Self Defense Gun Stories

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 343 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy?

David- Hi, Rob. I’ve been getting ready for match season with some dry fire and reloading. I’m also planning to attend a new instructor course soon.

How about you?

Rob- Just the usual, but I missed a chance to shoot at the range.

We didn’t get a new message this week. I do want to thank Roger for his continued help. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast.

David- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. As alway, the links to our news sources are at the episode webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First story- Are you armed in public?You’re sixty years old. You are out before dawn to get some money from an ATM in your neighborhood. You turn to a noise behind you. A man throws his bike on the ground and walks toward you. He pulls a gun from his pocket and tells you to give it up.

You have your firearms owners ID card and your carry permit in your wallet. You have your firearm on your hip. You shoot at your attacker and he shoots at you. You’re wounded on your back and on your arm. You run to a local gas station and ask for help. They call 911 while you put pressure on your arm.

You give a statement to the police. They take your firearm from your pocket. EMS transports you to the hospital. You are listed in stable condition. Your attacker was declared dead. You are not charged with a crime.

David- I like that our defender recognized that Chicago is a dangerous place to live. I like that he got his permits and owned a firearm. Thank goodness he went armed this morning. He had his head up. He recognized a threat. He defended himself. He ran to safety and asked for help. He tried to treat his own wounds and then gave a statement to the police.

Rob- I had a question about going out before dawn. Was our defender on his way to work, or did he think that fewer people were on the street so he was safer?

David- We don’t know, but there are no safe times of day when you can go out unprotected. It has long been the conventional wisdom that crime occurs mostly at night, but that isn’t necessarily so. The bottom line is that none of us have a crystal ball to know in advance when we will need to be armed…so safest choice is to go armed at all times.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do if they needed cash?

David- Try to avoid open-air or stand alone ATMs. Indoor ATMs are usually available in convenience stores and markets. Also consider getting cash when you check out at the grocery store. An easy “life hack” is to just buy a pack of gum or other small item, and then use the self checkout to get your cash. That might be harder, as grocery stores have closed in big cities like Chicago, but it is a safer option if available. At any rate, try to find an indoor ATM if at all possible. If you must use an outdoor ATM, try to have a friend with you to watch your back while you conduct your transaction.

Rob- This bad guy expected a shooting and found into a gunfight. How should we get our gun out when the bad guy already has a gun in his hands?

David- That’s always going to be a high risk move, but if you feel you have no choice, consider ways to distract your attacker, and be prepared to move.

Dropping or throwing an item can serve as a distraction for a moment, giving you an opportunity to draw your defensive firearm. One self defense instructor I trained under years ago taught a strategy he called the “survival rap.” This is really little more than using speech to engage the attacker’s brain, hopefully creating enough lag to create an opportunity to fight back or to escape. (And escape is the best option if available)

But once you draw, move so that you’re not where the attacker expects you to be. Now the attacker has to track you with his eyes, and then with his firearm. That is hard to do. Another option would be a surreptitious draw, by positioning your body where the attacker cannot see you draw, though this type draw is usually done more slowly when you have more time. Carrying in a coat or jacket pocket can also provide an opportunity to have your hand on your gun without the attacker seeing it. As always, you should practice these sorts of draws and presentation first under the eyes of an instructor, and then stay sharp by continuing practice with a blue training gun, or an unloaded firearm following the rules of gun safety.

Rob- When do your students learn about those defensive moves?

David- This is more advanced training which occurs after the initial concealed carry class.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on?

David- It’s a good start. Our second story happened in Reading, Pennsylvania.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender was very smart to get his FOID card, carry license and to carry a gun with him while walking the streets. It doesn’t matter whether he was in Chicago or Anytown USA.
All elderly people are targets because they can’t move as fast and they aren’t as stable on their feet as a younger robber. Anyone who looks and acts like “prey” is going to be “eaten”!
This defender was alert. He reacted when he heard a noise and saw he was going to get robbed. He knew he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender drew his gun and fired multiple shots and he neutralized the bad guy even though he got shot himself.
The defender not only stayed in the gunfight and won, he was determined enough to live that he walked a block to get help even though he was wounded. If he had just stopped where he was and sat down he may have bled out before help arrived.
The defender gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Walking the empty streets in the dark of the early morning makes you a target. If you have to go out at that time to get cash or go to work, take your gun as well as a friend with you, take a flashlight, get your cash from a store not an ATM.
Getting and using cash is very dangerous. Criminals see someone flashing a roll of cash and they pounce. Use debit cards or credit cards because they are safer and usually you can get your money back if there are fraudulent charges or they are lost.
The defender should have also had a cell phone with him. If he had a phone he could have stayed at the scene and called for help to come to him.
According to the news report, he left his gun at the scene. This left him defenseless while he was seeking help and some kid could have picked it up too.
The defender was very lucky that the robber on the bike didn’t bring another bad guy with him. Did he know how to engage multiple bad guys?
Did the defender know how to draw his gun while he moved to avoid being shot? Did he know how to use distractions to give himself a few moments to draw his gun? Did he know how to shoot from a retention position since the robber was probably close enough to him in order to grab his gun?
Did the defender carry his gun in a hip holster or in his pocket? Wearing a coat makes drawing your concealed gun harder and definitely slower to draw. Some good guys carry a small revolver in their coat pocket as well as a larger handgun under their coat. They walk with their hand on the gun in their pocket and they fire the small pocket gun while it’s still in the pocket. This gives them time to access their larger gun with greater capacity on their hip.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home?You and your roommates are at home. It is six in the evening when you’re surprised to see a stranger enter your apartment. You don’t know him. Your roommates don’t know him. You ask him to leave. He gets offended and attacks you and your roommates. You grab your gun and shoot your attacker. Now he runs from your apartment. You and your roommates call the police. You put your gun away before they arrive.

Everyone stays at the scene and gives the police a statement. They find your attacker. They transport him to the hospital to treat his wounded leg. Your attacker is charged with criminal trespass and several counts of assault. You are not charged with a crime. It looks like your attacker was looking for a drug dealer and got the wrong address.

David- I like that someone was armed. I like that they tried to use words before they went to guns. They attempted to defend themselves without using deadly force before eventually resorting to using their firearm. The defenders stayed at the scene and called 911 for help. The victims met the police with empty hands. They also gave a statement to the police.

Rob- I know there is more you want us to do.

David- And you can guess what it is. I want you armed even when you’re at home. I want your doors and windows locked. Ideally, I want all of the adults to be armed. I also want you to have a lawyer to call before you fill out the police report. Pennsylvania has a castle doctrine law, which helps these defenders justify deadly force. You need to know if you have castle doctrine in your state, and what that means when it comes to using deadly force in self defense in your home.

Rob- This defense is harder than it sounds.

David- This situation is way harder than it sounds. Let me lay it out for you. A guy shows up unannounced and won’t leave. He attacks one of your roommates. A second roommate joins in to try and push the guy outside. You’re armed and you’re afraid the guy might have a weapon, or perhaps he is simply stronger and is overpowering you or your roommate. You have to be careful to position yourself so that you don’t shoot your roommate in the process, so it is a very difficult situation.

Another consideration is OC, or pepper spray. This can be an option in confrontations which don’t justify deadly force, but exceed your ability to counter with empty hand skills.

Rob- When do you learn not to shoot at the bad guy from 7 yards away like you’re at the shooting range hitting a paper target?

David- We start that with marksmanship and the four safety rules. We reinforce it during the concealed carry class. We focus on those issues with a combat handgun class. It is also called beyond concealed carry.

Rob- Where are we heading next?

David- Our third story happened in Atlanta, Georgia.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender asked the intruder to leave.
- The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder attacked him and his roommate.
The defender had a gun that was nearby and he was able to shoot the attacking intruder.
The defender stayed at the scene and did not chase the intruder.
The defender called 911 and put his gun away.
The defender and the roommates gave statements to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Were the doors and windows locked? How was the intruder able to surprise the defender and his roommates?
- The defender asked the intruder to leave but the intruder attacked instead.
Pennsylvania is a Castle Doctrine state where the occupants do not have a duty to retreat. There has to be a threat of major bodily harm, death, kidnapping or rape in order to use deadly force. Consult a lawyer or take a class on the use of deadly force.
Fortunately, the defender had a gun and it was either on his body or nearby.
The defender shot the intruder but only hit him in the leg. If you are justified to shoot, you need to neutralize the bad guy, not wound him. If you don’t neutralize him he might continue his attack. Best practices is to get two hits to the upper, center chest.
Could all of the occupants have and carry their own guns?

Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

JPFO.orghttp://jpfo.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed in public?It is just after midnight. You’ve asked your daughter’s ex-boyfriend to leave. He continues to shout and to threaten your family outside your home. The ex-boyfriend threatens you again and draws a gun from his pocket. He shoots it into the air. You present your own firearm and shoot him until he runs. You and your family retreat inside the home and call the police.

Police arrest your attacker and he is now in the local jail. You are not charged with a crime.

David- I’m glad that mom was armed. I’m glad she tried to diffuse the situation by asking the daughters ex-boyfriend to leave. She recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when the attacker drew his gun and shot it into the air. She defended her family from that threat. She stopped shooting when the defender ran. She and her family retreated to a safe place and then called the police. They met the police with empty hands and then gave the officers their statements. That is a good start.

Rob- You called it a good start. What else do you want your students to do that wasn’t mentioned in the news report?

David- We win every fight we avoid. While she did well by retreating to a safe place after the shooting…why not do that before the shooting starts? Let’s file a restraining order the first time the boyfriend issues a threat. Then you can stay inside behind a locked door, and then call police and let them deal with it. I also want any adult who can be legally armed to do so. I also want you to have a lawyer to call so you have help filling out your police report.

Rob- Where do gun owners learn that? It isn’t in basic marksmanship. It isn’t in their concealed carry class.

David- We talk about avoiding a gunfight in our concealed carry class. We mention restraining orders. We talk about the legal use of lethal force, but we certainly can’t cover all of it in one class. This is where having a lawyer who is educated in self defense law comes in handy. Ideally, your family learned all that, and then how to defend each other in a class on team tactics.

Rob- Defending a group of people in the dark or the dim isn’t easy.

David- I’m concerned that your family is running away from the attacker and they might run into your line of fire. It is your responsibility to not injure innocent people as you defend your family.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?David- Our fourth story took place in Española, New Mexico.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender was armed when she was engaged in an argument with her daughter’s ex-boyfriend.
She tried using verbal commands multiple times.
She only fired after the ex-boyfriend pulled a gun and fired into the air.
She shot the ex-boyfriend until he retreated.
She and the family retreated to inside the home and called 911.
She put her gun away and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Instead of continuing an argument, try de-escalating the situation. Tell the ex-boyfriend to leave and come back later when everyone has cooled down.
- If you don’t already have a restraining order, get one. It won’t stop an attack but it establishes a legal papertrail.
If you can’t de-escalate, avoid. Walk away. Retreat to the house and call 911 from behind locked doors before the situation turns into a gunfight. Stand away from the door and any windows so you can’t be seen from the outside or harmed if he breaks down the door. Go to a defensible position behind cover/concealment.
If it’s dark outside, turn on exterior lights and turn off the interior lights.
If the argument or attack continues, make the bad guy come to you.

Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?You and your wife are at home in bed. It is just after four in the morning when you both hear something in your garage. Given that you’re both in your seventies, it was quite a noise to wake you up. You grab your gun and both go to see what is happening. You see an intruder in your garage. You tell him to leave. He attacks your wife and knocks her over. You shoot the attacker. You both retreat into the home and your wife calls 911.

You put your gun away before police arrive. You both tell the police where you saw the attacker. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene. Police know your attacker. He has over 11 prior arrests for burglary and drug charges.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- This couple decided that they needed a gun for armed defense. It sounds like both homeowners paid attention to the bump in the night. Good for them. They worked together. They shouted that they were at home and that they were armed. The armed defender shot the attacker when his wife was attacked. He stopped shooting when the attack ended. They retreated into the home, but stayed near the scene and called for help. They also told some of their story to the police.

Rob- Again, now you’re shooting near your partner to stop an attack.

David- Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m glad that the homeowner fell down. That may have gotten her out of the way so the defender could shoot.

Rob- Was this a lethal threat that justified using lethal force?

David- Given that the defenders were in their 70s, anyone who starts throwing punches at them is bringing lethal force, and an elderly defender is unlikely to be able to physically overpower a 28-year old career burglar.

The news story says their garage and their home were damaged by the break in. That sounds like they locked their doors and windows. Good for them. If you have a garage that is connected to your home, make sure that the interior door is locked as well. That is another barrier that a home invader has to overcome. I’m more worried about you being hurt than I am about the thief taking your lawn mower. Grab your gun and your flashlight. Turn on the lights and call 911. I’d be even happier if you were both armed. I’d also prefer that you not go looking if you believe someone is in your home, if you can avoid doing so. It’s better to barricade yourself in a defensible room and call police.

For bonus points, have a motion activated light in your garage and at your doorway.

Rob- Is there anything else you want to add?

David- I want you to call your lawyer so you win both the criminal defense and the civil defense. I noticed that the civil suit laws in Louisiana where you live, Rob, just got better.

Rob- Give us four years and we might catch up with Georgia.

David- I hope so.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defenders paid attention when they heard a noise at night. Don’t ignore warnings.
The defender grabbed his gun when he and his wife went to investigate.
The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed.
The defender shot the intruder when he attacked his wife.
The defender and his wife retreated back into the house and called 911.
They put the gun away and gave statements to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- New Mexico has Castile Doctrine law. That means that there is no duty to retreat in the event of a home invasion.
- How did the intruder get into the garage? Were the doors and windows locked.
- Motion-detecting lights and cameras are a very good deterrent.
Unless you and your partner are both very well trained and armed, “clearing a house” is very dangerous. You don’t know how many intruders there are, where they are and if they are armed. In this case, the defender’s unarmed wife tried to help investigate the noise and ended up getting attacked and knocked over. She could have become a hostage.
If there are no other family members elsewhere in the house, best practices says: retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the door, call 911, turn off the lights and take a defensive position from behind cover or concealment. If the intruder breaks through the door then shoot multiple shots. The door becomes a “fatal funnel”.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest articles cover changes in the NRA management, the Uvalde report, and gun rights under attack in Virginia…and the insanity of gun control in general. I’m also planning to attend the NRA Annual Meeting in Dallas this year, for the first time in a few years. Come find me and say hello.

Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

David- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 342 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy?

Candy PetticordCandy- Hi, Rob. I’ve been teaching in Ohio and taking training at WOFT in Florida. How about you?

Rob- Life is good. I’ve been carrying and dry practicing every other day. I was listening to some neighbors talk about firearms. People give a lot of bad advice.

We received a new comment on iTunes (is 202,368) Nerdly said he likes the way we break down each self-defense situation, and he likes our guest instructors. He gave us a five star rating. Thank you, Nerdly

I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. Someday soon, all this can be yours.

Candy- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Houma, Louisiana.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?You are at home asleep in your bed. It is 5 in the morning and you’re woken up by the sounds of someone downstairs. You grab your gun. You go to the top of the stairs. Your intruder tries to climb the stairs and you shoot him. He runs back outside and you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the police a brief statement. Police search the area. They collect descriptions and security video from your neighbors. The police identify a suspect and go to his house. An armed woman comes out of the house and is arrested by police. Police find your intruder hiding under a mattress. EMTs take him to the hospital. He is treated for a graze wound to the head.

Your intruder is charged with one count of simple burglary and held on an outstanding warrant for violating parole. His girlfriend is charged with simple burglary, obstruction of justice, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon.

You are not charged with a crime.

Candy- I like that the homeowner thought about protecting himself and then bought a firearm. He kept his gun where it was quickly accessible when he needed it. He heard something at night and responded to the sound. He grabbed his gun before he went to investigate the noise.

Our defender moved to a position of defensive advantage at the top of the stairs. That is brilliant. The defender shot the intruder when the intruder came up the stairs. Our defender then stopped shooting when the attacker ran away. Our defender didn’t chase the bad guy down the street. He stayed at home and called 911 for help.

It sounds like our good guy stayed on the call with 911 until the police arrived, and then he met the officers with empty hands. He briefly described what happened.

Rob- That sounds like a good job?

Candy- It is a very good job, but there are a few small things we can do to make it into an amazing job. The good news is that they don’t cost much.

Make sure your doors and windows are locked. Consider putting safety film on the side windows near your doors. Put motion activated lights near your doors. Since you sleep upstairs, add a motion detector with a chime downstairs.

Use a bedside rapid access safe to store your gun at night. Have your cell phone on charge next to your small safe.

For bonus points, have a light at the bottom of the stairs that you can turn on from the top of the stairs. You want to see your attacker while he can’t see you because you’re hiding in the dim.

Stairs are a pain in the rear end when you’re tired, but they are a wonderful place to defend your family. It takes a squad of men to move one defender off the top of the stairs, but only if you practice. Do you hide behind the left, the bottom, or the right side of the top landing? Work with through the problem at your house and find out.

You might want to shout that you’re armed and that you’ve called the police.

Rob- There are a lot of little skills hiding inside what you said.

You want your students to learn to live with a gun in their home.
To learn how to use cover
To learn to shoot in low light situations
To know what to say if there is an intruder in the home.
To know the laws in your state and understand the duty to retreat.

Candy- Yeah, that is more than what we teach in our firearms safety class or concealed carry classes. Keep coming back, and we’ll teach you everything we know!!

The duty to retreat has the caveat that you don’t have to retreat unless you can do so safely. Since you’re probably moving to a position of greater risk if you move from the top of the stairs, you are best to stay where you are.

Rob- Where would I get to practice moving to cover and shooting around it?

Candy- IDPA matches are a great place to practice moving to cover and shooting around barricades. In fact, that’s one of the main purposes of the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) matches – To teach shooters how to properly handle their firearms in defensive situations and in various environments.

Taking one of my advanced training classes is another great option and you will have the benefit of one-on-one or small group attention and instruction.

Lastly, you can join us when we host a Guest Instructor at our facility. Every Guest Instructor at Northpointe Training is invited because I have personally trained with them and I consider them one of the best in their field.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender was aware and he responded to a noise on the first floor of his home.
The defender had a gun and took it with him when he investigated the noise.
The defender fired on the intruder when he encountered the intruder on the stairs.
The defender stopped shooting when the intruder retreated and he did not chase the intruder.
The defender called 911, put his gun away when police arrived and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- This incident took place in Louisiana where Castle Doctrine is the law.
The defender did not have to retreat like he would if he lived in one of the twelve states that still have “Duty to Retreat” laws.
It’s critical that gun owners know the “Use of Deadly Force” laws in the state where they live because they vary widely. Ignorance of the laws can get you a jail sentence.
Even in a Castle Doctrine state, best practices states that gathering your family to a defensive room, locking and barricading the door, turning out the interior lights and preparing to defend the door from cover or concealment is much safer than trying to “clear” your house alone.
Standing at the top of a stairway is using good tactics. Stairways, hallways and doorways are “fatal funnels” which are much easier to defend than standing in an open room.
How did the intruder get into the house? Did he break in or were the doors and windows left unlocked?
Intruders look for homes that give them easy access and where they can hide while they are breaking in. Use motion lights, trim your trees and bushes near the house and add hurricane film to any glass that can be reached on the first floor. Also apply the film to all of the glass on your doors and any windows within reach of door locks.
Add security striker plates on the door locks and use screws long enough to engage the wood studs for both the striker plates and hinges. Make your house too much trouble so the intruders will move on.

Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on?

Candy- Let’s proceed!! Our second story happened in Memphis, Tennessee.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home?Your husband is having an affair. You put his possessions on the front porch for him to pick up. It is dark outside when he husband arrives. He tears down the security camera on the front porch and then uses the camera to smash a window at the back of the house. You’re armed. Your husband enters the home and attacks you. You run out the front door. Your attacker follows you. You shoot him and now he stops chasing you.

Your neighbors come out and ask what is happening. You shout for them to call the police. You put your gun away and give a statement to the police when they arrive. You show the police your husband’s clothes, the broken camera, and the broken window. EMTs take your husband to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to the knee. News reports are not clear if our defender was treated by the EMTs. She is not charged.

Candy- Domestic issues are difficult because there is often a lot of history between the attacker and defender.

I like that she locked the doors and windows. That left evidence of the forced entry. I like that she retreated so it was clear that the attacker brought the fight to her. I like that she defended herself and then stopped when the fight was over.

Does a person have the right to break into his own home? You can argue that all the husband’s possessions were already outside the home so this was a personal attack and gaining entry to the home was not about recovering personal property. To prove that point, the husband did attack the wife once he gained entry to the home. The defender fled, so the husband clearly instigated the attack.

The defender had a tool that worked at a distance. She is at a disadvantage if her attacker is close enough that he can grab her. She stopped the threat and then stopped shooting. I love that she shouted for her neighbors to call 911.

Rob- What else do you want your students to do?

Candy- While a restraining order will not stop an attack, it will demonstrate to the court that the husband was in the wrong when he came to the home. That can potentially save you tons of money in attorney’s fees. If you feel threatened or have been threatened, I highly recommend you make the time to file a restraining order to help establish a paper trail.

Shout that you’re armed and have called the police. Shout “Stop, or I’ll defend myself.” You want not just “eye” witnesses, but also “ear” witnesses. You also want to call 911 when you hear glass breaking at the back of your house. If you have a domestic abuser, then you should have a panic button on your phone so you don’t need to waste unlocking it and then dialing 911, especially when you are fearing for your safety or your life.

Domestic attackers often want to get close to the victim during their attack. That means you have to learn how to shoot without extending your firearm out in front of you where someone else can grab it. That is called “shooting from retention” and it is another skill you can learn through my advanced training classes.

Since the situation is already documented via the restraining order, I would highly recommend having a deputy present when your husband moves out.

Rob- This defender had to shoot as she was moving away from the home and being chased by her attacker. When would your students learn to shoot on the move?

Candy- This is an advanced skillset that would only be pursued after the student had exhibited a strong foundation of safely handling their firearm.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender’s windows and doors were locked. She also had a camera. Unfortunately, the camera was mounted so low that her husband could reach it and use it to break a window. Did the defender change the locks on the doors?
The defender tried to keep the husband at a distance by using commands and also a gasoline container.?? Unfortunately, these efforts failed.
The defender tried to leave the house but she was pursued by the husband.
The defender fired on the husband until he stopped attacking.
The defender shouted for the neighbors to call 911.
The defender put her gun away when the police arrived and she not only gave them a statement, she showed them critical evidence of the attack.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender should have gotten a restraining order on her husband if she had time.
The defender was armed and either had the gun on her body or nearby when her husband arrived to get his clothes. The defender should have asked a few friends or neighbors to stand with her if she knew that her husband was coming over for his clothes. There’s safety in numbers whether the friends are armed or not.
Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position? Did the defender have any non-lethal options available?
Could the defender have dropped the husband’s clothes off somewhere else, like at one of his relative’s homes so she would not have encountered him? Emotions run high in these situations and the less contact the better.
Could the husband and wife have met at a police station to give him the clothes?
Did the husband know that his wife had a gun? Did she warn him that she did?
If the husband was the one having the affair, why did he attack his wife?

Rob- Where are we going for our third story?

Candy- We’re headed to Denison, Texas.

Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation.

Second Amendment FoundationSAF https://www.saf.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed in the afternoon at home?It is about 4:30 on a Monday afternoon when you hear someone knocking at your door. The news story isn’t clear if the door was unlocked and the intruder walked inside or if you opened the door to talk to them. The stranger pushes you out of the way and walks into your home. You shout for him to stop. You try and push him back outside. The stranger hits you with a hammer. You shoot your attacker. Now he stops hitting you.

You step back and call 911 for help. Police and EMTs arrive. You put your gun away. EMTs transport your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if your injuries required treatment. You are not charged with a crime.

Candy- Wow. Who would have thought that you’d get attacked at home in the middle of a work day afternoon.

It sounds like our defender was armed. I like that. The defender tried to use words and hands before he went to firearms. I like that too. Our defender used his gun when he had to, and stopped using his firearm once the threat had ceased. Good job.

He called the police and asked for help. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- The fight only lasted a few seconds. I don’t want it to even last that long if I’m getting hit with a hammer. Candy, when do you talk to your basic firearms class about carrying a firearm on their body at home?

Candy- They ask about it during class. We talk about the follow-up classes they can take once they know firearms safety and have solid basic marksmanship skills.

I want to point out that this is another example of close quarters armed defense. I’m surprised that the defender wasn’t injured. If you are hurt, then make sure the EMTs treat you and then go to your own doctor for a follow up evaluation as soon as possible but no later than the next day. Those documents are evidence that you were defending yourself from an attack.

Rob- There is a school of instruction that says don’t talk to the police. How will the police know that the hammer is evidence of an attack and not something you were using for home repair if you stay silent?

Candy- You want to briefly describe what happened and point out evidence. Leave the details for the report your lawyer submits to the police.

Rob- I need a lawyer even though I was attacked in my own home?

Candy- Yes you do. You need a self defense attorney on retainer, or you need self-defense insurance which will usually provide you with a self-defense attorney via a special Member’s only phone line.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender either had a gun on his body or he had it nearby when the intruder pushed his way into the home.
The defender tried to use verbal commands and he also tried to push the intruder out the door. When those actions didn’t work and the intruder started hitting the defender with a hammer, the defender shot the intruder.
The shooting stopped when the intruder stopped hitting the defender with the hammer.
The defender stepped back to gain some distance and then called 911.
The defender put his gun away and gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Your doors and windows should always be locked. Don’t open the door unless you know and trust the person on the other side.
Don’t stand in front of the door in case the attacker shoots through the closed door. Stand aside or use a nearby window to answer your door. Make sure you can’t be seen from the outside.
- A hammer is a deadly weapon. No different than a knife, club or a gun.
The Tueller Drill applies to clubs and hammers as well as knives. If you don’t know what the significance is to this drill, take a class or get an instructor to explain it to you. Remember, don’t just stand there and wait for the attacker to arrive – MOVE!
If an attacker is close enough to use a contact weapon, you must know how to shoot from a retention position. That takes training and practice. You also need to know how to shoot with your non-dominant hand in case your dominant hand/arm are injured. Do you know how to do a reload with only one hand? Again, this is taught in advanced training classes.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Candy- Our fourth story took place in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work on a Saturday?You’re working in a high end jewelry store in the middle of Chicago’s Magnificent Mile. It is just before noon and you see a customer come in and walk around the store. He stops near the exit and starts punching a jewelry display case over and over again. You have your Illinois carry permit. You’re carrying concealed at work today. You present your firearm and shoot the robber several times. He stops trying to smash the display case and falls down. You stop shooting. The robber gets up and runs outside.

You stay inside the store. You ask if anyone else is hurt. One of the store employees calls 911 for help. You stay at the scene and put your gun away. You give the police a statement and show them your paperwork. You also show them the security video of the robber when he was inside the store and outside the store. You’re taken to the local police station to give a statement to detectives.

Later, you found out that the robber ran up the stairs to the train tracks and fell into a train car. He was arrested and taken to the hospital for treatment of gunshot wounds to the buttocks and stomach. You are not charged with a crime.

Candy- I like that our defender was armed. I like that he called for help and stayed at the scene and spoke to police.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Candy- The news story doesn’t say that the thief threatened anyone. He just tried to steal property. You are in the difficult position of showing that your use of force was the safest thing to do.

The jewelry store worker in this case was not a defender of life but of property. This theft took place in Chicago, not Texas. Texas is the only state I know of that allows the use of deadly force to protect property and even then only under certain circumstances.

Considering how liberal the city of Chicago is, the jewelry store worker might be charged with aggravated assault or even attempted murder. The wounded thief will probably sue him in civil court.

This gun owner might not have had his concealed carry permit since he wasn’t carrying the gun in public, but only carrying it on his employer’s premises. No matter where you carry, you need to know the law. We now have 28 states that have constitutional carry laws where you don’t need a permit to carry in public. You absolutely need a class to learn what you should and should not do with a firearm in the situations you’re likely to face.

Particularly at work where you’re more likely to face a non-lethal threat, please carry a non-lethal defensive tool, such as pepper spray, with you. The FBI states that it is five times more likely that you will need a non-lethal tool than a gun.

Rob- Do I have a duty to retreat when someone is stealing from me?

Candy- In most states you do. In some states the value of the property is important in that you might be allowed to use force including lethal force if the crime is a felony. That varies from state to state.

Rob- What do you tell your students?

Candy- I tell my students that if it’s not worth my jumping into a tank full of hungry sharks to retrieve an item, it is not worth me drawing my firearm or perhaps even getting involved.

As always, we have to ask if there was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to an innocent party. If the answer is no, then it isn’t a gun problem. Could it have been a gun problem as the large man hit a woman who walked through the store’s main door which was right next to the robber, Yes it could have, but that is speculation rather than something we observe.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- This is a prime example of what a concealed license carrier should NOT do.
- The jewelry store worker in this case was not a defender of life but of property. This theft took place in Chicago, not Texas. Texas is the only state that allows the use of deadly force to protect property and even then only under a very specific set of circumstances.
The jewelry store worker had a concealed carry license from Illinois which requires a 16-hour training course.
Nowhere in the summary story nor in the news report did the thief threaten anyone. He just tried to steal property.
Considering how liberal the city of Chicago is, the jewelry store worker might be charged with aggravated assault or even attempted murder. And since he voluntarily violated the law, many of the legal defense insurance companies probably won’t cover his legal expenses. Even if the police or DA decide not to charge the jewelry worker, the thief that he shot absolutely will sue him in civil court and most likely win.
This type of situation is why concealed gun carriers should always have a non-lethal weapon available. The FBI states that it is five times more likely that you will need a non-lethal weapon than a gun.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Learn the difference between theft and robbery. Theft is a crime against property, whereas robbery is a crime against a person. This bad guy was a thief not a robber.
You can only use deadly force to save innocent lives, not property. Learn the laws concerning the “Use of Deadly Force” for the states where you live and any state you travel to. “The Law of Self-Defense” by lawyer Andrew Branka is an excellent book on that subject.
Carry pepper spray or a baton as well as a gun and/or knife.
Concealed carriers are not the police. It’s not your job to protect property.
In many states, a concealed carrier can legally present their gun and point it as a threat to prevent a thief from engaging in a property theft. Pointing a gun is a “use of force”. But pointing your gun and shooting at a thief trying to steal a car is a “use of deadly force” which is not allowed.

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Candy- Look for me at the Akron-Canton, Stark & Summit, & Cleveland-Parma Chapters of A Girl and a Gun. My training company, Northpointe Training, is located in the fabulous Parma Armory Shooting Center located in Parma, Ohio.

Rob- After you look at Candy’s articles and her schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Candy- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 341 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. I know you’ve been traveling a lot.

Amanda SuffecoolAmanda- Hi, Rob. I’ve been in Florida at the Ambassadors’ Academy. And then Kevin & Sarah Sona’s 2A Freedom Fest

How about you?

Rob- I was overseas for a week. When I got back, I dry practiced and went to the range. I noticed my inconsistent shooting from lack of practice.

We received a new rating and review on iTunes (367,201) Buzz loves the way we tell the stories and then explain what we might do in their place.

Nathan gave us a thank you and said the stories were eye-opening. He wants us to keep up the good work.

Dwayne sent in one of the stories we used.

Thank you Dwayne, Buzz, and Nathan. I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week. We’re still looking for listeners who volunteer to write or edit this podcast. Someday soon, all this can be yours.

Amanda- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We’ll look at a few recent examples. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Fresno, California.

Rob- First story-Are you armed at home?It is just after 10 on a weekday morning. You are at home with your two small children. Your wife calls your cell phone. She says a neighbor saw three strangers run onto your property. The neighbor called her thinking she was at home. You check your ring doorbell and see three men who ran into your garage. News stories aren’t clear if you called the police or if your wife did.

You grab your shotgun. You open your garage door and shout get out, get out, get out. One of the intruders dives for the ground. The other freezes. The third one runs away. Police arrive a minute later. You lower your shotgun when the police arrive.

The robber who is standing up runs out the garage door. The robber on the floor is arrested by police.

You give the police a statement. They tell you that the three robbers were driving a stolen Mercedes and being chased by police after an armed robbery. The police were searching for them after they abandoned the Mercedes nearby. The police found the robber who was standing in your garage. They arrest him. The robber who ran when you entered your garage was found next door. He wouldn’t come out so they sent a dog in to get him.

You are not charged with a crime. You are glad your small children aren’t hurt. Your neighbor calls to see how you’re doing.

Tag- No Shots Fired

Amanda- This family and their neighbors worked together to protect their children. They met their neighbors and had a good relationship with them. They installed a few security cameras. When a neighbor saw something unusual, they called the mom and the mom got the needed information to her husband who was at home. The news report isn’t explicit, but I assume the robbers were in the garage because the garage door to the house was locked.

I also like that the homeowner had a firearm and was comfortable using it.

All in all – the family had a well rounded and solid plan for defending their home and more importantly, their loved ones.

I like that the homeowner used verbal commands. He told the robbers what he wanted them to do. Shouting get out, get out, is pretty clear. Unfortunately, it didn’t work. Our good guy didn’t chase or shoot at the robbers who ran away. The defender called 911 and asked for help. He also put his firearm away when the police arrived.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Amanda- It is possible that there was a reason to go into the garage, but usually I want my students to stay away from an attacker. Distance is your friend. There is no urgency to go looking for an intruder. Stay put and let the police look for them.

I like that the homeowner said go away, but having a shotgun pointed at you sent a stronger message than his words. One of the robbers did what he thought was best, in an effort to not get shot. Another took his chances that running was better than staying put. It did not work out for any one of them.

Let’s say you have small children at home. You see strangers in your garage. Your doors are locked. The first rule of defense is don’t get shot. That means you go and grab your gun. You get into a defensible position and then you get the police on the way.

Remember that the goal is to keep your kids safe rather than protecting the lawn mower and the case of beer that is in the garage.

Rob- When do you tell your students about that?

Amanda- We’re always answering questions. The class called self-defense in the home is where they form a home defense plan. One of the benefits of a class is we can learn from other people’s choices. You can see what other people did and decide if that fits your family in your home. Just the act of thinking about it ahead of time adds to your defensive layers.

Rob- A long gun is effective, but what if the homeowner was at one end of the home away from his gun and the robbers broke into the middle of this home?

Amanda- That is exactly why most of us choose to have a concealed handgun with us. Pants on, gun on. Then you don’t have to wonder if you can get to it in time. A handgun may not be the best defensive firearm, but it is a good compromise for most of us.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on?

Amanda- Before we move on, I want you to know that holding someone at gunpoint is hard. We teach people how to do it, and there are ways to do it wrong that put you at risk. I compare it to having caught a tiger. You can’t trust it, even for a second. Many times it’s better for the homeowner if the bad guy runs away.

Now let’s go to Las Cruces, New Mexico.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender had a camera and a gun. He realized that he and his children were in a potentially immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender checked his Ring camera and grabbed his gun.
Either the defender or his wife called 911.
The defender tried verbal commands.
The defender did not pursue nor shoot the bad guys that ran away.
The defender lowered his gun when the police arrived.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Self-defense is about problem-solving. These situations happen very quickly and they can have deadly results. Having a plan, using situational awareness, tactics, distance, cover, concealment and various weapons are all tools that we use to solve a problem.
THE PROBLEM: The defender was at home with (2) small children when he was notified that he had (3) trespassers in his garage. Were they armed? Were they dangerous? What was their intent?
THE DEFENDER’S SOLUTION: He confirmed that the bad guys were there using the Ring camera, 911 was called and he grabbed his shotgun. So far so good. But when he opened the garage door to engage the bad guys, he had no idea where they were, whether they were armed or not and how desperate they were. There was nothing in the garage that justified his walking into a gunfight. This defender not only put himself in danger but he also put his (2) small children in jeopardy. If he was shot, who would protect the kids?
BEST PRACTICES SOLUTION: The #1 rule of self-defense is DON’T GET SHOT! Don’t put yourself or others into a position where people get shot or injured unless you are saving a life. After 911 was called, he should have gathered the children into a defensible room, locked and barricaded the door then prepared to defend from cover or concealment. Use the door as a “fatal funnel”.
ADDITIONAL TRAINING: Holding a bad guy at gunpoint is very dangerous. Knowing how to do it is a critical skill that requires knowledge and training. If you don’t have the training, don’t do it. Also, do you have the training and the equipment to treat a gunshot wound?

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?You’re standing next to your car in a business parking lot. It is about 5 in the afternoon when You see a policeman approach a homeless man who is standing in front of a business. The homeless man stabs the police officer. The officer yells and falls. You reach into your car and grab your gun. You shout for the attacker to stop. The attacker advances toward you and you shoot him. He falls. News reports aren’t clear what you did with your gun.

You run up to the officer and use his radio to call for help. Police and EMTs arrive quickly. You step back but remain at the scene. EMTs transport the officer.

You give the police a statement about what you saw and what you did. The attacker is declared dead at the scene. Later, you find out that the officer died in the hospital. His attacker had a criminal history including domestic violence, kidnapping, failure to appear in court, and repeated drug use. Police get security video from the businesses nearby. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- Yikes. You see a policeman being attacked and what should you do. If you haven’t thought about it ahead of time then you’re going to stand there with your mouth hanging open as the policeman is stabbed again and again. Our defender decided that he needed to have a firearm with him as he drove. That helps too. Again, the defender tried verbal commands. In this case they worked, sort of. The defender used his firearm when he faced an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable attack. He used the policeman’s radio to get help and he stayed at the scene.

Rob- What else do you want your students to do?

Amanda- I want you to have your firearm with you all the time. This citizen was lucky that he was near his car and not near the crazy man with a knife. Depending on luck is a bad plan.

I can’t tell if using verbal commands in this case was a good idea or a bad idea. I don’t think we know enough to decide.

Rob- What are the arguments on each side?

Amanda- There is a family member you love being attacked. You already have the legal justification to shoot and you don’t have to wait and issue verbal commands while your loved one is stabbed three more times.

Rob- And what is the other argument?

Amanda- Maybe shouting for the bad guy to stop was all it took for the murderer to look at you and move away from the officer. Your words prevented the officer from being stabbed again. Maybe the murderer was kneeling next to the officer and you thought that was a hard shot. With the bad guy standing and moving away from the officer you have a clearer shot with less risk of accidentally injuring an innocent party.

Rob- What else do you see?

Amanda- I want you to have basic trauma care training and materials. If your spouse is stabbed I want you to know how to keep them alive until EMTs arrive.

Now that I’ve given out homework for the week, our third story happened in Fullerton, California.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender had a gun near him and he responded when he saw a police officer getting attacked.
The defender tried using verbal commands but they failed.
The defender shot the attacker while he was being rushed. Perhaps he knew about the Tueller Drill since the bad guy was stopped before he was able to complete his attack on the defender.
The defender stayed on the scene, radioed for help and gave a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- According to www.handgunlaw.us, New Mexico law allows loaded handguns concealed in your car without a permit. This defender had his gun in his car instead of on his person. “Pants On, Gun On” is always best if you can. What would have happened if the defender was 25 feet from his car when he saw the attack? Would he have had time to get to his gun?
Learn about the Tueller Drill and how to use that information in a real fight. Remember, if someone is running at you, you can either step aside or start running away from the attacker in order to get more time to react. DON’T JUST STAND THERE- MOVE!
Did the defender know how to stop the police officer from bleeding out? Did he have a tourniquet or chest seal? Take a class and keep a trauma kit in your home and your car.

Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership

DRGOhttps://drgo.us/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?You work as a security guard. Today, you’re standing in a strip mall jewelry store. It is about about noon on a weekday when you see three men get out of a car that pulled up outside the store. The car doesn’t park. The three men who got out are all wearing masks and they are carrying pistols in their hands. They start to walk toward the jewelry store.

You present your firearm and shoot at the robbers. They run back to their car, shooting at you as they run. The news stories aren’t clear if you called 911 or if someone in the store called them. Neither you, nor store employees, the store customers, or any bystanders outside the store are injured. You give a statement to the police when they arrive.

There is extensive news coverage of the event, but that doesn’t include the store security video. The owner says that jewelry stores are robbed because the jewelry is so easy to sell for cash. You were supposed to meet with the store owner today and talk about extending your employment and asking for more money. They seemed to like you before the attack. They certainly like you now. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- We have to stop and explain. A security guard is not a police officer. He does not have arrest powers. He doesn’t have a squad of guys who come running when he calls on the radio. He is a civilian with some training and a cheap blue uniform.

The guard saw a robbery unfolding. Good for him that he was doing his job rather than playing with his phone. He reacted which tells me he had a plan. We don’t know if he was inside or if he was already standing outside the store. We know he was outside the store when he started shooting at the bad guys. He didn’t chase them after arriving at the shooting location. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- What else can we learn here?

Amanda- Ideally, the security guard is wearing clothes that you’d see on a customer or on an employee in the store. We want the staff and the guard to train together. The staff knows to drop to the floor when the guard yells “threat” or whatever their training word is. We want a panic alarm that calls 911 with one touch.

We want to hit our intended target with our first shots. Let me repeat. We want to hit our target the very first time. That takes training and practice. We also want to look at the store so the security guard has some cover when he defends the customers and staff.

I want every business owner to have a plan. You move the customers to safety. You check on them and then tell 911 what you need.

I want your store employees to be armed as well. There are lots or reasons why a single armed guard is a weak plan. Some stores who want high security use a revolving door so they can’t be rushed by a gang all at once.

Rob- Are there security consultants that can help convenience stores, jewelry stores, and marijuana dispensaries?

Amanda- There are consultants, and there are business groups who share what they’ve learned in the area. Depending on your business and your budget, there is help out there for you and your business

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The security guard was armed and alert. He noticed the (3) attackers with masks and guns.
The defender recognised an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and reacted.
The defender stayed at the scene and provided a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Ideally, the security guard should not have been in a uniform. That just puts a target on his back. Working in the showroom in plain clothes or being concealed behind a wall is much more effective.
- Was the guard wearing a bullet-proof vest?
- The guard fired multiple shots at (3) bad guys and didn’t hit any of them. Every bullet he fired has to hit someone or something.
- Did the guard fire on the bad guys while they were still spread apart outside of the store or did he wait until each one of them came through the door and use it as a “fatal funnel”? Tactics are more important than firepower.
- Did the guard use any cover or concealment?
Did the guard have the equipment and the training to stop the bleeding from a gunshot wound to himself or others?
Once the shooting was over, did the guard move everyone to the back of the store, out of sight and lock the doors? Sometimes the bad guys come back and they bring their friends.
Did the store have a plan in the event of a robbery? Did everyone know where to go and what to do? Was the plan rehearsed? If the first plan doesn’t work, what’s plan B? What would the store personnel do if the guard was shot?
What would have happened if the robbery took place during the guard’s lunch break? Does he stay in the store or go elsewhere? Who covers for him? What if he calls out sick?
If the store had a revolving door or a second door in a narrow breezeway, that would restrict the traffic flow to only one customer at a time. That makes it easier to defend.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?

You are waiting at an auto repair shop. Your 12 year old son is with you. You hear gunfire from the back of the repair shop. Your son grabs his head and falls down. You hear screams from inside. You see a man with a gun shooting at people inside the shop.

You have your Pennsylvania concealed carry permit. You’re armed today. You present your firearm and shoot at the attacker. Now he runs. You reholster your handgun and check on your son. News reports aren’t clear if you called 911, but a lot of customers did.

You and your son stay at the scene. You identify yourself to the police. EMTs take one of the mechanics to the hospital. Your son is treated for a graze wound at the scene and released. The officers say that the mechanic was the intended target and your son was struck by a stray shot.

You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- This is the opposite extreme of a security guard at a jewelry store. He somewhat expects and is prepared for bad things to maybe happen. You’re going to have your car worked on and you take your son with you. You expect nothing. Unfortunately, a criminal decides to shoot the place up while you’re there and you have to defend your son and other innocent parties. Wow.

I’m glad our defender was licensed, trained, and armed. Well done. AND the big thing is here, does he take action to stop the shooting or render first aid to his child? He recognized it was time to shoot and he did. Hard as it is, you have to stop the threat first, THEN render first aid. He stopped the killer and then took care of his son. He stayed calm, working with EMT’s and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- What else can we learn from this story?

Amanda- If you can, I’d like you to participate in some defensive pistol classes, then move on to competitions USPA, or IPSIC. You see people move and shoot over and over. That is the antidote to training at an indoor shooting range where you’re forbidden to draw or move your feet. If you cant do that, at least when you dry practice I want you to move to cover as you draw.

As I said before, I want you to have medical training and a medical kit.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime. The defender had his License to Carry a Firearm and he had a gun on him while going about his normal day.
The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. He drew his gun and fired on the attacker.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker ran and he did not chase after him.
The defender stayed at the scene, holstered his gun, checked on his son and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The Fight, Flight or Freeze response kicked in but the defender did not freeze. He drew his gun and returned fire. Most untrained people freeze when the adrenaline rush hits. Stress inoculation training and pre-visualization help you respond instead of freezing. This training adds to your “Library of Responses”.
Again, the first rule of self-defense is “DON’T GET SHOT”! Hopefully, the defender grabbed his son and pulled him behind cover or concealment. Staying in the open can get you killed. Move first, then draw and return fire.
Head wounds can be very bloody. Did the defender know how to apply pressure to the wound with gauze or a clean cloth?
Since the defender didn’t hit the bad guy, this was a psychological stop not a physical one. The attacker met with resistance so he decided to run off. Let him go. Protect the wounded and make sure the bad guy doesn’t return. Lock the doors. Don’t reholster your gun until the police arrive but be sure to greet them with empty hands- no gun, no phone.

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. The show is also on video at OpsLens. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject – Women for Gun rights that you can find at WomenForGunRights.org

Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV show, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage.

Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 340 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. What has been keeping you so busy?

Tony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been at shot show and then conducting Diversity Shoots here in New Jersey. I have five more planned already this year.

How about you?

Rob- We did not receive a comment on iTunes this week. Oh Facebook, Ray asked if we’d make an hour long podcast that came out once a month. I’m not sure if he wanted a best of show, or a deep dive into one or two stories. What do you think?

Dwayne sent in a news story where a 70 year old man used a muzzle loading rifle to fight off three intruders. Unfortunately, his son might have deliberately given the robbers access to the home. The link is in our show notes.

I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week.

Tony- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home in the morning?It is early morning and you’re already at work on your laptop. You hear someone banging on the front door of your apartment. You hear them shout for you to open the door. You are not expecting visitors. You grab your gun and shout for the stranger to go away. You grab your phone and call 911.

The stranger keeps hitting your door. They break the door hinges out of the door and doorframe. They tear the security chain off the wall. The door flies across the room. Your intruder enters your home and you shoot him one time. He stops. News reports aren’t clear if your attacker fell inside your home or if he ran outside. You ask the police dispatcher for help.

You put your gun away when officers arrive. EMTs transport your attacker to the hospital. You give the police a statement. You don’t know the intruder. You are not charged with a crime.

Later you find out that your 23-year-old intruder had been scammed and thought he was meeting someone for sex.

Tony- You are the fastest responder to your emergency. The defender was prepared to defend herself with deadly force if necessary.

I’m relieved that she owned a gun. I like that her doors were locked during the day. I love it that she didn’t open the door for a stranger.

It sounds like she was armed at home or at least had her firearm nearby. She got her gun and called the police as the problem developed. She stayed on the call with the dispatcher, but she put the phone down and stopped talking when it was time to defend herself.

She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She made herself available for the police when they arrived. All that sounds like a plan to me. Good job.

Rob- When did this become a gun problem?

Tony- When a stranger displays enough force and violence to break down your front door, then you face a lethal threat or serious bodily harm. That threat is immediate and it is unavoidable. That justifies both the lethal use of force and the moral use of force to stop the threat.

Rob- There is a time to talk and there is a time to shoot. When do you help your students build that line in their decision making?

Tony- Your immediate need is to make yourself safe. De-escalation is good but recognize when it isn’t working or when it’s employment is useless. I use this podcast as teachable moments for students and when I discuss armed civilian self defense.

The attacker kicking her door in wasn’t stopped by her telling him that she was armed or that she called police. Once the door was kicked open it was time for the immediate application of force.

This is a good example of that decision making since home invasions are common.

Rob- What else do you see in this story that wasn’t mentioned by the police or the reporters?

Tony- I’m glad she wasn’t next to the door when it was shoved into the house. Also, we can use a doorway to make defense easier. The bad guy is going to come through the door. That means we can aim our gun at the floor immediately inside the door ahead of time. We can pay attention to the door. We want to be far away from the door, preferably in another room looking at the door from behind something to conceal our location. I’m imagining being behind a couch or a doorframe. That makes it easier to aim because we don’t have to track the attacker with our eyes and our gun.

Rob- Our attacker shot one time. What do you recommend?

Tony- Shoot multiple times then assess if the threat stops. Firing and hitting an attacker with one round, especially with a handgun, may not stop the threat immediately. They may not have suffered a “fight stopping” hit that immobilizes them. They may not know they are even hit. They could still attack you even though you have shot them.

Don’t make a habit of shooting a particular number of times when you train. Practice firing a string of accurate shots. If you have an instructor training with you, they should tell you that the threat is down, and then you access the target and if the target is down or stops attacking you stop shooting. Some ranges have turning targets.

Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story, or should we go on?

Tony- Our second story happened in Jackson, Mississippi.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender had a plan: Her doors were locked. She had a gun. She did not open the door. She shouted through the closed door for the intruder to leave. She called 911 immediately.
- Once the door broke, she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation. She fired only after the door was breached and she stopped shooting when the intruder stopped.
She stayed on the line with 911 and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Good thing she wasn’t in front of the door when the intruder broke it down. Never stand in front of a door because you will be hit by the falling door if the hinges and the lock give out. Also you don’t want to be in the line of fire if the attacker starts shooting through a closed door. Stand to the side at a distance.
Doors are “fatal funnels”. You can cover a door from a defensive position behind cover or concealment away from the door. The intruder can’t move out of the way once the door breaks. Your gun is a distance tool. Use that to your advantage. “Distance and cover are your best friends.”
The defender only fired one shot. In this particular case that was enough to stop the intrusion. How many shots should you fire? Zero, a full magazine or anything in-between. Fire as many shots as it takes to stop the threat. The threat isn’t over until the bad guy retreats (without shooting back at you), he surrenders or he’s down and not moving. As long as the bad guy is still moving, he can continue his attack. And always remember “Don’t turn your back on anything but a corpse.” Also make sure to scan the area and make sure the bad guy didn’t bring friends with him.
The 10 Self-Defense Commands (by Roger Temple):

Scan the hands. Shoot upper chest.

Move to cover. Find the rest.

Carry a gun, phone, ammo and light.

Know the law so you do it right.

When the threat’s over the shooting stops.

Call 011. Don’t talk to cops.

Most important of all- Have a Plan!

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work?You are a contractor doing a job for the city water department. You and your co-workers are on site when a car drives up. A man gets out of the car and starts yelling. He draws a gun and starts shooting at you. You and your co-worker shoot back. Your attacker drives away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help. You put your guns away when the police arrive.

You and your partner give statements to the police. Your attacker crashes his car nearby. EMS takes him to the hospital for treatment of three gunshot wounds. He will be charged with aggravated assault when he is released. One of the news reports said the attacker knew one of the contractors. You are not charged with a crime.

Tony- I have spent time in Jackson MS. Depending where in Jackson, it can be a dangerous place.

I’m glad these men were gun owners and that they were armed at work. We can’t tell if they were marking pavement on the street or if they were in someone’s yard and chest deep in a construction hole.

They recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when someone drove up and shot at them. They defended themselves. They stopped shooting when the attacker drove away. They called for help and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Some states allow government contractors to carry. Some states encourage EMTs and firemen to carry. How do we find out what is legal and expected?

Tony- Start with your lawyer. Second best is to ask your boss and your local firearms instructor. If this is a union job, then they are involved too. You have to know the law if your routinely travel onto government property. You also need to understand that regardless of the law you are responsible for your safety and security.

Rob- What else would you like your students to think about at work.

Tony- We don’t all work in an office wearing office clothes. We might have on a work shirt and boots. We might carry a tool bag with us. That brings its own issues with concealed carry, and those issues change more with the seasons than if you’re working in an airconditioned office.

I want you to carry on your body because you might be dead by the time you run back to your truck to grab your gun that is hidden under the seat in a rapid access gun safe.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Tony- The story doesn’t mention it, but I want you to shout if you can. We want ear witnesses who heard you shout ‘stop’ before you shot back. Shouting stop doesn’t mean you have to stop moving. You can shout as you present your gun and move toward cover.

Afterward, I want you to be sure and shout for others to call 911. That means all the ear witnesses are listed at the 911 response center.

Shouting, moving, and presenting under some stress are all parts of advanced training. As ordinary as it sounds, this defense was hard work.

Rob- Where are we going next?

Tony- Our third story happened in Chicago, Illinois.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Anyone! Anywhere! Anytime!: These contractors were armed as they did their normal jobs. The attacker always has the advantage of knowing when, where and how the attack will take place. These defenders were prepared.
- Firearm Availability: It sounds like they had their guns on them when they were attacked. If your gun is out of reach, it’s useless. You could be dead by the time you go to your truck to get your gun. Reaction time is critical.
Accuracy Under Stress: The two contractors hit the attacker three times while under attack. That takes training and practice. Fortunately, the defenders moved and the attacker was not a good shot.
The defenders stayed on the scene, called 911. Met the police with empty hands and gave brief statements.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Carrying At Work. Is it legal to carry a gun at work? That depends on your state and whether you work for a private company or the government. Every state has a list of places where you can/can not carry a concealed gun. A good place to start is www.handgunlaw.us. In some states, a “no guns allowed” sign carries the weight of law and you can be prosecuted if your gun is discovered. In other states, a “no guns allowed” sign merely means that you have to leave the property if your gun is discovered and you are asked to leave. If you refuse to leave you can be charged with criminal trespassing. If you work for a private company and they have a “no guns” policy, you can be terminated for carrying on the job or sometimes in the company’s parking lot. If you work for the government (especially federal), you may be prosecuted. It also makes a difference if you are the owner of a business or just a worker (Castle Doctrine usually covers your home, your car and your business.) Check with a lawyer, take some classes or some pre-paid self-defense insurance plans let you call and ask them. KNOW THE LAWS FOR EVERYWHERE YOU WANT TO CARRY. You also have to know the magazine capacity restrictions and the type of ammo allowed. Even whether you can carry a back-up gun or not. Every state is different.

Rob- First this message from Faster Colorado.

https://fastercolorado.org/

Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?You’re at home and asleep in your bed. You’re startled awake by a crashing sound. You hear someone in your apartment. You grab your gun and go investigate what is happening. You see someone in your apartment and they rush at you. You shoot them before they reach you. You step back and turn on the lights. You grab your phone and call 911 for help. You stay at the scene.

You stay on the call with the police dispatcher. You put your gun away when the police are nearby. Police arrest your intruder. EMTs take him to the hospital with a gunshot wound to the leg. You give the police a statement. You show them your identification and your concealed carry permit.

Since you knew the intruder, this is being called a domestic incident. You are not charged with a crime.

Tony- Some crimes are random, but a lot of them involve someone who knows us. It might have been a friend of a friend of a roommate, but they somehow think that you have something they want.

