Point of Learning: Recent Episodes
Peter Horn
A special re-release of the 2019 episode “Love’s Labour’s Lit” dedicated to Saul Elkin (1932-2025)
Peter talks with Drew Warshaw about his campaign for NYS Comptroller, the most powerful office too many of us know nothing about.
Peter talks with Marion Orr, the Frederick Lippitt Professor of Public Policy at Brown University, about his book House of Diggs: The Rise and Fall of America’s Most Consequential Black Congressman, Charles C. Diggs Jr.
Peter talks with a friend in Minneapolis about living in his beloved city during a period of state-sponsored terror and what can be learned about pulling the U.S. back from the brink.
Peter talks with Lara Schwartz, Founding Director of the Project on Civic Dialogue (PCD) in the School of Public Affairs at American University, as well as three PCD facilitators: Grace Manson, Arjun Mishra, and Khushi Ramnani.
Peter talks with Justin McDaniel about two of the very unusual courses he teaches at Penn.
Peter talks with Jonathan Rauch about two of his books, The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy.
Peter talks with Ilana Redstone about her book The Certainty Trap: Why We Need to Question Ourselves More—and How We Can Judge Others Less.
Robin Bernstein is the Dillon Professor of American History and Professor of African and African American Studies and Studies of Women, Gender, and Sexuality at Harvard University. In this episode we discuss her latest book, Freeman's Challenge: The Murder That Shook America's Original Prison for Profit. Published by the University of Chicago Press in May 2024, it led Dr. Bernstein to—among other places—a packed fellowship hall at North Presbyterian Church in Williamsville, New York, where I got to hear her give a talk about it in July. I bought a copy of the book 5 minutes later, immediately certain that this story would captivate the Point of Learning audience just as it had me. It’s a compelling example of a mantra I used with my students: if you pursue any single area of interest far enough, you’ll see that it’s connected to everything else. In this case, “Through one Black man, his family, and his city, Robin Bernstein tells an explosive, moving story about the entangled origins of prison for profit and anti-Black racism” (from the book jacket).
READ THE TRANSCRIPT ORDER THE BOOK SHOW NOTESABOUT THE AUTHOR. To learn more about Robin Bernstein’s work, visit her website.
Mentioned at the end of our conversation, 13th Forward is the legislative coalition of advocates, grassroots organizations, and impacted people working to end exploitation and brutality within our prison labor system. It draws its name from the 13th Amendment, which outlawed chattel slavery with one exception: “as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.” Learn more about their work here.
MUSIC. In addition to standard intro (“Weight of the World”) and outro (“Villainous Thing”) music from Shayfer James’ 2011 album Counterfeit Arcade, additional underscore from this episode includes instrumental versions of “700 Days” and “Troublemaker” from Shipwreck (2023). To find the latest tour and new release information for Shayfer James, visit his website.
SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. To make an episode that sounds like this takes me and my staff of 0 people about 40 hours. Be like Raj Bhandari in today’s patron break and consider a recurring donation, which helps with everything from recording equipment batteries to buying my copy of Freeman’s Challenge: The Murder That Shook America’s Original Prison for Profit. There are two easy ways to donate!
Learn more PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Krista Haley, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
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I’ve wanted to record an episode with Dr. John Webb for a long time, because there’s almost no one with whom I’ve had so many conversations about what matters in education. An educator possessed of a deeply humane approach to kids, John strives to know each student as an individual—and has taught several generations of teachers to do the same. He began his career as a teacher of French in Spring Valley, New York, a suburban community in Rockland County, about an hour north of New York City. He began teaching teachers during his years at Hunter College High School in Manhattan, where he also served as Chair of World Languages. He led Princeton’s Program in Teacher Preparation for 10 years, during which time he co-founded the Princeton University Preparatory Program, or PUPP, a summer institute for bright high school students from families with low income. Now John has written a book called Molyvos: A Greek Village’s Heroic Response to the Global Refugee Crisis, which personalizes and individualizes a humanitarian crisis that is usually too enormous to comprehend. (Photo: Nelson Mondaca)
READ THE TRANSCRIPT SHOW NOTES ORDER THE BOOK SHOW NOTESMUSIC. To find the latest tour and new release information about Shayfer James, visit his website. Underscore and filigree soundtrack on this episode courtesy of artists who share their work via Pixabay: Nver Avetyan, Elen Lackner, Alexander Lisenkove, and Andrews Rodriguez.
REAGAN SPEECH from 1980. If you’re interested in reading, hearing, or watching the full remarks from then-Governor Reagan, they’re available here, courtesy of American Rhetoric online speech bank.
SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. Be like Vana Zervanos in today’s episode and consider a one-time gift, which helps with everything from recording equipment batteries to gas money for road trips to Cooperstown. There are two easy ways to donate!
