The Desire Line - SoundSage

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From your favorite one-time pastor/podcast host (of a podcast hosted by a pastor and a therapist), comes a new offering: The Naming the Real Podcast. This is another preview episode of this new podcast, which you can find and subscribe to at Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. But wait...there's more! Be excited, because new content is coming from Susette right here in the Desire Line Podcast feed very soon!

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From your favorite one-time pastor/podcast host (of a podcast hosted by a pastor and a therapist), comes a new offering: The Naming the Real Podcast. Because--as you may remember--the right naming of things is the beginning of wisdom.

Enjoy this episode from Brandon's new podcast, and then come join the party by subscribing. You can find it at Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And...look out for new (amazing) content coming from Susette, right here in the Desire Line podcast feed!

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Brandon and Susette announce, The Desire Line Podcast is coming to an end. In this final episode they reminisce over their favorite memories from the past 3 years and recognize the wonderful content produced and relationships formed because of it. Susette and Brandon have exciting projects coming up; to stay up to date on them follow their social media channels.

Until we meet again, may we all have the courage to walk the desire line...

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We jumped on mic for a bit for a raw episode talking about the CoronaVirus, Social Distancing, and how we're coping with this change.

Brandon identified the difference between Resistance and Acceptance, and aligned it with the normal emotional process of first fighting & resisting change and things we can't control, and the freedom that comes from accepting reality and leaning in. Susette walked us through the serenity prayer & the 12 steps, which is a character development process that we all can use. Especially Susette =)

I hope you enjoy this off-the-cuff episode.

We care about you. We're all doing our best. Give yourself, and your people, grace as we're in this experience.

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We are finishing our arc on abuse and discussion on recovery from abuse. Susette and Brandon bring up how family of origin affect abuse experiences, common phrases they hear that dismiss abuse, and the importance of creating boundaries on the path to forgiveness. There is no limit to how much we can thrive and flourish.

Coping skills created from family of origin: the good and the bad.

Functioning in the midst of dysfunction.

Not judging and not comparing

Common phrases that minimizes and ignores a victim's pain.

Before forgiveness can happen boundaries need to be set that provide physical and emotional safety.

RESOURCES

Domestic Violence Hotline: https://www.thehotline.org Child Abuse Reporting https://www.childwelfare.gov/organizations/?CWIGFunctionsaction=rols:main.dspList&rolType=Custom&RS_ID=%205 Elder Abuse: https://www.justice.gov/elderjustice Toxic Faith https://www.amazon.com/dp/0877888256/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_c_api_i_yHyzEbTHV6EKN Sexual Abuse Recovery: The Wounded Heart: Hope for Adult Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse

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Susette and Brandon wrap up our arc on abuse by talking about recovery and how we can flourish, thrive and triumph in the face of our trauma. In this episode Susette shares experiences in which her body and mind show in a miraculous way how they are intertwined and Brandon calls us to live in compassion, not comparison, for ourselves and others who are in trauma.

Recognizing and naming abuse.

Triggers

How the body reacts to triggers of abuse: reclaiming the value of the body

Disassociation

The importance of categorizing negative experiences as trauma and/or abuse while not comparing those experiences to others.

RESOURCES

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Last episode we continued our discussion on spiritual abuse. This week Brandon Cook shares a sermon he gave titled Forgiving Reality. In light of our arc on abuse we have explored the place forgiveness has on our path to healing from our trauma. Brandon takes the discussion a step further by suggesting that we have the choice to also forgive reality and the difficult circumstances and truths it brings.

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Join us as we continue our conversation on spiritual abuse as we strive for differentiation and being well informed to identify health church relationships.

"Spiritual Abuse is when someone use their spiritual authority or manipulates your natural spiritual longings to have power over you..." Brandon Cook.

Power can come from hierarchy and position such as created by the influence of the business model and the church.

We can decide what kind of power your pastor has.

"And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" Matthew 23:9

“Classically, there are three ways in which humans try to find transcendence--religious meaning--apart from God as revealed through the cross of Jesus: through the ecstasy of alcohol and drugs, through the ecstasy of recreational sex, through the ecstasy of crowds." - Eugene Peterson

As a leader there is a danger to find "ecstasy in crowds," and feed into ones own hype.

"Superpastor" problem

RESOURCES

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Susette and Brandon explore the topic of spiritual abuse. They recognize that leaders who have authority of the spiritual lives of others have a great impact however a powerful ability to hurt those they lead.

They call us to view our pastors and other spiritual leaders in appropriate roles. As well as pointing out to leaders some of their followers may project their God, paternal, or maternal images onto them. Although the person of authority has responsibility to refrain from abusing their power we all have the ability to sustain healthy boundaries in these relationships.

Spiritual Abuse - a pattern of behavior used by one person to gain and maintain POWER and CONTROL over another.

RESOURCES

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Susette and Brandon discuss what qualifies as emotional abuse and what does not. Although it is difficult to identify emotional abuse, they outline language and tools to help us be aware of the possible unhealthy power dynamics of relationships.

"Emotional abuse is an attempt to control, in just the same way that physical abuse is an attempt to control another person. The only difference is that the emotional abuser does not use physical hitting, kicking, pinching, grabbing, pushing, or other physical forms of harm. Rather the perpetrator of emotional abuse uses emotion as his or her weapon of choice.” - (See the article attached from Psychology Today)

Gaslighting: a form of psychological manipulation.

Codependent relationships and lack of differentiation in relationship can be a cause of emotional abuse

Pervasive Behaviors are good indicators of the presence of emotional abuse.

The heightened sensitivity non-reciprocal relationships have to covert abuse.

Emotional Abuse by Andrea Matthews of Psychology Today https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/emotional-abuse

Silently Seduced: When Parents Make their Children Partners - Understanding Covert Incest by Kenneth M. Adams Ph.D.

RESOURCES

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This week's episode continues our discussion with Barbara Sonofsky on the topic of sexual abuse. We explore the process of healing for individuals at different stages of their trauma, we identify what attitudes and obstacles keep us from healing and relish in a God who is the ultimate comforter, counselor and healer.

Choosing to be offended

Basic Pathway to Healing for Sexual Abuse Victims

Naming your trauma
Sharing trauma with a trusted confidant
What healing looks like for different experiences of trauma
Faith Hope and Love - 3 Tenants of Healing

How the Church Addresses Sexual Abuse

Me Too Movement

Dan Allendar and Narrative Therapy - https://theallendercenter.org/

What stands in the way of wholeness.

RESOURCES

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As we continue our arc on abuse Susette and Brandon invite Barbara Sonofsky to the conversation of sexual abuse. In this episode Barb shares her story and explains how her experiences and recovery has shaped her. We shed more light on the complexities of this form of abuse in hopes to raise awareness and provide outlets for healing.

Sexual abuse is unwanted sexual activity, with perpetrators using force, making threats or taking advantage of victims not able to give consent. Most victims and perpetrators know each other. Immediate reactions to sexual abuse include shock, fear or disbelief. Long-term symptoms include anxiety, fear or post-traumatic stress disorder. While efforts to treat sex offenders remain unpromising, psychological interventions for survivors — especially group therapy — appears effective.

RESOURCES

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This week Susette Magana shares a sermon on recognizing and accepting our emotions, learning to regulate them and integrating them in our relationship with God.

Emotions (all of them) are normal.

EMOTIONS and BEHAVIORS are different. When we feel something, we then make a choice to act.

“Ignoring our emotions is turning our back on reality; listening to our emotions ushers us into reality. And reality is where we meet God.” Dan Allendar.

God created us to experience a full range of emotions, but not to be subject to them (let them run our lives).
If we don’t deal with painful emotions, like anger, fear, sadness, they can become WAYS OF LIFE or part of our IDENTITY, like being resentful, anxious, or hopeless.

Ezekiel 36:26 NLT I will take your stony, stubborn heart, and give you a tender, responsive heart.

Emotional regulation: Once we know what’s happening, we can learn to regulate it.
Our Body: deep breathing, exercise, muscle relaxation for tension
Our Mind/Heart: Acknowledging our pain & fear, resisting shame, & asking for help.

Psalm 13 For the director of music. A psalm of David. 1 How long, Lord? Will you forget me forever?

How long will you hide your face from me?

2 How long must I wrestle with my thoughts

and day after day have sorrow in my heart?

How long will my enemy triumph over me?

3 Look on me and answer, Lord my God.

Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,

4 and my enemy will say, “I have overcome him,”

and my foes will rejoice when I fall.

5 But I trust in your unfailing love;

my heart rejoices in your salvation.

6 I will sing the Lord’s praise,

for he has been good to me.

The soul seeks harmony, connection, and integration.

Dallas Willard

PROBLEM:

DISINTEGRATION: When these parts of our soul feel disconnected (from self or others) or overwhelmed.

If we don’t deal with painful emotions, like anger, fear, sadness, they can become WAYS OF LIFE or part of our IDENTITY, like being resentful, anxious, or hopeless. These are more postures that our soul takes than emotional responses.

In order to NOT fall into these ways of living, we need to acknowledge them or confess them before God and trusted people, and work to keep our hearts and minds tender & responsive towards others.

Ezekiel 36:26 NLT

I will take your stony, stubborn heart, and give you a tender, responsive heart.

WHAT IF:

We could feel a full range of emotions, without self-judgement, but that we have enough wisdom to not “REACT” to them, but to “make decisions & respond” when we feel them.
What if emotions were a normal part of our daily life, instead of something that we avoid or demand attention for?
What if, as the family of God, we invited a full range of emotions into our prayers, song, and relationships?

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We continue the arc of abuse in this episode on the topic of physical abuse. Susette and Brandon discuss what this abuse looks like for children, and in romantic relationships, while more subvert forms physical abuse are brought to awareness. We realize these lines of definition are fine and more people than we realize struggle in pain than they let on.

Physical Abuse: is any intentional and unwanted contact with you or something close to your body. Sometimes abusive behavior does not cause pain or even leave a bruise, but it’s still unhealthy.

Scratching, punching, biting, strangling or kicking.
Throwing something at you such as a phone, book, shoe or plate.
Pulling your hair.
Pushing or pulling you.
Grabbing your clothing.
Using a gun, knife, box cutter, bat, mace or other weapon.
Smacking your bottom without your permission or consent.
Grabbing your face to make you look at them.
Grabbing you to prevent you from leaving or to force you to go somewhere.

RESOURCES

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We continue the arc of abuse in this episode on the topic of physical abuse. Susette and Brandon define what is considered physical abuse while also providing resources on how to further assess situations. We identify misconceptions of physical abuse and embark on a the issue of spanking, a subject that has a widely varied opinion.

Physical Abuse: is any intentional and unwanted contact with you or something close to your body. Sometimes abusive behavior does not cause pain or even leave a bruise, but it’s still unhealthy.

Scratching, punching, biting, strangling or kicking.
Throwing something at you such as a phone, book, shoe or plate.
Pulling your hair.
Pushing or pulling you.
Grabbing your clothing.
Using a gun, knife, box cutter, bat, mace or other weapon.
Smacking your bottom without your permission or consent.
Grabbing your face to make you look at them.
Grabbing you to prevent you from leaving or to force you to go somewhere.

Power Control Wheel: https://ywcaspokane.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/2018-YWCA-Spokane-Power-and-Control-Wheel.pdf

What Science Says - and Doesn't Say about Spanking: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-science-says-and-doesn-t-about-spanking/

RESOURCES

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This episode begins the arc on abuse in our season on Mental Health in the Church. Susette and Brandon discuss different types of abuse and how they should be properly addressed in their professional perspectives. We will recognize the different forms in which people experience abuse, how we can address it and efforts to take towards a recovery process.

Abuse: a pattern of behavior used by one person to gain and maintain POWER and CONTROL over another.

Types of abuse: Physical, Emotional/Verbal, Sexual, Spiritual Abuse, Mental/Psychological, Financial/Economic (adult protected groups or rich kids), Cultural (using someone’s culture to gain power over someone; e.g., undocumented worker), Neglect (in protected groups)

Spectrum of abuse

Trauma informed, abuse informed

Contemplative and compassionate perspective of life

Freedom

Strategies we form to avoid pain we need to face such as grief and lament

Mandated reporting

RESOURCES

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In this episode we get to look back at one of our most popular episodes on spiritual development.

Every faith journey is different, but are there discernible patterns that are common among us?
Law was good, but it could never transform
It was good, it taught you that we live in a moral universe, you weren’t designed to live under a baby-sitter for ever, meant to mature and live by the Spirit
It’s openness to God that transforms, Jesus is the path to openness in God, in his death, he demonstrated his absolute trust—his absolute openness—to God and to resurrection life in God

There often will come a point where you have to get off the paved path. Often times it’s suffering or some sort of inner conflict, or a product of the Christian culture that we're living in today.

“If you ask anybody, ‘What’s the activity that you had that made you who you are?’ no one says, ‘You know I had a really great vacation in Hawaii.’ No one says that. They say, ‘I had a period of struggle. I lost a loved one. I was in the Army. And that period of struggle or that period of toughness made me who I am.’”