I’m glad our defender went through the trouble of legally getting a gun and a carry permit in Chicago. You don’t need a carry permit to be armed at home, but it helps. Suppose you are armed at home, but you want to go to the laundry room, or the trash chute, or the mailbox, and that way you can leave the gun on you rather than having to take it off all the time as you do chores.

Again, our defender recognized that an intruder in the middle of the night is a threat. This is different than our first story since the defender didn’t recognize a problem until the intruder was already inside his home.

They defended themselves and then asked for help.

Rob- How do we store a firearm so we can get it in a hurry, but it is also secure when it isn’t in a holster on our body?

Tony- Concealment furniture is a great option that allows you quick access to your firearm while it’s hidden in plain sight. NJ Concealment Furniture was making handmade furniture and the owner started producing furniture with hidden secured compartments to hold your firearms. To open the compartments you would have to know where the secret release was located or use various access control methods that they in install in his shop. He’s no longer making furniture but that’s how I learned about keeping firearms close but out of sight. There are other companies that produce this type of furniture .

Rob- Lots of people think they are safe in an upstairs apartment. The building is solid concrete. There is a security gate outside. Do they need a motion detector in their home?

Tony- I think they do. They need it for the same reason they have a carbon monoxide detector in their home, for the same reason they have a smoke detector in their home. They might have a problem in their home and not know it until it’s too late.

Rob- How much do those cost?

Tony- From 20 to 100 dollars. Do you want the detector to text your phone when you’re not at home?

Rob- Do you see anything else?

Tony- Consider putting your flashlight in your bedside gun safe. You have to identify your attacker. Identity is a big consideration in a home invasion. On the street, the flashlight might encourage the attacker to go after someone else.

I’d normally ask you to retreat to your bedroom, but this guy just kicked in your front door, so he is going to easily kick through a bedroom door. That said, shooting him when he crosses your bedroom doorway is an easier shot and it is easier to defend legally. Those legal issues are real, particularly in Chicago.

Also, where do you keep your cell phone at night?

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Tony- Our fourth story took place in Upper Darby, Pennsylvania.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender had a plan. He took the time, the effort and the money to get a carry license in Chicago- that’s not easy nor cheap.
The defender recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the intruder broke in and rushed him. It doesn’t matter whether the defender knew the intruder or not. The defender was still under attack.
The defender stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He called 911 and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Flashlights: Either a handheld or weapon-mounted flashlight should be part of everyone’s home defense system. Your gun, an extra magazine or ammo, a flashlight and your cell phone are the essential items for your “go bag”. Using a flashlight to identify your intruder and assist in aiming your gun is critical. Don’t shoot at shapes, shadows and sounds. Know what your target is and what’s beyond it.
Best Practice for a Home Invasion: If you hear a strange noise- don’t investigate! Trying to clear a house by yourself is very dangerous. Call 911 and stay on the line with them. Retreat to a defensible room. Turn the lights off in that room. Put some furniture in front of the locked door. Take a defensive position off to the side of the door. Get behind some cover or concealment and cover the door with your gun/flashlight with your finger OFF the trigger. Do not shoot until the door is breached.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you drive?You are sitting in your car. It is after midnight and a white car drives by. That car knocks the side mirror off your car. You drive after them to get a license plate number. The white car stops and a man gets out of the back seat. He has a gun in his hand and walks toward you yelling for you to get out of your car. You are being carjacked.

You have your concealed carry permit in your wallet. You have your personal handgun in a holster on your hip. The news isn’t clear if you get out of the car or remain inside. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He shoots back and runs to the white car. They drive away. It isn’t clear when you put your gun away and if you called 911.

A police officer nearby hears the shots. He asks you what happened. You tell him about the car, the mirror, and the carjacking. The officer puts out a description of the white car and the robbers. You show the officer your identification and your carry permit.

Police follow the white car and catch two of the three robbers. One of the robbers is taken to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound. The white car was stolen yesterday. You are not charged with a crime.

Tony- I like that our defender had a gun because that might have saved his life. I like that he shot when he saw the lethal, immediate and unavoidable threat. I particularly like that he hit a moving target in dim light.

Rob- What would you like your students to do in this case?

Tony- Don’t cause a twenty-thousand dollar legal problem to solve a 200-dollar auto parts problem. Don’t chase strange cars after midnight. Call the cops. For the price of the mirror, you could buy a video camera for your car.

I know it is tempting to sit in the car as it warms up, but you’re not safe there. Dress warm enough that you can get started even when the car is cold. I don’t know what to do about a frozen windshield. I don’t have a perfect solution, but I want you to keep your head up and look around.

If you can, make the 911 call. That puts you in the police register as someone who was a victim. That and your carry permit change the way the officers react to you.

Rob- What you said is more than what we learn in a concealed carry class. When would you cover getting out of your car and then shooting on the move in low light?

Tony- I don’t teach low light classes but I hosted low light classes taught by qualified instructors. It is very important to get training in facing deadly threats during the hours of darkness. That’s when a significant percentage of attacks occur.

Rob- Definitely more than beginning firearms safety.

Tony- Usually after concealed carry and holster presentation. Those advanced classes are there if you look for them.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Fortunately, the defender was armed and had a carry permit.
However, he did not have a plan and he used poor judgment. .

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Don’t Look Like Sheep: Sitting alone in a car at night, in the dark is an invitation to criminals to take your car, your wallet and maybe even your life. If you have to sit in a parked car for whatever reason, go to a place that has lights, cameras and witnesses. Keep your head up, on a swivel and be aware of your surroundings. If you don’t, you look like “sheep” to the “wolves” they won’t eat you. Learn to look at yourself and your actions through the eyes of a criminal. Are you easy prey or are you too much trouble?
Emotional Control: Strong emotions cloud your judgment. Chasing someone who hits your car and takes off is only asking for trouble. If you chase someone, you may become the aggressor in a self-defense case. The defender should have stayed in his car where he was hit and called 911 with a description of the other car and passengers. Insurance covers hit and run accidents. Let the police do their job. Carrying a gun does not make you invincible.
The Soft Skills: The end of the news article states that the district attorney is still deciding whether to charge the driver whose car was hit. The only time you are allowed to use deadly force is if trouble comes looking for you. De-escalate, evade, escape, avoid and only when all of those fail are you permitted to defend yourself.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com

I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast.

Rob- After you look at Tony articles and his schedule, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Tony- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 339 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. What have you been doing since we talked?

Robyn at the RangeRobyn- Hi, Rob. I just returned from SHOT Show. I had 2 range days, 2 podcasts, and 30 meetings in just five days, but it was great to get some facetime with A Girl & A Gun sponsors and friends. Now I’m back in the office planning events for 2024. How about you?

Rob- I’m good and I’ve been doing some dry practice at home and with students in their homes.

We received a comment on the podcast webpage. Dave said he has been listening for years. He points out that Minnesota citizens need a permit simply to purchase a handgun. He also notes that a carry permit isn’t required to defend yourself at home or at work. He still recommends getting one because the carry class helps gun owners learn their state laws.

In addition to Dave, I also want to thank Roger for his help this week.

Robyn- You can go to the iTunes store and subscribe to our podcast and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Edgewater, Illinois.

Rob- First story- Are you armed in public?You are walking down the street before dawn on a weekday. Two cars stop in the street in front of you. Men get out of the cars and one man walks toward you. He is armed. He demands your possessions. You move to cover and present your firearm. Your attacker shoots at you and you shoot at him. He runs to the car and your attackers drive away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help.

You stay on the line with the dispatcher. You put your gun away as the police arrive. You give them a brief statement and then show them your ID. You also show them your Illinois concealed carry card. Police find blood on the street.

Later, you find out that robbers using similar vehicles robbed two other victims on the street that morning. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- Good for our defender for paying attention, and being prepared by already having a concealed carry card and a firearm. This means that he wasn’t just equipped with the tools, he had taken some training classes and really put some consideration into his personal safety. Plus, he was carrying on the street that morning when he was attacked.

I love that our good guy had his head out of his earphones and was paying attention to what was happening around him. He saw his attack unfold. He presented his gun and moved. He defended himself and stopped shooting when the bad guys took off. He called for help. He met the police with empty hands. He gave a statement to the officers.

Rob- Besides not being in Chicago, or not being there alone in the dark, what else would you like your students to do to be safer in a similar situation?

Robyn- Maybe our defender could have done more to avoid being selected that morning. How was his walking gate or pace and his posture? Could he have had a flashlight in his support hand? Having one tool could have been a tell to the attackers that he also had other tools on board. He could also use the light to temporarily blind or distract the attacker, and to gain more information so that he can articulate his defensive actions and mindset. Also, I would like him to consider his preparedness and efficiency. Was he wearing gloves? Did he dry practice with the gloves on? Be sure that you practice how you live… make sure your finger fits into the trigger guard, or maybe choose to wear thin gloves when you carry.

Rob- What classes usually come after you get your carry permit?

Robyn- Take a class where we use movement and cover as we shoot. Take a class where you get to shoot from new positions, like crouching, kneeling, sitting, or lying down. I also want you to take a class where you shoot in low light conditions. There were probably street lights, but it can be hard to see your sights, especially when you’re target focused

Rob- Are there pre paid insurance plans that you like?

Robyn- Yes, given that this is Chicago, have a lawyer to call. There are a number of great options in the market these days. The Armed Citizens’ Legal Defense Network, US Law Shield, USCCA, Right to Bear. Do your research and select one (or more) that meet your needs.

Rob- Before we move on, I noticed that there are a couple of stories each week where licensed concealed carriers defend themselves in Chicago. Where is our next story?

Robyn- Our second story happened in Houston, Texas

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- This defender had a plan. He wasn’t lucky, he was prepared for a possible attack. He had a gun, a permit and some training.
When he recognized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation his training kicked in. He moved (hopefully to cover) as he pulled his gun and defended himself against multiple attackers.
He stayed at the scene, called the police and met them with empty hands.
He survived this attack because he was trained and equipped. Good job.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Carrying and using a flashlight properly can be just as important as carrying and using a gun. Sometimes it can be a deterrent and it can always help to identity your target.

Rob- Second Story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?It is just after midnight on a weekday. You’re expecting one of your family members to arrive home. You hear them arrive, and then you hear shouts outside. You look outside and see three men robbing your family member.

You grab your gun and go outside. You shoot at your attackers. They shoot back as they run. Two of them drive away while the third one falls down. You check on your family and then call 911 for help.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. They use a police dog to find your wounded attacker. You and your family give the police brief statements. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. Your attacker is charged with aggravated robbery. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- This is similar to the first story, but it happened late at night, at home, and there were more armed attackers.

I love that a family member was looking out for someone arriving home. They saw a problem and then reacted to it. They had a firearm nearby so that they could help effectively. They also had a firearm that gave them enough rounds to be able to address multiple armed assailants. The good guys stopped shooting when the bad guys drove away.

Rob- What else would you want us to do?

Robyn- They story says that the victim was attacked as he was getting out of his car. The pictures of the home show a strong fence as if the home had livestock in the yard. That often means there is a gate, so make sure you close the gate immediately so that strangers cannot approach our house.

This makes me wonder if he was followed or if he could have made some different decisions. If he was going followed, could he have kept driving and not gone home? If a car was parked in front of the house with attackers planning an ambush, could he have kept driving and called the police? Maybe he called home or a neighbor and asked for more information.

Another good option would be to add motion lights that light up the driveway and the side of the house when we arrive home. Let’s light up the porch as we get out of our car. And be mindful of HOW we get out of the car. Know areas of hard cover using your vehicle, how to bail out and get to cover, or when to stay in the vehicle, drive, or shoot from inside. We cover all of these techniques in our A Girl & A Gun DRIFT Academy course.

And suppose you or your family member was wounded. Do you have first aid or trauma supplies and do you know how to use them?

All of that is way too much to figure out at midnight, so you and your family need a safety plan. Although these two stories were similar, think about how different their safety plans would be.

And, if nothing else, all responsible adults should have their permits, and be armed and trained. Did I say that?

Rob- You did now. Where are we going for our third news story?

Robyn- We’re headed to Salem, Indiana.

Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender was situationally aware and responded when the family was in danger.
The defender had a gun and it was nearby. A gun in a safe is useless when you need it for self-defense.
The defender stopped shooting when the attackers left.
The defender checked on her family, called 911 and gave the police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- Lights and cameras! Turn on lights. Add motion-activated lights and video cameras.
Transitional spaces- going from your car to a building puts you in a vulnerable position- be aware.
Use cover and concealment to your advantage.
Get the training and equipment to stop the bleeding from a gunshot wound to yourself and/or others.

Cprchttps://crimeresearch.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home?You let a friend sleep on your couch because he had problems with his girlfriend. Now your friend starts an argument in your home. He attacks your two female roommates. He attacks you and shatters a glass cabinet. You get your gun. The next time he attacks you, you shoot him. Now he stops so you stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. Your roommates apply first aid.

Police and EMTs arrive. You put your gun away. You and your roommates meet the officers with empty hands. All of you give statements to the police about what happened. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene. Police also interview your neighbors to find out what they heard.

You’re taken to the police station as detectives go over the reports. Your attacker was convicted of domestic violence. Your attacker had to leave his home after again attacking a domestic partner. You are released and not charged with a crime. The news reports don’t mention if you and your roommates needed medical attention.

Robyn- With friends like this, who needs enemies? So I like that our defender had a gun to defend himself and his roommates. He stopped the repeated assaults in his home. He called for help and the roommates applied first aid. There were lots of witnesses and they each gave a statement to the officers.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Robyn- Don’t bring a person with a history of violence into your home. It isn’t safe for you or the other people you live with. Reading the story, we can’t tell if the attacker had a history of psychological problems or addiction, but what might have happened if the defender was not home when the attacker assaulted the roommates.

If you know people like this in your life, make sure that your a safety plan addresses who we invite home. Think about how intoxicated or emotional someone can be before they are not allowed inside. Do you call the police? Do you put them up at a hotel? Do you lock the doors and don’t respond? Think through your options, what is realistic for your life, and how you can manage those relationships in a way that doesn’t put you or your roommates in danger.

I said it before that I’d like all responsible adults to be armed so they can defend themselves and innocent people. This means that if you have irresponsible people or strangers in your home, then you need to have a secure place to store your firearm when it isn’t in a holster on your body.

Rob- Was this a gun problem?

Robyn- This is a lethal force problem that is primarily a disparity of force issue. A young adult man was beating up the women who lived in the home. As an adult male, you might stop him by going hand to hand, but maybe not if he is much larger or more skilled than you, and probably not if you are female. You have to be able to determine if you are faced with a lethal, immediate, and unavoidable threat, and you have to be able to articulate that what you did was the safest option.

Rob- Should we treat an injured attacker?

Robyn- Your heart may say yes, your lawyer might say maybe, and your firearms instructor says absolutely not. Your safety is your priority. The police won’t let the EMTs near the attacker until he is disarmed and handcuffed.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Dothan, Alabama.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender was trying to help his so-called friend but that person turned out to be an attacker.
The defender recognized that he and his roomates were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender grabbed his gun and shot the attacker until the attack stopped.
The defender called 911 and put his gun away when the police arrived.
The defender and the roomates all gave the police statements.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The roommates trying to stop the attacker’s bleeding wound put all of them in danger. Don’t approach an attacker until they are restrained and someone is covering them.
Did the defender know that his “friend” was convicted of domestic abuse? Be careful who you invite into your home.
Hopefully, the defender had his gun on his body or in a quick-access safe. If you own a gun, it must be under your control at all times.
Did the defender have another gun available? Most likely, his gun would be confiscated by the police as evidence for quite some time. The defender may need another gun in case of retaliation from the attacker’s friends or family. “Two is one and one is none.”

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?It is Saturday and you’re walking down the street. A man walks up beside you and asks you for help with his phone. Then he draws a gun and demands your purse. He grabs your purse and pulls on it. You present your firearm and shoot at your attacker. He drops your purse and runs. You call 911 and ask for the police.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the officers a brief statement and point out witnesses. Other people called 911 when they heard shots. Police find your attacker nearby. They also find his gun. He was using a bb-gun to rob people.

Your attacker is charged with first degree robbery and held on a 60-thousand dollar cash bail. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- These situations happen in just an instant. She was looking down the barrel of a gun and kept her mind focused. The robber grabbed her purse, so that makes me think the armed defender had her firearm on her body so she could still reach it. She identified an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat so she was justified to use lethal force in her defense. The defender stopped shooting when the attacker was not a threat any longer.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do?

Robyn- Practice your MUC and de-escalation skills. MUC is M-U-C, which is an acronym that stands for Managing Unknown Contacts. Craig Douglas from ShivWorks coined these techniques and Chuck Haggard from Agil Tactical also teaches this at our A Girl & A Gun National Conference. Have situational awareness and use your words as someone approaches you. This can help with the victim de-selection process and at best, the bad guy will just move on to the next person. At worst, it articulates your mindset and actions, and it creates good witnesses. Speak clearly, “No. I can’t help you.” and if he doesn’t leave, increase your intensity and volume. “Get away now!”

Anyone who comes closer after you say that isn’t asking for help. They are a threat who is trying to get closer to you. That is when you prepare to defend yourself and potentially draw your gun and move to cover if necessary.

As you’re moving down the street, keep your head up so you see threats as they are approaching. That way you can escape before they are so close that they could grab you or your purse.

Practice presenting your pistol from concealment while we’re wearing your work clothes, winter coat, winter gloves, and purse. Practice this at home without ammunition in the gun and no ammunition in the room at all.

It will take you about 15 minutes a night over several evenings for you to become consistent. Then, you can go to the range and practice live fire.

I’d like you to practice presentation where you bring the gun all the way up and use the sights. Bring the sights into your line of sights; don’t peek over the pistol. You want good, high center hits, not in the belly. You may also practice shooting from retention, but take a close-quarter class so you learn the proper technique.

Our defender made one shot and missed her attacker. Then she stopped shooting. Shoot until the attacker is no longer a threat.

Rob- When do your students learn to defend themselves from someone who is so close that the attacker can grab them or their gun?

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender had a gun with her and it was not in her purse. If the gun was in the purse, the defender would not have been able to get to it in time since the attacker yanked the purse off the defender’s shoulder.
The defender fired one shot but missed. Fortunately, the attacker decided to run off rather than stay and fight.
The called 911, gave police a brief statement and pointed out witnesses.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Situational Awareness: How big is your sphere of influence? The more you pay attention, the better armed and trained you are the larger your sphere becomes and the better your chances are of surviving an attack. Distance gives you time to react.
It’s OK to be rude in public. The answer to every unsolicited question on the streets is “NO!” and walk away quickly. Criminals use innocent questions in order to get within your sphere of influence and to get you to lower your guard. That’s part of their “victim interview process”. You want to fail that interview. Do something unexpected so as to break their OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act) loop.
On the body carry: Carrying a gun and/or pepper spray on your body is the best way to insure that your self-defense tool(s) are readily available and under your control.
The defender probably missed because she didn’t know how to shoot from a retention position. Knowing how to shoot from a retention position and also how to shoot while moving to cover are more important than knowing how to get tight groups at a square range. You can practice these techniques using a “dry” gun, a laser gun or an airsoft gun.
The attacker used a BB gun instead of a real gun but legally that doesn’t matter. A defender must assume that an imitation gun is real or even a “finger gun” in a pocket is real and act accordingly.

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.

Rob- After you find a chapter of a girl and a gun near you, then leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 338 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. What has been keeping you so busy?

Andee ReardonAndee- Hi, Rob. I’ve been busy trying to catch up on work. Over the weekend I taught two women’s classes, basic pistol and the USCCA’s Women’s concealed carry and then Monday night we had Ladies’ night on the range at my local indoor shooting range where we get together. This weekend I’ll be teaching outdoors in the Maine elements so I’m praying for decent weather. I was in Boston last week and sadly had to leave my gun at home. I’m really glad to have it back.

How about you?

Rob- I was sick for most of December, then I was traveling overseas again. I carried when I got back in the US. It’s funny that I was waiting for the rain to stop so I could go for a run, and you were waiting for the snow to stop so you could go to the gym.

I want to thank Roger for his help with the stories this week. I’d like you to help new listeners find us by going to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Tell new gun owners why you listen.

Andee- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Katy, Texas.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home?You are at home in the middle of the morning on Sunday. You hear someone banging on your apartment door. One of your male roommates opens the door. A man and a woman force their way inside and attack your male roommate. Your roommate fights back.

You grab your gun and shoot your two attackers. You stop shooting when they stop hitting your roommate. The woman falls down. The news reports aren’t clear if you called 911 or if your roommates did. Your neighbors also called 911 to report shots fired. You put your gun away before the police arrive.

EMTs declare your female attacker dead at the scene. The male attacker is taken to the hospital for treatment of life threatening gunshot wounds. You and your roommates give statements to the police. There is another male and two children in the home. They are uninjured. You are not charged with a crime.

Andee- I like that one of the defenders owned a gun. She had it within reach when she needed it. She recognized that the several people who were beating her roommate posed an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat. She shot them until the threat stopped, then she stopped shooting. Someone called 911. The defender met the police with empty hands, and all of the roommates stayed at the scene and gave statements to the police.

Rob- The good news is that there were witnesses. The bad news is that witnesses say things that can get us into trouble. What else do you want your students to do in a situation like this?

Andee- I want all of you to form a plan. That includes children so they know not to open the door and let strangers into your home and they know where to hide for safety. You have the right to open the door, but it is almost always a bad plan. The bad guys outside are not a lethal threat until you open the door. Having a stationary weapon (doesn’t need to be a firearm) by the door so you have access to something if you’re fighting off someone coming through the door. If they’re trying to push their way through, some pepper spray or a hit from a blunt object might back them up enough to get the door shut and locked. But, I’d rather you not open it in the first place. You should be able to see on the other side of the door, by means of a peep hole, window or camera system. Preferably, a way to see out but keep others from seeing in.

Having a safety plan in place with several people in the home means someone can call 911 even while the bad guys are outside beating on the door. Make that someone’s job so they know that they are the person who calls 911 and gets the police on the way. Being armed is part of the plan. An armed defender can yell that they are armed and that the police are on their way.

Part of that safety plan is knowing what to say to police. All members of the household should be informed what they should and shouldn’t say while being questioned. Including, “I do not give permission to search my home, vehicle or person”.

In this kind of situation, I want everyone to retreat away from the front door to another room (your safe room) while the defender is standing behind cover or concealment, yet where she can see the front doorway.

Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body in a holster, or in a quick-access safe.

Rob- That is a lot to get right. When do your students learn about defending their home?

Andee- We talk about it a little bit in the beginners class since the majority of students are there for self defense reasons. But you have to crawl before you walk, get the basics down first. As students progress and take more advanced classes, we cover things like building your own personal safety plan, how to use effective cover and concealment, etc.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story, or should we go on?

Andee- Our second story happened in Peoria, Illinois.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender owned a gun which was within quick reach when she needed it.
The defender recognized that her roommate was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation because he was being attacked by two other people.
The defender shot both attackers until they stopped hitting her roommate.
The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over, stayed at the scene and called 911.
The defender put her gun away when police arrived and gave them a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Someone banging on your door is not a lethal threat until you either open the door which gives them access or until the door breaks and allows the attackers to enter. DON’T OPEN THE DOOR.
There were a number of people in the apartment when the attackers started banging on the door. Any one of them could have called 911 while the defender who had a gun could have yelled through the door to the attackers that 911 had been called, that she was armed and that they should leave.
The defender should have directed that everyone in the apartment retreat away from the door to another room while she took a defensive position behind cover or concealment in sight of the door in case the attackers broke the door down.
If the attacker were to break down the door then the defender should have fired on them while they were lined up in the “fatal funnel”.
Since there were children in the apartment, the defender’s gun should have either been on her body or in a quick-access safe.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?

You’re helping your friend buy a car. He sees a vehicle he likes on Facebook Marketplace. You go with him to look at the car after work. When you get to the location, you see two men waiting for you. They say the car is around the corner. There, you see three more men, and they have guns in their hands. You’re being robbed.

You have a concealed carry license and you’re armed. Your attackers start shooting and you shoot back. Everyone runs. You and your friend are not wounded and you stay nearby. You call 911 and ask for help.

Police and EMTs arrive and you put your gun away. The officers find one of your attackers nearby. He is wounded. EMTs try to save his life but then pronounce him dead at the scene.

You and your friend give statements to the police. You show them your Identification and your carry permit. Your friend shows them the Facebook advertisement. You are not charged with a crime, but the police suggest using the police parking lot to make exchanges.

Andee- I like that the buyer brought a friend, there’s safety in numbers. Unfortunately, the bad guys had more numbers and often do. Sellers can be robbed of their property. Buyers can be robbed of their money. They made a plan since they were going to meet strangers in a strange place. The armed friend had his carry permit, owned a gun, and carried concealed. Good for both of them. I do wonder if they thought something felt off when they were told the vehicle was around the corner… that would seem suspicious to me. When in doubt, trust your gut.

The defender recognized that they were being robbed, and that they faced a lethal threat even before the bad guys started shooting. He shot back and the good guys ran away.

The victims called for help and gave statements to the police.

Rob- There is a lot of information that isn’t covered in the news.

Andee- Plan to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be the best plan. Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great. Listen to your gut.

Put some distance between you and your partner so you form two separate targets. Keep something like a car between you and the strangers.

Do not bring cash.

Ask one of your friends to record a picture or video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate.

Ideally, I want both of you to be armed.

Rob- This is beyond marksmanship. We want to move, present our firearm without pointing it at our partner, and then shoot multiple moving targets. We want to have done that enough times that it is a habit rather than a deliberate, step by step thought. How do I learn to do that?

Andee- You can learn that through practice at home with an unloaded firearm and taking more advanced classes that teach shooting on the move.

Rob- Where are we headed next?

Andee- Our third story happened in Grafton, Virginia.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender went with his friend when he was meeting with a stranger(s) to look at a car. The defender brought his carry license and his gun with him.
The defender and friend were in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when they were surrounded by armed robbers.
The defender exchanged fire with the attackers and ran. Fortunately, he managed to shoot one of them without getting himself or his friend shot. Hopefully, the defender knew how to move and engage multiple targets.
The defender stayed at the scene and gave police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Meeting a stranger to buy or sell items can be very dangerous so the proper precautions need to be taken.
Arrange to meet where there are lights, cameras and witnesses. Ideally, meeting at a police station parking lot during the day might be your best bet.
Don’t go alone. Ask a friend or two to go with you and if one or more of you are armed that would be great.
Don’t stand together so you make yourselves more difficult targets. Keep some objects, like a car, between you and the stranger.
DON’T BRING CASH!
Ask one of your friends to record a video of the people you’re meeting and their car’s license plate.
This story took place in Peoria, Illinois. That state does not recognize any other state’s carry permit and they don’t have out-of-state concealed carry licenses. They also have a FOID card requirement which is a “Firearm Owners Identification” card which means it’s illegal for an out-of-stater to even possess a firearm in that state. According to the news report, the defender in this story was from out of state so he was not carrying legally. He may or may not be charged with possession and carrying a concealed weapon which in some states is a felony. KNOW THE LAWS WHERE YOU LIVE AND WHERE YOU TRAVEL.

Rob- First this message from the FASTER saves lives.

FASTER saves liveshttps://fastersaveslives.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?You’re behind the counter at a gas station/ convenience store. It is about 9 AM and the morning rush is over. Another customer walks in and pushes his way behind the counter. He says this is a robbery. You let him have the money. Now the robber pushes you toward the back bathroom.

You’re armed. You present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker twice. Your first shot hits him in the leg and your second shot hits him in the abdomen. He stops pushing you and you stop shooting.

You step away and call 911 for help. You talk to the dispatcher and ask for police and Emergency Medical Services. You stay on the line, but have to put your phone down when you put your gun away. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital for treatment. You have to close the store for the rest of the day as the police collect evidence at the scene.

When your attacker is released from the hospital, he is held without bond in the county jail. He is charged with robbery, abduction by force, possession of stolen property, and also charged with grand larceny from an earlier incident.

You are not charged with a crime.

Andee- Our defender recognized that he was all alone in a store that is frequently targeted by robbers. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting. The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. Robbers move us to a new location because they don’t want to be seen. That is our signal that the fight is on. Never allow yourself to be forced to a new location, the chances of survival drop down as soon as you do.

The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force.

The defender stopped shooting after getting two hits on the bad guy, and the robber stopped pushing him to the back of the store.

Our defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends.

The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Andee- This is called close quarters defense where the bad guy is close enough to grab us or grab our gun. It also explains why the bad guy was shot in the leg and the stomach. We have to push the bad guy away so we have room to reach our gun, but that also means our support hand can get between our gun and the bad guy. That takes practice so we don’t shoot ourselves. I give classes in close quarters defense, and that usually comes a few classes after your concealed carry permit.

Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all the customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get into the store.

I want you to know how to stop the bleeding if your or a customer were injured. Your business needs a first aid kit. And in that kit should be a tourniquet.

There are generally two types of criminals. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry, or credit cards. They want to grab your stuff and run. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. They want to make you vulnerable and hurt you. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which.

Finally, there should have been security video in the store. Employees need to know how to save and transfer those video files to the police and to your lawyer. If you’re going to carry a gun at work then you need a lawyer to call so he fills out your police report for you.

Rob- Do you talk about that in your use of force classes?

Andee- Yes, it’s very important. Buying and training with a gun is only part of concealed carry. The other part is knowing how to keep yourself safe morally, financially and legally.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Andee- Our fourth story took place Near Austin, Texas.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender worked at a very dangerous job. He planned ahead by purchasing and carrying a gun on his body at work. If the gun was placed under the counter the defender may not have been able to get to it in time or the robber may have taken the gun first.
The defender let the robber take the money out of the register. He used “Tactical Patience” and waited his turn before acting.
The defender held his fire until the robber tried to force him into the back bathroom. The news report said that the police were unable to find a weapon at the scene. Even if the robber did not have a weapon and only pretended to hold a gun in his pocket, the act of forced relocation is probably kidnapping which usually allows for the use of deadly force.
The defender stopped shooting after two hits and the robber stopped pushing him to the back.
The defender stepped away from the robber. Distance and cover are your friends.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and stayed on the line, put the gun away and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender complied with the robber until the robber tried to force him into the back room. The odds of surviving a forced relocation are very low. The only reason a criminal relocates you is so he can do something to you that he can’t do where you are. THIS SHOULD BE YOUR LINE IN THE SAND!
Once the robber was on the floor and no longer a threat, the defender should have moved all customers away from the windows and locked the doors so the robber’s friends couldn’t get in.
Did the defender know how to stop the bleeding if a customer or himself had been injured or shot? Did the store have a first aid kit?
Did the defender know how to hold the robber at gunpoint without putting himself in further danger?
Did the store have security cameras? Sometimes they can act as a deterrent as well as record the incident.
Criminals come in two types: Resource Predators and Process Predators. The Resource Predators want your stuff like money, cars, jewelry. Process Predators enjoy inflicting pain and humiliation. The problem is that you can’t tell which is which from just looking at them. Sometimes it’s too late when you finally figure it out.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home?You’re in your front yard pulling weeds in the middle of the morning. A stray pitbull runs up to you. You don’t know the dog and he doesn’t have any tags. You retreat to your garage and the dog follows you. You try to shoo the dog out of your garage with a broom, but that doesn’t work. You grab a hatchet, and use the blunt side of the hatchet to frighten the dog. He moves toward you and you retreat into your home through the garage door.

The stray pitbull pushes past you to enter your home. He bites your dog and then drags your dog to your bedroom. You grab your gun from the nightstand and shoot the pitbull twice at the base of his skull. Now he lets go of your dog.

You call 911 and your veterinarian. After the police arrive, you take your dog to the vet’s office. He was at the office for three days before you got him back.

Andee- I like that the defender climbed the ladder of force. She tried to push the attacking dog away twice. Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force.

Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans. Again, we have to know the laws in our state.

The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog, and that can be hard to do. It is another version of close quarters contact where you might have to grab your attacker so you move with them as you shoot.

The defender called 911 so the police could find the pitbull’s owner.

Rob- We generally want to call 911 any time we had to touch our gun in anger. It is better to call and find out they are not interested than to have someone else call.

What else do you see?

Andee- Our defender didn’t have her gun when she was out in public. That is a problem if her dog was attacked or if she was attacked in her front yard. Carry on your body so your defensive tools are with you when you need them.

Maybe she should have been carrying pepper spray too. It’s a great tool and since it’s non-lethal, you don’t have to wait until last minute to have it ready.

As trivial as this sounds, I want you to call your lawyer even if the attacker is a dog.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- The defender tried to push the attacking dog away twice without success.
Each time the defender increased the amount of force she used until she had to use lethal force.
Most states allow the use of deadly force against a dog that is attacking other animals or humans.
The defender was able to shoot the attacking dog twice without hitting her own dog.
The defender called 911 so the police could find the attacking dog’s owner.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

On the body carrying is the quickest way to access your firearm. Anyone, anywhere and anytime you can be attacked by four-legged, two-legged or even no-legged (snakes) predators.
The defender was very fortunate that the dog did not attack her in her yard since she wasn’t carrying her gun with her. The outcome may have been quite different.
A gun is not always the legal or the most appropriate self-defense tool. According to the FBI, you are five times more likely to need a non-lethal weapon as opposed to a firearm. KNOW THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE LAWS.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Andee- Look for me at East Coast School of Safety and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name.

Rob- After you look at Andee articles and classes, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Andee- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 337 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy?

David- Hi, Rob. I’ve been doing a little hunting (not enough), testing out my new chronograph of the range, and a bit of dry fire practice.

How about you?

Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I also want to thank Roger for his help this week. We received some messages from people who will write for us, so that was my Christmas present.

David- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Denver, Colorado.

Rob- First story- Are you armed in public?You and your girlfriend are taking your kids to the museum. It is the middle of the weekday afternoon when you park your car and start to unload your kids. You see two young men run toward you. They are armed and have guns in their hands. One of them hits you in the back of the head. You’re armed as well. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. They also shoot at you as they run across the parking lot. You stop shooting and check on your family. No one is wounded. You call 911 and ask for help. You stay at the scene. You and your girlfriend give statements to the police. You describe your attackers, their clothing, and their get-away car.

Police arrest your attacker when he is dropped off at the hospital. Unfortunately, the officers don’t stop the car that drops him off. Your attacker is charged with four counts of attempted first-degree murder, two counts of felony menacing, and attempted aggravated robbery.

David- I’m glad that our defender recognized that we all face risks when we’re out in public. It sounds like he put together a plan that included carrying a firearm when he was out with his family. He recognized a threat. He defended himself. He stopped shooting when the bad guys stopped shooting. He checked on his family. They stayed at the scene and called for help. They couple met the police officers with empty hands. They both gave statements to the police.

Rob- That is a lot to get right. What else do you see that wasn’t mentioned in the news reports?

David- A plan begins with your family. What can they contribute? Have you walked through the plan with them and taken their ideas? Have you sought out first aid training? How about firearms safety training? Do all the adults have their carry permits? Have they trained together? Have they taken an armed defense class together, and a legal use of lethal force class together?

I bring up those issues because going to the store and buying a gun is the easy part. You can buy a gun in a half hour. Becoming skilled in its use as a tool of armed defense takes some effort.

I want the couple to pay attention so they have an opportunity to avoid an attack. I’m glad that the robbers missed, but I want the defender to be better at hitting his target and stopping the threat. This was probably a busy area given the location and time of day, so the risk of hitting innocent bystanders would be high. All shots hit something! Rule 4 applies in gunfights as well as the range.

The parking lot is a transition area where you’re changing your activities. Work as a team so that one of you is looking around as the other is getting a child ready for the museum. Once your partner is ready, then they become the lookout as you work on your side of the car.

If you see a threat and shout stop, then the kids have to know to get down and your partner has to know to draw their gun and get behind cover. Most criminals will turn and run rather than walk into a gunfight.

Rob- I noticed that both bad guys were armed and had their guns out.

David- I saw that too. While it is essential to carry at least one spare magazine or speed loader, having an armed partner who knows how to work with you can be a great force multiplier.

Rob- I noticed that the bad guys were shooting at the family as the bad guys ran away. That means the defender might shoot the bad guy in the back as he runs.

David- That could happen. The important point is that you know the law and can articulate why innocent people were at an immediate risk and that shooting the fleeing robber was the safest thing to do. Both of you need that knowledge so that you are both acting consistently and within the law.

More to the point, you want a lawyer available to advise you before you give a formal statement to the police.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover in this story, or should we go on?

David- It’s a good start. Our second story happened in Reeds Spring, Missouri.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender wanted to protect his family so he chose to carry a gun when he took his family to a museum. In some states, carrying a gun in a museum or even in the parking lot of a museum is a crime since that area is considered a “sensitive place.” Know the laws in your area. If you can’t carry your gun with you, should you take your family there? Do a risk assessment.
The defender held his fire until he was struck. Perhaps he should have fired sooner like when he first saw the two men running at him with guns in their hands. Watch the hands- they’re what kills. Know the laws about the Use of Deadly Force. You don’t have to wait to be shot or stabbed in order to defend yourself or others.
The defender shot at the fleeing bad guys who were shooting at him as they fled. As long as the fleeing bad guys were presenting a threat he is allowed to keep shooting. When the threat stops, the shooting stops.
The defender stayed at the scene, checked on his family and gave descriptions and a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The attackers got close enough to the defender in order to hit him in the head. Could the defender have drawn his gun as he moved to cover? Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position?
Did the defender know to move away from his family while he engaged in a gunfight? The bad guys are going to shoot at the guy with the gun and if the unarmed family members are near the defender they may get shot.
How many rounds of ammo did the defender have? The news article stated that the attackers had extended magazines which are illegal in Colorado. They were ready and willing to get into a gunfight. Was the defender sufficiently prepared? Colorado limits the ammo capacity to 15 rounds per magazine but it doesn’t limit carrying additional mags or a back-up gun. Attackers are like wolves- they come in packs.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home?You and your family are at home on a Saturday evening. It is about 10:30 when you hear someone outside. Your wife calls 911 and asks for help. You go out on your front porch to see if someone needs help. A stranger crawls through the woods and shouts at you. You tell him that help is on the way and to stay away. The stranger rushes you and grabs you. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He lets go of you so you stop shooting.

You and your wife give statements to the police when they arrive. The 911 recording includes your shouts for the attacker to stop and move away. A toxicology report shows that the attacker was on methamphetamine at the time of the attack. Several of his prior criminal convictions involve drug use. You are not charged with a crime.

David- I like that the couple worked as a team. They paid attention to an unusual situation and got law enforcement on the way immediately. The male homeowner grabbed a gun for self defense. He stayed on his porch rather than go exploring in the woods in the middle of the night.

The defender also gave clear verbal commands as he tried to de-escalate the situation. The defender stopped the attacker from taking his gun. He stopped shooting when the attacker moved away. The defenders stayed at the scene. The defender put his gun away and met the officers with empty hands. They also gave preliminary statements to the officers.

Rob- Why was it so important that the defender said something before he was attacked?

David- Verbal commands can accomplish several things. They can potentially de-escalate a situation or discourage an attacker. They keep us breathing during a stressful event. And they can contribute to our self defense justification by creating witnesses and evidence which aid our case. We have a 911 recording where the defender says he has help on the way and to not come any closer. Your lawyer is going to point out that If the attacker had taken that advice, then the situation would never have escalated to a violent encounter.

Rob- What do you see as best practice for us if we hear something outside at night?

David- You want a plan so you and your family know what to do and are not making life and death decisions when you’re half asleep. Plan to have the doors and windows locked. I honestly would have preferred that the family had stayed inside the house and called the police. Turn on the outside lights. Plan for both of you to be armed. Make the bad guys break their way into your house. You might be out the cost of a door, but you’re going to save tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills, not to mention possibly avoid having to take a life.

You also want a lawyer to call so they get your defense started.

Rob- I need a lawyer even though a druggie attacked me?

David- Yes you do. We’ve all seen cases of self defense where, even if there’s no criminal charges, the family pursues a civil case against the defender. His ex wife might now see you as a way to pay her bills for the next ten years.

Rob- Where are we going for our next story?

David- Our third story happened in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender and his wife recognized a potentially dangerous situation.
The defender grabbed his gun while his wife called 911.
The defender shouted to the stranger that help was on their way while the phone was recording the 911 call.
The defender stopped shooting as soon as the threat was over.
The defender gave a brief statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

It was 10:30 at night. Did the defender turn on any exterior flood lights or use a flashlight? Many times just the use of bright lights can stop an attack.
Why did the defender leave the relative safety of his home? Distance and cover are your best friends. Don’t give strangers the opportunity to attack.
Did the defender know how to shoot from a retention position?
Always make the attacker come to you. This is both tactically and legally sound.
Call 911 as soon as you can and leave the phone line open so they can record what’s going on. The 911 dispatcher is not a cop and you don’t have to do what the dispatcher says. Their job is to gain information and relay it to the responders for THEIR SAFETY, not yours. The 911 dispatchers aren’t on the scene. You are your own first responder until professional help arrives. That means that you have to know how to put out a fire, stop a wound from bleeding and defend yourself from attackers. The more you learn, the better your chances of survival.
Being attacked is a traumatic event and in this case the attacker died from his wounds. The defender is not only going to need a good lawyer but probably also a good therapist. The aftermath of a shooting event can last for years.

Rob- First this message from

JPFO.orgJPFO http://jpfo.org/

Rob- Third story- Are You Armed at Home?You are home alone on a Monday night. You hear your ex-boyfriend at the back door of the apartment. Fortunately, your doors and windows are locked. You arm yourself and shout for him to go away. He kicks down your back door and then your front door as he is looking for you. You stay inside the apartment and shoot him when he comes inside. You stop shooting when he runs. You stay inside and wait. After a minute, you call 911 and ask for the police. You put your gun away and give a statement to the officers when they arrive.

Police arrest your attacker at the hospital. He is treated for a gunshot wound to the abdomen. He is also arrested for an outstanding warrant. You are not charged with a crime.

David- I like that our defender chose to own a firearm for self-defense. She recognized that her ex boyfriend put her at an increased risk of violent attack. I love that she locked her doors and windows. That forced her boyfriend to break into her home. I looked at the area on Google Street View, and it is full of small homes and duplexes, so it probably created a number of ear witnesses who heard him break down your doors. I like that she stayed inside her home. She shot her attacker rather than let him get close to her, and she stayed inside as her attacker ran away. She called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave the police a statement.

Rob- Are there other things you want your students to do if they have a domestic abuse situation?

David- Let’s add some motion lights on our front and back door. Let’s add some security cameras and an alarm system. Let’s also get a restraining order so it is clear that your ex was supposed to stay away from you. The process will vary from state to state, but in Pennsylvania it appears to be as simple as going to the county courthouse, completing a petition, and possibly speaking to a judge. If you can afford an attorney to advise you, that makes it even easier, and most police officers can also advise you on how the process works.

Rob- What should a defender do if an ex breaks down her door?

David- In most cases, the best practice would be to seek another location in your home where you can barricade yourself while waiting for police. I’d like a defender to have all the lights in the house on if possible, and to issue verbal commands. Let them know you’re armed and that police are on the way. If you have 911 on the line, everything is recorded and this will be evidence that you did everything possible to avoid confrontation. If that confrontation comes, try to be positioned behind as much cover as possible and shoot to stop the threat.

Rob- In the earlier story you said it was an advantage that we shouted for the bad guy to go away. Wouldn’t it be better to stay quiet and try to avoid being found?

David- That’s a valid point, and it may be. You can certainly make that case, and I wouldn’t say you are wrong. I tend to lean towards being clear and vocal, but the situation may call for silence and hiding. I think it is very much a judgment call by the defender, considering the layout of their home and the nature of the attack. I’d just consider how likely it is that hiding will enable us to avoid the attack altogether. For example, if the house is small, it may be unrealistic to expect to be able to hide for long. A larger or more complex floor plan might make hiding a better option. But if attack is likely unavoidable, barricading with verbal commands may be better.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?David- Our fourth story took place in Akron, Ohio.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender recognized that her ex-boyfriend was “hunting” her after he broke down her front and back doors.
She armed herself and shouted for him to leave. Then she hid.
The defender shot the ex-boyfriend before she let him get close to her.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker ran away.
The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender had prepared for her ex-boyfriend’s attack.
The defender had purchased a gun and locked the doors and windows.
The defender should have obtained a restraining order as well. It won’t stop an attack but it lays the legal foundation for a self-defense claim.
The defender should have called 911 as soon as the first door was broken down. The sooner you call for help the sooner it arrives. Also, the 911 call records what’s going on. This provides evidence of your self-defense claim.
The defender wisely hid and made the ex-boyfriend come to her.
The defender shot the attacker before he was able to get close enough to take her gun from her.

Rob- Fourth story- Are You Armed at Work?You’re working behind the counter at a fastfood restaurant. It is late Monday night when another pair of customers comes inside. One of the customers draws a gun and demands the money from the cash register. It isn’t clear from the news story which employee handed over the money. After he received the cash, the robber started shooting. You’re armed. You present your handgun and shoot back. Your attackers run. You stop shooting when they are gone. You stay inside the store. It isn’t clear who checks on the other employees and who calls 911. You put your gun away when the police arrive.

You and the other employees give statements to the officers. You also show them your identification.

Police identify the two robbers when they arrive at the hospital. One is treated for a gunshot wound to the upper body. Both are arrested for armed robbery.

David- Note that the bad guys started shooting after they got the money. I’m glad the defender was armed at work. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to innocent victims. He waited his turn and then used his legally carried firearm to stop the threats. He did not chase the bad guys down the street but stayed inside the store. He also put his firearm away before the police arrived.

Rob- The news story doesn’t explain what happened. What should we do?

David- You and your co-workers need a safety plan. You want everyone who is not at the cash register to get to a secure position at the back of the store. You want a panic button so the police know you’re being robbed. You want to be behind cover and to protect your colleagues from the attacker. If possible, you don’t want to draw your firearm while the bad guys can see you. You want to put several shots on each attacker, starting with the closest and immediate threat first.

Rob- That is only the beginning of the story.

David- Check on your co-workers and customers. Get them to safety. Turn off the lights in the front of the store and lock the doors. See if anyone needs to be treated for cuts from flying glass. Ask all of them to call 911 so the police have a record of who was in the store.

All of that goes a lot smoother if you practice it with your co-workers ahead of time.

Rob- When would your students learn about a safety plan at work?

David- Beyond concealed carry.

Rob- Cover and concealment.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender recognized that working in a fast food place can be dangerous. Any place with a cash register is a potential target.
The defender had a gun with him at work when the attackers opened fire after they got the money. He was able to shoot back and probably saved lives.
The defender “waited his turn” and fired back at the attackers.
The defender stopped shooting after the attackers ran off.
The defender did not pursue the attackers.
The defender gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The more employees that are armed, the safer it is for all of them- especially if they have a plan.
Every employee needs to know what to do if someone attempts a robbery: move to cover, call 911, turn off the lights, lock the doors, check to see if anyone is bleeding.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Look for my articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest article is about changes in the NRA management, and another article about a chronograph that works every time.

Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 336 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What has been keeping you so busy since we talked?

Heather ReevesHeather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been enjoying the last few weeks of crazy holiday madness with family and friends, and learning new software to help edit my podcast, Everyday Carry Chicks.

How about you?

Rob- I’ve been shooting my new firearm that I got back from ATEi in Michigan. I’ve been listening to your podcast. While you were busy recording your podcast, our show received new ratings and comments on iTunes.

Chester said this was an amazing resource, and he likes that it is free.

Another listener said he learns how fast these events can happen and we help him develop plans for self-defense.

I also want to thank Roger for his help again this week.

Dwayne sent in a story. Thank you, Dwayne.

We also had some people ask about writing for the podcast, so that was my Christmass present.

Heather- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Greenfield, Indiana.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive?It is very clear that this story was taken from a police report. We know the incident happened in a car, but we know neither whose car it was nor who was driving.

We know you were in a car with your ex-boyfriend. You have a restraining order out against him. That means it is a crime for him to deliberately come within several hundred feet of you.

It is about 1 in the morning. Your ex-boyfriend hits you. You tell him to stop. You present a firearm and shoot him when he doesn’t. Now he stops and runs away. You drive to a nearby business and ask for help. It isn’t clear if you had to drive in another car or if you were originally driving your own car. You call the police and stay at the business until they arrive. You give the officers a statement.

The officers find your attacker and arrest him. They apply emergency first aid until Emergency Medical Technicians arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to his arm. He is arrested upon release from the hospital and is now in jail without bond. He was recently arrested for a parole violation.

You are not charged with a crime.

Rob- Heather, what did our defender do correctly?

Heather- Abusers try to make their victims think that abuse is normal. Our defender thought that she faced an unusual risk from her ex. She got a restraining order. She bought a firearm and learned how to use it. Last year Indiana became a constitutional carry state, so she neither needed a carry permit nor did she have to wait for one.

She recognized that it was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when an adult man was punching her as she sat in her car. She defended herself until the threat ran away. She drove to a safe location and asked for help. She talked to the police. She took them back to the scene and showed them what happened to her.

Rob- This story leaves us with several questions. Who was driving and why or how did the defender let her attacker into her car.

Heather- We don’t know if the attacker kidnapped her. You want your firearm on your body so it is there when you need it. If you’re in a car, you don’t wait until you see a car crash about to happen to put your seatbelt on. Your gun should be treated the same way. If you want to be able to use it, you must have it on you. If you ever take out a restraining order and have to meet your abuser, then we want you to do so with lots of witnesses you brought with you. Preferably big armed men who also have pepper spray in their pocket.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover on this story, or should we go on?

Heather- Let’s go to Chicago, Illinois for our second story.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender realized that her ex-boyfriend was a possible danger to her and she wisely took out a restraining order on him.
The defender also had a gun near her in the car when the ex-boyfriend assaulted her.
She realized that she was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation and she shot the ex-boyfriend in order to stop the beating.
After the ex-boyfriend ran off, the defender drove away to gain some distance / safety, called 911 when she stopped and gave the police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Did the defender originally let the ex-boyfriend in her car willingly or was she kidnapped? If she let the “ex” in her car willingly, she used very poor judgment and she put herself into a very dangerous position tactically. It’s not unusual for battered women to keep going back to their abusers even after they are repeatedly beaten and emotionally abused. The abusive boyfriends become masters of manipulation and they temporarily convince the women that they are sorry and that they won’t hit them again. The abusers can be very charming until the tensions and anxiety build up and they finally lash out again. It’s a vicious cycle.
If the ex-boyfriend had kidnapped her, the police would have charged him with that.
The restraining order probably was not violated if the woman allowed the ex-boyfriend to get near her.
The defender should have brought a friend or two with her when she and the ex-boyfriend met. Or they should have met in a very public place and driven there separately.
The defender should have had a non-lethal option with her as well as a gun.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?It is late on a Saturday afternoon. You are approached by four teenagers as you walk down the street. They are armed and tell you to hand everything over. Your wallet has an Illinois Firearms Owners ID card inside. You have a gun on your hip. You present your firearm and shoot the armed attacker who is closest to you. The three other attackers run. You call 911 and stay at the scene.

You put your gun away before the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital where he is pronounced dead from a gunshot wound to the chest. You show the police your identification and your carry permit. You are 68 years old. Your attacker was 19. You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target of violent crime, especially in his neighborhood. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago. The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers. The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and then gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news story?

Heather- There are a lot of things that weren’t mentioned in the story. In general, we want to avoid drawing our gun when another person already has their gun pointed at us, so we don’t know what the older man did to avoid getting shot.

We can wait for a distraction, create a distraction, or move as we draw. Ideally, we’d move to cover.

Rob- It seems this defender only shot once.

Heather- You want to shoot the closest attacker and then start on the next closest attacker. You can keep shooting until they are out of range or until you can retreat to cover. Then again, we don’t know what was behind the bad guys, so maybe our defender was saving lives by not shooting.

Rob- Does that mean I might have to shoot an unarmed attacker who has his back to me?

Heather- It might. The three of them could turn around and kill you, so you need to stay observant of the situation until they are so far away that you could stop them one at a time.

Rob- When do you tell your students about those sort of legal details in armed defense?

Heather- We start covering legal with our Concealed Handgun class, and never really stop. When it comes down to it, there is a legal component to every class we teach, because with each course, students get a bit more detail and are ready to hit the different high and low points of what the legalities of using force to defend your life are.

You also want a pre-paid legal plan so your lawyer covers the important points in your police statement. Your lawyer can decide if he wants to make a statement to the press. You don’t.

Rob- Where are we going for our next story?

Heather- We are headed to Fort Worth, Texas.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The 68 year old defender realized that he was a potential target, especially where he lived. He took the time, the money and he made the effort to get his carry license. That’s neither cheap nor easy in Chicago.
The defender presented his gun and fired it when he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation where he was being robbed by four, armed teenagers.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911 and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The story isn’t clear how the defender was able to draw and fire his gun before four, armed teenagers did. Did he use “tactical patience” or distractions? Did he fire from a retention position since he was probably very close to his robbers?
The defender only shot one of the armed teenagers. He’s very lucky that the other three, armed teenagers decided to flee rather than stay and shoot at him. Did the defender know how to engage multiple attackers?
The news report for this incident was extremely biased. It called the armed, teenage attacker a “victim” and the 68 year old defendant “the shooter”. Unfortunately in many parts of this country, the media tries self-defense cases online and in the papers long before they ever see a courtroom.

Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation.

Second Amendment Foundationhttps://www.saf.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home?And here https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12897077/Texas-woman-shot-dead-teenager-break-fort-worth.htmlIt is just after noon when you hear someone try to open one of the windows in your house. You and your four daughters are at home. You grab your gun. You think there are several people outside your home and you shout for them to leave. You call 911 and ask for the police. The police arrive and you give them a statement. The officers take photographs and then leave.

A half hour later, you hear someone force the window open in your four year old daughter’s bedroom. The intruder starts to enter your home and you shoot him. Again you call 911 for help. Police find a man outside. He has a bullet wound to the chest. EMTs pronounce him dead at the scene. Again, you give the police a statement.

You are not charged with a crime, but you get an eviction notice from the property management company that manages the apartments. They say to call the corporate office. The corporate office says to contact the local managers. You have to find a new place for you and your family to live.

Heather- Our defender’s apartment was broken into a few months earlier when the family wasn’t at home. The defender recognized a threat and bought a firearm to defend her family. During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders. Great job.

During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager who was forcing the window open. The armed mom again called 911 and again gave a statement to the police. Well done.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Heather- Texas is a Constitutional Carry state, so the defender didn’t need a Texas License to Carry. I want her to get one anyway because it shows the police that you have a clean criminal record. It identifies you as one of the good guys who carry a gun.

Texas is also a Castle Doctrine state so the defender is not required to retreat inside her home. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine so you have to know the laws in your state. Some states require that an intruder must be completely inside the four walls of the home in order to justify the use of deadly force. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force in your state.