Learn more PoL Sponsors: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni and Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Krista Haley, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, The Idari Collective, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Maureen and Alan Lantis, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Robyn Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Robert Rossiter, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Dale Schmid, Brendan Sullivan, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
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To mark the 50th episode milestone, I’ve teamed up with Greg Jackson of Action J Productions to discuss our new video project called Point of Learning Master Class (not to be confused with the very well funded instructional video series whose registered trademark does not include a space between “Master” and “Class”). Like the late, great journalist Bill Greider, we believe the essential unit of democracy is not the voting booth, but the conversation, so we have chosen civil discourse as our first topic. If you agree with us that it’s never been more urgent to get better at having hard conversations across divides, please share this episode or the video below with your friends, family, and especially the high school teachers in your life!
READ THE TRANSCRIPT NEW CIVIL DISCOURSE VIDEO! The citations for sources mentioned in podcast audio (and provided in captions on the video): Jill Harrison Berg, Christine Connolly, Abda Lee, and Emmanuel Fairly. “A Matter of Trust: How a Boston Turnaround School Built Its Plan for Improvement Around Relational Trust,” Educational Leadership, March 2018; They Say/I Say. Gerald Graff and Kathy Birkenstein. They Say/I Say (Norton, 2009), pp. 133-135.
WATCH "RESPECTFUL CONVERSATIONS” (14 min.) RELATED EPISODESClick on image to visit the show page of related episode.
LEADING IN SYNC with Jill Harrison Berg (Episode 16)
NO BAD FOOD with Britt Schuman-Humbert (Episode 33)
BABY, UNPLUGGED with Sophie Brickman (Episode 38)
US+THEM with Jonathan Haidt (Episode 27)
TALKING TV with Kevin Johnson (Episode 1) SOUNDTRACK NOTES Gil Scott Chapman originally developed his tracks inspired by Mose Allison for “Leading with Mind and Heart with Errick Greene” (Episode 28).
Molly Colvin originally mixed the tracks underscoring segments featuring Lily Flast and Keith Zemsky for the episode “Crystallizing Coronavirus with Sarah Bowman” (Episode 31).
SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. As Keith Zemsky drives home in today’s episode, gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from recording equipment batteries to renewing newsletter subscriptions. There are two easy ways to donate—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
Learn more Current donors include: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni & Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, Robyn Lee Horn, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, John Opera, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
get in touchI’m currently transitioning platforms for the newsletter, but if you have thoughts, questions, suggestions, or want more information about anything related to the Point of Learning podcast or the new Point of Learning Master Class video series, please drop me a line!
EMAIL POINT OF LEARNING
If you’ve listened to this podcast for any amount of time, you’re already familiar with the music of Shayfer James. Shayfer’s songs “Weight of the World” and “Villainous Thing” have opened and closed nearly every episode since I started this podcast passion project in 2017.
As an artist, Shayfer James has made a name for himself in the world of what is generally classified by Apple Music as indie rock, although some music critics apply the description “pop-noir” as they reckon with the darkness in some of his lyrics. His music is wide-ranging in style and color, so it’s hard to pigeonhole, but I agree with the reviewers who describe it as “captivating,” sometimes “swaggering,” and “moving,” “with a hint of mystery and surprise.” (Photo: Errol Colandro)
READ THE TRANSCRIPT WHERE TO FIND SHAYFER JAMESHere’s where to find all the information about his music, lyrics, videos, merchandise, and more! If you’re interested in the Spring 2024 tour, he’s got a tab for that too!
SHAYFER JAMES WEBSITE SELECT COLLABORATIONS WITH SHAYFER JAMES
CLICK HERE FOR SJ COLLAB YOUTUBE PLAYLIST 🎵 CLICK HERE FOR SJ COLLAB YOUTUBE PLAYLIST 🎵 CLICK HERE FOR SJ COLLAB YOUTUBE PLAYLIST 🎵 RELATED EPISODES WHAT IS PROJECT ‘79? THIS IS RADIO, DAMMIT! WITH BILL SIEMERING "OF SURPASSING WORTH” —MARCUS FOSTER (1923-1973) SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. Gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from recording equipment batteries to renewing newsletter subscriptions. There are two easy ways to donate—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
Learn more Current donors include: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni & Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, Robyn Lee Horn, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Jacob Marley, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, John Opera, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
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On March 5th 2024, Peggy McIntosh was inducted into the National Women’s Hall of Fame! In observation of Women’s History Month and celebration of this momentous achievement, I’m re-dropping our conversation from five years ago—which remains all too relevant as we continue to wage media wars over cultural issues (such as White Privilege) and devastating traditional wars over territory and religion.
VISIT 2019 SHOW PAGE MEET THE WOMEN OF THE HALL2024 National Women’s Hall of Fame inductees. Peggy’s class also includes Patricia Bath, Ruby Bridges, Elouise Cobell, Kimberlé Crenshaw, Judith Plaskow, Loretta Ross, Sandy Stone, Anna Wessels Williams, and Serena Williams. Click the button for thumbnail biographies.
2024 NATIONAL WOMEN'S HALL OF FAME INDUCTEES National Women’s Hall of Fame. Established in 1969, the National Women’s Hall of Fame (Seneca Falls, NY) now includes Peggy and 311 other U.S. trailblazers such as Bella Abzug, Abigail Addams, Madeline Albright, Louisa May Alcott, Marian Anderson, Maya Angelou, and Susan B. Anthony, to select just a few of the luminaries whose last names begin with A!