This idea of the dark night, some period where your faith seems inadequate or your suffering makes you ask, “Where is God?” is one of the key characteristics in the pattern of spiritual development

Every journey is different, but are there discernible patterns to the spiritual journey?
This can help us normalize our journey! We are not alone.
“It hurts to become real”
-The Velveteen Rabbit

SCRIPTURE
This development is actually normalized in Scripture
We are all being changed (2 Corinthians 3:18) What matters is becoming new creation

So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

Law-NT
Paul: law is a baby-sitter (Galatians 3:24)

Law was good, but it could never transform
It was good, it taught you that we live in a moral universe, you weren’t designed to live under a baby-sitter for ever, meant to mature and live by the Spirit
It’s openness to God that transforms, Jesus is the path to openness in God, in his death, he demonstrated his absolute trust—his absolute openness—to God and to resurrection life in God
Development in the nation of Israel
Jesus: Kingdom of Heaven: Mustard seed
NT Wright: every generation must wrestle with…
“We must stop giving 16th century answers…”

PSYCHOLOGY
James Fowler Stage of Faith

M. Scott Peck
The Road Less Traveled
http://www.whale.to/b/peck1.html
-Stage I Chaotic, Antisocial
Antisocial in that it’s all “me” (perhaps Hedonistic)

-Stage II Formal, Institutional, Fundamental
Boundaries good
Dark side: very either-or, all-or-nothing. Have difficulty explaining, or comforting when experiencing suffering.

-Stage III
Skeptic, Individual, Questioner
Life is more gray than previously acknowledged

-Stage IV
Mystic, Communal
Open to God

Notice, Every pattern or theory of development we’re going to talk about today ends in some sort of “union”

It's possible, or probable to be in more than one at once. Not linear.
We may be in both or all at different times.

Exercise: In the midst of a painful thought, relationship or memory, asking God: "How can you be so good?"

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The Desire Line Podcast presents a message given by our very own Brandon Cook. We will dive into the Lord's prayer and it's implications on our spiritual and prayer practices.

Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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Brandon and Susette continue the discussion of the long lasting myth that affects how we view mental health, especially in relation to faith; that the body doesn’t matter. Having a dualistic mindset on this topic brings us closer to the desireline. The roles of neuroscience, contemplative practice and the balance of opposites are introduced. Although it is easier to separate body and mind, and pretend to live in a black and white world God created us as integrated beings and invites everyone to in the truth and mystery of that.

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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Brandon and Susette dive deeper into a long lasting myth that affects how we view mental health, especially in relation to faith; that the body doesn’t matter. We talk about what healthy integration of both mind and body in terms of our faith looks like, and the importance of expressing that in a culture where the body is viewed as less than.

Balance of Opposites

Spirituality is Physical

Epigenetics Elevating the Role of the Body
Emotional pain received as physical pain to the brain

The mind craves embodiment

BOTH/AND in mind body and life

"Psychiatry & Psychotherapy Podcast" with David Puder Episode 60

"The Science of Storytelling" by Lani Peterson

https://www.harvardbusiness.org/the-science-behind-the-art-of-storytelling/

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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Brandon and Susette dive deeper into a long lasting myth that affects how we view mental health, especially in relation to faith; the body and mind are separate entities. This is seen in Greco versus Hebraic view of the body and mind. We talk about what healthy integration of both looks like, and the importance of expressing that in a culture where the body is viewed as less than.

Join us on our Facebook Group: The Desire Line Podcast Community

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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In this bonus episode we take a break from our series on mental health and the church to talk about current events surrounding suicidality. Susette takes an educational moment to address how we talk about suicide in our communities and how talking about suicide relieves a stigma providing a space for us to support one another. They share their experiences, presuppositions, and truths they have found surrounding this topic. Discussing how we can walk alongside those who struggle with depression or suicidality and guide them toward mental health professionals who can appropriately help and treatment.

Suicide in ministry and the mental health profession

How suicide has been viewed and portrayed in the past in the church

Important knowledge about suicidality

Differentiation between suicidal thoughts, attempts and dying by suicide
Talking about it, or asking about it, doesn’t mean that we’re going to plant suicidal thoughts in your own or someone’s else’s head.
Mental health professionals are trained on how to assess the severity of suicidal thinking.

Factors of depression.

Genetics
Environmental factors
Choice in engagement in community, health & treatment

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

1-800-273-8255

Steve Austin Article

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/09/22/christianity-suicide-church-pastor-jarrid-wilson-column/2386533001/

From Pastor to Psych Ward Steve Austin

https://www.amazon.com/Pastor-Psych-Ward-Recovery-Possible-ebook/dp/B01LC1LI42

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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Episode 54- MENTAL HEALTH AND THE CHURCH I: MYTHS OF MENTAL HEALTH CONT’

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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In this episode the conversation of myths surrounding mental health in the church continues as we discuss why these myths are present, how they affect us and the truths in place of them that lead to spiritual growth. Brandon and Susette also share and compare their experiences of when people come to them for guidance in mental health issues. We chat about ways the some churches and organizations serve the mental health of their community and how others can do the same.

How people approach pastors and therapists with mental health issues.

What were we taught about mental health from the church and/or family

The power and responsibility spiritual leaders have of their followers.

Myths: How Christians Have Viewed Mental Health

Therapy helps people be self-involved

I Saw Satan Fall Like Lightning - Rene Girard

https://www.amazon.com/See-Satan-Fall-Like-Lightning/dp/1570753199

Hope for Mental Health founded by Rick and Kay Warren

https://hope4mentalhealth.com/

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In this episode we introduce the theme of season three, mental health and the church, and begin to uncover some of the myths associated with these two different, yet integral movements. In this theme we’ll explore how faith communities might or might not engage with issues and how we, in faith, live authentically, empathetic, and connected. The catch all phrase “mental health” looks at the emotional, psychological and social well being. We discuss how our body, mind and soul contribute to our mental health and dissect problematic theologies that can pull us away from optimum mental health and spiritual maturity. The myths that often surround mental health and its implication of one’s faith are uncovered and disputed and a call to recognize and use the God given tools we have to be more mentally healthy is given.

What does the catch all phrase mental health mean?

Shema, the intention to Love the Lord God with your whole being.

“Those in whom the Spirit comes to live are God's new Temple. They are, individually and corporately, places where heaven and earth meet.” - NT Wright

Myths: How Christians Have Viewed Mental Health

Focusing on emotion or physical body makes you weak (faithless)

Body mind divide

Prayer is all you need to heal problems

Deut 6:4-8 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.”

Luke 10:25-28 “On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he asked, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life? What is written in the Law?’ he replied. ‘How do you read it?’ He answered, ‘‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

‘You have answered correctly,’ Jesus replied. ‘Do this and you will live.’”

Lost Connections by Johann Hari https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Connections-Uncovering-Depression-Unexpected/dp/163286830X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KHS13C5G38DV&keywords=lost+connections&qid=1567786680&s=gateway&sprefix=lost+conn%2Caps%2C229&sr=8-1

Join us on our Facebook Group: The Desire Line Podcast Community

On instagram: @desire.line.podcast @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

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The end is always bittersweet. We're wrapping up Season 2 this week with a discussion on all the topics covered throughout the past year. In part one of our chat, we go back into our arcs on Attachment Theory and Understanding The Bible. Thanks so much for tuning in!

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It's an Enneagram Party! Part Two!

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It's an Enneagram Party!

Kristy Hinds is a speaker, author and storyteller. You can find her book Redeemed: The Power Of A Single Story here at this link!

Barbara Sunofsky is the Pastor of Family and Soul Care at Long Beach Christian Fellowship. You can find her at LBCF.org.

Bryan Rouanzion is the Pastor of Teaching and Formation at Canopy Church in Costa Mesa, California.

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We're back again with another Enneagram episode. This week we discuss with our esteemed colleague and friend of the podcast, Bryan Rouanzion, Enneagram Wings and the ways that each type turns to others in moments of stress and moments of health. Thanks for joining us!

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Part two is here! Continuing out discussion from last weeks episode, we dive into our final Enneagram Triad; The Mind. We also delve into the Myers Briggs correlation within enneagram types. Thanks for tuning in!

Bryan Rouanzion is the Pastor of Teaching and Formation at Canopy Church in Costa Mesa, California.

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Bryan's back...alright! This week we're diving into further discussion on two of the three intelligence centers covered in the previous episode. If you are not caught up, we highly suggest you give episode 45 a listen. If you are bummed we didn't cover your enneagram number in this episode, have no fear, we will be continuing our conversation in the following ep. So keep your eyes peeled!

Bryan Rouanzion is the Pastor of Teaching and Formation at Canopy Church in Costa Mesa, California.

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Personality reigns supreme. This week we're diving in to The Enneagram with friend-of-the-podcast, Bryan Rouanzoin. With ancient roots that transformed into a further exploration and understanding in the 20th century, The Enneagram taps into a deeper sense of human personality and archetype within all of us. We talk the nine types and how they divide into three separate centers existing within our own bodies. All of this with the hope that you, the listener, will consider it a helpful invitation to know thyself.

Bryan Rouanzion is the Pastor of Teaching and Formation at Canopy Church in Costa Mesa, California.

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A bonus ep! We are so excited to share this conversation with our DLPC. We are huge fans of the CXMH Podcast and we hope you love our chat with Robert Vore & Dr. Holly Oxhandler as much as we did.

Click here to check out their podcast!

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We’re back with another episode on personality! Today we discuss the different ways that we seek God. We touch on how this correlates to our Myers-Briggs, strength praying/playing and what functionally puts you in touch with the divine. Thanks so much for tuning in, we hope you enjoy!

NBC’s One To Grow On

Four Temperaments:

-Sanguine

-Choleric

-Melancholic

-Phlegmatic

Episode 15: M Scott Peck

C.S Lewis Dark Night Of The Soul

Romans 14

1 Corinthians 8

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. - John 15:5

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law” Galatians 5:22-23

Please Understand Me - David Keirsey

Idealist

Rationalist

Artisan

Gaurdian

Who We Are Is How We Pray - Charles Keating

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In our 3rd episode on Personality, we dive into the Four "Ancient" Temperaments first introduced by Galen of Pergamon, a Greek physician and surgeon. We talk our own individual reflections on the aforementioned identities, the utilization of these in popular media and how Keirsey realigned them to work alongside the Meyer-Briggs theory on personality. All of this and more, to ultimately learn how to make sense of your identity while also living in peace with those around you.

Dr. David Keirsey was an American psychologist, a professor emeritus at California State University, Fullerton, and the author of several books. With a focus on conflict management and cooperation, Keirsey specialized in family and partnership counseling and the coaching of children and adults.

Episodes 25-29 of Desire Line Podcast- Attachment Theory

Sermon On The Mount: Judging

Romans 1 & 2: Sexuality

Stage II: the stage at which a person has blind faith in authority figures and sees the world as divided simply into good and evil, right and wrong, us and them. Once children learn to obey their parents and other authority figures, often out of fear or shame, they reach Stage II. Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good, law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II.

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's." ... For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God." If the law of the land is that everyone must pay war taxesthen that is what we must do. It is the law!

Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh

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Find us! We want to connect with you.

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FB: The Desire Line Podcast Community

Twitter: @susettemtherapy @brandonalancook @mydesireline

Patreon: www.patreon.com/desirelinepodcast

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In the second episode in our arc on personality, we dive into Personality Theory, taking on the questions that are essential to the human paradigm... How am I different from you? How are you different from me? How do see the world and learn about it? How do we make decisions?

Personality theory, as we understand it in pop culture, is about unique gifts & individuality and how we interface with the world. In other words: How I’m different from you, and how we can live in relationship with these differences. Maximizing our strengths, appreciating our differences. We can choose to not live in judgment of our weaknesses.

This speaks beautifully to the Desire Line path -- sometimes following the paved path doesn’t bring the results it promises (union with God), because we’re made in a way that doesn’t fit the model. We have to discover our God-given way of walking.

All of these and more in this episode. We hope you stay tuned!

Heres some trusted MB links:

https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/home.htm?bhcp=1

https://keirsey.com/temperament-overview/

Click here for the Brene Brown Anatomy of Trust video

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Join us on our Facebook Group: The Desire Line Podcast Community.

On Instagram: @susette.magana.therapy & @brandonalancook

Support us on Patreon on "The Desire Line Podcast."

In this episode, we begin our arc on Personality Theories, and how they inform who we are. These next few episodes will cover the Myers-Briggs, the Enneagram, and other theories (like the 4 Temperaments). We'll look at what they have in common, how they differ, and how they teach us about how we experience the world & make decisions in life.

We talk "subjective vs. objective" personality theories, meaning, they're self-assessed. Personality assessments are about discovering meaning in your relationships more than finding concrete facts about yourself.

“The unexamined life is not worth living” - Socrates

Imago Dei ("image of God") ("image of God"): A theological term, applied uniquely to humans, which denotes the symbolical relation between God and humanity. ... To say that humans are in the image of God is to recognize the special qualities of human nature which allow God to be made manifest in humans.

Flesh vs. Spirit:

For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Galatians 5:17

False self vs True self:

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Romans 8:9

“Everyone of us is shadowed by an illusory person: a false self..We are not very good at recognizing illusions, least of all the ones we cherish about ourselves.” -Thomas Merton

Henri Nouwen was a Dutch Catholic priest, professor, writer and theologian. His interests were rooted primarily in psychology, pastoral ministry, spirituality, social justice and community.