Also, our defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this. You don’t give up your rights, particularly in Texas, if you get a rent subsidy.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Heather- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender had multiple home break-ins and she decided to buy a gun.
During the first attempted break-in that day, the defender successfully used verbal commands to stop multiple home intruders.
During the second attempted break-in that day, the defender shot the teenager forcing the window open.
The defender called 911 and gave a statement to the police both times.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Texas is a Castle Doctrine state. The defender is not required to retreat in states that have Castle Doctrine. Some states do not have Castle Doctrine.
Some states require that an intruder must be inside the four walls of the home in order to use deadly force. Some states do not require this. KNOW THE LAWS IN YOUR STATE. Take a class on the Use of Deadly Force or consult a lawyer.
The defender should consult a lawyer concerning keeping a gun in a subsidized rental property. There have been a number of lawsuits concerning this.
The defender gave an interview with local media- not a good idea. Did she consult her lawyer first? Probably not. Giving detailed statements and interviews to the media and even to the police is the job of a self-defense lawyer.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home?
You hear someone knocking on your door. It is almost 8 in the morning on a Saturday. You are not expecting visitors. You go to the door armed. You hear a woman calling for you to open the door. You open the door and the strange woman attacks you. You step back and defend yourself. Finally, you present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now she stops hitting you and you stop shooting.

You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- I like that the defender owned a firearm and had it nearby when they were at home. Ideally, it was on his body in a holster. I like that the defender’s windows and doors were locked. I like that he had the gun with him when he answered the door. He forced the criminal to climb the ladder of deterrence. Our defender tried to push her back outside. He tried to hit her after she hit him. Finally, he had to use his firearm to stop the attack.

The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting him. He called 911, stayed at the scene, and gave the police a statement.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Heather- Most deliberate criminals are intoxicated when they commit a burglary or robbery. We don’t know if this attacker was a criminal or if she was drunk or drugged from the night before.

We know we don’t want to open the door. You can talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so we want to stand to the side with a phone in our hand and the gun in the holster.

I also want you to have an outside security camera or a doorbell camera. Bonus points if you have one that has a speaker in it for two way communication with the person at the door.

If someone claims to need help, then offer to call the police, call for a tow truck, call a friend, but don’t open the door and hand them your phone.

Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.

Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just into the door jamb.

Again for bonus points, Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Fortunately, the defender was armed when they answered the door.
The defender was able to fight off the attacker and eventually shoot the attacker.
The defender stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting them.
The defender called 911 and gave the police a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

DON’T OPEN THE DOOR!! Never open the door to anyone you don’t know or trust. Answer a call at your door from a window or talk through a closed door without standing directly in front of the door. Criminals have been known to shoot through closed doors so stand to the side.
The defender was inconsistent- they were cautious enough to have a gun with them when they answered the call but they opened the door anyway!
Install a security camera or a doorbell camera.
If someone claims to need help, offer to call the police, towtruck, friend, etc. for them. Don’t open the door and hand them your phone.
Be prepared to defend yourself if an attacker kicks down your door. Carry your gun at home and learn how to shoot from a retention position.
Reinforce the lock and hinges of your entrance door with longer screws that go into the wood framing, not just the door jamb.
Install hurricane film on all glass windows within reach of the door lock.
Keep your windows/doors locked and carry your handgun with you at home. If your gun is not within arm’s length it’s useless. A small handgun in your pocket is worth more than a dozen rifles upstairs in a closet.

Exit-Rob- Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Heather- Look at my gun store website, Wolverinedefenseacademy.com.

I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter.

Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the episode webpage.

Heather- We share this podcast with you for free. Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Happy New Year, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 335 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse. We are joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval, and she has been busy.

Robyn at the RangeRobyn- Hi, Rob. I just got back from an instructor development class with Brian Hill of The Complete Combatant, and I’m leaving tomorrow to take a low-light class with Chris Cerino at Range Ready Studios near your neck of the woods. Not only do I love learning, but I appreciate showing my students that even instructors and professionals in the firearms industry have to carve out time for our own training. How about you?

Rob- I’ve been dry practicing. I’m still waiting to get my gun back from the shop. They say they have a new barrel on the way. I’m working on the FBI handgun qualification test.

We didn’t receive any new ratings or comments on iTunes or Facebook. I do want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. I’m retiring soon, so this can be yours.

Robyn- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, citizens defend themselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. In this episode, we’ll look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. Listeners can find links back to the original news articles on the podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Shady Cove, Oregon.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?You are at home in bed. It is 2 in the morning when you hear someone break into your home. You arm yourself. Your attacker moves toward you and you shoot them. You stop shooting when they stop advancing. You step back and call 911.

You put your gun away when police arrive. The police call for a life-flight helicopter. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene.

You give a statement to the police. You show them how the intruder broke into your home. You identify your attacker and tell the police that you have a protective order against them.

You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- Unfortunately this is a common scenario because that protective order is just a piece of paper. So let’s look at what else our defender did to protect herself. First, she recognized a problem and sought legal help. Getting the order of protection or restraining order was a good step because that gave her legal protection that the attacker would be breaking the law by contacting her or if he was even near her, for example, within 500 feet. But most importantly, she had a firearm and learned how to store it, access it, and use it if needed.

On the day of the attack, she had locked her doors. She reacted to the sound of a breakin. She armed herself. She defended herself when the attacker moved toward her. She stopped shooting when the attack stopped. She stayed at the scene and called for help. She put her gun away when the police arrived, and she gave them a brief statement.

Rob- Are there other things that weren’t mentioned in the news report that you’d like us to do if we have a stalker?

Robyn- There may have been other options that could have given her more time to wake up and respond. Maybe a doorbell cam, motion alarm, or barking dog could have given her a warning. Alarms are affordable and you can put a motion detector on your outside doors even if you are a renter. You could also even put a motion detector inside your home, as well as motion activated lights.

It’s also good for her to have a community of support. Hopefully she told her neighbors, friends, employer, pastor, and others that she had a stalker and had taken out a restraining order against him.

Of course, always keep your gun accessible to you and on-body in a holster whenever possible. Keep your doors and windows locked. When you’re in an interior room with a locking door, go ahead and lock it as well. Have the volume on your phone turned up so that you will hear it or be awakened by it when your security app discovers motion.

Most importantly, have a plan. Be able to arm yourself and move to a secure position in the room. Turn on the lights. Call 911. Shout that you are armed, and that you’ve called the police. Stop any attacker that comes through your bedroom door.

Because you’re at an increased risk, it is doubly important that you have a self-defense legal insurance plan. In this situation, it’s not just about surviving an attack in that moment; it’s surviving the legal process afterwards and ensuring that your future is safe as well.

So, make your legal plan part of your emergency action plan. Know what facts that you want to point out to officers. For example, that you shouted for the attacker to stop (so that your neighbors might be able to corroborate that they heard shouts before they heard shots, or that the alarm system may have recorded your shouts, or they may also be on the 911 call). Point out concise facts: this is the broken door where the attacker forced entry, this is the person against whom I have a restraining order, etc.

Rob- Why are those statements so important?

Robyn- The police are trying to figure out if there was a crime, and if so, then to collect evidence for a prosecution. You want to identify yourself, and give evidence that you are the defender rather than the attacker. The more obvious it is that you are the defender, then the more evidence the police will find to support your case.

That said, once you point out the evidence, then you remain silent until your attorney is with you.

Rob- There is a lot that we can learn here even if we don’t have a stalker. When do your students learn about defense in the home and about talking to the police?

Robyn- When someone begins contemplating a gun for home defense, whether it’s when they’re purchasing a new firearm or just making an emergency action plan, these are important factors that have to be considered from the beginning. Safe storage, accessibility, cover and concealment inside the home, deterring factors or barriers outside of the home, security features, lights, mirrors to view around corners… all of these things can be considered as part of the plan.

As for talking to the police, most of the time it’s important to learn what NOT to say as much as what to say. In that critical incident, a defender is going to be stirred with a lot of adrenaline and emotion. Training to stay mindful and focused throughout the entire process is critical.

Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to move on?

Robyn- Our second story was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

Locked her doors
Got a restraining order.
Bought a gun and learned how to use it.
Brought her gun when she investigated a noise.
Shot her attacker when she recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.
Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker.
Called 911, put her gun away so she met the police with empty hands.
She showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound.
The defender had a restraining order on this person. She should have told all of her friends and neighbors about it as a safeguard.
Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone.
Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home on Thanksgiving?You are at home in the evening. The news story doesn’t say if you have holiday guests with you, but your neighbors in the apartment complex are coming and going. It is about 7:30 when you hear a crashing sound. You grab your gun and go to investigate. You see an armed stranger standing in your apartment. You’re being robbed. He moves toward you. You shoot him until he stops advancing. You stop shooting. You back up and call 911 for help.

You open the apartment complex access door so the police can get inside. You put your gun away and set down the phone to talk to the officers. They police officers disarm your attacker. EMTs declare your attacker dead at the scene from gunshot wounds to the head. You give the police a statement. You show them your shattered front door. The officers check the video security files in the apartment complex. They assume your attacker snuck in behind another resident or behind a guest who was visiting for Thanksgiving.

The police take your firearm as evidence. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- Like our earlier story, our defender knew that she had a greater risk of a home invasion, so she was prepared. Philadelphia crime rates are very high, so she bought a gun and had it with her in her home, even on Thanksgiving. She locked her doors so she knew who was in her home. She responded to a strange sound rather than excusing the sound as a noise from the party next door.

She defended herself. She identified an armed, unavoidable threat, and she took action. Then stayed at the scene so the robber’s accomplice couldn’t change the evidence like grabbing the robber’s gun and running away with it. She got help on the way and she talked briefly with the officers when they arrived.

Rob- The story says that the defender shot the attacker in the head. Talk about that.

Robyn- Best practice is to aim for the largest target so we’re most likely to get the hits we need. On a human threat, that would be placing your sights at the heart/lungs area. However, your gun is going to be in your line of sight, which means you’re going to aim at what you’re looking at.

In force-on-force scenarios, students often put rounds into the attacker’s hands because they are focused on the gun or other weapon. If the attacker had his gun in front of his face, then the defender may have shot towards the attacker’s gun and made impact into the head. That might have been where her eyes went in a moment of stress. There are times, however, when aiming at a smaller target like the head might be a better option than the torso. It’s good to take training classes to learn different scenarios and how to manage them.

Rob- What would you tell your students to do as they clean up after Thanksgiving?

Robyn- Get used to wearing your firearm in a holster on your body, and keep it on you while you’re going about your day… even as you do Thanksgiving dishes or put up your holiday decorations. The holidays bring out a lot of emotion in people, and can be difficult for some, leading to drinking in excess or substance abuse. This can lead to increased crime, so be prepared.

Encourage your adult family members to also carry and be trained. Concealed carry should be a nonissue at your home, so that your guests know that you are armed, and that they can feel comfortable coming to your house while they are armed. Make sure you know the laws of your area so that you are in compliance as you move in and out of your home. If you need a carry permit to walk your guests out to their car, get one so that your lifestyle isn’t interrupted and you don’t have to take off your gun to do it.

As we’ve said, have an emergency action plan. Know where you can find cover, or retreat to a back room and lock the door. We don’t know the precise details of this attack. Maybe she was shooting from her kitchen and it was safer to use the kitchen doorway as concealment than to retreat to the bedroom. Move out of sight (concealment), and behind something bulletproof (cover), so you are hard to shoot.

Criminals can often get through security doors.

Rob- How many of your students have a spare gun to use the next day?

Robyn- If you use your firearm in an incident, it’s going to be seized into evidence by the police. Have another firearm to use for your concealed carry. Don’t become complacent and think that lightning can’t strike you twice. Always be ready to protect yourself and those you love.

Rob- Where are we headed next?

Robyn- Our third story happened in Granada Hills, California.

Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership

DRGOhttps://drgo.us/

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

Bought a gun and learned how to use it. Hopefully he had a plan.
Brought his gun when he investigated a noise.
Shot the intruder when he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.
Shot the intruder in the head. Was that intentional or by accident? Best practices says we aim for upper center chest unless the bad guy is wearing body armor. Then we shoot for the head.
Stopped shooting when the attack stopped. Did not chase the attacker.
Called 911, put his gun away so he met the police with empty hands.
He showed the broken door to the police and gave a statement.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

- “Anyone. Anywhere. Anytime!” Criminals don’t take Thanksgiving off.
Best practices says that if a person is alone and they think they are in danger, they should retreat to a defensible room, lock and barricade the doors, turn on the lights, call 911 and prepare to defend from cover or concealment. Going out to investigate means you are walking into an unknown situation with an unknown number of attackers. You don’t know where they are and if they are armed (usually they are.) Clearing a house by yourself is very dangerous and tactically unsound.
Motion-detection cameras with sound cost less than $100. They are good for interiors as well as exteriors. Some even connect to your smart phone.
Don’t forget to reinforce the home’s perimeter, doors and windows. Longer screws, larger striker plates and hurricane film on glass are cheap insurance policies that pay off bigtime.
The police took the defender’s gun as evidence. This is a common practice. If there’s a trial, the defender may not see his gun again for months or even years. You need a back-up gun since the bad guy or his friends may come to visit you long before your gun is returned. And remember, many states require waiting periods or re-application of FOID cards before purchasing another gun. “Two is one and one is none.”

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? (Youtube video)You’re at home. It is about 8pm and your security alarm says there was movement outside. You check the app on your phone and see three young men walking in your backyard. They are wearing hoodies, masks and gloves. You see them try to open your doors and windows. You try to call 911, but you can’t dial as you watch the intruders. You grab your gun. You see the intruders outside your back door. You move toward the door and shout at them. Then you open the door. Your attackers run when they hear the door open. You go outside and chase the robbers out of your yard.

You go back inside and call 911. You are transferred to a non-emergency number. The police pick up the line after 45 minutes. You ask to file a report. Police never come to your address to retrieve the video or take a report.

You look online and see a half dozen similar attacks to yours in the last month. The news calls them the Dinner Time Robberies.

Tag- No Shots Fired

Robyn- It’s good that our defender had the alarms, the app on his phone, and his firearm. I like our defender had a plan and a gun in his gun safe. I love that he had a security system and his doors and windows were locked. It was excellent that he paid attention when he heard the alarm. I’m glad he tried to call 911 for help. He shouted for the intruders to leave.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Robyn- I would first like for him to not open the door. Keep a barrier between you and an attacker at all times. However, there are several teachable moments here.

There are always things that you discover when you walk through your plan. Do you have your phone with you? It takes you time to open your app on your phone. What if you discover a problem and your gun safe is at the other end of the house? It takes time to open your gun safe. Do you have your gun on your hip? Can you watch your security system and does the security system have a panic button that calls 911 for you? What options do you have for connecting with 911 without losing visibility through your app?

Troubleshoot your plan so you don’t discover these things when there are three robbers at your back door.

Rob- What else could we do to stay safe in our home?

Robyn- I loved that the defender had over a dozen cameras outside. Let’s also turn on the outside lights. Let’s grab our gun and shout that we’ve called the police. Stay away from the windows where the bad guys can see you and shoot at you.

And again, don’t open the door! If they break in, then you are positioned to defend yourself. But don’t approach them, don’t chase them, don’t run across the street in your underwear with a gun in your hand. That is what aggressors do. Don’t act like a bad guy; be a responsible defender.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Robyn- After you are safe, then call your lawyer. Do not provide extra information to the police. Do not contact the media. Leave that to your legal team to address.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Shelby, North Carolina.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

Had a plan. He had a security system with multiple cameras/lights.
Paid attention when his security app notified him of movement.
Took his gun out of his safe and was prepared to use it.
Tried to call 911 but his security app locked him out. Even an old, unused cell phone can be used to call 911 so keep one charged at all times where you think you may need it.
Shouted at the intruders to leave.
Left a message with his police department about the incident.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

According to the news report, the defender opened his door and pursued the intruders with his gun. BAD IDEA! If he had used his gun, he would have been seen as the aggressor. And he also put himself in grave danger. He had no way of knowing how many other bad guys there were, where they were or if they were armed. He could have walked into an ambush.
The defender gave a video interview to the TV station. This is very dangerous. Did he check with his lawyer first? The news video included showing the defender leaving his house and running after the intruders while he was holding a gun. In many jurisdictions, this could be considered assault with a deadly weapon by the defender! He could be criminally charged for this.
The defender had multiple cameras but he didn’t use them correctly. He followed the bad guys around his house where they could have shot him through a window or door. If you can see them, they can also see you. He should have retreated to a defensible room, barricaded the door, turned on the lights, called 911 and covered the door from concealment or cover. If the intruders broke through his room’s door he would be able to defend himself from only one bad guy at a time as they came through the “fatal funnel” door. One defender can stop many intruders with this tactic.
The defender had a gun but he had to unlock a safe in order to get at it when he needed it. POGO- Pant On, Gun On.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?You’re walking down the street. The sunset was about an hour ago so it is fairly dark. You see one man walk up to a man who is standing on the sidewalk. The first man pulls a gun from his pocket and shoots the man who was standing there. The victim puts up his arms and is shot in the face and in the shoulder as he turns.

You have your North Carolina concealed carry permit. You are armed. You shoot the attacker until he drops his firearm. You stop shooting when the attack stops. You call 911 and ask for help.

You stay at the scene. You reholster your firearm before the officers arrive. You give a brief statement to the officers. You show them your identification and your carry permit. EMTs take both of the wounded men to the hospital for treatment. The attacker was shot five times.

Later, the police reported that your attacker was the aggressor. Warrants have been issued for felony assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill, inflicting serious injury, possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, and assault by pointing a gun.

Robyn- It’s good that the defender had her carry permit and she had her carry gun on even though she was simply walking down the street. She paid attention to the people around her as she walked. She recognized that the first man represented an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to the person who didn’t start the fight.

She shot her attacker and it sounds like all of her shots were hits. That tells us that she trained and practiced fairly often. She recognized when to stop shooting. She called for help and had empty hands when the officers arrived.

Because she had her carry permit, the arriving officers knew that she had a clean criminal record. That made it much easier for the police to figure out who the bad guys were and who the good guys were.

Rob- We often tell people to use verbal commands. Is that appropriate in this case?

Robyn- What is moral to do, what is legal to do, and what are you willing to do? Maybe you’re willing to let a victim be shot to death until you’ve tried verbal commands. Maybe you identified the legal requirements to use lethal force and shoot your attacker from across the street. Maybe verbal commands would have put you at greater risk.

Everything happens in context. You are not required to say anything as long as there is a lethal threat against an innocent victim.

Rob- We don’t get to practice recognizing those situations very often. How can your students know what to do in public?

Robyn- You’re body can’t go where your mind hasn’t been before. You need to study armed defense. You need to imagine what you might see and consider what you might do. You can do that alone, with a training partner, or in a class.

You practice now so you won’t freeze or panic. It is better to practice when we have time.

Rob- What else do you see?

Robyn- Defense of a third party is always risky. You don’t know the full story. You don’t know what the victim will say to the police. You don’t even know if there are more parties out of your view.

The news doesn’t say if the defender moved to cover. That should be part of your training, to be able to move to safety and put barriers between you and any additional threat.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

The defender:

Had a carry permit and a gun with him when he was walking on the street after dark.
Paid attention when he heard two men arguing.
Recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat.
Shot the attacker five times (good accuracy) after he saw the attacker shoot the victim.
Stopped shooting after the attacker dropped his gun.
Stayed at the scene, called 911, holstered his gun and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T.)

Did the defender have a flashlight with him? Did he know how to use it properly? Always carry a gun, ammo, phone and a flashlight. Carrying a knife is also a good idea.
This is a third party defense which can be very risky. The defender shot the attacker assuming that he was a bad guy. He gambled his life, health, wealth and freedom on his ability to come to the correct conclusion without complete information. What if the attacker had been a plain-clothes cop making an arrest and the victim had made a furtive movement? Luckily for the defender, that wasn’t the case here.
Did the defender move to cover or concealment before shooting? The number one rule of self-defense is not to get shot. If you interrupt a criminal during the commission of a crime, they will probably shoot at you as well. Prepare for it.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 334 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Andee Reardon. A lot of things have happened in Maine since we’ve talked. Tell us about it.

Andee ReardonAndee- Hey Rob! It’s been a while. I’ve been super busy with life and meeting the demand for training here in Maine after the active shooter situation in Lewiston. There’s a lot of people waking up to the fact that they are their own first responder and they want to be prepared to protect themselves. I had the honor to work with one of the women who survived the attack to teach her a handgun lesson and help her find the right firearm for her. She said she never wants to feel helpless again.

How about you?

Rob- I try and work out every day. I know you do too. Being fit lets us pay attention when we’re tired.

How do we fit a gun to a new gun owner? Is it like a shoe salesman? Is it like an optometrist, the gun on your left, or the gun on your right?

I’ve been dry practicing and I’m still waiting to get my gun from ATEI in Michigan. We didn’t have any new ratings or comments on iTunes. Again, I want to thank Roger for his help this week. We’re still looking for listeners who want to write or edit this podcast. All this can be yours.

Andee- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent news stories to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at work?You are working in a liquor store. It is late on a weekday night and you’re about to close the store. Two men come inside. One of them draws a gun and demands the money in the cash register. You back away. One of the robbers hits you in the head with a bottle. You present your firearm and shoot at your attackers until they run. You stay inside and call 911 for help.

EMTs take you to the hospital in serious condition. Later, you give a statement to the police. It isn’t clear if you have security video. 8 liquor stores were robbed on the northside in the last month. Most stores are closing earlier.

You are not charged with a crime.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

- The defender knew that he had a dangerous job. He probably also knew that other stores in his area had been robbed so he decided to have a gun at work.
The defender recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation.
The defender stayed in the fight even after he was injured.He presented his gun and shot at the attackers.
The defender stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store.The defender did not chase the attackers. He called 911 for help.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

The defender went through the process of getting a FOID card, buying a gun and learned how to use it. Maybe he had a license to carry as well.
Hopefully, the defender had a plan since his job put him in danger on a daily basis. Did he visualize numerous possible scenarios in his mind in order to build his “Library of Responses”? That’s a critical step in inoculating himself to the effects of adrenaline and stopping the brain from freezing in a crisis. Creating a defensive plan in the middle of an attack is next to impossible.
Could the defender have used “Tactical Patience” or distractions to keep from getting into a hand-to-hand confrontation? Could he have thrown the money on the floor or knocked a bottle off the counter as a distraction?
Did the defender move as he drew his gun? The first rule of self-defense is not to get shot.
Did the defender know close quarters techniques including retention shooting?
Did the defender carry his gun on him or was the gun staged under the cash register? Why not both? Carry a small, highly concealable micro semi-automatic or revolver and also have a larger, double-stack pistol or short-barrel shotgun under the counter or in the back room. Multiple guns gives you many options. “Two is one, and one is none.”
Once the robbers left, the clerk should have: locked all doors, moved any customers to safety and turned off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends wouldn’t have easy targets. The threat is not over until the cops arrive.
Make sure your hands are empty and visible when the police arrive. Holding a gun or a cell phone can get you shot.

Andee- The defender probably saw the news and knew that other stores in his area had been robbed. Before the attack, he got his firearms owners ID card so he could go buy a gun. The night that he was attacked, he recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation when the robbers presented a firearm and then hit him in the head with a bottle. If you doubt how serious that can be, then fill an empty wine bottle with water and go hit the side of a 2×4 with the side of the bottle. Look at the bruise on the wood and then figure out what that will do to your skull and to your brain.

The defender stayed in the fight even after he was hit in the head. I teach my students, when it comes to life or death, quitting means game over. You fight and stay in it until you are safe.

He presented his gun and shot at his attackers. He then stopped shooting when the attackers turned and ran out of the store. (This is a very important piece if you want to be seen as the good guy in the eyes of the law. You MUST stop shooting the moment the threat has ceased.)

Rather than chase the bad guys, he stayed inside and called 911 for help. (You’re not superman or a police officer, it’s not your job to catch the bad guy.)

Rob- Are there other things you want us to do that were not mentioned in the news reports?

Andee- It is hard to get your carry permit in Chicago. It’s worth the trouble. I want him to have his carry permit so he can carry all the time, even when he carries trash out to the dumpster late at night.

I want you to have a plan. It is like having a cheat sheet of options. Part of having a plan is also establishing limits that say what you’ll do and when you’ll do it. When will I yell stop when two customers come in looking like robbers? When will I present my gun and where will I move? What will I say? You have to walk through that plan often enough that your reactions are a habit rather than a thought. Situational training doesn’t have to always take place at the range. Walking through a scenario in your head creates neural pathways in your brain, allowing you to react quicker if you’re presented with a similar scenario in real life.

Rob- Isn’t walking through your place of work the best simulator we could ask for?

Andee- I can be, particularly if you have a co-worker who works through the scenario with you.

Another thing I think of reading this story is “be careful about letting people into your danger zone” One of the attackers was close enough to hit the defender with a bottle. We should be very careful as to who we let in our bubble. I often show my students in class how fast someone can get to you from 25 feet away, about the same time it takes someone skilled to draw their firearm. Situational awareness should be warning us whenever someone is within that distance. We should be prepared to “move off the line” if the threat makes a charge. Could the defender have dropped the money tray and a bottle on the floor and backed away? That gives him a moment as the armed attackers are distracted.

If you have to present your firearm, then I want you to move as you do. Don’t just stand in the open. Find cover.

I want you to have close quarters practice so you can shoot without moving your firearm to full extension. That is accurate enough at short distances, and you don’t hand your gun to your attackers. You should practice hand-to-hand self defense techniques that will give you space to safely draw without your attacker taking your gun from you.

I also want you to practice shooting from different positions. Learn to shoot while you’re crouched behind your sales counter. Can you make your counter bulletproof by covering the outside face with brick or stone?

We also have to talk about the elephant in the room. Was the defender armed, or was the gun under the counter? I want you armed so you are protected. If you want to put a larger firearm under the counter that is fine too. You can also cache some non-lethal options like pepper spray are a great addition to your self defense tool box.

Once the robbers left, the clerk still had some work to do. I want you to lock all doors. Move the customers to the back of the store and turn off all the interior lights so the returning attackers or their friends don’t have easy targets.

Make sure your hands are completely empty when you unlock the door to let the police inside. And then make sure you and your witnesses know what to say, and what not to say.

Rob- That is a lot to remember.

Andee- It is, but you don’t learn it all at once. You are learning reactions rather than thoughts, and once the bad guys leave then you have a moment to think about what to do next. Even then, you’re choosing from a menu you’ve already rehearsed.

Rob- We’re at home, at work, at school or out in public. It seems that we need a separate plan for each one.

Andee- Yes and no. Most of the parts are the same or similar. What might change is our decision points. We’re more alarmed to a stranger walking into our home than we are to a stranger walking into a retail store.

Rob- We’ve said a lot. Are you ready to go on?

Andee- Our second story happened in Los Angeles, California.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you arrive home?You just drove home and closed the gate behind you. It is 7:30 in the evening and you walk up to your front door. Two men run up behind you. One of them pokes you in the back with his gun. You are carrying a soft drink cup in your hand. You throw your soft drink into the robber’s face and you step aside. You draw your firearm and shoot at your attackers. They run. The narrow walkway leading to your front door gives you no place to hide.

You don’t chase your attackers down the street. You go inside and ask your wife to call 911. You also check on your daughter. Both of them are unhurt.

You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You show them your carry permit and the home security video of the attack. They see your attackers jump over your front wall after you parked your car.

You are not charged with a crime.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked.
When he realized that he was in an immediate, lethal and unavoidable situation he used throwing his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. These actions broke the attacker’s OODA loop and gave the defender time to draw his gun.
The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911 while he checked on his family.
The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

According to the news report, the defender was using earbuds when he was attacked. This reduced his situational awareness to only what he could see in front of him and gave the attackers the opportunity to put a gun to his back without being detected.
When did the defender pull the trigger? Before or after the attackers turned and ran off? Did the attackers shoot back at the defender as they were running away? These are critical questions that need to be answered in order to determine if the defender’s shooting at the attackers was legally justified.
Did the defender consult a lawyer before talking to the police? He should have.
According to the news report, the defender made multiple statements to the media. This can determine whether you go to trial or not. Best practices says that you only give detailed statements to the police or the media through your lawyer. Whatever you say to the police or the media can be used against you.

Andee- It isn’t directly mentioned in the story, but it implies that the defender’s front door was locked. That kept the attackers from simply pushing their way inside. The defender had a license to carry and he had his gun on him when he was attacked. I don’t like that he was distracted by earbuds, criminals are looking for targets who are unaware and earbuds put a big red target on your head. Don’t do that. Also, don’t go to condition white (unaware) as soon as you get home, you’re not home safe until you’re inside and safe.

The defender recognized an attack and threw his drink at the attackers as a distraction. He also stepped aside. Those actions broke the attacker’s plans and gave the defender time and space to draw his gun and shoot.

The defender did not chase the attackers. He went inside and had his wife call 911. He checked on his family and holstered his gun.

The defender showed the police his home security video. Whenever possible, give the police a copy of your video and not the original. Video evidence gets damaged and misplaced so you need the original as a back-up for your lawyer.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Andee- The defender was startled and waited to shoot. We have several drills where we turn, present, and shoot. Like I said before, we need new habits.

The defender talked to the news reporters and I want you not to do that. Talk to your lawyer and let your lawyer decide if he wants to talk to reporters.

This defender has a long legal road ahead of him, we wish him the best and are happy he survived.

Rob- Where are we headed next?

Andee- Our third story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado.

https://fastercolorado.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?https://www.inquirer.com/crime/philadelphia-pizza-shop-shooting-robbery-20231105.html

You work for your dad at a small pizza restaurant. It is Saturday night and it is dark outside. The evening rush has slowed down but there is still a lot to do. Two men come in and you get ready to take their order. Most people want their order To-Go. These two are wearing hoodies and masks. They are also wearing rubber surgical gloves. One of them draws a gun from his pants and shoots into the ceiling. The armed man moves behind the counter and pushes you out of the way to get to the cash register. You have no place to run.

You draw your legally concealed firearm and shoot your attacker until he drops his gun. Now the attacker falls down. The other attacker runs from the store and you don’t shoot him.

The news story doesn’t explain how you get out from behind the counter, but you stay at the scene and call 911. You put your gun away. You give a statement to the police. You identify other witnesses. They agree that the robber shot first.

Your attacker died at the scene with several shots to the upper chest and head. Police are looking for security video from other stores in the area. You are not charged, but the police take both your gun and the attacker’s gun as evidence.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

- Pizza shops get robbed a lot. Fortunately, the defender was armed when he was robbed. POGO (Pants On… Gun On.)
It sounds like the defender got out of the robber’s way and waited until the robber’s attention was on the money before drawing his gun. Then he shot the robber in the upper chest and the head. The goal is to neutralize the threat.
The defender was trapped behind the counter and could not move out of the way so he shot the robber until he dropped his gun and also collapsed. Sometimes this only takes one shot. Other times it might take many shots. You shoot until the threat is over.
The defender did not shoot at the other robber who was running away.
The defender did not pursue the second robber.
The defender stayed at the scene, called 911, put his gun away, gave a statement to the police and pointed out witnesses.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

Most pizza shops and stores have more than one employee working at any one time. They should all be armed and have a plan. Two defenders working as a team are six times more effective than a single one.
The defender had his gun on him, not under the counter. Carrying your gun means it’s always available when you need it. If you store your gun under the counter, maybe you can get to it and maybe you can’t.
The defender did not try to use verbal commands. There is a time and a place for verbal commands but this situation wasn’t one of them. Once the bad guy’s gun is in his hand, the defender has to shoot first and move if possible.
The defender should have moved any customers to safety, locked all doors and moved away from lights and windows in case the other robber returned or if they had friends outside.
Hopefully, the defender has a back-up gun because he may not see his gun for months or even years. When the police take a gun for evidence in a trial, it doesn’t get returned until the trial is over. The criminal attackers will be out on bail long before the defender’s gun is returned so the defender may be defenseless. “Two is one and one is none.”

Andee- Shops that are open to the public late at night are at increased risk of robbery. This defender recognized the risks of running a family shop in Philadelphia and decided to go armed. He had his firearm on his person when the attackers entered the store.

We haven’t seen the video, but the defender could have been waiting his turn. The robber already had a gun in his hands. He shot into the ceiling so that everyone knew he was armed. The defender was trapped behind the counter by the robbers. It sounds like he waited until the robber was looking at the cash register. That is when he drew his gun and started firing. It is good that he didn’t try verbal commands.

Our defender kept firing until the threat was gone. That could be one shot or the entire magazine. The defender did not shoot the other attacker who was running away.

The defender stayed at the shop and called 911 for help.

Rob-Are there other things you want your small business owners to do?

Andee- I’d like all of your employees to be armed. I’d like you to have a video system that shows your attackers and your defense.

Like the previous story, I want you to move your customers to safety, lock all your doors and move everyone away from lights and windows.

I also hope you have another gun you can bring to work tomorrow.

Rob- I have a problem with some new gun owners. How do you convince gun owners that run a business that their gun isn’t magic?

Andee- I try to convey how important training is. Like driving a stick shift, it’s going to take a while to operate it smoothly, in different environments and in different scenarios. Guns are the same. It’s an acquired and perishable skill. You must practice and train to keep it up.

I don’t know it all and I love being a student when I get the chance. I think everyone should take a training course every so often, regardless of your skill. You can always learn something new.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Andee- Our fourth story took place in Houston, Texas.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?You are part of the security team at church. A member of the church called the police and also called the church saying that someone had threatened the pastor that day. Another church member told you the suspect was outside in the parking lot. You grab a rifle and go outside to investigate. You see the suspect. You shout for him to stop. He runs at you with something in his hand. You shoot him twice until he stops. You stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help.

You put your gun down when officers arrive. Officers find a vape in the attacker’s hand, but no weapon. You give a statement to the officers. So do the other members of the security team. The officers collect statements from the attacker’s family and acquaintances that confirm the threats against the pastor and the church.

Your attacker was the son of a church member. He was arrested yesterday for stabbing a sword through a trailer. Police found psychotropic drugs in the attacker’s truck.

You are not charged with a crime.

What did our defender do correctly?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

The defender was part of a church security team that worked well together to point out a possible threat.
The defender encountered the suspect and tried using verbal commands but they failed.
The suspect charged the defender who shot the suspect twice.
The defender stopped shooting when the threat was over. He called 911.
He put his gun down and gave a statement to the police.

What would you tell your students to do (that the defender should have done)?

(Bullet points by Roger T. Please do not make changes to these notes.)

Did the defender carry non-lethal weapons? Could he have stopped the attacker with pepper spray or by hitting him with the rifle butt?
Was the suspect charging at the defender an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat? Could the defender articulate his reasons for using deadly force? Was disparity of force involved?
Any threats the suspect made to others prior to the time he was shot do not justify use of deadly force by the defender.
Did the defender misinterpret the vape device in the suspect’s hand as a weapon? Maybe the defender could have taken cover behind a car and waited to find out if the suspect had a weapon or not. Did the vape device look like a gun or a knife?
How far away was the suspect when the defender shot him? Did the defender know about the Tueller drill?
Could the defender have brought other members of the security team with him when he went to investigate?

Andee- Way before that Sunday, the church thought that they might have a problem someday and they put a team in place. The security team had a way to collect information from the public and the police. The defender tried to use verbal commands when he saw the suspect. I don’t know if any other church members were outside, but I would have preferred everyone to lock themselves in the church and call the police. That may not have been feasible.

The defender did not let the suspect get within hand-to hand range. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped advancing.

The defender called 911 for help and put his gun down when the police arrived. He also gave a brief statement to the police.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Andee- If you have self-defense insurance, ask them if you are covered if you’re part of a church security team. If you don’t have it, time to consider it.

You have to explain why you had to close the distance to the suspect in the parking lot. You have to explain why he was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to innocent people. Not what you feared might happen later, but the threats you saw in that moment. That is a tough call and you absolutely must walk through those situations before they happen or you will freeze.

There is no doubt that the attacker meant ill will and was disturbed. Was he a lethal threat to any particular individual before you pulled the trigger? This could be the difference between going home and going to jail.

Rob- You phrased it differently, but those are the same requirements that I need to show if I use a firearm at home.

Andee- They are, but you know the people you expect to see in your home. Shopkeepers and church staff expect to see strangers every day, often strangers with problems. They have to show even more restraint.

It’s very important that your church security team knows more than just how to use a firearm… they should be training in emergency 1st aid and how to deescalate situations with verbal judo. They should also have a lockdown plan in place so if something is happening outside, they can stay safe until police arrive.

What a lot of people don’t know is, a majority of church shootings are not hate crimes or religion driven, they are domestic crimes. Family members attack other family members, ex husbands mad at a church that helped his ex wife leave, stuff like that. Churches should have a safety ministry for these people who are in danger and a safety plan should their stalker show up at church.

Many women are afraid to tell their pastor what’s going on at home, so having a safety and security ministry trained to help them and being open about these issues will not only be a great asset to the community, but it helps keep the other members of the church safe too.

Something I learned training with Col Grossman, a lot of church shootings happen in the parking lot. Security teams who only prepare for emergencies indoors are only half prepared.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Andee Reardon, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Andee- Look for me at East Coast School of Safety and on my facebook and Instagram pages with the same name.

Rob- After you look at Andee articles, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Andee- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Listen Notes.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Happy Thanksgiving, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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The post Episode 318 with Ben Branam appeared first on Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast.

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The post Episode 317 with Amanda Suffecool appeared first on Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast.

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 316 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. Mister Simon, what has been keeping you so busy?

Tony SimonTony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been hosting diversity shoots, and I went to Kevin Dixie’s event. How about you?

Rob- I finally got to take some training. I went to Phoenix, Arizona for a three day training course. The class is sponsored by FASTER Arizona. It teaches armed school staff and church security officers to be first responders.

I’ve been carrying a gun with a red-dot sight for the last year. It decided to stop feeding reliably at the end of the first day. I brought a backup gun with iron sights. I did not qualify as a firearms instructor, but I did qualify at the level of an Arizona law enforcement officer by shooting the state’s qualifying exam.

There were two days of range training and a third day split between force-on-force scenarios and trauma care. When I got back, I wrote about the class on my SlowFacts blog.

Tony- Pastor Mel wrote some of our stories last week and this week. Thank you, Pastor.

We received two ratings and two new comments on iTunes. (is 349,191).

Rob- A listener who calls themselves MogulUp said-

This podcast allows you to imagine how you would react in a self defense situation. You can learn from what others have done right and what they have done wrong. I love to listen with my brother Chris.

Another listener said they have been watching the podcast for a while. I’m not sure if we’re talking about the same podcast.

Tony- Probably a wrong number.

Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home?

You are a 77 year old man at home on a Wednesday evening. It is 6pm when you hear the sound of breaking glass and the sound of someone moving around your home. You’re armed. You walk toward the noise. You see someone standing in the center of your kitchen and you shout for him to stop.

The intruder moves toward you. You present your firearm and shoot your intruder until he turns away. The intruder runs back toward the kitchen window the way he entered your home. He leaves headfirst.

You call 911 and ask for the police. You put your firearm away when the police arrive. You give the officers a brief statement and show them what happened. They find a bullet hole in the kitchen wall. You missed your attacker even though he was only 5 yards away from you.

You are not charged with a crime.

Tony- It sounds like the defender was armed at home. I like that his doors and windows were locked. He recognized an immediate threat of what I assume was a much younger man breaking into his home and confronting him. Our defender tried to use verbal commands to diffuse the situation. When that didn’t work, he defended himself. He stopped shooting when the attacker turned and ran. The defender called for help and gave a statement to the police. Well done.

Rob- Are there other things you want your students to do that were not mentioned in the news report?

Tony- Have a plan so you make good decisions. Avoid conflict with an intruder because you don’t know how many of them are in your home, and you don’t know how they are armed. It sounds like this homeowner lived alone so he could have stayed in his room and called 911.

Lots of people who carry a firearm at home never learn how to present their firearm from a holster. They count on luck, and that is all that saved this homeowner. Learn to present. Learn to hit your target.

Rob- Tony, would you even be on your sights at 5 yards?

Tony- At 5 yards you’re sight picture is the silhouette of your firearm covering the target. You don’t need a perfect sight picture to achieve hits at that range.

Rob- When do your students get to present from a holster in a hurry?

Tony- We have presentations from the holster in our defensive classes. These classes require a basic understanding of safety and firearms manipulation. It’s usually after they have taken a basic handgun class.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Tony- You want a lawyer to fill out the police report for you. Buy insurance if you don’t have a self-defense lawyer on retainer.Rob- Anything else?

Tony- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Edinburg, Texas.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home?

You are a mom at home with your children on Tuesday evening. It is about 9 at night when you hear someone break into your home through the garage. You gather your children with you in your bedroom and you lock the bedroom door. You grab your gun and your phone. You call 911 and ask for help.

The intruder tries to get into your bedroom. You shout that you’re armed. You tell him that you’ve called the police. The intruder bangs against your door again and you shoot your door near the doorknob. Now your intruder runs away.

You stay on the call with the police dispatcher. You put your gun away when the police arrive. The news stories aren’t clear how the police entered your home. You give the officers a brief statement. The police find your attacker about a hundred yards away from your home with a gunshot wound on his left arm.

Your attacker is taken to jail and booked on charges of burglary of a habitation. His bond is set at $750-thousand dollars. Later, you saw his mugshot in the news from a prior arrest. His head and neck are covered in tattoos.

You are not charged with a crime, and your children are uninjured.

Tony- I’m glad her doors were locked. That bought the family time to retreat. She collected her family behind a locked door. Great job. She called the police and had them on the way. She stayed at the scene and didn’t chase the bad guy down the street. She gave a statement to the police. I’m glad her family was safe.

Rob- Is there more you want us to do?

Tony- If she had a plan and had rehearsed it with her children then she might have done a better job. Get your children behind the bed or into the master bathroom and out of sight. You want to be behind furniture so you are hard to see and hard to hurt. Keep your gun aimed at the doorway and wait until the attacker breaks the door before you shoot him.

That is a lot to think about when you are frightened. That is why you must walk through your plan with your family several times so all of you know what to do.

Rob- When do your students learn about making a home safety plan?

Tony- We discuss home safety in our basic class if that’s the reason a student is taking our class. I definitely attempt to get self defense information to students that say they are taking the class because they have immediate concerns about their safety.

Rob- Talk to me about storing firearms at home to protect my family.

Tony- You might not have time to run and get your gun. In addition, your firearms must be secured so your children do not have access to them. I’d like you to take a class and carry your defensive handgun on your body. Start doing that at home. Then, I want you to get your permit and carry all the time. Even if your state has Constitutional Carry I’d like you to have a permit. The reason being is you have a license to show that you went above what was necessary to carry. This could discourage a prosecutor from charging you or a jury from convicting you. I’m not a lawyer they may think differently. With many self defense coverage plans speaking to a lawyer for free is part of the plan.

Rob- Why is it a bad idea to shoot through a door?

Tony- Most of the time, yes. It’s a bad idea. You don’t know who is on the other side of the door. You hope you are shooting the intruder and not a neighbor or a relative. In addition, you don’t know where your bullet will stop if you miss.

Rob- Where are we headed for our next story?Tony- Our third story happened in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership

https://drgo.us/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?

You are working behind the counter at a Dollar General store. A man comes up to the cash register. You scan the item and the man argues about the price. He tells you to come outside and he’ll beat you up. You stay inside the store. The customer walks to the door then turns around with a gun in his hand. He points his gun at you.

You’re armed too. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker in the chest. He runs outside. He crawls into his car and drives away. You stay at the scene and call 911. You give the police a brief statement, and other witnesses tell the police what happened as well.

Your attacker crashed his car on the way to the hospital. Another driver delivered him to the emergency room. Your attacker was in critical condition for several days. He says he doesn’t remember being shot.

Your attacker was taken from the hospital and charged with aggravated assault with a gun and possession of a gun by a convicted felon. He is held on a $95 thousand dollar bond.

You are not charged.

Tony- Thank you for being armed at work. Thank you for staying in the store and not going outside. Good job defending yourself, defending other employees and customers. I’m glad our good guy called 911.

Tony- I’m going to jump right into the part where we want him to do more. If this happens to you, then ask everyone in the store to call 911 for you. Ask if anyone is injured. Then, you lock the front door and call 911 yourself.

We haven’t talked about it, but a lot of these assailants are either high on drugs or drunk on alcohol when they pull a gun. We can’t expect reasonable behavior from them like leaving the customers alone.

Explain to the customers that there was a man with a gun outside and you’d like everyone to stay inside and away from the windows until the police say it is safe to go leave.

You can’t force them to stay inside. That is kidnapping, but you can beg them to stay inside for their own safety.

Rob- How do we get that smart after defending ourselves?

Tony- If your employer allows you to carry at work, develop a plan for armed defense. Walk through your safety plan with your employer. Hopefully you do it together with all the employees.

Rob- Where would I learn about defending myself at work?

Tony- That would come after your concealed carry class. The follow on classes and the legal use of lethal force will start to cover defense at work. Ideally you can take some force-on-force training too.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Tony- Our fourth story took place in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you drive?

You are a 27 year old woman. You’re driving through downtown traffic on a Wednesday. It is about 5:30 when a stranger runs up to the passenger side of your car. He smashes the passenger side rear window with a crowbar.

You’re armed. You shoot your attacker. He runs back to his car and drives off. You drive to your relatives house nearby. Now you feel safe enough to call the police. You show the police your identification and your carry permit. You show them the crowbar in the back seat of your car. The police find one shell casing from your firearm inside your car. You give the police a brief statement that describes what happened.

Police find your attacker at a nearby intersection. The woman who was driving with him ran from the scene. EMTs take your attacker to a nearby hospital with a single gunshot wound to the groin.

You are not charged.

Tony- Our defender had her carry permit. She was armed. She recognized a lethal threat. She defended herself and then moved to safety. She called the police and asked for help. Well done. There isn’t a lot more I’d ask my students to do.

Rob- Why was a crowbar a lethal threat?

Tony- A stranger broke into your car unprovoked. He smashed a back window. That means he can enter your car behind you with a crowbar. He can hit you from behind and you’re defenseless unless you have a gun and can stop him.

Rob- Is breaking the windows of my car the same as breaking the windows of my home?

Tony- Exactly. You have every legal right to be inside your car on a public street. Someone breaking into our car is the same as someone breaking into your home.

Rob- When do your students learn about using lethal force in public?

Tony- During our self defense handgun classes we train people in the skills to use a firearm from concealment. Other classes we host go over self defense and deadly force law.

Rob- Is there more you want to talk about before we close?

Tony- Try to avoid road rage incidents if at all possible. Allow the car tailgating you to pass, don’t argue with them. Be the bigger person and let the situation defuse itself. Again if possible. If it’s not possible make sure you have trained and practice using your defensive firearm from the seated position, to replicate how you sit in a vehicle.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com

I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast.

Rob- I hope you look at Tony podcasts and at his classes. Then, please leave Tony a message on the self defense gun stories episode webpage.

Tony- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

The post Episode 316 with Tony Simon appeared first on Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast.

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 315 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. We missed you, Robyn. What has been keeping you so busy?

Robyn at the RangeRobyn- Hi, Rob. I’ve been catching up from being out of the office hosting the 11th Annual A Girl & A Gun National Conference. It was a tremendous success! We had 600 students and 150 instructors and staff, where we taught training classes on every class you can think of. It was such a good time. I’m looking forward to flying to Georgia for The Mingle hosted by The Complete Combatant this weekend where I can get some training and trigger time myself! How about you?

Rob- I did some live fire practice at the range, and I’m still dry practicing every day for a class I’m taking this weekend. We received a new rating, but no new comments on iTunes (is 347,190).

Robyn- I would like to invite all of your listeners to go to the iTunes store. Subscribe to podcasts and share them with new gun owners, too! Here in the US, people are forced to defend themselves or their loved ones with firearms thousands of times a day. In today’s podcast, we’ll look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on the podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home?

You are on the phone when you hear a crashing sound. It is 8:30 in the evening and your dog is barking. You put down the phone and your teenage son says, “Don’t shoot.” You hear your dog yelp in pain. You grab your gun and walk toward the front door. You see two masked strangers standing in your home. At least one of them has a gun. You shoot them several times. The news reports aren’t clear if you shot them while you were still in the other room or if you walked through the doorway first. Your attackers turn and run. You stop shooting. You don’t follow them down the street.

It takes a minute to understand what happened. Your son isn’t hurt. You’re not hurt. Your dog has been tased, but he’ll recover. One of your armed intruders is lying in the front doorway. You call 911 and ask for help. News reports say there was a third person living in your home and that they were not injured either.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. They disarm your attacker. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene. You give the police a statement and the officers notice your broken front door.

The police find your second attacker nearby. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital. He is treated, and then arrested and taken to jail. You find out that he is charged with aggravated burglary, attempted aggravated robbery, convicted felon in possession of a firearm, and possession of a firearm during the commission of a violent felony. He is held on a 7-hundred-thousand dollars bond.

You are not charged by authorities.

Robyn- This is every parent’s nightmare that their child is threatened by an intruder. I like that the dad had a firearm and had it with him at night.

People often mistakenly think that your house is in an impenetrable bubble of rainbows and unicorns, but these stories remind us that bad things can happen to good people when they are at home. He bought a gun and learned how to store it and use it. He recognized when there was an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to his family. He shot the bad guys until the threat went away.

Then he did what good guys do. He stopped shooting. He checked on his family, and he called for help. He made sure that he didn’t have a gun in his hands when the police arrived. He and his family gave a statement about what they saw and what they heard.

Rob- That is a lot to do in very little time. Are there other things you’d like your students to do that weren’t mentioned by the news reporters?

Robyn- You don’t expect the bad guys to choose your house. Fortunately the defender didn’t waste time asking why; he took action to stop the threat. But then imagine you are that father, standing there with a gun in his hand and you don’t know what to do with it. Part of you wants to stand in the middle of the room and make sure the bad guys can’t come back and hurt your family. You want to check on your family and then comfort them. You want to call for help. You’re pulled in a lot of directions at the same time.

In this case, you probably can’t close your front door because the bad guys broke it and there is a wounded or dead robber lying near the door. What a mess.

Rob- So how do we deal with such a confusing situation?

Robyn- Talk to your family about what to do ahead of time. You will feel better because you know it is going to be confusing. You will be less confused because you have a plan. Your family will feel better because they recognize what is happening to them. The chaos feels less chaotic because they expected it and they know what comes next and what to do.

Rob- How do your students learn what to do?

Robyn- We have classes on armed defense in the home. The NRA has them. The USCCA has them. Local instructors can make their own defense in the home class. Some instructors have short armed defense classes where they review scenarios like this one.

I like those short classes where you’re learning from both the instructors and from the other students in the class.

Rob- Does a home invasion/robbery happen very often?

Robyn- Criminals break into homes about 7,000 times everyday. People are home for about two thousand of them. Before Covid, most of the break-ins were during the day when we were at work. Now, with more people working from home, criminals are running into more homeowners. I don’t have the new statistics yet.

Rob- Is there anything else you noticed in this story?

Robyn- These attackers had a criminal record and probably committed robberies like this before. I bet our homeowner was seeing this for the first time. I’m glad we have stories like this to learn from.

Rob- Me too. Where are we going next?

Robyn- Our second story happened in Bryans Road, Maryland.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?

You are walking your dog down the street. It is 3 in the morning when a woman comes running out of her townhouse. A man runs after her. You hear him swear and threaten her. The strange woman approaches you and asks for help. The man walks toward you aggressively.

Now the man threatens you. You step back and he turns to follow you. You present your firearm and tell him to stop. You shoot him before he is able to grab your gun. The man stops and you’re able to back away. He falls down.

You put your gun away and call 911. You stay at the scene. When they arrive, you show your concealed carry permit to the police. You give them a brief statement. You live nearby but didn’t know your neighbor who just attacked you. The woman who was attacked gives the police a statement too. The wounded man is her boyfriend and the father of her children. Both of you are taken to the police station for questioning by detectives.

You are released and officials do not charge you with a crime. Both the attacker and the woman who was fleeing from him were firefighters in Washington, DC.

Robyn- I like that our defender recognized that bad things can happen at night in public. That is why he got his carry permit. That is why he went armed when he had to take his dog out at 3am. Our defender recognized an immediate and dangerous threat to himself and to other innocent parties.

Rob- This is complicated because it might involve a third person. This couple is having a fight. Does it matter what happened inside their home before our good guy got there?

Robyn- No. The law says that that was a separate fight. The woman might have been the aggressor during the fight in the home, but she retreated from the fight by running outside and across the street. Her boyfriend pursued her and threatened her. That makes him the aggressor in the fight on the street.

Rob- When do we learn about the law like that?

Robyn- You’ll get a little information during your concealed carry class. There are classes after that where we review the legal use of lethal force, and then there are classes that focus only on the law. Some of them are online and written specifically for your state. We didn’t have classes like this a decade ago, so we’re making it easier and easier.

Rob- What else do you see in this incident?

Robyn- I’m glad our defender had a phone to call for help and that he made the call first. This story could have turned out very differently if he had to run back home to call, and the female victim disappears. You want to make sure that all the eyewitnesses and the earwitnesses tell their story.

Rob- How do we do that?

Robyn- After you defend yourself, shout for help. “Call 911. We need the police.” All the people who heard you shout and called 911 may have also heard the couple as they were fighting in the street. These days in this suburban setting, many of them had doorbell cameras that recorded what happened.

Rob- Is there anything else about this story?

Robyn- This story is a little complicated because you don’t know these people, and you don’t know who is armed, and you don’t know that she is an innocent party (maybe she intends to harm you, too). They brought the fight to you, and you have to discern all of the information immediately to govern your behavior. You heard him make an actual threat, and the attacker was acting threatening towards you as well. Domestic situations can get very inflammatory and you want to avoid being in the middle of them, if possible.

Rob- Where are we going next?Robyn- Our third story happened in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado.

FASTER Coloradohttps://i2i.org/faster-training/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed as you drive?

It is 1:30 in the afternoon when you are driving past the Las Vegas Airport. A man jumps over the barricade at the side of the road and he runs into traffic. He gets in your lane and you have to stop so you don’t run him over. He has a gun in his hands and points his gun at you.

You stop your car. You’re armed. It isn’t clear if you got out of your car or shot him from inside your car. Your wounded attacker now drops his gun. You stay at the scene. Police arrive in less than a minute.

The police chased your attacker from the other side of the barrier. They hear your gun shots. They called for Emergency Medical Services. You put your gun away. You identify yourself and give the officers a brief statement.

EMS takes your attacker to the hospital where he is pronounced dead. You are not facing any charges.

Robyn- We don’t think we are at risk as we drive on the highway in the middle of the afternoon, but this story proves that things like this happen. I love that our defender was armed so he could save his life and the life of others.

If this happens to you, then don’t move your car. Even if you are blocking traffic, stay put. Police are going to block off the entire highway as they process the scene. I hope you can reschedule your appointments because you’re going to be there a while.

Rob- Better to be late than to be killed by a crazy man with a gun.

Robyn- The bad guy was vandalizing cars and threatening the police with his gun. He was lucky that the police didn’t shoot him then.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Robyn- Let’s explore a couple of different angles. It would be probably that the attacker was drugged, drunk, or having a mental health problem. That is important to recognize because as responsibly armed citizens, we expect the world to think like we do. Unfortunately, there are a lot of criminals that aren’t you and don’t think like we do. You can rationalize their behavior or understand it. You just have to know the laws so that you can protect yourself from their erratic and dangerous actions.