MEET THE WOMEN OF THE NATIONAL HALL OF FAME ON PRIVILEGE, FRAUDULENCE, AND TEACHING AS LEARNING: SELECTED ESSAYS 1981-2019 Published by Routledge in 2019. If you want to copy and paste the discount code, here it is: FLR40.
USE DISCOUNT CODE FLR40 TO GET 20% OFF SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn. Gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from recording equipment batteries to renewing newsletter subscriptions. There are **two easy ways to donate**—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
Learn more Current donors include: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni & Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, Robyn Lee Horn, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, John Opera, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
NEWSLETTERDon’t miss an episode! Let me have your email address, and I’ll let you know after a new episode drops. 100% free, and takes only 24 seconds to fill out the form.
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One hundred and eighty years ago, on 19 December 1843, the first edition of Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol was published. To celebrate, I’m releasing a special version of the story. Produced in 2001, this is the shortest edition of the story that I ever recorded (see below for the longer and medium-length editions). It’s also very meaningful to me, because it’s a collaboration with William R. Mathews, who back in 1998 invited me to begin performing dramatic readings in Westfield, New Jersey, where we were both teaching high school. I loved the opportunity to make music with current and former students, singing with members of the Westfield Chorale. There’s less than 20 minutes of storytelling in this episode—just a few lines of each of the “staves” of Dickens’ “carol”—but there’s lots of great music! (Photo of Bill Mathews and me by Gretchen Meister Brand. At some point we discovered we owned the same tie, and made a point of wearing it for one at least one of the Chorale performances each December.)
Mr. Mathews in rehearsal with the Chorale at First Baptist Church (Westfield, NJ).
CHOOSE YOUR SCROOGEFull length. This 75-minute program was recorded live on 16 December 2017, the 20th annual dramatic reading at First Baptist Church in Westfield, New Jersey. The episode features Michael Rosin on organ, including his original remix of Shayfer James’ “Weight of the World” as intro and outro. The Westfield High School Concert Choir was prepared by its directors, John Brzozowski and Maureen Francis.
A CHRISTMAS CAROL LIVE AT FBC (2017) Medium length. A Graycliff Christmas Carol is shorter and stranger to behold than a standard live performance. It only takes 39 minutes to listen to or watch the spectacular Frank Lloyd Wright-set 2020 version produced as a benefit for the Graycliff Estate on the edge of Lake Erie. Although the total production is shorter than today’s episode, the narration is fuller, with comparatively less music. Carols are performed by singers from the Vocalis Chamber Choir. The (highly recommended) video features photography by Full Circle Studios and visual design by John Opera.
“I give you Mr. Scrooge!” Christmas Present (including Bob Cratchit’s toast) is set in the kitchen at Graycliff. The video showcases five other locations in the Frank Lloyd Wright-designed home. (Production photo by John Opera)
A GRAYCLIFF CHRISTMAS CAROL (2020) SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another. Sometimes they sing with me, take photos, offer suggestions, roll tape, or play a pipe organ like it’s the lungs of the place. Some are able to contribute financially, which sustains this passion project to share great ideas about what and how and why we learn—including from literature and music. Gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from recording equipment batteries to Graycliff gas money. There are **two easy ways to donate**—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
Learn more Current donors include: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni & Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, Robyn Lee Horn, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, John Opera, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
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The heart of this special episode is the Back-to-School Address to Oakland, California faculty and staff by Superintendent Dr. Marcus A. Foster, given in the fall of 1973. You will hear a singular voice in U.S. education urging teachers, administrators, and support staff to keep students at the center of their work—while also honoring the complexity of the challenge. Foster’s words are poignant not only because they still ring true today, but because they were offered just weeks before he was assassinated: this is one of the last public speeches by a visionary educator who worked his way up from teaching science in a four-room, wood-frame school through the ranks of building and district leadership. I have access to this rare recording as a gift from the estate of my late aunt, Dr. Gail Roth Meister, who worked for the Oakland district at the start of her five-decade career in education, and with kind permission from the family of Dr. Foster to share it with a wider audience.
For the last segment of the episode, I am joined by Dr. John P. Spencer, author of the definitive biography In the Crossfire: Marcus Foster and the Troubled History of American School Reform (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2012) to reflect on key themes from the speech and discuss Foster’s important place in the history of U.S. education. (Photo: Marcus Foster Education Institute)
Dr. Foster reinforcing the theme of PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE in an elementary school classroom. He may have had a loving word with the boy standing on the left after the picture was taken. (Photo: Marcus Foster Education Institute)
TRANSCRIPTSIn addition to the standard transcript of the full episode, a PDF of Foster’s speech alone is available for download. (I’d base some professional development conversations on it if I were running a school these days!)