“Joy is the most vulnerable emotion” - Brene Brown

Brene Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston. She has spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy and is the author of five #1 New York Times bestsellers: The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, Rising Strong, Braving the Wilderness, and her latest book, Dare to Lead, which is the culmination of a seven-year study on courage and leadership.

Matthew 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too.

"Frankly, there isn't anyone you couldn't learn to love once you've heard their story”

-Fred Rogers

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Today is a stand alone episode with Pastor & Author Kristy Hinds & Susette. Kristy worked for years at a local Long Beach church as an Associate Pastor, now works in her denomination as a District Superintendent. Or, a "Pastor for Pastors."

She has recently written a book called "Redeemed: The Power of a Single Story."

Kristy and Susette talk about her experience with leading a group on Racial Reconciliation, and how they used prayer & a model from Ephesians 4 to join the group first in Unity in Christ before discussing their experiences & pain with each other.

We missed Brandon in this episode! He'll be back in the next arc on Personality (starting with Episode 41). Yea for personality theory!

Check out Kristy Hinds' Book:

Ephesians 4

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the watery depths, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters." "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

Listening Prayer:

Relax your brain, either by walking or sitting still. Get comfortable.
Notice your breathing, and slow it down in order to reduce your heart rate and any racing thoughts.
Think on things of God, prepare your mind to listen to Him.

Here's some ideas:

The Trinity. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and The Holy Spirit. Think about passages like Romans 8:26 that talk about how they interact.
God is Love (John 1 or 1 John)
Names for God
- "Almighty Creator" - God creates and sustains the world
- God sees me
- God is Peace
- God Will Provide
- God is my protector
- God heals
- The Lord is present with us
- God Emmanuel - God is with us
Sit silently. Ask God to speak

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We finish our arc on Understanding the Bible, and our discussion on "Weird Bits" of the Bible that can bring up fear or doubt (cont'd from Episode 38). In this ep, we look at Violence in the Bible, and use Greg Boyd's perspective on how to view it.

Click here to listen to our previous episode

"If you’re outside on a day when you can only catch glimpses of the sun, it means it’s a mostly cloudy day. So, as we read the OT, we should remain aware that these authors had a rather cloudy vision of God.”

Gregory A. Boyd, Cross Vision

John 17

Philemon Slave Story

Ephesians 5:22

Deut 20:16-18

Tutti Frutti - Little Richard

Galatians 3:24

“I’ve to come to reveal the true heart of the law” - Romans 2:15

Gregory Boyd - podcast

Hermeneutic def: concerning interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.

1 Corinthians 13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Colossians 1:15

2 Corinthians 4:6

Cognitive dissonance def: the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

Psalm 137:9 “May the babies of our enemies be dashed against the rocks”

Marvin Wilson - Our Father Abraham

John 15:5

Exodus 14:14

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Weird bits of the bible. They're there. Now what do we do with them? In this episode we dive into scripture, wrestling with the inconsistencies, theological differences and other instances in the bible that can sometimes give a bit of a gut punch. We discuss our own personal journey's, different schools of thought and resting in the trust of God despite these feelings.

How do the parts of the bible that don't make sense, or seem to not fit, inform our faith?

How can our perspective on scripture move from cognitive dissonance to doubt & questioning to trusting Jesus before anything else?

Click here for Jessica’s Website

Process Theology: is the philosophical and theological position that God is changing, as is the universe.

Open theism: “Open theism,” also known as “openness theology,” the “openness of God,” and “free will theism,” is an attempt to explain the foreknowledge of God in relationship to the free will of man. The argument of open theism is essentially this: human beings are truly free; if God absolutely knew the future, human beings could not truly be free. Therefore, God does not know absolutely everything about the future. Open theism holds that the future is not knowable. Therefore, God knows everything that can be known, but He does not know the future.

The Geneva Conventions comprise four treaties, and three additional protocols, that establish the standards of international law for humanitarian treatment in war.

Dallas Albert Willard was an American philosopher also known for his writings on Christian spiritual formation. Much of his work in philosophy was related to phenomenology, particularly the work of Edmund Husserl, many of whose writings he translated into English for the first time.

Marks Account Of Jesus

Matthew’s Account Of Jesus

1 Kings 15:14

2 Chronicles 14:2

Click here to listen to our episodes on M Scott Pecks Four Stages Of Spiritual Development

Psalm 12:6

2 Timothy 3:16-17

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Hey Desire Line family!

We are back with another episode in our series on Understanding The Bible. Today we dive back into human development and the ways it mirrors spiritual development, seen throughout the history of the bible. We use Erik Erikson's Theory of Psychosocial Development to examine books of the bible and how early Christians stop defining themselves by the rules, and begin defining themselves as a people of God.

In typical Desire Line tradition, there are at least two unplanned song breaks, so you really don't want to miss this one!

Richard Rohr OFM is an American author, spiritual writer, and Franciscan friar based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He was ordained to the priesthood in the Roman Catholic Church in 1970. He has been called "one of the most popular spirituality authors and speakers in the world.”

“Heaven is important but it’s not the end of the world” - NT WRIGHT

Parable Of The Mustard Seed

Rohr says: “Walter Brueggeman connects the story of the Hebrew Scriptures with the development of human consciousness. Brueggemann identifies different stages in the three major parts of the Hebrew Scriptures: the Torah, the Prophets, and the Wisdom literature.

The Torah, or the first five books, correspond, Brueggemann says, to the good and necessary “first half of life.” This is the period in which the people of Israel were given their identity through law, tradition, structure, certitude, group ritual, clarity, and chosenness.”

Erik Homburger Erikson was a German-American developmental psychologist and psychoanalyst known for his theory on psychological development of human beings.

Healthy self-criticism helps you realize you are not that good, and your group is not the only chosen people. It begins to break down either/or, dualistic thinking as you realize all things are both good and bad. This makes idolatry of anything and war against anybody much less likely. The prophets do not have much good to say about Israel, and thus seem to have all been killed (Matthew 23:31-32).

-Richard Rohr

Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Isaiah 58

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

" Universalism," in its simple and proper theological sense, is the doctrine of universal salvation; or in other words, of the final holiness and happiness of all humans, to be effected by the grace of God, through the ministry of his Son, Jesus Christ.

Click here to listen to Episode 15 of The Desire Line

Numbers 6:24-26 New Living Translation (NLT) 24 ‘May the Lord bless you

and protect you.

25 May the Lord smile on you

and be gracious to you.

26 May the Lord show you his favor

and give you his peace.’

I Don't Want It by DC Talk

Lyrics: https://genius.com/Dc-talk-i-dont-want-it-lyrics

The Best Part:

S-e-x is test when I'm pressed
So back up off with less of that zest
Impress this brother with a life of virtue
The innocence that's spent is gonna hurt you
Safe is the way they say to play
Then again safe ain't safe at all today
So just wait for the mate that's straight from god
Don't have sex 'til you tie the knot

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We are back again with another episode in our arc on Understanding The Bible.

In a decidedly lighter episode, we discuss how the development of scripture mirrors human development and human psychology. We go through M. Scott Pecks Four Stages Of Spiritual Development and how it ties in directly to the development of scripture in the history of the bible. We tackle everything from living and wrestling with our own stages and how that relates to our relationship with scripture to a lengthly tangent discussing personalizing tv theme songs to sing to loved ones in our life. It's a fun one!

Let's dive in.

Click here to learn more about Reinvent Ministries

Genesis 1:28

Isaiah 6

John 17: 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Original Righteousness is a concept in Roman Catholic theology relating to the Edenic state of sinlessness. According to this doctrine, Adam and Eve were created without sin (a point that all Christian churches agree upon), and this original righteousness meant that a number of conditions that are now "natural" did not apply. Humans were, in such a state, united with their essence, and therefore their forms were, as their spirits, untainted.

Mark 4:30-32

And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it? "It is like a mustard seed, which, when sown upon the soil, though it is smaller than all the seeds that are upon the soil, yet when it is sown, it grows up and becomes larger than all the garden plants and forms large branches; so that the birds of the air can nest under its shade."

Galatians 3:24-26 New International Version (NIV)

So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith.

Scott Peck 4 Stages Of Spiritual Development

Stage I is chaotic, disordered, and reckless. Very young children are in Stage I. They tend to defy and disobey, and are unwilling to accept a will greater than their own. They are extremely egoistic and lack empathy for others. Many criminals are people who have never grown out of Stage I.

Stage II is the stage at which a person has blind faith in authority figures and sees the world as divided simply into good and evil, right and wrong, us and them. Once children learn to obey their parents and other authority figures, often out of fear or shame, they reach Stage II. Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve.

Stage III is the stage of scientific skepticism and questioning. A Stage III person does not accept things on faith but only accepts them if convinced logically.

Stage IV is the stage where an individual starts enjoying the mystery and beauty of nature and existence. While retaining skepticism, he starts perceiving grand patterns in nature and develops a deeper understanding of good and evil, forgiveness and mercy, compassion and love. His religiousness and spirituality differ significantly from that of a Stage II person, in the sense that he does not accept things through blind faith or out of fear, but does so because of genuine belief, and he does not judge people harshly or seek to inflict punishment on them for their transgressions. This is the stage of loving others as yourself, losing your attachment to your ego, and forgiving your enemies.

Philippians 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Matthew 18

Romans 13 & 14

1st Corinthians 8

Walter Brueggemann is an American Protestant Old Testament scholar and theologian who is widely considered one of the most influential Old Testament scholars of the last several decades

Click Here to find classes by Rikk Watts

How To Read The Bible Book By Book

Prayer of Examen

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How do we read scripture through the filter of Jesus, shifting the focus of our faith?

We are now on our 3rd episode in our arc on Understanding The Bible. In this episode we talk about reading scripture as a story of ongoing development, the revelation of who God is in Jesus and how the understanding of a deeper meaning is a transformed heart.

Dive in with us.

Purchase Brandon’s Book!

To read more on the Nazi’s use of Romans 13 to justify evil click here

John Knox was a Scottish minister, theologian, and writer who was a leader of the country's Reformation. He is the founder of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland.

John 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

“You need more than just scripture, you need divine understanding”

“Jesus is the only perfect revelation of god”

John 17:6-26

Heretic: person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted

Exodus 34

Habakkuk 3:4 His coming is as brilliant as the sunrise. Rays of light flash from his hands, where his awesome power is hidden.

Job 38

Theodicy def: the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil

The Book of Job is set in the Land of Uz

The story of Job was written down during the early Second Temple era (late 6th century BCE to the early 4th century BCE)

Lament: a passionate expression of grief or sorrow

Isaiah 58

Galatians 3:24 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

More reading on M Scott Peck’s Stages Of Spiritual Development

Listen to the best song ever: Fergalicious

Listen to: the Kids Incorporated theme

Roger Rabbit Shave and Haircut Clip

Ephesians 3:16-19 NLT I pray that from his glorious, unlimited resources he will empower you with inner strength through his Spirit. Then Christ will make his home in your hearts as you trust in him. Your roots will grow down into God’s love and keep you strong. And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

Further Up Further in is from The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Part three of Understanding The Bible is here! In this episode, we discuss our 'patron saint of the podcast', NT Wright and his thoughts on viewing the bible "from 20,000 feet".

We discuss how NT breaks down scripture into 5 acts and how they ultimately serve as a love story of restoration between Creator and his beloved Creation, now embodied and personified in the church.

N.T. WRIGHT is the former Bishop of Durham in the Church of England and one of the world's leading Bible scholars. He is now serving as the Chair of New Testament and Early Christianity at the School of Divinity at the University of St. Andrews. For twenty years he taught New Testament studies at Cambridge, McGill and Oxford Universities. His award-winning books include The Case for the Psalms, How God Became King, Simply Jesus, After You Believe, Surprised by Hope, Simply Christian, Scripture and the Authority of God, The Meaning of Jesus (co-authored with Marcus Borg), as well as being the translator for The Kingdom New Testament. He also wrote the impressive Christian Origins and the Question of God series, including The New Testament and the People of God, Jesus and the Victory of God, The Resurrection of the Son of God and most recently, Paul and the Faithfulness of God.

‘Each word must be understood within its own verse, each verse within its on chapter, each chapter within its own book, and each book within its own historical, cultural, and indeed canonical setting.’

-NT Wright

Cognitive Dissonance: the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

Complementarianism: a theological view held by some in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, that men and women have different but complementary roles and responsibilities in marriage, family life, religious leadership, and elsewhere. The word "complementary" and its cognates are currently used to denote this view.

Ephesians 5

Story of Philemon

NT Wright - Audio (For long commutes)

The Bible In Five Acts

Creation

Fall

Israel

Jesus

Church

Revelation 22

Genesis 3

Genesis 6

Genesis 12

Centering prayer: is a modernized prayer method based on the intuitive prayer rooted in Lectio Divina. It is a method of silent prayer that prepares us to receive the gift of contemplative prayer, prayer in which we experience the Divine’s immanent presence with us. Centering prayer is grounded in relationship with God, through Christ, and is a practice to nurture that relationship.

The Lord’s Prayer New King James:

Our Father in heaven,

Hallowed be Your name.