The other thing is that this is a really hard place to defend yourself. First, getting to your firearm, shooting through a windshield, managing the pressure and sound from the shot, shooting from the seated position, drawing around a seatbelt – all of those factors come into play. You’re also managing your vehicle – putting it in park and blocking traffic – at the same time as your firearm, with a lot of people around you. Every shot you fire is going to stop somewhere, so you have to be mindful that you’re not going to send a bullet into a nearby home or car – you have one target that you have to hit. I’m glad our defender hit his attacker and didn’t injure people down the road.

Rob- Our defender hit his attacker as the good guy was getting out of his car and trying not to be run over by other cars.

Robyn- Good point. We’re going to leave the “getting run over” part out of our training classes.

Rob- We have people running around carrying a foam bumper-car?

Where are we going for our last story?

Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Johnson, Iowa.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home?

You hear your neighbor yelling upstairs. You’re worried about him so you go upstairs to see if he needs help. It is just before midnight and your neighbor is angry with the people upstairs. Now he threatens you, your wife and another relative with a knife. He moves toward them with the knife in his hands.

You’re armed. You shoot your attacker until he stops and drops the knife. You call 911 and ask for help. You put your gun away when the police arrive.

Police take your attacker to the hospital. Your wife and another witness were grazed by your bullets. The witness went to the hospital as well. All of you remain at the scene and give statements to the police. You are not arrested and are not charged.

Robyn- John Farnam’s Rules of Stupid say, “Don’t go stupid places, associate with stupid people, or do stupid things.” He says that we avoid a lot of problems by being home in bed after 10pm. Did our defender need to get involved?

However, sometimes the problems come to us. When he was threatened, he was armed and was able to stop the threat to himself, his wife, and friend. Again, I suspect that the attacker was drunk, drugged, or mentally challenged. The defender and his family said they knew the man and that he was being uncharacteristically angry and violent.

It’s good that there were lots of witnesses who stayed at the scene to give a statement to the police. If this happens to you, then you might want to take a video of the scene so you record everyone who was there.

Rob- I don’t remember them talking about taking a video of the scene in my concealed carry class.

Robyn- Everyone has a camera these days. Make that recording part of your safety plan with your family. Maybe your son or daughter will take the video if that is their role in the family safety plan. Make sure they know NOT to put this video on social media.

Rob- Our description is too simple and it gives a false impression. “I saw the bad guy threaten someone. I shot them.” The truth is that there were innocent victims near the bad guy and some of the victims were injured.

Robyn- People think that a firearm is a tool that works at a distance, but actually most self-defense encounters happen at 3-5 yards. Also, we might choose to get very close to our attacker so that innocent people can’t get in the way between us and the bad guy. There are close quarter classes that teach you to shoot from retention and to manage the experience of what it is like both physically and emotionally to shoot someone who is inches away from you.

Rob- The bad guy had a knife. You’ve taken knife fighting classes. We don’t want to get close to someone who has a knife, but we might have to because there are so many people nearby. Talk to me about figuring that out.

Robyn- Knife fights are gruesome. In seconds a lot of damage can be inflicted with a knife. It is a lethal tool and a firearm is a viable option to combat it. There are classes that teach you how to manage the attacker’s arm to make sure that you control the knife, pin your body in a position of leverage, and also can get access to your firearm where you can shoot without putting your body in jeopardy. These techniques are taught in a variety of close quarters classes or weapons retention classes.

Rob- Is there more we want to talk about before we close?

Robyn- If you’re going to try to physically control your attacker with a knife, it is going to take a lot of stamina. Even if your attacker is bigger and stronger than you, there are techniques that can give you the upper hand. However, if you’re not fit to fight, it’s a good reminder that you want to do some kind of strength training or cardio regiment. People often think that they’ll have superhuman strength because of adrenaline, but if you’ve never played football before, you’re not suddenly going to be able to hang in the Super Bowl just because you have adrenaline. You need to be realistic about your abilities and your training, and then set goals to be where you want to be.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.

Rob- After you look at Robyn’s events, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free and we want your help.

Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 314 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. I know you’ve been traveling and hunting. Tell us what has been keeping you so busy.

David- I just returned from a hunting safari in South Africa, and I’m in the midst of my 12th season shooting USPSA.

How about you?

Rob- I have been dry-practicing every day to get ready for a class. I also did some live fire practice. I’ll tell you about it in a few weeks.

We received a new rating and comment on iTunes (is 346,190). A listener said the reinforcement of best practice self-defense is priceless.

David- I don’t think I’ve ever been called priceless before. This may take a minute.

Rob- While Dave blushes with pride, please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Dave- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. As usual, the links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home?

You’re at home on a Saturday night. The news story doesn’t say if you were in bed yet, but you hear someone beating on your front door at 10pm. You are not expecting visitors so you grab your handgun and go to the front door. You open the door to see what the stranger wants. That is when the stranger pushes his way inside your home. The intruder hits you. You shoot your attacker multiple times. Now your attacker stops hitting you so you stop shooting him. You step back and call 911 for help.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. Emergency Medical Services take your attacker to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to the chest. You show the police your identification and give them a brief statement.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- Our defender was given a pop quiz at 10 at night and he did a lot of things well. He prepared for the test by locking his doors and windows. He prepared by having a firearm for personal defense. He kept the gun where he could get a loaded gun into his hands quickly.

Our good guy defended himself when he was attacked. He stopped shooting when the attacker turned away. He called for help. He stayed at the scene. He put his gun away when the police arrived, and he gave a brief statement.

Rob- Would you grade that as a B, as 7 out of 10 right answers?

David- Something like that.

Rob- We have perfect hindsight. What else do you teach your students to do?

David- There are classes for armed defense in the home and we say don’t open the door for strangers. Beside widely available technologies like doorbell cameras or security cameras…which are great…you can talk to them through the door if necessary. Call the police or call Triple A if they say they have a car problem.

We don’t like to be rude, but don’t open the door. Just don’t. You can offer the stranger milk and cookies and apologies when the police arrive. The advantage of taking a class is so we have a model of what to do and what not to do in the middle of the night. Make the robber break down your door or your windows.

Rob- Suppose I didn’t call the police when the robber was still outside. He breaks in and I defend myself. I have a bad guy lying on my carpet. I want to call 911. How do I get my phone and make that call? What do I do with my gun?

David- It’s easy to keep your cell phone with you at all times…it just takes a little thought sometimes to make it a habit. But it will be worthwhile when you need that phone in an emergency. Don’t have a gun in your hand when police arrive. Holster it, put it on the floor, or somewhere else where the police won’t feel that you are a threat when they roll up.

Rob- You talked about a class for home defense. Is that an hour, a day, or is it several days long?

David- One example, the NRA Personal Protection In The Home class, is a one-day, 8 hour class. I’m sure there are others of varying length.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover about this story?

David- I’m good. Let’s go to Kingsland, Georgia for our second story.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work?

You are working at a gas station/convenience store. It is 4:30 in the morning when a customer runs inside and tells you to hand over your car keys. Yours is the only car in front of the store. Also, your car thief has a gun in his hand. You hand over your keys. Your attacker runs out of the store and jumps into your car. You follow him to lock the door. Your attacker crashes your car into the front of the building. As he gets out of your car, he again points his gun at you. You shoot him eight times until he drops his gun. That is when you stop shooting. Police are in the area and they hear your gunshots before you call 911. They are at your store in minutes.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. They disarm your attacker and EMS takes him to the hospital. You give the police a statement and show them the security video of the robbery. The police tell you that your attacker robbed a store and led them on a chase through five counties and two states. He was shooting at the police as he drove down the highway.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- I noticed that our defender had a gun but he didn’t use it when he had a gun pointed at him the first time. He waited his turn. He could do that because he recognized that he had a dangerous job. He was armed at work. He recognized a threat, and he thought it was a better idea to trade his car in order to avoid a gunfight. That is such a smart thing to do that I bet he thought about this earlier.

After the bad guy crashed the car, the defender had his gun out and saw an advantage when the robber returned. He defended himself until the bad guy dropped his gun and moved away. It sounds like our good guy moved to safety, but I want to talk about that later.

Our good guy stayed at the store and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Facing a robber who has a gun in his hand is hard. I think he did a good job.

David- He did, and there are a few things we want to do that were not mentioned in the news articles. We want to lock the doors so the bad guy can’t come back. We want to retreat away from the threat and get to safety. We want to call 911 and be talking to the dispatcher until the police get there. We want to move away from the attacker so we are safe. In particular, we do not want to be standing over the bad guy with a gun in our hands when the police arrive. Now is a good time to put our gun back into our holster.

We want a carry permit so the police officers know we don’t have a criminal record. We want to make sure the police get the evidence and the videos, but we want to talk to our lawyer to prepare our complete statement.

Rob- Why is that so important?

David- You just shot an attacker eight times so he would drop his gun and move away from you. That makes you look like the bad guy unless you tell your story completely. Lawyers know how to do that and we don’t.

Rob- How do I find a lawyer?

David- You find a lawyer before you need one. I use a self-defense insurance plan that will have a lawyer on call in my area.

Rob- The police are going to take my gun, aren’t they.

David- They probably will. You might be arrested or detained while the police and detectives get all the information sorted out. That is where those security videos help a lot. You might have to go with the police to the station and talk to the detectives, and that is where a lawyer helps a lot.

Rob- Where are we going for our third story?David- Our third story happened in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

CprcCPRC

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work at night when you sleep?

You bought a small retail business. Before you open the store you notice that someone has tried to break into your store by breaking a hole through one of the walls. You have the wall repaired and you start sleeping in your store at night.

It is 4:30 in the morning when you wake up and hear a strange sound. Someone is breaking into your building again. A man climbs through a hole in the wall and he is carrying a heavy hammer and chisel. You shout for him to leave. He walks toward you.

You’re armed tonight. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now he drops his hammer and chisel. He turns away so you stop shooting. You back up and call 911.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. You unlock the front door and let the officers inside. They disarm your attacker.They declare your attacker dead at the scene. You show them the hole the intruder made in your wall.

You have to get the wall repaired again, and you want a video security system before you open your store.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- This exam happened at four in the morning. Our defender recognized a lethal threat of a man who broke into his store. The attacker had a hammer in his hands, and was moving toward him. The store owner defended himself until the threat stopped. He then called for help.

Rob- What else do you see here?

David- The obvious question is why didn’t our defender call the police, but this wasn’t the first time someone broke into his store, and he may have had his hands full dealing with the burglar. That’s OK, but you obviously want to call the police as soon as possible. He probably called the police after the first break-in, and the police were not able to identify the criminal, locate him, arrest him, bring him to trial, convict him and incarcerate him. If any one of those moving pieces doesn’t work, then honest citizens remain at risk.

Rob- We imagine that the police are like our parents, that they will protect us and make us safe.

David- The police are not able to do that, and they aren’t legally required to. You can call the police, but there is no guarantee that the bad guy won’t be back tunneling through your wall as soon as the police drive away. More importantly, there is no guarantee that the police will arrive in time to protect you from an attack, which is precisely why we carry.

Rob- That is particularly true where the district attornies won’t prosecute. What do we want our students to do?

David- I like that the defender wanted cameras. They show your defense attorney what happened. We want the police to have the videos quickly so we preserve the chain of evidence.

Also, a gun is a distance tool. I don’t want you anywhere near your attacker. What if he is armed? I want you across the room behind a wall as you shout for him to leave. I don’t want him to be able to see you. If the attacker moves toward you, then you can shoot him while you remain behind cover so he never gets a good look at you. Things like distance and cover equate to time, and you want as much time on your side as possible.

Rob- When do your students learn about using cover and concealment as they defend themselves?

David- Most defensive pistol courses will at least discuss the use of cover and concealment, if not provide some practical exercises, but it’s usually beyond the scope of basic concealed carry training. This is where more advanced training becomes useful.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?David- We’re going back to Louisiana, but this time to New Orleans.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you walk in public?

You are walking down the street at four in the afternoon. A red SUV stops suddenly on the street next to you. Four teenagers get out of the car and run up to you. One of them has a gun in his hands and he points his gun at you. He tells you to hand everything over. You say sure and reach into your pocket. You have your concealed carry permit in your wallet. You have your firearm on your hip. It seems like a bad idea to give a loaded gun to four teenage robbers.

You shoot the robbers and they run. They drive away in the SUV and crash into a tree and a utility pole. They get out of the SUV and run. You stay at the scene and re-holster your pistol. You call 911. You tell the dispatcher what happened.

Police find the crashed car nearby. They arrest your four attackers. Two of your attackers are wounded.

Your attackers are 17, 15, 13, and 11 years old. They are taken to the hospital and then to the juvenile detention center. They have been on a crime spree and are charged with attempted carjacking, armed carjacking, attempted robbery, attempted robbery with a firearm, first degree robbery, armed robbery, illegal possession of stolen property, and illegal possession and carrying of a weapon.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- I like that our defender had his carry permit. I like that he was armed as he was out in public. He recognized a threat. He waited his turn and then defended himself. He stopped shooting when the attackers ran away. Our defender called 911 and got the police on the way.

Rob- We’re seeing many more stories like this. What should we do?

David- Go armed. Protect yourself and your family. Drop your wallet and back up. Drop your cell phone and take a step back. Move to cover as you present your firearm. If necessary and legally justified, shoot your attackers until the threat stops. If you haven’t practiced dropping something and then presenting your firearm, then include that in your dry-practice routine. Put a small pillow into a grocery bag and drop it as you move and present.

Rob- We’re talking about cover again.

David- We are not the police. Our goal is to go home and avoid getting shot. If we can step behind a car and not get shot then that is a great plan. We may have to shoot the bad guys so they don’t chase us behind the car, but I want you to be hard to shoot.

I also want you to call your lawyer even if you don’t hit your attackers.

Rob- Why is that?

David- Because criminals lie, and you don’t want them to be the only ones telling the police what happened. Also, if you use a firearm, you have used deadly force in the eyes of the law whether you hit your attacker or not. Besides, every bullet you fire hits something, and you are responsible for that.

Rob- The good news is that more home video systems will show that to be a lie.

David- Only if your lawyer makes sure that those videos are collected and entered into evidence.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Look for my written articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest article is about my recent trip to Africa…warthogs and all.

Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast webpage.

David- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 313 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. I know you’ve been taking continuing education classes. Tell us what has been keeping you so busy.

Heather ReevesHeather- Hi, Rob. My most recent opportunity to train was attending TacCon. There was a lot of learning accomplished and I won the women’s division of the match that they do every year.

How about you?

Rob- I was outside the United States so I couldn’t carry. It is good to be back home. I’ve started dry-practicing every night to get ready for a class I’m taking in a few weeks.

While I was gone, we received a new ratings and comment on iTunes (is 345,189). A listener said they were involved in a self-defense shooting. They were indicted six weeks after the event. They couldn’t find a similar situation in our old shows.

I’d love to hear about it, but you might want to talk to your lawyer before you tell us anything. Leave a message on our podcast webpage.

Heather- Gabriel left us a message on Facebook. He said, “Thanks for all the great lessons and we really appreciate the channel!” He and his son listen when they work together in their garage.

Rob- Gabriel and son, thank you for making your family safer. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Heather- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. As usual, the links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Austin, Texas.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?

It is just after 5 on a Tuesday morning when you are woken up by a strange noise. Someone is knocking at your front door. They shout for you to let them in. You don’t know who it is. You grab your handgun and shout for them to go away. You call 911 and ask for the police. You are leaning against your front door as your intruder tries to smash your door.

The intruder breaks through your window and enters your home. You shout for him to leave and shoot him until he stops moving toward you. The police are still on the phone and you tell them to hurry.

You put your gun away when the police are outside. They tell EMS that the scene is safe to enter. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene.

You give the police a statement about what happened. Detectives review that statement and the recording of your 911 call. They hear your attacker beating on your door and window. They hear you shout for him to stop.

You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- We’ve seen stories like this before, and I’m glad this woman was armed. That didn’t happen by accident.

She recognized that she needed to defend herself. She bought a firearm and learned how to use it. She kept it near her at night, and she kept it in a condition so she could use it quickly. All her preparation happened a long time before she heard someone at her door.

That night, she recognized a threat. She armed herself. She called for help. When the man broke in and the threat was immediate, then she defended herself until the threat stopped.

She stayed at the scene. Put her gun away, and gave a brief statement to the police.

Rob- Is there more that you want your students to do that wasn’t mentioned by the news reports?

Heather- There are a few things I noticed. I want you to keep your gun locked up at night in a bedside safe. That way a visitor can’t get to your gun, but you can have a loaded gun in your hands in seconds. Please install it per the manufacturer’s recommendations.

I appreciate that she put her shoulder against the door, but I want you far away from the door or window when an intruder breaks in. I want you behind the furniture so he can’t see most of you. Better yet would be to look at your front door from down the hallway or from another room where you can see the bad guy but all he sees of you is a dark shape in a dark room. That means you step back away from the doorway so you are well inside the dark room.

I also want you to have a lawyer to call. Your legal advisor can also recommend a counselor for you to talk to, because you’re going to have some strong feelings after you defend yourself.

Rob- I like what you said because those issues are never mentioned in our news stories. When do your students learn about storage, about cover and concealment in their home, and about their legal and emotional defense?

Heather- During our concealed carry class we cover all of that on an introductory basis, and then do deeper dives on each topic through our other offerings. The ladies that work with me through A Girl & A Gun get doses of each of the topics almost every time we meet. It’s a lot to take in when you first decide that you conscientiously want to protect your life.

Rob- How would your students get a chance to practice moving to cover?

Heather- Outdoor ranges let us do that. So does competition like IDPA.

Rob- Anything else?

Heather- Let’s move on to our second story in Gastonia, North Carolina.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?

You are walking across the parking lot between several small businesses. You are getting back in your car just before noon when a man approaches you. The man pulls a knife and threatens you. You back up and your attacker chases you. You shout for him to stop. He is getting closer and tries to stab you. You are carrying concealed. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now your attacker stops. He runs away.

Several people in the nearby businesses heard you shout. They saw you being attacked and backing away. They called 911. It is not clear from the news reports if you called 911 also.

You reholster your pistol and stay at the scene. You give the police a statement. North Carolina doesn’t have constitutional carry, so it seems you have your carry permit, though that also isn’t reported in the news. Police find your attacker at a U-haul lot a block away. He is taken to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to the upper abdomen. Police interview the other witnesses.

You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- Our defender was carrying in public. He recognized a threat. He retreated which bought him time to react. He gave verbal commands that drew the attention of witnesses. Said another way, he shouted for the bad guy to stop. He defended himself and stayed at the scene. Great job.

Rob- There are a few things I want our defender to do.

Heather- Me too. We are robbed for our money when we come out of a bank, for our purchases when we come out of a store. Keep your eyes open as you move from a business to your car. Transitional places such as this are the times when we find ourselves most vulnerable.

If someone approaches you, shout “STOP!” Empty your hands and move so that there is a car or other barrier between you and the stranger. We want to avoid a running race where the attacker is running forward and we are running backward. If they come around the car then we shoot them many times until they stop.

I also want my students to call 911. Win the race to the phone.

“I’m at the package store on Broad and Ryan. A man with a knife attacked me and I shot him. We need police and EMS.”

Rob- When do you talk about 911 calls with your students?

Heather- Any class that we teach where use of force is discussed we have a section where we talk about calling 911. Stop the Bleed and Image Based Decisional Drills are when we speak in depth about the realities of calling 911.

Rob- That is interesting because almost all of our defenses will have a 911 call in them somewhere.

Heather- Rehearsing a basic outline for that call means it’s one less thing to think about in the moment.

Rob- Where are we going for our third story?

Heather- Our third story happened in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation.

Buckeye Firearms Foundation https://fastersaveslives.org/Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home?

You share an apartment with your sister. Her ex-boyfriend beat her up before. Her attacker threatened her yesterday saying he would come over and beat her again.

You are both home with friends on a Sunday evening when you hear someone at the front door. Someone breaks down your front door. The ex-boyfriend walks in and goes to your sister’s room. She shouts and he grabs her.

You grab your gun from your room and follow them. You shoot the attacker until he lets go of your sister. It isn’t clear from the news reports who calls 911 and asks for help.

Police arrive and you put your gun away. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene. You give the police a statement about what happened. So does your sister and your friends who were in the apartment. Your neighbors gives a statement about the attacker threatening your sister yesterday.

You are not charged.

Heather- Yikes but this is scary when a man breaks into your apartment with the intent to beat you. Our defender did a lot of things that we already mentioned in the earlier stories, but let me point out the differences.

The defender had to shoot the attacker and not shoot his sister while she was being attacked. That may mean you have to get close to the attacker. You might be able to shoot them in the back, but will your bullet go through your attacker and hit your sister? Every bullet that leaves your gun has consequences attached to it, whether intended or not. I don’t know about you Rob, but I want to be thinking about these types of situations while I’m practicing. Working angles during practice sessions and visualizing these types of things during dry practice can really help our decision making.

I don’t know what the defender did in this case, but it is a harder problem to solve.

Rob- How should I solve it?

Heather- Image Based Decisional Drills and our Defensive Night classes allow my students to experiment with angles before they need them in real life.

Also, I want you to call 911. I want your sister and your visitors to call 911.

Rob- The defender wasn’t a listener to this podcast.

Heather- If he was, then his sister would have asked for a restraining order against her ex, and she would have been armed herself. If we are depending on someone else defending us, then we are counting on luck. What if the attacker broke in while the brother was taking a shower?

Rob- That sounds like a class on armed defense in the home and a class on armed close quarter combat.

Heather- There’s no such thing as too much training.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Heather- Our fourth story took place in Adair County, Kentucky.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?

You and your girlfriend are at a pizza restaurant on a Tuesday night. Two customers have been drinking and are causing a problem. They are asked to leave by the store manager and employees. Now the two pick a fight with you and your girlfriend. You both get up to leave and the two men attack you. You are punched and knocked down. Your girlfriend and store employees try and help you, but you are punched, kicked, and then hit with a chair. Your girlfriend is knocked down and then runs out to your truck to grab your handgun. She comes back and points the gun at your attackers. They stop. You and your girlfriend retreat to your truck to leave.

One of the store employees runs out to see if you need help. Your girlfriend hands you your gun. One of your attackers runs out and threatens you. He says he has a gun. You shoot him at least four times as he runs at you. He turns around so you stop shooting. The store employee is also shot in the foot. It isn’t clear if you did that or if your attacker did that.

You stay at the scene and wait for the police. The store manager has already called 911. You put your gun away when the police arrive. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital.

You give the arriving officers a statement about being attacked. The store employees give statements. Customers who witnessed your attack give statements. The police look at the store security videos.

You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- They did a lot of things right. They tried to deescalate the situation. They tried to leave. The girlfriend got the gun when that didn’t work. The boyfriend defended himself when he was attacked again outside. He stopped shooting when the attacker stopped advancing. He stayed at the scene and gave a preliminary statement to the police before he received medical treatment.

It is hard to deal with drunks and there are reports the girlfriend had been drinking too.

Rob- Do drunks get in fights that often?

Heather- Let’s turn that question around. Something like 70 percent of the people who commit assault are intoxicated. Most people who are intoxicated are not violent, but most violent people are drunk or high.

Rob- This story took place in Kentucky. They have constitutional carry so you don’t need a permit to carry concealed. They can carry in a restaurant, but they can’t carry in a bar even if they don’t drink, so it is against the law for the designated driver to be the designated defender.

Heather- Find a better place to drink and leave before the drunks get crazy. I noticed that the violent drunks said they had a gun, so the law doesn’t disarm the criminals.

Rob- That is some very adult conversation.

Heather- It is. There are states where you can’t carry where any liquor is served. Some states let you carry and not drink. Some let you drink and not be drunk, similar to the laws about operating a motor vehicle.

Rob- That sounds complicated. What should we do?

Heather- Know the laws in your state. Decide which of you is the designated defender and choose your restaurants carefully.

Rob- What else did you notice?

Heather- There was a lot of evidence that our defender was the victim of an attack. Being treated for your injuries creates a medical record of your injuries that can be put into evidence. The police can’t make you get treatment, but they suggest it, then it is a good idea to take their suggestion.

Also, if you do get medication for the injuries then don’t talk to the police until you’ve talked to your lawyer and are off the pain medications. You don’t need to walk-back the things you said when you were drugged.

Exit-

Rob- Thank you for that advice. Heather, that wraps up this episode and thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Heather- Find me at my gun store website,

Wolverinedefenseacademy.com. I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter.

Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Heather- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 312 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you are still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Ben Branam. What has been keeping you so busy?

Ben- Hi, Rob. I’ve been..

How about you?

Rob- We didn’t receive a rating or comment on iTunes, on Facebook, or on our webpage. (was 344,188) Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Ben I thought of you as I prepared this episode. Three of the four stories come from Texas. The fourth story is from Florida.

Ben- Texas is a large state and there are a lot of gun owners here. That is true of Florida too. We defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Houston, Texas.

Rob- First story- Are you armed in public?

Customer stops four armed robbers in a Houston gas station

You are in a gas station just before 9 at night. So are other customers. Four young men rush into the store. All four of them are wearing masks. All of them have guns in their hands. They tell the clerk and all the customers to hand over their wallets and their cash.

You own a gun too. You’re carrying concealed. You present your firearm and shoot three of the four robbers. They run from the store and dive back into the getaway car waiting outside. The getaway driver heads down the road.

You stay inside and watch them drive away. You put your gun back in its holster. One of the customers is injured, but you don’t know if he was hit by your shots or by the robbers. You call 911 and ask for help. You identify yourself to the police when they arrive. Emergency Medical Services take the wounded customer to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. You are not charged.

Four of the attackers are arrested at the hospital. The police are looking for the fifty attacker. The wounded customer is expected to make a full recovery.

Ben- I am so glad this customer was armed in public. He recognized and immediate lethal threat when a gang of armed men entered the store and demanded money from everyone. He started shooting the bad guys and stopped when they ran away. He stayed at the scene and called for help. He gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Gas station robberies happen every day. Shooting four armed attackers sounds impossible. How did the good guy win?

Ben- A smaller group can always move faster than a bigger one. In this case one versus four. We use tactical patience to act when we, us good guys, have the most advantages.

Shooting multiple bad guys sounds hard until you practice it. You and I have practiced so we know we can present our firearm and put two shots on four targets in under 3 seconds. Better yet, move if you haven’t taken cover or can’t. Put the bad guys lined up one behind another so we only shoot the bad guy in front of us and the other bad guys can’t shoot us without first shooting their buddy. Fast is good tactics is better. Out maneuver the enemy.

Rob- When would your students learn about defeating multiple attackers?

Ben- First take your concealed carry class. Learn how to carry your firearm and how to present it efficiently. Dry practice at home. When you’re ready, take a class called beyond concealed carry, fighting with a handgun, or close quarters combat. We generally get to multiple badguys in our second class. Go to a class that makes you move while shooting at mulitple targets.

Rob- I need to take that course again so I remember what I can do. You think those skills are accessible?

Ben- Yes, they are. All you have to do is study and practice. Spend about 15 minutes a week dry practicing and you will get better and better every week.

Unfortunately, most people are more comfortable imagining what they might do than measuring what they can do. My attitude is that you are where you are. We measure performance so we know which direction to go to help you improve.

Rob- The news reporting on this story was horrible. They didn’t mention that the bad guys were shooting into the store from the parking lot. As a defender, would I be responsible if a good guy got shot?

Ben- I think that is the wrong way to think about the situation. The bad guys put everyone in that store at an immediate risk of losing their lives. You didn’t create that problem. You reduced the threat by shooting back. Unless you did something like deliberately shooting a customer who was lying on the ground then you’re not at fault. They are.

Also, the robbers were probably the ones who shot the unarmed customer. The store security video will probably show that, but since some of these robbers were under 18 years old, the police and the media won’t let us see the videos.

Before we leave this story I want to point out how crime changes. Gangs found out they could overwhelm a household and rob them in a minute. Then we had group smash and grab robberies in businesses. This gang thought they would overwhelm a single store clerk even if the clerk was armed. They were wrong.

Rob- Where are we going next?

Ben- Our second story takes us out of Texas to Gainesville, Florida.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in public?

Dad stops abuser

Your daughter gives you a call. She is frantic after her boyfriend beat her up again. You drive over to see her. She is injured and you both call the police to file a report. The officers arrive and takes your statements. The attacker isn’t there so the police leave. You stay with your daughter.

Her boyfriend comes back a half hour later. He searches the house looking for her. You shoot him and he turns and runs. You call the police again.

Police find your attacker in the parking lot. EMS declares him dead at the scene. You stay in the apartment and give a statement to the police.

You are not charged.

Ben- I’m glad the defender was armed. I’m glad he stopped shooting when the bad guy turned and ran. He did the right thing in calling the police the first time and in calling them again.

Rob- There are a lot of details that the news media left out. What is important about this story?

Ben- It isn’t clear if Dad had a carry permit or not. He was not carrying in public since he was in his daughter’s apartment. I checked, and the Florida constitutional carry law goes into effect on the first of July.

The bad guy was not an immediate threat because he beat your daughter a half hour ago. He was an immediate threat because he entered without permission and wouldn’t stop when he was confronted. The fact that he’d been violent before made him more of an immediate threat to you and your daughter. The story is thin on the lethal threat. Remember it isn’t just an immediate threat, it has to be lethal force to use lethal force. To use lethal force in most of America you have to be in immediate and imminent fear of death or great bodily injury.

Rob- That is important, and it is covered in classes on the law of self-defense.

What else would you want your students to do in a situation like this one?

Ben- Don’t wait until the significant other hits you. Get rid of the boyfriend or girlfriend the first time they threaten you. Get a restraining order against them. Learn to use a firearm in self-defense so you are armed when you are attacked. And, use and reinforce your doors locks so the bad guy has to break into your home.

Rob- But the bad guy said he was sorry after he hit me the last time?

Ben- Right. They are always sorry until you get hit again.. If you survive. It’s the circle of violence that will continue until it is broken, by you leaving or someone getting killed.

Rob- Where are we headed for our next story?

Ben- We are headed to Fort Worth, Texas.

Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

http://jpfo.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed as you drive?

You drive up to a store. Your friend is in the back seat of your truck so you leave your truck running in the parking lot. As you leave the store, you see someone sitting in the driver’s seat of your truck and it isn’t your friend. The stranger is trying to steal your truck with your friend inside. You run outside and pull open the driver’s door. The stranger fights with you. You present your firearm and shoot the kidnapper. Now he stops. He gets out of your truck and runs away. Fortunately, your friend isn’t hurt. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help.

Police find out that your attacker was thrown out of the store a few minutes before you arrived. They find your attacker at a nearby motel. Emergency Medical Services transports him to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to his arm.

You are not charged with a crime.

Ben- We’ve seen people lock their car but leave it running. That might be to keep the car hot or cold, or because someone was inside.

In this case, I’m glad our defender was armed. She recognized a threat when someone tried to kidnap her friend. She acted immediately and violently to disrupt the attacker’s plans. She tried verbal commands, and then climbed the ladder of deterrence when she went hand to hand. Finally, shot him when he wouldn’t get out of her car. She stopped shooting when the attacker ran away. She stayed at the scene, and she and her passenger called for help and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Are there other things you’d like us to do?

Ben- Lock your car doors. It sounds like the passenger was another adult, so I’d like them to be armed too.

If you’re a business owner, then call the police when you throw the crazy person out of your store. It doesn’t hurt at all to make a report and it makes a paper trail against that person in case something happens later.

Rob- I have to shoot into my car to get the bad guy out of the driver’s seat.

Ben- Yeah, that is harder than shooting at a paper target at the range. You want to be close so you won’t miss and hit your passenger, but not so close that your attacker can grab your gun. As you’d guess, there is a class for that.

Rob- New gun owners don’t know about things like shooting from the retention position. How will they find out what they don’t know?

Ben- Gun store, shooting range, taking a class. I sound like a broken record, but take a class. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Ben- We are staying in Texas and going back to Houston.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you drive?

Drive by defender

You are driving down the street after dark. You drive past a small bank located in a shopping center parking lot. The drive through automatic-teller-machine is well lit. You see a man being pulled out of his car and being pistol whipped at the ATM. You are armed tonight and carrying concealed. You turn your truck around. You get out of your vehicle. The attacker notices you and points his gun at you. You shoot him several times until he drops his gun. He is wounded in the leg and foot so he can’t run very far or very fast.

You call 911 and ask for help. Police take your attacker’s gun. EMTs take your attacker to the hospital. The news stories don’t mention if the victim being pistol whipped needed hospitalization. You show the officers your identification. You give them a statement.

You are not charged with a crime. Later, you find out that your attacker was wanted for murder in Louisiana. The news reported that this was the 103rd robbery in the area in the last year.

Ben- I like that this defender was carrying at night as he drove down the street. He recognized an immediate and deadly threat to an innocent person. He acted to stop that threat. He stayed at the scene and called 911. He gave a statement to the police.

I love that a fugitive for murder was captured.

Rob- Talk us through the important parts that the news article left out.

Ben- Use tactical patience to create an advantage for yourself. If this bad guy wanted that other person dead, they would already be dead. The bad guy wants something else. This gives you a little time to make a getter approach and be ready for the situation.

Approach from behind or behind cover. Use your vehicle lights as cover and your vehicle to approach and cover. Your vehicle is an amazing tool, use it.

If this was a military operation I’d want to sneak up so the bad guy didn’t see me and then shoot him enough to stop him before he could stop or fight me. No this isn’t the movies, you don’t need to give a verbal warning and it sure as heck doesn’t have to be a fair fight. If it is a fair fight, your tactics suck. Do better.

Once the shooting stops, just remember there is a lot of work left to do.

Make sure the bad guy isn’t a threat anymore, if you have to disarm him.

Do a quick check on the victim, he isn’t going to die before the medics get here, is he? Do you know? Can you tell? Have you taken that training class?

Move the victim to safety if you have to.

Put your gun away if it is safe to do so.

Call 911.

Don’t have your gun in your hand when the police arrive.

Rob- How do you know what to do?

Ben- I’ve studied what to do and I’ve practiced it. You want to have an outline like that so you don’t make bad mistakes in the dark.

Rob- Did this defender have to intervene?

Ben- He didn’t. If there were too many bad guys then the best you can do sometimes is call 911 and get help on the way. If I had my son or wife with me, then that is probably all I would have done.

Rob- Because you thought about it and know it is important to not put your family at risk.

Ben- Rob, if you and I were riding together, then we have more options than I have alone. You and I with a little time in this situation the bad guy doesn’t really have a chance. But, if my son and one of his young friends were with me, all I can do is use my phone.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Ben Branam, thank you for giving me more to think about. Where can we learn more about you?

Ben- I teach armed self-defense and church security. I live in San Antonio, and most of my classes are in central Texas. Sign up for my classes at Modern Self Protection.com.

Rob- We share this podcast with you for free.
Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.

Ben- We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and on iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 311 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. What has been keeping you so busy?

Amanda SuffecoolAmanda- Hi, Rob. I’ve been setting up next month’s travel schedule. NRA, then a DC Project event at Hillsdale College in Michigan, then off to DC, Illinois and Atlanta. Advocating, Training (both as a student and as the instructor) and setting up a fashion show.

How about you?

Rob- I traveled halfway around the world and am glad to be back home.

A long term listener named Roger sent in this story that happened to him and his daughter. (Is 344,188) We also received several new ratings and a new comment on iTunes. A listener who uses the name CTownz looks forward to every new episode. He says podcasts are the only way to get news and information nowadays.

Amanda- Thank you, C Townz. We have not had a single message in April, so please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Rob- About one listener in 4-thousand bothers to leave a comment. Why not be one of the elite listeners who lets us know what you think?

Amanda- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place a few weeks ago in Oxford, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First Story- Do you have a firearm near your bed?

You’ve asked for stories like this and Roger wrote in with his story of an armed defense that ended early.

You are sound asleep on a cold and dark February morning. That happy moment ends when you hear your adult daughter screaming. She shouts “Dad, get your gun!”

You wake up instantly. You grab the “bag” you keep on your night stand and run to the front of the house. On the way there you hit the switch that turns on several flood lights that light up the front yard and the driveway. You check your “go bag” for your 9mm pistol, extra magazine, flashlight and your cell phone. Your daughter meets you in the center of your home. She says that three men in dark clothes drove their car down the driveway and then turned around to face back toward the street. They ran toward your home. You run to the front window and all you see are a set of tail lights racing down the driveway away from your house. You spend the next few minutes calming yourself and your daughter.

Later, you find out that your daughter was up early. She heard the car in the driveway and yelled to alert you. You’re so grateful for her loud warning which both you and your intruders must have heard. You decide not to call the police since neither of you could describe the car or the men inside it.

Amanda- This is a story after my own heart because I want us to avoid every problem we can.

I love that they had a plan. She shouted to alert the whole household. Dad grabbed his emergency bag. He turns on the flood lights outside the home. The story doesn’t mention it, but I suspect he turned on some lights inside his home as well. The family met and they took stock of the situation. I bet it took them a while to calm down.

Rob- Is there more you want your students to do that wasn’t mentioned in this story?

Amanda- There are a few things we can still do. They were lucky that the daughter was up early and watching TV. Let’s have some motion detectors on the front porch, and if you have a long driveway, then let’s put some motion detectors on the driveway as well. Solar powered wi-fi is wonderful.

Go ahead and call the police. These guys were looking for trouble. It will help the police to know that they tried your place if they then head somewhere else. It will also help the police if it turns out that the intruders are interested in you in particular.

Since you may have been targeted, why not have an alarm company out to see what it would cost to put a system in your house. I also want both of you armed. I don’t know the layout of your home, but can you install a gate at the road? How about video systems?

Rob- Do you have students who want to be armed AFTER they’ve been attacked?

Amanda- Oh yeah. They suddenly take defense at home and on the street very seriously. Again, I want to work on making you and your home uninviting so the bad guys go away without you having to shoot someone.

Rob- I assume the doors and windows were locked, but let’s say that anyway.

Amanda- How about a ring doorbell so you can talk to your intruder while your door is locked and you have recorded video of them. I like that a lot. It also works if you are not home.

Rob- What should happen if the daughter is there alone?

Amanda- She seemed to know the plan, and the location of the gear. So if she was not carrying on body (which is highly recommended) she could get to ‘the bag’ on her own.

Rob- Anything else?

Amanda- That is enough for now. Our second story happened on Main Street in Houston, Texas.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work?

You and your brother have been serving a few customers for the last few hours. The two of you work together and run your food truck. It is about 1:30 in the afternoon when your next customer arrives. Your brother talks to him. The stranger pushes a gun through the order window and your brother closes the window on him. The robber lifts the window and tries to shoot inside the food truck. The armed robber enters the side door of the food truck and presses the trigger. His gun jams after the first shot.

You have your Texas license to carry. You’re armed today. You shoot your attacker and he runs away. You and your brother call 911 and ask for help. You both stay at the scene.

The police find your attacker about 40 yards away. EMS takes him to the hospital. You go to the hospital as well because you can’t calm down. It is hard to catch your breath. You are a grandmother and your family gives you lots of support. Police said this was a case of self-defense. You take a day off and then re-open the food truck.

Amanda- Yikes. There isn’t a place to hide in a food truck so this is really scary.

I like that she was armed. She said she had her carry permit for years and she never thought she’d have to use it. That is a little strange since I found six other stories of food trucks that were robbed in Houston.

She carried that day and she recognized when it was time to use her gun. She shot until the robber ran. She stopped shooting and didn’t chase the bad guy. She and her brother called 911 and asked for help. She gave a statement and then asked for medical help for herself.

Rob- What else would you want your small business owner to do?

Amanda- I want you to lock the doors and windows of your food truck the same way you secure your home or office. Let’s keep the bad guys outside. Particularly since you work with family, I want you to have a safety plan.

Part of that plan is noticing criminal acts in your area that might affect you. The more you realize that you might be the next victim, the faster you react and the faster you recover. Before it happens, you’re accepting that violence might happen to you. This woman was religious. God gave her the means to protect herself and she is supposed to use it.

I want both of you armed. I want you to train together. I want you to install cameras and an alarm so your bad guy runs away before he presents a gun.

Rob- There isn’t any place to hide in a food truck.

Amanda- There is and there isn’t. Can you drop to the floor because that gets you out of sight? Can you shoot through the aluminum skin of the truck to hit your attacker outside?

We normally say that the robber outside isn’t a threat, but almost every firearm can shoot through the side of some catering trucks. That means you have to think ahead and study what works in your particular case.

Rob- When do your students learn about things like that?

Amanda- We talk alot about cover vs concealment. In this case – the robber worked to stick the gun through the window. Seemingly oblivious to the fact that food truck glass is glass, and thus not bulletproof. This worked in our hero’s favor.

Rob- Where are we going for our third story?

Our third story happened in Carroll county, Mississippi.

Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation

Second Amendment FoundationSAF https://www.saf.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed in public?

You are at a local bar. A man keeps bothering you so you decide to leave. You ask a friend to walk you the short distance to your home. Your stalker follows you and you tell him to stay away from you. You are in front of your home when your stalker grabs you. You fight to get free, but he won’t let go. You’re armed. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He finally lets go of you and you stop shooting. You ask the two witnesses to call 911. You put your gun away and you also call 911.

Emergency Medical Services take your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. They arrest you on an investigative hold. The police get statements from the witnesses at the scene and other witnesses at the bar. You are released since this appears to be a justified case of self-defense.

Amanda- I am so happy that this woman was armed. Lots of us make excuses. I’m just going down the street. I’m just going to see friends. What could happen?

Well, someone could attack you and you might have to fight to get free, that is what might happen!

She walked away and left when the guy in the bar bothered her. She asked some friends to walk her home. That added both protection and witnesses. She tried verbal commands to tell him to go away. She tried physical force when he grabbed her, and then she escalated the use of force by using her firearm. She stopped shooting when the threat stopped. She called the police and asked for help.

Rob- This story is important because it is so ordinary. She was attacked right outside her home.

Amanda- That is where most defensive uses of a gun happen. The bad guys try to get us when we’re coming and going.

Rob- If the bad guy grabs my arm, do I have a spare hand to get my gun if I purse carry?

Amanda- That is one of the biggest arguments against purse carry. But, sometimes it’s the only option. Women are built differently than men, many times and many outfits take a whole lot more thinking to have a firearm on body. Sometimes it’s just easier to carry in your concealed carry designed purse.

Rob- What else do you notice about this story?

Amanda- In this case, our defender had advance warning. Even if she was purse carrying, she could keep her hand on her gun so that her gun was ready instantly. Her ‘spidey senses’ already let her know this creep was an issue. The way she handled it was text-book perfect.

Rob- When do you talk to woman about having their hand inside their purse and on their gun?

Amanda- That comes up in our concealed carry class.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Amanda- Our fourth story took place in Calumet Heights, Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work?

You manage an auto parts store on the south side of Chicago. It is about 2:30 in the afternoon on Saturday when you look up to serve the next customer. The middle aged man lifts his shirt and shows you the gun in his waistband. He tells you to hand over the money in the cash register.

You own a gun. You have your Illinois Firearms Owners ID card. You are carrying concealed at work. You grab some cash and then grab your gun. You shoot your attacker several times. He reaches for his gun and you keep shooting. You stop shooting when he runs out the door. You stay inside and call the police. You check on your employees and customers.

Police find your attacker on the sidewalk in front of your store. His gun is on the ground next to him. Police disarm your attacker and Emergency Medical Services take your attacker to the University of Chicago Hospital. You find out that he later died of his injuries.

You are not charged. You saw on the news that this was the 45th time that someone with their carry permit has stopped an attack in Chicago in the last three years.

Amanda- I’m glad our defender was armed because I can find lots of stories where unarmed store clerks were shot by bad guys. The store manager recognized a robbery and he waited his turn. We want to put something in the robber’s hands. You can have this bag and this box and this sack. I see that your hands are full. Can I open the door for you after I shoot you several times.

That is important because we want to avoid a gunfight where the bad guy gets to shoot at us and our customers.

Our good guy stopped shooting when the attacker was out the door. He called for help and checked to see what happened to other innocent victims.

Rob- Is there more you want us to do when our business is robbed.

Amanda- There is a ton that wasn’t mentioned in the news article. As a store manager you have to be all over the store. That means your employees will be at the register without you. That means they should be armed too. Do you have a safety plan with all of your employees? Do you have a company policy against guns or advocating for concealed carry?

Ask all the employees and the customers if they are injured, and if they are able bodied enough, then ask them to call 911 for you. Ask each person to do that face to face. Lock the front door so the bad guys buddies don’t step inside. You want to be on the phone so you know when the police arrive and you can unlock your front door.

You have a store on the south side of Chicago. I expect you to have security cameras everywhere. Give copies of those security videos to the police as soon as possible. The sooner they have them, the harder it is for a defense lawyer to say you changed the videos.

Rob- Wow. Lots of small business owners need to up their security. We’re talking about a security system they can buy at the local big-box hardware store.

Are small business owners going to have to lose lawsuits when they don’t have security alarms on their back doors before they step up?

Amanda- With the creation of RING and other internet security systems, the cost barrier is now a curb instead and easily stepped over. Companies need to have security as part of their business plan, as part of their overall utilities.

Rob- When do you teach small business owners how to make a security plan?

Amanda- I send them to other experts. I can give them rudimentary pointers, but it is not my area of expertise. We each need to know our wheelhouse and use the experts in the industry that are available to us.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Amanda- My eye on the target radio show is syndicated coast to coast on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject that you can find at DCProject.info, and I’m on TV at the OpsLens channel with both Eye on the Target on Sundays and Women for Gun Rights on Fridays at 7 pm eastern.

Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV shows, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage.

Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-

Rob- Welcome to episode 310 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. What has been keeping you so busy?

Tony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been. Diversity shoots in NJ and PA, also KS, OK, and NE. Week before Memorial day.

How about you?

Rob- Tony, our first recording together was in early March of 2016. Now we are starting season 8 together. Thank you.

Tony- I didn’t realize it, but you’re really old.

Rob- I had fun with you too.

We received two new ratings and a new comment on iTunes (is341,167). A listener named Mo from Massachusetts only got his concealed carry license a short time ago. He said we’re an incredible source of information.

Tony- Thank you, Mo. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. You can find the links back to the original news articles on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Garden City, Kansas.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?

It is about 5:20 in the morning when your family goes out and retrieves their 27 year-old who has been drinking. He argues with you when you get him home. He grabs a gun and points it at your family. One of you is armed and you shoot your attacker in self-defense. You call 911 and ask for help.

Police arrive and you put your gun away. They disarm your attacker. EMS takes him to the local hospital. All of the family members give statements to the police. You later find out that the young man died in the hospital. You are not charged with a crime.

Tony- I was going to say this is a crazy story, but it lured me in. Sure, we’ve given people a ride home before. We’ve dealt with angry drunks. Now we add an argumentative drunk who has a gun. This is less far-fetched than it seems since most aggravated assaults are committed by people who are intoxicated. This threat was real.

I’m glad our defender was armed. I’m really glad he took the threat seriously. In a perfect world, you have a relative with a taser standing behind the drunk attacker and no one gets shot. Even that is uncertain because we don’t know if the attacker is going to press the trigger as he is tased.

The defender stopped shooting when the attacker dropped his gun. They called the police and asked for help. They stayed at the scene and gave the officers a statement.

Rob- As horrible as this story is, I know people who stage firearms around their home. That means there is a gun near a drunk relative. If the drunk has been in the home before, then he might know where the firearms are stored.

Is there anything else you’d like your students to do if this happened in their home?

Tony- Call the police early. When your drunk brother or cousin starts to argue, call the cops before the first punch is thrown. The police might not get there in time, but that puts you in the category of the complainant who asked for help.

We don’t know if the drunk was armed when he came inside, but it would be a good idea to check before you let a drunk armed man into your home. We want everyone who was in the home to give a statement to the police.

Rob- How do you ask to disarm a drunk without provoking an armed conflict?

Tony- You don’t look too good right now. Let me hold that for you until you’re better in a few hours. I’m not going to take it from you, I’m asking you to hand it to me while you sleep this one off.

If they say no, then you call the police and don’t let them inside.

Rob- That is easy to say, but hard to do.

Tony- I know. We can’t make this a perfect world, but we start by doing the best we can for our family.

Our second story happened in Coldspring, Texas.

Rob- Second Story- Do you keep a firearm nearby at night?

You’re asleep in the back of your liquor store. It is about 5:30 on a weekday morning when you hear someone walking around inside. Just to be clear, your store closed hours ago. You get out of bed and call the police. You grab your gun and move toward the back room where you hear someone. The intruder runs at you. You shoot him one time and he stops. You back up and call the police again. You put your gun away when the police arrive.

EMS takes your attacker to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. Both you and the police look at the security video. The police see your attacker break into your store through the drive-in window. They see him gather alcohol and cigarettes in a bag. They see him run toward you before you defend yourself.

You are not charged with a crime. Later you find out that your attacker died in the hospital.

Tony- The people who commit violent crimes are usually not rocket-scientists. I’m willing to bet that this was not the attacker’s first crime. He took crazy chances and lost.

I’m glad the store owner had a firearm and had video cameras. It was a good move to call the police early. He armed himself. He defended himself. He showed the police the security video that showed his innocence.

Rob- When do your students and business owners learn about calling the police and about security cameras?

Tony- As someone that worked for a company that sells and installs security cameras, security doors, locks and safes you better believe students are made aware of the benefits of all of the above early and often. Calling the police as soon as you confirm your security has been breached gets them on the way. Any delay puts you at higher risk if the situation is more than you, a single defender, can handle.

Rob- Is there more you’d like us to do if we are worried about break-ins at our business?

Tony- I am going past the level of how to use a gun. Past the level of what you say to the police. You don’t want to kill someone if you can avoid it. Lock the door to the back room where you’re sleeping and let the police capture the criminal.

Killing someone will cost your heart way more than a bottle of whiskey and a bag of slim-jims that the thief was going to take. There may be a point where you have to defend your life. I get that, but avoid that situation if you can. Lock the door and get behind something so you are hard to see and harder to shoot. Wait for the police. Maybe you can let the police into your shop through the back door.

Also, you don’t know how many people are in your store or how they are armed. Why go up against three bad guys in the dark? Call the cops instead.

Rob- Tony, there are lots of family owned stores. Have you seen where the son wants to guard the store, but the old man would never allow his daughter to stay in the store overnight?

Tony- I get it. The son wants to protect the family by protecting the store. The rest of the store recognizes that the daughter’s life is too important to risk. In a strange way, we’re saying that men are expendable. I say we need you both of them alive tomorrow so make better plans today. If you have too, have two or three people sleeping in or above the store. Before you do that, put in an alarm system.

Rob- Is it better to have a loud security alarm that goes off when there is an intruder?

Tony- Yes. Set off the alarm if you’re there.Our third story happened in Detroit, Michigan.

Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership.

DRGO https://drgo.us/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed as you get something to eat with a friend?

It is 10 o’clock on a weekday night. You and your friend walk into a late night delicatessen. You notice two men following you. One of them follows you as you leave. You’re in the parking lot near your car when the stranger tells you to stop. He points a gun at your friend and tells you to hand everything over. You have your concealed carry permit in your wallet, but you hand over your wallet. The robber starts to pat you down. That is when you present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker in the chest. He runs one way and you and your friend run the other way.

It isn’t clear if you called 911. Police responded to the sounds of gunshots. You reholster your firearm and run toward the officers with your hands in the air. You and your friend tell the officers what happened.

The officers find your attacker nearby. They disarm him and find your wallet in his pocket. Your attacker is a convicted felon with a prior conviction for armed robbery and weapons charges. It is not legal for him to have a gun. The police look at the security video of the robber and his accomplice. They see the robber point his gun at your friend and at you.

You are not charged with a crime.

Tony- I’m glad that the defender recognized the threat when the attacker started to pat him down and the defender reacted before the attacker found his gun.

This is a great example of waiting your turn which is also called tactical patience. You have every right to defend yourself, but the bad guy has a gun pointed at your friend’s head. Let’s wait a minute until the attacker’s eyes are looking somewhere else and the gun isn’t against our friend’s head before we present our firearm and shoot. The defenders did well.

Rob- I’m surprised the defender only shot once.

Tony- Me too. We teach defenders to shoot until the threat stops, but let’s at least start with a couple of well placed shots. This makes me think that the defender didn’t have much training. I wish that both of the intended victims were armed and trained.

Rob- What training does this defender wish he had?

Tony- The class is called close quarters armed combat. You often have to fight hand to hand as you create the room you need to present your firearm. You press the trigger when your firearm is still in the close quarters retention position at your side because you don’t want to hand your gun to your attacker by extending your arms.

Rob- Let’s be realistic. Most gun owners don’t have their carry permits. Most permit holders don’t go on and take another class. What is going on there?

Tony- Most people have a fantasy of what they will face on the street. They would rather keep it a fuzzy and comfortable fantasy than listen to a podcast like this one and find out there is more to learn. To all my students that keep training and learning, I thank you.

Rob- Me too. Where are we going for our last story?

Tony- Our fourth story took place in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you walk your dog?

You are walking your dog down the street on a weekend afternoon. You are near your home when a strange dog runs out into the street and attacks your dog. You try to pull them apart by pulling on your dog’s leash. That doesn’t work and you try to kick the strange dog. That doesn’t work either. You present your concealed firearm and you shoot the strange dog. That stops them. You and your dog back away.

It isn’t clear who called 911. You stay at the scene and give a statement to the police. Your dog is still on his leash and the police say you didn’t commit a crime.

Tony- This is interesting. We don’t shoot people to protect our dog, but we can shoot another dog to protect ourselves or to protect our dog as long as we don’t put other people in danger. This is much harder than it sounds since a dogfight is the definition of a moving target and we don’t want to shoot ourselves, shoot any bystanders, or injure our dog.

I think our defender shot three times and then stopped shooting when the dog stopped attacking. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police. That is really important because you want to make sure your story is told.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Tony- Go to the veterinarian and have your dog’s injuries documented. You want a description and photographs. If you were bitten, then you go to the doctor and have your injuries documented. Then you call your lawyer. You might have to sue your neighbor so there is a judgment that stops them from suing you later.

Rob- How would I know to do that?

Tony- You don’t. Your lawyer makes that decision with you. That is why you call him.

Rob- Your students come to you because they are interested in armed defense. When do your students learn about legal defense after they’ve used a firearm?

Tony- In our home defender handgun and defensive pistol classes we discuss the importance of legal protection from companies that specialize in helping “armed good guys” that defend themselves.

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com

I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast.

Rob- I hope you look at Tony podcasts and at his classes. Then, please leave Tony a message on the self defense gun stories episode webpage.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 309 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy?

Candy PetticordCandy- Hi, Rob. I’ve been teaching lots of women with our new Girl and a Gun Chapter. I also testified at the state capitol about firearms legislation.

How about you?

Rob- I was traveling and it is good to be back where I can carry every day. I came back and did some dry practice right away.

We received two new ratings and a comment on iTunes (339,186).

-A listener left us a message. Stan said Episode 307 was excellent – but it was disturbing when Robyn said “There are many people in Texas jails because although they were within the law, the jury did not consider their actions reasonable. ” I have my Texas carry license and I find it appalling that some police and prosecutors won’t investigate or prosecute many crimes but will prosecute people for lawfully defending themselves against those same crimes. As you said, we have become our own first responders.