READ THE EPISODE TRANSCRIPT DOWNLOAD SPEECH ONLY (PDF) Dr. Foster in front of Martin Luther King Jr. Elementary in Oakland, California during the school’s construction in 1970. (Photo: The Oakland Tribune Collection, Oakland Museum of California)
IN MEMORIAMThis episode celebrates the legacy of Marcus Foster, but I also wish to dedicate it to my aunt Gail Roth Meister, who taught me so much. Within the first minute of his address, Dr. Foster refers to the “outstanding summer program” that the district was able to mount with the assistance of SB 90, the California State Senate Bill that provided funding. Among those contributing to that summer program was my aunt Gail, consulting with the Oakland schools at the start of her career. Fortunately for all of us, a copy of the audio of Dr. Foster’s 1973 speech stayed with her through the five decades of education consulting she was just beginning. A few years after her work in Oakland, Aunt Gail earned her Ph.D. in Educational Policy Analysis from Stanford. In 1986 she moved to New Jersey with my uncle, the Rev. J. W. Gregg Meister, and my cousin Miriam. As a consultant skilled in coaching, facilitation, qualitative research, program design, and evaluation, she often worked with schools in the Philadelphia area, where Dr. Foster had spent most of his career. Like Dr. Foster, she was a brilliant educator who is deeply missed.
Dr. Gail Roth Meister, 1947-2022. (Photo: J. W. Gregg Meister)
EPISODE NOTESToday’s episode includes a post-speech segment with historian John P. Spencer, author of In the Crossfire: Marcus Foster and the Troubled History of American School Reform (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2012). Chair of the Education Department at Ursinus College, Dr. Spencer specializes in the history of education, school reform, urban education, and the scholarship of teaching and learning.
Dr. John P. Spencer (Photo: Ursinus College)
Thanks to Professor Spencer, I learned that one of Marcus Foster’s favorite songs in his youth was the Billy Strayhorn composition “Take the A-Train.” This fact was not published in his book, but he kindly consulted his notes from the many oral history interviews he conducted as part of his research on Foster’s life when I asked him about possible directions for underscore and transition music in the episode. My brother John Horn (co-star of the My Brothers, Teachers episode from 2017) was generous enough to record a half-dozen takes of the jazz standard on his keyboard despite a very busy work week. Here he is whaling on another of his axes:
John Horn (Image: Glenn Murray)
BIOGRAPHICAL SKETCH CORRECTION (courtesy of Dr. Marsha Foster): There were two prominent AME ministers named William Decker Johnson who made important contributions in the late 19th and early 20th century. Because they shared the same name, they are sometimes confused. Although the other William Decker Johnson (1869-1936) did serve as the 42nd Bishop of the AME Church, Alice Johnson Foster's father—Marcus Foster's grandfather—William Decker Johnson was born free in Maryland in 1842. A graduate of Lincoln University who earned his A.B. in 1868, his A.M. in 1871 and his D.D. in 1880, he held appointments in Washington, D.C., Florida, and Georgia, serving as a Methodist minister for more than 33 years. From 1884 to 1896, Dr. Johnson served as Commissioner and Education Secretary for the AME Church. In 1904 he became president of Allen University in Columbia, South Carolina, serving until 1908. He and his family returned to Athens, Georgia, where he died in 1909.
I refer at the very end of the episode to Dr. Foster’s influence on the alternative education program called Project ‘79, where I spent many of my best moments as a teacher and administrator. The 2018 episode about Project ‘79 is available here.
SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another, through conversations, emailed suggestions, books, articles, music, and more. Some are able to contribute financially, which helps me get that Metro pass for the A train, when a given episode demands it. Gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from transcription assistance to purchasing copies of research materials like In the Crossfire: Marcus Foster and the Troubled History of American School Reform by John P. Spencer, deployed in today’s episode. There are two easy ways to donate—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
LEARN ABOUT SUPPORTING POL Current supporters include: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni & Robbie Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, Robyn Lee Horn, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, John Opera, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
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Capt. John Havlik knows a thing or two about stress. He retired in 2014 after more than 30 years of distinguished military service, nearly all of them as a Navy SEAL. He graduated from West Virginia University as the first swimmer in school history to qualify for the U.S. Olympic Swimming Trials. He served as tri-captain of the first undefeated men’s swim team in WVU history his senior year.
Just this spring, he defended his doctoral dissertation at the University of Pennsylvania, a study comparing stress-management strategies of U.S. National Team swimmers and Navy SEALs. Today’s conversation focuses on four key commonalities:
- Absolute trust in their training
- Adherence to a strict routine
- Focusing only on what they could control
- Utilizing healthy and adaptive distractions
READ THE TRANSCRIPT Havlik earned his doctorate in education from the Penn CLO (Chief Learning Officer) Program in 2023.
EPISODE NOTESLearn more about Coach Havlik’s life and work here.
Today’s episode features two special instrumental versions of Shayfer James songs, “Battle Cry” from Counterfeit Arcade (2011) and “Devil Throw Roses” from Haunted Things (2015). To see what Shayfer is up to lately, find him on Spotify or here.
SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another, through conversations, emailed suggestions, books, articles, music, and more. Some are able to contribute financially, which is the bee’s knees, as far as I’m concerned. Gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from transcription assistance to upgrades of audio software, such as the new Izotope plug-ins deployed in today’s episode. There are two easy ways to donate—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
LEARN ABOUT SUPPORTING PoL Current supporters include: Aaron Bartley, Gilberto Belaval, Mary Rappl Bellanti, Raj Bhandari, Melinda Bihn, Gretchen & David Brand, Jenni Brand, Jake Brown, Heather Carson-Wake, Patty Cruice, Ryan Daly, David Davis, James Duggan, Dave Eisenberg, Phillip Ellis, Anna Falicov, Errick L. Greene, Jonathan Hiam, Gregory Horn, Janice & John & Ava & Brooke Horn, Robyn Lee Horn, Greg Jackson, Kevin Johnson, Zack Kramer, Tim Lear, Janet & Robert Lee, Kristen Lee, Tom Loughlin, Susan Lytle, Carol MacVey, Linda B. Matt, Ellen McLaughlin, J. W. Gregg Meister, Miriam Meister, Sarah & Peter Meister, Dwight Nolt, Julia Olff, John Opera, Monica & Rowland Richards, Gail & Frank Richeson, Friends of Diana Rochford, Stacy Rodgers, Elizabeth & Terry Rowlands, Paula A. Roy, Emily Style, Marue Walizer, John B. Webb, Keith Zemsky, Vana Zervanos
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My remarks from the Winter Institute of the New York State Council of School Superintendents in March 2023.
Rinde Eckert is celebrated writer, composer, librettist, musician, performer and director, but I'm not sure even this list of roles captures his extraordinary versatility. Just within the past year, for example, Rinde danced with a San Francisco company, played a benefit with a jazz ensemble in New York, composed the score for a new play, wrote a new song for an old Shakespeare play, sang lead in the premiere of a technically grueling yet gorgeous opera about Robert Moses and Jane Jacobs, played an Irish warden in Ellen McLaughlin’s update of Antigone called Kissing the Floor, and taught interdisciplinary art, as he has done at Princeton University, the University of California, the University of Iowa, and numerous other schools across the U.S.
Rinde has won a Grammy, was a finalist for a Pulitzer, is a Guggenheim fellow, and has been my friend for more than 20 years. In this conversation, we focus on his recent project of rebuilding his piano technique from the ground up. For the “Dancing Badly” title to make sense, you need to give us a listen!
READ THE TRANSCRIPT Photo: Eva Mueller
Learn more about Rinde Eckert and his storied decades at the intersection of theatre and music here.
SPECIAL THANKSMany people support this podcast in one way or another, through conversations, emailed suggestions, books, articles, music, and more. Some are able to contribute financially, which is the oyster’s ice skates, as far as I’m concerned. Gifts of even a few dollars from folks like you help with everything from transcription assistance to gas for trips to Nyack, New York. There are two easy ways to donate—a one-time gift of any amount, or a monthly continuing contribution.
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For nearly 60 years Jonathan Kozol has been one of the most widely read and highly honored education writers in the nation. Ready for a sneak preview of his next book?
January 25, 2023 marks the 25th anniversary of my father's death, and by a strange and—I've always thought—beautiful coincidence, the 25th anniversary of his final sermon. On the last Sunday in January, 1998, the Rev. Gilbert J. Horn, Co-Pastor of the Montview Boulevard Presbyterian Church in Denver read the gospel lesson and then preached it for two church services and taught a Sunday school class before succumbing to esophageal cancer at home that afternoon. He was 57.
It happened to be Super Bowl Sunday, and the Denver Broncos would be facing the Green Bay Packers in San Diego in a few hours. From the standpoint of a preacher in Denver trying to get Denver congregants in the pews, this was a challenge. What was my dad's marketing solution? Exploiting the familiar trope of the football player who tells the sports reporter that Jesus is his quarterback, Dad titled his sermon "Jesus' Playbook."
I’m pleased to be able to share in this special episode my dad’s last—and perhaps most important—sermon. [Image: All Saints’ Celebration at Montview, November 1995]
At a Justice for Janitors rally on May Day 1989. Dad was a card-carrying member of the Service Employees International Union. [Image: Denver Post/Getty]
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT In Memoriam 1982 file photo from *Buffalo News.*
DENVER POST and ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS *Buffalo News*, February 1998.
Created in 2020 as a benefit for the Graycliff Conservancy, this very condensed performance of Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol was filmed in various locations on the spectacular Graycliff Estate designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Music by singers from the Vocalis Chamber Choir. Video features photography by Full Circle Studios and visual design by John Opera. (Photo: John Opera)
ORIGINAL SHOW PAGE WITH LINK TO VIDEO OPTION B = LIVE PERFORMANCE IN WESTFIELD (2017) With John Brzozowski (choral director), Michael Rosin (organist), and Justin Rosin (pianist) at the 2016 performance of the fuller 75-minute version I did in Westfield, New Jersey for 20 years. Click the button below to get to the live version with music by these gentlemen and the Westfield High School Concert Choir, co-directed in 2017 by Maureen Francis.
ORIGINAL SHOW PAGE FOR 2017 PERFORMANCE
A departure from the usual Point of Learning format, this episode is basically the audio version of one segment from a new video series for high school English teachers that I’m putting together with Greg Jackson. Here’s 22 minutes about how to approach the college essay—for writers and their teachers.