Your kingdom come.

Your will be done

On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts,

As we forgive our debtors.

And do not lead us into temptation,

But deliver us from the evil one.

For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

The Lord’s Prayer by Dallas Willard

Dear Father always near us,

may your name be treasured and loved,

may your rule be completed in us-

may your will be done here on earth in

just the way it is done in heaven.

Give us today the things we need today,

and forgive us our sins and impositions on you

as we are forgiving all who in any way offend us.

Please don’t put us through trials,

but deliver us from everything bad.

Because you are the one in charge,

and you have all the power, and the glory too is all yours-forever-

which is just the way we want it!

Polemic: a strong verbal or written attack on someone or something.

Rikk Watts: served as Regent College's Professor of New Testament from 1996-2016. Along with his position as a Research Professor with Regent, he is currently the Dean of Theology at Alphacrucis College in Australia.

The Tyger By William Blake

Towards the end of the episode, Brandon mentions that Susette will do an exercise, but we forgot! Check out Lectio Divina at the end of Ep 33 for a method for reading the bible with a posture of "Listening for God's Voice."

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Please rate, review & subscribe to The Desire Line Podcast--it really helps us to get the word out!

Do you relate to the Bible primarily as an orientation to right and wrong or as the story of God pursuing man? Are you willing to wrestle with it?

For the second episode in our arc on Understanding The Bible, we dive straight into the history of the text itself. If you are a lover of some good ol' historical context, this episode is for you!

We discuss Jesus's own relationship with scripture; how our understanding and idea of what the bible is has shaped our spiritual development; God's willingness to get on the level of his people and help those to seek to understand; and a musical rendition of all 66 books in the Christian Bible? Stay tuned.

Matthew 3:17: And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 4:1-11

Psalm 91

Deuteronomy 6-8

Mason: a builder and worker in stone.

Apocrypha are works, usually written, of unknown authorship or of doubtful origin. Biblical Apocrapha is a set of texts included in the Latin Vulgate and Septuagint but not in the Hebrew Bible. While Catholic tradition considers some of these texts to be deutercanononical , Protestants consider them apocryphal. Thus, Protestant bibles do not include the books within the Old Testament but have often included them in a separate section.

Click here to read Bel and the Dragon

Click here to read The Maccabees

Click here for David Dungan, Constantine's Bible: Politics and the Making of the New Testament

Romans 1

Psalms 19 : The heavens declare the glory of God;

the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Day after day they pour forth speech;

night after night they reveal knowledge.

Matthew 13:58: And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith

Matthew 22:32: I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

________________________________________________________

Ways to connect to Brandon & Susette:

Join our Facebook Group: Desire Line Podcast Community

Twitter: @mydesireline @susettemtherapy @brandonalancook

Instagram: @brandonalancook @susette.magana.therapy

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Please rate, review & subscribe to The Desire Line Podcast--it really helps us to get the word out!

Do you relate to the Bible primarily as an orientation to right and wrong or as the story of God pursuing man? Are you willing to wrestle with it?

For the first episode in our arc on Understanding The Bible, we dive straight into the history of the text itself. If you are a lover of some good ol' historical context, this episode is for you!

Matthew 3:17: And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Matthew 4:1-11

Psalm 91

Deuteronomy 6-8

Mason: a builder and worker in stone.

Click here to read Bel and the Dragon

Click here to read The Maccabees

Click here for David Dungan, Constantine's Bible: Politics and the Making of the New Testament

Romans 1

Psalms 19 : The heavens declare the glory of God;

the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Day after day they pour forth speech;

night after night they reveal knowledge.

Matthew 13:58: And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith

Matthew 22:32: I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

________________________________________________________

Ways to connect to Brandon & Susette:

Join our Facebook Group: Desire Line Podcast Community

Twitter: @mydesireline @susettemtherapy @brandonalancook

Instagram: @brandonalancook @susette.magana.therapy

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Click here to find Brandon's new book!

"Be still and know that I am God".

How many times have we found ourselves wrought with feelings of anxious obligation when it comes to making time to be with God? For many of us, the time needs to look like silent prayer, meditation or other spiritual practices with an emphasis on stilling our bodies to be more susceptible to what God has to say to us.

In an engaging and insightful interview, we speak with friend and pastor, Mike Goldsworthy. Mike challenges that idea by speaking about the impact of engaging in tangible, physical movement as a spiritual practice; otherwise known as Embodied Prayer.

Click here to learn more about Dallas Willard

Click here to read The Divine Conspiracy

Click here to read more on Spiritual Practices by Dallas Willard

It is vital that Christians in every generation learn to discern what matters, to distinguish things that differ, to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. NT Wright

Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken

Join our facebook group: Desire Line Podcast Community to connect to us and other listeners.

Website: www.desirelinepodcast.com
Twitter: @mydesireline and @brandonalancook
Instagram: @susette.magana.therapy and @brandonalancook

Find Mike Goldsworthy on Twitter at @mikegoldsworthy, or hear Mike preached on Parkcrest Christian Church's podcast "Parkcrest's Podcast." on Apple Podcasts

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It's the final (countdown!) episode in our arc on Attachment Theory. We have all this theory, now what do we do with it?

In this episode we cover the practical application of attachment theory and what it means to be healthily and unhealthily attached in 9 different categories:

Body
Attitudes
Feeling
Behavior
Thoughts
Abilities
Desires
Choices
Limits

Click here to read along with us.

As we read through, notice which ones strike you or speak to you. These may be areas where differentiation work can happen in your own life.

Charles Swindoll quote on attitude:

The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than success, than what other people think or say or do.

It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company … a church … a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day.

We cannot change our past… we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude…

I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you, we are in charge of our attitudes.

James 1

Humbly Grateful or Grumbly Hateful (re: Brandon's "What's Your Attitude")

Next, we will take you through the practical application for responding to the need for Differentiation and Healthy Attachment:

Awareness
Self-regulation
Responding with courage

Click here to read more on Differentiation.

Click here to read more on Healthy Attachment.

Self Regulation (def.) :

Behavioral Self-Regulation: the ability to act in your long-term best interest, consistent with your deepest values

Emotional Self-Regulation: the ability to respond to the ongoing demands of experience with the range of emotions in a manner that is socially tolerable and sufficiently flexible to permit spontaneous reactions as well as the ability to delay spontaneous reactions as needed

Click here to read through the full serenity prayer.

Please submit any question you have through https://www.desirelinepodcast.com/connect

Join our facebook group: Desire Line Podcast Community to connect to us and other listeners.

Website: www.desirelinepodcast.com
Twitter: @mydesireline and @brandonalancook
Instagram: @susette.magana.therapy and @brandonalancook

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It REALLY helps us to grow.

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Also, check out our Patreon (www.patreon.com/desirelinepodcast) if you'd like to help us to cover our production costs. Any amount is SO helpful to us. We're very thankful for you!!

Today, we're continuing the discussion on Attachment. This arc starts on Episode 25. We've talked Bonding for a few episodes, and today, we continue to discuss Boundaries. Taking a lot of our information from the books "Boundaries" by John Townsend & Henry Cloud.

"Exercising "Secure Attachment" as an adult includes learning how to have boundaries in our relationships."

Differentiation: you feel bonded enough that you can set boundaries
In other words, the is feeling bonding and safe enough that you can set boundaries.
It also means you can comfort yourself without having someone else having to make you okay. And you don’t have to inappropriately take responsibility for someone else’s feelings.

Codependency: a lack of boundaries, not “staying on your side of the fence”
Taking responsibility (or over-responsibility) for someone’s else’s state of being rather than drawing an appropriate boundary

Without "Differentiation" we respond to FEAR (see Amygdala, Fight or Flight).
AVOID...because the person’s feelings are too overwhelming
PLEASING...taking responsibility for their overreaction and trying to please them enough to calm them down (which trains them to be codependent)
You may recognize in these the attachment types
VACILLATE...pretend like the overwhelming emotion doesn’t exist or then getting overburdened by it and trying to solve it and then getting angry when we can’t and perhaps withdrawing again

“You’re not the boss of me…” Bill Harley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1cgWL3SH2g

Dinosaurs/Hypnotize Me Mash Up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VzZi-YrkRY

John 17
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=NLT

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Don't forget to subscribe, rate & review us on iTunes!

It REALLY helps us to grow.

Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/desirelinepodcast

Instagram: @susette.magana.therapy and @brandonalancook

Twitter: @mydesireline, @susettemtherapy and @brandonalancook

Today's episode will focus on the insecure attachment styles that are part of our relationships in adulthood. Basically--how do we deal with feelings of rejection, vulnerability and deep needs?

Our material comes from the book "How We Love," by Milan & Kay Yerkovich.

"Internal Working Model"
"A cognitive framework comprising mental representations for understanding the world, self, and others. A person’s interaction with others is guided by memories and expectations from their internal model which influence and help evaluate their contact with others."

Secure Attachment Definition:
From "How We Love" by Milan & Kay Yerkovich
“Secure Connectors..., are comfortable with reciprocity; balanced giving and receiving in relationships.They can describe strengths and weakness in themselves and others without idealizing or devaluing. Skilled at self-reflection, Secure Connectors are able to clearly and easily communicate their feelings and needs.“
(www.howwelove.com)

Check out Ephesians 4 NLT... do you see the attachment theory language in this passage?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4&version=NLT

Insecure Attachment Types from "How We Love" by Milan & Kay Yerkovich
www.howwelove.com

Avoider:
Coming from often affection-less homes that value independence and self-reliance, the Avoider grows up learning to just take care of themselves. The catch? They restrict their feelings and needs so they can deal with the anxiety of having little to no comfort and nurturing from their parents.
-I am usually “fine,” and when something bad happens I try to get over it quickly.
-In my family growing up, we rarely discussed personal concerns.
-I’m usually happiest when others are happy and don’t want a lot from me.
-I don’t really think about my own feelings and needs very often.
-I don’t really miss my spouse or family if I’m away from them.
-I need my space.

Pleaser
Pleasers usually grow up in a home with an overly protective or angry critical parent. Pleaser children do everything they can to “be good” and avoid troubling their reactive parent. These kids don’t get comfort: rather, they spend their energy comforting or appeasing their troublesome parent. As adults, Pleasers tend to continually monitor the moods of others around them to keep everyone happy. Eventually, they can become resentful and break down or leave the relationship.
For most (or all) of my childhood I could have been described as “the good kid.”
I feel very upset if someone is upset or annoyed with me so I am good at “keeping peace.”
I seek connection and avoid rejection by anticipating and meeting others’ needs.
Conflict makes me uneasy and I prefer to deal with disagreement by giving in or making up for it and quickly and moving on.
I have difficulty confronting or saying no and sometimes it makes me less than truthful.

VACILLATORS
Growing up with an unpredictable parent, Vacillators’ needs aren’t top priority. Without consistent parental affection, they develop feelings of abandonment. By the time the parent feels like giving again, their child is tired of waiting and too angry to receive. As adults, Vacillators are on a quest to find the consistent love they never received as children. They idealize new relationships, but then get tired of it once life (and the relationship) gets less than perfect.

-I feel like no one has really understood what I need.
-I experience internal conflict and a high level of emotional stress in relationships.
-At times, I find myself picking a fight and I’m not sure why.
-I’ve always been especially sensitive and perceptive and can tell when others are pulling away from me.
-Others have said they feel like they’re walking on eggshells around me.

CONTROLLERS
Controllers need control to keep the vulnerable, negative feelings that they experienced in childhood from surfacing in their adult lives. Having control means having protection from the feelings of fear, humiliation and helplessness. Anger is the one emotion that is not vulnerable, so intimidation and anger are often used to keep control. Control may be highly rigid or more sporadic and unpredictable, but Controllers rarely realize the real reason they need to be in charge.

-No one protected me from harm when I was growing up, so I had to get tough and take care of myself.
-Life has taught me to either “be in control” or “be controlled.”
-People would probably describe me as intimidating.
-I prefer to solve problems on my own.
-I need things to be done a certain way or I get angry.
-I have few feelings about my childhood except I’m glad it’s over because I wouldn’t go back.

VICTIM

Kids survive a chaotic home environment by trying to “stay under the radar”, making themselves as invisible as possible. They’ll hide and appease, learning how to escape into their own heads to lessen the pain from their angry, violent, chaotic parents. Victims lack a sense of self-worth or personhood and are often anxious and depressed. Rather than engage, they’ll resort to just “going through the motions” in order to get by. Victims may emulate their childhood home environment by pursuing a relationship with a Controller. When children are involved in such a relationship, the Victim may even inflict their suppressed anger on their children whenever the Controller is not present.

-Growing up, I experienced a great deal of intense anger and stress from a parent or parents.
-I’m used to chaos and calm makes me anxious because something bad is always just around the corner.
-If I spoke up more and had stronger opinions, my spouse (or other significant relationships) would be even angrier.
-I feel like I’m just “going through the motions” and I’m tired and out of energy.

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Episode 27: Our third episode in our Attachment arc starts discussing how attachment affects us in adulthood.