Candy- Armed defense isn’t simple. You want to survive the physical threat AND stay within the law. That means you need to understand the guidelines of the law. You also need to defend yourself in our legal system. I have an insurance plan to help me spread out the payments for that legal representation.

Rob- Alfredo wrote to us. He is a fan. He said that gun ownership is very limited in Mexico where he lives. You can have a gun in your home, but there are very few places to practice.

Candy- We know people who want to protect their family. That isn’t confined to the USA. That you for doing the hard work of defending the people you love wherever you live.

-GreenDeen left us a comment on iTunes. He thanked our team for spreading the word about responsible firearms ownership. We bring him news that he doesn’t find from other sources. That makes him want to train harder.

Rob- Thank you, Green Deen.

Pastor Mel also sent us some interesting stories. Thanks, Mel.

Candy- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Austinville, Virginia.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby when you’re asleep at home?

And here.

It is late Sunday night when you hear sounds downstairs. That is unusual. You go downstairs and identify the noise coming from your kitchen. There is a naked woman in your home. You shout for her to leave. He hits you with a cast iron frying pan. You fight back and push her out the back door and then lock the door. She turns off the power to your house and says she is going to kill you. When she is smashing her way through your back door you shoot her in the leg. Now she stops. You stop shooting and call 911.

Police arrest your intruder. EMS treats the wound on her leg and takes her to the hospital. She is charged with felony breaking and entering of an occupied home while armed with a deadly weapon to commit larceny, assault and battery, and intentional damage to property. You are not charged with a crime.

Candy- It was 36 degrees outside that night. That is much too cold to be running around without clothes.

I’m glad our defender thought about his safety at home. He bought a firearm. He didn’t ignore the unusual sounds of someone in his home at night. He armed himself. He defended himself when he faced an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He stayed at the scene and called for help. He put his gun away when the police arrived, and he gave them a statement.

Rob- There are other things you’d like us to do. Before you talk about that please explain why this was justified to use lethal force to stop this threat.

Candy- The homeowner was hit in the arm by the frying pan. He was hit in the head with the frying pan. The crazy woman was telling him to get out of her home and that she was going to kill him. That is a clue. She told him what she was going to do and she tried to do it.

The fact that it is crazy doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

You have to explain why a crazy lady who is outside your home is an immediate and lethal threat. The downside is that if you wait until she smashes her way inside, then you have to shoot her multiple times in the chest or head to immediately stop her before she attacks you again.

Rob- You’re telling me that this homeowner might have actually saved the attacker’s life when he chose to shoot early?

Candy- Yes. This is a simple story but self-defense isn’t simple. We have to deal with criminals, with druggies, and with people who are mentally ill.

Rob- What do you teach your students to do when they hear something downstairs at night?

Candy- First, work out a home safety plan so you don’t have to be brilliant in the middle of the night.

Let’s call the police first. Let’s stay in our bedroom behind a locked door. If you have a family to protect, then by all means go downstairs with your gun, your phone, your flashlight, and your partner.

Also, lock your doors and your windows so you don’t wake up with someone inside your home even if they are only armed with a cast iron frying pan.

Rob- When do your students learn that?

Candy- In our defense of the home class.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover before we move on?

Candy- Let’s save some for the other stories. We’re headed to El Paso, Texas.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home in the morning?

You are at home on a Thursday morning. It is about a quarter till 9 when you hear someone break down your door. You hear your dog bark and you hear a gunshot. That is called a clue. You grab your own firearm before you go investigate the problem. A stranger is standing in your home. He has a gun in his hand. You shoot him. The stranger runs away so you stop shooting. You check on your two roommates and then call 911. You ask for help from the police and from animal control for your dog.

Police also get a call about a man lying in the middle of an intersection about two miles away. He matches the description of your attacker. He is taken to the hospital to treat a gunshot wound. He is charged with burglary and held on a half million dollars bond. The news reports don’t mention the condition of the dog.

You are not charged with a crime.

Candy- Again, I’m glad our defender was armed in his home on a weekday morning. Hearing gunshots in your home is a clue that the attacker is willing to use lethal violence against anyone who stands in his way. Our defender stopped the threat and then stopped shooting when the attacker turned and ran away. He called for help and gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

There are two additional comments I want to make. Dogs are good alarms. They are not good defensive tools.

Second, most of us need to work out more. Don’t start your exercise plan after you’ve been shot. Running down the street as you bleed externally and internally is a good way to die.

Rob- We’re talking about a home defense safety plan again. There were two other roommates in the home at that time. How does that change our plans?

Candy- That depends. I might have a relative living in my home. I expect them to risk their life to defend our family. I don’t expect that from the family friend who stays in the back room for a hundred dollars a week when they are visiting town on business. Have those discussions in the daylight when you make your safety plan.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover here?

Candy- We haven’t talked about giving a statement to the police and then contacting your lawyer. Details matter. Point out evidence, but you want to save your report until after you talk to your lawyer and they fill the report out for you. Here is an important example.

Suppose your dog is shot and then runs outside. That could be interpreted that your dog attacked the stranger outside your home. The stranger then entered the home to explain what happened, and you shot him.

That is very different from the man breaking into your home and discharging a firearm there. Now you’ve already established that the attacker has the means and motive of using lethal force inside your home.

We don’t want to make a mistake on mis-reporting something so important. That is why we have our lawyer fill out our report.

Rob- What do you say to the people who tell us to say nothing to the police?

Candy- Saying nothing means the police can miss evidence. Are you going to give them the description of your intruder? Are you going to say that you saw that your attacker was armed and that he shot his gun inside your home? Are you going to ignore that the attacker broke down your door?

Point out the evidence so it can be documented by the police. Don’t answer questions about why and how much. Where was the intruder standing when you shot him? Somewhere in my living room. I was in my bedroom looking through a crack in the doorway when I shouted for him to leave and he pointed the gun at me. I defended myself, and I’ll have my lawyer fill out the details in our report. Then you stop talking unless you think of more evidence. Like, Oh, yes, my roommate saw what happened from his bedroom door. Please ask him.

Rob- When will your students learn about the legal use of lethal force in self-defense?

Candy- CCW course and in private lessons.Rob- Where are we headed next?

Candy- Our third story happened in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado.

FASTER Coloradohttps://i2i.org/faster-training/

Rob- Third story- Do you have your firearm nearby at night?

And here.

It is just after 1 in the morning when you hear a strange sound and then your dog starts barking loudly. You shout out your son’s name wondering if he came over unexpectedly. You get out of bed to see what is happening. You hear a loud noise from your basement and you decide to bring your gun with you. You go down the basement steps when you notice a stranger in your basement. You shout that you’re armed. You tell him not to move. The stranger moves toward you and you shoot him. Now he backs up and you stop shooting. You back up and call 911 for help.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. The police arrest your attacker. EMS transports your attacker to the hospital with a serious wound to his arm. You give a statement to the police. Your attacker was charged with felony burglary.

You’re not charged with a crime. News reporters talk to the neighbors. They didn’t think that sort of thing would happen here.

Candy- Our defender was armed. His doors were locked. He responded to his four footed alarm. He got his gun before he investigated. He tried to determine if it was a family member. He tried verbal commands like stay away from me. He shot before the intruder could reach him. He called for help. He put his gun away and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Candy- Call the police. Turn on the lights. Stay behind a door so you are hard to see and hard to shoot. Everyone thinks they want to clear their house until they try it against an intruder in one of our exercises. We arm the intruder with an airsoft gun. That is enough to convince you that your old baseball cards that are stored in the basement are not that important.

It sounds like the defender did a good job but he didn’t have a plan.

Rob- Have a plan so you don’t get creative in the middle of the night. That means we’re going to have to sit there in our room for fifteen minutes while our dog barks at the guy in the basement.

Candy- Yep. Talk to the 911 dispatcher instead of worrying about your dog.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Candy- Our fourth story took place in Marengo, Ohio.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you drive?

It is Tuesday evening. The sun set about a half hour ago. You are about 35 miles north of Columbus, Ohio when you pull your U-haul van into a small town gas station to fuel up. You are at the pumps and you turn when you hear gunshots. A man just shot at a woman who was putting gas in her car. The news reports don’t mention if you said anything, but now the attacker shoots at you too.

You are armed. You present your firearm and shoot back. You hit your attacker and he stops shooting. You stop shooting too. You call 911 and stay at the scene.

You give a statement to the police when they arrive. EMTs treat the wounded woman and your attacker. Both were declared dead at the scene. You show the police your identification.

It takes the police a while, but they connect your attacker to three other carjackings that happened in the last few hours. Your attacker shot at those victims too. In your case, you were armed and stopped the attacks.

You are not charged with a crime.

Candy- I like that our defender was armed.

Ohio now has constitutional carry so you don’t need a permit to conceal your legally owned firearm in public. I want you to take a class so you know when to use your gun and when not to use it.

I like that our defender recognized an immediate threat to innocent parties. He reacted and then defended himself and others. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped.

Rob- Is there more you’d like us to do?

Candy- Our good guy stopped a violent murderer who’d shot at about a half-dozen people and cars that day and murdered at least one innocent person. I want our defender to have a medical kit so you can save his own life. I want my students to be able to save their family and friends.

I sound like a broken record today, but having a plan is important. You want to make sure the attacker can’t hurt anyone. You can’t walk up and shoot him after he dropped his gun. It is probably better to drag the injured woman to a safe position, maybe into the convenience store, and get her help.

If you don’t know about first aid then you’re not going to know what to do. Maybe there was nothing that we could do to save her life, but it will haunt you if you don’t know what to do so you do nothing.

Rob- When do you talk to your students about that?

Candy- We start to cover that in our self-defense in the home course.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Candy- Look for me at the Akron, Stark & Summit, & Northcoast Ohio Chapters of A Girl and a Gun. I also teach at Northpointe Training in Akron, Ohio with offices located at The Parma Armory Shooting Center.

Rob- After you look at Candy’s schedule, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Candy- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.
~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 308 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. What has been keeping you so busy?

Amanda- Hi, Rob. I’ve been building houses and doing my radio and TV shows. I taught at an ambassadors academy where I talked about presenting ideas to the media. I also spoke at the Florida Freedom Fest, and testified for permitless carry at the Florida capitol in Tallahassee.

How about you?

Rob- I’m not nearly that exciting. I wrote and dry practiced. Oh, also I was on two radio programs on Sunday and another one on Monday. Those are Tom Gresham’s gun talk, Charles Heller’s America Armed and Free, and Bill Frady’s Lock N Load radio.

(is 337,185) We received a new rating and comment on iTunes. D Duke left us a five star rating and said the podcast gets him thinking about confrontations that could happen. He said you must listen to the podcast if you concealed carry.

Amanda- Thank you, D Duke.

Jim gave us a message on our Facebook page. He said that these DGU stories help him be mentally ready for an attack. The guest instructors provide clear legal guidance when possible, but they recognize that all states and situations are different. I recommend this podcast for anyone concerned about self defense.

Rob- Thank you, Jim.

Dave sent in an older story that was news to me. We used it this week.

I’m trying to travel more now that I’m retired. That means we are looking for volunteers to help produce this podcast. Please send us a message.

Amanda- Go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to new podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week just north of Seattle, Washington.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at work?You are working behind the counter of your smoke shop. It is 4 on a Monday afternoon when a customer comes into your shop. You recognize most of your regular customers, but this one is new. You ask how you can help him and he pulls a gun from his belt and points it at you. You’re being robbed.

What happened next isn’t clear from the news reports.

Your robber shoots at you. You present your concealed firearm and shoot back. You keep shooting until your robber runs out of the store. You don’t chase him. You fall to the floor and put pressure on your wounds. Bystanders come into your shop and put tourniquets on your legs to stop the bleeding. EMS takes you to the hospital. You give the police a statement from your hospital room.

Your attacker died outside your store. You are listed in serious, but stable condition. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- Our defender recognized that he and his brother who own the shop were at risk because they run a small retail shop that makes cash sales. He decided to defend himself and he bought a gun. He defended himself even though he was injured. He also stopped shooting when the attacker ran away. I suspect he called for help so that other people could treat his injuries. He gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Are there any other things you want your students to do that were not mentioned by the news reporters?

Amanda- There is so much we don’t know in this story. What happened after the criminal announced the robbery? Usually we don’t want to take our firearm out of its holster when the robber is looking at us and has his gun pointed at us.

Best practice is to give them the money and fill their hands with stuff before you fill yours with your gun. Also, where are videos from the security cameras? You should have cameras.

Rob- When do your students learn to defend themselves at work?

Amanda- there are things you are taught in classes that you can take back to your workplace, but very few instructors focus directly on workplace issues. I advise you to gather small snippets of info and carry it back to implement piece at a time.

Rob- That is a first introduction. How would your students get to practice what they learned?

Amanda- Listen to programs like these. Read about crime in your area. Dry practice at home. Shoot at the range, and go to a competition when you can. Sports like IDPA will have you moving to cover before you present your gun and shoot. AND LOOK at your workplace with fresh eyes for opportunities to defend, cover, concealment and for other security tools.

Rob- What else comes to mind?

Amanda- That does it for this story. Our second story happened in Hemet, California.

Rob- Second Story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?You and your husband are at home on a weekday night. It is about midnight when you hear someone break through your back door. Both you and your husband grab your guns. You leave your bedroom and walk into the center of your home. You see an intruder in your bathroom. Your husband goes into the bathroom and the two men fight. You hear them hitting each other as they lurch from wall to wall. Your husband shoots his 22 and hits the intruder three times in the chest. The intruder runs out of the bathroom and hits you in the face. You shoot him in the shoulder with your 357. Now the intruder turns and runs out the back door the way he came. You and your husband stop shooting. You call 911 and ask for help. You and your husband are in your 70s.

Emergency medical services treat you and your husband. They take your husband to the hospital to make sure his ribs are not broken. About an hour and a half later, your attacker goes to a hospital for treatment of his gunshot wounds.

The staff treat your attacker for his non-life threatening wounds and then the police arrest him. He is charged with home invasion robbery, burglary, elder abuse and assault. He has a long history of criminal arrests and convictions, but is out on parole after a burglary conviction.

Amanda- This couple was in their 70s and they both were armed at night. I like that. They worked as a team. They defended themselves even though they were physically attacked.

I also like that the couple didn’t chase the bad guy across the lawn and shoot at him. They stopped shooting when the threat stopped. They stayed at the scene and called for help. They gave a statement to the police.

It seems strange that he was shot four times in the torso and they said that the wounds were not life threatening.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Amanda- I want everyone to have a plan so they do a better job at midnight. We want to walk through that plan enough times that our hands and feet know what to do even if our brain is fuzzy with sleep.

Grab your gun – preferably a gun larger than a .22. . Lock your bedroom door. Turn on the lights and get behind the bed, or behind some cover. Then call the police.

This robber broke in and headed to the bathroom to look for drugs in the medicine cabinet. It is easier and cheaper to replace the drugs than to get punched and maybe have a gunfight.

Rob- When do you tell your students about that?

Amanda- I start with this is a gun class where I want you to run away. The fight you don’t have to engage in – is a fight you are sure to win.

I repeat and expand on that in the class…

Rob- How would I find classes like that since I don’t live in North-East Ohio near you?

Amanda- There are classes all over the country. Nra uscca As a matter of fact, in the past year I have taken training in Florida, Arizona, Georgia and Pennsylvania.

Rob- Where are we going for our third story?

Amanda- Our third story happened in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center.Cprchttps://crimeresearch.org

Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby early in the morning?And here.

You hear something outside. It is 3:40 in the morning when you go look at what is happening to your car. You see two men under your car. You go outside and one of the robbers points a gun at you. You are armed and you shoot at them. They run to their car and you hear them drive away. You also hear them hit another car. You call 911 and ask for help.

You put your gun away and talk to the police. You show them your driver’s license and your Illinois carry permit. You’re 70 years old and the number of catalytic converter thefts in the area has increased three fold. The thieves cut your exhaust pipe but didn’t take your catalytic converter. Now you have to go to a muffler shop to get your car repaired.

You are not charged.

Amanda- How old are you? Did you turn this into the self-defense show for 70 year olds? I didn’t sign up for that.

Rob- I’m in my 60s. I don’t make the news, I only report it. What do you think is happening in these stories?

Amanda- Criminals attack older people because they are easier victims. Except this guy was armed. He recognized that he lived in a dangerous area where criminals would target him and his home. He got his carry permit. He got his gun. He investigated a noise at night. He lived in a nice neighborhood, but criminals go where we are because they want to rob us and take our things.

Our defender tried verbal commands, like get away from my car. He recognized a lethal threat when the thieves pointed a gun at him. He stopped shooting when they ran away. He stayed at the scene and called the police.

Rob- Are there other things you want us to do when we hear a noise in the middle of the night?

Amanda- Follow your plan so you don’t do something stupid and get shot or killed. Call the police. Get your gun. Turn on the lights, including outside lights. If you have to go outside, then bring lots of armed friends to investigate that problem with you. Don’t stand in the middle of the driveway so you are an easy target.

I noticed that there is an election to replace the mayor of Chicago and the newspapers didn’t cover this story. It doesn’t look good for the mayor when thieves are invading the nice neighborhoods – and the election results prove that We The People have had enough crime in our cities – in Chicago anyway, and they are going to have a new mayor.

Rob- Is there anything else you want to tell us about this story?

Amanda- You probably want to have security cameras for your garage and your driveway. Since you can afford a Prius, you can afford security cameras to protect it.

Rob- Our good guy shot and missed. Talk to me about older people shooting at night?

Amanda- They make red-dot sights for a reason. They let us shoot without having to wear our reading glasses. That really helps at night and in low light situations. Go to a gun range and ask if you can try shooting one of their guns that has red-dot sights.

AND again, he used his gun to defend his car. He has insurance for that. If you pull your gun for the principal of things, you could be guilty of a homicide crime in some states. Best thing – as much as it chaps my behind – is to stay in the house and call the police.

Rob- I want to be sure I understand you. You said he had a right to defend himself when the thieves pointed a gun at him, but it is a better plan to call the cops so we don’t get shot over a car exhaust system.

Amanda- That is about it. You have the right to walk out on your driveway and get shot. It is a bad plan.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Amanda- Our fourth story took place outside of Atlanta, Georgia.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in the morning at home?It is 6 in the morning on a Saturday when you hear several women screaming outside your apartment. You step outside and see a man stabbing the woman who lives next door. There is already a woman on the ground bleeding. You shout for the man to stop. Another injured woman is shouting from the parking lot.

You are armed and you present your firearm. You shoot the attacker until he drops the knife and stops the attack. You stop shooting. One of the stabbing victims already called the police. You put your gun away and stay at the scene. You try to help the victims.

Police sort out the scene. The victims who can stand say you helped them. All of the stabbing victims are taken to the hospital along with their attacker.

You give a statement to the police. They want to see your identification. You are not charged with a crime. The detective said he is glad you acted to stop the attacks.

Later, you find out that one of the victims died at the hospital, but the other two are going to be alright. Your attacker died of his gunshot wounds.

Amanda- This guy saved lives. He was armed and he moved toward the sound of the attack and stopped it. He recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat to innocent victims. He used lethal force to end the attacks, and then he stopped shooting. He helped the victims, and gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

Rob- What else do you tell your students to do?

Amanda- There is more we can do. I want you to have your carry permit so that the police know you have a clean criminal record. I want you to recognize when you can and when you can’t use lethal force so that you don’t hesitate. I want you to call 911 so that you are listed as the complainant rather than the perpetrator.

Also, we are lifesavers first and firearms are one of the tools we use. When you’ve stopped the threat, I want you to have first aid training and supplies so you can save more lives.

Rob- When do you talk to your students about saving lives that way?

Amanda- Classes want to get into discussions of scenarios – I decline and send them to this podcast. But – what i do tell them is they have a split second to determine who is the victim, who is the aggressor and what action you are going to take. Jurys have months to tear apart your actions. ALSO first aid supplies are critical for us all.

Rob- I went through my medical kit yesterday. I forgot that I had gloves and a pair of shears in there.

Amanda- That is a good start. Maybe you can take a refresher class on first aid.

Rob- Is there anything else you want to talk about before we close the show?

Amanda- Keep training folks. Keep training – these are perishable tools.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Rob- After you listen to Amanda podcasts and watch her TV shows, then please leave her a message on our podcast episode webpage.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 307 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. What has been keeping you so busy, Robyn?

Robyn SandovalRobyn- Hi, Rob. I’ve been planning our 11th Annual A Girl & A Gun National Conference. We’ll have more than 600 students, 100 instructors, a small army of staff, along with vendors, sponsors, and friends. There will be over 1200 people on site and it’s always a fun time. How about you?

Rob- I was sick last week so we missed an episode. I’d like to thank our listeners who sent in stories for us to use. Thank you, Dwayne and Mel. (Is 336,184) We are still looking for volunteers to help on this podcast.

Robyn- We received three new ratings and a new comment on iTunes. A listener named JimV said, Self Defense Gun stories is a great source for mental ammunition. Close quote. He called us a vital part of training.

Rob- Thank you, JimV. Thank you for making us part of your self-defense training. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Robyn- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn.

The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Our first story took place last week in Interlachen Florida?

Rob- First story- Do you keep a firearm nearby at night?

You are a 67 year old woman. You’re woken up by sounds from the front of your house. You get out of bed. You pick up your gun and walk into the center of your home. You hear someone rattle your door knob. It is three in the morning and you wonder if your husband could be home from work early. You open your front door. A strange man pushes his way inside your home.

You shout for the stranger to leave and you point your gun at him. You shout for him to leave again. This time the stranger raises his arms and he has a gun in one hand. You shoot him one time in the chest. He drops his gun so you stop shooting. You step back and call 911 for help.

It is 3 in the morning and the police are already on their way. You meet the officers when they arrive at your home. They disarm your intruder. Emergency Medical Services take him to the hospital.

Earlier that morning, the stranger called the police and said he was hiding from his neighbors and there were people in orange clothes standing outside his home. Later, a woman called and said the stranger had jumped out a window with a gun and run down the street. Deputies were en route to the earlier calls when you shot your intruder.

The police chief said you did the right thing. You find out that your intruder died at the hospital. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- This started to read like a horror movie and it could have ended so much worse. I’m relieved that our defender was a gun owner. Her doors and windows were locked, thank goodness. She took her gun with her when she heard something happening in the middle of the night. When her intruder pushed his way past her, she tried verbal commands to defuse the situation. Our defender recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when the intruder raised his gun. She defended herself until the threat stopped. She retreated and called for help. She gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

A top-notch performance for being asleep a few seconds earlier.

Rob- Robyn, are there other things you would like us to do that weren’t included in this news report?

Robyn- We can’t think when we’re startled awake. Have a plan and to walk through it. When you do, you’ll see parts of your plan that don’t work the way you imagined. Make changes and walk through your emergency plan with your family once a week for the first few months. After a while, you can spread out the time between rehearsals.

You may not be able to think but you will know what to do because you practiced. You’ll also know what to avoid, like opening your door when you have someone at your door in the middle of the night.

Don’t open the door. Call the police. You can talk through the door. Better yet, you can shout from a doorway that is away from your door. If you don’t know the stranger who is banging on your door, then retreat to your bedroom and lock the door. Let the police deal with the crazy man.

Another thing that wasn’t mentioned, we want our gun out of our hands when the police arrive. We want to offer to press charges against our intruder and then testify against him in court.

Rob- Wow. you just touched on the highlights from a half-day class on self-defense in the home. Do you cover that or review it in your A Girl & A Gun chapters?

Robyn- Yes, it’s very common for our students to learn not only basic marksmanship so that she could place one, well-intentioned and legally justified shot in the right place on the target, but knowing the laws of what is justified, where, when, and how. It’s not just about surviving the self-defense incident, it’s also about surviving the fight that may happen with the justice system, so that you go home at the end of the day. A lot of these skills, the actions and words, are things responsibly armed citizens need to practice.

Rob- It sounds like defense in the home is like physical fitness or working in the garden. It is something you have to do time after time.

Robyn- We want you to have good habits, so of course that takes practice and review.

Rob- What else comes to mind?

Robyn- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home?

It is 8:30 in the evening when your security system alerts you. You check your phone and see a stranger standing on your back porch. No one rings the doorbell. You have your Illinois Concealed Carry License and you’re carrying concealed at home. You go out the back door and don’t see anyone. You hear someone in your garage. You go to the garage door and see a stranger inside. You tell him you’re armed and to put his hands up. He does. Your wife asks what is happening and you ask her to call 911. It seems as if the police are there in a minute, but it probably took longer.

You put your gun away as the police arrive. They arrest your intruder. You show the officers your ID and your carry license. The police leave with your intruder and you are not charged with a crime.

You see in the news that your intruder has a college degree and is unemployed and homeless. He is out on probation from trying to burn down a building. He also has outstanding warrants for his arrest on charges of aggravated battery of a peace officer. The judge did not let him out on bail this time.

Robyn- Let’s look at what this defender did right. He had his carry permit in Chicago. He had a security camera on his back door. He was carrying concealed at home. His security system was turned on, and he paid attention to it when the alarm went off. Someone was in his backyard so he went to see what was going on. Our defender stayed in the doorway or outside of his garage rather than enter an enclosed space with an intruder. He used verbal commands. He called for help, and then he and his wife worked as a team. They followed instructions as the police arrived, and they gave statements to the officers.

Rob- Is there more that you’d like your students to do if they hear someone on their back porch?

Robyn- Again, have a plan. And in this case, have a team plan! You both have your carry permits and you’re both armed at home. One of you calls the police. The other one turns on the light in the garage and waits out of the line of fire to see if someone is in there. It is not our job to identify, close with, and capture criminals. Get to a safe location and leave that job for professional law enforcement.

Work together with your partner so that if your partner says, ‘Honey, I think you should move back to a safer position.’ you can take a hint and not argue in the dark. It is not worth getting punched, cut, or shot as you’re protecting your lawn mower.

Rob- This is sort of an inbetween problem. Yes, it is our property but it is outside our home at night. When do your students learn about what to do in that situation?

Robyn- Yes this is a really personal decision. Do you even go outside to investigate? Perhaps you just stand vigilant watch from inside your home, perhaps you call the police. Or you could go see who or what is making the noise, if something is wrong or if someone needs help. It’s not always a criminal. However, whatever you do, don’t go passively. Have a plan, have self-defense tools, have a partner watching your back with phone in hand.

Rob- This is complicated. We’re meeting a stranger in the dark. When does it justify the use of lethal force?

Robyn- Knowing the laws of your state is critical. Here in Texas it is legal for the defense of that lawn mower or any property to use lethal force. However, that being said, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s the right call. Can you live with yourself morally, ethically, and would a jury of your peers consider your actions reasonable? There are many people in Texas jails because although they were within the law, the jury did not consider their actions reasonable. So plan for the totality of the circumstances and always follow the reasonable person theory.

In this case in Illinois, defending the lawn mower would not have been worth it for the same if not greater reasons. The laws there are structured entirely differently. A good rule of thumb is to quickly analyze: am I in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury? Am I trapped an unable to escape or avoid? Does this person have the ability and intent to kill me? If so, act out your plan.

Rob- Where are we going for our third story?

Robyn- We are heading to Denver, Colorado.

Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation.

Buckeye Firearms Foundationhttps://fastersaveslives.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed in public after you go shopping?

News1, News2, News3

You called the police when your car was stolen from a nearby shopping center. Car theft is a low priority with the police so you are tracing your car on your phone. You see your car ahead of you and start to walk up to it. The young men inside shoot at you. You are legally armed and you shoot back. The driver speeds away. You call 911 and again submit a report with the police.

Officers find your car a few blocks from where you were attacked. The thieves ran away and left the wounded driver in the car. EMS takes your attacker to the hospital. He has been a gang member since he was 10 years old. He is now 12. He died in the hospital. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- There are several things I want to say here, but we’ll start with what our defender did correctly. He recognized that he is his own first defender. He went through the process so he could legally carry concealed in public. He defended himself when he was being shot at, and he stopped shooting when his attackers drove away. He called 911 and asked for help. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police.

Rob- All that is true but the story is more complicated.

Robyn- It is. Some city governments have said they will not prosecute car theft and carjacking. That means that we are on our own. This honest citizen followed his car because the police wouldn’t.

The defunding of police and laws that limit the actions of citizens and law enforcement embolden criminals. Often gangs recruit young kids to do these crimes because they are highly profitable and younger kids will not be prosecuted because of their age. They learn it pays to be violent criminals. That breaks my heart.

Rob- That breaks everyone’s heart. It sounds like we have to plan for that as part of our defense. When do you talk to your students about armed defense in public?

Robyn- We have several training opportunities for members to learn about being in public. The greatest task is to be accurate – every round is a hit. It’s either hitting your target or hitting something you may not want to injury or damage. Always be mindful of what is behind your target, who can help you, who can hurt you, and what witness are watching and/or recording.

We don’t know what our attacker is going to look like. In this episode the attackers have ranged from 12 years old to 64 years old.

Rob- In some ways we are safer than ever since we now have electronic car keys that should never leave our pocket. We also have the ability to track our cars on our phone.

Robyn- We are safer at some places and at some times. Unfortunately, criminals go wherever we are to rob us so we are never completely secure.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Robyn- Our fourth story took place in El Paso, Texas.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public?

And here.

It is about 5pm and you are in a large shopping mall with your friends. You are standing near the food court on the second floor when you see two groups of teenagers start to fight. You hear shouts and then you hear gunshots. One of the young men shoots into the crowd. People are running everywhere. You see the attacker as he runs toward your friends, and he has his gun pointed at you.

You have your Texas license to carry. You’re armed tonight. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker until he drops his gun. You stop shooting. You shout for people to call the police. The news reports don’t mention if you called 911 too.

You stay at the scene. News reports aren’t clear when you lower your firearm and reholster it. An off-duty police officer working at the mall arrives on the scene. You identify yourself. You help the officer apply trauma care to the injured. Your attacker was sixteen years old and the victims he shot were two 17-year-olds and a 20-year-old.

One of the injured 17 year olds ran into a nearby store and died. The rest of the injured teenagers are taken to the hospital. The 16-year-old murderer is expected to survive. The gun he used was stolen.

You give a complete report to the police. Later, you find out that there were two other individuals in the food court who were legally armed and did not respond to the shooting. You’re not charged.

Robyn- We go to the mall to go shopping, and I always have a few different self-defense tools with me.

In this case, our defender also recognized that armed defense could be necessary in a shopping mall while he was traveling with his friends. He was a gun owner and he went through the process to get his concealed carry license. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to himself and other innocent parties. He defended himself, and then he stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He stayed at the scene and followed instructions. He later gave a complete report to the police.

Rob- Are there other things you want your students to do that were not covered in this news story?

Robyn- I noticed that the defender worked with the policeman to treat the injured. The reason we have a firearm is to save lives. I know first aid. I have a knife and a tourniquet in my pocket or my purse. I can help save lives when the threat stops. You want to be able to save your friend’s lives if they were injured.

Rob- We’re told not to treat our attacker, but there are other injured victims in this case. When do you talk to your students about that? They come to you to learn firearms safety and basic marksmanship. Now you’re talking about concealed carry and trauma kits.

Robyn- I am a lifesaver. I need to treat my own injuries and those of my family. Once I have those skills, I’m there to help other innocent people.

Rob- I dry practice once a week. It has been months since I even looked at my medical kit. What should I do?

Robyn- Practice on your own. Practice with your family. If you’re a woman, then come out with A Girl & A Gun chapters around the country and practice with your friends.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- Look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages. We have chapters all across the country.

Rob- After you look at Robyn’s events, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 306 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by self-defense instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you so busy?

David- Hi, Rob. I’ve been loading ammo for USPSA season and getting ready to go to Africa.

How about you?

Rob- I went to a state activism meet up in Florida. That was great. The bad news is that my home range is so wet and muddy.

We have some good news from our listeners. They gave us four new ratings and a new comment on iTunes (is 333,182).

Strat-man said, “I like how quick and concise the stories are. Great advice, and safety is mentioned in every story.”

David- Thank you, Strat-man. We try.

On our web page, Stan left a message saying, “I’ve been listening to your podcast for several years. It’s a great reminder that things can go bad really quickly without any notice. The analysis of each story gets me thinking about what I would do in that situation.

Rob- Thank you Stan. It sounds like you are doing your homework.

We’re trying to grow this podcast. Please share it with a friend and leave a rating on the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts.

David- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Phoenix, Arizona.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive at night?

Driver robbed at convenience store.

You pull into a convenience store. It is Saturday night and the sun set a half hour ago. You are standing next to your car pumping gas when a stranger comes up to you. This stranger has a gun in his hand. He points his gun at you and tells you to hand over your belongings. You say you will. You step to the back of your car and grab a gun you keep there. You shoot your attacker at least three times. The attacker drops his gun and you stop shooting. You back away and the attacker falls to the ground. You call 911 and ask for help.

You stay at the scene. Police take your attacker’s gun. EMTs transport him to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. The police interview the store clerk who saw the attack.Your attacker died at the hospital.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- I’m glad our defender owned a gun. He recognized when he was in danger. He defended himself and then stopped shooting. He got to safety and called 911. He stayed at the scene and gave the police a statement.

Rob- Do you see other points you want to cover that were not mentioned in the news articles?

David- What the news story doesn’t tell us is how the defender got his gun without getting shot. We have concealed carry laws for a reason. It would have been better to have a gun on your person and not depend on running to the back seat of your car where you store your gun. This is just one reason I have a big problem with the idea of a “car gun.” I debated this exact scenario with a friend a few days ago.

If you have your gun stored in your car, then not only do you not have it at the moment you need it, you likely are not wearing a holster, and don’t have a safe place to put your firearm after you use it. You’re at risk when you run into the convenience store with a gun in your hand. You’re certainly at risk of giving witnesses the wrong impression.

Another is that if you leave the immediate area, the robber’s buddy could pick up your attacker’s gun and leave with it. Now you’re depending on security video to corroborate your claim that you were threatened.

The good news is that this robber probably had a criminal record so he was known to the police.

Rob- I remember reading that most attackers are intoxicated when they commit their crimes. Does that fit with your experience?

David- Honestly, it can be highly variable. Don’t forget that many criminals are professionals, in that this is how they make their living. They can be quite sober and deliberate in their actions.

Rob- When do new gun owners learn how to defend themselves with a concealed firearm?

David- Once basic safety and what I call “mechanical marksmanship” is learned, training can begin on defensive shooting skills, normally in a dedicated class beyond the basic concealed carry class.

Rob- How should they practice that?

David- Seek out a reputable instructor who can coach proper draw and presentation, along with other more advanced shooting problems.

Rob- Where are we going for our next story?

David- Our second story happened in East Hartford, Connecticut.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed when you stay late at work?

Business owner shot in the back by robber.

You own a clothing store that sells to teenagers and young adults. You make your own designs. It is late Thursday night and you’re getting ready to close the shop for the day. Two men walk in wearing black ski masks. You ask how you can help them. They start to move behind the counter toward the cash register. You push them back. One of the robbers gets behind you and shoots you in the back. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker several times. He drops his gun and falls to the floor so you stop shooting. Your second robber is already out the door.

You call 911 and ask for help. You stay at the scene. Emergency Medical Services treat your wound. You are taken to the hospital for treatment of a non-life threatening injury to your lower back. The EMTs also treat your attacker. He is taken to the hospital where he is declared dead.

Police look at video from other businesses and from your security cameras. You explain to the officers that you shot your attacker with one of your two firearms. The news isn’t clear if you carry on body or if your guns are kept behind the counter.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- It is harder to face two attackers than to face one of them. I’m glad that our defender thought about protecting himself and was armed. Our defender was shot and still saved his own life. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He stayed at the scene. Asked for help, and got treatment from EMTs.

Rob- Is there more you want your students to do?

David- Again, I want you to wear your gun on you so you don’t have to turn around when you’re behind the counter to grab your gun. Get your carry permit so you are armed in your store and as you leave late at night.

I like that the defender didn’t run down the street after the bad guy. This attack happened at about 10:30 at night, and I want you to lock your doors after business hours.

Rob- At first I thought I had to shoot fast. Now I think I have to shoot when the attacker isn’t paying attention. When do your students learn about that?

David- We’re probably fast enough to get in the first shot, but that isn’t enough. We want to have such an advantage that we can defend ourselves without getting shot at. Put the money tray on the counter and then back away. Draw as they look at the money. You have to decide if you should shoot the armed attacker first or shoot the closest attacker first.

Rob- When will new students learn those sorts of details about armed defense?

David- Right here, for starters!

But many best practices for home defense will also apply to a business, so any class like the NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home course would be a great place to start.Rob- Where are we headed next?David- Our third story happened in El Paso, Texas.

Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

JPFO.orgJPFO http://jpfo.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?

It is just after noon on Monday. A customer walks up to the counter in your convenience store. Instead of putting an item on the counter and reaching for his wallet, the customer raises his shirt to show you a handgun tucked into the waistband of his pants. “Give me the money,” he says.

You own a gun too. You have your carry permit and you are carrying concealed today. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. He falls down and you step away. You call 911 and ask for help.

You meet the police and EMTs when they arrive. Police take your attacker’s gun and EMTs take him to the hospital in serious but stable condition.

You give a statement to the police. You show them your ID and your carry permit.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- This clerk recognized that he had a dangerous job. He bought a firearm. He applied for his carry permit. He carried concealed and thought about how to defend himself

When it happened in broad daylight, the clerk recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat. We don’t know if or how he tried to distract the robber. Maybe there were other customers in the store.

Rob- What else should we keep in mind?

David-

Be aware of customers in the store who should not be in your line of fire.

After you shoot, it is a tough call if you should disarm your attacker. Lock the door and check on any other customers or employees who might be injured. Ask them to call 911, and you call 911 as well.

The news reports don’t mention any security video, and that is unusual. Given the dangers of your job, you should have self-defense insurance so you are legally represented.

Rob- What difference would that make in this case?

David- You have one chance to make a first impression. You want your lawyer available when you make your statement to the police. There are a number of legal points that you have to mention so that you justify the legal use of lethal force. If you forget one of them, say you forgot to mention that you were trapped behind the counter and couldn’t run away and you are in a state which has a duty to retreat law, then the fact that you did not attempt to flee first could be used against you. Having your attorney available can help you to avoid those pitfalls.

Rob- That is important.

David- I study this. I teach this. I am not a lawyer and I want a lawyer to start to defend me before I’m charged.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?David- Our fourth story took place in Haines City, Florida.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you arrive home?

It is after midnight when you and your girlfriend drive up to your house. The two of you walk inside and are surprised by two intruders who are waiting for you. You present your firearm and shoot the closest intruder several times. You and your girlfriend run back out of the house. Your puppy follows you. The two of you and your dog get back in your car and drive away. You call the police and ask for help. The police meet you as you are headed to the police station. You guide them back to your home.

Your home is empty, but the police find blood stains. They use a police dog to track your intruder. When they find him, they apply emergency first aid to treat his wounds. EMTs are able to get him to the hospital where he remains in serious condition.

You and your girlfriend give statements to the police. You show them your IDs and your concealed carry permit. Your attacker had a history of criminal convictions including arrests for grand and petit theft, burglary, loitering and prowling. The police find some of your property in the attacker’s pockets. He is charged with burglary of a residence and grand theft.

The chief of police made a statement about your attack, “If you are brazen enough to enter someone’s residence with intent to commit an unlawful act, there may be repercussions. We live in Polk County, and most people are armed.” Close quote.

You are not charged with a crime.

David- Yikes. Not only are you defending yourself, but you are defending a loved one as well. If you’ve practiced together then that makes you better defenders. If not, then it is harder to defend both of you.

Our defender stopped shooting when the threat turned and ran. I like that our victims retreated and called the police. The victims said it isn’t safe in our home so we want to meet you at the police station.

Also, the defender had his carry permit so that tells the arriving officers that he has a clean criminal record. Most of the people the deputy sees who are involved in violent conflicts do not have their carry permits, so you stand out as a good guy.

Rob- Talk to me about Castle Doctrine.

David- One thing that really struck me was that in the statement the police chief gave in the news video, he referred to this case as an example of “stand your ground,” which is incorrect. Stand your ground refers to not having a legal duty to retreat when in public. That’s not what happened here. What happened here was an example of “Castle Doctrine”, which refers to laws which allow a defender to assume that an intruder in their residence intends to harm them, and that they are not required to flee their home. If they break in then we don’t have to wait for them to threaten us before we defend ourselves or our family. If the police don’t understand this distinction…well, remember when we talked about having a lawyer handy in the previous story? This is why.

Rob- Then what is the stand your ground law?

David- Again, stand your ground refers to laws which specify that in public, in a place where you have a right to be, that you do not have a duty to retreat from a threat. We have to face an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat, but we don’t have to run away. In contrast, the duty to retreat laws say we have to remove ourselves from the threat as far as we can if we can do that safely. Then a prosecutor can claim it was safe to retreat and we have to prove it wasn’t.

We might want to retreat and lock our bedroom door if we have enough warning, but that is a tactical decision.

Rob- When will new gun owners learn about when they should use a gun and when they should not use one?

David- Any basic concealed carry class should cover the legal aspects of self defense, including concepts such as duty to retreat, stand your ground, and castle doctrine.

Rob- Say I did that years ago. How should we refresh and review that information?

David- I would recommend an annual review, as state legislatures could update applicable laws during any session.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. David, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Look for my written articles at deltabravocharlie.com My latest article is about why shooting to wound is an awful idea.

Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast webpage.

David- We share this podcast with you for free. Find us on

Amazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean, and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 305 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What has been keeping you so busy?

Heather ReevesHeather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been teaching chemistry and teaching firearms. I’m making a big push this year to get more people to train beyond their basic classes and I’m excited to say, I’m seeing an uptick in attendance. Gold stars to everyone who’s listening to this podcast.

How about you?

Rob- I’ve been so busy that I can only exercise and dry practice. A new order of ammunition came in so I’m eager for the weather to dry out so I can go to the range. We are still looking for volunteer assistants to help make this podcast.

The podcast received several new ratings and a new comment on iTunes (is 181,329). A listener called BigFweshy said they are excited to add our podcast to their mental repertoire. Carry on.

Heather- Thank you, BF. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun why you listen.

Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. Each week we look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Houston, Texas.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home late at night?It is just before midnight when you hear strange sounds outside your house. You go outside to see what is happening. You hear and see someone breaking into your neighbor’s house. Your neighbors are away. You shout for the intruder to stop. They stop for a few seconds. Then, they turn and charge you.

You’re armed. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker. Now he stops. You stop shooting. You call 911 and wait for the police to arrive.

You holster your gun and give the police a statement. The police declare your attacker dead at the scene from a single gunshot wound to the upper center chest.

Police say they have to submit the case to the district attorney to see if he wants to forward it to the grand jury.

Heather- I read different news reports and some said that our defender was house sitting for his neighbor.

I’m glad he owned a firearm.

I’m very glad he took his firearm with him when he went outside.

I like that he recognized a problem and tried to defuse the situation by giving verbal commands.

He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat when a stranger charged him in the middle of the night.

He defended himself until his attacker stopped. Our defender called 911. He asked for help and stayed at the scene.

Rob- At midnight no less. Is there more you want us to do if we hear a noise outside?

Heather- Call 911 and get help on the way. If you have to go outside, bring someone with you. Keep your distance and bring a very bright flashlight.

Consider this- If you wouldn’t go outside your own home to investigate, then don’t go outside to investigate a bump outside your neighbor’s home. Call the police and walk the property with them.

Rob- When do you tell your students about bumps in the night?

Heather- During our Concealed handgun class there’s an entire section where I ask my students to think about background normal. The types of things that we “know” should be there, and the types of things that we “know” shouldn’t be there. And then we talk about how to plan for the surprises.

Rob- Is there a time when your students would work out a home safety plan?

Heather- I encourage it even prior to firearm ownership. Home safety plans transcend firearm ownership and having a plan is something that can make the difference in a myriad of different situations. From fire and natural disaster, to home invasion or stranger knocking on the door, having a plan that includes everyone who lives in the home is critical.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover before we go on to the next story?

Heather- That covers it for now. Our second story happened in Oak Lawn, Illinois.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in your driveway in the afternoon?It is about 3:30 on a Wednesday. You are standing next to your car in your driveway when two young men run up to you. They are wearing masks. They are also carrying guns in their hands. They demand your wallet and your car keys.

You own a gun too. Unlike your attackers, you have your Illinois firearms owners identification card in your wallet. This afternoon, you are carrying your Illinois Concealed Carry License along with your concealed handgun.

You step back and present your firearm. You shoot at your attackers. They run. You stop shooting as they jump into a black jeep and drive away. You call 911 and ask for help. You go inside and holster your firearm.

You meet the police when they arrive. You show them your ID and your carry license. You give the officers a brief statement. The police have security videos of the cars the robber’s used.

Carjackings have surged several fold from last year. You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- The first story was in the middle of the night and this is in the middle of the afternoon. I’m glad our defender was legally armed in his driveway. He stopped shooting when his attackers drove away. He called and asked for help. Well done.

Rob- Is there more you want us to do that isn’t mentioned in the news story?

Heather- Our good guy faced two armed robbers and didn’t get shot. Everything else is extra credit points on his exam.

Put all your gear into one bag so it is easy to have your hands empty as you move between your car and your house.

Create a distraction.

Fill your robber’s hands.

Move as you draw.

Move to cover.

Rob- This is more than marksmanship and concealed carry. When do your students learn to present a firearm?

Heather- Presenting from a holster is not an advanced skill. I offer a holster fundamentals course that gets students working from the holster as soon as they have gun safety down.

Rob- When do they learn to move as they present?

Heather- It’s discussed as part of all of our defensive curriculums, but practiced in the classes that come after the concealed handgun course. Mentally it should be practiced every time they consider a defensive scenario.

Rob- Where can they practice that?

Heather- If your range allows for movement, practice explosive movement while drawing. However, I know for many of you, dynamic range time is an issue, so I would suggest working it into dry fire practice.

Be explosive and move, practice side and back movement. Although keep the backward movement to one to two steps and make it a “J” step accompanied with sideways motion.

Rob- Where are we going next?Our third story happened last week in Alhambra, California.

Rob- First this message from Amanda Suffecool.Amanda SuffecoolRob- Third story- Are you a defender at work?and https://concealednation.org/2023/01/los-angeles-mass-shooter-reportedly-tried-second-location-unarmed-man-wrestled-his-gun-away/

and

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2023/01/23/monterey-park-california-mass-shooting-timeline-details/11102307002/

You are working at an asian ballroom on Chinese new years. It is 10:40 at night when you hear someone come in the front door. You hear the unusual sound of metal on metal. You turn to see an older man who isn’t dressed for a new years party. He is carrying a large handgun in his hands. He is scanning the crowd. He sees you and you think you are about to die.

You lunge for your attacker and grab the firearm. You fight for it. You throw each other against the wall and throw fists and elbows. You rip the gun from his hands. You turn the gun on the intruder and tell him to leave. You think you’ll have to shoot him, but he turns and runs.

You have the gun in your hands when you call 911. You’re still shaking when you ask for help. You put the gun down when the police arrive. You give the officers a statement. You show the police the security video from the lobby.

Your attacker murdered 9 people at an asian dance hall earlier that night. He killed himself when the police located him. Gun-controlled California had four mass murders this week.

You are 26 years old. You are not charged with a crime.

Tag- no shots fired

Heather- Happy new year. I’m so glad our defender believed what he saw and then defended himself and others. He fought for control of the firearm. That might have been the smart thing to do even if he was armed because the attacker was so close to him. I like that he used the firearm for his own defense, and then didn’t shoot when the attacker was no longer an immediate threat. He called 911 and asked for help. I’m glad the ballroom had video security.

This guy was a hero and saved lives.

Rob- Was there more you’d like your students to do if they were in a situation like this one?

Heather- Go armed.

Have backup help that is armed.

Know some hand to hand skills.

Shout for help so that other people will come to your aid. Maybe they could have tackled the bad guy.

Don’t assume that the attacker only has one weapon. This murderer killed himself with another handgun.

Lock the doors when the attacker leaves.

Get everyone away from the doors. Ask witnesses to call 911.

Get your manager’s help. Make sure your customers aren’t injured.

Learn some first aid. Have unarmed volunteers meet the police and have the volunteers guide the police to you. Do not have a firearm in your hands when the police see you. Maybe you could lock the attacker’s firearm in one of the offices.

Rob- When would a small business owner learn about physical security for his staff and his customers?

Heather- Being a small business owner is tough. Sometimes you have to seek out additional training from other businesses that you can trust. Try reaching out to a firearms trainer or self-defense trainer that specializes in mass casualty incidents. Work with them to make your business a hard target through physical and mental preparation for your whole staff.

Rob- Is that a single visit, or does that take several sessions?

Heather- It will depend a bit on how far along you are in your personal preparation as there may be a lot you can do before they come in. However, I would plan on at least a few sessions at the beginning and conduct a brush up once or twice a year if at all possible. There’s always more we can do, and there’s always more to learn or be reminded of.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Heather- Our fourth story took place in New Hartford, New York.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you go out to eat?You’re eating dinner at a restaurant in central New York State. It is almost 7 at night when you hear several of the restaurant staff talk to a customer. The customer argues and starts a pushing match. The customer runs to the bar and grabs a steak knife. He turns on the restaurant employees and slashes with his knife. One of the wounded victims grabs his face where he has been cut. Another employee backs up having been cut.

You own a gun. You have your New York license to carry. You’re armed tonight. You step forward and tell the attacker to stop. You present your firearm and the attacker drops his knife. You tell him to get down on the ground. Your attacker does so.

The police receive many calls about the attack. You stay at the scene and holster your firearm when the police arrive. You show the officers your ID and your carry permit. The police arrest the attacker. You give the police a brief statement. News reports did not mention what happened to the injured restaurant employees.

The attacker had been asked to leave the restaurant a few days ago. He was charged with one count of Attempted Assault in the 2nd degree, which is a felony, two counts of Assault in the third degree, and one count of Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the 4th degree. Those are misdemeanors. The attacker was taken to a hospital for a mental evaluation.

The new concealed carry law in New York State makes it a crime to have a firearm in any business that does not have a “guns welcome” sign. It is also a crime to carry your firearm into a business that sells alcohol. You are not charged with a crime.

Tag- No Shots Fired.

Heather- I’m glad our defender recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to innocent parties. Two people were injured but it could have been so much worse. Our good guy had every justification to press the trigger, but he tried verbal commands and that worked. He didn’t shoot. He stayed at the scene, and he gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Verbal commands worked in this case.

Heather- If the threat is a second away, then we don’t have to press the trigger. If the threat is face down on the floor then we want our finger off the trigger and the gun pointed at the floor in a safe direction while we wait for the police. I’d use the compressed ready or the sul position.

Like the earlier story, we want to make sure that the restaurant staff are on the phone with the police, and that someone will meet them and identify us as the good guy.

Rob- When do you talk to your students about having a gun and not having it aimed at a good guy or a bad guy?

Heather- This is the primary emphasis in our concealed handgun class during our gun handling portion. With the amount of media coverage many of these incidents get, and with the prevalence of recording devices you have to know that someone will see you point a gun at something or someone that it shouldn’t be pointed at. You have to be prepared to explain why.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Heather- New York state hates gun owners. You want legal insurance so you look like a hard person to convict.

Rob- When do your students learn about the legal use of lethal force?

Heather-Their first exposure comes during the concealed handgun course. We have a legal responsibility as gun owners, and personal first responders to understand the ramifications of our actions mentally, physically, and emotionally.

Rob- Armed defense in public is hard. Defense of others can be tactically more demanding because there are more moving pieces. How would your students learn about that if they didn’t go to TacCon?

Heather- I recommend online resources such as active self protection videos, this podcast, and running some scenarios in a force on force class, or scenario based training. There are also some fantastic books that have been written on the realities of the legal system, and combat. If nothing else, learn like we did before the internet, pick up a book.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Heather- Find me at my gun store website,

Wolverinedefenseacademy.com. I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter.

Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 304 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Ben Branam. What keeps you so busy?

Ben- Hi, Rob. I’ve been shooting and training.

How about you?

Rob- We received a new ratings and comment on iTunes (is 180,326). Vfretty said we provide great information. Also, thank you to Mel for sending us some stories.

Ben- Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Montville, Ohio.

Rob- First story- Do you have a firearm nearby in the afternoon?

You’re a sixteen year old male. You arrive home from school. You’re home alone. You walk past the living room windows when you notice a car parked sideways across your driveway. That seems odd, so you walk into the kitchen where you have a better view. There is a stranger coming up the driveway and you don’t recognize him.

You know your mom has a firearm. You run and grab it. You stand in the doorway to the living room away from the front door. You hear someone open the outside door. You put the magazine in the gun. You wonder if they are delivering a package. The intruder opens the inside door and you rack the slide to chamber a cartridge. You point the handgun at the intruder. He sees you and swears. He turns and runs. You lower the gun.

You lock the door and call your mom. Were you expecting visitors? Did you have a delivery scheduled, you ask?

Your mom calls the police. You see the burglar’s car drive by again. Your mom posts the incident on social media. The police get security videos from the neighbors. Police identify the car and arrest your intruder. You identify the intruder in a police lineup. He is charged with burglary.

You are not charged with a crime. The only connection between you and your intruder is that he is a facebook friend with your mom. Your mom says we shouldn’t post our schedule on social media. She installed a security camera.

Ben- I love that the mom and the son talked about armed defense. She decided that he was old enough to defend himself. He’d been hunting before.

I would like the gun to be staged better, it should be ready to go. But the Young man acted as soon as something seemed wrong. That gave him time to get the gun and think about what to do.

Listen to his interview. Great presence of mind. Didn’t shoot.

Called for help.

Good that mom asked for help too.

Rob- Is there more that you’d like us to do?

Ben- Please lock your doors. Let’s make your attackers work to get to you. And don’t open the door to strangers no matter what.

Formal firearms training for everyone who has access to your guns.

Rob- We train young adults based on their maturity rather than their age. How do we judge when they are old enough?

Ben- I leave that up to the parents to judge when they can make those decisions. If you are struggling as a parent use the car as a guide. If you would trust him to take the car and make good decisions, remember he is making the same life decisions with the car as they would with a gun.

Rob- Are there special classes for youngsters?

Ben- Lots of young people classes for handling a firearm to get the basics but not many self defense classes. I teach them along side the adults and it works well.

Rob- I remember competing with youngsters who were shooting 22s while we were shooting 9mm and 45s. They learned safe firearms handling and had fun with their parents.

Ben- Some of them shoot really well.

Rob- Anything else?

Ben- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Avondale, Arizona.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/gas-station-clerk-shoots-suspect-who-tried-robbing-store-avondale-police-say/ar-AA16ukVv

https://dailycaller.com/2023/01/19/gas-station-clerk-arizona-stops-robbery-with-own-gun/

https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2023/01/arizona-gas-station-clerk-shoots-armed-robbery-suspect-report.html

You’re working the graveyard shift at a convenience store. It is an hour before sunrise when one of your customers walks up to the counter. He is wearing a mask. You see that he has a gun in his hand. He mumbles something about money from the register. You’re being robbed.

You’re armed and carrying concealed this morning. The robber points his gun at the other customer in line at the checkout counter. Then, the robber turns and points his gun at a customer at the front of the store. You present your firearm and shoot your attacker until he drops his gun. You call 911 and ask for help.

