Rob Collie (47:56):
Oh, The Wayne.
Thomas LaRock (47:57):
And Wayne opened my eyes to how to use Excel in so many wonderful ways with descriptive statistics. And that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. I'm talking about, hey, I have these columns. How many are missing values? How many are no? Stuff of that nature that a lot of people would use Python for, but for me, I might just use Excel for that from time to time.
Rob Collie (48:19):
Yeah. Good old rectangles.
Thomas LaRock (48:21):
Wayne was so good. Such great courses.
Rob Collie (48:24):
Was it live?
Thomas LaRock (48:26):
No, it wasn't live. It was recorded.
Rob Collie (48:30):
I tell you, a live course with Wayne would be another experience all together. He is such a character. I bet they had to edit him down to 20% of what... He used to visit Microsoft and believe it or not, teach classes to Microsoft's finance departments.
Thomas LaRock (48:54):
I believe that.
Rob Collie (48:55):
But then he'd come hang out with the Excel team in the evening and just like hold court. Oh man. It was like drinking from a fire hose. It was awesome. He lives near me. I mean, I'm in central Indiana now. I'm in Indianapolis and he's in Bloomington. I've been here for five years and we still haven't gotten together. That's on me. I'm probably not going to see him...
Thomas LaRock (49:19):
Can't get together now either.
Rob Collie (49:20):
Can't get together now either. Yeah.
Thomas LaRock (49:23):
So it's not all on you, like the last three months.
Rob Collie (49:25):
Oh yeah. I mean, I've got a good three or four month excuse now. I mean, I did reach out. We were going to get together, but then you know following up, that's the trick, isn't it? I think that's probably a pretty good place to wrap episode one. What do you think?
Thomas LaRock (49:38):
I think so. I think we battled long enough about nothing. Raw Data is really a podcast about nothing.
Rob Collie (49:44):
Is that what we're going to do? It's a podcast without substance. I look forward to doing more of these. We have not come close to talking about everything. We've got lots of ground to cover.
Announcer (49:59):
Thanks for listening to the Raw Data by P3 podcast. Find out what the experts at P3 can do for your business. Go to powerpivotpro.com. Interested in becoming a guest on the show? Email lukep@powerpivotpro.com. Have a data day!