We talk "Internal Working Model"
"A cognitive framework comprising mental representations for understanding the world, self, and others. A person’s interaction with others is guided by memories and expectations from their internal model which influence and help evaluate their contact with others."

https://www.simplypsychology.org/bowlby.html

And how we see our own IWM, and how our relationship with God affects it.

Psalm 139:5
You go before me and follow me.
You place your hand of blessing on my head.

There are three main features of the internal working model:
(1) a model of others as being trustworthy,
(2) a model of the self as valuable, and
(3) a model of the self as effective when interacting with others.
These beliefs of who we are, vs. how safe “the world” guides many of our interactions.

Differentiation:
Differentiation means maintaining your own individuality while in a relationship.
How do you take responsibility for your own thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and acknowledge how other's thoughts, feelings, behaviors effect you?

This gives us the ability to communicate your thoughts, feelings, behaviors honestly & lovingly to others, and not try to make them take responsibility for you, while you don't take responsibility for them.

Hugging til Relaxed
Here's a terrific was to get more in touch with your partner while also getting a better grip on yourself. It turns a simple hug into a window into your relationship and a way to improve it. Prepare yourself by taking a few minutes to slow down, relax, and slow your heart rate. Then stand facing your partner a few feet away. Get a balanced, well-grounded stance over your own two feet. Close your eyes, take a breath, and relax again. Open your eyes, and when the two of you are ready, shuffle forward without loosing your relaxed balanced position, so that you have one foot between your partner's feet. Get close enough that you can easily put your arms around your partner without feeling off balance, or pulling or pushing your partner off-balance either. Shift your stance or position as needed to be physically comfortable. Let yourself relax into the hug and remember to breathe. Lots of feelings about your partner, your relationship and yourself are bound to surface. Note your resistances but don't give into them. Afterwards, talk about the experience with your partner. It often takes several months of practice, several times a week, but you'll be amazed by the many improvements this brings. Hugging 'till Relaxed is fully described in the book Passionate Marriage.

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Today, we're continuing our conversation with Attachment Theory--or how we bond in initial relationships, and then learn to set boundaries as we grow.
Brandon will bring the pastoral perspective today.
A Review:
“Attachment” how our relationships and how we “bond” throughout our life begins with our first caregivers, and how they take care of our physical needs, soothe us when we’re stressed, and take delight in us in our childhood.

Ephesians 4 NLT
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4&version=NLT

From "How We Love" by Milan & Kay Yerkovich
“Secure Connectors..., are comfortable with reciprocity; balanced giving and receiving in relationships.They can describe strengths and weakness in themselves and others without idealizing or devaluing. Skilled at self-reflection, Secure Connectors are able to clearly and easily communicate their feelings and needs.“
(www.howwelove.com)

From the pastoral perspective, that’s what Scripture is about. Adam needing attachment, Man made in image of God. God desires union, and created us to be in union with Him. Ends with all creation caught up in this restorative movement of heaven on earth.

Romans 8-
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8&version=NLT

“…Classically, there are three ways in which humans try to find transcendence …. through the ecstasy of alcohol and drugs, through the ecstasy of recreational sex, though the ecstasy of crowds. “
Eugene Peterson

James 1:27 NLT
Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

Matthew 3:16-17 NLT
After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.”

Our work is to BELIEVE that we can be securely connected to God, even though we haven't experienced how fully we are loved yet.

Luke 5:16 NLT
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+5%3A16&version=NLT

A few practices we mentioned:
Sitting in silence, thinking about God's Love, or Presence, or something that's come up about Him in the past week.

And

While trying to pray, notice the things that "distract" you. Noticing them, and ask Jesus "what do you want me to notice?"

The Gratitude Ladder
Sit somewhere quiet.
Breathe deeply.
Notice your thoughts, and let them go.

-The Good:
Be thankful for the things that easily come to mind.
Let your heart savor & delight in those things for a few moments.
Notice the shift in your brain.

-The Bad:
Bring to mind some sort of challenging situation, that's harder to give thanks for.
Not because it doesn't feel good, but because in the midst of it, your soul is being matured & transformed.
Through this thing, something eternal is being built in you.

-The Ugly:
Give thanks for some part of you that you don't like. A habit that you want to overcome, that you judge about yourself.
Don't give thanks for it because it's good, or good for you, but give thanks that God still says yes over you. So you can say "God, how can you be so good that I can still be loved even with this habit."

Sit again in silence for a moment.
Notice your breathing.

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It’s season two, and we’re diving straight in. In this episode we cover the basics of Attachment Theory. How does the understanding of our own attachments (and the attachments of those around us) allow us to navigate our physical and spiritual relationships?

Attachment Theory: a set of concepts that explain the emergence of an emotional bond between an infant and primary caregiver and the way in which this bond affects the child’s behavioral and emotional development into adulthood.

“The way we do anything is the way we do everything” - Martha Beck

More reading on Secure vs Insecure attachment: here

‘Molecular Man’ Conan O'Brien Sketch: here

Romanian Orphans Further reading: here

Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs: Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a description of the needs that motivate human behavior. In 1943, Abraham Maslow proposed five different kinds of human needs, beginning with the most basic: survival. Physiological needs, such as food and shelter, are followed by needs related to safety. Next, there are needs of love and belonging. Fourth, humans have needs of esteem, such as the need for being respected. The final need in the hierarchy is the need for self-actualization (fulfilling one's potential). The hierarchy suggests that basic needs must be met prior to less basic needs; for example, a starving person will seek food before self-actualization

Further reading on Kegan’s Constructive Developmental Theory

Further reading on the psychologist; John Bowlby: here

Emotionally Healthy Spirituality - Book

This Cultural Moment - Podcast

Further reading on Freudian Theory: here

The Strange Situation, further reading

Daniel Tiger: Grown-Ups Come Back (Daniel Tiger School Of Parenting)

How We Love - Book

Changes That Heal - Henry Cloud

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This Season's Focus: "Identity"

Who are we, and how did we get this way?
We'll be covering the following topics:

Attachment Theory, Bonding & Boundaries in Relationships
Codependency
Understanding The Bible
Personality Theories
Cultural Awareness & Racial Reconciliation

That's what we have so far -- but we reserve the right to keep adding to the list.
We'll be interviewing some AWESOME guests to expand these conversations.

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Our first interview!
Bryan Rouanzoin's work integrating different spiritual development stages inspired our 7-episode conversation. We're excited to have Bryan, to communicate his own studies and experience in this Spiritual Development work.
See all these notes of theories & quotes that Bryan knows off the top of his head!

Bryan lives in Costa Mesa, CA with his wife Jenni, and two kids: Evie and Jude. He is a pastor on staff at Vanguard University and continues to serve alongside local church communities in teaching and worship capacities and has a unique interest in helping people explore their own developmental journey as it relates to spirituality and growth.
He is the co-founder of the The Way at Vanguard. Check out thewayofjesus.org to find out more about these spiritual practices.

He has recently released on iTunes: "Made New" from the label "From the Vine".
and Bryan's most recent music release is a collaborative project "Seek & Behold" co-written with Debrianna Cabitac.

Here's a link:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/made-new/993275143

Seek & Behold by Debrianna Cabitac
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/seek-behold/1305314140
https://open.spotify.com/album/1jejWJcOilhDiR1lbn9FVo?si=9WTv81QBTPOOR-OhgcOrPg

Erikson's Developmental Stages:
https://www.simplypsychology.org/Erik-Erikson.html

False Self/Shadow self-- the idea that we struggle through our own deficits and flaws, firstly to cover them up. the despariy between our core essense

We're so hell bent on holding onto this image of ourselves, that we, in the process, cover up and push away from our core essense that's vulnerable, open and surrender-oriented.

Phil 2:6-11
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Matthew 5-7, Sermon of the Mount.

Cynthia Bourgeault
The spiritual journey, wherever it comes from, is always the same. It always is surrender, attention and compassion.

"That first initial stage of disorientation (in spiritual development), the dark night of the soul, is a way for you to realize that what you've been pursing or finding satisfaction in is the FORM of worship with God, but not the essence, which is God Himself."
Bryan R.

Jesus is the WAY before He becomes truth, and then He becomes life.

"The practice of pilgrimage is a going forth and a returning home that enlarge the meaning of both the self and home."
Sharon Daloz Parks

Faith is living out the reality of

"God doesn't give us a list of propositions of who He is, He gives us a relationship and a character of faith that we see in the Old Testament. Who is kind, who is good. Then we meet the face of Jesus, the full expression of God."
Bryan R.

Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning
By James W. Fowler

Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development
https://www.psychologynoteshq.com/kohlbergstheory/

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We take a look at The Critical Journey theory by Hagberg + Guelich, which looks at the external + internal spiritual journey. We weave in a lot of Peter Scazzero's Emotionally Healthy Spirituality theory, and how important that perspective has been.

"You can't be spiritual mature if you're emotionally immature."
Pete Scazzero

The Critical Journey
Drawing upon this classical vision of the Christian life and drawing from the work of James Fowler’s seminal Stages of Faith, Janet O. Hagberg and Robert A. Guelich, developed a stage theory model for the spiritual journey that they call “the critical journey.”

6 stages:
First 3: the “external journey”
(1) Recognition of God—a believer first encounters God and experiences the life of faith;
(2) Life of Discipleship—one engages in the disciplines and practices of their faith;
(3) the Productive Life—one moves towards a productive and active life working for God.

Next 3, Inner Journey
What do you think it ends with?

(4) Inner journey, doubts and disappointments, loss of previous structures, church may not make sense
DESIRE LINE!
(5) Journey outward, toward others, freedom to be, no need to prove their faith or earn anything
In love, submitting to God’s perfect love
We see love is all in all
(6) Life of Love, union with God

“For most of us the Wall appears through a crisis that turns our world upside down. It comes, perhaps, through a divorce, a job loss, the death of a close friend or family member, a cancer diagnosis, a disillusioning church experience, a betrayal, a shattered dream, a wayward child, a car accident, an inability to get pregnant, a deep desire to marry that remains unfulfilled, a dryness or loss of joy in our relationship with God, a building permit denied by the community for the fourth time.”
Peter Scarzerro

“The Wall experience”, Hagberg and Guelich explain, “is the place where psychology and spirituality, converge.”

Ignatian Spirituality "Finding God in All Things"
Check out this article on Ignatian Spirituality
http://jesuits.org/spirituality

You can't be spiritual mature if you're emotionally immature.
Pete Scazzero

Matt 23:26
"First wash the inside of the cup and the dish, and then the outside will become clean, too."

John 1:1-5 (NLT)
1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,[a]
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.

With Spiritual Development, what you're going through, isn't chaos. It makes sense. Anything that brings up fear, or the unknown-- trusting God and seeking Union with HIM is what gets you through.

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Our ALMOST final episode on Spiritual Development. In times when language doesn't express fully your love for God, or pain, hurt or struggle, there's ways to continue praying without words. We look at The Dark Night of the Soul, and define the "darkness" as "unknowing" instead of necessarily "scary" (like being left alone in the dark). We look at different methods for approaching God + theology, Cataphatic & Apophatic. (The "knowing" that comes with language or the ability to describe, and the knowing that is too deep for words).

The Dark Night of the Soul

In every developmental model that we've looked at in the past few episodes (M. Scott Peck, St. Teresa's Mansions, James Fowler's Stages of Faith), they have two similar parts:
1. The Dark Night of the Soul
2. Every pattern ends with Union with God

The Dark Night is an "Unknowing" (see Gearld May's book), as opposed to "Scary" (see the original writing from St. John of the Cross in Spanish).

You can feel alive & experience God's presence, but not know what's happening, or how to move forward.

The Dark Night of the Soul: A Psychiatrist Explores the Connection Between Darkness and Spiritual Growth
by Gearld May
https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Night-Soul-Psychiatrist-Connection/dp/0060750553

Footprints in the Sand:
One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.

Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.

He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.

He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:

"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."

The LORD replied:

"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."

Author: Carolyn Joyce Carty

Cataphatic & Apaphatic: Attempting to Capture Truth

Cataphatic: truth that we can put language to. Apaphatic: truth that we have, without being able to fully describe it.

Our notions of love are so thread-bare compared to the reality of God's love, that all we can really say it "God is not hate."

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How does our view of God & His love for us change as we grow from childhood into adulthood? Looking at how our faith develops over the span of human development, using James W. Fowler's Stages of Faith. We talk a lot of attachment theory, and how we have frozen in different developmental stages in a few ways.

Debate: Who's the bigger nerd? Susette or Brandon?

You can vote on our Desire Line Podcast Community on Facebook!

The OC Supertones "Found"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMYnU_VyCM0

A Chart comparing Fowler's Stages of Faith with M. Scott Peck (see ep 15-18 of the Desire Line)

http://www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

Information on this episode was taken from this article by Rose Anne Karesh (Thank you, Rose Anne!):

https://owlcation.com/humanities/James-Fowler-and-Spiritual-Development-Stages-of-Faith

From the article:

James Fowler's Stages of Faith
Stage 1:
(3 to 7 years ) Intuitive–Projective stage in which children are beginning to be able to use symbols and their imaginations. However children in this stage are very self-focused and inclined to take very literally (and self-referentially) ideas about evil, the devil or other negative aspects of religion. The ability to sort out reality from fantasy is not well developed.