Emergency Medical Services take your attacker to the hospital in critical condition. Police look at the store security videos. You are not charged.

Ben- We always think of cops only having to deal with dangerous people but the truth is they are always with us. Whenever you go out you could run into a bad guy.

In this story I love that our good guy was armed, saw the threat and waited for his point of advantage and then acted decisively. Like our first story our defender just acted. It’s not the movies you are not required to give a “Drop the gun” command before using force and in a lot of cases you probably shouldn’t. After the action the good guy did the right things by giving a short statement and getting the video to police.

Rob- Are there other things you’d like us to do that were not mentioned in the story?

Ben- the story said our good guy thought about this and trained, remember you can always play the what if game sitting at home and listening to these stories. What would you do if you were there?

And when you do that, don’t forget the aftermath. Make sure other people are okay, you call the police and give just the very basics of what happened and think about what you will do while you are waiting for the police to get there and what you will do once the police arrive.

Rob- We talk about that in marksmanship, but it has been a while since I practiced that. When would your students develop those habits?

Ben- all of the skills are taught at any good training class. The habits have to be learned by you thinking about this stuff and practicing at home in dry practice. Our third story happened in Sanford, Florida.

Rob- First this message from Amanda Suffecool.

Amanda SuffecoolRob- Third story- Are you armed when you drive at night?

Boyfriend stops carjacking.

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/shooting-call-being-investigated-at-georges-tavern-in-sanford-officials-say

You’re a bartender and manager at a neighborhood tavern. It is 2 in the morning. You’re closing up for the day. You call your boyfriend. He waits outside for you. You turn off the lights and lock the doors.

You walk to your car when a stranger jumps out of a porta-potty that is sitting in the parking lot. The stranger hits you from behind. He grabs you by the throat and knocks you down. Your attacker gets on top of you and bangs your head against the asphalt. Your attacker rips open your blouse.

Your boyfriend sees you being attacked. He gets out of his car and runs across the parking lot. He presents his firearm and shoots your attacker several times. Your attacker gets up and runs. Your boyfriend runs up to you and asks how you are? He calls 911 and asks for help.

You and your boyfriend stay at the scene. You thought the attacker was going to kill you. Police find your dead attacker at the back of the parking lot. Security video shows your attacker hiding in the toilet for the last few hours while he waited for you to leave and walk to your car. Some reports say he was a customer inside the bar earlier that day.

Your boyfriend is not charged with a crime.

Ben- This was a team effort. The bartender recognized that she had a dangerous job leaving the bar at 2AM. Her boyfriend offered to escort her to her car. She called him and he came. He was armed. He recognized an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat when she was attacked. He stopped the attack and then stopped shooting.

He stayed at the scene rather than chase the attacker. He focused on the safety of his girlfriend. They called for help and gave a statement to the police. I like that they had security videos of inside and outside the bar.

Rob- What would you like your students to do?

Ben- It looks like she left by the back door. Cameras at the back door where they take deliveries.

Can they alarm the front door that has streetlights and traffic going by rather than the back of the bar that is isolated at 2am. Can we have more than one employee lock up at night? Can you be armed at work?

Rob- That is way beyond your concealed carry course. When do small business owners learn about best practice for the safety of their employees?

Ben- They don’t. Unless they hire a security expert to help them. The problem is always, that when nothing bad is happening no one thinks about it. This bar owner will redo his security effort now that something happened. A couple years from now, if nothing else happens they will forget about it and go to whatever is easiest again. Until something else happens. It is the most frustrating thing as a security expert.

Ben- Lets go to our fourth story which took place in Bridgeton, Missouri.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you stop your car for gasoline?

You are filling your car with gas after work. It is already dark. You’re putting the gas cap back on the tank when you hear your car door open. You see the inside light come on. Someone has climbed into your car. You jump into the back seat. You hit the robber. You reach into your purse and you draw your handgun. Now the robber opens the driver’s side door and dives out of your car. You have to climb over the seat to put on the brakes. You shut off your car and call the police.

Police look at the security video of your attack. The car that the thieves were driving didn’t have license plates. The police post video of your attacker on the news and on social media. You are not charged.

Ben- I like that the defender was armed. The news video said that she’d had her car stolen before. I like that her gun was on her body and she took her purse with her when she got out of the car to pump gas.

Rob- Is there more you’d want your students to do when they fill up?

Ben- Lock the doors and turn off the car. This type of “slider” crime is becoming very popular. Lock your doors while you pump gas. And learn how your door locks work on your car so that you can use them effectively.

Rob- When do you talk about that with your students?

Ben- Constantly. Be aware of your surroundings and what type of crime is happening in your area and what is on the rise. All of this stuff comes in waves and if one person thought it was a good way to victimize someone, another dirtbag will think the same thing and try it.

Rob- Have you had a chance to practice defense around your car?

Ben- I have. I’ve taken classes in the military, law enforcement, and from other self defense instructors. If you can find someone teaching self defense around your vehicle, take the course.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Ben Branam, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Ben- I teach armed self-defense and church security. I live in San Antonio, and most of my classes are in central Texas. Sign up for my classes at Modern Self Protection.com, and subscribe to my weekly podcast called Modern Self-Protection.

Rob- Please leave Ben a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Ben- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 303 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Candy Petticord. What has been keeping you so busy?

Candy- Hi, Rob. I’ve been busy with my girl and a gun club. How about you?

Rob- I was traveling for a week. Even though I was out of the country I still received messages from our listeners. We are still looking for volunteers to help run this podcast.

We also received three new ratings and a comment on iTunes (is 179,325). A listener commented on a shooting in Houston, Texas where the defender was sitting at a restaurant. He shot the armed attacker nine times, including when the attacker was face down and motionless.

Candy- I heard about that story. We have to legally justify every shot we fire. When the threat stops then we have to stop. The defender also left the scene before speaking to police.

Rob- It sounds like this defender did not listen to this podcast.

Candy- Let’s see if we can get more listeners. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Rob- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Candy- Our first story took place last week in Ada, Oklahoma.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive?

It is about 9 at night when you stop at a convenience store to buy gasoline. You’re filling your car when someone drives by you quickly and then suddenly comes to a stop in the parking lot. The driver gets out of his car and runs at you. You recognize him as a man who has threatened you before. You shout for him to stop as you reach for your handgun. Your attacker closes with you. You shoot him until he stops. You shout for help and stay at the scene.

You put your gun into your car before the police arrive. Police and Emergency Medical Services begin treatment of your attacker for gunshot wounds to his arm, chest, and collar bone.

You give the police a statement. You tell the police that you had a protective order against your attacker last year. You’re arrested and jailed.

The district attorney reviews the security video. He also reviews the several restraining orders that were out against your attacker. The DA says you acted in self-defense and did not commit a crime. You are released from jail.

Candy- Yikes. I’m glad our defender was armed. I’m glad he took out a restraining order on his attacker. I like that he was paying attention rather than having his head buried in his phone. He recognized an immediate and lethal threat and took action. It sounds like he used verbal commands, and then defended himself.

Note that he was arrested, and then released. Please understand that being arrested at the scene of a defensive incident is very common and should be expected. However, please remember this sage advice: Keep your mouth shut until your lawyer arrives to tell your side of the story.

Rob- Why was this attack a lethal threat?

Candy-

Rob- When do your students learn to recognize a lethal threat that justifies the use of lethal force like using a firearm?

Candy-

Rob- When do your students learn to present their handgun from a standing position?

Candy-

Rob- Is there more you’d like us to do in a situation like this one?

Candy- Retreat to cover.Rob- Most ranges won’t let you move as you shoot. Are there drills where your students learn to step back as they present their firearm?

Candy-

Rob- Is there more you want to say about this story?

Candy- Let’s save some material for the other news stories. Our second story happened in Des Moines, Iowa.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work?

You are a property manager at a downtown apartment complex. Your office is upstairs and opens onto an elevated walkway that connects the downtown buildings. You are about to leave your office when you notice a strange couple walking back and forth in front of your door. This goes on for several minutes until the woman waves to you.

You don’t recognize her. Your young son is with you and he wants to go investigate. You hold his hand as you open the door and ask what the strangers want. The woman says to give her back her child and she reaches down and grabs your son. You hold on tight to your son with one hand and present your firearm with the other. You shout to “let go of my kid.” The strangers run away and you pull your son back inside your office.

You call the security guard who patrols that part of the skywalk system. You describe your attackers to the guard. He recognizes them and runs to follow them. You call 911 and ask for help.

The security guard sees your attackers and calls the police. The couple is arrested and charged with felony child stealing. The woman is also charged with violating her probation.

The couple are homeless and there is a homeless shelter nearby. The security guard noticed them when they tried to set up camp in the skyway.

Tag- no shots fired

Candy- This is every mom’s nightmare.

Locked office door.

She held on to her child.

Armed.

Recognized a lethal threat to her child. Called for help.

Rob- This story could have been frighteningly different if her office door were open and a stranger could reach in and grab her child. Is there more that wasn’t covered in this story?

Candy- Contact with your neighbors. In this case, she knew the local security guard who patrolled the skyways.

Rob- Was this armed mom justified in shooting the kidnappers?

Candy-

Rob- We don’t talk about kidnapping very often. When would your students learn the legal principles involved in armed defense?

Candy-

Rob- Is there more you want to cover?

Candy- We have a certain amount of risk everywhere. At home, at a park, at our office. I’m glad our defender was armed even though she was at work. She probably lived in the building too, but she wanted to protect her family all the time.

Rob- Where are we headed for our third story?Candy- Our third story happened in Hammond, Louisiana.

Rob- First this message from Amanda Suffecool.

Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night?

You hear a crashing sound and feel your house shake. You sit up in bed. It is about 5 o’clock on a Sunday morning and it is still dark outside. A stranger pulls open your bedroom door and moves toward you. He has a shovel in one hand and a tire iron in the other hand.

You roll over and grab your handgun from the side table. You shoot your attacker one time. Now he backs up. You scramble out of bed and check on your two children. When he entered your home, your attacker walked past your child who was asleep on the couch. Your children are uninjured and you call 911 asking for help.

You stay at the scene. You put your gun away when the police arrive. You give the police a brief statement. You don’t know your attacker.

Police identify your attacker as a parolee recently released from prison. He was convicted of drug crimes and armed robbery. Your attacker tried to carjack a driver this morning. The police speculate that your attacker wanted to steal your car and was looking for your keys.

The coroner’s office declare your attacker dead at the scene. You and your children move out of your rented mobile home.

Candy- This is the second story with an armed mom defending her children. Are you out to frighten me this week?

Rob- Is there more you’d like us to do?

Candy- motion detectors? Have a plan with your family.

Rob- How did a single mom wake up and stop a grown man who had two clubs in his hands?

Candy- Defense vs offense

Rob- How will your students find out about safety in their homes?

Candy-

Rob- It sounds like these were young children in the home. Tell me about storing your firearms, and about how old our children should be when they start to learn to defend themselves.

Candy-

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Candy- Our fourth story took place in Ellijay, Georgia.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you stop for gas?

The sun is setting when you pull into a convenience store in this very small Georgia town. You’re walking through the store when you hear a customer shout and the clerk cry out. You look up to see a robber holding a gun to the clerk’s head. The robber is wearing a pair of panty hose over his head and face. You present your firearm and shout for him to stop. He starts to turn and you tell him not to move. Another customer in the store runs outside and grabs a gun from his truck. Now both of you hold the robber at gunpoint.

The robber inches toward the door. Neither of you shoot. Another customer runs in with a gun in his hand and tells the robber not to move. Now the robber drops his gun and gets down on the floor. You tell the other defenders to raise their firearms and not to shoot.

The news stories are not clear who called 911. Police arrive and have to tase the robber to get cuffs on him. They secure the attacker’s gun. The police also arrest the robber’s wife who was waiting in their car behind the convenience store.

The attacker is charged with armed robbery, aggravated assault, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. The getaway driver was charged with armed robbery. Both are held without bond.

Candy- This robber thought he was in Atlanta. There are lots of us who live far enough out of town that the deputy will need many minutes to respond after we call. These citizens recognize that they have to defend themselves for those minutes until the police arrive.

Aware

Armed

Verbal commands

Not a lethal threat if the attacker was trying to leave.

Not a lethal threat once the attacker was on the ground and disarmed.

Stayed at the scene and gave a statement.

Rob- I’ve read several stories where the defender was justified in shooting but didn’t press the trigger. Did the defender leave the store clerk at risk by not pressing the trigger? Was this defender justified in shooting the attacker without warning?

Candy-

Rob- I had an emotional reaction to this story. Would I shoot if the robber was pointing a gun at a close relative, but I wouldn’t shoot if he were threatening a stranger?

Candy-

Rob- What is best practice, or is there one answer to that?

Candy-

Rob- When do you talk to your students about defending a stranger?

Candy-

Exit-

Rob- That wraps up this episode. Candy, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Candy- Look for me at the Akron, Ohio & Northcoast Chapters of A Girl and a Gun. I also teach at Northpointe Training in Akron, Ohio.

Rob- After you look at Candy’s schedule, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Thank you for listening, and we’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 302 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. What has been keeping you busy?

Tony SimonTony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been putting on more diversity-shoot events in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. I’m getting ready to go to the SHOT show in Las Vegas in a few weeks.

How about you?

Rob- I’m boring. I write, I exercise, and I carry every day.

I was excited when we received a new rating and a new comment on iTunes.

E-ric said, “This is a solid podcast and a great opportunity to learn from real-life self defense stories. As a long-time firearm owner and a new concealed carrier, this podcast has been a great resource.”

Tony- Thank you, E-ric.

Robbie wrote in and said, “Great show and Happy New Year. Regarding the story of the attacker beating on the door and yelling for help, this is one of those situations that worries me. Some of us are geared to respond to calls for help and bad guys use that.

One way to mitigate that vulnerability is to have those security cameras that you can look at before you open that door. If you know it’s a bad guy, you are safer, tactically and legally if you remain behind a locked door.”

Rob- Thank you, Robbie. Those are good points. I like that you found a solution that fits your situation.

Jim B wrote to us and said, “I appreciate the varied perspectives of the guests. These stories help me ready myself for the possibility of an attack. The guest instructors provide clear legal guidance when possible, but they recognize that all states and situations are different. Keep up the good work and carry on!”

Tony- We’d like to hear from all of you, so please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Rob- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn.

Tony- The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place two weeks ago in Detroit, Michigan.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive?You drive for a towing company. The company gets a call about a junk car that someone wants to sell. It is about 9:30 Monday morning, the day after Christmas, when you pull up in your wrecker at the address. You’re about seven-and-a-half miles northeast of downtown Detroit. You get out and look for the vehicle owner. The temperature is in the mid-teens. The winds are light,but anyone outside is dressed in a heavy coat and gloves.

A stranger waves at you and heads your way. You ask if he has a car for sale. The stranger nods and reaches into his pocket. Instead of pulling out a set of keys, the stranger takes a handgun out of his pocket. He points his gun at you and tells you to empty your pockets.

You’re facing a few problems. The first one is the attacker who has a gun pointing at you. The other problems are the concealed pistol license in your wallet and the handgun in your holster. You don’t want to hand another loaded weapon to an armed robber.

The news reports aren’t clear how you reach under your coat and present your firearm. Witnesses report that you shoot between six and eight times. Police reports do not indicate that the attacker was able to fire his gun at all.

You step back. You call 911, and so do the neighbors who hear the gunfire. You stay at the scene, but the news reports are not clear if you got into your truck to stay warm. When they arrive, you speak to the police officers. You show them your commercial driver’s license and your concealed pistol license.

Since you said there were shots fired, the 911 dispatcher also rolled Emergency Medical Services to the scene. EMS transports your attacker to the hospital in critical condition. The attacker dies a few hours later.

News reporters interviewed the neighbors. They recognized the attacker and said he lived in the area. They did not blame the driver for defending himself. To quote one neighbor, “You have to get these crooks off the street one way or another.” The neighbors refuse to let the news reporters publish their names.

Several tow truck companies said they have rules against their drivers going armed. The companies feared being named in a civil lawsuit if the driver had to defend himself. The companies were more worried about the legal bills than about their equipment being stolen or their drivers being injured.

All of the towing companies that were interviewed said that their drivers had a dangerous job since they went to all parts of the city at all hours of the day and night.

The police don’t arrest you and they don’t include your name in their published reports.

The news media does not name you either.

Original News Sources-

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2022/12/26/armed-man-killed-while-trying-to-rob-tow-truck-driver-with-cpl-detroit-police-say/

https://www.wxyz.com/news/tow-truck-driver-reportedly-shoots-kills-suspect-trying-to-rob-him

Tony- Let’s look at the big picture first. Bad weather means the police can’t get anywhere quickly. We saw bad guys take advantage of that at Christmas in Buffalo, New York where there were riots and looting during an ice storm. If the roads ice up, then it might not be safe to travel, and you might be on your own for a long time. Please plan to stay safe.

I like that our defender recognized that he had a dangerous job. Think of him as a rolling pawn shop for automobiles. He goes into bad neighborhoods and hands out cash as he picks up cars. That makes him a potential victim for criminals who want to take the cars, take his truck, and maybe take his life.

Our defender got his carry permit. He carried on the job. He also thought about how he might have to defend himself if he were threatened. He planned the motions, and maybe the diversions, to present his firearm without being shot. He stayed at the scene and he called the police.

Rob- What do you mean that he planned the diversions?

Tony- The bad guy told you to hand it over. Give him your scarf. Give him you gloves. Give him your pocket knife and your watch. Give him your belt and your phone. Give him your address book. Give him the tools in your pants pockets. Give him your wallet. When his hands are full you give him your armed defense. You should not fight fair. Some people carry their firearm in a coat pocket and plan to shoot through their jacket.

Rob- Are there other things you want us to do that were not mentioned in the story?

Tony- The law recognizes that you are human. Say you start shooting and the bad guy drops his gun after your third shot. It takes time for you to recognize that. Maybe you shoot him a few more times before you understand that your attacker is now disarmed. That is when you have to stop shooting. You might move toward your attacker to move his gun away from him. Assume you are on camera and don’t kick the bad guy.

Shout for help. Say, “Someone is shot, call 911.”

Rob- Why is that important?

Tony- That is what good guys do. We use a gun to stop a lethal threat. We don’t want anyone to die. Once the threat is gone, then we want to get help on the way as soon as we can.

We also want people who were ear witnesses and eye witnesses to identify themselves by calling 911.

Rob- When do your students learn about that, and when do they get to practice it?

Tony- We talk about it first in our home defense handgun class.

We practice making that call and talking to the police.Rob- We’ve said a lot about this simple story.

Tony- Let’s go on. Our second story happened before Christmas in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive at night?You are a 23 year old woman. Your car is parked in front of your apartment. It is 9:30 at night when you unlock your car and get in. Three men approach your driver’s side door. One of the men taps on your window with his handgun. He shouts for you to get out of your car.

You pretend not to hear him. You lower the window and turn in your seat. You reach for your handgun and ask your attacker what he said. You present your handgun and shoot the closest attacker several times. He shoots his gun as well. Your attackers run and so do you. You go back to your apartment and call 911 asking for help.

Your neighbors have already called 911 with reports of shots fired. The police find your wounded attacker nearby. EMS transports him to the hospital. The police also find your other two attackers.

Your robbers were 15, 17, and 18 years old. All of them were armed. All of them have robbed other people at gunpoint before. The 17 year old attacker dies in the hospital.

The prosecutor charges the 15 and 18 year old with felony murder for the death of their accomplice.

You are not charged with a crime.

Sources-

https://www.kark.com/crime/investigators-claim-teen-died-in-attempted-little-rock-carjacking-two-other-teens-facing-murder-charge/

https://www.kark.com/crime/lrpd-18-year-old-15-year-old-facing-murder-charges-in-deadly-shooting-of-child/

https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2022/dec/20/little-rock-police-name-victim-in-apparent-robbery-turned-homicide/

Tony- Notice the differences between our first story and this second story. The tow truck driver in Detroit faced one attacker and the driver was on his feet when he was attacked. In this story, our defender faced three attackers and she was sitting down in her car. That makes it hard for her to move. One advantage for this defender was that it was dark so it was harder for the bad guys to see what she was doing as she defended herself. Bad guys usually don’t carry flashlights.

I like that she decided to buy a firearm and learn to defend herself. Arkansas passed constitutional carry about four years ago. She took advantage of that to go armed in public. I wish that she had her carry permit, but maybe she’ll get one now. She kept the bad guy talking while she moved to defend herself. She shot until the threat stopped. She stopped shooting when the bad guys ran away. Rather than chase them, she retreated to the safety of her apartment. She called 911 and gave the police a statement.

Rob- Are there other things you want your students to do?

Tony- Think about what you’d do if you were attacked like this. How can you move in your car? How will you get to your gun? Practice those motions in private with an unloaded gun. Also, how can you distract your attacker so you have more time to get out of your seatbelt and to shoot the bad guy. Do you want to carry a fake wallet on the console of your car? Do you want to throw a purse out the window?

Rob- How does darkness make it easier for this defender?

Tony- They can’t see your hands very clearly. That buys you time. You say, I’m getting out. Give me a second. Don’t shoot me. You’re also reaching inside your coat pocket to grab your firearm. There is a time to move slowly and a time to move quickly.

Rob- That sounds simple when you say it, but it is pretty demanding.

Tony- That is why you want to think about it ahead of time. Imagine it, then practice your best idea and see how it works. Practice your best option a few times so you know what to do.

Rob- That is good advice in any season. Where are we going next.

Tony- Our third story happened in Elkrun Township, Ohio.

Rob- First this message from Amanda Suffecool.

Firearms instructor Amanda SuffecoolRob- Third story- Are you armed as you drive home with your two year old child?It is just before midnight Saturday when you’re driving your pickup truck home with your two-year-old in the seat next to you. You’re almost home when you see a woman walking on the side of the road. It is quite dark and cold on this rural road. You stop to see if there is a problem.

You don’t know her, but the woman on the side of the road says she lives nearby. You turn into your driveway and drop off your child with your wife. You get back into the truck to deliver the pedestrian to her home. You’ve just turned onto the road when someone comes up behind you and crashes into the back of your truck. You see a jeep behind you. The driver of the jeep has a handgun out the window with the gun pointed at you. The vehicles slide to a stop off the road in a wooded portion of this rural area.

The news reports don’t mention where you kept your gun, but you are armed. You grab your firearm and step out of your truck. So does the driver of the jeep. He shoots at you. You shoot back several times until your attacker stops shooting and falls down.

You stop shooting and back away. You call 911 and ask for help. The news reports neither mention when you put your gun away, nor do they mention where you put it. Sheriff’s deputies and emergency medical services arrive. The attacker is declared dead at the scene. You give a brief statement to the police.

The 49-year-old woman on the side of the road had been a passenger in the jeep. The 69-year-old male driver of the jeep attacked her. She got out of the jeep and escaped by walking toward her home along the side of the road before you picked her up. The Sheriff said this incident started as a domestic assault and that you acted in self-defense. Sheriff Brian McLaughlin said, “I don’t foresee any charges being filed.”

You’re upset but not injured. You’re glad you dropped off your child before you were attacked. You say a prayer for everyone involved.

Original News Sources:

UPDATE: Deputies believe shooting in Elkrun Township was self-defense, no charges expected
Sheriff describes shooting as self-defense
Shooting described as self-defense
One dead after shooting in Columbiana County

Tony- I like that our good guy was armed. I even like that he picked up a stranger who was at the side of a rural road late at night in the wintertime. I like that he dropped off his child.

Our good guy recognized when he faced a lethal threat. He defended himself, then he called for help and gave a statement to the police.

I see one thing that the newspaper doesn’t talk about, I bet the passenger gave a statement to law enforcement that condemned the attacker.

Rob- Is there more that we can do in a situation like this one?

Tony- If you pick up the victim of a crime then call 911 as soon as possible. That gets you entered into the report as a witness or a bystander rather than as a perpetrator. Maybe you’ll be lucky and a sheriff’s deputy is patrolling in your area.

Rob- A year ago you didn’t have to talk to your students about concealed carry because New Jersey residents couldn’t get their permits. Now they can get their permits and you have to change your classes. Are students coming back for more training?

Tony- Oh Yes. The ranges are full.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Tony- Our fourth story took place in Tucson, Arizona.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed when you go to the bar with a friend?You are going out to drink with a friend. You pick them up and drive to a sports bar on a Wednesday night. You won’t be drinking since you are the designated driver and the designated defender.

It is 6pm and you and your friends were not at the bar very long when a stranger comes in carrying a rifle. He walks into the middle of the bar, shouts, and then shoots the rifle up into the ceiling. You present your handgun and move toward the shooter. So does your friend. Both of you are yelling for the attacker to put down his gun.

The attacker lowers the barrel and turns the muzzle toward you. You shoot him three times in the chest. Now the attacker drops his gun and falls to the floor. You stop shooting. Lots of people call 911.

There are lots of things we don’t know. The news reports don’t mention if you called the police or if your friend called. We don’t know who grabbed the attacker’s rifle. We don’t know when you reholstered your gun. You stay at the scene and give a statement to the police. Emergency Medical Services take your attacker to the hospital in critical condition.

There are lots of witnesses. You have to take a breathalyzer test to prove you were not drinking while carrying concealed at an establishment that serves alcohol.

The media called it a bar fight, but it turns out that the attacker was thrown out of the bar an hour earlier for making racist comments and saying he wanted to blow up the building. Neither the police nor the press publish your name since your are not charged with a crime. The owner of the bar says you stopped mass murder and saved a lot of lives.

Original News Sources-

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/12/bar-shooting-was-an-active-shooter-situation-according-to-owner/#axzz7pBbPvpQk
https://www.kvoa.com/news/local/man-injured-in-tucson-bar-shooting-sunday/article_9a7b1e34-7fa6-11ed-9f17-27110dbd20b7.html
https://www.kvoa.com/video/more-developments-about-shooting-at-famous-sams-bar-in-tucson/video_28d58ef6-0809-5c92-975f-de96587f23e1.html

Tony- I like that our group had a designated driver and a designated defender. They recognized that this was not cowboy night at the bar and that shouting orders and shooting a gun into the ceiling was a threat. They tried to diffuse the situation with verbal commands. They asked the attacker to put his gun down. They recognized an immediate threat when the attacker moved to point his gun at them. They stopped firing when the threat stopped. They stayed at the scene.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Tony- There were a lot of witnesses. That is where your habits as you handle a firearm will be noticed. You are very excited, so even as the attacker is down you want to keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction with the muzzle down.

You might want to move the attacker’s weapon away from him. Ask someone to stand on it so that a stranger won’t pick it up. Once the attacker’s firearm is secured, then there probably isn’t any reason to have your firearm out. Now would be a good time to carefully reholster it.

Ask if anyone else is hurt. Ask someone to call 911. Ask that person to stay with you and to stay on the line with the dispatcher. You could ask if anyone has trauma care training. That is what good guys do, and it doesn’t hurt if the witnesses see you acting like a concerned good guy.

Also, this story started hours earlier when the attacker, I presume a drunk attacker, started issuing threats and was thrown out of the bar. That means this is a complex situation. It will take the deputies at the scene a while to figure out what happened and to collect the relevant evidence and testimony.

Relax. Order a soft drink and a snack because you are going to be there for a while as officers sort things out. Stay polite. Make a brief statement. Be polite, and then call your lawyer so he can fill out the full police report.

Rob- Tell me more about making a full written statement to the police.

Tony- You don’t know what happened. If I asked you, you wouldn’t give me the relevant events in order. Also, there are particular points you have to present in order to make a claim of self-defense. You used lethal force because you or other innocent parties were in extreme danger. It was safer for you to use lethal force than to do something else.

The way your statement is presented is generally the same, but the details are different in each state. Your lawyer puts the story together so you get it right the first time. Your lawyer can also look at the security video before he makes his report. That helps you make statements that fit with other evidence.

Here is an example. You identified yourself as the designated driver when the waitress took your order. The bar gave you complimentary soft drinks and coffee. It shows that right on your bar bill next to the four orders of nachos and fries.

Rob- When do your students learn what to do after they touched their gun in public?

Tony- Since I live in New Jersey, elections have consequences. Say little. Call the police. Then call your lawyer. We talk about that in my Home defender handgun class.

I’ve been encouraging my students to shoot in competitions at their local range. Some of those events are only $10 and you can shoot 22s.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com

I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train, and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast.

Rob- I hope you look at Tony podcasts and at his classes. Then, please leave Tony a message on the self defense gun stories episode webpage.

Tony- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Thank you for joining us and again, and we’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction-Rob- Welcome to episode 301 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. What has been keeping you so busy?

Heather ReevesHeather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been enjoying family time over the holidays, working on a few home projects that I’ve been putting off, and taking advantage of down time from teaching high schoolers.

How about you?

Rob- I’ve been traveling. I visited with family in anti-gun, New York. Traveling through this Christmas storm was hard.

We received five new ratings and two new comments on iTunes (321, 177).

Disappointed in Colorado said I appreciate the very important information shared in these podcasts. I realize how little I understand of the law. I’m definitely going to keep listening. Thanks, and merry Christmas.

Heather- Well, Disappointed, thank you for leaving us a note, and Merry Christmas to you too.

One listener only identified himself as a string of numbers. He said, Love the variety of real stories and situations. You have a consistent format, but great guests that add flavor.

Rob- Thanks to that numbered but un-named listener. Our instructors bring us new ideas every week.

Michelle sent us a message that she and her sisters were exploring a tunnel near their town. They heard a gunshot from down the tunnel and her sisters saw the muzzle flash. They recognized the gunshot and ran. They said they reacted quickly because they listened to so many of these podcasts.

Heather- They did their homework so they knew what to do.

Now, as a school teacher and a firearms instructor I’m suggesting you do your homework and go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and tell new gun owners why you listen.

Rob- You teach Chemistry?

Heather- That is one of the classes I teach.

Rob- and you’re giving out homework over the Christmas break.

Heather- Of course I am, though it is for extra credit and pass/fail.

Rob- Hmm. I think self-defense comes in shades of gray rather than pass-fail.

Heather- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Pahrump, Nevada.

Rob- First story- Do you have a handgun nearby when you’re asleep in bed?You were asleep in your bed a little after 9:30 at night. You wake up when you hear an unfamiliar noise coming from your kitchen. You roll out of bed and grab your handgun. You have your gun in your hands when an intruder kicks down your bedroom door. You shoot the intruder twice in the upper-center chest as he comes through the fatal funnel of the doorway. The intruder immediately falls to the floor. You stop shooting. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help.

News reports don’t mention when you put away your firearm. You meet law enforcement when they arrive. You also give the officers a brief statement.

Emergency Medical Services treat the attacker. He is first driven to a local transport pad and then flown by a medical helicopter to the nearest level 1 trauma center in Las Vegas. The attacker is immediately placed in critical care.

Police identify the firearm that the armed attacker was carrying. It is a shotgun that was stolen the night before during a home invasion-burglary at another address.

Later, the intruder was identified as Shawn Richards. Richards has a history of criminal convictions. If he survives, he will be charged with home invasion, with grand larceny of a firearm, burglary, being a prohibited person in possession of a firearm, and with probation violations.

According to the Nye county sheriff’s office, the homeowner will not face any charges.

Original News Sources-

Armed homeowner opens fire on shotgun-toting crook who invaded residence. Seriously wounded suspect was wanted on probation violation.
NSCO: Intruder shot in Pahrump home invasion was ‘wanted man’
Sheriff’s Office: Alleged home invader shot by resident in Pahrump
Homeowner shoots, seriously injures intruder in Pahrump, police say
Man shot while committing home invasion in Pahrump, Nye County police say

Heather- I love that this homeowner had a firearm to defend themselves. That saved their life when they faced a serious bad guy. I also like it that they kept their doors and windows locked. It was critically important that they stayed in their room and made the armed attacker break down their door and come to them.

They stayed at the scene and gave a report to the responding officers.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Heather- Nevada is a castle doctrine state. That means the local prosecutor has the legal burden to prove that the defender did not face an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat of death or great bodily injury in his home. Nevada is also a stand-your-ground state, meaning the defender did not have a legal duty to retreat. Both laws helped this defender with his legal case.

Rob- I have a legal case if I defend myself in my home?

Heather- You pointed a lethal weapon at someone. You used lethal force and put someone in the hospital. You have to show that those actions were legally justified. You have to show that something even worse would have happened if you didn’t use that degree of force, and potentially took another person’s life.

Rob- That isn’t what we learn on police drama’s on the TV, or from the newspaper reports. When do your students learn about that?

Heather- During our Concealed Handgun class laws and legal ramifications are covered and then during our Think Fast class students have to put those skills into action and work on issuing verbal commands and further understanding of the potential ramifications if you cannot articulate your reasonings and rationales for what you did and how you did it. (HEATHER, THAT IS ONE SENTENCE. SAY IT WITH FOUR SIMPLER SENTENCES.) FIRST, OUR STUDENTS LEARN..

Rob- How is it possible that a person armed with a handgun stopped someone who was armed with a semi-automatic shotgun?

Heather- Beginners often ask questions like that. The answer is time. The good guy needed less time than the attacker needed. The defender knew his attacker would have to come through his bedroom door. The defender can hide behind the bed and have his gun already pointed at the doorway. He doesn’t need to spend time aiming later. All he has to do is press the trigger and the bad guy gets shot several times.

In contrast, the bad guy doesn’t know where the good guy is. The bad guy has to break down the door, then move into the room and search, identify, and then move his gun to aim at the defender. That takes time. The defender was quicker.

Rob- The defender also knew what to do so he put himself in a defensive situation where he would win. When do your students learn about defending their family in their home?

Heather- Our home defense course covers how to use your dwelling to your advantage in attacks like this.

Rob- Is there more you want to cover from this story?

Heather- I’m good. Our second story happened in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- Second Story- Are you carrying concealed in public after dark?You and your girlfriend are at a shopping mall. Your car is parked in front of Buffalo Wild Wings, but the news stories don’t say if you ate there. It is 8:30, so well after dark. You and your girlfriend walk to your car and get inside. Three strange men pull open the doors of your car and try to get inside as well. The news reports aren’t clear, but it sounds like they tried to get into the back seat of your car while you and your girlfriend were in the front.

You’re legally carrying concealed. You present your firearm and shoot two of the three carjackers. They run. You stay at the scene and call 911. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. You show them your Illinois Firearms Owners Identification card and your carry permit.

Police arrest one of the wounded robbers. He is charged with battery, and also has outstanding warrants. There is a person with the same name who was involved in prior robberies.

You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- That is scary. I’m glad our defender was armed.. And he did it legally in Illinois which is important too. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat of death or great bodily injury. He defended himself and his girlfriend. He stopped shooting when the threat ended. He didn’t chase the bad guys across the parking lot. He stayed at the scene and called for help. He also gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

Rob- Defending yourself in your car isn’t easy.

Heather- It isn’t, and we don’t know if he did. He might have opened his car door and then shot into the back seat while he was standing outside. We don’t know those details.

Rob- Since you brought up that scenario, would that have been legal if I had made my escape and was safely outside my car and then used lethal force to shoot at people who were inside my car?

Heather- Maybe. The bad guys may have said they were armed. You were justified to use lethal force until you and your girlfriend had escaped to safety. That situation could be hundreds of feet away from where you started.

Rob- When do you talk about issues like that, and do your students ever get to shoot from a seated position?

Heather- We shoot from the seated position in our defensive night series that we put on each summer, and incorporate seated positions into Think Fast and our advanced pistol courses. It always creates some great conversation as to how to avoid muzzling yourself or the people you’re with and makes people think about how awkward it is to try and draw and then get to a position you can shoot while accounting for each round that comes out of your gun.

Our third story happened in Rome, Georgia.

Rob- First this message from Amanda Suffecool.

Amanda SuffecoolRob- Third story- Are you armed at home during the early evening?You and your wife are separating. She is moving out of your home. Her father is helping her. So far you’ve agreed on what is hers and what is yours. It is Friday right after work and you are carrying your wife’s possessions out of your home and handing them to her and her dad.

It appears from police reports that the father-in-law started issuing verbal insults and then verbally threatening you. You retreat to your house. You tell him to stay outside. You tell him you’re armed. Several times you tell him to leave your home. Your father-in-law reaches to grab you and you shoot him. Now he stops moving toward you so you stop shooting. You back up and call 911. Emergency Medical Services pronounce your attacker dead at the scene.

You give a statement to the police. You also give them your security video that shows your attacker entering your home and you shouting for him to leave. You are arrested. It takes 10 weeks for the police to say you won’t be charged.

Quote, “[the] Rome Police Department detectives in this case had probable cause to arrest this defendant on Oct. 7, 2022. They continued to work the case. Evidence developed that pointed to Mr. Benjamin Cox having a valid justification defense under several statutes, including self-defense, defense of habitation and the stand your ground statute. The pending charges have been dismissed against Mr. Cox.” Close quote.

Heather- I’m glad our defender was armed. I’m also glad he retreated as far into his home as he could. He defended himself when he faced an immediate threat from a larger man. He stopped shooting when that threat ended. He also had video that showed he retreated and that the attacker advanced and created the confrontation.

Rob- I don’t usually select stories like this one because the lessons can be complicated. What would you like your students to do in a similar situation?

Heather- I suggest you rent an off duty police officer to supervise the exchange. If you don’t have that, then rent the men from the local Judo and self-defense gym. That is the same sort of advice we give for eviction, for domestic abuse situations, and for other disputes.

Rob- That could have saved someone’s life and saved the defender from having to shoot someone.

Heather- I’m surprised that the defender’s lawyer didn’t mention it, but we don’t know that the defender had a lawyer before the separation.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?

Heather- Our fourth story took place in Ludlow, Kentucky.

Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a firearm near your bed?You live in a bedroom community across the river from Cincinnati, Ohio. It is a little before 5 on a Monday morning when you’re woken up by the sound of breaking glass out on the street and the sound of car alarms going off. The news reports are not clear if you grabbed your gun when you heard the car alarms or when someone started beating on your front door and shouting for help. Also, the news doesn’t say if you only heard the attacker pick up your front porch furniture and smash your front door, or if you also saw him do it.

You have your gun in your hands when you open the front door and tell the intruder to move away and stop smashing your house. You say you’re armed. The intruder who was asking for help a few seconds ago says quote, “I’m not scared of you.” close quote.

The intruder steps forward and tries to grab you. You shoot him. Now the attacker stops and runs. News reports don’t say if you stepped back into your home or if you stayed on the porch as you called 911 for help.

You tell the dispatcher, “I just shot somebody.” The dispatcher says that police are already on their way. The female dispatcher also tells you to put your gun down and have your hands out of your pockets when the officers arrive.

You stay at the scene and talk to the policemen. You also give them security video and audio from your front porch cameras.

The police find the wounded attacker in front of your home. Emergency Medical Services transport the attacker to the hospital with a gunshot wound to his neck.

The County Commonwealth’s Attorney said, “When someone that we can only describe as a criminal keeps coming towards you, I think it was completely reasonable for the homeowner to fire in self-defense. Well, we know he [the attacker] broke into a number of different vehicles, caused quite a bit of damage. He was trying to break into at least one residence.”

You are not named in the police reports or by the press since you are not being charged with a crime.

Sources-

https://www.fox19.com/2022/12/15/ludlow-homeowner-shot-alleged-thief-who-charged-him-self-defense-prosecutor-says/
https://local12.com/news/local/police-investigate-early-morning-shooting-in-ludlow-cincinnati-ohio-kentucky-elm-street-captain-burglary-breakins-kenton-county
https://www.ammoland.com/2022/12/armed-citizen-shoots-armed-fugitive-during-home-invasion/

Heather- I like that our defender was armed. I couldn’t tell if the defender was on the phone before he had to confront his attacker. In either case, I like that they were on the phone with the police so quickly. It looks like the defender had shatter resistant storm windows at the front of his house. I love that since it bought the defender more time. The homeowner also recognized a threat when the attacker moved toward him and tried to grab him. He stopped shooting when the attacker stopped moving forward so the defender then had time and distance to escape. The defender stayed at the scene and called for help. He also had a video that showed the attacker beating on his home and acting erratically.

Rob- Normal people don’t shout for help and then threaten us the next minute.

Heather- We can argue that our defender would have been safer if he’d stayed inside. Maybe the police would have arrived in time, and maybe not. It would have been an easier legal defense, and it could have been an easier physical defense as well.

Rob- That is the graduate class in self-defense.

Heather- It is, but there are a lot of actions that work. We’re talking about defense that works better and more often.

Our first story had an experienced criminal with a shotgun. The best defense was for the defender to stay inside his bedroom. This attacker was not as great a threat so this less-than-perfect defense also worked.

Rob- I’m seeing that these honest citizens had to use their firearms because they could not let the attacker push them onto their backs and then get their gun. That armed defense takes time and distance. When do you talk to your students about that?

Heather- We encourage our students to take 6 months of a grappling martial art and to be physically fit so that they can act in whatever manner they need to when the time comes. There’s no one size fits all ideal fight for your life.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Heather, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Heather- Find me at my gun store website, tacticaladvantageguns.net. I list more classes at agirlandagun.org under the Portage, Michigan chapter.

Rob- After you look at Heather classes, then please leave her a message on the podcast episode webpage.

If you have a favorite co-host, then I’ve made a listing so you can find all of their episodes. You can also do that on the podcast player in your cell phone, but you have to select the episodes by hand.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 300 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. What has been keeping you busy?

David ColeDave- Hi, Rob. I’ve been out hunting and doing a little dry fire; my pistol qual for work is coming up and USPSA season will be here before you know it.

Episode 300.

How about you?

Rob- I have a small day job consulting again. I’m writing and carrying concealed every day.

We received 2 new ratings and a comment on iTunes (is 316,175). A listener named Rob d said, Listening to the show gives a lot of great insight on how different real world scenarios actually go down, and the right ways and wrong ways to handle them.

Dave- Thank you Rob d. I was hoping you’d hear that.

Jeff W left us a comment on Facebook. He said, “Love the podcast. The stories you cover make you think about how well you’re prepared for a violent encounter. Especially the ones that happen inside the home when your guard is usually down.

Rob- Thank you, Jeff.

Dwayne sent us the story from Warner Robins, Georgia. Thank you, Dwayne.

On the previous episode with Instructor Ben Branam, Kevin said he listens to Ben’s podcast, Modern Self Protection, and he likes that show too.

Kevin, so do I.

Dave- There are a lot of pieces that come together for this podcast. We schedule the instructors, research and write the stories, record and edit the audio, then we publish and promote each episode. We’ve done that for 7 years. Now we’re looking for volunteers who will help. We’ve had a few people respond, but there is a lot to do. Please leave a message on our episode webpage.

Rob- Someone got mad at me on Facebook that I didn’t get back to them soon enough when I was on vacation outside the US. That is going to happen. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Dave- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm about five thousand times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Warner Robins, Georgia.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at work?You’re working behind the counter of a fast food store. It is almost 10 pm on a Monday night when a man walks in. He is wearing a mask and a hoodie. He is also carrying a gun in his hands. The robber tells you to give him the money from the cash register. You don’t move fast enough for him so he jumps over the counter and pushes you out of the way. He hits you with his handgun and you put up your arms to protect yourself from the blows.

You have a gun of your own. You’re carrying concealed tonight. You’re down on one knee when you draw your firearm and shoot upward at your attacker. You shoot him until he stops hitting you. Your attacker turns away and you stop shooting. Your attacker runs from the store.

You stay inside. Your co-workers saw the attack. It isn’t clear from the news stories if they called 911 or if you did. You put your gun back in its holster.

You give a statement to the police when they arrive. So do your co-workers. You have some bad bruises and bumps, but you have ice at the store. You say you don’t need to see Emergency Medical Services. Police notice three shell casings on the floor. They match the size and manufacturer of the cartridges you carry.

Police find your attacker down the street. EMS takes your attacker to a nearby hospital. He is treated for two gunshot wounds. He died at the hospital.

You are not charged with a crime.

Dave- I like that our defender owned a gun and he carried concealed at work. He recognized a threat. He tried to de-escalate the situation. He backed away. He defended himself when he was attacked. He stopped shooting when the attacker stopped hitting him and turned away. Our defender stayed at the scene and didn’t chase his attacker. Someone called 911 and asked for help, and our defender gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

Rob- That is a lot of things to do correctly in a few seconds. Is there anything else you’d like us to do?

Dave- There are some things that were not mentioned in the news report. Although Georgia is a permitless carry state, it is still a good idea to have a carry permit. That immediately sets you apart from the other calls the officer had today. This probably isn’t a fight between two gang members because you have your permit which shows that you have a clean criminal record.

You want to talk through what to do with your co-workers ahead of time so all of you have a plan. You want to make sure that they are out of danger if a robber starts shooting. You want to know that someone will call 911 and what to say first.

When the shooting stops, you want to lock the front door and then take a breath.

Before you check on your co-workers, you probably want to put your gun away so you are not pointing a gun at them. Definitely make sure that you do not have your gun out when the police arrive. Were there any other customers in the store? You want a brief inventory of any injuries so you know what to ask for when you call 911. You also want to get security video ready for the police.

Go to the hospital.

Rob- Why is security video worthwhile?

Dave- The attacker’s family can tell a story and sue your employer and sue you. The video documents that you were the innocent party that didn’t start the confrontation. You moved away from the attacker. He closed the distance and threatened you. He attacked you. You were in an inferior position below him and he continued the attack. You defended yourself. You stopped shooting when the threat ended. After the attack, you did not close the distance with the attacker, but let him leave.

Rob- Would you explain for me. There is a moment when the attacker stops hitting you. There is an instant in time when the threat is over. That isn’t necessarily the same moment. When should we stop shooting?

Dave- Your attacker still has a gun in his hand and he is standing over you having threatened and hit you.

Rob- Do you get a chance to talk about those important details in your average concealed carry class?

Dave- This type of situation would be part of the discussion of concepts of self defense such as ability/opportunity/jeopardy.

Our second story happened in Liberty Township, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Second Story- Do you have a firearm nearby when you sleep?And here.

You are a 72 year old man. You are asleep in your bed Saturday morning. Well, you were asleep until you heard a strange sound at about 3 am. You get up and grab your firearm. Someone is breaking the door of your mobile home. You get your phone and call 911 to ask for help.

The intruder breaks through your door. You put the phone down as the intruder attacks you. You push him away but he hits you again. You present your firearm and shoot the attacker. He stops hitting you and you back away.

You pick up the phone and call 911 again. You say you had to shoot your attacker. You put your gun away when the police arrive. You tell them what happened. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene from a single bullet wound. He was 22 years old. EMS also takes you to the hospital to treat your injuries.

You are not charged with a crime.

Dave- I love that this man’s doors and windows were locked. I like that he had a gun and that he went to get it before he moved into the house. He called 911 as soon as he could so the police could start moving to help him. He defended himself when he was attacked. He stopped shooting when the attacker wasn’t a threat. He called for help and updated 911 about what he needed. Since shots were fired they needed EMS.

He put his gun down before the police arrived. He gave them a brief statement. He took their advice when the medical technicians said that he needed treatment and should go to the hospital.

Those are a lot of decisions to make when you were asleep a few seconds ago.

Rob- Tell me again about a self defense plan.

Dave- It’s always going to be difficult to make good decisions in a critical situation. It’s even more difficult when we just woke up. In order to make good choices in bad circumstances, it is important to “pre-game” some of those choices in advance, and have a plan. Although we can’t foresee every eventuality, we can do some advance planning. Is there a better side of the bed to get out of? Is there a better way to open the drawer or gun safe and get your gun? What is the best way to get the lights on and the door locked? The news reports don’t mention turning on the lights, but we want to do that. Where is your phone?

This man was hospitalized even though he was armed. If we asked him today, I bet he would recommend grabbing his gun and staying behind his locked door while he waited for the police. I know it makes us mad that someone broke into our house, but becoming involved in a shooting creates a whole new set of problems.

Rob- So 3AM is the wrong time to start listening to self-defense gun stories? What else do you see here?

Dave- There is never a wrong time to start listening and making plans for your defense! We’re always there for you if you can’t sleep.

We talk about plans in our home defense classes. The best choices for a 72 year old who lives alone won’t be the same for a couple in their late 20s who have two kids to protect.

Rob- Is there more or should we move on?

Dave- Our third story happened in Elk Creek, Virginia.

Rob- First this message from Amanda Suffecool.

Amanda Suffecoolhttp://eyeonthetargetradio.com/

Rob- Third story- Do you have a gun nearby at night?It is Tuesday night and you are asleep in bed. You hear glass breaking and you hear pieces of glass hit your bedroom floor. Someone is breaking into your home. You roll out of bed and run to get your gun. The intruder grabs you from behind. You grab your gun and try to turn around to face your attacker. Both of you fall to the floor.

You shoot your attacker twice. Now you’re able to get away from your attacker. You grab your phone and call 911.

You put your gun away before the police arrive. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene. Police say it appears you acted within the law. You are not charged.

Dave- Again, I like that the defender had his doors and windows locked. That bought him a few seconds to hear glass breaking, to wake up, and to move toward his firearm. I checked Google Maps and this was a rural area. Although it is common for people in such areas to leave doors unlocked, it is never a good idea. While many rural areas do have lower crime rates, consider that they often also have fewer police and those police may be farther away. Locked doors buy you time!

I like that the defender didn’t give up, but kept fighting to stop the threat. He stopped shooting when the attacker let go of him, and then he called 911.

Rob- In the US, we have many new gun owners in the last few years. Some of them are still figuring out how to have a gun for protection in their home. What should they consider?

Dave- The gun that protects your family is “in use”, which can be an important legal consideration in some localities. That means it isn’t put away in a gun safe unloaded. It is in use the same way a fire extinguisher is “in use” as it hangs on the wall ready for you to grab it. We have ways to keep a firearm accessible and yet keep it out of the hands of children and intruders.

A gun that is kept in your gun safe and with ammunition stored separately isn’t quickly accessible to be used. A loaded gun that is kept in your nightstand isn’t safe.

For most people, a small bedside safe or lock box will work well. I have one that unlocks with a programmed sequence of push buttons. It doesn’t rely on biometrics and is very quick and easy to use.

Rob- You have relatives who have guns. When did you talk to them about safe storage?

Dave- That conversation was an integral part of the gun shopping process.

I’d also like to mention that this is the second example we’ve looked at today which included a physical assault. Listeners might want to consider some empty hand self defense training, as well as a close quarters pistol class if they can.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Dave- Our fourth story took place in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you go out at night?You step out of the downtown building after three in the morning. You’re about to cross the street when you hear gunshots and see someone shooting at you from a car on the street. You are carrying concealed this morning. You present your firearm and shoot back. The car drives away. You see someone climb out of your car across the street and run. He doesn’t shoot at you and you don’t shoot him.

News reports are not clear if you called 911 from the street or if you went back inside your hotel first. You give a statement to the police when they arrive. You show them your Illinois firearms owners ID card. You show them your carry permit. You give the police a brief statement.

Police take your description of the vehicle your attackers were driving. A man is dropped off at a hospital by a car matching that description. Another man walks into another hospital a few minutes later. Both have gunshot wounds. Both are attested. Police are looking for the damaged vehicle and its driver.

You are not charged.

Dave- Wow. Welcome to Chicago. I’m glad our defender was armed. I’m very glad that he was carrying legally. He went through all the hoops to become a concealed carrier in Illinois and then he carried. He recognized that people were shooting at him. He reacted to stop the threat. He stopped shooting and stayed at the scene when he called 911 for help. As a bonus, the police made two arrests. They probably have security video from the stores nearby. Well done.

Rob- Is there more you’d like us to do?

Dave- The neighbors said that shootings are becoming more common downtown. Situational awareness is critical. Take a look outside your door before you step out onto the street. Don’t have your head down in your phone.

I’d also like our listeners to consider that although this situation turned out well, might there have been better options than opening fire on a city street? Maybe there weren’t, but was there cover available? Could our defender have escaped into a building? We don’t know, but it is worth considering.

Since Chicago is so dangerous, that means your chance of needing to defend yourself is higher. Look for self-defense insurance so you can afford a lawyer to represent you.

Rob- When would your students learn about that?

Dave- Concealed carry class.

Rob- I noticed that this defender had to engage multiple bad guys in the car, and then he didn’t shoot at the guy who got out of his car and ran. Talk about that?

Dave- I remember doing a scan. If their hands are empty then they are not an immediate threat.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Dave, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Become an instructor! Look for my written articles at deltabravocharlie.com

Rob- After you look at Dave articles and his videos, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage.

Dave- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onAmazon, Google Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. Merry Christmas, and we’ll be back in a few weeks with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Introduction- Rob- Welcome to episode 299 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Ben Branam. What have you been doing?

Firearms Instructor Ben BranamBen- Hi, Rob. I’ve been working on new carry guns. It takes me a lot to change. I’ve been carrying my current set up for 7 years or so and finally decided on something new. So now I’m breaking them in, testing them, grouping them, and waiting on an optic I can’t get yet.

How about you?

Rob- I traveled overseas. It was good to get back home and carry again. As I was traveling, I met an Uber driver in Houston. A few episodes ago, we had a story where an Uber driver was being attacked and he needed to call 911. The driver I met showed me where his Uber navigation software has a 911-contact button that is always on the screen. It also shows the dispatcher where the driver is located. What a good idea.

We received three new ratings this week as well as some new comments (is 314,174). Robbie sent us an article where an armed bystander in Texas first stopped a violent robbery and then was arrested. The issue is if the physical assault by the male robber was a lethal and immediate threat to the two female store employees. Thank you Robbie.

Ben- We have constitutional carry in Texas, but you want to know what you can and cannot do to stay within the law.

Rob- There are a lot of pieces that come together for this podcast. We schedule the instructors, research and write the stories, record and edit the audio, then we publish and promote each episode. I’ve done that for 7 years. I’m looking for volunteers who will help. We’ve had a few people respond, but there is a lot to do. Please leave a message on our episode webpage.

A listener left us a message on iTunes. As a level 1 Trauma ICU registered nurse for 7 years, the mainstream media has no idea how often crime and self-defense happens. I’ve listened to your show for 3 years and been carrying concealed for 10. The podcast is helpful for both new and experienced firearms owners. I’ve introduced 10 people to the show. Thanks Rob and Crew.

Ben- That means we have at least a dozen listeners. We’re growing! Glad to hear we are helping spread the word about good people protecting themselves.

Rob- Thank you to the trauma RN for leaving us a message and for telling your friends about our show. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Ben- As that listener said, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive after midnight?You are a 23 year old woman and the news articles are not clear about whether you are getting into your car or getting out of it. It is after midnight when a car pulls up next to your parked car. Four men get out. One of them points a gun at you. The armed man tries to get into your car. You present your legally carried firearm and shoot your attacker. You get out of your car and run down the street. One of the armed robbers shoot at you and wounds your arm. You call 911 and ask for help.

You put your gun away before the police arrive. You show them your carry permit and give them a statement. You are taken to the hospital to treat your arm. EMTs also take one of your attackers to the hospital with a gunshot wound to the head.

You are not charged with a crime.

Ben- She got the basics exactly right. When it was time to act, she acted, when it was time to fight she fought, and when it was time to retreat, she retreated.

Rob- When are we done shooting and it is time to run?

Ben- Be done shooting when the threat is gone. Retreat is actually one of your best courses of action if you can do it safely. Don’t run into the open. Use local cover. Put as much stuff between you and your attackers as you are getting away.