As a playwright, Ellen McLaughlin has breathed new life into ancient Greek texts. Today we focus on her versions of classic plays by Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides, exploring the questions they once raised for ancient audiences, and still raise for contemporary audiences. For instance, the major tragedians were all war veterans, writing for audiences composed predominantly of war veterans, a dynamic that has not existed in Western theatre for 2500 years. What do ancient Greeks have to teach us about the costs of war, and what we owe to veterans?
In this classic episode (recorded 11 August 2020 and released 2 September 2020), I talk with Dr. Errick L. Greene, Superintendent of Jackson [MS] Public Schools about contending with a public health crisis, systemic racism, and effective organizational leadership: it’s really three episodes in one. Unfortunately, as you are no doubt aware from this week’s news, Jackson is facing a new public health crisis with its chronically unsafe water supply. Things are changing on a daily basis, but as of now it’s unclear when the city’s residents will be able to drink from their taps again.
Sophie Brickman focuses on the intersection of parenting and technology in her book Baby, Unplugged: One Mother’s Search for Balance, Reason, and Sanity in the Digital Age (HarperOne, 2021), which we’ll be discussing on this episode. Brickman is a writer, reporter and editor based in New York City. Her work has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Saveur, The San Francisco Chronicle, and the anthologies Best Food Writing and Best American Science Writing, among other places.
I believe this conversation with Paula Roy from July 2017 is well worth revisiting in this moment where book-banning seems to be edging out baseball as the national pastime here in the Home of the Free, and too many legislators and governors have convinced themselves that they know more about education than professional educators do.
The Very Reverend Ward B. Ewing is former Dean and President of The General Theological Seminary in New York City. Dr. Ewing has met in and with Alcoholics Anonymous groups as a non-alcoholic for more than four decades, also serving as Trustee and Chair of the General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous for the U.S. and Canada. In addition to the book that grows out of that experience, Twelve Steps to Religionless Spirituality: the Power of Spirituality with or without God, which we discuss in this episode, he has also written one volume each on the Book of Job and the Book of Revelation.
A January 2022 survey conducted with over 3600 teachers who belong to the National Education Association found that 90% believe teacher burnout is a serious issue. Fifty-five percent indicated that they are more likely to leave or retire from education sooner than planned because of the pandemic, almost double the number saying the same in July 2020. As I thought about a classic episode of Point of Learning that could be very helpful for teachers, teacher leaders, and building administrators who are looking for professional encouragement, it didn't take long to settle on my conversation with Jill Harrison Berg, recorded in the fall of 2018. Jill's book, Leading in Sync, which we discuss in this episode, is a text I recommend to anyone interested in more collaborative structures that can make schools function better for everyone--students, faculty, and staff. Arguing that leadership is influence, Berg lays out how to build and strengthen systems of collaboration and communication in an organization so that folks are pulling in the same direction--as opposed to working at cross purposes.
Bill Siemering is a radio visionary. Sixty years ago, he was hired to transform WBFO from a student-run college radio club into a professional station. Because of the experiments in radio that he led at WBFO throughout the 1960s, Siemering was invited to serve on the first board of what would become National Public Radio. He was also invited to write the original mission statement of NPR. Siemering went on to help create NPR’s flagship program, All Things Considered and also what we know today as Fresh Air. Fifty years later, Siemering is still passionate about the power of radio, now doing much of his work in the developing world.
Originally podcast in December 2017 as the holiday special for the first season of Point of Learning, this 75-minute version of the Dickens tale was recorded before a live audience at First Baptist Church in Westfield, NJ.
Assistant professor and head of the photography program at the State University of New York at Buffalo, John Opera has exhibited his critically acclaimed photographs for over two decades in dozens of galleries, from New York to LA, from Mexico City to Basel, Switzerland. His work has been featured in numerous reviews, articles, and other publications, from ArtForum to The New Yorker.
Point of Learning presents a special double episode: 1) a philosophy professor who in August 2021 became the unofficial liaison for Afghan students at the American University of Central Asia (AUCA) in Kyrgyzstan amid the chaotic U.S. withdrawal, and 2) an Afghan grad student who earned two degrees at AUCA.
How is a nutritionist better than a diet book? What are signs that your not-yet-10-year-old may be developing an eating disorder? How does drinking the night before affect a morning workout? To answer these and many more questions, I met up with Britt Schuman-Humbert, a clinical dietitian with over 25 years of experience in the field of clinical nutrition.
This bonus episode is a departure from my usual format in several ways. First, I answer more questions than I ask. Second, I’m the guest. Third, I didn’t really make the show—or at least, not the way I usually do! Courtesy of the Pingry Politics Podcast, this show features me doing a brief overview of some key points I consider critical to civil discourse (respectful conversation about topics of shared concern), followed by Q & A with high school students at the Pingry School in NJ.
Dr. Sarah EJ Bowman is Director of the High-Throughput Crystallization Screening Center at the Hauptman-Woodward Institute in Buffalo, New York. Since the outbreak of COVID-19 in the U.S., Sarah’s lab has been studying key components that make up the novel coronavirus. At the Crystallization Center in Buffalo, crucial non-infectious elements of the virus are coaxed into crystals that can help researchers see the otherwise invisible structure of the virus. Knowing what these extremely small viral parts look like helps researchers understand how new or existing existing drugs might be effective in fighting the virus.