Stage 2:
(6-12 years, school age) Mythic–Literal stage in which information is organized into stories. These stories, along with moral rules, are understood literally and concretely. There is little ability to step back from the story and formulate an overarching meaning. Justice and fairness are seen as reciprocal. A few people remain in this stage throughout their lives.

Stage 3:
(adolescence to early adulthood, some people remain permanently in this stage) Synthetic–Conventional stage in which people believe without having critically examined their beliefs. Their beliefs are in what they have been taught and in what they see “everyone else” as believing too. There is a strong sense of identity with the group. People in this stage are not very open to questions because questions are frightening at this point of development. People in this stage place a large amount of trust in external authority figures and tend not to recognize that they are within a belief system “box” as their beliefs are internalized but have not been examined.

Stage 4:
(the earlier in adulthood the easier on the person) Individuative-Reflective stage in which a person begins to recognize they are in a “box” and look outside it. People in this stage ask questions and see the contradictions or problems in their beliefs. This can be a very painful stage as old ideas are now modified and sometimes rejected altogether. Some people give up on faith altogether at this point but faith can be strengthened in this stage as beliefs become explicitly, personally held. There is a strong reliance on the logic, rational mind and the self.

Stage 5:
(usually not before mid-life) Conjunctive stage in which a person who has gone through the deconstruction of the Individuative-Reflective stage begins to let go of some of the reliance on their own rational mind and recognize that some experiences are not logical or easily understood at all. The move here is from either/or to both/and; complexity and paradox are embraced. People in this stage are more willing to dialogue with people of other faiths, seeking further information and correction to their own beliefs, and are able to do this without letting go of their own faith.

Stage 6:
Universalizing stage. Very few people reach this stage, which is characterized by seeing all of humanity as one brotherhood and taking profound, self-sacrificing action to care for all humanity because of this view.

Article on Play Therapy:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/contemporary-psychoanalysis-in-action/201601/child-s-play-how-play-therapy-works

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This episode focuses on Union with God, and some history on those who have sought it and wrote about it. What do we experience in our heart, body, and mind when we're experiencing God's love and feeling united with Him?

Here's an article on mushashi proteins and how the brain chooses to actively forget something:

https://www.popsci.com/article/forgetting-actively-controlled-process-brain

Mystics, in the history of the Catholic church, saw the value of experience in relationship with God.
-Periphery
-Julian of Norwich
-Revelation of Divine Love 1395

https://catholicstrength.com/?s=st+teresa+mansions

St. Teresa of Avila
-Mansions 1-3 correspond to the purgative stage of the journey (turning from sin to virtue);
-Mansions 4-5 correspond to the illuminative stage of the journey (entering into supernatural prayer);
-Mansions 6-7 correspond to the unitive stage of the journey (spiritual betrothal and marriage).

Additionally, mansions 1-3 correspond to the active part of the journey, where the soul is conscious of its own effort, supported by grace, to overcome sin and draw closer to God, whereas mansions 4-7 correspond to the passive part of the journey, where the soul becomes aware that God is acting upon it. (Reference: Mary E. Giles, 161; and as explained by Saint Teresa herself)

Discussing our own attempts to daily prayer, the struggles, the anger that can come up when we pray.

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How do we, as Christians, transcend boundaries appropriately while maintaining our faith in who God is? In this episode, we dive into part II of our discussion on M. Scott Peck’s Stages of Spiritual Development and how we see the transition from Stage II (Boundaries) into Stage III (Tension) play throughout the bible and our lives.

Image and explanation of a Dendrite https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/dendrite
“One sign of maturity, are the thoughts that no longer occur to us.” -Dallas Willard
Romans 1

Romans 12

Till We Have Faces, C.S. Lewis
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Matthew 5:17
Paul’s Theology of Conscience 1 Corinthians 8-10 Romans 14
He set another man before them, saying, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field; which indeed is smaller than all seeds. But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in its branches."

— Matthew 13:31–32 WEB More reading on the Theory of Moral Development: https://explorable.com/theory-of-moral-development
Postmodernity: is the economic or cultural state or condition of society which is said to exist after modernity. Some schools of thought hold that modernity ended in the late 20th century – in the 1980s or early 1990s – and that it was replaced by postmodernity, while others would extend modernity to cover the developments denoted by postmodernity, while some believe that modernity ended after World War II. The idea of the post-modern condition is sometimes characterised as a culture stripped of its capacity to function in any linear or autonomous state as opposed to the progressive mindstate of Modernism. Postmodernity can mean a personal response to a postmodern society, the conditions in a society which make it postmodern or the state of being that is associated with a postmodern society as well a historical epoch. In most contexts it should be distinguished from postmodernism, the adoption of postmodern philosophies or traits in art, literature, culture and society. In fact, today, historical perspectives on the developments of postmodern art (postmodernism) and postmodern society (postmodernity) can be best described as two umbrella terms for processes engaged in an ongoing dialectical relationship, the result of which is the evolving world in which we now live.

The importance of Peck’s theory is basically seeing patterns that validate we aren’t alone. If we can understand/calibrate where we are in the process, it can help us see the world in a more dynamic way.

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How do Christians engage in drawing closer to God in a real church environment? This is a break-it-down episode, where we spend time talking more about moralism + hedonism and how we experience M. Scott Peck's Stage 2 in our lives, and in our churches.

We break down the concept of inviting God into the darkness of our shameful thoughts by asking "God, how can you be so good?" in the midst of it.

Stage 2 can be associated with high degrees of rigidity

Brandon's theory: The Anatomy of Religious Rigidity

Two ways to soothe Anxiety: Moralism/Hedonism (maladaptive coping skills) that don't help us in the long run.

People have anxiety because they have insecurity, people compensate by being rigid, because that feels like piety, piety feels like God will like us, soothes our anxiety

“In”-- am i in? What if I'm rejected? Am I fully loved, accepted, respected by you?

Looking at expectations of pastors in church--how do church members respond when pastors talk about difficult concepts or try to deal with difficult issues in the church? How do Christians engage with their pastors, and what roles to they expect pastors to fill?

Susette talks about her experience in shifting her pastors out the expectation of being close friends, or in an intimate relationship, even though the pastor-church goer relationship feels so intimate.

But anyone who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise that person at the last day. John 6:54

Integrating love into shame is a spiritual discipline, and a neuroscientific process. Inviting God's goodness into the dark thoughts that we have, instead of hiding as a result of the thoughts, can neutralize them.

Brandon invites us to an exercise: when we're angry, sad, ashamed or embarrassed, or in the darkest thought of hatred, sexual desire, etc, we can state "God, how can you be so good?". We invite "light" into the "darkness", which neutralizes it.

The Word gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it. John 1:4-5

This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7

More on: False self vs. True self

https://cac.org/the-illusion-of-our-false-self-2017-08-15/

Neuron info, with myelin sheath: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/human-biology/neuron-nervous-system/a/overview-of-neuron-structure-and-function

"One of the signs of maturity is the thought that no longer occurs to you." --Dallas Willard

Outro music:

Feel Your Love by Still Spoken featuring Soy Maulit

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This is our third episode in an arc on Spiritual Development. We look closer at Stages II and III of M. Scott Peck's Stages of Faith, and how we can navigate tensions to this journey moving towards union with God. It's important to evaluate what part of Christianity we try to protect out of fear. Our goal: "Life in the Spirit" (see Romans 8) meaning to move into union with God.

Our guest music today is: Feel Your Love, by Still Spoken
You can find it on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/track/3wWxnAjCikcl6Ug9Fymr09

Reminder of the M. Scott Peck's Stages of Faith:
Stage I: Chaotic, Antisocial
Stage II: Formal, Institutional, Fundamental
Stage III: Skeptic, Individual, Questioner
Stage IV: Mystic, Communal

Part of the dark side of stage 2 is high boundaries, but because of fear, there's no openness to tension.

Sermon on the Mount reference re: murder, adultery and divorce: Matthew 5:21

Jesus is moving the focus of spirituality out of the rules into the center of our heart, where we need God to be transformed.
If faith is not marked with compassion, and is not moving you towards openness in God, then it'll become religious and legalistic.
The point of healthy boundaries is to lead you into LIFE.

Recommended podcast on Jewish & Hebrew culture: "Stuff Jews Should Know."

Examples of Stage II to Stage III transitions in the Bible:
-Galatians 6: Paul reframing the importance of circumcision vs. being transformed into a new creation through Jesus Christ.
-Peter having a vision about allowing "unclean" foods to be eaten. (Acts 10:9-16)
-Jesus breaking sabbath laws with healing, eating grain, etc.

This transition is usually a result of suffering. These "rules" or the way that God and the world make sense based on religion until suffering happens in life, and the rules stop making sense.

Matthew 12:1
A Discussion about the Sabbath
12 At about that time Jesus was walking through some grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, so they began breaking off some heads of grain and eating them. 2 But some Pharisees saw them do it and protested, “Look, your disciples are breaking the law by harvesting grain on the Sabbath.”

3 Jesus said to them, “Haven’t you read in the Scriptures what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He went into the house of God, and he and his companions broke the law by eating the sacred loaves of bread that only the priests are allowed to eat. 5 And haven’t you read in the law of Moses that the priests on duty in the Temple may work on the Sabbath? 6 I tell you, there is one here who is even greater than the Temple! 7 But you would not have condemned my innocent disciples if you knew the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer sacrifices.’[a] 8 For the Son of Man[b] is Lord, even over the Sabbath!”

Development is a process of maturing over time, through life stages. We can get stuck in different development stages, and never move past them.

From the therapeutic perspective:
Looking at the amygdala + limbic system, the amygdala triggers "fight or flight" in our reactions. Even though in our current culture, our lives are rarely threatened day to day, we'll continue to experience life day to day as "threatening."

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom."
Viktor E. Frankl

Our guest music today is: Feel Your Love, by Still Spoken
You can find it on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/track/3wWxnAjCikcl6Ug9Fymr09

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Looking deeper at M. Scott Peck's Stages of Faith
M. Scott Peck, Stages of Faith
Stage I: Chaotic, Antisocial
-Antisocial (not caring about community or others, but only own self-interests).
Stage II: Formal, Institutional, Fundamental
-Faith is part of the person’s life.
-Can imagine this person giving a testimony in church.
-Not only is belief the TRUTH, but the TRUTH is simple.

Stage III: Skeptic, Individual, Questioner
-Life is more gray than previously acknowledged
-There’s struggle here-- questioning what you thought was TRUTH, or why it was truth.

Stage IV: Mystic, Communal
Community/relationship focused
(see Jesus: Love God & your neighbor)

Mark 12:30-31
And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

Brandon's interpretation:
I Chaos (Antisocial/Chaotic)
II Boundaries (Institutional/Formal)
III Tension (Skepticism/Questioning)
IV Union (Mystic, Communal)

We talk divorce, sex and love addiction, and how to engage in boundaries in the midst of life events that we can't control.

Christian worldview is about union with God in the midst of suffering.

2 Corinthians 1: 4-6
He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort others. When they are troubled, we will be able to give them the same comfort God has given us. 5 For the more we suffer for Christ, the more God will shower us with his comfort through Christ. 6 Even when we are weighed down with troubles, it is for your comfort and salvation! For when we ourselves are comforted, we will certainly comfort you. Then you can patiently endure the same things we suffer.

We talk about Rumspringa, an Amish + Mennonite rite of passage for adolescents.

Check out a new favorite podcast: "Stuff Jews Should Know,"

Psalm 91
If you make the Lord your refuge,
if you make the Most High your shelter,
no evil will conquer you;
no plague will come near your home.
For he will order his angels
to protect you wherever you go.
They will hold you up with their hands
so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.
You will trample upon lions and cobras;
you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet!

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There often will come a point where you have to get off the paved path. Often times it’s suffering or some sort of inner conflict, or a product of the Christian culture that we're living in today.

Every journey is different, but are there discernible patterns to the spiritual journey?
This can help us normalize our journey! We are not alone.
“It hurts to become real”
-The Velveteen Rabbit

SCRIPTURE
This development is actually normalized in Scripture
We are all being changed (2 Corinthians 3:18) What matters is becoming new creation

So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

Law-NT
Paul: law is a baby-sitter (Galatians 3:24)

PSYCHOLOGY
James Fowler Stage of Faith

M. Scott Peck
The Road Less Traveled
http://www.whale.to/b/peck1.html
-Stage I Chaotic, Antisocial
Antisocial in that it’s all “me” (perhaps Hedonistic)

-Stage II Formal, Institutional, Fundamental
Boundaries good
Dark side: very either-or, all-or-nothing. Have difficulty explaining, or comforting when experiencing suffering.

-Stage III
Skeptic, Individual, Questioner
Life is more gray than previously acknowledged

-Stage IV
Mystic, Communal
Open to God

Notice, Every pattern or theory of development we’re going to talk about today ends in some sort of “union”

It's possible, or probable to be in more than one at once. Not linear.
We may be in both or all at different times.

Exercise: In the midst of a painful thought, relationship or memory, asking God: "How can you be so good?"