Rob- Where would I learn about being attacked by multiple attackers while I’m sitting in my car?

Ben- Firearms courses. Take some. Sometimes your instincts are good, and sometimes they get you hurt of killed. But a firearms class gives you a chance to practice and force on force classes let you see what you will really do and if your reaction will work.

Rob- How do I practice that?

Ben- Outside a class, you should work dry from your holster, unloaded gun, from any and every position. I don’t let people take a fighting stance in my class before they draw the gun. I think that makes bad habits.

Rob- You’ve been in more fights than I have. Do we run because we’re done defending ourselves, or because we’re overwhelmed and we don’t know what to do next?

Ben- Well, Yes. Taking classes gives you some answers to tap into when you don’t have time to think. Practice pre-loads some solutions into your reactions.Rob- Is there anything else you want to cover in this story?

Ben- I’ll save it for our second story that also happened in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive at dawn?It is just before 6 in the morning when you get into your car. A car pulls up beside you and three young men get out. One of them points a gun at you and orders you to hand over all your belongings. You own a gun. You have your Illinois Concealed carry permit in your wallet. You’re carrying concealed today. You get out of your car and present your firearm. You shoot your attackers. The four men jump back into their car and drive away. You stay at the scene and call 911 for help. You put your gun away and give a statement to the police when they arrive.

Police find your attackers down the street. The driver is wounded with a head wound. Another attacker has a shoulder wound. The attacker in the back seat broke his leg when the car crashed. All four are taken to the hospital.

These teenage robbers are driving a stolen car and are part of a group that robbed 40 people over the weekend. You are not charged with a crime.

Ben- I like that our defender used violence of action. When he acted by drawing his firearm and shooting it was so scary to the four bad buys they left.

He kept shooting as long as there was an immediate, lethal and unavoidable threat. He stopped..

Rob- When would you learn to defend yourself like that? You barely cover presentation in your concealed carry class. You certainly don’t have time to run many drills with those advanced skills like engaging multiple attackers and shooting on the move.

Ben- Go to a class! I feal like I repeat that a lot on this podcast.

Rob- Walk me through the sorts of classes I might want to take after I have my carry permit?

Ben- I’d love for you to take two or three 1 or 2 day basic courses from different instructors and then take an advanced course from the one you like the best.

Rob- Different instructors?

Ben- Every instructor is different in how they teach, act, and who they are. Plus most of us have different fighting styles. Some better than the other, but the instructor that you click with will be the bast one for you. And after you have 2 different instructors it will be easy to see who is actually a good instructor and knows what they are talking about and who is full of BS.

Rob- How do I tell the instructor that is best for me, or is it simply a matter of salesmanship?

Ben- Sometimes it’s theory vs practice and sometimes what a 22 year old Navy SEAL does won’t work for an 82 year old lawyer, which happened to be the oldest person I’ve had at one of my classes.Our third story happened in Atlanta, Georgia.

Rob- First this message from the crime prevention research center.Cprchttps://crimeresearch.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work?You manage a food pantry. It is around 5pm when one of your volunteers runs up to you and asks if you have your gun. They say a young man with a gun just ran through the store and into the backlot. You run to the backlot and see a stranger with a gun in his back pocket. You tell him to stop and to get on the ground. He reaches for his gun.

“Don’t make me kill you,” you say. He continues to slowly reach for his gun. You are about to shoot the armed stranger when a police officer runs up next to you and presents his taser. It isn’t clear from the news articles if the officer had to tase the armed intruder. You put your gun away.

Police arrest the armed man as a fugitive in a nearby crash of a stolen car. You are not charged with a crime.

Tag- No shots fired.

Ben- I love that this store manager respected the lives of his staff and wanted to protect them. Gun owner. Carried at work. Relationship with his staff so they came to him.

Rob- His employees did more than hide and pull out their cell phones.

Ben- One hard part of self defense is knowing when a lethal threat is immediate.

Rob- Explain that for our listeners.

Ben- That it is going to happen right now. The hard part is trying to get people to understand what right now is. Times are different when we add reaction time to things. Being trained, I know that it would take me about 1.5 seconds to turn, draw, and fire my gun and hit a target out 10 yards. The average police officer can do it in about 2 seconds. The average reaction time to the movement when I put people at my class under the test is that they fire at the same time. I generally do the test with gun at low ready and finger off the trigger. It takes longer than we think. So when someone goes for their gun, and that someone is good, they will probably fire a round before you can get a shot off. So you are in immediate danger.

Rob- You talked before about how hard it is to hold someone for the police.

Ben- I did. That part of a class takes me at least a half hour to demonstrate and drill. Now you might have to shoot someone in the back when they slowly reach for their gun.

Rob- Where are we going for our last story?Ben- Our fourth story took place in Saint Charles, Michigan.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at home?It is Friday morning after Thanksgiving. You hear a man scream and yell outside. You leave your home to see what is happening. You recognize another of your neighbors who came outside to investigate the disturbance. The two of you see a man jumping on a car and shouting. He sees you and runs to a home across the street. He breaks into the home. You know the neighbor that lives there. She is a 41 year old woman with two children aged 9 and 13. You follow the intruder into your neighbor’s home. You’re armed and you present your firearm. It isn’t clear which of the adults called 911.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. Police arrest the intruder. The 32 year old intruder appeared to be on drugs. He was charged with first-degree home invasion and malicious destruction of property costing more than $1,000 but less than $20,000.

You and your neighbor are not charged with a crime.

Tag- No shots fired.

Ben- He had his gun with him!

Recognized that the homeowner could use lethal force, but that the intruder was not yet an immediate threat. Having a partner makes your job so much easier.

Rob- What would you do in that situation?

Ben- Same thing our good guy did hear. Go see what is going on and then go to help my neighbor. Because I know them, and they know me. Do you know your neighbors? Or will your neighbor not recognize you and think you are part of the problem? Know your neighbors.

Rob- Lots of us live with a roommate or a spouse. Do you teach any classes that cover working together and team tactics?

Ben- Sometimes. It has been a while. But it is all about communication and cover and move. When you work together to solve the problem, with a plan, and a mission, you become way more formidable. If you don’t work as a team you will get out manuvered and it becomes a liability to have two of you.

Rob- A Liability?

Ben- If one person goes one way with their gun and is thinking search and destroy and the other person goes the other way and is thinking get to the exit or other in the house and they meet again, it won’t be pretty.

Rob- Any suggested plans?

Ben- Just talk about it because you know your skills and have an idea about your significant other or roommate. It might be as simple as one of you stays put and calls 911 while the other does the work. My plan is that simple. My wife stays put and I go get my kid and come back to our bedroom and wait for help.

Exit-Rob- That wraps up this episode. Ben, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Rob- After you read Ben’s articles and subscribe to his podcast, after you look at his videos and sign up for his classes. When all that is done and you’re giving your credit card a rest, then please leave us a message on the podcast episode webpage. It doesn’t cost you a thing.

Rob- LIke Ben’s podcast, this show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Candy Petticord brings us four new stories of sarmed defense. Some of us are not safe at home.

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Amanda Suffecool brings us four news stories of armed defense. These are stories of everyday heroes, but they sound like a movie script.

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Tony Simon brings us four news stories of armed defense. Are you armed at home at night, and as you go shopping during the day?

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Saving yourself and others while staying inside the law.

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Heather Reeves brings us four new stories of armed defense.

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Firearms instructor Ben Branam brings us four news stories of armed defense. A new gun owner has to press the trigger for the first time.

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Video is worth a thousand words, and you can be charged even if you don't press the trigger.

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Protecting your family and protecting yourself.

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Firearms instructor Tony Simon brings us four news stories of armed defense. You know enough AND there is always more to learn.

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These honest gun owerers faced lethal threats. They have a lot to teach us.

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These four gun owners faced lethal threats. This is how they defended themselves, theif friends, and their family.

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Armed at home and at work, by day and by night

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Can you defend yourself at home, at work, and in public? Firearms instructor David Cole brings us four news stories of armed defense.

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These four gun owners faced a lethal threat. Could you defend yourself at home, in public, and in your car? This is what we can learn.

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Good guys with guns saved lives last week. This is what we can learn from them.

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Firearms Instructor Amanda Suffecool brings us four news stories of armed defense. These citizens were attacked in or near their home.

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These ordinary people were attacked at home and at work. They faced a lethal threat and defended themselves. This is what we can learn.

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Firearms instructor David Cole give us homework for the test we hope we never take.

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These four citiznes defended themselves from lethal threats. This is what we can learn from their experience.

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These armed citizens defended themselves and their family from a lethal threat. This is what we can learn from them.

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Tony brings us four news stories of armed defense. These honest gun owners responded to a lethal threat. This is what we can learn.

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The more we plan the luckier we get.

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These gun owners survived a lethal threat. This is what we can learn from their experience.

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These ordianry citizens faced some serious criminals. This is what we can learn from their experience.

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Amanda Suffecool brings us four news stories of armed defense. These gun owenrs were in a tough spot. This is what we can learn.

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Armed citizens stop violent crime at home and at work. What should we do if we're the target of violent criminals?

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Here are four new stories of armed defense at home and in public. What should we do when we are in a situation like these?

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These armed citizens faced a lethal threat. They protected themselves, friends, and coworkers. What should you do if you were in their place?

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These honest gun owners defended themselves, their family, and strangers. What would you do in their place?

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Armed citizens save lives every day. Can you protect the people you love when you're at home and as you drive?

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Can you protect yourself at home, in your car, and at work? These four citizens faced a lethal threat. This is what we can learn.

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Armed citizens save friends, co-workers, and lovers. What would you do in their place?

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 266 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. How have you been, Robyn?

Robyn Sandoval Robyn- Hi, Rob. Thank you for having me on the podcast! I am doing great! I am busy planning the 10th Annual A Girl & A Gun National Conference that is coming up in April. We’re going to have nearly 600 women on the range training in pistols, rifles, and shotguns, in a variety of skills and disciplines. I’m finalizing the curriculum with the instructor team and I am so excited about this event!

How about you?

Rob- Nothing that exciting, but I carried every day.

We received a new rating and several new comments on iTunes this week. (now 272×155).

Dexter thinks the podcast is good material for people who are on the fence about armed-defense. Dexter, you and our other listeners are the best ambassadors for the right to bear arms. I hope we helped.

Pastor Mel sent in a story we used this week. He also shared our podcast with his fellow students at a concealed carry class. Thank you for your help and your encouragement, Pastor Mel.

Robbie likes to dig deep, so he likes that we publish the news source we use. He wondered if a defender in one of our stories could have used the gas pedal to escape rather than having to use his firearm.

Robbie, you might do that, now that you’ve considered it as an option. Thank you for bringing a lesson for all of us to see.

Scrabble likes that we mention the common types of training that are available, and that we promote organizations who support our right to bear arms.

Scrabble, I run those promotions because I’ve donated to those organizations. They support us today and I hope you will support them tomorrow.

Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Robyn- Here in the US, responsibly armed citizens defend themselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage. Please note that some of these stories are not suitable for young audiences.

Our first story took place last week in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive? It is dark and you’re making a pizza delivery in an area with small shops and homes. You pull down a street and a car is blocking the center of the road. You stop a distance away. A man runs from the sidewalk to your driver’s side door. He has a gun in his hand and the gun is pointed at you. He tells you to get out of your car and hand over your car keys.

You are one of the 1.5 million residents who have your Pennsylvania license to carry a concealed firearm. You’re armed tonight. You turn in the seat and present your gun. Your attacker shoots at you, and you shoot back.. six times. Now your attacker runs to the car blocking the street. You back up the street and go back to the pizza shop to call the police.

You agree to meet the police back at the scene of the attack. You give the police a brief statement and show them your carry permit.

Police arrest your attacker when his two accomplices bring him to a local hospital. Police arrest his accomplices for questioning while your attacker remains under guard and in critical condition. You’re not charged with a crime. You’re 39 years old and your wounded attacker is 35. This makes the hundredth carjacking or attempted carjacking in Philadelphia this month.

Robyn, what did our defender do to save his life?

Robyn- In this situation, the defender was aware of the patterns of crime in the area. He was alert, paying attention to his surroundings, and was properly equipped with his firearm.

He defended himself when he faced a threat and he stopped shooting when the threat ended and the attacker ran away. Then the defender chose to relocated to a place of safety so that he could contact the police to report the crime. Once law enforcement arrived, he returned to the scene and fully cooperated with the police. That is what good guys do.

Rob- It sounds like he paid attention in his concealed carry course.

Robyn- It does. This defender knew that carjackings were on the rise in the area. He had a firearm that he was legally allowed to carry, and was mentally and physically prepared for this kind of scenario. Hopefully he quickly recognized that something was wrong when the car was stopped in the middle of the road. He should have already been scanning his surroundings for signs of trouble and be ready to act.

In one of the news reports there was video evidence from a doorbell camera that was consistent with the defender’s statements. We see more of those cameras in use and they help innocent defenders like us.

Rob- What choices did our defender face?

Robyn- A defender always has choices, but the one thing he can’t do is nothing. Freezing in this situation would be dangerous. To save his life, he had to act. He could have complied and exited the vehicle and handed over his keys. He could have looked like he was complying and gotten out of the car in order to draw his firearm in a more direct firing position. He could have gotten out of the car and tried to run away. He also could have possibly used his vehicle to drive up on a curb around the parked car or in reverse back up the street. He also had the choice to shoot the attacker through the window, and he had the choice of how many times he chose to fire.

Rob- It sounds like the defender had thought about this situation before he saw it that night. When do you talk to your students about thinking through the common risks they might face?

Robyn- The body can’t go where the mind has not been. Classes that teach skills for defending yourself in and around vehicles provide a lot of great and useful information, and give a person practice and repetition in taking action. I encourage people to seek out classes that teach an efficient drawstroke from inside a vehicle, managing shots through glass, understanding muzzle control in a confined space, and other skills that are needed in a situation like this.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like to cover, or should we go on to our second story?

Robyn- I’ll save some for later, so our second story happened in Bend, Oregon.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed when you go out on the town with friends. You, a friend, and your fiance are at a bar. This young drunk man keeps hitting on your fiance. You and your friends decide to leave and the drunk follows you into the parking lot. He grabs your fiance and asks her for sex again. You tell him to stop and he hits you. You present your firearm and tell him to stop. Now, the drunk hits your friend. Your friend pushes him away when the drunk squares up and raises his fist at you for the second time. You shoot him. Now he stops. You call 911.

You give a statement to the police. Your attacker died at the hospital. You’re arrested and charged. There are three videos of your defense. Protesters say you shot your attacker because he was black and that you used racial slurs. You have witnesses and videos that prove otherwise. Your attacker’s blood alcohol level was .195%, or almost two and a half times the legal limit for intoxication. You have a lawyer who knows about self-defense cases. He releases the videos.

Robyn- It is a frustrating and often scary situation when a man keeps pursuing a woman despite her rejection. She made a smart decision to leave the bar, but the man chose to follow her to the parking lot and grab her, even though she was accompanied by two other men.

The defender tried to de-escalate the situation by leaving with his fiance and friend, and was attacked before he presented his firearm. However, when the attacker assaulted his friend and then began to charge towards the defender, the defender was forced to defend himself. He fired one shot, stopped shooting when the attack stopped, administered first aid, and remained on the scene to give a statement.

Rob- I noticed that this defender killed his attacker with one shot and the attacker in the earlier story was shot six times and then ran away.

Robyn- We’ll talk about that again in the next story, but our listeners need to remember that where you shoot an assailant is extremely important.

Rob- Are attacks at a bar very common?

Robyn- Yes, when people are intoxicated a lot of situations can be easily escalated because people are not thinking clearly and may have fewer inhibitions than normal. That’s why they call alcohol “liquid courage.” Unfortunately we don’t have statistics for how many bar fights escalate into violent attacks. The law varies greatly from state to state regarding whether or not an individual can carry in a bar, or any other place that serves alcohol.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Robyn- The political climate of an area can be a real concern to a person who uses his or her firearm in self defense. A anti-gun district attorney or prosecutor could make it very difficult to survive the legal fight after the gun fight.

Be mindful when you travel into jurisdictions where a defender may not receive a fair trial. Avoid those areas if you can, including bars and convenience stores in those areas, and have self-defense insurance so you have immediate access to an attorney that specializes in firearms cases.

You also want to talk through your defense with your friends and family. A firearm is a last resort. Maybe the three of you have to tackle the attacker to the ground, or run back inside the bar. Have options ahead of time so a barfight doesn’t evolve into a gunfight.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do in a situation like this one?

Robyn- The fiance was taking video of the attack, but perhaps she could have had the command presence to participate in her own defense earlier in the situation. Maybe she could have de-escalated the situation so that he didn’t follow them from the bar, or she could have deployed pepper spray or a nonlethal option when he grabbed her.

Rob- Should we shoot to wound?

Robyn- If there is an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury, then shots must be placed accurately so that the threat is immediately stopped. From a legal perspective, if the intention is not to incapacitate, then lethal force itself would not be justified. And it would be negligent to send rounds that could miss the target and could cause the unintended injuries of bystanders.

Our third story happened in Ville Platte, Louisiana.

Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

http://jpfo.org/ Rob- Third story- Do you have a gun nearby as you sleep in your bed? It is well before dawn on a weekday morning. You’re jolted from sleep by the sound of breaking wood. You hear someone moving through your house. Your ex-boyfriend comes into your bedroom and tries to take off your night clothes. You fight him off. Your child hears the yelling and comes into your room. Then, your ex leads the child back to the child’s bedroom. You grab your handgun and wait. When your ex comes back, you tell him to leave. He moves toward you and you shoot him. He reaches for your gun and you shoot him again. Now your ex-boyfriend grabs your gun and runs away. You drive to the police station and talk to the officers at the desk. You give them a description of your attacker.

The police find your attacker at the hospital with a gunshot wound in each leg. He is arrested for theft of a firearm, home Invasion, false imprisonment, violation of protective orders, attempted 2nd degree rape, criminal damage to property, and battery of a dating partner with child endangerment.

You’re not charged, but the police are holding your gun as evidence.

Robyn- There is a lot going on in this story. She was prepared because she had taken out a restraining order on her ex. It was clear that he was not welcome in her home under any circumstances. She also made sure her doors were locked and she was armed. She defended herself, left for safety after the attack, and contacted the police.

Rob- What else do you see in this story?

Robyn- My first thought was the safety of the child. She waited in her bedroom with her firearm until her ex and her child were separated, but when she left to the police station, hopefully she took her child to safety, too.

Rob- What do you tell your students to do?

Robyn- The sad truth is that more than half of all female homicides are related to domestic violence and in 93 percent of those cases, the culprit was a current or former romantic partner. A ten-city study found about one-fifth of the female IPV victims who had a restraining order were killed within 2 days of the order being issued; about one-third were killed within a month.

So we tell women in this situation to acknowledge that this is only a piece of paper and the danger is still present. She needs to prepare a safety plan with the help of a professional organization or professional counselor. Have the mindset, training, and equipment that you must stop ANYONE who is attempting to kill you, even if it is your child’s father or someone you love.

If you cannot pull the trigger in the above scenario in less than 3 seconds to stop your attacker, you will need other defensive skills to keep your weapon from being taken from you and being fatally used against you. Seek out a class in handgun retention and practice these skills frequently.

Rob- It is hard to make a plan in seconds when you were asleep only seconds ago. What could that plan look like?

Robyn- If you hear a crashing sound like that, then-

Grab your gun, and your phone, and a light if possible.
Turn on the lights.
Move so you’re between your child and an intruder.
Get to the top of the stairs or behind a corner so you’re not a target.
Move yourself and your children to a safe room or secondary exit if you can.
Shout that you’ve called the police and that you’re armed.
Shoot your intruder if they advance toward you. Aim for the high center chest. If they come closer, then aim for the triangle between the eyes and the bottom of the nose.
Shoot until the threat stops.

Rob- That sounds like some mental homework and some emotional homework.

Robyn- Paul Sharp says, “If I could snap my fingers, I’d make it the way it should be. We have to survive in the world the way it is.” The challenge is getting women to acknowledge their reality (yes, this is really happening; you’re not being dramatic), and then helping them take action!

Some women are afraid of escalation. Often a woman won’t get a restraining order because they don’t want to poke the bear and manifest the attack that they are afraid of. It is a delicate conversation, but the most important first step to her empowerment and safety.

Rob- We used to say pants-on-gun-on, but we have so many people working from home that they might spend the day in sweats. Are there other ways to carry a firearm at home that don’t require a gun belt? (and when do your students learn about pocket carry?)

Robyn- Women have more safe holster options now than ever before. There are many holsters that work with any style of clothing. For example, it used to be difficult to carry in yoga pants or pants without a belt, but now there are a lot of concealment garments, clip-on holsters, or even holsters like the Engima system that fits to your body and is independent of your clothes altogether. The important thing is that the holster is made for the make and model of your carry gun and completely 100% covers the trigger guard.

Our fourth story took place in Waco, Texas.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed when you stop for gas? You’re stopped at a convenience store a few hours after dark. You hear a woman scream for help and you see her run into the store. You see a man with a knife chasing her. You see him stab her. You move toward them and shout for him to stop. The attacker stabs his victims again when they are inside the store. You present your firearm and shoot the attacker twice. Now he drops his knife so you stop shooting. Both the victim and the attacker are bleeding. You shout for the store clerk to call 911.

Emergency Medical Services take the victim and the attacker to the hospital with serious injuries. You stay at the scene and give a statement to the police. Other witnesses tell the police what they saw. The store has surveillance video that matches your story. It takes a while, but the police send you home.

Robyn- The defender was carrying his firearm on body. He was paying attention and took the cries for help seriously. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat to an innocent party. He acted to stop the threat, and he stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police when they arrived.

Rob- This reminds me of the previous story where you had to consider what you’d do ahead of time or the attack would be over by the time you closed your mouth and decided to act.

Robyn- Exactly. The defender was planning to get gas and maybe grab a snack, but instead his day went in an entirely different direction in an instant.

As usual, these stories are not as clear as we’d like. The story doesn’t say if the defender was standing outside the store or if he was already inside when he heard the woman scream for help. Also, it isn’t clear when the defender holstered his firearm.

Rob- You did such a good job with the last plan, what should we plan to do if this happened in front of us?

Robyn- The first step is trying to gather as much information in order to make an informed decision. Who is screaming, who is attacking, could this be a law enforcement situation, could this be a mass casualty situation, is it safe and prudent for me to get involved?

The next step is to look at the proximity. The victim and the attacker were close to each other, so the defender has to determine if it is possible to shoot the attacker without hitting the victim or any other bystanders. That may mean getting closer to the attacker and moving so that we have a freezer case behind the attacker rather than another customer.

When the shooting stops you want to make it safe so people can treat the injured. That may mean standing over the attacker’s knife to secure it, and ensuring your gun is in a safe direction and not at innocent people.

Ask everyone if they are injured. Ask them to call 911. Ask them to help treat the injured.

Holster your gun away as soon as you can.

If this were a robbery, we’d want to lock the doors. Always remember that bad guys have friends, so be mindful that there could be additional attackers outside, maybe a buddy who was in the car with him when he arrived.

Rob- When do your students learn to make good plans like that one?

Robyn- Being a responsibly armed citizen means playing the “what if” game on a consistent basis. For example, when you’re pumping gas, think, “what would I do if I saw a person attack someone?” and then play out the scenario in your head. Where is cover and concealment? Where are your exits? How will your plan change if your family is with you?

Look for classes near you that help you with decision making. Some of these classes can be taken on simulators so you’re not even working with live ammunition, but you have the ability to walk through shoot/no-shoot situations. You’ll develop the skills to watch for abnormal movement before it happens, so that you can give yourself time and distance to react or get away. You’ll be able to practice using your words to de-escalate or command a situation. You’ll be able to consider tools you can use with varying degrees of force that can be applied in different situations.

Exit- Rob- that wraps up this episode. Robyn, thank you for helping us today. Where can we find out more about you?

Robyn- If you’re an experienced gun owner, or simply interested in self-defense, then look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages.

Rob- After you look at Robyn’s classes, then please leave her a message on the episode webpage.

Robyn- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 265 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you are still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. You were injured the last time you were with us. I hope you’re healed.

David Cole Dave- Hi, Rob. Still healing slowly and setting up a new rifle and scope. How about you?

Rob- We received a new rating and and comment on iTunes ( 271×153) ). A listener (BobbyPos) said he found us from another podcast I was on, and he started listening from the beginning. He likes the format of the stories, and he likes the co-hosts.

Thank you, Bobby. I like them too.

On Facebook, John Ashton Randolph said he listens during his workouts. Quote “The content is amazing and the guests are very professional and knowledgeable. I look forward to sharing both the podcast and Facebook page with my students.”

Thank you, John. We grow because our listeners share us with their friends.

Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let others know why you listen.

Dave- In the United States, we defend ourselves with a firearm several thousand times a day. Each week we look at recent examples and see what we can learn. The links to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Killeen, Texas.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you drive during the day? It is 10 in the morning and you’re driving down a frontage road next to the highway. You’re watching as a car crashes at the intersection right in front of you. Police cars are right behind the crashed car. Some of the police get out of their cars and run toward you. That and the flashing lights stop traffic. A stranger is running away from the police and he has a gun in his hand. You put your hand on your concealed firearm. The stranger runs up to your car, points his gun at you, and shouts for you to get out of your car. You raise your firearm and shoot your attacker several times. He steps back from your car. Police are there in seconds. You drop your gun and put up your hands.

Police roll your attacker over and handcuff him. They call EMS. A few minutes later they ask you to step out of your car and show your identification. You give a brief statement to the police.

Later, you found out that your attacker was a known criminal running from the police. He had outstanding warrants for burglary and armed robbery. Your attacker remains in critical condition.

Dave- At its most basic level, this is defense from a carjacker…but with an extra degree of difficulty. I like that our defender was armed. I love that he was paying attention. He saw the crash happen in front of him and he recognized that was unusual. He decided that it was a threat.

Then, he got ahead of the problem by having his firearm in mind and in hand before an attacker could grab him.

The story doesn’t say if the defender shot through his car window, shot through the open window, or opened the door and then shot his attacker as the defender got out of his car.

With police that close, it is a good idea to drop the gun and put your hands where the police can see them.

Rob- What else do you see?

Dave- You don’t want to present a firearm when the robber already has his gun pointed at you. That means you need to be ahead of the curve, or find a distraction which will allow you to access your gun. Drawing from a seated position in a car is more difficult than standing.

Rob- Do carjackings happen very often?

Dave- I read the news like you do. We’re seeing more of them. I think they have increased by at least 50 percent.

Rob- Our defender shot the attacker more than once. When do I start shooting and when should I stop?

Dave- When you have to, and not any longer.

Rob- When do your students learn about defense outside the home.

Dave- Using a firearm in defense…inside or outside the home…is normally taught as more advanced training after basic concealed carry. After they learn about firearms safety, marksmanship, presentation, concealed carry, use of cover and concealment, legal use of lethal force. Now we’re ready to talk about applying those building blocks outside the home.

Rob- Anything else you’d like to say about this story?

Dave- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Kansas City, Missouri.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home in the middle of the day? It is a little before noon on Saturday. You are standing in your kitchen when you hear a thud from the back door. You look and see a man standing on your back porch. He shouts at you and you shout that this is your home and for him to go away, He slams into the door again and breaks some of the glass. You run to your bedroom and grab your handgun gun. The stranger slams into your back door again. You shoot him. Now he steps away from the door. You call 911.

Police are already on the way because your neighbors reported a prowler in the area. You put your gun away and wait for the police. They find your intruder in your backyard. Emergency Medical Services take him to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. Your intruder died in the hospital.

Dave- What she did right. She locked her doors. Thank you! She recognized a problem and ran to get her gun. She stayed inside so the bad guy could not get his hands on her. She defended herself and then she stayed inside and called for help.

Rob- That is a lot to do correctly, but there is even more you’d like your students to do.

Dave- This happened in the middle of the day. You are the treasure and I want to keep you safe. If the bad guy is pounding on your back door, can you grab your gun and your phone and leave out the front door. Can you retreat to your bedroom, lock the bedroom door, and call the police from there?

Rob- It is a gray area to shoot someone who is outside your home.

Dave- It can be. You have to be able to explain why the person outside your home was a lethal, immediate, and unavoidable threat, and that is hard to do.

Rob- When do your students learn when they should use their gun?

Dave-

Rob- Why do you think this homeowner shot the man outside her home?

Dave- She might not have considered the many situations when she might need to use her firearm for defense. If she didn’t have a plan, that means she had to make a split second decision. We can’t plan for every eventuality, but we can think through options and walk through them, refine them, and then take our best option. That gives us an outline of what to do, and what to avoid.

Rob- Now we have a plan to make a plan.

Dave- Enough with the planning. Our third story happened Near Modesto, California.

Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation.

Second Amendment Foundation https://www.saf.org/

Rob- Third story- Do you have a gun nearby at night? You hear someone scratching at your window screen. You’re in bed and it is 4 in the morning. Someone tries to open your window, but your window is locked. You roll out of bed and grab your handgun. The intruder has a gun in his hand and you shoot him. You grab your phone and retreat from your room. You call 911 and ask for the police. You stay inside your home until the police arrive. You put your gun away. The police find your intruder’s firearm. Emergency Medical Services take your intruder to the hospital. You give a brief statement to the police.

Dave- I like that the doors and windows were locked. I like that the defender had his gun nearby at night.

I said it is hard to explain how someone outside your house is a threat? This is a good example where an attacker having a gun in his hands makes him a threat to you while you’re inside your home. Also, since this happened at night it is harder to run out the front door if you can’t see who is out there.

Rob- What would you like us to do?

Dave- I’d like you to turn on the lights in your room and move into the dark hallway outside your bedroom. That way you can see the bad guy but he can’t see you. I want you to call 911 as soon as you can.

Since you’ve given me a wish list, I want hurricane film on your windows.

Rob- When do you talk with your students about stories like this one?

Dave- The NRA has a defense in the home class.

Dave- Our fourth story took place in Rock Island, Illinois.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work? You’re working behind the counter at a smoke shop and corner store. It is early in the evening when three men run inside. They are wearing hoodies, but everyone wears hoodies. They are wearing masks, but lots of your customers wear masks. They point a gun at you, and that gets your attention. You’re armed. You are carrying concealed. The armed robber asks if you have kids and want to go home to see them. You open the cash register and hand him the evening’s receipts. The three robbers are leaving when you see them point their gun at a customer who is entering the store. You present your firearm and shoot the armed robber. All three robbers run out the door and drive away.

Your two co-workers are shaken, but not injured. You call 911. You give a statement to the police. You show the officers security video of the robbery. They find your injured robbers nearby. Two of them are taken to the hospital. The injured robbers had a history of armed robbery. One was out on parole. One died in the hospital. Police are looking for the third robber.

You called your boss and quit your job.

Dave- Our defender was armed. It sounds like he was carrying a personal firearm on his body. He recognized a threat and recognized he would need time to defend himself. He didn’t have that time, so he waited. I’ve heard it called a tactical pause, waiting for your turn, or tactical patience.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Dave- I’d like it if all of you were armed and you’d walked through a security plan. Maybe you would do exactly what this person did, but maybe not. Maybe you’d dive under the counter so you don’t get shot as soon as the robber turns away. While you’re down there, get your gun in your hands and have your co-workers crawl to the back room.

Rob- What else do you notice about this story?

Dave- Let’s look at this robbery moment by moment. You don’t want to draw on a drawn gun because you don’t want to be shot. You give the robber the money. Suppose the robbers turn around and walk toward the door. They might attack you again, but it is hard to call them an immediate threat. Now he points his gun at another customer who is coming in the door. That is a lethal threat to innocent parties so again you’re justified in shooting. You don’t have to shoot, but you can.

Rob- This changes each second.

Dave- It does. While you have time, think about where your bullets will stop. What is behind or beyond your attacker? You don’t want to be the guy who shoots the innocent customer who is walking across your parking lot.

Dave- I remember when I started shooting competitively. I had a reasonably fast draw and good first shot accuracy. The more I studied self-defense the less important that became. I want enough time to shoot and disable the attacker before he can shoot me. It was good to know how much time I needed, but more important to recognize when I had enough time to act. Being crouched down behind a counter so I don’t get shot is a great idea. Use it.

Rob- The defender quit his job.

Dave- He said his life was threatened, and then he was afraid he’d be wiped out if he had to defend himself legally. I want you to have legal insurance if you plan to use a firearm for self-defense.

Rob- I see what you did there. You didn’t say if you carry concealed.

Dave- Right. Remember the story where the homeowners shot an intruder outside their home? They need a lawyer too.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Mister David Cole, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Look for my written articles at deltabravocharlie.com

Rob- I noticed that your last article was called “Shooting to wound”.

Dave- Yes. It’s a popular theme in TV and movies, but not so great in real life.

Rob- After you look at Dave articles, then leave a comment for him on the podcast episode webpage.

Dave- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Amanda, Ben, Heather, Dave, Candy, Tony, Robyn, Michael

Apple categories- news commentary, self-improvement

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 264 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you are still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Ben Branam. How have you been, Ben?

Firearms Instructor Ben Branam Ben- Hi, Rob. I’ve been working, shooting, and having a great time.

How about you?

Rob- Teaching a few students.

We received a new rating and comment on iTunes (is 270 by 152) A listener (Bde Sigo) said he has been listening for years. He likes that we describe what the defender did correctly, what instructors teach as best practice, and how we might avoid the fight altogether.

That is exactly what we try to do, and sometimes we succeed.

Robert Beckman said he listens too. Rob hosts the Firearms Trainer’s Podcast.

Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let new listeners know what you like.

Ben- We defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in North Pole, Alaska.

Is it really at the north pole?

Rob- No, it isn’t.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at night in public? You have some firearms for sale. You advertised them online. The buyers agree to meet at the local taco bell at 11 at night. You bring the guns. You settle on a price of 27-hundred dollars. One of the buyers is looking at one of your CZ handguns when he points the gun at you. You loaded the gun with snap caps. The second buyer draws his own firearm. He points his gun at you and says they will take all your guns.

Well, not all of them. You’re carrying concealed. You grab the barrel of your robber’s gun. You turn that pistol to the side while you’re drawing your own handgun. You shoot your attacker until he lets go of his gun. Then you turn your firearm to the person holding the gun you were selling. The story isn’t clear if you let the first robber run away, or if he dropped your gun and put his hands up. You call 911 and ask for emergency medical services and for the police.

Police take your attacker’s firearm. EMS transports the wounded robber to the hospital. Your armed attacker dies from complications resulting from a close range gunshot to the abdomen. The police also arrest the surviving attacker. He is charged with first-degree aggravated robbery and manslaughter because he “knowingly engaged in conduct that resulted in the death of another person.” He is 19 years old.

You are not charged with a crime. The robbers didn’t bring any money to buy the guns.

Ben- The story doesn’t say anything about the good guy having a permit, but Alaska is a Constitutional carry state. Meaning any good person can be armed. And our good person was!

Our good guy did a couple things right: He Recognized the greater threat

Defended against the immediate threat first

Grabbed the gun

Stopped shooting

Called

Stayed

Statement

Rob- Do online sales end in robbery very often?

Ben- It is kind of hard to rob someone over the internet, someone can steal or embezzle from you.

Rob- I’m sure there are some things you’d like your students to do if they were in a similar situation.

Ben- better meeting spot

Bring a buddy

Vet the people you are meeting, get their names, addresses and check their profiles.

Remember robbers love cash, jewelry, electronics, and guns.

Shooting up close from retention

Practice when to stop shooting.

Move if possible and stack your targets

Rob- This could go so wrong so fast. What should we say to the police when they arrive?

Ben- someone tried to rob and kill me, I defended myself, point out the evidence, point out witnesses, and point out who was involved, then ask for a lawyer and shut up

Rob- Shut up?

Ben- Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Asking for a lawyer means they can’t ask questions of you and use it in court, any spontaneous statement can be used.

Rob- Talk to me about self-defense insurance.

Ben- Not a bad thing, it could cost you $100k or more to defend yourself and not go to jail

Rob- Is there more you want to add?

Ben- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work as you drive? You work as a home healthcare nurse. You deliver medication and monitor patients. You pull up to one of your patients’ homes and it is almost midnight. You turn off the car and a young man appears at your door out of the dark. The stranger points a gun at you. The robber tells you to get out of your car.

You own a gun. You have your Pennsylvania concealed carry permit. You’re armed tonight and carrying concealed on your body. The news story doesn’t say if you presented your firearm while you were seated in your car or if you were standing next to it. You shoot your attacker several times. He runs away.

You stay at the scene and look around. Now you put your gun away and call 911. You give a statement to the police when they arrive, including a description of your robber. Police arrest your robber when he arrives at a local hospital suffering from gunshot wounds to the face, neck and thumb.

You’re not charged with a crime, and you’re late to see your patient.

Ben- This was particularly hard because

Night

Presentation while you’re getting out of your car

Winter coat and gloves

Again, when to stop shooting

Do you have to put your gun away so you can use your phone, or can you call 911 with your off hand?

Rob- Is there something else we can do?

Ben- Do a recon of the area if possible, or make sure you pull into the driveway so your lights illuminate the area you will be going and someone could be hiding. It’s work, but your life is worth it.

Rob- What else do you see?

Ben- The good news is that darkness works both ways. The robber can’t see as you remove your seatbelt and reach back for your gun. Use a distraction like, “You want my wallet too?” It turns out that the robber can’t watch what you’re doing, talk to you, and plan his next move at the same time. And people expect to see what they are thinking about.

Rob- Is there anything else?

Ben- Be aware of crime in your area. They have had a lot of carjackings in Philly after the DA said he wouldn’t prosecute auto theft as a property crime.

Rob- How would your students learn about being safe as they drive?

Ben- They have to read local news stories and listen to shows like this. Let’s move onto Our third story also took place in Philadelphia.

Rob- First this message from doctors for responsible gun ownership.

DRGO https://drgo.us/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed as you drive home? You pull up to your house in North Philadelphia. You’re lucky to find a parking place on the street. It is about 7:30 in the evening when you turn off your car. Two young men walk up to the driver’s side door. They point a firearm at your head. They tell you to leave your keys in the car. You’re being robbed.

You have your carry permit. You’re carrying concealed tonight. You take off your seatbelt and get out of your car. The attacker still has his gun pointed at your face. You step to the side and present your handgun. You shoot your attacker several times. He shoots at you. You keep shooting until he drops his gun. Now your attacker limps around the corner. The other robber runs away. You stay near your car and call the police.

You holster your gun and pull out your cell phone. You call 911 and tell them what happend. Your ears are ringing and there are powder burns on the side of your head. You show the officers your carry permit when they arrive. The police find your wounded attacker in a jeep parked around the corner. He is shot in both legs and in the shoulder. EMS takes him to the hospital in critical condition.

The blood stained Jeep your attacker used was reported stolen a few days ago. This is Philadelphia’s 91st carjacking in the first two weeks of 2022. You are sixty years old and your attacker was sixteen. You are not charged with a crime.

Ben- Armed. He chose the right robber to shoot, and evidently the right robber not to shoot. He is lucky he moved so he wasn’t wounded, but he was hurt. He probably lost hearing in one ear and may be scarred for life by the powder burns on his face.

Short of murder, aggravated robbery and attempted aggravated murder is a very serious crime. Some DAs let teenagers get a reduced sentence, and that has led to more murders. There is an old law enforcement theory that once a person gets caught for a crime, on average it is their 10th attempt. DA’s pose it to judges that this is their first time, really it is their first time getting caught.

Rob- Powder burns.

Ben- Multiple attackers. Motion.

Rob- When do you talk to your students about when they should shoot?

Ben- all the time constantly. It’s one of those things we just can’t talk enough about. When it is time, you have to act without hesitation. If our good guy hadn’t stepped out of the way he probably would have been shot in the head as evident by the powder burns on his face.

Rob- How easy is that to do, and when do your students get to practice?

Ben- It’s hard to know when to shoot and when not to. And it is only your life and someone else’s in the balance. You can practice by putting yourself in these situations and thinking about when and how you would react.

Rob-

Ben- Our fourth story took place in Chickasha, Oklahoma.

Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a gun nearby at night? You hear a long crashing sound. There is another one and it is loud and your house shakes. Now someone is knocking on windows outside. You and your wife get out of bed, pull on clothes, and go see what happened. You also grab your firearm. A stranger standing next to your neighbor’s house sees you. He runs onto your porch. He knocks your wife down as he forces his way into your home. You follow both of them and tell him to get out. He charges you and you shoot him until he lets go of you. You and your wife step away and call 911. Your wife isn’t hurt.

Emergency medical services enter your home and declare your attacker dead at the scene. It is 5am when you give a brief statement to the police. Your attacker crashed through the building of a nearby fast food restaurant, drove through another front yard, and backed into your house before he started beating on your neighbor’s windows. You are not charged with a crime.

Ben- Put the gun away. Alcohol or drugs.

Rob- What else would you like us to do?

Ben- Both be armed.

Rob- When do your students learn about storing their firearms for the night?

Ben-

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about what Ben Branam is doing?

Rob- After you look at Ben’s videos and sign up for his podcast, then leave a comment for him at the Self Defense Gun Stories webpage at the bottom of each episode.

Ben- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- Like Ben’s show, this podcast is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 263 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. How have you been, Heather?

Heather Reeves Heather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been training and teaching and enjoy the downtime that accompanies the holidays.

How about you?

Rob- I’m over Covid. During our downtime, I also noticed that we have 14 hundred followers on Facebook. Thanks to our listeners for that.

Each week, we post the stories from our podcast on our webpage, and also at Ammoland. Then I expand one of the stories into a full length article. That article becomes the Armed Citizen Column at Ammoland Shooting Sports News. James left a comment on the podcast facebook page and called it a great article.

Thank you, James.

Harold said he is listening to the old podcasts in order. He thought a gunfight would be like the OK corral, but he has slowly changed his mind as we bring him new stories.

Thank you Harold. Good thinking on your part.

We also received a new rating and a new comment on iTunes (is 269, 152). PyroJames said he started listening on a long trip. Now he and his family listen each week as part of their training program.

PJ, your comment means a lot because that is how I hoped the podcast would be used. Thank you for taking care of your family.

Our listeners are our salesmen, so please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. We reach more listeners if you leave us a rating and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Heather- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We study a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First story- Are you armed in public? You saw the advertisement online. The seller has some shoes you want at a price you’re willing to pay. You go to the meeting point after work. You meet the seller. He asks to see the money before he shows you the shoes. You reach into your pocket to show him the cash. As you take your hand out of your pocket the seller shoots you.

You own a gun. You have your Illinois Firearms Owners Identification Card in your wallet right next to your concealed carry permit. You’re armed tonight. You present your gun. You shoot your attacker as you back away. You get into your car and try to drive away, but can’t drive. You call 911 for help. You give the police a description of your attacker.

You’re taken to the hospital for treatment of a gunshot wound to your shoulder. Police arrest your attacker at the hospital when he seeks treatment for a gunshot wound to his hand. You are not charged with a crime, but you never did get the shoes.

Heather- I like that our defender was armed in Chicago, and that isn’t easy. He was intentional about his personal safety. He defended himself even though he was hit with a surprise attack. He moved to safety, and then he called for help.

Rob- I know there are things you’d like us to do if we buy and sell online.

Heather- Oh yes. Drug dealers meet in a park after dark, so don’t do that. I looked it up, and there were frequent attacks in this park. Make your exchanges at a police station or a hotel lobby that has video surveillance. Do the exchange on your terms, you name the place and time so that you have the upper hand in knowing the area and circumstances of the exchange.

Rob- Our defender presented his gun from concealment in the winter time. You live up north. Talk to me about drawing your gun in the winter.

Heather- The good news is that the defender had just opened his coat to reach the money that was in his pocket. The bad news is up in these parts, your concealment draw has to take into consideration your layers. Once you’ve taken a course where time is spent on the concealed draw (I recommend one where they are going to go over open front garments and closed front garments), then you can work with your other awkward clothing in a dry fire situation from inside your home. You may need to practice taking your gloves off, or find a pair of gloves that will allow you to access your firearm. You may need to make a concession on coat wearing, layers, and more. I have a really long thick trench coat. While I love it, I have spent a lot of time realizing that if I really need to bundle up it takes me MUCH longer than normal to get to my firearm. (lay out the classes, then talk about working around a heavy coat/gloves)

The good thing is that the car was warm so the defender wasn’t wearing gloves when he was attacked.

Rob- When do your students start carrying a loaded firearm under their clothing in public?

Heather- Not so fast. Let’s learn how to handle a firearm safely. Then we learn how to hit a target. Then we learn how to present from an outside the waistband holster. Then we move the holster inside the waistband and under a cover garment.

Rob- Do you talk to your students about making on-line sales and meeting strangers?

Heather- While it’s not a specific talking point, I do tend to bring it up anytime we are talking about safety strategies. Primarily because stories like this are becoming more and more common as individuals are trying to sell directly to someone they have never met.

Rob- Anything else?

Heather- I think I’ll save some for the other stories. Our second defensive gun use happened in Yakima, Washington.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed in your car as you drive? It is either a late lunch or an early dinner. You’re sitting in your car eating some fast food before you go shopping for groceries at Walmart. Your girlfriend is sitting next to you and her teenage daughter is sitting in the back seat. It is about 4pm when a stranger pulls open your driver’s side door and points a gun at you. He tells you to give him your money and get out of the car. You are armed. You take off your seat belt. You move to get out of the car. As you turn you present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker striking him in the chest and the neck. Your attacker turns away and you stop shooting. You yell for everyone to get back in your car. You drive across the street and call the police.

Police take your statement. They interview you, your girlfriend, and her daughter separately at the police station. You are released and not charged.

Your attacker survived because an Emergency Medical Team was shopping at Walmart and heard your shots.

Heather- Thank goodness that our defender was armed. He recognized an unexpected threat. Give that some weight, because there is a real possibility of sitting there with your mouth full of fries, a hamburger in one hand and a drink in the other, and mumbling, “say what?” when there is a gun in your face. The good news is that the defender used the robber’s commands as an excuse to take off his seatbelt and to turn his body toward the door, and to free his firearm. The frightening part is that he had his family right behind him. He defended them very well. In a fraction of a second he delivered two shots that stopped his attacker. Then he got out of there so his family was safe. Once they were in a safe area, he stopped and called 911 so he could report the crime. That keeps him from being reported as a fleeing assailant.

Notice that the police interviewed each witness separately. Our defender was released because they all described the same event.. And they were not in the parking lot to complete a drug deal.

Rob- This is way beyond what you teach in your first firearms safety class. Where did you learn to present your gun in a vehicle or as you got out of a vehicle?

Heather- A vehicle defense class is an experience I highly recommend to anyone who is looking to go armed while in their vehicle. Thinking in and around vehicles for a weekend is enough to really make you think differently about the car you’re driving and how you can be safer in parking lots.

Rob- You defended yourself from a lethal threat. Now you want to drive for an hour as fast as your car will go; or stop the car, hug your loved ones and get down on your knees and say thank you to god; or go get drunk. Despite what we feel, what should we do after we survived an attack?

Heather- You survived the first fight. Now you are deep in the second contest of defending yourself FROM the legal system. Call 911 immediately. Give them a three sentence description of what happened. Tell them where to find you. Ask your loved ones to call 911, then you call your lawyer.

That might sound selfish, but you’ve reported the crime so emergency personnel are on their way to help the injured. You made yourself available to the police. And now you have to start taking care of you and your legal defense.

Rob- That makes sense to me, but that sounds strange to someone who recently entered the culture of armed defense. When do you tell your students about their legal defense?

Heather- The police and the legal system are there to sort out if there are charges to be pressed. It’s nothing personal against the individual, they are trying to be the impartial, logical side of things and looking at whether or not what you did was justified. I have yet to meet anyone who defended themselves who didn’t think that force was completely necessary and justified when they used it. However, we know that isn’t always the case from a “frozen moment in time” or legal perspective. You have to put up a legal defense of your actions. That can seem scary and overwhelming which is why it is important to continue learning about the laws in your area that may come into play when using force to defend yourself.

Our third story happened in Appleton, Wisconsin.

Rob- First this message from FASTER Colorado.

https://i2i.org/faster-training/

Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby as you sleep? You and your family are at home before dawn on Sunday morning. You hear someone banging on your door and yelling to get inside. You move your wife and children into your bedroom and grab your gun. You lock your bedroom door and call the police. The stranger breaks down your door. A few minutes later he tries to enter your bedroom. You yell to go away, you’re armed, and you’ve called the police. Your wife is on the phone with 911. The stranger breaks down your door. You shoot him. Now he turns and goes outside. You stay inside and wait for the police.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. Police and EMS were already on the way because your neighbors heard the man yelling. EMS transports your attacker to the hospital where he died. His blood alcohol level was three-and-a-half times the legal limit to drive.

It took over six months for the police and the district attorney to rule this was a justified case of self-defense. Finally, you are not charged with a crime.

Heather- This is a textbook story in several ways. You locked your doors. You recognized a threat. You and your partner gathered your family into a safe room. You grabbed your firearm. You locked your bedroom door and called 911. This stranger had to break through two doors, and then you defended your family. You didn’t chase your attacker.

The police and DA were ridiculous to take half a year to figure this one out, but this is why you need self-defense insurance.

Rob- Tell me more about self-defense insurance.

Heather- Some District Attorneys will pile on charges and expect you to take a plea deal even if you acted within the law. They will be more honest in their legal charges if you have a strong legal defense. Having pre-paid legal insurance means you’ll have an experienced lawyer from day one. The prosecutor sees that and has to act more reasonably against you. That starts with setting a reasonable bail and asking to see reasonable evidence for the charges against you.

Rob- It sounds like the prosecutors are not out for the truth, but to abuse you if you can’t put up a strong legal defense.

Heather- Yes, some are, so plan for that, and have insurance so you can afford a legal defense.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like us to do?

Heather- The story didn’t mention it, but I want you to have a safety plan. Exercise that plan. See what works and what are the weak points. I’d like both of you to be armed and both of you to practice calling 911.

Rob- When do you tell your students about a safety plan?

Heather- During their Concealed Handgun course is when we first discuss building a plan and how important it is to have some pre programmed responses that we have rehearsed and feel really comfortable with.

Heather- Our fourth story took place in York, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work? The evening rush has slowed a little. You’ll close your restaurant in a few minutes. You are moving between the back room and the counter when a man comes into your restaurant. He talks to the clerk at the cash register and the clerk puts her hands up. You hear the stranger tell her to put her hands down and give him the money. You see the robber’s gun pointed at your employee.

You own a firearm. You are carrying concealed tonight. The news story doesn’t say how, but you shoot your attacker. The clerk steps back and you tell her to call 911 while you keep your gun pointed at the attacker on the floor.

Police arrive a few minutes later. You put your gun away. Emergency Medical Services declare your attacker dead at the scene. You give a statement to the police.

Heather- Our defender recognized that his staff needed an armed defense. He found a gun that fit him. He carried it concealed at work. He recognized an immediate threat to an innocent person. He used lethal force to stop an immediate, unavoidable and lethal threat to an innocent person. He stopped shooting when the threat stopped. He had someone call 911 and summon the police and EMS. He gave a brief statement to the police.

Rob- That is so much to get right. Is there anything else you’d like us to do if we faced a similar situation?

Heather- I want you to have a security plan at home and at work. I want you to walk through that plan. As soon as you do that, you’ll discover that you want many armed defenders. You also want your carry permit. You’ll discover you want your carry permit during your… Try it for yourself and you’ll see. I also want you to have a security video system. Video is a strong factor in your legal defense.

Rob- Why is it important to walk through our plan?

Heather- I want many of the staff armed so the cash register is defended even when you are in the kitchen talking to the cooks. I want you defended if you’re at the cash register and the thieves try to enter the kitchen at closing time when the staff cleans up and takes out the trash. I want several armed defenders so you can stop several robbers. Now I want you to call your lawyer and start your legal defense.

Rob- Business owners are busy running their business. Where should they learn all that?

Heather- Start small, make sure that you’ve got solid fire, severe weather, and lockdown procedures. Make sure that your employees are clear on what to do when a customer needs to be escorted from the premises. If you are an employee and you aren’t sure what to do in those situations, then start asking questions.

As far as designing and executing the specific plans that we’ve been talking about, find some safety and defensive skills courses that you can take and get started. There are some great resources to get your mental aerobics going on youtube and throughout the internet.

My students say that sometimes it’s just empowering the employees. Tell them permission to think about safety in a productive way. If you do not have the skills, then start bringing in area professionals to give them tools.

Rob- Other than the Armed Citizen Stories on Ammoland, that is what I’d do.

Exit- Rob- Heather, that wraps up this episode. Thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Heather- Find me at my gun store website Tactical Advantage Guns. I have additional classes listed at A-girl-and-a-gun shooting league at the Portage, Michigan chapter.

Rob- After you look at Heather’s articles and at her class schedule, then please leave her a message on the podcast webpage.

Heather- We share this podcast with you for free, but we ask you to

share the podcast with a friend, and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 262 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool. What have you been doing, Amanda?

Firearms instructor Amanda Suffecool Amanda- Hi, Rob. I’ve been traveling, planning and signing up for training for the year 2022. Yes – Instructors who are worth their salt keep training with even better instructors. I try to do one or two classes a year.

How about you?

Rob- I was on the Daily Bullet podcast for the Second Amendment Foundation, and on the Arms Room Radio broadcast out of Orlando, Florida.

Robbie wished us Merry Christmas, and Vic asked about our music which is Fanfare for the Common Man. Thank you both, and glad to help. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Give us a rating and let new gun owners know why you listen.

Our first story took place last week in Tampa, Florida.

Rob- First story- Are you armed in public? You’re getting some exercise on a walking trail. Several teenagers run by you, then they turn. One of them tells you to give it up. Another draws a gun and threatens you. You’re being robbed. You have your carry license in your wallet. You also have your legally purchased firearm on your hip.

The news article doesn’t say what happened next, but you shot your armed attacker, and you were shot. You run to get help. The police received calls about the gunshots. They find you and call emergency medical services. They transport you to the hospital. You give a statement to the police. You show them your carry permit. Police find your attacker dead on the park trail. You are not charged with a crime.

Rob- What did our defender do to save his life?

Amanda-

Recognized that he was at risk.

Bought a gun

Got his permit

Learned how to carry.

Carried on body in public in the middle of the day on a walk.

Recognized an lethal, immediate, and unavoidable threat

Defended himself

Moved to safety

Gave a statement to the police

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like us to do?

Amanda- Let’s talk about the problems that the story didn’t mention.

Your wallet identifies you as having a concealed carry permit.

To the robbers, your gun on your body means you might have a security job or be a police officer. That puts you at an increased danger of being murdered.

If you don’t see them coming, then you start from behind when they already have a gun in their hands and the gun is pointed at you.

Distraction, movement, presentation. Use them as a shield.

Rob- Do you see anything else in this story?

Amanda- The first person to call the police gets to be called the victim. You want to win the race to 911 because the bad guys might lie. If you lost your cell phone, then shout for help in the middle of the street.

The other thing to consider is GEAR. Good gear makes carrying comfortable. Bad gear makes carrying a PITA, and then you are more likely to leave it at home. Spend the time and the money to research and buy gear that matches your lifestyle.