A very special version of Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol, set in Frank Lloyd Wright’s magnificent Graycliff Estate (Derby, New York)
JoAnn Falletta is a Grammy Award-winning artist who has been compared to some of the greatest conductors of the 20th century—legends like Arturo Toscanini, Bruno Walter, Leopold Stokowski, and (one of her former teachers at Juilliard) Leonard Bernstein. In this episode we talk about why everyone should study music, how to get more women and people of color on the podium, the advantages of knowing guitar for a conductor, and the BPO's roots in the New Deal ... not to mention stories about Leonard Bernstein and Ruth Bader Ginsburg!
Dr. Errick L. Greene is Superintendent of Jackson (MS) Public Schools. My conversation with him on 11 August 2020 afforded the rich opportunity to produce three episodes in one: a look at some of the complications of starting the school year in the time of COVID-19; select reflections on public leadership in Mississippi at a moment of increasing awareness of systemic racism in the U.S.; and a masterclass in team leadership. Beginning his second quarter-century in education, Dr. Greene held leadership roles in Washington, DC and Tulsa, Oklahoma before becoming JPS Superintendent in 2018. Check out today’s show for the ways a supportive community can bring kids along … plus, collaborative approaches to make any kind of leading better for everyone. As the kids say, it’s everything.
Social psychologist Jonathan Haidt is the Thomas Cooley Professor of Ethical Leadership at New York University’s Stern School of Business. Haidt’s research examines the intuitive foundations of morality, and how morality varies across cultures—including the cultures of progressives, conservatives, and libertarians. His goal is to help people understand each other, live and work near each other, and even learn from each other despite their moral differences. In our conversation in early June 2020, we discuss some of the ideas that have earned him nearly 8 million TED Talk views and a spot in Prospect magazine's 2019 list of Top 50 Thinkers in the world, focusing on concepts from his two New York Times-bestselling books, The Righteous Mind and The Coddling of the American Mind (co-authored with Greg Lukianoff).
Master teacher Michelle Gigante has been guiding people toward energetic openings through a blend of yoga, breathing, and mindfulness techniques for nearly 25 years. The founder and director of Shakti Yoga in Buffalo, Michelle has an extensive background in theatre and dance, which contributes to her ability to execute classes with clarity and precision, improvising sequences that are creative and playful. I have appreciated her classes since becoming a member of the Shakti community when I returned to Buffalo two years ago. Deeply versed in healing modalities from yoga to Reiki to Qigong, Michelle is not generally, however, a fan of communications technologies, so when she decided to start offering centering sessions over Facebook Live and yoga sessions via Zoom, I sensed the opportunity for a wonderful conversation about how and why to learn to care for the self during a global health crisis.
Jonathan Zimmerman is one of the foremost education historians working today. His work examines how education practices and policies have developed over time, and the myths that often cloud our understanding of teaching and learning. We sat down in his office in late February to discuss the teaching of controversial issues in U.S. schools. I believe that learning how to talk about difficult topics where reasonable people may disagree is one of the most important skills for citizens to develop. As the headlines on any given day will confirm, it’s also one of the things Americans are terrible at. His 2017 book The Case for Contention (co-authored with Emily Robertson) explores why.
On today’s show, the National SEED (Seeking Educational Equity and Diversity) Project. For over 30 years, this unique teacher-led professional development program has cultivated multicultural teaching and learning across the globe and around the U.S.
Forty-four seasons in, Shakespeare in Delaware Park is one of Buffalo, New York’s great public art traditions. As a little kid, some of my first memories of my hometown were family outings seeing old plays in this beautiful green space. As fortune had it, I returned this summer as a performer, joining an outstanding cadre of designers, actors, musicians, directors, managers, and interns to work on a fresh, fun production of Love’s Labour’s Lost. This episode showcases contributions from some people who make magic happen.
Emily Jane Style is a “relational scholar.” She appreciates the intellectual dimension of ideas, but also knows that ideas matter relationally, because there are real flesh-and-blood people in any given room, people with real and complex life stories involved in any given discourse. My favorite tribute to Emily’s work comes from Christina Patterson Brown, an educator and activist who studied with her in 1991, and recently thanked Emily for modeling “what woke and intersectional work looked like before there was an internet.”
The U.S. cultivates a belief in meritocracy: People get what they deserve. Whatever we have, we earned. The problem, of course, is that it’s not true. In this episode, I talk with with Dr. Peggy McIntosh, the scholar who has done more than anyone else in the past 30 years to advance the concept of privilege as crucial for understanding and dismantling our pervasive myth of meritocracy.
According to the April 8, 2019 edition of The Nation, U.S. college students who graduated in 2017 averaged $28,700 in student loan debt. According to this podcast, Cuban college students averaged 0. But that’s just the beginning of what we can learn from Cuba! Episode features highlights of my conversation with Yanna Cruzata Quintero, a sidebar on the jaw-dropping Cuban Literacy Campaign of 1961, and lots of good music.