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Intimacy with God is the process of Salvation -- we connect to Him more deeply through the process of Salvation. Salvation is more of a process than an "event" where our sins are forgiven.
See Hosea, Song of Solomon, Eph 5 to see examples of intimacy with God. He's created a world where we can find Him and going deeper with Him.
Paul's epistles: What God has done, who we are as a result (adopted, His children), therefore you live it out this way.
This is a big difference from "works theology" something that we've been trained to live in fear of as Protestants.

We contrast between two verses that people use to defend that "certificate" of salvation vs. walking out our salvation.

Eph 1:4-5 (NLT)
Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

James 1:26-27 (NLT)
If you claim to be religious but don’t control your tongue, you are fooling yourself, and your religion is worthless. Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you.

How does "participating" in salvation change how we live?
We talk about our anxieties about Works Theology, and how to engage in love for others in the way that Jesus prompts us in the gospels, and the way James 1 does.

Salvation is a relationship -- not something that we possess, but as a relationship that's transforming us.

12 Steps of Recovery are a process of sanctification or "working through salvation"... our behaviors towards others and in our life change as we lean in and accept that God is our "higher power".

Bianary perspective on Salvation-- how do we see Salvation as All or Nothing Thinking?

Review All-or-Nothing Thinking & Trauma responses to fight-or-flight experiences that train our brain (amygdala) to respond quickly, or fearfully.

More information on M. Scott Peck's Stages of Faith:
http://www.whale.to/b/peck1.html

Depersonalization: when we're afraid, we turn our loved ones into "things" or thing-ify them as a threat, instead of someone who we love, or who has good and bad as part of their nature.

CELEBRATE RECOVERY 12 STEPS AND BIBLICAL COMPARISONS

We admitted we were powerless over our addictions and compulsive behaviors, that our lives had become unmanageable.

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Romans 7:18 NIV

We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Philippians 2:13 NIV

We made a decision to turn our lives and our wills over to the care of God.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - this is your spiritual act of worship. Romans 12:1 NIV

We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord. Lamentations 3:40 NIV

We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:16a NIV

6 We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4:10 NIV

7 We humbly asked Him to remove all our shortcomings.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NIV

8 We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

Do to others as you would have them do to you. Luke 6:31 NIV

9 We made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Matthew 5:23-24 NIV

10 We continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 1 Corinthians 10:12

11 We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us, and power to carry that out.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. Colossians 3:16a NIV

12 Having had a spiritual experience as the result of these steps, we try to carry this message to others and practice these principles in all our affairs.

Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore them gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Galatians 6:1 NIV

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Fifth episode in an arc about Gospel & Salvation, Jesus, and the Gospels. Culture, and how we do not have a good conception for concepts of Kingship and Lordship--submission to a leader is not a quality that American culture values. We've divided the concepts of "Follow Me" that Jesus introduced to His disciples into conversion and discipleship. They're not two different things.
How do we understand salvation and what it means to be saved? Salvation is a relationship.
Reviewing the Hebrew definition of Knowing tied more to Intimacy than to Knowing "about" or observing like our concepts of knowing. Knowing in Hebrew is more about experience or encountering. We need both types of knowing to engage in full relationship with Jesus. We tend to think of Heaven as a place, instead of a relationship-- a place you go when you die, instead of abiding in a relationship with an God who saves.
Jesus, in Matthew 7, not intended to evoke fear, but to point to what saves us is relationship, not a faux relationship, or a certificate. Jesus invites us into a relationship that transforms us, and leads us to caring for the poor and marginalized. Heaven, in this sense, is being in the place where God's presence is.

Susette's method of using this concept of God's presence as a form of prayer & relationship:
1. Remember first that the Kingdom of Heaven is God's presence here on earth,
2. Then I picture God's presence being here next to me.
3. Picturing Jesus sitting next to me.
4. Talk to Him.

John 1; the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, or "tabernacle'd" among us.

Described the tabernacle and what that means from a historical & biblical context. The temple points to holiness & being set apart. The book of Hebrews is a good place to start in learning about the Tabernacle, and Rikk Watts:
https://www.regentaudio.com/collections/rikk-watts

John 1:51 Jesus is referring to Jacob naming the place Bethel in Genesis 28:10-22, where he saw the presence of God.

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Continuing episode arc around The Gospel and Salvation. If you are just joining the Podcast for this episode, you may want to start at episode 9: The Gospel & the Gospels for the beginning of this arc.

New Perspective on Paul defined, a new perspective on Paul's letters in the bible and how they've been read since the Reformation.
A quick background on why the Reformation was important, to correct the corruption at that time, an example of this being indulgences. Martin Luther also focused justification by faith alone (sola fide), faith being not earned by works, but given freely by God, once we believe.
Pendulums can swing too far, when a good correction happens. It's important for us to sit in tension in the midst of truth.

NT Wright:
"We must stop giving 19th- century answers to 16th-century questions and start asking 21st-century questions listening for 1st-century answers."

“Each generation has to wrestle afresh with the question of Jesus, not least its biblical roots if it is to be truly the church at all."

Good news: the New Perspective starts with God and the world, instead of me. We're starting to hear sermons (Mike Erre from Vox OC & John Mark Comer from Bridgetown Church in Portland)
In Act 17:16-34, Paul gives a speech on God as creator, instead of salvation for individual sins.

See this pic of the firmament:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiduJ7Ml7rYAhUHw1QKHXcpDvcQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fronaldwederfoort.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F12%2F12%2Fnasa-and-all-o-f-them-knew-about-the-firmament-and-that-there-are-waters-above-and-no-vacuum-space%2F&psig=AOvVaw1eTEfPuGMnsqa9iVxIvvsW&ust=1515013588086396

Firmament description, and how Genesis 1 comes alive when we read the bible the way the authors viewed it. An article from Rick Watts:http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/6-02Watts.html

Knowing (Hebrew): "Yada" in Hebrew means "knowing" but in an intimate sense, not just intellectually.

When we talk about "Salvation" we're talking about relationship, that we're in a vulnerable standing with another person (a human being, or with God).

Embodied participation is included in this relationship. Embodiment: our bodies matter, and we live out our salvation with our bodies.
Focusing, praying, committing, repenting in a way that includes our body in relationship with God.

Gospel: that God is redeeming the Earth and all of Creation, and SALVATION is our RESPONSE to the Gospel.

We answered our first LISTENER SUBMITTED QUESTION (yea!) about therapy, and how to search for a Christian therapist.

Please submit any question you have through https://www.desirelinepodcast.com/connect

Join our facebook group: Desire Line Podcast Community to connect to us and other listeners.

Website: www.desirelinepodcast.com
Twitter: @mydesireline and @brandonalancook
Instagram: @susette.magana.therapy and @brandonalancook

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Gospel is bigger than the "plan of Salvation" or bigger than the question of "where am I going to go when I die? Heaven or Hell?" The story of the Bible in big picture is to restore the original “Garden of Eden”, where we were able to walk with God daily, intimately, unashamed. Jesus came to restore that intimacy for all of us.
Jesus breaks down tribalism. We look at denominations, and doctrine, and how we tend to leave tension earlier than we should.
Check out the Welcoming Prayer, posted on Episode 6 post on www.desirelinepodcast.com/listen.
Contemplative prayer connected to focus, and Philippians 4:6+7.
Cultural understanding of individualized culture that we live in in the West, and using Susette's experience with her husbands family in Mexican-American culture in examples of family centered/collectivist culture that's closer to 1st century Judaism.
How have we interpreted the idea of salvation through our Western eyes, while trying to live by the Bible, who's authors do not come from a Western American perspective culturally?

“Despite its protests to the contrary, modern Christianity has become willy-nilly the religion of the state and the economic status quo. Because it has been so exclusively dedicated to incanting anemic souls into heaven, it has, by a kind of ignorance, been made the tool of much earthly villainy. It has, for the most part, stood silently by, while a predatory economy has ravaged the world, destroyed its natural beauty and health, divided and plundered its human communities and households. It has flown the flag and chanted the slogans of empire.
Wendell Berry

N.T. Wright Book: The Day the Revolution Began

Here's some video/podcast recommendations for N.T. Wright:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX1GSVR0Tdc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AukgNlAgiI

Scot McKnight: What is the Gospel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HdyhUQ3Krs

Podcast: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-n-t-wright-podcast/id447840163?mt=2

If you're interested in connecting with Susette re: online therapy (if you live in California), you can contact her here:
www.susettemagana.com/contact
www.desirelinepodcast.com/connect

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What does "heaven" mean? What does "going to heaven when you die" mean? We take a look at the Gospel, Gospels, heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven.
Is heaven a place that you go when you die? Or is the Kingdom of Heaven here? We talk about how Jesus, in the Gospels talks about His message of the Kingdom, and how His coming completes God's plan for new creation.
Both tell stories of spiritual development and how our perspective started to change when we began to study the bible in college and read through the whole thing. There was a time when Susette began to be allow herself, through invitation from pastors and professors to ask questions and change her thinking.
N.T. Wright quote: "Heaven is important, but it's not the end of the world."

The Gospel: an invitation to participate with God the King in new creation that was introduced when Jesus came, loved, taught, died, and rose from the dead, conquering death, and ascended to the Father.
Our RESPONSE to the Gospel is often viewed as the Good News itself. It's not "you accept Jesus into your heart and he forgives your sins" (which is true) but not the central message

Jesus is the King. Our response to this good news is:
Confessing: Confess our sins, recognize what we've done.
Repenting: We turn from what we worshiped before.
Believing: We believe He's the King, and new creation is here.
Following: We follow Him and engage in relationship for our life.

Cognitive theory: Piaget
https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html

Assimilation and Accommodation
Jean Piaget (1952; see also Wadsworth, 2004) viewed intellectual growth as a process of adaptation (adjustment) to the world. This happens through:

Assimilation
– Which is using an existing schema to deal with a new object or situation.

Accommodation
– This happens when the existing schema (knowledge) does not work, and needs to be changed to deal with a new object or situation.

Equilibration
– This is the force which moves development along. Piaget believed that cognitive development did not progress at a steady rate, but rather in leaps and bounds.
Equilibrium occurs when a child's schemas can deal with most new information through assimilation. However, an unpleasant state of disequilibrium occurs when new information cannot be fitted into existing schemas (assimilation).

Equilibration is the force which drives the learning process as we do not like to be frustrated and will seek to restore balance by mastering the new challenge (accommodation). Once the new information is acquired the process of assimilation with the new schema will continue until the next time we need to make an adjustment to it.

Jean Piaget's concept of adaptation

Example of Assimilation
A 2-year-old child sees a man who is bald on top of his head and has long frizzy hair on the sides. To his father’s horror, the toddler shouts “Clown, clown” (Siegler et al., 2003).

Example of Accommodation
In the “clown” incident, the boy’s father explained to his son that the man was not a clown and that even though his hair was like a clown’s, he wasn’t wearing a funny costume and wasn’t doing silly things to make people laugh.

With this new knowledge, the boy was able to change his schema of “clown” and make this idea fit better to a standard concept of “clown”.
New information includes disorientation, because it shakes up what we've always thought was truth.

Quote from Frank Viola, "Pagan Christianity"
“As stated previously, the sinner’s prayer eventually replaced the biblical role of water baptism. Though it is touted as gospel today, this prayer developed only recently. D. L. Moody was the first to employ it.
Moody used this “model” of prayer when training his evangelistic coworkers.

But it did not reach popular usage until the 1950s with Billy Graham’s Peace with God tract and later with Campus Crusade for Christ’s Four Spiritual Laws. There is nothing particularly wrong with it. Certainly, God will respond to the heartfelt prayers of any individual who reaches out to Him in faith. However, it should not replace water baptism as the outward instrument for conversion-initiation.

The phrase personal Savior is yet another recent innovation that grew out of the ethos of nineteenth-century American revivalism. It originated in the mid-1800s to be exact. But it grew to popular parlance by Charles Fuller (1887–1968). Fuller literally used the phrase thousands of times in his incredibly popular Old Fashioned Revival Hour radio program that aired from 1937 to 1968. His program reached from North America to every spot on the globe. At the time of his death, it was heard on more than 650 radio stations around the world.”

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The Gospel + The Gospels
Brandon gets to talk about his training and perspective on this foundation of the Christian faith. We talk culture, understanding our own culture, and stepping outside of how we grew up to see how others see us, and expand our worldview.

Greek vs. Jewish worldview, and how these two are different, and bring different culture perspectives to how we read the Bible.
-ex: faith is something that you "embody," not just something that you "think."
How we are influenced by Greco-Roman thinking, shown in examples of hymns "I'll fly away."

Eternal life (heaven) begins now. If you believe it starts "when you die" then you're missing out on what Jesus can bring us now.

Susette talks about how she began to deconstruct what she had been taught in church in her first years of life, and how bible authors using language from Roman culture, to be provocative, brought her a lot of frustration and fear when she first learned it. It felt threatening to the idea biblical inerrancy to her when she first studied it.

Jesus as a revolutionary. He proclaims the Kingdom of Heaven in Mark as His first message.

The American Gospel: I'm a sinner, I can't save myself, I need a savior. Jesus died for my sins, if I invite Him in my heart, and believe he's the savior, my sins will be forgiven and I'll go to heaven when I die. All of this is TRUE, but it's not the full story of the Gospel.