Rob- What else do you see?

Amanda- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive? You drive for Lyft. You are carrying a passenger in the middle of the afternoon when a car runs into you. You pull to the side of the road, and the car runs into you again. You get out of your car. The passenger of the car that hit you points a shotgun at you. You’re armed too. You have your concealed carry permit. You get the passenger out of your car and away from the robbery. You duck behind your car and draw your handgun. Your attacker shoots at you and you shoot back. You retreat. The robber dives into your car and drives away. The car behind them tries to run you over. You shoot that driver, and he drives away too. You get out of the road and call the police. You’re shaken, but not hurt.

Police find your two wounded attackers nearby. Both of your attackers are taken to the hospital. Both had firearms in their cars. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- Dangerous job that does not allow CCW. Driver had his permit, and chose to follow the law, not the employment contract. Being armed in public could keep him alive, but may get him fired.

He recognized the threat once he was hit the second time, moved to defend himself and his passenger. Recognized second threat. Moved to safety.

Rob- That is a lot. Is there anything else we should do in a case like this one?

Amanda- This is a really complex environment. We need to identify the clearest path to safety. Is it in the car or out? Then we want to move to cover and we want to move so we don’t get shot, but It isn’t obvious where we should go. We don’t want to move into traffic and get hit by a moving car.

Rob- Let’s back up. Walk me through all the steps that this defender went through.

Amanda- Firearms safety and training. Concealed carry so that it is concealed at all times. Presentation when the situation calls for it. Legal use of lethal force. Presentation on the move using cover and concealment, while ushering someone else to safety. Engaging multiple targets. What to say to the police.

Rob- That sounds impossible to get right.

Amanda- No, that sound easy to get right, because we take it step at a time. You didn’t learn to drive in the snow until you had some practice parking. We learn self-defense as a series of steps or building blocks.

Rob- And like physical conditioning, we have to go back and exercise those building blocks. What does that exercise look like?

Amanda- We’ll talk about that in our next story that happened in Augusta, Georgia.

Rob- First this message from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

https://crimeresearch.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed in public? You get a call from your adult son. It is after midnight when he chased a stranger out of your home. He is still concerned and your son knows you’re armed. You tell him to stay outside and you’ll be home in a minute. You meet him in the driveway, and the two of you search downstairs. You don’t see anyone, but you hear sounds. When you reach your upstairs bedroom you find a stranger standing in your room. You raise your firearm and shoot him. He jumps out the bedroom window.

You and your son call the police and stay inside your home. You holster your gun and show the officer what happened. They find a cap and a bloody shirt in your backyard. You are not charged with a crime.

Amanda- Gun owner. Has a Permit and carried that night. The key to this story is that she asked her son to stay outside. Recognized that if there was one, there may be more.

Rob- What would you like us to do if we were in a similar situation.

Amanda- First, lock your doors so the bad guys have to break into your home. Make them work for it. Next, call the police. I wouldn’t advise doing the clearing drill yourself as this mother son team did. The second call, once you hang up from your son, should have been to the police.

Rob- If we have a gun, why do you want us to call the police?

Amanda- You can answer that yourself. Do you know if there are strangers in your home? Have you ever played hide and go seek. Remember hiding – real still – and watching the other person move around looking for you? That is what happens when YOU are trying to clear an area. You are not trained like the police are for this. Let them look for someone who should not be there.

As an instructor, I want to train your actions so you don’t walk around a corner and find four men with guns pointed at you in the dark and you get shot and die in front of your children. Yes, protect your family, but leave the exploration to the cops. Let the police bring lots of men and equipment and dogs, and let them do the discovery for you.Rob- Avoid getting killed.

Amanda- Exactly. Understand the law so you know when you may defend yourself, when you may not, when you should let the police do the work for you, the work they constantly train to do.

Rob- We want to train our hands, and our mind so we understand our options.

Amanda- We’ll talk about that in our last story that took place near Los Angeles, California.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work? and https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2022/01/03/armed-citizen-ca-n54003

And https://www.dailybulletin.com/2022/01/01/four-arrested-in-attempted-upland-smash-and-grab-jewelry-store-robbery/

It is a few days after Christmas. You have customers in your jewelry store. It is the middle of the afternoon when four young men come inside. They are all wearing masks and hoodies. One of them starts spraying the customers and staff with something, and the victims double over, cover their faces and start coughing. You’re being robbed. You’re armed. You step back and draw your firearm. The robbers see your gun pointed at them and they head for the door. You don’t shoot. You holster your weapon when they leave. You check on your staff and your customers, and then you call 911.

The story doesn’t mention a video camera, but the police were able to identify the robbers. They arrested four of the five robbers, and three of them had outstanding warrants. They sprayed your customers with bear spray.

You’re not charged with a crime.

Amanda- Purchased a gun in California, went through those hoops.

Planned, trained and prepared to be armed at work

Sounds like the gun was carried on his body

He presented his firearm and that ended the robbery. That is what usually happens. He recognized that the criminals were running so he didn’t shoot them. He checked on the victims, then he called the police and gave them a statement.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like us to do?

Amanda- This store owner was able to get his carry permit because of the county where he lived. The story doesn’t mention if he had a permit, and I want him to have one. I want all his employees to have their carry permits too. I want them to carry at work, carry as they travel to and from work, and carry at home. That is so we stop depending on luck to save us.

What if the store owner were on the phone when his customers were attacked? If you think you’re the designated defender, then what happens when you go to lunch or to the bathroom? What if you’re carrying out the trash so you’re out the back of the store at that moment the bad guys walk in the front door? Depending on luck isn’t a defense plan. Also, you want you to have a permit so the police know you have a clean criminal record.

Rob- Four men broke into my store and sprayed my customers and staff. Was that a lethal threat?

Amanda- It could be. They blind you and hurt you with bear spray. They make it so you can’t defend yourself. They have four of you against a single defender. You are justified to use lethal force in defense of yourself and other innocent parties. AND you don’t know what they are spraying you with, or what they intend to do with you once you are incapacitated.

Statistics say you are not likely to survive if an armed intruder moves you to another location by gun point. Though I have to say – to find those statistics I read some concerning info on kidnapping, hostages and government based advice. Bad, untrue but interesting. Funny how some political ( read that anti gun) agendas fit into educational propaganda material.

Rob- That matches what I heard in my training. Don’t let them move you.

Exit- Rob- that wraps up this episode. Amanda, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Amanda- My nationally syndicated radio show, eye on the target radio, is on Sunday nights from 5 to 7 eastern time. I instruct on the weekends in Northeastern Ohio. I’m part of the DCProject that you can find at DCProject.info and now am on TV on the OpsLens channel with both EOTT and Women for Gun Rights on Fridays at 7 pm eastern.

Rob- After you watch Amanda’s TV shows and subscribe to her podcasts, then please leave her a message on the podcast webpage.

Amanda- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 261 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you are still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Robyn Sandoval. How have you been, Robyn?

Robyn- Hi, Rob. I’ve been going back and taking more self-defense training because there is so much to learn. And I’ve been teaching because so many people want to learn about armed defense.

How about you?

Rob- We received two new ratings and a new comment on iTunes (is 268 152). A listener who calls himself Shadowsdoc said we were his favorite podcast. He likes our style and what he learns from each episode. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts and let us know why you listen.

Robyn- US citizens defend themselves with a firearm thousands of times every day. We look at recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Abbottstown, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home? You are sitting in your living room with our wife on a weekday morning. A stranger opens your door and walks in. He is naked from the waist down. You tell him to leave and he attacks you. He punches you again and again. You shout for your wife to get your gun. She goes to the bedroom and the intruder follows her. You follow them both. The intruder attacks your wife in the bedroom. You grab your revolver and shoot the attacker until he stops attacking your wife. She’s badly hurt. You call 911 and beg for help. Police are already in the area because your neighbors reported the intruder trying to get into other homes.

Emergency medical services declare your attacker dead at the scene. Your wife is in critical condition so they fly her to the hospital by helicopter. They take you to the hospital by ambulance. You give the police a statement at the hospital. You are both in your late 70s, and your wife was too badly injured to talk to the police.

Robyn- The couple had a firearm accessible. They worked together. They fired until the threat was stopped. They called 911.

Rob- What would you like us to do on a morning like this.

Robyn- The most obvious change that could have been made would have been to have locked their doors. This intruder tried multiple homes until he found an unlocked door. Their house may have been skipped with that one simple change. Fortifying the exterior of your home may also include a doorbell camera with motion alarms that can alert you to someone walking up to your front door.

Rob- What else do you see?

Robyn- Another option may have been to have better team language that didn’t let the intruder know that one of them was going to retrieve a firearm. They could have had a code word to use so that they both could spring into action – her retrieving the firearm and him trying verbal de-escalation techniques.

Walking through a defensive plan together as a family is a good way to get everyone on the same page before a dangerous incident like this one.

Rob- When do your students learn about defending their home?

Robyn- I would consider home defense an advanced skill because it includes a lot of variables. Everyone’s home is different and everyone’s family’s needs are different. A person has to evaluate what they can do, what they should do, and what they must do, for example if they can exit or retreat to a secured room or if they must advance because of children or other loved ones in the home.

Rob- How do I practice home defense?

Robyn- Take a class that introduces you defensive skills with someone at a very close distance. Some ranges offer this kind of training with airsoft shoot houses, so you can learn some of the techniques of shooting and working behind cover. You can also work with an instructor on factors, such as caliber, platform, low light, concealment, and others. It encompasses a lot more than we can address here because there is so much to consider.

Rob- Anything else?

Robyn- Let’s save some for later. Our second story happened in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work? You’re working behind the counter at a discount store and the next customer walks up to the counter. He tells you to open the register and give him the money. You think he is joking until he reaches for his waist and you think he has a gun. You own a gun too. You are carrying concealed today. You present your firearm and shoot your armed attacker. He runs from the store. You call the police.

Police check on video cameras in the area. Officers arrive at your attacker’s house. He fights with officers and a police dog bites him. Now he is taken to the hospital for treatment of the dog bite on his arm and for treatment of a gunshot wound to his leg.

Your attacker is charged with robbery, assault, and resisting arrest. He is also arrested on an outstanding warrant for simple assault. You are not charged with a crime.

Robyn- In this situation, the defender took personal responsibility for his safety even though he was at work. He recognized an immediate, lethal, and unavoidable threat. He stopped the threat and then stopped shooting. He called the police and gave a statement.

Rob- What else would you like us to do in a situation like this?

Robyn- The news article says “workers at the store… fired multiple shots at the robber” so it sounds like more than one defender was involved. This is another example of having team training with a co-worker, good friend, or spouse can help people work efficiently together. Hopefully there was an emergency plan that the employees practiced beforehand. Security video, if available, will show how the well plan worked and provide additional information for investigators.

After the attacker ran from the store, employees should lock the door, ask if anyone is injured, call 911.

Rob- The story doesn’t mention the police finding a gun. Am I in trouble if the attacker says he has a gun, but he lied to me?

Robyn- If the totality of the information you had led you to a reasonable conclusion that the person was making furtive movement to a gun and your life was in imminent danger, then you are acting lawfully regardless of the presence of a lethal tool.

Rob- That is important. When do your students learn about the legal use of lethal force?

Robyn- In their concealed carry class.

Rob- When do your students learn to draw from concealment?

Robyn- With new shooters, we focus on the basics of marksmanship and honing skills for stance, grip, sight picture, and trigger control. We also focus on pistol manipulation, magazine changes, and managing malfunctions. Then the next step may be holster draw techniques, both from an outside holster and from concealment, depending on that person’s goals and carry preferences.

Rob- How should we practice armed defense at work?

Robyn- It’s important to review your company’s HR handbook before you carry at work. While it is lawful to carry in some places, it would be a violation of company policies and may put your employment at risk. Some people argue that saving your own life, and possibly other’s lives is the greater good; however, losing a job that provides income and healthcare for your family, a career you’ve dedicated your life to, and your professional reputation is a lot to put on the line. Be sure that you have weighed all of the factors when making your decision, with careful consideration of the applicable laws and company policies. Perhaps consider if that company is right for you prior to working there so that your ability to protect yourself is never compromised.

Our third story happened in Chicago, Illinois.

Rob- First this message from the Buckeye Firearms Foundation.

https://fastersaveslives.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed as you drive? You and your wife are driving home. An SUV pulls in front of you and forces you to the curb. Several armed men get out of the SUV and order you out of your car. You and your wife get out. They take your keys. You tell your wife to run. One of the robbers points his gun at her and you present your firearm and shoot at him. Now he dives into the SUV and drives away. You’re both shaken, but not hurt. You call 911.

You’re lucky you still have your wallet. You show the police your Illinois Firearms owners identification card and your firearms registration. Your wife is the majority leader of the Democrat controlled Illinois Senate.

Robyn- These individuals recognized that they wanted to have the means to protect themselves, and they went through the many steps necessary to carry in public in Illinois. The defender stopped shooting when the bad guy got in the car and drove away. He called and gave a report to the police.

Rob- He is lucky he had his cellphone after the robbery. Is there anything else you’d like us to do?

Robyn- The gun may have been stored in the car rather than on body, so it’s fortunate that he had it with him. Perhaps she should have also had her permit and been carrying on-body. If they had trained together, then they would have had a significant advantage over their attackers.

Rob- Two armed defenders would have had an advantage over several armed robbers?

Robyn- Because they had a plan, were trained, and they practiced.

Rob- Where would couples go to learn to work together as they defend each other?

Robyn- There are team classes available at some ranges and many instructors can also offer this in a private lesson. Look for a course description that includes team tactics, cooperative movement, and communication techniques.

Rob- How hard is that to learn?

Robyn- A good instructor will effectively present the material so that her students understand it. To learn any self-defense skill, the student needs to have an open mind and willingness to practice. Repetition and training is critical for learning any new skill. Firearms training is never a one-and-done situation. A good student will continuously practice, either dry fire or life fire, and take additional classes over time.

Rob- What else do you see?

Robyn- If it was possible, I wonder if the couple had to get out of the car. Could they have turned, even going up on a curb, to get away? Could they have recognized that they were being targeted and driven to a location that would have been populated to deter the criminals? There is a lot to unpack if we knew more.

Robyn- Our fourth story took place in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you go get groceries? You look up when you hear shouts. You’re walking across the grocery store parking lot. You see a car with the driver’s side door open and the car is in motion. The driver runs over someone. A woman is also hanging out of the car and is being dragged across the parking lot. Someone is in the driver’s seat. You present your firearm and point it at the driver. He stops and runs to a waiting SUV. You holster your gun and check on the victims. All of you call 911 to report what you saw.

You give a statement to the police when they arrive. EMS takes the female driver and the injured bystander to the hospital. Police find the three teenagers who were on a carjacking spree. Combined, they are charged with seven counts of aggravated robbery.

The surge in carjackings started after the local DA said he won’t charge people for vehicle theft.

Tag- No Shots Fired

Robyn- The defender was aware of his surroundings as he was walking across a parking lot. He had a carry permit and was armed. He took action to stop the threat, but recognized that he did not have to fire.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like us to do if we were in a similar situation?

Robyn- You need to be your own first responder because depending on a stranger to save you is depending on luck. If the woman was armed, she could have possibly taken action to defend herself. Also, take some hand to hand skills courses so you can fight your way out of your car. It’s important as the defender to be mindful of a situation that you don’t HAVE to be involved in. Legally, ethically, and morally, evaluate if you’re willing to get potentially run over or attacked for getting involved in someone else’s situation.

Rob- I know you’ve done that. I thought of you when I saw this story. If your child were in the car you wanted to be able to do more than beg a carjacker to stop.

Robyn- Obviously that would be a worst-case scenario. When walking through a parking lot with my children, I’m on high alert. I’m scanning our perimeter, I’m watching around my vehicle to ensure no one is standing near it, there aren’t any cars or vans or big trucks blocking my view of the entire area of my car. My children also know to hop in quickly, and I lock the doors when we get inside. Every time. Just locking the doors can protect you, give you time, give you the chance to get away.

Rob- Where can I learn to present my firearm from inside my car?

Robyn- Again, close quarters defense classes are helpful as well as vehicle defense classes that teach holster draw, ready positions (such as temple index) and pistol presentation techniques when you’re pinned in a car, with someone you love potentially very close to you.

Rob- You have instructors across the country. They guide students through getting their permit, don’t they.

Robyn- Ask your local instructors about getting a permit.

Exit- Rob- Robyn Sandoval, that wraps up this episode. Thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Robyn- If you’re an experienced gun owner, or simply interested in self-defense, then look for me at A Girl and a Gun dot org, and at and A Girl & A Gun on all of the social media pages.

Rob- Please look at Robyn articles and at their classes, then please leave her a message on the episode webpage.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 260 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you are still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Tony Simon. How have you been, Tony?

Tony Simon Tony- Hi, Rob. I’ve been putting together classes for 2022. I also took some training so I stay up to date and sharp. How about you?

Rob- I’ve been good. A new student is doing well. We also received four new ratings and four new comments on iTunes (is 266 151)

-Luke said he enjoys the show, but wishes it didn’t sound so scripted.

I agree. I have the advantage of being in front of a microphone about 4 times a week. Some of my instructors may only join me once in two months, so I need a format that is comfortable for them. I can try harder to bring them forward in the show.

-Rona said this is the first podcast she’s listened to. She likes that we give examples and then give suggestions. She also likes that we have several instructors on the show. She is an NRA instructor and is involved with both A Girl and a Gun as well as with a chapter of A Well Armed Woman.

Welcome Rona. If we do a great job then maybe you’ll share the podcast with your students.

-HogWyld shares the podcast with his wife and kids.

That is high praise if you’d introduce us to your family.

-Aaron is from the Evolution Security Podcast and he has been listening for years. He appreciates our co-hosts, and likes our incremental approach so that a long term listener is better prepared.

Thank you, sir. Please let us know if there is some way we can serve you and your students.

-Robbie left us a message on the podcast webpage. He liked that one of the defenders dropped his keys to create a distraction as he defended himself.

I like that too.

Tony- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times every day. We look at a few recent examples and see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Garden Grove, California.

Rob- First story- Are you armed at home during the day? It is 11 in the morning on a weekday. You hear a crashing sound and the house seems to shake. Then you hear someone walking through the house and heading up the stairs. You’re a gun owner. You grab your gun and walk to the top of the stairs. You shout for the intruder to stop, but he keeps coming. You shoot until he stops, and then you stop shooting. You and your girlfriend call 911 and ask for help. Police are already on the way because your neighbors called to report the sound of gunfire.

Police identify your intruder as your girlfriend’s ex boyfriend. She has a restraining order against him. He broke into your house a week ago and stabbed you. This time, neither you nor your girlfriend are injured. You’re not charged with a crime.

Tony- Locked doors give you time. Time gives you options. The time you have can allow you to implement your defensive plan, if you have one.

The news stories don’t explain how the ex-boyfriend entered this time. This time our defender had a gun. He recognized an immediate threat. The defender was at the top of the stairs so he was in an excellent place to defend everyone upstairs. He shot as the attacker advanced and stopped shooting when the attacker stopped advancing. He called 911 and got the police on the way. He stayed at the scene and gave a statement to the police. There was a restraining order that told the attacker not to contact the ex-girlfriend. The attacker wasn’t supposed to be within 500 feet of the place. But wait, there’s more.

Rob- There sure is. What would you like us to do that isn’t mentioned in the news story?

Tony- This happened in the middle of the day. I want everyone to wear their firearm on their body. Everyone, because the designated defender could be upstairs in the bath while you are downstairs, and that means you have to fight the attacker with your bare hands. I want you to carry on-body because you might be downstairs while you left your gun upstairs next to your bed.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Tony- The restraining order made it easier for the police to figure out what happened, to understand who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. It will cost you nothing to get a restraining order. It will cost you tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees if you are arrested because the police didn’t have proof(like a restraining order) stating the ex-boyfriend wasn’t allowed to be near his ex. And now you need a lawyer after the self-defense shooting. If you don’t have that cash on hand, then please buy self-defense insurance, and take out a restraining order if you can.

You buy insurance for your car and your house. Buy it to defend you in court.

Rob- I shouldn’t have to defend myself in court.

Tony- Maybe, I’m talking about how the system works, not how you wish it worked. You’ll sit in jail until you post bond if you don’t have self defense insurance. You want someone to call, and you don’t want to depend on your buddy to find you a lawyer at midnight.

Rob- Anything else?

Tony- I’d like you to have an outside alarm system that tells you to pay attention because someone is outside. Other than that, let’s go to our next story from Houston, Texas.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at home at night? It is 10 at night when you hear the sound of breaking glass. You see your ex- boyfriend walk into your apartment through a shattered sliding glass door. He chases you. You present your firearm and shoot him three times. Now he turns and runs back outside. You stop shooting. You stay inside and call 911.

Your neighbors report a stranger lying in their yard. Police arrest your ex-boyfriend and Emergency Medical Services take him to the hospital. Officers say he will be arrested and taken to jail when he’s released from the hospital. You are not charged.

Tony- Again, I’m loving that her doors were locked. The attacker picked up a piece of the patio and used that to break the back entry. I think it was a sliding-glass door.

The defender retreated and then shot her attacker when he advanced on her. This was a two story house and the attacker broke through at the ground level. Defending yourself from the top of the stairs is really smart. She stayed inside and called for help, so she let the police find the bad guy.

Rob- You’ve had students who had a problem with a domestic-partner. What do you want them to do in a situation like this one?

Tony- The way these two stories read is that the guy who was attacked at 10 in the morning wasn’t carrying his gun, but the woman who was attacked at 10 at night was carrying. Don’t you people have to get up and go to work in the morning? I want you to carry. I want you to get that protective order, or order of domestic protection, or restraining order. I’d like it if she filled a restraining order. The ex-boyfriend would definitely be charged with violating the restraining order. This news story reads that he may be charged with breaking into the house.

Also get security cameras for inside and outside your house. The cost of these devices are low and their quality is high compared to 10 and 20 years ago. That way you can show the police what happened.

Rob- I know that evidence like the broken door, like the security video, has to be given to the police immediately after the attack so they know who had the video from the time of the attack until it is delivered to a judge in court. When would your students learn about that?

Tony- Students should learn about things like security cameras, high security locks and layered security in our Home Hardening class.

Rob- You had to shoot an attacker in your home. What do we tell the police when they arrive?

Tony- Let’s start with the 911 call.

My name and address is… I’ve had to defend myself against an attack. Send police and emergency medical personnel.

Call your lawyer that is provided by your self defense insurance. Follow their advice.

If you don’t have any insurance or a lawyer, then describe the events in the simplest, most straightforward way possible using a minimum of words. Then tell the police that you’re going to retain an attorney.

Our third story happened Greensboro, North Carolina.

Rob- First this message from Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership. http://jpfo.org/ Rob- Third story- Are you armed at work? You’re working behind the counter at a smoke shop at 8 in the evening. Three young men come into the store, but one of them has a gun in his hands and he points his gun at you. You step into the back room. You keep your gun back there. The robbers have cleaned out the cash register, and the robber points his gun at you as you look through the doorway. You shoot your armed attacker. Now your robbers run away. You call 911.

Police find one of your robbers outside. It isn’t clear from the news accounts if the robber died at the scene, or later at a hospital. The other two robbers face charges of aggravated robbery and felony murder. The dead robber was 17 years old.

You recognize the three robbers since they were in your store an hour earlier.

Tony- Things that our defender did correctly.

He had a firearm at his job.
He was able to see the threat in time to get to his firearm.
Had the skills to hit the threat
Stopped shooting when the threat was over
Called the police

Again, security cameras are inexpensive and should be a part of a business’s security plan.

There should have been a security video.

Rob- You want us to have the gun on us.

Tony- I do. Your safety and security is your responsibility. Not the store owner, store manager or the person closest to the store’s gun kept by the safe in the back room.

I understand having the gun next to the safe in the back room, but I’m not a fan of the plan that says, You come get me and I’ll protect you, because that supposes that the person won’t be injured before you defend them.

Rob- What else do you see here?

Tony-Again, security cameras are inexpensive and should be a part of a business’s security plan.

I know it’s hard to believe but… They could lie to the police about what really happened. It’s not unusual for bad guys to claim to be innocent victims.

I know. Shocking.

Without video evidence you have your version of events and three of them will have another version.

Also, I want you to call your lawyer.

Rob- This defender needed a lawyer?

Tony- Oh, yeah. It’s a defensive firearm use, you want a lawyer to help tell your story so it’s correct from the start without mistakes due to you being nervous, misremembering or being confused.

Without the video you need to be able to tell the facts to the police. Bad guys can say that you were the attacker, that you shot at them as they were running away.

Rob- When do you talk to your students about working through the aftermath of an attack?

Tony- I have hosted classes that cover home defense and reporting to the police. It’s important for an armed defender to get as much education as possible on all aspects of defensive firearms use.

Tony- Our fourth story took place in Lawrence, Indiana.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed in public? You work in a pawn shop. You step out of the shop to run an errand at four in the afternoon. That is when three people approach you. They are armed. They tell you to give them everything you have. You are carrying a concealed firearm. You present your gun and shoot your attackers. They shoot back as they run away. The news report doesn’t mention if you stayed in the parking lot or if you went back inside the building to call 911.

Your robbers crashed their car a short distance away. They left their wounded accomplice in the car. EMS takes your wounded attacker to the hospital. He is 14 years old. Police are looking for his two accomplices.

Tony- You know why these guys attacked someone who was leaving a pawn shop?

Rob- Maybe.

Tony- People walk into a pawn shop with valuable articles and they walk out with cash. These thieves wanted the money. That is why pawn shop employees are usually armed at work.

I like that the employee was carrying on-body. How you carry is more important than what you carry. We’d laugh at someone who took a minute to draw from a holster, but we make excuses for ourselves if we need a minute to run and get our gun. Please be realistic about your defense.

Take defensive firearm training

Take a class on situational awareness

Come up with a good defensive plan. I know you have to start from where you are, so do what you can, and then improve that one step at a time. Maybe you can only carry when you’re at work or at home to start.

Our defender recognized a threat and defended himself. If you can, I want you to stay at the scene of the crime and call the police from there. Then I want you to call your lawyer.

Rob- Talk to me about self-defense in a parking lot facing three attackers.

Tony- The reason I suggest learning about situational awareness is the quicker you can see a problem coming the more options you have available. Seeing three people coming at you, one of them armed, allows you to implement the plan, deploy your firearm, move to put distance and hard objects between you and the bad guys and shoot them if necessary.

Rob- We took your advice and we had a plan. We defended ourself and the bad guy ran away. What do we tell the police, and when do we call our lawyer?

Tony- Move to safety as quickly as possible, then call the police. Report the attack and immediately call your lawyer.

You want to be the first to tell your story to authorities. The first person that police speak to is going to be designated as the victim.

Rob- When do your students learn about that?

Tony- They learn these in our Home Hardening class that I teach or Home Defender Handgun Tactics class that I host.

Rob- Your students learned to present their firearm. How often do they need to practice, and how often would you like them to practice their presentation?

Tony- I would like them to dry practice 15 minutes a day for the first month after they take our class. Then once or twice a week after that to maintain the skill.

Exit- Rob- Tony, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Tony- Find me at Diversityshoot.com I’m also on Instagram and facebook at Simon Says Train and at The 2nd is For Everyone podcast.

Rob- After you subscribe to Tony’s podcast and look at his training schedule, then tell Tony how handsome he looks on the self-defense podcast webpage.

Tony- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Amanda, Ben, Heather, Dave, Candy, Tony, Robyn, Michael

Apple categories- News commentary, Self-improvement

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 259 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor David Cole. How have you been, Dave?

David Cole Dave- Hi, Rob. I’ve been hunting and started Aikido again, and I hurt myself. How about you?

Rob- I was on news programs with Dan Wos, with Tom Gresham, and with Cheryl Todd. That left me too busy to get into much trouble.

We had a few weeks when no one talked to us, and last week the dam broke. Carl commented on social media that he listens to the podcast every week and really appreciates the information. I was on a podcast for the Second Amendment Foundation, and Diane typed in a live comment that she listens to this podcast too. Robbie wrote in after the last episode where we commented on a robbery at a mall. He wants his wife to carry as she goes shopping during the holidays.

We received four new ratings and two new comments on iTunes. (is 262, 147). Joey said he carries all the time and has been listening for the last year. The episodes bring him ideas that seem out of the box compared to the training he’s had so far. A listener called BDE said he likes that we talk about avoiding a fight as the best defense. He listens with his wife and they discuss how they might react if these situations happened to them. He also sends the stories to his friends who think armed defense never happens. Pastor Mel sent a link to a self-defense story.

Christmas came early for me with those wonderful messages. If you would like to leave a rating or comment about the podcast, then please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe. Let other people know why you listen.

Dave- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We will look at a few recent examples to see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles are on the podcast webpage.

Our first story took place in Compton, CA.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you walk to your car? You walk to your car on the way to work. It is 6:15 when you open your car door. That is when a middle aged hispanic man runs up and grabs you. He has a knife in his hand and he tells you to step away from your car and give him your keys. You’re armed. You drop your keys, and step to the side. You present your concealed firearm and shoot your attacker several times. Now he stumbles back and drops his knife. You stop shooting. The news story doesn’t say if you called 911 from your driveway or if you went back inside your home to call for help.

Police find your attacker in the driveway. EMS declares your attacker dead at the scene from three gunshot wounds in the upper chest. You give a statement to the police. Police take your gun and your attacker’s knife as evidence. You are not charged with a crime.

Dave- Lots of us recognize Compton as one of the high-crime areas in the Los Angeles area. What we might not know is that California has more gun owners than any other state. Tens of millions of California residents live in counties where they can apply for a carry permit. That permit is valid as they travel all over California.

Though they didn’t mention it, this gun owner must have had a permit or the LA police would have arrested him for carrying a firearm illegally. He might be a businessman who doesn’t want to advertise that he carries. My message is to get your permit if you can, and lots of us can.

Our defender decided he and his family were worth protecting.

Recognized that he was at risk because of where he lived, and probably because of what he did.

He found a gun that fit him and that he could carry concealed. He chewed his way through the California red tape.

He bought the gun and got his permit.

40% of attacks, and of defenses, happen near our home. That is why our defender carried on an ordinary day, in an ordinary week, in an extraordinary time. That saved his life.

Recognized that a knife was a lethal threat.

Shot, then stopped shooting
Called
Stayed
Statement
Wonder if he had a lawyer to call. I’d want one if I was visiting LA.

Rob- It might come in their first class or it could come later. When do students focus on learning to present their firearm from a concealed holster?

Dave- Step by step. I’m tempted to say layer of clothing at a time. Open carry during presentation training. Concealed comes later.

Rob- What else do you see?

Dave- Situational awareness in transition zones such as parking lots and driveways. Attacker with a knife needs to close distance, and early awareness can be a lifesaver. It likely was in this case.

Rob- Anything else?

Dave- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- Second Story- Do you have a firearm nearby at work? You are helping your parents at their pizza shop. It is 9:30 on a weeknight when three strangers run into the store. One of them says he has a gun while another reaches over the counter and grabs money from the cash register. Your mom grabs his hands to stop him. That is when the stranger grabs your mom’s throat and starts shaking her and strangling her. She tries to yell for help. You grab the gun under the checkout counter. You raise the gun toward the attacker’s head and press the trigger. The attacker lets go of your mom. Now she can breathe. You stop shooting and all three attackers run away. Your parents call 911 and ask for help for your mom. Police arrive a few minutes later since your attackers robbed a store down the block only a minute earlier. You are 14 years old.

Police follow the trail of blood until they find your attacker inside the local subway station. The police also find some of your family’s money in the robber’s pockets. He is taken to the hospital in critical condition.

Dave- This family had a gun at the cash register. The youngster recognized a threat. He saw an opportunity to save his mom. He stopped shooting when the attackers ran away. The parents gave a statement to the police. I think there was security video of the robbery too.

Fortunate that the young defender was aware of the gun and competent in its use. Kept his head and did what was necessary to stop the threat to his mother.

Rob- Are there other things you’d like your small business owners to do?

Dave- Sign that says surveyed by video.

While this situation turned out well for our defenders, it is preferable for adults to carry in a holster at waist level.

If one of you was at the far end of the counter then you’re almost invisible to the robbers. You can shoot them from the side but they are standing in front of each other so it is hard for them to shoot you.

Rob- When do you tell your students about tactics like that?

Dave- Tactics typically come in later training, but it is certainly never too early to discuss such situations. What I do like to do with students is discuss the process of visualization as training, or “wargaming” defensive scenarios. Playing the “what if” game…unlike in grade school…is actually beneficial mental training.

Rob- Where are we headed next.

Dave- Our third story happened in South Fulton, Georgia.

Rob- First this message from the Second Amendment Foundation

Second Amendment Foundation https://www.saf.org/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? If you knew then what you know now then you would have chosen a different roommate. You had to press charges for disorderly conduct and violence against your roommate. You worked through eviction proceedings and the judge ordered him to return your keys. The judge also granted you a protective order.

Your ex-roommate doesn’t use the keys when he kicks in your door the next day. You’re armed. You shoot him. Now he turns and leaves. You call the police. You show them the judges protective order. You show them security video. They arrest you for aggravated assault anyway.

It takes you more than a year to get before a judge and have the charges dropped. You almost lose your home because of your legal fees and being out of work.

Dave- We don’t know if it was before he had problems with his roommate or after, but by the time of the break in our defender owned a gun. He filed charges against his former room mate. He took out a protective order, also called a restraining order. He had a video system installed. His doors were locked. He defended himself when the former roommate broke in. He called 911 for help. He did the right things, but he was chewed up by the legal system.

Rob- Talk to me about storing a firearm in my home for defense.

Dave- Of course, it is always preferable to have your defensive firearm on your person, even at home. That said, there are times when you need to take it off and secure it, while still having quick access in case it is needed. There are any number of quick access safes, lock boxes, and other security devices available.

Rob- Anything else you want us to do?

Dave- Let’s talk about his legal fight. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that he didn’t have good legal representation initially, because this sure seems like something that could have been cleared up quickly and easily by a lawyer familiar with self defense law. There are several companies offering self-defense insurance these days who can help you get a lawyer on your side of the case right away.

Rob- I heard a phrase that there are four fights to survive. The physical one, the legal one, the financial one, and then the moral or the psychological battle. Talk to me about getting counseling after you have to shoot someone.

Dave- I’m going to save that for our next story that took place in Spanaway, Washington.

Rob- Fourth story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You hear someone trying to break in through the back of your home. That wakes you up. You grab your gun and look toward the back door. You see someone kick in your back door and enter your home. You shoot the first intruder and try to shoot the second one. Both of them run from your home. You stop shooting and stay inside. You call 911 and ask for the police.

Officers find one of your attackers on your front lawn. EMS declares him dead at the scene. Police are looking for his accomplice. It is 4:30 in the morning.

Your family is shaken but not injured. Your family carries firearms, but you never thought it would be like this when you had to use them.

Dave- His doors were locked. He recognized a threat. He got his firearm and defended his family. He stopped shooting when the bad guys turned and ran away. He stayed inside and didn’t chase the bad guys. The story is unclear, but he might have been on the phone with the police before the intruders broke in. We know he called and asked for the police after the break in. He also gave a statement to the police.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like us to do?

Dave- safety plan that includes everyone in the home.

Rob- What does best practice look like for a safety plan?

Dave- Of course, be armed. Then have plans to either escape or shelter/barricade with family members.

Rob- Why should everyone be involved?

Dave- Everyone needs to know what to do, and when.

Rob- Tell me about counseling if you have to use your firearm in self-defense.

Dave- Let’s go back to our first story of the 14 year old who saved his mom while she was being strangled. While he and his parents might have included him in the defensive plan…he knew where the gun was and how to use it…it’s unlikely they planned for the emotional aftermath. While he saved his mother’s life, he had to take another life to do that. These emotions can be pushed off, but they have insidious ways of coming back. We see a lot of alcoholism and insomnia from survivors. That takes its toll, and counseling can make it better.

This is something I do talk about with students, especially the involuntary physiological response we may experience after a critical incident. Hormones like adrenaline, endorphins, and others can have some pretty significant effects, and understanding these things can help us manage the emotional impact after an incident.

Exit- Rob- that wraps up this episode. Dave, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

David- Look for my written articles at deltabravocharlie.com

Rob- I noticed you wrote an article about “shooting to wound”. Thank you.

After you’ve gone to his website and read Dave’s articles, then leave him a message on the podcast webpage, or on social media.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories, and Merry Christmas to all.

~_~_

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 258 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. And also if you’re still learning about armed defense. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by firearms instructor Heather Reeves. How have you been, Heather?

Heather- Hi, Rob. I’ve been following the news closely. With the events in Oxford, MI and me teaching high school it has sparked a lot of conversation. It’s keeping me busy.

How about you?

Rob- I’ve been carrying every day, and teaching a friend some dry practice drills. That was fun.

This is the second week where no one left a comment or rating on iTunes or on the podcast webpage. (was 258,145). Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Your comments help new listeners find us.

Heather- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples and see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you arrive home? You have a restraining order out against your ex-boyfriend after he shot at you. Now, he says he wants to get his things from your place. You said you’ll put them on the porch. You’re worried that your ex will be there when you arrive home, and he is. You shout for him to stay away from you. “Don’t come any closer.” Your ex grabs you. You present your firearm and shoot him. Now he lets go and moves away. You call 911 and ask for help.

The news article doesn’t say how far your ex ran. You holster your firearm and give a statement to the police. Your ex is arrested for three counts of felony bail jumping, with additional assessments as a domestic abuse repeater and habitual criminality repeater.

Because of his two convictions for domestic abuse and your restraining order, your ex was not supposed to be within 500 feet of you.

You are not charged with a crime.

Heather- I love the self-awareness here. She’s dealt with this volatile domestic situation for a while and allows herself to buy into her instinct which tells her that he might show up for his stuff.

Domestic abuse happens over a hundred thousand times a year and makes up 15% of all violent crime.

Over 40 percent of armed defense happens in the area immediately outside our home, so this story is more common than we might imagine.

Restraining order. Owned a gun. Carried a gun. Alert to danger. Recognized a physical threat. Defended herself. Called for help. Stayed on the scene. Gave a statement.

Rob- Talk to me about carrying in a purse, often called off-body carry, if someone is grabbing you.

Heather- Purse carry combined with someone grabbing at you can make it more difficult for you to retrieve the firearm, and potentially it can turn the firearm from being mine, to being ours or yours. Meaning that we could more easily end up in a tussle for the gun rather than me being able to retrieve and use the gun. Every method requires training. Grabs, and potential thefts of the purse are concerns when we start talking off-body carry.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like your students to do in a case like this one?

Heather- The victim was on the phone with a friend when she was attacked. In hindsight, you want to have your friend with you. You want lots of friends. Bring lots of very large and strong friends to stand in front of you. Bring a team of weight lifters, off duty police, and wrestlers who are all open carrying really big guns. Forget subtlety.

If you have to meet with your ex, meet in the lobby of the local police department.

Rob- That is good advice. Other than being disarmed inside the police station, that sounds like a good idea. I’d call the local police and ask for suggested places to meet. When would your students learn tips like this one?

Heather- Nuggets like this are sprinkled throughout (and often repeated throughout) all of our self-defense courses. Knowing your rights, as well as tips and information to up our awareness and self-preservation game are so important to anyone looking to stay safer.

Rob- Let’s say I have an abusive ex-partner. I’ve taken out a restraining order. I’ve had counseling. I want to feel safer and I’m considering physical security. What should I do? (What classes should I take?)

Heather- Seek out a basic handgun course and get comfortable with firearms. If you can afford a private lesson with a coach/instructor you’re comfortable with even better.

In working with DV survivors, we have found that more often than not, there is trauma to overcome when handling a pistol. Whether because the survivor has had a pistol used against them, or because of preconceived notions, learning to use a firearm in general before learning the specifics of self-defense with a firearm makes for a more successful concealed handgun or other more advanced learning session! Of course, nothing is one-size fits all, find a highly qualified instructor, and have a conversation or two with them before choosing what’s best for your situation.

Rob- Anything else?

Heather- We’ll talk about presenting a firearm from a holster, but that is in our next story. We’re headed to Dallas, Texas.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed as you drive? It is 10:30 on a weeknight when you drive up to the address. You grab the pizza and carry it to the door. That is your job. You are a pizza delivery driver. Two young men run up to you. They are wearing masks. One of them has a gun pointed at you. He tells you to give him everything.

You have your Texas license to carry in your wallet. Your personal firearm is on your hip. The news article doesn’t say what you did with the pizza, but you present your firearm and shoot both of your attackers. Your armed attacker drops his gun so you stop shooting him. The other attacker runs away. You back away and call 911 for help.

You stay at the scene and holster your firearm. You call your store manager and tell her what happened. You give a brief statement to the police. They find the second robber nearby. Emergency medical services transport your robbers to the hospital. One robber was treated and released. He is arrested on charges of aggravated robbery. He faces charges of felony murder after his accomplice died in the hospital. The robbers are 15 and 17 years old.

Last week, another delivery driver in town was shot five times. You are not charged with a crime.

Heather, it seems I’m finding more stories like this one.

Heather- Lots of people are ordering food delivered to them. Lots of people lost their jobs or had their work hours cut back so they have taken delivery jobs. Half of violent crimes happen at night, but most are not on the public street like this. This event might sound unusual, but these circumstances are ordinary.

Armed. Licensed. Had a plan. Recognized a lethal, immediate and unavoidable threat. Defended himself. Stopped shooting. Stayed at the scene. Called for help.

Rob- I can’t think of much more our defender might have done.

Heather- Oh, Rob. We have to talk.

Did our defender create a diversion by throwing the pizza or his wallet in one direction, or by handing them to his attackers so their hands were filled. Did he move towards cover as he presented his firearm and shot?

He was shooting at night. Did any of his shots miss? We want him to move to safety once he thinks the threat is over, but we’d like him to be able to control the scene of the crime. Did he shout for help and ask everyone who can hear him to call 911?

If this happens to us, then we want you to call 911 yourself and stay on the call until the police arrive. Have legal defense insurance. Call your lawyer. Call your boss and say you’ll be busy for the next few days, and get some mental health counseling.

Rob- You’re right. There is a lot left to do.

Heather- So you own a gun. You want to learn how to present it efficiently. That takes time and repetitions.

Dominant hand goes to gun while it’s in the holster and established

(Talk to a new gun owner. Describe the many steps that end in presenting your firearm. We start with a basic firearms safety class.)

Rob- I don’t need to have my carry license to learn that, do I?

Heather- Much of it you don’t. Up to the point where you are actually drawing from concealment, or physically starting to conceal the gun, you are perfectly legal.

Rob- What steps do I have to take to get a carry permit in your state?

Heather- Let’s start before you buy your gun. Take a class so you’re safe when you rent guns at the shooting range. You want to shoot enough that you start to feel the difference. It is a story like goldilocks and the three bears. Some guns are too small, some are too big, and some fit you best. From there..

-Basic firearms safety/introduction
-Purchase and practice
-Learn about holsters
-Learn to draw from an open holster
-Take a Concealed Carry Class (in MI called a Concealed Pistol License)
-Learn about concealment and how to draw from concealment.

Rob- That is a great introduction.

Heather- Thank you. Our third story took place in Baxter, Kansas.

Rob- First this message from Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership.

DRGO https://drgo.us/

Rob- Third story- Are you armed at home? You and your wife are home with your kids. It is after 8 on a weekday night when someone starts banging on your door. You don’t know who it is and you don’t open the door. You tell the stranger to go away. He keeps trying to get in so you call the police. You grab your gun. You back into your bedroom with your wife and children. Your attacker breaks down your front door and then comes toward you. You shoot your attacker until he stops advancing. Now you stop shooting. Your attacker runs outside.

Police detain your attacker outside and EMS takes him to the hospital. The 911 operator says that the police are outside your home and it is safe for you to come out. You put away your gun and all of you come out. You talk to the officers. So does your wife. Detectives arrive and ask you to give a statement at the police department.

Police charge your attacker with aggravated burglary, aggravated assault, and criminal damage to property. The police take your firearm as evidence.

You’re not charged.

Heather- Locked. Called. Retreated. Defended. Stayed inside.

I bet our defender and his family had a home security plan.

Rob- What would that look like?

Heather- talk w your family. Build a plan. Walk through the plan and fix the flaws you find. Practice it. From a knock at the door to being on the phone during defense. And reinforce your door locks.

Rob- It doesn’t say if the defender was carrying inside the home.

Heather- I want both of you to carry whenever you can. What would happen if you’re doing dishes and your unarmed partner is near the door when someone tries to kick their way inside. What if “the designated defender” is in the bathroom. Let’s both carry and both of us practice.

Rob- You don’t need a state permit to carry at home.

Heather- No, but it is nice to have one. (and tell me why)

Rob- This is different from defending yourself in a parking lot.

Heather- It really is. We spend a lot of time with our family at home. We can make general plans to defend our home. For example, we can have the kids on the floor behind the bed. Your spouse is on the phone. You are behind the bed too with your gun pointed ……..

Heather- Our last story took place in Durham, North Carolina.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed at work? You are selling jewelry at a small booth in the mall. It is the Friday afternoon after Thanksgiving and there are lots of people around. Two men walk up to your display. One grabs your gold chains and the other points a gun at you. You’re being robbed.

You’re armed. You present your gun and shoot your armed attacker. He shoots back. You shoot until he drops his gun. Now you stop shooting. The unarmed robber runs away.

News reports don’t say how far your armed attacker ran. You shout for help, and two off-duty police officers who work as mall security arrive in a minute. Two people in the crowd were struck by bullet fragments that ricocheted. Emergency medical services transported them, and your attacker to the hospital. You are not injured, but your ears are ringing.

You give a statement to the police. The two bystanders are treated and released from the hospital. Your attacker is expected to survive. Police published the security video from the mall and are looking for his accomplice.

Heather- I’m not sure if this is categorized as being robbed at work, or being robbed in public, but we know crime goes up during the holidays.

Rob- What did our defender do correctly?

Heather- Armed. Stopped shooting when threat stopped.

Rob- Some instructors include presenting your firearm from the holster in the first lessons. Just because you showed it to me doesn’t mean I really know how to do it. How long does it take to become subconscious and smooth?

Heather- Automaticity is a funny thing, it usually takes thousands of reps in a variety of circumstances for us to really internalize something to that level.

Responsible for every shot we fire.

Rob- When do your students learn about the legal use of lethal force, and then learn what to say to the police when they arrive?

Heather- We cover this in our concealed handgun course because it is essential if someone is going to know how to stop a threat, they need to know when it is appropriate to use lethal force, and how to organize their thoughts for the aftermath. Your initial statement can make a difference in your defense.

It is important to put the gun away once we are safe.

Exit- Rob- That wraps up this episode. Where can we learn more about what you’re doing?

Heather- Find me at my gun store website. I have more classes listed at A-girl-and-a-gun shooting league. Look for the chapter in Portage, Michigan.

Rob- Heather has been teaching a number of self-defense classes for over a decade. If you have questions for her, then please leave her a message on the podcast webpage or on MeWe.

Heather- We share this podcast with you for free.Please share the podcast with a friend and give us a rating on I-Tunes and Stitcher.We’re also available onGoogle Podcasts, Tunein, Spotify, Podbean and on iHeart Radio.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

Amanda, Ben, Heather, Dave, Candy, Tony, Robyn, Michael

Apple categories- News commentary, Self-improvement

The post Episode 258 with Heather Reeves appeared first on Self Defense Gun Stories Podcast.

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Rob- Introduction- Welcome to episode 257 of Self-Defense Gun Stories. We’re glad you found us if you’re well trained.. and also if you’re one of the millions of new gun owners who are hearing about armed defense for the first time. I’m Rob Morse and we’re joined this week by my friend and firearms instructor Ben Branam. How have you been, Ben?

Firearms Instructor Ben Branam Ben- Hi, Rob. I’m good. I’ve been traveling and shooting having a good time for work and holidays. Training Church teams. How about you?

Rob- Like millions of other people, I was traveling over Thanksgiving. I’m glad to be home where I can carry again. I was on two radio shows, a podcast, and I wrote an article about how common, or rare, it is to find citizens carrying concealed.

We did not receive even a single ratings or comment on iTunes (was 258,145). But a listener shared a news story he liked. Thank you, Robbie. Please go to the iTunes store where you subscribe to podcasts. Leave us a rating and tell us why you listen.

Ben- Here in the US, we defend ourselves with a firearm thousands of times a day. We look at a few recent examples and see what we can learn. The links back to the original news articles on our podcast webpage.

Our first story took place last week in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Rob- First story- Are you armed as you leave home and drive at night? It is after midnight when you drop some food off at your home. It is all part of the job since you deliver food for an online food delivery service. You are getting back in your car when three young men run up to you. Two of them have guns in their hands. Your attackers tell you to hand over your money. You say the money is in the car. So they start to search your car.

You have your Pennsylvania license to carry. You’re carrying concealed tonight. You present your concealed firearm from under your coat and shoot your two armed attackers. They drop their guns. The third robber runs away. You call 911.

You holster your firearm and give a statement to the police. Emergency Medical Service transports your two attackers to the hospital. One died and the second remains in critical condition. Police are searching for their accomplice.

Many of the residents in your neighborhood are Chinese immigrants. You are one of the few who carries a gun.You give the police the video from your home’s doorbell camera. You are not charged with a crime.

Ben, what did our defender do to save his life?

Ben- Tactical patience. Watch movies and want to draw against a drawn gun.

Rob- How common is an attack like this one?

Ben- About 40 percent of attacks happen near our home. We feel safe there and most people let down their guard and their awareness when they get close to home.

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like our students to do if they were in a similar situation?

Ben- Try to see it coming. These three guys didn’t just drop out of the sky, they came from somewhere. If you can see it coming, maybe he could have just opened the door to his house and went inside.

Rob- Walk me through all the steps I have to go through before I can present a firearm from under a heavy winter coat.

Ben- Gloves or no Gloves? Clear all the coats and sweaters so that you can get to your firearm, and then make sure it doesn’t get tangled up when you push it out towards the bad guys. Sounds easy, until you get stuck. And then you have the rest of your life to figure it out. Practice with an empty gun is the way you learn all that.

Rob- Anything else?

Ben- That is enough for now. Our second story happened in Spanaway, Washington.

Rob- Second Story- Are you armed at work in the evening? You’re working behind the counter at a cannabis store. It is 9:30 at night when four or five men rush through the door. They have masks on their face and their heads are concealed by the hood of their sweatshirts. Several of them are also armed with guns. They tell everyone to step back as they grab weed from the cases and cash from the cash register. You step back and grab the gun kept in the store. You shoot at the two attackers who have guns. Now, the attackers run from your store. You and the other store employees call 911. You put the gun away.

Police find your attackers at the hospital. Two of them are arrested and charged with first-degree robbery. Police are searching for the other four robbers.

Ben- Tactical Patience again here. Waited until the attention was on something else. Only shot those that needed to be shot, and then put the gun away before police got there. Had everyone call 911.

Rob- As you once asked me, was our defender good, or was he lucky?

Ben- Tactical Patience and see it coming is beginning to be a theme this week. I hope the good guy saw five or six guys ready to attack before they rushed through the door.

Rob- What does a security plan look like for a small “at risk” business?

Ben- Have a safe word so when someone sees something everyone can look and listen. When one person goes to guns, everyone else needs a plan.

Rob- Why is it an advantage to have your concealed carry card if you are only “at risk” at work?

Ben- It gives you credentials in court and with the responding police officers. And it generally gives you some training in your local laws.

Ben- Our third story happened Oceanside, California.

Rob- First this message from my friends at FASTER Colorado.

FASTER Colorado https://i2i.org/faster-training/

Rob- Third story- Do you have a firearm nearby at night? You hear a crashing sound and the sound of people in your home. You roll out of bed and grab your gun. You look into your home and see several intruders. At least one of them has a gun. You shoot at them, and they shoot back. Now, they run from your home. You stay inside your home and call 911. The police were already headed to the area because your neighbors reported gunshots.

You put your gun away when the police arrive. They find one of your attackers at the scene. Emergency Medical Services declares him dead. Police arrest the other five robbers as they drive from the neighborhood. One of them is taken to the hospital with a gunshot wound. This attacker was recently convicted of armed assault and was out on bond awaiting sentencing. Your attackers are held on charges of first degree robbery and felony murder.

You’re not charged.

Ben- Well that turned out better than expected. I’m glad to see the aggression here towards the bad guys. Sometimes patience is the key, other times flat out go for it. Especially when you are outnumbered, the element of surprise can win the fight.

Rob- Does an attack like this happen very often?

Ben- Yes, a lot more than anyone wants to think about. About a quarter of attacks are in our home. About half are at night. Most involve more than one attacker.

Rob- How do new gun owners find out about how to store the firearm they want for armed defense?

Ben- This is one you can ask your local gun shop and get pretty good advice on a quick access safe. They all work. The safe keeps you from having an accidental discharge before you are fully awake and keeps someone from sneaking into your room and just taking it before you have a chance.

Rob- Our defender could have taken a few steps out his bedroom door and been shot dead. How should new gun owners learn to defend themselves at home?

Ben- Lots of classes out there. The simple part is learn about cover and concealment and how to use it and then learn to shoot from it. Last, reprogram yourself, you don’t have to be close. I tell my students more distance is better.

Ben- Our fourth story took place in Ferndale, California.

Rob- Fourth story- Are you armed as you arrive home late at night? You are driving up to your home at about 9:15 at night. You notice that your door is open and that things are out of place. You see a stranger in your home. You draw your firearm and tell the young man to put his hands up. You call 911.

Police arrive and convince you to holster your gun. The officers arrest your intruder. He is charged with first degree burglary. Officers said you did a very good job..for a 74 year old woman.

Tag- No shots fired

Ben- I’m glad she had her gun on her and she didn’t have to fire it! That is a win win. These are the best outcomes; no one got hurt, the good guy or the bad guy, and the criminal was arrested.

Rob- What should we do if we come home late at night and find someone inside our home?

Ben- Alarm systems are great. They can alert you before you get home and most have cameras now, you could look inside your house without going in.

Rob- What do you do if you spot someone?

Ben- If at all possible, call the police and park your car down the street, leave it running and locked. Then wait for the police and be a good witness.

Rob- How hard is it to hold someone at gunpoint?

Ben- It can get really tiring really fast. And what are you going to do if that person doesn’t want to obey you anymore?

Rob- Is there anything else you’d like us to do if this happened to us?

Ben- Try not to enter the house. When this homeowner went through the front door she cornered our criminal in the house. This guy decided not to fight, but when you corner an animal they tend to fight. If you can, then give the bad guy the chance to leave.Exit-

Rob- that wraps up this episode. Ben, thank you for helping us again. Where can we learn more about you?

Ben- I live in San Antonio, and most of my classes are in central Texas where I teach armed self-defense and church security. Check my schedule and sign up for my classes at Modern Self Protection.com. You can also subscribe to my weekly podcast called Modern Self-Protection.

Rob- After you look at Ben articles, watch his videos, and subscribe to his podcast, then please leave us a message on the podcast web page or on MeWe.

Rob- This show is part of the Self-defense radio network. Find more pro-freedom podcasts at sdrn.us

I’m Rob Morse. We’ll be back next week with more Self-Defense Gun Stories.

~_~_

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