Epic Theatre Ensemble a collaborative of teaching artists and students in New York City who believe that participation in theatre is essential to a healthy democracy, and that this kind of engaging theatre experience should be a hallmark of U.S. education for all students. This episode features highlights of my conversation with Melissa Friedman, Co-Founder and Co-Artistic Director of Epic Theatre Ensemble, as well as some examples of the amazing work Epic does to engage students as citizens.
Listening matters for every relationship, from loved ones at home to civil discourse in community and country. This new year’s episode honors a very cool experiment in listening undertaken at the Library for the Performing Arts in New York City for six weeks at the end of 2018. Dr. Jonathan Hiam, Curator of Recorded Sound, guides us through the room in an experimental episode lit by compositions of the visionary composer and performer Arthur Russell. I think you’ll dig it.
For 25 years, Anne Phinney was a teacher who believed firmly in the power of connecting with animals to influence kids' empathy, compassion, and ideas about teamwork. For all her life, she's been crazy about horses! She now spends full days living her dream life on Moose River Farm in the Adirondack Woods with her husband Rod, caring for a menagerie of horses, goats, llamas, chickens, geese, tortoises, dogs, and a pot-bellied pig. Today she offers llama treks, as well as sessions in equi-reflection, providing opportunities for people to learn from and with horses in deep ways. We discuss all of that and more during the 2018 Thanksgiving Special.
Jill Harrison Berg is an educator with nearly 30 years of experience working in all kinds of schools. Her new book Leading in Sync: Teacher Leaders and Principals Working Together for Student Learning (2018, ASCD) is the richest resource I’ve encountered in the last decade for people in schools who are ready to build the trust necessary for real collaboration and marshal the vast resources latent in every faculty for the best possible learning outcomes for kids. This episode will be of special interest to educators now working in schools, but anyone who works on a team in any kind of organization will benefit from what Jill has to say. [Art by Zuzy Gujda.]
This episode probes the value of mathematics and debate for students—and everyone else. Brent Farrand is an award-winning math teacher and kingmaker debate coach who established the debate team at Science High in Newark, NJ in 1979. [Thumbnail portrait of infinity by Brent Andrew Farrand.]
Jake Halpern has written about fame junkies, freegans, and die-hards who won’t leave their home under any circumstances. Also ice fortresses, enchanted forests, and twins switched at birth. One through-line for this award-winning journalist and author is storytelling; another is just plain learning.
Mom taught me how to braid bread, play fiddle, and disagree with others respectfully--and so much else. We discuss the value of praise in teaching and child-rearing, my grandmother Miriam George Meister, and a method of talent education that aims for world peace.
Recorded at the Apollo Theater in Harlem, a conversation about poems and poetry with two rising stars who are also talented teachers. Featuring Aja’s “What I’ve Learned” (excerpt) and Meghann’s “In Which I Name My Abuser Publicly.”
Oskar Eustis founded his first theatre company at the age of 16. From Tony Kushner's Angels in America to Lin-Manuel Miranda's Hamilton, Eustis has been intimately involved in the creation and development of many of the greatest works of American theatre of the past 30 years. Oskar and I sat down in his office at the Public Theater in February to talk about important teachers, Shakespeare, drama, democracy, Hamilton, the state of civil discourse ... and a few new ideas on the horizon.
Named for the year of its founding, Project '79 has been supporting and reclaiming high school students as learners for four decades. The oldest continuously running alternative education program I know about, it's also--for my money--just about the best way to do school. This month's episode let me sit down with coordinators Alan Lantis and Jackie Spring to talk about what matters most in designing and sustaining a program that keeps kids at the center of its work, addressing social and emotional needs as well as academic development.
Today I’m talking with Thomas Halpin, a master violinist and teacher. Halpin has concertized throughout the U.S. and abroad—yet for more than four decades he has focused on teaching.
Recorded live at First Baptist Church (Westfield, NJ) on 12/16/17. With music by Michael Rosin and the Westfield HS Concert Choir.
Talking learning and music with my older brothers John and Gregory. We discuss the role of relevance in motivation, parenting high school students, and how learning music is or is not like learning other things.
Advice about connecting with teens from a counselor with decades of experience. Geared towards parents, teachers, counselors, therapists, employers, and adult friends of teens.
I share some of what I've figured out about student voice, designing assignments, the artist vs. the editor, and standardized tests in our fastest format yet!
There are some popular ideas about writing and the teaching of writing that have run their course. This episode puts crowdsourced ideas before a panel of smart teachers working in different kinds of schools in states from Utah to Jersey to consider the form, audience, author, purpose, and process of writing.
A veteran educator lays out thoughts about supervision, establishing effective discussion environments, feminism, sarcasm, and poetry.
The current state of political discussion shows that somebody's got to provide a place for people to learn to listen and challenge each other respectfully. Bob Petix shares some ideas about this, as well as the difference between really leading a school and merely managing it.
Kevin's experience leads to a discussion of learning vs. acquiring skills, and a different way to think about roles for high school staff.