We reviewed the 8 elements of the Gospel from Matthew Bates.
1. Jesus the King Preexisted with the Father
2. Jesus took on human flesh, fulfilling God’s promises to David
3. Jesus died for sins in accordance with the scriptures
4. Jesus was buried
5. Jesus was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures
6. Jesus appeared to Many
7. Jesus is seated at the right hand of God as Lord
8. Jesus will come again as judge (51)

Bible:
Book of Mark
Romans 1:1-5
1 Corinthians 15:1-4

References:
(You can check out all these authors on YouTube/other podcasts, too)
Our Father Abraham by Marvin R. Wilson
The Day the Revolution Began, by N.T. Wright
King Jesus Gospel, by Scot McKnight
Salvation by Allegiance Alone, by Matthew Bates

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Continuing conversation about how we experience Shame in our lives, how it effects our perspective of how we're loved by others, and how any shame we experience is NOT truth. Brandon explores scripture and the biblical narrative of shame, starting with Genesis 3 ending with Revelation 21 about how shame is something that God of the Hebrew Bible, and Jesus of the Gospels saw in people, and sought to love us in a way that helped us fight it. Jesus came to set us free to the original "nakedness", our ability to be vulnerable without fear and shame.

"Shame" in the bible is often explained as "covered" in shame. It's something that we feel at our root that we don't belong in relationship, and can lean into other behaviors or postures, some that are hedonistic, some that are moralistic (rigid religiosity, addiction, pornography, etc.).

Guilt or conviction are good motivators for transformation, but shame is not. If you're experiencing shame, it's not the voice of Jesus.

The Desire Line: Out of our deep desire for him, we're walking towards Him--maybe not in the way that we've always been taught.

Please subscribe on iTunes, and subscribe, rate, and review us. It really helps. You can check out the exercises we discuss on this podcast on our website: desirelinepodcast.com/listen, under Episode 8.

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Shame is our topic this episode -- and how to begin building resilience against it. Check out the beginning of our arc on these topics with Trauma (Ep 3), Anger (Ep 4) Anxiety (Ep 5&6) and now Shame.
We define shame from Brene Brown:
Shame is an intense painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love or belonging.
And Curt Thompson "The Soul of Shame"
The feeling of: “I am not enough; there is something wrong with me; I am bad or I don’t matter.” The fear that something we’ve done or failed to do, an ideal that we’ve not lived up to, or a goal that we’ve not accomplished makes us unworthy of affection or love.

12 Categories where Shame is Triggered:
-Appearance and body image
-Money and work
-Motherhood/fatherhood
-Family
-Parenting
-Mental and physical health
-Addiction
-Sex
-Aging
-Religion
-Being stereotyped or labeled

We first learn that we're worthy of love or affection from our first caretakers (typically Mom and Dad). Bonding, oxytocin chemicals, skin-to-skin contact and how getting our physical needs met meets our emotional needs for the first fear years of life.

Brandon mentioned this article on Romanian Orphanage & Attachment Story: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/romanian-orphans-subjected-to-deprivation-must-now-deal-with-disfunction/2014/01/30/a9dbea6c-5d13-11e3-be07-006c776266ed_story.html?utm_term=.f2cf5a79a370

If this doesn’t happen, it will result in shame (at the very least).
If we have difficult relationships with our first caretakers, it can lead to this sense that “I can’t attach” or “I don’t belong” or I’m not worthy of love,” “I’m invisible."

Brene Brown's Exercise:

Thinking about shame from a physical body perspective: fill in the blank.

I physically feel shame in/on my ________________
It feels like ______________________
I know I’m in shame when I feel _______________
If I could taste shame, it would taste like ________________
If I could smell shame, it would smell like ________________
If I could touch shame, it would feel like _________________
Considering these Statements:

I want to be perceived as ____________ and ____________
I do NOT want to be perceived as ______________

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How does anxiety tie in with our FOO (Family of Origin) or COO (Church of Origin). Brandon talks about his Obsessive Compulsive symptoms that he felt tied to his family background.

Panic Attacks and how we (and others) define anxiety -- do you "fight" anxiety? Or do you feel the need to allow it, without fighting it in order to move through?

How did your FOO and your COO effect your ability to calm yourself down? Secure attachment with our first caretakers (i.e. Parents) is a way that we experience safety, security, & comfort. Power and Intimacy (Imminence & Transcendence), in balance, are what we need as kids to feel safe, and it's what we need in our relationship with God as adults to manage adult stress.

Grief & Lament helps us to manage and label what was missing in our lives in order to move into a place of accepting what we needed in our FOO, and how to move towards wholeness.

12 Steps from Celebrate Recovery: https://www.celebraterecovery.com/index.php/about-us/twelve-steps

We talk bible-- the experience of experiencing God in both imminence and transcendence, like in Exodus 33. Susette reviewed how this passage brings her a sense of comfort and wonder in the midst of anxiety.

Towards the end of the episode, our personality differences show about our experience with God (in a way that we both like very much.)

Check out desirelinepodcast/listen.

In episode 6 post is our Anxiety Ladder Exercise. The Welcoming Prayer is part of Ep 5 post.

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Anxiety is our topic in these next two episodes. This is part of series we've done on Trauma, Anger, Anxiety and Shame. We start with a free association game on anxiety-- there's so many words that we use to describe it! We describe our own anxiety that morning.

  Brandon tells a story of a panic attack that he experienced after a surgery. His experience taught him empathy and compassion for those who experience anxiety and panic, but also learned that for him, anxiety is something he needs to accept in the moment, without fighting it.

Therapeutic perspective on anxiety:
We talk road rage: a typical Southern California conversation.
Different words for anxiety, stress, agitation, frustrated. Physical symptoms of anxiety are endless. Tension in muscles, limbs, forearms, chest pressure, chest pain, heart races, headaches, stomach butterflies, stomach pain, intestinal problems, flushed face and neck, etc, etc.
Anxiety effects our thinking in different ways: we catastrophize, overthinking, thoughts going around and around, all-or-nothing thinking.
We discuss all-or-nothing thinking, or binary thinking, and how our culture is increasingly binary.

Spiritual perspective on anxiety:
Acknowledging that God is sovereign and all powerful when we are feeling powerless, isolated and lonely, or helpless. Anxiety can push us to not settle, with a lack of peace.
How to talk about techniques, prayer, engage with God, but not in a way where there's a "formula" or a "rain dance" to bring peace from God. We want to sit in the tension of not being able to control God while we need Him to experience peace. Living by the Spirit should be our goal, not trying to just "do what the bible says," but to live WITH God in relationship.

How do we resist the shame we feel when we're anxious, that we're not good enough Christians, but instead, use our anxiety as an invitation to acknowledge our need for God?

Check out Rhett Smith's book, "The Anxious Christian."

The scriptural opposite of Anxiety is peace (Shalom). Shalom: Nothing lacking, everything made whole.
How do we dwell in peace?

Two ways that we deal with anxiety: Moralism (doing the right thing to earn our way out) and Hedonism (avoiding the emotion, and numbing our way out).
Brandon explained The Parable of the Two Sons (or the Prodigal Son), and how neither hedonism and moralism will help us to understand the heart of God. We discuss our own perspective on whether we lean towards hedonism or moralism. Susette talks her own journey down her desire line, and her history of feeling like a "good" or "bad" Christian and the shame that comes with that.
Brandon identifies imminence and transcendence,

Bible passages mentioned:

Phil 4:6-7
Matthew 6
Romans 8:6

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Anger is good, or can be good for us, because it points to things that are "under the hood" or emotions that are deeper than we sometimes realize. Vulnerable emotions like being sad, anxiety, fear, worry, and shame can sit underneath anger. Brandon + Susette talk about some of their experiences with their own anger. How does anger effect your parenting, and how to kids experience their parents anger.

Trauma is a great way to introduce the concept of anger in our body/brain (limbic system, amygdala, hippocampus, anterior cingulate gyrus), check out Episode 3: Trauma + Hope to hear more about how our brain functions re: trauma, anger, + anxiety. Anger is a secondary emotion. We act with anger to express those underneath emotions: shame, fear, sadness. We can control the anger better than we can the sadness/fear. As we talk about how anger is accepted and received in different cultures-- do you agree with this? How does your cultural background experience anger?

From Eph 4: The emotion of anger is just the emotion. The behavior of anger is what we need to be careful of.

Resentment vs. Rage. The feel of tension underneath the surface can make it hard to tell what's happening for people that we love.

Taking offense should not be part of the Christian life. It allows the angry feeling to take root in you, instead of moving through you.

We have to fight shame sometimes to look "under the hood" with our angry feelings. Using Romans 8:1, feeling free of condemnation + shame and invited into the whole truth of why we respond the way that we do.

Grief + Lament can be part of the process to move through anger. Lament is acknowledging anger, sadness + grief in God's presence, in order to acknowledge reality of our world + lives.

Practicing Empathy is a way to understand the grace that's already given to us (unconditional love from Jesus, and power that He gives us through the Holy Spirit), and to remember that someone that you're feeling angry towards also deserves the grace and love from Jesus (again, see Eph 4).

Assertiveness, aggression, passive-aggression, and passiveness are ways to respond to anger, but the goal is to be ASSERTIVE (care about the other person, and care about yourself). Truth in love in your relationships. We all have work to do in the balance of finding truth in love.

The Desire Line: When I'm angry, ask: What am I really seeking? What do I need? What's underneath this resentment, anger, offended feeling?

What kind of comfort, leading, or direction do you need in order to look at your anger + the emotions underneath? What practice can you try to be ready to look at the truth of what's happening for you?

Bible passages used:

Eph 4:26
Psalm 4:4
Eph 4
Romans 8:1

Check out www.desirelinepodcast.com, under the "Listen" tab to download an exercise called "Welcoming Prayer."
The Welcoming Prayer is one way to TRUST Jesus in the midst of wanting these fundamental needs.
It prompts us to invite (or welcome) Jesus into the parts of our lives where we crave Affection/Love; Security + Safety or Being in Power (Control).

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In this episode, we focus on trauma, including definitions, how it effects us, and how it effects our brain & levels of stress. We talked about how to "ground" using your senses (what you see, taste, smell, touch, hear), and how paying attention to 3 or more of your sense can help anxiety symptoms.
Neuroscience is proving now what Jesus told us: Prayer brings us healing.
We reviewed PTSD (Posttraumatic Stress Disorder) vs. how we respond to traumatic events in a normal way.
Trauma symptoms are connected to memory, and how our brain helps us to make sense of memories. Parts of the brain tied to trauma: amygdala and hippocampus, inside of the limbic system of the brain. As we pray and meditate on scripture, we can change how our brain responds to past trauma, & reduce our stress hormones that flood our body (cortisol & adrenaline).
Brandon talked about how the bible is FULL of trauma & people who experienced traumatic events. Cain & Abel, war, rape, Paul seeing many people murdered. Jesus experienced His own trauma, stress, & redemption. The Parable of the Two Sons (or the Prodigal Son), which points to us using moralism or hedonism to deal with difficult things in our lives.
Check out our website: www.desirelinepodcast.com, and sign up to receive our Prayer of Examen resource, to help the transformation that comes from renewing your mind (see Romans 12:2).
Twitter: @mydesireline
Facebook: Desire Line Podcast Community

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Part 2 of our conversation on Therapy and Transformation. How do we heal, change and grow? We begin to discuss the neuroscience (!) of the brain and prayer, how stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline affect us, and how practicing specific thinking changes how our brain functions. The more we meditate and focus on good, the more peace we feel. Scripture tells us to change the way we think.
We reflect, we contemplate, we behold God's love and presence, and then we are transformed.

Two therapy theories:
EMDR: Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing
And CBT: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy

How much does "knowing" what's wrong (or being able to describe it) help it to improve?

Bible references:
Philippians 4:8
Romans 12:2
Philippians 4:6
2 Corinthians 3:18

We have a resource to send you through email that can help you along your Desire Line: Prayer of Examen. Susette recommends that you use this if you need extra support during the next few episodes on Trauma, Anger, and Anxiety.

Head to our website: www.desirelinepodcast.com, and sign up on our email list, and we'll email you a "Prayer of Examen" card to use during prayer time, or throughout your day.

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How are we transformed? How do we experience healing, peace, or freedom? How does our relationship with Jesus change as we stop doing what we've always been told, and begin to see Jesus in relationship above all else?
Susette talks Therapy 101: Unconditional Positive Regard (or unconditional love), intimacy, feeling understood, confidentiality, trust in therapy space. Each host tells stories from their childhood church experiences, they talk similarities about 90's Christian culture.
God's unconditional acceptance of us (love & grace that He's given us first) is what transforms us.
The more you practice empathy, the more natural it becomes.
This conversation will continue in Ep 2.

Resources:
Brene Brown Video:
http://www.susettemagana.com/single-post/2016/11/16/Practicing-Empathy

David Seamands "Healing for Damaged Emotions."

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We explore what a desire line is, and how we'll use this metaphor in future episodes to speak about our real experience as Christians -- not the RIGHT way to live or think, but the way that we actually experience our relationship with Jesus, and how this relationship has changed our life.

The Desire Line: Recent Episodes

Susette Magana, M.A., (Therapist) & Brandon Cook, B.A., M.St. (Pastor)